Re: Responding to Pre-dawn Unannounced Ninja Raids
At 08:15 PM 7/21/96 +0000, you wrote:
Again, I am not crusading against guns and armed self-defense, but I am indeed saying that simply having a firearm at home does not insure safety and security. You have to go beyind having a gun and get a dog and/or a metal door. A good fence is also a plus, although may not always be possible.
I'd certainly agree with that, but would like to add that an unloaded gun is of no use and a gun in the nightstand or in the trunk of your car is also of no use. For all cases other than home intrusion, the gun has to be worn -- I recommend a shoulder holster. In the case of home intrusion, one can hope that the intruder has no desire to be successful and permits you to get the drop on him. Perhaps he'll slam the refrigerator door allowing you to fumble around under your pillow for your weapon. I know of people who have walked out of museums with paintings trailing alarm wires -- so let's hope our intruder is an amateur and best of all is scared off by some phony security signs, fake alarm wires, etc. In these parts most guns seemed to be used by the temporarily depressed teenaged children of gun owners. One kid managed to live as a vegetable having successfully removed the source of his unhappiness -- his brain. Tough luck. Pretty hard to aim properly when you are upset. Lesson: keep your cool. Now for street wear I strongly recommend a variety of loads. Probably my favorite is a reversed semi-wadcutter. This puppy is extremely inaccurate since it starts tumbling as it leaves the barrel. At extremely close ranges it'll tear up some flesh and further out it'll walk nastily through outer clothing completely wrecking it for formal wear and continue through enough skin to be damaging. Low on kinetic energy, it will however transfer its entire momentum where it counts. A semi-automatic will not properly feed these, so you gotta be traditional if you are of the big clip persuasion. A few observations: since our hog leg is shoulder-holstered we will need a coat. Now if you want to take a piss, court-houses, airports and a few other public buildings are out. We would feel foolish being tackled and thrown to the floor while hunting for the restroom even if we slipped past security. So here we are, sweating and chafing with a gun and a coat and a urinary tract infection. Feel safe yet? -- Llywarch Hen
On Sun, 21 Jul 1996, Llywarch Hen <ecgwulf@postoffice.worldnet.att.net> wrote: [snip]
I'd certainly agree with that, but would like to add that an unloaded gun is of no use and a gun in the nightstand or in the trunk of your car is also of no use. For all cases other than home intrusion, the gun has to be worn -- I recommend a shoulder holster. In the case of home intrusion, one can hope that the intruder has no desire to be successful and permits you to get the drop on him. Perhaps he'll slam the refrigerator door allowing you to fumble around under your pillow for your weapon. I know of people who have walked out of museums with paintings trailing alarm wires -- so let's hope our intruder is an amateur and best of all is scared off by some phony security signs, fake alarm wires, etc.
If you lock your doors and windows, forced entry generally becomes a noisy, somewhat time-consuming process that allows anyone not in a recreational drug induced stupor or coma sufficient time to pull a pistol out of their shoulder holster (or nightstand drawer, etc.) and pull the hammer back. (2-3 seconds is all I need!)
In these parts most guns seemed to be used by the temporarily depressed teenaged children of gun owners.
In the majority of cases, (although the margin is on the decline) when an armed homeowner confronts a burglar, the burglar runs like projectile diarrhea for the nearest exit, and no shots are fired. However, these incidents are not counted as firearms "use", under current crime statistic collection methodology. Many of these incidents are not reported, especially in areas where gun ownership is not approved by the authorities. Furthermore, if your Cousin Vinnie the crack addict breaks into your house at 0300, attempts to rob you at knifepoint, and you force-feed him half a dozen jacketed hollow points for his trouble, the incident will usually be put in the same statistical category as the "crazed husband shoots wife, children, 11 neighbors, and 6 police officers" tragedies, even though you may never be charged with anything. Most "studies" of crime statistics come from gun control advocacy groups, and are suitable primarily for lining the bottoms of birdcages.
Now for street wear I strongly recommend a variety of loads. Probably my favorite is a reversed semi-wadcutter. This puppy is extremely inaccurate since it starts tumbling as it leaves the barrel. At extremely close ranges it'll tear up some flesh and further out it'll walk nastily through outer clothing completely wrecking it for formal wear and continue through enough skin to be damaging. Low on kinetic energy, it will however transfer its entire momentum where it counts. A semi-automatic will not properly feed these, so you gotta be traditional if you are of the big clip persuasion.
