From grarpamp at gmail.com  Thu Oct  1 00:55:27 2015
From: grarpamp at gmail.com (grarpamp)
Date: Thu, 1 Oct 2015 03:55:27 -0400
Subject: Snowden on the Twitters
In-Reply-To: <20150930115346.GD2618@sivokote.iziade.m$>
References: <CAD2Ti2-ZiZDAR_mLFAQqcgLVyyvrv2o2Kx3ri+jBK3o7aUF6QA@mail.gmail.com>
 <20150930062542.GA2618@sivokote.iziade.m$>
 <CD8AB160-F010-43C7-8A05-091C48DE043D@openmailbox.org>
 <20150930115346.GD2618@sivokote.iziade.m$>
Message-ID: <CAD2Ti298nyvA6d76XJ0XYNZzSEZ4S-a3cpd2C7gi=5tjWuukzg@mail.gmail.com>

On Wed, Sep 30, 2015 at 7:53 AM, Georgi Guninski <guninski at guninski.com> wrote:
> How do you survive large scale DDOS?

Coordinate while waiting it out. Use anycast.

What most people call dDoS is not a denial but really their silly
IDS screen pointing out fhe fact that they've merely plugged their
box into the net. These are the same idiots that OMG SSH SCAN!
A REAL DoS fills your pipe to capacity+1.
A FUN DoS fills your provider's pipes to capacity+1,
bonus if more upstream or peering get sunk therein.
Partly why CF have free / cheap tiers because it's not
real DoS there, so CF isn't paying to absorb any, nor
is their peers kicking them for attracting nothing.
On the other hand, CF does absorb legit DoS too.

That's in addition to aiding and abetting ISIL terrists
while avoiding heat from US Govt friendlies, breaking
what would be computer crime tapping laws with MitM,
and pissing off innocent VPN/Proxy service/Tor users.

http://docs.house.gov/meetings/FA/FA18/20150127/102855/HHRG-114-FA18-Wstate-KohlmannE-20150127.pdf




From grarpamp at gmail.com  Thu Oct  1 01:08:32 2015
From: grarpamp at gmail.com (grarpamp)
Date: Thu, 1 Oct 2015 04:08:32 -0400
Subject: Snowden on the Twitters
In-Reply-To: <20151001053452.GA2752@sivokote.iziade.m$>
References: <CAD2Ti2-ZiZDAR_mLFAQqcgLVyyvrv2o2Kx3ri+jBK3o7aUF6QA@mail.gmail.com>
 <20150930062542.GA2618@sivokote.iziade.m$>
 <CD8AB160-F010-43C7-8A05-091C48DE043D@openmailbox.org>
 <20150930115346.GD2618@sivokote.iziade.m$> <560C3A26.4010709@openmailbox.org>
 <20151001053452.GA2752@sivokote.iziade.m$>
Message-ID: <CAD2Ti29NCMUY_u8St34fR6dW4FSodJk=Qo6dg8s5uB4khr0i6w@mail.gmail.com>

On Thu, Oct 1, 2015 at 1:34 AM, Georgi Guninski <guninski at guninski.com> wrote:
> On Wed, Sep 30, 2015 at 08:38:14PM +0100, oshwm wrote:
>>
>> Snowden is a moderate extremist, he doesn't want transparent government
>> and private individuals, he just wants a discussion on where to draw the
>> line with surveillance, his leaks are purely to further this aim.
>> Assange and the people who have worked with him on leaks are more the
>> kind of people we need.

> The claim about Snowden is quite strong, what is a reference for this?

Snowden both picks his words and draws his lines carefully.
Constant use of 'discussion' and redaction.




From grarpamp at gmail.com  Thu Oct  1 01:23:51 2015
From: grarpamp at gmail.com (grarpamp)
Date: Thu, 1 Oct 2015 04:23:51 -0400
Subject: Snowden on the Twitters
In-Reply-To: <20151001080545.GC2752@sivokote.iziade.m$>
References: <CAD2Ti2-ZiZDAR_mLFAQqcgLVyyvrv2o2Kx3ri+jBK3o7aUF6QA@mail.gmail.com>
 <20150930062542.GA2618@sivokote.iziade.m$>
 <CD8AB160-F010-43C7-8A05-091C48DE043D@openmailbox.org>
 <20150930115346.GD2618@sivokote.iziade.m$> <560C3A26.4010709@openmailbox.org>
 <20151001053452.GA2752@sivokote.iziade.m$> <560CD686.8010501@openmailbox.org>
 <560ce15f.0212370a.97fe1.ffffa6e2@mx.google.com>
 <20151001080545.GC2752@sivokote.iziade.m$>
Message-ID: <CAD2Ti28ofQX4+ALYZX65nk0Uw8kHZ-TNKhJtkY7P3B8crHot7Q@mail.gmail.com>

On Thu, Oct 1, 2015 at 4:05 AM, Georgi Guninski <guninski at guninski.com> wrote:
> Did this list do something of real significance?

Recently? ...

https://cpunks.org/pipermail/cypherpunks/




From juan.g71 at gmail.com  Thu Oct  1 00:36:53 2015
From: juan.g71 at gmail.com (Juan)
Date: Thu, 1 Oct 2015 04:36:53 -0300
Subject: Snowden on the Twitters
In-Reply-To: <560CD686.8010501@openmailbox.org>
References: <CAD2Ti2-ZiZDAR_mLFAQqcgLVyyvrv2o2Kx3ri+jBK3o7aUF6QA@mail.gmail.com>
 <20150930062542.GA2618@sivokote.iziade.m$>
 <CD8AB160-F010-43C7-8A05-091C48DE043D@openmailbox.org>
 <20150930115346.GD2618@sivokote.iziade.m$>
 <560C3A26.4010709@openmailbox.org>
 <20151001053452.GA2752@sivokote.iziade.m$>
 <560CD686.8010501@openmailbox.org>
Message-ID: <560ce15f.0212370a.97fe1.ffffa6e2@mx.google.com>

On Thu, 01 Oct 2015 07:45:26 +0100
oshwm <oshwm at openmailbox.org> wrote:


> " All I wanted was for
> the public to be able to have a say in how they are governed."


	snowden can't be THAT stupid...?



> 
> On 01/10/15 06:34, Georgi Guninski wrote:
> > On Wed, Sep 30, 2015 at 08:38:14PM +0100, oshwm wrote:
> >> Snowden is a moderate extremist, he doesn't want transparent
> >> government and private individuals, he just wants a discussion on
> >> where to draw the line with surveillance, his leaks are purely to
> >> further this aim. Assange and the people who have worked with him
> >> on leaks are more the kind of people we need.
> > You well might be right that CF are evil. FP should have written on
> > their privacy page they don't have the SSL private key.
> >
> > The claim about Snowden is quite strong, what is a reference for
> > this?
> >
> >
> 




From grarpamp at gmail.com  Thu Oct  1 01:39:58 2015
From: grarpamp at gmail.com (grarpamp)
Date: Thu, 1 Oct 2015 04:39:58 -0400
Subject: Snowden on the Twitters
In-Reply-To: <20151001083247.GD2752@sivokote.iziade.m$>
References: <CAD2Ti2-ZiZDAR_mLFAQqcgLVyyvrv2o2Kx3ri+jBK3o7aUF6QA@mail.gmail.com>
 <20150930062542.GA2618@sivokote.iziade.m$>
 <CD8AB160-F010-43C7-8A05-091C48DE043D@openmailbox.org>
 <20150930115346.GD2618@sivokote.iziade.m$> <560C3A26.4010709@openmailbox.org>
 <20151001053452.GA2752@sivokote.iziade.m$> <560CD686.8010501@openmailbox.org>
 <560ce15f.0212370a.97fe1.ffffa6e2@mx.google.com>
 <20151001080545.GC2752@sivokote.iziade.m$>
 <CAD2Ti28ofQX4+ALYZX65nk0Uw8kHZ-TNKhJtkY7P3B8crHot7Q@mail.gmail.com>
 <20151001083247.GD2752@sivokote.iziade.m$>
Message-ID: <CAD2Ti28d0nNfykH_5vxy3yzFhRRgenhd=9zGNO_d==9XP6sgSg@mail.gmail.com>

On Thu, Oct 1, 2015 at 4:32 AM, Georgi Guninski <guninski at guninski.com> wrote:
> On Thu, Oct 01, 2015 at 04:23:51AM -0400, grarpamp wrote:
>> On Thu, Oct 1, 2015 at 4:05 AM, Georgi Guninski <guninski at guninski.com> wrote:
>> > Did this list do something of real significance?
>>
>> Recently? ...
>>
>> https://cpunks.org/pipermail/cypherpunks/
>
> Not necessarily recently, ever.

http://cryptome.org/2013/09/cpunks-crypto.htm




From jya at pipeline.com  Thu Oct  1 04:05:54 2015
From: jya at pipeline.com (John Young)
Date: Thu, 01 Oct 2015 07:05:54 -0400
Subject: Snowden on the Twitters
In-Reply-To: <20151001080545.GC2752@sivokote.iziade.m$>
References: <CAD2Ti2-ZiZDAR_mLFAQqcgLVyyvrv2o2Kx3ri+jBK3o7aUF6QA@mail.gmail.com>
 <20150930062542.GA2618@sivokote.iziade.m$>
 <CD8AB160-F010-43C7-8A05-091C48DE043D@openmailbox.org>
 <20150930115346.GD2618@sivokote.iziade.m$>
 <560C3A26.4010709@openmailbox.org>
 <20151001053452.GA2752@sivokote.iziade.m$>
 <560CD686.8010501@openmailbox.org>
 <560ce15f.0212370a.97fe1.ffffa6e2@mx.google.com>
 <20151001080545.GC2752@sivokote.iziade.m$>
Message-ID: <E1Zhbff-0001Ev-Jd@elasmtp-spurfowl.atl.sa.earthlink.net>


>IMHO Snowden did something of real significance.

Snowden is to be pitied for believing giving material to the press to do with
what it likes is a victory.

Giving all material to the press for its mediation, interpretation and
monetization, as well as consulting with representatives of government
on what to publish, hardly changes the status quo of representative, rather
than direct democracy.

Snowden and the press are complicit in withholding the alleged material
he took, even now the public does not know and may never know what
that material consists of. The soup has been contaminated by editorial
selection, redaction and interpretation. That may be inevitable with the
sordid process the press calls leaking ("wikileaks" compounds the falsity
of censorious and editorially regulated pubic participation -- wiki -- and
exploitive, biased, corrupt, dramatized disclosure -- leaks).

Withholding material by self-empowered representatives, whether Snowden
or the press, self-regulating lawyers, stock peddlers and other professionals,
is a variation on official secrecy by which secret keepers pad their income
and perks so long as they abide the cult of secrecy. All this has been
done in the Snowden affair, as well as Ellsberg's. Those who don't
abid the cult go to jail, or ruined financially, or stigmatized for life.

Even now the representatives of the government, NGOs ACLU, EFF, MSM
and Freedom of the Press are negotiating a deal for Snowden for his return
to the US, following the Ellsberg precedent. The USG appears to be willing
to make a deal with all sides claiming victory "for the people." When such
deals are primarily beneficial to the secretkeepers and interpreters and
judges of what the public is allowed to know while "protecting national
security."

Finally, cpunks was founded, and may still, to advocate and demonstrate
an alternative to paternalistic, covertly royalist and militarily and spying
tyrannical, representative government. Phil Zimmermann called his PGP,
Tim May called his version Cryptoanarchy, Jim Bell called his Assassination
Politics, others called theirs financial, black net, anonymization, wikileaks,
and a slew of variations (see Wikipedia for those). Fortunately quite few
avoided naming and publicizing their alternatives to minimize being tagged
as traitors and worse -- those remain quietly virulent, albeit some were
snatched by governments to be insiders and informants.

Insiders and informants have always been welcomed on this list. This to
avoid the venal corruption of secrecy, asymmetrical exploitation of leaders
over followers, and the crippling narcotic of believing public interest is the
same as privileged party interest, and worse, that the concomitant rewards
of being somebody publicized is superior to being out of sight working
hard to undermine archies of all stripes -- oligarchy of the Omidyar type
currently underwriting the Snowden sweettalking of NGO field bosses
overseeing booty distribution handsomely paid by tax write-offs.

As Snowden tweets, he's a director at Freedom of the Press. That is,
still among the privileged insiders of loyal opposition. As here.






From jya at pipeline.com  Thu Oct  1 04:23:28 2015
From: jya at pipeline.com (John Young)
Date: Thu, 01 Oct 2015 07:23:28 -0400
Subject: Snowden on the Twitters
In-Reply-To: <20151001090557.GE2752@sivokote.iziade.m$>
References: <CD8AB160-F010-43C7-8A05-091C48DE043D@openmailbox.org>
 <20150930115346.GD2618@sivokote.iziade.m$>
 <560C3A26.4010709@openmailbox.org>
 <20151001053452.GA2752@sivokote.iziade.m$>
 <560CD686.8010501@openmailbox.org>
 <560ce15f.0212370a.97fe1.ffffa6e2@mx.google.com>
 <20151001080545.GC2752@sivokote.iziade.m$>
 <CAD2Ti28ofQX4+ALYZX65nk0Uw8kHZ-TNKhJtkY7P3B8crHot7Q@mail.gmail.com>
 <20151001083247.GD2752@sivokote.iziade.m$>
 <CAD2Ti28d0nNfykH_5vxy3yzFhRRgenhd=9zGNO_d==9XP6sgSg@mail.gmail.com>
 <20151001090557.GE2752@sivokote.iziade.m$>
Message-ID: <E1ZhbwZ-0001k5-Tt@elasmtp-mealy.atl.sa.earthlink.net>


>btw, I accessed your link over httpS and it serves http, the
>implications of which are clear. From the source:
>
><IMG WIDTH="250" HEIGHT="75" SRC="http://cryptome.org/cryptome-01.jpg">

HTTPS has become a fetish, maybe always was. It serves as an end 
point fig leaf,
simulates privacy and infosec, but does not protect visitors from the 
full stream of
access to their traffic end to end. Same for shallow, exculpatory 
privacy policy
always "taken very seriously" laughingly. So encryption and 
anonymization provide
decorous couture of genitals while leaving the rest bare assed.

Web sites are insecure by the very design of the Internet which 
allows operators
and administrators full access to traffic "so it can be maintained 
properly." That
is policed and spied behind misleading signs of safety like HTTPS and privacy
policy. Every web site operator knows this and keeps it quiet to avoid scaring
away visitors. So they adopt the latest fig leafs and earnestly promote them
as essential while hacking and spying predators continue to ravage 
the Internet
as if the planet was created for the benefit of warmakers and their engineers
and suppliers.






From Rayzer at riseup.net  Thu Oct  1 08:03:59 2015
From: Rayzer at riseup.net (Razer)
Date: Thu, 1 Oct 2015 08:03:59 -0700
Subject: Snowden on the Twitters
In-Reply-To: <560ce15f.0212370a.97fe1.ffffa6e2@mx.google.com>
References: <CAD2Ti2-ZiZDAR_mLFAQqcgLVyyvrv2o2Kx3ri+jBK3o7aUF6QA@mail.gmail.com>
 <20150930062542.GA2618@sivokote.iziade.m$>
 <CD8AB160-F010-43C7-8A05-091C48DE043D@openmailbox.org>
 <20150930115346.GD2618@sivokote.iziade.m$> <560C3A26.4010709@openmailbox.org>
 <20151001053452.GA2752@sivokote.iziade.m$> <560CD686.8010501@openmailbox.org>
 <560ce15f.0212370a.97fe1.ffffa6e2@mx.google.com>
Message-ID: <560D4B5F.3010305@riseup.net>



On 10/01/2015 12:36 AM, Juan wrote:
> On Thu, 01 Oct 2015 07:45:26 +0100
> oshwm <oshwm at openmailbox.org> wrote:
>
>
>> " All I wanted was for the public to be able to have a say in how they are governed."
>
> 	snowden can't be THAT stupid...?
>
>
>

He believe in the 'system'.

RR

“Any movement that seeks social justice through political involvement
and attempting to hold public officials democratically accountable is
doomed to failure. The only real way to achieve social justice is by
bypassing the state, treating it as irrelevant, and building the kind of
society we want without the government’s permission.” -Kevin Carson, The
Joke of Democratic Accountability

https://c4ss.org/content/13076


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From Rayzer at riseup.net  Thu Oct  1 08:23:46 2015
From: Rayzer at riseup.net (Razer)
Date: Thu, 1 Oct 2015 08:23:46 -0700
Subject: Snowden on the Twitters
In-Reply-To: <CAD2Ti298nyvA6d76XJ0XYNZzSEZ4S-a3cpd2C7gi=5tjWuukzg@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAD2Ti2-ZiZDAR_mLFAQqcgLVyyvrv2o2Kx3ri+jBK3o7aUF6QA@mail.gmail.com>
 <20150930062542.GA2618@sivokote.iziade.m$>
 <CD8AB160-F010-43C7-8A05-091C48DE043D@openmailbox.org>
 <20150930115346.GD2618@sivokote.iziade.m$>
 <CAD2Ti298nyvA6d76XJ0XYNZzSEZ4S-a3cpd2C7gi=5tjWuukzg@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <560D5002.5070206@riseup.net>

On 10/01/2015 12:55 AM, grarpamp wrote:
> http://docs.house.gov/meetings/FA/FA18/20150127/102855/HHRG-114-FA18-Wstate-KohlmannE-20150127.pdf


"...the  Internet  Archive  has  become  the de-facto  preferred 
storage  point  for  jihadi  audio and  video..."

Domestic turruristses!

https://archive.org/details/tth_090220

https://archive.org/details/CabaleNewsServices





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From guninski at guninski.com  Thu Oct  1 01:05:45 2015
From: guninski at guninski.com (Georgi Guninski)
Date: Thu, 1 Oct 2015 11:05:45 +0300
Subject: Snowden on the Twitters
In-Reply-To: <560ce15f.0212370a.97fe1.ffffa6e2@mx.google.com>
References: <CAD2Ti2-ZiZDAR_mLFAQqcgLVyyvrv2o2Kx3ri+jBK3o7aUF6QA@mail.gmail.com>
 <20150930062542.GA2618@sivokote.iziade.m$>
 <CD8AB160-F010-43C7-8A05-091C48DE043D@openmailbox.org>
 <20150930115346.GD2618@sivokote.iziade.m$>
 <560C3A26.4010709@openmailbox.org>
 <20151001053452.GA2752@sivokote.iziade.m$>
 <560CD686.8010501@openmailbox.org>
 <560ce15f.0212370a.97fe1.ffffa6e2@mx.google.com>
Message-ID: <20151001080545.GC2752@sivokote.iziade.m$>

On Thu, Oct 01, 2015 at 04:36:53AM -0300, Juan wrote:
> On Thu, 01 Oct 2015 07:45:26 +0100
> oshwm <oshwm at openmailbox.org> wrote:
> 
> 
> > " All I wanted was for
> > the public to be able to have a say in how they are governed."
> 
> 
> 	snowden can't be THAT stupid...?


IMHO Snowden did something of real significance.

Don't care if he is totally stupid or even crazy.

I am new to this list and have question:

Did this list do something of real significance?

AFAICT there are technical/political/crypto/trolling discussions of high
quality, but this is just smalltalk.




From Rayzer at riseup.net  Thu Oct  1 11:09:38 2015
From: Rayzer at riseup.net (Razer)
Date: Thu, 1 Oct 2015 11:09:38 -0700
Subject: Snowden on the Twitters
In-Reply-To: <560d6925.4bc28c0a.c22a.fffff9a4@mx.google.com>
References: <CAD2Ti2-ZiZDAR_mLFAQqcgLVyyvrv2o2Kx3ri+jBK3o7aUF6QA@mail.gmail.com>
 <20150930062542.GA2618@sivokote.iziade.m$>
 <CD8AB160-F010-43C7-8A05-091C48DE043D@openmailbox.org>
 <20150930115346.GD2618@sivokote.iziade.m$> <560C3A26.4010709@openmailbox.org>
 <20151001053452.GA2752@sivokote.iziade.m$> <560CD686.8010501@openmailbox.org>
 <560ce15f.0212370a.97fe1.ffffa6e2@mx.google.com>
 <20151001080545.GC2752@sivokote.iziade.m$>
 <560d6925.4bc28c0a.c22a.fffff9a4@mx.google.com>
Message-ID: <560D76E2.40601@riseup.net>



On 10/01/2015 10:16 AM, Juan wrote:
> True. We should blow up the pentagon. 

Or at least virtually surround it, chant om, and it will rise, turn
purple, and all the evil emanations will flee...

Imagine. If the MPs had actually allowed the crowd to do that in 1967,
how different the world would be today.

(RR extracts tongue from cheek and spits in the general direction of the
beltway...)

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From drwho at virtadpt.net  Thu Oct  1 11:23:48 2015
From: drwho at virtadpt.net (The Doctor)
Date: Thu, 1 Oct 2015 11:23:48 -0700
Subject: Snowden on the Twitters
In-Reply-To: <560D5002.5070206@riseup.net>
References: <CAD2Ti2-ZiZDAR_mLFAQqcgLVyyvrv2o2Kx3ri+jBK3o7aUF6QA@mail.gmail.com>
 <20150930062542.GA2618@sivokote.iziade.m$>
 <CD8AB160-F010-43C7-8A05-091C48DE043D@openmailbox.org>
 <20150930115346.GD2618@sivokote.iziade.m$>
 <CAD2Ti298nyvA6d76XJ0XYNZzSEZ4S-a3cpd2C7gi=5tjWuukzg@mail.gmail.com>
 <560D5002.5070206@riseup.net>
Message-ID: <20151001112348.8cf133902019db54bf5ccba9@virtadpt.net>

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On Thu, 1 Oct 2015 08:23:46 -0700
Razer <Rayzer at riseup.net> wrote:

> "...the  Internet  Archive  has  become  the de-facto  preferred 
> storage  point  for  jihadi  audio and  video..."

One being's archive is another being's intel source.

- -- 
The Doctor [412/724/301/703/415] [ZS]

PGP: 0x807B17C1 / 7960 1CDC 85C9 0B63 8D9F  DD89 3BD8 FF2B 807B 17C1
WWW: https://drwho.virtadpt.net/

"Will I dream?"

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From guninski at guninski.com  Thu Oct  1 01:32:47 2015
From: guninski at guninski.com (Georgi Guninski)
Date: Thu, 1 Oct 2015 11:32:47 +0300
Subject: Snowden on the Twitters
In-Reply-To: <CAD2Ti28ofQX4+ALYZX65nk0Uw8kHZ-TNKhJtkY7P3B8crHot7Q@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAD2Ti2-ZiZDAR_mLFAQqcgLVyyvrv2o2Kx3ri+jBK3o7aUF6QA@mail.gmail.com>
 <20150930062542.GA2618@sivokote.iziade.m$>
 <CD8AB160-F010-43C7-8A05-091C48DE043D@openmailbox.org>
 <20150930115346.GD2618@sivokote.iziade.m$>
 <560C3A26.4010709@openmailbox.org>
 <20151001053452.GA2752@sivokote.iziade.m$>
 <560CD686.8010501@openmailbox.org>
 <560ce15f.0212370a.97fe1.ffffa6e2@mx.google.com>
 <20151001080545.GC2752@sivokote.iziade.m$>
 <CAD2Ti28ofQX4+ALYZX65nk0Uw8kHZ-TNKhJtkY7P3B8crHot7Q@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <20151001083247.GD2752@sivokote.iziade.m$>

On Thu, Oct 01, 2015 at 04:23:51AM -0400, grarpamp wrote:
> On Thu, Oct 1, 2015 at 4:05 AM, Georgi Guninski <guninski at guninski.com> wrote:
> > Did this list do something of real significance?
> 
> Recently? ...
> 
> https://cpunks.org/pipermail/cypherpunks/

Not necessarily recently, ever.

What is your link suppose to answer, please give explicit answer.

I have read most of the list since about 1.5 years.




From guninski at guninski.com  Thu Oct  1 02:05:57 2015
From: guninski at guninski.com (Georgi Guninski)
Date: Thu, 1 Oct 2015 12:05:57 +0300
Subject: Snowden on the Twitters
In-Reply-To: <CAD2Ti28d0nNfykH_5vxy3yzFhRRgenhd=9zGNO_d==9XP6sgSg@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CD8AB160-F010-43C7-8A05-091C48DE043D@openmailbox.org>
 <20150930115346.GD2618@sivokote.iziade.m$>
 <560C3A26.4010709@openmailbox.org>
 <20151001053452.GA2752@sivokote.iziade.m$>
 <560CD686.8010501@openmailbox.org>
 <560ce15f.0212370a.97fe1.ffffa6e2@mx.google.com>
 <20151001080545.GC2752@sivokote.iziade.m$>
 <CAD2Ti28ofQX4+ALYZX65nk0Uw8kHZ-TNKhJtkY7P3B8crHot7Q@mail.gmail.com>
 <20151001083247.GD2752@sivokote.iziade.m$>
 <CAD2Ti28d0nNfykH_5vxy3yzFhRRgenhd=9zGNO_d==9XP6sgSg@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <20151001090557.GE2752@sivokote.iziade.m$>

On Thu, Oct 01, 2015 at 04:39:58AM -0400, grarpamp wrote:
> On Thu, Oct 1, 2015 at 4:32 AM, Georgi Guninski <guninski at guninski.com> wrote:
> > On Thu, Oct 01, 2015 at 04:23:51AM -0400, grarpamp wrote:
> >> On Thu, Oct 1, 2015 at 4:05 AM, Georgi Guninski <guninski at guninski.com> wrote:
> >> > Did this list do something of real significance?
> >>
> >> Recently? ...
> >>
> >> https://cpunks.org/pipermail/cypherpunks/
> >
> > Not necessarily recently, ever.
> 
> http://cryptome.org/2013/09/cpunks-crypto.htm

btw, I accessed your link over httpS and it serves http, the
implications of which are clear. From the source:

<IMG WIDTH="250" HEIGHT="75" SRC="http://cryptome.org/cryptome-01.jpg">

I know I am dumb, but still fail to understand the answer.




From juan.g71 at gmail.com  Thu Oct  1 10:16:14 2015
From: juan.g71 at gmail.com (Juan)
Date: Thu, 1 Oct 2015 14:16:14 -0300
Subject: Snowden on the Twitters
In-Reply-To: <20151001080545.GC2752@sivokote.iziade.m$>
References: <CAD2Ti2-ZiZDAR_mLFAQqcgLVyyvrv2o2Kx3ri+jBK3o7aUF6QA@mail.gmail.com>
 <20150930062542.GA2618@sivokote.iziade.m$>
 <CD8AB160-F010-43C7-8A05-091C48DE043D@openmailbox.org>
 <20150930115346.GD2618@sivokote.iziade.m$>
 <560C3A26.4010709@openmailbox.org>
 <20151001053452.GA2752@sivokote.iziade.m$>
 <560CD686.8010501@openmailbox.org>
 <560ce15f.0212370a.97fe1.ffffa6e2@mx.google.com>
 <20151001080545.GC2752@sivokote.iziade.m$>
Message-ID: <560d6925.4bc28c0a.c22a.fffff9a4@mx.google.com>

On Thu, 1 Oct 2015 11:05:45 +0300
Georgi Guninski <guninski at guninski.com> wrote:

> On Thu, Oct 01, 2015 at 04:36:53AM -0300, Juan wrote:
> > On Thu, 01 Oct 2015 07:45:26 +0100
> > oshwm <oshwm at openmailbox.org> wrote:
> > 
> > 
> > > " All I wanted was for
> > > the public to be able to have a say in how they are governed."
> > 
> > 
> > 	snowden can't be THAT stupid...?
> 
> 
> IMHO Snowden did something of real significance.


	And that is? Sure he pissed off both left-wing and right-wing
	american fascists and assorted lackeys. But it doesn't look as
	if the powers that be were much affected, if at all. 

	Regardless, his 'theoretical' views on government are a joke.

> 
> Don't care if he is totally stupid or even crazy.
> 
	Well, I find it somewhat entertaining that a guy being hunted by
	'his own' government still babbles nonsense about government...


> I am new to this list and have question:
> 
> Did this list do something of real significance?
> 
> AFAICT there are technical/political/crypto/trolling discussions of
> high quality, but this is just smalltalk.
> 


	True. We should blow up the pentagon. 




From guninski at guninski.com  Thu Oct  1 04:57:04 2015
From: guninski at guninski.com (Georgi Guninski)
Date: Thu, 1 Oct 2015 14:57:04 +0300
Subject: Snowden on the Twitters
In-Reply-To: <E1ZhbwZ-0001k5-Tt@elasmtp-mealy.atl.sa.earthlink.net>
References: <560C3A26.4010709@openmailbox.org>
 <20151001053452.GA2752@sivokote.iziade.m$>
 <560CD686.8010501@openmailbox.org>
 <560ce15f.0212370a.97fe1.ffffa6e2@mx.google.com>
 <20151001080545.GC2752@sivokote.iziade.m$>
 <CAD2Ti28ofQX4+ALYZX65nk0Uw8kHZ-TNKhJtkY7P3B8crHot7Q@mail.gmail.com>
 <20151001083247.GD2752@sivokote.iziade.m$>
 <CAD2Ti28d0nNfykH_5vxy3yzFhRRgenhd=9zGNO_d==9XP6sgSg@mail.gmail.com>
 <20151001090557.GE2752@sivokote.iziade.m$>
 <E1ZhbwZ-0001k5-Tt@elasmtp-mealy.atl.sa.earthlink.net>
Message-ID: <20151001115704.GH2752@sivokote.iziade.m$>

On Thu, Oct 01, 2015 at 07:23:28AM -0400, John Young wrote:
> 
> >btw, I accessed your link over httpS and it serves http, the
> >implications of which are clear. From the source:
> >
> ><IMG WIDTH="250" HEIGHT="75" SRC="http://cryptome.org/cryptome-01.jpg">
> 
> HTTPS has become a fetish, maybe always was. It serves as an end
> point fig leaf,
> simulates privacy and infosec, but does not protect visitors from
> the full stream of
> access to their traffic end to end. Same for shallow, exculpatory
> privacy policy

I suppose it doesn't hurt to fix this ``issue'', likely even it will
reduce traffic by using relative resource.

Are you the same JYA who trusts PGP and criticizes HTTPS?
(IMHO both suck)






From juan.g71 at gmail.com  Thu Oct  1 11:05:20 2015
From: juan.g71 at gmail.com (Juan)
Date: Thu, 1 Oct 2015 15:05:20 -0300
Subject: Snowden on the Twitters
In-Reply-To: <560D4B5F.3010305@riseup.net>
References: <CAD2Ti2-ZiZDAR_mLFAQqcgLVyyvrv2o2Kx3ri+jBK3o7aUF6QA@mail.gmail.com>
 <20150930062542.GA2618@sivokote.iziade.m$>
 <CD8AB160-F010-43C7-8A05-091C48DE043D@openmailbox.org>
 <20150930115346.GD2618@sivokote.iziade.m$>
 <560C3A26.4010709@openmailbox.org>
 <20151001053452.GA2752@sivokote.iziade.m$>
 <560CD686.8010501@openmailbox.org>
 <560ce15f.0212370a.97fe1.ffffa6e2@mx.google.com>
 <560D4B5F.3010305@riseup.net>
Message-ID: <560d74a8.862b8c0a.d0ce8.027e@mx.google.com>

On Thu, 1 Oct 2015 08:03:59 -0700
Razer <Rayzer at riseup.net> wrote:

> 
> 
> On 10/01/2015 12:36 AM, Juan wrote:
> > On Thu, 01 Oct 2015 07:45:26 +0100
> > oshwm <oshwm at openmailbox.org> wrote:
> >
> >
> >> " All I wanted was for the public to be able to have a say in how
> >> they are governed."
> >
> > 	snowden can't be THAT stupid...?
> >
> >
> >
> 
> He believe in the 'system'.

	So it seems. Or at least he pretends he does. 


> 
> RR
> 
> “Any movement that seeks social justice through political involvement
> and attempting to hold public officials democratically accountable is
> doomed to failure. The only real way to achieve social justice is by
> bypassing the state, treating it as irrelevant, and building the kind
> of society we want without the government’s permission.” -Kevin
> Carson, The Joke of Democratic Accountability
> 
> https://c4ss.org/content/13076
> 
> 




From shelley at misanthropia.org  Thu Oct  1 15:09:40 2015
From: shelley at misanthropia.org (Shelley)
Date: Thu, 01 Oct 2015 15:09:40 -0700
Subject: freedom.press, also the firstlook/intercept...
In-Reply-To: <560DAB81.7060800@pilobilus.net>
References: <20150930200213.GE13534@ctrlc.hu> <560DAB81.7060800@pilobilus.net>
Message-ID: <20151001220923.A0DFC6801A8@frontend2.nyi.internal>

On October 1, 2015 3:01:55 PM Steve Kinney <admin at pilobilus.net> wrote:

> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
> Hash: SHA1
>
> On 09/30/2015 04:02 PM, stef wrote:
> > and they host all the juicy bits on documents on documentcloud,
> > requiring anyone interested to expose themselves. it is not
> > possible to download the dumps anonymously in a simple zip
> > file, you really have to use goddamn javascript.
> >
> > this is totally unacceptable. when approached on this, you get
> > very irritated answers, if at all. to say "this stinks" is an
> > understatement. it's a goddamn trap.
>
> I am not inclined to believe that a "simple zip file" can be
> downloaded anonymously, without employing extraordinary OpSec
> procedures that would incidentally render javascript useless for
> tracking purposes.  Not if the adversaries in your threat model
> include any official agency of any of the FVEYE countries, or any
> of the major private contractors working with them.
>
> The network itself is the trap, with or without javascript, with
> or without obfuscation via TOR or etc.  I would be much more
> concerned with the handling of those downloaded files on the local
> machine - if a trap is suspected, zero day exploits hidden in the
> files should be assumed.
>
> :o)
>
>
> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----

[Snip]

Agree with both sentiments, but - who the hell opens documents of dubious 
origin on a networked machine?  Even on an airgapped machine, I still use a 
VM...

-S





From guninski at guninski.com  Thu Oct  1 07:43:18 2015
From: guninski at guninski.com (Georgi Guninski)
Date: Thu, 1 Oct 2015 17:43:18 +0300
Subject: CloudFlare Keyless SSL WAS Re: Snowden on the Twitters
In-Reply-To: <1443707313.233533.398620313.6588E9F5@webmail.messagingengine.com>
References: <CAKtE3zdQCroEFu6G5e4M9RqpvaEHNSvoRp75iurxzqeXVfDQ8Q@mail.gmail.com>
 <1443646338.695158.397968585.3B6987FA@webmail.messagingengine.com>
 <CAKtE3zda+o65oJum2-9EYsFVv5npnSesfCO3Zz0F7mT6xnjXgA@mail.gmail.com>
 <1443707313.233533.398620313.6588E9F5@webmail.messagingengine.com>
Message-ID: <20151001144318.GK2752@sivokote.iziade.m$>

On Thu, Oct 01, 2015 at 11:48:33PM +1000, Alfie John wrote:
> Front page of HN:
> 
>   https://hacks.mozilla.org/2015/09/subresource-integrity-in-firefox-43/
>

Lol, I don't trust neither mozilla nor google (in practice owner of the
former).

Before trying to secure ``mobile code'', they should _try_ to secure the
platform (maybe they call it kernel) on which malware runs.

Ever bothered to check the rates at which mozilla updates occur?

Ever read a mozilla security advisory?
(usually it essentially reads "multiple parties disclosed multiple
vulnerabilities, check HIDDEN BUGZILLA/PRIVATE-CVE)





From admin at pilobilus.net  Thu Oct  1 14:54:09 2015
From: admin at pilobilus.net (Steve Kinney)
Date: Thu, 1 Oct 2015 17:54:09 -0400
Subject: freedom.press, also the firstlook/intercept...
In-Reply-To: <20150930200213.GE13534@ctrlc.hu>
References: <20150930200213.GE13534@ctrlc.hu>
Message-ID: <560DAB81.7060800@pilobilus.net>

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1

On 09/30/2015 04:02 PM, stef wrote:
> and they host all the juicy bits on documents on documentcloud,
> requiring anyone interested to expose themselves. it is not
> possible to download the dumps anonymously in a simple zip
> file, you really have to use goddamn javascript.
> 
> this is totally unacceptable. when approached on this, you get
> very irritated answers, if at all. to say "this stinks" is an
> understatement. it's a goddamn trap.

I am not inclined to believe that a "simple zip file" can be
downloaded anonymously, without employing extraordinary OpSec
procedures that would incidentally render javascript useless for
tracking purposes.  Not if the adversaries in your threat model
include any official agency of any of the FVEYE countries, or any
of the major private contractors working with them.

The network itself is the trap, with or without javascript, with
or without obfuscation via TOR or etc.  I would be much more
concerned with the handling of those downloaded files on the local
machine - if a trap is suspected, zero day exploits hidden in the
files should be assumed.

:o)


-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: GnuPG v1

iQIcBAEBAgAGBQJWDat/AAoJEDZ0Gg87KR0LC94QAL39VlUBFSpnW8nuvMuA0aiW
J6Qc3IbqulWNQAyvba8ISmAKpMrYRq3RHUF6ATWRNXRyG4UURS6SRRhTpw/WnYmv
JgQzacPBR5NHEYMGXOh3pb/RZ4aKLFq7Jx3/y9jqkCHBfUCqouYmEmTS3wxaGeAj
gWB4gMhSxcF5FvQGap9VUXTWJNUasrEd+Cl+1rlcxJY+2IJ0AkZgNdlXVfhJb7yD
m115MLvmQFOdmMSTYGhA54rKReNepUc4PM8Wda9y0r+/MQpxlmx3A095z+QHqYfQ
Fs/eiDGeYDmAOZy5SG/TZSGqxGUj6Yto+UfAu5nEt/4aBrMpgyd8qlg+cZquACoi
ZIXqF09g/Jtaw6gZ2uBbXFI1Spiq3tT7lv3AnADhyAwRtjlquPNaTjgY/BckzavQ
5DSzYp9b52Fd5fsWzkhJ8SInG4wcGgPKjFJscWlTvMyvvmrzjRl1Ua6MqUnXG/b9
Z9L7K1S4qzOmcEGl05BtWIThPxZw4Tr6xQbQ08lbcMrpa8IBP2Eb1C778eULIU2m
37JCugF3FprRZvpymnpQIBVi9ly2S2Y1629YfJB/Zs0zCy0cd5u6XcqnLwELCdMR
pM/J5AHJEyv1dPzAEaIGXPdxpkHuH1rtdAgeAM85FUt0UzsOc3rM9PdFQ8xKSV4D
Mh58LWEHn2x8unlFYnJ9
=KVQL
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----




From jdb10987 at yahoo.com  Thu Oct  1 11:13:08 2015
From: jdb10987 at yahoo.com (jim bell)
Date: Thu, 1 Oct 2015 18:13:08 +0000 (UTC)
Subject: Allegedly Volkswagen cheated to both governments and lusers
In-Reply-To: <20150929060555.GA2518@sivokote.iziade.m$>
References: <20150929060555.GA2518@sivokote.iziade.m$>
Message-ID: <725470833.3914652.1443723188837.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com>

  From: Georgi Guninski <guninski at guninski.com>
IMHO besides VW others outside Germany should be punished too.
https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Volkswagen_emissions_violations&oldid=683264419

The U.S. test results confirmed the ICCT's findings in Europe.[37] The
West Virginia scientists didn't identify the defeat device, but reported
their findings in a study they presented directly to the EPA and CARB in
May 2014.[41][42]
And in 2013 there was warning about "defeat device"
There probably isn't any specific "defeat device".  These days, probably all fuel engines are controlled by complex computer programs, that take various inputs (ambient temperature, ambient air pressure, engine temperature, and perhaps others) and make complicated adjustments in inputs to the engine, in order to make the engine run better in various ways.  In other words, the "defeat device" is in the software, not the hardware.               Jim bell







  
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From guninski at guninski.com  Thu Oct  1 08:14:33 2015
From: guninski at guninski.com (Georgi Guninski)
Date: Thu, 1 Oct 2015 18:14:33 +0300
Subject: CloudFlare Keyless SSL WAS Re: Snowden on the Twitters
In-Reply-To: <1443711898.252353.398701225.632008B3@webmail.messagingengine.com>
References: <CAKtE3zdQCroEFu6G5e4M9RqpvaEHNSvoRp75iurxzqeXVfDQ8Q@mail.gmail.com>
 <1443646338.695158.397968585.3B6987FA@webmail.messagingengine.com>
 <CAKtE3zda+o65oJum2-9EYsFVv5npnSesfCO3Zz0F7mT6xnjXgA@mail.gmail.com>
 <1443707313.233533.398620313.6588E9F5@webmail.messagingengine.com>
 <20151001144318.GK2752@sivokote.iziade.m$>
 <1443711898.252353.398701225.632008B3@webmail.messagingengine.com>
Message-ID: <20151001151433.GM2752@sivokote.iziade.m$>

On Fri, Oct 02, 2015 at 01:04:58AM +1000, Alfie John wrote:
> On Fri, Oct 2, 2015, at 12:43 AM, Georgi Guninski wrote:
> > On Thu, Oct 01, 2015 at 11:48:33PM +1000, Alfie John wrote:
> > > Front page of HN:
> > > 
> > >   https://hacks.mozilla.org/2015/09/subresource-integrity-in-firefox-43/
> > >
> > 
> > Lol, I don't trust neither mozilla nor google (in practice owner of the
> > former).
> > 
> > Before trying to secure ``mobile code'', they should _try_ to secure the
> > platform (maybe they call it kernel) on which malware runs.
> > 
> > Ever bothered to check the rates at which mozilla updates occur?
> > 
> > Ever read a mozilla security advisory?
> > (usually it essentially reads "multiple parties disclosed multiple
> > vulnerabilities, check HIDDEN BUGZILLA/PRIVATE-CVE)
> 
> If that's the case, how do you Internet?
>

Using as little javascript as possible, not visiting JS sites (this
doesn't mean I am not pwned).

btw, the link you gave made laugh, from it:
<script src="https://code.jquery.com/jquery-2.1.4.min.js"
integrity="sha384-R4/ztc4ZlRqWjqIuvf6RX5yb/v90qNGx6fS48N0tRxiGkqveZETq72KgDVJCp2TC"
crossorigin="anonymous"></script>


Observe that they are loading it from HTTPS and after that they verify,
lol. Is this public admission that HTTPS is broken beyond repair?

As someone already pointed out, ``mobile code'' is tricky stuff.

If the quoted script had |eval(stuff)|, the signature is pointless,
since the code is dynamic.





From guninski at guninski.com  Thu Oct  1 09:01:09 2015
From: guninski at guninski.com (Georgi Guninski)
Date: Thu, 1 Oct 2015 19:01:09 +0300
Subject: Snowden on the Twitters
In-Reply-To: <560D5002.5070206@riseup.net>
References: <CAD2Ti2-ZiZDAR_mLFAQqcgLVyyvrv2o2Kx3ri+jBK3o7aUF6QA@mail.gmail.com>
 <20150930062542.GA2618@sivokote.iziade.m$>
 <CD8AB160-F010-43C7-8A05-091C48DE043D@openmailbox.org>
 <20150930115346.GD2618@sivokote.iziade.m$>
 <CAD2Ti298nyvA6d76XJ0XYNZzSEZ4S-a3cpd2C7gi=5tjWuukzg@mail.gmail.com>
 <560D5002.5070206@riseup.net>
Message-ID: <20151001160109.GN2752@sivokote.iziade.m$>

On Thu, Oct 01, 2015 at 08:23:46AM -0700, Razer wrote:
> On 10/01/2015 12:55 AM, grarpamp wrote:
> > http://docs.house.gov/meetings/FA/FA18/20150127/102855/HHRG-114-FA18-Wstate-KohlmannE-20150127.pdf
> 
> 
> "...the  Internet  Archive  has  become  the de-facto  preferred 
> storage  point  for  jihadi  audio and  video..."
> 
> Domestic turruristses!
> 
> https://archive.org/details/tth_090220
> 
> https://archive.org/details/CabaleNewsServices
>


Russia Bans Wayback Machine Internet Archive Over Islamic State Video

The Moscow Times Oct. 26 2014 19:41

http://www.themoscowtimes.com/news/article/russia-bans-wayback-machine-internet-archive-over-islamic-state-video/510074.html

A handful of sites, including Wayback Machine's domain Archive.org, did
not comply, leading to their blacklisting.

Though only a few pages were deemed illegal, Archive.org was blacklisted
in its entirety because the state bans most sites by their IP address,
which is shared by all the site's pages.





From alfiej at fastmail.fm  Thu Oct  1 06:48:33 2015
From: alfiej at fastmail.fm (Alfie John)
Date: Thu, 01 Oct 2015 23:48:33 +1000
Subject: CloudFlare Keyless SSL WAS Re: Snowden on the Twitters
In-Reply-To: <CAKtE3zda+o65oJum2-9EYsFVv5npnSesfCO3Zz0F7mT6xnjXgA@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAKtE3zdQCroEFu6G5e4M9RqpvaEHNSvoRp75iurxzqeXVfDQ8Q@mail.gmail.com>
 <1443646338.695158.397968585.3B6987FA@webmail.messagingengine.com>
 <CAKtE3zda+o65oJum2-9EYsFVv5npnSesfCO3Zz0F7mT6xnjXgA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <1443707313.233533.398620313.6588E9F5@webmail.messagingengine.com>

On Thu, Oct 1, 2015, at 07:45 AM, Travis Biehn wrote:
> So, one of the difficulties w/ web-apps is that the 'code' is dynamic.
> You
> cannot implement a secure system if your attacker can change the code at
> any point in time. As is the threat model with backends, which attest to
> their 'trust me' security (a la lavabit, hushmail and so on) - so is the
> problem with client side code. If you build a web-app which does
> in-browser
> encryption and never sends the encryption key to the backend your
> attacker
> can simply modify the static JS source, DOM inject and XSS their way to
> your sweet sweet encrypted keys. Even if you audit your code at one point
> in time, you aren't certain it doesn't change with every request to the
> server.
> 
> SO
> 
> The first hurdle here is allowing users to reason about 'versions of
> web-app client assets' - if any part of the 'web-app client' relies on
> dynamic / non static JS, the application cannot effectively be
> 'versioned'
> (unless those sub-components are similarly versionable). A subset of HTML
> and JS is defined (safe javascript language subsets are a fail) AND the
> JS
> VM is modified to 'lock in' its object defns after loading.
> 
> So, then you can take the set of client side assets (html, js, images so
> on) hash each, add some version metadata and sign it. Version 1.

Front page of HN:

  https://hacks.mozilla.org/2015/09/subresource-integrity-in-firefox-43/

Alfie

-- 
  Alfie John
  alfiej at fastmail.fm




From zen at freedbms.net  Thu Oct  1 16:48:47 2015
From: zen at freedbms.net (Zenaan Harkness)
Date: Thu, 1 Oct 2015 23:48:47 +0000
Subject: [tor-talk] KARMA POLICE
In-Reply-To: <CAO7N=i0mwsukJeQKUCrV_=hh8pCMd+DK1E7oYWg4qG8WtiASUw@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAO7N=i0mwsukJeQKUCrV_=hh8pCMd+DK1E7oYWg4qG8WtiASUw@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAOsGNSQaLGxOTCX88DLTiR2Y0SCarY0ptyRisLprjGxFyG7HFA@mail.gmail.com>

On 10/1/15, Ryan Carboni <ryacko at gmail.com> wrote:
> http://arstechnica.com/tech-policy/2013/06/exclusive-in-2009-ed-snowden-said-leakers-should-be-shot-then-he-became-one/
>
> https://theintercept.com/2015/09/25/gchq-radio-porn-spies-track-web-users-online-identities/
>
> Yep.
>
> Time to create a massive donation drive for Tor.

I applaud and share your enthusiasm and intention. But.

The assumption that "enough money will solve the problem" is generally false.

What is needed is a supra-tor or supra-"supplied by the govt/ isp"
physical network layer - or at least enough nodes in a 'slightly new
design' network which can use those nodes (assuming there are enough
of them, which might be large number, I have no idea).

That means individuals setting up their own links between them and
their neighbors. Neighbors is a loose concept - wireless links can hop
a fair distance.

The principle is:
- if you don't control it, if you did not physically set it up, it monitors you;
- if you don't install and 'control' the software running on the
hardware, it monitors you;
- if your hardware is backdoored before you receive it (e.g. built in
hidden other-than-wifi radio, keylogging cpu microcode, full hidden
net sniffing computer in your ethernet port), notwithstanding the
software you install on it, it monitors you.

There is so much room for necessary improvement that the situation is
depressingly grim.

TBB/Tor is at least something - just be sure you understand what it
is, and what it is not.

Good luck and surf safe,
Zenaan




From ryacko at gmail.com  Fri Oct  2 00:07:59 2015
From: ryacko at gmail.com (Ryan Carboni)
Date: Fri, 2 Oct 2015 00:07:59 -0700
Subject: [tor-talk] KARMA POLICE
Message-ID: <CAO7N=i2oxo_jo_N=z3-a1FFyPj=Muc2fgJxGa_pWsOsQxEaUew@mail.gmail.com>

http://routersecurity.org/

It just simply doesn't matter.

To have a modern lifestyle, depends upon having devices of dubious or poor
security. The government has shown a willingness to accumulate dossiers
(seemingly including IRC chats), and then leak them when it serves their
own needs.

Our Congress is criminally incompetent. The chairman of the House Oversight
committee just had his secret service application leaked, and there is no
threat of the the most powerful tools that Congress has: appropriations
micromanagement (famously done in Congressional reconstruction) or
impeachment. The same goes for Benghazi (which probably was a meeting with
a rebel group that went sour). I think our government is more malicious and
less competent than Hoover's FBI.

For comparison:

“Another early Bureau practice was to index names on lists when the list
reflected possible association with a subversive group (e.g. Communist
Party petitions or subscriptions to the Daily People's World), or where the
names might have future reference value (American Legion contacts, loyalty
forms). The heavy demands on staff time and resources, however, and the
absence of substantial information about the individuals whose names
appeared in the this context caused the Bureau to limit indexing in these
areas. In 1949 the Executive Conference decided that names on Communist
Party petitions and subscription lists to the Daily Worker and Daily
People's World be indexed in the appropriate field office only.”
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From s at ctrlc.hu  Thu Oct  1 15:16:52 2015
From: s at ctrlc.hu (stef)
Date: Fri, 2 Oct 2015 00:16:52 +0200
Subject: freedom.press, also the firstlook/intercept...
In-Reply-To: <560DAB81.7060800@pilobilus.net>
References: <20150930200213.GE13534@ctrlc.hu> <560DAB81.7060800@pilobilus.net>
Message-ID: <20151001221652.GM13534@ctrlc.hu>

On Thu, Oct 01, 2015 at 05:54:09PM -0400, Steve Kinney wrote:
> The network itself is the trap, with or without javascript, with
> or without obfuscation via TOR or etc.  I would be much more
> concerned with the handling of those downloaded files on the local
> machine - if a trap is suspected, zero day exploits hidden in the
> files should be assumed.

yes, that's why the "zip" should also be signed with some widely accepted pgp
key.

-- 
otr fp: https://www.ctrlc.hu/~stef/otr.txt




From zen at freedbms.net  Thu Oct  1 17:58:25 2015
From: zen at freedbms.net (Zenaan Harkness)
Date: Fri, 2 Oct 2015 00:58:25 +0000
Subject: Snowden on the Twitters
In-Reply-To: <560D76E2.40601@riseup.net>
References: <CAD2Ti2-ZiZDAR_mLFAQqcgLVyyvrv2o2Kx3ri+jBK3o7aUF6QA@mail.gmail.com>
 <20150930062542.GA2618@sivokote.iziade.m$>
 <CD8AB160-F010-43C7-8A05-091C48DE043D@openmailbox.org>
 <20150930115346.GD2618@sivokote.iziade.m$>
 <560C3A26.4010709@openmailbox.org>
 <20151001053452.GA2752@sivokote.iziade.m$>
 <560CD686.8010501@openmailbox.org>
 <560ce15f.0212370a.97fe1.ffffa6e2@mx.google.com>
 <20151001080545.GC2752@sivokote.iziade.m$>
 <560d6925.4bc28c0a.c22a.fffff9a4@mx.google.com>
 <560D76E2.40601@riseup.net>
Message-ID: <CAOsGNSS5+HA4r3_2pmxebKx65Qks6c94xLiobwbovE+t794O+w@mail.gmail.com>

On 10/1/15, Razer <Rayzer at riseup.net> wrote:
> On 10/01/2015 10:16 AM, Juan wrote:
>> True. We should blow up the pentagon.
>
> Or at least virtually surround it, chant om, and it will rise, turn
> purple, and all the evil emanations will flee...
>
> Imagine. If the MPs had actually allowed the crowd to do that in 1967,
> how different the world would be today.
>
> (RR extracts tongue from cheek and spits in the general direction of the
> beltway...)

No, please no! You sacrifice your humour at the peril of .. of ... oh
fuck it, I can't even think of a wanna be funny retort. It's just too
sad...




From alfiej at fastmail.fm  Thu Oct  1 08:04:58 2015
From: alfiej at fastmail.fm (Alfie John)
Date: Fri, 02 Oct 2015 01:04:58 +1000
Subject: CloudFlare Keyless SSL WAS Re: Snowden on the Twitters
In-Reply-To: <20151001144318.GK2752@sivokote.iziade.m$>
References: <CAKtE3zdQCroEFu6G5e4M9RqpvaEHNSvoRp75iurxzqeXVfDQ8Q@mail.gmail.com>
 <1443646338.695158.397968585.3B6987FA@webmail.messagingengine.com>
 <CAKtE3zda+o65oJum2-9EYsFVv5npnSesfCO3Zz0F7mT6xnjXgA@mail.gmail.com>
 <1443707313.233533.398620313.6588E9F5@webmail.messagingengine.com>
 <20151001144318.GK2752@sivokote.iziade.m$>
Message-ID: <1443711898.252353.398701225.632008B3@webmail.messagingengine.com>

On Fri, Oct 2, 2015, at 12:43 AM, Georgi Guninski wrote:
> On Thu, Oct 01, 2015 at 11:48:33PM +1000, Alfie John wrote:
> > Front page of HN:
> > 
> >   https://hacks.mozilla.org/2015/09/subresource-integrity-in-firefox-43/
> >
> 
> Lol, I don't trust neither mozilla nor google (in practice owner of the
> former).
> 
> Before trying to secure ``mobile code'', they should _try_ to secure the
> platform (maybe they call it kernel) on which malware runs.
> 
> Ever bothered to check the rates at which mozilla updates occur?
> 
> Ever read a mozilla security advisory?
> (usually it essentially reads "multiple parties disclosed multiple
> vulnerabilities, check HIDDEN BUGZILLA/PRIVATE-CVE)

If that's the case, how do you Internet?

Alfie

-- 
  Alfie John
  alfiej at fastmail.fm




From cyberkiller8 at gmail.com  Fri Oct  2 00:04:13 2015
From: cyberkiller8 at gmail.com (=?UTF-8?Q?=c5=81ukasz_'Cyber_Killer'_Korpalski?=)
Date: Fri, 2 Oct 2015 09:04:13 +0200
Subject: tox
In-Reply-To: <1443451636.6909.3.camel@europa>
References: <56070435.ea17370a.da260.30f2@mx.google.com>
 <4458660.QtbdDQHESL@lapuntu>
 <21757047-6E64-49EF-95BF-C09EC1DC92A8@cathalgarvey.me>
 <1703774.rHyHihue8Y@lapuntu> <1443451636.6909.3.camel@europa>
Message-ID: <560E2C6D.5080807@gmail.com>

W dniu 28.09.2015 o 16:47, Cathal Garvey pisze:
> In fact, the difficulty getting people to click just that one button to
> use Jitsi Meet may be what finally broke my spirit and made me realise
> that users are quite often too stupid to successfully use *anything* and
> that only brand reputation makes them persevere to use shit like Skype.
> 

My thoughts exactly. 20 years ago people could learn to use MS-DOS, but
today clicking a colorful, graphical, button is "too difficult".

Anything that's new/different and isn't already used by millions of
other sheep is instantly seen as evil, difficult and not necessary. What
happened to curiosity, to wanting to learn new stuff?

The universe is still winning, the current wave of idiots is too much :-P.

-- 
Łukasz "Cyber Killer" Korpalski

mail: cyberkiller8 at gmail.com
xmpp: cyber_killer at jabster.pl
site: http://website.cybkil.cu.cc
gpgkey: 0x72511999 @ hkp://keys.gnupg.net

//When replying to my e-mail, kindly please
//write your message below the quoted text.

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From guninski at guninski.com  Thu Oct  1 23:08:18 2015
From: guninski at guninski.com (Georgi Guninski)
Date: Fri, 2 Oct 2015 09:08:18 +0300
Subject: What is this "Weird garbled Windows 7 update"?
Message-ID: <20151002060818.GB2533@sivokote.iziade.m$>

Looks like microsoft are owned.

http://www.theregister.co.uk/2015/09/30/windows_update_glitch/
----
Windows 7 users were left scratching their heads on Wednesday when a
mysterious garbled patch appeared in Windows Update, origins unknown.
...
Its description mostly contained garbled text. Links for more
information, help, and support were filled in with gibberish URLs with
".gov," ".mil," and ".edu" domains.
...
The Register poked Microsoft about the issue, and a spokesman told us:
"We incorrectly published a test update and are in the process of
removing it."
----


"test update" containing .gov,.mil and .edu URLs, lol...




From Rayzer at riseup.net  Fri Oct  2 09:10:05 2015
From: Rayzer at riseup.net (Razer)
Date: Fri, 2 Oct 2015 09:10:05 -0700
Subject: Snowden on the Twitters
In-Reply-To: <3175879.Vcl8GujSUn@lapuntu>
References: <CD8AB160-F010-43C7-8A05-091C48DE043D@openmailbox.org>
 <2441525.bMgG3HtFU5@lapuntu> <560E8D66.8030403@pilobilus.net>
 <3175879.Vcl8GujSUn@lapuntu>
Message-ID: <560EAC5D.5030306@riseup.net>



On 10/02/2015 07:13 AM, rysiek wrote:
> Regardless, we can *easily* rise the cost of it. And if we can, we should.

+1

One encrypted lulzcat attached to be stored by the NSA for 'perpetuity'!

Ps. There's a very special message for Michael Hayden as well

RR

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From Rayzer at riseup.net  Fri Oct  2 09:16:53 2015
From: Rayzer at riseup.net (Razer)
Date: Fri, 2 Oct 2015 09:16:53 -0700
Subject: Snowden on the Twitters
In-Reply-To: <1459598.CCgg234MoK@lapuntu>
References: <CAD2Ti2-ZiZDAR_mLFAQqcgLVyyvrv2o2Kx3ri+jBK3o7aUF6QA@mail.gmail.com>
 <560ce15f.0212370a.97fe1.ffffa6e2@mx.google.com>
 <560D4B5F.3010305@riseup.net> <1459598.CCgg234MoK@lapuntu>
Message-ID: <560EADF5.80207@riseup.net>



On 10/02/2015 03:56 AM, rysiek wrote:
> Dnia czwartek, 1 października 2015 08:03:59 Razer pisze:
>> On 10/01/2015 12:36 AM, Juan wrote:
>>> On Thu, 01 Oct 2015 07:45:26 +0100
>>>
>>> oshwm <oshwm at openmailbox.org> wrote:
>>>> " All I wanted was for the public to be able to have a say in how they
>>>> are governed.">> 
>>> 	snowden can't be THAT stupid...?
>> He believe in the 'system'.
>>
>> RR
>>
>> “Any movement that seeks social justice through political involvement
>> and attempting to hold public officials democratically accountable is
>> doomed to failure. The only real way to achieve social justice is by
>> bypassing the state, treating it as irrelevant, and building the kind of
>> society we want without the government’s permission.”
> Yo dawg, I herd yo don't liek the state, so yo should build one of your own 
> for others not to liek.
>

So by extension if I'm in a 'stateless' state everyone will luv me?

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From Rayzer at riseup.net  Fri Oct  2 09:53:21 2015
From: Rayzer at riseup.net (Razer)
Date: Fri, 2 Oct 2015 09:53:21 -0700
Subject: What is this "Weird garbled Windows 7 update"?
In-Reply-To: <20151002060818.GB2533@sivokote.iziade.m$>
References: <20151002060818.GB2533@sivokote.iziade.m$>
Message-ID: <560EB681.8050008@riseup.net>

Suppose it's a way to mass-distribute a dead 'canary', offed by someone
in the company who knows something the company wasn't willing to kill
it's 'canary' over?

Just rumormongering...

RR



On 10/01/2015 11:08 PM, Georgi Guninski wrote:
> Looks like microsoft are owned.
>
> http://www.theregister.co.uk/2015/09/30/windows_update_glitch/
> ----
> Windows 7 users were left scratching their heads on Wednesday when a
> mysterious garbled patch appeared in Windows Update, origins unknown.
> ...
> Its description mostly contained garbled text. Links for more
> information, help, and support were filled in with gibberish URLs with
> ".gov," ".mil," and ".edu" domains.
> ...
> The Register poked Microsoft about the issue, and a spokesman told us:
> "We incorrectly published a test update and are in the process of
> removing it."
> ----
>
>
> "test update" containing .gov,.mil and .edu URLs, lol...
>
>


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From admin at pilobilus.net  Fri Oct  2 06:57:58 2015
From: admin at pilobilus.net (Steve Kinney)
Date: Fri, 2 Oct 2015 09:57:58 -0400
Subject: Snowden on the Twitters
In-Reply-To: <2441525.bMgG3HtFU5@lapuntu>
References: <CD8AB160-F010-43C7-8A05-091C48DE043D@openmailbox.org>
 <20151001090557.GE2752@sivokote.iziade.m$>
 <E1ZhbwZ-0001k5-Tt@elasmtp-mealy.atl.sa.earthlink.net>
 <2441525.bMgG3HtFU5@lapuntu>
Message-ID: <560E8D66.8030403@pilobilus.net>

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1

On 10/02/2015 06:52 AM, rysiek wrote:
> Dnia czwartek, 1 października 2015 07:23:28 John Young pisze:


>> HTTPS has become a fetish, maybe always was. It serves as an 
>> end point fig leaf,
> 
> And yet it rises the cost of spying. It's not enough to be 
> passive listener, one has to become active and MITMing. 
> Possible? Yes. More costly? Definitely.
> 
> Consider: http://cryptome.org/2013/09/cpunks-crypto.htm

The cost also depends on the scope of targeted communications:
Leaked NSA docs indicate that persistent full take collection and
retention against /visitors/ to specified websites is initiated
automatically.  MITM against the servers in question, for
surveillance AND content modification in transit against some
specified end users, is well within the budgets and tech
capabilities of the FVEYE States.


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From guninski at guninski.com  Fri Oct  2 00:31:11 2015
From: guninski at guninski.com (Georgi Guninski)
Date: Fri, 2 Oct 2015 10:31:11 +0300
Subject: Allegedly Volkswagen cheated to both governments and lusers
In-Reply-To: <725470833.3914652.1443723188837.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com>
References: <20150929060555.GA2518@sivokote.iziade.m$>
 <725470833.3914652.1443723188837.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <20151002073111.GC2533@sivokote.iziade.m$>

On Thu, Oct 01, 2015 at 06:13:08PM +0000, jim bell wrote:
> There probably isn't any specific "defeat device".  These days, probably all fuel engines are controlled by complex computer programs, that take various inputs (ambient temperature, ambient air pressure, engine temperature, and perhaps others) and make complicated adjustments in inputs to the engine, in order to make the engine run better in various ways.  In other words, the "defeat device" is in the software, not the hardware.               Jim bell

I read it is known that the software detected via sensors that the car
is in a lab (almost sure on a stand) and switched to "clean mode" (check
wikipedia and their sources).

According to local news Mercedes also cheated, but polluted less.




From jya at pipeline.com  Fri Oct  2 07:35:02 2015
From: jya at pipeline.com (John Young)
Date: Fri, 02 Oct 2015 10:35:02 -0400
Subject: Snowden on the Twitters
In-Reply-To: <560E8D66.8030403@pilobilus.net>
References: <CD8AB160-F010-43C7-8A05-091C48DE043D@openmailbox.org>
 <20151001090557.GE2752@sivokote.iziade.m$>
 <E1ZhbwZ-0001k5-Tt@elasmtp-mealy.atl.sa.earthlink.net>
 <2441525.bMgG3HtFU5@lapuntu> <560E8D66.8030403@pilobilus.net>
Message-ID: <E1Zi1Q1-0005SC-3q@elasmtp-curtail.atl.sa.earthlink.net>

Common spy tradecraft to exploit most popular and trusted comsec,
bemoan going dark, wheedle more funding, accuse blood on hands
of traitors, announce soothing adjustments to correct over-reach,
reward those who find bugs and disclose errors by zealous insiders,
issue presidential executive orders, hold hearings, sick IGs onto
the unfortunate, rejiggle court and congressional oversight, appoint
replacement leaders, quietly fund researchers and NGOs to air
dirty laundry, solicit views of outside experts, launch campaigns
to falsely confess the truth of accusations and promise to clean
up the filth of national security predation, contamination, waste and profit,
bring on board as consultants or specially skilled to aid the inept
insiders who are overworked, underpaid, under-appreciated,
excuse those who leave the inside to reap fabulous rewards on
the outside, enhance the devilish torment of FOIA compliance.
hire ever smarter and sleazier press representatives from among
those most vocal in opposition but ready for making a deal either
directly or through speaking, teaching an director-ship gigs funded
by benefactors of official contract and tax benefit largesse.

Comsec and crypto cult endures these ups and downs, mostly
dirty, craven, deceptive, unscrupulous, duplicitous, sanctimonious,
secretive, paranoid, greedy, privileged -- come on, dear public, just
see they are evil on your behalf and neither they or the public would
have it any other way.

Security fig leafs -- bibles, cathedrals, forts, laws of war, free
markets, democracies, encryption --  are obligatory to pretend the
devil is not our deity. HTTPS is as believable and lucrative as
indulgences of the Middle Ages, or sickle and hammer, cross,
crescent, fit bit, smart cities.

At 09:57 AM 10/2/2015, you wrote:
>-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
>Hash: SHA1
>
>On 10/02/2015 06:52 AM, rysiek wrote:
> > Dnia czwartek, 1 października 2015 07:23:28 John Young pisze:
>
>
> >> HTTPS has become a fetish, maybe always was. It serves as an
> >> end point fig leaf,
> >
> > And yet it rises the cost of spying. It's not enough to be
> > passive listener, one has to become active and MITMing.
> > Possible? Yes. More costly? Definitely.
> >
> > Consider: http://cryptome.org/2013/09/cpunks-crypto.htm
>
>The cost also depends on the scope of targeted communications:
>Leaked NSA docs indicate that persistent full take collection and
>retention against /visitors/ to specified websites is initiated
>automatically.  MITM against the servers in question, for
>surveillance AND content modification in transit against some
>specified end users, is well within the budgets and tech
>capabilities of the FVEYE States.
>
>
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From drwho at virtadpt.net  Fri Oct  2 11:27:45 2015
From: drwho at virtadpt.net (The Doctor)
Date: Fri, 2 Oct 2015 11:27:45 -0700
Subject: Snowden on the Twitters
In-Reply-To: <1459598.CCgg234MoK@lapuntu>
References: <CAD2Ti2-ZiZDAR_mLFAQqcgLVyyvrv2o2Kx3ri+jBK3o7aUF6QA@mail.gmail.com>
 <560ce15f.0212370a.97fe1.ffffa6e2@mx.google.com>
 <560D4B5F.3010305@riseup.net> <1459598.CCgg234MoK@lapuntu>
Message-ID: <20151002112745.c29b394663f8faa11c0758a4@virtadpt.net>

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA512

On Fri, 02 Oct 2015 12:56:03 +0200
rysiek <rysiek at hackerspace.pl> wrote:

> Yo dawg, I herd yo don't liek the state, so yo should build one of your own 
> for others not to liek.

"All governments suffer a recurring problem: Power attracts pathological 
personalities.  It is not that power corrupts but that it is magnetic to 
the corruptible."
        --Frank Herbert, _Chapterhouse Dune_
- -- 
The Doctor [412/724/301/703/415] [ZS]

PGP: 0x807B17C1 / 7960 1CDC 85C9 0B63 8D9F  DD89 3BD8 FF2B 807B 17C1
WWW: https://drwho.virtadpt.net/

"Prophecies have a nasty way of fulfilling themselves if you let them."

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From guninski at guninski.com  Fri Oct  2 01:58:41 2015
From: guninski at guninski.com (Georgi Guninski)
Date: Fri, 2 Oct 2015 11:58:41 +0300
Subject: freedom.press, also the firstlook/intercept...
In-Reply-To: <20151001220923.A0DFC6801A8@frontend2.nyi.internal>
References: <20150930200213.GE13534@ctrlc.hu> <560DAB81.7060800@pilobilus.net>
 <20151001220923.A0DFC6801A8@frontend2.nyi.internal>
Message-ID: <20151002085841.GD2533@sivokote.iziade.m$>

On Thu, Oct 01, 2015 at 03:09:40PM -0700, Shelley wrote:
> 
> Agree with both sentiments, but - who the hell opens documents of
> dubious origin on a networked machine?  Even on an airgapped
> machine, I still use a VM...
>

Agree about VM, it adds another layer of protection.

VMs have bugs too, as history shows.

btw, does rowhammer escape VM? (appears to me yes).




From rysiek at hackerspace.pl  Fri Oct  2 03:52:30 2015
From: rysiek at hackerspace.pl (rysiek)
Date: Fri, 02 Oct 2015 12:52:30 +0200
Subject: Snowden on the Twitters
In-Reply-To: <E1ZhbwZ-0001k5-Tt@elasmtp-mealy.atl.sa.earthlink.net>
References: <CD8AB160-F010-43C7-8A05-091C48DE043D@openmailbox.org>
 <20151001090557.GE2752@sivokote.iziade.m$>
 <E1ZhbwZ-0001k5-Tt@elasmtp-mealy.atl.sa.earthlink.net>
Message-ID: <2441525.bMgG3HtFU5@lapuntu>

Dnia czwartek, 1 października 2015 07:23:28 John Young pisze:
> >btw, I accessed your link over httpS and it serves http, the
> >implications of which are clear. From the source:
> >
> ><IMG WIDTH="250" HEIGHT="75" SRC="http://cryptome.org/cryptome-01.jpg">
> 
> HTTPS has become a fetish, maybe always was. It serves as an end
> point fig leaf,

And yet it rises the cost of spying. It's not enough to be passive listener, 
one has to become active and MITMing. Possible? Yes. More costly? Definitely.

Consider:
http://cryptome.org/2013/09/cpunks-crypto.htm

-- 
Pozdrawiam,
Michał "rysiek" Woźniak

Zmieniam klucz GPG :: http://rys.io/pl/147
GPG Key Transition :: http://rys.io/en/147
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From rysiek at hackerspace.pl  Fri Oct  2 03:56:03 2015
From: rysiek at hackerspace.pl (rysiek)
Date: Fri, 02 Oct 2015 12:56:03 +0200
Subject: Snowden on the Twitters
In-Reply-To: <560D4B5F.3010305@riseup.net>
References: <CAD2Ti2-ZiZDAR_mLFAQqcgLVyyvrv2o2Kx3ri+jBK3o7aUF6QA@mail.gmail.com>
 <560ce15f.0212370a.97fe1.ffffa6e2@mx.google.com>
 <560D4B5F.3010305@riseup.net>
Message-ID: <1459598.CCgg234MoK@lapuntu>

Dnia czwartek, 1 października 2015 08:03:59 Razer pisze:
> On 10/01/2015 12:36 AM, Juan wrote:
> > On Thu, 01 Oct 2015 07:45:26 +0100
> > 
> > oshwm <oshwm at openmailbox.org> wrote:
> >> " All I wanted was for the public to be able to have a say in how they
> >> are governed.">> 
> > 	snowden can't be THAT stupid...?
> 
> He believe in the 'system'.
> 
> RR
> 
> “Any movement that seeks social justice through political involvement
> and attempting to hold public officials democratically accountable is
> doomed to failure. The only real way to achieve social justice is by
> bypassing the state, treating it as irrelevant, and building the kind of
> society we want without the government’s permission.”

Yo dawg, I herd yo don't liek the state, so yo should build one of your own 
for others not to liek.

-- 
Pozdrawiam,
Michał "rysiek" Woźniak

Zmieniam klucz GPG :: http://rys.io/pl/147
GPG Key Transition :: http://rys.io/en/147
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From eugen at leitl.org  Fri Oct  2 06:18:04 2015
From: eugen at leitl.org (Eugen Leitl)
Date: Fri, 2 Oct 2015 13:18:04 +0000
Subject: Qubes 3.0 out
Message-ID: <20151002131804.GQ21947@leitl.org>


http://blog.invisiblethings.org/2015/10/01/qubes-30.html

Qubes 3.0

Oct 1, 2015 • Joanna Rutkowska

About 5 months after the initial release of Qubes 3.0-rc1, we're now
releasing the final 3.0 today!

Let me quickly recap the main "killer features" of Qubes OS 3.0 compared to
the Release 2:

Qubes is now based on what we call Hypervisor Abstraction Layer (HAL), which
decouples Qubes logic from the underlying hypervisor. This will allow us to
easily switch the underlying hypervisors in the near future, perhaps even
during the installation time, depending on the user needs (think tradeoffs
between hardware compatibility and performance vs. security properties
desired, such as e.g. reduction of covert channels between VMs, which might
be of importance to some users). More philosophically-wise, this is a nice
manifestation of how Qubes OS is really "not yet another virtualization
system", but rather: a user of a virtualization system (such as Xen).

We upgraded from Xen 4.1 to Xen 4.4 (now that was really easy thanks to HAL),
which allowed for: 1) better hardware compatibility (e.g. UEFI coming soon in
3.1), 2) better performance (e.g. via Xen's libvchan that replaced our
vchan). Also, new Qubes qrexec framework that has optimized performance for
inter-VM services.

We introduced officially supported Debian templates.

And finally: we integrated Whonix templates, which optimize Tor workflows for
Qubes.

As explained in our Release Cycle Documentation (something we finally created
and been polishing through this 3.0 branch development), there is almost no
new features in 3.0 compared to 3.0-rc1, essentially only bugfixes,
intermixed with a few minor improvements.

But, while the 3.0 branch was "maturing", and getting bugfixes merged, most
of our work has been focused on the 3.1 branch, which is adding a bunch of
exciting new features, as indicated on our high-level roadmap, specifically:

UEFI support (see this ticket for more info and test images).

Live USB edition (preview for which we already released earlier this summer,
now it will get merged into the master branch for 3.1)

Management/pre-configuration stack: The Big Killer Feature of the upcoming
3.1 release, which will make it easy to provide out of the box configurations
for things such as: out of the box Whonix/Tor, or Split GPG, or default USB
sandboxing VM, which currently the user must do manually.

We're planning to release the first candidate for 3.1 as early as the end of
October, actually.

But development of any serious project is not just adding new features,
although that's admittedly the most exciting thing for any developer to do.
In R3 we have finally started implementing this golden thought, and the first
tangible outcome of this change of attitude is the automated testing
framework which we have been using for all the releases in this 3.0 branch
already. We hope this results in much more polished, stable code.

Other things we've started to be increasingly prioritizing recently, and only
plan to intensify in the coming year are: 1) making Qubes more accessible to
people (think easier to get hardware that can run Qubes OS), and 2) easier to
use (better UX and UI). I think this is also pretty exciting, actually.

As previously announced earlier this summer, we have decided to dedicate this
release of Qubes OS to the memory of Caspar Bowden:

Caspar's dedication screenshot

Caspar has been a proud user, supporter, and advocate for Qubes OS, and also
a friend. I think he would have liked that dedication.

The Qubes 3.0 ISO can be downloaded from here.

We have also released another scheduled Qubes Canary today.

I would like to thank all the people who have contributed to this huge effort
of creating a new "reasonably secure" desktop OS. I believe we're making
together an important and meaningful thing here. Let's keep this going!




From dal at riseup.net  Fri Oct  2 12:09:14 2015
From: dal at riseup.net (Douglas Lucas)
Date: Fri, 2 Oct 2015 14:09:14 -0500
Subject: Snowden on the Twitters
In-Reply-To: <1459598.CCgg234MoK@lapuntu>
References: <CAD2Ti2-ZiZDAR_mLFAQqcgLVyyvrv2o2Kx3ri+jBK3o7aUF6QA@mail.gmail.com>
 <560ce15f.0212370a.97fe1.ffffa6e2@mx.google.com>
 <560D4B5F.3010305@riseup.net> <1459598.CCgg234MoK@lapuntu>
Message-ID: <560ED65A.1000408@riseup.net>



On 10/02/2015 05:56 AM, rysiek wrote:
> Dnia czwartek, 1 października 2015 08:03:59 Razer pisze:
>> On 10/01/2015 12:36 AM, Juan wrote:
>>> On Thu, 01 Oct 2015 07:45:26 +0100
>>> 
>>> oshwm <oshwm at openmailbox.org> wrote:
>>>> " All I wanted was for the public to be able to have a say in
>>>> how they are governed.">>
>>> snowden can't be THAT stupid...?
>> 
>> He believe in the 'system'.
>> 
>> RR
>> 
>> “Any movement that seeks social justice through political
>> involvement and attempting to hold public officials
>> democratically accountable is doomed to failure. The only real
>> way to achieve social justice is by bypassing the state, treating
>> it as irrelevant, and building the kind of society we want
>> without the government’s permission.”
> 
> Yo dawg, I herd yo don't liek the state, so yo should build one of
> your own for others not to liek.
> 

Some want to end the state, and others want to be statesmen. Lately
WikiLeaks has been retweeting a picture of Jimmy Carter (I suppose
because the addition of an image is supposed to be extra convincing)
with a quotation from the former president to the effect that he
didn't deplore Cablegate. It is annoying that US presidents are treated
as people whose praise should be sought, along the lines of
"If Jimmy Carter doesn't agree with it, it's not my revolution." I
keep hoping someone will make me artwork of a black bloc Jimmy Carter,
all decked out like a Zapatista and ready to rumble. Because US
presidents aren't amplified enough; we all need to give them even
bigger platforms (sarcasm). Radicals for Jimmy Carter! Radicals for
Pierre Omidyar! Radicals for...




From shelley at misanthropia.org  Fri Oct  2 15:01:10 2015
From: shelley at misanthropia.org (Shelley)
Date: Fri, 02 Oct 2015 15:01:10 -0700
Subject: freedom.press, also the firstlook/intercept...
In-Reply-To: <CAHWD2rKqR0HfWs9s+wJG-mshadO26mZ8XOte2fzPTEFAStbMQg@mail.gmail.com>
References: <20150930200213.GE13534@ctrlc.hu> <560DAB81.7060800@pilobilus.net>
 <20151001220923.A0DFC6801A8@frontend2.nyi.internal>
 <20151002085841.GD2533@sivokote.iziade.m$>
 <CAHWD2rKqR0HfWs9s+wJG-mshadO26mZ8XOte2fzPTEFAStbMQg@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <20151002220054.9D6006801D2@frontend2.nyi.internal>

[Random snipping ahead to reply inline while on my mobile, apologies]

On October 2, 2015 7:35:19 AM Lodewijk andré de la porte <l at odewijk.nl> wrote:

[Georgi]> btw, does rowhammer escape VM? (appears to me yes).

I think it does, but I've not done enough testing on my own to be sure.


> You know, a webpage is supposed to be in a VM too.

Yep, agreed.  I meant that I also use VM on my crappy airgapped box, even 
though it doesn't matter as much as my other boxes of importance or 
networked laptops etc. VM should be pretty standard security fare, and yet 
nothing is 100% secure.  We do what we can, adding layers so that it may 
slow down any threats.  There is no way to be absolutely secure, it's a sad 
fact of modern life. But we don't have to make it easy for the bastards, 
you know?


[Snip]

> Which relates as to why I lost a lot of personal photo's; I didn't use the
> cloud backup feature. Now nobody has my pictures, except maybe whomever
> stole my phone* =(

Automated TiBU + weekly manual backups of media to external drive?  That's 
what I do; couldn't pay me to use a cloud backup.  Same as with people 
complaining about the first Blackphone not having access to GAPPs/ Google 
Play (...seriously?), do u even sideload bro?  Do it regularly when you're 
managing your other data backups, it's quick and painless after the initial 
setup.


> Using one of those file hosting sites provides a greater level of
> convenience. Perhaps so much greater that without that level of convenience
> it would hardly be possible at all.

I'm surprised to hear that come from you.  I've never used a cloud backup 
and the most I've ever lost is a day or two's worth of data/ media.  I have 
redundant backups.  It's not difficult (it truly isn't, I'm not trying to 
be snotty.)

>The consumers don't care to invest in
> security very much, in fact, hardly at all.

Do you mean the same lusers who broadcast the fact that they're on vacation 
all over Failbook, post photos with GPS enabled and are then surprised when 
their home is burglarized?


> * full disk crypto is not a thing in androidland ;(

Sadly, it's not a "thing" anywhere right now.  Not when EC has been 
intentionally weakened, etc.  Hell, even if crApple did have true full disc 
encryption, I wouldn't use their closed source crapware.


> tl;dr: javascript could be fine if we'd have secure software - as it is
> HTML/CSS/images/videos/etc are all also dangerous. Top level security seems
> (and often is) useless - therefore we don't really have it (even when we'd
> like it so very much) unless we keep ourselves from essential features.

"Essential" is very much a subjective term.  I don't mind most of my web 
browsing experience looking like plaintext (in fact, I much prefer it.)  
However, I understand most people do not want to use the web in that way.  
We all make concessions we consider acceptable, sacrificing 
privacy/security for convenience.  I'm guilty of it, too.  Anyone with a 
smartphone and a credit/debit card is as well.

-S





From rysiek at hackerspace.pl  Fri Oct  2 07:13:20 2015
From: rysiek at hackerspace.pl (rysiek)
Date: Fri, 02 Oct 2015 16:13:20 +0200
Subject: Snowden on the Twitters
In-Reply-To: <560E8D66.8030403@pilobilus.net>
References: <CD8AB160-F010-43C7-8A05-091C48DE043D@openmailbox.org>
 <2441525.bMgG3HtFU5@lapuntu> <560E8D66.8030403@pilobilus.net>
Message-ID: <3175879.Vcl8GujSUn@lapuntu>

Dnia piątek, 2 października 2015 09:57:58 Steve Kinney pisze:
> On 10/02/2015 06:52 AM, rysiek wrote:
> > Dnia czwartek, 1 października 2015 07:23:28 John Young pisze:
> >> HTTPS has become a fetish, maybe always was. It serves as an
> >> end point fig leaf,
> > 
> > And yet it rises the cost of spying. It's not enough to be
> > passive listener, one has to become active and MITMing.
> > Possible? Yes. More costly? Definitely.
> > 
> > Consider: http://cryptome.org/2013/09/cpunks-crypto.htm

Apologies, wrong link -- I meant this:
http://smarimccarthy.is/blog/2014/05/28/engineering-our-way-out-of-fascism/

-_-;

> The cost also depends on the scope of targeted communications:
> Leaked NSA docs indicate that persistent full take collection and
> retention against /visitors/ to specified websites is initiated
> automatically.  MITM against the servers in question, for
> surveillance AND content modification in transit against some
> specified end users, is well within the budgets and tech
> capabilities of the FVEYE States.

Regardless, we can *easily* rise the cost of it. And if we can, we should.

-- 
Pozdrawiam,
Michał "rysiek" Woźniak

Zmieniam klucz GPG :: http://rys.io/pl/147
GPG Key Transition :: http://rys.io/en/147
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From l at odewijk.nl  Fri Oct  2 07:14:26 2015
From: l at odewijk.nl (=?UTF-8?Q?Lodewijk_andr=C3=A9_de_la_porte?=)
Date: Fri, 2 Oct 2015 16:14:26 +0200
Subject: What is this "Weird garbled Windows 7 update"?
In-Reply-To: <20151002060818.GB2533@sivokote.iziade.m$>
References: <20151002060818.GB2533@sivokote.iziade.m$>
Message-ID: <CAHWD2rJPx5X4ypX=4isqjRXhMuFSn+30cSC-F4P1bnzdpLvOJw@mail.gmail.com>

Maybe not owned, but at least without accidentally-press-publish protection.

(if it's this easy to mispublish a test update, how hard would it be for an
employee to publish an exploit?)
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From l at odewijk.nl  Fri Oct  2 07:28:23 2015
From: l at odewijk.nl (=?UTF-8?Q?Lodewijk_andr=C3=A9_de_la_porte?=)
Date: Fri, 2 Oct 2015 16:28:23 +0200
Subject: freedom.press, also the firstlook/intercept...
In-Reply-To: <20151002085841.GD2533@sivokote.iziade.m$>
References: <20150930200213.GE13534@ctrlc.hu> <560DAB81.7060800@pilobilus.net>
 <20151001220923.A0DFC6801A8@frontend2.nyi.internal>
 <20151002085841.GD2533@sivokote.iziade.m$>
Message-ID: <CAHWD2rKqR0HfWs9s+wJG-mshadO26mZ8XOte2fzPTEFAStbMQg@mail.gmail.com>

2015-10-02 10:58 GMT+02:00 Georgi Guninski <guninski at guninski.com>:

> On Thu, Oct 01, 2015 at 03:09:40PM -0700, Shelley wrote:
> >
> > Agree with both sentiments, but - who the hell opens documents of
> > dubious origin on a networked machine?  Even on an airgapped
> > machine, I still use a VM...
> >
>
> Agree about VM, it adds another layer of protection.
>
> VMs have bugs too, as history shows.
>
> btw, does rowhammer escape VM? (appears to me yes).


You know, a webpage is supposed to be in a VM too.


With HTML growing so big and so fast it's very hard to know it's secure.
But I see little reason as to why Javascript is the baddest boy on the
block. iPhones Got wrecked by a png rendering library. Interpreting a
programming language is not *that* different from interpreting an image.
Even less different from interpreting HTML/CSS. If you would care for a
secure instead of a fast Javascript interpreter, well, too bad because
nobody's making a secure one. Hah.

Which relates as to why I lost a lot of personal photo's; I didn't use the
cloud backup feature. Now nobody has my pictures, except maybe whomever
stole my phone* =(

Using one of those file hosting sites provides a greater level of
convenience. Perhaps so much greater that without that level of convenience
it would hardly be possible at all. The consumers don't care to invest in
security very much, in fact, hardly at all. Especially when all you're
securing against sounds like more paranoia - which is what an
invisible-seems-like-its-not-even-there organization will always seem like.
(remember, the NSA lacks the field agents to even be anywhere, and I never
see GCHQ agents either)

* full disk crypto is not a thing in androidland ;(


tl;dr: javascript could be fine if we'd have secure software - as it is
HTML/CSS/images/videos/etc are all also dangerous. Top level security seems
(and often is) useless - therefore we don't really have it (even when we'd
like it so very much) unless we keep ourselves from essential features.
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From rysiek at hackerspace.pl  Fri Oct  2 07:41:40 2015
From: rysiek at hackerspace.pl (rysiek)
Date: Fri, 02 Oct 2015 16:41:40 +0200
Subject: freedom.press, also the firstlook/intercept...
In-Reply-To: <CAHWD2rKqR0HfWs9s+wJG-mshadO26mZ8XOte2fzPTEFAStbMQg@mail.gmail.com>
References: <20150930200213.GE13534@ctrlc.hu>
 <20151002085841.GD2533@sivokote.iziade.m$>
 <CAHWD2rKqR0HfWs9s+wJG-mshadO26mZ8XOte2fzPTEFAStbMQg@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <2010765.ZsblZoGThe@lapuntu>

Dnia piątek, 2 października 2015 16:28:23 Lodewijk andré de la porte pisze:
> tl;dr: javascript could be fine if we'd have secure software

Or, in other words, "if we were secure, we would be secure". Can't say I 
disagree.

-- 
Pozdrawiam,
Michał "rysiek" Woźniak

Zmieniam klucz GPG :: http://rys.io/pl/147
GPG Key Transition :: http://rys.io/en/147
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From juan.g71 at gmail.com  Fri Oct  2 13:00:42 2015
From: juan.g71 at gmail.com (Juan)
Date: Fri, 2 Oct 2015 17:00:42 -0300
Subject: Snowden on the Twitters
In-Reply-To: <8253018.hPbHOlQF0S@lapuntu>
References: <CAD2Ti2-ZiZDAR_mLFAQqcgLVyyvrv2o2Kx3ri+jBK3o7aUF6QA@mail.gmail.com>
 <1459598.CCgg234MoK@lapuntu> <560EADF5.80207@riseup.net>
 <8253018.hPbHOlQF0S@lapuntu>
Message-ID: <560ee12e.03c98c0a.63f6c.ffffda2e@mx.google.com>

On Fri, 02 Oct 2015 18:59:29 +0200
rysiek <rysiek at hackerspace.pl> wrote:


 >> 
 >> “Any movement that seeks social justice through political
 >> involvement and attempting to hold public officials
 >> democratically accountable is doomed to failure. The only real
 >> way to achieve social justice is by bypassing the state,
 >> treating it as irrelevant, and building the kind of society we
 >> want without the government’s permission.”
 
 > Yo dawg, I herd yo don't liek the state, so yo should build one
 > of your own

	
	It says "building the kind of society" - *society*, not the
	state. Two different things. 



> My point was, rather, that ultimately this:
> "bypassing the state (...) and building the kind of society we want
> without the government's permission"
> 
> ...often ends up being this:
> "bypassing the *current* state (...) and building the kind of society
> we want without the *current* governments' permission, so that we can
> become the government that others need permission of"


	Well, that may happen although I don't think anarchists have
	built any *state*. For starters, if they did, they would not be
	anarchists, by definition.

> 
> One way or the other we end up with a "state" or some other
> state-like organisation. There will be rulers, and there will be
> ruled.

	Oh yes. Without slavery, who would pick the cotton.


> 
> But we can either choose to take what we can from what seems to be a
> set of good ideas (separation of powers, checks and balances,


	Wait rysiek, you are copypasting the most laughable nonsense
	that anglo fascism (masquerading as 'liberalism') ever
	produced? 

	You know, the first requirement to win an argument is to pick
	the right side. And statism isn't the right side of the
	argument. 


	re : 'division of power' - the incentives for people who have
	power lead them to COOPERATE to maintain or gain more power, not
	to 'check' each other's power. ABC of economics.



> etc)
> and build upon them or try implementing them in a more functional
> way, or... go the "ignore it altogether" route, end up reinventing
> the wheel, and arriving at a not-all- that-functional variation of it.
> 

	So, you are willing to 'cooperate' with the current criminals
	and justify them while accusing a bunch of anarchist of 'maybe'
	doing something that goes against their principles? 

	

	






From guninski at guninski.com  Fri Oct  2 08:05:24 2015
From: guninski at guninski.com (Georgi Guninski)
Date: Fri, 2 Oct 2015 18:05:24 +0300
Subject: What is this "Weird garbled Windows 7 update"?
In-Reply-To: <CAHWD2rJPx5X4ypX=4isqjRXhMuFSn+30cSC-F4P1bnzdpLvOJw@mail.gmail.com>
References: <20151002060818.GB2533@sivokote.iziade.m$>
 <CAHWD2rJPx5X4ypX=4isqjRXhMuFSn+30cSC-F4P1bnzdpLvOJw@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <20151002150524.GE2533@sivokote.iziade.m$>

On Fri, Oct 02, 2015 at 04:14:26PM +0200, Lodewijk andré de la porte wrote:
> Maybe not owned, but at least without accidentally-press-publish protection.
> 
> (if it's this easy to mispublish a test update, how hard would it be for an
> employee to publish an exploit?)

Feel free to forward this to whomever it may concern.

As I blogged, why should their "alleged test updates" contain
.gov/.mil/.edu domains?

As an aside, the "garbage text" might just be some easy to break ASCII?
friendly cypher/obfuscation. (certainly sufficiently long OTP would
decrypt it to whatever, but something short is not expected to decrypt
it to (l33t?) English IMHO).





From rysiek at hackerspace.pl  Fri Oct  2 09:21:47 2015
From: rysiek at hackerspace.pl (rysiek)
Date: Fri, 02 Oct 2015 18:21:47 +0200
Subject: What is this "Weird garbled Windows 7 update"?
In-Reply-To: <20151002150524.GE2533@sivokote.iziade.m$>
References: <20151002060818.GB2533@sivokote.iziade.m$>
 <CAHWD2rJPx5X4ypX=4isqjRXhMuFSn+30cSC-F4P1bnzdpLvOJw@mail.gmail.com>
 <20151002150524.GE2533@sivokote.iziade.m$>
Message-ID: <2148026.leGbH5TIhM@lapuntu>

Dnia piątek, 2 października 2015 18:05:24 Georgi Guninski pisze:
> On Fri, Oct 02, 2015 at 04:14:26PM +0200, Lodewijk andré de la porte wrote:
> > Maybe not owned, but at least without accidentally-press-publish
> > protection.
> > 
> > (if it's this easy to mispublish a test update, how hard would it be for
> > an
> > employee to publish an exploit?)
> 
> Feel free to forward this to whomever it may concern.
> 
> As I blogged, why should their "alleged test updates" contain
> .gov/.mil/.edu domains?
> 
> As an aside, the "garbage text" might just be some easy to break ASCII?
> friendly cypher/obfuscation.

Base52? Can't be bothered to write a base52 decoder. ;)

-- 
Pozdrawiam,
Michał "rysiek" Woźniak

Zmieniam klucz GPG :: http://rys.io/pl/147
GPG Key Transition :: http://rys.io/en/147
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From themikebest at gmail.com  Fri Oct  2 15:38:17 2015
From: themikebest at gmail.com (Michael Best)
Date: Fri, 2 Oct 2015 18:38:17 -0400
Subject: No MITM attack on Cryptome
Message-ID: <CANFTA08C6+Eoe2gU8hjB4ATpuCM4bvsdz1uhN2J+SJfakmV1-A@mail.gmail.com>

A week or two ago, a new Snowden was released that shows information about
a visitor to Cryptome. James Atkinson looked at the slide and concluded
that it was proof of a man in the middle (MITM) attack against Cryptome. He
sent his concerns to John and Deborah who then posted them on Cryptome.org
- https://cryptome.org/2015/09/gchq-illegal-spying-us.htm

I'm doing a little bit of research on the slide and decided to compare
notes with what had already been written about it, including Mr. Atkinson's
post. While examining his remarks about the alleged MITM attack, I noticed
that he seemed to be missing a piece of information that led him to a
faulty conclusion. I've copied and pasted the relevant bits below.

But here is the thing -- and this is crucial -- the address for Cryptome is
> listed to be the location of a fiber optic cable junction in Sterling, VA
> (next to an Amusement Machine company)... which is quite some distance away
> from your location in NYC, and a considerable distance from your ISP who
> hosts your file, and it is located away from any signal switching systems
> use in the area, but it is virtually next door to fiber that goes to a
> large NSA listening post nearby.



The reason it is notable, is that someone at or near the location in
> Sterling, VA is performing a MITM attack on Cryptome visitors, and this
> image out of the slidedeck with the two GPS coordinates is the U.S.
> Government performing a MITM attack against Cryptome and sharing the
> collected intelligence with the Brits, or the U.S. Government giving the
> British government backdoor access into the U.S. (illegal) collection
> systems.


This isn't a sign of a MITM attack, but rather of a misunderstanding. The
Cryptome servers aren't located in New York at the address listed for
Cryptome as a business. The servers are hosted by Network Solutions, which
is who the IP address appears to belong to, as shown below.

NetRange: 205.178.128.0 - 205.178.191.255
CIDR: 205.178.128.0/18
NetName: NTSL-01
NetHandle: NET-205-178-128-0-1
Parent: NET205 (NET-205-0-0-0-0)
NetType: Direct Allocation
OriginAS: AS14441, AS19871, AS6245
Organization: Network Solutions, LLC (NETWO-59)
RegDate: 1999-02-09
Updated: 2012-03-02
Ref: http://whois.arin.net/rest/net/NET-205-178-128-0-1

A reverse DNS search shows that the IP address is used to host over 1,100
domains. I've attached two PDFs that include more detailed information
showing that there is no indication of a MITM attack against Cryptome.

Live versions of the PDFs can be found at
http://www.iptodomain.com/ip-205-178-146-236.php
and
http://www.tcpiputils.com/browse/ip-address/205.178.146.236

I hope this will help soothe some fears and paranoia about this particular
alleged MITM attack. Monitoring, almost certainly. Other MITM attacks at
other times, perhaps. The GCHQ slide just isn't any sort of proof that
there was a MITM attack on Cryptome.org during the times referenced by the
slide.
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From rysiek at hackerspace.pl  Fri Oct  2 09:59:29 2015
From: rysiek at hackerspace.pl (rysiek)
Date: Fri, 02 Oct 2015 18:59:29 +0200
Subject: Snowden on the Twitters
In-Reply-To: <560EADF5.80207@riseup.net>
References: <CAD2Ti2-ZiZDAR_mLFAQqcgLVyyvrv2o2Kx3ri+jBK3o7aUF6QA@mail.gmail.com>
 <1459598.CCgg234MoK@lapuntu> <560EADF5.80207@riseup.net>
Message-ID: <8253018.hPbHOlQF0S@lapuntu>

Dnia piątek, 2 października 2015 09:16:53 Razer pisze:
> On 10/02/2015 03:56 AM, rysiek wrote:
> > Dnia czwartek, 1 października 2015 08:03:59 Razer pisze:
> >> On 10/01/2015 12:36 AM, Juan wrote:
> >>> On Thu, 01 Oct 2015 07:45:26 +0100
> >>> 
> >>> oshwm <oshwm at openmailbox.org> wrote:
> >>>> " All I wanted was for the public to be able to have a say in how they
> >>>> are governed.">>
> >>>> 
> >>> 	snowden can't be THAT stupid...?
> >> 
> >> He believe in the 'system'.
> >> 
> >> RR
> >> 
> >> “Any movement that seeks social justice through political involvement
> >> and attempting to hold public officials democratically accountable is
> >> doomed to failure. The only real way to achieve social justice is by
> >> bypassing the state, treating it as irrelevant, and building the kind of
> >> society we want without the government’s permission.”
> > 
> > Yo dawg, I herd yo don't liek the state, so yo should build one of your
> > own
> > for others not to liek.
> 
> So by extension if I'm in a 'stateless' state everyone will luv me?

My point was, rather, that ultimately this:
"bypassing the state (...) and building the kind of society we want without
 the government's permission"

...often ends up being this:
"bypassing the *current* state (...) and building the kind of society we want
 without the *current* governments' permission, so that we can become the
 government that others need permission of"

One way or the other we end up with a "state" or some other state-like 
organisation. There will be rulers, and there will be ruled.

But we can either choose to take what we can from what seems to be a set of 
good ideas (separation of powers, checks and balances, etc) and build upon 
them or try implementing them in a more functional way, or... go the "ignore 
it altogether" route, end up reinventing the wheel, and arriving at a not-all-
that-functional variation of it.

-- 
Pozdrawiam,
Michał "rysiek" Woźniak

Zmieniam klucz GPG :: http://rys.io/pl/147
GPG Key Transition :: http://rys.io/en/147
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From guninski at guninski.com  Fri Oct  2 09:22:18 2015
From: guninski at guninski.com (Georgi Guninski)
Date: Fri, 2 Oct 2015 19:22:18 +0300
Subject: freedom.press, also the firstlook/intercept...
In-Reply-To: <CAHWD2rKqR0HfWs9s+wJG-mshadO26mZ8XOte2fzPTEFAStbMQg@mail.gmail.com>
References: <20150930200213.GE13534@ctrlc.hu> <560DAB81.7060800@pilobilus.net>
 <20151001220923.A0DFC6801A8@frontend2.nyi.internal>
 <20151002085841.GD2533@sivokote.iziade.m$>
 <CAHWD2rKqR0HfWs9s+wJG-mshadO26mZ8XOte2fzPTEFAStbMQg@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <20151002162218.GF2533@sivokote.iziade.m$>

On Fri, Oct 02, 2015 at 04:28:23PM +0200, Lodewijk andré de la porte wrote:
> 
> * full disk crypto is not a thing in androidland ;(
> 
>

it is weird to troll android from a gmail.com account, according to
headers.

are you using windoze phone on gmail?

are you outsourcing dDos to google instead of hotmail.com?




From tigrutigru at gmail.com  Fri Oct  2 11:49:39 2015
From: tigrutigru at gmail.com (tigrutigru at gmail.com)
Date: Fri, 2 Oct 2015 20:49:39 +0200
Subject: Subject: Re: Bitnation system. Looks interesting.
In-Reply-To: <CALQy+B2uLoiLRXgKaZAMv-fGs8oEJg7zv-eFWsD5NcXzVCdVeA@mail.gmail.com>
References: <mailman.100.1441862357.1742.cypherpunks@cpunks.org>
 <9F88CEB5-0C6D-4443-BE62-1731BFEC1F7E@gmail.com>
 <CALQy+B2uLoiLRXgKaZAMv-fGs8oEJg7zv-eFWsD5NcXzVCdVeA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <16B000BA-10F7-4F1E-A3BB-C7D5D01A0E2B@gmail.com>

Good to hear someone being healthily sceptical about it.
If you think of Bitnation of inspirational/theoretical arts project its kind of cute. Though proof of existence that was the only thing that they were showing of is definitely not a Bitnation thing. 
The problem is if a project like that claims to provide or at least to try to build any infrastructure - is misleading. I also find it sad when someone puts a brand on ideas and concept developed by someone else.
A problem is that a lot of blockchain-romantic kids rave about Bitnation and just get excited about the wrong thing really - a shiny turd. 


> On 22 Sep 2015, at 6:19 pm, Brenda Fernández <me at brendafernandez.com> wrote:
> 
> This Bitnation think looks like a shiny turd. And has been going on for a while.
> 
> The few things they actually do are not new in idea nor implementation. The rest is either crap (like 'we offer visa prepaid cards nao') or marketing smoke. The real bitcoin happens on #bitcoin-assets, not in these peripheral scampanies.
> 
> Scammers will tell you that the blockchain will suck you off and resolve your decentralized disputes in the shiny cloud of the internet of things, or any such nonsense shit, if they expect to get money/attention/press for it. 
> 
> 
> 
>> On Thu, Sep 10, 2015 at 4:19 AM, <tigrutigru at gmail.com> wrote:
>> It seems like there's a confusion between contracts and cryotocontracts?
>> 
>> > On 10 Sep 2015, at 7:19 am, cypherpunks-request at cpunks.org wrote:
>> >
>> > Send cypherpunks mailing list submissions to
>> >    cypherpunks at cpunks.org
>> >
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>> >    https://cpunks.org/mailman/listinfo/cypherpunks
>> > or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to
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>> >    cypherpunks-owner at cpunks.org
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>> > When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific
>> > than "Re: Contents of cypherpunks digest..."
>> >
>> >
>> > Today's Topics:
>> >
>> >   1. Re: Bitnation system. Looks interesting.
>> >      (Lodewijk andré de la porte)
>> >   2. Re: Bitnation system. Looks interesting. (Bryan Bishop)
>> >   3. Re: Bitnation system. Looks interesting. (Martin Becze)
>> >   4. Repbin release v0.0.2 (ryan.pear at ownbay.net)
>> >   5. Re: Repbin release v0.0.2 (jim bell)
>> >   6. Re: How Putin Controls the Internet and Popular Opinion in
>> >      Russia (rysiek)
>> >   7. Re: How Putin Controls the Internet and Popular Opinion in
>> >      Russia (Juan)
>> >   8. Re: Repbin release v0.0.2 (rysiek)
>> >   9. Hostages for Sale on Telegram (Rich Jones)
>> >  10. Re: Hostages for Sale on Telegram (Ben Mezger)
>> >  11. John McAfee Runs For US President In 2016 Under Cyber Party
>> >      (grarpamp)
>> >  12. Re: Hostages for Sale on Telegram (grarpamp)
>> >
>> >
>> > ----------------------------------------------------------------------
>> >
>> > Message: 1
>> > Date: Wed, 9 Sep 2015 18:30:53 +0200
>> > From: Lodewijk andré de la porte <l at odewijk.nl>
>> > To: Mirimir <mirimir at riseup.net>
>> > Cc: "cypherpunks at cpunks.org" <cypherpunks at cpunks.org>
>> > Subject: Re: Bitnation system. Looks interesting.
>> > Message-ID:
>> >    <CAHWD2r+C+NXJ3Q-W=Bt5T+9=3ncfUwjvQVmT7Gqdn56MDydvyA at mail.gmail.com>
>> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"
>> >
>> > It's documentation is overly verbose, speculative, assuming and unclear.
>> >
>> > I love the idea of providing services that the government usually tends to.
>> Everyone loves ideas that Bitnation put their brand on.
>> >
>> > I somewhat know what marriage before God means. I somewhat know what
>> > marriage before the State means. I have no idea what marriage before the
>> > Blockchain means. Probably no more than lovers' tree-carvings.
>> Exactly. Proof-of-existence. I don't understand what it has to do with Bitnation brand. Someone just wants to look cool. What exactly Bitnationare building?
>> >
>> > Relationship to reality is the hardest part - it's also where things like
>> > enforcement starts turning it's ugly head.
>> >
>> > I'd argue marriage before state is an artifact of the marriage between
>> > church and state. Relationships, commitments, etc, these would be better
>> > explained in contract.
>> Yes. Obligations can be explained. Still people go to courts and dispute contracts. These are text.
>> > Contracts can go onto a blockchain.
>> Contracts which go on the blockchain have nothing to do with legal contracts. Parts of the text (legal) contracts can be hooked to a smart contract I guess.
>> I guess if a married couple has a dispute over digital property or btc in a wallet, let's say a script can manage it, but how the script (smart contract) will know who in this particular dispute did what. Even with no details and subtleties involved.
>> > Generic. Neat.
>> > Unpretentious.
>> >
>> > Bitnation is fascinating, thought provoking, but it seems somewhat off.
>> Ideas are nice. They're not necessarily coming from Bitnation. Proof of existence, or Blockchain ID for example were existing ideas which had functioning prototypes. They just don't make it sound grandiose.
>> 
>> Bitnation has a claim to be a software project and afaik has a presale of a currency - either premined or non existent - I don't remember. I'm fine with that type of crowdfunding if there is some sort of product or a service behind it or an attempt to build it. I don't think that contemporary art project should pretend to be a software project or pretend that it can realistically offer serious services or replace existing ones. It's cool as a concept project.
>> 
>> 
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>> >
>> > ------------------------------
>> >
>> > Message: 2
>> > Date: Wed, 9 Sep 2015 11:39:51 -0500
>> > From: Bryan Bishop <kanzure at gmail.com>
>> > To: Lodewijk andré de la porte <l at odewijk.nl>, Bryan Bishop
>> >    <kanzure at gmail.com>
>> > Cc: "cypherpunks at cpunks.org" <cypherpunks at cpunks.org>
>> > Subject: Re: Bitnation system. Looks interesting.
>> > Message-ID:
>> >    <CABaSBax3zoGtBbegRTp-sXU6TspAF6MuRQXo1Q4QH7UX8jjuTw at mail.gmail.com>
>> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"
>> >
>> > On Wed, Sep 9, 2015 at 11:30 AM, Lodewijk andré de la porte <l at odewijk.nl>
>> > wrote:
>> >
>> >> Bitnation is fascinating, thought provoking, but it seems somewhat off.
>> >
>> >
>> > http://cointelegraph.com/news/112725/bitnation-core-dev-team-resigns-speaks-out-before-crowdsale
>> >
>> > - Bryan
>> > http://heybryan.org/
>> > 1 512 203 0507
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>> >
>> > ------------------------------
>> >
>> > Message: 3
>> > Date: Wed, 9 Sep 2015 16:41:56 +0000
>> > From: Martin Becze <mjbecze at gmail.com>
>> > To: Lodewijk andré de la porte <l at odewijk.nl>
>> > Cc: "cypherpunks at cpunks.org" <cypherpunks at cpunks.org>
>> > Subject: Re: Bitnation system. Looks interesting.
>> > Message-ID:
>> >    <CALz06g5h4ETE3bnKdKbXCDnNvHUCnAFWXgXK=86tEaXfZs7i5g at mail.gmail.com>
>> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"
>> >
>> >> somewhat off
>> > Yeah the founder went/is crazy, there is no technical work done and all of
>> > the developers that were working on the project quite.
>> >
>> > On Wed, Sep 9, 2015 at 4:30 PM, Lodewijk andré de la porte <l at odewijk.nl>
>> > wrote:
>> >
>> >> It's documentation is overly verbose, speculative, assuming and unclear.
>> >>
>> >> I love the idea of providing services that the government usually tends
>> >> to.
>> >>
>> >> I somewhat know what marriage before God means. I somewhat know what
>> >> marriage before the State means. I have no idea what marriage before the
>> >> Blockchain means. Probably no more than lovers' tree-carvings.
>> >>
>> >> Relationship to reality is the hardest part - it's also where things like
>> >> enforcement starts turning it's ugly head.
>> >>
>> >> I'd argue marriage before state is an artifact of the marriage between
>> >> church and state. Relationships, commitments, etc, these would be better
>> >> explained in contract. Contracts can go onto a blockchain. Generic. Neat.
>> >> Unpretentious.
>> >>
>> >> Bitnation is fascinating, thought provoking, but it seems somewhat off.
>> > -------------- next part --------------
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>> >
>> > ------------------------------
>> >
>> > Message: 4
>> > Date: Wed, 09 Sep 2015 20:53:35 +0000
>> > From: ryan.pear at ownbay.net
>> > To: cypherpunks at cpunks.org
>> > Subject: Repbin release v0.0.2
>> > Message-ID: <dc79b21789e51d8b7a236d53497ae04a at ownbay.net>
>> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed
>> >
>> > We're happy to announce the release v0.0.2 of Repbin:
>> > The replicated, encrypted, distributed and anonymized pastebin.
>> >
>> > Changes include: Better terminal usability, sqlite/mysql backend,
>> > binaries!
>> >
>> > Check here for release source code and client binaries:
>> > https://github.com/repbin/repbin/releases/tag/v0.0.2
>> >
>> > About Repbin:
>> > Repbin is an encrypted pastebin for the command line that runs over Tor!
>> > Repbin servers form a distributed network where nodes sync posts with
>> > each other (like in Usenet or BBS/Fido systems). This makes Repbin
>> > resilient and scalable. Repbin focuses on privacy (encrypted messages)
>> > and anonymity (padding and repost chains). To limit spam and
>> > denial-of-service attacks, Repbin uses the Hashcash proof-of-work
>> > algorithm which is widely known from Bitcoin mining.
>> >
>> > Learn more about Repbin here:
>> > https://github.com/repbin/repbin/blob/master/README.md
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> > ------------------------------
>> >
>> > Message: 5
>> > Date: Wed, 9 Sep 2015 21:48:56 +0000 (UTC)
>> > From: jim bell <jdb10987 at yahoo.com>
>> > To: "ryan.pear at ownbay.net" <ryan.pear at ownbay.net>,
>> >    "cypherpunks at cpunks.org" <cypherpunks at cpunks.org>
>> > Subject: Re: Repbin release v0.0.2
>> > Message-ID:
>> >    <1726332927.1564988.1441835336954.JavaMail.yahoo at mail.yahoo.com>
>> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"
>> >
>> >> About Repbin:
>> >> Repbin is an encrypted pastebin for the command line that runs over Tor!
>> >> Repbin servers form a distributed network where nodes sync posts with
>> >> each other (like in Usenet or BBS/Fido systems). This makes Repbin
>> >> resilient and scalable. Repbin focuses on privacy (encrypted messages)
>> >> and anonymity (padding and repost chains). To limit spam and
>> >> denial-of-service attacks, Repbin uses the Hashcash proof-of-work
>> >> algorithm which is widely known from Bitcoin mining.
>> >> Learn more about Repbin here:
>> >> https://github.com/repbin/repbin/blob/master/README.md
>> > Has anybody ever considered the idea of doing otherwise-useful CPU work with the power currently expended  by computing hashes in Bitcoin mining?  The most obvious application would be weather forecasting:  It could use a huge amount of computation, on a continuously ongoing basis, and is valuable to every nation on earth.  Whether it can be lasso'ed into a bitcoin-mining engine, I don't know.              Jim Bell
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> > -------------- next part --------------
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>> >
>> > ------------------------------
>> >
>> > Message: 6
>> > Date: Thu, 10 Sep 2015 00:52:47 +0200
>> > From: rysiek <rysiek at hackerspace.pl>
>> > To: cypherpunks at cpunks.org
>> > Subject: Re: How Putin Controls the Internet and Popular Opinion in
>> >    Russia
>> > Message-ID: <6619420.kEgClR5EXu at lapuntu>
>> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"
>> >
>> > Dnia środa, 9 września 2015 08:21:36 John Young pisze:
>> >> This from the journalists who check with USG before publishing Snowden
>> >> documents as Snowden allegedly requires "to avoid harm to the US."
>> >>
>> >> Fingerpointing at Putin is obligatory for those working the Broadcasting
>> >> Board of Governors propaganda beat.
>> >
>> > The fact that A is evil, and A is B's adversary, doesn't automagically make B
>> > not evil.
>> >
>> > The fact that there's a lot wrong with US of A, and USA and Russia don't
>> > really cooperate well, does not make what's happening in Russia magically
>> > okay.
>> >
>> > Why there's so many people defending Russian system just because USA-Russia
>> > relations are not superfriendly is beyond me.
>> >
>> > --
>> > Pozdrawiam,
>> > Michał "rysiek" Woźniak
>> >
>> > Zmieniam klucz GPG :: http://rys.io/pl/147
>> > GPG Key Transition :: http://rys.io/en/147
>> > -------------- next part --------------
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>> >
>> > ------------------------------
>> >
>> > Message: 7
>> > Date: Wed, 9 Sep 2015 20:02:34 -0300
>> > From: Juan <juan.g71 at gmail.com>
>> > To: cypherpunks at cpunks.org
>> > Subject: Re: How Putin Controls the Internet and Popular Opinion in
>> >    Russia
>> > Message-ID: <55f0b996.6a15370a.19c54.ffff9df5 at mx.google.com>
>> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8
>> >
>> > On Thu, 10 Sep 2015 00:52:47 +0200
>> > rysiek <rysiek at hackerspace.pl> wrote:
>> >
>> >> Dnia środa, 9 września 2015 08:21:36 John Young pisze:
>> >>> This from the journalists who check with USG before publishing
>> >>> Snowden documents as Snowden allegedly requires "to avoid harm to
>> >>> the US."
>> >>>
>> >>> Fingerpointing at Putin is obligatory for those working the
>> >>> Broadcasting Board of Governors propaganda beat.
>> >>
>> >> The fact that A is evil, and A is B's adversary, doesn't
>> >> automagically make B not evil.
>> >
>> >
>> >    Kindly point out where  JY said the russian government was not
>> >    evil.
>> >
>> >>
>> >> The fact that there's a lot wrong with US of A, and USA and Russia
>> >> don't really cooperate well, does not make what's happening in Russia
>> >> magically okay.
>> >
>> >
>> >    Kindly point out where JY said that what's happening in russia
>> >    (whatever that is) is okay.
>> >
>> >
>> >    On the other hand rysiek given your laughable & constant
>> >    defense of the pentagon-funded tor-cunts, you are not really in
>> >    a position to be pointing too many fingers.
>> >
>> >>
>> >> Why there's so many people defending Russian system just because
>> >> USA-Russia relations are not superfriendly is beyond me.
>> >
>> >    ...
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> > ------------------------------
>> >
>> > Message: 8
>> > Date: Thu, 10 Sep 2015 00:47:31 +0200
>> > From: rysiek <rysiek at hackerspace.pl>
>> > To: cypherpunks at cpunks.org
>> > Subject: Re: Repbin release v0.0.2
>> > Message-ID: <6193628.0yFTp10ebS at lapuntu>
>> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"
>> >
>> > Dnia środa, 9 września 2015 21:48:56 jim bell pisze:
>> >>> About Repbin:
>> >>> Repbin is an encrypted pastebin for the command line that runs over Tor!
>> >>> Repbin servers form a distributed network where nodes sync posts with
>> >>> each other (like in Usenet or BBS/Fido systems). This makes Repbin
>> >>> resilient and scalable. Repbin focuses on privacy (encrypted messages)
>> >>> and anonymity (padding and repost chains). To limit spam and
>> >>> denial-of-service attacks, Repbin uses the Hashcash proof-of-work
>> >>> algorithm which is widely known from Bitcoin mining.
>> >>> Learn more about Repbin here:
>> >>> https://github.com/repbin/repbin/blob/master/README.md
>> >>
>> >> Has anybody ever considered the idea of doing otherwise-useful CPU work with
>> >> the power currently expended  by computing hashes in Bitcoin mining?
>> >
>> > My dream would be a distributed github replacement (a'la gitchain) where
>> > proof-of-work is somehow related to compilation, running tests, or somesuch.
>> >
>> >> The most obvious application would be weather forecasting:  It could use a
>> >> huge amount of computation, on a continuously ongoing basis, and is valuable
>> >> to every nation on earth.  Whether it can be lasso'ed into a bitcoin-mining
>> >> engine, I don't know.
>> >
>> > Probably not -- the "thing" mined has to be easily verifiable by other nodes.
>> > How does one verify a weather forecast in such a setting? ;)
>> >
>> > --
>> > Pozdrawiam,
>> > Michał "rysiek" Woźniak
>> >
>> > Zmieniam klucz GPG :: http://rys.io/pl/147
>> > GPG Key Transition :: http://rys.io/en/147
>> > -------------- next part --------------
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>> >
>> > ------------------------------
>> >
>> > Message: 9
>> > Date: Wed, 9 Sep 2015 18:08:09 -0700
>> > From: Rich Jones <rich at openwatch.net>
>> > To: "cypherpunks at cpunks.org" <cypherpunks at cpunks.org>
>> > Subject: Hostages for Sale on Telegram
>> > Message-ID:
>> >    <CADJYzxKfpgMZX4uEb9R=xvJvNCYEvhNsDtFx9G_OYkRtoz1Qdg at mail.gmail.com>
>> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"
>> >
>> > More for the ISIS-loves-"Secure"-Messaging-Apps folder:
>> >
>> > "Dabiq 11 released by terror group ISIS. At the end it notes 2 new foreign
>> > hostages; 1 Chinese and other Norweigan."
>> >
>> > https://twitter.com/DrPartizan_/status/641671841380179968
>> >
>> > Click through for pictures and Telegram number.
>> >
>> > R
>> > -------------- next part --------------
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>> >
>> > ------------------------------
>> >
>> > Message: 10
>> > Date: Wed, 09 Sep 2015 22:25:29 -0300
>> > From: Ben Mezger <mezger.benjamin at gmail.com>
>> > To: miserlou at gmail.com
>> > Cc: "cypherpunks at cpunks.org" <cypherpunks at cpunks.org>
>> > Subject: Re: Hostages for Sale on Telegram
>> > Message-ID: <m2a8sv3w1i.fsf at gmail.com>
>> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"
>> >
>> > Hmm,
>> >
>> > "Excuse me @telegram but ISIS are using YOUR network/application to sell
>> > hostage. Please find more info. on that number!!"
>> >
>> > Well, I would agree with that, but that would probably break Telegram's
>> > policy of "privacy", no?
>> >
>> > Rich Jones writes:
>> >
>> >> More for the ISIS-loves-"Secure"-Messaging-Apps folder:
>> >>
>> >> "Dabiq 11 released by terror group ISIS. At the end it notes 2 new foreign
>> >> hostages; 1 Chinese and other Norweigan."
>> >>
>> >> https://twitter.com/DrPartizan_/status/641671841380179968
>> >>
>> >> Click through for pictures and Telegram number.
>> >>
>> >> R
>> >
>> > --
>> > Sent with my mu4e
>> > -------------- next part --------------
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>> >
>> > ------------------------------
>> >
>> > Message: 11
>> > Date: Thu, 10 Sep 2015 00:16:48 -0400
>> > From: grarpamp <grarpamp at gmail.com>
>> > To: cypherpunks at cpunks.org
>> > Subject: John McAfee Runs For US President In 2016 Under Cyber Party
>> > Message-ID:
>> >    <CAD2Ti2_2pHMEHuP=z-stYTn-NG=9u3hRsX3EcgaCUh7j0jY7Hg at mail.gmail.com>
>> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8
>> >
>> > https://mcafee16.com/
>> > http://cyberparty.org/
>> > https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_McAfee
>> > http://www.whoismcafee.com/
>> > http://www.futuretensecentral.com/
>> > https://twitter.com/officialmcafee
>> > https://twitter.com/JohnMcAfeeStory
>> > http://johnmcafeestory.com/
>> >
>> >
>> > ------------------------------
>> >
>> > Message: 12
>> > Date: Thu, 10 Sep 2015 01:18:50 -0400
>> > From: grarpamp <grarpamp at gmail.com>
>> > To: "cypherpunks at cpunks.org" <cypherpunks at cpunks.org>
>> > Subject: Re: Hostages for Sale on Telegram
>> > Message-ID:
>> >    <CAD2Ti29=9pK1sMjiu1+YGOMrPexrHpEk4mb36HF4ZxKj6mvY3Q at mail.gmail.com>
>> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8
>> >
>> >> On Wed, Sep 9, 2015 at 9:08 PM, Rich Jones <rich at openwatch.net> wrote:
>> >> More for the ISIS-loves-"Secure"-Messaging-Apps folder:
>> >
>> > https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FmBNVMk_AGs
>> > https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Telegram_(software)
>> > https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Surespot
>> > https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wickr
>> > https://antipolygraph.org/blog/2015/06/07/developers-silence-raises-concern-about-surespot-encrypted-messenger/
>> >
>> > https://twitter.com/cybercaliphate
>> > https://twitter.com/search?q=cybercaliphate
>> > https://twitter.com/search?q=cyphercaliphate
>> >
>> > https://pbs.twimg.com/media/COOxuq-WIAAG8pQ.jpg
>> > https://www.google.com/search?tbm=isch&q=cyber+caliphate
>> >
>> > http://www.dailytech.com/Anonymous+vs+the+ISIS+Cyber+Caliphate++War+in+the+Middle+East+Goes+Digital/article37154.htm
>> > http://www.nydailynews.com/news/national/isis-hacker-group-cyber-caliphate-hacks-article-1.2067634
>> > https://news.vice.com/article/the-islamic-states-top-hacker-was-killed-in-a-us-drone-strike
>> > https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Junaid_Hussain
>> > https://www.youtube.com/user/TeaMp0ison/videos
>> > http://homeland.house.gov/sites/homeland.house.gov/files/documents/06-03-15-McCaul-Open.pdf
>> > https://twitter.com/p_vanostaeyen/status/639165071072038913
>> > https://pbs.twimg.com/media/CN7FPdKXAAEucGl.jpg
>> > https://twitter.com/lorenzoFB/status/638818414958477312
>> > https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/national-security/us-launches-secret-drone-campaign-to-hunt-islamic-state-leaders-in-syria/2015/09/01/723b3e04-5033-11e5-933e-7d06c647a395_story.html
>> >
>> >
>> >> https://twitter.com/DrPartizan_/status/641671841380179968
>> >> Click through for pictures and Telegram number.
>> >
>> > https://pbs.twimg.com/media/COetId6WwAAmKzB.jpg
>> > https://pbs.twimg.com/media/COetId6WIAAJGAg.jpg
>> > +9647705648252
>> >
>> >
>> > ------------------------------
>> >
>> > Subject: Digest Footer
>> >
>> > _______________________________________________
>> > cypherpunks mailing list
>> > cypherpunks at cpunks.org
>> > https://cpunks.org/mailman/listinfo/cypherpunks
>> >
>> >
>> > ------------------------------
>> >
>> > End of cypherpunks Digest, Vol 27, Issue 14
>> > *******************************************
> 
> 
> 
> -- 
> Brenda Fernández
> me at brendafernandez.com
> GPG: CE5BEE6C81FCA4D4
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From rysiek at hackerspace.pl  Fri Oct  2 12:17:31 2015
From: rysiek at hackerspace.pl (rysiek)
Date: Fri, 02 Oct 2015 21:17:31 +0200
Subject: Snowden on the Twitters
In-Reply-To: <560ED65A.1000408@riseup.net>
References: <CAD2Ti2-ZiZDAR_mLFAQqcgLVyyvrv2o2Kx3ri+jBK3o7aUF6QA@mail.gmail.com>
 <1459598.CCgg234MoK@lapuntu> <560ED65A.1000408@riseup.net>
Message-ID: <1729752.GSqEr3VVtn@lapuntu>

Dnia piątek, 2 października 2015 14:09:14 Douglas Lucas pisze:
> Some want to end the state, and others want to be statesmen. Lately
> WikiLeaks has been retweeting a picture of Jimmy Carter (I suppose
> because the addition of an image is supposed to be extra convincing)
> with a quotation from the former president to the effect that he
> didn't deplore Cablegate. It is annoying that US presidents are treated
> as people whose praise should be sought, along the lines of
> "If Jimmy Carter doesn't agree with it, it's not my revolution."

Dunno, man, for me that's more like:
"Not that I give a rat's ass about those people you find 'important', but
 here, even they are okay with what I do; so, deal with it".

-- 
Pozdrawiam,
Michał "rysiek" Woźniak

Zmieniam klucz GPG :: http://rys.io/pl/147
GPG Key Transition :: http://rys.io/en/147
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From themikebest at gmail.com  Fri Oct  2 19:23:12 2015
From: themikebest at gmail.com (Michael Best)
Date: Fri, 2 Oct 2015 22:23:12 -0400
Subject: The GCHQ Cryptome slide could be a mockup/disinfo
Message-ID: <CANFTA0_rUNWVZ8jN=+=vPbQ2f+iTrRx6x1uZB+h61pKO56tXuw@mail.gmail.com>

For the latest version:
http://that1archive.neocities.org/subfolder1/gchq-cryptome-slide.html

A few days ago, a new Snowden slide
<https://theintercept.com/2015/09/25/gchq-radio-porn-spies-track-web-users-online-identities/>
was
released that appeared to show that the GCHQ was monitoring Cryptome in
near-real-time by examining the browsing data of one of the websites'
visitors. John and Deborah of Cryptome later verified that the information
in their slides matched their logs, seemingly verifying the legitimacy of
the slide itself and the information presented about KARMA POLICE.


However, after examining the slide and all the information available, I
realized that it was possible to create the slide (or one like it) with
accurate data without any of the sources cited/assumed/alleged. To
demonstrate this, I put together some comparable information. To respect
the privacy of visitors to Cryptome, the end of each IP address is redacted
and I've provided only a little information about several users instead of
focusing on one user to provide detailed information about.

A few notes before getting into the data:

   1. I didn't receive this information from anyone in law enforcement or
   the intelligence, nor stolen through malicious hacking, social engineering,
   or electronic intrusion. Neither is it the result of surveillance directed
   against Cryptome or its users, or of any other illegal action. It was
   compiled from my legitimate archives.
   2. I have confirmed that the information was available to others by
   locating pre-existing sources online.
   3. This is not meant to accuse any one of forging a document, simply
   pointing out that it can't necessarily be verified by confirming the
   information with Cryptome's server logs.
   4. If the slide *is* a mockup, it could be an internal mockup produced
   by GCHQ, a deliberate piece of disinformation from within or without GCHQ,
   a document altered by Snowden, his friends/"friends" in Russia, or anyone
   else in the chain of custody. Given that Snowden didn't review all of the
   documents he handed over, he might not recognize if one had been altered,
   embellished, forged, or taken out of context prior to publication. Or it
   could be genuine - proving that something could be a fake isn't quite the
   same as proving it's a fake.
   5. If the document was forged, the only group I have reason to suspect
   are the chekist security agencies who have access to both the documents and
   to Snowden.
   6. This was the result of a few rushed hours of work in a single
   afternoon, and thus may contain minor mistakes.
   7. The times should be Eastern/US, but this is an unverified assumption.
   8. These comments are unrelated to my debunking
   <https://cpunks.org/pipermail/cypherpunks/2015-October/009565.html> of
   the MITM attack against Cryptome which was seemingly implied
   <https://cryptome.org/2015/09/gchq-illegal-spying-us.htm> by this slide.

Visitor IP correlated with page, time and date

*IP: *212.48.158.*
*Date: *2010-02-10
*Time: *23:06:15
*URL: *http://cryptome.org/cartome/foucault.htm

Note that I manually translated the time and date from a time code, so it
may be slightly incorrect. The original timestamp was 20100210230615.
Twelve Days of Cryptomas

In case I mistranslated the timestamp or anyone thinks that it was a fluke,
here are twelve time and dates along with the redacted IP address that
visited Cryptome at that time. These time and dates were originally
rendered in a human readable format, so there is no danger that I
mistranslated them.
- December 25 2009 16:22 - 74.208.77.*
- December 26 2009 18:19 - 65.98.224.*
- December 27 2009 22:23 - 208.80.193.*
- December 28 2009 21:51 - 69.113.197.*
- December 29 2009 18:28 - 76.92.164.*
- December 30 2009 03:30 - 88.80.205.*
- December 31 2009 23:59 - 210.107.62.*
- January 01 2010 00:13 - 71.56.6.*
- January 02 2010 14:14 - 91.98.9.*
- January 03 2010 01:23 - 88.87.4.*
- January 04 2010 23:22 - 79.224.172.*
- January 05 2010 06:16 - 65.55.110.*Internet search strings used to find
Cryptome

Finally, a semi-obscure phrase from the that was put into a search engine -
complete with the original typo.

"architectural engineering in miidle east" - it may appear in the logs as
"architectural+engineering+in+miidle+east"

Conclusion

All of this information should be readily verifiable by John and Deborah at
Cryptome, demonstrating that each of the pieces of the slide could have
been created without the benefit of a surveillance program or large budget.
In other words, the guilty knowledge implied by the accuracy of the slide
can imply things other than being guilt of surveillance.
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From zen at freedbms.net  Fri Oct  2 21:11:04 2015
From: zen at freedbms.net (Zenaan Harkness)
Date: Sat, 3 Oct 2015 04:11:04 +0000
Subject: Snowden on the Twitters
In-Reply-To: <560ED65A.1000408@riseup.net>
References: <CAD2Ti2-ZiZDAR_mLFAQqcgLVyyvrv2o2Kx3ri+jBK3o7aUF6QA@mail.gmail.com>
 <560ce15f.0212370a.97fe1.ffffa6e2@mx.google.com>
 <560D4B5F.3010305@riseup.net> <1459598.CCgg234MoK@lapuntu>
 <560ED65A.1000408@riseup.net>
Message-ID: <CAOsGNSQfFnN4ov2aSvZs_d84cLDMUeXFBvvugjok41wZpfDKNA@mail.gmail.com>

On 10/2/15, Douglas Lucas <dal at riseup.net> wrote:
> On 10/02/2015 05:56 AM, rysiek wrote:
>> Dnia czwartek, 1 października 2015 08:03:59 Razer pisze:
>>> On 10/01/2015 12:36 AM, Juan wrote:
>>>> On Thu, 01 Oct 2015 07:45:26 +0100
>>>>
>>>> oshwm <oshwm at openmailbox.org> wrote:
>>>>> " All I wanted was for the public to be able to have a say in
>>>>> how they are governed.">>
>>>> snowden can't be THAT stupid...?
>>>
>>> He believe in the 'system'.
>>>
>>> RR
>>>
>>> “Any movement that seeks social justice through political
>>> involvement and attempting to hold public officials
>>> democratically accountable is doomed to failure. The only real
>>> way to achieve social justice is by bypassing the state, treating
>>> it as irrelevant, and building the kind of society we want
>>> without the government’s permission.”
>>
>> Yo dawg, I herd yo don't liek the state, so yo should build one of
>> your own for others not to liek.
>
> Some want to end the state, and others want to be statesmen. Lately
> WikiLeaks has been retweeting a picture of Jimmy Carter (I suppose
> because the addition of an image is supposed to be extra convincing)
> with a quotation from the former president to the effect that he
> didn't deplore Cablegate. It is annoying that US presidents are treated
> as people whose praise should be sought, along the lines of
> "If Jimmy Carter doesn't agree with it, it's not my revolution."

:D good one! But I insist it must be varied:

If Juan don't agree with it, it sure ain't my revolution.
Z




From zen at freedbms.net  Fri Oct  2 21:36:06 2015
From: zen at freedbms.net (Zenaan Harkness)
Date: Sat, 3 Oct 2015 04:36:06 +0000
Subject: Snowden on the Twitters
In-Reply-To: <560ee12e.03c98c0a.63f6c.ffffda2e@mx.google.com>
References: <CAD2Ti2-ZiZDAR_mLFAQqcgLVyyvrv2o2Kx3ri+jBK3o7aUF6QA@mail.gmail.com>
 <1459598.CCgg234MoK@lapuntu> <560EADF5.80207@riseup.net>
 <8253018.hPbHOlQF0S@lapuntu>
 <560ee12e.03c98c0a.63f6c.ffffda2e@mx.google.com>
Message-ID: <CAOsGNSTY3xsqam_3EBsAaSckRFjXs+LefdaYTnys0b4E54yh2Q@mail.gmail.com>

On 10/2/15, Juan <juan.g71 at gmail.com> wrote:
> 	You know, the first requirement to win an argument is to pick
> 	the right side. And statism isn't the right side of the
> 	argument.

More like, fatally flawed.

Here and there I wonder of possible constitutional clauses
(/amendments) which might somehow "balance" the degradation of the
state, whilst maintaining it's potential or claimed benefits:
 - eliminate politician salaries (or at least set them to a maximum of
the mean (not median) of government subsistence handouts (now -that-
might cause a rapid shift to "a living wage for everyone no
exceptions" :)
 - criminalise campaign donations (like HTTPS, raising the bar?)
 - do a Switzerland/ Israeli "every child must learn to competently
use a machine gun, and every household must possess at least one"
 - legalise at least all plants, probably all drugs
 - more?


> 	re : 'division of power' - the incentives for people who have
> 	power lead them to COOPERATE to maintain or gain more power, not
> 	to 'check' each other's power. ABC of economics.

So how does political anarchy improve on handling this 'problem', or
is it not a problem but a reality we must accept?


>> etc)
>> and build upon them or try implementing them in a more functional
>> way, or... go the "ignore it altogether" route, end up reinventing
>> the wheel, and arriving at a not-all- that-functional variation of it.
>
> 	So, you are willing to 'cooperate' with the current criminals
> 	and justify them while accusing a bunch of anarchist of 'maybe'
> 	doing something that goes against their principles?

It is human nature to gather with or cooperate with those who hold
power, to the extent that it is in one's self interest - just as you
say above about those already holding power cooperating amongst
themselves.

I don't think any particular political system can solve the problem of
the base nature of humans, although I do think some systems may have
better prospects for social stability over some period of time -
although more fundamentally is the state of consciousness of "we
humans" - and educating the next generation to strive for something
higher than the pursuit of greed.

Re education, I do recommend John Taylor Gatto - I read one book a few
years ago and promptly ordered a few more to read, he is that
incisive, on topic and speaks from personal experience 'battling the
USA education system'.

Regards
Zenaan




From zen at freedbms.net  Fri Oct  2 23:52:49 2015
From: zen at freedbms.net (Zenaan Harkness)
Date: Sat, 3 Oct 2015 06:52:49 +0000
Subject: Moderate Syrian Rebel Application Form
Message-ID: <CAOsGNSSZ62pZdFJ1-+vUchk33Zsd=aHxj=DPMkQ04rCGD474zg@mail.gmail.com>

http://russia-insider.com/en/politics/moderate-syrian-rebel-application-form/ri10110

WASHINGTON (The Borowitz Report)—After announcing, on Thursday, that
it would seek $500 million to help “train and equip appropriately
vetted elements of the moderate Syrian armed opposition,” the White
House today posted the following Moderate Syrian Rebel Application
Form:

Welcome to the United States’ Moderate Syrian Rebel Vetting Process.
To see if you qualify for $500 million in American weapons, please
choose an answer to the following questions:

As a Syrian rebel, I think the word or phrase that best describes me is:
A) Moderate
B) Very moderate
C) Crazy moderate
D) Other

I became a Syrian rebel because I believe in:
A) Truth
B) Justice
C) The American Way
D) Creating an Islamic caliphate

If I were given a highly lethal automatic weapon by the United States, I would:
A) Only kill exactly the people that the United States wanted me to kill
B) Try to kill the right people, with the caveat that I have never
used an automatic weapon before
C) Kill people only after submitting them to a rigorous vetting process
D) Immediately let the weapon fall into the wrong hands

I have previously received weapons from:
A) Al Qaeda
B) The Taliban
C) North Korea
D) I did not receive weapons from any of them because after they
vetted me I was deemed way too moderate

I consider ISIS:
A) An existential threat to Iraq
B) An existential threat to Syria
C) An existential threat to Iraq and Syria
D) The people who will pick up my American weapon after I drop it and run away

Complete the following sentence. “American weapons are…”
A) Always a good thing to randomly add to any international hot spot
B) Exactly what this raging civil war has been missing for the past three years
C) Best when used moderately
D) Super easy to resell online

Thank you for completing the Moderate Syrian Rebel Application Form.
We will process your application in the next one to two business days.
Please indicate a current mailing address where you would like your
weapons to be sent. If there is no one to sign for them we will leave
them outside the front door.




From guninski at guninski.com  Fri Oct  2 22:36:30 2015
From: guninski at guninski.com (Georgi Guninski)
Date: Sat, 3 Oct 2015 08:36:30 +0300
Subject: Stealing Amazon cloud RSA keys cross VM
Message-ID: <20151003053630.GA2565@sivokote.iziade.m$>

http://www.theregister.co.uk/2015/10/02/amazon_boards_windows_against_leet_keystealing_neighbours/

Amazon has patched a vulnerability that could have let users to steal
the RSA keys of other co-located customers.

The paper:
https://eprint.iacr.org/2015/898.pdf




From zen at freedbms.net  Sat Oct  3 02:12:50 2015
From: zen at freedbms.net (Zenaan Harkness)
Date: Sat, 3 Oct 2015 09:12:50 +0000
Subject: Geopolitical shifts in action - the world she's a changin'
Message-ID: <CAOsGNSQOd6EEsYV+UnH=W1bsAqzE1orF9ajk+6OgOENUm9iaEA@mail.gmail.com>

More signs of the changing times we be thankful for, and surely the
world needs it:

http://russia-insider.com/en/politics/putins-global-game-changer-un-general-assembly/ri10128
"Putin’s Global Game Changer at the UN General Assembly"

Enjoy,
Zenaan




From guninski at guninski.com  Sat Oct  3 00:21:43 2015
From: guninski at guninski.com (Georgi Guninski)
Date: Sat, 3 Oct 2015 10:21:43 +0300
Subject: What is this "Weird garbled Windows 7 update"?
In-Reply-To: <2148026.leGbH5TIhM@lapuntu>
References: <20151002060818.GB2533@sivokote.iziade.m$>
 <CAHWD2rJPx5X4ypX=4isqjRXhMuFSn+30cSC-F4P1bnzdpLvOJw@mail.gmail.com>
 <20151002150524.GE2533@sivokote.iziade.m$>
 <2148026.leGbH5TIhM@lapuntu>
Message-ID: <20151003072143.GB2565@sivokote.iziade.m$>

On Fri, Oct 02, 2015 at 06:21:47PM +0200, rysiek wrote:
> > As an aside, the "garbage text" might just be some easy to break ASCII?
> > friendly cypher/obfuscation.
> 
> Base52? Can't be bothered to write a base52 decoder. ;)
>

Found this on reddit. There is log in the thread.

https://www.reddit.com/r/techsupport/comments/3mykv1/weird_windows_update/

Weird Windows update
gYxseNjwafVPfgsoHnzLblmmAxZUiOnGcchqEAEwjyxwjUIfpXfJQcdLapTmFaqHGCFsdvpLarmPJLOZYMEILGNIPwNOgEazuBVJcyVjBRL

Installation date: ‎30/‎09/‎2015 12:52

Installation status: Failed

Error details: Code 8024600A

Update type: Important

qQMphgyOoFUxFLfNprOUQpHS

More information: [https:]//hckSLpGtvi.PguhWDz.fuVOl.gov
[https:]//jNt.JFnFA.Jigf.xnzMQAFnZ.edu

Help and Support: [https:]//IIKaR.ktBDARxd.plepVV.PGetGeG.lfIYQIHCN.mil





From juan.g71 at gmail.com  Sat Oct  3 16:10:10 2015
From: juan.g71 at gmail.com (Juan)
Date: Sat, 3 Oct 2015 20:10:10 -0300
Subject: Snowden on the Twitters
In-Reply-To: <CAOsGNSTY3xsqam_3EBsAaSckRFjXs+LefdaYTnys0b4E54yh2Q@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAD2Ti2-ZiZDAR_mLFAQqcgLVyyvrv2o2Kx3ri+jBK3o7aUF6QA@mail.gmail.com>
 <1459598.CCgg234MoK@lapuntu> <560EADF5.80207@riseup.net>
 <8253018.hPbHOlQF0S@lapuntu>
 <560ee12e.03c98c0a.63f6c.ffffda2e@mx.google.com>
 <CAOsGNSTY3xsqam_3EBsAaSckRFjXs+LefdaYTnys0b4E54yh2Q@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <56105f15.0fc6370a.c7a49.ffff8d84@mx.google.com>

On Sat, 3 Oct 2015 04:36:06 +0000
Zenaan Harkness <zen at freedbms.net> wrote:

> On 10/2/15, Juan <juan.g71 at gmail.com> wrote:
> > 	You know, the first requirement to win an argument is to
> > pick the right side. And statism isn't the right side of the
> > 	argument.
> 
> More like, fatally flawed.
> 
> Here and there I wonder of possible constitutional clauses
> (/amendments) which might somehow "balance" the degradation of the
> state, whilst maintaining it's potential or claimed benefits:
>  - eliminate politician salaries (or at least set them to a maximum of
> the mean (not median) of government subsistence handouts (now -that-
> might cause a rapid shift to "a living wage for everyone no
> exceptions" :)
>  - criminalise campaign donations (like HTTPS, raising the bar?)
>  - do a Switzerland/ Israeli "every child must learn to competently
> use a machine gun, and every household must possess at least one"
>  - legalise at least all plants, probably all drugs
>  - more?
> 


	Problem is, even a sensible statist 'constitution' or
	legal system is managed by the state. Things can look good on
	paper, but who's going to enforce the sensible laws? 

	"all men are created equal" - except slaves. 


> 
> > 	re : 'division of power' - the incentives for people who
> > have power lead them to COOPERATE to maintain or gain more power,
> > not to 'check' each other's power. ABC of economics.
> 
> So how does political anarchy improve on handling this 'problem', or
> is it not a problem but a reality we must accept?


	The problem remains, in general terms. People can cooperate for
	good or bad puroposes. 

	But at least anarchists aren't naive enough to believe that
	different factions within the mafia 'check' each other. Sure,
	there may be some internal quarreling in a mafia organization
	or in a government (they are the same thing), but the internal
	quarreling is not going to significantly prevent the government
	from doing all the bad things governments do. 

	Anyway, anarchists handle the problem of criminal cooperation
	inside a government by getting rid of the government. 



> 
> 
> >> etc)
> >> and build upon them or try implementing them in a more functional
> >> way, or... go the "ignore it altogether" route, end up reinventing
> >> the wheel, and arriving at a not-all- that-functional variation of
> >> it.
> >
> > 	So, you are willing to 'cooperate' with the current
> > criminals and justify them while accusing a bunch of anarchist of
> > 'maybe' doing something that goes against their principles?
> 
> It is human nature to gather with or cooperate with those who hold
> power, to the extent that it is in one's self interest - just as you
> say above about those already holding power cooperating amongst
> themselves.
> 
> I don't think any particular political system can solve the problem of
> the base nature of humans, 

	True, but some systems are...absurd, even when judged by
	their own flawed standards. 

	Democracy : people are not smart enough to govern themselves at
	the individual level, but, they are smart enough to
	elect...dumb 'representatives'? Something doesn't add up...


> although I do think some systems may have
> better prospects for social stability over some period of time -
> although more fundamentally is the state of consciousness of "we
> humans" - and educating the next generation to strive for something
> higher than the pursuit of greed.
> 
> Re education, I do recommend John Taylor Gatto 

	I've read stuff from Gatto. He's pretty good. What's really
	amazing about him is that he worked for tens of years for the
	US public indoctrin I mean US public education system to finally
	realize how fucked up the system is. 



>- I read one book a few
> years ago and promptly ordered a few more to read, he is that
> incisive, on topic and speaks from personal experience 'battling the
> USA education system'.
> 
> Regards
> Zenaan




From grarpamp at gmail.com  Sat Oct  3 18:43:52 2015
From: grarpamp at gmail.com (grarpamp)
Date: Sat, 3 Oct 2015 21:43:52 -0400
Subject: Snowden on the Twitters
In-Reply-To: <560EADF5.80207@riseup.net>
References: <CAD2Ti2-ZiZDAR_mLFAQqcgLVyyvrv2o2Kx3ri+jBK3o7aUF6QA@mail.gmail.com>
 <560ce15f.0212370a.97fe1.ffffa6e2@mx.google.com> <560D4B5F.3010305@riseup.net>
 <1459598.CCgg234MoK@lapuntu> <560EADF5.80207@riseup.net>
Message-ID: <CAD2Ti2-XGdeykC7Ji6wGesPq0rY7vLvjoBu05rm8gphL4bvGpQ@mail.gmail.com>

>>> “Any movement that seeks social justice through political involvement
>>> and attempting to hold public officials democratically accountable is
>>> doomed to failure. The only real way to achieve social justice is by
>>> bypassing the state, treating it as irrelevant, and building the kind of
>>> society we want without the government’s permission.”

Every government ever tried in past history has been a failure.
Many governments in current history are no more than tweaks
on the past and are thus doomed to failure in time. The ones
that aren't tweaks have questionable prospects at coming close
to the 1200+ years of Ancient Rome (which failed). The US is
bankrupt and pissed away all it's political and other capital
the last 15 years and is now being eclipsed by Communists
(a large part of bRiCs), lol. The history of government is failure.
In the future, try doing without. The worst you're get is failure,
which is no loss because odds-wise that's what you're in already,
and likely to choose by default on any reboot... do you really
want to subject your great X 10^n grandkids to that cycle again?

Politically this picture is now reversed...
https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/5/53/Gorbachev_and_Reagan_1988-5.jpg

WTF all these politik [sub]threads have to do with cypherpunk,
can we please have moar cypher and moar punk nao and less
pussy government asskissers and debaters?




From juan.g71 at gmail.com  Sat Oct  3 18:16:11 2015
From: juan.g71 at gmail.com (Juan)
Date: Sat, 3 Oct 2015 22:16:11 -0300
Subject: USA government debt ceiling
In-Reply-To: <CAOsGNSSpW6H5POz=xF5NpNc6Xvie_XoTStKtgDnThrE5Ys9Uqw@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAOsGNSSpW6H5POz=xF5NpNc6Xvie_XoTStKtgDnThrE5Ys9Uqw@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <56107c9f.862b8c0a.d0ce8.ffff9b26@mx.google.com>


> USA gov froze its government debt in March this year since they hit
> the 'statutory maximum' of $18,113,000,080,959.35 (yep, and the 35c).
> USGov is now in an extraordinary measures situation to be looked at
> again October 30, 2015.
> http://www.cnsnews.com/news/article/terence-p-jeffrey/150-days-treasury-says-debt-has-been-frozen-18112975000000
> 
> This has happened a few times before,
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_debt_ceiling
> 
> but I wonder if there are some real limits being reached, where
> they'll be unable to practically raise the USGov debt ceiling? Anyone
> have further info on this?


	That's quite funny. Did you read my mind? Are you the NSA? =) 


	I was about to use the US debt 'ceiling' as an example of what
	kind of joke 'limited' government is =)

	(back to replying to your previous message). 
















From grarpamp at gmail.com  Sat Oct  3 19:23:42 2015
From: grarpamp at gmail.com (grarpamp)
Date: Sat, 3 Oct 2015 22:23:42 -0400
Subject: USA government debt ceiling
In-Reply-To: <1748203140.75449.1443922323370.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com>
References: <CAOsGNSSpW6H5POz=xF5NpNc6Xvie_XoTStKtgDnThrE5Ys9Uqw@mail.gmail.com>
 <1748203140.75449.1443922323370.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <CAD2Ti28rKjMJCyCQYE_dO4zC3u6wuRcUu=Xy06_t57Sih0=u1Q@mail.gmail.com>

On Sat, Oct 3, 2015 at 9:32 PM, jim bell <jdb10987 at yahoo.com> wrote:
> (say, $500 billion), Congress should raise it $XYZ-million per day.   Thus

Sorry, but debt is supposed to be something incurred in a time of need
which you are generally able to repay in a mutually acceptable timeframe.
When you start pushing 100yr schedules, you're approaching lifetimes
of humans and govts themselves, funny that structuring ;-)

The US can't repay $18T to anyone in 10 or 25 or maybe even 50 years
without cutting everything else it does to near zero. And that doesn't
include it's unfunded liablilties.

And for the idiots out there... paying debt out of, or mooting debt
via, "growth"
is unrealistic... the geopolitical competitive status (and the closed
cycle nature
of) the planet precludes that kind of growth. Interest rates are backwards,
housing is still rape, etc. Economists these days have to be liek WTF bro?
Have fun, suckers...

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Financial_position_of_the_United_States

> a weekly vote of
> Congress, one in which only a 50% vote in both houses is necessary and
> sufficient, cannot be filibustered and one which Obama doesn't get to veto.
> ...

The Govt doesn't agree to your terms.
It will have to get seriously fubar before it does.
And at that point you're done anyways.
History...




From grarpamp at gmail.com  Sat Oct  3 20:02:38 2015
From: grarpamp at gmail.com (grarpamp)
Date: Sat, 3 Oct 2015 23:02:38 -0400
Subject: freedom.press, also the firstlook/intercept...
In-Reply-To: <CAHWD2rKqR0HfWs9s+wJG-mshadO26mZ8XOte2fzPTEFAStbMQg@mail.gmail.com>
References: <20150930200213.GE13534@ctrlc.hu> <560DAB81.7060800@pilobilus.net>
 <20151001220923.A0DFC6801A8@frontend2.nyi.internal>
 <20151002085841.GD2533@sivokote.iziade.m$>
 <CAHWD2rKqR0HfWs9s+wJG-mshadO26mZ8XOte2fzPTEFAStbMQg@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAD2Ti2-E4KHZEGgBKc-=iD2HThjgYRyCVAvfeywTsHL2JEVcmQ@mail.gmail.com>

On Fri, Oct 2, 2015 at 10:28 AM, Lodewijk andré de la porte
<l at odewijk.nl> wrote:
> Which relates as to why I lost a lot of personal photo's; I didn't use the
> cloud backup feature. Now nobody has my pictures, except maybe whomever
> stole my phone* =(

Don't use a phone that doesn't have sdcard, or at least usb or scp over wifi.
Don't take pictures of self, family, friends or business you care about
on hardware (obviously baseband) which doesn't care about you.
Bonus: since the masses are ditching standalone cameras for phones,
used cameras are now dirt cheap, anonymous, and come prefilled with
all sorts of fun images "deleted/formatted" from their DOS FAT.




From grarpamp at gmail.com  Sat Oct  3 20:25:56 2015
From: grarpamp at gmail.com (grarpamp)
Date: Sat, 3 Oct 2015 23:25:56 -0400
Subject: freedom.press, also the firstlook/intercept...
In-Reply-To: <CAHWD2rKqR0HfWs9s+wJG-mshadO26mZ8XOte2fzPTEFAStbMQg@mail.gmail.com>
References: <20150930200213.GE13534@ctrlc.hu> <560DAB81.7060800@pilobilus.net>
 <20151001220923.A0DFC6801A8@frontend2.nyi.internal>
 <20151002085841.GD2533@sivokote.iziade.m$>
 <CAHWD2rKqR0HfWs9s+wJG-mshadO26mZ8XOte2fzPTEFAStbMQg@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAD2Ti29ADwgio82MDDxu8F_WKSsDcvZLWAYFsp=eEZfTa1ikSw@mail.gmail.com>

On Fri, Oct 2, 2015 at 10:28 AM, Lodewijk andré de la porte
<l at odewijk.nl> wrote:
> 2015-10-02 10:58 GMT+02:00 Georgi Guninski <guninski at guninski.com>:
>> btw, does rowhammer escape VM? (appears to me yes).

To affect your own instance, probably. In others, at least those
(or under VMM's) that wipe wipe malloc before use, probably not.

> * full disk crypto is not a thing in androidland ;(

Are not the Linux and FreeBSD slowly approaching (with
droid/hardware blob compatibility shims) the ability to run
natively on certain hardware such that FDE is theirs and not
droid's (baseband, and open chip fabs, excepting)?

http://www.freebsd.org/platforms/arm.html
https://wiki.freebsd.org/201506DevSummit/ARMv8
https://www.google.nl/search?q=linux+qualcomm+snapdragon




From grarpamp at gmail.com  Sat Oct  3 20:36:14 2015
From: grarpamp at gmail.com (grarpamp)
Date: Sat, 3 Oct 2015 23:36:14 -0400
Subject: freedom.press, also the firstlook/intercept...
In-Reply-To: <20151002220054.9D6006801D2@frontend2.nyi.internal>
References: <20150930200213.GE13534@ctrlc.hu> <560DAB81.7060800@pilobilus.net>
 <20151001220923.A0DFC6801A8@frontend2.nyi.internal>
 <20151002085841.GD2533@sivokote.iziade.m$>
 <CAHWD2rKqR0HfWs9s+wJG-mshadO26mZ8XOte2fzPTEFAStbMQg@mail.gmail.com>
 <20151002220054.9D6006801D2@frontend2.nyi.internal>
Message-ID: <CAD2Ti28=QiPxY+pZWf7T7OnXXEB_SPR7Dx1Ya_e=rO5xbJggWA@mail.gmail.com>

On Fri, Oct 2, 2015 at 6:01 PM, Shelley <shelley at misanthropia.org> wrote:
> Do you mean the same lusers who broadcast the fact that they're on vacation
> all over Failbook, post photos with GPS enabled and are then surprised when
> their home is burglarized?

Same for obituaries with calling hours, next of kin and lineage ID'd
and blasted out over the media, etc.
People are stupid, even people who care about OPSEC.
Perfection is "hard", and must be a "lifestyle" of minimization
and excercises and engineering, both in real life and in the mind.
Think strategically, practice daily.




From grarpamp at gmail.com  Sat Oct  3 20:46:56 2015
From: grarpamp at gmail.com (grarpamp)
Date: Sat, 3 Oct 2015 23:46:56 -0400
Subject: freedom.press, also the firstlook/intercept...
In-Reply-To: <CAHWD2rKgx=6QUeT+R7zUr66sNU=sVgraiGd99A19nisnQ1ti5g@mail.gmail.com>
References: <20150930200213.GE13534@ctrlc.hu> <560DAB81.7060800@pilobilus.net>
 <20151001220923.A0DFC6801A8@frontend2.nyi.internal>
 <20151002085841.GD2533@sivokote.iziade.m$>
 <CAHWD2rKqR0HfWs9s+wJG-mshadO26mZ8XOte2fzPTEFAStbMQg@mail.gmail.com>
 <20151002220054.9D6006801D2@frontend2.nyi.internal>
 <CAHWD2rKgx=6QUeT+R7zUr66sNU=sVgraiGd99A19nisnQ1ti5g@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAD2Ti29KhhOCJXgEX-1ruuss-YwM7Bt_-=qYUBo38kkRmYff1w@mail.gmail.com>

> I'm also aware of the exceedingly detrimental effect copyright law has had
> on general filesharing. Somehow information controls, huge dangers to
> freedom of speech, are permissible because ideas aren't free but instead
> licensable at owner's whims.

This wouldn't be a problem if the masses would simply recognize
and move their operations to anonymous encrypted networks such
as I2P, Phantom, Tor... then at least you would throw true "freedom
of speech" up against the wall to be tested...
(yes, excepting these fill-traffic-less networks current ability to be
outed by passives, and generally exploited by actives.)




From grarpamp at gmail.com  Sat Oct  3 20:54:45 2015
From: grarpamp at gmail.com (grarpamp)
Date: Sat, 3 Oct 2015 23:54:45 -0400
Subject: freedom.press, also the firstlook/intercept...
In-Reply-To: <CAHWD2rKgx=6QUeT+R7zUr66sNU=sVgraiGd99A19nisnQ1ti5g@mail.gmail.com>
References: <20150930200213.GE13534@ctrlc.hu> <560DAB81.7060800@pilobilus.net>
 <20151001220923.A0DFC6801A8@frontend2.nyi.internal>
 <20151002085841.GD2533@sivokote.iziade.m$>
 <CAHWD2rKqR0HfWs9s+wJG-mshadO26mZ8XOte2fzPTEFAStbMQg@mail.gmail.com>
 <20151002220054.9D6006801D2@frontend2.nyi.internal>
 <CAHWD2rKgx=6QUeT+R7zUr66sNU=sVgraiGd99A19nisnQ1ti5g@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAD2Ti281PNmvnJy0--Jbn5jxZWLkRrvxLnrx9=7m6zQZdxxGoA@mail.gmail.com>

> I actually lost (a test server's) data before because I crypted it and
> locked it up - and forgot the horrendously complicated extra-long passkeys.
> Since then I opt for something easier to remember/derive, because everything
> else is detrimental to security. Making physical notes means "import
> sec.physical" which is a foolhardy proposition.

How hard is it really to, upon boot of a physical local storage server,
to remember to concatenate 12'th line of the 12'th page of the first
12 books on your bookshelf?
Or to at least write the fucker down so that phrase remains
airgapped (though obviously final key still present in core)?




From grarpamp at gmail.com  Sat Oct  3 21:18:51 2015
From: grarpamp at gmail.com (grarpamp)
Date: Sun, 4 Oct 2015 00:18:51 -0400
Subject: USA government debt ceiling
In-Reply-To: <371358186.106992.1443929051430.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com>
References: <CAD2Ti28rKjMJCyCQYE_dO4zC3u6wuRcUu=Xy06_t57Sih0=u1Q@mail.gmail.com>
 <371358186.106992.1443929051430.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <CAD2Ti2_Tg2VFo+y22YkcBPOHfNOx44BKg-hFzvBjdWX5u3AA1A@mail.gmail.com>

On Sat, Oct 3, 2015 at 11:24 PM, jim bell <jdb10987 at yahoo.com> wrote:
> I think you misunderstood me.  I was not somehow "approving" debt,
> especially not debt of the magnitude of 18 trillion.
> Rather, I objected to the practice of raising the debt limit in large
> instantaneous jumps, in contrast to small, daily raises.

Daily, monthly, yearly, quadrienally... what's the difference?
It's all amortization and signature games under insufficient backing.

> And, I also objected to NOT using the debt limit as a further lever by
> Congress on President Obama, and the minority Democrats in Congress:
> Congress should allow a daily debt limit rise which is coupled, soon enough,
> by limits on spending which Obama cannot veto, and which the Democrats in
> Congress cannot filibuster.

US Congress and their pork doesn't give a fuck, their lives and that of their
families are cushily secured past any revolution or massive refactoring...
unless they're assassinated in the process ;-) And the President just
lives to spend all that is given and ask for more, soundbites excepting.

Though hearing what, if any, the supreme judiciary has to say
about all this, even in a historical context, would be interesting.
Especially since most extant countries on the planet started out
on the "incorruptible" gold standard.




From l at odewijk.nl  Sat Oct  3 15:24:15 2015
From: l at odewijk.nl (=?UTF-8?Q?Lodewijk_andr=C3=A9_de_la_porte?=)
Date: Sun, 4 Oct 2015 00:24:15 +0200
Subject: freedom.press, also the firstlook/intercept...
In-Reply-To: <20151002220054.9D6006801D2@frontend2.nyi.internal>
References: <20150930200213.GE13534@ctrlc.hu> <560DAB81.7060800@pilobilus.net>
 <20151001220923.A0DFC6801A8@frontend2.nyi.internal>
 <20151002085841.GD2533@sivokote.iziade.m$>
 <CAHWD2rKqR0HfWs9s+wJG-mshadO26mZ8XOte2fzPTEFAStbMQg@mail.gmail.com>
 <20151002220054.9D6006801D2@frontend2.nyi.internal>
Message-ID: <CAHWD2rKgx=6QUeT+R7zUr66sNU=sVgraiGd99A19nisnQ1ti5g@mail.gmail.com>

2015-10-03 0:01 GMT+02:00 Shelley <shelley at misanthropia.org>:

> Using one of those file hosting sites provides a greater level of
>> convenience. Perhaps so much greater that without that level of
>> convenience
>> it would hardly be possible at all.
>>
>
> I'm surprised to hear that come from you.  I've never used a cloud backup
> and the most I've ever lost is a day or two's worth of data/ media.  I have
> redundant backups.  It's not difficult (it truly isn't, I'm not trying to
> be snotty.)


*possible at all *for them*

I'm trying to argue we need more convenient + secure
services/applications/workflows/etc. because apparently security wasn't
worth it for the reporters.

I'm also aware of the exceedingly detrimental effect copyright law has had
on general filesharing. Somehow information controls, huge dangers to
freedom of speech, are permissible because ideas aren't free but instead
licensable at owner's whims.


Reg backups - I think you have a far better way of managing things than I
do. It was actually on my mind to fix within the week (earlier if I'd have
found a client-side-crypto-cloud-backup-thing). There's no excuse really -
I just kept delaying it because I never /actually/ lost data before (I
always had a backup somewhere). I've never been very systematic about it
and it feels totally off that it isn't already automated in our operating
systems. (/vent... losing data hurts)


> The consumers don't care to invest in
>> security very much, in fact, hardly at all.
>>
>
> Do you mean the same lusers who broadcast the fact that they're on
> vacation all over Failbook, post photos with GPS enabled and are then
> surprised when their home is burglarized?


I mean so many of them that we do not have much security now. (btw:
geotagging is cool, it's bad for security, but so are all pictures)


> * full disk crypto is not a thing in androidland ;(
>>
>
> Sadly, it's not a "thing" anywhere right now.  Not when EC has been
> intentionally weakened, etc.  Hell, even if crApple did have true full disc
> encryption, I wouldn't use their closed source crapware.


I actually lost (a test server's) data before because I crypted it and
locked it up - and forgot the horrendously complicated extra-long passkeys.
Since then I opt for something easier to remember/derive, because
everything else is detrimental to security. Making physical notes means
"import sec.physical" which is a foolhardy proposition.


> tl;dr: javascript could be fine if we'd have secure software - as it is
>> HTML/CSS/images/videos/etc are all also dangerous. Top level security
>> seems
>> (and often is) useless - therefore we don't really have it (even when we'd
>> like it so very much) unless we keep ourselves from essential features.
>>
>
> "Essential" is very much a subjective term.  I don't mind most of my web
> browsing experience looking like plaintext (in fact, I much prefer it.)
> However, I understand most people do not want to use the web in that way.
> We all make concessions we consider acceptable, sacrificing
> privacy/security for convenience.  I'm guilty of it, too.  Anyone with a
> smartphone and a credit/debit card is as well.


It makes you slower. Incompatibility makes you slower. Slowness makes you
irrelevant. Slowness equals failure. (depending on how much slower you'll
be, of course) I say this because it sometimes seems strategically so.
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From zen at freedbms.net  Sat Oct  3 17:41:07 2015
From: zen at freedbms.net (Zenaan Harkness)
Date: Sun, 4 Oct 2015 00:41:07 +0000
Subject: Snowden on the Twitters
In-Reply-To: <56105f15.0fc6370a.c7a49.ffff8d84@mx.google.com>
References: <CAD2Ti2-ZiZDAR_mLFAQqcgLVyyvrv2o2Kx3ri+jBK3o7aUF6QA@mail.gmail.com>
 <1459598.CCgg234MoK@lapuntu> <560EADF5.80207@riseup.net>
 <8253018.hPbHOlQF0S@lapuntu>
 <560ee12e.03c98c0a.63f6c.ffffda2e@mx.google.com>
 <CAOsGNSTY3xsqam_3EBsAaSckRFjXs+LefdaYTnys0b4E54yh2Q@mail.gmail.com>
 <56105f15.0fc6370a.c7a49.ffff8d84@mx.google.com>
Message-ID: <CAOsGNSR6jw6m+r2erR6=s0YNSMy7nk2g0UiusyvkLHWovKxkmA@mail.gmail.com>

On 10/3/15, Juan <juan.g71 at gmail.com> wrote:
> On Sat, 3 Oct 2015 04:36:06 +0000
> Zenaan Harkness <zen at freedbms.net> wrote:
>
>> On 10/2/15, Juan <juan.g71 at gmail.com> wrote:
>> > 	You know, the first requirement to win an argument is to
>> > pick the right side. And statism isn't the right side of the
>> > 	argument.
>>
>> More like, fatally flawed.
>>
>> Here and there I wonder of possible constitutional clauses
>> (/amendments) which might somehow "balance" the degradation of the
>> state, whilst maintaining it's potential or claimed benefits:
>>  - eliminate politician salaries (or at least set them to a maximum of
>> the mean (not median) of government subsistence handouts (now -that-
>> might cause a rapid shift to "a living wage for everyone no
>> exceptions" :)
>>  - criminalise campaign donations (like HTTPS, raising the bar?)
>>  - do a Switzerland/ Israeli "every child must learn to competently
>> use a machine gun, and every household must possess at least one"
>>  - legalise at least all plants, probably all drugs
>>  - more?
>
> 	Problem is, even a sensible statist 'constitution' or
> 	legal system is managed by the state. Things can look good on
> 	paper, but who's going to enforce the sensible laws?
>
> 	"all men are created equal" - except slaves.

Sounds like a prime beef you have with any constitution is its (lack
of) honesty. Perhaps we can work on that :)


>> > 	re : 'division of power' - the incentives for people who
>> > have power lead them to COOPERATE to maintain or gain more power,
>> > not to 'check' each other's power. ABC of economics.
>>
>> So how does political anarchy improve on handling this 'problem', or
>> is it not a problem but a reality we must accept?
>
> 	The problem remains, in general terms. People can cooperate for
> 	good or bad puroposes.
>
> 	But at least anarchists aren't naive enough to believe that
> 	different factions within the mafia 'check' each other. Sure,
> 	there may be some internal quarreling in a mafia organization
> 	or in a government (they are the same thing), but the internal
> 	quarreling is not going to significantly prevent the government
> 	from doing all the bad things governments do.
>
> 	Anyway, anarchists handle the problem of criminal cooperation
> 	inside a government by getting rid of the government.

I think you'd only see temporary 'improvement' and for a shorter time
than with constitutional statism.

Barring a general population wide increase in awareness/consciousness
of course - but the same can be said for any system.  I can keep my
mental door open to the possibility that political anarchism might
provide a longer duration of stability, or a greater likelihood for
"population awareness increase" but frankly I doubt that.

Of course we can argue that replacing one undemocratic mafia, e.g. the
British overlords that you guys kicked out, with another is
essentially "handling the problem of criminal cooperation inside a
government by getting rid of that government" as you say.

What are the metrics of national sanity?
- wealth levels?
- human intention towards family self sufficiency?
- stable military?
- deaths due to mafia faction fighting?
- actual freedoms which can be readily lived by individuals v.s.
proclaimed freedoms which have impenetrable and unspoken boundaries?
(speech, movement, association, growing food/plants, breeding, making
and doing anything which harms no one, choice v.s. imposition of any
medical procedure or substance, ...)

Why would political anarchy not descend into mafia coalitions, control
and actual anarchy, more quickly than constitutional statism?
Over here in Australia we have had pretty good run re 'political
stability', despite more and more total ratbags who now dominate -
yes, in military we've been lapdogs to USAgov in Vietnam, Iraq etc,
but internally we had say 80 years of prosperity and 'stability' - I
can imagine it having degraded more quickly if we had political
anarchism as our "foundation" rather than a "binding" constitution for
the mafia to target and having to spend effort to undermine.

Just like HTTPS - not actually providing its claims, just raising the
bar - does constitutional democracy also raise the bar?


>> >> etc)
>> >> and build upon them or try implementing them in a more functional
>> >> way, or... go the "ignore it altogether" route, end up reinventing
>> >> the wheel, and arriving at a not-all- that-functional variation of
>> >> it.
>> >
>> > 	So, you are willing to 'cooperate' with the current
>> > criminals and justify them while accusing a bunch of anarchist of
>> > 'maybe' doing something that goes against their principles?
>>
>> It is human nature to gather with or cooperate with those who hold
>> power, to the extent that it is in one's self interest - just as you
>> say above about those already holding power cooperating amongst
>> themselves.
>>
>> I don't think any particular political system can solve the problem of
>> the base nature of humans,
>
> 	True, but some systems are...absurd, even when judged by
> 	their own flawed standards.
>
> 	Democracy : people are not smart enough to govern themselves at
> 	the individual level, but, they are smart enough to
> 	elect...dumb 'representatives'? Something doesn't add up...

:)

Here we go - with constitutional statism, we need more truth in its
opening pages. How's this:

- we the people are, on the whole, sheep, willingly shorn for any 2
bit lie promise
- we are often greedy, self centered and small minded to an extreme
- we are by nature tribal, we live in fear, and we will sell our mates
for a dozen silver coins and our souls for a bowl of rice and the
promise of 'protection' from 'bad things'
- we are so pathetic, we will even continue to alternately vote in two
known political mafia gangs who persist in promising us everything
(housing, food, clothing, medical and 'protection') for nothing (just
a vote for them) whilst they continue to financially rape the country
through illegal and debt 'instruments'

- and so because we are so pathetic, we acknowledge that if we even
pretended to be able to live our own lives free of representatives and
a protectorate, we would very soon run screaming in fear to the
nearest gun-totin militaristic saviour

- in our well trodden and known to be doomed to total corruption
within at most a few decades, but ultimately placebo, if
self-deluding, concept of democracy, we seek to placate our own
madness and desire for an unachievable order in the world by declaring
another democratic religion for we, the sheeple, very soon to be shorn
of any and all of our achievements in this world by our new democratic
mafia overloards

How's that for an opener?

