Re: poverty traps (Re: Sa
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Harka <harka@nycmetro.com> wrote:
That may indeed work for some people, but the argument of "self-discipline and sacrifice" usually goes overboard once people _other than yourself_ are severely affected by that. "Sorry hun, you can't have a new winter-coat. Mommy has to save enough money so that she can choose the people she works for. And no...no christmas this year either".
-=> Quoting In:aba@dcs.ex.ac.uk to Harka <=- In> That is indeed a sad financial state to be in. I have trouble In> believing it though. [examples of well-fares deleted] In> So if any kids are being deprived of winter clothes or In> whatever, it's not because their parents don't have enough In> money, it's because their parents are stupid, or selfish. Although my statement was deliberately somewhat exaggerated, it is not that far from reality for quite a few people I know. A real-life example: A single (divorced) mother, 4 kids (3-12 years), working full-time and making in theory $42 000/year. After taxes that comes down to $2000 cash per month. In order for her to be able to work her two youngest kids go to a day-care-center. Wham! $1000 per month (hiring a baby-sitter would amount to even more). Her apartment costs $800/month excluding utilities. That leaves $200 (+ $800 she gets in child-support) per month for _five_ people to live on (clothes, food, utilities, school-books, gas for the car, etc.etc.) One thousand dollars per month for five people!! And that in New York City! She is not entitled to any support such as free school-meals for the kids etc., because she "makes too much money" (_before_ taxes, of course!) What efforts has she made to make "herself more marketable"? She has been working ever since the age of 16, went 8 years to College (paid by herself and paying rent at the same time) and now has a Masters Degree in teaching. What has it brought her? Bill-collectors calling every day! She made a calculation and (confirming your statement) came to the conclusion, that she indeed would have _more_ money by not working at all and simply going on welfare. However, that is not a choice she wants to make. Is she to be called "stupid" and "selfish" because she's poor despite her efforts??? I don't think so. She, btw., is not the only person I know struggeling in this manner from one month into the next, barely being able to even catch up on bills. Neither does she have a free choice of employers. There is only one board of education in the City. Changing for a private school would come with (at least a temporary) pay-cut, that she obviously can't afford. Therefore: Since she isn't the only person I can think of, who is in such a position, the argument formerly known as "If 'ya don't like the company-policy [employing GAK/CAK] just leave and work for somebody else" may now be called: "Ad Acta". Ciao Harka /*************************************************************/ /* E-mail: harka(at)nycmetro.com (PGP-encrypted mail pref'd) */ /* PGP public key available upon request. [KeyID: 04174301] */ /* F-print: FD E4 F8 6D C1 6A 44 F5 28 9C 40 6E B8 94 78 E8 */ /*<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>*/ /* May there be peace in this world, may all anger dissolve */ /* and may all living beings find the way to happiness... */ /*************************************************************/ ... Don't you hate it when the pessimists are right all the time? -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: 2.6.2 iQEVAgUBNFJRbDltEBIEF0MBAQFAGgf+PoTI/+900uSojxfC/xKFPsEnco5fp+df Etn4uJ23l9ZB7QczEuP96JMo+5vmFXc9Tabh5nMkNCRrA3QaAwxFh2+Boc8RvzAv SBLbjeqnCkvca1EgfOO+eZKv/YcRAZ47JH/w6/g/ggSx3vyM9quFeOqGzljG21au JdjFhtcdvWP2R79ldGnjswjjuT8MntSGwfx+wiKVQtt6YcK81/OKCBFMaZ8o7JTr gzYRzv6y+622Z97rUItmdEwQtDqq8k9wtRfmV1xPloqAHJ65VcJ3HI1LoItTmase oEWPiy6NBIeyN+Nbn+aK/egOalOHev8nX/LqTPxN3TawmxnESldEsg== =u2Q5 -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- If encryption is outlawed, only outlaws will have encryption...
At 04:09 PM 10/25/97 EDT, harka@nycmetro.com wrote:
A real-life example:
A single (divorced) mother, 4 kids (3-12 years), working full-time and making in theory $42 000/year. After taxes that comes down to $2000 cash per month.
In order for her to be able to work her two youngest kids go to a day-care-center. Wham! $1000 per month (hiring a baby-sitter would amount to even more). Her apartment costs $800/month excluding utilities. That leaves $200 (+ $800 she gets in child-support) per month for _five_ people to live on (clothes, food, utilities, school-books, gas for the car, etc.etc.)
