From jnn at synfin.org  Mon Aug  1 04:39:36 2016
From: jnn at synfin.org (John Newman)
Date: Mon, 1 Aug 2016 07:39:36 -0400
Subject: Trolling the CIA Like a Boss
In-Reply-To: <CAG2tMp7Yw+re5En6qmjPArX3P7YjkRSBpsitAmQcnkXAG12pgg@mail.gmail.com>
References: <20160715000253.GG30352@x220-a02>
 <C0DBF78A-E391-4BFD-B8DC-D3EFBAE5D11D@synfin.org> <5788F808.50804@riseup.net>
 <CAG2tMp5pPFrcUAZiFVNEi8Ck2jKCGkdVE7t1R-XRA9QLTGERrA@mail.gmail.com>
 <4y2JMdEUuJVwCC0gg9OqHtfEx-fLd6a65EGwO3nsxVJDMyKpXD3hRrQjqpU9EHgxSV-Lm_0X1QhFnKxckpcl0A==@protonmail.ch>
 <CAG2tMp7Yw+re5En6qmjPArX3P7YjkRSBpsitAmQcnkXAG12pgg@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <785813B1-565E-4A19-B04B-BB93F670DFBC@synfin.org>

What were all those rumors a while back that Assange had a bunch of Russian shit, but basically the FSB threatened his life / families lives / something ... so he avoided big Russian scoops ever since ?

I don't remember this stuff ever going beyond rumor, innuendo.... 


John

> On Jul 31, 2016, at 1:47 AM, Cecilia Tanaka <cecilia.tanaka at gmail.com> wrote:
> 
> Hi, Digitalfolklore!
> 
> Hope you wanted to send this message to cypherpunks lists, not for me in special.  :)
> 
> I don't know exactly what is happening, but received some strange private messages in different channels about Wikileaks.  Err...  Why me?  Did someone say something or is just my famous oriental charm?  :-/
> 
> Usually, I love Wikileaks, but I do not support some of their last actions.  Everybody knows about strange leaks to manage USA elections, the Turkish leaks and deleted bizarre tweets.  These things annoyed me a lot.
> 
> I wasn't tweeting in the last times, but, few days ago, I admiss I tweeted about  <https://ourresponse.org>  and retweeted one of Wikileaks' account tweets about Jake.  Just it. 
> 
> Only a cordial relationship between an institucional account and a poor unknowed follower, who had lost a lot of friends, contacts and followers in last months.  I am only lurking on twitter, avoiding flaming wars and boring people.  No much patience for all the drama.
> 
> It's my usual behaviour in foreign lists too.  I only broke my typical pattern because of Jake.  I was already an old reader here and on tor-talk list, before being kickbanned.  I am very noisy and chaotical, and my English stinks more than someone's... little cat!  So, silence is always more comfortable for me, even being a talkative troll.  :)
> 
> Am I guilty of some of their bad leaks and was not informed about it yet?  They were noisy and chaotical, but not mine!  :)
> 
> Ah, I always make a lot of strange things, but not personalized panties.  If you want Snodew or Assange panties, you can suggest the idea to Wikileaks.  Certainly they will be very sexy, but not like the charming "Put in" panties, hihi!  :)
> 
> It would be fun to use Tor Project panties.  I still use their stickers in my notebooks and devices, even after all this mess.  It's a pity that g-strings have no much area to onions or Schneier facts, hahaha!!!  ;D
> 
> https://www.zerodayclothing.com/schneierfacts.php
> 
> There are Schneier Facts T-shirts, but cryptography in panties would be awesome, wow!!!  Loved the idea!!! Ok, I will consider it just for fun!  <3
>  
> 
> ---------- Forwarded message ----------
> From: "Digitalfolklore" <digitalfolklore at protonmail.ch>
> Date: Jul 30, 2016 2:03 AM
> Subject: Re: Trolling the CIA Like a Boss
> To: "Cecilia Tanaka" <cecilia.tanaka at gmail.com>
> 
> waiting for wikileaks to make one with Snowden  on it
> 
> no one mentioning the Turkish leaks with all the women voters names in plain text, phone numbers, addresses?
> 
> good old wikileaks keeping the innocent safe
> 
> VH
> 
> > -------- Original Message --------
> > Subject: Re: Trolling the CIA Like a Boss
> > Local Time: July 16, 2016 2:14 AM
> > UTC Time: July 15, 2016 4:14 PM
> > From: cecilia.tanaka at gmail.com
> > To: cypherpunks at cpunks.org
> >
> > On Jul 15, 2016 12:00 PM, "Rayzer" <rayzer at riseup.net> wrote:
> > >
> > > He DOES know how to charm the media....
> >
> > Yep, so much charm...  ;)
> >
> > http://9gag.com/gag/a44bPMA
> >
> > And you can use it to avoid rapes too.  It certainly will kill any healthy libido, aff...  Uglier than elephant underwear for men!  (>_<) ugh!!! 
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From jnn at synfin.org  Mon Aug  1 10:24:11 2016
From: jnn at synfin.org (John)
Date: Mon, 01 Aug 2016 13:24:11 -0400
Subject: Happy 4 July!!!
In-Reply-To: <20160731100231.GJ17721@x220-a02>
References: <CAD2Ti28bM9BKQXXgdQnYFR1hjOoaSpMYONir3ELfJf_=jf5TGg@mail.gmail.com>
 <20160731100231.GJ17721@x220-a02>
Message-ID: <C951BC45-40D0-40A8-9BCE-5454559AAE9C@synfin.org>

This has been a fucked up problem for a long time. It's so absurd almost beyond belief. But then, so is the whole "war on drugs" .... How do you declare war on yourself...

John

On July 31, 2016 6:02:31 AM EDT, Zenaan Harkness <zen at freedbms.net> wrote:
>On Fri, Jul 29, 2016 at 02:30:33AM -0400, grarpamp wrote:
>> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3kEpZWGgJks
>> 
>> Last Week Tonight with John Oliver: Civil Forfeiture (HBO)
>
>If any USA citizen -still- happens to be waiting for an excuse to know,
>without any shadow of a doubt, that their own government 'organs' are
>corrupt to the core, this is it.
>
>This is incredible. Even worse than here in Australia - although our
>"law enforcement" departments are running hard for the fascist
>arseholes
>crown...

-- 
Sent from my Android device with K-9 Mail. Please excuse my brevity.
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From rayzer at riseup.net  Mon Aug  1 18:37:21 2016
From: rayzer at riseup.net (Rayzer)
Date: Mon, 1 Aug 2016 18:37:21 -0700
Subject: metro
In-Reply-To: <CAGRDzQX6+t_1YULw0RJLYPGQ5O5ZzgjO2+woWFnaiNC6aUpBOw@mail.gmail.com>
References: <2015546.nOQYkiYmFU@lapuntu>
 <579fcf90.ca66370a.5f2a9.6389@mx.google.com>
 <CAG2tMp64-qnr_7OHNLoS8XgyT0MgsoUG4n3Pvu3qMhBT3F=XCQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <579fdc47.8da4370a.de543.cf43@mx.google.com>
 <CAGRDzQX6+t_1YULw0RJLYPGQ5O5ZzgjO2+woWFnaiNC6aUpBOw@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <d449a1ab-1dd2-f28a-c50d-8cf3c412cb2f@riseup.net>

On 08/01/2016 05:33 PM, Cari Machet wrote:
>
> Yes lets hear about your thoughts on tor project rysiek
>
>

Tell them Rysiek.

ALL Cyber-security measures come with a 'taillight warranty'...
expressed AND implied.

Rr

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From cecilia.tanaka at gmail.com  Mon Aug  1 14:44:27 2016
From: cecilia.tanaka at gmail.com (Cecilia Tanaka)
Date: Mon, 1 Aug 2016 18:44:27 -0300
Subject: Scanning the Dark Web with Python (was Re: cypherpunks Digest,
 Vol 37, Issue 101)
In-Reply-To: <5e330b2c-7f84-f0ef-9c03-44a016ca6b2f@gmail.com>
References: <CAG2tMp4t=8PNcXTj06caT5_0bJRpnxcDjcksL8NbzU7q6rZY3g@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAG2tMp4RxHVWThdGP_SyzsYFk9=Q0aRZN4x0Dcdti_L+qQORyA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAG2tMp4EZD5LWgTx9YT1+GQK-5Tk+gkALtHETYSpaOGMaupZ_A@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAG2tMp7a3gauiLfFrZH0NsWS5HSkTd9GtfUJEj3ns676FMKbAg@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAG2tMp4PDhKbyrBPE1hySp64A2Umwimih++drKOev6w2JaQi0w@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAG2tMp6JzSx7zJWmdpQmOn4GhaeiUtBVrCLmFnyKcvA0WGODrg@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAG2tMp4Xy20820xJumg6HJXh8cCnEOJGzGjttw06Qu1GeePysQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAG2tMp6RCD6zms_rK=V=nheo1-aRKp0xKVDHVUSF6KWVsoE_zQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <5e330b2c-7f84-f0ef-9c03-44a016ca6b2f@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAG2tMp6Wxyrd7K4NQ5CvMSR6SLQGegAT0FQLZL_zWQJeqYOmrw@mail.gmail.com>

Hi, Justin!  :D

Thank you very much for the nice answers!  :D

Sorry for being late, dear.  Dramatic days, full of fury and sound, oh!  I
needed a dramatic pause for being coherent, haha!!  ;)

I loved Flipchan's message, but I don't feel secure enough for being
creative or audacious when coding yet, sorry.  I am so disastrous that,
someday, I probably will summon Cthulhu while trying to learn Python
decently, uh!  Fear!  :-/

Thank you again!  Take care, keep coding and be happy.  And if need
something in case of eventual Brazilian crazy doubts or Cthulhu attacks,
I'll be here, ok?  :)

Ceci
On Jul 29, 2016 9:57 AM, "Justin Seitz" <justin.seitz at gmail.com> wrote:

> Hey Ceci!
>
> No worries at all.
>
> You could do a multi-threaded curl process for sure, but I wanted to have
> everything including the logic of handling newly discovered onions, when to
> get a new Tor identity, and storing the data all to be handled so that you
> can just run the script and walk away from it.
>
> Like many things in coding, you can do it a million different ways for
> sure!
>
> Happy to answer any other questions you guys might have :)
>
> Justin
>
> On 2016-07-28 7:47 PM, Cecilia Tanaka wrote:
>
> Whoops, my bad!  Wrong email address.  Sorry everybody, Justin included!
> :P
> On Jul 28, 2016 10:34 PM, "Cecilia Tanaka" <cecilia.tanaka at gmail.com>
> wrote:
>
>> Hi, Justin!  Hope you are doing fine!  :)
>>
>> I liked your project a lot and forwarded the message you had originally
>> sent to the list "Data Driven Journalism and Open Data in Journalism" to
>> two different lists.
>>
>> A Brazilian guy wants to talk with you about the project.  He contacted
>> me and I asked to talk directly to you.  And, well, Flipchan sent this cute
>> message now:
>>
>> ===
>> On Jul 28, 2016 9:45 PM, "Flipchan" <flipchan at riseup.net> wrote:
>> >
>> > Cant u scan tor in a simplier way?like generating .onion addresses then
>> curl(ing) them with multiple threads in py?:)
>> ===
>>
>> Sorry, my programming is still a shame, even worst than my English.
>> Please, may you answer to the questions?  I am curious and will forward
>> your answer to Python Brazil list too!  :)
>>
>> Thank you very much!  Good luck and success!  <3
>>
>> Ceci
>>
>
> --
> Principal Consultant
> Dark River Systems Inc.
> Saskatoon, SK Canada
> T: (855)-646-7468
> E: justin at automatingosint.com
> @jms_dot_py <https://www.twitter.com/jms_dot_py> |  OSINT Training
> <https://register.automatingosint.com> |  Hunchly <https://www.hunch.ly>
>
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From cecilia.tanaka at gmail.com  Mon Aug  1 15:33:06 2016
From: cecilia.tanaka at gmail.com (Cecilia Tanaka)
Date: Mon, 1 Aug 2016 19:33:06 -0300
Subject: metro
In-Reply-To: <2015546.nOQYkiYmFU@lapuntu>
References: <2015546.nOQYkiYmFU@lapuntu>
Message-ID: <CAG2tMp5CSBa3RO5Hk2BmU6GmTNdpqioXAYvcf6bLuniweyaNhw@mail.gmail.com>

On Aug 1, 2016 5:44 PM, "rysiek" <rysiek at hackerspace.pl> wrote:
>
> Hey,
>
> apparently this is the best way to get the trolls and discourse poisoners
to come out of the woodwork around here.

I am a bit troll, love your hair and your ideas, but,unhappilly, my kung fu
isn't strong enough to annoy you, my dear rysiek.  Muuuaah!  :*
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From juan.g71 at gmail.com  Mon Aug  1 15:43:05 2016
From: juan.g71 at gmail.com (juan)
Date: Mon, 1 Aug 2016 19:43:05 -0300
Subject: metro
In-Reply-To: <2015546.nOQYkiYmFU@lapuntu>
References: <2015546.nOQYkiYmFU@lapuntu>
Message-ID: <579fcf90.ca66370a.5f2a9.6389@mx.google.com>

On Mon, 01 Aug 2016 22:36:15 +0200
rysiek <rysiek at hackerspace.pl> wrote:

> Hey,
> 
> apparently this is the best way to get the trolls and discourse
> poisoners to come out of the woodwork around here. 


	Look, it's rysiek! Hi rysiek!

	Have you heard the latest news about your beloved tor project?
	Those people are really something eh.

	I think this 'community' of 'cypherpunks' would profit greatly
	by hearing your testimony, praise and explanation of your blind
	trust and faith in the tor supreme humanitarians.

	




So hell, why not.
> Here's some code, have funzies:
> https://git.occrp.org/libre/metro
> 
> tl;dr setting up IPsec is a pain in the arse, so by the power of way
> too many lines of Bash it has been made simpler. Comments, pull
> requests, criticism welcome.
> 





From rayzer at riseup.net  Mon Aug  1 20:02:36 2016
From: rayzer at riseup.net (Rayzer)
Date: Mon, 1 Aug 2016 20:02:36 -0700
Subject: metro
In-Reply-To: <20160802022402.GA2732@x220-a02>
References: <2015546.nOQYkiYmFU@lapuntu>
 <579fcf90.ca66370a.5f2a9.6389@mx.google.com>
 <CAG2tMp64-qnr_7OHNLoS8XgyT0MgsoUG4n3Pvu3qMhBT3F=XCQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <579fdc47.8da4370a.de543.cf43@mx.google.com>
 <CAGRDzQX6+t_1YULw0RJLYPGQ5O5ZzgjO2+woWFnaiNC6aUpBOw@mail.gmail.com>
 <d449a1ab-1dd2-f28a-c50d-8cf3c412cb2f@riseup.net>
 <20160802022402.GA2732@x220-a02>
Message-ID: <0fe2cbab-7bf9-9e93-0e02-6ecfe3f510c7@riseup.net>



On 08/01/2016 07:24 PM, Zenaan Harkness wrote:
> On Mon, Aug 01, 2016 at 06:37:21PM -0700, Rayzer wrote:
>> On 08/01/2016 05:33 PM, Cari Machet wrote:
>>> Yes lets hear about your thoughts on tor project rysiek
>> Tell them Rysiek.
>>
>> ALL Cyber-security measures come with a 'taillight warranty'...
>> expressed AND implied.
> Jokes aside Rysiek, your view on the Tor project 'challenges' occurring
> at the moment would be appreciated if you can spare a moment...
>

Why do you think I was joking?

Rr

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From cecilia.tanaka at gmail.com  Mon Aug  1 16:13:12 2016
From: cecilia.tanaka at gmail.com (Cecilia Tanaka)
Date: Mon, 1 Aug 2016 20:13:12 -0300
Subject: Deconstructing an Institutional Slander operation: @ioerror et
 al...
In-Reply-To: <579e87bd.c124c80a.0b33.2d53@mx.google.com>
References: <4579aed2-1c44-553d-d37a-df440042166d@riseup.net>
 <CAG2tMp6M0iteb=5ADDMxy1Ex8cAYZNNr_AbYMLQMKTt_t3L5bA@mail.gmail.com>
 <579a62f6.ef24ed0a.805c6.9090@mx.google.com>
 <CAG2tMp4H8KSZVS75DqSaYw0omZ32_396J5AevqLqMbNpduP2ig@mail.gmail.com>
 <579a74a9.57a5370a.44210.a0e0@mx.google.com>
 <CAG2tMp6VMy4zWpmutTswZL5_iMkCa2jBsTpS=uFK4hWx-AnpTw@mail.gmail.com>
 <579bf47b.8d2a370a.c27ce.d1da@mx.google.com>
 <0a5bbe20-a784-7be5-7367-3318558289dd@riseup.net>
 <CAG2tMp6jgVKyWtT2fdTBfbt436O1Ms4adB=K5NnQ1uDup1hU6A@mail.gmail.com>
 <579e87bd.c124c80a.0b33.2d53@mx.google.com>
Message-ID: <CAG2tMp7TzXx3xfnw-BhFNKkBOs2jz-RtbbEQ-nPVCyU7UL9Kbg@mail.gmail.com>

On Jul 31, 2016 8:28 PM, "juan" <juan.g71 at gmail.com> wrote:
>
>         So, for people who don't speak spanish : "mal cogida/o" roughly
means "not well fucked", and the idea is that a person who doesn't have
enough sex is whinny and grumpy. Is there an equivalent english
word/expression?

I would like to learn it in English too, please.  "Mal cogida/o" is a very
funny expression and we have two versions of this in Portuguese, one more
'romantical'  ("not well loved")  and other exactly like the 'rough'
version  ("not well f...ed").  There are versions in Italian, including
some dialets, too!  :)

>         (ps: Cecilia, I would never dare to call you mal cogida =P )

Nah, I swear I don't care, Juan.  You can call me 'mal cogida' all the
times you want, because I probably will call you 'mal cogido' a lot of
times in the future yet, hahaha!!  ;D

We know it isn't true, dear.  Our governments fuck us _very well_ all the
days, with no lube, no tenderness and no orgasms, uh!  :((

I am late with a lot of private and public answers.  Uff...  A bit more of
time, please.  :(
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From cecilia.tanaka at gmail.com  Mon Aug  1 16:15:07 2016
From: cecilia.tanaka at gmail.com (Cecilia Tanaka)
Date: Mon, 1 Aug 2016 20:15:07 -0300
Subject: metro
In-Reply-To: <579fcf90.ca66370a.5f2a9.6389@mx.google.com>
References: <2015546.nOQYkiYmFU@lapuntu>
 <579fcf90.ca66370a.5f2a9.6389@mx.google.com>
Message-ID: <CAG2tMp64-qnr_7OHNLoS8XgyT0MgsoUG4n3Pvu3qMhBT3F=XCQ@mail.gmail.com>

On Aug 1, 2016 7:46 PM, "juan" <juan.g71 at gmail.com> wrote:
>
> On Mon, 01 Aug 2016 22:36:15 +0200
> rysiek <rysiek at hackerspace.pl> wrote:
>
> > Hey,
> >
> > apparently this is the best way to get the trolls and discourse
poisoners to come out of the woodwork around here.
>
>
>         Look, it's rysiek! Hi rysiek!
>
>         Have you heard the latest news about your beloved tor project?
Those people are really something eh.
>
>         I think this 'community' of 'cypherpunks' would profit greatly by
hearing your testimony, praise and explanation of your blind trust and
faith in the tor supreme humanitarians.

Wow!!!  I don't know about metro's code yet, but rysiek's method for summon
the trolls works well!  :D

(ok, I am late, but it was cute and I needed another pause, hihi...)
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From rayzer at riseup.net  Mon Aug  1 20:16:32 2016
From: rayzer at riseup.net (Rayzer)
Date: Mon, 1 Aug 2016 20:16:32 -0700
Subject: metro
In-Reply-To: <20160802022402.GA2732@x220-a02>
References: <2015546.nOQYkiYmFU@lapuntu>
 <579fcf90.ca66370a.5f2a9.6389@mx.google.com>
 <CAG2tMp64-qnr_7OHNLoS8XgyT0MgsoUG4n3Pvu3qMhBT3F=XCQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <579fdc47.8da4370a.de543.cf43@mx.google.com>
 <CAGRDzQX6+t_1YULw0RJLYPGQ5O5ZzgjO2+woWFnaiNC6aUpBOw@mail.gmail.com>
 <d449a1ab-1dd2-f28a-c50d-8cf3c412cb2f@riseup.net>
 <20160802022402.GA2732@x220-a02>
Message-ID: <4aa4adcb-8c82-ddb6-2846-1267049f17bc@riseup.net>



On 08/01/2016 07:24 PM, Zenaan Harkness wrote:
> On Mon, Aug 01, 2016 at 06:37:21PM -0700, Rayzer wrote:
>> On 08/01/2016 05:33 PM, Cari Machet wrote:
>>> Yes lets hear about your thoughts on tor project rysiek
>> Tell them Rysiek.
>>
>> ALL Cyber-security measures come with a 'taillight warranty'...
>> expressed AND implied.
> Jokes aside Rysiek, your view on the Tor project 'challenges' occurring
> at the moment would be appreciated if you can spare a moment...
>


Really! Do you need a technical fucking explanation what "Taillight
Warranty" means?

It MEANS (in this context) when you're doing something that might
collapse a government or on the run for any number of reasons from a
global superpower you CANNOT COUNT ON ANYTHING except your own judgment
and wits for your survival. Your own fucking mother might sell you out
no less torproject's s/w, or anything else.

Rr



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From juan.g71 at gmail.com  Mon Aug  1 16:37:26 2016
From: juan.g71 at gmail.com (juan)
Date: Mon, 1 Aug 2016 20:37:26 -0300
Subject: metro
In-Reply-To: <CAG2tMp64-qnr_7OHNLoS8XgyT0MgsoUG4n3Pvu3qMhBT3F=XCQ@mail.gmail.com>
References: <2015546.nOQYkiYmFU@lapuntu>
 <579fcf90.ca66370a.5f2a9.6389@mx.google.com>
 <CAG2tMp64-qnr_7OHNLoS8XgyT0MgsoUG4n3Pvu3qMhBT3F=XCQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <579fdc47.8da4370a.de543.cf43@mx.google.com>

On Mon, 1 Aug 2016 20:15:07 -0300
Cecilia Tanaka <cecilia.tanaka at gmail.com> wrote:

> On Aug 1, 2016 7:46 PM, "juan" <juan.g71 at gmail.com> wrote:
> >
> > On Mon, 01 Aug 2016 22:36:15 +0200
> > rysiek <rysiek at hackerspace.pl> wrote:
> >
> > > Hey,
> > >
> > > apparently this is the best way to get the trolls and discourse
> poisoners to come out of the woodwork around here.
> >
> >
> >         Look, it's rysiek! Hi rysiek!
> >
> >         Have you heard the latest news about your beloved tor
> > project?
> Those people are really something eh.
> >
> >         I think this 'community' of 'cypherpunks' would profit
> > greatly by
> hearing your testimony, praise and explanation of your blind trust and
> faith in the tor supreme humanitarians.
> 
> Wow!!!  I don't know about metro's code yet, but rysiek's method for
> summon the trolls works well!  :D


	Are you talking about yourself? =)

	Or about rysiek? I mean, what can be more trolling than a
	pentagon apologist* and state apologist* in an allegedly
	'cypherpunk' mailing list?


*like rysiek
*like rysiek


	So go ahead guys, let's hear about tor, bruce schneider, your
	amazing 'coding' that's causing the state to crash down before
	our very eyes! 









> (ok, I am late, but it was cute and I needed another pause, hihi...)





From rayzer at riseup.net  Mon Aug  1 20:50:12 2016
From: rayzer at riseup.net (Rayzer)
Date: Mon, 1 Aug 2016 20:50:12 -0700
Subject: metro
In-Reply-To: <57a0118d.e217370a.9e780.1368@mx.google.com>
References: <2015546.nOQYkiYmFU@lapuntu>
 <579fcf90.ca66370a.5f2a9.6389@mx.google.com>
 <CAG2tMp64-qnr_7OHNLoS8XgyT0MgsoUG4n3Pvu3qMhBT3F=XCQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <579fdc47.8da4370a.de543.cf43@mx.google.com>
 <CAGRDzQX6+t_1YULw0RJLYPGQ5O5ZzgjO2+woWFnaiNC6aUpBOw@mail.gmail.com>
 <d449a1ab-1dd2-f28a-c50d-8cf3c412cb2f@riseup.net>
 <20160802022402.GA2732@x220-a02>
 <0fe2cbab-7bf9-9e93-0e02-6ecfe3f510c7@riseup.net>
 <57a0118d.e217370a.9e780.1368@mx.google.com>
Message-ID: <847e244a-e7ce-768e-7685-26227365b0c0@riseup.net>



On 08/01/2016 08:24 PM, juan wrote:
> On Mon, 1 Aug 2016 20:02:36 -0700
> Rayzer <rayzer at riseup.net> wrote:
>
>>
>> On 08/01/2016 07:24 PM, Zenaan Harkness wrote:
>>> On Mon, Aug 01, 2016 at 06:37:21PM -0700, Rayzer wrote:
>>>> On 08/01/2016 05:33 PM, Cari Machet wrote:
>>>>> Yes lets hear about your thoughts on tor project rysiek
>>>> Tell them Rysiek.
>>>>
>>>> ALL Cyber-security measures come with a 'taillight warranty'...
>>>> expressed AND implied.
>>> Jokes aside Rysiek, your view on the Tor project 'challenges'
>>> occurring at the moment would be appreciated if you can spare a
>>> moment...
>>>
>> Why do you think I was joking?
>
> 	Is your nickname rysiek?
>
>

Fuck off  troll.

>
>
>
>> Rr
>>
>


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From rayzer at riseup.net  Mon Aug  1 20:52:02 2016
From: rayzer at riseup.net (Rayzer)
Date: Mon, 1 Aug 2016 20:52:02 -0700
Subject: metro
In-Reply-To: <57a013cd.0435c80a.4b327.12ec@mx.google.com>
References: <2015546.nOQYkiYmFU@lapuntu>
 <579fcf90.ca66370a.5f2a9.6389@mx.google.com>
 <CAG2tMp64-qnr_7OHNLoS8XgyT0MgsoUG4n3Pvu3qMhBT3F=XCQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <579fdc47.8da4370a.de543.cf43@mx.google.com>
 <CAGRDzQX6+t_1YULw0RJLYPGQ5O5ZzgjO2+woWFnaiNC6aUpBOw@mail.gmail.com>
 <d449a1ab-1dd2-f28a-c50d-8cf3c412cb2f@riseup.net>
 <20160802022402.GA2732@x220-a02>
 <4aa4adcb-8c82-ddb6-2846-1267049f17bc@riseup.net>
 <57a013cd.0435c80a.4b327.12ec@mx.google.com>
Message-ID: <e4857361-ad87-6f77-1154-fbc852cab92c@riseup.net>



On 08/01/2016 08:34 PM, juan wrote:
> On Mon, 1 Aug 2016 20:16:32 -0700
> Rayzer <rayzer at riseup.net> wrote:
>
>>
>> On 08/01/2016 07:24 PM, Zenaan Harkness wrote:
>>> On Mon, Aug 01, 2016 at 06:37:21PM -0700, Rayzer wrote:
>>>> On 08/01/2016 05:33 PM, Cari Machet wrote:
>>>>> Yes lets hear about your thoughts on tor project rysiek
>>>> Tell them Rysiek.
>>>>
>>>> ALL Cyber-security measures come with a 'taillight warranty'...
>>>> expressed AND implied.
>>> Jokes aside Rysiek, your view on the Tor project 'challenges'
>>> occurring at the moment would be appreciated if you can spare a
>>> moment...
>>>
>>
>> Really! Do you need a technical fucking explanation what "Taillight
>> Warranty" means?
>
> 	Boy is RAYZER retarded. Zen's post was addressed to RYSIEK, not
> 	you RAYZER.
>
> 	RAYZER, can't you even recognize your own fucking nickname?
>



Fuck off troll (I'm going to automate this message to avoid wasting my
time typing it)




>
>> It MEANS (in this context) when you're doing something that might
>> collapse a government or on the run for any number of reasons from a
>> global superpower you CANNOT COUNT ON ANYTHING except your own
>> judgment and wits for your survival. Your own fucking mother might
>> sell you out no less torproject's s/w, or anything else.
>>
>> Rr
>>
>>
>>
>


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From rysiek at hackerspace.pl  Mon Aug  1 13:36:15 2016
From: rysiek at hackerspace.pl (rysiek)
Date: Mon, 01 Aug 2016 22:36:15 +0200
Subject: metro
Message-ID: <2015546.nOQYkiYmFU@lapuntu>

Hey,

apparently this is the best way to get the trolls and discourse poisoners to 
come out of the woodwork around here. So hell, why not. Here's some code, have 
funzies:
https://git.occrp.org/libre/metro

tl;dr setting up IPsec is a pain in the arse, so by the power of way too many 
lines of Bash it has been made simpler. Comments, pull requests, criticism 
welcome.

-- 
Pozdrawiam,
Michał "rysiek" Woźniak

Zmieniam klucz GPG :: http://rys.io/pl/147
GPG Key Transition :: http://rys.io/en/147
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From rysiek at hackerspace.pl  Mon Aug  1 14:06:26 2016
From: rysiek at hackerspace.pl (rysiek)
Date: Mon, 01 Aug 2016 23:06:26 +0200
Subject: Cloudflare reCAPTCHA De-anonymizes Tor Users
In-Reply-To: <CAD2Ti2-Byh-dUR+=F_ba3GW8PNAEKnR6v2vUg5asf_CYydLTug@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAD2Ti2-Byh-dUR+=F_ba3GW8PNAEKnR6v2vUg5asf_CYydLTug@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <3301826.flyzO2TyaD@lapuntu>

Dnia wtorek, 19 lipca 2016 05:42:17 CEST grarpamp pisze:
> Each click on one of the images in the puzzle generates a total of
> about 50 packets between Tor user's computer and the Cloudflare's
> server (about half are requests and half are real-time responses from
> the server.)

Hummm, but what if JS is turned off (is anyone using Tor with JS turned on?). 
Not defending CloudFlare here (not a fan of centralised services like this), 
just wondering.

In fact, just tested it in the Tor Browser with JS disabled (as it is by 
default). No traffic was generated upon clicking on images -- only after 
hitting "submit".

Not much better, but a bit better nonetheless, I guess.

-- 
Pozdrawiam,
Michał "rysiek" Woźniak

Zmieniam klucz GPG :: http://rys.io/pl/147
GPG Key Transition :: http://rys.io/en/147
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From grarpamp at gmail.com  Mon Aug  1 21:16:13 2016
From: grarpamp at gmail.com (grarpamp)
Date: Tue, 2 Aug 2016 00:16:13 -0400
Subject: metro
In-Reply-To: <2015546.nOQYkiYmFU@lapuntu>
References: <2015546.nOQYkiYmFU@lapuntu>
Message-ID: <CAD2Ti29t5pGusV3skD9diGdMv3LEj+Q8DY0CUUB86jovezbnKA@mail.gmail.com>

On 8/1/16, rysiek <rysiek at hackerspace.pl> wrote:
> lines of Bash it has been made simpler. Comments, pull requests, criticism
> welcome.

It's not posix sh(1) compatible, nor appear need any bashism.
there function is (), source is . , == isn't, [[ is deprecated,
which is then bash too.
Intermixes standard $() and lazy backquotes.
Don't tell people to consider running backquotes, because they will ;)

http://pubs.opengroup.org/onlinepubs/9699919799/utilities/sh.html
http://pubs.opengroup.org/onlinepubs/9699919799/utilities/V3_chap02.html
http://pubs.opengroup.org/onlinepubs/9699919799/utilities/test.html




From juan.g71 at gmail.com  Mon Aug  1 20:24:44 2016
From: juan.g71 at gmail.com (juan)
Date: Tue, 2 Aug 2016 00:24:44 -0300
Subject: metro
In-Reply-To: <0fe2cbab-7bf9-9e93-0e02-6ecfe3f510c7@riseup.net>
References: <2015546.nOQYkiYmFU@lapuntu>
 <579fcf90.ca66370a.5f2a9.6389@mx.google.com>
 <CAG2tMp64-qnr_7OHNLoS8XgyT0MgsoUG4n3Pvu3qMhBT3F=XCQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <579fdc47.8da4370a.de543.cf43@mx.google.com>
 <CAGRDzQX6+t_1YULw0RJLYPGQ5O5ZzgjO2+woWFnaiNC6aUpBOw@mail.gmail.com>
 <d449a1ab-1dd2-f28a-c50d-8cf3c412cb2f@riseup.net>
 <20160802022402.GA2732@x220-a02>
 <0fe2cbab-7bf9-9e93-0e02-6ecfe3f510c7@riseup.net>
Message-ID: <57a0118d.e217370a.9e780.1368@mx.google.com>

On Mon, 1 Aug 2016 20:02:36 -0700
Rayzer <rayzer at riseup.net> wrote:

> 
> 
> On 08/01/2016 07:24 PM, Zenaan Harkness wrote:
> > On Mon, Aug 01, 2016 at 06:37:21PM -0700, Rayzer wrote:
> >> On 08/01/2016 05:33 PM, Cari Machet wrote:
> >>> Yes lets hear about your thoughts on tor project rysiek
> >> Tell them Rysiek.
> >>
> >> ALL Cyber-security measures come with a 'taillight warranty'...
> >> expressed AND implied.
> > Jokes aside Rysiek, your view on the Tor project 'challenges'
> > occurring at the moment would be appreciated if you can spare a
> > moment...
> >
> 
> Why do you think I was joking?


	Is your nickname rysiek?






> 
> Rr
> 





From grarpamp at gmail.com  Mon Aug  1 21:33:13 2016
From: grarpamp at gmail.com (grarpamp)
Date: Tue, 2 Aug 2016 00:33:13 -0400
Subject: Misc I2P / Tor
Message-ID: <CAD2Ti2_9U_9dGt5yoZP79c-9nuXHX19zsa9Eq7nsMPRf0g9b8g@mail.gmail.com>

https://bits.debian.org/2016/08/debian-and-tor-services-available-as-onion-services.html
https://www.reddit.com/r/TOR/comments/4vifde/does_shari_steeles_husband_work_for_the_nsa/
https://geti2p.net/en/blog/post/2016/07/02/Summer-Dev-roundup-APIs
HOPE XI Onion Uses
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VmsFxBEN3fc




From juan.g71 at gmail.com  Mon Aug  1 20:34:17 2016
From: juan.g71 at gmail.com (juan)
Date: Tue, 2 Aug 2016 00:34:17 -0300
Subject: metro
In-Reply-To: <4aa4adcb-8c82-ddb6-2846-1267049f17bc@riseup.net>
References: <2015546.nOQYkiYmFU@lapuntu>
 <579fcf90.ca66370a.5f2a9.6389@mx.google.com>
 <CAG2tMp64-qnr_7OHNLoS8XgyT0MgsoUG4n3Pvu3qMhBT3F=XCQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <579fdc47.8da4370a.de543.cf43@mx.google.com>
 <CAGRDzQX6+t_1YULw0RJLYPGQ5O5ZzgjO2+woWFnaiNC6aUpBOw@mail.gmail.com>
 <d449a1ab-1dd2-f28a-c50d-8cf3c412cb2f@riseup.net>
 <20160802022402.GA2732@x220-a02>
 <4aa4adcb-8c82-ddb6-2846-1267049f17bc@riseup.net>
Message-ID: <57a013cd.0435c80a.4b327.12ec@mx.google.com>

On Mon, 1 Aug 2016 20:16:32 -0700
Rayzer <rayzer at riseup.net> wrote:

> 
> 
> On 08/01/2016 07:24 PM, Zenaan Harkness wrote:
> > On Mon, Aug 01, 2016 at 06:37:21PM -0700, Rayzer wrote:
> >> On 08/01/2016 05:33 PM, Cari Machet wrote:
> >>> Yes lets hear about your thoughts on tor project rysiek
> >> Tell them Rysiek.
> >>
> >> ALL Cyber-security measures come with a 'taillight warranty'...
> >> expressed AND implied.
> > Jokes aside Rysiek, your view on the Tor project 'challenges'
> > occurring at the moment would be appreciated if you can spare a
> > moment...
> >
> 
> 
> Really! Do you need a technical fucking explanation what "Taillight
> Warranty" means?


	Boy is RAYZER retarded. Zen's post was addressed to RYSIEK, not
	you RAYZER.

	RAYZER, can't you even recognize your own fucking nickname?



> 
> It MEANS (in this context) when you're doing something that might
> collapse a government or on the run for any number of reasons from a
> global superpower you CANNOT COUNT ON ANYTHING except your own
> judgment and wits for your survival. Your own fucking mother might
> sell you out no less torproject's s/w, or anything else.
> 
> Rr
> 
> 
> 





From rysiek at hackerspace.pl  Mon Aug  1 16:15:28 2016
From: rysiek at hackerspace.pl (rysiek)
Date: Tue, 02 Aug 2016 01:15:28 +0200
Subject: libsaxolotl
In-Reply-To: <20160725234200.GZ30751@ctrlc.hu>
References: <20160725234200.GZ30751@ctrlc.hu>
Message-ID: <2089018.hpyA7eYgOJ@lapuntu>

Dnia wtorek, 26 lipca 2016 01:42:00 CEST stef pisze:
> howdy,
> 
> for those not sabotaging this list with noise, but wanting to hack on/with
> some crypto you might find this implementation of the axolotl protocol
> using nacl/libsodium entertaining: https://github.com/stef/libsaxolotl

Mmmmm...

Now I am tempted to start writing a multi-proto communicator that would do 
Tox, Axolotl, and anything else one can put there. Damn.

If I were to embark on such a journey, which protos should I consider?

inb4 "extend libpurple": nope.

-- 
Pozdrawiam,
Michał "rysiek" Woźniak

Zmieniam klucz GPG :: http://rys.io/pl/147
GPG Key Transition :: http://rys.io/en/147
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From jnn at synfin.org  Mon Aug  1 22:58:24 2016
From: jnn at synfin.org (John)
Date: Tue, 02 Aug 2016 01:58:24 -0400
Subject: metro
In-Reply-To: <CAD2Ti29t5pGusV3skD9diGdMv3LEj+Q8DY0CUUB86jovezbnKA@mail.gmail.com>
References: <2015546.nOQYkiYmFU@lapuntu>
 <CAD2Ti29t5pGusV3skD9diGdMv3LEj+Q8DY0CUUB86jovezbnKA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <4126C42C-A9A1-491D-AC86-2BD75370631D@synfin.org>



On August 2, 2016 12:16:13 AM EDT, grarpamp <grarpamp at gmail.com> wrote:
>On 8/1/16, rysiek <rysiek at hackerspace.pl> wrote:
>> lines of Bash it has been made simpler. Comments, pull requests,
>criticism
>> welcome.
>
>It's not posix sh(1) compatible, nor appear need any bashism.
>there function is (), source is . , == isn't, [[ is deprecated,
>which is then bash too.
>Intermixes standard $() and lazy backquotes.
>Don't tell people to consider running backquotes, because they will ;)
>

In the days of Linux and /bin/sh being a link to bash who needs posix sh(1) compatibility ..?

I'm joking of course. Embedded devices don't always have the luxury, and the BSDs still have an actual Bourne shell without all the bashisms (it's picked up a couple but mainly just better keyboard handling).


John

-- 
Sent from my Android device with K-9 Mail. Please excuse my brevity.




From carimachet at gmail.com  Mon Aug  1 17:33:45 2016
From: carimachet at gmail.com (Cari Machet)
Date: Tue, 2 Aug 2016 02:33:45 +0200
Subject: metro
In-Reply-To: <579fdc47.8da4370a.de543.cf43@mx.google.com>
References: <2015546.nOQYkiYmFU@lapuntu>
 <579fcf90.ca66370a.5f2a9.6389@mx.google.com>
 <CAG2tMp64-qnr_7OHNLoS8XgyT0MgsoUG4n3Pvu3qMhBT3F=XCQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <579fdc47.8da4370a.de543.cf43@mx.google.com>
Message-ID: <CAGRDzQX6+t_1YULw0RJLYPGQ5O5ZzgjO2+woWFnaiNC6aUpBOw@mail.gmail.com>

Yes lets hear about your thoughts on tor project rysiek

On Aug 2, 2016 2:41 AM, "juan" <juan.g71 at gmail.com> wrote:

> On Mon, 1 Aug 2016 20:15:07 -0300
> Cecilia Tanaka <cecilia.tanaka at gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > On Aug 1, 2016 7:46 PM, "juan" <juan.g71 at gmail.com> wrote:
> > >
> > > On Mon, 01 Aug 2016 22:36:15 +0200
> > > rysiek <rysiek at hackerspace.pl> wrote:
> > >
> > > > Hey,
> > > >
> > > > apparently this is the best way to get the trolls and discourse
> > poisoners to come out of the woodwork around here.
> > >
> > >
> > >         Look, it's rysiek! Hi rysiek!
> > >
> > >         Have you heard the latest news about your beloved tor
> > > project?
> > Those people are really something eh.
> > >
> > >         I think this 'community' of 'cypherpunks' would profit
> > > greatly by
> > hearing your testimony, praise and explanation of your blind trust and
> > faith in the tor supreme humanitarians.
> >
> > Wow!!!  I don't know about metro's code yet, but rysiek's method for
> > summon the trolls works well!  :D
>
>
>         Are you talking about yourself? =)
>
>         Or about rysiek? I mean, what can be more trolling than a
>         pentagon apologist* and state apologist* in an allegedly
>         'cypherpunk' mailing list?
>
>
> *like rysiek
> *like rysiek
>
>
>         So go ahead guys, let's hear about tor, bruce schneider, your
>         amazing 'coding' that's causing the state to crash down before
>         our very eyes!
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> > (ok, I am late, but it was cute and I needed another pause, hihi...)
>
>
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From cecilia.tanaka at gmail.com  Mon Aug  1 23:13:12 2016
From: cecilia.tanaka at gmail.com (Cecilia Tanaka)
Date: Tue, 2 Aug 2016 03:13:12 -0300
Subject: Scanning the Dark Web with Python (was Re: cypherpunks Digest,
 Vol 37, Issue 101)
In-Reply-To: <1218031470117021@web14h.yandex.ru>
References: <CAG2tMp4t=8PNcXTj06caT5_0bJRpnxcDjcksL8NbzU7q6rZY3g@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAG2tMp4RxHVWThdGP_SyzsYFk9=Q0aRZN4x0Dcdti_L+qQORyA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAG2tMp4EZD5LWgTx9YT1+GQK-5Tk+gkALtHETYSpaOGMaupZ_A@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAG2tMp7a3gauiLfFrZH0NsWS5HSkTd9GtfUJEj3ns676FMKbAg@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAG2tMp4PDhKbyrBPE1hySp64A2Umwimih++drKOev6w2JaQi0w@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAG2tMp6JzSx7zJWmdpQmOn4GhaeiUtBVrCLmFnyKcvA0WGODrg@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAG2tMp4Xy20820xJumg6HJXh8cCnEOJGzGjttw06Qu1GeePysQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAG2tMp6RCD6zms_rK=V=nheo1-aRKp0xKVDHVUSF6KWVsoE_zQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <5e330b2c-7f84-f0ef-9c03-44a016ca6b2f@gmail.com>
 <CAG2tMp6Wxyrd7K4NQ5CvMSR6SLQGegAT0FQLZL_zWQJeqYOmrw@mail.gmail.com>
 <1218031470117021@web14h.yandex.ru>
Message-ID: <CAG2tMp77qWKXHS6eF1wyJWer=qRo_k8uY-A54XEC_zwWU_Hk_A@mail.gmail.com>

No, in case of Cthulhu attacks, you can call me too.  Monsters always love
lawyers.  Professional courtesy, dear!  :)

I think Justin will receive more Brazilian crazy doubts than us, because I
shared this project.  Hmm, need to do the same with rysiek's project too.
:P

I wrote 1/3 of an answer to you about time management in case of studies
and projects, talking about Pomodoro and other methods.  I am horrible with
scheduling.  I need to answer to, at least, five private messages from
people here and I think they will kick me soon, but their answers are 3/4
ready only.  Or a little less, uh!  :P

Well, if my answer becomes too bizarre, I will send it in private.  Kisses,
take care!  :*
On Aug 2, 2016 2:50 AM, "Bastiani Fortress" <bastianifortress at yandex.com>
wrote:

> Was this also intended for justin only? :D
>
> 12:59 AM, August 2, 2016, Cecilia Tanaka <cecilia.tanaka at gmail.com>:
>
> Hi, Justin!  :D
> Thank you very much for the nice answers!  :D
> Sorry for being late, dear.  Dramatic days, full of fury and sound, oh!  I
> needed a dramatic pause for being coherent, haha!!  ;)
> I loved Flipchan's message, but I don't feel secure enough for being
> creative or audacious when coding yet, sorry.  I am so disastrous that,
> someday, I probably will summon Cthulhu while trying to learn Python
> decently, uh!  Fear!  :-/
> Thank you again!  Take care, keep coding and be happy.  And if need
> something in case of eventual Brazilian crazy doubts or Cthulhu attacks,
> I'll be here, ok?  :)
> Ceci
>
> On Jul 29, 2016 9:57 AM, "Justin Seitz" <justin.seitz at gmail.com> wrote:
>
> Hey Ceci!
> No worries at all.
>
> You could do a multi-threaded curl process for sure, but I wanted to have
> everything including the logic of handling newly discovered onions, when to
> get a new Tor identity, and storing the data all to be handled so that you
> can just run the script and walk away from it.
> Like many things in coding, you can do it a million different ways for
> sure!
> Happy to answer any other questions you guys might have :)
> Justin
>
>
> On 2016-07-28 7:47 PM, Cecilia Tanaka wrote:
>
> Whoops, my bad!  Wrong email address.  Sorry everybody, Justin included!
> :P
> On Jul 28, 2016 10:34 PM, "Cecilia Tanaka" <cecilia.tanaka at gmail.com>
> wrote:
>
> Hi, Justin!  Hope you are doing fine!  :)
> I liked your project a lot and forwarded the message you had originally
> sent to the list "Data Driven Journalism and Open Data in Journalism" to
> two different lists.
> A Brazilian guy wants to talk with you about the project.  He contacted me
> and I asked to talk directly to you.  And, well, Flipchan sent this cute
> message now:
> ===
> On Jul 28, 2016 9:45 PM, "Flipchan" <flipchan at riseup.net> wrote:
> >
> > Cant u scan tor in a simplier way?like generating .onion addresses then
> curl(ing) them with multiple threads in py?:)
> ===
> Sorry, my programming is still a shame, even worst than my English.
> Please, may you answer to the questions?  I am curious and will forward
> your answer to Python Brazil list too!  :)
> Thank you very much!  Good luck and success!  <3
> Ceci
>
>
>
> --
> Principal Consultant
> Dark River Systems Inc.
> Saskatoon, SK Canada
> T: (855)-646-7468
> E: justin at automatingosint.com
> @jms_dot_py |  OSINT Training |  Hunchly
>
>
>
>
> --
> You’re not from the Castle, you’re not from the village, you are nothing.
> Unfortunately, though, you are something, a stranger.
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From mirimir at riseup.net  Tue Aug  2 03:50:53 2016
From: mirimir at riseup.net (Mirimir)
Date: Tue, 2 Aug 2016 04:50:53 -0600
Subject: metro
In-Reply-To: <2015546.nOQYkiYmFU@lapuntu>
References: <2015546.nOQYkiYmFU@lapuntu>
Message-ID: <57A07B0D.9030008@riseup.net>

On 08/01/2016 02:36 PM, rysiek wrote:
> Hey,
> 
> apparently this is the best way to get the trolls and discourse
> poisoners to come out of the woodwork around here. So hell, why
> not. Here's some code, have funzies: 
> https://git.occrp.org/libre/metro

No coming out needed. They're just here. So it goes.

> tl;dr setting up IPsec is a pain in the arse, so by the power of
> way too many lines of Bash it has been made simpler. Comments, pull
> requests, criticism welcome.

I presume that this is a flavor of IPsec that NSA can't pwn. But why
do we need IPsec? What's the advantage over OpenVPN?





From grarpamp at gmail.com  Tue Aug  2 02:02:43 2016
From: grarpamp at gmail.com (grarpamp)
Date: Tue, 2 Aug 2016 05:02:43 -0400
Subject: metro
In-Reply-To: <4126C42C-A9A1-491D-AC86-2BD75370631D@synfin.org>
References: <2015546.nOQYkiYmFU@lapuntu>
 <CAD2Ti29t5pGusV3skD9diGdMv3LEj+Q8DY0CUUB86jovezbnKA@mail.gmail.com>
 <4126C42C-A9A1-491D-AC86-2BD75370631D@synfin.org>
Message-ID: <CAD2Ti29cX-mSrrFinV1yxOdg_Sq5pJx2G6rYdorVZYhZALAknA@mail.gmail.com>

On 8/2/16, John <jnn at synfin.org> wrote:
> In the days of Linux and /bin/sh being a link to bash

Would be worse if link was to csh (freebsd curiously use csh
but only as default interactive root shell). Both defaults indoctrinate
users poorly, at least for forming noninteractive work.

> who needs posix sh(1) compatibility ..?
>
> BSDs still have an actual Bourne shell without all the bashisms (it's picked
> up a couple but mainly just better keyboard handling).

For people serious about shell, cross system, unix, work
they likely encounter, and why things are... at least a quick
one time through the likes of these is in order...

http://www.in-ulm.de/~mascheck/various/ash/
https://www.ict.griffith.edu.au/anthony/info/shell/csh.whynot-1.7.txt
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Comparison_of_command_shells
http://pubs.opengroup.org/onlinepubs/9699919799/utilities/sh.html
http://pubs.opengroup.org/onlinepubs/9699919799/utilities/V3_chap02.html
http://pubs.opengroup.org/onlinepubs/9699919799/utilities/test.html

Being Bourne based, Bash isn't a bad interactive choice, so
long as stuff people ship is some reasonable least common
of ash / posix / bsd. You start putting associative arrays and
brace expansion in that shit and some real SA is going well
beyond postal on your ass.




From grarpamp at gmail.com  Tue Aug  2 02:27:52 2016
From: grarpamp at gmail.com (grarpamp)
Date: Tue, 2 Aug 2016 05:27:52 -0400
Subject: metro
In-Reply-To: <20160802082051.GA688@sivokote.iziade.m$>
References: <2015546.nOQYkiYmFU@lapuntu>
 <CAD2Ti29t5pGusV3skD9diGdMv3LEj+Q8DY0CUUB86jovezbnKA@mail.gmail.com>
 <20160802082051.GA688@sivokote.iziade.m$>
Message-ID: <CAD2Ti2_pSBgeJRs5tvMMqXux8R-NFRnfZoCdGdsfPTWkhOuW1A@mail.gmail.com>

On 8/2/16, Georgi Guninski <guninski at guninski.com> wrote:
> Is this SEGV compliant with anything?

lol.

> sendmail is link to procmail.

Then it's procmail.

> It breaks at least mutt + procmail for local delivery.

Perhaps try among others...

http://www.courier-mta.org/maildrop/
http://wiki.dovecot.org/LDA
http://www.postfix.org/
https://www.opensmtpd.org/




From bastianifortress at yandex.com  Mon Aug  1 22:50:21 2016
From: bastianifortress at yandex.com (Bastiani Fortress)
Date: Tue, 02 Aug 2016 07:50:21 +0200
Subject: Scanning the Dark Web with Python (was Re: cypherpunks Digest,
 Vol 37, Issue 101)
In-Reply-To: <CAG2tMp6Wxyrd7K4NQ5CvMSR6SLQGegAT0FQLZL_zWQJeqYOmrw@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAG2tMp4t=8PNcXTj06caT5_0bJRpnxcDjcksL8NbzU7q6rZY3g@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAG2tMp4RxHVWThdGP_SyzsYFk9=Q0aRZN4x0Dcdti_L+qQORyA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAG2tMp4EZD5LWgTx9YT1+GQK-5Tk+gkALtHETYSpaOGMaupZ_A@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAG2tMp7a3gauiLfFrZH0NsWS5HSkTd9GtfUJEj3ns676FMKbAg@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAG2tMp4PDhKbyrBPE1hySp64A2Umwimih++drKOev6w2JaQi0w@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAG2tMp6JzSx7zJWmdpQmOn4GhaeiUtBVrCLmFnyKcvA0WGODrg@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAG2tMp4Xy20820xJumg6HJXh8cCnEOJGzGjttw06Qu1GeePysQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAG2tMp6RCD6zms_rK=V=nheo1-aRKp0xKVDHVUSF6KWVsoE_zQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <5e330b2c-7f84-f0ef-9c03-44a016ca6b2f@gmail.com>
 <CAG2tMp6Wxyrd7K4NQ5CvMSR6SLQGegAT0FQLZL_zWQJeqYOmrw@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <1218031470117021@web14h.yandex.ru>

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From mirimir at riseup.net  Tue Aug  2 07:30:01 2016
From: mirimir at riseup.net (Mirimir)
Date: Tue, 2 Aug 2016 08:30:01 -0600
Subject: metro
In-Reply-To: <6951754.OBCgytrlFt@lapuntu>
References: <2015546.nOQYkiYmFU@lapuntu> <57A07B0D.9030008@riseup.net>
 <6951754.OBCgytrlFt@lapuntu>
Message-ID: <57A0AE69.5090206@riseup.net>

On 08/02/2016 07:20 AM, rysiek wrote:
> Dnia wtorek, 2 sierpnia 2016 04:50:53 CEST Mirimir pisze:
>>> tl;dr setting up IPsec is a pain in the arse, so by the power of
>>> way too many lines of Bash it has been made simpler. Comments, pull
>>> requests, criticism welcome.
>>
>> I presume that this is a flavor of IPsec that NSA can't pwn.
> 
> Hopefully. If anyone has more info, please share!
> 
>> But why do we need IPsec? What's the advantage over OpenVPN?
> 
> I needed an encrypted back-end link between several servers, so that even if 
> any set of them goes down, encrypted comms keep working between all of the 
> rest.
> 
> OpenVPN felt more like client-server thingy, more slated towards a star 
> topology. IPsec is node-node (at least in this particular usecase).
> 
> But I might be missing something here, so again, comments welcome.

OK, I get it. I've never used IPsec. OpenVPN doesn't do many to many.





From guninski at guninski.com  Tue Aug  2 01:20:51 2016
From: guninski at guninski.com (Georgi Guninski)
Date: Tue, 2 Aug 2016 11:20:51 +0300
Subject: metro
In-Reply-To: <CAD2Ti29t5pGusV3skD9diGdMv3LEj+Q8DY0CUUB86jovezbnKA@mail.gmail.com>
References: <2015546.nOQYkiYmFU@lapuntu>
 <CAD2Ti29t5pGusV3skD9diGdMv3LEj+Q8DY0CUUB86jovezbnKA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <20160802082051.GA688@sivokote.iziade.m$>

On Tue, Aug 02, 2016 at 12:16:13AM -0400, grarpamp wrote:
> It's not posix sh(1) compatible, nor appear need any bashism.

Not related to the original code.

Is this SEGV compliant with anything?

sendmail is link to procmail.

$sendmail -- root
a
# CTL-D
Segmentation fault

It breaks at least mutt + procmail for local delivery.





From guninski at guninski.com  Tue Aug  2 01:55:10 2016
From: guninski at guninski.com (Georgi Guninski)
Date: Tue, 2 Aug 2016 11:55:10 +0300
Subject: Riffle: an efficient communication system with strong anonymity
In-Reply-To: <20160712084348.GC687@sivokote.iziade.m$>
References: <CAD2Ti2_LXzbkfCjNxge8TbzvzGhAMaMnqpLV1MSBrRE1ODt5rA@mail.gmail.com>
 <20160712084348.GC687@sivokote.iziade.m$>
Message-ID: <20160802085509.GB688@sivokote.iziade.m$>

On Tue, Jul 12, 2016 at 11:43:48AM +0300, Georgi Guninski wrote:
> On Mon, Jul 11, 2016 at 07:33:40PM -0400, grarpamp wrote:
> > http://news.mit.edu/2016/stay-anonymous-online-0711
> 
> Interesting. So far read only this (it is for dummies).
> 
> Is riffle resistant to active timing attacks (possibly from internal
> nodes)?
> 
> Can sufficiently many malicious nodes cause total DOS? (I suspect they
> will decrease performance at least).

Two days ago I spammed the authors of the Riffle paper with this, no
reply so far.

My guess is it is vulnerable to active timing attacks, they are so
generic. Not sure at all jitter is solution.





From zen at freedbms.net  Mon Aug  1 19:24:02 2016
From: zen at freedbms.net (Zenaan Harkness)
Date: Tue, 2 Aug 2016 12:24:02 +1000
Subject: metro
In-Reply-To: <d449a1ab-1dd2-f28a-c50d-8cf3c412cb2f@riseup.net>
References: <2015546.nOQYkiYmFU@lapuntu>
 <579fcf90.ca66370a.5f2a9.6389@mx.google.com>
 <CAG2tMp64-qnr_7OHNLoS8XgyT0MgsoUG4n3Pvu3qMhBT3F=XCQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <579fdc47.8da4370a.de543.cf43@mx.google.com>
 <CAGRDzQX6+t_1YULw0RJLYPGQ5O5ZzgjO2+woWFnaiNC6aUpBOw@mail.gmail.com>
 <d449a1ab-1dd2-f28a-c50d-8cf3c412cb2f@riseup.net>
Message-ID: <20160802022402.GA2732@x220-a02>

On Mon, Aug 01, 2016 at 06:37:21PM -0700, Rayzer wrote:
> On 08/01/2016 05:33 PM, Cari Machet wrote:
> >
> > Yes lets hear about your thoughts on tor project rysiek
> 
> Tell them Rysiek.
> 
> ALL Cyber-security measures come with a 'taillight warranty'...
> expressed AND implied.

Jokes aside Rysiek, your view on the Tor project 'challenges' occurring
at the moment would be appreciated if you can spare a moment...




From jnn at synfin.org  Tue Aug  2 10:14:12 2016
From: jnn at synfin.org (John)
Date: Tue, 02 Aug 2016 13:14:12 -0400
Subject: metro
In-Reply-To: <CAD2Ti29cX-mSrrFinV1yxOdg_Sq5pJx2G6rYdorVZYhZALAknA@mail.gmail.com>
References: <2015546.nOQYkiYmFU@lapuntu>
 <CAD2Ti29t5pGusV3skD9diGdMv3LEj+Q8DY0CUUB86jovezbnKA@mail.gmail.com>
 <4126C42C-A9A1-491D-AC86-2BD75370631D@synfin.org>
 <CAD2Ti29cX-mSrrFinV1yxOdg_Sq5pJx2G6rYdorVZYhZALAknA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <4C931071-86DE-4755-BC76-8148533CEB7B@synfin.org>



On August 2, 2016 5:02:43 AM EDT, grarpamp <grarpamp at gmail.com> wrote:
>On 8/2/16, John <jnn at synfin.org> wrote:
>> In the days of Linux and /bin/sh being a link to bash
>
>Would be worse if link was to csh (freebsd curiously use csh
>but only as default interactive root shell). Both defaults indoctrinate
>users poorly, at least for forming noninteractive work.
>

csh as default for root is a long holdover from early BSD days... I'm pretty sure they all default to it.

No sane person would script in csh or tcsh.

John

-- 
Sent from my Android device with K-9 Mail. Please excuse my brevity.




From guninski at guninski.com  Tue Aug  2 04:05:56 2016
From: guninski at guninski.com (Georgi Guninski)
Date: Tue, 2 Aug 2016 14:05:56 +0300
Subject: metro
In-Reply-To: <CAD2Ti2_pSBgeJRs5tvMMqXux8R-NFRnfZoCdGdsfPTWkhOuW1A@mail.gmail.com>
References: <2015546.nOQYkiYmFU@lapuntu>
 <CAD2Ti29t5pGusV3skD9diGdMv3LEj+Q8DY0CUUB86jovezbnKA@mail.gmail.com>
 <20160802082051.GA688@sivokote.iziade.m$>
 <CAD2Ti2_pSBgeJRs5tvMMqXux8R-NFRnfZoCdGdsfPTWkhOuW1A@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <20160802110556.GC688@sivokote.iziade.m$>

On Tue, Aug 02, 2016 at 05:27:52AM -0400, grarpamp wrote:
> > sendmail is link to procmail.
> 
> Then it's procmail.
> 

Clearly it is procmail.

> > It breaks at least mutt + procmail for local delivery.
> 
> Perhaps try among others...
> 
> http://www.courier-mta.org/maildrop/
> http://wiki.dovecot.org/LDA
> http://www.postfix.org/
> https://www.opensmtpd.org/

I am not looking for SMTPD, just for _local delivery_.





From rysiek at hackerspace.pl  Tue Aug  2 06:10:40 2016
From: rysiek at hackerspace.pl (rysiek)
Date: Tue, 02 Aug 2016 15:10:40 +0200
Subject: metro
In-Reply-To: <CAD2Ti29t5pGusV3skD9diGdMv3LEj+Q8DY0CUUB86jovezbnKA@mail.gmail.com>
References: <2015546.nOQYkiYmFU@lapuntu>
 <CAD2Ti29t5pGusV3skD9diGdMv3LEj+Q8DY0CUUB86jovezbnKA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <2135475.EWNZeTB7Aq@lapuntu>

Dnia wtorek, 2 sierpnia 2016 00:16:13 CEST grarpamp pisze:
> On 8/1/16, rysiek <rysiek at hackerspace.pl> wrote:
> > lines of Bash it has been made simpler. Comments, pull requests, criticism
> > welcome.
> 
> It's not posix sh(1) compatible, nor appear need any bashism.
> there function is (), source is . , == isn't, [[ is deprecated,
> which is then bash too.
> Intermixes standard $() and lazy backquotes.
> Don't tell people to consider running backquotes, because they will ;)
> 
> http://pubs.opengroup.org/onlinepubs/9699919799/utilities/sh.html
> http://pubs.opengroup.org/onlinepubs/9699919799/utilities/V3_chap02.html
> http://pubs.opengroup.org/onlinepubs/9699919799/utilities/test.html

Yes, this code needs some love, and admittedly POSIX-compatibility was not the 
focus at the time of writing it. As in it would be a nice-to-have, and if I 
find time to do it, I will. :)

Thanks for pointing this out.

-- 
Pozdrawiam,
Michał "rysiek" Woźniak

Zmieniam klucz GPG :: http://rys.io/pl/147
GPG Key Transition :: http://rys.io/en/147
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From rysiek at hackerspace.pl  Tue Aug  2 06:20:00 2016
From: rysiek at hackerspace.pl (rysiek)
Date: Tue, 02 Aug 2016 15:20:00 +0200
Subject: metro
In-Reply-To: <57A07B0D.9030008@riseup.net>
References: <2015546.nOQYkiYmFU@lapuntu> <57A07B0D.9030008@riseup.net>
Message-ID: <6951754.OBCgytrlFt@lapuntu>

Dnia wtorek, 2 sierpnia 2016 04:50:53 CEST Mirimir pisze:
> > tl;dr setting up IPsec is a pain in the arse, so by the power of
> > way too many lines of Bash it has been made simpler. Comments, pull
> > requests, criticism welcome.
> 
> I presume that this is a flavor of IPsec that NSA can't pwn.

Hopefully. If anyone has more info, please share!

> But why do we need IPsec? What's the advantage over OpenVPN?

I needed an encrypted back-end link between several servers, so that even if 
any set of them goes down, encrypted comms keep working between all of the 
rest.

OpenVPN felt more like client-server thingy, more slated towards a star 
topology. IPsec is node-node (at least in this particular usecase).

But I might be missing something here, so again, comments welcome.

-- 
Pozdrawiam,
Michał "rysiek" Woźniak

Zmieniam klucz GPG :: http://rys.io/pl/147
GPG Key Transition :: http://rys.io/en/147
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From zen at freedbms.net  Mon Aug  1 22:56:50 2016
From: zen at freedbms.net (Zenaan Harkness)
Date: Tue, 2 Aug 2016 15:56:50 +1000
Subject: metro
In-Reply-To: <4aa4adcb-8c82-ddb6-2846-1267049f17bc@riseup.net>
References: <2015546.nOQYkiYmFU@lapuntu>
 <579fcf90.ca66370a.5f2a9.6389@mx.google.com>
 <CAG2tMp64-qnr_7OHNLoS8XgyT0MgsoUG4n3Pvu3qMhBT3F=XCQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <579fdc47.8da4370a.de543.cf43@mx.google.com>
 <CAGRDzQX6+t_1YULw0RJLYPGQ5O5ZzgjO2+woWFnaiNC6aUpBOw@mail.gmail.com>
 <d449a1ab-1dd2-f28a-c50d-8cf3c412cb2f@riseup.net>
 <20160802022402.GA2732@x220-a02>
 <4aa4adcb-8c82-ddb6-2846-1267049f17bc@riseup.net>
Message-ID: <20160802055650.GC2732@x220-a02>

On Mon, Aug 01, 2016 at 08:16:32PM -0700, Rayzer wrote:
> On 08/01/2016 07:24 PM, Zenaan Harkness wrote:
> > On Mon, Aug 01, 2016 at 06:37:21PM -0700, Rayzer wrote:
> >> On 08/01/2016 05:33 PM, Cari Machet wrote:
> >>> Yes lets hear about your thoughts on tor project rysiek
> >> Tell them Rysiek.
> >>
> >> ALL Cyber-security measures come with a 'taillight warranty'...
> >> expressed AND implied.
> > Jokes aside Rysiek, your view on the Tor project 'challenges' occurring
> > at the moment would be appreciated if you can spare a moment...
> 
> Really! Do you need a technical fucking explanation what "Taillight
> Warranty" means?
> 
> It MEANS (in this context)
...


Hey, no drama - I was just asking rysiek his thoughts, if he had a
moment, 'tis all.

One man's comedy is another man's trolling, and vice versa.

It's all good. Enjoy the ride :)




From carimachet at gmail.com  Tue Aug  2 06:40:03 2016
From: carimachet at gmail.com (Cari Machet)
Date: Tue, 2 Aug 2016 16:40:03 +0300
Subject: metro
In-Reply-To: <6951754.OBCgytrlFt@lapuntu>
References: <2015546.nOQYkiYmFU@lapuntu> <57A07B0D.9030008@riseup.net>
 <6951754.OBCgytrlFt@lapuntu>
Message-ID: <CAGRDzQXMjfsrdnH7VkwipqJxA_zqvZ07tK7CYdAtgeRxNc18Rg@mail.gmail.com>

comment: you are not addressing your relationship to tor

On Tue, Aug 2, 2016 at 4:20 PM, rysiek <rysiek at hackerspace.pl> wrote:

> Dnia wtorek, 2 sierpnia 2016 04:50:53 CEST Mirimir pisze:
> > > tl;dr setting up IPsec is a pain in the arse, so by the power of
> > > way too many lines of Bash it has been made simpler. Comments, pull
> > > requests, criticism welcome.
> >
> > I presume that this is a flavor of IPsec that NSA can't pwn.
>
> Hopefully. If anyone has more info, please share!
>
> > But why do we need IPsec? What's the advantage over OpenVPN?
>
> I needed an encrypted back-end link between several servers, so that even
> if
> any set of them goes down, encrypted comms keep working between all of the
> rest.
>
> OpenVPN felt more like client-server thingy, more slated towards a star
> topology. IPsec is node-node (at least in this particular usecase).
>
> But I might be missing something here, so again, comments welcome.
>
> --
> Pozdrawiam,
> Michał "rysiek" Woźniak
>
> Zmieniam klucz GPG :: http://rys.io/pl/147
> GPG Key Transition :: http://rys.io/en/147
>



-- 
Cari Machet
NYC 646-436-7795
carimachet at gmail.com
AIM carismachet
Syria +963-099 277 3243
Amman +962 077 636 9407
Berlin +49 152 11779219
Reykjavik +354 894 8650
Twitter: @carimachet <https://twitter.com/carimachet>

7035 690E 5E47 41D4 B0E5 B3D1 AF90 49D6 BE09 2187

Ruh-roh, this is now necessary: This email is intended only for the
addressee(s) and may contain confidential information. If you are not the
intended recipient, you are hereby notified that any use of this
information, dissemination, distribution, or copying of this email without
permission is strictly prohibited.
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From rayzer at riseup.net  Tue Aug  2 18:39:49 2016
From: rayzer at riseup.net (Rayzer)
Date: Tue, 2 Aug 2016 18:39:49 -0700
Subject: =?UTF-8?Q?Re:_=22Deleting_WhatsApp_chats_doesn=e2=80=99t_delete_shi?=
 =?UTF-8?Q?t_nothing.=22?=
In-Reply-To: <CAG2tMp6odaYbj2CuEhavGPOdJY=PV=D3btPi7rx2pxMrhK+Gkg@mail.gmail.com>
References: <fb01189d-6994-71b8-8de7-4488755f8e2a@riseup.net>
 <391461469771270@web17h.yandex.ru>
 <ba88060a-7b0c-b7c7-2aa7-39e7e7f43a6e@riseup.net>
 <CAD2Ti2-JNBoQjyetXXnT4V1d1or96na5jfUmAGcNM+Jbe2TfgQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <4ea69686-30a5-c427-21e6-de9c61b9f91a@riseup.net>
 <579cfd6c.4737ed0a.1ddec.637a@mx.google.com>
 <b3217e80-8554-0a7b-b6fd-cdc690629f80@riseup.net>
 <86741469984694@web30j.yandex.ru>
 <02edfe32-2449-2cad-6703-4696704ee8cf@riseup.net>
 <CAG2tMp6odaYbj2CuEhavGPOdJY=PV=D3btPi7rx2pxMrhK+Gkg@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <efd40b6d-c7e4-0826-d56d-ee037a0f6f00@riseup.net>



On 08/02/2016 03:16 PM, Cecilia Tanaka wrote:
>
> Rayzer dear...  Meh!  :((((
>
> http://venturebeat.com/2016/08/02/hackers-break-into-telegram-revealing-15-million-users-phone-numbers
>
> https://telegram.org/blog/15million-reuters
>
> PS:  -  Sorry, still late!  :P
>
> (And if you are boring and invasive, I certainly will be late
> forever!  Give up, baby!)
>


> which can be intercepted by the phone company and shared with the hackers,

With this:

    The researchers said they also found evidence that the hackers took
    advantage of a programing interface built into Telegram to identify
    at least 15 million Iranian phone numbers with Telegram accounts
    registered to them, as well as the associated user IDs.

As a redundancy and elaboration of the former quote including
Multisyllabic phrases such as "systematic de-anonymization" to muddle
the issue, and make it appear to be another issue when it isn't.

Apparently all they got are the phone numbers from the sms verification,
and hackers didn't do it. The phoneco GAVE THEM the info. It requires
complicity on the part of the utility. Which is something one can assume
any commercial service would do if a government requests and under THEIR
LAW (Iran in this case) claims criminal activity. The extraction of data
they can do with that phone number It requires that you never set up an
account with password.

A burner smartphone, which by the way US Congress is trying to outlaw,
circumvents. Set up a passworded account using a throwaway email. Done.
Telegram has always cajoled people to set up an account with password
for extra security

Listen, as I've been repeating over an over sometimes directly,
sometimes indirectly ... bad PERSEC/CYBERSEC screws you so much more
often than the communications method or it's potentially compromised
code. Probably 99% of the time but I've never crunched the numbers. NO
ONE can hold your hand to make sure you do it right. If your life or
freedom depend on it YOU DO IT RIGHT.

Rr

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From spencerone at openmailbox.org  Tue Aug  2 18:41:11 2016
From: spencerone at openmailbox.org (Spencer)
Date: Tue, 02 Aug 2016 18:41:11 -0700
Subject: Federal Data Centers.
In-Reply-To: <134238949.9669041.1470164819171.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com>
References: <134238949.9669041.1470164819171.JavaMail.yahoo.ref@mail.yahoo.com>
 <134238949.9669041.1470164819171.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <73d7cfcc3de344a583590ce7a6b49bf0@openmailbox.org>

Hi,

> 
> The DCOI requires that expansion result in a net reduction
> of data inventory.
> 

This stood out.

> 
> share best practices
> 

Did they share a link to their Git?

Wordlife
Spencer







From spencerone at openmailbox.org  Tue Aug  2 18:51:03 2016
From: spencerone at openmailbox.org (Spencer)
Date: Tue, 02 Aug 2016 18:51:03 -0700
Subject: Pay for Play, Influence Peddling, Tor and Hillary/Russia
In-Reply-To: <307060768.9885305.1470165329492.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com>
References: <4579aed2-1c44-553d-d37a-df440042166d@riseup.net>
 <CAG2tMp6M0iteb=5ADDMxy1Ex8cAYZNNr_AbYMLQMKTt_t3L5bA@mail.gmail.com>
 <579a62f6.ef24ed0a.805c6.9090@mx.google.com>
 <CAG2tMp4H8KSZVS75DqSaYw0omZ32_396J5AevqLqMbNpduP2ig@mail.gmail.com>
 <579a74a9.57a5370a.44210.a0e0@mx.google.com>
 <CAG2tMp6VMy4zWpmutTswZL5_iMkCa2jBsTpS=uFK4hWx-AnpTw@mail.gmail.com>
 <579bf47b.8d2a370a.c27ce.d1da@mx.google.com>
 <0a5bbe20-a784-7be5-7367-3318558289dd@riseup.net>
 <CAG2tMp6jgVKyWtT2fdTBfbt436O1Ms4adB=K5NnQ1uDup1hU6A@mail.gmail.com>
 <579e87bd.c124c80a.0b33.2d53@mx.google.com>
 <307060768.9885305.1470165329492.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <9d016c3093b978813549d537f89a9780@openmailbox.org>

Hi,

> 
> jim bell:
> the lack of improvements over time
> 

This seems to stem more from a misplaced understanding of what design 
is, on the developers side, since non-protocol improvements get ignored, 
too.

Wordlife,
Spencer




From jdb10987 at yahoo.com  Tue Aug  2 12:06:59 2016
From: jdb10987 at yahoo.com (jim bell)
Date: Tue, 2 Aug 2016 19:06:59 +0000 (UTC)
Subject: Federal Data Centers.
References: <134238949.9669041.1470164819171.JavaMail.yahoo.ref@mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <134238949.9669041.1470164819171.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com>

Given that hard-disk capacity probably increases by 50%+ per year, this is not at all surprising.  That huge Utah NSA data center was probably designed in 2000-2001.  At that time, the typical hard drive as sold was probably 2-4 gigabytes.  At that time, it would probably have only been able to store the metadata of all phone calls in the world.  By the time Clapper's lie unearthed the facts, in 2013, the typical hard drive had increased to perhaps 1000x larger, or 2 terabytes.  That would have allowed that data center to store the audio of every phone call in the world for a year, maybe much more.And 10-terabyte hard drives are now being made.            Jim Bell

http://fedscoop.com/white-house-gets-tougher-on-data-centers-in-new-policy

White House gets tougher on data centers in new policy
The Data Center Optimization Initiative will supersede 2010 Federal Data Center Consolidation Initiative, a foundational effort that led to the closure of 1,900 data centers since 2010.
By Billy Mitchell
AUGUST 1, 2016 5:30 PM
BIO
The White House finalized a policy Monday that forbids agencies from budgeting funds toward the creation or expansion of data centers, with few exceptions.  
The Office of Management and Budget implemented the Data Center Optimization Initiative, introduced as a draft plan in March, to supersede the 2010 Federal Data Center Consolidation Initiative, building on the previous policy's framework for making IT spending more efficient. 
The DCOI requires that agencies wishing to put resources toward the expansion or building of a data center must request approval from federal CIO Tony Scott and include an analysis of alternative options and how doing so would result in a net reduction of the agency's data center inventory. 
As set forth in the prior FDCCI policy, agencies must continue to reduce data center inventory to "essential enterprise levels." The new policy defines data centers as “rooms with at least one server, providing services (whether in a production test, staging, development, or any other environment) but not “rooms containing only print servers, routing equipment, switches, security devices (such as firewalls), or other telecommunications components.”
Based on this definition, agencies must complete a review of their data center inventory by Aug. 31. 
Scott in a blog post touted the "enormous progress" the federal government has made reducing its data center footprint since 2010.
"Agencies have closed over 1,900 data centers, reducing the real estate footprint of Federal data centers by more than 1.2 million square feet, and made significant strides toward optimizing existing data centers," he wrote. "These efforts have resulted in nearly $1 billion in savings and a Federal data center inventory that is more efficient, effective, and secure. "
The new policy cites the Federal IT Acquisition Reform Act as a driving force, holding CIOs accountable for "implementing and measuring progress toward meeting the goals set forth in this memorandum." 
Particularly, the DCOI holds CIOs to meet stringent goals around consolidation and optimization. In the next three years, agencies must close at least 25 percent of their tiered data centers — centers with separate physical space, uninterruptible power supply, dedicated cooling systems and a backup generator — and 60 percent of non-tiered data centers, which are smaller systems, like server rooms and nodes. 
"This target will result in the closure of approximately 52% of the overall Federal data center inventory and a reduction of approximately 31% in the real estate footprint occupied by data centers Government-wide," Scott wrote.
Likewise, the policy calls for agencies to reduce annual data center costs by at least 25 percent by fiscal year 2018, estimating a savings of $2.7 billion if achieved. 
Agencies must also achieve optimization targets in five other areas, according to Scott: "installation of energy metering to track power consumption; a power usage effectiveness (PUE) target to improve energy efficiency; virtualization and server utilization metrics to ensure IT equipment is being utilized efficiently; and a facility utilization metric to drive more efficient use of space in Federal data centers.
To get there, OMB has called on the General Services Administration to provide a marketplace of shared services so that agencies of any size, with any budget can strive for these goals.
GSA will provide a Data Center Infrastructure Management Tool Assessment to help agencies access tools "to monitor, measure, manage and/or control data center utilization and energy consumption of all IT-related equipment," and share other best practices to help agencies comply with the policy.
"The marketplace will ensure an even playing field for customers to learn about and negotiate services with providers," GSA Administrator Denise Turner Roth said in a statement.
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From jdb10987 at yahoo.com  Tue Aug  2 12:15:29 2016
From: jdb10987 at yahoo.com (jim bell)
Date: Tue, 2 Aug 2016 19:15:29 +0000 (UTC)
Subject: Pay for Play, Influence Peddling, Tor and Hillary/Russia
In-Reply-To: <579e87bd.c124c80a.0b33.2d53@mx.google.com>
References: <4579aed2-1c44-553d-d37a-df440042166d@riseup.net>
 <CAG2tMp6M0iteb=5ADDMxy1Ex8cAYZNNr_AbYMLQMKTt_t3L5bA@mail.gmail.com>
 <579a62f6.ef24ed0a.805c6.9090@mx.google.com>
 <CAG2tMp4H8KSZVS75DqSaYw0omZ32_396J5AevqLqMbNpduP2ig@mail.gmail.com>
 <579a74a9.57a5370a.44210.a0e0@mx.google.com>
 <CAG2tMp6VMy4zWpmutTswZL5_iMkCa2jBsTpS=uFK4hWx-AnpTw@mail.gmail.com>
 <579bf47b.8d2a370a.c27ce.d1da@mx.google.com>
 <0a5bbe20-a784-7be5-7367-3318558289dd@riseup.net>
 <CAG2tMp6jgVKyWtT2fdTBfbt436O1Ms4adB=K5NnQ1uDup1hU6A@mail.gmail.com>
 <579e87bd.c124c80a.0b33.2d53@mx.google.com>
Message-ID: <307060768.9885305.1470165329492.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com>

Since the Federal government finances Tor, it is able to influence its development; specifically, the
 lack of improvements over time to include features such as dummy traffic.
Now, we are hearing that the Clinton Foundation was accepting money from Russian sources during the "Russian Reset" a few years ago.                  Jim Bell


http://nypost.com/2016/07/31/report-raises-questions-about-clinton-cash-from-russians-during-reset/
"There’s more “Clinton Cash” trouble for Hillary.""A report out Monday, “From Russia With Money — Hillary Clinton, the Russian Reset and Cronyism,” raises serious questions about the cash connections between the Clintons and participants in the State Department’s failed five-year effort to improve, or “reset,” US-Russia relations during Hillary’s reign as secretary of state."Key players in a main component of the reset — a Moscow-based, Silicon Valley-styled campus for developing biomed, space, nuclear and IT technologies called “Skolkovo” — poured tens of millions of dollars into the Clinton Foundation, the report by journalist Peter Schweizer alleges."As the Obama administration’s top diplomat, Hillary Clinton was at the center of US efforts on the reset in general and Skolkovo in particular, Schweizer argues."Yet, “Of the 28 US, European and Russian companies that participated in Skolkovo, 17 of them were Clinton Foundation donors” or sponsored speeches by former President Bill Clinton, Schweizer told The Post.“It raises the question — do you need to pay money to sit at the table?”"In one example cited by Schweizer, Skolkovo Foundation member and then-Cisco CEO John Chambers donated between $1 million and $5 million in personal and corporate cash to the Clinton Foundation, the report says."But Skolkovo wound up making America less safe, Schweizer argues, because it shared advanced US technology that Russia can develop for both civilian and military applications, a concern raised already by Army and FBI officials.[end of portion quoted]



    





  
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From cecilia.tanaka at gmail.com  Tue Aug  2 15:16:21 2016
From: cecilia.tanaka at gmail.com (Cecilia Tanaka)
Date: Tue, 2 Aug 2016 19:16:21 -0300
Subject: =?UTF-8?Q?Re=3A_=22Deleting_WhatsApp_chats_doesn=E2=80=99t_delete_shit_n?=
 =?UTF-8?Q?othing=2E=22?=
In-Reply-To: <02edfe32-2449-2cad-6703-4696704ee8cf@riseup.net>
References: <fb01189d-6994-71b8-8de7-4488755f8e2a@riseup.net>
 <391461469771270@web17h.yandex.ru>
 <ba88060a-7b0c-b7c7-2aa7-39e7e7f43a6e@riseup.net>
 <CAD2Ti2-JNBoQjyetXXnT4V1d1or96na5jfUmAGcNM+Jbe2TfgQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <4ea69686-30a5-c427-21e6-de9c61b9f91a@riseup.net>
 <579cfd6c.4737ed0a.1ddec.637a@mx.google.com>
 <b3217e80-8554-0a7b-b6fd-cdc690629f80@riseup.net>
 <86741469984694@web30j.yandex.ru>
 <02edfe32-2449-2cad-6703-4696704ee8cf@riseup.net>
Message-ID: <CAG2tMp6odaYbj2CuEhavGPOdJY=PV=D3btPi7rx2pxMrhK+Gkg@mail.gmail.com>

Rayzer dear...  Meh!  :((((

http://venturebeat.com/2016/08/02/hackers-break-into-telegram-revealing-15-million-users-phone-numbers

https://telegram.org/blog/15million-reuters

PS:  -  Sorry, still late!  :P

(And if you are boring and invasive, I certainly will be late forever!
Give up, baby!)
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From seanl at literati.org  Tue Aug  2 13:36:24 2016
From: seanl at literati.org (Sean Lynch)
Date: Tue, 02 Aug 2016 20:36:24 +0000
Subject: FM Corporations/ businesses/ entitities
In-Reply-To: <20160730013607.GB17721@x220-a02>
References: <20160730013607.GB17721@x220-a02>
Message-ID: <CAHKdp-kxQf7CnCx1xSTCDEcELn7Cs4-vtkrpA5Oxqw1_5B8vRQ@mail.gmail.com>

On Fri, Jul 29, 2016 at 6:51 PM Zenaan Harkness <zen at freedbms.net> wrote:

> On Fri, Jul 29, 2016 at 09:45:40PM -0300, juan wrote:
> > On Fri, 29 Jul 2016 13:43:12 +0300
> > Georgi Guninski <guninski at guninski.com> wrote:
> > > Anyway, I meant that in a free market (FM), you will still have
> > > corporations (possibly under more politically correct term like FM
> > > corporation).
> >
> >       'corporations' are a legal fiction created by the state, so no.
>
> When > 1 humans associate for the purposes of shared economic activity/
> incentive in what we may as well term "business", it is in their
> interests to face the world as a named entity.
>

Agreed.


> I think this is Georgi's point - in a FM we are free to associate with
> one another as we so choose. So in Georgi's case here,
>
>  FM corporation ~= business ~= economic activity association
>
> And of course, where there is no government, there shall be no
> "corporations" as created by governments. Any group calling themselves a
> "corporation" would have a meaning different from the current meaning,
> thus "FM corporation".
>

Even without a government, I think an anarchic society will still need
institutions to function, even if those institutions are entirely
voluntary. I can imagine sets of institutions that would allow corporations
in a similar sense to how they exist now, i.e. limited liability and some
form of "personhood." The most likely such institution would be some kind
of court system where, in order to have access to the court as a means of
seeking restitution, you must agree not to go outside it to go after any
other participant, and must not have done so before.


> This leads to perhaps an interesting question:
>
> Today there are many businesses, companies, corporations etc. which
> entities represent their owners (possibly in the form of share holders)
> and controllers (possibly just the owners, and/ or part owners, or the
> directors/ managers employed to control certains aspects of the
> business).
>
> Share holders/ owners can include other entities - trusts, hedge funds,
> pension funds etc.
>
> These entity owners have actual interests - economic interests, and any
> other contractable/ name-able interest which might be written, but may
> not be written, including for example:
>  - simple economic interests - share dividends, perceived future share
>    price for future sale etc
>  - maturity of an estate, vesting from the estate holder to the named
>    beneficiaries in a will
>  - power and control structures as manifested by the CIA, FBI, NSA,
>    North American BISMIC (banking intelligence surveillance/ spying
>    military industrial control complex)
>
> Contracts (explicit/ implied) - entities - interests (or rather
> "beneficiaries").
>
> (Of course some interests would not be considered "lawful" or acceptable
> to an average direct democracy/ anarchic voter (assuming that particular
> interest were up for a vote) for example.)
>
> THE QUESTION:
> The question I think always shall be, is how to transition to an
> anarchic society, in consideration of existing interests. I.e. how to
> peacefully transition existing entities/ structure/ interests into an
> anarchistic/ truly free market reality.
>

This is a question I think about all the time.


> I am implying evolution. Revolution - we see how well that went after
> the fall of the Tzar, to the various CIA instigated revolutionary coups
> from Lybia to Syria, Ukraine to Yugoslavia, none of which resulted in
> nor were intended to result in an actualisation of an anarchistic
> society.
>

Agreed.


> The problem with revolution, is that it is ideological extremists who
> give enough of a shit to pick up a gun and start shooting (for example)
> police, citizens and government officials, and the outcome is that the
> ideological extremists end up holding the seats of power and institute
> something -other- than anarchism. Such extremists as our world's history
> have seen, tend to sociopathy, rather than the benevolent, side of
> dictatorship.
>

I see revolutions as a symptom of a broken society. Reform, or evolution,
is certainly preferable.


>
> We must always remember it is never the arm chair pundit ("oh I wish our
> democracy elected representatives actually represented us") crowd who
> will change the world.
>
> So historically, revolutions seem to be more a devolution than an
> evolution of the status quo. If you have counter examples, please
> highlight them now.
>

The French and English revolutions both resulted, after a while, in better
societies than they started in, as far as I can tell. The Haitian
revolution ended slavery there. I don't consider the American revolution,
on the other hand, to be a counter example, though it clearly inspired the
French revolution. Not to say that the French revolution and other reforms
of European monarchies wouldn't have happened anyway.


> So it is that I hold far greater hope for a better/ anarchistic/ direct
> democracy type of future, via the pathway of evolution, and not
> revolution.
>

Same here.


> And so it is also that we owe it to our future generations to consider
> pathways to peaceful transition of existing interests, into that better
> future.
>

Agreed.

While I think agorism's approach ("grow the counter-economy and the state
will eventually whither away") is provably ineffective, I do think it has a
lot to teach us here. Its main problem is that government is always "just
good enough" that people will continue to resort to it, and people are
forced to pay for it whether or not they make use of it, and they may not
opt out of its jurisdiction. One must not only create alternatives to
government services, they must be alternatives people actually use.

One of the pieces of evidence used against Ross Ulbricht was a post of his
in which he stated, "I am creating an economic simulation to give people a
first-hand experience of what it would be like to live in a world without
the systemic use of force." Whether or not Silk Road was that "simulation",
the general statement is exactly what we need to do, in my opinion. Create
systems of "law" and "governance" that do not require the use of force.
These systems do not have to be all-encompassing; they can be small and
narrow in scope. They just have to make it so people don't feel like they
have to resort to government (i.e. force) to achieve their ends.

Just like they do with the "wild west", I think people drastically
underestimate the amount of spontaneous order in black markets. Hollywood
certainly feeds of it with post-apocalyptic movies & TV shows that depict
everything going straight to "anarchy" the moment there's a hiccup in
government. But history demonstrates that in fact the exact opposite is
true. The only time things descend into "anarchy" when the government falls
is when the collapse of the government was caused by violence in the first
place, or where the government's failure had left society "hollowed out."
Somalia is probably the best known example of this happening. I think
Russia after the collapse of the USSR is probably a more typical example of
what I believe to be the common case.

Security of property and computer systems is an area that's pretty ripe for
non-government solutions. I doubt most readers of this list assume that
they can just rely on police to prevent their car from getting stolen or
house from getting broken into, or think the police will come along and
investigate after the fact, then catch the thief and get their stuff back.
No, we all have insurance, locks, good passwords with two-factor and/or
public key authentication, probably cameras, safes, crypto, etc. A lot of
that is pretty hard to use, though, so maybe we should be focusing on
making the solutions we use available to the masses.

Thanks for this post, by the way. One of my favorites on cpunks to date.
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From spencerone at openmailbox.org  Tue Aug  2 22:08:29 2016
From: spencerone at openmailbox.org (Spencer)
Date: Tue, 02 Aug 2016 22:08:29 -0700
Subject: Pay for Play, Influence Peddling, Tor and Hillary/Russia
In-Reply-To: <57a16896.e928c80a.fe15a.1843@mx.google.com>
References: <579a62f6.ef24ed0a.805c6.9090@mx.google.com>
 <CAG2tMp4H8KSZVS75DqSaYw0omZ32_396J5AevqLqMbNpduP2ig@mail.gmail.com>
 <579a74a9.57a5370a.44210.a0e0@mx.google.com>
 <CAG2tMp6VMy4zWpmutTswZL5_iMkCa2jBsTpS=uFK4hWx-AnpTw@mail.gmail.com>
 <579bf47b.8d2a370a.c27ce.d1da@mx.google.com>
 <0a5bbe20-a784-7be5-7367-3318558289dd@riseup.net>
 <CAG2tMp6jgVKyWtT2fdTBfbt436O1Ms4adB=K5NnQ1uDup1hU6A@mail.gmail.com>
 <579e87bd.c124c80a.0b33.2d53@mx.google.com>
 <307060768.9885305.1470165329492.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com>
 <9d016c3093b978813549d537f89a9780@openmailbox.org>
 <20160803024648.GC2616@x220-a02>
 <57a16896.e928c80a.fe15a.1843@mx.google.com>
Message-ID: <592050d9cd6b0950dbb8371ef452f0c8@openmailbox.org>

Hi,

> 
> Zenaan Harkness:
> extreme rebukes against bittorrent over Tor
> 

Well, compliance is their current working definition of usability XD

Wordlife,
Spencer







From zen at freedbms.net  Tue Aug  2 06:48:59 2016
From: zen at freedbms.net (Zenaan Harkness)
Date: Tue, 2 Aug 2016 23:48:59 +1000
Subject: metro
In-Reply-To: <6951754.OBCgytrlFt@lapuntu>
References: <2015546.nOQYkiYmFU@lapuntu> <57A07B0D.9030008@riseup.net>
 <6951754.OBCgytrlFt@lapuntu>
Message-ID: <20160802134859.GE2732@x220-a02>

On Tue, Aug 02, 2016 at 03:20:00PM +0200, rysiek wrote:
> Dnia wtorek, 2 sierpnia 2016 04:50:53 CEST Mirimir pisze:
> > > tl;dr setting up IPsec is a pain in the arse, so by the power of
> > > way too many lines of Bash it has been made simpler. Comments, pull
> > > requests, criticism welcome.
> > 
> > I presume that this is a flavor of IPsec that NSA can't pwn.
> 
> Hopefully. If anyone has more info, please share!
> 
> > But why do we need IPsec? What's the advantage over OpenVPN?
> 
> I needed an encrypted back-end link between several servers, so that even if 
> any set of them goes down, encrypted comms keep working between all of the 
> rest.
> 
> OpenVPN felt more like client-server thingy, more slated towards a star 
> topology. IPsec is node-node (at least in this particular usecase).

That was my impression too - I used openvpn for a year or two some years
back. Was always slightly frustrating. Needs another layer for auto
configuring or something. I need to check out openswan/ipsec to be able
to compare though..




From spencerone at openmailbox.org  Wed Aug  3 00:24:02 2016
From: spencerone at openmailbox.org (Spencer)
Date: Wed, 03 Aug 2016 00:24:02 -0700
Subject: Pay for Play, Influence Peddling, Tor and Hillary/Russia
In-Reply-To: <57a18e46.6239ed0a.d0e4b.28ed@mx.google.com>
References: <579a62f6.ef24ed0a.805c6.9090@mx.google.com>
 <CAG2tMp4H8KSZVS75DqSaYw0omZ32_396J5AevqLqMbNpduP2ig@mail.gmail.com>
 <579a74a9.57a5370a.44210.a0e0@mx.google.com>
 <CAG2tMp6VMy4zWpmutTswZL5_iMkCa2jBsTpS=uFK4hWx-AnpTw@mail.gmail.com>
 <579bf47b.8d2a370a.c27ce.d1da@mx.google.com>
 <0a5bbe20-a784-7be5-7367-3318558289dd@riseup.net>
 <CAG2tMp6jgVKyWtT2fdTBfbt436O1Ms4adB=K5NnQ1uDup1hU6A@mail.gmail.com>
 <579e87bd.c124c80a.0b33.2d53@mx.google.com>
 <307060768.9885305.1470165329492.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com>
 <9d016c3093b978813549d537f89a9780@openmailbox.org>
 <20160803024648.GC2616@x220-a02>
 <298402368.10776248.1470196812980.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com>
 <57a16f17.7724ed0a.ae7a8.1f00@mx.google.com>
 <901642527.10137206.1470201666165.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com>
 <57a18e46.6239ed0a.d0e4b.28ed@mx.google.com>
Message-ID: <889f6648e1a688aa682c5e396be4384b@openmailbox.org>

Hi,

> 
> juan:
> maidsafe
> 

"joins together the spare computing capacity of all SAFE users, creating 
a global network; pays in coin"

VM and sandbox vulnerabilities sand out but it seems cool.

There were some mesh groups here in the snow but haven't heard much in a 
while.

Wordlife,
Spencer






From admin at pilobilus.net  Tue Aug  2 21:34:07 2016
From: admin at pilobilus.net (Steve Kinney)
Date: Wed, 3 Aug 2016 00:34:07 -0400
Subject: FM Corporations/ businesses/ entitities
In-Reply-To: <20160730013607.GB17721@x220-a02>
References: <20160730013607.GB17721@x220-a02>
Message-ID: <04bfae7a-2de4-63e7-3adb-9bd54001d274@pilobilus.net>

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1

On 07/29/2016 09:36 PM, Zenaan Harkness wrote:
> On Fri, Jul 29, 2016 at 09:45:40PM -0300, juan wrote:
>> On Fri, 29 Jul 2016 13:43:12 +0300 Georgi Guninski
>> <guninski at guninski.com> wrote:
>>> Anyway, I meant that in a free market (FM), you will still
>>> have corporations (possibly under more politically correct term
>>> like FM corporation).
>> 
>> 'corporations' are a legal fiction created by the state, so no.
> 
> When > 1 humans associate for the purposes of shared economic
> activity/ incentive in what we may as well term "business", it is
> in their interests to face the world as a named entity.
> 
> I think this is Georgi's point - in a FM we are free to associate
> with one another as we so choose. So in Georgi's case here,
> 
> FM corporation ~= business ~= economic activity association
> 
> And of course, where there is no government, there shall be no 
> "corporations" as created by governments. Any group calling
> themselves a "corporation" would have a meaning different from the
> current meaning, thus "FM corporation".

I like the generic term "syndicate" for any association of persons,
including meta-associations of groups, seeking common goals in support
of common interests.  Its vaguely ominous connotations tend to
counteract the spin doctored implications of other terminology.

The first corporate charters were in effect for a limited time, with
assigned missions to benefit the interests of the Crown or, in nominal
democracies, the public interest.  Today, corporate persons are
immortal, mutable in form and function, and "the public interest" is
broadly interpreted as economic activity of any kind.

In present usage, a corporation is a fictitious person created by
private fiat per a State-delegated "legal right," and itself has full
civil rights in matters pertaining to commerce.  Today's standard
boiler plate corporate charters specify a corporation's mission as
"all lawful purposes."

So in modern usage, a corporation is a commercial syndicate with
special privileges granted by the State.

> THE QUESTION: The question I think always shall be, is how to
> transition to an anarchic society, in consideration of existing
> interests. I.e. how to peacefully transition existing entities/
> structure/ interests into an anarchistic/ truly free market
> reality.

How can one "peacefully" tear the dominant syndicates ruling an entire
civilization to pieces?  Those who own and administer those syndicates
have devoted their lives to the acquisition and retention of power, at
the expense of others and in competition against a broad spectrum of
rivals and adversaries.  The modern Democratic State exists for the
sole purpose of protecting and advancing the interests of dominant
economic syndicates and their owners by any means necessary, with
deadly force topping the go-to list.

A whole art and science of nonviolent strategic conflict addresses
methods of applying coercive social and economic measures to modify
the behavior of dominant syndicates including their State
sponsor/clients.  But an existential threat to these syndicates will
ultimately result in their application of deadly force, and a response
in kind.

Anarchy is not a proposed form of government or social order; it is an
informed critique of governments and social orders.  Or it is a
delusional belief system indoctrinated by propaganda.  Or it is
violent opposition to social order of any kind.  Depends who you ask.

If you want an anarchistic society, you will need to keep units of
sovereign governance small enough that everyone can observe and play
an active role in their governance.  You need to govern that State in
a manner that never delegates decision making power; decision making
by consensus assures that very few non-emergency decisions will be
made at all; thus, State interference in private affairs will be very
limited.

In short, you need to model your State as Bands, Tribes and Nations
governed by open Councils acting on consensus only.  And you need to
site it on a world where no other kind of State exists or can arise,
because hierarchal governance in a caste system includes efficiencies
that will enable other States to take yours over shortly after they
see advantages in doing so.  At best your Anarchistic State may
survive by imitating the organizational methods of antagonistic States
- - but then, you will no longer have an Anarchistic State.

> I am implying evolution. Revolution - we see how well that went
> after the fall of the Tzar, to the various CIA instigated
> revolutionary coups from Lybia to Syria, Ukraine to Yugoslavia,
> none of which resulted in nor were intended to result in an
> actualisation of an anarchistic society.
> 
> The problem with revolution, is that it is ideological extremists
> who give enough of a shit to pick up a gun and start shooting (for
> example) police, citizens and government officials, and the outcome
> is that the ideological extremists end up holding the seats of
> power and institute something -other- than anarchism. Such
> extremists as our world's history have seen, tend to sociopathy,
> rather than the benevolent, side of dictatorship.

The problem with "revolution" is semantic:  We are taught that a
revolution is an armed conflict that replaces one gang of rulers with
another gang of rulers, who may or may not bring plans for a new
social and economic structure with them.

My favorite definition of "revolution" equates it to "the world turned
upside down."

We are taught that revolutions initiate radical changes in social and
economic systems, but I maintain that revolutions are the end result
of radical changes in social and economic behavior.  We are taught
that Great Leaders with Great Ideas change the world, but I maintain
that changes in technology, population and environmental conditions
change the world:  Those Great Leaders with their Great Ideas show up
/after/ irreversible changes in social and economic life have already
taken place.  They represent new dominant syndicates, seeking to
displace institutions of governance created by and for the exclusive
benefit of earlier dominant syndicates.  Their role is to modify the
institutions of State power to codify, control and exploit the new
order, for the sole benefit of the new dominant syndicates.

According to this model, the "shooting war" phase of a real revolution
serves the sole purpose of removing dead-end resistance to rule by new
dominant syndicates that have already eclipsed the power of previously
dominant syndicates.

> We must always remember it is never the arm chair pundit ("oh I
> wish our democracy elected representatives actually represented
> us") crowd who will change the world.
> 
> So historically, revolutions seem to be more a devolution than an 
> evolution of the status quo. If you have counter examples, please 
> highlight them now.

The French and American Revolutions removed the institutions of
Monarchy to make way for a New World Order where insurgent Mercantile
and Industrialist factions share power with the older "landed"
Aristocracy.  That New World Order developed under Monarchy; its
revolutions only restructured political power to reflect a new
arrangement of economic powers already in place, and establish the new
dominant syndicates as its "legitimate" rulers.

> So it is that I hold far greater hope for a better/ anarchistic/
> direct democracy type of future, via the pathway of evolution, and
> not revolution.

No evolution, no revolution.  Unless by "revolution" one means
overthrowing the State to replace it with a new State administering
the same social and economic systems the old State evolved to control
and exploit.  In this case, revolutionaries are those who seek power
for its own sake through violent means; that is not likely to end well.

> And so it is also that we owe it to our future generations to
> consider pathways to peaceful transition of existing interests,
> into that better future.

The real future includes the collapse of industrial economies,
accelerated looting of under-defended territories, and a major human
population crash.  This is the picture presented by current and
historical geophysical data.  Any plan or strategy that does not work
in this context does not work.

Absent a paradigm shift that replaces "progress" with "disaster
mitigation, management and recovery," application of political theory
and practice can only produce worse outcomes, not better ones.

My proposed solution is radical decentralization of industry and
agriculture; adaptation of "low technology" not dependent on
centralized heavy industry to replace "high technology" where and as
it has real survival value; moving as many people as far away from
population centers as possible; and distributing field tested
strategies and technologies for the above as widely as possible while
the networks and economies to do so are still up and running.

Large scale industrial processes that systematically destroy the
essential survival resources of future generations have to be halted
as soon as possible.  Hydraulic fracturing to harvest petrochemicals
permanently destroys water tables.  It is now decades too late to
"stop" global warming, but not too late to limit the rate of onset,
severity, and duration of large scale climactic disruptions on the way
to a "new normal."  Genetically engineered 'food' crops destroy
topsoil ecologies, poison water supplies and threaten the genetic
integrity of plant species necessary to large scale human survival.
The longer these and other grossly destructive industrial activities
continue, the lower the resulting long term carrying capacity for
human population in affected regions.

Preparation for and mitigation of the "end of the world as we know it"
provides more than a lifetime of challenging, satisfying, useful work.
 Any real progress in these areas will produce a better future,
sooner, for more people.

Ready?  Go!

:o)



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From juan.g71 at gmail.com  Tue Aug  2 20:36:43 2016
From: juan.g71 at gmail.com (juan)
Date: Wed, 3 Aug 2016 00:36:43 -0300
Subject: FM Corporations/ businesses/ entitities
In-Reply-To: <20160803005130.GA2616@x220-a02>
References: <20160730013607.GB17721@x220-a02>
 <CAHKdp-kxQf7CnCx1xSTCDEcELn7Cs4-vtkrpA5Oxqw1_5B8vRQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <20160803005130.GA2616@x220-a02>
Message-ID: <57a165d7.1724c80a.9ff72.18df@mx.google.com>

On Wed, 3 Aug 2016 10:51:30 +1000
Zenaan Harkness <zen at freedbms.net> wrote:


> > even if those institutions are entirely
> > voluntary. I can imagine sets of institutions that would allow
> > corporations in a similar sense to how they exist now, i.e. limited
> > liability and some form of "personhood."
> 
> 'limited liability' means that the owners of the company cannot be
> personally sued.


	Yes. And the idea that a libertarian society or a truly free
	market is going to copy mercantilistic devices from the 'ancien
	regime' is unwarranted. 

	I'm not surprised that Sean said that though, since Sean has a
	rather 'naive' view about current fascist 'institutions' like
	apple, facebook, uber, the tor project and other jewels from
	the establishment's crown.




From juan.g71 at gmail.com  Tue Aug  2 20:48:26 2016
From: juan.g71 at gmail.com (juan)
Date: Wed, 3 Aug 2016 00:48:26 -0300
Subject: Pay for Play, Influence Peddling, Tor and Hillary/Russia
In-Reply-To: <20160803024648.GC2616@x220-a02>
References: <579a62f6.ef24ed0a.805c6.9090@mx.google.com>
 <CAG2tMp4H8KSZVS75DqSaYw0omZ32_396J5AevqLqMbNpduP2ig@mail.gmail.com>
 <579a74a9.57a5370a.44210.a0e0@mx.google.com>
 <CAG2tMp6VMy4zWpmutTswZL5_iMkCa2jBsTpS=uFK4hWx-AnpTw@mail.gmail.com>
 <579bf47b.8d2a370a.c27ce.d1da@mx.google.com>
 <0a5bbe20-a784-7be5-7367-3318558289dd@riseup.net>
 <CAG2tMp6jgVKyWtT2fdTBfbt436O1Ms4adB=K5NnQ1uDup1hU6A@mail.gmail.com>
 <579e87bd.c124c80a.0b33.2d53@mx.google.com>
 <307060768.9885305.1470165329492.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com>
 <9d016c3093b978813549d537f89a9780@openmailbox.org>
 <20160803024648.GC2616@x220-a02>
Message-ID: <57a16896.e928c80a.fe15a.1843@mx.google.com>

On Wed, 3 Aug 2016 12:46:48 +1000
Zenaan Harkness <zen at freedbms.net> wrote:

> On Tue, Aug 02, 2016 at 06:51:03PM -0700, Spencer wrote:
> > Hi,
> > 
> > >
> > >jim bell:
> > >the lack of improvements over time
> > >
> > 
> > This seems to stem more from a misplaced understanding of what
> > design is, on the developers side, since non-protocol improvements
> > get ignored, too.
> 
> They have explicitly stated that certain features, including chaff
> fill packets at the protocol layer, have been not granted funding.


	Actually what I think I got from scumbag supreme syverson is
	that any improvements that can affect the alleged 'low latency'
	of the network gets ignored because 'low latency' is the only
	thing he cares about. 

	Too bad I didn't get to point out that the reason they want low
	latency is to be able to control drones...The kind of
	drones syverson and his supporters use to murder brown children
	for fun.

	Anyway, the fact that the 'hacker' and/or 'cypherpunk'
	'communities' are almost fully coopted by the US government
	is the first problem that should be addressed, before bothering
	with any technicalities.

 
	We are still wating for troll rysiek to comment on the current
	tor developments...unsurprinsigly.


> 
> I have suggested a failure to "tweak" their grant proposals/ begging,
> but in that case when the tweak was discovered by the funders, bad
> faith would have been shown to the superiors.
> 
> Witness also the subtly extreme rebukes against anyone who suggests
> using bittorrent over Tor - not by the head honcho email addys, but
> such suggestions consistently draw out a spitting snake in response.
> 
> Everyone is of course free to draw conclusions assuming good faith by
> all players to the greatest extent delusionable.

	lolol =)








From skquinn at rushpost.com  Tue Aug  2 22:49:57 2016
From: skquinn at rushpost.com (Shawn K. Quinn)
Date: Wed, 03 Aug 2016 00:49:57 -0500
Subject: Pay for Play, Influence Peddling, Tor and Hillary/Russia
In-Reply-To: <20160803024648.GC2616@x220-a02>
References: <579a62f6.ef24ed0a.805c6.9090@mx.google.com>
 <CAG2tMp4H8KSZVS75DqSaYw0omZ32_396J5AevqLqMbNpduP2ig@mail.gmail.com>
 <579a74a9.57a5370a.44210.a0e0@mx.google.com>
 <CAG2tMp6VMy4zWpmutTswZL5_iMkCa2jBsTpS=uFK4hWx-AnpTw@mail.gmail.com>
 <579bf47b.8d2a370a.c27ce.d1da@mx.google.com>
 <0a5bbe20-a784-7be5-7367-3318558289dd@riseup.net>
 <CAG2tMp6jgVKyWtT2fdTBfbt436O1Ms4adB=K5NnQ1uDup1hU6A@mail.gmail.com>
 <579e87bd.c124c80a.0b33.2d53@mx.google.com>
 <307060768.9885305.1470165329492.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com>
 <9d016c3093b978813549d537f89a9780@openmailbox.org>
 <20160803024648.GC2616@x220-a02>
Message-ID: <1470203397.4190.2.camel@moonpatrol>

On Wed, 2016-08-03 at 12:46 +1000, Zenaan Harkness wrote:
> Witness also the subtly extreme rebukes against anyone who suggests
> using bittorrent over Tor - not by the head honcho email addys, but
> such
> suggestions consistently draw out a spitting snake in response.

There is a good reason for this: such requests have the potential to
completely overwhelm the Tor network. If you really want to torrent
anonymously, get on I2P.


-- 
Shawn K. Quinn <skquinn at rushpost.com>





From jdb10987 at yahoo.com  Tue Aug  2 18:16:01 2016
From: jdb10987 at yahoo.com (jim bell)
Date: Wed, 3 Aug 2016 01:16:01 +0000 (UTC)
Subject: Three cheers for the NSA!
References: <200819824.832143.1470186961448.JavaMail.yahoo.ref@mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <200819824.832143.1470186961448.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com>

http://www.breitbart.com/jerusalem/2016/07/31/exclusive-nsa-architect-agency-clintons-deleted-emails/
PHILADELPHIA – The National Security Agency (NSA) has “all” of Hillary Clinton’s deleted emails and the FBI could gain access to them if they so desired, William Binney, a former highly placed NSA official, declared in a radio interview broadcast on Sunday.
Speaking as an analyst, Binney raised the possibility that the hack of the Democratic National Committee’s server was done not by Russia but by a disgruntled U.S. intelligence worker concerned about Clinton’s compromise of national security secrets via her personal email use.
Binney was an architect of the NSA’s surveillance program. He became a famed whistleblower when he resigned on October 31, 2001, after spending more than 30 years with the agency.
He was speaking on this reporter’s Sunday radio program, “Aaron Klein Investigative Radio,” broadcast on New York’s AM 970 The Answer and Philadelphia’s NewsTalk 990 AM.
Binney referenced testimony before the Senate Judiciary Committee in March 2011 by then-FBI Director Robert S. Mueller in which Meuller spoke of the FBI’s ability to access various secretive databases “to track down known and suspected terrorists.”
Stated Binney: “Now what he (Mueller) is talking about is going into the NSA database, which is shown of course in the (Edward) Snowden material released, which shows a direct access into the NSA database by the FBI and the CIA. Which there is no oversight of by the way. So that means that NSA and a number of agencies in the U.S. government also have those emails.”
[end of portion quoted]  
             Jim Bell
"It's an ill wind that blows no one good"
Oboe:  "It's an ill woodwind that no one blows good".
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From juan.g71 at gmail.com  Tue Aug  2 21:16:12 2016
From: juan.g71 at gmail.com (juan)
Date: Wed, 3 Aug 2016 01:16:12 -0300
Subject: Pay for Play, Influence Peddling, Tor and Hillary/Russia
In-Reply-To: <298402368.10776248.1470196812980.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com>
References: <579a62f6.ef24ed0a.805c6.9090@mx.google.com>
 <CAG2tMp4H8KSZVS75DqSaYw0omZ32_396J5AevqLqMbNpduP2ig@mail.gmail.com>
 <579a74a9.57a5370a.44210.a0e0@mx.google.com>
 <CAG2tMp6VMy4zWpmutTswZL5_iMkCa2jBsTpS=uFK4hWx-AnpTw@mail.gmail.com>
 <579bf47b.8d2a370a.c27ce.d1da@mx.google.com>
 <0a5bbe20-a784-7be5-7367-3318558289dd@riseup.net>
 <CAG2tMp6jgVKyWtT2fdTBfbt436O1Ms4adB=K5NnQ1uDup1hU6A@mail.gmail.com>
 <579e87bd.c124c80a.0b33.2d53@mx.google.com>
 <307060768.9885305.1470165329492.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com>
 <9d016c3093b978813549d537f89a9780@openmailbox.org>
 <20160803024648.GC2616@x220-a02>
 <298402368.10776248.1470196812980.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <57a16f17.7724ed0a.ae7a8.1f00@mx.google.com>

On Wed, 3 Aug 2016 04:00:12 +0000 (UTC)
jim bell <jdb10987 at yahoo.com> wrote:

> Perhaps the
> solution will be that the Tor project team will study how to insert
> "anti-bad-people"chaff into the Tor streams, increase the number of
> hops 

	The number of hops is irrelevant because the tor network fails
	'at the edges'. It doesn't matter how many times you bounce
	stuff inside the network since the traffic is 'correlated' when
	it enters/leaves the network.


> (more to confuse the "bad people"; they confuse the hell out of
> me!), etc.  Eventually, they will have to sadly announce that they
> haven't yet fully succeeded  in preventing"bad people" from using
> Tor, but they HAVE greatly improved security in various ways. 


	What makes you think that military contractors for the US
	military(i.e. tor) have any interest in improving the security
	of the enemies of the US gov't/military? 

	Tor works exactly as designed. It is a 'honeypot'. 




Jim Bell
> 
>   






From juan.g71 at gmail.com  Tue Aug  2 23:29:14 2016
From: juan.g71 at gmail.com (juan)
Date: Wed, 3 Aug 2016 03:29:14 -0300
Subject: Pay for Play, Influence Peddling, Tor and Hillary/Russia
In-Reply-To: <901642527.10137206.1470201666165.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com>
References: <579a62f6.ef24ed0a.805c6.9090@mx.google.com>
 <CAG2tMp4H8KSZVS75DqSaYw0omZ32_396J5AevqLqMbNpduP2ig@mail.gmail.com>
 <579a74a9.57a5370a.44210.a0e0@mx.google.com>
 <CAG2tMp6VMy4zWpmutTswZL5_iMkCa2jBsTpS=uFK4hWx-AnpTw@mail.gmail.com>
 <579bf47b.8d2a370a.c27ce.d1da@mx.google.com>
 <0a5bbe20-a784-7be5-7367-3318558289dd@riseup.net>
 <CAG2tMp6jgVKyWtT2fdTBfbt436O1Ms4adB=K5NnQ1uDup1hU6A@mail.gmail.com>
 <579e87bd.c124c80a.0b33.2d53@mx.google.com>
 <307060768.9885305.1470165329492.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com>
 <9d016c3093b978813549d537f89a9780@openmailbox.org>
 <20160803024648.GC2616@x220-a02>
 <298402368.10776248.1470196812980.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com>
 <57a16f17.7724ed0a.ae7a8.1f00@mx.google.com>
 <901642527.10137206.1470201666165.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <57a18e46.6239ed0a.d0e4b.28ed@mx.google.com>

On Wed, 3 Aug 2016 05:21:06 +0000 (UTC)
jim bell <jdb10987 at yahoo.com> wrote:

> PGP 1.0 also worked exactly
> as designed.  It was limited to keylengths of 1024 bits,as I recall,
> which no doubt Phil Zimmerman considered sufficient for a first
> attempt.. Eventually it was considered by others desireable to issue
> revisions allowing much-longer keylengths.

	25 years ago when pgp was released a 1024 bits key seemed
	reasonable. 


>  Does anybody claim that
> Zimmerman was intent on making ahoney-pot? 

	Zimmerman was never a US military contractor as far as I know
	and he didn't write pgp for the US military. 

	Quite the contrary, he was threatened by his government
	because of some 'export regulations' bullshit.

	

> Tor was/is a good start.
>  But it nevertheless should be improved 

	You did not address my point =)

	Why would the US military do anything that goes against their
	interests. The idea is absurd from a 'theoretical point of
	view, and, as it's to be expected, real world evidence
	corroborates the theory.

	Have you looked into things like maidsafe? Their funding at
	least seems a bit more in line with libertarian and cypherpunks
	principles.










From jdb10987 at yahoo.com  Tue Aug  2 21:00:12 2016
From: jdb10987 at yahoo.com (jim bell)
Date: Wed, 3 Aug 2016 04:00:12 +0000 (UTC)
Subject: Pay for Play, Influence Peddling, Tor and Hillary/Russia
In-Reply-To: <20160803024648.GC2616@x220-a02>
References: <579a62f6.ef24ed0a.805c6.9090@mx.google.com>
 <CAG2tMp4H8KSZVS75DqSaYw0omZ32_396J5AevqLqMbNpduP2ig@mail.gmail.com>
 <579a74a9.57a5370a.44210.a0e0@mx.google.com>
 <CAG2tMp6VMy4zWpmutTswZL5_iMkCa2jBsTpS=uFK4hWx-AnpTw@mail.gmail.com>
 <579bf47b.8d2a370a.c27ce.d1da@mx.google.com>
 <0a5bbe20-a784-7be5-7367-3318558289dd@riseup.net>
 <CAG2tMp6jgVKyWtT2fdTBfbt436O1Ms4adB=K5NnQ1uDup1hU6A@mail.gmail.com>
 <579e87bd.c124c80a.0b33.2d53@mx.google.com>
 <307060768.9885305.1470165329492.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com>
 <9d016c3093b978813549d537f89a9780@openmailbox.org>
 <20160803024648.GC2616@x220-a02>
Message-ID: <298402368.10776248.1470196812980.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com>



 From: Zenaan Harkness <zen at freedbms.net>
On Tue, Aug 02, 2016 at 06:51:03PM -0700, Spencer wrote:>> >jim bell:
>> >the lack of improvements over time

>> This seems to stem more from a misplaced understanding of what design is, on
>> the developers side, since non-protocol improvements get ignored, too.
>They have explicitly stated that certain features, including chaff fill
>packets at the protocol layer, have been not granted funding.
It occurs to me that this may reflect their misunderstanding of the process.   (Misunderstandingby sympathetic employees of the Tor project., or possibly they were misled.)    I have no doubt that Congress would be capable of writing a funding bill for Tor thatis sufficiently specific and detailed to absolutely prohibit any improvements toTor.  However, I strongly doubt that the funding is limited in that way.  
Rather, I suspect that the funding doesn't explicitly state within the grant of funding that cites chaff fill, etc. is covered.  If the Executive branch WANTED to do those projects, theywould simply direct some of their funding to those projects.  Instead, I think the higher-upsmay be deliberately misleading the lower-level people about what they could do,if they decided to do it.
I see that quite recently, Congress has asked them to find out ways to prevent "bad people"from using Tor.  (Probably without defining the term "bad people" sufficiently.   Maybe we are all, automatically, "bad people.")    https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=1&cad=rja&uact=8&ved=0ahUKEwjd17KCqqTOAhUQz2MKHZXPByMQFggeMAA&url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.deepdotweb.com%2F2016%2F07%2F13%2Fsenate-funding-bill-asks-ways-stop-bad-people-using-tor%2F&usg=AFQjCNEnkvhs7R-alh5rfl3oUrB0vykdZw&sig2=LKEkgB5zBPHVAEEN9iVURA
Notice that the goal is very poorly defined, so the task is inherently vague and the solution will be similarly vague and imprecise, providing much cover for the entire project.
 Perhaps the solution will be that the Tor project team will study how to insert "anti-bad-people"chaff into the Tor streams, increase the number of hops (more to confuse the "bad people"; they confuse the hell out of me!), etc.  Eventually, they will have to sadly announce that they haven't yet fully succeeded  in preventing"bad people" from using Tor, but they HAVE greatly improved security in various ways.
             Jim Bell

  
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From jdb10987 at yahoo.com  Tue Aug  2 22:21:06 2016
From: jdb10987 at yahoo.com (jim bell)
Date: Wed, 3 Aug 2016 05:21:06 +0000 (UTC)
Subject: Pay for Play, Influence Peddling, Tor and Hillary/Russia
In-Reply-To: <57a16f17.7724ed0a.ae7a8.1f00@mx.google.com>
References: <579a62f6.ef24ed0a.805c6.9090@mx.google.com>
 <CAG2tMp4H8KSZVS75DqSaYw0omZ32_396J5AevqLqMbNpduP2ig@mail.gmail.com>
 <579a74a9.57a5370a.44210.a0e0@mx.google.com>
 <CAG2tMp6VMy4zWpmutTswZL5_iMkCa2jBsTpS=uFK4hWx-AnpTw@mail.gmail.com>
 <579bf47b.8d2a370a.c27ce.d1da@mx.google.com>
 <0a5bbe20-a784-7be5-7367-3318558289dd@riseup.net>
 <CAG2tMp6jgVKyWtT2fdTBfbt436O1Ms4adB=K5NnQ1uDup1hU6A@mail.gmail.com>
 <579e87bd.c124c80a.0b33.2d53@mx.google.com>
 <307060768.9885305.1470165329492.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com>
 <9d016c3093b978813549d537f89a9780@openmailbox.org>
 <20160803024648.GC2616@x220-a02>
 <298402368.10776248.1470196812980.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com>
 <57a16f17.7724ed0a.ae7a8.1f00@mx.google.com>
Message-ID: <901642527.10137206.1470201666165.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com>



 From: juan <juan.g71 at gmail.com>
 To: cypherpunks at cpunks.org 
 Sent: Tuesday, August 2, 2016 9:16 PM
 Subject: Re: Pay for Play, Influence Peddling, Tor and Hillary/Russia
   
On Wed, 3 Aug 2016 04:00:12 +0000 (UTC)
jim bell <jdb10987 at yahoo.com> wrote:

>>> Perhaps the
>>> solution will be that the Tor project team will study how to insert
>>> "anti-bad-people"chaff into the Tor streams, increase the number of
>>> hops 

   > The number of hops is irrelevant because the tor network fails
   > 'at the edges'. It doesn't matter how many times you bounce
   > stuff inside the network since the traffic is 'correlated' when
   > it enters/leaves the network.
I wish I knew far more about Tor.  But it seems to me that you are describing one kind of attack, one that would be effective against a site sending/receiving a large number of packets.  Yes, that's significant, but I think if the sender tendedto limit the packets, it would be much harder to correlate in the way you describe.  Maybe others who know more will contribute a comment.I think people would like to guard against the possibility that these transfer siteswere somehow malicious, collecting data for correlations.  Having two transfersites rather than one would make the process less susceptible to that weakness.


>> (more to confuse the "bad people"; they confuse the hell out of
>> me!), etc.  Eventually, they will have to sadly announce that they
>> haven't yet fully succeeded  in preventing"bad people" from using
>> Tor, but they HAVE greatly improved security in various ways. 


 >   What makes you think that military contractors for the US
 >    military(i.e. tor) have any interest in improving the security >   of the enemies of the US gov't/military? 
 >   Tor works exactly as designed. It is a 'honeypot'.
PGP 1.0 also worked exactly as designed.  It was limited to keylengths of 1024 bits,as I recall, which no doubt Phil Zimmerman considered sufficient for a first attempt..  Eventually it was considered by others desireable to issue revisions allowing much-longer keylengths.  Does anybody claim that Zimmerman was intent on making ahoney-pot?  
Tor was/is a good start.  But it nevertheless should be improved
                   Jim Bell  
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From skquinn at rushpost.com  Wed Aug  3 04:28:47 2016
From: skquinn at rushpost.com (Shawn K. Quinn)
Date: Wed, 03 Aug 2016 06:28:47 -0500
Subject: Pay for Play, Influence Peddling, Tor and Hillary/Russia
In-Reply-To: <20160803062326.GD2616@x220-a02>
References: <579a74a9.57a5370a.44210.a0e0@mx.google.com>
 <CAG2tMp6VMy4zWpmutTswZL5_iMkCa2jBsTpS=uFK4hWx-AnpTw@mail.gmail.com>
 <579bf47b.8d2a370a.c27ce.d1da@mx.google.com>
 <0a5bbe20-a784-7be5-7367-3318558289dd@riseup.net>
 <CAG2tMp6jgVKyWtT2fdTBfbt436O1Ms4adB=K5NnQ1uDup1hU6A@mail.gmail.com>
 <579e87bd.c124c80a.0b33.2d53@mx.google.com>
 <307060768.9885305.1470165329492.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com>
 <9d016c3093b978813549d537f89a9780@openmailbox.org>
 <20160803024648.GC2616@x220-a02> <1470203397.4190.2.camel@moonpatrol>
 <20160803062326.GD2616@x220-a02>
Message-ID: <1470223727.4190.9.camel@moonpatrol>

On Wed, 2016-08-03 at 16:23 +1000, Zenaan Harkness wrote:
> On Wed, Aug 03, 2016 at 12:49:57AM -0500, Shawn K. Quinn wrote:
> > On Wed, 2016-08-03 at 12:46 +1000, Zenaan Harkness wrote:
> > > Witness also the subtly extreme rebukes against anyone who suggests
> > > using bittorrent over Tor - not by the head honcho email addys, but
> > > such suggestions consistently draw out a spitting snake in response.
> > 
> > There is a good reason for this: such requests have the potential to
> > completely overwhelm the Tor network.
> 
> So sayeth the sooth sayer, blandly parroting Tor Inc propaganda.

Listen, twit, I work for neither the Tor Project nor the US Government
and it is deceptive to imply that I do (like you have). This is not
propaganda. There are good technical and ethical reasons to not use Tor
for BitTorrent data. It's the same reason that you're okay (from a
social, ethical standpoint anyway) filling up your water bottle from the
river, you're okay getting water for your whole campsite with 10 people
from the river, but pulling a Nestlé and scooping the river dry is not
(even if you're not selling the water at a profit).

> And always be highly cautious of all who proclaim authority.

I don't proclaim authority. I just give advice and spread the truth.

-- 
Shawn K. Quinn <skquinn at rushpost.com>





From rayzer at riseup.net  Wed Aug  3 07:45:11 2016
From: rayzer at riseup.net (Rayzer)
Date: Wed, 3 Aug 2016 07:45:11 -0700
Subject: Pay for Play, Influence Peddling, Tor and Hillary/Russia
In-Reply-To: <298402368.10776248.1470196812980.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com>
References: <579a62f6.ef24ed0a.805c6.9090@mx.google.com>
 <CAG2tMp4H8KSZVS75DqSaYw0omZ32_396J5AevqLqMbNpduP2ig@mail.gmail.com>
 <579a74a9.57a5370a.44210.a0e0@mx.google.com>
 <CAG2tMp6VMy4zWpmutTswZL5_iMkCa2jBsTpS=uFK4hWx-AnpTw@mail.gmail.com>
 <579bf47b.8d2a370a.c27ce.d1da@mx.google.com>
 <0a5bbe20-a784-7be5-7367-3318558289dd@riseup.net>
 <CAG2tMp6jgVKyWtT2fdTBfbt436O1Ms4adB=K5NnQ1uDup1hU6A@mail.gmail.com>
 <579e87bd.c124c80a.0b33.2d53@mx.google.com>
 <307060768.9885305.1470165329492.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com>
 <9d016c3093b978813549d537f89a9780@openmailbox.org>
 <20160803024648.GC2616@x220-a02>
 <298402368.10776248.1470196812980.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <a2f87edb-5b32-55f3-ad93-dd761128017d@riseup.net>

On 08/02/2016 09:00 PM, jim bell wrote:


> “…the committee requires that spend plans submitted by the Department
> of State and BBG pursuant to section 7078(c) of the act include a
> description of safeguards to ensure that circumvention technologies
> are not used for illicit purposes, such as coordinating terrorist
> activities or online sexual exploitation of children,” 


I think that's pretty specific about what they want, and broad about the
technology... "circumvention technologies".

If I were managing the project I'd be limiting improvements that would
allow such things and it wouldn't be secret or underhanded (which is why
I never aspired to that sort of position... my underhand toss is lousy),
but unless there's something in the full bill in addition to that, it
doesn't require deprecation of existing code in the product. Because
those things were already paid for and done. It does put the product at
a disadvantage against software meant to undo tor's security in the long
run however, and government excel at doing things that have their effect
in 'the long run'.

Rr



>
>
> *From:* Zenaan Harkness <zen at freedbms.net>
> On Tue, Aug 02, 2016 at 06:51:03PM -0700, Spencer wrote:
> >> >jim bell:
> >> >the lack of improvements over time
>
> >> This seems to stem more from a misplaced understanding of what
> design is, on
> >> the developers side, since non-protocol improvements get ignored, too.
>
> >They have explicitly stated that certain features, including chaff fill
> >packets at the protocol layer, have been not granted funding.
>
> It occurs to me that this may reflect their misunderstanding of the
> process.   (Misunderstanding
> by sympathetic employees of the Tor project., or possibly they were
> misled.)    I have 
> no doubt that Congress would be capable of writing a funding bill for
> Tor that
> is sufficiently specific and detailed to absolutely prohibit any
> improvements to
> Tor.  However, I strongly doubt that the funding is limited in that way.  
>
> Rather, I suspect that the funding doesn't explicitly state within the
> grant of funding that 
> cites chaff fill, etc. is covered.  If the Executive branch WANTED to
> do those projects, they
> would simply direct some of their funding to those projects.  Instead,
> I think the higher-ups
> may be deliberately misleading the lower-level people about what they
> could do,
> if they decided to do it.
>
> I see that quite recently, Congress has asked them to find out ways to
> prevent "bad people"
> from using Tor.  (Probably without defining the term "bad people"
> sufficiently.   Maybe we are 
> all, automatically, "bad people.") 
>  
>  https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=1&cad=rja&uact=8&ved=0ahUKEwjd17KCqqTOAhUQz2MKHZXPByMQFggeMAA&url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.deepdotweb.com%2F2016%2F07%2F13%2Fsenate-funding-bill-asks-ways-stop-bad-people-using-tor%2F&usg=AFQjCNEnkvhs7R-alh5rfl3oUrB0vykdZw&sig2=LKEkgB5zBPHVAEEN9iVURA
>
> Notice that the goal is very poorly defined, so the task is inherently
> vague and the solution will
>  be similarly vague and imprecise, providing much cover for the entire
> project.


> “…the committee requires that spend plans submitted by the Department
> of State and BBG pursuant to section 7078(c) of the act include a
> description of safeguards to ensure that circumvention technologies
> are not used for illicit purposes, such as coordinating terrorist
> activities or online sexual exploitation of children,” 


I think that's pretty specific and If I were managing the project I'd be
limiting improvements that would allow such things, but unless there's
something in the full bill in addition to that, it doesn't require
deprecation of existing code in the product. Because those things were
already paid for and done.


Rr
>
>  Perhaps the solution will be that the Tor project team will study how
> to insert "anti-bad-people"
> chaff into the Tor streams, increase the number of hops (more to
> confuse the "bad people"; they 
> confuse the hell out of me!), etc. 
>  Eventually, they will have to sadly announce that they haven't yet
> fully succeeded  in preventing
> "bad people" from using Tor, but they HAVE greatly improved security
> in various ways.
>
>              Jim Bell
>
>


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From rayzer at riseup.net  Wed Aug  3 07:52:40 2016
From: rayzer at riseup.net (Rayzer)
Date: Wed, 3 Aug 2016 07:52:40 -0700
Subject: Pay for Play, Influence Peddling, Tor and Hillary/Russia
In-Reply-To: <57a16f17.7724ed0a.ae7a8.1f00@mx.google.com>
References: <579a62f6.ef24ed0a.805c6.9090@mx.google.com>
 <CAG2tMp4H8KSZVS75DqSaYw0omZ32_396J5AevqLqMbNpduP2ig@mail.gmail.com>
 <579a74a9.57a5370a.44210.a0e0@mx.google.com>
 <CAG2tMp6VMy4zWpmutTswZL5_iMkCa2jBsTpS=uFK4hWx-AnpTw@mail.gmail.com>
 <579bf47b.8d2a370a.c27ce.d1da@mx.google.com>
 <0a5bbe20-a784-7be5-7367-3318558289dd@riseup.net>
 <CAG2tMp6jgVKyWtT2fdTBfbt436O1Ms4adB=K5NnQ1uDup1hU6A@mail.gmail.com>
 <579e87bd.c124c80a.0b33.2d53@mx.google.com>
 <307060768.9885305.1470165329492.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com>
 <9d016c3093b978813549d537f89a9780@openmailbox.org>
 <20160803024648.GC2616@x220-a02>
 <298402368.10776248.1470196812980.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com>
 <57a16f17.7724ed0a.ae7a8.1f00@mx.google.com>
Message-ID: <8c8f89cc-9e12-494b-5abb-550c649fb03c@riseup.net>

On 08/02/2016 09:16 PM, juan wrote:



> 	Tor works exactly as designed. It is a 'honeypot'. 

Prove intent if you're going to make that claim.

(Crickets chirping...)

It's a FLAG YOU WAVE that lets them 'kettle' you into a honeypot if your
security is lax.

Which is why I say we need millions of "flag wavers" to assist in the
obscuring process.

No matter the technology. No matter the code. If you are the only person
using it and the government, for whatever reason doesn't want you to,
you're a dead duck eventually.

Rr


> On Wed, 3 Aug 2016 04:00:12 +0000 (UTC)
> jim bell <jdb10987 at yahoo.com> wrote:
>
>> Perhaps the
>> solution will be that the Tor project team will study how to insert
>> "anti-bad-people"chaff into the Tor streams, increase the number of
>> hops 
> 	The number of hops is irrelevant because the tor network fails
> 	'at the edges'. It doesn't matter how many times you bounce
> 	stuff inside the network since the traffic is 'correlated' when
> 	it enters/leaves the network.
>
>
>> (more to confuse the "bad people"; they confuse the hell out of
>> me!), etc.  Eventually, they will have to sadly announce that they
>> haven't yet fully succeeded  in preventing"bad people" from using
>> Tor, but they HAVE greatly improved security in various ways. 
>
> 	What makes you think that military contractors for the US
> 	military(i.e. tor) have any interest in improving the security
> 	of the enemies of the US gov't/military? 
>
> 	Tor works exactly as designed. It is a 'honeypot'. 
>
>
>
>
> Jim Bell
>>   
>
>


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From spencerone at openmailbox.org  Wed Aug  3 09:48:42 2016
From: spencerone at openmailbox.org (Spencer)
Date: Wed, 03 Aug 2016 09:48:42 -0700
Subject: [OT] Bios Level USB Stick Protection
In-Reply-To: <98591470241163@web8m.yandex.ru>
References: <98591470241163@web8m.yandex.ru>
Message-ID: <054a4eb4e98a046fb5ec413295b704c1@openmailbox.org>

Hi,

> 
> Bastiani Fortress:
> tool that might jeopardize me
> 

Your deception XD

But for realz, the OS may not wipe the RAM as expected.

Wordlife,
Spencer








From guninski at guninski.com  Wed Aug  3 00:32:37 2016
From: guninski at guninski.com (Georgi Guninski)
Date: Wed, 3 Aug 2016 10:32:37 +0300
Subject: Pay for Play, Influence Peddling, Tor and Hillary/Russia
In-Reply-To: <57a18e46.6239ed0a.d0e4b.28ed@mx.google.com>
References: <0a5bbe20-a784-7be5-7367-3318558289dd@riseup.net>
 <CAG2tMp6jgVKyWtT2fdTBfbt436O1Ms4adB=K5NnQ1uDup1hU6A@mail.gmail.com>
 <579e87bd.c124c80a.0b33.2d53@mx.google.com>
 <307060768.9885305.1470165329492.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com>
 <9d016c3093b978813549d537f89a9780@openmailbox.org>
 <20160803024648.GC2616@x220-a02>
 <298402368.10776248.1470196812980.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com>
 <57a16f17.7724ed0a.ae7a8.1f00@mx.google.com>
 <901642527.10137206.1470201666165.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com>
 <57a18e46.6239ed0a.d0e4b.28ed@mx.google.com>
Message-ID: <20160803073237.GA687@sivokote.iziade.m$>

On Wed, Aug 03, 2016 at 03:29:14AM -0300, juan wrote:
> On Wed, 3 Aug 2016 05:21:06 +0000 (UTC)
> jim bell <jdb10987 at yahoo.com> wrote:
> 
> > PGP 1.0 also worked exactly
> > as designed.  It was limited to keylengths of 1024 bits,as I recall,
> > which no doubt Phil Zimmerman considered sufficient for a first
> > attempt.. Eventually it was considered by others desireable to issue
> > revisions allowing much-longer keylengths.
> 
> 	25 years ago when pgp was released a 1024 bits key seemed
> 	reasonable. 
>

Strongly disagree. Allowing longer keys doesn't hurt, except for more
resources (and possibly false sense of security).

History shows that in crypto what _seems_ true might not be.

Very large upper bound is reasonable for DOS protection.

Even very fast algorithms take prohibitively long time on
sufficiently large input. I suspect building 1024/2048 qubit quantum computer
is much easier that building 100K qubit one.




From zen at freedbms.net  Tue Aug  2 17:51:30 2016
From: zen at freedbms.net (Zenaan Harkness)
Date: Wed, 3 Aug 2016 10:51:30 +1000
Subject: FM Corporations/ businesses/ entitities
In-Reply-To: <CAHKdp-kxQf7CnCx1xSTCDEcELn7Cs4-vtkrpA5Oxqw1_5B8vRQ@mail.gmail.com>
References: <20160730013607.GB17721@x220-a02>
 <CAHKdp-kxQf7CnCx1xSTCDEcELn7Cs4-vtkrpA5Oxqw1_5B8vRQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <20160803005130.GA2616@x220-a02>

On Tue, Aug 02, 2016 at 08:36:24PM +0000, Sean Lynch wrote:
> On Fri, Jul 29, 2016 at 6:51 PM Zenaan Harkness <zen at freedbms.net> wrote:
> > On Fri, Jul 29, 2016 at 09:45:40PM -0300, juan wrote:
> > > On Fri, 29 Jul 2016 13:43:12 +0300
> > > Georgi Guninski <guninski at guninski.com> wrote:

> > one another as we so choose. So in Georgi's case here,
> >
> >  FM corporation ~= business ~= economic activity association
> >
> > And of course, where there is no government, there shall be no
> > "corporations" as created by governments. Any group calling themselves a
> > "corporation" would have a meaning different from the current meaning,
> > thus "FM corporation".
> >
> 
> Even without a government, I think an anarchic society will still need
> institutions to function,

It is certainly natural for humans to associate for mutual benefit.


> even if those institutions are entirely
> voluntary. I can imagine sets of institutions that would allow corporations
> in a similar sense to how they exist now, i.e. limited liability and some
> form of "personhood."

'limited liability' means that the owners of the company cannot be
personally sued.

An anarchic company only exists by those who freely agree to it, and
someone wanting to attach an individual (legally, financially,
personally) may not have agreed to be part of that company, may
vehemently disagree with "the corporate veil" of protection by "statute
fiction".

It's a different way of thinking - we are so schooled in current
'realities' (real fictions, or shared common delusions) of "Western
style democratic fascist government".


> The most likely such institution would be some kind
> of court system where, in order to have access to the court as a means of
> seeking restitution, you must agree not to go outside it to go after any
> other participant, and must not have done so before.

Your initial wording is fine on the face, but whilst my "aggrieved self"
might be willing to agree to 'court' arbitration, "limited liability
fictional entity" may well not even make sense, and yet in the current
world we are 'bound' by government statutes giving that real protection
to those owners/ directors of that fictional entity.


> I see revolutions as a symptom of a broken society. Reform, or evolution,
> is certainly preferable.

Revolution arises when too few attempt to stand in peaceful (or other)
political protests, in personal non-compliance (driver licenses, vehicle
rego, paying tax to the war machine, not running off in the army to
shoot brown people) and the situation deteriorates to the point that the
ideological extremists collectively agree that there is no option but
revolution.

Unfortunately, revolution is the usual way of things, since the majority
are too shit cowardly to rock any boat, even a dinghy cause "gotta go to
the footy this weekend", "gotta pay the mortgage/ car loan", "gotta
live my useless irrelevant life", when deep down it is truly fear,
mostly unacknowledged fear.


> > We must always remember it is never the arm chair pundit ("oh I wish our
> > democracy elected representatives actually represented us") crowd who
> > will change the world.
> >
> > So historically, revolutions seem to be more a devolution than an
> > evolution of the status quo. If you have counter examples, please
> > highlight them now.
> 
> The French and English revolutions both resulted, after a while, in better
> societies than they started in, as far as I can tell. The Haitian
> revolution ended slavery there. I don't consider the American revolution,
> on the other hand, to be a counter example, though it clearly inspired the
> French revolution. Not to say that the French revolution and other reforms
> of European monarchies wouldn't have happened anyway.

As I've said, by the time the ex-convict Aussies wanted more control
from the "Crown", the English monarchy was well and truly on the page -
a genuinely peaceful transition (yes, not for the Aboriginies being
slaughtered since 100 years prior).


> One of the pieces of evidence used against Ross Ulbricht was a post of his
> in which he stated, "I am creating an economic simulation to give people a
> first-hand experience of what it would be like to live in a world without
> the systemic use of force." Whether or not Silk Road was that "simulation",
> the general statement is exactly what we need to do, in my opinion. Create
> systems of "law" and "governance" that do not require the use of force.

Although I prefer revolution to evolution, I do not agree that force has
no place.

Force has different dimensions too - we think superficially about
physical and violent force. But consider that our white Western
oligarch's use the courts to force us to comply with an endless litany
of evil and unfair laws (yes they are backed up by police with guns, but
10,000 people just saying "no" is a challenging number of people to put
in jail in a two month time frame - for not paying tax for example).


> These systems do not have to be all-encompassing; they can be small and
> narrow in scope. They just have to make it so people don't feel like they
> have to resort to government (i.e. force) to achieve their ends.

There is obvious low hanging fruit - eg. legalising all plants and
substance ingestion by (naturally experimental and contrarian and
rebellious) humans. I heard Portugal became an example of this to a
degree, but perhaps the person saying this to me mixed it up with
Amsterdam.


> Security of property and computer systems is an area that's pretty ripe for
> non-government solutions.

Sorry, in most cases today, it is government legislation/ statutes/
protectionism which causes the problem.

For example, try establishing a minimum cost wireless internet access
provision 'FM enterprise' - even Google is having trouble against the
telecomms giants, and Google has plenty of money for lawyers.

One has to go -really- grass roots to avoid the despotism of government
- neighbour to neighbour/ N2N community mesh networks may be possible to
do in the face of corporations and governments (who naturally oppose and
gang up together).


Regarding "private" networking, I have seen no comms protocol research
showing that you can achieve anonymity in the face of the global
passive/active adversary (GPA), which we know the western "5 eyes"
governments and spy agencies are.


Longer term, we need our own physical N2N mesh network.




From rayzer at riseup.net  Wed Aug  3 10:58:49 2016
From: rayzer at riseup.net (Rayzer)
Date: Wed, 3 Aug 2016 10:58:49 -0700
Subject: [OT] Bios Level USB Stick Protection
In-Reply-To: <054a4eb4e98a046fb5ec413295b704c1@openmailbox.org>
References: <98591470241163@web8m.yandex.ru>
 <054a4eb4e98a046fb5ec413295b704c1@openmailbox.org>
Message-ID: <4b6b112e-1654-48d4-bea6-1fcf41b4881a@riseup.net>



On 08/03/2016 09:48 AM, Spencer wrote:
> Hi,
>
>>
>> Bastiani Fortress:
>> tool that might jeopardize me
>>
>
> Your deception XD
>
> But for realz, the OS may not wipe the RAM as expected.
>
> Wordlife,
> Spencer
>


Off the top, consider Tails. You can set up a persistent volume on the
stick to get at the code later and it TRIES to wipe memory when you shut
tails down. It makes no use of the machine's drive so there's nothing
there, BUT any device being plugged into the computer's USB port is
probably logged somewhere with whatever details can be obtained. My
tails drive, when plugged in and not in use shows as an unmounted 5.4
gigabyte encrypted volume in xfce mint linux. They'll probably see at
least that much information.

Rr

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From zen at freedbms.net  Tue Aug  2 18:54:45 2016
From: zen at freedbms.net (Zenaan Harkness)
Date: Wed, 3 Aug 2016 11:54:45 +1000
Subject: FM Corporations/ businesses/ entitities
In-Reply-To: <20160803005130.GA2616@x220-a02>
References: <20160730013607.GB17721@x220-a02>
 <CAHKdp-kxQf7CnCx1xSTCDEcELn7Cs4-vtkrpA5Oxqw1_5B8vRQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <20160803005130.GA2616@x220-a02>
Message-ID: <20160803015445.GB2616@x220-a02>

On Wed, Aug 03, 2016 at 10:51:30AM +1000, Zenaan Harkness wrote:
> An anarchic company only exists by those who freely agree to it, and
> someone wanting to attach an individual (legally, financially,
s/attach/attack 'legally' or claim damages/




From zen at freedbms.net  Tue Aug  2 19:46:48 2016
From: zen at freedbms.net (Zenaan Harkness)
Date: Wed, 3 Aug 2016 12:46:48 +1000
Subject: Pay for Play, Influence Peddling, Tor and Hillary/Russia
In-Reply-To: <9d016c3093b978813549d537f89a9780@openmailbox.org>
References: <579a62f6.ef24ed0a.805c6.9090@mx.google.com>
 <CAG2tMp4H8KSZVS75DqSaYw0omZ32_396J5AevqLqMbNpduP2ig@mail.gmail.com>
 <579a74a9.57a5370a.44210.a0e0@mx.google.com>
 <CAG2tMp6VMy4zWpmutTswZL5_iMkCa2jBsTpS=uFK4hWx-AnpTw@mail.gmail.com>
 <579bf47b.8d2a370a.c27ce.d1da@mx.google.com>
 <0a5bbe20-a784-7be5-7367-3318558289dd@riseup.net>
 <CAG2tMp6jgVKyWtT2fdTBfbt436O1Ms4adB=K5NnQ1uDup1hU6A@mail.gmail.com>
 <579e87bd.c124c80a.0b33.2d53@mx.google.com>
 <307060768.9885305.1470165329492.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com>
 <9d016c3093b978813549d537f89a9780@openmailbox.org>
Message-ID: <20160803024648.GC2616@x220-a02>

On Tue, Aug 02, 2016 at 06:51:03PM -0700, Spencer wrote:
> Hi,
> 
> >
> >jim bell:
> >the lack of improvements over time
> >
> 
> This seems to stem more from a misplaced understanding of what design is, on
> the developers side, since non-protocol improvements get ignored, too.

They have explicitly stated that certain features, including chaff fill
packets at the protocol layer, have been not granted funding.

I have suggested a failure to "tweak" their grant proposals/ begging,
but in that case when the tweak was discovered by the funders, bad faith
would have been shown to the superiors.

Witness also the subtly extreme rebukes against anyone who suggests
using bittorrent over Tor - not by the head honcho email addys, but such
suggestions consistently draw out a spitting snake in response.

Everyone is of course free to draw conclusions assuming good faith by
all players to the greatest extent delusionable.




From mlp at upstandinghackers.com  Wed Aug  3 04:23:04 2016
From: mlp at upstandinghackers.com (Meredith L. Patterson)
Date: Wed, 3 Aug 2016 13:23:04 +0200
Subject: Pay for Play, Influence Peddling, Tor and Hillary/Russia
In-Reply-To: <1470203397.4190.2.camel@moonpatrol>
References: <579a74a9.57a5370a.44210.a0e0@mx.google.com>
 <CAG2tMp6VMy4zWpmutTswZL5_iMkCa2jBsTpS=uFK4hWx-AnpTw@mail.gmail.com>
 <579bf47b.8d2a370a.c27ce.d1da@mx.google.com>
 <0a5bbe20-a784-7be5-7367-3318558289dd@riseup.net>
 <CAG2tMp6jgVKyWtT2fdTBfbt436O1Ms4adB=K5NnQ1uDup1hU6A@mail.gmail.com>
 <579e87bd.c124c80a.0b33.2d53@mx.google.com>
 <307060768.9885305.1470165329492.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com>
 <9d016c3093b978813549d537f89a9780@openmailbox.org>
 <20160803024648.GC2616@x220-a02>
 <1470203397.4190.2.camel@moonpatrol>
Message-ID: <20160803112304.GB23027@albert.upstandinghackers.com>

On Wed, Aug 03, 2016 at 12:49:57AM -0500, Shawn K. Quinn wrote:
> On Wed, 2016-08-03 at 12:46 +1000, Zenaan Harkness wrote:
> > Witness also the subtly extreme rebukes against anyone who suggests
> > using bittorrent over Tor - not by the head honcho email addys, but
> > such
> > suggestions consistently draw out a spitting snake in response.
> 
> There is a good reason for this: such requests have the potential to
> completely overwhelm the Tor network. If you really want to torrent
> anonymously, get on I2P.

There's an even better reason for this: BitTorrent leaks your IP. What
good does onion routing do you if the exit node can see where you are?

If you want to use BitTorrent without revealing your IP, get a VPN.

--mlp




From guninski at guninski.com  Wed Aug  3 04:16:01 2016
From: guninski at guninski.com (Georgi Guninski)
Date: Wed, 3 Aug 2016 14:16:01 +0300
Subject: FM Corporations/ businesses/ entitities
In-Reply-To: <20160803092946.GE2616@x220-a02>
References: <20160730013607.GB17721@x220-a02>
 <04bfae7a-2de4-63e7-3adb-9bd54001d274@pilobilus.net>
 <20160803092946.GE2616@x220-a02>
Message-ID: <20160803111601.GB687@sivokote.iziade.m$>

Dude, your main critical error is that you consider people "honest
actors" or in other words "rational".

IIRC I trolled juan about this in another thread.

People (AKA sheeple) are just meat to the oligarchs that will survive
the next revolution.  They are easy to manipulate, eating the most
delicious shit the election offers them.





From grarpamp at gmail.com  Wed Aug  3 12:59:27 2016
From: grarpamp at gmail.com (grarpamp)
Date: Wed, 3 Aug 2016 15:59:27 -0400
Subject: Pay for Play, Influence Peddling, Tor and Hillary/Russia
In-Reply-To: <1470203397.4190.2.camel@moonpatrol>
References: <579a62f6.ef24ed0a.805c6.9090@mx.google.com>
 <CAG2tMp4H8KSZVS75DqSaYw0omZ32_396J5AevqLqMbNpduP2ig@mail.gmail.com>
 <579a74a9.57a5370a.44210.a0e0@mx.google.com>
 <CAG2tMp6VMy4zWpmutTswZL5_iMkCa2jBsTpS=uFK4hWx-AnpTw@mail.gmail.com>
 <579bf47b.8d2a370a.c27ce.d1da@mx.google.com>
 <0a5bbe20-a784-7be5-7367-3318558289dd@riseup.net>
 <CAG2tMp6jgVKyWtT2fdTBfbt436O1Ms4adB=K5NnQ1uDup1hU6A@mail.gmail.com>
 <579e87bd.c124c80a.0b33.2d53@mx.google.com>
 <307060768.9885305.1470165329492.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com>
 <9d016c3093b978813549d537f89a9780@openmailbox.org>
 <20160803024648.GC2616@x220-a02>
 <1470203397.4190.2.camel@moonpatrol>
Message-ID: <CAD2Ti28OkNPSk7Gm1ENxLoEo+R6pkbZ2Ybi8Tssgt6GCO39vCQ@mail.gmail.com>

On 8/3/16, Shawn K. Quinn <skquinn at rushpost.com> wrote:
> On Wed, 2016-08-03 at 12:46 +1000, Zenaan Harkness wrote:
>> using bittorrent over Tor
>> such
>> suggestions consistently draw out a spitting snake in response.
>
> There is a good reason for this: such requests have the potential to
> completely overwhelm the Tor network.

Anything can overwhelm anything. There's not orders of magnitude
more 'overwhelmy' tech that tanks specifically to torrenting within tor
than there is in i2p, phantom, gnunet, etc.

Don't confuse tor and its people trying to advertise itself as
a network only for certain fundamentalist use cases, with
tor tech actually being able to support any random use case
you can successfully push down its pipes. Tor sucks
by only supporting TCP, but with onioncat you can push
whatever you want over it.

