-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- A southern Washington newspaper, The Columbian (apparently published in Vancouver) provides a "greeked" (e.g., squiggles instead of text) version of its front page at http://www.columbian.com (you'll have to pick the frame for "The latest Columbian headlines") - and today's page one above-the-fold headline is "Affidavit: Internet essay solicits murder". It looks to me like this is real. Yow. Jim Bell is a goddamn loon, but I haven't seen him write anything that I thought was criminal. -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: 4.5 iQCVAgUBM0QP37Fh6pHCoCA5AQGqFAP/XajMlyEjtiDeYHYjHeL3B03TqCaCh6t4 kbCuPzoV2zsMIfSpoVcctHiorqYnMt2oemfHwfUT9cubnVwZYMzHZzsaqQjd+OqN 2z/Hnlo4vBFb73+lYWYPTqWydI0qAGZlDS9zbBwUNqP1eQL4rgEJxq6RzdfRcsqU 5MEWLzlfxZ4= =rzdS -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- -- Greg Broiles | US crypto export control policy in a nutshell: gbroiles@netbox.com | http://www.io.com/~gbroiles | Export jobs, not crypto.
On Thu, 3 Apr 1997, Greg Broiles wrote: -> A southern Washington newspaper, The Columbian (apparently published in -> Vancouver) provides a "greeked" (e.g., squiggles instead of text) version of -> its front page at http://www.columbian.com (you'll have to pick the frame for -> "The latest Columbian headlines") - and today's page one above-the-fold -> headline is "Affidavit: Internet essay solicits murder". -> -> It looks to me like this is real. Yow. Jim Bell is a goddamn loon, but I -> haven't seen him write anything that I thought was criminal. I read the essay when it was published (a year or two ago?). As I remember it, it simply extrapolated the consequences of encryption and anonymity to their logical conclusions. Specifically, that social control could be exerted through a "lottery" for "predicting" the dates of death for certain unpopular politicians. He stressed the untraceability, unaccountability, and as far as possible, legality of everything proposed in his essay. There was some debate concerning the essay which I did not follow. So, I don't know what concensus was finally reached. But, his proposal seemed generally workable to me. I would definately not consider the essay to be evidence of him being a "goddamn loon" anymore than Greg Broiles' post being evidence of him being a goddamn idiot. However, the majority of the public who form their oppinions through newpaper headlines and the like certainly are. Jim Bell's essay is, IMO, definately free speech. And, as you can see from the IRS Inspection report, he was not charged with anything relating to the essay itself. In fact, the raid happened a long time after he published the essay, and may truely be unrelated. ............................................................................ . Sergey Goldgaber <sergey@el.net> System Administrator el Net . ............................................................................ . To him who does not know the world is on fire, I have nothing to say . . - Bertholt Brecht . ............................................................................
In message <Pine.LNX.3.95.970403153051.3400K-100000@void.el.net>, Sergey Goldga ber writes: : :Jim Bell's essay is, IMO, definately free speech. And, as you can see from :the IRS Inspection report, he was not charged with anything relating to the :essay itself. In fact, the raid happened a long time after he published :the essay, and may truely be unrelated. : Of course, the papers only talk about this. Anytime they get to use two cool buzzwords like "Interet" and "Militia", they're happy. They're even happier when they get to use them in the same sentince. It'll sell. --Chris ------------ Christopher Blizzard AppliedTheory Communications, Inc. blizzard@appliedtheory.com ------------
Christopher Blizzard wrote:
In message <Pine.LNX.3.95.970403153051.3400K-100000@void.el.net>, Sergey Goldga ber writes: :Jim Bell's essay is, IMO, definately free speech. And, as you can see from :the IRS Inspection report, he was not charged with anything relating to the :essay itself. In fact, the raid happened a long time after he published :the essay, and may truely be unrelated.
Of course, the papers only talk about this.
