Re: Responding to Pre-dawn Unannounced Ninja Raids
At 6:42 AM 7/19/96, snow wrote:
On Thu, 18 Jul 1996, Doug Hughes wrote:
If people break into my house with the element of surprise wearing all black in the middle of the night, they have the element of surprise FIRMLY on their side.. I'd have to believe that reaching for a gun was the most stupid thing I could do in the entire world in this sort of circumstance. "You'd be right, but you'd be dead" - Dr. SNMP If you don't reach for a gun, at least you have the 'chance' for restitution on your side. If you're dead, you have no options.
If you are trained a certain way, you _are_ going to reach for a weapon, and hell, at least then my kid will have enough money to go to whatever college she wants.
Snow is absolutely right! Surprised in the night, with no clear identification of the entrants (and yelled "Police!!" claims are used by home invaders, so I would not trust this anyway), a trained person will instinctively reach for his weapon. I again ask what was so wrong with the "You are surrounded. Come out with your hands up." routine of years past. Instead of anonymous ninjas in paramilitary black raiding a house and shooting anything that moves, use some "due process." And "due process" is what it's about. Presentation of a warrant, or at least pretty careful announcement of identity. Blasting down doors without presentation of an arrest or search warrant is just not the American way. Are there circumstances that can ever justify no-warning attacks? I suppose so, such as when clear evidence of, say, a bomb-making or terrorist cell is invovled. Neither condition was met at at either Ruby Ridge or Waco, nor in the vast number of midnight drug raids. If a black-clad ninja enters my house without warning, I'll have to react the only way I know how, by reaching for my gun. I don't have the luxury of freezing, exposing my neck (wolf-style), and hoping that the ninjas are "just" the police. And very interestingly, many cops are saying the same thing. They realize that the dangers of being killed in a firefight in the confusion of a pre-dawn raid are not worth the meager gains. And SWAT-raiding the wrong house has resulted in many a million-dollar judgements agasint police departments. --Tim May Boycott "Big Brother Inside" software! We got computers, we're tapping phone lines, we know that that ain't allowed. ---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---- Timothy C. May | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money, tcmay@got.net 408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA | knowledge, reputations, information markets, Licensed Ontologist | black markets, collapse of governments. "National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."
At 1:49 AM -0700 7/20/96, Timothy C. May wrote:
At 6:42 AM 7/19/96, snow wrote:
On Thu, 18 Jul 1996, Doug Hughes wrote:
If people break into my house with the element of surprise wearing all black in the middle of the night, they have the element of surprise FIRMLY on their side.. I'd have to believe that reaching for a gun was the most stupid thing I could do in the entire world in this sort of circumstance. "You'd be right, but you'd be dead" - Dr. SNMP If you don't reach for a gun, at least you have the 'chance' for restitution on your side. If you're dead, you have no options.
If you are trained a certain way, you _are_ going to reach for a weapon, and hell, at least then my kid will have enough money to go to whatever college she wants.
Snow is absolutely right! Surprised in the night, with no clear identification of the entrants (and yelled "Police!!" claims are used by home invaders, so I would not trust this anyway), a trained person will instinctively reach for his weapon.
I again ask what was so wrong with the "You are surrounded. Come out with your hands up." routine of years past.
Probably something to do with flushing dope down the toilet, or destroying evidence. Perhaps it's too much to expect them to disconnect the sewer line and hit your interior with a water hose and an electricity cut-off before raiding it. David
On Fri, 19 Jul 1996, ichudov@algebra.com (Igor Chudov @ home) wrote:
I suggest wiring an anti-tank mine to your door every night. If ninjas break in, everyone goes to hell. No need to wake up and be alert in sleep -- all will be done automatically. So before that ninja raid you will sleep better.
A claymore mine would be much better. It would send the "ninjas" to hell, without necessarily forcing you to join them. On Fri, 19 Jul 1996, David Sternlight <david@sternlight.com> wrote: [Snip]
Probably something to do with flushing dope down the toilet, or destroying evidence. Perhaps it's too much to expect them to disconnect the sewer line and hit your interior with a water hose and an electricity cut-off before raiding it.
If tests are available that can detect trace amounts of drugs in your urine 30 days after snorting cocaine, they ought to be able to detect traces of drugs in the toilet bowl/sewer pipe 5 minutes after you flush... The whole "war on drugs" has been an excuse for abrogating our Constitutional rights. Much of the impetus for banning "assault weapons" and "Saturday night specials" is a by-product of media hype of crimes committed by drug dealers and gangs. Drug crime has been used as an excuse to involve the military in law enforcement, (That's how the FBI got the tanks involved at Waco!) and it has been the primary factor in the incrased popularity of SWAT raids. Jonathan Wienke "1935 will go down in history! For the first time a civilized nation has full gun registration! Our streets will be safer, our police more efficient, and the world will follow our lead in the future!" --Adolf Hitler "46. The U.S. government declares a ban on the possession, sale, transportation, and transfer of all non-sporting firearms. ...Consider the following statement: I would fire upon U.S. citizens who refuse or resist confiscation of firearms banned by the U.S. government." --The 29 Palms Combat Arms Survey http://www.ksfo560.com/Personalities/Palms.htm 1935 Germany = 1996 U.S.? Key fingerprint = 30 F9 85 7F D2 75 4B C6 BC 79 87 3D 99 21 50 CB P.S. Chesnokov = Chudov = Vulis = Sternlight = Detweiler
ichudov@algebra.com (Igor Chudov @ home) writes:
JonWienk@ix.netcom.com wrote:
P.S. Chesnokov = Chudov = Vulis = Sternlight = Detweiler
That's an interesting equation.