Tor has stated they'd look at censoring abusive use
according to whatever their definition of abuse may be
(such as by introducing throttling code in the clients / EG's).
That's doubletalk and not a very resistant network then.
These are open networks, use them as you see fit.
If you don't, sooner or later, someone else, including the
masses, criminals and adversaries, will. And if you happen to
expose some flaw in tech or policy along the way, all the better.

> If you really want to torrent anonymously, get on I2P.

In this context, no, just run a node in whatever network
makes you happy such that you give back resources
matching your own use and impact upon that network.

If you and your friends are a bunch of cheapass leeching
fucks, yes, you'll overwhelm anything.




From zen at freedbms.net  Tue Aug  2 23:23:26 2016
From: zen at freedbms.net (Zenaan Harkness)
Date: Wed, 3 Aug 2016 16:23:26 +1000
Subject: Pay for Play, Influence Peddling, Tor and Hillary/Russia
In-Reply-To: <1470203397.4190.2.camel@moonpatrol>
References: <579a74a9.57a5370a.44210.a0e0@mx.google.com>
 <CAG2tMp6VMy4zWpmutTswZL5_iMkCa2jBsTpS=uFK4hWx-AnpTw@mail.gmail.com>
 <579bf47b.8d2a370a.c27ce.d1da@mx.google.com>
 <0a5bbe20-a784-7be5-7367-3318558289dd@riseup.net>
 <CAG2tMp6jgVKyWtT2fdTBfbt436O1Ms4adB=K5NnQ1uDup1hU6A@mail.gmail.com>
 <579e87bd.c124c80a.0b33.2d53@mx.google.com>
 <307060768.9885305.1470165329492.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com>
 <9d016c3093b978813549d537f89a9780@openmailbox.org>
 <20160803024648.GC2616@x220-a02>
 <1470203397.4190.2.camel@moonpatrol>
Message-ID: <20160803062326.GD2616@x220-a02>

On Wed, Aug 03, 2016 at 12:49:57AM -0500, Shawn K. Quinn wrote:
> On Wed, 2016-08-03 at 12:46 +1000, Zenaan Harkness wrote:
> > Witness also the subtly extreme rebukes against anyone who suggests
> > using bittorrent over Tor - not by the head honcho email addys, but
> > such
> > suggestions consistently draw out a spitting snake in response.
> 
> There is a good reason for this: such requests have the potential to
> completely overwhelm the Tor network.

So sayeth the sooth sayer, blandly parroting Tor Inc propaganda.


> If you really want to torrent
> anonymously, get on I2P.

Do what fricken works for you!


And always be highly cautious of all who proclaim authority.


PS your assertions might carry more weight if you gave even a half
hearted attempt to balance a counter argument at the same time as you
proclaim from on high. At least you know a lot <smirk>




From bastianifortress at yandex.com  Wed Aug  3 09:19:23 2016
From: bastianifortress at yandex.com (Bastiani Fortress)
Date: Wed, 03 Aug 2016 18:19:23 +0200
Subject: [OT] Bios Level USB Stick Protection
Message-ID: <98591470241163@web8m.yandex.ru>

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From juan.g71 at gmail.com  Wed Aug  3 14:24:02 2016
From: juan.g71 at gmail.com (juan)
Date: Wed, 3 Aug 2016 18:24:02 -0300
Subject: Pay for Play, Influence Peddling, Tor and Hillary/Russia
In-Reply-To: <8c8f89cc-9e12-494b-5abb-550c649fb03c@riseup.net>
References: <579a62f6.ef24ed0a.805c6.9090@mx.google.com>
 <CAG2tMp4H8KSZVS75DqSaYw0omZ32_396J5AevqLqMbNpduP2ig@mail.gmail.com>
 <579a74a9.57a5370a.44210.a0e0@mx.google.com>
 <CAG2tMp6VMy4zWpmutTswZL5_iMkCa2jBsTpS=uFK4hWx-AnpTw@mail.gmail.com>
 <579bf47b.8d2a370a.c27ce.d1da@mx.google.com>
 <0a5bbe20-a784-7be5-7367-3318558289dd@riseup.net>
 <CAG2tMp6jgVKyWtT2fdTBfbt436O1Ms4adB=K5NnQ1uDup1hU6A@mail.gmail.com>
 <579e87bd.c124c80a.0b33.2d53@mx.google.com>
 <307060768.9885305.1470165329492.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com>
 <9d016c3093b978813549d537f89a9780@openmailbox.org>
 <20160803024648.GC2616@x220-a02>
 <298402368.10776248.1470196812980.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com>
 <57a16f17.7724ed0a.ae7a8.1f00@mx.google.com>
 <8c8f89cc-9e12-494b-5abb-550c649fb03c@riseup.net>
Message-ID: <57a25ff7.822dc80a.ce35.dcf5@mx.google.com>

On Wed, 3 Aug 2016 07:52:40 -0700
Rayzer <rayzer at riseup.net> wrote:

> On 08/02/2016 09:16 PM, juan wrote:
> 
> 
> 
> > 	Tor works exactly as designed. It is a 'honeypot'. 
> 
> Prove intent if you're going to make that claim.

	I don't need to prove the intent of the US militaty. Even
	reading a couple of newspapers would 'prove' it.

	Onyl a worthless scumbag like you would doubt the intent of the
	US military *and their contractors*. 

> 
> (Crickets chirping...)

	Are you hearing stuff inside your head? Well, considering that
	you can't even read your name, that's not surprising. 



> 
> It's a FLAG YOU WAVE that lets them 'kettle' you into a honeypot if
> your security is lax.
> 
> Which is why I say we need millions of "flag wavers" to assist in the
> obscuring process.
> 
> No matter the technology. No matter the code. If you are the only
> person using it and the government, for whatever reason doesn't want
> you to, you're a dead duck eventually.
> 
> Rr
> 
> 
> > On Wed, 3 Aug 2016 04:00:12 +0000 (UTC)
> > jim bell <jdb10987 at yahoo.com> wrote:
> >
> >> Perhaps the
> >> solution will be that the Tor project team will study how to insert
> >> "anti-bad-people"chaff into the Tor streams, increase the number of
> >> hops 
> > 	The number of hops is irrelevant because the tor network
> > fails 'at the edges'. It doesn't matter how many times you bounce
> > 	stuff inside the network since the traffic is 'correlated'
> > when it enters/leaves the network.
> >
> >
> >> (more to confuse the "bad people"; they confuse the hell out of
> >> me!), etc.  Eventually, they will have to sadly announce that they
> >> haven't yet fully succeeded  in preventing"bad people" from using
> >> Tor, but they HAVE greatly improved security in various ways. 
> >
> > 	What makes you think that military contractors for the US
> > 	military(i.e. tor) have any interest in improving the
> > security of the enemies of the US gov't/military? 
> >
> > 	Tor works exactly as designed. It is a 'honeypot'. 
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > Jim Bell
> >>   
> >
> >
> 
> 





From rayzer at riseup.net  Wed Aug  3 18:29:32 2016
From: rayzer at riseup.net (Rayzer)
Date: Wed, 3 Aug 2016 18:29:32 -0700
Subject: Pay for Play, Influence Peddling, Tor and Hillary/Russia
In-Reply-To: <57a286ca.6239ed0a.d0e4b.f661@mx.google.com>
References: <579a62f6.ef24ed0a.805c6.9090@mx.google.com>
 <CAG2tMp4H8KSZVS75DqSaYw0omZ32_396J5AevqLqMbNpduP2ig@mail.gmail.com>
 <579a74a9.57a5370a.44210.a0e0@mx.google.com>
 <CAG2tMp6VMy4zWpmutTswZL5_iMkCa2jBsTpS=uFK4hWx-AnpTw@mail.gmail.com>
 <579bf47b.8d2a370a.c27ce.d1da@mx.google.com>
 <0a5bbe20-a784-7be5-7367-3318558289dd@riseup.net>
 <CAG2tMp6jgVKyWtT2fdTBfbt436O1Ms4adB=K5NnQ1uDup1hU6A@mail.gmail.com>
 <579e87bd.c124c80a.0b33.2d53@mx.google.com>
 <307060768.9885305.1470165329492.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com>
 <9d016c3093b978813549d537f89a9780@openmailbox.org>
 <20160803024648.GC2616@x220-a02>
 <298402368.10776248.1470196812980.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com>
 <a2f87edb-5b32-55f3-ad93-dd761128017d@riseup.net>
 <57a286ca.6239ed0a.d0e4b.f661@mx.google.com>
Message-ID: <e710f3d9-ab14-f3fd-b48e-d51de3c419e3@riseup.net>



On 08/03/2016 05:09 PM, juan quoted me saying:

    If I were managing the project I'd be limiting improvements that would
    allow such things 


Or else I wouldn't be doing the job right schmuck. I also have noted
that I'd NEVER be doing a job like that:

> (which is why I never aspired to that sort of position... my underhand
> toss is lousy),

Thanks for sharing... Troll.

Rr

> On Wed, 3 Aug 2016 07:45:11 -0700
> Rayzer <rayzer at riseup.net> wrote:
>
>> On 08/02/2016 09:00 PM, jim bell wrote:
>>
>>
>>> “…the committee requires that spend plans submitted by the
>>> Department of State and BBG pursuant to section 7078(c) of the act
>>> include a description of safeguards to ensure that circumvention
>>> technologies are not used for illicit purposes, such as
>>> coordinating terrorist activities or online sexual exploitation of
>>> children,” 
>> If I were managing the project I'd be limiting improvements that would
>> allow such things 
>
> 	Spoken like a true americunt right-winger rayzer. Hardly
> 	surprising, no? 
>
> 	So you are not only admiting tha you are a right winger, you
> 	are a highly stupid right winger who's openly admiting that
> 	'anonimity' software 'should' be sabotaged.
>
>
>
>
>

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From jdb10987 at yahoo.com  Wed Aug  3 11:34:08 2016
From: jdb10987 at yahoo.com (jim bell)
Date: Wed, 3 Aug 2016 18:34:08 +0000 (UTC)
Subject: Interesting AP-related fiction book
References: <1033456261.10893244.1470249248866.JavaMail.yahoo.ref@mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <1033456261.10893244.1470249248866.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com>

http://suvudu.com/2016/07/michael-byrnes-sci-fi-thriller-bounty-and-how-to-crowdsource-an-assassination.html

In Michael Byrnes’ new dystopian science-fiction thrillerBounty, a string of high profile murders are connected to bounty4justice.com: a website that offers bounties for the assassinations of corrupt politicians, crooked bankers, and other targets seemingly above the law.While bounty4justice.com is fiction, it bears a very strong resemblance to a real-life kill-for-pay website first reported on in 2013. Only accessible through the Dark Web, the Assassination Market offered crowdsourced murder to the masses. The site, the creation of pseudonymous entrepreneur who went by the name Kuwabatake Sanjuro (taken from the Akira Kurosawa film Yojimbo), enabled anonymous users to submit a target for assassination along with a bounty in bitcoin for anyone who could get the job done. Users who might not have a target of their own in mind could contribute to bounties already established.Like bounty4justice.com, the Assassination Market specialized in high-ranking political figures and powerful businessmen: people like President Barack Obama and former Chairman of the Federal Reserve Ben Bernanke. In an interview with Forbes’ Andy Greenberg, Sanjuro, a self-described anarchist, said that his purpose in establishing the Assassination Market was to make risky for people to seek public officeSanjuro’s Assassination Market was not the first or only one of its kind. The inspiration for Sanjuro’s site, and many others, can be found in the essays of crypto-anarchist Jim Bell. Bell first outlined a model for crowdfunded political murder in a series of essays published in the mid-nineties. In Bell’s model, a group of activists would select a public figure and place “bets” on possible days he or she might die. With all of the crowdsourced funding up for grabs, all a potential assassin would need to do is murder the public figure and collect the funds. In theory, the other bettors would bear no criminal liability for the murder, as their wager was placed on a possible date of death and not how the person would die. In other words, a dead pool: a tasteless but legal game.[end of portion quoted]
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From rayzer at riseup.net  Wed Aug  3 18:43:50 2016
From: rayzer at riseup.net (Rayzer)
Date: Wed, 3 Aug 2016 18:43:50 -0700
Subject: Who needs social justice?
In-Reply-To: <20160804010113.GE2570@x220-a02>
References: <20160804010113.GE2570@x220-a02>
Message-ID: <15b37162-1224-bfe1-5577-4ac6c0c6be10@riseup.net>



On 08/03/2016 06:01 PM, Zenaan Harkness' link led to this group of words:
>
> In reality, of course, it is hard to stop cutting throats, and throats
> will be cut left and right, but people have already gotten to the
> point were they perceive thugs as a lesser evil in comparison with
> local "democrats".
>


I thought he was talking about 'Merica for just a moment...


But I admit I've been feeling a little confused recently... This morning
I thought this lede referred to Turkey:

>
> Fears grow as military pulled into presidential politics
>
http://thehill.com/policy/defense/290192-fears-grow-as-military-pulled-into-presidential-politics


But this one clarified:

>
>  Ex-CIA head fears 'crisis in civil-military relationships' under Trump
>

http://thehill.com/policy/defense/290225-ex-cia-director-fears-crisis-in-civil-military-relationships-under-trump


It appears the US military like the 'government' just the way it is.

Rr


> Perhaps we 'comfortable Westerners' have not thought this far..
>
> What's Worse Than Caliphate?
> http://www.fort-russ.com/2016/08/whats-worse-than-caliphate.html
>
>
> (Usefully highlighting a fundamental.)
>

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From zen at freedbms.net  Wed Aug  3 02:29:46 2016
From: zen at freedbms.net (Zenaan Harkness)
Date: Wed, 3 Aug 2016 19:29:46 +1000
Subject: FM Corporations/ businesses/ entitities
In-Reply-To: <04bfae7a-2de4-63e7-3adb-9bd54001d274@pilobilus.net>
References: <20160730013607.GB17721@x220-a02>
 <04bfae7a-2de4-63e7-3adb-9bd54001d274@pilobilus.net>
Message-ID: <20160803092946.GE2616@x220-a02>

On Wed, Aug 03, 2016 at 12:34:07AM -0400, Steve Kinney wrote:
> On 07/29/2016 09:36 PM, Zenaan Harkness wrote:
> > On Fri, Jul 29, 2016 at 09:45:40PM -0300, juan wrote:
> >> On Fri, 29 Jul 2016 13:43:12 +0300 Georgi Guninski
> >> <guninski at guninski.com> wrote:

> > THE QUESTION: The question I think always shall be, is how to
> > transition to an anarchic society, in consideration of existing
> > interests. I.e. how to peacefully transition existing entities/
> > structure/ interests into an anarchistic/ truly free market
> > reality.
> 
> How can one "peacefully" tear the dominant syndicates ruling an entire
> civilization to pieces?

By creating better alternatives which appeal to individuals, and grow
over time into alternative large and dominant syndicates.

The great challenge in doing this peacefully is not the existing
syndicates per se, but the anti-competitive, protectionist rackets
called "statute laws", which are lobbied for and abused by, these
existing mega syndicates.

In the democratic fascist model we see dominant today around the world,
the mega syndicates lobby 'governments' for special privileges - e.g.:
 - the right to tax humans driving on public roads (please, if anyone
   wants to debate this, start a separate thread)
 - the right to compel corporations and owner-operator individual
   'business persons' to sink inhuman amounts of fiat dollars into
   licensed superannuation funds
 - the right to use the courts to punish anyone trying to compete with
   your overpriced, poorly serviced telecomms network (wired or
   wireless)
 - etc etc

And so we see endless protectionist rackets, in every field of human
endeavour, all around the world, under the pretense of being
"democratic".

Oh, and by the way, when I use the term "right" above, I use it in the
sense of "predatorial right" (in case it weren't obvious).


> Those who own and administer those syndicates
> have devoted their lives to the acquisition and retention of power, at
> the expense of others and in competition against a broad spectrum of
> rivals and adversaries.  The modern Democratic State exists for the
> sole purpose of protecting and advancing the interests of dominant
> economic syndicates and their owners by any means necessary, with
> deadly force topping the go-to list.

indeed


> A whole art and science of nonviolent strategic conflict addresses
> methods of applying coercive social and economic measures to modify
> the behavior of dominant syndicates including their State
> sponsor/clients.  But an existential threat to these syndicates will
> ultimately result in their application of deadly force, and a response
> in kind.

at some levels, or in some cases, yes

BUT, not in all cases!

That is a part of the brainwashing - oh "they" are all so powerful,
there's nothing "we" can do without being shot.

BOLLOCKS.

(I know that's not exactly what you said - point is, we have to bust our
programming if we are to have any hope of making collective progress in
useful directions.)


> Anarchy is not a proposed form of government or social order;

I disagree..

> it is an
> informed critique of governments and social orders.

..political anarchy is much more than a critique - it suggests
principles for principled ways for us to interact with one another,
regardless of domain of activity.


> Or it is a
> delusional belief system indoctrinated by propaganda.  Or it is
> violent opposition to social order of any kind.  Depends who you ask.

Sure. But not one of the definitions you've suggested is particularly
useful - add to that list "direct democracy" - perhaps not the best
definition, but one I saw once and got an "ahah" moment.

Perhaps "opt-in direct democracy" would be a better way to define
"political anarchy" so that lay-persons can grok the concept, rather
than get caught up in the common meaning of 'anarchy == chaos'.


> If you want an anarchistic society, you will need to keep units of
> sovereign governance small enough that everyone can observe and play
> an active role in their governance.

And those units, however they each choose to operate, may syndicate as
a syndicate of units.

And those syndications of units may syndicate ...

...

And, it certainly does not have to be a pyramid - whichever unit, at
whichever level (individual human, or a greater syndication of some
sort), can choose to be part of/ syndicate with, any other unit of their
choice, for whatever broad or limited purposes they choose...

...


Why limit the concept?


> You need to govern that State in
> a manner that never delegates decision making power; decision making
> by consensus assures that very few non-emergency decisions will be
> made at all; thus, State interference in private affairs will be very
> limited.

I'm not quite understanding what you're saying here. It sounds like you
are speaking from a "we need a traditional 'democratic state'" concept,
just without realising it...

I could agree that our tendency to not only speak, but to think in our
'traditional western schooled concepts' is a hard habit to break :)


> In short, you need to model your State as Bands, Tribes and Nations
> governed by open Councils acting on consensus only.

Watch my lips carefully, as I'm only going to do this once:


   I

   don't

   need

   to model or otherwise do

   shit

   !


Got it?

It's a simple concept. In fact, it is foundational to political anarchy
theory, from my very limited understanding.


> And you need to
> site it on a world where no other kind of State exists or can arise,
> because hierarchal governance in a caste system includes efficiencies
> that will enable other States to take yours over shortly after they
> see advantages in doing so.  At best your Anarchistic State may
> survive by imitating the organizational methods of antagonistic States
> - - but then, you will no longer have an Anarchistic State.

Ok, statement of a potential problem clarifies your point. It is good to
clarify potential problems.

But, step 1 is to:
 - clear our heads of our existing schooling/ concepts/ think
 - refrain (!!) from putting words in the mouths of another
 - regrain from telling others what they 'need' to do


Yes, we Westerners are so very very schooled, from childhood by our
parents, and onwards, and so breaking these old communication patterns
won't be easy.

But we have to start....


There are too many assumptions in your above stated problem, and so at
the moment I suggest tidying up our languaging (I'm no exception either)
so that when we state a perceived problem, we at least do so using terms
concepts and assumptions we can agree on.


> > I am implying evolution. Revolution - we see how well that went
> > after the fall of the Tzar, to the various CIA instigated
> > revolutionary coups from Lybia to Syria, Ukraine to Yugoslavia,
> > none of which resulted in nor were intended to result in an
> > actualisation of an anarchistic society.
> > 
> > The problem with revolution, is that it is ideological extremists
> > who give enough of a shit to pick up a gun and start shooting (for
> > example) police, citizens and government officials, and the outcome
> > is that the ideological extremists end up holding the seats of
> > power and institute something -other- than anarchism. Such
> > extremists as our world's history have seen, tend to sociopathy,
> > rather than the benevolent, side of dictatorship.
> 
> The problem with "revolution" is semantic:  We are taught that a
> revolution is an armed conflict that replaces one gang of rulers with
> another gang of rulers, who may or may not bring plans for a new
> social and economic structure with them.

It is much more than semantic - history shows us many examples of
"bloody revolution", with vast millions of humans ending up dead in the
process of "transition".


> My favorite definition of "revolution" equates it to "the world turned
> upside down."
> 
> We are taught that revolutions initiate radical changes in social and
> economic systems, but I maintain that revolutions are the end result
> of radical changes in social and economic behavior.  We are taught
> that Great Leaders with Great Ideas change the world, but I maintain
> that changes in technology, population and environmental conditions
> change the world:  Those Great Leaders with their Great Ideas show up
> /after/ irreversible changes in social and economic life have already
> taken place.  They represent new dominant syndicates, seeking to
> displace institutions of governance created by and for the exclusive
> benefit of earlier dominant syndicates.  Their role is to modify the
> institutions of State power to codify, control and exploit the new
> order, for the sole benefit of the new dominant syndicates.
> 
> According to this model, the "shooting war" phase of a real revolution
> serves the sole purpose of removing dead-end resistance to rule by new
> dominant syndicates that have already eclipsed the power of previously
> dominant syndicates.

A new syndicate does not start out "dominant". I guess you mean "new,
soon to be dominant syndicate".

And that's why the banks (the oligarchs) have funded all sides of every
war in history - very profitable business, war.

So before going to war, ask yourself if you are selling your soul to the
existing syndicates...


> > We must always remember it is never the arm chair pundit ("oh I
> > wish our democracy elected representatives actually represented
> > us") crowd who will change the world.
> > 
> > So historically, revolutions seem to be more a devolution than an 
> > evolution of the status quo. If you have counter examples, please 
> > highlight them now.
> 
> The French and American Revolutions removed the institutions of
> Monarchy to make way for a New World Order where insurgent Mercantile
> and Industrialist factions share power with the older "landed"
> Aristocracy.  That New World Order developed under Monarchy; its
> revolutions only restructured political power to reflect a new
> arrangement of economic powers already in place, and establish the new
> dominant syndicates as its "legitimate" rulers.


I am consistently reacting to what I am hearing from you as a fatalism,
that "new syndicates" are already dominant before they even topple the
existing syndicate, does not make sense.

And I don't think in history it has generally been black and white (new
vs old syndicate) either - the banks (old syndicates) funding both sides
is the kind of 'armed revolution' we usually see in history...

My reaction is because you seem to deny (by assumption in the words you
choose) these possibilities, for just some examples:
 - a new syndicate can start small, probably --should-- start small!
 - a new syndicate can be organically built.
 - a new syndicate might be just two women starting a computer repair
   "shop"
 - a new small syndicate, if it genuinely represents an improvement over
   the status quo (Uber), ought naturally grow into a large syndicate



> > So it is that I hold far greater hope for a better/ anarchistic/
> > direct democracy type of future, via the pathway of evolution, and
> > not revolution.
> 
> No evolution, no revolution.  Unless by "revolution" one means
> overthrowing the State to replace it with a new State administering
> the same social and economic systems the old State evolved to control
> and exploit.  In this case, revolutionaries are those who seek power
> for its own sake through violent means; that is not likely to end well.
> 
> > And so it is also that we owe it to our future generations to
> > consider pathways to peaceful transition of existing interests,
> > into that better future.
> 
> The real future includes the collapse of industrial economies,
> accelerated looting of under-defended territories, and a major human
> population crash.  This is the picture presented by current and
> historical geophysical data.  Any plan or strategy that does not work
> in this context does not work.

Catering for likely contingencies is sensible.

I'm pretty sure the USD is gonna go down hard, and then the existing
oligarchs will go into looting overdrive - those who've positioned
themselves to be able to, of course.
Such is the sad state of human affairs we usually see.


> Absent a paradigm shift that replaces "progress" with "disaster
> mitigation, management and recovery," application of political theory
> and practice can only produce worse outcomes, not better ones.

It is all very well to start at the end goal, but not at a fatalistic
"guaranteed" bad outcome - if that's all you envision, either get
another vision, or start at the other end of the scale (how we can
usefully form small syndicates, from 2 humans upwards, to work towards a
possible better future).


I will -not- accept your fatalism and your presumed horrific outcomes.

I will -not- accept that there are no pathways to productively and
usefully evolve towards political anarchy in broad action.


> My proposed solution is radical decentralization of industry and
> agriculture; adaptation of "low technology" not dependent on
> centralized heavy industry to replace "high technology" where and as
> it has real survival value; moving as many people as far away from
> population centers as possible; and distributing field tested
> strategies and technologies for the above as widely as possible while
> the networks and economies to do so are still up and running.

Sounds great.

Sounds grand.

Sounds like there are possibilities for action by individuals and small
syndicates that could arise from this viewpoint. I think this could be
useful.


> Large scale industrial processes that systematically destroy the
> essential survival resources of future generations have to be halted
> as soon as possible.  Hydraulic fracturing to harvest petrochemicals
> permanently destroys water tables.  It is now decades too late to
> "stop" global warming, but not too late to limit the rate of onset,
> severity, and duration of large scale climactic disruptions on the way
> to a "new normal."  Genetically engineered 'food' crops destroy
> topsoil ecologies, poison water supplies and threaten the genetic
> integrity of plant species necessary to large scale human survival.
> The longer these and other grossly destructive industrial activities
> continue, the lower the resulting long term carrying capacity for
> human population in affected regions.

Sure, ACK. "We" the human race, need to, must do better.


> Preparation for and mitigation of the "end of the world as we know it"
> provides more than a lifetime of challenging, satisfying, useful work.

:)

>  Any real progress in these areas will produce a better future,
> sooner, for more people.
> 
> Ready?  Go!
> 
> :o)

ACK.

Great chatting :)




From juan.g71 at gmail.com  Wed Aug  3 15:39:34 2016
From: juan.g71 at gmail.com (juan)
Date: Wed, 3 Aug 2016 19:39:34 -0300
Subject: Pay for Play, Influence Peddling, Tor and Hillary/Russia
In-Reply-To: <1470223727.4190.9.camel@moonpatrol>
References: <579a74a9.57a5370a.44210.a0e0@mx.google.com>
 <CAG2tMp6VMy4zWpmutTswZL5_iMkCa2jBsTpS=uFK4hWx-AnpTw@mail.gmail.com>
 <579bf47b.8d2a370a.c27ce.d1da@mx.google.com>
 <0a5bbe20-a784-7be5-7367-3318558289dd@riseup.net>
 <CAG2tMp6jgVKyWtT2fdTBfbt436O1Ms4adB=K5NnQ1uDup1hU6A@mail.gmail.com>
 <579e87bd.c124c80a.0b33.2d53@mx.google.com>
 <307060768.9885305.1470165329492.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com>
 <9d016c3093b978813549d537f89a9780@openmailbox.org>
 <20160803024648.GC2616@x220-a02>
 <1470203397.4190.2.camel@moonpatrol>
 <20160803062326.GD2616@x220-a02>
 <1470223727.4190.9.camel@moonpatrol>
Message-ID: <57a271ac.e736ed0a.537e5.e825@mx.google.com>

On Wed, 03 Aug 2016 06:28:47 -0500
"Shawn K. Quinn" <skquinn at rushpost.com> wrote:

> On Wed, 2016-08-03 at 16:23 +1000, Zenaan Harkness wrote:
> > On Wed, Aug 03, 2016 at 12:49:57AM -0500, Shawn K. Quinn wrote:
> > > On Wed, 2016-08-03 at 12:46 +1000, Zenaan Harkness wrote:
> > > > Witness also the subtly extreme rebukes against anyone who
> > > > suggests using bittorrent over Tor - not by the head honcho
> > > > email addys, but such suggestions consistently draw out a
> > > > spitting snake in response.
> > > 
> > > There is a good reason for this: such requests have the potential
> > > to completely overwhelm the Tor network.
> > 
> > So sayeth the sooth sayer, blandly parroting Tor Inc propaganda.
> 
> Listen, twit, 


	Uh oh. Motherfucking shitbag quinn is speaking.

> I work for neither the Tor Project nor the US Government

	The more you deny it, the more you look like a liar. 


> There are good technical and ethical reasons to not use
> Tor for BitTorrent data.


	So, we have an american government nazi like quinn vomiting
	nonsense about 'ethics'.

	Hey quinn, why don't you explain what's morally wrong about
	torrents? I understand that you are an american nazi who
	advocates so called 'intelectual property' eh? You want to
	execute people who use their property as they see fit, AND you
	think you have the moral high ground.

	The fuck is a pro IP statist like you doing in a crypto
	anarchist mailing list? Apart from trolling, that is. 








From juan.g71 at gmail.com  Wed Aug  3 15:41:35 2016
From: juan.g71 at gmail.com (juan)
Date: Wed, 3 Aug 2016 19:41:35 -0300
Subject: Pay for Play, Influence Peddling, Tor and Hillary/Russia
In-Reply-To: <20160803112304.GB23027@albert.upstandinghackers.com>
References: <579a74a9.57a5370a.44210.a0e0@mx.google.com>
 <CAG2tMp6VMy4zWpmutTswZL5_iMkCa2jBsTpS=uFK4hWx-AnpTw@mail.gmail.com>
 <579bf47b.8d2a370a.c27ce.d1da@mx.google.com>
 <0a5bbe20-a784-7be5-7367-3318558289dd@riseup.net>
 <CAG2tMp6jgVKyWtT2fdTBfbt436O1Ms4adB=K5NnQ1uDup1hU6A@mail.gmail.com>
 <579e87bd.c124c80a.0b33.2d53@mx.google.com>
 <307060768.9885305.1470165329492.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com>
 <9d016c3093b978813549d537f89a9780@openmailbox.org>
 <20160803024648.GC2616@x220-a02>
 <1470203397.4190.2.camel@moonpatrol>
 <20160803112304.GB23027@albert.upstandinghackers.com>
Message-ID: <57a27224.03b6370a.f01af.e8e4@mx.google.com>

On Wed, 3 Aug 2016 13:23:04 +0200
"Meredith L. Patterson" <mlp at upstandinghackers.com> wrote:



	Aaaannd yet another fucking torbot.





From skquinn at rushpost.com  Wed Aug  3 17:52:24 2016
From: skquinn at rushpost.com (Shawn K. Quinn)
Date: Wed, 03 Aug 2016 19:52:24 -0500
Subject: never attribute 'stupidity' when 'malice with intent' is more
 than sufficient
In-Reply-To: <20160804003122.GA2570@x220-a02>
References: <20160804003122.GA2570@x220-a02>
Message-ID: <1470271944.3148.3.camel@moonpatrol>

On Thu, 2016-08-04 at 10:31 +1000, Zenaan Harkness wrote:
>    Subject: [ PFIR ] Report: Operating Systems Should Actively Block Pirated Downloads
> https://torrentfreak.com/rightsholders-want-microsoft-ban-pirated-software-windows-160803/
> 
>   	Apple, Google and Microsoft, are in an ideal position to deter
> 	piracy, according to a new report published by Black Market
> 	Watch and the Global Initiative against Transnational
> 	Organized Crime. The controversial report opts for voluntary
> 	or mandatory blocking of pirated content on the operating
> 	system level.

That's not something that should be in the OS, especially in light of
the fact copyright law includes this little thing called "fair use." How
the hell is the OS going to tell the difference between a warez rat and
someone downloading something under fair use?

This is also why, when and where feasible, I run an operating system not
made by one of those three companies. I use Android devices (they are
clearly the least of those three evils) and I would suspect that Google
is the most likely of the companies named to give the would-be copyright
infringement police the middle finger.

-- 
Shawn K. Quinn <skquinn at rushpost.com>





From rayzer at riseup.net  Wed Aug  3 20:00:21 2016
From: rayzer at riseup.net (Rayzer)
Date: Wed, 3 Aug 2016 20:00:21 -0700
Subject: spanking / corporal punishment ?
In-Reply-To: <20160804023913.GI2570@x220-a02>
References: <20160804023913.GI2570@x220-a02>
Message-ID: <f5751ae8-c75b-2b99-4220-e56dd5d9ffd1@riseup.net>



On 08/03/2016 07:39 PM, Zenaan Harkness wrote:
> What do folks think?
>
> (For one viewpoint:
> http://russia-insider.com/en/politics/russian-lawmakers-deserve-spanking-interfering-traditional-families/ri15967
> )
>

My  thoughts?

Genghis Khan had traditional values too.

Hitting kids accomplishes nothing except terrorize them into compliance.

That's all.

If you like societies of people raised in abject fear go right ahead,

Just do it somewhere far away from me or someone's going to get hurt.

Rr




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From juan.g71 at gmail.com  Wed Aug  3 17:09:40 2016
From: juan.g71 at gmail.com (juan)
Date: Wed, 3 Aug 2016 21:09:40 -0300
Subject: Pay for Play, Influence Peddling, Tor and Hillary/Russia
In-Reply-To: <a2f87edb-5b32-55f3-ad93-dd761128017d@riseup.net>
References: <579a62f6.ef24ed0a.805c6.9090@mx.google.com>
 <CAG2tMp4H8KSZVS75DqSaYw0omZ32_396J5AevqLqMbNpduP2ig@mail.gmail.com>
 <579a74a9.57a5370a.44210.a0e0@mx.google.com>
 <CAG2tMp6VMy4zWpmutTswZL5_iMkCa2jBsTpS=uFK4hWx-AnpTw@mail.gmail.com>
 <579bf47b.8d2a370a.c27ce.d1da@mx.google.com>
 <0a5bbe20-a784-7be5-7367-3318558289dd@riseup.net>
 <CAG2tMp6jgVKyWtT2fdTBfbt436O1Ms4adB=K5NnQ1uDup1hU6A@mail.gmail.com>
 <579e87bd.c124c80a.0b33.2d53@mx.google.com>
 <307060768.9885305.1470165329492.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com>
 <9d016c3093b978813549d537f89a9780@openmailbox.org>
 <20160803024648.GC2616@x220-a02>
 <298402368.10776248.1470196812980.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com>
 <a2f87edb-5b32-55f3-ad93-dd761128017d@riseup.net>
Message-ID: <57a286ca.6239ed0a.d0e4b.f661@mx.google.com>

On Wed, 3 Aug 2016 07:45:11 -0700
Rayzer <rayzer at riseup.net> wrote:

> On 08/02/2016 09:00 PM, jim bell wrote:
> 
> 
> > “…the committee requires that spend plans submitted by the
> > Department of State and BBG pursuant to section 7078(c) of the act
> > include a description of safeguards to ensure that circumvention
> > technologies are not used for illicit purposes, such as
> > coordinating terrorist activities or online sexual exploitation of
> > children,” 

> 
> If I were managing the project I'd be limiting improvements that would
> allow such things 


	Spoken like a true americunt right-winger rayzer. Hardly
	surprising, no? 

	So you are not only admiting tha you are a right winger, you
	are a highly stupid right winger who's openly admiting that
	'anonimity' software 'should' be sabotaged.








From afalex169 at gmail.com  Wed Aug  3 11:12:55 2016
From: afalex169 at gmail.com (=?UTF-8?B?0JDQu9C10LrRgdCw0L3QtNGA?=)
Date: Wed, 3 Aug 2016 21:12:55 +0300
Subject: [OT] Bios Level USB Stick Protection
In-Reply-To: <4b6b112e-1654-48d4-bea6-1fcf41b4881a@riseup.net>
References: <98591470241163@web8m.yandex.ru>
 <054a4eb4e98a046fb5ec413295b704c1@openmailbox.org>
 <4b6b112e-1654-48d4-bea6-1fcf41b4881a@riseup.net>
Message-ID: <CAEm6Kb+wt-F_acv_WAxCeWZNGKdSrtFCKcC_DSxfN+VjquoRZA@mail.gmail.com>

Yeah, Rayzer.
Tails.
The best i can think of in this case.

Tails will defenetely protect you versus more than 90% of the common
info-sec problems (unless you've got a hardware based keylogger :)).

2016-08-03 20:58 GMT+03:00 Rayzer <rayzer at riseup.net>:

>
>
>
> Off the top, consider Tails. You can set up a persistent volume on the
> stick to get at the code later and it TRIES to wipe memory when you shut
> tails down. It makes no use of the machine's drive so there's nothing
> there, BUT any device being plugged into the computer's USB port is
> probably logged somewhere with whatever details can be obtained.
>
> Rr
>
>
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From admin at pilobilus.net  Wed Aug  3 19:32:36 2016
From: admin at pilobilus.net (Steve Kinney)
Date: Wed, 3 Aug 2016 22:32:36 -0400
Subject: FM Corporations/ businesses/ entitities
In-Reply-To: <20160803092946.GE2616@x220-a02>
References: <20160730013607.GB17721@x220-a02>
 <04bfae7a-2de4-63e7-3adb-9bd54001d274@pilobilus.net>
 <20160803092946.GE2616@x220-a02>
Message-ID: <b399a97f-a8e8-c64d-2b57-778eb7f91cb1@pilobilus.net>

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On 08/03/2016 05:29 AM, Zenaan Harkness wrote:
> On Wed, Aug 03, 2016 at 12:34:07AM -0400, Steve Kinney wrote:

>> A whole art and science of nonviolent strategic conflict
>> addresses methods of applying coercive social and economic
>> measures to modify the behavior of dominant syndicates including
>> their State sponsor/clients.  But an existential threat to these
>> syndicates will ultimately result in their application of deadly
>> force, and a response in kind.
> 
> at some levels, or in some cases, yes
> 
> BUT, not in all cases!
> 
> That is a part of the brainwashing - oh "they" are all so
> powerful, there's nothing "we" can do without being shot.
> 
> BOLLOCKS.
> 
> (I know that's not exactly what you said - point is, we have to
> bust our programming if we are to have any hope of making
> collective progress in useful directions.)

In what I call a "real" revolution, way more than 99% of the real work
is nonviolent by nature.  Organic changes in the actual process of
social and economic life precede and drive the pressure to change
political and economic institutions rendered obsolete by changes in
the way people actually live.  Efforts expressly targeting obsolete
governing institutions for radical change are also inherently
nonviolent at their inception; only violent counter-attack by
established institutions threatened by organic change motivates public
support for armed resistance.  In turn, homegrown armed insurgencies
depend on the committed support of large networks of non-combatants
for their survival and success.

But there is a limit to the power of strictly nonviolent force;
generally speaking, policy adjustments in commercial and State
institutions can be accomplished by non-violent means, while
successful efforts to affect the abolition or radical restructuring of
commercial and State institutions usually includes armed conflict
during the endgame.  Conversion of a Liberal Fascist State and its
dominant industries to some kind of "level playing field" would be a
very radical change affecting the entire power structure that defines
commercial and State roles and activities; this is MOST unlikely to be
accomplished without prying some people's "cold, dead fingers" off the
levers of power.

>> Anarchy is not a proposed form of government or social order;
> 
> I disagree..
> 
>> it is an informed critique of governments and social orders.
> 
> ..political anarchy is much more than a critique - it suggests 
> principles for principled ways for us to interact with one
> another, regardless of domain of activity.

Semantics:  Applying "principles for principled ways for us to
interact" is exactly what I meant by "an informed critique of
governments and social orders."  :o)

> Perhaps "opt-in direct democracy" would be a better way to define 
> "political anarchy" so that lay-persons can grok the concept,
> rather than get caught up in the common meaning of 'anarchy ==
> chaos'.

Direct Democracy a.k.a. Mob Rule is one of my favorite political
concepts; I spread its gospel, and promote it by actually doing it
every chance I get.  But resistance to onerous economic and political
governance is not, in itself, a form of governance; it is a feedback
process which, when successful, governs the governors by
counterbalancing the economic and political power of dominant
syndicates.  My version of Anarchy is the study and practice of Direct
Democracy.

>> If you want an anarchistic society, you will need to keep units
>> of sovereign governance small enough that everyone can observe
>> and play an active role in their governance.
> 
> And those units, however they each choose to operate, may syndicate
> as a syndicate of units.
> 
[...]

>> You need to govern that State in a manner that never delegates
>> decision making power; decision making by consensus assures that
>> very few non-emergency decisions will be made at all; thus, State
>> interference in private affairs will be very limited.
> 
> I'm not quite understanding what you're saying here. It sounds like
> you are speaking from a "we need a traditional 'democratic state'"
> concept, just without realising it...
> 
> I could agree that our tendency to not only speak, but to think in
> our 'traditional western schooled concepts' is a hard habit to
> break :)

I'll say, and how!  What I was describing is governance as practiced
by many so-called "primitive" people.

>> In short, you need to model your State as Bands, Tribes and
>> Nations governed by open Councils acting on consensus only.
> 
> Watch my lips carefully, as I'm only going to do this once:
> 
> 
> I don't need to model or otherwise do shit !
> 
> Got it?

Perhaps I should have said, "If you want to go from high level
abstractions to methods that can be implemented in the real world, you
might benefit from considering historical examples."

> It's a simple concept. In fact, it is foundational to political
> anarchy theory, from my very limited understanding.
> 
>> And you need to site it on a world where no other kind of State
>> exists or can arise, because hierarchal governance in a caste
>> system includes efficiencies that will enable other States to
>> take yours over shortly after they see advantages in doing so.
>> At best your Anarchistic State may survive by imitating the
>> organizational methods of antagonistic States - - but then, you
>> will no longer have an Anarchistic State.
> 
> Ok, statement of a potential problem clarifies your point. It is
> good to clarify potential problems.

Consider the example of Iceland, a model democracy where 1/3 million
people have recently demonstrated that self governance is possible
/even/ in a hierarchal system, if it is small enough to permit the
electorate to observe its State and Corporate institutions in action.

Iceland is fortunate in that, at present, the United States sees no
major benefit in interfering with Iceland's internal affairs:  Because
Iceland is a de facto U.S. protectorate, functionally if not
politically part of NATO.  Geographical isolation is Iceland's saving
grace, but alas, it's not one that most of the human race can duplicate.

> But, step 1 is to: - clear our heads of our existing schooling/
> concepts/ think - refrain (!!) from putting words in the mouths of
> another - regrain from telling others what they 'need' to do
> 
> Yes, we Westerners are so very very schooled, from childhood by
> our parents, and onwards, and so breaking these old communication
> patterns won't be easy.
> 
> But we have to start....

One thing I appreciate about Anarchists is that they can fight like
cats and dogs over political bullshit, without losing an inch of
respect and solidarity.  Liberals, for instance, often don't make that
cut - which I think is very unfortunate, since "their hearts are in
the right place."

> There are too many assumptions in your above stated problem, and so
> at the moment I suggest tidying up our languaging (I'm no exception
> either) so that when we state a perceived problem, we at least do
> so using terms concepts and assumptions we can agree on.

To do that we "have to" explicitly define our terms, distinguish
historical data from abstract constructs, and clearly state material
objectives to assure that our language and data are relevant to the
work at hand.

>> The problem with "revolution" is semantic:  We are taught that a 
>> revolution is an armed conflict that replaces one gang of rulers
>> with another gang of rulers, who may or may not bring plans for a
>> new social and economic structure with them.
> 
> It is much more than semantic - history shows us many examples of 
> "bloody revolution", with vast millions of humans ending up dead in
> the process of "transition".

I am careful to distinguish between a "revolution" that installs a
regime that is responsive to the social and economic demands of the
people as a whole, vs. a "revolution" that installs a regime that
forcibly dictates a social and economic order to the people.  Both are
called "revolutions" but most of the resemblance ends there.
Blatantly repressive Fascist dictatorships call their rise to power
"revolutions" and their autocratic rule "democracy."

>> My favorite definition of "revolution" equates it to "the world
>> turned upside down."

[...]

>> According to this model, the "shooting war" phase of a real
>> revolution serves the sole purpose of removing dead-end
>> resistance to rule by new dominant syndicates that have already
>> eclipsed the power of previously dominant syndicates.
> 
> A new syndicate does not start out "dominant". I guess you mean
> "new, soon to be dominant syndicate".

A syndicate that has become a dominant force through commercial
competition, by fair means and foul, is already waging economic war
against whatever syndicates its rise to power may inconvenience, and
vice versa.  When an emergent syndicate's growing economic power
threatens to displace syndicates who control political institutions,
overt political conflicts follow.  When the structural roots of the
conflict are sufficiently broad, deep and irreconcilable, a
"revolution" that changes the form of government to accommodate new
industrial, economic and (therefore) political and social realities
may follow.

Although such revolutions often include "shooting wars" the presence
of politically motivated gunfire is not in itself a revolution, nor a
necessary indicator of one.

> And that's why the banks (the oligarchs) have funded all sides of
> every war in history - very profitable business, war.
> 
> So before going to war, ask yourself if you are selling your soul
> to the existing syndicates...

War takes many forms.  Publicly funded mass murder for private profit
is only one of them.  Shutting down an industry through boycotts,
strikes and blockades is an act of economic warfare.  Destroying the
perceived legitimacy of State institutions through propaganda is an
example of political warfare.

>> The French and American Revolutions removed the institutions of 
>> Monarchy to make way for a New World Order where insurgent
>> Mercantile and Industrialist factions share power with the older
>> "landed" Aristocracy.  That New World Order developed under
>> Monarchy; its revolutions only restructured political power to
>> reflect a new arrangement of economic powers already in place,
>> and establish the new dominant syndicates as its "legitimate"
>> rulers.
> 
> I am consistently reacting to what I am hearing from you as a
> fatalism, that "new syndicates" are already dominant before they
> even topple the existing syndicate, does not make sense.

My version of anarchist theory is a study of the dynamics of power in
human social behavior.  The State acts as a referee and enforcer in
conflicts between individuals and between syndicates, in support of
the stability of the dominant syndicates in the territory governed by
the State.  (Example:  The U.S. Federal government defines the
National Interest as the growth of the GNP and profitability of U.S.
based corporate industries.  In many policy contexts and documents,
the National Interest has replaced National Defense as the stated
beneficiary of military actions.)

As changes in technology, population and environmental variables drive
the rise and fall of dominant syndicates, stagnant or declining
syndicates may use their established relationships with the State to
cheat and take advantage, in an effort to retain their dominant
positions.  (A routine example:  Eternal Copyright and DMCA etc. for
media syndicates, conteracting the collapse to near zero of the cost
of reproducing and distributing "creative works.")  Rising syndicates
must acquire enough economic and social power to successfully
challenge both the market dominance of declining syndicates /and/ the
power of the State as it is exercised on behalf of the declining
syndicates.

When changes in real large scale power relationships happen, and the
State fails to adapt itself to these changes due to institutional
commitments to declining syndicates, revolution follows.

This model is exactly contrary to our cradle to grave indoctrination
in the Great Men and Great Ideas model of historical progress, where
revolutions /cause/ radical changes in the world of human affairs.  In
that context, the model I describe makes no sense at all.  But in the
context of the history of technology, it makes almost TOO much sense:

http://topdocumentaryfilms.com/james-burke-connections/

I view anarchist theory and practice as a discipline enabling the
peasant classes of society to form ad hoc syndicates that develop and
exercise social and economic power of their own.  Our rulers seem to
agree with me on this; anarchy has been suppressed by all means
available to ruling class interests since its first appearance in the
Enlightenment era.

Representative Democracy, the "authorized version" of Enlightenment
political organization, attempts to deliver power to the governed via
the electoral process.  I think we can agree that, at best, this
method does not scale well.  But as the old IWW slogan says, "Direct
action gets the goods."

> And I don't think in history it has generally been black and white
> (new vs old syndicate) either - the banks (old syndicates) funding
> both sides is the kind of 'armed revolution' we usually see in
> history...
> 
> My reaction is because you seem to deny (by assumption in the words
> you choose) these possibilities, for just some examples: - a new
> syndicate can start small, probably --should-- start small! - a new
> syndicate can be organically built. - a new syndicate might be just
> two women starting a computer repair "shop" - a new small
> syndicate, if it genuinely represents an improvement over the
> status quo (Uber), ought naturally grow into a large syndicate

Maybe I'm not expressing myself very well:  All these examples of
things I seem to "deny" are central to my view of how the world
actually works.  Cognitive dissonance may also be at work here:  I
look back at my personal struggles with political concepts and
constantly ask, "Why the hell did it take so long to figure this shit
out?"

[...]

>> Absent a paradigm shift that replaces "progress" with "disaster 
>> mitigation, management and recovery," application of political
>> theory and practice can only produce worse outcomes, not better
>> ones.
> 
> It is all very well to start at the end goal, but not at a
> fatalistic "guaranteed" bad outcome - if that's all you envision,
> either get another vision, or start at the other end of the scale
> (how we can usefully form small syndicates, from 2 humans upwards,
> to work towards a possible better future).
> 
> I will -not- accept your fatalism and your presumed horrific
> outcomes.
> 
> I will -not- accept that there are no pathways to productively and 
> usefully evolve towards political anarchy in broad action.

In the world of human imagination, anything is possible because
wishing makes all things so.  In the physical world, inflexible laws
are self-enforced and can not be wished away.  In the geophysical
world, global warming is just one driver of industrial civilization's
pending collapse:

https://tinyurl.com/geophysics-ftw

The slowing but still exponential growth of the human population is
another; the flattening curve of food production capacity and rising
curve of food demand are crossing now.  Topsoil, water, phosphates,
fuel and other essential inputs to agriculture are now approaching
peak extraction / exploitation rates.  This is in addition to, not
because of, the problems inherent in global warming.

Under these conditions the collapse of State and corporate power,
relative to their present massive extent, seems inevitable.
Opportunities for anarchists will be /very/ abundant, and Nature
itself will decide which courses of action are "right."

>> My proposed solution is radical decentralization of industry and 
>> agriculture; adaptation of "low technology" not dependent on 
>> centralized heavy industry to replace "high technology" where and
>> as it has real survival value; moving as many people as far away
>> from population centers as possible; and distributing field
>> tested strategies and technologies for the above as widely as
>> possible while the networks and economies to do so are still up
>> and running.
> 
> Sounds like there are possibilities for action by individuals and
> small syndicates that could arise from this viewpoint. I think this
> could be useful.

Back in the 1970s there was a bit of an "appropriate technology"
movement in the same geographic/cultural locus that eventually
produced those strange Cypherpunk critters.  That same gaggle of crazy
misfits got me started tracking geophysical issues way back then.

Today, alas:  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EcREKdqfOVQ

But also, this and more like it:

http://opensourceecology.org/wiki/Global_Village_Construction_Set

>> Large scale industrial processes that systematically destroy the 
>> essential survival resources of future generations have to be
>> halted as soon as possible.  Hydraulic fracturing to harvest
>> petrochemicals permanently destroys water tables.  It is now
>> decades too late to "stop" global warming, but not too late to
>> limit the rate of onset, severity, and duration of large scale
>> climactic disruptions on the way to a "new normal."  Genetically
>> engineered 'food' crops destroy topsoil ecologies, poison water
>> supplies and threaten the genetic integrity of plant species
>> necessary to large scale human survival. The longer these and
>> other grossly destructive industrial activities continue, the
>> lower the resulting long term carrying capacity for human
>> population in affected regions.

[...]

>> Ready?  Go!
>> 
>> :o)
> 
> ACK.
> 
> Great chatting :)

Yup.  This here's the kind of bullshit that makes the flowers grow.

:o)



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From juan.g71 at gmail.com  Wed Aug  3 21:18:02 2016
From: juan.g71 at gmail.com (juan)
Date: Thu, 4 Aug 2016 01:18:02 -0300
Subject: Pay for Play, Influence Peddling, Tor and Hillary/Russia
In-Reply-To: <e710f3d9-ab14-f3fd-b48e-d51de3c419e3@riseup.net>
References: <579a62f6.ef24ed0a.805c6.9090@mx.google.com>
 <CAG2tMp4H8KSZVS75DqSaYw0omZ32_396J5AevqLqMbNpduP2ig@mail.gmail.com>
 <579a74a9.57a5370a.44210.a0e0@mx.google.com>
 <CAG2tMp6VMy4zWpmutTswZL5_iMkCa2jBsTpS=uFK4hWx-AnpTw@mail.gmail.com>
 <579bf47b.8d2a370a.c27ce.d1da@mx.google.com>
 <0a5bbe20-a784-7be5-7367-3318558289dd@riseup.net>
 <CAG2tMp6jgVKyWtT2fdTBfbt436O1Ms4adB=K5NnQ1uDup1hU6A@mail.gmail.com>
 <579e87bd.c124c80a.0b33.2d53@mx.google.com>
 <307060768.9885305.1470165329492.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com>
 <9d016c3093b978813549d537f89a9780@openmailbox.org>
 <20160803024648.GC2616@x220-a02>
 <298402368.10776248.1470196812980.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com>
 <a2f87edb-5b32-55f3-ad93-dd761128017d@riseup.net>
 <57a286ca.6239ed0a.d0e4b.f661@mx.google.com>
 <e710f3d9-ab14-f3fd-b48e-d51de3c419e3@riseup.net>
Message-ID: <57a2c103.4c64370a.22ed0.19eb@mx.google.com>

On Wed, 3 Aug 2016 18:29:32 -0700
Rayzer <rayzer at riseup.net> wrote:

> 
> 
> On 08/03/2016 05:09 PM, juan quoted me saying:
> 
>     If I were managing the project I'd be limiting improvements that
> would allow such things 
> 
> 
> Or else I wouldn't be doing the job right schmuck. I also have noted
> that I'd NEVER be doing a job like that:
> 
> > (which is why I never aspired to that sort of position... my
> > underhand toss is lousy),
> 
> Thanks for sharing... Troll.



	Your comment is rather ambiguous. What's your point then? Are
	you finally admiting that the tor project is even more of a joke
	than it already was, now featuring built-in-censorship (TM)? Or
	what.








> 
> Rr
> 
> > On Wed, 3 Aug 2016 07:45:11 -0700
> > Rayzer <rayzer at riseup.net> wrote:
> >
> >> On 08/02/2016 09:00 PM, jim bell wrote:
> >>
> >>
> >>> “…the committee requires that spend plans submitted by the
> >>> Department of State and BBG pursuant to section 7078(c) of the act
> >>> include a description of safeguards to ensure that circumvention
> >>> technologies are not used for illicit purposes, such as
> >>> coordinating terrorist activities or online sexual exploitation of
> >>> children,” 
> >> If I were managing the project I'd be limiting improvements that
> >> would allow such things 
> >
> > 	Spoken like a true americunt right-winger rayzer. Hardly
> > 	surprising, no? 
> >
> > 	So you are not only admiting tha you are a right winger, you
> > 	are a highly stupid right winger who's openly admiting that
> > 	'anonimity' software 'should' be sabotaged.
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> 






From juan.g71 at gmail.com  Wed Aug  3 21:48:31 2016
From: juan.g71 at gmail.com (juan)
Date: Thu, 4 Aug 2016 01:48:31 -0300
Subject: FM Corporations/ businesses/ entitities
In-Reply-To: <20160803111601.GB687@sivokote.iziade.m$>
References: <20160730013607.GB17721@x220-a02>
 <04bfae7a-2de4-63e7-3adb-9bd54001d274@pilobilus.net>
 <20160803092946.GE2616@x220-a02>
 <20160803111601.GB687@sivokote.iziade.m$>
Message-ID: <57a2c827.642cc80a.5d379.1585@mx.google.com>

On Wed, 3 Aug 2016 14:16:01 +0300
Georgi Guninski <guninski at guninski.com> wrote:

> Dude, your main critical error is that you consider people "honest
> actors" or in other words "rational".
> 
> IIRC I trolled juan about this in another thread.

	I would point out that regardless of people being good or bad,
	the argument against government stands. 

	If people are good you don't need government. And if people are
	bad, then having a government that's going to be composed
	of bad people is a pretty dumb idea. 


> 
> People (AKA sheeple) are just meat to the oligarchs that will survive
> the next revolution.  

	That has happened in the past, yes, but it doesn't need to be
	always so.

	But you are entitled to your pessimistic, or, I guess you could
	say realistic views... =P


> They are easy to manipulate, eating the most
> delicious shit the election offers them.
> 





From jdb10987 at yahoo.com  Wed Aug  3 19:16:52 2016
From: jdb10987 at yahoo.com (jim bell)
Date: Thu, 4 Aug 2016 02:16:52 +0000 (UTC)
Subject: Quantum entanglement:  "Don't worry, it's a different Bell".  (from
 April 2016)
References: <2021914651.10802925.1470277012415.JavaMail.yahoo.ref@mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <2021914651.10802925.1470277012415.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com>

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sciencetech/article-3552230/Bizarre-Bell-entanglement-spotted-large-numbers-atoms-time-Correlation-takes-step-closer-superfast-quantum-computers.html

Bizarre 'Bell' entanglement is spotted in large numbers of atoms for the first time: Correlation takes us another step closer to superfast quantum computers
   
   - One example of the strange features of quantum physics is superposition
   - Another is entanglement, which says atoms properties are linked
   - Bell correlation, a specific kind of entanglement, has been seen before 
[end of portion quoted]
              Jim Bell
   
   -    

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From jdb10987 at yahoo.com  Wed Aug  3 19:22:05 2016
From: jdb10987 at yahoo.com (jim bell)
Date: Thu, 4 Aug 2016 02:22:05 +0000 (UTC)
Subject: Quantum entangled-photon Chinese satellite.
References: <255450741.10726589.1470277325532.JavaMail.yahoo.ref@mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <255450741.10726589.1470277325532.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com>

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sciencetech/article-3720772/China-launch-unbreakable-quantum-spy-satellite-say-one-day-lead-megascope-size-Earth-spot-license-plate-Jupiter-s-moons.html
[quote]
China to launch unbreakable quantum spy satellite - and it could one day lead to a megascope the size of Earth that could 'spot a license plate on Jupiter's moons'
   
   - Satellite produces entangled photon pairs which form an encryption key
   - These photons will theoretically remain linked over great distances
   - This means that any attempts to listen in will be detected on the other side
   - Scientists say this could one day make for a secure global network 

Scientists in China are set to launch the world’s first ‘quantum satellite,’ which could one day make for an ultra-secure global communications network.The 1,300 pound craft contains a crystal that produces pairs of entangled photons, which will be fired to ground stations in China and Austria to form a ‘secret key.’Entangled photons theoretically maintain their link across any distance, and according to the scientists, any attempts to breach this type of communication would be easily detectable.[end of portion quoted]
                   Jim Bell
(I have big questions about some of these statements in this article.  But given the subject matter, quantum entanglement, confusion by lay individuals is to be expected.)


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From juan.g71 at gmail.com  Wed Aug  3 23:13:58 2016
From: juan.g71 at gmail.com (juan)
Date: Thu, 4 Aug 2016 03:13:58 -0300
Subject: I swear I'm not making this up
Message-ID: <57a2dc2e.842f370a.8b7de.2348@mx.google.com>



"Russia has attacked the US in cyberspace in an attempt to influence
our national election, many experts have concluded. We need to take
this national security threat seriously and both respond and defend,
despite the partisan nature of this particular attack" 

signed - schneier, tor supreme. 








From cecilia.tanaka at gmail.com  Thu Aug  4 00:00:47 2016
From: cecilia.tanaka at gmail.com (Cecilia Tanaka)
Date: Thu, 4 Aug 2016 04:00:47 -0300
Subject: Anarchist Bibliography, please? (was Re: Deconstructing an
 Institutional Slander...)
In-Reply-To: <CAG2tMp5CmWA9rzgwDpe9XDYbOcKooAq15PrDD1UtorcnPZo--Q@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAG2tMp6-KfNr0VgiddoLxHcHw6CzyU=uLJCdCsvo9EsBE8gTeQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAG2tMp5mEQfm6VU3vk4TXOcZ6PPKgnZ0q4ho3QVHtLj7KF4wiA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAG2tMp7coBDAgA=Zv29cou+YTw6NTrCw=40unOoqep86H0oxgA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAG2tMp6VOSB0Q-Q1Z1g6cz3YS6OQbaSONEcXDxDCfOD0QztevQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAG2tMp4QqnPUZcyqjr78YLxwWpv91h_wsYEnAyt1M7oAUTBowQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAG2tMp4ad18cJ-O+ycMVVA722WR3Wi3yTgoGET6Uf+gvcD9ZSQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAG2tMp5MQaDC5c8cZ4EeMFoc0kmdAp0S+dG8fUc8+jkiP5F5uA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAG2tMp512JL9-6r+6Cgqp5n__Aa49WCPv+UmrKmAT7OXP7xwvg@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAG2tMp5dWWyBcRUmO8EEoUjPZLGnBqBCX-B8mpzKKNsGsGWhUg@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAG2tMp7R2Lo0RN11qkC_iC9-4=2gHzpbcZEOoLtRFkCJ6Cf_KA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAG2tMp70VXbY+0GJs3HApMq71TcBympeLg3QUuDDdHwmC6Cqwg@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAG2tMp4=q0aFUjcS8Gei2J9FqYfQnsWg0E5Vh_OtGjVuJ-_V0Q@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAG2tMp55nML9+v0hnLVfe+OqPsCMUNiB66FR-VjmTn3pkGSTRw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAG2tMp7M3BpOUOcv6fkOYK=cYvYCWmg3nFrL8QSGBF0JPr5pjg@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAG2tMp5A5AxiYHR4JQ-ECFCy80nsa8-xxYw5gs5vMEfHtHKRgg@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAG2tMp4HdMnuXO7K5OvAie1+f1bsU5_iDg-nEcy=PTvJfV+XFA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAG2tMp6sd1r-FwLWd2SmQTQ-JJJpCPyU9hDKKKkew8symGGtJQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAG2tMp5CmWA9rzgwDpe9XDYbOcKooAq15PrDD1UtorcnPZo--Q@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAG2tMp5VUSFrJJXVXU35VBkY4trmH8K+7yECpnQAvfX7iRF3qQ@mail.gmail.com>

On Jul 29, 2016 10:36 PM, "juan" <juan.g71 at gmail.com> wrote:
>
>         Are you talking about equality before the law? (which logically
entails anarchism btw)

Juan dear,

Instead arguing with you about vocabulary, real meaning of some words or
not, limits of some concepts, gender equality, men and women, storks and
babies, I decided asking for help and avoid a possible gaffe or being
unfair with you.  :P

I was thinking about asking you some suggestions of good anarchist
readings, because I made some searches and  - wow! -  the bibliography is
really huge.  I need some help to separate the wheat from the shaft,
please.  Or a guide "Advanced Anarchism for Dummies".  I know only the baby
steps, sorry.  :(

I asked Steve some suggestions in private, but it's better to ask publicly,
so more people can profit the clues.  Oh, you know, he loves books, uses
cute emoticons and makes oink oink.  He's a good reference for me,
hahaha!!  ;)

Tender kisses for all of you!  <3

Ceci
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From admin at pilobilus.net  Thu Aug  4 03:52:05 2016
From: admin at pilobilus.net (Steve Kinney)
Date: Thu, 4 Aug 2016 06:52:05 -0400
Subject: I swear I'm not making this up
In-Reply-To: <372891470299735@web10o.yandex.ru>
References: <57a2dc2e.842f370a.8b7de.2348@mx.google.com>
 <372891470299735@web10o.yandex.ru>
Message-ID: <923112e8-fcd2-6662-3d16-f69649708bc4@pilobilus.net>

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1

On 08/04/2016 04:35 AM, Bastiani Fortress wrote:
> Schneier, stating the obvious... These things happen all the time 
> though, don't they? What good does it do to whine about it?
> 

vs. Schneier, vomiting State sponsored wartime propaganda.
Considering who pays his speaking fees, and which are the most
lucrative clients in his employers' markets, that or him "packing it
in" and retiring from the corporate life, was more or less inevitable.

Attribution is one of the hardest things to get right in the world of
network forensics. "Trust me, I have secret information" is good
enough for losers and fools who have ultimate faith in State
institutions, even when those institutions tell them things 100%
consistent with State propaganda aims.

Meanwhile, common sense might tell a more likely tale: One about how
whoever the forensics guys say was inside the DNC systems, is either
a) the least competent of many attackers who rattled the door knobs,
or b) whoever lives in the path of a false trail laid by a competent
attacker.

An understanding of how the world works tells us that /many/ State
Security agencies take an interest in collecting political
intelligence on U.S. policy makers and their minions. Damn near all
of them, in fact; any who don't simply lack the budget or manpower.

:o/

> 9:25 AM, August 4, 2016, juan <juan.g71 at gmail.com>:
> 
> 
> 
> "Russia has attacked the US in cyberspace in an attempt to 
> influence our national election, many experts have concluded. We 
> need to take this national security threat seriously and both 
> respond and defend, despite the partisan nature of this particular 
> attack"
> 
> signed - schneier, tor supreme.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> -- You’re not from the Castle, you’re not from the village, you are
> nothing. Unfortunately, though, you are something, a stranger.
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From mirimir at riseup.net  Thu Aug  4 06:57:56 2016
From: mirimir at riseup.net (Mirimir)
Date: Thu, 4 Aug 2016 07:57:56 -0600
Subject: spanking / corporal punishment ?
In-Reply-To: <f5751ae8-c75b-2b99-4220-e56dd5d9ffd1@riseup.net>
References: <20160804023913.GI2570@x220-a02>
 <f5751ae8-c75b-2b99-4220-e56dd5d9ffd1@riseup.net>
Message-ID: <57A349E4.6020609@riseup.net>

On 08/03/2016 09:00 PM, Rayzer wrote:
> 
> 
> On 08/03/2016 07:39 PM, Zenaan Harkness wrote:
>> What do folks think?
>> 
>> (For one viewpoint: 
>> http://russia-insider.com/en/politics/russian-lawmakers-deserve-spanking-interfering-traditional-families/ri15967
>>
>> 
)
>> 
> 
> My  thoughts?
> 
> Genghis Khan had traditional values too.

;)

> Hitting kids accomplishes nothing except terrorize them into
> compliance.
> 
> That's all.

It also teaches patience ;)

> If you like societies of people raised in abject fear go right
> ahead,
> 
> Just do it somewhere far away from me or someone's going to get
> hurt.

lol

> Rr
> 
> 
> 
> 




From bastianifortress at yandex.com  Wed Aug  3 23:04:01 2016
From: bastianifortress at yandex.com (Bastiani Fortress)
Date: Thu, 04 Aug 2016 08:04:01 +0200
Subject: [OT] Bios Level USB Stick Protection
In-Reply-To: <CAEm6Kb+wt-F_acv_WAxCeWZNGKdSrtFCKcC_DSxfN+VjquoRZA@mail.gmail.com>
References: <98591470241163@web8m.yandex.ru>
 <054a4eb4e98a046fb5ec413295b704c1@openmailbox.org>
 <4b6b112e-1654-48d4-bea6-1fcf41b4881a@riseup.net>
 <CAEm6Kb+wt-F_acv_WAxCeWZNGKdSrtFCKcC_DSxfN+VjquoRZA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <140891470290641@web5j.yandex.ru>

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From rayzer at riseup.net  Thu Aug  4 09:35:27 2016
From: rayzer at riseup.net (Razer)
Date: Thu, 04 Aug 2016 09:35:27 -0700
Subject: Pay for Play, Influence Peddling, Tor and Hillary/Russia
In-Reply-To: <57a2c103.4c64370a.22ed0.19eb@mx.google.com>
References: <579a62f6.ef24ed0a.805c6.9090@mx.google.com>
 <CAG2tMp4H8KSZVS75DqSaYw0omZ32_396J5AevqLqMbNpduP2ig@mail.gmail.com>
 <579a74a9.57a5370a.44210.a0e0@mx.google.com>
 <CAG2tMp6VMy4zWpmutTswZL5_iMkCa2jBsTpS=uFK4hWx-AnpTw@mail.gmail.com>
 <579bf47b.8d2a370a.c27ce.d1da@mx.google.com>
 <0a5bbe20-a784-7be5-7367-3318558289dd@riseup.net>
 <CAG2tMp6jgVKyWtT2fdTBfbt436O1Ms4adB=K5NnQ1uDup1hU6A@mail.gmail.com>
 <579e87bd.c124c80a.0b33.2d53@mx.google.com>
 <307060768.9885305.1470165329492.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com>
 <9d016c3093b978813549d537f89a9780@openmailbox.org>
 <20160803024648.GC2616@x220-a02>
 <298402368.10776248.1470196812980.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com>
 <a2f87edb-5b32-55f3-ad93-dd761128017d@riseup.net>
 <57a286ca.6239ed0a.d0e4b.f661@mx.google.com>
 <e710f3d9-ab14-f3fd-b48e-d51de3c419e3@riseup.net>
 <57a2c103.4c64370a.22ed0.19eb@mx.google.com>
Message-ID: <455787e17298f1aded5ec36c9c972ff0@riseup.net>

On 2016-08-03 21:18, juan wrote:
> On Wed, 3 Aug 2016 18:29:32 -0700
> Rayzer <rayzer at riseup.net> wrote:
> 
>> 
>> 
>> On 08/03/2016 05:09 PM, juan quoted me saying:
>> 
>>     If I were managing the project I'd be limiting improvements that
>> would allow such things
>> 
>> 
>> Or else I wouldn't be doing the job right schmuck. I also have noted
>> that I'd NEVER be doing a job like that:
>> 
>> > (which is why I never aspired to that sort of position... my
>> > underhand toss is lousy),
>> 
>> Thanks for sharing... Troll.
> 
> 
> 
> 	Your comment is rather ambiguous. What's your point then? Are
> 	you finally admiting that the tor project is even more of a joke
> 	than it already was, now featuring built-in-censorship (TM)? Or
> 	what.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
>> 
>> Rr
>> 
>> > On Wed, 3 Aug 2016 07:45:11 -0700
>> > Rayzer <rayzer at riseup.net> wrote:
>> >
>> >> On 08/02/2016 09:00 PM, jim bell wrote:
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>> “…the committee requires that spend plans submitted by the
>> >>> Department of State and BBG pursuant to section 7078(c) of the act
>> >>> include a description of safeguards to ensure that circumvention
>> >>> technologies are not used for illicit purposes, such as
>> >>> coordinating terrorist activities or online sexual exploitation of
>> >>> children,”
>> >> If I were managing the project I'd be limiting improvements that
>> >> would allow such things
>> >
>> > 	Spoken like a true americunt right-winger rayzer. Hardly
>> > 	surprising, no?
>> >
>> > 	So you are not only admiting tha you are a right winger, you
>> > 	are a highly stupid right winger who's openly admiting that
>> > 	'anonimity' software 'should' be sabotaged.
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> 


You aren't very bright. That's what I'm saying.

If you didn't note the insinuation in what I wrote You should note it 
now. Troll.

Rr




From s at ctrlc.hu  Thu Aug  4 01:29:24 2016
From: s at ctrlc.hu (stef)
Date: Thu, 4 Aug 2016 10:29:24 +0200
Subject: never attribute 'stupidity' when 'malice with intent' is
 more than sufficient
In-Reply-To: <1470271944.3148.3.camel@moonpatrol>
References: <20160804003122.GA2570@x220-a02>
 <1470271944.3148.3.camel@moonpatrol>
Message-ID: <20160804082923.GQ30751@ctrlc.hu>

On Wed, Aug 03, 2016 at 07:52:24PM -0500, Shawn K. Quinn wrote:
> This is also why, when and where feasible, I run an operating system not
> made by one of those three companies. I use Android devices (they are
> clearly the least of those three evils)

clearly?

> and I would suspect that Google is the most likely of the companies named to
> give the would-be copyright infringement police the middle finger.

you're wrong, look at how much censoring google does daily on youtube.

-- 
otr fp: https://www.ctrlc.hu/~stef/otr.txt




From zen at freedbms.net  Wed Aug  3 17:31:22 2016
From: zen at freedbms.net (Zenaan Harkness)
Date: Thu, 4 Aug 2016 10:31:22 +1000
Subject: never attribute 'stupidity' when 'malice with intent' is more than
 sufficient
Message-ID: <20160804003122.GA2570@x220-a02>

   Subject: [ PFIR ] Report: Operating Systems Should Actively Block Pirated Downloads
https://torrentfreak.com/rightsholders-want-microsoft-ban-pirated-software-windows-160803/

  	Apple, Google and Microsoft, are in an ideal position to deter
	piracy, according to a new report published by Black Market
	Watch and the Global Initiative against Transnational
	Organized Crime. The controversial report opts for voluntary
	or mandatory blocking of pirated content on the operating
	system level.

 - - -




From bastianifortress at yandex.com  Thu Aug  4 01:35:35 2016
From: bastianifortress at yandex.com (Bastiani Fortress)
Date: Thu, 04 Aug 2016 10:35:35 +0200
Subject: I swear I'm not making this up
In-Reply-To: <57a2dc2e.842f370a.8b7de.2348@mx.google.com>
References: <57a2dc2e.842f370a.8b7de.2348@mx.google.com>
Message-ID: <372891470299735@web10o.yandex.ru>

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From zen at freedbms.net  Wed Aug  3 17:40:23 2016
From: zen at freedbms.net (Zenaan Harkness)
Date: Thu, 4 Aug 2016 10:40:23 +1000
Subject: [WAR] Al Qaeda - the USA's armed intermediary for fighting Russia
Message-ID: <20160804004023.GC2570@x220-a02>

US Foreign Policy Comes Full Circle As Qaeda Downs Russian Helicopters
http://journal-neo.org/2016/08/03/us-foreign-policy-comes-full-circle-as-qaeda-downs-russian-helicopters/

"
One wonders if this irony is lost on the American people, who have been
asked to sacrifice so much in the name of fighting “terrorism,” only to
have those who have done the asking to ally themselves with the very
terrorists in a destructive proxy war in the distant lands of the
Levant.
"




From zen at freedbms.net  Wed Aug  3 17:52:29 2016
From: zen at freedbms.net (Zenaan Harkness)
Date: Thu, 4 Aug 2016 10:52:29 +1000
Subject: Attempted coup d'etat in Turkey
In-Reply-To: <CAOsGNSTE88G7P7L-DPC-a5BJzFEnyMcj7w2RP6VnQfU+yYDfTA@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAOsGNSTE88G7P7L-DPC-a5BJzFEnyMcj7w2RP6VnQfU+yYDfTA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <20160804005229.GD2570@x220-a02>

Sounds plausible, and right in line with CIA SOP since before it was the
CIA:

$2 billion: CIA's bill for Turkish coup
http://www.fort-russ.com/2016/08/2-billion-cias-bill-for-turkish-coup.html

A few more interviews and this will be just another CIA coup/ attempt
to add to the litany.




From zen at freedbms.net  Wed Aug  3 18:01:13 2016
From: zen at freedbms.net (Zenaan Harkness)
Date: Thu, 4 Aug 2016 11:01:13 +1000
Subject: Who needs social justice?
Message-ID: <20160804010113.GE2570@x220-a02>

Perhaps we 'comfortable Westerners' have not thought this far..

What's Worse Than Caliphate?
http://www.fort-russ.com/2016/08/whats-worse-than-caliphate.html


(Usefully highlighting a fundamental.)




From zen at freedbms.net  Wed Aug  3 18:07:32 2016
From: zen at freedbms.net (Zenaan Harkness)
Date: Thu, 4 Aug 2016 11:07:32 +1000
Subject: Who needs social justice?
In-Reply-To: <20160804010113.GE2570@x220-a02>
References: <20160804010113.GE2570@x220-a02>
Message-ID: <20160804010732.GF2570@x220-a02>

An honourable Pole - perhaps Polish 'liberal democratic leaders' can
listen:

Piskorski writes from prison: American imperialism is turning Poland
into a war zone
http://www.fort-russ.com/2016/08/piskorski-writes-from-prison-american.html




From zen at freedbms.net  Wed Aug  3 18:18:56 2016
From: zen at freedbms.net (Zenaan Harkness)
Date: Thu, 4 Aug 2016 11:18:56 +1000
Subject: [WAR] - what can we do to help avoid WW3 ?
Message-ID: <20160804011856.GG2570@x220-a02>

I don't have an answer to the question, but perhaps we should keep
asking the question of ourselves individually and collectively.

In the meantime, clarity on facts may be useful, despite political
overtones suggested by the timing:

Ex OSCE vice president shifts onus over downed SU-24 from Turkey to NATO
http://www.fort-russ.com/2016/08/ex-osce-vice-president-shifts-onus-over.html




From zen at freedbms.net  Wed Aug  3 18:22:13 2016
From: zen at freedbms.net (Zenaan Harkness)
Date: Thu, 4 Aug 2016 11:22:13 +1000
Subject: =?utf-8?B?J0l04oCZ?= =?utf-8?Q?s?= Time': Whistleblower Edward
 Snowden Tweets Mysterious Warning
Message-ID: <20160804012213.GH2570@x220-a02>

Any one got the low down on this one?

'It’s Time': Whistleblower Edward Snowden Tweets Mysterious Warning
http://sputniknews.com/science/20160803/1043913532/snowden-tweet-its-time.html




From bastianifortress at yandex.com  Thu Aug  4 03:20:25 2016
From: bastianifortress at yandex.com (Bastiani Fortress)
Date: Thu, 04 Aug 2016 12:20:25 +0200
Subject: Attempted coup d'etat in Turkey
In-Reply-To: <20160804005229.GD2570@x220-a02>
References: <CAOsGNSTE88G7P7L-DPC-a5BJzFEnyMcj7w2RP6VnQfU+yYDfTA@mail.gmail.com>
 <20160804005229.GD2570@x220-a02>
Message-ID: <632791470306025@web29g.yandex.ru>

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From zen at freedbms.net  Wed Aug  3 19:39:13 2016
From: zen at freedbms.net (Zenaan Harkness)
Date: Thu, 4 Aug 2016 12:39:13 +1000
Subject: spanking / corporal punishment ?
Message-ID: <20160804023913.GI2570@x220-a02>

What do folks think?

(For one viewpoint:
http://russia-insider.com/en/politics/russian-lawmakers-deserve-spanking-interfering-traditional-families/ri15967
)




From carimachet at gmail.com  Thu Aug  4 03:33:45 2016
From: carimachet at gmail.com (Cari Machet)
Date: Thu, 4 Aug 2016 13:33:45 +0300
Subject: Anarchist Bibliography, please? (was Re: Deconstructing an
 Institutional Slander...)
In-Reply-To: <CAG2tMp5VUSFrJJXVXU35VBkY4trmH8K+7yECpnQAvfX7iRF3qQ@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAG2tMp6-KfNr0VgiddoLxHcHw6CzyU=uLJCdCsvo9EsBE8gTeQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAG2tMp5mEQfm6VU3vk4TXOcZ6PPKgnZ0q4ho3QVHtLj7KF4wiA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAG2tMp7coBDAgA=Zv29cou+YTw6NTrCw=40unOoqep86H0oxgA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAG2tMp6VOSB0Q-Q1Z1g6cz3YS6OQbaSONEcXDxDCfOD0QztevQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAG2tMp4QqnPUZcyqjr78YLxwWpv91h_wsYEnAyt1M7oAUTBowQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAG2tMp4ad18cJ-O+ycMVVA722WR3Wi3yTgoGET6Uf+gvcD9ZSQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAG2tMp5MQaDC5c8cZ4EeMFoc0kmdAp0S+dG8fUc8+jkiP5F5uA@mail.gmail.com>
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 <CAG2tMp4=q0aFUjcS8Gei2J9FqYfQnsWg0E5Vh_OtGjVuJ-_V0Q@mail.gmail.com>
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 <CAG2tMp6sd1r-FwLWd2SmQTQ-JJJpCPyU9hDKKKkew8symGGtJQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAG2tMp5CmWA9rzgwDpe9XDYbOcKooAq15PrDD1UtorcnPZo--Q@mail.gmail.com>
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Message-ID: <CAGRDzQVgYsDFKraSm-1TZ4aBpy37Y_yYaztcy81k=-Av012HKA@mail.gmail.com>

anything by bakunin but also read about his life

he opposed socialism because of its statism > authoritarianism

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mikhail_Bakunin

https://libcom.org/files/Bakunin%20on%20Anarchy%20(1971).pdf

the internet archive has a section on him

https://archive.org/index.php

he wrote some but worked on the front lines as well so had a high education



On Thu, Aug 4, 2016 at 10:00 AM, Cecilia Tanaka <cecilia.tanaka at gmail.com>
wrote:

> On Jul 29, 2016 10:36 PM, "juan" <juan.g71 at gmail.com> wrote:
> >
> >         Are you talking about equality before the law? (which logically
> entails anarchism btw)
>
> Juan dear,
>
> Instead arguing with you about vocabulary, real meaning of some words or
> not, limits of some concepts, gender equality, men and women, storks and
> babies, I decided asking for help and avoid a possible gaffe or being
> unfair with you.  :P
>
> I was thinking about asking you some suggestions of good anarchist
> readings, because I made some searches and  - wow! -  the bibliography is
> really huge.  I need some help to separate the wheat from the shaft,
> please.  Or a guide "Advanced Anarchism for Dummies".  I know only the baby
> steps, sorry.  :(
>
> I asked Steve some suggestions in private, but it's better to ask
> publicly, so more people can profit the clues.  Oh, you know, he loves
> books, uses cute emoticons and makes oink oink.  He's a good reference for
> me, hahaha!!  ;)
>
> Tender kisses for all of you!  <3
>
> Ceci
>



-- 
Cari Machet
NYC 646-436-7795
carimachet at gmail.com
AIM carismachet
Syria +963-099 277 3243
Amman +962 077 636 9407
Berlin +49 152 11779219
Reykjavik +354 894 8650
Twitter: @carimachet <https://twitter.com/carimachet>

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Ruh-roh, this is now necessary: This email is intended only for the
addressee(s) and may contain confidential information. If you are not the
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From bastianifortress at yandex.com  Thu Aug  4 04:54:45 2016
From: bastianifortress at yandex.com (Bastiani Fortress)
Date: Thu, 04 Aug 2016 13:54:45 +0200
Subject: Anarchist Bibliography,
 please? (was Re: Deconstructing an Institutional Slander...)
In-Reply-To: <CAGRDzQVgYsDFKraSm-1TZ4aBpy37Y_yYaztcy81k=-Av012HKA@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAG2tMp6-KfNr0VgiddoLxHcHw6CzyU=uLJCdCsvo9EsBE8gTeQ@mail.gmail.com>
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From guninski at guninski.com  Thu Aug  4 04:02:24 2016
From: guninski at guninski.com (Georgi Guninski)
Date: Thu, 4 Aug 2016 14:02:24 +0300
Subject: I swear I'm not making this up
In-Reply-To: <57a2dc2e.842f370a.8b7de.2348@mx.google.com>
References: <57a2dc2e.842f370a.8b7de.2348@mx.google.com>
Message-ID: <20160804110224.GA1430@sivokote.iziade.m$>

On Thu, Aug 04, 2016 at 03:13:58AM -0300, juan wrote:
> 
> 
> "Russia has attacked the US in cyberspace in an attempt to influence
> our national election, many experts have concluded. We need to take

IMHO, North Korea is equally likely. Slightly less likely is "eight
little green men (aka 8lgm)". ;)

> this national security threat seriously and both respond and defend,
> despite the partisan nature of this particular attack" 
> 
> signed - schneier, tor supreme. 




From bastianifortress at yandex.com  Thu Aug  4 05:33:59 2016
From: bastianifortress at yandex.com (Bastiani Fortress)
Date: Thu, 04 Aug 2016 14:33:59 +0200
Subject: Quantum entangled-photon Chinese satellite.
In-Reply-To: <255450741.10726589.1470277325532.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com>
References: <255450741.10726589.1470277325532.JavaMail.yahoo.ref@mail.yahoo.com>
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From mirimir at riseup.net  Thu Aug  4 14:55:57 2016
From: mirimir at riseup.net (Mirimir)
Date: Thu, 4 Aug 2016 15:55:57 -0600
Subject: Quantum entangled-photon Chinese satellite.
In-Reply-To: <968A3F27-DDED-4DA8-909C-01C472D72E67@riseup.net>
References: <255450741.10726589.1470277325532.JavaMail.yahoo.ref@mail.yahoo.com>
 <255450741.10726589.1470277325532.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com>
 <687871470314039@web15g.yandex.ru>
 <1603947053.11044988.1470329352392.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com>
 <57a3a57f.0703370a.241d8.c3ea@mx.google.com>
 <968A3F27-DDED-4DA8-909C-01C472D72E67@riseup.net>
Message-ID: <57A3B9ED.9000905@riseup.net>

On 08/04/2016 03:32 PM, Sci Fith wrote:
> Quantum entanglement is real. Sounds like you have some reading to do. ;) basically once particles are associated they can communicate / stay in sync regardless of distance. Amazing stuff. 

See <https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=10269297> :)

>> On Aug 4, 2016, at 4:33 PM, juan <juan.g71 at gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>> On Thu, 4 Aug 2016 16:49:12 +0000 (UTC)
>> jim bell <jdb10987 at yahoo.com> wrote:
>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Apparently, that is true.   The tantalizing thing is that SOMETHING
>>> APPEARS   (information, of some nature) to be transferred between one
>>> particle and another, distant one, and yet there seems to be no way
>>> to use that transfer to actually transmit useful FTL
>>
>>    Which sounds rather absurd no? Either this is ordinary EM
>>    phenomena that propagate at the so called speed of light, or
>>    it is something else which could propagate at 'faster than
>>    light' speed. 
>>
>>    If 'something' is moving at faster than light speed, then some
>>    information must be being transmitted. If no information is
>>    being transmitted, then by definition, there's no way to measure
>>    speed and the claim makes no sense.
>>
>>
>>
>>> (faster than
>>> light) information.                 Jim Bell
>>>
>>> From: Bastiani Fortress <bastianifortress at yandex.com>
>>> Quantum entanglement does not provide information passing faster than
>>> light, afaik. Either i misunderstood the news, or it's being falsely
>>> advertised.
>>>
>>> 5:43 AM, August 4, 2016, jim bell <jdb10987 at yahoo.com>:
>>>
>>> http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sciencetech/article-3720772/China-launch-unbreakable-quantum-spy-satellite-say-one-day-lead-megascope-size-Earth-spot-license-plate-Jupiter-s-moons.html
>>>
>>> [quote]
>>> China to launch unbreakable quantum spy satellite - and it could one
>>> day lead to a megascope the size of Earth that could 'spot a license
>>> plate on Jupiter's moons'Satellite produces entangled photon pairs
>>> which form an encryption keyThese photons will theoretically remain
>>> linked over great distancesThis means that any attempts to listen in
>>> will be detected on the other sideScientists say this could one day
>>> make for a secure global network 
>>>
>>> Scientists in China are set to launch the world’s first ‘quantum
>>> satellite,’ which could one day make for an ultra-secure global
>>> communications network. The 1,300 pound craft contains a crystal that
>>> produces pairs of entangled photons, which will be fired to ground
>>> stations in China and Austria to form a ‘secret key.’ Entangled
>>> photons theoretically maintain their link across any distance, and
>>> according to the scientists, any attempts to breach this type of
>>> communication would be easily detectable. [end of portion quoted]
>>>
>>>
>>>                    Jim Bell
>>>
>>>
>>> (I have big questions about some of these statements in this article.
>>>  But given the subject matter, quantum entanglement, confusion by lay
>>> individuals is to be expected.)
>>
>>
> 
> 
> 




From admin at pilobilus.net  Thu Aug  4 12:56:20 2016
From: admin at pilobilus.net (Steve Kinney)
Date: Thu, 4 Aug 2016 15:56:20 -0400
Subject: Anarchist Bibliography, please? (was Re: Deconstructing an
 Institutional Slander...)
In-Reply-To: <CAG2tMp5VUSFrJJXVXU35VBkY4trmH8K+7yECpnQAvfX7iRF3qQ@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAG2tMp6-KfNr0VgiddoLxHcHw6CzyU=uLJCdCsvo9EsBE8gTeQ@mail.gmail.com>
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 <CAG2tMp5dWWyBcRUmO8EEoUjPZLGnBqBCX-B8mpzKKNsGsGWhUg@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAG2tMp7R2Lo0RN11qkC_iC9-4=2gHzpbcZEOoLtRFkCJ6Cf_KA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAG2tMp70VXbY+0GJs3HApMq71TcBympeLg3QUuDDdHwmC6Cqwg@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAG2tMp4=q0aFUjcS8Gei2J9FqYfQnsWg0E5Vh_OtGjVuJ-_V0Q@mail.gmail.com>
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On 08/04/2016 03:00 AM, Cecilia Tanaka wrote:

> I asked Steve some suggestions in private, but it's better to ask 
> publicly, so more people can profit the clues.  Oh, you know, he
> loves books, uses cute emoticons and makes oink oink.  He's a good
> reference for me, hahaha!!  ;)

When dredging the Internet for information, I am sure you won't have
much trouble picking out the State sponsored anarchist literature and
pseudo-radical propaganda fronts:  Rebel As You Are Told is one of the
oldest and most powerful political warfare strategies in the
opposition's playbook.

Anarchists don't worry much about labeling sources and concepts as,
for instance, Left or Right.  The relevant question is, Useful or Not?
 In addition to State directed wannabe anarchists who rebel as they
are told, we also have a bumper crop of people who believe that adding
the prefix an- or anarcho- to the name of any archaic, failed or
outright delusional "political philosophy" makes it hip and relevant.

A lot of anarchist literature does not appear to be political.
Anarchists also make a point of reading and exploiting the
opposition's textbooks; there are such things as laws of physics,
natural processes, principles of strategy, etc. that hold constant no
matter who studies them.  "It's a piss poor pitiful Anarchist, who
refuses to use the State's resources against the State's interests."

Just now I am reading this:

http://www.aeinstein.org/wp-content/uploads/2013/09/FDTD.pdf

It's an in depth survey of political warfare theory and practice in
the context of politically motivated popular uprisings.  There's not a
bit of Anarchy in it, except that everything in it is of potential use
to anarchists.  While reading just substitute self rule or autonomy
for "Democracy," and anarchist or radical for "democrat," and viola:
Radical literature fit to be suppressed by any self respecting
sovereign State.  (The U.S. Federal government tolerates and even
funds this kind of literature, because it is intended for distribution
in "unfriendly regimes" overseas.)

All of these titles are relevant to practical anarchy:
http://pilobilus.net/strategic_conflict_docs_intro.html

The Tao Te Ching can rightly be called an anarchist classic.  I quote
it more often than any other source, both in correspondence and to
myself.  I like the D.C. Lau translation:

http://terebess.hu/english/tao/lau.html

Marshall Rosenberg's Nonviolent Communication is very popular with the
anarchist crowd.  Handle with care, this is highly refined weapons
grade pacifist material:

https://tinyurl.com/rosenberg-nvc  (PDF, 241 pages)

Here's a fun movie:  It's a biography of Emma Goldman, one of the most
famous Anarchists of the 20th century.  She was a Russian Jew who moved
to America as soon as she was old enough and raised hell non-stop from
then on.  At the height of her career she was the most popular political
speaker in the U.S. of A.

https://archive.org/details/EmmaGoldman-AnExceedinglyDangerousWoman

:o)


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From cecilia.tanaka at gmail.com  Thu Aug  4 12:29:08 2016
From: cecilia.tanaka at gmail.com (Cecilia Tanaka)
Date: Thu, 4 Aug 2016 16:29:08 -0300
Subject: Anarchist Bibliography, please? (was Re: Deconstructing an
 Institutional Slander...)
In-Reply-To: <1021591470311685@web30h.yandex.ru>
References: <CAG2tMp6-KfNr0VgiddoLxHcHw6CzyU=uLJCdCsvo9EsBE8gTeQ@mail.gmail.com>
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 <CAG2tMp4QqnPUZcyqjr78YLxwWpv91h_wsYEnAyt1M7oAUTBowQ@mail.gmail.com>
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 <CAG2tMp55nML9+v0hnLVfe+OqPsCMUNiB66FR-VjmTn3pkGSTRw@mail.gmail.com>
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 <CAG2tMp4HdMnuXO7K5OvAie1+f1bsU5_iDg-nEcy=PTvJfV+XFA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAG2tMp6sd1r-FwLWd2SmQTQ-JJJpCPyU9hDKKKkew8symGGtJQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAG2tMp5CmWA9rzgwDpe9XDYbOcKooAq15PrDD1UtorcnPZo--Q@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAG2tMp5VUSFrJJXVXU35VBkY4trmH8K+7yECpnQAvfX7iRF3qQ@mail.gmail.com>
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 <1021591470311685@web30h.yandex.ru>
Message-ID: <CAG2tMp56E+_MyWxq3v=Ecmaft3MyNODVUpGXTZF-ArUg5J3U4A@mail.gmail.com>

Hi Cari!  Hi Bastiani!  :D

Thank you very much for the kind suggestions!  <3

I was writing an answer to Juan, talking about 'sexism' and feminism, but
decided to search about the relations about anarchism, feminism and also
sexism.  I've found several references and different concepts, some of them
a bit confuse and contraditory.

So, it would be unfair to say Juan was wrong.  Some writers think he's
right, but some anarcha-feminists say the 'sexism' really exists and use
this exact word in their texts.  :P

After some reading, I thought it would be more logical to understand the
anarchism decently, before analyzing its relations with feminism and,
maybe, with 'sexism'.  Mental masturbation takes additional time, but is
always fun, hihi!  :)

I've found different definitions of 'sexism' on internet and, being
sincere, I thought some of them are so 'sexist' as the prejudice that they
want to avoid.  There are some good, reasonable definitions, but most of
them were very frustrating.  Meh!  Better to study a bit more and have my
own personal beliefs.  :P

Lots of thankful little kisses, muuaaah!!!  :*

(Hum, it sounds tender and affectionate in Portuguese, but ridiculously
cheesy and lovey-dovey in English, hahaha!!  <3)
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From jdb10987 at yahoo.com  Thu Aug  4 09:42:16 2016
From: jdb10987 at yahoo.com (jim bell)
Date: Thu, 4 Aug 2016 16:42:16 +0000 (UTC)
Subject: I swear I'm not making this up
In-Reply-To: <372891470299735@web10o.yandex.ru>
References: <57a2dc2e.842f370a.8b7de.2348@mx.google.com>
 <372891470299735@web10o.yandex.ru>
Message-ID: <1796685685.11147764.1470328936351.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com>



 From: Bastiani Fortress <bastianifortress at yandex.com>
Schneier, stating the obvious... These things happen all the time though, don't they? What good does it do to whine about it?
9:25 AM, August 4, 2016, juan <juan.g71 at gmail.com>:

"Russia has attacked the US in cyberspace in an attempt to influence
our national election, many experts have concluded. We need to take
this national security threat seriously and both respond and defend,
despite the partisan nature of this particular attack" 
signed - schneier, tor supreme. 


However, within the last couple of days,  I have seen speculation on the Internet that it was the NSA behind the hack of the DNC.  (Not that I don't think it might have been ALSO Russia. Apparently the NSA is just furious about how little care Hillary exhibited in the storage and content of her communications, as well as her lying about it.     To me, the identity and motives of this specific attacker are entirely unimportant:  It is clear that the Democrats are just trying to divertattention from their own.   What I do notice is that when it was Hillary's private server that perhaps was being hacked, the media and government said a collective "ho hum", but when the DNC got that treatment, suddenly the FBI is motivated to act.  Double-standard?              Jim Bell  
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From jdb10987 at yahoo.com  Thu Aug  4 09:49:12 2016
From: jdb10987 at yahoo.com (jim bell)
Date: Thu, 4 Aug 2016 16:49:12 +0000 (UTC)
Subject: Quantum entangled-photon Chinese satellite.
In-Reply-To: <687871470314039@web15g.yandex.ru>
References: <255450741.10726589.1470277325532.JavaMail.yahoo.ref@mail.yahoo.com>
 <255450741.10726589.1470277325532.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com>
 <687871470314039@web15g.yandex.ru>
Message-ID: <1603947053.11044988.1470329352392.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com>



Apparently, that is true.   The tantalizing thing is that SOMETHING APPEARS   (information, of some nature) to be transferred between one particle and another, distant one, and yet there seems to be no way to use that transfer to actually transmit useful FTL (faster than light) information.                 Jim Bell

 From: Bastiani Fortress <bastianifortress at yandex.com>
Quantum entanglement does not provide information passing faster than light, afaik. Either i misunderstood the news, or it's being falsely advertised.

5:43 AM, August 4, 2016, jim bell <jdb10987 at yahoo.com>:

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sciencetech/article-3720772/China-launch-unbreakable-quantum-spy-satellite-say-one-day-lead-megascope-size-Earth-spot-license-plate-Jupiter-s-moons.html

[quote]
China to launch unbreakable quantum spy satellite - and it could one day lead to a megascope the size of Earth that could 'spot a license plate on Jupiter's moons'Satellite produces entangled photon pairs which form an encryption keyThese photons will theoretically remain linked over great distancesThis means that any attempts to listen in will be detected on the other sideScientists say this could one day make for a secure global network 

Scientists in China are set to launch the world’s first ‘quantum satellite,’ which could one day make for an ultra-secure global communications network.
The 1,300 pound craft contains a crystal that produces pairs of entangled photons, which will be fired to ground stations in China and Austria to form a ‘secret key.’
Entangled photons theoretically maintain their link across any distance, and according to the scientists, any attempts to breach this type of communication would be easily detectable.
[end of portion quoted]


                   Jim Bell


(I have big questions about some of these statements in this article.  But given the subject matter, quantum entanglement, confusion by lay individuals is to be expected.)











-- 
You’re not from the Castle, you’re not from the village, you are nothing. Unfortunately, though, you are something, a stranger.

  
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From juan.g71 at gmail.com  Thu Aug  4 12:59:34 2016
From: juan.g71 at gmail.com (juan)
Date: Thu, 4 Aug 2016 16:59:34 -0300
Subject: spanking / corporal punishment ?
In-Reply-To: <f5751ae8-c75b-2b99-4220-e56dd5d9ffd1@riseup.net>
References: <20160804023913.GI2570@x220-a02>
 <f5751ae8-c75b-2b99-4220-e56dd5d9ffd1@riseup.net>
Message-ID: <57a39dab.a32fc80a.24713.c6aa@mx.google.com>

On Wed, 3 Aug 2016 20:00:21 -0700
Rayzer <rayzer at riseup.net> wrote:

> My  thoughts?
> 
> Genghis Khan had traditional values too.
> 
> Hitting kids accomplishes nothing except terrorize them into
> compliance.
> 
> That's all.
> 
> If you like societies of people raised in abject fear go right ahead,


	Well, at least rayzer managed to say something sensible. Must
	be some glitch in the matrix...


	


> 
> Just do it somewhere far away from me or someone's going to get hurt.
> 
> Rr
> 
> 
> 
> 





From scfith at riseup.net  Thu Aug  4 14:32:19 2016
From: scfith at riseup.net (Sci Fith)
Date: Thu, 4 Aug 2016 17:32:19 -0400
Subject: Quantum entangled-photon Chinese satellite.
In-Reply-To: <57a3a57f.0703370a.241d8.c3ea@mx.google.com>
References: <255450741.10726589.1470277325532.JavaMail.yahoo.ref@mail.yahoo.com>
 <255450741.10726589.1470277325532.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com>
 <687871470314039@web15g.yandex.ru>
 <1603947053.11044988.1470329352392.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com>
 <57a3a57f.0703370a.241d8.c3ea@mx.google.com>
Message-ID: <968A3F27-DDED-4DA8-909C-01C472D72E67@riseup.net>

Quantum entanglement is real. Sounds like you have some reading to do. ;) basically once particles are associated they can communicate / stay in sync regardless of distance. Amazing stuff. 

> On Aug 4, 2016, at 4:33 PM, juan <juan.g71 at gmail.com> wrote:
> 
> On Thu, 4 Aug 2016 16:49:12 +0000 (UTC)
> jim bell <jdb10987 at yahoo.com> wrote:
> 
>> 
>> 
>> Apparently, that is true.   The tantalizing thing is that SOMETHING
>> APPEARS   (information, of some nature) to be transferred between one
>> particle and another, distant one, and yet there seems to be no way
>> to use that transfer to actually transmit useful FTL
> 
>    Which sounds rather absurd no? Either this is ordinary EM
>    phenomena that propagate at the so called speed of light, or
>    it is something else which could propagate at 'faster than
>    light' speed. 
> 
>    If 'something' is moving at faster than light speed, then some
>    information must be being transmitted. If no information is
>    being transmitted, then by definition, there's no way to measure
>    speed and the claim makes no sense.
> 
> 
> 
>> (faster than
>> light) information.                 Jim Bell
>> 
>> From: Bastiani Fortress <bastianifortress at yandex.com>
>> Quantum entanglement does not provide information passing faster than
>> light, afaik. Either i misunderstood the news, or it's being falsely
>> advertised.
>> 
>> 5:43 AM, August 4, 2016, jim bell <jdb10987 at yahoo.com>:
>> 
>> http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sciencetech/article-3720772/China-launch-unbreakable-quantum-spy-satellite-say-one-day-lead-megascope-size-Earth-spot-license-plate-Jupiter-s-moons.html
>> 
>> [quote]
>> China to launch unbreakable quantum spy satellite - and it could one
>> day lead to a megascope the size of Earth that could 'spot a license
>> plate on Jupiter's moons'Satellite produces entangled photon pairs
>> which form an encryption keyThese photons will theoretically remain
>> linked over great distancesThis means that any attempts to listen in
>> will be detected on the other sideScientists say this could one day
>> make for a secure global network 
>> 
>> Scientists in China are set to launch the world’s first ‘quantum
>> satellite,’ which could one day make for an ultra-secure global
>> communications network. The 1,300 pound craft contains a crystal that
>> produces pairs of entangled photons, which will be fired to ground
>> stations in China and Austria to form a ‘secret key.’ Entangled
>> photons theoretically maintain their link across any distance, and
>> according to the scientists, any attempts to breach this type of
>> communication would be easily detectable. [end of portion quoted]
>> 
>> 
>>                    Jim Bell
>> 
>> 
>> (I have big questions about some of these statements in this article.
>>  But given the subject matter, quantum entanglement, confusion by lay
>> individuals is to be expected.)
> 
> 






From juan.g71 at gmail.com  Thu Aug  4 13:33:02 2016
From: juan.g71 at gmail.com (juan)
Date: Thu, 4 Aug 2016 17:33:02 -0300
Subject: Quantum entangled-photon Chinese satellite.
In-Reply-To: <1603947053.11044988.1470329352392.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com>
References: <255450741.10726589.1470277325532.JavaMail.yahoo.ref@mail.yahoo.com>
 <255450741.10726589.1470277325532.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com>
 <687871470314039@web15g.yandex.ru>
 <1603947053.11044988.1470329352392.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <57a3a57f.0703370a.241d8.c3ea@mx.google.com>

On Thu, 4 Aug 2016 16:49:12 +0000 (UTC)
jim bell <jdb10987 at yahoo.com> wrote:

> 
> 
> Apparently, that is true.   The tantalizing thing is that SOMETHING
> APPEARS   (information, of some nature) to be transferred between one
> particle and another, distant one, and yet there seems to be no way
> to use that transfer to actually transmit useful FTL 

	Which sounds rather absurd no? Either this is ordinary EM
	phenomena that propagate at the so called speed of light, or
	it is something else which could propagate at 'faster than
	light' speed. 

	If 'something' is moving at faster than light speed, then some
	information must be being transmitted. If no information is
	being transmitted, then by definition, there's no way to measure
	speed and the claim makes no sense.



> (faster than
> light) information.                 Jim Bell
> 
>  From: Bastiani Fortress <bastianifortress at yandex.com>
> Quantum entanglement does not provide information passing faster than
> light, afaik. Either i misunderstood the news, or it's being falsely
> advertised.
> 
> 5:43 AM, August 4, 2016, jim bell <jdb10987 at yahoo.com>:
> 
> http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sciencetech/article-3720772/China-launch-unbreakable-quantum-spy-satellite-say-one-day-lead-megascope-size-Earth-spot-license-plate-Jupiter-s-moons.html
> 
> [quote]
> China to launch unbreakable quantum spy satellite - and it could one
> day lead to a megascope the size of Earth that could 'spot a license
> plate on Jupiter's moons'Satellite produces entangled photon pairs
> which form an encryption keyThese photons will theoretically remain
> linked over great distancesThis means that any attempts to listen in
> will be detected on the other sideScientists say this could one day
> make for a secure global network 
> 
> Scientists in China are set to launch the world’s first ‘quantum
> satellite,’ which could one day make for an ultra-secure global
> communications network. The 1,300 pound craft contains a crystal that
> produces pairs of entangled photons, which will be fired to ground
> stations in China and Austria to form a ‘secret key.’ Entangled
> photons theoretically maintain their link across any distance, and
> according to the scientists, any attempts to breach this type of
> communication would be easily detectable. [end of portion quoted]
> 
> 
>                    Jim Bell
> 
> 
> (I have big questions about some of these statements in this article.
>  But given the subject matter, quantum entanglement, confusion by lay
> individuals is to be expected.)
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 






From juan.g71 at gmail.com  Thu Aug  4 13:33:26 2016
From: juan.g71 at gmail.com (juan)
Date: Thu, 4 Aug 2016 17:33:26 -0300
Subject: Pay for Play, Influence Peddling, Tor and Hillary/Russia
In-Reply-To: <455787e17298f1aded5ec36c9c972ff0@riseup.net>
References: <579a62f6.ef24ed0a.805c6.9090@mx.google.com>
 <CAG2tMp4H8KSZVS75DqSaYw0omZ32_396J5AevqLqMbNpduP2ig@mail.gmail.com>
 <579a74a9.57a5370a.44210.a0e0@mx.google.com>
 <CAG2tMp6VMy4zWpmutTswZL5_iMkCa2jBsTpS=uFK4hWx-AnpTw@mail.gmail.com>
 <579bf47b.8d2a370a.c27ce.d1da@mx.google.com>
 <0a5bbe20-a784-7be5-7367-3318558289dd@riseup.net>
 <CAG2tMp6jgVKyWtT2fdTBfbt436O1Ms4adB=K5NnQ1uDup1hU6A@mail.gmail.com>
 <579e87bd.c124c80a.0b33.2d53@mx.google.com>
 <307060768.9885305.1470165329492.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com>
 <9d016c3093b978813549d537f89a9780@openmailbox.org>
 <20160803024648.GC2616@x220-a02>
 <298402368.10776248.1470196812980.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com>
 <a2f87edb-5b32-55f3-ad93-dd761128017d@riseup.net>
 <57a286ca.6239ed0a.d0e4b.f661@mx.google.com>
 <e710f3d9-ab14-f3fd-b48e-d51de3c419e3@riseup.net>
 <57a2c103.4c64370a.22ed0.19eb@mx.google.com>
 <455787e17298f1aded5ec36c9c972ff0@riseup.net>
Message-ID: <57a3a596.0a24ed0a.73d49.c823@mx.google.com>

On Thu, 04 Aug 2016 09:35:27 -0700
Razer <rayzer at riseup.net> wrote:

> On 2016-08-03 21:18, juan wrote:
> > On Wed, 3 Aug 2016 18:29:32 -0700
> > 
> > 
> > 	Your comment is rather ambiguous. What's your point then?
> > Are you finally admiting that the tor project is even more of a joke
> > 	than it already was, now featuring built-in-censorship
> > (TM)? Or what.
> > 
> > 
> 
> 
> You aren't very bright. That's what I'm saying.
> 

	Oh, OK. Feel free to call me stupid =) - It's nice to see that
	you are changing your tune about the tor corporation though...


> If you didn't note the insinuation in what I wrote You should note it 
> now. Troll.
> 
> Rr





From cecilia.tanaka at gmail.com  Thu Aug  4 13:59:07 2016
From: cecilia.tanaka at gmail.com (Cecilia Tanaka)
Date: Thu, 4 Aug 2016 17:59:07 -0300
Subject: Anarchist Bibliography, please? (was Re: Deconstructing an
 Institutional Slander...)
In-Reply-To: <8f115fae-5655-ca28-0250-dab17c397cbe@pilobilus.net>
References: <CAG2tMp6-KfNr0VgiddoLxHcHw6CzyU=uLJCdCsvo9EsBE8gTeQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAG2tMp5MQaDC5c8cZ4EeMFoc0kmdAp0S+dG8fUc8+jkiP5F5uA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAG2tMp512JL9-6r+6Cgqp5n__Aa49WCPv+UmrKmAT7OXP7xwvg@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAG2tMp5dWWyBcRUmO8EEoUjPZLGnBqBCX-B8mpzKKNsGsGWhUg@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAG2tMp7R2Lo0RN11qkC_iC9-4=2gHzpbcZEOoLtRFkCJ6Cf_KA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAG2tMp70VXbY+0GJs3HApMq71TcBympeLg3QUuDDdHwmC6Cqwg@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAG2tMp4=q0aFUjcS8Gei2J9FqYfQnsWg0E5Vh_OtGjVuJ-_V0Q@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAG2tMp55nML9+v0hnLVfe+OqPsCMUNiB66FR-VjmTn3pkGSTRw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAG2tMp7M3BpOUOcv6fkOYK=cYvYCWmg3nFrL8QSGBF0JPr5pjg@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAG2tMp5A5AxiYHR4JQ-ECFCy80nsa8-xxYw5gs5vMEfHtHKRgg@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAG2tMp4HdMnuXO7K5OvAie1+f1bsU5_iDg-nEcy=PTvJfV+XFA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAG2tMp6sd1r-FwLWd2SmQTQ-JJJpCPyU9hDKKKkew8symGGtJQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAG2tMp5CmWA9rzgwDpe9XDYbOcKooAq15PrDD1UtorcnPZo--Q@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAG2tMp5VUSFrJJXVXU35VBkY4trmH8K+7yECpnQAvfX7iRF3qQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <8f115fae-5655-ca28-0250-dab17c397cbe@pilobilus.net>
Message-ID: <CAG2tMp6pYmzNd80mMfNYK1KYOHBrvQEaELCpQbxA2kqzMAE1Fw@mail.gmail.com>

Thank you a lot, my dear Steve.  Muuaah!  :*

Really loved your bibliographic references and your cute private message
about anarchism.  Thanks a lot for increasing my vocabulary with new
graceful and interesting expressions too.  I frequently need a dictionary
when reading your messages and Mirimir's, so it's very fun, haha!!  ;D

I was in doubt about sharing your suggestions publicly and would ask about
it later, so I am very thankful for this message.  Very sweet of you,
dear!  <3

Tender kisses and tickles!  :*

Ceci  (+_+)  zzzleepy zombie mode on, sorry!  zzz...
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From scfith at riseup.net  Thu Aug  4 15:27:30 2016
From: scfith at riseup.net (Sci Fith)
Date: Thu, 4 Aug 2016 18:27:30 -0400
Subject: Quantum entangled-photon Chinese satellite.
In-Reply-To: <1359771938.2091832.1470347891966.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com>
References: <255450741.10726589.1470277325532.JavaMail.yahoo.ref@mail.yahoo.com>
 <255450741.10726589.1470277325532.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com>
 <687871470314039@web15g.yandex.ru>
 <1603947053.11044988.1470329352392.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com>
 <57a3a57f.0703370a.241d8.c3ea@mx.google.com>
 <1359771938.2091832.1470347891966.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <39F9132D-2889-4688-9A50-1ECC3B26511A@riseup.net>

I believe our understanding of info transfer needs to change. The data is not traveling anywhere because it appears to exist simultaneously here & there and when one changes the other does without delay. There has to be another dimension of energy / ether we need to discover that would make this make sense. Like looking into a fish pond but the fish don't see surface, only your hand dipping in water as a miraculous occurrence. 

jamescampbell.us
7032039877

> On Aug 4, 2016, at 5:58 PM, jim bell <jdb10987 at yahoo.com> wrote:
> 
> 
> 
> From: juan <juan.g71 at gmail.com>
> On Thu, 4 Aug 2016 16:49:12 +0000 (UTC)
> jim bell <jdb10987 at yahoo.com> wrote:
> 
> >> Apparently, that is true.   The tantalizing thing is that SOMETHING
> >> APPEARS   (information, of some nature) to be transferred between one
> >> particle and another, distant one, and yet there seems to be no way
> >> to use that transfer to actually transmit useful FTL 
> 
>  >  Which sounds rather absurd no?
> 
> Certainly that sounds absurd!   It IS absurd!  Which explains a lot of the fascination
> has for entangled photons and related phenomena.  Einstein never liked the 
> quantum-mechanics idea, famously declaring "God does not play dice with the
> universe".     Unfortunately for Einstein, dice are actually played.
> 
> In fact, Einstein's EPR Paradox (Einstein, Podolski, Rosen) was invented by
> Einstein himself in an attempt to prove that quantum mechanics could not
> be a complete statement of the problem. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/EPR_paradox 
> 
> This principle said that IF quantum mechanics 
> were a complete statement of the problem, then something seemingly 
> impossible [fill in the blank with FTL information travel] would occur.  Einstein was
> quite convinced that nothing (including no information) could travel faster than
> 'c'.  Amazingly, it appears that nature ("God", for the religious among you) has acted
> simultaneously to protect the quantum mechanics theory, but ALSO to protect 
> Einstein's belief that nothing could travel faster than 'c'.   If anybody should discover
> a method to use entangled photons to effectively transmit data FTL (and thus,
> presumably at infinite speed) that person would surely deserve a Nobel Prize in
> Physics.
> 
> 
>  >Either this is ordinary EM
>  > phenomena that propagate at the so called speed of light, or
>  > it is something else which could propagate at 'faster than
>  > light' speed. 
> 
> It's at least 10,000 times 'c' the speed of light in a vacuum, according to
> experiments involving fiber optics.  It might be essentially infinite.
> 
>   >  If 'something' is moving at faster than light speed, then some
>   > information must be being transmitted. If no information is
> >    being transmitted, then by definition, there's no way to measure
>   >  speed and the claim makes no sense.
> 
> Well, that's the problem.  Knowing that SOMETHING is being transmitted, and actually
> USING that method to transmit useful information, are (quite strangely) two different
> things.  That, also is the amazing implications of entangled photons.
> 
>                Jim Bell
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From juan.g71 at gmail.com  Thu Aug  4 14:51:39 2016
From: juan.g71 at gmail.com (juan)
Date: Thu, 4 Aug 2016 18:51:39 -0300
Subject: Quantum entangled-photon Chinese satellite.
In-Reply-To: <968A3F27-DDED-4DA8-909C-01C472D72E67@riseup.net>
References: <255450741.10726589.1470277325532.JavaMail.yahoo.ref@mail.yahoo.com>
 <255450741.10726589.1470277325532.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com>
 <687871470314039@web15g.yandex.ru>
 <1603947053.11044988.1470329352392.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com>
 <57a3a57f.0703370a.241d8.c3ea@mx.google.com>
 <968A3F27-DDED-4DA8-909C-01C472D72E67@riseup.net>
Message-ID: <57a3b7f0.562ac80a.2216c.e1a9@mx.google.com>

On Thu, 4 Aug 2016 17:32:19 -0400
Sci Fith <scfith at riseup.net> wrote:

> Quantum entanglement is real. Sounds like you have some reading to
> do. ;)

	Really? I hope that isn't some sort of appeal to authority...


> basically once particles are associated they can communicate 

	How long does it take for a change in particle 'A' to reach
	particle 'B'?
	


> stay in sync regardless of distance. Amazing stuff. 
> 
> > On Aug 4, 2016, at 4:33 PM, juan <juan.g71 at gmail.com> wrote:
> > 
> > On Thu, 4 Aug 2016 16:49:12 +0000 (UTC)
> > jim bell <jdb10987 at yahoo.com> wrote:
> > 
> >> 
> >> 
> >> Apparently, that is true.   The tantalizing thing is that SOMETHING
> >> APPEARS   (information, of some nature) to be transferred between
> >> one particle and another, distant one, and yet there seems to be
> >> no way to use that transfer to actually transmit useful FTL
> > 
> >    Which sounds rather absurd no? Either this is ordinary EM
> >    phenomena that propagate at the so called speed of light, or
> >    it is something else which could propagate at 'faster than
> >    light' speed. 
> > 
> >    If 'something' is moving at faster than light speed, then some
> >    information must be being transmitted. If no information is
> >    being transmitted, then by definition, there's no way to measure
> >    speed and the claim makes no sense.
> > 
> > 
> > 
> >> (faster than
> >> light) information.                 Jim Bell
> >> 
> >> From: Bastiani Fortress <bastianifortress at yandex.com>
> >> Quantum entanglement does not provide information passing faster
> >> than light, afaik. Either i misunderstood the news, or it's being
> >> falsely advertised.
> >> 
> >> 5:43 AM, August 4, 2016, jim bell <jdb10987 at yahoo.com>:
> >> 
> >> http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sciencetech/article-3720772/China-launch-unbreakable-quantum-spy-satellite-say-one-day-lead-megascope-size-Earth-spot-license-plate-Jupiter-s-moons.html
> >> 
> >> [quote]
> >> China to launch unbreakable quantum spy satellite - and it could
> >> one day lead to a megascope the size of Earth that could 'spot a
> >> license plate on Jupiter's moons'Satellite produces entangled
> >> photon pairs which form an encryption keyThese photons will
> >> theoretically remain linked over great distancesThis means that
> >> any attempts to listen in will be detected on the other
> >> sideScientists say this could one day make for a secure global
> >> network 
> >> 
> >> Scientists in China are set to launch the world’s first ‘quantum
> >> satellite,’ which could one day make for an ultra-secure global
> >> communications network. The 1,300 pound craft contains a crystal
> >> that produces pairs of entangled photons, which will be fired to
> >> ground stations in China and Austria to form a ‘secret key.’
> >> Entangled photons theoretically maintain their link across any
> >> distance, and according to the scientists, any attempts to breach
> >> this type of communication would be easily detectable. [end of
> >> portion quoted]
> >> 
> >> 
> >>                    Jim Bell
> >> 
> >> 
> >> (I have big questions about some of these statements in this
> >> article. But given the subject matter, quantum entanglement,
> >> confusion by lay individuals is to be expected.)
> > 
> > 
> 





From juan.g71 at gmail.com  Thu Aug  4 15:28:47 2016
From: juan.g71 at gmail.com (juan)
Date: Thu, 4 Aug 2016 19:28:47 -0300
Subject: Quantum entangled-photon Chinese satellite.
In-Reply-To: <1359771938.2091832.1470347891966.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com>
References: <255450741.10726589.1470277325532.JavaMail.yahoo.ref@mail.yahoo.com>
 <255450741.10726589.1470277325532.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com>
 <687871470314039@web15g.yandex.ru>
 <1603947053.11044988.1470329352392.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com>
 <57a3a57f.0703370a.241d8.c3ea@mx.google.com>
 <1359771938.2091832.1470347891966.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <57a3c0a1.84bd370a.2e08f.dde4@mx.google.com>

On Thu, 4 Aug 2016 21:58:11 +0000 (UTC)
jim bell <jdb10987 at yahoo.com> wrote:

> 
> 
>  From: juan <juan.g71 at gmail.com>
> On Thu, 4 Aug 2016 16:49:12 +0000 (UTC)
> jim bell <jdb10987 at yahoo.com> wrote:
> 
> >> Apparently, that is true.   The tantalizing thing is that SOMETHING
> >> APPEARS   (information, of some nature) to be transferred between
> >> one particle and another, distant one, and yet there seems to be
> >> no way to use that transfer to actually transmit useful FTL 
> 
>  >  Which sounds rather absurd no?
> Certainly that sounds absurd!   It IS absurd! 


	Oh, OK. So I don't need to bother with patently false theories.
	Because that's what 'absurd' implies. 


> Which explains a lot
> of the fascinationhas for entangled photons and related phenomena.

	I don't follow. I don't think absurd ideas are 'fascinating'.
	And at any rate it should be obvious that absurd ideas have no
	place in rational discourse, or 'science'.


>  Einstein never liked the quantum-mechanics idea, famously declaring
> "God does not play dice with theuniverse".    

	A sensible remark, if you take out the god bullshit. And as I
	think you know, there are many so called 'interpretations' of
	QM and not all of them are absurd (i.e. patently false).


> Unfortunately for
> Einstein, dice are actually played. 


	So says one faction of the 'scientific' establishment. Just like
	statists say that the state is legitimate. 


> 
>  >Either this is ordinary EM
>  > phenomena that propagate at the so called speed of light, or
>  > it is something else which could propagate at 'faster than
>  > light' speed. 

> It's at least 10,000 times 'c' the speed of light in a vacuum,
> according toexperiments involving fiber optics.  It might be
> essentially infinite.


	It can't be infinite, but it certainly can be faster than
	light. So somebody actually did the measurements?



> 
>   >  If 'something' is moving at faster than light speed, then some
>   > information must be being transmitted. If no information is
> >    being transmitted, then by definition, there's no way to measure
>   >  speed and the claim makes no sense.

> Well, that's the problem. 
> Knowing that SOMETHING is being
> transmitted, and actually USING that method to transmit useful
> information, are (quite strangely) two different things. 


	If you know that 'something' was transmitted, then al least one
	bit of information was transmitted, no? 

	Again, either information is being transmitted at FTL speed or
	not. So, what is being claimed here?

	And if at least one bit can be transmitted, then I wouldn't be
	surprised if more than one bit could be sent too. 



> That, also
> is the amazing implications of entangled photons.

> 
>                Jim Bell
>   






From afalex169 at gmail.com  Thu Aug  4 09:56:40 2016
From: afalex169 at gmail.com (=?UTF-8?B?0JDQu9C10LrRgdCw0L3QtNGA?=)
Date: Thu, 4 Aug 2016 19:56:40 +0300
Subject: I swear I'm not making this up
In-Reply-To: <1796685685.11147764.1470328936351.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com>
References: <57a2dc2e.842f370a.8b7de.2348@mx.google.com>
 <372891470299735@web10o.yandex.ru>
 <1796685685.11147764.1470328936351.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <CAEm6KbJyqN=G5H4JgdaHeeLZa0z=PPzsD9rdZWjK-yTGaPtbAg@mail.gmail.com>

2016-08-04 19:42 GMT+03:00 jim bell <jdb10987 at yahoo.com>:

> Double-standard?


As always. As in everything. Double. Standards.
Or more precisely - a lack of any standards at all!
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From seanl at literati.org  Thu Aug  4 13:31:12 2016
From: seanl at literati.org (Sean Lynch)
Date: Thu, 04 Aug 2016 20:31:12 +0000
Subject: FM Corporations/ businesses/ entitities
In-Reply-To: <20160803005130.GA2616@x220-a02>
References: <20160730013607.GB17721@x220-a02>
 <CAHKdp-kxQf7CnCx1xSTCDEcELn7Cs4-vtkrpA5Oxqw1_5B8vRQ@mail.gmail.com>
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Message-ID: <CAHKdp-=uZWi+LF7e_yRpMJtb+Gzrjk5uN4_m3HL=eWYy6TbYng@mail.gmail.com>

On Tue, Aug 2, 2016 at 6:03 PM Zenaan Harkness <zen at freedbms.net> wrote:

> On Tue, Aug 02, 2016 at 08:36:24PM +0000, Sean Lynch wrote:
> > On Fri, Jul 29, 2016 at 6:51 PM Zenaan Harkness <zen at freedbms.net>
> wrote:
> > > On Fri, Jul 29, 2016 at 09:45:40PM -0300, juan wrote:
> > > > On Fri, 29 Jul 2016 13:43:12 +0300
> > > > Georgi Guninski <guninski at guninski.com> wrote:
>
> ...
>
> > even if those institutions are entirely
> > voluntary. I can imagine sets of institutions that would allow
> corporations
> > in a similar sense to how they exist now, i.e. limited liability and some
> > form of "personhood."
>
> 'limited liability' means that the owners of the company cannot be
> personally sued.
>
> An anarchic company only exists by those who freely agree to it, and
> someone wanting to attach an individual (legally, financially,
> personally) may not have agreed to be part of that company, may
> vehemently disagree with "the corporate veil" of protection by "statute
> fiction".
>
> It's a different way of thinking - we are so schooled in current
> 'realities' (real fictions, or shared common delusions) of "Western
> style democratic fascist government".
>

Agreed. I'm just saying that such an arrangement is not inconceivable in an
anarchic/voluntary society. And without the state to force it on everyone,
assuming no single "court" system comes to dominate and abuse its monopoly
position, I doubt it could be nearly as harmful. And even if some court
does become a monopoly, since opting out of even a monopoly voluntary court
system is far easier than opting out of a state.


> > The most likely such institution would be some kind
> > of court system where, in order to have access to the court as a means of
> > seeking restitution, you must agree not to go outside it to go after any
> > other participant, and must not have done so before.
>
> Your initial wording is fine on the face, but whilst my "aggrieved self"
> might be willing to agree to 'court' arbitration, "limited liability
> fictional entity" may well not even make sense, and yet in the current
> world we are 'bound' by government statutes giving that real protection
> to those owners/ directors of that fictional entity.
>

Agreed. Though even under the status quo there are situations where
corporations lose their limited liability, such as in certain criminal
scenarios. Limited liability can only apply in a voluntary society where a
transaction has taken place. Third parties can always sue in some court
that does not recognize the limited liability, and it may well be that even
within the same court system, they decided to drastically limit the scope
of limited liability, for example only to situations where a transaction
has taken place. Not sure what that would mean to, say, product liability
where a third party is injured, though. But unlimited product liability
could result in a far smaller number of products. Who'd make a car, for
example? Or an airliner? Sure, the airline could require passengers to
agree not to sue, but they can't do that for people on the ground. Under
the status quo there's blanket indemnification for airlines and aircraft
manufacturers. That is probably not the best solution, but I also don't
know what is or how one would implement it in a purely voluntary society.
Intuitively I think (hope) it must be possible, but I am by no means
certain.

Or maybe unlimited liability is just no big deal and limited liability has
always just been a way for some people to gain advantage over others.
Perhaps without a system like the US's that encourages frivolous lawsuits,
there would be no need.


> > I see revolutions as a symptom of a broken society. Reform, or evolution,
> > is certainly preferable.
>
> Revolution arises when too few attempt to stand in peaceful (or other)
> political protests, in personal non-compliance (driver licenses, vehicle
> rego, paying tax to the war machine, not running off in the army to
> shoot brown people) and the situation deteriorates to the point that the
> ideological extremists collectively agree that there is no option but
> revolution.
>

I think by the time revolution happens, people HAVE done these things, and
the government's response has been to crack down rather than reforming.
Exactly what is happening in the US right now with police brutality.
Perhaps if more people got involved, the government could have been
convinced to reform rather than cracking down further, but it is a central
tenet of governing that you need to have a reasonably large and productive
class that is happy with its modicum of control, i.e. the "middle" class.
Keep them happy and protected from the lower class, and you can keep
society under control.


> Unfortunately, revolution is the usual way of things, since the majority
> are too shit cowardly to rock any boat, even a dinghy cause "gotta go to
> the footy this weekend", "gotta pay the mortgage/ car loan", "gotta
> live my useless irrelevant life", when deep down it is truly fear,
> mostly unacknowledged fear.
>

I suppose it depends on how you're counting. Reform happens all the time.
Not often reforms the size of what you get from revolutions, but I'd say
far more positive change happens through gradual reform than directly from
revolution. But perhaps I'm setting the bar too low by qualifying it with
"directly."


>
> > > We must always remember it is never the arm chair pundit ("oh I wish
> our
> > > democracy elected representatives actually represented us") crowd who
> > > will change the world.
> > >
> > > So historically, revolutions seem to be more a devolution than an
> > > evolution of the status quo. If you have counter examples, please
> > > highlight them now.
> >
> > The French and English revolutions both resulted, after a while, in
> better
> > societies than they started in, as far as I can tell. The Haitian
> > revolution ended slavery there. I don't consider the American revolution,
> > on the other hand, to be a counter example, though it clearly inspired
> the
> > French revolution. Not to say that the French revolution and other
> reforms
> > of European monarchies wouldn't have happened anyway.
>
> As I've said, by the time the ex-convict Aussies wanted more control
> from the "Crown", the English monarchy was well and truly on the page -
> a genuinely peaceful transition (yes, not for the Aboriginies being
> slaughtered since 100 years prior).
>
>
> > One of the pieces of evidence used against Ross Ulbricht was a post of
> his
> > in which he stated, "I am creating an economic simulation to give people
> a
> > first-hand experience of what it would be like to live in a world without
> > the systemic use of force." Whether or not Silk Road was that
> "simulation",
> > the general statement is exactly what we need to do, in my opinion.
> Create
> > systems of "law" and "governance" that do not require the use of force.
>
> Although I prefer revolution to evolution, I do not agree that force has
> no place.
>
> Force has different dimensions too - we think superficially about
> physical and violent force. But consider that our white Western
> oligarch's use the courts to force us to comply with an endless litany
> of evil and unfair laws (yes they are backed up by police with guns, but
> 10,000 people just saying "no" is a challenging number of people to put
> in jail in a two month time frame - for not paying tax for example).
>

"If only enough people would resist". But keeping people from resisting en
masse is government's specialty. This is classic prisoners' dilemma. As
Mike explains in The Moon is a Harsh Mistress, sometimes you have to make
things worse before they get better. I.e. convince people to revolt by
making it so they are no longer comfortable.


> > These systems do not have to be all-encompassing; they can be small and
> > narrow in scope. They just have to make it so people don't feel like they
> > have to resort to government (i.e. force) to achieve their ends.
>
> There is obvious low hanging fruit - eg. legalising all plants and
> substance ingestion by (naturally experimental and contrarian and
> rebellious) humans. I heard Portugal became an example of this to a
> degree, but perhaps the person saying this to me mixed it up with
> Amsterdam.
>

I think Uruguay is actually on the forefront of drug legalization. Colorado
is ahead of Amsterdam, even, because drugs have never really been legal
there. Buying and using is legal, but a bunch of other necessary parts like
growing & transporting are not. The authorities just look the other way,
but can change their minds at any time and have cracked down in the past.


> > Security of property and computer systems is an area that's pretty ripe
> for
> > non-government solutions.
>
> Sorry, in most cases today, it is government legislation/ statutes/
> protectionism which causes the problem.
>

> For example, try establishing a minimum cost wireless internet access
> provision 'FM enterprise' - even Google is having trouble against the
> telecomms giants, and Google has plenty of money for lawyers.
>

Indeed, and even if/when it succeeds, Google will just become another
vertically-integrated telecomms giant.


> One has to go -really- grass roots to avoid the despotism of government
> - neighbour to neighbour/ N2N community mesh networks may be possible to
> do in the face of corporations and governments (who naturally oppose and
> gang up together).
>
> Regarding "private" networking, I have seen no comms protocol research
> showing that you can achieve anonymity in the face of the global
> passive/active adversary (GPA), which we know the western "5 eyes"
> governments and spy agencies are.
>

Research can never prove something is secure, only that it's insecure. Low
latency onion routing is about as crappy as you can get when it comes to
anonymity, just a step above a chain of proxies. I see no reason a high
latency mix net couldn't be made sufficiently secure with, say, operators
in mutually antagonistic countries.


> Longer term, we need our own physical N2N mesh network.
>

Maybe. Definitely if you assume that government will eventually outlaw all
anonymous use of the Internet. Of course, then they could always phrase the
legislation in such a way that an N2N mesh network is also covered. Are you
forwarding packets from your neighbor to a different neighbor? Well, you're
"providing a public communications service" or some such bullshit.
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From zen at freedbms.net  Thu Aug  4 03:58:19 2016
From: zen at freedbms.net (Zenaan Harkness)
Date: Thu, 4 Aug 2016 20:58:19 +1000
Subject: Feminism: The Lovechild of Patriarchy and Capitalism
Message-ID: <20160804105819.GJ2570@x220-a02>

I guess that's "Feminism" rather than "feminism"

Feminism: The Lovechild of Patriarchy and Capitalism
http://thesaker.is/feminism-the-lovechild-of-patriarchy-and-capitalism/




From zen at freedbms.net  Thu Aug  4 04:24:00 2016
From: zen at freedbms.net (Zenaan Harkness)
Date: Thu, 4 Aug 2016 21:24:00 +1000
Subject: [RUS] [SAKER] False flags =?utf-8?Q?flutte?=
 =?utf-8?Q?ring_in_the_Empire=E2=80=99s?= hot air
Message-ID: <20160804112400.GK2570@x220-a02>

 Saker Message:

 False flags fluttering in the Empire’s hot air
 13489 Views July 29, 2016
 This article was written for the Unz Review:

 http://www.unz.com/tsaker/false-flags-fluttering-in-the-empires-hot-air/

 http://thesaker.is/false-flags-fluttering-in-the-empires-hot-air/

Classic Saker for the archives, enjoy - and feel free to quote your
favourite quote :)

With the Saker's level of discourse, perhaps there's hope for us yet..






















































<70 blank lines stupid filter>




From juan.g71 at gmail.com  Thu Aug  4 17:34:33 2016
From: juan.g71 at gmail.com (juan)
Date: Thu, 4 Aug 2016 21:34:33 -0300
Subject: Anarchist Bibliography, please? (was Re: Deconstructing an
 Institutional Slander...)
In-Reply-To: <CAG2tMp5VUSFrJJXVXU35VBkY4trmH8K+7yECpnQAvfX7iRF3qQ@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAG2tMp6-KfNr0VgiddoLxHcHw6CzyU=uLJCdCsvo9EsBE8gTeQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAG2tMp5MQaDC5c8cZ4EeMFoc0kmdAp0S+dG8fUc8+jkiP5F5uA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAG2tMp512JL9-6r+6Cgqp5n__Aa49WCPv+UmrKmAT7OXP7xwvg@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAG2tMp5dWWyBcRUmO8EEoUjPZLGnBqBCX-B8mpzKKNsGsGWhUg@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAG2tMp7R2Lo0RN11qkC_iC9-4=2gHzpbcZEOoLtRFkCJ6Cf_KA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAG2tMp70VXbY+0GJs3HApMq71TcBympeLg3QUuDDdHwmC6Cqwg@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAG2tMp4=q0aFUjcS8Gei2J9FqYfQnsWg0E5Vh_OtGjVuJ-_V0Q@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAG2tMp55nML9+v0hnLVfe+OqPsCMUNiB66FR-VjmTn3pkGSTRw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAG2tMp7M3BpOUOcv6fkOYK=cYvYCWmg3nFrL8QSGBF0JPr5pjg@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAG2tMp5A5AxiYHR4JQ-ECFCy80nsa8-xxYw5gs5vMEfHtHKRgg@mail.gmail.com>
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 <CAG2tMp5CmWA9rzgwDpe9XDYbOcKooAq15PrDD1UtorcnPZo--Q@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAG2tMp5VUSFrJJXVXU35VBkY4trmH8K+7yECpnQAvfX7iRF3qQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <57a3de1b.4224c80a.8c9df.fc61@mx.google.com>

On Thu, 4 Aug 2016 04:00:47 -0300
Cecilia Tanaka <cecilia.tanaka at gmail.com> wrote:


> I was thinking about asking you some suggestions of good anarchist
> readings, because I made some searches and  - wow! -  the
> bibliography is really huge.  

	Yes, and I only know a small fraction of it...

> I need some help to separate the wheat
> from the shaft, please.  

	I can recommend stuff I like and I know is good, but there may
	be other good stuff I don't know and am missing. Anyway, having
	done the limited-liability, standard disclaimer...


	Bakunin is pretty good. He goes to the heart of anti
	authoritarian philosophy mocking the authority of the state,
	religion, 'science' and society.

	https://theanarchistlibrary.org/library/michail-bakunin-man-society-and-freedom.html
	
-------

	Lysander Spooner (a natural rights lawyer)

	http://www.lysanderspooner.org/works/

	http://www.lysanderspooner.org/s/NO-TREASONn6.pdf
	http://www.lysanderspooner.org/s/NATURAL-LAW.pdf

------
	
	Gustave de Molinari - An economist/liberal who proposed
	to get rid of the state in 1849. 

	http://panarchy.org/molinari/molinari.html

	(1849) De la production de la sécurité [Français]
	http://panarchy.org/molinari/securite.html 
	(1849) On the Production of Security [English]
	http://panarchy.org/molinari/security.html

	(1849) The Evenings of the rue Saint-Lazare - Eleventh Evening

	[English] http://panarchy.org/molinari/eleven.html

	Whole book in french : 
	Les Soirées de la rue Saint-Lazare Entretiens sur les lois
	économiques et défense de la propriété

	http://herve.dequengo.free.fr/Molinari/Molinari.htm
	http://herve.dequengo.free.fr/Molinari/SRSL/SRSL_0.htm

------

	Voluntary socialism; a sketch Tandy, Francis Dashwood
	https://archive.org/details/voluntarysociali00tandrich

	That one is interesting because what Tandy calls 'voluntary
	socialism' is rather close to what today is called 'market
	anarchism'.

	In Tandy's 'socialism' there are private firms whose job is to
	defend person and property...which is pure blasphemy for
	ordinary commies. 

------

	Another interesting economist/liberal, 

	Thomas Hodgskin -  The Natural and Artificial Right of Property
	Contrasted [1832] 

	http://oll.libertyfund.org/titles/hodgskin-the-natural-and-artificial-right-of-property-contrasted/simple
	
	(I'm not sure if Hodgskin strictly belongs to the anarchist
	category. I had some quotes that suggested so, but I can't find
	them now. Anyway he's pretty radical and was plagiarized
	by marx)


------


	If more authors come to mind, I'll add them.



> Or a guide "Advanced Anarchism for
> Dummies".  I know only the baby steps, sorry.  :(
> 
> I asked Steve some suggestions in private, but it's better to ask
> publicly, so more people can profit the clues.  Oh, you know, he
> loves books, uses cute emoticons and makes oink oink.  He's a good
> reference for me, hahaha!!  ;)
> 
> Tender kisses for all of you!  <3
> 
> Ceci






From jdb10987 at yahoo.com  Thu Aug  4 14:37:46 2016
From: jdb10987 at yahoo.com (jim bell)
Date: Thu, 4 Aug 2016 21:37:46 +0000 (UTC)
Subject: Anarchist Bibliography, please? (was Re: Deconstructing an
 Institutional Slander...)
In-Reply-To: <8f115fae-5655-ca28-0250-dab17c397cbe@pilobilus.net>
References: <CAG2tMp6-KfNr0VgiddoLxHcHw6CzyU=uLJCdCsvo9EsBE8gTeQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAG2tMp5MQaDC5c8cZ4EeMFoc0kmdAp0S+dG8fUc8+jkiP5F5uA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAG2tMp512JL9-6r+6Cgqp5n__Aa49WCPv+UmrKmAT7OXP7xwvg@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAG2tMp5dWWyBcRUmO8EEoUjPZLGnBqBCX-B8mpzKKNsGsGWhUg@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAG2tMp7R2Lo0RN11qkC_iC9-4=2gHzpbcZEOoLtRFkCJ6Cf_KA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAG2tMp70VXbY+0GJs3HApMq71TcBympeLg3QUuDDdHwmC6Cqwg@mail.gmail.com>
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Message-ID: <33853580.4670357.1470346666605.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com>



 From: Steve Kinney <admin at pilobilus.net>

On 08/04/2016 03:00 AM, Cecilia Tanaka wrote:
>> I asked Steve some suggestions in private, but it's better to ask 
>> publicly, so more people can profit the clues.  Oh, you know, he
>> loves books, uses cute emoticons and makes oink oink.  He's a good
>> reference for me, hahaha!!  ;)

>When dredging the Internet for information, I am sure you won't have
>much trouble picking out the State sponsored anarchist literature and
>pseudo-radical propaganda fronts: 


I hope people will forgive me for tooting my own horn.  I was a minarchist Libertarian in 1994,not an anarchist Libertarian.  But it wasn't because I somehow wanted to keep around someminimal government.  Rather, it was because I couldn't figure out a logically-consistent method'to entirely get rid of those last vestiges of government.  Lacking such an plausible method,I chose the intellectually-honest route of accepting (at the time) that some residual governmentwould be necessary.
While not specifically aware of David Friedman's (son of famous economist Milton Friedman)"Hard Problem"  http://econlog.econlib.org/archives/2009/04/will_david_frie.html   , from his book, "The Machinery of Freedom" (1973; revised in 1989; again 2014),  I was effectivelyaware of the  same barrier, and like Friedman, I could not see any solution.  Anarchy, I concluded, was impractical, and unachievable. 
It's a good thing that I wasn't aware of Friedman's "Hard Problem", or the idea it was "hard".In January 1995 I because to contemplate the idea that turned into my "AssassinationPolitics" essay.   https://cryptome.org/ap.htm  
  I wasn't intending to solve that problem:  Rather, I was trying to figure out howan otherwise-powerless public could defend itself from bad acts, mostly from governmentemployees.  I realized that to combine the contributions of anonymous individuals,  allowsthat public can deter and prevent those bad acts.  I further realized that this system wouldbe extremely economical, allowing (for instance) the region known as "America" to defenditself, not merely from external threats, but also internal crime, probably for a total cost of under $1 billion per year, far less than the $600 billion in defense spending currently done.

A simplistic, initial analysis (which I initially assumed, even before I wrote the first part of theAP essay) was that AP would simply fix government.  But the ultimate "fix" was actually farmore powerful than I'd initially realized, not merely fixing governments, but destroying allgovernments, and thus protecting an anarchist or minarchist region from threatening neighbors.
Put simply, I solved David Friedman's "Hard Problem".  I haven't yet seen the 2014 revisionof his book, Machinery of Freedom, to see if he has acknowledged this yet.    I think it wouldbe extraordinarily strange if he doesn't do so:  After all, ostensibly we are on the same sideof this matter.  He advocates a zero-government solution:  Why wouldn't he cite a proofthat a zero-government solution is actually possible, contrary to his apparent previousopinion?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Machinery_of_Freedom 
But in effect, I think I was quite correct, pre-1995, for me  to believe that anarchy was impractical.   I don't know how people who labelled themselves as 'anarchists'  resolvedthe apparent contradiction.  Were they aware that anarchy wasn't stable?  (At least notabsent my 1995 invention, AP).   Most likely I think they were simply unaware that anarchywasn't going to be stable.  Or, perhaps they assumed that then-future events would somehowsolve the problem.  As, ultimately, they did, but it didn't have to be that way.  I, virtually byaccident, solved that problem.  But things could have been very different.
                Jim Bell


  
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From jdb10987 at yahoo.com  Thu Aug  4 14:58:11 2016
From: jdb10987 at yahoo.com (jim bell)
Date: Thu, 4 Aug 2016 21:58:11 +0000 (UTC)
Subject: Quantum entangled-photon Chinese satellite.
In-Reply-To: <57a3a57f.0703370a.241d8.c3ea@mx.google.com>
References: <255450741.10726589.1470277325532.JavaMail.yahoo.ref@mail.yahoo.com>
 <255450741.10726589.1470277325532.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com>
 <687871470314039@web15g.yandex.ru>
 <1603947053.11044988.1470329352392.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com>
 <57a3a57f.0703370a.241d8.c3ea@mx.google.com>
Message-ID: <1359771938.2091832.1470347891966.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com>



 From: juan <juan.g71 at gmail.com>
On Thu, 4 Aug 2016 16:49:12 +0000 (UTC)
jim bell <jdb10987 at yahoo.com> wrote:

>> Apparently, that is true.   The tantalizing thing is that SOMETHING
>> APPEARS   (information, of some nature) to be transferred between one
>> particle and another, distant one, and yet there seems to be no way
>> to use that transfer to actually transmit useful FTL 

 >  Which sounds rather absurd no?
Certainly that sounds absurd!   It IS absurd!  Which explains a lot of the fascinationhas for entangled photons and related phenomena.  Einstein never liked the quantum-mechanics idea, famously declaring "God does not play dice with theuniverse".     Unfortunately for Einstein, dice are actually played.
In fact, Einstein's EPR Paradox (Einstein, Podolski, Rosen) was invented byEinstein himself in an attempt to prove that quantum mechanics could notbe a complete statement of the problem. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/EPR_paradox 
This principle said that IF quantum mechanics were a complete statement of the problem, then something seemingly impossible [fill in the blank with FTL information travel] would occur.  Einstein wasquite convinced that nothing (including no information) could travel faster than'c'.  Amazingly, it appears that nature ("God", for the religious among you) has actedsimultaneously to protect the quantum mechanics theory, but ALSO to protect Einstein's belief that nothing could travel faster than 'c'.   If anybody should discovera method to use entangled photons to effectively transmit data FTL (and thus,presumably at infinite speed) that person would surely deserve a Nobel Prize inPhysics.

 >Either this is ordinary EM
 > phenomena that propagate at the so called speed of light, or
 > it is something else which could propagate at 'faster than
 > light' speed. 
It's at least 10,000 times 'c' the speed of light in a vacuum, according toexperiments involving fiber optics.  It might be essentially infinite.

  >  If 'something' is moving at faster than light speed, then some
  > information must be being transmitted. If no information is
>    being transmitted, then by definition, there's no way to measure
  >  speed and the claim makes no sense.
Well, that's the problem.  Knowing that SOMETHING is being transmitted, and actuallyUSING that method to transmit useful information, are (quite strangely) two differentthings.  That, also is the amazing implications of entangled photons.

               Jim Bell
  
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From spencerone at openmailbox.org  Thu Aug  4 22:15:20 2016
From: spencerone at openmailbox.org (Spencer)
Date: Thu, 04 Aug 2016 22:15:20 -0700
Subject: FM Corporations/ businesses/ entitities
In-Reply-To: <CAHKdp-=Qq4wBweewC_VB7BwZUyyfSCqsxepDkspnCTLKZHfbKA@mail.gmail.com>
References: <20160730013607.GB17721@x220-a02>
 <CAHKdp-kxQf7CnCx1xSTCDEcELn7Cs4-vtkrpA5Oxqw1_5B8vRQ@mail.gmail.com>
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 <57a165d7.1724c80a.9ff72.18df@mx.google.com>
 <CAHKdp-=Qq4wBweewC_VB7BwZUyyfSCqsxepDkspnCTLKZHfbKA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <b282ef41182ef727f049ad7a632ada95@openmailbox.org>

Hi,

> 
> Sean Lynch:
> Google
> 

I thought you were that TapEngage guy :P

Wordlife,
Spencer







From seanl at literati.org  Thu Aug  4 15:22:47 2016
From: seanl at literati.org (Sean Lynch)
Date: Thu, 04 Aug 2016 22:22:47 +0000
Subject: FM Corporations/ businesses/ entitities
In-Reply-To: <57a165d7.1724c80a.9ff72.18df@mx.google.com>
References: <20160730013607.GB17721@x220-a02>
 <CAHKdp-kxQf7CnCx1xSTCDEcELn7Cs4-vtkrpA5Oxqw1_5B8vRQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <20160803005130.GA2616@x220-a02> <57a165d7.1724c80a.9ff72.18df@mx.google.com>
Message-ID: <CAHKdp-=Qq4wBweewC_VB7BwZUyyfSCqsxepDkspnCTLKZHfbKA@mail.gmail.com>

On Tue, Aug 2, 2016 at 8:41 PM juan <juan.g71 at gmail.com> wrote:

> On Wed, 3 Aug 2016 10:51:30 +1000
> Zenaan Harkness <zen at freedbms.net> wrote:
>
>
> > > even if those institutions are entirely
> > > voluntary. I can imagine sets of institutions that would allow
> > > corporations in a similar sense to how they exist now, i.e. limited
> > > liability and some form of "personhood."
> >
> > 'limited liability' means that the owners of the company cannot be
> > personally sued.
>
>
>         Yes. And the idea that a libertarian society or a truly free
>         market is going to copy mercantilistic devices from the 'ancien
>         regime' is unwarranted.
>

I'm not sure it's more unwarranted than the assumption that mercantilistic
devices are always the wrong ones.


>         I'm not surprised that Sean said that though, since Sean has a
>         rather 'naive' view about current fascist 'institutions' like
>         apple, facebook, uber, the tor project and other jewels from
>         the establishment's crown.
>

My view has been slowly shifting toward a more left anarchist one. But it
can only go so far before I have to quit my job at Google to avoid feeling
like too much of a hypocrite.
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From juan.g71 at gmail.com  Thu Aug  4 18:58:45 2016
From: juan.g71 at gmail.com (juan)
Date: Thu, 4 Aug 2016 22:58:45 -0300
Subject: Quantum entangled-photon Chinese satellite.
In-Reply-To: <20160805012907.GL2570@x220-a02>
References: <255450741.10726589.1470277325532.JavaMail.yahoo.ref@mail.yahoo.com>
 <255450741.10726589.1470277325532.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com>
 <687871470314039@web15g.yandex.ru>
 <1603947053.11044988.1470329352392.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com>
 <57a3a57f.0703370a.241d8.c3ea@mx.google.com>
 <1359771938.2091832.1470347891966.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com>
 <20160805012907.GL2570@x220-a02>
Message-ID: <57a3f1d9.012fed0a.814f7.fd06@mx.google.com>

On Fri, 5 Aug 2016 11:29:07 +1000
Zenaan Harkness <zen at freedbms.net> wrote:

> On Thu, Aug 04, 2016 at 09:58:11PM +0000, jim bell wrote:
> >  From: juan <juan.g71 at gmail.com>
> > On Thu, 4 Aug 2016 16:49:12 +0000 (UTC)
> > jim bell <jdb10987 at yahoo.com> wrote:
> 
> >   >  If 'something' is moving at faster than light speed, then some
> >   > information must be being transmitted. If no information is
> > >    being transmitted, then by definition, there's no way to
> > > measure
> >   >  speed and the claim makes no sense.
> > Well, that's the problem.  Knowing that SOMETHING is being
> > transmitted, and actuallyUSING that method to transmit useful
> > information, are (quite strangely) two differentthings.  That, also
> > is the amazing implications of entangled photons.
> 
> It does sound like the obvious is being missed - so entangled photon
> paris can be created, and we can know at one end, if the photon at the
> other end is "read", and this apparently happens at at a minimum of
> 10k.c;
> 
> Surely, one could simply create a suitably large number of entangled
> photon pairs, as an array, and then read them, or not read them, at
> the end you want to "send" information from, and "detect" (so this
> weird quantum mechanics story goes) those reads at the other end.
> 
> Read + Not read = 1 bit.
> 
> What seems to be implied in the stories so far is that the information
> must be transmitted through changing states of a single entangled
> photon
> - which assumption makes no sense at all. There's a purported
> phenomena, use it!


	Yep. It either works or not. And if it works you should be able
	to get some 'macroscopic' result/data transmission (of course
	the micro/macro divide is just pseudo-scientific, absurd
	bullshit)

	I don't know if it works or not, though I notice that Cari
	posted a source claiming 

	"Everyone agrees that quantum entanglement does not allow
	information to be transmitted faster that light. " 

	I take that to mean that the authorities don't actually agree,
	although perhaps the majority says : no.

	Regardless, if there is something propagates at faster than
	light speed, then it should be possible to send information
	using that AND there would be nothing absurd about that,
	contrary to Jim B's abssurd defense of absurd, pseudo
	cientific 'interpretations'.

	http://www.dictionary.com/browse/absurd?s=t

	"utterly or obviously senseless, illogical, or untrue"

	It should be self-evident that absurdities have no place in
	science or even in philosophy. 

	

 





> 
> 
> What are we missing here?






From jdb10987 at yahoo.com  Thu Aug  4 16:33:47 2016
From: jdb10987 at yahoo.com (jim bell)
Date: Thu, 4 Aug 2016 23:33:47 +0000 (UTC)
Subject: Quantum entangled-photon Chinese satellite.
In-Reply-To: <57a3c0a1.84bd370a.2e08f.dde4@mx.google.com>
References: <255450741.10726589.1470277325532.JavaMail.yahoo.ref@mail.yahoo.com>
 <255450741.10726589.1470277325532.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com>
 <687871470314039@web15g.yandex.ru>
 <1603947053.11044988.1470329352392.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com>
 <57a3a57f.0703370a.241d8.c3ea@mx.google.com>
 <1359771938.2091832.1470347891966.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com>
 <57a3c0a1.84bd370a.2e08f.dde4@mx.google.com>
Message-ID: <953028539.36755.1470353627925.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com>



 From: juan <juan.g71 at gmail.com>

On Thu, 4 Aug 2016 21:58:11 +0000 (UTC)
jim bell <jdb10987 at yahoo.com> wrote:

>  From: juan <juan.g71 at gmail.com>

> >> Apparently, that is true.   The tantalizing thing is that SOMETHING
> >> APPEARS   (information, of some nature) to be transferred between
> >> one particle and another, distant one, and yet there seems to be
> >> no way to use that transfer to actually transmit useful FTL 
> 
>  >  Which sounds rather absurd no?
> Certainly that sounds absurd!   It IS absurd! 