Certainly, we live in interesting times.

>> although I do think some systems may have
>> better prospects for social stability over some period of time -
>> although more fundamentally is the state of consciousness of "we
>> humans" - and educating the next generation to strive for something
>> higher than the pursuit of greed.
>>
>> Re education, I do recommend John Taylor Gatto
>
> 	I've read stuff from Gatto. He's pretty good. What's really
> 	amazing about him is that he worked for tens of years for the
> 	US public indoctrin I mean US public education system to finally
> 	realize how fucked up the system is.

And then wrote so in clear and enjoyable to read true stories. Good stuff.

Regards
Zenaan




From zen at freedbms.net  Sat Oct  3 17:41:14 2015
From: zen at freedbms.net (Zenaan Harkness)
Date: Sun, 4 Oct 2015 00:41:14 +0000
Subject: USA government debt ceiling
Message-ID: <CAOsGNSSpW6H5POz=xF5NpNc6Xvie_XoTStKtgDnThrE5Ys9Uqw@mail.gmail.com>

USA gov froze its government debt in March this year since they hit
the 'statutory maximum' of $18,113,000,080,959.35 (yep, and the 35c).
USGov is now in an extraordinary measures situation to be looked at
again October 30, 2015.
http://www.cnsnews.com/news/article/terence-p-jeffrey/150-days-treasury-says-debt-has-been-frozen-18112975000000

This has happened a few times before,
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_debt_ceiling

but I wonder if there are some real limits being reached, where
they'll be unable to practically raise the USGov debt ceiling? Anyone
have further info on this?




From jdb10987 at yahoo.com  Sat Oct  3 18:32:03 2015
From: jdb10987 at yahoo.com (jim bell)
Date: Sun, 4 Oct 2015 01:32:03 +0000 (UTC)
Subject: USA government debt ceiling
In-Reply-To: <CAOsGNSSpW6H5POz=xF5NpNc6Xvie_XoTStKtgDnThrE5Ys9Uqw@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAOsGNSSpW6H5POz=xF5NpNc6Xvie_XoTStKtgDnThrE5Ys9Uqw@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <1748203140.75449.1443922323370.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com>

From: Zenaan Harkness <zen at freedbms.net>>USA gov froze its government debt in March this year since they hit
>the 'statutory maximum' of $18,113,000,080,959.35 (yep, and the 35c).
>USGov is now in an extraordinary measures situation to be looked at
>again October 30, 2015.
>http://www.cnsnews.com/news/article/terence-p-jeffrey/150-days-treasury-says-debt-has-been-frozen-18112975000000
>This has happened a few times before,
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_debt_ceiling

>but I wonder if there are some real limits being reached, where
>they'll be unable to practically raise the USGov debt ceiling? Anyone
>have further info on this?
I have long believed that instead of raising the debt ceiling all at once (say, $500 billion), Congress should raise it $XYZ-million per day.   Thus government is not given a go-ahead to waste huge amounts of money at one time.  Further, I think that Congress could, and should, condition the continuation of this $XYZ-million/day increase on, say, a weekly vote of Congress, one in which only a 50% vote in both houses is necessary and sufficient, cannot be filibustered and one which Obama doesn't get to veto. Congress could also interpose any sorts of new restrictions on what this money can be spent for, meaning that any prior directives by Congress (especially by a Democrat-controlled Congress) would be null and void.  Effectively, Congress could completely re-write the budget without approval by either the Democrats or Obama.
The LACK of such a system is yet another reason I believe that John Boehner is a loser:  It is said that Congress has "the power of the purse", but since it doesn't use it, that is becoming a disaster.        Jim Bell


  
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From grarpamp at gmail.com  Sat Oct  3 22:39:24 2015
From: grarpamp at gmail.com (grarpamp)
Date: Sun, 4 Oct 2015 01:39:24 -0400
Subject: Fwd: FirefoxOS Security Engineer position is open
Message-ID: <CAD2Ti28LQBg-qkUn-eK1RyjS_JrCgH6saGox4ZH9Hxiu5VeY=g@mail.gmail.com>

---------- Forwarded message ----------
FYI, those of you who are into mobile security:
https://careers.mozilla.org/en-US/position/oZIA1fw2
--- End ---




From grarpamp at gmail.com  Sat Oct  3 23:14:02 2015
From: grarpamp at gmail.com (grarpamp)
Date: Sun, 4 Oct 2015 02:14:02 -0400
Subject: popcorn time - Russia now supporting Iraq too - US on the Ropes:
 China to Join Russian Military In Syria?
In-Reply-To: <CAOsGNSQts98aRuFJPDMgQP6ff6UYso65WQ9ZBJREMbeqszvY8g@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAOsGNSQts98aRuFJPDMgQP6ff6UYso65WQ9ZBJREMbeqszvY8g@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAD2Ti2_7DrUc5AOr0Q6D6S-JP_edi_hybTBXHAUqW_64aVcO8g@mail.gmail.com>

On Mon, Sep 28, 2015 at 10:17 PM, Zenaan Harkness <zen at freedbms.net> wrote:
> Putin just took their NWO plate with a
> stereotypically Russian "thank you kindly, you have a nice day now."

Never underestimate Russian pragmatism, space race exemplar.




From jdb10987 at yahoo.com  Sat Oct  3 20:24:11 2015
From: jdb10987 at yahoo.com (jim bell)
Date: Sun, 4 Oct 2015 03:24:11 +0000 (UTC)
Subject: USA government debt ceiling
In-Reply-To: <CAD2Ti28rKjMJCyCQYE_dO4zC3u6wuRcUu=Xy06_t57Sih0=u1Q@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAD2Ti28rKjMJCyCQYE_dO4zC3u6wuRcUu=Xy06_t57Sih0=u1Q@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <371358186.106992.1443929051430.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com>

  From: grarpamp <grarpamp at gmail.com>
On Sat, Oct 3, 2015 at 9:32 PM, jim bell <jdb10987 at yahoo.com> wrote:
> (say, $500 billion), Congress should raise it $XYZ-million per day.  Thus

>Sorry, but debt is supposed to be something incurred in a time of need
>which you are generally able to repay in a mutually acceptable timeframe.
>When you start pushing 100yr schedules, you're approaching lifetimes
>of humans and govts themselves, funny that structuring ;-)
I think you misunderstood me.  I was not somehow "approving" debt, especially not debt of the magnitude of 18 trillion.Rather, I objected to the practice of raising the debt limit in large instantaneous jumps, in contrast to small, daily raises.And, I also objected to NOT using the debt limit as a further lever by Congress on President Obama, and the minority Democrats in Congress:  Congress should allow a daily debt limit rise which is coupled, soon enough, by limits on spending which Obama cannot veto, and which the Democrats in Congress cannot filibuster.              Jim Bell



  
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From juan.g71 at gmail.com  Sun Oct  4 00:08:04 2015
From: juan.g71 at gmail.com (Juan)
Date: Sun, 4 Oct 2015 04:08:04 -0300
Subject: Snowden on the Twitters
In-Reply-To: <CAOsGNSR6jw6m+r2erR6=s0YNSMy7nk2g0UiusyvkLHWovKxkmA@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAD2Ti2-ZiZDAR_mLFAQqcgLVyyvrv2o2Kx3ri+jBK3o7aUF6QA@mail.gmail.com>
 <1459598.CCgg234MoK@lapuntu> <560EADF5.80207@riseup.net>
 <8253018.hPbHOlQF0S@lapuntu>
 <560ee12e.03c98c0a.63f6c.ffffda2e@mx.google.com>
 <CAOsGNSTY3xsqam_3EBsAaSckRFjXs+LefdaYTnys0b4E54yh2Q@mail.gmail.com>
 <56105f15.0fc6370a.c7a49.ffff8d84@mx.google.com>
 <CAOsGNSR6jw6m+r2erR6=s0YNSMy7nk2g0UiusyvkLHWovKxkmA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <5610cf1c.0212370a.97fe1.ffffb639@mx.google.com>

On Sun, 4 Oct 2015 00:41:07 +0000
Zenaan Harkness <zen at freedbms.net> wrote:

> 

> > 	Anyway, anarchists handle the problem of criminal
> > cooperation inside a government by getting rid of the government.
> 
> I think you'd only see temporary 'improvement' and for a shorter time
> than with constitutional statism.


	Well, that's just guessing. 



> 
> Barring a general population wide increase in awareness/consciousness
> of course - but the same can be said for any system.

	Exactly. Anarchism is to be compared with other systems
	while holding the rest of variables constant. Otherwise the
	comparison is meaningless.  And 'ceteribus paribus' anarchism
	 wins. 


>  I can keep my
> mental door open to the possibility that political anarchism might
> provide a longer duration of stability, or a greater likelihood for
> "population awareness increase" but frankly I doubt that.

> 
> Of course we can argue that replacing one undemocratic mafia, e.g. the
> British overlords that you guys kicked out, with another is
> essentially "handling the problem of criminal cooperation inside a
> government by getting rid of that government" as you say.


	I'm not sure I'm following. The american coup d'etat didn't get
	rid of government. Actually it created a government that was
	and is worse than the british empire. 


> 
> What are the metrics of national sanity?
> - wealth levels?
> - human intention towards family self sufficiency?
> - stable military?
> - deaths due to mafia faction fighting?
> - actual freedoms which can be readily lived by individuals v.s.
> proclaimed freedoms which have impenetrable and unspoken boundaries?
> (speech, movement, association, growing food/plants, breeding, making
> and doing anything which harms no one, choice v.s. imposition of any
> medical procedure or substance, ...)
> 
> Why would political anarchy not descend into mafia coalitions, control
> and actual anarchy, more quickly than constitutional statism?

	Why would it?

	And if it does, so what? That was the starting point, so
	nothing is lost. 


> Over here in Australia we have had pretty good run re 'political
> stability', despite more and more total ratbags who now dominate -
> yes, in military we've been lapdogs to USAgov in Vietnam, Iraq etc,
> but internally we had say 80 years of prosperity and 'stability' - I
> can imagine it having degraded more quickly if we had political
> anarchism 

	Well, but that's speculation, not argument =P 


> as our "foundation" rather than a "binding" constitution for
> the mafia to target and having to spend effort to undermine.
> 
> Just like HTTPS - not actually providing its claims, just raising the
> bar - does constitutional democracy also raise the bar?
> 

	It misdirects resources. If democracy was actually a threat to
	the powers that be, it would be ilegal. 



 
> Here we go - with constitutional statism, we need more truth in its
> opening pages. How's this:
> 
> - we the people are, on the whole, sheep, willingly shorn for any 2
> bit lie promise
> - we are often greedy, self centered and small minded to an extreme
> - we are by nature tribal, we live in fear, and we will sell our mates
> for a dozen silver coins and our souls for a bowl of rice and the
> promise of 'protection' from 'bad things'
> - we are so pathetic, we will even continue to alternately vote in two
> known political mafia gangs who persist in promising us everything
> (housing, food, clothing, medical and 'protection') for nothing (just
> a vote for them) whilst they continue to financially rape the country
> through illegal and debt 'instruments'
> 
> - and so because we are so pathetic, we acknowledge that if we even
> pretended to be able to live our own lives free of representatives and
> a protectorate, we would very soon run screaming in fear to the
> nearest gun-totin militaristic saviour
> 
> - in our well trodden and known to be doomed to total corruption
> within at most a few decades, but ultimately placebo, if
> self-deluding, concept of democracy, we seek to placate our own
> madness and desire for an unachievable order in the world by declaring
> another democratic religion for we, the sheeple, very soon to be shorn
> of any and all of our achievements in this world by our new democratic
> mafia overloards
> 
> How's that for an opener?



	Well, I would say "not bad" =)  though I think the
	generalization is too broad. A poetic license? 



> 
> Certainly, we live in interesting times.
> 
> >> although I do think some systems may have
> >> better prospects for social stability over some period of time -
> >> although more fundamentally is the state of consciousness of "we
> >> humans" - and educating the next generation to strive for something
> >> higher than the pursuit of greed.
> >>
> >> Re education, I do recommend John Taylor Gatto
> >
> > 	I've read stuff from Gatto. He's pretty good. What's really
> > 	amazing about him is that he worked for tens of years for
> > the US public indoctrin I mean US public education system to finally
> > 	realize how fucked up the system is.
> 
> And then wrote so in clear and enjoyable to read true stories. Good
> stuff.
> 
> Regards
> Zenaan




From juan.g71 at gmail.com  Sun Oct  4 00:49:32 2015
From: juan.g71 at gmail.com (Juan)
Date: Sun, 4 Oct 2015 04:49:32 -0300
Subject: Snowden on the Twitters
In-Reply-To: <20151004071907.GB2615@sivokote.iziade.m$>
References: <CAD2Ti2-ZiZDAR_mLFAQqcgLVyyvrv2o2Kx3ri+jBK3o7aUF6QA@mail.gmail.com>
 <1459598.CCgg234MoK@lapuntu> <560EADF5.80207@riseup.net>
 <8253018.hPbHOlQF0S@lapuntu>
 <560ee12e.03c98c0a.63f6c.ffffda2e@mx.google.com>
 <CAOsGNSTY3xsqam_3EBsAaSckRFjXs+LefdaYTnys0b4E54yh2Q@mail.gmail.com>
 <56105f15.0fc6370a.c7a49.ffff8d84@mx.google.com>
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Message-ID: <5610d8d3.011c8d0a.13280.ffffb2f7@mx.google.com>

On Sun, 4 Oct 2015 10:19:07 +0300
Georgi Guninski <guninski at guninski.com> wrote:


> 
> Juan,
> 
> To dumb me you appear utopist.

	Yeah, I know that's a common reaction =P 


> Please explain in simple words the IMPLEMENTATION of your New Order
> (in case you have order).


	You must have read or at least taken a glance at some of my
	rants. By now you should at least know the *name* of the
	system I advocate and should be able to research it on your
	own? =) 


> 
> In particular explain:
> 
> 1. How do you distribute goods (food, shelter, shiny J-Pads, money?
> etc) 

	free market

>2. How do you deal with dishonest people and criminals?

	free market for defense/security - insurance companies. Self
	defense. Et cetera.


> 3. How do you deal with people against your New Order?

	free market for defense/security - but if the number of
	statists is too big, they obviously win. Like they do today. 
 

> 4. How do you deal with current oligarchs in the New Order?


	Hang them by their balls. Actually, I don't pretend to have a
	definite plan and my divine powers are a little weak today so I
	can't exactly foretell the future...But an important point is
	that in a stateless society, oligarchs can't rely on the
	state to defend them...

	

> 5. How do you prevent corruption?


	What kind of corruption? 


> 
> IMHO a major problem is that sheeple are too buggy/easy to manipulate
> and don't want freedom, they just want shiny J-Pads, facebook, etc.

	I partially agree.
	

> John Lennon said:
> "If everyone demanded peace instead of another television set, then
> there'd be peace."
> 
	
	I partially agree, but the generalization misses the point I
	think. 







From Rayzer at riseup.net  Sun Oct  4 08:05:41 2015
From: Rayzer at riseup.net (Razer)
Date: Sun, 4 Oct 2015 08:05:41 -0700
Subject: Snowden on the Twitters
In-Reply-To: <13129583.kWAEteNBRA@lapuntu>
References: <CAD2Ti2-ZiZDAR_mLFAQqcgLVyyvrv2o2Kx3ri+jBK3o7aUF6QA@mail.gmail.com>
 <20151004071907.GB2615@sivokote.iziade.m$>
 <5610d8d3.011c8d0a.13280.ffffb2f7@mx.google.com>
 <13129583.kWAEteNBRA@lapuntu>
Message-ID: <56114045.2040604@riseup.net>



On 10/04/2015 04:08 AM, rysiek wrote:
> You do realise that "free market" is simply "the more you have money, the more 
> you have power over other people", right?

Do you realize "money" is an "Intangible Construct" in mature
industrial-capitalist societies (often referred to as 'consumer
cultures'), and it's value revolves-evolves in relation to artificially
created demand?

I'd make a pitch here for lining every marketing exec, from the guy that
telemarkets rodeo tickets to sales engineers (Steve Jobs), and executing
them, but that's simply a fantasy on my part.



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From guninski at guninski.com  Sat Oct  3 23:01:00 2015
From: guninski at guninski.com (Georgi Guninski)
Date: Sun, 4 Oct 2015 09:01:00 +0300
Subject: USA government debt ceiling
In-Reply-To: <CAOsGNSSpW6H5POz=xF5NpNc6Xvie_XoTStKtgDnThrE5Ys9Uqw@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAOsGNSSpW6H5POz=xF5NpNc6Xvie_XoTStKtgDnThrE5Ys9Uqw@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <20151004060100.GA2615@sivokote.iziade.m$>

On Sun, Oct 04, 2015 at 12:41:14AM +0000, Zenaan Harkness wrote:
> USA gov froze its government debt in March this year since they hit
> the 'statutory maximum' of $18,113,000,080,959.35 (yep, and the 35c).
> USGov is now in an extraordinary measures situation to be looked at
> again October 30, 2015.
> http://www.cnsnews.com/news/article/terence-p-jeffrey/150-days-treasury-says-debt-has-been-frozen-18112975000000
> 
> This has happened a few times before,
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_debt_ceiling
> 
> but I wonder if there are some real limits being reached, where
> they'll be unable to practically raise the USGov debt ceiling? Anyone
> have further info on this?

This was discussed on the old fulldisclosure list

IMHO at least one of these will happen

(A) usa kicks the bucket.
(B) somebody tries to save the usa, the way this already happens in
greece.

In (A) almost sure hyperinflation occurs, usa companies sold cheap,
affects people in most of the world, but not oligarchs. likely NSA
becomes criminal gang not controlled by .gov.

(B) likely would be the greek way, but not sure how long it can last
before going to (A) (lol, are greeks just beta testers...)

In Bulgaria advanced socialism fell in 1989 and basically the (A)
scenario happened.

I am surprised why the chinese still pour money in a Ponzi scheme, there
might be an agreement of some kind.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Financial_position_of_the_United_States

has very outdated data, not sure how worse it is now:


The financial position of the United States includes assets of at least
$269.6 trillion (1576% of GDP) and debts of $145.8 trillion (852% of
GDP) to produce a net worth of at least $123.8 trillion (723% of
GDP,)[a] as of Q1 2014.





From Rayzer at riseup.net  Sun Oct  4 09:38:24 2015
From: Rayzer at riseup.net (Razer)
Date: Sun, 4 Oct 2015 09:38:24 -0700
Subject: Snowden on the Twitters
In-Reply-To: <103143709.dDKny2alah@lapuntu>
References: <CAD2Ti2-ZiZDAR_mLFAQqcgLVyyvrv2o2Kx3ri+jBK3o7aUF6QA@mail.gmail.com>
 <13129583.kWAEteNBRA@lapuntu> <56114045.2040604@riseup.net>
 <103143709.dDKny2alah@lapuntu>
Message-ID: <56115600.9070800@riseup.net>



On 10/04/2015 08:54 AM, rysiek wrote:
> Whether that thing is "money" as we think of it today, sea shells, BitCoin or 
> anything else, is utterly irrelevant here.

But the value of the middleman in the transaction sure isn't.

Anarchist Economics 101 >> http://imgur.com/pQm0ZGs

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From rysiek at hackerspace.pl  Sun Oct  4 00:57:49 2015
From: rysiek at hackerspace.pl (rysiek)
Date: Sun, 04 Oct 2015 09:57:49 +0200
Subject: USA government debt ceiling
In-Reply-To: <20151004060100.GA2615@sivokote.iziade.m$>
References: <CAOsGNSSpW6H5POz=xF5NpNc6Xvie_XoTStKtgDnThrE5Ys9Uqw@mail.gmail.com>
 <20151004060100.GA2615@sivokote.iziade.m$>
Message-ID: <13497520.4nCuUrKUYk@lapuntu>

Dnia niedziela, 4 października 2015 09:01:00 Georgi Guninski pisze:
> In (A) almost sure hyperinflation occurs, usa companies sold cheap,
> affects people in most of the world, but not oligarchs. likely NSA
> becomes criminal gang not controlled by .gov.

What do you mean, "becomes".

-- 
Pozdrawiam,
Michał "rysiek" Woźniak

Zmieniam klucz GPG :: http://rys.io/pl/147
GPG Key Transition :: http://rys.io/en/147
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From guninski at guninski.com  Sun Oct  4 00:19:07 2015
From: guninski at guninski.com (Georgi Guninski)
Date: Sun, 4 Oct 2015 10:19:07 +0300
Subject: Snowden on the Twitters
In-Reply-To: <5610cf1c.0212370a.97fe1.ffffb639@mx.google.com>
References: <CAD2Ti2-ZiZDAR_mLFAQqcgLVyyvrv2o2Kx3ri+jBK3o7aUF6QA@mail.gmail.com>
 <1459598.CCgg234MoK@lapuntu> <560EADF5.80207@riseup.net>
 <8253018.hPbHOlQF0S@lapuntu>
 <560ee12e.03c98c0a.63f6c.ffffda2e@mx.google.com>
 <CAOsGNSTY3xsqam_3EBsAaSckRFjXs+LefdaYTnys0b4E54yh2Q@mail.gmail.com>
 <56105f15.0fc6370a.c7a49.ffff8d84@mx.google.com>
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Message-ID: <20151004071907.GB2615@sivokote.iziade.m$>

On Sun, Oct 04, 2015 at 04:08:04AM -0300, Juan wrote:
> On Sun, 4 Oct 2015 00:41:07 +0000
> Zenaan Harkness <zen at freedbms.net> wrote:
> 
> > 
> 
> > > 	Anyway, anarchists handle the problem of criminal
> > > cooperation inside a government by getting rid of the government.
> > 
> > I think you'd only see temporary 'improvement' and for a shorter time
> > than with constitutional statism.
> 
> 
> 	Well, that's just guessing. 
> 
> 
> 
> > 
> > Barring a general population wide increase in awareness/consciousness
> > of course - but the same can be said for any system.
> 
> 	Exactly. Anarchism is to be compared with other systems
> 	while holding the rest of variables constant. Otherwise the
> 	comparison is meaningless.  And 'ceteribus paribus' anarchism
> 	 wins. 
> 
>

Juan,

To dumb me you appear utopist.

Please explain in simple words the IMPLEMENTATION of your New Order (in
case you have order).

In particular explain:

1. How do you distribute goods (food, shelter, shiny J-Pads, money? etc)
2. How do you deal with dishonest people and criminals?
3. How do you deal with people against your New Order?
4. How do you deal with current oligarchs in the New Order?
5. How do you prevent corruption?

IMHO a major problem is that sheeple are too buggy/easy to manipulate
and don't want freedom, they just want shiny J-Pads, facebook, etc.

John Lennon said:
"If everyone demanded peace instead of another television set, then
there'd be peace."






From guninski at guninski.com  Sun Oct  4 01:32:07 2015
From: guninski at guninski.com (Georgi Guninski)
Date: Sun, 4 Oct 2015 11:32:07 +0300
Subject: Snowden on the Twitters
In-Reply-To: <5610d8d3.011c8d0a.13280.ffffb2f7@mx.google.com>
References: <1459598.CCgg234MoK@lapuntu> <560EADF5.80207@riseup.net>
 <8253018.hPbHOlQF0S@lapuntu>
 <560ee12e.03c98c0a.63f6c.ffffda2e@mx.google.com>
 <CAOsGNSTY3xsqam_3EBsAaSckRFjXs+LefdaYTnys0b4E54yh2Q@mail.gmail.com>
 <56105f15.0fc6370a.c7a49.ffff8d84@mx.google.com>
 <CAOsGNSR6jw6m+r2erR6=s0YNSMy7nk2g0UiusyvkLHWovKxkmA@mail.gmail.com>
 <5610cf1c.0212370a.97fe1.ffffb639@mx.google.com>
 <20151004071907.GB2615@sivokote.iziade.m$>
 <5610d8d3.011c8d0a.13280.ffffb2f7@mx.google.com>
Message-ID: <20151004083207.GC2615@sivokote.iziade.m$>

On Sun, Oct 04, 2015 at 04:49:32AM -0300, Juan wrote:
> > 3. How do you deal with people against your New Order?
> 
> 	free market for defense/security - but if the number of
> 	statists is too big, they obviously win. Like they do today. 
>
Thanks.

Most of this sounds good on paper. I suppose you have seen caricatures
what the client  wants and down the chain what the devs deliver?

In addition probably you would like your "system" to survive and
statists/adversaries don't win.





From Rayzer at riseup.net  Sun Oct  4 11:32:32 2015
From: Rayzer at riseup.net (Razer)
Date: Sun, 4 Oct 2015 11:32:32 -0700
Subject: Snowden on the Twitters
In-Reply-To: <2462633.E2y7GV1oc3@lapuntu>
References: <CAD2Ti2-ZiZDAR_mLFAQqcgLVyyvrv2o2Kx3ri+jBK3o7aUF6QA@mail.gmail.com>
 <103143709.dDKny2alah@lapuntu> <56115600.9070800@riseup.net>
 <2462633.E2y7GV1oc3@lapuntu>
Message-ID: <561170C0.1070202@riseup.net>



On 10/04/2015 10:22 AM, rysiek wrote:
> Dnia niedziela, 4 października 2015 09:38:24 Razer pisze:
>> On 10/04/2015 08:54 AM, rysiek wrote:
>>> Whether that thing is "money" as we think of it today, sea shells, BitCoin
>>> or anything else, is utterly irrelevant here.
>> But the value of the middleman in the transaction sure isn't.
>>
>> Anarchist Economics 101 >> http://imgur.com/pQm0ZGs
> When A buys X from B for amount Y, it means that both of them value what they 
> are giving away (A: X; B: Y) less than what they are receiving, otherwise they 
> wouldn't do it. In any volountary exchange, including when money is involved, 
> both A and B benefit.
>
> See? It's simple!
>

The middleman exists to see to it that the exchange is NOT entirely
voluntary, and I'm back to that bloody fantasy about Marketers and sales
engineers...

For SOME people four walls a three too many. About the ONLY thing Stalin
ever said that I agree with.

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From l at odewijk.nl  Sun Oct  4 03:21:57 2015
From: l at odewijk.nl (=?UTF-8?Q?Lodewijk_andr=C3=A9_de_la_porte?=)
Date: Sun, 4 Oct 2015 12:21:57 +0200
Subject: freedom.press, also the firstlook/intercept...
In-Reply-To: <CAD2Ti28=QiPxY+pZWf7T7OnXXEB_SPR7Dx1Ya_e=rO5xbJggWA@mail.gmail.com>
References: <20150930200213.GE13534@ctrlc.hu> <560DAB81.7060800@pilobilus.net>
 <20151001220923.A0DFC6801A8@frontend2.nyi.internal>
 <20151002085841.GD2533@sivokote.iziade.m$>
 <CAHWD2rKqR0HfWs9s+wJG-mshadO26mZ8XOte2fzPTEFAStbMQg@mail.gmail.com>
 <20151002220054.9D6006801D2@frontend2.nyi.internal>
 <CAD2Ti28=QiPxY+pZWf7T7OnXXEB_SPR7Dx1Ya_e=rO5xbJggWA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAHWD2rJbGZw17uHtuh65-D-+_xiw8fCr2_0d=oc04ajeLYTq1A@mail.gmail.com>

2015-10-04 5:36 GMT+02:00 grarpamp <grarpamp at gmail.com>:

> Perfection is "hard", and must be a "lifestyle" of minimization
> and excercises and engineering, both in real life and in the mind.
>

But this is exactly the problem!

Most people are not at (info)war. Most people are trying to live another
kind of lifestyle entirely, and see not how invisible orgs can abuse them.
All that care about infosec can only say "stop having fun, stop using
features, start putting effort into something that you can hardly even
imagine".

I think the best "for the public" angle is sovereignty, control and
actionable freedom. Politicians whose internal memo's and private lives are
not secure will function much worse; even when not blackmailed their
adversaries have a strong upper hand - affecting sovereignty. The same
applies to companies.
Control over your life and how you behave, no silly timewasting DRM, no
involuntary updates or changes, no "accept all" or misleading "opt-in", no
aggressive tie-in strategies, options other than
voting-with-your-feet/wallet.
And wrt actionable freedom - privacy isn't just for nefarious business,
it's also just for keeping people out of your hair. If you like long
showers you might prefer not tweeting it, lest your eco-buddies will look
at you with little frowns. Maybe you really dig that groovy lavalamp -
doesn't mean everyone should know it. And perhaps you'd rather not scribble
your teen-girl-pop-rock-addiction? Best not speak of heavy subjects -
people prefer lightweight, fun, enthusiastic, positive talks.

In that vein, I have determined Android smartphones to be something I do
want to have. It has been getting worse and worse for years on end. iOS is
worse still, but now seemingly only marginally so. Having just lost my
personal pictures (which are really not that useful for anyone but me) is
painful, and I wish I just accepted the cloud backup feature. I did not see
why it should not be encrypted locally, but the applications for doing so
manually did not inspire trust, and seemed like a big hassle besides (was
still gonna). Basically, I recommend using automatic cloud backups for
images, and remembering that GOOG/TLA's are watching (which they are
anyway, on your Android smartphone).

How hard is it really to, upon boot of a physical local storage server,
> to remember to concatenate 12'th line of the 12'th page of the first
> 12 books on your bookshelf?
> Or to at least write the fucker down so that phrase remains
> airgapped (though obviously final key still present in core)?


I'd first need a stable bookshelf. Housing has been in flux somewhat - for
a while now. I may have written something down. Somewhere. Also, I thought
I would remember, and did, until I did not use the password for some months
(it was running smoothly and needed no reboots). So, harder than it seemed.
I have also used grids and patterns to hide passwords, so not every
onlooker would immediately see them - but it's possible to brute force them
so there's no real comfort.


Sorry for always being so verbose. Brevity kills clarity.
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From l at odewijk.nl  Sun Oct  4 03:33:09 2015
From: l at odewijk.nl (=?UTF-8?Q?Lodewijk_andr=C3=A9_de_la_porte?=)
Date: Sun, 4 Oct 2015 12:33:09 +0200
Subject: USA government debt ceiling
In-Reply-To: <13497520.4nCuUrKUYk@lapuntu>
References: <CAOsGNSSpW6H5POz=xF5NpNc6Xvie_XoTStKtgDnThrE5Ys9Uqw@mail.gmail.com>
 <20151004060100.GA2615@sivokote.iziade.m$> <13497520.4nCuUrKUYk@lapuntu>
Message-ID: <CAHWD2rKdYMUM0H9kvHCCs=XEm_zdS3hTFhd9rZ0h9vJcF1vcFg@mail.gmail.com>

US debt has no theoretical limit. Instead debt value is limited by the
amount of inflation incurred.

The way the US rents the finances from the FED is confusing and I'm not
sure what it means for where the rent goes. Ideally, it just reduces the
amount of USD in circulation.

The US is not in the situation that it's rent outweighs it's income, and is
therefore not killed. Even if it does it mostly means the government and
people will have to adopt another currency that's not hyperinflating. Then
wait for the USD to devaluate the entire debt to a payable level. (Note:
something Bitcoiny would be a pretty good fit for many reasons)

As for US politics, LOL WE'RE ALL EFFED
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From oshwm at openmailbox.org  Sun Oct  4 04:57:37 2015
From: oshwm at openmailbox.org (oshwm)
Date: Sun, 04 Oct 2015 12:57:37 +0100
Subject: Snowden on the Twitters
In-Reply-To: <13129583.kWAEteNBRA@lapuntu>
References: <CAD2Ti2-ZiZDAR_mLFAQqcgLVyyvrv2o2Kx3ri+jBK3o7aUF6QA@mail.gmail.com>
 <20151004071907.GB2615@sivokote.iziade.m$>
 <5610d8d3.011c8d0a.13280.ffffb2f7@mx.google.com>
 <13129583.kWAEteNBRA@lapuntu>
Message-ID: <56111431.2020908@openmailbox.org>

Actually, machinery and robots will deal with most of these issues.
Not Artificial Intelligence though.
This is because if we create AI to do our bidding then we have created a
new class of slave but by using non-AI machines then we avoid the
consciousness problem.

We have machines to cover the entire supply chain from raw materials to
end user delivery and machines to repair the machines (and of course
machines to repair the repair machines :D ).
This removes the whole market system because if you want it then the
machines will create it for you, for free.
Removing the market system removes any financially based conflict and if
everything is available to everyone for free whenever they want it then
greed/one-upmanship as a problem gets eliminated.

As for how to reach this great state of Nirvana? Its very simple, we
wait for the capitalists to replace all their current set of slaves with
far more efficient machinery to do their work and then we just take over
them :)

Oligarchs and bullies etc become less of an issue due to the removal of
money, leaving just the psychopath types.
These are dealt with by educating our children to be strong and face
down these psychopaths for the good of everyone including themselves
(re-purposing of the patriotism system to simply one of supporting life
and freedom in general).
People will die in these battles but also a deterrence is created by
raising the stakes that any attack on someone is likely to fail or
result in death of the attacker.
Also, we teach everyone that the only justifiable and decent fight is
one of self-defence (not pre-emptive self-defence either).

To peacefully reach this point would take (imho) at least three
generations if everyone on the planet committed to work towards it now.

When people talk of a free market, they are simply looking for a
justification for screwing over other humans. People need to forget the
idea that a free market is fair or decent and if they want a free market
then they need to know that their actions have consequences of suffering
for other living people and they need to square that with their own
conscience rather than try to excuse it away.

I know, unusually non anarcho-captalist views for this list but I am
what I am :P

Cheers,
oshwm.


On 04/10/15 12:08, rysiek wrote:
> Dnia niedziela, 4 października 2015 04:49:32 Juan pisze:
>>> 1. How do you distribute goods (food, shelter, shiny J-Pads, money?
>>> etc)
>> 	free market
>>
>>> 2. How do you deal with dishonest people and criminals?
>> 	free market for defense/security - insurance companies. Self
>> 	defense. Et cetera.
>>
>>> 3. How do you deal with people against your New Order?
>> 	free market for defense/security - but if the number of
>> 	statists is too big, they obviously win. Like they do today.
> inb4 "free market will solve everything"
> http://q3k.org/ohwow.jpg
>
> You do realise that "free market" is simply "the more you have money, the more 
> you have power over other people", right?
>


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From rysiek at hackerspace.pl  Sun Oct  4 04:04:24 2015
From: rysiek at hackerspace.pl (rysiek)
Date: Sun, 04 Oct 2015 13:04:24 +0200
Subject: Snowden on the Twitters
In-Reply-To: <560ee12e.03c98c0a.63f6c.ffffda2e@mx.google.com>
References: <CAD2Ti2-ZiZDAR_mLFAQqcgLVyyvrv2o2Kx3ri+jBK3o7aUF6QA@mail.gmail.com>
 <8253018.hPbHOlQF0S@lapuntu> <560ee12e.03c98c0a.63f6c.ffffda2e@mx.google.com>
Message-ID: <4981863.QEr0jJ5gxR@lapuntu>

Dnia piątek, 2 października 2015 17:00:42 Juan pisze:
> 	You know, the first requirement to win an argument is to pick
> 	the right side. And statism isn't the right side of the
> 	argument.

I am not arguing for nor against statism. I am voiving my opinion that 
regardless of how we call it, there *will* be structure/hierarchy sooner or 
later in any "sociely" you want to build.

> 	re : 'division of power' - the incentives for people who have
> 	power lead them to COOPERATE to maintain or gain more power, not
> 	to 'check' each other's power. ABC of economics.

Cool, show me a better, more workable model, and I'm happy to roll with it.

> > etc)
> > and build upon them or try implementing them in a more functional
> > way, or... go the "ignore it altogether" route, end up reinventing
> > the wheel, and arriving at a not-all- that-functional variation of it.
> 
> 	So, you are willing to 'cooperate' with the current criminals
> 	and justify them while accusing a bunch of anarchist of 'maybe'
> 	doing something that goes against their principles?

Who said anything about cooperation? I was merely remarking that inevitably 
one way or the other we will land in a state-like organisation. Not saying 
it's good.

-- 
Pozdrawiam,
Michał "rysiek" Woźniak

Zmieniam klucz GPG :: http://rys.io/pl/147
GPG Key Transition :: http://rys.io/en/147
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From rysiek at hackerspace.pl  Sun Oct  4 04:08:16 2015
From: rysiek at hackerspace.pl (rysiek)
Date: Sun, 04 Oct 2015 13:08:16 +0200
Subject: Snowden on the Twitters
In-Reply-To: <5610d8d3.011c8d0a.13280.ffffb2f7@mx.google.com>
References: <CAD2Ti2-ZiZDAR_mLFAQqcgLVyyvrv2o2Kx3ri+jBK3o7aUF6QA@mail.gmail.com>
 <20151004071907.GB2615@sivokote.iziade.m$>
 <5610d8d3.011c8d0a.13280.ffffb2f7@mx.google.com>
Message-ID: <13129583.kWAEteNBRA@lapuntu>

Dnia niedziela, 4 października 2015 04:49:32 Juan pisze:
> > 1. How do you distribute goods (food, shelter, shiny J-Pads, money?
> > etc)
> 
> 	free market
> 
> >2. How do you deal with dishonest people and criminals?
> 
> 	free market for defense/security - insurance companies. Self
> 	defense. Et cetera.
> 
> > 3. How do you deal with people against your New Order?
> 
> 	free market for defense/security - but if the number of
> 	statists is too big, they obviously win. Like they do today.

inb4 "free market will solve everything"
http://q3k.org/ohwow.jpg

You do realise that "free market" is simply "the more you have money, the more 
you have power over other people", right?

-- 
Pozdrawiam,
Michał "rysiek" Woźniak

Zmieniam klucz GPG :: http://rys.io/pl/147
GPG Key Transition :: http://rys.io/en/147
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From guninski at guninski.com  Sun Oct  4 04:51:58 2015
From: guninski at guninski.com (Georgi Guninski)
Date: Sun, 4 Oct 2015 14:51:58 +0300
Subject: juan's vision of free market WAS Snowden on the Twitters
Message-ID: <20151004115158.GD2615@sivokote.iziade.m$>

>> 1. How do you distribute goods (food, shelter, shiny J-Pads, money?
>> etc)
>>
>        free market

What is a sound definition of free market?

In particular:

1. How does the ``free market'' prevents _cartels_ and stays free?
2. In a stateless free market, what happens to orphans, physically/mentally
impaired people and the like?

IMHO realworld implementation of ``free market'' is the law of the
jungle played with (virtual) money/goods on a Ponzi scheme playground
(check the thread about the usa debt).




From juan.g71 at gmail.com  Sun Oct  4 12:08:55 2015
From: juan.g71 at gmail.com (Juan)
Date: Sun, 4 Oct 2015 16:08:55 -0300
Subject: juan's vision of free market WAS Snowden on the Twitters
In-Reply-To: <20151004115158.GD2615@sivokote.iziade.m$>
References: <20151004115158.GD2615@sivokote.iziade.m$>
Message-ID: <56117804.755f8c0a.3616d.fffff75a@mx.google.com>

On Sun, 4 Oct 2015 14:51:58 +0300
Georgi Guninski <guninski at guninski.com> wrote:

> >> 1. How do you distribute goods (food, shelter, shiny J-Pads, money?
> >> etc)
> >>
> >        free market
> 
> What is a sound definition of free market?


	Georgi, if you are really interested in the topic, do your own
	homework.

	http://jim.com/Molinari.htm


	If on the other hand you think that your questions are
	rhetorical questions that somehow prove anything, don't waste
	your time. And mine.


	The comments I made about statism have not been refuted - at
	all.

	And what is the  political system you advocate? How do you YOU
	justify it? 


> 
> In particular:
> 
> 1. How does the ``free market'' prevents _cartels_ and stays free?
> 2. In a stateless free market, what happens to orphans,
> physically/mentally impaired people and the like?


	They are sold as cat and dog food for the pets of the rich
	people. 


> 
> IMHO realworld implementation of ``free market'' is the law of the
> jungle played with (virtual) money/goods on a Ponzi scheme playground
> (check the thread about the usa debt).

	That is, you don't know what "free market" means and yet you
	are wasting time discussing it and apparently trying to refute
	something you don't have a clue about it.









> 




From juan.g71 at gmail.com  Sun Oct  4 12:18:29 2015
From: juan.g71 at gmail.com (Juan)
Date: Sun, 4 Oct 2015 16:18:29 -0300
Subject: Snowden on the Twitters
In-Reply-To: <4981863.QEr0jJ5gxR@lapuntu>
References: <CAD2Ti2-ZiZDAR_mLFAQqcgLVyyvrv2o2Kx3ri+jBK3o7aUF6QA@mail.gmail.com>
 <8253018.hPbHOlQF0S@lapuntu>
 <560ee12e.03c98c0a.63f6c.ffffda2e@mx.google.com>
 <4981863.QEr0jJ5gxR@lapuntu>
Message-ID: <56117a42.13178c0a.2e076.fffffc38@mx.google.com>

On Sun, 04 Oct 2015 13:04:24 +0200
rysiek <rysiek at hackerspace.pl> wrote:

> Dnia piątek, 2 października 2015 17:00:42 Juan pisze:
> > 	You know, the first requirement to win an argument is to
> > pick the right side. And statism isn't the right side of the
> > 	argument.
> 
> I am not arguing for nor against statism.

	Really. 


> I am voiving my opinion
> that regardless of how we call it, there *will* be
> structure/hierarchy sooner or later in any "sociely" you want to
> build.

	Oh OK. Just a wrong and unfounded opinion.



> 
> > 	re : 'division of power' - the incentives for people who
> > have power lead them to COOPERATE to maintain or gain more power,
> > not to 'check' each other's power. ABC of economics.
> 
> Cool, show me a better, more workable model, and I'm happy to roll
> with it.

	I thought you were not arguing for statism? And yet you
	copypasted a statist slogan and now you think you are mocking
	me because I showed that your statist slogan is...just that,
	empty propaganda. 

	What you said about division of power IS bullshit. If you are
	not arguing for statism, then go ahead and acknowledge that
	your/the statist slogan is bullshit.
 


> 
> > > etc)
> > > and build upon them or try implementing them in a more functional
> > > way, or... go the "ignore it altogether" route, end up reinventing
> > > the wheel, and arriving at a not-all- that-functional variation
> > > of it.
> > 
> > 	So, you are willing to 'cooperate' with the current
> > criminals and justify them while accusing a bunch of anarchist of
> > 'maybe' doing something that goes against their principles?
> 
> Who said anything about cooperation? I was merely remarking that
> inevitably one way or the other we will land in a state-like
> organisation. Not saying it's good.


	"Who said anything about cooperation? " 

	You, of course. 

	"But we can either choose to take what we can from what seems
	to be a set of good ideas (separation of powers, checks and
	balances, etc) and build upon them or try implementing them in
	a more functional way," 


	Don't take me for an idiot rysiek. 



J.





From juan.g71 at gmail.com  Sun Oct  4 12:23:05 2015
From: juan.g71 at gmail.com (Juan)
Date: Sun, 4 Oct 2015 16:23:05 -0300
Subject: Snowden on the Twitters
In-Reply-To: <13129583.kWAEteNBRA@lapuntu>
References: <CAD2Ti2-ZiZDAR_mLFAQqcgLVyyvrv2o2Kx3ri+jBK3o7aUF6QA@mail.gmail.com>
 <20151004071907.GB2615@sivokote.iziade.m$>
 <5610d8d3.011c8d0a.13280.ffffb2f7@mx.google.com>
 <13129583.kWAEteNBRA@lapuntu>
Message-ID: <56117b56.e45c8c0a.c6afa.fffffa12@mx.google.com>

On Sun, 04 Oct 2015 13:08:16 +0200
rysiek <rysiek at hackerspace.pl> wrote:

> Dnia niedziela, 4 października 2015 04:49:32 Juan pisze:
> > > 1. How do you distribute goods (food, shelter, shiny J-Pads,
> > > money? etc)
> > 
> > 	free market
> > 
> > >2. How do you deal with dishonest people and criminals?
> > 
> > 	free market for defense/security - insurance companies. Self
> > 	defense. Et cetera.
> > 
> > > 3. How do you deal with people against your New Order?
> > 
> > 	free market for defense/security - but if the number of
> > 	statists is too big, they obviously win. Like they do today.
> 
> inb4 "free market will solve everything"
> http://q3k.org/ohwow.jpg
> 
> You do realise that "free market" is simply "the more you have money,
> the more you have power over other people", right?


	You do realize you don't have a clue what "free	market"
	means? 	Is that all you have? The typical commie caricature? 

	You seem confused rysiek. You are quite comfortable with the
	right-wing american nazis of the pentagon and their propaganda
	projects like tor. You parrot 'libertarian' nonsense about
	'division of power'. And now you just copypasted the dumbest
	of commie slogans? 

	
	What the hell? 




J.

 








> 





From juan.g71 at gmail.com  Sun Oct  4 12:26:42 2015
From: juan.g71 at gmail.com (Juan)
Date: Sun, 4 Oct 2015 16:26:42 -0300
Subject: juan's vision of free market WAS Snowden on the Twitters
In-Reply-To: <20151004115158.GD2615@sivokote.iziade.m$>
References: <20151004115158.GD2615@sivokote.iziade.m$>
Message-ID: <56117c2f.0212370a.97fe1.fffffad0@mx.google.com>



	By the way Georgi, first you called me an 'utopian'. I hope you
	know what that means. It means the system I advocate is not
	possible and obviously doesn't exist. 

	And now you are saying that "free market" is the same thing as
	(american) corporatism. 

	Well, at least it's a utopia eh? 


> IMHO realworld implementation of ``free market'' is the law of the
> jungle played with (virtual) money/goods on a Ponzi scheme playground
> (check the thread about the usa debt).
> 




From juan.g71 at gmail.com  Sun Oct  4 12:29:25 2015
From: juan.g71 at gmail.com (Juan)
Date: Sun, 4 Oct 2015 16:29:25 -0300
Subject: juan's vision of free market WAS Snowden on the Twitters
In-Reply-To: <20151004115158.GD2615@sivokote.iziade.m$>
References: <20151004115158.GD2615@sivokote.iziade.m$>
Message-ID: <56117cd2.46c38c0a.eeaa8.fffff83d@mx.google.com>




	By the way Georgi, first you called me an 'utopian'. I hope you
	know what that means. It means the system I advocate is not
	possible and obviously doesn't exist. 

	And now you are saying that "free market" is the same thing as
	(american) corporatism. 

	Well, at least the 'free market' it's NOT a utopia after all
	eh? 

	

> IMHO realworld implementation of ``free market'' is the law of the
> jungle played with (virtual) money/goods on a Ponzi scheme playground
> (check the thread about the usa debt).
> 




From rysiek at hackerspace.pl  Sun Oct  4 08:54:57 2015
From: rysiek at hackerspace.pl (rysiek)
Date: Sun, 04 Oct 2015 17:54:57 +0200
Subject: Snowden on the Twitters
In-Reply-To: <56114045.2040604@riseup.net>
References: <CAD2Ti2-ZiZDAR_mLFAQqcgLVyyvrv2o2Kx3ri+jBK3o7aUF6QA@mail.gmail.com>
 <13129583.kWAEteNBRA@lapuntu> <56114045.2040604@riseup.net>
Message-ID: <103143709.dDKny2alah@lapuntu>

Dnia niedziela, 4 października 2015 08:05:41 Razer pisze:
> On 10/04/2015 04:08 AM, rysiek wrote:
> > You do realise that "free market" is simply "the more you have money, the
> > more you have power over other people", right?
> 
> Do you realize "money" is an "Intangible Construct" in mature
> industrial-capitalist societies (often referred to as 'consumer
> cultures'), and it's value revolves-evolves in relation to artificially
> created demand?

Sure, but if you have "free market", that assumes the existence of some kind 
of "money".

Whatever that would be in any given society, the mechanisms would be the same 
-- whatever the society is using to "buy" things on the "free market", those 
who have more of that will have more power over the less fortunate.

Whether that thing is "money" as we think of it today, sea shells, BitCoin or 
anything else, is utterly irrelevant here.

-- 
Pozdrawiam,
Michał "rysiek" Woźniak

Zmieniam klucz GPG :: http://rys.io/pl/147
GPG Key Transition :: http://rys.io/en/147
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From rysiek at hackerspace.pl  Sun Oct  4 10:22:22 2015
From: rysiek at hackerspace.pl (rysiek)
Date: Sun, 04 Oct 2015 19:22:22 +0200
Subject: Snowden on the Twitters
In-Reply-To: <56115600.9070800@riseup.net>
References: <CAD2Ti2-ZiZDAR_mLFAQqcgLVyyvrv2o2Kx3ri+jBK3o7aUF6QA@mail.gmail.com>
 <103143709.dDKny2alah@lapuntu> <56115600.9070800@riseup.net>
Message-ID: <2462633.E2y7GV1oc3@lapuntu>

Dnia niedziela, 4 października 2015 09:38:24 Razer pisze:
> On 10/04/2015 08:54 AM, rysiek wrote:
> > Whether that thing is "money" as we think of it today, sea shells, BitCoin
> > or anything else, is utterly irrelevant here.
> 
> But the value of the middleman in the transaction sure isn't.
> 
> Anarchist Economics 101 >> http://imgur.com/pQm0ZGs

When A buys X from B for amount Y, it means that both of them value what they 
are giving away (A: X; B: Y) less than what they are receiving, otherwise they 
wouldn't do it. In any volountary exchange, including when money is involved, 
both A and B benefit.

See? It's simple!

-- 
Pozdrawiam,
Michał "rysiek" Woźniak

Zmieniam klucz GPG :: http://rys.io/pl/147
GPG Key Transition :: http://rys.io/en/147
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From zen at freedbms.net  Sun Oct  4 17:45:02 2015
From: zen at freedbms.net (Zenaan Harkness)
Date: Mon, 5 Oct 2015 00:45:02 +0000
Subject: Sometimes Putin is a little bit cruel.
Message-ID: <CAOsGNSTpa39gk8ZMrMoHiAJfYRmML6SWukdnAExfcZzMH7WJ1g@mail.gmail.com>

http://russia-insider.com/en/politics/classic-putin-asks-west-explain-difference-between-moderate-and-immoderate-armed-groups-cue

Bad, bad Putin - you know such trolling embarrasses 'the west'
(certainly can't call our politicians 'leaders', although sadly we do
on the whole seem to follow them).




From zen at freedbms.net  Sun Oct  4 18:37:49 2015
From: zen at freedbms.net (Zenaan Harkness)
Date: Mon, 5 Oct 2015 01:37:49 +0000
Subject: Sometimes Putin is a little bit cruel.
In-Reply-To: <CAOsGNSTpa39gk8ZMrMoHiAJfYRmML6SWukdnAExfcZzMH7WJ1g@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAOsGNSTpa39gk8ZMrMoHiAJfYRmML6SWukdnAExfcZzMH7WJ1g@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAOsGNSQv_1z2FH3tOzPmdhvD7oOYtopNdYpCb-xXnWj4haHBaw@mail.gmail.com>

And speaking again of 'moderate terrorists':
http://fortruss.blogspot.ru/2015/10/russian-justice-moderate-ammo-for.html


On 10/5/15, Zenaan Harkness <zen at freedbms.net> wrote:
> http://russia-insider.com/en/politics/classic-putin-asks-west-explain-difference-between-moderate-and-immoderate-armed-groups-cue
>
> Bad, bad Putin - you know such trolling embarrasses 'the west'
> (certainly can't call our politicians 'leaders', although sadly we do
> on the whole seem to follow them).
>




From zen at freedbms.net  Sun Oct  4 19:12:18 2015
From: zen at freedbms.net (Zenaan Harkness)
Date: Mon, 5 Oct 2015 02:12:18 +0000
Subject: USA government debt ceiling
In-Reply-To: <CAOsGNSSpW6H5POz=xF5NpNc6Xvie_XoTStKtgDnThrE5Ys9Uqw@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAOsGNSSpW6H5POz=xF5NpNc6Xvie_XoTStKtgDnThrE5Ys9Uqw@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAOsGNSR9tXKM9+nPvJgT_7qESJPSJ9JuXWyeNFqBoPUCFEY3Bg@mail.gmail.com>

Just found this, which has a fair bit of more current info, for those
interested:

http://english.pravda.ru/business/finance/02-10-2015/132222-usa_debt_bomb-0/




From admin at pilobilus.net  Mon Oct  5 04:18:33 2015
From: admin at pilobilus.net (Steve Kinney)
Date: Mon, 5 Oct 2015 07:18:33 -0400
Subject: How to minimize one's damage in case the usa kicks the bucket?
In-Reply-To: <CAOsGNSQ0mXaD_9DorvTG-ddyQiKtfEKpF1eKxYDgtXmAqV7t7g@mail.gmail.com>
References: <20151005085119.GA2489@sivokote.iziade.m$>
 <CAOsGNSQ0mXaD_9DorvTG-ddyQiKtfEKpF1eKxYDgtXmAqV7t7g@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <56125C89.2000304@pilobilus.net>

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1

On 10/05/2015 05:43 AM, Zenaan Harkness wrote:

Good ideas in this thread so far.  What I would add is, get the F
away from population centers; they are very hungry machines that
will start to fail in very bad ways whenever any of their major
inputs are substantially reduced for more than a few weeks - even
without panic and martial law factored in.

On moving way out of town:  Sooner is better, because as the
industrial economy crumbles everyone will get the same bright idea
and that land ain't empty.  It's occupied by communities where it
takes time to learn the human landscape and build trust
relationships.  On arrival start working to establish oneself in
an economic role that will continue to pay off in the form of
mutual aid and bartering of labor and commodities, as the value of
Federal Reserve Notes spirals down.

As for cash money, I like silver way more than gold:  People will
kill you much sooner for gold than silver, and the value of silver
has been steadily rising due to industrial applications drawing
down the world supply faster than mining is able to replace it.

Another thing to think about is identifying technology that will
stay relevant to the practical concerns of feeding and housing
people in your local economy when international supply chains go
sideways for months or years at a time.  Learn what is and isn't
important by getting involved in the actual work, and get on top
of how to run and fix that stuff, /then/ stockpile spare parts and
replacements.

In short, start building the world of 2100 today.  It's going to
be built one way or another; early adopters will have more
problems to solve and go down more blind alleys, but that's the
price of coming out on top in the long run.

:o)


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From mezger.benjamin at gmail.com  Mon Oct  5 04:55:55 2015
From: mezger.benjamin at gmail.com (Ben Mezger)
Date: Mon, 05 Oct 2015 08:55:55 -0300
Subject: Today Is the Day We Got Rid of the Surveillance State GDR.
Message-ID: <m2fv1psf5g.fsf@gmail.com>

https://tutanota.com/blog/posts/german-unity-day

-- 
Sent with my mu4e
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From coderman at gmail.com  Mon Oct  5 09:23:05 2015
From: coderman at gmail.com (coderman)
Date: Mon, 5 Oct 2015 09:23:05 -0700
Subject: FOIPA adventures
In-Reply-To: <CAJVRA1S4=X5P6hKnZu224GjseL5ws1vRm6Gk4gJ+DG06oLjaDA@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAJVRA1SaJpNaPQx=s_7VVM==ony2sH0aUG3w11cjNX6escSm8w@mail.gmail.com>
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 <CAJVRA1RDN6HsLCbF_wsK+zARO9PaEn80R9FSGnWgGVF4XkbbpQ@mail.gmail.com>
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 <CAJVRA1RWaiCZtig6+Seyk-UN9M3h9+2iZ0Otnqb6n=AFcRAeRw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAJVRA1QzHeh=rs0hRf0sugLZdbXvAhK+2Yte5Tbt_Tnv5Tf8mg@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAJVRA1SdAW+36Z8yYTdSFTtz8S8U5aiELv5NiuXg5Rg-vaFYew@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAJVRA1Svk488ax6sd4oy52rfM_u_E1EuzhUAQt6cQ2Jy5yRx5g@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAJVRA1S4=X5P6hKnZu224GjseL5ws1vRm6Gk4gJ+DG06oLjaDA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAJVRA1RsgoKvADCcRz76vj1xjT+EQDB96tw7-sgg_pf+BGzA=A@mail.gmail.com>

honestly didn't think i'd get a useful reply to this one:
" [regarding SCIFs]
Records associated with self inspection of classified materials
handling pursuant to Executive Order (E.O.) 13526 and E.O. 13587
performed by the agency for the last ten (10) years. Please include
results of inspection and especially guidance resulting from analysis
of reviewed activities and materials. Inspection records associated
with effectiveness of original classification, effectiveness of
derivative classification, safeguarding material, security training,
security violations, and auditing / oversight are specifically
requested. Thank you!
"

and yet!
 "Please see the NRO partial response to your recent FOIA request."
https://www.muckrock.com/foi/united-states-of-america-10/eeeieeeohorder-21368/#file-56655

:P

best regards,




From coderman at gmail.com  Mon Oct  5 09:29:36 2015
From: coderman at gmail.com (coderman)
Date: Mon, 5 Oct 2015 09:29:36 -0700
Subject: FOIPA adventures
In-Reply-To: <CAJVRA1RsgoKvADCcRz76vj1xjT+EQDB96tw7-sgg_pf+BGzA=A@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAJVRA1SaJpNaPQx=s_7VVM==ony2sH0aUG3w11cjNX6escSm8w@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAJVRA1TUfu40206TOzK2kBsgCvbgBYYXmyKZ3E5n4KQuoEtZyg@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAJVRA1QtgMky_hsDLsmFwiXcxE528bZaDOQsjTqqj4tR-dbGBQ@mail.gmail.com>
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 <CAJVRA1SyW_wOUcFUo6STbiePO8HmLV9LgF-PCgugvuPRD_tKWA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAJVRA1QaYYF=hoSQiSd4SHNUj-W6hjEJDhy1KxR9CfFKDgNkew@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAJVRA1TvZxj_qz6_xK8h13LOD-5mE6iNvT9dnThf4ue0_=kY3Q@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAJVRA1RbeuzfiVAOqaZ15p8kr67jxcBoNMOrJkt3K86_=FuVXw@mail.gmail.com>
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 <CAJVRA1RsgoKvADCcRz76vj1xjT+EQDB96tw7-sgg_pf+BGzA=A@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAJVRA1TOMYnBh0-B=uh6n2HsOsFdY+SKVG-=XqKi6WPNro++PA@mail.gmail.com>

On 10/5/15, coderman <coderman at gmail.com> wrote:
> honestly didn't think i'd get a useful reply to this one:
> " [regarding SCIFs]

...

https://muckrock.s3.amazonaws.com/foia_files/2015/09/29/F15-0117_Peck.PDF

NATIONAL RECONNAISSANCE OFFICE
14675 Lee Road
Chantilly, VA 20151-1715

28 September 2015
Mr. Martin Peck
MuckRock
DEPT MR 21368
PO Box 55819
Boston, MA 02205-5819
Re: NRO Case #F15-0117
Dear Mr. Peck:
This is in response to your request dated 19 September 2015, received
in the National Reconnaissance Office (NRO) on 21 September 2015. Pursuant
to the Freedom of Information Act, you are requesting "Records associated
with self inspection of classified materials handling pursuant to Executive
Order (E.O.) 13526 and E.O. 13587 for the last ten (10) years."
We have accepted your request, and it is being processed in accordance
with the FOIA, 5 U.S.C. § 552, as amended. As an interim release in
response to your request, we are providing to you thirty-nine pages of
responsive information that has previously been released in part to another
requester. These pages are being released in part to you, as well.
Information that is denied is withheld pursuant to FOIA exemption (b)(3),
which is the basis for withholding information exempt from disclosure by
statute. The relevant withholding statute is 10 U.S.C. § 424, which
provides (except as required by the President or for information provided to
Congress), that no provision of law shall be construed to require the
disclosure of the organization or any function of the NRO; the number of
persons employed by or assigned or detailed to the NRO; or the name or
official title, occupational series, grade, or salary of any such person.
Since it is unlikely we will be able to provide a complete response
within the 20 working days stipulated by the Act, you have the right to
consider this a denial and may appeal on this basis to the NRO Appeal Review
Panel, 14675 Lee Road, Chantilly, VA 20151-1715 after the initial 20 working
day period has elapsed. It would seem more reasonable, however, to allow us
sufficient time to continue processing your request and respond as soon as
we can. Unless we hear from you otherwise, we will assume that you agree
and will continue processing your FOIA request on this basis. You will have
the right to appeal any denial of records after you receive a final response
to your request.
The FOIA authorizes federal agencies to assess fees for record
services. Based upon the information provided, you have been placed in the
"other" category of requesters, which means you are responsible for the cost
of search time exceeding two hours ($44.00/hour) and reproduction fees ($.15
per page) exceeding 100 pages. We will notify you if it appears that we will

meet or exceed our $25.00 minimum billing threshold in processing your
request. Additional information about fees can be found on our website at
www.nro.gov .
If you have any questions, please call the Requester Services Center
at 703 - 227-9326, and reference the case number F15-0117.

atricia B. Cameresi
Chief, Information Review
and Release Group
Enclosure: Responsive information for 2012 & 2013

UNCLASSIFIED NRO APPROVED FOR RELEASE

28 August 2014
NATIONAL RECONNAISSANCE OFFICE
14675 Lee Road
Chantilly, VA 20151-1715

MEMORANDUM FOR OFFICE OF THE UNDER SECRETARY OF DEFENSE FOR
INTELLIGENCE SECURITY POLICY AND OVERSIGHT DIRECTORATE
SUBJECT: Annual Self - Inspection Report
REFERENCES: OUSD(I) Memorandum, Annual Senior Agency Official
Self - Inspection Program Report for Classified
National Security Information, 8 July 2013
The National Reconnaissance Office (NRO) is providing the
attached Self - Inspection Report as requested in reference.
oint of contact for questions concerning this submission is

A. Jamieson Burnett
Director, Office of Security
and Counterintelligence
Attachment:
NRO Annual Self-Inspection Report for 2013

UNCLASSIFIED

NRO APPROVED FOR RELEASE
28 August 2014

Enclosure 2
AGENCY ANNUAL SELF-INSPECTION PROGRAM DATA: FY 2013
(Submissions must be unclassified.)

PART A: identifying Information
1. Enter the agency name.

1. National

Reconnaissance Office (NRO)

2. Enter the date of this report.
3. Enter the name, title, address, phone, fax, and e-mail address of the
Senior
Agency Official (SAO) (as defined in E.O. 13526, section 5.4(d)) responsible
for this report.

2 . 30
3.

4. Enter the name, title, phone, fax, and e-mail address of the
individual or
office responsible for conducting self-inspections and reporting findings.

4.

5. Enter the name, title, phone, fax, and e-mail address for the
point-ofcontact responsible for answering questions regarding this
report.

5

September 2013

Mr. Frank Calvelli
Principal De suty Director, NRO
Room (b)(3) 10 US(
14675 Lee Road, Chantilly, VA 20151

A. Jamieson Burnett
Director, Office of Security and
Counterintelli .ence,
(b)(3) 10 USC 44 Finn=
(b)(3) 10 USC 424

Chief Securit and Counterintelli ence Policy
.

Staff,

(b)(3) 10 USC 424

Fax (b)(3)

10 USC 424

(b)(3) 10 USC 424

PART B: Classified National Security Information (CNSI) Program Profile
Information
6. Has your agency been designated/delegated as an original
classification authority (OCA)?
7. Does your agency perform original classification activity?
8. Does your agency perform derivative classification activity?
9. Does your agency have an approved declassification guide and declassify CNSI?

6.

7.
8.
9

â–  No
_I Yes â–  No
Yes â–  No
❑ Yes ■ No
❑

Yes

❑

PART C: Description of the Program
A description of the agency's self-inspection program to include
activities assessed, program areas covered, and methodology
utilized. The
description must demonstrate how the self-inspection program provides
the SAO with information necessary to
assess the effectiveness of the CNSI

program within individual agency activities and the agency as a whole.

Responsibility
10. How is the SAO involved in the self-inspection program? (Describe
his or her involvement with the self-inspection program.)

The Director of Security and Counterintelligence (D/OS&CI) advises the
Senior Agency Official (SAO) when
events warrant. The NRO Integrated Security Assessment Program (ISAP)
results are also reported to the SAO
thru the annual Management Control Plan Statement of Assurance (MCPSOA).
11. How is the self-inspection program structured to provide the SAO
with information necessary to assess the agency's CNSI program in
order to
fulfill his or her responsibilities under section 5.4(d) of E.O. 13526?

The DOS&CI receives periodic reports on the program and advises the
SAO when the DOS&CI believes events
warrant advising the SAO. The NRO ISAP results are also reported to
the SAO thru the annual MCPSOA.
12. Whom has the SAO designated to assist in directing and
administering the self-inspection program? Who conducts the
self-inspections?
(If the SAO conducts the self-inspections, which may be the case in
smaller agencies, indicate this.)

The DOS&CI is provided a Letter of Instruction by the Director, NRO
which assigns his responsibilities.

Approach

(b)(3) 10 USC 424

13. What means and methods are employed in conducting self-inspections?
(For example: interviews, surveys, data calls, checklists, analysis, etc.)

NRO self-inspections are part of the NRO ISAP. Because contractors
make upillif the total NRO workforce
and have the overwhelming number of Sensitive Compartmented
Information Facilities (SCIFs), ISAP is a
collaborative
between Government and industry to identify and address security
vulnerabilities, provide
, . ,
, process
•
ri •
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14. If your agency performs different types of inspections (e.g.,
component self-inspections, command inspections, compliance reviews,
etc.),
describe each of them and explain how they are used. If not, indicate NA.

NA

15. Do your agency's self-inspections evaluate adherence to the
principles and requirements of E.O. 13526 and its implementing
directive and the
effectiveness of agency programs covering the following areas? (Select
all that apply.)
Original classification
Cl Security violations
[ 1 Safeguarding
__I Management and oversight
Derivative classification
â–  Declassification
11 Security education and training
16. Do your self-inspections include a review of relevant security
directives and instructions?
16. â–  Yes 7 No
17. Do your self-inspections include interviews with producers (where
applicable) and users of classified information?
17. H Yes â–  No
Approach: Representative Sample
(If your agency does not classify information, indicate NA.)
18. Do your self-inspections include reviews of representative samples
of original and derivative classification
18.
Yes â–  No â–  NA
actions to evaluate the appropriateness of classification and the
proper application of document markings?
19. Do these reviews encompass all agency activities that generate
classified information?
19. â–  Yes
No â–  NA
❑

20. Describe below how the agency identifies activities and offices
whose documents are to be included in the sample of classification
actions.
(Indicate if NA.)

Based on the 291 site self-assessments submitted, the ISAP Manager,
Program Security Officers (PSOs) and
stakeholders discuss findings and formulate recommendations for a
formal assessment, if required. OS&CI

talePhnlrle.re rPrirpcAnt the tr. inr (IC R,- rr clirp.rtnratF•c and
nrnrrram ref-St-.F. cv rnrift, etafFc int...II
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21. Do the reviews include a sampling of various types of classified
information in document and electronic
21. — Yes ■ No ■ NA
formats?

22. How do you ensure that the materials reviewed provide a
representative sample of the agency's classified information?
(Indicate if NA.)

Documents are selected for review in cooperation with site personnel
who are familiar with the type of materials
produced by the site. However, contractors are not required to count
classified pages produced because of the
additional costs that would be incurred by the NRO, so the documents
reviewed may not be a representative
1

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23. How do you determine that the sample is proportionally sufficient
to enable a credible assessment of your agency's classified product?
(Indicate if NA.)

We do not attempt to do this as it would increase costs to the NRO (as
explained in item 22 above).
24. Who conducts the review of the classified product? (Indicate if NA.)

PSOs and Classification Management Officers (CMOs).
25. Are the personnel who conduct the reviews knowledgeable of the
classification and marking requirements of
E.O. 13526 and its implementing directive?
26. Do they have access to pertinent security classification guides?
(Indicate if NA.)
27. Have appropriate personnel been designated to correct
misclassification actions? (Indicate if NA.)
If so, identify below.

â–  No â–  NA
❑ Yes ■ No ■ NA

25. D Yes
26.

27. El Yes

â–  No â–  NA

Frequency
28. How frequently are self-inspections conducted?

Annually.
29. Describe the factors that were considered in establishing this time period?

The time period is defined in the NRO Security Manual (NSM).

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Coverage
30. How do you determine what offices, activities, divisions, etc.,
are covered by your self-inspection program?

assessed?

What agency activities are

Self-assessments are to be completed on each contractor SCIF. All
contractor activities are assessed.
31. How is the self-inspection program structured to assess individual
agency activities and the agency as a whole?

Contractor SCIF locations far outnumber government SCIF locations in
the NRO. Government locations are
relatively few in number and have professional government security
officers assigned who can monitor
safeguarding and classified information production and correct errors
as they occur. We chose to concentrate on
.

1

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1

.. •

Special Access Programs (SAP)
(If your agency does not have the authority to create SAPs, indicate NA.)
32. If your agency has any special access programs, are
self-inspections of the SAP programs conducted annually?
33. Do the self-inspections confirm that the agency head or principal
deputy has reviewed each special access
program annually to determine if it continues to meet the requirements
of E.O. 13526?
34. Do the self-inspections determine if officers and employees are
aware of the prohibitions and sanctions for
creating or continuing a special access program contrary to the
requirements of E.O. 13526?

32.
33.
34•

â–  No â–  NA
—I Yes III No ■ NA
Yes III No â–  NA

❑

Yes

❑

Reporting
35. What is the format for documenting self-inspections in your agency?

Self-assessments are documented using the self-assessment review tool
in the NSM, Appendix B. For formal
assessments, an out-briefing is provided to site security staff and
other site senior management identifying
ori

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nhcanratinna and am,

36. Who receives the reports?

cAri

1 rift! "ha et nr nti ni.c " fl I c nrafArPrl di Irina the frorm it

The OS&CI ISAP Manager.
37. Who compiles/analyzes the reports?

The ISAP Manager and the responsible PSO analyze the report.
38. How are the findings analyzed to determine if there are problems
of a systemic nature?

The ISAP Manager provides to the sponsoring Government Program
Security Officer (GPSO) for review and
subsequent action.
39. How and when are the results of the self-inspections reported to the SAO?

The DOS&CI determines when results warrant informing the SAO.

40. How is it determined if corrective actions are required?

The Government PSO and security stakeholder(s) reviews determine if
corrective actions are required.
41. Who takes the corrective actions?

The assessed site.
42. How are the findings from your agency's self-inspection program
distilled for the annual report to the Director of ISOO?

The OS&CI Security Policy Staff (SPS) tasks the ISAP Manager to
distill the findings and provide them to SPS
for inclusion in the annual report.
43. Has the SAO formally endorsed this self-inspection report?
IN FORMATION SECURITY OVERSIGHT OFFICE

43.

â–  Yes

❑

No

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PART D: A summary of the findings of your agency's self-inspection program
The summary should present specific, concise findings from your
self-inspection program for each of the required program areas below.
It is not a
description of the requirements of the agency's CNSI program. Rather,
the summary outlines the essential self-inspection findings based on
the
compilation and/or distillation of the information contained in the
agency's internal self-inspection reports, checklists, etc. In large
agencies where
findings are drawn from multiple agency offices and activities, the
findings that are reported here may be the most significant or most
frequently
occurring.
44. Original Classification:

OCAs are senior officers and mainly exercise their authority through
the signing of classification guides for
information unique to their activity. While OCA decisions get
implemented through the classification guide,
written documentation of individual OCA decisions is difficult or
impossible to locate. OCA's were not using
the appropriate OCA classification block but a derivative block. OS&CI
Policy Branch will issue clear
instructions for all classification guides to contain the appropriate
OCA classification block.
45. Derivative Classification:

NRO activities result in complicated Power Point slide briefings with
complex tables, diagrams, and text boxes
describing engineering and R&D activities. Under reduced manning from
sequestration and budget cuts which
have resulted in a loss of over 1,000 man-years of experience across
the NRO, derivative classifiers struggle to
get all derivative markings accurate after they have compiled
difficult subject matter on compressed time lines
under stressful conditions. It is admirable that individuals perform
as well as they do.
46. Declassification:

Not included in self-inspection.

47. Safeguarding:

Regular conduct of exercises provides vital feedback to the physical
security program. Exercises identify areas
for corrective measures, enhancements, validates current tactics
techniques and procedures (TTP) and the
adoption/employment of new TTP to meet a dynamic threat environment.
Regular inspections/audits are
essential to ensuring status and validity of issued IC badges and
conformity to physical security requirements.
Risk assessments/physical security assessments provide a helpful
"outside" perspective to site security offices.
48. Security Violations:

The ISAP program is the formal mechanism by which we corroborate
self-inspections. Included in these formal
reviews is an assessment of the respective security violation program
and trends. In addition, each component
Security team evaluates Security incidents and violations by tracking
them according to general broad categories.
During this past FY, the majority (63%) of incidents/violations were
related to categories within personnel
electronic devices in SCIFs. Other categories that have multiple
occurrences indicating potential trends are data
49. Security Education and Training:

100% of personnel assigned to the NRO are required to complete an SCI
indoctrination briefing to include
signing a Non-Disclosure Agreement. E.O. 13526 is called out
specifically so that personnel fully understand
their responsibilities and requirements to protect classified
information. This message is repeated by the release
of awareness videos and reminders throughout the year; to include
presentations, written materials, and training.
Specifically, OS&CI incorporates classification management questions
within the Annual Security Refresher
50. Management and Oversight:

Government oversight of NRO-sponsored SCIFs is achieved in a multi
faceted manner. Program Security
Officers, Physical/Technical, and Computer Security Officers review
self-assessment results and participate in
on-site reviews. Some program findings for FY 13 were identified in
the following areas:
• Standard Operating Procedures (SOPs) require more detail and more
frequent revision to stay up-to-date with
security requirements.

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PART E: An assessment of the findings of your agency's self-inspection program
The assessment

discerns what the findings mean. The assessment is an evaluation of
the state of each element of your agency's CNSI program
based on an analysis of the specific, concise findings of the
self-inspection program. It reports what you have determined the
findings indicate about
the state of your agency's CNSI program.
The assessment should inform the SAO and other decision makers of
significant issues that impact the CNSI program. It should be used to
determine
how security programs can be improved, whether the agency regulation
or other policies and procedures must be updated, and if necessary
resources
are committed to the effective implementation of the CNSI program. The
assessment should report trends that were identified during the
reporting
period across the agency or in particular activities, as well as
trends detected by making comparisons with earlier reporting periods.
It can be used to
support assertions about the successes and strengths of an agency's program.
51. Original Classification:

While OCA's produce timely and sufficient Classification Guides,
decisions are not normally documented
outside the guide by a separate source document. OCAs are not using an
OCA style classification block but this
will be corrected soon when specific detailed policy is issued by
Security Policy.
52. Derivative Classification:

Derivative classifiers are still wrestling with proper portion marking
and classification of complex power point
slide presentations and other documents concerning difficult subject
matter and formats. To try and stem this
tide, we are adding more classification management questions to our
ASR. Dwindling budgets, reduced
manpower, and "greening" (reducing) of salaries has reduced longevity,
increased turnover, and reduced portion
marking proficiency.
53. Declassification:

Not included in self-inspection.

54. Safeguarding:

Awareness and education programs are vital to ensuring the workforce
maintains awareness of security policy
and procedures. Regular and aperiodic exercises, inspections, and
audits provide crucial inputs that are
indispensable to ensuring that the physical security program is
current and effective. Key challenges are
maintaining adequate funding to replace aging, malfunctioning, and
obsolete security equipment and training and
education for new personnel. The NRO has an organization-level process
for the Assessment and Authorization
55. Security Violations:

The NSM detail the NRO process for reporting and investigating
security incidents, infractions and violations.
Appropriate and prompt corrective actions were taken to mitigate the
severity of the infraction/violation, and to
sanction the offender via management, counterintelligence, and
personnel security processes. Infractions and
violations are centrally tracked in the Security Log (the NRO
incident/violation database). This database is
managed by the Program Security Officers in each directorate and
office, and enables the PSO to automatically
56. Security Education and Training:

OS&CI works closely with PSOs, Counterintelligence personnel, and the
Integrated Self Assessment Program
to determine any trends or specific areas that need an additional
educational awareness campaign. Security
communications are then targeted, utilizing large scale efforts, per a
topic area and audience for best impact
results. The NRO is adding additional classification management
questions to the Annual Security Refresher to
better satisfy the derivative classification training requirement.
OCAs complete yearly training provided by
57. Management and Oversight:

The NRO has a very mature Security management and oversight program.
Over the past FY, much greater
emphasis has been placed on ensuring all sites and facilities
accomplished the self-assessments and submited the
findings to the Government within the mandated time requirements. This
improved management oversight has
made an impact. Our self-inspection program coupled with security
officer visits, and formal team assessments
provide managers a report card on the health of our security programs.
When negative trends are identified,
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PART F: Focus Questions
Answer the questions below. If the response identifies a deficiency,
it should be explained in Part D, Summary of Findings, under the
relevant
program area, and should be addressed in Part H, Corrective Actions.
Training for Original Classification Authorities
Original classification authorities are required to receive training
in proper classification and declassification each calendar year.
(Section 1.3(d) of
E.O. 13526 and § 2001.70(c) of 32 C.F.R. Part 2001) (Indicate NA
ifyour agency does not have original classification authority)
58. Does agency policy require training for original classifiers?
58.
Yes â–  No â–  NA
59. Has the agency validated that this training has been received?
59. I Yes â–  No â–  NA
❑

100

60. What percentage of the original classification authorities at your
agency has received this training?

60.

61. Have any waivers to this requirement been granted?

61. III Yes

Actual

â–  Estimated
No â–  NA

Persons who Apply Derivative Classification Markings
Persons who apply derivative classification markings are required to
receive training in the proper application of the derivative
classification
principles of E.O. 13526, prior to derivatively classifying
information and at least once every two years thereafter. (Section
2.1(d) of E.O. 13526 and
§ 2001.70(d) of 32 C.F.R. Part 2001) (Indicate NA if your agency does
not have any personnel who derivatively classify information)
62. Does agency policy require training for derivative classifiers?
62. • Yes Ill No III NA
63. Has the agency validated that this training has been received?
63.
Yes â–  No â–  NA
64. What percentage of the derivative classifiers at your agency has
received this training?

64.

â–

100
Actual

Estimated

65. â–  Yes i No
Initial Training
All cleared agency personnel are required to receive initial training
on basic security policies, principles, practices, and criminal,
civil, and
administrative penalties. (0 2001.70(6) of 32 C.F.R. Part 2001)
66. Does agency policy require initial training?
66. ❑ Yes ■ No
65. Have any waivers to this requirement been granted?

67. Has the agency validated that this training has been received?

67.

❑

68. What percentage of cleared personnel at your agency has received
this training?

68.

100

70. Has the agency validated that this training has been received?

70.

71. What percentage of the cleared employees at your agency has
received this training?

71. 100
Actual

Yes

â–  NA

â–  No

LI Actual • Estimated
Annual Refresher Training
Agencies are required to provide annual refresher training to all
employees who create, process, or handle classified information. (§
2001.70() of
32 C.F.R. Part 2001)
69. Does agency policy require annual refresher training?
69.
Yes â–  No
❑

rl Yes â–  No

â–  Estimated
Identification of Derivative Classifiers on Derivatively Classified Documents
Derivative classifiers must be identified by name and position, or by
personal identifier on each classified document. (Section 2.1(b)(1) of
E.O.
13526 and § 2001.22(b) of 32 C.F.R. Part 2001) (Indicate NA ifyour
agency does not derivatively classify information.)
72. Does your agency's review of classification actions evaluate if
this requirement is being met`'
72.
Yes â–  No â–  NA
73. What percentage of the documents sampled meet this requirement?

73 .

74. What was the number of documents reviewed for this requirement?

74.

87
166,130 pages

List of Sources on Documents Derivatively Classified from Multiple Sources
A list of sources must be included on or attached to each derivatively
classified document that is classified based on more than one source
document
or classification guide. (§ 2001.22c(l)(ii) of 32 C.F.R. Part 2001)
75. Does your agency's review of classification actions evaluate if
this requirement is being met?
75. • Yes ■ No ■ NA
76. What percentage of the documents sampled meet this requirement?
76. 88
77. What was the number of documents reviewed for this requirement?

INFORMATION SECURITY OVERSIGHT OFFICE

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mauct nvatuations

performance contract or other rating system of original classification
authorities, security managers, and other personnel whose duties
significantly involve the creation or handling of classified
information must include a critical element to be evaluated relating
to designation and
management of classified information. (Section 5.4(d)(7) of E.O. 13526 )

78. Does agency policy require this critical element in the
performance evaluations of personnel in the
categories required by E.O. 13526?
79. Has the agency validated that this critical element is included in
the performance evaluations of
personnel in the categories requited by E.O. 13526?
80. What percentage of such personnel at your agency has this element
in their performance
evaluations?

OCA Delegations

â–  Yes No
79.â–  Yes 0 No
78.

❑

80. 50%
Actual

•

Estimated

OCA delegations shall be reported or made available by name or
position to the Director of the Information Security Oversight Office.
(Section
I .3(c)(5) of E.O. /3526). This can be accomplished by an initial
submission followed by updates on a frequency determined by the £40,
but at least
annually. 02001.11 (c) and §2001.90(a) of 32 C.F.R. Part 2001)

81. Have there been any changes in the delegations, by name and
position, of original classification
authority in your agency since delegations were reported to ISOO in 2010.
82. Have all delegations been limited to the minimum required based on
a demonstrable and
continuing need to exercise this authority?
83. If changes have been made, have they been reported, by name or
position, to ISOO?

81.
82.

83.

â–  Yes

No

â–

NA

Yes MI No I. NA

â–  Yes â–  No

NA

Classification Challenges
An agency head or SAO shall establish procedures under which
authorized holders of information. including authorized holders
outside the
classifying agency, are encouraged and expected to challenge the
classification of information that they believe is improperly
classified or
unclassified. (Section 1.8(b) of E.O. 13526) Classification challenges
must be covered in the trainingfor original classification authorities
and
persons who apply derivative classification markings. 02001.7 1
and (§2001.71(d) of 32 C.F.R. Part 2001)

84. Has your agency established procedures under which the
classification of information can be
challenged in accordance with section 1.8(b) of E.O. 13526 and
§2001.14 of 32 C.F.R. Part 2001?
85. Does your agency's training for OCAS and for personnel who apply
derivative classification
markings cover classification challenges?
86. Does your agency's training for all other cleared personnel cover
classification challenges?

84•

Yes

85.

â–  Yes

86. III Yes
PART G: Findings of the Annual Review of Agency's Original and
Derivative Classification Actions

â–  No â–  NA
❑

❑

No â–  NA
No

In this section provide specific information with regard to the
findings of the annual review of the agency's original and derivative
classification
actions to include the volume of classified materials reviewed and the
number and type of discrepancies identified.

87. Indicate the volume of classified materials reviewed
during the annual review of agency's original and derivative
classification actions. (If your agency does not classify information,
indicate NA.)
87. 166,130 pages
88. Indicate the number of discrepancies found during the annual
review of classification actions for each category below. For
additional
information on marking, consult the ISOO marking guide.
88 (a) Over-classification: Information does not meet the standards
for classification.
88 (a) 28,798
88 (b) Overgraded/Undergraded: Information classified at a
higher/lower level than appropriate.
88
(b) 42,779
88 (c) Declassification: Improper or incomplete declassification
instructions or no declassification instructions.
88 (c) 24,043
88 (d) Duration: a shorter duration of classification would be appropriate.
88 (d) 13,889
88(e) Unauthorized classifier: A classification action was taken by
someone not authorized to do so.
88(e)
0
88 (f) "Classified By" line: A document does not identify the OCA or
derivative classifier by name and position
or by personal identifier.
88 (f) 22,368
88 (g) "Reason" line: an originally classified document does not cite
a reason from section 1.4 of E.O. 13526.
88
(g) 0
88 (h) "Derived From" line: A document fails to cite, or cites
improperly, the classification source. The line
should include type of document, date of document, subject, and
office/agency of origin.
88 017,096
88 (i) Multiple sources: A document cites "Multiple Sources" as the
basis for classification, but a list of these
sources is not included on or attached to the document.
88 (i) 19,190
88(j) Marking: A document lacks overall classification markings or has
improper overall classification markings.
88 (j) 34,141
88 (k) Portion Marking: The document lacks some or all of the required
portion markings.
88 (k) 59,937
88(1) Instructions from a classification guide are not properly applied.
88 (1) 17,070
88 (m) Other:
.
88 (m) 0

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•
__ __..._ ..-..-...
89. Describe actions that have been taken or are
planned to correct identified program deficiencies, marking
discrepancies, or misclassification
actions, and to deter their reoccurrence.

OS&CI Policy Branch will issue written instructions that all
Classification Guides and original classification
decisions will use an OCA style classification block.
We plan to issue NRO-wide, monthly, short written educational
reminders of the most error-prone mistakes
reported in item 88 which will also include the proper way to classify
and mark materials.

PART I: Best Practices
Best practices are those actions or activities that

make your self-inspection program and/or CNSI program more effective
or efficient. They set your
program apart through innovation or by exceeding the minimum program
requirements. These are practices that may be utilized or emulated by

other agencies.

90. Describe best practices that were identified during the self-inspection.

One contractor site developed a database that allows self-assessments
to be completed by each program area at
that site. The database can apply filtering and reporting
capabilities, thereby allowing managers to focus
resources on a wide-range of security-related disciplines. This type
of approach and comprehensive tool
development had not been previously seen by the ISAP Program.

PART J: Explanatory Comments
Use this space to elaborate on any section of this form. If more space
is needed, provide as an attachment to this fonn. Provide explanations
for any
significant changes in trends/numbers from the previous year's report.

Item 16. All security directives and instructions are issued by the
DOS&CI and are reviewed and updated
annually but not as part of the self-inspection. All directives and
instructions are maintained on-line and are
accessible to all government employees and contractors.
(b)(3) 10 USC 424
Item 27. All government and contractor PSOs and CMOs (about ' '
'ndividuals) are authorized to correct
incorrect classification, incorrect use of SCI control channels, an•
incorrect dissemination restrictions.
Item 68. CIA personnel (including CIA contractors with Agency Data
Network or staff-like access) at the NRO
are required to take the CIA "2013 Derivative Classifier Training" by
their parent agency. All other government
and contractors at the NRO take their training through the Annual
Security Refresher briefing.
Item 78. The NRO is comprised of government individuals from various
agencies. Parent agencies set the rules
for their performance contract or rating system which cannot be
altered by the NRO. The percentage given
represents the percentage of individuals from agencies that require a
security performance evaluation statement.

For !SOO Use Only
ISOO Analyst:
Date QC:
Analyst Initials:

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UNCLASSIFIED

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NATIONAL RECONNAISSANCE OFFICE
14675 Lee Road
Chantilly, VA 20151-1 71 5

12 October 2012
MEMORANDUM FOR OFFICE OF THE UNDER SECRETARY OF DEFENSE FOR
INTELLIGENCE SECURITY DIRECTORATE


From zen at freedbms.net  Mon Oct  5 02:43:16 2015
From: zen at freedbms.net (Zenaan Harkness)
Date: Mon, 5 Oct 2015 09:43:16 +0000
Subject: How to minimize one's damage in case the usa kicks the bucket?
In-Reply-To: <20151005085119.GA2489@sivokote.iziade.m$>
References: <20151005085119.GA2489@sivokote.iziade.m$>
Message-ID: <CAOsGNSQ0mXaD_9DorvTG-ddyQiKtfEKpF1eKxYDgtXmAqV7t7g@mail.gmail.com>

On 10/5/15, Georgi Guninski <guninski at guninski.com> wrote:
> The financial situation in the usa is quite grave.

And their attempt to bomb USA-controlled gas and oil pipelines through
Afganistan, Turkey and Syria, are now a no go, evidently. So we can be
pretty sure the USA banking ponzi is close to resetting (the
diplomatic way to say collapsing), as happened in the Great
Depression/ 1929.


> Assume very severe financial crisis hits the usa relatively soon causing
> hyperinflation there and possibly in other countries.
>
> I am interested:  How to minimize one's damage in this situation?
>
> Some suspicions: Banks/exchanges are known Ponzi schemes, so how much
> the banking system will remain intact is unclear to me.
>
> Some possibilities
> real estate outside usa
> gold (is gold certificate secure enough?)
> bitcoins (some people got burnt, security of bitcoins not clear to me)
> ???

Real estate outside your present country, gold stash and bitcoins etc
just don't make sense to me. Property? Buy a farm with plenty of water
storage on it - get out of the city if you think prepping will be
important - stash some simple dry food (eg a tonne of mixed rice and
lentils, so you can even feed your neighbours for a year) and make
sure you have water and access to wood for boiling the water and
cooking the food, and at least you will survive.

There are plenty of websites promoting 'hard core' prepping. For a
historical perspective, check out what happened in 1929 and
thereafter.

Good luck,
Zenaan




From cathalgarvey at cathalgarvey.me  Mon Oct  5 02:10:04 2015
From: cathalgarvey at cathalgarvey.me (Cathal (Phone))
Date: Mon, 05 Oct 2015 10:10:04 +0100
Subject: How to minimize one's damage in case the usa kicks the bucket?
In-Reply-To: <20151005085119.GA2489@sivokote.iziade.m$>
References: <20151005085119.GA2489@sivokote.iziade.m$>
Message-ID: <DC3AFF1B-363E-4630-BBC1-B0A90047E6EB@cathalgarvey.me>

Real estate is only valuable if people can afford to rent it.

Bitcoin is already wildly price-manipulated by bots, true market value iimpossible to determine. In an economy crunch currencies universally suffer because they represent a medium of exchange only. Bitcoin especially so: it's a pure algorithmic abstraction of fiat value, worth literally nothing except that which both parties in a transaction agree upon.

Best way IMO: reduce your dependencies, rational-prepper style, and reduce your attack surface when the debts are called. Pay off debt now, buy insulation, solar panels. Learn a lot of DIY to maintain your lifestyle if you can't afford to pay others to do so. Learn a valuable skill in a future market crunch: hint, programming and encryption probably don't count much in case of total economic collapse.

Bear in mind that this isn't gonna happen quickly if it happens. It'll be slow, stepwise. Economic catastrophies every 5 years or so, progressively making the world a little shitter every time. The frantic dead-cat-bounce each time will be.more brittle and more loudly celebrated. Sound familiar? :)

The winning play, though by far the hardest, is to create an economic enclave that conserves local value and builds community resilience. Local currency would be cool, along with robust local mesh networking and local communication / broadcast media. Goal: when money outside your community declines, your currency exchange value can just change to compensate and thereby encourage local purchasing and export.

So, do we need an "economy in a box"; buy 100 cheap mesh networking boxes (black-swift.net?), burn in currency/message exchange software, install in local houses, distribute localised "economy in a box" apps to locals? It's something I'd love to see.

On 5 October 2015 09:51:19 IST, Georgi Guninski <guninski at guninski.com> wrote:
>The financial situation in the usa is quite grave.
>
>Assume very severe financial crisis hits the usa relatively soon
>causing
>hyperinflation there and possibly in other countries.
>
>I am interested:  How to minimize one's damage in this situation?
>
>Some suspicions: Banks/exchanges are known Ponzi schemes, so how much
>the banking system will remain intact is unclear to me.
>
>Some possibilities
>real estate outside usa
>gold (is gold certificate secure enough?)
>bitcoins (some people got burnt, security of bitcoins not clear to me)
>???
>
>Please post political rants in other thread.

-- 
Sent from my Android device with K-9 Mail. Please excuse my brevity.
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From Rayzer at riseup.net  Mon Oct  5 10:10:58 2015
From: Rayzer at riseup.net (Razer)
Date: Mon, 5 Oct 2015 10:10:58 -0700
Subject: Snowden on the Twitters
In-Reply-To: <4586955.ql64S1qWNN@lapuntu>
References: <CAD2Ti2-ZiZDAR_mLFAQqcgLVyyvrv2o2Kx3ri+jBK3o7aUF6QA@mail.gmail.com>
 <2462633.E2y7GV1oc3@lapuntu> <561170C0.1070202@riseup.net>
 <4586955.ql64S1qWNN@lapuntu>
Message-ID: <5612AF22.2010703@riseup.net>



On 10/05/2015 03:06 AM, rysiek wrote:
>> The middleman exists to see to it that the exchange is NOT entirely
>> > voluntary, and I'm back to that bloody fantasy about Marketers and sales
>> > engineers...
> Are you saying that if the exchange happens *without* money, it necessarily 
> happens *without* middlemen?
> Are you saying that if the exchange happens *with* money, it necessarily 
> happens *with* middlemen?
>
> Are you saying that if the exchange happens *with* money, it necessarily *is 
> not* entirely voluntary?
> Are you saying that if the exchange happens *without* money, it necessarily 
> *is* entirely voluntary?

I said: "The middleman exists to see to it that the exchange is NOT entirely voluntary..." (which, for a start, is why they hire or 'tempt into service with future rewards from the proceeds of their position in the middle of the transaction' armies of people with the biggest weapons)

No to the first, and the rest. I made no claim whatsoever that the medium of exchanges' form matters, and if you want an answer to the question YOU raised I do not believe the form matters.  

...and I'm back to that bloody fantasy about Marketers and sales engineers...

RR

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From Rayzer at riseup.net  Mon Oct  5 10:21:31 2015
From: Rayzer at riseup.net (Razer)
Date: Mon, 5 Oct 2015 10:21:31 -0700
Subject: juan's vision of free market WAS Snowden on the Twitters
In-Reply-To: <1630704.2mcmlWbHyF@lapuntu>
References: <20151004115158.GD2615@sivokote.iziade.m$>
 <56117804.755f8c0a.3616d.fffff75a@mx.google.com> <1630704.2mcmlWbHyF@lapuntu>
Message-ID: <5612B19B.3000205@riseup.net>



On 10/05/2015 02:33 AM, rysiek wrote:
> But you do realise that there are different views on what a "truly
> free market" is, right? Is it the one where is the least regulation?
> Is that the one where the better offer always wins? These are not
> necessarily the same, as cartels and monopolies strive in a "free
> market without regulation".

State monopoly or private is of no significance. Monopolies don't exist
in free markets. They exist in CORNERED markets which typically occur
because someone played with a loophole in the REGULATIONS of that
market, giving them an advantage, and allowing them to corner it.

Ask the Hunt boys how that worked out for them in Silver...



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From Rayzer at riseup.net  Mon Oct  5 10:27:31 2015
From: Rayzer at riseup.net (Razer)
Date: Mon, 5 Oct 2015 10:27:31 -0700
Subject: Sometimes Putin is a little bit cruel.
In-Reply-To: <2890777.nSFVrcJOqd@lapuntu>
References: <CAOsGNSTpa39gk8ZMrMoHiAJfYRmML6SWukdnAExfcZzMH7WJ1g@mail.gmail.com>
 <2890777.nSFVrcJOqd@lapuntu>
Message-ID: <5612B303.5000102@riseup.net>

On 10/05/2015 02:26 AM, rysiek wrote:
> I wonder what would Putin say about the difference between Chechen "turhrists" 
> and Donbas "freedom fighters"...
I know what Porter Goss would say about the Chechens:

> “I can tell you that there is a role in my mind, a proper role, for
> covert action to continue. And I would not call it ‘paramilitary’. I
> would call it ‘pure covert action’. And that would be things happening
> to the benefit of national security that just seem to happen. And
> there is not an American flag on them. And if somebody came to the
> President of the United States, he would be able to say, ‘I don’t know
> what you’re talking about.’”

~Porter Goss, former director of the CIA, Ship of Spies, BBC Radio 4, 15
January 2011

http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b00xgqx9

In case you’re wondering WHY so many Chechens are in the United States...

Tagged: #DirtyWars

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From rysiek at hackerspace.pl  Mon Oct  5 02:26:02 2015
From: rysiek at hackerspace.pl (rysiek)
Date: Mon, 05 Oct 2015 11:26:02 +0200
Subject: Sometimes Putin is a little bit cruel.
In-Reply-To: <CAOsGNSTpa39gk8ZMrMoHiAJfYRmML6SWukdnAExfcZzMH7WJ1g@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAOsGNSTpa39gk8ZMrMoHiAJfYRmML6SWukdnAExfcZzMH7WJ1g@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <2890777.nSFVrcJOqd@lapuntu>

Dnia poniedziałek, 5 października 2015 00:45:02 Zenaan Harkness pisze:
> http://russia-insider.com/en/politics/classic-putin-asks-west-explain-differ
> ence-between-moderate-and-immoderate-armed-groups-cue
> 
> Bad, bad Putin - you know such trolling embarrasses 'the west'
> (certainly can't call our politicians 'leaders', although sadly we do
> on the whole seem to follow them).

I wonder what would Putin say about the difference between Chechen "turhrists" 
and Donbas "freedom fighters"...

-- 
Pozdrawiam,
Michał "rysiek" Woźniak

Zmieniam klucz GPG :: http://rys.io/pl/147
GPG Key Transition :: http://rys.io/en/147
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From rysiek at hackerspace.pl  Mon Oct  5 02:33:45 2015
From: rysiek at hackerspace.pl (rysiek)
Date: Mon, 05 Oct 2015 11:33:45 +0200
Subject: juan's vision of free market WAS Snowden on the Twitters
In-Reply-To: <56117804.755f8c0a.3616d.fffff75a@mx.google.com>
References: <20151004115158.GD2615@sivokote.iziade.m$>
 <56117804.755f8c0a.3616d.fffff75a@mx.google.com>
Message-ID: <1630704.2mcmlWbHyF@lapuntu>

Dnia niedziela, 4 października 2015 16:08:55 Juan pisze:
> On Sun, 4 Oct 2015 14:51:58 +0300
> 
> Georgi Guninski <guninski at guninski.com> wrote:
> > >> 1. How do you distribute goods (food, shelter, shiny J-Pads, money?
> > >> etc)
> > >> 
> > >        free market
> > 
> > What is a sound definition of free market?
> 
> 	Georgi, if you are really interested in the topic, do your own
> 	homework.
> 
> 	http://jim.com/Molinari.htm

But you do realise that there are different views on what a "truly free 
market" is, right? Is it the one where is the least regulation? Is that the 
one where the better offer always wins? These are not necessarily the same, as 
cartels and monopolies strive in a "free market without regulation".

So, which is it for you? Tell me, and *then* I can do my research.

Being vague is a very good way to not go into a true discussion. If that's 
what you're after, good going. :)

> (...)
> > In particular:
> > 
> > 1. How does the ``free market'' prevents _cartels_ and stays free?
> > 2. In a stateless free market, what happens to orphans,
> > physically/mentally impaired people and the like?
> 
> 	They are sold as cat and dog food for the pets of the rich
> 	people.

Well, at least we're clear.

> > IMHO realworld implementation of ``free market'' is the law of the
> > jungle played with (virtual) money/goods on a Ponzi scheme playground
> > (check the thread about the usa debt).
> 
> 	That is, you don't know what "free market" means and yet you
> 	are wasting time discussing it and apparently trying to refute
> 	something you don't have a clue about it.

So which version of the "free market" you propose? There are many.

-- 
Pozdrawiam,
Michał "rysiek" Woźniak

Zmieniam klucz GPG :: http://rys.io/pl/147
GPG Key Transition :: http://rys.io/en/147
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From guninski at guninski.com  Mon Oct  5 01:51:19 2015
From: guninski at guninski.com (Georgi Guninski)
Date: Mon, 5 Oct 2015 11:51:19 +0300
Subject: How to minimize one's damage in case the usa kicks the bucket?
Message-ID: <20151005085119.GA2489@sivokote.iziade.m$>

The financial situation in the usa is quite grave.

Assume very severe financial crisis hits the usa relatively soon causing
hyperinflation there and possibly in other countries.

I am interested:  How to minimize one's damage in this situation?

Some suspicions: Banks/exchanges are known Ponzi schemes, so how much
the banking system will remain intact is unclear to me.

Some possibilities
real estate outside usa
gold (is gold certificate secure enough?)
bitcoins (some people got burnt, security of bitcoins not clear to me)
???

Please post political rants in other thread.




From rysiek at hackerspace.pl  Mon Oct  5 03:06:41 2015
From: rysiek at hackerspace.pl (rysiek)
Date: Mon, 05 Oct 2015 12:06:41 +0200
Subject: Snowden on the Twitters
In-Reply-To: <561170C0.1070202@riseup.net>
References: <CAD2Ti2-ZiZDAR_mLFAQqcgLVyyvrv2o2Kx3ri+jBK3o7aUF6QA@mail.gmail.com>
 <2462633.E2y7GV1oc3@lapuntu> <561170C0.1070202@riseup.net>
Message-ID: <4586955.ql64S1qWNN@lapuntu>

Dnia niedziela, 4 października 2015 11:32:32 Razer pisze:
> On 10/04/2015 10:22 AM, rysiek wrote:
> > Dnia niedziela, 4 października 2015 09:38:24 Razer pisze:
> >> On 10/04/2015 08:54 AM, rysiek wrote:
> >>> Whether that thing is "money" as we think of it today, sea shells,
> >>> BitCoin
> >>> or anything else, is utterly irrelevant here.
> >> 
> >> But the value of the middleman in the transaction sure isn't.
> >> 
> >> Anarchist Economics 101 >> http://imgur.com/pQm0ZGs
> > 
> > When A buys X from B for amount Y, it means that both of them value what
> > they are giving away (A: X; B: Y) less than what they are receiving,
> > otherwise they wouldn't do it. In any volountary exchange, including when
> > money is involved, both A and B benefit.
> > 
> > See? It's simple!
> 
> The middleman exists to see to it that the exchange is NOT entirely
> voluntary, and I'm back to that bloody fantasy about Marketers and sales
> engineers...

Are you saying that if the exchange happens *without* money, it necessarily 
happens *without* middlemen?
Are you saying that if the exchange happens *with* money, it necessarily 
happens *with* middlemen?

Are you saying that if the exchange happens *with* money, it necessarily *is 
not* entirely voluntary?
Are you saying that if the exchange happens *without* money, it necessarily 
*is* entirely voluntary?

-- 
Pozdrawiam,
Michał "rysiek" Woźniak

Zmieniam klucz GPG :: http://rys.io/pl/147
GPG Key Transition :: http://rys.io/en/147
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From tbiehn at gmail.com  Mon Oct  5 09:26:17 2015
From: tbiehn at gmail.com (Travis Biehn)
Date: Mon, 5 Oct 2015 12:26:17 -0400
Subject: Introduce randommess in keypress timings
In-Reply-To: <5322517.CKX7oq6BXK@lapuntu>
References: <5322517.CKX7oq6BXK@lapuntu>
Message-ID: <CAKtE3zcPcjSmgrPcvZ+t1xA7OpZiNrrRyJ7FSdJgWNQX5dmpwg@mail.gmail.com>

Rysiek,
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Keystroke_dynamics

We may first want to understand the minimum resolution that timing
requires. Keypress events can be randomized within this interval.

Another track:
170WPM ~= 42000 KPH ~= 11 KPS

So, maybe we have 90ms delay on average between keystrokes for a speed
typist.

I didn't realize you could use keystroke analysis to identify one person
out of a pool of millions, rather, that a certain keystroke pattern matches
as best a certain subset of users but it wouldn't be valuable/practical for
positive identification. Text analysis is probably a way more useful signal.

In for more details,

-Travis


On Mon, Oct 5, 2015 at 11:50 AM, rysiek <rysiek at hackerspace.pl> wrote:

> Hi all,
>
> so, as we all know, Big Brothers tend to use keypress timings to identify
> users on the Net. This of course leads to a question: are there ways to
> introduce randomness in keypress timings?
>
> I imagine a Linux kernel module that could be doing this, for instance.
> Anybody heard of anything like this?
>
> There are things like All is Text:
> https://addons.mozilla.org/pl/firefox/addon/its-all-text/
>
> But this is not really a solution, rather a work-around (for instance it
> does
> not solve the problem for multiple browsers).
>
> --
> Pozdrawiam,
> Michał "rysiek" Woźniak
>
> Zmieniam klucz GPG :: http://rys.io/pl/147
> GPG Key Transition :: http://rys.io/en/147




-- 
Twitter <https://twitter.com/tbiehn> | LinkedIn
<http://www.linkedin.com/in/travisbiehn> | GitHub <http://github.com/tbiehn>
| TravisBiehn.com <http://www.travisbiehn.com> | Google Plus
<https://plus.google.com/+TravisBiehn>
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From cathalgarvey at cathalgarvey.me  Mon Oct  5 04:30:09 2015
From: cathalgarvey at cathalgarvey.me (Cathal (Phone))
Date: Mon, 05 Oct 2015 12:30:09 +0100
Subject: How to minimize one's damage in case the usa kicks the bucket?
In-Reply-To: <56125C89.2000304@pilobilus.net>
References: <20151005085119.GA2489@sivokote.iziade.m$>
 <CAOsGNSQ0mXaD_9DorvTG-ddyQiKtfEKpF1eKxYDgtXmAqV7t7g@mail.gmail.com>
 <56125C89.2000304@pilobilus.net>
Message-ID: <6F4B1D3E-A251-47E9-98FD-144E966519C0@cathalgarvey.me>

My favourite pithy version of this: "collapse now and avoid the rush". :)

On 5 October 2015 12:18:33 IST, Steve Kinney <admin at pilobilus.net> wrote:
>-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
>Hash: SHA1
>
>On 10/05/2015 05:43 AM, Zenaan Harkness wrote:
>
>Good ideas in this thread so far.  What I would add is, get the F
>away from population centers; they are very hungry machines that
>will start to fail in very bad ways whenever any of their major
>inputs are substantially reduced for more than a few weeks - even
>without panic and martial law factored in.
>
>On moving way out of town:  Sooner is better, because as the
>industrial economy crumbles everyone will get the same bright idea
>and that land ain't empty.  It's occupied by communities where it
>takes time to learn the human landscape and build trust
>relationships.  On arrival start working to establish oneself in
>an economic role that will continue to pay off in the form of
>mutual aid and bartering of labor and commodities, as the value of
>Federal Reserve Notes spirals down.
>
>As for cash money, I like silver way more than gold:  People will
>kill you much sooner for gold than silver, and the value of silver
>has been steadily rising due to industrial applications drawing
>down the world supply faster than mining is able to replace it.
>
>Another thing to think about is identifying technology that will
>stay relevant to the practical concerns of feeding and housing
>people in your local economy when international supply chains go
>sideways for months or years at a time.  Learn what is and isn't
>important by getting involved in the actual work, and get on top
>of how to run and fix that stuff, /then/ stockpile spare parts and
>replacements.
>
>In short, start building the world of 2100 today.  It's going to
>be built one way or another; early adopters will have more
>problems to solve and go down more blind alleys, but that's the
>price of coming out on top in the long run.
>
>:o)
>
>
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-- 
Sent from my Android device with K-9 Mail. Please excuse my brevity.
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From guninski at guninski.com  Mon Oct  5 04:52:28 2015
From: guninski at guninski.com (Georgi Guninski)
Date: Mon, 5 Oct 2015 14:52:28 +0300
Subject: Sometimes Putin is a little bit cruel.
In-Reply-To: <2890777.nSFVrcJOqd@lapuntu>
References: <CAOsGNSTpa39gk8ZMrMoHiAJfYRmML6SWukdnAExfcZzMH7WJ1g@mail.gmail.com>
 <2890777.nSFVrcJOqd@lapuntu>
Message-ID: <20151005115228.GB2489@sivokote.iziade.m$>

On Mon, Oct 05, 2015 at 11:26:02AM +0200, rysiek wrote:
> I wonder what would Putin say about the difference between Chechen "turhrists" 
> and Donbas "freedom fighters"...
>

Follow _official_ russian media and thou shalt know the _official_ truth
;)

btw, I heard sometimes russians countertroll ``weird deaths'' of
opponents with arguments along the line "how comes Kennedy and John
Lennon were killed?".




From guninski at guninski.com  Mon Oct  5 05:42:51 2015
From: guninski at guninski.com (Georgi Guninski)
Date: Mon, 5 Oct 2015 15:42:51 +0300
Subject: USA government debt ceiling
In-Reply-To: <CAOsGNSR9tXKM9+nPvJgT_7qESJPSJ9JuXWyeNFqBoPUCFEY3Bg@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAOsGNSSpW6H5POz=xF5NpNc6Xvie_XoTStKtgDnThrE5Ys9Uqw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAOsGNSR9tXKM9+nPvJgT_7qESJPSJ9JuXWyeNFqBoPUCFEY3Bg@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <20151005124251.GC2489@sivokote.iziade.m$>

On Mon, Oct 05, 2015 at 02:12:18AM +0000, Zenaan Harkness wrote:
> Just found this, which has a fair bit of more current info, for those
> interested:
> 
> http://english.pravda.ru/business/finance/02-10-2015/132222-usa_debt_bomb-0/

>From pravda.ru:

====
Now, the government in the USA owes $46 trillion,
US corporations owe $15 trillion, US individuals
owe $13 trillion plus there are $315 trillion in
outstanding wall street derivatives. (Few Americans
know what a derivative is, but we as a nation are
on the hook for up to $315 trillion in additional
debt because of these derivatives.) These debt
figures continue to escalate with each passing month
====

Haven't seen the debt about $315T on the interwebs,
possibly due to ignorance.

>From wikipedia which cites data from 2014 Q1

===
https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Financial_position_of_the_United_States&oldid=661507517
The financial position of the United States includes
assets of at least $269.6 trillion (1576% of GDP)
and debts of $145.8 trillion (852% of GDP) to produce
a net worth of at least $123.8 trillion (723% of GDP,)
[a] as of Q1 2014.
===


QUESTION:

Is there a citable reference for the debt of 
$315 treeeeelion?

I mean, if I troll americans about this and cite .ru
they almost surely will call me a commie.

I don't trust pravda.ru much, but lying about numbers
which can easily be disproved doesn't appear very
likely to me.




From juan.g71 at gmail.com  Mon Oct  5 12:04:42 2015
From: juan.g71 at gmail.com (Juan)
Date: Mon, 5 Oct 2015 16:04:42 -0300
Subject: juan's vision of free market WAS Snowden on the Twitters
In-Reply-To: <1630704.2mcmlWbHyF@lapuntu>
References: <20151004115158.GD2615@sivokote.iziade.m$>
 <56117804.755f8c0a.3616d.fffff75a@mx.google.com>
 <1630704.2mcmlWbHyF@lapuntu>
Message-ID: <5612c885.0738370a.dafb1.ffffa3e3@mx.google.com>

On Mon, 05 Oct 2015 11:33:45 +0200
rysiek <rysiek at hackerspace.pl> wrote:

> Dnia niedziela, 4 października 2015 16:08:55 Juan pisze:
> > On Sun, 4 Oct 2015 14:51:58 +0300
> > 
> > Georgi Guninski <guninski at guninski.com> wrote:
> > > >> 1. How do you distribute goods (food, shelter, shiny J-Pads,
> > > >> money? etc)
> > > >> 
> > > >        free market
> > > 
> > > What is a sound definition of free market?
> > 
> > 	Georgi, if you are really interested in the topic, do your
> > own homework.
> > 
> > 	http://jim.com/Molinari.htm
> 
> But you do realise that there are different views on what a "truly
> free market" is, right? 

	Wrong. 

	Did you even bother to skim the text I linked to? 



> Is it the one where is the least regulation?

	There's no 'regulation' in a free market. Your question shows
	that you don't what a free market is.


> Is that the one where the better offer always wins? 

	Better offer of what? A free market isn't defined by outcomes.

> These are not
> necessarily the same, as cartels and monopolies strive in a "free
> market without regulation".

	LMAO! Sure. Competition leads to monopoly and 'free' actually
	means regulated. 


> 
> So, which is it for you? Tell me, and *then* I can do my research.


	It's quite clear that you don't have a clue rysiek. FIRST you
	do your research about liberalism and THEN you try to come up
	with something that at least looks like criticism.


> 
> Being vague is a very good way to not go into a true discussion. If
> that's what you're after, good going. :)

	I wasn't vague at all. Check the literature I linked.

	But you're right about something. I don't want to waste time
	with people who only have knee-jerk reactions and dismiss 
	something they don't even know what it is.



> 
> > (...)
> > > In particular:
> > > 
> > > 1. How does the ``free market'' prevents _cartels_ and stays free?
> > > 2. In a stateless free market, what happens to orphans,
> > > physically/mentally impaired people and the like?
> > 
> > 	They are sold as cat and dog food for the pets of the rich
> > 	people.
> 
> Well, at least we're clear.


	We've been clear all the time. I know that you don't have a
	clue and only parrot establishment propaganda. 



> 
> > > IMHO realworld implementation of ``free market'' is the law of the
> > > jungle played with (virtual) money/goods on a Ponzi scheme
> > > playground (check the thread about the usa debt).
> > 
> > 	That is, you don't know what "free market" means and yet you
> > 	are wasting time discussing it and apparently trying to
> > refute something you don't have a clue about it.
> 
> So which version of the "free market" you propose? There are many.
> 

	Drop the bluffing rysiek. I know that you don't know
	what you're talking about.











From juan.g71 at gmail.com  Mon Oct  5 12:27:30 2015
From: juan.g71 at gmail.com (Juan)
Date: Mon, 5 Oct 2015 16:27:30 -0300
Subject: freedom and regulation
Message-ID: <5612cddc.44808c0a.100ba.ffffa1a6@mx.google.com>



	People interested in getting a better understanding on what a
	free market really is should take a look at this : 

	http://www.nytimes.com/2010/11/17/opinion/17buffett.html?_r=0




From juan.g71 at gmail.com  Mon Oct  5 12:37:47 2015
From: juan.g71 at gmail.com (Juan)
Date: Mon, 5 Oct 2015 16:37:47 -0300
Subject: How to minimize one's damage in case the usa kicks the bucket?
In-Reply-To: <20151005085119.GA2489@sivokote.iziade.m$>
References: <20151005085119.GA2489@sivokote.iziade.m$>
Message-ID: <5612d045.cfec8c0a.bb586.ffffa793@mx.google.com>

On Mon, 5 Oct 2015 11:51:19 +0300
Georgi Guninski <guninski at guninski.com> wrote:

> gold (is gold certificate secure enough?)

	gold 'certificates' issued by whom? Paper is the problem, not
	the solution.




From rysiek at hackerspace.pl  Mon Oct  5 08:50:08 2015
From: rysiek at hackerspace.pl (rysiek)
Date: Mon, 05 Oct 2015 17:50:08 +0200
Subject: Introduce randommess in keypress timings
Message-ID: <5322517.CKX7oq6BXK@lapuntu>

Hi all,

so, as we all know, Big Brothers tend to use keypress timings to identify 
users on the Net. This of course leads to a question: are there ways to 
introduce randomness in keypress timings?

I imagine a Linux kernel module that could be doing this, for instance. 
Anybody heard of anything like this?

There are things like All is Text:
https://addons.mozilla.org/pl/firefox/addon/its-all-text/

But this is not really a solution, rather a work-around (for instance it does 
not solve the problem for multiple browsers).

-- 
Pozdrawiam,
Michał "rysiek" Woźniak

Zmieniam klucz GPG :: http://rys.io/pl/147
GPG Key Transition :: http://rys.io/en/147
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From odinn.cyberguerrilla at riseup.net  Mon Oct  5 19:01:13 2015
From: odinn.cyberguerrilla at riseup.net (odinn)
Date: Tue, 06 Oct 2015 02:01:13 +0000
Subject: How to minimize one's damage in case the usa kicks the bucket?
In-Reply-To: <56125C89.2000304@pilobilus.net>
References: <20151005085119.GA2489@sivokote.iziade.m$>
 <CAOsGNSQ0mXaD_9DorvTG-ddyQiKtfEKpF1eKxYDgtXmAqV7t7g@mail.gmail.com>
 <56125C89.2000304@pilobilus.net>
Message-ID: <56132B69.5040507@riseup.net>

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA512

Hmm, well, since we are on this subject...

http://www.twitlonger.com/show/n_1sn3lqs

Steve Kinney:
> On 10/05/2015 05:43 AM, Zenaan Harkness wrote:
> 
> Good ideas in this thread so far.  What I would add is, get the F 
> away from population centers; they are very hungry machines that 
> will start to fail in very bad ways whenever any of their major 
> inputs are substantially reduced for more than a few weeks - even 
> without panic and martial law factored in.
> 
> On moving way out of town:  Sooner is better, because as the 
> industrial economy crumbles everyone will get the same bright idea 
> and that land ain't empty.  It's occupied by communities where it 
> takes time to learn the human landscape and build trust 
> relationships.  On arrival start working to establish oneself in an
> economic role that will continue to pay off in the form of mutual
> aid and bartering of labor and commodities, as the value of Federal
> Reserve Notes spirals down.
> 
> As for cash money, I like silver way more than gold:  People will 
> kill you much sooner for gold than silver, and the value of silver 
> has been steadily rising due to industrial applications drawing 
> down the world supply faster than mining is able to replace it.
> 
> Another thing to think about is identifying technology that will 
> stay relevant to the practical concerns of feeding and housing 
> people in your local economy when international supply chains go 
> sideways for months or years at a time.  Learn what is and isn't 
> important by getting involved in the actual work, and get on top of
> how to run and fix that stuff, /then/ stockpile spare parts and 
> replacements.
> 
> In short, start building the world of 2100 today.  It's going to be
> built one way or another; early adopters will have more problems to
> solve and go down more blind alleys, but that's the price of coming
> out on top in the long run.
> 
> :o)
> 
> 
> 

- -- 
http://abis.io ~
"a protocol concept to enable decentralization
and expansion of a giving economy, and a new social good"
https://keybase.io/odinn
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From zen at freedbms.net  Mon Oct  5 23:37:10 2015
From: zen at freedbms.net (Zenaan Harkness)
Date: Tue, 6 Oct 2015 06:37:10 +0000
Subject: How to minimize one's damage in case the usa kicks the bucket?
In-Reply-To: <20151006062653.GA2545@sivokote.iziade.m$>
References: <20151005085119.GA2489@sivokote.iziade.m$>
 <CAOsGNSQ0mXaD_9DorvTG-ddyQiKtfEKpF1eKxYDgtXmAqV7t7g@mail.gmail.com>
 <56125C89.2000304@pilobilus.net> <56132B69.5040507@riseup.net>
 <20151006062653.GA2545@sivokote.iziade.m$>
Message-ID: <CAOsGNSTHyBmYknKB9bQtDJPPccG-CrioNTHrZSEp=w_JMeWOtg@mail.gmail.com>

On 10/6/15, Georgi Guninski <guninski at guninski.com> wrote:
> On Tue, Oct 06, 2015 at 02:01:13AM +0000, odinn wrote:
>> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
>> Hash: SHA512
>>
>> Hmm, well, since we are on this subject...
>>
>> http://www.twitlonger.com/show/n_1sn3lqs
>>
>
> Interesting reading.
>
> Are there marketing indications something is coming soon? Currency
> options, gold, silver?
>
> Switzerland central bank's rate is _negative_ AFAICT.

I sure wish *I* could borrow $100million and have them pay me interest
for the privilege of having lent me money.

Who -gets- these rates? Just other banks I presume...




From tbiehn at gmail.com  Tue Oct  6 05:55:58 2015
From: tbiehn at gmail.com (Travis Biehn)
Date: Tue, 6 Oct 2015 08:55:58 -0400
Subject: Introduce randommess in keypress timings
In-Reply-To: <2324547.EHap60RUio@lapuntu>
References: <5322517.CKX7oq6BXK@lapuntu>
 <CAKtE3zcPcjSmgrPcvZ+t1xA7OpZiNrrRyJ7FSdJgWNQX5dmpwg@mail.gmail.com>
 <2324547.EHap60RUio@lapuntu>
Message-ID: <CAKtE3zeK7vhY+5+GTMvqyw9pHWCWQdRjGqoYnOqULYzJ_SBwdw@mail.gmail.com>

It's sort of like voice biometrics - two people can share the same 'feature
set' but you and your attacker (the person who has your banking password)
are 'unlikely' to.

It's not useful for positive identification by itself, out of that large
database there would be many collisions.

The content of text that you type, the words you use and your grammatical
structure contain more identifying bits.

-Travis


On Tue, Oct 6, 2015 at 8:03 AM, rysiek <rysiek at hackerspace.pl> wrote:

> Dnia poniedziałek, 5 października 2015 12:26:17 piszesz:
> > Rysiek,
> > https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Keystroke_dynamics
> >
> > We may first want to understand the minimum resolution that timing
> > requires. Keypress events can be randomized within this interval.
> >
> > Another track:
> > 170WPM ~= 42000 KPH ~= 11 KPS
> >
> > So, maybe we have 90ms delay on average between keystrokes for a speed
> > typist.
>
> Right.
>
> > I didn't realize you could use keystroke analysis to identify one person
> > out of a pool of millions, rather, that a certain keystroke pattern
> matches
> > as best a certain subset of users but it wouldn't be valuable/practical
> for
> > positive identification. Text analysis is probably a way more useful
> signal.
> >
> > In for more details,
>
> https://paul.reviews/behavioral-profiling-the-password-you-cant-change/
> http://www.behaviosec.com/technology/demos/
>
> I am still trying to wrap my head around it.
>
> --
> Pozdrawiam,
> Michał "rysiek" Woźniak
>
> Zmieniam klucz GPG :: http://rys.io/pl/147
> GPG Key Transition :: http://rys.io/en/147
>



-- 
Twitter <https://twitter.com/tbiehn> | LinkedIn
<http://www.linkedin.com/in/travisbiehn> | GitHub <http://github.com/tbiehn>
| TravisBiehn.com <http://www.travisbiehn.com> | Google Plus
<https://plus.google.com/+TravisBiehn>
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From guninski at guninski.com  Mon Oct  5 23:26:53 2015
From: guninski at guninski.com (Georgi Guninski)
Date: Tue, 6 Oct 2015 09:26:53 +0300
Subject: How to minimize one's damage in case the usa kicks the bucket?
In-Reply-To: <56132B69.5040507@riseup.net>
References: <20151005085119.GA2489@sivokote.iziade.m$>
 <CAOsGNSQ0mXaD_9DorvTG-ddyQiKtfEKpF1eKxYDgtXmAqV7t7g@mail.gmail.com>
 <56125C89.2000304@pilobilus.net> <56132B69.5040507@riseup.net>
Message-ID: <20151006062653.GA2545@sivokote.iziade.m$>

On Tue, Oct 06, 2015 at 02:01:13AM +0000, odinn wrote:
> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
> Hash: SHA512
> 
> Hmm, well, since we are on this subject...
> 
> http://www.twitlonger.com/show/n_1sn3lqs
>

Interesting reading.

Are there marketing indications something is coming soon? Currency
options, gold, silver?

Switzerland central bank's rate is _negative_ AFAICT.




From rysiek at hackerspace.pl  Tue Oct  6 01:40:11 2015
From: rysiek at hackerspace.pl (rysiek)
Date: Tue, 06 Oct 2015 10:40:11 +0200
Subject: pass vs keyringer
Message-ID: <2062876.CK2eeTvlPF@lapuntu>

OHAI,

so, I came across these two:
https://keyringer.pw/
http://www.passwordstore.org/

They basically do the same (a GPG-encrypted, git-managed password/secret 
store), and I need to pick one and standardize. Anybody uses any of these? 
Pros? Cons?

From a comparison page:
https://wiki.koumbit.net/PasswordManagementService/SoftwareComparison#password-store

...it seems keyringer might be the winner, but I am probably missing 
something.

-- 
Pozdrawiam,
Michał "rysiek" Woźniak

Zmieniam klucz GPG :: http://rys.io/pl/147
GPG Key Transition :: http://rys.io/en/147
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From guninski at guninski.com  Tue Oct  6 00:44:12 2015
From: guninski at guninski.com (Georgi Guninski)
Date: Tue, 6 Oct 2015 10:44:12 +0300
Subject: Introduce randommess in keypress timings
In-Reply-To: <5322517.CKX7oq6BXK@lapuntu>
References: <5322517.CKX7oq6BXK@lapuntu>
Message-ID: <20151006074412.GB2545@sivokote.iziade.m$>

On Mon, Oct 05, 2015 at 05:50:08PM +0200, rysiek wrote:
> Hi all,
> 
> so, as we all know, Big Brothers tend to use keypress timings to identify 
> users on the Net. This of course leads to a question: are there ways to 
> introduce randomness in keypress timings?
>

Very partial mitigation might be to type the text in editor, select and
copy it and then paste or middle click. This likely will leak info about
your hardware and the fact you use it.

IIRC I read paper about analyzing the way users use their mice.
Probably this leaks more info about the user, not sure.





From natanael.l at gmail.com  Tue Oct  6 01:48:43 2015
From: natanael.l at gmail.com (Natanael)
Date: Tue, 6 Oct 2015 10:48:43 +0200
Subject: pass vs keyringer
In-Reply-To: <2062876.CK2eeTvlPF@lapuntu>
References: <2062876.CK2eeTvlPF@lapuntu>
Message-ID: <CAAt2M19aAxHtv1WCOmDS=wD9dzjZhh-eKLyJUfWu70RgD5pL4Q@mail.gmail.com>

Pass has an Android app:
https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=com.zeapo.pwdstore

On Tue, Oct 6, 2015 at 10:40 AM, rysiek <rysiek at hackerspace.pl> wrote:

> OHAI,
>
> so, I came across these two:
> https://keyringer.pw/
> http://www.passwordstore.org/
>
> They basically do the same (a GPG-encrypted, git-managed password/secret
> store), and I need to pick one and standardize. Anybody uses any of these?
> Pros? Cons?
>
> From a comparison page:
>
> https://wiki.koumbit.net/PasswordManagementService/SoftwareComparison#password-store
>
> ...it seems keyringer might be the winner, but I am probably missing
> something.
>
> --
> Pozdrawiam,
> Michał "rysiek" Woźniak
>
> Zmieniam klucz GPG :: http://rys.io/pl/147
> GPG Key Transition :: http://rys.io/en/147
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From rysiek at hackerspace.pl  Tue Oct  6 05:03:27 2015
From: rysiek at hackerspace.pl (rysiek)
Date: Tue, 06 Oct 2015 14:03:27 +0200
Subject: Introduce randommess in keypress timings
In-Reply-To: <CAKtE3zcPcjSmgrPcvZ+t1xA7OpZiNrrRyJ7FSdJgWNQX5dmpwg@mail.gmail.com>
References: <5322517.CKX7oq6BXK@lapuntu>
 <CAKtE3zcPcjSmgrPcvZ+t1xA7OpZiNrrRyJ7FSdJgWNQX5dmpwg@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <2324547.EHap60RUio@lapuntu>

Dnia poniedziałek, 5 października 2015 12:26:17 piszesz:
> Rysiek,
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Keystroke_dynamics
> 
> We may first want to understand the minimum resolution that timing
> requires. Keypress events can be randomized within this interval.
> 
> Another track:
> 170WPM ~= 42000 KPH ~= 11 KPS
> 
> So, maybe we have 90ms delay on average between keystrokes for a speed
> typist.

Right.

> I didn't realize you could use keystroke analysis to identify one person
> out of a pool of millions, rather, that a certain keystroke pattern matches
> as best a certain subset of users but it wouldn't be valuable/practical for
> positive identification. Text analysis is probably a way more useful signal.
> 
> In for more details,

https://paul.reviews/behavioral-profiling-the-password-you-cant-change/
http://www.behaviosec.com/technology/demos/

I am still trying to wrap my head around it.

-- 
Pozdrawiam,
Michał "rysiek" Woźniak

Zmieniam klucz GPG :: http://rys.io/pl/147
GPG Key Transition :: http://rys.io/en/147
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From rysiek at hackerspace.pl  Tue Oct  6 05:04:14 2015
From: rysiek at hackerspace.pl (rysiek)
Date: Tue, 06 Oct 2015 14:04:14 +0200
Subject: pass vs keyringer
In-Reply-To: <CAAt2M19aAxHtv1WCOmDS=wD9dzjZhh-eKLyJUfWu70RgD5pL4Q@mail.gmail.com>
References: <2062876.CK2eeTvlPF@lapuntu>
 <CAAt2M19aAxHtv1WCOmDS=wD9dzjZhh-eKLyJUfWu70RgD5pL4Q@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <3449408.T32QgKINsP@lapuntu>

Dnia wtorek, 6 października 2015 10:48:43 piszesz:
> Pass has an Android app:
> https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=com.zeapo.pwdstore

Right. Point for keyringer then, I guess. ;)

-- 
Pozdrawiam,
Michał "rysiek" Woźniak

Zmieniam klucz GPG :: http://rys.io/pl/147
GPG Key Transition :: http://rys.io/en/147
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From oshwm at openmailbox.org  Tue Oct  6 07:20:37 2015
From: oshwm at openmailbox.org (oshwm)
Date: Tue, 06 Oct 2015 15:20:37 +0100
Subject: Introduce randommess in keypress timings
In-Reply-To: <5613D35B.50106@hackerspace.pl>
References: <5322517.CKX7oq6BXK@lapuntu>
 <CAKtE3zcPcjSmgrPcvZ+t1xA7OpZiNrrRyJ7FSdJgWNQX5dmpwg@mail.gmail.com>
 <2324547.EHap60RUio@lapuntu>
 <CAKtE3zeK7vhY+5+GTMvqyw9pHWCWQdRjGqoYnOqULYzJ_SBwdw@mail.gmail.com>
 <5613D35B.50106@hackerspace.pl>
Message-ID: <5613D8B5.9020106@openmailbox.org>


On 06/10/15 14:57, Michał 'czesiek' Czyżewski wrote:
> On 10/06/2015 02:55 PM, Travis Biehn wrote:
>> It's sort of like voice biometrics - two people can share the same
>> 'feature set' but you and your attacker (the person who has your banking
>> password) are 'unlikely' to.
>>
>> It's not useful for positive identification by itself, out of that large
>> database there would be many collisions.
> True. But that's only one scenario in which such biometrics profiling
> could be used. I don't know of any bank that uses that, though. Anywhoo…
>
> Another worrying scenario is using keypress timings to profile netizens
> in addition to other ways of recognizing them (be it User-agent string,
> Adobe Flash player + system font list, HTML5 <canvas> element). I thing
> we should try to think of ways to mitigate this attack.
>
> Thoughts?
>

keypress timings?

I'd modify the keyboard firmware to collate keys and feed them to the
OpSys with random time intervals between each key.
This would create a constantly changing profile of your keyboard usage
and prevent pinning it down to any one particular user.

The reason I'd go for the keyboard firmware is because it *may* stand
less chance of being modified by an "interested third party" than the
OpSys or Browser.

In terms of word timing and grammar, that's likely impossible to
mitigate at keyboard firmware level due to the time that a user would be
willing to wait for feedback from their typing and lack of grammatical
awareness of the keyboard firmware :)


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From czesiek at hackerspace.pl  Tue Oct  6 06:57:47 2015
From: czesiek at hackerspace.pl (=?UTF-8?B?TWljaGHFgiAnY3plc2llaycgQ3p5xbxld3NraQ==?=)
Date: Tue, 06 Oct 2015 15:57:47 +0200
Subject: Introduce randommess in keypress timings
In-Reply-To: <CAKtE3zeK7vhY+5+GTMvqyw9pHWCWQdRjGqoYnOqULYzJ_SBwdw@mail.gmail.com>
References: <5322517.CKX7oq6BXK@lapuntu>
 <CAKtE3zcPcjSmgrPcvZ+t1xA7OpZiNrrRyJ7FSdJgWNQX5dmpwg@mail.gmail.com>
 <2324547.EHap60RUio@lapuntu>
 <CAKtE3zeK7vhY+5+GTMvqyw9pHWCWQdRjGqoYnOqULYzJ_SBwdw@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <5613D35B.50106@hackerspace.pl>

On 10/06/2015 02:55 PM, Travis Biehn wrote:
> It's sort of like voice biometrics - two people can share the same
> 'feature set' but you and your attacker (the person who has your banking
> password) are 'unlikely' to.
> 
> It's not useful for positive identification by itself, out of that large
> database there would be many collisions.

True. But that's only one scenario in which such biometrics profiling
could be used. I don't know of any bank that uses that, though. Anywhoo…

Another worrying scenario is using keypress timings to profile netizens
in addition to other ways of recognizing them (be it User-agent string,
Adobe Flash player + system font list, HTML5 <canvas> element). I thing
we should try to think of ways to mitigate this attack.

Thoughts?

-- 
czesiek

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From czesiek at hackerspace.pl  Tue Oct  6 07:04:28 2015
From: czesiek at hackerspace.pl (=?UTF-8?B?TWljaGHFgiAnY3plc2llaycgQ3p5xbxld3NraQ==?=)
Date: Tue, 06 Oct 2015 16:04:28 +0200
Subject: Introduce randommess in keypress timings
In-Reply-To: <20151006074412.GB2545@sivokote.iziade.m$>
References: <5322517.CKX7oq6BXK@lapuntu>
 <20151006074412.GB2545@sivokote.iziade.m$>
Message-ID: <5613D4EC.4010806@hackerspace.pl>

On 10/06/2015 09:44 AM, Georgi Guninski wrote:
> Very partial mitigation might be to type the text in editor, select and
> copy it and then paste or middle click.

There are browser extensions that do that, although they probably were
meant solve another problem (ie. let's use my fav text editor to write
this long piece in a form). rysiek was linking to:
  https://addons.mozilla.org/pl/firefox/addon/its-all-text/
(also "set editor=…" setting in ~/.vimperatorrc)

> This likely will leak info about your hardware

How so?

> IIRC I read paper about analyzing the way users use their mice.
> Probably this leaks more info about the user, not sure.

Vimprator is king, I agree. Unfortunately not a viable option for many.

-- 
czesiek

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From guninski at guninski.com  Tue Oct  6 06:27:52 2015
From: guninski at guninski.com (Georgi Guninski)
Date: Tue, 6 Oct 2015 16:27:52 +0300
Subject: Introduce randommess in keypress timings
In-Reply-To: <CAKtE3zeK7vhY+5+GTMvqyw9pHWCWQdRjGqoYnOqULYzJ_SBwdw@mail.gmail.com>
References: <5322517.CKX7oq6BXK@lapuntu>
 <CAKtE3zcPcjSmgrPcvZ+t1xA7OpZiNrrRyJ7FSdJgWNQX5dmpwg@mail.gmail.com>
 <2324547.EHap60RUio@lapuntu>
 <CAKtE3zeK7vhY+5+GTMvqyw9pHWCWQdRjGqoYnOqULYzJ_SBwdw@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <20151006132752.GC2545@sivokote.iziade.m$>

On Tue, Oct 06, 2015 at 08:55:58AM -0400, Travis Biehn wrote:
> It's sort of like voice biometrics - two people can share the same 'feature
> set' but you and your attacker (the person who has your banking password)
> are 'unlikely' to.
> 
> It's not useful for positive identification by itself, out of that large
> database there would be many collisions.
> 
> The content of text that you type, the words you use and your grammatical
> structure contain more identifying bits.
>

Agreed. This might deserve another thread, but is there "English
obfuscation for dummies for non-native speakers/writers?"

In my native language I suspect can spoof at least one dialect, but in
English I am pretty sure I make linkable to me Tpelling/Arammar
mistakes.

Possible solution might be using relatively small set of words and some
Normal Form, but this shows you are using it.




From nelson_mikel at yahoo.com  Tue Oct  6 13:15:39 2015
From: nelson_mikel at yahoo.com (Michael Nelson)
Date: Tue, 6 Oct 2015 20:15:39 +0000 (UTC)
Subject: Introduce randommess in keypress timings
Message-ID: <1343496924.1220914.1444162539833.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com>

Alternatively all keystrokes could be done with fixed timing.  The point is that no individual pattern should be discernable.  There are more subtle aspects, such as jitter from perfectly regular timing, which could identify the machine/browser being used.  With added randomness, such jitter would be harder to discern.  Also, you would ideally not want eavesdroppers to know that you are obfuscating your keystrokes, and obfuscating via randomness, as opposed to fixed timing, would help with that.

There are quite a few companies selling keystroke dynamics products as an authentication factor.  There are also various efforts, such as one started at Stanford a few years ago, to monitor all aspects of a person's input, for continuous background authentication.  Not sure how that one's going.  Keystroke dynamics normally works on a short chosen phrase.  The latter stuff is more ambitious and extends that to arbitrarily long text, along with grammatical patterns, etc.  There is nothing new here.


After evaluating several products for a company I worked for, I built a keystroke dynamics product myself -- it was less work than going through the pain of registering for a trial of their software!  It was never used, for the same reason that kd is not used much -- it's more trouble than it's worth. It worked as well as any of the products being sold.

Though a key down or key up event from the Windows operating system has a timestamp in it (the OS will not give you more than a certain accuracy, but it's adequate), that timestamp is discarded and not available in Javascript.  My Javascript solution calls for a new Date as soon as it captures a key event.  People selling this stuff say that as there is too much potential lag between the key event and the time thus associated, Javascript is not good.  The best thing is something like an ActiveX  plugin or a native client in C that can capture the timestamp from the OS.  The next best thing was touted as Flash.  However, mine worked very well.

If anyone is interested I will describe in simple terms how one tests the keystroke vectors, and some of the challenges.

mn




From oshwm at openmailbox.org  Tue Oct  6 13:45:00 2015
From: oshwm at openmailbox.org (oshwm)
Date: Tue, 06 Oct 2015 21:45:00 +0100
Subject: Introduce randommess in keypress timings
In-Reply-To: <1343496924.1220914.1444162539833.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com>
References: <1343496924.1220914.1444162539833.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <561432CC.2070304@openmailbox.org>



On 06/10/15 21:15, Michael Nelson wrote:
> Alternatively all keystrokes could be done with fixed timing.  The point is that no individual pattern should be discernable.  There are more subtle aspects, such as jitter from perfectly regular timing, which could identify the machine/browser being used.  With added randomness, such jitter would be harder to discern.  Also, you would ideally not want eavesdroppers to know that you are obfuscating your keystrokes, and obfuscating via randomness, as opposed to fixed timing, would help with that.

My first thoughts were to use fixed timing but quickly realised that for
fixed timing to work, EVERYONE using a keyboard/mouse would have to have
their firmware modified otherwise your fixed timing would identify you
just as surely as your genuine timing patterns.
The randomness will also make each user appear as many different users -
not just hiding existing users but giving the impression that there are
many more users out there than truly exist (increasing the size of the
haystack).

> There are quite a few companies selling keystroke dynamics products as an authentication factor.  There are also various efforts, such as one started at Stanford a few years ago, to monitor all aspects of a person's input, for continuous background authentication.  Not sure how that one's going.  Keystroke dynamics normally works on a short chosen phrase.  The latter stuff is more ambitious and extends that to arbitrarily long text, along with grammatical patterns, etc.  There is nothing new here.
>
>
> After evaluating several products for a company I worked for, I built a keystroke dynamics product myself -- it was less work than going through the pain of registering for a trial of their software!  It was never used, for the same reason that kd is not used much -- it's more trouble than it's worth. It worked as well as any of the products being sold.
>
> Though a key down or key up event from the Windows operating system has a timestamp in it (the OS will not give you more than a certain accuracy, but it's adequate), that timestamp is discarded and not available in Javascript.  My Javascript solution calls for a new Date as soon as it captures a key event.  People selling this stuff say that as there is too much potential lag between the key event and the time thus associated, Javascript is not good.  The best thing is something like an ActiveX  plugin or a native client in C that can capture the timestamp from the OS.  The next best thing was touted as Flash.  However, mine worked very well.

This is exactly why modifying the firmware would be better than running
software either within the OpSys or on top of it - by the time your
software gets a look at the keystroke timing then another 'driver' etc
could already have seen it.
It is surprising to know that Javascript is fast enough not to have an
impact on system performance when monitoring the keystroke timing!

> If anyone is interested I will describe in simple terms how one tests the keystroke vectors, and some of the challenges.

Would be interesting to read this as there are probably many things I
hadn't even considered, thanks :)

> mn


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From rysiek at hackerspace.pl  Tue Oct  6 15:19:58 2015
From: rysiek at hackerspace.pl (rysiek)
Date: Wed, 07 Oct 2015 00:19:58 +0200
Subject: Sometimes Putin is a little bit cruel.
In-Reply-To: <5612B303.5000102@riseup.net>
References: <CAOsGNSTpa39gk8ZMrMoHiAJfYRmML6SWukdnAExfcZzMH7WJ1g@mail.gmail.com>
 <2890777.nSFVrcJOqd@lapuntu> <5612B303.5000102@riseup.net>
Message-ID: <1835493.Xaqpm3Rnrn@lapuntu>

Dnia poniedziałek, 5 października 2015 10:27:31 Razer pisze:
> On 10/05/2015 02:26 AM, rysiek wrote:
> > I wonder what would Putin say about the difference between Chechen
> > "turhrists" and Donbas "freedom fighters"...
> 
> I know what Porter Goss would say about the Chechens:
> > “I can tell you that there is a role in my mind, a proper role, for
> > covert action to continue. And I would not call it ‘paramilitary’. I
> > would call it ‘pure covert action’. And that would be things happening
> > to the benefit of national security that just seem to happen. And
> > there is not an American flag on them. And if somebody came to the
> > President of the United States, he would be able to say, ‘I don’t know
> > what you’re talking about.’”
> 
> ~Porter Goss, former director of the CIA, Ship of Spies, BBC Radio 4, 15
> January 2011
> 
> http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b00xgqx9
> 
> In case you’re wondering WHY so many Chechens are in the United States...
> 
> Tagged: #DirtyWars

That works great both ways, doesn't it? If we want to go down that path, why 
are we only looking for CIA where there's action against Russia? Why aren't 
wee looking for FSB where there is action against the US?

Not saying any of these (CIA in Chechnya, FSB in Iraq or Afghanistan, etc) is 
true -- or not. But at least we can try to use the same measure in both cases. 
;)

-- 
Pozdrawiam,
Michał "rysiek" Woźniak

Zmieniam klucz GPG :: http://rys.io/pl/147
GPG Key Transition :: http://rys.io/en/147
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From rysiek at hackerspace.pl  Tue Oct  6 15:22:22 2015
From: rysiek at hackerspace.pl (rysiek)
Date: Wed, 07 Oct 2015 00:22:22 +0200
Subject: USA government debt ceiling
In-Reply-To: <20151005124251.GC2489@sivokote.iziade.m$>
References: <CAOsGNSSpW6H5POz=xF5NpNc6Xvie_XoTStKtgDnThrE5Ys9Uqw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAOsGNSR9tXKM9+nPvJgT_7qESJPSJ9JuXWyeNFqBoPUCFEY3Bg@mail.gmail.com>
 <20151005124251.GC2489@sivokote.iziade.m$>
Message-ID: <1828542.d4Rc9OflU8@lapuntu>

Dnia poniedziałek, 5 października 2015 15:42:51 Georgi Guninski pisze:
> I don't trust pravda.ru much, but lying about numbers
> which can easily be disproved doesn't appear very
> likely to me.

Well... ;)

-- 
Pozdrawiam,
Michał "rysiek" Woźniak

Zmieniam klucz GPG :: http://rys.io/pl/147
GPG Key Transition :: http://rys.io/en/147
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From rysiek at hackerspace.pl  Tue Oct  6 15:25:23 2015
From: rysiek at hackerspace.pl (rysiek)
Date: Wed, 07 Oct 2015 00:25:23 +0200
Subject: Snowden on the Twitters
In-Reply-To: <5612AF22.2010703@riseup.net>
References: <CAD2Ti2-ZiZDAR_mLFAQqcgLVyyvrv2o2Kx3ri+jBK3o7aUF6QA@mail.gmail.com>
 <4586955.ql64S1qWNN@lapuntu> <5612AF22.2010703@riseup.net>
Message-ID: <3482718.N20uJfZFAk@lapuntu>

Dnia poniedziałek, 5 października 2015 10:10:58 Razer pisze:
> On 10/05/2015 03:06 AM, rysiek wrote:
> >> The middleman exists to see to it that the exchange is NOT entirely
> >> 
> >> > voluntary, and I'm back to that bloody fantasy about Marketers and
> >> > sales
> >> > engineers...
> > 
> > Are you saying that if the exchange happens *without* money, it
> > necessarily
> > happens *without* middlemen?
> > Are you saying that if the exchange happens *with* money, it necessarily
> > happens *with* middlemen?
> > 
> > Are you saying that if the exchange happens *with* money, it necessarily
> > *is not* entirely voluntary?
> > Are you saying that if the exchange happens *without* money, it
> > necessarily
> > *is* entirely voluntary?
> 
> I said: "The middleman exists to see to it that the exchange is NOT entirely
> voluntary..." (which, for a start, is why they hire or 'tempt into service
> with future rewards from the proceeds of their position in the middle of
> the transaction' armies of people with the biggest weapons)
> 
> No to the first, and the rest. I made no claim whatsoever that the medium of
> exchanges' form matters, and if you want an answer to the question YOU
> raised I do not believe the form matters.

But then, I don't really understand. Help me out here. Where, then, are the 
middlemen? How does your "Anarchist Economics 101" remove them?

-- 
Pozdrawiam,
Michał "rysiek" Woźniak

Zmieniam klucz GPG :: http://rys.io/pl/147
GPG Key Transition :: http://rys.io/en/147
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From rysiek at hackerspace.pl  Tue Oct  6 15:26:48 2015
From: rysiek at hackerspace.pl (rysiek)
Date: Wed, 07 Oct 2015 00:26:48 +0200
Subject: juan's vision of free market WAS Snowden on the Twitters
In-Reply-To: <5612B19B.3000205@riseup.net>
References: <20151004115158.GD2615@sivokote.iziade.m$>
 <1630704.2mcmlWbHyF@lapuntu> <5612B19B.3000205@riseup.net>
Message-ID: <1632779.EOsjtuZs0x@lapuntu>

Dnia poniedziałek, 5 października 2015 10:21:31 Razer pisze:
> On 10/05/2015 02:33 AM, rysiek wrote:
> > But you do realise that there are different views on what a "truly
> > free market" is, right? Is it the one where is the least regulation?
> > Is that the one where the better offer always wins? These are not
> > necessarily the same, as cartels and monopolies strive in a "free
> > market without regulation".
> 
> State monopoly or private is of no significance. Monopolies don't exist
> in free markets. They exist in CORNERED markets which typically occur
> because someone played with a loophole in the REGULATIONS of that
> market, giving them an advantage, and allowing them to corner it.
> 
> Ask the Hunt boys how that worked out for them in Silver...

Ah, so the assumption is: "had there been no regulation, we would not get 
monopolies"?

Am I getting that right?

-- 
Pozdrawiam,
Michał "rysiek" Woźniak

Zmieniam klucz GPG :: http://rys.io/pl/147
GPG Key Transition :: http://rys.io/en/147
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From grarpamp at gmail.com  Tue Oct  6 23:13:17 2015
From: grarpamp at gmail.com (grarpamp)
Date: Wed, 7 Oct 2015 02:13:17 -0400
Subject: Cyber Guerrilla Warfare, OPSEC, etc... [re: kicks bucket]
Message-ID: <CAD2Ti2_Z59aLCgV9mNSZGtbTnvN=ZXqToXQFcUwVdtPvyhJQ=A@mail.gmail.com>

On Mon, Oct 5, 2015 at 4:51 AM, Georgi Guninski <guninski at guninski.com> wrote:
> The ... situation ... is quite grave.
> Assume very severe ... crisis hits ... relatively soon causing ...

"State Kicks the bucket" (and other use cases) bring about some
discussion around cyber guerrilla warfare of sorts...

Assume you're a terrist, warfighter, some flavor of activist /
dissident, human rights worker, journalist, hacker, VIP, whatever...

What is the time to a fix and physical intercept on your location?

Possibly specified to within some radius such that you cannot escape
without being captured, or at least being visually identified, etc.
Modulo your own movement while on / off air.
What are the capabilities of any particular chosen adversaries that
are after your realtime fix?
What is your loiter time before you must move to avoid capture?

Consider some various theatres, densities, infrastructures, and
situations in which you might operate...
- War ravaged mideast "city"
- Paris, New York, Tokyo
- You're in soverign territory up against drones and monitoring /
  locating methods that ignore and cross political boundaries.
- You're in soverign territory against local police forces.
- On foot or on wheels.
- Cameras everywhere, discretion kept how?
- Whether you strictly follow "never use the same place twice", or
not.
- Locating tech deployed directly by adversary vs. adversary utilizing
tech deployed by local utilities that serve the population.
- How to operate on limited resources against the "haves".

Land lines are out since you'd churn through safe lines, unless
you're tapping into them. Also wifi, cellular, satcom, pamphleting.

Some examples could be drawn from the "wars" in the mideast.
ie: You're spotted and fixed by undercover CIA agent, then droned
15 min later.

What are your goals as a cyber guerrilla or OPSEC oriented individual
or group in various tactical and strategic situations that you have
an affinity with? What are the greator goals?

What are the likely interest areas of a cyber guerrilla beyond
personal survival of water, food, shelter?

Do wide and local comms channels have trade value? How to maintain
them?

Any any other things related to cyber war, OPSEC type things
that keep you alive / valued when bucket is kicked, even if you're
sheeple....




From grarpamp at gmail.com  Tue Oct  6 23:18:10 2015
From: grarpamp at gmail.com (grarpamp)
Date: Wed, 7 Oct 2015 02:18:10 -0400
Subject: Cyber Guerrilla Warfare, OPSEC, etc... [re: kicks bucket]
In-Reply-To: <CAD2Ti2_Z59aLCgV9mNSZGtbTnvN=ZXqToXQFcUwVdtPvyhJQ=A@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAD2Ti2_Z59aLCgV9mNSZGtbTnvN=ZXqToXQFcUwVdtPvyhJQ=A@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAD2Ti29KavrDtq1obUOV38Gybq70ie-f0zLuTbjuUMDSa_WjLg@mail.gmail.com>

> Any any other things related to cyber war, OPSEC type things

Do the comms hubs, fiber huts and towers get destroyed,
commandeered, etc. If at all? By which side? Why?




From oshwm at openmailbox.org  Tue Oct  6 23:29:28 2015
From: oshwm at openmailbox.org (oshwm)
Date: Wed, 07 Oct 2015 07:29:28 +0100
Subject: Introduce randommess in keypress timings
In-Reply-To: <20151007053710.GA2657@sivokote.iziade.m$>
References: <1343496924.1220914.1444162539833.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com>
 <561432CC.2070304@openmailbox.org> <20151007053710.GA2657@sivokote.iziade.m$>
Message-ID: <5614BBC8.3090204@openmailbox.org>



On 07/10/15 06:37, Georgi Guninski wrote:
> On Tue, Oct 06, 2015 at 09:45:00PM +0100, oshwm wrote:
>> The randomness will also make each user appear as many different users -
>> not just hiding existing users but giving the impression that there are
>> many more users out there than truly exist (increasing the size of the
>> haystack).
>>
> Are you sure adding randomness is undetectable?
>
> I would expect for pure physical reasons there is some general pattern
> in the typing of humans - some key pairs are faster, others are slower
> depending on the layout of keys.
>
>
In which case you'd need access to a lot of studies on these kinds of
things in order to create more human timing with a degree of randomness.
Hence why I said to MN that I'd welcome more detail on how the
monitoring/attacks work so that I could change from my current
simplified view of the issue to a more sophisticated one :)
I guess you'd ideally have keyboard layout profiles for every locale so
that you could emulate multiple locations rather than tying the fake
user profile to a single country.


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From guninski at guninski.com  Tue Oct  6 22:37:10 2015
From: guninski at guninski.com (Georgi Guninski)
Date: Wed, 7 Oct 2015 08:37:10 +0300
Subject: Introduce randommess in keypress timings
In-Reply-To: <561432CC.2070304@openmailbox.org>
References: <1343496924.1220914.1444162539833.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com>
 <561432CC.2070304@openmailbox.org>
Message-ID: <20151007053710.GA2657@sivokote.iziade.m$>

On Tue, Oct 06, 2015 at 09:45:00PM +0100, oshwm wrote:
> The randomness will also make each user appear as many different users -
> not just hiding existing users but giving the impression that there are
> many more users out there than truly exist (increasing the size of the
> haystack).
>

Are you sure adding randomness is undetectable?

I would expect for pure physical reasons there is some general pattern
in the typing of humans - some key pairs are faster, others are slower
depending on the layout of keys.





From oshwm at openmailbox.org  Wed Oct  7 00:59:56 2015
From: oshwm at openmailbox.org (oshwm)
Date: Wed, 07 Oct 2015 08:59:56 +0100
Subject: Introduce randommess in keypress timings
In-Reply-To: <20151007070846.GB2657@sivokote.iziade.m$>
References: <1343496924.1220914.1444162539833.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com>
 <561432CC.2070304@openmailbox.org> <20151007053710.GA2657@sivokote.iziade.m$>
 <5614BBC8.3090204@openmailbox.org> <20151007070846.GB2657@sivokote.iziade.m$>
Message-ID: <5614D0FC.1070507@openmailbox.org>



On 07/10/15 08:08, Georgi Guninski wrote:
> On Wed, Oct 07, 2015 at 07:29:28AM +0100, oshwm wrote:
>> In which case you'd need access to a lot of studies on these kinds of
>> things in order to create more human timing with a degree of randomness.
>> Hence why I said to MN that I'd welcome more detail on how the
>> monitoring/attacks work so that I could change from my current
>> simplified view of the issue to a more sophisticated one :)
>> I guess you'd ideally have keyboard layout profiles for every locale so
>> that you could emulate multiple locations rather than tying the fake
>> user profile to a single country.
>>
>>
> This might greatly decrease your score on fast keyboard navigated
> javascript game, say claiming to be capture ;)

Surely we are way too serious ppl for javascript games :D

> btw, in the subject is "mm" typo, joke or something else?
>
>

Ha ha, just noticed that, maybe we've been focusing on the wrong issue :D



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From Rayzer at riseup.net  Wed Oct  7 09:53:09 2015
From: Rayzer at riseup.net (Razer)
Date: Wed, 7 Oct 2015 09:53:09 -0700
Subject: juan's vision of free market WAS Snowden on the Twitters
In-Reply-To: <1632779.EOsjtuZs0x@lapuntu>
References: <20151004115158.GD2615@sivokote.iziade.m$>
 <1630704.2mcmlWbHyF@lapuntu> <5612B19B.3000205@riseup.net>
 <1632779.EOsjtuZs0x@lapuntu>
Message-ID: <56154DF5.90207@riseup.net>



On 10/06/2015 03:26 PM, rysiek wrote:
> Dnia poniedziałek, 5 października 2015 10:21:31 Razer pisze:
>> On 10/05/2015 02:33 AM, rysiek wrote:
>>> But you do realise that there are different views on what a "truly
>>> free market" is, right? Is it the one where is the least regulation?
>>> Is that the one where the better offer always wins? These are not
>>> necessarily the same, as cartels and monopolies strive in a "free
>>> market without regulation".
>> State monopoly or private is of no significance. Monopolies don't exist
>> in free markets. They exist in CORNERED markets which typically occur
>> because someone played with a loophole in the REGULATIONS of that
>> market, giving them an advantage, and allowing them to corner it.
>>
>> Ask the Hunt boys how that worked out for them in Silver...
> Ah, so the assumption is: "had there been no regulation, we would not get 
> monopolies"?
>
> Am I getting that right?
>

Without regulation you OWN your OWN 'monopoly' in whatever you
accumulate and so does everyone else.

The Hunts cornered the silver market in a REGULATED market, which, for
economic reasons better left to others to explain, cause the price of
silver to decline dramatically and then stabilize and stay at that level
for years .

In a free market they'd just be sitting on a bunch of silver they
couldn't sell and anyone else with silver would go on trading with
others on a more equilateral basis.

Of course I'm making the assumption that really free markets can only
exist in fully decentralized societies that would eschew centralized
trading AND the middlemen necessary for it's operation.


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From Rayzer at riseup.net  Wed Oct  7 09:59:39 2015
From: Rayzer at riseup.net (Razer)
Date: Wed, 7 Oct 2015 09:59:39 -0700
Subject: Snowden on the Twitters
In-Reply-To: <3482718.N20uJfZFAk@lapuntu>
References: <CAD2Ti2-ZiZDAR_mLFAQqcgLVyyvrv2o2Kx3ri+jBK3o7aUF6QA@mail.gmail.com>
 <4586955.ql64S1qWNN@lapuntu> <5612AF22.2010703@riseup.net>
 <3482718.N20uJfZFAk@lapuntu>
Message-ID: <56154F7B.4030805@riseup.net>



On 10/06/2015 03:25 PM, rysiek wrote:


See my just posted response to "Juan's Vision". The middleman OPERATES A
CENTRALIZED MARKET they expect others to participate in. "Anarchist
Economics 101" doesn't remove them. It points to the fact we don't NEED
them. People that want to profit over other people need them, but
individuals do not have to cooperate ... until the middlemen conspire
with 'People that want to profit over other people" to hire people with
guns to enforce their markets.


> Dnia poniedziałek, 5 października 2015 10:10:58 Razer pisze:
>> On 10/05/2015 03:06 AM, rysiek wrote:
>>>> The middleman exists to see to it that the exchange is NOT entirely
>>>>
>>>>> voluntary, and I'm back to that bloody fantasy about Marketers and
>>>>> sales
>>>>> engineers...
>>> Are you saying that if the exchange happens *without* money, it
>>> necessarily
>>> happens *without* middlemen?
>>> Are you saying that if the exchange happens *with* money, it necessarily
>>> happens *with* middlemen?
>>>
>>> Are you saying that if the exchange happens *with* money, it necessarily
>>> *is not* entirely voluntary?
>>> Are you saying that if the exchange happens *without* money, it
>>> necessarily
>>> *is* entirely voluntary?
>> I said: "The middleman exists to see to it that the exchange is NOT entirely
>> voluntary..." (which, for a start, is why they hire or 'tempt into service
>> with future rewards from the proceeds of their position in the middle of
>> the transaction' armies of people with the biggest weapons)
>>
>> No to the first, and the rest. I made no claim whatsoever that the medium of
>> exchanges' form matters, and if you want an answer to the question YOU
>> raised I do not believe the form matters.

But then, I don't really understand. Help me out here. Where, then, are the 
middlemen? How does your remove them?



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From guninski at guninski.com  Wed Oct  7 00:08:46 2015
From: guninski at guninski.com (Georgi Guninski)
Date: Wed, 7 Oct 2015 10:08:46 +0300
Subject: Introduce randommess in keypress timings
In-Reply-To: <5614BBC8.3090204@openmailbox.org>
References: <1343496924.1220914.1444162539833.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com>
 <561432CC.2070304@openmailbox.org>
 <20151007053710.GA2657@sivokote.iziade.m$>
 <5614BBC8.3090204@openmailbox.org>
Message-ID: <20151007070846.GB2657@sivokote.iziade.m$>

On Wed, Oct 07, 2015 at 07:29:28AM +0100, oshwm wrote:
> In which case you'd need access to a lot of studies on these kinds of
> things in order to create more human timing with a degree of randomness.
> Hence why I said to MN that I'd welcome more detail on how the
> monitoring/attacks work so that I could change from my current
> simplified view of the issue to a more sophisticated one :)
> I guess you'd ideally have keyboard layout profiles for every locale so
> that you could emulate multiple locations rather than tying the fake
> user profile to a single country.
> 
> 

This might greatly decrease your score on fast keyboard navigated
javascript game, say claiming to be capture ;)

btw, in the subject is "mm" typo, joke or something else?





From drwho at virtadpt.net  Wed Oct  7 10:37:50 2015
From: drwho at virtadpt.net (The Doctor)
Date: Wed, 7 Oct 2015 10:37:50 -0700
Subject: Cyber Guerrilla Warfare, OPSEC, etc... [re: kicks bucket]
In-Reply-To: <CAD2Ti2_Z59aLCgV9mNSZGtbTnvN=ZXqToXQFcUwVdtPvyhJQ=A@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAD2Ti2_Z59aLCgV9mNSZGtbTnvN=ZXqToXQFcUwVdtPvyhJQ=A@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <20151007103750.ea3de5d526f31ed3ed960931@virtadpt.net>

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA512

On Wed, 7 Oct 2015 02:13:17 -0400
grarpamp <grarpamp at gmail.com> wrote:

> What is the time to a fix and physical intercept on your location?

The Oakland Privacy Working Group has been doing a lot of work insofar as STINGRAY/HAILSTORM/whatever next generation cellular device position tracking hardware is concerned.  They would probably have some ideas on time-to-physical lock.  It is relatively to suss out the vehicles that are so equipped based upon the antennae magmounted on the roofs or the trunk lids.

> Modulo your own movement while on / off air.

Are you factoring street viewing securicams and shotspotter recording devices in?

http://sanfrancisco.cbslocal.com/2014/05/21/shooting-crime-privacy-tech-oaklands-shotspotter-equipment-records-voice-conversations/

http://www.businessinsider.com/the-nypds-newest-technology-may-be-recording-conversations-2015-3

> What are the capabilities of any particular chosen adversaries that
> are after your realtime fix?

The eternal question.

> What is your loiter time before you must move to avoid capture?

How would one abscond while drawing a minimum of attention to oneself?

> - You're in soverign territory up against drones and monitoring /
>   locating methods that ignore and cross political boundaries.

Would the drones be operating at an altitude at which they could reasonably be taken out?

> - Cameras everywhere, discretion kept how?

The manner in which Mahmoud Al-Mabhouh is fairly well documented, and illuminating.

> - Locating tech deployed directly by adversary vs. adversary utilizing
> tech deployed by local utilities that serve the population.

Or local tech that has been subverted somehow.  I often wonder how wigle.net can be abused to track someone...

> Land lines are out since you'd churn through safe lines, unless

They are also becoming rare in some areas.

> What are your goals as a cyber guerrilla or OPSEC oriented individual
> or group in various tactical and strategic situations that you have
> an affinity with? What are the greator goals?

Does one /have/ any greater goals?

- -- 
The Doctor [412/724/301/703/415] [ZS]

PGP: 0x807B17C1 / 7960 1CDC 85C9 0B63 8D9F  DD89 3BD8 FF2B 807B 17C1
WWW: https://drwho.virtadpt.net/

"Wait Dan! I've got something on the radar."

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From Rayzer at riseup.net  Wed Oct  7 10:39:55 2015
From: Rayzer at riseup.net (Razer)
Date: Wed, 7 Oct 2015 10:39:55 -0700
Subject: Sometimes Putin is a little bit cruel.
In-Reply-To: <1835493.Xaqpm3Rnrn@lapuntu>
References: <CAOsGNSTpa39gk8ZMrMoHiAJfYRmML6SWukdnAExfcZzMH7WJ1g@mail.gmail.com>
 <2890777.nSFVrcJOqd@lapuntu> <5612B303.5000102@riseup.net>
 <1835493.Xaqpm3Rnrn@lapuntu>
Message-ID: <561558EB.6090504@riseup.net>



On 10/06/2015 03:19 PM, rysiek wrote:
> Not saying any of these (CIA in Chechnya, FSB in Iraq or Afghanistan, etc)

George Soros (for instance), NOT CIA. That's how you get true plausible
deniability.

The Russians have no person like that. They use their foreign policy
channels. Anyone as wealthy as Soros in Russia (if there is such a
person) is a Kleptocrat and generally want to destroy the Russian
government, not assist it.

Example of what Porter Goss meant:

Right now the US is making claims via the Daily Beast that the Russians
bombed a hospital in al-Nusra/ISIS HQ Idlib Syria.

The US government is making NO CLAIM AT ALL. They're leaving it to the
Western NGO backed hospital's staff and a guy whose CV is:

> "Oubai Shahbandar is a Syrian-American, former Department of Defense
> official, and currently serves as a Strategic Communications Advisor
> to the Syrian Coalition. With over seven years of experience working
> for the Department of Defense as a strategic analyst and foreign
> affairs specialist, Mr. Shahbandar has an extensive and diverse
> background in developing national security policy throughout the
> Middle East and South Asia. He served a one-year tour in Iraq from
> 2007 to 2008 during General Petraeus' surge as a strategic analyst
> supporting counterinsurgency operations and the U.S. military's
> outreach to the Sons of Iraq program."

You know what the "Sons of Iraq program" was rysiek?

It was the publicly announced US attempt in Iraq to get al-Qaeda
affiliated Sunnis to work as militias for the government, paid for by
the US. The 'paymasters' were a little slow so most of them, much like
the ISIS fighters in Idlib, of whom some most likely are those former
'sons', 'defected to al-Qaeda, and the guy mentioned above is a LONG
TERM "Handler" for those folks as propaganda intermediary for the
"Syrian Coalition", western governments, working for a PRIVATE NGO with
no direct affiliation anymore to the CIA or Pentagon.

RR

PS. George Soros is only 4 degrees separated from al-Qaeda.

He funds the "White Helmets" in Syria, the "Free Syrian Army's"
fighter(1) SAR team that OCCASIONALLY rescues a civilian. Those FSA
fighters defect to al-Nusra. 70 just did so and stated that was their
intent from the git (2). al-Nusra swears allegiance to ISIS (3), and
ISIS was formerly known as al-Qaeda in Iraq.(4)

All the above has happened without one US dollar going through
government channels (except the publicly known funding to train the
defecting fighters).

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From tbiehn at gmail.com  Wed Oct  7 07:59:38 2015
From: tbiehn at gmail.com (Travis Biehn)
Date: Wed, 7 Oct 2015 10:59:38 -0400
Subject: Introduce randommess in keypress timings
In-Reply-To: <56152A71.6000706@openmailbox.org>
References: <1343496924.1220914.1444162539833.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com>
 <561432CC.2070304@openmailbox.org> <20151007053710.GA2657@sivokote.iziade.m$>
 <5614BBC8.3090204@openmailbox.org> <20151007070846.GB2657@sivokote.iziade.m$>
 <5614D0FC.1070507@openmailbox.org> <20151007091209.GE2657@sivokote.iziade.m$>
 <CAKtE3zeFF-=iRLw4AHZZKhh3=Ky=yYKgob+7GZ18PU04Q5DpJQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <56152A71.6000706@openmailbox.org>
Message-ID: <CAKtE3zey=AntLQ4YRHEn0GJB2fmK9pbJVnW-ym9nvyGTyCgXJw@mail.gmail.com>

Lovely,
I'm interested in the insanity that would ensue from trying to get 'these
populations' to agree on priorities for development efforts.

-Travis

On Wed, Oct 7, 2015 at 10:21 AM, oshwm <oshwm at openmailbox.org> wrote:

>
>
> On 07/10/15 14:25, Travis Biehn wrote:
> > Normalizing / randomizing is fine. Anonymity sticks out, hasn't learned
> to
> > blend in.
> >
> > Keyboard timing is way down the list gentlemans. If you want to avoid it,
> > get drunk every time you use a webapp.
>
> Fair point, has anyone ever produced a peer agreed priority ordered list
> of privacy and anonymity threatening devices or software etc classified
> with either solved/not solved?
>
> It's a simple stupid question and I probably know the answer but is it
> something needed so that globally all activists/coders/etc can work
> through it?
>
>
>


-- 
Twitter <https://twitter.com/tbiehn> | LinkedIn
<http://www.linkedin.com/in/travisbiehn> | GitHub <http://github.com/tbiehn>
| TravisBiehn.com <http://www.travisbiehn.com> | Google Plus
<https://plus.google.com/+TravisBiehn>
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From guninski at guninski.com  Wed Oct  7 01:40:36 2015
From: guninski at guninski.com (Georgi Guninski)
Date: Wed, 7 Oct 2015 11:40:36 +0300
Subject: USA government debt ceiling
In-Reply-To: <1828542.d4Rc9OflU8@lapuntu>
References: <CAOsGNSSpW6H5POz=xF5NpNc6Xvie_XoTStKtgDnThrE5Ys9Uqw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAOsGNSR9tXKM9+nPvJgT_7qESJPSJ9JuXWyeNFqBoPUCFEY3Bg@mail.gmail.com>
 <20151005124251.GC2489@sivokote.iziade.m$>
 <1828542.d4Rc9OflU8@lapuntu>
Message-ID: <20151007084036.GC2657@sivokote.iziade.m$>

On Wed, Oct 07, 2015 at 12:22:22AM +0200, rysiek wrote:
> Dnia poniedziałek, 5 października 2015 15:42:51 Georgi Guninski pisze:
> > I don't trust pravda.ru much, but lying about numbers
> > which can easily be disproved doesn't appear very
> > likely to me.
> 
> Well... ;)
>

Again, pravda.ru might have lied about this.

But wikipedia is quite outdated on this topic, the permanent link is
from 9 May 2015:
https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Financial_position_of_the_United_States&oldid=661507517





From guninski at guninski.com  Wed Oct  7 01:47:39 2015
From: guninski at guninski.com (Georgi Guninski)
Date: Wed, 7 Oct 2015 11:47:39 +0300
Subject: How to minimize one's damage in case the usa kicks the bucket?
In-Reply-To: <CAOsGNSTHyBmYknKB9bQtDJPPccG-CrioNTHrZSEp=w_JMeWOtg@mail.gmail.com>
References: <20151005085119.GA2489@sivokote.iziade.m$>
 <CAOsGNSQ0mXaD_9DorvTG-ddyQiKtfEKpF1eKxYDgtXmAqV7t7g@mail.gmail.com>
 <56125C89.2000304@pilobilus.net> <56132B69.5040507@riseup.net>
 <20151006062653.GA2545@sivokote.iziade.m$>
 <CAOsGNSTHyBmYknKB9bQtDJPPccG-CrioNTHrZSEp=w_JMeWOtg@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <20151007084739.GD2657@sivokote.iziade.m$>

On Tue, Oct 06, 2015 at 06:37:10AM +0000, Zenaan Harkness wrote:
> > Switzerland central bank's rate is _negative_ AFAICT.
> 
> I sure wish *I* could borrow $100million and have them pay me interest
> for the privilege of having lent me money.
> 
> Who -gets- these rates? Just other banks I presume...

