Re: Wine Politics Again!
At 09:26 PM 5/9/97 -0800, Tim May wrote:
Every day that passes, I'm more convinced that McVeigh did the right thing. Some innocents died, but, hey, war is hell. Broken eggs and all that. ......................................................
Timothy must be drunk; I can't believe he said this. Because he wouldn't spend so much time writing sensible things of Truth & Light, if he thought the better thing to do for achieving libertarian values was to kill so indiscriminately with a bomb. After all, he subscribes to utmost discrimination. So I think right now he's less in the engagement of Reason and more under the influence of maybe some Bud Light. .. Blanc .. Blanc
At 11:35 PM -0800 5/9/97, Blanc wrote:
At 09:26 PM 5/9/97 -0800, Tim May wrote:
Every day that passes, I'm more convinced that McVeigh did the right thing. Some innocents died, but, hey, war is hell. Broken eggs and all that. ......................................................
Timothy must be drunk; I can't believe he said this. Because he wouldn't spend so much time writing sensible things of Truth & Light, if he thought the better thing to do for achieving libertarian values was to kill so indiscriminately with a bomb. After all, he subscribes to utmost discrimination. So I think right now he's less in the engagement of Reason and more under the influence of maybe some Bud Light.
Give me a break. The "he must be drunk" argument is the cheapest shot, no pun intended, in the book. (And, please, knock of the use of "Timothy" is a post where one disagrees. If "Tim" is fine for most responses, why the sudden formal "Timothy"? Another rhetorical device.) Never ascribe to alcohol what can be explained by righteous anger. I _said_ that innocents died. But there never should've been a day care center in a soft target. Innocents died in Dresden. No doubt compelling stories and images could be dug up of little Frieda slowly suffocating as the firestorms sucked the air out of her underground shelter, or of little Hans screaming for his mother as his hair bursts into flames. 300,000 died in that fire bomb raid, freely admitted to be a "public demonstration" of allied willingness to destroy civilians in what was primarily a "cultural" city, not a significant center of military production. McVeigh probably did not help the cause of liberty, in the long run. But I can better understand why he acted. He saw that Federal building as a military target. Innocents died. Such is the nature of war. --Tim May There's something wrong when I'm a felon under an increasing number of laws. Only one response to the key grabbers is warranted: "Death to Tyrants!" ---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---- Timothy C. May | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money, tcmay@got.net 408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA | knowledge, reputations, information markets, Higher Power: 2^1398269 | black markets, collapse of governments. "National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."
Tim May <tcmay@got.net> writes:
Innocents died in Dresden. No doubt compelling stories and images could be dug up of little Frieda slowly suffocating as the firestorms sucked the air out of her underground shelter, or of little Hans screaming for his mother as his hair bursts into flames. 300,000 died in that fire bomb raid, freely admitted to be a "public demonstration" of allied willingness to destroy civilians in what was primarily a "cultural" city, not a significant center of military production.
Why go so far back? How many civilians were murdered by the U.S. gubmint in Korea, in Viet Nam, in Panama, in Iraq? --- Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- attila sez: Dresden was probably the first highly visible of America's willingness to literally destroy civilian populations with the express intent of demoralizing a nation. however, history seems to indicate in was a Churchillian "revenge" for the Blitz carried out by both British and American bombers --however, the latter were capable of greated payloads at greater range. apparently the American bombers carried primarily heavy ordinance, the British lit it up --however, the functions were probably mixed. Hiroshima may have been later, but Dresden set the stage. Hiroshime undoubtedly saved hundreds of thousands of both US troops and Japanese civilians from further war --the Emporer stepped in and made the broadcast without the approval of the general staff --basically, "enough is enough." Dresden served virtually no purpose on the German front --the war was over. Churchill and Roosevelt approved Dresden for revenge; Truman just ended a war. Obliterating Iraq and continuing to grind the heel is just another round of power politics and US Middle East foreign policy. To the rest of the world, the US is a militaristic bully bent on economic advantage -- the old British lion reincarnated. government is its own end: power corrupts, and absolute power corrupts absolutely. hasn't changed yet in history. even the greats, Solomon, David, etc. fell prey to the siren song of power; why should far more inferior men like Bubba, who has absolutely nothing to his credit except deceit, be exempt? ________________________> on or about 970510:1312 dlv@bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM) expostulated: +Tim May <tcmay@got.net> writes: +> Innocents died in Dresden. No doubt compelling stories and images could be +> dug up of little Frieda slowly suffocating as the firestorms sucked the air +> out of her underground shelter, or of little Hans screaming for his mother +> as his hair bursts into flames. 300,000 died in that fire bomb raid, freely +> admitted to be a "public demonstration" of allied willingness to destroy +> civilians in what was primarily a "cultural" city, not a significant center +> of military production. +Why go so far back? How many civilians were murdered by the U.S. +gubmint in Korea, in Viet Nam, in Panama, in Iraq? ______________________________________________________________________ Lord grant me the serenity to accept the things I cannot change; The courage to change the things I can; The weapons that make the difference; And the wisdom to hide the bodies of the people I had to kill because they pissed me off. ______________________________________________________________________ "attila" 1024/C20B6905/23 D0 FA 7F 6A 8F 60 66 BC AF AE 56 98 C0 D7 B0 -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: 2.6.3i Charset: latin1 Comment: No safety this side of the grave. Never was; never will be iQCVAwUBM4HYyb04kQrCC2kFAQHgcAQApNrDCMxnb2o2WGJlKI4zO2IfSbmo/ba2 Ik1unm3dbsGDy8wilx4qkbwaRtGl6+d4okod4w8dOgZH0mePxy8eFj9D3bsIgaix OYZkWNO1F3o0lmuXqT0kPbct/Hx1d9hsiJMJogTBEPYyjmlxYK3xFl5VYuJw6SOm /lx0H+5VNW4= =NleV -----END PGP SIGNATURE-----
At 04:46 PM 5/20/97 +0000, Attila T. Hun wrote:
Dresden was probably the first highly visible of America's willingness to literally destroy civilian populations with the express intent of demoralizing a nation.
