Re: Voluntary Governments?
In message <9408221729.AA14060@fnord.sybgate.sybase.com> Elton Wildermuth writes:
Jason Solinsky said:
Government has nothing to do with throwing people into prison or using guns. It is an entity that exercises authority. Or an entity that enforces laws.
Er. No. Government has _everything_ to do with throwing people into prisons, _and_ with using guns. Further, "exercises authority" is a code phrase that means "throws people into prisons and uses guns."
If you want a working definition of government, it would have to be "a group of people who have assumed to themselves the exclusive power to regulate and use coercive force within a set of established borders."
I grew up in a small town of 5,000. It had a city government. The county government was in the same town. No one denies that California has a government, I think. And then there was the US government. And we had city police, the sheriff's office, the Highway Patrol, and the FBI paid an occasional visit. So drop the word 'exclusive'. In our high school we had a student government. We had no prisons and no guns. You can't simply take over the ownership of words in the English language. 'Government' is indeed the name used for an entity that exercises authority or enforces laws. There can be more than one government exercising control over the same geographical or political area, and that control need not be effected with guns. -- Jim Dixon
So drop the word 'exclusive'.
In our high school we had a student government. We had no prisons and no guns.
And the 'government' had no authority without the city and such other systems (ie government) ok. Also, if the students got out of hand they can be thrown out of school or otherwise punished. Authority in the sense of government regulation (if the word is used correctly) means that the persons assuming the authority can impose actions upon you and your property WITHOUT your permission AND use force if necessary. A police officer caries that gun on their hip because they are saying EXPLICITLY that they will shoot you dead if provoked enough. Provoking a authority figure means not doing what they want done the way they want it done.
You can't simply take over the ownership of words in the English language. 'Government' is indeed the name used for an entity that exercises authority or enforces laws. There can be more than one government exercising control over the same geographical or political area, and that control need not be effected with guns.
Yes, there can be more than one governmetn and each of them is in a heirarchy which EXPLICITLY defines what their individual jobs are. Should the states get out of hand you can bet the feds will send in big guns. You strike me as a person who trusts governments.
Date: Tue, 23 Aug 94 18:15:12 GMT From: jdd@aiki.demon.co.uk (Jim Dixon) I grew up in a small town of 5,000. It had a city government. The county government was in the same town. No one denies that California has a government, I think. And then there was the US government. And we had city police, the sheriff's office, the Highway Patrol, and the FBI paid an occasional visit. So drop the word 'exclusive'. The government still excludes non-governmental authorities from using violence. In our high school we had a student government. We had no prisons and no guns. Then you were a club. Or, you were a government whose rules were enforced by other governments. area, and that control need not be effected with guns. -russ <nelson@crynwr.com> http://www.crynwr.com/crynwr/nelson.html Crynwr Software | Crynwr Software sells packet driver support | ask4 PGP key 11 Grant St. | +1 315 268 1925 (9201 FAX) | What is thee doing about it? Potsdam, NY 13676 | LPF member - ask me about the harm software patents do.
Russell Nelson says:
In our high school we had a student government. We had no prisons and no guns.
Then you were a club.
Indeed. Why do you think most university students are as apathetic as they are about their student "government"? Largely, I'd say, because student "government" bodies possess no real power and do nothing -- they are "governments" in the same sense that white styrofoam carved into an appropriate shape is whipped cream. (I once was part of a debate held by Columbia University's Philolexian Society on the topic "Resolved: Student Government is Amazingly Lame", in which I noted that the low probability of a student government coup d'etat complete with tanks rolling about the campus, and of the following student government dictatorship run by a student military junta, demonstrated that the student "government" wasn't a government but a weak way to keep students placated, devoid even of the mild entertainment the occassional revolt could bring.) Perry
participants (4)
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jdd＠aiki.demon.co.uk -
Jim choate -
nelson＠crynwr.com -
Perry E. Metzger