A million monkeys operating under the pseudonym "Alex le Heux <alexlh@xs4all.nl>" typed:
Hey HEY! It's the man who nearly managed to single-handedly derail the PGP legal export hack by playing the block rocking beats (all vinyl) which inspired the vacationing hackers to spill the drinks on the source books. But in his defense, he also nurtured the cpunks network in between sets. Welcome to the list! Zooko the Mysterieux P.S. MP3 is coooool. CDNow.com needs to start selling MP3's in return for digital cash small change! P.P.S. No really-- I'm _not_ a cypherpunk, because cypherpunks appear to be overwhelmed with blind, self-destructive bloodlust since 1996 or so. I'm just here to try talking some sense into the salvageable ones.
The paper today said something about a rash of "Poetic Terrorism" going on in New Orleans. Boxes of random poetry manifestoes showing up around town, stuff tacked to billboards, toasters and other unexplained objects in artistically arranged spaces, demands for official poetry-readings by the police department. A couple of suspects. Somebody's been reading Hakim Bey again.... http://www.unicorn.com//lib/taz.html # Thanks; Bill # Bill Stewart, +1-415-442-2215 stewarts@ix.netcom.com # You can get PGP outside the US at ftp.ox.ac.uk/pub/crypto/pgp # (If this is a mailing list or news, please Cc: me on replies. Thanks.)
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
And there is Clinton's Anti-Terrorism Act, which explicitly makes certain kinds of financial and other activities illegal, even by Americans, which involve support of "terrorist" organizations. It is not inconceivable that, following outlawing of strong crypto in various countries, that the Cypherpunks group gets classified as an organization or group which supports terrorist goals, which is almost certainly true.)
State is lagging in issuing the terrorist organization list required by this law. It is believed that they are chicken because most of the groups would be Moslem groups and this would be considered a politically incorrect denigration of a "protected group." Then they'd have to put the IRA on the list as well and that would cause controversy. If they never issue the list... In any case, I don't think that we have to worry because we don't fund anyone. We just send non-cash bits. The law requires that a foreign terrorist group on the "Attorney General's List" (actually State Department) receive money or physical support. I suppose remailers could be targetted but that would make for an interesting case since anonymnity remains protected. DCF -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: PGP for Personal Privacy 5.0 Charset: noconv iQCVAwUBM/m1e4VO4r4sgSPhAQHXpAQAybcf69TTBLv8BpCZxJ+c6voZLHyd01Yo bLmYzXc4wMJ/mSOcn0YpJ+0X3nwdWBUiPv3SoWxUHVjGTLsHR+a8Py7POfDZ5Yxf roGnPSyhNwp0ItQONGE1BErNbz7fVOHXdhitPotIXdYeflTV1N0HWZnPPkToX/Sh D1HqJ2osUWQ= =ZL9P -----END PGP SIGNATURE-----
At 12:19 PM -0700 8/18/97, Zooko Journeyman wrote:
P.P.S. No really-- I'm _not_ a cypherpunk, because cypherpunks appear to be overwhelmed with blind, self-destructive bloodlust since 1996 or so. I'm just here to try talking some sense into the salvageable ones.