I have $10 US that says that this idiot has never fired a gun is his life. Furthermore, it is obvious he has no clue when it comes to bullet/target interaction. A "reversed semi-wadcutter" is going to stay in its original shape (for the most part), which will tend to make it over-penetrate, wasting kinetic energy and endangering people behind the target. Moreover, anyone who intentionally uses an inaccurate load is a fool--missed shots waste ammo, have no effect on the target, and run a significant risk of endangering innocent people. A hollow point or Glaser is a much better option. Jonathan Wienke "1935 will go down in history! For the first time a civilized nation has full gun registration! Our streets will be safer, our police more efficient, and the world will follow our lead in the future!" --Adolf Hitler "46. The U.S. government declares a ban on the possession, sale, transportation, and transfer of all non-sporting firearms. ...Consider the following statement: I would fire upon U.S. citizens who refuse or resist confiscation of firearms banned by the U.S. government." --The 29 Palms Combat Arms Survey http://www.ksfo560.com/Personalities/Palms.htm 1935 Germany = 1996 U.S.? Key fingerprint = 30 F9 85 7F D2 75 4B C6 BC 79 87 3D 99 21 50 CB
Llywarch Hen wrote:
In these parts most guns seemed to be used by the temporarily depressed teenaged children of gun owners. One kid managed to live as a vegetable having successfully removed the source of his unhappiness -- his brain. Tough luck. Pretty hard to aim properly when you are upset. Lesson: keep your cool.
I promised that when I have children I will not have guns at home. I think that for me the danger outweighs the benefit. I would explain them basic gun safety and how to shoot though, but would not keep guns around them for any long period of time. Lots of kids impulsively do things that they later regret. Like, once one little boy hit me hard in the head with a heavy stick from behind my back. I have never met him before, never even talked to him and never angered him. He was 3-4 years younger than me so obviously he did not do it because he was a bully. After he did it he was really sorry and no one including his mom could explain why he did it. Thanks to his mom who prevented me from beating the shit out of him. Now, if he or myself had access to a firearm, the life now would not be nearly as good as it is. I've seen these sudden destructive impulses in kids many times. - Igor.
I think it is a bad policy to say, "once I have kids in the house, I won't have guns there, period." Kids do need carefully controlled exposure to firearms and their hazards. I refer to the proverbial lesson a father or grandfather gies the young laddy - shooting a watermelon or whatnot, so that the kiddy can see that water-filled bags of protoplasm, when shot - get the shit blown out of them. No doubt, that guns need to be _positively_ secured in a household where kids are running around. Many states have laws to that effect. Now, if we could just get the unwashed masses to keep the sink-drain unclogger fluid, the radiator-antifreeze fluid, and these various other commobn household items - just as carefully secured....might reduce the workload on the nation's poison control centers. Without these parent-mediated exposures to firearms safety lessons, the only exposure today's kids have to the subject is what they see and hear in the public schools and on Hollywood TV/movies. The worst possible messengers.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ SANDY SANDFORT . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . C'punks, On Sun, 21 Jul 1996 ichudov@algebra.com wrote:
Lots of kids impulsively do things that they later regret. Like, once one little boy hit me hard in the head with a heavy stick from behind my back...Now, if he or myself had access to a firearm, the life now would not be nearly as good as it is.
I've seen these sudden destructive impulses in kids many times.
So have I, but your assertion begs the question. In an unarmed society, people don't have to curb their impulse to the extent they do in an armed one. As a result they often don't. The Swiss and the Israelis seem to avoid internecine fratricide, even though guns are everywhere. I don't think it is any coincidence that incivility and casual violence have increased in America in direct proportion to the ongoing orgy of victim disarmament. I've noticed that most civil and human interactions occur in gun stores and rifle ranges. I've been treated shabbily in health food stores, but never at a gun show. When was the last time you heard of someone being killed at the shooting range or in a gun store? It's statistically infinitesimal. Now ask yourself the same question about liquor and convenience stores... Powerlessness is far more a cause of impulsive rages than the trust, responsibility and empowerment engendered by gun ownership. S a n d y ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Sandy Sandfort wrote:
On Sun, 21 Jul 1996 ichudov@algebra.com wrote:
Lots of kids impulsively do things that they later regret. Like, once one little boy hit me hard in the head with a heavy stick from behind my back...Now, if he or myself had access to a firearm, the life now would not be nearly as good as it is.
I've seen these sudden destructive impulses in kids many times.
So have I, but your assertion begs the question. In an unarmed society, people don't have to curb their impulse to the extent they do in an armed one. As a result they often don't. The Swiss and the Israelis seem to avoid internecine fratricide, even though guns are everywhere. I don't think it is any coincidence that incivility and casual violence have increased in America in direct proportion to the ongoing orgy of victim disarmament.
... snip ...
Powerlessness is far more a cause of impulsive rages than the trust, responsibility and empowerment engendered by gun ownership.
As I said, the kid who hit me in the head with a stick was 3-4 years younger than me. You skipped that part. Correspondently, I could beat him easily (I did, but his mother soon interrupted me), which was obvious to him. So he had plenty of information that would deter a rational person. He had all the reasons to "to curb his impulse", as you said, and he could have thought about his punishment. Still, he hit me. He was NOT a rational person, therefore. Just as simple as that, that particular kid who hit me should not be trusted with a firearm at his age. This is a simple logical conclusion. Your arguments apply to people who do not do impulsive things. To adults for example. Again, I expressed my opinion about raising my own kids. I do not have an opinion on whether parents in general should be allowed to give guns to their kids or not, but I would not keep a firearm in my home when I have kids. I may teach them gun safety or shooting, but would never leave them at home with access to guns. - Igor.
participants (5)
-
Alan Horowitz -
ichudov＠algebra.com -
JonWienk＠ix.netcom.com -
Llywarch Hen -
Sandy Sandfort