-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- In <3.0.32.19961205212336.006a520c@netcom14.netcom.com>, on 12/05/96 at 09:24 PM, Lucky Green said: ::At 07:08 PM 12/5/96 -0800, Steve Schear wrote: ::>This has all vanished is our zeal ::>to protect youth and society from any activity which might lead ::>injury or misuse. I can't even find a place to buy a niece a real ::>chemistry set as tort laws have forced them from the market. When ::>considering the plummeting >interest and achievement of our youth in ::> math and science we look no further for a reason. ::When Wernher von Braun (if the reader doesn't know who von Braun was, ::shame on your teachers. Hint: first human on the Moon.) first became ::interested in rocketry, he was a student of music. Classical piano, to ::be exact. He got his hands on a book about using rockets for space ::exploration. To his dismay, the book was full of mathematical ::equations. He went to his math teacher, asking him for help with the ::equations. The teacher must have been of help, since von Braun went on ::to become the single most knowledgable person in his field. And no, it ::wasn't piano playing. ::There is nothing like some real life challenges to spark a young ::person's mind. Today, conducting the experiments that fueled von ::Braun's imagination would be a felony. The mere possession of the ::chemicals he used in his early twenties is illegal. ::This country has set out on a project to dumb the minds of its young. ::With great success. bingo! and, how. they have succeeded beyond their wildest dreams! I had a roommate at Harvard (late fifties) who had incredibly deep pockets. his mother died his freshman year, leaving him her estate on the tip of Fisher's Island, including the costal defense battery positions and bunkers. he had an Apache twin for which I managed to get a license including instrument very quickly --we then went to FI for weekends and built and fired everything you can imagine. only a few curious paid us any mind as the closest estate to hers was at least 1/2 mile. can you imagine that today? --the tip guards the entrance to the New London pig boat pens and the LI sound! there were still plenty of professors with both knowledge on the early rockets, and open enough to "private" teach. My advisor was a Nobel prize winner, very accessible, and provided both help and introductions to men most never knew even existed in the vast science complex north of the yard. most were in the same old building (Pierce) with the RF screens on the outside walls to shield against the primitive radar --long dark and narrow halls. It is a whole different ball game in academia. men whom I have recently met are nothing like their predecessors who were open and warm --everyone is so "professional" and they are _cold_. sad story in general. some bright spots though, I guess. I was rather surprised by experiments and their depths in AP Chemistry offered my third son by St George's Dixie High School --impressive and not the usual restrictions on "oh, poor Johnny might hurt himself while clowning ...err learning." a) we have better discipline which works; and b) we don't put up with those silly whiners (so far). but the future does not speak well with declining tests scores which, for instance, require the SATs to be watered 20-30% so the median would still be 500! to think that the pair of 800s I received in the 50s can be acquired by someone scoring less than 650s --what value has the US placed on education? enough so our students now rank well down in the second 10 on international tests! what makes that worse is the _majority_ of Korean students can perform --the lower 1/3 of our students have already dropped out of school, and the second third are too uneducated to participate. junior colleges are graduating students who would not have passed out of tenth grade 20-30 years ago. and, the government wants more mind control --even Bitch's "It Takes a Global Village." at least it's fat chance out here in the high desert. -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: 2.6.3i Charset: latin1 Comment: Encrypted with 2.6.3i. Requires 2.6 or later. iQCVAwUBMqfRNr04kQrCC2kFAQHfxAP+NbZ4JZIjraKsVBAKLx60AAKYyFDeT8Ly o8DAnYdfkuEtN04orz+fqFIKUeNjonglMYeIp/xGqTtQeqVRS6uURpD/K8EAxDR/ jv1EQanC2SrV6yc0TtiNwV9WTFlRrOZjt0gH3uwfv+yDPtgpDVaBL0b6sNH+6BDg Sh7UaRbkeYo= =Ssdu -----END PGP SIGNATURE-----

Lucky Green wrote:

There is nothing like some real life challenges to spark a young person's mind. Today, conducting the experiments that fueled von Braun's imagination would be a felony. The mere posession of the chemicals he used in his early twenties is illegal.

This country has set out on a project to dumb the minds of its young. With great success.

Quite. I once heard a comment that young pyrotechnicians (?) go on to become either great scientists or great lawyers, presumably due to their having to explain to their parents the reason for large clouds of smoke etc. Gary

On Fri, 6 Dec 1996, Asgaard wrote:

Attila wrote:

...

to participate. junior colleges are graduating students who would not have passed out of tenth grade 20-30 years ago.

