an end to "courts" (was RE: An end to "court appointed attorneys" )
Tim May wrote:
It's time to stop this "court appointed attorney" nonsense. If we as a nation want to change our legal system to one where the court appoints both sides of a case, prosecution and defense, as in many other countries, fine. But it's absurd to finance the hiring of defense lawyers.
or courts, for that matter. presumably under cryptoanarchy you won't have courts - an imposition of authority on people presumed to accept it - but arbitrators, agreed upon by the two sides. unlike in the common-law, jury system, such arbitrators would perhaps be able to use their intelligence to figure things out by talking to the opposing sides directly, instead of requiring lawyers to pick fights in matters of a "law" so distant from the people it affects that they can't interpret it directly. however, with courts - and the common-law/jury system, which has _some_ benefits over, say, the French or Spanish inquisitorial system of law - you tend to require lawyers, and i suppose court-appointed attornees are a way of "making justice blind" as it ought to be. of course, perhaps lawyers should be avoided by not just the poor defence, but the rich prosecution - the hilariously entertaining McLibel case in Britain showed that gutsy, if somewhat misguided, lawyerless people could pull quite a bit over an expensive "dream team", which McDonalds had. -Rishab First Monday - The Peer-Reviewed Journal on the Internet http://www.firstmonday.dk/ Munksgaard International Publishers, Copenhagen Intl & Managing Editor - Rishab Aiyer Ghosh (ghosh@firstmonday.dk) Mobile +91 98110 14574; Fax +91 11 2209608; Tel +91 11 2454717 A4/204 Ekta Apts., 9 Indraprastha Extn, New Delhi 110092 INDIA
In most kinds of welfare, the state is pretending to "help" the recipient by protecting them against the real world, whether it's the difficulties of finding food, medical care, or whatever; it's a job that really belongs to private charity, though arguably government may provide more help by inefficiently spending large amounts of theft-funded money vs. efficiently spending smaller amounts of voluntary money and labor. Public defenders are a different case, however - the attacks the government is protecting the recipient against are attacks by the government itself, and the cost of hiring a lawyer to defend him against the government may be as severe a punishment as the offence in question. OJ may have been able to outspend the prosecution in an attempt to obtain justice or evade it, but you can't. Court-funded attorneys are obviously in a conflict of interest, even in non-political crimes, and the government isn't overly enthusiastic about funding them well, and they're usually not as good as the ACLU would be, but on the other hand they _will_ often provide some help for cases the ACLU doesn't bother with. How much they're there to really help, and how much their purpose is to let the government pretend it's being fair, is a toss-up. But the average citizen, who doesn't deal with the court end of government every day or every year, has a minimal chance of justice without competent legal assistance, or without spending more time than the average prosecution cycle learning how the courts work.
Prosecution: "The DNA results showed a match to an average of two out of the earth's 7 billion inhabitants. Mr. Simpson's DNA was one of them. " Defense: "So how come you ain't lookin' for da other guy?" Jurors: "Like Johnnie said, if it do not fit, you must acquit."
Well, Johnnie was right about that. The police had decided (probably correctly) that OJ was the most likely murderer, and had set out to convict him, doing it sloppily and in ways that tainted the evidence. Bad lab procedures, which were apparently a problem, made it possible to mix up samples (even if they weren't doing it deliberately), as well as to interpret the tests in the most pro-conviction way. And because the police were quite public about their accusations, they were under pressure to get the conviction, by any means necessary. One of the important principles of American justice, such as it is, is that people are supposed to be innocent unless they're really proven guilty, beyond reasonable doubt, and that it's better to fail to convict an occasional guilty person than to convict an innocent person - especially when the penalty may be death. The police botched their case terribly, and they deserved to lose. The jury did the right thing in not accepting it. On the other hand, the civil jury that stuck it to OJ financially also did the right thing; there _was_ a lot of evidence that he did it, to the level of proof required for a civil case.
OJ Simpson could have received a trial beginning 60 days after the murders, lasting for no more than 10 days, and with his execution to follow within 30 days after that. (Yes, I would allow one "appeal," with a higher court listening to any objections to how the lower court operated, etc., and possibly ordering a new trial, etc. It should not take more than a day or two.)
Especially for politically sensitive cases, but sometimes in simple ones, police often jump to conclusions, and hide or ignore evidence that would exonerate the accused, and courts usually buy there stories; in spite of that, we keep seeing people ################
The adversarial machine is made worse by the vast public subsidies of both sides, the endless delays, and the general "legalisms" used by both sides.
As a personal note, my father was an officer in the U.S. Navy, and served on several courts martial. No capital murder cases, that I recall him mentioning, but some might serious matters. As most of you must know, the system is much different than the main U.S. legal system. And my father believes the military system is vastly more just, and quicker, and cheaper. A 3-man panel hears the evidence presented, asks questions, listens to defense points, etc., and then adjourns to reach a verdict. All in a few days, of course.
No jury consultants making sure that no college graduates are on the jury, that enough blacks are seated, that facial expressions indicate likely sympathies to the defendant, etc.
The U.S. system is corrupt. Hordes of lawyers--too many, of course--swarm out into the "System," inflating legal bills, billing at $200 an hour for the Xerox copying time of junior lawyers, and even charging lavish lunches to the other side. (I could cite dozens of examples...)
Those of you who have taken McVeigh's "side" against Steven Jones should consider this whole situation. McVeigh, who quite clearly "did it," will now get a new lawyer--and his team!--to handle the appeal. More delays, more time billed at $300 an hour for the new top lawyer, and at $200 x 4 = $800 for his major assistants, and at some unknown rate for his clerks, secretaries, etc., all for what? So that an additional $500K or so is spent, with a delay now of an additional 4 to 6 months "for the new lawyers to familiarize themselves with the 200,000 pages of transcripts"...and so on.