Buy a clue, dudes. The application for a search warrant made it more than plain that the main basis for the search and seizure fishing expedition mounted by the Feds was based largely on his promotion of AP. Only a few, sparse lines of the application are related to valid IRS concerns re: taxes, etc. -- Toto "The Xenix Chainsaw Massacre" http://bureau42.base.org/public/xenix/xenbody.html
On Tue, 8 Apr 1997, Toto wrote: -> Christopher Blizzard wrote: -> > In message <Pine.LNX.3.95.970403153051.3400K-100000@void.el.net>, Sergey Goldga -> > ber writes: -> > :Jim Bell's essay is, IMO, definately free speech. And, as you can see from -> > :the IRS Inspection report, he was not charged with anything relating to the -> > :essay itself. In fact, the raid happened a long time after he published -> > :the essay, and may truely be unrelated. -> -> > Of course, the papers only talk about this. -> -> Buy a clue, dudes. I wouldn't bother with my nitpicky distinction below if it weren't for this patronizing comment. -> The application for a search warrant made it more than plain that -> the main basis for the search and seizure fishing expedition mounted -> by the Feds was based largely on his promotion of AP. -> Only a few, sparse lines of the application are related to valid -> IRS concerns re: taxes, etc. The search warrant was not made public on the cpunks list. As you can see form the above excerpt, I was commenting on the "IRS Inspection" report, which was virtually the first description of Jim Bell's arrest, long before there were even requests for information on the procedures for obtaining the search warrants, etc... After following the debate, I would definately agree that AP played an important part in sparking the paranoia of the govt. officials to arrest Jim, which in turn sparked off paranoia on the list, and rather reactionary comments towards AP, and reactionary flames towards the reactionaries. :) Hopefully this trend won't continue. ............................................................................ . Sergey Goldgaber <sergey@el.net> System Administrator el Net . ............................................................................ . To him who does not know the world is on fire, I have nothing to say . . - Bertholt Brecht . ............................................................................
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- At 04:56 AM 4/9/97 -0400, Sergey Goldgaber wrote:
The search warrant was not made public on the cpunks list. As you can see form the above excerpt, I was commenting on the "IRS Inspection" report, which was virtually the first description of Jim Bell's arrest, long before there were even requests for information on the procedures for obtaining the search warrants, etc...
I realize that we're talking about net-time, but "long before" seems like a poor way to describe the 2-2.5 days between the appearance of the "IRS Inspection" report (which was, in fact, the transcription of newspaper story) and the WWW publication of the warrant & accompanying material. Also, Declan was posting details from the warrant within 24 hours of the initial message.
After following the debate, I would definately agree that AP played an important part in sparking the paranoia of the govt. officials to arrest Jim, which in turn sparked off paranoia on the list, and rather reactionary comments towards AP, and reactionary flames towards the reactionaries. :) Hopefully this trend won't continue.
As far as I can tell, the events of last week haven't changed people's opinions of AP at all - people who thought it was interesting/useful still do, and people who thought it was uninteresting/stupid still do. I can't speak for other posters to the list, but I'm inclined to distance myself from AP not because I'm scared of a government raid, but because I think it's theoretically uninteresting/unremarkable, politically/tactically poorly considered, morally indefensible, and irresponsibly misleading to the extent it purports to discuss US law. I don't want my comments about Jim Bell's right to discuss his silly ideas to be confused with apologies or approval for the ideas themselves. I believe Jim has every right to write essays about AP, give speeches & seminars about AP, talk about "wonderful things" all that he likes, etc. But the "marketplace of ideas" model, whereby good speech is expected to negate bad speech, depends on the willingness of other people to provide "good speech", or at least call "bad speech" into question. I think AP is "bad speech" in the same way the "the earth is flat" is bad speech; it is (and ought to be) legal to say it, but it's also a non-useful idea, which I hope will be abandoned in favor of more useful ideas. I've been ignoring (pre-raid) discussions about AP because I think that an eternal recycling of arguments is uninteresting and unproductive. I think that the search of Jim's house, and its relationship to his free speech activities, is interesting - not because of the [lack of] quality of his ideas, but because I think this may be a case where law enforcement used its power to search & seize property in a punitive fashion. And that concerns me, because I think that isn't uncommon where the target is a "dissident", of one flavor or