jonathon wrote: | On Mon, 23 Dec 1996, Steve Schear wrote: | | > If you want hassle-free shopping use legal tender (except for rentals> | | Not always true. | | Go shopping with a wad of $100.00 bills. Most stores don't | accept them, regardless of the amount of purchase, without | additional ID. Did they require statist ID? (Speaking of which, is a state university student ID considered 'government issued?' How about a faculty or staff ID card?) Adam "Never had a problem paying with hundreds either. Maybe its my 'You will need to get your manager' attitude." -- "It is seldom that liberty of any kind is lost all at once." -Hume

In article <199612241223.HAA14556@homeport.org>, Adam Shostack <adam@homeport.org> wrote:

(Speaking of which, is a state university student ID considered 'government issued?' How about a faculty or staff ID card?)

Well, when I fly they ask for 'government issued' picture ID, and I present my UC Berkeley student ID for inspection. They usually grumble at me, but I grumble back, and in the end they've always accepted it. Try it sometime. (And yes, my student ID is probably eminently forgable -- it looks very ragged and unprofessional.) P.S. At JFK I had a guy tell me that they preferred to see my social security card! I was completely surprised, since it has no picture, and (I think) says 'this card not to be used for identification purposes' at the bottom. Anyone know anything about this?

On Sun, 29 Dec 1996, Robert Hettinga wrote:

"I've found that they issue a national ID card, it's time to leave..."

So which countries don't issue a national ID card? I'm assuming that list will be far shorter than those that do issue a national ID card. xan jonathon grafolog@netcom.com *********************************************************** Note: a bad procmail recipe deleted all e-mail sent to me, except for spam, between 14.36 H 12-26-96 Zulu and 4.09 H 12-28-96 Zulu. So it you sent me e-mail, and didn't get an expected reply, that's why. Please resend your e-mail. The recipe has been fixed.

At 2:12 PM -0800 12/29/96, David Wagner wrote:

In article <199612241223.HAA14556@homeport.org>, Adam Shostack <adam@homeport.org> wrote:

...

(Speaking of which, is a state university student ID considered 'government issued?' How about a faculty or staff ID card?)

Well, when I fly they ask for 'government issued' picture ID, and I present my UC Berkeley student ID for inspection. They usually grumble at me, but I grumble back, and in the end they've always accepted it. Try it sometime. (And yes, my student ID is probably eminently forgable -- it looks very ragged and unprofessional.)

P.S. At JFK I had a guy tell me that they preferred to see my social security card! I was completely surprised, since it has no picture, and (I think) says 'this card not to be used for identification purposes' at the bottom. Anyone know anything about this?

My SS card, issued in 1969 (and which I still have, surprisingly enough), says this. Someone said recently here on the list that this line was dropped in more recent years. I've never once, in 29 years, been asked to show my little ragged card, and I only have it because I kept it stored with my passport. (No employer ever asked to see it; I haven't been employed for more than 10 years, so I can't say anything about recent policies in the wake of the "immigration crisis.") The current hysteria about "identification" probably does nothing to stop real terrorists...if there's one thing they can easily afford, it's realistic-looking ID cards, in any flavor and in any number. What I think this means is a move toward a national ID card, replacing the confusing (to airlines, to government agents, etc.) mishmash of state driver's licenses, student ID cards, etc. After all, if someone doesn't drive, and has no passport, just what _is_ there "government issued" picture ID supposed to be, if not a national ID card? Or, as we like to say, an "internal passport." Or as the Christian Right likes to say, "the mark of the Beast." Big Brother's SS number: 666-42-0000. --Tim May Just say "No" to "Big Brother Inside" We got computers, we're tapping phone lines, I know that that ain't allowed. ---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---- Timothy C. May | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money, tcmay@got.net 408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA | knowledge, reputations, information markets, Higher Power: 2^1398269 | black markets, collapse of governments. "National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."

At 4:48 PM -0800 12/29/96, sameer wrote:

...

