Re: Applauding Violence (was: Re: Wine Politics Again! (fwd))
Peter Trei wrote:
If they don't know shit from shinola, then let them base their beliefs on any mistaken notion they wish. Every cypherpunk who wants to edit their posts out of fear that some dweeb will mistake them for the God of Cypherpunks raise your hand. (Looks like you're the only one, Peter.)
It certainly did for Rodney King.
Precisely. The level of minimum action needed to change the status quo is increasing by leaps and bounds. If the average citizen was not complacently allowing the government to run ramshod over the rights and freedoms of the citizens, then the individuals who choose to battle this oppression would not have to take such drastic action in retaliation.
Everyone has their own threshold of pain which they can endure before they feel compelled to take steps to counteract the actions of the source of that pain. For some that threshold is a slap, for some a punch, and for some it is a beating. Those who cause pain to others will suffer the consequences of their actions. This applies to the people who are lowest on the totem pole in the oppression of the citizens just as much as it applies to Timothy McVeigh. I didn't notice any great cries of outrage when the U.S. attack on Saddam Hussein resulted in the death of innocents. It seems that some lives are deemed more expendable than the lives of others. When U.S. forces slaughtered retreating Iraqui troops a great cheer of victory sounded throughout the nation. Had the opposite scenario been the case, the nation would have been calling for the heads of the Iraquis for their callousness. If those who participate in the unjust persecution of a plethora of the nation's citizens become so comfortable with their ability to remain insulated from the consequences of their actions that they feel free to place their children at the scene of the crime, then they face the same responsibility as someone who takes their child along on an armed robbery. The terrorism was not instituted by the citizens against their government, but the other way around. TruthMonger #2
I'm not seeing some fraction of the list's traffic, for reasons unclear to me (but problems at cyberpass.net seem to be involved), so I'll have to respond to messages as best I can. At 12:42 PM -0800 5/12/97, Huge Cajones Remailer wrote:
I never worry about representing the "common 'cypherpunk' viewpoint." I represent my own views. Those who agree, can agree. Those who don't, don't. Sounds fair to me. As for anger and a survivalist mentality...some readers obviously weren't around right after Waco, for example. (Though much of the anger was vented on related lists, such as Extropians.) And the creation of the group and mailing list can be traced back to a strongly "survivalist" mode of thinking in 1992 and then into 1993, when the implications of the Clipper program became clear. (Some of us saw the seeds of Clipper six months earlier, in events during the first month of the list's existence.) Now that those who only want to talk about mathematical algorithms have their own moderated mailing lists, there is much less reason to avoid sociopolitical essays. Those who don't want to hear about politics and want only to discuss C++ programming tricks are free to avoid the Cypherpunks list.
Only if I'm stopped illegally. I've been stopped, but my truck has never been searched.(Though California is, like any good police state, expanding the grounds under which vehicles may be searched.)
I freely admit I have never had the patience to analyze in detail their world view. This is why I'm not a "policy wonk," I suppose. I did analyze the writings of Denning in enough detail to figure out where she was going, which made her appearance as the Clipperchick hardly surprising. Do I "demonize" them? No, I just think they're thieves and liars, and in many cases murderers. I could recap the many examples of this, from well-substantiated evidence the CIA was running drugs, to acts of military terrorism by the U.S....but this is all well-trod ground. (Part of why little effort need be expended trying to "understand the actual underlying goals" of these politicians and bureacrats. As with gun rights and the NRA, understanding the "goals" of a Sarah Brady or Diane Swinestein is a waste of time...their goals are transparent. The NRA, a vasly larger and better organized group than we are, tried to "understand" and "reach common ground" with these folks and got stomped on by the process. Ditto for the EFF. Washington, like Paris, like Teheran, like all imperial capitals, thrives on such Borg-like assimilations.
For the 3rd or 4th time, I have never advocated terrorism, at least not of a physical sort. I have said I hope to see D.C. nuked, which is hardly the same as "advocating" terrorism in any meaningful sense (not even the "will no one rid me of this corrupt city?" sense, given that I have no Beckett-like powers). And I have said I can understand some of the motivations of McVeigh, though I think what he did hurt the cause of liberty. Those who don't like my honest expressions of opinions should go elsewhere. Things are bad here in this growing police state, but it isn't yet evidence of a crime to wish for certain things. (There appears to be an exception for publically wishing something bad will happen to certain persons who play golf a lot and ride in Air Force One...part of America's New Royalism. Though even in this case a leading Senator who warned that Clinton had better be wearning a bulletproof vest if he visits his home state was not charged with any crime...if some college student had made exactly the same threat he'd have been raided, thrown in jail for a week or so with Bubba (the other Bubba), expelled from college, and so on.) The Cypherpunks list is clearly not for everyone. Many who were once major contributors have left, or moved on, or whatever. Some even work in crypto, and at least one company is mainly made up of folks who met on the Cypherpunks list. That some of them have lost interest in politics, or denounce the current list as "too political," or refer to anyone not doing a crypto company as "Cypherpunks hobbyists," well, that's to be expected. The Cypherpunks list was not to everyone's liking even 4 years ago, as any reading of the Detweiler Wars will obviously see. And back then there were calls for more compromises with the Washington power establishment, for working with legislators, and so on. Some even left the list back then because the list was too "anarchic," and wouldn't adopt an official Charter, an official Spokespunk, and so on. So? As a final note, some of the folks over the years urging more official links to the Washington establishment, more "crypto outreach" to legislators, actually lived in the Virginia-D.C.-Maryland area. In one telling example, at the famous post-Clipper emergency meeting (4/93), some of them called for more Cypherpunk outreach to D.C. "Fine," we said (we being the 40 or so folks in the crowded room in Mountain View), "we're glad you've volunteered to make political action your special focus." Those of us in Silicon Valley, 3000 miles away from D.C., were happy to hear some "locals" planning a D.C. effort. Alas, but predictably, this never went anywhere. So, everytime I hear suggestions on the list that Cypherpunks should "work with Washington," I think of this and snicker. --Tim May There's something wrong when I'm a felon under an increasing number of laws. Only one response to the key grabbers is warranted: "Death to Tyrants!" ---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---- Timothy C. May | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money, tcmay@got.net 408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA | knowledge, reputations, information markets, Higher Power: 2^1398269 | black markets, collapse of governments. "National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."
participants (2)
-
nobody＠huge.cajones.com -
Tim May