Alex Strasheim <alex@omaha.com> wrote:

The sociology and politics of evolving standards is an important issue on the net, and it seems to me that things are a little more complicated than some posters are admitting. If cypherpunks are going to have an influence on how things turn out, we're going to have to come to terms with the issues Tim has been raising.

Can someone (Tim maybe?) clearly delimit exactly what the issues Tim has been raising _are_? As far as I can tell, the issue is simply that current tools out there to deal with enhanced mail features (like PGP encryption) just aren't easy enough to use yet. There seem to be two simple ways to deal with this: 1) Try to develop easier to use tools 2) Try to convince people that the current tools aren't as hard to use as they think. I am absolutely convinced that mailers supporting MIME in a rational way, along with the new PGP MIME specifications, are the answer to number 1. I feel confident that anyone who examines the MIME specs will agree that if mailers supported it reasonably, dealing with PGP would be easy. I'm not sure everyone here who is deprecating MIME understands what it really is. MIME has nothing to do with annoying messages on your screen, and a reasonable mailer wouldn't give you those messages. But I think people on the list are doing both of those two things. People who know how to code, and who think that current tools _aren't_ easy enough to use, are putting more emphasis on #1 (whether they're solution involves MIME or not). People who don't have the coding skills or inclination, or who think the current tools are significantly easier to use then most people realize, are putting more emphais on #2. Those are the real issues here I think. The convincing people part is really secondary, in my opinion, because the current tools are nowhere near good enough. The developing easier tools is important, and if anyone wants to discuss how to do this, I'm certainly interested in it. Like I said, I'm convinced MIME is the answer, but a lot more needs to be said then "MIME is the answer" (like what is meant by my phrase "supporting MIME in a rational way"), and I'm also certainly willing to consider the idea that MIME isn't the answer after all. But comments like "well, MIME is completely irrelevant, email will eventually disappear in favor the web," or similar stuff, just leaves me confused, and seems completely irrelevant to me. The issue is making PGP easier to use. If anyone really thinks that the way to do this somehow involves HTTP, then I'd be glad to listen to an explanation of that. But as far as I can tell, whether you are talking about email or ftp or HTTP, the answer is about MIME, and not about those transport protocols.