on 03 Oct 1995, Dr. Dimitri Vulis KOTM <dlv@bwalk.dm.com> defecated: .(We have at least one mormon asshole here, attilla, who's obviously pro-GAK) . ------ pro-GAK? either me or the average Utahn? really? no way. other than Salt Lake City area which might be more pro-GAK, which were it not for Temple Square, etc. could be just any other large city with a Mormon MINORITY. the population influx asking to be able to join our safe communities and values has not only changed the balance of power in favour of outsiders, but the outsiders brought their social problems (gangs, drugs, morals, etc.) with them. and maybe willing to trade their freedoms for temporary security. surprised? ask questions before you quote me (or anyone) as to their position on constitutional matters. your innuendos and depravity is unworthy of any educated Western individual, or do you not consider yourself a Western intellectual? maybe you really are only capable of playing the Vodka sotted Russian fool? where is your dancing bear? I think I have more than a few credentials for being anti anything the Feds propose on curbing the Bill of Rights and the Constitution --including more than several visits from the boys in grey trench coats in the early morning, and being arrested and charged by the Feds with both crypto and 'trading with the enemy' --the fear of public disclosure is what stops them from going even to indictment. and, I endured one of their standard forms of pay- back, at a personal price we shall not discuss. a man is considered lucky if he has one true friend when he is down and being kicked by the Feds; I found a virtual army of good people, many outside my immediate ward, who not only did not turn their backs, but actively supported; many not even knowing what the fight was about, let alone understanding it other than not only my rights, but theirs as well, were be trampled upon by the Feds. do you have any friends like that? --to you, that is a loaded question which probably should been framed as '...do you have any friends?' but I shall give you the benefit of the doubt. dimitri (in the diminutive), go sniff a few flowers to counter your rank stench of incivility. go wander the boardwalk as an obscure soul. lighten up; the glass of water we ALL drink from is still at least half-full, not half-empty. sometimes life does give free refills. -- "The only natural criminal class in America, the U.S. Congress" --Mark Twain

In <k2X9uD23w165w@bwalk.dm.com>, on 10/03/96 at 07:35 PM, dlv@bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM) said: .attila <attila@primenet.com> writes: . .> <pro-GAK mor(m)on propaganda skipped .> .> "The only natural criminal class in America, the U.S. Congress" > .> --Mark Twain .Mark Twain had some very negative things to say about your criminal cult. . WRONG, read the entire article. in the balance he was rather positive in his "review" of the Mormons, particularly family life and work ethic. the first part of his rambling was critical more from the very negative attitude to the Mormons in MIssouri at the time Samuel Clemmons was growing up. The three bloody marches in winter with a loss of over 6,000 lifes were less than 10 years history in his childhood. One of our most basic beliefs in the 13 Articles of Faith (in addition to the ten commandments) is that we believe everyone should be allowed to practice the religion of their choice, any religion, as they wish to observe; we only ask the same of them. For instance, when the Catholic Church established a parish in Salt Lake City, they had no meeting place. Brigham Young granted them the free use of the Tabernacle on Temple Square why they were raising money to build their own church. The same was true in St. George; the classic tabernacle at main & tabernacle was used free of charge by the Catholics until they were able to erect their own church, school, etc at 200 N 300W, two blocks down the street from Brigham Young's winter residence. I have never believed we have been persecuted for religion. the work ethic, and the extended 'ward' family, where everyone cooperated on advancing the community --for instance, one family took the responsibility of making soap (nasty job which takes time) for everyone, and so on. This is cooperative "husbandry"/industry, and it was beneficial to everyone; there are numerous others. even today, our wards are organized so individual families have a "skill" for the ward should we find ourselves isolated in a wall street disaster, a natural disaster, or whatever. do you have 3 years of food storage? almost 4,000 lbs. and 9,000 gallons of drinking water for 3 years for a family of 5? --that's 72,000 lbs (36 tonnes!... ) almost 10,000 cu. ft. we work and we share. which means prosperity, which means economic success, which usually means stable, cohesive politics. and this too often creates not only jealousy and hostility from our non-Mormon neighbors, but fear. therefore, the basest of arguments and untruths are used against us to justify the quick annihilation of the "offenders in our midst." but what inflames the anti-mormon passions the most is the paid clergy of other organized religions whose employment is the paid ministry to their flock. Mormons threaten their jobs; the mormons have no paid ministry; it is all part of our "callings" to do the Lord's work. The 40,000 young men and women who leave MTC in Provo, and other training centers, each graduation to scatter to every country in the world, have earned their *own* money to support themselves on their two year missions. these young men and women return with unbelievably positive attitudes and the satisfaction they earned the money themselves --which took planning and perseverance. Dimitri, try reading a balanced analysis of the LDS faith, the teachings, and their accomplishments before you jump off and prove your ignorance and bigotry... it will not harm you, and you might be surprised at what you learn, particularly "forgiving those who trespass against us." -no retaliation. remember, all members are missionaries in a way; noone will *ask* you to join. all we do is offer you the opportunity to *investigate* our beliefs and our community. After *you* study the materials and ask questions, it is up to you to get on your knees and ask the Lord if you should join. We neither ask nor tell you you will die an agonizing death, again and again in eternity, if you do not join. everyone is there own free agent, and we can not influence your "free agency" --we will not pursue you if your prayers are not answered; but we will still be you friend, and our offer to participate in our services and our activities is still extended. For instance, I will never attack you with hate speech, and even my sarcasm is questionable, despite the fun a good play on words provides; you could probably snitch me off to my bishop and I would likely face a church council. As a high priest, that is a serious matter. something else you probably do not know: we NEVER pass the plate at any service. tithing is a private matter. -- "I don't make jokes. I just watch the government and report the facts." --Will Rogers

