Re: PA Remailer Concerns
At 2:13 AM 10/16/95, Futplex wrote:
I would very much like to see this law tested. I think it could prove fairly important to attack it with a well-planned, benign test case rather than wait for the next National Liberation spam or a death threat.
I don't live in PA, but I would be willing to participate as the defendant in a test case under the right circumstances. Presumably I would open an account with an ISP in Penna., set up a remailer on the account (need to find an ISP that clearly allows that), and have somebody send a message through it.
We would need to design a promising test case and find an attorney willing & able to offer pro bono services.
I'm not a lawyer, though I hang out on the "Cyberia" list and I watched a lot of the OJ trial. :-} Seriously, it is hard to "design a promising test case" in this way. They--the Pennsylvania law enforcement authorities--don't have to take the bait. They can just do nothing, until an incident arises which provokes them. Maybe next year, maybe five years from now. Such an incident is likely to be one that they figure will make for a popular prosecution. One of the Four Horseman, probably. --Tim May Views here are not the views of my Internet Service Provider or Government. ---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---- Timothy C. May | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money, tcmay@got.net 408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero Corralitos, CA | knowledge, reputations, information markets, Higher Power: 2^756839 | black markets, collapse of governments. "National borders are just speed bumps on the information superhighway."
On Sun, 15 Oct 1995, Timothy C. May wrote:
At 2:13 AM 10/16/95, Futplex wrote:
I would very much like to see this law tested. I think it could prove fairly important to attack it with a well-planned, benign test case rather than wait for the next National Liberation spam or a death threat.
I don't live in PA, but I would be willing to participate as the defendant in a test case under the right circumstances. Presumably I would open an account with an ISP in Penna., set up a remailer on the account (need to find an ISP that clearly allows that), and have somebody send a message through it.
We would need to design a promising test case and find an attorney willing & able to offer pro bono services.
I'm not a lawyer, though I hang out on the "Cyberia" list and I watched a lot of the OJ trial. :-}
Seriously, it is hard to "design a promising test case" in this way. They--the Pennsylvania law enforcement authorities--don't have to take the bait. They can just do nothing, until an incident arises which provokes them. Maybe next year, maybe five years from now. Such an incident is likely to be one that they figure will make for a popular prosecution. One of the Four Horseman, probably.
I must've missed that day from the O.J. trial. You are, of course, correct that you can't force the state to prosecute you. You might try the following, however, depending on Pennsylvania law (where I am not admitted, this isn't legal advice, you aren't my client, and all that other crap ...): Let's say someone decided to set up a commercial remailing service and had an aunt with an empty bedroom, phone lines, and a powerful computer which she only used to save her recipes. She happens to live in Pennsylvania, near an ISP that allows remailers ... She offers to help. You obtain the service of Pennsylvania counsel to advise you on the legal aspects of your proposed service. The lawyer refers you to the new statute and says it may be a problem. Your proposal's success or failure rides on the interpretation of the statute. So you instruct your lawyer to review the possibility of filing a civil suit for declaratory relief concerning the constitutionality of the statute and the interpretation of the statute. Your civil complaint frames the terms of the (public) debate and is the subject of any initial press coverage before the Pa. Attorney General has even heard of the suit....
--Tim May
Views here are not the views of my Internet Service Provider or Government. ---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---- Timothy C. May | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money, tcmay@got.net 408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero Corralitos, CA | knowledge, reputations, information markets, Higher Power: 2^756839 | black markets, collapse of governments. "National borders are just speed bumps on the information superhighway."
Not a lawyer on the Net, although I play one in real life. ********************************************************** Flame away! I get treated worse in person every day!!
Timothy C. May writes: [...]
One of the Four Horseman, probably. [...]
