[in response to Ted Anderson <ota+@transarc.com>, who wondered why cypherpunks are so unanimous in denouncing FV, when we are usually at each other's throats.] Most of the pile-on can be attributed to the fact that FV does _not_ really see encryption as part of the solution. Other than bits of lip service here and there in technical groups, they actively denounce it when they don't think anyone who knows better is watching (I've seen it with my own eyes at banking conferences, etc.) Their extremely supercilious attitude doesn't help either. The fact that their commerce model is skewed towards long-settlement, non-anonymous transactions of extremely soft goods makes them unsympathetic -- although, say, the Digicash people are just as condescending and certainly _more_ difficult to deal with on a business level, they have a product that is more applicable to transactions cypherpunks are generally concerned with, so they get pile-ons that are maybe half this size, and usually have some defenders. Also, clearly, Digicash and other vendors are involved in producing cryptographic products, whereas FV is actively involved in spreading FUD about the abilities of crypto products in general... this is sort of like advocating cat torture on rec.pets.cats and expressing amazement at the negative response. This is not to say that there isn't a problem with the current state of operating systems, especially PC operating systems, or to say that crypto is magic dust you can sprinkle & make things secure but I think there's a general belief here that the ultimate solution to these problems has a substantial role for cryptography, and that cryptography can be used even today to reduce risk to acceptable levels in consumer financial transactions. FV does _not_ believe either of these things, although I'm sure NB will pay some lip-services on the "eventually" score. ------ ------ Douglas Barnes "The tighter you close your fist, Governor Tarkin, cman@communities.com the more systems will slip through your fingers." cman@best.com --Princess Leia