Re: Eternity Uncensorable?
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- [ To: cypherpunks@algebra.com, Wei Dai ## Date: 08/08/97 10:37 pm ## Subject: Re: Eternity Uncensorable? ]
Subject: Re: Eternity Uncensorable? To: Cypherpunks Lite <cp-lite@comsec.com> From: Wei Dai <weidai@eskimo.com> Date: Wed, 06 Aug 1997 11:33:55 -0700 (PDT)
I suggest using information dispersal to spread risk amongst remailer operators. Use Rabin's information dispersal technique to divide up a document into n shares such that k of them can reconstruct the original, and post each share via a seperate remailer. It would be hard for the government to single out an operator to go after since an individual share by itself is useless.
I'm a little concerned with the usefulness of this idea in a legal sense. Imagine the physical analogue: Alice buys the guns and masks, and leaves them in a pre-arranged place. Bob anonymously buys a car and leaves it, with the keys inside, in another pre-arranged place. Carol and Dave collect the guns, masks, and the car, and use them to rob a bank or hijack an airplane. Do you suppose the feds will have any problem prosecuting Alice and Bob for their part in the conspiracy?
If n>k this also increases reliability and resilience of the eternity service against technical attacks.
This part is somewhat more useful. However, n copies of the message are probably better. I think the general problem here is unsolveable--running an Eternity server is just going to be a dangerous thing to do if you live somewhere where the police are likely to see possessing, distributing, or selling some of the information on it as a crime. There are two possible solutions I can see: Either make Eternity servers so widespread that taking down individual servers in individual jurisdictions is futile, or find some jurisdictions where virtually *nothing* will provoke the police to act. (Note that legal jurisdiction isn't the only issue here. Some groups may be willing to use terrorist tactics to shut down these servers.) Note: Please respond via e-mail as well as or instead of posting, as I get CP-LITE instead of the whole list. --John Kelsey, kelsey@counterpane.com PGP 2.6 fingerprint = 4FE2 F421 100F BB0A 03D1 FE06 A435 7E36 -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: 2.6.2 iQCVAwUBM/ChJUHx57Ag8goBAQFTdwP/cX/+SsXEkjmSrTYcvSBP9bHsAzRcXs+z FmPIq1dd9T7Mm6tlJGe8iC4lXmpm4JVqhmZMTGoJlkw6ld1MWGiOevpDWhycpAPQ 6ohDd/R2G3dRHkWCvPklyeKQx3v8GfWAhPrupJZNNAUCIJqDMlg6kJQv4BDiEukr G7C89qeaXqA= =WXLf -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --John Kelsey, Counterpane Systems, kelsey@counterpane.com PGP 2.6 fingerprint = 4FE2 F421 100F BB0A 03D1 FE06 A435 7E36
On Tue, 12 Aug 1997, John Kelsey wrote:
If n>k this also increases reliability and resilience of the eternity service against technical attacks.
This part is somewhat more useful. However, n copies of the message are probably better.
The nice thing about information dispersal is that each share is only 1/k the size of the original.
I think the general problem here is unsolveable--running an Eternity server is just going to be a dangerous thing to do if you live somewhere where the police are likely to see possessing, distributing, or selling some of the information on it as a crime. There are two possible solutions I can see: Either make Eternity servers so widespread that taking down individual servers in individual jurisdictions is futile, or find some jurisdictions where virtually *nothing* will provoke the police to act. (Note that legal jurisdiction isn't the only issue here. Some groups may be willing to use terrorist tactics to shut down these servers.)
The point of using information dispersal is not to defend the Eternity servers, but rather the exit remailers. Adam's Eternity servers do not need to be defended because they only act as a gateway between USENET and the web. Clients can run Eternity servers on their local machine and directly access their local USENET spool.
On Tue, Aug 12, 1997 at 12:46:02PM -0600, John Kelsey wrote:
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
[ To: cypherpunks@algebra.com, Wei Dai ## Date: 08/08/97 10:37 pm ## Subject: Re: Eternity Uncensorable? ]
Subject: Re: Eternity Uncensorable? To: Cypherpunks Lite <cp-lite@comsec.com> From: Wei Dai <weidai@eskimo.com> Date: Wed, 06 Aug 1997 11:33:55 -0700 (PDT)
I suggest using information dispersal to spread risk amongst remailer operators. Use Rabin's information dispersal technique to divide up a document into n shares such that k of them can reconstruct the original, and post each share via a seperate remailer. It would be hard for the government to single out an operator to go after since an individual share by itself is useless.
I'm a little concerned with the usefulness of this idea in a legal sense. Imagine the physical analogue: Alice buys the guns and masks, and leaves them in a pre-arranged place. Bob anonymously buys a car and leaves it, with the keys inside, in another pre-arranged place. Carol and Dave collect the guns, masks, and the car, and use them to rob a bank or hijack an airplane. Do you suppose the feds will have any problem prosecuting Alice and Bob for their part in the conspiracy?