Yes, "B.", so you keep saying. Fact is, many who remain on the list are reacting to government actions which are far more "intense" than what we had seen in the 1992-4 period. Things like the doublespeak of "mandatory voluntary" programs, the probable illegalization of tools to protect communications, and the "New World Order" machinations. (These being the behind the scenes pressures being applied to European and Asian governments, vis-a-vis Wasenaar, OECD, the secret meetings, the Orwellian language the governments are adopting to describe "trusted third parties (who actually provide keys to the authorities without telling the customer)," etc.) Not to mention the "felonization" of increasing numbers of things. Physical things that were bought fully legally are now "contraband." Except to cops, who are buying them in ever-increasing amounts. The sheeple, though, cannot be trusted to own the things the cops own freely. And I'm talking about more than just "compliance tools" (aka toilet plungers). As to us being more violent, I think this is utter bullshit, "B." Read the archived traffic of the list in the period surrounding the burning of the illegal religion in Waco, Texas. Or the traffic after a wife and son were killed by the cop criminal Lon Horiuchi (whom some militia members have placed a bounty on...the Feds have apparently placed this killer into the Witness Security Program, run, ironically, by the same U.S. Marshal's Service now in charge of Jim Bell's detention!) I think you, "B.," have just gotten a lot more nervous that what many of us are advocating is in fact warfare against the State. I get e-mail from folks who were once active on the Cypherpunks list saying, in various ways, that they can no longer be as visible about their participation in the list, for multiple reasons. First, the rise of search engines, archives, and employers routinely running DejaNews and other search engine checks on potential employees and consultants to see what sorts of folks they are. (Whether being active on the Cypherpunks list will nix a job is pretty unlikely, but it's still a worry to some.) Second, the apparent state of war between Cypherpunks and governments. After recent actions by freedom fighters to bomb stooge facilities, governments are treating "militias" as quasi-criminal organizations. (There are many nuances to this point. In the U.S., I don't think such organizations have been outlawed, as the Constitution remains a protection of sorts. But many have been investigated, and, as John Young noted recently, the IRS treats membership in certain organizations as a threat. And there is Clinton's Anti-Terrorism Act, which explicitly makes certain kinds of financial and other activities illegal, even by Americans, which involve support of "terrorist" organizations. It is not inconceivable that, following outlawing of strong crypto in various countries, that the Cypherpunks group gets classified as an organization or group which supports terrorist goals, which is almost certainly true.) Third, some of those who make the most extreme calls for the killing of Feds, the bombing of government operations in various nations, etc., are using remailers. Isn't this exactly what remailers are likely to be used for? Fourth, the arrest and prosecution of Jim Bell, with tax evasion and a minor stink bomb case turned into a "federal case" because of his controversial views. This has obviously angered and radicalized many. Some of us have stocked up on more asault weapons and shotguns, placed alarms around our property, and we are expecting a "raid." As I have said, if black-clad ninja raiders try to hit me, I'll assume they're "home invaders" and will open fire. (A Sheriff's Deputy once told me that even saying I would defend my home against unwelcome intruders constituted a "threat" and that he might order a detachment to visit my compound. So far, two years later, he hasn't made good on _his_ threat. And now I'm more ready for him than ever.) Fifth, the censorship fiasco on the list angered many of us. After it ended, many of us were no longer quite as willing to be "helpful." I, for example, no longer write _any_ introductory essays, nor do I waste my time encouraging people not to be too flamism. I used to occasionally do this, filling a kind of "elder statesmen" or "eminence grise" role, as some others expressed it. No more. If my posts were being censored, which they were, then the removal of censorship caused me--and apparently others--to "call a spade a spade." So when "DeathMonger" calls for the killing of Feds, who am I to suggest this discussion be squelched? Forcible censorship, once tried, often makes it effectively impossible for _any_ kind of guidance or advice along these lines. (This is an utterly predictable outcome of attempts to censor.) Finally, and to recap some of these points, when the Cypherpunks list and group first started, many did not take the "collapse of government" promises too seriously. Now, with even Louis Freeh and Janet Reno saying that strong crypto represents a major and urgent threat to governments (they call it "law enforcement" and "tax collection," and also talk about threats of unregulated gambling, unregulated access to medical data, uncontrolled communication between cult members, and so on), it seems that the dangers of crypto anarchy are being more widely trumpeted. This has the effect of making what we actually say here seem more "plausibly scary." I don't know if this is why some are avoiding the list now, or for other reasons (the list has never full recovered from the censorship fiasco So, "B.," stop apologizing for reading the list. You're already a marked man in their eyes...and search engines can already identify the True Name who is posting the last year or two as "Zooko Journeyman." In a couple of years, all search engines will have "known aliases" macros to automatically ferret out the web of pseudonyms linkable to a poster. You can run, but you can't hide. And "democracy" is spinning out of control, being used by authoritarians to convert the world into a security state. Restrictions on travel, new drug laws, laws against images and words on the Net, and thousands of new laws every years. A frontal assault, using strong crypto to aid in the attacks by freedom fighters and to destablize authority, makes more sense. When a government official decrees that citizen-units may no longer do certain things which were once quite legal and quite common (such as owning a gun for defense), that official must expect certain repercussions. We're in a state of war with the statists and tyrants. It's what Jefferson and the other Founders expected to happen, and now the watering with the blood of patriots and tyrants is happening. It's what the Founders expected. Get used to it. If crypto anonymity tools were available to the Founders, they'd have used them against the British. Likewise, strong crypto is already being used by the freedom fighters in Palestine against the Zionist Occupation Government. That PGP 5.0 is being used by Hamas should send chills through the ZOG in Jerusalem, and is probably why Cypherpunks is about to be classed as a "terrorist group." (What happened to the Jews in WW II was terrible, of course, but that was no excused for forcibly evicting vast numbers of "sand niggers" so as to make room for Jewish settlers. Their sons and grandsons will now end up paying the price, as freedom fighters drive them into the sea. Broken eggs and all.) --Tim May There's something wrong when I'm a felon under an increasing number of laws. Only one response to the key grabbers is warranted: "Death to Tyrants!" ---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---- Timothy C. May | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money, tcmay@got.net 408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA | knowledge, reputations, information markets, Higher Power: 2^1398269 | black markets, collapse of governments. "National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."