General Sherman's march through the Confederacy wasn't first either. Depending on when you count "America" starting, it was probably some attack on some Indian group. If you count internal attacks as well, maybe the crushing of the Whiskey Rebellion or Shay's Rebellion?
government is its own end: power corrupts, and absolute power sounds like so much fun....
+Why go so far back? How many civilians were murdered by the U.S. +gubmint in Korea, in Viet Nam, in Panama, in Iraq?
Casualties from Bush's invasion of Panama were about 6000, mostly military. All sorts of people were murdering civilians in VietNam and Korea - governments, wannabe governments, other civilians... US figures for deaths in VietNam are typically given as 50,000, though sometimes you can remind them of the 2-3 million VietNamese killed (in contrast to during the war itself, when there were exaggerated body counts to make it sound like the draftees were doing a great job of killing Commies.) # Thanks; Bill # Bill Stewart, +1-415-442-2215 stewarts@ix.netcom.com # You can get PGP outside the US at ftp.ox.ac.uk/pub/crypto/pgp # (If this is a mailing list or news, please Cc: me on replies. Thanks.)
On Tue, May 20, 1997 at 04:46:08PM +0000, Attila T. Hun wrote:
government is its own end: power corrupts, and absolute power corrupts absolutely. hasn't changed yet in history. even the greats, Solomon, David, etc. fell prey to the siren song of power; why should far more inferior men like Bubba, who has absolutely nothing to his credit except deceit, be exempt?
"Power corrupts..." isn't a property of governments, it is a property of individual human beings. -- Kent Crispin "No reason to get excited", kent@songbird.com the thief he kindly spoke... PGP fingerprint: B1 8B 72 ED 55 21 5E 44 61 F4 58 0F 72 10 65 55 http://songbird.com/kent/pgp_key.html
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- on or about 970520:2310 Kent Crispin <kent@songbird.com> expostulated: +On Tue, May 20, 1997 at 04:46:08PM +0000, Attila T. Hun wrote: +> government is its own end: power corrupts, and absolute power +> corrupts absolutely. hasn't changed yet in history. even the +> greats, Solomon, David, etc. fell prey to the siren song of power; +> why should far more inferior men like Bubba, who has absolutely +> nothing to his credit except deceit, be exempt? +"Power corrupts..." isn't a property of governments, it is a property +of individual human beings. aw, come on, Kent --you remind me of the faggots dancing around Harvard Square in 1960 when TOCSIN was in its heyday before it became SANE. jocks used to go down there on Saturday mornings to bait them into attacking so the Irish cops could bust them. some peaceniks managed to be rather violent with their placards. If you have not figured it out --government is the *enabler* to corrupt absolute power. I just love idealistic peaceniks, the better ones taste just like chicken. ______________________________________________________________________ "attila" 1024/C20B6905/23 D0 FA 7F 6A 8F 60 66 BC AF AE 56 98 C0 D7 B0 -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: 2.6.3i Charset: latin1 Comment: No safety this side of the grave. Never was; never will be iQCVAwUBM4SQD704kQrCC2kFAQFneAP/bTYRk1OcC2lpn0uxIEeLAy9WHkgCV5af +0p3azmZpk3L+lwDUOJjP7VqggQPvIBGjjlyddBJE5AEfMFs4nB+RDFRHLwIhZ+i mq7ydoulh5N7E9cirCpaC6PNgWsh+xy2iPcWBUPdg3XxVrUI7UhogSyb0pIVEyB0 JKQYe3dXcaw= =ffpk -----END PGP SIGNATURE-----
At 3:35 am -0400 on 5/10/97, Blanc wrote:
So I think right now he's less in the engagement of Reason and more under the influence of maybe some Bud Light.
Nah. He's just doing his Sam Adams routine. (hyuk!) Cheers, Bob Hettinga ----------------- Robert Hettinga (rah@shipwright.com), Philodox e$, 44 Farquhar Street, Boston, MA 02131 USA "... however it may deserve respect for its usefulness and antiquity, [predicting the end of the world] has not been found agreeable to experience." -- Edward Gibbon, 'Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire' The e$ Home Page: http://www.shipwright.com/
Blanc <blancw@cnw.com> writes: [Quoting Timmy May]
Every day that passes, I'm more convinced that McVeigh did the right thing. Some innocents died, but, hey, war is hell. Broken eggs and all that.
Timothy must be drunk; I can't believe he said this. Because he wouldn't spend so much time writing sensible things of Truth & Light, if he thought the better thing to do for achieving libertarian values was to kill so indiscriminately with a bomb. After all, he subscribes to utmost discrimination. So I think right now he's less in the engagement of Reason and more under the influence of maybe some Bud Light.