>   Oh, OK. So I don't need to bother with patently false theories.
>   Because that's what 'absurd' implies. 
No, you obviously don't understand.  Something can be "absurd" and yetquite real.  "Absurd" merely explains how we react to something we do notunderstand.Simple example of thing that appears "absurd":  To somebody in 6th grademath, the question "what is the square root of negative 1" looks absurd.But it isn't absurd to a 12th grader taking calculus.


>> Which explains a lot
>> of the fascinationhas for entangled photons and related phenomena.

>    I don't follow. I don't think absurd ideas are 'fascinating'.
At one point, the idea that Earth is flat was the received wisdom, and anallergation that Earth is round was "absurd".  Einstein's theory ofrelativity was "absurd" to people who grew up on Newtonian theory.  The idea that nuclei in atoms would  decay, emitting hugeamounts of energy, was "absurd" in 1900.  By 1946, nuclear bombshad killed well over 100,000 people.

 >   And at any rate it should be obvious that absurd ideas have no
  >  place in rational discourse, or 'science'.
Until they do.  


>  Einstein never liked the quantum-mechanics idea, famously declaring
> "God does not play dice with theuniverse".    

>   A sensible remark, if you take out the god bullshit. And as I
>    think you know, there are many so called 'interpretations' of
  >  QM and not all of them are absurd (i.e. patently false).
Einstein was wrong, and ultimately other scientists were right.  And theyconfirmed that, with experiments and further theory.


>> Unfortunately for  Einstein, dice are actually played. 
>    So says one faction of the 'scientific' establishment. Just like
>    statists say that the state is legitimate. 

Scientific dispute exists.  It's normal.Curiously, in the 1920's, a Russian scientist named Lysenko believedthat characteristics could be acquired by an organism far more quicklythan genetics would otherwise allow.  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trofim_Lysenko    Soon enough, he was considered a fraud, a joke.  And he was, but eventually the phenomonof methylation of the DNA strand ('epigenetics') was discovered.https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Epigenetics 

In 1978, I visited the Smithsonian Institution for the first (and so far last) time.  Oneof the exhibits was a display of "quack" medical equipment, including gas-dischargetubes that were activated with high-voltage and were said to control pain.  Quackmedical treatment.  By 1996, I was working at a company which designed and built TENSunits (Transcutaneous electrical nerve stimulator) which reduce paid by using small electrical currents.   https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Transcutaneous_electrical_nerve_stimulation   
What did you say, above?    "So says one faction of the 'scientific' establishment."
>  >Either this is ordinary EM
>  > phenomena that propagate at the so called speed of light, or
>  > it is something else which could propagate at 'faster than
>  > light' speed. 

>> It's at least 10,000 times 'c' the speed of light in a vacuum,
>> according toexperiments involving fiber optics.  It might be
>> essentially infinite.

>  It can't be infinite
Why not?  Have you ever heard the term, "phase velocity"?   

>, but it certainly can be faster than
>    light.
Prior to relatively recently, people generally thought nothing could travelfaster than 'c'.  They thought that travel faster than 'c' was "absurd".  
> So somebody actually did the measurements?
Yes.  They determined that the 'speed' of whatever was going on had to be at least10,000 times 'c', but they couldn't determine an upper limit to that value.




> > >  If 'something' is moving at faster than light speed, then some
> > > information must be being transmitted. If no information is
> > >  being transmitted, then by definition, there's no way to measure
> >  >  speed and the claim makes no sense.

>> Well, that's the problem. 
>> Knowing that SOMETHING is being
>> transmitted, and actually USING that method to transmit useful
>> information, are (quite strangely) two different things. 

 >   If you know that 'something' was transmitted, then al least one
 >   bit of information was transmitted, no? 
Like I said, there's a difference between knowing something is happening,and being able to actually employ that for useful purposes.If I see a horse running in the prairie, and yet I cannot capture him, Icannot use him to travel at horse-speed rather than man-speed.
Even in the 1s00s, people knew that light traveled at a finite(non-infinite) velocity.  Hint:  It involved Jupiter's moons.https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Speed_of_light
But until the invention of the Fleming valve (old name for an 'electrontube') and then radio, people didn't know how to transmit information from Europe to America in a few milliseconds. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fleming_valve
Curiously, Thomas Edison really screwed up by not recognizing the value ofthe "Edison Effect" (which he wasn't actually the first to recognize)
 >   Again, either information is being transmitted at FTL speed or
  >  not. So, what is being claimed here?
We simply don't know how to use entangled photons to transmit informationat greater than 'c'.  And there is no guarantee we will ever know how to doso.
And if you believe that something must definitely be one thing, or another, I will have to introduce you to Schrodinger's Cat.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Schr%C3%B6dinger%27s_cat

 ...which has the weird property of being able to be alive and dead at the same time.

                         Jim Bell
  
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From jdb10987 at yahoo.com  Thu Aug  4 16:41:11 2016
From: jdb10987 at yahoo.com (jim bell)
Date: Thu, 4 Aug 2016 23:41:11 +0000 (UTC)
Subject: "Bounty" by Michael Byrnes, Kirkus review
References: <1795635786.4661833.1470354071669.JavaMail.yahoo.ref@mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <1795635786.4661833.1470354071669.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com>

  https://www.kirkusreviews.com/book-reviews/michael-byrnes/bounty/


KIRKUS REVIEW
Vigilantism goes viral in this thriller about a website that pays bounties for the killing of unpunished child abusers, financial scammers, human rights violators, and other bad actors.
These are individuals such as Chase Lombardi, a Bernie Madoff–like investment banker, who days after his acquittal gets shot through the eye by a sniper in the name of "social justice" while gazing out the window of his posh Manhattan office. The price on his head, as he was informed in taunting text and email alerts: $530,000. More than 20 other people have been targeted by bounty4justice.com in the United States, Europe, and Asia. But even the savviest techs can't locate the host servers of the site, especially after it starts dealing in untraceable NcryptoCash. As brutal as the killings are—a bigoted white congressman is torched in his car by his Hispanic limo driver for cancelling insurance benefits, resulting in the death of the driver's asthmatic son—the people behind bounty4justice are hailed as "freedom fighters" à la Edward Snowden. Soon enough, the "proof of death" videos required by the site for payment go viral, a reality show–like fever grips the nation, and ordinary citizens are competing with professional assassins for prize money. Byrnes (The Genesis Plague, 2010, etc.) has a solid, if far-fetched, premise to work with, and he knows his way around secure message boards and such. But he spends so much time cataloging the assorted targets and the workings of the site that he risks wearing the reader out. And the book never delivers the kind of dramatic payoff its "cyber spring" promises.
Charles Bronson's Death Watch meets the Internet, with little of the hand-wringing melodrama that might suggest.
Pub Date: July 26th, 2016
ISBN: 978-0-8041-7834-1
Page count: 432pp
Publisher: Ballantine
Review Posted Online: May 4th, 2016
Kirkus Reviews Issue: May 15th, 2016
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From seanl at literati.org  Thu Aug  4 16:59:55 2016
From: seanl at literati.org (Sean Lynch)
Date: Thu, 04 Aug 2016 23:59:55 +0000
Subject: FM Corporations/ businesses/ entitities
In-Reply-To: <20160803092946.GE2616@x220-a02>
References: <20160730013607.GB17721@x220-a02>
 <04bfae7a-2de4-63e7-3adb-9bd54001d274@pilobilus.net>
 <20160803092946.GE2616@x220-a02>
Message-ID: <CAHKdp-nG6UEVEn8CO0ENoZVm3nh1HGsZ+cKkx-SrbJeE2jr9TA@mail.gmail.com>

On Wed, Aug 3, 2016 at 2:41 AM Zenaan Harkness <zen at freedbms.net> wrote:

> On Wed, Aug 03, 2016 at 12:34:07AM -0400, Steve Kinney wrote:
> > On 07/29/2016 09:36 PM, Zenaan Harkness wrote:
> > > On Fri, Jul 29, 2016 at 09:45:40PM -0300, juan wrote:
> > >> On Fri, 29 Jul 2016 13:43:12 +0300 Georgi Guninski
> > >> <guninski at guninski.com> wrote:
>
> > > THE QUESTION: The question I think always shall be, is how to
> > > transition to an anarchic society, in consideration of existing
> > > interests. I.e. how to peacefully transition existing entities/
> > > structure/ interests into an anarchistic/ truly free market
> > > reality.
> >
> > How can one "peacefully" tear the dominant syndicates ruling an entire
> > civilization to pieces?
>
> By creating better alternatives which appeal to individuals, and grow
> over time into alternative large and dominant syndicates.
>

I haven't yet been able to convince myself that "large and dominant
syndicates" are even necessary. Do we really need large scale coordination
separated into different cliques like that, or is it possible to have a
single large network (in the abstract sense) of distributed transactions?
If transaction costs get close enough to zero, the optimal firm size goes
to one. So the question becomes how much we can reduce transaction costs.


> The great challenge in doing this peacefully is not the existing
> syndicates per se, but the anti-competitive, protectionist rackets
> called "statute laws", which are lobbied for and abused by, these
> existing mega syndicates.
>

This feels right to me. Which is to say I think it's right but don't know
enough to make a good argument for it.


> In the democratic fascist model we see dominant today around the world,
> the mega syndicates lobby 'governments' for special privileges - e.g.:
>  - the right to tax humans driving on public roads (please, if anyone
>    wants to debate this, start a separate thread)
>

I don't know if I understand the point well enough to debate it, but I'm
interested to know what your definition of "public" is. Does such a thing
exist with respect to government? Aren't they really government roads?
Please forgive me if that's the exact kind of discussion you want to go
onto another thread.


>  - the right to compel corporations and owner-operator individual
>    'business persons' to sink inhuman amounts of fiat dollars into
>    licensed superannuation funds
>

Yes. Which will be the trigger for the next financial crisis or the one
after (since I think real estate is still fucked).


>  - the right to use the courts to punish anyone trying to compete with
>    your overpriced, poorly serviced telecomms network (wired or
>    wireless)
>

Or just lobby the government to require the use of your products.


>  - etc etc
>
> And so we see endless protectionist rackets, in every field of human
> endeavour, all around the world, under the pretense of being
> "democratic".
>

Yes.


> Oh, and by the way, when I use the term "right" above, I use it in the
> sense of "predatorial right" (in case it weren't obvious).
>

Obvious to me, perhaps not some others.

> Those who own and administer those syndicates
> > have devoted their lives to the acquisition and retention of power, at
> > the expense of others and in competition against a broad spectrum of
> > rivals and adversaries.  The modern Democratic State exists for the
> > sole purpose of protecting and advancing the interests of dominant
> > economic syndicates and their owners by any means necessary, with
> > deadly force topping the go-to list.
>
> indeed
>

I've been slowly slogging my way through Robert K. Massie's _Dreadnought_,
and it struck me how openly the government of the British Empire considered
themselves primarily protectors of the commercial interests of British
companies. I suspect future historians will think us terribly naive to
think that capitalism and mercantilism are different things. Capitalism,
for the most part, seems to be just mercantilism with less transparency and
the more competition for the government's favor. "Competition" being
competition to see who can give the most political donations to the right
people, etc.


> > A whole art and science of nonviolent strategic conflict addresses
> > methods of applying coercive social and economic measures to modify
> > the behavior of dominant syndicates including their State
> > sponsor/clients.  But an existential threat to these syndicates will
> > ultimately result in their application of deadly force, and a response
> > in kind.
>
> at some levels, or in some cases, yes
>
> BUT, not in all cases!
>
> That is a part of the brainwashing - oh "they" are all so powerful,
> there's nothing "we" can do without being shot.
>
> BOLLOCKS.
>
> (I know that's not exactly what you said - point is, we have to bust our
> programming if we are to have any hope of making collective progress in
> useful directions.)
>

I think most of the time it's not even fear of being shot,  though. It's
fear of losing privileges. Anyone can be blackballed in any industry at any
time. Just associate them with kiddie porn or name them as a "person of
interest" in some investigation.


> > Anarchy is not a proposed form of government or social order;
>
> I disagree..
>
> > it is an
> > informed critique of governments and social orders.
>
> ..political anarchy is much more than a critique - it suggests
> principles for principled ways for us to interact with one another,
> regardless of domain of activity.
>

I think it's both, really. You qualify it with "political" here, and I
think that's right. Unfortunately it's a pretty "charged" term, though, so
it will only convey your meaning in particular circles.


> > Or it is a
> > delusional belief system indoctrinated by propaganda.  Or it is
> > violent opposition to social order of any kind.  Depends who you ask.
>
> Sure. But not one of the definitions you've suggested is particularly
> useful - add to that list "direct democracy" - perhaps not the best
> definition, but one I saw once and got an "ahah" moment.
>

I haven't yet been able to figure out how much of a collectivist or
individualist you are, but "democracy" strikes me as a fairly collectivist
term. It's rule by the people over all the other people. I prefer rule of
oneself by oneself. To the extent possible, at least.

Perhaps "opt-in direct democracy" would be a better way to define
> "political anarchy" so that lay-persons can grok the concept, rather
> than get caught up in the common meaning of 'anarchy == chaos'.
>

I'm a fan of "polycentric order" or "polycentric law" myself. Though that
may assume certain factors that you don't think are warranted.

>
> > If you want an anarchistic society, you will need to keep units of
> > sovereign governance small enough that everyone can observe and play
> > an active role in their governance.
>
> And those units, however they each choose to operate, may syndicate as
> a syndicate of units.
>
> And those syndications of units may syndicate ...
>

How about families or even just individuals?

...


> > In short, you need to model your State as Bands, Tribes and Nations
> > governed by open Councils acting on consensus only.
>
> Watch my lips carefully, as I'm only going to do this once:
>
>
>    I
>
>    don't
>
>    need
>
>    to model or otherwise do
>
>    shit
>
>    !
>
>
> Got it?
>
> It's a simple concept. In fact, it is foundational to political anarchy
> theory, from my very limited understanding.
>

The temptation to design is a very hard one to avoid. It took me a long
time to break myself of it. In fact, it was an individualist anarchist who
finally broke me of the habit.


> > And you need to
> > site it on a world where no other kind of State exists or can arise,
> > because hierarchal governance in a caste system includes efficiencies
> > that will enable other States to take yours over shortly after they
> > see advantages in doing so.  At best your Anarchistic State may
> > survive by imitating the organizational methods of antagonistic States
> > - - but then, you will no longer have an Anarchistic State.
>

Despite probably being the "wrong" kind of anarchist according to many
here, Hans-Hermann Hoppe does a pretty good job of obliterating the notion
that voluntary societies cannot defend themselves from traditional
nation-states in _The Myth of National Defense_.

In any case, though, Zen (and I) expect such a society to evolve alongside
and among traditional nation-states, so it has to be able to protect itself
or it could not exist in the first place. So there's no need to "site" the
society anywhere.

If we do get access to our own planet, though, it might help things along a
bit. Of course, then you run into the problem that all
intentional/constructed communities run into, which is that they have an
extremely low probability of success. This is one of the reasons I've
mostly gotten over the idea of seasteading as the answer to our problems.
Of course, while an *individual* seastead might have very low probability
of success, tens of thousands might produce a couple of interesting ideas.
 ...

> > The problem with "revolution" is semantic:  We are taught that a
> > revolution is an armed conflict that replaces one gang of rulers with
> > another gang of rulers, who may or may not bring plans for a new
> > social and economic structure with them.
>
> It is much more than semantic - history shows us many examples of
> "bloody revolution", with vast millions of humans ending up dead in the
> process of "transition".
>

And a "transition" or "emergency" government that's really just a
dictatorship and lasts a very long time.

> My favorite definition of "revolution" equates it to "the world turned
> > upside down."
>

And often this is "literally" true - the old servants become the masters
and the masters become worm food. And then the old servants are just as
brutal of masters, if not moreso, than their old masters. Especially if the
new masters really did comes from the lowest echelons of society where they
have no experience at all with leadership. At least internal coups don't
tend to have this problem quite so badly. But they also don't tend to
change much.


> > We are taught that revolutions initiate radical changes in social and
> > economic systems, but I maintain that revolutions are the end result
> > of radical changes in social and economic behavior.  We are taught
> > that Great Leaders with Great Ideas change the world, but I maintain
> > that changes in technology, population and environmental conditions
> > change the world:  Those Great Leaders with their Great Ideas show up
> > /after/ irreversible changes in social and economic life have already
> > taken place.  They represent new dominant syndicates, seeking to
> > displace institutions of governance created by and for the exclusive
> > benefit of earlier dominant syndicates.  Their role is to modify the
> > institutions of State power to codify, control and exploit the new
> > order, for the sole benefit of the new dominant syndicates.
> >
> > According to this model, the "shooting war" phase of a real revolution
> > serves the sole purpose of removing dead-end resistance to rule by new
> > dominant syndicates that have already eclipsed the power of previously
> > dominant syndicates.
>


> A new syndicate does not start out "dominant". I guess you mean "new,
> soon to be dominant syndicate".
>
> And that's why the banks (the oligarchs) have funded all sides of every
> war in history - very profitable business, war.
>
> So before going to war, ask yourself if you are selling your soul to the
> existing syndicates...
>

Personally, I don't plan to go to war at all, ever, if I can avoid it. And
by "avoiding" I mean "can physically escape with my loved ones," not "I've
tried everything else to effect change and now must take up arms." I care
enough about my home to kill an individual or small band who try to invade
it, and even to band together with my neighborhood to do so, but not to go
to war. I'm not sure I could tell you what the crossover would be in terms
of level of organization, but I'd guess it's at the level where we need to
resort to any kind of abstraction.


> > > We must always remember it is never the arm chair pundit ("oh I
> > > wish our democracy elected representatives actually represented
> > > us") crowd who will change the world.
> > >
> > > So historically, revolutions seem to be more a devolution than an
> > > evolution of the status quo. If you have counter examples, please
> > > highlight them now.
> >
> > The French and American Revolutions removed the institutions of
> > Monarchy to make way for a New World Order where insurgent Mercantile
> > and Industrialist factions share power with the older "landed"
> > Aristocracy.  That New World Order developed under Monarchy; its
> > revolutions only restructured political power to reflect a new
> > arrangement of economic powers already in place, and establish the new
> > dominant syndicates as its "legitimate" rulers.
>
>
> I am consistently reacting to what I am hearing from you as a fatalism,
> that "new syndicates" are already dominant before they even topple the
> existing syndicate, does not make sense.
>

They are not on the bottom, though. They are the bourgeoisie. They
typically form alliances with those on the bottom by promising to make
their situation better, though never better than their own. Go with us to
war and we'll share the spoils (unequally) with you.


> And I don't think in history it has generally been black and white (new
> vs old syndicate) either - the banks (old syndicates) funding both sides
> is the kind of 'armed revolution' we usually see in history...
>
> My reaction is because you seem to deny (by assumption in the words you
> choose) these possibilities, for just some examples:
>  - a new syndicate can start small, probably --should-- start small!
>  - a new syndicate can be organically built.
>  - a new syndicate might be just two women starting a computer repair
>    "shop"
>  - a new small syndicate, if it genuinely represents an improvement over
>    the status quo (Uber), ought naturally grow into a large syndicate
>

Historically, it's been very hard for small syndicates to grow into large
ones without winning favor from the existing players. Today we have Ubers
that can grow without having a revolution. It used to be much harder.


> > > So it is that I hold far greater hope for a better/ anarchistic/
> > > direct democracy type of future, via the pathway of evolution, and
> > > not revolution.
> >
> > No evolution, no revolution.  Unless by "revolution" one means
> > overthrowing the State to replace it with a new State administering
> > the same social and economic systems the old State evolved to control
> > and exploit.  In this case, revolutionaries are those who seek power
> > for its own sake through violent means; that is not likely to end well.
> >
> > > And so it is also that we owe it to our future generations to
> > > consider pathways to peaceful transition of existing interests,
> > > into that better future.
> >
> > The real future includes the collapse of industrial economies,
> > accelerated looting of under-defended territories, and a major human
> > population crash.  This is the picture presented by current and
> > historical geophysical data.  Any plan or strategy that does not work
> > in this context does not work.
>
> Catering for likely contingencies is sensible.


I don't consider this a likely contingency. The trend has been toward LESS
violence, and there is no particular reason to believe that there's a
simple inverse relationship between income and fertility rate. Doesn't mean
I am not hedging against such a possibility, but I'm certainly not betting
on it, just making it more likely my family and I could survive it if it
happens.


> I'm pretty sure the USD is gonna go down hard, and then the existing
> oligarchs will go into looting overdrive - those who've positioned
> themselves to be able to, of course.
> Such is the sad state of human affairs we usually see.
>

The economies of developed countries are too intertwined for USD to "go
down hard" without taking a lot of other economies with it. What do you
think will happen to the Chinese economy if, for example, the US suddenly
stops buying their products? They'd have a bunch of saved dollars to spend,
and the best way to spend them would be on American goods. More likely it
would be gradual and we'd see a shift in the US back toward manufacturing.

The US government actually *wants* the dollar to decline in value. It makes
US products more competitive both domestically and abroad. It causes
inflation and thus reduces real incomes and debt. It would put a bunch of
people back to work. Sure, skyrocketing oil prices would hurt the US
economy, but look how much US investment there is in electric cars, solar,
etc. And nobody in the US is going to be buying Chinese solar panels when
they're no longer cheap. They'll be buying American ones.


> > Absent a paradigm shift that replaces "progress" with "disaster
> > mitigation, management and recovery," application of political theory
> > and practice can only produce worse outcomes, not better ones.
>
> It is all very well to start at the end goal, but not at a fatalistic
> "guaranteed" bad outcome - if that's all you envision, either get
> another vision, or start at the other end of the scale (how we can
> usefully form small syndicates, from 2 humans upwards, to work towards a
> possible better future).
>
> I will -not- accept your fatalism and your presumed horrific outcomes.
>

Yeah, I don't see history as a series of disasters either. Just paradigm
shifts. But I guess I'm fundamentally a "progressive" and not a
neoreactionary. But then again, I don't see how anyone who understands
evolution can think it can't apply to human knowledge & culture as much as
it does to genomes. Unless they're predisposed to believing there's nothing
they can do anyway, because they would otherwise feel back about NOT doing
anything. Most of us do seek meaning, after all, and it can be hard to
accept that your life thus far has had none. Or maybe I'm just more
sanguine about it because I have my backup strategy: kids. And I want to
believe they're not destined to live in a world that's shittier than the
one I grew up in.


> I will -not- accept that there are no pathways to productively and
> usefully evolve towards political anarchy in broad action.
>
>
> > My proposed solution is radical decentralization of industry and
> > agriculture; adaptation of "low technology" not dependent on
> > centralized heavy industry to replace "high technology" where and as
> > it has real survival value; moving as many people as far away from
> > population centers as possible; and distributing field tested
> > strategies and technologies for the above as widely as possible while
> > the networks and economies to do so are still up and running.
>
> Sounds great.
>
> Sounds grand.
>
> Sounds like there are possibilities for action by individuals and small
> syndicates that could arise from this viewpoint. I think this could be
> useful.
>

I'm not opposed to "radical decentralization of industry and agriculture,"
provided there is not a significant reduction in productivity, which with
improvements in technology there doesn't have to be, especially when you
account for the increase in resilience & the reduction in the (presently
hidden/subsidized) cost of transporting food/goods over long distances.

I suspect this is the direction technology is already leading us, though.
Take steel mills as an example: they reached peak scale in the 1950s or so
and then got outcompeted by smaller, more flexible mini-mills with smaller
machines with less up-front investment. Farming equipment is getting
smaller and smaller, and I suspect a lot of the current scale of farming is
a result of artificial barriers to competition, *not* the technology or
genuine economies of scale. Get rid of those barriers, and the scale will
naturally fall as smaller, more flexible firms and individuals jump into
the market.

> Large scale industrial processes that systematically destroy the
> > essential survival resources of future generations have to be halted
> > as soon as possible.  Hydraulic fracturing to harvest petrochemicals
> > permanently destroys water tables.  It is now decades too late to
> > "stop" global warming, but not too late to limit the rate of onset,
> > severity, and duration of large scale climactic disruptions on the way
> > to a "new normal."  Genetically engineered 'food' crops destroy
> > topsoil ecologies, poison water supplies and threaten the genetic
> > integrity of plant species necessary to large scale human survival.
> > The longer these and other grossly destructive industrial activities
> > continue, the lower the resulting long term carrying capacity for
> > human population in affected regions.
>
> Sure, ACK. "We" the human race, need to, must do better.
>

I think the only thing I'd add here is that it's important not to lump all
genetic modifications together. While some of them may be "gratuitous" and
dangerous, others may turn out to be vital, like salt tolerant crops, more
nutritious grain varieties, etc. I suspect patent reform would go a long
way toward reducing the problems with genetic modification.


> > Preparation for and mitigation of the "end of the world as we know it"
> > provides more than a lifetime of challenging, satisfying, useful work.
>
> :)
>

> >  Any real progress in these areas will produce a better future,
> > sooner, for more people.
> >
> > Ready?  Go!
> >
> > :o)
>

I would submit that progress toward a more voluntary society would ALSO
produce greater resiliency. How do you propose to convince a large fraction
of the population to move away from cities, farm, and make their own stuff?
How do you propose to get them to stop using computers, or to decentralize
the manufacture of computers? I'm not saying this is not doable. In fact, I
think it IS doable, but it's going to take the development of new
technologies. I'd love a chip fab that I could own as an individual or in a
partnership with a few friends. I'd love a robot gardener that could turn
my back yard into a farm without my needing to spend a significant fraction
of my time doing it (which is also known as "subsistence.")

And without a global market for food, how do you propose we deal with local
disasters? Shall we force societies to rely on charity in cases where under
the present system they would have just increased their imports slightly?
"Eat local" doesn't work when there's a "local" drought.
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From nonomos at mail.com  Thu Aug  4 17:37:09 2016
From: nonomos at mail.com (No)
Date: Fri, 5 Aug 2016 02:37:09 +0200
Subject: Anarchist Bibliography, please? (was Re: Deconstructing an
 Institutional Slander...)
In-Reply-To: <33853580.4670357.1470346666605.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com>
References: <CAG2tMp6-KfNr0VgiddoLxHcHw6CzyU=uLJCdCsvo9EsBE8gTeQ@mail.gmail.com>
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 <CAG2tMp7M3BpOUOcv6fkOYK=cYvYCWmg3nFrL8QSGBF0JPr5pjg@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAG2tMp5A5AxiYHR4JQ-ECFCy80nsa8-xxYw5gs5vMEfHtHKRgg@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAG2tMp4HdMnuXO7K5OvAie1+f1bsU5_iDg-nEcy=PTvJfV+XFA@mail.gmail.com>
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 <8f115fae-5655-ca28-0250-dab17c397cbe@pilobilus.net>
 <33853580.4670357.1470346666605.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <830025cc-6289-baee-b864-1de7858cf046@mail.com>

Stirner has opened my eyes on quite a few levels, you could categorize
his book under individualistic anarchism (though categories seem
irrelevant).

https://theanarchistlibrary.org/library/max-stirner-the-ego-and-his-own

This text has helped me and some others, trying to not drift off in
endless cynicism and nihilism:

https://theanarchistlibrary.org/library/peter-lamborn-wilson-the-new-nihilism

On 08/04/2016 11:37 PM, jim bell wrote:
>
>
> *From:* Steve Kinney <admin at pilobilus.net>
>
> On 08/04/2016 03:00 AM, Cecilia Tanaka wrote:
> >> I asked Steve some suggestions in private, but it's better to ask
> >> publicly, so more people can profit the clues.  Oh, you know, he
> >> loves books, uses cute emoticons and makes oink oink.  He's a good
> >> reference for me, hahaha!!  ;)
>
> >When dredging the Internet for information, I am sure you won't have
> >much trouble picking out the State sponsored anarchist literature and
> >pseudo-radical propaganda fronts: 
>
>
> I hope people will forgive me for tooting my own horn.  I was a
> minarchist Libertarian in 1994,
> not an anarchist Libertarian.  But it wasn't because I somehow wanted
> to keep around some
> minimal government.  Rather, it was because I couldn't figure out a
> logically-consistent method'
> to entirely get rid of those last vestiges of government.  Lacking
> such an plausible method,
> I chose the intellectually-honest route of accepting (at the time)
> that some residual government
> would be necessary.
>
> While not specifically aware of David Friedman's (son of famous
> economist Milton Friedman)
> "Hard Problem"
>  http://econlog.econlib.org/archives/2009/04/will_david_frie.html   ,
> from his 
> book, "The Machinery of Freedom" (1973; revised in 1989; again 2014),
>  I was effectively
> aware of the  same barrier, and like Friedman, I could not see any
> solution.  Anarchy, I 
> concluded, was impractical, and unachievable. 
>
> It's a good thing that I wasn't aware of Friedman's "Hard Problem", or
> the idea it was "hard".
> In January 1995 I because to contemplate the idea that turned into my
> "Assassination
> Politics" essay.   https://cryptome.org/ap.htm  
>
>   I wasn't intending to solve that problem:  Rather, I was trying to
> figure out how
> an otherwise-powerless public could defend itself from bad acts,
> mostly from government
> employees.  I realized that to combine the contributions of anonymous
> individuals,  allows
> that public can deter and prevent those bad acts.  I further realized
> that this system would
> be extremely economical, allowing (for instance) the region known as
> "America" to defend
> itself, not merely from external threats, but also internal crime,
> probably for a total cost of 
> under $1 billion per year, far less than the $600 billion in defense
> spending currently done.
>
> A simplistic, initial analysis (which I initially assumed, even before
> I wrote the first part of the
> AP essay) was that AP would simply fix government.  But the ultimate
> "fix" was actually far
> more powerful than I'd initially realized, not merely fixing
> governments, but destroying all
> governments, and thus protecting an anarchist or minarchist region
> from threatening 
> neighbors.
>
> Put simply, I solved David Friedman's "Hard Problem".  I haven't yet
> seen the 2014 revision
> of his book, Machinery of Freedom, to see if he has acknowledged this
> yet.    I think it would
> be extraordinarily strange if he doesn't do so:  After all, ostensibly
> we are on the same side
> of this matter.  He advocates a zero-government solution:  Why
> wouldn't he cite a proof
> that a zero-government solution is actually possible, contrary to his
> apparent previous
> opinion?
>
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Machinery_of_Freedom 
>
> But in effect, I think I was quite correct, pre-1995, for me  to
> believe that anarchy was
>  impractical.   I don't know how people who labelled themselves as
> 'anarchists'  resolved
> the apparent contradiction.  Were they aware that anarchy wasn't
> stable?  (At least not
> absent my 1995 invention, AP).   Most likely I think they were simply
> unaware that anarchy
> wasn't going to be stable.  Or, perhaps they assumed that then-future
> events would somehow
> solve the problem.  As, ultimately, they did, but it didn't have to be
> that way.  I, virtually by
> accident, solved that problem.  But things could have been very different.
>
>                 Jim Bell
>
>
>

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From carimachet at gmail.com  Thu Aug  4 16:53:54 2016
From: carimachet at gmail.com (Cari Machet)
Date: Fri, 5 Aug 2016 02:53:54 +0300
Subject: Quantum entangled-photon Chinese satellite.
In-Reply-To: <39F9132D-2889-4688-9A50-1ECC3B26511A@riseup.net>
References: <255450741.10726589.1470277325532.JavaMail.yahoo.ref@mail.yahoo.com>
 <255450741.10726589.1470277325532.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com>
 <687871470314039@web15g.yandex.ru>
 <1603947053.11044988.1470329352392.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com>
 <57a3a57f.0703370a.241d8.c3ea@mx.google.com>
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 <39F9132D-2889-4688-9A50-1ECC3B26511A@riseup.net>
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fish see surface

but yes our perception but also the n dimension

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZuvK-od647c

Quantum Entanglement & Spooky Action at a Distance

Published on Jan 12, 2015

Does quantum entanglement make faster-than-light communication possible?
What is NOT random? http://bit.ly/NOTrandoVe
First, I know this video is not easy to understand. Thank you for taking
the time to attempt to understand it. I've been working on this for over
six months over which time my understanding has improved. Quantum
entanglement and spooky action at a distance are still debated by
professors of quantum physics (I know because I discussed this topic with
two of them).

Does hidden information (called hidden variables by physicists) exist? If
it does, the experiment violating Bell inequalities indicates that hidden
variables must update faster than light - they would be considered
'non-local'. On the other hand if you don't consider the spins before you
make the measurement then you could simply say hidden variables don't exist
and whenever you measure spins in the same direction you always get
opposite results, which makes sense since angular momentum must be
conserved in the universe.

Everyone agrees that quantum entanglement does not allow information to be
transmitted faster that light. There is no action either detector operator
could take to signal the other one - regardless of the choice of
measurement direction, the measured spins are random with 50/50 probability
of up/down.

Special thanks to:
Prof. Stephen Bartlett, University of Sydney: http://bit.ly/1xSosoJ
Prof. John Preskill, Caltech: http://bit.ly/1y8mJut

Looking Glass Universe: http://bit.ly/17zZH7l
Physics Girl: http://bit.ly/PhysGirl
MinutePhysics: http://bit.ly/MinPhys
Community Channel: http://bit.ly/CommChannel
Nigel, Helen, Luke, and Simon for comments on earlier drafts of this video.

Filmed in part by Scott Lewis: http://google.com/+scottlewis

Music by Amarante "One Last Time": http://bit.ly/VeAmarante



++++++++++++++++


n dimension stuff


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uI9uuHuc1iU&list=PL865E510770E164CB




On Fri, Aug 5, 2016 at 1:27 AM, Sci Fith <scfith at riseup.net> wrote:

> I believe our understanding of info transfer needs to change. The data is
> not traveling anywhere because it appears to exist simultaneously here &
> there and when one changes the other does without delay. There has to be
> another dimension of energy / ether we need to discover that would make
> this make sense. Like looking into a fish pond but the fish don't see
> surface, only your hand dipping in water as a miraculous occurrence.
>
> jamescampbell.us
> 7032039877
>
> On Aug 4, 2016, at 5:58 PM, jim bell <jdb10987 at yahoo.com> wrote:
>
>
>
> *From:* juan <juan.g71 at gmail.com>
> On Thu, 4 Aug 2016 16:49:12 +0000 (UTC)
> jim bell <jdb10987 at yahoo.com> wrote:
>
> >> Apparently, that is true.   The tantalizing thing is that SOMETHING
> >> APPEARS   (information, of some nature) to be transferred between one
> >> particle and another, distant one, and yet there seems to be no way
> >> to use that transfer to actually transmit useful FTL
>
>  >  Which sounds rather absurd no?
>
> Certainly that sounds absurd!   It IS absurd!  Which explains a lot of the
> fascination
> has for entangled photons and related phenomena.  Einstein never liked the
> quantum-mechanics idea, famously declaring "God does not play dice with the
> universe".     Unfortunately for Einstein, dice are actually played.
>
> In fact, Einstein's EPR Paradox (Einstein, Podolski, Rosen) was invented by
> Einstein himself in an attempt to prove that quantum mechanics could not
> be a complete statement of the problem. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/
> EPR_paradox
>
> This principle said that IF quantum mechanics
> were a complete statement of the problem, then something seemingly
> impossible [fill in the blank with FTL information travel] would occur.
> Einstein was
> quite convinced that nothing (including no information) could travel
> faster than
> 'c'.  Amazingly, it appears that nature ("God", for the religious among
> you) has acted
> simultaneously to protect the quantum mechanics theory, but ALSO to
> protect
> Einstein's belief that nothing could travel faster than 'c'.   If anybody
> should discover
> a method to use entangled photons to effectively transmit data FTL (and
> thus,
> presumably at infinite speed) that person would surely deserve a Nobel
> Prize in
> Physics.
>
>
>  >Either this is ordinary EM
>  > phenomena that propagate at the so called speed of light, or
>  > it is something else which could propagate at 'faster than
>  > light' speed.
>
> It's at least 10,000 times 'c' the speed of light in a vacuum, according to
> experiments involving fiber optics.  It might be essentially infinite.
>
>   >  If 'something' is moving at faster than light speed, then some
>   > information must be being transmitted. If no information is
> >    being transmitted, then by definition, there's no way to measure
>   >  speed and the claim makes no sense.
>
> Well, that's the problem.  Knowing that SOMETHING is being transmitted,
> and actually
> USING that method to transmit useful information, are (quite strangely)
> two different
> things.  That, also is the amazing implications of entangled photons.
>
>                Jim Bell
>
>


-- 
Cari Machet
NYC 646-436-7795
carimachet at gmail.com
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From juan.g71 at gmail.com  Thu Aug  4 22:58:15 2016
From: juan.g71 at gmail.com (juan)
Date: Fri, 5 Aug 2016 02:58:15 -0300
Subject: Quantum entangled-photon Chinese satellite.
In-Reply-To: <61801470374359@web4g.yandex.ru>
References: <255450741.10726589.1470277325532.JavaMail.yahoo.ref@mail.yahoo.com>
 <255450741.10726589.1470277325532.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com>
 <687871470314039@web15g.yandex.ru>
 <1603947053.11044988.1470329352392.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com>
 <57a3a57f.0703370a.241d8.c3ea@mx.google.com>
 <1359771938.2091832.1470347891966.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com>
 <20160805012907.GL2570@x220-a02>
 <57a3f1d9.012fed0a.814f7.fd06@mx.google.com>
 <61801470374359@web4g.yandex.ru>
Message-ID: <57a42a01.1724c80a.9ff72.1a86@mx.google.com>

On Fri, 05 Aug 2016 07:19:19 +0200
Bastiani Fortress <bastianifortress at yandex.com> wrote:

> As i can remember, the point was when two particles are entangled,
> they bear the same quantum state, and they simultaneously shift their
> states önce either of them is "observed". 

	OK.

> So you know that the other
> twin is in the same state, but you cannot code it at will, 

	Not sure what you mean by "code it".


> and since
> you don't know its first state without having "observed" it, you
> cannot determine whether the other twin has been observed or not

	And now I'm even more confused =P

	But let's go back to your first sentence. You have a couple of
	'entangled' particles. Trying to measure particle 'A' triggers
	a change in particle 'B' - is that what you are saying? 

	If that's the case, then you do have 'information transfer' -
	one bit. 


> (that would be 1 bit of data streaming).
> 
> This is what i remember from what i read years ago, please correct me
> if i'm wrong.
> 
>





From juan.g71 at gmail.com  Thu Aug  4 23:27:08 2016
From: juan.g71 at gmail.com (juan)
Date: Fri, 5 Aug 2016 03:27:08 -0300
Subject: Quantum entangled-photon Chinese satellite.
In-Reply-To: <B623340B-EFB9-4DE5-B092-9DC6683C2F9F@openmailbox.org>
References: <255450741.10726589.1470277325532.JavaMail.yahoo.ref@mail.yahoo.com>
 <255450741.10726589.1470277325532.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com>
 <687871470314039@web15g.yandex.ru>
 <1603947053.11044988.1470329352392.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com>
 <57a3a57f.0703370a.241d8.c3ea@mx.google.com>
 <1359771938.2091832.1470347891966.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com>
 <20160805012907.GL2570@x220-a02>
 <57a3f1d9.012fed0a.814f7.fd06@mx.google.com>
 <61801470374359@web4g.yandex.ru>
 <57a42a01.1724c80a.9ff72.1a86@mx.google.com>
 <B623340B-EFB9-4DE5-B092-9DC6683C2F9F@openmailbox.org>
Message-ID: <57a430c4.850a370a.5dc0d.251a@mx.google.com>

On Fri, 05 Aug 2016 07:11:11 +0100
oshwm <oshwm at openmailbox.org> wrote:

> would the case for no data travel require that both particles exist
> in the same space and time?
> also, if measuring a quantum object
> changes it, can you not measure twice or similar using the
> measurements to both derive its original state and return it to its
> original state?


	Going by BF's description, states don't really matter. All that
	matters is that you can do something to one of the particles
	and that action triggers a change in the other particle, a
	change that you can detect. If you can do something 'at will' to
	one particle, and then detect a change in the other particle,
	you have transmitted one bit.


> 
> (yep, now the schoolboy physicists are getting involved :D )


	Ever heard stories about naked rulers, or emperors without
	clothes?




> 
> 
> On 5 August 2016 06:58:15 BST, juan <juan.g71 at gmail.com> wrote:
> >On Fri, 05 Aug 2016 07:19:19 +0200
> >Bastiani Fortress <bastianifortress at yandex.com> wrote:
> >
> >> As i can remember, the point was when two particles are entangled,
> >> they bear the same quantum state, and they simultaneously shift
> >> their states önce either of them is "observed". 
> >
> >	OK.
> >
> >> So you know that the other
> >> twin is in the same state, but you cannot code it at will, 
> >
> >	Not sure what you mean by "code it".
> >
> >
> >> and since
> >> you don't know its first state without having "observed" it, you
> >> cannot determine whether the other twin has been observed or not
> >
> >	And now I'm even more confused =P
> >
> >	But let's go back to your first sentence. You have a couple
> >	of 'entangled' particles. Trying to measure particle 'A'
> >	triggers a change in particle 'B' - is that what you are
> >	saying? 
> >
> >	If that's the case, then you do have 'information transfer' -
> >	one bit. 
> >
> >
> >> (that would be 1 bit of data streaming).
> >> 
> >> This is what i remember from what i read years ago, please correct
> >> me if i'm wrong.
> >> 
> >>






From juan.g71 at gmail.com  Thu Aug  4 23:57:30 2016
From: juan.g71 at gmail.com (juan)
Date: Fri, 5 Aug 2016 03:57:30 -0300
Subject: Quantum entangled-photon Chinese satellite.
In-Reply-To: <953028539.36755.1470353627925.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com>
References: <255450741.10726589.1470277325532.JavaMail.yahoo.ref@mail.yahoo.com>
 <255450741.10726589.1470277325532.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com>
 <687871470314039@web15g.yandex.ru>
 <1603947053.11044988.1470329352392.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com>
 <57a3a57f.0703370a.241d8.c3ea@mx.google.com>
 <1359771938.2091832.1470347891966.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com>
 <57a3c0a1.84bd370a.2e08f.dde4@mx.google.com>
 <953028539.36755.1470353627925.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <57a437e1.962cc80a.cf443.2183@mx.google.com>

On Thu, 4 Aug 2016 23:33:47 +0000 (UTC)
jim bell <jdb10987 at yahoo.com> wrote:

> 
> 
>  From: juan <juan.g71 at gmail.com>
> 
> On Thu, 4 Aug 2016 21:58:11 +0000 (UTC)
> jim bell <jdb10987 at yahoo.com> wrote:
> 
> >  From: juan <juan.g71 at gmail.com>
> 
> > >> Apparently, that is true.   The tantalizing thing is that
> > >> SOMETHING APPEARS   (information, of some nature) to be
> > >> transferred between one particle and another, distant one, and
> > >> yet there seems to be no way to use that transfer to actually
> > >> transmit useful FTL 
> > 
> >  >  Which sounds rather absurd no?
> > Certainly that sounds absurd!   It IS absurd! 
> 
> 
> >   Oh, OK. So I don't need to bother with patently false theories.
> >   Because that's what 'absurd' implies. 

> No, you obviously don't understand. 

	Well, I would reply "right back at you" =)


> Something can be "absurd" and
> yet quite real.  

	Sorry, what you just said is absurd =) 

	http://www.dictionary.com/browse/absurd?s=t
	"utterly or obviously senseless, illogical, or untrue" 

	

	
> "Absurd" merely explains how we react to something we
> do not understand. 

	Now, joking aside, I don't think you get to redefine words at
	will. That is not the meaning of 'absurd'. See above.


> Simple example of thing that appears "absurd":  To
> somebody in 6th grademath, the question "what is the square root of
> negative 1" looks absurd. 

	The question is valid and not absurd. And the answer is,
	there's no square root for -1.

> But it isn't absurd to a 12th grader taking
> calculus.
> 
	
	So if you then make up a different number system(two
	dimensional), you can define some 'numbers'(actually points in a
	plane) to be the 'square root' of 'negative' numbers, but it's a
	matter of convention. Still, there are no absurdities in sight. 


> 
> >> Unfortunately for  Einstein, dice are actually played. 

> >    So says one faction of the 'scientific' establishment. Just like
> >    statists say that the state is legitimate. 
> 
> Scientific dispute exists.  It's normal. 

	Fine. So your assertion that 'dice are actually played' is just
	an unproven assertion. The party line of the statistical
	mechanics establishment.


> What did you say, above?    "So says one faction of the 'scientific'
> establishment."

	Yes, exactly. It cuts both ways.

 
> >  It can't be infinite

> Why not?  Have you ever heard the term, "phase velocity"?   
> 

	Yes, but I don't know what it refers to, exactly. However, I do
	know that mathematical abstractions and physical reality are
	different things despite the fact that maths is used to
	partially describe aspects of reality. 

	Anyway, let's say it can be infinite. 


 

> Like I said, there's a difference between knowing something is
> happening,and being able to actually employ that for useful
> purposes. 

	That may be true in general, but I don't think it's valid here.
	What I'm getting at is, whether *in principle* information can
	be transmitted. 

	The either is a working setup that can at least transmit 1 bit,
	or not. It doesn't matter if at the moment you can't stream HD
	video...


> If I see a horse running in the prairie, and yet I cannot
> capture him, Icannot use him to travel at horse-speed rather than
> man-speed. Even in the 1s00s, people knew that light traveled at a
> finite(non-infinite) velocity.  Hint:  It involved Jupiter's
> moons 

	Thanks for the hint. I already knew the story of the danish
	astronomer. Clever guy.



> We simply don't know how to use
> entangled photons to transmit informationat greater than 'c'. 

	How do you know it is at all possible? The only way for you to
	know that is if at least 


> And
> there is no guarantee we will ever know how to doso. And if you
> believe that something must definitely be one thing, or another, I
> will have to introduce you to Schrodinger's Cat.
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Schr%C3%B6dinger%27s_cat
> 
>  ...which has the weird property of being able to be alive and dead
> at the same time.

	
	I'm pretty sure schroedinger's cat happens to be a **reductio
	ad absurdum** though I admit I never looked into the original
	soource 

	 Schrödinger, Erwin (November 1935). "Die gegenwärtige
	 Situation in der Quantenmechanik" 

	Does any body have a copy? 

	At any rate : 

	https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reductio_ad_absurdum

	if you assume bullshit at 'microscopic' level then you end up
	with bullshit at 'macroscopic' level.  If you start with a
	certain premise and you end up with an ABSURD conclusion then
	you know the premise is false. Basic logic. 		

	There are no dead-and-live cats, and so it follows there's no
	'magical' bullshit at microscopic level either. 



J.





From juan.g71 at gmail.com  Fri Aug  5 00:01:29 2016
From: juan.g71 at gmail.com (juan)
Date: Fri, 5 Aug 2016 04:01:29 -0300
Subject: Quantum entangled-photon Chinese satellite.
In-Reply-To: <20160805062048.GB1038@sivokote.iziade.m$>
References: <255450741.10726589.1470277325532.JavaMail.yahoo.ref@mail.yahoo.com>
 <255450741.10726589.1470277325532.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com>
 <20160805062048.GB1038@sivokote.iziade.m$>
Message-ID: <57a438cf.c124c80a.dacce.24be@mx.google.com>

On Fri, 5 Aug 2016 09:20:48 +0300
Georgi Guninski <guninski at guninski.com> wrote:

> On Thu, Aug 04, 2016 at 02:22:05AM +0000, jim bell wrote:
> > http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sciencetech/article-3720772/China-launch-unbreakable-quantum-spy-satellite-say-one-day-lead-megascope-size-Earth-spot-license-plate-Jupiter-s-moons.html
> 
> Bugs me with what energy the particles communicate.
> AFAICT every communication needs some energy.
> Two small photons far away communicate.
> Where the energy comes from? Even just to keep them in a relation so
> they can communicate?


	Good question. You might get a bunch of absurd and
	mystical answers from the 'scientfic' 'community'.



> 
> Will they communicate if they are on the opposite sides of Earth (or
> Sun)?
> 
> In this question I don't care about the speed.





From juan.g71 at gmail.com  Fri Aug  5 00:50:37 2016
From: juan.g71 at gmail.com (juan)
Date: Fri, 5 Aug 2016 04:50:37 -0300
Subject: Quantum entangled-photon Chinese satellite.
In-Reply-To: <953028539.36755.1470353627925.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com>
References: <255450741.10726589.1470277325532.JavaMail.yahoo.ref@mail.yahoo.com>
 <255450741.10726589.1470277325532.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com>
 <687871470314039@web15g.yandex.ru>
 <1603947053.11044988.1470329352392.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com>
 <57a3a57f.0703370a.241d8.c3ea@mx.google.com>
 <1359771938.2091832.1470347891966.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com>
 <57a3c0a1.84bd370a.2e08f.dde4@mx.google.com>
 <953028539.36755.1470353627925.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <57a44457.4c64370a.22ed0.1e04@mx.google.com>

On Thu, 4 Aug 2016 23:33:47 +0000 (UTC)
jim bell <jdb10987 at yahoo.com> wrote:


> If I see a horse running in the prairie, and yet I cannot
> capture him, Icannot use him to travel at horse-speed rather than
> man-speed.

	OK, I understand that. But to use your analogy, what's being
	discussed here is not how the horse could eventually be used,
	but whether the horse exists at all. 

	Is the horse just some mathematical artifact in some mystical
	theory, or is there unambiguous experimental data associated
	with it?

	




From juan.g71 at gmail.com  Fri Aug  5 01:46:54 2016
From: juan.g71 at gmail.com (juan)
Date: Fri, 5 Aug 2016 05:46:54 -0300
Subject: Quantum entangled-photon Chinese satellite.
In-Reply-To: <66033484.11995265.1470384819262.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com>
References: <255450741.10726589.1470277325532.JavaMail.yahoo.ref@mail.yahoo.com>
 <255450741.10726589.1470277325532.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com>
 <687871470314039@web15g.yandex.ru>
 <1603947053.11044988.1470329352392.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com>
 <57a3a57f.0703370a.241d8.c3ea@mx.google.com>
 <1359771938.2091832.1470347891966.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com>
 <20160805012907.GL2570@x220-a02>
 <57a3f1d9.012fed0a.814f7.fd06@mx.google.com>
 <66033484.11995265.1470384819262.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <57a45185.442eed0a.6cca3.293c@mx.google.com>

On Fri, 5 Aug 2016 08:13:39 +0000 (UTC)
jim bell <jdb10987 at yahoo.com> wrote:

> 
> I thought of an interesting thought-experiment 

	... description of experiment...
	

> But, the information within it wasn'tactually
> readable for one year, until the decrypt key arrived.  Can we say
> that this information arrived after one year, and thus at an effective
> speed of 'c'?  If it is the former, somehow the idea that information
> can't be transmitted at fasterthan 'c' is invalid.  If it's the
> latter, this appears to confirm that limit. Which is it? 

	I think that in your scenario, the encrypted information was
	transmitted at faster than light speed. 


> You said:
>  "Yep. It either works or not." The 'gotcha' is that whether it
> "works" or not is dependent on your definition of the word, '

	OK. In this case, the part of the system that transmits
	encrypted information at ftl speed indeed works, but the system
	as a whole can't transmit useful information at ftl speed, so I
	would say it doesn't 'work', or doesn't have an obvious
	practical application. 


> works'.
>  Does it seem to transmit the data virtually instantly?  Yes.  Is
> that information available immediately?  No. It takes a year to learn
> the contentof that encrypted file. Is the limit of 'c' violated?   I
> don't know.  What do you think? 

	Yes, the limit of c is violated, but I don't think that is a
	problem, because contrary to 'scientific' dogma, I don't
	believe there must be an absolute (haha!) maximum speed that
	moving objects can't exceed.

	Now, although your hypothetical scenario makes sense, the
	question remains : do entangled particles actually behave like
	in  your scenario?

	(I'll do some searching tomorrow, see what comes up)












From oshwm at openmailbox.org  Thu Aug  4 23:11:11 2016
From: oshwm at openmailbox.org (oshwm)
Date: Fri, 05 Aug 2016 07:11:11 +0100
Subject: Quantum entangled-photon Chinese satellite.
In-Reply-To: <57a42a01.1724c80a.9ff72.1a86@mx.google.com>
References: <255450741.10726589.1470277325532.JavaMail.yahoo.ref@mail.yahoo.com>
 <255450741.10726589.1470277325532.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com>
 <687871470314039@web15g.yandex.ru>
 <1603947053.11044988.1470329352392.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com>
 <57a3a57f.0703370a.241d8.c3ea@mx.google.com>
 <1359771938.2091832.1470347891966.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com>
 <20160805012907.GL2570@x220-a02> <57a3f1d9.012fed0a.814f7.fd06@mx.google.com>
 <61801470374359@web4g.yandex.ru> <57a42a01.1724c80a.9ff72.1a86@mx.google.com>
Message-ID: <B623340B-EFB9-4DE5-B092-9DC6683C2F9F@openmailbox.org>

would the case for no data travel require that both particles exist in the same space and time?
also, if measuring a quantum object changes it, can you not measure twice or similar using the measurements to both derive its original state and return it to its original state?

(yep, now the schoolboy physicists are getting involved :D )


On 5 August 2016 06:58:15 BST, juan <juan.g71 at gmail.com> wrote:
>On Fri, 05 Aug 2016 07:19:19 +0200
>Bastiani Fortress <bastianifortress at yandex.com> wrote:
>
>> As i can remember, the point was when two particles are entangled,
>> they bear the same quantum state, and they simultaneously shift their
>> states önce either of them is "observed". 
>
>	OK.
>
>> So you know that the other
>> twin is in the same state, but you cannot code it at will, 
>
>	Not sure what you mean by "code it".
>
>
>> and since
>> you don't know its first state without having "observed" it, you
>> cannot determine whether the other twin has been observed or not
>
>	And now I'm even more confused =P
>
>	But let's go back to your first sentence. You have a couple of
>	'entangled' particles. Trying to measure particle 'A' triggers
>	a change in particle 'B' - is that what you are saying? 
>
>	If that's the case, then you do have 'information transfer' -
>	one bit. 
>
>
>> (that would be 1 bit of data streaming).
>> 
>> This is what i remember from what i read years ago, please correct me
>> if i'm wrong.
>> 
>>
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From bastianifortress at yandex.com  Thu Aug  4 22:19:19 2016
From: bastianifortress at yandex.com (Bastiani Fortress)
Date: Fri, 05 Aug 2016 07:19:19 +0200
Subject: Quantum entangled-photon Chinese satellite.
In-Reply-To: <57a3f1d9.012fed0a.814f7.fd06@mx.google.com>
References: <255450741.10726589.1470277325532.JavaMail.yahoo.ref@mail.yahoo.com>
 <255450741.10726589.1470277325532.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com>
 <687871470314039@web15g.yandex.ru>
 <1603947053.11044988.1470329352392.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com>
 <57a3a57f.0703370a.241d8.c3ea@mx.google.com>
 <1359771938.2091832.1470347891966.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com>
 <20160805012907.GL2570@x220-a02> <57a3f1d9.012fed0a.814f7.fd06@mx.google.com>
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From jnn at synfin.org  Fri Aug  5 04:30:22 2016
From: jnn at synfin.org (John)
Date: Fri, 05 Aug 2016 07:30:22 -0400
Subject: spanking / corporal punishment ?
In-Reply-To: <20160804023913.GI2570@x220-a02>
References: <20160804023913.GI2570@x220-a02>
Message-ID: <227DE2B9-AC85-40C3-9EE0-45AD95C70FBC@synfin.org>

A child assaults an adult - it's a crime.
A child assaults another child - it's a crime.
An adult assaults ANYONE except their own child - it's a crime.
Adult assaults their own kid - it's corporal punishment!

Probably half the parents out there spanking their kids are getting their rocks off at the same time. It's a lazy, mean way to raise a kid.

John 

On August 3, 2016 10:39:13 PM EDT, Zenaan Harkness <zen at freedbms.net> wrote:
>What do folks think?
>
>(For one viewpoint:
>http://russia-insider.com/en/politics/russian-lawmakers-deserve-spanking-interfering-traditional-families/ri15967
>)

-- 
Sent from my Android device with K-9 Mail. Please excuse my brevity.
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From jdb10987 at yahoo.com  Fri Aug  5 01:13:39 2016
From: jdb10987 at yahoo.com (jim bell)
Date: Fri, 5 Aug 2016 08:13:39 +0000 (UTC)
Subject: Quantum entangled-photon Chinese satellite.
In-Reply-To: <57a3f1d9.012fed0a.814f7.fd06@mx.google.com>
References: <255450741.10726589.1470277325532.JavaMail.yahoo.ref@mail.yahoo.com>
 <255450741.10726589.1470277325532.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com>
 <687871470314039@web15g.yandex.ru>
 <1603947053.11044988.1470329352392.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com>
 <57a3a57f.0703370a.241d8.c3ea@mx.google.com>
 <1359771938.2091832.1470347891966.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com>
 <20160805012907.GL2570@x220-a02> <57a3f1d9.012fed0a.814f7.fd06@mx.google.com>
Message-ID: <66033484.11995265.1470384819262.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com>



 From: juan <juan.g71 at gmail.com>
On Fri, 5 Aug 2016 11:29:07 +1000
Zenaan Harkness <zen at freedbms.net> wrote:

>> It does sound like the obvious is being missed - so entangled photon
>> paris can be created, and we can know at one end, if the photon at the
>> other end is "read", and this apparently happens at at a minimum of
>> 10k.c;
> 
>> Surely, one could simply create a suitably large number of entangled
>> photon pairs, as an array, and then read them, or not read them, at
>> the end you want to "send" information from, and "detect" (so this
>> weird quantum mechanics story goes) those reads at the other end.
I can, but don't call me Shirley.
>> Read + Not read = 1 bit.
> >What seems to be implied in the stories so far is that the information
> >must be transmitted through changing states of a single entangled
>> photon
>> - which assumption makes no sense at all. There's a purported
>> phenomena, use it!

>    Yep. It either works or not. And if it works you should be able
>   to get some 'macroscopic' result/data transmission (of course
>    the micro/macro divide is just pseudo-scientific, absurd
>    bullshit)

I thought of an interesting thought-experiment that may clarify the situation.It's new, and doesn't precisely follow quantum, but here goes:
Suppose you have two points in space,  for concreteness 1 light-year apart.There is a Star-trek type transporter, one pad at each location.  But it canonly transport information, not matter.
Place a data file on the first pad, press the button, and it will be virtuallyinstantly sent to the second pad, 1 l.y. away.  But the 'gotcha' is that itwon't arrive in plaintext:  It will be encrypted.  It can still be read as seemingly random, encrypted bits, and there are crc's, checksums,'fire codes', and other verifications that the whole file arrived successfully.
The first (originating) transporter also generates a key, which can be usedto decrypt the file.  Problem is, it can only be sent by laser, and thus at 'c'.Send the file, and it appears virtually instantly at the far end.  But its actualunencrypted contents cannot be read in plaintext.  The data packet mustbe placed on the shelf, and after one year the photon-beam containing thedecrypt code packet arrives.   (Possibly with the addition of a copy of the original message, for additional certainty that they got the original message.).
They apply the decrypt key to the packet which arrived one year before.The decrypt works, and they discover that the message is identical to theone sent by laser one year previous, and was just received a moment before.
Wouldn't it be possible to argue that the data MUST have travelled at 10,000+'c'?  If it hadn't, how could the values of data on the printout have been determined'instantly'?
Question:  At what rate did that "instantaneous" data transfer occur?  Well,it sure looks like it was indeed "instantaneous".  The original packet arrived,it was placed on the shelf in seconds.  But, the information within it wasn'tactually readable for one year, until the decrypt key arrived.  Can we say thatthis information arrived after one year, and thus at an effective speed of 'c'?  If it is the former, somehow the idea that information can't be transmitted at fasterthan 'c' is invalid.  If it's the latter, this appears to confirm that limit.
Which is it?
You said:  "Yep. It either works or not."
The 'gotcha' is that whether it "works" or not is dependent on your definition of the word, 'works'.  Does it seem to transmit the data virtually instantly?  Yes.  Is that information available immediately?  No. It takes a year to learn the contentof that encrypted file.
Is the limit of 'c' violated?   I don't know.  What do you think?
            Jim Bell
  
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From jdb10987 at yahoo.com  Fri Aug  5 01:58:52 2016
From: jdb10987 at yahoo.com (jim bell)
Date: Fri, 5 Aug 2016 08:58:52 +0000 (UTC)
Subject: Quantum entangled-photon Chinese satellite.
In-Reply-To: <20160805080713.GE1038@sivokote.iziade.m$>
References: <255450741.10726589.1470277325532.JavaMail.yahoo.ref@mail.yahoo.com>
 <255450741.10726589.1470277325532.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com>
 <687871470314039@web15g.yandex.ru>
 <1603947053.11044988.1470329352392.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com>
 <57a3a57f.0703370a.241d8.c3ea@mx.google.com>
 <1359771938.2091832.1470347891966.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com>
 <57a3c0a1.84bd370a.2e08f.dde4@mx.google.com>
 <953028539.36755.1470353627925.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com>
 <57a44457.4c64370a.22ed0.1e04@mx.google.com>
 <20160805080713.GE1038@sivokote.iziade.m$>
Message-ID: <2034279837.11486285.1470387532268.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com>



 From: Georgi Guninski <guninski at guninski.com>
>Disclaimer: I am lamer in physics.
>I think the analogy shows that FTL (superluminal) speed exist and is
>experimentally observed, this doesn't contradict relativity.
>What contradicts relativity is _communication_ or clock synchronization
>faster than light.

>IIRC if you point powerful projector at the Moon and move it slightly,
>this light on Moon will move FTL at least from your point of view. 
>Jim's horse was something like this.

Yes, this is what I was alluding to when I used the term, "phase velocity".https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phase_velocity    Although, it isn't really clear from this articlethat the phase can travel far faster than 'c', nevertheless the information the wave transmits is limited to its "group velocity", which cannot travel faster than 'c'. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Group_velocity The moon's diameter is about 2169 miles.  If you aimed a laser beam to one edgeof the moon, and then quickly (0.01 second) moved the beam to the other edge,the spot would look like it's travelling at 216,900 miles per second, well beyond 'c'.(ignoring the fact that the moon is a spheroid, not a flat surface, of course.)
There is no actual communication from those two points on opposite sides of the moon,nor are massive particles moving from one point to the other.
I learned my physics from course 8.03 at MIT, with the coursebook by Bekefi andBarrett, titled "Electromagnetic Waves and Vibrations".https://mitpress.mit.edu/books/electromagnetic-vibrations-waves-and-radiation 

Unfortunately, that was the last advanced physics course I took, having to focus on my major, chemistry.     The next Physics course, that I didn't take, was 8.04, "Quantum
Physics".   http://ocw.mit.edu/courses/physics/8-04-quantum-physics-i-spring-2013/   Not that I didn't learn quantum at all, but I learned it from the direction of chemistry.That class was 5.61, and 5.62,  Physical Chemistry.  http://search.mit.edu/search?site=ocw&client=mit&getfields=*&output=xml_no_dtd&proxystylesheet=http%3A%2F%2Focw.mit.edu%2Fsearch%2Fgoogle-ocw.xsl&requiredfields=WT%252Ecg_s%3ACourse+Home%7CWT%252Ecg_s%3AResource+Home&sectionlimit=WT%252Ecg_s%3ACourse+Home%7CWT%252Ecg_s%3AResource+Home&as_dt=i&oe=utf-8&departmentName=web&filter=0&courseName=&q=5.61&btnG.x=0&btnG.y=0   


  
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From mirimir at riseup.net  Fri Aug  5 08:10:42 2016
From: mirimir at riseup.net (Mirimir)
Date: Fri, 5 Aug 2016 09:10:42 -0600
Subject: Quantum entangled-photon Chinese satellite.
In-Reply-To: <20160805115131.GH1038@sivokote.iziade.m$>
References: <255450741.10726589.1470277325532.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com>
 <687871470314039@web15g.yandex.ru>
 <1603947053.11044988.1470329352392.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com>
 <57a3a57f.0703370a.241d8.c3ea@mx.google.com>
 <1359771938.2091832.1470347891966.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com>
 <57a3c0a1.84bd370a.2e08f.dde4@mx.google.com>
 <953028539.36755.1470353627925.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com>
 <57a44457.4c64370a.22ed0.1e04@mx.google.com>
 <20160805080713.GE1038@sivokote.iziade.m$>
 <2034279837.11486285.1470387532268.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com>
 <20160805115131.GH1038@sivokote.iziade.m$>
Message-ID: <57A4AC72.6000301@riseup.net>

Here, from <http://www.scottaaronson.com/blog/?p=2464>:

> A few weeks ago, Hensen et al., of the Delft University of Technology
> and Barcelona, Spain, put out a paper reporting the first experiment
> that violates the Bell inequality in a way that closes off the two
> main loopholes simultaneously: the locality and detection loopholes.
> Well, at least with ~96% confidence. This is big news, not only
> because of the result itself, but because of the advances in
> experimental technique needed to achieve it. Last Friday, two
> renowned experimentalists—Chris Monroe of U. of Maryland and Jungsang
> Kim of Duke—visited MIT, and in addition to talking about their own
> exciting ion-trap work, they did a huge amount to help me understand
> the new Bell test experiment. So OK, let me try to explain this.
> 
> While some people like to make it more complicated, the Bell
> inequality is the following statement. Alice and Bob are cooperating
> with each other to win a certain game (the “CHSH game“) with the
> highest possible probability. They can agree on a strategy and share
> information and particles in advance, but then they can’t communicate
> once the game starts. Alice gets a uniform random bit x, and Bob gets
> a uniform random bit y (independent of x). Their goal is to output
> bits, a and b respectively, such that a XOR b = x AND y: in other
> words, such that a and b are different if and only if x and y are
> both 1. The Bell inequality says that, in any universe that satisfies
> the property of local realism, no matter which strategy they use,
> Alice and Bob can win the game at most 75% of the time (for example,
> by always outputting a=b=0).
> 
> What does local realism mean? It means that, after she receives her
> input x, any experiment Alice can perform in her lab has a definite
> result that might depend on x, on the state of her lab, and on
> whatever information she pre-shared with Bob, but at any rate, not on
> Bob’s input y. If you like: a=a(x,w) is a function of x and of the
> information w available before the game started, but is not a
> function of y. Likewise, b=b(y,w) is a function of y and w, but not
> of x. Perhaps the best way to explain local realism is that it’s the
> thing you believe in, if you believe all the physicists babbling
> about “quantum entanglement” just missed something completely
> obvious. Clearly, at the moment two “entangled” particles are
> created, but before they separate, one of them flips a tiny coin and
> then says to the other, “listen, if anyone asks, I’ll be spinning up
> and you’ll be spinning down.” Then the naïve, doofus physicists
> measure one particle, find it spinning down, and wonder how the other
> particle instantly “knows” to be spinning up—oooh, spooky!
> mysterious! Anyway, if that’s how you think it has to work, then you
> believe in local realism, and you must predict that Alice and Bob can
> win the CHSH game with probability at most 3/4.
> 
> What Bell observed in 1964 is that, even though quantum mechanics
> doesn’t let Alice send a signal to Bob (or vice versa) faster than
> the speed of light, it still makes a prediction about the CHSH game
> that conflicts with local realism. (And thus, quantum mechanics
> exhibits what one might not have realized beforehand was even a
> logical possibility: it doesn’t allow communication faster than
> light, but simulating the predictions of quantum mechanics in a
> classical universe would require faster-than-light communication.) In
> particular, if Alice and Bob share entangled qubits, say
> $$\frac{\left| 00 \right\rangle + \left| 11
> \right\rangle}{\sqrt{2}},$$ then there’s a simple protocol that lets
> them violate the Bell inequality, winning the CHSH game ~85% of the
> time (with probability (1+1/√2)/2 > 3/4). Starting in the 1970s,
> people did experiments that vindicated the prediction of quantum
> mechanics, and falsified local realism—or so the story goes.

Discussion in <https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=10269297>

OK, so local realism is dead. But what is it? An excerpt from above:

> Perhaps the best way to explain local realism is that it’s the thing
> you believe in, if you believe all the physicists babbling about
> “quantum entanglement” just missed something completely obvious.

And here's the tl;dr:

> (And thus, quantum mechanics exhibits what one might not have
> realized beforehand was even a logical possibility: it doesn’t allow
> communication faster than light, but simulating the predictions
> of quantum mechanics in a classical universe would require
> faster-than-light communication.)

Another chunk:

> The violation of the Bell inequality has a schizophrenic status in
> physics.  To many of the physicists I know, Nature’s violating the
> Bell inequality is so trivial and obvious that it’s barely even
> worth doing the experiment: if people had just understood and
> believed Bohr and Heisenberg back in 1925, there would’ve been no
> need for this whole tiresome discussion.

Me, I like the many worlds interpretation. But it's just an
interpretation. What matters is the math.




From guninski at guninski.com  Thu Aug  4 23:20:48 2016
From: guninski at guninski.com (Georgi Guninski)
Date: Fri, 5 Aug 2016 09:20:48 +0300
Subject: Quantum entangled-photon Chinese satellite.
In-Reply-To: <255450741.10726589.1470277325532.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com>
References: <255450741.10726589.1470277325532.JavaMail.yahoo.ref@mail.yahoo.com>
 <255450741.10726589.1470277325532.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <20160805062048.GB1038@sivokote.iziade.m$>

On Thu, Aug 04, 2016 at 02:22:05AM +0000, jim bell wrote:
> http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sciencetech/article-3720772/China-launch-unbreakable-quantum-spy-satellite-say-one-day-lead-megascope-size-Earth-spot-license-plate-Jupiter-s-moons.html

Bugs me with what energy the particles communicate.
AFAICT every communication needs some energy.
Two small photons far away communicate.
Where the energy comes from? Even just to keep them in a relation so
they can communicate?

Will they communicate if they are on the opposite sides of Earth (or
Sun)?

In this question I don't care about the speed.




From guninski at guninski.com  Thu Aug  4 23:52:03 2016
From: guninski at guninski.com (Georgi Guninski)
Date: Fri, 5 Aug 2016 09:52:03 +0300
Subject: Quantum entangled-photon Chinese satellite.
In-Reply-To: <57a42a01.1724c80a.9ff72.1a86@mx.google.com>
References: <255450741.10726589.1470277325532.JavaMail.yahoo.ref@mail.yahoo.com>
 <255450741.10726589.1470277325532.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com>
 <687871470314039@web15g.yandex.ru>
 <1603947053.11044988.1470329352392.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com>
 <57a3a57f.0703370a.241d8.c3ea@mx.google.com>
 <1359771938.2091832.1470347891966.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com>
 <20160805012907.GL2570@x220-a02>
 <57a3f1d9.012fed0a.814f7.fd06@mx.google.com>
 <61801470374359@web4g.yandex.ru>
 <57a42a01.1724c80a.9ff72.1a86@mx.google.com>
Message-ID: <20160805065203.GC1038@sivokote.iziade.m$>

On Fri, Aug 05, 2016 at 02:58:15AM -0300, juan wrote:
> 
> 	And now I'm even more confused =P
> 
> 	But let's go back to your first sentence. You have a couple of
> 	'entangled' particles. Trying to measure particle 'A' triggers
> 	a change in particle 'B' - is that what you are saying? 
> 
> 	If that's the case, then you do have 'information transfer' -
> 	one bit. 
> 
>
This appears to be the current consensus explained for
dummies:

http://curious.astro.cornell.edu/about-us/137-physics/general-physics/particles-and-quantum-physics/810-does-quantum-entanglement-imply-faster-than-light-communication-intermediate

| Does quantum entanglement imply faster than light communication? (Intermediate)

I don't understand physics, so it well might be state
conspiracy ;)

 




From bastianifortress at yandex.com  Fri Aug  5 00:55:16 2016
From: bastianifortress at yandex.com (Bastiani Fortress)
Date: Fri, 05 Aug 2016 09:55:16 +0200
Subject: Quantum entangled-photon Chinese satellite.
In-Reply-To: <20160805061840.GP2570@x220-a02>
References: <255450741.10726589.1470277325532.JavaMail.yahoo.ref@mail.yahoo.com>
 <255450741.10726589.1470277325532.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com>
 <687871470314039@web15g.yandex.ru>
 <1603947053.11044988.1470329352392.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com>
 <57a3a57f.0703370a.241d8.c3ea@mx.google.com>
 <1359771938.2091832.1470347891966.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com>
 <20160805012907.GL2570@x220-a02>
 <57a3f1d9.012fed0a.814f7.fd06@mx.google.com>
 <61801470374359@web4g.yandex.ru> <20160805061840.GP2570@x220-a02>
Message-ID: <1071831470383716@web12h.yandex.ru>

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From guninski at guninski.com  Fri Aug  5 00:29:41 2016
From: guninski at guninski.com (Georgi Guninski)
Date: Fri, 5 Aug 2016 10:29:41 +0300
Subject: Quantum entangled-photon Chinese satellite.
In-Reply-To: <20160805012907.GL2570@x220-a02>
References: <255450741.10726589.1470277325532.JavaMail.yahoo.ref@mail.yahoo.com>
 <255450741.10726589.1470277325532.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com>
 <687871470314039@web15g.yandex.ru>
 <1603947053.11044988.1470329352392.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com>
 <57a3a57f.0703370a.241d8.c3ea@mx.google.com>
 <1359771938.2091832.1470347891966.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com>
 <20160805012907.GL2570@x220-a02>
Message-ID: <20160805072941.GD1038@sivokote.iziade.m$>

On Fri, Aug 05, 2016 at 11:29:07AM +1000, Zenaan Harkness wrote:
> Read + Not read = 1 bit.
> 
> What seems to be implied in the stories so far is that the information
> must be transmitted through changing states of a single entangled photon
> - which assumption makes no sense at all. There's a purported phenomena,
> use it!
> 
> 
> What are we missing here?

I for one am missing the fundamentals of physics and in addition the
details of quantum stuff (when I try to explain to non-technical user
what is say CPU, I end up far from the truth).

Your idea makes sense to me, so consider asking on some physics forum.

Have in mind superluminal info transfer is very crank/lunatic friendly topic, so
word it very carefully, otherwise they will insult you before reading it
at all.





From guninski at guninski.com  Fri Aug  5 01:07:13 2016
From: guninski at guninski.com (Georgi Guninski)
Date: Fri, 5 Aug 2016 11:07:13 +0300
Subject: Quantum entangled-photon Chinese satellite.
In-Reply-To: <57a44457.4c64370a.22ed0.1e04@mx.google.com>
References: <255450741.10726589.1470277325532.JavaMail.yahoo.ref@mail.yahoo.com>
 <255450741.10726589.1470277325532.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com>
 <687871470314039@web15g.yandex.ru>
 <1603947053.11044988.1470329352392.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com>
 <57a3a57f.0703370a.241d8.c3ea@mx.google.com>
 <1359771938.2091832.1470347891966.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com>
 <57a3c0a1.84bd370a.2e08f.dde4@mx.google.com>
 <953028539.36755.1470353627925.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com>
 <57a44457.4c64370a.22ed0.1e04@mx.google.com>
Message-ID: <20160805080713.GE1038@sivokote.iziade.m$>

On Fri, Aug 05, 2016 at 04:50:37AM -0300, juan wrote:
> On Thu, 4 Aug 2016 23:33:47 +0000 (UTC)
> jim bell <jdb10987 at yahoo.com> wrote:
> 
> 
> > If I see a horse running in the prairie, and yet I cannot
> > capture him, Icannot use him to travel at horse-speed rather than
> > man-speed.
> 
> 	OK, I understand that. But to use your analogy, what's being
> 	discussed here is not how the horse could eventually be used,
> 	but whether the horse exists at all. 
> 
> 	Is the horse just some mathematical artifact in some mystical
> 	theory, or is there unambiguous experimental data associated
> 	with it?
> 
>

Disclaimer: I am lamer in physics.

I think the analogy shows that FTL (superluminal) speed exist and is
experimentally observed, this doesn't contradict relativity.

What contradicts relativity is _communication_ or clock synchronization
faster than light.

IIRC if you point powerful projector at the Moon and move it slightly,
this light on Moon will move FTL at least from your point of view. 
Jim's horse was something like this.

Check wikipedia for faster than light for more examples like this.
 	




From zen at freedbms.net  Thu Aug  4 18:29:07 2016
From: zen at freedbms.net (Zenaan Harkness)
Date: Fri, 5 Aug 2016 11:29:07 +1000
Subject: Quantum entangled-photon Chinese satellite.
In-Reply-To: <1359771938.2091832.1470347891966.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com>
References: <255450741.10726589.1470277325532.JavaMail.yahoo.ref@mail.yahoo.com>
 <255450741.10726589.1470277325532.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com>
 <687871470314039@web15g.yandex.ru>
 <1603947053.11044988.1470329352392.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com>
 <57a3a57f.0703370a.241d8.c3ea@mx.google.com>
 <1359771938.2091832.1470347891966.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <20160805012907.GL2570@x220-a02>

On Thu, Aug 04, 2016 at 09:58:11PM +0000, jim bell wrote:
>  From: juan <juan.g71 at gmail.com>
> On Thu, 4 Aug 2016 16:49:12 +0000 (UTC)
> jim bell <jdb10987 at yahoo.com> wrote:

>   >  If 'something' is moving at faster than light speed, then some
>   > information must be being transmitted. If no information is
> >    being transmitted, then by definition, there's no way to measure
>   >  speed and the claim makes no sense.
> Well, that's the problem.  Knowing that SOMETHING is being
> transmitted, and actuallyUSING that method to transmit useful
> information, are (quite strangely) two differentthings.  That, also is
> the amazing implications of entangled photons.

It does sound like the obvious is being missed - so entangled photon
paris can be created, and we can know at one end, if the photon at the
other end is "read", and this apparently happens at at a minimum of
10k.c;

Surely, one could simply create a suitably large number of entangled
photon pairs, as an array, and then read them, or not read them, at the
end you want to "send" information from, and "detect" (so this weird
quantum mechanics story goes) those reads at the other end.

Read + Not read = 1 bit.

What seems to be implied in the stories so far is that the information
must be transmitted through changing states of a single entangled photon
- which assumption makes no sense at all. There's a purported phenomena,
use it!


What are we missing here?




From guninski at guninski.com  Fri Aug  5 01:43:46 2016
From: guninski at guninski.com (Georgi Guninski)
Date: Fri, 5 Aug 2016 11:43:46 +0300
Subject: Quantum entangled-photon Chinese satellite.
In-Reply-To: <66033484.11995265.1470384819262.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com>
References: <255450741.10726589.1470277325532.JavaMail.yahoo.ref@mail.yahoo.com>
 <255450741.10726589.1470277325532.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com>
 <687871470314039@web15g.yandex.ru>
 <1603947053.11044988.1470329352392.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com>
 <57a3a57f.0703370a.241d8.c3ea@mx.google.com>
 <1359771938.2091832.1470347891966.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com>
 <20160805012907.GL2570@x220-a02>
 <57a3f1d9.012fed0a.814f7.fd06@mx.google.com>
 <66033484.11995265.1470384819262.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <20160805084346.GF1038@sivokote.iziade.m$>

On Fri, Aug 05, 2016 at 08:13:39AM +0000, jim bell wrote:
> I thought of an interesting thought-experiment that may clarify the situation.It's new, and doesn't precisely follow quantum, but here goes:

Much simpler stuff might violate C :)
Maybe the simplest is that Tachyons actually exist, humans can't detect
them yet.

When CERN announced FTL several years ago, it was fun trolling
orthodoxal physics, too bad CERN withdraw the result.

> Is the limit of 'c' violated?   I don't know.  What do you think?

Consider asking on some physic forum, probably physics.stackexchange.com
(first check if the question is elite enough for them).





From guninski at guninski.com  Fri Aug  5 02:17:10 2016
From: guninski at guninski.com (Georgi Guninski)
Date: Fri, 5 Aug 2016 12:17:10 +0300
Subject: [OT] What is the "imaginary mass" in a Tachyonic field?
Message-ID: <20160805091710.GG1038@sivokote.iziade.m$>

This confuses me:
https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Tachyonic_field&oldid=730595004
| A tachyonic field, or simply tachyon, is a quantum field with an imaginary mass.

"imaginary" links to imaginary number, using i^2= -1.


So far, as I read it, this means the mass can be say 1i
grams.

Later comes the confusion, wiki explains "imaginary" as real 
(in the math sense).

| The "imaginary mass" really means that the system becomes unstable.

IIRC relativity has formulas with factors of the form
sqrt(1-v^2/c^2) which go imaginary when v>c and without
doubt scientists know this.

Someone knows what "imaginary" means in this context?

AFAICT Tachyonic fields exist unconditionally.




From mirimir at riseup.net  Fri Aug  5 12:56:15 2016
From: mirimir at riseup.net (Mirimir)
Date: Fri, 5 Aug 2016 13:56:15 -0600
Subject: Quantum entangled-photon Chinese satellite.
In-Reply-To: <20160805181424.GV2570@x220-a02>
References: <1603947053.11044988.1470329352392.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com>
 <57a3a57f.0703370a.241d8.c3ea@mx.google.com>
 <1359771938.2091832.1470347891966.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com>
 <57a3c0a1.84bd370a.2e08f.dde4@mx.google.com>
 <953028539.36755.1470353627925.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com>
 <57a44457.4c64370a.22ed0.1e04@mx.google.com>
 <20160805080713.GE1038@sivokote.iziade.m$>
 <2034279837.11486285.1470387532268.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com>
 <20160805115131.GH1038@sivokote.iziade.m$> <57A4AC72.6000301@riseup.net>
 <20160805181424.GV2570@x220-a02>
Message-ID: <57A4EF5F.5000600@riseup.net>

On 08/05/2016 12:14 PM, Zenaan Harkness wrote:
> On Fri, Aug 05, 2016 at 09:10:42AM -0600, Mirimir wrote:
> ...
>> Here, from <http://www.scottaaronson.com/blog/?p=2464>:
>>> The violation of the Bell inequality has a schizophrenic status in
>>> physics.  To many of the physicists I know, Nature’s violating the
>>> Bell inequality is so trivial and obvious that it’s barely even
>>> worth doing the experiment: if people had just understood and
>>> believed Bohr and Heisenberg back in 1925, there would’ve been no
>>> need for this whole tiresome discussion.
> 
> Seriously, I am none the wiser and cannot yet make sense of what they
> are saying.

First you create entangled electrons in two distant diamonds [separated
by 1.5 km in Hensen et al. (2015) and apparently 750 mi in the
Chinese-Austrian experiment described in the news article]. You do that
by exchanging photons, which travel at light-speed or less. Then you
measure the spins of those entangled electrons. And you find that the
spins are correlated in a way that's predicted by quantum mechanics, but
would be possible under classical mechanics (aka realism) only if the
entangled electrons could communicate at greater than light-speed.

So basically, they find that the classical model of reality is fucked.

Here's the abstract from Hensen et al. (2015)
<https://arxiv.org/abs/1508.05949>:

> For more than 80 years, the counterintuitive predictions of quantum
> theory have stimulated debate about the nature of reality. In his
> seminal work, John Bell proved that no theory of nature that obeys
> locality and realism can reproduce all the predictions of quantum
> theory. Bell showed that in any local realist theory the correlations
> between distant measurements satisfy an inequality and, moreover,
> that this inequality can be violated according to quantum theory.
> This provided a recipe for experimental tests of the fundamental
> principles underlying the laws of nature. In the past decades,
> numerous ingenious Bell inequality tests have been reported.
> However, because of experimental limitations, all experiments to
> date required additional assumptions to obtain a contradiction with
> local realism, resulting in loopholes. Here we report on a Bell
> experiment that is free of any such additional assumption and thus
> directly tests the principles underlying Bell's inequality. We
> employ an event-ready scheme that enables the generation of
> high-fidelity entanglement between distant electron spins.
> Efficient spin readout avoids the fair sampling assumption
> (detection loophole), while the use of fast random basis
> selection and readout combined with a spatial separation of 1.3
> km ensure the required locality conditions. We perform 245
> trials testing the CHSH-Bell inequality S≤2 and find S=2.42±0.20.
> A null hypothesis test yields a probability of p=0.039 that a
> local-realist model for space-like separated sites produces
> data with a violation at least as large as observed, even when
> allowing for memory in the devices. This result rules out large
> classes of local realist theories, and paves the way for
> implementing device-independent quantum-secure communication
> and randomness certification. 

The news article is full of bullshit.

> China apparently is putting this experiment in space - are they winning
> a game on prediction of one particular bit with > 75% probability, and
> if so, can they run that game numerous times to get that probability
> close to 100%, and if so, can the random inputs to each side be made not
> random so that the result of the game is transmission of information?
> 
> I cannot begin to answer any of these questions sorry...

As I understand it, they're just pushing the separation to 750 miles.
We're still a long way from transmitting useful data. And recall that
creating entanglement requires synchronization at light-speed or less.

>> Me, I like the many worlds interpretation. But it's just an
>> interpretation. What matters is the math.
> 
> That sounds much more interesting than the implications of 'dull'
> said to be arising from qubits :)
> 
> The hope is that since some say the experiment is pretty dull to begin
> with, then perhaps there is a soul alive who could answer the above
> questions... we can only hope.

In saying that it's dull, they're pointing out that what matters is the
math of quantum mechanics. It's just math. Equations. There's no mental
model, no story in words about how reality works. The interpretations
are just stories.




From spencerone at openmailbox.org  Fri Aug  5 14:38:42 2016
From: spencerone at openmailbox.org (Spencer)
Date: Fri, 05 Aug 2016 14:38:42 -0700
Subject: Quantum entangled-photon Chinese satellite.
In-Reply-To: <57a4f618.44a6370a.38261.bfc0@mx.google.com>
References: <1603947053.11044988.1470329352392.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com>
 <57a3a57f.0703370a.241d8.c3ea@mx.google.com>
 <1359771938.2091832.1470347891966.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com>
 <57a3c0a1.84bd370a.2e08f.dde4@mx.google.com>
 <953028539.36755.1470353627925.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com>
 <57a44457.4c64370a.22ed0.1e04@mx.google.com>
 <20160805080713.GE1038@sivokote.iziade.m$>
 <2034279837.11486285.1470387532268.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com>
 <20160805115131.GH1038@sivokote.iziade.m$> <57A4AC72.6000301@riseup.net>
 <20160805181424.GV2570@x220-a02> <57A4EF5F.5000600@riseup.net>
 <57a4f618.44a6370a.38261.bfc0@mx.google.com>
Message-ID: <6741f82d607f7347796d03def4866ae4@openmailbox.org>

Hi,

> 
> juan:
> physics [&] bad philosophy
> 

Are often the same thing XD

Wordlife,
Spencer






From spencerone at openmailbox.org  Fri Aug  5 14:45:57 2016
From: spencerone at openmailbox.org (Spencer)
Date: Fri, 05 Aug 2016 14:45:57 -0700
Subject: FM Corporations/ businesses/ entitities
In-Reply-To: <57a4ffa8.0220ed0a.4d185.cc61@mx.google.com>
References: <20160730013607.GB17721@x220-a02>
 <04bfae7a-2de4-63e7-3adb-9bd54001d274@pilobilus.net>
 <20160803092946.GE2616@x220-a02>
 <CAHKdp-nG6UEVEn8CO0ENoZVm3nh1HGsZ+cKkx-SrbJeE2jr9TA@mail.gmail.com>
 <57a4ffa8.0220ed0a.4d185.cc61@mx.google.com>
Message-ID: <517c2716c857f5729bd262af42ac59a2@openmailbox.org>

Hi,

> 
> juan:
> Mercantilism
> 

Is trade.

You thought merchant, you XD

Wordlife,
Spencer






From guninski at guninski.com  Fri Aug  5 04:51:31 2016
From: guninski at guninski.com (Georgi Guninski)
Date: Fri, 5 Aug 2016 14:51:31 +0300
Subject: Quantum entangled-photon Chinese satellite.
In-Reply-To: <2034279837.11486285.1470387532268.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com>
References: <255450741.10726589.1470277325532.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com>
 <687871470314039@web15g.yandex.ru>
 <1603947053.11044988.1470329352392.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com>
 <57a3a57f.0703370a.241d8.c3ea@mx.google.com>
 <1359771938.2091832.1470347891966.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com>
 <57a3c0a1.84bd370a.2e08f.dde4@mx.google.com>
 <953028539.36755.1470353627925.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com>
 <57a44457.4c64370a.22ed0.1e04@mx.google.com>
 <20160805080713.GE1038@sivokote.iziade.m$>
 <2034279837.11486285.1470387532268.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <20160805115131.GH1038@sivokote.iziade.m$>

On Fri, Aug 05, 2016 at 08:58:52AM +0000, jim bell wrote:
>If you aimed a laser beam to one edgeof the moon, and then quickly (0.01 second) moved the beam to the other edge,the spot would look like it's travelling at 216,900 miles per second, well beyond 'c'.(ignoring the fact that the moon is a spheroid, not a flat surface, of course.)

What about this though experiment.
Assume that the dark side of the Moon is covered by white photosensitive
layer. If the layer is hit by light, it burns to black in $A$ seconds
($A$ is as low as possible).

You have very large budget and current technologies (lasers, spaceships,
etc.).

Your goal is to burn a black line on the dark side of the Moon as long
as possible in as low time as possible in Moon time. This is very close
to speed of fire.

In this scenario, can you violate 'c'?

Feel free to assume whatever you want about $A>=0$ and your distance to
moon.

The "line" need not be entirely straight.





From mirimir at riseup.net  Fri Aug  5 14:31:13 2016
From: mirimir at riseup.net (Mirimir)
Date: Fri, 5 Aug 2016 15:31:13 -0600
Subject: Quantum entangled-photon Chinese satellite.
In-Reply-To: <57a4f618.44a6370a.38261.bfc0@mx.google.com>
References: <1603947053.11044988.1470329352392.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com>
 <57a3a57f.0703370a.241d8.c3ea@mx.google.com>
 <1359771938.2091832.1470347891966.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com>
 <57a3c0a1.84bd370a.2e08f.dde4@mx.google.com>
 <953028539.36755.1470353627925.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com>
 <57a44457.4c64370a.22ed0.1e04@mx.google.com>
 <20160805080713.GE1038@sivokote.iziade.m$>
 <2034279837.11486285.1470387532268.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com>
 <20160805115131.GH1038@sivokote.iziade.m$> <57A4AC72.6000301@riseup.net>
 <20160805181424.GV2570@x220-a02> <57A4EF5F.5000600@riseup.net>
 <57a4f618.44a6370a.38261.bfc0@mx.google.com>
Message-ID: <57A505A1.6030801@riseup.net>

On 08/05/2016 02:29 PM, juan wrote:
> On Fri, 5 Aug 2016 13:56:15 -0600
> Mirimir <mirimir at riseup.net> wrote:
> 
>> First you create entangled electrons in two distant diamonds
>> [separated by 1.5 km in Hensen et al. (2015) and apparently 750 mi in
>> the Chinese-Austrian experiment described in the news article]. You
>> do that by exchanging photons, which travel at light-speed or less.
>> Then you measure the spins of those entangled electrons. And you find
>> that the spins are correlated in a way that's predicted by quantum
>> mechanics, but would be possible under classical mechanics (aka
>> realism) 
> 
> 	And full stop. You are not talking about physics. You are
> 	talking about bad philosophy. 

I'm just explaining what Hensen et al. (2015)
<https://arxiv.org/abs/1508.05949> reported. Read the damn paper if you
don't like my explanation. But read
<http://www.scottaaronson.com/blog/?p=2464> first ;)

> 	So, classical mechanics is realism. Fine. And the stuff the
> 	mainstream calls 'quantum mechanics' is what, then? Looks like
> 	it's not realism. So it is...bullshit.

The problem with classical mechanics is that it's not consistent with
measurements. Quantum mechanics is. The equations. According to the
Copenhagen interpretation, only the math matters. I don't like it any
more than you seem to. Because I'm not a mathematician.

But many worlds is very cool :) Read Stephenson's _Anathem_.

>> only if the entangled electrons could communicate at greater
>> than light-speed.
>>
>> So basically, they find that the classical model of reality is fucked.
> 
> 
> 	lol lol lol

You must be a local realist ;)

>> Here's the abstract from Hensen et al. (2015)
>> <https://arxiv.org/abs/1508.05949>:
>>
>>> For more than 80 years, the counterintuitive predictions of quantum
>>> theory have stimulated debate about the nature of reality. In his
>>> seminal work, John Bell proved that no theory of nature that obeys
>>> locality and realism can reproduce all the predictions of quantum
>>> theory. Bell showed that in any local realist theory the
>>> correlations between distant measurements satisfy an inequality
>>> and, moreover, that this inequality can be violated according to
>>> quantum theory. This provided a recipe for experimental tests of
>>> the fundamental principles underlying the laws of nature. In the
>>> past decades, numerous ingenious Bell inequality tests have been
>>> reported. However, because of experimental limitations, all
>>> experiments to date required additional assumptions to obtain a
>>> contradiction with local realism, resulting in loopholes. Here we
>>> report on a Bell experiment that is free of any such additional
>>> assumption and thus directly tests the principles underlying Bell's
>>> inequality. We employ an event-ready scheme that enables the
>>> generation of high-fidelity entanglement between distant electron
>>> spins. Efficient spin readout avoids the fair sampling assumption
>>> (detection loophole), while the use of fast random basis
>>> selection and readout combined with a spatial separation of 1.3
>>> km ensure the required locality conditions. We perform 245
>>> trials testing the CHSH-Bell inequality S≤2 and find S=2.42±0.20.
>>> A null hypothesis test yields a probability of p=0.039 that a
>>> local-realist model for space-like separated sites produces
>>> data with a violation at least as large as observed, even when
>>> allowing for memory in the devices. This result rules out large
>>> classes of local realist theories, and paves the way for
>>> implementing device-independent quantum-secure communication
>>> and randomness certification. 
>>
>> The news article is full of bullshit.
>>
>>> China apparently is putting this experiment in space - are they
>>> winning a game on prediction of one particular bit with > 75%
>>> probability, and if so, can they run that game numerous times to
>>> get that probability close to 100%, and if so, can the random
>>> inputs to each side be made not random so that the result of the
>>> game is transmission of information?
>>>
>>> I cannot begin to answer any of these questions sorry...
>>
>> As I understand it, they're just pushing the separation to 750 miles.
>> We're still a long way from transmitting useful data. And recall that
>> creating entanglement requires synchronization at light-speed or less.
>>
>>>> Me, I like the many worlds interpretation. But it's just an
>>>> interpretation. What matters is the math.
>>>
>>> That sounds much more interesting than the implications of 'dull'
>>> said to be arising from qubits :)
>>>
>>> The hope is that since some say the experiment is pretty dull to
>>> begin with, then perhaps there is a soul alive who could answer the
>>> above questions... we can only hope.
>>
>> In saying that it's dull, they're pointing out that what matters is
>> the math of quantum mechanics. It's just math. Equations. There's no
>> mental model, no story in words about how reality works. The
>> interpretations are just stories.
> 
> 
> 




From zen at freedbms.net  Thu Aug  4 23:18:40 2016
From: zen at freedbms.net (Zenaan Harkness)
Date: Fri, 5 Aug 2016 16:18:40 +1000
Subject: Quantum entangled-photon Chinese satellite.
In-Reply-To: <61801470374359@web4g.yandex.ru>
References: <255450741.10726589.1470277325532.JavaMail.yahoo.ref@mail.yahoo.com>
 <255450741.10726589.1470277325532.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com>
 <687871470314039@web15g.yandex.ru>
 <1603947053.11044988.1470329352392.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com>
 <57a3a57f.0703370a.241d8.c3ea@mx.google.com>
 <1359771938.2091832.1470347891966.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com>
 <20160805012907.GL2570@x220-a02>
 <57a3f1d9.012fed0a.814f7.fd06@mx.google.com>
 <61801470374359@web4g.yandex.ru>
Message-ID: <20160805061840.GP2570@x220-a02>

On Fri, Aug 05, 2016 at 07:19:19AM +0200, Bastiani Fortress wrote:
>    As i can remember, the point was when two particles are entangled,
>    they bear the same quantum state, and they simultaneously shift
>    their states önce either of them is "observed".

And if you 'observe' at the other side, you can determine that the first
side was already observed. Apparently.

Which is 1 bit (perhaps 1/2 a bit) of data transfer.

If this is not the case, then the descriptions on this list so far are
ambiguous to the point of not being interpretable... which would be
unfortunate.

I think someone's gonna have to try explaining again..


>    So you know that the other twin is in the same state, but you
>    cannot code it at will, and since you don't know its first state
>    without having "observed" it, you cannot determine whether the
>    other twin has been observed or not (that would be 1 bit of data
>    streaming).  This is what i remember from what i read years ago,
>    please correct me if i'm wrong.
>
>    5:11 AM, August 5, 2016, juan <juan.g71 at gmail.com>:
> 
>      On Fri, 5 Aug 2016 11:29:07 +1000
>      Zenaan Harkness <zen at freedbms.net> wrote:
> 
>       On Thu, Aug 04, 2016 at 09:58:11PM +0000, jim bell wrote:
>       > From: juan <juan.g71 at gmail.com>
>       > On Thu, 4 Aug 2016 16:49:12 +0000 (UTC)
>       > jim bell <jdb10987 at yahoo.com> wrote:
>       >   >  If 'something' is moving at faster than light speed, then some
>       >   > information must be being transmitted. If no information is
>       > >    being transmitted, then by definition, there's no way to
>       > > measure
>       >   >  speed and the claim makes no sense.
>       > Well, that's the problem.  Knowing that SOMETHING is being
>       > transmitted, and actuallyUSING that method to transmit useful
>       > information, are (quite strangely) two differentthings.  That, also
>       > is the amazing implications of entangled photons.
>       It does sound like the obvious is being missed - so entangled photon
>       paris can be created, and we can know at one end, if the photon at the
>       other end is "read", and this apparently happens at at a minimum of
>       10k.c;
>       Surely, one could simply create a suitably large number of entangled
>       photon pairs, as an array, and then read them, or not read them, at
>       the end you want to "send" information from, and "detect" (so this
>       weird quantum mechanics story goes) those reads at the other end.
>       Read + Not read = 1 bit.
>       What seems to be implied in the stories so far is that the information
>       must be transmitted through changing states of a single entangled
>       photon
>       - which assumption makes no sense at all. There's a purported
>       phenomena, use it!
> 
>              Yep. It either works or not. And if it works you should be able
>              to get some 'macroscopic' result/data transmission (of course
>              the micro/macro divide is just pseudo-scientific, absurd
>              bullshit)
>              I don't know if it works or not, though I notice that Cari
>              posted a source claiming
>              "Everyone agrees that quantum entanglement does not allow
>              information to be transmitted faster that light. "
>              I take that to mean that the authorities don't actually agree,
>              although perhaps the majority says : no.
>              Regardless, if there is something propagates at faster than
>              light speed, then it should be possible to send information
>              using that AND there would be nothing absurd about that,
>              contrary to Jim B's abssurd defense of absurd, pseudo
>              cientific 'interpretations'.
>              http://www.dictionary.com/browse/absurd?s=t
>              "utterly or obviously senseless, illogical, or untrue"
>              It should be self-evident that absurdities have no place in
>              science or even in philosophy.
> 
>       What are we missing here?
> 
>    --
>    You’re not from the Castle, you’re not from the village, you are nothing. Unfortunately, though, you are something, a
>    stranger.

-- 
Free Australia: www.UPMART.org
Please respect the confidentiality of this email as sensibly warranted.




From dal at riseup.net  Fri Aug  5 16:38:12 2016
From: dal at riseup.net (Douglas Lucas)
Date: Fri, 5 Aug 2016 16:38:12 -0700
Subject: Anarchist Bibliography, please? (was Re: Deconstructing an
 Institutional Slander...)
In-Reply-To: <CAG2tMp5VUSFrJJXVXU35VBkY4trmH8K+7yECpnQAvfX7iRF3qQ@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAG2tMp6-KfNr0VgiddoLxHcHw6CzyU=uLJCdCsvo9EsBE8gTeQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAG2tMp5MQaDC5c8cZ4EeMFoc0kmdAp0S+dG8fUc8+jkiP5F5uA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAG2tMp512JL9-6r+6Cgqp5n__Aa49WCPv+UmrKmAT7OXP7xwvg@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAG2tMp5dWWyBcRUmO8EEoUjPZLGnBqBCX-B8mpzKKNsGsGWhUg@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAG2tMp7R2Lo0RN11qkC_iC9-4=2gHzpbcZEOoLtRFkCJ6Cf_KA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAG2tMp70VXbY+0GJs3HApMq71TcBympeLg3QUuDDdHwmC6Cqwg@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAG2tMp4=q0aFUjcS8Gei2J9FqYfQnsWg0E5Vh_OtGjVuJ-_V0Q@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAG2tMp55nML9+v0hnLVfe+OqPsCMUNiB66FR-VjmTn3pkGSTRw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAG2tMp7M3BpOUOcv6fkOYK=cYvYCWmg3nFrL8QSGBF0JPr5pjg@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAG2tMp5A5AxiYHR4JQ-ECFCy80nsa8-xxYw5gs5vMEfHtHKRgg@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAG2tMp4HdMnuXO7K5OvAie1+f1bsU5_iDg-nEcy=PTvJfV+XFA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAG2tMp6sd1r-FwLWd2SmQTQ-JJJpCPyU9hDKKKkew8symGGtJQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAG2tMp5CmWA9rzgwDpe9XDYbOcKooAq15PrDD1UtorcnPZo--Q@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAG2tMp5VUSFrJJXVXU35VBkY4trmH8K+7yECpnQAvfX7iRF3qQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <ee3edcb5-2e4a-afee-c757-315672195a3a@riseup.net>

Hi Cecilia,

The author says it's not [left-wing] anarchism, but rather
self-governance, yet to some people the two are similar or similar
enough for me to post this in response to your query... Heather Marsh's
book Binding Chaos: Systems of Mass Collaboration, free in full, PDF:
https://georgiebc.files.wordpress.com/2013/05/bindingchaos85x11.pdf
other formats: https://georgiebc.wordpress.com/2013/05/24/binding-chaos/

Also, another author, Ursula K. Le Guin, is kinda frustrated with this
1974 novel of hers being picked up by left-wing anarchists, but I'd
highly recommend reading The Dispossessed, available in full for
(pirated) free at The Anarchist Library:
http://theanarchistlibrary.org/library/ for a picture of what it might
be like in practice.

Have fun and overthrow governments and corporations,

Douglas

On 08/04/2016 12:00 AM, Cecilia Tanaka wrote:
> On Jul 29, 2016 10:36 PM, "juan" <juan.g71 at gmail.com
> <mailto:juan.g71 at gmail.com>> wrote:
>>
>>         Are you talking about equality before the law? (which
> logically entails anarchism btw)
> 
> Juan dear,
> 
> Instead arguing with you about vocabulary, real meaning of some words or
> not, limits of some concepts, gender equality, men and women, storks and
> babies, I decided asking for help and avoid a possible gaffe or being
> unfair with you.  :P
> 
> I was thinking about asking you some suggestions of good anarchist
> readings, because I made some searches and  - wow! -  the bibliography
> is really huge.  I need some help to separate the wheat from the shaft,
> please.  Or a guide "Advanced Anarchism for Dummies".  I know only the
> baby steps, sorry.  :(
> 
> I asked Steve some suggestions in private, but it's better to ask
> publicly, so more people can profit the clues.  Oh, you know, he loves
> books, uses cute emoticons and makes oink oink.  He's a good reference
> for me, hahaha!!  ;)
> 
> Tender kisses for all of you!  <3
> 
> Ceci
> 




From juan.g71 at gmail.com  Fri Aug  5 13:29:14 2016
From: juan.g71 at gmail.com (juan)
Date: Fri, 5 Aug 2016 17:29:14 -0300
Subject: Quantum entangled-photon Chinese satellite.
In-Reply-To: <57A4EF5F.5000600@riseup.net>
References: <1603947053.11044988.1470329352392.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com>
 <57a3a57f.0703370a.241d8.c3ea@mx.google.com>
 <1359771938.2091832.1470347891966.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com>
 <57a3c0a1.84bd370a.2e08f.dde4@mx.google.com>
 <953028539.36755.1470353627925.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com>
 <57a44457.4c64370a.22ed0.1e04@mx.google.com>
 <20160805080713.GE1038@sivokote.iziade.m$>
 <2034279837.11486285.1470387532268.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com>
 <20160805115131.GH1038@sivokote.iziade.m$>
 <57A4AC72.6000301@riseup.net> <20160805181424.GV2570@x220-a02>
 <57A4EF5F.5000600@riseup.net>
Message-ID: <57a4f618.44a6370a.38261.bfc0@mx.google.com>

On Fri, 5 Aug 2016 13:56:15 -0600
Mirimir <mirimir at riseup.net> wrote:

> First you create entangled electrons in two distant diamonds
> [separated by 1.5 km in Hensen et al. (2015) and apparently 750 mi in
> the Chinese-Austrian experiment described in the news article]. You
> do that by exchanging photons, which travel at light-speed or less.
> Then you measure the spins of those entangled electrons. And you find
> that the spins are correlated in a way that's predicted by quantum
> mechanics, but would be possible under classical mechanics (aka
> realism) 

	And full stop. You are not talking about physics. You are
	talking about bad philosophy. 

	So, classical mechanics is realism. Fine. And the stuff the
	mainstream calls 'quantum mechanics' is what, then? Looks like
	it's not realism. So it is...bullshit.


> only if the entangled electrons could communicate at greater
> than light-speed.
> 
> So basically, they find that the classical model of reality is fucked.


	lol lol lol





> 
> Here's the abstract from Hensen et al. (2015)
> <https://arxiv.org/abs/1508.05949>:
> 
> > For more than 80 years, the counterintuitive predictions of quantum
> > theory have stimulated debate about the nature of reality. In his
> > seminal work, John Bell proved that no theory of nature that obeys
> > locality and realism can reproduce all the predictions of quantum
> > theory. Bell showed that in any local realist theory the
> > correlations between distant measurements satisfy an inequality
> > and, moreover, that this inequality can be violated according to
> > quantum theory. This provided a recipe for experimental tests of
> > the fundamental principles underlying the laws of nature. In the
> > past decades, numerous ingenious Bell inequality tests have been
> > reported. However, because of experimental limitations, all
> > experiments to date required additional assumptions to obtain a
> > contradiction with local realism, resulting in loopholes. Here we
> > report on a Bell experiment that is free of any such additional
> > assumption and thus directly tests the principles underlying Bell's
> > inequality. We employ an event-ready scheme that enables the
> > generation of high-fidelity entanglement between distant electron
> > spins. Efficient spin readout avoids the fair sampling assumption
> > (detection loophole), while the use of fast random basis
> > selection and readout combined with a spatial separation of 1.3
> > km ensure the required locality conditions. We perform 245
> > trials testing the CHSH-Bell inequality S≤2 and find S=2.42±0.20.
> > A null hypothesis test yields a probability of p=0.039 that a
> > local-realist model for space-like separated sites produces
> > data with a violation at least as large as observed, even when
> > allowing for memory in the devices. This result rules out large
> > classes of local realist theories, and paves the way for
> > implementing device-independent quantum-secure communication
> > and randomness certification. 
> 
> The news article is full of bullshit.
> 
> > China apparently is putting this experiment in space - are they
> > winning a game on prediction of one particular bit with > 75%
> > probability, and if so, can they run that game numerous times to
> > get that probability close to 100%, and if so, can the random
> > inputs to each side be made not random so that the result of the
> > game is transmission of information?
> > 
> > I cannot begin to answer any of these questions sorry...
> 
> As I understand it, they're just pushing the separation to 750 miles.
> We're still a long way from transmitting useful data. And recall that
> creating entanglement requires synchronization at light-speed or less.
> 
> >> Me, I like the many worlds interpretation. But it's just an
> >> interpretation. What matters is the math.
> > 
> > That sounds much more interesting than the implications of 'dull'
> > said to be arising from qubits :)
> > 
> > The hope is that since some say the experiment is pretty dull to
> > begin with, then perhaps there is a soul alive who could answer the
> > above questions... we can only hope.
> 
> In saying that it's dull, they're pointing out that what matters is
> the math of quantum mechanics. It's just math. Equations. There's no
> mental model, no story in words about how reality works. The
> interpretations are just stories.





From juan.g71 at gmail.com  Fri Aug  5 14:10:03 2016
From: juan.g71 at gmail.com (juan)
Date: Fri, 5 Aug 2016 18:10:03 -0300
Subject: FM Corporations/ businesses/ entitities
In-Reply-To: <CAHKdp-nG6UEVEn8CO0ENoZVm3nh1HGsZ+cKkx-SrbJeE2jr9TA@mail.gmail.com>
References: <20160730013607.GB17721@x220-a02>
 <04bfae7a-2de4-63e7-3adb-9bd54001d274@pilobilus.net>
 <20160803092946.GE2616@x220-a02>
 <CAHKdp-nG6UEVEn8CO0ENoZVm3nh1HGsZ+cKkx-SrbJeE2jr9TA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <57a4ffa8.0220ed0a.4d185.cc61@mx.google.com>



Sean Lynch wrote:

> > On Wed, 3 Aug 2016 10:51:30 +1000
> > Zenaan Harkness <zen at freedbms.net> wrote:
> >
> >
> > > > even if those institutions are entirely
> > > > voluntary. I can imagine sets of institutions that would allow
> > > > corporations in a similar sense to how they exist now, i.e.
> > > > limited liability and some form of "personhood."
> > >
> > > 'limited liability' means that the owners of the company cannot be
> > > personally sued.
> >
> >
> >         Yes. And the idea that a libertarian society or a truly free
> >         market is going to copy mercantilistic devices from the
> > 'ancien regime' is unwarranted.
> >
> 
> I'm not sure it's more unwarranted than the assumption that
> mercantilistic devices are always the wrong ones.


	Are we talking about the same thing? Mercantilism is the system
	in which business and government cooperate to loot consumers.

	From a libertarian point of view mercantilism (or corporatism if
	you will) is wrong, 'by definition'. 


> 
> 
> >         I'm not surprised that Sean said that though, since Sean
> > has a rather 'naive' view about current fascist 'institutions' like
> >         apple, facebook, uber, the tor project and other jewels from
> >         the establishment's crown.
> >
> 
> My view has been slowly shifting toward a more left anarchist one.
> But it can only go so far before I have to quit my job at Google to
> avoid feeling like too much of a hypocrite.

	Haha - thanks for the disclaimer =P






From zen at freedbms.net  Fri Aug  5 02:07:24 2016
From: zen at freedbms.net (Zenaan Harkness)
Date: Fri, 5 Aug 2016 19:07:24 +1000
Subject: Quantum entangled-photon Chinese satellite.
In-Reply-To: <1071831470383716@web12h.yandex.ru>
References: <255450741.10726589.1470277325532.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com>
 <687871470314039@web15g.yandex.ru>
 <1603947053.11044988.1470329352392.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com>
 <57a3a57f.0703370a.241d8.c3ea@mx.google.com>
 <1359771938.2091832.1470347891966.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com>
 <20160805012907.GL2570@x220-a02>
 <57a3f1d9.012fed0a.814f7.fd06@mx.google.com>
 <61801470374359@web4g.yandex.ru> <20160805061840.GP2570@x220-a02>
 <1071831470383716@web12h.yandex.ru>
Message-ID: <20160805090724.GQ2570@x220-a02>

>    9:45 AM, August 5, 2016, Zenaan Harkness <zen at freedbms.net>:
> 
>      On Fri, Aug 05, 2016 at 07:19:19AM +0200, Bastiani Fortress wrote:
> 
>          As i can remember, the point was when two particles are entangled,
>          they bear the same quantum state, and they simultaneously shift
>          their states önce either of them is "observed".
> 
>      And if you 'observe' at the other side, you can determine that the first
>      side was already observed. Apparently.
>      Which is 1 bit (perhaps 1/2 a bit) of data transfer.
>      If this is not the case, then the descriptions on this list so far are
>      ambiguous to the point of not being interpretable... which would be
>      unfortunate.
>      I think someone's gonna have to try explaining again..

On Fri, Aug 05, 2016 at 09:55:16AM +0200, Bastiani Fortress wrote:
>    A reminder: this is based on what i've read years ago, with the
>    brains of a high schooler...  You don't know the initial state.
>    When you make an observation at the two sides, you *magically* see
>    that two particles are at the same state.

A qwantoom of information, shall we call that?

Point is, one of the purported benefits to crypto is that if one side
snoops (makes that all important 'observation') - or in fact any
untoward interloper goes on a 'snooping' spree (i.e. snoops at least
once), then the other side can determine that the entangled quantum
state(s) has/have been snooped,

as distinct from 'having not been snooped/ observed'.

This sounds suspiciously, distinctly, kinda may be just like a sorta you
know should probably be, "bit" of information (since the first side
created the entangled photon(s), and when that first side later does
his own observation, he can determine if the remote side has had an
observation "done" on it or not.

(Given we now speak Kib, Gib, KiB, GiB etc, should we also speak of
"bib"s instead of "bit"s? You know, "a bib is either 0 or 1, but in base
2 instead of in base 10. That would make a world of difference......)


By simple logic, we have transmission of some information.


Now I say, just like the speed of sound used to be considered "the
absolute upper physical limit of the speed of travel", I suspect that
soon the God almighty "physics" is going to be speaking more commonly
("tis broadly accepted that...") of some sub space, hyper space, super
mega space or twisted entagled N-dimensional space, through which this
"information" travels, and that "of course" and "we really should have
known all along" and all the rest of the "I'm so firetrucking brilliant
[[in hindsight]]" bullshit artist crowd...


In the meantime, either one side (does not have to be "either side") is
either able to determine that the other side made an observation of the
entangled photon,


or not.



Let's not keep going around in circles, and await someone who has
devoted some recent brain photonic activity to the problem, to such an
extent that they be able to explain to us mere mortals WTF we are
"missing", if indeed we are - I'm hopeful yet that we're not, and a
whole bunch of 'very intellineffectuals' start spouting on about "how
great FTL communication is and how obvious it was in hindsight to array
a series of entangled photons to be the entanglede photonic baseband
inteestellar FTL comms platform, like duh!"


Alas, I am confident I am nowhere near as brainy as some other not so
dumn trucks.


> Quantum stuff don't come
>    in absolutes, you're thinking in terms of classical mechanics. You
>    don't know if the cat is dead unless you open the box and
>    "observe". Unless you do it, you assume a collection of possibility
>    of states.






From jdb10987 at yahoo.com  Fri Aug  5 12:19:52 2016
From: jdb10987 at yahoo.com (jim bell)
Date: Fri, 5 Aug 2016 19:19:52 +0000 (UTC)
Subject: Judge Napolitano says NSA hacked the DNC.   (Video Clip)
References: <990039312.12503209.1470424792628.JavaMail.yahoo.ref@mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <990039312.12503209.1470424792628.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com>

https://www.yahoo.com/news/napolitano-why-nsa-hack-dnc-041422395.html     (Video clip).




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From zen at freedbms.net  Fri Aug  5 02:21:03 2016
From: zen at freedbms.net (Zenaan Harkness)
Date: Fri, 5 Aug 2016 19:21:03 +1000
Subject: Quantum entangled-photon Chinese satellite.
In-Reply-To: <20160805080713.GE1038@sivokote.iziade.m$>
References: <255450741.10726589.1470277325532.JavaMail.yahoo.ref@mail.yahoo.com>
 <255450741.10726589.1470277325532.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com>
 <687871470314039@web15g.yandex.ru>
 <1603947053.11044988.1470329352392.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com>
 <57a3a57f.0703370a.241d8.c3ea@mx.google.com>
 <1359771938.2091832.1470347891966.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com>
 <57a3c0a1.84bd370a.2e08f.dde4@mx.google.com>
 <953028539.36755.1470353627925.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com>
 <57a44457.4c64370a.22ed0.1e04@mx.google.com>
 <20160805080713.GE1038@sivokote.iziade.m$>
Message-ID: <20160805092103.GR2570@x220-a02>

On Fri, Aug 05, 2016 at 11:07:13AM +0300, Georgi Guninski wrote:
> On Fri, Aug 05, 2016 at 04:50:37AM -0300, juan wrote:
> > On Thu, 4 Aug 2016 23:33:47 +0000 (UTC)
> > jim bell <jdb10987 at yahoo.com> wrote:
> > 
> > 
> > > If I see a horse running in the prairie, and yet I cannot
> > > capture him, Icannot use him to travel at horse-speed rather than
> > > man-speed.
> > 
> > 	OK, I understand that. But to use your analogy, what's being
> > 	discussed here is not how the horse could eventually be used,
> > 	but whether the horse exists at all. 
> > 
> > 	Is the horse just some mathematical artifact in some mystical
> > 	theory, or is there unambiguous experimental data associated
> > 	with it?
> > 
> >
> 
> Disclaimer: I am lamer in physics.
> 
> I think the analogy shows that FTL (superluminal) speed exist and is
> experimentally observed, this doesn't contradict relativity.
> 
> What contradicts relativity is _communication_ or clock synchronization
> faster than light.

I'll accept the clock synchronisation not being possible FTL, but not
the communication part.

The reason being, that the remote side makes an observation, and
although the entangled photon state change shall be observable at a FTL
time-delta into the future for the other side, the other side cannot
know when to make his observation in order to "read" the bit.

And, the side receiving information can only synchronize according to
the most accurate clock he has at his disposal - which runs at most, at
the speed of light, so he cannot make more than some very large number
of observations --below-- the speed of light, and so i.e. his
observational capacity exists as -slower- than the speed of light.

Thus the basic limitation.


Firstly, I suspect the Chinese (and Google who bought the bullshit on
that "quantum computer" company a year ago) have jumped the gun, as we
are missing at least a second superluminal communication primitive. This
point should be obvious.


A full (e.g. FTL) comms circuit requires a minimum of two primitives,
and at the moment all the quantum boffins have is a single possibly FTL
"primitive" (that is, the purported capacity to read one half of an
entangled photon).

And this, with being not able to determine that you changed the state
(not sure on this assumption), and being not able to determine the
state; "at your end".

"At the other end" however, apparently, the corresponding read action
can be done (but without synchronization yet, we don't have such a
primitive, yet), to determine IF the first side has already performed
its own read/observation action, up to and including the same point in
time as we are doing our read/observation - i.e. "now".

But not into the future (presumably, hey wtf do I know).


So, some yet to be properly modelled substrata of the entangled quantum
universe apparently provides for 'instantaneous' communication, given
the following caveats:
 1 - the time synchronization limits of the two sides
 2 - the source/originating 'observation action' must happen no later
     than the time that the destination/receiving side makes their
     observation (should be obvious)


Physics vs engineering? As in, the physicists are so focussed on the
single qubit, they forgot to state "the obvious"?


I suspect that the physicists and quantum mathematicians may have simply
failed to state the limitations of their new toy in a simple way. May be
they did, I have not read any literature and am dependent on this thread
and possibly a pop sci article some years back.


> IIRC if you point powerful projector at the Moon and move it slightly,
> this light on Moon will move FTL at least from your point of view. 
> Jim's horse was something like this.
> 
> Check wikipedia for faster than light for more examples like this.
>  	




From cecilia.tanaka at gmail.com  Fri Aug  5 15:28:39 2016
From: cecilia.tanaka at gmail.com (Cecilia Tanaka)
Date: Fri, 5 Aug 2016 19:28:39 -0300
Subject: Anarchist Bibliography, please? (was Re: Deconstructing an
 Institutional Slander...)
In-Reply-To: <CAG2tMp4P3629m6cZfHuRcKGPNrwcctns73bJ_RxsZ1jsuwQ=Tg@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAG2tMp6-KfNr0VgiddoLxHcHw6CzyU=uLJCdCsvo9EsBE8gTeQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAG2tMp5dWWyBcRUmO8EEoUjPZLGnBqBCX-B8mpzKKNsGsGWhUg@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAG2tMp7R2Lo0RN11qkC_iC9-4=2gHzpbcZEOoLtRFkCJ6Cf_KA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAG2tMp70VXbY+0GJs3HApMq71TcBympeLg3QUuDDdHwmC6Cqwg@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAG2tMp4=q0aFUjcS8Gei2J9FqYfQnsWg0E5Vh_OtGjVuJ-_V0Q@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAG2tMp55nML9+v0hnLVfe+OqPsCMUNiB66FR-VjmTn3pkGSTRw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAG2tMp7M3BpOUOcv6fkOYK=cYvYCWmg3nFrL8QSGBF0JPr5pjg@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAG2tMp5A5AxiYHR4JQ-ECFCy80nsa8-xxYw5gs5vMEfHtHKRgg@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAG2tMp4HdMnuXO7K5OvAie1+f1bsU5_iDg-nEcy=PTvJfV+XFA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAG2tMp6sd1r-FwLWd2SmQTQ-JJJpCPyU9hDKKKkew8symGGtJQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAG2tMp5CmWA9rzgwDpe9XDYbOcKooAq15PrDD1UtorcnPZo--Q@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAG2tMp5VUSFrJJXVXU35VBkY4trmH8K+7yECpnQAvfX7iRF3qQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <8f115fae-5655-ca28-0250-dab17c397cbe@pilobilus.net>
 <33853580.4670357.1470346666605.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com>
 <830025cc-6289-baee-b864-1de7858cf046@mail.com>
 <CAGRDzQUgxBfT9V_cAejkFGt8u6XGq+oCsyh7ZBdBB15W3Rmfzg@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAG2tMp4P3629m6cZfHuRcKGPNrwcctns73bJ_RxsZ1jsuwQ=Tg@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAG2tMp7aHa-dcP8fy7rKYZki=ZL48VuWtgM3s51zybceME4qLw@mail.gmail.com>

Wow, lots of lovely references!!!  Thank you with all my heart!!!  (*-*)
<3  <3  <3

Tender kisses and warm hugs!!!
Much love and deep gratitude from Brazil!!!  <3

Ceci  (づ• - •)づ♥
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From zen at freedbms.net  Fri Aug  5 02:38:03 2016
From: zen at freedbms.net (Zenaan Harkness)
Date: Fri, 5 Aug 2016 19:38:03 +1000
Subject: Quantum entangled-photon Chinese satellite.
In-Reply-To: <66033484.11995265.1470384819262.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com>
References: <255450741.10726589.1470277325532.JavaMail.yahoo.ref@mail.yahoo.com>
 <255450741.10726589.1470277325532.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com>
 <687871470314039@web15g.yandex.ru>
 <1603947053.11044988.1470329352392.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com>
 <57a3a57f.0703370a.241d8.c3ea@mx.google.com>
 <1359771938.2091832.1470347891966.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com>
 <20160805012907.GL2570@x220-a02>
 <57a3f1d9.012fed0a.814f7.fd06@mx.google.com>
 <66033484.11995265.1470384819262.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <20160805093803.GS2570@x220-a02>

On Fri, Aug 05, 2016 at 08:13:39AM +0000, jim bell wrote:
> 
> 
>  From: juan <juan.g71 at gmail.com>
> On Fri, 5 Aug 2016 11:29:07 +1000
> Zenaan Harkness <zen at freedbms.net> wrote:
> 
> >> It does sound like the obvious is being missed - so entangled photon
> >> paris can be created, and we can know at one end, if the photon at the
> >> other end is "read",

I believe this statement was quite ambiguous, and should have been
written by my ever so humble self as follows:

   -  so entangled photon pairs can be created, and we can know at one
      end, if the photon at the other end has been "read"

note the "has been" replacing "is"!  With, of course, "has been" meaning
"happened at a time up to and including --now--".


> >> and this apparently happens at at a minimum of
> >> 10k.c;
> > 
> >> Surely, one could simply create a suitably large number of entangled
> >> photon pairs, as an array, and then read them, or not read them, at
> >> the end you want to "send" information from, and "detect" (so this
> >> weird quantum mechanics story goes) those reads at the other end.
>
> I can, but don't call me Shirley.
>
> >> Read + Not read = 1 bit.
> > >What seems to be implied in the stories so far is that the information
> > >must be transmitted through changing states of a single entangled
> >> photon
> >> - which assumption makes no sense at all. There's a purported
> >> phenomena, use it!
> 
> >    Yep. It either works or not. And if it works you should be able
> >   to get some 'macroscopic' result/data transmission (of course
> >    the micro/macro divide is just pseudo-scientific, absurd
> >    bullshit)
> 
> I thought of an interesting thought-experiment that may clarify the
> situation.It's new, and doesn't precisely follow quantum, but here
> goes:
>
> Suppose you have two points in space,  for concreteness 1 light-year
> apart.There is a Star-trek type transporter, one pad at each location.
>  But it canonly transport information, not matter.

> Place a data file on the first pad, press the button, and it will be
> virtuallyinstantly sent to the second pad, 1 l.y. away.  But the
> 'gotcha' is that itwon't arrive in plaintext:  It will be encrypted.
>  It can still be read as seemingly random, encrypted bits, and there
> are crc's, checksums,'fire codes', and other verifications that the
> whole file arrived successfully.

> The first (originating) transporter also generates a key, which can be
> usedto decrypt the file.  Problem is, it can only be sent by laser,
> and thus at 'c'.Send the file, and it appears virtually instantly at
> the far end.  But its actualunencrypted contents cannot be read in
> plaintext.  The data packet mustbe placed on the shelf, and after one
> year the photon-beam containing thedecrypt code packet arrives.  
> (Possibly with the addition of a copy of the original message, for
> additional certainty that they got the original message.).

> They apply the decrypt key to the packet which arrived one year
> before.The decrypt works, and they discover that the message is
> identical to theone sent by laser one year previous, and was just
> received a moment before.

Cute concept :)

Possibly a good analogy, but I ain't Schroedinghy, so dunno how
analogous it is :)


> Wouldn't it be possible to argue that the data MUST have travelled at
> 10,000+'c'?

Absolutely, in this example case, but I have no idea if your idea is
suitably analogous or not sorry.


> If it hadn't, how could the values of data on the
> printout have been determined'instantly'?

> Question:  At what rate did that "instantaneous" data transfer occur?

If it is actually instantaneous, then the rate is infinite, in the
dimensions in which we make our observations.

If a second primitive is ever theorized and later experimentally shown
to exist, then I am confident we shall see a flurry of mathematical
modelling and comparison and elimination, and something "conclusive" and
"well duh" paraded around.


>  Well,it sure looks like it was indeed "instantaneous".  The original
> packet arrived,it was placed on the shelf in seconds.  But, the

Your experiment shows possibly that we simply do not understand either
the entangled experiment, or why it cannot be used to transmit
information "simultaneously", since synchronization can indeed happen in
wall clock time, as long as the two ends are far enough apart - e.g. 1
light year, or 1 light minute apart.


> information within it wasn'tactually readable for one year, until the
> decrypt key arrived.  Can we say thatthis information arrived after
> one year, and thus at an effective speed of 'c'?  If it is the former,
> somehow the idea that information can't be transmitted at fasterthan
> 'c' is invalid.  If it's the latter, this appears to confirm that
> limit.

> Which is it?

> You said:  "Yep. It either works or not."

> The 'gotcha' is that whether it "works" or not is dependent on your
> definition of the word, 'works'.

No, the statement is: either the remote side can determine that I have
made an observation or not - this is a basic premise, which is either
true or not.

If it's not true, we do not understand this new toy called quantum
entanglement, and therefore cannot reason about the problems nor
theorize as to why it cannot be used for information transmission.


>  Does it seem to transmit the data
> virtually instantly?  Yes.  Is that information available immediately?
>  No.

Not in your hypothetical.


> It takes a year to learn the contentof that encrypted file.

> Is the limit of 'c' violated?   I don't know.  What do you think?

It certainly would be - although you cannot verify nor decrypt the
transmission for 1 year, you can prove the transmission actually
happened 1 year ago.


We seem to be missing some vital part of the problem, I guess...




From zen at freedbms.net  Fri Aug  5 03:00:33 2016
From: zen at freedbms.net (Zenaan Harkness)
Date: Fri, 5 Aug 2016 20:00:33 +1000
Subject: [OT] What is the "imaginary mass" in a Tachyonic field?
In-Reply-To: <20160805091710.GG1038@sivokote.iziade.m$>
References: <20160805091710.GG1038@sivokote.iziade.m$>
Message-ID: <20160805100033.GT2570@x220-a02>

On Fri, Aug 05, 2016 at 12:17:10PM +0300, Georgi Guninski wrote:
> This confuses me:
> https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Tachyonic_field&oldid=730595004
> | A tachyonic field, or simply tachyon, is a quantum field with an imaginary mass.
> 
> "imaginary" links to imaginary number, using i^2= -1.
> 
> 
> So far, as I read it, this means the mass can be say 1i
> grams.

Wow. That's very cool.

But they can't detect them.

But they must exist?

If so, that's really wild. Sounds like physicist are on some serious
psycho visual stimulants.


> Later comes the confusion, wiki explains "imaginary" as real 
> (in the math sense).
> 
> | The "imaginary mass" really means that the system becomes unstable.

Sounds like a different meaning for the term 'imaginary'... and that
Wikipedia may need to be updated to reflect this imaginary fact.


> IIRC relativity has formulas with factors of the form
> sqrt(1-v^2/c^2) which go imaginary when v>c and without
> doubt scientists know this.
> 
> Someone knows what "imaginary" means in this context?
> 
> AFAICT Tachyonic fields exist unconditionally.


You know, soon we'll be tapping subspace with polymorphic entangled
photonic array DNA implants into the 98% junk or "non coding" pairs, and
then they'll be telling us our DNA was actually better all along and
just requires a few histone induced nucleotide activations.

After all, DNA stores information so perhaps twins have a number of
entangled photon pairs shared between their medalla strands which allow
them to each observe the other simultaneously, but only when the other
is also observing...




From carimachet at gmail.com  Fri Aug  5 13:08:26 2016
From: carimachet at gmail.com (Cari Machet)
Date: Fri, 5 Aug 2016 23:08:26 +0300
Subject: Anarchist Bibliography, please? (was Re: Deconstructing an
 Institutional Slander...)
In-Reply-To: <830025cc-6289-baee-b864-1de7858cf046@mail.com>
References: <CAG2tMp6-KfNr0VgiddoLxHcHw6CzyU=uLJCdCsvo9EsBE8gTeQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAG2tMp5dWWyBcRUmO8EEoUjPZLGnBqBCX-B8mpzKKNsGsGWhUg@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAG2tMp7R2Lo0RN11qkC_iC9-4=2gHzpbcZEOoLtRFkCJ6Cf_KA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAG2tMp70VXbY+0GJs3HApMq71TcBympeLg3QUuDDdHwmC6Cqwg@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAG2tMp4=q0aFUjcS8Gei2J9FqYfQnsWg0E5Vh_OtGjVuJ-_V0Q@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAG2tMp55nML9+v0hnLVfe+OqPsCMUNiB66FR-VjmTn3pkGSTRw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAG2tMp7M3BpOUOcv6fkOYK=cYvYCWmg3nFrL8QSGBF0JPr5pjg@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAG2tMp5A5AxiYHR4JQ-ECFCy80nsa8-xxYw5gs5vMEfHtHKRgg@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAG2tMp4HdMnuXO7K5OvAie1+f1bsU5_iDg-nEcy=PTvJfV+XFA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAG2tMp6sd1r-FwLWd2SmQTQ-JJJpCPyU9hDKKKkew8symGGtJQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAG2tMp5CmWA9rzgwDpe9XDYbOcKooAq15PrDD1UtorcnPZo--Q@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAG2tMp5VUSFrJJXVXU35VBkY4trmH8K+7yECpnQAvfX7iRF3qQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <8f115fae-5655-ca28-0250-dab17c397cbe@pilobilus.net>
 <33853580.4670357.1470346666605.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com>
 <830025cc-6289-baee-b864-1de7858cf046@mail.com>
Message-ID: <CAGRDzQUgxBfT9V_cAejkFGt8u6XGq+oCsyh7ZBdBB15W3Rmfzg@mail.gmail.com>

translating anarchy

http://www.pucsp.br/ecopolitica/documentos/penalizacao_a_ceu_aberto/docs/livro-mark-bray-translating-anarchy-2013.pdf

On Fri, Aug 5, 2016 at 3:37 AM, No <nonomos at mail.com> wrote:

> Stirner has opened my eyes on quite a few levels, you could categorize his
> book under individualistic anarchism (though categories seem irrelevant).
>
> https://theanarchistlibrary.org/library/max-stirner-the-ego-and-his-own
> This text has helped me and some others, trying to not drift off in
> endless cynicism and nihilism:
>
> https://theanarchistlibrary.org/library/peter-lamborn-
> wilson-the-new-nihilism
>
>
> On 08/04/2016 11:37 PM, jim bell wrote:
>
>
>
> *From:* Steve Kinney <admin at pilobilus.net> <admin at pilobilus.net>
>
> On 08/04/2016 03:00 AM, Cecilia Tanaka wrote:
> >> I asked Steve some suggestions in private, but it's better to ask
> >> publicly, so more people can profit the clues.  Oh, you know, he
> >> loves books, uses cute emoticons and makes oink oink.  He's a good
> >> reference for me, hahaha!!  ;)
>
> >When dredging the Internet for information, I am sure you won't have
> >much trouble picking out the State sponsored anarchist literature and
> >pseudo-radical propaganda fronts:
>
>
> I hope people will forgive me for tooting my own horn.  I was a minarchist
> Libertarian in 1994,
> not an anarchist Libertarian.  But it wasn't because I somehow wanted to
> keep around some
> minimal government.  Rather, it was because I couldn't figure out a
> logically-consistent method'
> to entirely get rid of those last vestiges of government.  Lacking such an
> plausible method,
> I chose the intellectually-honest route of accepting (at the time) that
> some residual government
> would be necessary.
>
> While not specifically aware of David Friedman's (son of famous economist
> Milton Friedman)
> "Hard Problem"  http://econlog.econlib.org/archives/2009/04/will_david_
> frie.html   , from his
> book, "The Machinery of Freedom" (1973; revised in 1989; again 2014),  I
> was effectively
> aware of the  same barrier, and like Friedman, I could not see any
> solution.  Anarchy, I
> concluded, was impractical, and unachievable.
>
> It's a good thing that I wasn't aware of Friedman's "Hard Problem", or the
> idea it was "hard".
> In January 1995 I because to contemplate the idea that turned into my
> "Assassination
> Politics" essay.   https://cryptome.org/ap.htm
>
>   I wasn't intending to solve that problem:  Rather, I was trying to
> figure out how
> an otherwise-powerless public could defend itself from bad acts, mostly
> from government
> employees.  I realized that to combine the contributions of anonymous
> individuals,  allows
> that public can deter and prevent those bad acts.  I further realized that
> this system would
> be extremely economical, allowing (for instance) the region known as
> "America" to defend
> itself, not merely from external threats, but also internal crime,
> probably for a total cost of
> under $1 billion per year, far less than the $600 billion in defense
> spending currently done.
>
> A simplistic, initial analysis (which I initially assumed, even before I
> wrote the first part of the
> AP essay) was that AP would simply fix government.  But the ultimate "fix"
> was actually far
> more powerful than I'd initially realized, not merely fixing governments,
> but destroying all
> governments, and thus protecting an anarchist or minarchist region from
> threatening
> neighbors.
>
> Put simply, I solved David Friedman's "Hard Problem".  I haven't yet seen
> the 2014 revision
> of his book, Machinery of Freedom, to see if he has acknowledged this yet.
>    I think it would
> be extraordinarily strange if he doesn't do so:  After all, ostensibly we
> are on the same side
> of this matter.  He advocates a zero-government solution:  Why wouldn't he
> cite a proof
> that a zero-government solution is actually possible, contrary to his
> apparent previous
> opinion?
>
> <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Machinery_of_Freedom>
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Machinery_of_Freedom
>
> But in effect, I think I was quite correct, pre-1995, for me  to believe
> that anarchy was
>  impractical.   I don't know how people who labelled themselves as
> 'anarchists'  resolved
> the apparent contradiction.  Were they aware that anarchy wasn't stable?
>  (At least not
> absent my 1995 invention, AP).   Most likely I think they were simply
> unaware that anarchy
> wasn't going to be stable.  Or, perhaps they assumed that then-future
> events would somehow
> solve the problem.  As, ultimately, they did, but it didn't have to be
> that way.  I, virtually by
> accident, solved that problem.  But things could have been very different.
>
>                 Jim Bell
>
>
>
>
>


-- 
Cari Machet
NYC 646-436-7795
carimachet at gmail.com
AIM carismachet
Syria +963-099 277 3243
Amman +962 077 636 9407
Berlin +49 152 11779219
Reykjavik +354 894 8650
Twitter: @carimachet <https://twitter.com/carimachet>

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From admin at pilobilus.net  Fri Aug  5 22:08:55 2016
From: admin at pilobilus.net (Steve Kinney)
Date: Sat, 6 Aug 2016 01:08:55 -0400
Subject: Anarchist Bibliography, please? (was Re: Deconstructing an
 Institutional Slander...)
In-Reply-To: <ee3edcb5-2e4a-afee-c757-315672195a3a@riseup.net>
References: <CAG2tMp6-KfNr0VgiddoLxHcHw6CzyU=uLJCdCsvo9EsBE8gTeQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAG2tMp512JL9-6r+6Cgqp5n__Aa49WCPv+UmrKmAT7OXP7xwvg@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAG2tMp5dWWyBcRUmO8EEoUjPZLGnBqBCX-B8mpzKKNsGsGWhUg@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAG2tMp7R2Lo0RN11qkC_iC9-4=2gHzpbcZEOoLtRFkCJ6Cf_KA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAG2tMp70VXbY+0GJs3HApMq71TcBympeLg3QUuDDdHwmC6Cqwg@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAG2tMp4=q0aFUjcS8Gei2J9FqYfQnsWg0E5Vh_OtGjVuJ-_V0Q@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAG2tMp55nML9+v0hnLVfe+OqPsCMUNiB66FR-VjmTn3pkGSTRw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAG2tMp7M3BpOUOcv6fkOYK=cYvYCWmg3nFrL8QSGBF0JPr5pjg@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAG2tMp5A5AxiYHR4JQ-ECFCy80nsa8-xxYw5gs5vMEfHtHKRgg@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAG2tMp4HdMnuXO7K5OvAie1+f1bsU5_iDg-nEcy=PTvJfV+XFA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAG2tMp6sd1r-FwLWd2SmQTQ-JJJpCPyU9hDKKKkew8symGGtJQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAG2tMp5CmWA9rzgwDpe9XDYbOcKooAq15PrDD1UtorcnPZo--Q@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAG2tMp5VUSFrJJXVXU35VBkY4trmH8K+7yECpnQAvfX7iRF3qQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <ee3edcb5-2e4a-afee-c757-315672195a3a@riseup.net>
Message-ID: <6ca7e336-02af-d5b9-cb09-51fb250e2fc6@pilobilus.net>

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Hash: SHA1

On 08/05/2016 07:38 PM, Douglas Lucas wrote:

> Also, another author, Ursula K. Le Guin, is kinda frustrated with
> this 1974 novel of hers being picked up by left-wing anarchists,
> but I'd highly recommend reading The Dispossessed, available in
> full for (pirated) free at The Anarchist Library: 
> http://theanarchistlibrary.org/library/ for a picture of what it
> might be like in practice.
> 
> Have fun and overthrow governments and corporations,
> 
> Douglas

Woah, blink and it's gone: But we have our little ways:

https://web.archive.org/web/20160722020742/http://theanarchistlibrary.or
g/library/ursula-k-le-guin-the-dispossessed

PDF link works.

Have fun but be careful not to get broken on that lathe...

;o)



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From peter at m-o-o-t.org  Fri Aug  5 17:10:36 2016
From: peter at m-o-o-t.org (Peter Fairbrother)
Date: Sat, 6 Aug 2016 01:10:36 +0100
Subject: Quantum entangled-photon Chinese satellite.
In-Reply-To: <687871470314039@web15g.yandex.ru>
References: <255450741.10726589.1470277325532.JavaMail.yahoo.ref@mail.yahoo.com>
 <255450741.10726589.1470277325532.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com>
 <687871470314039@web15g.yandex.ru>
Message-ID: <57A52AFC.40909@m-o-o-t.org>

On 04/08/16 13:33, Bastiani Fortress wrote:
> Quantum entanglement does not provide information passing faster than
> light, afaik. Either i misunderstood the news, or it's being falsely
> advertised.

>     [quote]
>     China to launch unbreakable quantum spy satellite - and it could one
>     day lead to a megascope the size of Earth that could 'spot a license
>     plate on Jupiter's moons'Satellite produces entangled photon pairs
>     which form an encryption key

It doesn't pass info faster than light, it "generates keys" using a 
slower-than-light side channel to agree which of two possible 
perpendicular orientations to test.


You can only test one orientation per photon, that's the physics part, 
testing in one orientation will destroy all information about its 
polarisation in a perpendicular orientation - and unless both ends test 
the same orientations for an entangled pair the test results will not 
match by spooky action at a distance.

One way to do this, though not very secure, is for both ends to preagree 
which orientations to test.

They can get the same information at the same, super-relativistic time, 
but it's a bit like DH, the information they get is random, no classical 
information is actually passed between ends.

Another method is for both sides to test orientations at random, then 
choosing pairs for which both ends chose to test the same orientation. 
This requires an authenticated, but not necessarily secret, side channel 
between ends.



Unless implemented vary carefully, either version can be mitm'd easily 
[fsvo "easily"] enough.

The first method can be mitm'd by creating photons with known (but not 
entangled) polarisations in pairs, if you know the prearranged 
orientations to create the photons in.


The second method is a little trickier to mitm, but the no-cloning 
theorem, which states you can't clone an arbitrary unknown quantum 
state, doesn't actually say that you can't clone a photon without 
testing it's polarisation in one orientation - it says that, for linear 
polarisation of entangled photons, you can't do it more than 2/3 of the 
time.

Then Mallory will get it right by chance half the time when cloning 
fails, so overall if Mallory tries to clone photons he will get the 
right result 5 times out of six.

This would roughly mean that the detectors would have to work correctly 
better than 5/6 of the time to prevent mitm - and single photon 
detectors which can do that, especially over orbital distances,  are 
like hen's teeth.

There are statistical methods which can work with less efficient 
detectors, but then the data rate drops to very slow indeed


-- Peter Fairbrother




From carimachet at gmail.com  Fri Aug  5 17:38:44 2016
From: carimachet at gmail.com (Cari Machet)
Date: Sat, 6 Aug 2016 03:38:44 +0300
Subject: Anarchist Bibliography, please? (was Re: Deconstructing an
 Institutional Slander...)
In-Reply-To: <33853580.4670357.1470346666605.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com>
References: <CAG2tMp6-KfNr0VgiddoLxHcHw6CzyU=uLJCdCsvo9EsBE8gTeQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAG2tMp5MQaDC5c8cZ4EeMFoc0kmdAp0S+dG8fUc8+jkiP5F5uA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAG2tMp512JL9-6r+6Cgqp5n__Aa49WCPv+UmrKmAT7OXP7xwvg@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAG2tMp5dWWyBcRUmO8EEoUjPZLGnBqBCX-B8mpzKKNsGsGWhUg@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAG2tMp7R2Lo0RN11qkC_iC9-4=2gHzpbcZEOoLtRFkCJ6Cf_KA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAG2tMp70VXbY+0GJs3HApMq71TcBympeLg3QUuDDdHwmC6Cqwg@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAG2tMp4=q0aFUjcS8Gei2J9FqYfQnsWg0E5Vh_OtGjVuJ-_V0Q@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAG2tMp55nML9+v0hnLVfe+OqPsCMUNiB66FR-VjmTn3pkGSTRw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAG2tMp7M3BpOUOcv6fkOYK=cYvYCWmg3nFrL8QSGBF0JPr5pjg@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAG2tMp5A5AxiYHR4JQ-ECFCy80nsa8-xxYw5gs5vMEfHtHKRgg@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAG2tMp4HdMnuXO7K5OvAie1+f1bsU5_iDg-nEcy=PTvJfV+XFA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAG2tMp6sd1r-FwLWd2SmQTQ-JJJpCPyU9hDKKKkew8symGGtJQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAG2tMp5CmWA9rzgwDpe9XDYbOcKooAq15PrDD1UtorcnPZo--Q@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAG2tMp5VUSFrJJXVXU35VBkY4trmH8K+7yECpnQAvfX7iRF3qQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <8f115fae-5655-ca28-0250-dab17c397cbe@pilobilus.net>
 <33853580.4670357.1470346666605.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <CAGRDzQXbZtxFK5OCTVusghvGQE4q8+4BjizCVcpKBTWOLZrFnQ@mail.gmail.com>

there are numerous types of anarchy

one has direct democracy > horizontality as a formulation like in
switzerland

its a process (like life is a build so is the anarchic form) and the
hierarchical forms of government are eroded by its functionality

we made formulations for assemblies and developed new methods within
different geographies for structure > new structure for decision making >
participatory

there are many actions within the erosion process one is participatory
budgeting >>>> most sectors can have actions in this way



On Fri, Aug 5, 2016 at 12:37 AM, jim bell <jdb10987 at yahoo.com> wrote:

>
>
> *From:* Steve Kinney <admin at pilobilus.net>
>
> On 08/04/2016 03:00 AM, Cecilia Tanaka wrote:
> >> I asked Steve some suggestions in private, but it's better to ask
> >> publicly, so more people can profit the clues.  Oh, you know, he
> >> loves books, uses cute emoticons and makes oink oink.  He's a good
> >> reference for me, hahaha!!  ;)
>
> >When dredging the Internet for information, I am sure you won't have
> >much trouble picking out the State sponsored anarchist literature and
> >pseudo-radical propaganda fronts:
>
>
> I hope people will forgive me for tooting my own horn.  I was a minarchist
> Libertarian in 1994,
> not an anarchist Libertarian.  But it wasn't because I somehow wanted to
> keep around some
> minimal government.  Rather, it was because I couldn't figure out a
> logically-consistent method'
> to entirely get rid of those last vestiges of government.  Lacking such an
> plausible method,
> I chose the intellectually-honest route of accepting (at the time) that
> some residual government
> would be necessary.
>
> While not specifically aware of David Friedman's (son of famous economist
> Milton Friedman)
> "Hard Problem"  http://econlog.econlib.org/archives/2009/04/will_david_
> frie.html   , from his
> book, "The Machinery of Freedom" (1973; revised in 1989; again 2014),  I
> was effectively
> aware of the  same barrier, and like Friedman, I could not see any
> solution.  Anarchy, I
> concluded, was impractical, and unachievable.
>
> It's a good thing that I wasn't aware of Friedman's "Hard Problem", or the
> idea it was "hard".
> In January 1995 I because to contemplate the idea that turned into my
> "Assassination
> Politics" essay.   https://cryptome.org/ap.htm
>
>   I wasn't intending to solve that problem:  Rather, I was trying to
> figure out how
> an otherwise-powerless public could defend itself from bad acts, mostly
> from government
> employees.  I realized that to combine the contributions of anonymous
> individuals,  allows
> that public can deter and prevent those bad acts.  I further realized that
> this system would
> be extremely economical, allowing (for instance) the region known as
> "America" to defend
> itself, not merely from external threats, but also internal crime,
> probably for a total cost of
> under $1 billion per year, far less than the $600 billion in defense
> spending currently done.
>
> A simplistic, initial analysis (which I initially assumed, even before I
> wrote the first part of the
> AP essay) was that AP would simply fix government.  But the ultimate "fix"
> was actually far
> more powerful than I'd initially realized, not merely fixing governments,
> but destroying all
> governments, and thus protecting an anarchist or minarchist region from
> threatening
> neighbors.
>
> Put simply, I solved David Friedman's "Hard Problem".  I haven't yet seen
> the 2014 revision
> of his book, Machinery of Freedom, to see if he has acknowledged this yet.
>    I think it would
> be extraordinarily strange if he doesn't do so:  After all, ostensibly we
> are on the same side
> of this matter.  He advocates a zero-government solution:  Why wouldn't he
> cite a proof
> that a zero-government solution is actually possible, contrary to his
> apparent previous
> opinion?
>
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Machinery_of_Freedom
>
> But in effect, I think I was quite correct, pre-1995, for me  to believe
> that anarchy was
>  impractical.   I don't know how people who labelled themselves as
> 'anarchists'  resolved
> the apparent contradiction.  Were they aware that anarchy wasn't stable?
>  (At least not
> absent my 1995 invention, AP).   Most likely I think they were simply
> unaware that anarchy
> wasn't going to be stable.  Or, perhaps they assumed that then-future
> events would somehow
> solve the problem.  As, ultimately, they did, but it didn't have to be
> that way.  I, virtually by
> accident, solved that problem.  But things could have been very different.
>
>                 Jim Bell
>
>
>
>


-- 
Cari Machet
NYC 646-436-7795
carimachet at gmail.com
AIM carismachet
Syria +963-099 277 3243
Amman +962 077 636 9407
Berlin +49 152 11779219
Reykjavik +354 894 8650
Twitter: @carimachet <https://twitter.com/carimachet>

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addressee(s) and may contain confidential information. If you are not the
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From zen at freedbms.net  Fri Aug  5 11:14:24 2016
From: zen at freedbms.net (Zenaan Harkness)
Date: Sat, 6 Aug 2016 04:14:24 +1000
Subject: Quantum entangled-photon Chinese satellite.
In-Reply-To: <57A4AC72.6000301@riseup.net>
References: <1603947053.11044988.1470329352392.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com>
 <57a3a57f.0703370a.241d8.c3ea@mx.google.com>
 <1359771938.2091832.1470347891966.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com>
 <57a3c0a1.84bd370a.2e08f.dde4@mx.google.com>
 <953028539.36755.1470353627925.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com>
 <57a44457.4c64370a.22ed0.1e04@mx.google.com>
 <20160805080713.GE1038@sivokote.iziade.m$>
 <2034279837.11486285.1470387532268.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com>
 <20160805115131.GH1038@sivokote.iziade.m$>
 <57A4AC72.6000301@riseup.net>
Message-ID: <20160805181424.GV2570@x220-a02>

On Fri, Aug 05, 2016 at 09:10:42AM -0600, Mirimir wrote:
...
> Here, from <http://www.scottaaronson.com/blog/?p=2464>:
> > The violation of the Bell inequality has a schizophrenic status in
> > physics.  To many of the physicists I know, Nature’s violating the
> > Bell inequality is so trivial and obvious that it’s barely even
> > worth doing the experiment: if people had just understood and
> > believed Bohr and Heisenberg back in 1925, there would’ve been no
> > need for this whole tiresome discussion.

Seriously, I am none the wiser and cannot yet make sense of what they
are saying.

China apparently is putting this experiment in space - are they winning
a game on prediction of one particular bit with > 75% probability, and
if so, can they run that game numerous times to get that probability
close to 100%, and if so, can the random inputs to each side be made not
random so that the result of the game is transmission of information?

I cannot begin to answer any of these questions sorry...


> Me, I like the many worlds interpretation. But it's just an
> interpretation. What matters is the math.

That sounds much more interesting than the implications of 'dull'
said to be arising from qubits :)

The hope is that since some say the experiment is pretty dull to begin
with, then perhaps there is a soul alive who could answer the above
questions... we can only hope.




