Excerpt on SPAM from Edupage, 11 February 1997
maybe relief is in sight; can we spell excedrin? on or about 970211:1433 educom@elanor.oit.unc.edu said: +COURT GRANTS COMPUSERVE INJUNCTION AGAINST JUNK E-MAIL +A U.S. district court in Ohio has granted CompuServe's request for a +preliminary injunction barring Cyber Promotions Inc. from sending +unsolicited e-mail to its subscribers while the commercial provider +pursues its lawsuit against Cyber Promotions. The injunction was +granted after Cyber Promotions foiled CompuServe's initial attempts to +block its messages by falsifying the point-of-origin information on +its e-mail messages and by configuring its network servers to conceal +its actual Internet domain name. "To the extent that defendant's +multitudinous electronic mailings demand the disk space and drain the +processing power of plaintiff's computer equipment, those resources +are not available to CompuServe subscribers," the court reasoned. In +addition, because many subscribers had complained to CompuServe about +the mailings, the court found that Cyber Promotions' intrusions +constituted "harm" as well as trespassing under common tort law. The +court found that the "plaintiff is not a government agency or a state +actor which seeks to preempt defendants' ability to communicate but is +instead a private actor trying to tailor the nuances of its service to +provide maximum utility to its customers." (BNA Daily Report for +Executives 7 Feb 97) ___________________________________________________________attila_____ "The only difference between me and a madman is that I am not mad." --Salvador Dali ___________________________________________________________attila_____ "attila" 1024/C20B6905/23 D0 FA 7F 6A 8F 60 66 BC AF AE 56 98 C0 D7 B0
At 6:21 PM +0000 2/12/97, Attila T. Hun wrote:
maybe relief is in sight; can we spell excedrin?
on or about 970211:1433 educom@elanor.oit.unc.edu said:
+COURT GRANTS COMPUSERVE INJUNCTION AGAINST JUNK E-MAIL
+A U.S. district court in Ohio has granted CompuServe's request for a +preliminary injunction barring Cyber Promotions Inc. from sending +unsolicited e-mail to its subscribers while the commercial provider ...
Were I a customer of CompuServe, I'd ask on what basis CompuServe was intercepting e-mail to me. In fact, a CompuServe account holder has made just this point: "I'll decide what's junk mail and what's not." Having the court system involved in deciding what mail is valid and what is not valid is not my idea of a free society. Having said this, the flaw remains that "junk mail" is "free" to the sender. This is a flaw in the ontology of e-mail, and needs to be fixed. Digital postage is one approach. I'm not holding my breath, but I sure don't want a "District Court" deciding. --Tim May Just say "No" to "Big Brother Inside" We got computers, we're tapping phone lines, I know that that ain't allowed. ---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---- Timothy C. May | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money, tcmay@got.net 408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA | knowledge, reputations, information markets, Higher Power: 2^1398269 | black markets, collapse of governments. "National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- on or about 970212:1525 "Timothy C. May" <tcmay@got.net> said: +At 6:21 PM +0000 2/12/97, Attila T. Hun wrote: +> maybe relief is in sight; can we spell excedrin? +> +>on or about 970211:1433 educom@elanor.oit.unc.edu said: +> +>+COURT GRANTS COMPUSERVE INJUNCTION AGAINST JUNK E-MAIL +> +>+A U.S. district court in Ohio has granted CompuServe's request for a +>+preliminary injunction barring Cyber Promotions Inc. from sending +>+unsolicited e-mail to its subscribers while the commercial provider +... +Were I a customer of CompuServe, I'd ask on what basis CompuServe was +intercepting e-mail to me. In fact, a CompuServe account holder has +made just this point: "I'll decide what's junk mail and what's not."]] + I could not agree more, in theory, except for the postage you discuss below which permits spammers greed to exceed responsibility, let alone the public interest. I am, of course, a theoretical anarchist; I believe I could put aside greed (and have) to be sufficiently altruistic to make a society of anarchists work (in a limited population model). However: "Only two things are infinite, the universe and human