Everybody in that building was somehow affiliated with the gubmint. --- Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- attila sez: as to trivializing tim may as to wine and for his comment below on OKC, if the gubmit becomes a terrorist state (and who is to deny that it is not, and has not been this century), then the terrorist much expect retaliation. The US in this century, at one point or another in time, has destabilized 90%+ of the world governments, including the Labour Party in GB prior to Iron Maggie's rule (and if you want names of the phony US Dept of State consular employees involved, a pointer can be provided). turnabout will be increasingly fairplay. certainly not by me --too old and far too disinterested to waste energy on a foolish self-perpetuating fraud when the majority of ignorance prefers security over freedom. as for McVeigh: either there were a whole group of people involved to be able to satchel the building columns, or the government was the driving force. and why was the *entire* ATF staff elsewhere? OKC came at a perfect time to help Clintons' drive to push anti-terrorist legislation to deny personal freedoms "...for the common good." draw your own conclusions; it's only history repeating itself --noone listened the first couple hundred times. as for the great fairweather liberal bigot Blanc's passing it off as tcm's drunken ramblings, I doubt it. war is hell, and "innocents" get wasted --but, a society at war has no innocents. blow 'em all away. scorched earth is inadequate; burnt earth is more effective. if there are no prisoners, there are no complainers. ___________________> on or about 970510:0906 dlv@bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM) expostulated: +Blanc <blancw@cnw.com> writes: +[Quoting Timmy May] +> >Every day that passes, I'm more convinced that McVeigh did the right thing. +> >Some innocents died, but, hey, war is hell. Broken eggs and all that. +> +> +> Timothy must be drunk; I can't believe he said this. Because he wouldn't +> spend so much time writing sensible things of Truth & Light, if he thought +> the better thing to do for achieving libertarian values was to kill so +> indiscriminately with a bomb. After all, he subscribes to utmost +> discrimination. So I think right now he's less in the engagement of +> Reason and more under the influence of maybe some Bud Light. +Everybody in that building was somehow affiliated with the gubmint. -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: 2.6.3i Charset: latin1 Comment: No safety this side of the grave. Never was; never will be iQCVAwUBM4HUmb04kQrCC2kFAQHqjQQAg0Vku0l4DYJ9eCspi6q+A1VFbjXEsUOV MayPekw5STfxeKLgVf8GqKYyRTvqcnP9atUkreueuEfWGrGvQes9Uv9aokkXmY5S NCYhNlyJA/lTEwe41mOmQpC0cRVmm9B36aB65W/oumrVdS8P4BZC+SrMQg+knUh2 7IQSfnWZmro= =9UFJ -----END PGP SIGNATURE-----
At 8:23 AM -0800 5/20/97, Attila T. Hun wrote:
as to trivializing tim may as to wine and for his comment below on OKC, if the gubmit becomes a terrorist state (and who is to deny that it is not, and has not been this century), then the terrorist much expect retaliation.
The United States of America sits astride the world, holding the riding crop and ordering the other nations of the world around in various ways. It sends troops to distant parts of the world. It even takes on the main "peacekeeping" (meaning: choosing a faction and suppressing the other factions) role in Yugoslavia...surely a European problem, if a problem at all. (I say let the Bosnians, Serbs, Croatians, Albanians, Macedonians, etc. massacre each other. That my tax dollars, and American lives, are being spent in this "Balkanized nonsurprise" are criminal. If infowar and terrorism are needed to destabilize the U.S. Military-Industrial War Machine, then I guess that's what's needed. Period.) The USA is without any doubts the largest economic and political power. And it uses threat of military intervention to influence other terrorist states. It's military budget remains bloated far beyond any reasonable response to realistic threats. It is, of course, the world's policeman. Worse, the world's secret policeman. (Lest you doubt this, it trained, and continues to train, the torturers in Africa and South America. It issued the CIA manual on assassinations and torturings, and it taught several armies how to encourage prisoners to talk by throwing some of them out of helicopters. Now it is training the former KGB and related folks in how to wage a War on Drugs and Civil Rights in their countries. I wonder if the helicopter trick is still being taught?) Meanwhile, the alleged civil rights and cyber liberties groups are arguing "it's the best deal we can get" while dozens of new restrictions on speech and encryption are being promulgated. And so on. (I could give a dozen examples, from DiFi's "bomb-making instructions ban" to forcing the Playboy Channel off cable systems until 10 p.m. to restrictions on speech about what an acceptable employee applicant is (Hint: Don't say that Ebonics is unacceptable, else face fines). The only valid point of view is to reject all limits on basic rights. And since mere rejection of the points of view of the NSA, EPIC, CIA, CPSR, DIA, EFF, DEA, etc. is not enough, to sabotage companies which work with these stooges. (Many Cypherpunks are now working for these companies which have decided to "play ball" with David Aaron, George Tenet, Louis Freeh, and the others. I hope you are considering what options exist to undermine and sabotage such efforts. The Cypherpunks meeting in March generated some good ideas.) And one of our own is arrested on almost certainly trumped up charges designed to play well in the media (botulism in the water, Sarin in the air...they probably found some Loompanics and Paladin Press books on how to make nerve gases and other poisons...freely available, and I have some myself).
The US in this century, at one point or another in time, has destabilized 90%+ of the world governments, including the Labour Party in GB prior to Iron Maggie's rule (and if you want names of the phony US Dept of State consular employees involved, a pointer can be provided).
The United States of America is the world's leading terrorist state. From mining harbors in countries with democratically elected governments to financing the blowing up of airliners by dissident groups to assassinating dozens of leaders of countries the USA wished to shape in different directions, the USA is Terror State Numero Uno. Destabilizing a terror state is, I think, a moral thing to do.
as for the great fairweather liberal bigot Blanc's passing it off as tcm's drunken ramblings, I doubt it. war is hell, and "innocents" get wasted --but, a society at war has no innocents. blow 'em all away. scorched earth is inadequate; burnt earth is more effective. if there are no prisoners, there are no complainers.
