The problem with user-based filtering is that the noise may still drive people off the list. New subscribers won't have filters set up initially (they may not know how to set them up, or it may take a while to figure out who, what, and how to filter) and they'll be subject to a barrage of rants and raves. They're likely to unsubscribe in disgust before taking the time to uncover the jewels amid the slime. Also, Tim has noted problems with the user-based filtering on the extropians list. Different people have different filter settings, so there can be multiple redundant postings of outside information - magazine articles, other newsgroup or mailing list posts, etc. Nobody knows what material anyone else has seen. There is also something of a learning curve in using the extropians filtering, despite it being conceptually easy to use. A few weeks ago, it seemed that almost every day someone accidentally posted a filter command to the list. Tim noted at one point that he had surveyed local list members and found a great deal of ignorance about using the filters. I think it works better if the list community is seeing a common message stream, one which is of high quality, one which does not include messages of disruptive posters. Eric has given his blessing (at least implicitly) to an alternate list, one which is gatewayed bidirectionally to cypherpunks, but where such filtering is done. New subscribers to CP who were upset by the noise could be directed to this list when they unsubscribed. This would allow people to avoid receiving harrassing messages while still participating on the cypherpunks list. Hal Finney hfinney@shell.portal.com