Anonymous payment scheme
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- This idea just popped into my head, just as I was about to fall asleep. Being the idiot that I am, I had to get up to write it down. This idea has probably been presented before...but I haven't seen it here yet. Let's suppose myself and 10,000 of my closest friends form the First National Cypherpunk Bank and Trust. We go through all of the hassles in order to be the issuer of a Master Card or Visa. Now instead of having a credit line, it is set up as a debit card. The card's limit is how ever much you have prepaid the bank in advance. Once you have hit your prepaid amount the card no longer gets approved. Now because everything is prepaid, there is no risk to me, so I'll put any name you want on the card. The questions I have are: Is this legal in the U.S.? If so, is anyone doing it? If it's not legal in the U.S., is it legal anyplace else. If this is a gray area, why wouldn't this scheme work? If this scheme was set up, it appears to me that the infrastructure for anonymous payments/netcash is already in place. Of course the issuer would get a healthy fee for issuing the card...but then again, there truly is no such thing as a free lunch. As my 10,000 friends and I have no plans to set this up, feel free to pick it apart at will. (which I'm sure it will be) Sam ============================================================================== There is an order of things in this universe. -- Apollo, "Who Mourns for Adonais?" stardate 3468.1 ============================================================================== skaplin@skypoint.com | Finger skaplin@infinity.c2.org for | a listing of crypto related files PGP encrypted mail is accepted and | available on my auto-responder. preferred. | (Yes...the faqs are there!) | E-mail key@four11.com for PGP Key or | "...vidi vici veni" - Overheard Finger skaplin@mirage.skypoint.com | outside a Roman brothel. ============================================================================== -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: 2.6.2 iQEVAwUBLwe/6clnXxBRSgfNAQGZBAf9FAHHsI63OJ1uQo4SGAggs6Mk7BAe8Ysm oxibQfvNMN0dSPdyLjHutEm5/rtyTrRjU731QRQSDLUi0LSC9I0N5/cQsGeI+VV8 kAIiuHDq1eF4oZmZTuKIcKz42THliSAhSTkmpL8dZvcU3sJVPwIfGK5dNbQyUQHw J33h74Vg1jRIkeoodnAtTXPeUKi5HkcAp95zt8C/tGpke4+fx8QhqHSAvJgJoGdL a8clRTdilqwDfrdQlpgKHt33T5aLiYuQA8m9NpMiDKw/wEF+XvMrHYrksIUyQ2ZD gllxFl0WJcarRZTnIgtgAdA+hzQCbkfG10kcZUVTzquGcrgiKnp9ug== =l5Mr -----END PGP SIGNATURE-----
Well, I know some shops have so called 'switch' or 'smart' cards to debit your account, some of these are on their own credit line, others are not. I have an account with a bank in Britain which gives me a "VISA" Card which is actually a 'direct-debit' card. I can use it (and have) all around the world as a regular VISA card and in any 'VISA compatible' ATM. As soon as my balance drops to zero, I can no longer use it. And when I do, the money jumps out of my account immediately and can no longer be used. This is a bank-issued card, and also acts as my ATM card to access my current account - there is NO charge for this. I'm not sure exactly how that works. Whether or not VISA would accept a proposal from First National Cyberphunks or not remains to be seen... ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ jrt@AsiaOnline.Net john@AsiaOnline.Net PO Box 86141, Govt PO, Kln, HKG. Help protect the environment : This message is made from recycled electrons ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Let's suppose myself and 10,000 of my closest friends form the First National Cypherpunk Bank and Trust. We go through all of the hassles in order to be the issuer of a Master Card or Visa. Now instead of having a credit line, it is set up as a debit card. The card's limit is how ever much you have prepaid the bank in advance. Once you have hit your prepaid amount the card no longer gets approved. Now because everything is prepaid, there is no risk to me, so I'll put any name you want on the card. The questions I have are:
On Tue, 3 Jan 1995, jRT wrote:
Well, I know some shops have so called 'switch' or 'smart' cards to debit your account, some of these are on their own credit line, others are not.