As I said at the time, Blanc's cheap shot was an incoherent form of criticism. As I write much the same things morning, noon, and night (check the timings of my posts), either I'm drunk at all hours of the day, or these are my overall views. You folks can decide for yourselves. I noticed with interest this morning that Peter Trei had an interesting thought experiment for implementing a variant of assassination politics. Interesting because not much more than a week or two ago Peter was making the point that I seemed to have gone off the deep end, or at least was no longer writing "thoughtful" essays and/or was not focussing on what he wanted to read about (a hopeless task, of course, to tune one's writings to the interests of others). Peter has now thrown in with the "let's see how AP might work." His variant, "Who do we want to see hit with a bus?," is of course essentially identical to AP. "Has Peter lost it with these rantings?" And of course we have Declan McCullagh, a reasonable fellow, saying that we'd better restrain ourselves or the government will do it for us. (One wonders if the First Amendment is still being taught in journalism school.) Hey, maybe Swinestein will introduce a new law to stop discussions of freedom of speech. "It Takes a Village," after all. --Tim May There's something wrong when I'm a felon under an increasing number of laws. Only one response to the key grabbers is warranted: "Death to Tyrants!" ---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---- Timothy C. May | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money, tcmay@got.net 408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA | knowledge, reputations, information markets, Higher Power: 2^1398269 | black markets, collapse of governments. "National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."
On Tue, May 20, 1997 at 04:23:10PM +0000, Attila T. Hun wrote: [...]
as for the great fairweather liberal bigot Blanc's passing it off as tcm's drunken ramblings, I doubt it. war is hell, and "innocents" get wasted --but, a society at war has no innocents. blow 'em all away. scorched earth is inadequate; burnt earth is more effective. if there are no prisoners, there are no complainers.
Speaking of power corrupting, notice how the power to speak anonymously has destroyed this poor souls brain. -- Kent Crispin "No reason to get excited", kent@songbird.com the thief he kindly spoke... PGP fingerprint: B1 8B 72 ED 55 21 5E 44 61 F4 58 0F 72 10 65 55 http://songbird.com/kent/pgp_key.html
Kent Crispin <kent@songbird.com> writes:
On Tue, May 20, 1997 at 04:23:10PM +0000, Attila T. Hun wrote: [...]
as for the great fairweather liberal bigot Blanc's passing it off as tcm's drunken ramblings, I doubt it. war is hell, and "innocents" get wasted --but, a society at war has no innocents. blow 'em all away. scorched earth is inadequate; burnt earth is more effective. if there are no prisoners, there are no complainers.
Speaking of power corrupting, notice how the power to speak anonymously has destroyed this poor souls brain.
Fuck you, Kent. --- Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- on or about 970521:0304 dlv@bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM) expostulated: + writes: +> On Tue, May 20, 1997 at 04:23:10PM +0000, Attila T. Hun wrote: +> [...] +> > as for the great fairweather liberal bigot Blanc's passing it off +> > as tcm's drunken ramblings, I doubt it. war is hell, and +> > "innocents" get wasted --but, a society at war has no innocents. +> > blow 'em all away. scorched earth is inadequate; burnt earth is +> > more effective. if there are no prisoners, there are no +> > complainers. +> +> Speaking of power corrupting, notice how the power to speak +> anonymously has destroyed this poor souls brain. +Fuck you, Kent. __________< thanx, Dimitri, I could not have replied more eloquently myself. and, I never had complainers after burnt earth actions. Kent is obviously jealous and angry he was not along for the ride 30+ years ago. actually, I did abhor the policy sufficiently to resign a commission w/o benefits and to suffer their standard means of discredit. I guess Kent is still wet behind the ears, no use wasting the time to clue him in on Hr. Doktor Professor.... ______________________________________________________________________ "attila" 1024/C20B6905/23 D0 FA 7F 6A 8F 60 66 BC AF AE 56 98 C0 D7 B0 -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: 2.6.3i Charset: latin1 Comment: No safety this side of the grave. Never was; never will be iQCVAwUBM4Pkzr04kQrCC2kFAQGcSgQAkNbtWEW2jrimgWx0Ql8BaBb6fasRO8Qj hrdNv5yz29Mmgy08KIvsYtT+ijRFm7b58qQQl+AFJQp37AM5FnDkvacvX4c5UUdc s1MCuvZ/Xqw4tLOOG+BY2J2FboULBpDUWBbhP2ppRcpFRVC6WzwqX8oLcNPo3deR w/aK8bcQbI8= =cVp1 -----END PGP SIGNATURE-----
At 11:13 PM 5/20/97 -0700, Kent Crispin wrote:
On Tue, May 20, 1997 at 04:23:10PM +0000, Attila T. Hun wrote: [rant deleted - bill] Speaking of power corrupting, notice how the power to speak anonymously has destroyed this poor souls brain.
Attila's not anonymous - he's a regular poster, and has been for long enough to build up some reputation around his penname.
"Power corrupts..." isn't a property of governments, it is a property of individual human beings.
Mostly. But you're presumably advocating government by humans. And while government is an abstraction of the activities of a lot of individual humans, governments do tend to accumulate and abuse power, and tend to reach a point where they're more interested in maintaining and increasing that power than in any legitimate activities like protecting life, liberty, and property. Consider the drug war, the military-industrial complex, the fraction of your income that's paying for government, and compare that with 200 years ago... Also power _attracts_ the corrupt, and the corruptible. As Henry the K said, it's the ultimate aphrodisiac. # Thanks; Bill # Bill Stewart, +1-415-442-2215 stewarts@ix.netcom.com # You can get PGP outside the US at ftp.ox.ac.uk/pub/crypto/pgp # (If this is a mailing list or news, please Cc: me on replies. Thanks.)
Bill Stewart <stewarts@ix.netcom.com> writes:
At 11:13 PM 5/20/97 -0700, Kent Crispin wrote:
On Tue, May 20, 1997 at 04:23:10PM +0000, Attila T. Hun wrote: [rant deleted - bill] Speaking of power corrupting, notice how the power to speak anonymously has destroyed this poor souls brain.
