We have met the enemy, and it is not the system. Responding to msg by jdd@aiki.demon.co.uk (the real Jim Dixon): Regardless of how this discussion began originally, the only part that I was commenting on had to do with John's remark that since governments & societies are both beastly, composed of people of that sort of character, what is it that we think we are going to do if the governing system of operations is overthrown? From this I read: what difference does it make if the present system (the best in the world) is removed, since the objections to it are not also resolved by that action, seeing as how the character of its parts (the people) remains the same; and what is thereby left, if it is successfully un-done? (anticipation: more of the same, but worse, and more difficult for the individual to deal with the consequences)? This was said in the context of a discussion of systems, with reference to what the system which we are governed by (controlled) offers, and how this compares to the feasibility & success of systems per se to accomplish desired ends. It is true that systems are of different kinds & types: from the non-conscious physical which existed prior to the presence of humans on the planet, to fully conscious, reasoned plans of action (as you said: designed). A family may be conceived (by some people) as a system of operations and sometimes it functions that way, although lately they seem to be mostly dis-functional. Families are started whether anyone is fully self-aware, or in control of, their nature; it's usually the result of other motivations unrelated to wanting to control mankind so that it can be morally improved and will function cooperatively as a harmonious whole. But a system designed for the purpose of corralling the disparate energies of a large group of diverse individuals (who are not necessarily in the family) cannot (should not) merely "bumble along" in a mindless sort of way, supposing that everyone is going to agree to and abide by every decree which is delivered to them, for the satisfaction of a purpose which they may not fully appreciate. Human beings are pretty adaptable, but if the governors blithely promulgate measures for living which grates on the sensibilties of the constituency, this is the time when surprising aspects of 'human nature' rears a heretofore invisible head. This is when they begin to 'raise hell'. This is when you realize that it would have been better for someone to know a little more about the facts & the truth & the real nature of mental beings, so that these problems could have been prevented (but nooooooooooooo, there have to be loud, angry debates and arguments and fights and wars, etc.) Apparently, SomeBody didn't know what to expect, didn't plan on it, or didn't care. I don't just propose that a person exercise, develop, and use their own judgement: I recommend it. One may be caught in a system which they were just born into and seems to be 'just there'. But exceptional people, like Thomas Aquinas, might decide to devote their life to reason and seek to know what lies beyond the immediate given. A system is useful for coordinating efforts towards a particular goal, if all of those who participate in the activities are rewarded by the results. Whether it was there when you first became conscious of being alive or whether it is a recently bright idea, if it does not bring satisfactory results & returns, what could it make sense to suffer it? You may not have a choice initially about the system within which you find yourself, but you will be led to the felt need to make alternative choices by your unhappiness with it; you will have to decide what to do about it - stay or go, improve or tear down? You will have to think about what you depend upon (or whom) for the realization of your requirements or desires (something the Bengalis realized subconsciously), and you will have to take a measure of your happiness/disatisfaction and try to determine what will work better. Covertly or otherwise. Blanc I really don't mean to prolong a discussion which lies so far away from the list topics; I do think, however, that there are reasons for the way things are & the way things work, and the better grasp that one has of these reasons, the better that one can compute regarding the right actions to take or the judgements which one will bring to bear upon the actions of others as they affect oneself.