I feel really dumb, but what is that "Four Horseman" thing ? [i saw that several times quoted on the list but I never understood, nor found in faq,...] Thx in advance for enlighting me dl -- Laurent Demailly * http://hplyot.obspm.fr/~dl/ * Linux|PGP|Gnu|Tcl|... Freedom Prime#1: cent cinq mille cent cinq milliards cent cinq mille cent soixante sept munitions break $400 million in gold Chirac mururoa NORAD genetic
Laurent Demailly <dl@hplyot.obspm.fr> writes:
I feel really dumb, but what is that "Four Horseman" thing ? [i saw that several times quoted on the list but I never understood, nor found in faq,...]
You sure about the faq, grepping reveals: 8.3.4. "How will privacy and anonymity be attacked?" [...] - like so many other "computer hacker" items, as a tool for the "Four Horsemen": drug-dealers, money-launderers, terrorists, and pedophiles. 17.5.7. "What limits on the Net are being proposed?" [...] + Newspapers are complaining about the Four Horsemen of the Infocalypse: - terrorists, pedophiles, drug dealers, and money launderers ie the idea that hysterical media demonization is used as a tool to justify the net, a witch hunt. A tatic in general: if you can make something look bad in the eyes of the world, if you can sway public opinion, you can do what you wish, and be applauded for it. So, the spread of untrue, or greatly exaggerated stories, as a conscious ploy to obtain this effect. Popular tatic of Freeh at the moment. "Oh gosh people can get *bomb* making information on the internet, we must put a stop to this". How to get what you want in 4 easy stages: 1. Have a target "thing" you wish to stop, yet lack any moral, or practical reasons for doing so? 2. Pick a fear common to lots of people, something that will evoke a gut reaction: terrorists, pedophiles, serial killers. 3. Scream loudly to the media that "thing" is being used by perpetrators. (Don't worry if this is true, or common to all other things, or less common with "thing" than with other long established systems - payphones, paper mail, private hotel rooms, lack of bugs in all houses etc) 4. Say that the only way to stop perpetrators is to close down "thing", or to regulate it to death, or to have laws forcing en-mass tapability of all private communications on "thing". Don't worry if communicating on "thing" is a constitutionally protected right, if you have done a good job in choosing and publicising the horsemen in 2, no one will notice, they will be too busy clamouring for you to save them from the supposed evils. Adam
Sorry I'm late to the gate on this one, but from what I have read on the traffic concerning this law (I've been out of town a good bit lately, so I am playing catch-up) there's been a few aspects of this odious law that have been overlooked. What struck me in a most glaring manner are the constitutional issues surrounding this law. Specificly, aside from the remailer aspects of the law, they attempt to enact prior restraint on the publication of plans for electronic devices & the like. The aspects of the law that cover publication do not look as if they can pass constitutional muster. Especaily considering the supreme court here has recently ruled that it is permissible to publish unsigned political handbills and the like. Much like what the output of an anonymous remailer produces after all. Some of the issues they attempt to address in this law, are done so poorly, and with such ignorance of legal precedent and basic constitutional reference that I find it utterly amazing that the govenor would sign it, and that it would have been forwarded to him in the form they enacted. I do not think that the law is capable of surviving any sort of legal test based on much of what they've inserted. But I guess that's for the courts to decide. In any case, considering it's halloween, I would count the Pensilvania Govenor lucky if Ben Franklin doesn't rise from his grave and come strangle the bastard in his bed. As it is, I'm sure old Ben could probably be used as a good gyroscope with all the spinning in his grave that must be going on. Pennsilvania the cradle of liberty? Hah, it looks more like the cradle of repression to me. They sold liberty and their souls in a devils bargain for an illusory peace of mind with this one. Tim Scanlon ________________________________________________________________ tfs@vampire.science.gmu.edu (NeXTmail, MIME) Tim Scanlon George Mason University (PGP key avail.) Public Affairs I speak for myself, but often claim demonic possession
participants (5)
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aba＠dcs.exeter.ac.uk -
Brian Davis -
Laurent Demailly -
tcmay＠got.net -
Tim Scanlon