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Real_interest_rate#Negative_real_interest_rates
If there is a negative real interest rate, it means that the inflation
rate is greater than the nominal interest rate. If the Federal funds
rate is 2% and the inflation rate is 10%, then the borrower would gain
7.27% of every dollar borrowed per year.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/National_debt_of_the_United_States#Negative_real_interest_rates
Since 2010, the U.S. Treasury has been obtaining negative real interest
rates on government debt, meaning the inflation rate is greater than the
interest rate paid on the debt.[29]





From list at sysfu.com  Wed Oct  7 11:55:07 2015
From: list at sysfu.com (Seth)
Date: Wed, 07 Oct 2015 11:55:07 -0700
Subject: Snowden on the Twitters
In-Reply-To: <E1Zhbff-0001Ev-Jd@elasmtp-spurfowl.atl.sa.earthlink.net>
References: <CAD2Ti2-ZiZDAR_mLFAQqcgLVyyvrv2o2Kx3ri+jBK3o7aUF6QA@mail.gmail.com>
 <20150930062542.GA2618@sivokote.iziade.m$>
 <CD8AB160-F010-43C7-8A05-091C48DE043D@openmailbox.org>
 <20150930115346.GD2618@sivokote.iziade.m$> <560C3A26.4010709@openmailbox.org>
 <20151001053452.GA2752@sivokote.iziade.m$> <560CD686.8010501@openmailbox.org>
 <560ce15f.0212370a.97fe1.ffffa6e2@mx.google.com>
 <20151001080545.GC2752@sivokote.iziade.m$>
 <E1Zhbff-0001Ev-Jd@elasmtp-spurfowl.atl.sa.earthlink.net>
Message-ID: <op.x55fxsrvbgbjo9@mm.local>

On Thu, 01 Oct 2015 04:05:54 -0700, John Young <jya at pipeline.com> wrote:
> Even now the representatives of the government, NGOs ACLU, EFF, MSM
> and Freedom of the Press are negotiating a deal for Snowden for his  
> return
> to the US, following the Ellsberg precedent. The USG appears to be  
> willing
> to make a deal with all sides claiming victory "for the people." When  
> such
> deals are primarily beneficial to the secretkeepers and interpreters and
> judges of what the public is allowed to know while "protecting national
> security."

Speaking of Ellsberg, there's more to the man's backstory than most of you  
were probably aware of, listen to this fantastic interview with Douglas  
Valentine for the juicy bits. [1]

"Interview 709 – Douglas Valentine on Ellsberg and the CIA
Corbett • 07/17/2013

Today we’re joined once again by author and researcher Douglas Valentine  
of DouglasValentine.com to talk about his article “Will the Real Daniel  
Ellsberg Please Stand Up?” We discuss his little-known experience as a  
Pentagon observer to the CIA’s Revolutionary Development (RD) Program in  
South Vietnam from 1965 to 1967, the cast of disreputable CIA officers,  
drug runners and murderers that he was involved with there, and the  
accusation that the CIA ordered him to release the Pentagon Papers to take  
pressure off of investigations that were looking into the role of the  
agency in Vietnam at that time. We also explore why the establishment left  
refuses to examine this aspect of Ellsberg’s famed whistleblowing story."

[1]  
https://www.corbettreport.com/interview-709-douglas-valentine-on-ellsberg-and-the-cia/




From guninski at guninski.com  Wed Oct  7 02:12:09 2015
From: guninski at guninski.com (Georgi Guninski)
Date: Wed, 7 Oct 2015 12:12:09 +0300
Subject: Introduce randommess in keypress timings
In-Reply-To: <5614D0FC.1070507@openmailbox.org>
References: <1343496924.1220914.1444162539833.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com>
 <561432CC.2070304@openmailbox.org>
 <20151007053710.GA2657@sivokote.iziade.m$>
 <5614BBC8.3090204@openmailbox.org>
 <20151007070846.GB2657@sivokote.iziade.m$>
 <5614D0FC.1070507@openmailbox.org>
Message-ID: <20151007091209.GE2657@sivokote.iziade.m$>

On Wed, Oct 07, 2015 at 08:59:56AM +0100, oshwm wrote:
> > btw, in the subject is "mm" typo, joke or something else?
> >
> >
> 
> Ha ha, just noticed that, maybe we've been focusing on the wrong issue :D

Indeed, introducing RandomMess might border with steganography in some
implementations ;)




From tbiehn at gmail.com  Wed Oct  7 10:01:01 2015
From: tbiehn at gmail.com (Travis Biehn)
Date: Wed, 7 Oct 2015 13:01:01 -0400
Subject: Introduce randommess in keypress timings
In-Reply-To: <20151007155859.GG2657@sivokote.iziade.m$>
References: <1343496924.1220914.1444162539833.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com>
 <561432CC.2070304@openmailbox.org> <20151007053710.GA2657@sivokote.iziade.m$>
 <5614BBC8.3090204@openmailbox.org> <20151007070846.GB2657@sivokote.iziade.m$>
 <5614D0FC.1070507@openmailbox.org> <20151007091209.GE2657@sivokote.iziade.m$>
 <CAKtE3zeFF-=iRLw4AHZZKhh3=Ky=yYKgob+7GZ18PU04Q5DpJQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <20151007155859.GG2657@sivokote.iziade.m$>
Message-ID: <CAKtE3zc_m6O_CMb1Y+H6AxateKjU6N1v=-SkLiCpQ7bA+S-rnA@mail.gmail.com>

Is this a troll? Are you assuming I mean gentleman in a male centric
context (you filthy 'genderist' you)? Perhaps I reserve the honorific for
hermaphroditic crabs, and was only addressing them - as they make the best
developers of privacy software (evidently.)

-Travis

On Wed, Oct 7, 2015 at 11:58 AM, Georgi Guninski <guninski at guninski.com>
wrote:

> On Wed, Oct 07, 2015 at 01:25:35PM +0000, Travis Biehn wrote:
> > Normalizing / randomizing is fine. Anonymity sticks out, hasn't learned
> to
> > blend in.
> >
> > Keyboard timing is way down the list gentlemans. If you want to avoid it,
> > get drunk every time you use a webapp.
> >
>
> IMHO "gentlemans" may be offending/sexism to female ladies on this list
> (if any).
>
> "get drunk" may not work for japanese/chinese and possibly others who do
> not score on drinking well ;)
>



-- 
Twitter <https://twitter.com/tbiehn> | LinkedIn
<http://www.linkedin.com/in/travisbiehn> | GitHub <http://github.com/tbiehn>
| TravisBiehn.com <http://www.travisbiehn.com> | Google Plus
<https://plus.google.com/+TravisBiehn>
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From tbiehn at gmail.com  Wed Oct  7 06:25:35 2015
From: tbiehn at gmail.com (Travis Biehn)
Date: Wed, 07 Oct 2015 13:25:35 +0000
Subject: Introduce randommess in keypress timings
In-Reply-To: <20151007091209.GE2657@sivokote.iziade.m$>
References: <1343496924.1220914.1444162539833.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com>
 <561432CC.2070304@openmailbox.org> <20151007053710.GA2657@sivokote.iziade.m$>
 <5614BBC8.3090204@openmailbox.org> <20151007070846.GB2657@sivokote.iziade.m$>
 <5614D0FC.1070507@openmailbox.org> <20151007091209.GE2657@sivokote.iziade.m$>
Message-ID: <CAKtE3zeFF-=iRLw4AHZZKhh3=Ky=yYKgob+7GZ18PU04Q5DpJQ@mail.gmail.com>

Normalizing / randomizing is fine. Anonymity sticks out, hasn't learned to
blend in.

Keyboard timing is way down the list gentlemans. If you want to avoid it,
get drunk every time you use a webapp.

Travis

On Wed, Oct 7, 2015, 5:14 AM Georgi Guninski <guninski at guninski.com> wrote:

> On Wed, Oct 07, 2015 at 08:59:56AM +0100, oshwm wrote:
> > > btw, in the subject is "mm" typo, joke or something else?
> > >
> > >
> >
> > Ha ha, just noticed that, maybe we've been focusing on the wrong issue :D
>
> Indeed, introducing RandomMess might border with steganography in some
> implementations ;)
>
>
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From jya at pipeline.com  Wed Oct  7 11:33:27 2015
From: jya at pipeline.com (John Young)
Date: Wed, 07 Oct 2015 14:33:27 -0400
Subject: NSA Releases 21 Oral History Interviews
Message-ID: <E1ZjtWK-0007Mw-DV@elasmtp-spurfowl.atl.sa.earthlink.net>

21 oral history interviews released by NSA 6 Oct 2015 (1,552 pp)

https://cryptome.org/2015/10/nsa-15-1006.zip (46MB)

Source:

https://www.nsa.gov/public_info/declass/oral_history_interviews.shtml


Emacs!
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From oshwm at openmailbox.org  Wed Oct  7 07:21:37 2015
From: oshwm at openmailbox.org (oshwm)
Date: Wed, 07 Oct 2015 15:21:37 +0100
Subject: Introduce randommess in keypress timings
In-Reply-To: <CAKtE3zeFF-=iRLw4AHZZKhh3=Ky=yYKgob+7GZ18PU04Q5DpJQ@mail.gmail.com>
References: <1343496924.1220914.1444162539833.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com>
 <561432CC.2070304@openmailbox.org> <20151007053710.GA2657@sivokote.iziade.m$>
 <5614BBC8.3090204@openmailbox.org> <20151007070846.GB2657@sivokote.iziade.m$>
 <5614D0FC.1070507@openmailbox.org> <20151007091209.GE2657@sivokote.iziade.m$>
 <CAKtE3zeFF-=iRLw4AHZZKhh3=Ky=yYKgob+7GZ18PU04Q5DpJQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <56152A71.6000706@openmailbox.org>



On 07/10/15 14:25, Travis Biehn wrote:
> Normalizing / randomizing is fine. Anonymity sticks out, hasn't learned to
> blend in.
>
> Keyboard timing is way down the list gentlemans. If you want to avoid it,
> get drunk every time you use a webapp.

Fair point, has anyone ever produced a peer agreed priority ordered list
of privacy and anonymity threatening devices or software etc classified
with either solved/not solved?

It's a simple stupid question and I probably know the answer but is it
something needed so that globally all activists/coders/etc can work
through it?


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From jya at pipeline.com  Wed Oct  7 12:22:29 2015
From: jya at pipeline.com (John Young)
Date: Wed, 07 Oct 2015 15:22:29 -0400
Subject: Axe Campaigne Oral History
Message-ID: <E1ZjuHZ-0006oZ-T5@elasmtp-spurfowl.atl.sa.earthlink.net>

Oral history of Howard Campaigne, NSA-OH-20-83, not among those 
released yesterday, from June 2014. Scratch it. 





From nelson_mikel at yahoo.com  Wed Oct  7 09:48:49 2015
From: nelson_mikel at yahoo.com (Michael Nelson)
Date: Wed, 7 Oct 2015 16:48:49 +0000 (UTC)
Subject: Introduce randommess in keypress timings
In-Reply-To: <1394632190.1340809.1444180572869.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com>
References: <1394632190.1340809.1444180572869.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <1840602720.226067.1444236529423.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com>




> It is surprising to know that Javascript is fast enough not to have an impact on system performance when monitoring the keystroke timing!

Well it does have an impact, but not enough to ruin things.  Of course it's not just js itself, but the browser, which swaps things in and out to do lots of things whenever it feels like it.

As requested, here are some details.  This is more technical than political, but may be of interest.  This concerns keystroke dynamics on a phrase known by the auth server, not the general background stuff. So we are not really talking about the passive spying/monitoring here, but rather a potential product. So after I wrote my keystroke dynamics proof-of-concept I discovered that the statistical technique had been patented 25 years before (the patent had expired), which validated my approach... Mine had some extra twizzlers though.


At Web browser-based initialization, the user sets a reference challenge word, say, "foobar". She must then enter some samples.  For each sample, a vector of 12 time values is created, one for each keyDown and keyUp event.  Some subtlety is needed in the programming, as keyUp on F might occur before keyDown on O on one sample, but after on the next.  We would like to compare apples to apples.

So we have a sample from the population of vectors as generated by the human.  When authentication is checked, we must measure the distance of our trial vector, from the population.  For this I used the Mahalanobis distance.  Mahalanobis was a well-known Indian statistician who in the 1930s designed a test in order to help anthropologists decide whether skull fragments found in caves matched each other.  This test measures the distance between each pair of entries in a vector.  So F-down and F-up are compared, and also F-down and A-down are compared.  Crucially, the distributions for each pair are normalized.  The vectors can have any numerical data in the components.  It can be used in botany with leaf area, weight, rainfall, etc.  It works beautifully for typing patterns.  Notice that we don't need to extract "dwell" times for keys, but all the same info is there in the more primitive array.

I set a configurable threshold of 20 for the distance triggering secondary authentication.  If I typed with proper focus, I would get distance of say around 4.  If someone else typed they would get say 70 or 150.  These are just typical examples.  It worked fine.  Here are some things I learned.

1. It's very hard to test objectively to make a business case.  Why?  Well if you go around the cubicles asking people to try it, you might get some people testing it on a laptop they don't normally use, or using some sort of random typing, on a string that they don't have an established pattern for.  I realized that KD is not magic.  Just as you would not expect to type a normal password "123456" by mashing the keys randomly, you have to consciously type in your official pattern for KD to work.  It is well-known that the best words for KD are things like your own name, for which you have a well-established pattern.  Now you see one of the reasons that this stuff has not taken off.  You might assiduously set the samples (or have passive background capturing working) on your usual desktop.  Then it will fail when you hunt-and-peck on your laptop.

2. I had a mobile developer add in touchscreen events for an iPhone test.  This uses character and time, and also x and y co-ordinates for both press and release (there is some drag).   The future will bring force.  The beauty of Mahalanobis is that these just go right in and work immediately.  Well, the stats does.  Dealing with these big fat vectors is not trivial.  I proved that it would work (actually it could not fail), but did not complete the mobile version.


3. I hacked the stats out in C.  Interestingly, for me it was harder getting the online demo going with the Web page, jQuery, PHP, and MySQL, than implementing the actual Mahalanobis test.  Maybe I should set the demo up for folks to try.

4. Twizzlers.  One is that I allowed arbitrary shifty characters in my phrase.  So in fact our user could simply tap her favorite rhythm on the Ctrl key, for her authentication factor.  Worked fine.

5. Hope the above was of interest...



mn




From schear.steve at gmail.com  Wed Oct  7 10:26:00 2015
From: schear.steve at gmail.com (Steven Schear)
Date: Wed, 7 Oct 2015 17:26:00 +0000
Subject: Snowden on the Twitters
In-Reply-To: <CAD2Ti2-XGdeykC7Ji6wGesPq0rY7vLvjoBu05rm8gphL4bvGpQ@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAD2Ti2-ZiZDAR_mLFAQqcgLVyyvrv2o2Kx3ri+jBK3o7aUF6QA@mail.gmail.com>
 <560ce15f.0212370a.97fe1.ffffa6e2@mx.google.com>
 <560D4B5F.3010305@riseup.net> <1459598.CCgg234MoK@lapuntu>
 <560EADF5.80207@riseup.net>
 <CAD2Ti2-XGdeykC7Ji6wGesPq0rY7vLvjoBu05rm8gphL4bvGpQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAMyHXXeXE0JYodGCggSMkRa99+Yc_bYOu8dDukMt2ZCYTpKxVg@mail.gmail.com>

Frank Chodorov's, The Rise and Fall of Society <
https://mises.org/files/rise-and-fall-society5pdf/download?token=6KespDgB>
pretty much lays out the scenario that societies start in anarchistic ways
but almost always, and foolishly, gravitate toward transferring powers to
"authorities". These eventually lead to a formal government, that becomes
The Stat,e which abuses its citizens and eventually falls or is overthrown,
casting society's order into chaos/anarchy, only to begin a new cycle.

Steve

On Sun, Oct 4, 2015 at 1:43 AM, grarpamp <grarpamp at gmail.com> wrote:

> >>> “Any movement that seeks social justice through political involvement
> >>> and attempting to hold public officials democratically accountable is
> >>> doomed to failure. The only real way to achieve social justice is by
> >>> bypassing the state, treating it as irrelevant, and building the kind
> of
> >>> society we want without the government’s permission.”
>
> Every government ever tried in past history has been a failure.
> Many governments in current history are no more than tweaks
> on the past and are thus doomed to failure in time. The ones
> that aren't tweaks have questionable prospects at coming close
> to the 1200+ years of Ancient Rome (which failed). The US is
> bankrupt and pissed away all it's political and other capital
> the last 15 years and is now being eclipsed by Communists
> (a large part of bRiCs), lol. The history of government is failure.
> In the future, try doing without. The worst you're get is failure,
> which is no loss because odds-wise that's what you're in already,
> and likely to choose by default on any reboot... do you really
> want to subject your great X 10^n grandkids to that cycle again?
>
> Politically this picture is now reversed...
>
> https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/5/53/Gorbachev_and_Reagan_1988-5.jpg
>
> WTF all these politik [sub]threads have to do with cypherpunk,
> can we please have moar cypher and moar punk nao and less
> pussy government asskissers and debaters?
>
>
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From themikebest at gmail.com  Wed Oct  7 14:26:51 2015
From: themikebest at gmail.com (Michael Best)
Date: Wed, 7 Oct 2015 17:26:51 -0400
Subject: Cryptome has been leaking its user logs for over a year
Message-ID: <CANFTA0-4ZDCq-QMAj=KeT7i00OUvBWCZ2VM32HHsnzMiUhkMeg@mail.gmail.com>

Let me begin by saying that Cryptome initially denied the leak, then that
the data was stolen, then that the whole thing was a fake "a lie by [a]
spy-newbie." Look at the data itself and examine the multiple sources, then
decide for yourself.

It's important to note that the logs were not just found in the USBs John
Young/Cryptome sent to me, but in the ones sent to "bandmon", who unless
I'm mistaken is coderman at gmail.com
https://thepiratebay.mn/torrent/11113511/Cryptome_archive_2014-06-02

Original post at
http://that1archive.neocities.org/subfolder1/cryptome-leaked-logs.html

If you haven't read why the alleged GCHQ slide showing spying on
Cryptome.org's users could have been made by anyone, I recommend you do so
before reading this
<http://that1archive.neocities.org/subfolder1/gchq-cryptome-slide.html>
http://that1archive.neocities.org/subfolder1/gchq-cryptome-slide.html. In
summary, I showed that the information on the slide could have been mocked
up, depsite matching the logs for Cryptome.org. Cryptome has denied the
accuracy of my data, while oddly accusing me of stealing the data, and
leaves me with no alternatives to posting the data online for others to
review and verify.

The data came from Cryptome itself, on a pair of USBs they mailed to me
<https://archive.org/details/cryptome-archive>
https://archive.org/details/cryptome-archive. Within those USBs were server
logs that include user IPs (spanning several months), .htaccess files, and
a pwd file. After finding the data in the USB Cryptome had just sent me, I
sent an email attempting to verify it hadn't been included as something
extra that was not for public distrubition:

From juan.g71 at gmail.com  Wed Oct  7 13:35:52 2015
From: juan.g71 at gmail.com (Juan)
Date: Wed, 7 Oct 2015 17:35:52 -0300
Subject: Sometimes Putin is a little bit cruel.
In-Reply-To: <561558EB.6090504@riseup.net>
References: <CAOsGNSTpa39gk8ZMrMoHiAJfYRmML6SWukdnAExfcZzMH7WJ1g@mail.gmail.com>
 <2890777.nSFVrcJOqd@lapuntu> <5612B303.5000102@riseup.net>
 <1835493.Xaqpm3Rnrn@lapuntu> <561558EB.6090504@riseup.net>
Message-ID: <561580df.0129370a.daca8.2c9a@mx.google.com>

On Wed, 7 Oct 2015 10:39:55 -0700
Razer <Rayzer at riseup.net> wrote:

> 
> 
> On 10/06/2015 03:19 PM, rysiek wrote:
> > Not saying any of these (CIA in Chechnya, FSB in Iraq or
> > Afghanistan, etc)
> 
> George Soros (for instance), NOT CIA. That's how you get true
> plausible deniability.


	Oh come on. Soros is a humanist, a 'libertarian', a champion of
	the 'free' 'regulated' market and the 'open' society.

	He would never do evil. Just like google and goldman sachs. 

	

> 
> The Russians have no person like that. They use their foreign policy
> channels. Anyone as wealthy as Soros in Russia (if there is such a
> person) is a Kleptocrat and generally want to destroy the Russian

> 
> Example of what Porter Goss meant:
> 
> Right now the US is making claims via the Daily Beast that the
> Russians bombed a hospital in al-Nusra/ISIS HQ Idlib Syria.
> 
> The US government is making NO CLAIM AT ALL. They're leaving it to the
> Western NGO backed hospital's staff and a guy whose CV is:
> 
> > "Oubai Shahbandar is a Syrian-American, former Department of Defense
> > official, and currently serves as a Strategic Communications Advisor
> > to the Syrian Coalition. With over seven years of experience working
> > for the Department of Defense as a strategic analyst and foreign
> > affairs specialist, Mr. Shahbandar has an extensive and diverse
> > background in developing national security policy throughout the
> > Middle East and South Asia. He served a one-year tour in Iraq from
> > 2007 to 2008 during General Petraeus' surge as a strategic analyst
> > supporting counterinsurgency operations and the U.S. military's
> > outreach to the Sons of Iraq program."
> 
> You know what the "Sons of Iraq program" was rysiek?
> 
> It was the publicly announced US attempt in Iraq to get al-Qaeda
> affiliated Sunnis to work as militias for the government, paid for by
> the US. The 'paymasters' were a little slow so most of them, much like
> the ISIS fighters in Idlib, of whom some most likely are those former
> 'sons', 'defected to al-Qaeda, and the guy mentioned above is a LONG
> TERM "Handler" for those folks as propaganda intermediary for the
> "Syrian Coalition", western governments, working for a PRIVATE NGO
> with no direct affiliation anymore to the CIA or Pentagon.
> 
> RR
> 
> PS. George Soros is only 4 degrees separated from al-Qaeda.
> 
> He funds the "White Helmets" in Syria, the "Free Syrian Army's"
> fighter(1) SAR team that OCCASIONALLY rescues a civilian. Those FSA
> fighters defect to al-Nusra. 70 just did so and stated that was their
> intent from the git (2). al-Nusra swears allegiance to ISIS (3), and
> ISIS was formerly known as al-Qaeda in Iraq.(4)
> 
> All the above has happened without one US dollar going through
> government channels (except the publicly known funding to train the
> defecting fighters).
> 




From jya at pipeline.com  Wed Oct  7 14:50:09 2015
From: jya at pipeline.com (John Young)
Date: Wed, 07 Oct 2015 17:50:09 -0400
Subject: [cryptome] Cryptome has been leaking its user logs for over a year
In-Reply-To: <CANFTA0-4ZDCq-QMAj=KeT7i00OUvBWCZ2VM32HHsnzMiUhkMeg@mail.g
 mail.com>
References: <CANFTA0-4ZDCq-QMAj=KeT7i00OUvBWCZ2VM32HHsnzMiUhkMeg@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <E1ZjwZs-00064U-Jv@elasmtp-banded.atl.sa.earthlink.net>

This is a campaign by Best to tout his newbie spy skills. Good luck 
on getting a job, we say.





From shelley at misanthropia.org  Wed Oct  7 17:59:28 2015
From: shelley at misanthropia.org (Shelley)
Date: Wed, 07 Oct 2015 17:59:28 -0700
Subject: Cryptome has been leaking its user logs for over a year
In-Reply-To: <CANFTA0_qs+J0=e_VdpScA9m8e0-6d5jp4hR9HZu7Vy1-jQ=cZQ@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CANFTA0_qs+J0=e_VdpScA9m8e0-6d5jp4hR9HZu7Vy1-jQ=cZQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <20151008005912.170D46800F7@frontend2.nyi.internal>

On October 7, 2015 4:49:00 PM Michael Best <themikebest at gmail.com> wrote:

> John Young deleted my post to the Cryptome freelist (
> http://www.freelists.org/list/cryptome
> http://www.freelists.org/archive/cryptome/10-2015) rather than let the
> readers look at the data and judge for themselves.
>
> Because transparency??


...John?  It isn't in the archive, why?

I respect you immensely, and I know you've told us multiple times not to 
trust anyone - including you.  I'd like to hear your side.  This 
potentially affects me, as I've been visiting Cryptome during the time 
period in question (and long before.)

I'm just now going to look at the data.  Anxiously awaiting your input, JY.

-Shelley





From guninski at guninski.com  Wed Oct  7 08:58:59 2015
From: guninski at guninski.com (Georgi Guninski)
Date: Wed, 7 Oct 2015 18:58:59 +0300
Subject: Introduce randommess in keypress timings
In-Reply-To: <CAKtE3zeFF-=iRLw4AHZZKhh3=Ky=yYKgob+7GZ18PU04Q5DpJQ@mail.gmail.com>
References: <1343496924.1220914.1444162539833.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com>
 <561432CC.2070304@openmailbox.org>
 <20151007053710.GA2657@sivokote.iziade.m$>
 <5614BBC8.3090204@openmailbox.org>
 <20151007070846.GB2657@sivokote.iziade.m$>
 <5614D0FC.1070507@openmailbox.org>
 <20151007091209.GE2657@sivokote.iziade.m$>
 <CAKtE3zeFF-=iRLw4AHZZKhh3=Ky=yYKgob+7GZ18PU04Q5DpJQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <20151007155859.GG2657@sivokote.iziade.m$>

On Wed, Oct 07, 2015 at 01:25:35PM +0000, Travis Biehn wrote:
> Normalizing / randomizing is fine. Anonymity sticks out, hasn't learned to
> blend in.
> 
> Keyboard timing is way down the list gentlemans. If you want to avoid it,
> get drunk every time you use a webapp.
>

IMHO "gentlemans" may be offending/sexism to female ladies on this list
(if any).

"get drunk" may not work for japanese/chinese and possibly others who do 
not score on drinking well ;)




From themikebest at gmail.com  Wed Oct  7 16:41:37 2015
From: themikebest at gmail.com (Michael Best)
Date: Wed, 7 Oct 2015 19:41:37 -0400
Subject: Cryptome has been leaking its user logs for over a year
Message-ID: <CANFTA0_qs+J0=e_VdpScA9m8e0-6d5jp4hR9HZu7Vy1-jQ=cZQ@mail.gmail.com>

John Young deleted my post to the Cryptome freelist (
http://www.freelists.org/list/cryptome
http://www.freelists.org/archive/cryptome/10-2015) rather than let the
readers look at the data and judge for themselves.

Because transparency??
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From oshwm at openmailbox.org  Wed Oct  7 14:36:50 2015
From: oshwm at openmailbox.org (oshwm)
Date: Wed, 07 Oct 2015 22:36:50 +0100
Subject: Introduce randommess in keypress timings
In-Reply-To: <1840602720.226067.1444236529423.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com>
References: <1394632190.1340809.1444180572869.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com>
 <1840602720.226067.1444236529423.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <56159072.5060909@openmailbox.org>

On 07/10/15 17:48, Michael Nelson wrote:
> 
> 
> 
>> It is surprising to know that Javascript is fast enough not to have
>> an impact on system performance when monitoring the keystroke
>> timing!
> 
> Well it does have an impact, but not enough to ruin things.  Of
> course it's not just js itself, but the browser, which swaps things
> in and out to do lots of things whenever it feels like it.
> 
> As requested, here are some details.  This is more technical than
> political, but may be of interest.  

Technical is fine, there are a lot of Political discussions on here but
I don't think it's by design, just a side effect :)

> This concerns keystroke dynamics
> on a phrase known by the auth server, not the general background
> stuff. So we are not really talking about the passive
> spying/monitoring here, but rather a potential product. So after I
> wrote my keystroke dynamics proof-of-concept I discovered that the
> statistical technique had been patented 25 years before (the patent
> had expired), which validated my approach... Mine had some extra
> twizzlers though.
> 
> 
> At Web browser-based initialization, the user sets a reference
> challenge word, say, "foobar". She must then enter some samples.  For
> each sample, a vector of 12 time values is created, one for each
> keyDown and keyUp event.  Some subtlety is needed in the programming,
> as keyUp on F might occur before keyDown on O on one sample, but
> after on the next.  We would like to compare apples to apples.
> 
> So we have a sample from the population of vectors as generated by
> the human.  When authentication is checked, we must measure the
> distance of our trial vector, from the population.  For this I used
> the Mahalanobis distance.  Mahalanobis was a well-known Indian
> statistician who in the 1930s designed a test in order to help
> anthropologists decide whether skull fragments found in caves matched
> each other.  This test measures the distance between each pair of
> entries in a vector.  So F-down and F-up are compared, and also
> F-down and A-down are compared.  Crucially, the distributions for
> each pair are normalized.  The vectors can have any numerical data in
> the components.  It can be used in botany with leaf area, weight,
> rainfall, etc.  It works beautifully for typing patterns.  Notice
> that we don't need to extract "dwell" times for keys, but all the
> same info is there in the more primitive array.
> 
> I set a configurable threshold of 20 for the distance triggering
> secondary authentication.  If I typed with proper focus, I would get
> distance of say around 4.  If someone else typed they would get say
> 70 or 150.  These are just typical examples.  It worked fine.  Here
> are some things I learned.
> 
> 1. It's very hard to test objectively to make a business case.  Why?
> Well if you go around the cubicles asking people to try it, you might
> get some people testing it on a laptop they don't normally use, or
> using some sort of random typing, on a string that they don't have an
> established pattern for.  I realized that KD is not magic.  Just as
> you would not expect to type a normal password "123456" by mashing
> the keys randomly, you have to consciously type in your official
> pattern for KD to work.  It is well-known that the best words for KD
> are things like your own name, for which you have a well-established
> pattern.  Now you see one of the reasons that this stuff has not
> taken off.  You might assiduously set the samples (or have passive
> background capturing working) on your usual desktop.  Then it will
> fail when you hunt-and-peck on your laptop.
> 
> 2. I had a mobile developer add in touchscreen events for an iPhone
> test.  This uses character and time, and also x and y co-ordinates
> for both press and release (there is some drag).   The future will
> bring force.  The beauty of Mahalanobis is that these just go right
> in and work immediately.  Well, the stats does.  Dealing with these
> big fat vectors is not trivial.  I proved that it would work
> (actually it could not fail), but did not complete the mobile
> version.
> 
> 
> 3. I hacked the stats out in C.  Interestingly, for me it was harder
> getting the online demo going with the Web page, jQuery, PHP, and
> MySQL, than implementing the actual Mahalanobis test.  Maybe I should
> set the demo up for folks to try.
> 
> 4. Twizzlers.  One is that I allowed arbitrary shifty characters in
> my phrase.  So in fact our user could simply tap her favorite rhythm
> on the Ctrl key, for her authentication factor.  Worked fine.
> 
> 5. Hope the above was of interest...
> 

Definitely, thanks for writing it up.

> 
> 
> mn
> 

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From oshwm at openmailbox.org  Wed Oct  7 15:05:26 2015
From: oshwm at openmailbox.org (oshwm)
Date: Wed, 07 Oct 2015 23:05:26 +0100
Subject: [cryptome] Cryptome has been leaking its user logs for over a year
In-Reply-To: <E1ZjwZs-00064U-Jv@elasmtp-banded.atl.sa.earthlink.net>
References: <CANFTA0-4ZDCq-QMAj=KeT7i00OUvBWCZ2VM32HHsnzMiUhkMeg@mail.gmail.com>
 <E1ZjwZs-00064U-Jv@elasmtp-banded.atl.sa.earthlink.net>
Message-ID: <56159726.90908@openmailbox.org>

I have no idea of the validity of Best's claims but I find it slightly
amusing that the first time that archive.org captured his
http://that1archive.neocities.org website occurred on 11th September
2015 (911 in American).

On 07/10/15 22:50, John Young wrote:
> This is a campaign by Best to tout his newbie spy skills. Good luck on
> getting a job, we say.
> 
> 

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From grarpamp at gmail.com  Wed Oct  7 22:39:10 2015
From: grarpamp at gmail.com (grarpamp)
Date: Thu, 8 Oct 2015 01:39:10 -0400
Subject: Introduce randommess in keypress timings
In-Reply-To: <1840602720.226067.1444236529423.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com>
References: <1394632190.1340809.1444180572869.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com>
 <1840602720.226067.1444236529423.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <CAD2Ti2_9N4nNLpO12F6w6RGcTuTSPnoVDogLgdxVLmyc3-fFtA@mail.gmail.com>

On Wed, Oct 7, 2015 at 12:48 PM, Michael Nelson <nelson_mikel at yahoo.com> wrote:
> 4. Twizzlers.  One is that I allowed arbitrary shifty characters in my phrase.  So in fact our user could simply tap her favorite rhythm on the Ctrl key, for her authentication factor.  Worked fine.


Is there anything that tells us how many bits of entropy are found
in the brainsong (rhythm, melody) of random users? Such that
such a song could be read into passphrase data via software
and the PC keyboard controller. What are the requirements
of a strong song to reach 80/128/256 bits? Note that it is not
necessarily specific keys, but also, or primarily depress length,
multiple press, interpress timing, etc.




From grarpamp at gmail.com  Wed Oct  7 23:14:00 2015
From: grarpamp at gmail.com (grarpamp)
Date: Thu, 8 Oct 2015 02:14:00 -0400
Subject: Cryptome has been leaking its user logs for over a year
In-Reply-To: <20151008060551.GA2590@sivokote.iziade.m$>
References: <CANFTA0-4ZDCq-QMAj=KeT7i00OUvBWCZ2VM32HHsnzMiUhkMeg@mail.gmail.com>
 <20151008060551.GA2590@sivokote.iziade.m$>
Message-ID: <CAD2Ti2_UDNmhEjf1_+HDJxpg0COsVVsvL31o7JFkpRTZexnFyg@mail.gmail.com>

At the previously mentioned Masked Halloween Ball,
Cryptome may welcome a systems and methodology
review by a qualified local admin. Or not. If you are such
a person, ask Cryptome.




From grarpamp at gmail.com  Wed Oct  7 23:41:20 2015
From: grarpamp at gmail.com (grarpamp)
Date: Thu, 8 Oct 2015 02:41:20 -0400
Subject: Cryptome has been leaking its user logs for over a year
In-Reply-To: <CAPyX2ndWDYhgi9hC=MgNiZ_BkHNmCtYDaLE-12Yoi007VZAQ5g@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CANFTA0-4ZDCq-QMAj=KeT7i00OUvBWCZ2VM32HHsnzMiUhkMeg@mail.gmail.com>
 <20151008060551.GA2590@sivokote.iziade.m$>
 <CAD2Ti2_UDNmhEjf1_+HDJxpg0COsVVsvL31o7JFkpRTZexnFyg@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAPyX2ndWDYhgi9hC=MgNiZ_BkHNmCtYDaLE-12Yoi007VZAQ5g@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAD2Ti2-r=tHe+GMiRu=dpz-hKpUopk=T6gYmTrAeif6dJ8gXOw@mail.gmail.com>

On Thu, Oct 8, 2015 at 2:29 AM, Mark Steward <marksteward at gmail.com> wrote:
> On 8 Oct 2015 07:15, "grarpamp" <grarpamp at gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>> At the previously mentioned Masked Halloween Ball,
>
> I can't think of a more futile task.

Ask Cryptome.

> Watch out for JY's "outing" of any such
> person as a TLA stooge in the next few months.

It is of no consequence to a person who is masked,
and complements the buggery by stooges story of
Cryptome well. Don't trust, rubber up, or get hosed.




From grarpamp at gmail.com  Thu Oct  8 00:02:01 2015
From: grarpamp at gmail.com (grarpamp)
Date: Thu, 8 Oct 2015 03:02:01 -0400
Subject: Introduce randommess in keypress timings
In-Reply-To: <CAKtE3zeFF-=iRLw4AHZZKhh3=Ky=yYKgob+7GZ18PU04Q5DpJQ@mail.gmail.com>
References: <1343496924.1220914.1444162539833.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com>
 <561432CC.2070304@openmailbox.org> <20151007053710.GA2657@sivokote.iziade.m$>
 <5614BBC8.3090204@openmailbox.org> <20151007070846.GB2657@sivokote.iziade.m$>
 <5614D0FC.1070507@openmailbox.org> <20151007091209.GE2657@sivokote.iziade.m$>
 <CAKtE3zeFF-=iRLw4AHZZKhh3=Ky=yYKgob+7GZ18PU04Q5DpJQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAD2Ti29Mk51iKidxhnOg_CiYKH-9knqLXzxDUqYHnBkh8zCLuQ@mail.gmail.com>

On Wed, Oct 7, 2015 at 9:25 AM, Travis Biehn <tbiehn at gmail.com> wrote:
> Normalizing / randomizing is fine. Anonymity sticks out, hasn't learned to
> blend in.
>
> Keyboard timing is way down the list gentlemans. If you want to avoid it,
> get drunk every time you use a webapp.

Agreed that booze etc is potential. As is participating in foreign
native language
or orthagonal idea forums to you... since mimicry will modify your
standard self.
But only to the extent you do not adopt standard alter self.
Couple with kernel keyboard driver parameters and it would seem a win.




From grarpamp at gmail.com  Thu Oct  8 00:24:52 2015
From: grarpamp at gmail.com (grarpamp)
Date: Thu, 8 Oct 2015 03:24:52 -0400
Subject: How to buy a root CA certificate?
In-Reply-To: <20151008071220.GC2590@sivokote.iziade.m$>
References: <20151008071220.GC2590@sivokote.iziade.m$>
Message-ID: <CAD2Ti297eSBScBZxvoSXwgcZ-YBq=zMrkrm9587Mjy1w++sPqw@mail.gmail.com>

On Thu, Oct 8, 2015 at 3:12 AM, Georgi Guninski <guninski at guninski.com> wrote:
> Interested in how much money is necessary to buy CA cert chaining up to
> a trusted root and besides money is something else necessary.

Laughably or alternatively, becoming a root isn't hard... copy
and mogrify another root's policy/practice/security docs. Apply
to Mozilla, Apple, MS, Oracle. And you're a root. This may actually
be easier than convincing some root to tap you as an intermediate CA.
Beware politics of power.




From jd.cypherpunks at gmail.com  Wed Oct  7 19:51:47 2015
From: jd.cypherpunks at gmail.com (jd.cypherpunks at gmail.com)
Date: Thu, 08 Oct 2015 04:51:47 +0200
Subject: AW: Re: Cryptome has been leaking its user logs for over a year
Message-ID: <6hawnsp95u6dfolvqxgxcahw.1444272463503@email.android.com>

you're funny. possibly more than intended.

--michael

-------- Ursprüngliche Nachricht --------
Von: Michael Best <themikebest at gmail.com> 
Datum: 08.10.2015  01:41  (GMT+01:00) 
An: cypherpunks at cpunks.org 
Betreff: Re: Cryptome has been leaking its user logs for over a year 

John Young deleted my post to the Cryptome freelist (http://www.freelists.org/list/cryptome http://www.freelists.org/archive/cryptome/10-2015) rather than let the readers look at the data and judge for themselves. 

Because transparency??
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From jya at pipeline.com  Thu Oct  8 03:23:43 2015
From: jya at pipeline.com (John Young)
Date: Thu, 08 Oct 2015 06:23:43 -0400
Subject: Cryptome has been leaking its user logs for over a year
In-Reply-To: <56161089.6070907@openmailbox.org>
References: <CANFTA0-4ZDCq-QMAj=KeT7i00OUvBWCZ2VM32HHsnzMiUhkMeg@mail.gmail.com>
 <20151008060551.GA2590@sivokote.iziade.m$>
 <CAD2Ti2_UDNmhEjf1_+HDJxpg0COsVVsvL31o7JFkpRTZexnFyg@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAPyX2ndWDYhgi9hC=MgNiZ_BkHNmCtYDaLE-12Yoi007VZAQ5g@mail.gmail.com>
 <56161089.6070907@openmailbox.org>
Message-ID: <E1Zk8JS-0003XS-C7@elasmtp-galgo.atl.sa.earthlink.net>

We've encouraged Best to continue doing what he is doing after using Cryptome
as a platform, counsel and source of information. He did set up a website, did
mirror the Cryptome archives, did do further research and announce it widely
and has picked a fight with several parties, complained of mistreatment,
censorship, abuse, exposed collateral innocent (ha!) parties.

We also told Best log files are the dirtiest secret of the Internet, none are
secure, none private, none singular, admins and websites lie about using
them, exploiting them, deleting them, needing them, stealing them, accusing
about them, inflating them, rigging them. They pay for the Net, thus not ever
going away or kept secure.

So Best is going in the tried and true direction, many others have staggered.
And if determined he will avoid depending on anybody for support. More power
to the asshole, welcome to the world of disputatious assholes, cypherpunks,
the Internet, the planet.

Brave new growth to kill off the cowardly old.

Praise and support controls, don't seek it or succumb to it. Enjoy fucking
yourself, Best, to entertain audiences. Cheers and keep at it.








From odinn.cyberguerrilla at riseup.net  Thu Oct  8 00:11:39 2015
From: odinn.cyberguerrilla at riseup.net (odinn)
Date: Thu, 08 Oct 2015 07:11:39 +0000
Subject: Cyber Guerrilla Warfare, OPSEC, etc... [re: kicks bucket]
In-Reply-To: <CAD2Ti2_Z59aLCgV9mNSZGtbTnvN=ZXqToXQFcUwVdtPvyhJQ=A@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAD2Ti2_Z59aLCgV9mNSZGtbTnvN=ZXqToXQFcUwVdtPvyhJQ=A@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <5616172B.2020508@riseup.net>

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA512

Hola, assuming some / most of these questions are posed as just open
ones to reflect upon... nonetheless, I've tossed out a few "answers"
anyway (take with healthy dose of salt)

grarpamp:
> On Mon, Oct 5, 2015 at 4:51 AM, Georgi Guninski
> <guninski at guninski.com> wrote:
>> The ... situation ... is quite grave. Assume very severe ...
>> crisis hits ... relatively soon causing ...
> 
> "State Kicks the bucket" (and other use cases) bring about some 
> discussion around cyber guerrilla warfare of sorts...
> 
> Assume you're a terrist, warfighter, some flavor of activist / 
> dissident, human rights worker, journalist, hacker, VIP,
> whatever...
> 
> What is the time to a fix and physical intercept on your location?

This is generally happening / in process or has happened; you operate
under the assumption that it is happening or has happened and plan
time scale accordingly.

> 
> Possibly specified to within some radius such that you cannot
> escape without being captured, or at least being visually
> identified, etc. Modulo your own movement while on / off air. What
> are the capabilities of any particular chosen adversaries that are
> after your realtime fix?

Not always possible to identify in advance.  Easier to ascertain
assuming your goals / objectives are clear (thus narrowing possible
adversaries) and understanding of people's customs, language, etc
where you will be functioning (online and off).

> What is your loiter time before you must move to avoid capture?

Don't loiter long


> 
> Consider some various theatres, densities, infrastructures, and 
> situations in which you might operate... - War ravaged mideast
> "city" - Paris, New York, Tokyo - You're in soverign territory up
> against drones and monitoring / locating methods that ignore and
> cross political boundaries. - You're in soverign territory against
> local police forces. - On foot or on wheels. - Cameras everywhere,
> discretion kept how? - Whether you strictly follow "never use the
> same place twice", or not. - Locating tech deployed directly by
> adversary vs. adversary utilizing tech deployed by local utilities
> that serve the population. - How to operate on limited resources
> against the "haves".
> 
> Land lines are out since you'd churn through safe lines, unless 
> you're tapping into them. Also wifi, cellular, satcom,
> pamphleting.
> 
> Some examples could be drawn from the "wars" in the mideast. ie:
> You're spotted and fixed by undercover CIA agent, then droned 15
> min later.
> 
> What are your goals as a cyber guerrilla or OPSEC oriented
> individual or group in various tactical and strategic situations
> that you have an affinity with? What are the greator goals?
> 
> What are the likely interest areas of a cyber guerrilla beyond 
> personal survival of water, food, shelter?

Local surfing conditions
The sensation of the air as the wind blows
The sound of a laugh
A smile


> 
> Do wide and local comms channels have trade value? How to maintain 
> them?

Carefully

> 
> Any any other things related to cyber war, OPSEC type things that
> keep you alive / valued when bucket is kicked, even if you're 
> sheeple....
> 

- -- 
http://abis.io ~
"a protocol concept to enable decentralization
and expansion of a giving economy, and a new social good"
https://keybase.io/odinn
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From cathalgarvey at cathalgarvey.me  Wed Oct  7 23:12:47 2015
From: cathalgarvey at cathalgarvey.me (Cathal (Phone))
Date: Thu, 08 Oct 2015 07:12:47 +0100
Subject: Cryptome has been leaking its user logs for over a year
In-Reply-To: <20151008060551.GA2590@sivokote.iziade.m$>
References: <CANFTA0-4ZDCq-QMAj=KeT7i00OUvBWCZ2VM32HHsnzMiUhkMeg@mail.gmail.com>
 <20151008060551.GA2590@sivokote.iziade.m$>
Message-ID: <A919010B-5869-4769-8FA7-655338783A5B@cathalgarvey.me>

Everything John says is weird, and he's shown a wilful disregard for even the most basic forms of visitor security all along, from initially refusing SSL onwards. This is *entirely* in character for the caricature-JY I know through this list.

On 8 October 2015 07:05:51 IST, Georgi Guninski <guninski at guninski.com> wrote:
>John's replies appear weird to me.
>
>Don't exclude the possibility the web server to be compromised (and
>likely all John's boxen, he had some troubles with PGP keys) and
>someone
>included the alleged logs on purpose.
>
>Recently read leaked presentation that TLAs use such operations.

-- 
Sent from my Android device with K-9 Mail. Please excuse my brevity.
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From admin at pilobilus.net  Thu Oct  8 04:18:29 2015
From: admin at pilobilus.net (Steve Kinney)
Date: Thu, 8 Oct 2015 07:18:29 -0400
Subject: Cryptome has been leaking its user logs for over a year
In-Reply-To: <CANFTA0-4ZDCq-QMAj=KeT7i00OUvBWCZ2VM32HHsnzMiUhkMeg@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CANFTA0-4ZDCq-QMAj=KeT7i00OUvBWCZ2VM32HHsnzMiUhkMeg@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <56165105.3010007@pilobilus.net>

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1

The overall message I get from JYA's impressionistic essays on
network security is that in his view there ain't no such animal.
Add to this the well established security axiom across all
contexts, "a trusted entity is one that can break your security
model."  In the present context, trusting Cryptome to protect your
privacy is a sucker bet:  Either you don't care, or your own OpSec
is up to that task, or you are screwed.  This context makes the
issue at hand an object lesson in stating the obvious.

A rented, public facing, vendor configured and maintained web
server instance appears to be 'leaking' its http logs to world +
dog.  That would mean data that is supposed to be available only
to a few dozen intelligence services, tech support guise and
marketing departments is world readable.  A level playing field
with equal access for all is worse than one where access is
monopolized by a clusterfuck of privileged players why?

:o)






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From marksteward at gmail.com  Wed Oct  7 23:29:03 2015
From: marksteward at gmail.com (Mark Steward)
Date: Thu, 8 Oct 2015 07:29:03 +0100
Subject: Cryptome has been leaking its user logs for over a year
In-Reply-To: <CAD2Ti2_UDNmhEjf1_+HDJxpg0COsVVsvL31o7JFkpRTZexnFyg@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CANFTA0-4ZDCq-QMAj=KeT7i00OUvBWCZ2VM32HHsnzMiUhkMeg@mail.gmail.com>
 <20151008060551.GA2590@sivokote.iziade.m$>
 <CAD2Ti2_UDNmhEjf1_+HDJxpg0COsVVsvL31o7JFkpRTZexnFyg@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAPyX2ndWDYhgi9hC=MgNiZ_BkHNmCtYDaLE-12Yoi007VZAQ5g@mail.gmail.com>

On 8 Oct 2015 07:15, "grarpamp" <grarpamp at gmail.com> wrote:
>
> At the previously mentioned Masked Halloween Ball,
> Cryptome may welcome a systems and methodology
> review by a qualified local admin. Or not. If you are such
> a person, ask Cryptome.

I can't think of a more futile task. Watch out for JY's "outing" of any
such person as a TLA stooge in the next few months.

Mark
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From oshwm at openmailbox.org  Wed Oct  7 23:37:11 2015
From: oshwm at openmailbox.org (oshwm)
Date: Thu, 08 Oct 2015 07:37:11 +0100
Subject: Cryptome has been leaking its user logs for over a year
In-Reply-To: <A919010B-5869-4769-8FA7-655338783A5B@cathalgarvey.me>
References: <CANFTA0-4ZDCq-QMAj=KeT7i00OUvBWCZ2VM32HHsnzMiUhkMeg@mail.gmail.com>
 <20151008060551.GA2590@sivokote.iziade.m$>
 <A919010B-5869-4769-8FA7-655338783A5B@cathalgarvey.me>
Message-ID: <56160F17.3090908@openmailbox.org>

John's point about SSL (TLS) was with regards to the CA system I think
(he would be able to confirm/deny this in a suitable piece of Haiku).

The CA System requires you to trust some of the world's largest (and US
based) corporations not to share Certificate private keys with TLA's or
the highest bidders.
How could it possibly go wrong :D


On 08/10/15 07:12, Cathal (Phone) wrote:
> Everything John says is weird, and he's shown a wilful disregard for even the most basic forms of visitor security all along, from initially refusing SSL onwards. This is *entirely* in character for the caricature-JY I know through this list.
> 
> On 8 October 2015 07:05:51 IST, Georgi Guninski <guninski at guninski.com> wrote:
>> John's replies appear weird to me.
>>
>> Don't exclude the possibility the web server to be compromised (and
>> likely all John's boxen, he had some troubles with PGP keys) and
>> someone
>> included the alleged logs on purpose.
>>
>> Recently read leaked presentation that TLAs use such operations.
> 

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From hettinga at gmail.com  Thu Oct  8 04:39:53 2015
From: hettinga at gmail.com (Robert Hettinga)
Date: Thu, 8 Oct 2015 07:39:53 -0400
Subject: Cryptome has been leaking its user logs for over a year
In-Reply-To: <E1Zk8JS-0003XS-C7@elasmtp-galgo.atl.sa.earthlink.net>
References: <CANFTA0-4ZDCq-QMAj=KeT7i00OUvBWCZ2VM32HHsnzMiUhkMeg@mail.gmail.com>
 <20151008060551.GA2590@sivokote.iziade.m$>
 <CAD2Ti2_UDNmhEjf1_+HDJxpg0COsVVsvL31o7JFkpRTZexnFyg@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAPyX2ndWDYhgi9hC=MgNiZ_BkHNmCtYDaLE-12Yoi007VZAQ5g@mail.gmail.com>
 <56161089.6070907@openmailbox.org>
 <E1Zk8JS-0003XS-C7@elasmtp-galgo.atl.sa.earthlink.net>
Message-ID: <A7B8907F-DD46-4584-836E-459B2AC2BA28@gmail.com>


> On Oct 8, 2015, at 6:23 AM, John Young <jya at pipeline.com> wrote:
> 
> We also told Best log files are the dirtiest secret of the Internet, none are
> secure, none private, none singular, admins and websites lie about using
> them, exploiting them, deleting them, needing them, stealing them, accusing
> about them, inflating them, rigging them. They pay for the Net, thus not ever
> going away or kept secure.

Information that is only valuable because of book-entry transaction settlement, by the way. Like, say, (for the current generation of ancom cypherpunks, who don’t know commerce from the dictatorship of the proletariat) checks, credit cards, and, yes, bitcoin. The blockchain is merely :-) a cryptographically secure inviolate public ledger, remember. It may be possible to hide transactions there, but I wouldn’t bet my life on it.

Because we *need* biometricly-provable is-a-physical-person and-then-you-go-to-jail-if-you-lie identity in order for transactions to even execute, much clear and settle, we’ve created an entire industry based on the leftover information exhaust, dovetailing nicely with our former practice of massive industrial production runs of exactly identical goods, and thus the transfer-pricing of ostensibly marketable (as in free exchange, not as in advertising) assets, now migrated to the internet with a vengeance, to be used as evidence against us in a court of law, Arlo.


Instantaneously-settled transactions, like, say, with blind signatures, which, not coincidentally, required no counterparty identity to function, only a linked list of expired certificates, only readable at the time of double spending, is why I joined the original cypherpunks list to begin with. In 1994. We’ve been at this a long time. 

At the time, I had digital good that I could email to someone, like say, Oak Ridge Labs, but they could only send me a paper purchase order by return mail. Which I then had to reply to that purchase order, by mail, with a paper invoice, which they would then send me a paper check, also in the mail, which would then clear. Within five business days. Usually.


So now we’re learning, in increasingly intimate detail, something I first observed in public at the last Financial Cryptography Conference I went to, almost ten years ago: the closer you get to T-0 transaction settlement you get, the more dangerous identity-based finance becomes.

And that’s also why I still say that financial cryptography is the only cryptography that matters.

Cheers,
RAH







From oshwm at openmailbox.org  Wed Oct  7 23:43:21 2015
From: oshwm at openmailbox.org (oshwm)
Date: Thu, 08 Oct 2015 07:43:21 +0100
Subject: Cryptome has been leaking its user logs for over a year
In-Reply-To: <CAPyX2ndWDYhgi9hC=MgNiZ_BkHNmCtYDaLE-12Yoi007VZAQ5g@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CANFTA0-4ZDCq-QMAj=KeT7i00OUvBWCZ2VM32HHsnzMiUhkMeg@mail.gmail.com>
 <20151008060551.GA2590@sivokote.iziade.m$>
 <CAD2Ti2_UDNmhEjf1_+HDJxpg0COsVVsvL31o7JFkpRTZexnFyg@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAPyX2ndWDYhgi9hC=MgNiZ_BkHNmCtYDaLE-12Yoi007VZAQ5g@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <56161089.6070907@openmailbox.org>



On 08/10/15 07:29, Mark Steward wrote:
> On 8 Oct 2015 07:15, "grarpamp" <grarpamp at gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>> At the previously mentioned Masked Halloween Ball,
>> Cryptome may welcome a systems and methodology
>> review by a qualified local admin. Or not. If you are such
>> a person, ask Cryptome.
> 
> I can't think of a more futile task. Watch out for JY's "outing" of any
> such person as a TLA stooge in the next few months.
> 

So, a helpful chap approaches JY, offers to asist with auditing systems
and processes in private so no risk of embarassment (if there is any).
Does job, assists JY in fixing issues without publicising any details.
JY announces an audit was done and some issues were resolved.
Everyone goes back to BAU.

Now, as part of total disclosure, this misses a valuable part of the
process which is to publicise the audit and detailed issues found and
fixed but DOES have an overall positive effect without too much
grumbling and moaning.

Of course, we could just slag JY off instead and expect a positive result?

> Mark
> 

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From cathalgarvey at cathalgarvey.me  Thu Oct  8 00:24:51 2015
From: cathalgarvey at cathalgarvey.me (Cathal (Phone))
Date: Thu, 08 Oct 2015 08:24:51 +0100
Subject: Cryptome has been leaking its user logs for over a year
In-Reply-To: <56160F17.3090908@openmailbox.org>
References: <CANFTA0-4ZDCq-QMAj=KeT7i00OUvBWCZ2VM32HHsnzMiUhkMeg@mail.gmail.com>
 <20151008060551.GA2590@sivokote.iziade.m$>
 <A919010B-5869-4769-8FA7-655338783A5B@cathalgarvey.me>
 <56160F17.3090908@openmailbox.org>
Message-ID: <8EC0AE17-C802-45CB-8F7F-28DFBCF69AEB@cathalgarvey.me>

Which remains bollocks because if he really gave a crap he could still offer a self-signed cert with fingerprints out of band and leave it to the visitor to either verify or accept the fearful securoty warnings. As is, we have KARMA POLICE using cryptome visitors as a correlative data source, which it seems SSL would have been a barrier to (because KP was based on unencrypted streams and cookie/real ID/IP correlation).

On 8 October 2015 07:37:11 IST, oshwm <oshwm at openmailbox.org> wrote:
>John's point about SSL (TLS) was with regards to the CA system I think
>(he would be able to confirm/deny this in a suitable piece of Haiku).
>
>The CA System requires you to trust some of the world's largest (and US
>based) corporations not to share Certificate private keys with TLA's or
>the highest bidders.
>How could it possibly go wrong :D
>
>
>On 08/10/15 07:12, Cathal (Phone) wrote:
>> Everything John says is weird, and he's shown a wilful disregard for
>even the most basic forms of visitor security all along, from initially
>refusing SSL onwards. This is *entirely* in character for the
>caricature-JY I know through this list.
>> 
>> On 8 October 2015 07:05:51 IST, Georgi Guninski
><guninski at guninski.com> wrote:
>>> John's replies appear weird to me.
>>>
>>> Don't exclude the possibility the web server to be compromised (and
>>> likely all John's boxen, he had some troubles with PGP keys) and
>>> someone
>>> included the alleged logs on purpose.
>>>
>>> Recently read leaked presentation that TLAs use such operations.
>> 

-- 
Sent from my Android device with K-9 Mail. Please excuse my brevity.
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From oshwm at openmailbox.org  Thu Oct  8 00:49:32 2015
From: oshwm at openmailbox.org (oshwm)
Date: Thu, 08 Oct 2015 08:49:32 +0100
Subject: How to buy a root CA certificate?
In-Reply-To: <CAD2Ti297eSBScBZxvoSXwgcZ-YBq=zMrkrm9587Mjy1w++sPqw@mail.gmail.com>
References: <20151008071220.GC2590@sivokote.iziade.m$>
 <CAD2Ti297eSBScBZxvoSXwgcZ-YBq=zMrkrm9587Mjy1w++sPqw@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <5616200C.2050107@openmailbox.org>



On 08/10/15 08:24, grarpamp wrote:
> On Thu, Oct 8, 2015 at 3:12 AM, Georgi Guninski <guninski at guninski.com> wrote:
>> Interested in how much money is necessary to buy CA cert chaining up to
>> a trusted root and besides money is something else necessary.
> 
> Laughably or alternatively, becoming a root isn't hard... copy
> and mogrify another root's policy/practice/security docs. Apply
> to Mozilla, Apple, MS, Oracle. And you're a root. This may actually
> be easier than convincing some root to tap you as an intermediate CA.
> Beware politics of power.
> 

Talk to https://letsencrypt.org - see what they had to do (or if they
are willing to have you chain to them) :)
As it's non-commercial they may just be happy to chat tech with you for
a while.
I have no contacts there but I think it's part of or linked to EFF.

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From themikebest at gmail.com  Thu Oct  8 05:58:36 2015
From: themikebest at gmail.com (Michael Best)
Date: Thu, 8 Oct 2015 08:58:36 -0400
Subject: Cryptome has been leaking its user logs for over a year
Message-ID: <CANFTA0-3URYhRbTF59Hwi2Z8-U4abAx=t8SZF8kaNrix6pQUWg@mail.gmail.com>

That was it, that the slide might not be authentic or could have been an
internal GCHQ mockup. I thought that was worthy of discussion and
exploration, but then John accused me of faking the data
<https://twitter.com/Cryptomeorg/status/651777707873837056>.


> *Juan* juan.g71 at gmail.com
>
> <juan.g71%40gmail.com?Subject=Re%3A%20Cryptome%20has%20been%20leaking%20its%20user%20logs%20for%20over%20a%20year&In-Reply-To=%3C56166710.4237370a.4285d.552d%40mx.google.com%3E>*Thu
> Oct 8 08:58:03 EDT 2015*
> On Wed, 7 Oct 2015 17:26:51 -0400
> Michael Best <themikebest at gmail.com> wrote: >* In summary, I showed that
> the information on the slide could have *>* been mocked up, depsite
> matching the logs for Cryptome.org. * Supposing it was true that you
> proved that *maybe* the
> slide isn't authentic, what then? Are you trying to make a more general
> point? Amd that point
> is...?
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From Rayzer at riseup.net  Thu Oct  8 09:02:31 2015
From: Rayzer at riseup.net (Razer)
Date: Thu, 8 Oct 2015 09:02:31 -0700
Subject: Cryptome has been leaking its user logs for over a year
In-Reply-To: <56165105.3010007@pilobilus.net>
References: <CANFTA0-4ZDCq-QMAj=KeT7i00OUvBWCZ2VM32HHsnzMiUhkMeg@mail.gmail.com>
 <56165105.3010007@pilobilus.net>
Message-ID: <56169397.4090609@riseup.net>

Steve Kinney wrote the only thing I've read so far worth a damn.

YOU are responsible for YOUR OWN opsec, and global distribution has the
effect of precluding the kind of misuse feared... Unless of course you
have something to hide. In which case do like Osama, who disappeared off
SIGINT radar in 1998. Use paper, pencil, and trusted couriers.

They'll still get you if the want you bad enough.

What was it some old Bolsheveik or another said?

> "Revolutionaries are dead men on furlough."

RR


On 10/08/2015 04:18 AM, Steve Kinney wrote:
> The overall message I get from JYA's impressionistic essays on
> network security is that in his view there ain't no such animal.
> Add to this the well established security axiom across all
> contexts, "a trusted entity is one that can break your security
> model."  In the present context, trusting Cryptome to protect your
> privacy is a sucker bet:  Either you don't care, or your own OpSec
> is up to that task, or you are screwed.  This context makes the
> issue at hand an object lesson in stating the obvious.
>
> A rented, public facing, vendor configured and maintained web
> server instance appears to be 'leaking' its http logs to world +
> dog.  That would mean data that is supposed to be available only
> to a few dozen intelligence services, tech support guise and
> marketing departments is world readable.  A level playing field
> with equal access for all is worse than one where access is
> monopolized by a clusterfuck of privileged players why?
>
> :o)
>
>
>
>
>
>
>



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From guninski at guninski.com  Wed Oct  7 23:05:51 2015
From: guninski at guninski.com (Georgi Guninski)
Date: Thu, 8 Oct 2015 09:05:51 +0300
Subject: Cryptome has been leaking its user logs for over a year
In-Reply-To: <CANFTA0-4ZDCq-QMAj=KeT7i00OUvBWCZ2VM32HHsnzMiUhkMeg@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CANFTA0-4ZDCq-QMAj=KeT7i00OUvBWCZ2VM32HHsnzMiUhkMeg@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <20151008060551.GA2590@sivokote.iziade.m$>

John's replies appear weird to me.

Don't exclude the possibility the web server to be compromised (and
likely all John's boxen, he had some troubles with PGP keys) and someone
included the alleged logs on purpose.

Recently read leaked presentation that TLAs use such operations.




From guninski at guninski.com  Wed Oct  7 23:36:41 2015
From: guninski at guninski.com (Georgi Guninski)
Date: Thu, 8 Oct 2015 09:36:41 +0300
Subject: How to minimize one's damage in case the usa kicks the bucket?
In-Reply-To: <20151006062653.GA2545@sivokote.iziade.m$>
References: <20151005085119.GA2489@sivokote.iziade.m$>
 <CAOsGNSQ0mXaD_9DorvTG-ddyQiKtfEKpF1eKxYDgtXmAqV7t7g@mail.gmail.com>
 <56125C89.2000304@pilobilus.net> <56132B69.5040507@riseup.net>
 <20151006062653.GA2545@sivokote.iziade.m$>
Message-ID: <20151008063641.GB2590@sivokote.iziade.m$>

On Tue, Oct 06, 2015 at 09:26:53AM +0300, Georgi Guninski wrote:
> Are there marketing indications something is coming soon? Currency
> options, gold, silver?
>

http://www.wsj.com/articles/once-the-biggest-buyer-china-starts-dumping-u-s-government-debt-1444196065

====
Oct. 7, 2015 1:34 a.m. ET

Central banks around the world are selling U.S. government bonds at the
fastest pace on record, the most dramatic shift in the $12.8 trillion
Treasury market since the financial crisis.

Sales by China, Russia, Brazil and Taiwan are the latest sign of an
emerging-markets slowdown that is threatening to spill over into the
U.S. economy. Previously, all four were large purchasers of U.S. debt. 
====


AFAICT these 12.8T are just the top of the debt iceberg.




From tbiehn at gmail.com  Thu Oct  8 06:37:57 2015
From: tbiehn at gmail.com (Travis Biehn)
Date: Thu, 8 Oct 2015 09:37:57 -0400
Subject: Cryptome has been leaking its user logs for over a year
In-Reply-To: <20151008005912.170D46800F7@frontend2.nyi.internal>
References: <CANFTA0_qs+J0=e_VdpScA9m8e0-6d5jp4hR9HZu7Vy1-jQ=cZQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <20151008005912.170D46800F7@frontend2.nyi.internal>
Message-ID: <CAKtE3zczjbpfc+2avPCaA2LF5s69E1XHoZv-U7-QseAC=c3e6w@mail.gmail.com>

This is just a fake controversy.
Nobody cares & none of this matters.

-Travis

On Wed, Oct 7, 2015 at 8:59 PM, Shelley <shelley at misanthropia.org> wrote:

> On October 7, 2015 4:49:00 PM Michael Best <themikebest at gmail.com> wrote:
>
> John Young deleted my post to the Cryptome freelist (
>> http://www.freelists.org/list/cryptome
>> http://www.freelists.org/archive/cryptome/10-2015) rather than let the
>> readers look at the data and judge for themselves.
>>
>> Because transparency??
>>
>
>
> ...John?  It isn't in the archive, why?
>
> I respect you immensely, and I know you've told us multiple times not to
> trust anyone - including you.  I'd like to hear your side.  This
> potentially affects me, as I've been visiting Cryptome during the time
> period in question (and long before.)
>
> I'm just now going to look at the data.  Anxiously awaiting your input, JY.
>
> -Shelley
>
>
>


-- 
Twitter <https://twitter.com/tbiehn> | LinkedIn
<http://www.linkedin.com/in/travisbiehn> | GitHub <http://github.com/tbiehn>
| TravisBiehn.com <http://www.travisbiehn.com> | Google Plus
<https://plus.google.com/+TravisBiehn>
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From cathalgarvey at cathalgarvey.me  Thu Oct  8 01:51:24 2015
From: cathalgarvey at cathalgarvey.me (Cathal (Phone))
Date: Thu, 08 Oct 2015 09:51:24 +0100
Subject: Introduce randommess in keypress timings
In-Reply-To: <CAD2Ti29Mk51iKidxhnOg_CiYKH-9knqLXzxDUqYHnBkh8zCLuQ@mail.gmail.com>
References: <1343496924.1220914.1444162539833.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com>
 <561432CC.2070304@openmailbox.org> <20151007053710.GA2657@sivokote.iziade.m$>
 <5614BBC8.3090204@openmailbox.org> <20151007070846.GB2657@sivokote.iziade.m$>
 <5614D0FC.1070507@openmailbox.org> <20151007091209.GE2657@sivokote.iziade.m$>
 <CAKtE3zeFF-=iRLw4AHZZKhh3=Ky=yYKgob+7GZ18PU04Q5DpJQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAD2Ti29Mk51iKidxhnOg_CiYKH-9knqLXzxDUqYHnBkh8zCLuQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <4CE122DE-16E0-4F2F-A49C-064CD7E87BFF@cathalgarvey.me>

Arduinos can do HID these days, probably wouldn't be hard to hack up a little USB that MITMs your keyboard and relays keys to the computer with random delay. Advantage: less obvious even to someone who's totally compromised the machine, so you could use at web cafes and the like.

On 8 October 2015 08:02:01 IST, grarpamp <grarpamp at gmail.com> wrote:
>On Wed, Oct 7, 2015 at 9:25 AM, Travis Biehn <tbiehn at gmail.com> wrote:
>> Normalizing / randomizing is fine. Anonymity sticks out, hasn't
>learned to
>> blend in.
>>
>> Keyboard timing is way down the list gentlemans. If you want to avoid
>it,
>> get drunk every time you use a webapp.
>
>Agreed that booze etc is potential. As is participating in foreign
>native language
>or orthagonal idea forums to you... since mimicry will modify your
>standard self.
>But only to the extent you do not adopt standard alter self.
>Couple with kernel keyboard driver parameters and it would seem a win.

-- 
Sent from my Android device with K-9 Mail. Please excuse my brevity.
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From shelley at misanthropia.org  Thu Oct  8 09:53:56 2015
From: shelley at misanthropia.org (Shelley)
Date: Thu, 08 Oct 2015 09:53:56 -0700
Subject: The GCHQ Cryptome slide could be a mockup/disinfo
In-Reply-To: <15048527170.276e.4d489027c0c4d0c1b1ca03a1f48f1ffb@misanthropia.org>
References: <CANFTA0_rUNWVZ8jN=+=vPbQ2f+iTrRx6x1uZB+h61pKO56tXuw@mail.gmail.com>
 <20151008153729.GE2590@sivokote.iziade.m$>
Message-ID: <20151008165339.CCFE9C0001A@frontend1.nyi.internal>

On October 8, 2015 8:43:31 AM Georgi Guninski <guninski at guninski.com> wrote:

> On Fri, Oct 02, 2015 at 10:23:12PM -0400, Michael Best wrote:
> > A few days ago, a new Snowden slide
> > 
> <https://theintercept.com/2015/09/25/gchq-radio-porn-spies-track-web-users-online-identities/>
> > was
> > released that appeared to show that the GCHQ was monitoring Cryptome in
>
> Dude, are you calling Snowden liar?
>
> And did you found out that allegedly cryptome shipped their web logs on
> usbs to buyers AFTER you called Snowden liar?

Wow, what the hell is going on here?!

I'm replying to all of the posts made thus far on this topic; I'm sorry, 
but I don't have the time nor inclination to respond to them individually.

So John finally replies, but feels the need to call this guy an asshole.  
Why is that?  I don't know him, but going solely by his site and 
contributions to archive.org, he is a legitimate researcher.  He tried 
going through the usual steps before disclosure, just like the rest of us 
do.  Only brought it to the public for verification and analysis after the 
source refused to cooperate: just like the rest of us.  Problem?

There are no sacred cows.  There is only data, and whatever truth is borne 
out of it whether or not it's the answer we wish to see.  The scientific 
method and all, you know, that most of us hold dear.

Georgi, he didn't outright say Snowden was a liar.  He was calling into 
question the validity of a slide that Snowden may not have even seen, or 
may not have scrutinized.

Also, the journalists releasing the data have an open history of working 
with the feds before releasing info - how do we know they wouldn't possibly 
alter data under pressure?  A decade ago, no less than the venerable NYT 
sat on the warrantless wiretapping story for over a year!  They caved when 
Risen's book was about to be published.  That does not exactly inspire 
confidence.

But what if this (or any other claim, backed with evidence) *did* call into 
question the rest of the data attributed to the Snowden dumps?  Isn't the 
truth more important than holding up false ideals?  Religion and politics 
have the lock on that brand of cognitive dissonance, they don't need our help.

Snowden is not infallible.
Cryptome/JY are not infallible.
Hell, even Ellsberg isn't infallible (as we were recently reminded.)

Best is not infallible, but I haven't seen him claim to be so.  Don't judge 
the messenger; look at the data and draw your own conclusions, the way we 
do with everything else.

This isn't a false controversy, Travis.  And some of us do care.

-Shelley





From juan.g71 at gmail.com  Thu Oct  8 05:58:03 2015
From: juan.g71 at gmail.com (Juan)
Date: Thu, 8 Oct 2015 09:58:03 -0300
Subject: Cryptome has been leaking its user logs for over a year
In-Reply-To: <CANFTA0-4ZDCq-QMAj=KeT7i00OUvBWCZ2VM32HHsnzMiUhkMeg@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CANFTA0-4ZDCq-QMAj=KeT7i00OUvBWCZ2VM32HHsnzMiUhkMeg@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <56166710.4237370a.4285d.552d@mx.google.com>

On Wed, 7 Oct 2015 17:26:51 -0400
Michael Best <themikebest at gmail.com> wrote:


> In summary, I showed that the information on the slide could have
> been mocked up, depsite matching the logs for Cryptome.org. 


	Supposing it was true that you proved that *maybe* the
	slide isn't authentic, what then?

	Are you trying to make a more general point? Amd that point
	is...?

	



> Cryptome
> has denied the accuracy of my data, while oddly accusing me of
> stealing the data, and leaves me with no alternatives to posting the
> data online for others to review and verify.
> 
> The data came from Cryptome itself, on a pair of USBs they mailed to
> me <https://archive.org/details/cryptome-archive>
> https://archive.org/details/cryptome-archive. Within those USBs were
> server logs that include user IPs (spanning several
> months), .htaccess files, and a pwd file. After finding the data in
> the USB Cryptome had just sent me, I sent an email attempting to
> verify it hadn't been included as something extra that was not for
> public distrubition:
> 




From guninski at guninski.com  Thu Oct  8 00:12:20 2015
From: guninski at guninski.com (Georgi Guninski)
Date: Thu, 8 Oct 2015 10:12:20 +0300
Subject: How to buy a root CA certificate?
Message-ID: <20151008071220.GC2590@sivokote.iziade.m$>

Interested in how much money is necessary to buy CA cert chaining up to
a trusted root and besides money is something else necessary.

globalsign advertise this:
https://www.globalsign.com/en/certificate-authority-root-signing/
=====
GlobalSign’s Trusted Root Signing service allows suitably qualified
organizations to capitalize on their investments in PKI or CA software
to issue digital certificates which chain up to GlobalSign’s publicly
trusted Root Certificate.
=====




From drwho at virtadpt.net  Thu Oct  8 10:55:55 2015
From: drwho at virtadpt.net (The Doctor)
Date: Thu, 8 Oct 2015 10:55:55 -0700
Subject: The GCHQ Cryptome slide could be a mockup/disinfo
In-Reply-To: <56169777.4070508@pilobilus.net>
References: <CANFTA0_rUNWVZ8jN=+=vPbQ2f+iTrRx6x1uZB+h61pKO56tXuw@mail.gmail.com>
 <20151008153729.GE2590@sivokote.iziade.m$>
 <CANFTA0-ioNMwLJszTVcCvj_G2fWf5i5i8GrLWwAjw-+iFgis8g@mail.gmail.com>
 <56169777.4070508@pilobilus.net>
Message-ID: <20151008105555.1d465ca5740cdc1320df4474@virtadpt.net>

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA512

On Thu, 8 Oct 2015 12:19:03 -0400
Steve Kinney <admin at pilobilus.net> wrote:

> I think we have arrived at a "feeding the trolls" state here...

Or every COINTELPRO programme on the planet in one big, sloppy group hug, with the sensible beings standing on the sidelines watching and chuckling to themselves while their code compiles.

- -- 
The Doctor [412/724/301/703/415] [ZS]

PGP: 0x807B17C1 / 7960 1CDC 85C9 0B63 8D9F  DD89 3BD8 FF2B 807B 17C1
WWW: https://drwho.virtadpt.net/

"Hell hath no fury like a LISP fan scorned." --Aaron Swartz

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----

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DZgPvbj4pB0JsblL3CbKwsB1RM2MtAVMgxEt1c0QMvAxSpHWbvj1zQQK790GjVfn
tlDSySGDDBUdTeypPx1nn0p+/z+LdL14+6Skx59C7Jwdp0/CE0ocj+M/2j39OSXs
suR94MUI4tSc/OHO7ynLzO66WBbED8UZrQX0tzc6viRpPc0DxcdV8wLKD/loDXnS
HmUzZnJR860tcUqHAASa9PDjTYtRT3jiCzqlYW3Un/oRe6UDlqbNp1AyrulLFRX9
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M29J7kHTc1l4A3EKvKEl/arZpPjskh17WjKnUoBw4mh0m3cphesISP6EdFvMl8Jt
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ILoVbDSO/KsK43R4Evu5
=jy0O
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----




From drwho at virtadpt.net  Thu Oct  8 10:58:24 2015
From: drwho at virtadpt.net (The Doctor)
Date: Thu, 8 Oct 2015 10:58:24 -0700
Subject: The GCHQ Cryptome slide could be a mockup/disinfo
In-Reply-To: <20151008165339.CCFE9C0001A@frontend1.nyi.internal>
References: <CANFTA0_rUNWVZ8jN=+=vPbQ2f+iTrRx6x1uZB+h61pKO56tXuw@mail.gmail.com>
 <20151008153729.GE2590@sivokote.iziade.m$>
 <20151008165339.CCFE9C0001A@frontend1.nyi.internal>
Message-ID: <20151008105824.badf12c7552870001624480d@virtadpt.net>

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA512

On Thu, 08 Oct 2015 09:53:56 -0700
Shelley <shelley at misanthropia.org> wrote:

> There are no sacred cows.  There is only data, and whatever truth is borne 
> out of it whether or not it's the answer we wish to see.  The scientific 
> method and all, you know, that most of us hold dear.

This is the Internet!  You can't say something reasonable!  J'accuse!

<grin>

> Snowden is not infallible.
> Cryptome/JY are not infallible.
> Hell, even Ellsberg isn't infallible (as we were recently reminded.)

This.  So much this.

- -- 
The Doctor [412/724/301/703/415] [ZS]

PGP: 0x807B17C1 / 7960 1CDC 85C9 0B63 8D9F  DD89 3BD8 FF2B 807B 17C1
WWW: https://drwho.virtadpt.net/

"Hell hath no fury like a LISP fan scorned." --Aaron Swartz

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----

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l7OOxfMqN3YEC5tP0P4qhbv2EFWXMHJqAA2n8LlbIF9BjZmNE4m/et2FX5oZ66dr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=UWKL
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----




From guninski at guninski.com  Thu Oct  8 01:09:20 2015
From: guninski at guninski.com (Georgi Guninski)
Date: Thu, 8 Oct 2015 11:09:20 +0300
Subject: Cryptome has been leaking its user logs for over a year
In-Reply-To: <CANFTA0-4ZDCq-QMAj=KeT7i00OUvBWCZ2VM32HHsnzMiUhkMeg@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CANFTA0-4ZDCq-QMAj=KeT7i00OUvBWCZ2VM32HHsnzMiUhkMeg@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <20151008080920.GD2590@sivokote.iziade.m$>

Does this makes sense?:

web.archive.org have incomplete(?) archive of cryptome.org.
Their robots.txt allows certain UA.
Spider it and compare with USB archive (not sure spidering is trivial
because of JS).

Compare with cmp(1) (or something equivalent) and in case
of difference check as many hashes as possible.




From Rayzer at riseup.net  Thu Oct  8 11:10:12 2015
From: Rayzer at riseup.net (Razer)
Date: Thu, 8 Oct 2015 11:10:12 -0700
Subject: President Vladimir Putin Tells USA Journalist How The USA Is
 Supporting ISIS.
In-Reply-To: <CAOsGNSSJZ=eoyt047R60Cjq5LC4zYhwYXbxMZAYPbBvj_F=Euw@mail.gmail.com>
References: <3AF7A9F2AFFC4883AC51F63973C1F0C2@atii>
 <CAOsGNSSJZ=eoyt047R60Cjq5LC4zYhwYXbxMZAYPbBvj_F=Euw@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <5616B184.9030906@riseup.net>


From: Zenaan Harkness <zen at freedbms.net> to Cypherpunks with a forged
header (?)

To: Jim <jim.sovereign at optusnet.com.au>

(Or maybe something's broken somewhere... see bottom for full header)


The Russians play chess. Americans play poker.

US Foreign policy doesn't stand a chance in the "Great Game", which is
much more like chess.

RR

On 10/08/2015 06:00 AM, Zenaan Harkness wrote:
> Putin is nothing if not consistent - great to see :)
> Z
>
>
> On 10/8/15, Jim <jim.sovereign at optusnet.com.au> wrote:
>> ----- Original Message -----
>> From: Kenneth Barrett
>> To: undisclosed-recipients:
>> Sent: Thursday, October 08, 2015 3:57 AM
>> Subject: President Vladimir Putin Tells USA Journalist How The USA Is
>> Supporting ISIS.
>>
>>
>> TUESDAY, OCTOBER 6, 2015
>> President Vladimir Putin Tells USA Journalist How The USA Is Supporting
>> ISIS
>>
>> UPDATED OCTOBER 3, 2015
>>
>> In a press conference at the Valdai Discussion Club 2014 in answer to a
>> question to a United States Journalist, President Vladimir Putin addressed
>> his concerns regarding the US and their role in the middle east and ISIS.
>> Although the film footage of the press conference has been banned, Live
>> leaks released a copy of the press conference to the public. The words of
>> Putin are transcribed below word for word from the video originally provided
>> by  Inessa S.
>>
>> The press and mainstream news has been avoiding this information. It is a
>> scathing , diplomatic account of Russia’s position on the politic behavior
>> and actions in the middle east regarding Syria and ISIS, as well as a
>> reprimand to our press who have failed to do their job.
>>
>> Putin’s complete oration to the US Journalists:
>>
>> First point. I never said that I view the US as a threat to our national
>> security. President Obama, as you said, views Russia as a threat, but I
>> don’t feel the same way about the US. What I do feel is that the politics of
>> those in the circles of power, if I may use those terms, the politics of
>> those in power is erroneous. It not only contradicts our national interests,
>> it undermines any trust we had in the United States. And in that way it
>> actually harms the United states as well.
>>
>> Undermined trust, with the understanding that they are one of the global
>> leaders in politics and in matters of the economy.
>>
>> I can stay silent on many things, but as I always say, and Dominic here has
>> mentioned it, “one sided actions” in the continuous search for the next
>> “alliance” and coalitions which are predetermined – this is not a method
>> that seeks to discus and agree on mutual grounds of understanding. These are
>> one sided actions. They are carried out all the time. They lead to crises.
>>
>> I’ve said this before, another threat that President Obama mentioned was
>> ISIS. Well who on earth armed them? Who armed the Syrians that were fighting
>> with Assad? Who created the necessary political information and climate that
>> facilitated this situation?
>>
>> Who pushed for the delivery of arms to the area? Do you really not
>> understand who is fighting in Syria?
>>
>> They are mercenaries mostly. Do you understand they are paid money?
>> Mercenaries fight for which ever side pays more. So they arm them and pay
>> them a certain amount. I even know what these amounts are. So they fight.
>> They have the arms. You can’t get them to return the weapons of course, at
>> the end.
>>
>> Then they discover elsewhere pays a little more…so they go fight there. Then
>> they occupy the oil fields.
>>
>> Where ever in Iraq, Syria, they start extracting the oil and this oil is
>> purchased by somebody. Where are the sanctions on the parties purchasing
>> this oil?
>>
>> Do you believe the US does not know who is buying it? Is it not their allies
>> that are buying oil from Isis? Do you not think the US has the power to
>> influence their allies? Or is the point that they indeed do not wish to
>> influence them?
>>
>> Then why bomb ISIS? In areas they started extracting oil and paying
>> mercenaries more in theose areas the rebels from “civilized” Syrian
>> opposition forces immediately join ISIS, because they pay more. I consider
>> this absolutely unprofessional politics. It is not grounded on facts, in the
>> real world.
>>
>> We must support civilized, democratic opposition in Syria. So you support,
>> arm them, and then tomorrow they join ISIS. Can they not think a step ahead?
>> We don’t stand for this kind of politics of the US. We consider it to be
>> wrong. It harms all parties, including you (USA).
>>
>> When it comes to the consideration of our national interests I would really
>> like it if people like you (US journalists) who posed the questions, would
>> one day head your government. Maybe then we can somehow reverse the
>> situation.
>>
>> If that doesn’t happen, I will at least ask you to deliver my messages to
>> your government. To the President of the United States, the Vice President,
>> and all other relevant people. Tell them that we do not want or look for any
>> confrontation whatsoever. When you start to consider our national interests
>> in your actions, any other disagreements we may have they will
>> self-regulate. This needs to be done, not just talked about. You must
>> consider the interests of others, and you must respect other people.
>>
>> You cannot “squeeze” others having considered only the benefits that you
>> require from whatever… in economies, in your military activities, in
>> everything. Look at Iraq the situation is terrible. Look at Libya and what
>> you did there, that got your ambassador murdered.
>>
>> Was it us that did this?
>>
>> You even had a security council decision to establish a no fly zone. What
>> for? It was so that Gaddafi’s air force couldn’t fly over and bomb the
>> rebels. This wasn’t the smartest decision, but okay… what did you proceed to
>> do yourselves? You started bombing the territory. This is in clear
>> contravention of the security council resolution. It is even outright
>> aggression over a state. Was it us that did this? You did this with your
>> bare hands.
>>
>> And it ended with the murder of your Ambassador. Who’s fault is it? It is
>> your fault. Is it a good result that your Ambassador was murdered? It is
>> actually a terrible catastrophe.
>>
>> But do not look around for somebody to blame when it is you making these
>> mistakes. You must do the opposite; rise above the endless desire to
>> dominate. You must stop acting out of imperialistic ambitions. Do not poison
>> the consciousness of millions of people like there can be no other way but
>> imperialistic politics.
>>
>> We will never forget our relationship when we supported the US in the war of
>> independence (civil war). We will never forget that we collaborated in both
>> world wars as allies. I personally believe that the geo strategic interests
>> of Russia and the US are essentially the same. We must focus on this
>> interrelationship.
>>
>> Written by Dianne Marshall
>>
>> The following video was translated by Inessa S .  A grateful thank you to
>> Inessa S. for all her effort to get this news out to the people.
>>
>> https://jhaines6a.wordpress.com/2015/10/06/putin-exposes-obamas-paid-isis-mercenaries-in-middle-east-and-syria/
>> Posted by enerchi at 10/06/2015 08:09:00 PM  Reactions:
>>
>> Labels: Government Corruption, New World Order, World News Headlines

Email header:

From shelley at misanthropia.org  Thu Oct  8 11:10:51 2015
From: shelley at misanthropia.org (Shelley)
Date: Thu, 08 Oct 2015 11:10:51 -0700
Subject: The GCHQ Cryptome slide could be a mockup/disinfo
In-Reply-To: <CAKtE3zeBzNRbzxyE-AiTVLZ18gxCrkg8iQv7wH8Cg=ipDdyaiw@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CANFTA0_rUNWVZ8jN=+=vPbQ2f+iTrRx6x1uZB+h61pKO56tXuw@mail.gmail.com>
 <20151008153729.GE2590@sivokote.iziade.m$>
 <20151008165339.CCFE9C0001A@frontend1.nyi.internal>
 <E1ZkExF-0004kD-V8@elasmtp-spurfowl.atl.sa.earthlink.net>
 <CAKtE3zeBzNRbzxyE-AiTVLZ18gxCrkg8iQv7wH8Cg=ipDdyaiw@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <20151008181035.C70BCC00018@frontend1.nyi.internal>

On October 8, 2015 10:44:02 AM Travis Biehn <tbiehn at gmail.com> wrote:

> Who cares about these personalities and their websites? Who cares if JYA is
> jerk/whacko/nerd/wizard mage?
> You should assume he is an attacker, just like everyone else.
>
> Getting caught up in this he-said-she-said is totally, ultimately, absurdly
> pointless.
>
> Who cares about cryptome keeping server logs? If you're worried about
> showing up in logs then you ought to be using TAILS. JYAs logs are just
> less accurate copies of what the TLAs, his hosting provider, their upstream
> peers, the guys on the lower floor at the PX & the memory scrapers
> implanted on his server already keep.
>
> -Travis

You're right about the privacy aspect, but still missing the entire point.

I don't care about showing up in server logs, although my personal security 
practices are much different now than they were six years ago.  I may have 
spotted my own information in the data, and I might be able to prove it 
(the Palm Pre is in a box 'o bits & crap somewhere.)

The bigger picture is not why Cryptome appears to be distributing old log 
files, but validity of the GHCQ slide in question.  That's why all the data 
is being put up for scrutiny, and we are losing sight of the importance of 
it with all the noise.

Doesn't matter if JY is a fed asset.  Doesn't matter if Best is a troll 
with a personal vendetta against JY/Cryptome (neither of which I believe to 
be true, but still.)

A slide was presented as being part of the Snowden dump.  A researcher has 
shown that with these log files, anyone could have made this slide.  This 
is a Big Fucking Deal with possibly numerous implications about a much 
larger dataset.

Forget about who is saying what and just look at the data and draw your own 
conclusions.  We are better than this.

-Shelley
>
> On Thu, Oct 8, 2015 at 1:28 PM, John Young <jya at pipeline.com> wrote:
>
> > Mike Best should keep digging, hardly scratched the surface of yards
> > way too fenced by secrecy.
> >
> >
> >
> >
>
>
> --
> Twitter <https://twitter.com/tbiehn> | LinkedIn
> <http://www.linkedin.com/in/travisbiehn> | GitHub <http://github.com/tbiehn>
> | TravisBiehn.com <http://www.travisbiehn.com> | Google Plus
> <https://plus.google.com/+TravisBiehn>





From Rayzer at riseup.net  Thu Oct  8 11:12:18 2015
From: Rayzer at riseup.net (Razer)
Date: Thu, 8 Oct 2015 11:12:18 -0700
Subject: Cryptome has been leaking its user logs for over a year
In-Reply-To: <56165105.3010007@pilobilus.net>
References: <CANFTA0-4ZDCq-QMAj=KeT7i00OUvBWCZ2VM32HHsnzMiUhkMeg@mail.gmail.com>
 <56165105.3010007@pilobilus.net>
Message-ID: <5616B202.3050403@riseup.net>

Resend of something I posted @9:02 AM. I think riseup was having
problems at the time. Sorry if this is a dupe

Steve Kinney wrote the only thing I've read so far worth a damn.

YOU are responsible for YOUR OWN opsec, and global distribution has the
effect of precluding the kind of misuse feared... Unless of course you
have something to hide. In which case do like Osama, who disappeared off
SIGINT radar in 1998. Use paper, pencil, and trusted couriers.

They'll still get you if the want you bad enough.

What was it some old Bolsheveik or another said?

> "Revolutionaries are dead men on furlough."

RR


On 10/08/2015 04:18 AM, Steve Kinney wrote:
> The overall message I get from JYA's impressionistic essays on
> network security is that in his view there ain't no such animal.
> Add to this the well established security axiom across all
> contexts, "a trusted entity is one that can break your security
> model."  In the present context, trusting Cryptome to protect your
> privacy is a sucker bet:  Either you don't care, or your own OpSec
> is up to that task, or you are screwed.  This context makes the
> issue at hand an object lesson in stating the obvious.
>
> A rented, public facing, vendor configured and maintained web
> server instance appears to be 'leaking' its http logs to world +
> dog.  That would mean data that is supposed to be available only
> to a few dozen intelligence services, tech support guise and
> marketing departments is world readable.  A level playing field
> with equal access for all is worse than one where access is
> monopolized by a clusterfuck of privileged players why?
>
> :o)
>
>
>
>
>
>
>





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From themikebest at gmail.com  Thu Oct  8 08:51:08 2015
From: themikebest at gmail.com (Michael Best)
Date: Thu, 8 Oct 2015 11:51:08 -0400
Subject: The GCHQ Cryptome slide could be a mockup/disinfo
In-Reply-To: <20151008153729.GE2590@sivokote.iziade.m$>
References: <CANFTA0_rUNWVZ8jN=+=vPbQ2f+iTrRx6x1uZB+h61pKO56tXuw@mail.gmail.com>
 <20151008153729.GE2590@sivokote.iziade.m$>
Message-ID: <CANFTA0-ioNMwLJszTVcCvj_G2fWf5i5i8GrLWwAjw-+iFgis8g@mail.gmail.com>

I found the logs on the USB before I posted about the GCHQ slide, that's
how I found the info. I verified that the data was also in coderman's
torrent from over a year ago. John rebuffed my initial inquiry and refused
to verify that the IPs I provided visited Cryptome at the times listed, and
then accused me of faking the data. So I released it for others to look at
themselves.

As far as calling Snowden a liar, as I said in note #4 of the GCHQ post...

If the slide is a mockup, it could be an internal mockup produced by GCHQ,
> a deliberate piece of disinformation from within or without GCHQ, a
> document altered by Snowden, his friends/"friends" in Russia, or anyone
> else in the chain of custody. *Given that Snowden didn't review all of
> the documents he handed over, he might not recognize if one had been
> altered, embellished, forged, or taken out of context prior to publication.*
> Or it could be genuine - proving that something could be a fake isn't quite
> the same as proving it's a fake.


Italics added.

On Thu, Oct 8, 2015 at 11:37 AM, Georgi Guninski <guninski at guninski.com>
wrote:

> On Fri, Oct 02, 2015 at 10:23:12PM -0400, Michael Best wrote:
> > A few days ago, a new Snowden slide
> > <
> https://theintercept.com/2015/09/25/gchq-radio-porn-spies-track-web-users-online-identities/
> >
> > was
> > released that appeared to show that the GCHQ was monitoring Cryptome in
>
> Dude, are you calling Snowden liar?
>
> And did you found out that allegedly cryptome shipped their web logs on
> usbs to buyers AFTER you called Snowden liar?
>
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From admin at pilobilus.net  Thu Oct  8 09:19:03 2015
From: admin at pilobilus.net (Steve Kinney)
Date: Thu, 8 Oct 2015 12:19:03 -0400
Subject: The GCHQ Cryptome slide could be a mockup/disinfo
In-Reply-To: <CANFTA0-ioNMwLJszTVcCvj_G2fWf5i5i8GrLWwAjw-+iFgis8g@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CANFTA0_rUNWVZ8jN=+=vPbQ2f+iTrRx6x1uZB+h61pKO56tXuw@mail.gmail.com>
 <20151008153729.GE2590@sivokote.iziade.m$>
 <CANFTA0-ioNMwLJszTVcCvj_G2fWf5i5i8GrLWwAjw-+iFgis8g@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <56169777.4070508@pilobilus.net>

I think we have arrived at a "feeding the trolls" state here...




From bogus@does.not.exist.com  Thu Oct  8 06:00:06 2015
From: bogus@does.not.exist.com ()
Date: Thu, 8 Oct 2015 13:00:06 +0000
Subject: No subject
In-Reply-To: <3AF7A9F2AFFC4883AC51F63973C1F0C2@atii>
References: <3AF7A9F2AFFC4883AC51F63973C1F0C2@atii>
Message-ID: <CAOsGNSSJZ=3Deoyt047R60Cjq5LC4zYhwYXbxMZAYPbBvj_F=3DEuw@mail=

=2Egmail.com>
Subject: Re: President Vladimir Putin Tells USA Journalist How The USA Is=

 Supporting ISIS.
From: Zenaan Harkness <zen at freedbms.net>
To: Jim <jim.sovereign at optusnet.com.au>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=3DUTF-8
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit
X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by antiproton.jfet.or=
g id
 t98D0Cpb022898
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From Rayzer at riseup.net  Thu Oct  8 13:27:30 2015
From: Rayzer at riseup.net (Razer)
Date: Thu, 8 Oct 2015 13:27:30 -0700
Subject: juan's vision of free market WAS Snowden on the Twitters
In-Reply-To: <17404247.LqfjSl4M6U@lapuntu>
References: <20151004115158.GD2615@sivokote.iziade.m$>
 <1632779.EOsjtuZs0x@lapuntu> <56154DF5.90207@riseup.net>
 <17404247.LqfjSl4M6U@lapuntu>
Message-ID: <5616D1B2.2030207@riseup.net>

On 10/08/2015 09:15 AM, rysiek wrote:
> Dnia środa, 7 października 2015 09:53:09 Razer pisze:
>>> Ah, so the assumption is: "had there been no regulation, we would not get
>>> monopolies"?
>>>
>>> Am I getting that right?
>> Without regulation you OWN your OWN 'monopoly' in whatever you
>> accumulate and so does everyone else.
>>
>> The Hunts cornered the silver market in a REGULATED market, which, for
>> economic reasons better left to others to explain, cause the price of
>> silver to decline dramatically and then stabilize and stay at that level
>> for years .
>>
>> In a free market they'd just be sitting on a bunch of silver they
>> couldn't sell and anyone else with silver would go on trading with
>> others on a more equilateral basis.

> What if they *owned* all silver? For instance, by buying out all competition?

Unless it was something indispensable, they'd be sitting on something
worthless. That's why, until the industrial age, almost all wars were
over WATER rights., Not extractive resource rights (currently thinking
of DRC, pretty much the sole source for the tantalum for your
smartphone's touchy-feelie screen and micro-capacitors)

By extension, cornering the market in silver, or tantalum, or any
industrially-used extractive resource brings the industrial age one step
closer to extinction (snigger...)


>> Of course I'm making the assumption that really free markets can only
>> exist in fully decentralized societies that would eschew centralized
>> trading AND the middlemen necessary for it's operation.

> Can we assume that there was a time in the history of humankind (very, very 
> early on) when this was the case? Or is that assumption to strong?
>

Before nation-states and city states it was most likely THE way of life
for humans ... Until the industrial revolution it still existed in many
tribal-based hunter-gatherer and agrarian cultures.

Even today the Zapatistas have a slogan that spells out the cultural
mindset:

"Everything for everyone and nothing for ourselves"

Communities based on getting for oneself so one can 'give' to others is
sickness. In healthy cultures one works for the community so the fruits
of one's labor comes to all who participate.

W. Edward Deming knew that was the way things should work, and so does
every industrialist on the planet. But it doesn't maximize THEIR profit.

Admittedly, like databases, 'scaling' can be a bit of a problem.

RR


Ps. Elective watchings: A 13 minute exposition on How Class Works (101)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=euH3pAuLuko


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From jya at pipeline.com  Thu Oct  8 10:28:27 2015
From: jya at pipeline.com (John Young)
Date: Thu, 08 Oct 2015 13:28:27 -0400
Subject: The GCHQ Cryptome slide could be a mockup/disinfo
In-Reply-To: <20151008165339.CCFE9C0001A@frontend1.nyi.internal>
References: <CANFTA0_rUNWVZ8jN=+=vPbQ2f+iTrRx6x1uZB+h61pKO56tXuw@mail.gmail.com>
 <20151008153729.GE2590@sivokote.iziade.m$>
 <20151008165339.CCFE9C0001A@frontend1.nyi.internal>
Message-ID: <E1ZkExF-0004kD-V8@elasmtp-spurfowl.atl.sa.earthlink.net>

Mike Best should keep digging, hardly scratched the surface of yards
way too fenced by secrecy.






From Rayzer at riseup.net  Thu Oct  8 13:30:07 2015
From: Rayzer at riseup.net (Razer)
Date: Thu, 8 Oct 2015 13:30:07 -0700
Subject: Snowden on the Twitters
In-Reply-To: <1507291.HDmZjomMS0@lapuntu>
References: <CAD2Ti2-ZiZDAR_mLFAQqcgLVyyvrv2o2Kx3ri+jBK3o7aUF6QA@mail.gmail.com>
 <3482718.N20uJfZFAk@lapuntu> <56154F7B.4030805@riseup.net>
 <1507291.HDmZjomMS0@lapuntu>
Message-ID: <5616D24F.9050602@riseup.net>



On 10/08/2015 09:20 AM, rysiek wrote:
> But wait, if we *do* get a truly decentralized market with no middlemen, where 
> individuals do not have to cooperate with would-be middlemen, are you saying 
> that individuals would not at all co-operate with each other in order to 
> *become* middlement and shaft everybody else?

Show me the advantage over cooperating with others equilaterally.

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From tbiehn at gmail.com  Thu Oct  8 10:37:09 2015
From: tbiehn at gmail.com (Travis Biehn)
Date: Thu, 8 Oct 2015 13:37:09 -0400
Subject: The GCHQ Cryptome slide could be a mockup/disinfo
In-Reply-To: <E1ZkExF-0004kD-V8@elasmtp-spurfowl.atl.sa.earthlink.net>
References: <CANFTA0_rUNWVZ8jN=+=vPbQ2f+iTrRx6x1uZB+h61pKO56tXuw@mail.gmail.com>
 <20151008153729.GE2590@sivokote.iziade.m$>
 <20151008165339.CCFE9C0001A@frontend1.nyi.internal>
 <E1ZkExF-0004kD-V8@elasmtp-spurfowl.atl.sa.earthlink.net>
Message-ID: <CAKtE3zeBzNRbzxyE-AiTVLZ18gxCrkg8iQv7wH8Cg=ipDdyaiw@mail.gmail.com>

Who cares about these personalities and their websites? Who cares if JYA is
jerk/whacko/nerd/wizard mage?
You should assume he is an attacker, just like everyone else.

Getting caught up in this he-said-she-said is totally, ultimately, absurdly
pointless.

Who cares about cryptome keeping server logs? If you're worried about
showing up in logs then you ought to be using TAILS. JYAs logs are just
less accurate copies of what the TLAs, his hosting provider, their upstream
peers, the guys on the lower floor at the PX & the memory scrapers
implanted on his server already keep.

-Travis

On Thu, Oct 8, 2015 at 1:28 PM, John Young <jya at pipeline.com> wrote:

> Mike Best should keep digging, hardly scratched the surface of yards
> way too fenced by secrecy.
>
>
>
>


-- 
Twitter <https://twitter.com/tbiehn> | LinkedIn
<http://www.linkedin.com/in/travisbiehn> | GitHub <http://github.com/tbiehn>
| TravisBiehn.com <http://www.travisbiehn.com> | Google Plus
<https://plus.google.com/+TravisBiehn>
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From shelley at misanthropia.org  Thu Oct  8 13:58:23 2015
From: shelley at misanthropia.org (Shelley)
Date: Thu, 08 Oct 2015 13:58:23 -0700
Subject: The GCHQ Cryptome slide could be a mockup/disinfo
In-Reply-To: <CAKtE3zfRvLVhYsXa_WAELZWnvOApTc1gG1wxJPz6D-e4knJw0Q@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CANFTA0_rUNWVZ8jN=+=vPbQ2f+iTrRx6x1uZB+h61pKO56tXuw@mail.gmail.com>
 <20151008153729.GE2590@sivokote.iziade.m$>
 <20151008165339.CCFE9C0001A@frontend1.nyi.internal>
 <E1ZkExF-0004kD-V8@elasmtp-spurfowl.atl.sa.earthlink.net>
 <CAKtE3zeBzNRbzxyE-AiTVLZ18gxCrkg8iQv7wH8Cg=ipDdyaiw@mail.gmail.com>
 <20151008181035.C70BCC00018@frontend1.nyi.internal>
 <CAKtE3zfRvLVhYsXa_WAELZWnvOApTc1gG1wxJPz6D-e4knJw0Q@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <20151008205807.915C668013A@frontend2.nyi.internal>

On October 8, 2015 1:19:58 PM Travis Biehn <tbiehn at gmail.com> wrote:

[Snip]

> There's one message:
> Whatever is technically possible will happen. It will continue to happen,
> whether they be your government, someone else's government a corporation
> that handles your data or by criminals.
>
> Build systems that are secure from what is technically possible; not
> because you've deleted the logs - but because there is no data to grab.
>
> -Travis

On that much, we are in agreement.

 > I am amused by the theory that this is all an elaborate troll, in 10 years
> Snowden will declare he personally made it up in one epic last disclosure,
> with a dickbutt on the last slide.

Dickbutt, heh.  Snowden was probably a /b/tard too, would claim it was all 
for the epic lulz.

-Shelley



>
> On Thu, Oct 8, 2015 at 2:10 PM, Shelley <shelley at misanthropia.org> wrote:
>
> > On October 8, 2015 10:44:02 AM Travis Biehn <tbiehn at gmail.com> wrote:
> >
> > Who cares about these personalities and their websites? Who cares if JYA is
> >> jerk/whacko/nerd/wizard mage?
> >> You should assume he is an attacker, just like everyone else.
> >>
> >> Getting caught up in this he-said-she-said is totally, ultimately,
> >> absurdly
> >> pointless.
> >>
> >> Who cares about cryptome keeping server logs? If you're worried about
> >> showing up in logs then you ought to be using TAILS. JYAs logs are just
> >> less accurate copies of what the TLAs, his hosting provider, their
> >> upstream
> >> peers, the guys on the lower floor at the PX & the memory scrapers
> >> implanted on his server already keep.
> >>
> >> -Travis
> >>
> >
> > You're right about the privacy aspect, but still missing the entire point.
> >
> > I don't care about showing up in server logs, although my personal
> > security practices are much different now than they were six years ago.  I
> > may have spotted my own information in the data, and I might be able to
> > prove it (the Palm Pre is in a box 'o bits & crap somewhere.)
> >
> > The bigger picture is not why Cryptome appears to be distributing old log
> > files, but validity of the GHCQ slide in question.  That's why all the data
> > is being put up for scrutiny, and we are losing sight of the importance of
> > it with all the noise.
> >
> > Doesn't matter if JY is a fed asset.  Doesn't matter if Best is a troll
> > with a personal vendetta against JY/Cryptome (neither of which I believe to
> > be true, but still.)
> >
> > A slide was presented as being part of the Snowden dump.  A researcher has
> > shown that with these log files, anyone could have made this slide.  This
> > is a Big Fucking Deal with possibly numerous implications about a much
> > larger dataset.
> >
> > Forget about who is saying what and just look at the data and draw your
> > own conclusions.  We are better than this.
> >
> > -Shelley
> >
> >>
> >> On Thu, Oct 8, 2015 at 1:28 PM, John Young <jya at pipeline.com> wrote:
> >>
> >> > Mike Best should keep digging, hardly scratched the surface of yards
> >> > way too fenced by secrecy.
> >> >
> >> >
> >> >
> >> >
> >>
> >>
> >> --
> >> Twitter <https://twitter.com/tbiehn> | LinkedIn
> >> <http://www.linkedin.com/in/travisbiehn> | GitHub <
> >> http://github.com/tbiehn>
> >> | TravisBiehn.com <http://www.travisbiehn.com> | Google Plus
> >> <https://plus.google.com/+TravisBiehn>
> >>
> >
> >
> >
>
>
> --
> Twitter <https://twitter.com/tbiehn> | LinkedIn
> <http://www.linkedin.com/in/travisbiehn> | GitHub <http://github.com/tbiehn>
> | TravisBiehn.com <http://www.travisbiehn.com> | Google Plus
> <https://plus.google.com/+TravisBiehn>





From zen at freedbms.net  Thu Oct  8 06:58:25 2015
From: zen at freedbms.net (Zenaan Harkness)
Date: Thu, 8 Oct 2015 13:58:25 +0000
Subject: US: The World's Silliest Empire
Message-ID: <CAOsGNSSp2CFC_fEGP68uw4Jou=goq7t7sQobE7BKn93NNXQgRQ@mail.gmail.com>

A lighter side of the story - at least if you're not too precious
about "America's exceptional"ism.

It's impossible to disagree with the byline though, "It would be
humorous if people weren't dying because of it".

Regards
Z

http://russia-insider.com/en/politics/us-worlds-silliest-empire/ri10350




From Rayzer at riseup.net  Thu Oct  8 15:52:12 2015
From: Rayzer at riseup.net (Razer)
Date: Thu, 8 Oct 2015 15:52:12 -0700
Subject: Snowden on the Twitters
In-Reply-To: <CAOsGNSRB-nxtv_sc2664iSka491oCPdXajD5mN0NiarX3Et6FA@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAD2Ti2-ZiZDAR_mLFAQqcgLVyyvrv2o2Kx3ri+jBK3o7aUF6QA@mail.gmail.com>
 <3482718.N20uJfZFAk@lapuntu> <56154F7B.4030805@riseup.net>
 <1507291.HDmZjomMS0@lapuntu> <5616D24F.9050602@riseup.net>
 <5616de31.a8658c0a.306d9.ffffa5b7@mx.google.com>
 <CAOsGNSRB-nxtv_sc2664iSka491oCPdXajD5mN0NiarX3Et6FA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <5616F39C.3030100@riseup.net>



On 10/08/2015 03:01 PM, Zenaan Harkness wrote:
> "The market decides"

The market is, in the instance you used, a microscopic subset of
humanity. The 1 percent or typically less who buy armies and guns. OPEC
could never have existed without US and UK's naval demand for oil after
WWI (because of the higher BTUs available per load than coal) and the
strongmen those governments assisted to power to obtain the oil.

Read the first chapter of "End of Oil" by Paul Roberts. He manages to
give a history of the Middle East from the time the first barrel of oil
was shipped from a Saudi oil terminal in the mid 1910s to the invasion
of Iraq in a very concise manner.

RR

Ps. Norway and Venezuela are also members of OPEC, and are standing by
to shift the internal balance of the organization entirely to the West
if the illiterate "House of Saud" and it's perverted 'princes' are ever
driven from power by internal revolt or the nation destabilized to the
point where control of OPEC could be wrested away from them.

PNAC's peeps would LUV that.

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From Rayzer at riseup.net  Thu Oct  8 16:15:59 2015
From: Rayzer at riseup.net (Razer)
Date: Thu, 8 Oct 2015 16:15:59 -0700
Subject: Snowden on the Twitters
In-Reply-To: <CAOsGNSRB-nxtv_sc2664iSka491oCPdXajD5mN0NiarX3Et6FA@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAD2Ti2-ZiZDAR_mLFAQqcgLVyyvrv2o2Kx3ri+jBK3o7aUF6QA@mail.gmail.com>
 <3482718.N20uJfZFAk@lapuntu> <56154F7B.4030805@riseup.net>
 <1507291.HDmZjomMS0@lapuntu> <5616D24F.9050602@riseup.net>
 <5616de31.a8658c0a.306d9.ffffa5b7@mx.google.com>
 <CAOsGNSRB-nxtv_sc2664iSka491oCPdXajD5mN0NiarX3Et6FA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <5616F92F.6000400@riseup.net>

Addenda to my last missive...

On 10/08/2015 03:01 PM, Zenaan Harkness wrote:
> The Saudis (OPEC) halved the price of crude to target and eliminate
> the US shale oil producers. This 'price war' is not yet over.

Shale oil is a scam, was NEVER a threat to any oil supplying nation, and
it's time is over. Zero Hedge site follows the shale oil scam closely as
do others...

>
> This has also been called a market share war with OPEC, Russia and USA
> competing - the shale producers had caused USA to become an oil
> exporting nation for the first time in yonks (official term for 'quite
> a long time').
>
> OPEC recently invited Russia to join (they've been 'observer' for
> ages). Putin is holding onto his cards, not in any rush to make oil
> price fixing decisions right at this particular moment in time.

Russia has almost no oil but they have LOTS of Natural Gas left over
from those depleted fields. It lasts about 50 years past the time the
oil runs out according to oil geologists.

Again, read End of Oil by Paul Roberts. He devotes a whole chapter to
what's left of the Russian Oilfields and their natural gas.

RR

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From tbiehn at gmail.com  Thu Oct  8 13:19:36 2015
From: tbiehn at gmail.com (Travis Biehn)
Date: Thu, 8 Oct 2015 16:19:36 -0400
Subject: The GCHQ Cryptome slide could be a mockup/disinfo
In-Reply-To: <20151008181035.C70BCC00018@frontend1.nyi.internal>
References: <CANFTA0_rUNWVZ8jN=+=vPbQ2f+iTrRx6x1uZB+h61pKO56tXuw@mail.gmail.com>
 <20151008153729.GE2590@sivokote.iziade.m$>
 <20151008165339.CCFE9C0001A@frontend1.nyi.internal>
 <E1ZkExF-0004kD-V8@elasmtp-spurfowl.atl.sa.earthlink.net>
 <CAKtE3zeBzNRbzxyE-AiTVLZ18gxCrkg8iQv7wH8Cg=ipDdyaiw@mail.gmail.com>
 <20151008181035.C70BCC00018@frontend1.nyi.internal>
Message-ID: <CAKtE3zfRvLVhYsXa_WAELZWnvOApTc1gG1wxJPz6D-e4knJw0Q@mail.gmail.com>

It has no implications other than Mr. Best has too much time on his hands.
It is not a big deal in any way.

I don't think anyone's missing the point.
The mass of dumps are yet another datapoint that confirms the ethos, the
integrity of the slides, whether there are false flags, etc, doesn't matter
in the least. Did the GCHQ drink too much to evade KD fingerprinting while
writing the slides, and instead scraped together a photoshopped screenie?

I am amused by the theory that this is all an elaborate troll, in 10 years
Snowden will declare he personally made it up in one epic last disclosure,
with a dickbutt on the last slide.

There's one message:
Whatever is technically possible will happen. It will continue to happen,
whether they be your government, someone else's government a corporation
that handles your data or by criminals.

Build systems that are secure from what is technically possible; not
because you've deleted the logs - but because there is no data to grab.

-Travis

On Thu, Oct 8, 2015 at 2:10 PM, Shelley <shelley at misanthropia.org> wrote:

> On October 8, 2015 10:44:02 AM Travis Biehn <tbiehn at gmail.com> wrote:
>
> Who cares about these personalities and their websites? Who cares if JYA is
>> jerk/whacko/nerd/wizard mage?
>> You should assume he is an attacker, just like everyone else.
>>
>> Getting caught up in this he-said-she-said is totally, ultimately,
>> absurdly
>> pointless.
>>
>> Who cares about cryptome keeping server logs? If you're worried about
>> showing up in logs then you ought to be using TAILS. JYAs logs are just
>> less accurate copies of what the TLAs, his hosting provider, their
>> upstream
>> peers, the guys on the lower floor at the PX & the memory scrapers
>> implanted on his server already keep.
>>
>> -Travis
>>
>
> You're right about the privacy aspect, but still missing the entire point.
>
> I don't care about showing up in server logs, although my personal
> security practices are much different now than they were six years ago.  I
> may have spotted my own information in the data, and I might be able to
> prove it (the Palm Pre is in a box 'o bits & crap somewhere.)
>
> The bigger picture is not why Cryptome appears to be distributing old log
> files, but validity of the GHCQ slide in question.  That's why all the data
> is being put up for scrutiny, and we are losing sight of the importance of
> it with all the noise.
>
> Doesn't matter if JY is a fed asset.  Doesn't matter if Best is a troll
> with a personal vendetta against JY/Cryptome (neither of which I believe to
> be true, but still.)
>
> A slide was presented as being part of the Snowden dump.  A researcher has
> shown that with these log files, anyone could have made this slide.  This
> is a Big Fucking Deal with possibly numerous implications about a much
> larger dataset.
>
> Forget about who is saying what and just look at the data and draw your
> own conclusions.  We are better than this.
>
> -Shelley
>
>>
>> On Thu, Oct 8, 2015 at 1:28 PM, John Young <jya at pipeline.com> wrote:
>>
>> > Mike Best should keep digging, hardly scratched the surface of yards
>> > way too fenced by secrecy.
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>>
>>
>> --
>> Twitter <https://twitter.com/tbiehn> | LinkedIn
>> <http://www.linkedin.com/in/travisbiehn> | GitHub <
>> http://github.com/tbiehn>
>> | TravisBiehn.com <http://www.travisbiehn.com> | Google Plus
>> <https://plus.google.com/+TravisBiehn>
>>
>
>
>


-- 
Twitter <https://twitter.com/tbiehn> | LinkedIn
<http://www.linkedin.com/in/travisbiehn> | GitHub <http://github.com/tbiehn>
| TravisBiehn.com <http://www.travisbiehn.com> | Google Plus
<https://plus.google.com/+TravisBiehn>
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From oshwm at openmailbox.org  Thu Oct  8 08:22:06 2015
From: oshwm at openmailbox.org (oshwm)
Date: Thu, 08 Oct 2015 16:22:06 +0100
Subject: Introduce randommess in keypress timings
In-Reply-To: <1893255.VQLqDBsadc@lapuntu>
References: <1394632190.1340809.1444180572869.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com>
 <1840602720.226067.1444236529423.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com>
 <1893255.VQLqDBsadc@lapuntu>
Message-ID: <56168A1E.1000508@openmailbox.org>



On 08/10/15 15:51, rysiek wrote:
> Dnia środa, 7 października 2015 16:48:49 Michael Nelson pisze:
>> This is more technical than political, but may be of interest.
> 
> This has to be the best comment on the content of this list.
> 

Yep, lets of political stuff on this list but may I bring to your
attention sir...

Introduce Randomm[n]ess in Keypress timings
How to buy a root CA certificate
Cryptome has been leaking its user logs for over a year
Cyber Guerilla Warefare, OPSEC, etc...

These have been useful threads and are just a recent selection :)
But since when has privacy, anonymity and cryptography been devoid of
Politics.

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From wirelesswarrior at safe-mail.net  Thu Oct  8 13:40:09 2015
From: wirelesswarrior at safe-mail.net (wirelesswarrior at safe-mail.net)
Date: Thu, 8 Oct 2015 16:40:09 -0400
Subject: ParalelPolis, Hacker's Conference, 2015-10-04
Message-ID: <N1B-Oyf-VHw-qK@Safe-mail.net>

You can download a copy of my covert wireless slides I presented in Prague a few days ago (.pdf) at:

http://s000.tinyupload.com/index.php?file_id=03580328025747098705

It an update of the talk I gave at Defcon 23 with lots of corrections and additions (satellite hacking). 

WW




From rysiek at hackerspace.pl  Thu Oct  8 07:51:25 2015
From: rysiek at hackerspace.pl (rysiek)
Date: Thu, 08 Oct 2015 16:51:25 +0200
Subject: Introduce randommess in keypress timings
In-Reply-To: <1840602720.226067.1444236529423.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com>
References: <1394632190.1340809.1444180572869.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com>
 <1840602720.226067.1444236529423.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <1893255.VQLqDBsadc@lapuntu>

Dnia środa, 7 października 2015 16:48:49 Michael Nelson pisze:
> This is more technical than political, but may be of interest.

This has to be the best comment on the content of this list.

-- 
Pozdrawiam,
Michał "rysiek" Woźniak

Zmieniam klucz GPG :: http://rys.io/pl/147
GPG Key Transition :: http://rys.io/en/147
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From rysiek at hackerspace.pl  Thu Oct  8 09:10:28 2015
From: rysiek at hackerspace.pl (rysiek)
Date: Thu, 08 Oct 2015 18:10:28 +0200
Subject: Introduce randommess in keypress timings
In-Reply-To: <CAD2Ti29Mk51iKidxhnOg_CiYKH-9knqLXzxDUqYHnBkh8zCLuQ@mail.gmail.com>
References: <1343496924.1220914.1444162539833.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com>
 <CAKtE3zeFF-=iRLw4AHZZKhh3=Ky=yYKgob+7GZ18PU04Q5DpJQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAD2Ti29Mk51iKidxhnOg_CiYKH-9knqLXzxDUqYHnBkh8zCLuQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <6880507.sF5QKhCkob@lapuntu>

Dnia czwartek, 8 października 2015 03:02:01 grarpamp pisze:
> Agreed that booze etc is potential.

/thread

-- 
Pozdrawiam,
Michał "rysiek" Woźniak

Zmieniam klucz GPG :: http://rys.io/pl/147
GPG Key Transition :: http://rys.io/en/147
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From rysiek at hackerspace.pl  Thu Oct  8 09:15:59 2015
From: rysiek at hackerspace.pl (rysiek)
Date: Thu, 08 Oct 2015 18:15:59 +0200
Subject: juan's vision of free market WAS Snowden on the Twitters
In-Reply-To: <56154DF5.90207@riseup.net>
References: <20151004115158.GD2615@sivokote.iziade.m$>
 <1632779.EOsjtuZs0x@lapuntu> <56154DF5.90207@riseup.net>
Message-ID: <17404247.LqfjSl4M6U@lapuntu>

Dnia środa, 7 października 2015 09:53:09 Razer pisze:
> > Ah, so the assumption is: "had there been no regulation, we would not get
> > monopolies"?
> > 
> > Am I getting that right?
> 
> Without regulation you OWN your OWN 'monopoly' in whatever you
> accumulate and so does everyone else.
> 
> The Hunts cornered the silver market in a REGULATED market, which, for
> economic reasons better left to others to explain, cause the price of
> silver to decline dramatically and then stabilize and stay at that level
> for years .
> 
> In a free market they'd just be sitting on a bunch of silver they
> couldn't sell and anyone else with silver would go on trading with
> others on a more equilateral basis.

What if they *owned* all silver? For instance, by buying out all competition?

> Of course I'm making the assumption that really free markets can only
> exist in fully decentralized societies that would eschew centralized
> trading AND the middlemen necessary for it's operation.

Can we assume that there was a time in the history of humankind (very, very 
early on) when this was the case? Or is that assumption to strong?

-- 
Pozdrawiam,
Michał "rysiek" Woźniak

Zmieniam klucz GPG :: http://rys.io/pl/147
GPG Key Transition :: http://rys.io/en/147
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From rysiek at hackerspace.pl  Thu Oct  8 09:20:33 2015
From: rysiek at hackerspace.pl (rysiek)
Date: Thu, 08 Oct 2015 18:20:33 +0200
Subject: Snowden on the Twitters
In-Reply-To: <56154F7B.4030805@riseup.net>
References: <CAD2Ti2-ZiZDAR_mLFAQqcgLVyyvrv2o2Kx3ri+jBK3o7aUF6QA@mail.gmail.com>
 <3482718.N20uJfZFAk@lapuntu> <56154F7B.4030805@riseup.net>
Message-ID: <1507291.HDmZjomMS0@lapuntu>

Dnia środa, 7 października 2015 09:59:39 Razer pisze:
> On 10/06/2015 03:25 PM, rysiek wrote:
> > But then, I don't really understand. Help me out here. Where, then, are
> > the middlemen? How does your remove them?
> 
> See my just posted response to "Juan's Vision". The middleman OPERATES A
> CENTRALIZED MARKET they expect others to participate in. "Anarchist
> Economics 101" doesn't remove them. It points to the fact we don't NEED
> them. People that want to profit over other people need them, but
> individuals do not have to cooperate ... until the middlemen conspire
> with 'People that want to profit over other people" to hire people with
> guns to enforce their markets.

But wait, if we *do* get a truly decentralized market with no middlemen, where 
individuals do not have to cooperate with would-be middlemen, are you saying 
that individuals would not at all co-operate with each other in order to 
*become* middlement and shaft everybody else?

-- 
Pozdrawiam,
Michał "rysiek" Woźniak

Zmieniam klucz GPG :: http://rys.io/pl/147
GPG Key Transition :: http://rys.io/en/147
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From juan.g71 at gmail.com  Thu Oct  8 14:26:22 2015
From: juan.g71 at gmail.com (Juan)
Date: Thu, 8 Oct 2015 18:26:22 -0300
Subject: Snowden on the Twitters
In-Reply-To: <5616D24F.9050602@riseup.net>
References: <CAD2Ti2-ZiZDAR_mLFAQqcgLVyyvrv2o2Kx3ri+jBK3o7aUF6QA@mail.gmail.com>
 <3482718.N20uJfZFAk@lapuntu> <56154F7B.4030805@riseup.net>
 <1507291.HDmZjomMS0@lapuntu> <5616D24F.9050602@riseup.net>
Message-ID: <5616de31.a8658c0a.306d9.ffffa5b7@mx.google.com>

On Thu, 8 Oct 2015 13:30:07 -0700
Razer <Rayzer at riseup.net> wrote:

> 
> 
> On 10/08/2015 09:20 AM, rysiek wrote:
> > But wait, if we *do* get a truly decentralized market with no
> > middlemen, where individuals do not have to cooperate with would-be
> > middlemen, are you saying that individuals would not at all
> > co-operate with each other in order to *become* middlement and
> > shaft everybody else?
> 
> Show me the advantage over cooperating with others equilaterally.


	There's no inherent problem with middlemen. If they are not
	actually useful, then people won't hire them. And if their
	usefulness is debatable, then people who don't like middlemen
	don't have to hire them anyway.


	It's quite funny how statists whine about 'monopolies' in the
	free-market while trying to hide the fact that they are
	advocates of the only actual monopoly that matters : the state.
	Which, go figure, is the ARMED MONOPOLY that grants PRIVILEGES
	to its friends allowing them to get rid of the competition and
	abuse consumers...thus creating 'economic' monopolies.


	So what propagandists do is try to scare people  whith
	tales about how dangerous freedom is and how people starve if
	left alone - who will feed the children bla bla bla - and how
	their altruistic friends from the state and the 'NGOs' (the
	state) save everybody, and at no cost! 


	Isn't the state amazing rysiek? It provides endless benefits
	and, it is FREE. 


	https://stallman.org/articles/why-we-need-a-state.html
	
	"defending the nation" 

	Oops. Looks like the retard is both a left-wing AND a
	RIGHT-wing american fascist...








J.









From afalex169 at gmail.com  Thu Oct  8 08:33:16 2015
From: afalex169 at gmail.com (=?UTF-8?B?INCQ0LvQtdC60YHQsNC90LTRgCA=?=)
Date: Thu, 8 Oct 2015 18:33:16 +0300
Subject: US: The World's Silliest Empire
In-Reply-To: <CAOsGNSSp2CFC_fEGP68uw4Jou=goq7t7sQobE7BKn93NNXQgRQ@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAOsGNSSp2CFC_fEGP68uw4Jou=goq7t7sQobE7BKn93NNXQgRQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAEm6KbJ38kOd9GUjTgLGw2pZjEe37j0EXLV0oguTg4C_AYjVog@mail.gmail.com>

Good article, Zennan.
Thank you.

I liked it the most:

> Lying, when everybody knows that you are lying, and knows that you know
> that you are lying: what could possibly be sillier?
>

This is what I (and many other sane people) constantly see from the US,
especially after the 9/11. Brazen lies without end.
Putin was absolutely right, when he said at the United Nations, that "This
is *no longer* possible to tolerate!". Yes. NO longer!

And all of the US lies and aggressive behavior as a whole, we could just
label as silly... extremely *silly*, if it wouldn't kill so many people.
Аnd even entire countries. So no, this is not silly. These are *deliberate**
lies and slander*, for the sake of power and profit on someone else's grief.

​___

* As usually, I expect some trolling on this kind of post, like "the
bloooody Putin/evil Chinese etc.", going far, far away from the topic
discussed here. Because it's impossible to refute these and many other
facts.
Frankly, I see this kind of "technology" all the time. If one has got
nothing to say, he can always try *re-directing the subject​* (As if you do
it, then the black turns into white. A very *silly* behavior, using the
language of the article)​
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From guninski at guninski.com  Thu Oct  8 08:37:29 2015
From: guninski at guninski.com (Georgi Guninski)
Date: Thu, 8 Oct 2015 18:37:29 +0300
Subject: The GCHQ Cryptome slide could be a mockup/disinfo
In-Reply-To: <CANFTA0_rUNWVZ8jN=+=vPbQ2f+iTrRx6x1uZB+h61pKO56tXuw@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CANFTA0_rUNWVZ8jN=+=vPbQ2f+iTrRx6x1uZB+h61pKO56tXuw@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <20151008153729.GE2590@sivokote.iziade.m$>

On Fri, Oct 02, 2015 at 10:23:12PM -0400, Michael Best wrote:
> A few days ago, a new Snowden slide
> <https://theintercept.com/2015/09/25/gchq-radio-porn-spies-track-web-users-online-identities/>
> was
> released that appeared to show that the GCHQ was monitoring Cryptome in

Dude, are you calling Snowden liar?

And did you found out that allegedly cryptome shipped their web logs on
usbs to buyers AFTER you called Snowden liar?




From coderman at gmail.com  Thu Oct  8 18:42:07 2015
From: coderman at gmail.com (coderman)
Date: Thu, 8 Oct 2015 18:42:07 -0700
Subject: [cryptome] Cryptome has been leaking its user logs for over a year
In-Reply-To: <CANFTA0-4ZDCq-QMAj=KeT7i00OUvBWCZ2VM32HHsnzMiUhkMeg@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CANFTA0-4ZDCq-QMAj=KeT7i00OUvBWCZ2VM32HHsnzMiUhkMeg@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAJVRA1TAeEfByH4n=OUyBVQZJT+gBK4yENjjtTBwmxGN_wbH4A@mail.gmail.com>

On 10/7/15, Michael Best <themikebest at gmail.com> wrote:
> Let me begin by saying that Cryptome initially denied the leak, then that
> the data was stolen, then that the whole thing was a fake "a lie by [a]
> spy-newbie."

the lie is assuming these requests over plain-text were ever private :P



> Look at the data itself and examine the multiple sources, then
> decide for yourself.

i find that understanding data requires placing in the utmost context
of additional data, thus leading to a cycle of expanding corpora.

i understand if this discussion is a bit forward to have a public,
like some of your referrers. why did you install that toolbar? for
shame...



> It's important to note that the logs were not just found in the USBs John
> Young/Cryptome sent to me, but in the ones sent to "bandmon", who unless
> I'm mistaken is coderman at gmail.com

i'm not sure who bandmon is, but they're not coderman at gmail.com. i
would however be amenable to uploading a list of sha-256 digests to
verify components of similarity between the torrent and origin.



> https://thepiratebay.mn/torrent/11113511/Cryptome_archive_2014-06-02


> It was my strong preference **not** to post this, but since Cryptome has
> refused to validate the data, there is no other way to authenticate it than
> to release it to the public along with how to find that information in the
> Cryptome USBs/CDs and their various mirrors.

actually one may cross reference with their own requests and circuits,
for high confidence of legitimacy.

i find it apropos to now quote the original disclaimer in full:
'''
This is a trap, witting and unwitting.
  Do not use it or use at own risk.
  Source and this host is out to pwon and phuck you in complicity
   with global Internet authorities.
  ...
  Signed Batshit Cryptome and Host, 9 July 2014, 12:16ET."
   - cypherpunks/2014-July/005020.html, and true for FY-2014, too.
'''



best regards,




From nelson_mikel at yahoo.com  Thu Oct  8 11:48:21 2015
From: nelson_mikel at yahoo.com (Michael Nelson)
Date: Thu, 8 Oct 2015 18:48:21 +0000 (UTC)
Subject: Introduce randommess in keypress timings
References: <636897858.795946.1444330101517.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <636897858.795946.1444330101517.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com>

> Is there anything that tells us how many bits of entropy are found in the brainsong (rhythm, melody) of random users?

Five minutes of Swedish death metal should get you around 256 bits.

mn




From coderman at gmail.com  Thu Oct  8 18:50:25 2015
From: coderman at gmail.com (coderman)
Date: Thu, 8 Oct 2015 18:50:25 -0700
Subject: Cryptome has been leaking its user logs for over a year
In-Reply-To: <20151008060551.GA2590@sivokote.iziade.m$>
References: <CANFTA0-4ZDCq-QMAj=KeT7i00OUvBWCZ2VM32HHsnzMiUhkMeg@mail.gmail.com>
 <20151008060551.GA2590@sivokote.iziade.m$>
Message-ID: <CAJVRA1Szqkmi7LmB6oeuavMbJWSzPFxPwqOoWNXO3dtMaFTV5w@mail.gmail.com>

On 10/7/15, Georgi Guninski <guninski at guninski.com> wrote:
> John's replies appear weird to me.

i find that understanding of John's replies is best achieved through a
structured series of mind altering substances ingested, inhaled, or
transdermally diffused in linear symphony of chemical augmentation...

note that understanding is separate from Cryptome patron risk, however.


best regards,




From coderman at gmail.com  Thu Oct  8 18:54:21 2015
From: coderman at gmail.com (coderman)
Date: Thu, 8 Oct 2015 18:54:21 -0700
Subject: Cryptome has been leaking its user logs for over a year
In-Reply-To: <A919010B-5869-4769-8FA7-655338783A5B@cathalgarvey.me>
References: <CANFTA0-4ZDCq-QMAj=KeT7i00OUvBWCZ2VM32HHsnzMiUhkMeg@mail.gmail.com>
 <20151008060551.GA2590@sivokote.iziade.m$>
 <A919010B-5869-4769-8FA7-655338783A5B@cathalgarvey.me>
Message-ID: <CAJVRA1StfgDP-d7jGCWjTH8GcdgZML-Rg=v7i2OGNFMU2HDW8A@mail.gmail.com>

On 10/7/15, Cathal (Phone) <cathalgarvey at cathalgarvey.me> wrote:
> Everything John says is weird, and he's shown a wilful disregard for even
> the most basic forms of visitor security all along, from initially refusing
> SSL onwards. This is *entirely* in character for the caricature-JY I know
> through this list.

if this was slander and slight, i agree completely!

if meant to excuse the untoward behavior of one JYA, i vehemently disavow it.



>
> --
> Sent from my Android device with K-9 Mail. Please excuse my brevity.

aha! PAPA SMURF strikes again. i thought this empty chime was
un-characteristic of my good friend and long time pal "Cathal
(Phone)"; my suspicions justified in the utmost!


please bit bucket this thread in its entirety. there is no signal here!


best regards,




From coderman at gmail.com  Thu Oct  8 19:01:08 2015
From: coderman at gmail.com (coderman)
Date: Thu, 8 Oct 2015 19:01:08 -0700
Subject: Cryptome has been leaking its user logs for over a year
In-Reply-To: <56161089.6070907@openmailbox.org>
References: <CANFTA0-4ZDCq-QMAj=KeT7i00OUvBWCZ2VM32HHsnzMiUhkMeg@mail.gmail.com>
 <20151008060551.GA2590@sivokote.iziade.m$>
 <CAD2Ti2_UDNmhEjf1_+HDJxpg0COsVVsvL31o7JFkpRTZexnFyg@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAPyX2ndWDYhgi9hC=MgNiZ_BkHNmCtYDaLE-12Yoi007VZAQ5g@mail.gmail.com>
 <56161089.6070907@openmailbox.org>
Message-ID: <CAJVRA1So0GaimRe8=Q9ZHW+ZNkSpRXiT3E567PBQzF9j3M9JBw@mail.gmail.com>

On 10/7/15, oshwm <oshwm at openmailbox.org> wrote:
> ...
> Now, as part of total disclosure, this misses a valuable part of the
> process which is to publicise the audit and detailed issues found and
> fixed but DOES have an overall positive effect without too much
> grumbling and moaning.
>
> Of course, we could just slag JY off instead and expect a positive result?

one will sleuth a bit further to see managed security of the industry
standard best practiced variety at play here.

there is no Library inside SCIF!




From coderman at gmail.com  Thu Oct  8 19:15:49 2015
From: coderman at gmail.com (coderman)
Date: Thu, 8 Oct 2015 19:15:49 -0700
Subject: The challenge, should you accept it earth humans, is to ... [was:
 Snowden on the Twitters]
Message-ID: <CAJVRA1Rom_RhMjG6vuXJXCXoUP_vWNeq9F8gxvzK2SvyEw9K7Q@mail.gmail.com>

On 10/8/15, Razer <Rayzer at riseup.net> wrote:
>
> Show me the advantage over cooperating with others equilaterally.

universal cooperation is global optima -
 the trick is to pass from crude biological competitive roots
  into global egalitarianism through universal cooperation.

this is also known as solving the Fermi paradox,
  becoming the first species to pass through paradox proves it.

note that designing fully decentralized technology sufficient to
support this transition,
 regardless of the socio-economic difficulties retarding adoption of same,
  is sufficiently difficult as to be considered "impossible" by sane majorities.

---

good luck earth humans!

---

 "It's never been so easy for so many to injure and kill over so little..."




From coderman at gmail.com  Thu Oct  8 19:28:55 2015
From: coderman at gmail.com (coderman)
Date: Thu, 8 Oct 2015 19:28:55 -0700
Subject: The GCHQ Cryptome slide could be a mockup/disinfo
In-Reply-To: <CAKtE3zeBzNRbzxyE-AiTVLZ18gxCrkg8iQv7wH8Cg=ipDdyaiw@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CANFTA0_rUNWVZ8jN=+=vPbQ2f+iTrRx6x1uZB+h61pKO56tXuw@mail.gmail.com>
 <20151008153729.GE2590@sivokote.iziade.m$>
 <20151008165339.CCFE9C0001A@frontend1.nyi.internal>
 <E1ZkExF-0004kD-V8@elasmtp-spurfowl.atl.sa.earthlink.net>
 <CAKtE3zeBzNRbzxyE-AiTVLZ18gxCrkg8iQv7wH8Cg=ipDdyaiw@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAJVRA1Qf4L6WCLqtsVgX4NyPLYrdTT0_xbxjEHFZMQ5XZtS5bg@mail.gmail.com>

On 10/8/15, Travis Biehn <tbiehn at gmail.com> wrote:
> Who cares about these personalities and their websites? Who cares if JYA is
> jerk/whacko/nerd/wizard mage?
> You should assume he is an attacker, just like everyone else.
>
> Getting caught up in this he-said-she-said is totally, ultimately, absurdly
> pointless.

i find this reply un-characteristic of the Travis Biehn who is a
legitimate researcher and cares deeply about the integrity of the
Cryptome.org webserver and the logs which are generated by clients
making HTTP requests of it over plain-text.

given the KINKY SMURF'ing going on in the other threads, i think it is
safe to say this sentiment is <FALSEHOOD CLASSIFICATION LABEL EXPANDED
HERE>.



> Who cares about cryptome keeping server logs? If you're worried about
> showing up in logs then you ought to be using TAILS.

the real Travis Biehn rolls his own Whonix Qubes respin with Address
Sanitizer enabled userspace, and would recommend nothing less to
others!

tbiehn at gmail.com has been JTRIG'ed :o


best regards,




From juan.g71 at gmail.com  Thu Oct  8 16:40:16 2015
From: juan.g71 at gmail.com (Juan)
Date: Thu, 8 Oct 2015 20:40:16 -0300
Subject: Snowden on the Twitters
In-Reply-To: <CAOsGNSRB-nxtv_sc2664iSka491oCPdXajD5mN0NiarX3Et6FA@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAD2Ti2-ZiZDAR_mLFAQqcgLVyyvrv2o2Kx3ri+jBK3o7aUF6QA@mail.gmail.com>
 <3482718.N20uJfZFAk@lapuntu> <56154F7B.4030805@riseup.net>
 <1507291.HDmZjomMS0@lapuntu> <5616D24F.9050602@riseup.net>
 <5616de31.a8658c0a.306d9.ffffa5b7@mx.google.com>
 <CAOsGNSRB-nxtv_sc2664iSka491oCPdXajD5mN0NiarX3Et6FA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <5616fd93.56c6370a.aabd8.ffff9cf3@mx.google.com>

On Thu, 8 Oct 2015 22:01:29 +0000
Zenaan Harkness <zen at freedbms.net> wrote:

> 
> OPEC recently invited Russia to join (they've been 'observer' for
> ages). Putin is holding onto his cards, not in any rush to make oil
> price fixing decisions right at this particular moment in time.
> 
> This all looks like factional wars, rather than 'free' market.


	Exactly. And the western side is composed of very big and
	corrupt business that sometimes quarrel with their eastern
	(states) partners in crime. 



> I agree that the state is the primary creator of monopolies even if
> the state sometimes handles the problem of monopolies.
> 
> Example state created monopolies:
> - copyright
> - trademarks
> - patents
> - licenses
> - ripping up functional train and tram networks to help boost the car
> industry


	and they 'help' the car mafia even to this day

	http://www.reuters.com/article/2014/04/30/us-autos-gm-treasury-idUSBREA3T0MR20140430


	(not that railways companies originally operated in a
	free-market either...)


> 
> Example types of licenses (you can't do this unless you're licensed,
> only so many licenses are handed out, or the licenses are unduly
> expensive thereby locking out small players):
> - manufacturing
> - operating
> - usage
> - service/repair
> 

	Exactly.


> The question is, what's to stop OPEC like cartels in all industries?


	Well, OPEC doesn't even pretend to be a 'private' cartel. OPEC's
	members are all states/governments. 


> Perhaps it doesn't matter - if bullies get too strong, the market for
> assassins would presumably grow, to handle the bullies, and shit,
> perhaps at some point we might even see humans being nice to each
> other.

	Criminal organizations - the government - can always use
	violence and extortion to rule. That doesn't change the fact
	that a free society is a voluntary organization, by definition.
	That a government is a criminal organization, by defintion. And
	that historically the government is the prime accomplice of the
	'entrepreneurs' they pretend to 'regulate' for the 'common
	good' 

	From the horse's mouth 

	http://www.nytimes.com/2010/11/17/opinion/17buffett.html

> 
> 
> > 	So what propagandists do is try to scare people  whith
> > 	tales about how dangerous freedom is and how people starve
> > if left alone - who will feed the children bla bla bla - and how
> > 	their altruistic friends from the state and the 'NGOs' (the
> > 	state) save everybody, and at no cost!
> >
> > 	Isn't the state amazing rysiek? It provides endless benefits
> > 	and, it is FREE.
> >
> > 	https://stallman.org/articles/why-we-need-a-state.html
> > 	
> > 	"defending the nation"
> >
> > 	Oops. Looks like the retard is both a left-wing AND a
> > 	RIGHT-wing american fascist...
> 
> Thanks to the Greeks and their dang black and white stones, we have
> quite a long history of "democracy", and so most people might, just
> might, be a little fearful of the unknown - in this case market
> freedom.
> 
> Might be RMS has never properly researched (or understood) political
> anarchy - he takes a few days to reply, but he generally answers a
> polite and direct question.
 
> I have found RMS to be consistently forthright, including when he does
> not know something - he's so direct that unedumacated folk have often
> said he is rude, not realising that directness is so far from rude
> it's not funny.


	I wrote to him a couple of weeks ago. Stallman has come to
	argentina to promote his software projects more than a few
	times. 

	He's even come to rosario (where i live), and he's been rather
	friendly towards the worthless sacks of shit known as the
	'socialist party' that has been ruling the city for more than
	15 years, and among other things raised taxes ~ 2000%.
	
	https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZI_GiVEVZ4c

	^^^^^^ stallman with his socialist friends of the city's
	government. 


	(there was another video that I cant find now in which he was
	literally embracing the fucking mayor of rosario)

	
	Now the reason why that is relevant and why I wrote to stallman
	is that his socialist friends have been installing SPY CAMERAS
	all over the fucking city. Oh, the socialist party also
	controls the state government and the police. 


	Yep. It's not  'evil corp' doing the surveillance. It's the
	state that stallman loves so much, and a state controlled by
	fucking commies like him, to boot.

	Do you think stallman showed a shred on intellectual honesty
	and acknowledged that he supports these shitbags because they
	allegedly use his 'free' software, while turning a blind eye to
	the fact that they are totalitarians who favor a police state?
	Of course he didn't. 

	
	I also remarked to him :  

	"One of your arguments for free software is that users
	have the right to control their own computers. 'Freedom' means
	you and your hardware are not being controlled by other people.
	And yet you are no anarchist. I find that really puzzling. " 
	

	Here's stallamns, recursive, content-free, hypocritical reply 

	
	"See stallman.org/articles/why-we-need-a-state.html for why we
	need a state. Who should control your computers, and my computers, is a different
	question." 
	



J.
> 
> Regards
> Z




From mirimir at riseup.net  Thu Oct  8 19:45:50 2015
From: mirimir at riseup.net (Mirimir)
Date: Thu, 8 Oct 2015 20:45:50 -0600
Subject: [cryptome] Cryptome has been leaking its user logs for over a year
In-Reply-To: <CAJVRA1TAeEfByH4n=OUyBVQZJT+gBK4yENjjtTBwmxGN_wbH4A@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CANFTA0-4ZDCq-QMAj=KeT7i00OUvBWCZ2VM32HHsnzMiUhkMeg@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAJVRA1TAeEfByH4n=OUyBVQZJT+gBK4yENjjtTBwmxGN_wbH4A@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <56172A5E.6060907@riseup.net>

On 10/08/2015 07:42 PM, coderman wrote:
> On 10/7/15, Michael Best <themikebest at gmail.com> wrote:
>> Let me begin by saying that Cryptome initially denied the leak, then that
>> the data was stolen, then that the whole thing was a fake "a lie by [a]
>> spy-newbie."
> 
> the lie is assuming these requests over plain-text were ever private :P

That is the key point!

And anyway, all traffic to all websites is public.

>> Look at the data itself and examine the multiple sources, then
>> decide for yourself.
> 
> i find that understanding data requires placing in the utmost context
> of additional data, thus leading to a cycle of expanding corpora.
> 
> i understand if this discussion is a bit forward to have a public,
> like some of your referrers. why did you install that toolbar? for
> shame...
> 
> 
> 
>> It's important to note that the logs were not just found in the USBs John
>> Young/Cryptome sent to me, but in the ones sent to "bandmon", who unless
>> I'm mistaken is coderman at gmail.com
> 
> i'm not sure who bandmon is, but they're not coderman at gmail.com. i
> would however be amenable to uploading a list of sha-256 digests to
> verify components of similarity between the torrent and origin.
> 
> 
> 
>> https://thepiratebay.mn/torrent/11113511/Cryptome_archive_2014-06-02
> 
> 
>> It was my strong preference **not** to post this, but since Cryptome has
>> refused to validate the data, there is no other way to authenticate it than
>> to release it to the public along with how to find that information in the
>> Cryptome USBs/CDs and their various mirrors.
> 
> actually one may cross reference with their own requests and circuits,
> for high confidence of legitimacy.
> 
> i find it apropos to now quote the original disclaimer in full:
> '''
> This is a trap, witting and unwitting.
>   Do not use it or use at own risk.
>   Source and this host is out to pwon and phuck you in complicity
>    with global Internet authorities.
>   ...
>   Signed Batshit Cryptome and Host, 9 July 2014, 12:16ET."
>    - cypherpunks/2014-July/005020.html, and true for FY-2014, too.
> '''
> 
> 
> 
> best regards,
> 




From juan.g71 at gmail.com  Thu Oct  8 16:52:21 2015
From: juan.g71 at gmail.com (Juan)
Date: Thu, 8 Oct 2015 20:52:21 -0300
Subject: Snowden on the Twitters
In-Reply-To: <CAMyHXXcL_87fiiQ01k3sm=7NsNiR91FYt_84ex3ck=QUS8B7BQ@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAD2Ti2-ZiZDAR_mLFAQqcgLVyyvrv2o2Kx3ri+jBK3o7aUF6QA@mail.gmail.com>
 <3482718.N20uJfZFAk@lapuntu> <56154F7B.4030805@riseup.net>
 <1507291.HDmZjomMS0@lapuntu> <5616D24F.9050602@riseup.net>
 <5616de31.a8658c0a.306d9.ffffa5b7@mx.google.com>
 <CAOsGNSRB-nxtv_sc2664iSka491oCPdXajD5mN0NiarX3Et6FA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAMyHXXcL_87fiiQ01k3sm=7NsNiR91FYt_84ex3ck=QUS8B7BQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <5617006d.86848c0a.55517.ffffb6e1@mx.google.com>

On Thu, 8 Oct 2015 23:31:01 +0000
Steven Schear <schear.steve at gmail.com> wrote:


> 
> "An armed society is a polite society"


	LMAO! Like the US cesspool eh. 


> -- Robert Heinlien




From zen at freedbms.net  Thu Oct  8 15:01:29 2015
From: zen at freedbms.net (Zenaan Harkness)
Date: Thu, 8 Oct 2015 22:01:29 +0000
Subject: Snowden on the Twitters
In-Reply-To: <5616de31.a8658c0a.306d9.ffffa5b7@mx.google.com>
References: <CAD2Ti2-ZiZDAR_mLFAQqcgLVyyvrv2o2Kx3ri+jBK3o7aUF6QA@mail.gmail.com>
 <3482718.N20uJfZFAk@lapuntu> <56154F7B.4030805@riseup.net>
 <1507291.HDmZjomMS0@lapuntu> <5616D24F.9050602@riseup.net>
 <5616de31.a8658c0a.306d9.ffffa5b7@mx.google.com>
Message-ID: <CAOsGNSRB-nxtv_sc2664iSka491oCPdXajD5mN0NiarX3Et6FA@mail.gmail.com>

On 10/8/15, Juan <juan.g71 at gmail.com> wrote:
> On Thu, 8 Oct 2015 13:30:07 -0700
> Razer <Rayzer at riseup.net> wrote:
>> On 10/08/2015 09:20 AM, rysiek wrote:
>> > But wait, if we *do* get a truly decentralized market with no
>> > middlemen, where individuals do not have to cooperate with would-be
>> > middlemen, are you saying that individuals would not at all
>> > co-operate with each other in order to *become* middlement and
>> > shaft everybody else?

I.e. (I think is your question) "what's to stop cartels"?

OPEC, an international (unregulated) price fixing cartel gets created,
i.e. they turned themselves into middle men, consumers get shafted
since price gets maximised as a result.


>> Show me the advantage over cooperating with others equilaterally.

"The market decides" - oil over $100/barrel, and shale oil became
profitable. The price did not come down, but we could also say shale
oil producers had yet to get going.

The Saudis (OPEC) halved the price of crude to target and eliminate
the US shale oil producers. This 'price war' is not yet over.

This has also been called a market share war with OPEC, Russia and USA
competing - the shale producers had caused USA to become an oil
exporting nation for the first time in yonks (official term for 'quite
a long time').

OPEC recently invited Russia to join (they've been 'observer' for
ages). Putin is holding onto his cards, not in any rush to make oil
price fixing decisions right at this particular moment in time.

This all looks like factional wars, rather than 'free' market.


> 	There's no inherent problem with middlemen. If they are not
> 	actually useful, then people won't hire them. And if their
> 	usefulness is debatable, then people who don't like middlemen
> 	don't have to hire them anyway.

And if the (rigged) price goes high enough, this will encourage new
and more efficient players.

Then the incumbent(s) band together to destroy the newcomer(s).

Regulation -against- monopoly incumbents is sometimes then 'enforced'.


> 	It's quite funny how statists whine about 'monopolies' in the
> 	free-market while trying to hide the fact that they are
> 	advocates of the only actual monopoly that matters : the state.
> 	Which, go figure, is the ARMED MONOPOLY that grants PRIVILEGES
> 	to its friends allowing them to get rid of the competition and
> 	abuse consumers...thus creating 'economic' monopolies.

I agree that the state is the primary creator of monopolies even if
the state sometimes handles the problem of monopolies.

Example state created monopolies:
- copyright
- trademarks
- patents
- licenses
- ripping up functional train and tram networks to help boost the car industry

Example types of licenses (you can't do this unless you're licensed,
only so many licenses are handed out, or the licenses are unduly
expensive thereby locking out small players):
- manufacturing
- operating
- usage
- service/repair

The question is, what's to stop OPEC like cartels in all industries?
Perhaps it doesn't matter - if bullies get too strong, the market for
assassins would presumably grow, to handle the bullies, and shit,
perhaps at some point we might even see humans being nice to each
other.


> 	So what propagandists do is try to scare people  whith
> 	tales about how dangerous freedom is and how people starve if
> 	left alone - who will feed the children bla bla bla - and how
> 	their altruistic friends from the state and the 'NGOs' (the
> 	state) save everybody, and at no cost!
>
> 	Isn't the state amazing rysiek? It provides endless benefits
> 	and, it is FREE.
>
> 	https://stallman.org/articles/why-we-need-a-state.html
> 	
> 	"defending the nation"
>
> 	Oops. Looks like the retard is both a left-wing AND a
> 	RIGHT-wing american fascist...

Thanks to the Greeks and their dang black and white stones, we have
quite a long history of "democracy", and so most people might, just
might, be a little fearful of the unknown - in this case market
freedom.

Might be RMS has never properly researched (or understood) political
anarchy - he takes a few days to reply, but he generally answers a
polite and direct question.

I have found RMS to be consistently forthright, including when he does
not know something - he's so direct that unedumacated folk have often
said he is rude, not realising that directness is so far from rude
it's not funny.

Regards
Z




From schear.steve at gmail.com  Thu Oct  8 16:31:01 2015
From: schear.steve at gmail.com (Steven Schear)
Date: Thu, 8 Oct 2015 23:31:01 +0000
Subject: Snowden on the Twitters
In-Reply-To: <CAOsGNSRB-nxtv_sc2664iSka491oCPdXajD5mN0NiarX3Et6FA@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAD2Ti2-ZiZDAR_mLFAQqcgLVyyvrv2o2Kx3ri+jBK3o7aUF6QA@mail.gmail.com>
 <3482718.N20uJfZFAk@lapuntu> <56154F7B.4030805@riseup.net>
 <1507291.HDmZjomMS0@lapuntu> <5616D24F.9050602@riseup.net>
 <5616de31.a8658c0a.306d9.ffffa5b7@mx.google.com>
 <CAOsGNSRB-nxtv_sc2664iSka491oCPdXajD5mN0NiarX3Et6FA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAMyHXXcL_87fiiQ01k3sm=7NsNiR91FYt_84ex3ck=QUS8B7BQ@mail.gmail.com>

On Thu, Oct 8, 2015 at 10:01 PM, Zenaan Harkness <zen at freedbms.net> wrote:

>
>
> The question is, what's to stop OPEC like cartels in all industries?
> Perhaps it doesn't matter - if bullies get too strong, the market for
> assassins would presumably grow, to handle the bullies, and shit,
> perhaps at some point we might even see humans being nice to each
> other.
>

"An armed society is a polite society"
-- Robert Heinlien
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From juan.g71 at gmail.com  Thu Oct  8 20:22:26 2015
From: juan.g71 at gmail.com (Juan)
Date: Fri, 9 Oct 2015 00:22:26 -0300
Subject: Cryptome has been leaking its user logs for over a year
In-Reply-To: <CAJVRA1Szqkmi7LmB6oeuavMbJWSzPFxPwqOoWNXO3dtMaFTV5w@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CANFTA0-4ZDCq-QMAj=KeT7i00OUvBWCZ2VM32HHsnzMiUhkMeg@mail.gmail.com>
 <20151008060551.GA2590@sivokote.iziade.m$>
 <CAJVRA1Szqkmi7LmB6oeuavMbJWSzPFxPwqOoWNXO3dtMaFTV5w@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <561731d2.0c5b8c0a.eb9c4.ffffcf84@mx.google.com>

On Thu, 8 Oct 2015 18:50:25 -0700
coderman <coderman at gmail.com> wrote:

> On 10/7/15, Georgi Guninski <guninski at guninski.com> wrote:
> > John's replies appear weird to me.
> 
> i find that understanding of John's replies is best achieved through a
> structured series of mind altering substances ingested, inhaled, or
> transdermally diffused in linear symphony of chemical augmentation...


	Despite the barroque style, JY's points are quite to the point.

	"Cybersecurity" is bullshit. The bad guys and the
	majority(all?) of 'good' guys are scammers. It's all a big
	charade. And so on and so forth. 


	https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8r-e2NDSTuE




> 
> note that understanding is separate from Cryptome patron risk,
> however.
> 
> 
> best regards,




From juan.g71 at gmail.com  Thu Oct  8 20:54:56 2015
From: juan.g71 at gmail.com (Juan)
Date: Fri, 9 Oct 2015 00:54:56 -0300
Subject: Snowden on the Twitters
In-Reply-To: <CAOsGNSRvyq-tN27_3kf3Ry8k4+drvVua84jzjaUO+_2b8HZ=5w@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAD2Ti2-ZiZDAR_mLFAQqcgLVyyvrv2o2Kx3ri+jBK3o7aUF6QA@mail.gmail.com>
 <3482718.N20uJfZFAk@lapuntu> <56154F7B.4030805@riseup.net>
 <1507291.HDmZjomMS0@lapuntu> <5616D24F.9050602@riseup.net>
 <5616de31.a8658c0a.306d9.ffffa5b7@mx.google.com>
 <CAOsGNSRB-nxtv_sc2664iSka491oCPdXajD5mN0NiarX3Et6FA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAMyHXXcL_87fiiQ01k3sm=7NsNiR91FYt_84ex3ck=QUS8B7BQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <5617006d.86848c0a.55517.ffffb6e1@mx.google.com>
 <CAOsGNSRvyq-tN27_3kf3Ry8k4+drvVua84jzjaUO+_2b8HZ=5w@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <56173946.422b8c0a.b6cce.ffffd34e@mx.google.com>

On Fri, 9 Oct 2015 03:27:10 +0000
Zenaan Harkness <zen at freedbms.net> wrote:

> On 10/8/15, Juan <juan.g71 at gmail.com> wrote:
> > On Thu, 8 Oct 2015 23:31:01 +0000
> > Steven Schear <schear.steve at gmail.com> wrote:
> >> "An armed society is a polite society"
> >
> > 	LMAO! Like the US cesspool eh.
> 
> Despite their corrupt and unlawful government,
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pELwCqz2JfE.mp4



	https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cxHvHi-MdIM

general baxter: 

	 Look, if the slaves want guns, leave them be; 
	our supremacy doesn't depend on weaponry. 
	With schools, media,money and meds 
	we control every aspect of your lives through ideological
	hegemony. 

	But if you think you need guns to stop tyranny, then
	what are you waiting for? 
	We've already stripped you of your liberty, privacy, civil
	rights and dignity - you want some more?





> NUMBER ONE WITH A BULLET




From themikebest at gmail.com  Thu Oct  8 22:25:13 2015
From: themikebest at gmail.com (Michael Best)
Date: Fri, 9 Oct 2015 01:25:13 -0400
Subject: [cryptome] Cryptome has been leaking its user logs for over a year
Message-ID: <CANFTA0-cdkCMffk1v_cFjYEJ7sq3d=4_V+Vw0Ucgu-fN8ga0-A@mail.gmail.com>

Writing this at 01:23 AM, please forgive any typos or editing errors.

I'm updating the page to clarify that coderman is not bandmon. Thank you
for clarifying, coderman. The piratebay torrent is, I believe, made from
the zoinks torrent listed in places like
https://mailman.stanford.edu/pipermail/liberationtech/2014-September/014344.html

http://liberationtech.stanford.narkive.com/arhyVT9j/data-mine-the-snowden-files-was-open-the-snowden-files#post14
and
https://www.reddit.com/r/onions/comments/2afpmi/how_to_obtain_a_cryptome_archive_courtesy_coderman/

If that torrent isn't based on your release, with a hash of
F5763EB5C5FFD8B40B9047CF72350D320A59BDAC
<https://zoink.it/torrent/F5763EB5C5FFD8B40B9047CF72350D320A59BDAC.torrent>,
then it may be a different release from yours. If you can check that and
let me know, I'll update the post to make sure that it's accurate as far as
involving you. (If possible, please check for the files in your own copy of
the Cryptome archive. /USB-1.rar/Disk
2/07-Cryptome-org-13-0702-cartome-directory.zip/awstats)

Thanks for correcting my mistake, coderman - sorry for incorrectly assuming
that you were bandmon.

*coderman* coderman at gmail.com
<coderman%40gmail.com?Subject=Re%3A%20%5Bcryptome%5D%20Cryptome%20has%20been%20leaking%20its%20user%20logs%20for%20over%20a%20year&In-Reply-To=%3CCAJVRA1TAeEfByH4n%3DOUyBVQZJT%2BgBK4yENjjtTBwmxGN_wbH4A%40mail.gmail.com%3E>
*Thu Oct 8 21:42:07 EDT 2015*

>* It's important to note that the logs were not just found in the USBs
> John *>* Young/Cryptome sent to me, but in the ones sent to "bandmon",
> who unless *>* I'm mistaken is coderman at gmail.com <coderman at gmail.com> *
> i'm not sure who bandmon is, but they're not coderman at gmail.com. i
> would however be amenable to uploading a list of sha-256 digests to
> verify components of similarity between the torrent and origin. >*
> https://thepiratebay.mn/torrent/11113511/Cryptome_archive_2014-06-02
> <https://thepiratebay.mn/torrent/11113511/Cryptome_archive_2014-06-02> * >*
> It was my strong preference **not** to post this, but since Cryptome has *
> >* refused to validate the data, there is no other way to authenticate it
> than *>* to release it to the public along with how to find that
> information in the *>* Cryptome USBs/CDs and their various mirrors. *
> actually one may cross reference with their own requests and circuits,
> for high confidence of legitimacy. i find it apropos to now quote the
> original disclaimer in full:
> '''
> This is a trap, witting and unwitting.
> Do not use it or use at own risk.
> Source and this host is out to pwon and phuck you in complicity
> with global Internet authorities.
> ...
> Signed Batshit Cryptome and Host, 9 July 2014, 12:16ET."
> - cypherpunks/2014-July/005020.html, and true for FY-2014, too.
> ''' best regards,
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From themikebest at gmail.com  Thu Oct  8 22:48:44 2015
From: themikebest at gmail.com (Michael Best)
Date: Fri, 9 Oct 2015 01:48:44 -0400
Subject: [cryptome] Cryptome has been leaking its user logs for over a year
In-Reply-To: <CANFTA0-cdkCMffk1v_cFjYEJ7sq3d=4_V+Vw0Ucgu-fN8ga0-A@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CANFTA0-cdkCMffk1v_cFjYEJ7sq3d=4_V+Vw0Ucgu-fN8ga0-A@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CANFTA0-MRBiweFBBMLTWxhYyNRrFX09vJncUeru1wQb54_WByg@mail.gmail.com>

Text has been updated to reflect that bandmon is not coderman and that the
torrent is a re-upload. Sorry about that. I, and I'm sure many others,
would appreciate sha-256 hashes or something similar to help verify that
nothing was changed.

I also changed the website's entry from coderman[at]gmail.com to
coderman at xxxxxxxxx.

--Mike


> i'm not sure who bandmon is, but they're not coderman at xxxxxxxxx. i
> would however be amenable to uploading a list of sha-256 digests to
> verify components of similarity between the torrent and origin.


On Fri, Oct 9, 2015 at 1:25 AM, Michael Best <themikebest at gmail.com> wrote:

> Writing this at 01:23 AM, please forgive any typos or editing errors.
>
> I'm updating the page to clarify that coderman is not bandmon. Thank you
> for clarifying, coderman. The piratebay torrent is, I believe, made from
> the zoinks torrent listed in places like
>
> https://mailman.stanford.edu/pipermail/liberationtech/2014-September/014344.html
>
>
> http://liberationtech.stanford.narkive.com/arhyVT9j/data-mine-the-snowden-files-was-open-the-snowden-files#post14
> and
>
> https://www.reddit.com/r/onions/comments/2afpmi/how_to_obtain_a_cryptome_archive_courtesy_coderman/
>
> If that torrent isn't based on your release, with a hash of
> F5763EB5C5FFD8B40B9047CF72350D320A59BDAC
> <https://zoink.it/torrent/F5763EB5C5FFD8B40B9047CF72350D320A59BDAC.torrent>,
> then it may be a different release from yours. If you can check that and
> let me know, I'll update the post to make sure that it's accurate as far as
> involving you. (If possible, please check for the files in your own copy of
> the Cryptome archive. /USB-1.rar/Disk
> 2/07-Cryptome-org-13-0702-cartome-directory.zip/awstats)
>
> Thanks for correcting my mistake, coderman - sorry for incorrectly
> assuming that you were bandmon.
>
> *coderman* coderman at gmail.com
> <coderman%40gmail.com?Subject=Re%3A%20%5Bcryptome%5D%20Cryptome%20has%20been%20leaking%20its%20user%20logs%20for%20over%20a%20year&In-Reply-To=%3CCAJVRA1TAeEfByH4n%3DOUyBVQZJT%2BgBK4yENjjtTBwmxGN_wbH4A%40mail.gmail.com%3E>
> *Thu Oct 8 21:42:07 EDT 2015*
>
> >* It's important to note that the logs were not just found in the USBs
>> John *>* Young/Cryptome sent to me, but in the ones sent to "bandmon",
>> who unless *>* I'm mistaken is coderman at gmail.com <coderman at gmail.com> *
>> i'm not sure who bandmon is, but they're not coderman at gmail.com. i
>> would however be amenable to uploading a list of sha-256 digests to
>> verify components of similarity between the torrent and origin. >*
>> https://thepiratebay.mn/torrent/11113511/Cryptome_archive_2014-06-02
>> <https://thepiratebay.mn/torrent/11113511/Cryptome_archive_2014-06-02> *
>> >* It was my strong preference **not** to post this, but since Cryptome
>> has *>* refused to validate the data, there is no other way to
>> authenticate it than *>* to release it to the public along with how to
>> find that information in the *>* Cryptome USBs/CDs and their various
>> mirrors. * actually one may cross reference with their own requests and
>> circuits,
>> for high confidence of legitimacy. i find it apropos to now quote the
>> original disclaimer in full:
>> '''
>> This is a trap, witting and unwitting.
>> Do not use it or use at own risk.
>> Source and this host is out to pwon and phuck you in complicity
>> with global Internet authorities.
>> ...
>> Signed Batshit Cryptome and Host, 9 July 2014, 12:16ET."
>> - cypherpunks/2014-July/005020.html, and true for FY-2014, too.
>> ''' best regards,
>
>
>
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From themikebest at gmail.com  Thu Oct  8 23:43:16 2015
From: themikebest at gmail.com (Michael Best)
Date: Fri, 9 Oct 2015 02:43:16 -0400
Subject: [cryptome] Re: Cryptome has been leaking its user logs for over a year
Message-ID: <CANFTA09yirBRaHbQvGEoQ+Tunk=bSK1LU4x4PUgpeGsxOwSOxw@mail.gmail.com>

Done. If only the headache could be find-replaced as easily! ;)*From*:
Shelley <shelley at xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>

   - *To*: <cryptome at xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
   - *Date*: Thu, 08 Oct 2015 22:59:48 -0700

Mike,

While you're updating the post, you might want to change the urls to be all
lowercase (there are still DNS issues with caps; links aren't working.)
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From zen at freedbms.net  Thu Oct  8 20:27:10 2015
From: zen at freedbms.net (Zenaan Harkness)
Date: Fri, 9 Oct 2015 03:27:10 +0000
Subject: Snowden on the Twitters
In-Reply-To: <5617006d.86848c0a.55517.ffffb6e1@mx.google.com>
References: <CAD2Ti2-ZiZDAR_mLFAQqcgLVyyvrv2o2Kx3ri+jBK3o7aUF6QA@mail.gmail.com>
 <3482718.N20uJfZFAk@lapuntu> <56154F7B.4030805@riseup.net>
 <1507291.HDmZjomMS0@lapuntu> <5616D24F.9050602@riseup.net>
 <5616de31.a8658c0a.306d9.ffffa5b7@mx.google.com>
 <CAOsGNSRB-nxtv_sc2664iSka491oCPdXajD5mN0NiarX3Et6FA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAMyHXXcL_87fiiQ01k3sm=7NsNiR91FYt_84ex3ck=QUS8B7BQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <5617006d.86848c0a.55517.ffffb6e1@mx.google.com>
Message-ID: <CAOsGNSRvyq-tN27_3kf3Ry8k4+drvVua84jzjaUO+_2b8HZ=5w@mail.gmail.com>

On 10/8/15, Juan <juan.g71 at gmail.com> wrote:
> On Thu, 8 Oct 2015 23:31:01 +0000
> Steven Schear <schear.steve at gmail.com> wrote:
>> "An armed society is a polite society"
>
> 	LMAO! Like the US cesspool eh.

Despite their corrupt and unlawful government,
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pELwCqz2JfE.mp4
NUMBER ONE WITH A BULLET




From zen at freedbms.net  Thu Oct  8 21:03:39 2015
From: zen at freedbms.net (Zenaan Harkness)
Date: Fri, 9 Oct 2015 04:03:39 +0000
Subject: Comedy gold (well, may be bronze if we look hard...) - Russia to
 invade Turkey
Message-ID: <CAOsGNSQ3FPdUHC4ELX6mK_H5Ch+QRDpqfaYw8mG0LA4Gsnn0cw@mail.gmail.com>

http://russia-insider.com/en/media-criticism/ukrainian-tv-russian-military-bases-crimea-and-syria-will-be-used-invade-turkey
"Ukrainian TV: Russian Military Bases in Crimea and Syria Will Be Used
to Invade Turkey, Obviously"

Straight faces now... this is serious news reporting in Ukraine.

HEY! You in the back row, STOP CHUCKLING!!




From zen at freedbms.net  Thu Oct  8 21:17:15 2015
From: zen at freedbms.net (Zenaan Harkness)
Date: Fri, 9 Oct 2015 04:17:15 +0000
Subject: Snowden on the Twitters
In-Reply-To: <56173946.422b8c0a.b6cce.ffffd34e@mx.google.com>
References: <CAD2Ti2-ZiZDAR_mLFAQqcgLVyyvrv2o2Kx3ri+jBK3o7aUF6QA@mail.gmail.com>
 <3482718.N20uJfZFAk@lapuntu> <56154F7B.4030805@riseup.net>
 <1507291.HDmZjomMS0@lapuntu> <5616D24F.9050602@riseup.net>
 <5616de31.a8658c0a.306d9.ffffa5b7@mx.google.com>
 <CAOsGNSRB-nxtv_sc2664iSka491oCPdXajD5mN0NiarX3Et6FA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAMyHXXcL_87fiiQ01k3sm=7NsNiR91FYt_84ex3ck=QUS8B7BQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <5617006d.86848c0a.55517.ffffb6e1@mx.google.com>
 <CAOsGNSRvyq-tN27_3kf3Ry8k4+drvVua84jzjaUO+_2b8HZ=5w@mail.gmail.com>
 <56173946.422b8c0a.b6cce.ffffd34e@mx.google.com>
Message-ID: <CAOsGNSSoHHU3cOCuVbF3kVd675KzORb_cXJUYCvwohRgKoHcBA@mail.gmail.com>

On 10/9/15, Juan <juan.g71 at gmail.com> wrote:
> On Fri, 9 Oct 2015 03:27:10 +0000
> Zenaan Harkness <zen at freedbms.net> wrote:
>
>> On 10/8/15, Juan <juan.g71 at gmail.com> wrote:
>> > On Thu, 8 Oct 2015 23:31:01 +0000
>> > Steven Schear <schear.steve at gmail.com> wrote:
>> >> "An armed society is a polite society"
>> >
>> > 	LMAO! Like the US cesspool eh.
>>
>> Despite their corrupt and unlawful government,
>> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pELwCqz2JfE.mp4
>
>
>
> 	https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cxHvHi-MdIM
>
> general baxter:
>
> 	 Look, if the slaves want guns, leave them be;
> 	our supremacy doesn't depend on weaponry.
> 	With schools, media,money and meds
> 	we control every aspect of your lives through ideological
> 	hegemony.
>
> 	But if you think you need guns to stop tyranny, then
> 	what are you waiting for?
> 	We've already stripped you of your liberty, privacy, civil
> 	rights and dignity - you want some more?

F*n hell, Juan, do you have to keep reminding us how bloody bad things are?!