attila <attila@primenet.com> writes: ...

Dimitri, try reading a balanced analysis of the LDS faith, the teachings, and their accomplishments before you jump off and prove your ignorance and bigotry...

... Well - I have a very different opinion of all religions in general and your criminal cult in particular, and I think we'll just have to agree to disagree. We have nothing to gain by debating the virtues of LDS any further - and if we did, we should do it on alt.religion.mormon or on soc.religion.mormon moderated, not on this mailing list. There's an asshole named Timmy May who started this flame thread, and many others like it. Timmy has nothing to contribute to the cryptography discussions, so he entertains himself by attacking various people and their religious views and watching the resulting flame wars. I suggest that in the future we all ignore Timmy's flame bait. Just killfile the asshole. --- Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps

In <v03007808ae7af10d0afb@[207.167.93.63]>, on 10/04/96 at 09:03 AM, "Timothy C. May" <tcmay@got.net> said: .Personally, I find Mormonism to be a good "survival meme." .Self-preparedness, food storage, self-reliance, etc., are all counter to the ."I'll just let government take care of me" meme which is so common in the .rest of society. I don't cotton to supernatural explanations of the world, .though, so I've never been in involved in any religion (past age 11). . dont worry, there has never been a book burning in Utah --even when it was fashionable in the East for almost two centuries. anyone who advocates book burning in Utah is not LDS. the LDS church does not disseminate a list of proscribed literature, and does not actually 'preach' anything other than what we consider 'acceptable' morality. everyone has their own "free agency" and if they are practicing, certainly understand what those standards mean. personally, I see nothing wrong with nudity, but R pictures have starting to approach what was X and is now NC-17 (under 16) --and NC-17 now includes almost what was XXX. the Church does not dictate, nor actually moralize --each individual is left with their own responsibility and the impending review of their mortal life. .I suppose I'm chagrinned that a thread I named, "Utah as a Religious Police .State," has been followed by *so many* religious flames, pro- and con- .Mormonism. (I use Mormonism as shorthand for LDS...sosumi.) . tim, at the end (instead of here where it probably belongs) is some extended food for thought on how a corrupt Fed regulates thought and action --starting in the 1800s, proving that the party in power, even in a supposed democratic republic, still dictates what you will read, think, and practice. the more I study (what is now --going on since I started school in 1945), the more cynical I become of human nature and the abuse men have permitted from whatever government extant. if you think about it, the actions against the LDS in the 1800s is very little different than the power hungry, corrupt Feds of today who are attacking the Bill of Rights as obsolete in the face of todays terrorism (is it so different from any before except it is faster and deadlier?). In our (LDS) terms I refer to the Feds as the Gadianton robbers who were the insidious 'mafia' which usurped government power under the guise of 'law and order' in a period of the book of Mormon... --or even the Pharisees (the temple money changers) of Jesus' time. The same concept of the Pharasees is still practiced by the Jewish faith today. (another comment on today's pharisee's --a truly amazing eye opener, towards the end). .My point was not to attack Mormonism, esp. the religious beliefs. . No, I sure it was not --but you may have been the only one! <g> .Personally, .I think cults are useful in keeping people off the streets (better than .police-enforced curfews). I was mainly challenging Attila's glowing opinion .of how his community "enforces curfews big time." . Frankly, we do not wish curfews, and there never were curfews before the immense immigration into the area, mostly from So. CA, over the last 15 years which changed St. George from the small town of less than the 5,000 in 1970 when I left St. George, to the almost 30,000 when I came home within the last year. I chose not to actually return to St. George, where a two lane main drag had been changed from a two lane, tree line "road" to a glitzed 4 lanes plus center lane boulevard, instead moving North to the rural high desert (we have no legislated curfew). St. George today is not Mormon dominated politics, but the bulk of the immigrants expected to find, and maintain, that small town innocence --which they have more or less done. However, these people, Mormons (some good, some inactive) and non-Mormans alike, unfortunately brought with them the alien cultural they were trying to escape: bored children without super- vision, a junk food way of life, dual-income families, and children feeling aliented and lost in a world they do not understand --not St. George, but the world itself and its television age. It was in this atmosphere the "non-homogenous" but somewhat like thinking apparently demanded the permanent curfew --there is absolutely nothing to do by that time, and milling around what passes for a