As I read the contribution from Jim Choate on the subject of "rights", I had some further thoughts & comments on the subject. Please delete if you don't care; it doesn't address cryptology directly, but some of you *are* interested, and if you have further comments please just send to me and copy only those others who also have expressed interest. ~ Blanc ----------
From Jim choate:
Seems to me that a 'right' as is being discussed should be 'Civil Right'. When used in this context I believe a suitable definition would be the following: Civil Right A characteristic granted to a citizen of a country which is beyond the normal law making ability of that countries governing body. In effect it grants a citizen the ability to make decisions and act on them without regulation or permission being required by the government. It in effect says that there are certain facets of an individual which are outside the normal operations of a government and can not be regulated or otherwise controlled through legistlative means. ........................................................................ It is true that the term a "right" can mean different things, depending on how one is considering the word & its meaning; in terms of a governed society, the meaning should be considered within the context of action as limited by agreement/consent, as something that involves the group's assessment of what is to be allowed (or not) within the organization; what permission will be granted and by whom, for what purpose, considering the consequences to all involved. The ability to determine what shall be considered a "right" depends upon the knowledge and intelligence of those who can make such decisions, who can achieve a comprehensive view of the situation and put individual action into perspective within this sweeping view. Given such a requirement, I would question the order of things, in concluding what the proper source is for the establishment of what these right should be, and give serious examination to the interpretation of what the actual nature of our circumstance is, (within the context of a society "under" government, but with liberty & justice for all, etc.). It is a bit difficult to make a succinct sentence which comprises all of my thoughts into a few sentences, I hope the above is not too difficult to understand. Not to make an example of Jim's contribution, but it just so happened that going through the sentences in the paragraph offered by him, I found concepts which I see as sources ripe for confusion & contention: A characteristic granted....... . So, the origin of this 'right' is from the decision-making of those elected to make considerations of this kind, which no one else is permitted to make. And I wonder: what qualifies them for this, the exclusive right to determine what it is all right to do within the context of a governed body of people, to be the ones who "grant" permissions to move, to do, to act. i.e., the source of an allowance to movement comes not from the ability to think correctly about it, to make valid judgements, but only from a permission *granted* to one by another. This immediately puts an individual's own thinking in danger; there is created the possibility of having one's own decisions categorized as without merit because they do not serve the purposes of the government, or because they do not serve the purpose of the governed society (the significance of which is seen as more important than that of being an individual of a singular character - compared to, say, an amoeba which absorbs all, as societies often begin to imagine themselves to be and presume themselves to have the right to demand utter mindless conformity on account of their numerous fears of what wanton individuals might do). It is unreal, that the determination for what is a 'right' is thought to come not from the ability to think successfully about life, liberty & the pursuit of happiness, but from the position one has been awarded over other citizens. This is like the right to a position over their minds, as well. And the ability to think and to serve the purposes of one's own interest are seen, then, as a crime, unless first submitted to the State for review and authorization as politically acceptable and therefore allowable. ...it grants a citizen the ability to make decisions and act on them without regulation or permission being required by the government...... . who are all honorable men..... :>) who recognize the merit of being an individual, not simply a "member" or society; i.e., not a lesser being, a minor "element" of the greater good, the Great Society, but, au contraire, who is expected to engage (to the max) in the pursuits explicity named in the Constitution (or was it the Declaration of Intent, Know What I Mean, George). ...there are certain facets of an individual which are outside the normal operations of a government . . . . . . As an exception to the rule? where most of the facets of being an individual are *within* the "normal" operations of a government? This concept does not represent they way that I think of the activities or the boundaries of my life, nor what I would wish to impose on others (or no one that I could admire). I'm sure government employees would agree with this, where I would not. It really is necessary to consider what is "normal" for a human being first, rather than what is normal for a government. First there must be someone to be governed......and a satisfactory reason why they should be governed. ...certain facets of an individual... cannot be regulated or otherwise controlled through legistlative means . . . . So there are a "few" things to be acknowledged, after all, as existing outside the atmosphere of governmental control. You know, "legislative means" are only the precursors to action; legislation only arranges verbally the threat of what will later be done physically to someone if they do not comply. This statement implies that one is only free secondarily, but primarily exists within an environment of control (external to one's own). I don't think it was intended that citizens of the US think of themselves as regulated first and freemen second. I don't think this is the correct way to think about life per se, or about "rights" within the context of an organization. Furthermore, the truth of the matter is that legislation alone does not control my (or anyone's) actions from some power of its own, and it alone does not automatically convince me of what I ought or ought not do, simply because it has been written, and voted agreeably upon, by members of an electorate. They could all be wrong. The control which exists as brought about by legislative means is only the effect upon the mind of those who will fear the consequences, delivered by "enforcement personnel" armed with weapons of subjugation. And as we all know, legislators themselves have ways of getting around this fear and its expected consequences. But this does not necessarily do any justice to reality, the cause/effect that we live with in the 'real world', which it is our responsibility to come to terms with if we want to live and have a quality existence. And this is what is left out of legislation: that we have to come to terms with it (reality) independently, not only in association with each other, and that we have to do this first in regard to our own lives, before we worry about those of others. The direction of the concept of a 'right' is set towards group thinking (the collective), whereas the Constitution would set it in the other direction. Gosh, I'm so glad everyone on this list is crypto-anarchist and can appreciate the fine details of anti-government analyses. ~ finis ~