another; and I think that dissidents don't/shouldn't lose their civil rights as a consequence of their status. ("when they came for .." argument incorporated herein by reference.) (The search is also interesting for reasons unrelated to Jim and his ideas, because it provides insight into the level and type and timing of law enforcement access to the net, treatment of a "confidential informant", and protocol/procedure for search & seizure of computers and potentially encrypted data, etc.) But that doesn't mean that the dissidents get special respect or treatment for poor thinking. I think AP is poorly reasoned and poorly researched. (And I think that "dissident" + "poor analysis/research" + "obsessive focus" = "loon", hence my original comments.) -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: 4.5 iQEVAgUBM0twXP37pMWUJFlhAQFOgAf8DMhc37rtTZYbZ1pqLTD9r18GsKE56f5T egrme9gOvQ4uAES1E4LJ2EEbeN7KTZoOWZUHIBA7PitlRn5uXC/TAS3KNcJo5RJH uH07kH3g0LpeLlArxjTJ+QWt9WTxZ5ri3dNmG1mfuTGZPELZTTeYpLNJQuiO5xhl 0ua68YsHgj0L+e1FPZ0QPwzFDlHuUFuewn1K+hldpbK0GXSDOV9LwtAezzUR0oZw l5TI7LanD1amR0ii71eMzJx9XtWdjLT4OBMmMNjT4z+BJprW+Qnqm3C9Cq7py4r3 TzhBnRxkOZ58tzeKGn1SDTT/sIVQ5e6P/9QldM1uCR4K+pCXQDOi7A== =sN8V -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- -- Greg Broiles | US crypto export control policy in a nutshell: gbroiles@netbox.com | http://www.io.com/~gbroiles | Export jobs, not crypto. |
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- On Wed, 9 Apr 1997, Greg Broiles wrote: - -> At 04:56 AM 4/9/97 -0400, Sergey Goldgaber wrote: - -> >The search warrant was not made public on the cpunks list. As you can see - -> >form the above excerpt, I was commenting on the "IRS Inspection" report, - -> which - -> >was virtually the first description of Jim Bell's arrest, long before there - -> >were even requests for information on the procedures for obtaining the - -> >search warrants, etc... - -> - -> I realize that we're talking about net-time, but "long before" seems like a - -> poor way to describe the 2-2.5 days between the appearance of the "IRS - -> Inspection" report (which was, in fact, the transcription of newspaper story) Time flies fast on the Internet; or haven't you noticed? Three days of rather heated discussion took place between the time the arrest was announced and your message saying that you had the warrants, etc. - -> and the WWW publication of the warrant & accompanying material. I saw no mention anywhere on the list of those documents being available, only that you were considering making them available. By the way, at the time I wrote my quoted response, you yourself had as little "clue" as most anyone else: -> Date: Thu, 03 Apr 1997 12:16:19 -0800 -> From: Greg Broiles <gbroiles@netbox.com> -> To: cypherpunks@toad.com -> Subject: Jim Bell raid -> -> A southern Washington newspaper, The Columbian (apparently published in -> Vancouver) provides a "greeked" (e.g., squiggles instead of text) version of -> its front page at http://www.columbian.com (you'll have to pick the frame for -> "The latest Columbian headlines") - and today's page one above-the-fold -> headline is "Affidavit: Internet essay solicits murder". -> -> It looks to me like this is real. Yow. Jim Bell is a goddamn loon, but I -> haven't seen him write anything that I thought was criminal. My message followed three hours later. I see it was directed against your hasty "loon" conclusion. This explains the tone of your later message, along with your determination. It seems like you're taking this a little personally. - -> Also, Declan - -> was posting details from the warrant within 24 hours of the initial message. All he said was that he had them. No details. And all this is so nitpicky that I can't believe I even bothered originally replying to you, merely because of the patronizing tone of your message. I must have been having a bad day. Today is worse, though, witness the present message. The rest of your post is at least intelligently worded, however, so I'm glad I persevered through it. - -> As far as I can tell, the events of last week haven't changed people's - -> opinions of AP at all - people who thought it was interesting/useful still - -> do, and people who thought it was uninteresting/stupid still do. I can't - -> speak for other posters to the list, but I'm inclined to distance myself from - -> AP not because I'm scared of a government raid, Perhaps you should be! Where's that healthy cypherpunk paranoia? :) - -> but because I think it's theoretically uninteresting/unremarkable, I think its rather interesting, at least as far as discussions of possible consequences of cryptography are concerned. And theory that brings together technology and ethics is all the most interesting. - -> politically/tactically poorly considered His original posting was ill considered, I agree. He did consider it much more in the following years, you must concede. Bell did not, afterall, propose that we fight a land war in China. This scheme relies mostly on encryption and anonymity, which takes care of the tactical part. His political agenda is at least self consistant. - -> morally indefensible, and What a cro-magnon sentiment, and coming from such a bright lad. :) (Sorry, my turn to be patronizing :) Morality is logically indefensible. If