Perry E. Metzger wrote:
Unix is perfectly easy to use. Its no worse than DOS.
"James A. Donald" says:
Thanks for the entertainment Perry.
Perry E. Metzger wrote:
I see that you have no arguments against my statement...
I made no arguments because A: This is not the proper place for such arguments. B: The statement is so flagrantly silly that the proper response is ridicule, not an answer. Bill O'Hanlon wrote:
If you're going to be snotty and sarcastic, the least you could do is provide a counter-example, to give us something to discuss.
[Childish insults, abuse, and flame bait deleted] Well I did not post examples because other people had been ridiculing unix for me, (but they were too subtle for you to understand), and also because this is not the proper place for such examples. But since you guys insist: Long flame on unix follows. Note that although this flame has nothing to do with cypherpunks it I am discussing unix, not the character and mental abilities of the people I am replying to, unlike the usual posts from Perry and Bill,. Flame on: Perry E. Metzger wrote:
Unix is perfectly easy to use. Its no worse than DOS.
Bill O'Hanlon wrote:
I had agreed with Perry's statement when I saw it. I've taught classes in both DOS and UNIX. Whenever I've taught people who knew next to nothing about computers, I found people were able to attain a basic "user" sort of skill level in about the same amount of time with about the same difficulty when learning either.
Perry's statement and yours is true but irrelevant. Why is it that for so long people lived with a make utility that treated tabs differently to blanks. "Hey! My makefile has mysteriously stopped working!" Why is it that scientists still publish in latex? Why is it that so many people are STILL using vi in unix: Because, unless you wish to live in EMACS, it is too hard to get your local unix deities to set stuff up so that you never have to see the accursed vi. If MIS sets up a decent word processor for the secretaries in UNIX or Windows, then the secretaries can do moron work just as easily in either system. In that sense Perry and Bill are perfectly correct. But Unix needs that MIS support to set up the decent word processor and Windows does not. Why do you think all the scientists are publishing their stuff in latex? Do you propose to teach the secretaries latex? Any fool can set up a home network using Windows for Workgroups. I certainly could not set up a home network using Unix, and I doubt that you could either. You probably could do it eventually, but you would spend weeks futzing with the system, you would visit other unix gurus and consult with them, carefully study manuals, copy other peoples configuration files and futz with them, etc. My kid could probably set up windows for workgroups, share the disks and the printer etc, in half an hour, even if he had never seen a PC network before. (Though I would have to install the ethernet cards myself. A few weeks ago MIS replaced everyones Sparc 10s with Sparcstation 20s. It was days before we were functioning again, and for a time I was practically living in my local unix guru's cube. Unix requires a vast sea of arcane obscure knowledge to all kinds of trivial and routine things. Using unix makes everyone dependent on a bunch of gurus in a way that does not happen in DOS. Yes unix can be set up to be great, but it usually is not, and the reason it is not is that IT IS USUALLY TOO HARD EVEN FOR GURUS to do it. (Which is why scientific papers are published using latex.) And when it is finally set up that way, you can only do those things that MIS envisaged you to do, cause if you do what you want to do then the whole damn house of cards comes tumbling down around your ears. For example I have Sun's half assed GUI, which has an almost tolerable editor, similar to Microsofts basic minimum editor, notepad. But a weird file system has been patched on to support source control (Cleartools), and like everything else in unix it sort of half works with the rest of the system, so we have to use vi. Even my unix guru uses vi. And why the hell do I need a unix guru in order to do stuff that dim witted secretaries do easily and routinely in DOS/Windows? And try cut and paste anything except text in Sun's so called GUI. And try to cut and paste *big* amounts of text. And try to fiddle with the background screen etc -- yes it can be done, but it is vastly more difficult and arcane than under Windows. Learning this kind of garbage is exactly like learning Vi. Vi occupies so much brain space that even though I hate and loath it, I find myself typing vi commands in editors that I use vastly more than vi. Exposure to vi has impaired my use of editors I used before vi, editors that are immeasurably superior. People who imagine that vi is a decent editor have suffered brain damage due to exposure to grossly bad tools. They perceive it as easy to use because it has damaged them in the same way as it has damaged me. And why am I using Vi? Well, if unix has lots of wonderful tools available why are lots and lots of people still using the worlds most hated software? Because unless you want to live in EMACS, it is intolerably painful to escape from the clutches of this thoroughly evil editor. Sure MIS *could* set it up so no one need be exposed to the evils of vi. But they do not. Those who imagine that unix is easy to use are suffering from a similar form of brain damage, similar to that caused by vi, but a broader and more serious form. When people talked about teaching secretaries latex, did not you realize they were having a dig at unix? If you did not pick that one up, it shows that unix has already caused extensive brain damage. You must stop your unix habit right now before it is too late. --------------------------------------------------------------------- | We have the right to defend ourselves | http://www.catalog.com/jamesd/ and our property, because of the kind | of animals that we are. True law | James A. Donald derives from this right, not from the | arbitrary power of the omnipotent state. | jamesd@netcom.com