Well ok, I wouldn't have it any other way... but like, shit, I dunno
if you noticed, but like, mate, it's really really bad!!
<runs for depression meds>




From zen at freedbms.net  Thu Oct  8 22:13:29 2015
From: zen at freedbms.net (Zenaan Harkness)
Date: Fri, 9 Oct 2015 05:13:29 +0000
Subject: A Short History of US Bombing of Civilian Facilities
Message-ID: <CAOsGNSTJ_d5_Gg_SSTVVkB8A8GsLR+ZxjFm6_t3DP9_XGq0_kg@mail.gmail.com>

The USA has some serious chickens coming home to roost...

http://russia-insider.com/en/politics/short-history-us-bombing-civilian-facilities/ri10340

Just one of many examples, and all of the examples only since 1991:

"Red Cross complex, Kabul, Afghanistan (October 16 and October 26, 2001)

At the beginning of the U.S-led invasion of Afghanistan, the U.S.
attacked the complex housing the International Committee of the Red
Cross in Kabul. In an attempt to prevent such incidents in the future,
the U.S. conducted detailed discussions with the Red Cross about the
location of all of its installations in the country. Then the U.S.
bombed the same complex again. The second attack destroyed warehouses
containing tons of food and supplies for refugees. “Whoever is
responsible will have to come to Geneva for a formal explanation,”
said a Red Cross spokesperson. “Firing, shooting, bombing, a warehouse
clearly marked with the Red Cross emblem is a very serious incident. …
Now we’ve got 55,000 people without that food or blankets, with
nothing at all.”
"




From schear.steve at gmail.com  Thu Oct  8 22:15:41 2015
From: schear.steve at gmail.com (Steven Schear)
Date: Fri, 9 Oct 2015 05:15:41 +0000
Subject: Snowden on the Twitters
In-Reply-To: <56173946.422b8c0a.b6cce.ffffd34e@mx.google.com>
References: <CAD2Ti2-ZiZDAR_mLFAQqcgLVyyvrv2o2Kx3ri+jBK3o7aUF6QA@mail.gmail.com>
 <3482718.N20uJfZFAk@lapuntu> <56154F7B.4030805@riseup.net>
 <1507291.HDmZjomMS0@lapuntu> <5616D24F.9050602@riseup.net>
 <5616de31.a8658c0a.306d9.ffffa5b7@mx.google.com>
 <CAOsGNSRB-nxtv_sc2664iSka491oCPdXajD5mN0NiarX3Et6FA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAMyHXXcL_87fiiQ01k3sm=7NsNiR91FYt_84ex3ck=QUS8B7BQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <5617006d.86848c0a.55517.ffffb6e1@mx.google.com>
 <CAOsGNSRvyq-tN27_3kf3Ry8k4+drvVua84jzjaUO+_2b8HZ=5w@mail.gmail.com>
 <56173946.422b8c0a.b6cce.ffffd34e@mx.google.com>
Message-ID: <CAMyHXXcb8-=NUMP5Ova0GWrbnxkYxa9qb-fCn2d-+-xXOu_OFw@mail.gmail.com>

By "arms" I was less implying firearms than other weaponry (e.g., WMD and
individually targeting genomic pathogens).

Steve

On Fri, Oct 9, 2015 at 3:54 AM, Juan <juan.g71 at gmail.com> wrote:

> On Fri, 9 Oct 2015 03:27:10 +0000
> Zenaan Harkness <zen at freedbms.net> wrote:
>
> > On 10/8/15, Juan <juan.g71 at gmail.com> wrote:
> > > On Thu, 8 Oct 2015 23:31:01 +0000
> > > Steven Schear <schear.steve at gmail.com> wrote:
> > >> "An armed society is a polite society"
> > >
> > >     LMAO! Like the US cesspool eh.
> >
> > Despite their corrupt and unlawful government,
> > https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pELwCqz2JfE.mp4
>
>
>
>         https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cxHvHi-MdIM
>
> general baxter:
>
>          Look, if the slaves want guns, leave them be;
>         our supremacy doesn't depend on weaponry.
>         With schools, media,money and meds
>         we control every aspect of your lives through ideological
>         hegemony.
>
>         But if you think you need guns to stop tyranny, then
>         what are you waiting for?
>         We've already stripped you of your liberty, privacy, civil
>         rights and dignity - you want some more?
>
>
>
>
>
> > NUMBER ONE WITH A BULLET
>
>
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From tbiehn at gmail.com  Thu Oct  8 22:52:27 2015
From: tbiehn at gmail.com (Travis Biehn)
Date: Fri, 09 Oct 2015 05:52:27 +0000
Subject: The GCHQ Cryptome slide could be a mockup/disinfo
In-Reply-To: <CAJVRA1Qf4L6WCLqtsVgX4NyPLYrdTT0_xbxjEHFZMQ5XZtS5bg@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CANFTA0_rUNWVZ8jN=+=vPbQ2f+iTrRx6x1uZB+h61pKO56tXuw@mail.gmail.com>
 <20151008153729.GE2590@sivokote.iziade.m$>
 <20151008165339.CCFE9C0001A@frontend1.nyi.internal>
 <E1ZkExF-0004kD-V8@elasmtp-spurfowl.atl.sa.earthlink.net>
 <CAKtE3zeBzNRbzxyE-AiTVLZ18gxCrkg8iQv7wH8Cg=ipDdyaiw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAJVRA1Qf4L6WCLqtsVgX4NyPLYrdTT0_xbxjEHFZMQ5XZtS5bg@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAKtE3zdoxCN2rN0mHE=kTrZ93iZGG-cc5m_rV-9UpiK78Y05oQ@mail.gmail.com>

Could be,

You know, if your movement has no figureheads or sacred cows there's
'nobody for a jtrig to attack.'

Then again, I don't sign my emails.

YMMV

Travis

On Thu, Oct 8, 2015, 10:28 PM coderman <coderman at gmail.com> wrote:

> On 10/8/15, Travis Biehn <tbiehn at gmail.com> wrote:
> > Who cares about these personalities and their websites? Who cares if JYA
> is
> > jerk/whacko/nerd/wizard mage?
> > You should assume he is an attacker, just like everyone else.
> >
> > Getting caught up in this he-said-she-said is totally, ultimately,
> absurdly
> > pointless.
>
> i find this reply un-characteristic of the Travis Biehn who is a
> legitimate researcher and cares deeply about the integrity of the
> Cryptome.org webserver and the logs which are generated by clients
> making HTTP requests of it over plain-text.
>
> given the KINKY SMURF'ing going on in the other threads, i think it is
> safe to say this sentiment is <FALSEHOOD CLASSIFICATION LABEL EXPANDED
> HERE>.
>
>
>
> > Who cares about cryptome keeping server logs? If you're worried about
> > showing up in logs then you ought to be using TAILS.
>
> the real Travis Biehn rolls his own Whonix Qubes respin with Address
> Sanitizer enabled userspace, and would recommend nothing less to
> others!
>
> tbiehn at gmail.com has been JTRIG'ed :o
>
>
> best regards,
>
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From admin at pilobilus.net  Fri Oct  9 06:00:35 2015
From: admin at pilobilus.net (Steve Kinney)
Date: Fri, 9 Oct 2015 09:00:35 -0400
Subject: The GCHQ Cryptome slide could be a mockup/disinfo
In-Reply-To: <20151008105824.badf12c7552870001624480d@virtadpt.net>
References: <CANFTA0_rUNWVZ8jN=+=vPbQ2f+iTrRx6x1uZB+h61pKO56tXuw@mail.gmail.com>
 <20151008153729.GE2590@sivokote.iziade.m$>
 <20151008165339.CCFE9C0001A@frontend1.nyi.internal>
 <20151008105824.badf12c7552870001624480d@virtadpt.net>
Message-ID: <5617BA73.7050804@pilobilus.net>

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1

On 10/08/2015 01:58 PM, The Doctor wrote:
> On Thu, 08 Oct 2015 09:53:56 -0700 Shelley 
> <shelley at misanthropia.org> wrote:
> 
>> There are no sacred cows.  There is only data, and whatever 
>> truth is borne out of it whether or not it's the answer we 
>> wish to see.  The scientific method and all, you know, that 
>> most of us hold dear.
> 
> This is the Internet!  You can't say something reasonable! 
> J'accuse!
> 
> <grin>
> 
>> Snowden is not infallible. Cryptome/JY are not infallible. 
>> Hell, even Ellsberg isn't infallible (as we were recently 
>> reminded.)
> 
> This.  So much this.

And all because somebody got bent out of shape over comments made
re attempting to challenge the attribution of a "leaked" document?
 That amounts to less than an ant fart in a tornado, in context?

Lest we forget, the original PRISM slides were, at minimum,
heavily altered by the Guardian and/or Post.  Everyone who was
paying any real attention at the time knows it.  No firestorm of
controversy followed.

http://electrospaces.blogspot.nl/2013/06/are-nsas-prism-slides-photo
shopped.html

... although it did influence my own early conclusions about the
Snowden Affair, which have evolved a bit in response to subsequent
events.  Even so, I'm not the least embarrassed by any mistakes I
may have made:

http://www.globalresearch.ca/nsa-deception-operation-questions-surro
und-leaked-prism-documents-authenticity

:o)




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From coderman at gmail.com  Fri Oct  9 09:24:36 2015
From: coderman at gmail.com (coderman)
Date: Fri, 9 Oct 2015 09:24:36 -0700
Subject: [cryptome] Cryptome has been leaking its user logs for over a year
In-Reply-To: <CANFTA0-cdkCMffk1v_cFjYEJ7sq3d=4_V+Vw0Ucgu-fN8ga0-A@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CANFTA0-cdkCMffk1v_cFjYEJ7sq3d=4_V+Vw0Ucgu-fN8ga0-A@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAJVRA1TUXrFG9FqzbRF+-yTL8t33qJOTLS5pm=M666-gqvi6JA@mail.gmail.com>

On 10/8/15, Michael Best <themikebest at gmail.com> wrote:
> Writing this at 01:23 AM, please forgive any typos or editing errors.
>
> I'm updating the page to clarify that coderman is not bandmon. Thank you
> for clarifying, coderman. The piratebay torrent is, I believe, made from
> the zoinks torrent listed in places like
> https://mailman.stanford.edu/pipermail/liberationtech/2014-September/014344.html

*nod*



> ...(If possible, please check for the files in your own copy of
> the Cryptome archive. /USB-1.rar/Disk
> 2/07-Cryptome-org-13-0702-cartome-directory.zip/awstats)

0eb8551d977dde4f4193b3a16dedcd18f01e854e371e96623d33dd5b9519e413  USB-1.rar

i expect it to be verbatim, will confirm...



> Thanks for correcting my mistake, coderman - sorry for incorrectly assuming
> that you were bandmon.

it's ok, even my mother calls me badmon sometimes...

best regards,




From carimachet at gmail.com  Thu Oct  8 23:57:27 2015
From: carimachet at gmail.com (Cari Machet)
Date: Fri, 9 Oct 2015 09:57:27 +0300
Subject: Cryptome has been leaking its user logs for over a year
In-Reply-To: <561731d2.0c5b8c0a.eb9c4.ffffcf84@mx.google.com>
References: <CANFTA0-4ZDCq-QMAj=KeT7i00OUvBWCZ2VM32HHsnzMiUhkMeg@mail.gmail.com>
 <20151008060551.GA2590@sivokote.iziade.m$>
 <CAJVRA1Szqkmi7LmB6oeuavMbJWSzPFxPwqOoWNXO3dtMaFTV5w@mail.gmail.com>
 <561731d2.0c5b8c0a.eb9c4.ffffcf84@mx.google.com>
Message-ID: <CAGRDzQWdWLNv3ZEaxnPga+rbXqU9utvRdHjiHbsG19hLcmBXAw@mail.gmail.com>

Agreed but we do still have pirate bay and the drug pushing parasites are
not omnipotent - do not be so willing to hand the power over in such a
monolithic way

Icelandic servers have a base of security because of the structure of law
and it is being pushed for more

And where are wikileaks servers i know there were issues in sweden but...?

There is a meassure of protection in ecuador

Legal shit has ramifications
On Oct 9, 2015 6:19 AM, "Juan" <juan.g71 at gmail.com> wrote:

> On Thu, 8 Oct 2015 18:50:25 -0700
> coderman <coderman at gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > On 10/7/15, Georgi Guninski <guninski at guninski.com> wrote:
> > > John's replies appear weird to me.
> >
> > i find that understanding of John's replies is best achieved through a
> > structured series of mind altering substances ingested, inhaled, or
> > transdermally diffused in linear symphony of chemical augmentation...
>
>
>         Despite the barroque style, JY's points are quite to the point.
>
>         "Cybersecurity" is bullshit. The bad guys and the
>         majority(all?) of 'good' guys are scammers. It's all a big
>         charade. And so on and so forth.
>
>
>         https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8r-e2NDSTuE
>
>
>
>
> >
> > note that understanding is separate from Cryptome patron risk,
> > however.
> >
> >
> > best regards,
>
>
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From themikebest at gmail.com  Fri Oct  9 06:59:45 2015
From: themikebest at gmail.com (Michael Best)
Date: Fri, 9 Oct 2015 09:59:45 -0400
Subject: The GCHQ Cryptome slide could be a mockup/disinfo
In-Reply-To: <20151008172636.7B9D3C00018@frontend1.nyi.internal>
References: <CANFTA0_rUNWVZ8jN=+=vPbQ2f+iTrRx6x1uZB+h61pKO56tXuw@mail.gmail.com>
 <20151008153729.GE2590@sivokote.iziade.m$>
 <15048527170.276e.4d489027c0c4d0c1b1ca03a1f48f1ffb@misanthropia.org>
 <20151008165339.CCFE9C0001A@frontend1.nyi.internal>
 <CANFTA0_EmPHjSbw9VyoDvmhFbdT7MEGuYVOCvb-Z+-8bUrRWAQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <20151008172636.7B9D3C00018@frontend1.nyi.internal>
Message-ID: <CANFTA0-tZ_RTPQhw9r4fNs_3vYZZ1WbWiauqO3skf6JFKNTyxg@mail.gmail.com>

I don't know but if I had to guess, it's because they have no reason to get
into more specific and lesser charges until/unless it looks like he might
be coming to trial.

Then again, it's not the first time a slide has been challenged:
http://www.reuters.com/article/2014/12/11/us-germany-usa-spying-idUSKBN0JP1QG20141211?irpc=932

Germany's top public prosecutor said an investigation into suspected
> tapping of Chancellor Angela Merkel's mobile phone by U.S. spies had so far
> failed to find any concrete evidence.
> Revelations by former National Security Agency employee Edward Snowden
> that Washington carried out large-scale electronic espionage in Germany
> provoked widespread outrage -- particularly the allegation that the NSA had
> bugged Merkel's phone.
> Harald Range launched an official investigation in June, believing there
> was enough preliminary evidence to show unknown U.S. intelligence officers
> had tapped the phone, although there was not enough clarity on the issue to
> bring charges.
> On Wednesday he said however,
> *"the document presented in public as proof of an actual tapping of the
> mobile phone is not an authentic surveillance order by the NSA. It does not
> come from the NSA database."There is no proof at the moment which could
> lead to charges that Chancellor Merkel's phone connection data was
> collected or her calls tapped."*
> Range said neither a reporter for German news magazine Spiegel who
> presented the document, nor Germany's BND foreign intelligence agency, nor
> Snowden had provided further details to his office.


>From the German prosecutor, not an NSA spokesperson.

*Plus*, as I said in the post - *Snowden didn't see all the materials he
leaked*. If the document was forged and not legitimate or a mockup produced
by GCHQ for proposal purposes, etc., it could have been modified or
fabricated *after* Snowden gave up his trove.

Did you read the entire post, or just decide that "If he's not a
Snowden-ite, he's probably a liar or a bad man"??

*Georgi Guninski* guninski at guninski.com
<guninski%40guninski.com?Subject=Re%3A%20The%20GCHQ%20Cryptome%20slide%20could%20be%20a%20mockup/disinfo&In-Reply-To=%3C20151009134945.GA2643%40sivokote.iziade.m%24%3E>
*Fri Oct 9 09:49:45 EDT 2015*

> Why they don't charge Snowden for fabricating/photoshoping?
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From rysiek at hackerspace.pl  Fri Oct  9 02:43:02 2015
From: rysiek at hackerspace.pl (rysiek)
Date: Fri, 09 Oct 2015 11:43:02 +0200
Subject: Snowden on the Twitters
In-Reply-To: <5616D24F.9050602@riseup.net>
References: <CAD2Ti2-ZiZDAR_mLFAQqcgLVyyvrv2o2Kx3ri+jBK3o7aUF6QA@mail.gmail.com>
 <1507291.HDmZjomMS0@lapuntu> <5616D24F.9050602@riseup.net>
Message-ID: <7224708.p0GCJZunZ4@lapuntu>

Dnia czwartek, 8 października 2015 13:30:07 Razer pisze:
> On 10/08/2015 09:20 AM, rysiek wrote:
> > But wait, if we *do* get a truly decentralized market with no middlemen,
> > where individuals do not have to cooperate with would-be middlemen, are
> > you saying that individuals would not at all co-operate with each other
> > in order to *become* middlement and shaft everybody else?
> 
> Show me the advantage over cooperating with others equilaterally.

If there is no advantage, why do we have middlemen at all right now? If it was 
so blindingly obvious that it's better to co-operate equilaterally with 
everybody, rather than shafting them and becoming middlemen, why do middlemen 
exist at all?

-- 
Pozdrawiam,
Michał "rysiek" Woźniak

Zmieniam klucz GPG :: http://rys.io/pl/147
GPG Key Transition :: http://rys.io/en/147
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From rysiek at hackerspace.pl  Fri Oct  9 02:49:03 2015
From: rysiek at hackerspace.pl (rysiek)
Date: Fri, 09 Oct 2015 11:49:03 +0200
Subject: Cryptome has been leaking its user logs for over a year
In-Reply-To: <56169397.4090609@riseup.net>
References: <CANFTA0-4ZDCq-QMAj=KeT7i00OUvBWCZ2VM32HHsnzMiUhkMeg@mail.gmail.com>
 <56165105.3010007@pilobilus.net> <56169397.4090609@riseup.net>
Message-ID: <2321223.QiQsJNaVdQ@lapuntu>

Dnia czwartek, 8 października 2015 09:02:31 Razer pisze:
> Steve Kinney wrote the only thing I've read so far worth a damn.
> 
> YOU are responsible for YOUR OWN opsec, and global distribution has the
> effect of precluding the kind of misuse feared... Unless of course you
> have something to hide. In which case do like Osama, who disappeared off
> SIGINT radar in 1998. Use paper, pencil, and trusted couriers.
> 
> They'll still get you if the want you bad enough.

Yeah, why wash hands and brush your teeth at all, why use seatbelts, you're 
gonna die some day. Might as well be sooner.

Why are we even discuss all this here, if we're all fucked and there are no 
ways to minimize harm?

-- 
Pozdrawiam,
Michał "rysiek" Woźniak

Zmieniam klucz GPG :: http://rys.io/pl/147
GPG Key Transition :: http://rys.io/en/147
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From tbiehn at gmail.com  Fri Oct  9 08:49:19 2015
From: tbiehn at gmail.com (Travis Biehn)
Date: Fri, 9 Oct 2015 11:49:19 -0400
Subject: Introduce randommess in keypress timings
In-Reply-To: <9A043F3CF02CD34C8E74AC1594475C73F4B2E82D@uxcn10-5.UoA.auckland.ac.nz>
References: <636897858.795946.1444330101517.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com>
 <9A043F3CF02CD34C8E74AC1594475C73F4B2E82D@uxcn10-5.UoA.auckland.ac.nz>
Message-ID: <CAKtE3zcdDHQJA6fvZhq3oSYrpzpb7R7MwRJym2rJ39DTd=wPxg@mail.gmail.com>

Morelike 1 bit. Amirite? [The song you selected.]

Personally, I like to pipe /dev/urandom to my speakers for sourcing
keypress-timing based passwords.

-Travis

On Fri, Oct 9, 2015 at 11:25 AM, Peter Gutmann <pgut001 at cs.auckland.ac.nz>
wrote:

> Michael Nelson <nelson_mikel at yahoo.com> writes:
>
> >Five minutes of Swedish death metal should get you around 256 bits.
>
> Wrong entropy source, if you go for Norwegian black metal you get at least
> 1024 bits of entropy [0].  Having said that, Putin's foreign policy
> speeches
> will get you at least 512 bits of entropy in the same time frame.
>
> Peter.
>
> [0] From an estimate done at Tons of Rock in Norway in June of this year.
>
>


-- 
Twitter <https://twitter.com/tbiehn> | LinkedIn
<http://www.linkedin.com/in/travisbiehn> | GitHub <http://github.com/tbiehn>
| TravisBiehn.com <http://www.travisbiehn.com> | Google Plus
<https://plus.google.com/+TravisBiehn>
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From rysiek at hackerspace.pl  Fri Oct  9 02:52:22 2015
From: rysiek at hackerspace.pl (rysiek)
Date: Fri, 09 Oct 2015 11:52:22 +0200
Subject: [cryptome] Cryptome has been leaking its user logs for over a year
In-Reply-To: <56172A5E.6060907@riseup.net>
References: <CANFTA0-4ZDCq-QMAj=KeT7i00OUvBWCZ2VM32HHsnzMiUhkMeg@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAJVRA1TAeEfByH4n=OUyBVQZJT+gBK4yENjjtTBwmxGN_wbH4A@mail.gmail.com>
 <56172A5E.6060907@riseup.net>
Message-ID: <5142947.VjethuF63H@lapuntu>

Dnia czwartek, 8 października 2015 20:45:50 Mirimir pisze:
> On 10/08/2015 07:42 PM, coderman wrote:
> > On 10/7/15, Michael Best <themikebest at gmail.com> wrote:
> >> Let me begin by saying that Cryptome initially denied the leak, then that
> >> the data was stolen, then that the whole thing was a fake "a lie by [a]
> >> spy-newbie."
> > 
> > the lie is assuming these requests over plain-text were ever private :P
> 
> That is the key point!
> 
> And anyway, all traffic to all websites is public.

Oh for fucks' sake. There are fuckers who do listen in and surveil, etc, but 
it is *not* okay to make their work easier. And it is *not* okay to make one's 
server logs broadly available in such a context.

Why the fuck are people on this list slamming Snowden and freedom.press for 
using Cloudflare, and at the same time defending JYA for sending out server 
logs with dates and IP addresses?

The hell is this bullshit?

-- 
Pozdrawiam,
Michał "rysiek" Woźniak

Zmieniam klucz GPG :: http://rys.io/pl/147
GPG Key Transition :: http://rys.io/en/147
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From John  Fri Oct  9 08:54:05 2015
From: John (John)
Date: Fri, 09 Oct 2015 11:54:05 -0400
Subject: Cartome AWStats
Message-ID: <mailman.4610.1575949146.62801.testlist@lists.cpunks.org>











*You were right about AWStats data. Not the stats for Cryptome itself but
for the Cartome sub-directory, for four months, November 2009-February
2010. Included in a full site restoration by ISP NetSol after a full
shutdown in June 2013.The stats have been deleted from the Cryptome
archive. Probably best to not expose visitors' data further but then
nothing can be fully deleted or hidden.Thanks for discovering and reporting
in this.Publish this message if you like.Regards,John*

Immediately after receiving his email, I deleted the stat files from my
website. They were only published to force verification and public
disclosure about the leak. Now that it has been acknowledged, there's no
point in continuing to distribute them. If John provides a new
cryptographically signed Cryptome archive file without those logs, I will
replace the one hosted on Archive.org with the new, sanitized version. Note
that .7z may be best to prevent the archive's deriving process (it makes
individual files within the zip viewable) from making changes to the .zip
file which can cause it to no longer match the hash/cryptographic signature.
What does this mean for the slide that seems to show GCHQ spying on
Cryptome.org?

According to John Young's email, the leak is limited to the Cartome
sub-directory which would not include the Eyeball directory. However, the
time frame matches up perfectly and does include the time period the slide
appears to show. Determining whether or not the leak ever included the
Eyeball directory, and why NetSol's glitch only restored those four months
of the Cartome's stats to the Cryptome archive while trying to view a
random selection of the leaked files on the online server failed, requires
more information from NetSol, Cryptome's ISP. Inquiring about those details
from NetSol and disclosing them falls entirely to John Young and Deborah
Natsios. Presumably, John Young would have disclosed if a similar leak had
been found relating to the Eyeball directory, but it remains possible that
the information might have been deleted from the Cryptome archive prior to
2014-06-02
<https://thepiratebay.se/torrent/11113511/Cryptome_archive_2014-06-02> without
John realizing it had already leaked. More information will be required
before those possibilities can be excluded.

As of the time of this posting (13:45 Eastern October 9, 2015), John Young
has not added anything to his website, twitter account, or mailing lists
disclosing the now confirmed leak to his users. He did remove the graphic
advising his users that the GCHQ was/is allegedly monitoring them.
<http://web.archive.org/web/20151007140432/https:/twitter.com/Cryptomeorg/status/644123971051474944>

--001a114035e6c7bbc40521afa24c
Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

<div dir=3D"ltr"><div>Most up to date version: <a href=3D"http://that1archi=
ve.neocities.org/subfolder1/cryptome-admits-leak.html">http://that1archive.=
neocities.org/subfolder1/cryptome-admits-leak.html</a><br></div><div><br></=
div><div><br></div><div class=3D"gmail_extra"><span style=3D"color:rgb(0,0,=
0);font-family:Verdana;font-size:medium">Before reading this, I recommend r=
eading my first post raising concerns that the alleged GCHQ Cryptome slide =
from=C2=A0</span><a href=3D"http://that1archive.neocities.org/subfolder1/gc=
hq-cryptome-slide.html" style=3D"font-family:Verdana;font-size:medium">coul=
d be a mockup</a><span style=3D"color:rgb(0,0,0);font-family:Verdana;font-s=
ize:medium">, followed by my disclosure of=C2=A0</span><a href=3D"http://th=
at1archive.neocities.org/subfolder1/cryptome-leaked-logs.html" style=3D"fon=
t-family:Verdana;font-size:medium">Cryptome&#39;s leaked user logs</a><span=
 style=3D"color:rgb(0,0,0);font-family:Verdana;font-size:medium">.</span><p=
 style=3D"color:rgb(0,0,0);font-family:Verdana;font-size:medium">After=C2=
=A0<a href=3D"http://web.archive.org/web/20151009170831/https:/twitter.com/=
Cryptomeorg/status/651652489704554497">refusing to comment</a>, denying it,=
 accusing it of=C2=A0<a href=3D"http://web.archive.org/web/20151009170829/h=
ttps:/twitter.com/Cryptomeorg/status/651838022909054978">being disinfo</a>,=
 accusing me of=C2=A0<a href=3D"http://web.archive.org/web/20151007134316/h=
ttps:/twitter.com/Cryptomeorg/status/651751155962396674">stealing data</a>,=
 accusing me of=C2=A0<a href=3D"http://web.archive.org/web/20151009170826/h=
ttps:/twitter.com/Cryptomeorg/status/651890295072755712">being a newbie adv=
ertising for a spy job</a>, declaring that it was=C2=A0<a href=3D"https://c=
punks.org/pipermail/cypherpunks/2015-October/009681.html">&quot;a campaign&=
quot; against them</a>, accusing me of=C2=A0<a href=3D"http://web.archive.o=
rg/web/20151008125804/https:/twitter.com/Cryptomeorg/status/651777707873837=
056">faking data</a>, declaring that all logs leak and=C2=A0<a href=3D"http=
://web.archive.org/web/20151009170824/https:/twitter.com/Cryptomeorg/status=
/652067337621929984">they pay for the internet</a>, and=C2=A0<a href=3D"htt=
ps://twitter.com/NatSecGeek/status/651907692081115137">deleting my post</a>=
=C2=A0to the Cryptome=C2=A0<a href=3D"https://cpunks.org/pipermail/cypherpu=
nks/2015-October/009684.html">mailing list</a>=C2=A0alerting them to the le=
ak, Cryptome has acknowledged that the leaked logs I found were legitimate.=
 John Young/Cryptome then thanked me, which is apology enough for all the a=
ccusations.</p><br style=3D"color:rgb(0,0,0);font-family:Verdana;font-size:=
medium"><blockquote style=3D"color:rgb(0,0,0);font-family:Verdana;font-size=
:medium">Date: Fri, 09 Oct 2015 11:54:05 -0400<br>To: Michael Best<br>From:=
 John Young<br>Subject: Cartome AWStats=C2=A0<br><br><i>You were right abou=
t AWStats data. Not the stats for Cryptome itself but for the Cartome sub-d=
irectory, for four months, November 2009-February 2010. Included in a full =
site restoration by ISP NetSol after a full shutdown in June 2013.<br><br>T=
he stats have been deleted from the Cryptome archive. Probably best to not =
expose visitors&#39; data further but then nothing can be fully deleted or =
hidden.<br><br>Thanks for discovering and reporting in this.<br><br>Publish=
 this message if you like.<br><br>Regards,<br><br>John</i></blockquote><p s=
tyle=3D"color:rgb(0,0,0);font-family:Verdana;font-size:medium">Immediately =
after receiving his email, I deleted the stat files from my website. They w=
ere only published to force verification and public disclosure about the le=
ak. Now that it has been acknowledged, there&#39;s no point in continuing t=
o distribute them. If John provides a new cryptographically signed Cryptome=
 archive file without those logs, I will replace the one hosted on Archive.=
org with the new, sanitized version. Note that .7z may be best to prevent t=
he archive&#39;s deriving process (it makes individual files within the zip=
 viewable) from making changes to the .zip file which can cause it to no lo=
nger match the hash/cryptographic signature.</p><h3 style=3D"color:rgb(0,0,=
0);font-family:Verdana">What does this mean for the slide that seems to sho=
w GCHQ spying on Cryptome.org?</h3><p style=3D"color:rgb(0,0,0);font-family=
:Verdana;font-size:medium">According to John Young&#39;s email, the leak is=
 limited to the Cartome sub-directory which would not include the Eyeball d=
irectory. However, the time frame matches up perfectly and does include the=
 time period the slide appears to show. Determining whether or not the leak=
 ever included the Eyeball directory, and why NetSol&#39;s glitch only rest=
ored those four months of the Cartome&#39;s stats to the Cryptome archive w=
hile trying to view a random selection of the leaked files on the online se=
rver failed, requires more information from NetSol, Cryptome&#39;s ISP. Inq=
uiring about those details from NetSol and disclosing them falls entirely t=
o John Young and Deborah Natsios. Presumably, John Young would have disclos=
ed if a similar leak had been found relating to the Eyeball directory, but =
it remains possible that the information might have been deleted from the C=
ryptome archive=C2=A0<a href=3D"https://thepiratebay.se/torrent/11113511/Cr=
yptome_archive_2014-06-02">prior to 2014-06-02</a>=C2=A0without John realiz=
ing it had already leaked. More information will be required before those p=
ossibilities can be excluded.</p><p style=3D"color:rgb(0,0,0);font-family:V=
erdana;font-size:medium">As of the time of this posting (13:45 Eastern Octo=
ber 9, 2015), John Young has not added anything to his website, twitter acc=
ount, or mailing lists disclosing the now confirmed leak to his users. He d=
id remove the graphic advising his users that the GCHQ was/is allegedly mon=
itoring them.</p><center style=3D"color:rgb(0,0,0);font-family:Verdana;font=
-size:medium"><a href=3D"http://web.archive.org/web/20151007140432/https:/t=
witter.com/Cryptomeorg/status/644123971051474944"><img src=3D"http://that1a=
rchive.neocities.org/subfolder1/cryptome-should-admit-compromise.png"></a><=
/center></div></div>

--001a114035e6c7bbc40521afa24c--




From Rayzer at riseup.net  Fri Oct  9 12:33:28 2015
From: Rayzer at riseup.net (Razer)
Date: Fri, 9 Oct 2015 12:33:28 -0700
Subject: [cryptome] Cryptome has been leaking its user logs for over a year
In-Reply-To: <5142947.VjethuF63H@lapuntu>
References: <CANFTA0-4ZDCq-QMAj=KeT7i00OUvBWCZ2VM32HHsnzMiUhkMeg@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAJVRA1TAeEfByH4n=OUyBVQZJT+gBK4yENjjtTBwmxGN_wbH4A@mail.gmail.com>
 <56172A5E.6060907@riseup.net> <5142947.VjethuF63H@lapuntu>
Message-ID: <56181688.9020802@riseup.net>



On 10/09/2015 02:52 AM, rysiek wrote:
> Why the fuck are people on this list slamming Snowden and freedom.press for 
> using Cloudflare, and at the same time defending JYA for sending out server 
> logs with dates and IP addresses?
Because Cloudflare won't show anyone (except the feds) what they're logging.

That SEEMS to give the feds a (snigger) monopolistic advantage.

> CloudFlare,  which  boasts  that  4% of all web requests flows through
> its network, in essence serves as gatekeeper to control the flow of
> visitors to given sites and to verify that those visitors have a
> legitimate purpose in visiting them. It has  advanced  detection 
> features  that  complicate  (or  thwart  entirely)  attempts  by
> automated robots to scrape data from and monitor these forums,
> including browser tests and so -called “captcha codes.”  
>  
> In fact, two of ISIS’ top three online chat forums — including the
> notorious Alplatformmedia.com — are currently guarded by CloudFlare.
> Without such protection from CloudFlare, these sites would almost
> certainly succumb to the same relentless online attacks that have
> completely collapsed several major jihadi web forums over the past two
> years. In 2013, after CloudFlare was contacted by journalists over
> allegations that their service was providing protection to terrorist
> websites, the company’s CEO Matthew Prince published a full
> explanation of their policy in this regard.  
>  
> According to Prince, it would not “be right for us to monitor the
> content that flows through our network and make determinations on what
> is and what is not politically appropriate. Frankly, that would be
> creepy... Removing this, or any other site, from our network wouldn't
> remove the content from the Internet: it would simply slow its
> performance and make it more vulnerable to attack. ”  
>  
> In his response, Prince also asserted:  
>>  
>> “A website is speech. It is not a bomb. There is no imminent danger
>> it creates and no provider has an affirmative obligation to monitor
>> and make determinations about the theoretically harmful nature of
>> speech a site may contain... There are lots of things on the web I
>> find personally distasteful. I have political beliefs, but I don't
>> believe those beliefs should color what is and is not allowed to flow
>> over the network. As we have blogged about  before,  we  often  find 
>> ourselves  on  opposite  sides  of  political  conflicts.
>> Fundamentally, we are consistent in the fact that our political
>> beliefs will not color who we allow to be fast and safe on the web. ” 
>
>  
> In June 2010, in the context of the case of Holder v. Humanitarian Law
> Project, the U.S. Supreme Court upheld a strict view of the “expert
> advice and assistance” clause of U.S. counter-terrorism laws, making
> even nonviolent advocacy potentially an illicit form of material
> support if it is carried out in conjunction with a proscribed
> terrorist organization. The case had specifically centered on a group
> of American civil rights activists who advertised their mission as
> helping such groups “find peaceful ways to achieve [their] goals.”  
>  
> It is extremely difficult to reconcile the logical paradox that it is
> currently illegal to give pro-bono assistance to a terrorist group in
> order for them to adopt politics instead of violence, but it is
> perfectly legal for CloudFlare to commercially profit from a terrorist
> group by assisting them to communicate securely with recruits and to
> publicly disseminate recordings of mass murder. Indeed, CloudFlare CEO
> Matthew Prince has been adamant in his declarations that “ CloudFlare
> abides by all applicable laws in the countries in which we operate and
> we firmly support the due process of law.” Prince continues to insist,
> “ We have never received a request to terminate the site in question
> from any law enforcement authority, let alone a valid order from a
> court.”    
>  
> In deference to CloudFlare, it is possible that the company has
> received a formal request from law enforcement to continue providing
> its services to such an illicit online forum.  Yet, even as one who
> has repeatedly advocated leaving jihadi forums online in order to
> study those who use them, this possibility gives me pause for
> reflection.  If so, there must be a careful assessment of the
> potential negative policy impacts of leaving ISIS recruitment
> platforms online and unmolested in light of the recognition that
> Western security services are abjectly failing to track, identify, and
> stop all of those who are using these sites.  If so, there must be a
> careful assessment of the potential negative policy impacts of leaving
> ISIS recruitment platforms online and unmolested in light of the
> recognition that Western security services are abjectly failing to
> track, identify, and stop all of those who are using these sites.
>  
Testimony of Evan F. Kohlmann with Laith Alkhouri and Alexandra Kassirer  
 
Before the House Committee on Foreign Affairs Subcommittee on Terrorism,
Nonproliferation, and Trade  
 
"The Evolution of Terrorist Propaganda: The Paris Attack and Social Media"
 
http://docs.house.gov/meetings/FA/FA18/20150127/102855/HHRG-114-FA18-Wstate-KohlmannE-20150127.pdf


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From Rayzer at riseup.net  Fri Oct  9 12:41:47 2015
From: Rayzer at riseup.net (Razer)
Date: Fri, 9 Oct 2015 12:41:47 -0700
Subject: Cryptome has been leaking its user logs for over a year
In-Reply-To: <CAGRDzQWdWLNv3ZEaxnPga+rbXqU9utvRdHjiHbsG19hLcmBXAw@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CANFTA0-4ZDCq-QMAj=KeT7i00OUvBWCZ2VM32HHsnzMiUhkMeg@mail.gmail.com>
 <20151008060551.GA2590@sivokote.iziade.m$>
 <CAJVRA1Szqkmi7LmB6oeuavMbJWSzPFxPwqOoWNXO3dtMaFTV5w@mail.gmail.com>
 <561731d2.0c5b8c0a.eb9c4.ffffcf84@mx.google.com>
 <CAGRDzQWdWLNv3ZEaxnPga+rbXqU9utvRdHjiHbsG19hLcmBXAw@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <5618187B.8080507@riseup.net>

On 10/08/2015 11:57 PM, Cari Machet wrote:
> but we do still have pirate bay

The 'new' Pirate Bay, sans a couple of it's long time operators, is
being 'protected' by CloudFlare

ioerror noted it: https://twitter.com/ioerror/status/561583278319501313

Some information about the changes, and changes yet to come from Depcor.
http://www.deepcor.com/technology/2015/1/31/the-pirate-bay-is-officially-back-online

Discussion @ Reddit.
http://www.reddit.com/r/technology/comments/2uaxqz/after_being_down_for_51_days_the_original_pirate/

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From Rayzer at riseup.net  Fri Oct  9 12:57:40 2015
From: Rayzer at riseup.net (Razer)
Date: Fri, 9 Oct 2015 12:57:40 -0700
Subject: The GCHQ Cryptome slide could be a mockup/disinfo
In-Reply-To: <5617BA73.7050804@pilobilus.net>
References: <CANFTA0_rUNWVZ8jN=+=vPbQ2f+iTrRx6x1uZB+h61pKO56tXuw@mail.gmail.com>
 <20151008153729.GE2590@sivokote.iziade.m$>
 <20151008165339.CCFE9C0001A@frontend1.nyi.internal>
 <20151008105824.badf12c7552870001624480d@virtadpt.net>
 <5617BA73.7050804@pilobilus.net>
Message-ID: <56181C34.8030204@riseup.net>



On 10/09/2015 06:00 AM, Steve Kinney wrote:
> Lest we forget, the original PRISM slides were, at minimum,
> heavily altered by the Guardian and/or Post.

Certainly didn't affect people understanding the threat to civil society.

> Meet Jack. Or, What The Government Could Do With All That Location Data
>
>>
>>     “…just a taste of what this powerful new (NSA) system is capable
>> of. We look forward to working with your department for many years to
>> come in our mutual efforts to keep America a safe and controlled
>> place where no one, no matter where they are, can commit wrongdoing.”
>>
>
> We now know that the NSA is collecting location information en masse.
> As we’ve long said, location data is an extremely powerful set of
> information about people. To flesh out why that is true, here is the
> kind of future memo that we fear may someday soon be uncovered:
>
> ^^^^^^^^^^^
>
> Dear commissioner:
>
> Now that we have finalized our systems for the acquisition and
> processing of Americans’ location data (using data from cell phone and
> license plate readers as well as other sources), I wanted to give you
> a quick taste of our new system’s capabilities in the domestic
> policing context.
>
> As you can see in this screen shot from our new application, an
> individual by the name of Jack R. Benjamin yesterday was flagged as a
> potential DUI risk…

Full PowerPoint Presentation, NSA/police agency style, At The ACLU.

https://www.aclu.org/feature/meet-jack?redirect=meet-jack-or-what-government-could-do-all-location-data

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From coderman at gmail.com  Fri Oct  9 13:45:15 2015
From: coderman at gmail.com (coderman)
Date: Fri, 9 Oct 2015 13:45:15 -0700
Subject: Cryptome admits they leaked their logs (WAS: [cryptome] Cryptome
 has been leaking its user logs for over a year)
In-Reply-To: <CANFTA0-FDErENX-t_iV2gOwh5qy8KcTazo8JRScbJUZP9pjkEw@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CANFTA0_R68-G7FfrHzTs3tdMRNfeyi3RKLYuLG0ALRBVbodoVw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CANFTA0-FDErENX-t_iV2gOwh5qy8KcTazo8JRScbJUZP9pjkEw@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAJVRA1TynSO7HJJH9LzSxQ6r9Sx-2Xng+QvtYzX4h4e7ppCEXQ@mail.gmail.com>

On 10/9/15, Michael Best <themikebest at gmail.com> wrote:
> ...
> Not sure how I was right AND the info is rigged and disinfo...

QUANTUMSQUIRREL casts suspicion, just like shade, too.




From themikebest at gmail.com  Fri Oct  9 10:51:57 2015
From: themikebest at gmail.com (Michael Best)
Date: Fri, 9 Oct 2015 13:51:57 -0400
Subject: Cryptome admits they leaked their logs (WAS: [cryptome] Cryptome has
 been leaking its user logs for over a year)
Message-ID: <CANFTA0_R68-G7FfrHzTs3tdMRNfeyi3RKLYuLG0ALRBVbodoVw@mail.gmail.com>

Most up to date version:
http://that1archive.neocities.org/subfolder1/cryptome-admits-leak.html


Before reading this, I recommend reading my first post raising concerns
that the alleged GCHQ Cryptome slide from could be a mockup
<http://that1archive.neocities.org/subfolder1/gchq-cryptome-slide.html>,
followed by my disclosure of Cryptome's leaked user logs
<http://that1archive.neocities.org/subfolder1/cryptome-leaked-logs.html>.

After refusing to comment
<http://web.archive.org/web/20151009170831/https:/twitter.com/Cryptomeorg/status/651652489704554497>,
denying it, accusing it of being disinfo
<http://web.archive.org/web/20151009170829/https:/twitter.com/Cryptomeorg/status/651838022909054978>,
accusing me of stealing data
<http://web.archive.org/web/20151007134316/https:/twitter.com/Cryptomeorg/status/651751155962396674>,
accusing me of being a newbie advertising for a spy job
<http://web.archive.org/web/20151009170826/https:/twitter.com/Cryptomeorg/status/651890295072755712>,
declaring that it was "a campaign" against them
<https://cpunks.org/pipermail/cypherpunks/2015-October/009681.html>,
accusing me of faking data
<http://web.archive.org/web/20151008125804/https:/twitter.com/Cryptomeorg/status/651777707873837056>,
declaring that all logs leak and they pay for the internet
<http://web.archive.org/web/20151009170824/https:/twitter.com/Cryptomeorg/status/652067337621929984>,
and deleting my post
<https://twitter.com/NatSecGeek/status/651907692081115137> to the
Cryptome mailing
list <https://cpunks.org/pipermail/cypherpunks/2015-October/009684.html>
alerting
them to the leak, Cryptome has acknowledged that the leaked logs I found
were legitimate. John Young/Cryptome then thanked me, which is apology
enough for all the accusations.

From oshwm at openmailbox.org  Fri Oct  9 06:59:30 2015
From: oshwm at openmailbox.org (oshwm)
Date: Fri, 09 Oct 2015 14:59:30 +0100
Subject: [cryptome] Cryptome has been leaking its user logs for over a year
In-Reply-To: <5142947.VjethuF63H@lapuntu>
References: <CANFTA0-4ZDCq-QMAj=KeT7i00OUvBWCZ2VM32HHsnzMiUhkMeg@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAJVRA1TAeEfByH4n=OUyBVQZJT+gBK4yENjjtTBwmxGN_wbH4A@mail.gmail.com>
 <56172A5E.6060907@riseup.net> <5142947.VjethuF63H@lapuntu>
Message-ID: <5617C842.1020205@openmailbox.org>



On 09/10/15 10:52, rysiek wrote:
> Dnia czwartek, 8 października 2015 20:45:50 Mirimir pisze:
>> On 10/08/2015 07:42 PM, coderman wrote:
>>> On 10/7/15, Michael Best <themikebest at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>> Let me begin by saying that Cryptome initially denied the leak, then that
>>>> the data was stolen, then that the whole thing was a fake "a lie by [a]
>>>> spy-newbie."
>>>
>>> the lie is assuming these requests over plain-text were ever private :P
>>
>> That is the key point!
>>
>> And anyway, all traffic to all websites is public.
> 
> Oh for fucks' sake. There are fuckers who do listen in and surveil, etc, but 
> it is *not* okay to make their work easier. And it is *not* okay to make one's 
> server logs broadly available in such a context.
> 
> Why the fuck are people on this list slamming Snowden and freedom.press for 
> using Cloudflare, and at the same time defending JYA for sending out server 
> logs with dates and IP addresses?
> 

I feel the need to respond here although previously having sat and
watched as I was involved quite heavily in the CF/freedom.press discussion.

So, here's my viewpoint:-

EVERYONE is responsible for their own OpSec and can trust NO website no
matter who created/maintains it.
You can't even trust the infrastructure that your data travels on -
check out you cable/DSL router, the ISP has remote access to it and
that's in your own property supposedly managed by you.

Having said that, it is the duty of EVERY honest website owner to reduce
the amount of user data they hold and/or expose - to do any different is
reckless, inconsiderate and possibly dangerous.

With respect to Cloudflare, there are a different set of problems:-

1) MiTM - they terminate your secure connections without letting you
know BEFORE you connect or transfer confidential communications.

2) They sit in the path fo so much internet traffic that just CF alone
can be used to correlate various bits of data/metadata with regards to
someone that they are a one corp logging system for TLA's etc.
This issue is far larger than the cryptome one although cryptome is
going against what I wrote earlier about data reduction.

freedom.press, like MANY other organisations around the world are using
Cloudflare's services in full knowledge that they MiTM and provide a
irresistable data collection and collation point for the TLA's.
And yet, still claim to be fighting for the good guys.

Snowden? He has his own agenda and is using the "leaks" (if they are
real) to push that agenda - if you agree with what he wants "a
conversation about mass surveillance" then cool, cheer him on (whether
his data is crap or not), otherwise he can be ignored for the most part
as your OpSec should assume EVERYTHING is compromised right down to
discrete component level (think you can't fit an IC into the casing of a
resistor or diode?).

As for Best, as previously said, I haven't time at the moment to review
the data he has presented to know if he has an angle or if he's just a
good guy.

Position clarified enough?

> The hell is this bullshit?
> 

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From pgut001 at cs.auckland.ac.nz  Fri Oct  9 08:25:15 2015
From: pgut001 at cs.auckland.ac.nz (Peter Gutmann)
Date: Fri, 9 Oct 2015 15:25:15 +0000
Subject: Introduce randommess in keypress timings
In-Reply-To: <636897858.795946.1444330101517.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com>
References: <636897858.795946.1444330101517.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com>,
 <636897858.795946.1444330101517.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <9A043F3CF02CD34C8E74AC1594475C73F4B2E82D@uxcn10-5.UoA.auckland.ac.nz>

Michael Nelson <nelson_mikel at yahoo.com> writes:

>Five minutes of Swedish death metal should get you around 256 bits.

Wrong entropy source, if you go for Norwegian black metal you get at least
1024 bits of entropy [0].  Having said that, Putin's foreign policy speeches
will get you at least 512 bits of entropy in the same time frame.

Peter.

[0] From an estimate done at Tons of Rock in Norway in June of this year.




From tbiehn at gmail.com  Fri Oct  9 12:42:51 2015
From: tbiehn at gmail.com (Travis Biehn)
Date: Fri, 9 Oct 2015 15:42:51 -0400
Subject: [cryptome] Cryptome has been leaking its user logs for over a year
In-Reply-To: <56181688.9020802@riseup.net>
References: <CANFTA0-4ZDCq-QMAj=KeT7i00OUvBWCZ2VM32HHsnzMiUhkMeg@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAJVRA1TAeEfByH4n=OUyBVQZJT+gBK4yENjjtTBwmxGN_wbH4A@mail.gmail.com>
 <56172A5E.6060907@riseup.net> <5142947.VjethuF63H@lapuntu>
 <56181688.9020802@riseup.net>
Message-ID: <CAKtE3zeALjs94eEHOTyF=xhZRSmAzhbLt8jdPSfYcnaVUYNphQ@mail.gmail.com>

Because they're two different threats, one that's within the users' purview
and the other is the service operator's.

1) Cloudflare is active MITM & payload delivery platform.
Use a throw-away to browse, you can't be sure of the integrity. Oops.


2) I hope IA and other parties don't know I was drooling over TS dox.
Use an anonymizing platform. If you're relying on the operator to 'not keep
logs' *you're doing it wrong*, not JY.

-Travis


On Fri, Oct 9, 2015 at 3:33 PM, Razer <Rayzer at riseup.net> wrote:

>
>
> On 10/09/2015 02:52 AM, rysiek wrote:
> > Why the fuck are people on this list slamming Snowden and freedom.press
> for
> > using Cloudflare, and at the same time defending JYA for sending out
> server
> > logs with dates and IP addresses?
> Because Cloudflare won't show anyone (except the feds) what they're
> logging.
>
> That SEEMS to give the feds a (snigger) monopolistic advantage.
>
> > CloudFlare,  which  boasts  that  4% of all web requests flows through
> > its network, in essence serves as gatekeeper to control the flow of
> > visitors to given sites and to verify that those visitors have a
> > legitimate purpose in visiting them. It has  advanced  detection
> > features  that  complicate  (or  thwart  entirely)  attempts  by
> > automated robots to scrape data from and monitor these forums,
> > including browser tests and so -called “captcha codes.”
> >
> > In fact, two of ISIS’ top three online chat forums — including the
> > notorious Alplatformmedia.com — are currently guarded by CloudFlare.
> > Without such protection from CloudFlare, these sites would almost
> > certainly succumb to the same relentless online attacks that have
> > completely collapsed several major jihadi web forums over the past two
> > years. In 2013, after CloudFlare was contacted by journalists over
> > allegations that their service was providing protection to terrorist
> > websites, the company’s CEO Matthew Prince published a full
> > explanation of their policy in this regard.
> >
> > According to Prince, it would not “be right for us to monitor the
> > content that flows through our network and make determinations on what
> > is and what is not politically appropriate. Frankly, that would be
> > creepy... Removing this, or any other site, from our network wouldn't
> > remove the content from the Internet: it would simply slow its
> > performance and make it more vulnerable to attack. ”
> >
> > In his response, Prince also asserted:
> >>
> >> “A website is speech. It is not a bomb. There is no imminent danger
> >> it creates and no provider has an affirmative obligation to monitor
> >> and make determinations about the theoretically harmful nature of
> >> speech a site may contain... There are lots of things on the web I
> >> find personally distasteful. I have political beliefs, but I don't
> >> believe those beliefs should color what is and is not allowed to flow
> >> over the network. As we have blogged about  before,  we  often  find
> >> ourselves  on  opposite  sides  of  political  conflicts.
> >> Fundamentally, we are consistent in the fact that our political
> >> beliefs will not color who we allow to be fast and safe on the web. ”
> >
> >
> > In June 2010, in the context of the case of Holder v. Humanitarian Law
> > Project, the U.S. Supreme Court upheld a strict view of the “expert
> > advice and assistance” clause of U.S. counter-terrorism laws, making
> > even nonviolent advocacy potentially an illicit form of material
> > support if it is carried out in conjunction with a proscribed
> > terrorist organization. The case had specifically centered on a group
> > of American civil rights activists who advertised their mission as
> > helping such groups “find peaceful ways to achieve [their] goals.”
> >
> > It is extremely difficult to reconcile the logical paradox that it is
> > currently illegal to give pro-bono assistance to a terrorist group in
> > order for them to adopt politics instead of violence, but it is
> > perfectly legal for CloudFlare to commercially profit from a terrorist
> > group by assisting them to communicate securely with recruits and to
> > publicly disseminate recordings of mass murder. Indeed, CloudFlare CEO
> > Matthew Prince has been adamant in his declarations that “ CloudFlare
> > abides by all applicable laws in the countries in which we operate and
> > we firmly support the due process of law.” Prince continues to insist,
> > “ We have never received a request to terminate the site in question
> > from any law enforcement authority, let alone a valid order from a
> > court.”
> >
> > In deference to CloudFlare, it is possible that the company has
> > received a formal request from law enforcement to continue providing
> > its services to such an illicit online forum.  Yet, even as one who
> > has repeatedly advocated leaving jihadi forums online in order to
> > study those who use them, this possibility gives me pause for
> > reflection.  If so, there must be a careful assessment of the
> > potential negative policy impacts of leaving ISIS recruitment
> > platforms online and unmolested in light of the recognition that
> > Western security services are abjectly failing to track, identify, and
> > stop all of those who are using these sites.  If so, there must be a
> > careful assessment of the potential negative policy impacts of leaving
> > ISIS recruitment platforms online and unmolested in light of the
> > recognition that Western security services are abjectly failing to
> > track, identify, and stop all of those who are using these sites.
> >
> Testimony of Evan F. Kohlmann with Laith Alkhouri and Alexandra Kassirer
>
> Before the House Committee on Foreign Affairs Subcommittee on Terrorism,
> Nonproliferation, and Trade
>
> "The Evolution of Terrorist Propaganda: The Paris Attack and Social Media"
>
>
> http://docs.house.gov/meetings/FA/FA18/20150127/102855/HHRG-114-FA18-Wstate-KohlmannE-20150127.pdf
>
>
>


-- 
Twitter <https://twitter.com/tbiehn> | LinkedIn
<http://www.linkedin.com/in/travisbiehn> | GitHub <http://github.com/tbiehn>
| TravisBiehn.com <http://www.travisbiehn.com> | Google Plus
<https://plus.google.com/+TravisBiehn>
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From coderman at gmail.com  Fri Oct  9 16:28:42 2015
From: coderman at gmail.com (coderman)
Date: Fri, 9 Oct 2015 16:28:42 -0700
Subject: [cryptome] Cryptome has been leaking its user logs for over a year
In-Reply-To: <CAJVRA1TUXrFG9FqzbRF+-yTL8t33qJOTLS5pm=M666-gqvi6JA@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CANFTA0-cdkCMffk1v_cFjYEJ7sq3d=4_V+Vw0Ucgu-fN8ga0-A@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAJVRA1TUXrFG9FqzbRF+-yTL8t33qJOTLS5pm=M666-gqvi6JA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAJVRA1RoJBTn4OaOXYKcHtyS7LwxGThpqMr5Tud4KwHUEPvFdw@mail.gmail.com>

On 10/9/15, coderman <coderman at gmail.com> wrote:
> ...
> 0eb8551d977dde4f4193b3a16dedcd18f01e854e371e96623d33dd5b9519e413  USB-1.rar


see attached.  then xref with Tor exit db :P


best regards,
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From themikebest at gmail.com  Fri Oct  9 13:32:58 2015
From: themikebest at gmail.com (Michael Best)
Date: Fri, 9 Oct 2015 16:32:58 -0400
Subject: Cryptome admits they leaked their logs (WAS: [cryptome] Cryptome
 has been leaking its user logs for over a year)
In-Reply-To: <CANFTA0_R68-G7FfrHzTs3tdMRNfeyi3RKLYuLG0ALRBVbodoVw@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CANFTA0_R68-G7FfrHzTs3tdMRNfeyi3RKLYuLG0ALRBVbodoVw@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CANFTA0-FDErENX-t_iV2gOwh5qy8KcTazo8JRScbJUZP9pjkEw@mail.gmail.com>

I feel obligated to clarify. Cryptome has said ""Admission of leaked logs"
is rather generously overstated of what we specifically understated."
and "Rigged
and disinfo remain valid. You overstated the disclosure. Leaking is press
exaggeration."

https://twitter.com/Cryptomeorg/status/652581186036989953
https://twitter.com/Cryptomeorg/status/652581918215684096

Not sure how I was right AND the info is rigged and disinfo...

On Fri, Oct 9, 2015 at 1:51 PM, Michael Best <themikebest at gmail.com> wrote:

> Most up to date version:
> http://that1archive.neocities.org/subfolder1/cryptome-admits-leak.html
>
>
> Before reading this, I recommend reading my first post raising concerns
> that the alleged GCHQ Cryptome slide from could be a mockup
> <http://that1archive.neocities.org/subfolder1/gchq-cryptome-slide.html>,
> followed by my disclosure of Cryptome's leaked user logs
> <http://that1archive.neocities.org/subfolder1/cryptome-leaked-logs.html>.
>
> After refusing to comment
> <http://web.archive.org/web/20151009170831/https:/twitter.com/Cryptomeorg/status/651652489704554497>,
> denying it, accusing it of being disinfo
> <http://web.archive.org/web/20151009170829/https:/twitter.com/Cryptomeorg/status/651838022909054978>,
> accusing me of stealing data
> <http://web.archive.org/web/20151007134316/https:/twitter.com/Cryptomeorg/status/651751155962396674>,
> accusing me of being a newbie advertising for a spy job
> <http://web.archive.org/web/20151009170826/https:/twitter.com/Cryptomeorg/status/651890295072755712>,
> declaring that it was "a campaign" against them
> <https://cpunks.org/pipermail/cypherpunks/2015-October/009681.html>,
> accusing me of faking data
> <http://web.archive.org/web/20151008125804/https:/twitter.com/Cryptomeorg/status/651777707873837056>,
> declaring that all logs leak and they pay for the internet
> <http://web.archive.org/web/20151009170824/https:/twitter.com/Cryptomeorg/status/652067337621929984>,
> and deleting my post
> <https://twitter.com/NatSecGeek/status/651907692081115137> to the
> Cryptome mailing list
> <https://cpunks.org/pipermail/cypherpunks/2015-October/009684.html> alerting
> them to the leak, Cryptome has acknowledged that the leaked logs I found
> were legitimate. John Young/Cryptome then thanked me, which is apology
> enough for all the accusations.
>
> Date: Fri, 09 Oct 2015 11:54:05 -0400
> To: Michael Best
> From: John Young
> Subject: Cartome AWStats
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> *You were right about AWStats data. Not the stats for Cryptome itself but
> for the Cartome sub-directory, for four months, November 2009-February
> 2010. Included in a full site restoration by ISP NetSol after a full
> shutdown in June 2013.The stats have been deleted from the Cryptome
> archive. Probably best to not expose visitors' data further but then
> nothing can be fully deleted or hidden.Thanks for discovering and reporting
> in this.Publish this message if you like.Regards,John*
>
> Immediately after receiving his email, I deleted the stat files from my
> website. They were only published to force verification and public
> disclosure about the leak. Now that it has been acknowledged, there's no
> point in continuing to distribute them. If John provides a new
> cryptographically signed Cryptome archive file without those logs, I will
> replace the one hosted on Archive.org with the new, sanitized version. Note
> that .7z may be best to prevent the archive's deriving process (it makes
> individual files within the zip viewable) from making changes to the .zip
> file which can cause it to no longer match the hash/cryptographic signature.
> What does this mean for the slide that seems to show GCHQ spying on
> Cryptome.org?
>
> According to John Young's email, the leak is limited to the Cartome
> sub-directory which would not include the Eyeball directory. However, the
> time frame matches up perfectly and does include the time period the slide
> appears to show. Determining whether or not the leak ever included the
> Eyeball directory, and why NetSol's glitch only restored those four months
> of the Cartome's stats to the Cryptome archive while trying to view a
> random selection of the leaked files on the online server failed, requires
> more information from NetSol, Cryptome's ISP. Inquiring about those details
> from NetSol and disclosing them falls entirely to John Young and Deborah
> Natsios. Presumably, John Young would have disclosed if a similar leak had
> been found relating to the Eyeball directory, but it remains possible that
> the information might have been deleted from the Cryptome archive prior
> to 2014-06-02
> <https://thepiratebay.se/torrent/11113511/Cryptome_archive_2014-06-02> without
> John realizing it had already leaked. More information will be required
> before those possibilities can be excluded.
>
> As of the time of this posting (13:45 Eastern October 9, 2015), John Young
> has not added anything to his website, twitter account, or mailing lists
> disclosing the now confirmed leak to his users. He did remove the graphic
> advising his users that the GCHQ was/is allegedly monitoring them.
>
> <http://web.archive.org/web/20151007140432/https:/twitter.com/Cryptomeorg/status/644123971051474944>
>
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From guninski at guninski.com  Fri Oct  9 06:49:45 2015
From: guninski at guninski.com (Georgi Guninski)
Date: Fri, 9 Oct 2015 16:49:45 +0300
Subject: The GCHQ Cryptome slide could be a mockup/disinfo
In-Reply-To: <5617BA73.7050804@pilobilus.net>
References: <CANFTA0_rUNWVZ8jN=+=vPbQ2f+iTrRx6x1uZB+h61pKO56tXuw@mail.gmail.com>
 <20151008153729.GE2590@sivokote.iziade.m$>
 <20151008165339.CCFE9C0001A@frontend1.nyi.internal>
 <20151008105824.badf12c7552870001624480d@virtadpt.net>
 <5617BA73.7050804@pilobilus.net>
Message-ID: <20151009134945.GA2643@sivokote.iziade.m$>

On Fri, Oct 09, 2015 at 09:00:35AM -0400, Steve Kinney wrote:
> And all because somebody got bent out of shape over comments made
> re attempting to challenge the attribution of a "leaked" document?
>  That amounts to less than an ant fart in a tornado, in context?
> 
> Lest we forget, the original PRISM slides were, at minimum,
> heavily altered by the Guardian and/or Post.  Everyone who was
> paying any real attention at the time knows it.  No firestorm of
> controversy followed.
> 
> http://electrospaces.blogspot.nl/2013/06/are-nsas-prism-slides-photo
> shopped.html
> 
> ... although it did influence my own early conclusions about the
> Snowden Affair, which have evolved a bit in response to subsequent
> events.  Even so, I'm not the least embarrassed by any mistakes I
> may have made:
> 
> http://www.globalresearch.ca/nsa-deception-operation-questions-surro
> und-leaked-prism-documents-authenticity
> 
> :o)

Have you ever thought who profits from JYA selling already sniffed logs
and someone fabricating a GCHQ slide?

If Snowden is just fabricater/photoshoper why wikipedia claims:
https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Edward_Snowden&oldid=684683260

---
Criminal charge 	Theft of government property, unauthorized
communication of national defense information, and willful communication
of classified intelligence to an unauthorized person (June 2013).
---

Why they don't charge Snowden for fabricating/photoshoping?




From themikebest at gmail.com  Fri Oct  9 13:51:58 2015
From: themikebest at gmail.com (Michael Best)
Date: Fri, 9 Oct 2015 16:51:58 -0400
Subject: Cryptome admits they leaked their logs (WAS: [cryptome] Cryptome
 has been leaking its user logs for over a year)
In-Reply-To: <CAJVRA1TynSO7HJJH9LzSxQ6r9Sx-2Xng+QvtYzX4h4e7ppCEXQ@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CANFTA0_R68-G7FfrHzTs3tdMRNfeyi3RKLYuLG0ALRBVbodoVw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CANFTA0-FDErENX-t_iV2gOwh5qy8KcTazo8JRScbJUZP9pjkEw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAJVRA1TynSO7HJJH9LzSxQ6r9Sx-2Xng+QvtYzX4h4e7ppCEXQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CANFTA089mnSfPeZO1WKaMZ2iD9h2+mopUwFbae5cTyRqHqmb4g@mail.gmail.com>

Here is Cryptome's full set (so far) of post-admission replies. I'm unable
to make anything consistent out of it.

"Admission of leaked logs" is rather generously overstated of what we
specifically understated.
https://twitter.com/Cryptomeorg/status/652581186036989953
Me: You understated things? As in, left something(s) out??
Cryptome: Told what was needed to defuse your exaggeration and resist your
demands to auth visitors.
https://twitter.com/Cryptomeorg/status/652585088912355328

Note that Cryptome doesn't dispute the email that I quoted, which was copy
and pasted in it's entirety.


Rigged and disinfo remain valid. You overstated the disclosure. Leaking is
press exaggeration.
https://twitter.com/Cryptomeorg/status/652581918215684096

Nothing is ever deleted, that is subterfuge to escape culpability. You
ratted Cryptome visitors. Not the first or last.
https://twitter.com/Cryptomeorg/status/652582251805474816
*Note that Cryptome is definitely NOT using subterfuge to escape
culpability or advising users of the data leak/breach/compromise/whatever
spin word Cryptome wants to use.

Still refusing to validate what you faked, rigged and released. And will
not, it's your story, run with it.
https://twitter.com/Cryptomeorg/status/652583921352355840

Our claims remain valid despite the biased cherry-picking so beloved of
childish argumentum ad hominem -- Cicero's bitch.
https://twitter.com/Cryptomeorg/status/652579919340421120


On Fri, Oct 9, 2015 at 4:45 PM, coderman <coderman at gmail.com> wrote:

> On 10/9/15, Michael Best <themikebest at gmail.com> wrote:
> > ...
> > Not sure how I was right AND the info is rigged and disinfo...
>
> QUANTUMSQUIRREL casts suspicion, just like shade, too.
>
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From shelley at misanthropia.org  Fri Oct  9 17:22:21 2015
From: shelley at misanthropia.org (Shelley)
Date: Fri, 09 Oct 2015 17:22:21 -0700
Subject: [cryptome] Re: [cryptome]
In-Reply-To: <BLU179-W65FA140E1BFC280A1D3C99FC340@phx.gbl>
References: <CANFTA08gfB-EM8yNwPbF2dv-Kv8EyygQqDdK9MUfDNYg=G8Emg@mail.gmail.com>
 <BLU179-W65FA140E1BFC280A1D3C99FC340@phx.gbl>
Message-ID: <20151010002205.4B848C00026@frontend1.nyi.internal>

On October 9, 2015 4:51:44 PM Jeremy Compton <j.compton at outlook.com> wrote:

> I am not surprised that GCHQ does what you claim it does.
>

Have you read about this from the beginning?  If so, you'd know that Mike 
Best is not the one claiming that the GCHQ slide is real.  He is trying to 
establish whether nearly anyone could have made the slide with the logs 
Cryptome leaked/distributed/whatever, unwittingly or otherwise.  That's 
all, and I don't know how a researcher trying to verify data has become a 
giant shitstorm.

-S

> Date: Fri, 9 Oct 2015 19:11:50 -0400
> Subject: [cryptome]
> From: themikebest at gmail.com
> To: cryptome at freelists.org
>
> To the original point, the GCHQ Snowden slide. Cryptome accusing me of 
> faking the data was a diversion. Only had to verify it because of the GCHQ 
> slide.
> From: Jeremy Compton <j.compton at xxxxxxxxxxx>To: "cryptome at xxxxxxxxxxxxx" 
> <cryptome at xxxxxxxxxxxxx>Date: Sat, 10 Oct 2015 12:00:48 +1300So, now you 
> have named and shamed Cryptome for this grievance you have, whereto
> know?
>  		 	   		





From themikebest at gmail.com  Fri Oct  9 14:29:45 2015
From: themikebest at gmail.com (Michael Best)
Date: Fri, 9 Oct 2015 17:29:45 -0400
Subject: Cryptome flip flops then edits their Wikipedia page. Again. (WAS Re:
 Cryptome admits they leaked their logs)
Message-ID: <CANFTA08ww2xuh+rhz_akKMQv4Lpp6nEs-iOyAOPGBuNE9HxfqA@mail.gmail.com>

After denying the leaked logs, then acknowleding them, then denying them
again, Cryptome edits their own Wikipedia page. *Again.*
https://twitter.com/NatSecGeek/status/652593111881908224

Next time, raise issues on the article's talk page with sources. This isn't
the first time and it's a major breach of protocol for Wikipedia.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Conflict_of_interest


This is the first time Wikipedia's watchlist has caught an edit I found
interesting.

--Mike

On Fri, Oct 9, 2015 at 4:51 PM, Michael Best <themikebest at gmail.com> wrote:

> Here is Cryptome's full set (so far) of post-admission replies. I'm unable
> to make anything consistent out of it.
>
> "Admission of leaked logs" is rather generously overstated of what we
> specifically understated.
> https://twitter.com/Cryptomeorg/status/652581186036989953
> Me: You understated things? As in, left something(s) out??
> Cryptome: Told what was needed to defuse your exaggeration and resist
> your demands to auth visitors.
> https://twitter.com/Cryptomeorg/status/652585088912355328
>
> Note that Cryptome doesn't dispute the email that I quoted, which was copy
> and pasted in it's entirety.
>
>
> Rigged and disinfo remain valid. You overstated the disclosure. Leaking is
> press exaggeration.
> https://twitter.com/Cryptomeorg/status/652581918215684096
>
> Nothing is ever deleted, that is subterfuge to escape culpability. You
> ratted Cryptome visitors. Not the first or last.
> https://twitter.com/Cryptomeorg/status/652582251805474816
> *Note that Cryptome is definitely NOT using subterfuge to escape
> culpability or advising users of the data leak/breach/compromise/whatever
> spin word Cryptome wants to use.
>
> Still refusing to validate what you faked, rigged and released. And will
> not, it's your story, run with it.
> https://twitter.com/Cryptomeorg/status/652583921352355840
>
> Our claims remain valid despite the biased cherry-picking so beloved of
> childish argumentum ad hominem -- Cicero's bitch.
> https://twitter.com/Cryptomeorg/status/652579919340421120
>
>
> On Fri, Oct 9, 2015 at 4:45 PM, coderman <coderman at gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> On 10/9/15, Michael Best <themikebest at gmail.com> wrote:
>> > ...
>> > Not sure how I was right AND the info is rigged and disinfo...
>>
>> QUANTUMSQUIRREL casts suspicion, just like shade, too.
>>
>
>
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From coderman at gmail.com  Fri Oct  9 17:30:21 2015
From: coderman at gmail.com (coderman)
Date: Fri, 9 Oct 2015 17:30:21 -0700
Subject: [cryptome] Re: [cryptome] Yay: [cryptome]
Message-ID: <CAJVRA1T16mGyUwYP7etk2+pYn_hsfr+iajmg4zidims-66Am+A@mail.gmail.com>

On 10/9/15, Shelley <shelley at misanthropia.org> wrote:
> ... I don't know how a researcher trying to verify data has become a
> giant shitstorm.

the precariousness of life is exactly why i savor such enjoyments,
 such as this turd turbulence in the absurdist library...

:P


best regards,




From themikebest at gmail.com  Fri Oct  9 14:36:04 2015
From: themikebest at gmail.com (Michael Best)
Date: Fri, 9 Oct 2015 17:36:04 -0400
Subject: Cryptome admits they leaked their logs (WAS: [cryptome] Cryptome
 has been leaking its user logs for over a year)
In-Reply-To: <CANFTA089mnSfPeZO1WKaMZ2iD9h2+mopUwFbae5cTyRqHqmb4g@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CANFTA0_R68-G7FfrHzTs3tdMRNfeyi3RKLYuLG0ALRBVbodoVw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CANFTA0-FDErENX-t_iV2gOwh5qy8KcTazo8JRScbJUZP9pjkEw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAJVRA1TynSO7HJJH9LzSxQ6r9Sx-2Xng+QvtYzX4h4e7ppCEXQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <CANFTA089mnSfPeZO1WKaMZ2iD9h2+mopUwFbae5cTyRqHqmb4g@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CANFTA08NGjko2XQf177ivjGtUSHqyE+Fb78YkFqmzQ92xDEjag@mail.gmail.com>

Cryptome just deleted all the quoted tweets for some reason. Weird, right?
Well, here are the archived versions.

http://web.archive.org/web/20151009203031/https://twitter.com/Cryptomeorg/status/652581186036989953
http://web.archive.org/web/20151009204359/https:/twitter.com/Cryptomeorg/status/652585088912355328
http://web.archive.org/web/20151009204359/https://twitter.com/Cryptomeorg/status/652581918215684096
http://web.archive.org/web/20151009203916/https:/twitter.com/Cryptomeorg/status/652583921352355840
http://web.archive.org/web/20151009210749/https://twitter.com/Cryptomeorg/status/652579919340421120

Looks like I forgot to archive
https://twitter.com/Cryptomeorg/status/652582251805474816. Oh well. You get
the idea.


On Fri, Oct 9, 2015 at 4:51 PM, Michael Best <themikebest at gmail.com> wrote:

> Here is Cryptome's full set (so far) of post-admission replies. I'm unable
> to make anything consistent out of it.
>
> "Admission of leaked logs" is rather generously overstated of what we
> specifically understated.
> https://twitter.com/Cryptomeorg/status/652581186036989953
> Me: You understated things? As in, left something(s) out??
> Cryptome: Told what was needed to defuse your exaggeration and resist
> your demands to auth visitors.
> https://twitter.com/Cryptomeorg/status/652585088912355328
>
> Note that Cryptome doesn't dispute the email that I quoted, which was copy
> and pasted in it's entirety.
>
>
> Rigged and disinfo remain valid. You overstated the disclosure. Leaking is
> press exaggeration.
> https://twitter.com/Cryptomeorg/status/652581918215684096
>
> Nothing is ever deleted, that is subterfuge to escape culpability. You
> ratted Cryptome visitors. Not the first or last.
> https://twitter.com/Cryptomeorg/status/652582251805474816
> *Note that Cryptome is definitely NOT using subterfuge to escape
> culpability or advising users of the data leak/breach/compromise/whatever
> spin word Cryptome wants to use.
>
> Still refusing to validate what you faked, rigged and released. And will
> not, it's your story, run with it.
> https://twitter.com/Cryptomeorg/status/652583921352355840
>
> Our claims remain valid despite the biased cherry-picking so beloved of
> childish argumentum ad hominem -- Cicero's bitch.
> https://twitter.com/Cryptomeorg/status/652579919340421120
>
>
> On Fri, Oct 9, 2015 at 4:45 PM, coderman <coderman at gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> On 10/9/15, Michael Best <themikebest at gmail.com> wrote:
>> > ...
>> > Not sure how I was right AND the info is rigged and disinfo...
>>
>> QUANTUMSQUIRREL casts suspicion, just like shade, too.
>>
>
>
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From shelley at misanthropia.org  Fri Oct  9 18:21:55 2015
From: shelley at misanthropia.org (Shelley)
Date: Fri, 09 Oct 2015 18:21:55 -0700
Subject: [cryptome] Re: [cryptome]
In-Reply-To: <5618658A.3070206@riseup.net>
References: <CANFTA08gfB-EM8yNwPbF2dv-Kv8EyygQqDdK9MUfDNYg=G8Emg@mail.gmail.com>
 <BLU179-W65FA140E1BFC280A1D3C99FC340@phx.gbl>
 <20151010002205.4B848C00026@frontend1.nyi.internal>
 <5618658A.3070206@riseup.net>
Message-ID: <20151010012138.EFC3BC00013@frontend1.nyi.internal>

On October 9, 2015 6:16:10 PM Mirimir <mirimir at riseup.net> wrote:

 > Maybe because Mike _published_ the fucking logs, just because JYA was
> doing the mirror shades thing about whether the archive was or was not
> genuine? I mean, JYA can be a very funny man. For sure. But does that
> justify publishing Cryptome access logs?
>

When the logs have been distributed by Cryptome via USB and torrents as 
part of the archive for over a year?  Yeah, it's fair game.

Note that he removed those files once JY finally gave an explanation.





From mirimir at riseup.net  Fri Oct  9 17:58:39 2015
From: mirimir at riseup.net (Mirimir)
Date: Fri, 9 Oct 2015 18:58:39 -0600
Subject: [cryptome] Cryptome has been leaking its user logs for over a year
In-Reply-To: <5142947.VjethuF63H@lapuntu>
References: <CANFTA0-4ZDCq-QMAj=KeT7i00OUvBWCZ2VM32HHsnzMiUhkMeg@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAJVRA1TAeEfByH4n=OUyBVQZJT+gBK4yENjjtTBwmxGN_wbH4A@mail.gmail.com>
 <56172A5E.6060907@riseup.net> <5142947.VjethuF63H@lapuntu>
Message-ID: <561862BF.8020408@riseup.net>

On 10/09/2015 03:52 AM, rysiek wrote:
> Dnia czwartek, 8 października 2015 20:45:50 Mirimir pisze:
>> On 10/08/2015 07:42 PM, coderman wrote:
>>> On 10/7/15, Michael Best <themikebest at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>> Let me begin by saying that Cryptome initially denied the leak, then that
>>>> the data was stolen, then that the whole thing was a fake "a lie by [a]
>>>> spy-newbie."
>>>
>>> the lie is assuming these requests over plain-text were ever private :P
>>
>> That is the key point!
>>
>> And anyway, all traffic to all websites is public.
> 
> Oh for fucks' sake. There are fuckers who do listen in and surveil, etc, but 
> it is *not* okay to make their work easier. And it is *not* okay to make one's 
> server logs broadly available in such a context.

Look, Cryptome did fuck up. First, by keeping logs for more than a day
or so, whatever necessary for debugging and responding to attacks.
Second, by sending them to a third party. And third, by being so obtuse
with that third party that he felt compelled to publish them.

> Why the fuck are people on this list slamming Snowden and freedom.press for 
> using Cloudflare, and at the same time defending JYA for sending out server 
> logs with dates and IP addresses?

You'll never catch me slamming Snowden or defending JYA ;) And I gotta
say, Cloudflare starts looking good when your site is getting DOSed.

> The hell is this bullshit?

Bullshit, mostly ;)




From mirimir at riseup.net  Fri Oct  9 18:10:34 2015
From: mirimir at riseup.net (Mirimir)
Date: Fri, 9 Oct 2015 19:10:34 -0600
Subject: [cryptome] Re: [cryptome]
In-Reply-To: <20151010002205.4B848C00026@frontend1.nyi.internal>
References: <CANFTA08gfB-EM8yNwPbF2dv-Kv8EyygQqDdK9MUfDNYg=G8Emg@mail.gmail.com>
 <BLU179-W65FA140E1BFC280A1D3C99FC340@phx.gbl>
 <20151010002205.4B848C00026@frontend1.nyi.internal>
Message-ID: <5618658A.3070206@riseup.net>

On 10/09/2015 06:22 PM, Shelley wrote:
> On October 9, 2015 4:51:44 PM Jeremy Compton <j.compton at outlook.com> wrote:
> 
>> I am not surprised that GCHQ does what you claim it does.
>>
> 
> Have you read about this from the beginning?  If so, you'd know that
> Mike Best is not the one claiming that the GCHQ slide is real.  He is
> trying to establish whether nearly anyone could have made the slide with
> the logs Cryptome leaked/distributed/whatever, unwittingly or
> otherwise.  That's all, and I don't know how a researcher trying to
> verify data has become a giant shitstorm.

Maybe because Mike _published_ the fucking logs, just because JYA was
doing the mirror shades thing about whether the archive was or was not
genuine? I mean, JYA can be a very funny man. For sure. But does that
justify publishing Cryptome access logs?

> -S
> 
>> Date: Fri, 9 Oct 2015 19:11:50 -0400
>> Subject: [cryptome]
>> From: themikebest at gmail.com
>> To: cryptome at freelists.org
>>
>> To the original point, the GCHQ Snowden slide. Cryptome accusing me of
>> faking the data was a diversion. Only had to verify it because of the
>> GCHQ slide.
>> From: Jeremy Compton <j.compton at xxxxxxxxxxx>To:
>> "cryptome at xxxxxxxxxxxxx" <cryptome at xxxxxxxxxxxxx>Date: Sat, 10 Oct
>> 2015 12:00:48 +1300So, now you have named and shamed Cryptome for this
>> grievance you have, whereto
>> know?
>>                         
> 
> 
> 




From shelley at misanthropia.org  Fri Oct  9 19:38:51 2015
From: shelley at misanthropia.org (Shelley)
Date: Fri, 09 Oct 2015 19:38:51 -0700
Subject: [cryptome] Re: [cryptome]
In-Reply-To: <561876FB.7080302@riseup.net>
References: <CANFTA08gfB-EM8yNwPbF2dv-Kv8EyygQqDdK9MUfDNYg=G8Emg@mail.gmail.com>
 <BLU179-W65FA140E1BFC280A1D3C99FC340@phx.gbl>
 <20151010002205.4B848C00026@frontend1.nyi.internal>
 <5618658A.3070206@riseup.net>
 <20151010012138.EFC3BC00013@frontend1.nyi.internal>
 <561876FB.7080302@riseup.net>
Message-ID: <20151010023835.1F80C680113@frontend2.nyi.internal>

On October 9, 2015 7:30:28 PM Mirimir <mirimir at riseup.net> wrote:

> On 10/09/2015 07:21 PM, Shelley wrote:
> > On October 9, 2015 6:16:10 PM Mirimir <mirimir at riseup.net> wrote:
> >
> >> Maybe because Mike _published_ the fucking logs, just because JYA was
> >> doing the mirror shades thing about whether the archive was or was not
> >> genuine? I mean, JYA can be a very funny man. For sure. But does that
> >> justify publishing Cryptome access logs?
> >>
> >
> > When the logs have been distributed by Cryptome via USB and torrents as
> > part of the archive for over a year?  Yeah, it's fair game.
>
> If that's true, JYA was being either unimaginably stupid, or
> unimaginably weird. Still, there was no need to publish the logs just to
> make a point. Redacted excerpts and hashes of the files would have been
> enough, no?

He did post a redacted version.  Then JYA accused him of everything from 
faking the data to being a spy.

When we post about vulns on FD/ wherever, we follow the process of 
notifying and following up before posting publicly - which we only do when 
devs or corps refuse to acknowledge or outright deny.  Right?  That's 
exactly how he went about it, and then was attacked in a most nonsensical 
manner (we didn't even get a notorious JYA poetic diatribe!)

In addition, as previously mentioned, these datasets have been in the wild 
for > 1yr.  As someone who may have found my own data in the access logs, I 
still say he did the right thing.


>
> > Note that he removed those files once JY finally gave an explanation.
>
> True. But publishing them was still unwarranted.





From mirimir at riseup.net  Fri Oct  9 19:15:01 2015
From: mirimir at riseup.net (Mirimir)
Date: Fri, 9 Oct 2015 20:15:01 -0600
Subject: [cryptome] Re: [cryptome]
In-Reply-To: <CANFTA0-qPf1VhateDGgbWRuxTrua4H7fqVXJVGsg+Upx-WwfGw@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CANFTA0-qPf1VhateDGgbWRuxTrua4H7fqVXJVGsg+Upx-WwfGw@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <561874A5.3060704@riseup.net>

On 10/09/2015 07:19 PM, Michael Best wrote:
>>
>> Maybe because Mike _published_ the fucking logs, just because JYA was
>> doing the mirror shades thing about whether the archive was or was not
>> genuine? I mean, JYA can be a very funny man. For sure. But does that
>> justify publishing Cryptome access logs?
> 
> 
> I published them to verify the data, *AFTER JYA publicly accused me of
> FAKING it.* I only raised the point of the logs because of the GCHQ slide. *If
> *John had verified it a week earlier, or not accused me of faking data
> (with ZERO evidence, and the data turns out to be legit) *they never
> would've been published. *

Publishing them was still unwarranted. You could have published a
redacted version. You could have polled this list, and verified selected
lines. Whatever. Yes, JYA was being a jerk. But still ...




From mirimir at riseup.net  Fri Oct  9 19:24:59 2015
From: mirimir at riseup.net (Mirimir)
Date: Fri, 9 Oct 2015 20:24:59 -0600
Subject: [cryptome] Re: [cryptome]
In-Reply-To: <20151010012138.EFC3BC00013@frontend1.nyi.internal>
References: <CANFTA08gfB-EM8yNwPbF2dv-Kv8EyygQqDdK9MUfDNYg=G8Emg@mail.gmail.com>
 <BLU179-W65FA140E1BFC280A1D3C99FC340@phx.gbl>
 <20151010002205.4B848C00026@frontend1.nyi.internal>
 <5618658A.3070206@riseup.net>
 <20151010012138.EFC3BC00013@frontend1.nyi.internal>
Message-ID: <561876FB.7080302@riseup.net>

On 10/09/2015 07:21 PM, Shelley wrote:
> On October 9, 2015 6:16:10 PM Mirimir <mirimir at riseup.net> wrote:
> 
>> Maybe because Mike _published_ the fucking logs, just because JYA was
>> doing the mirror shades thing about whether the archive was or was not
>> genuine? I mean, JYA can be a very funny man. For sure. But does that
>> justify publishing Cryptome access logs?
>>
> 
> When the logs have been distributed by Cryptome via USB and torrents as
> part of the archive for over a year?  Yeah, it's fair game.

If that's true, JYA was being either unimaginably stupid, or
unimaginably weird. Still, there was no need to publish the logs just to
make a point. Redacted excerpts and hashes of the files would have been
enough, no?

> Note that he removed those files once JY finally gave an explanation.

True. But publishing them was still unwarranted.




From mirimir at riseup.net  Fri Oct  9 19:44:15 2015
From: mirimir at riseup.net (Mirimir)
Date: Fri, 9 Oct 2015 20:44:15 -0600
Subject: [cryptome] Re: [cryptome]
In-Reply-To: <CANFTA09zAMgyY2jv0LbR+auR+LaPGo764R1LX9Xxh2Fm8-_N7g@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CANFTA0-qPf1VhateDGgbWRuxTrua4H7fqVXJVGsg+Upx-WwfGw@mail.gmail.com>
 <561874A5.3060704@riseup.net>
 <CANFTA09zAMgyY2jv0LbR+auR+LaPGo764R1LX9Xxh2Fm8-_N7g@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <56187B7F.6060008@riseup.net>

On 10/09/2015 08:21 PM, Michael Best wrote:
>>
>> Publishing them was still unwarranted. You could have published a
>> redacted version. You could have polled this list, and verified selected
>> lines. Whatever. Yes, JYA was being a jerk. But still ...
> 
> *Umm, I *did* post a redacted version first.* JYA said it was faked
> and refused to verify it until days after it had been published in its
> entirety. I even told him before hand that if he didn't verify it, I'd
> have to post it. He still called it disinfo and fake until well after
> it'd been released and confirmed as the files being un multiple
> releases, including an old torrent.

Sorry. I had forgotten that. But once it was clear that multiple copies
were out there, I don't get the point of publishing your own copy. Maybe
by then, it was a moot point. And still, it was a bad move, if only for
you, in that you come across as imprudent.

> On Fri, Oct 9, 2015 at 10:15 PM, Mirimir <mirimir at riseup.net> wrote:
> 
>> On 10/09/2015 07:19 PM, Michael Best wrote:
>>>>
>>>> Maybe because Mike _published_ the fucking logs, just because JYA was
>>>> doing the mirror shades thing about whether the archive was or was not
>>>> genuine? I mean, JYA can be a very funny man. For sure. But does that
>>>> justify publishing Cryptome access logs?
>>>
>>>
>>> I published them to verify the data, *AFTER JYA publicly accused me of
>>> FAKING it.* I only raised the point of the logs because of the GCHQ
>> slide. *If
>>> *John had verified it a week earlier, or not accused me of faking data
>>> (with ZERO evidence, and the data turns out to be legit) *they never
>>> would've been published. *
>>
>> Publishing them was still unwarranted. You could have published a
>> redacted version. You could have polled this list, and verified selected
>> lines. Whatever. Yes, JYA was being a jerk. But still ...
>>
>>
> 




From mirimir at riseup.net  Fri Oct  9 19:56:39 2015
From: mirimir at riseup.net (Mirimir)
Date: Fri, 9 Oct 2015 20:56:39 -0600
Subject: [cryptome] Re: [cryptome]
In-Reply-To: <CANFTA08aZwfZHF=wL8mV_8qhijK39RfALQ7HfoTOb+eVsHgYjQ@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CANFTA08aZwfZHF=wL8mV_8qhijK39RfALQ7HfoTOb+eVsHgYjQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <56187E67.5090905@riseup.net>

On 10/09/2015 08:31 PM, Michael Best wrote:
>>
>> If that's true, JYA was being either unimaginably stupid, or
>> unimaginably weird. Still, there was no need to publish the logs just to
>> make a point. Redacted excerpts and hashes of the files would have been
>> enough, no?
> 
> 
> True and documented, and as I said in my last email - I DID REDACT THEM.
> John *still* denied they were real and accused me of faking them.

In my world, people don't publish stuff that puts their [friends,
allies, fellow travelers, etc] at risk. Even to make a point. Even if
other assholes have already put that stuff out there. Documenting JYA's
fuckup was fine. Just as with any bug, vulnerability, etc. But as I've
said a few times, publishing the data was unwarranted.

> On Fri, Oct 9, 2015 at 10:25 PM, <cypherpunks-request at cpunks.org> wrote:
> 
>> Send cypherpunks mailing list submissions to
>>         cypherpunks at cpunks.org
>>
>> To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit
>>         https://cpunks.org/mailman/listinfo/cypherpunks
>> or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to
>>         cypherpunks-request at cpunks.org
>>
>> You can reach the person managing the list at
>>         cypherpunks-owner at cpunks.org
>>
>> When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific
>> than "Re: Contents of cypherpunks digest..."
>>
>>
>> Today's Topics:
>>
>>    1. Re: [cryptome] Cryptome has been leaking its user logs for
>>       over a year (coderman)
>>    2. Re: [cryptome] Re: [cryptome] (Shelley)
>>    3. Re: [cryptome] Re: [cryptome] Yay: [cryptome] (coderman)
>>    4. Re: [cryptome] Cryptome has been leaking its user logs for
>>       over a year (Mirimir)
>>    5. Re: [cryptome] Re: [cryptome] (Mirimir)
>>    6. [cryptome] Re: [cryptome] (Michael Best)
>>    7. Re: [cryptome] Re: [cryptome] (Shelley)
>>    8. Re: [cryptome] Re: [cryptome] (Mirimir)
>>    9. Re: [cryptome] Re: [cryptome] (Michael Best)
>>   10. Re: [cryptome] Re: [cryptome] (Mirimir)
>>
>>
>> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
>>
>> Message: 1
>> Date: Fri, 9 Oct 2015 16:28:42 -0700
>> From: coderman <coderman at gmail.com>
>> To: Michael Best <themikebest at gmail.com>
>> Cc: cypherpunks at cpunks.org
>> Subject: Re: [cryptome] Cryptome has been leaking its user logs for
>>         over a year
>> Message-ID:
>>         <
>> CAJVRA1RoJBTn4OaOXYKcHtyS7LwxGThpqMr5Tud4KwHUEPvFdw at mail.gmail.com>
>> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"
>>
>> On 10/9/15, coderman <coderman at gmail.com> wrote:
>>> ...
>>> 0eb8551d977dde4f4193b3a16dedcd18f01e854e371e96623d33dd5b9519e413
>> USB-1.rar
>>
>>
>> see attached.  then xref with Tor exit db :P
>>
>>
>> best regards,
>> -------------- next part --------------
>> # USB-1/Disk
>> 2/07-Cryptome-org-13-0702-cartome-directory/07-Cryptome-org-13-0702-cartome-directory/07-Cryptome-org-13-0702-cartome-directory/awstats
>> e013b32176f9ebfb6a235de6929a38cd3b1ba3fd9546fa633a4380519577da34
>> ./.access.pwd
>> b16367d1eb9ca9ace9d21f8b96d703d9e336037c41586f5d66ec9adc4e66b43c
>> ./.htaccess
>> 093154a05f46ed7de77882e6dd3fb90c9fee53deb3cf46cf3e13a4f23fcff6ed
>> ./0911/awstats.1331504.0911.alldomains.html
>> 0392478bb58c6e0e7c41064185bd485fd799b86ee0db03b0eeda08c6003f3c7a
>> ./0911/awstats.1331504.0911.allhosts.html
>> a5ffab80b59fe8d1ab17e115895d2da077b9f1cf96ed05b9f936e676f1933e0e
>> ./0911/awstats.1331504.0911.allrobots.html
>> afa0ab42cd92f5d1aec75b0051596488721349657865a8da63be3e6f54375c5e
>> ./0911/awstats.1331504.0911.browserdetail.html
>> 6c4ce20030bde571b90315874d416583dd38c0031c264a586e8bb1ca9b7c6ac5
>> ./0911/awstats.1331504.0911.errors404.html
>> 0da1dd9013f9ce75b202d3390246bdfe70aad28bcf09f9737aaa65f73925433d
>> ./0911/awstats.1331504.0911.html
>> d6d43d9bedb2c7ce6ec4d374c09aca4a26ffd57e027f197bb7d0bcf000b12ae4
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>> ./awstats112009.1331504.txt
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>> ./awstats122009.1331504.txt
>> fdbb1f8f8befa5ffb1251d2bc54adbec48713c44b907fb8b90c31a0470266fa5
>> ./home.htm
>> f3abfdb5362d02f2d6601e3dadb97f4329bcc46fa3de39d4e155914352f305eb
>> ./index.shtml
>>
>> ------------------------------
>>
>> Message: 2
>> Date: Fri, 09 Oct 2015 17:22:21 -0700
>> From: Shelley <shelley at misanthropia.org>
>> To: <cryptome at freelists.org>, cypherpunks <cypherpunks at cpunks.org>
>> Subject: Re: [cryptome] Re: [cryptome]
>> Message-ID: <20151010002205.4B848C00026 at frontend1.nyi.internal>
>> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed
>>
>> On October 9, 2015 4:51:44 PM Jeremy Compton <j.compton at outlook.com>
>> wrote:
>>
>>> I am not surprised that GCHQ does what you claim it does.
>>>
>>
>> Have you read about this from the beginning?  If so, you'd know that Mike
>> Best is not the one claiming that the GCHQ slide is real.  He is trying to
>> establish whether nearly anyone could have made the slide with the logs
>> Cryptome leaked/distributed/whatever, unwittingly or otherwise.  That's
>> all, and I don't know how a researcher trying to verify data has become a
>> giant shitstorm.
>>
>> -S
>>
>>> Date: Fri, 9 Oct 2015 19:11:50 -0400
>>> Subject: [cryptome]
>>> From: themikebest at gmail.com
>>> To: cryptome at freelists.org
>>>
>>> To the original point, the GCHQ Snowden slide. Cryptome accusing me of
>>> faking the data was a diversion. Only had to verify it because of the
>> GCHQ
>>> slide.
>>> From: Jeremy Compton <j.compton at xxxxxxxxxxx>To: "cryptome at xxxxxxxxxxxxx"
>>> <cryptome at xxxxxxxxxxxxx>Date: Sat, 10 Oct 2015 12:00:48 +1300So, now you
>>> have named and shamed Cryptome for this grievance you have, whereto
>>> know?
>>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> ------------------------------
>>
>> Message: 3
>> Date: Fri, 9 Oct 2015 17:30:21 -0700
>> From: coderman <coderman at gmail.com>
>> To: shelley at misanthropia.org
>> Cc: cypherpunks <cypherpunks at cpunks.org>, cryptome at freelists.org
>> Subject: Re: [cryptome] Re: [cryptome] Yay: [cryptome]
>> Message-ID:
>>         <
>> CAJVRA1T16mGyUwYP7etk2+pYn_hsfr+iajmg4zidims-66Am+A at mail.gmail.com>
>> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8
>>
>> On 10/9/15, Shelley <shelley at misanthropia.org> wrote:
>>> ... I don't know how a researcher trying to verify data has become a
>>> giant shitstorm.
>>
>> the precariousness of life is exactly why i savor such enjoyments,
>>  such as this turd turbulence in the absurdist library...
>>
>> :P
>>
>>
>> best regards,
>>
>>
>> ------------------------------
>>
>> Message: 4
>> Date: Fri, 9 Oct 2015 18:58:39 -0600
>> From: Mirimir <mirimir at riseup.net>
>> To: cypherpunks at cpunks.org
>> Subject: Re: [cryptome] Cryptome has been leaking its user logs for
>>         over a year
>> Message-ID: <561862BF.8020408 at riseup.net>
>> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8
>>
>> On 10/09/2015 03:52 AM, rysiek wrote:
>>> Dnia czwartek, 8 października 2015 20:45:50 Mirimir pisze:
>>>> On 10/08/2015 07:42 PM, coderman wrote:
>>>>> On 10/7/15, Michael Best <themikebest at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>> Let me begin by saying that Cryptome initially denied the leak, then
>> that
>>>>>> the data was stolen, then that the whole thing was a fake "a lie by
>> [a]
>>>>>> spy-newbie."
>>>>>
>>>>> the lie is assuming these requests over plain-text were ever private :P
>>>>
>>>> That is the key point!
>>>>
>>>> And anyway, all traffic to all websites is public.
>>>
>>> Oh for fucks' sake. There are fuckers who do listen in and surveil, etc,
>> but
>>> it is *not* okay to make their work easier. And it is *not* okay to make
>> one's
>>> server logs broadly available in such a context.
>>
>> Look, Cryptome did fuck up. First, by keeping logs for more than a day
>> or so, whatever necessary for debugging and responding to attacks.
>> Second, by sending them to a third party. And third, by being so obtuse
>> with that third party that he felt compelled to publish them.
>>
>>> Why the fuck are people on this list slamming Snowden and freedom.press
>> for
>>> using Cloudflare, and at the same time defending JYA for sending out
>> server
>>> logs with dates and IP addresses?
>>
>> You'll never catch me slamming Snowden or defending JYA ;) And I gotta
>> say, Cloudflare starts looking good when your site is getting DOSed.
>>
>>> The hell is this bullshit?
>>
>> Bullshit, mostly ;)
>>
>>
>>
>> ------------------------------
>>
>> Message: 5
>> Date: Fri, 9 Oct 2015 19:10:34 -0600
>> From: Mirimir <mirimir at riseup.net>
>> To: cypherpunks at cpunks.org
>> Subject: Re: [cryptome] Re: [cryptome]
>> Message-ID: <5618658A.3070206 at riseup.net>
>> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252
>>
>> On 10/09/2015 06:22 PM, Shelley wrote:
>>> On October 9, 2015 4:51:44 PM Jeremy Compton <j.compton at outlook.com>
>> wrote:
>>>
>>>> I am not surprised that GCHQ does what you claim it does.
>>>>
>>>
>>> Have you read about this from the beginning?  If so, you'd know that
>>> Mike Best is not the one claiming that the GCHQ slide is real.  He is
>>> trying to establish whether nearly anyone could have made the slide with
>>> the logs Cryptome leaked/distributed/whatever, unwittingly or
>>> otherwise.  That's all, and I don't know how a researcher trying to
>>> verify data has become a giant shitstorm.
>>
>> Maybe because Mike _published_ the fucking logs, just because JYA was
>> doing the mirror shades thing about whether the archive was or was not
>> genuine? I mean, JYA can be a very funny man. For sure. But does that
>> justify publishing Cryptome access logs?
>>
>>> -S
>>>
>>>> Date: Fri, 9 Oct 2015 19:11:50 -0400
>>>> Subject: [cryptome]
>>>> From: themikebest at gmail.com
>>>> To: cryptome at freelists.org
>>>>
>>>> To the original point, the GCHQ Snowden slide. Cryptome accusing me of
>>>> faking the data was a diversion. Only had to verify it because of the
>>>> GCHQ slide.
>>>> From: Jeremy Compton <j.compton at xxxxxxxxxxx>To:
>>>> "cryptome at xxxxxxxxxxxxx" <cryptome at xxxxxxxxxxxxx>Date: Sat, 10 Oct
>>>> 2015 12:00:48 +1300So, now you have named and shamed Cryptome for this
>>>> grievance you have, whereto
>>>> know?
>>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>
>>
>> ------------------------------
>>
>> Message: 6
>> Date: Fri, 9 Oct 2015 21:19:39 -0400
>> From: Michael Best <themikebest at gmail.com>
>> To: cypherpunks at cpunks.org, mirimir at riseup.net
>> Subject: [cryptome] Re: [cryptome]
>> Message-ID:
>>         <
>> CANFTA0-qPf1VhateDGgbWRuxTrua4H7fqVXJVGsg+Upx-WwfGw at mail.gmail.com>
>> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"
>>
>>>
>>> Maybe because Mike _published_ the fucking logs, just because JYA was
>>> doing the mirror shades thing about whether the archive was or was not
>>> genuine? I mean, JYA can be a very funny man. For sure. But does that
>>> justify publishing Cryptome access logs?
>>
>>
>> I published them to verify the data, *AFTER JYA publicly accused me of
>> FAKING it.* I only raised the point of the logs because of the GCHQ slide.
>> *If
>> *John had verified it a week earlier, or not accused me of faking data
>> (with ZERO evidence, and the data turns out to be legit) *they never
>> would've been published. *
>> -------------- next part --------------
>> An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
>> URL: <
>> http://cpunks.org/pipermail/cypherpunks/attachments/20151009/3541f896/attachment-0001.html
>>>
>>
>> ------------------------------
>>
>> Message: 7
>> Date: Fri, 09 Oct 2015 18:21:55 -0700
>> From: Shelley <shelley at misanthropia.org>
>> To: Mirimir <mirimir at riseup.net>, <cypherpunks at cpunks.org>
>> Subject: Re: [cryptome] Re: [cryptome]
>> Message-ID: <20151010012138.EFC3BC00013 at frontend1.nyi.internal>
>> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed
>>
>> On October 9, 2015 6:16:10 PM Mirimir <mirimir at riseup.net> wrote:
>>
>>  > Maybe because Mike _published_ the fucking logs, just because JYA was
>>> doing the mirror shades thing about whether the archive was or was not
>>> genuine? I mean, JYA can be a very funny man. For sure. But does that
>>> justify publishing Cryptome access logs?
>>>
>>
>> When the logs have been distributed by Cryptome via USB and torrents as
>> part of the archive for over a year?  Yeah, it's fair game.
>>
>> Note that he removed those files once JY finally gave an explanation.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> ------------------------------
>>
>> Message: 8
>> Date: Fri, 9 Oct 2015 20:15:01 -0600
>> From: Mirimir <mirimir at riseup.net>
>> To: Michael Best <themikebest at gmail.com>, cypherpunks at cpunks.org
>> Subject: Re: [cryptome] Re: [cryptome]
>> Message-ID: <561874A5.3060704 at riseup.net>
>> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8
>>
>> On 10/09/2015 07:19 PM, Michael Best wrote:
>>>>
>>>> Maybe because Mike _published_ the fucking logs, just because JYA was
>>>> doing the mirror shades thing about whether the archive was or was not
>>>> genuine? I mean, JYA can be a very funny man. For sure. But does that
>>>> justify publishing Cryptome access logs?
>>>
>>>
>>> I published them to verify the data, *AFTER JYA publicly accused me of
>>> FAKING it.* I only raised the point of the logs because of the GCHQ
>> slide. *If
>>> *John had verified it a week earlier, or not accused me of faking data
>>> (with ZERO evidence, and the data turns out to be legit) *they never
>>> would've been published. *
>>
>> Publishing them was still unwarranted. You could have published a
>> redacted version. You could have polled this list, and verified selected
>> lines. Whatever. Yes, JYA was being a jerk. But still ...
>>
>>
>>
>> ------------------------------
>>
>> Message: 9
>> Date: Fri, 9 Oct 2015 22:21:11 -0400
>> From: Michael Best <themikebest at gmail.com>
>> To: cypherpunks at cpunks.org
>> Subject: Re: [cryptome] Re: [cryptome]
>> Message-ID:
>>         <
>> CANFTA09zAMgyY2jv0LbR+auR+LaPGo764R1LX9Xxh2Fm8-_N7g at mail.gmail.com>
>> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"
>>
>>>
>>> Publishing them was still unwarranted. You could have published a
>>> redacted version. You could have polled this list, and verified selected
>>> lines. Whatever. Yes, JYA was being a jerk. But still ...
>>
>> *Umm, I *did* post a redacted version first.* JYA said it was faked
>> and refused to verify it until days after it had been published in its
>> entirety. I even told him before hand that if he didn't verify it, I'd
>> have to post it. He still called it disinfo and fake until well after
>> it'd been released and confirmed as the files being un multiple
>> releases, including an old torrent.
>>
>>
>> On Fri, Oct 9, 2015 at 10:15 PM, Mirimir <mirimir at riseup.net> wrote:
>>
>>> On 10/09/2015 07:19 PM, Michael Best wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>> Maybe because Mike _published_ the fucking logs, just because JYA was
>>>>> doing the mirror shades thing about whether the archive was or was not
>>>>> genuine? I mean, JYA can be a very funny man. For sure. But does that
>>>>> justify publishing Cryptome access logs?
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> I published them to verify the data, *AFTER JYA publicly accused me of
>>>> FAKING it.* I only raised the point of the logs because of the GCHQ
>>> slide. *If
>>>> *John had verified it a week earlier, or not accused me of faking data
>>>> (with ZERO evidence, and the data turns out to be legit) *they never
>>>> would've been published. *
>>>
>>> Publishing them was still unwarranted. You could have published a
>>> redacted version. You could have polled this list, and verified selected
>>> lines. Whatever. Yes, JYA was being a jerk. But still ...
>>>
>>>
>> -------------- next part --------------
>> An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
>> URL: <
>> http://cpunks.org/pipermail/cypherpunks/attachments/20151009/ff3fbdcf/attachment-0001.html
>>>
>>
>> ------------------------------
>>
>> Message: 10
>> Date: Fri, 9 Oct 2015 20:24:59 -0600
>> From: Mirimir <mirimir at riseup.net>
>> To: cypherpunks at cpunks.org
>> Subject: Re: [cryptome] Re: [cryptome]
>> Message-ID: <561876FB.7080302 at riseup.net>
>> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252
>>
>> On 10/09/2015 07:21 PM, Shelley wrote:
>>> On October 9, 2015 6:16:10 PM Mirimir <mirimir at riseup.net> wrote:
>>>
>>>> Maybe because Mike _published_ the fucking logs, just because JYA was
>>>> doing the mirror shades thing about whether the archive was or was not
>>>> genuine? I mean, JYA can be a very funny man. For sure. But does that
>>>> justify publishing Cryptome access logs?
>>>>
>>>
>>> When the logs have been distributed by Cryptome via USB and torrents as
>>> part of the archive for over a year?  Yeah, it's fair game.
>>
>> If that's true, JYA was being either unimaginably stupid, or
>> unimaginably weird. Still, there was no need to publish the logs just to
>> make a point. Redacted excerpts and hashes of the files would have been
>> enough, no?
>>
>>> Note that he removed those files once JY finally gave an explanation.
>>
>> True. But publishing them was still unwarranted.
>>
>>
>> ------------------------------
>>
>> Subject: Digest Footer
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> cypherpunks mailing list
>> cypherpunks at cpunks.org
>> https://cpunks.org/mailman/listinfo/cypherpunks
>>
>>
>> ------------------------------
>>
>> End of cypherpunks Digest, Vol 28, Issue 32
>> *******************************************
>>
> 




From coderman at gmail.com  Fri Oct  9 20:58:15 2015
From: coderman at gmail.com (coderman)
Date: Fri, 9 Oct 2015 20:58:15 -0700
Subject: [cryptome] Re: [cryptome]
In-Reply-To: <5618658A.3070206@riseup.net>
References: <CANFTA08gfB-EM8yNwPbF2dv-Kv8EyygQqDdK9MUfDNYg=G8Emg@mail.gmail.com>
 <BLU179-W65FA140E1BFC280A1D3C99FC340@phx.gbl>
 <20151010002205.4B848C00026@frontend1.nyi.internal>
 <5618658A.3070206@riseup.net>
Message-ID: <CAJVRA1RZtyS4iKHJZkjJYtYG8ERVtQyKNW+YMLLKe9RkkULadg@mail.gmail.com>

On 10/9/15, Mirimir <mirimir at riseup.net> wrote:
> ...
> Maybe because Mike _published_ the fucking logs, just because JYA was
> doing the mirror shades thing about whether the archive was or was not
> genuine?

JYA's mirror shades are motivating, for sure :P



> I mean, JYA can be a very funny man. For sure. But does that
> justify publishing Cryptome access logs?

access logs existing is reason enough to publish them.
 i enjoyed publishing them in the summer 2013; fine vintage.
  also publishing them in 2014 bigsun corpus, still aged nicely.

that said, i too would publish for more JYA funny!


best regards,




From coderman at gmail.com  Fri Oct  9 21:01:09 2015
From: coderman at gmail.com (coderman)
Date: Fri, 9 Oct 2015 21:01:09 -0700
Subject: [cryptome] Re: [cryptome]
In-Reply-To: <CANFTA0-qPf1VhateDGgbWRuxTrua4H7fqVXJVGsg+Upx-WwfGw@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CANFTA0-qPf1VhateDGgbWRuxTrua4H7fqVXJVGsg+Upx-WwfGw@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAJVRA1Tujm68F6cg_o_JjjHtSC9Wxd86iEGSSeCxYW2=8xkyBQ@mail.gmail.com>

On 10/9/15, Michael Best <themikebest at gmail.com> wrote:
> ... *they never would've been published. *

i find it useful to think of voice. published yes, with little voice.

now it's most certainly a loud something!
  the published always was, however...




From coderman at gmail.com  Fri Oct  9 21:05:45 2015
From: coderman at gmail.com (coderman)
Date: Fri, 9 Oct 2015 21:05:45 -0700
Subject: [cryptome] Re: [cryptome]
In-Reply-To: <561876FB.7080302@riseup.net>
References: <CANFTA08gfB-EM8yNwPbF2dv-Kv8EyygQqDdK9MUfDNYg=G8Emg@mail.gmail.com>
 <BLU179-W65FA140E1BFC280A1D3C99FC340@phx.gbl>
 <20151010002205.4B848C00026@frontend1.nyi.internal>
 <5618658A.3070206@riseup.net>
 <20151010012138.EFC3BC00013@frontend1.nyi.internal>
 <561876FB.7080302@riseup.net>
Message-ID: <CAJVRA1RBJ4U0bgh3HLtDj0=5c0_bft4VvSSP_7_U=5fCCd=TEQ@mail.gmail.com>

On 10/9/15, Mirimir <mirimir at riseup.net> wrote:
> ... hashes of the files would have been enough, no?


to bring this full circle,  and almost on topic,

  "... as long as they're not SHA-1 hashes!!" [0]
  ♬ ♪♪ CYBER `DUBSTUB` MUSIC PLAYS ♪♪ ♬♬♬
(•_•)
( •_•)>⌐■-■
(⌐■_■)



0. "The SHAppening: freestart collisions for SHA-1"
 - https://sites.google.com/site/itstheshappening/




From coderman at gmail.com  Fri Oct  9 21:13:15 2015
From: coderman at gmail.com (coderman)
Date: Fri, 9 Oct 2015 21:13:15 -0700
Subject: FOIPA adventures
In-Reply-To: <CAJVRA1TOMYnBh0-B=uh6n2HsOsFdY+SKVG-=XqKi6WPNro++PA@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAJVRA1SaJpNaPQx=s_7VVM==ony2sH0aUG3w11cjNX6escSm8w@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAJVRA1TUfu40206TOzK2kBsgCvbgBYYXmyKZ3E5n4KQuoEtZyg@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAJVRA1QtgMky_hsDLsmFwiXcxE528bZaDOQsjTqqj4tR-dbGBQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAJVRA1RwoyoRs-REWnhGd8cHZM6EJvcziTUDXbU5A6TMigOT6A@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAJVRA1Rwaq1fvE8p-s1JwOANvMc7X2E75bx5eNd4KGJapt6Nuw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAJVRA1TU5Frg3WOJk+3ZFEH0QAFya5xZnwzCfCUE+hL1NhKUFg@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAJVRA1Q0SDo9Fj3KAU9vA3cxR2=7pwcdpO3Ex=yi6g2WtRAg6A@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAJVRA1Srrb08Z9XvG+rYq30p2E_MnhJA6ynOLpdT--6gCvwiyQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAJVRA1RXD2dr16TJZK-MPcJm7nR0Ov=Dp9i5Anf5hKNFs2hq7w@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAJVRA1S97DSPk0NBjgon1LS4HHuGtq_03dqFppUnWq+t61a41A@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAJVRA1SyW_wOUcFUo6STbiePO8HmLV9LgF-PCgugvuPRD_tKWA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAJVRA1QaYYF=hoSQiSd4SHNUj-W6hjEJDhy1KxR9CfFKDgNkew@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAJVRA1TvZxj_qz6_xK8h13LOD-5mE6iNvT9dnThf4ue0_=kY3Q@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAJVRA1RbeuzfiVAOqaZ15p8kr67jxcBoNMOrJkt3K86_=FuVXw@mail.gmail.com>
 <000701d0bcb7$94118e80$bc34ab80$@co.uk>
 <CAJVRA1SE1O-PqmkV8vX=q5j_xs-YFOpH=OLxSvwaT8BBvadQmA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAJVRA1TwM3Re8Tz6NPxp_CeY5C4K3QN+Ceo5VbW3JKMbBABv9g@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAJVRA1SbqTrEbUJ84rLFWdu6+psY5uUzu-ZsVfyUwoSaMRcGdQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAJVRA1RDN6HsLCbF_wsK+zARO9PaEn80R9FSGnWgGVF4XkbbpQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAJVRA1Rt2gKvgnM0MCiqf2Q4vJ8wWxm=KabcQXeBYSqn4zRvKg@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAJVRA1Q95CKTVahkfQeH_pwaGDcgJ-4OL2=9o5ckQrZLG8HeUA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAJVRA1SyX65OE9-7DQ1hP1fGWHxY8rvCqFXhKPu4Oy4o6wt0gg@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAJVRA1SgoLtLFS9AFf_d043AGDVbKp4djDtijDR+zfCRJ8twTA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAJVRA1SvN5ML7TQnOUqz78PhYv8aefz=k8-4fPOwv2uHUVF3_w@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAJVRA1Ry2EV7qaFHmZJ9cjm8-waCNBCzenO9BpqW+YKChEHX7w@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAJVRA1S5juVmB6Ouy0JWbdeJdj9yz0W6tKQDY2q_zi+AC461EA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAJVRA1SYO0ia4VGLwFwZFowkD75YR61MC1TNc1wzHbZtmhy1_w@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAJVRA1SqWMVy6m6KuiJWQQG_6XPWoB+86-p45PWKvfn8wg_jeA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAJVRA1RWaiCZtig6+Seyk-UN9M3h9+2iZ0Otnqb6n=AFcRAeRw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAJVRA1QzHeh=rs0hRf0sugLZdbXvAhK+2Yte5Tbt_Tnv5Tf8mg@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAJVRA1SdAW+36Z8yYTdSFTtz8S8U5aiELv5NiuXg5Rg-vaFYew@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAJVRA1Svk488ax6sd4oy52rfM_u_E1EuzhUAQt6cQ2Jy5yRx5g@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAJVRA1S4=X5P6hKnZu224GjseL5ws1vRm6Gk4gJ+DG06oLjaDA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAJVRA1RsgoKvADCcRz76vj1xjT+EQDB96tw7-sgg_pf+BGzA=A@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAJVRA1TOMYnBh0-B=uh6n2HsOsFdY+SKVG-=XqKi6WPNro++PA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAJVRA1Qao1qE2kBSbb_V5NPQ7PF--VFnYQpc=08wY2_ZURz4hg@mail.gmail.com>

$115 for responsive docs from FBI regarding FLIR equipment:
  https://www.muckrock.com/foi/united-states-of-america-10/flirwhere-18875/

"Any and all SKUs, Contracts, Invoices, Receipts, Billing Numbers,
Agreements, PO Numbers, Billable Hours, Consulting Relationships, for
any services or goods associated with FLIR Corporation (on web as
flir.com), to include technologies such as "Thermal Security Cameras",
"Visible-Light CCTV Cameras", "Lorex", "Airborne Systems", "Maritime
Systems", "Land Systems", "Tactical Vision", and "Unmanned Systems".
Please include processing notes in response to this request, even if
denied in part; thank you!"

might this be the first request with fees required? stay tuned for:
Thread Next >>




From themikebest at gmail.com  Fri Oct  9 18:19:39 2015
From: themikebest at gmail.com (Michael Best)
Date: Fri, 9 Oct 2015 21:19:39 -0400
Subject: [cryptome] Re: [cryptome]
Message-ID: <CANFTA0-qPf1VhateDGgbWRuxTrua4H7fqVXJVGsg+Upx-WwfGw@mail.gmail.com>

>
> Maybe because Mike _published_ the fucking logs, just because JYA was
> doing the mirror shades thing about whether the archive was or was not
> genuine? I mean, JYA can be a very funny man. For sure. But does that
> justify publishing Cryptome access logs?


I published them to verify the data, *AFTER JYA publicly accused me of
FAKING it.* I only raised the point of the logs because of the GCHQ slide. *If
*John had verified it a week earlier, or not accused me of faking data
(with ZERO evidence, and the data turns out to be legit) *they never
would've been published. *
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From themikebest at gmail.com  Fri Oct  9 19:21:11 2015
From: themikebest at gmail.com (Michael Best)
Date: Fri, 9 Oct 2015 22:21:11 -0400
Subject: [cryptome] Re: [cryptome]
In-Reply-To: <561874A5.3060704@riseup.net>
References: <CANFTA0-qPf1VhateDGgbWRuxTrua4H7fqVXJVGsg+Upx-WwfGw@mail.gmail.com>
 <561874A5.3060704@riseup.net>
Message-ID: <CANFTA09zAMgyY2jv0LbR+auR+LaPGo764R1LX9Xxh2Fm8-_N7g@mail.gmail.com>

>
> Publishing them was still unwarranted. You could have published a
> redacted version. You could have polled this list, and verified selected
> lines. Whatever. Yes, JYA was being a jerk. But still ...

*Umm, I *did* post a redacted version first.* JYA said it was faked
and refused to verify it until days after it had been published in its
entirety. I even told him before hand that if he didn't verify it, I'd
have to post it. He still called it disinfo and fake until well after
it'd been released and confirmed as the files being un multiple
releases, including an old torrent.


On Fri, Oct 9, 2015 at 10:15 PM, Mirimir <mirimir at riseup.net> wrote:

> On 10/09/2015 07:19 PM, Michael Best wrote:
> >>
> >> Maybe because Mike _published_ the fucking logs, just because JYA was
> >> doing the mirror shades thing about whether the archive was or was not
> >> genuine? I mean, JYA can be a very funny man. For sure. But does that
> >> justify publishing Cryptome access logs?
> >
> >
> > I published them to verify the data, *AFTER JYA publicly accused me of
> > FAKING it.* I only raised the point of the logs because of the GCHQ
> slide. *If
> > *John had verified it a week earlier, or not accused me of faking data
> > (with ZERO evidence, and the data turns out to be legit) *they never
> > would've been published. *
>
> Publishing them was still unwarranted. You could have published a
> redacted version. You could have polled this list, and verified selected
> lines. Whatever. Yes, JYA was being a jerk. But still ...
>
>
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From themikebest at gmail.com  Fri Oct  9 19:31:22 2015
From: themikebest at gmail.com (Michael Best)
Date: Fri, 9 Oct 2015 22:31:22 -0400
Subject: [cryptome] Re: [cryptome]
Message-ID: <CANFTA08aZwfZHF=wL8mV_8qhijK39RfALQ7HfoTOb+eVsHgYjQ@mail.gmail.com>

>
> If that's true, JYA was being either unimaginably stupid, or
> unimaginably weird. Still, there was no need to publish the logs just to
> make a point. Redacted excerpts and hashes of the files would have been
> enough, no?


True and documented, and as I said in my last email - I DID REDACT THEM.
John *still* denied they were real and accused me of faking them.

On Fri, Oct 9, 2015 at 10:25 PM, <cypherpunks-request at cpunks.org> wrote:

> Send cypherpunks mailing list submissions to
>         cypherpunks at cpunks.org
>
> To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit
>         https://cpunks.org/mailman/listinfo/cypherpunks
> or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to
>         cypherpunks-request at cpunks.org
>
> You can reach the person managing the list at
>         cypherpunks-owner at cpunks.org
>
> When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific
> than "Re: Contents of cypherpunks digest..."
>
>
> Today's Topics:
>
>    1. Re: [cryptome] Cryptome has been leaking its user logs for
>       over a year (coderman)
>    2. Re: [cryptome] Re: [cryptome] (Shelley)
>    3. Re: [cryptome] Re: [cryptome] Yay: [cryptome] (coderman)
>    4. Re: [cryptome] Cryptome has been leaking its user logs for
>       over a year (Mirimir)
>    5. Re: [cryptome] Re: [cryptome] (Mirimir)
>    6. [cryptome] Re: [cryptome] (Michael Best)
>    7. Re: [cryptome] Re: [cryptome] (Shelley)
>    8. Re: [cryptome] Re: [cryptome] (Mirimir)
>    9. Re: [cryptome] Re: [cryptome] (Michael Best)
>   10. Re: [cryptome] Re: [cryptome] (Mirimir)
>
>
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> Message: 1
> Date: Fri, 9 Oct 2015 16:28:42 -0700
> From: coderman <coderman at gmail.com>
> To: Michael Best <themikebest at gmail.com>
> Cc: cypherpunks at cpunks.org
> Subject: Re: [cryptome] Cryptome has been leaking its user logs for
>         over a year
> Message-ID:
>         <
> CAJVRA1RoJBTn4OaOXYKcHtyS7LwxGThpqMr5Tud4KwHUEPvFdw at mail.gmail.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"
>
> On 10/9/15, coderman <coderman at gmail.com> wrote:
> > ...
> > 0eb8551d977dde4f4193b3a16dedcd18f01e854e371e96623d33dd5b9519e413
> USB-1.rar
>
>
> see attached.  then xref with Tor exit db :P
>
>
> best regards,
> -------------- next part --------------
> # USB-1/Disk
> 2/07-Cryptome-org-13-0702-cartome-directory/07-Cryptome-org-13-0702-cartome-directory/07-Cryptome-org-13-0702-cartome-directory/awstats
> e013b32176f9ebfb6a235de6929a38cd3b1ba3fd9546fa633a4380519577da34
> ./.access.pwd
> b16367d1eb9ca9ace9d21f8b96d703d9e336037c41586f5d66ec9adc4e66b43c
> ./.htaccess
> 093154a05f46ed7de77882e6dd3fb90c9fee53deb3cf46cf3e13a4f23fcff6ed
> ./0911/awstats.1331504.0911.alldomains.html
> 0392478bb58c6e0e7c41064185bd485fd799b86ee0db03b0eeda08c6003f3c7a
> ./0911/awstats.1331504.0911.allhosts.html
> a5ffab80b59fe8d1ab17e115895d2da077b9f1cf96ed05b9f936e676f1933e0e
> ./0911/awstats.1331504.0911.allrobots.html
> afa0ab42cd92f5d1aec75b0051596488721349657865a8da63be3e6f54375c5e
> ./0911/awstats.1331504.0911.browserdetail.html
> 6c4ce20030bde571b90315874d416583dd38c0031c264a586e8bb1ca9b7c6ac5
> ./0911/awstats.1331504.0911.errors404.html
> 0da1dd9013f9ce75b202d3390246bdfe70aad28bcf09f9737aaa65f73925433d
> ./0911/awstats.1331504.0911.html
> d6d43d9bedb2c7ce6ec4d374c09aca4a26ffd57e027f197bb7d0bcf000b12ae4
> ./0911/awstats.1331504.0911.keyphrases.html
> 9cb4e5d1048950ac31df9e5a526282845e07f25a3ad9889fc0dcd1f1d57a242f
> ./0911/awstats.1331504.0911.keywords.html
> 767e9e5dd846c0164cda3063ce7e34ffd53459d1864516fe66614c954f4e8ea6
> ./0911/awstats.1331504.0911.lasthosts.html
> 812c69144792dbd8affb3d8b9df24ab1003bd6fe1423d3d775c04dc6ed7d9ce1
> ./0911/awstats.1331504.0911.lastrobots.html
> f1b46b8773c00e7e27f5fe1db205921354a4ffcc69c09fcf4c66f43300f49dd9
> ./0911/awstats.1331504.0911.osdetail.html
> 01a0f300f2a64ef28a7e390f573f9e6504ee2ee09b39788ac07fab8daaea7d04
> ./0911/awstats.1331504.0911.refererpages.html
> 9bba7b9051506cf92bf32695874eec135dbb1cef393bc226326eba7063e5ad9a
> ./0911/awstats.1331504.0911.refererse.html
> 5d8c3adb9ef936cc776bbd18e83ed10ac97262c3040405ada63c3908d65f6a45
> ./0911/awstats.1331504.0911.session.html
> 657bb65f55e400c9f72336b1e0720b3183bb1443dc234b8b76c56be59be30c2d
> ./0911/awstats.1331504.0911.unknownbrowser.html
> 57d92684a428c4404a8c682e37269b9c2b99b87910b10c97d504a4f2e7bc04bc
> ./0911/awstats.1331504.0911.unknownip.html
> 51e2187129764052a89238531bff22d392d1ca9699760810201c3b08dba56297
> ./0911/awstats.1331504.0911.unknownos.html
> c0b24345644ff1ceb098afc12aeea58168c82d67a9896997e038098f0f70e739
> ./0911/awstats.1331504.0911.urldetail.html
> 8f5b9e621b454998f6a9b6eb2e10f81870017768fa931f2ffb92ee4b0bbda955
> ./0911/awstats.1331504.0911.urlentry.html
> 4b8049714a8c624ad40cc939010b0d8120b7b80102dcf5519d9c6710a38f3846
> ./0911/awstats.1331504.0911.urlexit.html
> 90ff363dc17bdb7759d14e88d08253b99d5aa999adf31f91650de314e41e9966
> ./0912/awstats.1331504.0912.alldomains.html
> 3d2a6b84c3bf389a2f2bf934248a633a9759167b8109b4c55794c8130727516f
> ./0912/awstats.1331504.0912.allhosts.html
> c362b92e89a8ecc318eb9d1719c12c37ea0e5b237566909d456ad3e3109c64de
> ./0912/awstats.1331504.0912.allrobots.html
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>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 2
> Date: Fri, 09 Oct 2015 17:22:21 -0700
> From: Shelley <shelley at misanthropia.org>
> To: <cryptome at freelists.org>, cypherpunks <cypherpunks at cpunks.org>
> Subject: Re: [cryptome] Re: [cryptome]
> Message-ID: <20151010002205.4B848C00026 at frontend1.nyi.internal>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed
>
> On October 9, 2015 4:51:44 PM Jeremy Compton <j.compton at outlook.com>
> wrote:
>
> > I am not surprised that GCHQ does what you claim it does.
> >
>
> Have you read about this from the beginning?  If so, you'd know that Mike
> Best is not the one claiming that the GCHQ slide is real.  He is trying to
> establish whether nearly anyone could have made the slide with the logs
> Cryptome leaked/distributed/whatever, unwittingly or otherwise.  That's
> all, and I don't know how a researcher trying to verify data has become a
> giant shitstorm.
>
> -S
>
> > Date: Fri, 9 Oct 2015 19:11:50 -0400
> > Subject: [cryptome]
> > From: themikebest at gmail.com
> > To: cryptome at freelists.org
> >
> > To the original point, the GCHQ Snowden slide. Cryptome accusing me of
> > faking the data was a diversion. Only had to verify it because of the
> GCHQ
> > slide.
> > From: Jeremy Compton <j.compton at xxxxxxxxxxx>To: "cryptome at xxxxxxxxxxxxx"
> > <cryptome at xxxxxxxxxxxxx>Date: Sat, 10 Oct 2015 12:00:48 +1300So, now you
> > have named and shamed Cryptome for this grievance you have, whereto
> > know?
> >
>
>
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 3
> Date: Fri, 9 Oct 2015 17:30:21 -0700
> From: coderman <coderman at gmail.com>
> To: shelley at misanthropia.org
> Cc: cypherpunks <cypherpunks at cpunks.org>, cryptome at freelists.org
> Subject: Re: [cryptome] Re: [cryptome] Yay: [cryptome]
> Message-ID:
>         <
> CAJVRA1T16mGyUwYP7etk2+pYn_hsfr+iajmg4zidims-66Am+A at mail.gmail.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8
>
> On 10/9/15, Shelley <shelley at misanthropia.org> wrote:
> > ... I don't know how a researcher trying to verify data has become a
> > giant shitstorm.
>
> the precariousness of life is exactly why i savor such enjoyments,
>  such as this turd turbulence in the absurdist library...
>
> :P
>
>
> best regards,
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 4
> Date: Fri, 9 Oct 2015 18:58:39 -0600
> From: Mirimir <mirimir at riseup.net>
> To: cypherpunks at cpunks.org
> Subject: Re: [cryptome] Cryptome has been leaking its user logs for
>         over a year
> Message-ID: <561862BF.8020408 at riseup.net>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8
>
> On 10/09/2015 03:52 AM, rysiek wrote:
> > Dnia czwartek, 8 października 2015 20:45:50 Mirimir pisze:
> >> On 10/08/2015 07:42 PM, coderman wrote:
> >>> On 10/7/15, Michael Best <themikebest at gmail.com> wrote:
> >>>> Let me begin by saying that Cryptome initially denied the leak, then
> that
> >>>> the data was stolen, then that the whole thing was a fake "a lie by
> [a]
> >>>> spy-newbie."
> >>>
> >>> the lie is assuming these requests over plain-text were ever private :P
> >>
> >> That is the key point!
> >>
> >> And anyway, all traffic to all websites is public.
> >
> > Oh for fucks' sake. There are fuckers who do listen in and surveil, etc,
> but
> > it is *not* okay to make their work easier. And it is *not* okay to make
> one's
> > server logs broadly available in such a context.
>
> Look, Cryptome did fuck up. First, by keeping logs for more than a day
> or so, whatever necessary for debugging and responding to attacks.
> Second, by sending them to a third party. And third, by being so obtuse
> with that third party that he felt compelled to publish them.
>
> > Why the fuck are people on this list slamming Snowden and freedom.press
> for
> > using Cloudflare, and at the same time defending JYA for sending out
> server
> > logs with dates and IP addresses?
>
> You'll never catch me slamming Snowden or defending JYA ;) And I gotta
> say, Cloudflare starts looking good when your site is getting DOSed.
>
> > The hell is this bullshit?
>
> Bullshit, mostly ;)
>
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 5
> Date: Fri, 9 Oct 2015 19:10:34 -0600
> From: Mirimir <mirimir at riseup.net>
> To: cypherpunks at cpunks.org
> Subject: Re: [cryptome] Re: [cryptome]
> Message-ID: <5618658A.3070206 at riseup.net>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252
>
> On 10/09/2015 06:22 PM, Shelley wrote:
> > On October 9, 2015 4:51:44 PM Jeremy Compton <j.compton at outlook.com>
> wrote:
> >
> >> I am not surprised that GCHQ does what you claim it does.
> >>
> >
> > Have you read about this from the beginning?  If so, you'd know that
> > Mike Best is not the one claiming that the GCHQ slide is real.  He is
> > trying to establish whether nearly anyone could have made the slide with
> > the logs Cryptome leaked/distributed/whatever, unwittingly or
> > otherwise.  That's all, and I don't know how a researcher trying to
> > verify data has become a giant shitstorm.
>
> Maybe because Mike _published_ the fucking logs, just because JYA was
> doing the mirror shades thing about whether the archive was or was not
> genuine? I mean, JYA can be a very funny man. For sure. But does that
> justify publishing Cryptome access logs?
>
> > -S
> >
> >> Date: Fri, 9 Oct 2015 19:11:50 -0400
> >> Subject: [cryptome]
> >> From: themikebest at gmail.com
> >> To: cryptome at freelists.org
> >>
> >> To the original point, the GCHQ Snowden slide. Cryptome accusing me of
> >> faking the data was a diversion. Only had to verify it because of the
> >> GCHQ slide.
> >> From: Jeremy Compton <j.compton at xxxxxxxxxxx>To:
> >> "cryptome at xxxxxxxxxxxxx" <cryptome at xxxxxxxxxxxxx>Date: Sat, 10 Oct
> >> 2015 12:00:48 +1300So, now you have named and shamed Cryptome for this
> >> grievance you have, whereto
> >> know?
> >>
> >
> >
> >
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 6
> Date: Fri, 9 Oct 2015 21:19:39 -0400
> From: Michael Best <themikebest at gmail.com>
> To: cypherpunks at cpunks.org, mirimir at riseup.net
> Subject: [cryptome] Re: [cryptome]
> Message-ID:
>         <
> CANFTA0-qPf1VhateDGgbWRuxTrua4H7fqVXJVGsg+Upx-WwfGw at mail.gmail.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"
>
> >
> > Maybe because Mike _published_ the fucking logs, just because JYA was
> > doing the mirror shades thing about whether the archive was or was not
> > genuine? I mean, JYA can be a very funny man. For sure. But does that
> > justify publishing Cryptome access logs?
>
>
> I published them to verify the data, *AFTER JYA publicly accused me of
> FAKING it.* I only raised the point of the logs because of the GCHQ slide.
> *If
> *John had verified it a week earlier, or not accused me of faking data
> (with ZERO evidence, and the data turns out to be legit) *they never
> would've been published. *
> -------------- next part --------------
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>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 7
> Date: Fri, 09 Oct 2015 18:21:55 -0700
> From: Shelley <shelley at misanthropia.org>
> To: Mirimir <mirimir at riseup.net>, <cypherpunks at cpunks.org>
> Subject: Re: [cryptome] Re: [cryptome]
> Message-ID: <20151010012138.EFC3BC00013 at frontend1.nyi.internal>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed
>
> On October 9, 2015 6:16:10 PM Mirimir <mirimir at riseup.net> wrote:
>
>  > Maybe because Mike _published_ the fucking logs, just because JYA was
> > doing the mirror shades thing about whether the archive was or was not
> > genuine? I mean, JYA can be a very funny man. For sure. But does that
> > justify publishing Cryptome access logs?
> >
>
> When the logs have been distributed by Cryptome via USB and torrents as
> part of the archive for over a year?  Yeah, it's fair game.
>
> Note that he removed those files once JY finally gave an explanation.
>
>
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 8
> Date: Fri, 9 Oct 2015 20:15:01 -0600
> From: Mirimir <mirimir at riseup.net>
> To: Michael Best <themikebest at gmail.com>, cypherpunks at cpunks.org
> Subject: Re: [cryptome] Re: [cryptome]
> Message-ID: <561874A5.3060704 at riseup.net>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8
>
> On 10/09/2015 07:19 PM, Michael Best wrote:
> >>
> >> Maybe because Mike _published_ the fucking logs, just because JYA was
> >> doing the mirror shades thing about whether the archive was or was not
> >> genuine? I mean, JYA can be a very funny man. For sure. But does that
> >> justify publishing Cryptome access logs?
> >
> >
> > I published them to verify the data, *AFTER JYA publicly accused me of
> > FAKING it.* I only raised the point of the logs because of the GCHQ
> slide. *If
> > *John had verified it a week earlier, or not accused me of faking data
> > (with ZERO evidence, and the data turns out to be legit) *they never
> > would've been published. *
>
> Publishing them was still unwarranted. You could have published a
> redacted version. You could have polled this list, and verified selected
> lines. Whatever. Yes, JYA was being a jerk. But still ...
>
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 9
> Date: Fri, 9 Oct 2015 22:21:11 -0400
> From: Michael Best <themikebest at gmail.com>
> To: cypherpunks at cpunks.org
> Subject: Re: [cryptome] Re: [cryptome]
> Message-ID:
>         <
> CANFTA09zAMgyY2jv0LbR+auR+LaPGo764R1LX9Xxh2Fm8-_N7g at mail.gmail.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"
>
> >
> > Publishing them was still unwarranted. You could have published a
> > redacted version. You could have polled this list, and verified selected
> > lines. Whatever. Yes, JYA was being a jerk. But still ...
>
> *Umm, I *did* post a redacted version first.* JYA said it was faked
> and refused to verify it until days after it had been published in its
> entirety. I even told him before hand that if he didn't verify it, I'd
> have to post it. He still called it disinfo and fake until well after
> it'd been released and confirmed as the files being un multiple
> releases, including an old torrent.
>
>
> On Fri, Oct 9, 2015 at 10:15 PM, Mirimir <mirimir at riseup.net> wrote:
>
> > On 10/09/2015 07:19 PM, Michael Best wrote:
> > >>
> > >> Maybe because Mike _published_ the fucking logs, just because JYA was
> > >> doing the mirror shades thing about whether the archive was or was not
> > >> genuine? I mean, JYA can be a very funny man. For sure. But does that
> > >> justify publishing Cryptome access logs?
> > >
> > >
> > > I published them to verify the data, *AFTER JYA publicly accused me of
> > > FAKING it.* I only raised the point of the logs because of the GCHQ
> > slide. *If
> > > *John had verified it a week earlier, or not accused me of faking data
> > > (with ZERO evidence, and the data turns out to be legit) *they never
> > > would've been published. *
> >
> > Publishing them was still unwarranted. You could have published a
> > redacted version. You could have polled this list, and verified selected
> > lines. Whatever. Yes, JYA was being a jerk. But still ...
> >
> >
> -------------- next part --------------
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>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 10
> Date: Fri, 9 Oct 2015 20:24:59 -0600
> From: Mirimir <mirimir at riseup.net>
> To: cypherpunks at cpunks.org
> Subject: Re: [cryptome] Re: [cryptome]
> Message-ID: <561876FB.7080302 at riseup.net>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252
>
> On 10/09/2015 07:21 PM, Shelley wrote:
> > On October 9, 2015 6:16:10 PM Mirimir <mirimir at riseup.net> wrote:
> >
> >> Maybe because Mike _published_ the fucking logs, just because JYA was
> >> doing the mirror shades thing about whether the archive was or was not
> >> genuine? I mean, JYA can be a very funny man. For sure. But does that
> >> justify publishing Cryptome access logs?
> >>
> >
> > When the logs have been distributed by Cryptome via USB and torrents as
> > part of the archive for over a year?  Yeah, it's fair game.
>
> If that's true, JYA was being either unimaginably stupid, or
> unimaginably weird. Still, there was no need to publish the logs just to
> make a point. Redacted excerpts and hashes of the files would have been
> enough, no?
>
> > Note that he removed those files once JY finally gave an explanation.
>
> True. But publishing them was still unwarranted.
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Subject: Digest Footer
>
> _______________________________________________
> cypherpunks mailing list
> cypherpunks at cpunks.org
> https://cpunks.org/mailman/listinfo/cypherpunks
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> End of cypherpunks Digest, Vol 28, Issue 32
> *******************************************
>
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From themikebest at gmail.com  Fri Oct  9 19:33:25 2015
From: themikebest at gmail.com (Michael Best)
Date: Fri, 9 Oct 2015 22:33:25 -0400
Subject: [cryptome] Re: [cryptome]
In-Reply-To: <5618784D.30805@riseup.net>
References: <CANFTA0-qPf1VhateDGgbWRuxTrua4H7fqVXJVGsg+Upx-WwfGw@mail.gmail.com>
 <561874A5.3060704@riseup.net>
 <CANFTA0_2M_vEOTOyxpGgx4NPfppWNe1KcLP6m1VpyX0HFCJrBg@mail.gmail.com>
 <5618784D.30805@riseup.net>
Message-ID: <CANFTA08Y3qz9db5jU84u_tVMqW6zpboQBJVbfUQGF-w+QFjfHg@mail.gmail.com>

And so how should I have proved they were real, since John called it fake
(either a lie of omission by refusing to check or a deliberate lie to
conceal)??

On Fri, Oct 9, 2015 at 10:30 PM, Mirimir <mirimir at riseup.net> wrote:

> On 10/09/2015 08:20 PM, Michael Best wrote:
> >>
> >> Publishing them was still unwarranted. You could have published a
> >> redacted version. You could have polled this list, and verified selected
> >> lines. Whatever. Yes, JYA was being a jerk. But still ...
> >
> > *Umm, I *did* post a redacted version first.* JYA said it was faked
> > and refused to verify it until days after it had been published in its
> > entirety. I even told him before hand that if he didn't verify it, I'd
> > have to post it. He still called it disinfo and fake until well after
> > it'd been released and confirmed as the files being un multiple
> > releases, including an old torrent.
>
> Sorry. I had forgotten that. But once it's clear that multiple copies
> are out there, I don't get the point of publishing your own copy. Maybe
> by then, it's a moot point. It was still a bad move, if only for you.
>
> > On Fri, Oct 9, 2015 at 10:15 PM, Mirimir <mirimir at riseup.net> wrote:
> >
> >> On 10/09/2015 07:19 PM, Michael Best wrote:
> >>>>
> >>>> Maybe because Mike _published_ the fucking logs, just because JYA was
> >>>> doing the mirror shades thing about whether the archive was or was not
> >>>> genuine? I mean, JYA can be a very funny man. For sure. But does that
> >>>> justify publishing Cryptome access logs?
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> I published them to verify the data, *AFTER JYA publicly accused me of
> >>> FAKING it.* I only raised the point of the logs because of the GCHQ
> >> slide. *If
> >>> *John had verified it a week earlier, or not accused me of faking data
> >>> (with ZERO evidence, and the data turns out to be legit) *they never
> >>> would've been published. *
> >>
> >> Publishing them was still unwarranted. You could have published a
> >> redacted version. You could have polled this list, and verified selected
> >> lines. Whatever. Yes, JYA was being a jerk. But still ...
> >>
> >>
> >
>
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From themikebest at gmail.com  Fri Oct  9 19:51:59 2015
From: themikebest at gmail.com (Michael Best)
Date: Fri, 9 Oct 2015 22:51:59 -0400
Subject: [cryptome] Re: [cryptome]
Message-ID: <CANFTA0_twp8EQNmExbZO8o02k6C7w4yHTjv07mDBq1ydqdsqiA@mail.gmail.com>

>
> Sorry. I had forgotten that. But once it was clear that multiple copies
> were out there, I don't get the point of publishing your own copy. Maybe
> by then, it was a moot point. And still, it was a bad move, if only for
> you, in that you come across as imprudent.


You realize John refused to acknowledge or fix the leak at that point, and
would have continued to mail them out - right? And at that point, it was
only clear to me since John denied it?  I'd say that stubbornness was far
more imprudent and damaging, and is the only thing that made posting the
list necessary. Especially once John started saying I was a liar and
accusing me of all sorts of things.
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From grarpamp at gmail.com  Fri Oct  9 20:04:22 2015
From: grarpamp at gmail.com (grarpamp)
Date: Fri, 9 Oct 2015 23:04:22 -0400
Subject: Cryptome has been leaking its user logs for over a year
In-Reply-To: <5616B202.3050403@riseup.net>
References: <CANFTA0-4ZDCq-QMAj=KeT7i00OUvBWCZ2VM32HHsnzMiUhkMeg@mail.gmail.com>
 <56165105.3010007@pilobilus.net> <5616B202.3050403@riseup.net>
Message-ID: <CAD2Ti28Q5XbeSPJXHybzfP=niWpEK+ZhzStmbvJ1c5BBhMWnhw@mail.gmail.com>

On Thu, Oct 8, 2015 at 2:12 PM, Razer <Rayzer at riseup.net> wrote:
>> "Revolutionaries are dead men on furlough."

Then shall we all be proud to be revolutionaries.




From grarpamp at gmail.com  Fri Oct  9 20:06:52 2015
From: grarpamp at gmail.com (grarpamp)
Date: Fri, 9 Oct 2015 23:06:52 -0400
Subject: Cryptome has been leaking its user logs for over a year
In-Reply-To: <5616B202.3050403@riseup.net>
References: <CANFTA0-4ZDCq-QMAj=KeT7i00OUvBWCZ2VM32HHsnzMiUhkMeg@mail.gmail.com>
 <56165105.3010007@pilobilus.net> <5616B202.3050403@riseup.net>
Message-ID: <CAD2Ti2_sghu35a9Ro+YVUx0YusAsujtG+xvGpXHLk2DNO1KkzA@mail.gmail.com>

On Thu, Oct 8, 2015 at 2:12 PM, Razer <Rayzer at riseup.net> wrote:
> They'll still get you if the want you bad enough.

If they get you, your game ain't good enough.
Fuck em... do and be better at the game.




From grarpamp at gmail.com  Fri Oct  9 21:14:15 2015
From: grarpamp at gmail.com (grarpamp)
Date: Sat, 10 Oct 2015 00:14:15 -0400
Subject: Why not P2P yet, Iceland, and "legal shit" [and: Cryptome's Diapers
 Leaking :-]
Message-ID: <CAD2Ti2_8B53M7YVnWsYxRC1KP3r++F8qBiVQBnDOvXcppuVOjw@mail.gmail.com>

On Fri, Oct 9, 2015 at 2:57 AM, Cari Machet <carimachet at gmail.com> wrote:
> Agreed but we do still have pirate bay

TPB is a long since sold and sold out third party joke of what it once was.
Moreover, Iceland, Sweden, whatever for TPB itself... it never protected
users, because torrenting protocol the clearnet cannot protect users.
For that, torrenters MUST rehome themselves exclusively to the darknets.
I2P and Phantom and even Tor and so forth would work reasonably well
for that against corporate MAFIAA attacks. But torrenters are stupid.
And it is the role of cpunks to provide designs for such capable darknets.

> and the drug pushing parasites

Yes, on I2P and Tor, lol. But note, save maybe openbazaar P2P alikes,
people are vain, so real P2P is not popular for them to do as it removes
their fame and control via their would be central sevices. This is why real
P2P hasn't taken off. Imagine a truly P2P Uber / Lyft... it doesn't exist
because everyone who thinks it up wants a cut, at which point they
are middlemen and not true [anon] P2P.

> Icelandic servers have a base of security because of the structure of law

Blah blah blah. How many and which treaties and partnerships, both front
and backdoor and silent, are Iceland's Government and country party to?
How strong is your adversary? Oh, now you have a problem once
you strip off the Iceland publicity bullshit. If Iceland were something
special you'd see them openly advertising forbidden hosting, not necessarily
for themselves, but for foreigners. And if it were a free country internally,
they'd advertise it for themselves. Silly laws, and mores. Ain't no bases
there.

> Legal shit has ramifications

Real independant legal shit is seriously fucking hard to achieve.

>> > > John's replies appear weird to me.
>> > i find that understanding of John's replies is best achieved through a
>> > structured series of mind altering substances ingested, inhaled, or

Cryptome is a unique character worthy of respect and dialogue
should you have the chance. An honor it would be in fact. While
the technicals of cryptome.org and its parentage could perhaps
make use of review. On the other hand, they are uniquely Cryptome.

>>         https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8r-e2NDSTuE

Lol.




From grarpamp at gmail.com  Fri Oct  9 21:34:23 2015
From: grarpamp at gmail.com (grarpamp)
Date: Sat, 10 Oct 2015 00:34:23 -0400
Subject: [cryptome] Cryptome has been leaking its user logs for over a year
In-Reply-To: <5617C842.1020205@openmailbox.org>
References: <CANFTA0-4ZDCq-QMAj=KeT7i00OUvBWCZ2VM32HHsnzMiUhkMeg@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAJVRA1TAeEfByH4n=OUyBVQZJT+gBK4yENjjtTBwmxGN_wbH4A@mail.gmail.com>
 <56172A5E.6060907@riseup.net> <5142947.VjethuF63H@lapuntu>
 <5617C842.1020205@openmailbox.org>
Message-ID: <CAD2Ti2-2RC9PC-_FcV_7a1vaEWpgU-n6nJfrW3PhNzgyzDRpoQ@mail.gmail.com>

On Fri, Oct 9, 2015 at 9:59 AM, oshwm <oshwm at openmailbox.org> wrote:
>> Oh for fucks' sake. There are fuckers who do listen in and surveil, etc, but
>> it is *not* okay to make their work easier. And it is *not* okay to make one's
>> server logs broadly available in such a context.

True. Ahem especially AT&T, etc.

>> Why the fuck are people on this list slamming Snowden and freedom.press for
>> using Cloudflare, and at the same time defending JYA for sending out server
>> logs with dates and IP addresses?

Probably because acting independantly is valued.
Using cloudflare is expressly not being independant...
it's mainstream and subject.

> Cloudflare's services in full knowledge that they MiTM and provide a
> irresistable data collection and collation point for the TLA's.

Some say CF or its employees have done work for the Govt
at some point in lifespan (sources needed).

> Snowden? He has his own agenda and is using the "leaks" (if they are

"Own agenda" sure, and historical leak partnerships are interesting
and evolving. However the Snowden era will likely be completely
known and over by the end of 2017 as to any US political game.

> as your OpSec should assume EVERYTHING is compromised right down to
> discrete component level (think you can't fit an IC into the casing of a
> resistor or diode?).

Said this all along, but no one is willing to do anything about it,
not even shave off a tenth or more of the risk via openfabs because
OMG cost. Shame, and on not seeing long term rewards of such
investment.




From grarpamp at gmail.com  Fri Oct  9 21:45:11 2015
From: grarpamp at gmail.com (grarpamp)
Date: Sat, 10 Oct 2015 00:45:11 -0400
Subject: Cryptome has been leaking its user logs for over a year
In-Reply-To: <56165105.3010007@pilobilus.net>
References: <CANFTA0-4ZDCq-QMAj=KeT7i00OUvBWCZ2VM32HHsnzMiUhkMeg@mail.gmail.com>
 <56165105.3010007@pilobilus.net>
Message-ID: <CAD2Ti2807hLjNPXQjjFZ3bOJrC+X8MMB43QFhT8qSOGE8Xu-3A@mail.gmail.com>

On Thu, Oct 8, 2015 at 7:18 AM, Steve Kinney <admin at pilobilus.net> wrote:
> The overall message I get from JYA's impressionistic essays on
> network security is that in his view there ain't no such animal.

True. Most people can be secure against their boyfriend, employer,
ISP, etc. But there's shit out there that most people haven't reckoned
with yet... some "seriously serious shit" (and you can quote that),
that is actually within the realm of possibility for the purveyors
of said shit to be interested in, at least on a mining level, if not
on a specifically "you" level.
That is the message of JYA and others.




From grarpamp at gmail.com  Fri Oct  9 22:25:44 2015
From: grarpamp at gmail.com (grarpamp)
Date: Sat, 10 Oct 2015 01:25:44 -0400
Subject: [cryptome] Re: [cryptome]
In-Reply-To: <56187E67.5090905@riseup.net>
References: <CANFTA08aZwfZHF=wL8mV_8qhijK39RfALQ7HfoTOb+eVsHgYjQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <56187E67.5090905@riseup.net>
Message-ID: <CAD2Ti2_SgjUTU9X8g7+v0suDjQ=JorM8qN9W_CxbJNENPhbFRQ@mail.gmail.com>

> refused to acknowledge or fix the leak at that point ... that stubbornness was far more imprudent and damaging

> In my world, people don't publish stuff that puts their [friends,
> allies, fellow travelers, etc] at risk. Even to make a point. Even if
> other assholes have already put that stuff out there.

... some important truths in the business.




From grarpamp at gmail.com  Fri Oct  9 22:37:12 2015
From: grarpamp at gmail.com (grarpamp)
Date: Sat, 10 Oct 2015 01:37:12 -0400
Subject: The GCHQ Cryptome slide could be a mockup/disinfo
In-Reply-To: <CAKtE3zeBzNRbzxyE-AiTVLZ18gxCrkg8iQv7wH8Cg=ipDdyaiw@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CANFTA0_rUNWVZ8jN=+=vPbQ2f+iTrRx6x1uZB+h61pKO56tXuw@mail.gmail.com>
 <20151008153729.GE2590@sivokote.iziade.m$>
 <20151008165339.CCFE9C0001A@frontend1.nyi.internal>
 <E1ZkExF-0004kD-V8@elasmtp-spurfowl.atl.sa.earthlink.net>
 <CAKtE3zeBzNRbzxyE-AiTVLZ18gxCrkg8iQv7wH8Cg=ipDdyaiw@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAD2Ti2_asEqCCiY+2xjPx+jayPVxO8=vFh7nf857gtrub-kQ4g@mail.gmail.com>

On Thu, Oct 8, 2015 at 1:37 PM, Travis Biehn <tbiehn at gmail.com> wrote:
>
> Who cares about cryptome keeping server logs? If you're worried about
> showing up in logs then you ought to be using TAILS. JYAs logs are just less
> accurate copies of what the TLAs, his hosting provider, their upstream
> peers, the guys on the lower floor at the PX & the memory scrapers implanted
> on his server already keep.

 +1 for truth. Beware hosters, ISP's, and cables.




From grarpamp at gmail.com  Fri Oct  9 22:47:54 2015
From: grarpamp at gmail.com (grarpamp)
Date: Sat, 10 Oct 2015 01:47:54 -0400
Subject: The GCHQ Cryptome slide could be a mockup/disinfo
In-Reply-To: <5617BA73.7050804@pilobilus.net>
References: <CANFTA0_rUNWVZ8jN=+=vPbQ2f+iTrRx6x1uZB+h61pKO56tXuw@mail.gmail.com>
 <20151008153729.GE2590@sivokote.iziade.m$>
 <20151008165339.CCFE9C0001A@frontend1.nyi.internal>
 <20151008105824.badf12c7552870001624480d@virtadpt.net>
 <5617BA73.7050804@pilobilus.net>
Message-ID: <CAD2Ti2-rLV5ugVse3ff-_0g+cvYrNZRSP1woxo7G26NrQTqorQ@mail.gmail.com>

On Fri, Oct 9, 2015 at 9:00 AM, Steve Kinney <admin at pilobilus.net> wrote:
>  That amounts to less than an ant fart in a tornado, in context?

I am having difficulty quantifying this ratio.
Can you supply some peer reviewed research data?
Preferably as compared to "needle in a haystack"
or "flatter than Kansas".




From themikebest at gmail.com  Sat Oct 10 02:03:13 2015
From: themikebest at gmail.com (Michael Best)
Date: Sat, 10 Oct 2015 05:03:13 -0400
Subject: [cryptome] Re: [cryptome]
In-Reply-To: <CAJVRA1Tujm68F6cg_o_JjjHtSC9Wxd86iEGSSeCxYW2=8xkyBQ@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CANFTA0-qPf1VhateDGgbWRuxTrua4H7fqVXJVGsg+Upx-WwfGw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAJVRA1Tujm68F6cg_o_JjjHtSC9Wxd86iEGSSeCxYW2=8xkyBQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CANFTA0-hj_v0ezi-1qvr8X3ELmCTpzyUyTnADe-2QKQO441vKA@mail.gmail.com>

The list had been involved since the first post about the GCHQ slide. The
list was no help at all.

Sorry you don't approve, Cari, but what's done is done. The list was
consulted and no help. John Young refused to acknowledge the problem - *or
fix it. *[sarcasm] But what's terribly wrong is that I reported it - *not* that
John leaked it or lied it about it when he kept denying it or anything
else. [/sarcasm]


> *Cari Machet* carimachet at gmail.com
>
> <carimachet%40gmail.com?Subject=Re%3A%20%5Bcryptome%5D%20Re%3A%20%5Bcryptome%5D&In-Reply-To=%3CCAGRDzQX8MeKa3DuwLaNpW-jfTneECwos-oXhSxo0iCb5V%2BGsHA%40mail.gmail.com%3E>
> *Sat Oct 10 04:51:59 EDT 2015*Still michael best you could have consulted
> the list here That someone calls you a liar therefor you act is an ego
> based mindset Answer why you decided to not consult this list that has
> profoundly smart
> beings on it You could have asked this list for help we are interested in
> helping with
> such matters i would say and you could have done so without revealing info
> ... did this never cross your mind ? If it never even crossed your mind to
> consult us i find there is something
> terribly wrong


On Sat, Oct 10, 2015 at 12:01 AM, coderman <coderman at gmail.com> wrote:

> On 10/9/15, Michael Best <themikebest at gmail.com> wrote:
> > ... *they never would've been published. *
>
> i find it useful to think of voice. published yes, with little voice.
>
> now it's most certainly a loud something!
>   the published always was, however...
>
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From themikebest at gmail.com  Sat Oct 10 06:09:55 2015
From: themikebest at gmail.com (Michael Best)
Date: Sat, 10 Oct 2015 09:09:55 -0400
Subject: [cryptome] Re: [cryptome]
In-Reply-To: <CAGRDzQV3ps1jFwA9H2ZDL4RnMeZR7cj44Fo+U34YESonVVs-xw@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CANFTA0-qPf1VhateDGgbWRuxTrua4H7fqVXJVGsg+Upx-WwfGw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAJVRA1Tujm68F6cg_o_JjjHtSC9Wxd86iEGSSeCxYW2=8xkyBQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <CANFTA0-hj_v0ezi-1qvr8X3ELmCTpzyUyTnADe-2QKQO441vKA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAGRDzQV3ps1jFwA9H2ZDL4RnMeZR7cj44Fo+U34YESonVVs-xw@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CANFTA09n99=-pqgt-VDf6V5BFOk7EWGdyktaiKvJpaC4JL98cw@mail.gmail.com>

You can read through the emails for yourself, no doubt. Start with the
original email about the GCHQ slide with redacted IPs, where I ask for
verification/validation.

On Sat, Oct 10, 2015 at 6:55 AM, Cari Machet <carimachet at gmail.com> wrote:

> Show me the email where you called for help ... i have been traveling
> heavy so missed it
>
> The type of work of forensics research is important and how ot is
> conducted is as well
>
> Its not about my personal stamp of approval it is about community and
> respecting of and embodiment of the community
>
> If anyone including john is being a fucker we need to account for that
> On Oct 10, 2015 12:04 PM, "Michael Best" <themikebest at gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> The list had been involved since the first post about the GCHQ slide. The
>> list was no help at all.
>>
>> Sorry you don't approve, Cari, but what's done is done. The list was
>> consulted and no help. John Young refused to acknowledge the problem - *or
>> fix it. *[sarcasm] But what's terribly wrong is that I reported it -
>> *not* that John leaked it or lied it about it when he kept denying it or
>> anything else. [/sarcasm]
>>
>>
>>> *Cari Machet* carimachet at gmail.com
>>>
>>> <carimachet%40gmail.com?Subject=Re%3A%20%5Bcryptome%5D%20Re%3A%20%5Bcryptome%5D&In-Reply-To=%3CCAGRDzQX8MeKa3DuwLaNpW-jfTneECwos-oXhSxo0iCb5V%2BGsHA%40mail.gmail.com%3E>
>>> *Sat Oct 10 04:51:59 EDT 2015*Still michael best you could have
>>> consulted the list here That someone calls you a liar therefor you act is
>>> an ego based mindset Answer why you decided to not consult this list that
>>> has profoundly smart
>>> beings on it You could have asked this list for help we are interested
>>> in helping with
>>> such matters i would say and you could have done so without revealing
>>> info
>>> ... did this never cross your mind ? If it never even crossed your mind
>>> to consult us i find there is something
>>> terribly wrong
>>
>>
>> On Sat, Oct 10, 2015 at 12:01 AM, coderman <coderman at gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>>> On 10/9/15, Michael Best <themikebest at gmail.com> wrote:
>>> > ... *they never would've been published. *
>>>
>>> i find it useful to think of voice. published yes, with little voice.
>>>
>>> now it's most certainly a loud something!
>>>   the published always was, however...
>>>
>>
>>
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From themikebest at gmail.com  Sat Oct 10 06:22:52 2015
From: themikebest at gmail.com (Michael Best)
Date: Sat, 10 Oct 2015 09:22:52 -0400
Subject: [cryptome] Re: [cryptome]
In-Reply-To: <CANFTA09n99=-pqgt-VDf6V5BFOk7EWGdyktaiKvJpaC4JL98cw@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CANFTA0-qPf1VhateDGgbWRuxTrua4H7fqVXJVGsg+Upx-WwfGw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAJVRA1Tujm68F6cg_o_JjjHtSC9Wxd86iEGSSeCxYW2=8xkyBQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <CANFTA0-hj_v0ezi-1qvr8X3ELmCTpzyUyTnADe-2QKQO441vKA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAGRDzQV3ps1jFwA9H2ZDL4RnMeZR7cj44Fo+U34YESonVVs-xw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CANFTA09n99=-pqgt-VDf6V5BFOk7EWGdyktaiKvJpaC4JL98cw@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CANFTA0-CHSXxMrpRznoXdg3xWwctL8z7vRehuJf4bAwgAW1Awg@mail.gmail.com>

John has yet to post a notice on his site alerting users to the log's
leaking and the possible compromise, but he has added a warning about a
"growing censor-tamper-implant-bowdlerize-redact-tag-track of archives,
torrents, drops, shares, wikis, disclosure sites." So that's something?


> Mirrors of the Cryptome Archive should be accessed with caution, none have
> been authenticated by Cryptome and sigs can be faked to hide tampering.
> There is growing censor-tamper-implant-bowdlerize-redact-tag-track of
> archives, torrents, drops, shares, wikis, disclosure sites.


I guess John was right before. "Compromise should be publicized but seldom
is: *hide, deny, ignore, delude*."

On Sat, Oct 10, 2015 at 9:09 AM, Michael Best <themikebest at gmail.com> wrote:

> You can read through the emails for yourself, no doubt. Start with the
> original email about the GCHQ slide with redacted IPs, where I ask for
> verification/validation.
>
> On Sat, Oct 10, 2015 at 6:55 AM, Cari Machet <carimachet at gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> Show me the email where you called for help ... i have been traveling
>> heavy so missed it
>>
>> The type of work of forensics research is important and how ot is
>> conducted is as well
>>
>> Its not about my personal stamp of approval it is about community and
>> respecting of and embodiment of the community
>>
>> If anyone including john is being a fucker we need to account for that
>> On Oct 10, 2015 12:04 PM, "Michael Best" <themikebest at gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>>> The list had been involved since the first post about the GCHQ slide.
>>> The list was no help at all.
>>>
>>> Sorry you don't approve, Cari, but what's done is done. The list was
>>> consulted and no help. John Young refused to acknowledge the problem - *or
>>> fix it. *[sarcasm] But what's terribly wrong is that I reported it -
>>> *not* that John leaked it or lied it about it when he kept denying it
>>> or anything else. [/sarcasm]
>>>
>>>
>>>> *Cari Machet* carimachet at gmail.com
>>>>
>>>> <carimachet%40gmail.com?Subject=Re%3A%20%5Bcryptome%5D%20Re%3A%20%5Bcryptome%5D&In-Reply-To=%3CCAGRDzQX8MeKa3DuwLaNpW-jfTneECwos-oXhSxo0iCb5V%2BGsHA%40mail.gmail.com%3E>
>>>> *Sat Oct 10 04:51:59 EDT 2015*Still michael best you could have
>>>> consulted the list here That someone calls you a liar therefor you act is
>>>> an ego based mindset Answer why you decided to not consult this list that
>>>> has profoundly smart
>>>> beings on it You could have asked this list for help we are interested
>>>> in helping with
>>>> such matters i would say and you could have done so without revealing
>>>> info
>>>> ... did this never cross your mind ? If it never even crossed your mind
>>>> to consult us i find there is something
>>>> terribly wrong
>>>
>>>
>>> On Sat, Oct 10, 2015 at 12:01 AM, coderman <coderman at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>> On 10/9/15, Michael Best <themikebest at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>> > ... *they never would've been published. *
>>>>
>>>> i find it useful to think of voice. published yes, with little voice.
>>>>
>>>> now it's most certainly a loud something!
>>>>   the published always was, however...
>>>>
>>>
>>>
>
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From Rayzer at riseup.net  Sat Oct 10 09:23:50 2015
From: Rayzer at riseup.net (Razer)
Date: Sat, 10 Oct 2015 09:23:50 -0700
Subject: 'The Pig's Lipstick' Was: [cryptome] Cryptome has been leaking its
 user logs for over a year
In-Reply-To: <561862BF.8020408@riseup.net>
References: <CANFTA0-4ZDCq-QMAj=KeT7i00OUvBWCZ2VM32HHsnzMiUhkMeg@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAJVRA1TAeEfByH4n=OUyBVQZJT+gBK4yENjjtTBwmxGN_wbH4A@mail.gmail.com>
 <56172A5E.6060907@riseup.net> <5142947.VjethuF63H@lapuntu>
 <561862BF.8020408@riseup.net>
Message-ID: <56193B96.5030103@riseup.net>



On 10/09/2015 05:58 PM, Mirimir wrote:
> Cloudflare starts looking good when your site is getting DOSed

Tell me Cloudflare is the only op on the planet with dDos-defense
technology and I'll kiss that pig.

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From Rayzer at riseup.net  Sat Oct 10 09:30:12 2015
From: Rayzer at riseup.net (Razer)
Date: Sat, 10 Oct 2015 09:30:12 -0700
Subject: [cryptome] Cryptome has been leaking its user logs for over a year
In-Reply-To: <3834290.gv7rWBnLsF@lapuntu>
References: <CANFTA0-4ZDCq-QMAj=KeT7i00OUvBWCZ2VM32HHsnzMiUhkMeg@mail.gmail.com>
 <56181688.9020802@riseup.net>
 <CAKtE3zeALjs94eEHOTyF=xhZRSmAzhbLt8jdPSfYcnaVUYNphQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <3834290.gv7rWBnLsF@lapuntu>
Message-ID: <56193D14.3090501@riseup.net>



On 10/10/2015 04:13 AM, rysiek wrote:
> Dnia piątek, 9 października 2015 15:42:51 Travis Biehn pisze:
>> 2) I hope IA and other parties don't know I was drooling over TS dox.
>> Use an anonymizing platform. If you're relying on the operator to 'not keep
>> logs' *you're doing it wrong*, not JY.

> This is classic "blaming the victim" move.

No it isn't. It's called "Taking Responsibility instead of depending on
others"

... It's SURVIVAL. Are you going to codepend on someone else for it?

>
> Should I take care of my own opsec? By all means.
> Is it okay to publish/sell logs by the service provider? No, no it isn't.
>


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From guninski at guninski.com  Fri Oct  9 23:53:26 2015
From: guninski at guninski.com (Georgi Guninski)
Date: Sat, 10 Oct 2015 09:53:26 +0300
Subject: Why cryptome sold web logs to their paying customers?
Message-ID: <20151010065326.GA2694@sivokote.iziade.m$>

The main question is:

1. Why cryptome sold web logs to their paying customers?

Related questions:

2. Did they do it on purpose?
3. Did LEAs already had the logs via sniffing (at that time cryptome.org
didn't have SSL AFAIK)?
4. Is it likely that the web server (and likely all internet connected
machines of cryptome operators) was compromised?

In other news JYA talks in nearly prose:
http://www.dailydot.com/politics/cryptome-ip-leak-john-young-michael-best/




From Rayzer at riseup.net  Sat Oct 10 09:58:44 2015
From: Rayzer at riseup.net (Razer)
Date: Sat, 10 Oct 2015 09:58:44 -0700
Subject: [cryptome] Re: [cryptome]
In-Reply-To: <56187E67.5090905@riseup.net>
References: <CANFTA08aZwfZHF=wL8mV_8qhijK39RfALQ7HfoTOb+eVsHgYjQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <56187E67.5090905@riseup.net>
Message-ID: <561943C4.4030400@riseup.net>



On 10/09/2015 07:56 PM, Mirimir wrote:
> In my world, people don't publish stuff that puts their [friends,
> allies, fellow travelers, etc] at risk. Even to make a point.

Seconding Grarpamp on this.

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From themikebest at gmail.com  Sat Oct 10 06:59:20 2015
From: themikebest at gmail.com (Michael Best)
Date: Sat, 10 Oct 2015 09:59:20 -0400
Subject: [cryptome] Re: NatSecGeek
In-Reply-To: <20151010135231.GD2694@sivokote.iziade.m$>
References: <CANFTA0-qPf1VhateDGgbWRuxTrua4H7fqVXJVGsg+Upx-WwfGw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAJVRA1Tujm68F6cg_o_JjjHtSC9Wxd86iEGSSeCxYW2=8xkyBQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <CANFTA0-hj_v0ezi-1qvr8X3ELmCTpzyUyTnADe-2QKQO441vKA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAGRDzQV3ps1jFwA9H2ZDL4RnMeZR7cj44Fo+U34YESonVVs-xw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CANFTA09n99=-pqgt-VDf6V5BFOk7EWGdyktaiKvJpaC4JL98cw@mail.gmail.com>
 <20151010135231.GD2694@sivokote.iziade.m$>
Message-ID: <CANFTA0_ar1V2csWrdKJGPote-n24cWvO9sfs7x+B_-jzkp8Qfw@mail.gmail.com>

NatSecGeek=National Security Geek. Other than recent Cryptome stuff, it's
mostly links to archives and datasets.


I assume "luser" is internet speak for "wild and crazy guy"?
http://www.nbc.com/saturday-night-live/video/the-festrunk-brothers/n8662 ;-)

On Sat, Oct 10, 2015 at 9:52 AM, Georgi Guninski <guninski at guninski.com>
wrote:

> Are you this twatter luser:
>
> NatSecGeek
>
> https://twitter.com/NatSecGeek
>
> Suggested by:
> http://www.dailydot.com/politics/cryptome-ip-leak-john-young-michael-best/
>
> In case of positive answer, what does "Nat" mean?
>
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From Rayzer at riseup.net  Sat Oct 10 10:10:35 2015
From: Rayzer at riseup.net (Razer)
Date: Sat, 10 Oct 2015 10:10:35 -0700
Subject: Why cryptome sold web logs to their paying customers?
In-Reply-To: <20151010065326.GA2694@sivokote.iziade.m$>
References: <20151010065326.GA2694@sivokote.iziade.m$>
Message-ID: <5619468B.2050103@riseup.net>

From the article:

> "He discovered the files when he uploaded the contents of the sticks
> to the Internet Archive..."

Where the fuck does Michael Best, "researcher", get off publishing
material THAT IS NOT HIS WORKS OR PLAINLY PUBLIC DOMAIN to IA?

This is an example of the kind of material IA expects to see:

https://archive.org/details/CabaleNewsServices

With permission of the creator... NOT server logs he just happens to
have lying around.

