This list is a community. I've avoided commenting on Jim Choate's flames and "never let go of an argument" style, but he is increasing his denunciation of the list, so I will comment. Jim Choate writes:
My main rationale is that while I see lots of people making suggestions I dont see any of them actually carrying it out. In the whole time I have been on this list I have *never* seen referals to the newsgroups. I have seen a general trend to repost this material so that people simply have it right then and there instead of having to send a sub-group roaming around looking for it. Seems a much more labor saving system.
If you have "*never*" seen referrals to the newsgroups, then you must be not reading much of what gets posted here. I, for one, have many dozens of time (maybe hundreds of times, since 1992) referred to articles in sci.crypt, talk.politics.crypto, alt.security.pgp, etc. (Including some that I wrote for those groups.) Anyone who claims that the newsgroups never get discussed, and then decides that all 500 subscribers simply must see a bunch of articles on random number generators--a topic we have discussed a dozen times--is clearly grinding an axe. Lashing out at the list as being full of good-for-nothings simply because of complaints about these articles is absurd. As for the first point, that many suggestions are made but then not carried out, this is the nature of all discussion groups I've ever seen. After all, we're not being *paid* to do all this. We're not organized into teams, and so on. And despite this, impressive progress has been made: * Remailers. Cypherpunks remailers with new features, more sites. This is clearly the cutting edge of remailers, more so even than Julf's site. (Cyphepunks remailers are distributed, instantiable by almost anyone, are adding new features, etc. Julf's site remains singular, and has not added major features in a long time.) * Several list members are central to the development of PGP. * SecureDrive, CurveEncrypt, and other crypto programs are tied to various list members. * Experiments with digital money have been underway...the lack of concrete progress owes more to general problems with such things than on lack of effort. (Pr0duct Cypher, Matt Thomlinson, others.) * Although we can't always claim everyone as a member, such people as Whit Diffie, Phil Zimmermann, Bruce Schneier, Matt Blaze, Phiber Optik, and Jim Bidzos have attended our meetings. Some of them are list subscribers, etc. The 500+ subscribers included some of the best-known cryptologists outside the NSA. (And maybe inside?) * The role of Cypherpunks has been manifold: practical work on remailers, tools, digital money....education and discussion....analysis of new protocols, etc. (For example, at today's meeting the focus is on "swIPe," an important new system written by John Ionannaddis (sp?), Phil Karn, etc.--I hope I got the credit right.) I could go on, but I won't. Given that I can't recall Jim Choate being involved in any of these projects, or giving us insightful analyses of trends, developments, and technical details, I don't think he's in a position to condemn the rest of the list. People who lash out at the list, calling the list a place for people who never do anything, are revealing their own failures of imagination. I can't see why they choose to remain on the list if they despise it that much. --Tim May -- .......................................................................... Timothy C. May | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money, tcmay@netcom.com | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero 408-688-5409 | knowledge, reputations, information markets, W.A.S.T.E.: Aptos, CA | black markets, collapse of governments. Higher Power: 2^859433 | Public Key: PGP and MailSafe available. "National borders are just speed bumps on the information superhighway."