Kent, I think you would find that Attila would be perfectly happy to include his map coordinates, phone number, full name and address and repeat his views to you, or to repeat them to your face, aside from the privacy considerations.
Attila's not anonymous - he's a regular poster, and has been for long enough to build up some reputation around his penname.
I'm not sure how anonymous Attila is in total. He made a comment on this with regard to Black Unicorn's anonymity a short while back. I'm not sure he's trying to hide his identity to that great a degree beyond using a nick name that some folks gave him years back. There are several things which would help you track details down... he has regularly discussed his local mormon community, the location in which he lives, and his own domain "hun.org", his position within the local mormon church, his big bore 'bike, physical appearance (300lb gorilla I think is his own description), nationality, qualifications, military service details, etc. A whois on hun.org would likely get you his phone number, or someone who would know his phone number. His primenet account would probably similarly get you info. Unless he uses aliases in real life also, and unless the details he has given us over the years are not true. (I haven't met him, though I think others have). In short I believe you picked on the wrong guy if you considered Attila an example of someone with lots to say when hiding behind strong anonymity. Adam -- Have *you* exported RSA today? --> http://www.dcs.ex.ac.uk/~aba/rsa/ print pack"C*",split/\D+/,`echo "16iII*o\U@{$/=$z;[(pop,pop,unpack"H*",<> )]}\EsMsKsN0[lN*1lK[d2%Sa2/d0<X+d*lMLa^*lN%0]dsXx++lMlN/dsM0<J]dsJxp"|dc`
On Wed, May 21, 1997 at 06:39:39PM +0100, Adam Back wrote:
Bill Stewart <stewarts@ix.netcom.com> writes:
At 11:13 PM 5/20/97 -0700, Kent Crispin wrote:
On Tue, May 20, 1997 at 04:23:10PM +0000, Attila T. Hun wrote: [rant deleted - bill] Speaking of power corrupting, notice how the power to speak anonymously has destroyed this poor souls brain.
[...]
In short I believe you picked on the wrong guy if you considered Attila an example of someone with lots to say when hiding behind strong anonymity.
Adam
I should have posted my comment anonymously, obviously. I appologize to Mr Hun and the world for my mistake. I must have confused him with one of the TMs. -- Kent Crispin "No reason to get excited", kent@songbird.com the thief he kindly spoke... PGP fingerprint: B1 8B 72 ED 55 21 5E 44 61 F4 58 0F 72 10 65 55 http://songbird.com/kent/pgp_key.html
At 9:44 PM -0800 5/21/97, one of the KCs wrote:
I should have posted my comment anonymously, obviously. I appologize to Mr Hun and the world for my mistake. I must have confused him with one of the TMs.
One of the TMs? How could you mistake Attila for me? --TM There's something wrong when I'm a felon under an increasing number of laws. Only one response to the key grabbers is warranted: "Death to Tyrants!" ---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---- Timothy C. May | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money, tcmay@got.net 408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA | knowledge, reputations, information markets, Higher Power: 2^1398269 | black markets, collapse of governments. "National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."
On Wed, May 21, 1997 at 11:32:18PM -0800, Tim May wrote:
At 9:44 PM -0800 5/21/97, one of the KCs wrote:
I should have posted my comment anonymously, obviously. I appologize to Mr Hun and the world for my mistake. I must have confused him with one of the TMs.
One of the TMs? How could you mistake Attila for me?
Truth Monger, Trash Mongrel, Trivia Monster, Tripe Master, Terror Minion -- there are lot's of TMs. Maybe they are all the same. KC #0
On Wed, May 21, 1997 at 12:50:02AM -0700, Bill Stewart wrote:
At 11:13 PM 5/20/97 -0700, Kent Crispin wrote:
On Tue, May 20, 1997 at 04:23:10PM +0000, Attila T. Hun wrote: [...] "Power corrupts..." isn't a property of governments, it is a property of individual human beings.
Mostly. But you're presumably advocating government by humans.
Strictly speaking, I don't advocate government. Rather, I think that government is innate to the human species. Chimpanzees and Baboons have a political/social power hierarchy -- it's ubiquitious among higher primates. In fact, it's common among a great many different kinds of animals. Humanity has a much more complex and evolved power hierarchy, to be sure, but the same fundamental psychological motivation -- a "will to power", if you will -- is present.
And while government is an abstraction of the activities of a lot of individual humans, governments do tend to accumulate and abuse power, and tend to reach a point where they're more interested in maintaining and increasing that power than in
Yes, that tendency does seem to exist. There's an analogy to gravity organizing matter in clumps -- each individual bit of matter contributes to the overall effect; each individual human being contributes their bit of power hunger to the mix.
any legitimate activities like protecting life, liberty, and property.
Who decides what are legitimate activities for government? Either the "elite" or the "sheeple", or some combination thereof? Strictly speaking, I think the "legitimate activities for government" is meaningless -- ultimately governments *always* define their own legitimacy. To precisely the extent that you are able to effectively discuss the "legitimate activities of government" you are in fact participating in the power struggle, which means you are part of the real government (just a small faction perhaps...) Note that the cryptoanarchy electronic money agenda is just another power play that uses privacy rhetoric as a smokescreen for it's real purpose, namely, empowering an elite. Money, after all, is a powerful weapon.
Consider the drug war, the military-industrial complex, the fraction of your income that's paying for government, and compare that with 200 years ago...
The drug war is an expression of collective idiocy, IMO -- one of many. The military-industrial complex is a good, concrete example that government and society are inseperable. The point about the fraction of my tax dollars -- the fact of the matter is that we are all *much* better off than we would have been 200 years ago, that society as a whole is more productive, and as indivuals we get far more back from the society/government we live in than we could ever possibly contribute. "The System" as a whole could be more efficient, certainly, but it's hard to make meaningful comparisons with things 200 years ago.