Am I talking to myself? I'm definitely not talking to SternFUD. --- Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps
On Sat, 20 Jul 1996 JonWienk@ix.netcom.com wrote:
On Fri, 19 Jul 1996, ichudov@algebra.com (Igor Chudov @ home) wrote:
ninjas break in, everyone goes to hell. No need to wake up and be alert in sleep -- all will be done automatically. So before that ninja raid you will sleep better. A claymore mine would be much better. It would send the "ninjas" to hell, without necessarily forcing you to join them.
You pop a claymore in a building with any substance up to the level of concrete re-enforced, and you _will_ be going with them. This is only to be used as a last resort, like calling in B-52 strikes on your own location. Petro, Christopher C. petro@suba.com <prefered for any non-list stuff> snow@smoke.suba.com
At 1:02 PM -0700 7/20/96, JonWienk@ix.netcom.com wrote:
Probably something to do with flushing dope down the toilet, or destroying evidence. Perhaps it's too much to expect them to disconnect the sewer line and hit your interior with a water hose and an electricity cut-off before raiding it.
If tests are available that can detect trace amounts of drugs in your urine 30 days after snorting cocaine, they ought to be able to detect traces of drugs in the toilet bowl/sewer pipe 5 minutes after you flush...
"Your honor, I don't know who flushed it. I have many visitors to my home." is rather different than being caught with a large stash of cocaine on your night table. David
David Sternlight wrote:
"Your honor, I don't know who flushed it. I have many visitors to my home." is rather different than being caught with a large stash of cocaine on your night table.
It is not surprising that after the society decided to label natural economic activities (drug dealing) as crimes, it has to resort to unnatural methods of enforcing the unnatural legislation. Drug consumption (just as alcohol consumption) may be bad for the individual consumers. But it is a matter of individual informed choice. If the government (or society, to be more exact) decides to take away a natural right to consume whatever one pleases, it has no choice but to go farther and to take away more rights, for example rights to privacy and safety in their own homes. The problem is not the drug dealers (and not alcohol traffickers in the thirties), the problem is lack of respect for the freedom of individual consumers, which transforms itself into abolition of other rights. Here's what milton friedman said: ``restrictions on economic freedom inevitably affect freedom in general'' (Free to Choose). It's basically right. It is the same as the wisdom that bad deeds that one commits inevitably lead to more bad deeds. - Igor.
ichudov@algebra.com (Igor Chudov @ home) writes:
David Sternlight wrote: <spam spam spam spam spam spam spam spam spam spam spam spam spam spam spam>
It is not surprising that after the society decided to label natural economic activities (drug dealing) as crimes, it has to resort to unnatural methods of enforcing the unnatural legislation. ...
Please do not respond to anything "Dr." David Sternlight posts to this mailing list, no matter what nonsense he says. The asshole is starved for attension. He's just trolling for flames. Please ignore him. Thank you. --- Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps
On Fri, 19 Jul 1996, David Sternlight wrote:
At 1:49 AM -0700 7/20/96, Timothy C. May wrote:
At 6:42 AM 7/19/96, snow wrote:
On Thu, 18 Jul 1996, Doug Hughes wrote:
If people break into my house with the element of surprise wearing all black in the middle of the night, they have the element of surprise If you don't reach for a gun, at least you have the 'chance' for restitution on your side. If you're dead, you have no options. If you are trained a certain way, you _are_ going to reach for Snow is absolutely right! Surprised in the night, with no clear identification of the entrants (and yelled "Police!!" claims are used by home invaders, so I would not trust this anyway), a trained person will instinctively reach for his weapon. Probably something to do with flushing dope down the toilet, or destroying evidence. Perhaps it's too much to expect them to disconnect the sewer line and hit your interior with a water hose and an electricity cut-off before raiding it.
Of course escalating a war against your own citizens makes more sense than legalizie the crap and letting the idiots die. After all, big brudder has the right to control the substances I put into my boddy. Petro, Christopher C. petro@suba.com <prefered for any non-list stuff> snow@smoke.suba.com
I again ask what was so wrong with the "You are surrounded. Come out with your hands up." routine of years past. Instead of anonymous ninjas in paramilitary black raiding a house and shooting anything that moves, use some "due process."
And "due process" is what it's about. Presentation of a warrant, or at least pretty careful announcement of identity. Blasting down doors without presentation of an arrest or search warrant is just not the American way.
Are there circumstances that can ever justify no-warning attacks? I suppose so, such as when clear evidence of, say, a bomb-making or terrorist cell is invovled. Neither condition was met at at either Ruby Ridge or Waco, nor in the vast number of midnight drug raids.
"No Knock" warrants came about in effort to limit the ability of the suspect to dispose of evidence - another result of the "war on drugs." - r.w.
participants (7)
-
David Sternlight -
dlv＠bwalk.dm.com -
ichudov＠algebra.com -
JonWienk＠ix.netcom.com -
Rabid Wombat -
snow -
tcmay＠got.net