it weren't for your earlier disclaimer, saying that you're speaking only for yourself, I'd go off on a philosophy/ethics rant. - -> irresponsibly misleading to the extent it purports to discuss US law. I've got to hand it to you there. No where does he claim to be a lawyer. However, he does give the impression of knowing the law. - -> I don't want my comments about Jim Bell's right to discuss his silly - -> ideas to be confused with apologies or approval for the ideas themselves. Duly noted. - -> I believe Jim has every right to write essays about AP, give speeches & - -> seminars about AP, talk about "wonderful things" all that he likes, etc. Agreed. - -> But - -> the "marketplace of ideas" model, whereby good speech is expected to negate - -> bad speech, depends on the willingness of other people to provide "good - -> speech", or at least call "bad speech" into question. I think AP is "bad - -> speech" in the same way the "the earth is flat" is bad speech; it is (and - -> ought to be) legal to say it, but it's also a non-useful idea, which I hope - -> will be abandoned in favor of more useful ideas. Ah, an advocate of the survival of the fittest idea, and a utilitarian to boot. Well, may your memes flourish. However, to be consistent, you must admit that the fittest and more "useful" ideas may have nothing to do with your defenses of particular politics, morals, or laws. In fact, they have as much, or more, to with the environment that they are in as their content. Thus, there is no "bad speech" or "good speech". Certain ideas simply "win" in certain circumstances. Had the circumstances been slightly different, different ideas would have "won". - -> I've been ignoring (pre-raid) discussions about AP because I think that an - -> eternal recycling of arguments is uninteresting and unproductive. I'm following you. - -> I think - -> that the search of Jim's house, and its relationship to his free speech - -> activities, is interesting - not because of the [lack of] quality of his - -> ideas, but because I think this may be a case where law enforcement used its - -> power to search & seize property in a punitive fashion. And that concerns me, - -> because I think that isn't uncommon where the target is a "dissident", of one - -> flavor or another; and I think that dissidents don't/shouldn't lose their - -> civil rights as a consequence of their status. ("when they came for .." - -> argument incorporated herein by reference.) I definately and wholeheartedly agree with your sentiments here. - -> (The search is also interesting for reasons unrelated to Jim and his ideas, - -> because it provides insight into the level and type and timing of law - -> enforcement access to the net, treatment of a "confidential informant", and - -> protocol/procedure for search & seizure of computers and potentially - -> encrypted data, etc.) Si. - -> But that doesn't mean that the dissidents get special respect or treatment - -> for poor thinking. I think AP is poorly reasoned and poorly researched. (And - -> I think that "dissident" + "poor analysis/research" + "obsessive focus" = - -> "loon", hence my original comments.) I disagree with your acusation concerning "poor analysis/research". Thus I can not agree with even your definition of "loon". Besides, there are other possible, sometimes contradictory, variables fitting in to this oversimplistic equation that would also = "loon". For example, "sheep" + "religion" + "obsessive focus" = "loon" "freethinker" + "athiest" + "obsessive focus" = "loon" "cypherpunk" + "statist" + "obsessive focus" = "loon" Then there's: "obsessive focus" = "loon" which brings up another view, namely: "obsessive focus" = "dedication" As far as "poor analysis/research" in and of itself goes: there have been plenty of groundbreaking works which had very poor analysis, but were invaluable in "showing the way". Many of their authors were very dedicated. And some were even, !gasp!, "dissident". At the very least, dedication has often led to the publicization of ideas which are thereafter better researched by others (we can call them "drones", "librarians", "technicians", or even "computers"). In any case, I've long gone past the point of rambling... and long past the general topicality of cypherpunks, so I'll shut up. Now... Goodnight. :) And, don't take this post too seriously as it is 3:41 AM here, and I'm past the point of starting to nod off........... zzzz...... ............................................................................ . Sergey Goldgaber <sergey@el.net> System Administrator el Net . ............................................................................ . To him who does not know the world is on fire, I have nothing to say . . - Bertholt Brecht . ............................................................................ -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: 2.6.2 Comment: http://www.pgp.net/pgpnet/pgp-faq/faq-05.html explains this signature. iQCVAwUBM0yaLcgbnd/MibbZAQHxPwP+KeWM7kuEs4n8aTFCiNzy39dkVvyuZR8R f/K23g2HjPSp9h9vDk0PBiPU6ZYBy9IitnW2bgURrKl3bxwlzNgwpS5s01MMc9H2 JFWL+33DoxnaZMQk0Rz7nvVcXuan4RkT+p64e35bX5kVpJTxpLBK/XpG5BtBVP82 1owNdLBDpFs= =2TqK -----END PGP SIGNATURE-----
Timothy C. May wrote:
Let's not make the Cypherpunks firing squad a circle.