Also power _attracts_ the corrupt, and the corruptible. As Henry the K said, it's the ultimate aphrodisiac.
Which is obvious, if you look at the primate origins. -- Kent Crispin "No reason to get excited", kent@songbird.com the thief he kindly spoke... PGP fingerprint: B1 8B 72 ED 55 21 5E 44 61 F4 58 0F 72 10 65 55 http://songbird.com/kent/pgp_key.html
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- In <19970521092223.04748@bywater.songbird.com>, on 05/21/97 at 10:22 AM, Kent Crispin <kent@songbird.com> said:
Who decides what are legitimate activities for government? Either the "elite" or the "sheeple", or some combination thereof? Strictly speaking, I think the "legitimate activities for government" is meaningless -- ultimately governments *always* define their own legitimacy. To precisely the extent that you are able to effectively discuss the "legitimate activities of government" you are in fact participating in the power struggle, which means you are part of the real government (just a small faction perhaps...)
It is very simple as to what the legitimate activities of the government is. It is explicitly spelled out in The Constitution of The United States. It states quite clearly in no uncertain terms what the federal government can and can not do. Unfortunately people like yourself and the majority of politicians feel that they can wipe their ass with this document whenever it suits their needs. - -- - ----------------------------------------------------------- William H. Geiger III http://www.amaranth.com/~whgiii Geiger Consulting Cooking With Warp 4.0 Author of E-Secure - PGP Front End for MR/2 Ice PGP & MR/2 the only way for secure e-mail. Finger whgiii@amaranth.com for PGP Key and other info - ----------------------------------------------------------- Tag-O-Matic: To whom the gods destroy, they first teach Windows... -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: 2.6.2 iQCVAwUBM4NJQo9Co1n+aLhhAQHsdAQAwymTJK9JA0aFeQ/DQuZeEbpgDu3jiPjV 4JMPk6y+Ag7oQdn2ywuzFu/sSTUurZjBNNRtPT0dfrEnC9RTavyiyRc+uM7qyLI2 UIBtPSzA+w+llX6kVZgLDXcMO+jconMA4jk4L+gmR39gQOHWvtxG4pxEX21L8f25 zkDhs00B1s0= =r5dm -----END PGP SIGNATURE-----
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- At 01:05 PM 5/21/97 -0500, you wrote: | |It is very simple as to what the legitimate activities of the government |is. It is explicitly spelled out in The Constitution of The United States. |It states quite clearly in no uncertain terms what the federal government |can and can not do. Unfortunately people like yourself and the majority of |politicians feel that they can wipe their ass with this document whenever |it suits their needs |- ----------------------------------------------------------- |William H. Geiger III http://www.amaranth.com/~whgiii |Geiger Consulting Cooking With Warp 4.0 More importantly perhaps, the Tenth Amendment directs, that is to say it is not left up to chance, who shall possess those unassigned powers: "The powers not delegated to the United States by the Constitution, nor prohibited by it to the states, are reserved to the states respectively, or to the people. In many cases these reserved powers have been assumed by the federal government or abrogated by the people. Alec -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: 2.6.3ia Charset: cp850 iQCVAgUBM4NUAiKJGkNBIH7lAQF67AP7BzrUEasnQPYlnAGx3LRzWzZNGdog90Hc lMzyxL+6jGsHLXS20Q7BJxJIzTJfWAZQqsSZiVu+uHpviRNCITLqekaXEpmsTVHH DhOIpT49QereN5S+IxHcVdpXEonK+cAGqKB2oV8frsupSfKgvkoNeWNSPuuDQtuo HOxS7zvbXHE= =GAXJ -----END PGP SIGNATURE-----
On Sat, May 10, 1997 at 09:06:10AM -0500, Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM wrote:
Blanc <blancw@cnw.com> writes:
[Quoting Timmy May]
Every day that passes, I'm more convinced that McVeigh did the right thing. Some innocents died, but, hey, war is hell. Broken eggs and all that.
Timothy must be drunk; I can't believe he said this. Because he wouldn't spend so much time writing sensible things of Truth & Light, if he thought the better thing to do for achieving libertarian values was to kill so indiscriminately with a bomb. After all, he subscribes to utmost discrimination. So I think right now he's less in the engagement of Reason and more under the influence of maybe some Bud Light.
Everybody in that building was somehow affiliated with the gubmint.
Everybody everywhere is somehow affiliated with the gubmint, including you and Tim May. -- Kent Crispin "No reason to get excited", kent@songbird.com the thief he kindly spoke... PGP fingerprint: B1 8B 72 ED 55 21 5E 44 61 F4 58 0F 72 10 65 55 http://songbird.com/kent/pgp_key.html
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- In <19970510075351.10131@bywater.songbird.com>, on 05/10/97 at 08:53 AM, Kent Crispin <kent@songbird.com> said:
On Sat, May 10, 1997 at 09:06:10AM -0500, Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM wrote: > Blanc <blancw@cnw.com> writes:
[Quoting Timmy May]
Every day that passes, I'm more convinced that McVeigh did the right thing. Some innocents died, but, hey, war is hell. Broken eggs and all that.
Timothy must be drunk; I can't believe he said this. Because he wouldn't spend so much time writing sensible things of Truth & Light, if he thought the better thing to do for achieving libertarian values was to kill so indiscriminately with a bomb. After all, he subscribes to utmost discrimination. So I think right now he's less in the engagement of Reason and more under the influence of maybe some Bud Light.
Everybody in that building was somehow affiliated with the gubmint.
Everybody everywhere is somehow affiliated with the gubmint, including you and Tim May.
