Er...there are a *lot* of different kinds of mu*'s, and at least as many different definitions of "wizard". In some worlds they call people wizards who would simply be players elsewhere; in other worlds "wizards" have godlike status. Similarly with "programmer"; it can mean an advanced builder, or it can mean somebody who actually hacks the C underpinnings. You'd have to be a hardcore afficionado of the whole range to have basis for sweeping statements. (The kind that I'm least familiar with is apparently the most common, where people earn wizard status by advancing in some kind of game, but there's endless variation. When people create their own worlds, they tend to create ranks to suit their own tastes, too. Gonna legislate world creation? ;-) Doug -- a sometime but partially cured mu* wizard and programmer