RR



On 10/09/2015 11:53 PM, Georgi Guninski wrote:
> The main question is:
>
> 1. Why cryptome sold web logs to their paying customers?
>
> Related questions:
>
> 2. Did they do it on purpose?
> 3. Did LEAs already had the logs via sniffing (at that time cryptome.org
> didn't have SSL AFAIK)?
> 4. Is it likely that the web server (and likely all internet connected
> machines of cryptome operators) was compromised?
>
> In other news JYA talks in nearly prose:
> http://www.dailydot.com/politics/cryptome-ip-leak-john-young-michael-best/
>


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From themikebest at gmail.com  Sat Oct 10 07:14:57 2015
From: themikebest at gmail.com (Michael Best)
Date: Sat, 10 Oct 2015 10:14:57 -0400
Subject: [cryptome] Re: NatSecGeek
In-Reply-To: <20151010140904.GE2694@sivokote.iziade.m$>
References: <CANFTA0-qPf1VhateDGgbWRuxTrua4H7fqVXJVGsg+Upx-WwfGw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAJVRA1Tujm68F6cg_o_JjjHtSC9Wxd86iEGSSeCxYW2=8xkyBQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <CANFTA0-hj_v0ezi-1qvr8X3ELmCTpzyUyTnADe-2QKQO441vKA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAGRDzQV3ps1jFwA9H2ZDL4RnMeZR7cj44Fo+U34YESonVVs-xw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CANFTA09n99=-pqgt-VDf6V5BFOk7EWGdyktaiKvJpaC4JL98cw@mail.gmail.com>
 <20151010135231.GD2694@sivokote.iziade.m$>
 <CANFTA0_ar1V2csWrdKJGPote-n24cWvO9sfs7x+B_-jzkp8Qfw@mail.gmail.com>
 <20151010140904.GE2694@sivokote.iziade.m$>
Message-ID: <CANFTA09QXePNmaqoWW-XMD_fFusAq65EMewzkMsYUjnZoSeJhA@mail.gmail.com>

Here's the windup... and the pitch...
It looks like it's gonna be an ad hominem!
Best doesn't swing at it. Ball one.

On Sat, Oct 10, 2015 at 10:09 AM, Georgi Guninski <guninski at guninski.com>
wrote:

> On Sat, Oct 10, 2015 at 09:59:20AM -0400, Michael Best wrote:
> > NatSecGeek=National Security Geek. Other than recent Cryptome stuff, it's
> > mostly links to archives and datasets.
> >
>
> I still fail to understand the answer to the first question.
>
> In case of positive answer, please define "National".
>
> "nations" bomb/nuke each other AFAICT.
>
> >
> > I assume "luser" is internet speak for "wild and crazy guy"?
> > http://www.nbc.com/saturday-night-live/video/the-festrunk-brothers/n8662
> ;-)
> >
> > On Sat, Oct 10, 2015 at 9:52 AM, Georgi Guninski <guninski at guninski.com>
> > wrote:
> >
> > > Are you this twatter luser:
> > >
> > > NatSecGeek
> > >
> > > https://twitter.com/NatSecGeek
> > >
> > > Suggested by:
> > >
> http://www.dailydot.com/politics/cryptome-ip-leak-john-young-michael-best/
> > >
> > > In case of positive answer, what does "Nat" mean?
> > >
>
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From themikebest at gmail.com  Sat Oct 10 07:23:00 2015
From: themikebest at gmail.com (Michael Best)
Date: Sat, 10 Oct 2015 10:23:00 -0400
Subject: [cryptome] Re: NatSecGeek
In-Reply-To: <20151010141819.GF2694@sivokote.iziade.m$>
References: <CANFTA0-qPf1VhateDGgbWRuxTrua4H7fqVXJVGsg+Upx-WwfGw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAJVRA1Tujm68F6cg_o_JjjHtSC9Wxd86iEGSSeCxYW2=8xkyBQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <CANFTA0-hj_v0ezi-1qvr8X3ELmCTpzyUyTnADe-2QKQO441vKA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAGRDzQV3ps1jFwA9H2ZDL4RnMeZR7cj44Fo+U34YESonVVs-xw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CANFTA09n99=-pqgt-VDf6V5BFOk7EWGdyktaiKvJpaC4JL98cw@mail.gmail.com>
 <20151010135231.GD2694@sivokote.iziade.m$>
 <CANFTA0_ar1V2csWrdKJGPote-n24cWvO9sfs7x+B_-jzkp8Qfw@mail.gmail.com>
 <20151010140904.GE2694@sivokote.iziade.m$>
 <CANFTA09QXePNmaqoWW-XMD_fFusAq65EMewzkMsYUjnZoSeJhA@mail.gmail.com>
 <20151010141819.GF2694@sivokote.iziade.m$>
Message-ID: <CANFTA08+QbS0ri+UTfkhjSRgTZ-HJ-e76KEJbSdQU45bZBeCgQ@mail.gmail.com>

Yep. Thought tacit acknowledgment in first answer was clear, but like it
was lost in translation as too often happens with email. My fault. Ad
hominem anticipation was in response to the bombing comment.

On Sat, Oct 10, 2015 at 10:18 AM, Georgi Guninski <guninski at guninski.com>
wrote:

> On Sat, Oct 10, 2015 at 10:14:57AM -0400, Michael Best wrote:
> > Here's the windup... and the pitch...
> > It looks like it's gonna be an ad hominem!
> > Best doesn't swing at it. Ball one.
> >
>
> In case you can't understand the question, are you this?:
> https://twitter.com/NatSecGeek
> According to:
> http://www.dailydot.com/politics/cryptome-ip-leak-john-young-michael-best/
>
>
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From Rayzer at riseup.net  Sat Oct 10 11:42:05 2015
From: Rayzer at riseup.net (Razer)
Date: Sat, 10 Oct 2015 11:42:05 -0700
Subject: [cryptome] Re: [cryptome] Re;Cryptome Re:Cryptome (etc ad naus)
In-Reply-To: <CAGRDzQWRPraNrJFuHeuekTxDAJ6K6N0JK4o+owjxX101_SamZg@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CANFTA08aZwfZHF=wL8mV_8qhijK39RfALQ7HfoTOb+eVsHgYjQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <56187E67.5090905@riseup.net> <561943C4.4030400@riseup.net>
 <CAGRDzQWRPraNrJFuHeuekTxDAJ6K6N0JK4o+owjxX101_SamZg@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <56195BFD.1050104@riseup.net>


Mea culpa I was seconding.

On 10/10/2015 11:00 AM, Cari Machet wrote:
>
> Thats fucking mirimir seconding grarpamp i fourth that shit so theres
> fucked up then theres fucked-fucked up
>
>


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From shelley at misanthropia.org  Sat Oct 10 11:51:33 2015
From: shelley at misanthropia.org (Shelley)
Date: Sat, 10 Oct 2015 11:51:33 -0700
Subject: Why cryptome sold web logs to their paying customers?
In-Reply-To: <5619468B.2050103@riseup.net>
References: <20151010065326.GA2694@sivokote.iziade.m$>
 <5619468B.2050103@riseup.net>
Message-ID: <20151010185116.9E349C00019@frontend1.nyi.internal>

On October 10, 2015 10:16:55 AM Razer <Rayzer at riseup.net> wrote:

> From the article:
>
> > "He discovered the files when he uploaded the contents of the sticks
> > to the Internet Archive..."
>
> Where the fuck does Michael Best, "researcher", get off publishing
> material THAT IS NOT HIS WORKS OR PLAINLY PUBLIC DOMAIN to IA?
>
> This is an example of the kind of material IA expects to see:
>
> https://archive.org/details/CabaleNewsServices
>
> With permission of the creator... NOT server logs he just happens to
> have lying around.
>
> RR


The Cryptome archives *are* publicly accessible.  John limits bots and 
leechers to a certain number of files per day (as is his right, he is 
paying for the bandwidth), approx 100 iirc, but anyone who can use search 
strings can find anything on the site.

In the past, John has given his blessing to uploading the Cryptome archives 
to the torrents.  The files number close to 100K: I would not expect 
someone to inspect each document and folder of a public archive before 
uploading it, but Mike Best took the extra step to contact JY when he saw 
the log files and asked if those were part of the public archive or if 
they'd been included by mistake.  If it had been resolved at that time, the 
log files would not have been published and we would not be having this 
particular discussion.

We can see from the hash on coderman's torrent from 2014 that those same 
log files were indeed included on the USB drives sent out by Cryptome and 
in the archives John uploaded a few months ago for us to seed on torrents.  
(Which, incidentally, I'd planned on seeding as well, until my seeder box 
bit the dust and I have yet to replace it. I can tell you I would *not* 
have parsed 98,000 files before seeding the torrent.)

I haven't yet stated my personal opinion on this because I have wanted this 
to be about the slide in question.  I've been taken aback by the attacks on 
the researcher and I am worried that it's going to scare off the next 
person with important info to share.  That's a lose/lose situation.

There is no clear answer here.  Yes, we are all responsible for our own 
opsec.  Absolutely. If we access the clearnet without encryption we are 
leaving digital DNA everywhere and we get to face the consequences.  This 
incident is a good reminder of this fact.

Should access logs be kept for that long?  Absolutely not.  From what I 
have read in the email exchange that was posted, the log files were 
included in a NetSol total restore.  My guess is that John/Cryptome did not 
intentionally keep these files, and did not realize these files were 
included in the archive.  When I do incremental backups or updates on my 
own systems, I don't usually go back and check the integrity of files I've 
already archived in my closed system.  I can see where this could be an 
honest mistake that has gotten blown way out of proportion.  It's a good 
lesson to be more aware of these types of glitches.

Can we collectively agree that it's not an ideal situation, but that we are 
all human and, as such, make mistakes - and just move on to the real issue 
of the veracity/provenance of the slide attributed to the GCHQ, which 
purportedly shows the (illegal) interception of the data of Cryptome visitors?

That's the real issue here, and it *does* matter.  I implore us all to let 
the noise die down and get to the matter at hand.

Yes, with UKUSA / five eyes, GCHQ likely gets access to this type of data 
from the NSA just for the asking.  That, too, is not the point in this 
instance.

/rant

-Shelley


>
>
>
> On 10/09/2015 11:53 PM, Georgi Guninski wrote:
> > The main question is:
> >
> > 1. Why cryptome sold web logs to their paying customers?
> >
> > Related questions:
> >
> > 2. Did they do it on purpose?
> > 3. Did LEAs already had the logs via sniffing (at that time cryptome.org
> > didn't have SSL AFAIK)?
> > 4. Is it likely that the web server (and likely all internet connected
> > machines of cryptome operators) was compromised?
> >
> > In other news JYA talks in nearly prose:
> > http://www.dailydot.com/politics/cryptome-ip-leak-john-young-michael-best/
> >
>
>





From carimachet at gmail.com  Sat Oct 10 01:51:59 2015
From: carimachet at gmail.com (Cari Machet)
Date: Sat, 10 Oct 2015 11:51:59 +0300
Subject: [cryptome] Re: [cryptome]
In-Reply-To: <CAD2Ti2_SgjUTU9X8g7+v0suDjQ=JorM8qN9W_CxbJNENPhbFRQ@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CANFTA08aZwfZHF=wL8mV_8qhijK39RfALQ7HfoTOb+eVsHgYjQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <56187E67.5090905@riseup.net>
 <CAD2Ti2_SgjUTU9X8g7+v0suDjQ=JorM8qN9W_CxbJNENPhbFRQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAGRDzQX8MeKa3DuwLaNpW-jfTneECwos-oXhSxo0iCb5V+GsHA@mail.gmail.com>

Still michael best you could have consulted the list here

That someone calls you a liar therefor you act is an ego based mindset

Answer why you decided to not consult this list that has profoundly smart
beings on it

You could have asked this list for help we are interested in helping with
such matters i would say and you could have done so without revealing info
... did this never cross your mind ?

If it never even crossed your mind to consult us i find there is something
terribly wrong
On Oct 10, 2015 8:28 AM, "grarpamp" <grarpamp at gmail.com> wrote:

> > refused to acknowledge or fix the leak at that point ... that
> stubbornness was far more imprudent and damaging
>
> > In my world, people don't publish stuff that puts their [friends,
> > allies, fellow travelers, etc] at risk. Even to make a point. Even if
> > other assholes have already put that stuff out there.
>
> ... some important truths in the business.
>
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From Rayzer at riseup.net  Sat Oct 10 12:30:01 2015
From: Rayzer at riseup.net (Razer)
Date: Sat, 10 Oct 2015 12:30:01 -0700
Subject: Why cryptome sold web logs to their paying customers?
In-Reply-To: <20151010185116.9E349C00019@frontend1.nyi.internal>
References: <20151010065326.GA2694@sivokote.iziade.m$>
 <5619468B.2050103@riseup.net>
 <20151010185116.9E349C00019@frontend1.nyi.internal>
Message-ID: <56196739.2040408@riseup.net>



On 10/10/2015 11:51 AM, Shelley wrote:
>
> The Cryptome archives *are* publicly accessible.

Imho It's NOT his (Best's) material to decide to post without permission
of the creator. Publicly available or not, at Archive.org.


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From cathalgarvey at cathalgarvey.me  Sat Oct 10 04:30:10 2015
From: cathalgarvey at cathalgarvey.me (Cathal (Phone))
Date: Sat, 10 Oct 2015 12:30:10 +0100
Subject: [cryptome] Cryptome has been leaking its user logs for over a year
In-Reply-To: <3834290.gv7rWBnLsF@lapuntu>
References: <CANFTA0-4ZDCq-QMAj=KeT7i00OUvBWCZ2VM32HHsnzMiUhkMeg@mail.gmail.com>
 <56181688.9020802@riseup.net>
 <CAKtE3zeALjs94eEHOTyF=xhZRSmAzhbLt8jdPSfYcnaVUYNphQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <3834290.gv7rWBnLsF@lapuntu>
Message-ID: <7834CA5D-1BF4-41AE-B6C6-0CED014B82D8@cathalgarvey.me>

Here here!

On 10 October 2015 12:13:06 IST, rysiek <rysiek at hackerspace.pl> wrote:
>Dnia piątek, 9 października 2015 15:42:51 Travis Biehn pisze:
>> 2) I hope IA and other parties don't know I was drooling over TS dox.
>> Use an anonymizing platform. If you're relying on the operator to
>'not keep
>> logs' *you're doing it wrong*, not JY.
>
>This is classic "blaming the victim" move.
>
>Should I take care of my own opsec? By all means.
>Is it okay to publish/sell logs by the service provider? No, no it
>isn't.
>
>-- 
>Pozdrawiam,
>Michał "rysiek" Woźniak
>
>Zmieniam klucz GPG :: http://rys.io/pl/147
>GPG Key Transition :: http://rys.io/en/147

-- 
Sent from my Android device with K-9 Mail. Please excuse my brevity.
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From shelley at misanthropia.org  Sat Oct 10 12:44:13 2015
From: shelley at misanthropia.org (Shelley)
Date: Sat, 10 Oct 2015 12:44:13 -0700
Subject: Why cryptome sold web logs to their paying customers?
In-Reply-To: <56196739.2040408@riseup.net>
References: <20151010065326.GA2694@sivokote.iziade.m$>
 <5619468B.2050103@riseup.net>
 <20151010185116.9E349C00019@frontend1.nyi.internal>
 <56196739.2040408@riseup.net>
Message-ID: <20151010194357.3A800C00013@frontend1.nyi.internal>

On October 10, 2015 12:30:08 PM Razer <Rayzer at riseup.net> wrote:


> On 10/10/2015 11:51 AM, Shelley wrote:
> >
> > The Cryptome archives *are* publicly accessible.
>
> Imho It's NOT his (Best's) material to decide to post without permission
> of the creator. Publicly available or not, at Archive.org.
>


You don't take the permission to upload the same information JY allowed to 
be uploaded to public torrents as implied permission to post the *same* 
files on archive.org?

Also, before Best posted anything at all, he contacted John.  Twice.  JY 
could have expressed his disapproval at that time.  We know about it 
because Best posted it to the list: how many other mirrors are there?  Will 
you find them, check them all for the log files in question and chastise 
those posters as well?

Cryptome has never endorsed the authenticity of any specific mirrors, but 
has never discouraged the mirroring of the archives (at least not to my 
knowledge, and I've been around for a while.)

As I've stated, I'm fairly certain my info is in the dataset and it's on me 
for not employing better personal browsing security.  I'm not angry with 
any of the parties involved; sunlight is the best disinfectant, and this 
discussion can become a positive thing if serves to remind us that despite 
best intentions, someone, somewhere, is always watching and it is up to us 
to protect ourselves.

-S





From rysiek at hackerspace.pl  Sat Oct 10 04:13:06 2015
From: rysiek at hackerspace.pl (rysiek)
Date: Sat, 10 Oct 2015 13:13:06 +0200
Subject: [cryptome] Cryptome has been leaking its user logs for over a year
In-Reply-To: <CAKtE3zeALjs94eEHOTyF=xhZRSmAzhbLt8jdPSfYcnaVUYNphQ@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CANFTA0-4ZDCq-QMAj=KeT7i00OUvBWCZ2VM32HHsnzMiUhkMeg@mail.gmail.com>
 <56181688.9020802@riseup.net>
 <CAKtE3zeALjs94eEHOTyF=xhZRSmAzhbLt8jdPSfYcnaVUYNphQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <3834290.gv7rWBnLsF@lapuntu>

Dnia piątek, 9 października 2015 15:42:51 Travis Biehn pisze:
> 2) I hope IA and other parties don't know I was drooling over TS dox.
> Use an anonymizing platform. If you're relying on the operator to 'not keep
> logs' *you're doing it wrong*, not JY.

This is classic "blaming the victim" move.

Should I take care of my own opsec? By all means.
Is it okay to publish/sell logs by the service provider? No, no it isn't.

-- 
Pozdrawiam,
Michał "rysiek" Woźniak

Zmieniam klucz GPG :: http://rys.io/pl/147
GPG Key Transition :: http://rys.io/en/147
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From rysiek at hackerspace.pl  Sat Oct 10 04:17:02 2015
From: rysiek at hackerspace.pl (rysiek)
Date: Sat, 10 Oct 2015 13:17:02 +0200
Subject: Introduce randommess in keypress timings
In-Reply-To: <636897858.795946.1444330101517.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com>
References: <636897858.795946.1444330101517.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com>
 <636897858.795946.1444330101517.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <2438668.ZNrK6mfEhj@lapuntu>

Dnia czwartek, 8 października 2015 18:48:21 Michael Nelson pisze:
> > Is there anything that tells us how many bits of entropy are found in the
> > brainsong (rhythm, melody) of random users?
>
> Five minutes of Swedish death metal should get you around 256 bits.

You mean "256 bpm", right?

-- 
Pozdrawiam,
Michał "rysiek" Woźniak

Zmieniam klucz GPG :: http://rys.io/pl/147
GPG Key Transition :: http://rys.io/en/147
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From Rayzer at riseup.net  Sat Oct 10 13:28:27 2015
From: Rayzer at riseup.net (Razer)
Date: Sat, 10 Oct 2015 13:28:27 -0700
Subject: Why cryptome sold web logs to their paying customers?
In-Reply-To: <20151010194357.3A800C00013@frontend1.nyi.internal>
References: <20151010065326.GA2694@sivokote.iziade.m$>
 <5619468B.2050103@riseup.net>
 <20151010185116.9E349C00019@frontend1.nyi.internal>
 <56196739.2040408@riseup.net>
 <20151010194357.3A800C00013@frontend1.nyi.internal>
Message-ID: <561974EB.70803@riseup.net>



On 10/10/2015 12:44 PM, Shelley wrote:
> You don't take the permission to upload the same information JY
> allowed to be uploaded to public torrents as implied permission to
> post the *same* files on archive.org? 

In mho? Nope.

The Cabale News Service audio files I uploaded to IA were available for
download and streaming... even redistribution... but not redistribution
for commercial purposes. I say Best's name's appearance in DailyDot or
any other media constitutes an ongoing for-profit commercial motivation
as redistributor.

In one incident at IA that's not exactly the same, but similar enough
for example, they .htmlaccess-ed-into-obilvion the BeeMp3 website's
ability to crib the Cabale episodes and display download links to the
files on pages with advertising, (and Beemp3 didn't even bother to post
the Creative Commons info).

RR
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From Rayzer at riseup.net  Sat Oct 10 13:33:26 2015
From: Rayzer at riseup.net (Razer)
Date: Sat, 10 Oct 2015 13:33:26 -0700
Subject: Why cryptome sold web logs to their paying customers?
In-Reply-To: <CANFTA09SE-Q4uy1tgwZZdROrtXq2i3DUjSG1bubf1nFBZfnfMw@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CANFTA09SE-Q4uy1tgwZZdROrtXq2i3DUjSG1bubf1nFBZfnfMw@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <56197616.2020501@riseup.net>

Nervous laugh...

On 10/10/2015 01:32 PM, Michael Best wrote:
>
>     I say Best's name's appearance in DailyDot or
>     any other media constitutes an ongoing for-profit commercial
>     motivation
>     as redistributor.
>
>
> HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA. 

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From themikebest at gmail.com  Sat Oct 10 10:38:47 2015
From: themikebest at gmail.com (Michael Best)
Date: Sat, 10 Oct 2015 13:38:47 -0400
Subject: [cryptome] Re: NatSecGeek
In-Reply-To: <CANFTA08+QbS0ri+UTfkhjSRgTZ-HJ-e76KEJbSdQU45bZBeCgQ@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CANFTA0-qPf1VhateDGgbWRuxTrua4H7fqVXJVGsg+Upx-WwfGw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAJVRA1Tujm68F6cg_o_JjjHtSC9Wxd86iEGSSeCxYW2=8xkyBQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <CANFTA0-hj_v0ezi-1qvr8X3ELmCTpzyUyTnADe-2QKQO441vKA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAGRDzQV3ps1jFwA9H2ZDL4RnMeZR7cj44Fo+U34YESonVVs-xw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CANFTA09n99=-pqgt-VDf6V5BFOk7EWGdyktaiKvJpaC4JL98cw@mail.gmail.com>
 <20151010135231.GD2694@sivokote.iziade.m$>
 <CANFTA0_ar1V2csWrdKJGPote-n24cWvO9sfs7x+B_-jzkp8Qfw@mail.gmail.com>
 <20151010140904.GE2694@sivokote.iziade.m$>
 <CANFTA09QXePNmaqoWW-XMD_fFusAq65EMewzkMsYUjnZoSeJhA@mail.gmail.com>
 <20151010141819.GF2694@sivokote.iziade.m$>
 <CANFTA08+QbS0ri+UTfkhjSRgTZ-HJ-e76KEJbSdQU45bZBeCgQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <04208030-FF28-4110-9565-14F6E97A82C6@gmail.com>

Just had it pointed out to me "luser" was just internet slang, and not really an insult. Sorry I got a little defensive after that.  

For me, "national security" is anything a nation needs to prosper and survive, including national medical care, education, ensuring a healthy job market and that there's infrastructure for everyone to get food, water, information, and from place to place. A lot of my emphasis is on the intelligence aspects of national security, because I started off and got hooked on the subject while reading military history and ex-spook/spy memoirs. I'm fascinated by the economic side of things and think it's under represented, and we need more/better education (at least in the U.S.) that's gauged to a realistic job market and caters to the individual's actual capabilities. I generally don't talk about that part because I only understand it in the broadest terms, and the best I can do is try to listen to the experts in that field and people who are smarter than me. And then there's separating policy from politics...

I hope that helps clarify some. Sorry again for assuming that your question was insincere/attacking. 

Sent from my iPhone

> On Oct 10, 2015, at 10:23, Michael Best <themikebest at gmail.com> wrote:
> 
> Yep. Thought tacit acknowledgment in first answer was clear, but like it was lost in translation as too often happens with email. My fault. Ad hominem anticipation was in response to the bombing comment.
> 
>> On Sat, Oct 10, 2015 at 10:18 AM, Georgi Guninski <guninski at guninski.com> wrote:
>> On Sat, Oct 10, 2015 at 10:14:57AM -0400, Michael Best wrote:
>> > Here's the windup... and the pitch...
>> > It looks like it's gonna be an ad hominem!
>> > Best doesn't swing at it. Ball one.
>> >
>> 
>> In case you can't understand the question, are you this?:
>> https://twitter.com/NatSecGeek
>> According to:
>> http://www.dailydot.com/politics/cryptome-ip-leak-john-young-michael-best/
> 
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From Rayzer at riseup.net  Sat Oct 10 13:39:55 2015
From: Rayzer at riseup.net (Razer)
Date: Sat, 10 Oct 2015 13:39:55 -0700
Subject: Why cryptome sold web logs to their paying customers?
In-Reply-To: <7628BF0B-D97A-469F-A77E-7263DB55DF9B@gmail.com>
References: <CANFTA09SE-Q4uy1tgwZZdROrtXq2i3DUjSG1bubf1nFBZfnfMw@mail.gmail.com>
 <56197616.2020501@riseup.net>
 <7628BF0B-D97A-469F-A77E-7263DB55DF9B@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <5619779B.6010602@riseup.net>



On 10/10/2015 01:35 PM, Michael Best wrote:
> Nope, laughing at someone who has no idea how little a media mention
> is worth in terms of money.
>
> Sent from my iPhone

Yes I do and it depends on how much money you consider 'money'... For
some, paying the rent is enough. Ask any artist or musician.

RR


>
> On Oct 10, 2015, at 16:33, Razer <Rayzer at riseup.net
> <mailto:Rayzer at riseup.net>> wrote:
>
>> Nervous laugh...
>>
>> On 10/10/2015 01:32 PM, Michael Best wrote:
>>>
>>>     I say Best's name's appearance in DailyDot or
>>>     any other media constitutes an ongoing for-profit commercial
>>>     motivation
>>>     as redistributor.
>>>
>>>
>>> HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA. 
>>

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From themikebest at gmail.com  Sat Oct 10 10:50:04 2015
From: themikebest at gmail.com (Michael Best)
Date: Sat, 10 Oct 2015 13:50:04 -0400
Subject: The GCHQ Cryptome slide could be a mockup/disinfo
Message-ID: <CANFTA0-sZWFLfugE8m2fKwPuE4yo1ikXi8upPG5QTKXmGWEGFg@mail.gmail.com>

Did you see the first one where I asked for help verifying the information
in redacted form, specifically from John Young/Cryptome but in no way
excluding the list?

Or that after I posted the redacted version of the logs, and before John
Young first denied they were real (before denying it again then admitting
it again), he sent me an email saying ""Keep at it."

Or my general request on Twitter, which wasn't limited to the list and
occurred after the list had been alerted to the matter?
https://twitter.com/NatSecGeek/status/651760609189568512


> Ok i read it all see no fucking ask of this community for help on the
> matter
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From Rayzer at riseup.net  Sat Oct 10 14:06:32 2015
From: Rayzer at riseup.net (Razer)
Date: Sat, 10 Oct 2015 14:06:32 -0700
Subject: [cryptome] Re: [cryptome]
In-Reply-To: <4314758.UDpymEa7mP@lapuntu>
References: <CANFTA08aZwfZHF=wL8mV_8qhijK39RfALQ7HfoTOb+eVsHgYjQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <56187E67.5090905@riseup.net> <561943C4.4030400@riseup.net>
 <4314758.UDpymEa7mP@lapuntu>
Message-ID: <56197DD8.8080409@riseup.net>



On 10/10/2015 01:40 PM, rysiek wrote:
> Dnia sobota, 10 października 2015 09:58:44 Razer pisze:
>> On 10/09/2015 07:56 PM, Mirimir wrote:
>>> In my world, people don't publish stuff that puts their [friends,
>>> allies, fellow travelers, etc] at risk. Even to make a point.
>> Seconding Grarpamp on this.
> Are you saying John Young shouldn't have published the server logs in the 
> first place? Can't agree more!
>

I'm saying neither of them should do so, yes.

RR

Ps. I still don't know what the motivation for JYA's giving/selling the
logs, but I'm pretty sure of the other party's motivations.

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From Rayzer at riseup.net  Sat Oct 10 14:08:53 2015
From: Rayzer at riseup.net (Razer)
Date: Sat, 10 Oct 2015 14:08:53 -0700
Subject: Why cryptome sold web logs to their paying customers?
In-Reply-To: <57AAD486-161E-46FA-B270-9C70756C61FA@gmail.com>
References: <CANFTA09SE-Q4uy1tgwZZdROrtXq2i3DUjSG1bubf1nFBZfnfMw@mail.gmail.com>
 <56197616.2020501@riseup.net>
 <7628BF0B-D97A-469F-A77E-7263DB55DF9B@gmail.com>
 <5619779B.6010602@riseup.net>
 <57AAD486-161E-46FA-B270-9C70756C61FA@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <56197E65.8060201@riseup.net>

Got it. Totally altruistic motivation...

On 10/10/2015 01:46 PM, Michael Best wrote:
> "Any money" is still more than I'll make off this. My only
> compensation is a headache from ridiculous accusations. 
>
> Any chance you hold this same standard to Snowden and consider his
> press coverage as 
> "an ongoing for-profit commercial motivation as redistributor" for the
> NSA docs?
>
> Sent from my iPhone
>
> On Oct 10, 2015, at 16:39, Razer <Rayzer at riseup.net
> <mailto:Rayzer at riseup.net>> wrote:
>
>>
>>
>> On 10/10/2015 01:35 PM, Michael Best wrote:
>>> Nope, laughing at someone who has no idea how little a media mention
>>> is worth in terms of money.
>>>
>>> Sent from my iPhone
>>
>> Yes I do and it depends on how much money you consider 'money'... For
>> some, paying the rent is enough. Ask any artist or musician.
>>
>> RR
>>
>>
>>>
>>> On Oct 10, 2015, at 16:33, Razer <Rayzer at riseup.net
>>> <mailto:Rayzer at riseup.net>> wrote:
>>>
>>>> Nervous laugh...
>>>>
>>>> On 10/10/2015 01:32 PM, Michael Best wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>     I say Best's name's appearance in DailyDot or
>>>>>     any other media constitutes an ongoing for-profit commercial
>>>>>     motivation
>>>>>     as redistributor.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA. 
>>>>
>>

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From themikebest at gmail.com  Sat Oct 10 11:24:03 2015
From: themikebest at gmail.com (Michael Best)
Date: Sat, 10 Oct 2015 14:24:03 -0400
Subject: [cryptome] Re: [cryptome]
Message-ID: <CANFTA09oybNCQ83aumdCkXNBbnt0Cky7t_juFcBanFRfkr6ucg@mail.gmail.com>

*Cari Machet* carimachet at gmail.com
<carimachet%40gmail.com?Subject=Re%3A%20%5Bcryptome%5D%20Re%3A%20%5Bcryptome%5D&In-Reply-To=%3CCAGRDzQWRPraNrJFuHeuekTxDAJ6K6N0JK4o%2BowjxX101_SamZg%40mail.gmail.com%3E>
*Sat Oct 10 14:00:00 EDT 2015*

> Everything leaks but dont be the one leaking it - the determinant leaker
> axiom



... ... John Young would be the one who leaked it, Cari. And refused to fix
it. I posted when it became clear he wouldn't stop and was calling the
disclosure disinfo.
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From guninski at guninski.com  Sat Oct 10 04:51:14 2015
From: guninski at guninski.com (Georgi Guninski)
Date: Sat, 10 Oct 2015 14:51:14 +0300
Subject: Introduce randommess in keypress timings
In-Reply-To: <CAKtE3zcdDHQJA6fvZhq3oSYrpzpb7R7MwRJym2rJ39DTd=wPxg@mail.gmail.com>
References: <636897858.795946.1444330101517.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com>
 <9A043F3CF02CD34C8E74AC1594475C73F4B2E82D@uxcn10-5.UoA.auckland.ac.nz>
 <CAKtE3zcdDHQJA6fvZhq3oSYrpzpb7R7MwRJym2rJ39DTd=wPxg@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <20151010115114.GB2694@sivokote.iziade.m$>

On Fri, Oct 09, 2015 at 11:49:19AM -0400, Travis Biehn wrote:
> Morelike 1 bit. Amirite? [The song you selected.]
> 
> Personally, I like to pipe /dev/urandom to my speakers for sourcing
> keypress-timing based passwords.
> 

Me too. It is well known [0] this is very relaxing.

Rarely, just to refresh my memory, I XOR /dev/urandom with a Windows NT
CD played _backwards_ ;) [1]


[0] to those who know it
[1] according to ancient jokes, this MUST NOT be used for RandomMess
entropy because of enormous bias to certain number


> -Travis
> 
> On Fri, Oct 9, 2015 at 11:25 AM, Peter Gutmann <pgut001 at cs.auckland.ac.nz>
> wrote:
> 
> > Michael Nelson <nelson_mikel at yahoo.com> writes:
> >
> > >Five minutes of Swedish death metal should get you around 256 bits.
> >
> > Wrong entropy source, if you go for Norwegian black metal you get at least
> > 1024 bits of entropy [0].  Having said that, Putin's foreign policy
> > speeches
> > will get you at least 512 bits of entropy in the same time frame.
> >
> > Peter.
> >
> > [0] From an estimate done at Tons of Rock in Norway in June of this year.
> >
> >
> 
> 
> -- 
> Twitter <https://twitter.com/tbiehn> | LinkedIn
> <http://www.linkedin.com/in/travisbiehn> | GitHub <http://github.com/tbiehn>
> | TravisBiehn.com <http://www.travisbiehn.com> | Google Plus
> <https://plus.google.com/+TravisBiehn>




From mirimir at riseup.net  Sat Oct 10 14:24:44 2015
From: mirimir at riseup.net (Mirimir)
Date: Sat, 10 Oct 2015 15:24:44 -0600
Subject: 'The Pig's Lipstick' Was: [cryptome] Cryptome has been leaking
 its user logs for over a year
In-Reply-To: <56193B96.5030103@riseup.net>
References: <CANFTA0-4ZDCq-QMAj=KeT7i00OUvBWCZ2VM32HHsnzMiUhkMeg@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAJVRA1TAeEfByH4n=OUyBVQZJT+gBK4yENjjtTBwmxGN_wbH4A@mail.gmail.com>
 <56172A5E.6060907@riseup.net> <5142947.VjethuF63H@lapuntu>
 <561862BF.8020408@riseup.net> <56193B96.5030103@riseup.net>
Message-ID: <5619821C.1040204@riseup.net>

On 10/10/2015 10:23 AM, Razer wrote:
> 
> 
> On 10/09/2015 05:58 PM, Mirimir wrote:
>> Cloudflare starts looking good when your site is getting DOSed
> 
> Tell me Cloudflare is the only op on the planet with dDos-defense
> technology and I'll kiss that pig.

Tell me about one that works for onion services, and I'll be grateful.




From guninski at guninski.com  Sat Oct 10 05:27:45 2015
From: guninski at guninski.com (Georgi Guninski)
Date: Sat, 10 Oct 2015 15:27:45 +0300
Subject: [cryptome] Cryptome has been leaking its user logs for over a year
In-Reply-To: <3834290.gv7rWBnLsF@lapuntu>
References: <CANFTA0-4ZDCq-QMAj=KeT7i00OUvBWCZ2VM32HHsnzMiUhkMeg@mail.gmail.com>
 <56181688.9020802@riseup.net>
 <CAKtE3zeALjs94eEHOTyF=xhZRSmAzhbLt8jdPSfYcnaVUYNphQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <3834290.gv7rWBnLsF@lapuntu>
Message-ID: <20151010122745.GC2694@sivokote.iziade.m$>

On Sat, Oct 10, 2015 at 01:13:06PM +0200, rysiek wrote:
> Dnia piątek, 9 października 2015 15:42:51 Travis Biehn pisze:
> > 2) I hope IA and other parties don't know I was drooling over TS dox.
> > Use an anonymizing platform. If you're relying on the operator to 'not keep
> > logs' *you're doing it wrong*, not JY.
> 
> This is classic "blaming the victim" move.
> 

And who is the victim?


> Should I take care of my own opsec? By all means.
> Is it okay to publish/sell logs by the service provider? No, no it
> isn't.

Selling logs to the customers you logged and who (if they notice) likely
will do the best to discredit you?

https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Joint_Threat_Research_Intelligence_Group&oldid=670966374

Joint Threat Research Intelligence Group (JTRIG)

---
In June 2015, NSA files published by Glenn Greenwald revealed new
details about JTRIG's work at covertly manipulating online
communities.[6]
---




From Rayzer at riseup.net  Sat Oct 10 15:30:33 2015
From: Rayzer at riseup.net (Razer)
Date: Sat, 10 Oct 2015 15:30:33 -0700
Subject: 'The Pig's Lipstick' Was: [cryptome] Cryptome has been leaking
 its user logs for over a year
In-Reply-To: <5619821C.1040204@riseup.net>
References: <CANFTA0-4ZDCq-QMAj=KeT7i00OUvBWCZ2VM32HHsnzMiUhkMeg@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAJVRA1TAeEfByH4n=OUyBVQZJT+gBK4yENjjtTBwmxGN_wbH4A@mail.gmail.com>
 <56172A5E.6060907@riseup.net> <5142947.VjethuF63H@lapuntu>
 <561862BF.8020408@riseup.net> <56193B96.5030103@riseup.net>
 <5619821C.1040204@riseup.net>
Message-ID: <56199189.10402@riseup.net>



On 10/10/2015 02:24 PM, Mirimir wrote:
> On 10/10/2015 10:23 AM, Razer wrote:
>>
>> On 10/09/2015 05:58 PM, Mirimir wrote:
>>> Cloudflare starts looking good when your site is getting DOSed
>> Tell me Cloudflare is the only op on the planet with dDos-defense
>> technology and I'll kiss that pig.
> Tell me about one that works for onion services, and I'll be grateful.
>
>

I suspect one of Cloudflare'a honeypot operation is logging tor exit
nodes and users for the feds.

Assuming that, if you WANT dDos prevention from cloudflare for .onion
addresses, feel free to use them.



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From Rayzer at riseup.net  Sat Oct 10 15:36:16 2015
From: Rayzer at riseup.net (Razer)
Date: Sat, 10 Oct 2015 15:36:16 -0700
Subject: Why cryptome sold web logs to their paying customers?
In-Reply-To: <361130450.tI8aiBKpxX@lapuntu>
References: <CANFTA09SE-Q4uy1tgwZZdROrtXq2i3DUjSG1bubf1nFBZfnfMw@mail.gmail.com>
 <7628BF0B-D97A-469F-A77E-7263DB55DF9B@gmail.com>
 <5619779B.6010602@riseup.net> <361130450.tI8aiBKpxX@lapuntu>
Message-ID: <561992E0.2060502@riseup.net>



On 10/10/2015 01:57 PM, rysiek wrote:
> Dnia sobota, 10 października 2015 13:39:55 Razer pisze:
>> On 10/10/2015 01:35 PM, Michael Best wrote:
>>> Nope, laughing at someone who has no idea how little a media mention
>>> is worth in terms of money.
>>>
>>> Sent from my iPhone
>> Yes I do and it depends on how much money you consider 'money'... For
>> some, paying the rent is enough. Ask any artist or musician.
> So... are you saying Michael Best is profiting from disclosure of Cryptome 
> server logs with full metadata of Cryptome users? I wonder who made those logs 
> available in the first place!

I dunno. Did BB make any money from acting the 'unofficial spokesman for
anonymous', or did that happen later, now that he has a contributor spot
on the_Intercept_

>
> Are you also saying that John Young's name's appearance in DailyDot or any 
> other media constitutes an ongoing for-profit commercial motivation as 
> distributor?
>

Apples-Oranges. John Young's appearance in name was not by his choice.

RR


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From themikebest at gmail.com  Sat Oct 10 12:52:08 2015
From: themikebest at gmail.com (Michael Best)
Date: Sat, 10 Oct 2015 15:52:08 -0400
Subject: Why cryptome sold web logs to their paying customers?
Message-ID: <CANFTA0-+N9YRkv8AVg-QrtE4aA2ngV_Msa6w-q1Nw=UZCM9PAA@mail.gmail.com>

*Razer* Rayzer at riseup.net
<Rayzer%40riseup.net?Subject=Re%3A%20Why%20cryptome%20sold%20web%20logs%20to%20their%20paying%20customers%3F&In-Reply-To=%3C56196739.2040408%40riseup.net%3E>
*Sat Oct 10 15:30:01 EDT 2015*

On 10/10/2015 11:51 AM, Shelley wrote:
>>* The Cryptome archives *are* publicly accessible.
*
Imho It's NOT his (Best's) material to decide to post without permission
of the creator. Publicly available or not, at Archive.org.


Cryptome owns the copyright for very little of the material in their
archive. Most of it is public domain items or things that were reprinted
from elsewhere, like news articles. John uses these under fair use, for
educational and research purposes. If John wants to assert a copyright
claim for the items that they did originally produce, then they are welcome
to do so. I'm sure they're capable of it without you.

But I'm guessing that won't convince you, so maybe John Young can. Let's
hear from him, shall we?

"We would have dumped it, the whole thing. Everyone else likes to play this
game: 'What if we harm somebody' or all this kind of crap. Which is
strictly cowardice."

Deborah Natsios said that one of their goals is "To pry open the privatised
domain, the realm of copyright interests, the not-public domain, the
not-public space of corporate interests—but there are private security
guards, global security mercenaries who patrol that boundary."

John then added "We're great advocates of plagiarism and stealing."

I feel like posting the entire archive for educational and research
purposes is entirely fair game. He argues that Citizenfour should be in the
public domain, and I'm sure he'd make that same argument about his archive.
If not, he'll speak up.

--Mike
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From themikebest at gmail.com  Sat Oct 10 13:24:49 2015
From: themikebest at gmail.com (Michael Best)
Date: Sat, 10 Oct 2015 16:24:49 -0400
Subject: The GCHQ Cryptome slide could be a mockup/disinfo
In-Reply-To: <CAGRDzQX9m6sZ_adD3ZW+MLG0kG110eubAHs8YcmsdK0cnEDBCg@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CANFTA0-sZWFLfugE8m2fKwPuE4yo1ikXi8upPG5QTKXmGWEGFg@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAGRDzQX9m6sZ_adD3ZW+MLG0kG110eubAHs8YcmsdK0cnEDBCg@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CANFTA0-1LCEFBwn0cNXeEDQ9becm4=XZLf1HyGyj0S6XQiENbw@mail.gmail.com>

Again, my first post asked for help and no one seemed interested. Yes, I
mentioned John by name but didn't exclude anyone. I mad general open pleas,
too. Sorry I didn't get your specific approval as one of my steps first, or
explicitly ask the list instead of implicitly asking them on the list and
explicitly asking everyone elsewhere.

Can't change what's been done, but I'm sure John Young will welcome your
advice on what to publish and when, and with what redactions exactly as
much as I do. Feel free to keep criticizing my not asking the list enough,
but I'm done with that pointless debate.

Still not convinced? Here's John's take on leaking and reactions: "We would
have dumped it, the whole thing. Everyone else likes to play this game:
'What if we harm somebody' or all this kind of crap. Which is strictly
cowardice."

On Sat, Oct 10, 2015 at 4:09 PM, Cari Machet <carimachet at gmail.com> wrote:

> Sir i am not in your head
>
> I get it john young leaked logs you pointed it out he waffled and then did
> admit it but sir you also leaked logs unredacted and i see no evidence of
> an ask by you of this list for help
>
> It could have been "hey is anyone interested in helping me get through
> this difficulty with a compromised log of a site" simple stuff ... if no
> one replied another more pointed ask could have come but instead you
> replicated
>
> Listen have a think on what is being critisized about your process ...
> criticizm can be healthy to absorb and we can shift out like that ...thru
> council with others we can have many minds
> On Oct 10, 2015 8:50 PM, "Michael Best" <themikebest at gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> Did you see the first one where I asked for help verifying the
>> information in redacted form, specifically from John Young/Cryptome but in
>> no way excluding the list?
>>
>> Or that after I posted the redacted version of the logs, and before John
>> Young first denied they were real (before denying it again then admitting
>> it again), he sent me an email saying ""Keep at it."
>>
>> Or my general request on Twitter, which wasn't limited to the list and
>> occurred after the list had been alerted to the matter?
>> https://twitter.com/NatSecGeek/status/651760609189568512
>>
>>
>>> Ok i read it all see no fucking ask of this community for help on the
>>> matter
>>
>>
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From themikebest at gmail.com  Sat Oct 10 13:30:28 2015
From: themikebest at gmail.com (Michael Best)
Date: Sat, 10 Oct 2015 16:30:28 -0400
Subject: [cryptome] Re: [cryptome]
Message-ID: <CANFTA09a_9Zd_3-36cZWvKttfEcJa=cGSG8ADicjLBaajhXiuQ@mail.gmail.com>

In a version uploaded by coderman, which someone else posted as a
torrent to the Pirate Bay. ATM, I'm not 100% clear whether he made it
into a torrent or not.

*Juan* juan.g71 at gmail.com
<juan.g71%40gmail.com?Subject=Re%3A%20%5Bcryptome%5D%20Re%3A%20%5Bcryptome%5D&In-Reply-To=%3C561971e5.e31f8c0a.f0dba.fffff987%40mx.google.com%3E>

>
> *Sat Oct 10 16:21:14 EDT 2015*On Sat, 10 Oct 2015 05:03:13 -0400
> Michael Best <themikebest at gmail.com> wrote:
> >* But what's terribly wrong is that I reported
> *>* it - *not* that John leaked it or lied it about it when he kept
> *>* denying it or anything else. [/sarcasm]
> *
> 	Yes, you getting blamed is  pretty ridiculous. The stuff was
> 	also *published* in a *public* torrent by coderman??
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From themikebest at gmail.com  Sat Oct 10 13:32:55 2015
From: themikebest at gmail.com (Michael Best)
Date: Sat, 10 Oct 2015 16:32:55 -0400
Subject: Why cryptome sold web logs to their paying customers?
Message-ID: <CANFTA09SE-Q4uy1tgwZZdROrtXq2i3DUjSG1bubf1nFBZfnfMw@mail.gmail.com>

>
> I say Best's name's appearance in DailyDot or
> any other media constitutes an ongoing for-profit commercial motivation
> as redistributor.


HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA.
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From themikebest at gmail.com  Sat Oct 10 13:35:00 2015
From: themikebest at gmail.com (Michael Best)
Date: Sat, 10 Oct 2015 16:35:00 -0400
Subject: Why cryptome sold web logs to their paying customers?
In-Reply-To: <56197616.2020501@riseup.net>
References: <CANFTA09SE-Q4uy1tgwZZdROrtXq2i3DUjSG1bubf1nFBZfnfMw@mail.gmail.com>
 <56197616.2020501@riseup.net>
Message-ID: <7628BF0B-D97A-469F-A77E-7263DB55DF9B@gmail.com>

Nope, laughing at someone who has no idea how little a media mention is worth in terms of money.

Sent from my iPhone

> On Oct 10, 2015, at 16:33, Razer <Rayzer at riseup.net> wrote:
> 
> Nervous laugh...
> 
>> On 10/10/2015 01:32 PM, Michael Best wrote:
>>> I say Best's name's appearance in DailyDot or
>>> any other media constitutes an ongoing for-profit commercial motivation
>>> as redistributor.
>> 
>> HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA. 
> 
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From themikebest at gmail.com  Sat Oct 10 13:46:07 2015
From: themikebest at gmail.com (Michael Best)
Date: Sat, 10 Oct 2015 16:46:07 -0400
Subject: Why cryptome sold web logs to their paying customers?
In-Reply-To: <5619779B.6010602@riseup.net>
References: <CANFTA09SE-Q4uy1tgwZZdROrtXq2i3DUjSG1bubf1nFBZfnfMw@mail.gmail.com>
 <56197616.2020501@riseup.net>
 <7628BF0B-D97A-469F-A77E-7263DB55DF9B@gmail.com>
 <5619779B.6010602@riseup.net>
Message-ID: <57AAD486-161E-46FA-B270-9C70756C61FA@gmail.com>

"Any money" is still more than I'll make off this. My only compensation is a headache from ridiculous accusations. 

Any chance you hold this same standard to Snowden and consider his press coverage as 
"an ongoing for-profit commercial motivation as redistributor" for the NSA docs?

Sent from my iPhone

> On Oct 10, 2015, at 16:39, Razer <Rayzer at riseup.net> wrote:
> 
> 
> 
>> On 10/10/2015 01:35 PM, Michael Best wrote:
>> Nope, laughing at someone who has no idea how little a media mention is worth in terms of money.
>> 
>> Sent from my iPhone
> 
> Yes I do and it depends on how much money you consider 'money'... For some, paying the rent is enough. Ask any artist or musician.
> 
> RR
> 
> 
>> 
>> On Oct 10, 2015, at 16:33, Razer <Rayzer at riseup.net> wrote:
>> 
>>> Nervous laugh...
>>> 
>>>> On 10/10/2015 01:32 PM, Michael Best wrote:
>>>>> I say Best's name's appearance in                 DailyDot or
>>>>> any other media constitutes an ongoing for-profit commercial motivation
>>>>> as redistributor.
>>>> 
>>>> HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA.
> 
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From guninski at guninski.com  Sat Oct 10 06:52:31 2015
From: guninski at guninski.com (Georgi Guninski)
Date: Sat, 10 Oct 2015 16:52:31 +0300
Subject: [cryptome] Re: NatSecGeek
In-Reply-To: <CANFTA09n99=-pqgt-VDf6V5BFOk7EWGdyktaiKvJpaC4JL98cw@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CANFTA0-qPf1VhateDGgbWRuxTrua4H7fqVXJVGsg+Upx-WwfGw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAJVRA1Tujm68F6cg_o_JjjHtSC9Wxd86iEGSSeCxYW2=8xkyBQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <CANFTA0-hj_v0ezi-1qvr8X3ELmCTpzyUyTnADe-2QKQO441vKA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAGRDzQV3ps1jFwA9H2ZDL4RnMeZR7cj44Fo+U34YESonVVs-xw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CANFTA09n99=-pqgt-VDf6V5BFOk7EWGdyktaiKvJpaC4JL98cw@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <20151010135231.GD2694@sivokote.iziade.m$>

Are you this twatter luser:

NatSecGeek

https://twitter.com/NatSecGeek

Suggested by:
http://www.dailydot.com/politics/cryptome-ip-leak-john-young-michael-best/

In case of positive answer, what does "Nat" mean?




From mirimir at riseup.net  Sat Oct 10 16:05:54 2015
From: mirimir at riseup.net (Mirimir)
Date: Sat, 10 Oct 2015 17:05:54 -0600
Subject: Why cryptome sold web logs to their paying customers?
In-Reply-To: <20151010185116.9E349C00019@frontend1.nyi.internal>
References: <20151010065326.GA2694@sivokote.iziade.m$>
 <5619468B.2050103@riseup.net>
 <20151010185116.9E349C00019@frontend1.nyi.internal>
Message-ID: <561999D2.80704@riseup.net>

On 10/10/2015 12:51 PM, Shelley wrote:
> On October 10, 2015 10:16:55 AM Razer <Rayzer at riseup.net> wrote:
> 
>> From the article:
>>
>> > "He discovered the files when he uploaded the contents of the sticks
>> > to the Internet Archive..."
>>
>> Where the fuck does Michael Best, "researcher", get off publishing
>> material THAT IS NOT HIS WORKS OR PLAINLY PUBLIC DOMAIN to IA?
>>
>> This is an example of the kind of material IA expects to see:
>>
>> https://archive.org/details/CabaleNewsServices
>>
>> With permission of the creator... NOT server logs he just happens to
>> have lying around.
>>
>> RR

Well, JYA apparently did send them to him :) Apparently by accident.

> The Cryptome archives *are* publicly accessible.  John limits bots and
> leechers to a certain number of files per day (as is his right, he is
> paying for the bandwidth), approx 100 iirc, but anyone who can use
> search strings can find anything on the site.

Are you arguing that users could have found those logs?

I almost can't imagine that. Logs are normally in /var/log/ somewhere,
and I can't imagine making them searchable. And indeed, I can't imagine
how Cryptome archives would have included anything from /var/log/, even
after system restore from backups.

> In the past, John has given his blessing to uploading the Cryptome
> archives to the torrents.  The files number close to 100K: I would not
> expect someone to inspect each document and folder of a public archive
> before uploading it, but Mike Best took the extra step to contact JY
> when he saw the log files and asked if those were part of the public
> archive or if they'd been included by mistake.  If it had been resolved
> at that time, the log files would not have been published and we would
> not be having this particular discussion.

If Mike had uploaded them without full inspection, no problem. But, as I
understand the narrative, he knowingly uploaded them. Yes, he asked JYA
about it first. And yes, he posted to this list too. But in the end,
after getting no help, he went ahead and uploaded them.

And that, in my opinion, was unwarranted.

> We can see from the hash on coderman's torrent from 2014 that those same
> log files were indeed included on the USB drives sent out by Cryptome
> and in the archives John uploaded a few months ago for us to seed on
> torrents.  (Which, incidentally, I'd planned on seeding as well, until
> my seeder box bit the dust and I have yet to replace it. I can tell you
> I would *not* have parsed 98,000 files before seeding the torrent.)

That is on JYA's tab, for sure ;)

> I haven't yet stated my personal opinion on this because I have wanted
> this to be about the slide in question.  I've been taken aback by the
> attacks on the researcher and I am worried that it's going to scare off
> the next person with important info to share.  That's a lose/lose
> situation.

As much as I hate waiting on the team reviewing Snowden's cache, I
generally agree on the importance of redaction to protect innocents.
Wikileaks redacts too. That's the lesson here, in my opinion.

> There is no clear answer here.  Yes, we are all responsible for our own
> opsec.  Absolutely. If we access the clearnet without encryption we are
> leaving digital DNA everywhere and we get to face the consequences. 
> This incident is a good reminder of this fact.

True. We're all responsible for our own OPSEC.

> Should access logs be kept for that long?  Absolutely not.  From what I
> have read in the email exchange that was posted, the log files were
> included in a NetSol total restore.  My guess is that John/Cryptome did
> not intentionally keep these files, and did not realize these files were
> included in the archive.

But that's the thing. Logs should have been in /var/log/. And how would
the "NetSol total restore" have changed that?

> When I do incremental backups or updates on my own systems, I don't
> usually go back and check the integrity of files I've already archived
> in my closed system.  I can see where this could be an honest mistake
> that has gotten blown way out of proportion.  It's a good lesson to be
> more aware of these types of glitches.

I still don't get how logs would have ended up in archives. Maybe JYA
prepared a special set of archives for a collaborator. Maybe for someone
helping him to understand what had happened. And then maybe he forgot
about doing that. Hard to say.

> Can we collectively agree that it's not an ideal situation, but that we
> are all human and, as such, make mistakes - and just move on to the real
> issue of the veracity/provenance of the slide attributed to the GCHQ,
> which purportedly shows the (illegal) interception of the data of
> Cryptome visitors?

I don't quite get what this is such a big deal. I've always assumed that
the Five Eyes etc intercept everything that they can. But there are so
many possible sources. Maybe GCHQ got the data from JYA's ISP. Or maybe
from their ISP. Or maybe from Cryptome archives. Or maybe from a bunch
of sources. Am I missing something here?

> That's the real issue here, and it *does* matter.  I implore us all to
> let the noise die down and get to the matter at hand.
> 
> Yes, with UKUSA / five eyes, GCHQ likely gets access to this type of
> data from the NSA just for the asking.  That, too, is not the point in
> this instance.

So what is the point?

> /rant
> 
> -Shelley
> 
> 
>>
>>
>>
>> On 10/09/2015 11:53 PM, Georgi Guninski wrote:
>> > The main question is:
>> >
>> > 1. Why cryptome sold web logs to their paying customers?
>> >
>> > Related questions:
>> >
>> > 2. Did they do it on purpose?
>> > 3. Did LEAs already had the logs via sniffing (at that time
>> cryptome.org
>> > didn't have SSL AFAIK)?
>> > 4. Is it likely that the web server (and likely all internet connected
>> > machines of cryptome operators) was compromised?
>> >
>> > In other news JYA talks in nearly prose:
>> >
>> http://www.dailydot.com/politics/cryptome-ip-leak-john-young-michael-best/
>>
>> >
>>
>>
> 
> 
> 




From guninski at guninski.com  Sat Oct 10 07:09:04 2015
From: guninski at guninski.com (Georgi Guninski)
Date: Sat, 10 Oct 2015 17:09:04 +0300
Subject: [cryptome] Re: NatSecGeek
In-Reply-To: <CANFTA0_ar1V2csWrdKJGPote-n24cWvO9sfs7x+B_-jzkp8Qfw@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CANFTA0-qPf1VhateDGgbWRuxTrua4H7fqVXJVGsg+Upx-WwfGw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAJVRA1Tujm68F6cg_o_JjjHtSC9Wxd86iEGSSeCxYW2=8xkyBQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <CANFTA0-hj_v0ezi-1qvr8X3ELmCTpzyUyTnADe-2QKQO441vKA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAGRDzQV3ps1jFwA9H2ZDL4RnMeZR7cj44Fo+U34YESonVVs-xw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CANFTA09n99=-pqgt-VDf6V5BFOk7EWGdyktaiKvJpaC4JL98cw@mail.gmail.com>
 <20151010135231.GD2694@sivokote.iziade.m$>
 <CANFTA0_ar1V2csWrdKJGPote-n24cWvO9sfs7x+B_-jzkp8Qfw@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <20151010140904.GE2694@sivokote.iziade.m$>

On Sat, Oct 10, 2015 at 09:59:20AM -0400, Michael Best wrote:
> NatSecGeek=National Security Geek. Other than recent Cryptome stuff, it's
> mostly links to archives and datasets.
> 

I still fail to understand the answer to the first question.

In case of positive answer, please define "National".

"nations" bomb/nuke each other AFAICT.

> 
> I assume "luser" is internet speak for "wild and crazy guy"?
> http://www.nbc.com/saturday-night-live/video/the-festrunk-brothers/n8662 ;-)
> 
> On Sat, Oct 10, 2015 at 9:52 AM, Georgi Guninski <guninski at guninski.com>
> wrote:
> 
> > Are you this twatter luser:
> >
> > NatSecGeek
> >
> > https://twitter.com/NatSecGeek
> >
> > Suggested by:
> > http://www.dailydot.com/politics/cryptome-ip-leak-john-young-michael-best/
> >
> > In case of positive answer, what does "Nat" mean?
> >




From themikebest at gmail.com  Sat Oct 10 14:10:24 2015
From: themikebest at gmail.com (Michael Best)
Date: Sat, 10 Oct 2015 17:10:24 -0400
Subject: Why cryptome sold web logs to their paying customers?
In-Reply-To: <56197E65.8060201@riseup.net>
References: <CANFTA09SE-Q4uy1tgwZZdROrtXq2i3DUjSG1bubf1nFBZfnfMw@mail.gmail.com>
 <56197616.2020501@riseup.net>
 <7628BF0B-D97A-469F-A77E-7263DB55DF9B@gmail.com>
 <5619779B.6010602@riseup.net>
 <57AAD486-161E-46FA-B270-9C70756C61FA@gmail.com>
 <56197E65.8060201@riseup.net>
Message-ID: <CANFTA0_=EeJLTMgCZJHpw15z4nZfDr5_iu8zQEHnw7gaKzvf5A@mail.gmail.com>

To prove the GCHQ slide could've been fake, getting John to fix the leak
and stop calling me a liar. Same as I've said all along. How is that
implausible?

On Sat, Oct 10, 2015 at 5:08 PM, Razer <Rayzer at riseup.net> wrote:

> Got it. Totally altruistic motivation...
>
>
> On 10/10/2015 01:46 PM, Michael Best wrote:
>
> "Any money" is still more than I'll make off this. My only compensation is
> a headache from ridiculous accusations.
>
> Any chance you hold this same standard to Snowden and consider his press
> coverage as
> "an ongoing for-profit commercial motivation as redistributor" for the NSA
> docs?
>
> Sent from my iPhone
>
> On Oct 10, 2015, at 16:39, Razer <Rayzer at riseup.net> wrote:
>
>
>
> On 10/10/2015 01:35 PM, Michael Best wrote:
>
> Nope, laughing at someone who has no idea how little a media mention is
> worth in terms of money.
>
> Sent from my iPhone
>
>
> Yes I do and it depends on how much money you consider 'money'... For
> some, paying the rent is enough. Ask any artist or musician.
>
> RR
>
>
>
> On Oct 10, 2015, at 16:33, Razer < <Rayzer at riseup.net>Rayzer at riseup.net>
> wrote:
>
> Nervous laugh...
>
> On 10/10/2015 01:32 PM, Michael Best wrote:
>
> I say Best's name's appearance in DailyDot or
>> any other media constitutes an ongoing for-profit commercial motivation
>> as redistributor.
>
>
> HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA.
>
>
>
>
>
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From mirimir at riseup.net  Sat Oct 10 16:14:45 2015
From: mirimir at riseup.net (Mirimir)
Date: Sat, 10 Oct 2015 17:14:45 -0600
Subject: [cryptome] Re: [cryptome]
In-Reply-To: <4314758.UDpymEa7mP@lapuntu>
References: <CANFTA08aZwfZHF=wL8mV_8qhijK39RfALQ7HfoTOb+eVsHgYjQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <56187E67.5090905@riseup.net> <561943C4.4030400@riseup.net>
 <4314758.UDpymEa7mP@lapuntu>
Message-ID: <56199BE5.7010307@riseup.net>

On 10/10/2015 02:40 PM, rysiek wrote:
> Dnia sobota, 10 października 2015 09:58:44 Razer pisze:
>> On 10/09/2015 07:56 PM, Mirimir wrote:
>>> In my world, people don't publish stuff that puts their [friends,
>>> allies, fellow travelers, etc] at risk. Even to make a point.
>>
>> Seconding Grarpamp on this.
> 
> Are you saying John Young shouldn't have published the server logs in the 
> first place? Can't agree more!

I'm saying that nobody should have published Cryptome weblogs. But for
JYA, it was apparently carelessness. For Mike, it was apparently
recklessness. Maybe the effect was the same. And both are avoidable. But
they're not the same.




From guninski at guninski.com  Sat Oct 10 07:18:19 2015
From: guninski at guninski.com (Georgi Guninski)
Date: Sat, 10 Oct 2015 17:18:19 +0300
Subject: [cryptome] Re: NatSecGeek
In-Reply-To: <CANFTA09QXePNmaqoWW-XMD_fFusAq65EMewzkMsYUjnZoSeJhA@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CANFTA0-qPf1VhateDGgbWRuxTrua4H7fqVXJVGsg+Upx-WwfGw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAJVRA1Tujm68F6cg_o_JjjHtSC9Wxd86iEGSSeCxYW2=8xkyBQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <CANFTA0-hj_v0ezi-1qvr8X3ELmCTpzyUyTnADe-2QKQO441vKA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAGRDzQV3ps1jFwA9H2ZDL4RnMeZR7cj44Fo+U34YESonVVs-xw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CANFTA09n99=-pqgt-VDf6V5BFOk7EWGdyktaiKvJpaC4JL98cw@mail.gmail.com>
 <20151010135231.GD2694@sivokote.iziade.m$>
 <CANFTA0_ar1V2csWrdKJGPote-n24cWvO9sfs7x+B_-jzkp8Qfw@mail.gmail.com>
 <20151010140904.GE2694@sivokote.iziade.m$>
 <CANFTA09QXePNmaqoWW-XMD_fFusAq65EMewzkMsYUjnZoSeJhA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <20151010141819.GF2694@sivokote.iziade.m$>

On Sat, Oct 10, 2015 at 10:14:57AM -0400, Michael Best wrote:
> Here's the windup... and the pitch...
> It looks like it's gonna be an ad hominem!
> Best doesn't swing at it. Ball one.
>

In case you can't understand the question, are you this?:
https://twitter.com/NatSecGeek
According to:
http://www.dailydot.com/politics/cryptome-ip-leak-john-young-michael-best/




From juan.g71 at gmail.com  Sat Oct 10 13:21:14 2015
From: juan.g71 at gmail.com (Juan)
Date: Sat, 10 Oct 2015 17:21:14 -0300
Subject: [cryptome] Re: [cryptome]
In-Reply-To: <CANFTA0-hj_v0ezi-1qvr8X3ELmCTpzyUyTnADe-2QKQO441vKA@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CANFTA0-qPf1VhateDGgbWRuxTrua4H7fqVXJVGsg+Upx-WwfGw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAJVRA1Tujm68F6cg_o_JjjHtSC9Wxd86iEGSSeCxYW2=8xkyBQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <CANFTA0-hj_v0ezi-1qvr8X3ELmCTpzyUyTnADe-2QKQO441vKA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <561971e5.e31f8c0a.f0dba.fffff987@mx.google.com>

On Sat, 10 Oct 2015 05:03:13 -0400
Michael Best <themikebest at gmail.com> wrote:

> But what's terribly wrong is that I reported
> it - *not* that John leaked it or lied it about it when he kept
> denying it or anything else. [/sarcasm]


	Yes, you getting blamed is  pretty ridiculous. The stuff was
	also *published* in a *public* torrent by coderman?? 
	
	

J.

> 
>




From mirimir at riseup.net  Sat Oct 10 16:25:41 2015
From: mirimir at riseup.net (Mirimir)
Date: Sat, 10 Oct 2015 17:25:41 -0600
Subject: Why cryptome sold web logs to their paying customers?
In-Reply-To: <CANFTA09-0-jTfVZnm0QyW9ONCknDsDa+zqGPssBR1Puqe23=WQ@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CANFTA09-0-jTfVZnm0QyW9ONCknDsDa+zqGPssBR1Puqe23=WQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <56199E75.90405@riseup.net>

On 10/10/2015 05:10 PM, Michael Best wrote:
>>
>> If Mike had uploaded them without full inspection, no problem. But, as I
>> understand the narrative, he knowingly uploaded them.
> 
> 
> I found them after uploading them, as I and the Daily Dot article said.

OK, I forgot that :( So you get a pass too ;)

But then, why justify yourself, saying that you didn't get a straight
answer from JYA?

> He discovered the files when he uploaded the contents of the sticks to the
>> Internet Archive, Best told the Daily Dot in a Twitter message. “Scrolling
>> down through the list, I found about a hundred awstats log files listed in
>> a row,” he said, referring to Cryptome analytics data.

Does "when" mean "before" or "after"? But I take your clarification.

My point hasn't been to blame you, or JYA. But there is stuff to learn.

> On Sat, Oct 10, 2015 at 5:10 PM, Michael Best <themikebest at gmail.com> wrote:
> 
>> To prove the GCHQ slide could've been fake, getting John to fix the leak
>> and stop calling me a liar. Same as I've said all along. How is that
>> implausible?
>>
>> On Sat, Oct 10, 2015 at 5:08 PM, Razer <Rayzer at riseup.net> wrote:
>>
>>> Got it. Totally altruistic motivation...
>>>
>>>
>>> On 10/10/2015 01:46 PM, Michael Best wrote:
>>>
>>> "Any money" is still more than I'll make off this. My only compensation
>>> is a headache from ridiculous accusations.
>>>
>>> Any chance you hold this same standard to Snowden and consider his press
>>> coverage as
>>> "an ongoing for-profit commercial motivation as redistributor" for the
>>> NSA docs?
>>>
>>> Sent from my iPhone
>>>
>>> On Oct 10, 2015, at 16:39, Razer <Rayzer at riseup.net> wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> On 10/10/2015 01:35 PM, Michael Best wrote:
>>>
>>> Nope, laughing at someone who has no idea how little a media mention is
>>> worth in terms of money.
>>>
>>> Sent from my iPhone
>>>
>>>
>>> Yes I do and it depends on how much money you consider 'money'... For
>>> some, paying the rent is enough. Ask any artist or musician.
>>>
>>> RR
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> On Oct 10, 2015, at 16:33, Razer < <Rayzer at riseup.net>Rayzer at riseup.net>
>>> wrote:
>>>
>>> Nervous laugh...
>>>
>>> On 10/10/2015 01:32 PM, Michael Best wrote:
>>>
>>> I say Best's name's appearance in DailyDot or
>>>> any other media constitutes an ongoing for-profit commercial motivation
>>>> as redistributor.
>>>
>>>
>>> HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>
> 




From juan.g71 at gmail.com  Sat Oct 10 13:38:36 2015
From: juan.g71 at gmail.com (Juan)
Date: Sat, 10 Oct 2015 17:38:36 -0300
Subject: [cryptome] Re: NatSecGeek
In-Reply-To: <04208030-FF28-4110-9565-14F6E97A82C6@gmail.com>
References: <CANFTA0-qPf1VhateDGgbWRuxTrua4H7fqVXJVGsg+Upx-WwfGw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAJVRA1Tujm68F6cg_o_JjjHtSC9Wxd86iEGSSeCxYW2=8xkyBQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <CANFTA0-hj_v0ezi-1qvr8X3ELmCTpzyUyTnADe-2QKQO441vKA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAGRDzQV3ps1jFwA9H2ZDL4RnMeZR7cj44Fo+U34YESonVVs-xw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CANFTA09n99=-pqgt-VDf6V5BFOk7EWGdyktaiKvJpaC4JL98cw@mail.gmail.com>
 <20151010135231.GD2694@sivokote.iziade.m$>
 <CANFTA0_ar1V2csWrdKJGPote-n24cWvO9sfs7x+B_-jzkp8Qfw@mail.gmail.com>
 <20151010140904.GE2694@sivokote.iziade.m$>
 <CANFTA09QXePNmaqoWW-XMD_fFusAq65EMewzkMsYUjnZoSeJhA@mail.gmail.com>
 <20151010141819.GF2694@sivokote.iziade.m$>
 <CANFTA08+QbS0ri+UTfkhjSRgTZ-HJ-e76KEJbSdQU45bZBeCgQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <04208030-FF28-4110-9565-14F6E97A82C6@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <561975f7.92c38c0a.c7a5b.fffff889@mx.google.com>

On Sat, 10 Oct 2015 13:38:47 -0400
Michael Best <themikebest at gmail.com> wrote:

> 
> For me, "national security" is anything a nation needs to prosper and
> survive, including national medical care, education, ensuring a
> healthy job market and that there's infrastructure for everyone to
> get food, water, information, and from place to place. 

	
	I thought the reference to 'natsec' was derogative. Silly me.

	You think all those wonderful things for the 'nation' should be
	done by the government mafia? 
	

	

I
> generally don't talk about that part because I only understand it in
> the broadest terms, and the best I can do is try to listen to the
> experts in that field 

	ANd who are those experts...? 



> and people who are smarter than me. And then
> there's separating policy from politics...
> 
> I hope that helps clarify some. Sorry again for assuming that your
> question was insincere/attacking. 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone
>




From mirimir at riseup.net  Sat Oct 10 17:00:21 2015
From: mirimir at riseup.net (Mirimir)
Date: Sat, 10 Oct 2015 18:00:21 -0600
Subject: Why cryptome sold web logs to their paying customers?
In-Reply-To: <CANFTA09-0-jTfVZnm0QyW9ONCknDsDa+zqGPssBR1Puqe23=WQ@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CANFTA09-0-jTfVZnm0QyW9ONCknDsDa+zqGPssBR1Puqe23=WQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <5619A695.80502@riseup.net>

On 10/10/2015 05:10 PM, Michael Best wrote:
>>
>> If Mike had uploaded them without full inspection, no problem. But, as I
>> understand the narrative, he knowingly uploaded them.
> 
> 
> I found them after uploading them, as I and the Daily Dot article said.

Also, just to be clear, here's how I would have handled this. So I have
these Cryptome archives. And I upload them to the Internet Archive. And
then I notice that [what the fuck!] they include weblogs! And so I
contact the Internet Archive, and make sure that they don't propagate my
upload. Then I remove the weblogs from the Cryptome archives, and upload
them to the Internet Archive. Then I email JYA etc etc etc.

For whatever that's worth ;)

> He discovered the files when he uploaded the contents of the sticks to the
>> Internet Archive, Best told the Daily Dot in a Twitter message. “Scrolling
>> down through the list, I found about a hundred awstats log files listed in
>> a row,” he said, referring to Cryptome analytics data.
> 
> 
> 
> On Sat, Oct 10, 2015 at 5:10 PM, Michael Best <themikebest at gmail.com> wrote:
> 
>> To prove the GCHQ slide could've been fake, getting John to fix the leak
>> and stop calling me a liar. Same as I've said all along. How is that
>> implausible?
>>
>> On Sat, Oct 10, 2015 at 5:08 PM, Razer <Rayzer at riseup.net> wrote:
>>
>>> Got it. Totally altruistic motivation...
>>>
>>>
>>> On 10/10/2015 01:46 PM, Michael Best wrote:
>>>
>>> "Any money" is still more than I'll make off this. My only compensation
>>> is a headache from ridiculous accusations.
>>>
>>> Any chance you hold this same standard to Snowden and consider his press
>>> coverage as
>>> "an ongoing for-profit commercial motivation as redistributor" for the
>>> NSA docs?
>>>
>>> Sent from my iPhone
>>>
>>> On Oct 10, 2015, at 16:39, Razer <Rayzer at riseup.net> wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> On 10/10/2015 01:35 PM, Michael Best wrote:
>>>
>>> Nope, laughing at someone who has no idea how little a media mention is
>>> worth in terms of money.
>>>
>>> Sent from my iPhone
>>>
>>>
>>> Yes I do and it depends on how much money you consider 'money'... For
>>> some, paying the rent is enough. Ask any artist or musician.
>>>
>>> RR
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> On Oct 10, 2015, at 16:33, Razer < <Rayzer at riseup.net>Rayzer at riseup.net>
>>> wrote:
>>>
>>> Nervous laugh...
>>>
>>> On 10/10/2015 01:32 PM, Michael Best wrote:
>>>
>>> I say Best's name's appearance in DailyDot or
>>>> any other media constitutes an ongoing for-profit commercial motivation
>>>> as redistributor.
>>>
>>>
>>> HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>
> 




From juan.g71 at gmail.com  Sat Oct 10 14:02:25 2015
From: juan.g71 at gmail.com (Juan)
Date: Sat, 10 Oct 2015 18:02:25 -0300
Subject: Why not P2P yet, Iceland, and "legal shit" [and: Cryptome's
 Diapers Leaking :-]
In-Reply-To: <CAGRDzQXorsVOgNjZe=KUVwNMY6rwfQKb2F1yTErVuyPyeO3MWQ@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAD2Ti2_8B53M7YVnWsYxRC1KP3r++F8qBiVQBnDOvXcppuVOjw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAGRDzQUHc=AmuvrB91JC4-tZfFjD1HrVAYqT=5E8=3kafL6uYg@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAGRDzQXorsVOgNjZe=KUVwNMY6rwfQKb2F1yTErVuyPyeO3MWQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <56197b8c.ceeb8c0a.9ce72.fffff854@mx.google.com>

On Sat, 10 Oct 2015 20:18:59 +0300
Cari Machet <carimachet at gmail.com> wrote:

> IPFS http://t.co/izE9l9VWqu


	https://freenetproject.org/




From juan.g71 at gmail.com  Sat Oct 10 14:30:15 2015
From: juan.g71 at gmail.com (Juan)
Date: Sat, 10 Oct 2015 18:30:15 -0300
Subject: Why cryptome sold web logs to their paying customers?
In-Reply-To: <CANFTA0_=EeJLTMgCZJHpw15z4nZfDr5_iu8zQEHnw7gaKzvf5A@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CANFTA09SE-Q4uy1tgwZZdROrtXq2i3DUjSG1bubf1nFBZfnfMw@mail.gmail.com>
 <56197616.2020501@riseup.net>
 <7628BF0B-D97A-469F-A77E-7263DB55DF9B@gmail.com>
 <5619779B.6010602@riseup.net>
 <57AAD486-161E-46FA-B270-9C70756C61FA@gmail.com>
 <56197E65.8060201@riseup.net>
 <CANFTA0_=EeJLTMgCZJHpw15z4nZfDr5_iu8zQEHnw7gaKzvf5A@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <56198212.caef8c0a.b0b95.ffffff5a@mx.google.com>

On Sat, 10 Oct 2015 17:10:24 -0400
Michael Best <themikebest at gmail.com> wrote:

> To prove the GCHQ slide could've been fake,


	Or maybe the slide was made using those very same logs by
	some 'legitimate' government critter. 

	I still don't get who would make suck a fake and why. 






 getting John to fix the
> leak and stop calling me a liar. Same as I've said all along. How is
> that implausible?
> 
>




From juan.g71 at gmail.com  Sat Oct 10 14:31:29 2015
From: juan.g71 at gmail.com (Juan)
Date: Sat, 10 Oct 2015 18:31:29 -0300
Subject: Why cryptome sold web logs to their paying customers?
In-Reply-To: <CANFTA0_=EeJLTMgCZJHpw15z4nZfDr5_iu8zQEHnw7gaKzvf5A@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CANFTA09SE-Q4uy1tgwZZdROrtXq2i3DUjSG1bubf1nFBZfnfMw@mail.gmail.com>
 <56197616.2020501@riseup.net>
 <7628BF0B-D97A-469F-A77E-7263DB55DF9B@gmail.com>
 <5619779B.6010602@riseup.net>
 <57AAD486-161E-46FA-B270-9C70756C61FA@gmail.com>
 <56197E65.8060201@riseup.net>
 <CANFTA0_=EeJLTMgCZJHpw15z4nZfDr5_iu8zQEHnw7gaKzvf5A@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <5619825d.361f8c0a.691ce.fffffe96@mx.google.com>

>I still don't get who would make suck a fake and why. 

	such*






From themikebest at gmail.com  Sat Oct 10 15:46:13 2015
From: themikebest at gmail.com (Michael Best)
Date: Sat, 10 Oct 2015 18:46:13 -0400
Subject: WHY make a fake GCHQ slide?
Message-ID: <CANFTA0-DN1XRUNc=xhEw3X2r=6MsOn30f-uobhkq98zUJPSqkA@mail.gmail.com>

Here's my preliminary list of potential reasons for faking a GCHQ
slide. Not meant to be comprehensive, and not every possibility is
highly likely. Some are included only for completeness, but I'm sure
there are possibilities I missed.

There have been a few incidents already where the slides have been
challenged or at least partially debunked. The German prosecutor found
a lack of evidence that the NSA was illegally monitoring their
government and concluded that the alleged NSA order was a fake.
Snowden has also accused The Independent of attributing slides to him
that he never gave to them.

The why depends on the who. Candidates include:


   - GCHQ
   - Snowden (included for completeness, but least likely. Why fake
this particular slide among many apparently legitimate ones?)
   - Russian chekist agencies
   - Chinese intelligence agencies
   - The Intercept
   - Intel service X
   -

If the GCHQ, then there are a few possible reasons:

   1. Part of a proposal/demo
   2. Disinfo to discourage visitors from going to Cryptome
   3. Disinfo to create paranoia
   4. Disinfo to discredit other slides (Snowden suggests something
like that here http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2013/aug/23/uk-government-independent-military-base
)
   5. Disinfo to convince a FIS (foreign intel service) that their
capabilities are better/more complete than they are (or were better
than they were at the time)

If Snowden:

   1. ???
   2. Makes no sense as an isolated incident, little evidence to the contrary
   3. Would not necessarily recognize a fake slide, since he didn't
examine all of the ones he passed on

If Russian disinfo:

   1. Discredit the GCHQ
   2. Discredit western governments and undermine their intelligence agencies
   3. Inflate the importance of Cryptome prior to attempting to use
them to release disinfo

If Chinese disinfo:

   1. Smear British cyber operations as part of their ongoing cyberwar
with the west and related cognitive warfare
   2. Discredit the GCHQ
   3. Discredit western governments and undermine their intelligence agencies
   4. Inflate the importance of Cryptome prior to attempting to use
them to release disinfo

If The Intercept:

   1. Fame
   2. Money from being paid to publish a fake by any interested party
   3. Financial compensation from media attention as suggested by
Razer/Rayzer at riseup.net

If Intel service x:

   1. Any of the above

*Juan* juan.g71 at gmail.com
>
> <juan.g71%40gmail.com?Subject=Re%3A%20Why%20cryptome%20sold%20web%20logs%20to%20their%20paying%20customers%3F&In-Reply-To=%3C5619825d.361f8c0a.691ce.fffffe96%40mx.google.com%3E>
> *Sat Oct 10 17:31:29 EDT 2015*>*I still don't get who would make such a
> fake and why. *
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From themikebest at gmail.com  Sat Oct 10 16:10:12 2015
From: themikebest at gmail.com (Michael Best)
Date: Sat, 10 Oct 2015 19:10:12 -0400
Subject: Why cryptome sold web logs to their paying customers?
Message-ID: <CANFTA09-0-jTfVZnm0QyW9ONCknDsDa+zqGPssBR1Puqe23=WQ@mail.gmail.com>

>
> If Mike had uploaded them without full inspection, no problem. But, as I
> understand the narrative, he knowingly uploaded them.


I found them after uploading them, as I and the Daily Dot article said.

He discovered the files when he uploaded the contents of the sticks to the
> Internet Archive, Best told the Daily Dot in a Twitter message. “Scrolling
> down through the list, I found about a hundred awstats log files listed in
> a row,” he said, referring to Cryptome analytics data.



On Sat, Oct 10, 2015 at 5:10 PM, Michael Best <themikebest at gmail.com> wrote:

> To prove the GCHQ slide could've been fake, getting John to fix the leak
> and stop calling me a liar. Same as I've said all along. How is that
> implausible?
>
> On Sat, Oct 10, 2015 at 5:08 PM, Razer <Rayzer at riseup.net> wrote:
>
>> Got it. Totally altruistic motivation...
>>
>>
>> On 10/10/2015 01:46 PM, Michael Best wrote:
>>
>> "Any money" is still more than I'll make off this. My only compensation
>> is a headache from ridiculous accusations.
>>
>> Any chance you hold this same standard to Snowden and consider his press
>> coverage as
>> "an ongoing for-profit commercial motivation as redistributor" for the
>> NSA docs?
>>
>> Sent from my iPhone
>>
>> On Oct 10, 2015, at 16:39, Razer <Rayzer at riseup.net> wrote:
>>
>>
>>
>> On 10/10/2015 01:35 PM, Michael Best wrote:
>>
>> Nope, laughing at someone who has no idea how little a media mention is
>> worth in terms of money.
>>
>> Sent from my iPhone
>>
>>
>> Yes I do and it depends on how much money you consider 'money'... For
>> some, paying the rent is enough. Ask any artist or musician.
>>
>> RR
>>
>>
>>
>> On Oct 10, 2015, at 16:33, Razer < <Rayzer at riseup.net>Rayzer at riseup.net>
>> wrote:
>>
>> Nervous laugh...
>>
>> On 10/10/2015 01:32 PM, Michael Best wrote:
>>
>> I say Best's name's appearance in DailyDot or
>>> any other media constitutes an ongoing for-profit commercial motivation
>>> as redistributor.
>>
>>
>> HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>
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From carimachet at gmail.com  Sat Oct 10 09:29:07 2015
From: carimachet at gmail.com (Cari Machet)
Date: Sat, 10 Oct 2015 19:29:07 +0300
Subject: [cryptome] Cryptome has been leaking its user logs for over a year
In-Reply-To: <20151010122745.GC2694@sivokote.iziade.m$>
References: <CANFTA0-4ZDCq-QMAj=KeT7i00OUvBWCZ2VM32HHsnzMiUhkMeg@mail.gmail.com>
 <56181688.9020802@riseup.net>
 <CAKtE3zeALjs94eEHOTyF=xhZRSmAzhbLt8jdPSfYcnaVUYNphQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <3834290.gv7rWBnLsF@lapuntu>
 <20151010122745.GC2694@sivokote.iziade.m$>
Message-ID: <CAGRDzQUyOkMzvi84Dpux8KuPvHgUNrEgpjE2S5CACA9foydhug@mail.gmail.com>

Yes but fuck glenn greenwald ... its a snowden leak and it was just proof
we already knew that shit
On Oct 10, 2015 3:30 PM, "Georgi Guninski" <guninski at guninski.com> wrote:

> On Sat, Oct 10, 2015 at 01:13:06PM +0200, rysiek wrote:
> > Dnia piątek, 9 października 2015 15:42:51 Travis Biehn pisze:
> > > 2) I hope IA and other parties don't know I was drooling over TS dox.
> > > Use an anonymizing platform. If you're relying on the operator to 'not
> keep
> > > logs' *you're doing it wrong*, not JY.
> >
> > This is classic "blaming the victim" move.
> >
>
> And who is the victim?
>
>
> > Should I take care of my own opsec? By all means.
> > Is it okay to publish/sell logs by the service provider? No, no it
> > isn't.
>
> Selling logs to the customers you logged and who (if they notice) likely
> will do the best to discredit you?
>
>
> https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Joint_Threat_Research_Intelligence_Group&oldid=670966374
>
> Joint Threat Research Intelligence Group (JTRIG)
>
> ---
> In June 2015, NSA files published by Glenn Greenwald revealed new
> details about JTRIG's work at covertly manipulating online
> communities.[6]
> ---
>
>
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From carimachet at gmail.com  Sat Oct 10 10:07:05 2015
From: carimachet at gmail.com (Cari Machet)
Date: Sat, 10 Oct 2015 20:07:05 +0300
Subject: Why not P2P yet, Iceland, and "legal shit" [and: Cryptome's
 Diapers Leaking :-]
In-Reply-To: <CAD2Ti2_8B53M7YVnWsYxRC1KP3r++F8qBiVQBnDOvXcppuVOjw@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAD2Ti2_8B53M7YVnWsYxRC1KP3r++F8qBiVQBnDOvXcppuVOjw@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAGRDzQUHc=AmuvrB91JC4-tZfFjD1HrVAYqT=5E8=3kafL6uYg@mail.gmail.com>

There is no model whatsoever besides tor ????

Aaaargh too monolithic for me and also then why i have secure mail in
fucking icelands

Structures like law or tech dont live in their own bubbles

I will send you some shit i found yesterday on tech but maybe you can find
a raw new space laws can be implemented a new or laws can be fucked with
legality can be fucked with
On Oct 10, 2015 7:23 AM, "grarpamp" <grarpamp at gmail.com> wrote:

> On Fri, Oct 9, 2015 at 2:57 AM, Cari Machet <carimachet at gmail.com> wrote:
> > Agreed but we do still have pirate bay
>
> TPB is a long since sold and sold out third party joke of what it once was.
> Moreover, Iceland, Sweden, whatever for TPB itself... it never protected
> users, because torrenting protocol the clearnet cannot protect users.
> For that, torrenters MUST rehome themselves exclusively to the darknets.
> I2P and Phantom and even Tor and so forth would work reasonably well
> for that against corporate MAFIAA attacks. But torrenters are stupid.
> And it is the role of cpunks to provide designs for such capable darknets.
>
> > and the drug pushing parasites
>
> Yes, on I2P and Tor, lol. But note, save maybe openbazaar P2P alikes,
> people are vain, so real P2P is not popular for them to do as it removes
> their fame and control via their would be central sevices. This is why real
> P2P hasn't taken off. Imagine a truly P2P Uber / Lyft... it doesn't exist
> because everyone who thinks it up wants a cut, at which point they
> are middlemen and not true [anon] P2P.
>
> > Icelandic servers have a base of security because of the structure of law
>
> Blah blah blah. How many and which treaties and partnerships, both front
> and backdoor and silent, are Iceland's Government and country party to?
> How strong is your adversary? Oh, now you have a problem once
> you strip off the Iceland publicity bullshit. If Iceland were something
> special you'd see them openly advertising forbidden hosting, not
> necessarily
> for themselves, but for foreigners. And if it were a free country
> internally,
> they'd advertise it for themselves. Silly laws, and mores. Ain't no bases
> there.
>
> > Legal shit has ramifications
>
> Real independant legal shit is seriously fucking hard to achieve.
>
> >> > > John's replies appear weird to me.
> >> > i find that understanding of John's replies is best achieved through a
> >> > structured series of mind altering substances ingested, inhaled, or
>
> Cryptome is a unique character worthy of respect and dialogue
> should you have the chance. An honor it would be in fact. While
> the technicals of cryptome.org and its parentage could perhaps
> make use of review. On the other hand, they are uniquely Cryptome.
>
> >>         https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8r-e2NDSTuE
>
> Lol.
>
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From carimachet at gmail.com  Sat Oct 10 10:18:59 2015
From: carimachet at gmail.com (Cari Machet)
Date: Sat, 10 Oct 2015 20:18:59 +0300
Subject: Why not P2P yet, Iceland, and "legal shit" [and: Cryptome's
 Diapers Leaking :-]
In-Reply-To: <CAGRDzQUHc=AmuvrB91JC4-tZfFjD1HrVAYqT=5E8=3kafL6uYg@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAD2Ti2_8B53M7YVnWsYxRC1KP3r++F8qBiVQBnDOvXcppuVOjw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAGRDzQUHc=AmuvrB91JC4-tZfFjD1HrVAYqT=5E8=3kafL6uYg@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAGRDzQXorsVOgNjZe=KUVwNMY6rwfQKb2F1yTErVuyPyeO3MWQ@mail.gmail.com>

IPFS http://t.co/izE9l9VWqu
On Oct 10, 2015 8:07 PM, "Cari Machet" <carimachet at gmail.com> wrote:

> There is no model whatsoever besides tor ????
>
> Aaaargh too monolithic for me and also then why i have secure mail in
> fucking icelands
>
> Structures like law or tech dont live in their own bubbles
>
> I will send you some shit i found yesterday on tech but maybe you can find
> a raw new space laws can be implemented a new or laws can be fucked with
> legality can be fucked with
> On Oct 10, 2015 7:23 AM, "grarpamp" <grarpamp at gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> On Fri, Oct 9, 2015 at 2:57 AM, Cari Machet <carimachet at gmail.com> wrote:
>> > Agreed but we do still have pirate bay
>>
>> TPB is a long since sold and sold out third party joke of what it once
>> was.
>> Moreover, Iceland, Sweden, whatever for TPB itself... it never protected
>> users, because torrenting protocol the clearnet cannot protect users.
>> For that, torrenters MUST rehome themselves exclusively to the darknets.
>> I2P and Phantom and even Tor and so forth would work reasonably well
>> for that against corporate MAFIAA attacks. But torrenters are stupid.
>> And it is the role of cpunks to provide designs for such capable darknets.
>>
>> > and the drug pushing parasites
>>
>> Yes, on I2P and Tor, lol. But note, save maybe openbazaar P2P alikes,
>> people are vain, so real P2P is not popular for them to do as it removes
>> their fame and control via their would be central sevices. This is why
>> real
>> P2P hasn't taken off. Imagine a truly P2P Uber / Lyft... it doesn't exist
>> because everyone who thinks it up wants a cut, at which point they
>> are middlemen and not true [anon] P2P.
>>
>> > Icelandic servers have a base of security because of the structure of
>> law
>>
>> Blah blah blah. How many and which treaties and partnerships, both front
>> and backdoor and silent, are Iceland's Government and country party to?
>> How strong is your adversary? Oh, now you have a problem once
>> you strip off the Iceland publicity bullshit. If Iceland were something
>> special you'd see them openly advertising forbidden hosting, not
>> necessarily
>> for themselves, but for foreigners. And if it were a free country
>> internally,
>> they'd advertise it for themselves. Silly laws, and mores. Ain't no bases
>> there.
>>
>> > Legal shit has ramifications
>>
>> Real independant legal shit is seriously fucking hard to achieve.
>>
>> >> > > John's replies appear weird to me.
>> >> > i find that understanding of John's replies is best achieved through
>> a
>> >> > structured series of mind altering substances ingested, inhaled, or
>>
>> Cryptome is a unique character worthy of respect and dialogue
>> should you have the chance. An honor it would be in fact. While
>> the technicals of cryptome.org and its parentage could perhaps
>> make use of review. On the other hand, they are uniquely Cryptome.
>>
>> >>         https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8r-e2NDSTuE
>>
>> Lol.
>>
>
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From carimachet at gmail.com  Sat Oct 10 10:42:58 2015
From: carimachet at gmail.com (Cari Machet)
Date: Sat, 10 Oct 2015 20:42:58 +0300
Subject: The GCHQ Cryptome slide could be a mockup/disinfo
In-Reply-To: <CAD2Ti2-rLV5ugVse3ff-_0g+cvYrNZRSP1woxo7G26NrQTqorQ@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CANFTA0_rUNWVZ8jN=+=vPbQ2f+iTrRx6x1uZB+h61pKO56tXuw@mail.gmail.com>
 <20151008153729.GE2590@sivokote.iziade.m$>
 <20151008165339.CCFE9C0001A@frontend1.nyi.internal>
 <20151008105824.badf12c7552870001624480d@virtadpt.net>
 <5617BA73.7050804@pilobilus.net>
 <CAD2Ti2-rLV5ugVse3ff-_0g+cvYrNZRSP1woxo7G26NrQTqorQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAGRDzQUH6BK_-JLSeQAVvaaTymPfkCx9+H3QP5=+Lks6N7ZQUQ@mail.gmail.com>

Ok i read it all see no fucking ask of this community for help on the matter

I am not interested in purity coffins for cryptome or anyone but i am
interested in respect of community as others have stated here

There are issues then there are deeper concerns re structural mindset ...
base shit people love to ignore so they can fuck with shit on accounta

Coming to the list with a question is not what occured here - coming to the
list with an ask is not what occured

This space is not cut throat dont pretend
On Oct 10, 2015 8:50 AM, "grarpamp" <grarpamp at gmail.com> wrote:

> On Fri, Oct 9, 2015 at 9:00 AM, Steve Kinney <admin at pilobilus.net> wrote:
> >  That amounts to less than an ant fart in a tornado, in context?
>
> I am having difficulty quantifying this ratio.
> Can you supply some peer reviewed research data?
> Preferably as compared to "needle in a haystack"
> or "flatter than Kansas".
>
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From carimachet at gmail.com  Sat Oct 10 11:00:00 2015
From: carimachet at gmail.com (Cari Machet)
Date: Sat, 10 Oct 2015 21:00:00 +0300
Subject: [cryptome] Re: [cryptome]
In-Reply-To: <561943C4.4030400@riseup.net>
References: <CANFTA08aZwfZHF=wL8mV_8qhijK39RfALQ7HfoTOb+eVsHgYjQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <56187E67.5090905@riseup.net> <561943C4.4030400@riseup.net>
Message-ID: <CAGRDzQWRPraNrJFuHeuekTxDAJ6K6N0JK4o+owjxX101_SamZg@mail.gmail.com>

Thats fucking mirimir seconding grarpamp i fourth that shit so theres
fucked up then theres fucked-fucked up

Not ok - then you dont come to the list with an ask but say you did ?

Everything leaks but dont be the one leaking it - the determinant leaker
axiom
On Oct 10, 2015 8:00 PM, "Razer" <Rayzer at riseup.net> wrote:

>
>
> On 10/09/2015 07:56 PM, Mirimir wrote:
> > In my world, people don't publish stuff that puts their [friends,
> > allies, fellow travelers, etc] at risk. Even to make a point.
>
> Seconding Grarpamp on this.
>
>
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From carimachet at gmail.com  Sat Oct 10 11:02:02 2015
From: carimachet at gmail.com (Cari Machet)
Date: Sat, 10 Oct 2015 21:02:02 +0300
Subject: [cryptome] Re: [cryptome]
In-Reply-To: <CAGRDzQWRPraNrJFuHeuekTxDAJ6K6N0JK4o+owjxX101_SamZg@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CANFTA08aZwfZHF=wL8mV_8qhijK39RfALQ7HfoTOb+eVsHgYjQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <56187E67.5090905@riseup.net> <561943C4.4030400@riseup.net>
 <CAGRDzQWRPraNrJFuHeuekTxDAJ6K6N0JK4o+owjxX101_SamZg@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAGRDzQUvMz9nS4DAs0wwZeRGtTtF37yKydqc3pgvzuhKTsAEpg@mail.gmail.com>

No no grarpamp seconding mirimir ... fucking right brain power over ....
On Oct 10, 2015 11:24 PM, carimachet at gmail.com wrote:

> Thats fucking mirimir seconding grarpamp i fourth that shit so theres
> fucked up then theres fucked-fucked up
>
> Not ok - then you dont come to the list with an ask but say you did ?
>
> Everything leaks but dont be the one leaking it - the determinant leaker
> axiom
> On Oct 10, 2015 8:00 PM, "Razer" <Rayzer at riseup.net> wrote:
>
>>
>>
>> On 10/09/2015 07:56 PM, Mirimir wrote:
>> > In my world, people don't publish stuff that puts their [friends,
>> > allies, fellow travelers, etc] at risk. Even to make a point.
>>
>> Seconding Grarpamp on this.
>>
>>
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From rysiek at hackerspace.pl  Sat Oct 10 13:40:06 2015
From: rysiek at hackerspace.pl (rysiek)
Date: Sat, 10 Oct 2015 22:40:06 +0200
Subject: [cryptome] Re: [cryptome]
In-Reply-To: <561943C4.4030400@riseup.net>
References: <CANFTA08aZwfZHF=wL8mV_8qhijK39RfALQ7HfoTOb+eVsHgYjQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <56187E67.5090905@riseup.net> <561943C4.4030400@riseup.net>
Message-ID: <4314758.UDpymEa7mP@lapuntu>

Dnia sobota, 10 października 2015 09:58:44 Razer pisze:
> On 10/09/2015 07:56 PM, Mirimir wrote:
> > In my world, people don't publish stuff that puts their [friends,
> > allies, fellow travelers, etc] at risk. Even to make a point.
> 
> Seconding Grarpamp on this.

Are you saying John Young shouldn't have published the server logs in the 
first place? Can't agree more!

-- 
Pozdrawiam,
Michał "rysiek" Woźniak

Zmieniam klucz GPG :: http://rys.io/pl/147
GPG Key Transition :: http://rys.io/en/147
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From rysiek at hackerspace.pl  Sat Oct 10 13:45:21 2015
From: rysiek at hackerspace.pl (rysiek)
Date: Sat, 10 Oct 2015 22:45:21 +0200
Subject: [cryptome] Cryptome has been leaking its user logs for over a year
In-Reply-To: <20151010122745.GC2694@sivokote.iziade.m$>
References: <CANFTA0-4ZDCq-QMAj=KeT7i00OUvBWCZ2VM32HHsnzMiUhkMeg@mail.gmail.com>
 <3834290.gv7rWBnLsF@lapuntu> <20151010122745.GC2694@sivokote.iziade.m$>
Message-ID: <11467154.EQhL437Qhy@lapuntu>

Dnia sobota, 10 października 2015 15:27:45 Georgi Guninski pisze:
> On Sat, Oct 10, 2015 at 01:13:06PM +0200, rysiek wrote:
> > Dnia piątek, 9 października 2015 15:42:51 Travis Biehn pisze:
> > > 2) I hope IA and other parties don't know I was drooling over TS dox.
> > > Use an anonymizing platform. If you're relying on the operator to 'not
> > > keep
> > > logs' *you're doing it wrong*, not JY.
> > 
> > This is classic "blaming the victim" move.
> 
> And who is the victim?

All whose IP addresses and metadata (date, time UA string, etc) got published 
within the logfiles.

> > Should I take care of my own opsec? By all means.
> > Is it okay to publish/sell logs by the service provider? No, no it
> > isn't.
> 
> Selling logs to the customers you logged and who (if they notice) likely
> will do the best to discredit you?

Selling logs with such data to anywone, really.

> https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Joint_Threat_Research_Intelligenc
> e_Group&oldid=670966374
> 
> Joint Threat Research Intelligence Group (JTRIG)
> 
> ---
> In June 2015, NSA files published by Glenn Greenwald revealed new
> details about JTRIG's work at covertly manipulating online
> communities.[6]
> ---

Can you be more clear who you claim to be a JTRIGger here?

-- 
Pozdrawiam,
Michał "rysiek" Woźniak

Zmieniam klucz GPG :: http://rys.io/pl/147
GPG Key Transition :: http://rys.io/en/147
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From rysiek at hackerspace.pl  Sat Oct 10 13:46:54 2015
From: rysiek at hackerspace.pl (rysiek)
Date: Sat, 10 Oct 2015 22:46:54 +0200
Subject: [cryptome] Cryptome has been leaking its user logs for over a year
In-Reply-To: <56193D14.3090501@riseup.net>
References: <CANFTA0-4ZDCq-QMAj=KeT7i00OUvBWCZ2VM32HHsnzMiUhkMeg@mail.gmail.com>
 <3834290.gv7rWBnLsF@lapuntu> <56193D14.3090501@riseup.net>
Message-ID: <2090232.l93khDtUW8@lapuntu>

Dnia sobota, 10 października 2015 09:30:12 Razer pisze:
> On 10/10/2015 04:13 AM, rysiek wrote:
> > Dnia piątek, 9 października 2015 15:42:51 Travis Biehn pisze:
> >> 2) I hope IA and other parties don't know I was drooling over TS dox.
> >> Use an anonymizing platform. If you're relying on the operator to 'not
> >> keep
> >> logs' *you're doing it wrong*, not JY.
> > 
> > This is classic "blaming the victim" move.
> 
> No it isn't. It's called "Taking Responsibility instead of depending on
> others"
> 
> ... It's SURVIVAL. Are you going to codepend on someone else for it?

Please point out what exactly eludes your understanding in the following two 
lines (4 sentences). I know it's a bit much, but I will do my best to explain.

> > Should I take care of my own opsec? By all means.
> > Is it okay to publish/sell logs by the service provider? No, no it isn't.

-- 
Pozdrawiam,
Michał "rysiek" Woźniak

Zmieniam klucz GPG :: http://rys.io/pl/147
GPG Key Transition :: http://rys.io/en/147
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From rysiek at hackerspace.pl  Sat Oct 10 13:57:49 2015
From: rysiek at hackerspace.pl (rysiek)
Date: Sat, 10 Oct 2015 22:57:49 +0200
Subject: Why cryptome sold web logs to their paying customers?
In-Reply-To: <5619779B.6010602@riseup.net>
References: <CANFTA09SE-Q4uy1tgwZZdROrtXq2i3DUjSG1bubf1nFBZfnfMw@mail.gmail.com>
 <7628BF0B-D97A-469F-A77E-7263DB55DF9B@gmail.com>
 <5619779B.6010602@riseup.net>
Message-ID: <361130450.tI8aiBKpxX@lapuntu>

Dnia sobota, 10 października 2015 13:39:55 Razer pisze:
> On 10/10/2015 01:35 PM, Michael Best wrote:
> > Nope, laughing at someone who has no idea how little a media mention
> > is worth in terms of money.
> > 
> > Sent from my iPhone
> 
> Yes I do and it depends on how much money you consider 'money'... For
> some, paying the rent is enough. Ask any artist or musician.

So... are you saying Michael Best is profiting from disclosure of Cryptome 
server logs with full metadata of Cryptome users? I wonder who made those logs 
available in the first place!

Are you also saying that John Young's name's appearance in DailyDot or any 
other media constitutes an ongoing for-profit commercial motivation as 
distributor?

-- 
Pozdrawiam,
Michał "rysiek" Woźniak

Zmieniam klucz GPG :: http://rys.io/pl/147
GPG Key Transition :: http://rys.io/en/147
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From rysiek at hackerspace.pl  Sat Oct 10 14:05:35 2015
From: rysiek at hackerspace.pl (rysiek)
Date: Sat, 10 Oct 2015 23:05:35 +0200
Subject: Introduce randommess in keypress timings
In-Reply-To: <56168A1E.1000508@openmailbox.org>
References: <1394632190.1340809.1444180572869.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com>
 <1893255.VQLqDBsadc@lapuntu> <56168A1E.1000508@openmailbox.org>
Message-ID: <23683293.9YRolDBuV1@lapuntu>

Dnia czwartek, 8 października 2015 16:22:06 oshwm pisze:
> On 08/10/15 15:51, rysiek wrote:
> > Dnia środa, 7 października 2015 16:48:49 Michael Nelson pisze:
> >> This is more technical than political, but may be of interest.
> > 
> > This has to be the best comment on the content of this list.
> 
> Yep, lets of political stuff on this list but may I bring to your
> attention sir...
> 
> Introduce Randomm[n]ess in Keypress timings
> How to buy a root CA certificate
> Cryptome has been leaking its user logs for over a year
> Cyber Guerilla Warefare, OPSEC, etc...
> 
> These have been useful threads and are just a recent selection :)
> But since when has privacy, anonymity and cryptography been devoid of
> Politics.

You do realise I was being a mild troll right there, right? ;)

-- 
Pozdrawiam,
Michał "rysiek" Woźniak

Zmieniam klucz GPG :: http://rys.io/pl/147
GPG Key Transition :: http://rys.io/en/147
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From carimachet at gmail.com  Sat Oct 10 13:09:49 2015
From: carimachet at gmail.com (Cari Machet)
Date: Sat, 10 Oct 2015 23:09:49 +0300
Subject: The GCHQ Cryptome slide could be a mockup/disinfo
In-Reply-To: <CANFTA0-sZWFLfugE8m2fKwPuE4yo1ikXi8upPG5QTKXmGWEGFg@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CANFTA0-sZWFLfugE8m2fKwPuE4yo1ikXi8upPG5QTKXmGWEGFg@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAGRDzQX9m6sZ_adD3ZW+MLG0kG110eubAHs8YcmsdK0cnEDBCg@mail.gmail.com>

Sir i am not in your head

I get it john young leaked logs you pointed it out he waffled and then did
admit it but sir you also leaked logs unredacted and i see no evidence of
an ask by you of this list for help

It could have been "hey is anyone interested in helping me get through this
difficulty with a compromised log of a site" simple stuff ... if no one
replied another more pointed ask could have come but instead you replicated

Listen have a think on what is being critisized about your process ...
criticizm can be healthy to absorb and we can shift out like that ...thru
council with others we can have many minds
On Oct 10, 2015 8:50 PM, "Michael Best" <themikebest at gmail.com> wrote:

> Did you see the first one where I asked for help verifying the information
> in redacted form, specifically from John Young/Cryptome but in no way
> excluding the list?
>
> Or that after I posted the redacted version of the logs, and before John
> Young first denied they were real (before denying it again then admitting
> it again), he sent me an email saying ""Keep at it."
>
> Or my general request on Twitter, which wasn't limited to the list and
> occurred after the list had been alerted to the matter?
> https://twitter.com/NatSecGeek/status/651760609189568512
>
>
>> Ok i read it all see no fucking ask of this community for help on the
>> matter
>
>
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From rysiek at hackerspace.pl  Sat Oct 10 14:17:54 2015
From: rysiek at hackerspace.pl (rysiek)
Date: Sat, 10 Oct 2015 23:17:54 +0200
Subject: [cryptome] Re: [cryptome]
In-Reply-To: <56197DD8.8080409@riseup.net>
References: <CANFTA08aZwfZHF=wL8mV_8qhijK39RfALQ7HfoTOb+eVsHgYjQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <4314758.UDpymEa7mP@lapuntu> <56197DD8.8080409@riseup.net>
Message-ID: <1766533.14HbIAYaJP@lapuntu>

Dnia sobota, 10 października 2015 14:06:32 Razer pisze:
> On 10/10/2015 01:40 PM, rysiek wrote:
> > Dnia sobota, 10 października 2015 09:58:44 Razer pisze:
> >> On 10/09/2015 07:56 PM, Mirimir wrote:
> >>> In my world, people don't publish stuff that puts their [friends,
> >>> allies, fellow travelers, etc] at risk. Even to make a point.
> >> 
> >> Seconding Grarpamp on this.
> > 
> > Are you saying John Young shouldn't have published the server logs in the
> > first place? Can't agree more!
> 
> I'm saying neither of them should do so, yes.

Well, what was Michael Best supposed to do, then? He provided redacted 
examples, and was accused of mangling/falsifying the data. I would love to 
hear your solution.

> Ps. I still don't know what the motivation for JYA's giving/selling the
> logs,

I'm perfectly fine with "this got missed unintentionally"; but I am unclear 
whith why JYA was denying/slandering MB later on, instead of admitting shit 
happened, fixing it and moving on.

> but I'm pretty sure of the other party's motivations.

And that is?

-- 
Pozdrawiam,
Michał "rysiek" Woźniak

Zmieniam klucz GPG :: http://rys.io/pl/147
GPG Key Transition :: http://rys.io/en/147
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From zen at freedbms.net  Sat Oct 10 19:46:21 2015
From: zen at freedbms.net (Zenaan Harkness)
Date: Sun, 11 Oct 2015 02:46:21 +0000
Subject: USA government debt ceiling
In-Reply-To: <20151005124251.GC2489@sivokote.iziade.m$>
References: <CAOsGNSSpW6H5POz=xF5NpNc6Xvie_XoTStKtgDnThrE5Ys9Uqw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAOsGNSR9tXKM9+nPvJgT_7qESJPSJ9JuXWyeNFqBoPUCFEY3Bg@mail.gmail.com>
 <20151005124251.GC2489@sivokote.iziade.m$>
Message-ID: <CAOsGNSSvyQc8LGkoYMVWpqXB0QCj=gOeoXrPXL7Max=Wtu5NaQ@mail.gmail.com>

On 10/5/15, Georgi Guninski <guninski at guninski.com> wrote:
> On Mon, Oct 05, 2015 at 02:12:18AM +0000, Zenaan Harkness wrote:
>> Just found this, which has a fair bit of more current info, for those
>> interested:
>>
>> http://english.pravda.ru/business/finance/02-10-2015/132222-usa_debt_bomb-0/
>
> From pravda.ru:
>
> ====
> Now, the government in the USA owes $46 trillion,
> US corporations owe $15 trillion, US individuals
> owe $13 trillion plus there are $315 trillion in
> outstanding wall street derivatives. (Few Americans
> know what a derivative is, but we as a nation are
> on the hook for up to $315 trillion in additional
> debt because of these derivatives.) These debt
> figures continue to escalate with each passing month
> ====
>
> Haven't seen the debt about $315T on the interwebs,
> possibly due to ignorance.
>
> From wikipedia which cites data from 2014 Q1
>
> ===
> https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Financial_position_of_the_United_States&oldid=661507517
> The financial position of the United States includes
> assets of at least $269.6 trillion (1576% of GDP)
> and debts of $145.8 trillion (852% of GDP) to produce
> a net worth of at least $123.8 trillion (723% of GDP,)
> [a] as of Q1 2014.
> ===
>
>
> QUESTION:
>
> Is there a citable reference for the debt of
> $315 treeeeelion?
>
> I mean, if I troll americans about this and cite .ru
> they almost surely will call me a commie.
>
> I don't trust pravda.ru much, but lying about numbers
> which can easily be disproved doesn't appear very
> likely to me.

More info and explanations of the USA's gig is nearly up (and I'm
pretty sure their last estimate of 2023 lates, is certainly much
further into the future than the actual reset/collapse of US dollar):
http://english.pravda.ru/business/finance/08-10-2015/132278-us_treasury_swap-0/

"There are $630 trillion in outstanding derivatives globally according
to the Bank of International Settlements (BIS) in Switzerland. That
is, about $630 trillion in bets placed on about $100 trillion in
stocks and bonds."

I'm guessing that's the global position - so the USA govt, wall street
etc account for about half of all the world's debts and derivatives -
I assume these figures are just for US dollars. There are perhaps
other, much smaller, currency markets - bitcoin of course, but perhaps
other currencies too.

Z




From juan.g71 at gmail.com  Sun Oct 11 00:54:59 2015
From: juan.g71 at gmail.com (Juan)
Date: Sun, 11 Oct 2015 04:54:59 -0300
Subject: USA government debt ceiling
In-Reply-To: <20151011072236.GB2610@sivokote.iziade.m$>
References: <CAOsGNSSpW6H5POz=xF5NpNc6Xvie_XoTStKtgDnThrE5Ys9Uqw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAOsGNSR9tXKM9+nPvJgT_7qESJPSJ9JuXWyeNFqBoPUCFEY3Bg@mail.gmail.com>
 <20151005124251.GC2489@sivokote.iziade.m$>
 <CAOsGNSSvyQc8LGkoYMVWpqXB0QCj=gOeoXrPXL7Max=Wtu5NaQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <20151011072236.GB2610@sivokote.iziade.m$>
Message-ID: <561a1484.13588c0a.c48ef.2eeb@mx.google.com>

On Sun, 11 Oct 2015 10:22:36 +0300
Georgi Guninski <guninski at guninski.com> wrote:

> As I read the usa credit rating according to S&P, Moody's, Fitch it is
> excellent:
> http://www.tradingeconomics.com/united-states/rating
> United States
> AA+ 	STABLE 	Aaa 	STABLE 	AAA
> STABLE

	Do you think the banking mafia, which is nothing but an arm of
	the state, is going to 'downgrade' itself? 

	I'm not sure if I already linked this. 

	http://www.nytimes.com/2010/11/17/opinion/17buffett.html?_r=0

	Oh yes. The credit rating of all those scumbags is
	aaaa++++doubleplusgood because....they can print all the money
	they 'need'. 

	Now, obviously, such a game can't last forever, but, you are not
	going to arrive to any solid forecast by browsing the interwebz.













From themikebest at gmail.com  Sun Oct 11 04:27:32 2015
From: themikebest at gmail.com (Michael Best)
Date: Sun, 11 Oct 2015 07:27:32 -0400
Subject: WHY make a fake GCHQ slide?
In-Reply-To: <CANFTA0-DN1XRUNc=xhEw3X2r=6MsOn30f-uobhkq98zUJPSqkA@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CANFTA0-DN1XRUNc=xhEw3X2r=6MsOn30f-uobhkq98zUJPSqkA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CANFTA09nZBkNgQZ2_=2qL15anWhoWn7k-gZ_ui5oWEArcdqg6w@mail.gmail.com>

>
> IMHO you didn't disprove the slide is real, you are casting doubt over
> it.
>

I agree completely! "In other words, the guilty knowledge implied by the
accuracy of the slide can imply things other than being guilt of
surveillance." Proving that it could be *definitely* doesn't mean that it
*is*.


> If it really was leaked by Snowden, the question is where it came from.


I'd say that question is even more relative if it came from anywhere but
Snowden.

On Sat, Oct 10, 2015 at 6:46 PM, Michael Best <themikebest at gmail.com> wrote:

> Here's my preliminary list of potential reasons for faking a GCHQ slide. Not meant to be comprehensive, and not every possibility is highly likely. Some are included only for completeness, but I'm sure there are possibilities I missed.
>
> There have been a few incidents already where the slides have been challenged or at least partially debunked. The German prosecutor found a lack of evidence that the NSA was illegally monitoring their government and concluded that the alleged NSA order was a fake. Snowden has also accused The Independent of attributing slides to him that he never gave to them.
>
> The why depends on the who. Candidates include:
>
>
>    - GCHQ
>    - Snowden (included for completeness, but least likely. Why fake this particular slide among many apparently legitimate ones?)
>    - Russian chekist agencies
>    - Chinese intelligence agencies
>    - The Intercept
>    - Intel service X
>    -
>
> If the GCHQ, then there are a few possible reasons:
>
>    1. Part of a proposal/demo
>    2. Disinfo to discourage visitors from going to Cryptome
>    3. Disinfo to create paranoia
>    4. Disinfo to discredit other slides (Snowden suggests something like that here http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2013/aug/23/uk-government-independent-military-base )
>    5. Disinfo to convince a FIS (foreign intel service) that their capabilities are better/more complete than they are (or were better than they were at the time)
>
> If Snowden:
>
>    1. ???
>    2. Makes no sense as an isolated incident, little evidence to the contrary
>    3. Would not necessarily recognize a fake slide, since he didn't examine all of the ones he passed on
>
> If Russian disinfo:
>
>    1. Discredit the GCHQ
>    2. Discredit western governments and undermine their intelligence agencies
>    3. Inflate the importance of Cryptome prior to attempting to use them to release disinfo
>
> If Chinese disinfo:
>
>    1. Smear British cyber operations as part of their ongoing cyberwar with the west and related cognitive warfare
>    2. Discredit the GCHQ
>    3. Discredit western governments and undermine their intelligence agencies
>    4. Inflate the importance of Cryptome prior to attempting to use them to release disinfo
>
> If The Intercept:
>
>    1. Fame
>    2. Money from being paid to publish a fake by any interested party
>    3. Financial compensation from media attention as suggested by Razer/Rayzer at riseup.net
>
> If Intel service x:
>
>    1. Any of the above
>
> *Juan* juan.g71 at gmail.com
>>
>> <juan.g71%40gmail.com?Subject=Re%3A%20Why%20cryptome%20sold%20web%20logs%20to%20their%20paying%20customers%3F&In-Reply-To=%3C5619825d.361f8c0a.691ce.fffffe96%40mx.google.com%3E>
>> *Sat Oct 10 17:31:29 EDT 2015*>*I still don't get who would make such a
>> fake and why. *
>
>
>
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From guninski at guninski.com  Sun Oct 11 00:07:45 2015
From: guninski at guninski.com (Georgi Guninski)
Date: Sun, 11 Oct 2015 10:07:45 +0300
Subject: USA government debt ceiling
In-Reply-To: <CAOsGNSSvyQc8LGkoYMVWpqXB0QCj=gOeoXrPXL7Max=Wtu5NaQ@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAOsGNSSpW6H5POz=xF5NpNc6Xvie_XoTStKtgDnThrE5Ys9Uqw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAOsGNSR9tXKM9+nPvJgT_7qESJPSJ9JuXWyeNFqBoPUCFEY3Bg@mail.gmail.com>
 <20151005124251.GC2489@sivokote.iziade.m$>
 <CAOsGNSSvyQc8LGkoYMVWpqXB0QCj=gOeoXrPXL7Max=Wtu5NaQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <20151011070745.GA2610@sivokote.iziade.m$>

On Sun, Oct 11, 2015 at 02:46:21AM +0000, Zenaan Harkness wrote:
> > QUESTION:
> >
> > Is there a citable reference for the debt of
> > $315 treeeeelion?
> >
> More info and explanations of the USA's gig is nearly up (and I'm
> pretty sure their last estimate of 2023 lates, is certainly much
> further into the future than the actual reset/collapse of US dollar):
> http://english.pravda.ru/business/finance/08-10-2015/132278-us_treasury_swap-0/
> 
> "There are $630 trillion in outstanding derivatives globally according
> to the Bank of International Settlements (BIS) in Switzerland. That
> is, about $630 trillion in bets placed on about $100 trillion in
> stocks and bonds."
>

Interesting (but doesn't seem citable reference to me).

How the financial market is still working?

And how such bets survived so far?




From shelley at misanthropia.org  Sun Oct 11 10:19:36 2015
From: shelley at misanthropia.org (Shelley)
Date: Sun, 11 Oct 2015 10:19:36 -0700
Subject: [cryptome] Re: Why cryptome sold web logs to their paying
 customers?
In-Reply-To: <CAJPiuDoHqK2YieYuedaeEZgACd4hf2fNV1ryhbqD_1RD0=xs5w@mail.gmail.com>
References: <20151010065326.GA2694@sivokote.iziade.m$>
 <5619468B.2050103@riseup.net>
 <20151010185116.9E349C00019@frontend1.nyi.internal>
 <56196739.2040408@riseup.net>
 <20151010194357.3A800C00013@frontend1.nyi.internal>
 <CAN01u_BRmUWHb6r3A4H9rroAhcpho1F-ik80wKcus0Q8x38-yQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAJPiuDoY38SVaNrdWXK_ssdA106V77+-02x1FUEW=+i9j95iAg@mail.gmail.com>
 <E1ZlJcg-0002GR-GX@elasmtp-junco.atl.sa.earthlink.net>
 <CANFTA0_4hh7O14uySEmufgpk9oPoLS2uX4G-D9Ls=R956BQB5Q@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAJPiuDoHqK2YieYuedaeEZgACd4hf2fNV1ryhbqD_1RD0=xs5w@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <20151011171920.18198C00018@frontend1.nyi.internal>

On October 11, 2015 10:05:29 AM lucas power <power.lucas at gmail.com> wrote:

> Also seems to be geared toward individuals monetizing blogs and such, which
> to my thinking are just scraps from Big Data's table. I'm more interested
> in understanding how something like me using gmail provides google with a
> product to sell on to a corp or govt actor. How are valuations reached, how
> are transactions structured?

Not Google specifically, but here is one example of the highly invasive 
tracking of much, much more than web logs:

https://www.propublica.org/article/verizons-zombie-cookie-gets-new-life

"Verizon is giving a new mission to its controversial identifier that 
tracks users that tracks users of mobile devices.  Verizon said in a little 
noticed announcement that it will
soon begin sharing the profiles with AOL's ad network, which in turn 
monitors users across a large swath of the Internet.

That means AOL's ad network will be able to match millions of Internet 
users to their real-world details gathered by Verizon, including  "your 
gender, age range and interests." AOL's network is on 40 percent of 
websites, including on ProPublica.  AOL will also be able to use data from 
Verizon's identifier to track the apps that mobile users open, what sites 
they visit, and for how long. Verizon purchased AOL earlier this year."

More at the link, plus previous reports on the Verizon zombie cookie.

-Shelley





> On Sun, Oct 11, 2015 at 12:39 PM, Michael Best <themikebest at gmail.com>
> wrote:
>
> > That site doesn't mention anything about web logs or IP addresses. =(
> >
> > On Sun, Oct 11, 2015 at 12:46 PM, John Young <jya at pipeline.com> wrote:
> >
> >> Maybe try Google with this search phrase:
> >>
> >> "How to monetize your website" for 400,000 hits.
> >>
> >> Omit the quotes for 5 million hits.
> >>
> >> Quick overview:
> >>
> >> 33 Ways To Monetize your Website
> >>
> >> http://websitesetup.org/33-ways-to-monetize-website/
> >>
> >> The best way is to have your filthy rich relative buy your solution
> >> to immortality.
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >





From guninski at guninski.com  Sun Oct 11 00:22:36 2015
From: guninski at guninski.com (Georgi Guninski)
Date: Sun, 11 Oct 2015 10:22:36 +0300
Subject: USA government debt ceiling
In-Reply-To: <CAOsGNSSvyQc8LGkoYMVWpqXB0QCj=gOeoXrPXL7Max=Wtu5NaQ@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAOsGNSSpW6H5POz=xF5NpNc6Xvie_XoTStKtgDnThrE5Ys9Uqw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAOsGNSR9tXKM9+nPvJgT_7qESJPSJ9JuXWyeNFqBoPUCFEY3Bg@mail.gmail.com>
 <20151005124251.GC2489@sivokote.iziade.m$>
 <CAOsGNSSvyQc8LGkoYMVWpqXB0QCj=gOeoXrPXL7Max=Wtu5NaQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <20151011072236.GB2610@sivokote.iziade.m$>

As I read the usa credit rating according to S&P, Moody's, Fitch it is
excellent:
http://www.tradingeconomics.com/united-states/rating
United States
AA+ 	STABLE 	Aaa 	STABLE 	AAA 	STABLE




From guninski at guninski.com  Sun Oct 11 00:29:19 2015
From: guninski at guninski.com (Georgi Guninski)
Date: Sun, 11 Oct 2015 10:29:19 +0300
Subject: WHY make a fake GCHQ slide?
In-Reply-To: <CANFTA0-DN1XRUNc=xhEw3X2r=6MsOn30f-uobhkq98zUJPSqkA@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CANFTA0-DN1XRUNc=xhEw3X2r=6MsOn30f-uobhkq98zUJPSqkA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <20151011072919.GC2610@sivokote.iziade.m$>

IMHO you didn't disprove the slide is real, you are casting doubt over
it.

If it really was leaked by Snowden, the question is where it came from.

On Sat, Oct 10, 2015 at 06:46:13PM -0400, Michael Best wrote:
> Here's my preliminary list of potential reasons for faking a GCHQ
> slide. Not meant to be comprehensive, and not every possibility is
> highly likely. Some are included only for completeness, but I'm sure
> there are possibilities I missed.
> 
> There have been a few incidents already where the slides have been
> challenged or at least partially debunked. The German prosecutor found
> a lack of evidence that the NSA was illegally monitoring their
> government and concluded that the alleged NSA order was a fake.
> Snowden has also accused The Independent of attributing slides to him
> that he never gave to them.
> 
> The why depends on the who. Candidates include:
> 
> 
>    - GCHQ
>    - Snowden (included for completeness, but least likely. Why fake
> this particular slide among many apparently legitimate ones?)
>    - Russian chekist agencies
>    - Chinese intelligence agencies
>    - The Intercept
>    - Intel service X
>    -
> 
> If the GCHQ, then there are a few possible reasons:
> 
>    1. Part of a proposal/demo
>    2. Disinfo to discourage visitors from going to Cryptome
>    3. Disinfo to create paranoia
>    4. Disinfo to discredit other slides (Snowden suggests something
> like that here http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2013/aug/23/uk-government-independent-military-base
> )
>    5. Disinfo to convince a FIS (foreign intel service) that their
> capabilities are better/more complete than they are (or were better
> than they were at the time)
> 
> If Snowden:
> 
>    1. ???
>    2. Makes no sense as an isolated incident, little evidence to the contrary
>    3. Would not necessarily recognize a fake slide, since he didn't
> examine all of the ones he passed on
> 
> If Russian disinfo:
> 
>    1. Discredit the GCHQ
>    2. Discredit western governments and undermine their intelligence agencies
>    3. Inflate the importance of Cryptome prior to attempting to use
> them to release disinfo
> 
> If Chinese disinfo:
> 
>    1. Smear British cyber operations as part of their ongoing cyberwar
> with the west and related cognitive warfare
>    2. Discredit the GCHQ
>    3. Discredit western governments and undermine their intelligence agencies
>    4. Inflate the importance of Cryptome prior to attempting to use
> them to release disinfo
> 
> If The Intercept:
> 
>    1. Fame
>    2. Money from being paid to publish a fake by any interested party
>    3. Financial compensation from media attention as suggested by
> Razer/Rayzer at riseup.net
> 
> If Intel service x:
> 
>    1. Any of the above
> 
> *Juan* juan.g71 at gmail.com
> >
> > <juan.g71%40gmail.com?Subject=Re%3A%20Why%20cryptome%20sold%20web%20logs%20to%20their%20paying%20customers%3F&In-Reply-To=%3C5619825d.361f8c0a.691ce.fffffe96%40mx.google.com%3E>
> > *Sat Oct 10 17:31:29 EDT 2015*>*I still don't get who would make such a
> > fake and why. *




From shelley at misanthropia.org  Sun Oct 11 11:02:55 2015
From: shelley at misanthropia.org (Shelley)
Date: Sun, 11 Oct 2015 11:02:55 -0700
Subject: Why cryptome sold web logs to their paying customers?
In-Reply-To: <trinity-731b0262-b3be-4de0-8d9f-731ae2425bf0-1444583318602@3capp-mailcom-lxa16>
References: <trinity-731b0262-b3be-4de0-8d9f-731ae2425bf0-1444583318602@3capp-mailcom-lxa16>
Message-ID: <20151011180239.EA60FC00014@frontend1.nyi.internal>

On October 11, 2015 10:14:15 AM "Dr. J Feinstein" <drjfeinstein at mail.com> 
wrote:

> Resend–HTML email scrubbed
>
> Calling bullshit. Mirimirs right, this makes no sense. And JYA says netsol 
> won't let him delete the logs but Netsol says logs are disabled by 
> default[https://www.networksolutions.com/support/how-to-enable-download-the-web-logs/] 
> and you have to turn them on.
>
> So how the fuckd this really happen?

I truly don't know.  I don't have any more info than anyone else, I was 
just musing about how it could have happened.  Obviously, hearing  JY's 
explanation would be the best thing.

Also agree re: the /var/log issue, but I get the impression that the 
restored files weren't kept in the normal file tree structure.  Again, I 
simply don't know and I'm not trying to be an overt JY apologist - I'm just 
saying sometimes, shit happens.  It would help if he would weigh in instead 
of having dorks like me positing hypotheticals.

-S


>
> Mirimir <mirimir at riseup.net>
> Are you arguing that users could have found those logs?
>
> I almost can't imagine that. Logs are normally in /var/log/ somewhere,
> and I can't imagine making them searchable. And indeed, I can't imagine
> how Cryptome archives would have included anything from /var/log/, even
> after system restore from backups.
>
> <--SNIP-->
>
> > Should access logs be kept for that long? Absolutely not. From what I> 
> have read in the email exchange that was posted, the log files were> 
> included in a NetSol total restore. My guess is that John/Cryptome did> not 
> intentionally keep these files, and did not realize these files were> 
> included in the archive.
> But that's the thing. Logs should have been in /var/log/. And how would
> the "NetSol total restore" have changed that?
>
> > When I do incremental backups or updates on my own systems, I don't> 
> usually go back and check the integrity of files I've already archived> in 
> my closed system. I can see where this could be an honest mistake> that has 
> gotten blown way out of proportion. It's a good lesson to be> more aware of 
> these types of glitches.
> I still don't get how logs would have ended up in archives. Maybe JYA
> prepared a special set of archives for a collaborator. Maybe for someone
> helping him to understand what had happened. And then maybe he forgot
> about doing that. Hard to say.
>





From guninski at guninski.com  Sun Oct 11 01:33:12 2015
From: guninski at guninski.com (Georgi Guninski)
Date: Sun, 11 Oct 2015 11:33:12 +0300
Subject: [cryptome] Cryptome has been leaking its user logs for over a year
In-Reply-To: <11467154.EQhL437Qhy@lapuntu>
References: <CANFTA0-4ZDCq-QMAj=KeT7i00OUvBWCZ2VM32HHsnzMiUhkMeg@mail.gmail.com>
 <3834290.gv7rWBnLsF@lapuntu>
 <20151010122745.GC2694@sivokote.iziade.m$>
 <11467154.EQhL437Qhy@lapuntu>
Message-ID: <20151011083312.GD2610@sivokote.iziade.m$>

On Sat, Oct 10, 2015 at 10:45:21PM +0200, rysiek wrote:
> Dnia sobota, 10 października 2015 15:27:45 Georgi Guninski pisze:
> > On Sat, Oct 10, 2015 at 01:13:06PM +0200, rysiek wrote:
> > > Dnia piątek, 9 października 2015 15:42:51 Travis Biehn pisze:
> > > > 2) I hope IA and other parties don't know I was drooling over TS dox.
> > > > Use an anonymizing platform. If you're relying on the operator to 'not
> > > > keep
> > > > logs' *you're doing it wrong*, not JY.
> > > 
> > > This is classic "blaming the victim" move.
> > 
> > And who is the victim?
> 
> All whose IP addresses and metadata (date, time UA string, etc) got published 
> within the logfiles.
> 
> > > Should I take care of my own opsec? By all means.
> > > Is it okay to publish/sell logs by the service provider? No, no it
> > > isn't.
> > 
> > Selling logs to the customers you logged and who (if they notice) likely
> > will do the best to discredit you?
> 
> Selling logs with such data to anywone, really.
>

You know the majority of customers buying USBs almost surely regularly
browsed cryptome?

Selling THEIR logged info to them is definitely insane business plan.

IMHO in this incident cryptome made several mistakes (possibly with a
little help from their "friends"). If I were JYA I would apologize for
the mistakes.

Observe that running such site makes usa your adversary, so the task is
highly non-trivial.





From shelley at misanthropia.org  Sun Oct 11 11:57:31 2015
From: shelley at misanthropia.org (Shelley)
Date: Sun, 11 Oct 2015 11:57:31 -0700
Subject: [cryptome] Re: Why cryptome sold web logs to their paying
 customers?
In-Reply-To: <CANFTA09yPPnctXkBcuvNORm2+0=7Y+fRU4c7rm0L4id7xU-Vog@mail.gmail.com>
References: <trinity-731b0262-b3be-4de0-8d9f-731ae2425bf0-1444583318602@3capp-mailcom-lxa16>
 <20151011180239.EA60FC00014@frontend1.nyi.internal>
 <CANFTA09yPPnctXkBcuvNORm2+0=7Y+fRU4c7rm0L4id7xU-Vog@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <20151011185715.02EB5C00014@frontend1.nyi.internal>

On October 11, 2015 11:44:07 AM Michael Best <themikebest at gmail.com> wrote:

> >
> > Has anyone stopped to think that perhaps it was on absolute purpose as a
> > warning of lack of safety on his servers due to known 'but unable to speak
> > about’ system compromise? Ie. The same fashion as a warrant canary, or what
> > have you?
> > JYA’s stance has always seemed to have been: You’re not safe, please do
> > not be deluded into believing any systems, statements, or mathematical
> > systems will always have your back. Perhaps this is just to bring it into
> > the absolute light for those too dense to grasp this mindset.
> > The above scenario would also explain his general lack of input on the
> > situation — I myself have been expecting miles and miles of (interestingly
> > grotesque almost) prose about the situation.
> > _benjamin
> >
>

bbrewer has made a good point, actually.  If someone is served a NSL, they 
are gagged - prohibited by law from saying anything about it.  Look at Nick 
from Calyx: after a decade, his gag order has finally been lifted but there 
is still a 90-day period during which the gag remains intact to give the 
feds time to appeal.  It's crazy stuff.

Even if JY did it to "make a point" about all security being illusory BS, 
the log files dropped are old enough that they probably wouldn't cause much 
harm.  The same basic argument used by Wikileaks when they dropped the 
State Dept cables.

-S

> If so, then why did he spend a week denying it, calling me a liar, saying
> the data is fake and accusing it of being disinfo? And why not notify
> people on the website instead of the occasional tweet about how all logs
> leak/it's "not the worst"?
>
> And if it *was* purposeful, how is *that* okay? If he leaked four months
> worth of his users' logs and metadata including search terms, *to make a
> point*?
>
>
> > On Sun, Oct 11, 2015 at 2:02 PM, Shelley <shelley at misanthropia.org> wrote:
> >
> > Calling bullshit. Mirimirs right, this makes no sense. And JYA says netsol
> > won't let him delete the logs but Netsol says logs are disabled by default[
> > 
> https://www.networksolutions.com/support/how-to-enable-download-the-web-logs/]
> > and you have to turn them on.
> > So how the fuckd this really happen?
> > I truly don't know.  I don't have any more info than anyone else, I was
> > just musing about how it could have happened.  Obviously, hearing  JY's
> > explanation would be the best thing.
> > Also agree re: the /var/log issue, but I get the impression that the
> > restored files weren't kept in the normal file tree structure.  Again, I
> > simply don't know and I'm not trying to be an overt JY apologist - I'm just
> > saying sometimes, shit happens.  It would help if he would weigh in instead
> > of having dorks like me positing hypotheticals.
> > -S
> >
> > Mirimir <mirimir at riseup.net>
> > Are you arguing that users could have found those logs?
> > I almost can't imagine that. Logs are normally in /var/log/ somewhere,
> > and I can't imagine making them searchable. And indeed, I can't imagine
> > how Cryptome archives would have included anything from /var/log/, even
> > after system restore from backups.
> > <--SNIP-->
> > > Should access logs be kept for that long? Absolutely not. From what I>
> > have read in the email exchange that was posted, the log files were>
> > included in a NetSol total restore. My guess is that John/Cryptome did> not
> > intentionally keep these files, and did not realize these files were>
> > included in the archive.
> > But that's the thing. Logs should have been in /var/log/. And how would
> > the "NetSol total restore" have changed that?
> > > When I do incremental backups or updates on my own systems, I don't>
> > usually go back and check the integrity of files I've already archived> in
> > my closed system. I can see where this could be an honest mistake> that has
> > gotten blown way out of proportion. It's a good lesson to be> more aware of
> > these types of glitches.
> > I still don't get how logs would have ended up in archives. Maybe JYA
> > prepared a special set of archives for a collaborator. Maybe for someone
> > helping him to understand what had happened. And then maybe he forgot
> > about doing that. Hard to say.
> >
> >
> >
> > On October 11, 2015 10:14:15 AM "Dr. J Feinstein" <drjfeinstein at mail.com>
> > wrote:
> >
> >> Resend–HTML email scrubbed
> >>
> >
> >>





From zen at freedbms.net  Sun Oct 11 05:17:57 2015
From: zen at freedbms.net (Zenaan Harkness)
Date: Sun, 11 Oct 2015 12:17:57 +0000
Subject: USA government debt ceiling
In-Reply-To: <CAHWD2rKMAE7tH+t4B-P9XEPmTSRsuqEmQ8NVQKOFi2ww3uh_CQ@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAOsGNSSpW6H5POz=xF5NpNc6Xvie_XoTStKtgDnThrE5Ys9Uqw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAOsGNSR9tXKM9+nPvJgT_7qESJPSJ9JuXWyeNFqBoPUCFEY3Bg@mail.gmail.com>
 <20151005124251.GC2489@sivokote.iziade.m$>
 <CAOsGNSSvyQc8LGkoYMVWpqXB0QCj=gOeoXrPXL7Max=Wtu5NaQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <20151011070745.GA2610@sivokote.iziade.m$>
 <CAHWD2rKMAE7tH+t4B-P9XEPmTSRsuqEmQ8NVQKOFi2ww3uh_CQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAOsGNSTiRkhAP1z89uXUVOidUR2U3wNaFqZgiWZsCZxT=bi9KA@mail.gmail.com>

On 10/11/15, Lodewijk andré de la porte <l at odewijk.nl> wrote:
> 2015-10-11 9:07 GMT+02:00 Georgi Guninski <guninski at guninski.com>:
>
>> On Sun, Oct 11, 2015 at 02:46:21AM +0000, Zenaan Harkness wrote:
>> > > QUESTION:
>> > >
>> > > Is there a citable reference for the debt of
>> > > $315 treeeeelion?
>> > >
>> > More info and explanations of the USA's gig is nearly up (and I'm
>> > pretty sure their last estimate of 2023 lates, is certainly much
>> > further into the future than the actual reset/collapse of US dollar):
>> >
>> http://english.pravda.ru/business/finance/08-10-2015/132278-us_treasury_swap-0/
>> >
>> > "There are $630 trillion in outstanding derivatives globally according
>> > to the Bank of International Settlements (BIS) in Switzerland. That
>> > is, about $630 trillion in bets placed on about $100 trillion in
>> > stocks and bonds."
>> >
>>
>> Interesting (but doesn't seem citable reference to me).
>>
>> How the financial market is still working?
>>
>> And how such bets survived so far?
>
>
> Counting derivatives as debt is definitely 100% misguided. They're also

Futures are derivatives, and potentially very large debts (or gains).
This is the nature of leverage - a small outlay, a much larger return
or loss. Although the loss is not certain (of course), it is possible,
thus...

> used to amplify market swings - make or lose more with less motion,
> therefore the oversizedness is not surprising. It makes markets more
> accurate, liquid and reliable (except f-ups get amplified too sometimes).

... that's the point ... when the gambles go the wrong way, for too
many people, then sometimes very large entities go belly up, as the
above article gives examples of. When this reaches a tipping point,
there is systemic collapse as we have seen historically. Then those
large entities ("too big to fail") can be "bailed out" by the tax
payer, or "bailed in" (the newest legislation here in Australia, and
possibly in US too) by simply grabbing some portion (up to 100%) of
all depositor's deposits.

If the big entity insurance (bail in or bail out) cannot compensate
adequately for the "debts", then the systemic collapse is a
depression/ full reset, rather than just a recession.

Whether one names derivatives as debt or not is immateriel - they
amplify shit when shit happens.


> Why not just read about this online? It's very public info.

Well that's what we're looking for, something a little more definitive/ citable.

Z




From jya at pipeline.com  Sun Oct 11 09:28:02 2015
From: jya at pipeline.com (John Young)
Date: Sun, 11 Oct 2015 12:28:02 -0400
Subject: Ubiquitous AWStats Not the Worst
Message-ID: <E1ZlJL0-0001gu-NF@elasmtp-dupuy.atl.sa.earthlink.net>

Presumably cybersec wizards have warned about the ubiquity
of AWStats and access log files online, or maybe not, just quietly
exploit them. There are hundreds of thousands listed on Google's.
tip of the iceberg.

Beyond the simplistic AWStats and access logs to snapshot traffic
for the amateur pryer, peddler and peeper, there are those which log
much more about visitors' behavior, desires, secrets, hook-ups, adulteries,
informing, cheating, avoiding, perambulating among personal device
records, types and models of equipment, passwords, attempts to
anonymize, encrypt, hide, evade.

Search engines, social media, TLAs, archives, drops, clouds, server
farms, corporations, NGOs, AVs, Gorgon-headed bots, heavily-followed
and handsomely paid Schneier-Mitnick-grade global traveling gov-advising
security entrepreneurs are hardly alone in aggregating users nonchalant
share of data for those running their own Amazons of quick supply to
media, advertisers, spies, govs, invest vultures, In-Q-Tel, oligarchs,
and to swap with others operating in rogue nations and below and
beyond the superficial Dark web.

Presumably there is material in the Snowden dump, or withheld by
Snowden to "not harm national security," which shows the great range
of data available for grabbing, manipulating, exploiting, bargaining,
ransoming, doctoring, pre-positioning, threatening, monetizing,
shaping economic and political policies. And what similar holdings
are held by the opposition in a stand-off of first use of digital
mutual destruction.





From guninski at guninski.com  Sun Oct 11 02:31:13 2015
From: guninski at guninski.com (Georgi Guninski)
Date: Sun, 11 Oct 2015 12:31:13 +0300
Subject: USA government debt ceiling
In-Reply-To: <561a1484.13588c0a.c48ef.2eeb@mx.google.com>
References: <CAOsGNSSpW6H5POz=xF5NpNc6Xvie_XoTStKtgDnThrE5Ys9Uqw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAOsGNSR9tXKM9+nPvJgT_7qESJPSJ9JuXWyeNFqBoPUCFEY3Bg@mail.gmail.com>
 <20151005124251.GC2489@sivokote.iziade.m$>
 <CAOsGNSSvyQc8LGkoYMVWpqXB0QCj=gOeoXrPXL7Max=Wtu5NaQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <20151011072236.GB2610@sivokote.iziade.m$>
 <561a1484.13588c0a.c48ef.2eeb@mx.google.com>
Message-ID: <20151011093113.GA1999@sivokote.iziade.m$>

On Sun, Oct 11, 2015 at 04:54:59AM -0300, Juan wrote:
> On Sun, 11 Oct 2015 10:22:36 +0300
> Georgi Guninski <guninski at guninski.com> wrote:
> 
> > As I read the usa credit rating according to S&P, Moody's, Fitch it is
> > excellent:
> > http://www.tradingeconomics.com/united-states/rating
> > United States
> > AA+ 	STABLE 	Aaa 	STABLE 	AAA
> > STABLE
> 
> 	Do you think the banking mafia, which is nothing but an arm of
> 	the state, is going to 'downgrade' itself? 
>

IIRC these titans of economics/finance predictions failed to predict any
of the usa crisis after 1990 and someone like them even got „punished“
by a laughable fine.




From themikebest at gmail.com  Sun Oct 11 09:38:40 2015
From: themikebest at gmail.com (Michael Best)
Date: Sun, 11 Oct 2015 12:38:40 -0400
Subject: [cryptome] Re: [cryptome]
Message-ID: <CANFTA0-9zYonRQQod7x0pRa60r0aBBHUvbbf+yn=_TMG3Dzt9A@mail.gmail.com>

>
> *Cari Machet* carimachet at gmail.com
>
> <carimachet%40gmail.com?Subject=Re%3A%20%5Bcryptome%5D%20Re%3A%20%5Bcryptome%5D&In-Reply-To=%3CCAGRDzQWNCCe7AUOL%3D-YoFUdi5%2Bm2KPxsq30D3OJzgJjQUrMaCw%40mail.gmail.com%3E>*Sun
> Oct 11 12:25:43 EDT 2015*
> reveal was to protect the community (fr john) then why was that act >
> protecting the community > avoided by mike

Plus no ask to the list but said asked the list and if the point of the
>

First email asked for help, no reason the list was excluded from that even
though I explicitly asked John for help verifying it. Then I asked open
endedly on Twitter.

Also, you seem to be confusing this list with the community of Cryptome's
visitors. There's overlap, sure, but they are *not* the same.

Plus, John deleted the early emails I made to the Cryptome list, which is
more explicitly the mailing list that would be best identified as the
community you're referring to.
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From Rayzer at riseup.net  Sun Oct 11 12:56:43 2015
From: Rayzer at riseup.net (Razer)
Date: Sun, 11 Oct 2015 12:56:43 -0700
Subject: Why cryptome sold web logs to their paying customers?
In-Reply-To: <673A591B-97B1-4B1A-ACC1-8FA70F2E7ACE@littledystopia.net>
References: <trinity-731b0262-b3be-4de0-8d9f-731ae2425bf0-1444583318602@3capp-mailcom-lxa16>
 <20151011180239.EA60FC00014@frontend1.nyi.internal>
 <673A591B-97B1-4B1A-ACC1-8FA70F2E7ACE@littledystopia.net>
Message-ID: <561ABEFB.3040106@riseup.net>

On 10/11/2015 11:37 AM, bbrewer wrote:
> Has anyone stopped to think that perhaps it was on absolute purpose as a warning of lack of safety on his servers due to known 'but unable to speak about’ system compromise? Ie. The same fashion as a warrant canary, or what have you?

I thought about that. AAMOF I posted that thought about another website
that had been behaving oddly recently.

On 10/02/2015 09:53 AM, in the thread "Re: What is this "Weird garbled
Windows 7 update"?", Razer wrote:

> Suppose it's a way to mass-distribute a dead 'canary', offed by someone
> in the company who knows something the company wasn't willing to kill
> it's 'canary' over?
>
> Just rumormongering...
>
> RR
>



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From Rayzer at riseup.net  Sun Oct 11 12:59:29 2015
From: Rayzer at riseup.net (Razer)
Date: Sun, 11 Oct 2015 12:59:29 -0700
Subject: [cryptome] Re: Why cryptome sold web logs to their paying
 customers?
In-Reply-To: <CANFTA09yPPnctXkBcuvNORm2+0=7Y+fRU4c7rm0L4id7xU-Vog@mail.gmail.com>
References: <trinity-731b0262-b3be-4de0-8d9f-731ae2425bf0-1444583318602@3capp-mailcom-lxa16>
 <20151011180239.EA60FC00014@frontend1.nyi.internal>
 <CANFTA09yPPnctXkBcuvNORm2+0=7Y+fRU4c7rm0L4id7xU-Vog@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <561ABFA1.1090001@riseup.net>



On 10/11/2015 11:43 AM, Michael Best wrote:
> If so, then why did he spend a week denying it, calling me a liar,
> saying the data is fake and accusing it of being disinfo?

Because unlike Farcebook twitter Google Apple and all the others who
'squealed like a pig' after Snowden's leaks, a FISA court would put JYA
so deep in a hole no one would ever hear of his existence again. You're
NOT ALLOWED TO EVEN MENTION that the 'suits' had been in contact, no
less compromised your system...

RR

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From Rayzer at riseup.net  Sun Oct 11 13:25:03 2015
From: Rayzer at riseup.net (Razer)
Date: Sun, 11 Oct 2015 13:25:03 -0700
Subject: [cryptome] Re: Why cryptome sold web logs to their paying
 customers?
In-Reply-To: <CANFTA0-psjyujdasCnxhfQFnd5-UOr+LxD5MgRV2n+R-YiT2Lw@mail.gmail.com>
References: <trinity-731b0262-b3be-4de0-8d9f-731ae2425bf0-1444583318602@3capp-mailcom-lxa16>
 <20151011180239.EA60FC00014@frontend1.nyi.internal>
 <CANFTA09yPPnctXkBcuvNORm2+0=7Y+fRU4c7rm0L4id7xU-Vog@mail.gmail.com>
 <CANFTA0-psjyujdasCnxhfQFnd5-UOr+LxD5MgRV2n+R-YiT2Lw@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <561AC59F.9070508@riseup.net>



On 10/11/2015 01:04 PM, Michael Best wrote:
> That would explain keeping silent, *NOT* making up lies about me and
> saying the data is fake. 

I'm not going to make JYA's argument here, even if what's been assumed
is fact, but the strategy would be a stall at least with the potential
for redirection from the 'dead canary' hypothesis because it's typical
for people to explode into useless flame wars over the 'leakage' instead
of giving serious thought beyond ego/profit motives to why the leak
occurred.

But, as a notable scientist once said... "Yes, but the whole point of
the warrant canary is lost if you keep it a secret! Why didn't you tell
the world, eh!?!"

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cmCKJi3CKGE

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From l at odewijk.nl  Sun Oct 11 04:25:59 2015
From: l at odewijk.nl (=?UTF-8?Q?Lodewijk_andr=C3=A9_de_la_porte?=)
Date: Sun, 11 Oct 2015 13:25:59 +0200
Subject: WHY make a fake GCHQ slide?
In-Reply-To: <20151011072919.GC2610@sivokote.iziade.m$>
References: <CANFTA0-DN1XRUNc=xhEw3X2r=6MsOn30f-uobhkq98zUJPSqkA@mail.gmail.com>
 <20151011072919.GC2610@sivokote.iziade.m$>
Message-ID: <CAHWD2rLuKm9_ha7LwRS4RQzkbCt6DfdMi8JDfDUGmfOqKx2wCw@mail.gmail.com>

Realness is definitely a problem. I think by now a mayor reason could just
be "trolling paranoid people", as they're generally a willing target and
have no real defense against this sort of thing.

Snowden has a reputation, so he's unlikely to be fake. The Independent
would also ruin their rep by publishing fakes - but might still. It's not
unlikely Snowden/The Intercept are helped by people with various
motivations.

German court couldn't have been able to determine the slides real,
therefore must treat them false for the purpose of proof. Doesn't mean
they're actually fake, it's just not certain enough that they're real.
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From l at odewijk.nl  Sun Oct 11 04:31:26 2015
From: l at odewijk.nl (=?UTF-8?Q?Lodewijk_andr=C3=A9_de_la_porte?=)
Date: Sun, 11 Oct 2015 13:31:26 +0200
Subject: USA government debt ceiling
In-Reply-To: <20151011070745.GA2610@sivokote.iziade.m$>
References: <CAOsGNSSpW6H5POz=xF5NpNc6Xvie_XoTStKtgDnThrE5Ys9Uqw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAOsGNSR9tXKM9+nPvJgT_7qESJPSJ9JuXWyeNFqBoPUCFEY3Bg@mail.gmail.com>
 <20151005124251.GC2489@sivokote.iziade.m$>
 <CAOsGNSSvyQc8LGkoYMVWpqXB0QCj=gOeoXrPXL7Max=Wtu5NaQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <20151011070745.GA2610@sivokote.iziade.m$>
Message-ID: <CAHWD2rKMAE7tH+t4B-P9XEPmTSRsuqEmQ8NVQKOFi2ww3uh_CQ@mail.gmail.com>

2015-10-11 9:07 GMT+02:00 Georgi Guninski <guninski at guninski.com>:

> On Sun, Oct 11, 2015 at 02:46:21AM +0000, Zenaan Harkness wrote:
> > > QUESTION:
> > >
> > > Is there a citable reference for the debt of
> > > $315 treeeeelion?
> > >
> > More info and explanations of the USA's gig is nearly up (and I'm
> > pretty sure their last estimate of 2023 lates, is certainly much
> > further into the future than the actual reset/collapse of US dollar):
> >
> http://english.pravda.ru/business/finance/08-10-2015/132278-us_treasury_swap-0/
> >
> > "There are $630 trillion in outstanding derivatives globally according
> > to the Bank of International Settlements (BIS) in Switzerland. That
> > is, about $630 trillion in bets placed on about $100 trillion in
> > stocks and bonds."
> >
>
> Interesting (but doesn't seem citable reference to me).
>
> How the financial market is still working?
>
> And how such bets survived so far?


Counting derivatives as debt is definitely 100% misguided. They're also
used to amplify market swings - make or lose more with less motion,
therefore the oversizedness is not surprising. It makes markets more
accurate, liquid and reliable (except f-ups get amplified too sometimes).

Why not just read about this online? It's very public info.
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From shelley at misanthropia.org  Sun Oct 11 13:49:08 2015
From: shelley at misanthropia.org (Shelley)
Date: Sun, 11 Oct 2015 13:49:08 -0700
Subject: [cryptome] Re: Why cryptome sold web logs to their paying
 customers?
In-Reply-To: <29FDC0FF-712A-4048-AA64-67845A7CDECA@littledystopia.net>
References: <trinity-731b0262-b3be-4de0-8d9f-731ae2425bf0-1444583318602@3capp-mailcom-lxa16>
 <20151011180239.EA60FC00014@frontend1.nyi.internal>
 <CANFTA09yPPnctXkBcuvNORm2+0=7Y+fRU4c7rm0L4id7xU-Vog@mail.gmail.com>
 <CANFTA0-psjyujdasCnxhfQFnd5-UOr+LxD5MgRV2n+R-YiT2Lw@mail.gmail.com>
 <8C4170F3-B9A5-4EB6-A6DB-7BE6701DD560@littledystopia.net>
 <CANFTA0_ru=Fj0WJXqCF+dFDHCa_fLFo3PnsEqy3m=KDxQZFHpg@mail.gmail.com>
 <29FDC0FF-712A-4048-AA64-67845A7CDECA@littledystopia.net>
Message-ID: <20151011204851.D5DBAC00016@frontend1.nyi.internal>

On October 11, 2015 1:35:42 PM bbrewer <bbrewer at littledystopia.net> wrote:

>
> > On Oct 11, 2015, at 4:22 PM, Michael Best <themikebest at gmail.com> wrote:
> >
> > Anyway to rule this out other than hearing it from John? How long before 
> we begin to seriously consider it or assume it?
> >
> > And if there was a NSL, why not shut down? Why put users at ongoing risk??
>
>
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lavabit
>
> "Levison said that he could be arrested for closing the site instead of 
> releasing the information, and it was reported that the federal 
> prosecutor's office had sent Levison's lawyer an e-mail to that effect.”
>
> I’m just blabbering on suppositions here, but I wouldn’t be surprised by… 
> anything.
>
> -benjamin

That's exactly the example I was going to post, thank you.  Yes, the feds 
can force you to keep your compromised site up; basically, anything you 
might do to warn users is verboten.

Someone flaming uncharacteristically could be one of the only ways... and, 
it *is* old data.

If this is the case, and that's a very tentative IF, there is not much else 
he can do (and he did as much as he could without putting himself in legal 
hot water.)

-S





From bbrewer at littledystopia.net  Sun Oct 11 11:37:28 2015
From: bbrewer at littledystopia.net (bbrewer)
Date: Sun, 11 Oct 2015 14:37:28 -0400
Subject: Why cryptome sold web logs to their paying customers?
In-Reply-To: <20151011180239.EA60FC00014@frontend1.nyi.internal>
References: <trinity-731b0262-b3be-4de0-8d9f-731ae2425bf0-1444583318602@3capp-mailcom-lxa16>
 <20151011180239.EA60FC00014@frontend1.nyi.internal>
Message-ID: <673A591B-97B1-4B1A-ACC1-8FA70F2E7ACE@littledystopia.net>


> On Oct 11, 2015, at 2:02 PM, Shelley <shelley at misanthropia.org> wrote:
> 
> I truly don't know.  I don't have any more info than anyone else, I was just musing about how it could have happened.  Obviously, hearing  JY's explanation would be the best thing.
> 
> Also agree re: the /var/log issue, but I get the impression that the restored files weren't kept in the normal file tree structure.  Again, I simply don't know and I'm not trying to be an overt JY apologist - I'm just saying sometimes, shit happens.  It would help if he would weigh in instead of having dorks like me positing hypotheticals.
> 
> -S


Has anyone stopped to think that perhaps it was on absolute purpose as a warning of lack of safety on his servers due to known 'but unable to speak about’ system compromise? Ie. The same fashion as a warrant canary, or what have you?

JYA’s stance has always seemed to have been: You’re not safe, please do not be deluded into believing any systems, statements, or mathematical systems will always have your back. Perhaps this is just to bring it into the absolute light for those too dense to grasp this mindset.

The above scenario would also explain his general lack of input on the situation — I myself have been expecting miles and miles of (interestingly grotesque almost) prose about the situation.

_benjamin




From themikebest at gmail.com  Sun Oct 11 11:43:43 2015
From: themikebest at gmail.com (Michael Best)
Date: Sun, 11 Oct 2015 14:43:43 -0400
Subject: [cryptome] Re: Why cryptome sold web logs to their paying
 customers?
In-Reply-To: <20151011180239.EA60FC00014@frontend1.nyi.internal>
References: <trinity-731b0262-b3be-4de0-8d9f-731ae2425bf0-1444583318602@3capp-mailcom-lxa16>
 <20151011180239.EA60FC00014@frontend1.nyi.internal>
Message-ID: <CANFTA09yPPnctXkBcuvNORm2+0=7Y+fRU4c7rm0L4id7xU-Vog@mail.gmail.com>

>
> Has anyone stopped to think that perhaps it was on absolute purpose as a
> warning of lack of safety on his servers due to known 'but unable to speak
> about’ system compromise? Ie. The same fashion as a warrant canary, or what
> have you?
> JYA’s stance has always seemed to have been: You’re not safe, please do
> not be deluded into believing any systems, statements, or mathematical
> systems will always have your back. Perhaps this is just to bring it into
> the absolute light for those too dense to grasp this mindset.
> The above scenario would also explain his general lack of input on the
> situation — I myself have been expecting miles and miles of (interestingly
> grotesque almost) prose about the situation.
> _benjamin
>

If so, then why did he spend a week denying it, calling me a liar, saying
the data is fake and accusing it of being disinfo? And why not notify
people on the website instead of the occasional tweet about how all logs
leak/it's "not the worst"?

And if it *was* purposeful, how is *that* okay? If he leaked four months
worth of his users' logs and metadata including search terms, *to make a
point*?


> On Sun, Oct 11, 2015 at 2:02 PM, Shelley <shelley at misanthropia.org> wrote:
>
> Calling bullshit. Mirimirs right, this makes no sense. And JYA says netsol
> won't let him delete the logs but Netsol says logs are disabled by default[
> https://www.networksolutions.com/support/how-to-enable-download-the-web-logs/]
> and you have to turn them on.
> So how the fuckd this really happen?
> I truly don't know.  I don't have any more info than anyone else, I was
> just musing about how it could have happened.  Obviously, hearing  JY's
> explanation would be the best thing.
> Also agree re: the /var/log issue, but I get the impression that the
> restored files weren't kept in the normal file tree structure.  Again, I
> simply don't know and I'm not trying to be an overt JY apologist - I'm just
> saying sometimes, shit happens.  It would help if he would weigh in instead
> of having dorks like me positing hypotheticals.
> -S
>
> Mirimir <mirimir at riseup.net>
> Are you arguing that users could have found those logs?
> I almost can't imagine that. Logs are normally in /var/log/ somewhere,
> and I can't imagine making them searchable. And indeed, I can't imagine
> how Cryptome archives would have included anything from /var/log/, even
> after system restore from backups.
> <--SNIP-->
> > Should access logs be kept for that long? Absolutely not. From what I>
> have read in the email exchange that was posted, the log files were>
> included in a NetSol total restore. My guess is that John/Cryptome did> not
> intentionally keep these files, and did not realize these files were>
> included in the archive.
> But that's the thing. Logs should have been in /var/log/. And how would
> the "NetSol total restore" have changed that?
> > When I do incremental backups or updates on my own systems, I don't>
> usually go back and check the integrity of files I've already archived> in
> my closed system. I can see where this could be an honest mistake> that has
> gotten blown way out of proportion. It's a good lesson to be> more aware of
> these types of glitches.
> I still don't get how logs would have ended up in archives. Maybe JYA
> prepared a special set of archives for a collaborator. Maybe for someone
> helping him to understand what had happened. And then maybe he forgot
> about doing that. Hard to say.
>
>
>
> On October 11, 2015 10:14:15 AM "Dr. J Feinstein" <drjfeinstein at mail.com>
> wrote:
>
>> Resend–HTML email scrubbed
>>
>
>>
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From themikebest at gmail.com  Sun Oct 11 12:03:52 2015
From: themikebest at gmail.com (Michael Best)
Date: Sun, 11 Oct 2015 15:03:52 -0400
Subject: [cryptome] Re: Why cryptome sold web logs to their paying
 customers?
In-Reply-To: <20151011185715.02EB5C00014@frontend1.nyi.internal>
References: <trinity-731b0262-b3be-4de0-8d9f-731ae2425bf0-1444583318602@3capp-mailcom-lxa16>
 <20151011180239.EA60FC00014@frontend1.nyi.internal>
 <CANFTA09yPPnctXkBcuvNORm2+0=7Y+fRU4c7rm0L4id7xU-Vog@mail.gmail.com>
 <20151011185715.02EB5C00014@frontend1.nyi.internal>
Message-ID: <CANFTA0_3ZuMRzAX_b9+krkLBXW0OQN-SYcXEGeAnzy+474DfJQ@mail.gmail.com>

I hadn't thought of it that way. That's an interesting possibility, How
would we know?

John, can you deny receiving any NSLs, warrants, court orders, etc.?

Is the warrant canary doing it's Monty Python routine? (It has ceased to
be!)

On Sun, Oct 11, 2015 at 2:57 PM, Shelley <shelley at misanthropia.org> wrote:

> On October 11, 2015 11:44:07 AM Michael Best <themikebest at gmail.com>
> wrote:
>
> >
>> > Has anyone stopped to think that perhaps it was on absolute purpose as a
>> > warning of lack of safety on his servers due to known 'but unable to
>> speak
>> > about’ system compromise? Ie. The same fashion as a warrant canary, or
>> what
>> > have you?
>> > JYA’s stance has always seemed to have been: You’re not safe, please do
>> > not be deluded into believing any systems, statements, or mathematical
>> > systems will always have your back. Perhaps this is just to bring it
>> into
>> > the absolute light for those too dense to grasp this mindset.
>> > The above scenario would also explain his general lack of input on the
>> > situation — I myself have been expecting miles and miles of
>> (interestingly
>> > grotesque almost) prose about the situation.
>> > _benjamin
>> >
>>
>>
> bbrewer has made a good point, actually.  If someone is served a NSL, they
> are gagged - prohibited by law from saying anything about it.  Look at Nick
> from Calyx: after a decade, his gag order has finally been lifted but there
> is still a 90-day period during which the gag remains intact to give the
> feds time to appeal.  It's crazy stuff.
>
> Even if JY did it to "make a point" about all security being illusory BS,
> the log files dropped are old enough that they probably wouldn't cause much
> harm.  The same basic argument used by Wikileaks when they dropped the
> State Dept cables.
>
> -S
>
> If so, then why did he spend a week denying it, calling me a liar, saying
>> the data is fake and accusing it of being disinfo? And why not notify
>> people on the website instead of the occasional tweet about how all logs
>> leak/it's "not the worst"?
>>
>> And if it *was* purposeful, how is *that* okay? If he leaked four months
>> worth of his users' logs and metadata including search terms, *to make a
>> point*?
>>
>>
>>
>> > On Sun, Oct 11, 2015 at 2:02 PM, Shelley <shelley at misanthropia.org>
>> wrote:
>> >
>> > Calling bullshit. Mirimirs right, this makes no sense. And JYA says
>> netsol
>> > won't let him delete the logs but Netsol says logs are disabled by
>> default[
>> >
>> https://www.networksolutions.com/support/how-to-enable-download-the-web-logs/
>> ]
>> > and you have to turn them on.
>> > So how the fuckd this really happen?
>> > I truly don't know.  I don't have any more info than anyone else, I was
>> > just musing about how it could have happened.  Obviously, hearing  JY's
>> > explanation would be the best thing.
>> > Also agree re: the /var/log issue, but I get the impression that the
>> > restored files weren't kept in the normal file tree structure.  Again, I
>> > simply don't know and I'm not trying to be an overt JY apologist - I'm
>> just
>> > saying sometimes, shit happens.  It would help if he would weigh in
>> instead
>> > of having dorks like me positing hypotheticals.
>> > -S
>> >
>> > Mirimir <mirimir at riseup.net>
>> > Are you arguing that users could have found those logs?
>> > I almost can't imagine that. Logs are normally in /var/log/ somewhere,
>> > and I can't imagine making them searchable. And indeed, I can't imagine
>> > how Cryptome archives would have included anything from /var/log/, even
>> > after system restore from backups.
>> > <--SNIP-->
>> > > Should access logs be kept for that long? Absolutely not. From what I>
>> > have read in the email exchange that was posted, the log files were>
>> > included in a NetSol total restore. My guess is that John/Cryptome did>
>> not
>> > intentionally keep these files, and did not realize these files were>
>> > included in the archive.
>> > But that's the thing. Logs should have been in /var/log/. And how would
>> > the "NetSol total restore" have changed that?
>> > > When I do incremental backups or updates on my own systems, I don't>
>> > usually go back and check the integrity of files I've already archived>
>> in
>> > my closed system. I can see where this could be an honest mistake> that
>> has
>> > gotten blown way out of proportion. It's a good lesson to be> more
>> aware of
>> > these types of glitches.
>> > I still don't get how logs would have ended up in archives. Maybe JYA
>> > prepared a special set of archives for a collaborator. Maybe for someone
>> > helping him to understand what had happened. And then maybe he forgot
>> > about doing that. Hard to say.
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> > On October 11, 2015 10:14:15 AM "Dr. J Feinstein" <
>> drjfeinstein at mail.com>
>> > wrote:
>> >
>> >> Resend–HTML email scrubbed
>> >>
>> >
>> >>
>>
>
>
>
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From coderman at gmail.com  Sun Oct 11 15:31:19 2015
From: coderman at gmail.com (coderman)
Date: Sun, 11 Oct 2015 15:31:19 -0700
Subject: WHY make a fake GCHQ slide?
In-Reply-To: <CANFTA0-DN1XRUNc=xhEw3X2r=6MsOn30f-uobhkq98zUJPSqkA@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CANFTA0-DN1XRUNc=xhEw3X2r=6MsOn30f-uobhkq98zUJPSqkA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAJVRA1SZYodFH+ESF8zekqa+3Y9LjzWn3YHTwtnfCL8kbJK=Rw@mail.gmail.com>

On 10/10/15, Michael Best <themikebest at gmail.com> wrote:
> Here's my preliminary list of potential reasons for faking a GCHQ
> slide...

Michael one additional reason is amusement.
 for example, QUANTUM SQUIRREL [0] which is fuckin' lol


best regards,
 and chortle onward!


0. "QUANTUM SQUIRREL SLIDE"
 - https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/3/3a/QUANTUMSQUIRREL.jpg/220px-QUANTUMSQUIRREL.jpg
 [ https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tailored_Access_Operations ]




From coderman at gmail.com  Sun Oct 11 15:37:05 2015
From: coderman at gmail.com (coderman)
Date: Sun, 11 Oct 2015 15:37:05 -0700
Subject: [cryptome] Re: NatSecGeek
In-Reply-To: <CANFTA08+QbS0ri+UTfkhjSRgTZ-HJ-e76KEJbSdQU45bZBeCgQ@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CANFTA0-qPf1VhateDGgbWRuxTrua4H7fqVXJVGsg+Upx-WwfGw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAJVRA1Tujm68F6cg_o_JjjHtSC9Wxd86iEGSSeCxYW2=8xkyBQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <CANFTA0-hj_v0ezi-1qvr8X3ELmCTpzyUyTnADe-2QKQO441vKA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAGRDzQV3ps1jFwA9H2ZDL4RnMeZR7cj44Fo+U34YESonVVs-xw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CANFTA09n99=-pqgt-VDf6V5BFOk7EWGdyktaiKvJpaC4JL98cw@mail.gmail.com>
 <20151010135231.GD2694@sivokote.iziade.m$>
 <CANFTA0_ar1V2csWrdKJGPote-n24cWvO9sfs7x+B_-jzkp8Qfw@mail.gmail.com>
 <20151010140904.GE2694@sivokote.iziade.m$>
 <CANFTA09QXePNmaqoWW-XMD_fFusAq65EMewzkMsYUjnZoSeJhA@mail.gmail.com>
 <20151010141819.GF2694@sivokote.iziade.m$>
 <CANFTA08+QbS0ri+UTfkhjSRgTZ-HJ-e76KEJbSdQU45bZBeCgQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAJVRA1TM4j14KX1zDiiSpEkDaB2TWFttcrd+Fix+2p0pRUJbfw@mail.gmail.com>

On 10/10/15, Michael Best <themikebest at gmail.com> wrote:
> Yep...

