Re: COMMUNITY CONNEXION REFUSES TO CENSOR INTERNET SERVICES
the SWC is a prime example of very narrow view which is trying to "control" what we can say --unfortunately, SWC is guilty of the same mind-control tactics as the core Nazi party which persecuted them == a very poor example. In Germany, trading on collective guilt they will never stop feeding, they have effectively controlled the issue so that _any_ speech or revision against their agenda is a hate crime, and therefore a serious felony.
thank you for standing up to the Simon Weisenthal Center!
Ok, I know better than to get into: a) Totally off topic discussions on lists and even worse b) Political, off topic discussions. However, I really do feel its my obligation to offer a counterpoint to Attila here. (Not a sanction of his own discussion, but a little debate.) I do this because I had a long talk with someone who liked to use weighted terms to speak against jews and jewish organizations, and am still a wee bit sensitive. What the SWC asked was idiotic. However, they are in no way guilty of the same 'mind-control tactics as the core Nazi party.' That is exibitionism, and is dangerous. They sent out a request asking ISPs to take an action. They did not demand it, imply any sort of economic response, or direct physical response. As for Germany, a number of different cultures were attacked in WWII. On the one hand Jews are most often discussed, because they were the most openly herded and vilified at the time. However, Russians, Poles, Gypsies, Gays and many others were also sent to camps. Germany is a very multicultural nation. The tensions, and issues of keeping a cap on racism are very important. When neonazis killed the turkish family, thousands of Germans turned out to show that they won't stand for such again. If that is the result of actions taken by the SWC in the media, and in politics then I'd say they have done a wonderful job overall. As for attempts of revision. What sort of revision? If you mean historical revision, like the groups which claim the Holocaust (again something which affected many different groups) never happened, or was a Jewish conspiracy, then I'm glad that sort of revision is seen as a hate crime. The reason I'm so sensitive about these things is that the person I had a debate with over this area before could see nothing done by Jews in a positive light. Use of the media was whining, use of the law was sneaky, actual action was nazism. Thus I'll stop now. I don't condone what the SWC asked for in this case, and those who know my postings should know I strongly support privacy and freedom of expression. I just equally feel that its my obligation when certain things are posted, to not let little loaded comments go unrebutted. (See whoever is there at the RSA conference this week.) Jonathan Sorry again for taking up the list's time.
On Sun, 14 Jan 1996, Jonathan Zamick wrote:
Ok, I know better than to get into: a) Totally off topic discussions on lists
absolutely, I should have restrained my comment to sameer to: "thank you for standing up for all our rights."
and even worse b) Political, off topic discussions.
political --yes, unfortunately. Off topic --well it is our liberties and our freedoms --and after CI$ using the German prosecuter as an excuse to preempt Exon... Yes, I agree, let's muff it; I did not completely or correctly express myself. I advocate the total conservative-libertarian belief in the absoluteness of the first amendment. Unfortunately, it is seems to be necessary to place a limit as to what constitutes constitution freedoms v. the public good. However, I abhor an ever expanding bureaucracy which can only degenerate into an ever more powerful thought police. This is the same concept we, as cryptologists, dedicated to freedom of expression, privacy, and a means to avoid the fear of government intervention, are willing to confront that very authority.
However, I really do feel its my obligation to offer a counterpoint to Attila here. (Not a sanction of his own discussion, but a little debate.) I do this because I had a long talk with someone who liked to use weighted terms to speak against jews and jewish organizations, and am still a wee bit sensitive.
no, I agree with your premise. I did not intend to imply the "jews are at fault" or any such hate drivel --only that the SWC was out of bounds and succumbing to the call for restrictions of the rights they themselves have so long championed. my real objection to the SWC is the expectation of guilt; the sins of the father shall be visited upon the sons and their sons, etc. you can not live and grow in history. there is _no_ present, only the future. and the future is NOW!
What the SWC asked was idiotic. However, they are in no way guilty of the same 'mind-control tactics as the core Nazi party.'
we can probably disagree forever --it is a semantical issue. unfortunately, both were built on general fear and hysteria. However, it is essential to fully understand the SWC has NEVER advocated any "final solution" or any other such rot against humanity.
The reason I'm so sensitive about these things is that the person I had a debate with over this area before could see nothing done by Jews in a positive light.
well, I guess the person you were confronting was insecure with himself and perhaps even envious of the enormous contributions the Jews have been in the advancement of knowledge over history --the musicians, writers, statesmen, and so on. I take issue with their general politics, more so because it breeds a backlash which endangers all of us --including them, but that is not an issue to cast a negative pall. without trying to start another political war between the anarcho-libertarians, progressive libertarians, Jeffersonian democrats, Hamiliton-Madison-Jay Federalists, centrists, republicans, conservative democrats, liberal democrats, socialists, and marxists (did I miss too many shades other than the oligarchists, plutocrats, feudal, and totalitarian states), let's all take a little natural Melotrin <sp? --never tried it myself> and head for pleasant dreams! __________________________________________________________________________ go not unto usenet for advice, for the inhabitants thereof will say: yes, and no, and maybe, and I don't know, and fuck-off. _________________________________________________________________ attila__ To be a ruler of men, you need at least 12 inches....
participants (2)
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attila -
Jonathan Zamick