From jdb10987 at yahoo.com  Fri Aug  5 23:48:03 2016
From: jdb10987 at yahoo.com (jim bell)
Date: Sat, 6 Aug 2016 06:48:03 +0000 (UTC)
Subject: Quantum entangled-photon Chinese satellite.
In-Reply-To: <20160805181424.GV2570@x220-a02>
References: <1603947053.11044988.1470329352392.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com>
 <57a3a57f.0703370a.241d8.c3ea@mx.google.com>
 <1359771938.2091832.1470347891966.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com>
 <57a3c0a1.84bd370a.2e08f.dde4@mx.google.com>
 <953028539.36755.1470353627925.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com>
 <57a44457.4c64370a.22ed0.1e04@mx.google.com>
 <20160805080713.GE1038@sivokote.iziade.m$>
 <2034279837.11486285.1470387532268.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com>
 <20160805115131.GH1038@sivokote.iziade.m$> <57A4AC72.6000301@riseup.net>
 <20160805181424.GV2570@x220-a02>
Message-ID: <1097950974.12249609.1470466083106.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com>



 From: Zenaan Harkness <zen at freedbms.net>
On Fri, Aug 05, 2016 at 09:10:42AM -0600, Mirimir wrote:
...
> Here, from <http://www.scottaaronson.com/blog/?p=2464>:
> > The violation of the Bell inequality has a schizophrenic status in
> > physics.  To many of the physicists I know, Nature’s violating the
> > Bell inequality is so trivial and obvious that it’s barely even
> > worth doing the experiment: if people had just understood and
> > believed Bohr and Heisenberg back in 1925, there would’ve been no
> > need for this whole tiresome discussion.

>Seriously, I am none the wiser and cannot yet make sense of what they
>are saying.
>China apparently is putting this experiment in space - are they winning
>a game on prediction of one particular bit with > 75% probability, and
>if so, can they run that game numerous times to get that probability
>close to 100%, and if so, can the random inputs to each side be made not
>random so that the result of the game is transmission of information?
>I cannot begin to answer any of these questions sorry...

I will explain what I think they are doing in the fiber-optic version of the experiment,at least so nobody is permanently misled by my previous analogy.
Imagine a central location on earth, let's call it Location B.  20,500 meters west of that is Location A, and 20,500 meters to the east of "B" is Location C.  There's anoptical fiber going from "A" to "B", and another optical fiber going from "B" to "C".Two entangled photons are produced at Location B, then one is launched into fiber going to "A", and the other photon is launched from "B" into the fiber going to "C".
After about 100 microseconds later (since the speed of light in that fiber is about 'c'/1.4584, where 1.4584 is the index of refraction of infrared in silica, thus 205.5 meters /microsecond), those photons emerge from their respective ends.  Notnecessarily at the same time, because the length of the fibers may not be quiteidentical.  They do the detection at Location A, and through prior arrangement theyschedule the detection at "C" a few nanoseconds later, possibly adjusting the physical length of the fiber to get the timing close to being correct..  Good synchronization could be achieved by GPS-controlled clocks, or perhaps a third fiber being used to synchronize local clocks at "A" and "C".
They first detect at "A", and then detect at "C".  And they might reverse the order, forcompleteness.  But that's not the end:To determine that there has been more than a 50% correlation of the measured spins, they haveto transmit the type (angle) of measurement they make by ordinary optical fiber.  (Although,it wouldn't have to be on an optical fiber:  It could be a USB memory stick glued to theshell of a fast snail, I suppose.  the important thing is that the information eventually getsto the other side, not how fast it takes to get there.)
  The information eventually gets to the other end, and they do the calculations andverify that SOMEHOW, the fact that a measurement at "A" somehow affected themeasurement at "C".   If they "schmoo plot" (meaning carefully adjust, then plot on a graph)  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shmoo   , they can determine how fast some affecting particle or signal would have to travel to affect the receiver at the other end.  Since the delay from Location "A" to "Location "C" would be (100+100) = 200 microseconds in a fiber, it would be 200/1.4584 = 137.136 microseconds from location A to location C,by air.  (or in a vacuum, or by radio, etc.)
That figure I found from an article a few years ago, that said it would have to travel at least 10,000x that of 'c' to affect the measurement, would require that the delay is measured by:137.136 microseconds/10,000 = 13.7126 nanoseconds.   If the measurement at "A" occurred only 13.7136 nanoseconds before the measurement at "C", and yet there wasstill correlation, this shows that a velocity of at least 10,000 'c' to affect the outcome at "C".
Therefore, I conclude that it would be easy to measure the minimum effective speed of the 
hypothetical interfering particle or wave.  That particle or wave would have to travel 41,000meters in less than 13.7 nanoseconds, to achieve that interference.  Time measurement to 1 nanosecond is easy, to 1 picosecond is doable, and in fact measurement of time valuesfar less than 1 picosecond can be accomplished.
             Jim Bell


  
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From jdb10987 at yahoo.com  Sat Aug  6 00:06:22 2016
From: jdb10987 at yahoo.com (jim bell)
Date: Sat, 6 Aug 2016 07:06:22 +0000 (UTC)
Subject: Quantum entangled-photon Chinese satellite: Article on Bell
 Inequality test experiments in Wikipedia article.
In-Reply-To: <1097950974.12249609.1470466083106.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com>
References: <1603947053.11044988.1470329352392.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com>
 <57a3a57f.0703370a.241d8.c3ea@mx.google.com>
 <1359771938.2091832.1470347891966.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com>
 <57a3c0a1.84bd370a.2e08f.dde4@mx.google.com>
 <953028539.36755.1470353627925.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com>
 <57a44457.4c64370a.22ed0.1e04@mx.google.com>
 <20160805080713.GE1038@sivokote.iziade.m$>
 <2034279837.11486285.1470387532268.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com>
 <20160805115131.GH1038@sivokote.iziade.m$> <57A4AC72.6000301@riseup.net>
 <20160805181424.GV2570@x220-a02>
 <1097950974.12249609.1470466083106.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <2011506479.12063143.1470467182582.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com>

   https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bell_test_experiments 
This article describes the various experiments over the years.   I don't remember where i foundthe factor of 10,000 'c' velocity that the hypothetical interfering signal would have to travel atto interfere.             Jim Bell

      From: jim bell <jdb10987 at yahoo.com> From: Zenaan Harkness <zen at freedbms.net>
On Fri, Aug 05, 2016 at 09:10:42AM -0600, Mirimir wrote:
...
> Here, from <http://www.scottaaronson.com/blog/?p=2464>:
> > The violation of the Bell inequality has a schizophrenic status in
> > physics.  To many of the physicists I know, Nature’s violating the
> > Bell inequality is so trivial and obvious that it’s barely even
> > worth doing the experiment: if people had just understood and
> > believed Bohr and Heisenberg back in 1925, there would’ve been no
> > need for this whole tiresome discussion.

>Seriously, I am none the wiser and cannot yet make sense of what they
>are saying.
>China apparently is putting this experiment in space - are they winning
>a game on prediction of one particular bit with > 75% probability, and
>if so, can they run that game numerous times to get that probability
>close to 100%, and if so, can the random inputs to each side be made not
>random so that the result of the game is transmission of information?
>I cannot begin to answer any of these questions sorry...

I will explain what I think they are doing in the fiber-optic version of the experiment,at least so nobody is permanently misled by my previous analogy.
Imagine a central location on earth, let's call it Location B.  20,500 meters west of that is Location A, and 20,500 meters to the east of "B" is Location C.  There's anoptical fiber going from "A" to "B", and another optical fiber going from "B" to "C".Two entangled photons are produced at Location B, then one is launched into fiber going to "A", and the other photon is launched from "B" into the fiber going to "C".
After about 100 microseconds later (since the speed of light in that fiber is about 'c'/1.4584, where 1.4584 is the index of refraction of infrared in silica, thus 205.5 meters /microsecond), those photons emerge from their respective ends.  Notnecessarily at the same time, because the length of the fibers may not be quiteidentical.  They do the detection at Location A, and through prior arrangement theyschedule the detection at "C" a few nanoseconds later, possibly adjusting the physical length of the fiber to get the timing close to being correct..  Good synchronization could be achieved by GPS-controlled clocks, or perhaps a third fiber being used to synchronize local clocks at "A" and "C".
They first detect at "A", and then detect at "C".  And they might reverse the order, forcompleteness.  But that's not the end:To determine that there has been more than a 50% correlation of the measured spins, they haveto transmit the type (angle) of measurement they make by ordinary optical fiber.  (Although,it wouldn't have to be on an optical fiber:  It could be a USB memory stick glued to theshell of a fast snail, I suppose.  the important thing is that the information eventually getsto the other side, not how fast it takes to get there.)
  The information eventually gets to the other end, and they do the calculations andverify that SOMEHOW, the fact that a measurement at "A" somehow affected themeasurement at "C".   If they "schmoo plot" (meaning carefully adjust, then plot on a graph)  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shmoo   , they can determine how fast some affecting particle or signal would have to travel to affect the receiver at the other end.  Since the delay from Location "A" to "Location "C" would be (100+100) = 200 microseconds in a fiber, it would be 200/1.4584 = 137.136 microseconds from location A to location C,by air.  (or in a vacuum, or by radio, etc.)
That figure I found from an article a few years ago, that said it would have to travel at least 10,000x that of 'c' to affect the measurement, would require that the delay is measured by:137.136 microseconds/10,000 = 13.7126 nanoseconds.   If the measurement at "A" occurred only 13.7136 nanoseconds before the measurement at "C", and yet there wasstill correlation, this shows that a velocity of at least 10,000 'c' to affect the outcome at "C".
Therefore, I conclude that it would be easy to measure the minimum effective speed of the 
hypothetical interfering particle or wave.  That particle or wave would have to travel 41,000meters in less than 13.7 nanoseconds, to achieve that interference.  Time measurement to 1 nanosecond is easy, to 1 picosecond is doable, and in fact measurement of time valuesfar less than 1 picosecond can be accomplished.
             Jim Bell
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bell_test_experiments



   

  
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From jdb10987 at yahoo.com  Sat Aug  6 00:14:50 2016
From: jdb10987 at yahoo.com (jim bell)
Date: Sat, 6 Aug 2016 07:14:50 +0000 (UTC)
Subject: Quantum entangled-photon Chinese satellite: Article on Bell
 Inequality test experiments:  Found 10,000 'c' minimum
In-Reply-To: <2011506479.12063143.1470467182582.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com>
References: <1603947053.11044988.1470329352392.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com>
 <57a3a57f.0703370a.241d8.c3ea@mx.google.com>
 <1359771938.2091832.1470347891966.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com>
 <57a3c0a1.84bd370a.2e08f.dde4@mx.google.com>
 <953028539.36755.1470353627925.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com>
 <57a44457.4c64370a.22ed0.1e04@mx.google.com>
 <20160805080713.GE1038@sivokote.iziade.m$>
 <2034279837.11486285.1470387532268.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com>
 <20160805115131.GH1038@sivokote.iziade.m$> <57A4AC72.6000301@riseup.net>
 <20160805181424.GV2570@x220-a02>
 <1097950974.12249609.1470466083106.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com>
 <2011506479.12063143.1470467182582.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <387321200.12022230.1470467690785.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com>

From: jim bell <jdb10987 at yahoo.com>


 To: Zenaan Harkness <zen at freedbms.net>; "cypherpunks at cpunks.org" <cypherpunks at cpunks.org> 
 Sent: Saturday, August 6, 2016 12:06 AM
 Subject: Re: Quantum entangled-photon Chinese satellite: Article on Bell Inequality test experiments in Wikipedia article.
   
   https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bell_test_experiments 
This article describes the various experiments over the years.   I don't remember where i foundthe factor of 10,000 'c' velocity that the hypothetical interfering signal would have to travel atto interfere.   Ooops!  Found it at:  http://newatlas.com/quantum-entanglement-speed-10000-faster-light/26587/  

Quantum "spooky action at a distance" travels at least 10,000 times faster than light
Brian Dodson  March 10, 2013  The speed of entanglement dynamics is at least 10,000 times faster than light according to Prof. Juan Yin and colleaguesQuantum entanglement, one of the odder aspects of quantum theory, links the properties of particles even when they are separated by large distances. When a property of one of a pair of entangled particles is measured, the other "immediately" settles down into a state compatible with that measurement. So how fast is "immediately"? According to research by Prof. Juan Yin and colleagues at the University of Science and Technology of China in Shanghai, the lower limit to the speed associated with entanglement dynamics – or "spooky action at a distance" – is at least 10,000 times faster than light.Despite playing a vital role in the development of quantum theory, Einstein felt philosophically at odds with its description of how the universe works. His famous quote that "God does not play dice" hints at his level of discomfort with the role of probability in quantum theory. He believed there exists another level of reality in which all of physics would be deterministic, and that quantum mechanics would turn out to be a description that emerges from the workings of that level – rather like a traffic jam emerges from the independent motions of a large number of cars.[...]
Prof Yin's experiment, which was a bit more complicated in detail than the above simplification, observed no difference in polarization direction. The time it would take light to travel between Alice and Bob was about 50 μs, while the action of the entanglement dynamics had to be less than 0.35 ns. The minimum speed of the entanglement influence is just the one divided by the other, or 144,500 times the speed of light. However, a number of factors go into the interpretation of the results, which reduce the lower limit of the speed of entanglement influence to about 10,000 times the speed of light.

Notice that this result does not eliminate the possibility that the influence of entanglement actually is instantaneous – it merely sets a limit saying how close the influence must be to infinitely fast. Another possibility that is gaining credence is that entanglement dynamics may operate external to time, or at least may ignore time as it ignores distance.

[end of portion quoted]

             Jim Bell

      From: jim bell <jdb10987 at yahoo.com> From: Zenaan Harkness <zen at freedbms.net>
On Fri, Aug 05, 2016 at 09:10:42AM -0600, Mirimir wrote:
...
> Here, from <http://www.scottaaronson.com/blog/?p=2464>:
> > The violation of the Bell inequality has a schizophrenic status in
> > physics.  To many of the physicists I know, Nature’s violating the
> > Bell inequality is so trivial and obvious that it’s barely even
> > worth doing the experiment: if people had just understood and
> > believed Bohr and Heisenberg back in 1925, there would’ve been no
> > need for this whole tiresome discussion.

>Seriously, I am none the wiser and cannot yet make sense of what they
>are saying.
>China apparently is putting this experiment in space - are they winning
>a game on prediction of one particular bit with > 75% probability, and
>if so, can they run that game numerous times to get that probability
>close to 100%, and if so, can the random inputs to each side be made not
>random so that the result of the game is transmission of information?
>I cannot begin to answer any of these questions sorry...

I will explain what I think they are doing in the fiber-optic version of the experiment,at least so nobody is permanently misled by my previous analogy.
Imagine a central location on earth, let's call it Location B.  20,500 meters west of that is Location A, and 20,500 meters to the east of "B" is Location C.  There's anoptical fiber going from "A" to "B", and another optical fiber going from "B" to "C".Two entangled photons are produced at Location B, then one is launched into fiber going to "A", and the other photon is launched from "B" into the fiber going to "C".
After about 100 microseconds later (since the speed of light in that fiber is about 'c'/1.4584, where 1.4584 is the index of refraction of infrared in silica, thus 205.5 meters /microsecond), those photons emerge from their respective ends.  Notnecessarily at the same time, because the length of the fibers may not be quiteidentical.  They do the detection at Location A, and through prior arrangement theyschedule the detection at "C" a few nanoseconds later, possibly adjusting the physical length of the fiber to get the timing close to being correct..  Good synchronization could be achieved by GPS-controlled clocks, or perhaps a third fiber being used to synchronize local clocks at "A" and "C".
They first detect at "A", and then detect at "C".  And they might reverse the order, forcompleteness.  But that's not the end:To determine that there has been more than a 50% correlation of the measured spins, they haveto transmit the type (angle) of measurement they make by ordinary optical fiber.  (Although,it wouldn't have to be on an optical fiber:  It could be a USB memory stick glued to theshell of a fast snail, I suppose.  the important thing is that the information eventually getsto the other side, not how fast it takes to get there.)
  The information eventually gets to the other end, and they do the calculations andverify that SOMEHOW, the fact that a measurement at "A" somehow affected themeasurement at "C".   If they "schmoo plot" (meaning carefully adjust, then plot on a graph)  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shmoo   , they can determine how fast some affecting particle or signal would have to travel to affect the receiver at the other end.  Since the delay from Location "A" to "Location "C" would be (100+100) = 200 microseconds in a fiber, it would be 200/1.4584 = 137.136 microseconds from location A to location C,by air.  (or in a vacuum, or by radio, etc.)
That figure I found from an article a few years ago, that said it would have to travel at least 10,000x that of 'c' to affect the measurement, would require that the delay is measured by:137.136 microseconds/10,000 = 13.7126 nanoseconds.   If the measurement at "A" occurred only 13.7136 nanoseconds before the measurement at "C", and yet there wasstill correlation, this shows that a velocity of at least 10,000 'c' to affect the outcome at "C".
Therefore, I conclude that it would be easy to measure the minimum effective speed of the 
hypothetical interfering particle or wave.  That particle or wave would have to travel 41,000meters in less than 13.7 nanoseconds, to achieve that interference.  Time measurement to 1 nanosecond is easy, to 1 picosecond is doable, and in fact measurement of time valuesfar less than 1 picosecond can be accomplished.
             Jim Bell
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bell_test_experiments



   

   

  
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From mirimir at riseup.net  Sat Aug  6 07:36:56 2016
From: mirimir at riseup.net (Mirimir)
Date: Sat, 6 Aug 2016 08:36:56 -0600
Subject: Quantum entangled-photon Chinese satellite.
In-Reply-To: <1097950974.12249609.1470466083106.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com>
References: <1603947053.11044988.1470329352392.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com>
 <57a3a57f.0703370a.241d8.c3ea@mx.google.com>
 <1359771938.2091832.1470347891966.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com>
 <57a3c0a1.84bd370a.2e08f.dde4@mx.google.com>
 <953028539.36755.1470353627925.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com>
 <57a44457.4c64370a.22ed0.1e04@mx.google.com>
 <20160805080713.GE1038@sivokote.iziade.m$>
 <2034279837.11486285.1470387532268.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com>
 <20160805115131.GH1038@sivokote.iziade.m$> <57A4AC72.6000301@riseup.net>
 <20160805181424.GV2570@x220-a02>
 <1097950974.12249609.1470466083106.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <57A5F608.20905@riseup.net>

On 08/06/2016 12:48 AM, jim bell wrote:

<SNIP>

> Therefore, I conclude that it would be easy to measure the minimum
> effective speed of the hypothetical interfering particle or wave.
> That particle or wave would have to travel 41,000meters in less
than 13.7 nanoseconds, to achieve that interference.

OK, so they've shown that reality (for lack of a better word) cannot be
both realistic (as in classical mechanics) and locally constrained (as
in inability of information to travel faster than light speed). But that
is just what quantum mechanics (a bunch of math) predicts.

That is, one of realism and locality must be wrong.

One interpretation is that spacial separation is just an illusion.

<SNIP>




From mirimir at riseup.net  Sat Aug  6 07:41:13 2016
From: mirimir at riseup.net (Mirimir)
Date: Sat, 6 Aug 2016 08:41:13 -0600
Subject: Quantum entangled-photon Chinese satellite.
In-Reply-To: <20160806070941.GA2887@x220-a02>
References: <1359771938.2091832.1470347891966.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com>
 <57a3c0a1.84bd370a.2e08f.dde4@mx.google.com>
 <953028539.36755.1470353627925.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com>
 <57a44457.4c64370a.22ed0.1e04@mx.google.com>
 <20160805080713.GE1038@sivokote.iziade.m$>
 <2034279837.11486285.1470387532268.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com>
 <20160805115131.GH1038@sivokote.iziade.m$> <57A4AC72.6000301@riseup.net>
 <20160805181424.GV2570@x220-a02>
 <1097950974.12249609.1470466083106.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com>
 <20160806070941.GA2887@x220-a02>
Message-ID: <57A5F709.3060406@riseup.net>

On 08/06/2016 01:09 AM, Zenaan Harkness wrote:

<SNIP>

> I consider that the wave function of the photon, although centred at the
> "geometric center" of the photon, is in fact continuous, and for all
> intents and purposes, affecting one point of the wave (say 40,000 km
> away), affects the photon at the other end of that wave.

Well, it's actually the electrons that are entangled. The photons are
just messengers. But yes, that's how I understand it. Wave functions
collapse faster than light speed.

> Next question, can they truly isolate the two entangled photonic wave
> parts? (Not sure if the question makes sense.)

There is no "isolate" in this model ;)




From guninski at guninski.com  Sat Aug  6 01:04:56 2016
From: guninski at guninski.com (Georgi Guninski)
Date: Sat, 6 Aug 2016 11:04:56 +0300
Subject: Quantum entangled-photon Chinese satellite.
In-Reply-To: <20160806070941.GA2887@x220-a02>
References: <57a3c0a1.84bd370a.2e08f.dde4@mx.google.com>
 <953028539.36755.1470353627925.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com>
 <57a44457.4c64370a.22ed0.1e04@mx.google.com>
 <20160805080713.GE1038@sivokote.iziade.m$>
 <2034279837.11486285.1470387532268.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com>
 <20160805115131.GH1038@sivokote.iziade.m$>
 <57A4AC72.6000301@riseup.net> <20160805181424.GV2570@x220-a02>
 <1097950974.12249609.1470466083106.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com>
 <20160806070941.GA2887@x220-a02>
Message-ID: <20160806080456.GA691@sivokote.iziade.m$>

On Sat, Aug 06, 2016 at 05:09:41PM +1000, Zenaan Harkness wrote:
> Next question, can they truly isolate the two entangled photonic wave
> parts? (Not sure if the question makes sense.)

Yesterday I asked something very similar: will photons communicate if
they are on the opposite sides of Earth (or Sun).

To isolate, I would try throwing one of the photons in a Black Hole.

Or "destroy" one of them, but this is close to cheating.

Once again suggest:  someone who understand physics to ask on physics
forum, possibly physics.stackexchange.com.




From mirimir at riseup.net  Sat Aug  6 14:18:36 2016
From: mirimir at riseup.net (Mirimir)
Date: Sat, 6 Aug 2016 15:18:36 -0600
Subject: Quantum entangled-photon Chinese satellite.
In-Reply-To: <57a641c0.9d3bed0a.49177.6f74@mx.google.com>
References: <1603947053.11044988.1470329352392.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com>
 <57a3a57f.0703370a.241d8.c3ea@mx.google.com>
 <1359771938.2091832.1470347891966.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com>
 <57a3c0a1.84bd370a.2e08f.dde4@mx.google.com>
 <953028539.36755.1470353627925.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com>
 <57a44457.4c64370a.22ed0.1e04@mx.google.com>
 <20160805080713.GE1038@sivokote.iziade.m$>
 <2034279837.11486285.1470387532268.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com>
 <20160805115131.GH1038@sivokote.iziade.m$> <57A4AC72.6000301@riseup.net>
 <20160805181424.GV2570@x220-a02> <57A4EF5F.5000600@riseup.net>
 <57a4f618.44a6370a.38261.bfc0@mx.google.com> <57A505A1.6030801@riseup.net>
 <57a641c0.9d3bed0a.49177.6f74@mx.google.com>
Message-ID: <57A6542C.6040500@riseup.net>

On 08/06/2016 02:04 PM, juan wrote:
> On Fri, 5 Aug 2016 15:31:13 -0600
> Mirimir <mirimir at riseup.net> wrote:
> 
> 
>>
>> The problem with classical mechanics is that it's not consistent with
>> measurements.
> 
> 	Not consistent with what measurements?

The fucking paper that I've cited. And more generally, all experiments
that reject the null hypothesis that the outcome of the CHSH game is 75%
or less.

>> Quantum mechanics is. The equations. According to the
>> Copenhagen interpretation, only the math matters. I don't like it any
>> more than you seem to. Because I'm not a mathematician.
> 
> 	"Only the math matters" doesn't make sense. This might come as
> 	a shock, but physics is supposed to 'measure' 'reality'. Then
> 	the  measured magnitudes may end up in some equations, used to
> 	calculate other aspects of...reality. 
> 
> 	Like, you measure the volume of object X, you then put
> 	'volume' and 'density' in a equation, and you get the weight of
> 	object X.
> 
> 	Math is just a tool that deals with numbers. And numbers
> 	without units have no physical meaning.

Quantum mechanics is math. It makes predictions about reality that can
be tested. By experiments where stuff gets measured.

The problem is that some predictions of quantum mechanics, such as this
stuff about entanglement, 1) have been verified experimentally, but 2)
don't make obvious sense. That is, a wave function comprising two
entangled electrons can apparently collapse instantaneously, even though
the electrons are arbitrarily far apart. You could try to give up light
as a universal speed limit. But that creates other paradoxes.

>>>> So basically, they find that the classical model of reality is
>>>> fucked.
>>>
>>>
>>> 	lol lol lol
>>
>> You must be a local realist ;)
> 
> 
> 	I of course am a rationalist and a realist. I don't know what
> 	'local realism' is supposed to mean. 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Principle_of_locality#Local_realism




From mirimir at riseup.net  Sat Aug  6 14:30:19 2016
From: mirimir at riseup.net (Mirimir)
Date: Sat, 6 Aug 2016 15:30:19 -0600
Subject: Quantum entangled-photon Chinese satellite.
In-Reply-To: <57a4f618.44a6370a.38261.bfc0@mx.google.com>
References: <1603947053.11044988.1470329352392.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com>
 <57a3a57f.0703370a.241d8.c3ea@mx.google.com>
 <1359771938.2091832.1470347891966.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com>
 <57a3c0a1.84bd370a.2e08f.dde4@mx.google.com>
 <953028539.36755.1470353627925.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com>
 <57a44457.4c64370a.22ed0.1e04@mx.google.com>
 <20160805080713.GE1038@sivokote.iziade.m$>
 <2034279837.11486285.1470387532268.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com>
 <20160805115131.GH1038@sivokote.iziade.m$> <57A4AC72.6000301@riseup.net>
 <20160805181424.GV2570@x220-a02> <57A4EF5F.5000600@riseup.net>
 <57a4f618.44a6370a.38261.bfc0@mx.google.com>
Message-ID: <57A656EB.2000505@riseup.net>

>From <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Faster-than-light#Quantum_mechanics>:

> Certain phenomena in quantum mechanics, such as quantum entanglement,
> might give the superficial impression of allowing communication of
> information faster than light. _According to the no-communication
> theorem these phenomena do not allow true communication; they only
> let two observers in different locations see the same system
> simultaneously, without any way of controlling what either sees._
> Wavefunction collapse can be viewed as an epiphenomenon of quantum
> decoherence, which in turn is nothing more than an effect of the
> underlying local time evolution of the wavefunction of a system
> and all of its environment. Since the underlying behaviour
> doesn't violate local causality or allow FTL it follows that
> neither does the additional effect of wavefunction collapse,
> whether real or apparent.

(emphasis added)





From guninski at guninski.com  Sat Aug  6 05:53:15 2016
From: guninski at guninski.com (Georgi Guninski)
Date: Sat, 6 Aug 2016 15:53:15 +0300
Subject: Remember, remember Hiroshima?
Message-ID: <20160806125315.GC691@sivokote.iziade.m$>


Remember, remember Hiroshima?

https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Atomic_bombings_of_Hiroshima_and_Nagasaki&oldid=732139411

| The United States, with the consent of the United Kingdom as laid down in the Quebec Agreement, dropped nuclear weapons on the Japanese cities of Hiroshima and Nagasaki in August 1945, during the final stage of World War II. The two bombings, which killed at least 129,000 people, remain the only use of nuclear weapons for warfare in history.

| Date 	August 6 and August 9, 1945




From juan.g71 at gmail.com  Sat Aug  6 13:04:22 2016
From: juan.g71 at gmail.com (juan)
Date: Sat, 6 Aug 2016 17:04:22 -0300
Subject: Quantum entangled-photon Chinese satellite.
In-Reply-To: <57A505A1.6030801@riseup.net>
References: <1603947053.11044988.1470329352392.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com>
 <57a3a57f.0703370a.241d8.c3ea@mx.google.com>
 <1359771938.2091832.1470347891966.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com>
 <57a3c0a1.84bd370a.2e08f.dde4@mx.google.com>
 <953028539.36755.1470353627925.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com>
 <57a44457.4c64370a.22ed0.1e04@mx.google.com>
 <20160805080713.GE1038@sivokote.iziade.m$>
 <2034279837.11486285.1470387532268.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com>
 <20160805115131.GH1038@sivokote.iziade.m$>
 <57A4AC72.6000301@riseup.net> <20160805181424.GV2570@x220-a02>
 <57A4EF5F.5000600@riseup.net>
 <57a4f618.44a6370a.38261.bfc0@mx.google.com>
 <57A505A1.6030801@riseup.net>
Message-ID: <57a641c0.9d3bed0a.49177.6f74@mx.google.com>

On Fri, 5 Aug 2016 15:31:13 -0600
Mirimir <mirimir at riseup.net> wrote:


> 
> The problem with classical mechanics is that it's not consistent with
> measurements.

	Not consistent with what measurements?


> Quantum mechanics is. The equations. According to the
> Copenhagen interpretation, only the math matters. I don't like it any
> more than you seem to. Because I'm not a mathematician.

	"Only the math matters" doesn't make sense. This might come as
	a shock, but physics is supposed to 'measure' 'reality'. Then
	the  measured magnitudes may end up in some equations, used to
	calculate other aspects of...reality. 

	Like, you measure the volume of object X, you then put
	'volume' and 'density' in a equation, and you get the weight of
	object X.

	Math is just a tool that deals with numbers. And numbers
	without units have no physical meaning.



> >>
> >> So basically, they find that the classical model of reality is
> >> fucked.
> > 
> > 
> > 	lol lol lol
> 
> You must be a local realist ;)


	I of course am a rationalist and a realist. I don't know what
	'local realism' is supposed to mean. 



J.




From zen at freedbms.net  Sat Aug  6 00:09:41 2016
From: zen at freedbms.net (Zenaan Harkness)
Date: Sat, 6 Aug 2016 17:09:41 +1000
Subject: Quantum entangled-photon Chinese satellite.
In-Reply-To: <1097950974.12249609.1470466083106.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com>
References: <1359771938.2091832.1470347891966.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com>
 <57a3c0a1.84bd370a.2e08f.dde4@mx.google.com>
 <953028539.36755.1470353627925.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com>
 <57a44457.4c64370a.22ed0.1e04@mx.google.com>
 <20160805080713.GE1038@sivokote.iziade.m$>
 <2034279837.11486285.1470387532268.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com>
 <20160805115131.GH1038@sivokote.iziade.m$>
 <57A4AC72.6000301@riseup.net> <20160805181424.GV2570@x220-a02>
 <1097950974.12249609.1470466083106.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <20160806070941.GA2887@x220-a02>

On Sat, Aug 06, 2016 at 06:48:03AM +0000, jim bell wrote:
> 
> 
>  From: Zenaan Harkness <zen at freedbms.net>
> On Fri, Aug 05, 2016 at 09:10:42AM -0600, Mirimir wrote:
> ...
> > Here, from <http://www.scottaaronson.com/blog/?p=2464>:
> > > The violation of the Bell inequality has a schizophrenic status in
> > > physics.  To many of the physicists I know, Nature’s violating the
> > > Bell inequality is so trivial and obvious that it’s barely even
> > > worth doing the experiment: if people had just understood and
> > > believed Bohr and Heisenberg back in 1925, there would’ve been no
> > > need for this whole tiresome discussion.
> 
> >Seriously, I am none the wiser and cannot yet make sense of what they
> >are saying.
> >China apparently is putting this experiment in space - are they winning
> >a game on prediction of one particular bit with > 75% probability, and
> >if so, can they run that game numerous times to get that probability
> >close to 100%, and if so, can the random inputs to each side be made not
> >random so that the result of the game is transmission of information?
> >I cannot begin to answer any of these questions sorry...
> 
> I will explain what I think they are doing in the fiber-optic version
> of the experiment,at least so nobody is permanently misled by my
> previous analogy.

> Imagine a central location on earth, let's call it Location B.  20,500
> meters west of that is Location A, and 20,500 meters to the east of
> "B" is Location C.  There's anoptical fiber going from "A" to "B", and
> another optical fiber going from "B" to "C".Two entangled photons are
> produced at Location B, then one is launched into fiber going to "A",
> and the other photon is launched from "B" into the fiber going to "C".

> After about 100 microseconds later (since the speed of light in that
> fiber is about 'c'/1.4584, where 1.4584 is the index of refraction of
> infrared in silica, thus 205.5 meters /microsecond), those photons
> emerge from their respective ends.  Notnecessarily at the same time,
> because the length of the fibers may not be quiteidentical.  They do
> the detection at Location A, and through prior arrangement
> theyschedule the detection at "C" a few nanoseconds later, possibly
> adjusting the physical length of the fiber to get the timing close to
> being correct..  Good synchronization could be achieved by
> GPS-controlled clocks, or perhaps a third fiber being used
> to synchronize local clocks at "A" and "C".  They first detect at "A",
> and then detect at "C".  And they might reverse the order,
> forcompleteness.  But that's not the end:To determine that there has
> been more than a 50% correlation of the measured spins, they haveto
> transmit the type (angle) of measurement they make by ordinary optical
> fiber.  (Although,it wouldn't have to be on an optical fiber:  It
> could be a USB memory stick glued to theshell of a fast snail, I
> suppose.  the important thing is that the information eventually
> getsto the other side, not how fast it takes to get there.)

>   The information eventually gets to the other end, and they do the
> calculations andverify that SOMEHOW, the fact that a measurement at
> "A" somehow affected themeasurement at "C".   If they "schmoo plot"
> (meaning carefully adjust, then plot on a
> graph)  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shmoo   , they can determine how
> fast some affecting particle or signal would have to travel to affect
> the receiver at the other end.  Since the delay from Location "A" to
> "Location "C" would be (100+100) = 200 microseconds in a fiber, it
> would be 200/1.4584 = 137.136 microseconds from location A to location
> C,by air.  (or in a vacuum, or by radio, etc.) That figure I found
> from an article a few years ago, that said it would have to travel
> at least 10,000x that of 'c' to affect the measurement, would require
> that the delay is measured by:137.136 microseconds/10,000 = 13.7126
> nanoseconds.   If the measurement at "A" occurred only 13.7136
> nanoseconds before the measurement at "C", and yet there wasstill
> correlation, this shows that a velocity of at least 10,000 'c' to
> affect the outcome at "C".

> Therefore, I conclude that it would be easy to measure the minimum
> effective speed of the  hypothetical interfering particle or wave.
>  That particle or wave would have to travel 41,000meters in less than
> 13.7 nanoseconds, to achieve that interference.  Time measurement to
> 1 nanosecond is easy, to 1 picosecond is doable, and in fact
> measurement of time valuesfar less than 1 picosecond can be
> accomplished.

So it seems to me that information is in fact being transmitted. So I
can freely philosophize and hopythesize in science fantasy, soon to
become science fact :)

I consider that the wave function of the photon, although centred at the
"geometric center" of the photon, is in fact continuous, and for all
intents and purposes, affecting one point of the wave (say 40,000 km
away), affects the photon at the other end of that wave.

Next question, can they truly isolate the two entangled photonic wave
parts? (Not sure if the question makes sense.)




From mirimir at riseup.net  Sat Aug  6 16:14:23 2016
From: mirimir at riseup.net (Mirimir)
Date: Sat, 6 Aug 2016 17:14:23 -0600
Subject: Quantum entangled-photon Chinese satellite.
In-Reply-To: <20160806225036.GA2782@x220-a02>
References: <20160805080713.GE1038@sivokote.iziade.m$>
 <2034279837.11486285.1470387532268.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com>
 <20160805115131.GH1038@sivokote.iziade.m$> <57A4AC72.6000301@riseup.net>
 <20160805181424.GV2570@x220-a02> <57A4EF5F.5000600@riseup.net>
 <57a4f618.44a6370a.38261.bfc0@mx.google.com> <57A505A1.6030801@riseup.net>
 <57a641c0.9d3bed0a.49177.6f74@mx.google.com> <57A6542C.6040500@riseup.net>
 <20160806225036.GA2782@x220-a02>
Message-ID: <57A66F4F.1010005@riseup.net>

On 08/06/2016 04:50 PM, Zenaan Harkness wrote:
>>> 	Not consistent with what measurements?
>>
>> The fucking paper
> 
> An impressive piece of paper. New Japanese art form?

Hensen et al. (2015) Experimental loophole-free violation of a Bell
inequality using entangled electron spins separated by 1.3 km
<https://arxiv.org/pdf/1508.05949v1.pdf>




From cecilia.tanaka at gmail.com  Sat Aug  6 13:37:51 2016
From: cecilia.tanaka at gmail.com (Cecilia Tanaka)
Date: Sat, 6 Aug 2016 17:37:51 -0300
Subject: Remember, remember Hiroshima?
In-Reply-To: <20160806125315.GC691@sivokote.iziade.m$>
References: <20160806125315.GC691@sivokote.iziade.m$>
Message-ID: <CAG2tMp6v0AV-whdZonRJhZHNWiP7wLZ9oaxxEV3-NDYKCy201w@mail.gmail.com>

On Aug 6, 2016 10:01 AM, "Georgi Guninski" <guninski at guninski.com> wrote:
>
> Remember, remember Hiroshima?

<https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Grave_of_the_Fireflies>

I suggest to watch "Grave of the Fireflies", if someone wish to pay tribute
to Hiroshima in a different way.

It's beautiful and sensible, but also one of the saddest 'anime'  (Japanese
animated movies/series)  that I saw in my whole life.

Not for being Japanese, not for showing the Second World War, but because
it shows the point of view of  children.  Children starving, crying, losing
their parents and dying without ever understanding the war.

In all the wars, what always worries me the most are the children, their
traums.  They don't have any guilt and always suffer all the pain.

<https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sadako_Sasaki>

Sorry, I didn't find the animated movie with English subtitles on line,
just the trailer.  It's the kind of story so disturbing, so intensely sad
that you can watch only once in your life.  I, probably, was not brave
enough in my searches, pardon.

Trailer:  http://youtu.be/4vPeTSRd580

Kisses and sad tsurus...

-  c.
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From zen at freedbms.net  Sat Aug  6 00:47:12 2016
From: zen at freedbms.net (Zenaan Harkness)
Date: Sat, 6 Aug 2016 17:47:12 +1000
Subject: Light makes a come back - touch down in the 5th dimension - yeah
 baby !!!;wq
In-Reply-To: <387321200.12022230.1470467690785.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com>
References: <953028539.36755.1470353627925.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com>
 <57a44457.4c64370a.22ed0.1e04@mx.google.com>
 <20160805080713.GE1038@sivokote.iziade.m$>
 <2034279837.11486285.1470387532268.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com>
 <20160805115131.GH1038@sivokote.iziade.m$>
 <57A4AC72.6000301@riseup.net> <20160805181424.GV2570@x220-a02>
 <1097950974.12249609.1470466083106.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com>
 <2011506479.12063143.1470467182582.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com>
 <387321200.12022230.1470467690785.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <20160806074712.GA5171@x220-a02>

On Sat, Aug 06, 2016 at 07:14:50AM +0000, jim bell wrote:
> From: jim bell <jdb10987 at yahoo.com>

>  To: Zenaan Harkness <zen at freedbms.net>; "cypherpunks at cpunks.org" <cypherpunks at cpunks.org> 
>  Sent: Saturday, August 6, 2016 12:06 AM
>  Subject: Re: Quantum entangled-photon Chinese satellite: Article on Bell Inequality test experiments in Wikipedia article.
>    
>    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bell_test_experiments 
> This article describes the various experiments over the years.   I
> don't remember where i foundthe factor of 10,000 'c' velocity that the
> hypothetical interfering signal would have to travel atto interfere.  
> Ooops!  Found it at:
>  http://newatlas.com/quantum-entanglement-speed-10000-faster-light/26587/  
> 
> Quantum "spooky action at a distance" travels at least 10,000 times
> faster than light

> Brian Dodson  March 10, 2013  The speed of entanglement dynamics is at
> least 10,000 times faster than light according to Prof. Juan Yin and
> colleaguesQuantum entanglement, one of the odder aspects of quantum
> theory, links the properties of particles even when they are separated
> by large distances. When a property of one of a pair of entangled
> particles is measured, the other "immediately" settles down into a
> state compatible with that measurement.

This certainly sounds like FTL information transfer. Time to go to town:

- we need a storage primitive and it seems we have one:
Inside a photon prison, a light-and-matter hybrid is born
http://newatlas.com/light-matter-strong-coupling/43883/

- we are breaking the diffraction limit:
Graphene optical lens a billionth of a meter thick breaks the
diffraction limit
http://newatlas.com/optical-lens-one-billionth-meter-thick/41588/

- the operating temperature of relevant devices is rising:
Macroscopic quantum entanglement achieved at room temperature
http://newatlas.com/quantum-entanglement-nuclei-university-chicago-argonne/40884/

- light/ photons may be individually controllable:
New form of light promises boost for photonic computing
http://newatlas.com/light-electron-quantum-imperial-college/44729/

- more control of light:
New ‘microlens’ could lead to ultra-powerful satellite cameras and
night-vision devices
http://newatlas.com/microlens-for-ultra-powerful-satellites-cameras-night-vision-devices/15153/

- matter on the way to being created from light, star trek transporter
  eat your heart out:
Groundbreaking experiment aims to create matter from light
http://newatlas.com/experiment-to-turn-light-into-matter/32107/

- optical antennas harnessing the wave side of photons:
1)
Optical antenna may allow LEDs to replace lasers in host of devices
http://newatlas.com/nano-optical-antenna-led-laser-optical-communications/35917/
2)
Nano antenna amplifies light by a factor of 1,000
http://newatlas.com/nano-antenna-amplifies-light/16460/

- and undoubtedly many more things are sure to be discovered yet.

http://newatlas.com/search/?q=gold+photon&sa=Search


So the future of wavicles, subspace / 5th dimensional (beyond 3D + time)
spooky actions all over the universe and endless new toys looks bright,
as in light, as in abundant and stand out in an effusive and very
visible way, as in...




> So how fast is "immediately"?

Fast enough - that's how fast.




From mirimir at riseup.net  Sat Aug  6 16:50:27 2016
From: mirimir at riseup.net (Mirimir)
Date: Sat, 6 Aug 2016 17:50:27 -0600
Subject: Quantum entangled-photon Chinese satellite.
In-Reply-To: <57a6723e.cfd6370a.b8f63.95df@mx.google.com>
References: <20160805080713.GE1038@sivokote.iziade.m$>
 <2034279837.11486285.1470387532268.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com>
 <20160805115131.GH1038@sivokote.iziade.m$> <57A4AC72.6000301@riseup.net>
 <20160805181424.GV2570@x220-a02> <57A4EF5F.5000600@riseup.net>
 <57a4f618.44a6370a.38261.bfc0@mx.google.com> <57A505A1.6030801@riseup.net>
 <57a641c0.9d3bed0a.49177.6f74@mx.google.com> <57A6542C.6040500@riseup.net>
 <20160806225036.GA2782@x220-a02> <57A66F4F.1010005@riseup.net>
 <57a6723e.cfd6370a.b8f63.95df@mx.google.com>
Message-ID: <57A677C3.7090007@riseup.net>

On 08/06/2016 05:31 PM, juan wrote:
> On Sat, 6 Aug 2016 17:14:23 -0600
> Mirimir <mirimir at riseup.net> wrote:
> 
>> On 08/06/2016 04:50 PM, Zenaan Harkness wrote:
>>>>> 	Not consistent with what measurements?
>>>>
>>>> The fucking paper
>>>
>>> An impressive piece of paper. New Japanese art form?
>>
>> Hensen et al. (2015) Experimental loophole-free violation of a Bell
>> inequality using entangled electron spins separated by 1.3 km
>> <https://arxiv.org/pdf/1508.05949v1.pdf>
> 
> 
> 	Can't you get the schroedinger article about zombie cats? Now
> 	that might be an interesting read. I'm assuming somebody in
> 	this list must have privileged access to some sort of
> 	university archive.

The Present Situation in Quantum Mechanics: A Translation of
Schrödinger's "Cat Paradox" Paper
<http://www.jstor.org.secure.sci-hub.cc/stable/986572>

> 	Meanwhile :
> 
> 	Schroedinger - What is life - 1944
> 
> 	http://whatislife.stanford.edu/LoCo_files/What-is-Life.pdf
> 
> 	
> 	I suggest people take a look at the epilogue where he talks
> 	about free will and determinism, about his budhist creed, and
> 	how human are actually immortal god...or something like that.
> 
> 
> 	
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
>>
> 
> 




From cecilia.tanaka at gmail.com  Sat Aug  6 14:09:25 2016
From: cecilia.tanaka at gmail.com (Cecilia Tanaka)
Date: Sat, 6 Aug 2016 18:09:25 -0300
Subject: Anarchist Bibliography, please? (was Re: Deconstructing an
 Institutional Slander...)
In-Reply-To: <6ca7e336-02af-d5b9-cb09-51fb250e2fc6@pilobilus.net>
References: <CAG2tMp6-KfNr0VgiddoLxHcHw6CzyU=uLJCdCsvo9EsBE8gTeQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAG2tMp512JL9-6r+6Cgqp5n__Aa49WCPv+UmrKmAT7OXP7xwvg@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAG2tMp5dWWyBcRUmO8EEoUjPZLGnBqBCX-B8mpzKKNsGsGWhUg@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAG2tMp7R2Lo0RN11qkC_iC9-4=2gHzpbcZEOoLtRFkCJ6Cf_KA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAG2tMp70VXbY+0GJs3HApMq71TcBympeLg3QUuDDdHwmC6Cqwg@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAG2tMp4=q0aFUjcS8Gei2J9FqYfQnsWg0E5Vh_OtGjVuJ-_V0Q@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAG2tMp55nML9+v0hnLVfe+OqPsCMUNiB66FR-VjmTn3pkGSTRw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAG2tMp7M3BpOUOcv6fkOYK=cYvYCWmg3nFrL8QSGBF0JPr5pjg@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAG2tMp5A5AxiYHR4JQ-ECFCy80nsa8-xxYw5gs5vMEfHtHKRgg@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAG2tMp4HdMnuXO7K5OvAie1+f1bsU5_iDg-nEcy=PTvJfV+XFA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAG2tMp6sd1r-FwLWd2SmQTQ-JJJpCPyU9hDKKKkew8symGGtJQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAG2tMp5CmWA9rzgwDpe9XDYbOcKooAq15PrDD1UtorcnPZo--Q@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAG2tMp5VUSFrJJXVXU35VBkY4trmH8K+7yECpnQAvfX7iRF3qQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <ee3edcb5-2e4a-afee-c757-315672195a3a@riseup.net>
 <6ca7e336-02af-d5b9-cb09-51fb250e2fc6@pilobilus.net>
Message-ID: <CAG2tMp6AZyQwn-Gg8_NL5KXP029MTjUEiKureTK88w9AKt=HGg@mail.gmail.com>

Thank you for the references and links, Douglas and Steve.  Muuuaah!!!  :*

I certainly will have fun reading all the suggestions of this thread.  Hope
more people here too, hihi...  :)

Kisses for all of you!  Have a good weekend, dreamers!  <3

-  c.
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From afalex169 at gmail.com  Sat Aug  6 09:42:38 2016
From: afalex169 at gmail.com (=?UTF-8?B?0JDQu9C10LrRgdCw0L3QtNGA?=)
Date: Sat, 6 Aug 2016 19:42:38 +0300
Subject: CryptoParty (+ some great how-tos & list of privacy tools)
Message-ID: <CAEm6Kb+y=hjFgaorjB-1y92f_hdXsiHs270vFnmBwQzmTBn9Rw@mail.gmail.com>

*In case someone doesn't know...*
https://www.cryptoparty.in/

*CryptoParties by location and date:*
https://www.cryptoparty.in/location
https://www.cryptoparty.in/parties/upcoming

___

*Some great crypto/privacy tools:*
https://www.cryptoparty.in/learn/tools

*How-tos*
*:*https://www.cryptoparty.in/learn/how-tos

*And the great handbook. Though outdated a bit**:*
https://www.cryptoparty.in/learn/handbook

Have fun.
A.
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From jdb10987 at yahoo.com  Sat Aug  6 12:56:32 2016
From: jdb10987 at yahoo.com (jim bell)
Date: Sat, 6 Aug 2016 19:56:32 +0000 (UTC)
Subject: Quantum entangled-photon Chinese satellite.
In-Reply-To: <20160806070941.GA2887@x220-a02>
References: <1359771938.2091832.1470347891966.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com>
 <57a3c0a1.84bd370a.2e08f.dde4@mx.google.com>
 <953028539.36755.1470353627925.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com>
 <57a44457.4c64370a.22ed0.1e04@mx.google.com>
 <20160805080713.GE1038@sivokote.iziade.m$>
 <2034279837.11486285.1470387532268.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com>
 <20160805115131.GH1038@sivokote.iziade.m$> <57A4AC72.6000301@riseup.net>
 <20160805181424.GV2570@x220-a02>
 <1097950974.12249609.1470466083106.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com>
 <20160806070941.GA2887@x220-a02>
Message-ID: <243835043.2924486.1470513392322.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com>



 From: Zenaan Harkness <zen at freedbms.net>
>> Therefore, I conclude that it would be easy to measure the minimum
>> effective speed of the  hypothetical interfering particle or wave.
>>  That particle or wave would have to travel 41,000meters in less than
>> 13.7 nanoseconds, to achieve that interference.  Time measurement to
>> 1 nanosecond is easy, to 1 picosecond is doable, and in fact
>> measurement of time valuesfar less than 1 picosecond can be
>> accomplished.

>So it seems to me that information is in fact being transmitted. So I
>can freely philosophize and hopythesize in science fantasy, soon to
>become science fact :)

I find it hard to NOT come to the conclusion that information is, in fact,being transmitted.  The problem is that it appears that nature isconspiring with itself to prevent us from using this communication for usefulpurposes.  
But we can certainly hope that someday, some scientist discovers how to break the barrier that would prevent that.  But even once that barrier is broken,engineering difficulties would still exist.  I can imagine that even though FTLcommunication would then be possible, it could not be set up instantaneouslybetween us, on Earth, and (say) Alpha Centauri    (AC)
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alpha_Centauri   
My first thought was that a space vehicle could be sent to a location midwaybetween us and AC.  Once there, it would generate data streams based on entangledphotons, aimed at us and AC.  Those photons, once emitted, would take 2.1 yearsto arrive at here and AC.  At that point, we can detect those photons, and those onAC could do so as well, at FTL speed.  (Again, assuming that somebody eliminates the barrier to FTL communications we currently see.)
But there's a faster way.  If one of the pairs of entangled photons were kept, in "coldstorage" as it were, the other of the pair could be immediately fired towards AC, andAC could do the same.  After 4.2 years, our photon streams could arrive there, andtheir photon streams could arrive here.  At that point, FTL transmission could begin.
A few years ago, we heard of an experiment lowering the speed of photons to a bid
over 30 mph.  ('c' is 186,282 mph, or 299,000 km/sec).   Later experiments dropped thatvalue to virtually zero.  
Suppose the speed of photons were dropped to 1 millimeter per second,in 4.2 years they would have moved 132,500 meters.  
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Slow_light
http://www.forbes.com/sites/alexknapp/2011/07/07/slowing-the-speed-of-light-to-a-crawl/#11f7f736528f


http://physicsworld.com/cws/article/news/2009/dec/15/slowed-light-breaks-record

Keep those photons stored, and when the Alpha Centaurians detect the other of the pair of entangled photons, that fact could potentially be detected here as well.

But, I just found this:   http://www.bbc.com/news/uk-scotland-glasgow-west-30944584   
WTF!!!!!!
                         Jim Bell  
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From juan.g71 at gmail.com  Sat Aug  6 16:10:33 2016
From: juan.g71 at gmail.com (juan)
Date: Sat, 6 Aug 2016 20:10:33 -0300
Subject: Quantum entangled-photon Chinese satellite.
In-Reply-To: <57A6542C.6040500@riseup.net>
References: <1603947053.11044988.1470329352392.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com>
 <57a3a57f.0703370a.241d8.c3ea@mx.google.com>
 <1359771938.2091832.1470347891966.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com>
 <57a3c0a1.84bd370a.2e08f.dde4@mx.google.com>
 <953028539.36755.1470353627925.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com>
 <57a44457.4c64370a.22ed0.1e04@mx.google.com>
 <20160805080713.GE1038@sivokote.iziade.m$>
 <2034279837.11486285.1470387532268.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com>
 <20160805115131.GH1038@sivokote.iziade.m$>
 <57A4AC72.6000301@riseup.net> <20160805181424.GV2570@x220-a02>
 <57A4EF5F.5000600@riseup.net>
 <57a4f618.44a6370a.38261.bfc0@mx.google.com>
 <57A505A1.6030801@riseup.net>
 <57a641c0.9d3bed0a.49177.6f74@mx.google.com>
 <57A6542C.6040500@riseup.net>
Message-ID: <57a66d65.4224c80a.8c9df.a327@mx.google.com>

On Sat, 6 Aug 2016 15:18:36 -0600
Mirimir <mirimir at riseup.net> wrote:

> On 08/06/2016 02:04 PM, juan wrote:
> > On Fri, 5 Aug 2016 15:31:13 -0600
> > Mirimir <mirimir at riseup.net> wrote:
> > 
> > 
> >>
> >> The problem with classical mechanics is that it's not consistent
> >> with measurements.
> > 
> > 	Not consistent with what measurements?
> 
> The fucking paper that I've cited. 


	OK. Mine was mostly a rhetorical question. Those 'measurements'
	are meaningful only for QM charlatans.

	This is what's going on : 

	You have a 'theory'. You make some 'measurements'. Now when you
	put together your 'theory' and your interpreted(!!)
	'measurements' you come to the conclusion that 'reality' is
	'absurd' or 'magical' or 'weird' or any other similar bullshit.

	You know what the problem is, and why you arrive to those
	conclusions? It is because your FUCKING theory is ABSURD, not
	reality. 

	The problem is the PSEUDO-PHILOSOPHICAL underlying
	assumptions, not 'reality'.


> And more generally, all experiments
> that reject the null hypothesis that the outcome of the CHSH game is
> 75% or less.
> 
> >> Quantum mechanics is. The equations. According to the
> >> Copenhagen interpretation, only the math matters. I don't like it
> >> any more than you seem to. Because I'm not a mathematician.
> > 
> > 	"Only the math matters" doesn't make sense. This might come
> > as a shock, but physics is supposed to 'measure' 'reality'. Then
> > 	the  measured magnitudes may end up in some equations, used
> > to calculate other aspects of...reality. 
> > 
> > 	Like, you measure the volume of object X, you then put
> > 	'volume' and 'density' in a equation, and you get the
> > weight of object X.
> > 
> > 	Math is just a tool that deals with numbers. And numbers
> > 	without units have no physical meaning.
> 
> Quantum mechanics is math. 


	No it isn't. Quantum mechanics is supposedly a branch of
	mechanics which in turn is a branch of PHYSICS. 

	I 'hinted' at the connection between math and physics
	above. Looks like you royally ignored my point.

	Anyway, considering that our premises premises are radically
	different, the discussion is rather pointless. 



> It makes predictions about reality that can
> be tested. By experiments where stuff gets measured.
> 
> The problem is that some predictions of quantum mechanics, such as
> this stuff about entanglement, 1) have been verified experimentally,
> but 2) don't make obvious sense. 


	See above.


> That is, a wave function comprising
> two entangled electrons can apparently collapse instantaneously, even
> though the electrons are arbitrarily far apart. You could try to give
> up light as a universal speed limit. But that creates other paradoxes.


	There are no 'paradoxes' - those are logical flaws in the
	FUCKING theories. 




> 
> >>>> So basically, they find that the classical model of reality is
> >>>> fucked.
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> 	lol lol lol
> >>
> >> You must be a local realist ;)
> > 
> > 
> > 	I of course am a rationalist and a realist. I don't know
> > what 'local realism' is supposed to mean. 
> 
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Principle_of_locality#Local_realism


	My remark was sarcasm. There's only one kind of realism - the
	real one.






> 




From jdb10987 at yahoo.com  Sat Aug  6 13:10:38 2016
From: jdb10987 at yahoo.com (jim bell)
Date: Sat, 6 Aug 2016 20:10:38 +0000 (UTC)
Subject: Quantum entangled-photon Chinese satellite.
In-Reply-To: <20160806080456.GA691@sivokote.iziade.m$>
References: <57a3c0a1.84bd370a.2e08f.dde4@mx.google.com>
 <953028539.36755.1470353627925.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com>
 <57a44457.4c64370a.22ed0.1e04@mx.google.com>
 <20160805080713.GE1038@sivokote.iziade.m$>
 <2034279837.11486285.1470387532268.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com>
 <20160805115131.GH1038@sivokote.iziade.m$> <57A4AC72.6000301@riseup.net>
 <20160805181424.GV2570@x220-a02>
 <1097950974.12249609.1470466083106.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com>
 <20160806070941.GA2887@x220-a02> <20160806080456.GA691@sivokote.iziade.m$>
Message-ID: <432466567.12161938.1470514238133.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com>



 From: Georgi Guninski <guninski at guninski.com>

>Yesterday I asked something very similar: will photons communicate if
>they are on the opposite sides of Earth (or Sun).
Presumably, yes, the matter between the two would be irrelevant., I think.

>To isolate, I would try throwing one of the photons in a Black Hole.
That would be a fascinating experiment!  It would be a way to probe thenature of a black hole.  Generate a stream of entangled photons, throw one pair of each into a black hole, and at a varying delay, and see whatthe detection shows.  One problem might be that the photon thrown intothe black hole can never be 'detected', at least by conventional means.Would there be a detectable result?  Or just random?

>Or "destroy" one of them, but this is close to cheating.
"Destroying" them would be akin to "detecting" them, I suspect, although without actually taking measurements of the results.
            Jim Bell




  
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From juan.g71 at gmail.com  Sat Aug  6 16:13:33 2016
From: juan.g71 at gmail.com (juan)
Date: Sat, 6 Aug 2016 20:13:33 -0300
Subject: Quantum entangled-photon Chinese satellite.
In-Reply-To: <57A656EB.2000505@riseup.net>
References: <1603947053.11044988.1470329352392.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com>
 <57a3a57f.0703370a.241d8.c3ea@mx.google.com>
 <1359771938.2091832.1470347891966.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com>
 <57a3c0a1.84bd370a.2e08f.dde4@mx.google.com>
 <953028539.36755.1470353627925.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com>
 <57a44457.4c64370a.22ed0.1e04@mx.google.com>
 <20160805080713.GE1038@sivokote.iziade.m$>
 <2034279837.11486285.1470387532268.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com>
 <20160805115131.GH1038@sivokote.iziade.m$>
 <57A4AC72.6000301@riseup.net> <20160805181424.GV2570@x220-a02>
 <57A4EF5F.5000600@riseup.net>
 <57a4f618.44a6370a.38261.bfc0@mx.google.com>
 <57A656EB.2000505@riseup.net>
Message-ID: <57a66e18.0c68370a.46d27.a270@mx.google.com>

On Sat, 6 Aug 2016 15:30:19 -0600
Mirimir <mirimir at riseup.net> wrote:

> From
> <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Faster-than-light#Quantum_mechanics>:
> 
> > Certain phenomena in quantum mechanics, such as quantum
> > entanglement, might give the superficial impression of allowing
> > communication of information faster than light. _According to the
> > no-communication theorem these phenomena do not allow true
> > communication; they only let two observers in different locations
> > see the same system simultaneously, without any way of controlling
> > what either sees._ Wavefunction collapse can be viewed as an
> > epiphenomenon of quantum decoherence, which in turn is nothing more
> > than an effect of the underlying local time evolution of the
> > wavefunction of a system and all of its environment. Since the
> > underlying behaviour doesn't violate local causality or allow FTL
> > it follows that neither does the additional effect of wavefunction
> > collapse, whether real or apparent.
> 
> (emphasis added)
> 
> 

---------------

'But how can you control matter?' he burst out. 'You don't even control
the climate or the law of gravity. And there are disease, pain,
death----'

O'Brien silenced him by a movement of his hand. 'We control matter
because we control the mind. Reality is inside the skull. You will
learn by degrees, Winston. There is nothing that we could not do.
Invisibility, levitation--anything. I could float off this floor like a
soap bubble if I wish to. I do not wish to, because the Party does not
wish it. You must get rid of those nineteenth-century ideas about the
laws of Nature. We make the laws of Nature.'

---------------











From jdb10987 at yahoo.com  Sat Aug  6 13:18:37 2016
From: jdb10987 at yahoo.com (jim bell)
Date: Sat, 6 Aug 2016 20:18:37 +0000 (UTC)
Subject: Quantum entangled-photon Chinese satellite.
In-Reply-To: <57A5F608.20905@riseup.net>
References: <1603947053.11044988.1470329352392.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com>
 <57a3a57f.0703370a.241d8.c3ea@mx.google.com>
 <1359771938.2091832.1470347891966.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com>
 <57a3c0a1.84bd370a.2e08f.dde4@mx.google.com>
 <953028539.36755.1470353627925.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com>
 <57a44457.4c64370a.22ed0.1e04@mx.google.com>
 <20160805080713.GE1038@sivokote.iziade.m$>
 <2034279837.11486285.1470387532268.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com>
 <20160805115131.GH1038@sivokote.iziade.m$> <57A4AC72.6000301@riseup.net>
 <20160805181424.GV2570@x220-a02>
 <1097950974.12249609.1470466083106.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com>
 <57A5F608.20905@riseup.net>
Message-ID: <1242861233.12673092.1470514717116.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com>

From: Mirimir <mirimir at riseup.net>

On 08/06/2016 12:48 AM, jim bell wrote:
<SNIP>>> Therefore, I conclude that it would be easy to measure the minimum
>> effective speed of the hypothetical interfering particle or wave.
>> That particle or wave would have to travel 41,000meters in less
>>than 13.7 nanoseconds, to achieve that interference.
OK, so they've shown that reality  (for lack of a better word)
Amusingly, one problem is that not only that we (the disputants) might notbe able to agree on "reality", we may not ourselves be individually ableto decide what "reality" is!!
> cannot be
>both realistic (as in classical mechanics) and locally constrained (as
>in inability of information to travel faster than light speed). But that
>is just what quantum mechanics (a bunch of math) predicts.
>That is, one of realism and locality must be wrong.
>One interpretation is that spacial separation is just an illusion.

For a number of years, we've been hearing about the "holographic principle",the idea what we think of as 3D+time space is actually merely that defined bya 2D representation on a surface. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Holographic_principle   
If I got headaches, this kind of think would definitely give me a headache.
                    Jim Bell


  
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From juan.g71 at gmail.com  Sat Aug  6 16:31:15 2016
From: juan.g71 at gmail.com (juan)
Date: Sat, 6 Aug 2016 20:31:15 -0300
Subject: Quantum entangled-photon Chinese satellite.
In-Reply-To: <57A66F4F.1010005@riseup.net>
References: <20160805080713.GE1038@sivokote.iziade.m$>
 <2034279837.11486285.1470387532268.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com>
 <20160805115131.GH1038@sivokote.iziade.m$>
 <57A4AC72.6000301@riseup.net> <20160805181424.GV2570@x220-a02>
 <57A4EF5F.5000600@riseup.net>
 <57a4f618.44a6370a.38261.bfc0@mx.google.com>
 <57A505A1.6030801@riseup.net>
 <57a641c0.9d3bed0a.49177.6f74@mx.google.com>
 <57A6542C.6040500@riseup.net> <20160806225036.GA2782@x220-a02>
 <57A66F4F.1010005@riseup.net>
Message-ID: <57a6723e.cfd6370a.b8f63.95df@mx.google.com>

On Sat, 6 Aug 2016 17:14:23 -0600
Mirimir <mirimir at riseup.net> wrote:

> On 08/06/2016 04:50 PM, Zenaan Harkness wrote:
> >>> 	Not consistent with what measurements?
> >>
> >> The fucking paper
> > 
> > An impressive piece of paper. New Japanese art form?
> 
> Hensen et al. (2015) Experimental loophole-free violation of a Bell
> inequality using entangled electron spins separated by 1.3 km
> <https://arxiv.org/pdf/1508.05949v1.pdf>


	Can't you get the schroedinger article about zombie cats? Now
	that might be an interesting read. I'm assuming somebody in
	this list must have privileged access to some sort of
	university archive.


	Meanwhile :

	Schroedinger - What is life - 1944

	http://whatislife.stanford.edu/LoCo_files/What-is-Life.pdf

	
	I suggest people take a look at the epilogue where he talks
	about free will and determinism, about his budhist creed, and
	how human are actually immortal god...or something like that.


	









> 




From juan.g71 at gmail.com  Sat Aug  6 16:57:35 2016
From: juan.g71 at gmail.com (juan)
Date: Sat, 6 Aug 2016 20:57:35 -0300
Subject: Quantum entangled-photon Chinese satellite.
In-Reply-To: <57A677C3.7090007@riseup.net>
References: <20160805080713.GE1038@sivokote.iziade.m$>
 <2034279837.11486285.1470387532268.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com>
 <20160805115131.GH1038@sivokote.iziade.m$>
 <57A4AC72.6000301@riseup.net> <20160805181424.GV2570@x220-a02>
 <57A4EF5F.5000600@riseup.net>
 <57a4f618.44a6370a.38261.bfc0@mx.google.com>
 <57A505A1.6030801@riseup.net>
 <57a641c0.9d3bed0a.49177.6f74@mx.google.com>
 <57A6542C.6040500@riseup.net> <20160806225036.GA2782@x220-a02>
 <57A66F4F.1010005@riseup.net>
 <57a6723e.cfd6370a.b8f63.95df@mx.google.com>
 <57A677C3.7090007@riseup.net>
Message-ID: <57a6786e.0220ed0a.4d185.a83e@mx.google.com>

On Sat, 6 Aug 2016 17:50:27 -0600
Mirimir <mirimir at riseup.net> wrote:

> On 08/06/2016 05:31 PM, juan wrote:
> > On Sat, 6 Aug 2016 17:14:23 -0600
> > Mirimir <mirimir at riseup.net> wrote:
> > 
> >> On 08/06/2016 04:50 PM, Zenaan Harkness wrote:
> >>>>> 	Not consistent with what measurements?
> >>>>
> >>>> The fucking paper
> >>>
> >>> An impressive piece of paper. New Japanese art form?
> >>
> >> Hensen et al. (2015) Experimental loophole-free violation of a Bell
> >> inequality using entangled electron spins separated by 1.3 km
> >> <https://arxiv.org/pdf/1508.05949v1.pdf>
> > 
> > 
> > 	Can't you get the schroedinger article about zombie cats?
> > Now that might be an interesting read. I'm assuming somebody in
> > 	this list must have privileged access to some sort of
> > 	university archive.
> 
> The Present Situation in Quantum Mechanics: A Translation of
> Schrödinger's "Cat Paradox" Paper
> <http://www.jstor.org.secure.sci-hub.cc/stable/986572>


	Thanks!!!





From mirimir at riseup.net  Sun Aug  7 00:33:51 2016
From: mirimir at riseup.net (Mirimir)
Date: Sun, 7 Aug 2016 01:33:51 -0600
Subject: Quantum entangled-photon Chinese satellite.
In-Reply-To: <20160807061223.GA688@sivokote.iziade.m$>
References: <953028539.36755.1470353627925.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com>
 <57a44457.4c64370a.22ed0.1e04@mx.google.com>
 <20160805080713.GE1038@sivokote.iziade.m$>
 <2034279837.11486285.1470387532268.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com>
 <20160805115131.GH1038@sivokote.iziade.m$> <57A4AC72.6000301@riseup.net>
 <20160805181424.GV2570@x220-a02> <57A4EF5F.5000600@riseup.net>
 <57a4f618.44a6370a.38261.bfc0@mx.google.com> <57A656EB.2000505@riseup.net>
 <20160807061223.GA688@sivokote.iziade.m$>
Message-ID: <4d274c25-61fe-73cc-9506-a761172c8033@riseup.net>

On 08/07/2016 12:12 AM, Georgi Guninski wrote:
> On Sat, Aug 06, 2016 at 03:30:19PM -0600, Mirimir wrote:
>> >From <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Faster-than-light#Quantum_mechanics>:
>>
>>> information faster than light. _According to the no-communication
>>> theorem these phenomena do not allow true communication; they only
> 
> Thanks for the explanations and the papers.
> 
> Where is the bug in Zenaan's idea about array of photons and
> Observed + Not Observed = 1 bit?

I think that's the next bit that you didn't quote:

> they only let two observers in different locations see the
> same system simultaneously, without any way of controlling
> what either sees.

You can establish that both observers saw an entangled wave function
collapse, after the fact. But before the wave function collapses,
neither one can know what they'll see, and so they also can't know what
the other will see.




From jdb10987 at yahoo.com  Sun Aug  7 00:48:37 2016
From: jdb10987 at yahoo.com (jim bell)
Date: Sun, 7 Aug 2016 07:48:37 +0000 (UTC)
Subject: Quantum entangled-photon Chinese satellite.
In-Reply-To: <20160807073938.GD688@sivokote.iziade.m$>
References: <57a44457.4c64370a.22ed0.1e04@mx.google.com>
 <20160805080713.GE1038@sivokote.iziade.m$>
 <2034279837.11486285.1470387532268.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com>
 <20160805115131.GH1038@sivokote.iziade.m$> <57A4AC72.6000301@riseup.net>
 <20160805181424.GV2570@x220-a02>
 <1097950974.12249609.1470466083106.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com>
 <20160806070941.GA2887@x220-a02> <20160806080456.GA691@sivokote.iziade.m$>
 <432466567.12161938.1470514238133.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com>
 <20160807073938.GD688@sivokote.iziade.m$>
Message-ID: <705488118.12273309.1470556117309.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com>



 From: Georgi Guninski <guninski at guninski.com>
On Sat, Aug 06, 2016 at 08:10:38PM +0000, jim bell wrote:
> >To isolate, I would try throwing one of the photons in a Black Hole.
>> That would be a fascinating experiment!  It would be a way to probe thenature of a black hole.  Generate a stream of entangled photons, >>throw one pair of each into a black hole, and at a varying delay, and see whatthe detection shows.  One problem might be that the photon >>thrown intothe black hole can never be 'detected', at least by conventional means.Would there be a detectable result?  Or just random?
>lol, I was partially joking. AFAICT such experiment can't be made by
> humans in the foreseeable future.

Technological achievement is accelerating, at an accelerating rate!  For homework,listen carefully to a song from Zager and Evans, "In the year 2525". https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yesyhQkYrQM
 Last time I listened to it, a few years ago, I noticed that the lyrics which amounted to predictions were occurring at a rate perhaps 100x faster than the lyrics defined them as happening.
Still, Earth probably won't be near a black hole in the foreseeable future...we hope.
              Jim Bell

  
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From zen at freedbms.net  Sat Aug  6 15:50:36 2016
From: zen at freedbms.net (Zenaan Harkness)
Date: Sun, 7 Aug 2016 08:50:36 +1000
Subject: Quantum entangled-photon Chinese satellite.
In-Reply-To: <57A6542C.6040500@riseup.net>
References: <20160805080713.GE1038@sivokote.iziade.m$>
 <2034279837.11486285.1470387532268.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com>
 <20160805115131.GH1038@sivokote.iziade.m$>
 <57A4AC72.6000301@riseup.net> <20160805181424.GV2570@x220-a02>
 <57A4EF5F.5000600@riseup.net>
 <57a4f618.44a6370a.38261.bfc0@mx.google.com>
 <57A505A1.6030801@riseup.net>
 <57a641c0.9d3bed0a.49177.6f74@mx.google.com>
 <57A6542C.6040500@riseup.net>
Message-ID: <20160806225036.GA2782@x220-a02>

> > 	Not consistent with what measurements?
> 
> The fucking paper

An impressive piece of paper. New Japanese art form?




From zen at freedbms.net  Sat Aug  6 15:53:25 2016
From: zen at freedbms.net (Zenaan Harkness)
Date: Sun, 7 Aug 2016 08:53:25 +1000
Subject: Quantum entangled-photon Chinese satellite.
In-Reply-To: <57A6542C.6040500@riseup.net>
References: <20160805080713.GE1038@sivokote.iziade.m$>
 <2034279837.11486285.1470387532268.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com>
 <20160805115131.GH1038@sivokote.iziade.m$>
 <57A4AC72.6000301@riseup.net> <20160805181424.GV2570@x220-a02>
 <57A4EF5F.5000600@riseup.net>
 <57a4f618.44a6370a.38261.bfc0@mx.google.com>
 <57A505A1.6030801@riseup.net>
 <57a641c0.9d3bed0a.49177.6f74@mx.google.com>
 <57A6542C.6040500@riseup.net>
Message-ID: <20160806225325.GB2782@x220-a02>

On Sat, Aug 06, 2016 at 03:18:36PM -0600, Mirimir wrote:
> On 08/06/2016 02:04 PM, juan wrote:
> > On Fri, 5 Aug 2016 15:31:13 -0600
> > Mirimir <mirimir at riseup.net> wrote:
> > 	Math is just a tool that deals with numbers. And numbers
> > 	without units have no physical meaning.
> 
> Quantum mechanics is math. It makes predictions about reality that can
> be tested. By experiments where stuff gets measured.
> 
> The problem is that some predictions of quantum mechanics, such as this
> stuff about entanglement, 1) have been verified experimentally, but 2)
> don't make obvious sense. That is, a wave function comprising two
> entangled electrons can apparently collapse instantaneously, even though
> the electrons are arbitrarily far apart. You could try to give up light
> as a universal speed limit. But that creates other paradoxes.

Sound. Light.

Bah humbug! Next thing they'll be telling us that thought is the
universal speed limit.




From zen at freedbms.net  Sat Aug  6 15:55:41 2016
From: zen at freedbms.net (Zenaan Harkness)
Date: Sun, 7 Aug 2016 08:55:41 +1000
Subject: Quantum entangled-photon Chinese satellite.
In-Reply-To: <57A656EB.2000505@riseup.net>
References: <953028539.36755.1470353627925.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com>
 <57a44457.4c64370a.22ed0.1e04@mx.google.com>
 <20160805080713.GE1038@sivokote.iziade.m$>
 <2034279837.11486285.1470387532268.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com>
 <20160805115131.GH1038@sivokote.iziade.m$>
 <57A4AC72.6000301@riseup.net> <20160805181424.GV2570@x220-a02>
 <57A4EF5F.5000600@riseup.net>
 <57a4f618.44a6370a.38261.bfc0@mx.google.com>
 <57A656EB.2000505@riseup.net>
Message-ID: <20160806225541.GC2782@x220-a02>

On Sat, Aug 06, 2016 at 03:30:19PM -0600, Mirimir wrote:
> >From <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Faster-than-light#Quantum_mechanics>:
> 
> > Certain phenomena in quantum mechanics, such as quantum entanglement,
> > might give the superficial impression of allowing communication of
> > information faster than light. _According to the no-communication
> > theorem these phenomena do not allow true communication; they only
> > let two observers in different locations see the same system
> > simultaneously, without any way of controlling what either sees._
> > Wavefunction collapse can be viewed as an epiphenomenon of quantum
> > decoherence, which in turn is nothing more than an effect of the
> > underlying local time evolution of the wavefunction of a system
> > and all of its environment. Since the underlying behaviour
> > doesn't violate local causality or allow FTL it follows that
> > neither does the additional effect of wavefunction collapse,
> > whether real or apparent.

And of course storing entangled photonic pairs in separate gold photon
cages will blow that stupid -theory- out of the water.

Like duh!




From guninski at guninski.com  Sat Aug  6 23:12:23 2016
From: guninski at guninski.com (Georgi Guninski)
Date: Sun, 7 Aug 2016 09:12:23 +0300
Subject: Quantum entangled-photon Chinese satellite.
In-Reply-To: <57A656EB.2000505@riseup.net>
References: <953028539.36755.1470353627925.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com>
 <57a44457.4c64370a.22ed0.1e04@mx.google.com>
 <20160805080713.GE1038@sivokote.iziade.m$>
 <2034279837.11486285.1470387532268.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com>
 <20160805115131.GH1038@sivokote.iziade.m$>
 <57A4AC72.6000301@riseup.net> <20160805181424.GV2570@x220-a02>
 <57A4EF5F.5000600@riseup.net>
 <57a4f618.44a6370a.38261.bfc0@mx.google.com>
 <57A656EB.2000505@riseup.net>
Message-ID: <20160807061223.GA688@sivokote.iziade.m$>

On Sat, Aug 06, 2016 at 03:30:19PM -0600, Mirimir wrote:
> >From <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Faster-than-light#Quantum_mechanics>:
> 
> > information faster than light. _According to the no-communication
> > theorem these phenomena do not allow true communication; they only

Thanks for the explanations and the papers.

Where is the bug in Zenaan's idea about array of photons and
Observed + Not Observed = 1 bit?




From guninski at guninski.com  Sat Aug  6 23:26:06 2016
From: guninski at guninski.com (Georgi Guninski)
Date: Sun, 7 Aug 2016 09:26:06 +0300
Subject: Quantum entangled-photon Chinese satellite.
In-Reply-To: <57a66d65.4224c80a.8c9df.a327@mx.google.com>
References: <2034279837.11486285.1470387532268.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com>
 <20160805115131.GH1038@sivokote.iziade.m$>
 <57A4AC72.6000301@riseup.net> <20160805181424.GV2570@x220-a02>
 <57A4EF5F.5000600@riseup.net>
 <57a4f618.44a6370a.38261.bfc0@mx.google.com>
 <57A505A1.6030801@riseup.net>
 <57a641c0.9d3bed0a.49177.6f74@mx.google.com>
 <57A6542C.6040500@riseup.net>
 <57a66d65.4224c80a.8c9df.a327@mx.google.com>
Message-ID: <20160807062606.GB688@sivokote.iziade.m$>

On Sat, Aug 06, 2016 at 08:10:33PM -0300, juan wrote:
> 	My remark was sarcasm. There's only one kind of realism - the
> 	real one.

In art there is Magic Realism:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Magic_realism

I like most of these paintings:
http://www.sapergalleries.com/Gonsalves.html




From zen at freedbms.net  Sat Aug  6 16:54:11 2016
From: zen at freedbms.net (Zenaan Harkness)
Date: Sun, 7 Aug 2016 09:54:11 +1000
Subject: [RUS] Why everything you think you know about Russia is wrong
Message-ID: <20160806235411.GH2782@x220-a02>

Why everything you think you know about Russia is wrong
http://theduran.com/5-questions-peter-lavelle-just-everything-think-know-russia-wrong-part-1/

"Russia functions as everything negative the west refuses to see in
itself."




From guninski at guninski.com  Sun Aug  7 00:39:38 2016
From: guninski at guninski.com (Georgi Guninski)
Date: Sun, 7 Aug 2016 10:39:38 +0300
Subject: Quantum entangled-photon Chinese satellite.
In-Reply-To: <432466567.12161938.1470514238133.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com>
References: <57a44457.4c64370a.22ed0.1e04@mx.google.com>
 <20160805080713.GE1038@sivokote.iziade.m$>
 <2034279837.11486285.1470387532268.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com>
 <20160805115131.GH1038@sivokote.iziade.m$>
 <57A4AC72.6000301@riseup.net> <20160805181424.GV2570@x220-a02>
 <1097950974.12249609.1470466083106.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com>
 <20160806070941.GA2887@x220-a02>
 <20160806080456.GA691@sivokote.iziade.m$>
 <432466567.12161938.1470514238133.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <20160807073938.GD688@sivokote.iziade.m$>

On Sat, Aug 06, 2016 at 08:10:38PM +0000, jim bell wrote:
> >To isolate, I would try throwing one of the photons in a Black Hole.
> That would be a fascinating experiment!  It would be a way to probe thenature of a black hole.  Generate a stream of entangled photons, throw one pair of each into a black hole, and at a varying delay, and see whatthe detection shows.  One problem might be that the photon thrown intothe black hole can never be 'detected', at least by conventional means.Would there be a detectable result?  Or just random?
> 

lol, I was partially joking. AFAICT such experiment can't be made by
humans in the foreseeable future.

Isn't there software simulator for entangled stuff? It appears doable
(not counting getting really fast).




From mirimir at riseup.net  Sun Aug  7 10:23:55 2016
From: mirimir at riseup.net (Mirimir)
Date: Sun, 7 Aug 2016 11:23:55 -0600
Subject: Quantum entangled-photon Chinese satellite.
In-Reply-To: <20160807103434.GI2782@x220-a02>
References: <20160805080713.GE1038@sivokote.iziade.m$>
 <2034279837.11486285.1470387532268.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com>
 <20160805115131.GH1038@sivokote.iziade.m$> <57A4AC72.6000301@riseup.net>
 <20160805181424.GV2570@x220-a02> <57A4EF5F.5000600@riseup.net>
 <57a4f618.44a6370a.38261.bfc0@mx.google.com> <57A656EB.2000505@riseup.net>
 <20160807061223.GA688@sivokote.iziade.m$>
 <4d274c25-61fe-73cc-9506-a761172c8033@riseup.net>
 <20160807103434.GI2782@x220-a02>
Message-ID: <2d2c14cd-3fc0-defb-98d3-13777ba95b99@riseup.net>

On 08/07/2016 04:34 AM, Zenaan Harkness wrote:
> On Sun, Aug 07, 2016 at 01:33:51AM -0600, Mirimir wrote:
>> On 08/07/2016 12:12 AM, Georgi Guninski wrote:
>>> On Sat, Aug 06, 2016 at 03:30:19PM -0600, Mirimir wrote:
>>>> >From <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Faster-than-light#Quantum_mechanics>:
>>>>
>>>>> information faster than light. _According to the no-communication
>>>>> theorem these phenomena do not allow true communication; they only
>>>
>>> Thanks for the explanations and the papers.
>>>
>>> Where is the bug in Zenaan's idea about array of photons and
>>> Observed + Not Observed = 1 bit?
>>
>> I think that's the next bit that you didn't quote:
>>
>>> they only let two observers in different locations see the
>>> same system simultaneously, without any way of controlling
>>> what either sees.
>>
>> You can establish that both observers saw an entangled wave function
>> collapse, after the fact. But before the wave function collapses,
>> neither one can know what they'll see, and so they also can't know what
>> the other will see.
> 
> But, apparently, they can predict what the other will see with > 85%
> accuracy, whilst theory says they should only be able to do so with 75%
> accuracy.

No, there's no "prediction". They can discover later that both sides saw
the expected spins. It's vaguely like you're flipping coins, and someone
on Mars is also flipping coins. And later you share notes, and find that
you both got more or less the same sequence of heads and tails. Not
perfect, but substantially better than chance. But neither side can
choose the order of heads and tails, so they can't create messages.

> So, each side tests their respective entangled photon (85% certainty of
> what the other side saw), then does it all again (another 85%), giving:
> 85% + 85% = 169% probability that each will "guess" what the other side
> saw! That sounds pretty close to certainty to me...

It's entangled electrons in diamonds, not photons. And you can only test
each pair of entangled electrons once. Because after that, they're no
longer entangled.

> PS: I'm sure someone can do the math better than I... but hopefully you
> get the idea - each side "simultaneously" 'observes' their 'half' of an
> entangled photon pair, say each second, and use these to reduce the
> uncertainty, thereby reaching "1 bit" of information transfer...

As I understand it, no information transfer is possible.




From mirimir at riseup.net  Sun Aug  7 16:39:58 2016
From: mirimir at riseup.net (Mirimir)
Date: Sun, 7 Aug 2016 17:39:58 -0600
Subject: Quantum entangled-photon Chinese satellite.
In-Reply-To: <57a7bfc7.ca2fc80a.fdf8b.47e8@mx.google.com>
References: <20160805080713.GE1038@sivokote.iziade.m$>
 <2034279837.11486285.1470387532268.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com>
 <20160805115131.GH1038@sivokote.iziade.m$> <57A4AC72.6000301@riseup.net>
 <20160805181424.GV2570@x220-a02> <57A4EF5F.5000600@riseup.net>
 <57a4f618.44a6370a.38261.bfc0@mx.google.com> <57A505A1.6030801@riseup.net>
 <57a641c0.9d3bed0a.49177.6f74@mx.google.com> <57A6542C.6040500@riseup.net>
 <20160806225036.GA2782@x220-a02> <57A66F4F.1010005@riseup.net>
 <57a6723e.cfd6370a.b8f63.95df@mx.google.com> <57A677C3.7090007@riseup.net>
 <57a7bfc7.ca2fc80a.fdf8b.47e8@mx.google.com>
Message-ID: <44e8830c-21e3-80e0-b0d5-5809fc95ffc6@riseup.net>

On 08/07/2016 05:14 PM, juan wrote:
> On Sat, 6 Aug 2016 17:50:27 -0600
> Mirimir <mirimir at riseup.net> wrote:
> 
>> The Present Situation in Quantum Mechanics: A Translation of
>> Schrödinger's "Cat Paradox" Paper
>> <http://www.jstor.org.secure.sci-hub.cc/stable/986572>
> 
> 
> 	So, the zombie cat is indeed a reductio-ad-absurdum of sorts
> 	(the translator uses the word 'ridiculous') and schroedinger's
> 	view is less stupid and crazy than what vulgar QM
> 	'philosophers' believe. At least as far as
> 	'blurring' ('superposition') goes. 
> 
> 	On the other hand he does present a rather retarded 'rejection'
> 	of 'naive realism'...justified by 'epistemology' (hahaha). Which
> 	of course means that what the mainstream calls QM is not physics
> 	but pseudo-philosophy. 

No, QM is a mathematical structure
<https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mathematical_formulation_of_quantum_mechanics>.
And according to the instrumentalist interpretation
<https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Interpretations_of_quantum_mechanics#Instrumentalist_interpretation>
the rest is indeed just pseudo-philosophy aka bullshit.

<SNIP>




From juan.g71 at gmail.com  Sun Aug  7 16:14:24 2016
From: juan.g71 at gmail.com (juan)
Date: Sun, 7 Aug 2016 20:14:24 -0300
Subject: Quantum entangled-photon Chinese satellite.
In-Reply-To: <57A677C3.7090007@riseup.net>
References: <20160805080713.GE1038@sivokote.iziade.m$>
 <2034279837.11486285.1470387532268.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com>
 <20160805115131.GH1038@sivokote.iziade.m$>
 <57A4AC72.6000301@riseup.net> <20160805181424.GV2570@x220-a02>
 <57A4EF5F.5000600@riseup.net>
 <57a4f618.44a6370a.38261.bfc0@mx.google.com>
 <57A505A1.6030801@riseup.net>
 <57a641c0.9d3bed0a.49177.6f74@mx.google.com>
 <57A6542C.6040500@riseup.net> <20160806225036.GA2782@x220-a02>
 <57A66F4F.1010005@riseup.net>
 <57a6723e.cfd6370a.b8f63.95df@mx.google.com>
 <57A677C3.7090007@riseup.net>
Message-ID: <57a7bfc7.ca2fc80a.fdf8b.47e8@mx.google.com>

On Sat, 6 Aug 2016 17:50:27 -0600
Mirimir <mirimir at riseup.net> wrote:

> The Present Situation in Quantum Mechanics: A Translation of
> Schrödinger's "Cat Paradox" Paper
> <http://www.jstor.org.secure.sci-hub.cc/stable/986572>


	So, the zombie cat is indeed a reductio-ad-absurdum of sorts
	(the translator uses the word 'ridiculous') and schroedinger's
	view is less stupid and crazy than what vulgar QM
	'philosophers' believe. At least as far as
	'blurring' ('superposition') goes. 

	On the other hand he does present a rather retarded 'rejection'
	of 'naive realism'...justified by 'epistemology' (hahaha). Which
	of course means that what the mainstream calls QM is not physics
	but pseudo-philosophy. 

--------------------



5. Are the Variables Really Blurred?

The other alternative consisted of granting reality
 only to the momentarily sharp determining parts-
or in more general terms to each variable a sort of
 realization just corresponding to the quantum me
chanical statistics of this variable at the relevant 
moment.


That it is in fact not impossible to express the
degree and kind of blurring of all variables in one
perfectly clear concept follows at once from the fact
that Q.M. as a matter of fact has and uses such an
instrument,  the so-called wave function or psi-function,
also called system vector. Much more is to be said
about it further on. That it is an abstract, unintuitive 
mathematical construct is a scruple that almost always
surfaces against new aids to thought and that carries
no great message. At all events it is an imagined
entity that images the blurring of all variables at
every moment just as clearly and faithfully as the
classical model does its sharp numerical values. Its
equation of motion too, the law of its time variation,
so long as the system is left undisturbed, lags not one
iota, in clarity and determinacy, behind the equations
of motion of the classical model. So the latter could
be straight-forwardly  replaced by the psi-function, so
long as the blurring is confined to atomic scale, not
open to direct control. In fact the function has pro-
vided quite intuitive and convenient ideas, for in-
stance the "cloud of negative electricity" around the
nucleus, etc. But serious misgivings arise if one
notices that the uncertainty affects macroscopically
tangible and visible things, for which the term"blur-
ring" seems simply wrong. The state of a radioactive
nucleus is presumably blurred in such degree and
fashion that neither the instant of decay nor the
direction, in which the emitted a-particle leaves the
nucleus, is well-established. Inside the nucleus, blur-
ring doesn't bother us. The emerging particle is
described, if one wants to explain intuitively, as a
spherical wave that continuously emanates in all di-
rections from the nucleus and that impinges continu
ously on a surrounding  luminescent screen over its
full expanse. The screen however does not show a 
more or less constant uniform surface glow,but rather
lights up at one instant at one spot, or, to honor the
truth, it lights up now here, now there, for it is im-
possible to do the experiment with only a single radio-
active atom. If in place of the luminescent screen 
one uses a spatially extended detector, perhaps a gas
that is ionised by the a-particles, one finds the ion 
pairs arranged along rectilinear columns that project 
backwards on to the bit of radioactive matter from
which the a-radiation comes (C.T.R. Wilson's cloud
chamber tracks, made visible by drops of moisture
condensed on the ions).


One can even set up quite ridiculous cases. A cat 
is penned up in a steel chamber, along with the fol
lowing diabolical device (which must be secured
against direct interference by the cat): in a Geiger
counter there is a tiny bit of radioactive substance, so 
small, that perhaps in the course of one hour one of
the atoms decays, but also, with equal probability,
perhaps none; if it happens, the counter tube dis- 
charges and through a relay releases a hammer which
shatters a small flask of hydrocyanic acid. If one
has left this entire system to itself for an hour, one
would say that the cat still lives if meanwhile no atom
has decayed. The first atomic decay would have
poisoned it. The psi-function of the entire system 
would express this by having in it the living and the
dead cat (pardon the expression) mixed or smeared
out in equal parts.


It is typical of these cases that an indeterminacy 
originally restricted to the atomic domain becomes
transformed into macroscopic indeterminacy, which
can then be resolved by direct observation. That 
prevents us from so naively accepting as valid a 
"blurred model" for representing reality


---------------












	 

	
	









> 
> > 	Meanwhile :
> > 
> > 	Schroedinger - What is life - 1944
> > 
> > 	http://whatislife.stanford.edu/LoCo_files/What-is-Life.pdf
> > 
> > 	
> > 	I suggest people take a look at the epilogue where he talks
> > 	about free will and determinism, about his budhist creed,
> > and how human are actually immortal god...or something like that.
> > 
> > 
> > 	
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > 
> >>
> > 
> > 





From zen at freedbms.net  Sun Aug  7 03:34:34 2016
From: zen at freedbms.net (Zenaan Harkness)
Date: Sun, 7 Aug 2016 20:34:34 +1000
Subject: Quantum entangled-photon Chinese satellite.
In-Reply-To: <4d274c25-61fe-73cc-9506-a761172c8033@riseup.net>
References: <20160805080713.GE1038@sivokote.iziade.m$>
 <2034279837.11486285.1470387532268.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com>
 <20160805115131.GH1038@sivokote.iziade.m$>
 <57A4AC72.6000301@riseup.net> <20160805181424.GV2570@x220-a02>
 <57A4EF5F.5000600@riseup.net>
 <57a4f618.44a6370a.38261.bfc0@mx.google.com>
 <57A656EB.2000505@riseup.net>
 <20160807061223.GA688@sivokote.iziade.m$>
 <4d274c25-61fe-73cc-9506-a761172c8033@riseup.net>
Message-ID: <20160807103434.GI2782@x220-a02>

On Sun, Aug 07, 2016 at 01:33:51AM -0600, Mirimir wrote:
> On 08/07/2016 12:12 AM, Georgi Guninski wrote:
> > On Sat, Aug 06, 2016 at 03:30:19PM -0600, Mirimir wrote:
> >> >From <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Faster-than-light#Quantum_mechanics>:
> >>
> >>> information faster than light. _According to the no-communication
> >>> theorem these phenomena do not allow true communication; they only
> > 
> > Thanks for the explanations and the papers.
> > 
> > Where is the bug in Zenaan's idea about array of photons and
> > Observed + Not Observed = 1 bit?
> 
> I think that's the next bit that you didn't quote:
> 
> > they only let two observers in different locations see the
> > same system simultaneously, without any way of controlling
> > what either sees.
> 
> You can establish that both observers saw an entangled wave function
> collapse, after the fact. But before the wave function collapses,
> neither one can know what they'll see, and so they also can't know what
> the other will see.

But, apparently, they can predict what the other will see with > 85%
accuracy, whilst theory says they should only be able to do so with 75%
accuracy.

So, each side tests their respective entangled photon (85% certainty of
what the other side saw), then does it all again (another 85%), giving:
85% + 85% = 169% probability that each will "guess" what the other side
saw! That sounds pretty close to certainty to me...

PS: I'm sure someone can do the math better than I... but hopefully you
get the idea - each side "simultaneously" 'observes' their 'half' of an
entangled photon pair, say each second, and use these to reduce the
uncertainty, thereby reaching "1 bit" of information transfer...




From zen at freedbms.net  Sun Aug  7 05:16:03 2016
From: zen at freedbms.net (Zenaan Harkness)
Date: Sun, 7 Aug 2016 22:16:03 +1000
Subject: [WAR] Julian Assange: 1,700 Hillary Clinton emails prove she sold
 weapons to ISIS in Syria
Message-ID: <20160807121603.GK2782@x220-a02>

War, war, war . . . and more war!

And anyway, what's the problem with a few 10s of thousands of weapons to
moderate child-head chopping wahhabi islamists anyway?!!

Tell me --that--, hey?!!

Bah ... sovereign nations and all that international law shite - just
who do they (anyone who's not the USA) -think- they are?!!!!!
Running elections just like the USA, selling oil just like the USA,
maintaining multi-decade relationships with their Russian partners just
like the USA ...  whoops, ahh, may be not that one - perhaps there's a
problem there... now you just can't go running around for decades
pretending you are national friends with Russia now, can you?

Surely not?

That would be like, treason to the hegemony or something. Well at least
the CIA are professionals at running coups, overturning governments and
all that - never miss a Turkish beat I hear, hint hint, nudge nudge -
but don't go telling anyone now, snigger snigger...

What? "Our" coups are starting to not succeed you tell me? Like, as in,
fail like?


  W  T  F ??? !> !!? ? !@# !@#??!@#?!@# !@!! ?? B????? 


AAAAARRRRRRGHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHAAAWWWWWWSSSSSSSHHHHHHHHIIIIIIIIIIT!!!!!


Guess our last chance for world war 3 is the South China Sea then eh?

(Psst, don't go telling anyone now, heh!)





Julian Assange says “1,700 emails in Hillary Clinton’s collection”
proves she sold weapons to ISIS in Syria
http://theduran.com/julian-assange-says-1700-emails-hillary-clintons-collection-proves-sold-weapons-isis-syria/




From zen at freedbms.net  Sun Aug  7 06:41:11 2016
From: zen at freedbms.net (Zenaan Harkness)
Date: Sun, 7 Aug 2016 23:41:11 +1000
Subject: justice, USA style: Personal Interview with US-designated Arms
 Dealer Reveals Torture and Secret Prisons
Message-ID: <20160807134111.GL2782@x220-a02>

Every last shred of honour, egalite and any semblance of 'the rule of
law' has been irrevocably burned by North American government employees,
military employees, justice department employees, 'diplomats' and
politicians.

The truth steadily comes out these days, for this much we can be
grateful.



Personal Interview with US-designated Arms Dealer Reveals Torture and Secret
Prisons
http://journal-neo.org/2016/08/06/personal-interview-with-us-designated-arms-dealer-reveals-torture-and-secret-prisons/




From zen at freedbms.net  Sun Aug  7 06:58:01 2016
From: zen at freedbms.net (Zenaan Harkness)
Date: Sun, 7 Aug 2016 23:58:01 +1000
Subject: [WAR] The ministry of truth: NATO liberation of Libya, 2011
Message-ID: <20160807135801.GM2782@x220-a02>

If the following were not true, we'd be incredulous that someone would
propose such an unbelievable and lame movie plot.

Sadly, this is what North America and NATO stand for.




I Thought NATO “Liberated” Libya in 2011?
http://journal-neo.org/2016/08/04/i-thought-nato-liberated-libya-in-2011/

“Operation Unified Protector is one of the most successful in NATO’s
history… We have done this together for the people of Libya, so they can
take their future firmly and safely into their own hands. Libyans have
now liberated their country. And they have transformed the region. This
is their victory” - Former NATO Secretary General, Anders Fogh
Rasmussen, speaking in October, 2011.
http://www.nato.int/cps/en/natolive/news_80052.htm

“In Libya, the death of Muammar al-Qaddafi showed that our role in
protecting the Libyan people, and helping them break free from a tyrant,
was the right thing to do” – US President, Barack Obama, speakingin
October, 2011.
http://www.reuters.com/article/us-obama-foreignpolicy-idUSTRE79L0MH20111023

“I am proud to stand here on the soil of a free Tripoli and on behalf of
the American people I congratulate Libya. This is Libya’s moment, this
is Libya’s victory, the future belongs to you” – Former US Secretary of
State and Democratic Nominee for President, Hillary Clinton, speaking in
October, 2011.
https://www.alarabiya.net/articles/2011/10/19/172519.html

On August the 1st, US warplanes bombed Islamic State (IS/ISIS/ISIL)
targets in the Libyan city of Sirte, almost exactly five years after
Western imperialists declared NATO’s 2011 war in Libya a complete
success.
http://journal-neo.org/2015/10/17/nato-s-humanitarian-intervention-in-libya-exacerbated-humanitarian-suffering/

These strikes are not the first conducted by the US in Libya this year,
in a broader campaign that is officially aimed at defeating an enemy
that the US had a major hand in creating in the first place (I’m sure
the military-industrial complex isn’t complaining however).

Peter Cook, the Pentagon’s Press Secretary, said in a statement released
on the 1st of August in relation to the strikes that:
http://www.defense.gov/News/News-Releases/News-Release-View/Article/881794/statement-by-pentagon-press-secretary-peter-cook-on-us-air-strike-in-libya
“Today, at the request of the Libyan Government of National Accord
(GNA), the United States military conducted precision air strikes [which
is Orwellian/Pentagon-speak for dropping bombs (not uncommonly on
civilians)] against ISIL targets in Sirte, Libya, to support
GNA-affiliated forces seeking to defeat ISIL in its primary stronghold
in Libya… The U.S. stands with the international community in supporting
the GNA as it strives to restore stability and security to Libya.”

Wait a minute though, have I missed something? I thought Libya was
“liberated” in 2011 and the country is now a beacon of ‘freedom and
democracy’ for the Middle East and North Africa? Are the Libyan people
not enjoying being “free from a tyrant;” similar to the liberty the
Syrian people will experience if Assad the ‘tyrant’ is overthrown and
the country is handed over to al-Qaeda?

Since the future belonged to the Libyan people in 2011, is the country
not a vibrant and prosperous democracy today? Is Libya not one of the
major hubs of the Mediterranean, with trade booming and flocks of
tourists travelling from across the world to sample the delights of the
country – from the fascinating culture of the indigenous people to the
stunning (I must admit) Roman ruins?

I thought the standard of living for the average Libyan was much higher
than it was before the tyrant was deposed? Is Libya not helping to build
the African continent up to try and alleviate the millions of people who
live in poverty?

I thought the “most successful” campaign in NATO’s history meant that
terrorism could not gain a foothold in the country, considering the
Western alliance spends the majority of its time (after antagonising
Russia that is) talking about fighting terrorism? I thought NATO’s
love-bombs only hit the baddies, and never killed or maimed any
civilians?

Are the Libyan people not enjoying the fruits of another Western foreign
policy success story? Are the Libyan people not enjoying the stability
that always follows a Western war of aggression? I thought the Libyan
“kinetic military action” was yet another triumphant imperial endeavour,
just like Afghanistan, Iraq and the numerous other countries that were
lucky to be the targets of Western ‘humanitarian’ forces?

Steven MacMillan is an independent writer, researcher, geopolitical
analyst and editor of  The Analyst Report,
http://www.theanalystreport.net/
especially for the online magazine “New Eastern Outlook”.
http://journal-neo.org/




From zen at freedbms.net  Sun Aug  7 07:10:16 2016
From: zen at freedbms.net (Zenaan Harkness)
Date: Mon, 8 Aug 2016 00:10:16 +1000
Subject: Conclusion - Re: IAAF, USA and Canada demand Russian athletes
 represent "no country" at Olympic games
In-Reply-To: <20160726000134.GA7495@x220-a02>
References: <20160719120241.GW16437@x220-a02> <20160726000134.GA7495@x220-a02>
Message-ID: <20160807141016.GN2782@x220-a02>

Another update:

Rio 2016: Russia's first Gold
http://www.pravdareport.com/news/society/07-08-2016/135245-russia_gold-0/

"
Non-Russians can be found guilty of doping and compete at the Olympic
Games while Russian athletes who have never taken any illegal substances
are banned arbitrarily under a blanket ban excluding them from
competing.
"




From zen at freedbms.net  Sun Aug  7 07:48:52 2016
From: zen at freedbms.net (Zenaan Harkness)
Date: Mon, 8 Aug 2016 00:48:52 +1000
Subject: [RUS] CCP 95th speech: "in ten years, the key to the new world order
 will be the tandem of Russia and China" -- Chairman Xi Jinping
Message-ID: <20160807144852.GO2782@x220-a02>

The new world order may be all over but the shouting - as long as the
dying USA hegemonic dragon does not manage to instigate World War 3!


The Chinese may be upping their diplomatic subtlety, and anyway,
truth is what it is.


Also, I note the stark difference between China's almost but did not
happen naval support of Russia in respect of the USA instigated Syrian
crisis, yet recently in the South China Sea, Russia has pledged to join
China in joint South China Sea naval exercises.

Russia, at least under Putin, certainly demonstrates loyalty, which is a
rare thing at a governmental level in the modern Western democratic
fascist nations world we have lived in for substantial time now...


It will be interesting to see how China conducts herself in the coming
century or more, as a primary economic (and soon enough military) global
power. The Chinese are very present to their most recent "century of
humiliation" as they call it, and so their test is how they handle their
power in the face of their history. One can hope they learn their
diplomacy from Russia rather than the USA of course.


Interesting times..



China openly offers Russia an alliance against NATO
http://www.fort-russ.com/2016/08/china-openly-offers-russia-alliance.html




From grarpamp at gmail.com  Mon Aug  8 00:07:58 2016
From: grarpamp at gmail.com (grarpamp)
Date: Mon, 8 Aug 2016 03:07:58 -0400
Subject: I swear I'm not making this up
In-Reply-To: <1796685685.11147764.1470328936351.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com>
References: <57a2dc2e.842f370a.8b7de.2348@mx.google.com>
 <372891470299735@web10o.yandex.ru>
 <1796685685.11147764.1470328936351.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <CAD2Ti2_+W0oKCnFnD3-HtGg8SLd6OQnuLC_p3LDx2vBBEPdiKg@mail.gmail.com>

On 8/4/16, jim bell <jdb10987 at yahoo.com> wrote:
> think it might have been ALSO Russia. Apparently the NSA is just furious
> To me, the identity and
> motives of this specific attacker are entirely unimportant:

>From a leak the docs perspective sure.
But ID of the real doers still have geopolitical ramifications.

> It is clear
> that the Democrats are just trying to divert attention from their own.

True as with all politicians.
Laughably, these days why bother with forming and defending
a real platform when you can win on bashing others and empty
slogans alone.

> I do notice is that when it was Hillary's private server that perhaps was
> being hacked, the media and government said a collective "ho hum"

As with all actors when taken on individual level, and at certain times,
Hillary is both worth protecting, useful idiot, and expendable player
on team new order.

> but when
> the DNC got that treatment, suddenly the FBI is motivated to
> act.  Double-standard?

Could be
false act, after all FBI feed at mouth of NSA too, so will
steer investigation into dead end.
or
false act, for FBI to fake looking good in news as top cop.
or
true act, to try to shut NSA and take top dog from Intel.
In which case NSA Bluffdale just leaks some of its FBI taps to press.

Beware secret unaccountable tools you create, they can bite back.




From jelena.jovanovic at pp-international.net  Sun Aug  7 18:23:21 2016
From: jelena.jovanovic at pp-international.net (Jelena Jovanovic)
Date: Mon, 8 Aug 2016 03:23:21 +0200
Subject: Remember, remember Hiroshima?
In-Reply-To: <CAG2tMp6v0AV-whdZonRJhZHNWiP7wLZ9oaxxEV3-NDYKCy201w@mail.gmail.com>
References: <20160806125315.GC691@sivokote.iziade.m$>
 <CAG2tMp6v0AV-whdZonRJhZHNWiP7wLZ9oaxxEV3-NDYKCy201w@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CANKNVgWSHJuowc9us+Dj_gduPpb++NMAzFeW8+RcSGcnK0nmfA@mail.gmail.com>

its beautiful movie  <3
and subs are easy to find.

On Sat, Aug 6, 2016 at 10:37 PM, Cecilia Tanaka <cecilia.tanaka at gmail.com>
wrote:

> On Aug 6, 2016 10:01 AM, "Georgi Guninski" <guninski at guninski.com> wrote:
> >
> > Remember, remember Hiroshima?
>
> <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Grave_of_the_Fireflies>
>
> I suggest to watch "Grave of the Fireflies", if someone wish to pay
> tribute to Hiroshima in a different way.
>
> It's beautiful and sensible, but also one of the saddest 'anime'
> (Japanese animated movies/series)  that I saw in my whole life.
>
> Not for being Japanese, not for showing the Second World War, but because
> it shows the point of view of  children.  Children starving, crying, losing
> their parents and dying without ever understanding the war.
>
> In all the wars, what always worries me the most are the children, their
> traums.  They don't have any guilt and always suffer all the pain.
>
> <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sadako_Sasaki>
>
> Sorry, I didn't find the animated movie with English subtitles on line,
> just the trailer.  It's the kind of story so disturbing, so intensely sad
> that you can watch only once in your life.  I, probably, was not brave
> enough in my searches, pardon.
>
> Trailer:  http://youtu.be/4vPeTSRd580
>
> Kisses and sad tsurus...
>
> -  c.
>



--
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From guninski at guninski.com  Mon Aug  8 01:48:48 2016
From: guninski at guninski.com (Georgi Guninski)
Date: Mon, 8 Aug 2016 11:48:48 +0300
Subject: What happened with coderman@gmail.com ?
In-Reply-To: <20160726084257.GA4148@sivokote.iziade.m$>
References: <20160726084257.GA4148@sivokote.iziade.m$>
Message-ID: <20160808084848.GA874@sivokote.iziade.m$>

On Tue, Jul 26, 2016 at 11:42:57AM +0300, Georgi Guninski wrote:
> What happened with coderman at gmail.com?
> 
> Web search suggest he is not posting since March this year.

Emailed them yesterday. No reply so far.




From spencerone at openmailbox.org  Mon Aug  8 11:56:48 2016
From: spencerone at openmailbox.org (Spencer)
Date: Mon, 08 Aug 2016 11:56:48 -0700
Subject: FM Corporations/ businesses/ entitities
In-Reply-To: <CAHKdp-nVBbQm+89D=HzU3+x2+8JexZjROTSCHFbXGY4iyFHdiQ@mail.gmail.com>
References: <20160730013607.GB17721@x220-a02>
 <04bfae7a-2de4-63e7-3adb-9bd54001d274@pilobilus.net>
 <20160803092946.GE2616@x220-a02>
 <CAHKdp-nG6UEVEn8CO0ENoZVm3nh1HGsZ+cKkx-SrbJeE2jr9TA@mail.gmail.com>
 <57a4ffa8.0220ed0a.4d185.cc61@mx.google.com>
 <CAHKdp-nVBbQm+89D=HzU3+x2+8JexZjROTSCHFbXGY4iyFHdiQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <02a65167a328f00622214fc4f2421a0e@openmailbox.org>

Hi,

> 
> Sean Lynch:
> [corporation]*
> 

1. formed into one body

2. a protruding pot belly

*separate from a legal definition

Wordlife,
Spencer






From spencerone at openmailbox.org  Mon Aug  8 12:13:37 2016
From: spencerone at openmailbox.org (Spencer)
Date: Mon, 08 Aug 2016 12:13:37 -0700
Subject: FM Corporations/ businesses/ entitities
In-Reply-To: <CAHKdp-nXDfhb=3iNZYPRmfKr-gti9kwdUmUsVeT6_vZ09YvrZQ@mail.gmail.com>
References: <20160730013607.GB17721@x220-a02>
 <CAHKdp-kxQf7CnCx1xSTCDEcELn7Cs4-vtkrpA5Oxqw1_5B8vRQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <20160803005130.GA2616@x220-a02>
 <57a165d7.1724c80a.9ff72.18df@mx.google.com>
 <CAHKdp-=Qq4wBweewC_VB7BwZUyyfSCqsxepDkspnCTLKZHfbKA@mail.gmail.com>
 <b282ef41182ef727f049ad7a632ada95@openmailbox.org>
 <CAHKdp-nXDfhb=3iNZYPRmfKr-gti9kwdUmUsVeT6_vZ09YvrZQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <a4fa5be19cc4324b8f14691d17eb81c5@openmailbox.org>

Hi,

> 
> Sean Lynch:
> recruiter pings for product manager
> 

XD

Wordlife,
Spencer







From seanl at literati.org  Mon Aug  8 10:39:31 2016
From: seanl at literati.org (Sean Lynch)
Date: Mon, 08 Aug 2016 17:39:31 +0000
Subject: FM Corporations/ businesses/ entitities
In-Reply-To: <b282ef41182ef727f049ad7a632ada95@openmailbox.org>
References: <20160730013607.GB17721@x220-a02>
 <CAHKdp-kxQf7CnCx1xSTCDEcELn7Cs4-vtkrpA5Oxqw1_5B8vRQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <20160803005130.GA2616@x220-a02> <57a165d7.1724c80a.9ff72.18df@mx.google.com>
 <CAHKdp-=Qq4wBweewC_VB7BwZUyyfSCqsxepDkspnCTLKZHfbKA@mail.gmail.com>
 <b282ef41182ef727f049ad7a632ada95@openmailbox.org>
Message-ID: <CAHKdp-nXDfhb=3iNZYPRmfKr-gti9kwdUmUsVeT6_vZ09YvrZQ@mail.gmail.com>

On Thu, Aug 4, 2016 at 10:23 PM Spencer <spencerone at openmailbox.org> wrote:

> Hi,
>
> >
> > Sean Lynch:
> > Google
> >
>
> I thought you were that TapEngage guy :P
>
> Wordlife,
> Spencer
>
> That happens a lot, actually. I ran into him years ago at Velocity and he
stopped me because we had the same name on our badge. He worked at Google
too, but we did not overlap. Then he was working on Facebook's account at
Dropbox, so I'd occasionally get emails meant for him and vice versa. I
also occasionally get recruiter pings for product manager roles and they
were always meant for him. We're connected on Facebook and LinkedIn and
follow one another on Twitter so it can really throw people for a loop when
we interact publicly.
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From seanl at literati.org  Mon Aug  8 10:41:53 2016
From: seanl at literati.org (Sean Lynch)
Date: Mon, 08 Aug 2016 17:41:53 +0000
Subject: FM Corporations/ businesses/ entitities
In-Reply-To: <57a4ffa8.0220ed0a.4d185.cc61@mx.google.com>
References: <20160730013607.GB17721@x220-a02>
 <04bfae7a-2de4-63e7-3adb-9bd54001d274@pilobilus.net>
 <20160803092946.GE2616@x220-a02>
 <CAHKdp-nG6UEVEn8CO0ENoZVm3nh1HGsZ+cKkx-SrbJeE2jr9TA@mail.gmail.com>
 <57a4ffa8.0220ed0a.4d185.cc61@mx.google.com>
Message-ID: <CAHKdp-nVBbQm+89D=HzU3+x2+8JexZjROTSCHFbXGY4iyFHdiQ@mail.gmail.com>

On Fri, Aug 5, 2016 at 2:11 PM juan <juan.g71 at gmail.com> wrote:

> Sean Lynch wrote:
>
> > > On Wed, 3 Aug 2016 10:51:30 +1000
> > > Zenaan Harkness <zen at freedbms.net> wrote:
> > >
> > >
> > > > > even if those institutions are entirely
> > > > > voluntary. I can imagine sets of institutions that would allow
> > > > > corporations in a similar sense to how they exist now, i.e.
> > > > > limited liability and some form of "personhood."
> > > >
> > > > 'limited liability' means that the owners of the company cannot be
> > > > personally sued.
> > >
> > >
> > >         Yes. And the idea that a libertarian society or a truly free
> > >         market is going to copy mercantilistic devices from the
> > > 'ancien regime' is unwarranted.
> > >
> >
> > I'm not sure it's more unwarranted than the assumption that
> > mercantilistic devices are always the wrong ones.
>
>
>         Are we talking about the same thing? Mercantilism is the system
>         in which business and government cooperate to loot consumers.
>
>         From a libertarian point of view mercantilism (or corporatism if
>         you will) is wrong, 'by definition'.
>

Yes, but when you say "mercantilistic device" I think "device used by
mercantilism," not "device that is inherently mercantilistic by its
nature". If you mean the latter, I don't think the generic concept of a
corporation qualifies, since it's just "a group of people who have chosen
to operate as a single entity and are recognized as such under some legal
system, voluntary or otherwise".


>
>
> >
> >
> > >         I'm not surprised that Sean said that though, since Sean
> > > has a rather 'naive' view about current fascist 'institutions' like
> > >         apple, facebook, uber, the tor project and other jewels from
> > >         the establishment's crown.
> > >
> >
> > My view has been slowly shifting toward a more left anarchist one.
> > But it can only go so far before I have to quit my job at Google to
> > avoid feeling like too much of a hypocrite.
>
>         Haha - thanks for the disclaimer =P
>
>
>
>
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From rayzer at riseup.net  Mon Aug  8 18:47:27 2016
From: rayzer at riseup.net (Rayzer)
Date: Mon, 8 Aug 2016 18:47:27 -0700
Subject: I swear I'm not making this up
In-Reply-To: <809252162.13177160.1470701262519.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com>
References: <57a2dc2e.842f370a.8b7de.2348@mx.google.com>
 <372891470299735@web10o.yandex.ru>
 <1796685685.11147764.1470328936351.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com>
 <CAD2Ti2_+W0oKCnFnD3-HtGg8SLd6OQnuLC_p3LDx2vBBEPdiKg@mail.gmail.com>
 <809252162.13177160.1470701262519.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <9c99d379-2ad9-664b-498c-6a4d518f7234@riseup.net>



On 08/08/2016 05:07 PM, jim bell wrote:
> 
> 
> *From:* grarpamp <grarpamp at gmail.com>
> 
> On 8/4/16, jim bell <jdb10987 at yahoo.com <mailto:jdb10987 at yahoo.com>> wrote:
>>> think it might have been ALSO Russia. Apparently the NSA is just furious
>>> To me, the identity and
>>> motives of this specific attacker are entirely unimportant:
> 
>>From a leak the docs perspective sure.
>>But ID of the real doers still have geopolitical ramifications.
> 
> It's beginning to look more and more like it was the NSA.  After all,
> they built that
> data center in Utah specifically to store "all" emails.  It finally came
> in handy, huh?
> They would argue that they were given authority to collect the emails.
>  I don't think
> they'd have to have additional authority to actually use them.
>  
>               Jim Bell
> 
> 
> 
> 

AFAIK the US puts bots on Chinese computers to attack the US to make it
look like China did it for Cold War purposes, while US intel gets all
your credit card dataz. Extrapolate Russia hacks DNC from that.

That's  my story, I'm sticking to it.

Rr




From zen at freedbms.net  Mon Aug  8 03:00:05 2016
From: zen at freedbms.net (Zenaan Harkness)
Date: Mon, 8 Aug 2016 20:00:05 +1000
Subject: [WAR] The British Empire =?utf-8?B?4oCT?= =?utf-8?Q?_A?= Lesson In
 State Terrorism
Message-ID: <20160808100005.GF12059@x220-a02>

The British Empire – A Lesson In State Terrorism
https://www.sott.net/article/245044-The-British-Empire-A-Lesson-In-State-Terrorism

"
The historical record shows quite clearly that states, or those acting
on behalf of the state, have been responsible for the vast majority of
large-scale terrorist acts against civilians.
"




From zen at freedbms.net  Mon Aug  8 03:04:06 2016
From: zen at freedbms.net (Zenaan Harkness)
Date: Mon, 8 Aug 2016 20:04:06 +1000
Subject: [WAR] Why =?utf-8?Q?Truman=E2=80=99s_regim?= =?utf-8?Q?e?= targeted
 Hiroshima and Nagasaki with their atomic bombs?
Message-ID: <20160808100406.GG12059@x220-a02>

Why Truman’s regime targeted Hiroshima and Nagasaki with their atomic
bombs?
http://matveychev-oleg.livejournal.com/3810955.html
Informative article on the history of Orthodox Christianity in Japan.




From grarpamp at gmail.com  Mon Aug  8 17:24:49 2016
From: grarpamp at gmail.com (grarpamp)
Date: Mon, 8 Aug 2016 20:24:49 -0400
Subject: [tor-talk] Tor Project Corporate Document FOI Request
In-Reply-To: <20160801024414.GA41835@vpn212046.nrl.navy.mil>
References: <CAD2Ti29MUi2HsD8MkWnXNxPELi_Mg9UDdP2UijehBUPuCGtyZg@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAD2Ti2-12ok+PZgeVDhH03wq=iCpajK2Fk_u8pAaXV1a9jZsgg@mail.gmail.com>
 <20160801024414.GA41835@vpn212046.nrl.navy.mil>
Message-ID: <CAD2Ti2_4fW=wRqh6PA3gJ5gSZWqKDC_zk8yQoFPkt3+x+-Ag=g@mail.gmail.com>

On 7/31/16, Paul Syverson <paul.syverson at nrl.navy.mil> wrote:
> I don't know the extent to which this covers what you were looking for,

People are certainly familiar serving on, in, and with boards of
directors, founding
positions, and executive positions, as such are surely familiar with the name
and meaning of the docs listed / requested by name on behalf of the community,
familiar enough to which you and everyone else that has responded similarly
above, up to and including proffering the not requested and new docs below,
or talking FOIA law... that such respondants are, respectfully... full of crap,
or at least grossly to negligent misreading, regarding docs thought looking for.

It's been almost three weeks now and the silence by those in position
to execute this request, to even officially publicly acknowledge and
put it in queue... is becoming suspect in some circles.

At least there seems now some movement by unofficials around it.
Let that not be taken to excuse officials.

> but you might want to look at/participate in the thread
> https://lists.torproject.org/pipermail/tor-project/2016-July/000559.html
> that discusses various Tor documents.

Maybe later as time permit :)

> The second message (from Alison) specifically includes several
> documents that seem to cover at least some of what you were asking about.

Nice for future, but see new docs above and below.

> The thread I reference in general discusses the need for having a good
> place to put all such documents and the pros and cons of various
> choices.

Could be seen as excuse / delay. Nor is a committee on that needed.
But hey, fixed that for ya...

https://trac.torproject.org/projects/tor/wiki/org/TorProjectCorporateDocuments

> So, while I think it's true that the particular thread we're
> currently in remains unanswered by anyone from TPI,

I'll accept that.

> there is clearly
> ongoing expenditure of nontrivial time and effort on the general
> topic.  No doubt plenty of room for improvement. HTH.

And that too... while noting that the request calls for existing past
docs, not future improved ones. The time and effort required to produce
the narrow list therein is trivial matter of pulling them from file drawer.




From grarpamp at gmail.com  Mon Aug  8 17:30:57 2016
From: grarpamp at gmail.com (grarpamp)
Date: Mon, 8 Aug 2016 20:30:57 -0400
Subject: I swear I'm not making this up
In-Reply-To: <809252162.13177160.1470701262519.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com>
References: <57a2dc2e.842f370a.8b7de.2348@mx.google.com>
 <372891470299735@web10o.yandex.ru>
 <1796685685.11147764.1470328936351.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com>
 <CAD2Ti2_+W0oKCnFnD3-HtGg8SLd6OQnuLC_p3LDx2vBBEPdiKg@mail.gmail.com>
 <809252162.13177160.1470701262519.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <CAD2Ti2-PGeYoThcJ8koRtAFerkCQ1g8NhR3QK+3BNTk0zT=ppQ@mail.gmail.com>

On 8/8/16, jim bell <jdb10987 at yahoo.com> wrote:
> It's beginning to look more and more like it was the NSA.  After all, they
> built thatdata center in Utah specifically to store "all" emails.  It
> finally came in handy, huh?They would argue that they were given authority
> to collect the emails.

Interesting perspective. Wonder what NARA / LOC would say about that.

> I don't thinkthey'd have to have additional authority to actually use them.

And if that's their purpose, why can't Mr. Public walk in and
use (inspect / report / ... ) them like they can in NARA / LOC ...




From juan.g71 at gmail.com  Mon Aug  8 19:26:51 2016
From: juan.g71 at gmail.com (juan)
Date: Mon, 8 Aug 2016 23:26:51 -0300
Subject: Quantum entangled-photon Chinese satellite.
In-Reply-To: <6741f82d607f7347796d03def4866ae4@openmailbox.org>
References: <1603947053.11044988.1470329352392.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com>
 <57a3a57f.0703370a.241d8.c3ea@mx.google.com>
 <1359771938.2091832.1470347891966.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com>
 <57a3c0a1.84bd370a.2e08f.dde4@mx.google.com>
 <953028539.36755.1470353627925.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com>
 <57a44457.4c64370a.22ed0.1e04@mx.google.com>
 <20160805080713.GE1038@sivokote.iziade.m$>
 <2034279837.11486285.1470387532268.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com>
 <20160805115131.GH1038@sivokote.iziade.m$>
 <57A4AC72.6000301@riseup.net> <20160805181424.GV2570@x220-a02>
 <57A4EF5F.5000600@riseup.net>
 <57a4f618.44a6370a.38261.bfc0@mx.google.com>
 <6741f82d607f7347796d03def4866ae4@openmailbox.org>
Message-ID: <57a93e5b.8b05370a.d60e9.11dc@mx.google.com>

On Fri, 05 Aug 2016 14:38:42 -0700
Spencer <spencerone at openmailbox.org> wrote:

> Hi,
> 
> > 
> > juan:
> > physics [&] bad philosophy
> > 
> 
> Are often the same thing XD

	Indeed.



> 
> Wordlife,
> Spencer
> 
> 
> 




From grarpamp at gmail.com  Mon Aug  8 21:01:59 2016
From: grarpamp at gmail.com (grarpamp)
Date: Tue, 9 Aug 2016 00:01:59 -0400
Subject: [tor-talk] Tor Project Corporate Document FOI Request
In-Reply-To: <BE88A888-A63A-4D14-A5AB-9C1986AD32E6@frii.com>
References: <CAD2Ti29MUi2HsD8MkWnXNxPELi_Mg9UDdP2UijehBUPuCGtyZg@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAD2Ti2-12ok+PZgeVDhH03wq=iCpajK2Fk_u8pAaXV1a9jZsgg@mail.gmail.com>
 <20160801024414.GA41835@vpn212046.nrl.navy.mil>
 <CAD2Ti2_4fW=wRqh6PA3gJ5gSZWqKDC_zk8yQoFPkt3+x+-Ag=g@mail.gmail.com>
 <BE88A888-A63A-4D14-A5AB-9C1986AD32E6@frii.com>
Message-ID: <CAD2Ti29xXNmPOS9beag_F7jsfua8xg494LDJh7yxhguAuV+huQ@mail.gmail.com>

On 8/8/16, Ken Cline <cline at frii.com> wrote:
> Others  are a matter of public record:  Consult the Massachusetts Secretary
> of State's web site
> [http://corp.sec.state.ma.us/corpweb/CorpSearch/CorpSearch.aspx]

If you start searching by entity and individual names,
here's one example of what shows up that is certainly community
relavant and that I don't recall being publicly announced...

# TOR SOLUTIONS CORPORATION, For Profit, 250000 shares
http://corp.sec.state.ma.us/CorpWeb/CorpSearch/CorpSummary.aspx?FEIN=001055985

...at least not until this FOI request from the community came along...

https://lists.torproject.org/pipermail/tor-talk/2013-September/030164.html
https://lists.torproject.org/pipermail/tor-talk/2013-September/030169.html
https://www.google.com/search?q="tor+solutions+group"
https://www.google.com/search?q="tor+solutions+corporation"

Might as well include their bylaws, minutes, etc for transparency too.




From jdb10987 at yahoo.com  Mon Aug  8 17:07:42 2016
From: jdb10987 at yahoo.com (jim bell)
Date: Tue, 9 Aug 2016 00:07:42 +0000 (UTC)
Subject: I swear I'm not making this up
In-Reply-To: <CAD2Ti2_+W0oKCnFnD3-HtGg8SLd6OQnuLC_p3LDx2vBBEPdiKg@mail.gmail.com>
References: <57a2dc2e.842f370a.8b7de.2348@mx.google.com>
 <372891470299735@web10o.yandex.ru>
 <1796685685.11147764.1470328936351.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com>
 <CAD2Ti2_+W0oKCnFnD3-HtGg8SLd6OQnuLC_p3LDx2vBBEPdiKg@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <809252162.13177160.1470701262519.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com>



 From: grarpamp <grarpamp at gmail.com>
   
On 8/4/16, jim bell <jdb10987 at yahoo.com> wrote:
>> think it might have been ALSO Russia. Apparently the NSA is just furious
>> To me, the identity and
>> motives of this specific attacker are entirely unimportant:

>From a leak the docs perspective sure.
>But ID of the real doers still have geopolitical ramifications.

It's beginning to look more and more like it was the NSA.  After all, they built thatdata center in Utah specifically to store "all" emails.  It finally came in handy, huh?They would argue that they were given authority to collect the emails.  I don't thinkthey'd have to have additional authority to actually use them.               Jim Bell



  
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From grarpamp at gmail.com  Mon Aug  8 21:08:51 2016
From: grarpamp at gmail.com (grarpamp)
Date: Tue, 9 Aug 2016 00:08:51 -0400
Subject: BBC to deploy detection vans to snoop on internet users
Message-ID: <CAD2Ti29Yu4aer7HyN=SqXj0zJUBca+0_mTYKdEPOQLOmX_SNxw@mail.gmail.com>

http://www.metzdowd.com/pipermail/cryptography/2016-August/029866.html
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2016/08/05/bbc-to-deploy-detection-vans-to-snoop-on-internet-users/

BBC to deploy detection vans to snoop on internet users
Patrick Foster 6 August 2016  8:24am

The BBC is to spy on internet users in their homes by deploying a new
generation of Wi-Fi detection vans to identify those illicitly
watching its programmes online.
The Telegraph can disclose that from next month, the BBC vans will fan
out across the country capturing information from private Wi-Fi
networks in homes to "sniff out" those who have not paid the licence
fee.
The corporation has been given legal dispensation to use the new
technology, which is typically only available to crime-fighting
agencies, to enforce the new requirement that people watching BBC
programmes via the iPlayer must have a TV licence.
The disclosure will lead to fears about invasion of privacy and
follows years of concern over the heavy-handed approach of the BBC
towards those suspected of not paying the licence fee.  However, the
BBC insists that its inspectors will not be able to spy on other
internet browsing habits of viewers.
.....




From grarpamp at gmail.com  Tue Aug  9 02:03:03 2016
From: grarpamp at gmail.com (grarpamp)
Date: Tue, 9 Aug 2016 05:03:03 -0400
Subject: [tor-talk] Tor Project Corporate Document FOI Request
In-Reply-To: <BE88A888-A63A-4D14-A5AB-9C1986AD32E6@frii.com>
References: <CAD2Ti29MUi2HsD8MkWnXNxPELi_Mg9UDdP2UijehBUPuCGtyZg@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAD2Ti2-12ok+PZgeVDhH03wq=iCpajK2Fk_u8pAaXV1a9jZsgg@mail.gmail.com>
 <20160801024414.GA41835@vpn212046.nrl.navy.mil>
 <CAD2Ti2_4fW=wRqh6PA3gJ5gSZWqKDC_zk8yQoFPkt3+x+-Ag=g@mail.gmail.com>
 <BE88A888-A63A-4D14-A5AB-9C1986AD32E6@frii.com>
Message-ID: <CAD2Ti29aE7jCXQX32Tpuk714vcZGYGC3JAvip8dotTPsenw_Hw@mail.gmail.com>

On 8/8/16, Ken Cline <cline at frii.com> wrote:
> "various Licenses and Certificates held"

A corporation can be issued, issue, and hold, various licences and
certs, be they from or to, private or public entities, governments,
or persons. Could be... vendor / reseller, awards, permission to
bid / let [govt or other] contracts, provide services, etc.
Use your imagination. TPI knows what it does or doesn't hold. And
TPI can be transparent by listing them all proactively instead of
requiring community go on phishing expedition for them by name.

> "form blanks to be signed by new parties of all types"

TPI has surely asked folks to fill out or sign, and been asked
itself, regarding NDA's / [de]briefings, pre / during / post
employment blanks, template blanket MOU's, etc.
Use your imagination. TPI operates a corporate "office", a corporate
office has form blanks for all sorts of uses. In particular when
liasing with or initiating new parties of all types.

As with the "new docs" someone posted for the future, folks are
interested in seeing any similar docs applicable to the past.
Only TPI knows what they were named. Those of employment and
[process] acknowledgement are certainly higher than stupid petty
cash and phone memo forms, come on now :)

> [http://corp.sec.state.ma.us/corpweb/CorpSearch/CorpSearch.aspx]
> "Articles Of Incorporation", "Charter", "Bylaws", and "Operating Agreement".

>  Except for Bylaws, these named documents do not exist.

No, the state mandated Articles and Annuals exist there.

NO!, the bylaws (another name for operating agreement), a highly
relavant thing for transparency, do not seem to exist anywhere.

Whatever other major structural and procedural docs may exist, who
knows. Those are just some of the common names for them. Other
people can add other names.

Worth nothing is that whether or not any doc is [required to be]
filed with government agencies, and whether or not it is publicly
available from them once filed... is different from what TPI may
choose to publish on its own for the community.

> You will find their
> Articles of Organization and Annual Reports, which contain relevant
> information.

Regardless, whatever is publicly available or FOIA-able on a
government site should also be posted for transparency on TPI as
well.

> Others are on the Tor Web site itself:

> ("List of Officeholders", "Executives",

It's not necessarily clear, in a classically hierarchical org chart
sort of way, who held all the various high titles and when.

> "Voting Members"

NO!, voting and election does not appear to be detailed at all anywhere.
Only opaque references to "duly elected" and "adopted".
And "member" often means certain things in corporate law as well.

> Of course, there are no shareholders

While "non-profit" (its own curiosity to be sure), may hold certain
meaning and requirements in certain jurisdictions, the extension
of that to concepts of founding / holding parties and redistribution,
optionally to achieve "non-profit", may be different.

Links to law refs on the topic could be useful for those that didn't
already notice a reference to the possibility of that in the Articles
(under powers).

> precisely which people have voting power will be
> detailed in the Articles of Organization or Bylaws.

Pointless when the AOI says nothing there, and the bylaws aren't
available. Nor can community be expected to wade through MA/US law
to see if any particular "Officer" or "Director" is granted unwaivable
voting rights under law.

> Still others appear not yet available.

Yes.

> patience in obtaining the audited 2015 financials.

If TPI's release of particular docs is governed by requirement of
law, that's different. But if community can FOIA same from govt,
there is no such requirement, and TPI should transparently publish.

> "Meeting Minutes covering years 2010 ~ 2015" should be available.
> I would contact the Tor Project directly (Executive Director's office,
> maybe).

No user, donor, or interested party should be pushed / required to
go private fora like that. It's their right to ask in public, to
do so by proxy person or tor etc, and to retain their motivations.
And whatever TPI does with such requests is up to TPI. If it's
transparent with servicable open fora, it's a non issue.

It's also silly to be fielding multiple same requests when a single
transparent proactive publication of same will serve everyone.

Yes, minutes are very important for transparency.

It's extremely unlikely the ED's office did not know, or was not
informed, within no more than a few days of the request, probably
more like a few hours. Certainly not a few weeks.

> The issue you
> filed in the tracking system was given medium priority, which seems proper

Few could have problem with that.
As before, only with lack of ack and general plan of reply.

> your request

It should not be considered mine, but a presentment of some community
voices / ideas / tasks gone forgotten / unattended over time, into
a more prominent and useful form. And with recent events pressing...
journalists could easily be added to list of supporting and interested
parties.

Others are welcome to carry the request forward.




From grarpamp at gmail.com  Tue Aug  9 02:19:39 2016
From: grarpamp at gmail.com (grarpamp)
Date: Tue, 9 Aug 2016 05:19:39 -0400
Subject: [tor-talk] Tor Project Corporate Document FOI Request
In-Reply-To: <CAB7TAMkJ_sGDSxzUu5iU30k5xGUjVY1+pzh_GY7R6ESWV4fKig@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAD2Ti29MUi2HsD8MkWnXNxPELi_Mg9UDdP2UijehBUPuCGtyZg@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAD2Ti2-12ok+PZgeVDhH03wq=iCpajK2Fk_u8pAaXV1a9jZsgg@mail.gmail.com>
 <20160801024414.GA41835@vpn212046.nrl.navy.mil>
 <CAD2Ti2_4fW=wRqh6PA3gJ5gSZWqKDC_zk8yQoFPkt3+x+-Ag=g@mail.gmail.com>
 <BE88A888-A63A-4D14-A5AB-9C1986AD32E6@frii.com>
 <CAD2Ti29xXNmPOS9beag_F7jsfua8xg494LDJh7yxhguAuV+huQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAB7TAMkJ_sGDSxzUu5iU30k5xGUjVY1+pzh_GY7R6ESWV4fKig@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAD2Ti29ZaZedVCz4CBF7DZ6p7L4ZLCH354a89rLCLxAArXvLuQ@mail.gmail.com>

On 8/9/16, ITechGeek <ITG at itechgeek.com> wrote:
> I think you meant this one:
> http://corp.sec.state.ma.us/CorpWeb/CorpSearch/CorpSummary.aspx?FEIN=208096820
> The exact name of the Nonprofit Corporation:   THE TOR PROJECT, INC.

It's clear from the context exactly which one was meant.

On 8/9/16, Allen <allenpmd at gmail.com> wrote:
> [drivel]

Nice try.
Cheerio chap :)




From jdb10987 at yahoo.com  Tue Aug  9 00:23:42 2016
From: jdb10987 at yahoo.com (jim bell)
Date: Tue, 9 Aug 2016 07:23:42 +0000 (UTC)
Subject: BBC to deploy detection vans to snoop on internet users
In-Reply-To: <CAD2Ti29Yu4aer7HyN=SqXj0zJUBca+0_mTYKdEPOQLOmX_SNxw@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAD2Ti29Yu4aer7HyN=SqXj0zJUBca+0_mTYKdEPOQLOmX_SNxw@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <1117658115.13342281.1470727422745.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com>



 From: grarpamp <grarpamp at gmail.com>
http://www.metzdowd.com/pipermail/cryptography/2016-August/029866.html
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2016/08/05/bbc-to-deploy-detection-vans-to-snoop-on-internet-users/

>BBC to deploy detection vans to snoop on internet users
>Patrick Foster 6 August 2016  8:24am

>The BBC is to spy on internet users in their homes by deploying a new
>generation of Wi-Fi detection vans to identify those illicitly
>watching its programmes online.
Non-British people might not know that for 50+ years, individuals owning televisions have been required to pay a tax.https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Television_licensing_in_the_United_Kingdom

"In the United Kingdom and the Crown Dependencies, any household watching or recording live television transmissions as they are being broadcast (terrestrial, satellite, cable, or internet) is required to hold atelevision licence. Businesses, hospitals, schools and a range of other organisations are also required to hold television licences to watch and record live TV broadcasts.[1] Since 1 April 2010 the annual licence fee has been £145.50 for colour and £49.00 for black and white.[2][3][4] Income from the licence is primarily used to fund the television, radio and online services of the BBC. The total income from licence fees was £3.735 billion in 2014–15[5] of which £613.4 million or 16.4% was provided by the Government through concessions for those over the age of 75. Thus, the licence fee made up the bulk of the BBC's total income of £4.805 billion in 2014–2015."
No doubt the British people have developed ever-more sophisticated ways to evade those taxes!            Jim Bell  
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From guninski at guninski.com  Mon Aug  8 23:00:46 2016
From: guninski at guninski.com (Georgi Guninski)
Date: Tue, 9 Aug 2016 09:00:46 +0300
Subject: FM Corporations/ businesses/ entitities
In-Reply-To: <b282ef41182ef727f049ad7a632ada95@openmailbox.org>
References: <20160730013607.GB17721@x220-a02>
 <CAHKdp-kxQf7CnCx1xSTCDEcELn7Cs4-vtkrpA5Oxqw1_5B8vRQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <20160803005130.GA2616@x220-a02>
 <57a165d7.1724c80a.9ff72.18df@mx.google.com>
 <CAHKdp-=Qq4wBweewC_VB7BwZUyyfSCqsxepDkspnCTLKZHfbKA@mail.gmail.com>
 <b282ef41182ef727f049ad7a632ada95@openmailbox.org>
Message-ID: <20160809060046.GA1870@sivokote.iziade.m$>

On Thu, Aug 04, 2016 at 10:15:20PM -0700, Spencer wrote:
> >
> >Sean Lynch:
> >Google
> >

Isn't this ironic: google employee not using gmail, some google bashers
here use gmail?




From guninski at guninski.com  Mon Aug  8 23:03:39 2016
From: guninski at guninski.com (Georgi Guninski)
Date: Tue, 9 Aug 2016 09:03:39 +0300
Subject: BBC to deploy detection vans to snoop on internet users
In-Reply-To: <CAD2Ti29Yu4aer7HyN=SqXj0zJUBca+0_mTYKdEPOQLOmX_SNxw@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAD2Ti29Yu4aer7HyN=SqXj0zJUBca+0_mTYKdEPOQLOmX_SNxw@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <20160809060339.GB1870@sivokote.iziade.m$>

On Tue, Aug 09, 2016 at 12:08:51AM -0400, grarpamp wrote:
> http://www.metzdowd.com/pipermail/cryptography/2016-August/029866.html
> http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2016/08/05/bbc-to-deploy-detection-vans-to-snoop-on-internet-users/
> 
> BBC to deploy detection vans to snoop on internet users

So far they bought license to sniff. Next step will be a license to
arrest alleged TV pirates.




From guninski at guninski.com  Tue Aug  9 02:05:34 2016
From: guninski at guninski.com (Georgi Guninski)
Date: Tue, 9 Aug 2016 12:05:34 +0300
Subject: [OT] The ICFP Programming Contest
Message-ID: <20160809090534.GC1870@sivokote.iziade.m$>

For those who like coding challenges:
http://www.icfpconference.org/contest.html
The ICFP Programming Contest

-- 
s="import md5;print'MD5 sum of my source is: '+md5.new('s=%r;exec s'%s).hexdigest()";exec s




From mirimir at riseup.net  Tue Aug  9 14:10:20 2016
From: mirimir at riseup.net (Mirimir)
Date: Tue, 9 Aug 2016 15:10:20 -0600
Subject: [tor-talk] Tor Project Corporate Document FOI Request
In-Reply-To: <CAB7TAMkJ_sGDSxzUu5iU30k5xGUjVY1+pzh_GY7R6ESWV4fKig@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAD2Ti29MUi2HsD8MkWnXNxPELi_Mg9UDdP2UijehBUPuCGtyZg@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAD2Ti2-12ok+PZgeVDhH03wq=iCpajK2Fk_u8pAaXV1a9jZsgg@mail.gmail.com>
 <20160801024414.GA41835@vpn212046.nrl.navy.mil>
 <CAD2Ti2_4fW=wRqh6PA3gJ5gSZWqKDC_zk8yQoFPkt3+x+-Ag=g@mail.gmail.com>
 <BE88A888-A63A-4D14-A5AB-9C1986AD32E6@frii.com>
 <CAD2Ti29xXNmPOS9beag_F7jsfua8xg494LDJh7yxhguAuV+huQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAB7TAMkJ_sGDSxzUu5iU30k5xGUjVY1+pzh_GY7R6ESWV4fKig@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <e739c15d-92ca-8d81-4493-c8c991b53d37@riseup.net>

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1

On 08/09/2016 02:38 AM, Allen wrote:
>> # TOR SOLUTIONS CORPORATION, For Profit, 250000 shares 
>> http://corp.sec.state.ma.us/CorpWeb/CorpSearch/CorpSummary.aspx?FEIN=
>>
>> 
001055985
>> 
>> 
> I don't think you've actually looked at any of the information the
> Tor Project provides to the public on its website.  Because if you
> had looked at it, you would know exactly what the legal name of the
> corporation was.

Did you actually look at that document?

| Summary for:  TOR SOLUTIONS CORPORATION
|
| ...
|
| The name and address of the Registered Agent:
|
| Name: 	THE TOR PROJECT, INC.
|
| ...
|
| PRESIDENT	ROGER DINGLEDINE

I had never heard of that. I doubt that there's anything on Tor
Project website about it.

> Given that you are too lazy to actually find and read the publicly 
> available information, why should the Tor Project honor your
> request to provide additional information?  I think they are well
> justified to simply ignore it.

I'm pretty sure that they will ignore it. The truth is probably ugly :(

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From jnn at synfin.org  Tue Aug  9 12:43:22 2016
From: jnn at synfin.org (John Newman)
Date: Tue, 9 Aug 2016 15:43:22 -0400
Subject: Anarchist Bibliography, please? (was Re: Deconstructing an
 Institutional Slander...)
In-Reply-To: <CAG2tMp5VUSFrJJXVXU35VBkY4trmH8K+7yECpnQAvfX7iRF3qQ@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAG2tMp7R2Lo0RN11qkC_iC9-4=2gHzpbcZEOoLtRFkCJ6Cf_KA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAG2tMp70VXbY+0GJs3HApMq71TcBympeLg3QUuDDdHwmC6Cqwg@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAG2tMp4=q0aFUjcS8Gei2J9FqYfQnsWg0E5Vh_OtGjVuJ-_V0Q@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAG2tMp55nML9+v0hnLVfe+OqPsCMUNiB66FR-VjmTn3pkGSTRw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAG2tMp7M3BpOUOcv6fkOYK=cYvYCWmg3nFrL8QSGBF0JPr5pjg@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAG2tMp5A5AxiYHR4JQ-ECFCy80nsa8-xxYw5gs5vMEfHtHKRgg@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAG2tMp4HdMnuXO7K5OvAie1+f1bsU5_iDg-nEcy=PTvJfV+XFA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAG2tMp6sd1r-FwLWd2SmQTQ-JJJpCPyU9hDKKKkew8symGGtJQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAG2tMp5CmWA9rzgwDpe9XDYbOcKooAq15PrDD1UtorcnPZo--Q@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAG2tMp5VUSFrJJXVXU35VBkY4trmH8K+7yECpnQAvfX7iRF3qQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <20160809194322.GA24863@synfin.org>

On Thu, Aug 04, 2016 at 04:00:47AM -0300, Cecilia Tanaka wrote:
> On Jul 29, 2016 10:36 PM, "juan" <juan.g71 at gmail.com> wrote:
> >
> >         Are you talking about equality before the law? (which logically
> entails anarchism btw)
> 
> Juan dear,
> 
> Instead arguing with you about vocabulary, real meaning of some words or
> not, limits of some concepts, gender equality, men and women, storks and
> babies, I decided asking for help and avoid a possible gaffe or being
> unfair with you.  :P
> 
> I was thinking about asking you some suggestions of good anarchist
> readings, because I made some searches and  - wow! -  the bibliography is
> really huge.  I need some help to separate the wheat from the shaft,
> please.  Or a guide "Advanced Anarchism for Dummies".  I know only the baby
> steps, sorry.  :(

Besides all the stuff already mentioned, some decent "anarchy
fiction" would be the Culture books by Ian Banks..  set in a distant
post-scarcity future, the "Culture" in question is definitely an
interesting take on anarchy. Large swaths of humanity populate the
galaxy, mostly living in enormous space stations (huge rotating
stanford torus-style rings). Benevolent AIs "watch over" humanity,
but anyone can choose to opt out and no one has to obey, although
obviously cooperation helps..  the books are great.

If you dig punk/hardcore, the band Propagandhi makes some great
shit. Their lyrics are all about freedom and the crimes of our
oppressors, and the lyrics are smart, the music is fucking great.
Less Talk, More Rock and Todays Empires, Tomorrows Ashes are both
fantastic. Although, they do get a little too precious about veganism
for my, err, tastes... ;)

I haven't read Bakunin or any of the 'real' stuff since high school
or early college.. Reading about the russian revolution recently
was very depressing. Personally I don't hold much hope for humanity..I
figure the solution to Fermis paradox is self-evident. We are going
to fucking destroy ourselves. Live it up while you can ;)


John




From admin at pilobilus.net  Tue Aug  9 13:34:10 2016
From: admin at pilobilus.net (Steve Kinney)
Date: Tue, 9 Aug 2016 16:34:10 -0400
Subject: Anarchist Bibliography, please? (was Re: Deconstructing an
 Institutional Slander...)
In-Reply-To: <20160809194322.GA24863@synfin.org>
References: <CAG2tMp7R2Lo0RN11qkC_iC9-4=2gHzpbcZEOoLtRFkCJ6Cf_KA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAG2tMp70VXbY+0GJs3HApMq71TcBympeLg3QUuDDdHwmC6Cqwg@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAG2tMp4=q0aFUjcS8Gei2J9FqYfQnsWg0E5Vh_OtGjVuJ-_V0Q@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAG2tMp55nML9+v0hnLVfe+OqPsCMUNiB66FR-VjmTn3pkGSTRw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAG2tMp7M3BpOUOcv6fkOYK=cYvYCWmg3nFrL8QSGBF0JPr5pjg@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAG2tMp5A5AxiYHR4JQ-ECFCy80nsa8-xxYw5gs5vMEfHtHKRgg@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAG2tMp4HdMnuXO7K5OvAie1+f1bsU5_iDg-nEcy=PTvJfV+XFA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAG2tMp6sd1r-FwLWd2SmQTQ-JJJpCPyU9hDKKKkew8symGGtJQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAG2tMp5CmWA9rzgwDpe9XDYbOcKooAq15PrDD1UtorcnPZo--Q@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAG2tMp5VUSFrJJXVXU35VBkY4trmH8K+7yECpnQAvfX7iRF3qQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <20160809194322.GA24863@synfin.org>
Message-ID: <f96998a0-04a8-873b-7e5c-ba9a227e3f90@pilobilus.net>

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1

On 08/09/2016 03:43 PM, John Newman wrote:

> If you dig punk/hardcore, the band Propagandhi makes some great 
> shit. Their lyrics are all about freedom and the crimes of our 
> oppressors, and the lyrics are smart, the music is fucking great. 
> Less Talk, More Rock and Todays Empires, Tomorrows Ashes are both 
> fantastic. Although, they do get a little too precious about
> veganism for my, err, tastes... ;)

Dr. Mabuse (Propaganda, A Secret Wish, 1985) was playing while I read
the above quoted post.  There must be something in the air.  Also
recommended, all just out this year:

B-Movie, Climate Of Fear

Richard Ashcroft, These People

Posies, Solid State

and maybe especially:

Escondito, Walking With A Stranger

:o)

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From mirimir at riseup.net  Tue Aug  9 22:35:45 2016
From: mirimir at riseup.net (Mirimir)
Date: Tue, 9 Aug 2016 23:35:45 -0600
Subject: What happened to Pond?
In-Reply-To: <5751D488.2010209@mail-on.us>
References: <CAD2Ti2_bNuzzn+JYVXaZyS_xhiZYTetWMJmxH4tdwBvqvHJB7A@mail.gmail.com>
 <574B49CD.1080204@riseup.net> <5751D488.2010209@mail-on.us>
Message-ID: <189a28b1-2432-7d67-0616-c0cd9b3e48bb@riseup.net>

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1

On 06/03/2016 01:03 PM, mrnobody at mail-on.us wrote:
> It the how to progresses, I'd be great if you could share it here.
> 
> Mirimir:
>> On 05/29/2016 01:27 PM, grarpamp wrote:
>>> "*Pond is in stasis*, and has been for several years. I hope
>>> that some of the ideas prove useful in the future, but people
>>> should use something [better polished and
>>> reviewed](https://whispersystems.org). I've no plans to
>>> shutdown down the default server, but **new users should look
>>> elsewhere**."  -- agl at github
>> You need a telephone number to use that Whisper Systems stuff,
>> right?
>> 
>> Setting up Pond servers isn't hard. A friend is working on a
>> how-to.
>> 
>> But then there's the Panda exchange server :(

I really don't get how Adam Langley can be recommending apps on
Android or iOS devices. That's some crazy shit.

And undercomm spoke well of it, just a few months ago:
<https://medium.com/@undercomm/secure-communication-pond-4985bfe85a2c>

So anyway, I'm running a Pond server. As backup, or whatever. At:

pondserver://VEPNRUOJLMJEKOB65RBCAM22YPJWQJIPUFT3WO32PK7JWLKU7RBQ at oj424kafxnudeizc.onion

It's on a well secured server, in a Whonix-like setup. I'll write some
instructions, and put them on <http://dbshmc5frbchaum2.onion>.

Feel free to use it. To communicate with me, send a shared secret via
encrypted email. My GnuPG key is at <https://keybase.io/mirimir>.