To what end? McVeigh did it, and only an Alice in Wonderland legalistic society could even doubt it for a nanosecond.
(And in fact, we all accept this. Where's the real "outrage" that McVeigh is being prosecuted for a crime he didn't commit? We were outraged that Randy Weaver was entrapped on such a minor offense (shortening a rifle barrel by an inch or two), and that his wife and son were then shot in an ambush. We were outraged at Waco. We _are_ outraged at the treatment Abner Louima received in NYC. But we are not outraged at McVeigh's treatment. Because, as with OJ, anybody with three neurons to rub together knows he did it. And yet the multi-year legal charade continues.)
--Tim May
There's something wrong when I'm a felon under an increasing number of laws. Only one response to the key grabbers is warranted: "Death to Tyrants!" ---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---- Timothy C. May | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money, tcmay@got.net 408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA | knowledge, reputations, information markets, Higher Power: 2^1398269 | black markets, collapse of governments. "National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."
# Thanks; Bill # Bill Stewart, +1-415-442-2215 stewarts@ix.netcom.com # You can get PGP outside the US at ftp.ox.ac.uk/pub/crypto/pgp # (If this is a mailing list or news, please Cc: me on replies. Thanks.)
At 5:58 PM -0700 8/21/97, Rishab Aiyer Ghosh wrote:
unlike in the common-law, jury system, such arbitrators would perhaps be able to use their intelligence to figure things out by talking to the opposing sides directly, instead of requiring lawyers to pick fights in matters of a "law" so distant from the people it affects that they can't interpret it directly.
The modern American legal system, at least in the many recent capital murder cases which have received such wide publicity, is not about a "search for truth," obviously. Instead, it is an adversarial system (no surprise there) in which competing teams spend vast amounts of money trying to derail the other side, get jurors dismissed because of "jury consultant" models, etc. As the Simpson case showed, the logic went like this: Prosecution: "The DNA results showed a match to an average of two out of the earth's 7 billion inhabitants. Mr. Simpson's DNA was one of them. " Defense: "So how come you ain't lookin' for da other guy?" Jurors: "Like Johnnie said, if it do not fit, you must acquit." By the way, the McVeigh case was filled with the same nonsense, from both sides, and from the defense side especially. I know that if I had been unfairly accused of planting such a bomb, I'd be screaming at the top of my lungs and would have testified extensively in my own trial. Yeah, yeah, yeah, I can already hear some of you about to argue that a defendant's silence is not evidence of guilt. But this is precisely the kind of legalistic nonsense we are talking about! (I am not saying silence equals guilt, or that testimony can be compelled, but it only stands to reason that a jury should take into consideration that a defendant--Simpson or McVeigh--never testified, never gave his side of the story, never explained this theory of how things happened, etc.) Anyway, a machine has been set up to let these dueling adversarial teams consume vast amounts of court and public resources. OJ Simpson could have received a trial beginning 60 days after the murders, lasting for no more than 10 days, and with his execution to follow within 30 days after that. (Yes, I would allow one "appeal," with a higher court listening to any objections to how the lower court operated, etc., and possibly ordering a new trial, etc. It should not take more than a day or two.) The adversarial machine is made worse by the vast public subsidies of both sides, the endless delays, and the general "legalisms" used by both sides. As a personal note, my father was an officer in the U.S. Navy, and served on several courts martial. No capital murder cases, that I recall him mentioning, but some might serious matters. As most of you must know, the system is much different than the main U.S. legal system. And my father believes the military system is vastly more just, and quicker, and cheaper. A 3-man panel hears the evidence presented, asks questions, listens to defense points, etc., and then adjourns to reach a verdict. All in a few days, of course. No jury consultants making sure that no college graduates are on the jury, that enough blacks are seated, that facial expressions indicate likely sympathies to the defendant, etc. The U.S. system is corrupt. Hordes of lawyers--too many, of course--swarm out into the "System," inflating legal bills, billing at $200 an hour for the Xerox copying time of junior lawyers, and even charging lavish lunches to the other side. (I could cite dozens of examples...) Those of you who have taken McVeigh's "side" against Steven Jones should consider this whole situation. McVeigh, who quite clearly "did it," will now get a new lawyer--and his team!--to handle the appeal. More delays, more time billed at $300 an hour for the new top lawyer, and at $200 x 4 = $800 for his major assistants, and at some unknown rate for his clerks, secretaries, etc., all for what? So that an additional $500K or so is spent, with a delay now of an additional 4 to 6 months "for the new lawyers to familiarize themselves with the 200,000 pages of transcripts"...and so on. To what end? McVeigh did it, and only an Alice in Wonderland legalistic society could even doubt it for a nanosecond. (And in fact, we all accept this. Where's the real "outrage" that McVeigh is being prosecuted for a crime he didn't commit? We were outraged that Randy Weaver was entrapped on such a minor offense (shortening a rifle barrel by an inch or two), and that his wife and son were then shot in an ambush. We were outraged at Waco. We _are_ outraged at the treatment Abner Louima received in NYC. But we are not outraged at McVeigh's treatment. Because, as with OJ, anybody with three neurons to rub together knows he did it. And yet the multi-year legal charade continues.) --Tim May There's something wrong when I'm a felon under an increasing number of laws. Only one response to the key grabbers is warranted: "Death to Tyrants!" ---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---- Timothy C. May | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money, tcmay@got.net 408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA | knowledge, reputations, information markets, Higher Power: 2^1398269 | black markets, collapse of governments. "National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."
participants (3)
-
Bill Stewart -
Rishab Aiyer Ghosh -
Tim May