Re: Dorthy Denning is a boot-licking fasicist!!!
William H. Geiger III <whgiii@amaranth.com> wrote:
Dorthy Denning is a boot-licking fasicist!!!
Dorthy Denning gave the most pro-government speech I have ever heard. Is this clueless bitch on the government payroll?!!
Spelling please! "Dorothy". She is a US academic. It may be emotionally satisfying to rail against (what for us may be evident as) the wickedness and stupidity of our opponents. I did not see the testimony, so I can't comment on it. However I believe that Dorothy Denning is motivated as much as many of us by the desire for a healthy society. The sharp difference in crypto policy can probably be explained by a differing understanding of: 1 - The likely behaviour of professional criminals, normal people, government officials and criminal government officials in the future with various forms of crypto system. 2 - Different levels of trust and fear regarding crime in general, big-time crime in particular and the use and abuse of law enforcement and other government powers. 3 - Probably other things too. I think that there are different personality types at work here. Adding to that is the tendency for governments to employ people who generally trust governments, their desire to perpetuate their former abilities to detect and deter crime and especially the problem of *groupthink*. Groupthink is the tendency for like minded individuals to reject uncomfortable notions, and so develop a seriously inadequate understanding of reality. JFK admitted they were stupid to commence the Bay of Pigs invasion. Clinton will probably say the same thing about crypto export controls. There is clear evidence that, being surrounded by like minded advisers, both presidents were the victims of groupthink. If we nod our heads to "Dorthy Denning is a boot-licking fasicist!!!" then we too are succumbing to groupthink. See: http://www.ozemail.com.au/~firstpr/crypto/oecd_dr.htm for Dorothy Denning's response to my challenge for justifying costs of key-escrow/recovery against the likely benefit in crime reduction. I don't think it is a very strong response, and while many on this list will know more about her than I do, her response does not strike me as the work of someone who is unintelligent, uninterested in the future of society or a fascist. The net result of various misunderstandings (such as Clinton and Co. must have about the freely available nature of strong crypto) may well be stupidity on a grand scale. There are personality types who lean away from privacy and towards dangerous levels of government control. I think this can be amplified by the circumstances in which these people work - and groupthink is a big part of that. oecd_dr.htm is a recent draft of some OECD crypto work, with my comments, especially concerning the likely behaviour of criminals communicating both with other criminals and with non-criminals. It also has some information on an essay by Irving L. Janis called "Group Think" which I recommend to everyone who is involved in policy debates. - Robin . Robin Whittle . . http://www.ozemail.com.au/~firstpr firstpr@ozemail.com.au . . 11 Miller St. Heidelberg Heights 3081 Melbourne Australia . . Ph +61-3-9459-2889 Fax +61-3-9458-1736 . . Consumer advocacy in telecommunications, especially privacy . . . . First Principles - Research and expression - music, . . music industry, telecommunications . . human factors in technology adoption. . . . Real World Interfaces - Hardware and software, especially . . for music .
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- In message <199611271154.WAA26338@oznet02.ozemail.com.au>, Robin Whittle writes :
It may be emotionally satisfying to rail against (what for us may be evident as) the wickedness and stupidity of our opponents.
Indeed, making a habit calling anyone who disagrees with your stance leads to kneejerk behaviour, like that which is probably behind key-escrow (and the CDA, but that's not the point).
If we nod our heads to "Dorthy Denning is a boot-licking fasicist!!!" then we too are succumbing to groupthink.
Good point and a thoughtful post too! Derek Derek Bell dbell@maths.tcd.ie | "Donuts - is there _anything_ WWW: http://www.maths.tcd.ie/~dbell/index.html| they can't do?" PGPkey: http://www.maths.tcd.ie/~dbell/key.asc| - Homer Simpson -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: 2.6.3ia Charset: noconv iQCVAgUBMpyJnlXdSMogwMcZAQE14AP/UC7LfVgaGcXe/ojkq+Ci6p3ZrFEkUI46 VRTeEl8cvTtO5vojlJdY8Xok9bRytiE0jf1XqI7v++ixWauTL4ui4ef3sKYYZZ1L Ivd14DHviv9C5VKmnehrk5ZSJP1ns7HuA0nK742M09Q1eRXkeVgss4ykTCi1Oafg 122wnIi2BVc= =+9Wg -----END PGP SIGNATURE-----
From: Robin Whittle
Dorthy Denning is a boot-licking fasicist!!!
It may be emotionally satisfying to rail against (what for us may be evident as) the wickedness and stupidity of our opponents. [SNIP] If we nod our heads to "Dorthy Denning is a boot-licking fasicist!!!" then we too are succumbing to groupthink.