Although Tim has been on the rag lately, perhaps this bit of humor is a sign that his period (pardon the pun) of male menopause is over. -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: Wouldn't you like to know? Hey!Youstinkingcops!I'musingPGPsoyouguyscanjustgofuck yourselfifyouthinkyou'regoingtoreadmyshit. =uO3j -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- -- Toto "The Xenix Chainsaw Massacre" http://bureau42.base.org/public/xenix/xenbody.html
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- At 01:32 PM 4/9/97 -0600, you wrote: |Timothy C. May wrote: | |> Let's not make the Cypherpunks firing squad a circle. | | Although Tim has been on the rag lately, perhaps this bit |of humor is a sign that his period (pardon the pun) of male |menopause is over. This sort of snide sexist humor has no place here. Alec -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: 4.5 iQCVAgUBM0wQQiKJGkNBIH7lAQGBaQQAsuFkZj/9SiPCQQVBRXTGJNCwd0vK2y// +FPs5naC0/xxEVR/K5TA2gP9L9LxQ9E8/XPV7UuMUnlac57TKhfZWA3R5nsEDwt2 lQ0ypCjeQjDodAOI5IkBLBOTXm+TUBFWlU7XyDk/xP23IOkCPFETU28qOAkbO3eq K81NNgvfnPs= =3mlt -----END PGP SIGNATURE-----
Alec <camcc@abraxis.com> writes:
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
At 01:32 PM 4/9/97 -0600, you wrote: |Timothy C. May wrote: | |> Let's not make the Cypherpunks firing squad a circle. | | Although Tim has been on the rag lately, perhaps this bit |of humor is a sign that his period (pardon the pun) of male |menopause is over.
This sort of snide sexist humor has no place here.
What sort of humor does have a place here? Timmy's racist rants about petards and crazy Russians? --- Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps
On Thu, 3 Apr 1997, Greg Broiles wrote:
A southern Washington newspaper, The Columbian (apparently published in Vancouver) provides a "greeked" (e.g., squiggles instead of text) version of its front page at http://www.columbian.com (you'll have to pick the frame for "The latest Columbian headlines") - and today's page one above-the-fold headline is "Affidavit: Internet essay solicits murder".
I have the Columbian with the front page articles. (They have two. One titled _Federal agents 'overreacting,' says Vancouver target of raid_ and the other titled _Assassination scheme on Internet_.) The articles are in the Columbian's standard style. (i.e. slanted towards sensationalizm and general tabloid sleeze with lots of quotation marks.)
It looks to me like this is real. Yow. Jim Bell is a goddamn loon, but I haven't seen him write anything that I thought was criminal.
What is "Criminal" is getting more and more broad. (My personal belief is that if the Government wanted to discredit AP they would just send Mr. Bell on a speaking tour.) Maybe the raid was just making an "example" as to what could happen to those who threaten the state. (No matter how badly.)
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- At 12:16 PM 4/3/97 -0800, Greg Broiles wrote:
It looks to me like this is real. Yow. Jim Bell is a goddamn loon, but I haven't seen him write anything that I thought was criminal.