I have an account with a bank in Britain which gives me a "VISA" Card which is actually a 'direct-debit' card. I can use it (and have) all around the world as a regular VISA card and in any 'VISA compatible' ATM.
Alot of the banks in the US are now offering these cards for use with checking accounts.
As soon as my balance drops to zero, I can no longer use it. And when I do, the money jumps out of my account immediately and can no longer be used.
This is a bank-issued card, and also acts as my ATM card to access my current account - there is NO charge for this. I'm not sure exactly how that works.
When a charge is made to the card it is subtracted from the balance until midnight? of that night. If the actual charge does not come in to the bank, the amount is then added back to the balance. (This was learned thru my GF who had some trouble with her card -- forgot to write down a couple of transactions and ended up at zero).
Whether or not VISA would accept a proposal from First National Cyberphunks or not remains to be seen...
I think they should. If they would is another matter. It would be similar to having a 'secret' Swiss bank account that can be accessed from anywhere in the world, converted to cash at cash machines, transferred to others, etc. I like the idea of an anonymous Visa better than some sort of new net-bank because it is already established, the mechanism for transfer is already in place, and for the most part de-bugged. If there was an Anonymous Visa debit card I'd defiantly go for it. It would certainly keep those marketing types from tracking my spending patterns. Brian ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ "Everyone is a prisoner holding their own key." | finger blane@seanet.com -- Journey | PGP 2.6 email accepted ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Alot of the banks in the US are now offering these cards for use with checking accounts.
Yes. There are also the ``secured'' credit cards where one deposits X dollars into the issuing bank and is allowed 1.5 * X in credit. Many of these will promote to ``real'' credit cards after a year or some specific amount of charging that's been paid back on time (usually about $1000). These are a godsend for those who've gone bankrupt; as such I wouldn't be terribly surprised if the issuers didn't even bother to do a credit check until the card promotes, if at all. If this is the case, what's to stop someone from filling out the application under a pseudonymous identity with a mail drop as the contact address?
I think they should. If they would is another matter. It would be similar to having a 'secret' Swiss bank account that can be accessed from anywhere in the world, converted to cash at cash machines, transferred to others, etc.
It's a great idea - at last year's Siggraph convention I needed to stay in contact with an associate 24 hours a day if need be. I discovered that in the Kinko's in the Orange County Convention Center there's a cellular phone rental machine, but it took credit cards and the people at the desk wouldn't let me rent one without one - even though I offered to leave my ID and a sizable deposit. I'm technically not old enough to get a credit card, and regardless of that fact when I spoke to someone at Barnett Bank about getting one and listed my occupation as 'Consultant' she laughed in my face. Solution: I got a secured card from a bank in Vermont. They have $500 of my money in an account, and I have a card with a $500 limit in my father's name.
If there was an Anonymous Visa debit card I'd defiantly go for it. It would certainly keep those marketing types from tracking my spending patterns.
Without a doubt. I wonder, again, if the issuing bank even _cares_ who you are if you get one of these secured cards. There was discussion here about debit/secured cards some time ago - anyone remember the upshot of the discussion? -jon ( --------[ Jonathan D. Cooper ]--------[ entropy@intnet.net ]-------- ) ( PGP 2.6.2 keyprint: 31 50 8F 82 B9 79 ED C4 5B 12 A0 35 E0 9B C0 01 ) ( home page: http://taz.hyperreal.com/~entropy/ ]---[ Key-ID: 4082CCB5 )
On Mon, 2 Jan 1995, Samuel Kaplin wrote:
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This idea just popped into my head, just as I was about to fall asleep. Being the idiot that I am, I had to get up to write it down. This idea has
....best time for ideas....between sleep and wakefulness.....:>
Let's suppose myself and 10,000 of my closest friends form the First National Cypherpunk Bank and Trust. We go through all of the hassles in order to be the issuer of a Master Card or Visa. Now instead of having a credit line, it is set up as a debit card. The card's limit is how ever
Why jump through the hoops Visa or M/C would send you through if its a DEBIT card??? You don't need them for something like that, simply the acceptance of the Internet community, that credits from another user drawn on the Cypherpunk Bank would be accepted.....which leads to your next paragraph...