I must commend Robin for a well-said comment. It is truly counter-productive to insist on conspiracy theories and anti-government rhetoric. Sure, there have been conspiracies in the past. Sure, there have been more than our fair share of atrocities. However, the real issues are privacy, security, freedom of speech, and effective policy enforcement. When we start calling names like "jack booted thugs" and the like, we are sinking to the same low levels that Freeh and (more appropriately) Gorelick use when they cry wolf and foretell futuristic electronic meltdowns. More importantly, while the public is cynical and skeptical, it isn't exactly embracing the right-wing militia movements either. It would be a great disservice to the cause if cypherpunks were, in the minds of the public, tightly associated with the likes of Timothy McVey. Ern
Ernest Hua <hua@chromatic.com> writes:
It would be a great disservice to the cause if cypherpunks were, in the minds of the public, tightly associated with the likes of Timothy McVey.
Or Timothy C. May (fart), a clueless moron totally ignorant of cryptography. --- Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps
On Wed, 27 Nov 1996, Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM wrote:
Date: Wed, 27 Nov 96 20:53:11 EST From: "Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM" <dlv@bwalk.dm.com> To: cypherpunks@toad.com Subject: Re: Hurray! A good example of rational thinking ...
Ernest Hua <hua@chromatic.com> writes:
It would be a great disservice to the cause if cypherpunks were, in the minds of the public, tightly associated with the likes of Timothy McVey.
Or Timothy C. May (fart), a clueless moron totally ignorant of cryptography.
I suppose I'm an idiot for asking. But could you please knock it off? -- Forward complaints to : European Association of Envelope Manufactures Finger for Public Key Gutenbergstrasse 21;Postfach;CH-3001;Bern Vote Monarchist Switzerland
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- In <199611272000.MAA18790@server1.chromatic.com>, on 11/27/96 at 04:00 PM, Ernest Hua <hua@chromatic.com> said:
From: Robin Whittle
Dorthy Denning is a boot-licking fasicist!!!
It may be emotionally satisfying to rail against (what for us may be evident as) the wickedness and stupidity of our opponents. [SNIP] If we nod our heads to "Dorthy Denning is a boot-licking fasicist!!!" then we too are succumbing to groupthink.
I must commend Robin for a well-said comment.
It is truly counter-productive to insist on conspiracy theories and anti-government rhetoric. Sure, there have been conspiracies in the past. Sure, there have been more than our fair share of atrocities.
However, the real issues are privacy, security, freedom of speech, and effective policy enforcement. When we start calling names like "jack booted thugs" and the like, we are sinking to the same low levels that Freeh and (more appropriately) Gorelick use when they cry wolf and foretell futuristic electronic meltdowns.
More importantly, while the public is cynical and skeptical, it isn't exactly embracing the right-wing militia movements either. It would be a great disservice to the cause if cypherpunks were, in the minds of the public, tightly associated with the likes of Timothy McVey.
Not at all. We need more people shouting from the mountain tops at what are governments are doing. We are not as free as we were 10yrs ago. We are not as free as we were 100yrs ago. Hell we are not as free as we were under King George over 200yrs. ago!! The issue of cryptology is only one area of attack on our freedoms. Just one small piece in the Big Picture. Below are some of the some of the trends we have to look forward to: National ID's: - -------------- All citizens will be required to be registered with the state. The state will require any changes in address. The administration tried this once already with their failed "health care" plan. Tracking of movement of all citizens: - ------------------------------------- Experiments on this is going on right now with cellular phones that transmit location of cars. (actually the phones just send out a signal and the receivers triangulate on them). Also "alarm" systems that can be activated by police to transmit location of vehicles. (same principal as above). Display of documentation for all Public transport: - -------------------------------------------------- The Airlines are just a start. It should be noted that it is only a matter of time before travel permits are required. Display of documentation for Employment: - ---------------------------------------- Got to get those nasty Illegals. hmmm... How long before the right to work is considered a privilege? Electronic Cash: - ---------------- Paper & Coin money will be eliminated. Everyone will have their Debit cards in which all transactions will be recorded. This is currently being done with Credit Cards. IMHO anonymous e-cash will not survive government control. Automated