Re: Fw: Re: ITAR satellite provision
At 07:17 AM 10/3/96 -0400, Black Unicorn wrote:
On Thu, 3 Oct 1996, Remo Pini wrote:
* A launch vehicle or payload shall not, by reason of the launching * of such vehicle, be considered an export for purposes of this * subchapter. Okay, everybody, call Estes! We've got some crypto to export...er...laun ch! If I get the above wording correctly (unicorn, help me!), it is sufficient to put the cryptostuff on a disc in a LAUNCHABLE device, it never says that
Date: Thu Oct 03 08:08:42 1996 the payload has to be delivered by air. So, just put that thing in a bag and get it through customs... (or does "by reason of ..." mean that the exclusive means of export allowed is launching ?)
The launching alone will not cause it to be an export. If it is launched and then ends up outside the U.S., it could be an export. Certainly if it is launched with the purpose of exporting crypto, it will be an export.
Too bad you didn't support this with a logical argument. The wording was clearly intended to be an exception to a rule. What the wording doesn't include is the "exception to the exception," most likely because they weren't thinking in too great a detail when they wrote the regulations. But if the regulation is "wrong," the fault of that is those who wrote the regulation. (and we, the public, are entitled to assume that the regulation is "right" in its literal meaning.) It appears that the government left a loophole so large that you could drive a truck...er...shoot a rocket through it. Jim Bell jimbell@pacifier.com
On Thu, 3 Oct 1996, jim bell wrote:
At 07:17 AM 10/3/96 -0400, Black Unicorn wrote:
On Thu, 3 Oct 1996, Remo Pini wrote:
* A launch vehicle or payload shall not, by reason of the launching * of such vehicle, be considered an export for purposes of this * subchapter. Okay, everybody, call Estes! We've got some crypto to export...er...laun ch! If I get the above wording correctly (unicorn, help me!), it is sufficient to put the cryptostuff on a disc in a LAUNCHABLE device, it never says that
Date: Thu Oct 03 08:08:42 1996 the payload has to be delivered by air. So, just put that thing in a bag and get it through customs... (or does "by reason of ..." mean that the exclusive means of export allowed is launching ?)
The launching alone will not cause it to be an export. If it is launched and then ends up outside the U.S., it could be an export. Certainly if it is launched with the purpose of exporting crypto, it will be an export.
Too bad you didn't support this with a logical argument.
I invite you to study law and with it the doctrine of "plain meaning."
The wording was clearly intended to be an exception to a rule. What the wording doesn't include is the "exception to the exception," most likely because they weren't thinking in too great a detail when they wrote the regulations.
They were thinking in enough detail here. Thankfully, along with the title political scientist, Mr. Bell also never had a calling as an attorney. "A launch vehicle or payload shall not, by reason of the launching of such vehicle, be considered an export for purposes of this subchapter." Focus on "by reason of launching of such vehicle," Launching a vehicle alone is not export. It takes more than launch to make it an export. More than the launching is not much. If they wanted to be as inclusive as you would suggest, they would have left out "by reason of launching of such vehicle." leaving "A launch vehicle or payload shall not be considered an export for purposes of this subchapter." I do get tired of Mr. Bell's half baked attempts to derail any point I might make. I wouldn't find them annoying if they were based in anything like fact rather than some innane and childish attempt to recover the credibility he so sorely lost in trying to argue with me months ago. My only regret is that I was so tolerant and patent that I bothered to respond to most of his lunacy.
But if the regulation is "wrong," the fault of that is those who wrote the regulation. (and we, the public, are entitled to assume that the regulation is "right" in its literal meaning.)
It is "right" in its literal meaning. You, being anything but a representative of the public, are wrong in intrepreting it.
It appears that the government left a loophole so large that you could drive a truck...er...shoot a rocket through it.
One might say the same about the size of the hole in your logic and good sense. One would have the advantage of being more accurate in this instance as well.
Jim Bell jimbell@pacifier.com
-- I hate lightning - finger for public key - Vote Monarchist unicorn@schloss.li
On Thu, 3 Oct 1996, Black Unicorn wrote:
Date: Thu, 3 Oct 1996 17:07:47 -0400 (EDT) From: Black Unicorn <unicorn@schloss.li> To: jim bell <jimbell@pacifier.com> Cc: Remo Pini <rp@rpini.com>, cypherpunks@toad.com Subject: Re: Fw: Re: ITAR satellite provision
[...]
"A launch vehicle or payload shall not, by reason of the launching of such vehicle, be considered an export for purposes of this subchapter."
Focus on "by reason of launching of such vehicle,"
Launching a vehicle alone is not export. It takes more than launch to make it an export. More than the launching is not much. [...] -- I hate lightning - finger for public key - Vote Monarchist unicorn@schloss.li
So.. if I were to take PGP, put it on a floppy disk, tape it to a model rocket, and launch it across the mexican border, that's not exporting it (although the FAA might complain)? --Deviant "Whatever you do will be insignificant, but it is very important that you do it." --Mahatma Gandhi
On Fri, 4 Oct 1996, The Deviant wrote:
On Thu, 3 Oct 1996, Black Unicorn wrote:
Date: Thu, 3 Oct 1996 17:07:47 -0400 (EDT) From: Black Unicorn <unicorn@schloss.li> To: jim bell <jimbell@pacifier.com> Cc: Remo Pini <rp@rpini.com>, cypherpunks@toad.com Subject: Re: Fw: Re: ITAR satellite provision
[...]
"A launch vehicle or payload shall not, by reason of the launching of such vehicle, be considered an export for purposes of this subchapter."
Focus on "by reason of launching of such vehicle,"
Launching a vehicle alone is not export. It takes more than launch to make it an export. More than the launching is not much. [...] -- I hate lightning - finger for public key - Vote Monarchist unicorn@schloss.li
So.. if I were to take PGP, put it on a floppy disk, tape it to a model rocket, and launch it across the mexican border, that's not exporting it (although the FAA might complain)?
Incorrect. That is exporting it. Launching it is not exporting it. Causing it to land in Mexico is.
--Deviant "Whatever you do will be insignificant, but it is very important that you do it." --Mahatma Gandhi
-- I hate lightning - finger for public key - Vote Monarchist unicorn@schloss.li
participants (4)
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Black Unicorn -
jim bell -
Klaus E. vonEbel
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The Deviant