Isn't this merely an effect of mass education instead of elite_only education? And the peak performers will do as well as they ever did? Doesn't every generation claim that the younger people get defective education in some sense? The Latin speakers of Gen 1 were horrified that Gen 2 didn't get a thorough understanding of classic Greek culture and geometry (but started with 'sets' and 'subsets' instead).

I disagree. The parochial schools (at least in Oregon) are also showing declining test scores. As a parent I make it a habit to look through the text books to see what they are teaching - and as expected, the Revisionists have not only rewritten and deleted much of the relavent American and World history, but have watered down the math and science to the point or ludicracy in some cases. Let's face it, when Bill Nye the Science Guy is the most popular and the *most informative* science educational show on the mass media tube - we've got more than a little problem (For the Bill Nye fans - yes I do enjoy watching the show with my younger kids). As a second oberservation, much of the yuppie/hippie generations dont seem to give a damn about what their kids are taught - but more that the grades are good and they qualify for the "right" schools. Many of these schools (college's) are finding that they have to teach the rudiments before moving onto what they would have taught first year had the kids come properly educated in the first place. Having lived in a number of school districts (some better than others), the problem of parental non-participation and NEA interference is endemic at those institutions where my children have attended. I have even taken on teachers and adminstrators over the issues of lack of home work, why my children have *not* read literature such as Shakespeare, why they are not learning about the Founding Father's, why Columbus is considered politically incorrect, why they are not requiring Algebra prior to the Senior year in High School, why my children must be subject to "sensitivity training" as *part* of the curriculum, and the list goes on. The US spends more money per child each year, but the level of education and necessary skill drilling keeps declining, being replaced by courses in sex education, diversity training, etc. - creating a class of state indoctrinated, functionally illiterate, non-competative individuals that think the goverment is mom and pop. As for the best and the brightest, they will only succeed if the parents take responsibility for managing their kid's education. I know Attila's kids personally, and just about any one of them is intellectually capable and educated enough to mop the floor with a majority of posters I have seen on this list. Why? Because he has spent years fostering their inquisitive nature and getting them to push themselves along - outside of and at the expense of the teachers' and administrators' sanity.

Science is still exploding in electro-physics, digital programming, molecular biology and several other fields. (I wonder what is happening in Pure Math with No Applications - not even for Cryptography :) - these days?) And formal education is gradually loosing to actual competence.

Interesting point. More to the point, where is the innovation in the field coming from? Europe ? Asia? US? elsewhere?

A real difference, though, is the relative lack of multidisciplinary theorists nowadays, I mean with a deep understanding of several 'unrelated' fields of knowledge. Most of us with actual competence in a certain area are SUBspecialists. This is natural since the knowledge bases have exploded to become impossible for any one man or woman to comprehend. An industrial cobol programmer probably doesn't know shit about Java (perhaps a bad example; I'm not a programmer, but I know a guy who makes a good living off cobol!) and a PCR biochemist hacking DNA doesn't know shit about immunology or molecular neurology. In bio-science there is a discipline which tries to put all such kinds of specialties into a broader understanding of the human/animal body and soul - it's called physiology, and is a declining field with chronic lack of funds; not much money in it. I'm sure there is a comparable discipline of computer science that I'm not able to name (information theory??), with similar economic problems. But there is still hope for the GMAU (Grand Meta-Analysis of the Universe); AltaVista is a new, good start for collecting ingredients :-)

I will agree with you here. It has been said to me many times by Buisness types and Scientists that the days of the Generalist have long since died. One must specialize in order to survive. While there may be a certain amount of truth to that - it is a short sighted and disasterous claim at best, as it precludes the visonaries who understand the big picture and can collect, organize, and execute designs the push us forward with useful innovations.

So, I'm not worried. When I indulge in the inevitable bashing of younger generations I stick to their bade taste of music, like rap and hip-hop (but some acid house/techno is ok), and appearance, like tatoos and piercing, and life-style, like working-out, cliff-climbing and resorting to vitamins, herbal medicine and other useless stuff. (But even so, psychodelic drugs are making a come-back which I think is a Good Thing.)

Asgaard (Gen 2)

Every generation has their "rebellious" stage designe to piss off the "establishment". What I find amusing is that liberal parents are horrified when their kids, cut their hair, take an interest in education, economics and politics, and turn conservative as a result. :-) ...Paul