To install a Pond client, see
<https://gist.github.com/anonymous/ac909d690b08ec50867e0b4639031e87>.
It works well in Whonix :)

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From jdb10987 at yahoo.com  Tue Aug  9 20:57:36 2016
From: jdb10987 at yahoo.com (jim bell)
Date: Wed, 10 Aug 2016 03:57:36 +0000 (UTC)
Subject: [MONEY] Behind Closed Doors at the IMF
In-Reply-To: <20160810021148.GD6767@x220-a02>
References: <20160810021148.GD6767@x220-a02>
Message-ID: <1642358581.14642253.1470801456094.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com>



 From: Zenaan Harkness <zen at freedbms.net>

>The following provides a plain english note on a couple of foundations
>of the IMF which some may not have grokked before (SDRs will cause/ be
>blamed for future inflation ('through the back door')),

For a moment there, I wondered how "Software Defined Radios" were going to be heldresponsible for inflation.  Then I read the rest of the article.
              Jim Bell
  
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From jdb10987 at yahoo.com  Wed Aug 10 01:59:22 2016
From: jdb10987 at yahoo.com (jim bell)
Date: Wed, 10 Aug 2016 08:59:22 +0000 (UTC)
Subject: Media's Lack of Knowledge of Law should be Embarrassing
References: <1375987660.14308177.1470819562572.JavaMail.yahoo.ref@mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <1375987660.14308177.1470819562572.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com>

Today, there was yet another manufactured scandal involving the media.  Apparently Trump
made a comment about Hillary Clinton and the NRA, which the mainstream media is portraying
as some sort of a threat against her.  No doubt that media is unaware of the Supreme Court
case Brandenburg v. Ohio (1969),   https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brandenburg_v._Ohio    According
to Wikipedia, this decision held that "The Court held that government cannot punish inflammatory
 speech unless that speech is directed to inciting, and is likely to incite, imminent lawless action.
 Specifically, it struck down Ohio's criminal syndicalism statute, because that statute broadly
 prohibited the mere advocacy of violence." 
This decision has never been overturned, although there are probably many subsequent cases, mostlydistrict court and appeals court, which cite it.  This decision is important to me especially:  I wrotemy Assassination Politics essay, and because of Brandenburg I am supposed to be Constitutionallyprotected even if I advocate violent crime, unless it will involve "imminent lawless action", such asa riot.
I think the mainstream media (MSM) should be flailed (figuratively speaking, of course!) for"interpreting" Trump's statement, choosing the interpretation they conclude will be considered most outrageous, and then pushing that as if it is somehow accurate and relevant. Do they ever do thatfor his main opponent, Hillary Clinton?  Not very often, if at all.
Another thing that should be done is to criticizing the news media for implicitly valuing HillaryClinton's life higher than that of other people.  While it may seem odd to value a life, courts do thisfrequently, often in the context of a civil lawsuit based on a wrongful death.  For example, ifa life is 'worth" $100,000 per year and actuaries can state how much longer than life would last, say 30years, if that person wrongfully dies, the damage is 30 x $100,000, or $3 million.
If, when elected, Hillary Clinton will waste, say, $500 billion per year, that amounts to theequivalent of:   $500 billion/$3 million, or 167,000 lives per year.  The kind of people who would criticizeDonald Trump's "NRA" statement involving Hillary would presumably claim that all human life isequal in value:  If they really believe that, they should realize that they must not value Hillary's lifeover that of a typical citizen.  How does the value of 1 life compare with 167,000 lives, the latter in each year over four years?  (No doubt that others will believe that Trump will also waste money; however, the numerous examples of new spending Hillary has proposed would have to result in huge tax increases, or at least enormous deficit spending, which is merely delayed taxation, or inflation.)
I believe that the public should be able to protect themselves against corrupt and incompetentpoliticians.  Naturally, those politicians won't agree.
            Jim Bell  
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From zen at freedbms.net  Tue Aug  9 17:05:50 2016
From: zen at freedbms.net (Zenaan Harkness)
Date: Wed, 10 Aug 2016 10:05:50 +1000
Subject: [WAR] Hillary Clinton, an MK Ultra drone, struggles with her
 programming
Message-ID: <20160810000550.GA6767@x220-a02>

This would have been a much sexier title than "Hillary health problems"
- "Hillary Clinton an MK Ultra drone, reaches untimely end to her
programming."

Pick or write your own heading and enjoy the show. Let's hope whoever
gets to lead the USA war machine is sane enough to not push the World
War 3 button against China, Russia or Iran.


She also puts pressure on Ecuador re Julian Assange, see further below.

----


** Hillary Clinton blacks-out during speech, attention focused on her true health [Video] (http://theduran.com/hillary-clinton-dizzy-blackout-spell-during-speech-focuses-attention-on-her-true-health/)
------------------------------------------------------------
By Alex Christoforou on Aug 09, 2016 01:03 pm
Hillary dizzy, blackout spell during speech, focuses attention on Clinton’s true health [Video]

As the Clinton campaign machine continues to attack Trump’s health and mental stability, with media stories portraying Trump as a sociopath or mentally challenged candidate, it appears that Hillary is once again deflecting and distracting the public from recognizing her own mental stability and health issues.

In an ironic twist of fate, it is not Donald Trump’s health that is now being called into question, but Hillary’s well being is now under severe scrutiny, as recent social media photos and recorded video speeches show a Clinton unable to walk, often forgetful and continuously blacking out in mid sentence.

The latest blackout spell came during this campaign speech where Hillary appears to just freeze up.

IFRAME: [1]http://www.youtube.com/embed/NlxWckQbpug?version=3&rel=1&fs=1&autohide=2&showsearch=0&showinfo=1&iv_load_policy=1&wmode=transparent

Zerohedge delves deeper into Hillary’s health mystery, in a post entitled, “Is Something Wrong With Hillary: Bizarre Behavior, Seizure Allegations Raise Doubts About Her Health.” (http://www.zerohedge.com/news/2016-08-08/something-wrong-hillary-bizarre-behavior-seizure-allegations-raise-doubts-about-her-)

As the presidential campaign enters its final stages, probing questions have emerged about the health condition of Hillary Clinton.

Hillary’ bizarre, erratic behavior on the campaign trail (culminating with last week’s perplexing “short-circuit” comment (http://www.zerohedge.com/news/2016-08-06/hillary-clinton-i-may-have-short-circuited-truth-about-email-scandal) ) has left many wondering whether she is seriously ill.  Hillary has at multiple times had convulsions that appear to be seizures on camera, including a series of seemingly inexplicable coughing fits.

Coughin-Hillary

A frequently referenced video, shown below, alleging that Hillary may have seizure-like conditions emerged several weeks ago and has so far failed to lead to a conclusive explanation whether Hillary may have ongoing health problems and potential residual aftereffects from a blood clot in her brain sustained three years ago.

Hillary-Clinton-has-seizure-when-talking-to-reporters-Imgur

Recall in January 2013, CNN reported that then Secretary of State Clinton was treated with blood thinners at a New York hospital to help dissolve a blood clot in her head. Back then doctors were confident she would make a full recovery. Clinton was admitted to New York Presbyterian Hospital on Sunday due to the clot that was discovered during a follow-up exam related to a concussion she suffered this month, her spokesman, Philippe Reines, said. The clot was located in the vein between the brain and and the skull behind Clinton’s right ear and did not result in any stroke or neurological damage, her doctors said in a statement.

Going further back, in 2005 then Senator Hillary fainted during a speech in Buffalo, NY, where she received medical attention on site. “About five minutes into the speech, she said she was queasy,” said Erie County Democratic Chairman Len Lenihan, who was at the Women’s TAP fund-raiser at the private club. “Clinton left the podium and continued her talk sitting in a chair but eventually left the room, saying she needed a break, Lenihan said. She returned to the podium a short time later but fainted before resuming her speech. “It became clear she was faint. She was sort of brought down gracefully,” he said.

The room was cleared, and Clinton immediately received medical attention from, among others, a doctor who attended the event.

And so, questions about Hillary’s health remain, especially after photos emerged over the weekend showing Hillary demonstrating unease while climbing stairs.

Hillary-being-helped-up-stairs-stroke

This has led to further speculation about the identity of a man, allegedly part of her secret service, who some has been dubbed as her “handler”, a person who is supposedly her personal doctor.

Hillary’s Handler? Brain washer? pic.twitter.com/5lsCTc8Vdk (https://t.co/5lsCTc8Vdk)

— Mike Cernovich (@Cernovich) August 7, 2016 (https://twitter.com/Cernovich/status/762136251029913600)

Hillary-seizure-doctor

As Mike Cernovich points out (http://www.dangerandplay.com/2016/08/07/who-is-hillarys-handler-doctor-stroke-seizure/) , here’s a picture of Hillary’s handler before he joined Secret Service. He’s in casual attire.

Every SS agent is in a suit. Hillary’s handler is causal. Something huge is up. https://t.co/MR1a1YkMCt pic.twitter.com/T2UIZ1u4JJ (https://t.co/T2UIZ1u4JJ)

— Mike Cernovich (@Cernovich) August 7, 2016 (https://twitter.com/Cernovich/status/762400137742323712)

We saw this first “doctor” during Hillary’s recent freeze-up. As the following captures show, Hillary’s handler appears always ready to reassure Hillary, moving Secret Service Agents out of the way, urging her to “keep talking”. According to Cernovich “this handler is not an ordinary SS agent.”

Secret Service agents walk on stage during Hillary Clinton rally https://t.co/Btp1na4Pxt

— ABC News Politics (@ABCPolitics) August 4, 2016 (https://twitter.com/ABCPolitics/status/761296190264647681)

Further adding to the mystery, Cernovich also points out – in an unconfirmed report – that the so called “handler” appears to carry a Diazepam pen.

hillary-handler-seizure-drug-575x408

hillary-handler-diazepam-575x816

The device in question is a Diazepam auto-injector pens are used for for Acute Repetitive Seizures. (http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/16340187)  Diazepam is one of the medications prescribed for patients who experience recurrent seizures

Diazepam is used to treat anxiety disorders, alcohol withdrawal symptoms, or muscle spasms. https://t.co/KFEXhwQEkN

— MF (@TWA2Garp) August 8, 2016 (https://twitter.com/TWA2Garp/status/762468212516622336)

These details emerge just a day after the American Psychiatric Association has told its member not to call presidential candidates mentally ill, envisioning recent allegations involving Donald Trump.

As The Hill notes (http://thehill.com/blogs/ballot-box/presidential-races/290690-psychological-organization-to-members-dont-analyze-donald) , “following a bad week for Donald Trump, in which he insulted a Gold Star family and declined to endorse Speaker Paul Ryan before doing it anyway on Friday, many have started to question whether Trump has a personality disorder.”

“We’re asking ourselves — I didn’t say this, but this is what everybody is saying: Is Donald Trump a sociopath?” MSNBC host Joe Scarborough asked earlier this week.

A California Democrat Wednesday launched a change.org petition calling for Trump to undergo a mental health evaluation, suggesting he may have a narcissistic personality disorder. More than 25,000 have signed it as of Sunday.

While much of this may be in good humor, and meant to focus attention on Trump’s bombastic statements, perhaps the time has come for a serious look into Hillary Clinton’s own health history, especially since most polls still have her beating trump, and she may very well be America’s next president.

Via: http://www.zerohedge.com/news/2016-08-08/something-wrong-hillary-bizarre-behavior-seizure-allegations-raise-doubts-about-her-

The post Hillary Clinton blacks-out during speech, attention focused on her true health [Video] (http://theduran.com/hillary-clinton-dizzy-blackout-spell-during-speech-focuses-attention-on-her-true-health/) appeared first on The Duran (http://theduran.com) .

References

1. http://www.youtube.com/embed/NlxWckQbpug?version=3&rel=1&fs=1&autohide=2&showsearch=0&showinfo=1&iv_load_policy=1&wmode=transparent
Read in browser » (http://theduran.com/hillary-clinton-dizzy-blackout-spell-during-speech-focuses-attention-on-her-true-health/)
http://twitter.com/share?url=http%3A%2F%2Ftheduran.com%2Fhillary-clinton-dizzy-blackout-spell-during-speech-focuses-attention-on-her-true-health%2F&text=Hillary+Clinton+blacks-out+during+speech%2C+attention+focused+on+her+true+health+%5BVideo%5D&count=none http://us13.campaign-archive2.com/?u=3a63c9fc90debaab0b552af47&id=027b2a548f&fblike=fblike-ed7e2354&e=[UNIQID]&socialproxy=http%3A%2F%2Fus13.campaign-archive2.com%2Fsocial-proxy%2Ffacebook-like%3Fu%3D3a63c9fc90debaab0b552af47%26id%3D027b2a548f%26url%3Dhttp%253A%252F%252Ftheduran.com%252Fhillary-clinton-dizzy-blackout-spell-during-speech-focuses-attention-on-her-true-health%252F%26title%3DHillary%2520Clinton%2520blacks-out%2520during%2520speech...




** Hillary Clinton leverages media in Ecuador to ‘reconsider’ Julian Assange’s asylum in London (http://theduran.com/hillary-clinton-leverages-media-ecuador-reconsider-julian-assange-asylum/)
------------------------------------------------------------
By Alex Christoforou on Aug 09, 2016 01:53 pm
EMBARGOED UNTIL 0001GMT ON WEDNESDAY, JUNE 19, 2013 Wikileaks founder Julian Assange speaks to the media inside the Ecuadorian Embassy in London on June 14, 2013, ahead of the first anniversary of his arrival there on June 19, 2012. A year after seeking refuge at the Ecuadorian embassy in London, Julian Assange remains fearful of US "revenge" over the WikiLeaks disclosures and aware that the diplomatic deadlock over his case may continue for months, if not years. AFP PHOTO/POOL/ANTHONY DEVLIN (Photo credit should read Anthony Devlin/AFP/Getty Images)

Last month at the DNC, Wikileaks unleashed a cache of emails that showed the Democratic party and Hillary Clinton had conspired to rig the primary elections (http://theduran.com/trump-nails-calls-entire-democratic-primary-election-rigged/) against Bernie Sanders.

Assange also released, to much less publicity, 1,700 emails that showed Hillary Clinton (http://theduran.com/julian-assange-says-1700-emails-hillary-clintons-collection-proves-sold-weapons-isis-syria/) was directly involved in the destabilisation of Libya and Syria, and knowingly funneled weapons to Al Qaeda and ISIS.

The Clinton campaign diverted all of America’s attention away from what should of been a massive scandal (with charges of treason levied on Hillary Clinton) by simply conjuring up the spectre of Russian aggression and Vladimir Putin. America fell for it and the media promoted the Clinton diversion tactic as they were instructed to do.

As teflon Hillary continues to run amok, above any law, doing anything she pleases, Assange’s Wikileaks has promised another tranche of emails that will further expose Clinton’s massive corruption, and appetite for all out war.

The Democratic party will risk no more Wikileaks’s induced speed bumps, in the coronation process of the first woman president, and the establishment’s ultimate insider war hawk.

That is why reports out of Ecuador are now pointing to increased pressure on the Ecuador government to remove Assange’s asylum status, and finally expel him from the Ecuador embassy, and into UK police custody…where American authorities wait patently to lock Assange up for life, never to be heard from again.

Hillary can then smoothly move on to becoming the next US President, as was planned nearly two years ago.

Ecuador govt under serious pressure to censor Assange over #DNCLeak (https://twitter.com/hashtag/DNCLeak?src=hash) & criticism of Clinton https://t.co/GYrYbdHyhd & https://t.co/x9zN4NKdof

— WikiLeaks (@wikileaks) August 8, 2016 (https://twitter.com/wikileaks/status/762666065834967040)

Media in Ecuador is now calling for Assange’s asylum status to be reconsidered. ElComercio.com had this to say (http://www.elcomercio.com/opinion/julianassange-asilo-ecuador-joseayalalasso-opinion.html) …

In this context, it happens that the author of the mess is none other than the person to whom Ecuador has granted asylum and protection to for more than four years. I was the first to say that Assange has, like all other human beings, inalienable rights, that must be respected. However, an asylum seeker also has obligations that cannot be ignored. He should not “perform acts that disturb the public peace, or to participate and influence political activities” and he also must respect and not harm, with his actions, the country that decided to give him asylum.

Unfortunately, Ecuador has not set a limit to the conduct of Assange, and has allowed him to violate his asylum status, and taunt those who seek asylum. His latest interference in US politics could have worldwide consequences, of which Ecuador, Assange’s protector, will not leave unscathed. If London has refused to closer ties with Ecuador, because of Assange, then Washington is expected to react in the same way. And the United States is our best commercial partner!

I said that, once granted asylum, Ecuador is bound to honor it. However, given the gruesome performance by Assange, he undoubtedly violates his refugee status, and it should be considered whether this conduct, taken to such extremes, is a good reason for Ecuador to end the asylum.

The post Hillary Clinton leverages media in Ecuador to ‘reconsider’ Julian Assange’s asylum in London (http://theduran.com/hillary-clinton-leverages-media-ecuador-reconsider-julian-assange-asylum/) appeared first on The Duran (http://theduran.com) .
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From zen at freedbms.net  Tue Aug  9 17:14:59 2016
From: zen at freedbms.net (Zenaan Harkness)
Date: Wed, 10 Aug 2016 10:14:59 +1000
Subject: [LAW] USA sets standard for seizing and distributing foreign assets
 - karma's boomerang anticipated
Message-ID: <20160810001459.GB6767@x220-a02>

Once that standard is set, it is a public record for the future. The USA
is quite clear with the world how it would like its "national assets"
handled by other nations when eventually the North American hegemon
falls...

-----


** Iran’s Mahmoud Ahmadinejad demands Barack Obama ‘pay another $2 billion’ (http://theduran.com/former-iranian-president-ahmadinejad-tells-barack-obama-to-pay-us-another-2-billion-in-back-debt/)
------------------------------------------------------------
By Alex Christoforou on Aug 08, 2016 10:33 pm
Mideast_Iran_500566a

As Obama tries to explain away the $400 million (http://theduran.com/barack-obama-says-donald-trump-unfit-president-gets-caught-sending-400m-iran/) he [DEL: airlifted :DEL] paid to Iran last week in return for hostages (http://theduran.com/american-hostage-saeed-abidini-says-plane-not-allowed-leave-obamas-400-million-cash-plane-landed-iran/) , or in line with a a Hague Court agreement (whichever one you are more inclined to believe), former Iranian president Mahmoud Ahmadinejad, is figuring that while Obama has his hands in his pockets, might as well ask for a little more.

In this case Ahmadinejad is advising US President Barack Obama to return $2 billion seized from Iran in order to help ease a “bitter past”.

The letter was delivered to the White House through the Swiss embassy in Tehran, which represents US diplomatic interests in Iran.

It urges Obama to “quickly fix” the issue surrounding frozen Iranian assets.

The letter begins with the traditional Islamic greeting “As-salamun alaykum,” and was released by the Dolate-Bahar (http://www.dolatebahar.com/view/294933/%D9%81%D9%88%D8%B1%DB%8C-%D9%86%D8%A7%D9%85%D9%87-%D9%85%D9%87%D9%85-%D8%AF%DA%A9%D8%AA%D8%B1-%D8%A7%D8%AD%D9%85%D8%AF%DB%8C-%D9%86%DA%98%D8%A7%D8%AF-%D8%A8%D9%87-%D8%A7%D9%88%D8%A8%D8%A7%D9%85%D8%A7-%D8%AA%D8%A7-%D8%B3%D8%A7%D8%B9%D8%A7%D8%AA%DB%8C-%D8%AF%DB%8C%DA%AF%D8%B1-%D9%85%D9%86%D8%AA%D8%B4%D8%B1-%D9%85%DB%8C-%D8%B4%D9%88%D8%AF)  website, which is run by Ahmadinejad’s supporters.

Former Iranian president Ahmadinejad advises @POTUS (https://twitter.com/POTUS) Obama in a letter published on a website run by his supporters: pic.twitter.com/MO44luDVNV (https://t.co/MO44luDVNV)

— Bozorgmehr Sharafedi (@bozorgmehr) August 8, 2016 (https://twitter.com/bozorgmehr/status/762587645306437632)

In an open letter addressed to the POTUS, Mahmoud Ahmadinejad gets straight to the point…

“You took office as the president of the United States amidst a climax in global frustration…following several decades of hegemonic policies and behavior of consecutive US administrations.”

“Your campaign slogan was ‘change’ and you claimed to be determined to change those policies as well as behaviors.”

“On June 9, 2014, a court in America, based on unfounded claims without presenting any reliable documents, issued a sentence based on which about two billion Dollars of the Iranian nation’s assets would be seized unlawfully.”

Ahmadinejad further wrote in the letter that Obama’s promise to restore ties with Tehran has never been fulfilled, “and the same hostile policies along with the same trend of enmity were pursued, in alternative ways.”

Iran believed a “compensation for the past would have been remedied” during Obama’s terms.

RT reports further (https://www.rt.com/news/355082-ahmadinejad-writes-letter-obama/) …

In April, the US Supreme Court ruled that Iranian assets worth $2 billion must be paid to American families whose relatives were killed in the Beirut and Saudi Arabia military attacks blamed on Iran, which took place in 1983 and 1996, respectively.

Notably, the ruling came despite an apparent easing of tensions between Tehran and the West, and the lifting of most sanctions following a nuclear deal framework agreement.

Iran responded angrily at the time, calling the move a “highway robbery” and “property seizure.” In mid-June, it was revealed that Tehran had filed a lawsuit against Washington to the UN International Court of Justice.

People in Iran hope “that the particular case of property seizure, which fully occurred during your term in office, and actually toward the end of the term, and which is counter to all international legal principles and rules, be quickly fixed by your excellency,” Ahmadinejad wrote.

Ahmadinejad said the letter “is by no means of political nature.”

The former Iranian President mention years of “oppression and cruelty by different American governments” against Iran.

Ahmadinejad the goes on to advise Obama to not let the moment go to waste, and wishes him well, as his letter concludes….

“I passionately advise you not to let the historical defamation and bitter incident be recorded under your name.”

“Best wishes for the health and well-being of all nations.”

Via: https://www.rt.com/news/355082-ahmadinejad-writes-letter-obama/

The post Iran’s Mahmoud Ahmadinejad demands Barack Obama ‘pay another $2 billion’ (http://theduran.com/former-iranian-president-ahmadinejad-tells-barack-obama-to-pay-us-another-2-billion-in-back-debt/) appeared first on The Duran (http://theduran.com) .
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From bastianifortress at yandex.com  Wed Aug 10 02:03:14 2016
From: bastianifortress at yandex.com (Bastiani Fortress)
Date: Wed, 10 Aug 2016 11:03:14 +0200
Subject: Anarchist Bibliography,
 please? (was Re: Deconstructing an Institutional Slander...)
In-Reply-To: <20160809194322.GA24863@synfin.org>
References: <CAG2tMp7R2Lo0RN11qkC_iC9-4=2gHzpbcZEOoLtRFkCJ6Cf_KA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAG2tMp70VXbY+0GJs3HApMq71TcBympeLg3QUuDDdHwmC6Cqwg@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAG2tMp4=q0aFUjcS8Gei2J9FqYfQnsWg0E5Vh_OtGjVuJ-_V0Q@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAG2tMp55nML9+v0hnLVfe+OqPsCMUNiB66FR-VjmTn3pkGSTRw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAG2tMp7M3BpOUOcv6fkOYK=cYvYCWmg3nFrL8QSGBF0JPr5pjg@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAG2tMp5A5AxiYHR4JQ-ECFCy80nsa8-xxYw5gs5vMEfHtHKRgg@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAG2tMp4HdMnuXO7K5OvAie1+f1bsU5_iDg-nEcy=PTvJfV+XFA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAG2tMp6sd1r-FwLWd2SmQTQ-JJJpCPyU9hDKKKkew8symGGtJQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAG2tMp5CmWA9rzgwDpe9XDYbOcKooAq15PrDD1UtorcnPZo--Q@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAG2tMp5VUSFrJJXVXU35VBkY4trmH8K+7yECpnQAvfX7iRF3qQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <20160809194322.GA24863@synfin.org>
Message-ID: <770311470819794@web20h.yandex.ru>

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From rayzer at riseup.net  Wed Aug 10 11:05:10 2016
From: rayzer at riseup.net (Rayzer)
Date: Wed, 10 Aug 2016 11:05:10 -0700
Subject: Media's Lack of Knowledge of Law should be Embarrassing
In-Reply-To: <1375987660.14308177.1470819562572.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com>
References: <1375987660.14308177.1470819562572.JavaMail.yahoo.ref@mail.yahoo.com>
 <1375987660.14308177.1470819562572.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <d09128a7-d691-0185-d807-bcf245503e5e@riseup.net>

My tweets regarding the latest stupid thing fat boy said to get the
cameras pointing at him (/and the media is making BANK on advertising
due to his words, not a one of which he believes/) had this tenor:

There's no law against suggesting people go hunting politicians
INCLUDING Donald Trump. Beware of an 'incitement' rap, and:

I'd gladly trade a bunch of dead politicians INCLUDING DONALD TRUMP, for
a similar number murdered by police for #WalkingWhileBlack and
#DrivingWhileBlack

Rr


On 08/10/2016 01:59 AM, jim bell wrote:
> Today, there was yet another manufactured scandal involving the media.
>  Apparently Trump
> made a comment about Hillary Clinton and the NRA, which the mainstream
> media is portraying
> as some sort of a threat against her.  No doubt that media is unaware of
> the Supreme Court
> case Brandenburg v. Ohio (1969),  
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brandenburg_v._Ohio    According
> to Wikipedia, this decision held that "The Court held that government
> cannot punish inflammatory
>  speech unless that speech is directed to inciting, and is likely to
> incite, imminent lawless action.
>  Specifically, it struck down Ohio's criminal syndicalism statute,
> because that statute broadly
>  prohibited the mere advocacy of violence." 
> 
> This decision has never been overturned, although there are probably
> many subsequent cases, mostly
> district court and appeals court, which cite it.  This decision is
> important to me especially:  I wrote
> my Assassination Politics essay, and because of Brandenburg I am
> supposed to be Constitutionally
> protected even if I advocate violent crime, unless it will involve
> "imminent lawless action", such as
> a riot.
> 
> I think the mainstream media (MSM) should be flailed (figuratively
> speaking, of course!) for
> "interpreting" Trump's statement, choosing the interpretation they
> conclude will be considered most 
> outrageous, and then pushing that as if it is somehow accurate and
> relevant. Do they ever do that
> for his main opponent, Hillary Clinton?  Not very often, if at all.
> 
> Another thing that should be done is to criticizing the news media for
> implicitly valuing Hillary
> Clinton's life higher than that of other people.  While it may seem odd
> to value a life, courts do this
> frequently, often in the context of a civil lawsuit based on a wrongful
> death.  For example, if
> a life is 'worth" $100,000 per year and actuaries can state how much
> longer than life would last, say 30
> years, if that person wrongfully dies, the damage is 30 x $100,000, or
> $3 million.
> 
> If, when elected, Hillary Clinton will waste, say, $500 billion per
> year, that amounts to the
> equivalent of:   $500 billion/$3 million, or 167,000 lives per year.
>  The kind of people who would criticize
> Donald Trump's "NRA" statement involving Hillary would presumably claim
> that all human life is
> equal in value:  If they really believe that, they should realize that
> they must not value Hillary's life
> over that of a typical citizen.  How does the value of 1 life compare
> with 167,000 lives, the latter in 
> each year over four years?  (No doubt that others will believe that
> Trump will also waste money;
>  however, the numerous examples of new spending Hillary has proposed
> would have to result in
>  huge tax increases, or at least enormous deficit spending, which is
> merely delayed taxation, or inflation.)
> 
> I believe that the public should be able to protect themselves against
> corrupt and incompetent
> politicians.  Naturally, those politicians won't agree.
> 
>             Jim Bell  




From zen at freedbms.net  Tue Aug  9 19:11:48 2016
From: zen at freedbms.net (Zenaan Harkness)
Date: Wed, 10 Aug 2016 12:11:48 +1000
Subject: [MONEY] Behind Closed Doors at the IMF
Message-ID: <20160810021148.GD6767@x220-a02>

The following provides a plain english note on a couple of foundations
of the IMF which some may not have grokked before (SDRs will cause/ be
blamed for future inflation ('through the back door')), although it
ultimately devolves into a book advertisement (which I guess may be of
interest anyway considering the topic).

Its structure is mildly deceptive - the author ought to have (in my
world shatteringly high opinion) been upfront that his article arises
from a new book he is hawking.

Zenaan



----------
Behind Closed Doors at the IMF

By Jim Rickards, Strategist, Strategic Intelligence

The Washington, DC, area is thick with secret agencies with ‘three-letter names’, such as CIA, FBI, NSA and less well-known outfits such as the Defense Intelligence Agency (DIA) and the Director of National Intelligence (DNI).

One of the most powerful, and also most secretive, of these agencies is an institution that is not even part of the US government. It’s an autonomous part of an emerging scheme of global governance accountable only to a small elite of central bankers, finance ministers and heads of state. That institution is the International Monetary Fund, or the IMF.

Everything about the IMF is designed to deceive you — beginning with the name. The IMF is not really a ‘fund’ in the sense of an endowment or mutual fund; it functions as the central bank of the world, taking deposits, called ‘borrowings’, from countries around the world and making loans to its members.

It prints money like most central banks, but this world money has the opaque name of special drawing right, or SDR.

Now, when I say world money, it sounds kind of spooky or scary, but special drawing right is a funny name. The global financial elites pick strange names for what they’re doing so people don’t understand what it is. The International Monetary Fund (IMF) can print these SDRs.

They have in the past — there’s nothing new about it. SDRs were created in 1969, and hundreds of billions of them have been issued over the years. But the IMF only issues them when there’s a financial panic. They don’t issue them every day or when times are good.

You will not be able to use them, touch them or feel them. You will not be able to spend them. You will not have them. SDRs are not going to be walking-around money. You’ll still have dollars, but the dollars will be a local currency, not a global reserve currency.

So for example, when I go to Turkey, I cash in some US dollars and get some Turkish lira. I use the lira to pay for taxis in Turkey. Then when I leave, I cash them out again. That will be how the US dollar is used. You’ll use the US dollar when you come to the United States, but it’ll be like the Aussie dollar: something you use when you go there.

The dollar won’t be the important global reserve currency. The SDR will be used for the settlement of the balance of payments between countries, the price of oil and perhaps the financial statements of the 100 largest global corporations. The impact on everyday investors will be inflationary.

The difference, however, is that, right now, if we have inflation, everyone blames the Fed. In the future, however, you’ll have inflation coming from SDRs. That means when people try to blame the Fed, the Fed will say it’s not us; it’s those guys over there on G Street in Northwest Washington. Go blame them. No one even knows where the IMF is. So the SDR is just a way to get inflation through the back door.

The IMF has a convoluted governance structure in which the highest decision-making body, the Board of Governors, has little power because the votes are weighted in favour of the largest economies, such as the US. Actual power rests with the blandly named International Monetary and Financial Committee, the IMFC.

Everything about the IMF is designed to make it difficult for outsiders like you to have any idea what is going on.

The insiders like that arrangement just fine.

Given this culture and history, it was surprising to see the publication a few years back of a book by Liaquat Ahamed, Money and Tough Love — On Tour With the IMF . The book is the most detailed account yet from behind the scenes at IMF headquarters.

The author also reports on an IMF annual meeting in Tokyo and goes on the road with IMF ‘missions’ as they monitor large and small governments around the world. These missions are the key to forcing governments to conform to the ‘rules of the game’ as established by the global monetary elites.

Ahamed had difficulty getting the cooperation of the IMF and access to IMF meetings and missions he needed to write the book. In the opening section, he writes, he soon discovers that gaining access to the world behind its doors will not be easy. The fund is the repository of many secrets, which it guards ferociously. It does its work behind the scenes, out of the public eye, and has a history of being wary of the press… The fund benefits from a certain mystique that could be lost by too much openness.

In the end, Ahamed was granted access by IMF Managing Director Christine Lagarde. What follows is a revealing account that is part history, part economics and part James Bond as Ahamed travels from Washington to Tokyo, Dublin, and Maputo, Mozambique. He describes IMF interactions with other members of the global power elite, as well as the IMF’s member countries in both the developed world and among the poorest.

Importantly, the book is highly accessible. Ahamed avoids the arcane jargon that fills most accounts of the IMF as well as the IMF’s official publications and reports. Anyone with the slightest interest in the workings of the international monetary system will find this book an excellent guide to how the IMF goes about its business on a day-to-day basis, and how the IMF has the power to make or break sovereign governments by deciding whether or not to make loans when those governments are in financial distress.

One of the book’s main takeaways is the demonstration that the IMF is just as powerful as the military and CIA when it comes to forcing regime change in governments that do not follow US orders. Of course, the IMF does this without firing a shot. They use money as a weapon just as effectively as the military uses special operations or the CIA uses drones.

Second, if Western nations lose votes in the IMF and those votes are given to communist China, then the IMF money weapons may be aimed at the US in the future.

In recent decades, the emerging markets and southern Europe have needed IMF bailouts. In the future, the US may be the one that needs to be bailed out, and we may have to accept conditions imposed by China using the IMF as its monetary agent.

The book is also timely. While the IMF has always been opaque, its importance to global finance has waxed and waned over the decades. Now the IMF is about to enter its most powerful stage yet.

Central banks bailed out the world in 2008. The next financial panic will be bigger than the ability of central banks to put out the fire. At that point, the only source of global liquidity will be the IMF itself.

The issuance of five trillion SDRs, equal to US$7.5 trillion, to paper over the next financial panic will be highly inflationary. The difference between this coming inflation and those in the past is that few investors will know where the inflation is coming from.

Politically, it will not be easy to hold the US Treasury or the Federal Reserve accountable, because they will just point a finger at the IMF.

The one true advantage of SDRs is that very few people understand them, and there’s no political accountability.

Understanding the financial world’s fire department before the next great fire will give you an advantage when it comes.

Cheers,

Jim Rickards,

For The Daily Reckoning

Editor’s Note: This article was originally published in The Daily Reckoning US http://click2.portphillippublishing.com.au/t/FA/Fdc/KX8/AAmANg/G_E/AASMFA/AQ/jN09 .




From mirimir at riseup.net  Wed Aug 10 13:02:36 2016
From: mirimir at riseup.net (Mirimir)
Date: Wed, 10 Aug 2016 14:02:36 -0600
Subject: Die Zeit interviews Appelbaum ioerror
In-Reply-To: <CAD2Ti2-NXpt9293VJV95k+7Z0eh68j8iEJRjURJZgvgYQy4fYg@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAD2Ti2-NXpt9293VJV95k+7Z0eh68j8iEJRjURJZgvgYQy4fYg@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <e52220f3-d022-5e8b-c0d7-443478fa0e5d@riseup.net>

On 08/10/2016 01:24 PM, grarpamp wrote:
> http://www.zeit.de/kultur/2016-08/jacob-appelbaum-rape-allegations-contradictions
> 
> Inconsistencies have emerged in the allegations of rape and sexual
> assault against American Internet activist Jacob Appelbaum. Reporting
> by the weekly newspaper DIE ZEIT shows there is considerable doubt
> about the veracity of the claims.
> 
> Tracking mentions...
> https://github.com/Enegnei/JacobAppelbaumLeavesTor

It does look more and more like an SJW lynching, doesn't it?

Being a sexually aggressive male seems dangerous in geek community.
Maybe that's why transgender whatever is becoming so popular. You get to
fuck everyone, and you have protected status ;)




From grarpamp at gmail.com  Wed Aug 10 12:24:40 2016
From: grarpamp at gmail.com (grarpamp)
Date: Wed, 10 Aug 2016 15:24:40 -0400
Subject: Die Zeit interviews Appelbaum ioerror
Message-ID: <CAD2Ti2-NXpt9293VJV95k+7Z0eh68j8iEJRjURJZgvgYQy4fYg@mail.gmail.com>

http://www.zeit.de/kultur/2016-08/jacob-appelbaum-rape-allegations-contradictions

Inconsistencies have emerged in the allegations of rape and sexual
assault against American Internet activist Jacob Appelbaum. Reporting
by the weekly newspaper DIE ZEIT shows there is considerable doubt
about the veracity of the claims.

Tracking mentions...
https://github.com/Enegnei/JacobAppelbaumLeavesTor




From admin at pilobilus.net  Wed Aug 10 13:05:49 2016
From: admin at pilobilus.net (Steve Kinney)
Date: Wed, 10 Aug 2016 16:05:49 -0400
Subject: Assange outs the DNC e-mail "leaker"
Message-ID: <51df3755-acf1-940a-b09a-962dac8ac4ea@pilobilus.net>

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1

Julian Assange has, in a deniable and snarky way, told the world that
DNC staff member Seth Rich was the source of the DNC e-mail leak.  And
put a $20k bounty on the head of whoever murdered him.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Kp7FkLBRpKg

https://twitter.com/wikileaks/status/763041804652539904

As a "legal" variant on AP, crowdfunding a more than matching bounty
could be a useful exercise.  There would of course have to be a time
limit, and an alternate beneficiary in the event that the reward goes
unclaimed.  Wikileaks itself seems like a good candidate for the
alternative beneficiary.


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Version: GnuPG v2.0.22 (GNU/Linux)

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=JOXF
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From mirimir at riseup.net  Wed Aug 10 17:17:41 2016
From: mirimir at riseup.net (Mirimir)
Date: Wed, 10 Aug 2016 18:17:41 -0600
Subject: Die Zeit interviews Appelbaum ioerror
In-Reply-To: <868e46d9-d32c-d112-ebfb-b8507f8c1077@gmail.com>
References: <CAD2Ti2-NXpt9293VJV95k+7Z0eh68j8iEJRjURJZgvgYQy4fYg@mail.gmail.com>
 <e52220f3-d022-5e8b-c0d7-443478fa0e5d@riseup.net>
 <868e46d9-d32c-d112-ebfb-b8507f8c1077@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <c817c9e0-1796-7345-1b8e-a884c2791613@riseup.net>

On 08/10/2016 05:35 PM, Marina Brown wrote:
> On 08/10/2016 04:02 PM, Mirimir wrote:
>> On 08/10/2016 01:24 PM, grarpamp wrote:
>>> http://www.zeit.de/kultur/2016-08/jacob-appelbaum-rape-allegations-contradictions
>>>
>>> Inconsistencies have emerged in the allegations of rape and sexual
>>> assault against American Internet activist Jacob Appelbaum. Reporting
>>> by the weekly newspaper DIE ZEIT shows there is considerable doubt
>>> about the veracity of the claims.
>>>
>>> Tracking mentions...
>>> https://github.com/Enegnei/JacobAppelbaumLeavesTor
>>
>> It does look more and more like an SJW lynching, doesn't it?
>>
>> Being a sexually aggressive male seems dangerous in geek community.
>> Maybe that's why transgender whatever is becoming so popular. You get to
>> fuck everyone, and you have protected status ;)
>>
>>
> 
> I'm just a cranky old transexual farmer who loves to work with privacy
> systems. No one wants to fuck this nearly 51 year old woman so really,
> Take your bigotry and fuck the hell off.

Sour grapes? ;)

No bigotry, just observation. Look at which promiscuous players have
been targeted, and which are happily fucking away.

> Shut up and code.
> 
> --- Marina Brown
> 




From cecilia.tanaka at gmail.com  Wed Aug 10 14:22:50 2016
From: cecilia.tanaka at gmail.com (Cecilia Tanaka)
Date: Wed, 10 Aug 2016 18:22:50 -0300
Subject: Assange outs the DNC e-mail "leaker"
In-Reply-To: <51df3755-acf1-940a-b09a-962dac8ac4ea@pilobilus.net>
References: <51df3755-acf1-940a-b09a-962dac8ac4ea@pilobilus.net>
Message-ID: <CAG2tMp4bTQDWS+zf4Q4=xOsjRpm4fceE8KXTycKtr7OxT6Y31w@mail.gmail.com>

It's a cute tweet too, my dear.  Turkish women and Wikileaks...  :)

<https://twitter.com/wikileaks/status/763093116190597120>

I was listening to Chet Baker, but the day is being very fun.  I will
change my soundtrack to something heavier and faster!  :)

PS:  -  Sorry, always troll, but a tender troll, Steve.  Chet Baker is very
sweet, ow!  <3  *-*  <3  *-*
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From mirimir at riseup.net  Wed Aug 10 17:40:19 2016
From: mirimir at riseup.net (Mirimir)
Date: Wed, 10 Aug 2016 18:40:19 -0600
Subject: Die Zeit interviews Appelbaum ioerror
In-Reply-To: <868e46d9-d32c-d112-ebfb-b8507f8c1077@gmail.com>
References: <CAD2Ti2-NXpt9293VJV95k+7Z0eh68j8iEJRjURJZgvgYQy4fYg@mail.gmail.com>
 <e52220f3-d022-5e8b-c0d7-443478fa0e5d@riseup.net>
 <868e46d9-d32c-d112-ebfb-b8507f8c1077@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <20fa2efc-7c8f-69b0-c533-eb2a78ce2de4@riseup.net>

On 08/10/2016 05:35 PM, Marina Brown wrote:
> On 08/10/2016 04:02 PM, Mirimir wrote:
>> On 08/10/2016 01:24 PM, grarpamp wrote:
>>> http://www.zeit.de/kultur/2016-08/jacob-appelbaum-rape-allegations-contradictions
>>>
>>> Inconsistencies have emerged in the allegations of rape and sexual
>>> assault against American Internet activist Jacob Appelbaum. Reporting
>>> by the weekly newspaper DIE ZEIT shows there is considerable doubt
>>> about the veracity of the claims.
>>>
>>> Tracking mentions...
>>> https://github.com/Enegnei/JacobAppelbaumLeavesTor
>>
>> It does look more and more like an SJW lynching, doesn't it?
>>
>> Being a sexually aggressive male seems dangerous in geek community.
>> Maybe that's why transgender whatever is becoming so popular. You get to
>> fuck everyone, and you have protected status ;)
>>
>>
> 
> I'm just a cranky old transexual farmer who loves to work with privacy
> systems. No one wants to fuck this nearly 51 year old woman so really,
> Take your bigotry and fuck the hell off.

Also, by the way, I'm pointing out that the community is bigoted. That
there is a double standard. So do you argue that it's bigoted to point
out bigotry?

> Shut up and code.
> 
> --- Marina Brown
> 




From mirimir at riseup.net  Wed Aug 10 17:45:31 2016
From: mirimir at riseup.net (Mirimir)
Date: Wed, 10 Aug 2016 18:45:31 -0600
Subject: Die Zeit interviews Appelbaum ioerror
In-Reply-To: <CAG2tMp6Vz-9Uz2HUjzEGTFXn3Zy8mx1FQdBsSsZquU8eSFMhPQ@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAD2Ti2-NXpt9293VJV95k+7Z0eh68j8iEJRjURJZgvgYQy4fYg@mail.gmail.com>
 <e52220f3-d022-5e8b-c0d7-443478fa0e5d@riseup.net>
 <868e46d9-d32c-d112-ebfb-b8507f8c1077@gmail.com>
 <CAG2tMp6Vz-9Uz2HUjzEGTFXn3Zy8mx1FQdBsSsZquU8eSFMhPQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <e940d926-76b0-8704-d846-26b6b731f82c@riseup.net>

On 08/10/2016 06:17 PM, Cecilia Tanaka wrote:
> On Aug 10, 2016 8:42 PM, "Marina Brown" <catskillmarina at gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>> On 08/10/2016 04:02 PM, Mirimir wrote:
>>>
>>> <SNIP>
> 
> Jake always considered himself a queer, bisexual man.  It was part of his
> "problems" when he was publicly judged for his sexuality.  A lot of
> moralist, hypocrite people judging his gender, his sexual preferences, not
> his character, his real acts.
> 
> I've "lost" a "friend", because she said "Jake certainly raped these
> people, once he was promiscuous enough to have sexual intercourses with
> both genders".
> 
> So much prejudice, aff...  Very disgusting.  Judge a person for their
> gender and for their sexuality is very stupid.

Just to be clear, I'm not judging anyone's sexuality. I'm pointing out
that the community has a double standard. That people like Jake who act
male (even if they're gay or bisexual) get lynched. But people who are
just as promiscuous, but act female or androgynous, get a pass. They get
to be victims.




From cecilia.tanaka at gmail.com  Wed Aug 10 15:31:00 2016
From: cecilia.tanaka at gmail.com (Cecilia Tanaka)
Date: Wed, 10 Aug 2016 19:31:00 -0300
Subject: Die Zeit interviews Appelbaum ioerror
In-Reply-To: <e52220f3-d022-5e8b-c0d7-443478fa0e5d@riseup.net>
References: <CAD2Ti2-NXpt9293VJV95k+7Z0eh68j8iEJRjURJZgvgYQy4fYg@mail.gmail.com>
 <e52220f3-d022-5e8b-c0d7-443478fa0e5d@riseup.net>
Message-ID: <CAG2tMp5cbgseqeq8=5URCVq0rc29+mdjeHF7axPSFAYh9t=L4Q@mail.gmail.com>

All the times when I read River, I remember it's a pseudonym very used in
sites of sex stories about BDSM or to contact eventual sexual partners.
The same about Rain, Forest and other nicknames like these.  I don't know
if it was just a coincidence, a bad joke or if it is their nature, their
sexual preference.

Well, usually, a vanilla person would not choose this kind of pseudonym,
but I really don't care about their sexual practices.  I just think it's
very fun see chaste, immaculate, innocent vanilla people using hardcore
BDSM nicks.  Really hypocrite, considering that Jake, in some moments, was
judged for his sexuality, not for his character.

I am late with some really important answers, but as I told to a contact
some days later, and repeated to another person today, Jake always
respected me and all my female friends a lot, acting like a real gentleman
and, believe me, some of them are beautiful women and tried to flirt with
him hardly.  :P

He was a very handsome, charismatic, sexy, famous, intelligent man, walking
among lots of all kinds of activists, men and women, in several events
around the whole world.  Very glamorous.  Becoming one of his lovers or
girlfriends was a way of increasing social status, so he really refused a
lot of crazy invasive people to avoid problems and being related to these
people.  He could have sex very easily, in all the places and parties,
without "raping" someone.

I saw it happening in person.  He was very professional and gentle,
refusing more intimate contacts in a polite and discreet way.  He rejected
one of my personal friends in a Brazilian event and she is a young
intelligent woman, much more beautiful and interesting than me.  It is
strange for a 'serial rapist', a crazy psychopath, isn't it?  :-/

Well, let's wait to discover what will happen.  There are lots of things
that simply don't make sense in all this drama.  It would not be rational
or reasonable.

Kisses and hugs for all of you!  :*  <3

Ceci

PS:  -  Ah, a silly curiosity!  One of "Rivers" liked a lot to write about
incest and bestiality, hardcore taboo themes in general, but I really liked
her writing style, so I tried to contact her to ask about the choice of her
pseudonym.

I never received an answer, but it was an interesting experience.  I think
this River in special is a girl, not a guy, and she is very intelligent.
Their stories are very disturbing  -  too 'eeck!!!' for my taste, ugh!  -,
but are intelligent and she got some archetypical desires, with subtle
references to Greek legends.  She is not a stupid girl trying to get
audience.  (Different of the j.a. group members' initial pattern, haha!!)

Well, sex with animals is not vegan, but all the people are animals and I
suppose her "lovers", if really exist, receive a good treatment.  ;)
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From catskillmarina at gmail.com  Wed Aug 10 16:35:34 2016
From: catskillmarina at gmail.com (Marina Brown)
Date: Wed, 10 Aug 2016 19:35:34 -0400
Subject: Die Zeit interviews Appelbaum ioerror
In-Reply-To: <e52220f3-d022-5e8b-c0d7-443478fa0e5d@riseup.net>
References: <CAD2Ti2-NXpt9293VJV95k+7Z0eh68j8iEJRjURJZgvgYQy4fYg@mail.gmail.com>
 <e52220f3-d022-5e8b-c0d7-443478fa0e5d@riseup.net>
Message-ID: <868e46d9-d32c-d112-ebfb-b8507f8c1077@gmail.com>

On 08/10/2016 04:02 PM, Mirimir wrote:
> On 08/10/2016 01:24 PM, grarpamp wrote:
>> http://www.zeit.de/kultur/2016-08/jacob-appelbaum-rape-allegations-contradictions
>>
>> Inconsistencies have emerged in the allegations of rape and sexual
>> assault against American Internet activist Jacob Appelbaum. Reporting
>> by the weekly newspaper DIE ZEIT shows there is considerable doubt
>> about the veracity of the claims.
>>
>> Tracking mentions...
>> https://github.com/Enegnei/JacobAppelbaumLeavesTor
> 
> It does look more and more like an SJW lynching, doesn't it?
> 
> Being a sexually aggressive male seems dangerous in geek community.
> Maybe that's why transgender whatever is becoming so popular. You get to
> fuck everyone, and you have protected status ;)
> 
> 

I'm just a cranky old transexual farmer who loves to work with privacy
systems. No one wants to fuck this nearly 51 year old woman so really,
Take your bigotry and fuck the hell off.

Shut up and code.

--- Marina Brown

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From mirimir at riseup.net  Wed Aug 10 19:00:51 2016
From: mirimir at riseup.net (Mirimir)
Date: Wed, 10 Aug 2016 20:00:51 -0600
Subject: Die Zeit interviews Appelbaum ioerror
In-Reply-To: <a7b02994-ab28-eaf2-34b0-8eea069b6961@gmail.com>
References: <CAD2Ti2-NXpt9293VJV95k+7Z0eh68j8iEJRjURJZgvgYQy4fYg@mail.gmail.com>
 <e52220f3-d022-5e8b-c0d7-443478fa0e5d@riseup.net>
 <868e46d9-d32c-d112-ebfb-b8507f8c1077@gmail.com>
 <c817c9e0-1796-7345-1b8e-a884c2791613@riseup.net>
 <a7b02994-ab28-eaf2-34b0-8eea069b6961@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <c70d519c-9ddc-e6ce-7c43-d471ae074d4d@riseup.net>

On 08/10/2016 07:42 PM, Marina Brown wrote:
> On 08/10/2016 08:17 PM, Mirimir wrote:
>> On 08/10/2016 05:35 PM, Marina Brown wrote:
>>> On 08/10/2016 04:02 PM, Mirimir wrote:
>>>> On 08/10/2016 01:24 PM, grarpamp wrote:
>>>>> http://www.zeit.de/kultur/2016-08/jacob-appelbaum-rape-allegations-contradictions
>>>>>
>>>>> Inconsistencies have emerged in the allegations of rape and sexual
>>>>> assault against American Internet activist Jacob Appelbaum. Reporting
>>>>> by the weekly newspaper DIE ZEIT shows there is considerable doubt
>>>>> about the veracity of the claims.
>>>>>
>>>>> Tracking mentions...
>>>>> https://github.com/Enegnei/JacobAppelbaumLeavesTor
>>>>
>>>> It does look more and more like an SJW lynching, doesn't it?
>>>>
>>>> Being a sexually aggressive male seems dangerous in geek community.
>>>> Maybe that's why transgender whatever is becoming so popular. You get to
>>>> fuck everyone, and you have protected status ;)
>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>> I'm just a cranky old transexual farmer who loves to work with privacy
>>> systems. No one wants to fuck this nearly 51 year old woman so really,
>>> Take your bigotry and fuck the hell off.
>>
>> Sour grapes? ;)
>>
> 
> Sour apples ! Buckets of them that even the chickens wont eat.
> 
> .... but this is not about trans people. It's about the innocence or
> guilt of a high profile person in the community that many of us have
> come to love.

Maybe. Or maybe it's about a guy who got lynched, and why.

> Keep the bigotry out of it.

Just exactly how the fuck am I being bigoted?

> --- Marina
> 
> 
>> No bigotry, just observation. Look at which promiscuous players have
>> been targeted, and which are happily fucking away.
>>
>>> Shut up and code.
>>>
>>> --- Marina Brown
>>>
>>
> 
> 




From seanl at literati.org  Wed Aug 10 13:06:12 2016
From: seanl at literati.org (Sean Lynch)
Date: Wed, 10 Aug 2016 20:06:12 +0000
Subject: [WAR] Hillary Clinton, an MK Ultra drone,
 struggles with her programming
In-Reply-To: <20160810000550.GA6767@x220-a02>
References: <20160810000550.GA6767@x220-a02>
Message-ID: <CAHKdp-mqO6p=s_9AjKtZzda3xxPLmzuF6jHre_kO_rA6E0wmLw@mail.gmail.com>

On Tue, Aug 9, 2016 at 5:15 PM Zenaan Harkness <zen at freedbms.net> wrote:

> This would have been a much sexier title than "Hillary health problems"
> - "Hillary Clinton an MK Ultra drone, reaches untimely end to her
> programming."
>
> Pick or write your own heading and enjoy the show. Let's hope whoever
> gets to lead the USA war machine is sane enough to not push the World
> War 3 button against China, Russia or Iran.
>
>
> She also puts pressure on Ecuador re Julian Assange, see further below.
>
> ----
>
>
> ** Hillary Clinton blacks-out during speech, attention focused on her true
> health [Video] (
> http://theduran.com/hillary-clinton-dizzy-blackout-spell-during-speech-focuses-attention-on-her-true-health/
> )
>
>
I respect you and like your posts, Zen, but this one really feels like
grasping at straws, perhaps not on your part, but certainly on the part of
Christoforou and Durden (who has been predicting the end of the world for
his entire career AFAICT). I had a longer "blackout" than that when I lost
my train of thought giving closing arguments in mock trial when I was in
high school, to the extent that the judge had to say "You may continue, Mr.
Lynch."

There are plenty of legitimate criticisms of Clinton. This is not one of
them. This is literal FUD.
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From juan.g71 at gmail.com  Wed Aug 10 16:12:25 2016
From: juan.g71 at gmail.com (juan)
Date: Wed, 10 Aug 2016 20:12:25 -0300
Subject: Die Zeit interviews Appelbaum ioerror
In-Reply-To: <e52220f3-d022-5e8b-c0d7-443478fa0e5d@riseup.net>
References: <CAD2Ti2-NXpt9293VJV95k+7Z0eh68j8iEJRjURJZgvgYQy4fYg@mail.gmail.com>
 <e52220f3-d022-5e8b-c0d7-443478fa0e5d@riseup.net>
Message-ID: <57abb3c5.642cc80a.5d379.41c2@mx.google.com>

On Wed, 10 Aug 2016 14:02:36 -0600
Mirimir <mirimir at riseup.net> wrote:

> On 08/10/2016 01:24 PM, grarpamp wrote:
> > http://www.zeit.de/kultur/2016-08/jacob-appelbaum-rape-allegations-contradictions
> > 
> > Inconsistencies have emerged in the allegations of rape and sexual
> > assault against American Internet activist Jacob Appelbaum.
> > Reporting by the weekly newspaper DIE ZEIT shows there is
> > considerable doubt about the veracity of the claims.
> > 
> > Tracking mentions...
> > https://github.com/Enegnei/JacobAppelbaumLeavesTor
> 
> It does look more and more like an SJW lynching, doesn't it?

	That was pretty much self-evident, from the start. 

> 
> Being a sexually aggressive male seems dangerous in geek community.


	Nope. It is dangerous in government circles. Especially
	americunt government circles. 
 

> Maybe that's why transgender whatever is becoming so popular. You get
> to fuck everyone, and you have protected status ;)

	mwahahaha!

> 




From cecilia.tanaka at gmail.com  Wed Aug 10 16:13:35 2016
From: cecilia.tanaka at gmail.com (Cecilia Tanaka)
Date: Wed, 10 Aug 2016 20:13:35 -0300
Subject: Anarchist Bibliography, please? (was Re: Deconstructing an
 Institutional Slander...)
In-Reply-To: <20160809194322.GA24863@synfin.org>
References: <CAG2tMp7R2Lo0RN11qkC_iC9-4=2gHzpbcZEOoLtRFkCJ6Cf_KA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAG2tMp70VXbY+0GJs3HApMq71TcBympeLg3QUuDDdHwmC6Cqwg@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAG2tMp4=q0aFUjcS8Gei2J9FqYfQnsWg0E5Vh_OtGjVuJ-_V0Q@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAG2tMp55nML9+v0hnLVfe+OqPsCMUNiB66FR-VjmTn3pkGSTRw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAG2tMp7M3BpOUOcv6fkOYK=cYvYCWmg3nFrL8QSGBF0JPr5pjg@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAG2tMp5A5AxiYHR4JQ-ECFCy80nsa8-xxYw5gs5vMEfHtHKRgg@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAG2tMp4HdMnuXO7K5OvAie1+f1bsU5_iDg-nEcy=PTvJfV+XFA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAG2tMp6sd1r-FwLWd2SmQTQ-JJJpCPyU9hDKKKkew8symGGtJQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAG2tMp5CmWA9rzgwDpe9XDYbOcKooAq15PrDD1UtorcnPZo--Q@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAG2tMp5VUSFrJJXVXU35VBkY4trmH8K+7yECpnQAvfX7iRF3qQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <20160809194322.GA24863@synfin.org>
Message-ID: <CAG2tMp5GOAZvGPLqfEX_Owi1GddpyxC+vGpoEc3naCbdGShRKw@mail.gmail.com>

On Aug 9, 2016 4:43 PM, "John Newman" <jnn at synfin.org> wrote:
>
> Although, they do get a little too precious about veganism for my, err,
tastes... ;)

Being vegan is very fun for lighthearted trolls.  I can use it as excuse
for everything and always will be people thinking I am talking seriously.
;)

Currently, I am saying to some friends that hunting pokémons is not vegan
at all, hahaha!!  ;D

> Reading about the russian revolution recently was very depressing.
Personally I don't hold much hope for humanity..I figure the solution to
Fermis paradox is self-evident. We are going to fucking destroy ourselves.
Live it up while you can ;)

While the end doesn't arrive, I was reading a bit about Victoria Woodhull
[1] and cute soldering kits.  I really appreciated to learn a bit more
about her.  Great girl, wow!  :D

Yep, thinking about the future can be very depressing, but it's fun to
think about all the possibilities.  I really think technology and goodwill
can make a better world for everybody and  - wow! -  there are lots of
interesting, amazing people in the whole world.

Being alive is still fun, even when everything makes no sense.  Life is
very crazy in some moments.

Now, I was trying to mention a Hardy Har Har quote to make you laugh and
discovered the eternal pessimist hyena is more bitter and depressive in the
Brazilian version, haha!!  ;D

It's funnier, much more dramatic, but was strange to discover how much the
translations can adapt or modify the original talks.  Here the hyena always
complains "I know it won't work...  Oh Heavens!  Oh day!  Oh bad luck!"
instead "Oh me, oh my, oh dear"...   :P

This kind of unexpected fun thing keeps me alive and my mood, more or less,
good.  You know, life is a bitch and sucks, but, in some moments, it is
very expensive, dramatic and doesn't suck well.  ;)

In any case, there are lots of good people and wonderful music in the
world.  And children.  Children always are the hope for a better future!  <3

Tender kisses, warm hugs and lots of hope!  :*

-  c.

[1] <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Victoria_Woodhull>
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From mirimir at riseup.net  Wed Aug 10 19:25:43 2016
From: mirimir at riseup.net (Mirimir)
Date: Wed, 10 Aug 2016 20:25:43 -0600
Subject: Anarchist Bibliography, please? (was Re: Deconstructing an
 Institutional Slander...)
In-Reply-To: <7b8410ac-c780-1d5e-e074-672c9160bfaf@pilobilus.net>
References: <CAG2tMp7R2Lo0RN11qkC_iC9-4=2gHzpbcZEOoLtRFkCJ6Cf_KA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAG2tMp70VXbY+0GJs3HApMq71TcBympeLg3QUuDDdHwmC6Cqwg@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAG2tMp4=q0aFUjcS8Gei2J9FqYfQnsWg0E5Vh_OtGjVuJ-_V0Q@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAG2tMp55nML9+v0hnLVfe+OqPsCMUNiB66FR-VjmTn3pkGSTRw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAG2tMp7M3BpOUOcv6fkOYK=cYvYCWmg3nFrL8QSGBF0JPr5pjg@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAG2tMp5A5AxiYHR4JQ-ECFCy80nsa8-xxYw5gs5vMEfHtHKRgg@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAG2tMp4HdMnuXO7K5OvAie1+f1bsU5_iDg-nEcy=PTvJfV+XFA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAG2tMp6sd1r-FwLWd2SmQTQ-JJJpCPyU9hDKKKkew8symGGtJQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAG2tMp5CmWA9rzgwDpe9XDYbOcKooAq15PrDD1UtorcnPZo--Q@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAG2tMp5VUSFrJJXVXU35VBkY4trmH8K+7yECpnQAvfX7iRF3qQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <20160809194322.GA24863@synfin.org> <770311470819794@web20h.yandex.ru>
 <7b8410ac-c780-1d5e-e074-672c9160bfaf@pilobilus.net>
Message-ID: <42b6592a-f818-7821-9dfc-be6f54a768ba@riseup.net>

On 08/10/2016 07:53 PM, Steve Kinney wrote:
> 
> 
> On 08/10/2016 05:03 AM, Bastiani Fortress wrote:
> 
> 
>> 11:00 PM, August 9, 2016, John Newman <jnn at synfin.org>:
> 
>> If you dig punk/hardcore, the band Propagandhi makes some great 
>> shit.
> 
>> Rage against the machine, while we're at it :)
> 
>> Personally I don't hold much hope for humanity..I figure the
>> solution to Fermis paradox is self-evident.
> 
>> That is so depressing, but there's no denying it. In such
>> discussions with people, i always claim cooperation and empathy is
>> just as human nature as selfishness, as a pro-socialist argument,
>> but deep down inside, i can't say i have much hope either.
> 
> Fermi's Paradox?  Per its .com address:
> 
> "The Fermi Paradox is the apparent contradiction between the high
> probability extraterrestrial civilizations' existence and the lack of
> contact with such civilizations."

Maybe someone is killing them off ;)

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Killing_Star

> I don't mean to diss the "inevitable self destruction" model.  My own
> conclusion is that it's in progress here and now and can not be
> stopped by any human agency.  But while the end of civilization as we
> know it may be unthinkable for Civilized people and institutions,
> leading to the illusion that it means extinction, it is not
> unsurvivable.  Humans are the toughest weeds Nature ever made, capable
> of living on pack ice or dry rock desert for half the year armed only
> with Neolithic technology ... and loving it.  What will the first
> couple of Post Apocalyptic generations make out of the mangled
> landscapes and derelict infrastructure of Civilization?  A new kind of
> civilization, of course.
> 
> That thing that happened in Europe after the Black Death?  Homo Sap
> ain't seen nothing yet:  This time it's global, and post-scarcity is
> among the possible outcomes.
> 
> We don't see interstellar "civilizations" very often, because those
> who did not get over making everything bigger and more powerful for
> sake of bigness and power didn't make it.  For reals.  Some of those
> gamma bursts may be industrial accidents, or Bad Outcomes to MAD based
> defense strategies (an especially stupid kind of industrial accident).
> 
> If the absence of torrents of long range EM message traffic is
> surprising, that's only because we presume aliens talk with strings
> and tin cans "just like us."  If the absence of star drive signatures
> is surprising, it's more likely that our assumptions about what those
> signatures would be are faulty, than that there are no interstellar
> voyagers riding the starwinds.  If the absence of physical visitors is
> surprising, that just means a lot of people have not taken a hard
> critical look at UFO investigations:  Failure to invade and loot or
> otherwise dominate a technologically weaker species' cradle planet may
> be evidence of the presence of extraterrestrial intelligence, rather
> than its absence.
> 
> In my view practical anarchism is much more about developing
> adaptations for conditions after the fall of Civilization, than with
> making Civilization fall.  The latter task has already been done for
> us gratis [not], by the Powers and Principalities of the world.
> Building the best future possible for kids born in 2150 is gonna be a
> fuckton of work, and we better get as much done in advance as possible.
> 
> :o)
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 




From cecilia.tanaka at gmail.com  Wed Aug 10 17:17:19 2016
From: cecilia.tanaka at gmail.com (Cecilia Tanaka)
Date: Wed, 10 Aug 2016 21:17:19 -0300
Subject: Die Zeit interviews Appelbaum ioerror
In-Reply-To: <868e46d9-d32c-d112-ebfb-b8507f8c1077@gmail.com>
References: <CAD2Ti2-NXpt9293VJV95k+7Z0eh68j8iEJRjURJZgvgYQy4fYg@mail.gmail.com>
 <e52220f3-d022-5e8b-c0d7-443478fa0e5d@riseup.net>
 <868e46d9-d32c-d112-ebfb-b8507f8c1077@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAG2tMp6Vz-9Uz2HUjzEGTFXn3Zy8mx1FQdBsSsZquU8eSFMhPQ@mail.gmail.com>

On Aug 10, 2016 8:42 PM, "Marina Brown" <catskillmarina at gmail.com> wrote:
>
> On 08/10/2016 04:02 PM, Mirimir wrote:
> >
> > <SNIP>

Jake always considered himself a queer, bisexual man.  It was part of his
"problems" when he was publicly judged for his sexuality.  A lot of
moralist, hypocrite people judging his gender, his sexual preferences, not
his character, his real acts.

I've "lost" a "friend", because she said "Jake certainly raped these
people, once he was promiscuous enough to have sexual intercourses with
both genders".

So much prejudice, aff...  Very disgusting.  Judge a person for their
gender and for their sexuality is very stupid.
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From mirimir at riseup.net  Wed Aug 10 20:36:44 2016
From: mirimir at riseup.net (Mirimir)
Date: Wed, 10 Aug 2016 21:36:44 -0600
Subject: Die Zeit interviews Appelbaum ioerror
In-Reply-To: <b3a06e86-00cc-3fbd-03d4-ab35785a56f6@gmail.com>
References: <CAD2Ti2-NXpt9293VJV95k+7Z0eh68j8iEJRjURJZgvgYQy4fYg@mail.gmail.com>
 <e52220f3-d022-5e8b-c0d7-443478fa0e5d@riseup.net>
 <868e46d9-d32c-d112-ebfb-b8507f8c1077@gmail.com>
 <c817c9e0-1796-7345-1b8e-a884c2791613@riseup.net>
 <a7b02994-ab28-eaf2-34b0-8eea069b6961@gmail.com>
 <c70d519c-9ddc-e6ce-7c43-d471ae074d4d@riseup.net>
 <b3a06e86-00cc-3fbd-03d4-ab35785a56f6@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <e022560e-d811-6c1b-2e60-2c74f5480786@riseup.net>

On 08/10/2016 08:40 PM, Marina Brown wrote:
> On 08/10/2016 10:00 PM, Mirimir wrote:
>> On 08/10/2016 07:42 PM, Marina Brown wrote:
>>> On 08/10/2016 08:17 PM, Mirimir wrote:
>>>> On 08/10/2016 05:35 PM, Marina Brown wrote:
>>>>> On 08/10/2016 04:02 PM, Mirimir wrote:
>>>>>> On 08/10/2016 01:24 PM, grarpamp wrote:
>>>>>>> http://www.zeit.de/kultur/2016-08/jacob-appelbaum-rape-allegations-contradictions
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Inconsistencies have emerged in the allegations of rape and sexual
>>>>>>> assault against American Internet activist Jacob Appelbaum. Reporting
>>>>>>> by the weekly newspaper DIE ZEIT shows there is considerable doubt
>>>>>>> about the veracity of the claims.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Tracking mentions...
>>>>>>> https://github.com/Enegnei/JacobAppelbaumLeavesTor
>>>>>>
>>>>>> It does look more and more like an SJW lynching, doesn't it?
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Being a sexually aggressive male seems dangerous in geek community.
>>>>>> Maybe that's why transgender whatever is becoming so popular. You get to
>>>>>> fuck everyone, and you have protected status ;)
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> I'm just a cranky old transexual farmer who loves to work with privacy
>>>>> systems. No one wants to fuck this nearly 51 year old woman so really,
>>>>> Take your bigotry and fuck the hell off.
>>>>
>>>> Sour grapes? ;)
>>>>
>>>
>>> Sour apples ! Buckets of them that even the chickens wont eat.
>>>
>>> .... but this is not about trans people. It's about the innocence or
>>> guilt of a high profile person in the community that many of us have
>>> come to love.
>>
>> Maybe. Or maybe it's about a guy who got lynched, and why.
>>
>>> Keep the bigotry out of it.
>>
>> Just exactly how the fuck am I being bigoted?
>>
>>> --- Marina
>>>
>>>
>>>> No bigotry, just observation. Look at which promiscuous players have
>>>> been targeted, and which are happily fucking away.
>>>>
>>>>> Shut up and code.
>>>>>
>>>>> --- Marina Brown
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>>
>>
> 
> 
> Mirimir - trying to make it about being trans is why i went after you.

My hypothesis is that the lynch mob is making it about being male and
assertive (even if bisexual). Key members of the lynch mob are trans. Do
you deny that? And they seem to cut each other slack. Right?

> The reality of trans life is not immunity. It is generally
> discrimination and needing to watch your 6 for someone who is after you
> for being in the wrong place at the wrong time.

For sure, that's generally true for being trans. But I'm talking about
the lynch mob. Standards there seem very different.

> Wonder why i might want strong encryption and privacy ?

I don't wonder about that at all.




From catskillmarina at gmail.com  Wed Aug 10 18:42:24 2016
From: catskillmarina at gmail.com (Marina Brown)
Date: Wed, 10 Aug 2016 21:42:24 -0400
Subject: Die Zeit interviews Appelbaum ioerror
In-Reply-To: <c817c9e0-1796-7345-1b8e-a884c2791613@riseup.net>
References: <CAD2Ti2-NXpt9293VJV95k+7Z0eh68j8iEJRjURJZgvgYQy4fYg@mail.gmail.com>
 <e52220f3-d022-5e8b-c0d7-443478fa0e5d@riseup.net>
 <868e46d9-d32c-d112-ebfb-b8507f8c1077@gmail.com>
 <c817c9e0-1796-7345-1b8e-a884c2791613@riseup.net>
Message-ID: <a7b02994-ab28-eaf2-34b0-8eea069b6961@gmail.com>

On 08/10/2016 08:17 PM, Mirimir wrote:
> On 08/10/2016 05:35 PM, Marina Brown wrote:
>> On 08/10/2016 04:02 PM, Mirimir wrote:
>>> On 08/10/2016 01:24 PM, grarpamp wrote:
>>>> http://www.zeit.de/kultur/2016-08/jacob-appelbaum-rape-allegations-contradictions
>>>>
>>>> Inconsistencies have emerged in the allegations of rape and sexual
>>>> assault against American Internet activist Jacob Appelbaum. Reporting
>>>> by the weekly newspaper DIE ZEIT shows there is considerable doubt
>>>> about the veracity of the claims.
>>>>
>>>> Tracking mentions...
>>>> https://github.com/Enegnei/JacobAppelbaumLeavesTor
>>>
>>> It does look more and more like an SJW lynching, doesn't it?
>>>
>>> Being a sexually aggressive male seems dangerous in geek community.
>>> Maybe that's why transgender whatever is becoming so popular. You get to
>>> fuck everyone, and you have protected status ;)
>>>
>>>
>>
>> I'm just a cranky old transexual farmer who loves to work with privacy
>> systems. No one wants to fuck this nearly 51 year old woman so really,
>> Take your bigotry and fuck the hell off.
> 
> Sour grapes? ;)
> 

Sour apples ! Buckets of them that even the chickens wont eat.

.... but this is not about trans people. It's about the innocence or
guilt of a high profile person in the community that many of us have
come to love.

Keep the bigotry out of it.

--- Marina


> No bigotry, just observation. Look at which promiscuous players have
> been targeted, and which are happily fucking away.
> 
>> Shut up and code.
>>
>> --- Marina Brown
>>
> 


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From admin at pilobilus.net  Wed Aug 10 18:53:14 2016
From: admin at pilobilus.net (Steve Kinney)
Date: Wed, 10 Aug 2016 21:53:14 -0400
Subject: Anarchist Bibliography, please? (was Re: Deconstructing an
 Institutional Slander...)
In-Reply-To: <770311470819794@web20h.yandex.ru>
References: <CAG2tMp7R2Lo0RN11qkC_iC9-4=2gHzpbcZEOoLtRFkCJ6Cf_KA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAG2tMp70VXbY+0GJs3HApMq71TcBympeLg3QUuDDdHwmC6Cqwg@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAG2tMp4=q0aFUjcS8Gei2J9FqYfQnsWg0E5Vh_OtGjVuJ-_V0Q@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAG2tMp55nML9+v0hnLVfe+OqPsCMUNiB66FR-VjmTn3pkGSTRw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAG2tMp7M3BpOUOcv6fkOYK=cYvYCWmg3nFrL8QSGBF0JPr5pjg@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAG2tMp5A5AxiYHR4JQ-ECFCy80nsa8-xxYw5gs5vMEfHtHKRgg@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAG2tMp4HdMnuXO7K5OvAie1+f1bsU5_iDg-nEcy=PTvJfV+XFA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAG2tMp6sd1r-FwLWd2SmQTQ-JJJpCPyU9hDKKKkew8symGGtJQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAG2tMp5CmWA9rzgwDpe9XDYbOcKooAq15PrDD1UtorcnPZo--Q@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAG2tMp5VUSFrJJXVXU35VBkY4trmH8K+7yECpnQAvfX7iRF3qQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <20160809194322.GA24863@synfin.org> <770311470819794@web20h.yandex.ru>
Message-ID: <7b8410ac-c780-1d5e-e074-672c9160bfaf@pilobilus.net>

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On 08/10/2016 05:03 AM, Bastiani Fortress wrote:
> 
> 
> 11:00 PM, August 9, 2016, John Newman <jnn at synfin.org>:
> 
> If you dig punk/hardcore, the band Propagandhi makes some great 
> shit.
> 
> Rage against the machine, while we're at it :)
> 
> Personally I don't hold much hope for humanity..I figure the
> solution to Fermis paradox is self-evident.
> 
> That is so depressing, but there's no denying it. In such
> discussions with people, i always claim cooperation and empathy is
> just as human nature as selfishness, as a pro-socialist argument,
> but deep down inside, i can't say i have much hope either.

Fermi's Paradox?  Per its .com address:

"The Fermi Paradox is the apparent contradiction between the high
probability extraterrestrial civilizations' existence and the lack of
contact with such civilizations."

I don't mean to diss the "inevitable self destruction" model.  My own
conclusion is that it's in progress here and now and can not be
stopped by any human agency.  But while the end of civilization as we
know it may be unthinkable for Civilized people and institutions,
leading to the illusion that it means extinction, it is not
unsurvivable.  Humans are the toughest weeds Nature ever made, capable
of living on pack ice or dry rock desert for half the year armed only
with Neolithic technology ... and loving it.  What will the first
couple of Post Apocalyptic generations make out of the mangled
landscapes and derelict infrastructure of Civilization?  A new kind of
civilization, of course.

That thing that happened in Europe after the Black Death?  Homo Sap
ain't seen nothing yet:  This time it's global, and post-scarcity is
among the possible outcomes.

We don't see interstellar "civilizations" very often, because those
who did not get over making everything bigger and more powerful for
sake of bigness and power didn't make it.  For reals.  Some of those
gamma bursts may be industrial accidents, or Bad Outcomes to MAD based
defense strategies (an especially stupid kind of industrial accident).

If the absence of torrents of long range EM message traffic is
surprising, that's only because we presume aliens talk with strings
and tin cans "just like us."  If the absence of star drive signatures
is surprising, it's more likely that our assumptions about what those
signatures would be are faulty, than that there are no interstellar
voyagers riding the starwinds.  If the absence of physical visitors is
surprising, that just means a lot of people have not taken a hard
critical look at UFO investigations:  Failure to invade and loot or
otherwise dominate a technologically weaker species' cradle planet may
be evidence of the presence of extraterrestrial intelligence, rather
than its absence.

In my view practical anarchism is much more about developing
adaptations for conditions after the fall of Civilization, than with
making Civilization fall.  The latter task has already been done for
us gratis [not], by the Powers and Principalities of the world.
Building the best future possible for kids born in 2150 is gonna be a
fuckton of work, and we better get as much done in advance as possible.

:o)




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From cecilia.tanaka at gmail.com  Wed Aug 10 18:30:04 2016
From: cecilia.tanaka at gmail.com (Cecilia Tanaka)
Date: Wed, 10 Aug 2016 22:30:04 -0300
Subject: Die Zeit interviews Appelbaum ioerror
In-Reply-To: <e940d926-76b0-8704-d846-26b6b731f82c@riseup.net>
References: <CAD2Ti2-NXpt9293VJV95k+7Z0eh68j8iEJRjURJZgvgYQy4fYg@mail.gmail.com>
 <e52220f3-d022-5e8b-c0d7-443478fa0e5d@riseup.net>
 <868e46d9-d32c-d112-ebfb-b8507f8c1077@gmail.com>
 <CAG2tMp6Vz-9Uz2HUjzEGTFXn3Zy8mx1FQdBsSsZquU8eSFMhPQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <e940d926-76b0-8704-d846-26b6b731f82c@riseup.net>
Message-ID: <CAG2tMp6+21fW5R+MZG7fpT9mvPe_mtGrtioYfiRbabksKb1ohg@mail.gmail.com>

On Aug 10, 2016 9:52 PM, "Mirimir" <mirimir at riseup.net> wrote:
>
> On 08/10/2016 06:17 PM, Cecilia Tanaka wrote:
> >
> > So much prejudice, aff...  Very disgusting.  Judge a person for their
gender and for their sexuality is very stupid.
>
> Just to be clear, I'm not judging anyone's sexuality. I'm pointing out
that the community has a double standard. That people like Jake who act
male (even if they're gay or bisexual) get lynched. But people who are just
as promiscuous, but act female or androgynous, get a pass. They get to be
victims.

I got your point, my love, but I do try to refuse this kind of social
condescension, all these labels.  I am not weaker for being a woman.  I am
not a victim.  And yes, I think it's very disgusting when a person uses
their gender to get benefits.  And yes again, it was very depressing,
really unfair and nocive to see how some people managed their labels
against a "white North American man", being he really guilty or not.  :((

This kind of fake situation creates more prejudice, and more stupid labels,
and more and more social judgements.  The real victims of rape, of all
kinds of brutality and harassment, will lose their credibility, because of
stupid fucking liars and it's sad, unfair, wrong and very, very hurtful for
real victims!  :((

In the other side, I already told you I have transgender friends and make
volunteer work in LGBTQ groups, my love.  There are much hate and
intolerance against them.  It's really hard.

There is so much prejudice against them that it's really hard to discover
the limits between true prejudice or not.  Even working with them, in some
moments, involuntarily, I make horrible gaffes.  :(

Once, I was explaining that a female trans friend was born a man and was
waiting for her hormonal treatment and another trans friend said it was
very offensive for everybody, because my friend always was a woman, since
her birth.  She was not born a man.  I was talking about chromosomes,
genetics only, but I hurt a friend involuntarily.  :(((

Do you understand how hard is having sensibility enough to avoid hurting
fragile people, my love?  So, be careful, please.  Love you!  :*
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From catskillmarina at gmail.com  Wed Aug 10 19:40:22 2016
From: catskillmarina at gmail.com (Marina Brown)
Date: Wed, 10 Aug 2016 22:40:22 -0400
Subject: Die Zeit interviews Appelbaum ioerror
In-Reply-To: <c70d519c-9ddc-e6ce-7c43-d471ae074d4d@riseup.net>
References: <CAD2Ti2-NXpt9293VJV95k+7Z0eh68j8iEJRjURJZgvgYQy4fYg@mail.gmail.com>
 <e52220f3-d022-5e8b-c0d7-443478fa0e5d@riseup.net>
 <868e46d9-d32c-d112-ebfb-b8507f8c1077@gmail.com>
 <c817c9e0-1796-7345-1b8e-a884c2791613@riseup.net>
 <a7b02994-ab28-eaf2-34b0-8eea069b6961@gmail.com>
 <c70d519c-9ddc-e6ce-7c43-d471ae074d4d@riseup.net>
Message-ID: <b3a06e86-00cc-3fbd-03d4-ab35785a56f6@gmail.com>

On 08/10/2016 10:00 PM, Mirimir wrote:
> On 08/10/2016 07:42 PM, Marina Brown wrote:
>> On 08/10/2016 08:17 PM, Mirimir wrote:
>>> On 08/10/2016 05:35 PM, Marina Brown wrote:
>>>> On 08/10/2016 04:02 PM, Mirimir wrote:
>>>>> On 08/10/2016 01:24 PM, grarpamp wrote:
>>>>>> http://www.zeit.de/kultur/2016-08/jacob-appelbaum-rape-allegations-contradictions
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Inconsistencies have emerged in the allegations of rape and sexual
>>>>>> assault against American Internet activist Jacob Appelbaum. Reporting
>>>>>> by the weekly newspaper DIE ZEIT shows there is considerable doubt
>>>>>> about the veracity of the claims.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Tracking mentions...
>>>>>> https://github.com/Enegnei/JacobAppelbaumLeavesTor
>>>>>
>>>>> It does look more and more like an SJW lynching, doesn't it?
>>>>>
>>>>> Being a sexually aggressive male seems dangerous in geek community.
>>>>> Maybe that's why transgender whatever is becoming so popular. You get to
>>>>> fuck everyone, and you have protected status ;)
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> I'm just a cranky old transexual farmer who loves to work with privacy
>>>> systems. No one wants to fuck this nearly 51 year old woman so really,
>>>> Take your bigotry and fuck the hell off.
>>>
>>> Sour grapes? ;)
>>>
>>
>> Sour apples ! Buckets of them that even the chickens wont eat.
>>
>> .... but this is not about trans people. It's about the innocence or
>> guilt of a high profile person in the community that many of us have
>> come to love.
> 
> Maybe. Or maybe it's about a guy who got lynched, and why.
> 
>> Keep the bigotry out of it.
> 
> Just exactly how the fuck am I being bigoted?
> 
>> --- Marina
>>
>>
>>> No bigotry, just observation. Look at which promiscuous players have
>>> been targeted, and which are happily fucking away.
>>>
>>>> Shut up and code.
>>>>
>>>> --- Marina Brown
>>>>
>>>
>>
>>
> 


Mirimir - trying to make it about being trans is why i went after you.

The reality of trans life is not immunity. It is generally
discrimination and needing to watch your 6 for someone who is after you
for being in the wrong place at the wrong time.

Wonder why i might want strong encryption and privacy ?

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From grarpamp at gmail.com  Wed Aug 10 20:45:17 2016
From: grarpamp at gmail.com (grarpamp)
Date: Wed, 10 Aug 2016 23:45:17 -0400
Subject: Assange outs the DNC e-mail "leaker"
In-Reply-To: <51df3755-acf1-940a-b09a-962dac8ac4ea@pilobilus.net>
References: <51df3755-acf1-940a-b09a-962dac8ac4ea@pilobilus.net>
Message-ID: <CAD2Ti284GiNct1k74OWG5XyQ7VSaqYdubrm9=1Np=P5wvYqqjw@mail.gmail.com>

On 8/10/16, Steve Kinney <admin at pilobilus.net> wrote:
> Julian Assange has, in a deniable and snarky way, told the world that
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Kp7FkLBRpKg

An October Surprise ... now that's a prediction I'd wager on ;)

> https://twitter.com/wikileaks/status/763041804652539904
>
> As a "legal" variant on AP, crowdfunding a more than matching bounty
> could be a useful exercise.




From mirimir at riseup.net  Wed Aug 10 23:00:04 2016
From: mirimir at riseup.net (Mirimir)
Date: Thu, 11 Aug 2016 00:00:04 -0600
Subject: Die Zeit interviews Appelbaum ioerror
In-Reply-To: <20160811045046.GF3319@x220-a02>
References: <CAD2Ti2-NXpt9293VJV95k+7Z0eh68j8iEJRjURJZgvgYQy4fYg@mail.gmail.com>
 <e52220f3-d022-5e8b-c0d7-443478fa0e5d@riseup.net>
 <868e46d9-d32c-d112-ebfb-b8507f8c1077@gmail.com>
 <c817c9e0-1796-7345-1b8e-a884c2791613@riseup.net>
 <a7b02994-ab28-eaf2-34b0-8eea069b6961@gmail.com>
 <c70d519c-9ddc-e6ce-7c43-d471ae074d4d@riseup.net>
 <b3a06e86-00cc-3fbd-03d4-ab35785a56f6@gmail.com>
 <e022560e-d811-6c1b-2e60-2c74f5480786@riseup.net>
 <20160811045046.GF3319@x220-a02>
Message-ID: <677aa06c-661f-283e-f44c-0985697b74a5@riseup.net>

On 08/10/2016 10:50 PM, Zenaan Harkness wrote:
> On Wed, Aug 10, 2016 at 09:36:44PM -0600, Mirimir wrote:
>> On 08/10/2016 08:40 PM, Marina Brown wrote:
>>> On 08/10/2016 10:00 PM, Mirimir wrote:
>>>> On 08/10/2016 07:42 PM, Marina Brown wrote:
>>>>> On 08/10/2016 08:17 PM, Mirimir wrote:
>>>>>> On 08/10/2016 05:35 PM, Marina Brown wrote:
>>>>>>> On 08/10/2016 04:02 PM, Mirimir wrote:
>>>>>>>> On 08/10/2016 01:24 PM, grarpamp wrote:
>>>>>>>>> http://www.zeit.de/kultur/2016-08/jacob-appelbaum-rape-allegations-contradictions
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Inconsistencies have emerged in the allegations of rape and sexual
>>>>>>>>> assault against American Internet activist Jacob Appelbaum. Reporting
>>>>>>>>> by the weekly newspaper DIE ZEIT shows there is considerable doubt
>>>>>>>>> about the veracity of the claims.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Tracking mentions...
>>>>>>>>> https://github.com/Enegnei/JacobAppelbaumLeavesTor
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> It does look more and more like an SJW lynching, doesn't it?
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Being a sexually aggressive male seems dangerous in geek community.
>>>>>>>> Maybe that's why transgender whatever is becoming so popular. You get to
> 
> Mirimir, I thought you were quite clear where you added "whatever" in
> your "transgender whatever" phrase ... as in "transgender, queer, bi,
> blah blah blah whatever...".

Thanks. And maybe it wasn't very diplomatic :(

> At least that's how I read it, and as you point out - an observation,
> with no judgement or bigotry that I could discern.
> 
> 
>>>>>>>> fuck everyone, and you have protected status ;)

I am a little jealous ;)

>>>>>>> I'm just a cranky old transexual farmer who loves to work with privacy
>>>>>>> systems. No one wants to fuck this nearly 51 year old woman so really,
>>>>>>> Take your bigotry and fuck the hell off.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Sour grapes? ;)
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Sour apples ! Buckets of them that even the chickens wont eat.
>>>>>
>>>>> .... but this is not about trans people. It's about the innocence or
>>>>> guilt of a high profile person in the community that many of us have
>>>>> come to love.
>>>>
>>>> Maybe. Or maybe it's about a guy who got lynched, and why.
>>>>
>>>>> Keep the bigotry out of it.
>>>>
>>>> Just exactly how the fuck am I being bigoted?
>>>>
>>>>> --- Marina
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>> No bigotry, just observation. Look at which promiscuous players have
>>>>>> been targeted, and which are happily fucking away.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Shut up and code.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> --- Marina Brown
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Mirimir - trying to make it about being trans is why i went after you.
>>
>> My hypothesis is that the lynch mob is making it about being male and
>> assertive (even if bisexual). Key members of the lynch mob are trans. Do
>> you deny that? And they seem to cut each other slack. Right?
> 
> Everyone on the same page, just a dropped checksum I think...

;)

>>> The reality of trans life is not immunity. It is generally
>>> discrimination and needing to watch your 6 for someone who is after you
>>> for being in the wrong place at the wrong time.
>>
>> For sure, that's generally true for being trans. But I'm talking about
>> the lynch mob. Standards there seem very different.
>>
>>> Wonder why i might want strong encryption and privacy ?
>>
>> I don't wonder about that at all.
> 
> Now frankly Mirimir, even if you had expressed a personal sexual
> preference (for say, some personal definition of conservatism or
> whatever), that too MUST be entirely acceptable.

I'm just an observer, so that's all irrelevant.

Maybe someone ought to graph all of the principals in this clusterfuck
in some sort of multidimensional sexual politics space. I bet on some
obvious clustering ;)

> Just to be clear.
> 
> Peace all,
> Zenaan
> 




From jdb10987 at yahoo.com  Wed Aug 10 22:12:52 2016
From: jdb10987 at yahoo.com (jim bell)
Date: Thu, 11 Aug 2016 05:12:52 +0000 (UTC)
Subject: Assange outs the DNC e-mail "leaker"
In-Reply-To: <51df3755-acf1-940a-b09a-962dac8ac4ea@pilobilus.net>
References: <51df3755-acf1-940a-b09a-962dac8ac4ea@pilobilus.net>
Message-ID: <307441586.15211747.1470892372288.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com>



 From: Steve Kinney <admin at pilobilus.net>
>Julian Assange has, in a deniable and snarky way, told the world that
>DNC staff member Seth Rich was the source of the DNC e-mail leak.  And
>put a $20k bounty on the head of whoever murdered him.

I'm skeptical of this conclusion.  Obviously, Wikileaks has the provision to allow people to leak information anonymously.  That doesn't mean that any givenleaker was anonymous to them, but it's still a possibility.   
And even if anonymous, it would be a good guess that the leaker was an insider.The sudden and suspicious death of an insider would at least seem to point to a possible identity.  Julian Assange knows that there will be much speculation;Wikileaks has a powerful motivation to keep the leaks coming, and it knows that people will be paying attention to how it deals with such possibilities.  It mighteven be suspected that to fail to offer such a reward, implies that Wikileaks didn't care about (possible) leakers.  What should he do?  If it were me,I'd offer such a reward, even if I knew for certain the victim wasn't the leaker.
Offering such a reward even where they know it isn't the leaker would also havethe side-benefit of diverting attention from the actual leaker, whoever he mighthappen to be.            Jim Bell

>https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Kp7FkLBRpKg

>https://twitter.com/wikileaks/status/763041804652539904

>As a "legal" variant on AP, crowdfunding a more than matching bounty
>could be a useful exercise.  There would of course have to be a time
>limit, and an alternate beneficiary in the event that the reward goes
>unclaimed.  Wikileaks itself seems like a good candidate for the
>alternative beneficiary.
Yes!   An excellent suggestion.


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From oshwm at openmailbox.org  Wed Aug 10 22:34:32 2016
From: oshwm at openmailbox.org (oshwm)
Date: Thu, 11 Aug 2016 06:34:32 +0100
Subject: Support the Libre Tea Computer Card
In-Reply-To: <20160811045906.GG3319@x220-a02>
References: <20160811045906.GG3319@x220-a02>
Message-ID: <71494B4E-6788-4976-BC0A-5AB441E262F3@openmailbox.org>

Were the Allwinner GPL violations ever sorted? 

Would make strange bedfellows for fsf if not :)


On 11 August 2016 05:59:06 BST, Zenaan Harkness <zen at freedbms.net> wrote:
>OK, this looks functional enough to be useful to at least some folks
>around here, yet small enough to be doable, and a useful step towards
>RYF/libre computing hardware.
>
>I hope they are successful.
>Zenaan
>
>
>----- Forwarded message from "Donald Robertson, III, FSF"
><donald at fsf.org> -----
>Date: Wed, 10 Aug 2016 20:49:59 -0400
>From: "Donald Robertson, III, FSF" <donald at fsf.org>
>Reply-To: "Donald Robertson, III, FSF" <donald at fsf.org>
>Subject: Support the Libre Tea Computer Card
>
>**Read online:
><https://www.fsf.org/blogs/licensing/support-the-libre-tea-computer-card-a-candidate-for-respects-your-freedom-certification>.**
>
>
>Dear Mr Zenaan Harkness,
>
>The Earth-friendly EOMA68 Computing Devices project is a crowdfunding
>campaign run on Crowd Supply to produce a line of hardware products
>that are ecologically responsible and built based on royalty-free,
>unencumbered hardware standards. They write:
>
>> "Now imagine if you owned a computing device that you could easily
>> fix yourself and inexpensively upgrade as needed. So, instead of
>> having to shell out for a completely new computer, you could simply
>> spend around US$50 to upgrade — which, by the way, you could easily
>> do in SECONDS, by pushing a button on the side of your device and
>> just popping in a new computer card. Doesn’t that sound like the way
>> it should be?"
>
>[This project][1] certainly sounds appealing, but only if the computer
>hardware is designed and configured to run software that does as much
>as possible to respect your freedom and ensure your control over your
>device. Fortunately, one option you have when backing this project is
>to purchase a Libre Tea Computer Card. After working closely with the
>developers and reviewing a sample test board, we are confident that
>their plans are to create a device that can achieve our [Respects Your
>Freedom (RYF)][2] certification.
>
>[1]: https://www.crowdsupply.com/eoma68/micro-desktop
>[2]: https://www.fsf.org/ryf
>
>The project is being developed by Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton of
>[Rhombus-Tech][3] and is sponsored by Christopher Waid of
>[ThinkPenguin][4], a company that sells [multiple RYF-certified
>hardware products][2].  It is exciting to see passionate free software
>advocates in our community working with OEMs to produce a computer
>hardware product capable of achieving RYF certification. We hope that
>this is the first of many computing systems they are able to design
>and build that respect your freedom.
>
>[3]: http://rhombus-tech.net
>[4]: https://www.thinkpenguin.com/
>
>The Libre Tea Computer Card is built with an Allwinner A20 dual core
>processor configured to use the main CPU for graphics; it has 2 GB of
>RAM and 8 GB of NAND Flash; and it will come pre-installed with
>[Parabola GNU/Linux-libre][5], an [FSF-endorsed fully-free operating
>system][6].
>
>[5]: https://www.parabola.nu/
>[6]: https://www.gnu.org/distros/free-distros
>
>We encourage you to [back the Libre Tea Computer Card][1]. We'll have
>to do another evaluation once it is actually produced to be sure it
>meets our certification standards, but we have high hopes. Their
>funding deadline is August 26th, so don't delay!
>
>Donald Robertson    
>Copyright & Licensing Associate
>-- 
>* Follow us at <https://status.fsf.org/fsf>. 
>* Subscribe to our RSS feeds at <https://fsf.org/blogs/RSS>.
>* Join us as an associate member at <https://www.fsf.org/jf>.
>
>Sent from the Free Software Foundation,
>
>51 Franklin St, Fifth Floor
>Boston, Massachusetts 02110-1335
>UNITED STATES
>
>
>You can unsubscribe from this mailing list by visiting 
>
>https://my.fsf.org/civicrm/mailing/unsubscribe?reset=1&jid=144946&qid=20563409&h=01d4bfb3e6e84598.
>
>To stop all email from the Free Software Foundation, including
>Defective by Design,
>and the Free Software Supporter newsletter, visit
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>----- End forwarded message -----
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From rayzer at riseup.net  Thu Aug 11 09:01:06 2016
From: rayzer at riseup.net (Rayzer)
Date: Thu, 11 Aug 2016 09:01:06 -0700
Subject: Assange outs the DNC e-mail "leaker"
In-Reply-To: <20160811044150.GE3319@x220-a02>
References: <51df3755-acf1-940a-b09a-962dac8ac4ea@pilobilus.net>
 <20160811044150.GE3319@x220-a02>
Message-ID: <37a16bf7-fe20-2011-e232-f0a6f53e0d7c@riseup.net>



On 08/10/2016 09:41 PM, Zenaan Harkness wrote:
> On Wed, Aug 10, 2016 at 04:05:49PM -0400, Steve Kinney wrote:
>> Julian Assange has, in a deniable and snarky way, told the world that
>> DNC staff member Seth Rich was the source of the DNC e-mail leak.  And
>> put a $20k bounty on the head of whoever murdered him.
> 
> Wow. Simply wow.
> 
> The headline should have been "DNC Kills Their Own" on this one...
> 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hale_Boggs#Speculation.2C_suspicions.2C_and_theories




From rayzer at riseup.net  Thu Aug 11 10:25:09 2016
From: rayzer at riseup.net (Rayzer)
Date: Thu, 11 Aug 2016 10:25:09 -0700
Subject: Die Zeit interviews Appelbaum ioerror
In-Reply-To: <CAD2Ti2-NXpt9293VJV95k+7Z0eh68j8iEJRjURJZgvgYQy4fYg@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAD2Ti2-NXpt9293VJV95k+7Z0eh68j8iEJRjURJZgvgYQy4fYg@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <8441d4ef-9221-1e0e-3ba0-77c4c3a80bec@riseup.net>



On 08/10/2016 12:24 PM, grarpamp wrote:
> http://www.zeit.de/kultur/2016-08/jacob-appelbaum-rape-allegations-contradictions
> 
> Inconsistencies have emerged in the allegations of rape and sexual
> assault against American Internet activist Jacob Appelbaum. Reporting
> by the weekly newspaper DIE ZEIT shows there is considerable doubt
> about the veracity of the claims.
> 
> Tracking mentions...
> https://github.com/Enegnei/JacobAppelbaumLeavesTor
> 

As a series of tweets to an involved party:

The lesson to be learned here, for better or worse. You cannot be
intimately involved with co-workers without risk

Most (of the few) office environments I've worked at ABSOLUTELY FOBADE
romantic co-mingling between workers.

It's seen as a potential morale issue (when the breakup happens) so
there IS vested interest. IF you're supervisory

...being romantically involved with ANY worker is absolutely treacherous
under US labor law. So they got to screw @ioerror

It's seen as a potential morale issue (when the breakup happens) so
there IS vested interest. IF you're supervisory

...being romantically involved with ANY worker is absolutely treacherous
under US labor law. So they got to screw @ioerror

 ...and not in the fun sort of way.

Ex. I was working as truck driver who had to also be in an office
environment out of the truck. One of the office girls...

was apparently having a breakup w/ BF and was in tears in the hallway. I
gave her a (consensual) hug just as the VP walked by

 I got called on the carpet for it. "No overt displays of affection".
Pretty sick, but the bosses worry about lawsuits

In @ioerror's case they tried to coerce those folks over it & it worked
to get him gone along w/ that Anarchist Hacker ethic


Rr




From cecilia.tanaka at gmail.com  Thu Aug 11 08:51:31 2016
From: cecilia.tanaka at gmail.com (Cecilia Tanaka)
Date: Thu, 11 Aug 2016 12:51:31 -0300
Subject: Anarchist Bibliography, please? (was Re: Deconstructing an
 Institutional Slander...)
In-Reply-To: <770311470819794@web20h.yandex.ru>
References: <CAG2tMp7R2Lo0RN11qkC_iC9-4=2gHzpbcZEOoLtRFkCJ6Cf_KA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAG2tMp70VXbY+0GJs3HApMq71TcBympeLg3QUuDDdHwmC6Cqwg@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAG2tMp4=q0aFUjcS8Gei2J9FqYfQnsWg0E5Vh_OtGjVuJ-_V0Q@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAG2tMp55nML9+v0hnLVfe+OqPsCMUNiB66FR-VjmTn3pkGSTRw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAG2tMp7M3BpOUOcv6fkOYK=cYvYCWmg3nFrL8QSGBF0JPr5pjg@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAG2tMp5A5AxiYHR4JQ-ECFCy80nsa8-xxYw5gs5vMEfHtHKRgg@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAG2tMp4HdMnuXO7K5OvAie1+f1bsU5_iDg-nEcy=PTvJfV+XFA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAG2tMp6sd1r-FwLWd2SmQTQ-JJJpCPyU9hDKKKkew8symGGtJQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAG2tMp5CmWA9rzgwDpe9XDYbOcKooAq15PrDD1UtorcnPZo--Q@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAG2tMp5VUSFrJJXVXU35VBkY4trmH8K+7yECpnQAvfX7iRF3qQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <20160809194322.GA24863@synfin.org> <770311470819794@web20h.yandex.ru>
Message-ID: <CAG2tMp55YGd4LfmV_SJJmS09Yd4NitYVgW6FcijK53F_vN5gww@mail.gmail.com>

Completely OT, but it has Hardy Har Har sense of humor...  :P

"Being bad-tempered and pessimistic helps you to earn more, live longer and
enjoy a healthier marriage."

<
http://www.bbc.com/future/story/20160809-why-it-pays-to-be-grumpy-and-bad-tempered
>
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From mirimir at riseup.net  Thu Aug 11 13:37:21 2016
From: mirimir at riseup.net (Mirimir)
Date: Thu, 11 Aug 2016 14:37:21 -0600
Subject: Die Zeit interviews Appelbaum ioerror
In-Reply-To: <57acdac4.c233ed0a.d4d7d.ce6b@mx.google.com>
References: <CAD2Ti2-NXpt9293VJV95k+7Z0eh68j8iEJRjURJZgvgYQy4fYg@mail.gmail.com>
 <e52220f3-d022-5e8b-c0d7-443478fa0e5d@riseup.net>
 <57abb3c5.642cc80a.5d379.41c2@mx.google.com>
 <CAD2Ti28YtxttJNYCnoqJZo6PshMhFGJTXXep8TEfHGmqguQLmA@mail.gmail.com>
 <57acdac4.c233ed0a.d4d7d.ce6b@mx.google.com>
Message-ID: <b0454ce3-2aef-f336-bd19-ed86b25e143b@riseup.net>

On 08/11/2016 02:11 PM, juan wrote:
> On Thu, 11 Aug 2016 15:13:36 -0400
> grarpamp <grarpamp at gmail.com> wrote:
> 
>> On 8/10/16, juan <juan.g71 at gmail.com> wrote:
>>> On Wed, 10 Aug 2016 14:02:36 -0600
>>> Mirimir <mirimir at riseup.net> wrote:
>>
>>>> It does look more and more like an SJW lynching, doesn't it?
>>>
>>> 	That was pretty much self-evident, from the start.
>>
>> Similar to assassins, warriors are hardly ever some completely
>> independant self actors...
> 
> 	True. The ruling faction of the tor mafia, a US military
> 	contractor, settled some score with one of their 'ex'
> 	employees/accomplices. 
> 
> 	And they did that by means of a feminist anti-sex lynching,
> 	which of course suits the military/american 'culture' of the tor
> 	corporation. 
> 
> 	I didn't mean it was an 'ordinary' SWJ lynching only motivated
> 	by 'social' 'justice'. If that's what Mirimir thinks then I
> 	don't agree with him.

I agree with you about Tor mafia :(

I also believe that SWJ lynching generally involves "social justice"
only in bullshit Orwellian ways. Reminiscent of Red Guards :(

>> most are owned by their masters,
>> assembled into bands and armies, tasked with orders, and
>> compensated well, some possibly approaching doing it free for
>> the mere subby joys of ass kissing...
>>
>>>> Being a sexually aggressive male seems dangerous in geek community.
>>>
>>> 	Nope. It is dangerous in government circles. Especially
>>> 	americunt government circles.
>>
>> ... as such, to limit the possible reasons... to a relatively
>> sizeable group of people getting in a bit too deep with their sex
>> games, twittermania, and jealousy trips (a possibility some have
>> mentioned as self-evident)... seems a bit narrow and foolish...
> 
> 
> 	True that.
> 	
> 
>>
>>>> to fuck everyone, and you have protected status ;)
>>
>> ... so look for the evidence of larger answers, protect ya
>> neck while doing so, and duck and cover if you're holding some,
>> because these days, the fuckbullets seem to be flying and even
>> protected status of asylum hardly feels as safe as freedom...

Well, Jake probably thought himself safe, being bisexual and all ;) But
he didn't self-flagellate sufficiently, and got called out.




From zen at freedbms.net  Wed Aug 10 21:41:50 2016
From: zen at freedbms.net (Zenaan Harkness)
Date: Thu, 11 Aug 2016 14:41:50 +1000
Subject: Assange outs the DNC e-mail "leaker"
In-Reply-To: <51df3755-acf1-940a-b09a-962dac8ac4ea@pilobilus.net>
References: <51df3755-acf1-940a-b09a-962dac8ac4ea@pilobilus.net>
Message-ID: <20160811044150.GE3319@x220-a02>

On Wed, Aug 10, 2016 at 04:05:49PM -0400, Steve Kinney wrote:
> Julian Assange has, in a deniable and snarky way, told the world that
> DNC staff member Seth Rich was the source of the DNC e-mail leak.  And
> put a $20k bounty on the head of whoever murdered him.

Wow. Simply wow.

The headline should have been "DNC Kills Their Own" on this one...




From zen at freedbms.net  Wed Aug 10 21:50:46 2016
From: zen at freedbms.net (Zenaan Harkness)
Date: Thu, 11 Aug 2016 14:50:46 +1000
Subject: Die Zeit interviews Appelbaum ioerror
In-Reply-To: <e022560e-d811-6c1b-2e60-2c74f5480786@riseup.net>
References: <CAD2Ti2-NXpt9293VJV95k+7Z0eh68j8iEJRjURJZgvgYQy4fYg@mail.gmail.com>
 <e52220f3-d022-5e8b-c0d7-443478fa0e5d@riseup.net>
 <868e46d9-d32c-d112-ebfb-b8507f8c1077@gmail.com>
 <c817c9e0-1796-7345-1b8e-a884c2791613@riseup.net>
 <a7b02994-ab28-eaf2-34b0-8eea069b6961@gmail.com>
 <c70d519c-9ddc-e6ce-7c43-d471ae074d4d@riseup.net>
 <b3a06e86-00cc-3fbd-03d4-ab35785a56f6@gmail.com>
 <e022560e-d811-6c1b-2e60-2c74f5480786@riseup.net>
Message-ID: <20160811045046.GF3319@x220-a02>

On Wed, Aug 10, 2016 at 09:36:44PM -0600, Mirimir wrote:
> On 08/10/2016 08:40 PM, Marina Brown wrote:
> > On 08/10/2016 10:00 PM, Mirimir wrote:
> >> On 08/10/2016 07:42 PM, Marina Brown wrote:
> >>> On 08/10/2016 08:17 PM, Mirimir wrote:
> >>>> On 08/10/2016 05:35 PM, Marina Brown wrote:
> >>>>> On 08/10/2016 04:02 PM, Mirimir wrote:
> >>>>>> On 08/10/2016 01:24 PM, grarpamp wrote:
> >>>>>>> http://www.zeit.de/kultur/2016-08/jacob-appelbaum-rape-allegations-contradictions
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> Inconsistencies have emerged in the allegations of rape and sexual
> >>>>>>> assault against American Internet activist Jacob Appelbaum. Reporting
> >>>>>>> by the weekly newspaper DIE ZEIT shows there is considerable doubt
> >>>>>>> about the veracity of the claims.
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> Tracking mentions...
> >>>>>>> https://github.com/Enegnei/JacobAppelbaumLeavesTor
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> It does look more and more like an SJW lynching, doesn't it?
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> Being a sexually aggressive male seems dangerous in geek community.
> >>>>>> Maybe that's why transgender whatever is becoming so popular. You get to

Mirimir, I thought you were quite clear where you added "whatever" in
your "transgender whatever" phrase ... as in "transgender, queer, bi,
blah blah blah whatever...".

At least that's how I read it, and as you point out - an observation,
with no judgement or bigotry that I could discern.


> >>>>>> fuck everyone, and you have protected status ;)
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>> I'm just a cranky old transexual farmer who loves to work with privacy
> >>>>> systems. No one wants to fuck this nearly 51 year old woman so really,
> >>>>> Take your bigotry and fuck the hell off.
> >>>>
> >>>> Sour grapes? ;)
> >>>>
> >>>
> >>> Sour apples ! Buckets of them that even the chickens wont eat.
> >>>
> >>> .... but this is not about trans people. It's about the innocence or
> >>> guilt of a high profile person in the community that many of us have
> >>> come to love.
> >>
> >> Maybe. Or maybe it's about a guy who got lynched, and why.
> >>
> >>> Keep the bigotry out of it.
> >>
> >> Just exactly how the fuck am I being bigoted?
> >>
> >>> --- Marina
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>> No bigotry, just observation. Look at which promiscuous players have
> >>>> been targeted, and which are happily fucking away.
> >>>>
> >>>>> Shut up and code.
> >>>>>
> >>>>> --- Marina Brown
> >>>>>
> >>>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>
> > 
> > 
> > Mirimir - trying to make it about being trans is why i went after you.
> 
> My hypothesis is that the lynch mob is making it about being male and
> assertive (even if bisexual). Key members of the lynch mob are trans. Do
> you deny that? And they seem to cut each other slack. Right?

Everyone on the same page, just a dropped checksum I think...


> > The reality of trans life is not immunity. It is generally
> > discrimination and needing to watch your 6 for someone who is after you
> > for being in the wrong place at the wrong time.
> 
> For sure, that's generally true for being trans. But I'm talking about
> the lynch mob. Standards there seem very different.
> 
> > Wonder why i might want strong encryption and privacy ?
> 
> I don't wonder about that at all.

Now frankly Mirimir, even if you had expressed a personal sexual
preference (for say, some personal definition of conservatism or
whatever), that too MUST be entirely acceptable.

Just to be clear.

Peace all,
Zenaan




From zen at freedbms.net  Wed Aug 10 21:59:06 2016
From: zen at freedbms.net (Zenaan Harkness)
Date: Thu, 11 Aug 2016 14:59:06 +1000
Subject: Support the Libre Tea Computer Card
Message-ID: <20160811045906.GG3319@x220-a02>

OK, this looks functional enough to be useful to at least some folks
around here, yet small enough to be doable, and a useful step towards
RYF/libre computing hardware.

I hope they are successful.
Zenaan


----- Forwarded message from "Donald Robertson, III, FSF" <donald at fsf.org> -----
Date: Wed, 10 Aug 2016 20:49:59 -0400
From: "Donald Robertson, III, FSF" <donald at fsf.org>
Reply-To: "Donald Robertson, III, FSF" <donald at fsf.org>
Subject: Support the Libre Tea Computer Card

**Read online: <https://www.fsf.org/blogs/licensing/support-the-libre-tea-computer-card-a-candidate-for-respects-your-freedom-certification>.**


Dear Mr Zenaan Harkness,

The Earth-friendly EOMA68 Computing Devices project is a crowdfunding
campaign run on Crowd Supply to produce a line of hardware products
that are ecologically responsible and built based on royalty-free,
unencumbered hardware standards. They write:

> "Now imagine if you owned a computing device that you could easily
> fix yourself and inexpensively upgrade as needed. So, instead of
> having to shell out for a completely new computer, you could simply
> spend around US$50 to upgrade — which, by the way, you could easily
> do in SECONDS, by pushing a button on the side of your device and
> just popping in a new computer card. Doesn’t that sound like the way
> it should be?"

[This project][1] certainly sounds appealing, but only if the computer
hardware is designed and configured to run software that does as much
as possible to respect your freedom and ensure your control over your
device. Fortunately, one option you have when backing this project is
to purchase a Libre Tea Computer Card. After working closely with the
developers and reviewing a sample test board, we are confident that
their plans are to create a device that can achieve our [Respects Your
Freedom (RYF)][2] certification.

[1]: https://www.crowdsupply.com/eoma68/micro-desktop
[2]: https://www.fsf.org/ryf

The project is being developed by Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton of
[Rhombus-Tech][3] and is sponsored by Christopher Waid of
[ThinkPenguin][4], a company that sells [multiple RYF-certified
hardware products][2].  It is exciting to see passionate free software
advocates in our community working with OEMs to produce a computer
hardware product capable of achieving RYF certification. We hope that
this is the first of many computing systems they are able to design
and build that respect your freedom.

[3]: http://rhombus-tech.net
[4]: https://www.thinkpenguin.com/

The Libre Tea Computer Card is built with an Allwinner A20 dual core
processor configured to use the main CPU for graphics; it has 2 GB of
RAM and 8 GB of NAND Flash; and it will come pre-installed with
[Parabola GNU/Linux-libre][5], an [FSF-endorsed fully-free operating
system][6].

[5]: https://www.parabola.nu/
[6]: https://www.gnu.org/distros/free-distros

We encourage you to [back the Libre Tea Computer Card][1]. We'll have
to do another evaluation once it is actually produced to be sure it
meets our certification standards, but we have high hopes. Their
funding deadline is August 26th, so don't delay!

Donald Robertson    
Copyright & Licensing Associate
-- 
* Follow us at <https://status.fsf.org/fsf>. 
* Subscribe to our RSS feeds at <https://fsf.org/blogs/RSS>.
* Join us as an associate member at <https://www.fsf.org/jf>.

Sent from the Free Software Foundation,

51 Franklin St, Fifth Floor
Boston, Massachusetts 02110-1335
UNITED STATES


You can unsubscribe from this mailing list by visiting 

https://my.fsf.org/civicrm/mailing/unsubscribe?reset=1&jid=144946&qid=20563409&h=01d4bfb3e6e84598.

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and the Free Software Supporter newsletter, visit

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----- End forwarded message -----




From grarpamp at gmail.com  Thu Aug 11 12:13:36 2016
From: grarpamp at gmail.com (grarpamp)
Date: Thu, 11 Aug 2016 15:13:36 -0400
Subject: Die Zeit interviews Appelbaum ioerror
In-Reply-To: <57abb3c5.642cc80a.5d379.41c2@mx.google.com>
References: <CAD2Ti2-NXpt9293VJV95k+7Z0eh68j8iEJRjURJZgvgYQy4fYg@mail.gmail.com>
 <e52220f3-d022-5e8b-c0d7-443478fa0e5d@riseup.net>
 <57abb3c5.642cc80a.5d379.41c2@mx.google.com>
Message-ID: <CAD2Ti28YtxttJNYCnoqJZo6PshMhFGJTXXep8TEfHGmqguQLmA@mail.gmail.com>

On 8/10/16, juan <juan.g71 at gmail.com> wrote:
> On Wed, 10 Aug 2016 14:02:36 -0600
> Mirimir <mirimir at riseup.net> wrote:

>> It does look more and more like an SJW lynching, doesn't it?
>
> 	That was pretty much self-evident, from the start.

Similar to assassins, warriors are hardly ever some completely
independant self actors... most are owned by their masters,
assembled into bands and armies, tasked with orders, and
compensated well, some possibly approaching doing it free for
the mere subby joys of ass kissing...

>> Being a sexually aggressive male seems dangerous in geek community.
>
> 	Nope. It is dangerous in government circles. Especially
> 	americunt government circles.

... as such, to limit the possible reasons... to a relatively sizeable group
of people getting in a bit too deep with their sex games, twittermania,
and jealousy trips (a possibility some have mentioned as self-evident)...
seems a bit narrow and foolish...

>> to fuck everyone, and you have protected status ;)

... so look for the evidence of larger answers, protect ya
neck while doing so, and duck and cover if you're holding some,
because these days, the fuckbullets seem to be flying and even
protected status of asylum hardly feels as safe as freedom...




From grarpamp at gmail.com  Thu Aug 11 12:23:48 2016
From: grarpamp at gmail.com (grarpamp)
Date: Thu, 11 Aug 2016 15:23:48 -0400
Subject: Die Zeit interviews Appelbaum ioerror
In-Reply-To: <8441d4ef-9221-1e0e-3ba0-77c4c3a80bec@riseup.net>
References: <CAD2Ti2-NXpt9293VJV95k+7Z0eh68j8iEJRjURJZgvgYQy4fYg@mail.gmail.com>
 <8441d4ef-9221-1e0e-3ba0-77c4c3a80bec@riseup.net>
Message-ID: <CAD2Ti2-qi7nfxketWosFpsrf4nTk-mV1RWA_bKf3dphoLk7kyA@mail.gmail.com>

On 8/11/16, Rayzer <rayzer at riseup.net> wrote:
> to get ... that Anarchist Hacker ethic [gone]

The Hierarchy of Order is known not to tolerate such ethics,
and doesn't fight a clean fight. Get dirty.




From grarpamp at gmail.com  Thu Aug 11 12:36:30 2016
From: grarpamp at gmail.com (grarpamp)
Date: Thu, 11 Aug 2016 15:36:30 -0400
Subject: France and DE Scheme Global Fight Against Messaging Crypto
Message-ID: <CAD2Ti2-Or2_4N6jmpuQOMoPqWDk0-gTPHZs=6=_dFtKaPx76fA@mail.gmail.com>

http://www.reuters.com/article/us-france-internet-encryption-idUSKCN10M1KB
https://yro.slashdot.org/story/16/08/11/1619254/france-says-fight-against-messaging-encryption-needs-worldwide-initiative
https://www.reddit.com/search?q=france+messaging+encryption&sort=new&t=week

Messaging encryption, widely used by Islamist extremists to plan
attacks, needs to be fought at international level, French Interior
Minister Bernard Cazeneuve said on Thursday, and he wants Germany to
help him promote a global initiative.

He meets his German counterpart, Thomas de Maiziere, on Aug. 23 in
Paris and they will discuss a European initiative with a view to
launching an international action plan, Cazeneuve said.




From zen at freedbms.net  Wed Aug 10 23:42:54 2016
From: zen at freedbms.net (Zenaan Harkness)
Date: Thu, 11 Aug 2016 16:42:54 +1000
Subject: Support the Libre Tea Computer Card
In-Reply-To: <71494B4E-6788-4976-BC0A-5AB441E262F3@openmailbox.org>
References: <20160811045906.GG3319@x220-a02>
 <71494B4E-6788-4976-BC0A-5AB441E262F3@openmailbox.org>
Message-ID: <20160811064254.GI3319@x220-a02>

On Thu, Aug 11, 2016 at 06:34:32AM +0100, oshwm wrote:
> Were the Allwinner GPL violations ever sorted? 

Apparently still in process.


> Would make strange bedfellows for fsf if not :)

Seems there's a FAQ on the fundraiser site - it has a MALI gpu, which
they disable, relying on the CPU - so won't be great in default config
for 3D or graphically complex games... but the dual ARM 1.2GHz speaks to
that as well too I'd say.

The founder/ author of this project speaks very strongly to his
principles wrt all things libre.




From juan.g71 at gmail.com  Thu Aug 11 13:11:09 2016
From: juan.g71 at gmail.com (juan)
Date: Thu, 11 Aug 2016 17:11:09 -0300
Subject: Die Zeit interviews Appelbaum ioerror
In-Reply-To: <CAD2Ti28YtxttJNYCnoqJZo6PshMhFGJTXXep8TEfHGmqguQLmA@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAD2Ti2-NXpt9293VJV95k+7Z0eh68j8iEJRjURJZgvgYQy4fYg@mail.gmail.com>
 <e52220f3-d022-5e8b-c0d7-443478fa0e5d@riseup.net>
 <57abb3c5.642cc80a.5d379.41c2@mx.google.com>
 <CAD2Ti28YtxttJNYCnoqJZo6PshMhFGJTXXep8TEfHGmqguQLmA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <57acdac4.c233ed0a.d4d7d.ce6b@mx.google.com>

On Thu, 11 Aug 2016 15:13:36 -0400
grarpamp <grarpamp at gmail.com> wrote:

> On 8/10/16, juan <juan.g71 at gmail.com> wrote:
> > On Wed, 10 Aug 2016 14:02:36 -0600
> > Mirimir <mirimir at riseup.net> wrote:
> 
> >> It does look more and more like an SJW lynching, doesn't it?
> >
> > 	That was pretty much self-evident, from the start.
> 
> Similar to assassins, warriors are hardly ever some completely
> independant self actors...

	True. The ruling faction of the tor mafia, a US military
	contractor, settled some score with one of their 'ex'
	employees/accomplices. 

	And they did that by means of a feminist anti-sex lynching,
	which of course suits the military/american 'culture' of the tor
	corporation. 

	I didn't mean it was an 'ordinary' SWJ lynching only motivated
	by 'social' 'justice'. If that's what Mirimir thinks then I
	don't agree with him.



> most are owned by their masters,
> assembled into bands and armies, tasked with orders, and
> compensated well, some possibly approaching doing it free for
> the mere subby joys of ass kissing...
> 
> >> Being a sexually aggressive male seems dangerous in geek community.
> >
> > 	Nope. It is dangerous in government circles. Especially
> > 	americunt government circles.
> 
> ... as such, to limit the possible reasons... to a relatively
> sizeable group of people getting in a bit too deep with their sex
> games, twittermania, and jealousy trips (a possibility some have
> mentioned as self-evident)... seems a bit narrow and foolish...


	True that.
	

> 
> >> to fuck everyone, and you have protected status ;)
> 
> ... so look for the evidence of larger answers, protect ya
> neck while doing so, and duck and cover if you're holding some,
> because these days, the fuckbullets seem to be flying and even
> protected status of asylum hardly feels as safe as freedom...




From zen at freedbms.net  Thu Aug 11 01:20:22 2016
From: zen at freedbms.net (Zenaan Harkness)
Date: Thu, 11 Aug 2016 18:20:22 +1000
Subject: Assange outs the DNC e-mail "leaker"
In-Reply-To: <20160811044150.GE3319@x220-a02>
References: <51df3755-acf1-940a-b09a-962dac8ac4ea@pilobilus.net>
 <20160811044150.GE3319@x220-a02>
Message-ID: <20160811082022.GA11223@x220-a02>

On Thu, Aug 11, 2016 at 02:41:50PM +1000, Zenaan Harkness wrote:
> On Wed, Aug 10, 2016 at 04:05:49PM -0400, Steve Kinney wrote:
> > Julian Assange has, in a deniable and snarky way, told the world that
> > DNC staff member Seth Rich was the source of the DNC e-mail leak.  And
> > put a $20k bounty on the head of whoever murdered him.
> 
> Wow. Simply wow.
> 
> The headline should have been "DNC Kills Their Own" on this one...

And now they call for killing Julian Assange.

So much killing. And war. War, war, and more killing.

That's the "democratic" way these days I guess, or at least, it appears
to be the way of the North American DNC/ Democratic National Committee...

The crazies from the basement have definitely overrun the house.



----- Forwarded message from The Duran <newsletter at theduran.com> -----
Date: Thu, 11 Aug 2016 01:02:15 +0000
From: The Duran <newsletter at theduran.com>
To: russia-insider.com at freedbms.net
Reply-To: The Duran <newsletter at theduran.com>

** Hillary Clinton strategist says “kill” Julian Assange, because “a
dead man can’t leak stuff” [Video]
(http://theduran.com/kill-julian-assange-says-cnn-host-and-democratic-strategist-because-a-dead-man-cant-leak-stuff/)
------------------------------------------------------------
By Alex Christoforou on Aug 10, 2016 10:18 pm
NEW YORK, NY - FEBRUARY 26: TV personality Alex Trebek (R) and hosts of
'The Five' (L-R) Bob Beckel and Eric Bolling attend FOX News' "The Five"
at FOX Studios on February 26, 2014 in New York City. (Photo by Noam
Galai/Getty Images)

Democratic strategist, CNN Host, former Fox News Host, and Hillary
Clinton supporter Bob Beckel…

has figured out how to deal with the Julian Assange thorn, that is in
Clinton’s side…

Hillary Clinton strategist Bob Beckel called for WikiLeaks editor Julian
Assange to be assassinated. #DNCLeak
(https://twitter.com/hashtag/DNCLeak?src=hash)
pic.twitter.com/9L2ixl24Er (https://t.co/9L2ixl24Er)

— WikiLeaks (@wikileaks) August 10, 2016
(https://twitter.com/wikileaks/status/763380671796678656)

Julian Assange’s latest revelation that has Bob Beckel calling for his
assassination…the DNC email hack (that the Clinton machine cleverly
diverted into a Putin-Trump imaginary bromance) was most likely leaked,
not by Russians, but by 27 year old Democratic staffer Seth Rich
(http://theduran.com/julian-assange-hints-murdered-democratic-staffer-seth-rich-source-dnc-email-leak-not-russia-video/)
, who was mysteriously (and conveniently) murdered right after the DNC
leak.

Here is what Bob Beckel said…

“The way to deal with this is pretty simple. We’ve got special-op
forces.

I mean — A dead man can’t leak stuff.

This guy’s a traitor, a treasonous — and — and he — he has broken every
law of the United States, The guy ought to be — and I am not for the
death penalty, so if I am not for the death penalty, their is only one
way to do it…

Illegally shoot the son of a bitch.”

What if a Trump surrogate or supporter had said this, or something
remotely like this?

Hillary Clinton strategist Bob Beckel called for WikiLeaks editor Julian
Assange to be assassinated. #DNCLeak
(https://twitter.com/hashtag/DNCLeak?src=hash)
pic.twitter.com/9L2ixl24Er (https://t.co/9L2ixl24Er)

— WikiLeaks (@wikileaks) August 10, 2016
(https://twitter.com/wikileaks/status/763380671796678656)

Meanwhile, Clinton murdering Assange may not be too far fetch, as bodies
in and around the Hillary campaign are starting to pile up as Zerohedge
documents
(http://www.zerohedge.com/news/2016-08-10/wikileaks-assange-hints-murdered-dnc-staffer-was-email-leaker-offers-20k-reward-info)
…”Five in just under six weeks – four convenient deaths plus one
suicide…”

1) Shawn Lucas
(http://www.thegatewaypundit.com/2016/08/breaking-lead-attorney-dnc-fraud-case-found-dead-1-week-serving-dnc-papers/)
, Sanders supporter who served papers to DNC on the Fraud Case (DOD
August 2, 2016)

2) Victor Thorn, Clinton author
(http://www.thepoliticalinsider.com/breaking-prominent-anti-hillary-clinton-researcher-found-dead-54/)
(and Holocaust denier, probably the least credible on this list) shot
himself in an apparent suicide. Conspiracy theorists at Mystery Writers
of America said some guys will do anything to sell books. (DOD August,
2016)

3) Seth Conrad Rich
(http://www.thegatewaypundit.com/2016/08/breaking-lead-attorney-dnc-fraud-case-found-dead-1-week-serving-dnc-papers/)
, Democratic staffer, aged 27, apparently on his way to speak to the FBI
about a case possibly involving the Clintons. The D.C. murder was not a
robbery. (DOD July 8, 2016)

4) John Ashe, UN official who allegedly crushed his own throat while
lifting weights, because he watched too many James Bond films and wanted
to try the move where the bad guy tries to…oh, never mind. “He was
scheduled to testify against the Clintons and the Democrat Party
(http://www.thegatewaypundit.com/2016/08/breaking-lead-attorney-dnc-fraud-case-found-dead-1-week-serving-dnc-papers/)
.” (DOD June 22, 2016)

5) Mike Flynn, the Big Government Editor for Breitbart News. Mike
Flynn’s final article was published the day he died, “Clinton Cash:
Bill, Hillary Created Their Own Chinese Foundation in 2014
(http://www.breitbart.com/big-government/2016/06/23/clinton-created-chinese-foundation/)
.” (DOD June 23, 2016)

20160809_dncdead_0

The post Hillary Clinton strategist says “kill” Julian Assange, because
“a dead man can’t leak stuff” [Video]
(http://theduran.com/kill-julian-assange-says-cnn-host-and-democratic-strategist-because-a-dead-man-cant-leak-stuff/)
appeared first on The Duran (http://theduran.com) .




From jdb10987 at yahoo.com  Thu Aug 11 11:35:32 2016
From: jdb10987 at yahoo.com (jim bell)
Date: Thu, 11 Aug 2016 18:35:32 +0000 (UTC)
Subject: Anarchist Bibliography, please? (was Re: Deconstructing an
 Institutional Slander...)
In-Reply-To: <20160811154619.GA2957@x220-a02>
References: <CAG2tMp55nML9+v0hnLVfe+OqPsCMUNiB66FR-VjmTn3pkGSTRw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAG2tMp7M3BpOUOcv6fkOYK=cYvYCWmg3nFrL8QSGBF0JPr5pjg@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAG2tMp5A5AxiYHR4JQ-ECFCy80nsa8-xxYw5gs5vMEfHtHKRgg@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAG2tMp4HdMnuXO7K5OvAie1+f1bsU5_iDg-nEcy=PTvJfV+XFA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAG2tMp6sd1r-FwLWd2SmQTQ-JJJpCPyU9hDKKKkew8symGGtJQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAG2tMp5CmWA9rzgwDpe9XDYbOcKooAq15PrDD1UtorcnPZo--Q@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAG2tMp5VUSFrJJXVXU35VBkY4trmH8K+7yECpnQAvfX7iRF3qQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <20160809194322.GA24863@synfin.org> <770311470819794@web20h.yandex.ru>
 <7b8410ac-c780-1d5e-e074-672c9160bfaf@pilobilus.net>
 <20160811154619.GA2957@x220-a02>
Message-ID: <1901740634.15491731.1470940533090.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com>



 From: Zenaan Harkness <zen at freedbms.net>
On Wed, Aug 10, 2016 at 09:53:14PM -0400, Steve Kinney wrote:
> On 08/10/2016 05:03 AM, Bastiani Fortress wrote:
> > 11:00 PM, August 9, 2016, John Newman <jnn at synfin.org>:

>> We don't see interstellar "civilizations" very often, because those
>> who did not get over making everything bigger and more powerful for
>> sake of bigness and power didn't make it.  For reals.  Some of those
>> gamma bursts may be industrial accidents, or Bad Outcomes to MAD based
>> defense strategies (an especially stupid kind of industrial accident).

>Is there a name for the planet that was the asteroid belt before it was
>an asteroid belt?
Phaeton.  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phaeton_(hypothetical_planet) 
My understanding is that those rocks never made up a planet.  This may havehad something to do with Jupiter's comparative closeness.             Jim Bell


  
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From bbrewer at littledystopia.net  Thu Aug 11 18:08:06 2016
From: bbrewer at littledystopia.net (bbrewer)
Date: Thu, 11 Aug 2016 21:08:06 -0400
Subject: tor promises to be good*
Message-ID: <90B57D40-9B68-4559-BA34-922BFA6041AD@littledystopia.net>

No worries, JUAN, they promise no backdoors… (I’m with you on your design stance, btw)

https://blog.torproject.org/blog/tor-social-contract

"The Tor Social Contract
Posted August 9th, 2016 by alison  in 
	• ethics
 
	• human rights
 
	• social contract

At The Tor Project, we make tools that help promote and protect the essential human rights of people everywhere. We have a set of guiding principles that make that possible, but for a long time, those principles were more or less unspoken. In order to ensure that project members build a Tor that reflects the commitment to our ideals, we've taken a cue from our friends at Debian and written the Tor Social Contract -- the set of principles that show who we are and why we make Tor.
Our social contract is a set of behaviors and goals: not just the promised results we want for our community, but the ways we seek to achieve them. We want to grow Tor by supporting and advancing these guidelines in the time we are working on Tor, while taking care not to undermine them in the rest of our time.
The principles can also be used to help recognize when people's actions or intents are hurting Tor. Some of these principles are established norms; things we've been doing every day for a long time; while others are more aspirational -- but all of them are values we want to live in public, and we hope they will make our future choices easier and more open. This social contract is one of several documents that define our community standards, so if you're looking for things that aren't here (e.g. something that might be in a code of conduct) bear in mind that they might exist, in a different document.
Social goals can be complex. If there is ever tension in the application of the following principles, we will always strive to place highest priority on the safety and freedom of any who would use the fruits of our endeavors. The social contract can also help us work through such tensions -- for example, there are times when we might have a need to use tools that are not completely open (contradicting point 2) but opening them would undermine our users' safety (contradicting point 6). Using such a tool should be weighed against how much it's needed to make our technologies usable (point 1). And if we do use such a tool, we must be honest about its capabilities and limits (point 5). 
Tor is not just software, but a labor of love produced by an international community of people devoted to human rights. This social contract is a promise from our internal community to the rest of the world, affirming our commitment to our beliefs. We are excited to present it to you.
1. We advance human rights by creating and deploying usable anonymity and privacy technologies.
We believe that privacy, the free exchange of ideas, and access to information are essential to free societies. Through our community standards and the code we write, we provide tools that help all people protect and advance these rights.
2. Open and transparent research and tools are key to our success.
We are committed to transparency; therefore, everything we release is open and our development happens in the open. Whenever feasible, we will continue to make our source code, binaries, and claims about them open to independent verification. In the extremely rare cases where open development would undermine the security of our users, we will be especially vigilant in our peer review by project members.
3. Our tools are free to access, use, adapt, and distribute.
The more diverse our users, the less is implied about any person by simply being a Tor user. This diversity is a fundamental goal and we aim to create tools and services anyone can access and use. Someone's ability to pay for these tools or services should not be a determining factor in their ability to access and use them. Moreover, we do not restrict access to our tools unless access is superceded by our intent to make users more secure. 
We expect the code and research we publish will be reviewed and improved by many different people, and that is only possible if everyone has the ability to use, copy, modify, and redistribute this information. We also design, build, and deploy our tools without collecting identifiable information about our users.
4. We make Tor and related technologies ubiquitous through advocacy and education.
We are not just people who build software, but ambassadors for online freedom. We want everybody in the world to understand that their human rights -- particularly their rights to free speech, freedom to access information, and privacy -- can be preserved when they use the Internet. We teach people how and why to use Tor and we are always working to make our tools both more secure and more usable, which is why we use our own tools and listen to user feedback. Our vision of a more free society will not be accomplished simply behind a computer screen, and so in addition to writing good code, we also prioritize community outreach and advocacy.
5. We are honest about the capabilities and limits of Tor and related technologies.
We never intentionally mislead our users nor misrepresent the capabilities of the tools, nor the potential risks associated with using them. Every user should be free to make an informed decision about whether they should use a particular tool and how they should use it. We are responsible for accurately reporting the state of our software, and we work diligently to keep our community informed through our various communication channels.
6. We will never intentionally harm our users.
We take seriously the trust our users have placed in us. Not only will we always do our best to write good code, but it is imperative that we resist any pressure from adversaries who want to harm our users. We will never implement front doors or back doors into our projects. In our commitment to transparency, we are honest when we make errors, and we communicate with our users about our plans to improve.
	• alison's blog"




From juan.g71 at gmail.com  Thu Aug 11 19:07:21 2016
From: juan.g71 at gmail.com (juan)
Date: Thu, 11 Aug 2016 23:07:21 -0300
Subject: Someone leaked Microsoft Keys
In-Reply-To: <468154759.15060316.1470957568136.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com>
References: <468154759.15060316.1470957568136.JavaMail.yahoo.ref@mail.yahoo.com>
 <468154759.15060316.1470957568136.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <57ad2e43.ed35c80a.67869.0eac@mx.google.com>

On Thu, 11 Aug 2016 23:19:28 +0000 (UTC)
jim bell <jdb10987 at yahoo.com> wrote:

> http://www.ibtimes.co.uk/microsoft-accidentally-leaks-golden-keys-that-unlock-every-windows-device-1575542?utm_source=yahoo&utm_medium=referral&utm_campaign=rss&utm_content=/rss/yahoous/news&yptr=yahoo
>
 
> then this is a perfect real world example
> about why your idea of backdooring cryptosystems with a 'secure
> golden key' is very bad!," 


	Is it? Doesn't this mean that now people can bypass that
	'secure' boot shit and actually own their hardware? 





the duo added."
> 
> [end of partial quote]




From jdb10987 at yahoo.com  Thu Aug 11 16:19:28 2016
From: jdb10987 at yahoo.com (jim bell)
Date: Thu, 11 Aug 2016 23:19:28 +0000 (UTC)
Subject: Someone leaked Microsoft Keys
References: <468154759.15060316.1470957568136.JavaMail.yahoo.ref@mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <468154759.15060316.1470957568136.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com>

http://www.ibtimes.co.uk/microsoft-accidentally-leaks-golden-keys-that-unlock-every-windows-device-1575542?utm_source=yahoo&utm_medium=referral&utm_campaign=rss&utm_content=/rss/yahoous/news&yptr=yahoo


[partial quote]
"Microsoft accidentally leaked the golden keys to the Windows kingdom. The keys allow hackers to unlock every Windows device, including tablets, phones and other devices that are protected by Secure Boot. The most alarming part about the leak is that it is believed that it may likely be impossible for Microsoft to fully recover from the leak."
"The leakwas uncovered by two security researchers MY123 and Slipstream, who revealed in a (Star Wars-style) blog that the security flaw allowed malicious entities with admin rights or physical access to a device can bypass Secure Boot to not only run other operating systems (OS) like Linux or Android on the device but also install and execute rootkits and bootkits, at the most deeply penetrated level of the device."
"The researchers wrote: "A backdoor, which MS put in to secure boot because they decided to not let the user turn it off in certain devices, allows for secure boot to be disabled everywhere! You can see the irony. Also the irony in that MS themselves provided us several nice 'golden keys' (as the FBI would say) for us to use for that purpose."The leak serves as a reminder of the potential dangers in security when tech firms are pressured by governments and law enforcement agencies into producing special keys that can be used by investigators to unlock devices, in the course of criminal investigations."
"About the FBI: are you reading this? If you are, then this is a perfect real world example about why your idea of backdooring cryptosystems with a 'secure golden key' is very bad!," the duo added."

[end of partial quote]
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From grarpamp at gmail.com  Thu Aug 11 21:48:16 2016
From: grarpamp at gmail.com (grarpamp)
Date: Fri, 12 Aug 2016 00:48:16 -0400
Subject: Die Zeit interviews Appelbaum ioerror
In-Reply-To: <CAD2Ti2-NXpt9293VJV95k+7Z0eh68j8iEJRjURJZgvgYQy4fYg@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAD2Ti2-NXpt9293VJV95k+7Z0eh68j8iEJRjURJZgvgYQy4fYg@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAD2Ti28MN38-N2qty68dRmjGQ2yH3dVqSS0Uur+GvjusFT_QeA@mail.gmail.com>

> Tracking mentions...
> https://github.com/Enegnei/JacobAppelbaumLeavesTor

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9F7qKjkV07k

World Crypto Network
Streamed live on Jun 10, 2016
Janine Römer has been working on the unfolding story of Jacob
Appelbaum's departure from the Tor Project amid rumours and
accusations of wrong doing.
See her investigation and coverage here:
https://github.com/Enegnei/JacobAppelbaumLeavesTor
Follow Janine on Twitter: https://twitter.com/J9Roem
Donate Bitcoins:
1PytMk24QZB147N9oW1jA6AhAoSsyqLhkB




From grarpamp at gmail.com  Thu Aug 11 22:13:26 2016
From: grarpamp at gmail.com (grarpamp)
Date: Fri, 12 Aug 2016 01:13:26 -0400
Subject: Someone leaked Microsoft Keys
In-Reply-To: <468154759.15060316.1470957568136.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com>
References: <468154759.15060316.1470957568136.JavaMail.yahoo.ref@mail.yahoo.com>
 <468154759.15060316.1470957568136.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <CAD2Ti2_RW9c4g04iA-Ldcf9k01T6-LPt1gNR4mVSVR7spEZdug@mail.gmail.com>

Note that
1) MS has a history of golden key loving... NSA_KEY.
2) Some motherboard bios let you install your own secure boot
keys and sign your own bootloaders, so MS is not relavant there.
3) No one has yet leaked / found Intel's / AMD's golden keys.


                |                                             |
                | a  w r i t e u p  r e l e a s e  b y  r o l |
                |      ________  ___  ________  ________      |
                |     <_  __   \/   \/        \/ ____   \     |
                |      T  T<___/\___/\_  /\  _/\ \__j  _/     |
                |      |  |     T   T T /  \ T__\____  T      |
                |      |  |     |   | | \  / |T T   T  |      |
                |      l__j_____l___j_l__><__j| |   |  |      |
                |       T _______ T | ___j    | l___j  |      |
                |       | T   __T |_j l_______l________j      |
                |       | |   l_| |__ _______j                |
                |       | l_____j | T T                       |
           ____ '     __l_________j_| |___                    `  ________
           T  T  ___ / ____  TT  __Tj |  T     _/\_   ____/\_   / ____  T
           |  | /   \\ \__j  ||  l____j  |   _/    \_/  \    \_ \ \__j  |
           |  |_\___/_\____  ||    l__|  l___T  /\  T___/ /\  T__\____  |
           |  | TT  T T   T  ||   _   |  ___j| /  \ |  T /  \ |T T   T  |
           |  l ||  | l___j  ||   |   |  l___| \  / |  | \  / || l___j  |
           l____jl__l________jl___l___j______j__><__j__j__><__jl________j
            r   i   n   g     o   f     l   i   g   h   t   n   i   n   g

irc.rol.im #rtchurch :: <a
href="https://rol.im/chat/rtchurch">https://rol.im/chat/rtchurch</a>

Specific Secure Boot policies, when provisioned, allow for testsigning to be
enabled, on any BCD object, including {bootmgr}. This also removes the NT loader
options blacklist (AFAIK). (MS16-094 / CVE-2016-3287, and MS16-100 /
CVE-2016-3320)

Found by my123 (<a
href="https://twitter.com/never_released">@never_released</a>) and
slipstream (<a href="https://twitter.com/TheWack0lian">@TheWack0lian</a>)
Writeup by slipstream (<a
href="https://twitter.com/TheWack0lian">@TheWack0lian</a>)

First up, "Secure Boot policies". What are they exactly?

As you know, secureboot is a part of the uefi firmware, when enabled, it only
lets stuff run that's signed by a cert in db, and whose hash is not in dbx
(revoked).

As you probably also know, there are devices where secure boot can NOT be
disabled by the user (Windows RT, HoloLens, Windows Phone, maybe Surface Hub,
and maybe some IoTCore devices if such things actually exist -- not talking
about the boards themselves which are not locked down at all by default, but end
devices sold that may have secureboot locked on).

But in some cases, the "shape" of secure boot needs to change a bit. For example
in development, engineering, refurbishment, running flightsigned stuff (as of
win10) etc. How to do that, with devices where secure boot is locked on?

Enter the Secure Boot policy.

It's a file in a binary format that's embedded within an ASN.1 blob, that is
signed. It's loaded by bootmgr REALLY early into the windows boot process. It
must be signed by a certificate in db. It gets loaded from a UEFI variable in
the secureboot namespace (therefore, it can only be touched by boot services).
There's a couple .efis signed by MS that can provision such a policy, that is,
set the UEFI variable with its contents being the policy.

What can policies do, you ask?

They have two different types of rules. BCD rules, which override settings
in the on-disk BCD, and registry rules, which contain configuration for the
policy itself, plus configuration for other parts of boot services, etc. For
example, one registry element was introduced in Windows 10 version 1607
'Redstone' which disables certificate expiry checking inside mobilestartup's
.ffu flashing (ie, the "lightning bolt" windows phone flasher); and another one
enables mobilestartup's USB mass storage mode. Other interesting registry
rules change the shape of Code Integrity, ie, for a certain type of binary,
it changes the certificates considered valid for that specific binary.

(<a href="http://www.alex-ionescu.com/?p=146">Alex Ionescu wrote a
blog post that touches on Secure Boot policies.</a> He teased a
followup post that would be all about them, but that never came.)

But, they must be signed by a cert in db. That is to say, Microsoft.

Also, there is such a thing called DeviceID. It's the first 64 bits of a salted
SHA-256 hash, of some UEFI PRNG output. It's used when applying policies on
Windows Phone, and on Windows RT (mobilestartup sets it on Phone, and
SecureBootDebug.efi when that's launched for the first time on RT). On Phone,
the policy must be located in a specific place on EFIESP partition with the
filename including the hex-form of the DeviceID. (With Redstone, this got
changed to UnlockID, which is set by bootmgr, and is just the raw UEFI PRNG
output.)

Basically, bootmgr checks the policy when it loads, if it includes a DeviceID,
which doesn't match the DeviceID of the device that bootmgr is running on, the
policy will fail to load.

Any policy that allows for enabling testsigning (MS calls these Retail Device
Unlock / RDU policies, and to install them is unlocking a device), is supposed
to be locked to a DeviceID (UnlockID on Redstone and above). Indeed, I have
several policies (signed by the Windows Phone production certificate) like
this, where the only differences are the included DeviceID, and the signature.

If there is no valid policy installed, bootmgr falls back to using a default
policy located in its resources. This policy is the one which blocks enabling
testsigning, etc, using BCD rules.

Now, for Microsoft's screwups.

During the development of Windows 10 v1607 'Redstone', MS added a new type of
secure boot policy. Namely, "supplemental" policies that are located in the
EFIESP partition (rather than in a UEFI variable), and have their settings
merged in, dependant on conditions (namely, that a certain "activation" policy
is also in existance, and has been loaded in).

Redstone's bootmgr.efi loads "legacy" policies (namely, a policy from UEFI
variables) first. At a certain time in redstone dev, it did not do any further
checks beyond signature / deviceID checks. (This has now changed, but see how
the change is stupid)
After loading the "legacy" policy, or a base policy from EFIESP partition, it
then loads, checks and merges in the supplemental policies.

See the issue here? If not, let me spell it out to you plain and clear.
The "supplemental" policy contains new elements, for the merging conditions.
These conditions are (well, at one time) unchecked by bootmgr when loading a
legacy policy. And bootmgr of win10 v1511 and earlier certainly doesn't know
about them. To those bootmgrs, it has just loaded in a perfectly valid, signed
policy.

The "supplemental" policy does NOT contain a DeviceID. And, because they were
meant to be merged into a base policy, they don't contain any BCD rules either,
which means that if they are loaded, you can enable testsigning. Not just for
windows (to load unsigned driver, ie rootkit), but for the {bootmgr} element
as well, which allows bootmgr to run what is effectively an unsigned .efi
(ie bootkit)!!! (In practise, the .efi file must be signed, but it can be
self-signed) You can see how this is very bad!! A backdoor, which MS put
in to secure boot because they decided to not let the user turn it off in
certain devices, allows for secure boot to be disabled everywhere!

You can see the irony. Also the irony in that MS themselves provided us several
nice "golden keys" (as the FBI would say ;) for us to use for that purpose :)

About the FBI: are you reading this? If you are, then this is a perfect real
world example about why your idea of backdooring cryptosystems with a "secure
golden key" is very bad! Smarter people than me have been telling this to you
for so long, it seems you have your fingers in your ears. You seriously don't
understand still? Microsoft implemented a "secure golden key" system. And the
golden keys got released from MS own stupidity. Now, what happens if you tell
everyone to make a "secure golden key" system? Hopefully you can add 2+2...

Anyway, enough about that little rant, wanted to add that to a writeup ever
since this stuff was found ;)

Anyway, MS's first patch attempt. I say "attempt" because it surely doesn't do
anything useful. It blacklists (in boot.stl), most (not all!) of the policies.
Now, about boot.stl. It's a file that gets cloned to a UEFI variable only boot
services can touch, and only when the boot.stl signing time is later than the
time this UEFI variable was set.
However, this is done AFTER a secure boot policy gets loaded. Redstone's
bootmgr has extra code to use the boot.stl in the UEFI variable to check
policy revocation, but the bootmgrs of TH2 and earlier does NOT have such
code.
So, an attacker can just replace a later bootmgr with an earlier one.

Another thing: I saw some additional code in the load-legacy-policy function in
redstone 14381.rs1_release. Code that wasn't there in 14361. Code that
specifically checked the policy being loaded for an element that meant this was
a supplemental policy, and erroring out if so. So, if a system is running
Windows 10 version 1607 or above, an attacker MUST replace bootmgr with
an earlier one.

On August 9th, 2016, another patch came about, this one was given the
designation
MS16-100 and CVE-2016-3320. This one updates dbx. <a
href="https://technet.microsoft.com/en-us/library/security/ms16-100.aspx">The
advisory</a> says it revokes
bootmgrs. The dbx update seems to add these SHA256 hashes (unless I screwed up
my parsing):
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I checked the hash in the signature of several bootmgrs of several
architectures against this list, and found no matches. So either this
revokes many "obscure" bootmgrs and bootmgfws, or I'm checking the wrong hash.

Either way, it'd be impossible in practise for MS to revoke every bootmgr
earlier than a certain point, as they'd break install media, recovery
partitions,
backups, etc.

- RoL

disclosure timeline:
~march-april 2016 - found initial policy, contacted MSRC
~april 2016 - MSRC reply: wontfix, started analysis and reversing, working on
  almost-silent (3 reboots needed) PoC for possible emfcamp demonstration
~june-july 2016 - MSRC reply again, finally realising: bug bounty awarded
july 2016 - initial fix - fix analysed, deemed inadequate. reversed later rs1
  bootmgr, noticed additional inadequate mitigation
august 2016 - mini-talk about the issue at emfcamp, second fix, full writeup
  release


credits:
my123 (<a href="https://twitter.com/never_released">@never_released</a>)
-- found initial policy set, tested on surface rt
slipstream (<a href="https://twitter.com/TheWack0lian">@TheWack0lian</a>)
-- analysis of policies, reversing bootmgr/
  mobilestartup/etc, found even more policies, this writeup.

tiny-tro credits:
code and design: slipstream/RoL
font: dMG/Up Rough & Divine Stylers
awesome chiptune: bzl/cRO <3




From zen at freedbms.net  Thu Aug 11 08:46:19 2016
From: zen at freedbms.net (Zenaan Harkness)
Date: Fri, 12 Aug 2016 01:46:19 +1000
Subject: Anarchist Bibliography, please? (was Re: Deconstructing an
 Institutional Slander...)
In-Reply-To: <7b8410ac-c780-1d5e-e074-672c9160bfaf@pilobilus.net>
References: <CAG2tMp55nML9+v0hnLVfe+OqPsCMUNiB66FR-VjmTn3pkGSTRw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAG2tMp7M3BpOUOcv6fkOYK=cYvYCWmg3nFrL8QSGBF0JPr5pjg@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAG2tMp5A5AxiYHR4JQ-ECFCy80nsa8-xxYw5gs5vMEfHtHKRgg@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAG2tMp4HdMnuXO7K5OvAie1+f1bsU5_iDg-nEcy=PTvJfV+XFA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAG2tMp6sd1r-FwLWd2SmQTQ-JJJpCPyU9hDKKKkew8symGGtJQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAG2tMp5CmWA9rzgwDpe9XDYbOcKooAq15PrDD1UtorcnPZo--Q@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAG2tMp5VUSFrJJXVXU35VBkY4trmH8K+7yECpnQAvfX7iRF3qQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <20160809194322.GA24863@synfin.org>
 <770311470819794@web20h.yandex.ru>
 <7b8410ac-c780-1d5e-e074-672c9160bfaf@pilobilus.net>
Message-ID: <20160811154619.GA2957@x220-a02>

On Wed, Aug 10, 2016 at 09:53:14PM -0400, Steve Kinney wrote:
> On 08/10/2016 05:03 AM, Bastiani Fortress wrote:
> > 11:00 PM, August 9, 2016, John Newman <jnn at synfin.org>:

> > Personally I don't hold much hope for humanity..I figure the
> > solution to Fermis paradox is self-evident.

> We don't see interstellar "civilizations" very often, because those
> who did not get over making everything bigger and more powerful for
> sake of bigness and power didn't make it.  For reals.  Some of those
> gamma bursts may be industrial accidents, or Bad Outcomes to MAD based
> defense strategies (an especially stupid kind of industrial accident).

Is there a name for the planet that was the asteroid belt before it was
an asteroid belt?

Mars' Marina Canyon/ trench, may have been from rain of some composition,
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Valles_Marineris
but perhaps was an interplanetary energy warfare result where ultimately
Mars succeeded and that other planet became the asteroid belt. To my
eye, that trench looks more like target practice (for a somewhat intense
version of 'practice') rather than river delta...


> If the absence of torrents of long range EM message traffic is
> surprising, that's only because we presume aliens talk with strings
> and tin cans "just like us."  If the absence of star drive signatures
> is surprising, it's more likely that our assumptions about what those
> signatures would be are faulty, than that there are no interstellar
> voyagers riding the starwinds.  If the absence of physical visitors is
> surprising, that just means a lot of people have not taken a hard
> critical look at UFO investigations:  Failure to invade and loot or
> otherwise dominate a technologically weaker species' cradle planet may
> be evidence of the presence of extraterrestrial intelligence, rather
> than its absence.

:)




From jdb10987 at yahoo.com  Thu Aug 11 19:12:44 2016
From: jdb10987 at yahoo.com (jim bell)
Date: Fri, 12 Aug 2016 02:12:44 +0000 (UTC)
Subject: Assange outs the DNC e-mail "leaker"
In-Reply-To: <307441586.15211747.1470892372288.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com>
References: <51df3755-acf1-940a-b09a-962dac8ac4ea@pilobilus.net>
 <307441586.15211747.1470892372288.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <2002725633.15244959.1470967965013.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com>

This may not have 'gone' the first time.              Jim Bell

      From: jim bell <jdb10987 at yahoo.com>
 To: Steve Kinney <admin at pilobilus.net>; "cypherpunks at cpunks.org" <cypherpunks at cpunks.org> 
 Sent: Wednesday, August 10, 2016 10:12 PM
 Subject: Re: Assange outs the DNC e-mail "leaker"
   


 From: Steve Kinney <admin at pilobilus.net>
>Julian Assange has, in a deniable and snarky way, told the world that
>DNC staff member Seth Rich was the source of the DNC e-mail leak.  And
>put a $20k bounty on the head of whoever murdered him.

I'm skeptical of this conclusion.  Obviously, Wikileaks has the provision to allow people to leak information anonymously.  That doesn't mean that any givenleaker was anonymous to them, but it's still a possibility.   
And even if anonymous, it would be a good guess that the leaker was an insider.The sudden and suspicious death of an insider would at least seem to point to a possible identity.  Julian Assange knows that there will be much speculation;Wikileaks has a powerful motivation to keep the leaks coming, and it knows that people will be paying attention to how it deals with such possibilities.  It mighteven be suspected that to fail to offer such a reward, implies that Wikileaks didn't care about (possible) leakers.  What should he do?  If it were me,I'd offer such a reward, even if I knew for certain the victim wasn't the leaker.
Offering such a reward even where they know it isn't the leaker would also havethe side-benefit of diverting attention from the actual leaker, whoever he mighthappen to be.            Jim Bell

>https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Kp7FkLBRpKg

>https://twitter.com/wikileaks/status/763041804652539904

>As a "legal" variant on AP, crowdfunding a more than matching bounty
>could be a useful exercise.  There would of course have to be a time
>limit, and an alternate beneficiary in the event that the reward goes
>unclaimed.  Wikileaks itself seems like a good candidate for the
>alternative beneficiary.
Yes!   An excellent suggestion.


