RE: the black budget
"It took the Colonists several decades to get worked up enough to fight a war. We're only halfway through an equivalent time period. And I don't want to change the situation only with crypto, but also with public speech." Would you elaborate? Earlier, Tim May said something about using "the active spreading of disinformation about the compromise of the key escrow system" as part of the attempt to "Actively Sabotage Clipper and Capstone" (title of his message). What sort of public speeches would you (or others) make (to whom)? (Just curious) Blanc
How should Clipper be sabotaged and spoken against? Blanc Weber asks:
Would you elaborate? Earlier, Tim May said something about using "the active spreading of disinformation about the compromise of the key escrow system" as part of the attempt to "Actively Sabotage Clipper and Capstone" (title of his message).
What sort of public speeches would you (or others) make (to whom)? (Just curious)
Briefly, "Tell X to Y," where X and Y are the following: Tell them X: - Clipper is a wiretapping system - Clipper has more than one back door - Clipper keys have already been compromised by non-government entities - Clipper is for spying on foreign-based corporations - Clipper will be used to monitor corporations - Clipper chip makers (Mykotronx, VLSI Tech, National, etc.) have had their security systems breached - Clipper is Big Brother Tell this to Y: - your friends and your family...I tell everyone I meet (nearly) what a frightening and ludicrous thing the Clipper/Skipjack/Tessera systems is. (And I say the same thing about the "Information Data Superhighway" boondoggle.) - journalists (e.g., I informed John Markoff of some of these things, which he mostly knew about--he knows more than I do!-- and the strategy of disinformation and sabotage....it made it into his Sunday article...and I'm talking to two other journalists now) (I'm honest with journalists: I tell them upfront that a disinformation/sabotage campaign is underway and that they should thus take anything I say, or anyone else says, in this light. They're usually very bright and see these things anyway, so this clears the air. It is not a contradiction to tell them that a disinformation/sabotage campaign is underway and then to tell them about reports the Clipper chip manufacturers have had security compromises. And other such things.) - corporations...point out to them that Clipper isn't a real improvement, that it opens them up to casual monitoring by the tax and other authorities, and that their competitors will be able to buy the keys on the black market in not too long a time - radio call-in shows and the like. I called Dave Emory's show a while back and spoke against Clipper and the NSA. Dave Mandl interviewed me over a year ago for his radio show in New York. And I may be on a Santa Cruz radio show soon. John Gilmore and Eric Hughes, of course, have also been on radio and t.v. shows. (Don't be afraid to call Christian Right stations, either. You may not like all of their policies--I know I don't--but they're very paranoid government tracking, national identity cards, and 666-style numbers attached to them. The "700 Club" has come out staunchly against Clipper.) - foreigners...I get a real rise our of my overseas friends when I tell them what the National Security Agency has planned for them. (By the way, I've seen little discussion here of the fact that the Germans, French, and NATO nations in general seem to be signing on for some version of the Clipper system. I can provided details if there's interest. In all the debate a few weeks ago about whether Germany is more or less free than America, it was left out that Germany is about to roll back certain Constitutional freedoms and explicity allow more surveillance. We should not be pushing our German or European list members (a la Hadmut Danisch) into defending their countries--rather, they need to fight the fight as well. In fact, more Cypherpunks need to be recruited in Europe, which shows many signs of slipping back into a Surveillance State, with barely a whimper of public outcry.) --Tim May -- .......................................................................... Timothy C. May | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money, tcmay@netcom.com | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero 408-688-5409 | knowledge, reputations, information markets, W.A.S.T.E.: Aptos, CA | black markets, collapse of governments. Higher Power: 2^859433 | Public Key: PGP and MailSafe available. "National borders are just speed bumps on the information superhighway."
On Tue, 22 Feb 1994, Timothy C. May wrote: [Much stuff deleted...]
- foreigners...I get a real rise our of my overseas friends when I tell them what the National Security Agency has planned for them.
(By the way, I've seen little discussion here of the fact that the Germans, French, and NATO nations in general seem to be signing on for some version of the Clipper system. I can provided details if there's interest. In all the debate a few weeks ago about whether Germany is more or less free than America, it was left out that Germany is about to roll back certain Constitutional freedoms and explicity allow more surveillance. We should not be pushing our German or European list members (a la Hadmut Danisch) into defending their countries--rather, they need to fight the fight as well. In fact, more Cypherpunks need to be recruited in Europe, which shows many signs of slipping back into a Surveillance State, with barely a whimper of public outcry.)
