I think the "religious war" involving Java, C++, applets, security models, Unix, and Netscape is _fine_ for this list. A heretical view, perhaps, to applaud a religious war, but the topics are certainly germane to this list. Some may argue that "comp.lang.java.advocacy" or "comp.lang.flames" are better places to have this debate, but I think not. Here on this list we have Netscape represented, users of major tools to develop crypto applications, and many with concerns about security. That Victor Boyko wrote such a concise summary of his objections to Java vis-a-vis C++, and that Wei Dai was planning to write such a summary until he saw Victor's summary, says that debate is robust. So long as the "religious war" does not devolve to mere invocations of deities, we're OK. In fact, to tell the truth, call this debate a "religious war" is probably incorrect. Few debates are more important than this one. --Tim May Boycott "Big Brother Inside" software! We got computers, we're tapping phone lines, we know that that ain't allowed. ---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---- Timothy C. May | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money, tcmay@got.net 408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA | knowledge, reputations, information markets, Licensed Ontologist | black markets, collapse of governments. "National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."