TollRoad (CA 91) and anonymity (fwd)
From: gregbrooks@earthlink.net (Greg Brooks) Newsgroups: misc.transport.road,rec.autos.driving,ca.driving Subject: TollRoad (CA 91) and anonymity Date: 26 Jan 1996 03:08:09 -0500 Organization: Woo Studios Ltd. Lines: 103 Sender: dc@panix3.panix.com Message-ID: <xz3vilzcr9y.fsf_-_@panix3.panix.com> References: <4cv5j5$9ar@news.netvoyage.net> <dmoorman-1101961517300001@d189.nb.interaccess.com> <hatunenDL1F08.ILx@netcom.com> <4d6a2u$rh9@curly.cc.emory.edu> <hatunenDL3615.63@netcom.com> <1996Jan15.033217@clstac> <DLBBxG.5v7@freenet.carleton.ca> <gregbrooks-2201962151180001@gregbrooks.earthlink.net> <xz3wx6g8svx.fsf@panix3.panix.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: panix3.panix.com In-reply-to: dc@panix3.panix.com's message of 25 Jan 1996 05:34:43 -0500 X-Newsreader: Gnus v5.0.13
From gregbrooks@earthlink.net Thu Jan 25 12:30:45 1996 Date: Thu, 25 Jan 1996 09:39:18 -0800 To: Minister of Truth <dc@panix.com> From: gregbrooks@earthlink.net (Greg B.) Subject: Re: Tolls and private highways (was: Re: private highway?)
The following message is a courtesy copy of an article that has been posted as well.
[please post my response to the appropriate usenet groups -- I'm at work and only have email here at my office.]
[1] How easy is it to clone a valid toll box thingie (the thing you buy and put in your car) ? Such cloning has been a problem with cellular phones.
There's a custom chip inside the transponder, so cloning is going to be pretty much impossible without access to a supply of those chips. Additionally, the communications between the transponder and the antenna array, as well as between the array and our computer system, are encrypted.
[2] How actually does one buy a toll thingie and put money into an account ? Are they on sale at 7-11 or gas stations, or where ?
We offer the transponders via mail (you can call an 800 number for an application) and via a customer-service center for walk-ins. There's some talk of exploring mass market channels, but nothing firm yet.
[3] How does one add more money to a thingie ? Or does one add money to an account, and leave the thingie unchanged ?
The thingie remains unchanged. (Sounds prophetic, no?) When you sign up for an account and transponder, here's what happens: If you sign up for a credit-card account, we take an imprint of your card in lieu of a deposit on the transponder, and we start your account off with a minimum balance of $40. You, as a customer, agree to let us go back to your credit card and replenish the account based on a pre-agreed amount when the balance reaches a minimum level (typically $10). We also do the same for checking accounts (automatic withdrawl) and have cash options for those customers who aren't comfy with recurring automatic transactions on their card or account. The replenishment of the accounts is system-based -- that is, you don't need to physically bring your transponder in for a "fill up."
[4] If one is required to give a name when setting up an account is it an offense to give a false name ?
We have an anonymous account option.
[5] I have concerns about the privacy of the information collected about who goes where when. I suspect that your company will comply with a court order or search warrant rather than dual to the death with the SWAT team. How often and how thoroughly do you purge your records ?
Our records are much like those kept by the phone company -- they're sealed to the public and to official requests that aren't accompanied by a court order. One area where we're actually more concerned about privacy than the state of California is in the area of mailing lists. Quite simply, we'll never sell our customer list to anyone for any reason -- but even the state DMV sells lists. We don't ever purge our records.
[6] How many intersections/on/off/ramps are there ?
The project is a true express lanes configuration -- no intermediate access. Basically, you get on at one end and get off 10 miles later. Flexible channelizers form the barrier between the freeway and the project, so in an emergency you could get out if you needed to.
[7] What is the speed limit and who set it ?
Because the project was dedicated as part of the state highway system before we opened to the public, the speed limit is the same as the adjacent freeway -- 65 mph.
[8] What is the largest/heaviest/most-wheeled vehicle you accept ?
No trucks hauling boats or large horse trailers. No 18-wheelers. Bobtail trucks are OK, I believe (I'll double-check this).
Hope this helps!
//greg brooks gregbrooks@earthlink.net
<Questions to and answers from the CA91 administrators:>
................and have cash options for those customers who aren't comfy with recurring automatic transactions on their card or account.
This seems to be a new-speak definition of cash: that they send you a bill instead of making an automatic withdrawal?
We have an anonymous account option.
Great. I wonder how many of their customers take advantage of this option, and how it works. The emitting chip is stated not to contain any information other than 'ID so-and-so passes point X now'. Does one have to keep track of one's credit status and go to an office and pay with paper bills in advance? Not very convenient.
Our records are much like those kept by the phone company -- they're sealed to the public and to official requests that aren't accompanied by a court order.
Ah, the records are GAKed. For convenience, the PD could as well tap into the system in real-time. They have always thousands of stolen vehicles to watch out for.
We don't ever purge our records.
What would be the reason for this? When a customer has paid his bill, the detailed records have no consequences for their profit. For long-term highway traffic analysis they could as well create deidentified entries. Stockholm is to get the first toll system ever in Sweden, in a few years (for crossing into the inner city). From what has come out so far, they are contemplating the use of Chaum's anonymous toll system (alledgedly in place in Dutch cities). How does this system work, cryptographically? (I haven't found anything on Digicash's web site.) Asgaard
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