The Natives Are Getting Restless (was Wine Politics Again!)
Attila T. Hun wrote:
as for the great fairweather liberal bigot Blanc's passing it off as tcm's drunken ramblings, I doubt it. war is hell, and "innocents" get wasted --but, a society at war has no innocents. blow 'em all away. scorched earth is inadequate; burnt earth is more effective. if there are no prisoners, there are no complainers. ...............................................................
If we were out in the field, you'd get fragged for calling me that. <g> If this society is at war, it is a Civil War, fighting against itself. In fact, there are many groups fighting against each other, on many different levels: racial, gender-based, religious, economic, philosophical, not to leave out political. Companies are fighting each other "tooth & nail" for survival in marketing turfs, races are still exchanging vicious barbs, homosexuals are under verbal & physical attack by the socially "normed", the poor still envy & disparage the rich, women & children seem more than ever to be at risk to attacks from roving sex perverts, the liberals would love to put the libertarians under, religious groups lecture against the moral depravity of all those "other" people, and half the country is either stocking up for a National Disaster or forming into militia groups or other Think Tanks to fight some sort of government encroachment (even the health food stores where I shop are always posting sign-up sheets to vote against something or another the government wants to ban or some right-of-choice that is being threatened by proposed legislation). There are little battles raging on all around us, not only the fight for privacy-by-encryption which you all are aware of. Some cpunks have stated that "society doesn't know or care what is happening". Some of youall don't know the kinds of battles or other people/groups are having, either with government or with some opposing members of this same society. There is a lot of information out in the world competing for attention and resources - on the net, on the intranet, in the TV, in the newspapers, in magazines, in major newsletters, local newspapers, in posting on kiosks ("Get the US out of Nicaragua! " (sure, when I have a few free minutes and a couple of extra bucks")). How can one keep up with/contribute to all of these? So many times, I will happen to read accounts of people who have got into trouble of some kind, or down on their luck (they lost their job and don't have skills, they need a heart transplant, they got jailed by mistake, the car dealership gave them a bum deal), and they decide that society doesn't really know what is happening and complain that it is unsympathetic and lament "when will society wake up and realize that something needs to be done", etc.. Well, jeez, there's only so much time to spend on everybody else's problems. All these people with their problems would like everyone one else to be aware of their plight and sympathetic to their rights and to contribute to their cause, and get disturbed about being "marginalized". As far as I'm concerned, everyone is "marginalized". But people are behaving as expected: the Waco religious group acted as expected, the BATF acted as expected; government employees behave as expected. The cpunks, who know so much about government, in particular the NSA & certain luminaries related to privacy&encryption, should expect that things will go on as they do - even if they bomb D.C. out of existence. And this is because, apparently, people of this type & kind simply haven't evolved enough to expect anything different. Now, crypto was supposed to allow for the possibility of not having to deal with these people directly; it was supposed to usher in the new technological era whereby one could "route around" and generally avoid messing with Government Mongers, from negotiating for the right to breathe on one's own Maintenance Schedule. Well, so much for an anarchic life of Independent Means. I must say, from the posts I've been reading these past several days, I haven't seen very imaginative ideas for dealing with the problems which dull governments create. It is typical of dull governments that when pressed to the wall they resort to desperate, mediocre ways of dealing with problems - like obfuscation, exaggerated charges of evil intent, physical violence; all signs of a limited intellectual capacity for coming to terms with the facts of reality (the problems they face as Protectors of Goodness & Justice (tm) ). I would have expected newer, more creative ("evolved") ideas from scientists, mathematicians, physicists, computer-savvy members. .. Blanc .. Blanc
as for the great fairweather liberal bigot Blanc's passing it off as tcm's drunken ramblings, I doubt it. war is hell, and "innocents" get wasted --but, a society at war has no innocents. blow 'em all away. scorched earth is inadequate; burnt earth is more effective. if there are no prisoners, there are no complainers.
There are little battles raging on all around us, not only the fight for privacy-by-encryption which you all are aware of. Some cpunks have stated that "society doesn't know or care what is happening". Some of you all don't know the kinds of battles or other people/groups are having, either with government or with some opposing members of this same society.
This is a clearly observable characteristic of this list, however, I think it is only to be expected. I`m sure a lot of cpunks care about other issues than privacy and civil rights, but people tend to follow the flow on a mailing list as in real life. Most people don`t feel "confortable" starting new threads, I know I often start new threads by making important points in other threads, however, I very rarely start a new thread from scratch, I don`t seem to be able to write well unless I am contradicting a point someone else has made.
How can one keep up with/contribute to all of these? So many times, I will happen to read accounts of people who have got into trouble of some kind, or down on their luck (they lost their job and don't have skills, they need a heart transplant, they got jailed by mistake, the car dealership gave them a bum deal), and they decide that society doesn't really know what is happening and complain that it is unsympathetic and lament "when will society wake up and realize that something needs to be done", etc.. Well, jeez, there's only so much time to spend on everybody else's problems.
One of the main reasons societies degenerate into nanny state mentalities is because people spend too much time worrying about other peoples small and trivial problems ("there should be a law!").
