Ray Cromwell writes:

On the other hand, the list also tries to perform a useful function for many people which is to filter down the enormous amount of chatter conversation out there to make it easier to read. It's interesting to note that the people who left the list were not leaving because of our tight copyright rules but because they disliked the code-of-conduct rules with respect to politeness and the enforcement of them.

I hope Ray was not counting me in with those who left the Extropian list because they "disliked the code-of-conduct rules with respect to politeness and the enforcement of them." I left for a number of reasons, most of which I chose not to spell out when I left. Of the several notable folks who left, for various reasons I'm sure, Hal Finney left long before this issue arose, Perry Metzger became dormant also before this issue arose, I left in January for these aforementioned multiple reasons, and the only one I know of who left over a conflict such as Ray describes was Vince Kirchner, who left the list a few days after I did (I missed the big blow-up). The Extropians are a fine bunch, and I enjoyed my 18 months on the list. Ultimately, it was taking too much of my time for too little new information in return, certain folks were treating the "Extropian Principles 2.0" as a kind of catechism to be quoted to doubters, and the personal invective was intensifying. I chose to leave and to use the saved time to learn to play the electric guitar....seriously. I had great fun with the concept of the "PPL" (privately-produced law) justice system. At the encouragement of Harry Shapiro and other list folks, I was the first to create an independent PPL, which I dubbed "Mr. May's Greater Extropia." (You may see the reference to "Snow Crash.") My PPL agreed to hear cases from other PPLs at the reasonable rate of $100 an hour....$100 in real, U.S. currency. (This could not argued against, as surely the Extropians could not argue for wage-price controls!) This was received in good humor by Harry, at least from his comments to me, and was not the source of my leaving. It is true that Max More, the Extropian Maximalus, and I did exchange some harsh words, mostly over Max's dislike of my pointing out some disturbing parallels between Extropianism and certain religions. I don't believe Max is a huckster, a la L. Ron Hubbard and Dianetics/Scientology, but it is also the case that I found nothing personally very interesting or satisfying in centering arguments around ideas like "Dynamic Optimism" and "Unbounded Rationality" (I never did learn the exact wording of the Five Principles, so bear with me). I remain on good terms with the many Extropian folks who I see at Bay Area events and parties, and I even talked to Max at a party several weeks ago. I wish them well, as our interests often coincide (and many are on the Cypherpunks list), but I have some doubts that membership will grow significantly--the type of bright, independent, anarcho-capitalist folks drawn to discussions of the sort Extropians like to engage in are seldom interested in dogma, even if the dogma is Rational and Dynamically Optimistic. Whatever reasons I had for leaving the Extropians list are complex...but I suspect you can all tell from my skeptical tone above that my reasons had more to do with disenchantment with the general tone of the group than it had to do with any kind of rejection of the concept of codes-of-conduct (something I used to argue _for_, as Ray and Harry can attest). I just wanted to set the record straight. I know that Ray did not single me out in his comments, but I think it's safe to say that my departure was a high-profile event, due to my many postings to their list, and so Ray's comments might be taken to apply to me. No false modesty from me. I support Ray's point about the value of mailing lists in creating the kind of "private spaces" I've been talking about. A mailing list is essentially just that, a "private space."

I think mailing lists do a much better job of filtering than usenet where membership to a discussion group can not be moderated or limited. (it doesn't work in practice. it usually kills the group or e-sociopaths just bypass the insecurity of the system) I like AOL's "auditorium" model.

And I support Ray's point that we need both improved remailer features _and_ some concept of digital postage. I hope Ray can pull this off. --Tim May -- .......................................................................... Timothy C. May | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money, tcmay@netcom.com | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero 408-688-5409 | knowledge, reputations, information markets, W.A.S.T.E.: Aptos, CA | black markets, collapse of governments. Higher Power: 2^859433 | Public Key: PGP and MailSafe available. "National borders are just speed bumps on the information superhighway."