Re: ID card from hell
I basically agree with Duncan's noble sentiments. I just don't think it likely that the "What about the tourists?" argument will stop the national ID juggernaut once it begins to move.
The grim necessity of working for a living precludes a proper answer at this time. For now though: "You can buy heroin in maximum security prisons." Controls don't always work. DCF "Eudora for Windows addict since approximately 9:05 this morning."
I basically agree with Duncan's noble sentiments. I just don't think it likely that the "What about the tourists?" argument will stop the national ID juggernaut once it begins to move.
The grim necessity of working for a living precludes a proper answer at this time. For now though:
Since I no longer work for a living, I can respond now :-}. (I despise smileys, but one seemed apropos here.)
"You can buy heroin in maximum security prisons." Controls don't always work.
Well, of course. But this doesn't make the prospects of "internal passports" (as I think it was you who dubbed them...or maybe Sandy) any less likely, or any less worthy of fighting. While if I were in prison, I might indeed be able to score heroin, a national ID card tied in to financial transactions, employment, driver's licenses, etc.,--"once card fits all"--would be incredibly bothersome and intrusive. And short of "going underground," with all that that implies, or leaving the country, your words of comfort about buying heroin in prison would do me little good. I was mainly saying that the "What about the tourists?" rebuttal is very weak, and is easily solved. Further, the solution for the tourist problem is actually one of he main motives for a national ID card: stopping illegal immigrants by "freezing them out" of routine economic, school, employment, and other transactions. Ditto for the point Duncan often raises, presumable semi-ironically. To wit, answering ID card checkers with a flippant "But I'm an illegal alien." "Fine," they will say, "we'll take you down to the Processing Center." (Yes, I acknowledge that local shopkeepers will not, for example, be the enforcers....in case Duncan raises the issue of there not being enough cops to do this work. But it is completely plausible that all cash register transactions could require presentation of the ID card, for various reasons (perhaps made more palatable by offering some rebate on sales taxes paid, or a VAT). Claiming one lacks a proper card will just result in a "No Sale," just as a refusal to pay the sales tax usually results in a "No Sale."...don't tell me about how some merchants will offer to eat the sales tax...try that at Safeway. (I'm not claiming Duncan will make this argument, just trying to anticipate the nitpicky wise-ass comments people often make; the fact is, most people will follow the rules, and if an ID card is made part of the economic system--as it already is for booze and cigaretters, a la age credentials--then those without an ID card will be a Real Bad Situation. Yes, anticipating rebuttals, black markets exist. But few will argue that buying most items on a black market, complete with stings, arrests, etc., is a pleasant way to live.) I for one view this prospect with alarm, and have since I read "1984' so many years ago, and then read "Shockwave" in 1975. I don't consider it too soon to think about ways to monkeywrench it. (And as an EFF member, dues all paid up, I have no hope that EFF or any of its FLA brethren will oppose this firmly. At the risk of angering our own John Gilmore, a founder of the EFF, I think EFF management is so enamored of being inside the Beltway that it will likely confine its role to providing "input" to the Gorewellian forces putting this thing together.) "National ID cards are just the driver's licenses on the Information Superhighway." --Tim May -- .......................................................................... Timothy C. May | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money, tcmay@netcom.com | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero 408-688-5409 | knowledge, reputations, information markets, W.A.S.T.E.: Aptos, CA | black markets, collapse of governments. Higher Power: 2^859433 | Public Key: PGP and MailSafe available. "National borders are just speed bumps on the information superhighway."
rebate on sales taxes paid, or a VAT). Claiming one lacks a proper card will just result in a "No Sale," just as a refusal to pay the sales tax usually results in a "No Sale."...don't tell me about how This is, in fact, coded into the health care proposals. In one compromise bill there is a tax of $10 every time you make a healthcare
On Thu, 14 Jul 1994, Timothy C. May wrote: transaction where the recordkeeping is not in electronic format. I might note that this was the same as the price of a FFL before they rased it to $600 to cope with some lie about a national problem or something. Roger.
tcmay@netcom.com (Timothy C. May) <199407142033.NAA01489@netcom3.netcom.com> writes:
(And as an EFF member, dues all paid up, I have no hope that EFF or any of its FLA brethren will oppose this firmly. At the risk of angering our own John Gilmore, a founder of the EFF, I think EFF management is so enamored of being inside the Beltway that it will likely confine its role to providing "input" to the Gorewellian forces putting this thing together.)
This may be an area where CPSR does a better job than EFF. CPSR has a pretty good record on these topics, and seems less caught up in the 'but these guys are my friends' philosophy of EFF. At the risk of reopening a very old thread, it is an unfortunate fact that, in this country, these proposals are not getting the widespread opposition that they would if they were introduced by Republicans.
Timothy C. May says:
"You can buy heroin in maximum security prisons." Controls don't always work.
Well, of course. But this doesn't make the prospects of "internal passports" (as I think it was you who dubbed them...or maybe Sandy) any less likely, or any less worthy of fighting.
