Let's cut all the doom and gloom here. The bill isn't passed yet. It's got to go through at least one and possibly two more committees before it reaches the senate floor, where we'll have another chance to defeat it. Even then the house has to pass similar legislation. That will be yet another chance. When Clipper was proposed, a wave of anger and opposition swept forth. The same thing needs to happen now. This fatalism is self defeating. Either you're part of the solution or you're part of the problem. People who say there's no use fighting, who give up, who oppose the efforts of the crypto lobbying groups in the name of ideological purity, are not part of the solution. They have no right to complain if this law passes. By sitting aside and carping at the efforts of those who are trying to stop this kind of legislation, they are only helping to bring it about. There is no reason this new bill should be any more acceptable or more successful than Clipper was. We only have to fight it.
Perhaps there is more reason to be worried than Anonymous lets on. This afternoon I stopped by the office of a Congressional staffer who will, appropriately, remain anonymous. This person knows crypto, follows it, even truly believes in it. But they were pessimistic about any good, or even half-decent, crypto legislation leaving the Congress. Which committee will insert it? And what good crypto legislation would pass a presidential veto? DC crypto-lobbyists should have seen this coming. Instead of lifting export controls -- or even leaving intact the status quo -- Congress is about to make things worse. Perhaps cypherpunks should turn crypto-rejectionist. -Declan On Sat, 21 Jun 1997, Anonymous wrote:
Let's cut all the doom and gloom here. The bill isn't passed yet. It's got to go through at least one and possibly two more committees before it reaches the senate floor, where we'll have another chance to defeat it.
Even then the house has to pass similar legislation. That will be yet another chance.
When Clipper was proposed, a wave of anger and opposition swept forth. The same thing needs to happen now. This fatalism is self defeating.
Either you're part of the solution or you're part of the problem. People who say there's no use fighting, who give up, who oppose the efforts of the crypto lobbying groups in the name of ideological purity, are not part of the solution. They have no right to complain if this law passes. By sitting aside and carping at the efforts of those who are trying to stop this kind of legislation, they are only helping to bring it about.
There is no reason this new bill should be any more acceptable or more successful than Clipper was. We only have to fight it.
At 4:32 PM -0700 6/20/97, Declan McCullagh wrote:
Perhaps there is more reason to be worried than Anonymous lets on.
This afternoon I stopped by the office of a Congressional staffer who will, appropriately, remain anonymous. This person knows crypto, follows it, even truly believes in it. But they were pessimistic about any good, or even half-decent, crypto legislation leaving the Congress. Which committee will insert it? And what good crypto legislation would pass a presidential veto?
DC crypto-lobbyists should have seen this coming. Instead of lifting export controls -- or even leaving intact the status quo -- Congress is about to make things worse.
Perhaps cypherpunks should turn crypto-rejectionist.
Hey, that's _my_ line!!! (:-}) I've been arguing the "rejectionist" view for a long time. I even mentioned this to Bidzos and Zimmermann, separately of course, and they both uttered some variant of "Sign me up." Could be marketspeak jive in one or both cases, but probably both saw the essential hopelessness of having Congress reaffirm the Constitution. And this is all that was ever needed. As I've said, the problems of whether some company can _export_ some product, serious as they are to _them_, are as nothing compared to mandatory key escrow, criminalization of crypto, and restrictions on domestic use.
On Sat, 21 Jun 1997, Anonymous wrote:
Let's cut all the doom and gloom here. The bill isn't passed yet. It's got to go through at least one and possibly two more committees before it reaches the senate floor, where we'll have another chance to defeat it.
Even then the house has to pass similar legislation. That will be yet another chance.
It will sail through. Trust me.
When Clipper was proposed, a wave of anger and opposition swept forth. The same thing needs to happen now. This fatalism is self defeating.
Au contraire, "Anonymous." I was there. Maybe you were there (your writing style reminds me of someone). What Cypherpunks did then was not to lobby for some law to halt Clipper. Check the archives if you don't believe this.
Either you're part of the solution or you're part of the problem. People who say there's no use fighting, who give up, who oppose the efforts of the crypto lobbying groups in the name of ideological purity, are not part of the solution. They have no right to complain if this law passes. By sitting aside and carping at the efforts of those who are trying to stop this kind of legislation, they are only helping to bring it about.