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From jdb10987 at yahoo.com  Fri Aug 12 00:05:45 2016
From: jdb10987 at yahoo.com (jim bell)
Date: Fri, 12 Aug 2016 07:05:45 +0000 (UTC)
Subject: Data transferred over air gap.
References: <933991595.15143662.1470985545057.JavaMail.yahoo.ref@mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <933991595.15143662.1470985545057.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com>

http://arstechnica.com/security/2016/08/new-air-gap-jumper-covertly-transmits-data-in-hard-drive-sounds/


"Researchers have devised a new way to siphon data out of an infected computer even when it has been physically disconnected from the Internet to prevent the leakage of sensitive information it stores.
The method has been dubbed "DiskFiltration" by its creators because it uses acoustic signals emitted from the hard drive of the air-gapped computer being targeted. It works by manipulating the movements of the hard drive's actuator, which is the mechanical arm that accesses specific parts of disk platter so heads attached to the actuator can read or write data. By using so-called seek operations that move the actuator in very specific ways, it can generate sounds that transfer passwords, cryptographic keys, and other sensitive data stored on the computer to a nearby microphone. The technique has a range of six feet and a speed of 180 bits per minute, fast enough to steal a 4096-bit key in about 25 minutes.
"An air-gap isolation is considered to be a hermetic security measure which can prevent data leakage," Mordechai Guri, a security researcher and the head of research and development in the cyber security labs at Israel's Ben-Gurion University, told Ars. "Confidential data, personal information, financial records and other type of sensitive information is stored within isolated networks. We show that despite the degree of isolation, the data can be exfiltrated (for example, to a nearby smart phone)."
Besides working against air-gapped computers, the covert channel can also be used to steal data from Internet-connected machines whose network traffic is intensively monitored by intrusion prevention devices, data loss prevention systems, and similar security measures. The technique is documented in a technical paper titled DiskFiltration: Data Exfiltration from Speakerless Air-Gapped Computers via Covert Hard Drive Noise, which was published Thursday night. Guri and the other Ben-Gurion University researchers who devised the covert channel created the video demonstration below."
[end of partial quote]
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From jdb10987 at yahoo.com  Fri Aug 12 00:09:56 2016
From: jdb10987 at yahoo.com (jim bell)
Date: Fri, 12 Aug 2016 07:09:56 +0000 (UTC)
Subject: Western Digital self-encrypting drives have security flaws.
References: <1629257556.15750755.1470985796586.JavaMail.yahoo.ref@mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <1629257556.15750755.1470985796586.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com>

http://arstechnica.com/security/2015/10/western-digital-self-encrypting-hard-drives-riddled-with-security-flaws/


"Several versions of self-encrypting hard drives from Western Digital are riddled with so many security flaws that attackers with physical access can retrieve the data with little effort, and in some cases, without even knowing the decryption password, a team of academics said.
The paper, titled got HW crypto? On the (in)security of a Self-Encrypting Drive series, recited a litany of weaknesses in the multiple versions of the My Passport and My Book brands of external hard drives. The flaws make it possible for people who steal a vulnerable drive to decrypt its contents, even when they're locked down with a long, randomly generated password. The devices are designed to self-encrypt all stored data, a feature that saves users the time and expense of using full-disk encryption software.
"After researching the inner workings of some of the numerous models in the My Passport external hard drive series, several serious security vulnerabilities have been discovered, affecting both authentication and confidentiality of user data," the researchers wrote. "We developed several different attacks to recover user data from these password protected and fully encrypted external hard disks."
Most of the disks studied encrypt and decrypt data using a USB bridge that connects a computer to the external drive's SATA interface. The interface is supposed to be off limits until after the computer user has entered the correct password, and to prevent cracking attacks that try billions of password guesses each second, the plain-text passcode is cryptographically salted and subjected to 1,000 iterations of the SHA256 hash function.
But a constellation of errors makes it possible to crack the password in a short amount of time. In one case, the underlying key was predictable because the random numbers used to generate it was derived from the current time on the computer clock. That flaw was fixed last year, but it's likely many people with vulnerable drives have no idea they're at risk. In other cases, it was possible to extract the hash off the drive and load it onto a computer so it could be subjected to off-line cracking."
[end of partial quote]
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From rayzer at riseup.net  Fri Aug 12 08:11:59 2016
From: rayzer at riseup.net (Rayzer)
Date: Fri, 12 Aug 2016 08:11:59 -0700
Subject: Apple at BlackHat: Reopening the "Going Dark" Debate (Lawfare)
Message-ID: <09319b9b-0463-2aab-014d-76cfa7b21d48@riseup.net>

Just over a week ago, at the BlackHat hacker convention in Las Vegas,
Ivan Krstić, Head of Security Engineering and Architecture at Apple gave
a talk entitled “Behind the scenes of iOS Security,” the slides of which
are available here.

It’s a historic talk for a couple of reasons. First, Apple is
traditionally very secretive about how it technically does security on
its devices. Apple also announced its first bug bounty program. So far,
so newsworthy.

But something else happened at that talk. Unbeknownst to the presenter
or anybody in the audience, Apple just reopened the “Going Dark” dispute
between the FBI and the privacy community, and it turned the entire
dispute on its head. In the cold light of day, I suspect Apple, the US
government, and privacy activists are going to be rather unhappy when
they digest the sobering implications of the talk, though they will
likely be upset for entirely different reasons.

In short, Apple built the very thing that they and the privacy community
have been saying for years is reckless, dangerous or impossible: a
high-value encryption key secured in a vault such that the key can’t be
stolen or misused by hackers or malicious insiders. And without a hint
of self-awareness Apple’s head of security engineering and architecture
went all the way to BlackHat in Las Vegas to boast about how they did it.

But I’m getting ahead of myself. Let’s start at the beginning...

https://lawfareblog.com/apple-blackhat-reopening-going-dark-debate




From guninski at guninski.com  Thu Aug 11 22:19:35 2016
From: guninski at guninski.com (Georgi Guninski)
Date: Fri, 12 Aug 2016 08:19:35 +0300
Subject: Someone leaked Microsoft Keys
In-Reply-To: <468154759.15060316.1470957568136.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com>
References: <468154759.15060316.1470957568136.JavaMail.yahoo.ref@mail.yahoo.com>
 <468154759.15060316.1470957568136.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <20160812051935.GA848@sivokote.iziade.m$>

On Thu, Aug 11, 2016 at 11:19:28PM +0000, jim bell wrote:
> http://www.ibtimes.co.uk/microsoft-accidentally-leaks-golden-keys-that-unlock-every-windows-device-1575542?utm_source=yahoo&utm_medium=referral&utm_campaign=rss&utm_content=/rss/yahoous/news&yptr=yahoo
> 
>

As I read it, "key" is metaphor and not in the crypto sense.
Is this right?

This is supported by the linked description of the screwups and by
theregister description: "m$ _attempts_ to fix design flaw".
 




From rayzer at riseup.net  Fri Aug 12 09:35:32 2016
From: rayzer at riseup.net (Rayzer)
Date: Fri, 12 Aug 2016 09:35:32 -0700
Subject: i'm slightly...
In-Reply-To: <115731470979246@web3h.yandex.ru>
References: <0000af211ce0$bfd66916$206ff5ac$@yahoo.com>
 <115731470979246@web3h.yandex.ru>
Message-ID: <9df1029f-bdcc-cdb7-d8d7-532a269eaaef@riseup.net>

> Sender email is commonly abused enduser mail provider (serrahwolf[at]yahoo.com)


As you can see from the modified-by-t-bird subject line your post ended
up in my spam folder. It's listmail. I got one too, as did everyone else
and it was routed automagically to my spam folder as well.



From bastianifortress at yandex.com  Fri Aug 12 01:10:47 2016
From: bastianifortress at yandex.com (Bastiani Fortress)
Date: Fri, 12 Aug 2016 10:10:47 +0200
Subject: Data transferred over air gap.
In-Reply-To: <20160812073149.GB1740@sivokote.iziade.m$>
References: <933991595.15143662.1470985545057.JavaMail.yahoo.ref@mail.yahoo.com>
 <933991595.15143662.1470985545057.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com>
 <20160812073149.GB1740@sivokote.iziade.m$>
Message-ID: <24911470989447@web3g.yandex.ru>

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From guninski at guninski.com  Fri Aug 12 00:31:49 2016
From: guninski at guninski.com (Georgi Guninski)
Date: Fri, 12 Aug 2016 10:31:49 +0300
Subject: Data transferred over air gap.
In-Reply-To: <933991595.15143662.1470985545057.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com>
References: <933991595.15143662.1470985545057.JavaMail.yahoo.ref@mail.yahoo.com>
 <933991595.15143662.1470985545057.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <20160812073149.GB1740@sivokote.iziade.m$>

On Fri, Aug 12, 2016 at 07:05:45AM +0000, jim bell wrote:
> http://arstechnica.com/security/2016/08/new-air-gap-jumper-covertly-transmits-data-in-hard-drive-sounds/
> 
> 
> "Researchers have devised a new way to siphon data out of an infected computer even when it has been physically disconnected from the Internet to prevent the leakage of sensitive information it stores.

I think this is not new, possibly except for using the hard drive.

Don't remember the details. Sometime ago, someone with high reputation
(maybe related to a BSD project) claimed that he was infected by malware
using this. The malware used the speaker/soundcard.




From zen at freedbms.net  Thu Aug 11 18:20:48 2016
From: zen at freedbms.net (Zenaan Harkness)
Date: Fri, 12 Aug 2016 11:20:48 +1000
Subject: tapping the libre world - USA steams ahead of Russia
Message-ID: <20160812012048.GD2957@x220-a02>

A very rare instance where the USA government is taking the initiative,
in positive way, rather than just bombing and droning people to death on
a daily basis.

Russia legislated to "preference domestic software" in comparison.

As most around here know, free-libre open source software, when even
marginally funded, has an almost certain chance to dominate its sector
or niche over any and all proprietary alternatives, at least over the
medium term.

This means that the USA government, and any companies building on
government-funded libre source code, are likely to have a competitive
edge over those companies and governments that do not build such a
community ecosystem. It's a simple matter of the mathematical and human
dynamics in play with libre software.

On the libre front, Red Hat is unimpeachable, absolutely impeccable
record for sticking to libre principles, and they maintain a very
enviable position in the software services market.

Yes Red Hat had a first mover advantage (Cygnus), but the point is, they
can never be unfairly challenged on their fundamental competitive edge -
libre software; at most competitors can compete and target particular
sectors and offer "better" service to potential customers, but no one
can ever be more competitive on the fundamental software front, since
libre open source software IS a level playing field.

The Russian PostgreSQL services company thread we saw here a few months
ago is a great example - they are building a lead in Russia which will
become unassailable in the way that Red Hat is unassailable.

And in both cases, rightly so, and righteously so!

(I even tried to use RedHat for a few weeks some years back, to see if
it would be appealing to me, but alas my Debian muscle memory wracked my
soul in an irrevocable death grip of libre file locations and command
sequences...)

There are other examples <AHEMCAUGH>tor<GRRMHPH> too - it is difficult
to challenge hegemony, much more so a libre community-oriented "fully
open source, man" hegemony :/



------------------------------------------------------------------------
https://lwn.net/Articles/696843/
The People’s Code (White House blog)
[Announcements] Posted Aug 9, 2016 18:56 UTC (Tue) by ris

US Chief Information Officer Tony Scott introduces[1] the Federal Source
Code Policy[2], on the White House blog. "By making source code
available for sharing and re-use across Federal agencies, we can avoid
duplicative custom software purchases and promote innovation and
collaboration across Federal agencies. By opening more of our code to
the brightest minds inside and outside of government, we can enable them
to work together to ensure that the code is reliable and effective in
furthering our national objectives. And we can do all of this while
remaining consistent with the Federal Government’s long-standing
policy of technology neutrality, through which we seek to ensure that
Federal investments in IT are merit-based, improve the performance of
our government, and create value for the American people." (Thanks to
David A. Wheeler)

 [1] https://www.whitehouse.gov/blog/2016/08/08/peoples-code
 [2] https://sourcecode.cio.gov/




From zen at freedbms.net  Thu Aug 11 19:00:27 2016
From: zen at freedbms.net (Zenaan Harkness)
Date: Fri, 12 Aug 2016 12:00:27 +1000
Subject: tor promises to be good*
In-Reply-To: <90B57D40-9B68-4559-BA34-922BFA6041AD@littledystopia.net>
References: <90B57D40-9B68-4559-BA34-922BFA6041AD@littledystopia.net>
Message-ID: <20160812020027.GE2957@x220-a02>

On Thu, Aug 11, 2016 at 09:08:06PM -0400, bbrewer wrote:
> No worries, JUAN, they promise no backdoors… (I’m with you on your design stance, btw)
> 
> https://blog.torproject.org/blog/tor-social-contract

Tor Inc. "Do 'no backdoors' evil" - gee, where did we hear -that-
hollow 'promise' before?

<caugh>Google</splutter>

Juan, you're right of course - where the funding is compromised, the
entity is compromised.

And corporations have a sociopathic "profit at all costs"
constitutional/ foundational principle - so any "good" they "promise"
shall be compromised, the only question being timing (and often times
that timing is "now, we trust peeps don't see it yet".




From zen at freedbms.net  Thu Aug 11 19:02:22 2016
From: zen at freedbms.net (Zenaan Harkness)
Date: Fri, 12 Aug 2016 12:02:22 +1000
Subject: tapping the libre world - USA steams ahead of Russia
In-Reply-To: <20160812012048.GD2957@x220-a02>
References: <20160812012048.GD2957@x220-a02>
Message-ID: <20160812020222.GF2957@x220-a02>

On Fri, Aug 12, 2016 at 11:20:48AM +1000, Zenaan Harkness wrote:
> A very rare instance where the USA government is taking the initiative,
> in positive way, rather than just bombing and droning people to death on
> a daily basis.

Should have written ", besides their ongoing bombing and droning people
to death on a daily basis" ...

Lipstick on a pig.




From zen at freedbms.net  Thu Aug 11 20:05:15 2016
From: zen at freedbms.net (Zenaan Harkness)
Date: Fri, 12 Aug 2016 13:05:15 +1000
Subject: Someone leaked Microsoft Keys
In-Reply-To: <57ad2e43.ed35c80a.67869.0eac@mx.google.com>
References: <468154759.15060316.1470957568136.JavaMail.yahoo.ref@mail.yahoo.com>
 <468154759.15060316.1470957568136.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com>
 <57ad2e43.ed35c80a.67869.0eac@mx.google.com>
Message-ID: <20160812030515.GG2957@x220-a02>

On Thu, Aug 11, 2016 at 11:07:21PM -0300, juan wrote:
> On Thu, 11 Aug 2016 23:19:28 +0000 (UTC)
> jim bell <jdb10987 at yahoo.com> wrote:
> 
> > http://www.ibtimes.co.uk/microsoft-accidentally-leaks-golden-keys-that-unlock-every-windows-device-1575542?utm_source=yahoo&utm_medium=referral&utm_campaign=rss&utm_content=/rss/yahoous/news&yptr=yahoo
> >
>  
> > then this is a perfect real world example
> > about why your idea of backdooring cryptosystems with a 'secure
> > golden key' is very bad!," 
> 
> 
> 	Is it? Doesn't this mean that now people can bypass that
> 	'secure' boot shit and actually own their hardware? 

Mate, if I didn't know anything, I'd call you a bloody anarchist.







:)




From zen at freedbms.net  Thu Aug 11 20:31:49 2016
From: zen at freedbms.net (Zenaan Harkness)
Date: Fri, 12 Aug 2016 13:31:49 +1000
Subject: Assange outs the DNC e-mail "leaker"
In-Reply-To: <20160811082022.GA11223@x220-a02>
References: <51df3755-acf1-940a-b09a-962dac8ac4ea@pilobilus.net>
 <20160811044150.GE3319@x220-a02> <20160811082022.GA11223@x220-a02>
Message-ID: <20160812033149.GA14338@x220-a02>

More on the DNC's killing mentality:



** CNN host Don Lemon destroyed by Secret Service agent over Donald
Trump’s 2nd amendment speech [Video]
(http://theduran.com/cnn-host-don-lemon-destroyed-by-secret-service-agent-over-donald-trump-2nd-second-amendment-speech-video/)
------------------------------------------------------------
By Alex Christoforou on Aug 11, 2016 05:45 pm
cnn-host-don-lemon-destroyed-by

Secret Service agent Dan Bongino called the media’s excessive commenting
on Donald Trump’s recent second amendment speech “comical”. Liberal
progressive host Don Lemon was quick to side with Hillary and sound the
alarm bells, that Donald Trump is calling on NRA card holders to take
out Clinton.

Dan Bongino found this narrative ridiculous, interpreting Trumps’
comments as nothing more than a call to all NRA supporters to get out
the vote against Hillary.

Lost in the latest media Trump bashing, is the fact that just the other
day CNN host and Hillary supporter Bob Beckel openly called for the
assassination of Julian Assange
(http://theduran.com/kill-julian-assange-says-cnn-host-and-democratic-strategist-because-a-dead-man-cant-leak-stuff/)
, while former CIA deputy director and necon Hillary supporter Michael
Morell, told Charlie Rose that the US should assassinate Syrian, Iranian
and Russian officials
(http://theduran.com/bizarre-tv-interview-former-cia-chief-hillary-clinton-backer-calls-covert-programme-murder-russians/)
.

Of course these overt and detailed calls to murder people was barely
reported in the main stream news. Maybe that has something to do with
the fact that the death calls came from Hillary surrogates.

IFRAME:
[1]http://www.youtube.com/embed/IvgH-Zs_GDc?version=3&rel=1&fs=1&autohide=2&showsearch=0&showinfo=1&iv_load_policy=1&wmode=transparent

BPR has more
(http://www.bizpacreview.com/2016/08/09/now-cut-off-mic-bongino-refuses-bullied-don-lemon-trump-2nd-amendment-heated-376846)
on the hearted exchange between Lemon and Bongino…

Things got real personal Tuesday night between CNN’s Don Lemon and
former Secret Service agent Dan Bongino while discussing Donald Trump’s
much maligned comment on Second Amendment supporters possibly stopping
rival Hillary Clinton.

Perhaps Lemon took exception to Bongino summarizing the hyperventilating
on the left as being “in the comical realm.”

Either way, Bongino correctly labeled the charge that Trump was somehow
calling for the assassination of Clinton as “absurd” while explaining
his point of view.

Throwing any pretense of neutrality out the window, Lemon clearly did
not agree with that point of view.

“What you’re saying right now makes no sense!” the CNN host charged.
“I’m sitting at home, I’m watching Donald Trump. I have two ears and I
have two eyes and I can see the reactions… We’re not stupid!”

“You should be ashamed of yourself!” Lemon added.

“I’m ashamed that you’re talking to me as if I’m a child!” his guest
fired back, as the two began going at one another.

“You don’t know crap about this, Don! You’re a TV guy!” Bongino said. “I
was a Secret Service Agent! Now cut off my mic! Do what you wanna do!”

Lemon countered by telling Bongino he was “lying to the American
people,” prompting Bongino to again correctly label the left’s reaction
as “nonsense.”

Via:
http://www.bizpacreview.com/2016/08/09/now-cut-off-mic-bongino-refuses-bullied-don-lemon-trump-2nd-amendment-heated-376846

The post CNN host Don Lemon destroyed by Secret Service agent over
Donald Trump’s 2nd amendment speech [Video]
(http://theduran.com/cnn-host-don-lemon-destroyed-by-secret-service-agent-over-donald-trump-2nd-second-amendment-speech-video/)
appeared first on The Duran (http://theduran.com) .

References

1.
http://www.youtube.com/embed/IvgH-Zs_GDc?version=3&rel=1&fs=1&autohide=2&showsearch=0&showinfo=1&iv_load_policy=1&wmode=transparent




More "subtle" Donald Trump:


** Donald Trump says Barack Obama is the “founder of ISIS” and ‘crooked’
Hillary Clinton is the “co-founder” [Video]
(http://theduran.com/donald-trump-says-barack-obama-founder-isis-crooked-hillary-clinton-co-founder/)
------------------------------------------------------------
By Alex Christoforou on Aug 11, 2016 06:16 pm
Donald Trump says Barack Obama is the “founder of ISIS” and ‘Crooked’
Hillary Clinton is the “co-founder” [Video]

While very few people in the media or in government would ever say such
a thing, Donald Trump did say it, and he is correct in a certain way.

Barack Obama and Hillary Clinton, through their actions in Libya and
Syria, gave birth and funded ISIS, until the group they once called
“moderate rebels” took a life of it’s own, and violently turned on its
western masters.

IFRAME:
[1]http://www.youtube.com/embed/mCHuZM_9qTk?version=3&rel=1&fs=1&autohide=2&showsearch=0&showinfo=1&iv_load_policy=1&wmode=transparent

Zerohedge reports
(http://www.zerohedge.com/news/2016-08-11/trump-accuses-obama-being-founder-isis-crooked-hillary-clinton-co-founder)
that Trump is focusing in on the Obama-Clinton foreign policy mess, that
is the middle east:

Obama “founded” ISIS, a statement that has already incited angry
rebuttals from the media even if it confirms what a secret Pentagon
report revealed
(http://www.zerohedge.com/news/2015-05-23/secret-pentagon-report-reveals-us-created-isis-tool-overthrow-syrias-president-assad)
last May according to which ISIS was created by the US as a “tool to
overthrow the Syrian president.”

“ISIS is honoring President Obama,” he said during a rally in Fort
Lauderdale, adding that “He is the founder of ISIS. He founded ISIS.”

He did not spare Hillary either: “I would say the co-founder would be
‘Crooked’ Hillary Clinton,” Trump added of his Democratic rival.

Trump criticized Obama’s decision to withdraw U.S. military forces from
the Middle East and leaving behind a void ISIS could fill.

“We should never have gotten out the way we got out,” he said. “We
unleashed terrible fury all over the Middle East.” Alternatively, one
can argue that the US should have never gotten in but that debate is
beyond the scope of this post.

“Instead of allowing some small forces behind to maybe, just maybe, keep
it under control, we pulled it out,” the GOP’s presidential nominee
added.

“Then Obama came in, and normally you want to clean up and he made a
bigger mess. We’re not respected. We’re laughed at all over the world.”

Trump made similar comments last week, when he called Clinton the
“founder of ISIS” and said “she should get an award from them.”

Donald Trump calls President Obama the ‘founder of ISIS’ and Hillary
Clinton its co-founderhttps://t.co/0VEZ9zBE6o

— FOX & Friends (@foxandfriends) August 11, 2016
(https://twitter.com/foxandfriends/status/763678956113448960)

Via:
http://www.zerohedge.com/news/2016-08-11/trump-accuses-obama-being-founder-isis-crooked-hillary-clinton-co-founder

The post Donald Trump says Barack Obama is the “founder of ISIS” and
‘crooked’ Hillary Clinton is the “co-founder” [Video]
(http://theduran.com/donald-trump-says-barack-obama-founder-isis-crooked-hillary-clinton-co-founder/)
appeared first on The Duran (http://theduran.com) .

References

1.
http://www.youtube.com/embed/mCHuZM_9qTk?version=3&rel=1&fs=1&autohide=2&showsearch=0&showinfo=1&iv_load_policy=1&wmode=transparent




From cecilia.tanaka at gmail.com  Fri Aug 12 09:55:16 2016
From: cecilia.tanaka at gmail.com (Cecilia Tanaka)
Date: Fri, 12 Aug 2016 13:55:16 -0300
Subject: Anarchist Bibliography, please? (was Re: Deconstructing an
 Institutional Slander...)
In-Reply-To: <1901740634.15491731.1470940533090.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com>
References: <CAG2tMp55nML9+v0hnLVfe+OqPsCMUNiB66FR-VjmTn3pkGSTRw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAG2tMp7M3BpOUOcv6fkOYK=cYvYCWmg3nFrL8QSGBF0JPr5pjg@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAG2tMp5A5AxiYHR4JQ-ECFCy80nsa8-xxYw5gs5vMEfHtHKRgg@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAG2tMp4HdMnuXO7K5OvAie1+f1bsU5_iDg-nEcy=PTvJfV+XFA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAG2tMp6sd1r-FwLWd2SmQTQ-JJJpCPyU9hDKKKkew8symGGtJQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAG2tMp5CmWA9rzgwDpe9XDYbOcKooAq15PrDD1UtorcnPZo--Q@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAG2tMp5VUSFrJJXVXU35VBkY4trmH8K+7yECpnQAvfX7iRF3qQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <20160809194322.GA24863@synfin.org> <770311470819794@web20h.yandex.ru>
 <7b8410ac-c780-1d5e-e074-672c9160bfaf@pilobilus.net>
 <20160811154619.GA2957@x220-a02>
 <1901740634.15491731.1470940533090.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <CAG2tMp5txzXKY-cs28VYEC7dY3+1C5iJ+Z7R96yN8p=Lzgeq_A@mail.gmail.com>

The sweetest person of this list [1] asked me if this music could be a good
Cypherpunks theme song...  :)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s2LUqMH8x-I

Being sincere, I didn't like the music, but the lyrics are very
interesting, hihi!  ;)

We already had some suggestions in this thread, like "Propagandhi" and
"Rage Against The Machine", but what could be a really good anarchist
soundtrack for this weekend, please?  :D

Ah, thank you very much for all the suggested readings, lovely people!  I
am reading the bibliography a bit every day.  Lots of books at same time,
of course.  Chaos is fun.  :)

Happy kisses, love and tickles!!!  <3

Ceci

[1]  Ah, when he is not complaining and being acid, he is almost a very
happy labrador able of typing, wagging his tail like a fan while listens
to  (ahem, bad!)  music, haha!!  Definitely love him, haha!!  ;D

No, it isn't Steve.  He never is acid and is always more charming than
Snoopy dancing.  Happy beagle's dance, ow!  Love Steve too!  <3  <3  <3

<http://youtu.be/iFNLbAs3KAU>
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From cecilia.tanaka at gmail.com  Fri Aug 12 11:54:57 2016
From: cecilia.tanaka at gmail.com (Cecilia Tanaka)
Date: Fri, 12 Aug 2016 15:54:57 -0300
Subject: Anarchist Bibliography, please? (was Re: Deconstructing an
 Institutional Slander...)
In-Reply-To: <S1k4FDNPgtmj6fePiX7d4BJS6pO-eoTZUmHSVzAEyQBCwBt0oBWLLlLM8oPfJ15LVndY_n796bXSuKvx2kqr1w==@protonmail.ch>
References: <CAG2tMp55nML9+v0hnLVfe+OqPsCMUNiB66FR-VjmTn3pkGSTRw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAG2tMp5CmWA9rzgwDpe9XDYbOcKooAq15PrDD1UtorcnPZo--Q@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAG2tMp5VUSFrJJXVXU35VBkY4trmH8K+7yECpnQAvfX7iRF3qQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <20160809194322.GA24863@synfin.org> <770311470819794@web20h.yandex.ru>
 <7b8410ac-c780-1d5e-e074-672c9160bfaf@pilobilus.net>
 <20160811154619.GA2957@x220-a02>
 <1901740634.15491731.1470940533090.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com>
 <CAG2tMp5txzXKY-cs28VYEC7dY3+1C5iJ+Z7R96yN8p=Lzgeq_A@mail.gmail.com>
 <S1k4FDNPgtmj6fePiX7d4BJS6pO-eoTZUmHSVzAEyQBCwBt0oBWLLlLM8oPfJ15LVndY_n796bXSuKvx2kqr1w==@protonmail.ch>
Message-ID: <CAG2tMp42nBuMJ1q4B1NwRDQxai6MoYJAWCgv076RJS3d_56eVw@mail.gmail.com>

On Aug 12, 2016 3:04 PM, ¯\_(ツ)_/¯ <bizdevcon at protonmail.ch> wrote:
>
> Your comments are as useless as osmotic diarrhea…

So, please, be more useful than me.  I never had the honor of reading
something useful of your astonishing authorship in this list.  Write
something useful, please.  Share your awesome knowledge with the rest of
the world, show your bright superior intelligence!  :D

Oh, sorry!  Obviously, you are lurking to pretend being less stupid and
limited about a lot of subjects.  So, please, go lurking in silence again,
ok?  :)

Your shit is not better than my diarrhea, boy.  You are just a stupid
loser, who doesn't know how to use filters.  D'oh, shut up and study.  Or
do you need some help to learn how to google it, poor limited creature?  :)

I am stupid, but you are more stupid than me.  In my country, when a donkey
brays, the other donkey respects in silence or makes a better 'heehaw'.
Incompetent donkey, aff...  :P

Heehaws and kisses!  Tell me if you need help with the filters thing!  :*
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From cecilia.tanaka at gmail.com  Fri Aug 12 14:49:38 2016
From: cecilia.tanaka at gmail.com (Cecilia Tanaka)
Date: Fri, 12 Aug 2016 18:49:38 -0300
Subject: Anarchist Bibliography, please? (was Re: Deconstructing an
 Institutional Slander...)
In-Reply-To: <CAG2tMp42nBuMJ1q4B1NwRDQxai6MoYJAWCgv076RJS3d_56eVw@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAG2tMp55nML9+v0hnLVfe+OqPsCMUNiB66FR-VjmTn3pkGSTRw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAG2tMp5CmWA9rzgwDpe9XDYbOcKooAq15PrDD1UtorcnPZo--Q@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAG2tMp5VUSFrJJXVXU35VBkY4trmH8K+7yECpnQAvfX7iRF3qQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <20160809194322.GA24863@synfin.org> <770311470819794@web20h.yandex.ru>
 <7b8410ac-c780-1d5e-e074-672c9160bfaf@pilobilus.net>
 <20160811154619.GA2957@x220-a02>
 <1901740634.15491731.1470940533090.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com>
 <CAG2tMp5txzXKY-cs28VYEC7dY3+1C5iJ+Z7R96yN8p=Lzgeq_A@mail.gmail.com>
 <S1k4FDNPgtmj6fePiX7d4BJS6pO-eoTZUmHSVzAEyQBCwBt0oBWLLlLM8oPfJ15LVndY_n796bXSuKvx2kqr1w==@protonmail.ch>
 <CAG2tMp42nBuMJ1q4B1NwRDQxai6MoYJAWCgv076RJS3d_56eVw@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAG2tMp78gKpm5mP4vmR37wTFBuPa5V77ES-TsUgzQ=qQa8HdBg@mail.gmail.com>

Not exactly an anarchist music, but pretty human.  Just a very sad and
beautiful song...  </3

<https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vt1Pwfnh5pc>
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From zen at freedbms.net  Fri Aug 12 05:46:35 2016
From: zen at freedbms.net (Zenaan Harkness)
Date: Fri, 12 Aug 2016 22:46:35 +1000
Subject: Light makes a come back - touch down in the 5th dimension - yeah
 baby !!!;wq
In-Reply-To: <20160806074712.GA5171@x220-a02>
References: <57a44457.4c64370a.22ed0.1e04@mx.google.com>
 <20160805080713.GE1038@sivokote.iziade.m$>
 <2034279837.11486285.1470387532268.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com>
 <20160805115131.GH1038@sivokote.iziade.m$>
 <57A4AC72.6000301@riseup.net> <20160805181424.GV2570@x220-a02>
 <1097950974.12249609.1470466083106.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com>
 <2011506479.12063143.1470467182582.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com>
 <387321200.12022230.1470467690785.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com>
 <20160806074712.GA5171@x220-a02>
Message-ID: <20160812124635.GA27340@x220-a02>

More amazingness from scientific boffins:
http://newatlas.com/light-switch-bose-einstein-polaritons-cambridge/44805/




From zen at freedbms.net  Fri Aug 12 17:16:30 2016
From: zen at freedbms.net (Zenaan Harkness)
Date: Sat, 13 Aug 2016 10:16:30 +1000
Subject: [MONEY] The USA Debt Time-bomb
In-Reply-To: <20160730143134.GI17721@x220-a02>
References: <20160730143134.GI17721@x220-a02>
Message-ID: <20160813001630.GA2293@x220-a02>

On Sun, Jul 31, 2016 at 12:31:34AM +1000, Zenaan Harkness wrote:
> F. William Engdahl
> The USA Debt Time-bomb Tocking, Ticking, Tock, Tick ...
> http://journal-neo.org/2016/07/28/the-usa-debt-time-bomb-tocking-ticking-tock-tick/
> 
> 
> 
> This one's gonna be big ..


>From the UK to Japan, North America to Australia, France, Italy, Greece,
Spain, Germany and the rest, all the big players are printing QE money
like there's no tomorrow and the small players are haemorrhaging
everywhere.

The news just keeps getting better (for negative interest rate values of
"better"):



By Vern Gowdie
http://click2.portphillippublishing.com.au/t/FA/FgE/Kgs/AAmANg/HKY/AAFmvw/Ag/kM72
in London

‘ Investors are buying bonds for capital appreciation and stocks for
income. The world has turned upside down… It is a poison brew that
central banks keep serving us. ’

— James Abate, Chief Investment Officer at Centre Asset Management LLC

‘Fears mount for pensions as gilt yields touch negative territory’

— Financial Times , 11 August 2016

‘Royal Mail set to close door on ‘gold-plated’ pension plan — Record-low
interest rates add to fears’

— Financial Times , 11 August 2016

In the blind pursuit of making debt cheaper to keep the debt-dependent
economic growth model in motion, central banks appear to have forgotten
Merton’s Law of unintended consequences.

Actions always have reactions.

With negative interest rates, governments, and some high quality
corporates, are now being paid to borrow money. This is plain dumb. But
that’s the upside-down world we currently inhabit.

I say ‘currently’, as it defies logic to think negative rates are a
lasting phenomenon.

Best guess is that it’s going to be one of those periods economic
historians will file away under ‘insanity’, ‘desperation’ or ‘what the
hell were they thinking back then?’

While some say economic pundits believe negative rates can become a
permanent fixture, the logic fails the ‘smell test’.

According to a September 2015 IMF paper titled ‘A Strategy for Resolving
Europe’s Problem Loans’:

‘ European banks face significant challenges from their high levels of
impaired assets. The global financial crisis and subsequent recession
have left many countries with elevated levels of nonperforming loans
(NPLs). NPLs in the European Union (EU) stood at about €1 trillion (or
over 9 percent of the region’s GDP) at end-2014, more than double the
level in 2009. ’

Given the plight of Italian banks, it’s not a stretch to think the
amount of non-performing loans in Europe could be even higher these
days.

This is the definition from Investopedia of a non-performing loan:

‘ A non-performing loan (NPL) is the sum of borrowed money upon which
the debtor has not made their scheduled payments for at least 90 days. A
non-performing loan is either in default or close to being in default. ’

In the old days, we called these ‘bad debts’.

But in this upside-down world, calling things as they are is a definite
no-no.

Why have non-performing loans doubled since 2009 (especially when
interest rates — the cost of money — have been falling)?

Deflation.

Sorry, I can’t call it as it is. The official spin goes something along
the lines of ‘sluggish growth’.

Semantics.

To put €1 trillion into perspective, it is roughly $1.5 trillion…which
is pretty much the size of the Australian economy.

How did all these loans become non-performing?

Underlying economic activity did not produce sufficient revenues to
fulfil loan obligations. You lose your job, or have your income reduced,
or your business turnover slumps (deflates)…then you go to your bank and
tell the [him/her/transgender/cross-dresser] bank manager ‘you’re up
s**t creek without a paddle.’

90 days later, you are a non-performing loan statistics. Welcome to the
club.

The bank is in a bind. Recovering its money is not that easy. The
security offered is worth far less than the loan. Not only that, but if
all banks started selling the assets behind the distressed loans, asset
prices would be driven even lower. So the non-performing loans sit on
the books…waiting.

Waiting for what? Economic growth. When the elusive growth does
eventually appear, it’ll pick up revenues — incomes rise, profits
increase, outstanding loan commitments can be repaid. The ‘non’ can be
dropped, and performing loans become the order of the day.

Call me silly, but for growth to make a sudden and lasting appearance on
the economic stage, I’d have thought providing people with an income to
spend would’ve been somewhat crucial to that outcome. As I said, ‘call
me silly’.

And that’s where the quotes and headlines at the start feed into this
perplexing story.

The traditional bastion of secure income used to be the fixed interest
bond…backed by ratings agency credit scores like AAA, AA+ and so on.

Pension funds — with obligations to pay employee pensions for decades to
come — have traditionally invested in high quality bonds to provide a
portion of the return required to meet those ‘written in stone’
obligations. Tens of millions of people are relying on their pension
fund to come good with the promised payment each and every month during
their retirement.

To meet these obligations, the pension funds have two options available
— firstly, to generate a rate of return on current assets and/or
secondly, where those returns fall short of the projected level, the
employer is required to make up the shortfall.

This sounds simple enough, but with millions of fund members having
varying life expectancies and differing pension entitlements, this
creates a mathematical nightmare…especially with medical science
increasing our life spans with every passing decade AND central banks
decreasing the rates of return on offer from the traditional safe haven
investment used by pension funds.

Which is why headlines like this…

‘US faces ‘disastrous’ US$3.4tn pension funding hole - Collective
deficit of retirement plans is three times larger than official figures’
— Financial Times , 10 April, 2016

…and commentary like this…

‘ Many well-known companies, including BT Group [British Telecom] , the
telecoms company, and energy businesses Royal Dutch Shell and BP, have
pension deficits that run into the billions, according to LCP, the
pensions consultancy.’ — Financial Times , 3 January, 2016

…are finding their way into mainstream reporting.

Pension funds (the primary source of retirement income for tens of
millions of baby boomers) are woefully underfunded. The prospect of
having the money available to meet these obligations grows dimmer each
year.

Depending upon which report you read, the average pension fund, to
fulfil its obligations, needs a return of between 5% and 8% PER ANNUM —
that’s each and every year.

Government bonds paying MINUS rates of return obviously make achieving
that projected return that much harder. Hence the headline — ‘Fears
mount for pensions as gilt [UK government bond] yields touch negative
territory’.

So where do pension funds go to achieve the desired rate of return?
Shares, hedge funds, junk bonds, and private equity funds.

Given that each of these investment categories has a history of
shredding investor capital, there’s the very real prospect that pension
funds could find themselves sliding further down the greasy ‘rate of
return’ pole…making their task of paying the promised pensions even
harder.

The central banks have indeed served up a poisoned brew .

With millions and millions of boomer retirees faced with the prospect of
lower retirement incomes, there’s no way the much sought-after economic
growth is ever going to be realised.

Non-performing loans are going to fester on the banks’ books until the
open sore can no longer be covered up with Band-Aid measures.

Failing banks will then need to be bailed out by shareholder capital,
bond holders and depositors…all this shreds more investor capital.

The negative loop means pension funds then lose even more money on their
bank shares, bond holdings and cash deposits. Pension payments are
cut...and we repeat the exercise.

This upside-down world has sent a lot of blood rushing to the head of
central bankers, denying them the ability to think and act with any
clarity.

Which is why I think, after the next credit crisis, we’ll see some sort
of permanent ‘helicopter money’ program introduced.

More unintended consequences are definitely in our future.

Regards,

Vern Gowdie,

For The Daily Reckoning




From zen at freedbms.net  Fri Aug 12 17:32:42 2016
From: zen at freedbms.net (Zenaan Harkness)
Date: Sat, 13 Aug 2016 10:32:42 +1000
Subject: Going Dark - an unmentionable company blows law enforcement
Message-ID: <20160813003242.GB2293@x220-a02>

Cause for both cautious optimism - this might result in a competitive
market for 'full system' 'wholistic' encryption ecosystem - 



@pp13 at BlackHat: Reopening the "Going Dark" Debate
https://lawfareblog.com/apple-blackhat-reopening-going-dark-debate

(The author says some things which sound a bit messed up e.g. "Apple
built the very thing that they and the privacy community have been
saying for years is reckless, dangerous or impossible: a high-value
encryption key secured in a vault such that the key can’t be stolen or
misused by hackers or malicious insiders" - perhaps he's attempting to
obfuscate things, or perhaps his own mind is naturally obfuscated.)




From grarpamp at gmail.com  Sat Aug 13 11:21:27 2016
From: grarpamp at gmail.com (grarpamp)
Date: Sat, 13 Aug 2016 14:21:27 -0400
Subject: Bittorrent starting to move entirely within anonymous overlay nets
Message-ID: <CAD2Ti28Hx33DeRNVcnxrRr2ojLeURH066Q1M8GJ+f+5Yobp64Q@mail.gmail.com>

Общество шифропанков
http://vabu56j2ep2rwv3b.onion/
BitTorrent трэкер.
http://vabu56j2ep2rwv3b.onion/Tracker.html
Это одна из его установок которую вы можете использовать в своих torrent файлах.
http://xodv6rg4bvpfpcs7.onion:6969/announce




From juan.g71 at gmail.com  Sat Aug 13 13:02:18 2016
From: juan.g71 at gmail.com (juan)
Date: Sat, 13 Aug 2016 17:02:18 -0300
Subject: tor promises to be good*
In-Reply-To: <90B57D40-9B68-4559-BA34-922BFA6041AD@littledystopia.net>
References: <90B57D40-9B68-4559-BA34-922BFA6041AD@littledystopia.net>
Message-ID: <57af7ba8.8851370a.c9296.4629@mx.google.com>

On Thu, 11 Aug 2016 21:08:06 -0400
bbrewer <bbrewer at littledystopia.net> wrote:

> No worries, JUAN, they promise no backdoors…


	That's really nice of them. The security they provide is worse
	than mediocre, but they surely are masters of Newspeak. 



> (I’m with you on your
> design stance, btw)
> 
> https://blog.torproject.org/blog/tor-social-contract
> 
> "The Tor Social Contract
> Posted August 9th, 2016 by alison  in 
> 	• ethics
>  
> 	• human rights
>  
> 	• social contract
>




From juan.g71 at gmail.com  Sat Aug 13 14:35:41 2016
From: juan.g71 at gmail.com (juan)
Date: Sat, 13 Aug 2016 18:35:41 -0300
Subject: The only thing that tor supports is full censorship.
Message-ID: <57af918e.49a6370a.524fc.5fbd@mx.google.com>




	The only comments that appear in the corporation's blog are
	comments aproved by the censors. That means that absolutely all
	criticism against tor is filtered and the right to free speech
	of people who disagree with the tor mafia is non-existent. 

	What kind of users would trust an organization owned by the US
	military and completely unable to 'defend' 'free speech' in
	their onw fucking blog? 





From admin at pilobilus.net  Sat Aug 13 16:18:25 2016
From: admin at pilobilus.net (Steve Kinney)
Date: Sat, 13 Aug 2016 19:18:25 -0400
Subject: [WAR] Can Hillary Imagine the Global Nuclear Winter a First
 Strike on Russia Would Bring?
In-Reply-To: <20160813225511.GT2957@x220-a02>
References: <20160813225511.GT2957@x220-a02>
Message-ID: <748aa1ac-2cf9-2b35-5708-6477d1efde61@pilobilus.net>

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1



On 08/13/2016 06:55 PM, Zenaan Harkness wrote:
> Any other more relevant question for a potential president of the
> USA?
> 
> 
> 
> ** Can Hillary Imagine the Global Nuclear Winter a First Strike on
> Russia Would Bring?
> (http://russia-insider.us9.list-manage.com/track/click?u=fa2faf7034c3c
3c413cb3652f&id=cec24db5aa&e=5110f4b440)
>
> 
- ------------------------------------------------------------
> by William Wedin on Sat, Aug 13, 2016 Of course, not.

Our highly educated, socially aware Liberals and Progressives are very
good at looking the other way when that means protecting their
comfortable middle class lifestyles.  They are unreachable because
there really is a monster under their beds, or locked in the back
closet of their deepest subconscious cellars:  It's OK to endorse and
support a political system that murders children in other countries
for commercial gain, if that's what it takes to assure the future
financial security of your own children.

If they could face that monster they could beat it, but they won't
face it and that's final.  If they hear it thrashing around, all they
have to do to drown it out is to complain politely through the proper
channels and declare, "We did all we could do.  Some problems won't be
solved in our lifetimes."

Sleep well, little monsters.


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From bbrewer at littledystopia.net  Sat Aug 13 17:22:39 2016
From: bbrewer at littledystopia.net (bbrewer)
Date: Sat, 13 Aug 2016 20:22:39 -0400
Subject: tor promises to be good*
In-Reply-To: <20160812020027.GE2957@x220-a02>
References: <90B57D40-9B68-4559-BA34-922BFA6041AD@littledystopia.net>
 <20160812020027.GE2957@x220-a02>
Message-ID: <91B71C8F-7017-4F74-B958-24A5D68702D8@littledystopia.net>


> On Aug 11, 2016, at 10:00 PM, Zenaan Harkness <zen at freedbms.net> wrote:
> 
> Tor Inc. "Do 'no backdoors' evil" - gee, where did we hear -that-
> hollow 'promise' before?
> 
> <caugh>Google</splutter>

Absolutely, it is all BS. Difference is, google isn’t really ‘aiming’ at the crowd that really gives a crap about such things, vs where TOR is. I myself am completely owned by google; gmail since beta, and a FI user for nearing 6 months. I know and understand that they know *everything* about my life, perhaps better than I do — I figure as long as that is acknowledged, c’est la vie.

It’s a tradeoff…

Seems like TOR isn’t marketing towards those willing to ‘make those tradeoffs’, especially since their entire ‘service/product’ is the vague notion of being ‘invisible’ online.

While both seem to be fucking you in the ass, google isn’t really lying to your face. Besides, evil is all in the mind of the beholder.

sigh. you want privacy? Keep it in your head; or at least, keep it off the inter-basket, where all our eggs seem to collect.

-bbrewer

* written on my super sekure osx device. 
** not really secure.
*** fuck it.




From bbrewer at littledystopia.net  Sat Aug 13 18:05:07 2016
From: bbrewer at littledystopia.net (bbrewer)
Date: Sat, 13 Aug 2016 21:05:07 -0400
Subject: tor promises to be good*
In-Reply-To: <57afc022.8d26370a.7edd0.7995@mx.google.com>
References: <90B57D40-9B68-4559-BA34-922BFA6041AD@littledystopia.net>
 <20160812020027.GE2957@x220-a02>
 <91B71C8F-7017-4F74-B958-24A5D68702D8@littledystopia.net>
 <57afc022.8d26370a.7edd0.7995@mx.google.com>
Message-ID: <47DD35FE-0874-4F89-B88B-19735940077E@littledystopia.net>


> On Aug 13, 2016, at 8:54 PM, juan <juan.g71 at gmail.com> wrote:
> 
> On Sat, 13 Aug 2016 20:22:39 -0400
> bbrewer <bbrewer at littledystopia.net> wrote:
> 
> 
>> 
>> While both seem to be fucking you in the ass, google isn’t really
>> lying to your face.
> 
> 	Are you kidding?
> 

Not kidding; No one looked to google services for their privacy and protections, no? They subscribe to email, knowing they are read for ‘ads’, and knowing that no doubt, everything is logged and available at whatever ‘official’ request’. They look towards TOR for… almost the opposite. They *are* ‘selling’ protection.


> 
>> Besides, evil is all in the mind of the beholder.
> 
> 
> 	Oh fine. So all these discussions are pretty much meaningless.

Not meaningless at all; however, for *myself* the notion that TOR is screwing people over carries far more weight (and no surprise) than the notion of google screwing people over who were not explicitly seeking said ‘protections’.

*shrug*. Like you said, technology aside on the Micro level, the Macro level design of TOR provides ‘them’ all the protections with none of the liability. How others do not understand this is beyond my ‘scope’, if you will.




From juan.g71 at gmail.com  Sat Aug 13 17:54:25 2016
From: juan.g71 at gmail.com (juan)
Date: Sat, 13 Aug 2016 21:54:25 -0300
Subject: tor promises to be good*
In-Reply-To: <91B71C8F-7017-4F74-B958-24A5D68702D8@littledystopia.net>
References: <90B57D40-9B68-4559-BA34-922BFA6041AD@littledystopia.net>
 <20160812020027.GE2957@x220-a02>
 <91B71C8F-7017-4F74-B958-24A5D68702D8@littledystopia.net>
Message-ID: <57afc022.8d26370a.7edd0.7995@mx.google.com>

On Sat, 13 Aug 2016 20:22:39 -0400
bbrewer <bbrewer at littledystopia.net> wrote:


> 
> While both seem to be fucking you in the ass, google isn’t really
> lying to your face.

	Are you kidding?


> Besides, evil is all in the mind of the beholder.


	Oh fine. So all these discussions are pretty much meaningless.

> 
> sigh. you want privacy? Keep it in your head; or at least, keep it
> off the inter-basket, where all our eggs seem to collect.
> 
> -bbrewer
> 
> * written on my super sekure osx device. 
> ** not really secure.
> *** fuck it.





From admin at pilobilus.net  Sat Aug 13 19:56:17 2016
From: admin at pilobilus.net (Steve Kinney)
Date: Sat, 13 Aug 2016 22:56:17 -0400
Subject: Anarchist Bibliography, please? (was Re: Deconstructing an
 Institutional Slander...)
In-Reply-To: <57a3de1b.4224c80a.8c9df.fc61@mx.google.com>
References: <CAG2tMp6-KfNr0VgiddoLxHcHw6CzyU=uLJCdCsvo9EsBE8gTeQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAG2tMp512JL9-6r+6Cgqp5n__Aa49WCPv+UmrKmAT7OXP7xwvg@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAG2tMp5dWWyBcRUmO8EEoUjPZLGnBqBCX-B8mpzKKNsGsGWhUg@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAG2tMp7R2Lo0RN11qkC_iC9-4=2gHzpbcZEOoLtRFkCJ6Cf_KA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAG2tMp70VXbY+0GJs3HApMq71TcBympeLg3QUuDDdHwmC6Cqwg@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAG2tMp4=q0aFUjcS8Gei2J9FqYfQnsWg0E5Vh_OtGjVuJ-_V0Q@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAG2tMp55nML9+v0hnLVfe+OqPsCMUNiB66FR-VjmTn3pkGSTRw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAG2tMp7M3BpOUOcv6fkOYK=cYvYCWmg3nFrL8QSGBF0JPr5pjg@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAG2tMp5A5AxiYHR4JQ-ECFCy80nsa8-xxYw5gs5vMEfHtHKRgg@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAG2tMp4HdMnuXO7K5OvAie1+f1bsU5_iDg-nEcy=PTvJfV+XFA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAG2tMp6sd1r-FwLWd2SmQTQ-JJJpCPyU9hDKKKkew8symGGtJQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAG2tMp5CmWA9rzgwDpe9XDYbOcKooAq15PrDD1UtorcnPZo--Q@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAG2tMp5VUSFrJJXVXU35VBkY4trmH8K+7yECpnQAvfX7iRF3qQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <57a3de1b.4224c80a.8c9df.fc61@mx.google.com>
Message-ID: <2decf022-f46a-60f2-5c8e-997100d488d1@pilobilus.net>

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1



On 08/04/2016 08:34 PM, juan wrote:

> I can recommend stuff I like and I know is good, but there may be 
> other good stuff I don't know and am missing. Anyway, having done 
> the limited-liability, standard disclaimer...

Just snarfed 'em all and thank you very much.

:o)



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From admin at pilobilus.net  Sat Aug 13 20:32:27 2016
From: admin at pilobilus.net (Steve Kinney)
Date: Sat, 13 Aug 2016 23:32:27 -0400
Subject: [WAR] Hillary Clinton, an MK Ultra drone, struggles with her
 programming
In-Reply-To: <CAHKdp-mqO6p=s_9AjKtZzda3xxPLmzuF6jHre_kO_rA6E0wmLw@mail.gmail.com>
References: <20160810000550.GA6767@x220-a02>
 <CAHKdp-mqO6p=s_9AjKtZzda3xxPLmzuF6jHre_kO_rA6E0wmLw@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <a6a1fb00-90ad-7058-507e-cb995a178170@pilobilus.net>

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1

On 08/10/2016 04:06 PM, Sean Lynch wrote:

> There are plenty of legitimate criticisms of Clinton. This is not 
> one of them. This is literal FUD.

Yup:  Any source who says MKULTRA but means "mind control"
self-disqualifies from serious attention.  I just pull the plug and
move on.  Compare the case of someone who says "anarchy" but means
"riots and looting."

I tell myself that anyone who studies Conspiracy Theory for decades
will end up very grumpy and judgmental, not paranoid, because that's
what it has done to me.  At least that's how I respond when I am
confronted by "Conspiracy Cult Belief," which is a whole 'nother
animal, cultivated by the same sort of folks who fielded the original
MIB and for the same purpose.

The truth is out there.  Out there far enough it doesn't take much
chaff and misdirection to obscure it completely.

:o/




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From admin at pilobilus.net  Sat Aug 13 20:56:14 2016
From: admin at pilobilus.net (Steve Kinney)
Date: Sat, 13 Aug 2016 23:56:14 -0400
Subject: DDoSCoin: Proof of malicious work
Message-ID: <1881c970-c4e0-d1d0-620c-df801a8503d8@pilobilus.net>

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1

Oh fuck.  Time to advance the Digital Doomsday Clock.  How many days
past midnight was it yesterday?

https://www.usenix.org/conference/woot16/workshop-program/presentation/w
ustrow

or

https://tinyurl.com/ddoscoin

"In this paper, we present DDoSCoin, which is a cryptocurrency with a
malicious proof-of-work. DDoSCoin allows miners to prove that they
have contributed to a distributed denial of service attack against
specific target servers. This proof involves making a large number of
TLS connections to a target server, and using cryptographic responses
to prove that a large number of connections has been made. Like
proof-of-work puzzles, these proofs are inexpensive to verify, and can
be made arbitrarily difficult to solve."

CliffNotes version:

http://www.theregister.co.uk/2016/08/12/ddoscoin_cryptocurrency/

:o)



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From admin at pilobilus.net  Sat Aug 13 23:21:20 2016
From: admin at pilobilus.net (Steve Kinney)
Date: Sun, 14 Aug 2016 02:21:20 -0400
Subject: [WAR] Hillary Clinton, an MK Ultra drone, struggles with her
 programming
In-Reply-To: <a6a1fb00-90ad-7058-507e-cb995a178170@pilobilus.net>
References: <20160810000550.GA6767@x220-a02>
 <CAHKdp-mqO6p=s_9AjKtZzda3xxPLmzuF6jHre_kO_rA6E0wmLw@mail.gmail.com>
 <a6a1fb00-90ad-7058-507e-cb995a178170@pilobilus.net>
Message-ID: <643298b2-ee7b-15da-dd90-ddb48428ee79@pilobilus.net>

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1



On 08/13/2016 11:32 PM, Steve Kinney wrote:
> On 08/10/2016 04:06 PM, Sean Lynch wrote:
> 
>> There are plenty of legitimate criticisms of Clinton. This is
>> not one of them. This is literal FUD.
> 
> Yup:  Any source who says MKULTRA but means "mind control" 
> self-disqualifies from serious attention.  I just pull the plug
> and move on.  Compare the case of someone who says "anarchy" but
> means "riots and looting."

Hum.  Zen pointed out that the language in question was not actually
in the article he posted, and I went and looked at it.

It's not exactly a stellar analysis, but the article does raise a very
real issue I have been keeping an eye on myself - to the point of
in-depth fact checking certain "debunking" assertions and finding them
to be bunk themselves:  Clinton did not "slip on ice" going up those
steps as shown in the Reuters photo, according to local weather
records for the day in question.  Why did her people find it necessary
to lie about that?

Is something seriously wrong with Hillary's brain, other than the
obvious psychosis?  I am about 90% confident that she is presenting
with intermittent symptoms of a serious neurological disorder,
possibly secondary to circulatory system problems.

That, or somebody has a voodoo doll that really works.

http://theduran.com/hillary-clinton-dizzy-blackout-spell-during-speech-f
ocuses-attention-on-her-true-health/

:o)

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From grarpamp at gmail.com  Sun Aug 14 02:06:39 2016
From: grarpamp at gmail.com (grarpamp)
Date: Sun, 14 Aug 2016 05:06:39 -0400
Subject: Bittorrent starting to move entirely within anonymous overlay nets
In-Reply-To: <CAD2Ti28Hx33DeRNVcnxrRr2ojLeURH066Q1M8GJ+f+5Yobp64Q@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAD2Ti28Hx33DeRNVcnxrRr2ojLeURH066Q1M8GJ+f+5Yobp64Q@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAD2Ti29sEQrXYgtC-T0Du0pwM4R7ViMLHB8qBJ=n_7PvdxM5ag@mail.gmail.com>

> Users who just had all their favourite bittorren trackers shut down

To survive political will to crush them, encrypted overlay / messaging
networks need mass popular usage in the millions of people and up.
That's traditionally come from email, social nets, torrenting / file / web
services, video, and chat. While overlay nets are certainly not currently
immune to GPA's and such, they're reasonably ok for more benign uses,
and the above uses and users are growing within those nets.
In the example of copyright holders grokking their BT client for
IP's and hashes to send to ISP's and courts... those trolls are going
to have a *much* harder time trying to shut .i2p's and .onion's,
and especially users of decentralized p2p model client apps
over overlay nets.




From bwdch19gksdcwb1 at sigaint.org  Sun Aug 14 00:06:33 2016
From: bwdch19gksdcwb1 at sigaint.org (bwdch19gksdcwb1)
Date: Sun, 14 Aug 2016 07:06:33 -0000
Subject: prenez garde!
Message-ID: <cb6637dee98bc3624e3e9eb9b6785921.webmail@localhost>

I write from open-air prison.

Forced to labor.

To slavery.

Tracked with number.

Threatened for death.

My words have silenced.

7(A)175 building has compromized.





From jya at pipeline.com  Sun Aug 14 05:08:56 2016
From: jya at pipeline.com (John Young)
Date: Sun, 14 Aug 2016 08:08:56 -0400
Subject: Bittorrent starting to move entirely within anonymous overlay nets
In-Reply-To: <20160814114800.GB892@sivokote.iziade.m$>
References: <CAD2Ti28Hx33DeRNVcnxrRr2ojLeURH066Q1M8GJ+f+5Yobp64Q@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAD2Ti29sEQrXYgtC-T0Du0pwM4R7ViMLHB8qBJ=n_7PvdxM5ag@mail.gmail.com>
 <20160814114800.GB892@sivokote.iziade.m$>
Message-ID: <E1bYuDI-0005qT-CQ@elasmtp-junco.atl.sa.earthlink.net>


Giving porn downloaders false sense of security doesn't help technically
>illiterate users seeking anonymity. Especially when the "anonymity" is
>provided by the murican military. The onions write in "small print"
>they are useless, but this is not enough IMHO. The onions MUST make the
>luser type at least 2 times "I realize this is not anonymous enough
>against TLAs".

Excellent recommendation. Should apply to privacy policies and crypto,
anything to do with whistleblowing, leaks, secure drops, transparency,
openness, comsec, infosec and especially natsec and secrecy, the
two greatest threats to all the others.

Coordinated secrecy by gov-com-edu-ngo will continue to be the
most horrendous fundamentalist religion and most profitable
exploit online and off.

Back there hung-over snoozers, wake up and pay attention.







From zen at freedbms.net  Sat Aug 13 15:44:12 2016
From: zen at freedbms.net (Zenaan Harkness)
Date: Sun, 14 Aug 2016 08:44:12 +1000
Subject: The only thing that tor supports is full censorship.
In-Reply-To: <57af918e.49a6370a.524fc.5fbd@mx.google.com>
References: <57af918e.49a6370a.524fc.5fbd@mx.google.com>
Message-ID: <20160813224412.GR2957@x220-a02>

On Sat, Aug 13, 2016 at 06:35:41PM -0300, juan wrote:
> 	The only comments that appear in the corporation's blog are
> 	comments aproved by the censors. That means that absolutely all
> 	criticism against tor is filtered and the right to free speech
> 	of people who disagree with the tor mafia is non-existent. 
> 
> 	What kind of users would trust an organization owned by the US
> 	military and completely unable to 'defend' 'free speech' in
> 	their onw fucking blog? 

Users who just had all their favourite bittorren trackers shut down
perhaps?




From zen at freedbms.net  Sat Aug 13 15:48:57 2016
From: zen at freedbms.net (Zenaan Harkness)
Date: Sun, 14 Aug 2016 08:48:57 +1000
Subject: tor promises to be good*
In-Reply-To: <57af7ba8.8851370a.c9296.4629@mx.google.com>
References: <90B57D40-9B68-4559-BA34-922BFA6041AD@littledystopia.net>
 <57af7ba8.8851370a.c9296.4629@mx.google.com>
Message-ID: <20160813224857.GS2957@x220-a02>

On Sat, Aug 13, 2016 at 05:02:18PM -0300, juan wrote:
> On Thu, 11 Aug 2016 21:08:06 -0400
> bbrewer <bbrewer at littledystopia.net> wrote:
> 
> > No worries, JUAN, they promise no backdoors…
> 
> 
> 	That's really nice of them. The security they provide is worse
> 	than mediocre, but they surely are masters of Newspeak. 

Look, they might not have the ultimate security, but at least they
tolerate criticism on their own communication forums thereby supporting
a balanced comprehension by new comers.

Oh .. wait ...



> > (I’m with you on your
> > design stance, btw)
> > 
> > https://blog.torproject.org/blog/tor-social-contract
> > 
> > "The Tor Social Contract
> > Posted August 9th, 2016 by alison  in 
> > 	• ethics
> >  
> > 	• human rights
> >  
> > 	• social contract
> >




From zen at freedbms.net  Sat Aug 13 15:55:12 2016
From: zen at freedbms.net (Zenaan Harkness)
Date: Sun, 14 Aug 2016 08:55:12 +1000
Subject: [WAR] Can Hillary Imagine the Global Nuclear Winter a First Strike
 on Russia Would Bring?
Message-ID: <20160813225511.GT2957@x220-a02>

Any other more relevant question for a potential president of the USA?



** Can Hillary Imagine the Global Nuclear Winter a First Strike on Russia Would Bring? (http://russia-insider.us9.list-manage.com/track/click?u=fa2faf7034c3c3c413cb3652f&id=cec24db5aa&e=5110f4b440)
------------------------------------------------------------
by William Wedin on Sat, Aug 13, 2016
Of course, not. No more than she was able to think beyond the moment of her own Satanic triumph when she learned on air that Gaddafi had just been raped to death with a bayonet by her loyal terrorists and proclaimed: "We came. We saw. He DIED.The way she laughs so demonically. Does she not seem possessed?Hillary doesn't care what death and destruction and immense human suffering may result from her terrorists' actions. She thinks only of how big is her bayonet.Hail, Caesar.How she longs to touch "her" Red Button. What a surge she would feel.
Read more » (http://russia-insider.us9.list-manage1.com/track/click?u=fa2faf7034c3c3c413cb3652f&id=158bfb176c&e=5110f4b440)
http://russia-insider.us9.list-manage.com/track/click?u=fa2faf7034c3c3c413cb3652f&id=c4803c7aca&e=5110f4b440 http://russia-insider.us9.list-manage.com/track/click?u=fa2faf7034c3c3c413cb3652f&id=49d4b788af&e=5110f4b440.
Back to table of content (#top)




From guninski at guninski.com  Sun Aug 14 00:36:42 2016
From: guninski at guninski.com (Georgi Guninski)
Date: Sun, 14 Aug 2016 10:36:42 +0300
Subject: Exploit prices are rising
Message-ID: <20160814073641.GA892@sivokote.iziade.m$>

http://www.theregister.co.uk/2016/08/11/exodus_intelligence_500k_bounty/

Apple offers up to $200K "for major flaws in iOS".

Exodus offers up to $500K for the same.

Probably there is a marketing catch in "up to".

Likely on the black market prices are higher.

IIRC Some leaked Hacking Team emails suggest "exploit brokers" are 
reselling sploits for $100K per sploit (and possibly higher).




From cecilia.tanaka at gmail.com  Sun Aug 14 07:09:00 2016
From: cecilia.tanaka at gmail.com (Cecilia Tanaka)
Date: Sun, 14 Aug 2016 11:09:00 -0300
Subject: Anarchist Bibliography, please? (was Re: Deconstructing an
 Institutional Slander...)
In-Reply-To: <CAG2tMp5txzXKY-cs28VYEC7dY3+1C5iJ+Z7R96yN8p=Lzgeq_A@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAG2tMp55nML9+v0hnLVfe+OqPsCMUNiB66FR-VjmTn3pkGSTRw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAG2tMp7M3BpOUOcv6fkOYK=cYvYCWmg3nFrL8QSGBF0JPr5pjg@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAG2tMp5A5AxiYHR4JQ-ECFCy80nsa8-xxYw5gs5vMEfHtHKRgg@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAG2tMp4HdMnuXO7K5OvAie1+f1bsU5_iDg-nEcy=PTvJfV+XFA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAG2tMp6sd1r-FwLWd2SmQTQ-JJJpCPyU9hDKKKkew8symGGtJQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAG2tMp5CmWA9rzgwDpe9XDYbOcKooAq15PrDD1UtorcnPZo--Q@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAG2tMp5VUSFrJJXVXU35VBkY4trmH8K+7yECpnQAvfX7iRF3qQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <20160809194322.GA24863@synfin.org> <770311470819794@web20h.yandex.ru>
 <7b8410ac-c780-1d5e-e074-672c9160bfaf@pilobilus.net>
 <20160811154619.GA2957@x220-a02>
 <1901740634.15491731.1470940533090.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com>
 <CAG2tMp5txzXKY-cs28VYEC7dY3+1C5iJ+Z7R96yN8p=Lzgeq_A@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAG2tMp4CQV8B2OE+4AF1sPRmnTWY35d_-KavWsfb_Hpb7wL_fw@mail.gmail.com>

Thank you for all who sent me musics in private.  It was very sweet!  <3

I love music.  It warms my heart and  - wow! -  there are zillions of
beautiful musics in the world that I never heard before.  :D

Sorry, I confess I asked for "help" just to renew a bit my soundtrack,
haha!  ;)

A beautiful music to wish you all an excellent day!  <3

I really love Ed Sheeran's cover of Bob Dylan's protest song "Masters of
War".  The lyrics are very powerful, really beautiful and intense.  I love
this song.

<http://youtu.be/aHMlAYeFeYw>

"Masters Of War"  (Bob Dylan)

Come you masters of war
You that build all the guns
You that build the death planes
You that build all the bombs
You that hide behind walls
You that hide behind desks
I just want you to know
I can see through your masks.

You that never done nothin'
But build to destroy
You play with my world
Like it's your little toy
You put a gun in my hand
And you hide from my eyes
And you turn and run farther
When the fast bullets fly.

Like Judas of old
You lie and deceive
A world war can be won
You want me to believe
But I see through your eyes
And I see through your brain
Like I see through the water
That runs down my drain.

You fasten all the triggers
For the others to fire
Then you set back and watch
When the death count gets higher
You hide in your mansion'
As young people's blood
Flows out of their bodies
And is buried in the mud.

You've thrown the worst fear
That can ever be hurled
Fear to bring children
Into the world
For threatening my baby
Unborn and unnamed
You ain't worth the blood
That runs in your veins.

How much do I know
To talk out of turn
You might say that I'm young
You might say I'm unlearned
But there's one thing I know
Though I'm younger than you
That even Jesus would never
Forgive what you do.

Let me ask you one question
Is your money that good
Will it buy you forgiveness
Do you think that it could
I think you will find
When your death takes its toll
All the money you made
Will never buy back your soul.

And I hope that you die
And your death'll come soon
I will follow your casket
In the pale afternoon
And I'll watch while you're lowered
Down to your deathbed
And I'll stand over your grave
'Til I'm sure that you're dead.
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From guninski at guninski.com  Sun Aug 14 04:48:00 2016
From: guninski at guninski.com (Georgi Guninski)
Date: Sun, 14 Aug 2016 14:48:00 +0300
Subject: Bittorrent starting to move entirely within anonymous overlay nets
In-Reply-To: <CAD2Ti29sEQrXYgtC-T0Du0pwM4R7ViMLHB8qBJ=n_7PvdxM5ag@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAD2Ti28Hx33DeRNVcnxrRr2ojLeURH066Q1M8GJ+f+5Yobp64Q@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAD2Ti29sEQrXYgtC-T0Du0pwM4R7ViMLHB8qBJ=n_7PvdxM5ag@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <20160814114800.GB892@sivokote.iziade.m$>

On Sun, Aug 14, 2016 at 05:06:39AM -0400, grarpamp wrote:
> > Users who just had all their favourite bittorren trackers shut down
...
> IP's and hashes to send to ISP's and courts... those trolls are going
> to have a *much* harder time trying to shut .i2p's and .onion's,

Trolling about .onions, don't know about .i2ps.

Giving porn downloaders false sense of security doesn't help technically
illiterate users seeking anonymity. Especially when the "anonymity" is
provided by the murican military. The onions write in "small print"
they are useless, but this is not enough IMHO. The onions MUST make the
luser type at least 2 times "I realize this is not anonymous enough
against TLAs".






From grarpamp at gmail.com  Sun Aug 14 12:13:46 2016
From: grarpamp at gmail.com (grarpamp)
Date: Sun, 14 Aug 2016 15:13:46 -0400
Subject: Bittorrent starting to move entirely within anonymous overlay nets
In-Reply-To: <E1bYuDI-0005qT-CQ@elasmtp-junco.atl.sa.earthlink.net>
References: <CAD2Ti28Hx33DeRNVcnxrRr2ojLeURH066Q1M8GJ+f+5Yobp64Q@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAD2Ti29sEQrXYgtC-T0Du0pwM4R7ViMLHB8qBJ=n_7PvdxM5ag@mail.gmail.com>
 <20160814114800.GB892@sivokote.iziade.m$>
 <E1bYuDI-0005qT-CQ@elasmtp-junco.atl.sa.earthlink.net>
Message-ID: <CAD2Ti2-eXOTDLDf7iA1XuC9ORL8HkFuOxYdDRxsKTh8U-H_tiQ@mail.gmail.com>

On 8/14/16, John Young <jya at pipeline.com> wrote:
> Georgi:
>> Giving porn downloaders false sense of security doesn't help technically
>>illiterate users seeking anonymity. Especially when the "anonymity" is
>>provided by the murican military. The onions write in "small print"
>>they are useless, but this is not enough IMHO. The onions MUST make the
>>luser type at least 2 times "I realize this is not anonymous enough
>>against TLAs".

TLA's are not generally active adversaries of the average illiterate [porn]
filesharer / torrenter and TV watcher. Once they get off their couch,
get a job, school, free thought, ideas, and even influence... yes, perhaps
they're a blip somewhere. Nor are TLA's, because secrecy, active peers
of copyright trolls. Till then, to the extent they're not completely bare assed
to the wind like clearnet... I2P Tor and whatever else are reasonably
alternative network layers for torrenters etc to play in. Besides, if you
hate Tor and want to see it die, might as well test Tor's dire theory
that torrenting will kill it ;-)

> Coordinated secrecy by gov-com-edu-ngo will continue to be the
> most horrendous fundamentalist religion and most profitable
> exploit online and off.

There's a reason why many people are poor, forced waste is one of them.
That sucks and needs fixed... cypherpunks go to parliament.




From admin at pilobilus.net  Sun Aug 14 13:49:36 2016
From: admin at pilobilus.net (Steve Kinney)
Date: Sun, 14 Aug 2016 16:49:36 -0400
Subject: tor promises to be good*
In-Reply-To: <90B57D40-9B68-4559-BA34-922BFA6041AD@littledystopia.net>
References: <90B57D40-9B68-4559-BA34-922BFA6041AD@littledystopia.net>
Message-ID: <6c51b916-2771-cbfa-2cc1-134a76d99c79@pilobilus.net>

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Hash: SHA1

On 08/11/2016 09:08 PM, bbrewer wrote:
> No worries, JUAN, they promise no backdoors… (I’m with you on your
> design stance, btw)
> 
> https://blog.torproject.org/blog/tor-social-contract
> 
> "The Tor Social Contract Posted August 9th, 2016 by alison  in •
> ethics
> 
> • human rights
> 
> • social contract
> 
> At The Tor Project, we make tools that help promote and protect the
> essential human rights of people everywhere. We have a set of
> guiding principles that make that possible, but for a long time,
> those principles were more or less unspoken. In order to ensure
> that project members build a Tor that reflects the commitment to
> our ideals, we've taken a cue from our friends at Debian and
> written the Tor Social Contract -- the set of principles that show
> who we are and why we make Tor. Our social contract is a set of
> behaviors and goals: not just the promised results we want for our
> community, but the ways we seek to achieve them.

[ etc ]

As a QA and document control guy, I can't read something like that
without processing it like this:

"We are committed to transparency; therefore, everything we release is
open and our development happens in the open. Whenever feasible, we
will continue to make our source code, binaries, and claims about them
open to independent verification. In the extremely rare cases where
open development would undermine the security of our users, we will be
especially vigilant in our peer review by project members."

Translation:  We believe in and practice an open, accountable
development process, except when we don't.  The public is allowed to
see how TOR works, except when the public is not allowed to see how
TOR works.  Trust us, what you don't know won't hurt you.

"We are not just people who build software, but ambassadors for online
freedom. We want everybody in the world to understand that their human
rights -- particularly their rights to free speech, freedom to access
information, and privacy -- can be preserved when they use the Internet.
"

Edit to include:  The TOR project believes in human rights, except the
rights of persons accused of crimes to be held innocent until proven
guilty, and to publicly confront their accusers in a neutral, public
Court.  The TOR Project believes in and exercises the rights of
risk-averse employers to discipline and discharge victims of malicious
office gossip and/or anonymous denunciation as an expedient conflict
resolution method.

"We never intentionally mislead our users nor misrepresent the
capabilities of the tools, nor the potential risks associated with
using them. Every user should be free to make an informed decision
about whether they should use a particular tool and how they should
use it."

Edit to include:  "The TOR Browser ships with NoScript installed but
disabled.  Users must enable it themselves to obtain protection
against de-anonymization at will by any malicious or compromised
website.  We do this as a convenience for naive users who may not
understand what NoScript is or what it does."

With TOR, one can have exactly as much "freedom and security" as one
can steal.  Just like real life.

:o/



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From grarpamp at gmail.com  Sun Aug 14 20:31:18 2016
From: grarpamp at gmail.com (grarpamp)
Date: Sun, 14 Aug 2016 23:31:18 -0400
Subject: [WAR] Hillary Clinton, an MK Ultra drone,
 struggles with her programming
In-Reply-To: <643298b2-ee7b-15da-dd90-ddb48428ee79@pilobilus.net>
References: <20160810000550.GA6767@x220-a02>
 <CAHKdp-mqO6p=s_9AjKtZzda3xxPLmzuF6jHre_kO_rA6E0wmLw@mail.gmail.com>
 <a6a1fb00-90ad-7058-507e-cb995a178170@pilobilus.net>
 <643298b2-ee7b-15da-dd90-ddb48428ee79@pilobilus.net>
Message-ID: <CAD2Ti2-UYH4KtpUHpSmudBi-UoKJwixMSMHzL=jgFhi7mYWYTA@mail.gmail.com>

On 8/14/16, Steve Kinney <admin at pilobilus.net> wrote:
> to be bunk themselves:  Clinton did not "slip on ice" going up those
> Why did her people find it necessary
> to lie about that?
>
> Is something seriously wrong with Hillary's brain, other than the
> obvious psychosis?  I am about 90% confident that she is presenting
> with intermittent symptoms of a serious neurological disorder,
> possibly secondary to circulatory system problems.

That happens when you keep delegating your country
to career politicians as if the job was some kind
of gratuity for long since useless ones that never left.
Wisdom is one thing, failure to terminate political dynasties
is another, even 15% election swings due to good are not worth
that failure, yet you still tolerate it under bad sub 5% electioneered
outcomes. There's also a reason for phrase "retirement age".
You'd be better served paying to put them in beach home than
continuing let them call govt home and taking your pay.

And props to cryptome for their "protect" series, demonstrating
anyone needing an army of secrets to protect themselves
must be quite disliked by many and standing on very
"slippery" ground paved with "lies".




From grarpamp at gmail.com  Sun Aug 14 20:45:46 2016
From: grarpamp at gmail.com (grarpamp)
Date: Sun, 14 Aug 2016 23:45:46 -0400
Subject: NSA TS REL NZ GCSB... Fiji, Fullman, Dotcom...
Message-ID: <CAD2Ti2-Si2f7_RZUtsPVO=tTuLGDoYyC4XXZ8mR4nGRnH-Nuow@mail.gmail.com>

https://theintercept.com/2016/08/14/nsa-gcsb-prism-surveillance-fullman-fiji/
https://www.tvnz.co.nz/one-news/new-zealand/special-investigation-inside-one-siss-biggest-anti-terrorism-operations
http://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=10876424

2016-08-15T02:11:29+00:00

Tony Fullman is a middle-aged former tax man and a pro-democracy
activist. But four years ago, a botched operation launched by New
Zealand spies meant he suddenly found himself deemed a potential
terrorist — his passport was revoked, his home was raided, and he was
placed on a top-secret National Security Agency surveillance list.

The extraordinary covert operation, revealed Sunday by Television New
Zealand in collaboration with The Intercept, was launched in 2012
after New Zealand authorities believed they had identified a group
planning to violently overthrow Fiji’s military regime.





From grarpamp at gmail.com  Sun Aug 14 21:15:54 2016
From: grarpamp at gmail.com (grarpamp)
Date: Mon, 15 Aug 2016 00:15:54 -0400
Subject: Swedish warrant for Wikileaks' Assange cancelled
Message-ID: <CAD2Ti29kzjeu3Qa+iV3aaY-utcH8FwRMKGsG=VXUYvyUqapx-Q@mail.gmail.com>

http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-11049316
http://www.telesurtv.net/english/news/4-Years-Later-Sweden-Accepts-Ecuadors-Offer-to-Hear-Assange-20160810-0039.html
https://twitter.com/wikileaks

Sweden has cancelled an arrest warrant for Wikileaks founder Julian Assange.
The Swedish Prosecution Authority website said the chief prosecutor
had come to the decision that Mr Assange was not suspected.




From grarpamp at gmail.com  Mon Aug 15 00:53:27 2016
From: grarpamp at gmail.com (grarpamp)
Date: Mon, 15 Aug 2016 03:53:27 -0400
Subject: Cost Of Storage By NSA / Corp
Message-ID: <CAD2Ti291=L7JswG1YK5HXNraqFDTYBkFfF4a80TdGhGcLn_DVA@mail.gmail.com>

http://www.mkomo.com/cost-per-gigabyte
http://ns1758.ca/winch/winchest.html
http://www.newegg.com/

Don't forget "government" pricing models,
whatever that may mean.

For Jim, who may have last mentioned storage in a post.
And all.




From grarpamp at gmail.com  Mon Aug 15 02:01:50 2016
From: grarpamp at gmail.com (grarpamp)
Date: Mon, 15 Aug 2016 05:01:50 -0400
Subject: DDoSCoin: Proof of malicious work
In-Reply-To: <CAN9H=iJAvMv6GQEsiX3amKOSb4zpucFKtC02AbVr8WJYvEWMLA@mail.gmail.com>
References: <1881c970-c4e0-d1d0-620c-df801a8503d8@pilobilus.net>
 <566351471237372@web18j.yandex.ru>
 <CAN9H=iJAvMv6GQEsiX3amKOSb4zpucFKtC02AbVr8WJYvEWMLA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAD2Ti28isdw0+F4qsiF19S3rkfsBAB4pMT1vrqKLpU=6Q1P=CQ@mail.gmail.com>

On 8/15/16, Jason McVetta <jason.mcvetta at gmail.com> wrote:
> DDOS is a, hitherto clumsy, weapon.  Potentially this technology allows
> financial incentivization and thus coordination of attacks.  We can imagine
> that like most technologies it could be put to good or to evil use.

Wait... so if I "d"dos ISIS and whoever else... I won't go to jail and
will get rich?




From bastianifortress at yandex.com  Sun Aug 14 22:02:52 2016
From: bastianifortress at yandex.com (Bastiani Fortress)
Date: Mon, 15 Aug 2016 07:02:52 +0200
Subject: DDoSCoin: Proof of malicious work
In-Reply-To: <1881c970-c4e0-d1d0-620c-df801a8503d8@pilobilus.net>
References: <1881c970-c4e0-d1d0-620c-df801a8503d8@pilobilus.net>
Message-ID: <566351471237372@web18j.yandex.ru>

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From afalex169 at gmail.com  Sun Aug 14 21:23:03 2016
From: afalex169 at gmail.com (=?UTF-8?B?0JDQu9C10LrRgdCw0L3QtNGA?=)
Date: Mon, 15 Aug 2016 07:23:03 +0300
Subject: tor promises to be good*
In-Reply-To: <20160815000714.GA18278@x220-a02>
References: <90B57D40-9B68-4559-BA34-922BFA6041AD@littledystopia.net>
 <6c51b916-2771-cbfa-2cc1-134a76d99c79@pilobilus.net>
 <20160815000714.GA18278@x220-a02>
Message-ID: <CAEm6KbJqza5ZFSKOkkD2WB4=-YqueRYLUkqYpbOtEio3d7tMEA@mail.gmail.com>

Steve,
Thank you very much for taking time writing this "clarification" to the
folks who still (might) trust the tor mafia.
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From bastianifortress at yandex.com  Mon Aug 15 00:18:57 2016
From: bastianifortress at yandex.com (Bastiani Fortress)
Date: Mon, 15 Aug 2016 09:18:57 +0200
Subject: PascalCoin?
Message-ID: <709401471245537@web18o.yandex.ru>

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From zen at freedbms.net  Sun Aug 14 17:07:14 2016
From: zen at freedbms.net (Zenaan Harkness)
Date: Mon, 15 Aug 2016 10:07:14 +1000
Subject: tor promises to be good*
In-Reply-To: <6c51b916-2771-cbfa-2cc1-134a76d99c79@pilobilus.net>
References: <90B57D40-9B68-4559-BA34-922BFA6041AD@littledystopia.net>
 <6c51b916-2771-cbfa-2cc1-134a76d99c79@pilobilus.net>
Message-ID: <20160815000714.GA18278@x220-a02>

On Sun, Aug 14, 2016 at 04:49:36PM -0400, Steve Kinney wrote:
> On 08/11/2016 09:08 PM, bbrewer wrote:
> > written the Tor Social Contract -- the set of principles that show
> > who we are and why we make Tor. Our social contract is a set of
> > behaviors and goals: not just the promised results we want for our
> > community, but the ways we seek to achieve them.
> 
> As a QA and document control guy, I can't read something like that
> without processing it like this:
> 
> "We are committed to transparency; therefore, everything we release is
> open and our development happens in the open. Whenever feasible, we
> will continue to make our source code, binaries, and claims about them
> open to independent verification. In the extremely rare cases where
> open development would undermine the security of our users, we will be
> especially vigilant in our peer review by project members."

It's even worse - that last sentence above could easily be read as
follows (thanks for the mindset, Juan :) - "In rare cases, open
development does undermine the security of our users (those who actually
need Tor against TLAs, and all our open development lulling those lusers
into a belief in safety which does not exist) and in these rare cases
(which are the only ones we should be worrying about) we will be
especially vigilant in our open development and peer review to work
extra hard at bamboozling folks and fulling all our masters requirements
for next version, and thereby avoiding those things which may actually
help those who actually need Tor to actually do something effective with
it besides sharing our Hollowood propaganda".

(This one time, I had a weird moment of having read the (Tor propaganda)
paragraph above as though it was your (Steve) 'response to Tor
propaganda' - then, this one time, I read your next para below and said
"what?!!"  Then, I shoved a light bulb up my brain, twigged really hard
and explained it to myself slow enough that I could understand it.)


> Translation:  We believe in and practice an open, accountable
> development process, except when we don't.  The public is allowed to
> see how TOR works, except when the public is not allowed to see how
> TOR works.  Trust us, what you don't know won't hurt you.

s/won't hurt you/we want you to think won't hurt you/


> "We are not just people who build software, but ambassadors for online
> freedom. We want everybody in the world to understand that their human
> rights -- particularly their rights to free speech, freedom to access
> information, and privacy -- can be preserved when they use the Internet.
> "

"Especially the rights of Jacob Applebaum whom we have a monstrous hard
on for at the moment - his rights are like, you know, really important
all of us here at Tor Inc.  We believe in a better, warmer, caring
world full of justice, transparence and truth."


> Edit to include:  The TOR project believes in human rights, except the
> rights of persons accused of crimes to be held innocent until proven
> guilty, and to publicly confront their accusers in a neutral, public
> Court.  The TOR Project believes in and exercises the rights of
> risk-averse employers to discipline and discharge victims of malicious
> office gossip and/or anonymous denunciation as an expedient conflict
> resolution method.

"And we absolutely believe in the right for those with a rigid anger
against another, to take a firm hold of a vigilante community and
thrust some righteous and vigorously anonymous arguments at the wall of
innuendo, slurs and outright lies and coverups.

Because, what's life without some serious and unethical backstabbing
process thrown into the mix?"


> "We never intentionally mislead our users nor misrepresent the
> capabilities of the tools,

(like those tools on our vigilante justice committee, the CIA guys who
failed to cover their trackes well enough when apply to work with Tor
Inc, and those CIA guys who did get through the gaping cracks we
lubricate with TLA dollars - as we always say, "once you've had black
(money), you'll never go back!")


> nor the potential risks associated with
> using them.

(like the use of our vigilante justice system, which nearly got out of
Public Relations control, but was saved at the 11th hour by our
knight-ess in smoking black garter belts, Shari Steele)


> Every user should be free to make an informed decision

to jump on our vigilante lynch mob band wagons, and

> about whether they should use a particular tool

like Jacob Applebaum when the time is just right,


> and how they should use it."

vigorously, relentlessly and cruelly - we call it:

   The Shari-ahh law way.

Only thing we have not yet figured out is how to include more, how do we
say this, physical consequences, as part of our detailed, torturous and
dare we say, religious ways.


> Edit to include:  "The TOR Browser ships with NoScript installed but
> disabled.  Users must enable it themselves to obtain protection
> against de-anonymization at will by any malicious or compromised
> website.  We do this as a convenience for naive users who may not
> understand what NoScript is or what it does."

As well we do this and are up front about it when we say "we need more
users to fill enough of the bandwidth to provide enough cover traffic
for our special ops in Syria, Lybia, Iraq, Afghanistan, China and
Russia, and disabling No-script by default would cause according to our
estimations, quite a few millions of those useful naieve users to not
stay.


> With TOR, one can have exactly as much "freedom and security" as one
> can steal.  Just like real life.

Yes I agree, that would be a fine ending to their propaganda - I'm just
not sure they would include it - too much truth.




From rayzer at riseup.net  Mon Aug 15 10:42:27 2016
From: rayzer at riseup.net (Rayzer)
Date: Mon, 15 Aug 2016 10:42:27 -0700
Subject: Fwd: [liberationtech] Tor Browser 6.0.4 is ready for testing
In-Reply-To: <a4258779-e78d-a646-ec68-875743108ed9@pilobilus.net>
References: <CANhci9H3P-9UmszeP6j1OKTq05uGhv3Oq2k7-P-X6PPJcThjDg@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAG2tMp76z7hz4iLTf_V7h_jQKdT8BZO2CGRHHhYiTp0CKaakUg@mail.gmail.com>
 <a4258779-e78d-a646-ec68-875743108ed9@pilobilus.net>
Message-ID: <24d5c22d-9a79-f8a5-a879-f4a5976597d7@riseup.net>



On 08/15/2016 10:12 AM, Steve Kinney wrote:

> limitations are understood and pessimistic assumptions are made, of course.

This is what I've been saying all along. The assumption is ONLY that it
buys you some time to GTFO of that internet cafe and down the road. With
Tails, you get a level up in anonymity perhaps because the machine used
is at least hard, if not impossible to identify.

Case in point: The local internet provider here uses AOL upstream, and
one day, while torrenting (transmission, full encryption on) a music
album , my supervisor came in and asked if I was running a torrent
client... that she'd received a call from the local provider about
someone bootlegging. She's a sympathetic sort so I say 'yeah' and told
her what it was... A WARNER album.

AOL/Time/Warner is apparently sniffing every packet passing through
their servers identified as a torrent for bootleg content. It took about
an hour for AOL > Local provider and a phone call from them.

Rr

(Ps, to those who collect such things note gpg sig update)

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From ben at bentasker.co.uk  Mon Aug 15 03:01:07 2016
From: ben at bentasker.co.uk (Ben Tasker)
Date: Mon, 15 Aug 2016 11:01:07 +0100
Subject: Swedish warrant for Wikileaks' Assange cancelled
In-Reply-To: <CAD2Ti29kzjeu3Qa+iV3aaY-utcH8FwRMKGsG=VXUYvyUqapx-Q@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAD2Ti29kzjeu3Qa+iV3aaY-utcH8FwRMKGsG=VXUYvyUqapx-Q@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CABMkiz5EhGMX4ZxUfhavts2xNwE=VC27wKxFaWDhxDtL3iN7kA@mail.gmail.com>

That BBC news article is from 2010.

Will be interesting to see the outcome of their chat with him in the
embassy though.

On Mon, Aug 15, 2016 at 5:15 AM, grarpamp <grarpamp at gmail.com> wrote:

> http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-11049316
> http://www.telesurtv.net/english/news/4-Years-Later-
> Sweden-Accepts-Ecuadors-Offer-to-Hear-Assange-20160810-0039.html
> https://twitter.com/wikileaks
>
> Sweden has cancelled an arrest warrant for Wikileaks founder Julian
> Assange.
> The Swedish Prosecution Authority website said the chief prosecutor
> had come to the decision that Mr Assange was not suspected.
>



-- 
Ben Tasker
https://www.bentasker.co.uk
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From zen at freedbms.net  Sun Aug 14 18:28:19 2016
From: zen at freedbms.net (Zenaan Harkness)
Date: Mon, 15 Aug 2016 11:28:19 +1000
Subject: [BRUSSELS] building a bridge with the people
Message-ID: <20160815012819.GA24644@x220-a02>

How to get connected with the people, to demostrate empathy and an
understanding of the real concerns of particularly the younger
generations, how to build that bridge between government and their elite
backers and, well everyone else who's not part of the one percent?

Well here follows at least one person's demoncratic
attempt to build this needed neo liberal bridge.

Enjoy.





** German President Joachim Gauck says “elites are not the problem,
people are the problem”. Gets booed and spit on
(http://theduran.com/german-president-joachim-gauck-says-elites-not-problem-people-problem-gets-booed-spit-video/)
------------------------------------------------------------
By Alex Christoforou on Aug 14, 2016 03:29 pm
Germany Sochi Boycott

It is an unbelievable statement, but also a very revealing statement
that shows just how arrogant and untouchable the Brussels elite ruling
class believe they have become.

In much the same fashion as teflon Hillary Clinton in the United States,
the German political class is also under the impression that they are
the chosen rulers of a peasant population that simply does not
appreciate their benevolence and kindness to the sheeple masses.

In a recent TV interview, German President Joachim Gauck said…

“The elites are not the problem, the people are the problem.”

IFRAME:
[1]http://www.youtube.com/embed/Gd5TPWXgOFQ

Germans did not take kindly to the President’s statements, and let him
have it with boos and spit.

The anger that is building up all over the western world towards the
global elites is breath taking. It is only a matter of time anger spills
over into blood and revolution. Zerohedge reports
(http://www.zerohedge.com/news/2016-08-13/german-president-booed-attacked-after-claiming-people-are-problem-not-elites)
…

Official German State TV and State Radio reported that “a handful of
right wing extremists” have attacked the president and disturbed the
otherwise peaceful and welcoming reception of the President. This is
simply not the case, as seen in the video…

The people repeatedly shouted “Traitor!”, “Get out!”, “We don’t want
STASI Pigs” and “We are the people!”.

One man, carrying his young son on his shoulders, appears to have spit
on him whilst exclaiming insults. Other citizens were heard saying “You
killed our children” and “What have you done to us?”. They were blocked
by police in riot gear, to whom they said “You are protecting
warmongers, shame on you!”

The situation escalated and the riot police was forced to use pepper
spray.

Heiko Maas, the German Justice Minister, called the attackers “cowards
who insult the president because of their personal frustration”. He
himself was booed off the stage as a traitor by hundreds of Germans at
the annual Labor Day celebration on the 1st of May. He said that they
will be persecuted immediately, as “it cannot be allowed that such a
tiny minority has influence on the political climate in Germany”.

Germany, the stalwart of the EU, is a social mess. Financially, Deutsche
Bank is a house of cards. Europe be warned, the “tiny minority” is
sending a message which the political class chooses to simply ignore.

Via:
http://www.zerohedge.com/news/2016-08-13/german-president-booed-attacked-after-claiming-people-are-problem-not-elites

The post German President Joachim Gauck says “elites are not the
problem, people are the problem”. Gets booed and spit on [Video]
(http://theduran.com/german-president-joachim-gauck-says-elites-not-problem-people-problem-gets-booed-spit-video/)
appeared first on The Duran (http://theduran.com) .

References




From zen at freedbms.net  Sun Aug 14 18:31:39 2016
From: zen at freedbms.net (Zenaan Harkness)
Date: Mon, 15 Aug 2016 11:31:39 +1000
Subject: [RUS] Ron Paul says =?utf-8?B?4oCYQ0lBIGlu?=
 =?utf-8?B?dm9sdmVk4oCZIGk=?= =?utf-8?Q?n?= government overthrow in Ukraine,
 war brewing over Crimea
Message-ID: <20160815013139.GB24644@x220-a02>

** Ron Paul says ‘CIA involved’ in government overthrow in Ukraine, war
brewing over Crimea (VIDEO)
(http://theduran.com/ron-paul-says-cia-involved-in-government-overthrow-in-ukraine-war-clouds-gathering-over-crimea-video/)
------------------------------------------------------------
By Vladimir Rodzianko on Aug 14, 2016 11:16 am
maxresdefault

As Ron Paul and Daniel McAdams correctly point out, the whole crisis
originates from the U.S. backed overthrow of Viktor Yanukovych in 2014 ,
Ukraine’s constitutional and democratically elected President. The U.S.
backed regime that seized power in Ukraine as a result of this coup has
pursued a militantly anti-Russian line, provoking the secession of
Crimea and Russia’s actions there. Though this has created a crisis on
Russia’s border in an area where the U.S. has no direct interest, the
U.S. continues to meddle, fanning tensions and internationalizing the
problem.

>From the Ron Paul Liberty Report:

Russia claims to have stopped a sabotage operation by Ukraine’s
intelligence service. Ukraine denies the charge and has beefed up the
military on its border with Crimea. Is another war brewing? Is the US
pushing for it?

A very important point Ron Paul and Daniel McAdams make is that the
U.S.’s unqualified backing for the Kiev regime simply encourages it to
take the sort of dangerous and reckless actions we have just seen in
Crimea. The result is that every attempt to reduce tensions in the area
– of which there have been many coming from the Russian side – have come
to naught. In Ukraine, as in other places (including Syria – also
touched on by Ron Paul and Daniel McAdams in the video) U.S. policy is
creating problems, not solving them.

IFRAME: [1]http://www.youtube.com/embed/RI4U9dB1NN8

Via: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RI4U9dB1NN8

Subscribe to the Ron Paul Liberty Report channel:
https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCkJ1N-7g9Q6n7KnriGit-Ig

The post Ron Paul says ‘CIA involved’ in government overthrow in
Ukraine, war brewing over Crimea (VIDEO)
(http://theduran.com/ron-paul-says-cia-involved-in-government-overthrow-in-ukraine-war-clouds-gathering-over-crimea-video/)
appeared first on The Duran (http://theduran.com) .

References

1. http://www.youtube.com/embed/RI4U9dB1NN8?version=3&rel=1&fs=1&autohide=2&showsearch=0&showinfo=1&iv_load_policy=1&wmode=transparent




From guninski at guninski.com  Mon Aug 15 01:59:48 2016
From: guninski at guninski.com (Georgi Guninski)
Date: Mon, 15 Aug 2016 11:59:48 +0300
Subject: Attempted coup d'etat in Turkey
In-Reply-To: <bc093f92-2883-8c57-f211-b35aec5db24e@riseup.net>
References: <20160716114046.GD748@sivokote.iziade.m$>
 <20160723105821.GD690@sivokote.iziade.m$>
 <bc093f92-2883-8c57-f211-b35aec5db24e@riseup.net>
Message-ID: <20160815085948.GF686@sivokote.iziade.m$>

On Sat, Jul 23, 2016 at 08:20:58AM -0700, Rayzer wrote:
> Common wisdom and most reliable reports say Turkey has US Nukes on it's
> soil for use against Russia just like they had Tora Bora-like
> installations to monitor Russian comms during the so-called 'cold war'.
> Tora Bora was also a sigint facility for that purpose. Iran had them too.
> 
> There was no danger whatsoever of the nukes being misappropriated by the
> coup plotters. They're even more US-oriented policy-wise than Erdogan's
> government ever was.
>

https://www.yahoo.com/news/us-nukes-turkey-risk-seizure-report-043432750.html

====
Dozens of US nuclear weapons stored at a Turkish air base 
near Syria are at risk of being captured by "terrorists or 
other hostile forces," a Washington think tank claimed Monday.
====

How many times similar stuff happened before?




From admin at pilobilus.net  Mon Aug 15 10:12:28 2016
From: admin at pilobilus.net (Steve Kinney)
Date: Mon, 15 Aug 2016 13:12:28 -0400
Subject: Fwd: [liberationtech] Tor Browser 6.0.4 is ready for testing
In-Reply-To: <CAG2tMp76z7hz4iLTf_V7h_jQKdT8BZO2CGRHHhYiTp0CKaakUg@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CANhci9H3P-9UmszeP6j1OKTq05uGhv3Oq2k7-P-X6PPJcThjDg@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAG2tMp76z7hz4iLTf_V7h_jQKdT8BZO2CGRHHhYiTp0CKaakUg@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <a4258779-e78d-a646-ec68-875743108ed9@pilobilus.net>

On 08/15/2016 12:24 PM, Cecilia Tanaka wrote:
> Uff...  Some months ago, I would be happy.  Now, it means nothing...  :((

Like any other tool, the TOR Browser has strengths and weaknesses,
appropriate uses and foolish/destructive uses.

Lest we forget, Chelsea Manning used TOR to move massive amounts of data
to Wikileaks.  One can argue that Ed Snowden found what he was allowed
to find and shipped it to Greenwald & Co. under the approving gaze of
some compartment at NSA; Manning, not so much.  Billions of dollars
worth of damage were done to the U.S. National Interest, which is why
she rates a sentence of slow death by ritualistic torture.

This recording was never supposed to see the light of day, but it walked
right out of a tightly secured base and onto the Internet within hours:
Manning tells all, including how and why to do that thing:

https://freedom.press/blog/2016/04/freedom-press-foundation-publishes-leaked-audio-bradley-manning%E2%80%99s-statement

-or-

https://tinyurl.com/jrvbj8o

She would have gotten away with it, too, if some "individual" who needs
not be named had not sold her for cheap.

Onion routing can be a useful part of a complete operational security
toolkit.  Only when its limitations are understood and pessimistic
assumptions are made, of course.

:o)





From cecilia.tanaka at gmail.com  Mon Aug 15 09:24:32 2016
From: cecilia.tanaka at gmail.com (Cecilia Tanaka)
Date: Mon, 15 Aug 2016 13:24:32 -0300
Subject: Fwd: [liberationtech] Tor Browser 6.0.4 is ready for testing
In-Reply-To: <CANhci9H3P-9UmszeP6j1OKTq05uGhv3Oq2k7-P-X6PPJcThjDg@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CANhci9H3P-9UmszeP6j1OKTq05uGhv3Oq2k7-P-X6PPJcThjDg@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAG2tMp76z7hz4iLTf_V7h_jQKdT8BZO2CGRHHhYiTp0CKaakUg@mail.gmail.com>

Uff...  Some months ago, I would be happy.  Now, it means nothing...  :((
---------- Forwarded message ----------
From: "Yosem Companys" <companys at stanford.edu>
Date: Aug 15, 2016 12:10 PM
Subject: [liberationtech] Tor Browser 6.0.4 is ready for testing
To: "Liberation Technologies" <liberationtech at lists.stanford.edu>
Cc: "Georg Koppen" <gk at torproject.org>

From: Georg Koppen <gk at torproject.org>

Hi all,

We are pleased to accounce that Tor Browser 6.0.4 is ready for testing.
Bundles can be found on:

https://people.torproject.org/~boklm/builds/6.0.4-build2/

This release finally brings Tor Browser users the latest Tor stable,
0.2.8.6, and avoids pinging Mozilla servers for system extensions.

The latter was responsible for users getting an extension into their Tor
Browser that resulted in annoying and confusing "Your Firefox is out of
date" notifications on start-up (bug 19890). Thanks to Mozilla engineers
who fixed that issue as fast as possible on their side: the extension is
not shipped to Tor Browser users anymore if they ping Mozilla's server.
Users that are on the alpha channel or are using the hardened Tor
Browser were not affected. The same goes for Tails users as far as we know.

The full changelog since Tor Browser 6.0.3 is:

Tor Browser 6.0.4 -- August 16
 * All Platforms
   * Update Tor to 0.2.8.6
   * Update NoScript to 2.9.0.14
   * Bug 19890: Disable installation of system addons

Georg

--
Liberationtech is public & archives are searchable on Google. Violations of
list guidelines will get you moderated: https://mailman.stanford.edu/
mailman/listinfo/liberationtech. Unsubscribe, change to digest, or change
password by emailing moderator at companys at stanford.edu.
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From grarpamp at gmail.com  Mon Aug 15 11:02:09 2016
From: grarpamp at gmail.com (grarpamp)
Date: Mon, 15 Aug 2016 14:02:09 -0400
Subject: Swedish warrant for Wikileaks' Assange cancelled
In-Reply-To: <CABMkiz5EhGMX4ZxUfhavts2xNwE=VC27wKxFaWDhxDtL3iN7kA@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAD2Ti29kzjeu3Qa+iV3aaY-utcH8FwRMKGsG=VXUYvyUqapx-Q@mail.gmail.com>
 <CABMkiz5EhGMX4ZxUfhavts2xNwE=VC27wKxFaWDhxDtL3iN7kA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAD2Ti2-tEq3aUrW9y9x5oPGNZsB43GUY8aA-_bBxn7nnnfkMfQ@mail.gmail.com>

On 8/15/16, Ben Tasker <ben at bentasker.co.uk> wrote:
> That BBC news article is from 2010.

Lol. Ok, have another link via @wikileaks instead...

186Mb archive of apparent NSA malware released:
https://mega.nz/#!zEAU1AQL!oWJ63n-D6lCuCQ4AY0Cv_405hX8kn7MEsa1iLH5UjKU
password=theequationgroup
EQGRP-Auction-Files.zip 234.9 MB




From sangy at riseup.net  Mon Aug 15 11:04:38 2016
From: sangy at riseup.net (Sangy)
Date: Mon, 15 Aug 2016 14:04:38 -0400
Subject: Fwd: [ PFIR ] Wikileaks Published Dozens of Malware Links in
 Email Dump
In-Reply-To: <CAG2tMp6B6L1zU6xnvL8b_xCoWGa1BkLyUNLQhJmvq2iKmaOZ9A@mail.gmail.com>
References: <mailman.492.1471276514.3008.pfir@pfir.org>
 <CAG2tMp6B6L1zU6xnvL8b_xCoWGa1BkLyUNLQhJmvq2iKmaOZ9A@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <20160815180437.n6ryiztmyh4eaa7l@riseup.net>

On Mon, Aug 15, 2016 at 02:43:59PM -0300, Cecilia Tanaka wrote:
> WTF!!!  Wow, now I am scared!  What is happening with Wikileaks?  Ô.Ô
> 

Nothing, the emails were published as is. They contained malware in the
first place, and wikileaks decided to err on the side of integrity by
publishing them *with* the malware.

Who knows, maybe there you will find the spear-phish email used to hack
the DNC in the first place.

of course people can twist the narrative to make it look like wikileaks
is evil. 

Jeez, what's wrong with Facebook? http://www.cnet.com/news/ads-to-blame-for-malware-in-facebooks-farm-town/#!

Oh my good, Reddit too?! http://arstechnica.com/security/2014/10/reddit-powered-botnet-infected-thousands-of-macs-worldwide/

Best,
Sangy.




From grarpamp at gmail.com  Mon Aug 15 11:05:18 2016
From: grarpamp at gmail.com (grarpamp)
Date: Mon, 15 Aug 2016 14:05:18 -0400
Subject: Swedish warrant for Wikileaks' Assange cancelled
In-Reply-To: <CAD2Ti2-tEq3aUrW9y9x5oPGNZsB43GUY8aA-_bBxn7nnnfkMfQ@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAD2Ti29kzjeu3Qa+iV3aaY-utcH8FwRMKGsG=VXUYvyUqapx-Q@mail.gmail.com>
 <CABMkiz5EhGMX4ZxUfhavts2xNwE=VC27wKxFaWDhxDtL3iN7kA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAD2Ti2-tEq3aUrW9y9x5oPGNZsB43GUY8aA-_bBxn7nnnfkMfQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAD2Ti28tdH3X7g63NxnDFTxS0jJAQdfsBHTZB0qE0jLjQEatfQ@mail.gmail.com>

https://github.com/theshadowbrokers/EQGRP-AUCTION/




From cecilia.tanaka at gmail.com  Mon Aug 15 10:43:59 2016
From: cecilia.tanaka at gmail.com (Cecilia Tanaka)
Date: Mon, 15 Aug 2016 14:43:59 -0300
Subject: Fwd: [ PFIR ] Wikileaks Published Dozens of Malware Links in Email
 Dump
In-Reply-To: <mailman.492.1471276514.3008.pfir@pfir.org>
References: <mailman.492.1471276514.3008.pfir@pfir.org>
Message-ID: <CAG2tMp6B6L1zU6xnvL8b_xCoWGa1BkLyUNLQhJmvq2iKmaOZ9A@mail.gmail.com>

WTF!!!  Wow, now I am scared!  What is happening with Wikileaks?  Ô.Ô

---------- Forwarded message ----------
From: "PFIR (People For Internet Responsibility) Announcement List" <
pfir at pfir.org>
Date: Aug 15, 2016 2:28 PM
Subject: [ PFIR ] Wikileaks Published Dozens of Malware Links in Email Dump
To: <pfir-list at pfir.org>

Wikileaks Published Dozens of Malware Links in Email Dump

http://gizmodo.com/wikileaks-published-dozens-of-malware-links-in-email-du-1785293372?utm_source=feedburner&utm_medium=feed&utm_campaign=Feed%3A+gizmodo%2Ffull+%28Gizmodo%29

        Anyone searching the Wikileaks database can easily download
        malware attachments by clicking on the wrong link.  Dr.
        Bontchev disclosed the links safely in his report, and also
        said his findings were "by no means exhaustive." He said most
        of the malware discovered was "run-of-the mill" spam, scam,
        phishing attacks inciting you to click on the attachment,
        which is terrible news for journalists and anti-censorship
        advocates investigating the leak.
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From cecilia.tanaka at gmail.com  Mon Aug 15 11:01:05 2016
From: cecilia.tanaka at gmail.com (Cecilia Tanaka)
Date: Mon, 15 Aug 2016 15:01:05 -0300
Subject: Fwd: [liberationtech] Tor Browser 6.0.4 is ready for testing
In-Reply-To: <a4258779-e78d-a646-ec68-875743108ed9@pilobilus.net>
References: <CANhci9H3P-9UmszeP6j1OKTq05uGhv3Oq2k7-P-X6PPJcThjDg@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAG2tMp76z7hz4iLTf_V7h_jQKdT8BZO2CGRHHhYiTp0CKaakUg@mail.gmail.com>
 <a4258779-e78d-a646-ec68-875743108ed9@pilobilus.net>
Message-ID: <CAG2tMp6cK+JRTjTVUJxNd6ubxZun1t8MKf+2ysG4xjmw3=Wb1Q@mail.gmail.com>

On Aug 15, 2016 2:20 PM, "Steve Kinney" <admin at pilobilus.net> wrote:
>
> Onion routing can be a useful part of a complete operational security
toolkit.  Only when its limitations are understood and pessimistic
assumptions are made, of course.

Thank you very much, my love.  Unhappily, my faith in the Tor Project is a
bit shaken in the moment.  Too many pessimistic assumptions, dear.  :-/

Kisses and onions, Steve!  :*
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From jya at pipeline.com  Mon Aug 15 12:03:46 2016
From: jya at pipeline.com (John Young)
Date: Mon, 15 Aug 2016 15:03:46 -0400
Subject: Swedish warrant for Wikileaks' Assange cancelled
In-Reply-To: <CAD2Ti28tdH3X7g63NxnDFTxS0jJAQdfsBHTZB0qE0jLjQEatfQ@mail.g
 mail.com>
References: <CAD2Ti29kzjeu3Qa+iV3aaY-utcH8FwRMKGsG=VXUYvyUqapx-Q@mail.gmail.com>
 <CABMkiz5EhGMX4ZxUfhavts2xNwE=VC27wKxFaWDhxDtL3iN7kA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAD2Ti2-tEq3aUrW9y9x5oPGNZsB43GUY8aA-_bBxn7nnnfkMfQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAD2Ti28tdH3X7g63NxnDFTxS0jJAQdfsBHTZB0qE0jLjQEatfQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <E1bZN9j-000758-1m@elasmtp-curtail.atl.sa.earthlink.net>

At 02:05 PM 8/15/2016, you wrote:
>https://github.com/theshadowbrokers/EQGRP-AUCTION/



This repository has been disabled.







From jason.mcvetta at gmail.com  Mon Aug 15 01:09:06 2016
From: jason.mcvetta at gmail.com (Jason McVetta)
Date: Mon, 15 Aug 2016 15:09:06 +0700
Subject: DDoSCoin: Proof of malicious work
In-Reply-To: <566351471237372@web18j.yandex.ru>
References: <1881c970-c4e0-d1d0-620c-df801a8503d8@pilobilus.net>
 <566351471237372@web18j.yandex.ru>
Message-ID: <CAN9H=iJAvMv6GQEsiX3amKOSb4zpucFKtC02AbVr8WJYvEWMLA@mail.gmail.com>

On Mon, Aug 15, 2016 at 12:02 PM, Bastiani Fortress <
bastianifortress at yandex.com> wrote:

> Some people wanna watch the world burn.
>

DDOS is a, hitherto clumsy, weapon.  Potentially this technology allows
financial incentivization and thus coordination of attacks.  We can imagine
that like most technologies it could be put to good or to evil use.
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From cecilia.tanaka at gmail.com  Mon Aug 15 11:57:15 2016
From: cecilia.tanaka at gmail.com (Cecilia Tanaka)
Date: Mon, 15 Aug 2016 15:57:15 -0300
Subject: Fwd: [ PFIR ] Wikileaks Published Dozens of Malware Links in
 Email Dump
In-Reply-To: <20160815180437.n6ryiztmyh4eaa7l@riseup.net>
References: <mailman.492.1471276514.3008.pfir@pfir.org>
 <CAG2tMp6B6L1zU6xnvL8b_xCoWGa1BkLyUNLQhJmvq2iKmaOZ9A@mail.gmail.com>
 <20160815180437.n6ryiztmyh4eaa7l@riseup.net>
Message-ID: <CAG2tMp6ZS3W593jPgBT6PxohgWe45jm2i=JL=4_QxC0MkUPX4w@mail.gmail.com>

On Aug 15, 2016 3:42 PM, "Sangy" <sangy at riseup.net> wrote:
>
> of course people can twist the narrative to make it look like wikileaks
is evil.

Thank you, Sangy!  :)

Sorry, my nature is too dramatic and my first reaction was disproportionate
and irrational, but very sincere, hihi!  ;)
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From jason.mcvetta at gmail.com  Mon Aug 15 02:18:08 2016
From: jason.mcvetta at gmail.com (Jason McVetta)
Date: Mon, 15 Aug 2016 16:18:08 +0700
Subject: DDoSCoin: Proof of malicious work
In-Reply-To: <CAD2Ti28isdw0+F4qsiF19S3rkfsBAB4pMT1vrqKLpU=6Q1P=CQ@mail.gmail.com>
References: <1881c970-c4e0-d1d0-620c-df801a8503d8@pilobilus.net>
 <566351471237372@web18j.yandex.ru>
 <CAN9H=iJAvMv6GQEsiX3amKOSb4zpucFKtC02AbVr8WJYvEWMLA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAD2Ti28isdw0+F4qsiF19S3rkfsBAB4pMT1vrqKLpU=6Q1P=CQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAN9H=i+zFWi5AxHwKmGgrraCBuPS-HZYF5pat_KZNACQCjHo6A@mail.gmail.com>

On Mon, Aug 15, 2016 at 4:01 PM, grarpamp <grarpamp at gmail.com> wrote:

> Wait... so if I "d"dos ISIS and whoever else... I won't go to jail and
> will get rich?
>

Unlikely.  But you knew that.
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From admin at pilobilus.net  Mon Aug 15 13:41:42 2016
From: admin at pilobilus.net (Steve Kinney)
Date: Mon, 15 Aug 2016 16:41:42 -0400
Subject: Fwd: [ PFIR ] Wikileaks Published Dozens of Malware Links in
 Email Dump
In-Reply-To: <CAG2tMp6B6L1zU6xnvL8b_xCoWGa1BkLyUNLQhJmvq2iKmaOZ9A@mail.gmail.com>
References: <mailman.492.1471276514.3008.pfir@pfir.org>
 <CAG2tMp6B6L1zU6xnvL8b_xCoWGa1BkLyUNLQhJmvq2iKmaOZ9A@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <86d68077-c0ea-9ac0-bfd9-b084cb5ffd76@pilobilus.net>

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1



On 08/15/2016 01:43 PM, Cecilia Tanaka wrote:
> WTF!!!  Wow, now I am scared!  What is happening with Wikileaks?
> Ô.Ô

Full disclosure.  If you get all the e-mails, they are going to
contain the original spam, scams, malware links and phishing attacks.

:o)



> ---------- Forwarded message ---------- From: "PFIR (People For
> Internet Responsibility) Announcement List" <pfir at pfir.org
> <mailto:pfir at pfir.org>> Date: Aug 15, 2016 2:28 PM Subject: [ PFIR
> ] Wikileaks Published Dozens of Malware Links in Email Dump To:
> <pfir-list at pfir.org <mailto:pfir-list at pfir.org>>
> 
> Wikileaks Published Dozens of Malware Links in Email Dump
> 
> http://gizmodo.com/wikileaks-published-dozens-of-malware-links-in-emai
l-du-1785293372?utm_source=feedburner&utm_medium=feed&utm_campaign=Feed%
3A+gizmodo%2Ffull+%28Gizmodo%29
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From zen at freedbms.net  Mon Aug 15 02:46:57 2016
From: zen at freedbms.net (Zenaan Harkness)
Date: Mon, 15 Aug 2016 19:46:57 +1000
Subject: [DEMOCRACY] From the NSW Hansard: Peter Phelps on greyhound racing
Message-ID: <20160815094656.GD24644@x220-a02>

I wish this were shorter, but it is what it is. That said, if you just
want the TL;DR, read the sentence in the last paragraph, which seems
somewhat apropos the punk side of cypherpunks.

Here is Australia, the Liberal party is the conservative/ less debt/
rational economic and self responsibility type party, where Labour, our
other 'main' national party almost invariably increases national debt,
raises taxes, increases handouts.

Both parties are still well funded by the corporates of course...




----- Forwarded message -----
Date: Mon, 15 Aug 2016 18:51:42 +1000
From: Gil May <gilmay97 at gmail.com>
Subject: From the NSW Hansard: Peter Phelps on greyhound racing

*From the NSW Hansard: Hon Peter Phelps on greyhound racing*

Posted on 7:06 pm, August 11, 2016
<http://catallaxyfiles.com/2016/08/11/from-the-nsw-hansard-peter-phelps-on-greyhound-racing/>
 by Sinclair Davidson <http://catallaxyfiles.com/author/sinclair-davidson/>

*The Hon. Dr PETER PHELPS (17:43): *When we arrive in this place as
parliamentarians we always hope that we will be able to promote good policy
which is also good politics. Occasionally we have to promote good policy
which is bad politics. Two things that spring to mind immediately are the
GST and the leasing of poles and wires. Sometimes we have to promote things
which are bad policy and good politics—the inevitable elements of
pork-barrelling that happen because, quite frankly, winning elections is
important. Occasionally we have legislation and regulation that comes
before us which is both bad policy and bad politics. Bad policy I will go
into later but, in my view, this legislation is bad politics.

The sort of people who get energised by animal rights activism will never
vote for us; they have The Greens and the Animal Justice Party to cater to
their needs—and there is nothing wrong with that. Some people have asked me
how I can support a bill that is supported by The Greens and is it not
axiomatically bad that the Coalition would be supporting something The
Greens support? My answer to that is no, and my mind turns back to the very
significant reforms we did in relation to campaign finance in this State.
Too often, between the Coalition, The Greens and the Animal Justice Party
it is a zero-sum game: we cannot assist them without hurting our own base.

I contrast their peculiar and occasionally bizarre policy prescriptions
with those held by the large number of people in marginal seats that the
Liberal Party hold on the peri-urban fringe of Sydney—that great swathe
which we have taken from Putney to Picton and which we hold quite
proudly—because there was a period of time when we resonated with what
might be called the aspirational voters, the blue-collar conservatives who
decided, with the election of the Howard Government, that they would give
the Liberals a chance. We say, “Oh, don’t worry about them. Greyhound
racing is just a hobby; they will move on from that.” That is not true for
three reasons. First, we would not apply the “Oh, it is just a hobby; they
will move on” if we were to ban rugby league. If we were to ban rugby
league people would not say, “Oh, we will just move on from that. We will
take up an interest in rugby union or the AFL.”

Secondly, it is not true because, more so than rugby league, greyhound
racing is a participation sport. There is an investment of time and capital
in the sport by the owners, the breeders and the trainers; it becomes part
of their personae: “I am a greyhound racer”, “I am a greyhound owner”, “I
am a greyhound trainer”—it is inextricably linked with what they are.
Thirdly, the “Oh, it’s just a hobby; they will move on” is fundamentally
disproved by what happened to a large number of our voters subsequent to
the 1996 gun law changes. Anyone who worked for a Coalition member in a
marginal seat after the 1996 gun law changes knows what happened: they
never forget. One wag once said that in politics friends come and go but
enemies remain forever. The visceral nature of the gun owners, who 20 years
ago were chagrined at the Howard Government, remains, to a large extent,
true today. For that reason I think this is bad politics. I also think it
is bad policy.

I have read the McHugh report and there are some terrible stories in it.
But is this industry so irredeemable that it must be banned? If the 12
apostolic saints came down from heaven and we appointed them to the board
of Greyhound Racing Australia, would this industry be so corrupt and
unbearably fixable that it must still be banned? The Hon. Mark Pearson said
that 10 out of 10 witnesses who were called to the inquiry—nine, actually;
one was implicated—said that they used live baiting. I could select 10
former members of Parliament who, if we were to interview them and use
their evidence as evidence of a grander theme within New South Wales
parliamentarians, we could say are all corrupt. The selective use of 10 out
of 10 witnesses who were specifically chosen because they were believed to
be dodgy anyway is not a great argument. In fact, McHugh makes that point
in the report. He said that what those people said there were ex post facto
rationalisations to cover for their own malfeasance in the industry.

In fact, he put the element of live baiting at between 10 and 20 per cent
as a more realistic figure. The consequences that flow from the inevitable
passage of this legislation today are going to be horrendous. Let us look
at what this legislation is based on: firstly, the concept that there was
illegality, not by a majority, not by everyone, not by a plurality but by a
small but significant minority—10 to 20 per cent; that is the
illegality—that there was knowledge of it at the highest levels; that it
involved injury to animals during racing; and that it involved wastage
rates, the polite euphemism for killing off those dogs that cannot run fast
enough.

There are many instances in our society of unaddressed endemic problems and
systemic failure to correct those problems. One could look at cycling and
talk about endemic doping and systemic failure to reject such doping. One
could look at the endemic corruption occasioned by subcontinental
bookmaking in cricket. One could go back to rugby league and say, “Look at
the incidence of alcohol abuse, drug use, match fixing, steroid use, sexual
abuse and domestic violence.” More importantly, one could say there is also
an endemic and systemic problem in relation to the practice of overpaying
players, conveniently breaching the salary cap, but no-one is suggesting
that rugby league be banned.

On a closer level one could say that the problem is evidenced in the live
export trade in sheep and cattle, including the tactics used by animal
rights activists, could lead to calls for the banning of the live sheep and
cattle trade. In fact, the Coalition rightly slammed the Gillard Government
when it called for a temporary closure of the live sheep and cattle trade
industry. Perhaps the greatest threat we face is from the direct analogy
and that is horseracing. Is there illegality? Is there knowledge of
illegality? Is there injury to animals and are there wastage rates? The
answer is yes, exercise-induced pulmonary haemorrhaging. Researchers at the
University of Melbourne have shown that 56 per cent of racehorses have
blood in their windpipes and 90 per cent have blood deeper in their lungs.
Are there deaths in racing? Yes, famously Red Cadeaux in the 2015 Melbourne
Cup and the year prior to that Admire Rakti and Araldo. Indeed, the
Coalition for the Protection of Racehorses gives a figure which indicates
that Australia-wide 127 horses died on Australian racetracks and thousands
more have disappeared from the sport in the calendar year 2015.

I note that the Coalition for the Protection of Racehorses has the somewhat
revealing and pointed website*horseracingkills.com
<http://horseracingkills.com>*, which gives an indication of exactly how
objective it is in that regard. If people are agitated about a 30 per cent
rate of muscular and ligamentary damage in greyhounds, imagine how they
will feel if they get vision of blood pouring out of a racehorse’s
nostrils? Are there incidences of doping? Yes. A quick Google search will
show allegations of doping with erythropoietin [EPO], cobalt chloride to
produce EPO, caffeine, xenon gas and formaldehyde, the practice of stomach
tubing and even today the old practice of gingering a horse.

Indeed, in talking about wastage, when a thoroughbred destined for racing
is born in Australia its chances of being a successful racehorse are slim.
It is estimated that only 300 out of every 1,000 foals produced will ever
start a race. That means of 13,000 thoroughbred foals born each year in
Australia alone, approximately 9,000 will be considered useless and
thousands will end up at the knackers. Of the horses that do race, one
Australian study found that approximately 40 per cent earned no money at
all and only 13 per cent earned money to cover costs. These figures did not
include the initial purchase price. Dr Paul O’Callahan, Chief Veterinary
Steward of the Victorian Racing Club, stated that less than 2 per cent of
horses actually earn their keep. Ariella Hayek in 2004 in her study
“Epidemiology of horses leaving the racing and breeding industries” noted:

Of the twenty knackeries that participated … three plants processed 200 or
more horses per month. Plants that processed larger numbers of horses
tended to process younger horses. The managers of these plants suggested
these horses tended to be sold to the slaughterhouse as a result of
economic difficulties … [and] also reported slaughtering large numbers of
racehorses … Given the low market value for ex-racehorses, the high costs
of care and level of experience required, it is likely that if this large
number of horses did not enter slaughterhouses, they would be prone to
conditions in which their welfare would be a cause of concern.

I am not suggesting that the horseracing industry should be abolished but
the same sorts of arguments that are being made today for the abolition of
the greyhound racing industry can and will be made and are in fact
currently being made by animal rights activists to shut down the trotting
and horseracing industries. Animals are property; they are not persons and
the mere fact of sentience does not grant one comparable rights to humans.
But that is not the view of animal rights activists. Selective culling is
vital for breeding. That is why 95 per cent of male calves are castrated
and sold for meat. When one is using the coercive power of the State to ban
an entire industry that is a pretty big decision to make. I want to quote
one paragraph from the report. Paragraph 1.114 states:

It would be surprising if these failings of the industry had not destroyed
the community’s trust in the industry. Moreover, these failings have
occurred in a context where greyhounds in NSW are now primarily, almost
exclusively, bred for commercial purposes to race for prize money and to
create gambling opportunities. The reality is that, for many, perhaps most,
of those who participate in the industry – whether as punters, breeders,
owners or trainers, greyhounds are commercial commodities, not animals to
be cherished and loved.

Let me take that paragraph and just change a couple of words to show the
hysterical temper of this report:

It would be surprising if these failings of the industry had not destroyed
the community’s trust in the industry. Moreover, these failings have
occurred in a context where beef cattle in NSW are now primarily, almost
exclusively, bred for commercial purposes – to be killed and sold for food.
The reality is that, for many, perhaps most, of those who participate in
the industry – whether as … breeders or owners … beef cattle are commercial
commodities, not animals to be cherished and loved.

It is ridiculous and it is applying a double standard; it is a “How much is
that doggie in the window?” moralising. Nobody is calling for the live
export trade to be banned for sheep or cattle. I certainly am not—except
that actually some people are. The sort of people who enthusiastically
support the greyhound ban are exactly the same people who want to shut down
the live export trade, shut down horseracing and harness racing and, in
many instances, believe that ownership of pets is abhorrent. The precedent
that this establishes is very dangerous.

In New South Wales we have hunting with hounds. The Sydney Hunt Club
exists. Are we going to ban that too? The irony is that greyhounds now
could be bred as companion animals and could actually hunt rabbits in the
field, but they could not be used for chasing a mechanical hare around a
track. The second problem we face—and this is an even more dangerous
precedent—is the problem of acknowledging as a conservative Government the
concept of a social licence. It is a vague, imprecise method; it is a tool
uniformly of the Left. One never hears people say, “Wind farms have lost
their social licence” or “the CFMEU has lost its social licence”.

We are a party of the rule of law and laws which are rules, not touchy,
feely opinions. Social licence is a hammer used by the cultural Left to
attack that which is legal but which they dislike—coal, coal seam gas [CSG]
and mining—a vague, imprecise tool where any demagogue can claim to be the
authentic voice of the people. “So you don’t like something; well let’s ban
it.” Why? Because it has lost its social licence. But who determines social
licence?

Is it just an update of the concept of “the common good” that demagogues
and dictators everywhere can use to justify their actions as “the will of
the people”? Has hunting with hounds lost its social licence? What about
hunting with firearms? What about plain old ownership of firearms? If the
only metric in social licensing is 50 per cent plus one, we can ban
anything we dislike.

For the ideologues of the animal welfare extremists, this is just the thin
end of the wedge. Think for a moment: Does this bill encourage or
discourage them? Are they going to roll up their swags and go home and say,
“That is it; we have fixed all the problems we have”, or are they going to
take this as yet another step on their path to ideological purity? This
week we had People for the Ethical Treatment of Animals [PETA] calling for
Eggs and Bacon Bay in Tasmania to be renamed. These are the sorts of people
we are dealing with.

Allow me to move briefly into the realm of prophecy. This bill is a rod for
our own back, a rod with which we will be beaten in the future by these
activists. PETA or some other animal welfare organisation will recruit
someone, probably a bright young woman, to go to a trainer, probably one in
rural or regional New South Wales. It will not be Gai Waterhouse; it will
be some trainer in regional New South Wales—maybe old Cec at Queanbeyan
Racecourse. This woman will say, “I really love horses, but I cannot break
into the industry. Can you let me in? You do not need to pay me. I just
want you to teach me all you know about the industry.” Old Cec, who might
be doing it tough, might think, “This is great”, and take her on. Then
every day she will come in miked up and with a hidden camera. Cec, who is
not a vet—he goes about what he does based on 40 years of experience and
what his dad taught him—might have a few folk remedies. He loves horses,
but they are not his living. Some will not run, some will go to the
knackery, some will bleed from the nostrils and some will have injuries. In
the end, the edited tapes will be handed over to *Four Corners *and we will
be back here again.

The argument I have heard is, “This won’t be applied to the horseracing or
harness industry.” Why not? The eye roll from the Hon. Mark Pearson when
the Minister started talking about the higher standards of conditions in
other forms of racing spoke eloquently about what he really believes about
the conditions in those other forms of racing. That eye roll gave the game
away. What is the moral precept or the ideological world view that divides
racing greyhounds from racing horses? Is it mere numbers? How much wastage
is too much? Is it the historical decline of greyhound racing? If we are
talking about the historical decline of industries as a rationale for
euthanasing them, there are a whole range of non-racing economic industries
we could kill off on that basis. Is it simply the number of industry
participants—that horseracing is too big to fail? Is it popularity? If it
is popularity, that sets a dangerous precedent. Nobody has clearly
enunciated exactly why the radical animal liberationists will not use this
prohibition as an encouragement, as a propaganda springboard, for their
activities in the future.

During his contribution, the Hon. Peter Primrose quoted Coalition members
at length. What he failed to acknowledge was that there is also dissent
within the Labor Party. I will not go into too much detail, but this whole
idea that “disunity is death”, that we should remain a Punch and Judy show
where we whack each other over the head rather than let a plurality of
ideas and a Socratic discourse take place, is, I think, abhorrent. What
happens is that we legitimise a system where politicians are absolved from
the necessity of thought and consideration of public policy issues.

I want to leave everyone with a thought experiment. If the Premier had come
out and instead said, “We are not going to ban the industry; we are going
to work on a reform package”, who seriously believes there would have been
a groundswell in the Coalition parties to then ban the industry? My concern
is not that people have strong views on this matter. My concern rather is
that we are invoking the full suite of coercive powers of the state,
violating freedom of association, freedom of action and ownership of
property, based on no strong views whatsoever—a lackadaisical
authoritarianism which I cannot and will not support.

----- End forwarded message -----




From rayzer at riseup.net  Mon Aug 15 20:59:43 2016
From: rayzer at riseup.net (Rayzer)
Date: Mon, 15 Aug 2016 20:59:43 -0700
Subject: [liberationtech] Tor Browser 6.0.4 is ready for testing
In-Reply-To: <57b28691.46b9370a.c0640.2bc2@mx.google.com>
References: <CANhci9H3P-9UmszeP6j1OKTq05uGhv3Oq2k7-P-X6PPJcThjDg@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAG2tMp76z7hz4iLTf_V7h_jQKdT8BZO2CGRHHhYiTp0CKaakUg@mail.gmail.com>
 <a4258779-e78d-a646-ec68-875743108ed9@pilobilus.net>
 <24d5c22d-9a79-f8a5-a879-f4a5976597d7@riseup.net>
 <57b28691.46b9370a.c0640.2bc2@mx.google.com>
Message-ID: <5c29df71-4138-c19a-b7e8-324665384f07@riseup.net>



On 08/15/2016 08:25 PM, juan wrote:
> 
>> > With Tails, you get a level up in anonymity perhaps because the
>> > machine used is at least hard, if not impossible to identify.


> 	And your credentials for making that kind of bullshit claim are
> 	what, exactly. Rhetorical question of course. Spare me your
> 	bullshit, you tor-MILITARY-CORPORATION-bot.
> 
> 

Because you can take the fucking drive out of a computer and run
entirely off a thumbdrive. It leaves no trace and wipes memory as it
shuts down, and now that's exactly what I'm going to do with you troll.
Shut you down. Killist you, and you can bark at the moon for all I give
a fuck.

Rr




From seanl at literati.org  Mon Aug 15 14:43:24 2016
From: seanl at literati.org (Sean Lynch)
Date: Mon, 15 Aug 2016 21:43:24 +0000
Subject: Going Dark - an unmentionable company blows law enforcement
In-Reply-To: <20160813003242.GB2293@x220-a02>
References: <20160813003242.GB2293@x220-a02>
Message-ID: <CAHKdp-mdXOm02EhHCLhdwCK7KLJ_9UQucsb52+uHgD55Q00HaQ@mail.gmail.com>

On Fri, Aug 12, 2016 at 5:41 PM Zenaan Harkness <zen at freedbms.net> wrote:

> Cause for both cautious optimism - this might result in a competitive
> market for 'full system' 'wholistic' encryption ecosystem -
>
> @pp13 at BlackHat: Reopening the "Going Dark" Debate
> https://lawfareblog.com/apple-blackhat-reopening-going-dark-debate
>
> (The author says some things which sound a bit messed up e.g. "Apple
> built the very thing that they and the privacy community have been
> saying for years is reckless, dangerous or impossible: a high-value
> encryption key secured in a vault such that the key can’t be stolen or
> misused by hackers or malicious insiders" - perhaps he's attempting to
> obfuscate things, or perhaps his own mind is naturally obfuscated.)
>

Apple has created a MUCH higher value target than an individual iPhone, and
I doubt they've made it enough more expensive to crack than an individual
iPhone that they won't eventually be forced to break it. Of course, forcing
them to break it is tantamount to outlawing such a system anyway, so it
doesn't actually have to be impossible to break, just hard enough that the
law has to change in a significant way before they can be force to break
it. In which case they'd just switch to key escrow anyway and we'd all feel
sorry for them because well at least they tried.

Perhaps it's my lack of imagination, but this doesn't seem to move the bar
much on the "reckless, dangerous, or impossible" thing. They were able to
build the vault because its functionality is essentially identical to the
Secure Enclave chip. Its construction, AFAICT, does not prove that one can
build a similarly secure system that could allow selective access, because
the immutability of the system means you would still need some kind of
master key to authenticate to it to get it to decrypt individual secrets.
You still need physical access, of course, but then it's just a plain ol'
HSM, is it not?

The other property that lets this approach work is that even if the device
fails, that just invalidates people's keychain backups. It doesn't destroy
their original keychains. I'm guessing that Apple scales the service and
avoids the possibility of the loss of a single device invalidating all
backups by having a way to add new master keys over time. Such a mechanism
couldn't be used to decrypt any existing backup, but it could be used to
force Apple to add an escrowed key and get every iPhone to reencrypt its
backup with the new key.

Found a nice photo from the talk, by the way: http://imgur.com/a/YO6ak

(Speaking of autonomous, inaccessible, non-updatable systems...)
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From anticon at sigaint.org  Mon Aug 15 15:26:13 2016
From: anticon at sigaint.org (anticon at sigaint.org)
Date: Mon, 15 Aug 2016 22:26:13 -0000
Subject: Anarchist Bibliography, please?
Message-ID: <41602a693420bd8b08ff9c6203f40f4e.webmail@localhost>

Sole (Poet)

Capitalism:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ioP6sAtzyoI

Coal:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YE-Zk9Y7Jdg

Fuck Google:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ehg3Hgkxkbo

Sole could use your help with tech, as seen here:
http://www.soledjpain1.lnk.to/Nihilismo






From crypto at jpunix.net  Mon Aug 15 15:32:00 2016
From: crypto at jpunix.net (Crypto)
Date: Mon, 15 Aug 2016 22:32:00 +0000
Subject: NSA Hacked? Really?
Message-ID: <0de5ca6c-f92e-6ce7-e289-c9e3b999be83@jpunix.net>

Reddit is going nutz over articles like this...

http://motherboard.vice.com/read/hackers-hack-nsa-linked-equation-group

-- 
Crypto





From juan.g71 at gmail.com  Mon Aug 15 19:54:21 2016
From: juan.g71 at gmail.com (juan)
Date: Mon, 15 Aug 2016 23:54:21 -0300
Subject: NSA Hacked? Really?
In-Reply-To: <0de5ca6c-f92e-6ce7-e289-c9e3b999be83@jpunix.net>
References: <0de5ca6c-f92e-6ce7-e289-c9e3b999be83@jpunix.net>
Message-ID: <57b27f39.b529c80a.bdce3.74d7@mx.google.com>

On Mon, 15 Aug 2016 22:32:00 +0000
Crypto <crypto at jpunix.net> wrote:

> Reddit is going nutz over articles like this...
> 
> http://motherboard.vice.com/read/hackers-hack-nsa-linked-equation-group
> 

	" hackers are...asking for 1 million bitcoin

	lol! this plot is even more stupid than the hollywood-scripted
	9-11 'terrorist' scam...







From admin at pilobilus.net  Mon Aug 15 20:59:21 2016
From: admin at pilobilus.net (Steve Kinney)
Date: Mon, 15 Aug 2016 23:59:21 -0400
Subject: [liberationtech] Tor Browser 6.0.4 is ready for testing
In-Reply-To: <57b2867a.442eed0a.beaae.8538@mx.google.com>
References: <CANhci9H3P-9UmszeP6j1OKTq05uGhv3Oq2k7-P-X6PPJcThjDg@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAG2tMp76z7hz4iLTf_V7h_jQKdT8BZO2CGRHHhYiTp0CKaakUg@mail.gmail.com>
 <a4258779-e78d-a646-ec68-875743108ed9@pilobilus.net>
 <57b2867a.442eed0a.beaae.8538@mx.google.com>
Message-ID: <7158b65f-9484-2327-f110-a35d5c81ca2b@pilobilus.net>

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1



On 08/15/2016 11:25 PM, juan wrote:

>> Lest we forget, Chelsea Manning used TOR to move massive amounts
>> of data to Wikileaks.
> 
> 
> Source?

Manning, if I recall correctly:

>> 
https://freedom.press/blog/2016/04/freedom-press-foundation-publishes-le
aked-audio-bradley-manning%E2%80%99s-statement
>> 
>> -or-
>> 
>> https://tinyurl.com/jrvbj8o

And even if that were true, then that would be how he
got caught? using tor?

Told Adrian Lamo, who told the Feds.

http://www.democracynow.org/2011/12/19/adrian_lamo_bradley_manning_infor
mant_defends

- -or-

https://tinyurl.com/7t3gfcm

> Hardly good advertising for tor. I know that allegedly he was
> betrayed, but, you know, "parallel construction".

Belief makes people stupid, in the sense that it makes them think in
circles as necessary to support the belief.  I do not "believe" that
someone ratted Chelsea out, but I do consider it very likely.  In part
because of the time that passed between the first, exceptionally
damaging public release of Manning's material, and the arrest - some
time after the third exceptionally damaging release.

:o/





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YG4o7kh2trj4aTIrQ4fK82Mb/wvFjBktRVyDzD7yL5Dcq95EntS1Z7obu7nu8afv
Ysmd0kwLcUJwVpKsB2gqCWTwsMgZ8A4DsOIj+d/Yn6ZUSI1clV8Arzf5T69DqIPp
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From grarpamp at gmail.com  Mon Aug 15 21:18:19 2016
From: grarpamp at gmail.com (grarpamp)
Date: Tue, 16 Aug 2016 00:18:19 -0400
Subject: Facing The Panopticon
Message-ID: <CAD2Ti2_aCUk9E49CwK7PoTaCzVPgXMB7N-sTsY__wDD+_gHZQA@mail.gmail.com>

http://www.counterpunch.org/2016/08/12/facing-down-the-panopticon/
 by Bill Blunden
John Young, the architect who runs the web site Cryptome, has called
this forest of kiosks “the largest urban spying system in the United
States.”
And this is merely the tip of the iceberg. The rapid spread of these
urban telescreens is an indication of a much larger problem.

http://www.nextgov.com/big-data/2016/01/70-percent-global-internet-traffic-goes-through-northern-virginia/124976/
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/science/2016/08/02/landlord-installs-faraday-cage-to-block-phone-signals-because-so/





From juan.g71 at gmail.com  Mon Aug 15 20:25:18 2016
From: juan.g71 at gmail.com (juan)
Date: Tue, 16 Aug 2016 00:25:18 -0300
Subject: [liberationtech] Tor Browser 6.0.4 is ready for testing
In-Reply-To: <a4258779-e78d-a646-ec68-875743108ed9@pilobilus.net>
References: <CANhci9H3P-9UmszeP6j1OKTq05uGhv3Oq2k7-P-X6PPJcThjDg@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAG2tMp76z7hz4iLTf_V7h_jQKdT8BZO2CGRHHhYiTp0CKaakUg@mail.gmail.com>
 <a4258779-e78d-a646-ec68-875743108ed9@pilobilus.net>
Message-ID: <57b2867a.442eed0a.beaae.8538@mx.google.com>

On Mon, 15 Aug 2016 13:12:28 -0400
Steve Kinney <admin at pilobilus.net> wrote:

> On 08/15/2016 12:24 PM, Cecilia Tanaka wrote:
> > Uff...  Some months ago, I would be happy.  Now, it means
> > nothing...  :((
> 
> Like any other tool, the TOR Browser has strengths and weaknesses,
> appropriate uses and foolish/destructive uses.
> 
> Lest we forget, Chelsea Manning used TOR to move massive amounts of
> data to Wikileaks.


	Source? And even if that were true, then that would be how he
	got caught? using tor?  Hardly good advertising for tor. I know
	that allegedly he was betrayed, but, you know, "parallel
	construction".


	Truth is, it would have been a lot better for him to copy any
	data he wanted to 'leak' and mail it using 'snail mail'.



>  One can argue that Ed Snowden found what he was
> allowed to find and shipped it to Greenwald & Co. under the approving
> gaze of some compartment at NSA; Manning, not so much.  Billions of
> dollars worth of damage were done to the U.S. National Interest,


	How? Not meaning to badmouth manning, it's not his fault that
	the US is a fascist cesspool, but americans either don't give a
	fuck about their mass murdering government, or cheer for it.


> which is why she rates a sentence of slow death by ritualistic
> torture.
> 
> This recording was never supposed to see the light of day, but it
> walked right out of a tightly secured base and onto the Internet
> within hours: Manning tells all, including how and why to do that
> thing:
> 
> https://freedom.press/blog/2016/04/freedom-press-foundation-publishes-leaked-audio-bradley-manning%E2%80%99s-statement
> 
> -or-
> 
> https://tinyurl.com/jrvbj8o
> 
> She would have gotten away with it, too, if some "individual" who
> needs not be named had not sold her for cheap.


> 
> Onion routing can be a useful part of a complete operational security
> toolkit.   Only when its limitations are understood and pessimistic
> assumptions are made, of course.
> 
> :o)
> 





From juan.g71 at gmail.com  Mon Aug 15 20:25:42 2016
From: juan.g71 at gmail.com (juan)
Date: Tue, 16 Aug 2016 00:25:42 -0300
Subject: [liberationtech] Tor Browser 6.0.4 is ready for testing
In-Reply-To: <24d5c22d-9a79-f8a5-a879-f4a5976597d7@riseup.net>
References: <CANhci9H3P-9UmszeP6j1OKTq05uGhv3Oq2k7-P-X6PPJcThjDg@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAG2tMp76z7hz4iLTf_V7h_jQKdT8BZO2CGRHHhYiTp0CKaakUg@mail.gmail.com>
 <a4258779-e78d-a646-ec68-875743108ed9@pilobilus.net>
 <24d5c22d-9a79-f8a5-a879-f4a5976597d7@riseup.net>
Message-ID: <57b28691.46b9370a.c0640.2bc2@mx.google.com>

On Mon, 15 Aug 2016 10:42:27 -0700
Rayzer <rayzer at riseup.net> wrote:

> 
> 
> On 08/15/2016 10:12 AM, Steve Kinney wrote:
> 
> > limitations are understood and pessimistic assumptions are made, of
> > course.
> 
> This is what I've been saying all along. The assumption is ONLY that
> it buys you some time to GTFO of that internet cafe and down the
> road. 


	Oh yes. That's how 'hidden' services operate. You 'get out of
	the internet cafe' when the DEA comes to get your server and
	shoot you.




> With Tails, you get a level up in anonymity perhaps because the
> machine used is at least hard, if not impossible to identify.

	And your credentials for making that kind of bullshit claim are
	what, exactly. Rhetorical question of course. Spare me your
	bullshit, you tor-MILITARY-CORPORATION-bot.




> 
> Case in point: The local internet provider here uses AOL upstream, and
> one day, while torrenting (transmission, full encryption on) a music
> album , my supervisor came in and asked if I was running a torrent
> client... that she'd received a call from the local provider about
> someone bootlegging. She's a sympathetic sort so I say 'yeah' and told
> her what it was... A WARNER album.
> 
> AOL/Time/Warner is apparently sniffing every packet passing through
> their servers identified as a torrent for bootleg content. It took
> about an hour for AOL > Local provider and a phone call from them.
> 
> Rr
> 
> (Ps, to those who collect such things note gpg sig update)
> 





From juan.g71 at gmail.com  Mon Aug 15 20:37:31 2016
From: juan.g71 at gmail.com (juan)
Date: Tue, 16 Aug 2016 00:37:31 -0300
Subject: Going Dark - an unmentionable company blows law enforcement
In-Reply-To: <20160813003242.GB2293@x220-a02>
References: <20160813003242.GB2293@x220-a02>
Message-ID: <57b28956.94c5370a.d412e.30f7@mx.google.com>

On Sat, 13 Aug 2016 10:32:42 +1000
Zenaan Harkness <zen at freedbms.net> wrote:

> Cause for both cautious optimism - this might result in a competitive
> market for 'full system' 'wholistic' encryption ecosystem - 
 
> 
> @pp13 at BlackHat: Reopening the "Going Dark" Debate
> https://lawfareblog.com/apple-blackhat-reopening-going-dark-debate
> 

	Sorry, that is just apple spam. 

	Apple is a bunch of psychos whose only purpose in life is to
	steal as much money as possible thanks to state-granted
	'intellectual property' monopolies.

	That means two thigs : 

	one)  they would never do anything that can hurt their partner
	in crime. Apple can't exist without the state. It would be
	crazy for them to fight the state. 


	two) since what they want is money, then they have to sell
	garbage that the 'market' wants. And the 'market' is not
	interested in security. So, it doesn't make any sense for them
	to sell stuff that allegedly protects people from the
	police(their partners anyway).





> (The author says some things which sound a bit messed up e.g. "Apple
> built the very thing that they and the privacy community have been
> saying for years is reckless, dangerous or impossible: a high-value
> encryption key secured in a vault such that the key can’t be stolen or
> misused by hackers or malicious insiders" - perhaps he's attempting to
> obfuscate things, or perhaps his own mind is naturally obfuscated.)






From mirimir at riseup.net  Mon Aug 15 23:47:13 2016
From: mirimir at riseup.net (Mirimir)
Date: Tue, 16 Aug 2016 00:47:13 -0600
Subject: [onioncat] Onioncat v2
In-Reply-To: <CAD2Ti29OFagohqxdZ2Wn8E-pEjBSn8zGKDrtTZDZ-ua8BGzhcA@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAD2Ti2-j50nD0yJpk1vCowP8ZvY88zsOekd5VrxjXBOFA3_j9Q@mail.gmail.com>
 <a976c2ee32d91ccb898f53d841980efe@blackmesa.at>
 <CAD2Ti2_hBgAdZeiDXmyc6WmBsLorGmjAQrQA8r-Hz7_j0nXwww@mail.gmail.com>
 <56DE8F93.4050307@abenteuerland.at>
 <CAD2Ti29OFagohqxdZ2Wn8E-pEjBSn8zGKDrtTZDZ-ua8BGzhcA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <64d949d9-23d5-f40c-acd9-d8812c67bace@riseup.net>

So is onioncat at lists.blackmesa.at still alive?






From juan.g71 at gmail.com  Mon Aug 15 21:19:26 2016
From: juan.g71 at gmail.com (juan)
Date: Tue, 16 Aug 2016 01:19:26 -0300
Subject: [liberationtech] Tor Browser 6.0.4 is ready for testing
In-Reply-To: <7158b65f-9484-2327-f110-a35d5c81ca2b@pilobilus.net>
References: <CANhci9H3P-9UmszeP6j1OKTq05uGhv3Oq2k7-P-X6PPJcThjDg@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAG2tMp76z7hz4iLTf_V7h_jQKdT8BZO2CGRHHhYiTp0CKaakUg@mail.gmail.com>
 <a4258779-e78d-a646-ec68-875743108ed9@pilobilus.net>
 <57b2867a.442eed0a.beaae.8538@mx.google.com>
 <7158b65f-9484-2327-f110-a35d5c81ca2b@pilobilus.net>
Message-ID: <57b29329.d434c80a.ffb49.83e8@mx.google.com>

On Mon, 15 Aug 2016 23:59:21 -0400
Steve Kinney <admin at pilobilus.net> wrote:

> Belief makes people stupid, in the sense that it makes them think in
> circles as necessary to support the belief.  I do not "believe" that
> someone ratted Chelsea out, but I do consider it very likely.


	So what. 

	And you didn't really address my points, especially the fact
	that it is safer to physically mail stuff. 



> In part
> because of the time that passed between the first, exceptionally
> damaging public release of Manning's material, and the arrest - some
> time after the third exceptionally damaging release.


	WHat damaging releases were those? I can think of the
	'collateral murder' video as somewhat upsetting to the
	pentagon's propaganda efforts, for a few weeks, but that was
	all.






> 
> :o/
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
> Version: GnuPG v2.0.22 (GNU/Linux)
> 
> iQEcBAEBAgAGBQJXso+ZAAoJEECU6c5XzmuqtrEIAM51riuBM+F6sPZZtT9SwtPn
> f45VKDmUCI3jqzE5l9BGMFl76Q5YkZKpgg/plZdME/Ocn9Pz0g9KKCN7K6KCDhpz
> J2aKhGBTRvaPXRDhqkpP8Nx1SezGGt1OPEJeQPM4cqaTAS/faQW7ds4j+/3gzHpG
> YG4o7kh2trj4aTIrQ4fK82Mb/wvFjBktRVyDzD7yL5Dcq95EntS1Z7obu7nu8afv
> Ysmd0kwLcUJwVpKsB2gqCWTwsMgZ8A4DsOIj+d/Yn6ZUSI1clV8Arzf5T69DqIPp
> buHTlREygPgdfbXuKF77QfssGp33u3rfuQauH+PvBJqjOPT4kPstNHk4G+IHIVw=
> =gejT
> -----END PGP SIGNATURE-----





From juan.g71 at gmail.com  Mon Aug 15 21:22:01 2016
From: juan.g71 at gmail.com (juan)
Date: Tue, 16 Aug 2016 01:22:01 -0300
Subject: [liberationtech] Tor Browser 6.0.4 is ready for testing
In-Reply-To: <5c29df71-4138-c19a-b7e8-324665384f07@riseup.net>
References: <CANhci9H3P-9UmszeP6j1OKTq05uGhv3Oq2k7-P-X6PPJcThjDg@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAG2tMp76z7hz4iLTf_V7h_jQKdT8BZO2CGRHHhYiTp0CKaakUg@mail.gmail.com>
 <a4258779-e78d-a646-ec68-875743108ed9@pilobilus.net>
 <24d5c22d-9a79-f8a5-a879-f4a5976597d7@riseup.net>
 <57b28691.46b9370a.c0640.2bc2@mx.google.com>
 <5c29df71-4138-c19a-b7e8-324665384f07@riseup.net>
Message-ID: <57b293c4.fa26c80a.89d80.8763@mx.google.com>

On Mon, 15 Aug 2016 20:59:43 -0700
Rayzer <rayzer at riseup.net> wrote:

> 
> 
> On 08/15/2016 08:25 PM, juan wrote:
> > 
> >> > With Tails, you get a level up in anonymity perhaps because the
> >> > machine used is at least hard, if not impossible to identify.
> 
> 
> > 	And your credentials for making that kind of bullshit claim
> > are what, exactly. Rhetorical question of course. Spare me your
> > 	bullshit, you tor-MILITARY-CORPORATION-bot.
> > 
> > 
> 
> Because you can take the fucking drive out of a computer and run
> entirely off a thumbdrive. It leaves no trace and wipes memory as it
> shuts down, and now that's exactly what I'm going to do with you
> troll.

	Uh oh. I'm so afraid and upset. I on the other hand will keep
	calling out the garbage you post here. 




> Shut you down. Killist you, 

	yep, the kind of think that commie pieces of shit like you do
	best =)


and you can bark at the moon for
> all I give a fuck.
> 
> Rr





From carlos at s8f.org  Mon Aug 15 22:00:21 2016
From: carlos at s8f.org (Carlos Rodriguez)
Date: Tue, 16 Aug 2016 05:00:21 +0000
Subject: Announcing Zenbot 3, your new BTC/ETH/LTC trading bot,
 now with live candlestick graph and plugin-based architecture
Message-ID: <0101015691b8c6bd-2391f66c-e6e8-4732-bc87-68d3ab089e46-000000@us-west-2.amazonses.com>


zenbot is an automated cryptocurrency trading bot. It runs on node.js and MongoDB and is fully open-sourced. A plugin architecture is included that allows any exchange, trade strategy, or currency pair to be supported.