I've never once, in 29 years, been asked to show my little ragged card, and I only have it because I kept it stored with my passport. (No employer ever asked to see it; I haven't been employed for more than 10 years, so I can't say anything about recent policies in the wake of the "immigration crisis.")

These days you can show a passport in leui of a social security card. (I showed my"current employer" my SS card because I kept forgetting to bring my poassport in to work. What an odd concept, proving to my employer that I had a right to wrk in the US... apparently the law is that you have a $10k fine if you *dont have the paperwork* -- it doen't matter if all your employees are legal.)

Indeed, the similarities with the "structuring" example (of financial deposits, even one's own money!!!) are frightening. If prosecutors wanted to "make an example" of someone, they could. (This is part of a much larger issue: the vast array of laws, which nearly all of us violate in various ways on various days. When there are so many laws that one is almost inevitably a felon is, to me, the very definition of a "terror state.") Brian Davis, our former federal prosecutor, seems a reasonable enough fellow, and I'm fairly certain that he would not have sought an indictment for a "small fry" who failed to ask for the proper SS card, but it's sobering to think that a business could be shut down or massively fined for such a thing. (I was advised in a local newsgroup that asking Hispanic-looking job applicants more questions about their U.S. status than one asks of Aryan-looking job applicants is ipso facto a serious, serious crime. So, what does the white applicant who has no "proof" of his U.S. residency--no passport, no birth certificate, no official card, just his "whiteness" and his flawless English--do when confronted with such a question? Just supplying an SS number is apparently not enough. By the way, a question for Brian (if he happens to see this): Suppose I take $27,000 I've had stuffed under my mattress...already taxed, blah blah blah. In other words, no chance of it being "illicit" or "unreported." That is, a situation like our gambler friend (he reported the income), except even more clearly a case where the money is outright owned (by traditional Western notions of ownership, i.e., cash sitting in a safe deposit box, or under a mattress, etc. So, I go to three banks and deposit $9,000 in each, for whatever reasons. Do I face forfeiture of my money? If so, I'll joing Jim Bell in his advocacy of solving this problem in a more drastic way. (Question: How many "small fry" have faced this kind of forfeiture for committing the "crime" of making two or more deposits, thus appearing to fit the "structuring profile"?) On the forfeiture issue, I'm more and more convinced "deal making" is a basic evil in our judicial system. While the argument is valid that it reduces courtroom crowding (and maybe prison crowding), it also makes things too easy for the government side to file serious charges and then "bargain" for a compromise. "Civil forfeiture" is a Damoclean sword hanging over the heads of citizens. --Tim May Just say "No" to "Big Brother Inside" We got computers, we're tapping phone lines, I know that that ain't allowed. ---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---- Timothy C. May | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money, tcmay@got.net 408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA | knowledge, reputations, information markets, Higher Power: 2^1398269 | black markets, collapse of governments. "National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."

At 11:02 AM -0800 12/31/96, Timothy C. May wrote:

There have been several reports cited here recently about changes in the SS laws to make the SS number more of an ID number. ...

And concerns about "identity theft" when such a simple thing as an SS number is the key to so many records, rights, etc.

I don't see how you can have the SS number be both a public ID number and a secret password. Perhaps you could have it be one, but not both. It seems to me that parts of our society are trying have it be a password and parts a public ID number. (Perhaps the same parts?) Doing both just won't work. (Using SS as a password is subject to all the stealing and replay attacks that make passwords a really bad idea for secure identification.) ------------------------------------------------------------------------- Bill Frantz | Client in California, POP3 | Periwinkle -- Consulting (408)356-8506 | in Pittsburgh, Packets in | 16345 Englewood Ave. frantz@netcom.com | Pakistan. - me | Los Gatos, CA 95032, USA

At 12:59 PM -0600 12/31/96, snow wrote:

Mr. May wrote:

...

My SS card, issued in 1969 (and which I still have, surprisingly enough), says this. Someone said recently here on the list that this line was dropped in more recent years.

