Re: Respect for privacy != Re: exposure=deterence?
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- On 15 Jan 96, Rich Graves wrote:
But government employees should only be held accountable for their actions as government employees. If the situation warrants, go ahead and tap their offices, break into their work computers, etc. But don't fuck with their personal lives.
Oh, my! A little sensitive, are we? Aren't you even a *little* struck by the fact that fucking with people's personal lives is *precisely* what errant government officials *do*???
Lots of people on this list have the power to carry out their own tyranny over both individuals and groups. All it takes in today's fragile online world is a little specialized knowledge. I don't think it's ethical to use this power without serious thought.
Some might opine that the reason we have so many abuses is that so *few* people use the power they hold in their hands to set things right. Even the well-intentioned seem to expect someone *else* to do their maintenance of the republic for them.
The line between government and non-government is increasingly blurry anyway.
That's part of The Game, Rich. It makes it all that much easier for people to dismiss attempts at delineation by saying things like, oh, "The line between government and non-government is increasingly blurry anyway."
Everybody gets something from the government, be it roads or an education.
Oh. Okay, then. That makes it OK for them to indict you to keep their statistics up. Works for me!
Why should you be more suspicious of the guy getting paid $10/hour to deliver your mail by the government than the private businessman getting millions of dollars in government subsidies?
I'm not. Maybe *you* should be more suspicious of the guy getting paid $100K of direct government money to manage a national campaign of low-key terror than you should of the private businessman unable to pay himself because he *must* pay his employees and the government doesn't leave him enough for his own paycheck. This last is a *lot* more common than the "private businessman getting millions of dollars in government subsidies."
I think we're fundamentally asking the wrong question. I only see relative power. I'd estimate that Bill Gates is more powerful than Fidel Castro in many respects. He's certainly a lot more powerful than your average postal clerk.
"Looking for pow'r... in all the wrong places, (la-tee-dah)..." Admit it, Rich, you only see harmful power where you want to see it, and that isn't in government -- it is in private hands, particularly *corporate* hands. Geez, but you'd think that left-handed university cookie cutter would have gotten dulled and broken by now, and that they'd have fashioned a new one. I'd estimate that the Postmaster General is more powerful than Fidel Castro in many respects. He's certainly a lot more powerful than your average private businessman.
P.S. For the Good of the Order, I'm temporarily ignoring jimbell
That's quite all right. We can be sure he won't ignore *you*. We Jurgar Din (that will have to suffice: I do not yet live in a free country) +"The battle, Sir, is not to the strong alone. It is to the+ +vigilant, the active, the brave. Besides, Sir, we have no + +election. If we were base enough to desire it, it is now + +too late to retire from the contest." -Patrick Henry 1775 + -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: 2.6.2 iQBVAwUBMP9aREjw99YhtpnhAQG1ggIAhKmRWWIAIxCrmBemK79MDnnvko2Y+ooj i2GoxrHhDC9cr98O45iEdo+spcVETbMryvVgf3i4MCRr7t2iRwoRxQ== =nMvR -----END PGP SIGNATURE-----
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- On Fri, 19 Jan 1996, Anonymous (signed We Jurgar Din, allegedly 0x21B699E1, not on MIT key server) wrote:
I'm not. Maybe *you* should be more suspicious of the guy getting paid $100K of direct government money to manage a national campaign of low-key terror than you should of the private businessman unable to pay himself because he *must* pay his employees and the government doesn't leave him enough for his own paycheck. This last is a *lot* more common than the "private businessman getting millions of dollars in government subsidies."
Er, yes. And I am. Struggling businessmen are also a lot more common than guys and gals getting paid direct and indirect government money for high- key terror and murder, of which there's a lot. What's your point?
I think we're fundamentally asking the wrong question. I only see relative power. I'd estimate that Bill Gates is more powerful than Fidel Castro in many respects. He's certainly a lot more powerful than your average postal clerk.
