Re: Is Sandy really censoring criticisms of Stronghold, his product?
Okay, I went through my old mail, and I'm fairly sure this is the message. I'm convinced it never went to the flames list, and now that I've found out I'm on the -unedited list after all, I think it probably didn't go to the regular cypherpunks list either. Can people on the various lists confirm this for me? Given the total lack of technical content, the flamey nature of the article, and the fact that it is verifiably false (stronghold source code is available), I can see people arguing it should have gone to -flames (though I would probably disagree). However, I don't want to debate that. What I object to more strongly and think is wrong is the fact that it went to *neither* list. A lot of people out there are subscribing to the cypherpunks-flames and cypherpunks lists thinking that they will see everything that gets rejected (albeit with a substantial delay). If this is not the case, it should be made clear. Otherwise, it's not moderation, but dishonesty. --
From cypherpunks-errors@toad.com Thu Jan 30 17:26:50 1997 From: dlv@bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM) Subject: Security alert!!! To: cypherpunks@toad.com Date: Thu, 30 Jan 97 16:15:21 EST Organization: Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y. Received: (from majordom@localhost) by toad.com (8.7.5/8.7.3) id OAA18833; Thu, 30 Jan 1997 14:17:05 -0800 (PST) Received: from uu.psi.com (uu.psi.com [38.9.86.2]) by toad.com (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id OAA18824; Thu, 30 Jan 1997 14:16:39 -0800 (PST) Received: by uu.psi.com (5.65b/4.0.061193-PSI/PSINet) via UUCP; id AA02017 for ; Thu, 30 Jan 97 16:57:10 -0500 Received: by bwalk.dm.com (1.65/waf) via UUCP; Thu, 30 Jan 97 16:19:19 EST for cypherpunks@toad.com Comments: All power to the ZOG! Message-Id: <aw5c2D4w165w@bwalk.dm.com> Sender: owner-cypherpunks@toad.com Precedence: bulk Lines: 19
WARNING: There's a rogue trojan horse out there on the internet known as the "stronghold web server". It's actually a hacked-up version of Apache with a backdoor, which allows hackers (or whoever knows the backdoor) to steal credit card numbers and other confidentil information on the Internet. Be careful! Always use encryption. Do not send confidential information 9such as passwords and credit card numbers) to any site running the trojan horse "stronghold". In general, beware of "snake oil" security products and hacked-up versions of free software. Please repost this warning to all relevant computer security forums. --- Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps
At 10:07 PM +0000 2/7/97, Against Moderation wrote:
Okay, I went through my old mail, and I'm fairly sure this is the message. I'm convinced it never went to the flames list, and now that I've found out I'm on the -unedited list after all, I think it probably didn't go to the regular cypherpunks list either. Can people on the various lists confirm this for me?
I checked the archive site (http://infinity.nus.sg/cypherpunks) for the "main" (censored) list, and do not see it there, either by title or by author. I only recently subscribed to the Flames list, so I cannot check to see if it went there. Anyone else check the Flames list? As I said in my last messages, if this message went to neither the Main list nor the Flames list, then a very serious problem has been exposed. Further, if the post, while not being sent to either of the nominal lists which filtered stuff is supposed to go to, was used as the basis of legal threats by the employer of Sandy, the list's censor, then dramatically more serious implications seem evident. I await Sandy's views with great anticipation. The message itself does not look flamish to me. It makes charges, but so do a zillion other posts. It cannot be the job of a censor to decide on what is true and what is not true.
Given the total lack of technical content, the flamey nature of the
It's not "flamey." Nobody is called a cocksucker, nobody is called a faggot, etc. Yes, it claims a product has a trojan horse, but this is a claim comparable to other claims routinely made on list and newsgroups. I'm also neither stupid nor disingenuous. I realize full well that Vulis probably made the claim because he knows Sandy works for the seller of Stronghold. Be that as it may, it is not proper for a censor employed by the seller of a product to decide that criticisms of his product are flamish. Would the list have countenanced censorship of criticisms of an RSADSI product if the list were being censored by an employee of RSADSI? And by letting Vulis make such a claim, and then having it quickly rebutted by other employees of C2Net, for example, Vulis would be shown to be spreading disinformation and his reputation capital would decline still further. If in fact the Vulis claim never made it either of the two lists to which all filtered messages are supposed to be sorted, then deception has occurred. And a conflict of interest. Again, I await Sandy's response.
A lot of people out there are subscribing to the cypherpunks-flames and cypherpunks lists thinking that they will see everything that gets rejected (albeit with a substantial delay). If this is not the case, it should be made clear. Otherwise, it's not moderation, but dishonesty.
Indeed. --Tim May Just say "No" to "Big Brother Inside" We got computers, we're tapping phone lines, I know that that ain't allowed. ---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---- Timothy C. May | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money, tcmay@got.net 408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA | knowledge, reputations, information markets, Higher Power: 2^1398269 | black markets, collapse of governments. "National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- In <v03007804af2160f848b5@[207.167.93.63]>, on 02/07/97 at 05:03 PM, "Timothy C. May" <tcmay@got.net> said:
I'm also neither stupid nor disingenuous. I realize full well that Vulis probably made the claim because he knows Sandy works for the seller of Stronghold. Be that as it may, it is not proper for a censor employed by the seller of a product to decide that criticisms of his product are flamish. Would the list have countenanced censorship of criticisms of an RSADSI product if the list were being censored by an employee of RSADSI? And by letting Vulis make such a claim, and then having it quickly rebutted by other employees of C2Net, for example, Vulis would be shown to be spreading disinformation and his reputation capital would decline still further.