stupidity, and I'm not sure about the former." --Albert Einstein as long as we have a >30% third and fourth generation welfare class which the dogood liberal bleeders say we are obligated to sustain their breeding; and another 30% which are functionally illiterate, there is no hope for idealism. our "neighbors" have no idea how to spell anarchy, let alone understand the price of freedom. just because I would cut off the permanent welfare class at the knees, and disenfranchise the functionally illiterate if I had the chance, does not make anarchy any more feasible; it's just a more rigid police state for the havenots --again, something we do not need. sorry to be a pragmatic pessimist, but it went down hill with the 16th amendment and the Federal Reserve Act to benefit the Rockefellers, Vanderbilts, Rothschilds, Chases, etc. at our expense. +Having the court system involved in deciding what mail is valid and +what is not valid is not my idea of a free society. + again, you are correct except anarchy requires responsibility. free agency has its requirements and this is why junk fax was banned. too many members of our society can not spell anarchy or responsibility --their knowledge of vocabulary starts and ends with greed. +Having said this, the flaw remains that "junk mail" is "free" to the +sender. This is a flaw in the ontology of e-mail, and needs to be +fixed. Digital postage is one approach. probably cut down on our postings to cp as well! 32 cents to post? +I'm not holding my breath, but I sure don't want a "District Court" +deciding. I don't like the regulatory agencies either, but at least they are not Judge Roy Bean, Law West of the Pecos. unfortunately, until the irresponsible tone down their greed, we need the regulation to protect ourselves from the predators. in other words, I agree with you in my heart, but our society refuses to cooperate. ___________________________________________________________attila_____ "Explain to me, slowly and carefully, why if person A, when screwed over on a deal by B; is morally obligated to consult, pay, and defer to, person C for the purpose of seeing justice done; and why person C has any legitimate gripe, if A just hauls off and smacks B around like a dead carp." ___________________________________________________________attila_____ "attila" 1024/C20B6905/23 D0 FA 7F 6A 8F 60 66 BC AF AE 56 98 C0 D7 B0 -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: 2.6.3i Charset: latin1 Comment: No safety this side of the grave. Never was; never will be iQCVAwUBMwKgzb04kQrCC2kFAQEK0AP+PBClPteXMYFpcfJaeYgP8c077LZwFE5i O2taYhGGY2oiuw5U2r3Y4Qv2P/8CsCtZ/eSrBlmvMTOrYEi2Le0fjiefAFKte2g4 FSJ67ttFC3gSQyj75r99TJ+roYnJzGgec9X5f/kOr3Z0m3Da6u+m/l7siNmDOPae RDWsxwmjcyM= =huRr -----END PGP SIGNATURE-----
At 5:00 AM +0000 2/13/97, Attila T. Hun wrote:
on or about 970212:1525 "Timothy C. May" <tcmay@got.net> said:
+Having said this, the flaw remains that "junk mail" is "free" to the +sender. This is a flaw in the ontology of e-mail, and needs to be +fixed. Digital postage is one approach.
probably cut down on our postings to cp as well! 32 cents to post?
I'm sure Attila does not believe any digital postage scheme would fix the message rate at 32 cents, but it's an issue worth expanding upon. First, the rate would be based on true market conditions, presumably. That is, carriers of traffic would negotiate rates. Multiple stages of carriage would involve negotiation between carriers. (As with shipment of physical goods, where a shipment from Alice to Bob might involve several carriers: trucks, trains, warehouse use, delivery vans, toll road fees. All are "folded in" to the $3 or whatever charge paid by Alice or Bob, depending.) Second, the carriage charges for an ordinary e-mail message would likely be in the sub-cents range. Third, I don't see this ontological restructuring happening anytime soon. People have gotten used to "free" services. Fourth, we need to be alert to moves by the U.S. Postal Service to get a foot in the door for "digital postage." There's nothing they'd like more than having people clamor for the government to "do something!" about spam and "unwanted mail" and thus get this foot in the door.
unfortunately, until the irresponsible tone down their greed, we need the regulation to protect ourselves from the predators.
in other words, I agree with you in my heart, but our society refuses to cooperate.