mall here (grocery store) was/is not considered acceptable. Secondly, St. George seems to attract an influx of 3-5,000 high school students at Spring break (it is very warm by that time, despite the 3,000 ft alt) --but why? there is nothing here. they wanted beer, but they could not legally buy beer, or rent a hotel room under 18 --does not make sense. so they had a milling, loose crowd of "foreign" teenagers. --just like Sonny Bono, as mayor of Palm Springs, found himself with every year: illegal drinking, convertibles with even pre-pubescent girls standing naked on the trunk decks, etc. --don't say "where? where? where!?! well, that prompted the curfew, but they found it also maintained the semblance of peacful family oriented community among the lost and alienated families --so it is apparently here to stay. other than the fact we are telling tparents who do not wish to manage their children they must keep them home or take them somewhere, what does the law do? .Telling people when they .can be on public streets and when they cannot is no different than telling .them what they can read and what they cannot. . that was my initial reaction -you wouldn't tell me that! but consider the right of society to legislate and regulate in the common good, despite both my and your abhorence of law in an of itself. it is an effective means of forcing parents who do not seem to care, or parents who wish to shift their responsibilities to social workers who are not available, they have a responsibility. what happens to the violators --few are arrested, they are asked to go home. there is no great wild-west roundup of teenaged cattle! any who resist or commit minor vandalism are taken to the center --but, unlike every other city I have seen, they do not mix the 'miscreants' with the juvenile delinquents, repeat offenders, and the teenagers who are obviously on their way to the dead end. what is the penalty? call their parents for a ride home. they are not fingerprinted and mugged, etc. very few are required to even see a social worker. consistent repeat offenders eventually enter the system --as they should. .I still urge Attila to rethink his enthusiastic support of state-enforced .curfews, or state-imposed bans on alcohol (not that I recall him supporting .this particular law), etc. actually, the curfew laws are local laws, and I reluctantly decided to support curfew laws for minors after looking at the means and results --it does provide an early point of intercepting behavioral patterns with the *parent* being the judge and warder, and hopefully give those parents a wakeup call they need to guide their children as they are fast approaching adulthood where they are fully accountable. alcohol is available at any large grocery store; it has not been banned to any extent since prohibition, but not necessarily avail- able in rural areas. in Salt Lake City and the more heavily populated north, there are bars. prior to about 15 years ago, you could brown bag your own hard liquor to a restaurant; today restaurants have full permits. In St. George there actually is a bar! --you do need to *know* where to find it (I was told a few weeks ago the area, but I could care less). I do not think you can prohibit anything from adults --drugs, prescription or recreational, included --no matter how destructive. all 18 of the US code provides is a 'illegalization' of a criminal class with enormous financial power --and, worse, a corrupt and lawless enforcement agency with an equally corrupt and evil class of attorneys to protect both the distributors and the corrupt opponents --modern, legal, efficient predatation on a class. legalize drugs, etc. and the ATF, the DEA, and a host of allied agencies which cause billions of dollars per year and provide nothing in return will be totally unnecessary (except to snoop for paranoid Bubba...) --even Bubba could enjoy his five lines a day and not be in defiance of our legal system! and think of the destruction of the narco-terrorist gangs; --there would be no money, power, or illicit prestige; no enormous slush funds to put Uzis in the hands of an 8 year old, or bribe cops and politicians. our urban decay and combat zones would be boring --some might find it necessary to even learn enough to be able to watch a robomachine do the work! this is beginning to sound like utopia. so why do we not legalize dope? simple: George Bush's income stream would dry up along with the literally thousands of other supposedly law-abiding politicians who are on the gravy train! take away the illicit profits for Congress and we might even an honest reformer or two in Washington. certainly we are justified in ranting against any abridgement of our right to freely (and privately) communicate, freedom of *peaceful* assembly, a truly free press --certainly not the New World Order blinded press printing the official line dictated by political/economic Boss Tweeds of what is effectively an oligarchy --they do not possess common principles sufficient to even be called 'national socialists' (fascists). or, there is a government like Washington where they are trying to, and may anyway, implement President Hillary's "It takes a Global Village" so the state can dictate everything and raise a new generation of robots in the mold