Forwarded message:

Date: Fri, 31 Oct 1997 12:40:35 +0000 From: Tim Griffiths <T.G.Griffiths@exeter.ac.uk> Subject: Re: Terrorism is a NON-THREAT (fwd)

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We hear on TV etc people saying "If this draconian measure saves the life of one innocent child its worth the loss of my right to walk in the park, or whatever". This is clearly shit, but can people suggest a sensible measure of when new legistlation is justified?

Is this a trick question, or sumpin'?

If not, then the answer is "the Constitution."

I was trying to start from somewhere more fundamental than the Constitution, but if I understand you, you're saying that an arbitary, allbeit 'self-evident', set of limitations are set down (i.e. the US Constitution) at some point in time and no new laws should be made that contradict this set of rules. By doing this, aren't we putting a dictatorial limit on whatever democracy we come up with? In effect saying "we're all equal under God, and God wrote the Constitution"?

No, that is not the way it works at all. [Geesh] Let's start from the beginning, shall we. Our government does *NOT* start with the Constitution [one spin-doctor approved lie down]. It starts with the Declaration of Independance. It defines those self-evident issues of a democracy we are speaking of. Further, the founding fathers [NOT just the framers of the Constitution; second spin-doctor approved lie down] felt those rights were God given because they were inherent in being a human being, not something like a drivers license you had to prove you were responsible enough for and could be taken away [third spin-doctor lie down]. You got those rights (barring social institutions to the contrary, which are a challenge to overcome for democracies - and we fail miserably) because you breath and shit - period. [fourth spin-doctor lie down] Even my being a pantheist, and hence rejecting the concept of divinity, allow that we have rights which are inherent in our existance (Nature's God, which for me are synonymous). Rights that can only be taken at the pain of death or continued violence [fifth spin-doctor lie down]. That violence abrogates the social contract between myself and others (ie society) because it does not allow me the latitude that is mine by simple existance [sixth spin-doctor lie down]. Allow me to quote the first and part of the second initial paragraphs of that founding document: When in the Course of human Events, it becomes necessary for one People to dissolve the Political bands which have connected them with another, and to assume among the Powers of the Earth, the separate and equal station to which the Laws of Nature and of Nature's God entitle them, a decent respect to the Opinions of Mankind requires that they should declare the causes which impel them to the Separation. We hold these Truths to be self-evident, that all Men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable rights, that among these are Life, Liberty, and the Pursuit of Happiness--That to secure these Rights, Governments are instituted among Men, deriving their just Powers from the Consent of the Governed, that whenever any Form of Government becomes destructive of these Ends, it is the Right of the People to alter or to abolish it, and to institute new Government, laying its foundation on such Principles and organizing its Powers in such Form, as to them shall seem most likely to effect their Safety and Happiness. Prudence, indeed, will dictate that Governments long established should not be changed for light and transient Causes; and accordingly all Experience hath shewn, that Mankind are more disposed to suffer, while evils are sufferable, than to right themselves by abolishing the Forms to which they are accustomed. But when a long train of Abuses and Ursurpations, pursuing invariably the same Object, evinces a Design to reduce them under absolute Despotism, it is their Right, it is their Duty, to throw off such Government, and to provide new Guards for their future Security. *THAT* is the definition of democracy, *NOT* some bullshit definition that a government spin-doctor spews forth in a government spin-doctor institution better known as a school telling you that some ephemeral 'rule-of-law' is the ultimate authority in this country [seventh spin-doctor lie down]. Political oppressors are like the Terminator, you can't reason with them and it will kill you. They're meat-bop (thanks Rudy!) machines with faulty processors. Democracies should be based on cooperation, NOT compromise (ie giving up rights to make sombodies elses job easier). [eighth spin-doctor lie down] Tim and others predict a revolution, while I agree in principal that a social and political revolution and hence an accounting (hopefuly with about another 50 amendments to the Constitution) is coming I disagree that it will or needs to be violent. This ilk of 'patriot' hates so much they have become what they hate - users of violence to get their way and to hell with the consequences. They're simply the next wave of oppressors if we let them. ____________________________________________________________________ | | | The financial policy of the welfare state requires that there | | be no way for the owners of wealth to protect themselves. | | | | -Alan Greenspan- | | | | _____ The Armadillo Group | | ,::////;::-. Austin, Tx. USA | | /:'///// ``::>/|/ http://www.ssz.com/ | | .', |||| `/( e\ | | -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'- Jim Choate | | ravage@ssz.com | | 512-451-7087 | |____________________________________________________________________|