Yes, I think there might be problems for the feds in this case. Your analogy is not at all accurate, since the remailers have no knowledge of what their individual shares contain, and didn't supply any of the input data to begin with. Here's a different analogy: Alice and Bob and Carol and Dave run mailbox outlets. Elmer and Fred jointly rent several mailboxes. Elmer mails a single piece of a gun to each mailbox in a sealed package -- ABCD can have no way of knowing what is in each package. Fred goes to each mailbox and gets the package inside, takes them all home, and assemble a weapon used to commit a crime. It is hard to see how ABCD could be included in any conspiracy, because they were providing a general, legal service, and they had absolutely no knowledge of the conspiracy. -- Kent Crispin "No reason to get excited", kent@songbird.com the thief he kindly spoke... PGP fingerprint: B1 8B 72 ED 55 21 5E 44 61 F4 58 0F 72 10 65 55 http://songbird.com/kent/pgp_key.html
On 12-Aug-97 Kent Crispin wrote:
On Tue, Aug 12, 1997 at 12:46:02PM -0600, John Kelsey wrote: -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
[ To: cypherpunks@algebra.com, Wei Dai ## Date: 08/08/97 10:37 pm ## Subject: Re: Eternity Uncensorable? ]
Subject: Re: Eternity Uncensorable? To: Cypherpunks Lite <cp-lite@comsec.com> From: Wei Dai <weidai@eskimo.com> Date: Wed, 06 Aug 1997 11:33:55 -0700 (PDT)
I suggest using information dispersal to spread risk amongst remailer operators. Use Rabin's information dispersal technique to divide up a document into n shares such that k of them can reconstruct the original, and post each share via a seperate remailer. It would be hard for the government to single out an operator to go after since an individual share by itself is useless.
I'm a little concerned with the usefulness of this idea in a legal sense. Imagine the physical analogue: Alice buys the guns and masks, and leaves them in a pre-arranged place. Bob anonymously buys a car and leaves it, with the keys inside, in another pre-arranged place. Carol and Dave collect the guns, masks, and the car, and use them to rob a bank or hijack an airplane. Do you suppose the feds will have any problem prosecuting Alice and Bob for their part in the conspiracy?
Yes, I think there might be problems for the feds in this case. Your analogy is not at all accurate, since the remailers have no knowledge of what their individual shares contain, and didn't supply any of the input data to begin with. Here's a different analogy:
Alice and Bob and Carol and Dave run mailbox outlets. Elmer and Fred jointly rent several mailboxes. Elmer mails a single piece of a gun to each mailbox in a sealed package -- ABCD can have no way of knowing what is in each package. Fred goes to each mailbox and gets the package inside, takes them all home, and assemble a weapon used to commit a crime. It is hard to see how ABCD could be included in any conspiracy, because they were providing a general, legal service, and they had absolutely no knowledge of the conspiracy.
-- Kent Crispin "No reason to get excited", kent@songbird.com the thief he kindly spoke... PGP fingerprint: B1 8B 72 ED 55 21 5E 44 61 F4 58 0F 72 10 65 55 http://songbird.com/kent/pgp_key.html
---------------------------------- E-Mail: David D. W. Downey <admin@cyberspacetechnologies.com> Date: 08/13/97 Time: 04:45:33 This message was sent by XF-Mail ----------------------------------
The Feds will undoubtably attempt to procecute, but the way the federal law re ads, ABCD Company must have some sort of knowledge in their possesion that conspirato rs C and D were actually planning something criminal. Without that knowledge, the governmen t can not prove the technicals needed for a conviction. Scenario: Say the conspirators committed a murder. Malice Afore-thought is crucial to a premeditated murder conviction. The conspirators could be convicted of premeditated murder because they showed m alice aforethought when they purchased and used the weapons involved in the killing. Now, ABCD Company can not be charged with premeditated murder as they did not take part in the actual killing. That leaves aiding and abetting, and co-conspiring to com mit a felony (aka the premeditiated murder.) ABCD Company would lose if they had culpa ble knowledge 1) what the contents of the packages were, and 2) what the conspirators were pl anning. But the Feds would be unable to show malice aforethought on the part of ABCD Company, thereby blowing the co-conspirator charge out the window. In addition, culpable knowledge would not be proven because they did not know the contents of the pack ages, thereby blowing the aiding and abetting charges out the window. The Feds' case w ould hinge upon the requirement that ABCD Company know the contents of anything moving thro ugh their buisiness. Since their business is legally based upon anonymous mailing abiliti es, they can basically tell the government to go blow up a battleship for all the chances the Feds have of winning.>
Yes, I think there might be problems for the feds in this case. Your analogy is not at all accurate, since the remailers have no knowledge of what their individual shares contain, and didn't supply any of the input data to begin with. Here's a different analogy:
Alice and Bob and Carol and Dave run mailbox outlets. Elmer and Fred jointly rent several mailboxes. Elmer mails a single piece of a gun to each mailbox in a sealed package -- ABCD can have no way of knowing what is in each package. Fred goes to each mailbox and gets the package inside, takes them all home, and assemble a weapon used to commit a crime. It is hard to see how ABCD could be included in any conspiracy, because they were providing a general, legal service, and they had absolutely no knowledge of the conspiracy.
-- Kent Crispin "No reason to get excited", kent@songbird.com the thief he kindly spoke... PGP fingerprint: B1 8B 72 ED 55 21 5E 44 61 F4 58 0F 72 10 65 55 http://songbird.com/kent/pgp_key.html
---------------------------------- E-Mail: David D. W. Downey <admin@cyberspacetechnologies.com> Date: 08/13/97 Time: 04:51:15 This message was sent by XF-Mail ----------------------------------
participants (4)
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David D. W. Downey -
John Kelsey -
Kent Crispin -
Wei Dai