Re: Collection of personal info
At 10:15 PM 9/6/95, Rob Lowry wrote:
Beyond having the willies.. This is more than just scary, it feels like rape when you think about it for awhile. Everything you buy, on credit, is recorded and sold to someone who wants to know your secrets. Everytime you make a banking transaction, someone is watching and compiling the data.
Is there any legal recourse to get your name removed from the sellable list? Or is it too late and we can not save even the vestiges of our privacy?
Rob, I have entered this posting of yours into the "BlackNet Dossier Service" I operate. Sounds creepy and scary, eh? Well, it's part of freedom. The "legal recourse" you mention about having your name taken off lists kept by people or agencies ultimately involves visits by the authorities to private homes (like mine) to verify that the data are being "properly collected" and that no "illegal or incorrect data" are being stored. If someone wants something kept secret, the solution is to keep it secret. If someone doesn't want their postings going into my 220 megabyte file of postings, they shouldn't send them to me. Or they should adopt a digital pseudonym, unlinkable to their True Name or any other nyms they may have. Things are much simpler and less stressful when you don't look to the law to fix things. --Tim May ---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---- Timothy C. May | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money, tcmay@got.net 408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero Corralitos, CA | knowledge, reputations, information markets, Higher Power: 2^756839 | black markets, collapse of governments. "National borders are just speed bumps on the information superhighway."
Rob, I have entered this posting of yours into the "BlackNet Dossier Service" I operate.
At least you notified me.. :) Something the TRW crew or others like them do not do.
If someone doesn't want their postings going into my 220 megabyte file of postings, they shouldn't send them to me. Or they should adopt a digital pseudonym, unlinkable to their True Name or any other nyms they may have.
This is true.. I could adopt a nym, such as I use on my BBS, or when I am doing other stuff on the net.. but it is difficult at best to get a new set of credit cards, ID and so on with a new name/alias and still maintain your own name. If it were possible to have an alias in real life, as easy as it is to get one on the 'net that is, then I would most certainly do so.. 'Frothmonger' <g>
On Wed, 6 Sep 1995, Rob Lowry wrote:
Rob, I have entered this posting of yours into the "BlackNet Dossier Service" I operate.
At least you notified me.. :) Something the TRW crew or others like them do not do.
If someone doesn't want their postings going into my 220 megabyte file of postings, they shouldn't send them to me. Or they should adopt a digital pseudonym, unlinkable to their True Name or any other nyms they may have.
This is true.. I could adopt a nym, such as I use on my BBS, or when I am doing other stuff on the net.. but it is difficult at best to get a new set of credit cards, ID and so on with a new name/alias and still maintain your own name.
In fact it's not difficult. It's quite simple to estlablish new identity for the individual willing to risk the charges and consequences of exposure. The basic impediment is time. Good credit doesn't come overnight. The second impediment is tax evasion- which is less than justifiable in the United States on the grounds of privacy. If you're willing to be patient, and pay taxes on more than one name, its easy to maintain several identities.
If it were possible to have an alias in real life, as easy as it is to get one on the 'net that is, then I would most certainly do so..
Which tells me how serious you really are about your privacy. You have made a decision here about how much trouble privacy is worth to you, which is "not much." I hear people bitch about privacy endlessly. Privacy helps those who help themselves to privacy. I think Mr. May was precisely correct in saying that it is so much easier and simpler for one to rely on self privacy insurance rather than government privacy insurance.
'Frothmonger' <g>
Which tells me how serious you really are about your privacy. You have made a decision here about how much trouble privacy is worth to you, which is "not much."
If I were single, it would be a lot easier to just start making up names and living under assumed aliases.. but with a wife and two kids, I have to follow the rules a bit more.. My privacy is worth variable amounts depending on who has access to it.. I certainly do not care if anyone on this list knows who I am or not, as it is something I voluntarily chose to join. Selling info about me, without notifying me before hand is another situation altogether. Even the magazines I subscribe to have notices that my name may be sold.. and the mags that don't have such a warning, but sell my name anyways, get cancelled as soon as I discover it. Far easier to stop by the local PC store and buy it a week later than to have mounds of junk mail piling up.