All these people with their problems would like everyone one else to be aware of their plight and sympathetic to their rights and to contribute to their cause, and get disturbed about being "marginalized". As far as I'm concerned, everyone is "marginalized". But people are behaving as expected: the Waco religious group acted as expected, the BATF acted as expected; government employees behave as expected. The cpunks, who know so much about government, in particular the NSA & certain luminaries related to privacy&encryption, should expect that things will go on as they do - even if they bomb D.C. out of existence. And this is because, apparently, people of this type & kind simply haven't evolved enough to expect anything different.
I don`t believe that this is the case. The sheeple will follow wherever "society" leads, if the US were to gradually evolve, or even change overnight through revolution, into a stable anarchy I don`t think most people would care. I observed in my last post that most people are too concerned with their own lives to worry about political and social issues in any great detail, most peoples involement goes about as far as watching CNN. I don`t think it is so much a matter of evolution, it is simply education. People have been brainwashed into treating with fear and distrust people who do not share the views of the majority, indeed, people fear anyone who has any real views at all. For an example of such brainwashing see the governments "drug education programs", most people who are against legalisation of drugs do not even know why they think drugs should be illegal, they have simply taken on a point of view the majority of people seem to share, maybe subconsciously to gain acceptance, more often because it just does not directly concern them and they do not care. This brainwashing, and I will stay with the drug prohibition example because I believe it is a good one, is so pervasive and so powerful that if one were to ask someone who has never known a drug dealer to draw a picture of one, the result would likely be a young, black male who was carring a gun and appeared in a confrontational pose. Most people also don`t have the time or the interest to educate themselves about issues such as these, the government says drugs kill, so people think that anyone who uses the governments "nasty chemical of the year" (tm) is going to drop dead any minute.
Now, crypto was supposed to allow for the possibility of not having to deal with these people directly; it was supposed to usher in the new technological era whereby one could "route around" and generally avoid messing with Government Mongers, from negotiating for the right to breathe on one's own Maintenance Schedule.
I honestly believe this prediction has, to some extent, come about. Currently the technology may be limited, but on a forum such as this for example, I can post anonymously, or use a pseudonym, I can use digital signatures on my anonymous postings to accumulate reputation capital, I will, soon, be able to send you fully anonymous digital cash in payment for goods or information, often neither of us would need ever know the true identity of the other. Of course all of this offers little protection when your front door is kicked in by the thugs, but that is a property not of the technology but of humans. If I wanted to lead a totally untraceable and anonymous life I could travel around the place, my net persona would of course remain the same so I could continue to accumulate reputation capital regardless of my geographical location, I could pay for all my necessary transactions by cash, I could use false ID, false SSNs, false names etc. to withhold my true identity. You only get out what you put in, if people expect technology to totally remove any responsibility for vigilance from them, then they are mislead. Technology can ease the burden, and allows one to keep the same virtual identity whilst moving around, it allows you to use anonymity yet gain reputation, the technology will evolve, and will eventually be so pervasive and powerful that it will result in the downfall of the government.
Well, so much for an anarchic life of Independent Means. I must say, from the posts I've been reading these past several days, I haven't seen very imaginative ideas for dealing with the problems which dull governments create.
I can see why you might say this, but I must ask why we need imaginative ideas? - The old ones, involving guns and other weapons sound OK to me. If you really want imaginative ideas go ask Jim Bell, his carbon fibres idea was sure one I`d never heard of before.
It is typical of dull governments that when pressed to the wall they resort to desperate, mediocre ways of dealing with problems - like obfuscation, exaggerated charges of evil intent, physical violence; all signs of a limited intellectual capacity for coming to terms with the facts of reality (the problems they face as Protectors of Goodness & Justice (tm) ).
Whether they choose to use such powers or not all governments are able to force their will on the people by use of force. Whether they use them or not the very act of posessing the powers is criminal in itself, as in doing so the government assumes a position of superiority over its people. Of course, regardless of their initial form all governments eventually "evolve" into forces for repression and evil, it is the means by which they attempt to retain their position of power. The thought that a government, as a group of people who believe in their right to dictate to the people who happen to live in their part of the playground, could ever attempt to come to terms with it`s own downfall is incomprehensible, there is no such thing as permenant government, which seems to suggest that anarchy is more stable, as it is therefore the default condition approached by societies with governments.
I would have expected newer, more creative ("evolved") ideas from scientists, mathematicians, physicists, computer-savvy members.
This is true, I think most cypherpunks, myself included, tend to prefer sitting around chatting about ethical questions and blowing things up, than actually discussing specific ways to improve the situation. Your style of discourse in your post suggests you believe that the most effective way to go about achieving a better society and a better form of government is the reform the present system. I agree that this is probably the method most likely to get good results, but from an idealogical point of view I am unable to even contemplate advocating anything based on the present corrupt and evil system. To do so sends the wrong message to the people in power, it tells them we are "reasonable people", that we are willing to fight on their terms, sometimes radical statements and radical actions are the only way to go. Datacomms Technologies data security Paul Bradley, Paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk Paul@crypto.uk.eu.org, Paul@cryptography.uk.eu.org Http://www.cryptography.home.ml.org/ Email for PGP public key, ID: FC76DA85 "Don`t forget to mount a scratch monkey"
participants (2)
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Blanc
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Paul Bradley