Michael the first rule of cypherpunks is to admit nothing. especially
use of social media ;)




From coderman at gmail.com  Sun Oct 11 15:45:11 2015
From: coderman at gmail.com (coderman)
Date: Sun, 11 Oct 2015 15:45:11 -0700
Subject: why we need more cryptome mirrors, in all corners
Message-ID: <CAJVRA1QMqMQL8+At127bHNyX21jTwvdC1_O0shmisRtSE+Fo4g@mail.gmail.com>

On 10/10/15, Shelley <shelley at misanthropia.org> wrote:
> ...
> The Cryptome archives *are* publicly accessible.  John limits bots and
> leechers to a certain number of files per day (as is his right, he is
> paying for the bandwidth), approx 100 iirc, but anyone who can use search
> strings can find anything on the site.


it is exceptionally difficult, short of ordering physical duplicates,
to obtain a significant portion of cryptome archive from cryptome.org.

part of this is inherent abuse - any mirror gets serious algorithmic
beatings - akin to HackingTeam mirrors perhaps, not counting the
mindless cloud VM bot walkers, annoying enough.  even the hidden
service only mirrors got offensive proddings. remember, some of
cryptome-opponents are relying on obscurity - thwarted every time some
makes a mirror...

for this, i am quite grateful to see the archive.org natsec section
expanded with cryptome mirror!
https://archive.org/details/nationalsecurityarchive

thanks to all involved (esp. you, Michael :)


best regards,




From coderman at gmail.com  Sun Oct 11 15:50:38 2015
From: coderman at gmail.com (coderman)
Date: Sun, 11 Oct 2015 15:50:38 -0700
Subject: Ubiquitous AWStats Not the Worst
In-Reply-To: <2775498.4xAciBQf5x@lapuntu>
References: <E1ZlJL0-0001gu-NF@elasmtp-dupuy.atl.sa.earthlink.net>
 <2775498.4xAciBQf5x@lapuntu>
Message-ID: <CAJVRA1Sxb_etS=s5SVLyoa2nzxYNsM6X4ptLLKUQsBejGgpwpA@mail.gmail.com>

On 10/11/15, rysiek <rysiek at hackerspace.pl> wrote:
> ...
> And that makes *selling* this data OK how, exactly?

selling the data allows cryptome to further distribute the data.

you may also mainline BTC directly into JYA wallet.
 [ 1P11b3Xkgagzex3fYusVcJ3ZTVsNwwnrBZ ]

i tried to interest JYA in cryptome branded sativa, indica, and hybrid
concentrates and vaporizers, alas, there are jurisdictional concerns.
this too, would allow more distribution of the data.

let me know when i have surpassed your required ethical threshold for action.
 i will continue, as needed...


best regards,




From coderman at gmail.com  Sun Oct 11 15:53:55 2015
From: coderman at gmail.com (coderman)
Date: Sun, 11 Oct 2015 15:53:55 -0700
Subject: Why cryptome sold web logs to their paying customers? or did they
 ... !!! [ plot twist ]
Message-ID: <CAJVRA1R+UTfCGe+P7okLOj5HZUu7tmpOeSNKtMB2QEeYe0Vc+g@mail.gmail.com>

On 10/11/15, Dr. J Feinstein <drjfeinstein at mail.com> wrote
> So how the fuckd this really happen?

your error is assuming there are only two parties in this equation:
  JYA and netsol.

your secondary fallacy involves netsol as solitary, singular entity of
one action and awareness.

how'd this not get fucked harder, is the question. (or did it? :)


best regards,




From themikebest at gmail.com  Sun Oct 11 13:04:40 2015
From: themikebest at gmail.com (Michael Best)
Date: Sun, 11 Oct 2015 16:04:40 -0400
Subject: [cryptome] Re: Why cryptome sold web logs to their paying
 customers?
In-Reply-To: <CANFTA09yPPnctXkBcuvNORm2+0=7Y+fRU4c7rm0L4id7xU-Vog@mail.gmail.com>
References: <trinity-731b0262-b3be-4de0-8d9f-731ae2425bf0-1444583318602@3capp-mailcom-lxa16>
 <20151011180239.EA60FC00014@frontend1.nyi.internal>
 <CANFTA09yPPnctXkBcuvNORm2+0=7Y+fRU4c7rm0L4id7xU-Vog@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CANFTA0-psjyujdasCnxhfQFnd5-UOr+LxD5MgRV2n+R-YiT2Lw@mail.gmail.com>

>
> Razer Rayzer at riseup.net
> Sun Oct 11 15:59:29 EDT 2015 10/11/2015 11:43 AM, Michael Best wrote:
> > If so, then why did he spend a week denying it, calling me a liar,
> > saying the data is fake and accusing it of being disinfo?
> Because unlike Farcebook twitter Google Apple and all the others who
> 'squealed like a pig' after Snowden's leaks, a FISA court would put JYA
> so deep in a hole no one would ever hear of his existence again. You're
> NOT ALLOWED TO EVEN MENTION that the 'suits' had been in contact, no
> less compromised your system...
> RR


That would explain keeping silent, *NOT* making up lies about me and saying
the data is fake.


On Sun, Oct 11, 2015 at 2:43 PM, Michael Best <themikebest at gmail.com> wrote:

> Has anyone stopped to think that perhaps it was on absolute purpose as a
>> warning of lack of safety on his servers due to known 'but unable to speak
>> about’ system compromise? Ie. The same fashion as a warrant canary, or what
>> have you?
>> JYA’s stance has always seemed to have been: You’re not safe, please do
>> not be deluded into believing any systems, statements, or mathematical
>> systems will always have your back. Perhaps this is just to bring it into
>> the absolute light for those too dense to grasp this mindset.
>> The above scenario would also explain his general lack of input on the
>> situation — I myself have been expecting miles and miles of (interestingly
>> grotesque almost) prose about the situation.
>> _benjamin
>>
>
> If so, then why did he spend a week denying it, calling me a liar, saying
> the data is fake and accusing it of being disinfo? And why not notify
> people on the website instead of the occasional tweet about how all logs
> leak/it's "not the worst"?
>
> And if it *was* purposeful, how is *that* okay? If he leaked four months
> worth of his users' logs and metadata including search terms, *to make a
> point*?
>
>
>> On Sun, Oct 11, 2015 at 2:02 PM, Shelley <shelley at misanthropia.org>
>> wrote:
>>
>> Calling bullshit. Mirimirs right, this makes no sense. And JYA says
>> netsol won't let him delete the logs but Netsol says logs are disabled by
>> default[
>> https://www.networksolutions.com/support/how-to-enable-download-the-web-logs/]
>> and you have to turn them on.
>> So how the fuckd this really happen?
>> I truly don't know.  I don't have any more info than anyone else, I was
>> just musing about how it could have happened.  Obviously, hearing  JY's
>> explanation would be the best thing.
>> Also agree re: the /var/log issue, but I get the impression that the
>> restored files weren't kept in the normal file tree structure.  Again, I
>> simply don't know and I'm not trying to be an overt JY apologist - I'm just
>> saying sometimes, shit happens.  It would help if he would weigh in instead
>> of having dorks like me positing hypotheticals.
>> -S
>>
>> Mirimir <mirimir at riseup.net>
>> Are you arguing that users could have found those logs?
>> I almost can't imagine that. Logs are normally in /var/log/ somewhere,
>> and I can't imagine making them searchable. And indeed, I can't imagine
>> how Cryptome archives would have included anything from /var/log/, even
>> after system restore from backups.
>> <--SNIP-->
>> > Should access logs be kept for that long? Absolutely not. From what I>
>> have read in the email exchange that was posted, the log files were>
>> included in a NetSol total restore. My guess is that John/Cryptome did> not
>> intentionally keep these files, and did not realize these files were>
>> included in the archive.
>> But that's the thing. Logs should have been in /var/log/. And how would
>> the "NetSol total restore" have changed that?
>> > When I do incremental backups or updates on my own systems, I don't>
>> usually go back and check the integrity of files I've already archived> in
>> my closed system. I can see where this could be an honest mistake> that has
>> gotten blown way out of proportion. It's a good lesson to be> more aware of
>> these types of glitches.
>> I still don't get how logs would have ended up in archives. Maybe JYA
>> prepared a special set of archives for a collaborator. Maybe for someone
>> helping him to understand what had happened. And then maybe he forgot
>> about doing that. Hard to say.
>>
>>
>>
>> On October 11, 2015 10:14:15 AM "Dr. J Feinstein" <drjfeinstein at mail.com>
>> wrote:
>>
>>> Resend–HTML email scrubbed
>>>
>>
>>>
>
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From coderman at gmail.com  Sun Oct 11 16:13:14 2015
From: coderman at gmail.com (coderman)
Date: Sun, 11 Oct 2015 16:13:14 -0700
Subject: Why cryptome sold web logs to their paying customers?
In-Reply-To: <trinity-36cf8f17-4a59-44ec-b1b1-5515aa09c682-1444604059313@3capp-mailcom-lxa15>
References: <trinity-731b0262-b3be-4de0-8d9f-731ae2425bf0-1444583318602@3capp-mailcom-lxa16>
 <1444598030.829859.407317641.4ED309A5@webmail.messagingengine.com>
 <trinity-b3ad17af-4e1b-4f86-9947-45853cfd1f4c-1444598654915@3capp-mailcom-lxa08>
 <CAKtE3zexn9=fi1v_-7r0snYT+_+mG=ZZazfbkwoQaOFsYBat=A@mail.gmail.com>
 <trinity-36cf8f17-4a59-44ec-b1b1-5515aa09c682-1444604059313@3capp-mailcom-lxa15>
Message-ID: <CAJVRA1SR0tCAgRvdhGBSXCoUmpQv=U0BtY88ouezifPJOk-UAQ@mail.gmail.com>

On 10/11/15, Dr. J Feinstein <drjfeinstein at mail.com> wrote:
>
> So why does Netsol contradict JYA about the log settings?

ask netsol about their TLS competence, as well.  :P


[ many trying to get JYA to run a dedicated server someplace safe, but
that's cRaZy unless you're good at it... ]


best regards,




From coderman at gmail.com  Sun Oct 11 16:18:42 2015
From: coderman at gmail.com (coderman)
Date: Sun, 11 Oct 2015 16:18:42 -0700
Subject: Nominee officers and directors (was: Why cryptome sold web
 logs...)
In-Reply-To: <N1B-gdbhE0RlY3@Safe-mail.net>
References: <N1B-gdbhE0RlY3@Safe-mail.net>
Message-ID: <CAJVRA1S2NphRg+sJRHCdyCmVEvEMR=9D59JFA9H+pRW3py3bLg@mail.gmail.com>

On 10/11/15, wirelesswarrior at safe-mail.net
<wirelesswarrior at safe-mail.net> wrote:
> Despite almost two decades of cypherpunk activity I cannot fathom why U.S.
> residents operate sites clearly in the cross-hairs of intel agencies.

there is a specific gambit or protection as US citizen operating a
personal service with personal resources and not in any formal or
for-profit manner.

in some circumstances, against some adversaries, this provides the
best "signal of interest" to respond to, although as you state:
absolute protection is near impossible in a moment, let alone
maintained...


it works great... until it doesn't?
  [ ah well, grarpamp said we were playing for keeps! *grin* ]




From bbrewer at littledystopia.net  Sun Oct 11 13:19:54 2015
From: bbrewer at littledystopia.net (bbrewer)
Date: Sun, 11 Oct 2015 16:19:54 -0400
Subject: [cryptome] Re: Why cryptome sold web logs to their paying
 customers?
In-Reply-To: <CANFTA0-psjyujdasCnxhfQFnd5-UOr+LxD5MgRV2n+R-YiT2Lw@mail.gmail.com>
References: <trinity-731b0262-b3be-4de0-8d9f-731ae2425bf0-1444583318602@3capp-mailcom-lxa16>
 <20151011180239.EA60FC00014@frontend1.nyi.internal>
 <CANFTA09yPPnctXkBcuvNORm2+0=7Y+fRU4c7rm0L4id7xU-Vog@mail.gmail.com>
 <CANFTA0-psjyujdasCnxhfQFnd5-UOr+LxD5MgRV2n+R-YiT2Lw@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <8C4170F3-B9A5-4EB6-A6DB-7BE6701DD560@littledystopia.net>


> On Oct 11, 2015, at 4:04 PM, Michael Best <themikebest at gmail.com> wrote:
> 
> 
> That would explain keeping silent, NOT making up lies about me and saying the data is fake. 
> 

Perhaps he knew that you would keep the ‘conversation’ raging, therefore bringing it more ‘into the light’ than silence itself would prompt. Since you’ve been ‘on the case’, cypherpunks is 90% this subject matter, and 10% other cruft.

Again, perhaps that was the intended purpose.


Ie, in a different thread about the same subject (after he poked and prodded you earlier in said thread…)

> 
> On Oct 8, 2015, at 6:23 AM, John Young <jya at pipeline.com> wrote:
> 
> We've encouraged Best to continue doing what he is doing after using Cryptome
> as a platform, counsel and source of information. He did set up a website, did
> mirror the Cryptome archives, did do further research and announce it widely
> and has picked a fight with several parties, complained of mistreatment,
> censorship, abuse, exposed collateral innocent (ha!) parties.
> 
> We also told Best log files are the dirtiest secret of the Internet, none are
> secure, none private, none singular, admins and websites lie about using
> them, exploiting them, deleting them, needing them, stealing them, accusing
> about them, inflating them, rigging them. They pay for the Net, thus not ever
> going away or kept secure.
> 
> So Best is going in the tried and true direction, many others have staggered.
> And if determined he will avoid depending on anybody for support. More power
> to the asshole, welcome to the world of disputatious assholes, cypherpunks,
> the Internet, the planet.
> 
> Brave new growth to kill off the cowardly old.
> 
> Praise and support controls, don't seek it or succumb to it. Enjoy fucking
> yourself, Best, to entertain audiences. Cheers and keep at it.

I don’t know; neither do you. Selling old ass log files on purpose isn’t full of much sense if you’re constraining yourself into thinking ‘inside the box’. JYA doesn’t seem very in the box to me, but hey…

Cheers,
-benjamin




From themikebest at gmail.com  Sun Oct 11 13:22:21 2015
From: themikebest at gmail.com (Michael Best)
Date: Sun, 11 Oct 2015 16:22:21 -0400
Subject: [cryptome] Re: Why cryptome sold web logs to their paying
 customers?
In-Reply-To: <8C4170F3-B9A5-4EB6-A6DB-7BE6701DD560@littledystopia.net>
References: <trinity-731b0262-b3be-4de0-8d9f-731ae2425bf0-1444583318602@3capp-mailcom-lxa16>
 <20151011180239.EA60FC00014@frontend1.nyi.internal>
 <CANFTA09yPPnctXkBcuvNORm2+0=7Y+fRU4c7rm0L4id7xU-Vog@mail.gmail.com>
 <CANFTA0-psjyujdasCnxhfQFnd5-UOr+LxD5MgRV2n+R-YiT2Lw@mail.gmail.com>
 <8C4170F3-B9A5-4EB6-A6DB-7BE6701DD560@littledystopia.net>
Message-ID: <CANFTA0_ru=Fj0WJXqCF+dFDHCa_fLFo3PnsEqy3m=KDxQZFHpg@mail.gmail.com>

Anyway to rule this out other than hearing it from John? How long before we
begin to seriously consider it or assume it?

And if there was a NSL, why not shut down? Why put users at ongoing risk??

On Sun, Oct 11, 2015 at 4:19 PM, bbrewer <bbrewer at littledystopia.net> wrote:

>
> > On Oct 11, 2015, at 4:04 PM, Michael Best <themikebest at gmail.com> wrote:
> >
> >
> > That would explain keeping silent, NOT making up lies about me and
> saying the data is fake.
> >
>
> Perhaps he knew that you would keep the ‘conversation’ raging, therefore
> bringing it more ‘into the light’ than silence itself would prompt. Since
> you’ve been ‘on the case’, cypherpunks is 90% this subject matter, and 10%
> other cruft.
>
> Again, perhaps that was the intended purpose.
>
>
> Ie, in a different thread about the same subject (after he poked and
> prodded you earlier in said thread…)
>
> >
> > On Oct 8, 2015, at 6:23 AM, John Young <jya at pipeline.com> wrote:
> >
> > We've encouraged Best to continue doing what he is doing after using
> Cryptome
> > as a platform, counsel and source of information. He did set up a
> website, did
> > mirror the Cryptome archives, did do further research and announce it
> widely
> > and has picked a fight with several parties, complained of mistreatment,
> > censorship, abuse, exposed collateral innocent (ha!) parties.
> >
> > We also told Best log files are the dirtiest secret of the Internet,
> none are
> > secure, none private, none singular, admins and websites lie about using
> > them, exploiting them, deleting them, needing them, stealing them,
> accusing
> > about them, inflating them, rigging them. They pay for the Net, thus not
> ever
> > going away or kept secure.
> >
> > So Best is going in the tried and true direction, many others have
> staggered.
> > And if determined he will avoid depending on anybody for support. More
> power
> > to the asshole, welcome to the world of disputatious assholes,
> cypherpunks,
> > the Internet, the planet.
> >
> > Brave new growth to kill off the cowardly old.
> >
> > Praise and support controls, don't seek it or succumb to it. Enjoy
> fucking
> > yourself, Best, to entertain audiences. Cheers and keep at it.
>
> I don’t know; neither do you. Selling old ass log files on purpose isn’t
> full of much sense if you’re constraining yourself into thinking ‘inside
> the box’. JYA doesn’t seem very in the box to me, but hey…
>
> Cheers,
> -benjamin
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From shelley at misanthropia.org  Sun Oct 11 16:22:32 2015
From: shelley at misanthropia.org (Shelley)
Date: Sun, 11 Oct 2015 16:22:32 -0700
Subject: [cryptome] Re: NatSecGeek
In-Reply-To: <CAJVRA1TM4j14KX1zDiiSpEkDaB2TWFttcrd+Fix+2p0pRUJbfw@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CANFTA0-qPf1VhateDGgbWRuxTrua4H7fqVXJVGsg+Upx-WwfGw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAJVRA1Tujm68F6cg_o_JjjHtSC9Wxd86iEGSSeCxYW2=8xkyBQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <CANFTA0-hj_v0ezi-1qvr8X3ELmCTpzyUyTnADe-2QKQO441vKA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAGRDzQV3ps1jFwA9H2ZDL4RnMeZR7cj44Fo+U34YESonVVs-xw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CANFTA09n99=-pqgt-VDf6V5BFOk7EWGdyktaiKvJpaC4JL98cw@mail.gmail.com>
 <20151010135231.GD2694@sivokote.iziade.m$>
 <CANFTA0_ar1V2csWrdKJGPote-n24cWvO9sfs7x+B_-jzkp8Qfw@mail.gmail.com>
 <20151010140904.GE2694@sivokote.iziade.m$>
 <CANFTA09QXePNmaqoWW-XMD_fFusAq65EMewzkMsYUjnZoSeJhA@mail.gmail.com>
 <20151010141819.GF2694@sivokote.iziade.m$>
 <CANFTA08+QbS0ri+UTfkhjSRgTZ-HJ-e76KEJbSdQU45bZBeCgQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAJVRA1TM4j14KX1zDiiSpEkDaB2TWFttcrd+Fix+2p0pRUJbfw@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <20151011232216.A97DEC00016@frontend1.nyi.internal>

On October 11, 2015 3:42:14 PM coderman <coderman at gmail.com> wrote:

> On 10/10/15, Michael Best <themikebest at gmail.com> wrote:
> > Yep...
>
> Michael the first rule of cypherpunks is to admit nothing. especially
> use of social media ;)

You all already know I don't use Twatter, Failbook et al (Gord knows I 
bitch about them enough), but I do have one or two idiotbox indulgences and 
one happens to be airing tonight.

So may I say, in the most respectful way possible: Go JTrig yourselves - 
I'm out for the night, bitches! ;)

-Shelley





From bbrewer at littledystopia.net  Sun Oct 11 13:30:00 2015
From: bbrewer at littledystopia.net (bbrewer)
Date: Sun, 11 Oct 2015 16:30:00 -0400
Subject: [cryptome] Re: Why cryptome sold web logs to their paying
 customers?
In-Reply-To: <CANFTA0_ru=Fj0WJXqCF+dFDHCa_fLFo3PnsEqy3m=KDxQZFHpg@mail.gmail.com>
References: <trinity-731b0262-b3be-4de0-8d9f-731ae2425bf0-1444583318602@3capp-mailcom-lxa16>
 <20151011180239.EA60FC00014@frontend1.nyi.internal>
 <CANFTA09yPPnctXkBcuvNORm2+0=7Y+fRU4c7rm0L4id7xU-Vog@mail.gmail.com>
 <CANFTA0-psjyujdasCnxhfQFnd5-UOr+LxD5MgRV2n+R-YiT2Lw@mail.gmail.com>
 <8C4170F3-B9A5-4EB6-A6DB-7BE6701DD560@littledystopia.net>
 <CANFTA0_ru=Fj0WJXqCF+dFDHCa_fLFo3PnsEqy3m=KDxQZFHpg@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <29FDC0FF-712A-4048-AA64-67845A7CDECA@littledystopia.net>


> On Oct 11, 2015, at 4:22 PM, Michael Best <themikebest at gmail.com> wrote:
> 
> Anyway to rule this out other than hearing it from John? How long before we begin to seriously consider it or assume it? 
> 
> And if there was a NSL, why not shut down? Why put users at ongoing risk?? 


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lavabit

"Levison said that he could be arrested for closing the site instead of releasing the information, and it was reported that the federal prosecutor's office had sent Levison's lawyer an e-mail to that effect.”

I’m just blabbering on suppositions here, but I wouldn’t be surprised by… anything.

-benjamin




From jya at pipeline.com  Sun Oct 11 14:03:37 2015
From: jya at pipeline.com (John Young)
Date: Sun, 11 Oct 2015 17:03:37 -0400
Subject: [cryptome] Re: Why cryptome sold web logs to their paying
 customers?
In-Reply-To: <20151011204851.D5DBAC00016@frontend1.nyi.internal>
References: <trinity-731b0262-b3be-4de0-8d9f-731ae2425bf0-1444583318602@3capp-mailcom-lxa16>
 <20151011180239.EA60FC00014@frontend1.nyi.internal>
 <CANFTA09yPPnctXkBcuvNORm2+0=7Y+fRU4c7rm0L4id7xU-Vog@mail.gmail.com>
 <CANFTA0-psjyujdasCnxhfQFnd5-UOr+LxD5MgRV2n+R-YiT2Lw@mail.gmail.com>
 <8C4170F3-B9A5-4EB6-A6DB-7BE6701DD560@littledystopia.net>
 <CANFTA0_ru=Fj0WJXqCF+dFDHCa_fLFo3PnsEqy3m=KDxQZFHpg@mail.gmail.com>
 <29FDC0FF-712A-4048-AA64-67845A7CDECA@littledystopia.net>
 <20151011204851.D5DBAC00016@frontend1.nyi.internal>
Message-ID: <E1ZlNmH-0000VV-40@elasmtp-curtail.atl.sa.earthlink.net>

https://cryptome.org/2012/07/gent-forum-spies.htm

25 February 2014. Related: GCHQ Full-Spectrum Cyber Effects:

<http://cryptome.org/2014/02/gchq-cyber-effects.pdf>http://cryptome.org/2014/02/gchq-cyber-effects.pdf 


24 February 2014. Related: GCHQ Online Deception:

<http://cryptome.org/2014/02/gchq-online-deception.pdf>http://cryptome.org/2014/02/gchq-online-deception.pdf 


GCHQ DISRUPTION Operational Playbook:

<http://cryptome.org/2014/02/gchq-disruption.pdf>http://cryptome.org/2014/02/gchq-disruption.pdf 


29 January 2014. Related: GCHQ Squeaky Dolphin Psychological Operations:

<http://cryptome.org/2014/01/gchq-squeaky-dolphin.pdf>http://cryptome.org/2014/01/gchq-squeaky-dolphin.pdf 
(18MB)

4 March 2012. Precursor to this sabotage, OSS Sabotage of Organizations:

<http://svn.cacert.org/CAcert/CAcert_Inc/Board/oss/oss_sabotage.html>http://svn.cacert.org/CAcert/CAcert_Inc/Board/oss/oss_sabotage.html 



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From themikebest at gmail.com  Sun Oct 11 14:18:33 2015
From: themikebest at gmail.com (Michael Best)
Date: Sun, 11 Oct 2015 17:18:33 -0400
Subject: [cryptome] Re: Why cryptome sold web logs to their paying
 customers?
In-Reply-To: <E1ZlNmH-0000VV-40@elasmtp-curtail.atl.sa.earthlink.net>
References: <trinity-731b0262-b3be-4de0-8d9f-731ae2425bf0-1444583318602@3capp-mailcom-lxa16>
 <20151011180239.EA60FC00014@frontend1.nyi.internal>
 <CANFTA09yPPnctXkBcuvNORm2+0=7Y+fRU4c7rm0L4id7xU-Vog@mail.gmail.com>
 <CANFTA0-psjyujdasCnxhfQFnd5-UOr+LxD5MgRV2n+R-YiT2Lw@mail.gmail.com>
 <8C4170F3-B9A5-4EB6-A6DB-7BE6701DD560@littledystopia.net>
 <CANFTA0_ru=Fj0WJXqCF+dFDHCa_fLFo3PnsEqy3m=KDxQZFHpg@mail.gmail.com>
 <29FDC0FF-712A-4048-AA64-67845A7CDECA@littledystopia.net>
 <20151011204851.D5DBAC00016@frontend1.nyi.internal>
 <E1ZlNmH-0000VV-40@elasmtp-curtail.atl.sa.earthlink.net>
Message-ID: <CANFTA0-jX-L8c-u+kusdY_D6YzDNwtRVXgv=pFoOamNSgXwVTQ@mail.gmail.com>

I'm not sure what the links are meant to imply. That the log leak was a
disruption effort by the GCHQ that was planted when NetSol restored the
site?

On Sun, Oct 11, 2015 at 5:03 PM, John Young <jya at pipeline.com> wrote:

> https://cryptome.org/2012/07/gent-forum-spies.htm
>
> 25 February 2014. Related: GCHQ Full-Spectrum Cyber Effects:
>
> http://cryptome.org/2014/02/gchq-cyber-effects.pdf
>
> 24 February 2014. Related: GCHQ Online Deception:
>
> http://cryptome.org/2014/02/gchq-online-deception.pdf
>
> GCHQ DISRUPTION Operational Playbook:
>
> http://cryptome.org/2014/02/gchq-disruption.pdf
>
> 29 January 2014. Related: GCHQ Squeaky Dolphin Psychological Operations:
>
> http://cryptome.org/2014/01/gchq-squeaky-dolphin.pdf (18MB)
>
> 4 March 2012. Precursor to this sabotage, OSS Sabotage of Organizations:
>
> http://svn.cacert.org/CAcert/CAcert_Inc/Board/oss/oss_sabotage.html
>
>
>
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From shelley at misanthropia.org  Sun Oct 11 17:21:44 2015
From: shelley at misanthropia.org (Shelley)
Date: Sun, 11 Oct 2015 17:21:44 -0700
Subject: How to minimize one's damage in case the usa kicks the bucket?
In-Reply-To: <561AF3A2.5030206@riseup.net>
References: <20151005085119.GA2489@sivokote.iziade.m$>
 <561AF3A2.5030206@riseup.net>
Message-ID: <20151012002127.697C3C0001E@frontend1.nyi.internal>

On October 11, 2015 4:47:21 PM Douglas Lucas <dal at riseup.net> wrote:

> Reviving this thread. Where's the altruism in "how to minimize one's
> damage"? Why's the model here for resisting economic oppression a
> survivalist hiding in an encrypted bunker, rather than the people of
> Burkina Faso using sticks and rocks (not cryptography) to force
> oligarchs out of their country? In Mexico they were recently burning
> polling stations, but we were discussing hoarding Bitcoin to ensure our
> self-interest? Where's the idealism in such selfishness?

Not everyone believes that hoarding btc and hiding out in a cabin loaded 
for bear is the way to go.

Let me put it another way:  we are *long* past the torches and pitchforks 
stage in this country.  We can't just storm the Capitol and force the bums 
out anymore.  It's a sad fact that the 2nd Amendment enthusiasts are just 
going to have to come to terms with, or get droned trying.

For every Edward Snowden and Chelsea Manning, there are hundreds more we 
don't know about.  People on the inside who have no intention of publishing 
data and doing interviews or shaming officials; they are going to help take 
it down the only way it is still possible to do so.  They just don't 
broadcast what they're doing on public lists.

Also, some people view altruism as a weakness - and some believe it's not 
possible to act in an altruistic manner without expecting anything in 
return.  Those people probably live very empty lives.

That's my first and last comment in this thread (and now I'm really off to 
go watch Walkers bite it.)


-S



>
> On 10/05/2015 03:51 AM, Georgi Guninski wrote:
> > The financial situation in the usa is quite grave.
> >
> > Assume very severe financial crisis hits the usa relatively soon causing
> > hyperinflation there and possibly in other countries.
> >
> > I am interested:  How to minimize one's damage in this situation?
> >
> > Some suspicions: Banks/exchanges are known Ponzi schemes, so how much
> > the banking system will remain intact is unclear to me.
> >
> > Some possibilities
> > real estate outside usa
> > gold (is gold certificate secure enough?)
> > bitcoins (some people got burnt, security of bitcoins not clear to me)
> > ???
> >
> > Please post political rants in other thread.
> >





From mirimir at riseup.net  Sun Oct 11 16:23:31 2015
From: mirimir at riseup.net (Mirimir)
Date: Sun, 11 Oct 2015 17:23:31 -0600
Subject: Why cryptome sold web logs to their paying customers?
In-Reply-To: <1444598030.829859.407317641.4ED309A5@webmail.messagingengine.com>
References: <trinity-731b0262-b3be-4de0-8d9f-731ae2425bf0-1444583318602@3capp-mailcom-lxa16>
 <1444598030.829859.407317641.4ED309A5@webmail.messagingengine.com>
Message-ID: <561AEF73.5070309@riseup.net>

On 10/11/2015 03:13 PM, Alfie John wrote:
> On Mon, Oct 12, 2015, at 04:08 AM, Dr. J Feinstein wrote:
>> Resend–HTML email scrubbed
>>
>> Calling bullshit. Mirimirs right, this makes no sense. And JYA says
>> netsol won't let him delete the logs but Netsol says logs are disabled
>> by default[
>> https://www.networksolutions.com/support/how-to-enable-download-the-web-logs/]
>> and you have to turn them on.
>>
>> So how the fuckd this really happen?
>>
>> Mirimir <mirimir at riseup.net> Are you arguing that users could have
>> found those logs?
>>
>> I almost can't imagine that. Logs are normally in /var/log/ somewhere,
>> and I can't imagine making them searchable. And indeed, I can't
>> imagine how Cryptome archives would have included anything from
>> /var/log/, even after system restore from backups.
>>
>> <--SNIP-->
>>
>>> Should access logs be kept for that long? Absolutely not. From what
>>> I> have read in the email exchange that was posted, the log files
>>> were> included in a NetSol total restore. My guess is that
>>> John/Cryptome did> not intentionally keep these files, and did not
>>> realize these files were> included in the archive.
>> But that's the thing. Logs should have been in /var/log/. And how
>> would the "NetSol total restore" have changed that?
> 
> Not necessarily...
> 
> Logs in /var/log is where they should be by default, but if the box is
> on a shared hosting account, then things are completely different. For
> instance, Bluehost charges $3.95/month, which gets you a home directory
> on a box shared with hundreds of other users. In your home directory,
> you get something like (from memory, which was a long, long time ago):
> 
>   ~/
>   ~/public_www/
>   ~/public_www/html/
>   ~/public_www/access_log
>   ~/public_www/error_log
> 
> So as you can see, the user does have permissions to access logs, but
> are kept in the user's _home_ directory. Now you can see why this could
> have mistakenly been distributed:
> 
>   tar zcf cryptome-backup.tar.gz ~/
> 
> The backup would have also slurped in all the logs. There was no malice,
> just an easy mistake that everyone here could have make given the same
> circumstances.
> 
> Alfie

I would not have expected Cryptome to be on shared hosting ;) But yes,
that would explain it.




From bascule at gmail.com  Sun Oct 11 17:33:56 2015
From: bascule at gmail.com (Tony Arcieri)
Date: Sun, 11 Oct 2015 17:33:56 -0700
Subject: Why cryptome sold web logs to their paying customers?
In-Reply-To: <trinity-b02ae0ca-cf2b-4a45-92a1-0e62c13073c1-1444582943216@3capp-mailcom-lxa16>
References: <trinity-b02ae0ca-cf2b-4a45-92a1-0e62c13073c1-1444582943216@3capp-mailcom-lxa16>
Message-ID: <CAHOTMVL5pN-YrUu11dYAH0zTqZPSFrLsoGjwj-Oix65MSNFriw@mail.gmail.com>

Cryptome is run by a crank who refuses to use HTTPS and thinks it's better
to just let all the passive observers see completely what is being read by
anyone who accesses Cryptome. If you ask him why, you'll get a deluge of
crazy.

I think the role of Cryptome would be better served by someone who actually
wants to use cryptography to secure content delivery. Call me crazy...

Cue claims i've been deluded by the CA cabal or don't understand SSL/TLS
attacks. I don't care. Fuck your plaintext

On Sunday, October 11, 2015, Dr. J Feinstein <drjfeinstein at mail.com> wrote:

> Calling bullshit. Mirimirs right, explanation makes no sense. And JYA says netsol won't let him delete the logs but Netsol says logs are disabled by default <https://www.networksolutions.com/support/how-to-enable-download-the-web-logs/> and you have to turn them on.
>
> So how the fuckd this really happen?
>
> Mirimir <mirimir at riseup.net <javascript:_e(%7B%7D,'cvml','mirimir at riseup.net');>>
> Are you arguing that users could have found those logs?
>
> I almost can't imagine that. Logs are normally in /var/log/ somewhere,
> and I can't imagine making them searchable. And indeed, I can't imagine
> how Cryptome archives would have included anything from /var/log/, even
> after system restore from backups.
>
> <--SNIP-->
>
> >* Should access logs be kept for that long?  Absolutely not.  From what I
> *>* have read in the email exchange that was posted, the log files were
> *>* included in a NetSol total restore.  My guess is that John/Cryptome did
> *>* not intentionally keep these files, and did not realize these files were
> *>* included in the archive.
> *
> But that's the thing. Logs should have been in /var/log/. And how would
> the "NetSol total restore" have changed that?
>
> >* When I do incremental backups or updates on my own systems, I don't
> *>* usually go back and check the integrity of files I've already archived
> *>* in my closed system.  I can see where this could be an honest mistake
> *>* that has gotten blown way out of proportion.  It's a good lesson to be
> *>* more aware of these types of glitches.
> *
> I still don't get how logs would have ended up in archives. Maybe JYA
> prepared a special set of archives for a collaborator. Maybe for someone
> helping him to understand what had happened. And then maybe he forgot
> about doing that. Hard to say.
>
>

-- 
Tony Arcieri
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From coderman at gmail.com  Sun Oct 11 17:53:29 2015
From: coderman at gmail.com (coderman)
Date: Sun, 11 Oct 2015 17:53:29 -0700
Subject: Why cryptome sold web logs to their paying customers?
In-Reply-To: <CAHOTMVL5pN-YrUu11dYAH0zTqZPSFrLsoGjwj-Oix65MSNFriw@mail.gmail.com>
References: <trinity-b02ae0ca-cf2b-4a45-92a1-0e62c13073c1-1444582943216@3capp-mailcom-lxa16>
 <CAHOTMVL5pN-YrUu11dYAH0zTqZPSFrLsoGjwj-Oix65MSNFriw@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAJVRA1Qd6sAVWer6WtbiDzvCFKV4uwh88ArHhbcQRQSm52_W=Q@mail.gmail.com>

On 10/11/15, Tony Arcieri <bascule at gmail.com> wrote:
> Cryptome is run by a crank who refuses to use HTTPS ...

let it be known it's never too late to teach old dogs new tricks :P

https://cryptome.org/

Certificate:
    Data:
        Version: 3 (0x2)
        Serial Number:
            bc:2b:0f:c5:4d:7d:c0:2e:02:e9:85:8e:3a:e4:93:04
    Signature Algorithm: sha256WithRSAEncryption
        Issuer: C=US, ST=VA, L=Herndon, O=Network Solutions L.L.C.,
CN=Network Solutions EV Server CA 2
        Validity
            Not Before: Jul 20 00:00:00 2015 GMT
            Not After : May  8 23:59:59 2016 GMT
        Subject:
serialNumber=010748/1.3.6.1.4.1.311.60.2.1.3=US/1.3.6.1.4.1.311.60.2.1.2=New
York/1.3.6.1.4.1.311.60.2.1.1=New York/businessCategory=Business
Entity, C=US/postalCode=10024, ST=NY, L=New York/street=251 West 89th
Street, O=Natsios Young Architects, OU=Secure Link EV SSL,
CN=www.cryptome.org
        Subject Public Key Info:
            Public Key Algorithm: rsaEncryption
                Public-Key: (2048 bit)
                Modulus:
                    00:c0:db:07:97:b1:e4:ed:ce:1f:37:88:99:d7:ad:
                    9d:04:8f:ae:e7:5d:6b:60:0d:f0:fd:5d:ff:c4:43:
                    c7:8f:99:46:01:43:08:06:e7:9a:5f:7b:88:4a:76:
                    11:7f:0f:6e:ce:f9:d8:6e:ce:06:6d:ba:62:40:4b:
                    7e:27:dd:10:9b:b7:8a:45:c0:84:a2:4a:51:c9:a9:
                    63:9b:05:9d:8d:f6:4e:7f:90:6f:22:b6:29:8c:7f:
                    67:08:e4:77:b8:28:b5:d4:5e:08:53:df:1c:e7:bf:
                    4b:fd:f0:1b:67:f8:5f:d8:10:7c:19:d4:0d:71:75:
                    6f:9f:98:3a:ff:8e:cb:74:92:05:42:aa:bf:82:50:
                    99:86:81:62:4d:f3:2b:7e:90:a4:53:3c:2f:11:cd:
                    84:9f:d2:54:83:da:2d:2d:33:15:34:ba:1c:0d:5d:
                    ec:b6:7a:b1:f7:35:db:6b:bc:f0:3f:fb:b2:91:b9:
                    e8:c5:5e:4c:2e:65:47:ae:91:32:93:00:63:b6:4d:
                    6a:99:09:92:22:d7:f6:97:76:ce:4f:11:40:23:0d:
                    35:ef:eb:ce:8c:1f:02:51:cf:e1:d2:d9:38:93:0c:
                    90:85:4b:06:92:27:a7:5e:84:80:35:16:c6:2c:a1:
                    d2:94:25:5e:f1:3e:56:45:e0:b8:31:86:fb:7b:5c:
                    9e:c5
                Exponent: 65537 (0x10001)
        X509v3 extensions:
            X509v3 Authority Key Identifier:

keyid:8F:37:4A:84:9C:F4:8E:C7:66:96:90:B4:AE:8F:BA:5E:A2:16:AA:C4

            X509v3 Subject Key Identifier:
                E2:1A:09:8B:4E:83:D9:A8:50:34:D3:0D:ED:03:C9:C3:11:C8:B6:BA
            X509v3 Key Usage: critical
                Digital Signature, Key Encipherment
            X509v3 Basic Constraints: critical
                CA:FALSE
            X509v3 Extended Key Usage:
                TLS Web Server Authentication, TLS Web Client Authentication
            X509v3 Certificate Policies:
                Policy: 1.3.6.1.4.1.782.1.2.1.8.1
                  CPS:
http://www.networksolutions.com/legal/SSL-legal-repository-ev-cps.jsp

            X509v3 CRL Distribution Points:

                Full Name:
                  URI:http://crl.netsolssl.com/NetworkSolutionsEVServerCA2.crl

            Authority Information Access:
                CA Issuers -
URI:http://crt.netsolssl.com/NetworkSolutionsEVServerCA2.crt
                OCSP - URI:http://ocsp.netsolssl.com

            X509v3 Subject Alternative Name:
                DNS:www.cryptome.org, DNS:cryptome.org
            1.3.6.1.4.1.11129.2.4.2:
                ......v.h....d..:...(.L.qQ]g..D.
g..OO.....N..d......G0E.!.....\..>.....e....Q.Z.T..3.f at ..{.
+`..O.!...F./b.........
w...H.I..u.......X......gp
<5.......w...
.....N..d......F0D. #.J.k....bk......|...I......L..U.
V\..r-.!.!...&.p.gF}..a{;.......
    Signature Algorithm: sha256WithRSAEncryption
         8e:0e:32:04:f8:f3:8f:be:9c:eb:98:c2:41:96:04:e3:f7:f4:
         0d:78:9e:cd:99:aa:bd:53:a4:ec:b8:6f:1e:4d:9c:45:a2:71:
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         7e:2b:f8:f5:3c:e8:37:01:d2:ed:13:39:0e:a7:3e:39:41:e8:
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         23:23:cc:ab:bf:1a:20:97:10:3e:2f:81:18:44:9f:b4:f3:33:
         d2:40:16:6b:10:14:d0:cf:10:a5:22:19:7c:c5:2f:98:8c:5d:
         fe:a0:2a:9b:0c:7b:40:e8:64:1e:5d:72:0a:c0:eb:5c:64:1e:
         50:07:cd:22:b3:1b:f2:d3:d2:29:94:61:5e:e2:51:1c:37:78:
         98:ab:b8:ea:0f:44:a4:55:30:18:c0:3e:cc:90:b5:05:27:d6:
         ed:a9:d9:ed
-----BEGIN CERTIFICATE-----
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-----END CERTIFICATE-----




From coderman at gmail.com  Sun Oct 11 18:01:53 2015
From: coderman at gmail.com (coderman)
Date: Sun, 11 Oct 2015 18:01:53 -0700
Subject: Why cryptome sold web logs to their paying customers?
In-Reply-To: <CANFTA09pppGsfA85-L_+-nOt5uK1Ov2G=tWf7MCYab9YrrsNoA@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CANFTA09pppGsfA85-L_+-nOt5uK1Ov2G=tWf7MCYab9YrrsNoA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAJVRA1RDiSwYi=udi-ZYnc5f0TL32wGt4Lqmf1jxog42JJeBmQ@mail.gmail.com>

On 10/11/15, Michael Best <themikebest at gmail.com> wrote:
> Normally I'd give you the benefit of the doubt, John, but the last time in
> this discussion you said something was disinfo it was the logs.

i have hated network solutions since '98.

you're free to buy their services, if you'd like to confirm first person. :)

all of us are wondering what will finally be the straw too far for John...




From themikebest at gmail.com  Sun Oct 11 15:04:41 2015
From: themikebest at gmail.com (Michael Best)
Date: Sun, 11 Oct 2015 18:04:41 -0400
Subject: Why cryptome sold web logs to their paying customers?
Message-ID: <CANFTA0_d6ZYxc23gbJdMjNVtBPBMVsjmg0+sc_CVwuHL9CTgAQ@mail.gmail.com>

Used to be you'd be accused of being COINTELPRO, now it's JTRIG. "Differing
opinion"? Almost never an option.
Different=wrong-bad-evil-enemy-hate-suspect-accuse.

On technical issues, I'm definitely a neophyte, but I'd been in contact
with JYA for quite sometime, he'd published a few documents I supplied and
shared many links on twitter. You'd think that would get him to look at the
data before smearing me. As for off-message? That's a spin term. I'm not
anti-authoritarian enough, I guess - that's quite possible by some
standards.

On Sun, Oct 11, 2015 at 5:43 PM, <cypherpunks-request at cpunks.org> wrote:

> Send cypherpunks mailing list submissions to
>         cypherpunks at cpunks.org
>
> To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit
>         https://cpunks.org/mailman/listinfo/cypherpunks
> or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to
>         cypherpunks-request at cpunks.org
>
> You can reach the person managing the list at
>         cypherpunks-owner at cpunks.org
>
> When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific
> than "Re: Contents of cypherpunks digest..."
>
>
> Today's Topics:
>
>    1. Re: [cryptome] Re: Why cryptome sold web logs to their paying
>       customers? (Razer)
>    2. Re: [cryptome] Re: Why cryptome sold web logs to their paying
>       customers? (bbrewer)
>    3. Re: [cryptome] Re: Why cryptome sold web logs to their paying
>       customers? (Shelley)
>    4. Re: [cryptome] Re: Why cryptome sold web logs to their paying
>       customers? (John Young)
>    5. Re: Why cryptome sold web logs to their paying customers?
>       (Alfie John)
>    6. Re: [cryptome] Re: Why cryptome sold web logs to their paying
>       customers? (Michael Best)
>    7. Re: Why cryptome sold web logs to their paying customers?
>       (Dr. J Feinstein)
>    8. Re: [cryptome] Re: Why cryptome sold web logs to their paying
>       customers? (Dr. J Feinstein)
>    9. Re: Why cryptome sold web logs to their paying customers?
>       (Travis Biehn)
>
>
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> Message: 1
> Date: Sun, 11 Oct 2015 13:25:03 -0700
> From: Razer <Rayzer at riseup.net>
> To: cypherpunks at cpunks.org
> Subject: Re: [cryptome] Re: Why cryptome sold web logs to their paying
>         customers?
> Message-ID: <561AC59F.9070508 at riseup.net>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="windows-1252"
>
>
>
> On 10/11/2015 01:04 PM, Michael Best wrote:
> > That would explain keeping silent, *NOT* making up lies about me and
> > saying the data is fake.
>
> I'm not going to make JYA's argument here, even if what's been assumed
> is fact, but the strategy would be a stall at least with the potential
> for redirection from the 'dead canary' hypothesis because it's typical
> for people to explode into useless flame wars over the 'leakage' instead
> of giving serious thought beyond ego/profit motives to why the leak
> occurred.
>
> But, as a notable scientist once said... "Yes, but the whole point of
> the warrant canary is lost if you keep it a secret! Why didn't you tell
> the world, eh!?!"
>
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cmCKJi3CKGE
>
> -------------- next part --------------
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> >
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 2
> Date: Sun, 11 Oct 2015 16:30:00 -0400
> From: bbrewer <bbrewer at littledystopia.net>
> To: Michael Best <themikebest at gmail.com>
> Cc: cpunks <cypherpunks at cpunks.org>, cryptome <cryptome at freelists.org>
> Subject: Re: [cryptome] Re: Why cryptome sold web logs to their paying
>         customers?
> Message-ID: <29FDC0FF-712A-4048-AA64-67845A7CDECA at littledystopia.net>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8
>
>
> > On Oct 11, 2015, at 4:22 PM, Michael Best <themikebest at gmail.com> wrote:
> >
> > Anyway to rule this out other than hearing it from John? How long before
> we begin to seriously consider it or assume it?
> >
> > And if there was a NSL, why not shut down? Why put users at ongoing
> risk??
>
>
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lavabit
>
> "Levison said that he could be arrested for closing the site instead of
> releasing the information, and it was reported that the federal
> prosecutor's office had sent Levison's lawyer an e-mail to that effect.”
>
> I’m just blabbering on suppositions here, but I wouldn’t be surprised by…
> anything.
>
> -benjamin
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 3
> Date: Sun, 11 Oct 2015 13:49:08 -0700
> From: Shelley <shelley at misanthropia.org>
> To: bbrewer <bbrewer at littledystopia.net>, Michael Best
>         <themikebest at gmail.com>
> Cc: cpunks <cypherpunks at cpunks.org>, cryptome <cryptome at freelists.org>
> Subject: Re: [cryptome] Re: Why cryptome sold web logs to their paying
>         customers?
> Message-ID: <20151011204851.D5DBAC00016 at frontend1.nyi.internal>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8"; format=flowed
>
> On October 11, 2015 1:35:42 PM bbrewer <bbrewer at littledystopia.net> wrote:
>
> >
> > > On Oct 11, 2015, at 4:22 PM, Michael Best <themikebest at gmail.com>
> wrote:
> > >
> > > Anyway to rule this out other than hearing it from John? How long
> before
> > we begin to seriously consider it or assume it?
> > >
> > > And if there was a NSL, why not shut down? Why put users at ongoing
> risk??
> >
> >
> > https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lavabit
> >
> > "Levison said that he could be arrested for closing the site instead of
> > releasing the information, and it was reported that the federal
> > prosecutor's office had sent Levison's lawyer an e-mail to that effect.”
> >
> > I’m just blabbering on suppositions here, but I wouldn’t be surprised by…
> > anything.
> >
> > -benjamin
>
> That's exactly the example I was going to post, thank you.  Yes, the feds
> can force you to keep your compromised site up; basically, anything you
> might do to warn users is verboten.
>
> Someone flaming uncharacteristically could be one of the only ways... and,
> it *is* old data.
>
> If this is the case, and that's a very tentative IF, there is not much else
> he can do (and he did as much as he could without putting himself in legal
> hot water.)
>
> -S
>
>
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 4
> Date: Sun, 11 Oct 2015 17:03:37 -0400
> From: John Young <jya at pipeline.com>
> To: cpunks <cypherpunks at cpunks.org>, cryptome <cryptome at freelists.org>
> Subject: Re: [cryptome] Re: Why cryptome sold web logs to their paying
>         customers?
> Message-ID: <E1ZlNmH-0000VV-40 at elasmtp-curtail.atl.sa.earthlink.net>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"; Format="flowed"
>
> https://cryptome.org/2012/07/gent-forum-spies.htm
>
> 25 February 2014. Related: GCHQ Full-Spectrum Cyber Effects:
>
> <http://cryptome.org/2014/02/gchq-cyber-effects.pdf>
> http://cryptome.org/2014/02/gchq-cyber-effects.pdf
>
>
> 24 February 2014. Related: GCHQ Online Deception:
>
> <http://cryptome.org/2014/02/gchq-online-deception.pdf>
> http://cryptome.org/2014/02/gchq-online-deception.pdf
>
>
> GCHQ DISRUPTION Operational Playbook:
>
> <http://cryptome.org/2014/02/gchq-disruption.pdf>
> http://cryptome.org/2014/02/gchq-disruption.pdf
>
>
> 29 January 2014. Related: GCHQ Squeaky Dolphin Psychological Operations:
>
> <http://cryptome.org/2014/01/gchq-squeaky-dolphin.pdf>
> http://cryptome.org/2014/01/gchq-squeaky-dolphin.pdf
> (18MB)
>
> 4 March 2012. Precursor to this sabotage, OSS Sabotage of Organizations:
>
> <http://svn.cacert.org/CAcert/CAcert_Inc/Board/oss/oss_sabotage.html>
> http://svn.cacert.org/CAcert/CAcert_Inc/Board/oss/oss_sabotage.html
>
>
>
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>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 5
> Date: Mon, 12 Oct 2015 08:13:50 +1100
> From: Alfie John <alfiej at fastmail.fm>
> To: cypherpunks at cpunks.org
> Subject: Re: Why cryptome sold web logs to their paying customers?
> Message-ID:
>         <1444598030.829859.407317641.4ED309A5 at webmail.messagingengine.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"
>
> On Mon, Oct 12, 2015, at 04:08 AM, Dr. J Feinstein wrote:
> > Resend–HTML email scrubbed
> >
> > Calling bullshit. Mirimirs right, this makes no sense. And JYA says
> > netsol won't let him delete the logs but Netsol says logs are disabled
> > by default[
> >
> https://www.networksolutions.com/support/how-to-enable-download-the-web-logs/
> ]
> > and you have to turn them on.
> >
> > So how the fuckd this really happen?
> >
> > Mirimir <mirimir at riseup.net> Are you arguing that users could have
> > found those logs?
> >
> > I almost can't imagine that. Logs are normally in /var/log/ somewhere,
> > and I can't imagine making them searchable. And indeed, I can't
> > imagine how Cryptome archives would have included anything from
> > /var/log/, even after system restore from backups.
> >
> > <--SNIP-->
> >
> > > Should access logs be kept for that long? Absolutely not. From what
> > > I> have read in the email exchange that was posted, the log files
> > > were> included in a NetSol total restore. My guess is that
> > > John/Cryptome did> not intentionally keep these files, and did not
> > > realize these files were> included in the archive.
> > But that's the thing. Logs should have been in /var/log/. And how
> > would the "NetSol total restore" have changed that?
>
> Not necessarily...
>
> Logs in /var/log is where they should be by default, but if the box is
> on a shared hosting account, then things are completely different. For
> instance, Bluehost charges $3.95/month, which gets you a home directory
> on a box shared with hundreds of other users. In your home directory,
> you get something like (from memory, which was a long, long time ago):
>
>   ~/
>   ~/public_www/
>   ~/public_www/html/
>   ~/public_www/access_log
>   ~/public_www/error_log
>
> So as you can see, the user does have permissions to access logs, but
> are kept in the user's _home_ directory. Now you can see why this could
> have mistakenly been distributed:
>
>   tar zcf cryptome-backup.tar.gz ~/
>
> The backup would have also slurped in all the logs. There was no malice,
> just an easy mistake that everyone here could have make given the same
> circumstances.
>
> Alfie
>
> --
>   Alfie John
>   alfiej at fastmail.fm
>
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 6
> Date: Sun, 11 Oct 2015 17:18:33 -0400
> From: Michael Best <themikebest at gmail.com>
> To: cryptome <cryptome at freelists.org>
> Cc: cpunks <cypherpunks at cpunks.org>
> Subject: Re: [cryptome] Re: Why cryptome sold web logs to their paying
>         customers?
> Message-ID:
>         <CANFTA0-jX-L8c-u+kusdY_D6YzDNwtRVXgv=
> pFoOamNSgXwVTQ at mail.gmail.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"
>
> I'm not sure what the links are meant to imply. That the log leak was a
> disruption effort by the GCHQ that was planted when NetSol restored the
> site?
>
> On Sun, Oct 11, 2015 at 5:03 PM, John Young <jya at pipeline.com> wrote:
>
> > https://cryptome.org/2012/07/gent-forum-spies.htm
> >
> > 25 February 2014. Related: GCHQ Full-Spectrum Cyber Effects:
> >
> > http://cryptome.org/2014/02/gchq-cyber-effects.pdf
> >
> > 24 February 2014. Related: GCHQ Online Deception:
> >
> > http://cryptome.org/2014/02/gchq-online-deception.pdf
> >
> > GCHQ DISRUPTION Operational Playbook:
> >
> > http://cryptome.org/2014/02/gchq-disruption.pdf
> >
> > 29 January 2014. Related: GCHQ Squeaky Dolphin Psychological Operations:
> >
> > http://cryptome.org/2014/01/gchq-squeaky-dolphin.pdf (18MB)
> >
> > 4 March 2012. Precursor to this sabotage, OSS Sabotage of Organizations:
> >
> > http://svn.cacert.org/CAcert/CAcert_Inc/Board/oss/oss_sabotage.html
> >
> >
> >
> -------------- next part --------------
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>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 7
> Date: Sun, 11 Oct 2015 23:24:15 +0200
> From: "Dr. J Feinstein" <drjfeinstein at mail.com>
> To: alfiej at fastmail.fm
> Cc: cypherpunks at cpunks.org
> Subject: Re: Why cryptome sold web logs to their paying customers?
> Message-ID:
>
> <trinity-b3ad17af-4e1b-4f86-9947-45853cfd1f4c-1444598654915 at 3capp-mailcom-lxa08
> >
>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8
>
> Maybe, but why those foldersmonths only? Itd be good to hear from JYA,
> especially b/c Netsol contradicts him.
>
> > Sent: Sunday, October 11, 2015 at 9:13 PM
> > From: "Alfie John" <alfiej at fastmail.fm>
> > To: cypherpunks at cpunks.org
> > Subject: Re: Why cryptome sold web logs to their paying customers?
> >
> > On Mon, Oct 12, 2015, at 04:08 AM, Dr. J Feinstein wrote:
> > > Resend–HTML email scrubbed
> > >
> > > Calling bullshit. Mirimirs right, this makes no sense. And JYA says
> > > netsol won't let him delete the logs but Netsol says logs are disabled
> > > by default[
> > >
> https://www.networksolutions.com/support/how-to-enable-download-the-web-logs/
> ]
> > > and you have to turn them on.
> > >
> > > So how the fuckd this really happen?
> > >
> > > Mirimir <mirimir at riseup.net> Are you arguing that users could have
> > > found those logs?
> > >
> > > I almost can't imagine that. Logs are normally in /var/log/ somewhere,
> > > and I can't imagine making them searchable. And indeed, I can't
> > > imagine how Cryptome archives would have included anything from
> > > /var/log/, even after system restore from backups.
> > >
> > > <--SNIP-->
> > >
> > > > Should access logs be kept for that long? Absolutely not. From what
> > > > I> have read in the email exchange that was posted, the log files
> > > > were> included in a NetSol total restore. My guess is that
> > > > John/Cryptome did> not intentionally keep these files, and did not
> > > > realize these files were> included in the archive.
> > > But that's the thing. Logs should have been in /var/log/. And how
> > > would the "NetSol total restore" have changed that?
> >
> > Not necessarily...
> >
> > Logs in /var/log is where they should be by default, but if the box is
> > on a shared hosting account, then things are completely different. For
> > instance, Bluehost charges $3.95/month, which gets you a home directory
> > on a box shared with hundreds of other users. In your home directory,
> > you get something like (from memory, which was a long, long time ago):
> >
> >   ~/
> >   ~/public_www/
> >   ~/public_www/html/
> >   ~/public_www/access_log
> >   ~/public_www/error_log
> >
> > So as you can see, the user does have permissions to access logs, but
> > are kept in the user's _home_ directory. Now you can see why this could
> > have mistakenly been distributed:
> >
> >   tar zcf cryptome-backup.tar.gz ~/
> >
> > The backup would have also slurped in all the logs. There was no malice,
> > just an easy mistake that everyone here could have make given the same
> > circumstances.
> >
> > Alfie
> >
> > --
> >   Alfie John
> >   alfiej at fastmail.fm
> >
> >
>
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 8
> Date: Sun, 11 Oct 2015 23:33:33 +0200
> From: "Dr. J Feinstein" <drjfeinstein at mail.com>
> To: "Michael Best" <themikebest at gmail.com>
> Cc: cpunks <cypherpunks at cpunks.org>, cryptome <cryptome at freelists.org>
> Subject: Re: [cryptome] Re: Why cryptome sold web logs to their paying
>         customers?
> Message-ID:
>
> <trinity-135ce961-ec2d-4bd9-8df8-772b864b2834-1444599213281 at 3capp-mailcom-lxa08
> >
>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"
>
> An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
> URL: <
> http://cpunks.org/pipermail/cypherpunks/attachments/20151011/37caa80c/attachment-0001.html
> >
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 9
> Date: Sun, 11 Oct 2015 21:43:31 +0000
> From: Travis Biehn <tbiehn at gmail.com>
> To: "Dr. J Feinstein" <drjfeinstein at mail.com>, alfiej at fastmail.fm
> Cc: cypherpunks at cpunks.org
> Subject: Re: Why cryptome sold web logs to their paying customers?
> Message-ID:
>         <CAKtE3zexn9=fi1v_-7r0snYT+_+mG=ZZazfbkwoQaOFsYBat=
> A at mail.gmail.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"
>
> It's simple.
> Someone made a mistake. Best was initially assumed full of shit by JYA, as
> he's a neophyte - and is consistently 'off-message' for this list.
>
> Others, wishing to read more into it, other than face value of hubris, see
> plans within plans.
>
> At the end of the day, Bests' disclosures amount to nothing of consequence.
> At best he overhyped them, being a neophyte. At worst he's JTRIGd the list,
> hilariously easily. The technical cognoscenti on the list stay quiet, "code
> compiling" as the good doctor says.
>
> In general, this oversight is valuable because it demonstrates one thing:
> Even if you try to delete it.
> If there's a signal it will leak. Purposefully or not.
>
> When the protocol you use doesn't provide metadata anonymity, don't expect
> it because you won't get it. If you don't understand this - keep studying.
>
> Why guess at 'motivation'? Do we need to FUD yet another leaker site? Put
> your money where your mouth is - improve it, donate, write your own, fix
> the bug & plug the hole.
>
> Travis
>
> On Sun, Oct 11, 2015, 5:28 PM Dr. J Feinstein <drjfeinstein at mail.com>
> wrote:
>
> > Maybe, but why those foldersmonths only? Itd be good to hear from JYA,
> > especially b/c Netsol contradicts him.
> >
> > > Sent: Sunday, October 11, 2015 at 9:13 PM
> > > From: "Alfie John" <alfiej at fastmail.fm>
> > > To: cypherpunks at cpunks.org
> > > Subject: Re: Why cryptome sold web logs to their paying customers?
> > >
> > > On Mon, Oct 12, 2015, at 04:08 AM, Dr. J Feinstein wrote:
> > > > Resend–HTML email scrubbed
> > > >
> > > > Calling bullshit. Mirimirs right, this makes no sense. And JYA says
> > > > netsol won't let him delete the logs but Netsol says logs are
> disabled
> > > > by default[
> > > >
> >
> https://www.networksolutions.com/support/how-to-enable-download-the-web-logs/
> > ]
> > > > and you have to turn them on.
> > > >
> > > > So how the fuckd this really happen?
> > > >
> > > > Mirimir <mirimir at riseup.net> Are you arguing that users could have
> > > > found those logs?
> > > >
> > > > I almost can't imagine that. Logs are normally in /var/log/
> somewhere,
> > > > and I can't imagine making them searchable. And indeed, I can't
> > > > imagine how Cryptome archives would have included anything from
> > > > /var/log/, even after system restore from backups.
> > > >
> > > > <--SNIP-->
> > > >
> > > > > Should access logs be kept for that long? Absolutely not. From what
> > > > > I> have read in the email exchange that was posted, the log files
> > > > > were> included in a NetSol total restore. My guess is that
> > > > > John/Cryptome did> not intentionally keep these files, and did not
> > > > > realize these files were> included in the archive.
> > > > But that's the thing. Logs should have been in /var/log/. And how
> > > > would the "NetSol total restore" have changed that?
> > >
> > > Not necessarily...
> > >
> > > Logs in /var/log is where they should be by default, but if the box is
> > > on a shared hosting account, then things are completely different. For
> > > instance, Bluehost charges $3.95/month, which gets you a home directory
> > > on a box shared with hundreds of other users. In your home directory,
> > > you get something like (from memory, which was a long, long time ago):
> > >
> > >   ~/
> > >   ~/public_www/
> > >   ~/public_www/html/
> > >   ~/public_www/access_log
> > >   ~/public_www/error_log
> > >
> > > So as you can see, the user does have permissions to access logs, but
> > > are kept in the user's _home_ directory. Now you can see why this could
> > > have mistakenly been distributed:
> > >
> > >   tar zcf cryptome-backup.tar.gz ~/
> > >
> > > The backup would have also slurped in all the logs. There was no
> malice,
> > > just an easy mistake that everyone here could have make given the same
> > > circumstances.
> > >
> > > Alfie
> > >
> > > --
> > >   Alfie John
> > >   alfiej at fastmail.fm
> > >
> > >
> >
> >
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>
> ------------------------------
>
> Subject: Digest Footer
>
> _______________________________________________
> cypherpunks mailing list
> cypherpunks at cpunks.org
> https://cpunks.org/mailman/listinfo/cypherpunks
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> End of cypherpunks Digest, Vol 28, Issue 47
> *******************************************
>
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From tbiehn at gmail.com  Sun Oct 11 15:25:39 2015
From: tbiehn at gmail.com (Travis Biehn)
Date: Sun, 11 Oct 2015 18:25:39 -0400
Subject: Why cryptome sold web logs to their paying customers?
In-Reply-To: <CANFTA0_d6ZYxc23gbJdMjNVtBPBMVsjmg0+sc_CVwuHL9CTgAQ@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CANFTA0_d6ZYxc23gbJdMjNVtBPBMVsjmg0+sc_CVwuHL9CTgAQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAKtE3zc2xyL31mZyh1gHM3V=8Zy=gyzFOkN5OnNc0PwVLqydCw@mail.gmail.com>

I choose my words for my own amusement. You got the other neophytes riled
up - they're not sure how to respond to chaotic disclosure, they want to
know; "what does it all mean". The old guard grumbles, SSDD.

I don't think you're COINTELPRO/JTRIG Mike. It does amuse me, however, how
quick everyone is to defend/attack on a non-event, spitting someone out of
this community would be pretty easy, should the powers be deem it important
enough.

-Travis

On Sun, Oct 11, 2015 at 6:04 PM, Michael Best <themikebest at gmail.com> wrote:

> Used to be you'd be accused of being COINTELPRO, now it's JTRIG.
> "Differing opinion"? Almost never an option.
> Different=wrong-bad-evil-enemy-hate-suspect-accuse.
>
> On technical issues, I'm definitely a neophyte, but I'd been in contact
> with JYA for quite sometime, he'd published a few documents I supplied and
> shared many links on twitter. You'd think that would get him to look at the
> data before smearing me. As for off-message? That's a spin term. I'm not
> anti-authoritarian enough, I guess - that's quite possible by some
> standards.
>
> On Sun, Oct 11, 2015 at 5:43 PM, <cypherpunks-request at cpunks.org> wrote:
>
>> Send cypherpunks mailing list submissions to
>>         cypherpunks at cpunks.org
>>
>> To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit
>>         https://cpunks.org/mailman/listinfo/cypherpunks
>> or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to
>>         cypherpunks-request at cpunks.org
>>
>> You can reach the person managing the list at
>>         cypherpunks-owner at cpunks.org
>>
>> When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific
>> than "Re: Contents of cypherpunks digest..."
>>
>>
>> Today's Topics:
>>
>>    1. Re: [cryptome] Re: Why cryptome sold web logs to their paying
>>       customers? (Razer)
>>    2. Re: [cryptome] Re: Why cryptome sold web logs to their paying
>>       customers? (bbrewer)
>>    3. Re: [cryptome] Re: Why cryptome sold web logs to their paying
>>       customers? (Shelley)
>>    4. Re: [cryptome] Re: Why cryptome sold web logs to their paying
>>       customers? (John Young)
>>    5. Re: Why cryptome sold web logs to their paying customers?
>>       (Alfie John)
>>    6. Re: [cryptome] Re: Why cryptome sold web logs to their paying
>>       customers? (Michael Best)
>>    7. Re: Why cryptome sold web logs to their paying customers?
>>       (Dr. J Feinstein)
>>    8. Re: [cryptome] Re: Why cryptome sold web logs to their paying
>>       customers? (Dr. J Feinstein)
>>    9. Re: Why cryptome sold web logs to their paying customers?
>>       (Travis Biehn)
>>
>>
>> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
>>
>> Message: 1
>> Date: Sun, 11 Oct 2015 13:25:03 -0700
>> From: Razer <Rayzer at riseup.net>
>> To: cypherpunks at cpunks.org
>> Subject: Re: [cryptome] Re: Why cryptome sold web logs to their paying
>>         customers?
>> Message-ID: <561AC59F.9070508 at riseup.net>
>> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="windows-1252"
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> On 10/11/2015 01:04 PM, Michael Best wrote:
>> > That would explain keeping silent, *NOT* making up lies about me and
>> > saying the data is fake.
>>
>> I'm not going to make JYA's argument here, even if what's been assumed
>> is fact, but the strategy would be a stall at least with the potential
>> for redirection from the 'dead canary' hypothesis because it's typical
>> for people to explode into useless flame wars over the 'leakage' instead
>> of giving serious thought beyond ego/profit motives to why the leak
>> occurred.
>>
>> But, as a notable scientist once said... "Yes, but the whole point of
>> the warrant canary is lost if you keep it a secret! Why didn't you tell
>> the world, eh!?!"
>>
>> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cmCKJi3CKGE
>>
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>> >
>>
>> ------------------------------
>>
>> Message: 2
>> Date: Sun, 11 Oct 2015 16:30:00 -0400
>> From: bbrewer <bbrewer at littledystopia.net>
>> To: Michael Best <themikebest at gmail.com>
>> Cc: cpunks <cypherpunks at cpunks.org>, cryptome <cryptome at freelists.org>
>> Subject: Re: [cryptome] Re: Why cryptome sold web logs to their paying
>>         customers?
>> Message-ID: <29FDC0FF-712A-4048-AA64-67845A7CDECA at littledystopia.net>
>> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8
>>
>>
>> > On Oct 11, 2015, at 4:22 PM, Michael Best <themikebest at gmail.com>
>> wrote:
>> >
>> > Anyway to rule this out other than hearing it from John? How long
>> before we begin to seriously consider it or assume it?
>> >
>> > And if there was a NSL, why not shut down? Why put users at ongoing
>> risk??
>>
>>
>> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lavabit
>>
>> "Levison said that he could be arrested for closing the site instead of
>> releasing the information, and it was reported that the federal
>> prosecutor's office had sent Levison's lawyer an e-mail to that effect.”
>>
>> I’m just blabbering on suppositions here, but I wouldn’t be surprised by…
>> anything.
>>
>> -benjamin
>>
>>
>> ------------------------------
>>
>> Message: 3
>> Date: Sun, 11 Oct 2015 13:49:08 -0700
>> From: Shelley <shelley at misanthropia.org>
>> To: bbrewer <bbrewer at littledystopia.net>, Michael Best
>>         <themikebest at gmail.com>
>> Cc: cpunks <cypherpunks at cpunks.org>, cryptome <cryptome at freelists.org>
>> Subject: Re: [cryptome] Re: Why cryptome sold web logs to their paying
>>         customers?
>> Message-ID: <20151011204851.D5DBAC00016 at frontend1.nyi.internal>
>> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8"; format=flowed
>>
>>
>> On October 11, 2015 1:35:42 PM bbrewer <bbrewer at littledystopia.net>
>> wrote:
>>
>> >
>> > > On Oct 11, 2015, at 4:22 PM, Michael Best <themikebest at gmail.com>
>> wrote:
>> > >
>> > > Anyway to rule this out other than hearing it from John? How long
>> before
>> > we begin to seriously consider it or assume it?
>> > >
>> > > And if there was a NSL, why not shut down? Why put users at ongoing
>> risk??
>> >
>> >
>> > https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lavabit
>> >
>> > "Levison said that he could be arrested for closing the site instead of
>> > releasing the information, and it was reported that the federal
>> > prosecutor's office had sent Levison's lawyer an e-mail to that effect.”
>> >
>> > I’m just blabbering on suppositions here, but I wouldn’t be surprised
>> by…
>> > anything.
>> >
>> > -benjamin
>>
>> That's exactly the example I was going to post, thank you.  Yes, the feds
>> can force you to keep your compromised site up; basically, anything you
>> might do to warn users is verboten.
>>
>> Someone flaming uncharacteristically could be one of the only ways... and,
>> it *is* old data.
>>
>> If this is the case, and that's a very tentative IF, there is not much
>> else
>> he can do (and he did as much as he could without putting himself in legal
>> hot water.)
>>
>> -S
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> ------------------------------
>>
>> Message: 4
>> Date: Sun, 11 Oct 2015 17:03:37 -0400
>> From: John Young <jya at pipeline.com>
>> To: cpunks <cypherpunks at cpunks.org>, cryptome <cryptome at freelists.org>
>> Subject: Re: [cryptome] Re: Why cryptome sold web logs to their paying
>>         customers?
>> Message-ID: <E1ZlNmH-0000VV-40 at elasmtp-curtail.atl.sa.earthlink.net>
>> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"; Format="flowed"
>>
>> https://cryptome.org/2012/07/gent-forum-spies.htm
>>
>> 25 February 2014. Related: GCHQ Full-Spectrum Cyber Effects:
>>
>> <http://cryptome.org/2014/02/gchq-cyber-effects.pdf>
>> http://cryptome.org/2014/02/gchq-cyber-effects.pdf
>>
>>
>> 24 February 2014. Related: GCHQ Online Deception:
>>
>> <http://cryptome.org/2014/02/gchq-online-deception.pdf>
>> http://cryptome.org/2014/02/gchq-online-deception.pdf
>>
>>
>> GCHQ DISRUPTION Operational Playbook:
>>
>> <http://cryptome.org/2014/02/gchq-disruption.pdf>
>> http://cryptome.org/2014/02/gchq-disruption.pdf
>>
>>
>> 29 January 2014. Related: GCHQ Squeaky Dolphin Psychological Operations:
>>
>> <http://cryptome.org/2014/01/gchq-squeaky-dolphin.pdf>
>> http://cryptome.org/2014/01/gchq-squeaky-dolphin.pdf
>> (18MB)
>>
>> 4 March 2012. Precursor to this sabotage, OSS Sabotage of Organizations:
>>
>> <http://svn.cacert.org/CAcert/CAcert_Inc/Board/oss/oss_sabotage.html>
>> http://svn.cacert.org/CAcert/CAcert_Inc/Board/oss/oss_sabotage.html
>>
>>
>>
>> -------------- next part --------------
>> An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
>> URL: <
>> http://cpunks.org/pipermail/cypherpunks/attachments/20151011/eeffc4aa/attachment-0001.html
>> >
>>
>> ------------------------------
>>
>> Message: 5
>> Date: Mon, 12 Oct 2015 08:13:50 +1100
>> From: Alfie John <alfiej at fastmail.fm>
>> To: cypherpunks at cpunks.org
>> Subject: Re: Why cryptome sold web logs to their paying customers?
>> Message-ID:
>>         <1444598030.829859.407317641.4ED309A5 at webmail.messagingengine.com
>> >
>> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"
>>
>>
>> On Mon, Oct 12, 2015, at 04:08 AM, Dr. J Feinstein wrote:
>> > Resend–HTML email scrubbed
>> >
>> > Calling bullshit. Mirimirs right, this makes no sense. And JYA says
>> > netsol won't let him delete the logs but Netsol says logs are disabled
>> > by default[
>> >
>> https://www.networksolutions.com/support/how-to-enable-download-the-web-logs/
>> ]
>> > and you have to turn them on.
>> >
>> > So how the fuckd this really happen?
>> >
>> > Mirimir <mirimir at riseup.net> Are you arguing that users could have
>> > found those logs?
>> >
>> > I almost can't imagine that. Logs are normally in /var/log/ somewhere,
>> > and I can't imagine making them searchable. And indeed, I can't
>> > imagine how Cryptome archives would have included anything from
>> > /var/log/, even after system restore from backups.
>> >
>> > <--SNIP-->
>> >
>> > > Should access logs be kept for that long? Absolutely not. From what
>> > > I> have read in the email exchange that was posted, the log files
>> > > were> included in a NetSol total restore. My guess is that
>> > > John/Cryptome did> not intentionally keep these files, and did not
>> > > realize these files were> included in the archive.
>> > But that's the thing. Logs should have been in /var/log/. And how
>> > would the "NetSol total restore" have changed that?
>>
>> Not necessarily...
>>
>> Logs in /var/log is where they should be by default, but if the box is
>> on a shared hosting account, then things are completely different. For
>> instance, Bluehost charges $3.95/month, which gets you a home directory
>> on a box shared with hundreds of other users. In your home directory,
>> you get something like (from memory, which was a long, long time ago):
>>
>>   ~/
>>   ~/public_www/
>>   ~/public_www/html/
>>   ~/public_www/access_log
>>   ~/public_www/error_log
>>
>> So as you can see, the user does have permissions to access logs, but
>> are kept in the user's _home_ directory. Now you can see why this could
>> have mistakenly been distributed:
>>
>>   tar zcf cryptome-backup.tar.gz ~/
>>
>> The backup would have also slurped in all the logs. There was no malice,
>> just an easy mistake that everyone here could have make given the same
>> circumstances.
>>
>> Alfie
>>
>> --
>>   Alfie John
>>   alfiej at fastmail.fm
>>
>>
>>
>> ------------------------------
>>
>> Message: 6
>> Date: Sun, 11 Oct 2015 17:18:33 -0400
>> From: Michael Best <themikebest at gmail.com>
>> To: cryptome <cryptome at freelists.org>
>> Cc: cpunks <cypherpunks at cpunks.org>
>> Subject: Re: [cryptome] Re: Why cryptome sold web logs to their paying
>>         customers?
>> Message-ID:
>>         <CANFTA0-jX-L8c-u+kusdY_D6YzDNwtRVXgv=
>> pFoOamNSgXwVTQ at mail.gmail.com>
>> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"
>>
>> I'm not sure what the links are meant to imply. That the log leak was a
>> disruption effort by the GCHQ that was planted when NetSol restored the
>> site?
>>
>> On Sun, Oct 11, 2015 at 5:03 PM, John Young <jya at pipeline.com> wrote:
>>
>> > https://cryptome.org/2012/07/gent-forum-spies.htm
>> >
>> > 25 February 2014. Related: GCHQ Full-Spectrum Cyber Effects:
>> >
>> > http://cryptome.org/2014/02/gchq-cyber-effects.pdf
>> >
>> > 24 February 2014. Related: GCHQ Online Deception:
>> >
>> > http://cryptome.org/2014/02/gchq-online-deception.pdf
>> >
>> > GCHQ DISRUPTION Operational Playbook:
>> >
>> > http://cryptome.org/2014/02/gchq-disruption.pdf
>> >
>> > 29 January 2014. Related: GCHQ Squeaky Dolphin Psychological Operations:
>> >
>> > http://cryptome.org/2014/01/gchq-squeaky-dolphin.pdf (18MB)
>> >
>> > 4 March 2012. Precursor to this sabotage, OSS Sabotage of Organizations:
>> >
>> > http://svn.cacert.org/CAcert/CAcert_Inc/Board/oss/oss_sabotage.html
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> -------------- next part --------------
>> An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
>> URL: <
>> http://cpunks.org/pipermail/cypherpunks/attachments/20151011/23af6a29/attachment-0001.html
>> >
>>
>> ------------------------------
>>
>> Message: 7
>> Date: Sun, 11 Oct 2015 23:24:15 +0200
>> From: "Dr. J Feinstein" <drjfeinstein at mail.com>
>> To: alfiej at fastmail.fm
>> Cc: cypherpunks at cpunks.org
>> Subject: Re: Why cryptome sold web logs to their paying customers?
>> Message-ID:
>>
>> <trinity-b3ad17af-4e1b-4f86-9947-45853cfd1f4c-1444598654915 at 3capp-mailcom-lxa08
>> >
>>
>> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8
>>
>>
>> Maybe, but why those foldersmonths only? Itd be good to hear from JYA,
>> especially b/c Netsol contradicts him.
>>
>> > Sent: Sunday, October 11, 2015 at 9:13 PM
>> > From: "Alfie John" <alfiej at fastmail.fm>
>> > To: cypherpunks at cpunks.org
>> > Subject: Re: Why cryptome sold web logs to their paying customers?
>> >
>> > On Mon, Oct 12, 2015, at 04:08 AM, Dr. J Feinstein wrote:
>> > > Resend–HTML email scrubbed
>> > >
>> > > Calling bullshit. Mirimirs right, this makes no sense. And JYA says
>> > > netsol won't let him delete the logs but Netsol says logs are disabled
>> > > by default[
>> > >
>> https://www.networksolutions.com/support/how-to-enable-download-the-web-logs/
>> ]
>> > > and you have to turn them on.
>> > >
>> > > So how the fuckd this really happen?
>> > >
>> > > Mirimir <mirimir at riseup.net> Are you arguing that users could have
>> > > found those logs?
>> > >
>> > > I almost can't imagine that. Logs are normally in /var/log/ somewhere,
>> > > and I can't imagine making them searchable. And indeed, I can't
>> > > imagine how Cryptome archives would have included anything from
>> > > /var/log/, even after system restore from backups.
>> > >
>> > > <--SNIP-->
>> > >
>> > > > Should access logs be kept for that long? Absolutely not. From what
>> > > > I> have read in the email exchange that was posted, the log files
>> > > > were> included in a NetSol total restore. My guess is that
>> > > > John/Cryptome did> not intentionally keep these files, and did not
>> > > > realize these files were> included in the archive.
>> > > But that's the thing. Logs should have been in /var/log/. And how
>> > > would the "NetSol total restore" have changed that?
>> >
>> > Not necessarily...
>> >
>> > Logs in /var/log is where they should be by default, but if the box is
>> > on a shared hosting account, then things are completely different. For
>> > instance, Bluehost charges $3.95/month, which gets you a home directory
>> > on a box shared with hundreds of other users. In your home directory,
>> > you get something like (from memory, which was a long, long time ago):
>> >
>> >   ~/
>> >   ~/public_www/
>> >   ~/public_www/html/
>> >   ~/public_www/access_log
>> >   ~/public_www/error_log
>> >
>> > So as you can see, the user does have permissions to access logs, but
>> > are kept in the user's _home_ directory. Now you can see why this could
>> > have mistakenly been distributed:
>> >
>> >   tar zcf cryptome-backup.tar.gz ~/
>> >
>> > The backup would have also slurped in all the logs. There was no malice,
>> > just an easy mistake that everyone here could have make given the same
>> > circumstances.
>> >
>> > Alfie
>> >
>> > --
>> >   Alfie John
>> >   alfiej at fastmail.fm
>> >
>> >
>>
>>
>>
>> ------------------------------
>>
>> Message: 8
>> Date: Sun, 11 Oct 2015 23:33:33 +0200
>> From: "Dr. J Feinstein" <drjfeinstein at mail.com>
>> To: "Michael Best" <themikebest at gmail.com>
>> Cc: cpunks <cypherpunks at cpunks.org>, cryptome <cryptome at freelists.org>
>> Subject: Re: [cryptome] Re: Why cryptome sold web logs to their paying
>>         customers?
>> Message-ID:
>>
>> <trinity-135ce961-ec2d-4bd9-8df8-772b864b2834-1444599213281 at 3capp-mailcom-lxa08
>> >
>>
>> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"
>>
>> An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
>> URL: <
>> http://cpunks.org/pipermail/cypherpunks/attachments/20151011/37caa80c/attachment-0001.html
>> >
>>
>> ------------------------------
>>
>> Message: 9
>> Date: Sun, 11 Oct 2015 21:43:31 +0000
>> From: Travis Biehn <tbiehn at gmail.com>
>> To: "Dr. J Feinstein" <drjfeinstein at mail.com>, alfiej at fastmail.fm
>> Cc: cypherpunks at cpunks.org
>> Subject: Re: Why cryptome sold web logs to their paying customers?
>> Message-ID:
>>         <CAKtE3zexn9=fi1v_-7r0snYT+_+mG=ZZazfbkwoQaOFsYBat=
>> A at mail.gmail.com>
>> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"
>>
>>
>> It's simple.
>> Someone made a mistake. Best was initially assumed full of shit by JYA, as
>> he's a neophyte - and is consistently 'off-message' for this list.
>>
>> Others, wishing to read more into it, other than face value of hubris, see
>> plans within plans.
>>
>> At the end of the day, Bests' disclosures amount to nothing of
>> consequence.
>> At best he overhyped them, being a neophyte. At worst he's JTRIGd the
>> list,
>> hilariously easily. The technical cognoscenti on the list stay quiet,
>> "code
>> compiling" as the good doctor says.
>>
>> In general, this oversight is valuable because it demonstrates one thing:
>> Even if you try to delete it.
>> If there's a signal it will leak. Purposefully or not.
>>
>> When the protocol you use doesn't provide metadata anonymity, don't expect
>> it because you won't get it. If you don't understand this - keep studying.
>>
>> Why guess at 'motivation'? Do we need to FUD yet another leaker site? Put
>> your money where your mouth is - improve it, donate, write your own, fix
>> the bug & plug the hole.
>>
>> Travis
>>
>> On Sun, Oct 11, 2015, 5:28 PM Dr. J Feinstein <drjfeinstein at mail.com>
>> wrote:
>>
>> > Maybe, but why those foldersmonths only? Itd be good to hear from JYA,
>> > especially b/c Netsol contradicts him.
>> >
>> > > Sent: Sunday, October 11, 2015 at 9:13 PM
>> > > From: "Alfie John" <alfiej at fastmail.fm>
>> > > To: cypherpunks at cpunks.org
>> > > Subject: Re: Why cryptome sold web logs to their paying customers?
>> > >
>> > > On Mon, Oct 12, 2015, at 04:08 AM, Dr. J Feinstein wrote:
>> > > > Resend–HTML email scrubbed
>> > > >
>> > > > Calling bullshit. Mirimirs right, this makes no sense. And JYA says
>> > > > netsol won't let him delete the logs but Netsol says logs are
>> disabled
>> > > > by default[
>> > > >
>> >
>> https://www.networksolutions.com/support/how-to-enable-download-the-web-logs/
>> > ]
>> > > > and you have to turn them on.
>> > > >
>> > > > So how the fuckd this really happen?
>> > > >
>> > > > Mirimir <mirimir at riseup.net> Are you arguing that users could have
>> > > > found those logs?
>> > > >
>> > > > I almost can't imagine that. Logs are normally in /var/log/
>> somewhere,
>> > > > and I can't imagine making them searchable. And indeed, I can't
>> > > > imagine how Cryptome archives would have included anything from
>> > > > /var/log/, even after system restore from backups.
>> > > >
>> > > > <--SNIP-->
>> > > >
>> > > > > Should access logs be kept for that long? Absolutely not. From
>> what
>> > > > > I> have read in the email exchange that was posted, the log files
>> > > > > were> included in a NetSol total restore. My guess is that
>> > > > > John/Cryptome did> not intentionally keep these files, and did not
>> > > > > realize these files were> included in the archive.
>> > > > But that's the thing. Logs should have been in /var/log/. And how
>> > > > would the "NetSol total restore" have changed that?
>> > >
>> > > Not necessarily...
>> > >
>> > > Logs in /var/log is where they should be by default, but if the box is
>> > > on a shared hosting account, then things are completely different. For
>> > > instance, Bluehost charges $3.95/month, which gets you a home
>> directory
>> > > on a box shared with hundreds of other users. In your home directory,
>> > > you get something like (from memory, which was a long, long time ago):
>> > >
>> > >   ~/
>> > >   ~/public_www/
>> > >   ~/public_www/html/
>> > >   ~/public_www/access_log
>> > >   ~/public_www/error_log
>> > >
>> > > So as you can see, the user does have permissions to access logs, but
>> > > are kept in the user's _home_ directory. Now you can see why this
>> could
>> > > have mistakenly been distributed:
>> > >
>> > >   tar zcf cryptome-backup.tar.gz ~/
>> > >
>> > > The backup would have also slurped in all the logs. There was no
>> malice,
>> > > just an easy mistake that everyone here could have make given the same
>> > > circumstances.
>> > >
>> > > Alfie
>> > >
>> > > --
>> > >   Alfie John
>> > >   alfiej at fastmail.fm
>> > >
>> > >
>> >
>> >
>> -------------- next part --------------
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>> URL: <
>> http://cpunks.org/pipermail/cypherpunks/attachments/20151011/f8ddd42d/attachment.html
>> >
>>
>> ------------------------------
>>
>> Subject: Digest Footer
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> cypherpunks mailing list
>> cypherpunks at cpunks.org
>> https://cpunks.org/mailman/listinfo/cypherpunks
>>
>>
>> ------------------------------
>>
>> End of cypherpunks Digest, Vol 28, Issue 47
>> *******************************************
>>
>
>


-- 
Twitter <https://twitter.com/tbiehn> | LinkedIn
<http://www.linkedin.com/in/travisbiehn> | GitHub <http://github.com/tbiehn>
| TravisBiehn.com <http://www.travisbiehn.com> | Google Plus
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From themikebest at gmail.com  Sun Oct 11 15:41:18 2015
From: themikebest at gmail.com (Michael Best)
Date: Sun, 11 Oct 2015 18:41:18 -0400
Subject: [cryptome] Re: NatSecGeek
In-Reply-To: <CAJVRA1TM4j14KX1zDiiSpEkDaB2TWFttcrd+Fix+2p0pRUJbfw@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CANFTA0-qPf1VhateDGgbWRuxTrua4H7fqVXJVGsg+Upx-WwfGw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAJVRA1Tujm68F6cg_o_JjjHtSC9Wxd86iEGSSeCxYW2=8xkyBQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <CANFTA0-hj_v0ezi-1qvr8X3ELmCTpzyUyTnADe-2QKQO441vKA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAGRDzQV3ps1jFwA9H2ZDL4RnMeZR7cj44Fo+U34YESonVVs-xw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CANFTA09n99=-pqgt-VDf6V5BFOk7EWGdyktaiKvJpaC4JL98cw@mail.gmail.com>
 <20151010135231.GD2694@sivokote.iziade.m$>
 <CANFTA0_ar1V2csWrdKJGPote-n24cWvO9sfs7x+B_-jzkp8Qfw@mail.gmail.com>
 <20151010140904.GE2694@sivokote.iziade.m$>
 <CANFTA09QXePNmaqoWW-XMD_fFusAq65EMewzkMsYUjnZoSeJhA@mail.gmail.com>
 <20151010141819.GF2694@sivokote.iziade.m$>
 <CANFTA08+QbS0ri+UTfkhjSRgTZ-HJ-e76KEJbSdQU45bZBeCgQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAJVRA1TM4j14KX1zDiiSpEkDaB2TWFttcrd+Fix+2p0pRUJbfw@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CANFTA089yLk_kQE+6x+Sy+kOxAQ3MwycuCE5bVt+XRrK8vUEVA@mail.gmail.com>

Does it help if I've been told that I have anti-social tendencies? ;-)

Joking aside, I actually think I understand. I got so fed up with it that I
took a break from social media, and added "More information, less social
media" to my 'Twatter' (did I say that right??) when I did come back. I'm
not even on MyFace anymore!! https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R_qs_JM48ug

On Sun, Oct 11, 2015 at 6:37 PM, coderman <coderman at gmail.com> wrote:

> On 10/10/15, Michael Best <themikebest at gmail.com> wrote:
> > Yep...
>
> Michael the first rule of cypherpunks is to admit nothing. especially
> use of social media ;)
>
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From dal at riseup.net  Sun Oct 11 16:41:22 2015
From: dal at riseup.net (Douglas Lucas)
Date: Sun, 11 Oct 2015 18:41:22 -0500
Subject: How to minimize one's damage in case the usa kicks the bucket?
In-Reply-To: <20151005085119.GA2489@sivokote.iziade.m$>
References: <20151005085119.GA2489@sivokote.iziade.m$>
Message-ID: <561AF3A2.5030206@riseup.net>

Reviving this thread. Where's the altruism in "how to minimize one's
damage"? Why's the model here for resisting economic oppression a
survivalist hiding in an encrypted bunker, rather than the people of
Burkina Faso using sticks and rocks (not cryptography) to force
oligarchs out of their country? In Mexico they were recently burning
polling stations, but we were discussing hoarding Bitcoin to ensure our
self-interest? Where's the idealism in such selfishness?

On 10/05/2015 03:51 AM, Georgi Guninski wrote:
> The financial situation in the usa is quite grave.
> 
> Assume very severe financial crisis hits the usa relatively soon causing
> hyperinflation there and possibly in other countries.
> 
> I am interested:  How to minimize one's damage in this situation?
> 
> Some suspicions: Banks/exchanges are known Ponzi schemes, so how much
> the banking system will remain intact is unclear to me.
> 
> Some possibilities
> real estate outside usa
> gold (is gold certificate secure enough?)
> bitcoins (some people got burnt, security of bitcoins not clear to me)
> ???
> 
> Please post political rants in other thread.
> 




From wirelesswarrior at safe-mail.net  Sun Oct 11 15:45:27 2015
From: wirelesswarrior at safe-mail.net (wirelesswarrior at safe-mail.net)
Date: Sun, 11 Oct 2015 18:45:27 -0400
Subject: [cryptome] Re: Why cryptome sold web logs to their
 payingcustomers?
Message-ID: <N1B-9Pp2-R8Pi5@Safe-mail.net>

Despite almost two decades of cypherpunk activity I cannot fathom why U.S. residents operate sites clearly in the cross-hairs of intel agencies. Have they never heard of non-resident nominee officers and directors? All U.S. resident people dealing with the site should be bona fide contractors so they aren't subject to either receiving or implementing court orders or NSLs.

-------- Original Message --------
From: bbrewer <bbrewer at littledystopia.net>
Apparently from: cypherpunks-bounces at cpunks.org
To: Michael Best <themikebest at gmail.com>
Cc: cpunks <cypherpunks at cpunks.org>, cryptome <cryptome at freelists.org>
Subject: Re: [cryptome] Re: Why cryptome sold web logs to their payingcustomers?
Date: Sun, 11 Oct 2015 16:30:00 -0400

> 
> > On Oct 11, 2015, at 4:22 PM, Michael Best <themikebest at gmail.com> wrote:
> > 
> > Anyway to rule this out other than hearing it from John? How long before we begin to seriously consider it or assume it? 
> > 
> > And if there was a NSL, why not shut down? Why put users at ongoing risk?? 
> 
> 
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lavabit
> 
> "Levison said that he could be arrested for closing the site instead of releasing the information, and it was reported that the federal prosecutor's office had sent Levison's lawyer an e-mail to that effect.”
> 
> I’m just blabbering on suppositions here, but I wouldn’t be surprised by… anything.
> 
> -benjamin




From wirelesswarrior at safe-mail.net  Sun Oct 11 15:50:22 2015
From: wirelesswarrior at safe-mail.net (wirelesswarrior at safe-mail.net)
Date: Sun, 11 Oct 2015 18:50:22 -0400
Subject: Nominee officers and directors (was: Why cryptome sold web logs...)
Message-ID: <N1B-gdbhE0RlY3@Safe-mail.net>

Despite almost two decades of cypherpunk activity I cannot fathom why U.S. residents operate sites clearly in the cross-hairs of intel agencies. Have they never heard of non-resident nominee officers and directors? All U.S. resident people dealing with the site should be bona fide contractors so they aren't subject to either receiving or implementing court orders or NSLs.

-------- Original Message --------
From: bbrewer <bbrewer at littledystopia.net>
Apparently from: cypherpunks-bounces at cpunks.org
To: Michael Best <themikebest at gmail.com>
Cc: cpunks <cypherpunks at cpunks.org>, cryptome <cryptome at freelists.org>
Subject: Re: [cryptome] Re: Why cryptome sold web logs to their payingcustomers?
Date: Sun, 11 Oct 2015 16:30:00 -0400

> 
> > On Oct 11, 2015, at 4:22 PM, Michael Best <themikebest at gmail.com> wrote:
> > 
> > Anyway to rule this out other than hearing it from John? How long before we begin to seriously consider it or assume it? 
> > 
> > And if there was a NSL, why not shut down? Why put users at ongoing risk?? 
> 
> 
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lavabit
> 
> "Levison said that he could be arrested for closing the site instead of releasing the information, and it was reported that the federal prosecutor's office had sent Levison's lawyer an e-mail to that effect.”
> 
> I’m just blabbering on suppositions here, but I wouldn’t be surprised by… anything.
> 
> -benjamin




From drjfeinstein at mail.com  Sun Oct 11 10:02:23 2015
From: drjfeinstein at mail.com (Dr. J Feinstein)
Date: Sun, 11 Oct 2015 19:02:23 +0200
Subject: Why cryptome sold web logs to their paying customers?
Message-ID: <trinity-b02ae0ca-cf2b-4a45-92a1-0e62c13073c1-1444582943216@3capp-mailcom-lxa16>

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From drjfeinstein at mail.com  Sun Oct 11 10:08:39 2015
From: drjfeinstein at mail.com (Dr. J Feinstein)
Date: Sun, 11 Oct 2015 19:08:39 +0200
Subject: Why cryptome sold web logs to their paying customers?
Message-ID: <trinity-731b0262-b3be-4de0-8d9f-731ae2425bf0-1444583318602@3capp-mailcom-lxa16>

Resend–HTML email scrubbed

Calling bullshit. Mirimirs right, this makes no sense. And JYA says netsol won't let him delete the logs but Netsol says logs are disabled by default[https://www.networksolutions.com/support/how-to-enable-download-the-web-logs/] and you have to turn them on.

So how the fuckd this really happen?

Mirimir <mirimir at riseup.net> 
Are you arguing that users could have found those logs?

I almost can't imagine that. Logs are normally in /var/log/ somewhere,
and I can't imagine making them searchable. And indeed, I can't imagine
how Cryptome archives would have included anything from /var/log/, even
after system restore from backups.

<--SNIP-->

> Should access logs be kept for that long? Absolutely not. From what I> have read in the email exchange that was posted, the log files were> included in a NetSol total restore. My guess is that John/Cryptome did> not intentionally keep these files, and did not realize these files were> included in the archive.
But that's the thing. Logs should have been in /var/log/. And how would
the "NetSol total restore" have changed that?

> When I do incremental backups or updates on my own systems, I don't> usually go back and check the integrity of files I've already archived> in my closed system. I can see where this could be an honest mistake> that has gotten blown way out of proportion. It's a good lesson to be> more aware of these types of glitches.
I still don't get how logs would have ended up in archives. Maybe JYA
prepared a special set of archives for a collaborator. Maybe for someone
helping him to understand what had happened. And then maybe he forgot
about doing that. Hard to say.




From jya at pipeline.com  Sun Oct 11 16:19:37 2015
From: jya at pipeline.com (John Young)
Date: Sun, 11 Oct 2015 19:19:37 -0400
Subject: why we need more cryptome mirrors, in all corners
In-Reply-To: <CAJVRA1QMqMQL8+At127bHNyX21jTwvdC1_O0shmisRtSE+Fo4g@mail.g
 mail.com>
References: <CAJVRA1QMqMQL8+At127bHNyX21jTwvdC1_O0shmisRtSE+Fo4g@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <E1ZlPtL-0006U6-95@elasmtp-curtail.atl.sa.earthlink.net>

And, best, no pun, every mirror unique and as flawed as their
makers, like none other, especially differing from the source
and its makers. Mirrors are mirrors, like originals, are always
illusory and evermore changing and degrading -- with crypto
and comsec and infosec.

Archives, drops, mirrors, crypto, USBs, AWstats, leaks, Wiki
fools gold. This forum a grain of a great Sahara. From these
grains mirrors of mirrors of mirrors. Forsoothed Alice to
narcissistic Bob.



At 06:45 PM 10/11/2015, you wrote:
>On 10/10/15, Shelley <shelley at misanthropia.org> wrote:
> > ...
> > The Cryptome archives *are* publicly accessible.  John limits bots and
> > leechers to a certain number of files per day (as is his right, he is
> > paying for the bandwidth), approx 100 iirc, but anyone who can use search
> > strings can find anything on the site.
>
>
>it is exceptionally difficult, short of ordering physical duplicates,
>to obtain a significant portion of cryptome archive from cryptome.org.
>
>part of this is inherent abuse - any mirror gets serious algorithmic
>beatings - akin to HackingTeam mirrors perhaps, not counting the
>mindless cloud VM bot walkers, annoying enough.  even the hidden
>service only mirrors got offensive proddings. remember, some of
>cryptome-opponents are relying on obscurity - thwarted every time some
>makes a mirror...
>
>for this, i am quite grateful to see the archive.org natsec section
>expanded with cryptome mirror!
>https://archive.org/details/nationalsecurityarchive
>
>thanks to all involved (esp. you, Michael :)
>
>
>best regards,





From carimachet at gmail.com  Sun Oct 11 09:25:43 2015
From: carimachet at gmail.com (Cari Machet)
Date: Sun, 11 Oct 2015 19:25:43 +0300
Subject: [cryptome] Re: [cryptome]
In-Reply-To: <56199BE5.7010307@riseup.net>
References: <CANFTA08aZwfZHF=wL8mV_8qhijK39RfALQ7HfoTOb+eVsHgYjQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <56187E67.5090905@riseup.net> <561943C4.4030400@riseup.net>
 <4314758.UDpymEa7mP@lapuntu> <56199BE5.7010307@riseup.net>
Message-ID: <CAGRDzQWNCCe7AUOL=-YoFUdi5+m2KPxsq30D3OJzgJjQUrMaCw@mail.gmail.com>

I second mirimir

Plus no ask to the list but said asked the list and if the point of the
reveal was to protect the community (fr john) then why was that act >
protecting the community > avoided by mike
On Oct 11, 2015 2:16 AM, "Mirimir" <mirimir at riseup.net> wrote:

> On 10/10/2015 02:40 PM, rysiek wrote:
> > Dnia sobota, 10 października 2015 09:58:44 Razer pisze:
> >> On 10/09/2015 07:56 PM, Mirimir wrote:
> >>> In my world, people don't publish stuff that puts their [friends,
> >>> allies, fellow travelers, etc] at risk. Even to make a point.
> >>
> >> Seconding Grarpamp on this.
> >
> > Are you saying John Young shouldn't have published the server logs in the
> > first place? Can't agree more!
>
> I'm saying that nobody should have published Cryptome weblogs. But for
> JYA, it was apparently carelessness. For Mike, it was apparently
> recklessness. Maybe the effect was the same. And both are avoidable. But
> they're not the same.
>
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From mirimir at riseup.net  Sun Oct 11 18:33:34 2015
From: mirimir at riseup.net (Mirimir)
Date: Sun, 11 Oct 2015 19:33:34 -0600
Subject: Why cryptome sold web logs to their paying customers?
In-Reply-To: <E1ZlQkp-0004tw-Bs@elasmtp-curtail.atl.sa.earthlink.net>
References: <trinity-731b0262-b3be-4de0-8d9f-731ae2425bf0-1444583318602@3capp-mailcom-lxa16>
 <1444598030.829859.407317641.4ED309A5@webmail.messagingengine.com>
 <561AEF73.5070309@riseup.net>
 <E1ZlQkp-0004tw-Bs@elasmtp-curtail.atl.sa.earthlink.net>
Message-ID: <561B0DEE.50009@riseup.net>

On 10/11/2015 06:15 PM, John Young wrote:
> 
>> I would not have expected Cryptome to be on shared hosting ;) But yes,
>> that would explain it.
> 
> Shared is cheap, so are we. Shared is vuln, so are we. So are the others
> despite credentials and billion-dollar armaments and above all else
> secrecy and shallow oversight. That explains it.

Thanks. I get the strategy.

But it doesn't work for me. I prefer to use pseudonyms, and to hide
behind anonymity systems. I don't trust anyone or anything more than
necessary, and I totally compartmentalize online stuff from meatspace.
It limits me, I know. No credentials. No meetings. No sharing with
meatspace friends. Not many online friends. But so it goes.

And maybe, as you imply, it's all bullshit. Time will tell ;) Or maybe,
as Uncle Bill speculated, they're just waiting me out, as my guns rust
in my hands. But hey, no problem. I have more slack to play :)

Anyway, y'all might be amused by this experiment: erehwon.dev.null
<http://dbshmc5frbchaum2.onion>. One point of the site is to fully
document itself. I welcome criticism and suggestions. I'll implement
what I can, and document it. I already know, by the way, that the site
is easy to DOS ;)




From rysiek at hackerspace.pl  Sun Oct 11 10:34:01 2015
From: rysiek at hackerspace.pl (rysiek)
Date: Sun, 11 Oct 2015 19:34:01 +0200
Subject: Ubiquitous AWStats Not the Worst
In-Reply-To: <E1ZlJL0-0001gu-NF@elasmtp-dupuy.atl.sa.earthlink.net>
References: <E1ZlJL0-0001gu-NF@elasmtp-dupuy.atl.sa.earthlink.net>
Message-ID: <2775498.4xAciBQf5x@lapuntu>

Dnia niedziela, 11 października 2015 12:28:02 John Young pisze:
> Presumably cybersec wizards have warned about the ubiquity
> of AWStats and access log files online, or maybe not, just quietly
> exploit them. There are hundreds of thousands listed on Google's.
> tip of the iceberg.
> 
> (...)

And that makes *selling* this data OK how, exactly?

-- 
Pozdrawiam,
Michał "rysiek" Woźniak

Zmieniam klucz GPG :: http://rys.io/pl/147
GPG Key Transition :: http://rys.io/en/147
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From coderman at gmail.com  Sun Oct 11 19:35:40 2015
From: coderman at gmail.com (coderman)
Date: Sun, 11 Oct 2015 19:35:40 -0700
Subject: How to go about sharing (was: one of a dozen threads about
 Cryptome)
In-Reply-To: <CANFTA09UtqeQGrp6UJx6446DnEFLtpKF2s5OHKLjJHnF6jheVg@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CANFTA09UtqeQGrp6UJx6446DnEFLtpKF2s5OHKLjJHnF6jheVg@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAJVRA1S4f++55wS+KO11LJtjUp1nuEjvE4BdtKrdP6CGPBRDpQ@mail.gmail.com>

On 10/11/15, Michael Best <themikebest at gmail.com> wrote:
> ...
> I figure with Archive.org I can distribute 99.9% of material and not worry
> about copyright, bandwidth, etc. If it turns out there's a violation I
> missed, the item gets taken down - not the entire site or all the uploads.

you may be off by an order of magnitude: 99.99% never a friction.

oddly enough, i find myself increasingly interested in the delta:
 that which is most briefly available,
  follow clues of most redacted subset - onward to the verbatim origin.


torrents resistant to selective censorship, however, also not amenable
to re-use of public resources. in a sense, this was attempted with
bigsun, able to collate across sha-256 identifier space from any
origin, at any time.  however, i have found those focused on contested
data sets have worked out their tricks over time. and the rest don't
want to touch those data pools with a seven proxy condom...


best regards,




From carimachet at gmail.com  Sun Oct 11 09:36:33 2015
From: carimachet at gmail.com (Cari Machet)
Date: Sun, 11 Oct 2015 19:36:33 +0300
Subject: [cryptome] Re: NatSecGeek
In-Reply-To: <561975f7.92c38c0a.c7a5b.fffff889@mx.google.com>
References: <CANFTA0-qPf1VhateDGgbWRuxTrua4H7fqVXJVGsg+Upx-WwfGw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAJVRA1Tujm68F6cg_o_JjjHtSC9Wxd86iEGSSeCxYW2=8xkyBQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <CANFTA0-hj_v0ezi-1qvr8X3ELmCTpzyUyTnADe-2QKQO441vKA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAGRDzQV3ps1jFwA9H2ZDL4RnMeZR7cj44Fo+U34YESonVVs-xw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CANFTA09n99=-pqgt-VDf6V5BFOk7EWGdyktaiKvJpaC4JL98cw@mail.gmail.com>
 <20151010135231.GD2694@sivokote.iziade.m$>
 <CANFTA0_ar1V2csWrdKJGPote-n24cWvO9sfs7x+B_-jzkp8Qfw@mail.gmail.com>
 <20151010140904.GE2694@sivokote.iziade.m$>
 <CANFTA09QXePNmaqoWW-XMD_fFusAq65EMewzkMsYUjnZoSeJhA@mail.gmail.com>
 <20151010141819.GF2694@sivokote.iziade.m$>
 <CANFTA08+QbS0ri+UTfkhjSRgTZ-HJ-e76KEJbSdQU45bZBeCgQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <04208030-FF28-4110-9565-14F6E97A82C6@gmail.com>
 <561975f7.92c38c0a.c7a5b.fffff889@mx.google.com>
Message-ID: <CAGRDzQUqPwwz0LCcwFNJ4nicADxh_WqUqefM8=J=wHnE0rykEA@mail.gmail.com>

The fucking wind is the biggest expert i know
On Oct 10, 2015 11:34 PM, "Juan" <juan.g71 at gmail.com> wrote:

> On Sat, 10 Oct 2015 13:38:47 -0400
> Michael Best <themikebest at gmail.com> wrote:
>
> >
> > For me, "national security" is anything a nation needs to prosper and
> > survive, including national medical care, education, ensuring a
> > healthy job market and that there's infrastructure for everyone to
> > get food, water, information, and from place to place.
>
>
>         I thought the reference to 'natsec' was derogative. Silly me.
>
>         You think all those wonderful things for the 'nation' should be
>         done by the government mafia?
>
>
>
>
> I
> > generally don't talk about that part because I only understand it in
> > the broadest terms, and the best I can do is try to listen to the
> > experts in that field
>
>         ANd who are those experts...?
>
>
>
> > and people who are smarter than me. And then
> > there's separating policy from politics...
> >
> > I hope that helps clarify some. Sorry again for assuming that your
> > question was insincere/attacking.
> >
> > Sent from my iPhone
> >
>
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From coderman at gmail.com  Sun Oct 11 19:38:00 2015
From: coderman at gmail.com (coderman)
Date: Sun, 11 Oct 2015 19:38:00 -0700
Subject: How to go about sharing (was: one of a dozen threads about
 Cryptome)
In-Reply-To: <CAKtE3zeun45bAYkm5NFbp+EE33RMabW9_H7JxKGR6d45ihaRgg@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CANFTA09UtqeQGrp6UJx6446DnEFLtpKF2s5OHKLjJHnF6jheVg@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAKtE3zeF1NkU3SBoftUzQ2ZqM54nYDcjZOoZe10hxHXiGFdwXQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAKtE3zeun45bAYkm5NFbp+EE33RMabW9_H7JxKGR6d45ihaRgg@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAJVRA1StXKAf98dZZ1tVdDSCVV+4cXR10kKx3Qqv-6kMGvYDBQ@mail.gmail.com>

On 10/11/15, Travis Biehn <tbiehn at gmail.com> wrote:
> ... Archive.org is not 'censorship resistant'.

it is however, deep capacity for the other 99.99%,
 with programmatic access (python),
  and bulk archives as well.

how can you complain about that? :)




From mirimir at riseup.net  Sun Oct 11 18:38:09 2015
From: mirimir at riseup.net (Mirimir)
Date: Sun, 11 Oct 2015 19:38:09 -0600
Subject: Why cryptome sold web logs to their paying customers?
In-Reply-To: <CAKtE3zd45tgzqW+wvJG0=9TnnXoZfR-eejAgWN3qPtm1=oPmDw@mail.gmail.com>
References: <trinity-731b0262-b3be-4de0-8d9f-731ae2425bf0-1444583318602@3capp-mailcom-lxa16>
 <1444598030.829859.407317641.4ED309A5@webmail.messagingengine.com>
 <561AEF73.5070309@riseup.net>
 <E1ZlQkp-0004tw-Bs@elasmtp-curtail.atl.sa.earthlink.net>
 <CAKtE3zd45tgzqW+wvJG0=9TnnXoZfR-eejAgWN3qPtm1=oPmDw@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <561B0F01.3010405@riseup.net>

On 10/11/2015 06:20 PM, Travis Biehn wrote:
> A billboard doesn't need much 'security.' *shrug*

Well, there are the access logs ;)

It ought to be an onion service, no? No sure bet, of course, but better
than nothing. In my opinion.

Putting it all on users is awfully lazy, I think.

> Travis
> 
> On Sun, Oct 11, 2015, 8:18 PM John Young <jya at pipeline.com> wrote:
> 
>>
>>> I would not have expected Cryptome to be on shared hosting ;) But yes,
>>> that would explain it.
>>
>> Shared is cheap, so are we. Shared is vuln, so are we. So are the others
>> despite credentials and billion-dollar armaments and above all else
>> secrecy and shallow oversight. That explains it.
>>
>>
>>
>>
> 




From carimachet at gmail.com  Sun Oct 11 09:38:17 2015
From: carimachet at gmail.com (Cari Machet)
Date: Sun, 11 Oct 2015 19:38:17 +0300
Subject: Why not P2P yet, Iceland, and "legal shit" [and: Cryptome's
 Diapers Leaking :-]
In-Reply-To: <56197b8c.ceeb8c0a.9ce72.fffff854@mx.google.com>
References: <CAD2Ti2_8B53M7YVnWsYxRC1KP3r++F8qBiVQBnDOvXcppuVOjw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAGRDzQUHc=AmuvrB91JC4-tZfFjD1HrVAYqT=5E8=3kafL6uYg@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAGRDzQXorsVOgNjZe=KUVwNMY6rwfQKb2F1yTErVuyPyeO3MWQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <56197b8c.ceeb8c0a.9ce72.fffff854@mx.google.com>
Message-ID: <CAGRDzQXeQuUekdfvH=hY7anng0tggVXPuUGO0Y4PS89WUmeWSQ@mail.gmail.com>

Oh yes how could i forget that !!!! Too many time zones thru going
On Oct 10, 2015 11:58 PM, "Juan" <juan.g71 at gmail.com> wrote:

> On Sat, 10 Oct 2015 20:18:59 +0300
> Cari Machet <carimachet at gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > IPFS http://t.co/izE9l9VWqu
>
>
>         https://freenetproject.org/
>
>
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From jya at pipeline.com  Sun Oct 11 16:52:55 2015
From: jya at pipeline.com (John Young)
Date: Sun, 11 Oct 2015 19:52:55 -0400
Subject: Why cryptome sold web logs to their paying customers?
In-Reply-To: <trinity-36cf8f17-4a59-44ec-b1b1-5515aa09c682-1444604059313
 @3capp-mailcom-lxa15>
References: <trinity-731b0262-b3be-4de0-8d9f-731ae2425bf0-1444583318602@3capp-mailcom-lxa16>
 <1444598030.829859.407317641.4ED309A5@webmail.messagingengine.com>
 <trinity-b3ad17af-4e1b-4f86-9947-45853cfd1f4c-1444598654915@3capp-mailcom-lxa08>
 <CAKtE3zexn9=fi1v_-7r0snYT+_+mG=ZZazfbkwoQaOFsYBat=A@mail.gmail.com>
 <trinity-36cf8f17-4a59-44ec-b1b1-5515aa09c682-1444604059313@3capp-mailcom-lxa15>
Message-ID: <E1ZlQPQ-0008H8-7V@elasmtp-galgo.atl.sa.earthlink.net>

At 06:54 PM 10/11/2015, you wrote:

>So why does Netsol contradict JYA about the log settings?

NetSol is a bundle of contradictions, the essence of ISPs.

We have always logged the actions of our ISPs and their ISPs,
upstream and downstream, services and support, security and vulns.
So too mail lists, SM, chats, as instructed by this forum and its many
offshoots working all sides, warning of perfidy to hide perfidy.

Check those links we posted about how the spies work this fertile
terrain of paranoia and over-confidence, feeding the wired and wireless
news machine, advertisers and officials, now cybersecurity being
ratcheted up to WMD level. Coders as glamorous as physicists.
Nobels and MacArthurs acoming. And the opportunist anti-coders
smelling the coffee of protests. Cryptographers facing the opprobrium
of WMD-makers when the public grasps what fools they have been
taken for through the same old scam, public protection requires
ever greater national secrecy among the select. Unbreakable crypto
then declared illegal everywhere, and only cryptographers know
what unbreakable means: smoke and mirrors, lots of mirrors.






From coderman at gmail.com  Sun Oct 11 20:04:36 2015
From: coderman at gmail.com (coderman)
Date: Sun, 11 Oct 2015 20:04:36 -0700
Subject: Why Mirimir outlived the canaries in the coal mine
Message-ID: <CAJVRA1SHFyNpN-x2xwr64eqK2aCNtBfqyxq9a0CMAbAKE2-5jA@mail.gmail.com>

On 10/11/15, Mirimir <mirimir at riseup.net> wrote:
> ... I prefer to use pseudonyms, and to hide
> behind anonymity systems. I don't trust anyone or anything more than
> necessary, and I totally compartmentalize online stuff from meatspace.
> It limits me, I know. No credentials. No meetings. No sharing with
> meatspace friends. Not many online friends. But so it goes.

some of us must push the bounds, must we not?
 lest the measure of appropriate protection remain an abstract unknown.

it's hard to tell afore how dice come down,
 as brave inspiration, or
  cautionary tale.


best regards,




From jya at pipeline.com  Sun Oct 11 17:06:20 2015
From: jya at pipeline.com (John Young)
Date: Sun, 11 Oct 2015 20:06:20 -0400
Subject: Nominee officers and directors (was: Why cryptome sold web
 logs...)
In-Reply-To: <N1B-gdbhE0RlY3@Safe-mail.net>
References: <N1B-gdbhE0RlY3@Safe-mail.net>
Message-ID: <E1ZlQcM-0000v7-5c@elasmtp-kukur.atl.sa.earthlink.net>

We welcome NSLs, tango downs, malware, shutdowns, DMCA demands,
hacks, official visits and warnings, 
fingerpointing and accusations, subpoenas,
and indictments. If happened, published. No indictments, yet.

"Bluffs will be published if comical but otherwise ignored."

Our geriatric blurb:

Cryptome welcomes documents for publication that are prohibited by
governments worldwide, in particular material on freedom of expression,
privacy, cryptology, dual-use technologies, national security, intelligence,
and secret governance -- open, secret and classified documents -- but
not limited to those. Documents are removed from this site only by order
served directly by a US court having jurisdiction. No court order has ever
been served; any order served will be published here -- or elsewhere
if gagged by order. Bluffs will be published if comical but otherwise
ignored.



At 06:50 PM 10/11/2015, you wrote:
>Despite almost two decades of cypherpunk 
>activity I cannot fathom why U.S. residents 
>operate sites clearly in the cross-hairs of 
>intel agencies. Have they never heard of 
>non-resident nominee officers and directors? All 
>U.S. resident people dealing with the site 
>should be bona fide contractors so they aren't 
>subject to either receiving or implementing court orders or NSLs.
>
>-------- Original Message --------
>From: bbrewer <bbrewer at littledystopia.net>
>Apparently from: cypherpunks-bounces at cpunks.org
>To: Michael Best <themikebest at gmail.com>
>Cc: cpunks <cypherpunks at cpunks.org>, cryptome <cryptome at freelists.org>
>Subject: Re: [cryptome] Re: Why cryptome sold 
>web logs to their payingcustomers?
>Date: Sun, 11 Oct 2015 16:30:00 -0400
>
> >
> > > On Oct 11, 2015, at 4:22 PM, Michael Best <themikebest at gmail.com> wrote:
> > >
> > > Anyway to rule this out other than hearing 
> it from John? How long before we begin to seriously consider it or assume it?
> > >
> > > And if there was a NSL, why not shut down? 
> Why put users at ongoing risk??
> >
> >
> > https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lavabit
> >
> > "Levison said that he could be arrested for 
> closing the site instead of releasing the 
> information, and it was reported that the 
> federal prosecutor's office had sent Levison's 
> lawyer an e-mail to that effect.”
> >
> > I’m just blabbering on suppositions here, 
> but I wouldn’t be surprised by
 anything.
> >
> > -benjamin






From jya at pipeline.com  Sun Oct 11 17:15:07 2015
From: jya at pipeline.com (John Young)
Date: Sun, 11 Oct 2015 20:15:07 -0400
Subject: Why cryptome sold web logs to their paying customers?
In-Reply-To: <561AEF73.5070309@riseup.net>
References: <trinity-731b0262-b3be-4de0-8d9f-731ae2425bf0-1444583318602@3capp-mailcom-lxa16>
 <1444598030.829859.407317641.4ED309A5@webmail.messagingengine.com>
 <561AEF73.5070309@riseup.net>
Message-ID: <E1ZlQkp-0004tw-Bs@elasmtp-curtail.atl.sa.earthlink.net>


>I would not have expected Cryptome to be on shared hosting ;) But yes,
>that would explain it.

Shared is cheap, so are we. Shared is vuln, so are we. So are the others
despite credentials and billion-dollar armaments and above all else
secrecy and shallow oversight. That explains it.






From mirimir at riseup.net  Sun Oct 11 19:15:19 2015
From: mirimir at riseup.net (Mirimir)
Date: Sun, 11 Oct 2015 20:15:19 -0600
Subject: Why cryptome sold web logs to their paying customers?
In-Reply-To: <CAKtE3zek5qGCtTokXgnkRQuK94GCShKaSEDj5PuL10rjXsx16Q@mail.gmail.com>
References: <trinity-731b0262-b3be-4de0-8d9f-731ae2425bf0-1444583318602@3capp-mailcom-lxa16>
 <1444598030.829859.407317641.4ED309A5@webmail.messagingengine.com>
 <561AEF73.5070309@riseup.net>
 <E1ZlQkp-0004tw-Bs@elasmtp-curtail.atl.sa.earthlink.net>
 <CAKtE3zd45tgzqW+wvJG0=9TnnXoZfR-eejAgWN3qPtm1=oPmDw@mail.gmail.com>
 <561B0F01.3010405@riseup.net>
 <CAKtE3zek5qGCtTokXgnkRQuK94GCShKaSEDj5PuL10rjXsx16Q@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <561B17B7.4050600@riseup.net>

On 10/11/2015 07:49 PM, Travis Biehn wrote:
> I'd rather have what you call 'lazy' over nothing.

Look, I mean no disrespect to Cryptome. But I do think that there ought
to be a warning for users to protect themselves, if they don't want
their access logged by everyone and their little yellow dog.

> The ideal is all distribution modes available: "Keep the info off the dark
> web, off the deep web and in the search indexes."
> 
> Cryptome shows up on google searches. Your onion does not.

Well, Cryptome has been around for about 20 years, so hey ;)

But Google is indexing it. And it shows up well enough in relevant
searches. But I haven't been promoting it very much.

> -Travis
> 
> On Sun, Oct 11, 2015 at 9:38 PM, Mirimir <mirimir at riseup.net> wrote:
> 
>> On 10/11/2015 06:20 PM, Travis Biehn wrote:
>>> A billboard doesn't need much 'security.' *shrug*
>>
>> Well, there are the access logs ;)
>>
>> It ought to be an onion service, no? No sure bet, of course, but better
>> than nothing. In my opinion.
>>
>> Putting it all on users is awfully lazy, I think.
>>
>>> Travis
>>>
>>> On Sun, Oct 11, 2015, 8:18 PM John Young <jya at pipeline.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>>
>>>>> I would not have expected Cryptome to be on shared hosting ;) But yes,
>>>>> that would explain it.
>>>>
>>>> Shared is cheap, so are we. Shared is vuln, so are we. So are the others
>>>> despite credentials and billion-dollar armaments and above all else
>>>> secrecy and shallow oversight. That explains it.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>
> 
> 
> 




From jya at pipeline.com  Sun Oct 11 17:21:24 2015
From: jya at pipeline.com (John Young)
Date: Sun, 11 Oct 2015 20:21:24 -0400
Subject: ***SPAM*** Re: Why cryptome sold web logs to their paying
 customers?
In-Reply-To: <trinity-442ecc90-bbea-45f3-83de-8f55aadba5de-1444608189348
 @3capp-mailcom-lxa15>
References: <trinity-731b0262-b3be-4de0-8d9f-731ae2425bf0-1444583318602@3capp-mailcom-lxa16>
 <1444598030.829859.407317641.4ED309A5@webmail.messagingengine.com>
 <trinity-b3ad17af-4e1b-4f86-9947-45853cfd1f4c-1444598654915@3capp-mailcom-lxa08>
 <CAKtE3zexn9=fi1v_-7r0snYT+_+mG=ZZazfbkwoQaOFsYBat=A@mail.gmail.com>
 <trinity-36cf8f17-4a59-44ec-b1b1-5515aa09c682-1444604059313@3capp-mailcom-lxa15>
 <E1ZlQPQ-0008H8-7V@elasmtp-galgo.atl.sa.earthlink.net>
 <trinity-442ecc90-bbea-45f3-83de-8f55aadba5de-1444608189348@3capp-mailcom-lxa15>
Message-ID: <E1ZlQqs-0004zf-Hg@elasmtp-masked.atl.sa.earthlink.net>

At 08:03 PM 10/11/2015, you wrote:
>The Netsol support pages are disinfo? bullshit

They are indeed that. Requests languor unanswered.
Nowadays standard business practice, off-shore no longer
reliable either. Just don't respond. Get bought out by
Web.com and slowly disappear after handing over decades
of user data for exploitation. The Apple future, or maybe
present if hobnobbing with US and CN leaders give a
clue.





From mirimir at riseup.net  Sun Oct 11 19:50:18 2015
From: mirimir at riseup.net (Mirimir)
Date: Sun, 11 Oct 2015 20:50:18 -0600
Subject: Why cryptome sold web logs to their paying customers?
In-Reply-To: <CAKtE3zczPis1D1H-Sh8v_sj-rEQtSUK36JLKuJ5fBur9YBeubw@mail.gmail.com>
References: <trinity-731b0262-b3be-4de0-8d9f-731ae2425bf0-1444583318602@3capp-mailcom-lxa16>
 <1444598030.829859.407317641.4ED309A5@webmail.messagingengine.com>
 <561AEF73.5070309@riseup.net>
 <E1ZlQkp-0004tw-Bs@elasmtp-curtail.atl.sa.earthlink.net>
 <CAKtE3zd45tgzqW+wvJG0=9TnnXoZfR-eejAgWN3qPtm1=oPmDw@mail.gmail.com>
 <561B0F01.3010405@riseup.net>
 <CAKtE3zek5qGCtTokXgnkRQuK94GCShKaSEDj5PuL10rjXsx16Q@mail.gmail.com>
 <561B17B7.4050600@riseup.net>
 <CAKtE3zczPis1D1H-Sh8v_sj-rEQtSUK36JLKuJ5fBur9YBeubw@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <561B1FEA.7050006@riseup.net>

On 10/11/2015 08:31 PM, Travis Biehn wrote:
> Your onion or your clearsite?

What clearsite? One aspect of the design is that lighttpd runs in a VM
that can't see the Internet except through a Tor-gateway VM.

> How do you establish that your onion and clearsite host the same content?

Running a clearsite just doesn't work for me. It would paint too big a
target on the server. Anyone not using Tor can just use
<http://dbshmc5frbchaum2.onion.link/>.

> How do you federate changes from your onion to your clearsite?
> What do you do if your clearsite gets seized and used to serve up TAO
> payloads?

Don't have a clearsite :)

> How do you prevent your upstream from logging the IP addresses that hit
> port 80 and 443? The size of those messages (you know the https sizing
> attacks which can reveal which particular pages your visitors are on,
> right)?

Upstream = Tor. And sure, maybe Tor gets hosed.

> How do you make your visitors aware of the above and more? How do you
> ensure that they saw your message?

Look at my front page :)

> -Travis
> 
> On Sun, Oct 11, 2015 at 10:15 PM, Mirimir <mirimir at riseup.net> wrote:
> 
>> On 10/11/2015 07:49 PM, Travis Biehn wrote:
>>> I'd rather have what you call 'lazy' over nothing.
>>
>> Look, I mean no disrespect to Cryptome. But I do think that there ought
>> to be a warning for users to protect themselves, if they don't want
>> their access logged by everyone and their little yellow dog.
>>
>>> The ideal is all distribution modes available: "Keep the info off the
>> dark
>>> web, off the deep web and in the search indexes."
>>>
>>> Cryptome shows up on google searches. Your onion does not.
>>
>> Well, Cryptome has been around for about 20 years, so hey ;)
>>
>> But Google is indexing it. And it shows up well enough in relevant
>> searches. But I haven't been promoting it very much.
>>
>>> -Travis
>>>
>>> On Sun, Oct 11, 2015 at 9:38 PM, Mirimir <mirimir at riseup.net> wrote:
>>>
>>>> On 10/11/2015 06:20 PM, Travis Biehn wrote:
>>>>> A billboard doesn't need much 'security.' *shrug*
>>>>
>>>> Well, there are the access logs ;)
>>>>
>>>> It ought to be an onion service, no? No sure bet, of course, but better
>>>> than nothing. In my opinion.
>>>>
>>>> Putting it all on users is awfully lazy, I think.
>>>>
>>>>> Travis
>>>>>
>>>>> On Sun, Oct 11, 2015, 8:18 PM John Young <jya at pipeline.com> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> I would not have expected Cryptome to be on shared hosting ;) But
>> yes,
>>>>>>> that would explain it.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Shared is cheap, so are we. Shared is vuln, so are we. So are the
>> others
>>>>>> despite credentials and billion-dollar armaments and above all else
>>>>>> secrecy and shallow oversight. That explains it.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>
> 
> 
> 




From themikebest at gmail.com  Sun Oct 11 17:53:27 2015
From: themikebest at gmail.com (Michael Best)
Date: Sun, 11 Oct 2015 20:53:27 -0400
Subject: Why cryptome sold web logs to their paying customers?
Message-ID: <CANFTA09pppGsfA85-L_+-nOt5uK1Ov2G=tWf7MCYab9YrrsNoA@mail.gmail.com>

Normally I'd give you the benefit of the doubt, John, but the last time in
this discussion you said something was disinfo it was the logs.


> Date: Sun, 11 Oct 2015 20:21:24 -0400
> From: John Young <jya at pipeline.com>
> To: cypherpunks at cpunks.org
> Subject: Re: ***SPAM*** Re: Why cryptome sold web logs to their paying
>         customers?
> Message-ID: <E1ZlQqs-0004zf-Hg at elasmtp-masked.atl.sa.earthlink.net>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed
>
> At 08:03 PM 10/11/2015, you wrote:
> >The Netsol support pages are disinfo? bullshit
>
> They are indeed that. Requests languor unanswered.
> Nowadays standard business practice, off-shore no longer
> reliable either. Just don't respond. Get bought out by
> Web.com and slowly disappear after handing over decades
> of user data for exploitation. The Apple future, or maybe
> present if hobnobbing with US and CN leaders give a
> clue.
>
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From themikebest at gmail.com  Sun Oct 11 18:13:08 2015
From: themikebest at gmail.com (Michael Best)
Date: Sun, 11 Oct 2015 21:13:08 -0400
Subject: Why cryptome sold web logs to their paying customers?
In-Reply-To: <CAKtE3zc5fgtnJ3q2reZUmYbSHsa9YQrO176XHmqpLaGbVCY66A@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CANFTA09pppGsfA85-L_+-nOt5uK1Ov2G=tWf7MCYab9YrrsNoA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAJVRA1RDiSwYi=udi-ZYnc5f0TL32wGt4Lqmf1jxog42JJeBmQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAKtE3zc5fgtnJ3q2reZUmYbSHsa9YQrO176XHmqpLaGbVCY66A@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CANFTA0-x5rWe6KvSqmErY2HzkD2MYFyGfd4q7b=1mY+ty0+4nQ@mail.gmail.com>

Is it my turn? Where's the line?

On Sun, Oct 11, 2015 at 9:11 PM, Travis Biehn <tbiehn at gmail.com> wrote:

> Lots of rabble rousing. Nobody willing to take deb&jyas place on the
> chopping block.
>
> If you can do it better, get to it.
>
> Travis
>
> On Sun, Oct 11, 2015, 9:05 PM coderman <coderman at gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> On 10/11/15, Michael Best <themikebest at gmail.com> wrote:
>> > Normally I'd give you the benefit of the doubt, John, but the last time
>> in
>> > this discussion you said something was disinfo it was the logs.
>>
>> i have hated network solutions since '98.
>>
>> you're free to buy their services, if you'd like to confirm first person.
>> :)
>>
>> all of us are wondering what will finally be the straw too far for John...
>>
>
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From themikebest at gmail.com  Sun Oct 11 18:16:15 2015
From: themikebest at gmail.com (Michael Best)
Date: Sun, 11 Oct 2015 21:16:15 -0400
Subject: Why cryptome sold web logs to their paying customers?
In-Reply-To: <CAJVRA1RDiSwYi=udi-ZYnc5f0TL32wGt4Lqmf1jxog42JJeBmQ@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CANFTA09pppGsfA85-L_+-nOt5uK1Ov2G=tWf7MCYab9YrrsNoA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAJVRA1RDiSwYi=udi-ZYnc5f0TL32wGt4Lqmf1jxog42JJeBmQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CANFTA09N1RxaE1e05T2U64-KmBQvAhD0h8bWeLZoDnHPOwkVtQ@mail.gmail.com>

Ok, then I won't second guess why put up with it - I've avoided traditional
web hosts because of all the headaches I had a few years ago. Maxed out on
bandwidth, database calls, memory usage, etc. Only started aharing my
archives online again when I decided to use archive.org and neocities.

On Sun, Oct 11, 2015 at 9:01 PM, coderman <coderman at gmail.com> wrote:

> On 10/11/15, Michael Best <themikebest at gmail.com> wrote:
> > Normally I'd give you the benefit of the doubt, John, but the last time
> in
> > this discussion you said something was disinfo it was the logs.
>
> i have hated network solutions since '98.
>
> you're free to buy their services, if you'd like to confirm first person.
> :)
>
> all of us are wondering what will finally be the straw too far for John...
>
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From tbiehn at gmail.com  Sun Oct 11 18:32:54 2015
From: tbiehn at gmail.com (Travis Biehn)
Date: Sun, 11 Oct 2015 21:32:54 -0400
Subject: Why cryptome sold web logs to their paying customers?
In-Reply-To: <CANFTA09N1RxaE1e05T2U64-KmBQvAhD0h8bWeLZoDnHPOwkVtQ@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CANFTA09pppGsfA85-L_+-nOt5uK1Ov2G=tWf7MCYab9YrrsNoA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAJVRA1RDiSwYi=udi-ZYnc5f0TL32wGt4Lqmf1jxog42JJeBmQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <CANFTA09N1RxaE1e05T2U64-KmBQvAhD0h8bWeLZoDnHPOwkVtQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAKtE3zdpESCig4sRatFsHDFrrM35eXkm30qBTr_NNQ5PdiK1-g@mail.gmail.com>

You can start by re-posting the leaked traffic logs... (Editorial
discretion is frowned upon amongst the idealists.)

Maybe set up an onion, host on i2p, freenet (hehehe), ethereum, the
blockchain, torrents. Spread it far and wide, set up a PKI, set up a WOT,
keep it all offline.

If you're a real masochist you'll host the docs on some crazy 'website'
with no indirection protecting you from legal/illegal/TLA action. Keep the
info off the dark web, off the deep web and in the search indexes.

Warrant canary (which won't work), encryption (you won't be safe) and
signatures (secrets will be stolen.)

If you think you can survive as well as JYA, Deb & fare better than
Assange, go for it. Be prepared.

It doesn't pay very well. You'd have to be crazy to do this.

-Travis

On Sun, Oct 11, 2015 at 9:16 PM, Michael Best <themikebest at gmail.com> wrote:

> Ok, then I won't second guess why put up with it - I've avoided
> traditional web hosts because of all the headaches I had a few years ago.
> Maxed out on bandwidth, database calls, memory usage, etc. Only started
> aharing my archives online again when I decided to use archive.org and
> neocities.
>
> On Sun, Oct 11, 2015 at 9:01 PM, coderman <coderman at gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> On 10/11/15, Michael Best <themikebest at gmail.com> wrote:
>> > Normally I'd give you the benefit of the doubt, John, but the last time
>> in
>> > this discussion you said something was disinfo it was the logs.
>>
>> i have hated network solutions since '98.
>>
>> you're free to buy their services, if you'd like to confirm first person.
>> :)
>>
>> all of us are wondering what will finally be the straw too far for John...
>>
>
>


-- 
Twitter <https://twitter.com/tbiehn> | LinkedIn
<http://www.linkedin.com/in/travisbiehn> | GitHub <http://github.com/tbiehn>
| TravisBiehn.com <http://www.travisbiehn.com> | Google Plus
<https://plus.google.com/+TravisBiehn>
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From themikebest at gmail.com  Sun Oct 11 18:36:06 2015
From: themikebest at gmail.com (Michael Best)
Date: Sun, 11 Oct 2015 21:36:06 -0400
Subject: Why cryptome sold web logs to their paying customers?
In-Reply-To: <CAKtE3zdpESCig4sRatFsHDFrrM35eXkm30qBTr_NNQ5PdiK1-g@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CANFTA09pppGsfA85-L_+-nOt5uK1Ov2G=tWf7MCYab9YrrsNoA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAJVRA1RDiSwYi=udi-ZYnc5f0TL32wGt4Lqmf1jxog42JJeBmQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <CANFTA09N1RxaE1e05T2U64-KmBQvAhD0h8bWeLZoDnHPOwkVtQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAKtE3zdpESCig4sRatFsHDFrrM35eXkm30qBTr_NNQ5PdiK1-g@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CANFTA09=30x1ADKB54MVWiCSK42LPwxurpM_kYgEOLzZMMq+Pw@mail.gmail.com>

http://cdn.meme.am/instances/500x/46177132.jpg

On Sun, Oct 11, 2015 at 9:32 PM, Travis Biehn <tbiehn at gmail.com> wrote:

> You can start by re-posting the leaked traffic logs... (Editorial
> discretion is frowned upon amongst the idealists.)
>
> Maybe set up an onion, host on i2p, freenet (hehehe), ethereum, the
> blockchain, torrents. Spread it far and wide, set up a PKI, set up a WOT,
> keep it all offline.
>
> If you're a real masochist you'll host the docs on some crazy 'website'
> with no indirection protecting you from legal/illegal/TLA action. Keep the
> info off the dark web, off the deep web and in the search indexes.
>
> Warrant canary (which won't work), encryption (you won't be safe) and
> signatures (secrets will be stolen.)
>
> If you think you can survive as well as JYA, Deb & fare better than
> Assange, go for it. Be prepared.
>
> It doesn't pay very well. You'd have to be crazy to do this.
>
> -Travis
>
> On Sun, Oct 11, 2015 at 9:16 PM, Michael Best <themikebest at gmail.com>
> wrote:
>
>> Ok, then I won't second guess why put up with it - I've avoided
>> traditional web hosts because of all the headaches I had a few years ago.
>> Maxed out on bandwidth, database calls, memory usage, etc. Only started
>> aharing my archives online again when I decided to use archive.org and
>> neocities.
>>
>> On Sun, Oct 11, 2015 at 9:01 PM, coderman <coderman at gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>>> On 10/11/15, Michael Best <themikebest at gmail.com> wrote:
>>> > Normally I'd give you the benefit of the doubt, John, but the last
>>> time in
>>> > this discussion you said something was disinfo it was the logs.
>>>
>>> i have hated network solutions since '98.
>>>
>>> you're free to buy their services, if you'd like to confirm first
>>> person. :)
>>>
>>> all of us are wondering what will finally be the straw too far for
>>> John...
>>>
>>
>>
>
>
> --
> Twitter <https://twitter.com/tbiehn> | LinkedIn
> <http://www.linkedin.com/in/travisbiehn> | GitHub
> <http://github.com/tbiehn> | TravisBiehn.com <http://www.travisbiehn.com> |
> Google Plus <https://plus.google.com/+TravisBiehn>
>
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From mirimir at riseup.net  Sun Oct 11 20:39:25 2015
From: mirimir at riseup.net (Mirimir)
Date: Sun, 11 Oct 2015 21:39:25 -0600
Subject: Why cryptome sold web logs to their paying customers?
In-Reply-To: <CAKtE3zc2ZzgQq76MfT==brQVXsTeJbNs_2gv1Othiwkie8jBMw@mail.gmail.com>
References: <trinity-731b0262-b3be-4de0-8d9f-731ae2425bf0-1444583318602@3capp-mailcom-lxa16>
 <1444598030.829859.407317641.4ED309A5@webmail.messagingengine.com>
 <561AEF73.5070309@riseup.net>
 <E1ZlQkp-0004tw-Bs@elasmtp-curtail.atl.sa.earthlink.net>
 <CAKtE3zd45tgzqW+wvJG0=9TnnXoZfR-eejAgWN3qPtm1=oPmDw@mail.gmail.com>
 <561B0F01.3010405@riseup.net>
 <CAKtE3zek5qGCtTokXgnkRQuK94GCShKaSEDj5PuL10rjXsx16Q@mail.gmail.com>
 <561B17B7.4050600@riseup.net>
 <CAKtE3zczPis1D1H-Sh8v_sj-rEQtSUK36JLKuJ5fBur9YBeubw@mail.gmail.com>
 <561B1FEA.7050006@riseup.net>
 <CAKtE3zc2ZzgQq76MfT==brQVXsTeJbNs_2gv1Othiwkie8jBMw@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <561B2B6D.5040001@riseup.net>

On 10/11/2015 08:57 PM, Travis Biehn wrote:
> onion.link is an untrusted, upstream CDN, no?

Yes, so use Tor :)

> On Sun, Oct 11, 2015 at 10:50 PM, Mirimir <mirimir at riseup.net> wrote:
> 
>> On 10/11/2015 08:31 PM, Travis Biehn wrote:
>>> Your onion or your clearsite?
>>
>> What clearsite? One aspect of the design is that lighttpd runs in a VM
>> that can't see the Internet except through a Tor-gateway VM.
>>
>>> How do you establish that your onion and clearsite host the same content?
>>
>> Running a clearsite just doesn't work for me. It would paint too big a
>> target on the server. Anyone not using Tor can just use
>> <http://dbshmc5frbchaum2.onion.link/>.
>>
>>> How do you federate changes from your onion to your clearsite?
>>> What do you do if your clearsite gets seized and used to serve up TAO
>>> payloads?
>>
>> Don't have a clearsite :)
>>
>>> How do you prevent your upstream from logging the IP addresses that hit
>>> port 80 and 443? The size of those messages (you know the https sizing
>>> attacks which can reveal which particular pages your visitors are on,
>>> right)?
>>
>> Upstream = Tor. And sure, maybe Tor gets hosed.
>>
>>> How do you make your visitors aware of the above and more? How do you
>>> ensure that they saw your message?
>>
>> Look at my front page :)
>>
>>> -Travis
>>>
>>> On Sun, Oct 11, 2015 at 10:15 PM, Mirimir <mirimir at riseup.net> wrote:
>>>
>>>> On 10/11/2015 07:49 PM, Travis Biehn wrote:
>>>>> I'd rather have what you call 'lazy' over nothing.
>>>>
>>>> Look, I mean no disrespect to Cryptome. But I do think that there ought
>>>> to be a warning for users to protect themselves, if they don't want
>>>> their access logged by everyone and their little yellow dog.
>>>>
>>>>> The ideal is all distribution modes available: "Keep the info off the
>>>> dark
>>>>> web, off the deep web and in the search indexes."
>>>>>
>>>>> Cryptome shows up on google searches. Your onion does not.
>>>>
>>>> Well, Cryptome has been around for about 20 years, so hey ;)
>>>>
>>>> But Google is indexing it. And it shows up well enough in relevant
>>>> searches. But I haven't been promoting it very much.
>>>>
>>>>> -Travis
>>>>>
>>>>> On Sun, Oct 11, 2015 at 9:38 PM, Mirimir <mirimir at riseup.net> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> On 10/11/2015 06:20 PM, Travis Biehn wrote:
>>>>>>> A billboard doesn't need much 'security.' *shrug*
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Well, there are the access logs ;)
>>>>>>
>>>>>> It ought to be an onion service, no? No sure bet, of course, but
>> better
>>>>>> than nothing. In my opinion.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Putting it all on users is awfully lazy, I think.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Travis
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> On Sun, Oct 11, 2015, 8:18 PM John Young <jya at pipeline.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> I would not have expected Cryptome to be on shared hosting ;) But
>>>> yes,
>>>>>>>>> that would explain it.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Shared is cheap, so are we. Shared is vuln, so are we. So are the
>>>> others
>>>>>>>> despite credentials and billion-dollar armaments and above all else
>>>>>>>> secrecy and shallow oversight. That explains it.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>
> 
> 
> 




From tbiehn at gmail.com  Sun Oct 11 14:43:31 2015
From: tbiehn at gmail.com (Travis Biehn)
Date: Sun, 11 Oct 2015 21:43:31 +0000
Subject: Why cryptome sold web logs to their paying customers?
In-Reply-To: <trinity-b3ad17af-4e1b-4f86-9947-45853cfd1f4c-1444598654915@3capp-mailcom-lxa08>
References: <trinity-731b0262-b3be-4de0-8d9f-731ae2425bf0-1444583318602@3capp-mailcom-lxa16>
 <1444598030.829859.407317641.4ED309A5@webmail.messagingengine.com>
 <trinity-b3ad17af-4e1b-4f86-9947-45853cfd1f4c-1444598654915@3capp-mailcom-lxa08>
Message-ID: <CAKtE3zexn9=fi1v_-7r0snYT+_+mG=ZZazfbkwoQaOFsYBat=A@mail.gmail.com>

It's simple.
Someone made a mistake. Best was initially assumed full of shit by JYA, as
he's a neophyte - and is consistently 'off-message' for this list.

Others, wishing to read more into it, other than face value of hubris, see
plans within plans.

At the end of the day, Bests' disclosures amount to nothing of consequence.
At best he overhyped them, being a neophyte. At worst he's JTRIGd the list,
hilariously easily. The technical cognoscenti on the list stay quiet, "code
compiling" as the good doctor says.

In general, this oversight is valuable because it demonstrates one thing:
Even if you try to delete it.
If there's a signal it will leak. Purposefully or not.

When the protocol you use doesn't provide metadata anonymity, don't expect
it because you won't get it. If you don't understand this - keep studying.

Why guess at 'motivation'? Do we need to FUD yet another leaker site? Put
your money where your mouth is - improve it, donate, write your own, fix
the bug & plug the hole.

Travis

On Sun, Oct 11, 2015, 5:28 PM Dr. J Feinstein <drjfeinstein at mail.com> wrote:

> Maybe, but why those foldersmonths only? Itd be good to hear from JYA,
> especially b/c Netsol contradicts him.
>
> > Sent: Sunday, October 11, 2015 at 9:13 PM
> > From: "Alfie John" <alfiej at fastmail.fm>
> > To: cypherpunks at cpunks.org
> > Subject: Re: Why cryptome sold web logs to their paying customers?
> >
> > On Mon, Oct 12, 2015, at 04:08 AM, Dr. J Feinstein wrote:
> > > Resend–HTML email scrubbed
> > >
> > > Calling bullshit. Mirimirs right, this makes no sense. And JYA says
> > > netsol won't let him delete the logs but Netsol says logs are disabled
> > > by default[
> > >
> https://www.networksolutions.com/support/how-to-enable-download-the-web-logs/
> ]
> > > and you have to turn them on.
> > >
> > > So how the fuckd this really happen?
> > >
> > > Mirimir <mirimir at riseup.net> Are you arguing that users could have
> > > found those logs?
> > >
> > > I almost can't imagine that. Logs are normally in /var/log/ somewhere,
> > > and I can't imagine making them searchable. And indeed, I can't
> > > imagine how Cryptome archives would have included anything from
> > > /var/log/, even after system restore from backups.
> > >
> > > <--SNIP-->
> > >
> > > > Should access logs be kept for that long? Absolutely not. From what
> > > > I> have read in the email exchange that was posted, the log files
> > > > were> included in a NetSol total restore. My guess is that
> > > > John/Cryptome did> not intentionally keep these files, and did not
> > > > realize these files were> included in the archive.
> > > But that's the thing. Logs should have been in /var/log/. And how
> > > would the "NetSol total restore" have changed that?
> >
> > Not necessarily...
> >
> > Logs in /var/log is where they should be by default, but if the box is
> > on a shared hosting account, then things are completely different. For
> > instance, Bluehost charges $3.95/month, which gets you a home directory
> > on a box shared with hundreds of other users. In your home directory,
> > you get something like (from memory, which was a long, long time ago):
> >
> >   ~/
> >   ~/public_www/
> >   ~/public_www/html/
> >   ~/public_www/access_log
> >   ~/public_www/error_log
> >
> > So as you can see, the user does have permissions to access logs, but
> > are kept in the user's _home_ directory. Now you can see why this could
> > have mistakenly been distributed:
> >
> >   tar zcf cryptome-backup.tar.gz ~/
> >
> > The backup would have also slurped in all the logs. There was no malice,
> > just an easy mistake that everyone here could have make given the same
> > circumstances.
> >
> > Alfie
> >
> > --
> >   Alfie John
> >   alfiej at fastmail.fm
> >
> >
>
>
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From tbiehn at gmail.com  Sun Oct 11 18:49:18 2015
From: tbiehn at gmail.com (Travis Biehn)
Date: Sun, 11 Oct 2015 21:49:18 -0400
Subject: Why cryptome sold web logs to their paying customers?
In-Reply-To: <561B0F01.3010405@riseup.net>
References: <trinity-731b0262-b3be-4de0-8d9f-731ae2425bf0-1444583318602@3capp-mailcom-lxa16>
 <1444598030.829859.407317641.4ED309A5@webmail.messagingengine.com>
 <561AEF73.5070309@riseup.net>
 <E1ZlQkp-0004tw-Bs@elasmtp-curtail.atl.sa.earthlink.net>
 <CAKtE3zd45tgzqW+wvJG0=9TnnXoZfR-eejAgWN3qPtm1=oPmDw@mail.gmail.com>
 <561B0F01.3010405@riseup.net>
Message-ID: <CAKtE3zek5qGCtTokXgnkRQuK94GCShKaSEDj5PuL10rjXsx16Q@mail.gmail.com>

I'd rather have what you call 'lazy' over nothing.

The ideal is all distribution modes available: "Keep the info off the dark
web, off the deep web and in the search indexes."

Cryptome shows up on google searches. Your onion does not.

-Travis

On Sun, Oct 11, 2015 at 9:38 PM, Mirimir <mirimir at riseup.net> wrote:

> On 10/11/2015 06:20 PM, Travis Biehn wrote:
> > A billboard doesn't need much 'security.' *shrug*
>
> Well, there are the access logs ;)
>
> It ought to be an onion service, no? No sure bet, of course, but better
> than nothing. In my opinion.
>
> Putting it all on users is awfully lazy, I think.
>
> > Travis
> >
> > On Sun, Oct 11, 2015, 8:18 PM John Young <jya at pipeline.com> wrote:
> >
> >>
> >>> I would not have expected Cryptome to be on shared hosting ;) But yes,
> >>> that would explain it.
> >>
> >> Shared is cheap, so are we. Shared is vuln, so are we. So are the others
> >> despite credentials and billion-dollar armaments and above all else
> >> secrecy and shallow oversight. That explains it.
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >
>



-- 
Twitter <https://twitter.com/tbiehn> | LinkedIn
<http://www.linkedin.com/in/travisbiehn> | GitHub <http://github.com/tbiehn>
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From mirimir at riseup.net  Sun Oct 11 20:57:46 2015
From: mirimir at riseup.net (Mirimir)
Date: Sun, 11 Oct 2015 21:57:46 -0600
Subject: Why Mirimir outlived the canaries in the coal mine
In-Reply-To: <CAJVRA1SHFyNpN-x2xwr64eqK2aCNtBfqyxq9a0CMAbAKE2-5jA@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAJVRA1SHFyNpN-x2xwr64eqK2aCNtBfqyxq9a0CMAbAKE2-5jA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <561B2FBA.5070405@riseup.net>

On 10/11/2015 09:04 PM, coderman wrote:
> On 10/11/15, Mirimir <mirimir at riseup.net> wrote:
>> ... I prefer to use pseudonyms, and to hide
>> behind anonymity systems. I don't trust anyone or anything more than
>> necessary, and I totally compartmentalize online stuff from meatspace.
>> It limits me, I know. No credentials. No meetings. No sharing with
>> meatspace friends. Not many online friends. But so it goes.
> 
> some of us must push the bounds, must we not?
>  lest the measure of appropriate protection remain an abstract unknown.

I've never been good with bounds ;)

The situation is indeed pathetic. But hey, you do what you can.

> it's hard to tell afore how dice come down,
>  as brave inspiration, or
>   cautionary tale.

Even if cautionary tale, I'll do my best to document it ;)

> best regards,
> 




From tbiehn at gmail.com  Sun Oct 11 19:08:17 2015
From: tbiehn at gmail.com (Travis Biehn)
Date: Sun, 11 Oct 2015 22:08:17 -0400
Subject: Why cryptome sold web logs to their paying customers?
In-Reply-To: <1444614833.880422.407458481.7BC2017D@webmail.messagingengine.com>
References: <CANFTA09pppGsfA85-L_+-nOt5uK1Ov2G=tWf7MCYab9YrrsNoA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAJVRA1RDiSwYi=udi-ZYnc5f0TL32wGt4Lqmf1jxog42JJeBmQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <CANFTA09N1RxaE1e05T2U64-KmBQvAhD0h8bWeLZoDnHPOwkVtQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAKtE3zdpESCig4sRatFsHDFrrM35eXkm30qBTr_NNQ5PdiK1-g@mail.gmail.com>
 <1444614833.880422.407458481.7BC2017D@webmail.messagingengine.com>
Message-ID: <CAKtE3zf1iWVik0uSHmbupDxQ_nRRo7Z+ku+nOyQjb9jOHqvdQA@mail.gmail.com>

C'mon gang - I know we all want to spin up a W3C or IETF standard to
support offline signed web-assets.

Then we can -definitively- say that the person producing a torrent file has
the same private key as the site operator.

-Travis

On Sun, Oct 11, 2015 at 9:53 PM, Alfie John <alfiej at fastmail.fm> wrote:

> On Mon, Oct 12, 2015, at 12:32 PM, Travis Biehn wrote:
> > You can start by re-posting the leaked traffic logs... (Editorial
> > discretion is frowned upon amongst the idealists.)
> >
> > Maybe set up an onion, host on i2p, freenet (hehehe), ethereum, the
> > blockchain, torrents. Spread it far and wide, set up a PKI, set up a
> > WOT, keep it all offline.
> >
> > If you're a real masochist you'll host the docs on some crazy
> > 'website' with no indirection protecting you from legal/illegal/TLA
> > action. Keep the info off the dark web, off the deep web and in the
> > search indexes.
> >
> > Warrant canary (which won't work), encryption (you won't be safe) and
> > signatures (secrets will be stolen.)
> >
> > If you think you can survive as well as JYA, Deb & fare better than
> > Assange, go for it. Be prepared.
> >
> > It doesn't pay very well. You'd have to be crazy to do this.
>
> Or you can be like TheCthulhu and run your own data centre with
> good lawyers.
>
> Alfie
>
> --
>   Alfie John
>   alfiej at fastmail.fm
>



-- 
Twitter <https://twitter.com/tbiehn> | LinkedIn
<http://www.linkedin.com/in/travisbiehn> | GitHub <http://github.com/tbiehn>
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From themikebest at gmail.com  Sun Oct 11 19:11:20 2015
From: themikebest at gmail.com (Michael Best)
Date: Sun, 11 Oct 2015 22:11:20 -0400
Subject: How to go about sharing (was: one of a dozen threads about Cryptome)
Message-ID: <CANFTA09UtqeQGrp6UJx6446DnEFLtpKF2s5OHKLjJHnF6jheVg@mail.gmail.com>

Thoughts - All good advice in it's own way, but mostly it seems
unnecessary. Aside from copyright and reprint issues, 99% of what's on
Cryptome is not only open source, it's not really objectionable in terms of
hosting it.

TheCthulhu does a great job of distributing large amounts of data, but
that's it's own thing and requires an ongoing budget and infrastructure.

I figure with Archive.org I can distribute 99.9% of material and not worry
about copyright, bandwidth, etc. If it turns out there's a violation I
missed, the item gets taken down - not the entire site or all the uploads.
On the rare occasion that there's something else, I'd rather take whatever
steps are needed to distribute it then rather than try to build my own
independent infrastructure ahead of time.

Things to add? Holes to poke in my logic?


> On Mon, Oct 12, 2015, at 12:32 PM, Travis Biehn wrote:
> >* You can start by re-posting the leaked traffic logs... (Editorial *>*
> discretion is frowned upon amongst the idealists.) *>
> >* Maybe set up an onion, host on i2p, freenet (hehehe), ethereum, the *>*
> blockchain, torrents. Spread it far and wide, set up a PKI, set up a *>*
> WOT, keep it all offline. *>
> >* If you're a real masochist you'll host the docs on some crazy *>*
> 'website' with no indirection protecting you from legal/illegal/TLA *>*
> action. Keep the info off the dark web, off the deep web and in the *>*
> search indexes. *>
> >* Warrant canary (which won't work), encryption (you won't be safe) and *
> >* signatures (secrets will be stolen.) *>
> >* If you think you can survive as well as JYA, Deb & fare better than *>*
> Assange, go for it. Be prepared. *>
> >* It doesn't pay very well. You'd have to be crazy to do this. * Or you
> can be like TheCthulhu and run your own data centre with
> good lawyers. Alfie
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From tbiehn at gmail.com  Sun Oct 11 19:26:38 2015
From: tbiehn at gmail.com (Travis Biehn)
Date: Sun, 11 Oct 2015 22:26:38 -0400
Subject: Fwd: How to go about sharing (was: one of a dozen threads about
 Cryptome)
In-Reply-To: <CAKtE3zeF1NkU3SBoftUzQ2ZqM54nYDcjZOoZe10hxHXiGFdwXQ@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CANFTA09UtqeQGrp6UJx6446DnEFLtpKF2s5OHKLjJHnF6jheVg@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAKtE3zeF1NkU3SBoftUzQ2ZqM54nYDcjZOoZe10hxHXiGFdwXQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAKtE3zeun45bAYkm5NFbp+EE33RMabW9_H7JxKGR6d45ihaRgg@mail.gmail.com>

+Cpunks

---------- Forwarded message ----------
From: Travis Biehn <tbiehn at gmail.com>
Date: Sun, Oct 11, 2015 at 10:25 PM
Subject: Re: How to go about sharing (was: one of a dozen threads about
Cryptome)
To: Michael Best <themikebest at gmail.com>


Unnecessary for what threats? Who is the arbiter / granter of authority on
'copyright' or 'DMCA' takedowns? What is this 'violation'? Do I, as an
oppressive regime worker, simply need to put 'Copyright the TLAs, all
rights reserved" next to my TS stamp to keep it off your website?

Hosting over HTTP(s) provides neither anonymity, nor metadata anonymity.
There isn't much you can do to change this, except loudly inform your
userbase of these properties, provide them with mechanisms to ensure the
integrity of the resource and provide alternative protocols which possess
these desired qualities.

How do you attest to the data provenance, your attestation or guarantee of
integrity AND completeness?

Archive.org is not 'censorship resistant'.

-Travis

On Sun, Oct 11, 2015 at 10:11 PM, Michael Best <themikebest at gmail.com>
wrote:

> Thoughts - All good advice in it's own way, but mostly it seems
> unnecessary. Aside from copyright and reprint issues, 99% of what's on
> Cryptome is not only open source, it's not really objectionable in terms of
> hosting it.
>
> TheCthulhu does a great job of distributing large amounts of data, but
> that's it's own thing and requires an ongoing budget and infrastructure.
>
> I figure with Archive.org I can distribute 99.9% of material and not worry
> about copyright, bandwidth, etc. If it turns out there's a violation I
> missed, the item gets taken down - not the entire site or all the uploads.
> On the rare occasion that there's something else, I'd rather take whatever
> steps are needed to distribute it then rather than try to build my own
> independent infrastructure ahead of time.
>
> Things to add? Holes to poke in my logic?
>
>
>> On Mon, Oct 12, 2015, at 12:32 PM, Travis Biehn wrote:
>> >* You can start by re-posting the leaked traffic logs... (Editorial *>*
>> discretion is frowned upon amongst the idealists.) *>
>> >* Maybe set up an onion, host on i2p, freenet (hehehe), ethereum, the *>*
>> blockchain, torrents. Spread it far and wide, set up a PKI, set up a *>*
>> WOT, keep it all offline. *>
>> >* If you're a real masochist you'll host the docs on some crazy *>*
>> 'website' with no indirection protecting you from legal/illegal/TLA *>*
>> action. Keep the info off the dark web, off the deep web and in the *>*
>> search indexes. *>
>> >* Warrant canary (which won't work), encryption (you won't be safe) and
>> *>* signatures (secrets will be stolen.) *>
>> >* If you think you can survive as well as JYA, Deb & fare better than *>*
>> Assange, go for it. Be prepared. *>
>> >* It doesn't pay very well. You'd have to be crazy to do this. * Or you
>> can be like TheCthulhu and run your own data centre with
>> good lawyers. Alfie
>
>


-- 
Twitter <https://twitter.com/tbiehn> | LinkedIn
<http://www.linkedin.com/in/travisbiehn> | GitHub <http://github.com/tbiehn>
| TravisBiehn.com <http://www.travisbiehn.com> | Google Plus
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From themikebest at gmail.com  Sun Oct 11 19:27:07 2015
From: themikebest at gmail.com (Michael Best)
Date: Sun, 11 Oct 2015 22:27:07 -0400
Subject: Why cryptome sold web logs to their paying customers?
In-Reply-To: <CAJVRA1RDiSwYi=udi-ZYnc5f0TL32wGt4Lqmf1jxog42JJeBmQ@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CANFTA09pppGsfA85-L_+-nOt5uK1Ov2G=tWf7MCYab9YrrsNoA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAJVRA1RDiSwYi=udi-ZYnc5f0TL32wGt4Lqmf1jxog42JJeBmQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CANFTA094Trr=dfGwPneTp1MzxLYCN_5oqfC=Jqo7KjuK+fazVQ@mail.gmail.com>

Any chance you'll look for a new ISP, John?

On Sun, Oct 11, 2015 at 9:01 PM, coderman <coderman at gmail.com> wrote:


> all of us are wondering what will finally be the straw too far for John...
>
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From tbiehn at gmail.com  Sun Oct 11 19:31:04 2015
From: tbiehn at gmail.com (Travis Biehn)
Date: Sun, 11 Oct 2015 22:31:04 -0400
Subject: Why cryptome sold web logs to their paying customers?
In-Reply-To: <561B17B7.4050600@riseup.net>
References: <trinity-731b0262-b3be-4de0-8d9f-731ae2425bf0-1444583318602@3capp-mailcom-lxa16>
 <1444598030.829859.407317641.4ED309A5@webmail.messagingengine.com>
 <561AEF73.5070309@riseup.net>
 <E1ZlQkp-0004tw-Bs@elasmtp-curtail.atl.sa.earthlink.net>
 <CAKtE3zd45tgzqW+wvJG0=9TnnXoZfR-eejAgWN3qPtm1=oPmDw@mail.gmail.com>
 <561B0F01.3010405@riseup.net>
 <CAKtE3zek5qGCtTokXgnkRQuK94GCShKaSEDj5PuL10rjXsx16Q@mail.gmail.com>
 <561B17B7.4050600@riseup.net>
Message-ID: <CAKtE3zczPis1D1H-Sh8v_sj-rEQtSUK36JLKuJ5fBur9YBeubw@mail.gmail.com>

Your onion or your clearsite?
How do you establish that your onion and clearsite host the same content?
How do you federate changes from your onion to your clearsite?
What do you do if your clearsite gets seized and used to serve up TAO
payloads?
How do you prevent your upstream from logging the IP addresses that hit
port 80 and 443? The size of those messages (you know the https sizing
attacks which can reveal which particular pages your visitors are on,
right)?

How do you make your visitors aware of the above and more? How do you
ensure that they saw your message?

-Travis

On Sun, Oct 11, 2015 at 10:15 PM, Mirimir <mirimir at riseup.net> wrote:

> On 10/11/2015 07:49 PM, Travis Biehn wrote:
> > I'd rather have what you call 'lazy' over nothing.
>
> Look, I mean no disrespect to Cryptome. But I do think that there ought
> to be a warning for users to protect themselves, if they don't want
> their access logged by everyone and their little yellow dog.
>
> > The ideal is all distribution modes available: "Keep the info off the
> dark
> > web, off the deep web and in the search indexes."
> >
> > Cryptome shows up on google searches. Your onion does not.
>
> Well, Cryptome has been around for about 20 years, so hey ;)
>
> But Google is indexing it. And it shows up well enough in relevant
> searches. But I haven't been promoting it very much.
>
> > -Travis
> >
> > On Sun, Oct 11, 2015 at 9:38 PM, Mirimir <mirimir at riseup.net> wrote:
> >
> >> On 10/11/2015 06:20 PM, Travis Biehn wrote:
> >>> A billboard doesn't need much 'security.' *shrug*
> >>
> >> Well, there are the access logs ;)
> >>
> >> It ought to be an onion service, no? No sure bet, of course, but better
> >> than nothing. In my opinion.
> >>
> >> Putting it all on users is awfully lazy, I think.
> >>
> >>> Travis
> >>>
> >>> On Sun, Oct 11, 2015, 8:18 PM John Young <jya at pipeline.com> wrote:
> >>>
> >>>>
> >>>>> I would not have expected Cryptome to be on shared hosting ;) But
> yes,
> >>>>> that would explain it.
> >>>>
> >>>> Shared is cheap, so are we. Shared is vuln, so are we. So are the
> others
> >>>> despite credentials and billion-dollar armaments and above all else
> >>>> secrecy and shallow oversight. That explains it.
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>
> >>
> >
> >
> >
>



-- 
Twitter <https://twitter.com/tbiehn> | LinkedIn
<http://www.linkedin.com/in/travisbiehn> | GitHub <http://github.com/tbiehn>
| TravisBiehn.com <http://www.travisbiehn.com> | Google Plus
<https://plus.google.com/+TravisBiehn>
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From themikebest at gmail.com  Sun Oct 11 19:33:40 2015
From: themikebest at gmail.com (Michael Best)
Date: Sun, 11 Oct 2015 22:33:40 -0400
Subject: How to go about sharing (was: one of a dozen threads about
 Cryptome)
In-Reply-To: <CAKtE3zeF1NkU3SBoftUzQ2ZqM54nYDcjZOoZe10hxHXiGFdwXQ@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CANFTA09UtqeQGrp6UJx6446DnEFLtpKF2s5OHKLjJHnF6jheVg@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAKtE3zeF1NkU3SBoftUzQ2ZqM54nYDcjZOoZe10hxHXiGFdwXQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CANFTA08TsWe1o7AtB-3vpxAEwFXcUEJR_yVx5iMVH3Kbhfw+hA@mail.gmail.com>

Each depends on the situation, and whether or not fair use applies. If
there are mechanisms in place to sell or license the content, fair use is
less likely to apply.

So far, I haven't had any big problems with IA despite 100k+ items, several
TB of data and 1% their text library. Will somethings be an issue? Maybe,
but I'll cross that bridge when I come to it and not worry about it until I
know what chasm I have to cross and where.

Provenance etc. is situation dependent, no categorical answer exists that
isn't a bald faced lie.

On Sun, Oct 11, 2015 at 10:25 PM, Travis Biehn <tbiehn at gmail.com> wrote:

> Unnecessary for what threats? Who is the arbiter / granter of authority on
> 'copyright' or 'DMCA' takedowns? What is this 'violation'? Do I, as an
> oppressive regime worker, simply need to put 'Copyright the TLAs, all
> rights reserved" next to my TS stamp to keep it off your website?
>
> Hosting over HTTP(s) provides neither anonymity, nor metadata anonymity.
> There isn't much you can do to change this, except loudly inform your
> userbase of these properties, provide them with mechanisms to ensure the
> integrity of the resource and provide alternative protocols which possess
> these desired qualities.
>
> How do you attest to the data provenance, your attestation or guarantee of
> integrity AND completeness?
>
> Archive.org is not 'censorship resistant'.
>
> -Travis
>
> On Sun, Oct 11, 2015 at 10:11 PM, Michael Best <themikebest at gmail.com>
> wrote:
>
>> Thoughts - All good advice in it's own way, but mostly it seems
>> unnecessary. Aside from copyright and reprint issues, 99% of what's on
>> Cryptome is not only open source, it's not really objectionable in terms of
>> hosting it.
>>
>> TheCthulhu does a great job of distributing large amounts of data, but
>> that's it's own thing and requires an ongoing budget and infrastructure.
>>
>> I figure with Archive.org I can distribute 99.9% of material and not
>> worry about copyright, bandwidth, etc. If it turns out there's a violation
>> I missed, the item gets taken down - not the entire site or all the
>> uploads. On the rare occasion that there's something else, I'd rather take
>> whatever steps are needed to distribute it then rather than try to build my
>> own independent infrastructure ahead of time.
>>
>> Things to add? Holes to poke in my logic?
>>
>>
>>> On Mon, Oct 12, 2015, at 12:32 PM, Travis Biehn wrote:
>>> >* You can start by re-posting the leaked traffic logs... (Editorial *>*
>>> discretion is frowned upon amongst the idealists.) *>
>>> >* Maybe set up an onion, host on i2p, freenet (hehehe), ethereum, the *
>>> >* blockchain, torrents. Spread it far and wide, set up a PKI, set up a
>>> *>* WOT, keep it all offline. *>
>>> >* If you're a real masochist you'll host the docs on some crazy *>*
>>> 'website' with no indirection protecting you from legal/illegal/TLA *>*
>>> action. Keep the info off the dark web, off the deep web and in the *>*
>>> search indexes. *>
>>> >* Warrant canary (which won't work), encryption (you won't be safe)
>>> and *>* signatures (secrets will be stolen.) *>
>>> >* If you think you can survive as well as JYA, Deb & fare better than *
>>> >* Assange, go for it. Be prepared. *>
>>> >* It doesn't pay very well. You'd have to be crazy to do this. * Or
>>> you can be like TheCthulhu and run your own data centre with
>>> good lawyers. Alfie
>>
>>
>
>
> --
> Twitter <https://twitter.com/tbiehn> | LinkedIn
> <http://www.linkedin.com/in/travisbiehn> | GitHub
> <http://github.com/tbiehn> | TravisBiehn.com <http://www.travisbiehn.com> |
> Google Plus <https://plus.google.com/+TravisBiehn>
>
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From themikebest at gmail.com  Sun Oct 11 19:44:41 2015
From: themikebest at gmail.com (Michael Best)
Date: Sun, 11 Oct 2015 22:44:41 -0400
Subject: How to go about sharing (was: one of a dozen threads about
 Cryptome)
In-Reply-To: <CAJVRA1StXKAf98dZZ1tVdDSCVV+4cXR10kKx3Qqv-6kMGvYDBQ@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CANFTA09UtqeQGrp6UJx6446DnEFLtpKF2s5OHKLjJHnF6jheVg@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAKtE3zeF1NkU3SBoftUzQ2ZqM54nYDcjZOoZe10hxHXiGFdwXQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAKtE3zeun45bAYkm5NFbp+EE33RMabW9_H7JxKGR6d45ihaRgg@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAJVRA1StXKAf98dZZ1tVdDSCVV+4cXR10kKx3Qqv-6kMGvYDBQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CANFTA09t8wUZ=BaEjvVj09-+RPROKRdp+6UOcnGRpns_=mA8mw@mail.gmail.com>

Truth. When they told me "any volume of data" I was skeptical. But so
far...

On Sun, Oct 11, 2015 at 10:38 PM, coderman <coderman at gmail.com> wrote:

> On 10/11/15, Travis Biehn <tbiehn at gmail.com> wrote:
> > ... Archive.org is not 'censorship resistant'.
>
> it is however, deep capacity for the other 99.99%,
>  with programmatic access (python),
>   and bulk archives as well.
>
> how can you complain about that? :)
>
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From tbiehn at gmail.com  Sun Oct 11 19:57:55 2015
From: tbiehn at gmail.com (Travis Biehn)
Date: Sun, 11 Oct 2015 22:57:55 -0400
Subject: Why cryptome sold web logs to their paying customers?
In-Reply-To: <561B1FEA.7050006@riseup.net>
References: <trinity-731b0262-b3be-4de0-8d9f-731ae2425bf0-1444583318602@3capp-mailcom-lxa16>
 <1444598030.829859.407317641.4ED309A5@webmail.messagingengine.com>
 <561AEF73.5070309@riseup.net>
 <E1ZlQkp-0004tw-Bs@elasmtp-curtail.atl.sa.earthlink.net>
 <CAKtE3zd45tgzqW+wvJG0=9TnnXoZfR-eejAgWN3qPtm1=oPmDw@mail.gmail.com>
 <561B0F01.3010405@riseup.net>
 <CAKtE3zek5qGCtTokXgnkRQuK94GCShKaSEDj5PuL10rjXsx16Q@mail.gmail.com>
 <561B17B7.4050600@riseup.net>
 <CAKtE3zczPis1D1H-Sh8v_sj-rEQtSUK36JLKuJ5fBur9YBeubw@mail.gmail.com>
 <561B1FEA.7050006@riseup.net>
Message-ID: <CAKtE3zc2ZzgQq76MfT==brQVXsTeJbNs_2gv1Othiwkie8jBMw@mail.gmail.com>

onion.link is an untrusted, upstream CDN, no?