One thousand dollars per month for five people!! And that in New York City! She is not entitled to any support such as free school-meals for the kids etc., because she "makes too much money" (_before_ taxes, of course!)
What efforts has she made to make "herself more marketable"? She has been working ever since the age of 16, went 8 years to College (paid by herself and paying rent at the same time) and now has a Masters Degree in teaching.
What has it brought her? Bill-collectors calling every day!
She made a calculation and (confirming your statement) came to the conclusion, that she indeed would have _more_ money by not working at all and simply going on welfare.
However, that is not a choice she wants to make.
Is she to be called "stupid" and "selfish" because she's poor despite her efforts???
I don't think so. She, btw., is not the only person I know struggeling in this manner from one month into the next, barely being able to even catch up on bills.
Neither does she have a free choice of employers. There is only one board of education in the City. Changing for a private school would come with (at least a temporary) pay-cut, that she obviously can't afford.
This whole sob story makes me want to puke. First of all, there are thousands of cities in the US with a higher wage-to-cost-of-living ratio that socialist cesspool New York City. Anyone stupid enough to volunteer to live in a city with one of the most confiscatory tax policies in the country deserves what they get. I currently live in a 900 square foot, 2-bedroom condo in Vacaville, California, in a not-so-nice part of town. I have to keep paint on hand to cover the gang graffiti that grows in my carport, in 2 years I have personally witnessed 2 gang assaults, (one of which resulted in an individual being medevac'd to a local hospital) and I have good reason to believe that there are some drug dealers moving into my neighborhood. I am currently paying a $67,000 mortgage for the privilege of living here. For the same money, I could purchase a 40 acre woodlot with a stream running through it, and a 4 bedroom house, near Clare, Michigan. Why do I stay here? Mainly so I can be near my wife and son, but I also have a job that I really like, even though it doesn't pay much. Does my financial situation suck? You bet! My finances are in worse shape than those of the woman described above. Do I expect (or deserve) the pity of others? Absolutely not! Do I need some kind of government handout to save me from my pathetic life? Absolutely not! I am where I am at because of choices I have made, and I can make choices that will change my situation for the better. This is the beauty of America. If you are willing to do what it takes (although most people aren't) you can improve ypur lot in life. Jonathan Wienke What part of "the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed" is too hard to understand? (From 2nd Amendment, U.S. Constitution) PGP 2.6.2 RSA Key Fingerprint: 7484 2FB7 7588 ACD1 3A8F 778A 7407 2928 DSS/D-H Key Fingerprint: 3312 6597 8258 9A9E D9FA 4878 C245 D245 EAA7 0DCC Public keys available at pgpkeys.mit.edu. PGP encrypted e-mail preferred. US/Canadian Windows 95/NT or Mac users: Get Eudora Light + PGP 5.0 for free at http://www.eudora.com/eudoralight/ Get PGP 5.0 for free at http://bs.mit.edu:8001/pgp-form.html Non-US PGP 5.0 sources: http://www.ifi.uio.no/pgp/ http://www.heise.de/ct/pgpCA/download.shtml ftp://ftp.pca.dfn.de/pub/pgp/V5.0/ ftp://ftp.fu-berlin.de/pub/pc/win95/pgp ftp://ftp.fu-berlin.de/pub/mac/pgp http://www.shopmiami.com/utopia.hacktic.nl/pub/replay/pub/pgp/pgp50/win/ RSA export-o-matic: print pack"C*",split/\D+/,`echo "16iII*o\U@{$/=$z;[(pop,pop,unpack"H*",<> )]}\EsMsKsN0[lN*1lK[d2%Sa2/d0<X+d*lMLa^*lN%0]dsXx++lMlN/dsM0<J]dsJxp"|dc` Stupidity is the one arena of of human achievement where most people fulfill their potential.
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- In <199710252037.PAA30248@einstein.ssz.com>, on 10/25/97 at 04:09 PM, harka@nycmetro.com said:
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Harka <harka@nycmetro.com> wrote:
That may indeed work for some people, but the argument of "self-discipline and sacrifice" usually goes overboard once people _other than yourself_ are severely affected by that. "Sorry hun, you can't have a new winter-coat. Mommy has to save enough money so that she can choose the people she works for. And no...no christmas this year either".