I hear people bitch about privacy endlessly. Privacy helps those who help themselves to privacy. I think Mr. May was precisely correct in saying that it is so much easier and simpler for one to rely on self privacy insurance rather than government privacy insurance.
Again, you both are correct, and perhaps I was overstating my position in regards to the TRW/etc. groups.. I have a tendancy to do so. Each of us has the responsibility to monitor the activities in our lives, both directly and indirectly. Whether this is watching our spending to make sure we do no overcharge, or encrypting mail to keep in secure, we need to be aware of what we are doing, and the reactions of others as a result of our actions. In this case, the action is spending money on credit, and the reaction is being monitored by credit agencies. My solution was to get rid of all the credit cards 4 years ago.. my credit history is trashed in part do to very low activity over the last 4 years, and of course, the side effect of maxing out 4 cards. -stepping off soapbox and looking for the next topic..-
Tim and I have corresponded about this previously, and again he neglects the distinction between collection and storage, on the one hand, and retrival and dissemination, on the other. If you do the latter, your content better be accurate. That's the difference in Tim and TRW. So far.:) MacN On Wed, 6 Sep 1995, Rob Lowry wrote:
Rob, I have entered this posting of yours into the "BlackNet Dossier Service" I operate.
At least you notified me.. :) Something the TRW crew or others like them do not do.
If someone doesn't want their postings going into my 220 megabyte file of postings, they shouldn't send them to me. Or they should adopt a digital pseudonym, unlinkable to their True Name or any other nyms they may have.
This is true.. I could adopt a nym, such as I use on my BBS, or when I am doing other stuff on the net.. but it is difficult at best to get a new set of credit cards, ID and so on with a new name/alias and still maintain your own name. If it were possible to have an alias in real life, as easy as it is to get one on the 'net that is, then I would most certainly do so..
'Frothmonger' <g>
On Wed, 6 Sep 1995, Timothy C. May wrote:
At 10:15 PM 9/6/95, Rob Lowry wrote:
Beyond having the willies.. This is more than just scary, it feels like rape when you think about it for awhile. Everything you buy, on credit, is recorded and sold to someone who wants to know your secrets. Everytime you make a banking transaction, someone is watching and compiling the data.
If someone doesn't want their postings going into my 220 megabyte file of postings, they shouldn't send them to me. Or they should adopt a digital pseudonym, unlinkable to their True Name or any other nyms they may have.
Things are much simpler and less stressful when you don't look to the law to fix things.
Nor was I suggesting a legal solution (I know your comment was triggered by Rob's request for legal recourse) but instead suggesting that things are farther along than some people realize. Someone suggested a rational, non-hysterical approach to converting people. Perhaps. I certainly wrote a nice letter to the editor of a magazine which published a piece about electronic checking, and made sure to mention that e-cash would be preferable to some. On the other hand, The Gub'mint is certainly conducting a campaign overt and covert to throttle unlimited and uncontrolled use of cryptography. That combined with how politicized things are these days, it can be difficult to conduct a rational debate or in fact find anyone who wants to talk. Personally, I'm of the opinion that we need to a pre-emptive crypto strike. But just as the 'Privacy Card' has been debated here endlessly, so too reaching critical market mass w/a 'bump in the cord' product. David Neal <dneal@usis.com> - GNU Planet Aerospace 1-800-PLN-8-GNU Unix, Sybase and Networking consultant. "...you have a personal responsibility to be pro-active in the defense of your own civil liberties." - S. McCandlish
Nor was I suggesting a legal solution (I know your comment was triggered by Rob's request for legal recourse) but instead suggesting that things are farther along than some people realize.