of their revisionist history which we are now suffering by attrition.... If Bubba and the President are reelected with a Democratic Congress, we will not recognize our once almost free country in the space of a few short years. Bubba is a space cadet political wonder -the front man, wandering in his drug induced sub-space; Hillary is a the intelligent, crafty, 60s idealist socialist liberal --dedicated and determined to impose her order at whatever expense of liberty necessary. or, Hillary's social order which plays directly into the hands of the NWO, the very rich, old family elitists. first the cradle to the grave thought control welfare state; and entire amorphous classes of thoughtless drones --then comes the changes for the survival of the human race: the total disenfranchisement of major components of the underclass, and the establishment of an effec- tively feudal structure with a serf labor pool. or, the disturbing trend of an almost exponentially increasing prisoner class who are being shifted to prisons run by defense contractors who are permitted to "employ" them at minimum wage; paying WH, FUTA, FICA, and all that good stuff; and taking all but chump change for their room and board. Today that decuction does not cover their actual confinement, but we can obviously rest assured the defense contractors will take the burden off the tax- payers (at what cost human suffering) *and* make a profit! in other words, encouraging the breakdown of the classic American family actually benefits the NWO by providing a lawless element which can be imprisoned for profit, and reduce the birth rate simultaneously --what a benefit! .I still urge Attila to rethink his enthusiastic support of state-enforced .curfews, or state-imposed bans on alcohol (not that I recall him supporting .this particular law), etc. .This is the last thing I'll say on Mormonism. Whether some subset of settlers .committed some set of crimes in Mountain Meadows is a footnote in .history--who really cares about such anomalies? I care more about the .present. some historical thought on why lack of religious freedom: actually, when you look back in history, what was it that just just lit the fires in Washington which provoked the Feds to even legislate laws which contravened the whole concept of what the Constitution stands for --laws which literally dissolve the Church a legal entity, confiscated Church property in excess of $50,000 [not that much by 1875], revoked woman's suffrage in Utah (Wyoming (which is heavily, though not predominantly Mormon, at that time enacted woman's suffrage first in the nation a few months before Utah), disenfranchised all officials of the Church, and any members practicing polygamy? other than the fact a number of territorial governors after the first one sent from Washington with Johnson's Army (trapped at Fort Bridger) who was gracious and therefore replaced by some pretty vicious and greedy slimeballs who transmitted messages to a very distant Washington of "rebellion" by armed and dangerous outlaws, what was it? utah was a land no-one, including many of Brigham Young's followers wanted, but they had transformed a very inhospitable land into a virtual land of plenty. even though Brigham Young was replaced as governor in 1858 by the territorial governors from Washington, the Church was both monolithic and defensive --understandably. The Pharisees are alive and well today: in my previous ward in California, the LDS chapel was "leased" gratis, other than janitorial fees, (including totally rearranging our own worship schedules to accommodate) to one Jewish temple's overflow for the Rosh Hosana (sp?) and Yom Kipper holidays. their advance guard 'required' six hours to set up and I was still in our ward offices (member of the bishopric) at the start... they litterally set up two rows of _money changing_ tables at the entrance (tables you must pass between); they had sold tickets of admission; and the seats in the chapel were sold like opera tickets: priced according to location. OK, that's their deal, I thought --so what? but curiosity got the better of me, and I asked one of their people who appeared to be approachable about the seating --it was he who informed me of the price schedule --the front area seating was $10,000 per seat --anything moving into our multicultural hall (gym, etc.) which has acoustical 'curtains' between the chapel was still >$500! I did not have the courage to ask what it cost to sit upon the dias! .--Tim ."The government announcement is disastrous," said Jim Bidzos,.."We warned IBM .that the National Security Agency would try to twist their technology." [NYT, .1996-10-02] .We got computers, we're tapping phone lines, I know that that ain't allowed. .---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---- .Timothy C. May | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money, .tcmay@got.net 408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero .W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA | knowledge, reputations, information markets, .Higher Power: 2^1,257,787-1 | black markets, collapse of governments. ."National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway." -- "I don't make jokes. I just watch the government and report the facts." --Will Rogers