much you have prepaid the bank in advance. Once you have hit your prepaid amount the card no longer gets approved. Now because everything is prepaid, there is no risk to me, so I'll put any name you want on the card. The questions I have are:
Sounds good.....and practical. ANY citizen in the world deposits with your "Bank" legal tender in an account. US dollars would likely fit the bill as they are pretty well accepted from North America to North Korea (black market maybe.....but still accepted :>). Then, when someone presents to your Bank proof of purchase/transfer etc (a digitally signed message with your PGP Key perhaps?) then you transfer a dollar figure from one account to another ...... assuming both purchaser and seller have accounts atthe Cypherpunk Bank. If the purchaser does.....but the SELLER doesn't, then (if so desired by the seller) you have three choices: 1) open an account, f/o (favour of.....sorry....I'm a Banker so pardon my lapsing now and agin into our jargon) of the seller, transferring in the requisite amount of US $ for the seller's later use (ie... then HE goes out and buys something over the 'Net). 2) wire to the sellers account (overseas?) through a correspondent bank to the sellers bank where he has an account the US $. 3) mail a draft in the appropriate US $ to the seller's designated address .....either snail mail or Fed Express, or whatever courier is selected.
Is this legal in the U.S.?
Dunno....I'm in Canada. But I know that U.S. banking arrangements are medieaval so I doubt it.
If so, is anyone doing it?
See above :>
If it's not legal in the U.S., is it legal anyplace else.
Sure.....Canada right now has a fully operational debit card system in place. You go to a supplier to make a purchase and they run your bank card through a machine just like your credit card for the purchase. Difference being, $$$ from your chequing account are debited, as opposed to to the line of credit on your credit card being debited. You have dollars in the bank sufficient for the purchase, then no problem.
If this is a gray area, why wouldn't this scheme work?
Its a perfectly workable scheme....IF...the BANK in question is trusted as the medium of exchange. Thats the ONLY thing stopping its implementation, namely having a trusted institution to handle the deposits/transfers. Lets put it this way, I think the scheme would have ALOT more acceptance if you as a seller presented your invoice for settlement at Chase Manhattan or Bank of Montreal as opposed to the Cypherpunk Bank :>.
If this scheme was set up, it appears to me that the infrastructure for anonymous payments/netcash is already in place. Of course the issuer would
Sure it is....co-ordinating the infastructure would be interesting, but doable. The main thing is....is it economically viable for the institution in question? Would there be enough commerce doneover the 'Net to justify implementation of the supporting infrastructure (ie Internet hook-up's, training of staff, etc). Once there exists a demand for the service, coupled with a reasonable rate of return to the Bank for provision of the service, then you'll see ALL the top 20 banks in the world do it. Until then, nobody will do it simply because the Cypherpunks think it is a good idea. :> <Sorry guys...I answered this online so no PGP sig this time.....> -------------------------------------------------------------------------- Mark Terka | werewolf@io.org | public key (werewolf) by Toronto,Canada | dg507@cleveland.freenet.edu | public key server or request ---------------------------------------------------------------------------
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Let's suppose myself and 10,000 of my closest friends form the First National Cypherpunk Bank and Trust. We go through all of the hassles in order to be the issuer of a Master Card or Visa. Now instead of having a credit line, it is set up as a debit card. The card's limit is how ever
Why jump through the hoops Visa or M/C would send you through if its a DEBIT card??? You don't need them for something like that, simply the acceptance of the Internet community, that credits from another user drawn on the Cypherpunk Bank would be accepted.....which leads to your next paragraph...