The government persists in harassing or arresting people in these 1st Amendment cases even though they know they will not even be able to survive a motion to dismiss. It seems to be recreational for them. You can tell they're not serious because they didn't arrest Jim. JB has certainly managed to get noticed amongst all the "noise" out there in the world. Very difficult to do. And it's getting worse with the Nets. How many death threats must whitehouse.gov get these days? They probably lack the person power to investigate all of them. This will be another one where the raid gets publicity and the failure to prosecute is only noticed by a few. When they drop him, he should trumpet it far and wide. The dropping of the Jake Baker case got little publicity and I even had another lawyer on one of the law lists say that he thought they might try for another indictment. I knew they'd never get anywhere. In those very rare cases where you get a guaranteed government loss criminal investigation/prosecution the party involved should verbally abuse the government and point out their manifest pathetic weakness. It is very rare to be in that situation because the government won't usually back a loser. I urged Phil Z. to take an aggressive approach in his case but he felt uncomfortable about the idea. Perhaps as a "leftie" he granted the inherent authority of the government and was reluctant to bash it. So, JB, find a Portland cybercafe and let 'em have it. DCF "Obligatory John Donne quote: Do Not Ask For Whom the Bell Tools. It Tolls For Thee." -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: 4.5 iQCVAgUBM0RxR4VO4r4sgSPhAQFEDQP/b8QTvGKipSK4sUDvKIIznESmPQRncGP9 i2venrurNxIiHWorP+C+lpDdrXlC+lrcOfT6WLBFkV7UZTF5qduTqavtXYvCA+7W 1aF6CrE9dWUZNzjnpxMI2t3/Wpr/F7JF+nE1r2R3d6/pCtYZPw3gDeraS34hWXqp tDeuUYPEOyg= =0Znu -----END PGP SIGNATURE-----
To all lawyers out there: aren't there PUBLIC RECORDS that contain teh search warrant with the probably cause explanation and other material? It would be interesting to send a letter to some court and ask for all public record stuff about jimbell. just an idea igor Duncan Frissell wrote:
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
At 12:16 PM 4/3/97 -0800, Greg Broiles wrote:
It looks to me like this is real. Yow. Jim Bell is a goddamn loon, but I haven't seen him write anything that I thought was criminal.
The government persists in harassing or arresting people in these 1st Amendment cases even though they know they will not even be able to survive a motion to dismiss. It seems to be recreational for them. You can tell they're not serious because they didn't arrest Jim.
JB has certainly managed to get noticed amongst all the "noise" out there in the world. Very difficult to do. And it's getting worse with the Nets. How many death threats must whitehouse.gov get these days? They probably lack the person power to investigate all of them.
This will be another one where the raid gets publicity and the failure to prosecute is only noticed by a few. When they drop him, he should trumpet it far and wide. The dropping of the Jake Baker case got little publicity and I even had another lawyer on one of the law lists say that he thought they might try for another indictment. I knew they'd never get anywhere.
In those very rare cases where you get a guaranteed government loss criminal investigation/prosecution the party involved should verbally abuse the government and point out their manifest pathetic weakness. It is very rare to be in that situation because the government won't usually back a loser. I urged Phil Z. to take an aggressive approach in his case but he felt uncomfortable about the idea. Perhaps as a "leftie" he granted the inherent authority of the government and was reluctant to bash it.
So, JB, find a Portland cybercafe and let 'em have it.
DCF
"Obligatory John Donne quote: Do Not Ask For Whom the Bell Tools. It Tolls For Thee." -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: 4.5
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- Igor.
Yes, there are. I have a copy of the search warrant, IRS affidavit, and list of seized items. Beyond that, there's nothing else in the court record. And the U.S. Attorney isn't saying much. -Declan On Thu, 3 Apr 1997, Igor Chudov @ home wrote:
To all lawyers out there: aren't there PUBLIC RECORDS that contain teh search warrant with the probably cause explanation and other material? It would be interesting to send a letter to some court and ask for all public record stuff about jimbell.
just an idea
igor
Duncan Frissell wrote:
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
At 12:16 PM 4/3/97 -0800, Greg Broiles wrote:
It looks to me like this is real. Yow. Jim Bell is a goddamn loon, but I haven't seen him write anything that I thought was criminal.
The government persists in harassing or arresting people in these 1st Amendment cases even though they know they will not even be able to survive a motion to dismiss. It seems to be recreational for them. You can tell they're not serious because they didn't arrest Jim.
JB has certainly managed to get noticed amongst all the "noise" out there in the world. Very difficult to do. And it's getting worse with the Nets. How many death threats must whitehouse.gov get these days? They probably lack the person power to investigate all of them.
This will be another one where the raid gets publicity and the failure to prosecute is only noticed by a few. When they drop him, he should trumpet it far and wide. The dropping of the Jake Baker case got little publicity and I even had another lawyer on one of the law lists say that he thought they might try for another indictment. I knew they'd never get anywhere.
