Government and Repression
Rishab Aiyer Ghosh writes ind!
I'm amazed at the way some of you keep screaming about the violence of governments. Maybe you need to experience some _real_ repression.
I disagree: In the U. S. we have real repression. Current real total taxation is approx. 45%. I believe the serfs of Europe only paid a small amount above 1/12 of their production to their lords. That's a little in excess of 8.3% We revolted against English rule for taxation that was tiny compared to current burden. Also, we are currently starving out Iraq, Cuba, & Haiti with embargoes as well as doing other atrocities. Our State is currently systematically ending our freedoms & is developing Hell weapons in Black Labs for domestic use. To say that we're ok because other oppressors are worse than ours is slave talk. PUSH EM BACK! PUSH EM BACK! WWWAAAYYY BBBAAACCCK! BBBEEEAAATTTT STATE! Gary Jeffers
In article <9408311821.AA03287@toad.com>, Gary Jeffers <CCGARY@MIZZOU1.missouri.edu> wrote:
Rishab Aiyer Ghosh writes ind!
I'm amazed at the way some of you keep screaming about the violence of governments. Maybe you need to experience some _real_ repression.
I disagree: In the U. S. we have real repression. Current real total taxation is approx. 45%. I believe the serfs of Europe only paid a small amount above 1/12 of their production to their lords. That's a little in excess of 8.3% We revolted against English rule for taxation that was tiny compared to current burden.
More to the point, the United States has the highest percentage of its population in prisons (according to Amnesty International statistics). Enough to swing an election. That's compared to the entire world, and this was the case before the USSR dissolved. The only country ahead of us then was South Africa, and we passed them -- before their government changed. This *is* a country under heavy oppression -- it's just arranged so that it's next to invisible to the people who aren't in prison or don't know anybody there. We're also trained to think that we're living in a dangerous time by the mass media, while statistics simply don't bear this out. People are regularly prosecuted multiple times for the same offense; The mumbo-jumbo of "different sovereigns" doesn't change this fact. Property is regularly confiscated without due process: due process must be followed to retrieve said property. Even without a conviction. Under the new Crime Law, people can be hauled off and tested for HIV infection merely by being accused of a sex crime. If you don't call this real violence, I don't what you call it -- does it matter if the victims are anonymously disappeared or if others know that they're in prison? Nobody seems to care because Cop Shows tell everyone that it's all for our own good. Thank you sir, may I have another. (Sorry for the rant.) -- L. Todd Masco | "Which part of 'shall not be infringed' didn't cactus@bb.com | you understand?"
L. Todd Masco writes
More to the point, the United States has the highest percentage of its population in prisons (according to Amnesty International statistics). Enough to swing an election.
To put this proper perspective you should remember that the US has the most pleasant prisons in the world. In most of the world, indiscipline and bad behavior in the prison will get you beaten, unofficially in Australia, officially in Japan. (Yes, *corporal punishment*, gasp, oh the horror). In much of Africa they do not feed prisoners. If your relatives know where you are and care about you they feed you. If they do not, you starve. The reason for this strange generosity is creative lawyering with the "cruel and unusual punishment provisions" Remember that every time the prison authorities lose a "cruel and unusual punishment" case, their budget automatically increases. Needless to say they have been industriously losing ever more absurd "cruel and unusual punishment" cases. -- --------------------------------------------------------------------- We have the right to defend ourselves and our property, because of the kind of animals that we James A. Donald are. True law derives from this right, not from the arbitrary power of the omnipotent state. jamesd@netcom.com
On Aug 31, 2:15pm, James A. Donald wrote:
To put this proper perspective you should remember that the US has the most pleasant prisons in the world.
On whose reconning?! At the very least, the US is one of the largest users of capital punishment - including being one of the few countries where children can be tried as adults and executed - which sounds very comfortable to me. And let's not forget the rather unpleasant physical and sexual assault statistics which are noticed in prisons worldwide, which includes the USA.
In most of the world, indiscipline and bad behavior in the prison will get you beaten, unofficially in Australia, officially in Japan. (Yes, *corporal punishment*, gasp, oh the horror).
Want to back this up with some reliable references? I am very aware of the criticisms of the Australian prison systems, and would be the first to agree that massive reform is needed. But I have never seen reference to this, and don't believe that it would be possible to supress it in this circumstance. Ian.
On Thu, 1 Sep 1994, Ian Farquhar wrote:
On Aug 31, 2:15pm, James A. Donald wrote:
To put this proper perspective you should remember that the US has the most pleasant prisons in the world.
On whose reconning?! At the very least, the US is one of the largest users of capital punishment...
AH hem, that was prison system not judicual system, which is true; the only people who have a better (and both are free I might add) dental plan are the US senators [!]
- including being one of the few countries where children can be tried as adults and executed - which sounds very comfortable to me.
If someone tries to blow my brains half way across the room I don't care if he's 17 because his birthday was yesterday or 16 because his birthday is day after tomarrow. Play like the big boys--PAY like the big boys.
And let's not forget the rather unpleasant physical and sexual assault statistics which are noticed in prisons worldwide, which includes the USA.
do you have some statistics which says the USA has a significantly higher rate to compensate that free dental plan?
In most of the world, indiscipline and bad behavior in the prison will get you beaten, unofficially in Australia, officially in Japan. (Yes, *corporal punishment*, gasp, oh the horror).
Want to back this up with some reliable references? I am very aware of the criticisms of the Australian prison systems, and would be the first to agree that massive reform is needed. But I have never seen reference to this, and don't believe that it would be possible to supress it in this circumstance.
Ian.
Wouldn't know anything about this.... Saeed Yusuf -- Finger yusuf921@raven.csrv.uidaho.edu for PGP public key 2.6ui GJ/GP -d+ H+ g? au0 a- w+++ v+(?)(*) C++++ U++1/2 N++++ M-- -po+ Y+++ - t++ 5-- j++ R b+++ D+ B--- e+(*) u** h* r+++ y?
On Aug 31, 4:08pm, yusuf921 wrote:
If someone tries to blow my brains half way across the room I don't care if he's 17 because his birthday was yesterday or 16 because his birthday is day after tomarrow. Play like the big boys--PAY like the big boys.
But he doesn't play like the "big boys". For one thing, the kid doesn't enjoy the full rights of an adult in other respects - voting and representation - and so has not had the right to vote draconian and immoral laws (the very laws you want to subject him to) out of existance. Slightly off topic, but I have always felt that the quality of the education system could be IMMENSELY improved by giving kids the vote at age 10 or 12, and thus making the politicians realise that there were political implications in treating the education system as a barely necessary irritation. Of course, you've got to question whether capital punishment is _ever_ justified, and I would argue that it isn't. This is way, way off the topic of cypherpunks, and I don't intend to get into that discussion on this forum. I am very glad to live in a country which has signed international conventions which prohibit it indulging in brutal and callous judicial murder of a person, despite the occasional state government loony who pines for the good old days.
And let's not forget the rather unpleasant physical and sexual assault statistics which are noticed in prisons worldwide, which includes the USA.
do you have some statistics which says the USA has a significantly higher rate to compensate that free dental plan?
I don't believe that it has: from memory it was pretty much average in this regard. My point was that the original poster's statement that the US has the most "pleasant" prisons in the world when this can happen at all is utterly ridiculous. Ian.
participants (5)
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cactus＠bb.com -
Gary Jeffers -
Ian Farquhar -
jamesd＠netcom.com -
yusuf921