At 9:35 PM -0700 8/18/97, Brad Dolan wrote:
CBS must be going for the propaganda suck-up award this year.
Following tonight's "Chicago Hope," which dumped an immense wad of socialist propaganda on us ("Health care is a right!" "No one should ever profit off a sick child."), the local news ran a CBS-produced feature about the internet. First half showed how cute bunny-rabbit cartoons can educate your little hothouse genius. Second half then explained how there are {gasp} dirty *sex* sites out there that junior could accidentally stumble across. Obviously, something *must* be done.
Feature included a representative teen who manfully resists the temptation to look at the feelthy pictures, 16-year-old Tim May of California.
I'm not making this up.
I wonder if it's an accident or a deliberate middle-finger from the propagandists?
They finally aired that interview? I did that a couple of years ago. I got my first Internet account when I was 12, about a year before I got started in the Cypherpunks group. But I'm 18 now, and fully authorized by the State to look at dirty pictures, on or off the Net. --Tim, yes, _that_ one. There's something wrong when I'm a felon under an increasing number of laws. Only one response to the key grabbers is warranted: "Death to Tyrants!" ---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---- Timothy C. May | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money, tcmay@got.net 408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA | knowledge, reputations, information markets, Higher Power: 2^1398269 | black markets, collapse of governments. "National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- At 11:02 AM 8/19/97 -0400, Duncan Frissell wrote:
State is lagging in issuing the terrorist organization list required by this law. It is believed that they are chicken because most of the groups would be Moslem groups and this would be considered [...] IRA ...
In any case, I don't think that we have to worry because we don't fund anyone. We just send non-cash bits. The law requires that a foreign terrorist group on the "Attorney General's List" (actually State Department) receive money or physical support.
I've never sent real gold or silver money to the terrorist groups _I_ support. Maybe some pieces of paper with my writing and some MICR, or maybe some notes from the Fed that promise to pay in US dollars, but certainly no money... -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: PGP for Personal Privacy 5.0 Charset: noconv iQBVAwUBM/qmNPthU5e7emAFAQGohgIAj+O+YN/Eyk6/M7L5+/g9Ap1HgNlQ/P7e 86KfFjDhwxE4xa1d5/ns9JKgHZb5S6lGNgQp9YzlFfriE7h7s5z2zQ== =q7vW -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- # Thanks; Bill # Bill Stewart, +1-415-442-2215 stewarts@ix.netcom.com # You can get PGP outside the US at ftp.ox.ac.uk/pub/crypto/pgp # (If this is a mailing list or news, please Cc: me on replies. Thanks.)
CBS must be going for the propaganda suck-up award this year. Following tonight's "Chicago Hope," which dumped an immense wad of socialist propaganda on us ("Health care is a right!" "No one should ever profit off a sick child."), the local news ran a CBS-produced feature about the internet. First half showed how cute bunny-rabbit cartoons can educate your little hothouse genius. Second half then explained how there are {gasp} dirty *sex* sites out there that junior could accidentally stumble across. Obviously, something *must* be done. Feature included a representative teen who manfully resists the temptation to look at the feelthy pictures, 16-year-old Tim May of California. I'm not making this up. I wonder if it's an accident or a deliberate middle-finger from the propagandists? bd
At 12:35 AM 8/19/97 -0400, you wrote:
Following tonight's "Chicago Hope," which dumped an immense wad of socialist propaganda on us ("Health care is a right!" "No one should ever profit off a sick child."), the local news ran a CBS-produced feature about the internet.