Nor do I support additional rules/laws or regulations.. but if there are existing ones to screw with, use 'em.. Recently I had a bill turned over to collections from, of all places, the daycare we used to take our kids too.. we owe them about $1300 in their estimation. The reason we have not paid is due to 11 days of lost work due to head lice that they provided to my kids, plus they stopped serving breakfast which was in the contract we signed when enrolling the kids there.. I was notified by the collection co. about this submittal (now $1500 for some reason..) and by law, I can dispute this in writing, thus slowing the wheels of the collection monster horribly. I did so.. and for the last 4 months, they have been trying to prove I owe money.. I was asking if such a system exist for the release of your credit info.. and it appears that there is no safety mechanism in that monster. Rather than cry out for more laws to be twisted against us later, I agree that letting it happen, and using cash instead of credit, is the smart answer here. Someone care to point me at e-cash info? sounds interesting.. remember, I am new to the crypto scene and still think PGP is neato ;)
On Wed, 6 Sep 1995, Rob Lowry wrote:
I am new to the crypto scene and still think PGP is neato ;)
Welcome, you will learn a lot of great material here, and yes it is neato. I just wish it came pre-installed with WinDoze... ||||||||||||email address: starrd@iia2.org or starrd@cinenet.net||||||||||| | Creator of the original | Get paid to upload | | Patriot's Archives \ shareware to BBSes and | | ftp: iia.org /pub/users/patriot \_____ the Internet! | | ftp: wuarchive.wustl.edu /pub/msdos_uploads/patriot\ Get file: | | For index of available files: descript.ion \ uploader.zip | ||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||| -----BEGIN PGP PUBLIC KEY BLOCK----- Version: 2.6.2 mQCNAzAN3FwAAAEEAOgWK9QJo3LIPXC+C/RHE+nmlddXPthC0hgLL7oKg7WPjYgk LrX7j0eUmb5e6t2sm/PkJ1wjk839fqjUmRPLD0mhPX6KsMB0DoecYbCKLrNUY1gP 7DZijj9e7fuPaHqhuY7K5rGjN4po4ZxGhEPQv32IjQLSza9nbU05aMuMG71tAAUR tB9EYXZpZCBXIFN0YXJyIDxzdGFycmRAaWlhMi5vcmc+iQCVAwUQMCnJQEY2REVK Mit9AQG9AAQAps4lKzeQ/OQyXbvxG4b5wWsvHEK/K+1L/tfG0+EmlEsDARaN2pBD cCslIKHjBa8al2BaTSsNjCUSHMgd+IWRp+nw2XJt/lRqpvTN5m7pPNAEQbSgCGwf 9kJ1IDPMokOw9XXAuGAqMQi9HogepNxp7JOdNphcJulHf9XbyCy/sig= =0Tlq -----END PGP PUBLIC KEY BLOCK-----
Welcome, you will learn a lot of great material here, and yes it is neato. I just wish it came pre-installed with WinDoze...
Don't worry, as soon as it becomes polically correct, and MS can find a way to make $$ on it, it will be rammed down our throats in WinDoze.. :)
a sonewhat similar system does exist, also unser federal statute, for credit reporting agencies. YMMV MacN On Wed, 6 Sep 1995, Rob Lowry wrote:
Nor was I suggesting a legal solution (I know your comment was triggered by Rob's request for legal recourse) but instead suggesting that things are farther along than some people realize.
Nor do I support additional rules/laws or regulations.. but if there are existing ones to screw with, use 'em.. Recently I had a bill turned over to collections from, of all places, the daycare we used to take our kids too.. we owe them about $1300 in their estimation. The reason we have not paid is due to 11 days of lost work due to head lice that they provided to my kids, plus they stopped serving breakfast which was in the contract we signed when enrolling the kids there.. I was notified by the collection co. about this submittal (now $1500 for some reason..) and by law, I can dispute this in writing, thus slowing the wheels of the collection monster horribly. I did so.. and for the last 4 months, they have been trying to prove I owe money.. I was asking if such a system exist for the release of your credit info.. and it appears that there is no safety mechanism in that monster. Rather than cry out for more laws to be twisted against us later, I agree that letting it happen, and using cash instead of credit, is the smart answer here.
Someone care to point me at e-cash info? sounds interesting.. remember, I am new to the crypto scene and still think PGP is neato ;)
participants (7)
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Black Unicorn -
David Neal -
Mac Norton -
Rob L -
Rob Lowry
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starrd -
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