The resent the word cult being used to describe my religions. While I don't think it is good to make fun of even one's own religion I really think that it is in bad taste to knock another's religion. Time and bandwidth have been wasted on more than one occasion with your interjecting your personal views about other peoples religions only to find that other people do not view their faiths academically. I think that all religion should be kept off this list . I did not become a member to prostelytise people on this list and did not expect other people to start agitating mormons or moslems or Jews or other faiths. I mind my p's&q's but I don't have and certainly will sit idly by when someone makes my people look bad. Any trouble that you have made starting this thread was done by you so don't complain. Inciderntally, I emailed tilly a great source for soy meats for all those that have emailed me to say that they are returning to the church. On Fri, 4 Oct 1996, Timothy C. May wrote:

I suppose I'm chagrinned that a thread I named, "Utah as a Religious Police State," has been followed by *so many* religious flames, pro- and con- Mormonism. (I use Mormonism as shorthand for LDS...sosumi.)

My point was not to attack Mormonism, esp. the religious beliefs. Personally, I think cults are useful in keeping people off the streets (better than police-enforced curfews). I was mainly challenging Attila's glowing opinion of how his community "enforces curfews big time." Telling people when they can be on public streets and when they cannot is no different than telling them what they can read and what they cannot.

("Telling them" in the sense of backing it up with the power of the state. For example, the LDS church is perfectly free to "tell" its members not to read the books of, say, Juanita Brooks. However, this may not be enforced by the government or its police and court arms, so long as Utah is part of these United States. Period.)

Personally, I find Mormonism to be a good "survival meme." Self-preparedness, food storage, self-reliance, etc., are all counter to the "I'll just let government take care of me" meme which is so common in the rest of society. I don't cotton to supernatural explanations of the world, though, so I've never been in involved in any religion (past age 11).

This is the last thing I'll say on Mormonism. Whether some subset of settlers committed some set of crimes in Mountain Meadows is a footnote in history--who really cares about such anomalies? I care more about the present.

I still urge Attila to rethink his enthusiastic support of state-enforced curfews, or state-imposed bans on alcohol (not that I recall him supporting this particular law), etc.

--Tim

"The government announcement is disastrous," said Jim Bidzos,.."We warned IBM that the National Security Agency would try to twist their technology." [NYT, 1996-10-02] We got computers, we're tapping phone lines, I know that that ain't allowed. ---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---- Timothy C. May | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money, tcmay@got.net 408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA | knowledge, reputations, information markets, Higher Power: 2^1,257,787-1 | black markets, collapse of governments. "National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."

(Attila's long post deleted to save space, and to keep me from commenting on sections.) This was one of the most thought-provoking pieces I've read. I can't say I'm in favor of curfews, but Attila presented some thought-provoking points, consistent with my own "best is often the enemy of the good" points. I doubt I'm ready to move to St. George, Utah, attractive as it sounds in some ways. (Nevada is probably just as attractive, and California even more so, for me. I drove from Las Vegas to Reno, but gave up in the vaste nothingness, and cut over through Tioga Pass and Yosemite to my area...boy, was I happy to be back in California. For all of its oddnesses and problems, it is truly an amazing place. Though I dislike some things about it, I always come back.) As to Moroni's objection to my characterization of LDS/Mormonism as a "cult," I refer to _all_ religions this way. Catholocism, Judaism, Protestantism, Mormonism, Buddhism, they are all roughly the same to me. If you are offended, this is your problem. I take no position on which of these belief systems are valid and which are not. --Tim "The government announcement is disastrous," said Jim Bidzos,.."We warned IBM that the National Security Agency would try to twist their technology." [NYT, 1996-10-02] We got computers, we're tapping phone lines, I know that that ain't allowed. ---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---- Timothy C. May | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money, tcmay@got.net 408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA | knowledge, reputations, information markets, Higher Power: 2^1,257,787-1 | black markets, collapse of governments. "National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."