(As per my last message, I have deleted all of the mailing lists except Cypherpunks.) At 7:51 PM -0700 9/7/98, Black Unicorn wrote:

I am constantly amused at the attitude of Americans who are convinced that anyone who lives outside of the "end-all-be-all of the civilized world" must live in some third world country. This too is nonsense. If I were jurisdiction shopping I'm not sure I'd pick a small African nation, as some others have, because this state would be extremely unlikely to protect me from the kind of nastiness that nations are expected to protect citizens from. Also, visa-free travel is a pretty big consideration. Picking a country not well established in this regard is folly.

I'm not going to criticize Vince for his decision to go with Mozambique...but.... Seems not to too long ago Mozambique was a semi-Communists African dictatorship, involved in various wars with RSA (the original one). And various killings of Westerners, and so on. But I may be misremembering. And Mozambique may have changed (or, rather, the ruler may have changed). But it seems to me that perhaps paying $5000 for Mozambiquan (sp?) citizenship will buy just about that amount of protections. Vince is probably safe enough. But if ever gets into a snit at some border, or if the U.S. seeks an extradition (not that I am predicting this, as crypto is still too obscure for such headline-grabbing efforts), I rather doubt the Mozambiquan consulate or embassy will lift even a little toe to help. Were I to expatriate, I'd pick a more stable country, like Switzerland or the other countries BU often speaks of. Or I'd just travel around and count on their being little nexus of my activities. (Which would be my main strategy: use the very cryptographic technologies we support to virtualize the activities and make the whole issue moot. This would require a fair amount of care in using the tools consistently, without any slip-ups, but it seems doable. With care, one could run a crypto development effort from some pleasant U.S. locale with no means of proving any U.S. laws were being broken. Sameer seems to be doing it even fairly openly, so imagine how much more secure someone who never publicized his role could be?)

Some of you who want a counterpoint based on something a bit more substantial than provincial fear mongering might ask after Tim May, who I recall considered departing the United States but decided against it for a variety of reasons.

Well, I'm in a somewhat different position from either Vince, who has renounced, or Ryan, who is merely residing in the sunny Caribbean for some amount of time. * My assets are inextricably known to the IRS, SEC, and suchlike, via the rules about stock ownership, transfer agents, etc. (Even had I wanted to "hide" my assets as long ago as the early 80s, it would have been effectively too late.) * There may be ways I could flee the U.S. and get my assets out. Merely taking my _certificates_ out is of course not nearly enough. Certificates are not bearer instruments. Wiring my assets out may work, but is risky. (Were I more serious about fleeing, I would know more about this. But I am not, so I haven't looked into this in detail.) * Oh, and this kind of flight by me would probably complicate my life in various ways. While BU says he knows of various tax fugitives who still cross back into the U.S., I know of others who don't feel comfortable doing so, even in sneaking back i across border crossings like Tijuana. (And Marc Rich, at the extreme end in wealth, is unable to return to the U.S., due to warrants out for his detention on tax evasion and securities charges.) * What I dislike the most about the U.S. system are things like the gun control laws, the tax rates, the welfare system, and the increasing surveillance. Alas, most of the best havens are worse in some ways than the U.S. (Most Caribbean nations alow no guns. Monaco has surveillance cameras in all public places and does not like having "outspoken" residents...the Prince may revoke citizenship on a whim and if a resident draws too much attention to his little fiefdom. Several major European countries are more thoroughgoingly statist than the U.S.) * Anyway, I also _like_ a lot here in the U.S. I like the Constitution, esp. the earlier, more libertarian parts. I like the scenery. I like the freedom to travel. I like being able to get on my motorcycle and ride for as long as I want with no pesky border crossings, no requirement to present my passport at hotels, no police demanding "papers," and no 70% wealth confiscation tax rates like some countries have. (No doubt not all countries have all or most of these things. Enough do. And as John Walker, founder of Autodesk and expatriate to Switzerland said, moving to Switzerland from California will NOT lower one's tax rate.) * I'm a Californian and I like the pleasant Mediterranean climate. (BTW, I lived for a year on the French Riviera in the 1960s and have visited a couple of times since. Neither France nor Monaco nor Italy is a viable place for me, for various reasons.) I wish Vince, Ryan, and all the others well. --Tim May "The tree of liberty must be watered periodically with the blood of tyrants...." ---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---- Timothy C. May | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money, ComSec 3DES: 408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA | knowledge, reputations, information markets, Licensed Ontologist | black markets, collapse of governments.