-=> Quoting In:aba@dcs.ex.ac.uk to Harka <=-
In> That is indeed a sad financial state to be in. I have trouble In> believing it though.
[examples of well-fares deleted]
In> So if any kids are being deprived of winter clothes or In> whatever, it's not because their parents don't have enough In> money, it's because their parents are stupid, or selfish.
Although my statement was deliberately somewhat exaggerated, it is not that far from reality for quite a few people I know.
A real-life example:
A single (divorced) mother, 4 kids (3-12 years), working full-time and making in theory $42 000/year. After taxes that comes down to $2000 cash per month.
CLUE #1: The reason she is divorced with 4 kids is because she made the CHOICES in life that put her there!
In order for her to be able to work her two youngest kids go to a day-care-center. Wham! $1000 per month (hiring a baby-sitter would amount to even more). Her apartment costs $800/month excluding utilities. That leaves $200 (+ $800 she gets in child-support) per month for _five_ people to live on (clothes, food, utilities, school-books, gas for the car, etc.etc.)
One thousand dollars per month for five people!! And that in New York City!
CLUE #2: If she can't afford to live in New York City then MOVE!!
She is not entitled to any support such as free school-meals for the kids etc., because she "makes too much money" (_before_ taxes, of course!)
CLUE #3: She is not "entitled" to anything regardless of what she makes.
What efforts has she made to make "herself more marketable"? She has been working ever since the age of 16, went 8 years to College (paid by herself and paying rent at the same time) and now has a Masters Degree in teaching.
CLUE #4: She made a bad choice of getting a Masters Degree in teaching. She just as well could have spent the 8 yrs becoming a lawer. She made the CHOICE to become a teacher, that's here problem not ours.
What has it brought her? Bill-collectors calling every day!
CLUE #5: She is living above her means. Move to a cheaper apartment, get a better paying job in Industry, spend less on "luxury items", ...ect
She made a calculation and (confirming your statement) came to the conclusion, that she indeed would have _more_ money by not working at all and simply going on welfare.
However, that is not a choice she wants to make.
Is she to be called "stupid" and "selfish" because she's poor despite her efforts???
CLUE #6: She has made CHOICES in her life that has brought her to where she is today. Now she needs to make another choice of wether she want's to stay there or improve he lot in life. It is up to her to do so, not her boss, not the school she works for, and not the government.
I don't think so. She, btw., is not the only person I know struggeling in this manner from one month into the next, barely being able to even catch up on bills.
And if you bother to look at how and why they are there you would see that it is of their own making.
Neither does she have a free choice of employers. There is only one board of education in the City. Changing for a private school would come with (at least a temporary) pay-cut, that she obviously can't afford.
Of course she has free choice of employers. She just has to be willing to make them.
Therefore:
Since she isn't the only person I can think of, who is in such a position, the argument formerly known as "If 'ya don't like the company-policy [employing GAK/CAK] just leave and work for somebody else" may now be called: "Ad Acta".
Therefore: This is yet another case of one being unwilling of taking the RESPONSIBILITY for their actions. She put herself there and she is the only one who can get herself out. - -- - --------------------------------------------------------------- William H. Geiger III http://www.amaranth.com/~whgiii Geiger Consulting Cooking With Warp 4.0 Author of E-Secure - PGP Front End for MR/2 Ice PGP & MR/2 the only way for secure e-mail. OS/2 PGP 2.6.3a at: http://www.amaranth.com/~whgiii/pgpmr2.html - --------------------------------------------------------------- -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: 2.6.3a Charset: cp850 Comment: Registered_User_E-Secure_v1.1b1_ES000000 iQCVAwUBNFNr4o9Co1n+aLhhAQH9qQP/d/SJwtlJEm/y9iyEOR7H5YwMEQ2V78Xl NgRIjO1/ndgJ25cP8VtBDmNMysJFGJol4dio/tcDC8TD+OSsEmaO4VEucaIRYz3M 7P7nZmIIzvnHRpcHn/pzafROdeOsLjYy1tm1+Ns8fuR0FBFhZmHfXx3J9soFNZZu OjY38H5sR3U= =FD9Z -----END PGP SIGNATURE-----
participants (3)
-
harka＠nycmetro.com -
Jonathan Wienke -
William H. Geiger III