	• Out of the box, zenbot is an AI-powered trade advisor (gives you buy or sell signals while watching live data).
	• Default support for GDAX is included, so if you have a GDAX account, enable bot trades by simply putting your GDAX API key in config.js and setting what currency pair to trade.
	• Default support for other exchanges is ongoing.
	• Trade strategy is fully exposed in the config file. This allows you to have full control over the bot’s actions and logic. For example, instead of trading on GDAX, you could trade on a different exchange or currency pair by implementing a few lines of JavaScript.
	• A live candlestick graph is provided via a built-in HTTP server.

More: https://s8f.org/zenbot.html




From vroom at mail2tor.com  Mon Aug 15 23:40:15 2016
From: vroom at mail2tor.com (vroom at mail2tor.com)
Date: Tue, 16 Aug 2016 06:40:15 -0000
Subject: [liberationtech] Tor Browser 6.0.4 is ready for testing
Message-ID: <3694c392ee49612e86e1eab63f730172.squirrel@_>

> Rayzer:
> run off thumbdrive
> leave no trace
> wipes memory

This incorrect.

Such system write over data.

Trace on *all* flash.

Can be recovered.

Read hacks.





From bastianifortress at yandex.com  Mon Aug 15 22:13:22 2016
From: bastianifortress at yandex.com (Bastiani Fortress)
Date: Tue, 16 Aug 2016 07:13:22 +0200
Subject: NSA Hacked? Really?
In-Reply-To: <57b27f39.b529c80a.bdce3.74d7@mx.google.com>
References: <0de5ca6c-f92e-6ce7-e289-c9e3b999be83@jpunix.net>
 <57b27f39.b529c80a.bdce3.74d7@mx.google.com>
Message-ID: <131911471324402@web17h.yandex.ru>

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From rayzer at riseup.net  Tue Aug 16 08:00:34 2016
From: rayzer at riseup.net (Rayzer)
Date: Tue, 16 Aug 2016 08:00:34 -0700
Subject: [liberationtech] Tor Browser 6.0.4 is ready for testing
In-Reply-To: <3694c392ee49612e86e1eab63f730172.squirrel@_>
References: <3694c392ee49612e86e1eab63f730172.squirrel@_>
Message-ID: <c6e3544d-33a4-45a1-92d8-58d2a6de46fb@riseup.net>



On 08/15/2016 11:40 PM, vroom at mail2tor.com wrote:
>> Rayzer:
>> run off thumbdrive
>> leave no trace
>> wipes memory
> 
> This incorrect.
> 
> Such system write over data.
> 
> Trace on *all* flash.
> 
> Can be recovered.
> 
> Read hacks.
> 


I've run tails without a drive in this machine so there's nothing on
that non-existent drive to indicate I was doing anything at the time
tails was running. AFA memory wipe, one can never really  be sure what's
cached in some recess of the hardware. But read my post. You have the
time to 'get out the door and down the road'. Ed Snowden did that.
That's one reason they didn't capture him.

If all you want to do is cruise darkweb kiddieporn sites from your
basement den every evening while your wife's upstairs cooking dinner and
you think tor or tails keeps you safe... You're wrong. NOTHING can keep
you safe if you're stationary. Nothing EVER will.

Rr

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From jya at pipeline.com  Tue Aug 16 05:23:23 2016
From: jya at pipeline.com (John Young)
Date: Tue, 16 Aug 2016 08:23:23 -0400
Subject: DCCC Internal Docs on Primaries in Florida
In-Reply-To: <20160816112610.GL27807@x220-a02>
References: <20160816065203.GB689@sivokote.iziade.m$>
 <20160816112610.GL27807@x220-a02>
Message-ID: <E1bZdNi-0002L7-A4@elasmtp-dupuy.atl.sa.earthlink.net>


>With such transparency, USA is slowly approaching what might be
>termed democracy and "informed voters" :/

The DCCC and "NSA" releases are over-hyped garbage commensurate
with political campaigns in all countries. More like that promulgated by
spies in all countries. Even in this sacred temple of cpunk-purity.







From guninski at guninski.com  Mon Aug 15 23:24:16 2016
From: guninski at guninski.com (Georgi Guninski)
Date: Tue, 16 Aug 2016 09:24:16 +0300
Subject: NSA Hacked? Really?
In-Reply-To: <57b27f39.b529c80a.bdce3.74d7@mx.google.com>
References: <0de5ca6c-f92e-6ce7-e289-c9e3b999be83@jpunix.net>
 <57b27f39.b529c80a.bdce3.74d7@mx.google.com>
Message-ID: <20160816062416.GA689@sivokote.iziade.m$>

On Mon, Aug 15, 2016 at 11:54:21PM -0300, juan wrote:
> On Mon, 15 Aug 2016 22:32:00 +0000
> Crypto <crypto at jpunix.net> wrote:
> 
> > Reddit is going nutz over articles like this...
> > 
> > http://motherboard.vice.com/read/hackers-hack-nsa-linked-equation-group
> > 
> 
> 	" hackers are...asking for 1 million bitcoin
>
http://arstechnica.com/security/2016/08/group-claims-to-hack-nsa-tied-hackers-posts-exploits-as-proof/

There is a link and screenshot of the original announcement.

As I read it, public release is fallback option in case there is no
winner in the auction and it raised at least million.

This claim looks weird:
====
While it wasn't immediately possible for outsiders to prove the 
posted data—mostly batch scripts and _poorly coded_ python scripts
====





From guninski at guninski.com  Mon Aug 15 23:52:03 2016
From: guninski at guninski.com (Georgi Guninski)
Date: Tue, 16 Aug 2016 09:52:03 +0300
Subject: DCCC Internal Docs on Primaries in Florida
Message-ID: <20160816065203.GB689@sivokote.iziade.m$>

DCCC Internal Docs on Primaries in Florida

https://guccifer2.wordpress.com/2016/08/15/dccc-internal-docs-on-primaries-in-florida/

====
Here are the DCCC docs on Florida: reports, memos, briefings,
dossiers, etc. You can have a look at who you are going to elect
now. It may seem the congressional primaries are also becoming 
a farce.
====

Released on the same day as the alleged NSA sploits.





From zen at freedbms.net  Mon Aug 15 17:35:39 2016
From: zen at freedbms.net (Zenaan Harkness)
Date: Tue, 16 Aug 2016 10:35:39 +1000
Subject: Fwd: [ PFIR ] Wikileaks Published Dozens of Malware Links in
 Email Dump
In-Reply-To: <20160815180437.n6ryiztmyh4eaa7l@riseup.net>
References: <mailman.492.1471276514.3008.pfir@pfir.org>
 <CAG2tMp6B6L1zU6xnvL8b_xCoWGa1BkLyUNLQhJmvq2iKmaOZ9A@mail.gmail.com>
 <20160815180437.n6ryiztmyh4eaa7l@riseup.net>
Message-ID: <20160816003539.GE24644@x220-a02>

On Mon, Aug 15, 2016 at 02:04:38PM -0400, Sangy wrote:
> On Mon, Aug 15, 2016 at 02:43:59PM -0300, Cecilia Tanaka wrote:
> > WTF!!!  Wow, now I am scared!  What is happening with Wikileaks?  Ô.Ô

> of course people can twist the narrative to make it look like wikileaks
> is evil. 

Well, that -is- Lauren Blitzkreigs job these days - I guess Google ain't
paying him any more :/


> Jeez, what's wrong with Facebook? http://www.cnet.com/news/ads-to-blame-for-malware-in-facebooks-farm-town/#!
> 
> Oh my good, Reddit too?! http://arstechnica.com/security/2014/10/reddit-powered-botnet-infected-thousands-of-macs-worldwide/

O M F G ! ! ! !

What  are  we  going  to  do ? ! !

:D




From jnn at synfin.org  Tue Aug 16 08:07:07 2016
From: jnn at synfin.org (John Newman)
Date: Tue, 16 Aug 2016 11:07:07 -0400
Subject: US drug policy -> maintains the class divide
In-Reply-To: <565a8ace.834b370a.f6cb1.0c8d@mx.google.com>
References: <CAOsGNSTmdOV8g+3sCtF0NewLu2F33=SSgjgVp2SwCkPvwxWEbA@mail.gmail.com>
 <565a8ace.834b370a.f6cb1.0c8d@mx.google.com>
Message-ID: <1471360027.4162.3.camel@synfin.org>

On Sun, 2015-11-29 at 02:26 -0300, juan wrote:
> On Sat, 28 Nov 2015 23:46:16 +0000
> Zenaan Harkness <zen at freedbms.net> wrote:
> 
> > From a comment on slashdot - I'm not American, but this sounds quite
> > plausible to me:
> > 
> > http://news.slashdot.org/story/15/11/27/1343243/lsd-microdosing-gaining-popularity-for-silicon-valley-professionals
> > "
> > If you're a $100k/yr engineer (Score:4, Insightful)
> > by rsilvergun (571051) on Friday November 27, 2015 @10:52AM
> > (#51013395) such things don't apply. In America we have a
> > multi-tiered justice system. It's pretty well documented. Wealthy and
> > educated people get treatment programs, while poor (and let's face
> > it, black) people get jail. It's because what we're really using our
> > drug policy for is to keep the poors in check.
> 
> 
> 	Feeding the medical and pharmaceutical mafia is another key
> 	objective - and purpose -  of the government. 
> 
> 
> 	In a free market, a kilo of a 'natural'(comes from a plant,
> 	it's quite green) stimulant like cocaine would cost, say, $100,
> 	whereas in the current fascist system, $100 buys you a few
> 	pills of the latest patented garbage sold by pfizer and pushed
> 	by the narc-cunts known as 'medical doctors'.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
>  Think of it this way.
> > If your poor chances are you or one of your friends is using drugs to
> > cope with poverty. Now, our drug laws, in particular our asset
> > forfeiture laws are basically guilt by association. Combine that with
> > juries that are inherently conservative (since you generally have to
> > be well off to be able to afford to server on a jury for any length
> > of time).
> > 
> > So when poor people show up in wealthy neighborhoods they not only
> > stick out like a swore thumb, but odds are good the cops can bust them
> > for the drugs at least one of them is carrying. This keeps poor people
> > out of wealthy school districts and parks, and lets the wealthy enjoy
> > their (much, much better) public services.
> > 
> > Basically, our drug policy is central to maintaining our class
> > divide... "
> 

US drug laws, the ridiculous sentencing guidelines and mandatory
minimums, the blatantly racist enforcement (and extra-judicial
killings), and the resulting American gulag (highest per-capita
incarceration rate in the world) are just a little twist on slavery,
which "ended" during the Civil War....

John





From jnn at synfin.org  Tue Aug 16 08:14:11 2016
From: jnn at synfin.org (John Newman)
Date: Tue, 16 Aug 2016 11:14:11 -0400
Subject: US drug policy -> maintains the class divide
Message-ID: <1471360451.4162.6.camel@synfin.org>

On Tue, 2016-08-16 at 11:07 -0400, John Newman wrote:

US drug laws, the ridiculous sentencing guidelines and mandatory
> minimums, the blatantly racist enforcement (and extra-judicial
> killings), and the resulting American gulag (highest per-capita
> incarceration rate in the world) are just a little twist on slavery,
> which "ended" during the Civil War....
> 
> John
> 
Hmm.. new mail client, mail sorted backwards, I just realized I
responded to a thread from last year :) ... but the point stands,.heh..


John





From grarpamp at gmail.com  Tue Aug 16 09:25:22 2016
From: grarpamp at gmail.com (grarpamp)
Date: Tue, 16 Aug 2016 12:25:22 -0400
Subject: [onioncat] Onioncat v2
In-Reply-To: <64d949d9-23d5-f40c-acd9-d8812c67bace@riseup.net>
References: <CAD2Ti2-j50nD0yJpk1vCowP8ZvY88zsOekd5VrxjXBOFA3_j9Q@mail.gmail.com>
 <a976c2ee32d91ccb898f53d841980efe@blackmesa.at>
 <CAD2Ti2_hBgAdZeiDXmyc6WmBsLorGmjAQrQA8r-Hz7_j0nXwww@mail.gmail.com>
 <56DE8F93.4050307@abenteuerland.at>
 <CAD2Ti29OFagohqxdZ2Wn8E-pEjBSn8zGKDrtTZDZ-ua8BGzhcA@mail.gmail.com>
 <64d949d9-23d5-f40c-acd9-d8812c67bace@riseup.net>
Message-ID: <CAD2Ti29kNYH8YMMNrqWk0U9z4ZHkKiBmK3a3KwS9joJ25QHajQ@mail.gmail.com>

On 8/16/16, Mirimir <mirimir at riseup.net> wrote:
> So is onioncat at lists.blackmesa.at still alive?

Last known status to tor-dev is below.

Due to that, a long thread prefixed 'Onioncat and Prop224' from
April and spanning through now... bug me if you want a thread
preserving joiner mail or just import the mbox archives.
https://lists.torproject.org/pipermail/tor-dev/2016-April/010847.html

On 6/26/16, Haslinger Daniel <Daniel.Haslinger at fhstp.ac.at> wrote:
> Mailing lists and full archives will be back next week,
> I already set up a new infrastructure for this and it will maintain
> all previously subscribed members (and be far more stable than
> what we had before :-)




From guninski at guninski.com  Tue Aug 16 02:30:13 2016
From: guninski at guninski.com (Georgi Guninski)
Date: Tue, 16 Aug 2016 12:30:13 +0300
Subject: DCCC Internal Docs on Primaries in Florida
In-Reply-To: <20160816065203.GB689@sivokote.iziade.m$>
References: <20160816065203.GB689@sivokote.iziade.m$>
Message-ID: <20160816093013.GC689@sivokote.iziade.m$>

On Tue, Aug 16, 2016 at 09:52:03AM +0300, Georgi Guninski wrote:
> Released on the same day as the alleged NSA sploits.

That was wrong, the sploits were announced on 13 August.





From jnn at synfin.org  Tue Aug 16 09:37:51 2016
From: jnn at synfin.org (John)
Date: Tue, 16 Aug 2016 12:37:51 -0400
Subject: US drug policy -> maintains the class divide
In-Reply-To: <20160816153457.GC16816@x220-a02>
References: <1471360451.4162.6.camel@synfin.org>
 <20160816153457.GC16816@x220-a02>
Message-ID: <62549538-0424-4534-91E5-4560666425C3@synfin.org>

Lol ;)

On August 16, 2016 11:34:57 AM EDT, Zenaan Harkness <zen at freedbms.net> wrote:
>On Tue, Aug 16, 2016 at 11:14:11AM -0400, John Newman wrote:
>> On Tue, 2016-08-16 at 11:07 -0400, John Newman wrote:
>> 
>> US drug laws, the ridiculous sentencing guidelines and mandatory
>> > minimums, the blatantly racist enforcement (and extra-judicial
>> > killings), and the resulting American gulag (highest per-capita
>> > incarceration rate in the world) are just a little twist on
>slavery,
>> > which "ended" during the Civil War....
>> > 
>> > John
>> > 
>> Hmm.. new mail client, mail sorted backwards, I just realized I
>> responded to a thread from last year :) ... but the point
>stands,.heh..
>
>That's it son!
>
>You just keep on apologivin for steppin outside that there box now you
>hear me?!
>
>Replyin to emails that's as topical as ever - but hell! They wuz a few,
>months, old! That's just toooo much youse hear me boy!?!?
>
>Get back to your group think an comply now with our expectations of
>normalizin behaviour now - or you WILL be considered ABnormal.
>
>  Take THAT, human plebe!!!
>
><grumble grumble>Yung whippaschnappas, thinkin they can reply ta
>emails from late last year - what's the dang world comin too?!?!
><wheeze>Now where's mah dang prozark!???

-- 
Sent from my Android device with K-9 Mail. Please excuse my brevity.
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From jnn at synfin.org  Tue Aug 16 09:44:36 2016
From: jnn at synfin.org (John)
Date: Tue, 16 Aug 2016 12:44:36 -0400
Subject: [WAR] A brief bit of Hillary history.
In-Reply-To: <20160816150853.GA16816@x220-a02>
References: <20160816150853.GA16816@x220-a02>
Message-ID: <7FD4B3D2-FD18-4F98-AD3C-EA87B9138C61@synfin.org>

The thing about Trump is he thinks climate change / global warming is a hoax. I can't fucking stand Hillary or Trump, but at least she doesn't blatantly deny science..  not to say that she'll DO anything about it if (probably when) she's "elected"...

Its an awful line up.

John


On August 16, 2016 11:08:53 AM EDT, Zenaan Harkness <zen at freedbms.net> wrote:
>My question was, is and shall continue to be, who of the various
>candidates in the upcoming USA elections, who might get elected to run
>the USA war machine, would be the least likely candidate to push Russia
>and or China and or the rest of the world into World War 3, when the
>economic crunch time for North America finally hits the fan.
>
>We know a massive global financial crash is coming, and in previous
>points of financial collapse, history shows us an almost certainty of a
>major war following.
>
>This bodes EXTREMELY PRECARIOUSLY for all of us on this little blue
>planet, and suggests that those who vote in the upcoming North American
>elections ought think carefully about the question above.
>
>Those who are onlookers might consider being in contact with anyone
>they
>know who will be involved/ voting in the upcoming USA elections, and
>discover their thoughts on this fundamental question - who is most and
>who is least likely to start World War 3.
>
>Also, look into the preference voting system (like we also have in
>Australia) if you will be voting, and figure out how your candidate's
>votes might be applied to other candidates, should your chosen
>candidate
>not receive enough votes to be elected. That, or choose your own
>preferences!
>
>Be informed, and let's do our bit towards avoiding World War 3 - if
>this
>issue of the potential for the next world war is not handled by us
>humans, we may just find that sometime in the next 4 years, that we are
>all faced with a reality where NO OTHER QUESTION EVEN MATTERS, and it's
>too late to argue or say sorry or I told you so or anything else so
>pathetic in the face of the lack of the action required to have stopped
>the problem in the first place.
>
>Good luck fellow humans,
>Zenaan
>
>
>
>----- Forwarded message -----
>
>Subject: FW: nothing has changed! they are all the same.
>
>http://jacksonville.com/reason/fact-check/2014-03-08/story/fact-check-was-hillary-clinton-fired-watergate-investigation
>
>----- End forwarded message -----

-- 
Sent from my Android device with K-9 Mail. Please excuse my brevity.
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From jnn at synfin.org  Tue Aug 16 09:48:42 2016
From: jnn at synfin.org (John)
Date: Tue, 16 Aug 2016 12:48:42 -0400
Subject: software - multiple version installs (any distro developers here?)
In-Reply-To: <20160816052039.GF27807@x220-a02>
References: <20160816052039.GF27807@x220-a02>
Message-ID: <A3F8DD2A-608C-4377-AD71-158618B6C508@synfin.org>

Might take a look at homebrew on OSX ... it's similar to your idea , everything is installed into its own little packaged directory and then symlinked back to /usr/local/{bin,sbin}/....

It beats macports and fink all to fuck.

John

On August 16, 2016 1:20:39 AM EDT, Zenaan Harkness <zen at freedbms.net> wrote:
>Any distro developers here? I just want to float an idea with a couple
>folks before throwing it out publicly - I'm sure this has been thunked
>before, but I'd like to see the libre unix software ecosystem move
>forward on this.
>
>Firstly, witness the glory of /opt :
>
>$ tree /opt -L 3
>/opt
>├── bin
>│   ├── eclipse -> ../e/eclipse/eclipse
>│   ├── libreoffice -> ../l/libreoffice/program/soffice
>│   ├── lo -> libreoffice
>│   ├── pg -> ../p/pg/pg  # hypothetical
>│   ├── soffice -> libreoffice
>│   └── vuze -> ../v/vuze/latest/vuze/vuze
>├── e
>│   ├── eclipse -> eclipse-4.6
>│   ├── eclipse-4.6
>│   │   ├── artifacts.xml
>│   │   ├── configuration
>│   │   ├── eclipse
>│   │   ├── icon.xpm
>│   │   ├── plugins
>│   │   └── readme
>│   └── eclipse-themes
>├── l
>│   ├── libreoffice -> libreoffice5.2
>│   ├── libreoffice4.8
>│   │   ├── CREDITS.fodt
>│   │   ├── help
>│   │   └── program
>│   └── libreoffice5.2
>│       ├── CREDITS.fodt
>│       ├── help
>│       ├── LICENSE
>│       ├── LICENSE.html
>│       ├── presets
>│       ├── program
>│       └── share
>├── p
>│   └── pg -> postgresql
>└── v
>    └── vuze
>        ├── 5600
>        └── latest -> 5600
>
>
>So we see this particular /opt/bin is a (admittedly small in my
>personal
>example) symlink farm, pointing out to various versions of various
>installed software.
>
>Also, it is structured like a Debian style package pool, with
>directories {a..z} to contain the various (manually in this case)
>installed software.
>
>With just a smattering of /etc/.. based meta files, .deb meta files and
>tool awareness, a distro could install all software in this form - say
>into /usr/a/.. /usr/b/.. etc., and /usr/lib, /usr/bin and /usr/share
>become symlink farms.
>
>The primary benefits I see are:
> - simple multiple versions install of same software/ library/ etc
> - different software can easily depend on different versions of
>  other software/ library/ etc, since everything can easily be parallel
>   installed
> - existing Unixy standards can be more easily maintained (/bin /usr
>   /lib) with symlink farms
> - end user can much more easily maintain their own custom /opt/bin to
>   override version preferences rather than learning arcane per distro
>   package incantations
>
>Main problems:
> - it's a partially new install/ FHS system (though a multi-year
>   transition shouldn't be particularly painful afaict)
> - really needs to become part of FHS, and therefore cross-distro
> - therefore needs buy-in from >1 distro, or at least a non-intrusive
>   transition plan/ capability
>
>Does anyone foresee any other particular problems with this concept?

-- 
Sent from my Android device with K-9 Mail. Please excuse my brevity.
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From grarpamp at gmail.com  Tue Aug 16 10:17:48 2016
From: grarpamp at gmail.com (grarpamp)
Date: Tue, 16 Aug 2016 13:17:48 -0400
Subject: [WAR] A brief bit of Hillary history.
In-Reply-To: <20160816150853.GA16816@x220-a02>
References: <20160816150853.GA16816@x220-a02>
Message-ID: <CAD2Ti2_Nka2S=ymALUVWnnJ2KzN3a5JArJhz7cYTnuVs7VbLdQ@mail.gmail.com>

On 8/16/16, Zenaan Harkness <zen at freedbms.net> wrote:
> economic crunch time for North America finally hits the fan.
> We know a massive global financial crash is coming, and in previous

Like when countries figure out the pot stirrer and
start departnering with all its bases and spying in
search of say less stressful entanglement, life, future...

Those who are artificially propped up crash and fall.
Other more natural ones just keep on going.

> elections ought think carefully about the question above.

People often do strange things when backed into corners.
Thankfully Hilliary will just have a seizure and drop,
hopefully not while hovering over the History Eraser Button.

To a voter, Green or Libertarian may look more sensible,
even Trump as "outsider". Career politicians suck.
Vote the crypto / pirate / anarchist party.

> http://jacksonville.com/reason/fact-check/2014-03-08/story/fact-check-was-hillary-clinton-fired-watergate-investigation

"
On his now-shuttered website, Zeifman said
"

archive.org?

"
“Hillary Clinton is ethically unfit to be either a senator or
president — and if she were to become president, the last vestiges of
the traditional moral authority of the party of Roosevelt, Truman and
Johnson will be destroyed.”
"

What used to be simple games of men and railroads,
are now deep conspiracies of spooks and ether.





From admin at pilobilus.net  Tue Aug 16 10:19:43 2016
From: admin at pilobilus.net (Steve Kinney)
Date: Tue, 16 Aug 2016 13:19:43 -0400
Subject: [liberationtech] Tor Browser 6.0.4 is ready for testing
In-Reply-To: <57b29329.d434c80a.ffb49.83e8@mx.google.com>
References: <CANhci9H3P-9UmszeP6j1OKTq05uGhv3Oq2k7-P-X6PPJcThjDg@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAG2tMp76z7hz4iLTf_V7h_jQKdT8BZO2CGRHHhYiTp0CKaakUg@mail.gmail.com>
 <a4258779-e78d-a646-ec68-875743108ed9@pilobilus.net>
 <57b2867a.442eed0a.beaae.8538@mx.google.com>
 <7158b65f-9484-2327-f110-a35d5c81ca2b@pilobilus.net>
 <57b29329.d434c80a.ffb49.83e8@mx.google.com>
Message-ID: <2a7154c2-3425-a262-b87e-8c7032b171f3@pilobilus.net>

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1



On 08/16/2016 12:19 AM, juan wrote:

>> In part because of the time that passed between the first,
>> exceptionally damaging public release of Manning's material, and
>> the arrest - some time after the third exceptionally damaging
>> release.
> 
> 
> WHat damaging releases were those? I can think of the 'collateral
> murder' video as somewhat upsetting to the pentagon's propaganda
> efforts, for a few weeks, but that was all.

The 'collateral murder' video hit Iraq during negotiations with the
3rd (?) post-conquest iteration of an allegedly sovereign Iraqi
government for continued U.S. occupation and control of Iraq.  It
pissed the Iraqi public off so badly that continued 100% immunity from
local prosecution of U.S. persons for any and all crimes including
murder was taken off the table.  In consequence of this, the U.S.
occupation force was pulled out of Iraq.  This was more than a little
inconvenient, it was bloody expensive.

The U.S. proxy force "formerly known as" ISIS have a dual mission:
West of the Syria/Iraq border, the ongoing destabilization of Syria to
prevent construction of oil & gas pipelines from Iran to a
BRICS-friendly Mediterranean seaport.  East of the border, to force
the Iraqis to allow U.S. occupation forces back in to "protect" Iraq
from an invading armed force and assure continued US/NATO control of
Iraqi oil.

The Cablegate and War Diaries releases both stirred diplomatic
anthills, complicating or terminating numerous U.S. foreign policy
operations in progress, causing direct losses on numerous fronts and
imposing global scale damage control tasks.  All of the above cost
money - a damn lot of it - and tied up human resources that would have
otherwise been very productively engaged in business as usual, i.e.
looting the planet.

Compare and contrast this impact to that of the well controlled
Snowden leak, which has caused a bit of embarrassment while serving
the practical purpose of putting the U.S. civilian population on
notice that Big Brother really is watching their every move.  On the
domestic political warfare front, State and Corporate actors would not
necessarily view this as a Bad Thing, as cultivating paranoia is one
of their long term self-defense missions.

Somebody probably located in Germany has since handed the world NSA
docs with more practical impact on U.S. espionage operations than the
whole Snowden Affair to date, and the U.S. public at large has no idea
it even happened.  Propaganda costs money and nobody on this side of
the Atlantic seems to be interested in paying for play in this case.

> And you didn't really address my points, especially the fact that
> it is safer to physically mail stuff.

I would not call that a 'fact' without considering that physically
mailing storage media has its own inherent risks.  IIRC, Wikileaks'
advertised postal addresses are in "Five Eyes" territory, so nothing
will be delivered via post without e-z and unavoidable State
inspection and approval.  Arranging any physical delivery method that
might be more secure would require two-way communication in advance
with Wikileaks, so why not simplicate matters by using the same
"secure" comms channel to transmit the docs and have done with it?

:o)




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From jnn at synfin.org  Tue Aug 16 10:55:24 2016
From: jnn at synfin.org (John Newman)
Date: Tue, 16 Aug 2016 13:55:24 -0400
Subject: [WAR] A brief bit of Hillary history.
In-Reply-To: <CAN9H=iJoiC23E9KczY6SEZdyhWpMFMg=Cc=1JNKOZpqQWh7zoQ@mail.gmail.com>
References: <20160816150853.GA16816@x220-a02>
 <7FD4B3D2-FD18-4F98-AD3C-EA87B9138C61@synfin.org>
 <CAN9H=iJoiC23E9KczY6SEZdyhWpMFMg=Cc=1JNKOZpqQWh7zoQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <E145D632-BE6C-4CEB-A17B-8F45BC8CAF1A@synfin.org>

I disagree, vehemently.  Global warming is not a red herring.  Permafrost is melting, oceans are rising and acidifying, and the future for big coastal cities is looking very bleak indeed.  There is a scientific consensus on this issue.

But yes of course pollution does suck ass...

--
John

> On Aug 16, 2016, at 1:06 PM, Jason McVetta <jason.mcvetta at gmail.com> wrote:
> 
>> On Tue, Aug 16, 2016 at 11:44 PM, John <jnn at synfin.org> wrote:
>> The thing about Trump is he thinks climate change / global warming is a hoax. 
> 
> Here's the thing: global warming is a red herring.  Whether or not anthropogenic climate change is real - dumping pollution into the environment still sucks balls.  So at the behest of the bigmedia propaganda organs, perfectly well-intentioned people on both sides endlessly argue over dodgy, politicized science.  
> 
> Yet regardless which side is right about global warming, almost everyone agrees that pollution blows oats and should be reduced.   
> 
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From catskillmarina at gmail.com  Tue Aug 16 11:23:42 2016
From: catskillmarina at gmail.com (Marina Brown)
Date: Tue, 16 Aug 2016 14:23:42 -0400
Subject: [liberationtech] Tor Browser 6.0.4 is ready for testing
In-Reply-To: <57b29329.d434c80a.ffb49.83e8@mx.google.com>
References: <CANhci9H3P-9UmszeP6j1OKTq05uGhv3Oq2k7-P-X6PPJcThjDg@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAG2tMp76z7hz4iLTf_V7h_jQKdT8BZO2CGRHHhYiTp0CKaakUg@mail.gmail.com>
 <a4258779-e78d-a646-ec68-875743108ed9@pilobilus.net>
 <57b2867a.442eed0a.beaae.8538@mx.google.com>
 <7158b65f-9484-2327-f110-a35d5c81ca2b@pilobilus.net>
 <57b29329.d434c80a.ffb49.83e8@mx.google.com>
Message-ID: <1dc29639-f495-9b4f-1468-6b2ec99cf275@gmail.com>

On 08/16/2016 12:19 AM, juan wrote:
> On Mon, 15 Aug 2016 23:59:21 -0400
> Steve Kinney <admin at pilobilus.net> wrote:
> 
>> Belief makes people stupid, in the sense that it makes them think in
>> circles as necessary to support the belief.  I do not "believe" that
>> someone ratted Chelsea out, but I do consider it very likely.
> 
> 
> 	So what. 
> 
> 	And you didn't really address my points, especially the fact
> 	that it is safer to physically mail stuff. 
> 
> 

Are you aware that all mail in the US is scanned at central points and
subjected to a fairly high level of scrutiny. Anonymous mail is more
highly scrutinized.

--- Marina Brown


> 
>> In part
>> because of the time that passed between the first, exceptionally
>> damaging public release of Manning's material, and the arrest - some
>> time after the third exceptionally damaging release.
> 
> 
> 	WHat damaging releases were those? I can think of the
> 	'collateral murder' video as somewhat upsetting to the
> 	pentagon's propaganda efforts, for a few weeks, but that was
> 	all.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
>>
>> :o/
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
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>> Version: GnuPG v2.0.22 (GNU/Linux)
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>> =gejT
>> -----END PGP SIGNATURE-----
> 
> 


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From zen at freedbms.net  Mon Aug 15 21:24:53 2016
From: zen at freedbms.net (Zenaan Harkness)
Date: Tue, 16 Aug 2016 14:24:53 +1000
Subject: [MONEY] A Black Day in Monetary History
Message-ID: <20160816042453.GB27807@x220-a02>

Search for the 3 blank lines to skip the prequel :)

----
A Black Day in Monetary History

By Bill Bonner in Ouzilly, France

Last night, we tossed and turned in bed like a crazy person with a
fever.

Sunday was clear and hot. In the evening, we went to the 19 th -century
church in Montmorillon for a concert.

Bach, Schubert, Mozart — all were performed on the big organ in back of
the church, accompanied by a clarinettist.

Fortissimo thunder

The organ is about 30 feet off the ground.

It is set on a wooden platform, ornately carved, and cantilevered out
into the church so that it is over the heads of the people sitting in
the rearmost pews.

It is built of such sturdy, heavy wood that we thought for a moment the
entire ensemble might pitch over onto the crowd below.

That was after all the stops had been pulled out, and a fortissimo
thunder arose from the organ. It sounded like the advance of the Red
Army on Berlin in 1945. (Elizabeth noted that she thought the organist
was abusing the instrument.)

Classical music performed on a huge, old organ in a stone church is
always impressive.

But there were a couple of times when we thought that Bach was just
toying with us…or that he had lost the plot, wandering up and down the
scales with no clear destination.

Our favourite, ‘Concierto de Aranjuez,’ by Rodrigo, haunted our sleep.

It is a piece with an undercurrent of sweet melancholy such as what you
might find echoed in the Diary from time to time.

Yes, we laugh at economists, politicians, and popular myths. But beneath
it — like an unrelenting, dark accompaniment of ‘Concierto de Aranjuez’
— is the age-old lament that everything you care about inevitably comes
to an end.

New monetary era

The musical highlight of the evening was ‘Ave Maria’ by Franz Schubert.

It was, after all, Mary’s big night: the eve of her assumption into
Heaven.

Appropriately uplifting and bright, ‘Ave Maria’ was Schubert’s hit song
of 1825. It was composed as ‘The Lady of the Lake’ and adapted to the
Catholic prayer addressed to the mother of Jesus.

Schubert died three years later at the age of 31.

Returning home after the concert, the moon shone so bright we hardly
needed to turn on the lights. We could see perfectly well, but the
colours were washed out. It was as if everything had been painted in
shades of black and white while we were away.

Maybe it was the moonlight…maybe it was the sad music…something
disturbed our sleep.

We turned to the left. We turned to the right. We heard the melodies
from the concert so clearly, we went to the open, moonlit window to see
if someone were playing a radio outside…

But perhaps it was something else troubling our sleep…




Yes, today, we mark the beginning of a new era…and the end of the
American Dream — such as it was.

On this day in 1971, President Nixon defaulted on America’s promise to
its foreign creditors to convert its dollars to gold at the fixed rate
of $35 an ounce.

This ended the last vestiges of the gold standard. And it set world
currencies — which had been pegged to the gold-backed dollar —
‘floating’ against one another.

Neither Nixon, nor almost anyone else, had a clear idea of what the new
monetary era really meant.

No one — not even economist Milton Friedman, who advised the president —
had any idea what it would do to the world economy and to the American
system of government.

Friedman was right about most things. But he was disastrously wrong
about money.

Yet, so subtle was it…so clever…so unanticipated — like a sudden shift
to a minor scale or an unexpected major lift — it took 40 years for the
new refrain to become clear.

Maculate conception

Only now are we beginning to hear the full melody…and understand how
this new money corrupted the country and undermined its wealth.

For all its faults — and there were many — the US used to be a place
where hard work usually paid off.

People worked, saved, invested…and grew wealthier. Wealth followed work,
not the other way around.

There were always whiners and complainers — some with legitimate beefs
about the way the system worked. Still, there was a shared belief that
the system was fair…because there was a connection — real and
unforgiving — between money and the morality of the marketplace.

Generally, those with money got it by work, invention, innovation,
self-discipline, or luck. And generally, other people accepted the
outcome as fair.

But this new money changed everything. It turned an entire class of
people — the insiders, the elite, the establishment — into parasites
able only to get money unfairly.

The new money was the product of a very maculate conception — borrowed
into existence, not earned.

This put the cart of money manipulation in front of the horse of hard
work and innovation. If you had the right connections, you could conjure
up wealth…from the money itself.

‘ By the sweat of your brow you will earn your bread, ’ it was commanded
in the Bible.

So it had been — with brief interruptions of monetary experiments and
adventures — since the expulsion of Adam and Eve from Eden.

But now, with this new system created on this day 45 years ago, money is
gotten sweat-free, in the air-conditioned towers of the big banks…

…and used by the ‘Parasitocracy’ to rule the nation.

More to come…

Regards,

Bill Bonner,

For The Daily Reckoning, Australia




From grarpamp at gmail.com  Tue Aug 16 11:45:25 2016
From: grarpamp at gmail.com (grarpamp)
Date: Tue, 16 Aug 2016 14:45:25 -0400
Subject: Die Zeit interviews Appelbaum ioerror
In-Reply-To: <CAD2Ti2-NXpt9293VJV95k+7Z0eh68j8iEJRjURJZgvgYQy4fYg@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAD2Ti2-NXpt9293VJV95k+7Z0eh68j8iEJRjURJZgvgYQy4fYg@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAD2Ti2__y2Lre6Gw2YhBO5R5qQA5AiYz64PGOD8h8NM99t36zg@mail.gmail.com>

On 8/10/16, grarpamp <grarpamp at gmail.com> wrote:
> http://www.zeit.de/kultur/2016-08/jacob-appelbaum-rape-allegations-contradictions
> 10. August 2016, 10:30 Uhr

http://www.zeit.de/kultur/2016-08/jacob-appelbaum-rape-sexual-abuse-allegations
13. August 2016, 13:36 Uhr
The American internet icon Jacob Appelbaum has been accused of
sexually abusing female activists in Berlin. The episode has revealed
deep cracks in the hacker community...

link credit:
https://lists.torproject.org/pipermail/tor-talk/2016-August/041999.html




From jwcase at gmail.com  Tue Aug 16 11:47:38 2016
From: jwcase at gmail.com (Joshua Case)
Date: Tue, 16 Aug 2016 14:47:38 -0400
Subject: [WAR] A brief bit of Hillary history.
In-Reply-To: <917690462.6021877.1471371999666.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com>
References: <20160816150853.GA16816@x220-a02>
 <7FD4B3D2-FD18-4F98-AD3C-EA87B9138C61@synfin.org>
 <CAN9H=iJoiC23E9KczY6SEZdyhWpMFMg=Cc=1JNKOZpqQWh7zoQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <E145D632-BE6C-4CEB-A17B-8F45BC8CAF1A@synfin.org>
 <917690462.6021877.1471371999666.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <5323B6F3-2FC2-4454-A987-A50ADBC0CC06@gmail.com>

Lord Kelvin, died in 1907, before there were "accurate computer models" that could show anything at all. Certainly that makes this a meager and unsatisfactory quote. 

There is abundant research, of the scientifically valid kind, showing that the climate is changing, and indeed it would be strange if it were not. You are illustrating the op's point nicely, w/r/t politicized scientific bullshit. 

> On Aug 16, 2016, at 2:26 PM, jim bell <jdb10987 at yahoo.com> wrote:
> 
> 
> 
> From: John Newman <jnn at synfin.org>
> >I disagree, vehemently.  Global warming is not a red herring.  Permafrost is melting, oceans are rising and acidifying, and the future for big >coastal cities is looking very bleak indeed.  There is a scientific consensus on this issue.
> 
> I don't see how there can be "scientific consensus" unless there are accurate computer models which show how up climate temperature increases as a product of addition of CO2 to the atmosphere.  Both qualitatively and quantitatively.  How much do these problems represent?
> 
> From Lord Kelvin:
> 
> “When you can measure what you are speaking about, and express it in numbers, you know something about it, when you cannot express it in numbers, your knowledge is of a meager and unsatisfactory kind; it may be the beginning of knowledge, but you have scarely, in your thoughts advanced to the stage of science.”
> 
> http://www.goodreads.com/quotes/166961-when-you-can-measure-what-you-are-speaking-about-and
> 
> There is also the prospect of adding SO2 to the high atmosphere to counteract heating, which could be a very cheap solution.
> 
>             Jim Bell
> 
> 
> 
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From zen at freedbms.net  Mon Aug 15 22:07:19 2016
From: zen at freedbms.net (Zenaan Harkness)
Date: Tue, 16 Aug 2016 15:07:19 +1000
Subject: Your guide to some bullshit - was Re: Your Guide to the Operational Launch of the NWO in 2016 (Update 3.1 - Putin's Drive to
	Militarize the UN)
Message-ID: <mailman.4617.1575949205.62801.testlist@lists.cpunks.org>

Pinning the following:
 - push for the NWO
 - militarisation of the UN

upon Russian president Putin, is absolute rubbish!

That is nothing but a Soros and North Atlantic oligarch spin story to
deflect the conspiracy minded away from their absolute treachery of the
people, manifestation of evil in so many forms and genuine intent to
provoke the world (Russia, China, anyone who will react to their highly
offensive and evil actions such as coups from Yugoslavia (destroyed) to
Ukraine (may as well be considered destroyed - but certainly not by
Russia), and the overthrowing of so many nations, from Iraq to Libya and
Syria.


The games of the elite are an absolutely monstrosity, a blight on
humans, a blight on this world.


Trying to pin all that on Putin, who is the only man still standing who
stands AGAINST the USA hegemonic evil, is the height of idiocy!

(To get an idea of the stand Putin is successfully making, uniting many
"Eurasion block" countries and "the global south" as Pepe Escobar calls
it - just witness those who tried before Putin tried, to sell their oil
in any currency other than the "almighty" US Dollar:
 - Saddam Hussein started selling oil in Euros (Iraqi president, murdered
   by North American 'elite' forces)
 - Muammar Qaddafi was building an Arab world gold backed "dinar"
   currency, and intended to sell oil in this gold dinar


See for example - absolutely damning emails, thousands of them, here's
just one particularly good example of a badly damning email:
http://thefreethoughtproject.com/declassified-emails-reveal-natos-true-motive-topple-gaddafi-stop-creation-gold-backed-african-currency/

An exerpt:
   The email identifies French President Nicholas Sarkozy as leading the
   attack on Libya with five specific purposes in mind: to obtain Libyan
   oil, ensure French influence in the region, increase Sarkozy’s
   reputation domestically, assert French military power, and to prevent
   Gaddafi’s influence in what is considered “Francophone Africa.”

   Most astounding is the lengthy section delineating the huge threat
   that Gaddafi’s gold and silver reserves, estimated at “143 tons of
   gold, and a similar amount in silver,” posed to the French franc
   (CFA) circulating as a prime African currency.

And more - Qaddafi was the best thing the pan Arab world had ever seen:
http://www.foreignpolicyjournal.com/2016/01/06/new-hillary-emails-reveal-true-motive-for-libya-intervention/
https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/cifamerica/2011/apr/21/libya-muammar-gaddafi
https://www.rt.com/news/economy-oil-gold-libya/
http://www.thedailybell.com/editorials/anthony-wile-gaddafi-planned-gold-dinar-now-under-attack/
http://www.thenewamerican.com/economy/markets/item/4630-gadhafi-s-gold-money-plan-would-have-devastated-dollar
http://www.theecologist.org/News/news_analysis/2987399/why_qaddafi_had_to_go_african_gold_oil_and_the_challenge_to_monetary_imperialism.html
https://news.vice.com/article/libyan-oil-gold-and-qaddafi-the-strange-email-sidney-blumenthal-sent-hillary-clinton-in-2011
http://www.silverbearcafe.com/private/05.11/dinar.html

And as ruthlessly capitalistically blunt as it gets:
http://www.oil-price.net/en/articles/gaddafi-legacy-of-libya-oil-deals.php

(Funny - even the MSM doesn't try to hide the facts on this one.)

And more - the Syrian angle, with Iran and Iraq to Syria pipeline:
http://www.dailykos.com/story/2013/9/8/1237500/-The-PetroDollar-Why-Syria
http://www.globalresearch.ca/the-libyan-war-american-power-and-the-decline-of-the-petrodollar-system/24542
http://www.rationalskepticism.org/conspiracy-theories/libyan-proposed-currency-change-caused-war-t25324.html
"Iraq nets handsome profit by dumping dollar for euro":
https://www.theguardian.com/business/2003/feb/16/iraq.theeuro
http://www.monetary.org/was-the-iraqi-shift-to-euro-currency-to-real-reason-for-war/2010/12
http://www.counterpunch.org/2013/03/22/the-usa-attacked-iraq-because-saddam-had-wd/
http://content.time.com/time/magazine/article/0,9171,998512,00.html
"Iraq: Baghdad Moves To Euro":
http://www.rferl.org/content/article/1095057.html
"The Real Reasons Why Iran is the Next Target: The Emerging Euro":
http://www.globalresearch.ca/articles/CLA410A.html
http://www.resilience.org/stories/2005-08-08/petrodollar-warfare-dollars-euros-and-upcoming-iranian-oil-bourse
http://www.thirdworldtraveler.com/Iraq/Iraq_dollar_vs_euro.html

And more - more Syria, more pipelines, more war:
http://www.news.com.au/world/middle-east/is-the-fight-over-a-gas-pipeline-fuelling-the-worlds-bloodiest-conflict/news-story/74efcba9554c10bd35e280b63a9afb74
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iran-Iraq-Syria_pipeline
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Qatar-Turkey_pipeline
http://www.globalresearch.ca/the-secret-stupid-saudi-us-deal-on-syria/5410130
http://www.ecowatch.com/syria-another-pipeline-war-1882180532.html
https://ftmdaily.com/what-jerry-thinks/whysyria/
http://www.counterpunch.org/2015/12/08/syria-ultimate-pipelineistan-war/
http://atimes.com/2016/06/saudi-arabia-and-turkeys-pipeline-wars-in-yemen-and-syria/
http://www.zerohedge.com/news/2015-09-10/competing-gas-pipelines-are-fueling-syrian-war-migrant-crisis
http://www.veteranstoday.com/2016/02/24/rfk-jr-isis-created-by-washington-over-syria-pipeline-refusal/
https://www.theguardian.com/environment/earth-insight/2013/aug/30/syria-chemical-attack-war-intervention-oil-gas-energy-pipelines

And more - Yugoslavia destroyed over oil:
https://www.wsws.org/en/articles/1999/05/stat-m24.html
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Adria_oil_pipeline
http://www.cnn.com/US/9904/20/us.kosovo.01/
http://historum.com/speculative-history/34837-oil-cause-ex-yugoslavia-wars.html
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2001/jul/01/balkans.warcrimes2
"Yugoslavia Exports of Crude Oil and Petroleum Products by ..."
https://www.eia.gov/dnav/pet/PET_MOVE_EXPC_DC_NUS-NYO_MBBLPD_M.htm
https://www.eia.gov/dnav/pet/PET_MOVE_EXPC_DC_NUS-NYO_MBBL_A.htm
http://mehring.com/nato-war-with-yugo.html
http://www.globalresearch.ca/articles/GER108A.html
http://www.thirdworldtraveler.com/Yugoslavia/Yugoslavia_ShockTherapy.html
http://www.emperors-clothes.com/analysis/corridor.htm

And the latest round of tackling the USA hegemony, this time, for the
first time, successfully:
http://www.pravdareport.com/business/finance/17-05-2016/134444-russia_china_gold-0/
http://www.globalresearch.ca/the-collapse-of-the-western-fiat-monetary-system-may-have-begun-china-russia-and-the-reemergence-of-gold-backed-currencies/5521107
http://sputniknews.com/politics/20160330/1037221433/gold-russia-china-dedollarization.html
http://www.mining.com/web/crumbling-u-s-empire-drives-russia-china-to-move-into-gold/
http://russia-insider.com/en/node/14386

And a final link for those who just can't, just can't,
just can't get e-nou-ough - :D - enjoy:
http://www.marketslant.com/articles/putin-short-bonds-long-gold


There is a bloody big crash on the way, and Putin and Russia and those
with that second brain cell are preparing for. That is prudent. It is
the Western oligarchs who have created this monstrous mess that is about
to come, about to hit a lot of people in an extremely intense way - I
put it at 2020 at the latest, since by about 2024, the USA government's
tax receipts will no longer cover their interest repayments (not to
mention any capital repayment), and so, mathematically, this next crash,
just like 1929, is mathematically certain, engineered to be exactly this
way. And it sure wasn't Putin who created it.


So, in conclusion:

   redifininggod.com

and

   "Belle <abelle1"

are either intentionally or unintentionally, puppets of the NWO itself,

and promulgating   BULLSHIT   for those who don't think for themselves.


Lap them up at your own stupidity trough..


Perhaps someone with at least a second brain cell can find something
based on facts. It's not hard to find. My second brain cell's asleep
right now, so I'll leave that to someone with a few spare minutes to
find even more facts, more sane analysis of the situation.


Be gone, fools!
Zenaan



On Tue, Aug 16, 2016 at 01:34:10PM +1000, Jim wrote:
> 
> ----- Original Message ----- 
> From: Mark B 
> To: undisclosed-recipients: 
> Sent: Tuesday, August 16, 2016 9:30 AM
> Subject: Fwd: Fw: [Shared Post] Your Guide to the Operational Launch of the NWO in 2016 (Update 3.1 - Putin's Drive to Militarize the UN)
> 
> 
> Interesting expose about coming launch of NWO! Am directing my energy into bringing about its failure and destruction.
> M
> 
> 
> 
> ...Good morning Ladies and Gentlemen, welcome aboard. Please take you seats and familiarize yourself with the Guide...to the Operational Launch of the NWO in 2016. With Love, Always, A xoxoxo
> 
> 
> ----- Forwarded message -----
> From: Belle <abelle1
> To: abelle
> Date: Mon, 15 Aug 2016 22:46:36 +0000
> Subject: [Shared Post] Your Guide t
> 
> Your Guide to the Operational Launch of the NWO in 2016 (Update 3.1 - Putin's Drive to Militarize the UN)
> 
> http://redefininggod.com/2016/08/your-guide-to-the-operational-launch-of-the-nwo-in-2016/
> 
> 
> _______

----- End forwarded message -----




From jnn at synfin.org  Tue Aug 16 12:09:53 2016
From: jnn at synfin.org (John Newman)
Date: Tue, 16 Aug 2016 15:09:53 -0400
Subject: [WAR] A brief bit of Hillary history.
In-Reply-To: <917690462.6021877.1471371999666.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com>
References: <20160816150853.GA16816@x220-a02>
 <7FD4B3D2-FD18-4F98-AD3C-EA87B9138C61@synfin.org>
 <CAN9H=iJoiC23E9KczY6SEZdyhWpMFMg=Cc=1JNKOZpqQWh7zoQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <E145D632-BE6C-4CEB-A17B-8F45BC8CAF1A@synfin.org>
 <917690462.6021877.1471371999666.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <1471374593.4162.8.camel@synfin.org>

On Tue, 2016-08-16 at 18:26 +0000, jim bell wrote:

> 
> I don't see how there can be "scientific consensus" unless there are
> accurate computer models which show how up climate temperature
> increases as a product of addition of CO2 to the atmosphere.  Both
> qualitatively and quantitatively.  How much do these problems
> represent?
> 

I feel like you have your head in the sand. I mean, are you serious?
There are all sorts of computer models that have shown this
relationship.

https://www.skepticalscience.com/climate-models.htm



> 
> There is also the prospect of adding SO2 to the high atmosphere to
> counteract heating, which could be a very cheap solution.
> 

Yes, hopefully we can solve the problem we've created with better
science. I have some hope that we can. But I wouldn't bet on it.

--
John






From zen at freedbms.net  Mon Aug 15 22:10:08 2016
From: zen at freedbms.net (Zenaan Harkness)
Date: Tue, 16 Aug 2016 15:10:08 +1000
Subject: [RUS] [MONEY] Fw: Your guide to some bullshit - was Re: Your Guide
 to the Operational Launch of the NWO in 2016 (Update 3.1 - Putin's Drive to
 Militarize the UN)
Message-ID: <20160816051008.GD27807@x220-a02>

The email way down at the bottom really got me going.
Zenaan


----- Forwarded message from Zenaan Harkness <zen at freedbms.net> -----


From zen at freedbms.net  Mon Aug 15 22:20:39 2016
From: zen at freedbms.net (Zenaan Harkness)
Date: Tue, 16 Aug 2016 15:20:39 +1000
Subject: software - multiple version installs (any distro developers here?)
Message-ID: <20160816052039.GF27807@x220-a02>

Any distro developers here? I just want to float an idea with a couple
folks before throwing it out publicly - I'm sure this has been thunked
before, but I'd like to see the libre unix software ecosystem move
forward on this.

Firstly, witness the glory of /opt :

$ tree /opt -L 3
/opt
├── bin
│   ├── eclipse -> ../e/eclipse/eclipse
│   ├── libreoffice -> ../l/libreoffice/program/soffice
│   ├── lo -> libreoffice
│   ├── pg -> ../p/pg/pg  # hypothetical
│   ├── soffice -> libreoffice
│   └── vuze -> ../v/vuze/latest/vuze/vuze
├── e
│   ├── eclipse -> eclipse-4.6
│   ├── eclipse-4.6
│   │   ├── artifacts.xml
│   │   ├── configuration
│   │   ├── eclipse
│   │   ├── icon.xpm
│   │   ├── plugins
│   │   └── readme
│   └── eclipse-themes
├── l
│   ├── libreoffice -> libreoffice5.2
│   ├── libreoffice4.8
│   │   ├── CREDITS.fodt
│   │   ├── help
│   │   └── program
│   └── libreoffice5.2
│       ├── CREDITS.fodt
│       ├── help
│       ├── LICENSE
│       ├── LICENSE.html
│       ├── presets
│       ├── program
│       └── share
├── p
│   └── pg -> postgresql
└── v
    └── vuze
        ├── 5600
        └── latest -> 5600


So we see this particular /opt/bin is a (admittedly small in my personal
example) symlink farm, pointing out to various versions of various
installed software.

Also, it is structured like a Debian style package pool, with
directories {a..z} to contain the various (manually in this case)
installed software.

With just a smattering of /etc/.. based meta files, .deb meta files and
tool awareness, a distro could install all software in this form - say
into /usr/a/.. /usr/b/.. etc., and /usr/lib, /usr/bin and /usr/share
become symlink farms.

The primary benefits I see are:
 - simple multiple versions install of same software/ library/ etc
 - different software can easily depend on different versions of
   other software/ library/ etc, since everything can easily be parallel
   installed
 - existing Unixy standards can be more easily maintained (/bin /usr
   /lib) with symlink farms
 - end user can much more easily maintain their own custom /opt/bin to
   override version preferences rather than learning arcane per distro
   package incantations

Main problems:
 - it's a partially new install/ FHS system (though a multi-year
   transition shouldn't be particularly painful afaict)
 - really needs to become part of FHS, and therefore cross-distro
 - therefore needs buy-in from >1 distro, or at least a non-intrusive
   transition plan/ capability

Does anyone foresee any other particular problems with this concept?




From zen at freedbms.net  Mon Aug 15 22:22:04 2016
From: zen at freedbms.net (Zenaan Harkness)
Date: Tue, 16 Aug 2016 15:22:04 +1000
Subject: NSA Hacked? Really?
In-Reply-To: <57b27f39.b529c80a.bdce3.74d7@mx.google.com>
References: <0de5ca6c-f92e-6ce7-e289-c9e3b999be83@jpunix.net>
 <57b27f39.b529c80a.bdce3.74d7@mx.google.com>
Message-ID: <20160816052204.GG27807@x220-a02>

On Mon, Aug 15, 2016 at 11:54:21PM -0300, juan wrote:
> On Mon, 15 Aug 2016 22:32:00 +0000
> Crypto <crypto at jpunix.net> wrote:
> 
> > Reddit is going nutz over articles like this...
> > 
> > http://motherboard.vice.com/read/hackers-hack-nsa-linked-equation-group
> > 
> 
> 	" hackers are...asking for 1 million bitcoin
> 
> 	lol! this plot is even more stupid than the hollywood-scripted
> 	9-11 'terrorist' scam...

Next will be some lame arse USA politician proclaiming "this is why we
need the following crypto backdoor legislation"  :)




From zen at freedbms.net  Mon Aug 15 22:32:39 2016
From: zen at freedbms.net (Zenaan Harkness)
Date: Tue, 16 Aug 2016 15:32:39 +1000
Subject: Announcing Zenbot 3, your new BTC/ETH/LTC trading bot, now with
 live candlestick graph and plugin-based architecture
In-Reply-To: <0101015691b8c6bd-2391f66c-e6e8-4732-bc87-68d3ab089e46-000000@us-west-2.amazonses.com>
References: <0101015691b8c6bd-2391f66c-e6e8-4732-bc87-68d3ab089e46-000000@us-west-2.amazonses.com>
Message-ID: <20160816053239.GH27807@x220-a02>

On Tue, Aug 16, 2016 at 05:00:21AM +0000, Carlos Rodriguez wrote:
> 
> zenbot is an automated cryptocurrency trading bot. It runs on node.js and MongoDB and is fully open-sourced. A plugin architecture is included that allows any exchange, trade strategy, or currency pair to be supported.
> 
> 	• Out of the box, zenbot is an AI-powered trade advisor (gives you buy or sell signals while watching live data).
> 	• Default support for GDAX is included, so if you have a GDAX account, enable bot trades by simply putting your GDAX API key in config.js and setting what currency pair to trade.
> 	• Default support for other exchanges is ongoing.
> 	• Trade strategy is fully exposed in the config file. This allows you to have full control over the bot’s actions and logic. For example, instead of trading on GDAX, you could trade on a different exchange or currency pair by implementing a few lines of JavaScript.
> 	• A live candlestick graph is provided via a built-in HTTP server.
> 
> More: https://s8f.org/zenbot.html

Awesome - thanks for the info :)
Zen




From jnn at synfin.org  Tue Aug 16 13:06:52 2016
From: jnn at synfin.org (John Newman)
Date: Tue, 16 Aug 2016 16:06:52 -0400
Subject: [liberationtech] Tor Browser 6.0.4 is ready for testing
In-Reply-To: <1dc29639-f495-9b4f-1468-6b2ec99cf275@gmail.com>
References: <CANhci9H3P-9UmszeP6j1OKTq05uGhv3Oq2k7-P-X6PPJcThjDg@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAG2tMp76z7hz4iLTf_V7h_jQKdT8BZO2CGRHHhYiTp0CKaakUg@mail.gmail.com>
 <a4258779-e78d-a646-ec68-875743108ed9@pilobilus.net>
 <57b2867a.442eed0a.beaae.8538@mx.google.com>
 <7158b65f-9484-2327-f110-a35d5c81ca2b@pilobilus.net>
 <57b29329.d434c80a.ffb49.83e8@mx.google.com>
 <1dc29639-f495-9b4f-1468-6b2ec99cf275@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <1D908DF2-F025-4A3C-9D9C-4BC9DDE86D71@synfin.org>


> On Aug 16, 2016, at 2:23 PM, Marina Brown <catskillmarina at gmail.com> wrote:
> 
>> On 08/16/2016 12:19 AM, juan wrote:
>> On Mon, 15 Aug 2016 23:59:21 -0400
>> Steve Kinney <admin at pilobilus.net> wrote:
>> 
>>> Belief makes people stupid, in the sense that it makes them think in
>>> circles as necessary to support the belief.  I do not "believe" that
>>> someone ratted Chelsea out, but I do consider it very likely.
>> 
>> 
>>    So what. 
>> 
>>    And you didn't really address my points, especially the fact
>>    that it is safer to physically mail stuff.
> 
> Are you aware that all mail in the US is scanned at central points and
> subjected to a fairly high level of scrutiny. Anonymous mail is more
> highly scrutinized.
> 
> --- Marina Brown
> 

Awful lot of dope makes its way through USPS, with TOR as the medium for setting up delivery, every day all day... Just log in to alphabay and browse around ... ;)

But, who knows how long they'll last, there might be sealed indictments already... 

--
John






From grarpamp at gmail.com  Tue Aug 16 13:17:21 2016
From: grarpamp at gmail.com (grarpamp)
Date: Tue, 16 Aug 2016 16:17:21 -0400
Subject: Exchange / Trading / Analysis Software [re: Zenbot3 BTC/ETH/LTC bot]
Message-ID: <CAD2Ti29HwFu1fQ8VBFkb6c+Qs8cLQjS1YOBY5Vbh42QtdQ4ZnA@mail.gmail.com>

On 8/16/16, Carlos Rodriguez <carlos at s8f.org> wrote:
> zenbot is an automated cryptocurrency trading bot. It runs on node.js and
> MongoDB and is fully open-sourced. A plugin architecture is included that
> allows any exchange, trade strategy, or currency pair to be supported.
>
> 	• Default support for GDAX is included, so if you have a GDAX account,
> 	• Default support for other exchanges is ongoing.
> instead of trading on GDAX, you could trade on a different exchange
>
> More: https://s8f.org/zenbot.html

https://github.com/carlos8f/zenbot

As far as opensource goes...
- There's the above sort of thing on the user side that interfaces
with an existing exchange to place orders, etc.
- There are some tradedesk like things for analysis of
market feeds and history from an exchange.

Those two are sometimes blended together in one tool.

Then the third component is...

What software is out there that implements an exchange itself?
Be it for currency pairs, stocks, or commodity trade floor.
Currency pairs being the primary example above.

List software for centralized models...

List software for distributed models...

Note that a distributed "marketplace" where users buy and sell
"things", is not really an exchange engine itself, though it may
serve similar end purpose. Whereas an ethereum program might
be considered a true engine, an API, perhaps collecting, advertising
and executing buy / sell orders, without need for user to see or
deal individually with all the other users making up the liquidity.





From grarpamp at gmail.com  Tue Aug 16 13:59:57 2016
From: grarpamp at gmail.com (grarpamp)
Date: Tue, 16 Aug 2016 16:59:57 -0400
Subject: Weed, USPS, Tor... cypherpunk [was: Tor Browser]
Message-ID: <CAD2Ti2-tU69EMomfWxAkT4wSmxz=rf-a9BOiZKqvMJDLf7UZww@mail.gmail.com>

On 8/16/16, John Newman <jnn at synfin.org> wrote:
> Awful lot of dope makes its way through USPS, with TOR as the medium for
> setting up delivery, every day all day... Just log in to alphabay and browse
> around ... ;)
>
> But, who knows how long they'll last, there might be sealed indictments
> already...

Great thing is... this is all testing a whole lot of new ground.
>From anonymous overlay networks, delivery / drop models,
comms tools, law enforcement, crypto, law itself, politics,
leaks, hacking the IoT, privacy, etc...
And it's getting faster, you only have to wait a few years
to get a rough early status of each new iteration.

Overall, it's exactly what should happen, and it's been a
long time coming.

PGP, 2600, and mixmaster were just some of the first forays,
There's so much more to come, and to be done...
be it for the world, or even just the peace pipe at 4:20.




From juan.g71 at gmail.com  Tue Aug 16 13:14:31 2016
From: juan.g71 at gmail.com (juan)
Date: Tue, 16 Aug 2016 17:14:31 -0300
Subject: [liberationtech] Tor Browser 6.0.4 is ready for testing
In-Reply-To: <c6e3544d-33a4-45a1-92d8-58d2a6de46fb@riseup.net>
References: <3694c392ee49612e86e1eab63f730172.squirrel@_>
 <c6e3544d-33a4-45a1-92d8-58d2a6de46fb@riseup.net>
Message-ID: <57b372fe.c476370a.72e7a.2c29@mx.google.com>

On Tue, 16 Aug 2016 08:00:34 -0700
Rayzer <rayzer at riseup.net> wrote:


> 
> I've run tails 


	So, the torbot rayzer has now switched his propaganda efforts
	from tor to tails, a lesser known product of the tor
	corporation. Ah, rayzer is such a jewel of the
	'progressive'...pentagon establishment.







From theyralfeds at mail2tor.com  Tue Aug 16 10:38:06 2016
From: theyralfeds at mail2tor.com (theyralfeds at mail2tor.com)
Date: Tue, 16 Aug 2016 17:38:06 -0000
Subject: [liberationtech] Tor Browser 6.0.4 is ready for testing
Message-ID: <6a3c13d0a8714ad27745564bc8bbdb4e.squirrel@_>

> Rayzer:
> cached in hardware

Hack self and see all.

> darkweb kiddieporn

How dare, sir.

> tor or tails

They are all feds.

So is you, seems.





From juan.g71 at gmail.com  Tue Aug 16 13:39:56 2016
From: juan.g71 at gmail.com (juan)
Date: Tue, 16 Aug 2016 17:39:56 -0300
Subject: US drug policy -> maintains the class divide
In-Reply-To: <1471360027.4162.3.camel@synfin.org>
References: <CAOsGNSTmdOV8g+3sCtF0NewLu2F33=SSgjgVp2SwCkPvwxWEbA@mail.gmail.com>
 <565a8ace.834b370a.f6cb1.0c8d@mx.google.com>
 <1471360027.4162.3.camel@synfin.org>
Message-ID: <57b378f2.a32fc80a.a3958.43bc@mx.google.com>

On Tue, 16 Aug 2016 11:07:07 -0400
John Newman <jnn at synfin.org> wrote:


> US drug laws, the ridiculous sentencing guidelines and mandatory
> minimums, the blatantly racist enforcement (and extra-judicial
> killings), and the resulting American gulag (highest per-capita
> incarceration rate in the world) are just a little twist on slavery,
> which "ended" during the Civil War....

	Exactly right. 

	And according to the establishment, such legal system is
	the non-plus-ultra of 'liberal' 'democracy' and grounded
	on 'inalienable' 'human' 'rights'.	

> 
> John
> 





From juan.g71 at gmail.com  Tue Aug 16 13:48:23 2016
From: juan.g71 at gmail.com (juan)
Date: Tue, 16 Aug 2016 17:48:23 -0300
Subject: [WAR] A brief bit of Hillary history.
In-Reply-To: <E145D632-BE6C-4CEB-A17B-8F45BC8CAF1A@synfin.org>
References: <20160816150853.GA16816@x220-a02>
 <7FD4B3D2-FD18-4F98-AD3C-EA87B9138C61@synfin.org>
 <CAN9H=iJoiC23E9KczY6SEZdyhWpMFMg=Cc=1JNKOZpqQWh7zoQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <E145D632-BE6C-4CEB-A17B-8F45BC8CAF1A@synfin.org>
Message-ID: <57b37aeb.ed35c80a.67869.3a47@mx.google.com>

On Tue, 16 Aug 2016 13:55:24 -0400
John Newman <jnn at synfin.org> wrote:

> I disagree, vehemently.  Global warming is not a red herring.
> Permafrost is melting, oceans are rising and acidifying, and the
> future for big coastal cities is looking very bleak indeed.  There is
> a scientific consensus on this issue.

	
	Truth is not reached by 'consensus'. That's not science but
	groupthink.

	Also, it's not called global warming anymore. The new name
	which has been in use for more than a couple of years is
	'climate change'. And of course the climate is changing, It has
	been chaning for millions of years and it will keep changing.

	It just so happens that 'climate change' is a perfect excuse
	for government to control every single movement of every person
	on the planet. Way better than 'terrorism'.

	Jason does have a point about pollution. But of course, even the
	'war on pollution' can be used as a tool for political control.

	Another thing : old crony capitalists have recycled themselves
	as green crony capitalists and how they get billions in
	subsidies for being 'green'. 

 
> But yes of course pollution does suck ass...
> 
> --
> John
> 
> > On Aug 16, 2016, at 1:06 PM, Jason McVetta
> > <jason.mcvetta at gmail.com> wrote:
> > 
> >> On Tue, Aug 16, 2016 at 11:44 PM, John <jnn at synfin.org> wrote:
> >> The thing about Trump is he thinks climate change / global warming
> >> is a hoax. 
> > 
> > Here's the thing: global warming is a red herring.  Whether or not
> > anthropogenic climate change is real - dumping pollution into the
> > environment still sucks balls.  So at the behest of the bigmedia
> > propaganda organs, perfectly well-intentioned people on both sides
> > endlessly argue over dodgy, politicized science.  
> > 
> > Yet regardless which side is right about global warming, almost
> > everyone agrees that pollution blows oats and should be reduced.   
> > 





From juan.g71 at gmail.com  Tue Aug 16 14:06:43 2016
From: juan.g71 at gmail.com (juan)
Date: Tue, 16 Aug 2016 18:06:43 -0300
Subject: [liberationtech] Tor Browser 6.0.4 is ready for testing
In-Reply-To: <1dc29639-f495-9b4f-1468-6b2ec99cf275@gmail.com>
References: <CANhci9H3P-9UmszeP6j1OKTq05uGhv3Oq2k7-P-X6PPJcThjDg@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAG2tMp76z7hz4iLTf_V7h_jQKdT8BZO2CGRHHhYiTp0CKaakUg@mail.gmail.com>
 <a4258779-e78d-a646-ec68-875743108ed9@pilobilus.net>
 <57b2867a.442eed0a.beaae.8538@mx.google.com>
 <7158b65f-9484-2327-f110-a35d5c81ca2b@pilobilus.net>
 <57b29329.d434c80a.ffb49.83e8@mx.google.com>
 <1dc29639-f495-9b4f-1468-6b2ec99cf275@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <57b37f39.a32fc80a.a3958.4aed@mx.google.com>

On Tue, 16 Aug 2016 14:23:42 -0400
Marina Brown <catskillmarina at gmail.com> wrote:

> On 08/16/2016 12:19 AM, juan wrote:
> > On Mon, 15 Aug 2016 23:59:21 -0400
> > Steve Kinney <admin at pilobilus.net> wrote:
> > 
> >> Belief makes people stupid, in the sense that it makes them think
> >> in circles as necessary to support the belief.  I do not "believe"
> >> that someone ratted Chelsea out, but I do consider it very likely.
> > 
> > 
> > 	So what. 
> > 
> > 	And you didn't really address my points, especially the fact
> > 	that it is safer to physically mail stuff. 
> > 
> > 
> 
> Are you aware that all mail in the US is scanned at central points and
> subjected to a fairly high level of scrutiny. Anonymous mail is more
> highly scrutinized.


	I don't know all the details, but yes, I've seen some
	discussions by people who mail 'drugs'. But if the sender
	manages to mail a letter/package anonymously, then that's it.
	They can scrutinize the package all they want but won't learn
	much. And can they for instance x-ray all packages and know if
	a package contains, say, a micro sd card? That seems harder to
	do...

	Anyway, my point was that presenting tor as useful and
	'legitimate' because it allegedly was used by Manning strikes me
	as...advertinsing.





> 
> --- Marina Brown
> 
> 
>




From jdb10987 at yahoo.com  Tue Aug 16 11:09:23 2016
From: jdb10987 at yahoo.com (jim bell)
Date: Tue, 16 Aug 2016 18:09:23 +0000 (UTC)
Subject: Hedge fund manager profited from death arbitrage.
References: <1885626805.17266642.1471370963017.JavaMail.yahoo.ref@mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <1885626805.17266642.1471370963017.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com>

https://www.bloomberg.com/view/articles/2016-08-16/hedge-fund-manager-profited-from-death-arbitrage

"A vital function of the financial system is to shift risk, but that is mostly a euphemism. Finance can't make risks go away, or even really move them all that much. When the financial system shifts the risk of X happening from Y to Z, all that means is that Z gives Y money if X happens. If X was going to happen to Y, it's still going to happen to Y. But now Y gets money. Death is a central fact of human existence, the fundamental datum that gives meaning to life, but it is also a risk -- you never know when it will happen! -- and so the financial industry has figured out ways to shift it. Not in any supernatural sense, I mean, but in the regular financial-industry sense: by giving people money when death happens to them. One cannot know for certain how much of a consolation that is.""Another vital function of the financial system is to brutally punish the mispricing of risk through arbitrage. Actually I don't really know how vital that one is, but people are pretty into it. If someone under- or overestimates a risk, someone else will find a way to make them pay for it. That's how markets, even the market for death, stay efficient.""The normal way to shift the risk of death is life insurance -- you die, the insurance company gives you money -- but there are other, more esoteric versions, and they are more susceptible to arbitrage.One version involves "medium and long-term bonds and certificates of deposit ('CDs') that contain 'survivor options' or 'death puts.'" Schematically, the idea is that a financial institution issues a bond that pays back $100 when it matures in 2040 or whatever. But if the buyer of the bond dies, he gets his $100 back immediately, instead of having to wait until 2040. He's still dead, though."[end of partial quote]
AP ('Assassination Politics';  https://cryptome.org/ap.htm  )  can be considered to be 'death arbitrage' with a few key differences:  The person who will die isn't part of the agreement, and doesn't profit when the initial deal is struck, nor later.                  Jim Bell



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From juan.g71 at gmail.com  Tue Aug 16 14:13:16 2016
From: juan.g71 at gmail.com (juan)
Date: Tue, 16 Aug 2016 18:13:16 -0300
Subject: [WAR] A brief bit of Hillary history.
In-Reply-To: <5323B6F3-2FC2-4454-A987-A50ADBC0CC06@gmail.com>
References: <20160816150853.GA16816@x220-a02>
 <7FD4B3D2-FD18-4F98-AD3C-EA87B9138C61@synfin.org>
 <CAN9H=iJoiC23E9KczY6SEZdyhWpMFMg=Cc=1JNKOZpqQWh7zoQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <E145D632-BE6C-4CEB-A17B-8F45BC8CAF1A@synfin.org>
 <917690462.6021877.1471371999666.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com>
 <5323B6F3-2FC2-4454-A987-A50ADBC0CC06@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <57b380c1.962cc80a.665ca.4700@mx.google.com>

On Tue, 16 Aug 2016 14:47:38 -0400
Joshua Case <jwcase at gmail.com> wrote:

> 
> There is abundant research, of the scientifically valid kind, showing
> that the climate is changing, and indeed it would be strange if it
> were not. 

	Yep. So all that 'scientific research' is, if not meaningless,
	pretty much irrelevant. 'Climate change' is a natural fact that
	has been acknowledged by humans for thousands of years. 





From jdb10987 at yahoo.com  Tue Aug 16 11:26:39 2016
From: jdb10987 at yahoo.com (jim bell)
Date: Tue, 16 Aug 2016 18:26:39 +0000 (UTC)
Subject: [WAR] A brief bit of Hillary history.
In-Reply-To: <E145D632-BE6C-4CEB-A17B-8F45BC8CAF1A@synfin.org>
References: <20160816150853.GA16816@x220-a02>
 <7FD4B3D2-FD18-4F98-AD3C-EA87B9138C61@synfin.org>
 <CAN9H=iJoiC23E9KczY6SEZdyhWpMFMg=Cc=1JNKOZpqQWh7zoQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <E145D632-BE6C-4CEB-A17B-8F45BC8CAF1A@synfin.org>
Message-ID: <917690462.6021877.1471371999666.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com>



 From: John Newman <jnn at synfin.org>
>I disagree, vehemently.  Global warming is not a red herring.  Permafrost is melting, oceans are rising and acidifying, and the future for big >coastal cities is looking very bleak indeed.  There is a scientific consensus on this issue.

I don't see how there can be "scientific consensus" unless there are accurate computer models which show how up climate temperature increases as a product of addition of CO2 to the atmosphere.  Both qualitatively and quantitatively.  How much do these problems represent?
>From Lord Kelvin:

“When you can measure what you are speaking about, and express it in numbers, you know something about it, when you cannot express it in numbers, your knowledge is of a meager and unsatisfactory kind; it may be the beginning of knowledge, but you have scarely, in your thoughts advanced to the stage of science.”
http://www.goodreads.com/quotes/166961-when-you-can-measure-what-you-are-speaking-about-and

There is also the prospect of adding SO2 to the high atmosphere to counteract heating, which could be a very cheap solution.
            Jim Bell


  
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From juan.g71 at gmail.com  Tue Aug 16 14:40:57 2016
From: juan.g71 at gmail.com (juan)
Date: Tue, 16 Aug 2016 18:40:57 -0300
Subject: Die Zeit interviews Appelbaum ioerror
In-Reply-To: <CAD2Ti2__y2Lre6Gw2YhBO5R5qQA5AiYz64PGOD8h8NM99t36zg@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAD2Ti2-NXpt9293VJV95k+7Z0eh68j8iEJRjURJZgvgYQy4fYg@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAD2Ti2__y2Lre6Gw2YhBO5R5qQA5AiYz64PGOD8h8NM99t36zg@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <57b38740.05dde90a.a4171.fc23@mx.google.com>

On Tue, 16 Aug 2016 14:45:25 -0400
grarpamp <grarpamp at gmail.com> wrote:

> On 8/10/16, grarpamp <grarpamp at gmail.com> wrote:
> > http://www.zeit.de/kultur/2016-08/jacob-appelbaum-rape-allegations-contradictions
> > 10. August 2016, 10:30 Uhr
> 
> http://www.zeit.de/kultur/2016-08/jacob-appelbaum-rape-sexual-abuse-allegations


	"Ms. Lovecruft describes herself as an "anarchist," like many
	in the community." 

	she and others are nothing but worthless pieces of shit on the
	pentagon's payroll. And they get paid to advance the imperial
	interests of the US state. 

	The idea that such criminals have anything to do with
	'anarchism' deserves the tripleoubleplusplusgood world prize
	of self-parody. 

	Wait, actually it's not self-parody, it's treating the public as
	fucking idiots. And so far 'the public' is obliging.








From afalex169 at gmail.com  Tue Aug 16 08:53:49 2016
From: afalex169 at gmail.com (=?UTF-8?B?0JDQu9C10LrRgdCw0L3QtNGA?=)
Date: Tue, 16 Aug 2016 18:53:49 +0300
Subject: US drug policy -> maintains the class divide
In-Reply-To: <20160816153457.GC16816@x220-a02>
References: <1471360451.4162.6.camel@synfin.org>
 <20160816153457.GC16816@x220-a02>
Message-ID: <CAEm6KbJG68w7SvoC-qEfjtuNDHa_0MQEDVQFS4yVTnPR1L7hvg@mail.gmail.com>

Oh man. That's a piece of great parody. Really great
:D

2016-08-16 18:34 GMT+03:00 Zenaan Harkness <zen at freedbms.net>:
>
> On Tue, Aug 16, 2016 at 11:14:11AM -0400, John Newman wrote:
> > On Tue, 2016-08-16 at 11:07 -0400, John Newman wrote:
> >
> > US drug laws, the ridiculous sentencing guidelines and mandatory
> > > minimums, the blatantly racist enforcement (and extra-judicial
> > > killings), and the resulting American gulag (highest per-capita
> > > incarceration rate in the world) are just a little twist on slavery,
> > > which "ended" during the Civil War....
> > >
> > > John
> > >
> > Hmm.. new mail client, mail sorted backwards, I just realized I
> > responded to a thread from last year :) ... but the point stands,.heh..
>
> That's it son!
>
> You just keep on apologivin for steppin outside that there box now you
> hear me?!
>
> Replyin to emails that's as topical as ever - but hell! They wuz a few,
> months, old! That's just toooo much youse hear me boy!?!?
>
> Get back to your group think an comply now with our expectations of
> normalizin behaviour now - or you WILL be considered ABnormal.
>
>   Take THAT, human plebe!!!
>
> <grumble grumble>Yung whippaschnappas, thinkin they can reply ta
> emails from late last year - what's the dang world comin too?!?!
> <wheeze>Now where's mah dang prozark!???
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From grarpamp at gmail.com  Tue Aug 16 17:45:16 2016
From: grarpamp at gmail.com (grarpamp)
Date: Tue, 16 Aug 2016 20:45:16 -0400
Subject: software - multiple version installs (any distro developers here?)
In-Reply-To: <20160816052039.GF27807@x220-a02>
References: <20160816052039.GF27807@x220-a02>
Message-ID: <CAD2Ti2_33QQRZ8NNTgDaTw3JzPhbGpGJwGWoP3V1gUMtQn4Pkw@mail.gmail.com>

On 8/16/16, Zenaan Harkness <zen at freedbms.net> wrote:
> [symlinks, versioning and stuff]

> I'm sure this has been thunked before

Many times, over many decades, by many people... and been done.

Those users and shops have their entire /usr/local or /opt
(bin sbin lib include share doc etc and so on) as nothing but script
managed symlink trees as means of tagging the active default version.
And keep the multiple program-M.m.r versions on disk therein, which
are manually callable as needed for new testing and legacy use.
With scripts to build, install, and symlink it all. Dependencies,
namespace collisions, runtime issues with ld rpath and friends, and
the whims of program authors... all tend to buzzkill many efforts
there.

Github might have something for you.

There are also variant symlinks:
https://www.dragonflybsd.org/cgi/web-man?command=varsym&section=1
http://leaf.dragonflybsd.org/cgi/web-man?command=varsym.conf&section=5
http://leaf.dragonflybsd.org/cgi/web-man?command=varsym&section=2
https://wiki.freebsd.org/200808DevSummit?action=AttachFile&do=view&target=variant-symlinks-for-freebsd.pdf
https://github.com/drq883/varsym
https://lwn.net/Articles/680705/
https://github.com/onslauth/varsymfs

The "FHS" of a base OS, be it Linux or BSD, typically exclusively
reserve /usr/local for their default package manager, and reserve
/opt for site use. Some sites prefer /opt first in PATH once it's
compiled and installed by competant system admin.

Single letter trees for package installs serve no purpose and are
anti human. There's no performance need to turn the fs into a binary
tree (todays kernels and fs can handle flat dirs many times the
needs of any installed package set). Nor need to turn the fs into
a database, that's what package managers are for.

> I'd like to see the libre unix software ecosystem move forward
> on this.

Nobody wants such a symlink mess in the base system, ever.
And things like pivot root, snapshots, portable processes, rolling
release, vm, jail, layered fs, and patchable kernel are all happening.

Leaving just handling /usr/local...

Most people usually don't have need for multiple versions, just a
current version that works. Even packaging just that is hard and a
lot of work by a lot of people. Thus port / package tools naturally
remain rather simple.

Sure there are issues with limited accomodations for versioning /
site in package managers. So see /opt above. Or roll your own distro,
and packager and reach wide adoption with it.

> arcane per distro package incantations

Until then, excepting some tool and port sharing among Linux
and BSD's, things are exactly this, and wishful thunking.


If troubled on Linux, at least look at the BSD's... their hier's
are cleaner and enforced, partly from not going the "distro" model
of random thunkers.




From mirimir at riseup.net  Tue Aug 16 20:07:59 2016
From: mirimir at riseup.net (Mirimir)
Date: Tue, 16 Aug 2016 21:07:59 -0600
Subject: Hedge fund manager profited from death arbitrage.
In-Reply-To: <1885626805.17266642.1471370963017.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com>
References: <1885626805.17266642.1471370963017.JavaMail.yahoo.ref@mail.yahoo.com>
 <1885626805.17266642.1471370963017.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <6b98df1e-a91a-ca03-62e3-d61566f40422@riseup.net>

On 08/16/2016 12:09 PM, jim bell wrote:

<SNIP>

> AP ('Assassination Politics';  https://cryptome.org/ap.htm  ) can
> be considered to be 'death arbitrage' with a few key differences:
> The person who will die isn't part of the agreement, and doesn't
> profit when the initial deal is struck, nor later.

Ah, but someone with a huge bet on their death could commit suicide, and
so their estate would profit. Or is that against AP rules?





From admin at pilobilus.net  Tue Aug 16 18:15:07 2016
From: admin at pilobilus.net (Steve Kinney)
Date: Tue, 16 Aug 2016 21:15:07 -0400
Subject: [liberationtech] Tor Browser 6.0.4 is ready for testing
In-Reply-To: <57b37f39.a32fc80a.a3958.4aed@mx.google.com>
References: <CANhci9H3P-9UmszeP6j1OKTq05uGhv3Oq2k7-P-X6PPJcThjDg@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAG2tMp76z7hz4iLTf_V7h_jQKdT8BZO2CGRHHhYiTp0CKaakUg@mail.gmail.com>
 <a4258779-e78d-a646-ec68-875743108ed9@pilobilus.net>
 <57b2867a.442eed0a.beaae.8538@mx.google.com>
 <7158b65f-9484-2327-f110-a35d5c81ca2b@pilobilus.net>
 <57b29329.d434c80a.ffb49.83e8@mx.google.com>
 <1dc29639-f495-9b4f-1468-6b2ec99cf275@gmail.com>
 <57b37f39.a32fc80a.a3958.4aed@mx.google.com>
Message-ID: <1f86debd-94ac-dd36-f689-fe47537bfe5e@pilobilus.net>

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1



On 08/16/2016 05:06 PM, juan wrote:

> Anyway, my point was that presenting tor as useful and 'legitimate'
> because it allegedly was used by Manning strikes me 
> as...advertinsing.

Oh lookout-

Legitimacy implies a sanctioning Authority.

:D

Speaking of mail vs. network transport of leakish dox...

The point of failure for a mail order drugs market is the sender:
Receivers are scattered all over and at least "slightly" hard to
identify, if the network side is not breached.  But the sender's
organization is small in number and, if suspected, easy to put a mail
cover on.

The point of failure for a mailed in leaks is the receiver:  The
receiver's location(s) and personnel small in number, and easy to put
a mail cover on.  The receiver might counter this by providing mail
drops and couriers (hopefully) unknown to the opposition, which in
cases like Wikileaks would mean reliance on network security to
transmit a one-time destination address to the prospective leaker.
Again, if the network connection is "secure enough" why not just send
the dox that way?

Numerous variations are possible, of course.  I would not consider
either option a categorically superior one in /all/ cases.  When
security really matters, try to do something new and unexpected as
well as sneaky and well protected.

:o)



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From carlos at s8f.org  Tue Aug 16 14:25:01 2016
From: carlos at s8f.org (Carlos Rodriguez)
Date: Tue, 16 Aug 2016 21:25:01 +0000
Subject: Exchange / Trading / Analysis Software [re: Zenbot3 BTC/ETH/LTC bot]
Message-ID: <01010156953e452c-7cf9ff9e-162a-4646-a44c-56db11b373f5-000000@us-west-2.amazonses.com>

grarpamp:

> What software is out there that implements an exchange itself?
> Be it for currency pairs, stocks, or commodity trade floor.
> Currency pairs being the primary example above.

Centralized model:

http://buttercoin.net/ (old, last commit 2 years ago)

Decentralized:

https://bitsquare.io/ (but it’s not very popular yet, not much trade volume)
http://www.coinffeine.com/ (not much info on it)

Personally I don’t see these programs ever netting enough trade volume to rival top private exchanges. Traders won’t show up if the liquidity isn’t there.




From zen at freedbms.net  Tue Aug 16 04:26:10 2016
From: zen at freedbms.net (Zenaan Harkness)
Date: Tue, 16 Aug 2016 21:26:10 +1000
Subject: DCCC Internal Docs on Primaries in Florida
In-Reply-To: <20160816065203.GB689@sivokote.iziade.m$>
References: <20160816065203.GB689@sivokote.iziade.m$>
Message-ID: <20160816112610.GL27807@x220-a02>

On Tue, Aug 16, 2016 at 09:52:03AM +0300, Georgi Guninski wrote:
> DCCC Internal Docs on Primaries in Florida
> 
> https://guccifer2.wordpress.com/2016/08/15/dccc-internal-docs-on-primaries-in-florida/
> 
> ====
> Here are the DCCC docs on Florida: reports, memos, briefings,
> dossiers, etc. You can have a look at who you are going to elect
> now. It may seem the congressional primaries are also becoming 
> a farce.
> ====
> 
> Released on the same day as the alleged NSA sploits.

With such transparency, USA is slowly approaching what might be
termed democracy and "informed voters" :/




From rsw at jfet.org  Tue Aug 16 21:56:49 2016
From: rsw at jfet.org (Riad S. Wahby)
Date: Tue, 16 Aug 2016 21:56:49 -0700
Subject: software - multiple version installs (any distro developers
 here?)
In-Reply-To: <20160816052039.GF27807@x220-a02>
References: <20160816052039.GF27807@x220-a02>
Message-ID: <20160817045649.tzhp6kr7mhx4y7uz@positron.jfet.org>

Zenaan Harkness <zen at freedbms.net> wrote:
> Any distro developers here? I just want to float an idea with a couple
> folks before throwing it out publicly - I'm sure this has been thunked
> before, but I'd like to see the libre unix software ecosystem move
> forward on this.

A related (but not identical) idea underlies NixOS and GNU GuixSD;
it's probably worth having a look at the way they do things.
    https://nixos.org/wiki/Main_Page

-=rsw



From jnn at synfin.org  Tue Aug 16 19:35:15 2016
From: jnn at synfin.org (John)
Date: Tue, 16 Aug 2016 22:35:15 -0400
Subject: [WAR] A brief bit of Hillary history.
In-Reply-To: <57b380c1.962cc80a.665ca.4700@mx.google.com>
References: <20160816150853.GA16816@x220-a02>
 <7FD4B3D2-FD18-4F98-AD3C-EA87B9138C61@synfin.org>
 <CAN9H=iJoiC23E9KczY6SEZdyhWpMFMg=Cc=1JNKOZpqQWh7zoQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <E145D632-BE6C-4CEB-A17B-8F45BC8CAF1A@synfin.org>
 <917690462.6021877.1471371999666.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com>
 <5323B6F3-2FC2-4454-A987-A50ADBC0CC06@gmail.com>
 <57b380c1.962cc80a.665ca.4700@mx.google.com>
Message-ID: <4F1BFE37-71AB-4FA5-BA11-8F49BA8BDA91@synfin.org>



On August 16, 2016 5:13:16 PM EDT, juan <juan.g71 at gmail.com> wrote:
>On Tue, 16 Aug 2016 14:47:38 -0400
>Joshua Case <jwcase at gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> 
>> There is abundant research, of the scientifically valid kind, showing
>> that the climate is changing, and indeed it would be strange if it
>> were not. 
>
>	Yep. So all that 'scientific research' is, if not meaningless,
>	pretty much irrelevant. 'Climate change' is a natural fact that
>	has been acknowledged by humans for thousands of years. 

Anthropogenic climate change is what we are talking about. At least, it's what im talking about. Not normal natural climate change or even climate change related to non human events e.g. a large asteroid hitting the earth.... Humanity has been and continues to accelerate the rate of change dramatically, and dangerously. 

All that "scientific research" is anything but meaningless. Since when do you put science in quotation marks like it's a big fucking joke?

John
-- 
Sent from my Android device with K-9 Mail. Please excuse my brevity.




From jnn at synfin.org  Tue Aug 16 19:37:05 2016
From: jnn at synfin.org (John)
Date: Tue, 16 Aug 2016 22:37:05 -0400
Subject: [WAR] A brief bit of Hillary history.
In-Reply-To: <20160817004103.GF16816@x220-a02>
References: <20160816150853.GA16816@x220-a02>
 <7FD4B3D2-FD18-4F98-AD3C-EA87B9138C61@synfin.org>
 <CAN9H=iJoiC23E9KczY6SEZdyhWpMFMg=Cc=1JNKOZpqQWh7zoQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <E145D632-BE6C-4CEB-A17B-8F45BC8CAF1A@synfin.org>
 <917690462.6021877.1471371999666.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com>
 <20160817004103.GF16816@x220-a02>
Message-ID: <B0C63D75-05B1-4430-A40C-82A08E1BC6AC@synfin.org>



On August 16, 2016 8:41:03 PM EDT, Zenaan Harkness <zen at freedbms.net> wrote:
>On Tue, Aug 16, 2016 at 06:26:39PM +0000, jim bell wrote:
>>  From: John Newman <jnn at synfin.org>
>> >I disagree, vehemently.  Global warming is not a red herring.
>> > Permafrost is melting, oceans are rising and acidifying, and the
>> >future for big >coastal cities is looking very bleak indeed.  There
>> >is a scientific consensus on this issue.
>> 
>> I don't see how there can be "scientific consensus" unless there are
>> accurate computer models which show how up climate temperature
>> increases as a product of addition of CO2 to the atmosphere.  Both
>> qualitatively and quantitatively.  How much do these problems
>> represent?
>>
>> From Lord Kelvin:
>>
>> “When you can measure what you are speaking about, and express it in
>> numbers, you know something about it, when you cannot express it in
>> numbers, your knowledge is of a meager and unsatisfactory kind; it
>may
>> be the beginning of knowledge, but you have scarely, in your thoughts
>> advanced to the stage of science.”
>>
>http://www.goodreads.com/quotes/166961-when-you-can-measure-what-you-are-speaking-about-and
>> 
>> There is also the prospect of adding SO2 to the high atmosphere to
>> counteract heating, which could be a very cheap solution.
>>             Jim Bell
>
>THANK you!!
>
>"Global warming" gets bandied around as though it is "scientific" or
>even more ridiculously "accepted science".
>
>And another thing !! <waves old wooden walking sticdk> it was always
>called Global Warming, except then it got called Global Anthropogenic
>Temperature Changes, except then it got called Global Climate Change,
>except before in the 60s or 70s (dang, I can't remember which) it was
>called Global Cooling - front page Time Magazine articles an all. Take
>THAT yung whipperyschapperies!
>
>Dang Global Scientific Marketers just can't decide which terms to even
>use - that sure gave me confidence in their certinty!

Har har! Dang ol science it must be a CONSPIRACY yeah that's it!! What has science ever done anyway?

Fucking ridiculous.

-- 
Sent from my Android device with K-9 Mail. Please excuse my brevity.




From jnn at synfin.org  Tue Aug 16 19:55:33 2016
From: jnn at synfin.org (John)
Date: Tue, 16 Aug 2016 22:55:33 -0400
Subject: Weed, USPS, Tor... cypherpunk [was: Tor Browser]
In-Reply-To: <CAD2Ti2-tU69EMomfWxAkT4wSmxz=rf-a9BOiZKqvMJDLf7UZww@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAD2Ti2-tU69EMomfWxAkT4wSmxz=rf-a9BOiZKqvMJDLf7UZww@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <4201A1C8-B701-432B-A201-A719166C57B1@synfin.org>



On August 16, 2016 4:59:57 PM EDT, grarpamp <
>PGP, 2600, and mixmaster were just some of the first forays,
>There's so much more to come, and to be done...
>be it for the world, or even just the peace pipe at 4:20.

I'll hit the bong to that sentiment ;)

John
-- 
Sent from my Android device with K-9 Mail. Please excuse my brevity.




From jason.mcvetta at gmail.com  Tue Aug 16 10:06:36 2016
From: jason.mcvetta at gmail.com (Jason McVetta)
Date: Wed, 17 Aug 2016 00:06:36 +0700
Subject: [WAR] A brief bit of Hillary history.
In-Reply-To: <7FD4B3D2-FD18-4F98-AD3C-EA87B9138C61@synfin.org>
References: <20160816150853.GA16816@x220-a02>
 <7FD4B3D2-FD18-4F98-AD3C-EA87B9138C61@synfin.org>
Message-ID: <CAN9H=iJoiC23E9KczY6SEZdyhWpMFMg=Cc=1JNKOZpqQWh7zoQ@mail.gmail.com>

On Tue, Aug 16, 2016 at 11:44 PM, John <jnn at synfin.org> wrote:

> The thing about Trump is he thinks climate change / global warming is a
> hoax.
>

Here's the thing: global warming is a red herring.  Whether or not
anthropogenic climate change is real - dumping pollution into the
environment still sucks balls.  So at the behest of the bigmedia propaganda
organs, perfectly well-intentioned people on both sides endlessly argue
over dodgy, politicized science.

Yet regardless which side is right about global warming, *almost
everyone* agrees
that pollution blows oats and should be reduced.
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From zen at freedbms.net  Tue Aug 16 08:08:53 2016
From: zen at freedbms.net (Zenaan Harkness)
Date: Wed, 17 Aug 2016 01:08:53 +1000
Subject: [WAR] A brief bit of Hillary history.
Message-ID: <20160816150853.GA16816@x220-a02>

My question was, is and shall continue to be, who of the various
candidates in the upcoming USA elections, who might get elected to run
the USA war machine, would be the least likely candidate to push Russia
and or China and or the rest of the world into World War 3, when the
economic crunch time for North America finally hits the fan.

We know a massive global financial crash is coming, and in previous
points of financial collapse, history shows us an almost certainty of a
major war following.

This bodes EXTREMELY PRECARIOUSLY for all of us on this little blue
planet, and suggests that those who vote in the upcoming North American
elections ought think carefully about the question above.

Those who are onlookers might consider being in contact with anyone they
know who will be involved/ voting in the upcoming USA elections, and
discover their thoughts on this fundamental question - who is most and
who is least likely to start World War 3.

Also, look into the preference voting system (like we also have in
Australia) if you will be voting, and figure out how your candidate's
votes might be applied to other candidates, should your chosen candidate
not receive enough votes to be elected. That, or choose your own
preferences!

Be informed, and let's do our bit towards avoiding World War 3 - if this
issue of the potential for the next world war is not handled by us
humans, we may just find that sometime in the next 4 years, that we are
all faced with a reality where NO OTHER QUESTION EVEN MATTERS, and it's
too late to argue or say sorry or I told you so or anything else so
pathetic in the face of the lack of the action required to have stopped
the problem in the first place.

Good luck fellow humans,
Zenaan



----- Forwarded message -----

Subject: FW: nothing has changed! they are all the same.

http://jacksonville.com/reason/fact-check/2014-03-08/story/fact-check-was-hillary-clinton-fired-watergate-investigation

----- End forwarded message -----
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From zen at freedbms.net  Tue Aug 16 08:34:57 2016
From: zen at freedbms.net (Zenaan Harkness)
Date: Wed, 17 Aug 2016 01:34:57 +1000
Subject: US drug policy -> maintains the class divide
In-Reply-To: <1471360451.4162.6.camel@synfin.org>
References: <1471360451.4162.6.camel@synfin.org>
Message-ID: <20160816153457.GC16816@x220-a02>

On Tue, Aug 16, 2016 at 11:14:11AM -0400, John Newman wrote:
> On Tue, 2016-08-16 at 11:07 -0400, John Newman wrote:
> 
> US drug laws, the ridiculous sentencing guidelines and mandatory
> > minimums, the blatantly racist enforcement (and extra-judicial
> > killings), and the resulting American gulag (highest per-capita
> > incarceration rate in the world) are just a little twist on slavery,
> > which "ended" during the Civil War....
> > 
> > John
> > 
> Hmm.. new mail client, mail sorted backwards, I just realized I
> responded to a thread from last year :) ... but the point stands,.heh..

That's it son!

You just keep on apologivin for steppin outside that there box now you
hear me?!

Replyin to emails that's as topical as ever - but hell! They wuz a few,
months, old! That's just toooo much youse hear me boy!?!?

Get back to your group think an comply now with our expectations of
normalizin behaviour now - or you WILL be considered ABnormal.

  Take THAT, human plebe!!!

<grumble grumble>Yung whippaschnappas, thinkin they can reply ta
emails from late last year - what's the dang world comin too?!?!
<wheeze>Now where's mah dang prozark!???




From carimachet at gmail.com  Tue Aug 16 17:43:56 2016
From: carimachet at gmail.com (Cari Machet)
Date: Wed, 17 Aug 2016 03:43:56 +0300
Subject: [liberationtech] Interesting things in keyservers
In-Reply-To: <20160816235644.GA20698@x220-a02>
References: <20130721092251.GB29404@leitl.org>
 <20160816235644.GA20698@x220-a02>
Message-ID: <CAGRDzQWK-ggRQV2pSsRiRv8cNC_5THstwX9_1dj3mQNcxbPAKw@mail.gmail.com>

Fucking gorgeous eugen

On Aug 17, 2016 3:07 AM, "Zenaan Harkness" <zen at freedbms.net> wrote:

> On Sun, Jul 21, 2013 at 11:22:51AM +0200, Eugen Leitl wrote:
> > ----- Forwarded message from micah <micah at riseup.net> -----
> > > I'm working on a talk for OHM2013 about PGP. Can anyone send me
> examples
> > > of interesting keys in key servers that you know of?
> >
> > I dont know what your talk will consist of, besides the funny enigmail
> > XSS and goatse.cx stuff (thanks for that! always good to have some
> > goatse early in the morning),
>
> ASCII goatse, now that's where it's at :)
>
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From jnn at synfin.org  Wed Aug 17 02:16:40 2016
From: jnn at synfin.org (John Newman)
Date: Wed, 17 Aug 2016 05:16:40 -0400
Subject: [WAR] A brief bit of Hillary history.
In-Reply-To: <20160817034633.GJ16816@x220-a02>
References: <20160816150853.GA16816@x220-a02>
 <7FD4B3D2-FD18-4F98-AD3C-EA87B9138C61@synfin.org>
 <CAN9H=iJoiC23E9KczY6SEZdyhWpMFMg=Cc=1JNKOZpqQWh7zoQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <E145D632-BE6C-4CEB-A17B-8F45BC8CAF1A@synfin.org>
 <917690462.6021877.1471371999666.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com>
 <20160817004103.GF16816@x220-a02>
 <B0C63D75-05B1-4430-A40C-82A08E1BC6AC@synfin.org>
 <20160817034633.GJ16816@x220-a02>
Message-ID: <2E03BC44-DE5E-40E4-8FAD-4CD111F9C413@synfin.org>




--
John
On Aug 16, 2016, at 11:46 PM, Zenaan Harkness <zen at freedbms.net> wrote:

>>> Dang Global Scientific Marketers just can't decide which terms to even
>>> use - that sure gave me confidence in their certinty!
>> 
>> Har har! Dang ol science it must be a CONSPIRACY yeah that's it!! What
>> has science ever done anyway?
>> 
>> Fucking ridiculous.
> 
> Assertion != fact.
> 
> Scientific theory != fact.
> 
> Even, solid mathematical model != fact.
> 
> "Science" as some of us prefer to use the term, is where facts, actual
> measurable testable facts, are determinable by testing and verifiable by
> someone else running the same test and making the same measurement,
> resulting in taking/ measuring the same value (same result), thus
> verifying said fact as a fact, a value, a measurement, and more than
> merely assumption arising from some scientific theory.
> 
> Perhaps someone else can try to explain this in a clearer way? Perhaps
> it's a difficult thing to express clearly in English..

It's not difficult at all, you can play semantic games all day long. If you want to get down to absolutes NOTHING is a fact... I choose to put my faith in what seems to be the most obvious truth, based on a preponderance of scientific evidence. Anyone who chooses otherwise, particularly with important shit like this, just doesn't give a fuck or just doesn't get it, IMO.

John





From juan.g71 at gmail.com  Wed Aug 17 01:34:18 2016
From: juan.g71 at gmail.com (juan)
Date: Wed, 17 Aug 2016 05:34:18 -0300
Subject: Global warming/climate change
In-Reply-To: <20160817072456.GD686@sivokote.iziade.m$>
References: <20160816150853.GA16816@x220-a02>
 <7FD4B3D2-FD18-4F98-AD3C-EA87B9138C61@synfin.org>
 <CAN9H=iJoiC23E9KczY6SEZdyhWpMFMg=Cc=1JNKOZpqQWh7zoQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <E145D632-BE6C-4CEB-A17B-8F45BC8CAF1A@synfin.org>
 <20160817064601.GB686@sivokote.iziade.m$>
 <20160817070106.GA1288@x220-a02>
 <20160817072456.GD686@sivokote.iziade.m$>
Message-ID: <57b42065.89a7370a.3786e.ef50@mx.google.com>

On Wed, 17 Aug 2016 10:24:56 +0300
Georgi Guninski <guninski at guninski.com> wrote:

> On Wed, Aug 17, 2016 at 05:01:06PM +1000, Zenaan Harkness wrote:
> > > I see the climate changes in my lifetime so it is "fact" for me.
> > 
> > I see no one disputing climate change. Quite the contrary.
> >
> 
> Don't follow climate statistics (some may say numerology), but natural
> climate change should be _very slow_ 


	Why? 

	https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vFdZ9t4Y5hQ


> IMHO and not detectable in a
> single lifetime at all, except at the border of something big.
>  





From jnn at synfin.org  Wed Aug 17 03:23:53 2016
From: jnn at synfin.org (John Newman)
Date: Wed, 17 Aug 2016 06:23:53 -0400
Subject: software - multiple version installs (any distro developers here?)
In-Reply-To: <20160817033017.GC25656@x220-a02>
References: <20160816052039.GF27807@x220-a02>
 <CAD2Ti2_33QQRZ8NNTgDaTw3JzPhbGpGJwGWoP3V1gUMtQn4Pkw@mail.gmail.com>
 <20160817033017.GC25656@x220-a02>
Message-ID: <D61313EF-FC2B-4C15-B8E4-E07EDE1C5507@synfin.org>


> 
>> If troubled on Linux, at least look at the BSD's... their hier's
>> are cleaner and enforced, partly from not going the "distro" model
>> of random thunkers.
> 
> Yes, a bucket list item for me - my attempt at Red Hat doesn't bode well
> though - we are creatures of habit.
> 
> Thanks heaps for the feedback.

You haven't had the full pleasure of running a UNIX system until you've used FreeBSD :). I prefer it for my own servers every time.... but of course I'm running against the grain with that preference, the day job being a pure redhat shop...

I couldn't say whether FreeBSD has as good an end user desktop experience, although I suspect it should, assuming your hardware supported. I think nvidia has an X11 driver for FreeBSD in addition to Linux... I've actually been pretty impressed with redhat 7 and the default gnome 3, after installing the nvidia drivers (I'm not an open source nazi, they work better than nouveau...)


John





From jnn at synfin.org  Wed Aug 17 03:28:01 2016
From: jnn at synfin.org (John Newman)
Date: Wed, 17 Aug 2016 06:28:01 -0400
Subject: software - multiple version installs (any distro developers here?)
In-Reply-To: <20160817071225.GC33327@r4>
References: <20160816052039.GF27807@x220-a02>
 <CAD2Ti2_33QQRZ8NNTgDaTw3JzPhbGpGJwGWoP3V1gUMtQn4Pkw@mail.gmail.com>
 <20160817033017.GC25656@x220-a02> <20160817071225.GC33327@r4>
Message-ID: <A71F8973-7740-4F23-90DD-11A65315D385@synfin.org>


> On Aug 17, 2016, at 3:12 AM, Tom <tom at vondein.org> wrote:
> 
>> On Wed, Aug 17, 2016 at 01:30:17PM +1000, Zenaan Harkness wrote:
>> A major distro heading that way (e.g. Debian) might encourage developers
>> to increase the configurability of their own software perhaps?
> 
> Developers != distro|package maintainers, and free software should be
> portable and not distro specific. So, developers wouldn't have anything to
> do here, only maintainers.
> 
>> Ahah! Yes so we need a new default packaging/ installation format to be
>> supported by RPM and DPKG, to support the better way, e.g.:
> 
> https://xkcd.com/927/  :)
> 
>> So look into /var/lib/dpkg/info - that's heading for 9K files on my
>> system - and this is a relatively fresh install (<12months)!
>> 
>> That's not human friendly.
> 
> Because humans are not the intended audience for this stuff.
> Use dpkg -l [| less or the like].
> 
>> The point is just multiple versions parallel installs, that's all.
> 
> There are already solutions for this, e.g. look at PC-BSDs packages.
> Or use a container. Or compile yourself and

Docker might be a little big for every binary in the system ;).  I tend to agree that the base system is ok without being a bunch of symlinks, but doing something like this for /usr/local does work great on OSX with homebrew (which is written in ruby btw)


John





From afalex169 at gmail.com  Tue Aug 16 21:42:48 2016
From: afalex169 at gmail.com (=?UTF-8?B?0JDQu9C10LrRgdCw0L3QtNGA?=)
Date: Wed, 17 Aug 2016 07:42:48 +0300
Subject: [WAR] A brief bit of Hillary history.
In-Reply-To: <20160817035906.GK16816@x220-a02>
References: <20160816150853.GA16816@x220-a02>
 <7FD4B3D2-FD18-4F98-AD3C-EA87B9138C61@synfin.org>
 <CAN9H=iJoiC23E9KczY6SEZdyhWpMFMg=Cc=1JNKOZpqQWh7zoQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <E145D632-BE6C-4CEB-A17B-8F45BC8CAF1A@synfin.org>
 <917690462.6021877.1471371999666.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com>
 <20160817004103.GF16816@x220-a02>
 <B0C63D75-05B1-4430-A40C-82A08E1BC6AC@synfin.org>
 <20160817035906.GK16816@x220-a02>
Message-ID: <CAEm6KbJvDGi7sh2+mC7Psi=rfTDMNsd-9etLNrSwEr2JU-9SBg@mail.gmail.com>

I must emphasize a few key-points by Zenaan on the "global warming" fairy
tale:

Well, this one was brought by Jim

> I don't see how there can be "scientific consensus" unless there are
> accurate computer models which show how up climate temperature increases as
> a product of addition of CO2 to the atmosphere.  Both qualitatively and
> quantitatively.
>
> From Lord Kelvin:
> “When you can measure what you are speaking about, and express it in
> numbers, you know something about it, when you cannot express it in
> numbers, your knowledge is of a meager and unsatisfactory kind; it may be
> the beginning of knowledge, but you have scarely, in your thoughts advanced
> to the stage of science.”
>

Zenaan

> Vehemently claiming "theory" is not theory and is actually "fact" does not
> make said theory, facts.
>
!!!

Yes we are impacting the environment (pollution), yes we are pumping
> various gases into the atmosphere, no we cannot be certain of
> anthropogenic global warming OVER AND ABOVE 'natural' causes (the sun
> cycles, natural/ cyclical changes in the earth, more?)
>
!!!

Could it be that those challenging a dearly held assertion ***(here it's
> the global "warming" assertion, yesterday it was the moon fairy-tale and
> the Tor fairness assertions, you know), do so not from any contrariness,
> not from any obtuse stubbornness nor even belligerance, but from a
> heartfelt desire to seek 'the truth' and to discover the true facts behind
> an assertion made by another?
>
!!!

*Is there any possibility that our personal programming be our Western*
> *schooling system is so ingrained, so deep, that parts of it are simply*
> *unseen by our not so humble selves?*
>
!!!

And could it be that such deep programming is in fact used by wealthy
> oligarchs around the world who meet behind closed doors to discuss and
> execute intentions to spin certain stories based on "the glory, power
> and untouchable truth of 'science'" to their personal and
> group/corporate economic benefit?
>
!!!
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From tom at vondein.org  Wed Aug 17 00:12:25 2016
From: tom at vondein.org (Tom)
Date: Wed, 17 Aug 2016 09:12:25 +0200
Subject: software - multiple version installs (any distro developers here?)
In-Reply-To: <20160817033017.GC25656@x220-a02>
References: <20160816052039.GF27807@x220-a02>
 <CAD2Ti2_33QQRZ8NNTgDaTw3JzPhbGpGJwGWoP3V1gUMtQn4Pkw@mail.gmail.com>
 <20160817033017.GC25656@x220-a02>
Message-ID: <20160817071225.GC33327@r4>

On Wed, Aug 17, 2016 at 01:30:17PM +1000, Zenaan Harkness wrote:
> A major distro heading that way (e.g. Debian) might encourage developers
> to increase the configurability of their own software perhaps?

Developers != distro|package maintainers, and free software should be
portable and not distro specific. So, developers wouldn't have anything to
do here, only maintainers.

> Ahah! Yes so we need a new default packaging/ installation format to be
> supported by RPM and DPKG, to support the better way, e.g.:

https://xkcd.com/927/  :)

> So look into /var/lib/dpkg/info - that's heading for 9K files on my
> system - and this is a relatively fresh install (<12months)!
>
> That's not human friendly.

Because humans are not the intended audience for this stuff.
Use dpkg -l [| less or the like].
 
> The point is just multiple versions parallel installs, that's all.

There are already solutions for this, e.g. look at PC-BSDs packages.
Or use a container. Or compile yourself and set --prefix accordingly.
 
> Given my experience, your "nobody wants" is too broad by at least 1 :)
 
You're free to start a new project. Maybe others will join, maybe not.



best,
Tom




From rysiek at hackerspace.pl  Wed Aug 17 00:42:15 2016
From: rysiek at hackerspace.pl (rysiek)
Date: Wed, 17 Aug 2016 09:42:15 +0200
Subject: Hedge fund manager profited from death arbitrage.
In-Reply-To: <20160817040102.GL16816@x220-a02>
References: <1885626805.17266642.1471370963017.JavaMail.yahoo.ref@mail.yahoo.com>
 <6b98df1e-a91a-ca03-62e3-d61566f40422@riseup.net>
 <20160817040102.GL16816@x220-a02>
Message-ID: <35034309.yE4TMqPlFj@lapuntu>

Dnia środa, 17 sierpnia 2016 14:01:02 CEST Zenaan Harkness pisze:
> On Tue, Aug 16, 2016 at 09:07:59PM -0600, Mirimir wrote:
> > On 08/16/2016 12:09 PM, jim bell wrote:
> > 
> > <SNIP>
> > 
> > > AP ('Assassination Politics';  https://cryptome.org/ap.htm  ) can
> > > be considered to be 'death arbitrage' with a few key differences:
> > > The person who will die isn't part of the agreement, and doesn't
> > > profit when the initial deal is struck, nor later.
> > 
> > Ah, but someone with a huge bet on their death could commit suicide, and
> > so their estate would profit. Or is that against AP rules?
> 
> "The rules" are the rules formed in the respective contracts, presumably
> - how could it be any other way?
> 
> Therefore unsuccessful or "gamed" contracts would be the fodder of
> lessons learnt for future contracts in the competitive market for
> assassination contracts, which is that which AP presupposes...

Yeah, because that approach worked so well for The DAO. :)

-- 
Pozdrawiam,
Michał "rysiek" Woźniak

Zmieniam klucz GPG :: http://rys.io/pl/147
GPG Key Transition :: http://rys.io/en/147
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From guninski at guninski.com  Tue Aug 16 23:46:01 2016
From: guninski at guninski.com (Georgi Guninski)
Date: Wed, 17 Aug 2016 09:46:01 +0300
Subject: Global warming/climate change
In-Reply-To: <E145D632-BE6C-4CEB-A17B-8F45BC8CAF1A@synfin.org>
References: <20160816150853.GA16816@x220-a02>
 <7FD4B3D2-FD18-4F98-AD3C-EA87B9138C61@synfin.org>
 <CAN9H=iJoiC23E9KczY6SEZdyhWpMFMg=Cc=1JNKOZpqQWh7zoQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <E145D632-BE6C-4CEB-A17B-8F45BC8CAF1A@synfin.org>
Message-ID: <20160817064601.GB686@sivokote.iziade.m$>

On Tue, Aug 16, 2016 at 01:55:24PM -0400, John Newman wrote:
> I disagree, vehemently.  Global warming is not a red herring.  Permafrost is melting, oceans are rising and acidifying, and the future for big coastal cities is looking very bleak indeed.  There is a scientific consensus on this issue.
> 
> But yes of course pollution does suck ass...
>

There was a thread about this in April 2016:
"Do you notice significant persistent change in climate?".

I see the climate changes in my lifetime so it is "fact" for me.

Likely someone profits from this, but someone will try to profit from
the destruction of Earth too.
 




From zen at freedbms.net  Tue Aug 16 16:56:44 2016
From: zen at freedbms.net (Zenaan Harkness)
Date: Wed, 17 Aug 2016 09:56:44 +1000
Subject: [liberationtech] Interesting things in keyservers
In-Reply-To: <20130721092251.GB29404@leitl.org>
References: <20130721092251.GB29404@leitl.org>
Message-ID: <20160816235644.GA20698@x220-a02>

On Sun, Jul 21, 2013 at 11:22:51AM +0200, Eugen Leitl wrote:
> ----- Forwarded message from micah <micah at riseup.net> -----
> > I'm working on a talk for OHM2013 about PGP. Can anyone send me examples
> > of interesting keys in key servers that you know of?
> 
> I dont know what your talk will consist of, besides the funny enigmail
> XSS and goatse.cx stuff (thanks for that! always good to have some
> goatse early in the morning),

ASCII goatse, now that's where it's at :)




From zen at freedbms.net  Tue Aug 16 17:12:46 2016
From: zen at freedbms.net (Zenaan Harkness)
Date: Wed, 17 Aug 2016 10:12:46 +1000
Subject: software - multiple version installs (any distro developers here?)
In-Reply-To: <A3F8DD2A-608C-4377-AD71-158618B6C508@synfin.org>
References: <20160816052039.GF27807@x220-a02>
 <A3F8DD2A-608C-4377-AD71-158618B6C508@synfin.org>
Message-ID: <20160817001246.GD16816@x220-a02>

On Tue, Aug 16, 2016 at 12:48:42PM -0400, John wrote:
> Might take a look at homebrew on OSX ... it's similar to your idea ,
> everything is installed into its own little packaged directory and
> then symlinked back to /usr/local/{bin,sbin}/....

Good, so someone's tried it.


> It beats macports and fink all to fuck.

An encouraging data point. In your experience, why is it
such a better FHS layout?




From guninski at guninski.com  Wed Aug 17 00:24:56 2016
From: guninski at guninski.com (Georgi Guninski)
Date: Wed, 17 Aug 2016 10:24:56 +0300
Subject: Global warming/climate change
In-Reply-To: <20160817070106.GA1288@x220-a02>
References: <20160816150853.GA16816@x220-a02>
 <7FD4B3D2-FD18-4F98-AD3C-EA87B9138C61@synfin.org>
 <CAN9H=iJoiC23E9KczY6SEZdyhWpMFMg=Cc=1JNKOZpqQWh7zoQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <E145D632-BE6C-4CEB-A17B-8F45BC8CAF1A@synfin.org>
 <20160817064601.GB686@sivokote.iziade.m$>
 <20160817070106.GA1288@x220-a02>
Message-ID: <20160817072456.GD686@sivokote.iziade.m$>

On Wed, Aug 17, 2016 at 05:01:06PM +1000, Zenaan Harkness wrote:
> > I see the climate changes in my lifetime so it is "fact" for me.
> 
> I see no one disputing climate change. Quite the contrary.
>

Don't follow climate statistics (some may say numerology), but natural
climate change should be _very slow_ IMHO and not detectable in a single
lifetime at all, except at the border of something big.
 




From zen at freedbms.net  Tue Aug 16 17:33:40 2016
From: zen at freedbms.net (Zenaan Harkness)
Date: Wed, 17 Aug 2016 10:33:40 +1000
Subject: Hedge fund manager profited from death arbitrage.
In-Reply-To: <1885626805.17266642.1471370963017.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com>
References: <1885626805.17266642.1471370963017.JavaMail.yahoo.ref@mail.yahoo.com>
 <1885626805.17266642.1471370963017.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <20160817003340.GE16816@x220-a02>

On Tue, Aug 16, 2016 at 06:09:23PM +0000, jim bell wrote:
> https://www.bloomberg.com/view/articles/2016-08-16/hedge-fund-manager-profited-from-death-arbitrage
> 

SEE that email quoting symbol above - the ">"?!! Yes I thought you could
- ther'es a dang space after it!!!!! That's just, terrible. This is
gotta stop!

> "A vital function of the financial system is to shift risk, but that
> is mostly a euphemism. Finance can't make risks go away, or even
> really move them all that much. When the financial system shifts the
> risk of X happening from Y to Z, all that means is that Z gives
> Y money if X happens. If X was going to happen to Y, it's still going
> to happen to Y. But now Y gets money. Death is a central fact of human
> existence, the fundamental datum that gives meaning to life, but it is
> also a risk -- you never know when it will happen! -- and so the
> financial industry has figured out ways to shift it.

You know, it might be really funny if in fact all the IMF's SDRs
(special drawing rights - i.e. sanctioned right to print money, even
without any loan-promise-to-repay backing those fiats) were really
backed by birth certificates, and some portion closed off each month
with corresponding death certificates.

Could explain why demoncratic governments are so hell bent on
ever more intense cotton-wool-society statutes? (a few years back, we
had someone in Victoria, Australia, booked for speeding at 61km/hr in a
60km/hr zone - don't recall if they won their court case or not - it IS
an absolute offense after all).


Naaaaah! They would never arbitrage all human lives explicitly against
fiat dollar printing rights - that would be like, like, like a
conspiracy or something.




From zen at freedbms.net  Tue Aug 16 17:41:03 2016
From: zen at freedbms.net (Zenaan Harkness)
Date: Wed, 17 Aug 2016 10:41:03 +1000
Subject: [WAR] A brief bit of Hillary history.
In-Reply-To: <917690462.6021877.1471371999666.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com>
References: <20160816150853.GA16816@x220-a02>
 <7FD4B3D2-FD18-4F98-AD3C-EA87B9138C61@synfin.org>
 <CAN9H=iJoiC23E9KczY6SEZdyhWpMFMg=Cc=1JNKOZpqQWh7zoQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <E145D632-BE6C-4CEB-A17B-8F45BC8CAF1A@synfin.org>
 <917690462.6021877.1471371999666.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <20160817004103.GF16816@x220-a02>

On Tue, Aug 16, 2016 at 06:26:39PM +0000, jim bell wrote:
>  From: John Newman <jnn at synfin.org>
> >I disagree, vehemently.  Global warming is not a red herring.
> > Permafrost is melting, oceans are rising and acidifying, and the
> >future for big >coastal cities is looking very bleak indeed.  There
> >is a scientific consensus on this issue.
> 
> I don't see how there can be "scientific consensus" unless there are
> accurate computer models which show how up climate temperature
> increases as a product of addition of CO2 to the atmosphere.  Both
> qualitatively and quantitatively.  How much do these problems
> represent?
>
> From Lord Kelvin:
>
> “When you can measure what you are speaking about, and express it in
> numbers, you know something about it, when you cannot express it in
> numbers, your knowledge is of a meager and unsatisfactory kind; it may
> be the beginning of knowledge, but you have scarely, in your thoughts
> advanced to the stage of science.”
> http://www.goodreads.com/quotes/166961-when-you-can-measure-what-you-are-speaking-about-and
> 
> There is also the prospect of adding SO2 to the high atmosphere to
> counteract heating, which could be a very cheap solution.
>             Jim Bell

THANK you!!

"Global warming" gets bandied around as though it is "scientific" or
even more ridiculously "accepted science".

And another thing !! <waves old wooden walking sticdk> it was always
called Global Warming, except then it got called Global Anthropogenic
Temperature Changes, except then it got called Global Climate Change,
except before in the 60s or 70s (dang, I can't remember which) it was
called Global Cooling - front page Time Magazine articles an all. Take
THAT yung whipperyschapperies!

Dang Global Scientific Marketers just can't decide which terms to even
use - that sure gave me confidence in their certinty!




From youngerdryas at sigaint.org  Wed Aug 17 03:43:17 2016
From: youngerdryas at sigaint.org (YoungerDryas)
Date: Wed, 17 Aug 2016 10:43:17 -0000
Subject: Global warming/climate change
Message-ID: <b7c3c876cd9b4733cb5e5e99cb9f56e4.webmail@localhost>

> Zenaan Harkness:
> I see no one disputing climate change.


Here is some clarification.

Joe Rogan Experience #725 - Graham Hancock & Randall Carlson:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aDejwCGdUV8

Watch/listen to the whole thing but the first 15min should be enough
context to drive further interest.  A snip from Randall Carlson:

"We're not really seeing the genesis of civilization, we're seeing the
rebooting of civilization, in the aftermath of these [global warming and
cooling] events."



Joe Rogan Experience #606 - Randall Carlson:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G0Cp7DrvNLQ

This one goes in depth more on climate and adjacent science. Jumping to 18
or 19 minutes should be enough context to drive further interest. Snips:

"We're in the infancy of understanding the climate of this planet."

"My concern is that we're going to get so focused on carbon change that
we're not looking at any of these other factors."



Joe Rogan Experience #501 - Randall Carlson:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R31SXuFeX0A

For those who want to start at the beginning. Skip to 6min to avoid radio
ads.  All the Graham Hancock ones are wonderful as well, if anyone wants
to dig in deepah.

These guys are cpunks.

#For those who avoid video: http://youtube-dl.org/

#Please God, water my plants with your teardrops.





From guninski at guninski.com  Wed Aug 17 02:24:27 2016
From: guninski at guninski.com (Georgi Guninski)
Date: Wed, 17 Aug 2016 12:24:27 +0300
Subject: Global warming/climate change
In-Reply-To: <57b42065.89a7370a.3786e.ef50@mx.google.com>
References: <20160816150853.GA16816@x220-a02>
 <7FD4B3D2-FD18-4F98-AD3C-EA87B9138C61@synfin.org>
 <CAN9H=iJoiC23E9KczY6SEZdyhWpMFMg=Cc=1JNKOZpqQWh7zoQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <E145D632-BE6C-4CEB-A17B-8F45BC8CAF1A@synfin.org>
 <20160817064601.GB686@sivokote.iziade.m$>
 <20160817070106.GA1288@x220-a02>
 <20160817072456.GD686@sivokote.iziade.m$>
 <57b42065.89a7370a.3786e.ef50@mx.google.com>
Message-ID: <20160817092427.GE686@sivokote.iziade.m$>

On Wed, Aug 17, 2016 at 05:34:18AM -0300, juan wrote:
> > Don't follow climate statistics (some may say numerology), but natural
> > climate change should be _very slow_ 
> 
> 
> 	Why? 
>

Extremely rough approximations of the current changes give very large
temperature "relatively" (to history of life) soon, I _suspect_.
Not counting what will be above water, positive feedback and constants
becoming functions.
Might be wrong on this.

 
> 	https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vFdZ9t4Y5hQ

Would you explain what is this? I avoid videos.





From zen at freedbms.net  Tue Aug 16 20:30:17 2016
From: zen at freedbms.net (Zenaan Harkness)
Date: Wed, 17 Aug 2016 13:30:17 +1000
Subject: software - multiple version installs (any distro developers here?)
In-Reply-To: <CAD2Ti2_33QQRZ8NNTgDaTw3JzPhbGpGJwGWoP3V1gUMtQn4Pkw@mail.gmail.com>
References: <20160816052039.GF27807@x220-a02>
 <CAD2Ti2_33QQRZ8NNTgDaTw3JzPhbGpGJwGWoP3V1gUMtQn4Pkw@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <20160817033017.GC25656@x220-a02>

On Tue, Aug 16, 2016 at 08:45:16PM -0400, grarpamp wrote:
> On 8/16/16, Zenaan Harkness <zen at freedbms.net> wrote:
> > [symlinks, versioning and stuff]
> 
> > I'm sure this has been thunked before
> 
> Many times, over many decades, by many people... and been done.
> 
> Those users and shops have their entire /usr/local or /opt
> (bin sbin lib include share doc etc and so on) as nothing but script
> managed symlink trees as means of tagging the active default version.
> And keep the multiple program-M.m.r versions on disk therein, which
> are manually callable as needed for new testing and legacy use.
> With scripts to build, install, and symlink it all.

Awesome! That's exactly what I want.

Except I want Debian to do all that for me.


> Dependencies,
> namespace collisions, runtime issues with ld rpath and friends, and
> the whims of program authors... all tend to buzzkill many efforts
> there.

A major distro heading that way (e.g. Debian) might encourage developers
to increase the configurability of their own software perhaps?

Gotta start the improvement somewhere...


> Github might have something for you.

I want to establish, re doing this "at the distro level":
- whether it's a better way
- are their any insurmountable runtime issues

And therefore if it all makes sense, to see if there'd be any buy in
with developers of a particular distro.

Is it generally a better way, say for the large mainstream desktop and
server focused distros?

In what scenarios is installation direct to /usr/[bin|lib|share|...]
actually a distinctly better way?


> There are also variant symlinks:
> https://www.dragonflybsd.org/cgi/web-man?command=varsym&section=1
> http://leaf.dragonflybsd.org/cgi/web-man?command=varsym.conf&section=5
> http://leaf.dragonflybsd.org/cgi/web-man?command=varsym&section=2
> https://wiki.freebsd.org/200808DevSummit?action=AttachFile&do=view&target=variant-symlinks-for-freebsd.pdf
> https://github.com/drq883/varsym
> https://lwn.net/Articles/680705/
> https://github.com/onslauth/varsymfs
> 
> The "FHS" of a base OS, be it Linux or BSD, typically exclusively
> reserve /usr/local for their default package manager, and reserve

Ahah! Yes so we need a new default packaging/ installation format to be
supported by RPM and DPKG, to support the better way, e.g.:
/usr/{a..z} has the package install files, and
/usr/[bin|lib|share|..] are symlink farms.

How hard can it be to support this more rational approach?


> /opt for site use. Some sites prefer /opt first in PATH once it's
> compiled and installed by competant system admin.

These fundamentals have no reason to change. The "/opt" example was
simply how I am locally using /opt for custom software installs beyond
what debian provides.

Also convenient to use .../{a..z} for my offline "setups" (.tar.gz
downloads), git clones, documentation (books, URLs I save) etc - each of
these {a..z} hierarchies has been inspired primarily by:
 - Debian's package pools
 - Daniel Berstein's "universal program namespace" intention which
   never really took off.


> Single letter trees for package installs serve no purpose and are
> anti human.

Disagree - not an absolute. Check this:

   > > On Aug 15, 2016 9:15 PM, "Zenaan Harkness" <zen at freedbms.net>
   > > wrote:
   > > > With just a smattering of /etc/.. based meta files, .deb meta
   > > > files and
   > > > tool awareness, Debian could install all software in this form
   > > > - say
   > > > into /usr/a/.. /usr/b/.. etc.
   > >⋅
   > > There are over 48000 packages in debian. What's just a smattering
   > > times
   > > 48000?
   >⋅
   > Hah! Check this out for anyone on a Debian system:
   >⋅
   > /var/lib/dpkg/info/
   >⋅
   > In fact, you might prefer one of the following :)
   >⋅
   > ls -l /var/lib/dpkg/info/ | head -n 30
   > ls /var/lib/dpkg/info/ | wc
   >⋅
   > to get a feel for the existing situation in Debian.
   >⋅
   > Up to 6 (count 'em: 1, 2, 3, 4, 5 and ... 6 YEAH), six files, get
   > this,
   > per package!
   >⋅
   > I find that quite amazing.
   >⋅
   > That means that on a test install where all ~48K packages are
   > installed,
   > this one directory would contain roughly 250K files.
   >⋅
   > Quite impressive really...


So look into /var/lib/dpkg/info - that's heading for 9K files on my
system - and this is a relatively fresh install (<12months)!

That's not human friendly. Debian's package pools are definitely more
human friendly (says the almighty humble I).

But sure, a flat hierarchy may be more human friendly, still with each
package in its own /usr/program-v0.7.2/... directory, and still having
the usual symlink farms in /usr/bin and /usr/lib etc.

It's probably a bike shed issue - my preference is, given the number of
packages that get installed in "an average desktop installation", to
have an {a..z} layer, as in /usr/{a..z}/program-v0.7.2/...


> There's no performance need to turn the fs into a binary
> tree (todays kernels and fs can handle flat dirs many times the
> needs of any installed package set). Nor need to turn the fs into
> a database, that's what package managers are for.

In agreement on this.

The point is just multiple versions parallel installs, that's all.

This should make a lot of things easier in various ways - Debian
"backports" for example, not only custom end-user installs, besides the
obvious developer test installs - think:

   $ git checkout tag-v-3.7.14
   $ ./configure DEST=/usr/m/my-program-v-3.7.14
   $ make
   $ make install
   $ make symlink-as-primary


Wouldn't you like it to be "GNU/Linux, the hegemonic OS"?


> > I'd like to see the libre unix software ecosystem move forward
> > on this.
> 
> Nobody wants such a symlink mess in the base system, ever.

Have you never been frustrated fighting the base package system with
multiple versions of something you want installed?

Tried to install a backports only to end up in a dependency hell where
some backport lib must also be installed, and this stuffs up other
packages from your base install?

Given my experience, your "nobody wants" is too broad by at least 1 :)


> And things like pivot root, snapshots, portable processes, rolling
> release, vm, jail, layered fs, and patchable kernel are all happening.
>
> Leaving just handling /usr/local...

Symlink farms to actual per-version install folders would make "alt
'environments' almost trivial to implement with nothing but a change in
PATH and one or two other env vars.


> Most people usually don't have need for multiple versions, just a
> current version that works. Even packaging just that is hard and a
> lot of work by a lot of people. Thus port / package tools naturally
> remain rather simple.
> 
> Sure there are issues with limited accomodations for versioning /
> site in package managers. So see /opt above. Or roll your own distro,
> and packager and reach wide adoption with it.

:)

I suspect could be possible to have as a simple plugin/set of rules, for
dpkg, which would not conflict with the existing layout, just supplement
for those who want a "better backports installation ability".

That's the itch that gets me on this one - failed attempts to install
backports packages - along with some successful attempts too - but my
experience is inconsistent, and it is evident the process is more
complex than it needs to be.


> > arcane per distro package incantations
>
> Until then, excepting some tool and port sharing among Linux
> and BSD's, things are exactly this, and wishful thunking.

I still think the different distros would not share, in general, the
binary packages due to compile flags and preferred versions.

Multi version program installs would apply to any distro.


> If troubled on Linux, at least look at the BSD's... their hier's
> are cleaner and enforced, partly from not going the "distro" model
> of random thunkers.

Yes, a bucket list item for me - my attempt at Red Hat doesn't bode well
though - we are creatures of habit.

Thanks heaps for the feedback.




From zen at freedbms.net  Tue Aug 16 20:41:55 2016
From: zen at freedbms.net (Zenaan Harkness)
Date: Wed, 17 Aug 2016 13:41:55 +1000
Subject: [WAR] A brief bit of Hillary history.
In-Reply-To: <4F1BFE37-71AB-4FA5-BA11-8F49BA8BDA91@synfin.org>
References: <20160816150853.GA16816@x220-a02>
 <7FD4B3D2-FD18-4F98-AD3C-EA87B9138C61@synfin.org>
 <CAN9H=iJoiC23E9KczY6SEZdyhWpMFMg=Cc=1JNKOZpqQWh7zoQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <E145D632-BE6C-4CEB-A17B-8F45BC8CAF1A@synfin.org>
 <917690462.6021877.1471371999666.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com>
 <5323B6F3-2FC2-4454-A987-A50ADBC0CC06@gmail.com>
 <57b380c1.962cc80a.665ca.4700@mx.google.com>
 <4F1BFE37-71AB-4FA5-BA11-8F49BA8BDA91@synfin.org>
Message-ID: <20160817034155.GI16816@x220-a02>

On Tue, Aug 16, 2016 at 10:35:15PM -0400, John wrote:
> On August 16, 2016 5:13:16 PM EDT, juan <juan.g71 at gmail.com> wrote:
> >On Tue, 16 Aug 2016 14:47:38 -0400
> >Joshua Case <jwcase at gmail.com> wrote:
> >> There is abundant research, of the scientifically valid kind, showing
> >> that the climate is changing, and indeed it would be strange if it
> >> were not.
> >
> >	Yep. So all that 'scientific research' is, if not meaningless,
> >	pretty much irrelevant. 'Climate change' is a natural fact that
> >	has been acknowledged by humans for thousands of years.
>
> Anthropogenic climate change is what we are talking about. At least,

Then please be persistent in using that terminology (which correctly
names what you intent to be talking about).


> it's what im talking about. Not normal natural climate change or even
> climate change related to non human events e.g. a large asteroid
> hitting the earth.... Humanity has been and continues to accelerate
> the rate of change dramatically, and dangerously.

That's the kind of assertion, which those who value science, will always
kick back at.

The best "you" (those pushing the anthropogenic climate change
'science' agenda) have is computer "models" - which use as inputs
(demand) in this case assumptions, projections, and a lack of enough
detailed historical facts to otherwise avoid such assumptions and
projections, and so remain as scientific "theory" and not scientific
"facts".

Yes we are impacting the environment (pollution), yes we are pumping
various gases into the atmosphere, no we cannot be certain of
anthropogenic global warming OVER AND ABOVE 'natural' causes (the sun
cycles, natural/ cyclical changes in the earth, more?)

Vehemently claiming "theory" is not theory and is actually "fact" does
not make said theory, facts, and only serves to highlight the
possibility of "agenda". Now, in your case, the agenda may be nothing
more or less benign than an intention to "waking people up out of
ignorance", but is nevertheless, whatever it is, an agenda (thorougly
guilty of such vehemence myself in my younger years - such as at least 4
months ago...).


> All that "scientific research" is anything but meaningless. Since when
> do you put science in quotation marks like it's a big fucking joke?

Don't mix up "reasonable mathematical model giving weight to a
scientific theory", with "scientific fact". Around these parts (you may
have noticed) you'll keep coming unstuck on that one :)




From zen at freedbms.net  Tue Aug 16 20:46:33 2016
From: zen at freedbms.net (Zenaan Harkness)
Date: Wed, 17 Aug 2016 13:46:33 +1000
Subject: [WAR] A brief bit of Hillary history.
In-Reply-To: <B0C63D75-05B1-4430-A40C-82A08E1BC6AC@synfin.org>
References: <20160816150853.GA16816@x220-a02>
 <7FD4B3D2-FD18-4F98-AD3C-EA87B9138C61@synfin.org>
 <CAN9H=iJoiC23E9KczY6SEZdyhWpMFMg=Cc=1JNKOZpqQWh7zoQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <E145D632-BE6C-4CEB-A17B-8F45BC8CAF1A@synfin.org>
 <917690462.6021877.1471371999666.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com>
 <20160817004103.GF16816@x220-a02>
 <B0C63D75-05B1-4430-A40C-82A08E1BC6AC@synfin.org>
Message-ID: <20160817034633.GJ16816@x220-a02>

> >Dang Global Scientific Marketers just can't decide which terms to even
> >use - that sure gave me confidence in their certinty!
> 
> Har har! Dang ol science it must be a CONSPIRACY yeah that's it!! What
> has science ever done anyway?
> 
> Fucking ridiculous.

Assertion != fact.

Scientific theory != fact.

Even, solid mathematical model != fact.

"Science" as some of us prefer to use the term, is where facts, actual
measurable testable facts, are determinable by testing and verifiable by
someone else running the same test and making the same measurement,
resulting in taking/ measuring the same value (same result), thus
verifying said fact as a fact, a value, a measurement, and more than
merely assumption arising from some scientific theory.

Perhaps someone else can try to explain this in a clearer way? Perhaps
it's a difficult thing to express clearly in English..




From zen at freedbms.net  Tue Aug 16 20:59:06 2016
From: zen at freedbms.net (Zenaan Harkness)
Date: Wed, 17 Aug 2016 13:59:06 +1000
Subject: [WAR] A brief bit of Hillary history.
In-Reply-To: <B0C63D75-05B1-4430-A40C-82A08E1BC6AC@synfin.org>
References: <20160816150853.GA16816@x220-a02>
 <7FD4B3D2-FD18-4F98-AD3C-EA87B9138C61@synfin.org>
 <CAN9H=iJoiC23E9KczY6SEZdyhWpMFMg=Cc=1JNKOZpqQWh7zoQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <E145D632-BE6C-4CEB-A17B-8F45BC8CAF1A@synfin.org>
 <917690462.6021877.1471371999666.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com>
 <20160817004103.GF16816@x220-a02>
 <B0C63D75-05B1-4430-A40C-82A08E1BC6AC@synfin.org>
Message-ID: <20160817035906.GK16816@x220-a02>

> >Dang Global Scientific Marketers just can't decide which terms to even
> >use - that sure gave me confidence in their certinty!
> 
> Har har! Dang ol science it must be a CONSPIRACY yeah that's it!! What
> has science ever done anyway?
> 
> Fucking ridiculous.

When we cling to certainties (even "facts" mind you) is it that we
express an attachment which may be causing us to not see something?

How about when we react in an emotional way, to quotes from history's
"great minds", rather than respectfully deconstruct the fundamental
problem which we assert is hidden in that historical quote, or that
definition (e.g. a definition of the word 'science')?

Is a call to non-emotionally consider what is being said, in the
precision of the words being used, a rational, hey even possibly
'scientific' call to the listener/reader?

Could it be that those challenging a dearly held assertion, do so not
from any contrariness, not from any obtuse stubbornness nor even
belligerance, but from a heartfelt desire to seek 'the truth' and to
discover the true facts behind an assertion made by another?

Can we truly say we are engaging in conversation when we presume
stupidity on the part of another, when they ask explicitly or implicitly
for "more data, please"?

Could it be that those asking for "more data" have spent considerable
genuine personal time and energy searching for said data facts in
support of said assertions and "scientific theory parading itself as
scientific fact" and are at the point of frustration and "well, I've
looked, could not find, so bloody well put up or shut up already"???

Is there any possibility that our personal programming be our Western
schooling system is so ingrained, so deep, that parts of it are simply
unseen by our not so humble selves?

And could it be that such deep programming is in fact used by wealthy
oligarchs around the world who meet behind closed doors to discuss and
execute intentions to spin certain stories based on "the glory, power
and untouchable truth of 'science'" to their personal and
group/corporate economic benefit?

And would it be reasonable to say then when such oligarchs have such
meetings and execute such intentions, that they have "conspired"
together to improve their profits and control in the world?

Could the fruits of such endless closed door conspirings be the reason
the "conspiracy theorist" had to be demonised, socially shunned and
turned into the politically incorrect pariah?




From tom at vondein.org  Wed Aug 17 05:00:28 2016
From: tom at vondein.org (Tom)
Date: Wed, 17 Aug 2016 14:00:28 +0200
Subject: Global warming/climate change
In-Reply-To: <b7c3c876cd9b4733cb5e5e99cb9f56e4.webmail@localhost>
References: <b7c3c876cd9b4733cb5e5e99cb9f56e4.webmail@localhost>
Message-ID: <20160817120028.GD33327@r4>

On Wed, Aug 17, 2016 at 10:43:17AM -0000, YoungerDryas wrote:
> These guys are cpunks.

No, they're not, and not scientists either.


- Tom




From zen at freedbms.net  Tue Aug 16 21:01:02 2016
From: zen at freedbms.net (Zenaan Harkness)
Date: Wed, 17 Aug 2016 14:01:02 +1000
Subject: Hedge fund manager profited from death arbitrage.
In-Reply-To: <6b98df1e-a91a-ca03-62e3-d61566f40422@riseup.net>
References: <1885626805.17266642.1471370963017.JavaMail.yahoo.ref@mail.yahoo.com>
 <1885626805.17266642.1471370963017.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com>
 <6b98df1e-a91a-ca03-62e3-d61566f40422@riseup.net>
Message-ID: <20160817040102.GL16816@x220-a02>

On Tue, Aug 16, 2016 at 09:07:59PM -0600, Mirimir wrote:
> On 08/16/2016 12:09 PM, jim bell wrote:
> 
> <SNIP>
> 
> > AP ('Assassination Politics';  https://cryptome.org/ap.htm  ) can
> > be considered to be 'death arbitrage' with a few key differences:
> > The person who will die isn't part of the agreement, and doesn't
> > profit when the initial deal is struck, nor later.
> 
> Ah, but someone with a huge bet on their death could commit suicide, and
> so their estate would profit. Or is that against AP rules?

"The rules" are the rules formed in the respective contracts, presumably
- how could it be any other way?

Therefore unsuccessful or "gamed" contracts would be the fodder of
lessons learnt for future contracts in the competitive market for
assassination contracts, which is that which AP presupposes...




From guninski at guninski.com  Wed Aug 17 04:28:34 2016
From: guninski at guninski.com (Georgi Guninski)
Date: Wed, 17 Aug 2016 14:28:34 +0300
Subject: Is it fun owning augmented reality? Internet of Things?
Message-ID: <20160817112834.GF686@sivokote.iziade.m$>

Is it fun owning augmented reality?
Or the Internet of Things?
Any 'real reality' damages?

http://www.ibtimes.co.uk/pokemon-go-security-flaw-enables-hacker-take-over-gyms-london-new-york-using-eggs-1576398
Pokemon Go security flaw enables hacker to take over gyms in London 
and New York using eggs




From guninski at guninski.com  Wed Aug 17 04:52:29 2016
From: guninski at guninski.com (Georgi Guninski)
Date: Wed, 17 Aug 2016 14:52:29 +0300
Subject: Global warming/climate change
In-Reply-To: <20160817090310.GB1288@x220-a02>
References: <20160816150853.GA16816@x220-a02>
 <7FD4B3D2-FD18-4F98-AD3C-EA87B9138C61@synfin.org>
 <CAN9H=iJoiC23E9KczY6SEZdyhWpMFMg=Cc=1JNKOZpqQWh7zoQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <E145D632-BE6C-4CEB-A17B-8F45BC8CAF1A@synfin.org>
 <20160817064601.GB686@sivokote.iziade.m$>
 <20160817070106.GA1288@x220-a02>
 <20160817072456.GD686@sivokote.iziade.m$>
 <20160817090310.GB1288@x220-a02>
Message-ID: <20160817115229.GG686@sivokote.iziade.m$>

On Wed, Aug 17, 2016 at 07:03:10PM +1000, Zenaan Harkness wrote:
> On Wed, Aug 17, 2016 at 10:24:56AM +0300, Georgi Guninski wrote:
> > On Wed, Aug 17, 2016 at 05:01:06PM +1000, Zenaan Harkness wrote:
> > > > I see the climate changes in my lifetime so it is "fact" for me.
> > > 
> > > I see no one disputing climate change. Quite the contrary.
> > >
> > 
> > Don't follow climate statistics (some may say numerology), but natural
> > climate change should be _very slow_ IMHO and not detectable in a single
> > lifetime at all, except at the border of something big.
> 
> I disagree - it's a chaotic system, chaotic as in fractal chaos theory
> chaotic, meaning that a small change in one spot can cause a big change
> elsewhere, butterfly effect and all that.
>

Well, this theory explains EVERYTHING -- from the universe to the
quantum stuff.

By "small change" you mean small asteroid hits the earth, destroying it,
right?




From bastianifortress at yandex.com  Wed Aug 17 06:51:31 2016
From: bastianifortress at yandex.com (Bastiani Fortress)
Date: Wed, 17 Aug 2016 15:51:31 +0200
Subject: Riffle: an efficient communication system with strong anonymity
In-Reply-To: <20160802085509.GB688@sivokote.iziade.m$>
References: <CAD2Ti2_LXzbkfCjNxge8TbzvzGhAMaMnqpLV1MSBrRE1ODt5rA@mail.gmail.com>
 <20160712084348.GC687@sivokote.iziade.m$>
 <20160802085509.GB688@sivokote.iziade.m$>
Message-ID: <159491471441891@web29g.yandex.ru>

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From juan.g71 at gmail.com  Wed Aug 17 12:43:31 2016
From: juan.g71 at gmail.com (juan)
Date: Wed, 17 Aug 2016 16:43:31 -0300
Subject: Global warming/climate change
In-Reply-To: <20160817090310.GB1288@x220-a02>
References: <20160816150853.GA16816@x220-a02>
 <7FD4B3D2-FD18-4F98-AD3C-EA87B9138C61@synfin.org>
 <CAN9H=iJoiC23E9KczY6SEZdyhWpMFMg=Cc=1JNKOZpqQWh7zoQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <E145D632-BE6C-4CEB-A17B-8F45BC8CAF1A@synfin.org>
 <20160817064601.GB686@sivokote.iziade.m$>
 <20160817070106.GA1288@x220-a02>
 <20160817072456.GD686@sivokote.iziade.m$>
 <20160817090310.GB1288@x220-a02>
Message-ID: <57b4bd35.2d3ced0a.7e847.3fb7@mx.google.com>

On Wed, 17 Aug 2016 19:03:10 +1000
Zenaan Harkness <zen at freedbms.net> wrote:

> 
> Long term global anthropogenic temperature effects are currently most
> politely described as "scientific theory" - and frankly that's a bit
> generous - humans being human and all, mathematical models "attempting
> to prove weather science" are not exactly solid beyond a few weeks.
> 
> But hey, I'm just a conspiracy theorist, don't mind me :)

	Yes, that's the problem =) 

	The 'scientific' fact that  academia is state-funded is
	irrelevant. There's absolutely no way for the 'scientific'
	state-funded establishment to come up with bullshit in order to
	'justify' their 'grants'.









From juan.g71 at gmail.com  Wed Aug 17 12:44:47 2016
From: juan.g71 at gmail.com (juan)
Date: Wed, 17 Aug 2016 16:44:47 -0300
Subject: Global warming/climate change
In-Reply-To: <20160817090440.GC1288@x220-a02>
References: <20160816150853.GA16816@x220-a02>
 <7FD4B3D2-FD18-4F98-AD3C-EA87B9138C61@synfin.org>
 <CAN9H=iJoiC23E9KczY6SEZdyhWpMFMg=Cc=1JNKOZpqQWh7zoQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <E145D632-BE6C-4CEB-A17B-8F45BC8CAF1A@synfin.org>
 <20160817064601.GB686@sivokote.iziade.m$>
 <20160817070106.GA1288@x220-a02>
 <20160817072456.GD686@sivokote.iziade.m$>
 <57b42065.89a7370a.3786e.ef50@mx.google.com>
 <20160817090440.GC1288@x220-a02>
Message-ID: <57b4bd80.8672370a.d4e12.f1cd@mx.google.com>

On Wed, 17 Aug 2016 19:04:40 +1000
Zenaan Harkness <zen at freedbms.net> wrote:

> On Wed, Aug 17, 2016 at 05:34:18AM -0300, juan wrote:
> > On Wed, 17 Aug 2016 10:24:56 +0300
> > Georgi Guninski <guninski at guninski.com> wrote:
> > 
> > > On Wed, Aug 17, 2016 at 05:01:06PM +1000, Zenaan Harkness wrote:
> > > > > I see the climate changes in my lifetime so it is "fact" for
> > > > > me.
> > > > 
> > > > I see no one disputing climate change. Quite the contrary.
> > > >
> > > 
> > > Don't follow climate statistics (some may say numerology), but
> > > natural climate change should be _very slow_ 
> > 
> > 
> > 	Why? 
> > 
> > 	https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vFdZ9t4Y5hQ
> 
> :D  Perfect! Thanks..


	You see, we conspiracy theorists all think alike. Or perhaps we
	are just one sockpuppet? =P








From juan.g71 at gmail.com  Wed Aug 17 12:48:01 2016
From: juan.g71 at gmail.com (juan)
Date: Wed, 17 Aug 2016 16:48:01 -0300
Subject: Global warming/climate change
In-Reply-To: <20160817092427.GE686@sivokote.iziade.m$>
References: <20160816150853.GA16816@x220-a02>
 <7FD4B3D2-FD18-4F98-AD3C-EA87B9138C61@synfin.org>
 <CAN9H=iJoiC23E9KczY6SEZdyhWpMFMg=Cc=1JNKOZpqQWh7zoQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <E145D632-BE6C-4CEB-A17B-8F45BC8CAF1A@synfin.org>
 <20160817064601.GB686@sivokote.iziade.m$>
 <20160817070106.GA1288@x220-a02>
 <20160817072456.GD686@sivokote.iziade.m$>
 <57b42065.89a7370a.3786e.ef50@mx.google.com>
 <20160817092427.GE686@sivokote.iziade.m$>
Message-ID: <57b4be42.8b9b370a.2f0cf.e4f6@mx.google.com>

On Wed, 17 Aug 2016 12:24:27 +0300
Georgi Guninski <guninski at guninski.com> wrote:


>  
> > 	https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vFdZ9t4Y5hQ
> 
> Would you explain what is this? I avoid videos.


	It's a video of a very small and unpredictable 'chaotic'
	system. A chaotic system like the atmosphere, though it's not
	huuuuge, unlike the atmosphere...






From zen at freedbms.net  Wed Aug 17 00:01:06 2016
From: zen at freedbms.net (Zenaan Harkness)
Date: Wed, 17 Aug 2016 17:01:06 +1000
Subject: Global warming/climate change
In-Reply-To: <20160817064601.GB686@sivokote.iziade.m$>
References: <20160816150853.GA16816@x220-a02>
 <7FD4B3D2-FD18-4F98-AD3C-EA87B9138C61@synfin.org>
 <CAN9H=iJoiC23E9KczY6SEZdyhWpMFMg=Cc=1JNKOZpqQWh7zoQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <E145D632-BE6C-4CEB-A17B-8F45BC8CAF1A@synfin.org>
 <20160817064601.GB686@sivokote.iziade.m$>
Message-ID: <20160817070106.GA1288@x220-a02>

On Wed, Aug 17, 2016 at 09:46:01AM +0300, Georgi Guninski wrote:
> On Tue, Aug 16, 2016 at 01:55:24PM -0400, John Newman wrote:
> > I disagree, vehemently.  Global warming is not a red herring.
> > Permafrost is melting, oceans are rising and acidifying, and the
> > future for big coastal cities is looking very bleak indeed.  There
> > is a scientific consensus on this issue.
> > 
> > But yes of course pollution does suck ass...
> >
> 
> There was a thread about this in April 2016:
> "Do you notice significant persistent change in climate?".
> 
> I see the climate changes in my lifetime so it is "fact" for me.