That may be so but I doubt anyone on the list enjoys such affiliations more the you Kent. :( - -- - ----------------------------------------------------------- William H. Geiger III http://www.amaranth.com/~whgiii Geiger Consulting Cooking With Warp 4.0 Author of E-Secure - PGP Front End for MR/2 Ice PGP & MR/2 the only way for secure e-mail. Finger whgiii@amaranth.com for PGP Key and other info - ----------------------------------------------------------- Tag-O-Matic: Windows: The CP/M of the future! -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: 2.6.2 Comment: Registered User E-Secure v1.1 ES000000 iQCVAwUBM3ShmI9Co1n+aLhhAQGxhgQAqNw/NSdqXsO31k9fN1sgmHajiWXkfgl8 lsohbgUBFgwSG+l6hTtJseUfZOLd1ZrCLWxwdARkmgvRY1qGe60c4jJ+3PIbIy8O bYpcY/4yxmfo5lW3nCXDsnn5jZUFOb3rAtxOgjHGlazrGq34BTe0L74N0F23T7F5 OIp1FhgV/T4= =Jyix -----END PGP SIGNATURE-----
Kent Crispin <kent@songbird.com> writes:
On Sat, May 10, 1997 at 09:06:10AM -0500, Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM wrote:
Blanc <blancw@cnw.com> writes:
[Quoting Timmy May]
Every day that passes, I'm more convinced that McVeigh did the right thi Some innocents died, but, hey, war is hell. Broken eggs and all that.
Timothy must be drunk; I can't believe he said this. Because he wouldn' spend so much time writing sensible things of Truth & Light, if he though the better thing to do for achieving libertarian values was to kill so indiscriminately with a bomb. After all, he subscribes to utmost discrimination. So I think right now he's less in the engagement of Reason and more under the influence of maybe some Bud Light.
Everybody in that building was somehow affiliated with the gubmint.
Everybody everywhere is somehow affiliated with the gubmint, including you and Tim May.
Wrong-o - I ain't done for shit for the U.S. gubmint since the Reagan presidency or so. You know better about Timmy May. --- Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps
On Sat, May 10, 1997 at 10:25:07AM -0500, William H. Geiger III wrote:
Everybody everywhere is somehow affiliated with the gubmint, including you and Tim May.
That may be so but I doubt anyone on the list enjoys such affiliations more
the you Kent. :( William, your precious "individuality" is a tiny wart in the vast echoing emptiness of your mind. That wart sits in shuddering awe of its trivial non-descript self because it is blind to the beauty of the rest of its own being. -- Kent Crispin "No reason to get excited", kent@songbird.com the thief he kindly spoke... PGP fingerprint: B1 8B 72 ED 55 21 5E 44 61 F4 58 0F 72 10 65 55 http://songbird.com/kent/pgp_key.html
At 12:35 AM 5/10/97 -0700, Blanc wrote:
Timothy must be drunk; I can't believe he said this. Because he wouldn't spend so much time writing sensible things of Truth & Light, if he thought the better thing to do for achieving libertarian values was to kill so indiscriminately with a bomb. After all, he subscribes to utmost discrimination. So I think right now he's less in the engagement of Reason and more under the influence of maybe some Bud Light.
He didn't say it was a better thing to do. He said he was coming to understand McVeigh's actions. It is important that everyone from the uninvolved on up to the ruling classes understand that we are reaching a point where laws won't "work" anymore because power is devolving down the heirarching to the fundamental organizational unit -- the individual. If two guys with $2K to spend can take out a building or someone else with ten minutes to spend and a Net connection can render export controls ineffective then power relationships have changed. The faster our "rulers" and their "ruled" understand this, the lower the total body count. They simply don't have the power any more. It's gone. Tim is helping (in his way) to convince others of the facts of the matter. Dramatic statements carry the message better. The more people who are convinced that politics is dead, the faster the corpse will decay and the smoother the transition. DCF
At 9:07 AM -0800 5/10/97, frissell@panix.com wrote:
At 12:35 AM 5/10/97 -0700, Blanc wrote:
Timothy must be drunk; I can't believe he said this. Because he wouldn't spend so much time writing sensible things of Truth & Light, if he thought the better thing to do for achieving libertarian values was to kill so indiscriminately with a bomb. After all, he subscribes to utmost discrimination. So I think right now he's less in the engagement of Reason and more under the influence of maybe some Bud Light.
He didn't say it was a better thing to do. He said he was coming to understand McVeigh's actions.
Exactly.
It is important that everyone from the uninvolved on up to the ruling classes understand that we are reaching a point where laws won't "work" anymore because power is devolving down the heirarching to the fundamental organizational unit -- the individual. If two guys with $2K to spend can take out a building or someone else with ten minutes to spend and a Net connection can render export controls ineffective then power relationships have changed.
The faster our "rulers" and their "ruled" understand this, the lower the total body count. They simply don't have the power any more. It's gone.
However, while we may think their power is gone, or is almost gone, they think otherwise. And we're seeing an accelerating pace of lawmaking, as laws are being generated by the 50 states, the various municipalities, and, of course, the Feds. Even the lawmakers can't explain what their laws will mean, or who will be prosecuted, or how many new prisons will have to be built to handle the new felons. This is the "race to the fork in the road" I have long talked about. The future will be pulled between two attractors, with essentially no middle ground (just as there is no middle ground in cryptographic security, like pregnancy). At one side lies a surveillance state, with citizen-units using approved crypto with approved government backdoors, escrow of diaries, and random searches under flimsy pretexts. At the other side lies crypto anarchy, with free men and women arranging the economic and social transactions they wish, using unbreakable crypto to communicate across nominal national borders and without only disdain for local attempts to control such communications. Many of us believe crypto anarchy will win out, and governments will be undermined in various ways (including forcibly, using the new degrees of freedom to deploy destructive technologies...hence my "avoid soft targets" line). The bureacrats believe more and more repressive laws will control troublemakers. Who will actually win? I think we will. They think they will. The war is underway. --Tim May There's something wrong when I'm a felon under an increasing number of laws. Only one response to the key grabbers is warranted: "Death to Tyrants!" ---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---- Timothy C. May | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money, tcmay@got.net 408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA | knowledge, reputations, information markets, Higher Power: 2^1398269 | black markets, collapse of governments. "National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."