On Sun, Oct 11, 2015 at 10:50 PM, Mirimir <mirimir at riseup.net> wrote:

> On 10/11/2015 08:31 PM, Travis Biehn wrote:
> > Your onion or your clearsite?
>
> What clearsite? One aspect of the design is that lighttpd runs in a VM
> that can't see the Internet except through a Tor-gateway VM.
>
> > How do you establish that your onion and clearsite host the same content?
>
> Running a clearsite just doesn't work for me. It would paint too big a
> target on the server. Anyone not using Tor can just use
> <http://dbshmc5frbchaum2.onion.link/>.
>
> > How do you federate changes from your onion to your clearsite?
> > What do you do if your clearsite gets seized and used to serve up TAO
> > payloads?
>
> Don't have a clearsite :)
>
> > How do you prevent your upstream from logging the IP addresses that hit
> > port 80 and 443? The size of those messages (you know the https sizing
> > attacks which can reveal which particular pages your visitors are on,
> > right)?
>
> Upstream = Tor. And sure, maybe Tor gets hosed.
>
> > How do you make your visitors aware of the above and more? How do you
> > ensure that they saw your message?
>
> Look at my front page :)
>
> > -Travis
> >
> > On Sun, Oct 11, 2015 at 10:15 PM, Mirimir <mirimir at riseup.net> wrote:
> >
> >> On 10/11/2015 07:49 PM, Travis Biehn wrote:
> >>> I'd rather have what you call 'lazy' over nothing.
> >>
> >> Look, I mean no disrespect to Cryptome. But I do think that there ought
> >> to be a warning for users to protect themselves, if they don't want
> >> their access logged by everyone and their little yellow dog.
> >>
> >>> The ideal is all distribution modes available: "Keep the info off the
> >> dark
> >>> web, off the deep web and in the search indexes."
> >>>
> >>> Cryptome shows up on google searches. Your onion does not.
> >>
> >> Well, Cryptome has been around for about 20 years, so hey ;)
> >>
> >> But Google is indexing it. And it shows up well enough in relevant
> >> searches. But I haven't been promoting it very much.
> >>
> >>> -Travis
> >>>
> >>> On Sun, Oct 11, 2015 at 9:38 PM, Mirimir <mirimir at riseup.net> wrote:
> >>>
> >>>> On 10/11/2015 06:20 PM, Travis Biehn wrote:
> >>>>> A billboard doesn't need much 'security.' *shrug*
> >>>>
> >>>> Well, there are the access logs ;)
> >>>>
> >>>> It ought to be an onion service, no? No sure bet, of course, but
> better
> >>>> than nothing. In my opinion.
> >>>>
> >>>> Putting it all on users is awfully lazy, I think.
> >>>>
> >>>>> Travis
> >>>>>
> >>>>> On Sun, Oct 11, 2015, 8:18 PM John Young <jya at pipeline.com> wrote:
> >>>>>
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>> I would not have expected Cryptome to be on shared hosting ;) But
> >> yes,
> >>>>>>> that would explain it.
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> Shared is cheap, so are we. Shared is vuln, so are we. So are the
> >> others
> >>>>>> despite credentials and billion-dollar armaments and above all else
> >>>>>> secrecy and shallow oversight. That explains it.
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>
> >
> >
> >
>



-- 
Twitter <https://twitter.com/tbiehn> | LinkedIn
<http://www.linkedin.com/in/travisbiehn> | GitHub <http://github.com/tbiehn>
| TravisBiehn.com <http://www.travisbiehn.com> | Google Plus
<https://plus.google.com/+TravisBiehn>
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From drjfeinstein at mail.com  Sun Oct 11 14:24:15 2015
From: drjfeinstein at mail.com (Dr. J Feinstein)
Date: Sun, 11 Oct 2015 23:24:15 +0200
Subject: Why cryptome sold web logs to their paying customers?
In-Reply-To: <1444598030.829859.407317641.4ED309A5@webmail.messagingengine.com>
References: <trinity-731b0262-b3be-4de0-8d9f-731ae2425bf0-1444583318602@3capp-mailcom-lxa16>,
 <1444598030.829859.407317641.4ED309A5@webmail.messagingengine.com>
Message-ID: <trinity-b3ad17af-4e1b-4f86-9947-45853cfd1f4c-1444598654915@3capp-mailcom-lxa08>

Maybe, but why those foldersmonths only? Itd be good to hear from JYA, especially b/c Netsol contradicts him.

> Sent: Sunday, October 11, 2015 at 9:13 PM
> From: "Alfie John" <alfiej at fastmail.fm>
> To: cypherpunks at cpunks.org
> Subject: Re: Why cryptome sold web logs to their paying customers?
>
> On Mon, Oct 12, 2015, at 04:08 AM, Dr. J Feinstein wrote:
> > Resend–HTML email scrubbed
> >
> > Calling bullshit. Mirimirs right, this makes no sense. And JYA says
> > netsol won't let him delete the logs but Netsol says logs are disabled
> > by default[
> > https://www.networksolutions.com/support/how-to-enable-download-the-web-logs/]
> > and you have to turn them on.
> >
> > So how the fuckd this really happen?
> >
> > Mirimir <mirimir at riseup.net> Are you arguing that users could have
> > found those logs?
> >
> > I almost can't imagine that. Logs are normally in /var/log/ somewhere,
> > and I can't imagine making them searchable. And indeed, I can't
> > imagine how Cryptome archives would have included anything from
> > /var/log/, even after system restore from backups.
> >
> > <--SNIP-->
> >
> > > Should access logs be kept for that long? Absolutely not. From what
> > > I> have read in the email exchange that was posted, the log files
> > > were> included in a NetSol total restore. My guess is that
> > > John/Cryptome did> not intentionally keep these files, and did not
> > > realize these files were> included in the archive.
> > But that's the thing. Logs should have been in /var/log/. And how
> > would the "NetSol total restore" have changed that?
> 
> Not necessarily...
> 
> Logs in /var/log is where they should be by default, but if the box is
> on a shared hosting account, then things are completely different. For
> instance, Bluehost charges $3.95/month, which gets you a home directory
> on a box shared with hundreds of other users. In your home directory,
> you get something like (from memory, which was a long, long time ago):
> 
>   ~/
>   ~/public_www/
>   ~/public_www/html/
>   ~/public_www/access_log
>   ~/public_www/error_log
> 
> So as you can see, the user does have permissions to access logs, but
> are kept in the user's _home_ directory. Now you can see why this could
> have mistakenly been distributed:
> 
>   tar zcf cryptome-backup.tar.gz ~/
> 
> The backup would have also slurped in all the logs. There was no malice,
> just an easy mistake that everyone here could have make given the same
> circumstances.
> 
> Alfie
> 
> -- 
>   Alfie John
>   alfiej at fastmail.fm
> 
>




From drjfeinstein at mail.com  Sun Oct 11 14:33:33 2015
From: drjfeinstein at mail.com (Dr. J Feinstein)
Date: Sun, 11 Oct 2015 23:33:33 +0200
Subject: [cryptome] Re: Why cryptome sold web logs to their paying
 customers?
In-Reply-To: <CANFTA0-jX-L8c-u+kusdY_D6YzDNwtRVXgv=pFoOamNSgXwVTQ@mail.gmail.com>
References: <trinity-731b0262-b3be-4de0-8d9f-731ae2425bf0-1444583318602@3capp-mailcom-lxa16>
 <20151011180239.EA60FC00014@frontend1.nyi.internal>
 <CANFTA09yPPnctXkBcuvNORm2+0=7Y+fRU4c7rm0L4id7xU-Vog@mail.gmail.com>
 <CANFTA0-psjyujdasCnxhfQFnd5-UOr+LxD5MgRV2n+R-YiT2Lw@mail.gmail.com>
 <8C4170F3-B9A5-4EB6-A6DB-7BE6701DD560@littledystopia.net>
 <CANFTA0_ru=Fj0WJXqCF+dFDHCa_fLFo3PnsEqy3m=KDxQZFHpg@mail.gmail.com>
 <29FDC0FF-712A-4048-AA64-67845A7CDECA@littledystopia.net>
 <20151011204851.D5DBAC00016@frontend1.nyi.internal>
 <E1ZlNmH-0000VV-40@elasmtp-curtail.atl.sa.earthlink.net>,
 <CANFTA0-jX-L8c-u+kusdY_D6YzDNwtRVXgv=pFoOamNSgXwVTQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <trinity-135ce961-ec2d-4bd9-8df8-772b864b2834-1444599213281@3capp-mailcom-lxa08>

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From tbiehn at gmail.com  Sun Oct 11 17:20:10 2015
From: tbiehn at gmail.com (Travis Biehn)
Date: Mon, 12 Oct 2015 00:20:10 +0000
Subject: Why cryptome sold web logs to their paying customers?
In-Reply-To: <E1ZlQkp-0004tw-Bs@elasmtp-curtail.atl.sa.earthlink.net>
References: <trinity-731b0262-b3be-4de0-8d9f-731ae2425bf0-1444583318602@3capp-mailcom-lxa16>
 <1444598030.829859.407317641.4ED309A5@webmail.messagingengine.com>
 <561AEF73.5070309@riseup.net>
 <E1ZlQkp-0004tw-Bs@elasmtp-curtail.atl.sa.earthlink.net>
Message-ID: <CAKtE3zd45tgzqW+wvJG0=9TnnXoZfR-eejAgWN3qPtm1=oPmDw@mail.gmail.com>

A billboard doesn't need much 'security.' *shrug*

Travis

On Sun, Oct 11, 2015, 8:18 PM John Young <jya at pipeline.com> wrote:

>
> >I would not have expected Cryptome to be on shared hosting ;) But yes,
> >that would explain it.
>
> Shared is cheap, so are we. Shared is vuln, so are we. So are the others
> despite credentials and billion-dollar armaments and above all else
> secrecy and shallow oversight. That explains it.
>
>
>
>
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From drjfeinstein at mail.com  Sun Oct 11 15:54:19 2015
From: drjfeinstein at mail.com (Dr. J Feinstein)
Date: Mon, 12 Oct 2015 00:54:19 +0200
Subject: Why cryptome sold web logs to their paying customers?
In-Reply-To: <CAKtE3zexn9=fi1v_-7r0snYT+_+mG=ZZazfbkwoQaOFsYBat=A@mail.gmail.com>
References: <trinity-731b0262-b3be-4de0-8d9f-731ae2425bf0-1444583318602@3capp-mailcom-lxa16>
 <1444598030.829859.407317641.4ED309A5@webmail.messagingengine.com>
 <trinity-b3ad17af-4e1b-4f86-9947-45853cfd1f4c-1444598654915@3capp-mailcom-lxa08>,
 <CAKtE3zexn9=fi1v_-7r0snYT+_+mG=ZZazfbkwoQaOFsYBat=A@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <trinity-36cf8f17-4a59-44ec-b1b1-5515aa09c682-1444604059313@3capp-mailcom-lxa15>


So why does Netsol contradict JYA about the log settings?
 

Sent: Sunday, October 11, 2015 at 9:43 PM
From: "Travis Biehn" <tbiehn at gmail.com>
To: "Dr. J Feinstein" <drjfeinstein at mail.com>, alfiej at fastmail.fm
Cc: cypherpunks at cpunks.org
Subject: Re: Why cryptome sold web logs to their paying customers?
It's simple.
Someone made a mistake. Best was initially assumed full of shit by JYA, as he's a neophyte - and is consistently 'off-message' for this list.
Others, wishing to read more into it, other than face value of hubris, see plans within plans.
At the end of the day, Bests' disclosures amount to nothing of consequence. At best he overhyped them, being a neophyte. At worst he's JTRIGd the list, hilariously easily. The technical cognoscenti on the list stay quiet, "code compiling" as the good doctor says.
In general, this oversight is valuable because it demonstrates one thing:
Even if you try to delete it.
If there's a signal it will leak. Purposefully or not.
When the protocol you use doesn't provide metadata anonymity, don't expect it because you won't get it. If you don't understand this - keep studying.
Why guess at 'motivation'? Do we need to FUD yet another leaker site? Put your money where your mouth is - improve it, donate, write your own, fix the bug & plug the hole.
Travis
 

On Sun, Oct 11, 2015, 5:28 PM Dr. J Feinstein <drjfeinstein at mail.com> wrote:Maybe, but why those foldersmonths only? Itd be good to hear from JYA, especially b/c Netsol contradicts him.

> Sent: Sunday, October 11, 2015 at 9:13 PM
> From: "Alfie John" <alfiej at fastmail.fm>
> To: cypherpunks at cpunks.org
> Subject: Re: Why cryptome sold web logs to their paying customers?
>
> On Mon, Oct 12, 2015, at 04:08 AM, Dr. J Feinstein wrote:
> > Resend–HTML email scrubbed
> >
> > Calling bullshit. Mirimirs right, this makes no sense. And JYA says
> > netsol won't let him delete the logs but Netsol says logs are disabled
> > by default[
> > https://www.networksolutions.com/support/how-to-enable-download-the-web-logs/[https://www.networksolutions.com/support/how-to-enable-download-the-web-logs/]]
> > and you have to turn them on.
> >
> > So how the fuckd this really happen?
> >
> > Mirimir <mirimir at riseup.net> Are you arguing that users could have
> > found those logs?
> >
> > I almost can't imagine that. Logs are normally in /var/log/ somewhere,
> > and I can't imagine making them searchable. And indeed, I can't
> > imagine how Cryptome archives would have included anything from
> > /var/log/, even after system restore from backups.
> >
> > <--SNIP-->
> >
> > > Should access logs be kept for that long? Absolutely not. From what
> > > I> have read in the email exchange that was posted, the log files
> > > were> included in a NetSol total restore. My guess is that
> > > John/Cryptome did> not intentionally keep these files, and did not
> > > realize these files were> included in the archive.
> > But that's the thing. Logs should have been in /var/log/. And how
> > would the "NetSol total restore" have changed that?
>
> Not necessarily...
>
> Logs in /var/log is where they should be by default, but if the box is
> on a shared hosting account, then things are completely different. For
> instance, Bluehost charges $3.95/month, which gets you a home directory
> on a box shared with hundreds of other users. In your home directory,
> you get something like (from memory, which was a long, long time ago):
>
>   ~/
>   ~/public_www/
>   ~/public_www/html/
>   ~/public_www/access_log
>   ~/public_www/error_log
>
> So as you can see, the user does have permissions to access logs, but
> are kept in the user's _home_ directory. Now you can see why this could
> have mistakenly been distributed:
>
>   tar zcf cryptome-backup.tar.gz ~/
>
> The backup would have also slurped in all the logs. There was no malice,
> just an easy mistake that everyone here could have make given the same
> circumstances.
>
> Alfie
>
> --
>   Alfie John
>   alfiej at fastmail.fm
>
>
 




From zen at freedbms.net  Sun Oct 11 18:02:16 2015
From: zen at freedbms.net (Zenaan Harkness)
Date: Mon, 12 Oct 2015 01:02:16 +0000
Subject: How to minimize one's damage in case the usa kicks the bucket?
In-Reply-To: <561AF3A2.5030206@riseup.net>
References: <20151005085119.GA2489@sivokote.iziade.m$>
 <561AF3A2.5030206@riseup.net>
Message-ID: <CAOsGNSStTuCy6m+r9Lj40Du6e5_Ud4c5rO6fiFGc2MyMWaNzDA@mail.gmail.com>

> On 10/05/2015 03:51 AM, Georgi Guninski wrote:
>> The financial situation in the usa is quite grave.
>>
>> Assume very severe financial crisis hits the usa relatively soon causing
>> hyperinflation there and possibly in other countries.
>>
>> I am interested:  How to minimize one's damage in this situation?
>>
>> Some suspicions: Banks/exchanges are known Ponzi schemes, so how much
>> the banking system will remain intact is unclear to me.
>>
>> Some possibilities
>> real estate outside usa
>> gold (is gold certificate secure enough?)
>> bitcoins (some people got burnt, security of bitcoins not clear to me)
>> ???
>>
>> Please post political rants in other thread.

On 10/11/15, Douglas Lucas <dal at riseup.net> wrote:
> Reviving this thread. Where's the altruism in "how to minimize one's
> damage"? Why's the model here for resisting economic oppression a
> survivalist hiding in an encrypted bunker, rather than the people of
> Burkina Faso using sticks and rocks (not cryptography) to force
> oligarchs out of their country? In Mexico they were recently burning
> polling stations, but we were discussing hoarding Bitcoin to ensure our
> self-interest? Where's the idealism in such selfishness?

Basically I agree, please feel free to make suggestions :)




From drjfeinstein at mail.com  Sun Oct 11 16:04:58 2015
From: drjfeinstein at mail.com (Dr. J Feinstein)
Date: Mon, 12 Oct 2015 01:04:58 +0200
Subject: Why cryptome sold web logs to their paying customers? or did
 they ... !!! [ plot twist ]
In-Reply-To: <CAJVRA1R+UTfCGe+P7okLOj5HZUu7tmpOeSNKtMB2QEeYe0Vc+g@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAJVRA1R+UTfCGe+P7okLOj5HZUu7tmpOeSNKtMB2QEeYe0Vc+g@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <trinity-943858d0-89f7-46d0-972d-72cc1752d44f-1444604698002@3capp-mailcom-lxa15>


1. JYA said it was Netsol, were working with his scant informatin
2. True
 

Sent: Sunday, October 11, 2015 at 10:53 PM
From: coderman <coderman at gmail.com>
To: "Dr. J Feinstein" <drjfeinstein at mail.com>
Cc: cypherpunks at cpunks.org
Subject: Re: Why cryptome sold web logs to their paying customers? or did they ... !!! [ plot twist ]
On 10/11/15, Dr. J Feinstein <drjfeinstein at mail.com> wrote
> So how the fuckd this really happen?

your error is assuming there are only two parties in this equation:
JYA and netsol.

your secondary fallacy involves netsol as solitary, singular entity of
one action and awareness.

how'd this not get fucked harder, is the question. (or did it? :)


best regards,




From tbiehn at gmail.com  Sun Oct 11 18:11:55 2015
From: tbiehn at gmail.com (Travis Biehn)
Date: Mon, 12 Oct 2015 01:11:55 +0000
Subject: Why cryptome sold web logs to their paying customers?
In-Reply-To: <CAJVRA1RDiSwYi=udi-ZYnc5f0TL32wGt4Lqmf1jxog42JJeBmQ@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CANFTA09pppGsfA85-L_+-nOt5uK1Ov2G=tWf7MCYab9YrrsNoA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAJVRA1RDiSwYi=udi-ZYnc5f0TL32wGt4Lqmf1jxog42JJeBmQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAKtE3zc5fgtnJ3q2reZUmYbSHsa9YQrO176XHmqpLaGbVCY66A@mail.gmail.com>

Lots of rabble rousing. Nobody willing to take deb&jyas place on the
chopping block.

If you can do it better, get to it.

Travis

On Sun, Oct 11, 2015, 9:05 PM coderman <coderman at gmail.com> wrote:

> On 10/11/15, Michael Best <themikebest at gmail.com> wrote:
> > Normally I'd give you the benefit of the doubt, John, but the last time
> in
> > this discussion you said something was disinfo it was the logs.
>
> i have hated network solutions since '98.
>
> you're free to buy their services, if you'd like to confirm first person.
> :)
>
> all of us are wondering what will finally be the straw too far for John...
>
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From drjfeinstein at mail.com  Sun Oct 11 17:03:09 2015
From: drjfeinstein at mail.com (Dr. J Feinstein)
Date: Mon, 12 Oct 2015 02:03:09 +0200
Subject: Why cryptome sold web logs to their paying customers?
In-Reply-To: <E1ZlQPQ-0008H8-7V@elasmtp-galgo.atl.sa.earthlink.net>
References: <trinity-731b0262-b3be-4de0-8d9f-731ae2425bf0-1444583318602@3capp-mailcom-lxa16>
 <1444598030.829859.407317641.4ED309A5@webmail.messagingengine.com>
 <trinity-b3ad17af-4e1b-4f86-9947-45853cfd1f4c-1444598654915@3capp-mailcom-lxa08>
 <CAKtE3zexn9=fi1v_-7r0snYT+_+mG=ZZazfbkwoQaOFsYBat=A@mail.gmail.com>
 <trinity-36cf8f17-4a59-44ec-b1b1-5515aa09c682-1444604059313@3capp-mailcom-lxa15>,
 <E1ZlQPQ-0008H8-7V@elasmtp-galgo.atl.sa.earthlink.net>
Message-ID: <trinity-442ecc90-bbea-45f3-83de-8f55aadba5de-1444608189348@3capp-mailcom-lxa15>

The Netsol support pages are disinfo? bullshit 
 
 

Sent: Sunday, October 11, 2015 at 11:52 PM
From: "John Young" <jya at pipeline.com>
To: cypherpunks at cpunks.org
Subject: Re: Why cryptome sold web logs to their paying customers?
At 06:54 PM 10/11/2015, you wrote:

>So why does Netsol contradict JYA about the log settings?

NetSol is a bundle of contradictions, the essence of ISPs.

We have always logged the actions of our ISPs and their ISPs,
upstream and downstream, services and support, security and vulns.
So too mail lists, SM, chats, as instructed by this forum and its many
offshoots working all sides, warning of perfidy to hide perfidy.

Check those links we posted about how the spies work this fertile
terrain of paranoia and over-confidence, feeding the wired and wireless
news machine, advertisers and officials, now cybersecurity being
ratcheted up to WMD level. Coders as glamorous as physicists.
Nobels and MacArthurs acoming. And the opportunist anti-coders
smelling the coffee of protests. Cryptographers facing the opprobrium
of WMD-makers when the public grasps what fools they have been
taken for through the same old scam, public protection requires
ever greater national secrecy among the select. Unbreakable crypto
then declared illegal everywhere, and only cryptographers know
what unbreakable means: smoke and mirrors, lots of mirrors.


 




From drjfeinstein at mail.com  Sun Oct 11 17:05:47 2015
From: drjfeinstein at mail.com (Dr. J Feinstein)
Date: Mon, 12 Oct 2015 02:05:47 +0200
Subject: Why cryptome sold web logs to their paying customers?
Message-ID: <trinity-5730d96d-55a3-4ae5-b362-50ce9ff9c050-1444608347513@3capp-mailcom-lxa15>


Signed up for the lidt to get answers about this but its just more BS
 
 

Sent: Sunday, October 11, 2015 at 11:52 PM
From: "John Young" <jya at pipeline.com>
To: cypherpunks at cpunks.org
Subject: Re: Why cryptome sold web logs to their paying customers?
At 06:54 PM 10/11/2015, you wrote:

>So why does Netsol contradict JYA about the log settings?

NetSol is a bundle of contradictions, the essence of ISPs.

We have always logged the actions of our ISPs and their ISPs,
upstream and downstream, services and support, security and vulns.
So too mail lists, SM, chats, as instructed by this forum and its many
offshoots working all sides, warning of perfidy to hide perfidy.

Check those links we posted about how the spies work this fertile
terrain of paranoia and over-confidence, feeding the wired and wireless
news machine, advertisers and officials, now cybersecurity being
ratcheted up to WMD level. Coders as glamorous as physicists.
Nobels and MacArthurs acoming. And the opportunist anti-coders
smelling the coffee of protests. Cryptographers facing the opprobrium
of WMD-makers when the public grasps what fools they have been
taken for through the same old scam, public protection requires
ever greater national secrecy among the select. Unbreakable crypto
then declared illegal everywhere, and only cryptographers know
what unbreakable means: smoke and mirrors, lots of mirrors.


 




From drjfeinstein at mail.com  Sun Oct 11 17:39:58 2015
From: drjfeinstein at mail.com (Dr. J Feinstein)
Date: Mon, 12 Oct 2015 02:39:58 +0200
Subject: Why cryptome sold web logs to their paying customers?
In-Reply-To: <CAHOTMVL5pN-YrUu11dYAH0zTqZPSFrLsoGjwj-Oix65MSNFriw@mail.gmail.com>
References: <trinity-b02ae0ca-cf2b-4a45-92a1-0e62c13073c1-1444582943216@3capp-mailcom-lxa16>,
 <CAHOTMVL5pN-YrUu11dYAH0zTqZPSFrLsoGjwj-Oix65MSNFriw@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <trinity-2e13eb60-2b7e-4e83-aaef-bfc175323b9c-1444610398181@3capp-mailcom-lxa15>

I call it less crazy than anything JYAs said on it
 
 

Sent: Monday, October 12, 2015 at 12:33 AM
From: "Tony Arcieri" <bascule at gmail.com>
To: "Dr. J Feinstein" <drjfeinstein at mail.com>
Cc: "cypherpunks at cpunks.org" <cypherpunks at cpunks.org>
Subject: Re: Why cryptome sold web logs to their paying customers?
Cryptome is run by a crank who refuses to use HTTPS and thinks it's better to just let all the passive observers see completely what is being read by anyone who accesses Cryptome. If you ask him why, you'll get a deluge of crazy.
 
I think the role of Cryptome would be better served by someone who actually wants to use cryptography to secure content delivery. Call me crazy...
 
Cue claims i've been deluded by the CA cabal or don't understand SSL/TLS attacks. I don't care. Fuck your plaintext
On Sunday, October 11, 2015, Dr. J Feinstein <drjfeinstein at mail.com> wrote:

Calling bullshit. Mirimirs right, explanation makes no sense. And JYA says netsol won't let him delete the logs but Netsol says logs are disabled by default[https://www.networksolutions.com/support/how-to-enable-download-the-web-logs/] and you have to turn them on.

So how the fuckd this really happen?

Mirimir <mirimir at riseup.net> 
Are you arguing that users could have found those logs?

I almost can't imagine that. Logs are normally in /var/log/ somewhere,
and I can't imagine making them searchable. And indeed, I can't imagine
how Cryptome archives would have included anything from /var/log/, even
after system restore from backups.

<--SNIP-->

> Should access logs be kept for that long? Absolutely not. From what I> have read in the email exchange that was posted, the log files were> included in a NetSol total restore. My guess is that John/Cryptome did> not intentionally keep these files, and did not realize these files were> included in the archive.
But that's the thing. Logs should have been in /var/log/. And how would
the "NetSol total restore" have changed that?

> When I do incremental backups or updates on my own systems, I don't> usually go back and check the integrity of files I've already archived> in my closed system. I can see where this could be an honest mistake> that has gotten blown way out of proportion. It's a good lesson to be> more aware of these types of glitches.
I still don't get how logs would have ended up in archives. Maybe JYA
prepared a special set of archives for a collaborator. Maybe for someone
helping him to understand what had happened. And then maybe he forgot
about doing that. Hard to say.

--
Tony Arcieri
 




From carimachet at gmail.com  Sun Oct 11 17:16:01 2015
From: carimachet at gmail.com (Cari Machet)
Date: Mon, 12 Oct 2015 03:16:01 +0300
Subject: Nominee officers and directors (was: Why cryptome sold web
 logs...)
In-Reply-To: <CAJVRA1S2NphRg+sJRHCdyCmVEvEMR=9D59JFA9H+pRW3py3bLg@mail.gmail.com>
References: <N1B-gdbhE0RlY3@Safe-mail.net>
 <CAJVRA1S2NphRg+sJRHCdyCmVEvEMR=9D59JFA9H+pRW3py3bLg@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAGRDzQU0gvW_58LMfEA_JCAzfGQmZ1SUd4JPEd+pbOE09Tgo4A@mail.gmail.com>

Americans often have mindsets that reflect the states isolationism cause
the parasite of the state lives happily in them
On Oct 12, 2015 2:22 AM, "coderman" <coderman at gmail.com> wrote:

> On 10/11/15, wirelesswarrior at safe-mail.net
> <wirelesswarrior at safe-mail.net> wrote:
> > Despite almost two decades of cypherpunk activity I cannot fathom why
> U.S.
> > residents operate sites clearly in the cross-hairs of intel agencies.
>
> there is a specific gambit or protection as US citizen operating a
> personal service with personal resources and not in any formal or
> for-profit manner.
>
> in some circumstances, against some adversaries, this provides the
> best "signal of interest" to respond to, although as you state:
> absolute protection is near impossible in a moment, let alone
> maintained...
>
>
> it works great... until it doesn't?
>   [ ah well, grarpamp said we were playing for keeps! *grin* ]
>
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From odinn.cyberguerrilla at riseup.net  Sun Oct 11 20:21:20 2015
From: odinn.cyberguerrilla at riseup.net (odinn)
Date: Mon, 12 Oct 2015 03:21:20 +0000
Subject: Nominee officers and directors (was: Why cryptome sold web
 logs...)
In-Reply-To: <N1B-gdbhE0RlY3@Safe-mail.net>
References: <N1B-gdbhE0RlY3@Safe-mail.net>
Message-ID: <561B2730.5020909@riseup.net>

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA512

How does an individual become a "bona fide contractor" to avoid being
"subject to either receiving or implementing court orders or NSLs" as
you put it, and in what circumstances would I want to be a "bona fide
contractor?"  I am certain not everyone would want to be one, for
various reasons.

wirelesswarrior at safe-mail.net:
> Despite almost two decades of cypherpunk activity I cannot fathom
> why U.S. residents operate sites clearly in the cross-hairs of
> intel agencies. Have they never heard of non-resident nominee
> officers and directors? All U.S. resident people dealing with the
> site should be bona fide contractors so they aren't subject to
> either receiving or implementing court orders or NSLs.
> 
> -------- Original Message -------- From: bbrewer
> <bbrewer at littledystopia.net> Apparently from:
> cypherpunks-bounces at cpunks.org To: Michael Best
> <themikebest at gmail.com> Cc: cpunks <cypherpunks at cpunks.org>,
> cryptome <cryptome at freelists.org> Subject: Re: [cryptome] Re: Why
> cryptome sold web logs to their payingcustomers? Date: Sun, 11 Oct
> 2015 16:30:00 -0400
> 
>> 
>>> On Oct 11, 2015, at 4:22 PM, Michael Best
>>> <themikebest at gmail.com> wrote:
>>> 
>>> Anyway to rule this out other than hearing it from John? How
>>> long before we begin to seriously consider it or assume it?
>>> 
>>> And if there was a NSL, why not shut down? Why put users at
>>> ongoing risk??
>> 
>> 
>> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lavabit
>> 
>> "Levison said that he could be arrested for closing the site
>> instead of releasing the information, and it was reported that
>> the federal prosecutor's office had sent Levison's lawyer an
>> e-mail to that effect.”
>> 
>> I’m just blabbering on suppositions here, but I wouldn’t be
>> surprised by… anything.
>> 
>> -benjamin
> 
> 

- -- 
http://abis.io ~
"a protocol concept to enable decentralization
and expansion of a giving economy, and a new social good"
https://keybase.io/odinn
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From jdb10987 at yahoo.com  Sun Oct 11 21:50:45 2015
From: jdb10987 at yahoo.com (jim bell)
Date: Mon, 12 Oct 2015 04:50:45 +0000 (UTC)
Subject: [cryptome] Re: NatSecGeek
In-Reply-To: <04208030-FF28-4110-9565-14F6E97A82C6@gmail.com>
References: <04208030-FF28-4110-9565-14F6E97A82C6@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <218779857.2246032.1444625445933.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com>

>From: Michael Best <themikebest at gmail.com>
>Just had it pointed out to me "luser" was just internet slang, and not really an insult. Sorry I got a little defensive after that.  

My recollection is that "luser" originally (40 years ago) was supposed to stand for "logged-in user" in Unix.  But it presumably survived for its humorous connotations.           Jim Bell  
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From shelley at misanthropia.org  Mon Oct 12 06:08:41 2015
From: shelley at misanthropia.org (Shelley)
Date: Mon, 12 Oct 2015 06:08:41 -0700
Subject: [cryptome] Re: [cryptome]
In-Reply-To: <CANFTA09UC2oWcg89550b_WL5XC2fEX4O+XN=mWaoWhtzK_9Pxg@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CANFTA0-9zYonRQQod7x0pRa60r0aBBHUvbbf+yn=_TMG3Dzt9A@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAGRDzQVfu4LhGvYrOU0Cwh7A3RSM5J2-ynthp6mj6Cw7pyfOmg@mail.gmail.com>
 <CANFTA09UC2oWcg89550b_WL5XC2fEX4O+XN=mWaoWhtzK_9Pxg@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <20151012130825.21AB668022A@frontend2.nyi.internal>

On October 12, 2015 4:09:39 AM Michael Best <themikebest at gmail.com> wrote:

> This is weird, right? I feel like I'm in Zoolander, "taking crazy pills" I
> didn't ask the list the right way but JYA lying/accusing gets nothing?

Resistance is futile!  It's far better to just walk away from an argument 
with Cari than to feel like you're losing your sanity.  You'll never "win" 
or get your point across clearly, no matter how many times you repeat it.  
Her lack of punctuation and logic hurts my brain, please make it stop!

-S


>
> On Mon, Oct 12, 2015 at 1:37 AM, Cari Machet <carimachet at gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > No i am talking about this list - this list is a community
> >
> > You did not ask this list for help that i can see ... prove me wrong
> >
> > You are saying jy did not admit ... you complain about it yet accept no
> > critique of said by you
> >
> > Have a think about it go for a walk rest take a few days and get back to
> > me after
> > On Oct 11, 2015 7:38 PM, "Michael Best" <themikebest at gmail.com> wrote:
> >
> >> *Cari Machet* carimachet at gmail.com
> >>>
> >>> 
> <carimachet%40gmail.com?Subject=Re%3A%20%5Bcryptome%5D%20Re%3A%20%5Bcryptome%5D&In-Reply-To=%3CCAGRDzQWNCCe7AUOL%3D-YoFUdi5%2Bm2KPxsq30D3OJzgJjQUrMaCw%40mail.gmail.com%3E>*Sun
> >>> Oct 11 12:25:43 EDT 2015*
> >>> reveal was to protect the community (fr john) then why was that act >
> >>> protecting the community > avoided by mike
> >>
> >> Plus no ask to the list but said asked the list and if the point of the
> >>>
> >>
> >> First email asked for help, no reason the list was excluded from that
> >> even though I explicitly asked John for help verifying it. Then I asked
> >> open endedly on Twitter.
> >>
> >> Also, you seem to be confusing this list with the community of Cryptome's
> >> visitors. There's overlap, sure, but they are *not* the same.
> >>
> >> Plus, John deleted the early emails I made to the Cryptome list, which is
> >> more explicitly the mailing list that would be best identified as the
> >> community you're referring to.
> >>
> >





From shelley at misanthropia.org  Mon Oct 12 06:46:33 2015
From: shelley at misanthropia.org (Shelley)
Date: Mon, 12 Oct 2015 06:46:33 -0700
Subject: WHY make a fake GCHQ slide?
In-Reply-To: <CANFTA0-rPOOjcNoPQvgxehD52pYK-DHK7eDzSJ=o=xtS-Uue5A@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CANFTA0-DN1XRUNc=xhEw3X2r=6MsOn30f-uobhkq98zUJPSqkA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAJVRA1SZYodFH+ESF8zekqa+3Y9LjzWn3YHTwtnfCL8kbJK=Rw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CANFTA08UhvWyA8ssLH7cp8-HzkOyrsqdfNqG24oMeDOig+eeTA@mail.gmail.com>
 <20151012114534.GB2778@sivokote.iziade.m$>
 <CANFTA0-H4=9ZBvhXO8yFeGs+WapYd2JaiYYioFacNS5u=djCNw@mail.gmail.com>
 <20151012121921.GC2778@sivokote.iziade.m$>
 <CANFTA0_gGhL-cZ3TwKLR5KQWNz57-dTqAPST9pS2FnzrO-FL5g@mail.gmail.com>
 <20151012125507.GD2778@sivokote.iziade.m$>
 <CANFTA08-nvMeetibdVNAn0r_OfQMQNDgaxpZ0qX96FjdC93C2g@mail.gmail.com>
 <20151012131038.GE2778@sivokote.iziade.m$>
 <CANFTA0-rPOOjcNoPQvgxehD52pYK-DHK7eDzSJ=o=xtS-Uue5A@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <20151012134617.495AE6800ED@frontend2.nyi.internal>

On October 12, 2015 6:20:46 AM Michael Best <themikebest at gmail.com> wrote:

> I tried to list their motives under the GCHQ/UK motives, who would be more
> likely to fake the slide anyway and are the ones alleged of having leaked
> documents to the Independent on behalf of JTRIG, are a fairly likely
> candidate.

Yes, you did list a number of possibilities.  It sometimes seems as though 
the same few people do not read and/or comprehend responses before replying 
to them.

>Faking a slide like this would be a good way to inspire paranoia
> and divide a community, no? It got Cryptome to post a notice on their site
> for a week or two, alerting people to the possibility that they'd been
> targeted by GCHQ by visiting Cryptome. Sounds like JTRIG-ish paranoia, no?

Agreed.  It could be an effective way to deter visitors to Cryptome, 
possibly to divert attention away from something posted there around the 
time this all began.

-S

>
> On Mon, Oct 12, 2015 at 9:10 AM, Georgi Guninski <guninski at guninski.com>
> wrote:
>
> >
> > 
> https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Joint_Threat_Research_Intelligence_Group&oldid=670966374
> >
> > Joint Threat Research Intelligence Group
> >
> > In June 2015, NSA files published by Glenn Greenwald revealed new
> > details about JTRIG's work at covertly manipulating online
> > communities.[6]
> >
> >
> > On Mon, Oct 12, 2015 at 08:58:33AM -0400, Michael Best wrote:
> > > >
> > > > So assuming Snowden "borrowed" the slide from the NSA and he didn't get
> > >
> > > owned, the slide is _REAL_.
> > >
> > >
> > > I don't think I understand your mean, if we assuming it's real, it
> > follows
> > > that it's real? I think I walked into a language barrier.
> > >
> > >
> > > > Having in mind Snowden likely have large pile of slides, if he got
> > > > owned, likely all/the majority of them would likely be fake.
> > > > Is this plausible?
> > >
> > >
> > > Not necessarily, that's not how disinfo works a lot of the time.
> > >
> > > And did you missed the us-natsec trolling about the eu appearing to
> > > > trust Snowden's slides (though sometimes they can't prove it)?
> > >
> > >
> > > No, there just wasn't much to respond to.
> > >
> > > On Mon, Oct 12, 2015 at 8:55 AM, Georgi Guninski <guninski at guninski.com>
> > > wrote:
> > >
> > > > So assuming Snowden "borrowed" the slide from the NSA and he didn't get
> > > > owned, the slide is _REAL_.
> > > >
> > > > Having in mind Snowden likely have large pile of slides, if he got
> > > > owned, likely all/the majority of them would likely be fake.
> > > >
> > > > Is this plausible?
> > > >
> > > > And did you missed the us-natsec trolling about the eu appearing to
> > > > trust Snowden's slides (though sometimes they can't prove it)?
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > On Mon, Oct 12, 2015 at 08:22:37AM -0400, Michael Best wrote:
> > > > > No but as I and others have noted, he didn't look at all of the
> > materials
> > > > > he handed over to journalists and couldn't possibly be expected to
> > > > remember
> > > > > all the ones he did see well enough to possibly be able to ID this
> > one as
> > > > > altered or forged. He was only able to argue against the other
> > documents
> > > > > because he had never been in touch with the outlet releasing them,
> > > > contrary
> > > > > to their apparent belief.
> > > > >
> > > > > On Mon, Oct 12, 2015 at 8:19 AM, Georgi Guninski <
> > guninski at guninski.com>
> > > > > wrote:
> > > > >
> > > > > > On Mon, Oct 12, 2015 at 07:50:14AM -0400, Michael Best wrote:
> > > > > > > As I think I said in the other thread, less specific charges that
> > > > require
> > > > > > > more specific proof and almost never leveled before a trial is
> > set,
> > > > > > because
> > > > > > > it forces the issue to be tried in the court of public opinion,
> > > > where a
> > > > > > lot
> > > > > > > of information can't be released lest it spoil an investigation
> > or
> > > > > > > potential trial. There's also the fact that there'd be little to
> > > > gain at
> > > > > > > this point by alleging that the slides are fake since there
> > would be
> > > > few
> > > > > > > people to believe it,
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > "NSA hasn't said it's fake" doesn't seem like a strong argument -
> > > > > > > especially for a non-NSA slide. And again - *Snowden himself* has
> > > > accused
> > > > > > > outlets of releasing slides attributed to him that *he says he
> > did
> > > > not
> > > > > > > provide*.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > Likely the NSA would distribute fake slides just to discredit
> > Snowden.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Does Snowden deny the authencity of this slide?
> > > > > >
> > > > > > This slide appeared in _too many_ news AFAICT to get unnoticed.
> > > > > >
> > > >
> >





From themikebest at gmail.com  Mon Oct 12 04:04:05 2015
From: themikebest at gmail.com (Michael Best)
Date: Mon, 12 Oct 2015 07:04:05 -0400
Subject: [cryptome] Re: [cryptome]
In-Reply-To: <CAGRDzQVfu4LhGvYrOU0Cwh7A3RSM5J2-ynthp6mj6Cw7pyfOmg@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CANFTA0-9zYonRQQod7x0pRa60r0aBBHUvbbf+yn=_TMG3Dzt9A@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAGRDzQVfu4LhGvYrOU0Cwh7A3RSM5J2-ynthp6mj6Cw7pyfOmg@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CANFTA09eJ=NRdckR8VrWnoyWxXWC=n67eOUA58KM+==YyRqnxw@mail.gmail.com>

Again, look at the first email where I asked for help verifying it, Cari.
Sorry if it wasn't direct enough for your tastes.

On Mon, Oct 12, 2015 at 1:37 AM, Cari Machet <carimachet at gmail.com> wrote:

> No i am talking about this list - this list is a community
>
> You did not ask this list for help that i can see ... prove me wrong
>
> You are saying jy did not admit ... you complain about it yet accept no
> critique of said by you
>
> Have a think about it go for a walk rest take a few days and get back to
> me after
> On Oct 11, 2015 7:38 PM, "Michael Best" <themikebest at gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> *Cari Machet* carimachet at gmail.com
>>>
>>> <carimachet%40gmail.com?Subject=Re%3A%20%5Bcryptome%5D%20Re%3A%20%5Bcryptome%5D&In-Reply-To=%3CCAGRDzQWNCCe7AUOL%3D-YoFUdi5%2Bm2KPxsq30D3OJzgJjQUrMaCw%40mail.gmail.com%3E>*Sun
>>> Oct 11 12:25:43 EDT 2015*
>>> reveal was to protect the community (fr john) then why was that act >
>>> protecting the community > avoided by mike
>>
>> Plus no ask to the list but said asked the list and if the point of the
>>>
>>
>> First email asked for help, no reason the list was excluded from that
>> even though I explicitly asked John for help verifying it. Then I asked
>> open endedly on Twitter.
>>
>> Also, you seem to be confusing this list with the community of Cryptome's
>> visitors. There's overlap, sure, but they are *not* the same.
>>
>> Plus, John deleted the early emails I made to the Cryptome list, which is
>> more explicitly the mailing list that would be best identified as the
>> community you're referring to.
>>
>
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From shelley at misanthropia.org  Mon Oct 12 07:07:35 2015
From: shelley at misanthropia.org (Shelley)
Date: Mon, 12 Oct 2015 07:07:35 -0700
Subject: WHY make a fake GCHQ slide?
In-Reply-To: <CANFTA09kcmcC4pHKVP1rtLtO_UQa8kTMjaaP5Hx23mk=F2okiA@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CANFTA0-DN1XRUNc=xhEw3X2r=6MsOn30f-uobhkq98zUJPSqkA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAJVRA1SZYodFH+ESF8zekqa+3Y9LjzWn3YHTwtnfCL8kbJK=Rw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CANFTA08UhvWyA8ssLH7cp8-HzkOyrsqdfNqG24oMeDOig+eeTA@mail.gmail.com>
 <20151012114534.GB2778@sivokote.iziade.m$>
 <CANFTA0-H4=9ZBvhXO8yFeGs+WapYd2JaiYYioFacNS5u=djCNw@mail.gmail.com>
 <20151012121921.GC2778@sivokote.iziade.m$>
 <CANFTA0_gGhL-cZ3TwKLR5KQWNz57-dTqAPST9pS2FnzrO-FL5g@mail.gmail.com>
 <20151012125507.GD2778@sivokote.iziade.m$>
 <CANFTA08-nvMeetibdVNAn0r_OfQMQNDgaxpZ0qX96FjdC93C2g@mail.gmail.com>
 <20151012131038.GE2778@sivokote.iziade.m$>
 <CANFTA0-rPOOjcNoPQvgxehD52pYK-DHK7eDzSJ=o=xtS-Uue5A@mail.gmail.com>
 <20151012134617.495AE6800ED@frontend2.nyi.internal>
 <CANFTA09kcmcC4pHKVP1rtLtO_UQa8kTMjaaP5Hx23mk=F2okiA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <20151012140718.A97246801CF@frontend2.nyi.internal>

On October 12, 2015 6:55:04 AM Michael Best <themikebest at gmail.com> wrote:

> I think Snowden has become such a folk hero that some people may leap to
> defend what seems like an attack on him without taking as much time to look
> at the data/posts as they would otherwise.


That's a fair point.  That's why it's so dangerous to beatify anyone; it's 
an all too easy exploit for TLAs and other bad actors to use.  It's like 
screaming into the ether, though...


>
> On Mon, Oct 12, 2015 at 9:46 AM, Shelley <shelley at misanthropia.org> wrote:
>
> > On October 12, 2015 6:20:46 AM Michael Best <themikebest at gmail.com> wrote:
> >
> > I tried to list their motives under the GCHQ/UK motives, who would be more
> >> likely to fake the slide anyway and are the ones alleged of having leaked
> >> documents to the Independent on behalf of JTRIG, are a fairly likely
> >> candidate.
> >>
> >
> > Yes, you did list a number of possibilities.  It sometimes seems as though
> > the same few people do not read and/or comprehend responses before replying
> > to them.
> >
> > Faking a slide like this would be a good way to inspire paranoia
> >> and divide a community, no? It got Cryptome to post a notice on their site
> >> for a week or two, alerting people to the possibility that they'd been
> >> targeted by GCHQ by visiting Cryptome. Sounds like JTRIG-ish paranoia, no?
> >>
> >
> > Agreed.  It could be an effective way to deter visitors to Cryptome,
> > possibly to divert attention away from something posted there around the
> > time this all began.
> >
> > -S
> >
> >
> >
> >> On Mon, Oct 12, 2015 at 9:10 AM, Georgi Guninski <guninski at guninski.com>
> >> wrote:
> >>
> >> >
> >> >
> >> 
> https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Joint_Threat_Research_Intelligence_Group&oldid=670966374
> >> >
> >> > Joint Threat Research Intelligence Group
> >> >
> >> > In June 2015, NSA files published by Glenn Greenwald revealed new
> >> > details about JTRIG's work at covertly manipulating online
> >> > communities.[6]
> >> >
> >> >
> >> > On Mon, Oct 12, 2015 at 08:58:33AM -0400, Michael Best wrote:
> >> > > >
> >> > > > So assuming Snowden "borrowed" the slide from the NSA and he didn't
> >> get
> >> > >
> >> > > owned, the slide is _REAL_.
> >> > >
> >> > >
> >> > > I don't think I understand your mean, if we assuming it's real, it
> >> > follows
> >> > > that it's real? I think I walked into a language barrier.
> >> > >
> >> > >
> >> > > > Having in mind Snowden likely have large pile of slides, if he got
> >> > > > owned, likely all/the majority of them would likely be fake.
> >> > > > Is this plausible?
> >> > >
> >> > >
> >> > > Not necessarily, that's not how disinfo works a lot of the time.
> >> > >
> >> > > And did you missed the us-natsec trolling about the eu appearing to
> >> > > > trust Snowden's slides (though sometimes they can't prove it)?
> >> > >
> >> > >
> >> > > No, there just wasn't much to respond to.
> >> > >
> >> > > On Mon, Oct 12, 2015 at 8:55 AM, Georgi Guninski <
> >> guninski at guninski.com>
> >> > > wrote:
> >> > >
> >> > > > So assuming Snowden "borrowed" the slide from the NSA and he didn't
> >> get
> >> > > > owned, the slide is _REAL_.
> >> > > >
> >> > > > Having in mind Snowden likely have large pile of slides, if he got
> >> > > > owned, likely all/the majority of them would likely be fake.
> >> > > >
> >> > > > Is this plausible?
> >> > > >
> >> > > > And did you missed the us-natsec trolling about the eu appearing to
> >> > > > trust Snowden's slides (though sometimes they can't prove it)?
> >> > > >
> >> > > >
> >> > > > On Mon, Oct 12, 2015 at 08:22:37AM -0400, Michael Best wrote:
> >> > > > > No but as I and others have noted, he didn't look at all of the
> >> > materials
> >> > > > > he handed over to journalists and couldn't possibly be expected to
> >> > > > remember
> >> > > > > all the ones he did see well enough to possibly be able to ID this
> >> > one as
> >> > > > > altered or forged. He was only able to argue against the other
> >> > documents
> >> > > > > because he had never been in touch with the outlet releasing them,
> >> > > > contrary
> >> > > > > to their apparent belief.
> >> > > > >
> >> > > > > On Mon, Oct 12, 2015 at 8:19 AM, Georgi Guninski <
> >> > guninski at guninski.com>
> >> > > > > wrote:
> >> > > > >
> >> > > > > > On Mon, Oct 12, 2015 at 07:50:14AM -0400, Michael Best wrote:
> >> > > > > > > As I think I said in the other thread, less specific charges
> >> that
> >> > > > require
> >> > > > > > > more specific proof and almost never leveled before a trial is
> >> > set,
> >> > > > > > because
> >> > > > > > > it forces the issue to be tried in the court of public
> >> opinion,
> >> > > > where a
> >> > > > > > lot
> >> > > > > > > of information can't be released lest it spoil an
> >> investigation
> >> > or
> >> > > > > > > potential trial. There's also the fact that there'd be little
> >> to
> >> > > > gain at
> >> > > > > > > this point by alleging that the slides are fake since there
> >> > would be
> >> > > > few
> >> > > > > > > people to believe it,
> >> > > > > > >
> >> > > > > > > "NSA hasn't said it's fake" doesn't seem like a strong
> >> argument -
> >> > > > > > > especially for a non-NSA slide. And again - *Snowden himself*
> >> has
> >> > > > accused
> >> > > > > > > outlets of releasing slides attributed to him that *he says he
> >> > did
> >> > > > not
> >> > > > > > > provide*.
> >> > > > > > >
> >> > > > > > Likely the NSA would distribute fake slides just to discredit
> >> > Snowden.
> >> > > > > >
> >> > > > > > Does Snowden deny the authencity of this slide?
> >> > > > > >
> >> > > > > > This slide appeared in _too many_ news AFAICT to get unnoticed.
> >> > > > > >
> >> > > >
> >> >
> >>
> >
> >
> >





From themikebest at gmail.com  Mon Oct 12 04:24:00 2015
From: themikebest at gmail.com (Michael Best)
Date: Mon, 12 Oct 2015 07:24:00 -0400
Subject: WHY make a fake GCHQ slide?
In-Reply-To: <CAJVRA1SZYodFH+ESF8zekqa+3Y9LjzWn3YHTwtnfCL8kbJK=Rw@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CANFTA0-DN1XRUNc=xhEw3X2r=6MsOn30f-uobhkq98zUJPSqkA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAJVRA1SZYodFH+ESF8zekqa+3Y9LjzWn3YHTwtnfCL8kbJK=Rw@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CANFTA08UhvWyA8ssLH7cp8-HzkOyrsqdfNqG24oMeDOig+eeTA@mail.gmail.com>

Can anyone poke a hole in my logic for any of the possibilities, or come up
with alternate potential faker (again, if it is fake, only the possibility
has been demonstrated) or alternate motives?


"For the lols" is one such possibility as coderman points out. That motive
could be tacked onto most of the potential fakers, but it does also sound
like something a small group of "anons" might do. Unfortunately that
category is so wide (potentially everyone on Earth) and it's a suspicion
based on a stereotype, so I'm not sure if or how to follow-up with it.

On Sun, Oct 11, 2015 at 6:31 PM, coderman <coderman at gmail.com> wrote:

> On 10/10/15, Michael Best <themikebest at gmail.com> wrote:
> > Here's my preliminary list of potential reasons for faking a GCHQ
> > slide...
>
> Michael one additional reason is amusement.
>  for example, QUANTUM SQUIRREL [0] which is fuckin' lol
>
>
> best regards,
>  and chortle onward!
>
>
> 0. "QUANTUM SQUIRREL SLIDE"
>  -
> https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/3/3a/QUANTUMSQUIRREL.jpg/220px-QUANTUMSQUIRREL.jpg
>  [ https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tailored_Access_Operations ]
>
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From Rayzer at riseup.net  Mon Oct 12 07:26:05 2015
From: Rayzer at riseup.net (Razer)
Date: Mon, 12 Oct 2015 07:26:05 -0700
Subject: Hundreds of underhanded violations of computers and networks,
In-Reply-To: <E1Zlc7A-0000CQ-6f@elasmtp-masked.atl.sa.earthlink.net>
References: <CANFTA0-DN1XRUNc=xhEw3X2r=6MsOn30f-uobhkq98zUJPSqkA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAJVRA1SZYodFH+ESF8zekqa+3Y9LjzWn3YHTwtnfCL8kbJK=Rw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CANFTA08UhvWyA8ssLH7cp8-HzkOyrsqdfNqG24oMeDOig+eeTA@mail.gmail.com>
 <20151012114534.GB2778@sivokote.iziade.m$>
 <E1Zlc7A-0000CQ-6f@elasmtp-masked.atl.sa.earthlink.net>
Message-ID: <561BC2FD.3080803@riseup.net>

The t.co link called by the long link text, which redirects TO the long
link, runs this script:

#
function(){return!!navigator.geolocation},history:function(){return!(!n.history||!n.history.pushState)},webworker:function(){return!!n.Worker},autofocus:function(){return"autofocus"in
#

RR


On 10/12/2015 05:23 AM, John Young wrote:
> Prepare for cyberwar career: 163 7-day free books on hundreds
> of underhanded violations of computers and networks,
>
> http://www. amazon.
> com/s/ref=dp_byline_sr_book_1?ie=UTF8&text=EC-Council&search-alias=books&field-author=EC-Council&sort=relevancerank…


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From Rayzer at riseup.net  Mon Oct 12 07:36:17 2015
From: Rayzer at riseup.net (Razer)
Date: Mon, 12 Oct 2015 07:36:17 -0700
Subject: why we need more cryptome mirrors, in all corners
In-Reply-To: <CAJVRA1QMqMQL8+At127bHNyX21jTwvdC1_O0shmisRtSE+Fo4g@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAJVRA1QMqMQL8+At127bHNyX21jTwvdC1_O0shmisRtSE+Fo4g@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <561BC561.6020605@riseup.net>

"Let me make this PERFECTLY CLEAR"

It's not a 'mirror'. So far as I can see, it's a dump. The National
Security Archive maintains a mirror @IA and you aren't going to find any
dox 'in the wild' or modified, or even SUSPECTED of being modified dox
on that reflector.


On 10/11/2015 03:45 PM, coderman wrote:

> for this, i am quite grateful to see the archive.org natsec section
> expanded with cryptome mirror!
>



On 10/11/2015 03:45 PM, coderman wrote:

On 10/10/15, Shelley <shelley at misanthropia.org> wrote:

> ...
> The Cryptome archives *are* publicly accessible.  John limits bots and
> leechers to a certain number of files per day (as is his right, he is
> paying for the bandwidth), approx 100 iirc, but anyone who can use search
> strings can find anything on the site.

it is exceptionally difficult, short of ordering physical duplicates,
to obtain a significant portion of cryptome archive from cryptome.org.

part of this is inherent abuse - any mirror gets serious algorithmic
beatings - akin to HackingTeam mirrors perhaps, not counting the
mindless cloud VM bot walkers, annoying enough.  even the hidden
service only mirrors got offensive proddings. remember, some of
cryptome-opponents are relying on obscurity - thwarted every time some
makes a mirror...

for this, i am quite grateful to see the archive.org natsec section
expanded with cryptome mirror!
https://archive.org/details/nationalsecurityarchive

thanks to all involved (esp. you, Michael 


best regards,


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From list at sysfu.com  Mon Oct 12 07:39:08 2015
From: list at sysfu.com (Seth)
Date: Mon, 12 Oct 2015 07:39:08 -0700
Subject: Why cryptome sold web logs to their paying customers?
In-Reply-To: <CANFTA0-NDWijRT_1s2oETu20-Dn9zOkYSpj4cmQ96pid8f6dgg@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CANFTA09pppGsfA85-L_+-nOt5uK1Ov2G=tWf7MCYab9YrrsNoA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAJVRA1RDiSwYi=udi-ZYnc5f0TL32wGt4Lqmf1jxog42JJeBmQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <CANFTA094Trr=dfGwPneTp1MzxLYCN_5oqfC=Jqo7KjuK+fazVQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <CANFTA0-NDWijRT_1s2oETu20-Dn9zOkYSpj4cmQ96pid8f6dgg@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <op.x6edniogbgbjo9@mm.local>

On Mon, 12 Oct 2015 05:20:10 -0700, Michael Best <themikebest at gmail.com>  
wrote:

> Just found  
> http://comptutor.me/2015/04/03/bulletproof-offshore-hosting-and-servers/
>
> Has anyone on the list had any experience with any of these "Anonymous,  
> Bulletproof, and Offshore Hosting Providers"? Obviously 'bulletproof' is  
> marketing hype, but...
>
>
>>>> This is a list of Anonymous, Bulletproof, and Offshore Hosting  
>>>> Providers.
>>
>> Links marked with an asterisk are hosts that accept Bitcoin.
>> The list is in no particular order.
>>
>> https://www.orangewebsite.com *
>>
>> https://www.1984hosting.com
A few years ago I used 1984hosting.com shared hosting for a year and  
change.

They are committed to using free software throughout, for example their  
web panel used ispCP if I remember correctly, and their support was  
competent and responsive.

I've heard that their VPS offering is the better product offering but at a  
$25/mo starting price, I decided that to look elsewhere for a personal  
micro-VPS to run a very light duty mail,web dns server etc.

I believe that Orangewebsite resells 1984.is infrastructure services.
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From shelley at misanthropia.org  Mon Oct 12 07:40:51 2015
From: shelley at misanthropia.org (Shelley)
Date: Mon, 12 Oct 2015 07:40:51 -0700
Subject: WHY make a fake GCHQ slide?
In-Reply-To: <CANFTA0_htCCC37FLkizmE2rP5egPzvit9WZWX8h6eOyS7Ftx5A@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CANFTA0-DN1XRUNc=xhEw3X2r=6MsOn30f-uobhkq98zUJPSqkA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAJVRA1SZYodFH+ESF8zekqa+3Y9LjzWn3YHTwtnfCL8kbJK=Rw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CANFTA08UhvWyA8ssLH7cp8-HzkOyrsqdfNqG24oMeDOig+eeTA@mail.gmail.com>
 <20151012114534.GB2778@sivokote.iziade.m$>
 <CANFTA0-H4=9ZBvhXO8yFeGs+WapYd2JaiYYioFacNS5u=djCNw@mail.gmail.com>
 <20151012121921.GC2778@sivokote.iziade.m$>
 <CANFTA0_gGhL-cZ3TwKLR5KQWNz57-dTqAPST9pS2FnzrO-FL5g@mail.gmail.com>
 <20151012125507.GD2778@sivokote.iziade.m$>
 <CANFTA08-nvMeetibdVNAn0r_OfQMQNDgaxpZ0qX96FjdC93C2g@mail.gmail.com>
 <20151012131038.GE2778@sivokote.iziade.m$>
 <CANFTA0-rPOOjcNoPQvgxehD52pYK-DHK7eDzSJ=o=xtS-Uue5A@mail.gmail.com>
 <20151012134617.495AE6800ED@frontend2.nyi.internal>
 <CANFTA09kcmcC4pHKVP1rtLtO_UQa8kTMjaaP5Hx23mk=F2okiA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAKtE3zd+JhOSTP+HkZ_40KZKDuN5XZZxfB9PyE5fiG_gxQL6_w@mail.gmail.com>
 <CANFTA0_htCCC37FLkizmE2rP5egPzvit9WZWX8h6eOyS7Ftx5A@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <20151012144035.28DEB68013D@frontend2.nyi.internal>

I don't recall Mike ever saying the words, "this slide is a fake."

What is being put forth for discussion and review is the following:

With the log files that were included in the Cryptome archive,

*anyone* with access to those files could have made that slide,

because the data in the log files are from the same time period referred to 
in the slide.

Why is this so hard to comprehend?  I feel like this list has branched off 
into some alternate timeline where logic and critical thinking do not exist!

-S


On October 12, 2015 7:21:16 AM Michael Best <themikebest at gmail.com> wrote:

> I never said I proved the slide is fake, Travis. In fact, I've said several
> times that I've all done is prove that it could be fake. I said it in the
> mailing list and in the original posts on my site.
>
> *Please* try to read what you're criticizing/arguing/responding to. I know
> it can be hard, or boring, or frustrating, but it's essential to a dialogue
> that you respond to what the other person/side/position said and not
> confabulate something (as is human nature) or worse yet, build a strawman.
>
> Forcing your targets to *ahem* 'go dark' by instilling paranoia is exactly
> > the opposite of what 'an IA / TLA' wants.
>
>
> So categorical, monolithic and single minded! One might even say "overly
> so" lol
>
> On Mon, Oct 12, 2015 at 10:02 AM, Travis Biehn <tbiehn at gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > Mike,
> > You haven't proven that they were fake. Being able to counterfeit a dollar
> > bill does not all dollar bills counterfeit make. It's been one giant navel
> > gazing exercise.
> >
> > These disclosures only serve to further confirm opsec procedures long
> > recommended and employed. This slide is an advertisement for Tor (which
> > some hold to be a government honeypot, I do not.)
> >
> > Forcing your targets to *ahem* 'go dark' by instilling paranoia is exactly
> > the opposite of what 'an IA / TLA' wants.
> >
> > -Travis
> >
> > On Mon, Oct 12, 2015 at 9:55 AM, Michael Best <themikebest at gmail.com>
> > wrote:
> >
> >> I think Snowden has become such a folk hero that some people may leap to
> >> defend what seems like an attack on him without taking as much time to look
> >> at the data/posts as they would otherwise.
> >>
> >> On Mon, Oct 12, 2015 at 9:46 AM, Shelley <shelley at misanthropia.org>
> >> wrote:
> >>
> >>> On October 12, 2015 6:20:46 AM Michael Best <themikebest at gmail.com>
> >>> wrote:
> >>>
> >>> I tried to list their motives under the GCHQ/UK motives, who would be
> >>>> more
> >>>> likely to fake the slide anyway and are the ones alleged of having
> >>>> leaked
> >>>> documents to the Independent on behalf of JTRIG, are a fairly likely
> >>>> candidate.
> >>>>
> >>>
> >>> Yes, you did list a number of possibilities.  It sometimes seems as
> >>> though the same few people do not read and/or comprehend responses before
> >>> replying to them.
> >>>
> >>> Faking a slide like this would be a good way to inspire paranoia
> >>>> and divide a community, no? It got Cryptome to post a notice on their
> >>>> site
> >>>> for a week or two, alerting people to the possibility that they'd been
> >>>> targeted by GCHQ by visiting Cryptome. Sounds like JTRIG-ish paranoia,
> >>>> no?
> >>>>
> >>>
> >>> Agreed.  It could be an effective way to deter visitors to Cryptome,
> >>> possibly to divert attention away from something posted there around the
> >>> time this all began.
> >>>
> >>> -S
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>> On Mon, Oct 12, 2015 at 9:10 AM, Georgi Guninski <guninski at guninski.com
> >>>> >
> >>>> wrote:
> >>>>
> >>>> >
> >>>> >
> >>>> 
> https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Joint_Threat_Research_Intelligence_Group&oldid=670966374
> >>>> >
> >>>> > Joint Threat Research Intelligence Group
> >>>> >
> >>>> > In June 2015, NSA files published by Glenn Greenwald revealed new
> >>>> > details about JTRIG's work at covertly manipulating online
> >>>> > communities.[6]
> >>>> >
> >>>> >
> >>>> > On Mon, Oct 12, 2015 at 08:58:33AM -0400, Michael Best wrote:
> >>>> > > >
> >>>> > > > So assuming Snowden "borrowed" the slide from the NSA and he
> >>>> didn't get
> >>>> > >
> >>>> > > owned, the slide is _REAL_.
> >>>> > >
> >>>> > >
> >>>> > > I don't think I understand your mean, if we assuming it's real, it
> >>>> > follows
> >>>> > > that it's real? I think I walked into a language barrier.
> >>>> > >
> >>>> > >
> >>>> > > > Having in mind Snowden likely have large pile of slides, if he got
> >>>> > > > owned, likely all/the majority of them would likely be fake.
> >>>> > > > Is this plausible?
> >>>> > >
> >>>> > >
> >>>> > > Not necessarily, that's not how disinfo works a lot of the time.
> >>>> > >
> >>>> > > And did you missed the us-natsec trolling about the eu appearing to
> >>>> > > > trust Snowden's slides (though sometimes they can't prove it)?
> >>>> > >
> >>>> > >
> >>>> > > No, there just wasn't much to respond to.
> >>>> > >
> >>>> > > On Mon, Oct 12, 2015 at 8:55 AM, Georgi Guninski <
> >>>> guninski at guninski.com>
> >>>> > > wrote:
> >>>> > >
> >>>> > > > So assuming Snowden "borrowed" the slide from the NSA and he
> >>>> didn't get
> >>>> > > > owned, the slide is _REAL_.
> >>>> > > >
> >>>> > > > Having in mind Snowden likely have large pile of slides, if he got
> >>>> > > > owned, likely all/the majority of them would likely be fake.
> >>>> > > >
> >>>> > > > Is this plausible?
> >>>> > > >
> >>>> > > > And did you missed the us-natsec trolling about the eu appearing
> >>>> to
> >>>> > > > trust Snowden's slides (though sometimes they can't prove it)?
> >>>> > > >
> >>>> > > >
> >>>> > > > On Mon, Oct 12, 2015 at 08:22:37AM -0400, Michael Best wrote:
> >>>> > > > > No but as I and others have noted, he didn't look at all of the
> >>>> > materials
> >>>> > > > > he handed over to journalists and couldn't possibly be expected
> >>>> to
> >>>> > > > remember
> >>>> > > > > all the ones he did see well enough to possibly be able to ID
> >>>> this
> >>>> > one as
> >>>> > > > > altered or forged. He was only able to argue against the other
> >>>> > documents
> >>>> > > > > because he had never been in touch with the outlet releasing
> >>>> them,
> >>>> > > > contrary
> >>>> > > > > to their apparent belief.
> >>>> > > > >
> >>>> > > > > On Mon, Oct 12, 2015 at 8:19 AM, Georgi Guninski <
> >>>> > guninski at guninski.com>
> >>>> > > > > wrote:
> >>>> > > > >
> >>>> > > > > > On Mon, Oct 12, 2015 at 07:50:14AM -0400, Michael Best wrote:
> >>>> > > > > > > As I think I said in the other thread, less specific
> >>>> charges that
> >>>> > > > require
> >>>> > > > > > > more specific proof and almost never leveled before a trial
> >>>> is
> >>>> > set,
> >>>> > > > > > because
> >>>> > > > > > > it forces the issue to be tried in the court of public
> >>>> opinion,
> >>>> > > > where a
> >>>> > > > > > lot
> >>>> > > > > > > of information can't be released lest it spoil an
> >>>> investigation
> >>>> > or
> >>>> > > > > > > potential trial. There's also the fact that there'd be
> >>>> little to
> >>>> > > > gain at
> >>>> > > > > > > this point by alleging that the slides are fake since there
> >>>> > would be
> >>>> > > > few
> >>>> > > > > > > people to believe it,
> >>>> > > > > > >
> >>>> > > > > > > "NSA hasn't said it's fake" doesn't seem like a strong
> >>>> argument -
> >>>> > > > > > > especially for a non-NSA slide. And again - *Snowden
> >>>> himself* has
> >>>> > > > accused
> >>>> > > > > > > outlets of releasing slides attributed to him that *he says
> >>>> he
> >>>> > did
> >>>> > > > not
> >>>> > > > > > > provide*.
> >>>> > > > > > >
> >>>> > > > > > Likely the NSA would distribute fake slides just to discredit
> >>>> > Snowden.
> >>>> > > > > >
> >>>> > > > > > Does Snowden deny the authencity of this slide?
> >>>> > > > > >
> >>>> > > > > > This slide appeared in _too many_ news AFAICT to get
> >>>> unnoticed.
> >>>> > > > > >
> >>>> > > >
> >>>> >
> >>>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>
> >
> >
> > --
> > Twitter <https://twitter.com/tbiehn> | LinkedIn
> > <http://www.linkedin.com/in/travisbiehn> | GitHub
> > <http://github.com/tbiehn> | TravisBiehn.com <http://www.travisbiehn.com> |
> > Google Plus <https://plus.google.com/+TravisBiehn>
> >





From carimachet at gmail.com  Sun Oct 11 21:43:24 2015
From: carimachet at gmail.com (Cari Machet)
Date: Mon, 12 Oct 2015 07:43:24 +0300
Subject: How to minimize one's damage in case the usa kicks the bucket?
In-Reply-To: <CAOsGNSStTuCy6m+r9Lj40Du6e5_Ud4c5rO6fiFGc2MyMWaNzDA@mail.gmail.com>
References: <20151005085119.GA2489@sivokote.iziade.m$>
 <561AF3A2.5030206@riseup.net>
 <CAOsGNSStTuCy6m+r9Lj40Du6e5_Ud4c5rO6fiFGc2MyMWaNzDA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAGRDzQVCKcr_SQODUY=T2+D7LScPrYdLwoLi_A-7LbUr1r3S6A@mail.gmail.com>

Belief is cowardice

I dont believe in belief

Suggestion: go outside of what you have been told is the capacity of your
identity by the parasitic state and ask questions of how many ways you can
create shift every second of your life in a direct action and place ...
just asking the questions changes conciousness levels

To remain in willful disconnect from questioning self is the state
apparatus inside each
On Oct 12, 2015 4:08 AM, "Zenaan Harkness" <zen at freedbms.net> wrote:

> > On 10/05/2015 03:51 AM, Georgi Guninski wrote:
> >> The financial situation in the usa is quite grave.
> >>
> >> Assume very severe financial crisis hits the usa relatively soon causing
> >> hyperinflation there and possibly in other countries.
> >>
> >> I am interested:  How to minimize one's damage in this situation?
> >>
> >> Some suspicions: Banks/exchanges are known Ponzi schemes, so how much
> >> the banking system will remain intact is unclear to me.
> >>
> >> Some possibilities
> >> real estate outside usa
> >> gold (is gold certificate secure enough?)
> >> bitcoins (some people got burnt, security of bitcoins not clear to me)
> >> ???
> >>
> >> Please post political rants in other thread.
>
> On 10/11/15, Douglas Lucas <dal at riseup.net> wrote:
> > Reviving this thread. Where's the altruism in "how to minimize one's
> > damage"? Why's the model here for resisting economic oppression a
> > survivalist hiding in an encrypted bunker, rather than the people of
> > Burkina Faso using sticks and rocks (not cryptography) to force
> > oligarchs out of their country? In Mexico they were recently burning
> > polling stations, but we were discussing hoarding Bitcoin to ensure our
> > self-interest? Where's the idealism in such selfishness?
>
> Basically I agree, please feel free to make suggestions :)
>
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From shelley at misanthropia.org  Mon Oct 12 07:47:35 2015
From: shelley at misanthropia.org (Shelley)
Date: Mon, 12 Oct 2015 07:47:35 -0700
Subject: Hundreds of underhanded violations of computers and networks,
In-Reply-To: <561BC2FD.3080803@riseup.net>
References: <CANFTA0-DN1XRUNc=xhEw3X2r=6MsOn30f-uobhkq98zUJPSqkA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAJVRA1SZYodFH+ESF8zekqa+3Y9LjzWn3YHTwtnfCL8kbJK=Rw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CANFTA08UhvWyA8ssLH7cp8-HzkOyrsqdfNqG24oMeDOig+eeTA@mail.gmail.com>
 <20151012114534.GB2778@sivokote.iziade.m$>
 <E1Zlc7A-0000CQ-6f@elasmtp-masked.atl.sa.earthlink.net>
 <561BC2FD.3080803@riseup.net>
Message-ID: <20151012144719.0921768013D@frontend2.nyi.internal>

On October 12, 2015 7:31:31 AM Razer <Rayzer at riseup.net> wrote:

> The t.co link called by the long link text, which redirects TO the long
> link, runs this script:
>
> #
> function(){return!!navigator.geolocation},history:function(){return!(!n.history||!n.history.pushState)},webworker:function(){return!!n.Worker},autofocus:function(){return"autofocus"in
> #
>
> RR
>

Thanks for calling attention to that.

That's why it's never a good idea to click on shortened links.  I always 
use something like longurl.org/expand.

-S


>
> On 10/12/2015 05:23 AM, John Young wrote:
> > Prepare for cyberwar career: 163 7-day free books on hundreds
> > of underhanded violations of computers and networks,
> >
> > http://www. amazon.
> > 
> com/s/ref=dp_byline_sr_book_1?ie=UTF8&text=EC-Council&search-alias=books&field-author=EC-Council&sort=relevancerank…
>
>





From themikebest at gmail.com  Mon Oct 12 04:50:14 2015
From: themikebest at gmail.com (Michael Best)
Date: Mon, 12 Oct 2015 07:50:14 -0400
Subject: WHY make a fake GCHQ slide?
In-Reply-To: <20151012114534.GB2778@sivokote.iziade.m$>
References: <CANFTA0-DN1XRUNc=xhEw3X2r=6MsOn30f-uobhkq98zUJPSqkA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAJVRA1SZYodFH+ESF8zekqa+3Y9LjzWn3YHTwtnfCL8kbJK=Rw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CANFTA08UhvWyA8ssLH7cp8-HzkOyrsqdfNqG24oMeDOig+eeTA@mail.gmail.com>
 <20151012114534.GB2778@sivokote.iziade.m$>
Message-ID: <CANFTA0-H4=9ZBvhXO8yFeGs+WapYd2JaiYYioFacNS5u=djCNw@mail.gmail.com>

As I think I said in the other thread, less specific charges that require
more specific proof and almost never leveled before a trial is set, because
it forces the issue to be tried in the court of public opinion, where a lot
of information can't be released lest it spoil an investigation or
potential trial. There's also the fact that there'd be little to gain at
this point by alleging that the slides are fake since there would be few
people to believe it,

"NSA hasn't said it's fake" doesn't seem like a strong argument -
especially for a non-NSA slide. And again - *Snowden himself* has accused
outlets of releasing slides attributed to him that *he says he did not
provide*.

On Mon, Oct 12, 2015 at 7:45 AM, Georgi Guninski <guninski at guninski.com>
wrote:

> On Mon, Oct 12, 2015 at 07:24:00AM -0400, Michael Best wrote:
> > Can anyone poke a hole in my logic for any of the possibilities, or come
> up
>
> IMHO this is a potential hole:
>
> Assuming Snowden got the slide from the NSA, he didn't fake it and his
> slides weren't modified by others AFTER he got them, some of your
> options don't make any sense.
>
> I don't know if these are sound assumptions, but Snowden appears widely
> believed by non-us-natsec crowd (which call him a "traitor").
>
> As pointed out in another thread, the usa wants to torture Snowden for
> alleged crimes like "stealing classified stuff", NOT for distributing
> fakes.
>
> There appears to be quarrel between the usa and eu about surveillance:
>
>
> http://www.theregister.co.uk/2015/10/12/digi_commish_oettinger_admits_eu_should_have_done_more_in_reaction_to_nsa_spying/
> EU Digital Commish: Ja, we should have done more about NSA spying
>
> I wish you call the EU "fake believers".
>
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From Rayzer at riseup.net  Mon Oct 12 07:55:25 2015
From: Rayzer at riseup.net (Razer)
Date: Mon, 12 Oct 2015 07:55:25 -0700
Subject: WHY make a fake GCHQ slide?
In-Reply-To: <CANFTA08UhvWyA8ssLH7cp8-HzkOyrsqdfNqG24oMeDOig+eeTA@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CANFTA0-DN1XRUNc=xhEw3X2r=6MsOn30f-uobhkq98zUJPSqkA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAJVRA1SZYodFH+ESF8zekqa+3Y9LjzWn3YHTwtnfCL8kbJK=Rw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CANFTA08UhvWyA8ssLH7cp8-HzkOyrsqdfNqG24oMeDOig+eeTA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <561BC9DD.9020101@riseup.net>



On 10/12/2015 04:24 AM, Michael Best wrote:
> "For the lols" is one such possibility as coderman points out. That
> motive could be tacked onto most of the potential fakers, but it does
> also sound like something a small group of "anons" might do.
> Unfortunately that category is so wide (potentially everyone on Earth)
> and it's a suspicion based on a stereotype, so I'm not sure if or how
> to follow-up with it. 

You're describing what you may be doing too. Lulz using something
insignificant security wise (anyone in their right mind who goes to
Cryptome 'barefoot' should expect 'whatever') to create a shitstorm on a
list.

I've seen your 'style' of disruption before you know... it's quite
common on political lists.

RR



Lulzcat, to be stored for perpetuity by the NSA, with a very special
message for Michael Hayden about Michael Best, encrypted for my key only:

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From Rayzer at riseup.net  Mon Oct 12 08:07:46 2015
From: Rayzer at riseup.net (Razer)
Date: Mon, 12 Oct 2015 08:07:46 -0700
Subject: Why cryptome sold web logs to their paying customers?
In-Reply-To: <CANFTA09N1RxaE1e05T2U64-KmBQvAhD0h8bWeLZoDnHPOwkVtQ@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CANFTA09pppGsfA85-L_+-nOt5uK1Ov2G=tWf7MCYab9YrrsNoA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAJVRA1RDiSwYi=udi-ZYnc5f0TL32wGt4Lqmf1jxog42JJeBmQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <CANFTA09N1RxaE1e05T2U64-KmBQvAhD0h8bWeLZoDnHPOwkVtQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <561BCCC2.6080501@riseup.net>



On 10/11/2015 06:16 PM, Michael Best wrote:
> Only started aharing my archives online again when I decided to use
> archive.org <http://archive.org> and neocities. 

So, let me see if I understand this correctly (and I feel like I've
asked this before in another way).

What you claim to be doing is starting an archive of dox you 'found' in
the wild, (but no one seems to know exactly knows how they went wild)
from a specific site, Cryptome, without the site owner's permission, at IA?

I'm sorely tempted to send a note to IA about this and see what they
think about people propagating potentially purloined material on their site.

RR


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From Rayzer at riseup.net  Mon Oct 12 08:11:58 2015
From: Rayzer at riseup.net (Razer)
Date: Mon, 12 Oct 2015 08:11:58 -0700
Subject: Why cryptome sold web logs to their paying customers?
In-Reply-To: <CANFTA094Trr=dfGwPneTp1MzxLYCN_5oqfC=Jqo7KjuK+fazVQ@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CANFTA09pppGsfA85-L_+-nOt5uK1Ov2G=tWf7MCYab9YrrsNoA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAJVRA1RDiSwYi=udi-ZYnc5f0TL32wGt4Lqmf1jxog42JJeBmQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <CANFTA094Trr=dfGwPneTp1MzxLYCN_5oqfC=Jqo7KjuK+fazVQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <561BCDBE.6000403@riseup.net>


On 10/11/2015 07:27 PM, Michael Best wrote:
> Any chance you'll look for a new ISP, John?
>

And there you have it. Michale Best engaged in a vendetta for some
reason against JYA.

Sounds like a lovers quarrel.

RR

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From alfiej at fastmail.fm  Sun Oct 11 14:13:50 2015
From: alfiej at fastmail.fm (Alfie John)
Date: Mon, 12 Oct 2015 08:13:50 +1100
Subject: Why cryptome sold web logs to their paying customers?
In-Reply-To: <trinity-731b0262-b3be-4de0-8d9f-731ae2425bf0-1444583318602@3capp-mailcom-lxa16>
References: <trinity-731b0262-b3be-4de0-8d9f-731ae2425bf0-1444583318602@3capp-mailcom-lxa16>
Message-ID: <1444598030.829859.407317641.4ED309A5@webmail.messagingengine.com>

On Mon, Oct 12, 2015, at 04:08 AM, Dr. J Feinstein wrote:
> Resend–HTML email scrubbed
>
> Calling bullshit. Mirimirs right, this makes no sense. And JYA says
> netsol won't let him delete the logs but Netsol says logs are disabled
> by default[
> https://www.networksolutions.com/support/how-to-enable-download-the-web-logs/]
> and you have to turn them on.
>
> So how the fuckd this really happen?
>
> Mirimir <mirimir at riseup.net> Are you arguing that users could have
> found those logs?
>
> I almost can't imagine that. Logs are normally in /var/log/ somewhere,
> and I can't imagine making them searchable. And indeed, I can't
> imagine how Cryptome archives would have included anything from
> /var/log/, even after system restore from backups.
>
> <--SNIP-->
>
> > Should access logs be kept for that long? Absolutely not. From what
> > I> have read in the email exchange that was posted, the log files
> > were> included in a NetSol total restore. My guess is that
> > John/Cryptome did> not intentionally keep these files, and did not
> > realize these files were> included in the archive.
> But that's the thing. Logs should have been in /var/log/. And how
> would the "NetSol total restore" have changed that?

Not necessarily...

Logs in /var/log is where they should be by default, but if the box is
on a shared hosting account, then things are completely different. For
instance, Bluehost charges $3.95/month, which gets you a home directory
on a box shared with hundreds of other users. In your home directory,
you get something like (from memory, which was a long, long time ago):

  ~/
  ~/public_www/
  ~/public_www/html/
  ~/public_www/access_log
  ~/public_www/error_log

So as you can see, the user does have permissions to access logs, but
are kept in the user's _home_ directory. Now you can see why this could
have mistakenly been distributed:

  tar zcf cryptome-backup.tar.gz ~/

The backup would have also slurped in all the logs. There was no malice,
just an easy mistake that everyone here could have make given the same
circumstances.

Alfie

-- 
  Alfie John
  alfiej at fastmail.fm




From shelley at misanthropia.org  Mon Oct 12 08:14:26 2015
From: shelley at misanthropia.org (Shelley)
Date: Mon, 12 Oct 2015 08:14:26 -0700
Subject: WHY make a fake GCHQ slide?
In-Reply-To: <CAKtE3zcct+2OzEL7fECPdaneT_gegLRAVyUxTH1-AhsxTV7sXQ@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CANFTA0-DN1XRUNc=xhEw3X2r=6MsOn30f-uobhkq98zUJPSqkA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAJVRA1SZYodFH+ESF8zekqa+3Y9LjzWn3YHTwtnfCL8kbJK=Rw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CANFTA08UhvWyA8ssLH7cp8-HzkOyrsqdfNqG24oMeDOig+eeTA@mail.gmail.com>
 <20151012114534.GB2778@sivokote.iziade.m$>
 <CANFTA0-H4=9ZBvhXO8yFeGs+WapYd2JaiYYioFacNS5u=djCNw@mail.gmail.com>
 <20151012121921.GC2778@sivokote.iziade.m$>
 <CANFTA0_gGhL-cZ3TwKLR5KQWNz57-dTqAPST9pS2FnzrO-FL5g@mail.gmail.com>
 <20151012125507.GD2778@sivokote.iziade.m$>
 <CANFTA08-nvMeetibdVNAn0r_OfQMQNDgaxpZ0qX96FjdC93C2g@mail.gmail.com>
 <20151012131038.GE2778@sivokote.iziade.m$>
 <CANFTA0-rPOOjcNoPQvgxehD52pYK-DHK7eDzSJ=o=xtS-Uue5A@mail.gmail.com>
 <20151012134617.495AE6800ED@frontend2.nyi.internal>
 <CANFTA09kcmcC4pHKVP1rtLtO_UQa8kTMjaaP5Hx23mk=F2okiA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAKtE3zd+JhOSTP+HkZ_40KZKDuN5XZZxfB9PyE5fiG_gxQL6_w@mail.gmail.com>
 <CANFTA0_htCCC37FLkizmE2rP5egPzvit9WZWX8h6eOyS7Ftx5A@mail.gmail.com>
 <20151012144035.28DEB68013D@frontend2.nyi.internal>
 <CAKtE3zcct+2OzEL7fECPdaneT_gegLRAVyUxTH1-AhsxTV7sXQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <20151012151410.DA505680130@frontend2.nyi.internal>



On October 12, 2015 8:00:55 AM Travis Biehn <tbiehn at gmail.com> wrote:

> I'm not accusing Mike of misrepresenting his 'findings.' I think that's a
> clear misread on his part.
>
> -Travis

Really?

 > >> On Mon, Oct 12, 2015 at 10:02 AM, Travis Biehn <tbiehn at gmail.com> wrote:
> >>
> >> > Mike,
> >> > You haven't proven that they were fake. Being able to counterfeit a
> >> dollar
> >> > bill does not all dollar bills counterfeit make. It's been one giant
> >> navel
> >> > gazing exercise.

You're contradicting yourself.

What's frustrating is that I know you're not ignorant nor are you a troll 
(which can't be said for everyone inexplicably belaboring this issue.)

*IF* this slide ends up being a fake, you really don't think that is 
significant?  You don't think it's a worthwhile pursuit to investigate 
whether the press is using slides attributed to Snowden without properly 
vetting them, or if there is intentional disinfo and FUD going on?

>
> On Mon, Oct 12, 2015 at 10:40 AM, Shelley <shelley at misanthropia.org> wrote:
>
> > I don't recall Mike ever saying the words, "this slide is a fake."
> >
> > What is being put forth for discussion and review is the following:
> >
> > With the log files that were included in the Cryptome archive,
> >
> > *anyone* with access to those files could have made that slide,
> >
> > because the data in the log files are from the same time period referred
> > to in the slide.
> >
> > Why is this so hard to comprehend?  I feel like this list has branched off
> > into some alternate timeline where logic and critical thinking do not exist!
> >
> > -S
> >
> >
> > On October 12, 2015 7:21:16 AM Michael Best <themikebest at gmail.com> wrote:
> >
> > I never said I proved the slide is fake, Travis. In fact, I've said several
> >> times that I've all done is prove that it could be fake. I said it in the
> >> mailing list and in the original posts on my site.
> >>
> >> *Please* try to read what you're criticizing/arguing/responding to. I know
> >>
> >> it can be hard, or boring, or frustrating, but it's essential to a
> >> dialogue
> >> that you respond to what the other person/side/position said and not
> >> confabulate something (as is human nature) or worse yet, build a strawman.
> >>
> >> Forcing your targets to *ahem* 'go dark' by instilling paranoia is exactly
> >> > the opposite of what 'an IA / TLA' wants.
> >>
> >>
> >> So categorical, monolithic and single minded! One might even say "overly
> >> so" lol
> >>
> >> On Mon, Oct 12, 2015 at 10:02 AM, Travis Biehn <tbiehn at gmail.com> wrote:
> >>
> >> > Mike,
> >> > You haven't proven that they were fake. Being able to counterfeit a
> >> dollar
> >> > bill does not all dollar bills counterfeit make. It's been one giant
> >> navel
> >> > gazing exercise.
> >> >
> >> > These disclosures only serve to further confirm opsec procedures long
> >> > recommended and employed. This slide is an advertisement for Tor (which
> >> > some hold to be a government honeypot, I do not.)
> >> >
> >> > Forcing your targets to *ahem* 'go dark' by instilling paranoia is
> >> exactly
> >> > the opposite of what 'an IA / TLA' wants.
> >> >
> >> > -Travis
> >> >
> >> > On Mon, Oct 12, 2015 at 9:55 AM, Michael Best <themikebest at gmail.com>
> >> > wrote:
> >> >
> >> >> I think Snowden has become such a folk hero that some people may leap
> >> to
> >> >> defend what seems like an attack on him without taking as much time to
> >> look
> >> >> at the data/posts as they would otherwise.
> >> >>
> >> >> On Mon, Oct 12, 2015 at 9:46 AM, Shelley <shelley at misanthropia.org>
> >> >> wrote:
> >> >>
> >> >>> On October 12, 2015 6:20:46 AM Michael Best <themikebest at gmail.com>
> >> >>> wrote:
> >> >>>
> >> >>> I tried to list their motives under the GCHQ/UK motives, who would be
> >> >>>> more
> >> >>>> likely to fake the slide anyway and are the ones alleged of having
> >> >>>> leaked
> >> >>>> documents to the Independent on behalf of JTRIG, are a fairly likely
> >> >>>> candidate.
> >> >>>>
> >> >>>
> >> >>> Yes, you did list a number of possibilities.  It sometimes seems as
> >> >>> though the same few people do not read and/or comprehend responses
> >> before
> >> >>> replying to them.
> >> >>>
> >> >>> Faking a slide like this would be a good way to inspire paranoia
> >> >>>> and divide a community, no? It got Cryptome to post a notice on their
> >> >>>> site
> >> >>>> for a week or two, alerting people to the possibility that they'd
> >> been
> >> >>>> targeted by GCHQ by visiting Cryptome. Sounds like JTRIG-ish
> >> paranoia,
> >> >>>> no?
> >> >>>>
> >> >>>
> >> >>> Agreed.  It could be an effective way to deter visitors to Cryptome,
> >> >>> possibly to divert attention away from something posted there around
> >> the
> >> >>> time this all began.
> >> >>>
> >> >>> -S
> >> >>>
> >> >>>
> >> >>>
> >> >>>> On Mon, Oct 12, 2015 at 9:10 AM, Georgi Guninski <
> >> guninski at guninski.com
> >> >>>> >
> >> >>>> wrote:
> >> >>>>
> >> >>>> >
> >> >>>> >
> >> >>>>
> >> 
> https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Joint_Threat_Research_Intelligence_Group&oldid=670966374
> >> >>>> >
> >> >>>> > Joint Threat Research Intelligence Group
> >> >>>> >
> >> >>>> > In June 2015, NSA files published by Glenn Greenwald revealed new
> >> >>>> > details about JTRIG's work at covertly manipulating online
> >> >>>> > communities.[6]
> >> >>>> >
> >> >>>> >
> >> >>>> > On Mon, Oct 12, 2015 at 08:58:33AM -0400, Michael Best wrote:
> >> >>>> > > >
> >> >>>> > > > So assuming Snowden "borrowed" the slide from the NSA and he
> >> >>>> didn't get
> >> >>>> > >
> >> >>>> > > owned, the slide is _REAL_.
> >> >>>> > >
> >> >>>> > >
> >> >>>> > > I don't think I understand your mean, if we assuming it's real,
> >> it
> >> >>>> > follows
> >> >>>> > > that it's real? I think I walked into a language barrier.
> >> >>>> > >
> >> >>>> > >
> >> >>>> > > > Having in mind Snowden likely have large pile of slides, if he
> >> got
> >> >>>> > > > owned, likely all/the majority of them would likely be fake.
> >> >>>> > > > Is this plausible?
> >> >>>> > >
> >> >>>> > >
> >> >>>> > > Not necessarily, that's not how disinfo works a lot of the time.
> >> >>>> > >
> >> >>>> > > And did you missed the us-natsec trolling about the eu appearing
> >> to
> >> >>>> > > > trust Snowden's slides (though sometimes they can't prove it)?
> >> >>>> > >
> >> >>>> > >
> >> >>>> > > No, there just wasn't much to respond to.
> >> >>>> > >
> >> >>>> > > On Mon, Oct 12, 2015 at 8:55 AM, Georgi Guninski <
> >> >>>> guninski at guninski.com>
> >> >>>> > > wrote:
> >> >>>> > >
> >> >>>> > > > So assuming Snowden "borrowed" the slide from the NSA and he
> >> >>>> didn't get
> >> >>>> > > > owned, the slide is _REAL_.
> >> >>>> > > >
> >> >>>> > > > Having in mind Snowden likely have large pile of slides, if he
> >> got
> >> >>>> > > > owned, likely all/the majority of them would likely be fake.
> >> >>>> > > >
> >> >>>> > > > Is this plausible?
> >> >>>> > > >
> >> >>>> > > > And did you missed the us-natsec trolling about the eu
> >> appearing
> >> >>>> to
> >> >>>> > > > trust Snowden's slides (though sometimes they can't prove it)?
> >> >>>> > > >
> >> >>>> > > >
> >> >>>> > > > On Mon, Oct 12, 2015 at 08:22:37AM -0400, Michael Best wrote:
> >> >>>> > > > > No but as I and others have noted, he didn't look at all of
> >> the
> >> >>>> > materials
> >> >>>> > > > > he handed over to journalists and couldn't possibly be
> >> expected
> >> >>>> to
> >> >>>> > > > remember
> >> >>>> > > > > all the ones he did see well enough to possibly be able to ID
> >> >>>> this
> >> >>>> > one as
> >> >>>> > > > > altered or forged. He was only able to argue against the
> >> other
> >> >>>> > documents
> >> >>>> > > > > because he had never been in touch with the outlet releasing
> >> >>>> them,
> >> >>>> > > > contrary
> >> >>>> > > > > to their apparent belief.
> >> >>>> > > > >
> >> >>>> > > > > On Mon, Oct 12, 2015 at 8:19 AM, Georgi Guninski <
> >> >>>> > guninski at guninski.com>
> >> >>>> > > > > wrote:
> >> >>>> > > > >
> >> >>>> > > > > > On Mon, Oct 12, 2015 at 07:50:14AM -0400, Michael Best
> >> wrote:
> >> >>>> > > > > > > As I think I said in the other thread, less specific
> >> >>>> charges that
> >> >>>> > > > require
> >> >>>> > > > > > > more specific proof and almost never leveled before a
> >> trial
> >> >>>> is
> >> >>>> > set,
> >> >>>> > > > > > because
> >> >>>> > > > > > > it forces the issue to be tried in the court of public
> >> >>>> opinion,
> >> >>>> > > > where a
> >> >>>> > > > > > lot
> >> >>>> > > > > > > of information can't be released lest it spoil an
> >> >>>> investigation
> >> >>>> > or
> >> >>>> > > > > > > potential trial. There's also the fact that there'd be
> >> >>>> little to
> >> >>>> > > > gain at
> >> >>>> > > > > > > this point by alleging that the slides are fake since
> >> there
> >> >>>> > would be
> >> >>>> > > > few
> >> >>>> > > > > > > people to believe it,
> >> >>>> > > > > > >
> >> >>>> > > > > > > "NSA hasn't said it's fake" doesn't seem like a strong
> >> >>>> argument -
> >> >>>> > > > > > > especially for a non-NSA slide. And again - *Snowden
> >> >>>> himself* has
> >> >>>> > > > accused
> >> >>>> > > > > > > outlets of releasing slides attributed to him that *he
> >> says
> >> >>>> he
> >> >>>> > did
> >> >>>> > > > not
> >> >>>> > > > > > > provide*.
> >> >>>> > > > > > >
> >> >>>> > > > > > Likely the NSA would distribute fake slides just to
> >> discredit
> >> >>>> > Snowden.
> >> >>>> > > > > >
> >> >>>> > > > > > Does Snowden deny the authencity of this slide?
> >> >>>> > > > > >
> >> >>>> > > > > > This slide appeared in _too many_ news AFAICT to get
> >> >>>> unnoticed.
> >> >>>> > > > > >
> >> >>>> > > >
> >> >>>> >
> >> >>>>
> >> >>>
> >> >>>
> >> >>>
> >> >>
> >> >
> >> >
> >> > --
> >> > Twitter <https://twitter.com/tbiehn> | LinkedIn
> >> > <http://www.linkedin.com/in/travisbiehn> | GitHub
> >> > <http://github.com/tbiehn> | TravisBiehn.com <
> >> http://www.travisbiehn.com> |
> >> > Google Plus <https://plus.google.com/+TravisBiehn>
> >> >
> >>
> >
> >
> >
>
>
> --
> Twitter <https://twitter.com/tbiehn> | LinkedIn
> <http://www.linkedin.com/in/travisbiehn> | GitHub <http://github.com/tbiehn>
> | TravisBiehn.com <http://www.travisbiehn.com> | Google Plus
> <https://plus.google.com/+TravisBiehn>





From themikebest at gmail.com  Mon Oct 12 05:20:10 2015
From: themikebest at gmail.com (Michael Best)
Date: Mon, 12 Oct 2015 08:20:10 -0400
Subject: Why cryptome sold web logs to their paying customers?
In-Reply-To: <CANFTA094Trr=dfGwPneTp1MzxLYCN_5oqfC=Jqo7KjuK+fazVQ@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CANFTA09pppGsfA85-L_+-nOt5uK1Ov2G=tWf7MCYab9YrrsNoA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAJVRA1RDiSwYi=udi-ZYnc5f0TL32wGt4Lqmf1jxog42JJeBmQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <CANFTA094Trr=dfGwPneTp1MzxLYCN_5oqfC=Jqo7KjuK+fazVQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CANFTA0-NDWijRT_1s2oETu20-Dn9zOkYSpj4cmQ96pid8f6dgg@mail.gmail.com>

Just found
http://comptutor.me/2015/04/03/bulletproof-offshore-hosting-and-servers/

Has anyone on the list had any experience with any of these "Anonymous,
Bulletproof, and Offshore Hosting Providers"? Obviously 'bulletproof' is
marketing hype, but...

This is a list of Anonymous, Bulletproof, and Offshore Hosting Providers.
>
> Links marked with an asterisk are hosts that accept Bitcoin.
> The list is in no particular order.
>
> http://www.caratnetworks.com
>
> http://www.netelligent.ca
>
> http://www.neutraldata.com
>
> https://www.orangewebsite.com *
>
> https://www.1984hosting.com
>
> https://www.flokinet.is *
>
> https://ecodissident.net
>
> http://www.advania.com <http://www.advania.com/datacentres/>
>
> https://www.greenqloud.com <https://www.greenqloud.com/computeqloud/>
>
> http://www.hub.org
>
> http://www.ccihosting.com *
>
> https://www.panamaserver.com *
>
> http://www.highsecured.com
>
> http://www.offshoreracks.com *
>
> http://pro-managed.com
>
> http://vstoike.com
>
> http://www.2X4.ru <http://www.2x4.ru/>
>
> http://avk-com.ru
>
> http://www.tomtel.ru <http://www.tomtel.ru/enterprise/hosting.html>
>
> http://hosting.tel.ru <http://hosting.tel.ru/dedicated-server/>
>
> http://www.anders.ru
>
> http://www.hoster.ru
>
> http://www.datahouse.ru
>
> http://infiumhost.com <http://infiumhost.com/en/>
>
> http://vds64.com
>
> https://adman.com
>
> http://thost.ru
>
> https://bulletproof-web.ru
>
> http://agava.ru
>
> https://masterhost.ru
>
> http://tehnodom.com
>
> http://renter.ru <http://renter.ru/rent.html>
>
> http://abusehosting.ru
>
> http://www.nidahost.com
>
> http://www.hostkey.com *
>
> http://ispserver.com <http://ispserver.com/en/>
>
> https://selectel.com
>
> https://randservers.com <https://randservers.com/en/> *
>
> http://pw-service.com
>
> http://www.ultratechhost.com
>
> http://www.parkinhost.com
>
> http://privatelayer.com *
>
> https://incloudibly.net <https://incloudibly.net/en/> *
>
> http://en.datasource.ch
>
> https://www.nine.ch <https://www.nine.ch/en/>
>
> https://www.hosthink.net
>
> http://ukrdc.net <http://ukrdc.net/en/>
>
> http://unit-is.com <http://unit-is.com/en/>
>
> http://uniteddc.net.ua <http://uniteddc.net.ua/en>
>
> http://www.urdn.com.ua
>
> http://netassist.ua
>
> http://www.ukraine.com.ua
>
> http://rx-name.ua <http://rx-name.ua/server>
>
> http://www.server.ua <http://www.server.ua/dedicated>
>
> http://www.colocall.net <http://www.colocall.net/en/>
>
> https://ekvia.com
>
> https://vdsinside.com
>
> http://hosting.ua
>
> https://goodnet.com.ua <https://goodnet.com.ua/en/>
>
> http://www.besthosting.ua <http://www.besthosting.ua/en/>
>
> https://www.ukrnames.com <https://www.ukrnames.com/eng/>
>
> https://blazingfast.io
>
> http://tucha.ua
>
> http://netengi.com
>
> http://iprosrv.com
>
> http://deltahost.com
>
> https://itldc.com <https://itldc.com/en/>
>
> http://en.hostsolutions.ro
>
> https://www.voxility.com
>
> http://www.gemenii.ro
>
> http://www.smart-hosting.ro
>
> http://www.xservers.ro
>
> https://www.elvsoft.com
>
> http://seohosting.com.tr
>
> https://vit.com.tr
>
> http://hosting.turk.net
>
> http://www.kriweb.com <http://www.kriweb.com/servisler.html>
>
> http://natro.com
>
> http://www.sadecehosting.com
>
> https://www.hosteasy.eu
>
> https://en.alexhost.md *
>
> http://magicnet.md
>
> http://tophost.md/en/
>
> http://www.ecatel.info *
>
> http://www.cyberbunker.com *
>
> http://www.koddos.com *
>
> https://www.altushost.com
>
> http://cinipac.com <http://cinipac.com/en> *
>
> http://www.lolekhosted.net *
>
> http://www.kevlarhost.com *
>
> http://godmodehost.com
>
> http://www.webuzo.net
>
> http://www.prq.se <http://www.prq.se/?p=services&intl=1> *
>
> http://www.internetport.com
>
> http://www.portlane.com <http://www.portlane.com/en>
>
> http://www.glesys.com
>
> http://swedendedicated.com *
>
> https://www.bahnhof.net
>
> http://www.availo.se
>
> http://swedehost.net
>
> https://www.pin.se <https://www.pin.se/en/>
>
> https://www.yourserver.se
>
> http://www.sologigabit.com
>
> http://www.exmasters.com
>
> https://www.server.lu
>
> https://beneluxservers.com
>
> https://spaceweb.eu
>
> http://www.serverhosting.my
>
> http://shinjiru.com *
>
> http://2sync.co *
>
> http://asiapacific-it.com
>
> http://www.katzglobal.com *
>
> http://www.internetsolutions.hk
>
> http://asiapacifichosting.com
>
> http://tele-asia.net <http://tele-asia.net/eng/>
>
> http://www.sunnyvision.com
>
> http://www.eranet.com
>
> http://www.hktechnology.com *
>
> http://www.serverhk.org
>
> https://www.pachosting.hk
>
> http://www.kowloonhosting.com
>
> http://www.licosys.com
>
> http://www.sinohosting.net
>
> https://www.xenyohosting.com
>
> http://underhost.com
>
> https://webcare360.com
>
> http://ptclcloud.com.pk
>
> http://www.pndc.ir <http://www.pndc.ir/index.htm>
>
> http://ouriran.com <http://ouriran.com/dedicated_iran.cfm>
>
> https://www.r0ute.com *
>
> http://www.afranet.com <http://www.afranet.com/DataCenter/Index.aspx>
>
> http://www.parsonline.com
> <http://www.parsonline.com/old/fa/services/datacenter>
>
> http://www.datacenter.ir
>
> http://www.nashirnet.net
>
> http://www.synwebhost.org *
>
> https://www.anonymoushosting.in *
>
> http://www.securehost.com
>
> http://www.warez-host.com *
>
> http://wrzhost.com
>
> http://www.crservers.com *
>
> http://vpsgod.com
>
> https://lankapartnerhost.com
>
> https://ititch.com *
>
> https://www.vpsbg.eu <https://www.vpsbg.eu/en/> *
>
> http://libertyvps.net *
>
> http://www.icyevolution.com
>
> http://www.evoluso.com
>
> https://hostsailor.com *
>
> http://www.starrydns.net *
>
> http://www.dataplugs.com
>
> https://vinahost.vn <https://vinahost.vn/index.php?language=English>
>
> http://www.pavietnam.net <http://www.pavietnam.net/en/>
>
> http://www.finalhosting.cz
>
> http://www.continent8.com
>
> http://www.curacaowebhosting.com
>
> https://rockhoster.com
>
> http://www.hidemyhost.com *
>
> http://www.nsc.ba <http://www.nsc.ba/internet/hosting/>
>
> http://dis.telecom.kz <http://dis.telecom.kz/page/hosting>
>
> http://www.idhost.kz <http://www.idhost.kz/en/home/>
>
> http://space.kz
>
> http://borneo.kg
>
> https://grandhost.cc <https://grandhost.cc/en/>
>
> http://hosting.tongacable.net/home/
>
> http://online.tm/ru/Hosting
>
> https://www.thnic.co.th <https://www.thnic.co.th/en/thHost/>
>
> http://www.proen.co.th <http://www.proen.co.th/home?lang=en>
>
> http://www.galkahost.com
>
> https://www.xhostfire.com
>
> http://www.time4vps.eu
>
> Keep in mind that all of these hosts have different rules, are all over
> the globe with different laws, and are ideal for different things. Some
> don’t care about DMCA, some don’t care about bulk e-mail or spam, some host
> botnets (whether knowingly or unknowingly), some specialize in hosting
> gambling or porn, some let you sign up anonymously, some are just free
> speech hosts. They have different speeds, connectivity, prices, policies,
> services, etc. Do your homework and pick the right one for you.
>
> Iceland, Switzerland, Eastern Europe, and Russia currently seem to be the
> most popular options for offshore hosting at the moment. Parts of Asia like
> Hong Kong, South/Central America, and the Caribbean have always been
> popular offshore locations as well. Asian and South/Central American hosts
> are typically pretty safe options, but their connectivity and
> infrastructure is usually lacking which leads to slower speeds, higher
> latency, and higher prices. I predict the next popular offshore location
> will be the middle east and possibly parts of Africa. Their only downfall
> at the moment is high prices and limited connectivity. The Netherlands and
> Sweden used to be safe havens, but people are leaving those places due to
> recent crackdowns. These companies were found by doing a whois on known
> site’s domains and then doing a whois on the IP produced. Some sites are
> hiding their IP’s behind CloudFlare, but even then we can find them by
> plugging the domain intohttp://www.crimeflare.com/cfs.html
>

On Sun, Oct 11, 2015 at 10:27 PM, Michael Best <themikebest at gmail.com>
wrote:

> Any chance you'll look for a new ISP, John?
>
> On Sun, Oct 11, 2015 at 9:01 PM, coderman <coderman at gmail.com> wrote:
>
>
>> all of us are wondering what will finally be the straw too far for John...
>>
>
>
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From themikebest at gmail.com  Mon Oct 12 05:22:37 2015
From: themikebest at gmail.com (Michael Best)
Date: Mon, 12 Oct 2015 08:22:37 -0400
Subject: WHY make a fake GCHQ slide?
In-Reply-To: <20151012121921.GC2778@sivokote.iziade.m$>
References: <CANFTA0-DN1XRUNc=xhEw3X2r=6MsOn30f-uobhkq98zUJPSqkA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAJVRA1SZYodFH+ESF8zekqa+3Y9LjzWn3YHTwtnfCL8kbJK=Rw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CANFTA08UhvWyA8ssLH7cp8-HzkOyrsqdfNqG24oMeDOig+eeTA@mail.gmail.com>
 <20151012114534.GB2778@sivokote.iziade.m$>
 <CANFTA0-H4=9ZBvhXO8yFeGs+WapYd2JaiYYioFacNS5u=djCNw@mail.gmail.com>
 <20151012121921.GC2778@sivokote.iziade.m$>
Message-ID: <CANFTA0_gGhL-cZ3TwKLR5KQWNz57-dTqAPST9pS2FnzrO-FL5g@mail.gmail.com>

No but as I and others have noted, he didn't look at all of the materials
he handed over to journalists and couldn't possibly be expected to remember
all the ones he did see well enough to possibly be able to ID this one as
altered or forged. He was only able to argue against the other documents
because he had never been in touch with the outlet releasing them, contrary
to their apparent belief.

On Mon, Oct 12, 2015 at 8:19 AM, Georgi Guninski <guninski at guninski.com>
wrote:

> On Mon, Oct 12, 2015 at 07:50:14AM -0400, Michael Best wrote:
> > As I think I said in the other thread, less specific charges that require
> > more specific proof and almost never leveled before a trial is set,
> because
> > it forces the issue to be tried in the court of public opinion, where a
> lot
> > of information can't be released lest it spoil an investigation or
> > potential trial. There's also the fact that there'd be little to gain at
> > this point by alleging that the slides are fake since there would be few
> > people to believe it,
> >
> > "NSA hasn't said it's fake" doesn't seem like a strong argument -
> > especially for a non-NSA slide. And again - *Snowden himself* has accused
> > outlets of releasing slides attributed to him that *he says he did not
> > provide*.
> >
> Likely the NSA would distribute fake slides just to discredit Snowden.
>
> Does Snowden deny the authencity of this slide?
>
> This slide appeared in _too many_ news AFAICT to get unnoticed.
>
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From jya at pipeline.com  Mon Oct 12 05:23:39 2015
From: jya at pipeline.com (John Young)
Date: Mon, 12 Oct 2015 08:23:39 -0400
Subject: Prepare for cyberwar career: 163 7-day free books on hundreds 
 of underhanded violations of computers and networks, 
In-Reply-To: <20151012114534.GB2778@sivokote.iziade.m$>
References: <CANFTA0-DN1XRUNc=xhEw3X2r=6MsOn30f-uobhkq98zUJPSqkA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAJVRA1SZYodFH+ESF8zekqa+3Y9LjzWn3YHTwtnfCL8kbJK=Rw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CANFTA08UhvWyA8ssLH7cp8-HzkOyrsqdfNqG24oMeDOig+eeTA@mail.gmail.com>
 <20151012114534.GB2778@sivokote.iziade.m$>
Message-ID: <E1Zlc7A-0000CQ-6f@elasmtp-masked.atl.sa.earthlink.net>

Prepare for cyberwar career: 163 7-day free books on hundreds
of underhanded violations of computers and networks,

<http://t.co/omQxCrViVA>http://www.amazon.com/s/ref=dp_byline_sr_book_1?ie=UTF8&text=EC-Council&search-alias=books&field-author=EC-Council&sort=relevancerank 

  
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From Rayzer at riseup.net  Mon Oct 12 08:32:08 2015
From: Rayzer at riseup.net (Razer)
Date: Mon, 12 Oct 2015 08:32:08 -0700
Subject: WHY make a fake GCHQ slide?
In-Reply-To: <20151012134617.495AE6800ED@frontend2.nyi.internal>
References: <CANFTA0-DN1XRUNc=xhEw3X2r=6MsOn30f-uobhkq98zUJPSqkA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAJVRA1SZYodFH+ESF8zekqa+3Y9LjzWn3YHTwtnfCL8kbJK=Rw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CANFTA08UhvWyA8ssLH7cp8-HzkOyrsqdfNqG24oMeDOig+eeTA@mail.gmail.com>
 <20151012114534.GB2778@sivokote.iziade.m$>
 <CANFTA0-H4=9ZBvhXO8yFeGs+WapYd2JaiYYioFacNS5u=djCNw@mail.gmail.com>
 <20151012121921.GC2778@sivokote.iziade.m$>
 <CANFTA0_gGhL-cZ3TwKLR5KQWNz57-dTqAPST9pS2FnzrO-FL5g@mail.gmail.com>
 <20151012125507.GD2778@sivokote.iziade.m$>
 <CANFTA08-nvMeetibdVNAn0r_OfQMQNDgaxpZ0qX96FjdC93C2g@mail.gmail.com>
 <20151012131038.GE2778@sivokote.iziade.m$>
 <CANFTA0-rPOOjcNoPQvgxehD52pYK-DHK7eDzSJ=o=xtS-Uue5A@mail.gmail.com>
 <20151012134617.495AE6800ED@frontend2.nyi.internal>
Message-ID: <561BD278.6030302@riseup.net>



On 10/12/2015 06:46 AM, Shelley wrote:
> Agreed.  It could be an effective way to deter visitors to Cryptome,
> possibly to divert attention away from something posted there around
> the time this all began. 

+1.

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From Rayzer at riseup.net  Mon Oct 12 08:34:07 2015
From: Rayzer at riseup.net (Razer)
Date: Mon, 12 Oct 2015 08:34:07 -0700
Subject: WHY make a fake GCHQ slide?
In-Reply-To: <CAKtE3zdxXDe_=pMxDbNyyhbU8iA=t0Jqp_3bPaY6Df96pYytvg@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CANFTA0-DN1XRUNc=xhEw3X2r=6MsOn30f-uobhkq98zUJPSqkA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAJVRA1SZYodFH+ESF8zekqa+3Y9LjzWn3YHTwtnfCL8kbJK=Rw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CANFTA08UhvWyA8ssLH7cp8-HzkOyrsqdfNqG24oMeDOig+eeTA@mail.gmail.com>
 <20151012114534.GB2778@sivokote.iziade.m$>
 <CANFTA0-H4=9ZBvhXO8yFeGs+WapYd2JaiYYioFacNS5u=djCNw@mail.gmail.com>
 <20151012121921.GC2778@sivokote.iziade.m$>
 <CANFTA0_gGhL-cZ3TwKLR5KQWNz57-dTqAPST9pS2FnzrO-FL5g@mail.gmail.com>
 <20151012125507.GD2778@sivokote.iziade.m$>
 <CANFTA08-nvMeetibdVNAn0r_OfQMQNDgaxpZ0qX96FjdC93C2g@mail.gmail.com>
 <20151012131038.GE2778@sivokote.iziade.m$>
 <CANFTA0-rPOOjcNoPQvgxehD52pYK-DHK7eDzSJ=o=xtS-Uue5A@mail.gmail.com>
 <20151012134617.495AE6800ED@frontend2.nyi.internal>
 <CANFTA09kcmcC4pHKVP1rtLtO_UQa8kTMjaaP5Hx23mk=F2okiA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAKtE3zd+JhOSTP+HkZ_40KZKDuN5XZZxfB9PyE5fiG_gxQL6_w@mail.gmail.com>
 <CANFTA0_htCCC37FLkizmE2rP5egPzvit9WZWX8h6eOyS7Ftx5A@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAKtE3zdxXDe_=pMxDbNyyhbU8iA=t0Jqp_3bPaY6Df96pYytvg@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <561BD2EF.304@riseup.net>

I understand what's going on. His style of disruption is quite common on
political listservs

On 10/12/2015 07:32 AM, Travis Biehn wrote:
> Mike,
>
> Nice troll,
>
> My point is that specifically the value of this 'navel gazing' or
> hypothetical conversation is very limited. Since you have not proven
> it, what data do you ask us to look at? This entire conversation asks
> us to suspend our disbelief in order to discuss the possible
> motivations of an unnamed attacker who faked a GCHQ slide.
>
> From the beginning I've maintained it was asinine and pointless, at
> worst you're riling up the neophytes who don't understand what's going
> on. 


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From carimachet at gmail.com  Sun Oct 11 22:37:29 2015
From: carimachet at gmail.com (Cari Machet)
Date: Mon, 12 Oct 2015 08:37:29 +0300
Subject: [cryptome] Re: [cryptome]
In-Reply-To: <CANFTA0-9zYonRQQod7x0pRa60r0aBBHUvbbf+yn=_TMG3Dzt9A@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CANFTA0-9zYonRQQod7x0pRa60r0aBBHUvbbf+yn=_TMG3Dzt9A@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAGRDzQVfu4LhGvYrOU0Cwh7A3RSM5J2-ynthp6mj6Cw7pyfOmg@mail.gmail.com>

No i am talking about this list - this list is a community

You did not ask this list for help that i can see ... prove me wrong

You are saying jy did not admit ... you complain about it yet accept no
critique of said by you

Have a think about it go for a walk rest take a few days and get back to me
after
On Oct 11, 2015 7:38 PM, "Michael Best" <themikebest at gmail.com> wrote:

> *Cari Machet* carimachet at gmail.com
>>
>> <carimachet%40gmail.com?Subject=Re%3A%20%5Bcryptome%5D%20Re%3A%20%5Bcryptome%5D&In-Reply-To=%3CCAGRDzQWNCCe7AUOL%3D-YoFUdi5%2Bm2KPxsq30D3OJzgJjQUrMaCw%40mail.gmail.com%3E>*Sun
>> Oct 11 12:25:43 EDT 2015*
>> reveal was to protect the community (fr john) then why was that act >
>> protecting the community > avoided by mike
>
> Plus no ask to the list but said asked the list and if the point of the
>>
>
> First email asked for help, no reason the list was excluded from that even
> though I explicitly asked John for help verifying it. Then I asked open
> endedly on Twitter.
>
> Also, you seem to be confusing this list with the community of Cryptome's
> visitors. There's overlap, sure, but they are *not* the same.
>
> Plus, John deleted the early emails I made to the Cryptome list, which is
> more explicitly the mailing list that would be best identified as the
> community you're referring to.
>
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From Rayzer at riseup.net  Mon Oct 12 08:40:18 2015
From: Rayzer at riseup.net (Razer)
Date: Mon, 12 Oct 2015 08:40:18 -0700
Subject: why we need more cryptome mirrors, in all corners
In-Reply-To: <CANFTA09VZcKsXqDHQa1O2vyp9Xw5D8wF-4hqwZuhngp7cCmU7g@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAJVRA1QMqMQL8+At127bHNyX21jTwvdC1_O0shmisRtSE+Fo4g@mail.gmail.com>
 <561BC561.6020605@riseup.net>
 <CANFTA09VZcKsXqDHQa1O2vyp9Xw5D8wF-4hqwZuhngp7cCmU7g@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <561BD462.80408@riseup.net>

Troll ignores entire point.

On 10/12/2015 07:39 AM, Michael Best wrote:
> To be perfectly clear, archive.org/nationalsecurityarchive
> <http://archive.org/nationalsecurityarchive> is NOT the national
> security archive from GWU. It is wholly separate, and omitted the
> "internet" from National Security Internet Archive (NSIA) from the
> identifier in the URL because of length and because NSIA is too few
> letters. 
>
> The WWU NSArchive is great and has a lot of stuff mine doesn't, but
> there's plenty in NSIA you won't find in the GWU NSArchive, too.
>

> On Mon, Oct 12, 2015 at 10:36 AM, Razer <Rayzer at riseup.net
> <mailto:Rayzer at riseup.net>> wrote:
>
>     "Let me make this PERFECTLY CLEAR"
>
>     It's not a 'mirror'. So far as I can see, it's a dump. The
>     National Security Archive maintains a mirror @IA and you aren't
>     going to find any dox 'in the wild' or modified, or even SUSPECTED
>     of being modified dox on that reflector.
>
>
>     On 10/11/2015 03:45 PM, coderman wrote:
>
>>     for this, i am quite grateful to see the archive.org
>>     <http://archive.org> natsec section expanded with cryptome mirror!
>>
>


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From Rayzer at riseup.net  Mon Oct 12 08:49:00 2015
From: Rayzer at riseup.net (Razer)
Date: Mon, 12 Oct 2015 08:49:00 -0700
Subject: How to go about sharing (was: one of a dozen threads about
 Cryptome)
In-Reply-To: <CANFTA09UtqeQGrp6UJx6446DnEFLtpKF2s5OHKLjJHnF6jheVg@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CANFTA09UtqeQGrp6UJx6446DnEFLtpKF2s5OHKLjJHnF6jheVg@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <561BD66C.6030705@riseup.net>

DUDE READ THEIR TOS!

On 10/11/2015 07:11 PM, Michael Best wrote:
> and not worry about copyright


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From Rayzer at riseup.net  Mon Oct 12 08:53:35 2015
From: Rayzer at riseup.net (Razer)
Date: Mon, 12 Oct 2015 08:53:35 -0700
Subject: Why cryptome sold web logs to their paying customers?
In-Reply-To: <CANFTA0-vK9-EbsSsyyq0ferP6BCHUoB92H+K-wz=bf4ieobgOA@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CANFTA0-vK9-EbsSsyyq0ferP6BCHUoB92H+K-wz=bf4ieobgOA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <561BD77F.8040304@riseup.net>



On 10/12/2015 08:33 AM, Michael Best wrote:
> You mean the Cryptome logs? John mailed them to me. And many, many
> other people since 2013. According to him. (Not the many, many part.)
>  
>
>     *Razer* Rayzer at riseup.net 
>     <mailto:Rayzer%40riseup.net?Subject=Re%3A%20Why%20cryptome%20sold%20web%20logs%20to%20their%20paying%20customers%3F&In-Reply-To=%3C561BCCC2.6080501%40riseup.net%3E>/Mon
>     Oct 12 11:07:46 EDT 2015
>     /What you claim to be doing is starting an archive of dox you
>     'found' in
>     the wild, (but no one seems to know exactly knows how they went wild)
>     from a specific site, Cryptome, without the site owner's
>     permission, at IA?
>
>
> But if you wanna pull on that thread, someone could easily do the same
> to JYA since he's reposted many pieces of copyrighted material on his
> site, without reprint permission or proper copyright notice (which
> cuts off any fair use claim). GASP Is that proof of this vendetta of
> which speak?

Yeah, and you're ragging JYA about having to find a new ISP. I suggest
you find a new archive. I do not think the people at archive.org
intended their site to be a data dump for awstat logs.

RR

>
> Not the one John has against me where he's smeared me and accused me
> of faking disinfo, I mean the fake one I apparently have against him.
> (Though I do admit to being a little bit bitter since he made so many
> bogus accusations against me)


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From Rayzer at riseup.net  Mon Oct 12 08:55:59 2015
From: Rayzer at riseup.net (Razer)
Date: Mon, 12 Oct 2015 08:55:59 -0700
Subject: Hundreds of underhanded violations of computers and networks,
In-Reply-To: <6860ACB1-05D5-44F9-A7DC-0CA34F274251@mac.com>
References: <CANFTA0-DN1XRUNc=xhEw3X2r=6MsOn30f-uobhkq98zUJPSqkA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAJVRA1SZYodFH+ESF8zekqa+3Y9LjzWn3YHTwtnfCL8kbJK=Rw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CANFTA08UhvWyA8ssLH7cp8-HzkOyrsqdfNqG24oMeDOig+eeTA@mail.gmail.com>
 <20151012114534.GB2778@sivokote.iziade.m$>
 <E1Zlc7A-0000CQ-6f@elasmtp-masked.atl.sa.earthlink.net>
 <561BC2FD.3080803@riseup.net>
 <20151012144719.0921768013D@frontend2.nyi.internal>
 <6860ACB1-05D5-44F9-A7DC-0CA34F274251@mac.com>
Message-ID: <561BD80F.2090503@riseup.net>

+2

On 10/12/2015 08:39 AM, MARK GORE wrote:
> Mike Troll Best pisses on list, comes back for a smell, tags it again, returns to take  a smell 

Rinse Lather Repeat. Ego driven disruptor.

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From themikebest at gmail.com  Mon Oct 12 05:58:33 2015
From: themikebest at gmail.com (Michael Best)
Date: Mon, 12 Oct 2015 08:58:33 -0400
Subject: WHY make a fake GCHQ slide?
In-Reply-To: <20151012125507.GD2778@sivokote.iziade.m$>
References: <CANFTA0-DN1XRUNc=xhEw3X2r=6MsOn30f-uobhkq98zUJPSqkA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAJVRA1SZYodFH+ESF8zekqa+3Y9LjzWn3YHTwtnfCL8kbJK=Rw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CANFTA08UhvWyA8ssLH7cp8-HzkOyrsqdfNqG24oMeDOig+eeTA@mail.gmail.com>
 <20151012114534.GB2778@sivokote.iziade.m$>
 <CANFTA0-H4=9ZBvhXO8yFeGs+WapYd2JaiYYioFacNS5u=djCNw@mail.gmail.com>
 <20151012121921.GC2778@sivokote.iziade.m$>
 <CANFTA0_gGhL-cZ3TwKLR5KQWNz57-dTqAPST9pS2FnzrO-FL5g@mail.gmail.com>
 <20151012125507.GD2778@sivokote.iziade.m$>
Message-ID: <CANFTA08-nvMeetibdVNAn0r_OfQMQNDgaxpZ0qX96FjdC93C2g@mail.gmail.com>

>
> So assuming Snowden "borrowed" the slide from the NSA and he didn't get

owned, the slide is _REAL_.


I don't think I understand your mean, if we assuming it's real, it follows
that it's real? I think I walked into a language barrier.


> Having in mind Snowden likely have large pile of slides, if he got
> owned, likely all/the majority of them would likely be fake.
> Is this plausible?


Not necessarily, that's not how disinfo works a lot of the time.

And did you missed the us-natsec trolling about the eu appearing to
> trust Snowden's slides (though sometimes they can't prove it)?


No, there just wasn't much to respond to.

On Mon, Oct 12, 2015 at 8:55 AM, Georgi Guninski <guninski at guninski.com>
wrote:

> So assuming Snowden "borrowed" the slide from the NSA and he didn't get
> owned, the slide is _REAL_.
>
> Having in mind Snowden likely have large pile of slides, if he got
> owned, likely all/the majority of them would likely be fake.
>
> Is this plausible?
>
> And did you missed the us-natsec trolling about the eu appearing to
> trust Snowden's slides (though sometimes they can't prove it)?
>
>
> On Mon, Oct 12, 2015 at 08:22:37AM -0400, Michael Best wrote:
> > No but as I and others have noted, he didn't look at all of the materials
> > he handed over to journalists and couldn't possibly be expected to
> remember
> > all the ones he did see well enough to possibly be able to ID this one as
> > altered or forged. He was only able to argue against the other documents
> > because he had never been in touch with the outlet releasing them,
> contrary
> > to their apparent belief.
> >
> > On Mon, Oct 12, 2015 at 8:19 AM, Georgi Guninski <guninski at guninski.com>
> > wrote:
> >
> > > On Mon, Oct 12, 2015 at 07:50:14AM -0400, Michael Best wrote:
> > > > As I think I said in the other thread, less specific charges that
> require
> > > > more specific proof and almost never leveled before a trial is set,
> > > because
> > > > it forces the issue to be tried in the court of public opinion,
> where a
> > > lot
> > > > of information can't be released lest it spoil an investigation or
> > > > potential trial. There's also the fact that there'd be little to
> gain at
> > > > this point by alleging that the slides are fake since there would be
> few
> > > > people to believe it,
> > > >
> > > > "NSA hasn't said it's fake" doesn't seem like a strong argument -
> > > > especially for a non-NSA slide. And again - *Snowden himself* has
> accused
> > > > outlets of releasing slides attributed to him that *he says he did
> not
> > > > provide*.
> > > >
> > > Likely the NSA would distribute fake slides just to discredit Snowden.
> > >
> > > Does Snowden deny the authencity of this slide?
> > >
> > > This slide appeared in _too many_ news AFAICT to get unnoticed.
> > >
>
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From themikebest at gmail.com  Mon Oct 12 06:15:01 2015
From: themikebest at gmail.com (Michael Best)
Date: Mon, 12 Oct 2015 09:15:01 -0400
Subject: WHY make a fake GCHQ slide?
In-Reply-To: <20151012131038.GE2778@sivokote.iziade.m$>
References: <CANFTA0-DN1XRUNc=xhEw3X2r=6MsOn30f-uobhkq98zUJPSqkA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAJVRA1SZYodFH+ESF8zekqa+3Y9LjzWn3YHTwtnfCL8kbJK=Rw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CANFTA08UhvWyA8ssLH7cp8-HzkOyrsqdfNqG24oMeDOig+eeTA@mail.gmail.com>
 <20151012114534.GB2778@sivokote.iziade.m$>
 <CANFTA0-H4=9ZBvhXO8yFeGs+WapYd2JaiYYioFacNS5u=djCNw@mail.gmail.com>
 <20151012121921.GC2778@sivokote.iziade.m$>
 <CANFTA0_gGhL-cZ3TwKLR5KQWNz57-dTqAPST9pS2FnzrO-FL5g@mail.gmail.com>
 <20151012125507.GD2778@sivokote.iziade.m$>
 <CANFTA08-nvMeetibdVNAn0r_OfQMQNDgaxpZ0qX96FjdC93C2g@mail.gmail.com>
 <20151012131038.GE2778@sivokote.iziade.m$>
Message-ID: <CANFTA0-rPOOjcNoPQvgxehD52pYK-DHK7eDzSJ=o=xtS-Uue5A@mail.gmail.com>

I tried to list their motives under the GCHQ/UK motives, who would be more
likely to fake the slide anyway and are the ones alleged of having leaked
documents to the Independent on behalf of JTRIG, are a fairly likely
candidate. Faking a slide like this would be a good way to inspire paranoia
and divide a community, no? It got Cryptome to post a notice on their site
for a week or two, alerting people to the possibility that they'd been
targeted by GCHQ by visiting Cryptome. Sounds like JTRIG-ish paranoia, no?

On Mon, Oct 12, 2015 at 9:10 AM, Georgi Guninski <guninski at guninski.com>
wrote:

>
> https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Joint_Threat_Research_Intelligence_Group&oldid=670966374
>
> Joint Threat Research Intelligence Group
>
> In June 2015, NSA files published by Glenn Greenwald revealed new
> details about JTRIG's work at covertly manipulating online
> communities.[6]
>
>
> On Mon, Oct 12, 2015 at 08:58:33AM -0400, Michael Best wrote:
> > >
> > > So assuming Snowden "borrowed" the slide from the NSA and he didn't get
> >
> > owned, the slide is _REAL_.
> >
> >
> > I don't think I understand your mean, if we assuming it's real, it
> follows
> > that it's real? I think I walked into a language barrier.
> >
> >
> > > Having in mind Snowden likely have large pile of slides, if he got
> > > owned, likely all/the majority of them would likely be fake.
> > > Is this plausible?
> >
> >
> > Not necessarily, that's not how disinfo works a lot of the time.
> >
> > And did you missed the us-natsec trolling about the eu appearing to
> > > trust Snowden's slides (though sometimes they can't prove it)?
> >
> >
> > No, there just wasn't much to respond to.
> >
> > On Mon, Oct 12, 2015 at 8:55 AM, Georgi Guninski <guninski at guninski.com>
> > wrote:
> >
> > > So assuming Snowden "borrowed" the slide from the NSA and he didn't get
> > > owned, the slide is _REAL_.
> > >
> > > Having in mind Snowden likely have large pile of slides, if he got
> > > owned, likely all/the majority of them would likely be fake.
> > >
> > > Is this plausible?
> > >
> > > And did you missed the us-natsec trolling about the eu appearing to
> > > trust Snowden's slides (though sometimes they can't prove it)?
> > >
> > >
> > > On Mon, Oct 12, 2015 at 08:22:37AM -0400, Michael Best wrote:
> > > > No but as I and others have noted, he didn't look at all of the
> materials
> > > > he handed over to journalists and couldn't possibly be expected to
> > > remember
> > > > all the ones he did see well enough to possibly be able to ID this
> one as
> > > > altered or forged. He was only able to argue against the other
> documents
> > > > because he had never been in touch with the outlet releasing them,
> > > contrary
> > > > to their apparent belief.
> > > >
> > > > On Mon, Oct 12, 2015 at 8:19 AM, Georgi Guninski <
> guninski at guninski.com>
> > > > wrote:
> > > >
> > > > > On Mon, Oct 12, 2015 at 07:50:14AM -0400, Michael Best wrote:
> > > > > > As I think I said in the other thread, less specific charges that
> > > require
> > > > > > more specific proof and almost never leveled before a trial is
> set,
> > > > > because
> > > > > > it forces the issue to be tried in the court of public opinion,
> > > where a
> > > > > lot
> > > > > > of information can't be released lest it spoil an investigation
> or
> > > > > > potential trial. There's also the fact that there'd be little to
> > > gain at
> > > > > > this point by alleging that the slides are fake since there
> would be
> > > few
> > > > > > people to believe it,
> > > > > >
> > > > > > "NSA hasn't said it's fake" doesn't seem like a strong argument -
> > > > > > especially for a non-NSA slide. And again - *Snowden himself* has
> > > accused
> > > > > > outlets of releasing slides attributed to him that *he says he
> did
> > > not
> > > > > > provide*.
> > > > > >
> > > > > Likely the NSA would distribute fake slides just to discredit
> Snowden.
> > > > >
> > > > > Does Snowden deny the authencity of this slide?
> > > > >
> > > > > This slide appeared in _too many_ news AFAICT to get unnoticed.
> > > > >
> > >
>
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From Rayzer at riseup.net  Mon Oct 12 09:23:00 2015
From: Rayzer at riseup.net (Razer)
Date: Mon, 12 Oct 2015 09:23:00 -0700
Subject: [cryptome] Re: Why cryptome sold web logs to their paying
 customers?
In-Reply-To: <trinity-135ce961-ec2d-4bd9-8df8-772b864b2834-1444599213281@3capp-mailcom-lxa08>
References: <trinity-731b0262-b3be-4de0-8d9f-731ae2425bf0-1444583318602@3capp-mailcom-lxa16>
 <20151011180239.EA60FC00014@frontend1.nyi.internal>
 <CANFTA09yPPnctXkBcuvNORm2+0=7Y+fRU4c7rm0L4id7xU-Vog@mail.gmail.com>
 <CANFTA0-psjyujdasCnxhfQFnd5-UOr+LxD5MgRV2n+R-YiT2Lw@mail.gmail.com>
 <8C4170F3-B9A5-4EB6-A6DB-7BE6701DD560@littledystopia.net>
 <CANFTA0_ru=Fj0WJXqCF+dFDHCa_fLFo3PnsEqy3m=KDxQZFHpg@mail.gmail.com>
 <29FDC0FF-712A-4048-AA64-67845A7CDECA@littledystopia.net>
 <20151011204851.D5DBAC00016@frontend1.nyi.internal>
 <E1ZlNmH-0000VV-40@elasmtp-curtail.atl.sa.earthlink.net>
 <CANFTA0-jX-L8c-u+kusdY_D6YzDNwtRVXgv=pFoOamNSgXwVTQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <trinity-135ce961-ec2d-4bd9-8df8-772b864b2834-1444599213281@3capp-mailcom-lxa08>
Message-ID: <561BDE64.5010903@riseup.net>



On 10/11/2015 02:33 PM, Dr. J Feinstein wrote:
> I think the implication is that youre a JTRIG type 

Usable... Too involved in chasing the snipe to notice the hunters
benefiting from that chase.

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From Rayzer at riseup.net  Mon Oct 12 09:26:36 2015
From: Rayzer at riseup.net (Razer)
Date: Mon, 12 Oct 2015 09:26:36 -0700
Subject: [cryptome] Re: NatSecGeek
In-Reply-To: <CAJVRA1TM4j14KX1zDiiSpEkDaB2TWFttcrd+Fix+2p0pRUJbfw@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CANFTA0-qPf1VhateDGgbWRuxTrua4H7fqVXJVGsg+Upx-WwfGw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAJVRA1Tujm68F6cg_o_JjjHtSC9Wxd86iEGSSeCxYW2=8xkyBQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <CANFTA0-hj_v0ezi-1qvr8X3ELmCTpzyUyTnADe-2QKQO441vKA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAGRDzQV3ps1jFwA9H2ZDL4RnMeZR7cj44Fo+U34YESonVVs-xw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CANFTA09n99=-pqgt-VDf6V5BFOk7EWGdyktaiKvJpaC4JL98cw@mail.gmail.com>
 <20151010135231.GD2694@sivokote.iziade.m$>
 <CANFTA0_ar1V2csWrdKJGPote-n24cWvO9sfs7x+B_-jzkp8Qfw@mail.gmail.com>
 <20151010140904.GE2694@sivokote.iziade.m$>
 <CANFTA09QXePNmaqoWW-XMD_fFusAq65EMewzkMsYUjnZoSeJhA@mail.gmail.com>
 <20151010141819.GF2694@sivokote.iziade.m$>
 <CANFTA08+QbS0ri+UTfkhjSRgTZ-HJ-e76KEJbSdQU45bZBeCgQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAJVRA1TM4j14KX1zDiiSpEkDaB2TWFttcrd+Fix+2p0pRUJbfw@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <561BDF3C.4040308@riseup.net>



On 10/11/2015 03:37 PM, coderman wrote:
> On 10/10/15, Michael Best <themikebest at gmail.com> wrote:
>> Yep...
> Michael the first rule of cypherpunks is to admit nothing. especially
> use of social media ;)
>

His use of a sig with all his social networks is one of the reasons I
earlier said Best has some income-related motive, and that he's most
likely dealing in 'future rewards'. After all BB is a contributor to the
intercept and even that cheap ass street panhandler "Commander X" aka
'curbhugger chris' got a whole damn writeup in the New Yorker.

RR

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From Rayzer at riseup.net  Mon Oct 12 09:39:10 2015
From: Rayzer at riseup.net (Razer)
Date: Mon, 12 Oct 2015 09:39:10 -0700
Subject: How to go about sharing (was: one of a dozen threads about
 Cryptome)
In-Reply-To: <CANFTA0_Lw1vS4by2jE+yP7uhMuVw-pW2OM-whzew-w1T0_Q9Dw@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CANFTA0_Lw1vS4by2jE+yP7uhMuVw-pW2OM-whzew-w1T0_Q9Dw@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <561BE22E.9030204@riseup.net>



On 10/12/2015 09:11 AM, Michael Best wrote:
> You deliberately took that out of context and cut out relevant text.
> Troll. 
>
> What I meant was not having to deal with the copyright complaints
> myself, and you OH SO CONVENIENTLY left out the very next sentence
> " If it turns out there's a violation I missed, the item gets taken
> down - not the entire site or all the uploads. " Which referred to
> Cryptome getting taken down over one document (which ultimately was
> allowed to stay up anyway)
>
>     ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>     DUDE READ THEIR TOS! On 10/11/2015 07:11 PM, Michael Best wrote:
>     >/and not worry about copyright/
>


It read about the same with the rest of the text, and since this whole
thing is such an incredible waste of bandwidth, I cut to the chase. And
no, if you infringe copyright IA takes your WHOLE THING DOWN because
they don't want the have to go through it for more, and cancel your
account. Ofc, you could start another...

IA is continually under a lot of pressure about copyright material
appearing onsite, and I say you're a threat to a very valuable public
resource. You should read my recent comment in one of the dozen or so
threads you've generated, about being the bird dog in the snipe hunt and
you never look to see who the 'hunters' are, and you're ARROGANT about
it, and your whole discussion of JYA's logs is just one long
look-at-what-I've-done-bc-xxx-did-this troll.

RR
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From shelley at misanthropia.org  Mon Oct 12 09:41:32 2015
From: shelley at misanthropia.org (Shelley)
Date: Mon, 12 Oct 2015 09:41:32 -0700
Subject: [cryptome] Re: NatSecGeek
In-Reply-To: <561BDF3C.4040308@riseup.net>
References: <CANFTA0-qPf1VhateDGgbWRuxTrua4H7fqVXJVGsg+Upx-WwfGw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAJVRA1Tujm68F6cg_o_JjjHtSC9Wxd86iEGSSeCxYW2=8xkyBQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <CANFTA0-hj_v0ezi-1qvr8X3ELmCTpzyUyTnADe-2QKQO441vKA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAGRDzQV3ps1jFwA9H2ZDL4RnMeZR7cj44Fo+U34YESonVVs-xw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CANFTA09n99=-pqgt-VDf6V5BFOk7EWGdyktaiKvJpaC4JL98cw@mail.gmail.com>
 <20151010135231.GD2694@sivokote.iziade.m$>
 <CANFTA0_ar1V2csWrdKJGPote-n24cWvO9sfs7x+B_-jzkp8Qfw@mail.gmail.com>
 <20151010140904.GE2694@sivokote.iziade.m$>
 <CANFTA09QXePNmaqoWW-XMD_fFusAq65EMewzkMsYUjnZoSeJhA@mail.gmail.com>
 <20151010141819.GF2694@sivokote.iziade.m$>
 <CANFTA08+QbS0ri+UTfkhjSRgTZ-HJ-e76KEJbSdQU45bZBeCgQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAJVRA1TM4j14KX1zDiiSpEkDaB2TWFttcrd+Fix+2p0pRUJbfw@mail.gmail.com>
 <561BDF3C.4040308@riseup.net>
Message-ID: <20151012164116.34FFA680137@frontend2.nyi.internal>

On October 12, 2015 9:31:40 AM Razer <Rayzer at riseup.net> wrote:

>

> His use of a sig with all his social networks is one of the reasons I
> earlier said Best has some income-related motive, and that he's most
> likely dealing in 'future rewards'. After all BB is a contributor to the
> intercept and even that cheap ass street panhandler "Commander X" aka
> 'curbhugger chris' got a whole damn writeup in the New Yorker.
>
> RR
>

Razor, what has gotten into you?

The only social network sig block I've seen is this:

---
 Twitter <https://twitter.com/tbiehn> | LinkedIn
<http://www.linkedin.com/in/travisbiehn> | GitHub <http://github.com/tbiehn>
| TravisBiehn.com <http://www.travisbiehn.com> | Google Plus
<https://plus.google.com/+TravisBiehn>
--

There has been a lot of noise on the list so I could have missed it, but I 
don't recall seeing Mike post anything like that (whereas the above is 
posted in each of Travis's replies, and I don't see you calling him out for 
it.)  Georgi asked Mike if he was NatSecGeek, that's the only time I recall 
his Twatter being mentioned.

If you're going to attack someone, at least get the facts straight.

-S





From traceyw39qm at hotmail.com  Mon Oct 12 00:43:10 2015
From: traceyw39qm at hotmail.com (Rodney Waddell)
Date: Mon, 12 Oct 2015 09:43:10 +0200
Subject: No more erectile dysfunction!
Message-ID: <04726555951970.3E9F7692FD@4M5K>





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However, now there seems to be the light in the end of the tunnel. A group of scientists from the British National Health Association have announced that they finally found the drug that produces the maximum effect (which is, by the way, estimated to be almost 99. Do you want to get the answer for this endless riddle? Want to overcome ED and forget what this abbreviation means once and for all? Then visit our site right now!

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WO





From coderman at gmail.com  Mon Oct 12 09:52:58 2015
From: coderman at gmail.com (coderman)
Date: Mon, 12 Oct 2015 09:52:58 -0700
Subject: high stakes games :)
Message-ID: <CAJVRA1RJmNnGDt8q2Z1BuS4aSXw64-_+4JL_wdmfWwuwQ0LPwQ@mail.gmail.com>

"A perfect example of the perils faced by researchers was provided in
a separate talk at Virus Bulletin by Costin Raiu, director of
Kaspersky Lab’s Global Research and Analysis Team. Raiu revealed that
when he was involved in the analysis of Stuxnet a few years ago,
someone broke into his house and left a rubber cube with the message
“take a break” written on it."

---

http://www.securityweek.com/long-term-strategy-needed-when-analyzing-apts-researcher

Long-Term Strategy Needed When Analyzing APTs: Researcher
By Eduard Kovacs on October 07, 2015

Analyzing advanced persistent threats (APTs) is not just about
collecting pieces of information, and companies that focus on APTs
should accept the fact that they have become intelligence brokers.

In a presentation last week at the Virus Bulletin conference in
Prague, Juan Andres Guerrero-Saade, senior security researcher in
Kaspersky Lab’s Global Research and Analysis Team, detailed the ethics
and perils associated with APT research.

Cyberattacks sponsored by nation states are increasingly investigated
by both startups and well-established security companies. However, it
appears that many firms involved in researching APTs lack long-term
strategy and they’ve failed to consider the repercussions of their
work.

According to Guerrero-Saade, one of the main issues is that companies
and researchers have failed to understand that cyberespionage is a
part of classic espionage, and those analyzing such cyber operations
have failed to accept their role as intelligence brokers.

Intelligence agencies and private security firms involved in the
analysis of cyber espionage campaigns follow similar procedural
methodologies, but there are some noteworthy differences.

In the case of intelligence agencies, they receive a request, they
gather information, analyze it, and deliver it. But before delivering
it, the resulting report is taken through a strategic filtering
process that ensures the well-being of all involved parties.

On the other hand, threat intelligence teams don’t necessarily need a
delimiting request in order to begin analyzing a threat actor’s
activities -- an investigation can start from a decontextualized
sample or a vague request for incident response. Researchers collect
malware samples, indicators of compromise, and data on command and
control (C&C) infrastructure, but their analysis is oversimplified,
their strategy for release of the information is often deferred to PR
or sales departments. The resulting reports, which might not contain
any actionable intelligence, are often released to the public in an
effort to attract new customers and boost the company’s reputation,
but without taking into account the potential consequences,
Guerrero-Saade said.

While intelligence agencies and security researchers follow similar
procedural methodologies, there are major differences in the ethics
and especially the perils they face. The Kaspersky Lab expert has
pointed out that the activities of intelligence agencies are not
considered suspicious by other governmental institutions, the
employees of intelligence agencies enjoy legal protections, and their
work is shielded from political blowback.

In the case of threat intelligence teams, however, researchers don’t
benefit from any cover for their actions, they don’t enjoy any legal
protections, and the companies they work for can also suffer due to
their actions.

According to Guerrero-Saade, the list of perils faced by researchers
includes subtle pressure, patriotic enlistment, bribery, compromise
and blackmail, legal repercussions, threat to livelihood, threat to
viability of life in the actor’s area of influence, threat of force,
and even elimination. A perfect example of the perils faced by
researchers was provided in a separate talk at Virus Bulletin by
Costin Raiu, director of Kaspersky Lab’s Global Research and Analysis
Team. Raiu revealed that when he was involved in the analysis of
Stuxnet a few years ago, someone broke into his house and left a
rubber cube with the message “take a break” written on it.

In the case of companies, they can face political, financial and
regulatory repercussions, they can end up losing government contracts
and partnerships, and they can become the target of rumors and smear
campaigns if they don’t properly evaluate what they disclose and whom
they disclose to.

As for ethical concerns, the lack of malware diversification -- the
fact that the same malware is used against both extremists and less
“malicious” targets such as research institutions -- can cause
researchers to question whether or not they should detect the malware.
More precisely, if the malware is used against a legitimate
organization, then it should be detected to protect such entities. On
the other hand, if the malware is detected, it will also make it
easier for extremists to protect themselves against cyber spying
attempts.

Another ethical issue is related to the fact that the researcher’s
insight into the operation they are targeting is always superficial.
At first glance, it might appear that the targeted entity is
“innocent,” such as an academic or a journalist, but in reality they
could be a radical academic or a terrorism-facilitating journalist.

Guerrero-Saade told SecurityWeek in an interview that threat actors
can plant false evidence to throw investigators off track -- these are
known as “black flag” operations. One good example is the group known
as “Wild Neutron” or “Morpho,” whose malware contains strings in both
Russian and Romanian.

Guerrero-Saade believes that the best way for threat intelligence
teams to overcome the challenges is to accept their role as
intelligence brokers and put more emphasis on strategy. The expert
believes companies should hire a chief strategic officer or someone
who is in charge of making decisions related to who gets what
information, instead of leaving the task to PR and marketing
departments.

Companies should also focus on providing actionable intelligence. One
negative example named by the researcher during his presentation at
Virus Bulletin is a recent report from ThreatConnect and Defense Group
that focuses on linking the APT group known as “Naikon” to a unit of
the Chinese People’s Liberation Army. The problem, according to
Guerrero-Saade, is that the connection made by researchers in the
report focuses on the analysis of an alleged PLA officer’s personal
postings on social media and provides little actionable intelligence.
The Kaspersky researcher told SecurityWeek that this is equivalent to
“doxing” someone you don’t like, just like members of the Anonymous
hacktivist movement do when they get uncomfortable with another
member.

“The current threat intelligence market is in the midst of an identity
crisis. As companies transition from plain IT security to intelligence
production, the relevant methodology of intelligence brokerage must be
embraced in order to stand a chance against the supernatural market
tensions that are the product of meddling with the operations of
diverse intelligence agencies and enraging their respective
governments,” Guerrero-Saade said in a paper accompanying his
presentation at Virus Bulletin.

“The transition to intelligence brokerage proper is encouraged as a
means of survival for threat intelligence producers facing escalating
geopolitical tensions. By empowering the producers to strategically
control their offerings, these tensions are relieved or entirely
sidestepped and the market can flourish away from the limelight,” the
expert added.

The complete paper, titled "The ethics and perils of APT research: an
unexpected transition into intelligence brokerage," is available for
download from Kaspersky Lab.




From themikebest at gmail.com  Mon Oct 12 06:55:00 2015
From: themikebest at gmail.com (Michael Best)
Date: Mon, 12 Oct 2015 09:55:00 -0400
Subject: WHY make a fake GCHQ slide?
In-Reply-To: <20151012134617.495AE6800ED@frontend2.nyi.internal>
References: <CANFTA0-DN1XRUNc=xhEw3X2r=6MsOn30f-uobhkq98zUJPSqkA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAJVRA1SZYodFH+ESF8zekqa+3Y9LjzWn3YHTwtnfCL8kbJK=Rw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CANFTA08UhvWyA8ssLH7cp8-HzkOyrsqdfNqG24oMeDOig+eeTA@mail.gmail.com>
 <20151012114534.GB2778@sivokote.iziade.m$>
 <CANFTA0-H4=9ZBvhXO8yFeGs+WapYd2JaiYYioFacNS5u=djCNw@mail.gmail.com>
 <20151012121921.GC2778@sivokote.iziade.m$>
 <CANFTA0_gGhL-cZ3TwKLR5KQWNz57-dTqAPST9pS2FnzrO-FL5g@mail.gmail.com>
 <20151012125507.GD2778@sivokote.iziade.m$>
 <CANFTA08-nvMeetibdVNAn0r_OfQMQNDgaxpZ0qX96FjdC93C2g@mail.gmail.com>
 <20151012131038.GE2778@sivokote.iziade.m$>
 <CANFTA0-rPOOjcNoPQvgxehD52pYK-DHK7eDzSJ=o=xtS-Uue5A@mail.gmail.com>
 <20151012134617.495AE6800ED@frontend2.nyi.internal>
Message-ID: <CANFTA09kcmcC4pHKVP1rtLtO_UQa8kTMjaaP5Hx23mk=F2okiA@mail.gmail.com>

I think Snowden has become such a folk hero that some people may leap to
defend what seems like an attack on him without taking as much time to look
at the data/posts as they would otherwise.

On Mon, Oct 12, 2015 at 9:46 AM, Shelley <shelley at misanthropia.org> wrote:

> On October 12, 2015 6:20:46 AM Michael Best <themikebest at gmail.com> wrote:
>
> I tried to list their motives under the GCHQ/UK motives, who would be more
>> likely to fake the slide anyway and are the ones alleged of having leaked
>> documents to the Independent on behalf of JTRIG, are a fairly likely
>> candidate.
>>
>
> Yes, you did list a number of possibilities.  It sometimes seems as though
> the same few people do not read and/or comprehend responses before replying
> to them.
>
> Faking a slide like this would be a good way to inspire paranoia
>> and divide a community, no? It got Cryptome to post a notice on their site
>> for a week or two, alerting people to the possibility that they'd been
>> targeted by GCHQ by visiting Cryptome. Sounds like JTRIG-ish paranoia, no?
>>
>
> Agreed.  It could be an effective way to deter visitors to Cryptome,
> possibly to divert attention away from something posted there around the
> time this all began.
>
> -S
>
>
>
>> On Mon, Oct 12, 2015 at 9:10 AM, Georgi Guninski <guninski at guninski.com>
>> wrote:
>>
>> >
>> >
>> https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Joint_Threat_Research_Intelligence_Group&oldid=670966374
>> >
>> > Joint Threat Research Intelligence Group
>> >
>> > In June 2015, NSA files published by Glenn Greenwald revealed new
>> > details about JTRIG's work at covertly manipulating online
>> > communities.[6]
>> >
>> >
>> > On Mon, Oct 12, 2015 at 08:58:33AM -0400, Michael Best wrote:
>> > > >
>> > > > So assuming Snowden "borrowed" the slide from the NSA and he didn't
>> get
>> > >
>> > > owned, the slide is _REAL_.
>> > >
>> > >
>> > > I don't think I understand your mean, if we assuming it's real, it
>> > follows
>> > > that it's real? I think I walked into a language barrier.
>> > >
>> > >
>> > > > Having in mind Snowden likely have large pile of slides, if he got
>> > > > owned, likely all/the majority of them would likely be fake.
>> > > > Is this plausible?
>> > >
>> > >
>> > > Not necessarily, that's not how disinfo works a lot of the time.
>> > >
>> > > And did you missed the us-natsec trolling about the eu appearing to
>> > > > trust Snowden's slides (though sometimes they can't prove it)?
>> > >
>> > >
>> > > No, there just wasn't much to respond to.
>> > >
>> > > On Mon, Oct 12, 2015 at 8:55 AM, Georgi Guninski <
>> guninski at guninski.com>
>> > > wrote:
>> > >
>> > > > So assuming Snowden "borrowed" the slide from the NSA and he didn't
>> get
>> > > > owned, the slide is _REAL_.
>> > > >
>> > > > Having in mind Snowden likely have large pile of slides, if he got
>> > > > owned, likely all/the majority of them would likely be fake.
>> > > >
>> > > > Is this plausible?
>> > > >
>> > > > And did you missed the us-natsec trolling about the eu appearing to
>> > > > trust Snowden's slides (though sometimes they can't prove it)?
>> > > >
>> > > >
>> > > > On Mon, Oct 12, 2015 at 08:22:37AM -0400, Michael Best wrote:
>> > > > > No but as I and others have noted, he didn't look at all of the
>> > materials
>> > > > > he handed over to journalists and couldn't possibly be expected to
>> > > > remember
>> > > > > all the ones he did see well enough to possibly be able to ID this
>> > one as
>> > > > > altered or forged. He was only able to argue against the other
>> > documents
>> > > > > because he had never been in touch with the outlet releasing them,
>> > > > contrary
>> > > > > to their apparent belief.
>> > > > >
>> > > > > On Mon, Oct 12, 2015 at 8:19 AM, Georgi Guninski <
>> > guninski at guninski.com>
>> > > > > wrote:
>> > > > >
>> > > > > > On Mon, Oct 12, 2015 at 07:50:14AM -0400, Michael Best wrote:
>> > > > > > > As I think I said in the other thread, less specific charges
>> that
>> > > > require
>> > > > > > > more specific proof and almost never leveled before a trial is
>> > set,
>> > > > > > because
>> > > > > > > it forces the issue to be tried in the court of public
>> opinion,
>> > > > where a
>> > > > > > lot
>> > > > > > > of information can't be released lest it spoil an
>> investigation
>> > or
>> > > > > > > potential trial. There's also the fact that there'd be little
>> to
>> > > > gain at
>> > > > > > > this point by alleging that the slides are fake since there
>> > would be
>> > > > few
>> > > > > > > people to believe it,
>> > > > > > >
>> > > > > > > "NSA hasn't said it's fake" doesn't seem like a strong
>> argument -
>> > > > > > > especially for a non-NSA slide. And again - *Snowden himself*
>> has
>> > > > accused
>> > > > > > > outlets of releasing slides attributed to him that *he says he
>> > did
>> > > > not
>> > > > > > > provide*.
>> > > > > > >
>> > > > > > Likely the NSA would distribute fake slides just to discredit
>> > Snowden.
>> > > > > >
>> > > > > > Does Snowden deny the authencity of this slide?
>> > > > > >
>> > > > > > This slide appeared in _too many_ news AFAICT to get unnoticed.
>> > > > > >
>> > > >
>> >
>>
>
>
>
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From coderman at gmail.com  Mon Oct 12 09:57:37 2015
From: coderman at gmail.com (coderman)
Date: Mon, 12 Oct 2015 09:57:37 -0700
Subject: WHY make a fake GCHQ slide?
In-Reply-To: <CANFTA0-rPOOjcNoPQvgxehD52pYK-DHK7eDzSJ=o=xtS-Uue5A@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CANFTA0-DN1XRUNc=xhEw3X2r=6MsOn30f-uobhkq98zUJPSqkA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAJVRA1SZYodFH+ESF8zekqa+3Y9LjzWn3YHTwtnfCL8kbJK=Rw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CANFTA08UhvWyA8ssLH7cp8-HzkOyrsqdfNqG24oMeDOig+eeTA@mail.gmail.com>
 <20151012114534.GB2778@sivokote.iziade.m$>
 <CANFTA0-H4=9ZBvhXO8yFeGs+WapYd2JaiYYioFacNS5u=djCNw@mail.gmail.com>
 <20151012121921.GC2778@sivokote.iziade.m$>
 <CANFTA0_gGhL-cZ3TwKLR5KQWNz57-dTqAPST9pS2FnzrO-FL5g@mail.gmail.com>
 <20151012125507.GD2778@sivokote.iziade.m$>
 <CANFTA08-nvMeetibdVNAn0r_OfQMQNDgaxpZ0qX96FjdC93C2g@mail.gmail.com>
 <20151012131038.GE2778@sivokote.iziade.m$>
 <CANFTA0-rPOOjcNoPQvgxehD52pYK-DHK7eDzSJ=o=xtS-Uue5A@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAJVRA1TatD-cRFcob_JgWy0ysUkRHPhj5a_zR9d75RihkaVHnQ@mail.gmail.com>

On 10/12/15, Michael Best <themikebest at gmail.com> wrote:
> ... Sounds like JTRIG-ish paranoia, no?

that's what they want you to think!!

John Great is never getting those minutes back...

(~_~;)




From coderman at gmail.com  Mon Oct 12 09:58:39 2015
From: coderman at gmail.com (coderman)
Date: Mon, 12 Oct 2015 09:58:39 -0700
Subject: WHY make a fake GCHQ slide?
In-Reply-To: <CAJVRA1TatD-cRFcob_JgWy0ysUkRHPhj5a_zR9d75RihkaVHnQ@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CANFTA0-DN1XRUNc=xhEw3X2r=6MsOn30f-uobhkq98zUJPSqkA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAJVRA1SZYodFH+ESF8zekqa+3Y9LjzWn3YHTwtnfCL8kbJK=Rw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CANFTA08UhvWyA8ssLH7cp8-HzkOyrsqdfNqG24oMeDOig+eeTA@mail.gmail.com>
 <20151012114534.GB2778@sivokote.iziade.m$>
 <CANFTA0-H4=9ZBvhXO8yFeGs+WapYd2JaiYYioFacNS5u=djCNw@mail.gmail.com>
 <20151012121921.GC2778@sivokote.iziade.m$>
 <CANFTA0_gGhL-cZ3TwKLR5KQWNz57-dTqAPST9pS2FnzrO-FL5g@mail.gmail.com>
 <20151012125507.GD2778@sivokote.iziade.m$>
 <CANFTA08-nvMeetibdVNAn0r_OfQMQNDgaxpZ0qX96FjdC93C2g@mail.gmail.com>
 <20151012131038.GE2778@sivokote.iziade.m$>
 <CANFTA0-rPOOjcNoPQvgxehD52pYK-DHK7eDzSJ=o=xtS-Uue5A@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAJVRA1TatD-cRFcob_JgWy0ysUkRHPhj5a_zR9d75RihkaVHnQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAJVRA1TYj+x67mBwFpUegMzc9AvtrJ9jnYPS_Km6an4A1eY5uQ@mail.gmail.com>

On 10/12/15, coderman <coderman at gmail.com> wrote:
> ...
> John Great is never getting those minutes back...

apologies; "John Great Best, Esquire."




From themikebest at gmail.com  Mon Oct 12 07:11:20 2015
From: themikebest at gmail.com (Michael Best)
Date: Mon, 12 Oct 2015 10:11:20 -0400
Subject: WHY make a fake GCHQ slide?
In-Reply-To: <CAKtE3zd+JhOSTP+HkZ_40KZKDuN5XZZxfB9PyE5fiG_gxQL6_w@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CANFTA0-DN1XRUNc=xhEw3X2r=6MsOn30f-uobhkq98zUJPSqkA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAJVRA1SZYodFH+ESF8zekqa+3Y9LjzWn3YHTwtnfCL8kbJK=Rw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CANFTA08UhvWyA8ssLH7cp8-HzkOyrsqdfNqG24oMeDOig+eeTA@mail.gmail.com>
 <20151012114534.GB2778@sivokote.iziade.m$>
 <CANFTA0-H4=9ZBvhXO8yFeGs+WapYd2JaiYYioFacNS5u=djCNw@mail.gmail.com>
 <20151012121921.GC2778@sivokote.iziade.m$>
 <CANFTA0_gGhL-cZ3TwKLR5KQWNz57-dTqAPST9pS2FnzrO-FL5g@mail.gmail.com>
 <20151012125507.GD2778@sivokote.iziade.m$>
 <CANFTA08-nvMeetibdVNAn0r_OfQMQNDgaxpZ0qX96FjdC93C2g@mail.gmail.com>
 <20151012131038.GE2778@sivokote.iziade.m$>
 <CANFTA0-rPOOjcNoPQvgxehD52pYK-DHK7eDzSJ=o=xtS-Uue5A@mail.gmail.com>
 <20151012134617.495AE6800ED@frontend2.nyi.internal>
 <CANFTA09kcmcC4pHKVP1rtLtO_UQa8kTMjaaP5Hx23mk=F2okiA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAKtE3zd+JhOSTP+HkZ_40KZKDuN5XZZxfB9PyE5fiG_gxQL6_w@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CANFTA0_htCCC37FLkizmE2rP5egPzvit9WZWX8h6eOyS7Ftx5A@mail.gmail.com>

I never said I proved the slide is fake, Travis. In fact, I've said several
times that I've all done is prove that it could be fake. I said it in the
mailing list and in the original posts on my site.

*Please* try to read what you're criticizing/arguing/responding to. I know
it can be hard, or boring, or frustrating, but it's essential to a dialogue
that you respond to what the other person/side/position said and not
confabulate something (as is human nature) or worse yet, build a strawman.

Forcing your targets to *ahem* 'go dark' by instilling paranoia is exactly
> the opposite of what 'an IA / TLA' wants.


So categorical, monolithic and single minded! One might even say "overly
so" lol

On Mon, Oct 12, 2015 at 10:02 AM, Travis Biehn <tbiehn at gmail.com> wrote:

> Mike,
> You haven't proven that they were fake. Being able to counterfeit a dollar
> bill does not all dollar bills counterfeit make. It's been one giant navel
> gazing exercise.
>
> These disclosures only serve to further confirm opsec procedures long
> recommended and employed. This slide is an advertisement for Tor (which
> some hold to be a government honeypot, I do not.)
>
> Forcing your targets to *ahem* 'go dark' by instilling paranoia is exactly
> the opposite of what 'an IA / TLA' wants.
>
> -Travis
>
> On Mon, Oct 12, 2015 at 9:55 AM, Michael Best <themikebest at gmail.com>
> wrote:
>
>> I think Snowden has become such a folk hero that some people may leap to
>> defend what seems like an attack on him without taking as much time to look
>> at the data/posts as they would otherwise.
>>
>> On Mon, Oct 12, 2015 at 9:46 AM, Shelley <shelley at misanthropia.org>
>> wrote:
>>
>>> On October 12, 2015 6:20:46 AM Michael Best <themikebest at gmail.com>
>>> wrote:
>>>
>>> I tried to list their motives under the GCHQ/UK motives, who would be
>>>> more
>>>> likely to fake the slide anyway and are the ones alleged of having
>>>> leaked
>>>> documents to the Independent on behalf of JTRIG, are a fairly likely
>>>> candidate.
>>>>
>>>
>>> Yes, you did list a number of possibilities.  It sometimes seems as
>>> though the same few people do not read and/or comprehend responses before
>>> replying to them.
>>>
>>> Faking a slide like this would be a good way to inspire paranoia
>>>> and divide a community, no? It got Cryptome to post a notice on their
>>>> site
>>>> for a week or two, alerting people to the possibility that they'd been
>>>> targeted by GCHQ by visiting Cryptome. Sounds like JTRIG-ish paranoia,
>>>> no?
>>>>
>>>
>>> Agreed.  It could be an effective way to deter visitors to Cryptome,
>>> possibly to divert attention away from something posted there around the
>>> time this all began.
>>>
>>> -S
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>> On Mon, Oct 12, 2015 at 9:10 AM, Georgi Guninski <guninski at guninski.com
>>>> >
>>>> wrote:
>>>>
>>>> >
>>>> >
>>>> https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Joint_Threat_Research_Intelligence_Group&oldid=670966374
>>>> >
>>>> > Joint Threat Research Intelligence Group
>>>> >
>>>> > In June 2015, NSA files published by Glenn Greenwald revealed new
>>>> > details about JTRIG's work at covertly manipulating online
>>>> > communities.[6]
>>>> >
>>>> >
>>>> > On Mon, Oct 12, 2015 at 08:58:33AM -0400, Michael Best wrote:
>>>> > > >
>>>> > > > So assuming Snowden "borrowed" the slide from the NSA and he
>>>> didn't get
>>>> > >
>>>> > > owned, the slide is _REAL_.
>>>> > >
>>>> > >
>>>> > > I don't think I understand your mean, if we assuming it's real, it
>>>> > follows
>>>> > > that it's real? I think I walked into a language barrier.
>>>> > >
>>>> > >
>>>> > > > Having in mind Snowden likely have large pile of slides, if he got
>>>> > > > owned, likely all/the majority of them would likely be fake.
>>>> > > > Is this plausible?
>>>> > >
>>>> > >
>>>> > > Not necessarily, that's not how disinfo works a lot of the time.
>>>> > >
>>>> > > And did you missed the us-natsec trolling about the eu appearing to
>>>> > > > trust Snowden's slides (though sometimes they can't prove it)?
>>>> > >
>>>> > >
>>>> > > No, there just wasn't much to respond to.
>>>> > >
>>>> > > On Mon, Oct 12, 2015 at 8:55 AM, Georgi Guninski <
>>>> guninski at guninski.com>
>>>> > > wrote:
>>>> > >
>>>> > > > So assuming Snowden "borrowed" the slide from the NSA and he
>>>> didn't get
>>>> > > > owned, the slide is _REAL_.
>>>> > > >
>>>> > > > Having in mind Snowden likely have large pile of slides, if he got
>>>> > > > owned, likely all/the majority of them would likely be fake.
>>>> > > >
>>>> > > > Is this plausible?
>>>> > > >
>>>> > > > And did you missed the us-natsec trolling about the eu appearing
>>>> to
>>>> > > > trust Snowden's slides (though sometimes they can't prove it)?
>>>> > > >
>>>> > > >
>>>> > > > On Mon, Oct 12, 2015 at 08:22:37AM -0400, Michael Best wrote:
>>>> > > > > No but as I and others have noted, he didn't look at all of the
>>>> > materials
>>>> > > > > he handed over to journalists and couldn't possibly be expected
>>>> to
>>>> > > > remember
>>>> > > > > all the ones he did see well enough to possibly be able to ID
>>>> this
>>>> > one as
>>>> > > > > altered or forged. He was only able to argue against the other
>>>> > documents
>>>> > > > > because he had never been in touch with the outlet releasing
>>>> them,
>>>> > > > contrary
>>>> > > > > to their apparent belief.
>>>> > > > >
>>>> > > > > On Mon, Oct 12, 2015 at 8:19 AM, Georgi Guninski <
>>>> > guninski at guninski.com>
>>>> > > > > wrote:
>>>> > > > >
>>>> > > > > > On Mon, Oct 12, 2015 at 07:50:14AM -0400, Michael Best wrote:
>>>> > > > > > > As I think I said in the other thread, less specific
>>>> charges that
>>>> > > > require
>>>> > > > > > > more specific proof and almost never leveled before a trial
>>>> is
>>>> > set,
>>>> > > > > > because
>>>> > > > > > > it forces the issue to be tried in the court of public
>>>> opinion,
>>>> > > > where a
>>>> > > > > > lot
>>>> > > > > > > of information can't be released lest it spoil an
>>>> investigation
>>>> > or
>>>> > > > > > > potential trial. There's also the fact that there'd be
>>>> little to
>>>> > > > gain at
>>>> > > > > > > this point by alleging that the slides are fake since there
>>>> > would be
>>>> > > > few
>>>> > > > > > > people to believe it,
>>>> > > > > > >
>>>> > > > > > > "NSA hasn't said it's fake" doesn't seem like a strong
>>>> argument -
>>>> > > > > > > especially for a non-NSA slide. And again - *Snowden
>>>> himself* has
>>>> > > > accused
>>>> > > > > > > outlets of releasing slides attributed to him that *he says
>>>> he
>>>> > did
>>>> > > > not
>>>> > > > > > > provide*.
>>>> > > > > > >
>>>> > > > > > Likely the NSA would distribute fake slides just to discredit
>>>> > Snowden.
>>>> > > > > >
>>>> > > > > > Does Snowden deny the authencity of this slide?
>>>> > > > > >
>>>> > > > > > This slide appeared in _too many_ news AFAICT to get
>>>> unnoticed.
>>>> > > > > >
>>>> > > >
>>>> >
>>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>
>
>
> --
> Twitter <https://twitter.com/tbiehn> | LinkedIn
> <http://www.linkedin.com/in/travisbiehn> | GitHub
> <http://github.com/tbiehn> | TravisBiehn.com <http://www.travisbiehn.com> |
> Google Plus <https://plus.google.com/+TravisBiehn>
>
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From themikebest at gmail.com  Mon Oct 12 07:13:59 2015
From: themikebest at gmail.com (Michael Best)
Date: Mon, 12 Oct 2015 10:13:59 -0400
Subject: [cryptome] Re: [cryptome]
In-Reply-To: <CAGRDzQVmWV+vcUQiroQymXHxzm60jFbg9JDWqFpppQyv2dRi_w@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CANFTA0-9zYonRQQod7x0pRa60r0aBBHUvbbf+yn=_TMG3Dzt9A@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAGRDzQVfu4LhGvYrOU0Cwh7A3RSM5J2-ynthp6mj6Cw7pyfOmg@mail.gmail.com>
 <CANFTA09UC2oWcg89550b_WL5XC2fEX4O+XN=mWaoWhtzK_9Pxg@mail.gmail.com>
 <20151012130825.21AB668022A@frontend2.nyi.internal>
 <CAGRDzQVmWV+vcUQiroQymXHxzm60jFbg9JDWqFpppQyv2dRi_w@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CANFTA0_thQPZiz_eO8U_JgX57gVTTPASEZmg4S_PNqH7E1YF9w@mail.gmail.com>

>
> That you refuse to have self critique proves point of an irresponsible
> mindset toward the community


The Community = This list. Does not include Twitter/Twatter/The Internet
for some reason. Also does not include the first email made to this list on
the subject. For some other reason.

