[Rant] Flame threads
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Well, this is getting real unpleasant... So far we have at least three distinct flame threads going on and all of them are being pretty fucking pointless. I am gpoing to address a few issues concerning this just to get them off my chest and then I am going to drop the issue. Alice and the Net Scrooge thread: I agree that Netscape owes a bit more to people who help them out, but some of your statements come from so far into left field that they are suffering from lack of oxygen. Where does AT&T come into the break of SSL and Netscape? AT&T may licence Netscape, but they do not own it. As a licence, I cannot see how they would bear any financial responsibility for fixes, breaks or other security breaches. The only reason I can see for the anger directed against them is because they are a big company. Still, your arguments do not follow. As for Netscape... They have been trying pretty damn hard to clean up their act. They are actually FIXING bugs that are being reported and not just forwarding them to Dave Null. This is an incredible improvement over past versions. I think the IPO has had a positive effect becuase now they have to act like a real company and have real quality control. This is a good thing! Hopefully they will keep up the good work on bug fixes. (We will see if they have yet fixed the HP4 print header bug in 2.0b4 though...) The Anti-Jeff/Matt/AT&T/Netscape thread: People are not a wholly owned subsidiary of their company. I judge people by their actions and not who they work for. Jeff Weinstien has worked pretty hard to get things done right within Netscape. That is not an easy feat. (I know this from experience.) He may sound defensive at times, but who would not after some of the shit he has to take from idiots who have no clue as to what it takes to get things done in a corporate environment. So far he seems to be doing a pretty damn good job for Netscape and the crypto community at large. As for Matt Blaze. He has done more for the crypto community as a whole that most anyone I can name. His accomplisments are pretty impresive. Anyone who can break Clipper and describe the break in just eight pages deseves a bit more credit than the anon-twits give him credit for. (Plus CFS and the various other crypto code he maintains and distributes.) So far the attacks on Jeff and Matt as being somehow corrupt seem more to weaken any efforts this list has and not to help them. Fred Cohen: You have no respect for the freedom or opinions of others. You expect the net to operate under your terms and under your rules. You want people to be "responsible". From what I have read here that seems to mean "punishable". I do not like some of flames I have seen, but I do not threated legal action against them. You have. I have meet the keeper of the list. He is a very nice guy and i would not want to see him go through hardship because of some whacko with a faschist control complex. Fred -- Go somewhere else. I suggest you get together with Dan Gannon and his ilk. I think you will find him more to your liking. (Or maybe the $cientologists. They are into sueing anyone who disagrees with them. I am sure they will help you start a list with your control fetishes in mind. Maybe you can borrow a few of their lawyers.) BTW, Fred has been killfiled on my mailreader. I am sick of listening to the twit. To understand what an honor this is... He is the only person I have killfiled on this or any mailinglist. Sorry to inject this much noise to the list. I am pretty damn hot over the amount of shit I have waded through in the last few days. The legal threats from Fred were the final straw. If toad.com ever needs financial support fighting legal battles from twits such as Fred, they will have my support! I know Perry will find all of this off topic. It probibly is... It just needed to be said due to my own peace of mind. Back to the regular scheduled flamethrowing... -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: 2.6.2 iQEVAwUBMN4ToeQCP3v30CeZAQFQHQf/U7xnRgq+J50EbEE2qXyPTDjKxq3O1Px1 kY2TtVfSCa5202PL8n7PrMDq9OSvz+IlK1/jmGR8vwncbUerWbZCht23rzK5Kxfn FnCMPZg0/dCSg/2wsh4O71VU759Gs7lv7cPW2PX2Cjv2RhQ5dqixjui1Tai6DHvG MSUREvyZf113DJEpWp9GzIARaZVoUK74YgKHnQxjZjYtTI7AqMs+45bf9DyBwYkc HugoHdsJJ4YuAoozSfuejIkPqlxLY9FDc+4jZBpf6VUr7NpAhYEhrg4VdeENe293 Vd5rJZb0295rDeqIz16hOkoTlQ7vSIglttXufzFNjQVcqaV8YJPSQw== =QObR -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- | Remember: Life is not always champagne. Sometimes it is REAL pain. | |"The moral PGP Diffie taught Zimmerman unites all| Disclaimer: | | mankind free in one-key-steganography-privacy!" | Ignore the man | |`finger -l alano@teleport.com` for PGP 2.6.2 key | behind the keyboard.| | http://www.teleport.com/~alano/ | alano@teleport.com |
Sorry to post this to the list. I would normally only post it in private to the sender, but since the sender has decided to speak without listening I guess the only way to get the message back to them is by indirect communication. Will someone on the list please forward this reply to the original sender on my behalf? ...
Fred Cohen:
You have no respect for the freedom or opinions of others. You expect the net to operate under your terms and under your rules. You want people to be "responsible".
I know it's a lot to ask - being responsible - but I think it's the only way cypherpunks will survive in the coming environment.
From what I have read here that seems to mean "punishable".
With rights come responsibilities. If you want the right of free speech, you have to use it responsibly - otherwise, you will lose the right - and quite possible lose it for me as well.
I do not like some of flames I have seen, but I do not threated legal action against them. You have. I have meet the keeper of the list. He is a very nice guy and i would not want to see him go through hardship because of some whacko with a faschist control complex.
Since you don't know me, you have no idea of whether these statements are true. Put yourself in my place. I posted no messages to the net and yet I was publicly accused without any cause of doing things I did not do by someone who knew that I didn't do them. When I complained to that person *in private* he published my personal mail to the list. As a result, you and others on the list are publicly calling me names like a whacko with a faschist control complex. It's not a matter of flames - it's a matter of intentionally and maliciously perpetrating a falsehood about me in a manner and fashion designed to damage my reputation. That's different than voicing your honest opinion and different than frivolous speech. It's within your freedom of speech to say a lot of senseless things - but it's not within your freedom of speech to intentionally perpetrate damaging falsehoods about other people. Your name calling is so outrageous that nobody is likely to take you seriously, and for that reason probably is not libelous - at least not at the level you do it today, but what Perry did was something quite different. His statement could well be taken seriously - he has not denied knowing that it was a falsehood - and it was clearly intended to damage my reputation.
Fred -- Go somewhere else. I suggest you get together with Dan Gannon and his ilk. I think you will find him more to your liking. (Or maybe the $cientologists. They are into sueing anyone who disagrees with them. I am sure they will help you start a list with your control fetishes in mind. Maybe you can borrow a few of their lawyers.)
I have a better idea. I have as much right to be here or anywhere else as anyone in the world. Anyone who says I don't could easily be accused of being a "whacko with a faschist control complex", but I won't make such accusations in public against you. It is you who can't stand the heat of openly discussing one of the central issues of cypherpunks - responsibility and freedom relating to speech. The reason you can't stand serious conversation is because your position is unsupportable.
BTW, Fred has been killfiled on my mailreader. I am sick of listening to the twit. To understand what an honor this is... He is the only person I have killfiled on this or any mailinglist.
People who close their minds to communication and choose to make one-way proclamations doom themseleves to ignorance. -> See: Info-Sec Heaven at URL http://all.net/ Management Analytics - 216-686-0090 - PO Box 1480, Hudson, OH 44236
participants (2)
-
Alan Olsen -
fc＠all.net