I was looking at at the bigger picture. Any merchant who accepts Visa or MC could now accept anonymous payments. No hassle at all on their part. They probably wouldn't even know that it was an anonymous account. It fits into the existing infrastructure very nicely. A bank in Minneapolis has a similar system in operation. They issue you a Visa card. That card automatically debits your checking account. The key would be not to have the card attached to the account. If the card is attached to any type of account, then there are reporting requirements. A more apt analogy would be the prepaid phone cards. Walk into the issuing authority, plunk your $9999.99 on the counter and ask for your card. When you've spent it all, toss the card. Sam ============================================================================== Marriage is like a cage; one sees the birds outside desperate to get in, and those inside equally desperate to get out. - Michel Eyquem de Montaigne ============================================================================== skaplin@skypoint.com | Finger skaplin@infinity.c2.org for | a listing of crypto related files PGP encrypted mail is accepted and | available on my auto-responder. preferred. | (Yes...the faqs are there!) | E-mail key@four11.com for PGP Key or | "...vidi vici veni" - Overheard Finger skaplin@mirage.skypoint.com | outside a Roman brothel. ============================================================================== -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: 2.6.2 iQEVAwUBLwfRXMlnXxBRSgfNAQH0twf+Is7Gur7MlN1djLdLKQ5N1Qcf+9tM4hD8 II+4Z3lSFsCYV3K30Iochnqr+9am8C08LZYk0uUqhW/EEhCkHIlivBniIHXNgvZ/ XbTqiZyAwP7E+8CQNbNywoRqJ46WKRgQpvpDFgSDUmnUzQliRzoBzsU6cwJY+uYp YLzpNkm+knleEDgAa978GaZsTK57wjkZ6ald2/gRoXzF4Pd0FW/lBd+KcSIq9KZN hU/VJ3dh6NDqbXbu92RjCl+Ba+UL3Ljk/+k4Gc+aQOV5f6vghOYmsVy9pqjz8R7a IfORPuLFYRDemWGjBF6vmWfkrOACdl6HLx5RdQd5eDfWqXFpDzE8eQ== =Y8cO -----END PGP SIGNATURE-----
From: skaplin@skypoint.com (Samuel Kaplin) I was looking at at the bigger picture. Any merchant who accepts Visa or MC could now accept anonymous payments. No hassle at all on their part. [...] The key would be not to have the card attached to the account. If the card is attached to any type of account, then there are reporting requirements. Visa was talking about an electronic traveller's check, which, from what I could tell, instantiated an account in the sum of the value of the card purchased, which was then drawn down by purchase. The card, evidently, had no embossing on it. Personalization was limited to some account id which would last the lifetime of the balance and then disappear. Eric
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- In article <199501021344.FAA11566@largo.remailer.net>, you wrote:
From: skaplin@skypoint.com (Samuel Kaplin)
I was looking at at the bigger picture. Any merchant who accepts Visa or MC could now accept anonymous payments. No hassle at all on their part. [...] The key would be not to have the card attached to the account. If the card is attached to any type of account, then there are reporting requirements.
Visa was talking about an electronic traveller's check, which, from what I could tell, instantiated an account in the sum of the value of the card purchased, which was then drawn down by purchase. The card, evidently, had no embossing on it. Personalization was limited to some account id which would last the lifetime of the balance and then disappear.
