[Actually this is getting relevant again, Perry] On Tue, 30 Jan 1996, Lucky Green wrote:

At 23:07 1/30/96, Rich Graves wrote: [...]

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We won't have won until they restore the routes to Webcom.

Here I have trouble with the word "we," and what we're trying to accomplish.

Censorship has clearly lost. Germany is simply not going to block stanford.edu, cmu.edu, mit.edu, upenn.edu, aol.com, and so on, not to mention AFS.

But they succeeded in blocking Webcom. Until the block is removed, we haven't won. Do 'we' agree that the block should be removed?

Absitively, posilutely yes. But it's going to be a political/bureaucratic decision made by people without Net access or knowledge, which means it will take time. I don't think any more provocation is necessary. Right now, the press even in Germany is inclined to see us as the good guys. Every reader of alt.censorship, soc.culture.german. alt.revisionism, and a number of other groups has known how to access Zundel's writings from inside Germany for two days. I submit that no further penetration is necessary.

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I do not believe that the battle to get people to read and care about Zundel himself is ours.

Amen. I just wished that the people who's names mark some of the milestones in the fights for our rights (i.e, Miranda, as in Miranda Rights) were people whose causes I can support. Having seen concentration camps, I can not possibly sympathize with Mr. Zündel's views. But he still has a right to free speech. If he loses it, we lose it. It all comes down to this:

First they came for the Communists, and I didn't speak up, ... by Rev. Martin Niemoller, 1945.

Yup. But Zundel and other Nazis now quote this too, which I find rather offensive. It's a battle over who owns the symbols, in part. OK, probably nobody should own symbols or rhetorical devices.

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I do not want to allow the Nazis to associate themselves with "us." Please see article <DM0Fsn.5GC@freenet.carleton.ca> for a little on what they're trying to claim credit for. Note they are calling for mirror sites nearly three days after they popped up, with no involvement on their part whatsoever.

I can imagine what they wrote. "The world is supporting our cause...." No, I do not support their cause. I despise their cause. And I still support their rights.

No, it's much worse. They are calling on their followers to establish "censorship-free zones" at major universities. They don't even acknowledge that this was done days ago. And they know --- one of the guys who is now calling for mirror sites, and totally shunning me, is the person who uploaded Zundel's files to my server. They are calling major newspapers in several countries, and Time Magazine, proclaiming their "censorship-free zone" strategy. They are more organized and media-savvy than I am. They are professional liars; "we" are not. I do not expect these news outlets to bother to, or know how to, check whether mirror sites had already popped up before these "demands." I do not expect these news outlets to find out and publicize the fact that it was a couple of cypherpunks who detest Mr. Zundel who came up with the idea the afternoon of January 27th, and handed it to Zundel the next day. -rich