Hi, Forwarded message:

Date: Thu, 22 May 1997 15:08:27 -0400 To: "Willaim H. Geiger III" <whgiii@amaranth.com>, cypherpunks@toad.com Subject: Re: "You have the right to remain silent"

they can't order you to talk to them. They can arrest you with probable cause and detain you briefly for purposes of investigation.

They can arrest you at will w/ or w/o probable cause. If they can't produce probable cause at your hearing then a writ of habeas corpus comes into play. They can't CHARGE you without probable cause, minor but important distinction. As I understand it, the charges that are recorded when you first go to the police station are not 'official' until your hearing and a judge signs the paperwork. The police can even arrest you as a witness or for 'protective custody' and then even the habeas corpus gets murky because no charges are filed. If they can convince a judge to go along they can even hold you in communicado.

They can ask you for your name and you may have to supply it,

According to the 5th(?) Federal District you don't even have to do that unless you are driving a vehicle or otherwise operating under a public license.

Since cops are not judges,

This particular point if kept in mind changes the interpretation of the Constitution considerably. It also puts such actions as making it illegal for citizens to own assault weapons but the police can questionable since the constitution does not draw a distinction between law enforcement and the citizenry, as it does with the judicial, legistlative and executive bodies. It therefore follows that if I as Joe Citizen can't do it then a police officer can't either since they have no constitutional rights that I don't and the 10th Amendment prohibits expansion of federal power (and by extension of the 14th, states) by anything other than that proscribed in the constitution. Jim Choate CyberTects ravage@ssz.com