Figures. A hearty "up yers" is in order to them.
First half showed how cute bunny-rabbit cartoons can educate your little hothouse genius. Second half then explained how there are {gasp} dirty *sex* sites out there that junior could accidentally stumble across. Obviously, something *must* be done.
Yeah, perhaps teaching your kids what's wrong and right, to the best of your ability, and no less, as a parent. Perhaps also teaching them how not to get sucked into a pedophile.
Feature included a representative teen who manfully resists the temptation to look at the feelthy pictures, 16-year-old Tim May of California.
I'm not making this up.
?????
I wonder if it's an accident or a deliberate middle-finger from the propagandists?
Sounds like an accident at first, but, well... /===========================================================\ Help win the fight against weak encryption! Break RC5-56 -----------|> http://rc5.distributed.net/ <|------------- Member of Starbase XII RC5 Team Free secure e-mail, a reality? Yes! Pretty Good Privacy available at http://web.mit.edu/network/pgp.html \===========================================================/
On Tue, 19 Aug 1997, Brad Dolan wrote:
CBS must be going for the propaganda suck-up award this year.
Second half then explained how there are {gasp} dirty *sex* sites out there that junior could accidentally stumble across. Obviously, something *must* be done.
* Something must be done. * This is something. * Therefore, we must do it. (Yes, Prime Minister?) ::Boots
At 8:02 AM -0700 8/19/97, Duncan Frissell wrote:
State is lagging in issuing the terrorist organization list required by this law. It is believed that they are chicken because most of the groups would be Moslem groups and this would be considered a politically incorrect denigration of a "protected group." Then they'd have to put the IRA on the list as well and that would cause controversy. If they never issue the list...
In any case, I don't think that we have to worry because we don't fund anyone. We just send non-cash bits. The law requires that a foreign terrorist group on the "Attorney General's List" (actually State Department) receive money or physical support. I suppose remailers could be targetted but that would make for an interesting case since anonymnity remains protected.
Actually, this is not true. I guess it depends on who the "we" is/are. I've made contributions to groups whose goals I support. And several years ago I helped some political groups get PGP 2.0 installed for use. (They can now find experts within their own group, as I am hardly current on PGP and its many variations and installation options. But in '92-'93 I was a local expert, comparatively.) It bears mentioning that the "rebel group" in Myanmar/Burma which Phil Zimmermann is so proud of, becauase they were early users of PGP to protect their communications and laptops, is both a terrorist and a drug dealing group. As the rebels battle the forces of Slorc, the regime in power, they fund their activities with the thriving heroin trade out of the Shan province. And they ambush Slorc vehicles and kill the soldiers inside, plant bombs in strategic locations, etc. No different from Hamas freedom fighters bombing ZOG installations in the Zionist Entity. And Hamas is now using PGP, frustrating the ZOG and Palestinian Authority officials to no end. The Engineer, now presumed dead, is thus replaced by The Cryptologist. So, when PGP supporters claim that PGP is not being used for "terrorist activities," they are ignoring reality. Depends on a definition of terrorism, as always. When the U.S. mines the harbors of countries with democratically elected governments, or assassinates Patrice Lumumba, Ahmed Ben Bella, etc., this is called "fighting for democracy." When the U.S.-backed Cuban emigre terrorist groups blow up planes out of Havana, this is called "freedom fighting." When Hamas stages similar acts, it is "terrorism." So, if PGP supporters help the Burmese rebels to set up secure networks, is this legal or illegal under the Anti-Terrorism Act? And if PGP supporters help Hamas set up secure networks, is this legal or illegal? Exactly what is the difference? Clinton's Anti-Terrorism Act leaves it unclear which of these actions we citizen units are allowed to express support, financial, moral, or technical, for. Fuck them. They are the real terrorists. --Tim May There's something wrong when I'm a felon under an increasing number of laws. Only one response to the key grabbers is warranted: "Death to Tyrants!" ---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---- Timothy C. May | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money, tcmay@got.net 408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA | knowledge, reputations, information markets, Higher Power: 2^1398269 | black markets, collapse of governments. "National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."
Zooko Journeyman <zooko@xs4all.nl> writes:
[...]
