While I'm on a rant about what's wrong with the way the list is going, let me mention another serious problem: * People who want others to "do more." It seems that every few months someone starts loudly whining that others are not doing enough. This is very grating. For example, Detweiler started down his path to neurosis by begging and pleading for folks on the list to do more to help fulfill his vision of a "whisteblowing" group (note that others had discussed this idea, too, so Detweiler cannot claim all the credit). His pleas were eventually answered by Miron Cuperman, who went ahead and newgrouped "alt.whistleblowing" or similar. This is, by the way, now an essentially zero traffic group. More recently, "Xenon" got it into his head that the most important project in the universe was "Stealth PGP." Again, a good idea (and one that Phil Zimmermann, Kelly Goen, and others were calling by that exact same name more than a year ago). But Xenon figured that if he excoriated us enough for not immediately implementing his vision, we'd eventually work on it. He flamed out after a brief stint on the list and says he is now unsubscribed. (Which is too bad, as he had some good ideas. His problem is that he got _too excited_ about some particular ideas. Yes, getting "too excited" can be a problem: when one exhorts others to do the work one cannot or will not do oneself. In other words, badgering, lecturing, and moralizing. Xenon apparently came to see the lack of a rush to his flavor of steganography as some sort of failure of will by the Cypherpunks, and unsubscribed.) These are the dangers. Whenever I feel the urge to exhort others to work harder and longer at some task, I think about this situation. (I have no problem with political rants, exhorting folks to adopt my point of view on something. But I avoid--I hope--asking others to do work that I am unwilling or unable to do. It just isn't right. If one wants others to do something concrete, a less "bossy" approach is called for, and one should be prepared to give something in return.) Closely related to this issue is the habit some have of talking about what "we" have decided "our" goals are and how these goals of "ours" should be fulfilled. (As a sidenote, L. Detweiler kept asking what the "Cypherpunks goals" were and what the "leaders" expected to be done. When many folks told him in no uncertain terms just what kind of anarchy the List is, poor Detweiler just couldn't handle it. I think "control freaks" like Detweiler want plans, want others in harness to fulfill these plans, and want to boss others around.) I'll stop with the rants for now. Take my comments any way you like, but I hope they are taken in the spirit in which they are given--as honest observations of some of the problmes affecting a list with nearly 800 subscribers. Cheers! --Tim May -- .......................................................................... Timothy C. May | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money, tcmay@netcom.com | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero 408-688-5409 | knowledge, reputations, information markets, W.A.S.T.E.: Aptos, CA | black markets, collapse of governments. Higher Power: 2^859433 | Public Key: PGP and MailSafe available. "National borders are just speed bumps on the information superhighway."