In those very rare cases where you get a guaranteed government loss criminal investigation/prosecution the party involved should verbally abuse the government and point out their manifest pathetic weakness. It is very rare to be in that situation because the government won't usually back a loser. I urged Phil Z. to take an aggressive approach in his case but he felt uncomfortable about the idea. Perhaps as a "leftie" he granted the inherent authority of the government and was reluctant to bash it.
So, JB, find a Portland cybercafe and let 'em have it.
DCF
"Obligatory John Donne quote: Do Not Ask For Whom the Bell Tools. It Tolls For Thee." -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: 4.5
iQCVAgUBM0RxR4VO4r4sgSPhAQFEDQP/b8QTvGKipSK4sUDvKIIznESmPQRncGP9 i2venrurNxIiHWorP+C+lpDdrXlC+lrcOfT6WLBFkV7UZTF5qduTqavtXYvCA+7W 1aF6CrE9dWUZNzjnpxMI2t3/Wpr/F7JF+nE1r2R3d6/pCtYZPw3gDeraS34hWXqp tDeuUYPEOyg= =0Znu -----END PGP SIGNATURE-----
- Igor.
Declan McCullagh wrote:
Yes, there are. I have a copy of the search warrant, IRS affidavit, and list of seized items. Beyond that, there's nothing else in the court record. And the U.S. Attorney isn't saying much.
This is cool. Could you post them? That woul;d be interesting. igor
-Declan
On Thu, 3 Apr 1997, Igor Chudov @ home wrote:
To all lawyers out there: aren't there PUBLIC RECORDS that contain teh search warrant with the probably cause explanation and other material? It would be interesting to send a letter to some court and ask for all public record stuff about jimbell.
just an idea
igor
Duncan Frissell wrote:
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At 12:16 PM 4/3/97 -0800, Greg Broiles wrote:
It looks to me like this is real. Yow. Jim Bell is a goddamn loon, but I haven't seen him write anything that I thought was criminal.
The government persists in harassing or arresting people in these 1st Amendment cases even though they know they will not even be able to survive a motion to dismiss. It seems to be recreational for them. You can tell they're not serious because they didn't arrest Jim.
JB has certainly managed to get noticed amongst all the "noise" out there in the world. Very difficult to do. And it's getting worse with the Nets. How many death threats must whitehouse.gov get these days? They probably lack the person power to investigate all of them.
This will be another one where the raid gets publicity and the failure to prosecute is only noticed by a few. When they drop him, he should trumpet it far and wide. The dropping of the Jake Baker case got little publicity and I even had another lawyer on one of the law lists say that he thought they might try for another indictment. I knew they'd never get anywhere.
In those very rare cases where you get a guaranteed government loss criminal investigation/prosecution the party involved should verbally abuse the government and point out their manifest pathetic weakness. It is very rare to be in that situation because the government won't usually back a loser. I urged Phil Z. to take an aggressive approach in his case but he felt uncomfortable about the idea. Perhaps as a "leftie" he granted the inherent authority of the government and was reluctant to bash it.
So, JB, find a Portland cybercafe and let 'em have it.
DCF
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- Igor.
- Igor.
I've had a couple requests to redistribute or post the info I have on Jim Bell. I've decided not to. There's a good bit of personal information in there, including his SSN and information about financial investments, that I don't feel comfortable posting. I suspect Jim has enough problems already. Yes, I know, "information will be free" and all that, but I don't have to be the cause of its release. -Declan
Declan McCullagh wrote:
I've had a couple requests to redistribute or post the info I have on Jim Bell. I've decided not to. There's a good bit of personal information in there, including his SSN and information about financial investments, that I don't feel comfortable posting. I suspect Jim has enough problems already.
Yes, I know, "information will be free" and all that, but I don't have to be the cause of its release.
Oh, OK, I did not know. Anyway, how does one request that information? What should the letter to the court say? And what is the address of teh court? - Igor.
participants (11)
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Alan -
Alec -
Christopher Blizzard -
Declan McCullagh -
Declan McCullagh -
dlv＠bwalk.dm.com -
Duncan Frissell -
Greg Broiles -
ichudov＠algebra.com -
Sergey Goldgaber -
Toto