This is EXACTLY what I was contemplating. I really wish they would implement it. Then I can get the traveler's cheques out of my wallet. (unsigned in both spots of, course.) - -- ============================================================================== skaplin@skypoint.com | Finger skaplin@infinity.c2.org for | a listing of crypto related files PGP encrypted mail is accepted and | available on my auto-responder. preferred. | (Yes...the faqs are there!) | E-mail key@four11.com for PGP Key or | "...vidi vici veni" - Overheard Finger skaplin@mirage.skypoint.com | outside a Roman brothel. ============================================================================== Be careful when playing under the anvil tree. -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: 2.6.2 iQEVAwUBLxCfB8lnXxBRSgfNAQH6yAf/RMSqUXOHouTE3qKqaU/naHO8fdr8cEKL EjAemhDQj5yVHeTz4YCT1p16CW8X+++fTXGsfZoCr7c+xxYoj/04OVC/u3UPvpJy kAtwhbZhIG7ndKk2weoxZLTnxl5TVlkYjZUrufSccUw0ZfA6h27WrZNV7jFV89dk c2xPr9oJ8dj/jwJtaNIR2KtTc9THWyxlGEIBzMn4mA1VeFz0I27uPK9RSs0M4eXb JCW/ns92Gzwslq0/3n7d4JctGXar+9cUTjowPYRXinKX7wsyoKj5nN7HrCo8D5ot W0KCfDzkn2YOGCj1CzkRkcW0wiGXI9kBXpCQVXJFlKZ6r7d5QnN0AA== =B73o -----END PGP SIGNATURE-----
On Sun, 8 Jan 1995, Samuel Kaplin wrote:
Date: Sun, 08 Jan 1995 20:20:18 -0600 From: Samuel Kaplin <skaplin@mirage.skypoint.com> To: Eric Hughes <eric@remailer.net>, cypherpunks@toad.com Subject: Re: Anonymous payment scheme
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In article <199501021344.FAA11566@largo.remailer.net>, you wrote:
From: skaplin@skypoint.com (Samuel Kaplin)
I was looking at at the bigger picture. Any merchant who accepts Visa or MC could now accept anonymous payments. No hassle at all on their part. [...] The key would be not to have the card attached to the account. If the card is attached to any type of account, then there are reporting requirements.
Visa was talking about an electronic traveller's check, which, from what I could tell, instantiated an account in the sum of the value of the card purchased, which was then drawn down by purchase. The card, evidently, had no embossing on it. Personalization was limited to some account id which would last the lifetime of the balance and then disappear.
This is EXACTLY what I was contemplating. I really wish they would implement it. Then I can get the traveler's cheques out of my wallet. (unsigned in both spots of, course.)
Is this not essentially the same as the current pre-paid long distance Phone cards on the market? One would think the transition as easy for the credit card companies to make with a secured, disposable visa card.
- -- ============================================================================== skaplin@skypoint.com | Finger skaplin@infinity.c2.org for | a listing of crypto related files PGP encrypted mail is accepted and | available on my auto-responder. preferred. | (Yes...the faqs are there!) | E-mail key@four11.com for PGP Key or | "...vidi vici veni" - Overheard Finger skaplin@mirage.skypoint.com | outside a Roman brothel. ============================================================================== Be careful when playing under the anvil tree.
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073BB885A786F666 nemo repente fuit turpissimus - potestas scientiae in usu est 6E6D4506F6EDBC17 quaere verum ad infinitum, loquitur sub rosa - wichtig!
Black Unicorn <unicorn@access.digex.net> wrote:
This is EXACTLY what I was contemplating. I really wish they would implement it. Then I can get the traveler's cheques out of my wallet. (unsigned in both spots of, course.)
Is this not essentially the same as the current pre-paid long distance Phone cards on the market?
One would think the transition as easy for the credit card companies to make with a secured, disposable visa card.
NZ Telecom are conducting an experiment with using phonecards in softdrink vending machines. There was an article in The Dominion newspaper's _InfoTech_ magazine crying out for the Government to stop it, claiming Telecom's creating an independant (from the Reserve Bank) currency, will destroy the New Zealand economy, etc., etc. --- Paul Foley <Paul.Foley@vuw.ac.nz> ----- PGP encrypted mail preferred PGP key available from keyservers or finger (finger pfoley@akeake.its.vuw.ac.nz)
From: Paul Foley <Paul.Foley@vuw.ac.nz> NZ Telecom are conducting an experiment with using phonecards in softdrink vending machines. There was an article in The Dominion newspaper's _InfoTech_ magazine crying out for the Government to stop it, claiming Telecom's creating an independant (from the Reserve Bank) currency, will destroy the New Zealand economy, etc., etc. Sounds like your basic central banking ignorance. Look folks, just so y'all don't look like idiots, remember this: A means of payment is not the same thing as a currency. Eric
participants (9)
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Black Unicorn -
Brian Lane -
eric＠remailer.net -
Jonathan Cooper -
jRT -
Mark Terka -
Paul Foley -
skaplin＠mirage.skypoint.com -
skaplin＠skypoint.com