mpd@netcom.com (Mike Duvos) writes:

Lucky Green writes:

: Right. I read a book on that. I think it was called "The Millgram : Experiment". Normal people would administer (fake, but they didn't know : it) electroshocks to a subject even after the subject had stopped moving : and could have been assumed to be unconscious or even dead. An excellent : demonstration of the power of authority. And the gullibility of the : average person.

Stanley Millgram did quite a few experiments along such lines. His conclusion after persuading quite ordinary people to administer what seemed to be fatal electric shocks to a subject, pressured only by the orders of an authority figure saying "The experiment must continue" and other such phrases, was that should the United States wish to set up a system of Nazi style death camps, personnel to staff them could be taken from the population of any average midwestern town.

He also did another interesting experiment called "prisoners and guards" in which he selected people at random and dressed them up in the appropriate uniforms. The guards happily abused the prisoners, falling into the appropriate roles almost automatically.

Of course, such psychological experiments are banned today, because they don't make it through the ethics committees. Nonetheless they demonstrate that there are few differences between "us" and "them," and that most ordinary people will rise to the occasion when given a new pair of jackboots.

I recently came across a very similar incident on the Usenet newsgroup alt.smokers.cigars. (Disclaimer: I don't smoke, at least not cigars.) In a nutshell, some business person came across this (pretty active) newsgroup (he was not around when it was newgrouped and became pretty active), declared it its property, and began to retromoderate it (i.e. forge cancels for any traffic he didn't like). He kept claiming that he is some kind of "Usenet Administrator with Full Access". A couple of searches in DejaNews will turn up plenty of amazing responses from the regulars in the newsgroups bending over and baaing, "We're not questioing Bob's authority as a Usenet Administrator, nor the way he chooses to fuck us over..." Recommended reading. --- Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps

Tim May writes: : I'm curious about the "such psychological experiments are banned today" : assertiokn. : Are you saying that if I were to announce such an exeriments at the next : physical Cypherpunks meeting and ask for volunteers that I would be : breaking some law? Such experiments require major deception on the part of the experimenter towards the subject, and the experiments are likely to cause post traumatic stress afterwards. This violates current ethical standards concerning informed consent and freedom from risk to the subject which govern such experiments today. If you performed such an experiment on someone outside of current ethical guidelines, there would be a queue of lawyers a mile long offering to help the subject sue you after the fact. It is not inconceivable that the subject might convince the police to trump up some charges as well, related to fraud or psychological torture. : Or are you saying instead that most university researchers are now unable : to get grant money from the NSF and CIA to do such experiments? That too. : Or that any professor who publishes on such things may face disciplinary : action from his university? You would probably be looking your next tenured position in Brazil. : Big differences. : Insofar as I understand the law, so long as extreme physical torture is : avoided, no laws cover such experiments. (Many religions are in fact : organized along these lines, a la the Moonies, the Krishnas, etc.) : (And extreme physical torture may also be legal, a la S & M and consenting : sex practices, depending on one's jurisdiction. In San Francisco, even the : mayor attends S & M parties.) I think the deception aspect of the experiments would be the major cause of hassles rather than the unpleasantness aspect. On the other hand, I believe there have been prosecutions for consensual S&M in a few supposedly civilized places, like the UK. I expect a screaming fag with nipple pinching clothespins and a portable electro-ejaculator could probably still get himself arrested domestically for plying his trade in places like Cincinnati or the states of North Carolina, Tennessee, and Utah. -- Mike Duvos $ PGP 2.6 Public Key available $ mpd@netcom.com $ via Finger. $