Yes, there is an interest. Please provide whatever information you have on "European Clipperism". I haven't seen any discussion or reports on any such initiatives in Norwegian media. I suppose that there isn't a "critical mass" of interested people in small countries like Norway for these issues. There has been one attempt by one Norwegian party (Venstre) to raise questions on personal privacy issues, but without any success. (This party has been out of parlament for a while and has some trouble getting heard.) Work has been done by official Norwegian agencies to develop a National Encryption Standard (NSK). The result of this work is a classified algorithm and a chip which implements it, much like the Clipper initiative. There was also a suggestion about something like a key escrow system, but this seems to have been dropped. NSK has had some press coverage, most notably in a left-wing paper (Klassekampen) and Computerworld Norway. In a speech held by one of the organizers of the NSK project some two years ago, it was indicated that NSK was developed partly to assure Norwegian control of the algorithm and independence of foreign algorithms. Could other Europeans provide information on similar activities in other countries?? By the way, I agree with those who oppose disinformation on Clipper and related issues. Such strategies will likely hit you like a boomerang. The clarification by TCM on what he meant by "disinformation" was welcome. I, and it seems others who opposed the disinformation strategy, understand this world differently than TCM. -- Rolf ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Rolf Michelsen Phone: +47 73 59 87 33 SINTEF DELAB Email: rolf.michelsen@delab.sintef.no 7034 Trondheim Office: C339 Norway ----------------------------------------------------------------------
My use of the term "disinformation" seems to have taken on a life of its own as "lying," with several posters saying that the truth is best, that lying is bad, and that if we have to lie we deserve to have Clipper and Capstone! What I urge--and others are free to do as they wish--is to "educate" people by describing to them the implications as we see them. That is, we who have thought about Clipper and have seen past government depredations and abuses, have seen from the beginning how Clipper is likely to be abused, how the very concept of key escrow is anathema to basic rights, how Clipper and its Big Brethren (I just coined this) are likely to be made mandatory, etc. We see truth, not the charade of "voluntarism" and the "social need" cited by the authorities. So, is it "truthful" to tell people Clipper is a purely voluntary standard, which is the official position? Is it "disinformation" to undermine public support for Clipper by pointing to the very likely (but unprovable, until it happens) banning of alternatives? (The difficulty of banning alternatives is another issue, of course.) I don't advocate ever using out-and-out lies, which is why I said the following in my post this morning:
Briefly, "Tell X to Y," where X and Y are the following:
Tell them X:
- Clipper is a wiretapping system
Is there any doubt about this?
- Clipper has more than one back door
This is more speculative, but fits what folks as eminent as Whit Diffie have discussed. Backdoors in the escrow system and in the Skipjack algorithm must be assumed to exist until the algorithm has been publically discussed, analyzed, tested, etc...and maybe still even then. I tell folks the history of other such algorithms, including the speculations about DES. I point out that Skipjack is completely secret, and the original key escorw procedure has been changed since announcement, suggesting a more direct way in was planned from the gitgo.
- Clipper keys have already been compromised by non-government entities
This I will concede is probably not the case. And I suppose I wouldn't make this claim until more evidence comes out. But as soon as there are hints that unauthorized wiretaps have occurred, or that foreign phone calls mean the keys are revealed, etc., this will likely be a true statement. I suspect it's close to being true.
- Clipper is for spying on foreign-based corporations
No doubts.
- Clipper will be used to monitor corporations
No doubts. Foreign subsidiaries mean the NSA can tap, without warrants. The Criminal Enforcement division of the IRS does not require warrants, I've been told by a fellow Cypherpunk (but I haven't confirmed this).
- Clipper chip makers (Mykotronx, VLSI Tech, National, etc.) have had their security systems breached
Recall the "dumpster diving" episode? And there's some stuff about National's PCMCIA card product that I'm not free to talk about, but it indicates further leaks are happening.
- Clipper is Big Brother
A polemical statement, but not a lie. So, of 7 statements, 5 truths, 1 marginal truth, and 1 wild speculation.
- journalists (e.g., I informed John Markoff of some of these things, which he mostly knew about--he knows more than I do!-- and the strategy of disinformation and sabotage....it made it into his Sunday article...and I'm talking to two other journalists now)
(I'm honest with journalists: I tell them upfront that a disinformation/sabotage campaign is underway and that they should thus take anything I say, or anyone else says, in this light. They're usually very bright and see these things anyway, so this clears the air. It is not a contradiction to tell them that a disinformation/sabotage campaign is underway and then to tell them about reports the Clipper chip manufacturers have had security compromises. And other such things.)
Disinformation does not necessarily mean outright lying...it often means putting a twist on things to make a point and to undermine confidence in the opponent's party line. Call it counter-propaganda if you wish. By all means, tell the truth. But be sure to tell what you expect to be the long-term truth, not just the immediate, official truth. I tell people the governments of the world are clearly planning for bans on unapproved, unescrowed encryption. The governments would call this a lie, saying the Clipper and its Big Brethren are purely voluntary standards. So who is lying? --Tim May -- .......................................................................... Timothy C. May | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money, tcmay@netcom.com | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero 408-688-5409 | knowledge, reputations, information markets, W.A.S.T.E.: Aptos, CA | black markets, collapse of governments. Higher Power: 2^859433 | Public Key: PGP and MailSafe available. "National borders are just speed bumps on the information superhighway."
On Tue, 22 Feb 1994, Timothy C. May wrote:
By the way, I've seen little discussion here of the fact that the Germans, French, and NATO nations in general seem to be signing on for some version of the Clipper system. I can provided details if there's interest.
Please do! Anything about Sweden? I saw some message a few days back mentioning that .uk and .se allegedly had applied for Country Family Keys. My first thaught was that this belonged to the disinformation campaign... There has been zero public information about that here. //Mats
And I don't want to change the situation only with crypto, but also with public speech."
What sort of public speeches would you (or others) make (to whom)?
Public speech is not a series of public speeches, but rather one's own words spoken openly and without shame. Tim has answered your question admirably. Here is part of my answer: "I desire a society where all may speak freely about whatever topic they will. I desire that all people might be able to choose to whom they wish to speak and to whom they do not wish to speak. I desire a society where all people may have an assurance that their words are directed only at those to whom they wish. Therefore I oppose all efforts by governments to eavesdrop and to become unwanted listeners." You may quote me, as always, but I would rather you spoke your own feelings. Eric
participants (5)
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Blanc Weber -
hughes＠ah.com -
Mats Bergstrom -
Rolf Michelsen -
tcmay＠netcom.com