"Looking for pow'r... in all the wrong places, (la-tee-dah)..." Admit it, Rich, you only see harmful power where you want to see it, and that isn't in government -- it is in private hands, particularly *corporate* hands.
Governments and religions of all kinds have killed more people than anything else besides old age and disease. There's no denying that. But who has more influence over most people's daily lives? What are the instruments of government, and for what interests is government an instrument? Isn't it a good tactic to go after lazy or stupid corporations friendly with the government who are providing poor tools injurious to personal privacy and security? [Timed essay, 30 points. Use both sides of the CRT if necessary. Spelling counts.]
Geez, but you'd think that left-handed university cookie cutter would have gotten dulled and broken by now, and that they'd have fashioned a new one.
For whatever it's worth, I'm right-handed. I see you use public key cryptography, which like many good things was developed at a left-handed university with great respect for academic freedom. You might try visiting one to see what they're like.
I'd estimate that the Postmaster General is more powerful than Fidel Castro in many respects. He's certainly a lot more powerful than your average private businessman.
No, he's got a sinecure with a common carrier that doesn't mean much. If you meant that the folks who would intercept your mail if you're "suspected" are more powerful than Castro, I might agree, but that's not the Postmaster General. He has no power to order or stop that. I'll certainly grant you that there is a conspiracy and a secret government (broadly defined), but not everyone paid by the government is in on it, and not everyone involved is in the government.
We Jurgar Din (that will have to suffice: I do not yet live in a free country)
+"The battle, Sir, is not to the strong alone. It is to the+ +vigilant, the active, the brave. Besides, Sir, we have no + +election. If we were base enough to desire it, it is now + +too late to retire from the contest." -Patrick Henry 1775 +
While I firmly support the right to anonymonity, I find this juxtaposition ironic. I do hope that you are speaking out on the record as well. Your "Indecent Garbage" piece, <199601190944.KAA10937@utopia.hacktic.nl>, was excellent, but you can't get it published widely unless you're willing to put your "real life" John Hancock or Patrick Henry on it. Gratuitous use of pseudonymity can be counterproductive. Now nobody's going to be able to use your "bar-coded garbage" essay without being suspected of being you, which I doubt is what you want. Is anyone going to quote you in the future, as you quote Patrick Henry? I helped get Sameer quoted in PC Week and InfoWorld. Not exactly the way we'd all like, but it does point people who otherwise wouldn't think twice about crypto and privacy to www.c2.org. My 3 1/2 years in the "cookie cutter" were mostly a study of revolutions betrayed. First the Bolsheviks and their later rampage through Eastern Europe (I have a couple of close friends from Budapest, Praha, Bratislava, and Shanghai), then when that died the Cuban, Sandinista, Contra, Sendero, and Mexican. The only revolution I can think of that did not *completely* betray its principles was the American War of Independence, which wasn't really a revolution at all but a secession from a tyrannical regime. Part of the reason it did well was that remoteness and bravery led those involved to stand up for what they believed in. You can only go so far with subversion. (It also helped that the Colonial goals were very modest. Yet they still ended up with the Whiskey Rebellion, a great expansion of the practice of slavery, and the Native American genocide in short order.) Get yourself a broader education and elevate the culture. Mario Vargas Llosa, Boris Pasternak, and Milan Kundera would be particularly good for you. - -rich -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: 2.6.2 iQCVAwUBMQAEjo3DXUbM57SdAQEg0gP+Nhht/Zp39p/mcQ7GNgS3x/Db4b+CZohb QmkeC50sSEAoxOjGuV8N2PLr0yYaSdFhU/GyUeGNKbHg8acjb9D7IzsKrdXBze6F 5hWYz78O08xDST0NTMSCbRqcM2o8qKQBfgIjKGCMSc4tFnBvoLT+fG/S+wKejeID NG9NbEQuYOs= =GPRY -----END PGP SIGNATURE-----
participants (2)
-
nobody＠REPLAY.COM -
Rich Graves