I had to have mine replaced recently, and that line is no longer _anywhere_ on the card.

Did they change the laws regarding the use of your SSN as ID, or are most people just ignoring it?

At the bottom of my SS card are these exact words: "FOR SOCIAL SECURITY AND TAX PURPOSES--NOT FOR IDENTIFICATION" When I had to renew my California Driver's License, I was asked for my SS number...a new requirement. I pointed out that the SS number is not for identification. The clerk gave me a blank look and said I would not get a driver's license without an SS number. I gave in, preferring to fight other battles. (And I would surely lose this battle, probably even if I spend tons of money on mounting a legal challenge.) There have been several reports cited here recently about changes in the SS laws to make the SS number more of an ID number. (It already is, of course, for taxes, for employers, for credit, for driver's licenses, for student ID, etc.) And concerns about "identity theft" when such a simple thing as an SS number is the key to so many records, rights, etc. --Tim May Just say "No" to "Big Brother Inside" We got computers, we're tapping phone lines, I know that that ain't allowed. ---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---- Timothy C. May | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money, tcmay@got.net 408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA | knowledge, reputations, information markets, Higher Power: 2^1398269 | black markets, collapse of governments. "National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."

On 31 Dec 96, snow rambled thusly about Re: Internal Passports...

In Illinois, you merely have to request they not put it on the card,

I don't remember having that option, but I was barely sixteen at the time.

supposedly in Missouri you don't have to have in put on the card if you have a "religious objection", but I'd bet if you bitch loud enough at the DMV office, you can get out of it.

Not even that bad. When I went in there (just a few months ago) the clerk asked nicely if I wouldn't mind having my SSN used as my ID/ Drivers Licence number. (I wisely chose to say, "why yes, I would mind." and was assigned a pseudorandom number.) dave

Timothy C. May wrote: [...]

And concerns about "identity theft" when such a simple thing as an SS number is the key to so many records, rights, etc.

All you have to do is take a stroll down any street the last week of December, reading SSNs off the labels on the tax forms in everyone's mailbox. -rich

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- On Sun, 29 Dec 1996, Dale Thorn wrote:

David Wagner wrote: [...] Several (or most) states threaten their drivers in the license literature that if they're caught driving without possession of the license (even though the person so caught has a valid license somewhere), they can be jailed as a criminal. If there are any cases where this has been tested, I'd like to hear about them.

I've heard about such cases, and in fact North Carolina (where I am) "requires" all drivers to have their card on their person while driving. A friend of mine was pulled without his, and they gave him 30 days to produce it, and finally agreed just to look it up on the computer when he produced 2 other valid forms of ID. But then again, in North Carolina the family Bible is a valid form of ID (as well as a completed work _application_, and other odities). --Deviant PGP KeyID = E820F015 Fingerprint = 3D6AAB628E3DFAA9 F7D35736ABC56D39 They seem to have learned the habit of cowering before authority even when not actually threatened. How very nice for authority. I decided not to learn this particular lesson. -- Richard Stallman -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: 2.6.2 iQEVAwUBMsdSYDCdEh3oIPAVAQEP+Af7BHDT43r700Q1lb2Ioc2RjfS9+eDIxtLn f+bhWqsk3YpIpCVenYHr23PzSvnHBIztHpNMM0HEsFRZOHzQjuQ9QSEOzBgehmon P4wJURbQIH4lIpcH4VQUFfHuU/yT5ZPaSGrNvXYnEIyZFRyvu5XnZyynKes344/v TmQ7Wj5KIiYtmp7AJ+QIEJuCeGVJaSNbjj2ibmMyHf3tyhk7nQjtiWmGSYx0Dq8H 6hKrRLI4QzqKnsAYwrWFO9MZBXQGgLm5CGZAVgexr73AtfcTJyBLio+kaFQBws7e VkPtZzCo3o+jGbu5XLt4TJoLgr5BMIL6cxDGmbCko9ALzzYfMixJJA== =/IRS -----END PGP SIGNATURE-----