P.P.S. No really-- I'm _not_ a cypherpunk, because cypherpunks appear to be overwhelmed with blind, self-destructive bloodlust since 1996 or so. I'm just here to try talking some sense into the salvageable ones.
Cypherpunks are individuals. Pick 10 cypherpunks, you'll get 10 different views. Don't see the need to disclaim non-cypherpunk status due to `bloodlust'... Are you anticipating that the list readership will be collectively locked up for non-government approved thoughts? Are you sure that having a 10 mile crater where there used to be a bunch of power-crazed beaurocrats wouldn't be a net improvement :-)? It's not as if anyone is planning to nuke them anyway, it's just invective. There might be some danger of some of us writing a bit of crypto code, or saying some negative things about politicians. No laws against either of those (yet). On AP/betting pools etc., politics and governments are all about force. Why should governments have a monopoly on force? People applaud SAS/CIA assassinations as humanitarian efforts. What's the difference? A lot of the systematic torture, intimidation, carried out by 3rd world dictatorships is done at the hands of CIA trained government employees. If you find your own government not extreme enough to feel comfortable evaluating net benefits to human happiness in removal of corrupt government officials, perhaps you would be happier evaluating societal benefits of theoretically removing some 3rd world countries more corrupt officials. It's not bloodlust, it's game theory... Adam -- Have *you* exported RSA today? --> http://www.dcs.ex.ac.uk/~aba/rsa/ print pack"C*",split/\D+/,`echo "16iII*o\U@{$/=$z;[(pop,pop,unpack"H*",<> )]}\EsMsKsN0[lN*1lK[d2%Sa2/d0<X+d*lMLa^*lN%0]dsXx++lMlN/dsM0<J]dsJxp"|dc`
evaluating net benefits to human happiness in removal of corrupt government officials, perhaps you would be happier evaluating societal benefits of theoretically removing some 3rd world countries more corrupt officials.
It's not bloodlust, it's game theory...
Adam --
Yes, but you must first assert that this is a zero sum game. The semantics of such a philosophy are too much to think about now. :). -Brad
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- At 11:49 PM 8/19/97 -0700, Kent Crispin wrote:
It's actually closer to a cult -- a small group with it's own shared reality -- a reality quite at variance with societal norms. The cult has its own terminology, and an underlying dogma to which these code words refer. The cult has "special knowledge" that has been revealed to them concerning massive changes that will happen to society -- changes that will usher in a new world order. These changes may involve the world going through a cleansing fire of war of war and destruction.
One minor difference is that most cults don't manage to convince the head of the FBI and various other national leaders that their scenario is possible. [I'm not saying that we actually convinced anyone ourselves but we certainly share a vision of a possible future with Freeh and various intelligence types.] They talk about their fears of digital anarchy all the time. I don't remember the FBI director talking about the Lamb and the Book of Rev like Koresh or about the saucer behind Hale-Bopp like Heaven's Gate. Not an ordinary cult. DCF "If Vince Foster had a gun he'd be alive today." -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: PGP for Personal Privacy 5.0 Charset: noconv iQCVAwUBM/yXAYVO4r4sgSPhAQGiCAP/SGwXrg5LFHtSQLE6qKfBNiltjwC7b15b SA87/SZPuLSaK1u/oYgXdlSBlmac1tN2Ur7bmeR6AA5opIlC0Edq7FRiMx/RWk6d tQOYaS7QJThgfWa+Hp+Z2xX8UGz8JYzrCrnPXdMrboDvcReGuPR+52TlE2lUra2H AQMBcq/Vin0= =eQJD -----END PGP SIGNATURE-----
On Mon, 18 Aug 1997, Zooko Journeyman wrote:
A million monkeys operating under the pseudonym "Alex le Heux <alexlh@xs4all.nl>" typed:
Hey HEY! It's the man who nearly managed to single-handedly derail the PGP legal export hack by playing the block rocking beats (all vinyl) which inspired the vacationing hackers to spill the drinks on the source books.
Without Alex, there wouldn't really have been a Cypherpunks party tent to do the hack in. Well, the tent might have been there, but there would have been less fun and certainly not as many good looking women. And besides, how could one hack without music? --Lucky
On Tue, Aug 19, 1997 at 12:26:57AM +0100, Adam Back wrote:
[...]
On AP/betting pools etc., politics and governments are all about force. Why should governments have a monopoly on force?
