On Thu, 19 Nov 1998, holist wrote:

I understand that there may be other reasons why it is unwise to post requests for warez on these lists, but moral outrage at the thought of software piracy was not one I expected to read here.

I for one am not a tremendous fan of copyright as applied to software today. I support the theory .. as a programmer I can appreciate the effort that goes into software development and I don't wish to see such developers harmed by piracy. OTOH, the consumer has a vested interest in sampling software before he pays for it. I wouldn't buy a car if I wasn't allowed to test drive it first. If someone offered me a car that I could not test drive, and that I could not return if it is defective, I certainly wouldn't buy the thing. As a consumer it is a bad move, though it certainly helps the car manufacturers (they can make a defective product with no worries). A prime example of this is Win98 .. a friend of mine was running win95 happily and smoothly (well, as smooth as win95 gets). He upgraded to 98. It crashed several times during the install procedure, and make his win95 set up unusable in the process. He can't return his win98 upgrade and get his money back (due to copyright), and he wasn't allowed to test it all out before spending the cash. In a word, he is screwed. We can't ignore the programmer's need to get paid and we can't ignore the consumer's need to a fair shake. We need to find a common ground. Now, for small $40 word processors, a sampling system is probably not worth the trouble. But for expensive or important packages (like OS's) sampling the software first is a good thing.

Especially as I hear nobody complaining about the advertisement for pornography that I receive every two days, regular as clockwork, from the cypherpunks list, not to mention the great deal of other entirely useless, automatically generated advertising.

That is spam. Cypherpunks is an open list (any messages sent in are distributed freely). Why not find a nice free web-based email service with mail filtering? Filter the porn out before you even get the mail forwarded to your, or before you read it over the web or POP or whatever. Michael J. Graffam (mgraffam@idsi.net) "Let your life be a counter-friction to stop the machine." Henry David Thoreau "Civil Disobedience"

At 3:15 AM -0800 11/19/98, holist wrote:

I only subscribed to this list a few weeks ago. I break my silence in defense of Bernardo B. Terrado, who was viciously attacked by Adam Hupp and then rather more graciously advised by Jim Gillogly.

Having read a significant amount of material on the ideological (rather than the technical) background of cypherpunks (Tim May's writings, mainly) it seems to me rather obvious that a relative newcomer to these circles would come to expect to find people who may not be "mannered intellectuals", but who are certainly not erstwhile defenders of intellectual property, particularly asthe concept is applied to software today.

I understand that there may be other reasons why it is unwise to post requests for warez on these lists, but moral outrage at the thought of software piracy was not one I expected to read here.

Don't confuse the views you hear from some particular person(s) to be the collective, group views of the list, or the views of me, and so on. (This applies to your point below about porn, too.)

Especially as I hear nobody complaining about the advertisement for pornography that I receive every two days, regular as clockwork, from the cypherpunks list, not to mention the great deal of other entirely useless, automatically generated advertising.

Unlike most of you lucky people in the States, I pay through the nose for on-line time.

Perhaps priorities could do with rethinking.

You seem to think the Cypherpunks mailing list is some kind of moderated, edited forum, with porn ads sent deliberately by the Governing Body of Editors. What goes out to the *reflector* is what comes in. Nothing more, nothing less. You are of course free to create your own moderated, edited list. Oh, and please learn to attach Subject names to your posts. And "cypherpunks@toad.com" is not one of the preferred list addresses...hasn't been for a year or two. --Tim May Common Y2K line: "I'm not preparing, but I know where _you_ live." ---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---- Timothy C. May | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money, ComSec 3DES: 831-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA | knowledge, reputations, information markets, Licensed Ontologist | black markets, collapse of governments.