Attila and I have had this disagreement before (last time it involved Attila's support for curfews). Attila is free to hire agents to screen his mail so he does not receive spam. He is not free, in a free society, to force such screeners upon me. Talking about "irresponsible tones" and "greed" and how we need more laws to protect ourselves from "predators" sounds more like something from the Marin County limousine liberal set than from a Utah mountain man Cypherpunk. I'm shocked, simply shocked. (:-}) --Tim May Just say "No" to "Big Brother Inside" We got computers, we're tapping phone lines, I know that that ain't allowed. ---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---- Timothy C. May | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money, tcmay@got.net 408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA | knowledge, reputations, information markets, Higher Power: 2^1398269 | black markets, collapse of governments. "National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- on or about 970213:0902 "Timothy C. May" <tcmay@got.net> said: +At 5:00 AM +0000 2/13/97, Attila T. Hun wrote: +> unfortunately, until the irresponsible tone down their greed, we +> need the regulation to protect ourselves from the predators. +> +> in other words, I agree with you in my heart, but our society +> refuses to cooperate. +Attila and I have had this disagreement before (last time it involved +Attila's support for curfews). +Attila is free to hire agents to screen his mail so he does not receive +spam. He is not free, in a free society, to force such screeners upon +me. very true. if you if define that your freedom includes the free abuse of your freedoms by others. freedom is a two way street; freedom in my book says that I can do anything I wish which does not infringe on the rights of others. now, that implies that I can _personally_ exact justice on those who violate my space. this is a state of war which even Jim Bell's AP does not cover --AP is just an anonymous and chicken-hearted way of settling the score, and creates its own code even more absurb than the rules coming down from Washington. and, I can not imagine you really believe the basic animals of our society and the predators who attempt to feed upon us all do not need to be restrained in one way or another. you obviously have a solution: your .44 (I prefer a full choke 12 ga pump). maybe the comment in my sig line is an expression of the suppressed feelings of the frustrated members of our society who have been confronted by the inequities of our legal system when they expected redress was their right. +Talking about "irresponsible tones" and "greed" and how we need more +laws to protect ourselves from "predators" sounds more like something +from the Marin County limousine liberal set than from a Utah mountain +man Cypherpunk. I'm shocked, simply shocked. shocked, simply shocked? (:-}) marin county? I'm insulted <g> tell you what: you run afoul of us out here on the "mountain" where there is no need for social niceties --we just call it "range law." ___________________________________________________________attila_____ "Explain to me, slowly and carefully, why if person A, when screwed over on a deal by B; is morally obligated to consult, pay, and defer to, person C for the purpose of seeing justice done; and why person C has any legitimate gripe, if A just hauls off and smacks B around like a dead carp." ___________________________________________________________attila_____ "attila" 1024/C20B6905/23 D0 FA 7F 6A 8F 60 66 BC AF AE 56 98 C0 D7 B0 -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: 2.6.3i Charset: latin1 Comment: No safety this side of the grave. Never was; never will be iQCVAwUBMwN12b04kQrCC2kFAQG8AwP/fT3BgeMG8V9IKOGjFEpI+3gY8F5cSohh 8qqaMrHkYT7UU1WZcO/1pGJyUycvOUgzzlFJoTYZsxP6NvJhpkGopHg31EUBDfC+ 5lFDJR1hlX6ckyL8moDlxi3l0z7Dxf6VO+J5dsCetmJG+QxN7/0PzeplN5oN9Y1V nHzMG5/FD5Y= =G/Ag -----END PGP SIGNATURE-----
At 8:10 PM +0000 2/13/97, Attila T. Hun wrote:
+Attila is free to hire agents to screen his mail so he does not receive +spam. He is not free, in a free society, to force such screeners upon +me.
very true. if you if define that your freedom includes the free abuse of your freedoms by others. freedom is a two way street; freedom in my book says that I can do anything I wish which does not infringe on the rights of others. now, that implies that I can
As this relates to "unwanted mail," I think calling this an "abuse of freedom by others" is misleading, and a slippery slope. On this same slippery slope lies the claims by some women, as an example, that images in Playboy "abuse their freedoms" (I'd've thought a different kind of abuse is involved, but I won't get into that here). Is unwanted physical mail also an abuse of freedom? How about unwanted personal letters? How about unwanted conversations in a Cypherpunks meeting? The answer to all of these issues lies outside the State. Invoking the power of Men with Guns to stop these "unwanted contacts" is simply wrong. Attila seems to be arguing that the State has a legitimate role in censoring certain contacts, whereas I argue that technology and contracting can almost always do a better job. I repeat: Attila is free to hire a censor, or nanny, or personal secretary to screen his calls, to sift through his mail to pass on only the most relevant stuff, and so on. Many celebrities and busy people do just this. (In the CompuServe case which triggered this thread, CompuServe certainly could have offered a "filtering" service to its members. This would be unexceptionable, and the right way to go, contractually and technologically.) Attila is not free, in a free society, to claim (*) that his freedoms are being infringed when people send him mail he is not interested in. (* He can certainly _claim_ it, but he cannot bring the State in to enforce his dubious claim about his freedom being infringed.) By the way, I think the "junk fax" and "junk phone call" laws are clearcut violations of the First Amendment. I understand why the herd _wants_ these laws, as it reduces the costs involved in replacing fax paper, running to the telephone only to find someone trying to sell something, etc., but it is quite clearly a prior restraint on speech, however well-intentioned. (There are technological solutions to these problems as well. The laws shield people from having to deal with these solutions, however.) --Tim May Just say "No" to "Big Brother Inside" We got computers, we're tapping phone lines, I know that that ain't allowed. ---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---- Timothy C. May | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money, tcmay@got.net 408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA | knowledge, reputations, information markets, Higher Power: 2^1398269 | black markets, collapse of governments. "National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."
participants (2)
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Attila T. Hun -
Timothy C. May