Drift-Net Fishing of Phone conversations: - --------------------------------------------------- With the continued advance in Voice Recognition the police forces will soon put this technology to use. A prime example is the Fbi's request for the ability to tap 1% of all lines. The FBI has nowhere the staff or budget to make use of this many taps. They only way such a system is feasible is with automated systems searching for key words/phrases. Federal Thought Crimes: - ----------------------- Currently certain types of "political incorrect" speach are Illegal. As distasteful as the word "Niggar" is I don't not consider it a crime to say it regardless of how offensive it may be. Any while telling dirty jokes in front of one's secretary may not be polite I don't consider that illegal either. Will doing either of these will get you nailed on civil rights violations & sexual harassment charges. Others are treated as illegal even if not formally so. Bill Clinton after the Oklahoma bombings tried blaming "Rush Limbaugh" for the incident. Rush's crime?? Being opposed to the political party in power at the time. Internet Drift-Net Fishing: - --------------------------- Much simpler than the phone lines as everything is already in text (e-mail). GAK (THE BIG LIE): - ------------------ In all the Clipper proposals from the government it has always been said that it would be a voluntary system. This is the BIG LIE. For GAK to have a chance of working it must have the following qualities: 1) Mandatory. 2) All other forms of encryption must be made illegal. 3) Must be global. The administration is hard at work on #3 by putting pressure on its trading partners to go the GAK way. #1 & #2 wouldn't be made public policy until the infrastructure is in place. The EFF has recovered some documents through the Freedom of Information Act that state just that (what wasn't blocked out). Loss of property rights: - ------------------------ A couple of months ago Bill Clinton by Presidential Order STOLE over 1 million acres of land. This land contained some of the richest, low sulfur, coal fields in the country. Now you criticize me for not playing nice with people who either through deliberate planning or ignorance aid and abet the above policies?? Sorry but I will not. I am not a sheep & I will not lay down and be slaughtered. Now I am not calling for out & out anarchy but neither will I support or condone those who so blatantly disregard the Constitution, the Bill of Rights, and basic human rights & dignities. I was born a free man, in charge of my destiny, with inalienable right endowed by my creator. I will not be made a slave of the state but will fight and die a free man. - -- - ----------------------------------------------------------- William H. Geiger III http://www.amaranth.com/~whgiii Geiger Consulting WebExplorer & Java Enhanced!!! Cooking With Warp 4.0 Author of PGPMR2 - PGP Front End for MR/2 Ice Look for MR/2 Tips & Rexx Scripts Get Work Place Shell for Windows!! PGP & MR/2 the only way for secure e-mail. Finger whgiii@amaranth.com for PGP Key and other info - ----------------------------------------------------------- *MR/2 ICE: "Do your parents *know* you are Ramones?" - Ms. Togar -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: 2.6.2 iQCVAwUBMpzUI49Co1n+aLhhAQHu2gQAlBbVMGH0DEgPqkvCnkavPEcP12HZXevG hHmP9EPKOz5ON9E5BdhIYUeiCmQh8qIuG5DTIDAsFjCAsFqZjJfHlRv64RkYZv1Z RQQsVzJV/tXBP4FzhnOOpfWCzwOgaLVEL+YwxS09O87B693eLBKVtjptD89MUSOl GagJf8vygzY= =VdNx -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- *MR/2 ICE: Win3.1? For fast relief call 800-3-IBM-OS2.
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- On Wed, 27 Nov 1996, William H. Geiger III wrote:
We are not as free as we were 10yrs ago. We are not as free as we were 100yrs ago. Hell we are not as free as we were under King George over 200yrs. ago!!
If you honestly believe that we are less free than when trained and payed soldiers of the British army lived in the homes of unpaid, untrained American colonists in order to keep the colonists from working against the government, then you *REALLY* need to review your outlook on your life, and of history. --Deviant PGP KeyID = E820F015 Fingerprint = 3D6AAB628E3DFAA9 F7D35736ABC56D39 Without followers, evil cannot spread. -- Spock, "And The Children Shall Lead", stardate 5029.5 -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: 2.6.2 iQEVAwUBMp0lXzCdEh3oIPAVAQHd7Af+Lop1A4R0Y144THRVdp8op3chIDk/Gcoi LdZrRr9z6kio4Vsl56kX5CUaqC2uFWrr4cfxdPabZr4EiibQVa0V/51fuz6ZyNcu Hw6yQWehDZ7af19/sEyCb38iqhzhEopZN/pfxv74QpbIQyJ5/In6EiXV/bZnwAKw 7AumNg/6A9Bx6EChYOnfIhQ2iQqVKoh1rM16hgoUelryi7x7Si4dVz664bCY3RjV 3sy3cWSAlnciVLuWrTR2k5RGRs3vwDhrByFiY6qcbw/1NQCQR+HaRi6IGnnF4dO7 DF59egW850pbZRi6sok33j7lmC447KEVlSdwVzw6Uf/KCheZV42sGQ== =yF03 -----END PGP SIGNATURE-----
participants (7)
-
Black Unicorn -
Derek Bell -
dlv＠bwalk.dm.com -
Ernest Hua -
Robin Whittle -
The Deviant -
William H. Geiger III