I see no one disputing climate change. Quite the contrary.


> Likely someone profits from this, but someone will try to profit from
> the destruction of Earth too.

Indeed.




From peter.bourgelais at gmail.com  Wed Aug 17 10:47:00 2016
From: peter.bourgelais at gmail.com (Peter Bourgelais)
Date: Wed, 17 Aug 2016 17:47:00 +0000
Subject: Riffle: an efficient communication system with strong anonymity
In-Reply-To: <159491471441891@web29g.yandex.ru>
References: <CAD2Ti2_LXzbkfCjNxge8TbzvzGhAMaMnqpLV1MSBrRE1ODt5rA@mail.gmail.com>
 <20160712084348.GC687@sivokote.iziade.m$>
 <20160802085509.GB688@sivokote.iziade.m$> <159491471441891@web29g.yandex.ru>
Message-ID: <f000b544-b280-5a48-9906-fd448c9de53b@gmail.com>

https://github.com/kwonalbert/riffle

Bastiani Fortress:
> Are there still no implementations yet?
> 
> 12:09 PM, August 2, 2016, Georgi Guninski <guninski at guninski.com>:
> 
>     On Tue, Jul 12, 2016 at 11:43:48AM +0300, Georgi Guninski wrote:
> 
>           On Mon, Jul 11, 2016 at 07:33:40PM -0400, grarpamp wrote:
>           > http://news.mit.edu/2016/stay-anonymous-online-0711
> 
>           Interesting. So far read only this (it is for dummies).
> 
>           Is riffle resistant to active timing attacks (possibly from internal
>           nodes)?
> 
>           Can sufficiently many malicious nodes cause total DOS? (I suspect they
>           will decrease performance at least).
> 
> 
>     Two days ago I spammed the authors of the Riffle paper with this, no
>     reply so far.
> 
>     My guess is it is vulnerable to active timing attacks, they are so
>     generic. Not sure at all jitter is solution.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> -- 
> You’re not from the Castle, you’re not from the village, you are nothing. 
> Unfortunately, though, you are something, a stranger.
> 

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From zen at freedbms.net  Wed Aug 17 02:03:10 2016
From: zen at freedbms.net (Zenaan Harkness)
Date: Wed, 17 Aug 2016 19:03:10 +1000
Subject: Global warming/climate change
In-Reply-To: <20160817072456.GD686@sivokote.iziade.m$>
References: <20160816150853.GA16816@x220-a02>
 <7FD4B3D2-FD18-4F98-AD3C-EA87B9138C61@synfin.org>
 <CAN9H=iJoiC23E9KczY6SEZdyhWpMFMg=Cc=1JNKOZpqQWh7zoQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <E145D632-BE6C-4CEB-A17B-8F45BC8CAF1A@synfin.org>
 <20160817064601.GB686@sivokote.iziade.m$>
 <20160817070106.GA1288@x220-a02>
 <20160817072456.GD686@sivokote.iziade.m$>
Message-ID: <20160817090310.GB1288@x220-a02>

On Wed, Aug 17, 2016 at 10:24:56AM +0300, Georgi Guninski wrote:
> On Wed, Aug 17, 2016 at 05:01:06PM +1000, Zenaan Harkness wrote:
> > > I see the climate changes in my lifetime so it is "fact" for me.
> > 
> > I see no one disputing climate change. Quite the contrary.
> >
> 
> Don't follow climate statistics (some may say numerology), but natural
> climate change should be _very slow_ IMHO and not detectable in a single
> lifetime at all, except at the border of something big.

I disagree - it's a chaotic system, chaotic as in fractal chaos theory
chaotic, meaning that a small change in one spot can cause a big change
elsewhere, butterfly effect and all that.

So we see whole ocean flows change in a period of 3 years or less, and
the consequence being England goes from quite balmy to ice and snow all
year round, and vice versa.

And, in one person's lifetime.

Long term global weather is a chaotic system.

Long term global anthropogenic temperature effects are currently most
politely described as "scientific theory" - and frankly that's a bit
generous - humans being human and all, mathematical models "attempting
to prove weather science" are not exactly solid beyond a few weeks.

But hey, I'm just a conspiracy theorist, don't mind me :)




From zen at freedbms.net  Wed Aug 17 02:04:40 2016
From: zen at freedbms.net (Zenaan Harkness)
Date: Wed, 17 Aug 2016 19:04:40 +1000
Subject: Global warming/climate change
In-Reply-To: <57b42065.89a7370a.3786e.ef50@mx.google.com>
References: <20160816150853.GA16816@x220-a02>
 <7FD4B3D2-FD18-4F98-AD3C-EA87B9138C61@synfin.org>
 <CAN9H=iJoiC23E9KczY6SEZdyhWpMFMg=Cc=1JNKOZpqQWh7zoQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <E145D632-BE6C-4CEB-A17B-8F45BC8CAF1A@synfin.org>
 <20160817064601.GB686@sivokote.iziade.m$>
 <20160817070106.GA1288@x220-a02>
 <20160817072456.GD686@sivokote.iziade.m$>
 <57b42065.89a7370a.3786e.ef50@mx.google.com>
Message-ID: <20160817090440.GC1288@x220-a02>

On Wed, Aug 17, 2016 at 05:34:18AM -0300, juan wrote:
> On Wed, 17 Aug 2016 10:24:56 +0300
> Georgi Guninski <guninski at guninski.com> wrote:
> 
> > On Wed, Aug 17, 2016 at 05:01:06PM +1000, Zenaan Harkness wrote:
> > > > I see the climate changes in my lifetime so it is "fact" for me.
> > > 
> > > I see no one disputing climate change. Quite the contrary.
> > >
> > 
> > Don't follow climate statistics (some may say numerology), but natural
> > climate change should be _very slow_ 
> 
> 
> 	Why? 
> 
> 	https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vFdZ9t4Y5hQ

:D  Perfect! Thanks..




From zen at freedbms.net  Wed Aug 17 02:11:52 2016
From: zen at freedbms.net (Zenaan Harkness)
Date: Wed, 17 Aug 2016 19:11:52 +1000
Subject: Hedge fund manager profited from death arbitrage.
In-Reply-To: <35034309.yE4TMqPlFj@lapuntu>
References: <1885626805.17266642.1471370963017.JavaMail.yahoo.ref@mail.yahoo.com>
 <6b98df1e-a91a-ca03-62e3-d61566f40422@riseup.net>
 <20160817040102.GL16816@x220-a02> <35034309.yE4TMqPlFj@lapuntu>
Message-ID: <20160817091152.GD1288@x220-a02>

On Wed, Aug 17, 2016 at 09:42:15AM +0200, rysiek wrote:
> Dnia środa, 17 sierpnia 2016 14:01:02 CEST Zenaan Harkness pisze:
> > On Tue, Aug 16, 2016 at 09:07:59PM -0600, Mirimir wrote:
> > > On 08/16/2016 12:09 PM, jim bell wrote:
> > > 
> > > <SNIP>
> > > 
> > > > AP ('Assassination Politics';  https://cryptome.org/ap.htm  ) can
> > > > be considered to be 'death arbitrage' with a few key differences:
> > > > The person who will die isn't part of the agreement, and doesn't
> > > > profit when the initial deal is struck, nor later.
> > > 
> > > Ah, but someone with a huge bet on their death could commit suicide, and
> > > so their estate would profit. Or is that against AP rules?
> > 
> > "The rules" are the rules formed in the respective contracts, presumably
> > - how could it be any other way?
> > 
> > Therefore unsuccessful or "gamed" contracts would be the fodder of
> > lessons learnt for future contracts in the competitive market for
> > assassination contracts, which is that which AP presupposes...
> 
> Yeah, because that approach worked so well for The DAO. :)

I like comedy as much as you, but a joke does not take away from the
principle of a competitive market for systems, over the long term. The
DAO was not a single contract, nor a series of contracts. It was "a
contract in a competitive market for contracts" in the sense that it was
"a decentralised investment fund/ market maker" in the market for
"decentralized investment funds/ market makers".

But I assume you knew that..




From mirimir at riseup.net  Wed Aug 17 18:46:09 2016
From: mirimir at riseup.net (Mirimir)
Date: Wed, 17 Aug 2016 19:46:09 -0600
Subject: Rising carbon dioxide is greening the Earth - but it's not all
 good news
In-Reply-To: <745972E0-C19D-4DC9-A5C2-9ECA5847F2A1@synfin.org>
References: <20160817232427.GA10672@x220-a02>
 <745972E0-C19D-4DC9-A5C2-9ECA5847F2A1@synfin.org>
Message-ID: <fa43f65b-6464-f1d7-6f4e-31a804698986@riseup.net>

On 08/17/2016 07:11 PM, John Newman wrote:
> 
>> On Aug 17, 2016, at 7:24 PM, Zenaan Harkness <zen at freedbms.net> wrote:
>>
>> Thought someone posted a link like this back in the April thread - could
>> not find that, so posting here.
>>
>> Increasing atmospheric carbon dioxide levels is a genuinely good thing.
>>
>>
>> CO2 is making Earth greener—for now
>> http://climate.nasa.gov/news/2436/co2-is-making-earth-greenerfor-now/
>>
> 
> This is direct quote from your first nasa link :  
> 
> "While rising carbon dioxide concentrations in the air can be beneficial for plants, it is also the chief culprit of climate change. The gas, which traps heat in Earth’s atmosphere, has been increasing since the industrial age due to the burning of oil, gas, coal and wood for energy and is continuing to reach concentrations not seen in at least 500,000 years. The impacts of climate change include global warming, rising sea levels, melting glaciers and sea ice as well as more severe weather events."
> 
> John 

Arguing about anthropogenic climate forcing is just fucking useless. The
latency is too great, and there are too many positive feedbacks. By the
time that impacts are undeniable enough to motivate substantial
reductions in CO2 emissions, it will be too late.




From zen at freedbms.net  Wed Aug 17 02:52:25 2016
From: zen at freedbms.net (Zenaan Harkness)
Date: Wed, 17 Aug 2016 19:52:25 +1000
Subject: Global warming/climate change
In-Reply-To: <20160817092427.GE686@sivokote.iziade.m$>
References: <20160816150853.GA16816@x220-a02>
 <7FD4B3D2-FD18-4F98-AD3C-EA87B9138C61@synfin.org>
 <CAN9H=iJoiC23E9KczY6SEZdyhWpMFMg=Cc=1JNKOZpqQWh7zoQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <E145D632-BE6C-4CEB-A17B-8F45BC8CAF1A@synfin.org>
 <20160817064601.GB686@sivokote.iziade.m$>
 <20160817070106.GA1288@x220-a02>
 <20160817072456.GD686@sivokote.iziade.m$>
 <57b42065.89a7370a.3786e.ef50@mx.google.com>
 <20160817092427.GE686@sivokote.iziade.m$>
Message-ID: <20160817095225.GE1288@x220-a02>

> > 	https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vFdZ9t4Y5hQ
> 
> Would you explain what is this? I avoid videos.

chaotic magnet demonstration




From peter.bourgelais at gmail.com  Wed Aug 17 12:55:00 2016
From: peter.bourgelais at gmail.com (Peter Bourgelais)
Date: Wed, 17 Aug 2016 19:55:00 +0000
Subject: Riffle: an efficient communication system with strong anonymity
In-Reply-To: <159491471441891@web29g.yandex.ru>
References: <CAD2Ti2_LXzbkfCjNxge8TbzvzGhAMaMnqpLV1MSBrRE1ODt5rA@mail.gmail.com>
 <20160712084348.GC687@sivokote.iziade.m$>
 <20160802085509.GB688@sivokote.iziade.m$> <159491471441891@web29g.yandex.ru>
Message-ID: <51e6ef0d-6458-b239-8ad6-20a67725cdc4@gmail.com>

There is this: https://github.com/kwonalbert/riffle

Bastiani Fortress:
> Are there still no implementations yet?
> 
> 12:09 PM, August 2, 2016, Georgi Guninski <guninski at guninski.com>:
> 
>     On Tue, Jul 12, 2016 at 11:43:48AM +0300, Georgi Guninski wrote:
> 
>           On Mon, Jul 11, 2016 at 07:33:40PM -0400, grarpamp wrote:
>           > http://news.mit.edu/2016/stay-anonymous-online-0711
> 
>           Interesting. So far read only this (it is for dummies).
> 
>           Is riffle resistant to active timing attacks (possibly from internal
>           nodes)?
> 
>           Can sufficiently many malicious nodes cause total DOS? (I suspect they
>           will decrease performance at least).
> 
> 
>     Two days ago I spammed the authors of the Riffle paper with this, no
>     reply so far.
> 
>     My guess is it is vulnerable to active timing attacks, they are so
>     generic. Not sure at all jitter is solution.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> -- 
> You’re not from the Castle, you’re not from the village, you are nothing. 
> Unfortunately, though, you are something, a stranger.
> 




From jnn at synfin.org  Wed Aug 17 18:11:44 2016
From: jnn at synfin.org (John Newman)
Date: Wed, 17 Aug 2016 21:11:44 -0400
Subject: Rising carbon dioxide is greening the Earth - but it's not all
 good news
In-Reply-To: <20160817232427.GA10672@x220-a02>
References: <20160817232427.GA10672@x220-a02>
Message-ID: <745972E0-C19D-4DC9-A5C2-9ECA5847F2A1@synfin.org>


> On Aug 17, 2016, at 7:24 PM, Zenaan Harkness <zen at freedbms.net> wrote:
> 
> Thought someone posted a link like this back in the April thread - could
> not find that, so posting here.
> 
> Increasing atmospheric carbon dioxide levels is a genuinely good thing.
> 
> 
> CO2 is making Earth greener—for now
> http://climate.nasa.gov/news/2436/co2-is-making-earth-greenerfor-now/
> 

This is direct quote from your first nasa link :  

"While rising carbon dioxide concentrations in the air can be beneficial for plants, it is also the chief culprit of climate change. The gas, which traps heat in Earth’s atmosphere, has been increasing since the industrial age due to the burning of oil, gas, coal and wood for energy and is continuing to reach concentrations not seen in at least 500,000 years. The impacts of climate change include global warming, rising sea levels, melting glaciers and sea ice as well as more severe weather events."

John 







From carimachet at gmail.com  Wed Aug 17 11:49:44 2016
From: carimachet at gmail.com (Cari Machet)
Date: Wed, 17 Aug 2016 21:49:44 +0300
Subject: Riffle: an efficient communication system with strong anonymity
In-Reply-To: <578432b2.93cf370a.43986.1e23@mx.google.com>
References: <CAD2Ti2_LXzbkfCjNxge8TbzvzGhAMaMnqpLV1MSBrRE1ODt5rA@mail.gmail.com>
 <578432b2.93cf370a.43986.1e23@mx.google.com>
Message-ID: <CAGRDzQUxbzvUeEVCAtjtXc1uTnFJaydAcnUS5HAJ7NBGikzhww@mail.gmail.com>

On Tue, Jul 12, 2016 at 3:01 AM, juan <juan.g71 at gmail.com> wrote:

> On Mon, 11 Jul 2016 19:33:40 -0400
> grarpamp <grarpamp at gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > http://news.mit.edu/2016/stay-anonymous-online-0711
>
>
>         "But the recent discovery of vulnerabilities in the most
>         popular of these networks — Tor —"
>
>         Recent? LMAO at these shitbags. On the other hand, what would
>         the tor bots say, now that it's vox populi at places like mit
>         that their beloved 'anonimity' scam doesn't work?
>

recently humans invented a way to make the fire


>
>
>         "The heart of the system is a series of servers called a
>         mixnet. "
>
>         Go figure. I thought mixnets had been rejected by the greatest
>         geniuses of the crypto world, lead by that motherfucking
>         scumbag paul syverson? Or maybe that was a tor-thing too...
>

fatherfucking



-- 
Cari Machet
NYC 646-436-7795
carimachet at gmail.com
AIM carismachet
Syria +963-099 277 3243
Amman +962 077 636 9407
Berlin +49 152 11779219
Reykjavik +354 894 8650
Twitter: @carimachet <https://twitter.com/carimachet>

7035 690E 5E47 41D4 B0E5 B3D1 AF90 49D6 BE09 2187

Ruh-roh, this is now necessary: This email is intended only for the
addressee(s) and may contain confidential information. If you are not the
intended recipient, you are hereby notified that any use of this
information, dissemination, distribution, or copying of this email without
permission is strictly prohibited.
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From grarpamp at gmail.com  Wed Aug 17 21:11:11 2016
From: grarpamp at gmail.com (grarpamp)
Date: Thu, 18 Aug 2016 00:11:11 -0400
Subject: Equation Group - Cyber Weapons Auction
Message-ID: <CAD2Ti2-Te-E0_mD=dvurFrD5OSRshy7Apo5pFW=ST4euyQ2-cw@mail.gmail.com>

http://pastebin.com/NDTU5kJQ
a guest Aug 13th, 2016 27,472 Never
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA256

From:

bitmessage = BM-NBvAHfp5Y6wBykgbirVLndZtEFCYGht8
i2p-bote =  o1uHOkOcMoFEa7O7dbEilzfMvWzo7bDu~td3x9gYz4b4t5OriJ7U6GUWr5GZoWxQ9f2TrIY5RzhpIMVP6hTLXZ


Equation Group Cyber Weapons Auction - Invitation
- ------------------------------------------------

!!! Attention government sponsors of cyber warfare and those who
profit from it !!!!

How much you pay for enemies cyber weapons? Not malware you find in
networks. Both sides, RAT + LP, full state sponsor tool set? We find
cyber weapons made by creators of stuxnet, duqu, flame. Kaspersky
calls Equation Group. We follow Equation Group traffic. We find
Equation Group source range. We hack Equation Group. We find many many
Equation Group cyber weapons. You see pictures. We give you some
Equation Group files free, you see. This is good proof no? You
enjoy!!! You break many things. You find many intrusions. You write
many words. But not all, we are auction the best files.

Picture Urls
- ------------
http://imgur.com/a/sYpyn
https://theshadowbrokers.tumblr.com/
https://github.com/theshadowbrokers/EQGRP-AUCTION

File Urls
- ----------

magnet:?xt=urn:btih:40a5f1514514fb67943f137f7fde0a7b5e991f76&tr=http://diftracker.i2p/announce.php

https://mega.nz/#!zEAU1AQL!oWJ63n-D6lCuCQ4AY0Cv_405hX8kn7MEsa1iLH5UjKU
https://app.box.com/s/amgkpu1d9ttijyeyw2m4lso3egb4sola
https://www.dropbox.com/s/g8kvfl4xtj2vr24/EQGRP-Auction-Files.zip
https://ln.sync.com/dl/5bd1916d0#eet5ufvg-tjijei4j-vtadjk6b-imyg2qkd
https://yadi.sk/d/QY6smCgTtoNz6


Free Files (Proof)
- ------------------
eqgrp-free-file.tar.xz.gpg

sha256sum = b5961eee7cb3eca209b92436ed7bdd74e025bf615b90c408829156d128c7a169

gpg --decrypt --output eqgrp-free-file.tar.xz eqgrp-free-file.tar.xz.gpg

Password = theequationgroup


Auction Files
- -------------
eqgrp_auction_file.tar.xz.asc

sha256sum = af1dabd8eceec79409742cc9d9a20b9651058bbb8d2ce60a0edcfa568d91dbea

Password = ????


Auction Instructions
- --------------------
We auction best files to highest bidder. Auction files better than
stuxnet. Auction files better than free files we already give you. The
party which sends most bitcoins to address:
19BY2XCgbDe6WtTVbTyzM9eR3LYr6VitWK before bidding stops is winner, we
tell how to decrypt. Very important!!! When you send bitcoin you add
additional output to transaction. You add OP_Return output. In
Op_Return output you put your (bidder) contact info. We suggest use
bitmessage or I2P-bote email address. No other information will be
disclosed by us publicly. Do not believe unsigned messages. We will
contact winner with decryption instructions. Winner can do with files
as they please, we not release files to public.


FAQ
- ---
Q: Why I want auction files, why send bitcoin? A: If you like free
files (proof), you send bitcoin. If you want know your networks
hacked, you send bitcoin. If you want hack networks as like equation
group, you send bitcoin. If you want reverse, write many words, make
big name for self, get many customers, you send bitcoin. If want to
know what we take, you send bitcoin.

Q: What is in auction files? A: Is secret. Equation Group not know
what lost. We want Equation Group to bid so we keep secret. You bid
against Equation Group, win and find out or bid pump price up, piss
them off, everyone wins.

Q: What if bid and no win, get bitcoins back? A: Sorry lose bidding
war lose bitcoin and files. Lose Lose. Bid to win! But maybe not total
loss. Instead to losers we give consolation prize. If our auction
raises 1,000,000 (million) btc total, then we dump more Equation Group
files, same quality, unencrypted, for free, to everyone.

Q: When does auction end? A: Unknown. When we feel is time to end.
Keep bidding until we announce winner.

Q: Why I trust you? A: No trust, risk. You like reward, you take risk,
maybe win, maybe not, no guarantees. There could be hack, steal, jail,
dead, or war tomorrow. You worry more, protect self from other
bidders, trolls, and haters.


Closing Remarks
- --------------------------------------------------

!!! Attention Wealthy Elites !!!

We have final message for "Wealthy Elites". We know what is wealthy
but what is Elites? Elites is making laws protect self and friends,
lie and fuck other peoples. Elites is breaking laws, regular peoples
go to jail, life ruin, family ruin, but not Elites. Elites is breaking
laws, many peoples know Elites guilty, Elites call top friends at law
enforcement and government agencies, offer bribes, make promise future
handjobs, (but no blowjobs). Elites top friends announce, no law
broken, no crime commit. Reporters (not call journalist) make living
say write only nice things about Elites, convince dumb cattle, is just
politics, everything is awesome, check out our ads and our
prostitutes. Then Elites runs for president. Why run for president
when already control country like dictatorship? What this have do with
fun Cyber Weapons Auction? We want make sure Wealthy Elite recognizes
the danger cyber weapons, this message, our auction, poses to their
wealth and control. Let us spell out for Elites. Your wealth and
control depends on electronic data. You see what "Equation Group" can
do. You see what cryptolockers and stuxnet can do. You see free files
we give for free. You see attacks on banks and SWIFT in news. Maybe
there is Equation Group version of cryptolocker+stuxnet for banks and
financial systems? If Equation Group lose control of cyber weapons,
who else lose or find cyber weapons? If electronic data go bye bye
where leave Wealthy Elites? Maybe with dumb cattle? "Do you feel in
charge?" Wealthy Elites, you send bitcoins, you bid in auction, maybe
big advantage for you?


bitmessage = BM-NBvAHfp5Y6wBykgbirVLndZtEFCYGht8
i2p-bote =  o1uHOkOcMoFEa7O7dbEilzfMvWzo7bDu~td3x9gYz4b4t5OriJ7U6GUWr5GZoWxQ9f2TrIY5RzhpIMVP6hTLXZ

END MESSAGE









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DMAExiPnrehGYTcxrrOP28RB+Mw7Is5YwRpc/h0mwDYGijjUzXGLXPWKFLa8ksxR
zdaUnAjJzhVwR4IVGmGlU687Ox0FayJz9LAhst5eiittciY0iooz8YLee8hrxD7C
XqUIpr4n+QKMYs4AfWd+
=5yni
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----





From grarpamp at gmail.com  Wed Aug 17 22:28:27 2016
From: grarpamp at gmail.com (grarpamp)
Date: Thu, 18 Aug 2016 01:28:27 -0400
Subject: Revolt Against Tor Over Rape Claims, Process, Board, Etc
Message-ID: <CAD2Ti29vFX019pRtiF11o8JGwMK7tpmQdHJ5Qu9hzDv_kzcpTA@mail.gmail.com>

https://twitter.com/wikileaks/status/765933853143859200
8:30 AM - 17 Aug 2016
Tor revolt over rape claims...

https://twitter.com/shiromarieke/status/765634647485214720
12:41 PM - 16 Aug 2016
Today I am quitting @torproject I published my letter to tor-internal here:
https://shiromarieke.github.io/tor
I am not exactly sure how to start this email. To be honest, I never
imagined I'd ever be writing this kind of letter to Tor, a project I
used to respect a lot and was very excited to contribute to. Having
been almost totally silent on Tor-related topics on all public
channels for the last months doesn't make it easier for me to talk
today....

https://www.oneeyedman.net/?p=2581
Posted on August 16, 2016 by dwrob
My Letter To The Tor Project
Dear Shari,
As you know, police raided my Seattle home in April because I was
operating a Tor exit. You and I have planned to discuss Tor’s response...
Here are some of the issues that compel my decision...

https://contraspin.co.nz/the-weaponising-of-social-part-3-the-resurrection-of-ioerror/
August 16, 2016
The Weaponising Of Social Part 3: The Resurrection Of IOError
The genesis of this groundbreaking series was a moral obligation to
highlight obvious discrepancies in the coordinated smears against
Jacob Appelbaum (IOError). That smear campaign’s self-pronounced and
ostensibly achieved aim was to permanently shut down his
(anti-surveillance, anti-three-letter-agency) public speaking by
casting him out from the very communities he has dedicated his life to
supporting.
Implemented, that aim had very little to do with protecting actual
rape victims but everything to do with manipulating (by asserting
social control over) the speaking circuit which is the visible face of
the privacy and infosec movements, as well as dominating the critical
infrastructure and the corporate structure (at board level) of the Tor
Project...

http://rixstep.com/2/2/20160817,00.shtml
http://rixstep.com/2/2/20160717,00.shtml
2016-08-17
Tor 6.0.4
Happenstance, coincidence, enemy action?
Not that there's necessarily any connection to Jakegate (it can't be
ruled out either) but the latest updates of Tor have been a
frightening mess. Why does Tor suddenly dump over 30 megabloats of
steaming faeces onto a file system on exit...

"I know other people at Tor and in the broader community have similar
feelings, and I hope this will encourage them to speak up." --
shiromarieke





From admin at pilobilus.net  Wed Aug 17 22:39:05 2016
From: admin at pilobilus.net (Steve Kinney)
Date: Thu, 18 Aug 2016 01:39:05 -0400
Subject: TOR Project: Still coming unwrapped
Message-ID: <c0f3b71b-43b4-7c55-6224-ceccd717e837@pilobilus.net>

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1

Holy F Society, the TOR Project just came unwrapped.  MORE.  This
essay keeps getting more outrageous, without losing credibility, until
it turns a corner that "network security" people could easily
attribute to hostile tradecraft.

https://shiromarieke.github.io/tor



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=e8hU
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----




From grarpamp at gmail.com  Wed Aug 17 23:23:06 2016
From: grarpamp at gmail.com (grarpamp)
Date: Thu, 18 Aug 2016 02:23:06 -0400
Subject: Bitcoin Warns Of State Attack In Binaries
Message-ID: <CAD2Ti29we3hGOMxdYjsMu-P+C8=snrDTL2kam26TzvFVauyZxg@mail.gmail.com>

https://bitcoin.org/en/alert/2016-08-17-binary-safety
0.13.0 Binary Safety Warning
17 August 2016
Summary

Bitcoin.org has reason to suspect that the binaries for the upcoming
Bitcoin Core release will likely be targeted by state sponsored
attackers. As a website, Bitcoin.org does not have the necessary
technical resources to guarantee that we can defend ourselves from
attackers of this calibre. We ask the Bitcoin community, and in
particular the Chinese Bitcoin community to be extra vigilant when
downloading binaries from our website.

In such a situation, not being careful before you download binaries
could cause you to lose all your coins. This malicious software might
also cause your computer to participate in attacks against the Bitcoin
network. We believe Chinese services such as pools and exchanges are
most at risk here due to the origin of the attackers.
Mitigation

The hashes of Bitcoin Core binaries are cryptographically signed with this key.

We strongly recommend that you download that key, which should have a
fingerprint of 01EA5486DE18A882D4C2684590C8019E36C2E964. You should
securely verify the signature and hashes before running any Bitcoin
Core binaries. This is the safest and most secure way of being
confident that the binaries you’re running are the same ones created
by the Core Developers.





From grarpamp at gmail.com  Wed Aug 17 23:52:54 2016
From: grarpamp at gmail.com (grarpamp)
Date: Thu, 18 Aug 2016 02:52:54 -0400
Subject: US election: both candidates are shit, system broken
Message-ID: <CAD2Ti2-7dPOk4bd3SDxQ6rJGMWGJh3pEvJrpesom4fOejreSRQ@mail.gmail.com>

https://contraspin.co.nz/just-as-intended-the-u-s-election-is-tearing-us-to-shreds/
Just As Intended: The U.S. Election Is Tearing Us To Shreds
July 29, 2016

The only credible narrative about the US election is that both the
main candidates are shit and the system is fundamentally broken.

The third-party candidate, while enjoying organic growth in public
support, is largely blacklisted by media and in the last election
cycle was handcuffed to a chair for a prolonged period of time in
order to prevent her from participating in the Presidential debates at
all.

In the backwards Orwellian nightmare we live in, exercising common
sense or stating things as they quite plainly are and thus expressing
views that oppose the monied and complicit status quo, is deemed a
‘radical’ and untenable position.

Radical because too few have the proverbial balls to openly speak
their mind or own the full extent of their true opinions in public,
making those of us who do a rarity.

Untenable because doing so makes you a target for relentless
persecution or worse; a deterrent which is highly effective against
those who treasure their public perception or persona, possessions,
property, prosperity or (perceived) privacy above the need to appease
their conscience by calling a spade a spade, honouring their humanity
and openly advocating for the sociopolitical evolution we so
desperately need.

It was only a few years ago that millions of people were emboldened to
speak up and demand radical (read: common sense) change. The relative
speed with which they were largely subdued and corralled back into the
political mainstream is frankly shocking and testament to the lethal
efficiency of the systems of social control that surround us.

Even Occupy Has Forgotten What Occupy Is About

“No true democracy is obtainable when the process is determined by
economic power.” – The Occupy Wall Street General Assembly


wikileaks, etc...





From grarpamp at gmail.com  Thu Aug 18 00:01:18 2016
From: grarpamp at gmail.com (grarpamp)
Date: Thu, 18 Aug 2016 03:01:18 -0400
Subject: Bitcoin Warns Of State Attack In Binaries
In-Reply-To: <20160818064253.GB1870@sivokote.iziade.m$>
References: <CAD2Ti29we3hGOMxdYjsMu-P+C8=snrDTL2kam26TzvFVauyZxg@mail.gmail.com>
 <20160818064253.GB1870@sivokote.iziade.m$>
Message-ID: <CAD2Ti2-96oq5BRbFYGdHp9_X5OpXNWySD_C5tHqMxRUe_vYrgg@mail.gmail.com>

On 8/18/16, Georgi Guninski <guninski at guninski.com> wrote:
> Is this a joke?

Guessing this means they think Equation Group can
and wants to get to their servers. Though the Chinese
thing is a harder guess, other than for some reason
bitcoin.org wants to protect them, even if only because
Chinese effectively are bitcoin.




From grarpamp at gmail.com  Thu Aug 18 00:47:54 2016
From: grarpamp at gmail.com (grarpamp)
Date: Thu, 18 Aug 2016 03:47:54 -0400
Subject: Die Zeit interviews Appelbaum ioerror
In-Reply-To: <CAD2Ti28MN38-N2qty68dRmjGQ2yH3dVqSS0Uur+GvjusFT_QeA@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAD2Ti2-NXpt9293VJV95k+7Z0eh68j8iEJRjURJZgvgYQy4fYg@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAD2Ti28MN38-N2qty68dRmjGQ2yH3dVqSS0Uur+GvjusFT_QeA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAD2Ti28w2HpeA_d1tFaDy-fBSHc9jnCkFYe_LBYKTVrX-jx5Kw@mail.gmail.com>

On 8/12/16, grarpamp <grarpamp at gmail.com> wrote:
>> Tracking mentions...
>> https://github.com/Enegnei/JacobAppelbaumLeavesTor

https://archive.is/A1EuX
Jun 28th, 2016
dave chasteen, cia
tor-internal Hi. Please be gentle..


https://contraspin.co.nz/orwells-swan-song-free-speech-activists-whitewashing-wikipedia-to-silence-dissent/
Orwell’s Swan Song: Free Speech Activists Whitewashing Wikipedia To
Silence Dissent
July 12, 2016
If you’d told me a year ago that I’d be writing a blogpost in July
2016 about how EFF and TorProject supporters are actively censoring
free speech on the internet, I would have thought I’d be writing it
for The Onion.
Unfortunately, I’m not...





From deorgie at gmail.com  Thu Aug 18 02:53:04 2016
From: deorgie at gmail.com (Deorge Chesterton)
Date: Thu, 18 Aug 2016 03:53:04 -0600
Subject: Equation Group - Cyber Weapons Auction
In-Reply-To: <20160818075356.GC1870@sivokote.iziade.m$>
References: <CAD2Ti2-Te-E0_mD=dvurFrD5OSRshy7Apo5pFW=ST4euyQ2-cw@mail.gmail.com>
 <20160818061709.GA1870@sivokote.iziade.m$> <20160818065209.GF10672@x220-a02>
 <20160818075356.GC1870@sivokote.iziade.m$>
Message-ID: <0e90cf0b-9718-56cb-6639-eef6f95f5984@gmail.com>

Alright, who's the lurker from VICE

http://motherboard.vice.com/read/someone-rickrolled-the-bitcoin-auction-for-nsa-exploits



On 8/18/2016 01:53, Georgi Guninski wrote:
> On Thu, Aug 18, 2016 at 04:52:09PM +1000, Zenaan Harkness wrote:
>> On Thu, Aug 18, 2016 at 09:17:09AM +0300, Georgi Guninski wrote:
>>> On Thu, Aug 18, 2016 at 12:11:11AM -0400, grarpamp wrote:
>>>> http://pastebin.com/NDTU5kJQ
>>> The auction live on air:
>>> https://blockchain.info/address/19BY2XCgbDe6WtTVbTyzM9eR3LYr6VitWK
>> :D
>>
>> Either way, fun to watch :)
> Much better than the Olympics ;)
>
> The bitcoin addresses look somewhat weird to me.
> IIRC they are formed from some crypto stuff of the user and the user
> has _some_ control of it at least via bruteforce.
> I suspect the user can't chose the address directly.
>
> Here are the addresses in the last transactions, spaces added by me:
>
> 1 never 9kNNkr27UseZSHnaEHg1z8v3Mbb
> 1 gonna V3MFNjymS4RGvUbHACstiS8aSYz
> 1 give GEk184Gwep2KT4UBPTcE9oqWzCVR
> 1 you KBMLEohsexdZtkvnTzHnc4iU7Ffty
> 1 up AbpBEWQ467QNT7i4vBMVPzSfQ3sqoQ
> 1 never 9kNNkr27UseZSHnaEHg1z8v3Mbb
> 1 gonna V3MFNjymS4RGvUbHACstiS8aSYz
> 1 1et AyypstpXLQpTgoYmYzT8M2foBSBe1
> 1 you KBMLEohsexdZtkvnTzHnc4iU7Ffty
> 1 down AsBbRQcBfUj8rgQomqhRsNFf1jMo
> ...skip some...
> 1 nice C9Xz1rBLvwcphRUVU4GEfaVzvTwa
>
> Reading downwards, this makes sense in English in _consecutive
> transactions_ (except the last).
>
> If the addresses were random, the probability of this happening
> appears very low IMHO, what does math say?
>
> Is this known bitcoin joke/weak steganography?





From grarpamp at gmail.com  Thu Aug 18 00:54:39 2016
From: grarpamp at gmail.com (grarpamp)
Date: Thu, 18 Aug 2016 03:54:39 -0400
Subject: US election: both candidates are shit, system broken
In-Reply-To: <CAD2Ti2-7dPOk4bd3SDxQ6rJGMWGJh3pEvJrpesom4fOejreSRQ@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAD2Ti2-7dPOk4bd3SDxQ6rJGMWGJh3pEvJrpesom4fOejreSRQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAD2Ti2_o6OocUG7WZoB_6-fccbYZJsKMZZcv_3aBiP0Jku67rw@mail.gmail.com>

https://theintercept.com/2016/08/16/hillary-clinton-picks-tpp-and-fracking-advocate-to-set-up-her-white-house/

Clinton for TPP and Fracking in the White House.




From grarpamp at gmail.com  Thu Aug 18 01:04:02 2016
From: grarpamp at gmail.com (grarpamp)
Date: Thu, 18 Aug 2016 04:04:02 -0400
Subject: Equation Group - Cyber Weapons Auction
In-Reply-To: <20160818075356.GC1870@sivokote.iziade.m$>
References: <CAD2Ti2-Te-E0_mD=dvurFrD5OSRshy7Apo5pFW=ST4euyQ2-cw@mail.gmail.com>
 <20160818061709.GA1870@sivokote.iziade.m$> <20160818065209.GF10672@x220-a02>
 <20160818075356.GC1870@sivokote.iziade.m$>
Message-ID: <CAD2Ti2-mh5ne0jS2vy3Gwnn57kdCy7LgvqyefMmdkoyRT-ZCoA@mail.gmail.com>

On 8/18/16, Georgi Guninski <guninski at guninski.com> wrote:
>> > The auction live on air:
>> > https://blockchain.info/address/19BY2XCgbDe6WtTVbTyzM9eR3LYr6VitWK

> Much better than the Olympics ;)

Election year taking on a whole new world of meaning.
Just think of what fun go down 4 years from now :)

> Here are the addresses in the last transactions, spaces added by me:
> Reading downwards, this makes sense in English

Lol, rickrolled. If they got free coin, why can't anybody ever
rickroll me some .1337 coin too... dafuckwitdatshitbro?
bitcoin:1CCdLCCGuWVTu1MU4g4MtbVMCnSUZJ46Gc




From juan.g71 at gmail.com  Thu Aug 18 01:36:31 2016
From: juan.g71 at gmail.com (juan)
Date: Thu, 18 Aug 2016 05:36:31 -0300
Subject: TOR Project: Still coming unwrapped
In-Reply-To: <20160818065108.GE10672@x220-a02>
References: <c0f3b71b-43b4-7c55-6224-ceccd717e837@pilobilus.net>
 <20160818065108.GE10672@x220-a02>
Message-ID: <57b57265.e928c80a.cbe6f.1c63@mx.google.com>

On Thu, 18 Aug 2016 16:51:08 +1000
Zenaan Harkness <zen at freedbms.net> wrote:

> On Thu, Aug 18, 2016 at 01:39:05AM -0400, Steve Kinney wrote:
> > -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
> > Hash: SHA1
> > 
> > Holy F Society, the TOR Project just came unwrapped.  MORE.  This
> > essay keeps getting more outrageous, without losing credibility,
> > until it turns a corner that "network security" people could easily
> > attribute to hostile tradecraft.
> > 
> > https://shiromarieke.github.io/tor
> 
> Juan, Juan, Juan! This is a firetrucking joke, that just keeps getting
> worserer and worserer!!
> 
> Can we blame you Juan? "If you had not have been so public, so bold
> and so relentless about the truth of the Tor Inc and retro-pistoning
> of the USA gov TLAs via Tor, perhaps we would still be able to
> continue in ignorance and this mess would have stayed behind closed
> doors?"
> 
> How could you Juan? How could you be so right?


	Well, I'm not sure what I'm getting credit for? =P 

	I mean, I'm pretty sure the tor project is corrupt to the core
	and its main objective is to futher the interests of the US
	military, but very few people give a damn about that. 

	At the moment the tor project is news not because the corrupt
	fucks are getting their just deserts*, but because of
	some incredibly retarded, feminazi soap opera. 
	


*like, I don't know, being blown to pieces by some arab 'terrist',
sometrhig any US military contractor fully deserves. 




> Speaking the -truth- is
> what has destroyed this community, surely not the
> rear-end-reciprocation of the Tor bots (god how depressing is that
> phrase now) ???
> 
> It's just not fair...<sheds a tear and sculls a glass of warm milk>





From jnn at synfin.org  Thu Aug 18 03:50:28 2016
From: jnn at synfin.org (John)
Date: Thu, 18 Aug 2016 06:50:28 -0400
Subject: Bitcoin Warns Of State Attack In Binaries
In-Reply-To: <CAD2Ti29we3hGOMxdYjsMu-P+C8=snrDTL2kam26TzvFVauyZxg@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAD2Ti29we3hGOMxdYjsMu-P+C8=snrDTL2kam26TzvFVauyZxg@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <F05FA631-C59F-43A7-AACA-A0F4FAE2FC4B@synfin.org>

At work I've seen a Bitcoin miner trojan (it's a Windows nullsoft exe masked as a .scr file wrapped up in a file called info.zip) trying to propagate itself through the couple of ftp servers we have open to the world, one of which has a few places that the anonymous guest user can dump (but not list or download) files....

All the attacks have come within the past two weeks from IP addresses all over India....

I don't have the sha256 at hand to send the virustotal link but it's this fucker:

https://brica.de/alerts/alert/public/1004599/obfuscated-bitcoin-miner-propagates-through-ftp-using-password-dictionary/

Luckily no users have been infected :). (AFAICT && I fucking hope & pray)


John

On August 18, 2016 2:23:06 AM EDT, grarpamp <grarpamp at gmail.com> wrote:
>https://bitcoin.org/en/alert/2016-08-17-binary-safety
>0.13.0 Binary Safety Warning
>17 August 2016
>Summary
>
>Bitcoin.org has reason to suspect that the binaries for the upcoming
>Bitcoin Core release will likely be targeted by state sponsored
>attackers. As a website, Bitcoin.org does not have the necessary
>technical resources to guarantee that we can defend ourselves from
>attackers of this calibre. We ask the Bitcoin community, and in
>particular the Chinese Bitcoin community to be extra vigilant when
>downloading binaries from our website.
>
>In such a situation, not being careful before you download binaries
>could cause you to lose all your coins. This malicious software might
>also cause your computer to participate in attacks against the Bitcoin
>network. We believe Chinese services such as pools and exchanges are
>most at risk here due to the origin of the attackers.
>Mitigation
>
>The hashes of Bitcoin Core binaries are cryptographically signed with
>this key.
>
>We strongly recommend that you download that key, which should have a
>fingerprint of 01EA5486DE18A882D4C2684590C8019E36C2E964. You should
>securely verify the signature and hashes before running any Bitcoin
>Core binaries. This is the safest and most secure way of being
>confident that the binaries you’re running are the same ones created
>by the Core Developers.

-- 
Sent from my Android device with K-9 Mail. Please excuse my brevity.
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From jnn at synfin.org  Thu Aug 18 05:51:12 2016
From: jnn at synfin.org (John Newman)
Date: Thu, 18 Aug 2016 08:51:12 -0400
Subject: =?utf-8?Q?Re:_[JUSTICE]_The_Netherlands_to_close_more_prisons:_H?=
 =?utf-8?Q?ere=E2=80=99s_what_Australia_could_learn.?=
In-Reply-To: <20160818094852.GJ10672@x220-a02>
References: <20160818094852.GJ10672@x220-a02>
Message-ID: <98711DCB-C79A-4358-AE4D-19ECD88D23C8@synfin.org>

Wow, at least a step in the right direction... looks 1000x more humane than American privatized gulag, where shareholder return is the primary concern...


John

> On Aug 18, 2016, at 5:48 AM, Zenaan Harkness <zen at freedbms.net> wrote:
> 
> An example worth highlighting, at least compared to the USA and
> Australian "justice" systems.
> 
> 
> ----- Forwarded message from Jim <jim.sovereign at optusnet.com.au> -----
> 
> The Netherlands to close more prisons: Here’s what Australia could learn
> 
> news.com.au
> Debra Killalea  
> August 3, 2016
> 
> 
> 
> Dutch Prison System: How it works
> 
> 
> THE days are filled playing sport, reading, and practising new skills.
> There is learning, course work and open communication with support
> networks is strongly encouraged.
> 
> This may sound like a great place to learn, but this isn’t a university
> or school campus.
> 
> It’s a prison and this is how the Dutch teach its offenders to keep out
> of trouble.
> 
> It may sound like a soft touch but with talk of closing prisons, the
> Dutch believe they have a lesson to teach the world when it comes to
> rehabilitation.
> 
> While some countries struggle with overcrowding in prisons and crime,
> the Netherlands intends to close its jails.
> 
> In March, the Dutch government revealed it had too many empty cells and
> not enough prisoners to fill them.
> 
> It announced it was strongly considering closing five prisons, on top of
> the 19 they already shut down last year because the national crime rate
> continues to fall.
> 
> Justice Minister Ard van der Steur told parliament that not only were
> judges imposing shorter sentences but criminals were spending less time
> in jail.
> 
> He also claimed less serious crime was being reported according to The
> Telegraaf.
> 
> The Dienst Justitiële Inrichtingen (DJI) Custodial Institutions Agency,
> which carries out the sentences, reveals more than 13,000 detainees are
> held in the country’s prison system.
> 
> This cost the government an estimated 2 billion euro a year.
> 
> In an effort to reduce that cost, DIJ treat those undertaking prison
> sentences a little differently and focus on rehabilitation rather than
> punishment.
> 
> According to a video produced last year by DJI, the philosophy behind
> their work involves reversing criminal behaviour and therefore reducing
> the risk of reoffending.
> 
> 
> It may look like a university dorm, but this is how prisoners live in
> the Netherlands. Picture: Youtube/DJI Source:YouTube
> 
> This involves an intense program of education, skill sharing and
> undertaking courses which will better serve detainees once they are
> released.
> 
> Detainees also have access to an intensive support network once they are
> back in the community.
> 
> Juveniles undergo more intensive programs with counselling, education
> and parental support all crucial to ensuring as many of the 1600
> youngsters in detention remain trouble free.
> 
> The crime rate in the Netherlands has decreased by an average of 0.9 per
> cent in recent years, Sputnik News reported.
> 
> Just like the German system, the focus in the Netherlands is keeping
> inmates engaged. Some even have the option of spending weekends at home.
> 
> Dutch prisons are full of social workers, mental health professionals
> and lawyers.
> 
> A 2013 VIJ report revealed the emphasis is on “therapeutic culture” for
> enabling inmates to return successfully to society.
> 
> In Germany, prison workers receive two years training before being
> placed in the system in Germany compared to five weeks in the US state
> of Colorado,Next Cityreported.
> 
> In both Germany and the Netherlands less than one in 10 convicted
> criminal offenders are sent to prison compared to 70 per cent in the US.
> 
> AUSTRALIAN PERSPECTIVE
> 
> Managing senior lawyer Jimmy Singh told news.com.au he believed we had a
> lot to learn from the European approach.
> 
> Mr Singh, from Sydney Criminal Lawyers, said Australia had high
> recidivism rates and the focus was on locking up offenders rather than
> keeping them out of the system.
> 
> “NSW has some of the highest recidivism rates in Australia,” he said.
> 
> “In NSW 48 per cent of inmates returned to prison within two years.”
> 
> Mr Singh said he believed the Dutch and Swedes had it right when it came
> to focusing on rehabilitation as recidivism rates were among the lowest
> the world.
> 
> 
> These cells are not what most of us imagine prison to look like.
> Picture: Youtube/DJI Source:YouTube
> 
> “Dr Don Weatherburn from the Australian Bureau of Crime Statistics even
> said between 2015-16 there was a 12 per cent increase in the prison
> population,” he said.
> 
> “In Europe the emphasis is on diversion and rehabilitation, here it is
> on punishment. I think the Europeans have definitely got it right.
> 
> “The statistics speak for themselves.”
> 
> He said he believed our tough bail laws and the scrapping of diversion
> programs such as the Court Referral of Eligible Defendants Into
> Treatment (CREDIT) was partly to blame.
> 
> He said sending people to jail didn’t always work especially when a
> first-time offender was imprisoned with inmates serving time for much
> more serious offences and mental health issues were not addressed.
> 
> Writing on the Sydney Criminal lawyers blog, Lawyer and Principal Ugur
> Nedim said the Dutch model was so successful even Norway was sending
> some of its prisoners there to fill the cells.
> 
> He pointed to falling crime rates in nearby Sweden as further proof the
> European model worked in reducing crime and reoffending rates.
> 
> “Sweden’s prison numbers fell by about 1 per cent per year from 2004 to
> 2011,” he writes.
> 
> “Then, between 2011 and 2012, they declined by 6 per cent.”
> 
> He also highlighted a decision by the Swedish Supreme Court in 2011 to
> give more lenient sentences for drug offences.
> 
> Mr Nedim said this meant inmates spent less time behind bars but also
> made it easier for offenders to return to society.
> 
> Source:
> http://www.news.com.au/lifestyle/real-life/news-life/the-netherlands-to-close-more-prisons-heres-what-australia-could-learn/news-story/5788f56ffdba69555254d4276c262406






From guninski at guninski.com  Wed Aug 17 23:17:09 2016
From: guninski at guninski.com (Georgi Guninski)
Date: Thu, 18 Aug 2016 09:17:09 +0300
Subject: Equation Group - Cyber Weapons Auction
In-Reply-To: <CAD2Ti2-Te-E0_mD=dvurFrD5OSRshy7Apo5pFW=ST4euyQ2-cw@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAD2Ti2-Te-E0_mD=dvurFrD5OSRshy7Apo5pFW=ST4euyQ2-cw@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <20160818061709.GA1870@sivokote.iziade.m$>

On Thu, Aug 18, 2016 at 12:11:11AM -0400, grarpamp wrote:
> http://pastebin.com/NDTU5kJQ

The auction live on air:
https://blockchain.info/address/19BY2XCgbDe6WtTVbTyzM9eR3LYr6VitWK
So far a total of 1.723... bitcoins in 26 transactions.
Someone claimed that raising a million is extremely unrealistic, since
currently there are only about 16M bitcoins, a lot of them locked by
early adopters (the constants might be wrong).

This auction is similar to crowdfunding "fuck the NSA"
experiment.
Or even the cyber version of AP.
(Assuming it is not scam).





From zen at freedbms.net  Wed Aug 17 16:24:27 2016
From: zen at freedbms.net (Zenaan Harkness)
Date: Thu, 18 Aug 2016 09:24:27 +1000
Subject: Rising carbon dioxide is greening the Earth - but it's not all good
 news
Message-ID: <20160817232427.GA10672@x220-a02>

Thought someone posted a link like this back in the April thread - could
not find that, so posting here.

Increasing atmospheric carbon dioxide levels is a genuinely good thing.


CO2 is making Earth greener—for now
http://climate.nasa.gov/news/2436/co2-is-making-earth-greenerfor-now/

If you squint a bit and read a little too quickly, the caption on
the image reads "This image shows the change in leaf across the globe
from 1982-2015." which bodes really well for peace pipes around the
world.

And please, read carefully the last paragraph - even scientists know
their "scientific models" are flawed and always "being improved" (aka,
changing, since the previous iteration was wrong). At least some of them
acknowledge this fact.


CO2 fertilization greening the Earth
http://phys.org/news/2016-04-co2-fertilization-greening-earth.html

Global Warming Produced a Greener, More Fruitful Planet
http://www.cato.org/publications/commentary/global-warming-produced-greener-more-fruitful-planet

Rise in CO2 has 'greened Planet Earth'
http://www.bbc.com/news/science-environment-36130346

Rising carbon dioxide is greening the Earth - but it’s not all good news
http://theconversation.com/rising-carbon-dioxide-is-greening-the-earth-but-its-not-all-good-news-58282




From guninski at guninski.com  Wed Aug 17 23:42:53 2016
From: guninski at guninski.com (Georgi Guninski)
Date: Thu, 18 Aug 2016 09:42:53 +0300
Subject: Bitcoin Warns Of State Attack In Binaries
In-Reply-To: <CAD2Ti29we3hGOMxdYjsMu-P+C8=snrDTL2kam26TzvFVauyZxg@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAD2Ti29we3hGOMxdYjsMu-P+C8=snrDTL2kam26TzvFVauyZxg@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <20160818064253.GB1870@sivokote.iziade.m$>

On Thu, Aug 18, 2016 at 02:23:06AM -0400, grarpamp wrote:
> https://bitcoin.org/en/alert/2016-08-17-binary-safety
> Bitcoin.org has reason to suspect that the binaries for the upcoming
> Bitcoin Core release will likely be targeted by state sponsored
> attackers. As a website, Bitcoin.org does not have the necessary
> technical resources to guarantee that we can defend ourselves from
> attackers of this calibre. We ask the Bitcoin community, and in
> particular the Chinese Bitcoin community to be extra vigilant when
> downloading binaries from our website.
>

Is this a joke?

What is the difference between running backdoored bitcoin client and
backdoored porn viewer?

Not to mention malware and OSes backdoored by default (I suspect all
major OSes).

If the state can own their binaries, likely it can own a lot of other
binaries.
 




From guninski at guninski.com  Thu Aug 18 00:53:56 2016
From: guninski at guninski.com (Georgi Guninski)
Date: Thu, 18 Aug 2016 10:53:56 +0300
Subject: Equation Group - Cyber Weapons Auction
In-Reply-To: <20160818065209.GF10672@x220-a02>
References: <CAD2Ti2-Te-E0_mD=dvurFrD5OSRshy7Apo5pFW=ST4euyQ2-cw@mail.gmail.com>
 <20160818061709.GA1870@sivokote.iziade.m$>
 <20160818065209.GF10672@x220-a02>
Message-ID: <20160818075356.GC1870@sivokote.iziade.m$>

On Thu, Aug 18, 2016 at 04:52:09PM +1000, Zenaan Harkness wrote:
> On Thu, Aug 18, 2016 at 09:17:09AM +0300, Georgi Guninski wrote:
> > On Thu, Aug 18, 2016 at 12:11:11AM -0400, grarpamp wrote:
> > > http://pastebin.com/NDTU5kJQ
> > 
> > The auction live on air:
> > https://blockchain.info/address/19BY2XCgbDe6WtTVbTyzM9eR3LYr6VitWK
> :D
> 
> Either way, fun to watch :)

Much better than the Olympics ;)

The bitcoin addresses look somewhat weird to me.
IIRC they are formed from some crypto stuff of the user and the user
has _some_ control of it at least via bruteforce.
I suspect the user can't chose the address directly.

Here are the addresses in the last transactions, spaces added by me:

1 never 9kNNkr27UseZSHnaEHg1z8v3Mbb
1 gonna V3MFNjymS4RGvUbHACstiS8aSYz
1 give GEk184Gwep2KT4UBPTcE9oqWzCVR
1 you KBMLEohsexdZtkvnTzHnc4iU7Ffty
1 up AbpBEWQ467QNT7i4vBMVPzSfQ3sqoQ
1 never 9kNNkr27UseZSHnaEHg1z8v3Mbb
1 gonna V3MFNjymS4RGvUbHACstiS8aSYz
1 1et AyypstpXLQpTgoYmYzT8M2foBSBe1
1 you KBMLEohsexdZtkvnTzHnc4iU7Ffty
1 down AsBbRQcBfUj8rgQomqhRsNFf1jMo
...skip some...
1 nice C9Xz1rBLvwcphRUVU4GEfaVzvTwa

Reading downwards, this makes sense in English in _consecutive
transactions_ (except the last).

If the addresses were random, the probability of this happening
appears very low IMHO, what does math say?

Is this known bitcoin joke/weak steganography?




From guninski at guninski.com  Thu Aug 18 02:05:13 2016
From: guninski at guninski.com (Georgi Guninski)
Date: Thu, 18 Aug 2016 12:05:13 +0300
Subject: Equation Group - Cyber Weapons Auction
In-Reply-To: <CAD2Ti2-mh5ne0jS2vy3Gwnn57kdCy7LgvqyefMmdkoyRT-ZCoA@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAD2Ti2-Te-E0_mD=dvurFrD5OSRshy7Apo5pFW=ST4euyQ2-cw@mail.gmail.com>
 <20160818061709.GA1870@sivokote.iziade.m$>
 <20160818065209.GF10672@x220-a02>
 <20160818075356.GC1870@sivokote.iziade.m$>
 <CAD2Ti2-mh5ne0jS2vy3Gwnn57kdCy7LgvqyefMmdkoyRT-ZCoA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <20160818090513.GD1870@sivokote.iziade.m$>

On Thu, Aug 18, 2016 at 04:04:02AM -0400, grarpamp wrote:
> > Here are the addresses in the last transactions, spaces added by me:
> > Reading downwards, this makes sense in English
> 
> Lol, rickrolled. If they got free coin, why can't anybody ever
> rickroll me some .1337 coin too... dafuckwitdatshitbro?
> bitcoin:1CCdLCCGuWVTu1MU4g4MtbVMCnSUZJ46Gc

WTF, someone is singing to Shadow Brokers a verse from a song,
reading:
"Never gonna give you up, never gonna let you down"
Assuming "1et" is hexspeak for "let".

Would someone please confirm this?

Which bitcoin forum can answer how common such jokes are?

What do you mean by "rickrolled"?
There are no links except to addresses.

What cyber weapons do you trade for bitcoins? ;)

Seriously: IMHO you will reach much larger audience by running blog
and reposting your stuff there, possibly adding more.

Good luck with the bitcoins!




From guninski at guninski.com  Thu Aug 18 04:03:20 2016
From: guninski at guninski.com (Georgi Guninski)
Date: Thu, 18 Aug 2016 14:03:20 +0300
Subject: Equation Group - Cyber Weapons Auction
In-Reply-To: <0e90cf0b-9718-56cb-6639-eef6f95f5984@gmail.com>
References: <CAD2Ti2-Te-E0_mD=dvurFrD5OSRshy7Apo5pFW=ST4euyQ2-cw@mail.gmail.com>
 <20160818061709.GA1870@sivokote.iziade.m$>
 <20160818065209.GF10672@x220-a02>
 <20160818075356.GC1870@sivokote.iziade.m$>
 <0e90cf0b-9718-56cb-6639-eef6f95f5984@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <20160818110320.GF1870@sivokote.iziade.m$>

On Thu, Aug 18, 2016 at 03:53:04AM -0600, Deorge Chesterton wrote:
> Alright, who's the lurker from VICE
> 
> http://motherboard.vice.com/read/someone-rickrolled-the-bitcoin-auction-for-nsa-exploits
> 
> 

How did they found this?

Looks like their story is quite after the announcement in THIS thread?

Plagiarism? ;)

The story is at 05:20 AM EST 18 August 2016.

> 
> On 8/18/2016 01:53, Georgi Guninski wrote:
> > On Thu, Aug 18, 2016 at 04:52:09PM +1000, Zenaan Harkness wrote:
> >> On Thu, Aug 18, 2016 at 09:17:09AM +0300, Georgi Guninski wrote:
> >>> On Thu, Aug 18, 2016 at 12:11:11AM -0400, grarpamp wrote:
> >>>> http://pastebin.com/NDTU5kJQ
> >>> The auction live on air:
> >>> https://blockchain.info/address/19BY2XCgbDe6WtTVbTyzM9eR3LYr6VitWK
> >> :D
> >>
> >> Either way, fun to watch :)
> > Much better than the Olympics ;)
> >
> > The bitcoin addresses look somewhat weird to me.
> > IIRC they are formed from some crypto stuff of the user and the user
> > has _some_ control of it at least via bruteforce.
> > I suspect the user can't chose the address directly.
> >
> > Here are the addresses in the last transactions, spaces added by me:
> >
> > 1 never 9kNNkr27UseZSHnaEHg1z8v3Mbb
> > 1 gonna V3MFNjymS4RGvUbHACstiS8aSYz
> > 1 give GEk184Gwep2KT4UBPTcE9oqWzCVR
> > 1 you KBMLEohsexdZtkvnTzHnc4iU7Ffty
> > 1 up AbpBEWQ467QNT7i4vBMVPzSfQ3sqoQ
> > 1 never 9kNNkr27UseZSHnaEHg1z8v3Mbb
> > 1 gonna V3MFNjymS4RGvUbHACstiS8aSYz
> > 1 1et AyypstpXLQpTgoYmYzT8M2foBSBe1
> > 1 you KBMLEohsexdZtkvnTzHnc4iU7Ffty
> > 1 down AsBbRQcBfUj8rgQomqhRsNFf1jMo
> > ...skip some...
> > 1 nice C9Xz1rBLvwcphRUVU4GEfaVzvTwa
> >
> > Reading downwards, this makes sense in English in _consecutive
> > transactions_ (except the last).
> >
> > If the addresses were random, the probability of this happening
> > appears very low IMHO, what does math say?
> >
> > Is this known bitcoin joke/weak steganography?




From grarpamp at gmail.com  Thu Aug 18 12:34:22 2016
From: grarpamp at gmail.com (grarpamp)
Date: Thu, 18 Aug 2016 15:34:22 -0400
Subject: Equation Group - Cyber Weapons Auction
In-Reply-To: <20160818090513.GD1870@sivokote.iziade.m$>
References: <CAD2Ti2-Te-E0_mD=dvurFrD5OSRshy7Apo5pFW=ST4euyQ2-cw@mail.gmail.com>
 <20160818061709.GA1870@sivokote.iziade.m$> <20160818065209.GF10672@x220-a02>
 <20160818075356.GC1870@sivokote.iziade.m$>
 <CAD2Ti2-mh5ne0jS2vy3Gwnn57kdCy7LgvqyefMmdkoyRT-ZCoA@mail.gmail.com>
 <20160818090513.GD1870@sivokote.iziade.m$>
Message-ID: <CAD2Ti2-+2QNq2Q_cKGknb40Ms55HA+E=BCZVWXJ1N939oa_Eqg@mail.gmail.com>

On 8/18/16, Georgi Guninski <guninski at guninski.com> wrote:
> Assuming "1et" is hexspeak for "let".

No, it's base58check encoding.

Aintcha... never gonna give, never gonna give, give me coin...
bitcoin:1CCdLCCGuWVTu1MU4g4MtbVMCnSUZJ46Gc

Wa-oooo :)




From zen at freedbms.net  Wed Aug 17 23:51:08 2016
From: zen at freedbms.net (Zenaan Harkness)
Date: Thu, 18 Aug 2016 16:51:08 +1000
Subject: TOR Project: Still coming unwrapped
In-Reply-To: <c0f3b71b-43b4-7c55-6224-ceccd717e837@pilobilus.net>
References: <c0f3b71b-43b4-7c55-6224-ceccd717e837@pilobilus.net>
Message-ID: <20160818065108.GE10672@x220-a02>

On Thu, Aug 18, 2016 at 01:39:05AM -0400, Steve Kinney wrote:
> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
> Hash: SHA1
> 
> Holy F Society, the TOR Project just came unwrapped.  MORE.  This
> essay keeps getting more outrageous, without losing credibility, until
> it turns a corner that "network security" people could easily
> attribute to hostile tradecraft.
> 
> https://shiromarieke.github.io/tor

Juan, Juan, Juan! This is a firetrucking joke, that just keeps getting
worserer and worserer!!

Can we blame you Juan? "If you had not have been so public, so bold and
so relentless about the truth of the Tor Inc and retro-pistoning of the
USA gov TLAs via Tor, perhaps we would still be able to continue in
ignorance and this mess would have stayed behind closed doors?"

How could you Juan? How could you be so right? Speaking the -truth- is
what has destroyed this community, surely not the rear-end-reciprocation
of the Tor bots (god how depressing is that phrase now) ???

It's just not fair...<sheds a tear and sculls a glass of warm milk>




From zen at freedbms.net  Wed Aug 17 23:52:09 2016
From: zen at freedbms.net (Zenaan Harkness)
Date: Thu, 18 Aug 2016 16:52:09 +1000
Subject: Equation Group - Cyber Weapons Auction
In-Reply-To: <20160818061709.GA1870@sivokote.iziade.m$>
References: <CAD2Ti2-Te-E0_mD=dvurFrD5OSRshy7Apo5pFW=ST4euyQ2-cw@mail.gmail.com>
 <20160818061709.GA1870@sivokote.iziade.m$>
Message-ID: <20160818065209.GF10672@x220-a02>

On Thu, Aug 18, 2016 at 09:17:09AM +0300, Georgi Guninski wrote:
> On Thu, Aug 18, 2016 at 12:11:11AM -0400, grarpamp wrote:
> > http://pastebin.com/NDTU5kJQ
> 
> The auction live on air:
> https://blockchain.info/address/19BY2XCgbDe6WtTVbTyzM9eR3LYr6VitWK
> So far a total of 1.723... bitcoins in 26 transactions.
> Someone claimed that raising a million is extremely unrealistic, since
> currently there are only about 16M bitcoins, a lot of them locked by
> early adopters (the constants might be wrong).
> 
> This auction is similar to crowdfunding "fuck the NSA"
> experiment.
> Or even the cyber version of AP.
> (Assuming it is not scam).

:D

Either way, fun to watch :)




From zen at freedbms.net  Thu Aug 18 00:17:52 2016
From: zen at freedbms.net (Zenaan Harkness)
Date: Thu, 18 Aug 2016 17:17:52 +1000
Subject: TOR Project: Still coming unwrapped
In-Reply-To: <c0f3b71b-43b4-7c55-6224-ceccd717e837@pilobilus.net>
References: <c0f3b71b-43b4-7c55-6224-ceccd717e837@pilobilus.net>
Message-ID: <20160818071752.GG10672@x220-a02>

On Thu, Aug 18, 2016 at 01:39:05AM -0400, Steve Kinney wrote:
> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
> Hash: SHA1
> 
> Holy F Society, the TOR Project just came unwrapped.  MORE.  This
> essay keeps getting more outrageous, without losing credibility, until
> it turns a corner that "network security" people could easily
> attribute to hostile tradecraft.
> 
> https://shiromarieke.github.io/tor


"Tor is planning on having a "Community truth and reconciliation" moment
at the Seattle Meeting."
(Note: After expelling people without warning, unilaterally exercising
judge and jury power - by the accusers themselves, no genuine reach out
to "community" that the public can discern, and demonstrating plenty of
other ills and evils along the way (hypocrisy, lies, refusal to recant
lies, lack of display of any empathy, no genuine interest in any
potential "rape victims" of the alleged accused (Jacob Applebaum), etc,
etc.

Day by day, the picture becomes unmistakably clear:

Shari, Alison and Isis are evident sociopaths, feeding off the USA
government three letter agencies/ TLAs, in particular the CIA, and
abusing the community, abusing any righteous judicial or reconciliation
process, and doing all this entirely publicly.

Dingledine and Mathewson and any other behind the scenes "head honchos"
are evidently supporting the evident sociopathic behaviour.

Tor Inc has become, quite clearly, a microcosm of the behaviour of the
USA/ North Atlantic war machine system - sociopathicly feeding off the
rest of the world, which it abuses publicly and with impunity (at least
for now...)

The bunt hunt continues..




From zen at freedbms.net  Thu Aug 18 01:41:19 2016
From: zen at freedbms.net (Zenaan Harkness)
Date: Thu, 18 Aug 2016 18:41:19 +1000
Subject: Equation Group - Cyber Weapons Auction
In-Reply-To: <CAD2Ti2-mh5ne0jS2vy3Gwnn57kdCy7LgvqyefMmdkoyRT-ZCoA@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAD2Ti2-Te-E0_mD=dvurFrD5OSRshy7Apo5pFW=ST4euyQ2-cw@mail.gmail.com>
 <20160818061709.GA1870@sivokote.iziade.m$>
 <20160818065209.GF10672@x220-a02>
 <20160818075356.GC1870@sivokote.iziade.m$>
 <CAD2Ti2-mh5ne0jS2vy3Gwnn57kdCy7LgvqyefMmdkoyRT-ZCoA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <20160818084119.GH10672@x220-a02>

On Thu, Aug 18, 2016 at 04:04:02AM -0400, grarpamp wrote:
> On 8/18/16, Georgi Guninski <guninski at guninski.com> wrote:
> >> > The auction live on air:
> >> > https://blockchain.info/address/19BY2XCgbDe6WtTVbTyzM9eR3LYr6VitWK
> 
> > Much better than the Olympics ;)
> 
> Election year taking on a whole new world of meaning.
> Just think of what fun go down 4 years from now :)
> 
> > Here are the addresses in the last transactions, spaces added by me:
> > Reading downwards, this makes sense in English
> 
> Lol, rickrolled. If they got free coin, why can't anybody ever
> rickroll me some .1337 coin too... dafuckwitdatshitbro?
> bitcoin:1CCdLCCGuWVTu1MU4g4MtbVMCnSUZJ46Gc

Comedy gold! :D

"Dear NSA (yes alright, you too CIA, ya little pip sqshits!) (oh, ok you
too FBI, yeah and the DOD and the DIA, and the ... shit, what a mess the
USA is with so many competing "intelligence" agencies),
you are 0wned, 4nd some 0thers are ownded too, so y'all might like to
pay, as in pay up. And no, this is not blackmail, this is just business
- it's an auction see. At least, that's what we want y'all to believe
now since you can't handle the truth!
Sope! What we gunna do is suggest we bin paid a LOT of coin yo! Yo? Yo!
And just to let our true friends no this no joke yo (did I mention "yo"?)
we got some cool coin message yo!
"never gonna give you up, never gonna let you down"
That's code see, to our friends yo!"




From zen at freedbms.net  Thu Aug 18 01:48:31 2016
From: zen at freedbms.net (Zenaan Harkness)
Date: Thu, 18 Aug 2016 18:48:31 +1000
Subject: US election: both candidates are shit, system broken
In-Reply-To: <CAD2Ti2_o6OocUG7WZoB_6-fccbYZJsKMZZcv_3aBiP0Jku67rw@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAD2Ti2-7dPOk4bd3SDxQ6rJGMWGJh3pEvJrpesom4fOejreSRQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAD2Ti2_o6OocUG7WZoB_6-fccbYZJsKMZZcv_3aBiP0Jku67rw@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <20160818084831.GI10672@x220-a02>

On Thu, Aug 18, 2016 at 03:54:39AM -0400, grarpamp wrote:
> https://theintercept.com/2016/08/16/hillary-clinton-picks-tpp-and-fracking-advocate-to-set-up-her-white-house/
> 
> Clinton for TPP and Fracking in the White House.

Hitlery Clinton, environmental saviour!

Heil Hitlery CluckTonOfEvil, saving the small business owner!

Shitlery Clackery, warming our collective oligarchical hearts.

Hillary "fuck the EU" Clinton sends a "high five" to the EU middle class
and small business owners across the globe!

High4rseolery Clickbait "we came, we saw, he died"
Hillary Qaddafi killer Clinton wants peace and friendship between
peoples, sovereignty and mutual respect between nations, the will of the
people and the supreme sovereignty of the people to effectively rule in
dignity, gentle purpose and constructive and healing ends.

Or something..




From zen at freedbms.net  Thu Aug 18 02:48:52 2016
From: zen at freedbms.net (Zenaan Harkness)
Date: Thu, 18 Aug 2016 19:48:52 +1000
Subject: [JUSTICE] The Netherlands to =?utf-8?Q?clo?=
 =?utf-8?Q?se_more_prisons=3A_Here=E2=80=99s?= what Australia could learn.
Message-ID: <20160818094852.GJ10672@x220-a02>

An example worth highlighting, at least compared to the USA and
Australian "justice" systems.


----- Forwarded message from Jim <jim.sovereign at optusnet.com.au> -----

The Netherlands to close more prisons: Here’s what Australia could learn

news.com.au
Debra Killalea  
August 3, 2016



Dutch Prison System: How it works


THE days are filled playing sport, reading, and practising new skills.
There is learning, course work and open communication with support
networks is strongly encouraged.

This may sound like a great place to learn, but this isn’t a university
or school campus.

It’s a prison and this is how the Dutch teach its offenders to keep out
of trouble.

It may sound like a soft touch but with talk of closing prisons, the
Dutch believe they have a lesson to teach the world when it comes to
rehabilitation.

While some countries struggle with overcrowding in prisons and crime,
the Netherlands intends to close its jails.

In March, the Dutch government revealed it had too many empty cells and
not enough prisoners to fill them.

It announced it was strongly considering closing five prisons, on top of
the 19 they already shut down last year because the national crime rate
continues to fall.

Justice Minister Ard van der Steur told parliament that not only were
judges imposing shorter sentences but criminals were spending less time
in jail.

He also claimed less serious crime was being reported according to The
Telegraaf.

The Dienst Justitiële Inrichtingen (DJI) Custodial Institutions Agency,
which carries out the sentences, reveals more than 13,000 detainees are
held in the country’s prison system.

This cost the government an estimated 2 billion euro a year.

In an effort to reduce that cost, DIJ treat those undertaking prison
sentences a little differently and focus on rehabilitation rather than
punishment.

According to a video produced last year by DJI, the philosophy behind
their work involves reversing criminal behaviour and therefore reducing
the risk of reoffending.


It may look like a university dorm, but this is how prisoners live in
the Netherlands. Picture: Youtube/DJI Source:YouTube

This involves an intense program of education, skill sharing and
undertaking courses which will better serve detainees once they are
released.

Detainees also have access to an intensive support network once they are
back in the community.

Juveniles undergo more intensive programs with counselling, education
and parental support all crucial to ensuring as many of the 1600
youngsters in detention remain trouble free.

The crime rate in the Netherlands has decreased by an average of 0.9 per
cent in recent years, Sputnik News reported.

Just like the German system, the focus in the Netherlands is keeping
inmates engaged. Some even have the option of spending weekends at home.

Dutch prisons are full of social workers, mental health professionals
and lawyers.

A 2013 VIJ report revealed the emphasis is on “therapeutic culture” for
enabling inmates to return successfully to society.

In Germany, prison workers receive two years training before being
placed in the system in Germany compared to five weeks in the US state
of Colorado,Next Cityreported.

In both Germany and the Netherlands less than one in 10 convicted
criminal offenders are sent to prison compared to 70 per cent in the US.

AUSTRALIAN PERSPECTIVE

Managing senior lawyer Jimmy Singh told news.com.au he believed we had a
lot to learn from the European approach.

Mr Singh, from Sydney Criminal Lawyers, said Australia had high
recidivism rates and the focus was on locking up offenders rather than
keeping them out of the system.

“NSW has some of the highest recidivism rates in Australia,” he said.

“In NSW 48 per cent of inmates returned to prison within two years.”

Mr Singh said he believed the Dutch and Swedes had it right when it came
to focusing on rehabilitation as recidivism rates were among the lowest
the world.


These cells are not what most of us imagine prison to look like.
Picture: Youtube/DJI Source:YouTube

“Dr Don Weatherburn from the Australian Bureau of Crime Statistics even
said between 2015-16 there was a 12 per cent increase in the prison
population,” he said.

“In Europe the emphasis is on diversion and rehabilitation, here it is
on punishment. I think the Europeans have definitely got it right.

“The statistics speak for themselves.”

He said he believed our tough bail laws and the scrapping of diversion
programs such as the Court Referral of Eligible Defendants Into
Treatment (CREDIT) was partly to blame.

He said sending people to jail didn’t always work especially when a
first-time offender was imprisoned with inmates serving time for much
more serious offences and mental health issues were not addressed.

Writing on the Sydney Criminal lawyers blog, Lawyer and Principal Ugur
Nedim said the Dutch model was so successful even Norway was sending
some of its prisoners there to fill the cells.

He pointed to falling crime rates in nearby Sweden as further proof the
European model worked in reducing crime and reoffending rates.

“Sweden’s prison numbers fell by about 1 per cent per year from 2004 to
2011,” he writes.

“Then, between 2011 and 2012, they declined by 6 per cent.”

He also highlighted a decision by the Swedish Supreme Court in 2011 to
give more lenient sentences for drug offences.

Mr Nedim said this meant inmates spent less time behind bars but also
made it easier for offenders to return to society.

Source:
http://www.news.com.au/lifestyle/real-life/news-life/the-netherlands-to-close-more-prisons-heres-what-australia-could-learn/news-story/5788f56ffdba69555254d4276c262406




From grarpamp at gmail.com  Thu Aug 18 19:58:07 2016
From: grarpamp at gmail.com (grarpamp)
Date: Thu, 18 Aug 2016 22:58:07 -0400
Subject: Die Zeit interviews Appelbaum ioerror
In-Reply-To: <CAD2Ti28w2HpeA_d1tFaDy-fBSHc9jnCkFYe_LBYKTVrX-jx5Kw@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAD2Ti2-NXpt9293VJV95k+7Z0eh68j8iEJRjURJZgvgYQy4fYg@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAD2Ti28MN38-N2qty68dRmjGQ2yH3dVqSS0Uur+GvjusFT_QeA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAD2Ti28w2HpeA_d1tFaDy-fBSHc9jnCkFYe_LBYKTVrX-jx5Kw@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAD2Ti2-BZA=D3-w-2jf7X2NFok5p0Uy_dayZuv=wweVNfGPpHw@mail.gmail.com>

https://lists.torproject.org/pipermail/tor-project/2016-August/000669.html
stderr at riseup.net stderr at riseup.net
Thu Aug 18 19:53:00 UTC 2016
A Vote of No Confidence in Shari Steele: A Proposal For A Tor Relay
Operator Strike.

https://www.reddit.com/r/TOR/comments/4ydwhk/a_vote_of_no_confidence_in_shari_steele_a/


https://www.oneeyedman.net/?p=2589
Posted on August 18, 2016 by dwrob	
Tor Boycott Would Be Inappropriate


https://twitter.com/jmprcx/status/766324296625053696
I started a non-SJW fork of the #tor browser. Binaries coming soon!
https://github.com/joshuayabut/tor-browser-bundle




From juan.g71 at gmail.com  Thu Aug 18 20:30:26 2016
From: juan.g71 at gmail.com (juan)
Date: Fri, 19 Aug 2016 00:30:26 -0300
Subject: Die Zeit interviews Appelbaum ioerror
In-Reply-To: <CAD2Ti2-BZA=D3-w-2jf7X2NFok5p0Uy_dayZuv=wweVNfGPpHw@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAD2Ti2-NXpt9293VJV95k+7Z0eh68j8iEJRjURJZgvgYQy4fYg@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAD2Ti28MN38-N2qty68dRmjGQ2yH3dVqSS0Uur+GvjusFT_QeA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAD2Ti28w2HpeA_d1tFaDy-fBSHc9jnCkFYe_LBYKTVrX-jx5Kw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAD2Ti2-BZA=D3-w-2jf7X2NFok5p0Uy_dayZuv=wweVNfGPpHw@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <57b67c26.8b05370a.24bf0.f906@mx.google.com>

On Thu, 18 Aug 2016 22:58:07 -0400
grarpamp <grarpamp at gmail.com> wrote:


> 
> https://www.reddit.com/r/TOR/comments/4ydwhk/a_vote_of_no_confidence_in_shari_steele_a/



	submitted 8 hours ago by jrandomoperator

	[removed] 


	Removed. Shouldn't americunts just give up? 






From grarpamp at gmail.com  Fri Aug 19 02:02:11 2016
From: grarpamp at gmail.com (grarpamp)
Date: Fri, 19 Aug 2016 05:02:11 -0400
Subject: Die Zeit interviews Appelbaum ioerror
In-Reply-To: <20160819051549.GA13022@x220-a02>
References: <CAD2Ti2-NXpt9293VJV95k+7Z0eh68j8iEJRjURJZgvgYQy4fYg@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAD2Ti28MN38-N2qty68dRmjGQ2yH3dVqSS0Uur+GvjusFT_QeA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAD2Ti28w2HpeA_d1tFaDy-fBSHc9jnCkFYe_LBYKTVrX-jx5Kw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAD2Ti2-BZA=D3-w-2jf7X2NFok5p0Uy_dayZuv=wweVNfGPpHw@mail.gmail.com>
 <20160819051549.GA13022@x220-a02>
Message-ID: <CAD2Ti2-1+GdiAN1pPNPeQj2SR0NZLVQu7U_tazqTPZi7rYjqpA@mail.gmail.com>

On 8/19/16, Zenaan Harkness <zen at freedbms.net> wrote:
> I can hear it now

Rather than trying to predict and stuff others opinions,
it is suggested you go back to hearing the noise between
your ears. Here's a random seed to get you back on track...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=efJUusmQwR8




From rayzer at riseup.net  Fri Aug 19 07:35:53 2016
From: rayzer at riseup.net (Juan's Tor Sock Puppet)
Date: Fri, 19 Aug 2016 07:35:53 -0700
Subject: Die Zeit interviews Appelbaum ioerror
In-Reply-To: <20160819051549.GA13022@x220-a02>
References: <CAD2Ti2-NXpt9293VJV95k+7Z0eh68j8iEJRjURJZgvgYQy4fYg@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAD2Ti28MN38-N2qty68dRmjGQ2yH3dVqSS0Uur+GvjusFT_QeA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAD2Ti28w2HpeA_d1tFaDy-fBSHc9jnCkFYe_LBYKTVrX-jx5Kw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAD2Ti2-BZA=D3-w-2jf7X2NFok5p0Uy_dayZuv=wweVNfGPpHw@mail.gmail.com>
 <20160819051549.GA13022@x220-a02>
Message-ID: <1836d0e2-eb0b-22cb-812b-c4cdd830d01f@riseup.net>



On 08/18/2016 10:15 PM, Zenaan Harkness wrote:

> existing CIA funded "tor" network

Can you actually provide documentation the CIA funds the network itself
en toto as opposed to, lets say, operating entrance and exit nodes?

Rr


On 08/18/2016 10:15 PM, Zenaan Harkness wrote:
> On Thu, Aug 18, 2016 at 10:58:07PM -0400, grarpamp wrote:
>> https://lists.torproject.org/pipermail/tor-project/2016-August/000669.html
>> stderr at riseup.net stderr at riseup.net
>> Thu Aug 18 19:53:00 UTC 2016
>> A Vote of No Confidence in Shari Steele: A Proposal For A Tor Relay
>> Operator Strike.
>>
>> https://www.reddit.com/r/TOR/comments/4ydwhk/a_vote_of_no_confidence_in_shari_steele_a/
> 
> Great to see :D - well done whoever kicked that off.
> 
> 
>> "This is neither an endorsement of Jacob Appelbaum nor an endorsement of 
>> the accusations against him. At this point the Tor Project’s conduct is 
>> so reprehensible, that it doesn’t matter who is in the right — the 
>> leadership needs to go."
> 
> And how!
> 
> 
>> https://www.oneeyedman.net/?p=2589
>> Posted on August 18, 2016 by dwrob	
>> Tor Boycott Would Be Inappropriate
> 
> I can hear it now, "Vote 1 grarpamp, for Tor carnt leader"
> 
> 
>> https://twitter.com/jmprcx/status/766324296625053696
>> I started a non-SJW fork of the #tor browser. Binaries coming soon!
>> https://github.com/joshuayabut/tor-browser-bundle
> 
> Reproducible builds should be near the top of the list of course.
> 
> Perhaps a dicsussion on Tor Inc, it's funding, and alternatives is in
> order?
> 
> It's all very well to create a TBB fork, but it would still rely on the
> existing CIA funded "tor" network.
> 
> Perhaps seek grants from Russia's FSB, China's MSS, AND the USA's CIA?
> 
> "For a --balanced-- spy^Wfree speech network." perhaps? Gotta sell it
> somehow...
> 




From tor-talk-owner at lists.torproject.org  Fri Aug 19 01:05:06 2016
From: tor-talk-owner at lists.torproject.org (tor-talk-owner at lists.torproject.org)
Date: Fri, 19 Aug 2016 08:05:06 +0000
Subject: Your message to tor-talk awaits moderator approval
Message-ID: <mailman.4618.1575949205.62801.testlist@lists.cpunks.org>

Your mail to 'tor-talk' with the subject

    Re: [tor-talk] Revolt Against Tor Over Rape Claims, Process,
Board, Etc

Is being held until the list moderator can review it for approval.

The reason it is being held:

    Post to moderated list

Either the message will get posted to the list, or you will receive
notification of the moderator's decision.  If you would like to cancel
this posting, please visit the following URL:

    https://lists.torproject.org/cgi-bin/mailman/confirm/tor-talk/9f11153f5ef438d29e310d8831f6e61a164fe1a6


----- End forwarded message -----




From admin at pilobilus.net  Fri Aug 19 07:00:55 2016
From: admin at pilobilus.net (Steve Kinney)
Date: Fri, 19 Aug 2016 10:00:55 -0400
Subject: Rising carbon dioxide is greening the Earth - but it's not all
 good news
In-Reply-To: <fa43f65b-6464-f1d7-6f4e-31a804698986@riseup.net>
References: <20160817232427.GA10672@x220-a02>
 <745972E0-C19D-4DC9-A5C2-9ECA5847F2A1@synfin.org>
 <fa43f65b-6464-f1d7-6f4e-31a804698986@riseup.net>
Message-ID: <f383c868-8dd6-7e3e-06a8-894d7b7a09cc@pilobilus.net>

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1

On 08/17/2016 09:46 PM, Mirimir wrote:

> Arguing about anthropogenic climate forcing is just fucking
> useless. The latency is too great, and there are too many positive
> feedbacks. By the time that impacts are undeniable enough to
> motivate substantial reductions in CO2 emissions, it will be too
> late.

About the time follow up studies measured and confirmed annual summer
methane discharges from thawed out former Arctic permafrost (ancient
peat bogs, tidal flats etc.), climatologists stopped talking about
"stopping" much less reversing global warming.

So far I am not aware of any positive public statements from competent
actors to the effect that global warming is now self-driving
regardless of human activity.  I suspect there is a quiet consensus
that telling this particular truth would do more harm that good:  The
human contribution to global warming does continue to accelerate the
process and enlarge its "final" impact, so statements that could be
taken as excuses to just give up on reducing greenhouse gas emissions
would be counter-productive.

With or without global warming, the exponential growth of human
population and the industrial processes that drive this growth had to
end sometime.  That time is "real soon now."

:o/


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Version: GnuPG v2.0.22 (GNU/Linux)

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From rayzer at riseup.net  Fri Aug 19 10:04:08 2016
From: rayzer at riseup.net (Razer)
Date: Fri, 19 Aug 2016 10:04:08 -0700
Subject: "Smart" electrical outlets stealing passwords, 'helping the Russians'
 botnet the DNC
Message-ID: <c517b86f-878b-570c-7de0-56f9409abf3f@riseup.net>

ROTF! IMAGINE if the IoT didn't like Demoncrats!


"An anonymous reader writes from a report via Softpedia:

> There is an insecure IoT smart electrical socket on the market that leaks your Wi-Fi password, your email credentials (if configured), and is also poorly coded, allowing attackers to hijack the device via a simple command injection in the password field. Researchers say that because of the nature of the flaws, attackers can overwrite its firmware and add the device to a botnet, possibly using it for DDoS attacks, among other things. Bitdefender didn't reveal the device's manufacturer but said the vendor is working on a fix, which will be released in late Q3 2016. Problems with the device include a lack of encryption for device communications and the lack of any basic input sanitization for the password field


"Up until now most IoT vulnerabilities could be exploited only in the
proximity of the smart home they were serving, however, this flaw allows
hackers to control devices over the internet and bypass the limitations
of the network address translation," says Alexandru Balan, Chief
Security Researcher at Bitdefender. "This is a serious vulnerability, we
could see botnets made up of these power outlets."


Links etc:
https://news.slashdot.org/story/16/08/18/2231244/smart-electrical-socket-leaks-your-email-address-can-launch-ddos-attacks

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From guninski at guninski.com  Fri Aug 19 00:37:24 2016
From: guninski at guninski.com (Georgi Guninski)
Date: Fri, 19 Aug 2016 10:37:24 +0300
Subject: Equation Group - Cyber Weapons Auction
In-Reply-To: <0e90cf0b-9718-56cb-6639-eef6f95f5984@gmail.com>
References: <CAD2Ti2-Te-E0_mD=dvurFrD5OSRshy7Apo5pFW=ST4euyQ2-cw@mail.gmail.com>
 <20160818061709.GA1870@sivokote.iziade.m$>
 <20160818065209.GF10672@x220-a02>
 <20160818075356.GC1870@sivokote.iziade.m$>
 <0e90cf0b-9718-56cb-6639-eef6f95f5984@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <20160819073724.GA686@sivokote.iziade.m$>

On Thu, Aug 18, 2016 at 03:53:04AM -0600, Deorge Chesterton wrote:
> Alright, who's the lurker from VICE
> 
> http://motherboard.vice.com/read/someone-rickrolled-the-bitcoin-auction-for-nsa-exploits
>
There might be no VICE lurker here.

According to my google search, this first appeared on reddit, several
hours before here.

According to theregister, the free file contains CISCO SNMP 0day.




From afalex169 at gmail.com  Fri Aug 19 02:00:24 2016
From: afalex169 at gmail.com (=?UTF-8?B?0JDQu9C10LrRgdCw0L3QtNGA?=)
Date: Fri, 19 Aug 2016 12:00:24 +0300
Subject: [tor-talk] Revolt Against Tor Over Rape Claims, Process, Board,
 Etc
In-Reply-To: <20160819080452.GF13022@x220-a02>
References: <CAD2Ti29vFX019pRtiF11o8JGwMK7tpmQdHJ5Qu9hzDv_kzcpTA@mail.gmail.com>
 <0d1a3af7-b874-3ae8-56cd-055b75c4d46c@googlemail.com>
 <20160819080452.GF13022@x220-a02>
Message-ID: <CAEm6KbLF65kGc=2s4pNPK_K-md0BUcSk3zNzbMjr6wgE6-MEKA@mail.gmail.com>

Thank you very much for this Message, Zenaan.
You are the voice of Suzie Dawson (suzi3d.com/), mine and many other
good-hearted People.

It's time for Actions. It's time to REVOLT against this INtollerable Evil
and INjustice against Appelbaum... against ALL THE HIGHER PRINCIPLES! It's
time (and it was since the first day of this smear campaign) to EXPOSE all
the scumbags who created the slander against Jake AND those who silently
accepted it
->
AND KICK THEIR FUCKEN ASSES OUT OF THE COMMUNITY!

___

Time to grow up folks. Own the damn mess. Clean up your shit. Get rid of
> those individuals who are evidently compromised in ways that can not be
> tolerated.
>

!!!
__


and we get either banned from the public discussion (Juan, Alex (afalex169)
> and others), OR booted from the community and Tor Inc with disgrace (Jacob
> Applebaum).
>

!!!
__


Yes, you sure do... plenty of work to clean up this mess -
> continue to pretend it does not exist at your peril.
>

!!!
__


in Tor Inc as well as any other corporation and
> demoncratic governments around the world, sociopathic individuals
> predominate.
>

!!!
__

Tor Inc is not a "normal" company - none of you (employees of Tor Inc) are
> held by us in
> the Tor community as "normal" employees or "regular" folks - we have
> been, are, and shall continue to hold you to a higher standard than we
> hold "normal" capitalist 'pigs' to.
>
__

!!!

And take good notice - it is perhaps most often your non-actions, which
> demonstrate your tacit support for evils done, which have the greatest
> consequences in our consciousness.
>
> Meet our (!!) standard and you shall stand as heroes.
>

!!!
__

Fail to meet our standard and you and your purported principles shall
> forever be "the ones who fell from grace, disgraced themselves and
> disgraced the community, spitting on the very principles we all held to
> be sacred and inviolable".
>

!!!
__


Time to participate folks. Every one.
>

!!!
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From afalex169 at gmail.com  Fri Aug 19 02:14:55 2016
From: afalex169 at gmail.com (=?UTF-8?B?0JDQu9C10LrRgdCw0L3QtNGA?=)
Date: Fri, 19 Aug 2016 12:14:55 +0300
Subject: [tor-talk-owner@lists.torproject.org: Your message to tor-talk
 awaits moderator approval]
In-Reply-To: <20160819082818.GI13022@x220-a02>
References: <20160819082818.GI13022@x220-a02>
Message-ID: <CAEm6Kb+3aNYwEaqzV7n5mgdRL=YJfZZEB2hLgxMv46pPyDODpw@mail.gmail.com>

>
> Your mail to 'tor-talk' with the subject
>     Re: [tor-talk] Revolt Against Tor Over Rape Claims, Process,
> Board, Etc
> Is being held until the list moderator can review it for approval.
>
> Official "moderation".
> Well, let's see if any of my recent messages to tor-talk get through
>

Oh... you are so luuuucky, Zen.
Your message will be "moderated" and MAYBE will be published by fuckers
like griffin.
Mine?
"The email address you supplied is banned from this mailing list. If you
think this restriction is erroneous, please contact the list owners at
tor-talk-owner at lists.torproject.org"

This project IS ALREADY DEAD. I hope that Appelbaum & others will create
something really worthwhile.
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From zen at freedbms.net  Thu Aug 18 22:15:49 2016
From: zen at freedbms.net (Zenaan Harkness)
Date: Fri, 19 Aug 2016 15:15:49 +1000
Subject: Die Zeit interviews Appelbaum ioerror
In-Reply-To: <CAD2Ti2-BZA=D3-w-2jf7X2NFok5p0Uy_dayZuv=wweVNfGPpHw@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAD2Ti2-NXpt9293VJV95k+7Z0eh68j8iEJRjURJZgvgYQy4fYg@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAD2Ti28MN38-N2qty68dRmjGQ2yH3dVqSS0Uur+GvjusFT_QeA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAD2Ti28w2HpeA_d1tFaDy-fBSHc9jnCkFYe_LBYKTVrX-jx5Kw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAD2Ti2-BZA=D3-w-2jf7X2NFok5p0Uy_dayZuv=wweVNfGPpHw@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <20160819051549.GA13022@x220-a02>

On Thu, Aug 18, 2016 at 10:58:07PM -0400, grarpamp wrote:
> https://lists.torproject.org/pipermail/tor-project/2016-August/000669.html
> stderr at riseup.net stderr at riseup.net
> Thu Aug 18 19:53:00 UTC 2016
> A Vote of No Confidence in Shari Steele: A Proposal For A Tor Relay
> Operator Strike.
> 
> https://www.reddit.com/r/TOR/comments/4ydwhk/a_vote_of_no_confidence_in_shari_steele_a/

Great to see :D - well done whoever kicked that off.


> "This is neither an endorsement of Jacob Appelbaum nor an endorsement of 
> the accusations against him. At this point the Tor Project’s conduct is 
> so reprehensible, that it doesn’t matter who is in the right — the 
> leadership needs to go."

And how!


> https://www.oneeyedman.net/?p=2589
> Posted on August 18, 2016 by dwrob	
> Tor Boycott Would Be Inappropriate

I can hear it now, "Vote 1 grarpamp, for Tor carnt leader"


> https://twitter.com/jmprcx/status/766324296625053696
> I started a non-SJW fork of the #tor browser. Binaries coming soon!
> https://github.com/joshuayabut/tor-browser-bundle

Reproducible builds should be near the top of the list of course.

Perhaps a dicsussion on Tor Inc, it's funding, and alternatives is in
order?

It's all very well to create a TBB fork, but it would still rely on the
existing CIA funded "tor" network.

Perhaps seek grants from Russia's FSB, China's MSS, AND the USA's CIA?

"For a --balanced-- spy^Wfree speech network." perhaps? Gotta sell it
somehow...




From zen at freedbms.net  Thu Aug 18 22:17:17 2016
From: zen at freedbms.net (Zenaan Harkness)
Date: Fri, 19 Aug 2016 15:17:17 +1000
Subject: Die Zeit interviews Appelbaum ioerror
In-Reply-To: <57b67c26.8b05370a.24bf0.f906@mx.google.com>
References: <CAD2Ti2-NXpt9293VJV95k+7Z0eh68j8iEJRjURJZgvgYQy4fYg@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAD2Ti28MN38-N2qty68dRmjGQ2yH3dVqSS0Uur+GvjusFT_QeA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAD2Ti28w2HpeA_d1tFaDy-fBSHc9jnCkFYe_LBYKTVrX-jx5Kw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAD2Ti2-BZA=D3-w-2jf7X2NFok5p0Uy_dayZuv=wweVNfGPpHw@mail.gmail.com>
 <57b67c26.8b05370a.24bf0.f906@mx.google.com>
Message-ID: <20160819051717.GB13022@x220-a02>

On Fri, Aug 19, 2016 at 12:30:26AM -0300, juan wrote:
> On Thu, 18 Aug 2016 22:58:07 -0400
> grarpamp <grarpamp at gmail.com> wrote:
> 
> > https://www.reddit.com/r/TOR/comments/4ydwhk/a_vote_of_no_confidence_in_shari_steele_a/
> 
> 
> 	submitted 8 hours ago by jrandomoperator
> 
> 	[removed] 
> 
> 
> 	Removed. Shouldn't americunts just give up? 

:D

Gold.




From mirimir at riseup.net  Fri Aug 19 15:30:53 2016
From: mirimir at riseup.net (Mirimir)
Date: Fri, 19 Aug 2016 16:30:53 -0600
Subject: Rising carbon dioxide is greening the Earth - but it's not all
 good news
In-Reply-To: <f383c868-8dd6-7e3e-06a8-894d7b7a09cc@pilobilus.net>
References: <20160817232427.GA10672@x220-a02>
 <745972E0-C19D-4DC9-A5C2-9ECA5847F2A1@synfin.org>
 <fa43f65b-6464-f1d7-6f4e-31a804698986@riseup.net>
 <f383c868-8dd6-7e3e-06a8-894d7b7a09cc@pilobilus.net>
Message-ID: <c45040a6-df27-f9da-2981-ca6afc16e6ff@riseup.net>

On 08/19/2016 08:00 AM, Steve Kinney wrote:
> On 08/17/2016 09:46 PM, Mirimir wrote:
> 
>> Arguing about anthropogenic climate forcing is just fucking
>> useless. The latency is too great, and there are too many positive
>> feedbacks. By the time that impacts are undeniable enough to
>> motivate substantial reductions in CO2 emissions, it will be too
>> late.
> 
> About the time follow up studies measured and confirmed annual summer
> methane discharges from thawed out former Arctic permafrost (ancient
> peat bogs, tidal flats etc.), climatologists stopped talking about
> "stopping" much less reversing global warming.

Right, that will likely be a major factor. I'm betting that we'll see
regional forest burn-offs, as precipitation shifts away from the
equator. Amazon will become grasslands and desert. Africa too.

Migration will be a bitch. Maybe US and EU will nuke strategically to
prevent that. Maybe we'll finally see WWIII ;)

> So far I am not aware of any positive public statements from competent
> actors to the effect that global warming is now self-driving
> regardless of human activity.  I suspect there is a quiet consensus
> that telling this particular truth would do more harm that good:  The
> human contribution to global warming does continue to accelerate the
> process and enlarge its "final" impact, so statements that could be
> taken as excuses to just give up on reducing greenhouse gas emissions
> would be counter-productive.

Before too long, it won't matter ;)

> With or without global warming, the exponential growth of human
> population and the industrial processes that drive this growth had to
> end sometime.  That time is "real soon now."

Interesting times are coming, for sure ;)

> :o/
> 
> 
> 




From rayzer at riseup.net  Fri Aug 19 17:50:28 2016
From: rayzer at riseup.net (Razer)
Date: Fri, 19 Aug 2016 17:50:28 -0700
Subject: Die Zeit interviews Appelbaum ioerror
In-Reply-To: <20160820000401.GE5872@x220-a02>
References: <CAD2Ti2-NXpt9293VJV95k+7Z0eh68j8iEJRjURJZgvgYQy4fYg@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAD2Ti28MN38-N2qty68dRmjGQ2yH3dVqSS0Uur+GvjusFT_QeA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAD2Ti28w2HpeA_d1tFaDy-fBSHc9jnCkFYe_LBYKTVrX-jx5Kw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAD2Ti2-BZA=D3-w-2jf7X2NFok5p0Uy_dayZuv=wweVNfGPpHw@mail.gmail.com>
 <20160819051549.GA13022@x220-a02>
 <1836d0e2-eb0b-22cb-812b-c4cdd830d01f@riseup.net>
 <20160820000401.GE5872@x220-a02>
Message-ID: <56bfd876-33fa-6170-7bfa-55865b66ba04@riseup.net>



On 08/19/2016 05:04 PM, Zenaan Harkness wrote:
> On Fri, Aug 19, 2016 at 07:35:53AM -0700, Juan's Tor Sock Puppet wrote:
>>
>>
>> On 08/18/2016 10:15 PM, Zenaan Harkness wrote:
>>
>>> existing CIA funded "tor" network
>>
>> Can you actually provide documentation the CIA funds the network itself
>> en toto as opposed to, lets say, operating entrance and exit nodes?
>>
>> Rr
> 
> Kudos for your nick- belly laugh on that one :)
> 
> I think you're splitting hairs.
> 
> Whether it's the DOD or the CIA, some black budget line items, "third
> party" "arms length" (but CIA backed) financial contributors, or indeed
> perhaps that's why the lead Tor devs get $100K+ salaries - may be off
> the books, they're obliged to spend $30K of that on dir auths, exit
> nodes, whatever, or any combination of the above,
> 
> it's splitting hairs.
> 
> The primary funder on the books, from memory, is the DOD.
> 
> The primary beneficiary are the CIA crooks who run around the world
> attempting to overthrow governments around the world. They get to have a
> very fancy and very functional overlay "free speech" network to assist
> them with their dirty deeds.
> 
> Feel free to split hairs though - that only feeds the genuine concern.
> 


I just want to remind you the Vietnamese whupped us with WWII vintage
weapons, tiger traps, and pertinently ... sandals made from the tires of
stolen US Jeeps. Tor might be that Jeep.


A 'transparent and independently funded' fork of Tor seems to be
appropriate. To continue the 'war' analogy You don't throw away a weapon
just because it was made by the enemy but you DO check to see if it's
boobytrapped and neutralize it before use.

Rr

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From zen at freedbms.net  Fri Aug 19 00:54:10 2016
From: zen at freedbms.net (Zenaan Harkness)
Date: Fri, 19 Aug 2016 17:54:10 +1000
Subject: [tor-talk] Revolt Against Tor Over Rape Claims, Process, Board,
 Etc
In-Reply-To: <0d1a3af7-b874-3ae8-56cd-055b75c4d46c@googlemail.com>
References: <CAD2Ti29vFX019pRtiF11o8JGwMK7tpmQdHJ5Qu9hzDv_kzcpTA@mail.gmail.com>
 <0d1a3af7-b874-3ae8-56cd-055b75c4d46c@googlemail.com>
Message-ID: <20160819075410.GD13022@x220-a02>

On Thu, Aug 18, 2016 at 08:07:17PM +0200, Sebastian G. <bastik.tor> wrote:
> 18.08.2016, 07:28 grarpamp:
> > https://twitter.com/wikileaks/status/765933853143859200
> > 8:30 AM - 17 Aug 2016
> > Tor revolt over rape claims...
> 
> Why wikileaks?


0) The processes and actions done and upheld by those carrying seats
   of power in Tor Inc, with respect to Jacob Applebaum, are abhorrent.

   Justice has been denied to all involved.

   Serious problems have been caused to those who are genuine and or
   potentially genuine victims, and these problems continue to be
   perpetuated by those with authority in Tor Inc.

   Lies and deceptions have been ignored, outright denied, or otherwise
   perpetuated under the aegis of Tor Inc.

   Abhorrent behaviour has been ignored, upheld or indeed to a casual
   observer, have resulted in promotions of authority within Tor Inc.

   All these things are an absolute disgrace and those with authority in
   Tor Inc ought be fundamentally ashamed of the approach you have taken
   and continue to uphold:
      - implicitly,
      - tacitly,
      - and explicitly.



1) Tor is on topic for public consciousness around online privacy,
   anonymity, etc. and your question implies a fundamental missing of
   this fundamental point, and our fundamental needs in a democracy,
   and therefore the significance of that which is occurring at
   Tor Inc and within "the Tor community".

   The available options for those seeking a higher discourse are few
   and far between.

   The significance of the fundamental problems that are occurring as we
   speak, within Tor Inc and the Tor community, is deep, of deep
   concern, and is seen by far more than the mere few who take steps to
   highlight the wrongs and or to improve the situation.



2) Wikileaks is much harder to censor, unlike other recent publications
   e.g. the call for a 24 hour boycott of the Tor network was swiftly
   censored.

   There is an evident campaign to censor genuine and sincere, and
   needed actions and communications in regards to this whole affair.



3) Some of those with power in Tor Inc appear, to some of us in
   "the tor community" as being one or more of the following:

   -  fundamentally compromised ( e.g. lawyer, also "victim", also
      "investigator" - are you absofiretrucking serious??!!!??!! )

   -  covering for other compromised Tor Inc power brokers

   -  tacitly consenting to evidently compromised Tor Inc power
      brokers by ignoring, and or focussing on how to "massage" the
      "public message" so as to "minimize damage" (to what? to Tor Inc?
      What about damage to principles? damage to the community? damage
      to the dreams and intentions of hundreds of unspoken folks who
      gave their good intent, their hearts and often their time and
      money to contribute to the Tor network???)

   -  refusing to call a spade a spade

   -  evidently compromised due to covering for other Tor Inc power
      brokers who have demonstrated fundamental sociopathic and/ or
      highly objectionable actions, behaviour and words



4) Wikileaks has public mindshare and visibility.



5) Getting published on Wikileaks makes it much harder for those who
   want to appear clean-faced (Dingledine etc) to ignore the fundamental
   problems which have happened, are continuing to happen, and are, to
   the eye of this not so humble observer:
      - ethically objectionable,
      - compromised
      - and fundamentally problematic in oh so many ways!!!



Time to grow up folks. Own the damn mess. Clean up your shit. Get rid of
those individuals who are evidently compromised in ways that can not be
tolerated.


Fail to take these steps and you will forever lose your ability to claim
"we did our best" or "we didn't see what we were doing".


If you cannot see, and you refuse to see when the problems are pointed
out, you will have none but yourselves to blame. Many of us are doing
our best to point out fundamental problems, and we get either banned
from the public discussion (Juan, Afalex and others), booted from the
community or Tor Inc (Jacob Applebaum and implicitly quite a number of
others it has turned out - it's all coming out in the wash in that
grande olde thing called the Internet - you might have heard of that?)
or shouted at to "get off the cross, we got work to do".


Yes, you sure do... plenty of work to clean up this mess - continue to
pretend it does not exist at your peril.


By holding yourselves out as a "leading light" of free speech, dissodent
speech, genuine anonymity and or privacy whilst online, and also a
purportedly fundamentally ethical approach to the activities Tor Inc
purports to champion,

   -  you have been,
   -  are,
   -  and shall continue to be,

held to a high standard. This is not your option. Tor Inc is not a
"normal" company - none of you (employees of Tor Inc) are held by us in
the Tor community as "normal" employees or "regular" folks - we have
been, are, and shall continue to hold you to a higher standard than we
hold "normal" capitalist 'pigs' to.

That also means you suffer a far greater disgrace, and far more
publicly, than most other normal people ever would suffer.

And this is simply how it is - it is not something you have any control
over. It is we, the Tor community, who choose how to hold our so called
and purported (even though self elected) "leaders".


You have no choice in the standard we hold you to.


You have no choice in the consequences in our minds and in our hearts
when you fall from the grace we previously assumed you to be in.


You have absolutely no choice in the long term default consequences in
our respective consciousnesses, each of us individually, of how we hold
each and every one of you in the face of your words, your actions, and
your non-actions.


And take good notice - it is perhaps most often your non-actions, which
demonstrate your tacit support for evils done, which have the greatest
consequences in our consciousness.


Meet our (!!) standard and you shall stand as heroes.


Fail to meet our standard and you and your purported principles shall
forever be "the ones who fell from grace, disgraced themselves and
disgraced the community, spitting on the very principles we all held to
be sacred and inviolable".


   Your time is close to running out.


Your sincerely,
With absolute, unequivocal, and unshakable conviction,
Zenaan Harkness,
Victoria, Australia





From zen at freedbms.net  Fri Aug 19 01:04:52 2016
From: zen at freedbms.net (Zenaan Harkness)
Date: Fri, 19 Aug 2016 18:04:52 +1000
Subject: [tor-talk] Revolt Against Tor Over Rape Claims, Process, Board,
 Etc
In-Reply-To: <0d1a3af7-b874-3ae8-56cd-055b75c4d46c@googlemail.com>
References: <CAD2Ti29vFX019pRtiF11o8JGwMK7tpmQdHJ5Qu9hzDv_kzcpTA@mail.gmail.com>
 <0d1a3af7-b874-3ae8-56cd-055b75c4d46c@googlemail.com>
Message-ID: <20160819080452.GF13022@x220-a02>

On Thu, Aug 18, 2016 at 08:07:17PM +0200, Sebastian G. <bastik.tor> wrote:
> At first I didn't not think the intro would make any sense in regard to
> all this here, but maybe it does.

Aye.

> BTW, a revolt would make more noise, wouldn't it?

Sure, as long as you can get your call to arms past the censors.

The war is on folks - time to play hard.

The seats of power are usually claimed by those with desire for power,
rather than those with desire to live their lives in creativity,
humility and righteousness.

As a consequence, in Tor Inc as well as any other corporation and
demoncratic governments around the world, sociopathic individuals
predominate.

And we wonder why the world is "going to shit"?

Time to participate folks. Every one.

   Play your best moves.

   Do your best.

   Be your best.

May righteousness be in your heart,
Zenaan




From zen at freedbms.net  Fri Aug 19 01:28:18 2016
From: zen at freedbms.net (Zenaan Harkness)
Date: Fri, 19 Aug 2016 18:28:18 +1000
Subject: [tor-talk-owner@lists.torproject.org: Your message to tor-talk
 awaits moderator approval]
Message-ID: <20160819082818.GI13022@x220-a02>

Official "moderation".

Well, let's see if any of my recent messages to tor-talk get through :)

I guess they don't want to be seen to be banning folks from the list -
bit of a PR blowback perhaps?

We'll see...



----- Forwarded message from tor-talk-owner at lists.torproject.org -----


From juan.g71 at gmail.com  Fri Aug 19 18:52:04 2016
From: juan.g71 at gmail.com (juan)
Date: Fri, 19 Aug 2016 22:52:04 -0300
Subject: Die Zeit interviews Appelbaum ioerror
In-Reply-To: <56bfd876-33fa-6170-7bfa-55865b66ba04@riseup.net>
References: <CAD2Ti2-NXpt9293VJV95k+7Z0eh68j8iEJRjURJZgvgYQy4fYg@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAD2Ti28MN38-N2qty68dRmjGQ2yH3dVqSS0Uur+GvjusFT_QeA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAD2Ti28w2HpeA_d1tFaDy-fBSHc9jnCkFYe_LBYKTVrX-jx5Kw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAD2Ti2-BZA=D3-w-2jf7X2NFok5p0Uy_dayZuv=wweVNfGPpHw@mail.gmail.com>
 <20160819051549.GA13022@x220-a02>
 <1836d0e2-eb0b-22cb-812b-c4cdd830d01f@riseup.net>
 <20160820000401.GE5872@x220-a02>
 <56bfd876-33fa-6170-7bfa-55865b66ba04@riseup.net>
Message-ID: <57b7b690.cfcb370a.c9375.ec7e@mx.google.com>

On Fri, 19 Aug 2016 17:50:28 -0700
Razer <rayzer at riseup.net> wrote:

> 
> I just want to remind you the Vietnamese whupped us with WWII vintage
> weapons, tiger traps, and pertinently ... sandals made from the tires
> of stolen US Jeeps. Tor might be that Jeep.


	rayzer just keeps going - vomiting propaganda. 



> 
> 
> A 'transparent and independently funded' fork of Tor seems to be
> appropriate. To continue the 'war' analogy You don't throw away a
> weapon just because it was made by the enemy but you DO check to see
> if it's boobytrapped and neutralize it before use.
> 
> Rr
> 





From mirimir at riseup.net  Fri Aug 19 23:40:43 2016
From: mirimir at riseup.net (Mirimir)
Date: Sat, 20 Aug 2016 00:40:43 -0600
Subject: Tor being forked.
In-Reply-To: <CAEm6Kb+ZYvxQBHUpqhT-PHgtTp9zVqZ2BLhW3Q2LHsR_rvX0rA@mail.gmail.com>
References: <KP_ZJvi--3-0@tuta.io>
 <CAEm6Kb+ZYvxQBHUpqhT-PHgtTp9zVqZ2BLhW3Q2LHsR_rvX0rA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <0621b67d-3bf5-6071-ce70-f7020c1f7455@riseup.net>

On 08/20/2016 12:04 AM, Александр wrote:
> Great news.
> 
> For those who have suggested it there's already plans and a roadmap for the
>> fork of Tor. Two concurrent networks which are compatible with a singular
>> browser would greatly diversify the ecosystem and give users more choice.
>> At this point this is the only way forward imo. More info:
>> https://rotorbrowser.com

I don't see the point. As Juan so likes to remind us, Tor design is
fundamentally flawed, in that it's vulnerable to global adversaries.
Which, in practice, means US military. So how would a fork not be
vulnerable as well? Instead, why not develop something better?





From mirimir at riseup.net  Sat Aug 20 00:27:17 2016
From: mirimir at riseup.net (Mirimir)
Date: Sat, 20 Aug 2016 01:27:17 -0600
Subject: Tor being forked.
In-Reply-To: <20160820070507.GB831@sivokote.iziade.m$>
References: <KP_ZJvi--3-0@tuta.io>
 <CAEm6Kb+ZYvxQBHUpqhT-PHgtTp9zVqZ2BLhW3Q2LHsR_rvX0rA@mail.gmail.com>
 <0621b67d-3bf5-6071-ce70-f7020c1f7455@riseup.net>
 <20160820070507.GB831@sivokote.iziade.m$>
Message-ID: <6d940c1d-eae6-33a0-c041-146e952a8798@riseup.net>

On 08/20/2016 01:05 AM, Georgi Guninski wrote:
> On Sat, Aug 20, 2016 at 12:40:43AM -0600, Mirimir wrote:
>> I don't see the point. As Juan so likes to remind us, Tor design is
>> fundamentally flawed, in that it's vulnerable to global adversaries.
>> Which, in practice, means US military. So how would a fork not be
>> vulnerable as well? Instead, why not develop something better?
> 
> Agreed. As I read it, this is not Tor fork, just the browser, right?

| Short Term: Achieve technical parity with regard to security and
| features to predecessor codebases through rapid inclusion of
| upstream commits.
| Short Term: Add functionality to allow browser users to select
| chosen network traversal method (Tor vs Independent Onion Routing).
| Short Term: Begin Independent Onion Router network infrastructure
| deployment.

Right. I was referring to "Independent Onion Router network".




From xxyyzz at tuta.io  Fri Aug 19 18:29:41 2016
From: xxyyzz at tuta.io (xxyyzz at tuta.io)
Date: Sat, 20 Aug 2016 02:29:41 +0100 (BST)
Subject: Tor being forked.
Message-ID: <KP_ZJvi--3-0@tuta.io>

For those who have suggested it there's already plans and a roadmap for the fork of Tor. Two concurrent networks which are compatible with a singular browser would greatly diversify the ecosystem and give users more choice. 
At this point this is the only way forward imo. More info: https://rotorbrowser.com
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From grarpamp at gmail.com  Sat Aug 20 03:23:12 2016
From: grarpamp at gmail.com (grarpamp)
Date: Sat, 20 Aug 2016 06:23:12 -0400
Subject: Revolt Against Tor Over Rape Claims, Process, Board, Etc
In-Reply-To: <CAD2Ti29vFX019pRtiF11o8JGwMK7tpmQdHJ5Qu9hzDv_kzcpTA@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAD2Ti29vFX019pRtiF11o8JGwMK7tpmQdHJ5Qu9hzDv_kzcpTA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAD2Ti2_hv1j0+Y5jDK-8TpE8o6azYYK8mmALqwdaty08xroF1A@mail.gmail.com>

https://lists.torproject.org/pipermail/tor-talk/2016-August/042032.html
Fri Aug 19 11:34:54 UTC 2016
thread
Shutting down my tor relay
Stephan Seitz <stse+tor at fsing.rootsland.net>
The situation how the affair about Jake was handled by the Tor project
has made me feel very uneasy.
After digging through several material (for example
https://shiromarieke.github.io/tor) I find that I am no longer
believing in this project or trust it.
That’s why I’m shutting down my tor relay fsingtor now.
As long as the project stays that way it is I will no longer recommend
Tor or support it in any ways. And I don’t think that such a project
should have any future.





From oshwm at openmailbox.org  Fri Aug 19 23:41:42 2016
From: oshwm at openmailbox.org (oshwm)
Date: Sat, 20 Aug 2016 07:41:42 +0100
Subject: Tor being forked.
In-Reply-To: <CAEm6Kb+ZYvxQBHUpqhT-PHgtTp9zVqZ2BLhW3Q2LHsR_rvX0rA@mail.gmail.com>
References: <KP_ZJvi--3-0@tuta.io>
 <CAEm6Kb+ZYvxQBHUpqhT-PHgtTp9zVqZ2BLhW3Q2LHsR_rvX0rA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <79900deb-8ff3-6e97-2eb7-39d9b09abc4a@openmailbox.org>

Without being able to offer my time, my comments don't carry much
weight, but it would be great if it natively supported i2p as well :)

I can configure TBB to support i2p (there are instructions out there for
everyone) but it would give i2p greater exposure and people an obvious
choice if i2p was supported without any configuration work.


On 20/08/16 07:04, Александр wrote:
> Great news.
>
>     For those who have suggested it there's already plans and a
>     roadmap for the fork of Tor. Two concurrent networks which are
>     compatible with a singular browser would greatly diversify the
>     ecosystem and give users more choice. 
>     At this point this is the only way forward imo. More
>     info: https://rotorbrowser.com <https://rotorbrowser.com/>
>
>


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From jnn at synfin.org  Sat Aug 20 04:43:56 2016
From: jnn at synfin.org (John)
Date: Sat, 20 Aug 2016 07:43:56 -0400
Subject: Revolt Against Tor Over Rape Claims, Process, Board, Etc
In-Reply-To: <CAD2Ti2_hv1j0+Y5jDK-8TpE8o6azYYK8mmALqwdaty08xroF1A@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAD2Ti29vFX019pRtiF11o8JGwMK7tpmQdHJ5Qu9hzDv_kzcpTA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAD2Ti2_hv1j0+Y5jDK-8TpE8o6azYYK8mmALqwdaty08xroF1A@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <0CCAFBF5-DAEE-4E31-982E-EB898BC87055@synfin.org>

I ran a relay off and on for a long while on a freebsd server, as I've mentioned... i never considered it a big deal, but I've shut it down.

I may start it up every now and then for a few hours if I'm playing with something on the box in question and want to fuck with something using torsocks or something similar.

John

On August 20, 2016 6:23:12 AM EDT, grarpamp <grarpamp at gmail.com> wrote:
>https://lists.torproject.org/pipermail/tor-talk/2016-August/042032.html
>Fri Aug 19 11:34:54 UTC 2016
>thread
>Shutting down my tor relay
>Stephan Seitz <stse+tor at fsing.rootsland.net>
>The situation how the affair about Jake was handled by the Tor project
>has made me feel very uneasy.
>After digging through several material (for example
>https://shiromarieke.github.io/tor) I find that I am no longer
>believing in this project or trust it.
>That’s why I’m shutting down my tor relay fsingtor now.
>As long as the project stays that way it is I will no longer recommend
>Tor or support it in any ways. And I don’t think that such a project
>should have any future.

-- 
Sent from my Android device with K-9 Mail. Please excuse my brevity.
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From rayzer at riseup.net  Sat Aug 20 07:54:39 2016
From: rayzer at riseup.net (Razer)
Date: Sat, 20 Aug 2016 07:54:39 -0700
Subject: Revolt Against Tor Over Rape Claims, Process, Board, Etc
In-Reply-To: <20160820110222.GC831@sivokote.iziade.m$>
References: <CAD2Ti29vFX019pRtiF11o8JGwMK7tpmQdHJ5Qu9hzDv_kzcpTA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAD2Ti2_hv1j0+Y5jDK-8TpE8o6azYYK8mmALqwdaty08xroF1A@mail.gmail.com>
 <20160820110222.GC831@sivokote.iziade.m$>
Message-ID: <c8aed56c-1109-3abc-c3c9-e6cbb2e14d37@riseup.net>



On 08/20/2016 04:02 AM, Georgi Guninski wrote:
> On Sat, Aug 20, 2016 at 06:23:12AM -0400, grarpamp wrote:
>> https://lists.torproject.org/pipermail/tor-talk/2016-August/042032.html
>> Fri Aug 19 11:34:54 UTC 2016
>> thread
>> Shutting down my tor relay
>> Stephan Seitz <stse+tor at fsing.rootsland.net>
> 
> Did Tor decide to piss off and disconnect the honest relay operators (or
> as much of them as possible) while keeping the luser cattle?
> 
> AFAIK the onion anonymity highly depends on the honesty of the relays in
> the "circuit" (or whatever they call it, never mind).
> 
> This way all relays will be spooks', while now only most of them are.
> 


Kind of what it looks like. I was busi]y watching the 'culture clash'
between 'the suits', and what I affectionately call the 'bone in the
nose and earlobe hole' crowd. That's part of the process. Ejecting or
forcing out the alts and 'outlaws'.

Rr




From oshwm at openmailbox.org  Sat Aug 20 00:06:40 2016
From: oshwm at openmailbox.org (oshwm)
Date: Sat, 20 Aug 2016 08:06:40 +0100
Subject: Tor being forked.
In-Reply-To: <0621b67d-3bf5-6071-ce70-f7020c1f7455@riseup.net>
References: <KP_ZJvi--3-0@tuta.io>
 <CAEm6Kb+ZYvxQBHUpqhT-PHgtTp9zVqZ2BLhW3Q2LHsR_rvX0rA@mail.gmail.com>
 <0621b67d-3bf5-6071-ce70-f7020c1f7455@riseup.net>
Message-ID: <8030d7cc-226c-101e-22dc-33ad9fd55e5d@openmailbox.org>

As a first relatively easy step towards a generic browser supporting
multiple mixnets this might not be a bad start.

It wrestles control of TBB from TorCorp and with additional protocols
would remove the dependancy on the compromised Tor exit nodes, possibly
even use some sort of 'least cost routing' style of algorithm to spread
traffic across the fastest or most secure network depending on user
preference and based on destination.

Maybe add an element of randomness to mixnet choice as well to make
traffic analysis more difficult :)

Longer term goals should be development of a secure browser from the
ground up, not basing it on any Mozilla/Apple/Google code - and having
it audited.



On 20/08/16 07:40, Mirimir wrote:
> On 08/20/2016 12:04 AM, Александр wrote:
>> Great news.
>>
>> For those who have suggested it there's already plans and a roadmap for the
>>> fork of Tor. Two concurrent networks which are compatible with a singular
>>> browser would greatly diversify the ecosystem and give users more choice.
>>> At this point this is the only way forward imo. More info:
>>> https://rotorbrowser.com
> I don't see the point. As Juan so likes to remind us, Tor design is
> fundamentally flawed, in that it's vulnerable to global adversaries.
> Which, in practice, means US military. So how would a fork not be
> vulnerable as well? Instead, why not develop something better?
>


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From afalex169 at gmail.com  Fri Aug 19 23:04:34 2016
From: afalex169 at gmail.com (=?UTF-8?B?0JDQu9C10LrRgdCw0L3QtNGA?=)
Date: Sat, 20 Aug 2016 09:04:34 +0300
Subject: Tor being forked.
In-Reply-To: <KP_ZJvi--3-0@tuta.io>
References: <KP_ZJvi--3-0@tuta.io>
Message-ID: <CAEm6Kb+ZYvxQBHUpqhT-PHgtTp9zVqZ2BLhW3Q2LHsR_rvX0rA@mail.gmail.com>

Great news.

For those who have suggested it there's already plans and a roadmap for the
> fork of Tor. Two concurrent networks which are compatible with a singular
> browser would greatly diversify the ecosystem and give users more choice.
> At this point this is the only way forward imo. More info:
> https://rotorbrowser.com
>
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From everythingisscience at mail2tor.com  Sat Aug 20 02:29:38 2016
From: everythingisscience at mail2tor.com (everythingisscience)
Date: Sat, 20 Aug 2016 09:29:38 -0000
Subject: Global warming/climate change
Message-ID: <5f5520a6a8ff1f90d50d07b62e3faac2.squirrel@_>

> Tom:
> not [cpunks]

Cryptography isn't limited to computers.

> not scientists

Science isn't limited to approved funding and certification.





From zen at freedbms.net  Fri Aug 19 16:33:10 2016
From: zen at freedbms.net (Zenaan Harkness)
Date: Sat, 20 Aug 2016 09:33:10 +1000
Subject: [tor-talk-owner@lists.torproject.org: Your message to tor-talk
 awaits moderator approval]
In-Reply-To: <85ECFE65-B713-461F-82DB-EA37BACE6949@synfin.org>
References: <20160819082818.GI13022@x220-a02>
 <85ECFE65-B713-461F-82DB-EA37BACE6949@synfin.org>
Message-ID: <20160819233310.GB5872@x220-a02>

On Fri, Aug 19, 2016 at 11:21:57AM -0400, John wrote:
> >https://lists.torproject.org/cgi-bin/mailman/confirm/tor-talk/9f11153f5ef438d29e310d8831f6e61a164fe1a6
> 
> This whole thing is hilarious... (And depressing!!)
> 
> I wouldn't send the actual private mailman link to the whole list tho... Any lurker can now cancel your post. 

Well, either someone cancelled it, or it got cancelled by the
moderators.

Either way, it's a sign of the state of the "community".

My other two emails (there were three next to each other) got cancelled/
banned as well and as far as I am concerned they were more benign, so
evidently what I have to say is no longer welcome to be said on the
tor-talk mailing list.




From guninski at guninski.com  Sat Aug 20 00:00:31 2016
From: guninski at guninski.com (Georgi Guninski)
Date: Sat, 20 Aug 2016 10:00:31 +0300
Subject: Equation Group - Cyber Weapons Auction
In-Reply-To: <CAD2Ti2-mh5ne0jS2vy3Gwnn57kdCy7LgvqyefMmdkoyRT-ZCoA@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAD2Ti2-Te-E0_mD=dvurFrD5OSRshy7Apo5pFW=ST4euyQ2-cw@mail.gmail.com>
 <20160818061709.GA1870@sivokote.iziade.m$>
 <20160818065209.GF10672@x220-a02>
 <20160818075356.GC1870@sivokote.iziade.m$>
 <CAD2Ti2-mh5ne0jS2vy3Gwnn57kdCy7LgvqyefMmdkoyRT-ZCoA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <20160820070031.GA831@sivokote.iziade.m$>

On Thu, Aug 18, 2016 at 04:04:02AM -0400, grarpamp wrote:
> > Here are the addresses in the last transactions, spaces added by me:
> > Reading downwards, this makes sense in English
> 
> Lol, rickrolled. If they got free coin, why can't anybody ever

Is the series of 0.0010101 transactions in less than a minute similar
joke?




From zen at freedbms.net  Fri Aug 19 17:04:01 2016
From: zen at freedbms.net (Zenaan Harkness)
Date: Sat, 20 Aug 2016 10:04:01 +1000
Subject: Die Zeit interviews Appelbaum ioerror
In-Reply-To: <1836d0e2-eb0b-22cb-812b-c4cdd830d01f@riseup.net>
References: <CAD2Ti2-NXpt9293VJV95k+7Z0eh68j8iEJRjURJZgvgYQy4fYg@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAD2Ti28MN38-N2qty68dRmjGQ2yH3dVqSS0Uur+GvjusFT_QeA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAD2Ti28w2HpeA_d1tFaDy-fBSHc9jnCkFYe_LBYKTVrX-jx5Kw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAD2Ti2-BZA=D3-w-2jf7X2NFok5p0Uy_dayZuv=wweVNfGPpHw@mail.gmail.com>
 <20160819051549.GA13022@x220-a02>
 <1836d0e2-eb0b-22cb-812b-c4cdd830d01f@riseup.net>
Message-ID: <20160820000401.GE5872@x220-a02>

On Fri, Aug 19, 2016 at 07:35:53AM -0700, Juan's Tor Sock Puppet wrote:
> 
> 
> On 08/18/2016 10:15 PM, Zenaan Harkness wrote:
> 
> > existing CIA funded "tor" network
> 
> Can you actually provide documentation the CIA funds the network itself
> en toto as opposed to, lets say, operating entrance and exit nodes?
> 
> Rr

Kudos for your nick- belly laugh on that one :)

I think you're splitting hairs.

Whether it's the DOD or the CIA, some black budget line items, "third
party" "arms length" (but CIA backed) financial contributors, or indeed
perhaps that's why the lead Tor devs get $100K+ salaries - may be off
the books, they're obliged to spend $30K of that on dir auths, exit
nodes, whatever, or any combination of the above,

it's splitting hairs.

The primary funder on the books, from memory, is the DOD.

The primary beneficiary are the CIA crooks who run around the world
attempting to overthrow governments around the world. They get to have a
very fancy and very functional overlay "free speech" network to assist
them with their dirty deeds.

Feel free to split hairs though - that only feeds the genuine concern.




From guninski at guninski.com  Sat Aug 20 00:05:07 2016
From: guninski at guninski.com (Georgi Guninski)
Date: Sat, 20 Aug 2016 10:05:07 +0300
Subject: Tor being forked.
In-Reply-To: <0621b67d-3bf5-6071-ce70-f7020c1f7455@riseup.net>
References: <KP_ZJvi--3-0@tuta.io>
 <CAEm6Kb+ZYvxQBHUpqhT-PHgtTp9zVqZ2BLhW3Q2LHsR_rvX0rA@mail.gmail.com>
 <0621b67d-3bf5-6071-ce70-f7020c1f7455@riseup.net>
Message-ID: <20160820070507.GB831@sivokote.iziade.m$>

On Sat, Aug 20, 2016 at 12:40:43AM -0600, Mirimir wrote:
> I don't see the point. As Juan so likes to remind us, Tor design is
> fundamentally flawed, in that it's vulnerable to global adversaries.
> Which, in practice, means US military. So how would a fork not be
> vulnerable as well? Instead, why not develop something better?

Agreed. As I read it, this is not Tor fork, just the browser, right?





From afalex169 at gmail.com  Sat Aug 20 00:45:08 2016
From: afalex169 at gmail.com (=?UTF-8?B?0JDQu9C10LrRgdCw0L3QtNGA?=)
Date: Sat, 20 Aug 2016 10:45:08 +0300
Subject: Tor being forked.
In-Reply-To: <0621b67d-3bf5-6071-ce70-f7020c1f7455@riseup.net>
References: <KP_ZJvi--3-0@tuta.io>
 <CAEm6Kb+ZYvxQBHUpqhT-PHgtTp9zVqZ2BLhW3Q2LHsR_rvX0rA@mail.gmail.com>
 <0621b67d-3bf5-6071-ce70-f7020c1f7455@riseup.net>
Message-ID: <CAEm6Kb+SqHc_T2jTvjezD1H_XktVy-TSoF_wk2geVwJRrOn04g@mail.gmail.com>

>
> mirimir at riseup.net:
> I don't see the point. As Juan so likes to remind us, Tor design is
> fundamentally flawed, in that it's vulnerable to global adversaries.
> Which, in practice, means US military. So how would a fork not be
> vulnerable as well? Instead, why not develop something better?
>

Absolutely right, Mirmir.
BUT despite it
i am happy forks are emerging only because of the fact, that it is
weakening the original Tor and it's feminazi-slanderers leaders. If there
are forks, also they are not the "only ones" holding/producing Tor
binaries.

Yes, of course, a totally alternative system will be the best (and for
killing the original flawed tor and for a true anonymity tool), BUT as far
as i can see, there are no real alternatives yet. That's why i'm happy, at
least, by the fact of the forks. It's a form of rebel against Tor and its
pseudo leaders.
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From afalex169 at gmail.com  Sat Aug 20 00:48:24 2016
From: afalex169 at gmail.com (=?UTF-8?B?0JDQu9C10LrRgdCw0L3QtNGA?=)
Date: Sat, 20 Aug 2016 10:48:24 +0300
Subject: Tor being forked.
In-Reply-To: <8030d7cc-226c-101e-22dc-33ad9fd55e5d@openmailbox.org>
References: <KP_ZJvi--3-0@tuta.io>
 <CAEm6Kb+ZYvxQBHUpqhT-PHgtTp9zVqZ2BLhW3Q2LHsR_rvX0rA@mail.gmail.com>
 <0621b67d-3bf5-6071-ce70-f7020c1f7455@riseup.net>
 <8030d7cc-226c-101e-22dc-33ad9fd55e5d@openmailbox.org>
Message-ID: <CAEm6KbJRo7D3dS4trLdUR7=G3yQR9Mh5a3Bc-3FiTZFeRaDCuQ@mail.gmail.com>

2016-08-20 10:06 GMT+03:00 oshwm <oshwm at openmailbox.org>:

> It wrestles control of TBB from TorCorp


Exactly. At least this fact alone - is better than the state of things
right now.
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From zen at freedbms.net  Fri Aug 19 18:39:16 2016
From: zen at freedbms.net (Zenaan Harkness)
Date: Sat, 20 Aug 2016 11:39:16 +1000
Subject: Die Zeit interviews Appelbaum ioerror
In-Reply-To: <56bfd876-33fa-6170-7bfa-55865b66ba04@riseup.net>
References: <CAD2Ti2-NXpt9293VJV95k+7Z0eh68j8iEJRjURJZgvgYQy4fYg@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAD2Ti28MN38-N2qty68dRmjGQ2yH3dVqSS0Uur+GvjusFT_QeA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAD2Ti28w2HpeA_d1tFaDy-fBSHc9jnCkFYe_LBYKTVrX-jx5Kw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAD2Ti2-BZA=D3-w-2jf7X2NFok5p0Uy_dayZuv=wweVNfGPpHw@mail.gmail.com>
 <20160819051549.GA13022@x220-a02>
 <1836d0e2-eb0b-22cb-812b-c4cdd830d01f@riseup.net>
 <20160820000401.GE5872@x220-a02>
 <56bfd876-33fa-6170-7bfa-55865b66ba04@riseup.net>
Message-ID: <20160820013916.GF5872@x220-a02>

On Fri, Aug 19, 2016 at 05:50:28PM -0700, Razer wrote:
> I just want to remind you the Vietnamese whupped us with WWII vintage
> weapons, tiger traps, and pertinently ... sandals made from the tires of
> stolen US Jeeps. Tor might be that Jeep.
> 
> 
> A 'transparent and independently funded' fork of Tor seems to be
> appropriate. To continue the 'war' analogy You don't throw away a weapon
> just because it was made by the enemy but you DO check to see if it's
> boobytrapped and neutralize it before use.

That's a great analogy.

I agree with you.




From zen at freedbms.net  Fri Aug 19 19:02:18 2016
From: zen at freedbms.net (Zenaan Harkness)
Date: Sat, 20 Aug 2016 12:02:18 +1000
Subject: Die Zeit interviews Appelbaum ioerror
In-Reply-To: <57b7b690.cfcb370a.c9375.ec7e@mx.google.com>
References: <CAD2Ti2-NXpt9293VJV95k+7Z0eh68j8iEJRjURJZgvgYQy4fYg@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAD2Ti28MN38-N2qty68dRmjGQ2yH3dVqSS0Uur+GvjusFT_QeA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAD2Ti28w2HpeA_d1tFaDy-fBSHc9jnCkFYe_LBYKTVrX-jx5Kw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAD2Ti2-BZA=D3-w-2jf7X2NFok5p0Uy_dayZuv=wweVNfGPpHw@mail.gmail.com>
 <20160819051549.GA13022@x220-a02>
 <1836d0e2-eb0b-22cb-812b-c4cdd830d01f@riseup.net>
 <20160820000401.GE5872@x220-a02>
 <56bfd876-33fa-6170-7bfa-55865b66ba04@riseup.net>
 <57b7b690.cfcb370a.c9375.ec7e@mx.google.com>
Message-ID: <20160820020218.GH5872@x220-a02>

On Fri, Aug 19, 2016 at 10:52:04PM -0300, juan wrote:
> On Fri, 19 Aug 2016 17:50:28 -0700
> Razer <rayzer at riseup.net> wrote:
> > I just want to remind you the Vietnamese whupped us with WWII vintage
> > weapons, tiger traps, and pertinently ... sandals made from the tires
> > of stolen US Jeeps. Tor might be that Jeep.
> 
> 	rayzer just keeps going - vomiting propaganda. 

It does come across as "we were the victim", but perhaps was intended as
"here and there, amidst the veritable national crucifixion we (USA)
dished out, those plucky Vietnamese managed to deliver the occasional
successful counter punch, even using scraps from the battlefield (the
bastards), for which we will forever remind them and the world and
anyone who will listen and paint it as Vietnamese military aggression
against the weak US victims".

So yes, propaganda :/




From guninski at guninski.com  Sat Aug 20 04:02:22 2016
From: guninski at guninski.com (Georgi Guninski)
Date: Sat, 20 Aug 2016 14:02:22 +0300
Subject: Revolt Against Tor Over Rape Claims, Process, Board, Etc
In-Reply-To: <CAD2Ti2_hv1j0+Y5jDK-8TpE8o6azYYK8mmALqwdaty08xroF1A@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAD2Ti29vFX019pRtiF11o8JGwMK7tpmQdHJ5Qu9hzDv_kzcpTA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAD2Ti2_hv1j0+Y5jDK-8TpE8o6azYYK8mmALqwdaty08xroF1A@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <20160820110222.GC831@sivokote.iziade.m$>

On Sat, Aug 20, 2016 at 06:23:12AM -0400, grarpamp wrote:
> https://lists.torproject.org/pipermail/tor-talk/2016-August/042032.html
> Fri Aug 19 11:34:54 UTC 2016
> thread
> Shutting down my tor relay
> Stephan Seitz <stse+tor at fsing.rootsland.net>

Did Tor decide to piss off and disconnect the honest relay operators (or
as much of them as possible) while keeping the luser cattle?

AFAIK the onion anonymity highly depends on the honesty of the relays in
the "circuit" (or whatever they call it, never mind).

This way all relays will be spooks', while now only most of them are.




From carimachet at gmail.com  Sat Aug 20 04:12:25 2016
From: carimachet at gmail.com (Cari Machet)
Date: Sat, 20 Aug 2016 14:12:25 +0300
Subject: Tor being forked.
In-Reply-To: <0621b67d-3bf5-6071-ce70-f7020c1f7455@riseup.net>
References: <KP_ZJvi--3-0@tuta.io>
 <CAEm6Kb+ZYvxQBHUpqhT-PHgtTp9zVqZ2BLhW3Q2LHsR_rvX0rA@mail.gmail.com>
 <0621b67d-3bf5-6071-ce70-f7020c1f7455@riseup.net>
Message-ID: <CAGRDzQXvzLS-ACru=+ft00Mf1vEU=ojC-du9MxO54qNEG2fNSw@mail.gmail.com>

why not develop ????????????????????????????

tor is perfect we have reached the pennacle of everything on the planet so
why would anything need development anywhere /..... all sectors are solid
perfection ... no need for any human to even move a pinky finger

a main stance for tor has long been to function just at the level to keep
development from being too needed so the people would not move beyond it

On Sat, Aug 20, 2016 at 9:40 AM, Mirimir <mirimir at riseup.net> wrote:

> On 08/20/2016 12:04 AM, Александр wrote:
> > Great news.
> >
> > For those who have suggested it there's already plans and a roadmap for
> the
> >> fork of Tor. Two concurrent networks which are compatible with a
> singular
> >> browser would greatly diversify the ecosystem and give users more
> choice.
> >> At this point this is the only way forward imo. More info:
> >> https://rotorbrowser.com
>
> I don't see the point. As Juan so likes to remind us, Tor design is
> fundamentally flawed, in that it's vulnerable to global adversaries.
> Which, in practice, means US military. So how would a fork not be
> vulnerable as well? Instead, why not develop something better?
>
>


-- 
Cari Machet
NYC 646-436-7795
carimachet at gmail.com
AIM carismachet
Syria +963-099 277 3243
Amman +962 077 636 9407
Berlin +49 152 11779219
Reykjavik +354 894 8650
Twitter: @carimachet <https://twitter.com/carimachet>

7035 690E 5E47 41D4 B0E5 B3D1 AF90 49D6 BE09 2187

Ruh-roh, this is now necessary: This email is intended only for the
addressee(s) and may contain confidential information. If you are not the
intended recipient, you are hereby notified that any use of this
information, dissemination, distribution, or copying of this email without
permission is strictly prohibited.
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From carimachet at gmail.com  Sat Aug 20 04:36:43 2016
From: carimachet at gmail.com (Cari Machet)
Date: Sat, 20 Aug 2016 14:36:43 +0300
Subject: Tor being forked.
In-Reply-To: <8030d7cc-226c-101e-22dc-33ad9fd55e5d@openmailbox.org>
References: <KP_ZJvi--3-0@tuta.io>
 <CAEm6Kb+ZYvxQBHUpqhT-PHgtTp9zVqZ2BLhW3Q2LHsR_rvX0rA@mail.gmail.com>
 <0621b67d-3bf5-6071-ce70-f7020c1f7455@riseup.net>
 <8030d7cc-226c-101e-22dc-33ad9fd55e5d@openmailbox.org>
Message-ID: <CAGRDzQUz8BMCxmaB19EvASYVZS6XJePJbxcRP2UrW2bxv9smoA@mail.gmail.com>

On Sat, Aug 20, 2016 at 10:06 AM, oshwm <oshwm at openmailbox.org> wrote:

> As a first relatively easy step towards a generic browser supporting
> multiple mixnets this might not be a bad start.
>
> It wrestles control of TBB from TorCorp and with additional protocols
> would remove the dependancy on the compromised Tor exit nodes, possibly
> even use some sort of 'least cost routing' style of algorithm to spread
> traffic across the fastest or most secure network depending on user
> preference and based on destination.
>
> Maybe add an element of randomness to mixnet choice as well to make
> traffic analysis more difficult :)
>

beautiful


>
> Longer term goals should be development of a secure browser from the
> ground up, not basing it on any Mozilla/Apple/Google code - and having
> it audited.
>
>
>
> On 20/08/16 07:40, Mirimir wrote:
> > On 08/20/2016 12:04 AM, Александр wrote:
> >> Great news.
> >>
> >> For those who have suggested it there's already plans and a roadmap for
> the
> >>> fork of Tor. Two concurrent networks which are compatible with a
> singular
> >>> browser would greatly diversify the ecosystem and give users more
> choice.
> >>> At this point this is the only way forward imo. More info:
> >>> https://rotorbrowser.com
> > I don't see the point. As Juan so likes to remind us, Tor design is
> > fundamentally flawed, in that it's vulnerable to global adversaries.
> > Which, in practice, means US military. So how would a fork not be
> > vulnerable as well? Instead, why not develop something better?
> >
>
>
>


-- 
Cari Machet
NYC 646-436-7795
carimachet at gmail.com
AIM carismachet
Syria +963-099 277 3243
Amman +962 077 636 9407
Berlin +49 152 11779219
Reykjavik +354 894 8650
Twitter: @carimachet <https://twitter.com/carimachet>

7035 690E 5E47 41D4 B0E5 B3D1 AF90 49D6 BE09 2187

Ruh-roh, this is now necessary: This email is intended only for the
addressee(s) and may contain confidential information. If you are not the
intended recipient, you are hereby notified that any use of this
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From rsw at jfet.org  Sat Aug 20 15:51:23 2016
From: rsw at jfet.org (Riad S. Wahby)
Date: Sat, 20 Aug 2016 15:51:23 -0700
Subject: moving on
Message-ID: <20160820225123.2zpubfgn3z7chbc3@positron.jfet.org>

Folks,

After 15+ years running a cypherpunks node, it's quitting time for me.
I plan to delete the mailman aliases on September 30th.

If anyone is interested in migrating the list to his or her machine
before then, that would be great; let's discuss on-list.

-=rsw



From mirimir at riseup.net  Sat Aug 20 15:09:35 2016
From: mirimir at riseup.net (Mirimir)
Date: Sat, 20 Aug 2016 16:09:35 -0600
Subject: Revolt Against Tor Over Rape Claims, Process, Board, Etc
In-Reply-To: <c8aed56c-1109-3abc-c3c9-e6cbb2e14d37@riseup.net>
References: <CAD2Ti29vFX019pRtiF11o8JGwMK7tpmQdHJ5Qu9hzDv_kzcpTA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAD2Ti2_hv1j0+Y5jDK-8TpE8o6azYYK8mmALqwdaty08xroF1A@mail.gmail.com>
 <20160820110222.GC831@sivokote.iziade.m$>
 <c8aed56c-1109-3abc-c3c9-e6cbb2e14d37@riseup.net>
Message-ID: <fe45b8cb-6940-f602-5cf3-90bce44e04ce@riseup.net>

On 08/20/2016 08:54 AM, Razer wrote:
> 
> 
> On 08/20/2016 04:02 AM, Georgi Guninski wrote:
>> On Sat, Aug 20, 2016 at 06:23:12AM -0400, grarpamp wrote:
>>> https://lists.torproject.org/pipermail/tor-talk/2016-August/042032.html
>>> Fri Aug 19 11:34:54 UTC 2016
>>> thread
>>> Shutting down my tor relay
>>> Stephan Seitz <stse+tor at fsing.rootsland.net>
>>
>> Did Tor decide to piss off and disconnect the honest relay operators (or
>> as much of them as possible) while keeping the luser cattle?
>>
>> AFAIK the onion anonymity highly depends on the honesty of the relays in
>> the "circuit" (or whatever they call it, never mind).
>>
>> This way all relays will be spooks', while now only most of them are.
>>
> 
> 
> Kind of what it looks like. I was busi]y watching the 'culture clash'
> between 'the suits', and what I affectionately call the 'bone in the
> nose and earlobe hole' crowd. That's part of the process. Ejecting or
> forcing out the alts and 'outlaws'.

So you think that Andrea will eventually get lynched?





From grarpamp at gmail.com  Sat Aug 20 14:57:53 2016
From: grarpamp at gmail.com (grarpamp)
Date: Sat, 20 Aug 2016 17:57:53 -0400
Subject: Revolt Against Tor Over Rape Claims, Process, Board, Etc
In-Reply-To: <CAD2Ti2_hv1j0+Y5jDK-8TpE8o6azYYK8mmALqwdaty08xroF1A@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAD2Ti29vFX019pRtiF11o8JGwMK7tpmQdHJ5Qu9hzDv_kzcpTA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAD2Ti2_hv1j0+Y5jDK-8TpE8o6azYYK8mmALqwdaty08xroF1A@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAD2Ti29ganzAWPT0W4jPAf-OjhwExS2vm+Nug_+U-aj7rja=aQ@mail.gmail.com>

#torstrike calls for global sit in on September 1
https://ghostbin.com/paste/kmnzz

Tor General Strike #torstrike
Please join our 24-hour Tor blackout on Thursday, September 1st 2016.
Use your local time or UTC+02:00.
Tor Users:
...
Tor Workers:
...
Get The Word Out:
...
Rationale:
Tor can no longer be trusted after #jakegate / #torgate and hire of
CIA. Its sinking credibility is putting people at risk. We hope it can
be healed and regain trust with mass action.
Demands:
Restoring Trust re: 2016 Misconduct -
...
Restoring Trust re: Infiltration -
...




From zen at freedbms.net  Sat Aug 20 01:05:50 2016
From: zen at freedbms.net (Zenaan Harkness)
Date: Sat, 20 Aug 2016 18:05:50 +1000
Subject: Tor being forked.
In-Reply-To: <20160820070507.GB831@sivokote.iziade.m$>
References: <KP_ZJvi--3-0@tuta.io>
 <CAEm6Kb+ZYvxQBHUpqhT-PHgtTp9zVqZ2BLhW3Q2LHsR_rvX0rA@mail.gmail.com>
 <0621b67d-3bf5-6071-ce70-f7020c1f7455@riseup.net>
 <20160820070507.GB831@sivokote.iziade.m$>
Message-ID: <20160820080550.GE24992@x220-a02>

On Sat, Aug 20, 2016 at 10:05:07AM +0300, Georgi Guninski wrote:
> On Sat, Aug 20, 2016 at 12:40:43AM -0600, Mirimir wrote:
> > I don't see the point. As Juan so likes to remind us, Tor design is
> > fundamentally flawed, in that it's vulnerable to global adversaries.
> > Which, in practice, means US military. So how would a fork not be
> > vulnerable as well? Instead, why not develop something better?
> 
> Agreed. As I read it, this is not Tor fork, just the browser, right?

Hey it's development - gotta start somewhere :)

Those who want to start from a clean slate - go for it! The more options
the better..




From grarpamp at gmail.com  Sat Aug 20 16:29:42 2016
From: grarpamp at gmail.com (grarpamp)
Date: Sat, 20 Aug 2016 19:29:42 -0400
Subject: moving on
In-Reply-To: <20160820225123.2zpubfgn3z7chbc3@positron.jfet.org>
References: <20160820225123.2zpubfgn3z7chbc3@positron.jfet.org>
Message-ID: <CAD2Ti294L3Yzv+93BeXJ9cmBU5oJVZR7heUzww57Q7n-W70Q+Q@mail.gmail.com>

On 8/20/16, Riad S. Wahby <rsw at jfet.org> wrote:
> After 15+ years running a cypherpunks node

rsw +1 ftw.

> it's quitting time for me.

Please publish an archive of all the posts you still have.
xz, gz, tarball, mbox, maildir... whatever.
from, to, cc, date, subject, msgid, in-reply-to, references.
Or more simply and completely... raw.
Then gpg signed.
Thanks.




From zen at freedbms.net  Sat Aug 20 15:10:54 2016
From: zen at freedbms.net (Zenaan Harkness)
Date: Sun, 21 Aug 2016 08:10:54 +1000
Subject: Revolt Against Tor Over Rape Claims, Process, Board, Etc
In-Reply-To: <20160820110222.GC831@sivokote.iziade.m$>
References: <CAD2Ti29vFX019pRtiF11o8JGwMK7tpmQdHJ5Qu9hzDv_kzcpTA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAD2Ti2_hv1j0+Y5jDK-8TpE8o6azYYK8mmALqwdaty08xroF1A@mail.gmail.com>
 <20160820110222.GC831@sivokote.iziade.m$>
Message-ID: <20160820221054.GA5044@x220-a02>

On Sat, Aug 20, 2016 at 02:02:22PM +0300, Georgi Guninski wrote:
> On Sat, Aug 20, 2016 at 06:23:12AM -0400, grarpamp wrote:
> > https://lists.torproject.org/pipermail/tor-talk/2016-August/042032.html
> > Fri Aug 19 11:34:54 UTC 2016
> > thread
> > Shutting down my tor relay
> > Stephan Seitz <stse+tor at fsing.rootsland.net>
> 
> Did Tor decide to piss off and disconnect the honest relay operators (or

The principled ones.

In leaked chats etc, they (Tor Inc honchos) keep focussing on "how to
protect the image" and "can we employ this CIA guy without creating a
problem for our reputation".

It reaks of "we don't give a damn about the principles wee proclaim on
our website, 

Now when volunteers say "enough's enough, I cannot trust you guys, I
thought I could, I'm stopping running my relay", they are getting
blasted - slapped in the face with their own conscience e.g. "how could
you! You are choosing to put peoples lives at risk!" - check it out,
"moral/ emotional blackmail" for want of a term, perhaps "conscience
blackmail" - that only works when the listener is weak, but they keep
trying it on anyway.

That's what sociopath's do - try very hard to hold us to our higher
standard, while they race around fucking everyone over, hoping we don't
see the trick they are using. We go through angst, heartache and
distress over the fallout, the wrongs, the failures, while they try to
abuse us with this very conscience that causes us our pain.

It is evil what they try to do.

Even my gentle reply ("you're slapping a --volunteer-- in the face") has
been censored!

Just check that photo of Shari (-ah law) Steele - she's one tough and
angry looking human, and not in a good way - free of empathy, tons of
ambition and a very harsh approach from what we are seeing. The failures
and outright offensive sequencesing of events surrounding her "Tor
Social Contract" speak very loudly.

Juan was right.


> as much of them as possible) while keeping the luser cattle?
> 
> AFAIK the onion anonymity highly depends on the honesty of the relays in
> the "circuit" (or whatever they call it, never mind).
> 
> This way all relays will be spooks', while now only most of them are.

Indeed.