The following is worth mentioning: market forces will eventually destroy virtually all controls. However, as the Soviet Union showed, millions of people can be made miserable or killed in the meanwhile. The mere fact that internal passports (what the ID cards are, really -- another friend of mine called them that the minute he heard of them) would not stop everyone doesn't mean that they couldn't make almost everyone's life miserable. Perry
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The following is worth mentioning: market forces will eventually destroy virtually all controls. However, as the Soviet Union showed, millions of people can be made miserable or killed in the meanwhile. The mere fact that internal passports (what the ID cards are, really -- another friend of mine called them that the minute he heard of them) would not stop everyone doesn't mean that they couldn't make almost everyone's life miserable.
Perry
Do they realize how difficult it will be to get all the rural people, little old ladies, etc. to go along with this? sdw -- Stephen D. Williams Local Internet Gateway Co.; SDW Systems 513 496-5223APager LIG dev./sales Internet: sdw@lig.net OO R&D Source Dist. By Horse: 2464 Rosina Dr., Miamisburg, OH 45342-6430 Comm. Consulting ICBM: 39 34N 85 15W I love it when a plan comes together Newbie Notice: (Surfer's know the score...) I speak for LIGCo., CCI, myself, and no one else, regardless of where it is convenient to post from or thru.
On Thu, 14 Jul 1994, Stephen D. Williams wrote:
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Do they realize how difficult it will be to get all the rural people, little old ladies, etc. to go along with this?
Assuming that this becomes mandatory for all transactions that involve the govt, most little old ladies would have to go along if they wanted their medicare and social security checks. I dont see a huge liklihood of most people wanting to give up those (or even being able to afford to). Dave
The following is worth mentioning: market forces will eventually destroy virtually all controls. However, as the Soviet Union showed, millions of people can be made miserable or killed in the meanwhile. The mere fact that internal passports (what the ID cards are, really -- another friend of mine called them that the minute he heard of them) would not stop everyone doesn't mean that they couldn't make almost everyone's life miserable.
Perry
Perry makes my point well. That some people will be able to skirt the system, or that the system will ultimately be unenforceable, does not lessen my concerns. My assets are not well hidden--which makes it very tough for me to adopt a low-profile, tax-avoiding, ID card-skirting lifestyle. (As to why my assets are not well hidden, hiding assets is harder than you think, despite what some here on this list may claim.) To tie this in with the title I picked for this thread, about national ID cards being the driver's licenses for the Infobahn, let's consider that for a moment. - Imagine that vehicle registrations require presentation of this card (gotta get those illegals out of their cars, or, more benignly, the bureaucracy simply makes the ID cars part of their process). - Instantly this makes those who refuse to get an ID card unable to get valid license tags. (Enforcement is already pretty good....I was pulled over a couple of times for either forgetting to put my new stickers on, or for driving with Oregon expired tags.) - Now I suspect my friend Duncan will mention that one can--and should--lease one's car from one's Nevada-based tax shelter company. Perhaps. But I again claim that this is much easier said than actually done. (I hear these proposals and think of all the detailed arguments about how income taxes are invalid becuase Ohio incorrectly ratified the XXth Amendment, or somesuch. All very logical, but it doesn't work.) Anyway, I see the imposition of internal passports--with a name chosen for easiest acceptance, probably something like "Social Benefits Card"--as very likely and not easily avoided. Just the tying of such cards to driving would be devastatingly effective. Ditto for travel. And commerce. Let's not forget that Nickie Halflinger was able to bypass the Surveillance State because he was one of the guys who wrote the system! The rest of us will be mostly unable to skirt the system. --Tim May -- .......................................................................... Timothy C. May | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money, tcmay@netcom.com | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero 408-688-5409 | knowledge, reputations, information markets, W.A.S.T.E.: Aptos, CA | black markets, collapse of governments. Higher Power: 2^859433 | Public Key: PGP and MailSafe available. "National borders are just speed bumps on the information superhighway."
C'punks, On Thu, 14 Jul 1994, Timothy C. May wrote:
. . . As to why my assets are not well hidden, hiding assets is harder than you think, despite what some here on this list may claim. . . .
- Now I suspect my friend Duncan will mention that one can--and should--lease one's car from one's Nevada-based tax shelter company. Perhaps. But I again claim that this is much easier said than actually done.
(I hear these proposals and think of all the detailed arguments about how income taxes are invalid becuase Ohio incorrectly ratified the XXth Amendment, or somesuch. All very logical, but it doesn't work.)
The error in Tim's analogy between his income tax example standard privacy techniques is that the techniques have already passed the test of time. They aren't theoretical; people have used them for years. Tim's claim that "this is much easier said than actually done" only indicates that Tim either has never tried to do it, or did it poorly. I've seen it done--year in and year out. It's real, folks. Over the period I've been on this list, I've seen the optimism of various Cypherpunks wax and wane. Normally, I greatly respect Tim's opinions. Today, though, I think Tim is reflecting an emotional response more than a factual one. I, and I'm sure Duncan, would be more than happy to discuss the subject with anyone on the list who is interested. Let's do it offline, though, unless there is a strong crypto tie-in. S a n d y
participants (8)
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Berzerk -
Dave Banisar -
frissell＠panix.com -
Linn Stanton -
Perry E. Metzger -
Sandy Sandfort -
sdw＠lig.net -
tcmay＠netcom.com