By a reasonable definition whoever has a monopoly on force *is* the government. A rather significant body of history indicates that force monopolies arise spontaneously in any society. [...]
If you find your own government not extreme enough to feel comfortable evaluating net benefits to human happiness in removal of corrupt government officials, perhaps you would be happier evaluating societal benefits of theoretically removing some 3rd world countries more corrupt officials.
It's not bloodlust, it's game theory...
It's actually closer to a cult -- a small group with it's own shared reality -- a reality quite at variance with societal norms. The cult has its own terminology, and an underlying dogma to which these code words refer. The cult has "special knowledge" that has been revealed to them concerning massive changes that will happen to society -- changes that will usher in a new world order. These changes may involve the world going through a cleansing fire of war of war and destruction. The members constantly reinforce each other's beliefs with stroking messages -- eg: > >Congress was indeed a horrid idea. We need no laws other that > > "do what you will as long as you don't physically injure, > > or steal." All else is congressional bullshit paid in > > bloody tax money. > >Amen, brother. Certain of the members sport a messiah or a martyr complex. It is also quite common for cults to call for arming the brethren against the coming struggle -- even the Heaven's Gate group apparently had stashes of weapons. It's all so predictable. -- Kent Crispin "No reason to get excited", kent@songbird.com the thief he kindly spoke... PGP fingerprint: B1 8B 72 ED 55 21 5E 44 61 F4 58 0F 72 10 65 55 http://songbird.com/kent/pgp_key.html
At 12:29 PM -0700 8/21/97, Duncan Frissell wrote:
One minor difference is that most cults don't manage to convince the head of the FBI and various other national leaders that their scenario is possible. [I'm not saying that we actually convinced anyone ourselves but we certainly share a vision of a possible future with Freeh and various intelligence types.] They talk about their fears of digital anarchy all the time. I don't remember the FBI director talking about the Lamb and the Book of Rev like Koresh or about the saucer behind Hale-Bopp like Heaven's Gate.
Not an ordinary cult.
DCF
"If Vince Foster had a gun he'd be alive today."
Or the variant, "If Nicole Brown Simpson had a gun, she'd be a rich widow today." On the subject of cults, neither do cult leaders sit on panels at the Computers, Freedom, and Privacy conference and mingle with the leading lawyers, law professors, NSA employees, and Justice Department representatives. (As I have said, though this may have been before Crispin's time on this list, I've had polite contacts with Stuart Baker, former top counsel to the NSA, over the years. He clearly disagrees with my political agenda, as I do with his (though he is showing some backbone as top lawyer arguing against the CALEA/DT provisions). Yes, it is obviously a bit of hyperbole to say we long for the nuking of Washington. In fact, the way this thread started, at least my involvement in it, was by my comment that if a soft target like D.C. were to vanish in a puff of nuclear smoke, I wouldn't cry any tears. "So sue me." And I actually do think unbreakable crypto will have profound effects on taxation, which the government thinks is so, also. And will make it possible for virtual communties to communcate securely, including for the planning and execution of freedom fighting or "terrorist" activities. The government also agrees with this one. Where we differ is that first, I don't worry overmuch about what some foreigners are doing to other foreigners. I take George Washington at his word: avoid foreign entanglements. Not America's business if the Hutus are killing the Tutsis, or vice versa, or if the Nazis are killing the Jews, or vice versa. Second, we differ in that I don't think converting the U.S., or the world, into a totalitarian, surveillance state is an acceptable price to pay to stop some crimes. Louis Freeh believes otherwise. Third, these forces, once unleashed, have an unfolding force of their own. Denning admits this, Freeh admits this, Reno admits this, Baker admits this. Which is why the government is so concerned. Hardly the stuff of a cult, is it? --Tim May There's something wrong when I'm a felon under an increasing number of laws. Only one response to the key grabbers is warranted: "Death to Tyrants!" ---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---- Timothy C. May | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money, tcmay@got.net 408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA | knowledge, reputations, information markets, Higher Power: 2^1398269 | black markets, collapse of governments. "National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."
participants (10)
-
Adam Back -
Bill Stewart -
Brad Dolan -
Bradley E. Reynolds -
Duncan Frissell -
Kent Crispin -
Lucky Green -
nobody＠REPLAY.COM -
Tim May -
Zooko Journeyman