Tim May <tcmay@got.net> writes:
However, while we may think their power is gone, or is almost gone, they think otherwise. And we're seeing an accelerating pace of lawmaking, [...]
This is the "race to the fork in the road" I have long talked about. The future will be pulled between two attractors, with essentially no middle ground (just as there is no middle ground in cryptographic security, like pregnancy). At one side lies a surveillance state, [...] At the other side lies crypto anarchy, [...]
The bureacrats believe more and more repressive laws will control troublemakers.
Who will actually win?
I think we will. They think they will. The war is underway.
So what are we doing to fight our side? (Apart from fantasizing about nuking the bastards till they glow :-) They seem to be able to keep many people busy just reacting to the stupid laws and proposed laws. They can propose laws pretty fast whilst on their all expenses paid (by us) corrupt political games. Whoring to corporate and intelligence special interests, and power grabbing for job security as the malignant growth that is government heads towards > 50% body mass. So their tactic seems to be to bring out laws at an accelerating rate. And to send the crypto facist Aaron around bullying other countries. If some of these laws actually pass, we're in deep shit. They're actually talking about restricting imports, making it a crime to use crypto, mandatory key escrow (US, Clipper XXIII, I've lost count), licenses for encryption services (UK, TTPs). Somehow I don't think SAFE will pass (either with or without the crypto crime clause), if anything does get passed it will be so perverted as to be hugely negative for our purposes. Maybe some of the draconian stuff is not expected to stand a chance of passing and is just there for bargaining purposes. Regardless, we can't expect any favours from laws, or politicians. So what can cypherpunks do? Write code? Perhaps it's time for some stego interfaces to remailers. Usually around this time Black Unicorn gives us his wish list of crypto anarchy apps. I'm not sure we've progressed much towards his wish list since the last time he posted it. I thought the Eternity Service I announced a week or so ago was a step towards reducing the possibility for government censorship of web pages. (http://www.dcs.ex.ac.uk/~aba/eternity/) Not much interest to date. Ideas stand on their merit, but the success of crypto anarchy services also depends on ease of use, funding, volunteer effort, publicity, and evangelizing. I haven't done much of the latter yet lacking an example server to bootstrap the system, I hope to have this up in a few weeks. Adam -- Have *you* exported RSA today? --> http://www.dcs.ex.ac.uk/~aba/rsa/ print pack"C*",split/\D+/,`echo "16iII*o\U@{$/=$z;[(pop,pop,unpack"H*",<> )]}\EsMsKsN0[lN*1lK[d2%Sa2/d0<X+d*lMLa^*lN%0]dsXx++lMlN/dsM0<J]dsJxp"|dc`
At 09:26 PM 5/9/97 -0800, Tim May wrote:
Every day that passes, I'm more convinced that McVeigh did the right thing. Some innocents died, but, hey, war is hell. Broken eggs and all that. ......................................................
Timothy must be drunk; I can't believe he said this. Because he wouldn't spend so much time writing sensible things of Truth & Light, if he thought the better thing to do for achieving libertarian values was to kill so indiscriminately with a bomb. After all, he subscribes to utmost discrimination. So I think right now he's less in the engagement of Reason and more under the influence of maybe some Bud Light.
I have to say I agree, I believe that violence is probably the only way to proceed in order to defend ourselves against the criminals within modern societies, however, I seperate this entirely from the action of killing indiscriminately. I have to say also that I believe that if one were to drop a fairly large bomb on a major US city, say LA or NYC, the probable outcome would be that 99% of the people killed would be corrupt scum anyway, in DC I would imagine the figure would be approching 100%, however, this does not absolve one from blame if, through some freak outcome, a small bomb of, say, the Timothy McVeigh style happens to kill an innocent person, one is still guilty of murder. Part of the reason I despise government so greatly is because the poloticians justify their actions by reference to "the greater good", ie. "If a few thousand innocent conscripted members of the army get killed defending our society so be it." In the end, it also comes down to what action you believe is justifiable in the name of freedom, ie. When I say I believe 99% of people in sat NYC are corrupt scum this is true, but to varying degrees, I would personally say, as an estimate, only 3 to 5% of these people should be executed for their crimes, the others are either corrupt morally on a small level, or are just naive, eg. I believe people who vote in democratic elections commit a crime against me by being part of the process which brings about authoritarian government, even if they vote for a party that proposed to rule according to libertarian values they still perpetuate a system where the majority control the actions of the minority, however, I would not kill these people, I believe they are simply ill educated and unable to comprehend the wrong they do me. The bottom line is, I disagree with what Tim said but I do sympathise with the reasons why he said it. Datacomms Technologies data security Paul Bradley, Paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk Paul@crypto.uk.eu.org, Paul@cryptography.uk.eu.org Http://www.cryptography.home.ml.org/ Email for PGP public key, ID: FC76DA85 "Don`t forget to mount a scratch monkey"
participants (14)
-
Adam Back -
Alec -
Attila T. Hun -
Bill Stewart -
Blanc -
dlv＠bwalk.dm.com -
frissell＠panix.com -
Kent Crispin -
nobody＠hidden.net -
Paul Bradley -
Robert Hettinga -
Tim May -
Willaim H. Geiger III -
William H. Geiger III