We are not "carping" about those "trying to stop this kind of legislation." Most of us did not condemn Pro-CODE, though it had some flaws. (And Pro-CODE II was an absolute disgrace, giving power back to the TLAs to determine algorithms...might as well not even have it.) SAFE was of course perniciously evil, as it criminalized a form of speech. Nothing in the Constitution allows such criminalization of a form of speech. But I have written much on why SAFE is bad leglislation. In any case, all the much-publicized lobbying of EPIC and CDT and all the rest to get "compromise" legislation through has led to what? To a last-minute, politics as usual substitution and passage of a draconian, Orwellian bill which will change the landscape of freedom in the world. The only way to fight it is by monkeywrenching enforceability, and by pushing the limits of offshore communication. Or by more severe steps. They have earned it. --Timothy McMay There's something wrong when I'm a felon under an increasing number of laws. Only one response to the key grabbers is warranted: "Death to Tyrants!" ---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---- Timothy C. May | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money, tcmay@got.net 408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA | knowledge, reputations, information markets, Higher Power: 2^1398269 | black markets, collapse of governments. "National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."
At 12:10 AM +0200 6/21/97, Anonymous wrote:
Let's cut all the doom and gloom here. The bill isn't passed yet. It's got to go through at least one and possibly two more committees before it reaches the senate floor, where we'll have another chance to defeat it.
Even then the house has to pass similar legislation. That will be yet another chance.
Even if it makes it thru Congress, perhaps it can be challenged by the courts because of possible 4th amendent abuses. Lots of opportunity to sink it. Sure this is a lousy turn of events, but it's only 1 battle. It isn't even close to the end of the war. john noerenberg jwn2@qualcomm.com pager: jwn2@pager.qualcomm.com -------------------------------------------------------------------- "We need not to be left alone. We need to be really bothered once in a while." -- Ray Bradbury, Farhenheit 451, 1953 --------------------------------------------------------------------
At 7:22 PM -0700 6/20/97, John W. Noerenberg wrote:
Even if it makes it thru Congress, perhaps it can be challenged by the courts because of possible 4th amendent abuses.
Lots of opportunity to sink it.
Sure this is a lousy turn of events, but it's only 1 battle. It isn't even close to the end of the war.
Hey, hey, hey! None of us who have called it "war" have said it was "the end of the war." It's the firing shot in the "hot war," if it passes. The "cold war" has been underway for more than 4 years. The CDA was a warning shot, this is the bombing of Pearl Harbor. They will be sent to meet the fate they have earned. --Tim May There's something wrong when I'm a felon under an increasing number of laws. Only one response to the key grabbers is warranted: "Death to Tyrants!" ---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---- Timothy C. May | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money, tcmay@got.net 408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA | knowledge, reputations, information markets, Higher Power: 2^1398269 | black markets, collapse of governments. "National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."
Take a gander at this out-of-the-blue and off-the-wall thing I just got from Georgia's finest. Proves to me that what they say about Georgia is right. (I have no idea why Costner decided I should get this. Insofar as I remember, the "ye-haww" comments came from Bill Stewart, and I took them to mean Bill was happy at the result. The "wear masks" comment was presumably about the anonymity issue, with a touch of McIntyre and 2600 mixed in. Apparently this was all too subtle for Costner...probably not something taught in the 8th grade he graduated from in Georgia.) --Tim May, fed up with getting these bizarre rants from disgruntled and ill-educated list members, some of whom seem to expect that I can _do_ something about the demons that torment them Note: the following was sent directly to _me_:
Date: Fri, 20 Jun 1997 23:36:15 -0400 To: Tim May <tcmay@got.net> From: "Robert A. Costner" <pooh@efga.org> Subject: Derisive comments Mime-Version: 1.0
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Since I already know that you like to pick at me....
What are "Ye-haaw!" and "Wear masks in Underground Atlanta" supposed to mean when someone takes my comments elsewhere, posts them on cyberpunks and adds that.
Is there supposed to be something wrong with winning an internet censorship case? I'm beginning to see the property rights thing... Was I not supposed to challenge a criminal law I thought was wrong?
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: PGP for Personal Privacy 5.0 Charset: noconv
iQBVAwUBM6tMK0GpGhRXg5NZAQEXOAH/YaQPnqDfwwEqW1LdVv+/PryYE4VAPJjC yDerr6E+Pxl7Nw6yBfMeOmz+rFTqVawOyJii+tUUhj615mguSpcRSg== =7t6a -----END PGP SIGNATURE-----
-- Robert Costner Phone: (770) 512-8746 Electronic Frontiers Georgia mailto:pooh@efga.org http://www.efga.org/ run PGP 5.0 for my public key
There's something wrong when I'm a felon under an increasing number of laws. Only one response to the key grabbers is warranted: "Death to Tyrants!" ---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---- Timothy C. May | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money, tcmay@got.net 408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA | knowledge, reputations, information markets, Higher Power: 2^1398269 | black markets, collapse of governments. "National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."
participants (4)
-
Declan McCullagh -
John W. Noerenberg -
nobody＠REPLAY.COM -
Tim May