At 10:14 PM 11/11/96 -0600, Igor Chudov wrote:

This is an interesting topic. I apologize if my questions are too trivial, but here they are:

1) Can a person without an SSN have a credit record? Some may say that a credit record is a bad thing to have, but I am still interested in a possibility. 2) Will private lenders (such as credit card issuers or mortgage companies) agree to extend credit to a person without an SSN or to someone who refuses to give out his SSN? 3) Will the state issue a driver's license to someone who does not have/does not wish to give out their SSN? 4) Will states' police (where applicable) approve purchases of firearms if purchasers do not state their ssn (misstating it may be a crime) on an application? 5) Employers are required to pay certain taxes and therefore they, in my understanding, need to know their employees SSNs. How can people get around that (unless they do not need to work)? 6) Can someone without an SSN obtain various kinds of insurance?

It is my understanding that the law does not regulate use of social security numbers between private parties. Businesses are free to refuse to do business with someone who does not present them an SSN. In real life, how inconvenient is life of a privacy-concerned individual?

Say, John Anonymous is a young 15 years old who anticipates to become an engineer and have a middle class life. He wants to get married, have children, drive a car, obtain insurance, work at some big company, travel around the world, invest in mutual funds or buy stocks, and so on. Reliance on government help is not important to him, so he would not apply for an SSN solely to get Social Security, welfare and such.

His parents are cypherpunks and did not obtain an SSN for John. How much effort would it cost him to live a life outlined above?

He couldn't, at least not in Oklahoma. In Oklahoma, students in public schools are now required to have SSN's. This may not apply to private schools, but I imagine that it does, at least to some degree. Having a high school education is certainly necessary to gain the Masters necessary to be an engineer. However, getting a drivers liscense should be easy. My sisters drivers liscense number is one that was randomly generated, all because she did not know her SSN off of the top of her head. My drivers liscense number is the same as my SSN, all because I know my state mandated serial number. For all practical purposes, I am Roach, Sean 447-xx-xxxx. Note, 447 refers to the state of my birth. My sisters record is at least a little more convoluted.