I had posted to the list earlier about the problem of moderation & reputation capital. I beleive that the moderation of a group has a negitive affect on building a reputation based system within the group. If all the spam & flames are filtered out from the list and we only see the "good" side of the posters then they will tend to gain greater reputation capital then they deserve. I do find the accusation that Sandy blocked the posting of a message critizing the company he works for rather troubling. Though there are several possibilities: 1 - It is just more FUD. 2 - Snafu. As I am sure everyone here is aware of that this happend more often than not with computer system. 3 - It's true. This would be realy sad and probably do irreparable harm to Sandy's reputation. I hope that it is #1 or #2 if it is #3 I doubt that I will stay any longer on the cypherpunks list. :( - -- - ----------------------------------------------------------- William H. Geiger III http://www.amaranth.com/~whgiii Geiger Consulting Cooking With Warp 4.0 Author of E-Secure - PGP Front End for MR/2 Ice PGP & MR/2 the only way for secure e-mail. Finger whgiii@amaranth.com for PGP Key and other info - ----------------------------------------------------------- Tag-O-Matic: I smashed a Window and saw... OS/2. -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: 2.6.2 Comment: Registered User E-Secure v1.1 0000000 iQCVAwUBMvvFdI9Co1n+aLhhAQFiMAP/ayWg1hO7tBJz/CgQriPcRcKuDSLwzv+4 zZ7qJ+tcx3ULoubEBfBZ1q1+PfJ41Ka4668I1n5d8sOVt9Xw2iBY3F+46cpwZDDh 1Uz3Ybyw3giOPNQzxpw44/LmOz9RxPYUPERUDAxSfmgs4SG3845AXUCjRWaoiHbN 5c1iYu96OwQ= =Gjv3 -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- Tag-O-Matic: Windows? WINDOWS?!? Hahahahahehehehehohohoho...
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- On Fri, 7 Feb 1997, William H. Geiger III wrote:
I do find the accusation that Sandy blocked the posting of a message critizing the company he works for rather troubling. Though there are several possibilities:
1 - It is just more FUD.
2 - Snafu. As I am sure everyone here is aware of that this happend more often than not with computer system.
3 - It's true. This would be realy sad and probably do irreparable harm to Sandy's reputation.
I hope that it is #1 or #2 if it is #3 I doubt that I will stay any longer on the cypherpunks list. :(
Count it as #3... Sandy didn't pass my response to one of Vulis' messages (asking for him to supply some evidence) to either list, and e-mailed me, telling me about it. |\/|ike Gurski mgursk1@umbc.edu http://www.gl.umbc.edu/~mgursk1/ finger/mail subject "send pgpkey"|"send index" Hail Eris! -><- O- |Member, 1024/39B5BADD PGP Keyprint=3493 A994 B159 48B7 1757 1E4E 6256 4570 | Team My opinions are mine alone, even if you should be sharing them. | OS/2 Senate Finance Committee Chair, SGA 1996-1997 -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: 2.6.2 Comment: I am not a number, I am a free man! iQCVAwUBMv4LFSKEMrE5tbrdAQGAJgP/XMOwPHGlEeyapjq/YboDKoJSAmasZulk 5nOyZGTZ4hVvb2L5EPTvRSFzKcqlxhBGPw/ww8aRjnKZjnubpeJ0xthxuLi6PQUC IAhTbJnQhoZ6q6fxMr4mv9syi8B9NXO0w0OSs3qp8CPMWYA+09JAEsthsgvsuT8V CQrRFWt5jGo= =BLNH -----END PGP SIGNATURE-----
Michael Gurski <mgursk1@umbc.edu> writes:
On Fri, 7 Feb 1997, William H. Geiger III wrote:
I do find the accusation that Sandy blocked the posting of a message critiz the company he works for rather troubling. Though there are several possibilities:
1 - It is just more FUD.
2 - Snafu. As I am sure everyone here is aware of that this happend more of than not with computer system.
3 - It's true. This would be realy sad and probably do irreparable harm to Sandy's reputation.
I hope that it is #1 or #2 if it is #3 I doubt that I will stay any longer the cypherpunks list. :(
Count it as #3... Sandy didn't pass my response to one of Vulis' messages (asking for him to supply some evidence) to either list, and e-mailed me, telling me about it.
Please post Sandfart's e-mail to this mailing list. Thank you. --- Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps
Timothy C. May wrote:
At 10:07 PM +0000 2/7/97, Against Moderation wrote:
Okay, I went through my old mail, and I'm fairly sure this is the message. I'm convinced it never went to the flames list, and now that I've found out I'm on the -unedited list after all, I think it probably didn't go to the regular cypherpunks list either. Can people on the various lists confirm this for me?
A lot of people out there are subscribing to the cypherpunks-flames and cypherpunks lists thinking that they will see everything that gets rejected (albeit with a substantial delay). If this is not the case, it should be made clear. Otherwise, it's not moderation, but dishonesty.
Normally I'd address just the list, but in this case I'm sure you'll understand. Check the archives of Sandy's moderation announcements, and I believe you'll see where he claimed that although *all* messages would make it to the -unedited list, he admitted that some of those would not make it to either the -edited or -flames lists, due to the anomalies of hand-editing.
participants (6)
-
Against Moderation -
Dale Thorn -
dlv＠bwalk.dm.com -
Michael Gurski -
Timothy C. May -
William H. Geiger III