On Mon, Oct 12, 2015 at 10:08 AM, Cari Machet <carimachet at gmail.com> wrote:

> That is complete bollocks i wrote over and over about johns bullshit...
> acknowledging it
>
> That you refuse to have self critique proves point of an irresponsible
> mindset toward the community
>
> I am not alone here others stated the same i am just following what you
> pointed to as big proof you made an ask to the list... which i do not see
> at all
>
> If ypu acknowledge the issue maybe your ego will get out of the way and
> you can shift behavior if you dont even acknowledge the behavior you will
> be on repeat cycle - not acceptable
>
> Shelly brain hurt? Not surprising
> On Oct 12, 2015 4:12 PM, "Shelley" <shelley at misanthropia.org> wrote:
>
>> On October 12, 2015 4:09:39 AM Michael Best <themikebest at gmail.com>
>> wrote:
>>
>> This is weird, right? I feel like I'm in Zoolander, "taking crazy pills" I
>>> didn't ask the list the right way but JYA lying/accusing gets nothing?
>>>
>>
>> Resistance is futile!  It's far better to just walk away from an argument
>> with Cari than to feel like you're losing your sanity.  You'll never "win"
>> or get your point across clearly, no matter how many times you repeat it.
>> Her lack of punctuation and logic hurts my brain, please make it stop!
>>
>> -S
>>
>>
>>
>>> On Mon, Oct 12, 2015 at 1:37 AM, Cari Machet <carimachet at gmail.com>
>>> wrote:
>>>
>>> > No i am talking about this list - this list is a community
>>> >
>>> > You did not ask this list for help that i can see ... prove me wrong
>>> >
>>> > You are saying jy did not admit ... you complain about it yet accept no
>>> > critique of said by you
>>> >
>>> > Have a think about it go for a walk rest take a few days and get back
>>> to
>>> > me after
>>> > On Oct 11, 2015 7:38 PM, "Michael Best" <themikebest at gmail.com> wrote:
>>> >
>>> >> *Cari Machet* carimachet at gmail.com
>>> >>>
>>> >>> <carimachet%
>>> 40gmail.com?Subject=Re%3A%20%5Bcryptome%5D%20Re%3A%20%5Bcryptome%5D&In-Reply-To=%3CCAGRDzQWNCCe7AUOL%3D-YoFUdi5%2Bm2KPxsq30D3OJzgJjQUrMaCw%40mail.gmail.com%3E
>>> >*Sun
>>> >>> Oct 11 12:25:43 EDT 2015*
>>> >>> reveal was to protect the community (fr john) then why was that act >
>>> >>> protecting the community > avoided by mike
>>> >>
>>> >> Plus no ask to the list but said asked the list and if the point of
>>> the
>>> >>>
>>> >>
>>> >> First email asked for help, no reason the list was excluded from that
>>> >> even though I explicitly asked John for help verifying it. Then I
>>> asked
>>> >> open endedly on Twitter.
>>> >>
>>> >> Also, you seem to be confusing this list with the community of
>>> Cryptome's
>>> >> visitors. There's overlap, sure, but they are *not* the same.
>>> >>
>>> >> Plus, John deleted the early emails I made to the Cryptome list,
>>> which is
>>> >> more explicitly the mailing list that would be best identified as the
>>> >> community you're referring to.
>>> >>
>>> >
>>>
>>
>>
>>
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From Rayzer at riseup.net  Mon Oct 12 10:14:05 2015
From: Rayzer at riseup.net (Razer)
Date: Mon, 12 Oct 2015 10:14:05 -0700
Subject: How to go about sharing (was: one of a dozen threads about
 Cryptome)
In-Reply-To: <CANFTA09E54jkvFcdytyv--ut18=OxPwYaXh_oh5BUodfTBw2xg@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CANFTA0_Lw1vS4by2jE+yP7uhMuVw-pW2OM-whzew-w1T0_Q9Dw@mail.gmail.com>
 <561BE22E.9030204@riseup.net>
 <CANFTA09E54jkvFcdytyv--ut18=OxPwYaXh_oh5BUodfTBw2xg@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <561BEA5D.5050002@riseup.net>



On 10/12/2015 09:45 AM, Michael Best wrote:
> IA takes down specific items, not entire accounts,

You're WRONG buddy.

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From themikebest at gmail.com  Mon Oct 12 07:15:21 2015
From: themikebest at gmail.com (Michael Best)
Date: Mon, 12 Oct 2015 10:15:21 -0400
Subject: [cryptome] Re: [cryptome]
In-Reply-To: <CAGRDzQVmWV+vcUQiroQymXHxzm60jFbg9JDWqFpppQyv2dRi_w@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CANFTA0-9zYonRQQod7x0pRa60r0aBBHUvbbf+yn=_TMG3Dzt9A@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAGRDzQVfu4LhGvYrOU0Cwh7A3RSM5J2-ynthp6mj6Cw7pyfOmg@mail.gmail.com>
 <CANFTA09UC2oWcg89550b_WL5XC2fEX4O+XN=mWaoWhtzK_9Pxg@mail.gmail.com>
 <20151012130825.21AB668022A@frontend2.nyi.internal>
 <CAGRDzQVmWV+vcUQiroQymXHxzm60jFbg9JDWqFpppQyv2dRi_w@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CANFTA0-DDDHA+Usvyqx+mYxp4J7OYrejWm3b5+H6qAdZPVKh+g@mail.gmail.com>

>
> That you refuse to have self critique proves point of an irresponsible
> mindset toward the community


John's not notifying Cryptome's users/visitors through the website? NOT an
irresponsible mindset towards the community. For some reason. Ditto his
deleting the first posts to the Cryptome mailing list raising the issue.
Not irresponsible or driven by ego. At. All.

On Mon, Oct 12, 2015 at 10:08 AM, Cari Machet <carimachet at gmail.com> wrote:

> That is complete bollocks i wrote over and over about johns bullshit...
> acknowledging it
>
> That you refuse to have self critique proves point of an irresponsible
> mindset toward the community
>
> I am not alone here others stated the same i am just following what you
> pointed to as big proof you made an ask to the list... which i do not see
> at all
>
> If ypu acknowledge the issue maybe your ego will get out of the way and
> you can shift behavior if you dont even acknowledge the behavior you will
> be on repeat cycle - not acceptable
>
> Shelly brain hurt? Not surprising
> On Oct 12, 2015 4:12 PM, "Shelley" <shelley at misanthropia.org> wrote:
>
>> On October 12, 2015 4:09:39 AM Michael Best <themikebest at gmail.com>
>> wrote:
>>
>> This is weird, right? I feel like I'm in Zoolander, "taking crazy pills" I
>>> didn't ask the list the right way but JYA lying/accusing gets nothing?
>>>
>>
>> Resistance is futile!  It's far better to just walk away from an argument
>> with Cari than to feel like you're losing your sanity.  You'll never "win"
>> or get your point across clearly, no matter how many times you repeat it.
>> Her lack of punctuation and logic hurts my brain, please make it stop!
>>
>> -S
>>
>>
>>
>>> On Mon, Oct 12, 2015 at 1:37 AM, Cari Machet <carimachet at gmail.com>
>>> wrote:
>>>
>>> > No i am talking about this list - this list is a community
>>> >
>>> > You did not ask this list for help that i can see ... prove me wrong
>>> >
>>> > You are saying jy did not admit ... you complain about it yet accept no
>>> > critique of said by you
>>> >
>>> > Have a think about it go for a walk rest take a few days and get back
>>> to
>>> > me after
>>> > On Oct 11, 2015 7:38 PM, "Michael Best" <themikebest at gmail.com> wrote:
>>> >
>>> >> *Cari Machet* carimachet at gmail.com
>>> >>>
>>> >>> <carimachet%
>>> 40gmail.com?Subject=Re%3A%20%5Bcryptome%5D%20Re%3A%20%5Bcryptome%5D&In-Reply-To=%3CCAGRDzQWNCCe7AUOL%3D-YoFUdi5%2Bm2KPxsq30D3OJzgJjQUrMaCw%40mail.gmail.com%3E
>>> >*Sun
>>> >>> Oct 11 12:25:43 EDT 2015*
>>> >>> reveal was to protect the community (fr john) then why was that act >
>>> >>> protecting the community > avoided by mike
>>> >>
>>> >> Plus no ask to the list but said asked the list and if the point of
>>> the
>>> >>>
>>> >>
>>> >> First email asked for help, no reason the list was excluded from that
>>> >> even though I explicitly asked John for help verifying it. Then I
>>> asked
>>> >> open endedly on Twitter.
>>> >>
>>> >> Also, you seem to be confusing this list with the community of
>>> Cryptome's
>>> >> visitors. There's overlap, sure, but they are *not* the same.
>>> >>
>>> >> Plus, John deleted the early emails I made to the Cryptome list,
>>> which is
>>> >> more explicitly the mailing list that would be best identified as the
>>> >> community you're referring to.
>>> >>
>>> >
>>>
>>
>>
>>
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From Rayzer at riseup.net  Mon Oct 12 10:20:32 2015
From: Rayzer at riseup.net (Razer)
Date: Mon, 12 Oct 2015 10:20:32 -0700
Subject: [cryptome] Re: NatSecGeek
In-Reply-To: <20151012164116.34FFA680137@frontend2.nyi.internal>
References: <CANFTA0-qPf1VhateDGgbWRuxTrua4H7fqVXJVGsg+Upx-WwfGw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAJVRA1Tujm68F6cg_o_JjjHtSC9Wxd86iEGSSeCxYW2=8xkyBQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <CANFTA0-hj_v0ezi-1qvr8X3ELmCTpzyUyTnADe-2QKQO441vKA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAGRDzQV3ps1jFwA9H2ZDL4RnMeZR7cj44Fo+U34YESonVVs-xw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CANFTA09n99=-pqgt-VDf6V5BFOk7EWGdyktaiKvJpaC4JL98cw@mail.gmail.com>
 <20151010135231.GD2694@sivokote.iziade.m$>
 <CANFTA0_ar1V2csWrdKJGPote-n24cWvO9sfs7x+B_-jzkp8Qfw@mail.gmail.com>
 <20151010140904.GE2694@sivokote.iziade.m$>
 <CANFTA09QXePNmaqoWW-XMD_fFusAq65EMewzkMsYUjnZoSeJhA@mail.gmail.com>
 <20151010141819.GF2694@sivokote.iziade.m$>
 <CANFTA08+QbS0ri+UTfkhjSRgTZ-HJ-e76KEJbSdQU45bZBeCgQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAJVRA1TM4j14KX1zDiiSpEkDaB2TWFttcrd+Fix+2p0pRUJbfw@mail.gmail.com>
 <561BDF3C.4040308@riseup.net>
 <20151012164116.34FFA680137@frontend2.nyi.internal>
Message-ID: <561BEBE0.9000604@riseup.net>



On 10/12/2015 09:41 AM, Shelley wrote:

> Razor, what has gotten into you?
>
> The only social network sig block I've seen is this:
>
> ---
> Twitter <https://twitter.com/tbiehn> | LinkedIn
> <http://www.linkedin.com/in/travisbiehn> | GitHub
> <http://github.com/tbiehn>
> | TravisBiehn.com <http://www.travisbiehn.com> | Google Plus
> <https://plus.google.com/+TravisBiehn>
> -- 
>
> There has been a lot of noise on the list so I could have missed it,
> but I don't recall seeing Mike post anything like that (whereas the
> above is posted in each of Travis's replies, and I don't see you
> calling him out for it.)  Georgi asked Mike if he was NatSecGeek,
> that's the only time I recall his Twatter being mentioned.
>
> If you're going to attack someone, at least get the facts straight.
>
> -S 





> On October 12, 2015 9:31:40 AM Razer <Rayzer at riseup.net> wrote:
>
>> His use of a sig with all his social networks is one of the reasons I
>> earlier said Best has some income-related motive, and that he's most
>> likely dealing in 'future rewards'. After all BB is a contributor to the
>> intercept and even that cheap ass street panhandler "Commander X" aka
>> 'curbhugger chris' got a whole damn writeup in the New Yorker.
>>
>> RR
>>
>

Mea Culpa regarding the presumption it was Best's sig (it was an html
post with links obscured) but NO apology at all for the presumption of
'future rewards' or Best being a "Bird dog in a snipe hunt' who's not
cognizant of who the 'hunters' are... or perhaps he is.

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From shelley at misanthropia.org  Mon Oct 12 10:28:55 2015
From: shelley at misanthropia.org (Shelley)
Date: Mon, 12 Oct 2015 10:28:55 -0700
Subject: WHY might Coderman, tbiehn @ themikebest BE THE SAME PERSON
In-Reply-To: <CAKtE3zfycyuVXnKLBF_T_3NxSWxK2davvPaDchROzcV7-2svCA@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAKtE3zfycyuVXnKLBF_T_3NxSWxK2davvPaDchROzcV7-2svCA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <20151012172839.3D1A16801CF@frontend2.nyi.internal>

On October 12, 2015 10:22:22 AM Travis Biehn <tbiehn at gmail.com> wrote:

> Evidence:
> They all use gmail.com.
> Gmail.com allows free account creation.
>
> They COULD all be the same person. Lets prove this out once and for all.
>
> Discuss.
>
> -Travis
>

youmadbro.jpg?  You're a dork ;)





From themikebest at gmail.com  Mon Oct 12 07:32:28 2015
From: themikebest at gmail.com (Michael Best)
Date: Mon, 12 Oct 2015 10:32:28 -0400
Subject: Trying to invoke Godwin's law for some threads on this so called list
Message-ID: <CANFTA09JD_u-jUs2Gg+RAbR7ken+i9wusaqRR3BO7Tn1uhRusQ@mail.gmail.com>

I assume you mean because of all the anti-semitic remarks, shoah denying,
racist remarks and talk of racial cleansing that hasn't been going on?

Different opinion=wrong-bad-evil-hate-suspect-accuse

I guess there has been *some* intolerance and personal attacks, though....
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From tbiehn at gmail.com  Mon Oct 12 07:32:47 2015
From: tbiehn at gmail.com (Travis Biehn)
Date: Mon, 12 Oct 2015 10:32:47 -0400
Subject: WHY make a fake GCHQ slide?
In-Reply-To: <CANFTA0_htCCC37FLkizmE2rP5egPzvit9WZWX8h6eOyS7Ftx5A@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CANFTA0-DN1XRUNc=xhEw3X2r=6MsOn30f-uobhkq98zUJPSqkA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAJVRA1SZYodFH+ESF8zekqa+3Y9LjzWn3YHTwtnfCL8kbJK=Rw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CANFTA08UhvWyA8ssLH7cp8-HzkOyrsqdfNqG24oMeDOig+eeTA@mail.gmail.com>
 <20151012114534.GB2778@sivokote.iziade.m$>
 <CANFTA0-H4=9ZBvhXO8yFeGs+WapYd2JaiYYioFacNS5u=djCNw@mail.gmail.com>
 <20151012121921.GC2778@sivokote.iziade.m$>
 <CANFTA0_gGhL-cZ3TwKLR5KQWNz57-dTqAPST9pS2FnzrO-FL5g@mail.gmail.com>
 <20151012125507.GD2778@sivokote.iziade.m$>
 <CANFTA08-nvMeetibdVNAn0r_OfQMQNDgaxpZ0qX96FjdC93C2g@mail.gmail.com>
 <20151012131038.GE2778@sivokote.iziade.m$>
 <CANFTA0-rPOOjcNoPQvgxehD52pYK-DHK7eDzSJ=o=xtS-Uue5A@mail.gmail.com>
 <20151012134617.495AE6800ED@frontend2.nyi.internal>
 <CANFTA09kcmcC4pHKVP1rtLtO_UQa8kTMjaaP5Hx23mk=F2okiA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAKtE3zd+JhOSTP+HkZ_40KZKDuN5XZZxfB9PyE5fiG_gxQL6_w@mail.gmail.com>
 <CANFTA0_htCCC37FLkizmE2rP5egPzvit9WZWX8h6eOyS7Ftx5A@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAKtE3zdxXDe_=pMxDbNyyhbU8iA=t0Jqp_3bPaY6Df96pYytvg@mail.gmail.com>

Mike,

Nice troll,

My point is that specifically the value of this 'navel gazing' or
hypothetical conversation is very limited. Since you have not proven it,
what data do you ask us to look at? This entire conversation asks us to
suspend our disbelief in order to discuss the possible motivations of an
unnamed attacker who faked a GCHQ slide.

>From the beginning I've maintained it was asinine and pointless, at worst
you're riling up the neophytes who don't understand what's going on.

-Travis

On Mon, Oct 12, 2015 at 10:11 AM, Michael Best <themikebest at gmail.com>
wrote:

> I never said I proved the slide is fake, Travis. In fact, I've said
> several times that I've all done is prove that it could be fake. I said it
> in the mailing list and in the original posts on my site.
>
> *Please* try to read what you're criticizing/arguing/responding to. I
> know it can be hard, or boring, or frustrating, but it's essential to a
> dialogue that you respond to what the other person/side/position said and
> not confabulate something (as is human nature) or worse yet, build a
> strawman.
>
> Forcing your targets to *ahem* 'go dark' by instilling paranoia is exactly
>> the opposite of what 'an IA / TLA' wants.
>
>
> So categorical, monolithic and single minded! One might even say "overly
> so" lol
>
> On Mon, Oct 12, 2015 at 10:02 AM, Travis Biehn <tbiehn at gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> Mike,
>> You haven't proven that they were fake. Being able to counterfeit a
>> dollar bill does not all dollar bills counterfeit make. It's been one giant
>> navel gazing exercise.
>>
>> These disclosures only serve to further confirm opsec procedures long
>> recommended and employed. This slide is an advertisement for Tor (which
>> some hold to be a government honeypot, I do not.)
>>
>> Forcing your targets to *ahem* 'go dark' by instilling paranoia is
>> exactly the opposite of what 'an IA / TLA' wants.
>>
>> -Travis
>>
>> On Mon, Oct 12, 2015 at 9:55 AM, Michael Best <themikebest at gmail.com>
>> wrote:
>>
>>> I think Snowden has become such a folk hero that some people may leap to
>>> defend what seems like an attack on him without taking as much time to look
>>> at the data/posts as they would otherwise.
>>>
>>> On Mon, Oct 12, 2015 at 9:46 AM, Shelley <shelley at misanthropia.org>
>>> wrote:
>>>
>>>> On October 12, 2015 6:20:46 AM Michael Best <themikebest at gmail.com>
>>>> wrote:
>>>>
>>>> I tried to list their motives under the GCHQ/UK motives, who would be
>>>>> more
>>>>> likely to fake the slide anyway and are the ones alleged of having
>>>>> leaked
>>>>> documents to the Independent on behalf of JTRIG, are a fairly likely
>>>>> candidate.
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Yes, you did list a number of possibilities.  It sometimes seems as
>>>> though the same few people do not read and/or comprehend responses before
>>>> replying to them.
>>>>
>>>> Faking a slide like this would be a good way to inspire paranoia
>>>>> and divide a community, no? It got Cryptome to post a notice on their
>>>>> site
>>>>> for a week or two, alerting people to the possibility that they'd been
>>>>> targeted by GCHQ by visiting Cryptome. Sounds like JTRIG-ish paranoia,
>>>>> no?
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Agreed.  It could be an effective way to deter visitors to Cryptome,
>>>> possibly to divert attention away from something posted there around the
>>>> time this all began.
>>>>
>>>> -S
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>> On Mon, Oct 12, 2015 at 9:10 AM, Georgi Guninski <
>>>>> guninski at guninski.com>
>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>> >
>>>>> >
>>>>> https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Joint_Threat_Research_Intelligence_Group&oldid=670966374
>>>>> >
>>>>> > Joint Threat Research Intelligence Group
>>>>> >
>>>>> > In June 2015, NSA files published by Glenn Greenwald revealed new
>>>>> > details about JTRIG's work at covertly manipulating online
>>>>> > communities.[6]
>>>>> >
>>>>> >
>>>>> > On Mon, Oct 12, 2015 at 08:58:33AM -0400, Michael Best wrote:
>>>>> > > >
>>>>> > > > So assuming Snowden "borrowed" the slide from the NSA and he
>>>>> didn't get
>>>>> > >
>>>>> > > owned, the slide is _REAL_.
>>>>> > >
>>>>> > >
>>>>> > > I don't think I understand your mean, if we assuming it's real, it
>>>>> > follows
>>>>> > > that it's real? I think I walked into a language barrier.
>>>>> > >
>>>>> > >
>>>>> > > > Having in mind Snowden likely have large pile of slides, if he
>>>>> got
>>>>> > > > owned, likely all/the majority of them would likely be fake.
>>>>> > > > Is this plausible?
>>>>> > >
>>>>> > >
>>>>> > > Not necessarily, that's not how disinfo works a lot of the time.
>>>>> > >
>>>>> > > And did you missed the us-natsec trolling about the eu appearing to
>>>>> > > > trust Snowden's slides (though sometimes they can't prove it)?
>>>>> > >
>>>>> > >
>>>>> > > No, there just wasn't much to respond to.
>>>>> > >
>>>>> > > On Mon, Oct 12, 2015 at 8:55 AM, Georgi Guninski <
>>>>> guninski at guninski.com>
>>>>> > > wrote:
>>>>> > >
>>>>> > > > So assuming Snowden "borrowed" the slide from the NSA and he
>>>>> didn't get
>>>>> > > > owned, the slide is _REAL_.
>>>>> > > >
>>>>> > > > Having in mind Snowden likely have large pile of slides, if he
>>>>> got
>>>>> > > > owned, likely all/the majority of them would likely be fake.
>>>>> > > >
>>>>> > > > Is this plausible?
>>>>> > > >
>>>>> > > > And did you missed the us-natsec trolling about the eu appearing
>>>>> to
>>>>> > > > trust Snowden's slides (though sometimes they can't prove it)?
>>>>> > > >
>>>>> > > >
>>>>> > > > On Mon, Oct 12, 2015 at 08:22:37AM -0400, Michael Best wrote:
>>>>> > > > > No but as I and others have noted, he didn't look at all of the
>>>>> > materials
>>>>> > > > > he handed over to journalists and couldn't possibly be
>>>>> expected to
>>>>> > > > remember
>>>>> > > > > all the ones he did see well enough to possibly be able to ID
>>>>> this
>>>>> > one as
>>>>> > > > > altered or forged. He was only able to argue against the other
>>>>> > documents
>>>>> > > > > because he had never been in touch with the outlet releasing
>>>>> them,
>>>>> > > > contrary
>>>>> > > > > to their apparent belief.
>>>>> > > > >
>>>>> > > > > On Mon, Oct 12, 2015 at 8:19 AM, Georgi Guninski <
>>>>> > guninski at guninski.com>
>>>>> > > > > wrote:
>>>>> > > > >
>>>>> > > > > > On Mon, Oct 12, 2015 at 07:50:14AM -0400, Michael Best wrote:
>>>>> > > > > > > As I think I said in the other thread, less specific
>>>>> charges that
>>>>> > > > require
>>>>> > > > > > > more specific proof and almost never leveled before a
>>>>> trial is
>>>>> > set,
>>>>> > > > > > because
>>>>> > > > > > > it forces the issue to be tried in the court of public
>>>>> opinion,
>>>>> > > > where a
>>>>> > > > > > lot
>>>>> > > > > > > of information can't be released lest it spoil an
>>>>> investigation
>>>>> > or
>>>>> > > > > > > potential trial. There's also the fact that there'd be
>>>>> little to
>>>>> > > > gain at
>>>>> > > > > > > this point by alleging that the slides are fake since there
>>>>> > would be
>>>>> > > > few
>>>>> > > > > > > people to believe it,
>>>>> > > > > > >
>>>>> > > > > > > "NSA hasn't said it's fake" doesn't seem like a strong
>>>>> argument -
>>>>> > > > > > > especially for a non-NSA slide. And again - *Snowden
>>>>> himself* has
>>>>> > > > accused
>>>>> > > > > > > outlets of releasing slides attributed to him that *he
>>>>> says he
>>>>> > did
>>>>> > > > not
>>>>> > > > > > > provide*.
>>>>> > > > > > >
>>>>> > > > > > Likely the NSA would distribute fake slides just to discredit
>>>>> > Snowden.
>>>>> > > > > >
>>>>> > > > > > Does Snowden deny the authencity of this slide?
>>>>> > > > > >
>>>>> > > > > > This slide appeared in _too many_ news AFAICT to get
>>>>> unnoticed.
>>>>> > > > > >
>>>>> > > >
>>>>> >
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>
>>
>> --
>> Twitter <https://twitter.com/tbiehn> | LinkedIn
>> <http://www.linkedin.com/in/travisbiehn> | GitHub
>> <http://github.com/tbiehn> | TravisBiehn.com <http://www.travisbiehn.com> |
>> Google Plus <https://plus.google.com/+TravisBiehn>
>>
>
>


-- 
Twitter <https://twitter.com/tbiehn> | LinkedIn
<http://www.linkedin.com/in/travisbiehn> | GitHub <http://github.com/tbiehn>
| TravisBiehn.com <http://www.travisbiehn.com> | Google Plus
<https://plus.google.com/+TravisBiehn>
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From themikebest at gmail.com  Mon Oct 12 07:36:11 2015
From: themikebest at gmail.com (Michael Best)
Date: Mon, 12 Oct 2015 10:36:11 -0400
Subject: WHY make a fake GCHQ slide?
In-Reply-To: <CAKtE3zdxXDe_=pMxDbNyyhbU8iA=t0Jqp_3bPaY6Df96pYytvg@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CANFTA0-DN1XRUNc=xhEw3X2r=6MsOn30f-uobhkq98zUJPSqkA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAJVRA1SZYodFH+ESF8zekqa+3Y9LjzWn3YHTwtnfCL8kbJK=Rw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CANFTA08UhvWyA8ssLH7cp8-HzkOyrsqdfNqG24oMeDOig+eeTA@mail.gmail.com>
 <20151012114534.GB2778@sivokote.iziade.m$>
 <CANFTA0-H4=9ZBvhXO8yFeGs+WapYd2JaiYYioFacNS5u=djCNw@mail.gmail.com>
 <20151012121921.GC2778@sivokote.iziade.m$>
 <CANFTA0_gGhL-cZ3TwKLR5KQWNz57-dTqAPST9pS2FnzrO-FL5g@mail.gmail.com>
 <20151012125507.GD2778@sivokote.iziade.m$>
 <CANFTA08-nvMeetibdVNAn0r_OfQMQNDgaxpZ0qX96FjdC93C2g@mail.gmail.com>
 <20151012131038.GE2778@sivokote.iziade.m$>
 <CANFTA0-rPOOjcNoPQvgxehD52pYK-DHK7eDzSJ=o=xtS-Uue5A@mail.gmail.com>
 <20151012134617.495AE6800ED@frontend2.nyi.internal>
 <CANFTA09kcmcC4pHKVP1rtLtO_UQa8kTMjaaP5Hx23mk=F2okiA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAKtE3zd+JhOSTP+HkZ_40KZKDuN5XZZxfB9PyE5fiG_gxQL6_w@mail.gmail.com>
 <CANFTA0_htCCC37FLkizmE2rP5egPzvit9WZWX8h6eOyS7Ftx5A@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAKtE3zdxXDe_=pMxDbNyyhbU8iA=t0Jqp_3bPaY6Df96pYytvg@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CANFTA0_5Og004+XMz5Ht_D3Sp8HAFVM6iQYrX1tcvNrQ1Mt2sQ@mail.gmail.com>

Asking to help explore the possibility and look for evidence that could
either prove it or disprove it, more like.

On Mon, Oct 12, 2015 at 10:32 AM, Travis Biehn <tbiehn at gmail.com> wrote:

> Mike,
>
> Nice troll,
>
> My point is that specifically the value of this 'navel gazing' or
> hypothetical conversation is very limited. Since you have not proven it,
> what data do you ask us to look at? This entire conversation asks us to
> suspend our disbelief in order to discuss the possible motivations of an
> unnamed attacker who faked a GCHQ slide.
>
> From the beginning I've maintained it was asinine and pointless, at worst
> you're riling up the neophytes who don't understand what's going on.
>
> -Travis
>
> On Mon, Oct 12, 2015 at 10:11 AM, Michael Best <themikebest at gmail.com>
> wrote:
>
>> I never said I proved the slide is fake, Travis. In fact, I've said
>> several times that I've all done is prove that it could be fake. I said it
>> in the mailing list and in the original posts on my site.
>>
>> *Please* try to read what you're criticizing/arguing/responding to. I
>> know it can be hard, or boring, or frustrating, but it's essential to a
>> dialogue that you respond to what the other person/side/position said and
>> not confabulate something (as is human nature) or worse yet, build a
>> strawman.
>>
>> Forcing your targets to *ahem* 'go dark' by instilling paranoia is
>>> exactly the opposite of what 'an IA / TLA' wants.
>>
>>
>> So categorical, monolithic and single minded! One might even say "overly
>> so" lol
>>
>> On Mon, Oct 12, 2015 at 10:02 AM, Travis Biehn <tbiehn at gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>>> Mike,
>>> You haven't proven that they were fake. Being able to counterfeit a
>>> dollar bill does not all dollar bills counterfeit make. It's been one giant
>>> navel gazing exercise.
>>>
>>> These disclosures only serve to further confirm opsec procedures long
>>> recommended and employed. This slide is an advertisement for Tor (which
>>> some hold to be a government honeypot, I do not.)
>>>
>>> Forcing your targets to *ahem* 'go dark' by instilling paranoia is
>>> exactly the opposite of what 'an IA / TLA' wants.
>>>
>>> -Travis
>>>
>>> On Mon, Oct 12, 2015 at 9:55 AM, Michael Best <themikebest at gmail.com>
>>> wrote:
>>>
>>>> I think Snowden has become such a folk hero that some people may leap
>>>> to defend what seems like an attack on him without taking as much time to
>>>> look at the data/posts as they would otherwise.
>>>>
>>>> On Mon, Oct 12, 2015 at 9:46 AM, Shelley <shelley at misanthropia.org>
>>>> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> On October 12, 2015 6:20:46 AM Michael Best <themikebest at gmail.com>
>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>> I tried to list their motives under the GCHQ/UK motives, who would be
>>>>>> more
>>>>>> likely to fake the slide anyway and are the ones alleged of having
>>>>>> leaked
>>>>>> documents to the Independent on behalf of JTRIG, are a fairly likely
>>>>>> candidate.
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Yes, you did list a number of possibilities.  It sometimes seems as
>>>>> though the same few people do not read and/or comprehend responses before
>>>>> replying to them.
>>>>>
>>>>> Faking a slide like this would be a good way to inspire paranoia
>>>>>> and divide a community, no? It got Cryptome to post a notice on their
>>>>>> site
>>>>>> for a week or two, alerting people to the possibility that they'd been
>>>>>> targeted by GCHQ by visiting Cryptome. Sounds like JTRIG-ish
>>>>>> paranoia, no?
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Agreed.  It could be an effective way to deter visitors to Cryptome,
>>>>> possibly to divert attention away from something posted there around the
>>>>> time this all began.
>>>>>
>>>>> -S
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>> On Mon, Oct 12, 2015 at 9:10 AM, Georgi Guninski <
>>>>>> guninski at guninski.com>
>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>> >
>>>>>> >
>>>>>> https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Joint_Threat_Research_Intelligence_Group&oldid=670966374
>>>>>> >
>>>>>> > Joint Threat Research Intelligence Group
>>>>>> >
>>>>>> > In June 2015, NSA files published by Glenn Greenwald revealed new
>>>>>> > details about JTRIG's work at covertly manipulating online
>>>>>> > communities.[6]
>>>>>> >
>>>>>> >
>>>>>> > On Mon, Oct 12, 2015 at 08:58:33AM -0400, Michael Best wrote:
>>>>>> > > >
>>>>>> > > > So assuming Snowden "borrowed" the slide from the NSA and he
>>>>>> didn't get
>>>>>> > >
>>>>>> > > owned, the slide is _REAL_.
>>>>>> > >
>>>>>> > >
>>>>>> > > I don't think I understand your mean, if we assuming it's real, it
>>>>>> > follows
>>>>>> > > that it's real? I think I walked into a language barrier.
>>>>>> > >
>>>>>> > >
>>>>>> > > > Having in mind Snowden likely have large pile of slides, if he
>>>>>> got
>>>>>> > > > owned, likely all/the majority of them would likely be fake.
>>>>>> > > > Is this plausible?
>>>>>> > >
>>>>>> > >
>>>>>> > > Not necessarily, that's not how disinfo works a lot of the time.
>>>>>> > >
>>>>>> > > And did you missed the us-natsec trolling about the eu appearing
>>>>>> to
>>>>>> > > > trust Snowden's slides (though sometimes they can't prove it)?
>>>>>> > >
>>>>>> > >
>>>>>> > > No, there just wasn't much to respond to.
>>>>>> > >
>>>>>> > > On Mon, Oct 12, 2015 at 8:55 AM, Georgi Guninski <
>>>>>> guninski at guninski.com>
>>>>>> > > wrote:
>>>>>> > >
>>>>>> > > > So assuming Snowden "borrowed" the slide from the NSA and he
>>>>>> didn't get
>>>>>> > > > owned, the slide is _REAL_.
>>>>>> > > >
>>>>>> > > > Having in mind Snowden likely have large pile of slides, if he
>>>>>> got
>>>>>> > > > owned, likely all/the majority of them would likely be fake.
>>>>>> > > >
>>>>>> > > > Is this plausible?
>>>>>> > > >
>>>>>> > > > And did you missed the us-natsec trolling about the eu
>>>>>> appearing to
>>>>>> > > > trust Snowden's slides (though sometimes they can't prove it)?
>>>>>> > > >
>>>>>> > > >
>>>>>> > > > On Mon, Oct 12, 2015 at 08:22:37AM -0400, Michael Best wrote:
>>>>>> > > > > No but as I and others have noted, he didn't look at all of
>>>>>> the
>>>>>> > materials
>>>>>> > > > > he handed over to journalists and couldn't possibly be
>>>>>> expected to
>>>>>> > > > remember
>>>>>> > > > > all the ones he did see well enough to possibly be able to ID
>>>>>> this
>>>>>> > one as
>>>>>> > > > > altered or forged. He was only able to argue against the other
>>>>>> > documents
>>>>>> > > > > because he had never been in touch with the outlet releasing
>>>>>> them,
>>>>>> > > > contrary
>>>>>> > > > > to their apparent belief.
>>>>>> > > > >
>>>>>> > > > > On Mon, Oct 12, 2015 at 8:19 AM, Georgi Guninski <
>>>>>> > guninski at guninski.com>
>>>>>> > > > > wrote:
>>>>>> > > > >
>>>>>> > > > > > On Mon, Oct 12, 2015 at 07:50:14AM -0400, Michael Best
>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>> > > > > > > As I think I said in the other thread, less specific
>>>>>> charges that
>>>>>> > > > require
>>>>>> > > > > > > more specific proof and almost never leveled before a
>>>>>> trial is
>>>>>> > set,
>>>>>> > > > > > because
>>>>>> > > > > > > it forces the issue to be tried in the court of public
>>>>>> opinion,
>>>>>> > > > where a
>>>>>> > > > > > lot
>>>>>> > > > > > > of information can't be released lest it spoil an
>>>>>> investigation
>>>>>> > or
>>>>>> > > > > > > potential trial. There's also the fact that there'd be
>>>>>> little to
>>>>>> > > > gain at
>>>>>> > > > > > > this point by alleging that the slides are fake since
>>>>>> there
>>>>>> > would be
>>>>>> > > > few
>>>>>> > > > > > > people to believe it,
>>>>>> > > > > > >
>>>>>> > > > > > > "NSA hasn't said it's fake" doesn't seem like a strong
>>>>>> argument -
>>>>>> > > > > > > especially for a non-NSA slide. And again - *Snowden
>>>>>> himself* has
>>>>>> > > > accused
>>>>>> > > > > > > outlets of releasing slides attributed to him that *he
>>>>>> says he
>>>>>> > did
>>>>>> > > > not
>>>>>> > > > > > > provide*.
>>>>>> > > > > > >
>>>>>> > > > > > Likely the NSA would distribute fake slides just to
>>>>>> discredit
>>>>>> > Snowden.
>>>>>> > > > > >
>>>>>> > > > > > Does Snowden deny the authencity of this slide?
>>>>>> > > > > >
>>>>>> > > > > > This slide appeared in _too many_ news AFAICT to get
>>>>>> unnoticed.
>>>>>> > > > > >
>>>>>> > > >
>>>>>> >
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> --
>>> Twitter <https://twitter.com/tbiehn> | LinkedIn
>>> <http://www.linkedin.com/in/travisbiehn> | GitHub
>>> <http://github.com/tbiehn> | TravisBiehn.com
>>> <http://www.travisbiehn.com> | Google Plus
>>> <https://plus.google.com/+TravisBiehn>
>>>
>>
>>
>
>
> --
> Twitter <https://twitter.com/tbiehn> | LinkedIn
> <http://www.linkedin.com/in/travisbiehn> | GitHub
> <http://github.com/tbiehn> | TravisBiehn.com <http://www.travisbiehn.com> |
> Google Plus <https://plus.google.com/+TravisBiehn>
>
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From themikebest at gmail.com  Mon Oct 12 07:39:59 2015
From: themikebest at gmail.com (Michael Best)
Date: Mon, 12 Oct 2015 10:39:59 -0400
Subject: why we need more cryptome mirrors, in all corners
In-Reply-To: <561BC561.6020605@riseup.net>
References: <CAJVRA1QMqMQL8+At127bHNyX21jTwvdC1_O0shmisRtSE+Fo4g@mail.gmail.com>
 <561BC561.6020605@riseup.net>
Message-ID: <CANFTA09VZcKsXqDHQa1O2vyp9Xw5D8wF-4hqwZuhngp7cCmU7g@mail.gmail.com>

To be perfectly clear, archive.org/nationalsecurityarchive is NOT the
national security archive from GWU. It is wholly separate, and omitted the
"internet" from National Security Internet Archive (NSIA) from the
identifier in the URL because of length and because NSIA is too few
letters.

The WWU NSArchive is great and has a lot of stuff mine doesn't, but there's
plenty in NSIA you won't find in the GWU NSArchive, too.

On Mon, Oct 12, 2015 at 10:36 AM, Razer <Rayzer at riseup.net> wrote:

> "Let me make this PERFECTLY CLEAR"
>
> It's not a 'mirror'. So far as I can see, it's a dump. The National
> Security Archive maintains a mirror @IA and you aren't going to find any
> dox 'in the wild' or modified, or even SUSPECTED of being modified dox on
> that reflector.
>
>
> On 10/11/2015 03:45 PM, coderman wrote:
>
> for this, i am quite grateful to see the archive.org natsec section
> expanded with cryptome mirror!
>
>
>
>
> On 10/11/2015 03:45 PM, coderman wrote:
>
> On 10/10/15, Shelley <shelley at misanthropia.org> <shelley at misanthropia.org> wrote:
>
> ...
> The Cryptome archives **are** publicly accessible.  John limits bots and
> leechers to a certain number of files per day (as is his right, he is
> paying for the bandwidth), approx 100 iirc, but anyone who can use search
> strings can find anything on the site.
>
>
> it is exceptionally difficult, short of ordering physical duplicates,
> to obtain a significant portion of cryptome archive from cryptome.org.
>
> part of this is inherent abuse - any mirror gets serious algorithmic
> beatings - akin to HackingTeam mirrors perhaps, not counting the
> mindless cloud VM bot walkers, annoying enough.  even the hidden
> service only mirrors got offensive proddings. remember, some of
> cryptome-opponents are relying on obscurity - thwarted every time some
> makes a mirror...
>
> for this, i am quite grateful to see the archive.org natsec section
> expanded with cryptome mirror!https://archive.org/details/nationalsecurityarchive
>
> thanks to all involved (esp. you, Michael
>
>
> best regards,
>
>
>
>
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From tbiehn at gmail.com  Mon Oct 12 07:45:34 2015
From: tbiehn at gmail.com (Travis Biehn)
Date: Mon, 12 Oct 2015 10:45:34 -0400
Subject: WHY make a fake GCHQ slide?
In-Reply-To: <CANFTA0_5Og004+XMz5Ht_D3Sp8HAFVM6iQYrX1tcvNrQ1Mt2sQ@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CANFTA0-DN1XRUNc=xhEw3X2r=6MsOn30f-uobhkq98zUJPSqkA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAJVRA1SZYodFH+ESF8zekqa+3Y9LjzWn3YHTwtnfCL8kbJK=Rw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CANFTA08UhvWyA8ssLH7cp8-HzkOyrsqdfNqG24oMeDOig+eeTA@mail.gmail.com>
 <20151012114534.GB2778@sivokote.iziade.m$>
 <CANFTA0-H4=9ZBvhXO8yFeGs+WapYd2JaiYYioFacNS5u=djCNw@mail.gmail.com>
 <20151012121921.GC2778@sivokote.iziade.m$>
 <CANFTA0_gGhL-cZ3TwKLR5KQWNz57-dTqAPST9pS2FnzrO-FL5g@mail.gmail.com>
 <20151012125507.GD2778@sivokote.iziade.m$>
 <CANFTA08-nvMeetibdVNAn0r_OfQMQNDgaxpZ0qX96FjdC93C2g@mail.gmail.com>
 <20151012131038.GE2778@sivokote.iziade.m$>
 <CANFTA0-rPOOjcNoPQvgxehD52pYK-DHK7eDzSJ=o=xtS-Uue5A@mail.gmail.com>
 <20151012134617.495AE6800ED@frontend2.nyi.internal>
 <CANFTA09kcmcC4pHKVP1rtLtO_UQa8kTMjaaP5Hx23mk=F2okiA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAKtE3zd+JhOSTP+HkZ_40KZKDuN5XZZxfB9PyE5fiG_gxQL6_w@mail.gmail.com>
 <CANFTA0_htCCC37FLkizmE2rP5egPzvit9WZWX8h6eOyS7Ftx5A@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAKtE3zdxXDe_=pMxDbNyyhbU8iA=t0Jqp_3bPaY6Df96pYytvg@mail.gmail.com>
 <CANFTA0_5Og004+XMz5Ht_D3Sp8HAFVM6iQYrX1tcvNrQ1Mt2sQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAKtE3zc_PPfix7ohrRwaqpnUrcdMZE=JC1WKYwkxeiT7-JgPww@mail.gmail.com>

Neither goal is achievable?

-Travis

On Mon, Oct 12, 2015 at 10:36 AM, Michael Best <themikebest at gmail.com>
wrote:

> Asking to help explore the possibility and look for evidence that could
> either prove it or disprove it, more like.
>
> On Mon, Oct 12, 2015 at 10:32 AM, Travis Biehn <tbiehn at gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> Mike,
>>
>> Nice troll,
>>
>> My point is that specifically the value of this 'navel gazing' or
>> hypothetical conversation is very limited. Since you have not proven it,
>> what data do you ask us to look at? This entire conversation asks us to
>> suspend our disbelief in order to discuss the possible motivations of an
>> unnamed attacker who faked a GCHQ slide.
>>
>> From the beginning I've maintained it was asinine and pointless, at worst
>> you're riling up the neophytes who don't understand what's going on.
>>
>> -Travis
>>
>> On Mon, Oct 12, 2015 at 10:11 AM, Michael Best <themikebest at gmail.com>
>> wrote:
>>
>>> I never said I proved the slide is fake, Travis. In fact, I've said
>>> several times that I've all done is prove that it could be fake. I said it
>>> in the mailing list and in the original posts on my site.
>>>
>>> *Please* try to read what you're criticizing/arguing/responding to. I
>>> know it can be hard, or boring, or frustrating, but it's essential to a
>>> dialogue that you respond to what the other person/side/position said and
>>> not confabulate something (as is human nature) or worse yet, build a
>>> strawman.
>>>
>>> Forcing your targets to *ahem* 'go dark' by instilling paranoia is
>>>> exactly the opposite of what 'an IA / TLA' wants.
>>>
>>>
>>> So categorical, monolithic and single minded! One might even say "overly
>>> so" lol
>>>
>>> On Mon, Oct 12, 2015 at 10:02 AM, Travis Biehn <tbiehn at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>> Mike,
>>>> You haven't proven that they were fake. Being able to counterfeit a
>>>> dollar bill does not all dollar bills counterfeit make. It's been one giant
>>>> navel gazing exercise.
>>>>
>>>> These disclosures only serve to further confirm opsec procedures long
>>>> recommended and employed. This slide is an advertisement for Tor (which
>>>> some hold to be a government honeypot, I do not.)
>>>>
>>>> Forcing your targets to *ahem* 'go dark' by instilling paranoia is
>>>> exactly the opposite of what 'an IA / TLA' wants.
>>>>
>>>> -Travis
>>>>
>>>> On Mon, Oct 12, 2015 at 9:55 AM, Michael Best <themikebest at gmail.com>
>>>> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> I think Snowden has become such a folk hero that some people may leap
>>>>> to defend what seems like an attack on him without taking as much time to
>>>>> look at the data/posts as they would otherwise.
>>>>>
>>>>> On Mon, Oct 12, 2015 at 9:46 AM, Shelley <shelley at misanthropia.org>
>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> On October 12, 2015 6:20:46 AM Michael Best <themikebest at gmail.com>
>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I tried to list their motives under the GCHQ/UK motives, who would be
>>>>>>> more
>>>>>>> likely to fake the slide anyway and are the ones alleged of having
>>>>>>> leaked
>>>>>>> documents to the Independent on behalf of JTRIG, are a fairly likely
>>>>>>> candidate.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Yes, you did list a number of possibilities.  It sometimes seems as
>>>>>> though the same few people do not read and/or comprehend responses before
>>>>>> replying to them.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Faking a slide like this would be a good way to inspire paranoia
>>>>>>> and divide a community, no? It got Cryptome to post a notice on
>>>>>>> their site
>>>>>>> for a week or two, alerting people to the possibility that they'd
>>>>>>> been
>>>>>>> targeted by GCHQ by visiting Cryptome. Sounds like JTRIG-ish
>>>>>>> paranoia, no?
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Agreed.  It could be an effective way to deter visitors to Cryptome,
>>>>>> possibly to divert attention away from something posted there around the
>>>>>> time this all began.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> -S
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> On Mon, Oct 12, 2015 at 9:10 AM, Georgi Guninski <
>>>>>>> guninski at guninski.com>
>>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> >
>>>>>>> >
>>>>>>> https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Joint_Threat_Research_Intelligence_Group&oldid=670966374
>>>>>>> >
>>>>>>> > Joint Threat Research Intelligence Group
>>>>>>> >
>>>>>>> > In June 2015, NSA files published by Glenn Greenwald revealed new
>>>>>>> > details about JTRIG's work at covertly manipulating online
>>>>>>> > communities.[6]
>>>>>>> >
>>>>>>> >
>>>>>>> > On Mon, Oct 12, 2015 at 08:58:33AM -0400, Michael Best wrote:
>>>>>>> > > >
>>>>>>> > > > So assuming Snowden "borrowed" the slide from the NSA and he
>>>>>>> didn't get
>>>>>>> > >
>>>>>>> > > owned, the slide is _REAL_.
>>>>>>> > >
>>>>>>> > >
>>>>>>> > > I don't think I understand your mean, if we assuming it's real,
>>>>>>> it
>>>>>>> > follows
>>>>>>> > > that it's real? I think I walked into a language barrier.
>>>>>>> > >
>>>>>>> > >
>>>>>>> > > > Having in mind Snowden likely have large pile of slides, if he
>>>>>>> got
>>>>>>> > > > owned, likely all/the majority of them would likely be fake.
>>>>>>> > > > Is this plausible?
>>>>>>> > >
>>>>>>> > >
>>>>>>> > > Not necessarily, that's not how disinfo works a lot of the time.
>>>>>>> > >
>>>>>>> > > And did you missed the us-natsec trolling about the eu appearing
>>>>>>> to
>>>>>>> > > > trust Snowden's slides (though sometimes they can't prove it)?
>>>>>>> > >
>>>>>>> > >
>>>>>>> > > No, there just wasn't much to respond to.
>>>>>>> > >
>>>>>>> > > On Mon, Oct 12, 2015 at 8:55 AM, Georgi Guninski <
>>>>>>> guninski at guninski.com>
>>>>>>> > > wrote:
>>>>>>> > >
>>>>>>> > > > So assuming Snowden "borrowed" the slide from the NSA and he
>>>>>>> didn't get
>>>>>>> > > > owned, the slide is _REAL_.
>>>>>>> > > >
>>>>>>> > > > Having in mind Snowden likely have large pile of slides, if he
>>>>>>> got
>>>>>>> > > > owned, likely all/the majority of them would likely be fake.
>>>>>>> > > >
>>>>>>> > > > Is this plausible?
>>>>>>> > > >
>>>>>>> > > > And did you missed the us-natsec trolling about the eu
>>>>>>> appearing to
>>>>>>> > > > trust Snowden's slides (though sometimes they can't prove it)?
>>>>>>> > > >
>>>>>>> > > >
>>>>>>> > > > On Mon, Oct 12, 2015 at 08:22:37AM -0400, Michael Best wrote:
>>>>>>> > > > > No but as I and others have noted, he didn't look at all of
>>>>>>> the
>>>>>>> > materials
>>>>>>> > > > > he handed over to journalists and couldn't possibly be
>>>>>>> expected to
>>>>>>> > > > remember
>>>>>>> > > > > all the ones he did see well enough to possibly be able to
>>>>>>> ID this
>>>>>>> > one as
>>>>>>> > > > > altered or forged. He was only able to argue against the
>>>>>>> other
>>>>>>> > documents
>>>>>>> > > > > because he had never been in touch with the outlet releasing
>>>>>>> them,
>>>>>>> > > > contrary
>>>>>>> > > > > to their apparent belief.
>>>>>>> > > > >
>>>>>>> > > > > On Mon, Oct 12, 2015 at 8:19 AM, Georgi Guninski <
>>>>>>> > guninski at guninski.com>
>>>>>>> > > > > wrote:
>>>>>>> > > > >
>>>>>>> > > > > > On Mon, Oct 12, 2015 at 07:50:14AM -0400, Michael Best
>>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>> > > > > > > As I think I said in the other thread, less specific
>>>>>>> charges that
>>>>>>> > > > require
>>>>>>> > > > > > > more specific proof and almost never leveled before a
>>>>>>> trial is
>>>>>>> > set,
>>>>>>> > > > > > because
>>>>>>> > > > > > > it forces the issue to be tried in the court of public
>>>>>>> opinion,
>>>>>>> > > > where a
>>>>>>> > > > > > lot
>>>>>>> > > > > > > of information can't be released lest it spoil an
>>>>>>> investigation
>>>>>>> > or
>>>>>>> > > > > > > potential trial. There's also the fact that there'd be
>>>>>>> little to
>>>>>>> > > > gain at
>>>>>>> > > > > > > this point by alleging that the slides are fake since
>>>>>>> there
>>>>>>> > would be
>>>>>>> > > > few
>>>>>>> > > > > > > people to believe it,
>>>>>>> > > > > > >
>>>>>>> > > > > > > "NSA hasn't said it's fake" doesn't seem like a strong
>>>>>>> argument -
>>>>>>> > > > > > > especially for a non-NSA slide. And again - *Snowden
>>>>>>> himself* has
>>>>>>> > > > accused
>>>>>>> > > > > > > outlets of releasing slides attributed to him that *he
>>>>>>> says he
>>>>>>> > did
>>>>>>> > > > not
>>>>>>> > > > > > > provide*.
>>>>>>> > > > > > >
>>>>>>> > > > > > Likely the NSA would distribute fake slides just to
>>>>>>> discredit
>>>>>>> > Snowden.
>>>>>>> > > > > >
>>>>>>> > > > > > Does Snowden deny the authencity of this slide?
>>>>>>> > > > > >
>>>>>>> > > > > > This slide appeared in _too many_ news AFAICT to get
>>>>>>> unnoticed.
>>>>>>> > > > > >
>>>>>>> > > >
>>>>>>> >
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> --
>>>> Twitter <https://twitter.com/tbiehn> | LinkedIn
>>>> <http://www.linkedin.com/in/travisbiehn> | GitHub
>>>> <http://github.com/tbiehn> | TravisBiehn.com
>>>> <http://www.travisbiehn.com> | Google Plus
>>>> <https://plus.google.com/+TravisBiehn>
>>>>
>>>
>>>
>>
>>
>> --
>> Twitter <https://twitter.com/tbiehn> | LinkedIn
>> <http://www.linkedin.com/in/travisbiehn> | GitHub
>> <http://github.com/tbiehn> | TravisBiehn.com <http://www.travisbiehn.com> |
>> Google Plus <https://plus.google.com/+TravisBiehn>
>>
>
>


-- 
Twitter <https://twitter.com/tbiehn> | LinkedIn
<http://www.linkedin.com/in/travisbiehn> | GitHub <http://github.com/tbiehn>
| TravisBiehn.com <http://www.travisbiehn.com> | Google Plus
<https://plus.google.com/+TravisBiehn>
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From themikebest at gmail.com  Mon Oct 12 07:49:34 2015
From: themikebest at gmail.com (Michael Best)
Date: Mon, 12 Oct 2015 10:49:34 -0400
Subject: WHY make a fake GCHQ slide?
In-Reply-To: <CAKtE3zc_PPfix7ohrRwaqpnUrcdMZE=JC1WKYwkxeiT7-JgPww@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CANFTA0-DN1XRUNc=xhEw3X2r=6MsOn30f-uobhkq98zUJPSqkA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAJVRA1SZYodFH+ESF8zekqa+3Y9LjzWn3YHTwtnfCL8kbJK=Rw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CANFTA08UhvWyA8ssLH7cp8-HzkOyrsqdfNqG24oMeDOig+eeTA@mail.gmail.com>
 <20151012114534.GB2778@sivokote.iziade.m$>
 <CANFTA0-H4=9ZBvhXO8yFeGs+WapYd2JaiYYioFacNS5u=djCNw@mail.gmail.com>
 <20151012121921.GC2778@sivokote.iziade.m$>
 <CANFTA0_gGhL-cZ3TwKLR5KQWNz57-dTqAPST9pS2FnzrO-FL5g@mail.gmail.com>
 <20151012125507.GD2778@sivokote.iziade.m$>
 <CANFTA08-nvMeetibdVNAn0r_OfQMQNDgaxpZ0qX96FjdC93C2g@mail.gmail.com>
 <20151012131038.GE2778@sivokote.iziade.m$>
 <CANFTA0-rPOOjcNoPQvgxehD52pYK-DHK7eDzSJ=o=xtS-Uue5A@mail.gmail.com>
 <20151012134617.495AE6800ED@frontend2.nyi.internal>
 <CANFTA09kcmcC4pHKVP1rtLtO_UQa8kTMjaaP5Hx23mk=F2okiA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAKtE3zd+JhOSTP+HkZ_40KZKDuN5XZZxfB9PyE5fiG_gxQL6_w@mail.gmail.com>
 <CANFTA0_htCCC37FLkizmE2rP5egPzvit9WZWX8h6eOyS7Ftx5A@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAKtE3zdxXDe_=pMxDbNyyhbU8iA=t0Jqp_3bPaY6Df96pYytvg@mail.gmail.com>
 <CANFTA0_5Og004+XMz5Ht_D3Sp8HAFVM6iQYrX1tcvNrQ1Mt2sQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAKtE3zc_PPfix7ohrRwaqpnUrcdMZE=JC1WKYwkxeiT7-JgPww@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CANFTA08AFDCUm-A-ifXn7fczDEiVopiQbBd_Zc61L6hivhWy-Q@mail.gmail.com>

Spoken like a true researcher, free of fatalism, beyond bias and too pure
to prejudge an issue.

On Mon, Oct 12, 2015 at 10:45 AM, Travis Biehn <tbiehn at gmail.com> wrote:

> Neither goal is achievable?
>
> -Travis
>
> On Mon, Oct 12, 2015 at 10:36 AM, Michael Best <themikebest at gmail.com>
> wrote:
>
>> Asking to help explore the possibility and look for evidence that could
>> either prove it or disprove it, more like.
>>
>> On Mon, Oct 12, 2015 at 10:32 AM, Travis Biehn <tbiehn at gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>>> Mike,
>>>
>>> Nice troll,
>>>
>>> My point is that specifically the value of this 'navel gazing' or
>>> hypothetical conversation is very limited. Since you have not proven it,
>>> what data do you ask us to look at? This entire conversation asks us to
>>> suspend our disbelief in order to discuss the possible motivations of an
>>> unnamed attacker who faked a GCHQ slide.
>>>
>>> From the beginning I've maintained it was asinine and pointless, at
>>> worst you're riling up the neophytes who don't understand what's going on.
>>>
>>> -Travis
>>>
>>> On Mon, Oct 12, 2015 at 10:11 AM, Michael Best <themikebest at gmail.com>
>>> wrote:
>>>
>>>> I never said I proved the slide is fake, Travis. In fact, I've said
>>>> several times that I've all done is prove that it could be fake. I said it
>>>> in the mailing list and in the original posts on my site.
>>>>
>>>> *Please* try to read what you're criticizing/arguing/responding to. I
>>>> know it can be hard, or boring, or frustrating, but it's essential to a
>>>> dialogue that you respond to what the other person/side/position said and
>>>> not confabulate something (as is human nature) or worse yet, build a
>>>> strawman.
>>>>
>>>> Forcing your targets to *ahem* 'go dark' by instilling paranoia is
>>>>> exactly the opposite of what 'an IA / TLA' wants.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> So categorical, monolithic and single minded! One might even say
>>>> "overly so" lol
>>>>
>>>> On Mon, Oct 12, 2015 at 10:02 AM, Travis Biehn <tbiehn at gmail.com>
>>>> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> Mike,
>>>>> You haven't proven that they were fake. Being able to counterfeit a
>>>>> dollar bill does not all dollar bills counterfeit make. It's been one giant
>>>>> navel gazing exercise.
>>>>>
>>>>> These disclosures only serve to further confirm opsec procedures long
>>>>> recommended and employed. This slide is an advertisement for Tor (which
>>>>> some hold to be a government honeypot, I do not.)
>>>>>
>>>>> Forcing your targets to *ahem* 'go dark' by instilling paranoia is
>>>>> exactly the opposite of what 'an IA / TLA' wants.
>>>>>
>>>>> -Travis
>>>>>
>>>>> On Mon, Oct 12, 2015 at 9:55 AM, Michael Best <themikebest at gmail.com>
>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> I think Snowden has become such a folk hero that some people may leap
>>>>>> to defend what seems like an attack on him without taking as much time to
>>>>>> look at the data/posts as they would otherwise.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> On Mon, Oct 12, 2015 at 9:46 AM, Shelley <shelley at misanthropia.org>
>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> On October 12, 2015 6:20:46 AM Michael Best <themikebest at gmail.com>
>>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> I tried to list their motives under the GCHQ/UK motives, who would
>>>>>>>> be more
>>>>>>>> likely to fake the slide anyway and are the ones alleged of having
>>>>>>>> leaked
>>>>>>>> documents to the Independent on behalf of JTRIG, are a fairly likely
>>>>>>>> candidate.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Yes, you did list a number of possibilities.  It sometimes seems as
>>>>>>> though the same few people do not read and/or comprehend responses before
>>>>>>> replying to them.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Faking a slide like this would be a good way to inspire paranoia
>>>>>>>> and divide a community, no? It got Cryptome to post a notice on
>>>>>>>> their site
>>>>>>>> for a week or two, alerting people to the possibility that they'd
>>>>>>>> been
>>>>>>>> targeted by GCHQ by visiting Cryptome. Sounds like JTRIG-ish
>>>>>>>> paranoia, no?
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Agreed.  It could be an effective way to deter visitors to Cryptome,
>>>>>>> possibly to divert attention away from something posted there around the
>>>>>>> time this all began.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> -S
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> On Mon, Oct 12, 2015 at 9:10 AM, Georgi Guninski <
>>>>>>>> guninski at guninski.com>
>>>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> >
>>>>>>>> >
>>>>>>>> https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Joint_Threat_Research_Intelligence_Group&oldid=670966374
>>>>>>>> >
>>>>>>>> > Joint Threat Research Intelligence Group
>>>>>>>> >
>>>>>>>> > In June 2015, NSA files published by Glenn Greenwald revealed new
>>>>>>>> > details about JTRIG's work at covertly manipulating online
>>>>>>>> > communities.[6]
>>>>>>>> >
>>>>>>>> >
>>>>>>>> > On Mon, Oct 12, 2015 at 08:58:33AM -0400, Michael Best wrote:
>>>>>>>> > > >
>>>>>>>> > > > So assuming Snowden "borrowed" the slide from the NSA and he
>>>>>>>> didn't get
>>>>>>>> > >
>>>>>>>> > > owned, the slide is _REAL_.
>>>>>>>> > >
>>>>>>>> > >
>>>>>>>> > > I don't think I understand your mean, if we assuming it's real,
>>>>>>>> it
>>>>>>>> > follows
>>>>>>>> > > that it's real? I think I walked into a language barrier.
>>>>>>>> > >
>>>>>>>> > >
>>>>>>>> > > > Having in mind Snowden likely have large pile of slides, if
>>>>>>>> he got
>>>>>>>> > > > owned, likely all/the majority of them would likely be fake.
>>>>>>>> > > > Is this plausible?
>>>>>>>> > >
>>>>>>>> > >
>>>>>>>> > > Not necessarily, that's not how disinfo works a lot of the time.
>>>>>>>> > >
>>>>>>>> > > And did you missed the us-natsec trolling about the eu
>>>>>>>> appearing to
>>>>>>>> > > > trust Snowden's slides (though sometimes they can't prove it)?
>>>>>>>> > >
>>>>>>>> > >
>>>>>>>> > > No, there just wasn't much to respond to.
>>>>>>>> > >
>>>>>>>> > > On Mon, Oct 12, 2015 at 8:55 AM, Georgi Guninski <
>>>>>>>> guninski at guninski.com>
>>>>>>>> > > wrote:
>>>>>>>> > >
>>>>>>>> > > > So assuming Snowden "borrowed" the slide from the NSA and he
>>>>>>>> didn't get
>>>>>>>> > > > owned, the slide is _REAL_.
>>>>>>>> > > >
>>>>>>>> > > > Having in mind Snowden likely have large pile of slides, if
>>>>>>>> he got
>>>>>>>> > > > owned, likely all/the majority of them would likely be fake.
>>>>>>>> > > >
>>>>>>>> > > > Is this plausible?
>>>>>>>> > > >
>>>>>>>> > > > And did you missed the us-natsec trolling about the eu
>>>>>>>> appearing to
>>>>>>>> > > > trust Snowden's slides (though sometimes they can't prove it)?
>>>>>>>> > > >
>>>>>>>> > > >
>>>>>>>> > > > On Mon, Oct 12, 2015 at 08:22:37AM -0400, Michael Best wrote:
>>>>>>>> > > > > No but as I and others have noted, he didn't look at all of
>>>>>>>> the
>>>>>>>> > materials
>>>>>>>> > > > > he handed over to journalists and couldn't possibly be
>>>>>>>> expected to
>>>>>>>> > > > remember
>>>>>>>> > > > > all the ones he did see well enough to possibly be able to
>>>>>>>> ID this
>>>>>>>> > one as
>>>>>>>> > > > > altered or forged. He was only able to argue against the
>>>>>>>> other
>>>>>>>> > documents
>>>>>>>> > > > > because he had never been in touch with the outlet
>>>>>>>> releasing them,
>>>>>>>> > > > contrary
>>>>>>>> > > > > to their apparent belief.
>>>>>>>> > > > >
>>>>>>>> > > > > On Mon, Oct 12, 2015 at 8:19 AM, Georgi Guninski <
>>>>>>>> > guninski at guninski.com>
>>>>>>>> > > > > wrote:
>>>>>>>> > > > >
>>>>>>>> > > > > > On Mon, Oct 12, 2015 at 07:50:14AM -0400, Michael Best
>>>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>>> > > > > > > As I think I said in the other thread, less specific
>>>>>>>> charges that
>>>>>>>> > > > require
>>>>>>>> > > > > > > more specific proof and almost never leveled before a
>>>>>>>> trial is
>>>>>>>> > set,
>>>>>>>> > > > > > because
>>>>>>>> > > > > > > it forces the issue to be tried in the court of public
>>>>>>>> opinion,
>>>>>>>> > > > where a
>>>>>>>> > > > > > lot
>>>>>>>> > > > > > > of information can't be released lest it spoil an
>>>>>>>> investigation
>>>>>>>> > or
>>>>>>>> > > > > > > potential trial. There's also the fact that there'd be
>>>>>>>> little to
>>>>>>>> > > > gain at
>>>>>>>> > > > > > > this point by alleging that the slides are fake since
>>>>>>>> there
>>>>>>>> > would be
>>>>>>>> > > > few
>>>>>>>> > > > > > > people to believe it,
>>>>>>>> > > > > > >
>>>>>>>> > > > > > > "NSA hasn't said it's fake" doesn't seem like a strong
>>>>>>>> argument -
>>>>>>>> > > > > > > especially for a non-NSA slide. And again - *Snowden
>>>>>>>> himself* has
>>>>>>>> > > > accused
>>>>>>>> > > > > > > outlets of releasing slides attributed to him that *he
>>>>>>>> says he
>>>>>>>> > did
>>>>>>>> > > > not
>>>>>>>> > > > > > > provide*.
>>>>>>>> > > > > > >
>>>>>>>> > > > > > Likely the NSA would distribute fake slides just to
>>>>>>>> discredit
>>>>>>>> > Snowden.
>>>>>>>> > > > > >
>>>>>>>> > > > > > Does Snowden deny the authencity of this slide?
>>>>>>>> > > > > >
>>>>>>>> > > > > > This slide appeared in _too many_ news AFAICT to get
>>>>>>>> unnoticed.
>>>>>>>> > > > > >
>>>>>>>> > > >
>>>>>>>> >
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> --
>>>>> Twitter <https://twitter.com/tbiehn> | LinkedIn
>>>>> <http://www.linkedin.com/in/travisbiehn> | GitHub
>>>>> <http://github.com/tbiehn> | TravisBiehn.com
>>>>> <http://www.travisbiehn.com> | Google Plus
>>>>> <https://plus.google.com/+TravisBiehn>
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> --
>>> Twitter <https://twitter.com/tbiehn> | LinkedIn
>>> <http://www.linkedin.com/in/travisbiehn> | GitHub
>>> <http://github.com/tbiehn> | TravisBiehn.com
>>> <http://www.travisbiehn.com> | Google Plus
>>> <https://plus.google.com/+TravisBiehn>
>>>
>>
>>
>
>
> --
> Twitter <https://twitter.com/tbiehn> | LinkedIn
> <http://www.linkedin.com/in/travisbiehn> | GitHub
> <http://github.com/tbiehn> | TravisBiehn.com <http://www.travisbiehn.com> |
> Google Plus <https://plus.google.com/+TravisBiehn>
>
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From jya at pipeline.com  Mon Oct 12 07:59:34 2015
From: jya at pipeline.com (John Young)
Date: Mon, 12 Oct 2015 10:59:34 -0400
Subject: Hundreds of underhanded violations of computers and
  networks,
In-Reply-To: <561BC2FD.3080803@riseup.net>
References: <CANFTA0-DN1XRUNc=xhEw3X2r=6MsOn30f-uobhkq98zUJPSqkA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAJVRA1SZYodFH+ESF8zekqa+3Y9LjzWn3YHTwtnfCL8kbJK=Rw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CANFTA08UhvWyA8ssLH7cp8-HzkOyrsqdfNqG24oMeDOig+eeTA@mail.gmail.com>
 <20151012114534.GB2778@sivokote.iziade.m$>
 <E1Zlc7A-0000CQ-6f@elasmtp-masked.atl.sa.earthlink.net>
 <561BC2FD.3080803@riseup.net>
Message-ID: <E1ZleXM-0004TG-47@elasmtp-junco.atl.sa.earthlink.net>

Thanks for noting, how about this

http://www.amazon.com/s/ref=dp_byline_sr_book_1?ie=UTF8&text=EC-Council&search-alias=books&field-author=EC-Council&sort=relevancerank





From tbiehn at gmail.com  Mon Oct 12 08:00:33 2015
From: tbiehn at gmail.com (Travis Biehn)
Date: Mon, 12 Oct 2015 11:00:33 -0400
Subject: WHY make a fake GCHQ slide?
In-Reply-To: <20151012144035.28DEB68013D@frontend2.nyi.internal>
References: <CANFTA0-DN1XRUNc=xhEw3X2r=6MsOn30f-uobhkq98zUJPSqkA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAJVRA1SZYodFH+ESF8zekqa+3Y9LjzWn3YHTwtnfCL8kbJK=Rw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CANFTA08UhvWyA8ssLH7cp8-HzkOyrsqdfNqG24oMeDOig+eeTA@mail.gmail.com>
 <20151012114534.GB2778@sivokote.iziade.m$>
 <CANFTA0-H4=9ZBvhXO8yFeGs+WapYd2JaiYYioFacNS5u=djCNw@mail.gmail.com>
 <20151012121921.GC2778@sivokote.iziade.m$>
 <CANFTA0_gGhL-cZ3TwKLR5KQWNz57-dTqAPST9pS2FnzrO-FL5g@mail.gmail.com>
 <20151012125507.GD2778@sivokote.iziade.m$>
 <CANFTA08-nvMeetibdVNAn0r_OfQMQNDgaxpZ0qX96FjdC93C2g@mail.gmail.com>
 <20151012131038.GE2778@sivokote.iziade.m$>
 <CANFTA0-rPOOjcNoPQvgxehD52pYK-DHK7eDzSJ=o=xtS-Uue5A@mail.gmail.com>
 <20151012134617.495AE6800ED@frontend2.nyi.internal>
 <CANFTA09kcmcC4pHKVP1rtLtO_UQa8kTMjaaP5Hx23mk=F2okiA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAKtE3zd+JhOSTP+HkZ_40KZKDuN5XZZxfB9PyE5fiG_gxQL6_w@mail.gmail.com>
 <CANFTA0_htCCC37FLkizmE2rP5egPzvit9WZWX8h6eOyS7Ftx5A@mail.gmail.com>
 <20151012144035.28DEB68013D@frontend2.nyi.internal>
Message-ID: <CAKtE3zcct+2OzEL7fECPdaneT_gegLRAVyUxTH1-AhsxTV7sXQ@mail.gmail.com>

I'm not accusing Mike of misrepresenting his 'findings.' I think that's a
clear misread on his part.

-Travis

On Mon, Oct 12, 2015 at 10:40 AM, Shelley <shelley at misanthropia.org> wrote:

> I don't recall Mike ever saying the words, "this slide is a fake."
>
> What is being put forth for discussion and review is the following:
>
> With the log files that were included in the Cryptome archive,
>
> *anyone* with access to those files could have made that slide,
>
> because the data in the log files are from the same time period referred
> to in the slide.
>
> Why is this so hard to comprehend?  I feel like this list has branched off
> into some alternate timeline where logic and critical thinking do not exist!
>
> -S
>
>
> On October 12, 2015 7:21:16 AM Michael Best <themikebest at gmail.com> wrote:
>
> I never said I proved the slide is fake, Travis. In fact, I've said several
>> times that I've all done is prove that it could be fake. I said it in the
>> mailing list and in the original posts on my site.
>>
>> *Please* try to read what you're criticizing/arguing/responding to. I know
>>
>> it can be hard, or boring, or frustrating, but it's essential to a
>> dialogue
>> that you respond to what the other person/side/position said and not
>> confabulate something (as is human nature) or worse yet, build a strawman.
>>
>> Forcing your targets to *ahem* 'go dark' by instilling paranoia is exactly
>> > the opposite of what 'an IA / TLA' wants.
>>
>>
>> So categorical, monolithic and single minded! One might even say "overly
>> so" lol
>>
>> On Mon, Oct 12, 2015 at 10:02 AM, Travis Biehn <tbiehn at gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>> > Mike,
>> > You haven't proven that they were fake. Being able to counterfeit a
>> dollar
>> > bill does not all dollar bills counterfeit make. It's been one giant
>> navel
>> > gazing exercise.
>> >
>> > These disclosures only serve to further confirm opsec procedures long
>> > recommended and employed. This slide is an advertisement for Tor (which
>> > some hold to be a government honeypot, I do not.)
>> >
>> > Forcing your targets to *ahem* 'go dark' by instilling paranoia is
>> exactly
>> > the opposite of what 'an IA / TLA' wants.
>> >
>> > -Travis
>> >
>> > On Mon, Oct 12, 2015 at 9:55 AM, Michael Best <themikebest at gmail.com>
>> > wrote:
>> >
>> >> I think Snowden has become such a folk hero that some people may leap
>> to
>> >> defend what seems like an attack on him without taking as much time to
>> look
>> >> at the data/posts as they would otherwise.
>> >>
>> >> On Mon, Oct 12, 2015 at 9:46 AM, Shelley <shelley at misanthropia.org>
>> >> wrote:
>> >>
>> >>> On October 12, 2015 6:20:46 AM Michael Best <themikebest at gmail.com>
>> >>> wrote:
>> >>>
>> >>> I tried to list their motives under the GCHQ/UK motives, who would be
>> >>>> more
>> >>>> likely to fake the slide anyway and are the ones alleged of having
>> >>>> leaked
>> >>>> documents to the Independent on behalf of JTRIG, are a fairly likely
>> >>>> candidate.
>> >>>>
>> >>>
>> >>> Yes, you did list a number of possibilities.  It sometimes seems as
>> >>> though the same few people do not read and/or comprehend responses
>> before
>> >>> replying to them.
>> >>>
>> >>> Faking a slide like this would be a good way to inspire paranoia
>> >>>> and divide a community, no? It got Cryptome to post a notice on their
>> >>>> site
>> >>>> for a week or two, alerting people to the possibility that they'd
>> been
>> >>>> targeted by GCHQ by visiting Cryptome. Sounds like JTRIG-ish
>> paranoia,
>> >>>> no?
>> >>>>
>> >>>
>> >>> Agreed.  It could be an effective way to deter visitors to Cryptome,
>> >>> possibly to divert attention away from something posted there around
>> the
>> >>> time this all began.
>> >>>
>> >>> -S
>> >>>
>> >>>
>> >>>
>> >>>> On Mon, Oct 12, 2015 at 9:10 AM, Georgi Guninski <
>> guninski at guninski.com
>> >>>> >
>> >>>> wrote:
>> >>>>
>> >>>> >
>> >>>> >
>> >>>>
>> https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Joint_Threat_Research_Intelligence_Group&oldid=670966374
>> >>>> >
>> >>>> > Joint Threat Research Intelligence Group
>> >>>> >
>> >>>> > In June 2015, NSA files published by Glenn Greenwald revealed new
>> >>>> > details about JTRIG's work at covertly manipulating online
>> >>>> > communities.[6]
>> >>>> >
>> >>>> >
>> >>>> > On Mon, Oct 12, 2015 at 08:58:33AM -0400, Michael Best wrote:
>> >>>> > > >
>> >>>> > > > So assuming Snowden "borrowed" the slide from the NSA and he
>> >>>> didn't get
>> >>>> > >
>> >>>> > > owned, the slide is _REAL_.
>> >>>> > >
>> >>>> > >
>> >>>> > > I don't think I understand your mean, if we assuming it's real,
>> it
>> >>>> > follows
>> >>>> > > that it's real? I think I walked into a language barrier.
>> >>>> > >
>> >>>> > >
>> >>>> > > > Having in mind Snowden likely have large pile of slides, if he
>> got
>> >>>> > > > owned, likely all/the majority of them would likely be fake.
>> >>>> > > > Is this plausible?
>> >>>> > >
>> >>>> > >
>> >>>> > > Not necessarily, that's not how disinfo works a lot of the time.
>> >>>> > >
>> >>>> > > And did you missed the us-natsec trolling about the eu appearing
>> to
>> >>>> > > > trust Snowden's slides (though sometimes they can't prove it)?
>> >>>> > >
>> >>>> > >
>> >>>> > > No, there just wasn't much to respond to.
>> >>>> > >
>> >>>> > > On Mon, Oct 12, 2015 at 8:55 AM, Georgi Guninski <
>> >>>> guninski at guninski.com>
>> >>>> > > wrote:
>> >>>> > >
>> >>>> > > > So assuming Snowden "borrowed" the slide from the NSA and he
>> >>>> didn't get
>> >>>> > > > owned, the slide is _REAL_.
>> >>>> > > >
>> >>>> > > > Having in mind Snowden likely have large pile of slides, if he
>> got
>> >>>> > > > owned, likely all/the majority of them would likely be fake.
>> >>>> > > >
>> >>>> > > > Is this plausible?
>> >>>> > > >
>> >>>> > > > And did you missed the us-natsec trolling about the eu
>> appearing
>> >>>> to
>> >>>> > > > trust Snowden's slides (though sometimes they can't prove it)?
>> >>>> > > >
>> >>>> > > >
>> >>>> > > > On Mon, Oct 12, 2015 at 08:22:37AM -0400, Michael Best wrote:
>> >>>> > > > > No but as I and others have noted, he didn't look at all of
>> the
>> >>>> > materials
>> >>>> > > > > he handed over to journalists and couldn't possibly be
>> expected
>> >>>> to
>> >>>> > > > remember
>> >>>> > > > > all the ones he did see well enough to possibly be able to ID
>> >>>> this
>> >>>> > one as
>> >>>> > > > > altered or forged. He was only able to argue against the
>> other
>> >>>> > documents
>> >>>> > > > > because he had never been in touch with the outlet releasing
>> >>>> them,
>> >>>> > > > contrary
>> >>>> > > > > to their apparent belief.
>> >>>> > > > >
>> >>>> > > > > On Mon, Oct 12, 2015 at 8:19 AM, Georgi Guninski <
>> >>>> > guninski at guninski.com>
>> >>>> > > > > wrote:
>> >>>> > > > >
>> >>>> > > > > > On Mon, Oct 12, 2015 at 07:50:14AM -0400, Michael Best
>> wrote:
>> >>>> > > > > > > As I think I said in the other thread, less specific
>> >>>> charges that
>> >>>> > > > require
>> >>>> > > > > > > more specific proof and almost never leveled before a
>> trial
>> >>>> is
>> >>>> > set,
>> >>>> > > > > > because
>> >>>> > > > > > > it forces the issue to be tried in the court of public
>> >>>> opinion,
>> >>>> > > > where a
>> >>>> > > > > > lot
>> >>>> > > > > > > of information can't be released lest it spoil an
>> >>>> investigation
>> >>>> > or
>> >>>> > > > > > > potential trial. There's also the fact that there'd be
>> >>>> little to
>> >>>> > > > gain at
>> >>>> > > > > > > this point by alleging that the slides are fake since
>> there
>> >>>> > would be
>> >>>> > > > few
>> >>>> > > > > > > people to believe it,
>> >>>> > > > > > >
>> >>>> > > > > > > "NSA hasn't said it's fake" doesn't seem like a strong
>> >>>> argument -
>> >>>> > > > > > > especially for a non-NSA slide. And again - *Snowden
>> >>>> himself* has
>> >>>> > > > accused
>> >>>> > > > > > > outlets of releasing slides attributed to him that *he
>> says
>> >>>> he
>> >>>> > did
>> >>>> > > > not
>> >>>> > > > > > > provide*.
>> >>>> > > > > > >
>> >>>> > > > > > Likely the NSA would distribute fake slides just to
>> discredit
>> >>>> > Snowden.
>> >>>> > > > > >
>> >>>> > > > > > Does Snowden deny the authencity of this slide?
>> >>>> > > > > >
>> >>>> > > > > > This slide appeared in _too many_ news AFAICT to get
>> >>>> unnoticed.
>> >>>> > > > > >
>> >>>> > > >
>> >>>> >
>> >>>>
>> >>>
>> >>>
>> >>>
>> >>
>> >
>> >
>> > --
>> > Twitter <https://twitter.com/tbiehn> | LinkedIn
>> > <http://www.linkedin.com/in/travisbiehn> | GitHub
>> > <http://github.com/tbiehn> | TravisBiehn.com <
>> http://www.travisbiehn.com> |
>> > Google Plus <https://plus.google.com/+TravisBiehn>
>> >
>>
>
>
>


-- 
Twitter <https://twitter.com/tbiehn> | LinkedIn
<http://www.linkedin.com/in/travisbiehn> | GitHub <http://github.com/tbiehn>
| TravisBiehn.com <http://www.travisbiehn.com> | Google Plus
<https://plus.google.com/+TravisBiehn>
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From coderman at gmail.com  Mon Oct 12 11:12:13 2015
From: coderman at gmail.com (coderman)
Date: Mon, 12 Oct 2015 11:12:13 -0700
Subject: WHY might Coderman, tbiehn @ themikebest BE THE SAME PERSON
In-Reply-To: <CAKtE3zfqhn2ipg0ahw-W6ndgLdYZEhVPNAE-+NYtpx45CEZByw@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CANFTA08NiEq-DHnphNwbUtsGwRPi5c6bbyBQsan8g-HjkstDMw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAKtE3zfqhn2ipg0ahw-W6ndgLdYZEhVPNAE-+NYtpx45CEZByw@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAJVRA1TuYUZ2X6qnUO88mvv3v9pY61it-UYkjWprmava9jAhAw@mail.gmail.com>

On 10/12/15, Travis Biehn <tbiehn at gmail.com> wrote:
> There may be hope for you after all, Best.
>
>
> On Mon, Oct 12, 2015 at 1:28 PM, Michael Best <themikebest at gmail.com>
> wrote:...
>> I am the eggman
>> They are the eggmen
>> I am the walrus
>> Goo goo g' joob goo goo goo g' joob
>> Expert texpert choking smokers
>> Don't you think the joker laughs at you?
>> (Ho ho ho! He he he! Ha ha ha!)


all of the instances of the type of myself agree with this sentiment.

best regards,
  from all of us!




From tbiehn at gmail.com  Mon Oct 12 08:17:54 2015
From: tbiehn at gmail.com (Travis Biehn)
Date: Mon, 12 Oct 2015 11:17:54 -0400
Subject: WHY make a fake GCHQ slide?
In-Reply-To: <20151012151410.DA505680130@frontend2.nyi.internal>
References: <CANFTA0-DN1XRUNc=xhEw3X2r=6MsOn30f-uobhkq98zUJPSqkA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAJVRA1SZYodFH+ESF8zekqa+3Y9LjzWn3YHTwtnfCL8kbJK=Rw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CANFTA08UhvWyA8ssLH7cp8-HzkOyrsqdfNqG24oMeDOig+eeTA@mail.gmail.com>
 <20151012114534.GB2778@sivokote.iziade.m$>
 <CANFTA0-H4=9ZBvhXO8yFeGs+WapYd2JaiYYioFacNS5u=djCNw@mail.gmail.com>
 <20151012121921.GC2778@sivokote.iziade.m$>
 <CANFTA0_gGhL-cZ3TwKLR5KQWNz57-dTqAPST9pS2FnzrO-FL5g@mail.gmail.com>
 <20151012125507.GD2778@sivokote.iziade.m$>
 <CANFTA08-nvMeetibdVNAn0r_OfQMQNDgaxpZ0qX96FjdC93C2g@mail.gmail.com>
 <20151012131038.GE2778@sivokote.iziade.m$>
 <CANFTA0-rPOOjcNoPQvgxehD52pYK-DHK7eDzSJ=o=xtS-Uue5A@mail.gmail.com>
 <20151012134617.495AE6800ED@frontend2.nyi.internal>
 <CANFTA09kcmcC4pHKVP1rtLtO_UQa8kTMjaaP5Hx23mk=F2okiA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAKtE3zd+JhOSTP+HkZ_40KZKDuN5XZZxfB9PyE5fiG_gxQL6_w@mail.gmail.com>
 <CANFTA0_htCCC37FLkizmE2rP5egPzvit9WZWX8h6eOyS7Ftx5A@mail.gmail.com>
 <20151012144035.28DEB68013D@frontend2.nyi.internal>
 <CAKtE3zcct+2OzEL7fECPdaneT_gegLRAVyUxTH1-AhsxTV7sXQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <20151012151410.DA505680130@frontend2.nyi.internal>
Message-ID: <CAKtE3zfisA-MmkxnKqBW_yw=xJBEDd+kFdnnSc_MYyk7RqzgDQ@mail.gmail.com>

Shelley,
I'm pointing out that Mike cannot prove or disprove the legitimacy of the
GCHQ slides by pursuing the motivations for doing so. Not that he
misrepresented them as 'legitimate' rather my gripe is that he's trying to
dispose them through a fruitless exercise.

I also don't believe the consequences of establishing that one or more
slides in the disclosure are fictitious would be of any concern.

-Travis

On Mon, Oct 12, 2015 at 11:14 AM, Shelley <shelley at misanthropia.org> wrote:

>
>
> On October 12, 2015 8:00:55 AM Travis Biehn <tbiehn at gmail.com> wrote:
>
> I'm not accusing Mike of misrepresenting his 'findings.' I think that's a
>> clear misread on his part.
>>
>> -Travis
>>
>
> Really?
>
> > >> On Mon, Oct 12, 2015 at 10:02 AM, Travis Biehn <tbiehn at gmail.com>
> wrote:
>
>> >>
>> >> > Mike,
>> >> > You haven't proven that they were fake. Being able to counterfeit a
>> >> dollar
>> >> > bill does not all dollar bills counterfeit make. It's been one giant
>> >> navel
>> >> > gazing exercise.
>>
>
> You're contradicting yourself.
>
> What's frustrating is that I know you're not ignorant nor are you a troll
> (which can't be said for everyone inexplicably belaboring this issue.)
>
> *IF* this slide ends up being a fake, you really don't think that is
> significant?  You don't think it's a worthwhile pursuit to investigate
> whether the press is using slides attributed to Snowden without properly
> vetting them, or if there is intentional disinfo and FUD going on?
>
>
>
>> On Mon, Oct 12, 2015 at 10:40 AM, Shelley <shelley at misanthropia.org>
>> wrote:
>>
>> > I don't recall Mike ever saying the words, "this slide is a fake."
>> >
>> > What is being put forth for discussion and review is the following:
>> >
>> > With the log files that were included in the Cryptome archive,
>> >
>> > *anyone* with access to those files could have made that slide,
>> >
>> > because the data in the log files are from the same time period referred
>> > to in the slide.
>> >
>> > Why is this so hard to comprehend?  I feel like this list has branched
>> off
>> > into some alternate timeline where logic and critical thinking do not
>> exist!
>> >
>> > -S
>> >
>> >
>> > On October 12, 2015 7:21:16 AM Michael Best <themikebest at gmail.com>
>> wrote:
>> >
>> > I never said I proved the slide is fake, Travis. In fact, I've said
>> several
>> >> times that I've all done is prove that it could be fake. I said it in
>> the
>> >> mailing list and in the original posts on my site.
>> >>
>> >> *Please* try to read what you're criticizing/arguing/responding to. I
>> know
>> >>
>> >> it can be hard, or boring, or frustrating, but it's essential to a
>> >> dialogue
>> >> that you respond to what the other person/side/position said and not
>> >> confabulate something (as is human nature) or worse yet, build a
>> strawman.
>> >>
>> >> Forcing your targets to *ahem* 'go dark' by instilling paranoia is
>> exactly
>> >> > the opposite of what 'an IA / TLA' wants.
>> >>
>> >>
>> >> So categorical, monolithic and single minded! One might even say
>> "overly
>> >> so" lol
>> >>
>> >> On Mon, Oct 12, 2015 at 10:02 AM, Travis Biehn <tbiehn at gmail.com>
>> wrote:
>> >>
>> >> > Mike,
>> >> > You haven't proven that they were fake. Being able to counterfeit a
>> >> dollar
>> >> > bill does not all dollar bills counterfeit make. It's been one giant
>> >> navel
>> >> > gazing exercise.
>> >> >
>> >> > These disclosures only serve to further confirm opsec procedures long
>> >> > recommended and employed. This slide is an advertisement for Tor
>> (which
>> >> > some hold to be a government honeypot, I do not.)
>> >> >
>> >> > Forcing your targets to *ahem* 'go dark' by instilling paranoia is
>> >> exactly
>> >> > the opposite of what 'an IA / TLA' wants.
>> >> >
>> >> > -Travis
>> >> >
>> >> > On Mon, Oct 12, 2015 at 9:55 AM, Michael Best <themikebest at gmail.com
>> >
>> >> > wrote:
>> >> >
>> >> >> I think Snowden has become such a folk hero that some people may
>> leap
>> >> to
>> >> >> defend what seems like an attack on him without taking as much time
>> to
>> >> look
>> >> >> at the data/posts as they would otherwise.
>> >> >>
>> >> >> On Mon, Oct 12, 2015 at 9:46 AM, Shelley <shelley at misanthropia.org>
>> >> >> wrote:
>> >> >>
>> >> >>> On October 12, 2015 6:20:46 AM Michael Best <themikebest at gmail.com
>> >
>> >> >>> wrote:
>> >> >>>
>> >> >>> I tried to list their motives under the GCHQ/UK motives, who would
>> be
>> >> >>>> more
>> >> >>>> likely to fake the slide anyway and are the ones alleged of having
>> >> >>>> leaked
>> >> >>>> documents to the Independent on behalf of JTRIG, are a fairly
>> likely
>> >> >>>> candidate.
>> >> >>>>
>> >> >>>
>> >> >>> Yes, you did list a number of possibilities.  It sometimes seems as
>> >> >>> though the same few people do not read and/or comprehend responses
>> >> before
>> >> >>> replying to them.
>> >> >>>
>> >> >>> Faking a slide like this would be a good way to inspire paranoia
>> >> >>>> and divide a community, no? It got Cryptome to post a notice on
>> their
>> >> >>>> site
>> >> >>>> for a week or two, alerting people to the possibility that they'd
>> >> been
>> >> >>>> targeted by GCHQ by visiting Cryptome. Sounds like JTRIG-ish
>> >> paranoia,
>> >> >>>> no?
>> >> >>>>
>> >> >>>
>> >> >>> Agreed.  It could be an effective way to deter visitors to
>> Cryptome,
>> >> >>> possibly to divert attention away from something posted there
>> around
>> >> the
>> >> >>> time this all began.
>> >> >>>
>> >> >>> -S
>> >> >>>
>> >> >>>
>> >> >>>
>> >> >>>> On Mon, Oct 12, 2015 at 9:10 AM, Georgi Guninski <
>> >> guninski at guninski.com
>> >> >>>> >
>> >> >>>> wrote:
>> >> >>>>
>> >> >>>> >
>> >> >>>> >
>> >> >>>>
>> >>
>> https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Joint_Threat_Research_Intelligence_Group&oldid=670966374
>> >> >>>> >
>> >> >>>> > Joint Threat Research Intelligence Group
>> >> >>>> >
>> >> >>>> > In June 2015, NSA files published by Glenn Greenwald revealed
>> new
>> >> >>>> > details about JTRIG's work at covertly manipulating online
>> >> >>>> > communities.[6]
>> >> >>>> >
>> >> >>>> >
>> >> >>>> > On Mon, Oct 12, 2015 at 08:58:33AM -0400, Michael Best wrote:
>> >> >>>> > > >
>> >> >>>> > > > So assuming Snowden "borrowed" the slide from the NSA and he
>> >> >>>> didn't get
>> >> >>>> > >
>> >> >>>> > > owned, the slide is _REAL_.
>> >> >>>> > >
>> >> >>>> > >
>> >> >>>> > > I don't think I understand your mean, if we assuming it's
>> real,
>> >> it
>> >> >>>> > follows
>> >> >>>> > > that it's real? I think I walked into a language barrier.
>> >> >>>> > >
>> >> >>>> > >
>> >> >>>> > > > Having in mind Snowden likely have large pile of slides, if
>> he
>> >> got
>> >> >>>> > > > owned, likely all/the majority of them would likely be fake.
>> >> >>>> > > > Is this plausible?
>> >> >>>> > >
>> >> >>>> > >
>> >> >>>> > > Not necessarily, that's not how disinfo works a lot of the
>> time.
>> >> >>>> > >
>> >> >>>> > > And did you missed the us-natsec trolling about the eu
>> appearing
>> >> to
>> >> >>>> > > > trust Snowden's slides (though sometimes they can't prove
>> it)?
>> >> >>>> > >
>> >> >>>> > >
>> >> >>>> > > No, there just wasn't much to respond to.
>> >> >>>> > >
>> >> >>>> > > On Mon, Oct 12, 2015 at 8:55 AM, Georgi Guninski <
>> >> >>>> guninski at guninski.com>
>> >> >>>> > > wrote:
>> >> >>>> > >
>> >> >>>> > > > So assuming Snowden "borrowed" the slide from the NSA and he
>> >> >>>> didn't get
>> >> >>>> > > > owned, the slide is _REAL_.
>> >> >>>> > > >
>> >> >>>> > > > Having in mind Snowden likely have large pile of slides, if
>> he
>> >> got
>> >> >>>> > > > owned, likely all/the majority of them would likely be fake.
>> >> >>>> > > >
>> >> >>>> > > > Is this plausible?
>> >> >>>> > > >
>> >> >>>> > > > And did you missed the us-natsec trolling about the eu
>> >> appearing
>> >> >>>> to
>> >> >>>> > > > trust Snowden's slides (though sometimes they can't prove
>> it)?
>> >> >>>> > > >
>> >> >>>> > > >
>> >> >>>> > > > On Mon, Oct 12, 2015 at 08:22:37AM -0400, Michael Best
>> wrote:
>> >> >>>> > > > > No but as I and others have noted, he didn't look at all
>> of
>> >> the
>> >> >>>> > materials
>> >> >>>> > > > > he handed over to journalists and couldn't possibly be
>> >> expected
>> >> >>>> to
>> >> >>>> > > > remember
>> >> >>>> > > > > all the ones he did see well enough to possibly be able
>> to ID
>> >> >>>> this
>> >> >>>> > one as
>> >> >>>> > > > > altered or forged. He was only able to argue against the
>> >> other
>> >> >>>> > documents
>> >> >>>> > > > > because he had never been in touch with the outlet
>> releasing
>> >> >>>> them,
>> >> >>>> > > > contrary
>> >> >>>> > > > > to their apparent belief.
>> >> >>>> > > > >
>> >> >>>> > > > > On Mon, Oct 12, 2015 at 8:19 AM, Georgi Guninski <
>> >> >>>> > guninski at guninski.com>
>> >> >>>> > > > > wrote:
>> >> >>>> > > > >
>> >> >>>> > > > > > On Mon, Oct 12, 2015 at 07:50:14AM -0400, Michael Best
>> >> wrote:
>> >> >>>> > > > > > > As I think I said in the other thread, less specific
>> >> >>>> charges that
>> >> >>>> > > > require
>> >> >>>> > > > > > > more specific proof and almost never leveled before a
>> >> trial
>> >> >>>> is
>> >> >>>> > set,
>> >> >>>> > > > > > because
>> >> >>>> > > > > > > it forces the issue to be tried in the court of public
>> >> >>>> opinion,
>> >> >>>> > > > where a
>> >> >>>> > > > > > lot
>> >> >>>> > > > > > > of information can't be released lest it spoil an
>> >> >>>> investigation
>> >> >>>> > or
>> >> >>>> > > > > > > potential trial. There's also the fact that there'd be
>> >> >>>> little to
>> >> >>>> > > > gain at
>> >> >>>> > > > > > > this point by alleging that the slides are fake since
>> >> there
>> >> >>>> > would be
>> >> >>>> > > > few
>> >> >>>> > > > > > > people to believe it,
>> >> >>>> > > > > > >
>> >> >>>> > > > > > > "NSA hasn't said it's fake" doesn't seem like a strong
>> >> >>>> argument -
>> >> >>>> > > > > > > especially for a non-NSA slide. And again - *Snowden
>> >> >>>> himself* has
>> >> >>>> > > > accused
>> >> >>>> > > > > > > outlets of releasing slides attributed to him that *he
>> >> says
>> >> >>>> he
>> >> >>>> > did
>> >> >>>> > > > not
>> >> >>>> > > > > > > provide*.
>> >> >>>> > > > > > >
>> >> >>>> > > > > > Likely the NSA would distribute fake slides just to
>> >> discredit
>> >> >>>> > Snowden.
>> >> >>>> > > > > >
>> >> >>>> > > > > > Does Snowden deny the authencity of this slide?
>> >> >>>> > > > > >
>> >> >>>> > > > > > This slide appeared in _too many_ news AFAICT to get
>> >> >>>> unnoticed.
>> >> >>>> > > > > >
>> >> >>>> > > >
>> >> >>>> >
>> >> >>>>
>> >> >>>
>> >> >>>
>> >> >>>
>> >> >>
>> >> >
>> >> >
>> >> > --
>> >> > Twitter <https://twitter.com/tbiehn> | LinkedIn
>> >> > <http://www.linkedin.com/in/travisbiehn> | GitHub
>> >> > <http://github.com/tbiehn> | TravisBiehn.com <
>> >> http://www.travisbiehn.com> |
>> >> > Google Plus <https://plus.google.com/+TravisBiehn>
>> >> >
>> >>
>> >
>> >
>> >
>>
>>
>> --
>> Twitter <https://twitter.com/tbiehn> | LinkedIn
>> <http://www.linkedin.com/in/travisbiehn> | GitHub <
>> http://github.com/tbiehn>
>> | TravisBiehn.com <http://www.travisbiehn.com> | Google Plus
>> <https://plus.google.com/+TravisBiehn>
>>
>
>
>


-- 
Twitter <https://twitter.com/tbiehn> | LinkedIn
<http://www.linkedin.com/in/travisbiehn> | GitHub <http://github.com/tbiehn>
| TravisBiehn.com <http://www.travisbiehn.com> | Google Plus
<https://plus.google.com/+TravisBiehn>
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From themikebest at gmail.com  Mon Oct 12 08:28:48 2015
From: themikebest at gmail.com (Michael Best)
Date: Mon, 12 Oct 2015 11:28:48 -0400
Subject: Why cryptome sold web logs to their paying customers?
Message-ID: <CANFTA0_6ZWfE9Y4F0T1ywqhsJcT3XBo5JAw3dgeLjkMVeA3YFg@mail.gmail.com>

Yes, my vendetta is so complex and well schemed that I got John to say
the problem was the ISP, and I got coderman to agree that the ISP is
shite and he and others are wondering what will be the final straw. My
turning that statement into a question was just the logical extension
of what you've exposed as a clearly merciless attack against JYA.


*cue eyeroll*


As opposed to his accusations against me, (spy, disinfo, faked data,
stole data, "overstated" his "understated" admission, etc.) all I've
done is present data proving what John did, and only to get the
discussion on the GCHQ slide to move forward.


On 10/11/2015 07:27 PM, Michael Best wrote:
>* Any chance you'll look for a new ISP, John?
*>
And there you have it. Michale Best engaged in a vendetta for some
reason against JYA.

Sounds like a lovers quarrel.

RR
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From themikebest at gmail.com  Mon Oct 12 08:30:29 2015
From: themikebest at gmail.com (Michael Best)
Date: Mon, 12 Oct 2015 11:30:29 -0400
Subject: Why cryptome sold web logs to their paying customers?
Message-ID: <CANFTA09N4OAJh-TT_P9t1Yno6=vJM-y_Sr3oMCkM9VnJ+5qWwA@mail.gmail.com>

>
> *Razer* Rayzer at riseup.net
> <Rayzer%40riseup.net?Subject=Re%3A%20Why%20cryptome%20sold%20web%20logs%20to%20their%20paying%20customers%3F&In-Reply-To=%3C561BCDBE.6000403%40riseup.net%3E>


> *Mon Oct 12 11:11:58 EDT 2015*Sounds like a lovers quarrel.


Sad, but true. The first time John and I made love, it was tender and
sweet. These days, he hardly ever fingers me, and I can't remember the last
time he pinged my brains out. If I'm lucky, he'll trace my route once in a
blue moon (if you know what I mean)  ;)
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From themikebest at gmail.com  Mon Oct 12 08:33:13 2015
From: themikebest at gmail.com (Michael Best)
Date: Mon, 12 Oct 2015 11:33:13 -0400
Subject: Why cryptome sold web logs to their paying customers?
Message-ID: <CANFTA0-vK9-EbsSsyyq0ferP6BCHUoB92H+K-wz=bf4ieobgOA@mail.gmail.com>

You mean the Cryptome logs? John mailed them to me. And many, many other
people since 2013. According to him. (Not the many, many part.)


> *Razer* Rayzer at riseup.net
>
> <Rayzer%40riseup.net?Subject=Re%3A%20Why%20cryptome%20sold%20web%20logs%20to%20their%20paying%20customers%3F&In-Reply-To=%3C561BCCC2.6080501%40riseup.net%3E>
> *Mon Oct 12 11:07:46 EDT 2015*What you claim to be doing is starting an
> archive of dox you 'found' in
> the wild, (but no one seems to know exactly knows how they went wild)
> from a specific site, Cryptome, without the site owner's permission, at IA?


But if you wanna pull on that thread, someone could easily do the same to
JYA since he's reposted many pieces of copyrighted material on his site,
without reprint permission or proper copyright notice (which cuts off any
fair use claim). GASP Is that proof of this vendetta of which speak?

Not the one John has against me where he's smeared me and accused me of
faking disinfo, I mean the fake one I apparently have against him. (Though
I do admit to being a little bit bitter since he made so many bogus
accusations against me)
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From mag_foto at mac.com  Mon Oct 12 08:39:14 2015
From: mag_foto at mac.com (MARK GORE)
Date: Mon, 12 Oct 2015 11:39:14 -0400
Subject: Hundreds of underhanded violations of computers and networks,
In-Reply-To: <20151012144719.0921768013D@frontend2.nyi.internal>
References: <CANFTA0-DN1XRUNc=xhEw3X2r=6MsOn30f-uobhkq98zUJPSqkA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAJVRA1SZYodFH+ESF8zekqa+3Y9LjzWn3YHTwtnfCL8kbJK=Rw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CANFTA08UhvWyA8ssLH7cp8-HzkOyrsqdfNqG24oMeDOig+eeTA@mail.gmail.com>
 <20151012114534.GB2778@sivokote.iziade.m$>
 <E1Zlc7A-0000CQ-6f@elasmtp-masked.atl.sa.earthlink.net>
 <561BC2FD.3080803@riseup.net>
 <20151012144719.0921768013D@frontend2.nyi.internal>
Message-ID: <6860ACB1-05D5-44F9-A7DC-0CA34F274251@mac.com>

S thanks for the long URL
I can't wait to use it AND 
this is why I read the list.

As far as this thread goes; all of which I read, some dude is starting a pissing contest w/ our beloved JY, for whom I find one of the most treasured agitators.
Yeah Jonhs' fucking nuts, but one would have to be
In order publish online from mid 90's! 
Mike Troll Best pisses on list, comes back for a smell, tags it again, returns to take  a smell and off to Godwins'm Law. _Mg
Communicator...

> On Oct 12, 2015, at 10:47 AM, Shelley <shelley at misanthropia.org> wrote:
> 
>> On October 12, 2015 7:31:31 AM Razer <Rayzer at riseup.net> wrote:
>> 
>> The t.co link called by the long link text, which redirects TO the long
>> link, runs this script:
>> 
>> #
>> function(){return!!navigator.geolocation},history:function(){return!(!n.history||!n.history.pushState)},webworker:function(){return!!n.Worker},autofocus:function(){return"autofocus"in
>> #
>> 
>> RR
> 
> Thanks for calling attention to that.
> 
> That's why it's never a good idea to click on shortened links.  I always use something like longurl.org/expand.
> 
> -S
> 
> 
>> 
>> On 10/12/2015 05:23 AM, John Young wrote:
>> > Prepare for cyberwar career: 163 7-day free books on hundreds
>> > of underhanded violations of computers and networks,
>> >
>> > http://www. amazon.
>> > com/s/ref=dp_byline_sr_book_1?ie=UTF8&text=EC-Council&search-alias=books&field-author=EC-Council&sort=relevancerank…
> 
> 




From themikebest at gmail.com  Mon Oct 12 09:11:19 2015
From: themikebest at gmail.com (Michael Best)
Date: Mon, 12 Oct 2015 12:11:19 -0400
Subject: How to go about sharing (was: one of a dozen threads about Cryptome)
Message-ID: <CANFTA0_Lw1vS4by2jE+yP7uhMuVw-pW2OM-whzew-w1T0_Q9Dw@mail.gmail.com>

You deliberately took that out of context and cut out relevant text. Troll.

What I meant was not having to deal with the copyright complaints myself,
and you OH SO CONVENIENTLY left out the very next sentence " If it turns
out there's a violation I missed, the item gets taken down - not the entire
site or all the uploads. " Which referred to Cryptome getting taken down
over one document (which ultimately was allowed to stay up anyway)

> ------------------------------
> DUDE READ THEIR TOS! On 10/11/2015 07:11 PM, Michael Best wrote:
> >* and not worry about copyright*
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From coderman at gmail.com  Mon Oct 12 12:24:04 2015
From: coderman at gmail.com (coderman)
Date: Mon, 12 Oct 2015 12:24:04 -0700
Subject: high stakes games :)
In-Reply-To: <CAGRDzQUzcCZTgbL82d+8L0Yka8aVmX6cVoURmggcyzYsgREW3Q@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAJVRA1RJmNnGDt8q2Z1BuS4aSXw64-_+4JL_wdmfWwuwQ0LPwQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAGRDzQUzcCZTgbL82d+8L0Yka8aVmX6cVoURmggcyzYsgREW3Q@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAJVRA1RR8s5pQLHV99+DV8_YDV_nPZct1vpWaE0uZerse5-X4Q@mail.gmail.com>

On 10/12/15, Cari Machet <carimachet at gmail.com> wrote:
> ...
> Nice infos here though codermans

it's still funny, so many years later ;P

---
"Re: the real stuxnet authors plz stand up"

h0 h0 h0!

this gift keeps on giving...

no more for me thanks.
 -- http://seclists.org/fulldisclosure/2010/Sep/361




From guninski at guninski.com  Mon Oct 12 02:31:44 2015
From: guninski at guninski.com (Georgi Guninski)
Date: Mon, 12 Oct 2015 12:31:44 +0300
Subject: WHY make a fake GCHQ slide?
In-Reply-To: <CAHWD2rLuKm9_ha7LwRS4RQzkbCt6DfdMi8JDfDUGmfOqKx2wCw@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CANFTA0-DN1XRUNc=xhEw3X2r=6MsOn30f-uobhkq98zUJPSqkA@mail.gmail.com>
 <20151011072919.GC2610@sivokote.iziade.m$>
 <CAHWD2rLuKm9_ha7LwRS4RQzkbCt6DfdMi8JDfDUGmfOqKx2wCw@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <20151012093144.GA2778@sivokote.iziade.m$>

On Sun, Oct 11, 2015 at 01:25:59PM +0200, Lodewijk andré de la porte wrote:
> German court couldn't have been able to determine the slides real,
> therefore must treat them false for the purpose of proof. Doesn't mean
> they're actually fake, it's just not certain enough that they're real.

Indeed, not finding a rootkit doesn't necessarily mean there is none.

IIRC recently read (probably from Snownden) that LEAs can remotely
control smart?phones with SMSs.

In addition even if they find rootkit on a phone, attributing it to NSA
is highly non-trivial.




From themikebest at gmail.com  Mon Oct 12 09:31:59 2015
From: themikebest at gmail.com (Michael Best)
Date: Mon, 12 Oct 2015 12:31:59 -0400
Subject: [cryptome] Re: NatSecGeek
Message-ID: <CANFTA0-v_5zjuZ=OThOXYHO_zMiVff2-9xhVoF7ByE+wkMUhDg@mail.gmail.com>

>
> His use of a sig with all his social networks is one of the reasons I
> earlier said Best has some income-related motive, and that he's most
> likely dealing in 'future rewards'.


"All his social networks" being twitter? I have a LinkedIn somewhere, but I
don't publicize that.

I'm not sure what "sig" you mean. I don't have an email signature. On
that1archive.neocities.org ? Yeah, I have my contact information posted.

Of course, JYA also has his email and twitter posted there, but no
accusations about a profit based motive against him. No double standard
there.
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From coderman at gmail.com  Mon Oct 12 12:32:45 2015
From: coderman at gmail.com (coderman)
Date: Mon, 12 Oct 2015 12:32:45 -0700
Subject: Fwd: stuxmemories
Message-ID: <CAJVRA1RYV=A1L51s8XmQ3siA2rDCq2o3VZ4L1ykZegPjDwhwzw@mail.gmail.com>

---------- Forwarded message ----------
From: coderman <coderman at gmail.com>

Ok, fuck you google!

To decrypt:
gpg -o stuxdata.tgz --decrypt stuxdata.bin

password: secret
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From coderman at gmail.com  Mon Oct 12 12:41:46 2015
From: coderman at gmail.com (coderman)
Date: Mon, 12 Oct 2015 12:41:46 -0700
Subject: stuxmemories
In-Reply-To: <CAJVRA1RYV=A1L51s8XmQ3siA2rDCq2o3VZ4L1ykZegPjDwhwzw@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAJVRA1RYV=A1L51s8XmQ3siA2rDCq2o3VZ4L1ykZegPjDwhwzw@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAJVRA1TiQsMZOcU=665eN7stT9fvKAs7EUWcgD5PU4NLZA=DvA@mail.gmail.com>

disassembly at:
 https://peertech.org/files/stuxnet-stub.asm.gz
 2510db5adbb9ec727f2c600f0131bf31d2a8dffc8e85427a6c4907d8c2312ac6


On 10/12/15, coderman <coderman at gmail.com> wrote:
> ---------- Forwarded message ----------
> From: coderman <coderman at gmail.com>
>
> Ok, fuck you google!
>
> To decrypt:
> gpg -o stuxdata.tgz --decrypt stuxdata.bin
>
> password: secret
>




From themikebest at gmail.com  Mon Oct 12 09:45:32 2015
From: themikebest at gmail.com (Michael Best)
Date: Mon, 12 Oct 2015 12:45:32 -0400
Subject: How to go about sharing (was: one of a dozen threads about
 Cryptome)
In-Reply-To: <561BE22E.9030204@riseup.net>
References: <CANFTA0_Lw1vS4by2jE+yP7uhMuVw-pW2OM-whzew-w1T0_Q9Dw@mail.gmail.com>
 <561BE22E.9030204@riseup.net>
Message-ID: <CANFTA09E54jkvFcdytyv--ut18=OxPwYaXh_oh5BUodfTBw2xg@mail.gmail.com>

IA takes down specific items, not entire accounts, Feel free to file a
complaint, but if you start gunning for my archives you'll be the one
accused of having a vendetta not me. All I did was try to get the GCHQ
slide up for discussion, JOHN inflated the issue by trolling me accusing me
of faking the data. *The leak never had to be disclosed if he had verified
the redacted data and let me tell him what the problem was, but NO.* JOHN
couldn't let that happen. That wasn't me.

But again, if you wanna talk about copyright violations, shall we turn our
eye to Cryptome.org which is full of unlicensed reprints that DO NOT fall
under fair use, since they don't have a disclaimer or copyright notice, nor
did they seek permission to reprint it? *AND they accept monetary donations
for copies of the files?* NO - because NONE OF THAT IS THE POINT. But like
the trolls and disinfo artists you keep complaining about, you keep
changing the subject from what matters - the GCHQ slide and whether or not
it can be authenticated or discounted.

On Mon, Oct 12, 2015 at 12:39 PM, Razer <Rayzer at riseup.net> wrote:

>
>
> On 10/12/2015 09:11 AM, Michael Best wrote:
>
> You deliberately took that out of context and cut out relevant text.
> Troll.
>
> What I meant was not having to deal with the copyright complaints myself,
> and you OH SO CONVENIENTLY left out the very next sentence " If it turns
> out there's a violation I missed, the item gets taken down - not the entire
> site or all the uploads. " Which referred to Cryptome getting taken down
> over one document (which ultimately was allowed to stay up anyway)
>
>> ------------------------------
>> DUDE READ THEIR TOS! On 10/11/2015 07:11 PM, Michael Best wrote:
>> >* and not worry about copyright*
>
>
>
> It read about the same with the rest of the text, and since this whole
> thing is such an incredible waste of bandwidth, I cut to the chase. And no,
> if you infringe copyright IA takes your WHOLE THING DOWN because they don't
> want the have to go through it for more, and cancel your account. Ofc, you
> could start another...
>
> IA is continually under a lot of pressure about copyright material
> appearing onsite, and I say you're a threat to a very valuable public
> resource. You should read my recent comment in one of the dozen or so
> threads you've generated, about being the bird dog in the snipe hunt and
> you never look to see who the 'hunters' are, and you're ARROGANT about it,
> and your whole discussion of JYA's logs is just one long
> look-at-what-I've-done-bc-xxx-did-this troll.
>
> RR
>
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From shelley at misanthropia.org  Mon Oct 12 12:51:12 2015
From: shelley at misanthropia.org (Shelley)
Date: Mon, 12 Oct 2015 12:51:12 -0700
Subject: stuxmemories
In-Reply-To: <CAJVRA1TiQsMZOcU=665eN7stT9fvKAs7EUWcgD5PU4NLZA=DvA@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAJVRA1RYV=A1L51s8XmQ3siA2rDCq2o3VZ4L1ykZegPjDwhwzw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAJVRA1TiQsMZOcU=665eN7stT9fvKAs7EUWcgD5PU4NLZA=DvA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <20151012195056.22B806801D2@frontend2.nyi.internal>

On October 12, 2015 12:47:46 PM coderman <coderman at gmail.com> wrote:

> disassembly at:
>  https://peertech.org/files/stuxnet-stub.asm.gz
>  2510db5adbb9ec727f2c600f0131bf31d2a8dffc8e85427a6c4907d8c2312ac6
>
>
> On 10/12/15, coderman <coderman at gmail.com> wrote:
> > ---------- Forwarded message ----------
> > From: coderman <coderman at gmail.com>
> >
> > Ok, fuck you google!
> >
> > To decrypt:
> > gpg -o stuxdata.tgz --decrypt stuxdata.bin
> >
> > password: secret
> >

First I lol'd @ secret, then I wondered if you're looking to get one of 
your very own "take a break" Borg cubes ;)

Collect the whole set, gotta get'em all!





From alfiej at fastmail.fm  Sun Oct 11 18:53:53 2015
From: alfiej at fastmail.fm (Alfie John)
Date: Mon, 12 Oct 2015 12:53:53 +1100
Subject: Why cryptome sold web logs to their paying customers?
In-Reply-To: <CAKtE3zdpESCig4sRatFsHDFrrM35eXkm30qBTr_NNQ5PdiK1-g@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CANFTA09pppGsfA85-L_+-nOt5uK1Ov2G=tWf7MCYab9YrrsNoA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAJVRA1RDiSwYi=udi-ZYnc5f0TL32wGt4Lqmf1jxog42JJeBmQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <CANFTA09N1RxaE1e05T2U64-KmBQvAhD0h8bWeLZoDnHPOwkVtQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAKtE3zdpESCig4sRatFsHDFrrM35eXkm30qBTr_NNQ5PdiK1-g@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <1444614833.880422.407458481.7BC2017D@webmail.messagingengine.com>

On Mon, Oct 12, 2015, at 12:32 PM, Travis Biehn wrote:
> You can start by re-posting the leaked traffic logs... (Editorial
> discretion is frowned upon amongst the idealists.)
>
> Maybe set up an onion, host on i2p, freenet (hehehe), ethereum, the
> blockchain, torrents. Spread it far and wide, set up a PKI, set up a
> WOT, keep it all offline.
>
> If you're a real masochist you'll host the docs on some crazy
> 'website' with no indirection protecting you from legal/illegal/TLA
> action. Keep the info off the dark web, off the deep web and in the
> search indexes.
>
> Warrant canary (which won't work), encryption (you won't be safe) and
> signatures (secrets will be stolen.)
>
> If you think you can survive as well as JYA, Deb & fare better than
> Assange, go for it. Be prepared.
>
> It doesn't pay very well. You'd have to be crazy to do this.

Or you can be like TheCthulhu and run your own data centre with
good lawyers.

Alfie

-- 
  Alfie John
  alfiej at fastmail.fm




From tbiehn at gmail.com  Mon Oct 12 10:11:39 2015
From: tbiehn at gmail.com (Travis Biehn)
Date: Mon, 12 Oct 2015 13:11:39 -0400
Subject: WHY might Coderman, tbiehn @ themikebest BE THE SAME PERSON
Message-ID: <CAKtE3zfycyuVXnKLBF_T_3NxSWxK2davvPaDchROzcV7-2svCA@mail.gmail.com>

Evidence:
They all use gmail.com.
Gmail.com allows free account creation.

They COULD all be the same person. Lets prove this out once and for all.

Discuss.

-Travis

-- 
Twitter <https://twitter.com/tbiehn> | LinkedIn
<http://www.linkedin.com/in/travisbiehn> | GitHub <http://github.com/tbiehn>
| TravisBiehn.com <http://www.travisbiehn.com> | Google Plus
<https://plus.google.com/+TravisBiehn>
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From themikebest at gmail.com  Mon Oct 12 10:28:22 2015
From: themikebest at gmail.com (Michael Best)
Date: Mon, 12 Oct 2015 13:28:22 -0400
Subject: WHY might Coderman, tbiehn @ themikebest BE THE SAME PERSON
Message-ID: <CANFTA08NiEq-DHnphNwbUtsGwRPi5c6bbyBQsan8g-HjkstDMw@mail.gmail.com>

You're an idiot. JOHN YOUNG and I are the same person. coderman is some
other guy completely. OR IS HE?

I am he
As he is me
And we are all together
I am the eggman
They are the eggmen
I am the walrus
Goo goo g' joob goo goo goo g' joob
Expert texpert choking smokers
Don't you think the joker laughs at you?
(Ho ho ho! He he he! Ha ha ha!)
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From tbiehn at gmail.com  Mon Oct 12 10:36:56 2015
From: tbiehn at gmail.com (Travis Biehn)
Date: Mon, 12 Oct 2015 13:36:56 -0400
Subject: WHY might Coderman, tbiehn @ themikebest BE THE SAME PERSON
In-Reply-To: <CANFTA08NiEq-DHnphNwbUtsGwRPi5c6bbyBQsan8g-HjkstDMw@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CANFTA08NiEq-DHnphNwbUtsGwRPi5c6bbyBQsan8g-HjkstDMw@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAKtE3zfqhn2ipg0ahw-W6ndgLdYZEhVPNAE-+NYtpx45CEZByw@mail.gmail.com>

There may be hope for you after all, Best.

-Travis

On Mon, Oct 12, 2015 at 1:28 PM, Michael Best <themikebest at gmail.com> wrote:

> You're an idiot. JOHN YOUNG and I are the same person. coderman is some
> other guy completely. OR IS HE?
>
> I am he
> As he is me
> And we are all together
> I am the eggman
> They are the eggmen
> I am the walrus
> Goo goo g' joob goo goo goo g' joob
> Expert texpert choking smokers
> Don't you think the joker laughs at you?
> (Ho ho ho! He he he! Ha ha ha!)
>



-- 
Twitter <https://twitter.com/tbiehn> | LinkedIn
<http://www.linkedin.com/in/travisbiehn> | GitHub <http://github.com/tbiehn>
| TravisBiehn.com <http://www.travisbiehn.com> | Google Plus
<https://plus.google.com/+TravisBiehn>
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From coderman at gmail.com  Mon Oct 12 13:50:05 2015
From: coderman at gmail.com (coderman)
Date: Mon, 12 Oct 2015 13:50:05 -0700
Subject: stuxmemories
In-Reply-To: <trinity-92d1dc2f-5ec3-470f-a93c-fd99f5b46355-1444682068882@3capp-mailcom-lxa13>
References: <CAJVRA1RYV=A1L51s8XmQ3siA2rDCq2o3VZ4L1ykZegPjDwhwzw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAJVRA1TiQsMZOcU=665eN7stT9fvKAs7EUWcgD5PU4NLZA=DvA@mail.gmail.com>
 <20151012195056.22B806801D2@frontend2.nyi.internal>
 <trinity-92d1dc2f-5ec3-470f-a93c-fd99f5b46355-1444682068882@3capp-mailcom-lxa13>
Message-ID: <CAJVRA1Tk5cSQJj=4=USihu1M5+j5p-bO+Zv9LJ3MOBko6rOxBQ@mail.gmail.com>

On 10/12/15, Dr. J Feinstein <drjfeinstein at mail.com> wrote:
>
> I dont get it

retro-reflector collection is an odd hobby, for sure...


best regards,




From juan.g71 at gmail.com  Mon Oct 12 09:56:07 2015
From: juan.g71 at gmail.com (Juan)
Date: Mon, 12 Oct 2015 13:56:07 -0300
Subject: WHY make a fake GCHQ slide?
In-Reply-To: <CANFTA08UhvWyA8ssLH7cp8-HzkOyrsqdfNqG24oMeDOig+eeTA@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CANFTA0-DN1XRUNc=xhEw3X2r=6MsOn30f-uobhkq98zUJPSqkA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAJVRA1SZYodFH+ESF8zekqa+3Y9LjzWn3YHTwtnfCL8kbJK=Rw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CANFTA08UhvWyA8ssLH7cp8-HzkOyrsqdfNqG24oMeDOig+eeTA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <561be4cc.aa18370a.98ea1.ffffd087@mx.google.com>

On Mon, 12 Oct 2015 07:24:00 -0400
Michael Best <themikebest at gmail.com> wrote:

> Can anyone poke a hole in my logic for any of the possibilities,

	
	Given this article...

	https://theintercept.com/2015/09/25/gchq-radio-porn-spies-track-web-users-online-identities/

	...I don't really see what's the point of discussing a mostly
	irrelevant detail like 'your' slide. 

	Plus, the information that the slide conveys : "natsec scumbags
	spy on cryptome & its visitors" is correct. Hell, apparently
	they spy on a substantial portion of the planet's inhabitants...










From themikebest at gmail.com  Mon Oct 12 11:34:56 2015
From: themikebest at gmail.com (Michael Best)
Date: Mon, 12 Oct 2015 14:34:56 -0400
Subject: Rabblerabblerabble! Enough rabble rousing about rabble rousing AKA
 STOP JTRIGing YOURSELVES
Message-ID: <CANFTA0-UdEs0EQ9h30zXsTtio5uGMznFZvNMHkU+Vr1s4nB8vQ@mail.gmail.com>

Whatever you think of my motives, what's done is done and all that's left
is to discuss the data and the slide. If ya'll wanna keep talking about me
instead, I'm flattered that you think I'm so interesting but someone should
probably setup a separate list for that. It's drowning out any chance for
real discussion in the list, not just about the GCHQ slide but about
anything else.

Put those big beautiful brains of yours to work on the slide and other
cypherpunk issues - but *I* am not one of them, AFAIK.

I have a few more people I want to hear from on the slide issue, but I
welcome actual constructive criticism, comments or technical input, whether
for or against. Stay away from sentiments like "we can't figure that out!"
You're better than that, I think, and when you reach your limits you know
which experts to ping.

Let's get away from witch hunts and troll bait.

--Mike, who is not a troll but actually Shrek's less funny cousin
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From guninski at guninski.com  Mon Oct 12 04:45:34 2015
From: guninski at guninski.com (Georgi Guninski)
Date: Mon, 12 Oct 2015 14:45:34 +0300
Subject: WHY make a fake GCHQ slide?
In-Reply-To: <CANFTA08UhvWyA8ssLH7cp8-HzkOyrsqdfNqG24oMeDOig+eeTA@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CANFTA0-DN1XRUNc=xhEw3X2r=6MsOn30f-uobhkq98zUJPSqkA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAJVRA1SZYodFH+ESF8zekqa+3Y9LjzWn3YHTwtnfCL8kbJK=Rw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CANFTA08UhvWyA8ssLH7cp8-HzkOyrsqdfNqG24oMeDOig+eeTA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <20151012114534.GB2778@sivokote.iziade.m$>

On Mon, Oct 12, 2015 at 07:24:00AM -0400, Michael Best wrote:
> Can anyone poke a hole in my logic for any of the possibilities, or come up

IMHO this is a potential hole:

Assuming Snowden got the slide from the NSA, he didn't fake it and his
slides weren't modified by others AFTER he got them, some of your
options don't make any sense.

I don't know if these are sound assumptions, but Snowden appears widely
believed by non-us-natsec crowd (which call him a "traitor").

As pointed out in another thread, the usa wants to torture Snowden for
alleged crimes like "stealing classified stuff", NOT for distributing
fakes.

There appears to be quarrel between the usa and eu about surveillance:

http://www.theregister.co.uk/2015/10/12/digi_commish_oettinger_admits_eu_should_have_done_more_in_reaction_to_nsa_spying/
EU Digital Commish: Ja, we should have done more about NSA spying

I wish you call the EU "fake believers".




From guninski at guninski.com  Mon Oct 12 05:19:21 2015
From: guninski at guninski.com (Georgi Guninski)
Date: Mon, 12 Oct 2015 15:19:21 +0300
Subject: WHY make a fake GCHQ slide?
In-Reply-To: <CANFTA0-H4=9ZBvhXO8yFeGs+WapYd2JaiYYioFacNS5u=djCNw@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CANFTA0-DN1XRUNc=xhEw3X2r=6MsOn30f-uobhkq98zUJPSqkA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAJVRA1SZYodFH+ESF8zekqa+3Y9LjzWn3YHTwtnfCL8kbJK=Rw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CANFTA08UhvWyA8ssLH7cp8-HzkOyrsqdfNqG24oMeDOig+eeTA@mail.gmail.com>
 <20151012114534.GB2778@sivokote.iziade.m$>
 <CANFTA0-H4=9ZBvhXO8yFeGs+WapYd2JaiYYioFacNS5u=djCNw@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <20151012121921.GC2778@sivokote.iziade.m$>

On Mon, Oct 12, 2015 at 07:50:14AM -0400, Michael Best wrote:
> As I think I said in the other thread, less specific charges that require
> more specific proof and almost never leveled before a trial is set, because
> it forces the issue to be tried in the court of public opinion, where a lot
> of information can't be released lest it spoil an investigation or
> potential trial. There's also the fact that there'd be little to gain at
> this point by alleging that the slides are fake since there would be few
> people to believe it,
> 
> "NSA hasn't said it's fake" doesn't seem like a strong argument -
> especially for a non-NSA slide. And again - *Snowden himself* has accused
> outlets of releasing slides attributed to him that *he says he did not
> provide*.
> 
Likely the NSA would distribute fake slides just to discredit Snowden.

Does Snowden deny the authencity of this slide?

This slide appeared in _too many_ news AFAICT to get unnoticed.




From oshwm at openmailbox.org  Mon Oct 12 07:40:00 2015
From: oshwm at openmailbox.org (Oshwm)
Date: Mon, 12 Oct 2015 15:40:00 +0100
Subject: Trying to invoke Godwin's law for some threads on this so called
 list
In-Reply-To: <CANFTA09JD_u-jUs2Gg+RAbR7ken+i9wusaqRR3BO7Tn1uhRusQ@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CANFTA09JD_u-jUs2Gg+RAbR7ken+i9wusaqRR3BO7Tn1uhRusQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <5242FFE9-B8D2-4672-AED2-1FCB57A0D125@openmailbox.org>

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA512

Either that or everyone's just getting bored :P

On 12 October 2015 15:32:28 BST, Michael Best <themikebest at gmail.com> wrote:
>I assume you mean because of all the anti-semitic remarks, shoah
>denying,
>racist remarks and talk of racial cleansing that hasn't been going on?
>
>Different opinion=wrong-bad-evil-hate-suspect-accuse
>
>I guess there has been *some* intolerance and personal attacks,
>though....
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From guninski at guninski.com  Mon Oct 12 05:55:07 2015
From: guninski at guninski.com (Georgi Guninski)
Date: Mon, 12 Oct 2015 15:55:07 +0300
Subject: WHY make a fake GCHQ slide?
In-Reply-To: <CANFTA0_gGhL-cZ3TwKLR5KQWNz57-dTqAPST9pS2FnzrO-FL5g@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CANFTA0-DN1XRUNc=xhEw3X2r=6MsOn30f-uobhkq98zUJPSqkA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAJVRA1SZYodFH+ESF8zekqa+3Y9LjzWn3YHTwtnfCL8kbJK=Rw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CANFTA08UhvWyA8ssLH7cp8-HzkOyrsqdfNqG24oMeDOig+eeTA@mail.gmail.com>
 <20151012114534.GB2778@sivokote.iziade.m$>
 <CANFTA0-H4=9ZBvhXO8yFeGs+WapYd2JaiYYioFacNS5u=djCNw@mail.gmail.com>
 <20151012121921.GC2778@sivokote.iziade.m$>
 <CANFTA0_gGhL-cZ3TwKLR5KQWNz57-dTqAPST9pS2FnzrO-FL5g@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <20151012125507.GD2778@sivokote.iziade.m$>

So assuming Snowden "borrowed" the slide from the NSA and he didn't get
owned, the slide is _REAL_.

Having in mind Snowden likely have large pile of slides, if he got
owned, likely all/the majority of them would likely be fake.

Is this plausible?

And did you missed the us-natsec trolling about the eu appearing to
trust Snowden's slides (though sometimes they can't prove it)?


On Mon, Oct 12, 2015 at 08:22:37AM -0400, Michael Best wrote:
> No but as I and others have noted, he didn't look at all of the materials
> he handed over to journalists and couldn't possibly be expected to remember
> all the ones he did see well enough to possibly be able to ID this one as
> altered or forged. He was only able to argue against the other documents
> because he had never been in touch with the outlet releasing them, contrary
> to their apparent belief.
> 
> On Mon, Oct 12, 2015 at 8:19 AM, Georgi Guninski <guninski at guninski.com>
> wrote:
> 
> > On Mon, Oct 12, 2015 at 07:50:14AM -0400, Michael Best wrote:
> > > As I think I said in the other thread, less specific charges that require
> > > more specific proof and almost never leveled before a trial is set,
> > because
> > > it forces the issue to be tried in the court of public opinion, where a
> > lot
> > > of information can't be released lest it spoil an investigation or
> > > potential trial. There's also the fact that there'd be little to gain at
> > > this point by alleging that the slides are fake since there would be few
> > > people to believe it,
> > >
> > > "NSA hasn't said it's fake" doesn't seem like a strong argument -
> > > especially for a non-NSA slide. And again - *Snowden himself* has accused
> > > outlets of releasing slides attributed to him that *he says he did not
> > > provide*.
> > >
> > Likely the NSA would distribute fake slides just to discredit Snowden.
> >
> > Does Snowden deny the authencity of this slide?
> >
> > This slide appeared in _too many_ news AFAICT to get unnoticed.
> >




From guninski at guninski.com  Mon Oct 12 06:10:38 2015
From: guninski at guninski.com (Georgi Guninski)
Date: Mon, 12 Oct 2015 16:10:38 +0300
Subject: WHY make a fake GCHQ slide?
In-Reply-To: <CANFTA08-nvMeetibdVNAn0r_OfQMQNDgaxpZ0qX96FjdC93C2g@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CANFTA0-DN1XRUNc=xhEw3X2r=6MsOn30f-uobhkq98zUJPSqkA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAJVRA1SZYodFH+ESF8zekqa+3Y9LjzWn3YHTwtnfCL8kbJK=Rw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CANFTA08UhvWyA8ssLH7cp8-HzkOyrsqdfNqG24oMeDOig+eeTA@mail.gmail.com>
 <20151012114534.GB2778@sivokote.iziade.m$>
 <CANFTA0-H4=9ZBvhXO8yFeGs+WapYd2JaiYYioFacNS5u=djCNw@mail.gmail.com>
 <20151012121921.GC2778@sivokote.iziade.m$>
 <CANFTA0_gGhL-cZ3TwKLR5KQWNz57-dTqAPST9pS2FnzrO-FL5g@mail.gmail.com>
 <20151012125507.GD2778@sivokote.iziade.m$>
 <CANFTA08-nvMeetibdVNAn0r_OfQMQNDgaxpZ0qX96FjdC93C2g@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <20151012131038.GE2778@sivokote.iziade.m$>

https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Joint_Threat_Research_Intelligence_Group&oldid=670966374

Joint Threat Research Intelligence Group

In June 2015, NSA files published by Glenn Greenwald revealed new
details about JTRIG's work at covertly manipulating online
communities.[6]


On Mon, Oct 12, 2015 at 08:58:33AM -0400, Michael Best wrote:
> >
> > So assuming Snowden "borrowed" the slide from the NSA and he didn't get
> 
> owned, the slide is _REAL_.
> 
> 
> I don't think I understand your mean, if we assuming it's real, it follows
> that it's real? I think I walked into a language barrier.
> 
> 
> > Having in mind Snowden likely have large pile of slides, if he got
> > owned, likely all/the majority of them would likely be fake.
> > Is this plausible?
> 
> 
> Not necessarily, that's not how disinfo works a lot of the time.
> 
> And did you missed the us-natsec trolling about the eu appearing to
> > trust Snowden's slides (though sometimes they can't prove it)?
> 
> 
> No, there just wasn't much to respond to.
> 
> On Mon, Oct 12, 2015 at 8:55 AM, Georgi Guninski <guninski at guninski.com>
> wrote:
> 
> > So assuming Snowden "borrowed" the slide from the NSA and he didn't get
> > owned, the slide is _REAL_.
> >
> > Having in mind Snowden likely have large pile of slides, if he got
> > owned, likely all/the majority of them would likely be fake.
> >
> > Is this plausible?
> >
> > And did you missed the us-natsec trolling about the eu appearing to
> > trust Snowden's slides (though sometimes they can't prove it)?
> >
> >
> > On Mon, Oct 12, 2015 at 08:22:37AM -0400, Michael Best wrote:
> > > No but as I and others have noted, he didn't look at all of the materials
> > > he handed over to journalists and couldn't possibly be expected to
> > remember
> > > all the ones he did see well enough to possibly be able to ID this one as
> > > altered or forged. He was only able to argue against the other documents
> > > because he had never been in touch with the outlet releasing them,
> > contrary
> > > to their apparent belief.
> > >
> > > On Mon, Oct 12, 2015 at 8:19 AM, Georgi Guninski <guninski at guninski.com>
> > > wrote:
> > >
> > > > On Mon, Oct 12, 2015 at 07:50:14AM -0400, Michael Best wrote:
> > > > > As I think I said in the other thread, less specific charges that
> > require
> > > > > more specific proof and almost never leveled before a trial is set,
> > > > because
> > > > > it forces the issue to be tried in the court of public opinion,
> > where a
> > > > lot
> > > > > of information can't be released lest it spoil an investigation or
> > > > > potential trial. There's also the fact that there'd be little to
> > gain at
> > > > > this point by alleging that the slides are fake since there would be
> > few
> > > > > people to believe it,
> > > > >
> > > > > "NSA hasn't said it's fake" doesn't seem like a strong argument -
> > > > > especially for a non-NSA slide. And again - *Snowden himself* has
> > accused
> > > > > outlets of releasing slides attributed to him that *he says he did
> > not
> > > > > provide*.
> > > > >
> > > > Likely the NSA would distribute fake slides just to discredit Snowden.
> > > >
> > > > Does Snowden deny the authencity of this slide?
> > > >
> > > > This slide appeared in _too many_ news AFAICT to get unnoticed.
> > > >
> >




From tbiehn at gmail.com  Mon Oct 12 10:05:06 2015
From: tbiehn at gmail.com (Travis Biehn)
Date: Mon, 12 Oct 2015 17:05:06 +0000
Subject: [cryptome] Re: NatSecGeek
In-Reply-To: <20151012164116.34FFA680137@frontend2.nyi.internal>
References: <CANFTA0-qPf1VhateDGgbWRuxTrua4H7fqVXJVGsg+Upx-WwfGw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAJVRA1Tujm68F6cg_o_JjjHtSC9Wxd86iEGSSeCxYW2=8xkyBQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <CANFTA0-hj_v0ezi-1qvr8X3ELmCTpzyUyTnADe-2QKQO441vKA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAGRDzQV3ps1jFwA9H2ZDL4RnMeZR7cj44Fo+U34YESonVVs-xw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CANFTA09n99=-pqgt-VDf6V5BFOk7EWGdyktaiKvJpaC4JL98cw@mail.gmail.com>
 <20151010135231.GD2694@sivokote.iziade.m$>
 <CANFTA0_ar1V2csWrdKJGPote-n24cWvO9sfs7x+B_-jzkp8Qfw@mail.gmail.com>
 <20151010140904.GE2694@sivokote.iziade.m$>
 <CANFTA09QXePNmaqoWW-XMD_fFusAq65EMewzkMsYUjnZoSeJhA@mail.gmail.com>
 <20151010141819.GF2694@sivokote.iziade.m$>
 <CANFTA08+QbS0ri+UTfkhjSRgTZ-HJ-e76KEJbSdQU45bZBeCgQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAJVRA1TM4j14KX1zDiiSpEkDaB2TWFttcrd+Fix+2p0pRUJbfw@mail.gmail.com>
 <561BDF3C.4040308@riseup.net>
 <20151012164116.34FFA680137@frontend2.nyi.internal>
Message-ID: <CAKtE3zdpoqEoi4tKG3yaFyLdK96dcOKZbqaiMNhSF-D1XC3xFQ@mail.gmail.com>

*wiggles eyebrows* didn't think that would take this long to mention.

Don't forget the conspicuous use of gmail and suspiciously legitimate names.

Can't trust em.

-Travis

On Mon, Oct 12, 2015, 12:46 PM Shelley <shelley at misanthropia.org> wrote:

> On October 12, 2015 9:31:40 AM Razer <Rayzer at riseup.net> wrote:
>
> >
>
> > His use of a sig with all his social networks is one of the reasons I
> > earlier said Best has some income-related motive, and that he's most
> > likely dealing in 'future rewards'. After all BB is a contributor to the
> > intercept and even that cheap ass street panhandler "Commander X" aka
> > 'curbhugger chris' got a whole damn writeup in the New Yorker.
> >
> > RR
> >
>
> Razor, what has gotten into you?
>
> The only social network sig block I've seen is this:
>
> ---
>  Twitter <https://twitter.com/tbiehn> | LinkedIn
> <http://www.linkedin.com/in/travisbiehn> | GitHub <
> http://github.com/tbiehn>
> | TravisBiehn.com <http://www.travisbiehn.com> | Google Plus
> <https://plus.google.com/+TravisBiehn>
> --
>
> There has been a lot of noise on the list so I could have missed it, but I
> don't recall seeing Mike post anything like that (whereas the above is
> posted in each of Travis's replies, and I don't see you calling him out for
> it.)  Georgi asked Mike if he was NatSecGeek, that's the only time I recall
> his Twatter being mentioned.
>
> If you're going to attack someone, at least get the facts straight.
>
> -S
>
>
>
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From guninski at guninski.com  Mon Oct 12 07:06:29 2015
From: guninski at guninski.com (Georgi Guninski)
Date: Mon, 12 Oct 2015 17:06:29 +0300
Subject: Trying to invoke Godwin's law for some threads on this so called list
Message-ID: <20151012140629.GF2778@sivokote.iziade.m$>

Just trying to invoke Godwin's law [0] for some threads on this so
called list.

It is full of alleged natsec and/or/iff nazis AFAICT.

[0]
https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Godwin%27s_law&oldid=685169685




From carimachet at gmail.com  Mon Oct 12 07:08:50 2015
From: carimachet at gmail.com (Cari Machet)
Date: Mon, 12 Oct 2015 17:08:50 +0300
Subject: [cryptome] Re: [cryptome]
In-Reply-To: <20151012130825.21AB668022A@frontend2.nyi.internal>
References: <CANFTA0-9zYonRQQod7x0pRa60r0aBBHUvbbf+yn=_TMG3Dzt9A@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAGRDzQVfu4LhGvYrOU0Cwh7A3RSM5J2-ynthp6mj6Cw7pyfOmg@mail.gmail.com>
 <CANFTA09UC2oWcg89550b_WL5XC2fEX4O+XN=mWaoWhtzK_9Pxg@mail.gmail.com>
 <20151012130825.21AB668022A@frontend2.nyi.internal>
Message-ID: <CAGRDzQVmWV+vcUQiroQymXHxzm60jFbg9JDWqFpppQyv2dRi_w@mail.gmail.com>

That is complete bollocks i wrote over and over about johns bullshit...
acknowledging it

That you refuse to have self critique proves point of an irresponsible
mindset toward the community

I am not alone here others stated the same i am just following what you
pointed to as big proof you made an ask to the list... which i do not see
at all

If ypu acknowledge the issue maybe your ego will get out of the way and you
can shift behavior if you dont even acknowledge the behavior you will be on
repeat cycle - not acceptable

Shelly brain hurt? Not surprising
On Oct 12, 2015 4:12 PM, "Shelley" <shelley at misanthropia.org> wrote:

> On October 12, 2015 4:09:39 AM Michael Best <themikebest at gmail.com> wrote:
>
> This is weird, right? I feel like I'm in Zoolander, "taking crazy pills" I
>> didn't ask the list the right way but JYA lying/accusing gets nothing?
>>
>
> Resistance is futile!  It's far better to just walk away from an argument
> with Cari than to feel like you're losing your sanity.  You'll never "win"
> or get your point across clearly, no matter how many times you repeat it.
> Her lack of punctuation and logic hurts my brain, please make it stop!
>
> -S
>
>
>
>> On Mon, Oct 12, 2015 at 1:37 AM, Cari Machet <carimachet at gmail.com>
>> wrote:
>>
>> > No i am talking about this list - this list is a community
>> >
>> > You did not ask this list for help that i can see ... prove me wrong
>> >
>> > You are saying jy did not admit ... you complain about it yet accept no
>> > critique of said by you
>> >
>> > Have a think about it go for a walk rest take a few days and get back to
>> > me after
>> > On Oct 11, 2015 7:38 PM, "Michael Best" <themikebest at gmail.com> wrote:
>> >
>> >> *Cari Machet* carimachet at gmail.com
>> >>>
>> >>> <carimachet%
>> 40gmail.com?Subject=Re%3A%20%5Bcryptome%5D%20Re%3A%20%5Bcryptome%5D&In-Reply-To=%3CCAGRDzQWNCCe7AUOL%3D-YoFUdi5%2Bm2KPxsq30D3OJzgJjQUrMaCw%40mail.gmail.com%3E
>> >*Sun
>> >>> Oct 11 12:25:43 EDT 2015*
>> >>> reveal was to protect the community (fr john) then why was that act >
>> >>> protecting the community > avoided by mike
>> >>
>> >> Plus no ask to the list but said asked the list and if the point of the
>> >>>
>> >>
>> >> First email asked for help, no reason the list was excluded from that
>> >> even though I explicitly asked John for help verifying it. Then I asked
>> >> open endedly on Twitter.
>> >>
>> >> Also, you seem to be confusing this list with the community of
>> Cryptome's
>> >> visitors. There's overlap, sure, but they are *not* the same.
>> >>
>> >> Plus, John deleted the early emails I made to the Cryptome list, which
>> is
>> >> more explicitly the mailing list that would be best identified as the
>> >> community you're referring to.
>> >>
>> >
>>
>
>
>
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From mirimir at riseup.net  Mon Oct 12 17:12:36 2015
From: mirimir at riseup.net (Mirimir)
Date: Mon, 12 Oct 2015 18:12:36 -0600
Subject: why we need more cryptome mirrors, in all corners
In-Reply-To: <561BC561.6020605@riseup.net>
References: <CAJVRA1QMqMQL8+At127bHNyX21jTwvdC1_O0shmisRtSE+Fo4g@mail.gmail.com>
 <561BC561.6020605@riseup.net>
Message-ID: <561C4C74.3040507@riseup.net>

On 10/12/2015 08:36 AM, Razer wrote:
> "Let me make this PERFECTLY CLEAR"
> 
> It's not a 'mirror'. So far as I can see, it's a dump. The National
> Security Archive maintains a mirror @IA and you aren't going to find any
> dox 'in the wild' or modified, or even SUSPECTED of being modified dox
> on that reflector.

IA is a very cool thing. But they play it very safe. So I totally don't
get the idea of expecting them to host even Ctyptome-level stuff. In my
experience, controversial stuff lasts maybe a few hours there.

> On 10/11/2015 03:45 PM, coderman wrote:
> 
>> for this, i am quite grateful to see the archive.org natsec section
>> expanded with cryptome mirror!
>>
> 
> 
> 
> On 10/11/2015 03:45 PM, coderman wrote:
> 
> On 10/10/15, Shelley <shelley at misanthropia.org> wrote:
> 
>> ...
>> The Cryptome archives *are* publicly accessible.  John limits bots and
>> leechers to a certain number of files per day (as is his right, he is
>> paying for the bandwidth), approx 100 iirc, but anyone who can use search
>> strings can find anything on the site.
> 
> it is exceptionally difficult, short of ordering physical duplicates,
> to obtain a significant portion of cryptome archive from cryptome.org.
> 
> part of this is inherent abuse - any mirror gets serious algorithmic
> beatings - akin to HackingTeam mirrors perhaps, not counting the
> mindless cloud VM bot walkers, annoying enough.  even the hidden
> service only mirrors got offensive proddings. remember, some of
> cryptome-opponents are relying on obscurity - thwarted every time some
> makes a mirror...
> 
> for this, i am quite grateful to see the archive.org natsec section
> expanded with cryptome mirror!
> https://archive.org/details/nationalsecurityarchive
> 
> thanks to all involved (esp. you, Michael 
> 
> 
> best regards,
> 
> 
> 




From guninski at guninski.com  Mon Oct 12 09:12:52 2015
From: guninski at guninski.com (Georgi Guninski)
Date: Mon, 12 Oct 2015 19:12:52 +0300
Subject: What is the point to replying to natsecgirls when their mission is
 entirely clear?
Message-ID: <20151012161252.GG2778@sivokote.iziade.m$>

What is the point to replying to natsecgirls when their mission is
entirely clear?

Except for OOBC I don't see any, though I am quite dumb.




From coderman at gmail.com  Mon Oct 12 20:38:36 2015
From: coderman at gmail.com (coderman)
Date: Mon, 12 Oct 2015 20:38:36 -0700
Subject: FOIPA adventures
In-Reply-To: <CAJVRA1Qao1qE2kBSbb_V5NPQ7PF--VFnYQpc=08wY2_ZURz4hg@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAJVRA1SaJpNaPQx=s_7VVM==ony2sH0aUG3w11cjNX6escSm8w@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAJVRA1TUfu40206TOzK2kBsgCvbgBYYXmyKZ3E5n4KQuoEtZyg@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAJVRA1QtgMky_hsDLsmFwiXcxE528bZaDOQsjTqqj4tR-dbGBQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAJVRA1RwoyoRs-REWnhGd8cHZM6EJvcziTUDXbU5A6TMigOT6A@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAJVRA1Rwaq1fvE8p-s1JwOANvMc7X2E75bx5eNd4KGJapt6Nuw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAJVRA1TU5Frg3WOJk+3ZFEH0QAFya5xZnwzCfCUE+hL1NhKUFg@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAJVRA1Q0SDo9Fj3KAU9vA3cxR2=7pwcdpO3Ex=yi6g2WtRAg6A@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAJVRA1Srrb08Z9XvG+rYq30p2E_MnhJA6ynOLpdT--6gCvwiyQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAJVRA1RXD2dr16TJZK-MPcJm7nR0Ov=Dp9i5Anf5hKNFs2hq7w@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAJVRA1S97DSPk0NBjgon1LS4HHuGtq_03dqFppUnWq+t61a41A@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAJVRA1SyW_wOUcFUo6STbiePO8HmLV9LgF-PCgugvuPRD_tKWA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAJVRA1QaYYF=hoSQiSd4SHNUj-W6hjEJDhy1KxR9CfFKDgNkew@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAJVRA1TvZxj_qz6_xK8h13LOD-5mE6iNvT9dnThf4ue0_=kY3Q@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAJVRA1RbeuzfiVAOqaZ15p8kr67jxcBoNMOrJkt3K86_=FuVXw@mail.gmail.com>
 <000701d0bcb7$94118e80$bc34ab80$@co.uk>
 <CAJVRA1SE1O-PqmkV8vX=q5j_xs-YFOpH=OLxSvwaT8BBvadQmA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAJVRA1TwM3Re8Tz6NPxp_CeY5C4K3QN+Ceo5VbW3JKMbBABv9g@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAJVRA1SbqTrEbUJ84rLFWdu6+psY5uUzu-ZsVfyUwoSaMRcGdQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAJVRA1RDN6HsLCbF_wsK+zARO9PaEn80R9FSGnWgGVF4XkbbpQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAJVRA1Rt2gKvgnM0MCiqf2Q4vJ8wWxm=KabcQXeBYSqn4zRvKg@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAJVRA1Q95CKTVahkfQeH_pwaGDcgJ-4OL2=9o5ckQrZLG8HeUA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAJVRA1SyX65OE9-7DQ1hP1fGWHxY8rvCqFXhKPu4Oy4o6wt0gg@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAJVRA1SgoLtLFS9AFf_d043AGDVbKp4djDtijDR+zfCRJ8twTA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAJVRA1SvN5ML7TQnOUqz78PhYv8aefz=k8-4fPOwv2uHUVF3_w@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAJVRA1Ry2EV7qaFHmZJ9cjm8-waCNBCzenO9BpqW+YKChEHX7w@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAJVRA1S5juVmB6Ouy0JWbdeJdj9yz0W6tKQDY2q_zi+AC461EA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAJVRA1SYO0ia4VGLwFwZFowkD75YR61MC1TNc1wzHbZtmhy1_w@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAJVRA1SqWMVy6m6KuiJWQQG_6XPWoB+86-p45PWKvfn8wg_jeA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAJVRA1RWaiCZtig6+Seyk-UN9M3h9+2iZ0Otnqb6n=AFcRAeRw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAJVRA1QzHeh=rs0hRf0sugLZdbXvAhK+2Yte5Tbt_Tnv5Tf8mg@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAJVRA1SdAW+36Z8yYTdSFTtz8S8U5aiELv5NiuXg5Rg-vaFYew@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAJVRA1Svk488ax6sd4oy52rfM_u_E1EuzhUAQt6cQ2Jy5yRx5g@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAJVRA1S4=X5P6hKnZu224GjseL5ws1vRm6Gk4gJ+DG06oLjaDA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAJVRA1RsgoKvADCcRz76vj1xjT+EQDB96tw7-sgg_pf+BGzA=A@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAJVRA1TOMYnBh0-B=uh6n2HsOsFdY+SKVG-=XqKi6WPNro++PA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAJVRA1Qao1qE2kBSbb_V5NPQ7PF--VFnYQpc=08wY2_ZURz4hg@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAJVRA1S45TEydVoKDxW9SfC0DKcSdxB_HfjrvcZQjU5uymfFOQ@mail.gmail.com>

On 10/9/15, coderman <coderman at gmail.com> wrote:
> $115 for responsive docs from FBI regarding FLIR equipment:
>   https://www.muckrock.com/foi/united-states-of-america-10/flirwhere-18875/

sent $105 through MuckRock itself in response to fee request for PON info:
'''
Any and all records, including cross-references and indirect mentions,
including records outside the investigation main file pertaining to
Passive Optical Network (PON) technical surveillance, including Fiber
To The Premises (FTTP) and Fiber To The Home (FTTH) technologies as
well as "Metro Ethernet" over Optical Fibre. PON types explicitly to
include BPON, or broadband PON; GPON, or gigabit-capable PON; GPON, or
gigabit-capable PON based on IEEE 802.3ah or IEEE 802.3av. Internal
records and research projects are in scope of this request. This is
explicitly to include a count of PON technical surveillance capable
devices owned, leased, or otherwise in use by the Bureau. Requested
search to include each of the following record stores and interfaces:
the Central Records System (CRS), the Automated Case Support system
("ACS") Investigative Case Management system ("ICM"), the Automated
Case Support system ("ACS") Electronic Case File ("ECF"), and the
Automated Case Support system ("ACS") Universal Index ("UNI"). I also
request a search of "ELSUR", the database containing electronic
surveillance information, for any and all records or activities
related to PON surveillance technology. Please include processing
notes, even if request is denied in part.
'''
 https://www.muckrock.com/foi/united-states-of-america-10/ponpwn-20309/


still no acceptance of the prior record $115 for FLIR tech @FBI.


the journey continues...




From shelley at misanthropia.org  Mon Oct 12 20:46:52 2015
From: shelley at misanthropia.org (Shelley)
Date: Mon, 12 Oct 2015 20:46:52 -0700
Subject: [cryptome] Re: FOIPA adventures
In-Reply-To: <CAJVRA1S45TEydVoKDxW9SfC0DKcSdxB_HfjrvcZQjU5uymfFOQ@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAJVRA1SaJpNaPQx=s_7VVM==ony2sH0aUG3w11cjNX6escSm8w@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAJVRA1TUfu40206TOzK2kBsgCvbgBYYXmyKZ3E5n4KQuoEtZyg@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAJVRA1QtgMky_hsDLsmFwiXcxE528bZaDOQsjTqqj4tR-dbGBQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAJVRA1RwoyoRs-REWnhGd8cHZM6EJvcziTUDXbU5A6TMigOT6A@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAJVRA1Rwaq1fvE8p-s1JwOANvMc7X2E75bx5eNd4KGJapt6Nuw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAJVRA1TU5Frg3WOJk+3ZFEH0QAFya5xZnwzCfCUE+hL1NhKUFg@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAJVRA1Q0SDo9Fj3KAU9vA3cxR2=7pwcdpO3Ex=yi6g2WtRAg6A@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAJVRA1Srrb08Z9XvG+rYq30p2E_MnhJA6ynOLpdT--6gCvwiyQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAJVRA1RXD2dr16TJZK-MPcJm7nR0Ov=Dp9i5Anf5hKNFs2hq7w@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAJVRA1S97DSPk0NBjgon1LS4HHuGtq_03dqFppUnWq+t61a41A@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAJVRA1SyW_wOUcFUo6STbiePO8HmLV9LgF-PCgugvuPRD_tKWA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAJVRA1QaYYF=hoSQiSd4SHNUj-W6hjEJDhy1KxR9CfFKDgNkew@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAJVRA1TvZxj_qz6_xK8h13LOD-5mE6iNvT9dnThf4ue0_=kY3Q@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAJVRA1RbeuzfiVAOqaZ15p8kr67jxcBoNMOrJkt3K86_=FuVXw@mail.gmail.com>
 <000701d0bcb7$94118e80$bc34ab80$@co.uk>
 <CAJVRA1SE1O-PqmkV8vX=q5j_xs-YFOpH=OLxSvwaT8BBvadQmA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAJVRA1TwM3Re8Tz6NPxp_CeY5C4K3QN+Ceo5VbW3JKMbBABv9g@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAJVRA1SbqTrEbUJ84rLFWdu6+psY5uUzu-ZsVfyUwoSaMRcGdQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAJVRA1RDN6HsLCbF_wsK+zARO9PaEn80R9FSGnWgGVF4XkbbpQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAJVRA1Rt2gKvgnM0MCiqf2Q4vJ8wWxm=KabcQXeBYSqn4zRvKg@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAJVRA1Q95CKTVahkfQeH_pwaGDcgJ-4OL2=9o5ckQrZLG8HeUA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAJVRA1SyX65OE9-7DQ1hP1fGWHxY8rvCqFXhKPu4Oy4o6wt0gg@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAJVRA1SgoLtLFS9AFf_d043AGDVbKp4djDtijDR+zfCRJ8twTA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAJVRA1SvN5ML7TQnOUqz78PhYv8aefz=k8-4fPOwv2uHUVF3_w@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAJVRA1Ry2EV7qaFHmZJ9cjm8-waCNBCzenO9BpqW+YKChEHX7w@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAJVRA1S5juVmB6Ouy0JWbdeJdj9yz0W6tKQDY2q_zi+AC461EA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAJVRA1SYO0ia4VGLwFwZFowkD75YR61MC1TNc1wzHbZtmhy1_w@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAJVRA1SqWMVy6m6KuiJWQQG_6XPWoB+86-p45PWKvfn8wg_jeA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAJVRA1RWaiCZtig6+Seyk-UN9M3h9+2iZ0Otnqb6n=AFcRAeRw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAJVRA1QzHeh=rs0hRf0sugLZdbXvAhK+2Yte5Tbt_Tnv5Tf8mg@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAJVRA1SdAW+36Z8yYTdSFTtz8S8U5aiELv5NiuXg5Rg-vaFYew@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAJVRA1Svk488ax6sd4oy52rfM_u_E1EuzhUAQt6cQ2Jy5yRx5g@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAJVRA1S4=X5P6hKnZu224GjseL5ws1vRm6Gk4gJ+DG06oLjaDA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAJVRA1RsgoKvADCcRz76vj1xjT+EQDB96tw7-sgg_pf+BGzA=A@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAJVRA1TOMYnBh0-B=uh6n2HsOsFdY+SKVG-=XqKi6WPNro++PA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAJVRA1Qao1qE2kBSbb_V5NPQ7PF--VFnYQpc=08wY2_ZURz4hg@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAJVRA1S45TEydVoKDxW9SfC0DKcSdxB_HfjrvcZQjU5uymfFOQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <20151013034636.33974C0001D@frontend1.nyi.internal>

On October 12, 2015 8:39:00 PM coderman <coderman at gmail.com> wrote:

> On 10/9/15, coderman <coderman at gmail.com> wrote:
> > $115 for responsive docs from FBI regarding FLIR equipment:
> >   https://www.muckrock.com/foi/united-states-of-america-10/flirwhere-18875/
>
> sent $105 through MuckRock itself in response to fee request for PON info:
> '''
> Any and all records, including cross-references and indirect mentions,
> including records outside the investigation main file pertaining to
> Passive Optical Network (PON) technical surveillance, including Fiber
> To The Premises (FTTP) and Fiber To The Home (FTTH) technologies as
> well as "Metro Ethernet" over Optical Fibre. PON types explicitly to
> include BPON, or broadband PON; GPON, or gigabit-capable PON; GPON, or
> gigabit-capable PON based on IEEE 802.3ah or IEEE 802.3av. Internal
> records and research projects are in scope of this request. This is
> explicitly to include a count of PON technical surveillance capable
> devices owned, leased, or otherwise in use by the Bureau. Requested
> search to include each of the following record stores and interfaces:
> the Central Records System (CRS), the Automated Case Support system
> ("ACS") Investigative Case Management system ("ICM"), the Automated
> Case Support system ("ACS") Electronic Case File ("ECF"), and the
> Automated Case Support system ("ACS") Universal Index ("UNI"). I also
> request a search of "ELSUR", the database containing electronic
> surveillance information, for any and all records or activities
> related to PON surveillance technology. Please include processing
> notes, even if request is denied in part.
> '''
>  https://www.muckrock.com/foi/united-states-of-america-10/ponpwn-20309/
>
>
> still no acceptance of the prior record $115 for FLIR tech @FBI.
>
>
> the journey continues...
>

Oh good job coderman, I'll be very interested to see how much of the PON 
info is redacted.  It's such BS that they can charge that much to get 
digital copies of records that we've already paid for for with our taxes.

-S





From carimachet at gmail.com  Mon Oct 12 11:32:25 2015
From: carimachet at gmail.com (Cari Machet)
Date: Mon, 12 Oct 2015 21:32:25 +0300
Subject: high stakes games :)
In-Reply-To: <CAJVRA1RJmNnGDt8q2Z1BuS4aSXw64-_+4JL_wdmfWwuwQ0LPwQ@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAJVRA1RJmNnGDt8q2Z1BuS4aSXw64-_+4JL_wdmfWwuwQ0LPwQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAGRDzQUzcCZTgbL82d+8L0Yka8aVmX6cVoURmggcyzYsgREW3Q@mail.gmail.com>

Umn this dude mike no kaspersky as there is something so profoundly
unethical about a researcher that is unable to self critique

Being able to point out fuck ups by others but not the self is an
engagement in dellusion looped

Nice infos here though codermans
On Oct 12, 2015 7:57 PM, "coderman" <coderman at gmail.com> wrote:

> "A perfect example of the perils faced by researchers was provided in
> a separate talk at Virus Bulletin by Costin Raiu, director of
> Kaspersky Lab’s Global Research and Analysis Team. Raiu revealed that
> when he was involved in the analysis of Stuxnet a few years ago,
> someone broke into his house and left a rubber cube with the message
> “take a break” written on it."
>
> ---
>
>
> http://www.securityweek.com/long-term-strategy-needed-when-analyzing-apts-researcher
>
> Long-Term Strategy Needed When Analyzing APTs: Researcher
> By Eduard Kovacs on October 07, 2015
>
> Analyzing advanced persistent threats (APTs) is not just about
> collecting pieces of information, and companies that focus on APTs
> should accept the fact that they have become intelligence brokers.
>
> In a presentation last week at the Virus Bulletin conference in
> Prague, Juan Andres Guerrero-Saade, senior security researcher in
> Kaspersky Lab’s Global Research and Analysis Team, detailed the ethics
> and perils associated with APT research.
>
> Cyberattacks sponsored by nation states are increasingly investigated
> by both startups and well-established security companies. However, it
> appears that many firms involved in researching APTs lack long-term
> strategy and they’ve failed to consider the repercussions of their
> work.
>
> According to Guerrero-Saade, one of the main issues is that companies
> and researchers have failed to understand that cyberespionage is a
> part of classic espionage, and those analyzing such cyber operations
> have failed to accept their role as intelligence brokers.
>
> Intelligence agencies and private security firms involved in the
> analysis of cyber espionage campaigns follow similar procedural
> methodologies, but there are some noteworthy differences.
>
> In the case of intelligence agencies, they receive a request, they
> gather information, analyze it, and deliver it. But before delivering
> it, the resulting report is taken through a strategic filtering
> process that ensures the well-being of all involved parties.
>
> On the other hand, threat intelligence teams don’t necessarily need a
> delimiting request in order to begin analyzing a threat actor’s
> activities -- an investigation can start from a decontextualized
> sample or a vague request for incident response. Researchers collect
> malware samples, indicators of compromise, and data on command and
> control (C&C) infrastructure, but their analysis is oversimplified,
> their strategy for release of the information is often deferred to PR
> or sales departments. The resulting reports, which might not contain
> any actionable intelligence, are often released to the public in an
> effort to attract new customers and boost the company’s reputation,
> but without taking into account the potential consequences,
> Guerrero-Saade said.
>
> While intelligence agencies and security researchers follow similar
> procedural methodologies, there are major differences in the ethics
> and especially the perils they face. The Kaspersky Lab expert has
> pointed out that the activities of intelligence agencies are not
> considered suspicious by other governmental institutions, the
> employees of intelligence agencies enjoy legal protections, and their
> work is shielded from political blowback.
>
> In the case of threat intelligence teams, however, researchers don’t
> benefit from any cover for their actions, they don’t enjoy any legal
> protections, and the companies they work for can also suffer due to
> their actions.
>
> According to Guerrero-Saade, the list of perils faced by researchers
> includes subtle pressure, patriotic enlistment, bribery, compromise
> and blackmail, legal repercussions, threat to livelihood, threat to
> viability of life in the actor’s area of influence, threat of force,
> and even elimination. A perfect example of the perils faced by
> researchers was provided in a separate talk at Virus Bulletin by
> Costin Raiu, director of Kaspersky Lab’s Global Research and Analysis
> Team. Raiu revealed that when he was involved in the analysis of
> Stuxnet a few years ago, someone broke into his house and left a
> rubber cube with the message “take a break” written on it.
>
> In the case of companies, they can face political, financial and
> regulatory repercussions, they can end up losing government contracts
> and partnerships, and they can become the target of rumors and smear
> campaigns if they don’t properly evaluate what they disclose and whom
> they disclose to.
>
> As for ethical concerns, the lack of malware diversification -- the
> fact that the same malware is used against both extremists and less
> “malicious” targets such as research institutions -- can cause
> researchers to question whether or not they should detect the malware.
> More precisely, if the malware is used against a legitimate
> organization, then it should be detected to protect such entities. On
> the other hand, if the malware is detected, it will also make it
> easier for extremists to protect themselves against cyber spying
> attempts.
>
> Another ethical issue is related to the fact that the researcher’s
> insight into the operation they are targeting is always superficial.
> At first glance, it might appear that the targeted entity is
> “innocent,” such as an academic or a journalist, but in reality they
> could be a radical academic or a terrorism-facilitating journalist.
>
> Guerrero-Saade told SecurityWeek in an interview that threat actors
> can plant false evidence to throw investigators off track -- these are
> known as “black flag” operations. One good example is the group known
> as “Wild Neutron” or “Morpho,” whose malware contains strings in both
> Russian and Romanian.
>
> Guerrero-Saade believes that the best way for threat intelligence
> teams to overcome the challenges is to accept their role as
> intelligence brokers and put more emphasis on strategy. The expert
> believes companies should hire a chief strategic officer or someone
> who is in charge of making decisions related to who gets what
> information, instead of leaving the task to PR and marketing
> departments.
>
> Companies should also focus on providing actionable intelligence. One
> negative example named by the researcher during his presentation at
> Virus Bulletin is a recent report from ThreatConnect and Defense Group
> that focuses on linking the APT group known as “Naikon” to a unit of
> the Chinese People’s Liberation Army. The problem, according to
> Guerrero-Saade, is that the connection made by researchers in the
> report focuses on the analysis of an alleged PLA officer’s personal
> postings on social media and provides little actionable intelligence.
> The Kaspersky researcher told SecurityWeek that this is equivalent to
> “doxing” someone you don’t like, just like members of the Anonymous
> hacktivist movement do when they get uncomfortable with another
> member.
>
> “The current threat intelligence market is in the midst of an identity
> crisis. As companies transition from plain IT security to intelligence
> production, the relevant methodology of intelligence brokerage must be
> embraced in order to stand a chance against the supernatural market
> tensions that are the product of meddling with the operations of
> diverse intelligence agencies and enraging their respective
> governments,” Guerrero-Saade said in a paper accompanying his
> presentation at Virus Bulletin.
>
> “The transition to intelligence brokerage proper is encouraged as a
> means of survival for threat intelligence producers facing escalating
> geopolitical tensions. By empowering the producers to strategically
> control their offerings, these tensions are relieved or entirely
> sidestepped and the market can flourish away from the limelight,” the
> expert added.
>
> The complete paper, titled "The ethics and perils of APT research: an
> unexpected transition into intelligence brokerage," is available for
> download from Kaspersky Lab.
>
>
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From carimachet at gmail.com  Mon Oct 12 11:39:52 2015
From: carimachet at gmail.com (Cari Machet)
Date: Mon, 12 Oct 2015 21:39:52 +0300
Subject: [cryptome] Re: [cryptome]
In-Reply-To: <CANFTA0-DDDHA+Usvyqx+mYxp4J7OYrejWm3b5+H6qAdZPVKh+g@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CANFTA0-9zYonRQQod7x0pRa60r0aBBHUvbbf+yn=_TMG3Dzt9A@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAGRDzQVfu4LhGvYrOU0Cwh7A3RSM5J2-ynthp6mj6Cw7pyfOmg@mail.gmail.com>
 <CANFTA09UC2oWcg89550b_WL5XC2fEX4O+XN=mWaoWhtzK_9Pxg@mail.gmail.com>
 <20151012130825.21AB668022A@frontend2.nyi.internal>
 <CAGRDzQVmWV+vcUQiroQymXHxzm60jFbg9JDWqFpppQyv2dRi_w@mail.gmail.com>
 <CANFTA0-DDDHA+Usvyqx+mYxp4J7OYrejWm3b5+H6qAdZPVKh+g@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAGRDzQW9dD8VqVEjvzCnpDE4_d1iD8F4iwtNt0ep1v+bN3j-VQ@mail.gmail.com>

No one said that you are not listening and apparently incapable of listening

Johnnie did horror

Mikey did horror

Simple stuff mikey
On Oct 12, 2015 5:25 PM, "Michael Best" <themikebest at gmail.com> wrote:

> That you refuse to have self critique proves point of an irresponsible
>> mindset toward the community
>
>
> John's not notifying Cryptome's users/visitors through the website? NOT an
> irresponsible mindset towards the community. For some reason. Ditto his
> deleting the first posts to the Cryptome mailing list raising the issue.
> Not irresponsible or driven by ego. At. All.
>
> On Mon, Oct 12, 2015 at 10:08 AM, Cari Machet <carimachet at gmail.com>
> wrote:
>
>> That is complete bollocks i wrote over and over about johns bullshit...
>> acknowledging it
>>
>> That you refuse to have self critique proves point of an irresponsible
>> mindset toward the community
>>
>> I am not alone here others stated the same i am just following what you
>> pointed to as big proof you made an ask to the list... which i do not see
>> at all
>>
>> If ypu acknowledge the issue maybe your ego will get out of the way and
>> you can shift behavior if you dont even acknowledge the behavior you will
>> be on repeat cycle - not acceptable
>>
>> Shelly brain hurt? Not surprising
>> On Oct 12, 2015 4:12 PM, "Shelley" <shelley at misanthropia.org> wrote:
>>
>>> On October 12, 2015 4:09:39 AM Michael Best <themikebest at gmail.com>
>>> wrote:
>>>
>>> This is weird, right? I feel like I'm in Zoolander, "taking crazy pills"
>>>> I
>>>> didn't ask the list the right way but JYA lying/accusing gets nothing?
>>>>
>>>
>>> Resistance is futile!  It's far better to just walk away from an
>>> argument with Cari than to feel like you're losing your sanity.  You'll
>>> never "win" or get your point across clearly, no matter how many times you
>>> repeat it.  Her lack of punctuation and logic hurts my brain, please make
>>> it stop!
>>>
>>> -S
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>> On Mon, Oct 12, 2015 at 1:37 AM, Cari Machet <carimachet at gmail.com>
>>>> wrote:
>>>>
>>>> > No i am talking about this list - this list is a community
>>>> >
>>>> > You did not ask this list for help that i can see ... prove me wrong
>>>> >
>>>> > You are saying jy did not admit ... you complain about it yet accept
>>>> no
>>>> > critique of said by you
>>>> >
>>>> > Have a think about it go for a walk rest take a few days and get back
>>>> to
>>>> > me after
>>>> > On Oct 11, 2015 7:38 PM, "Michael Best" <themikebest at gmail.com>
>>>> wrote:
>>>> >
>>>> >> *Cari Machet* carimachet at gmail.com
>>>> >>>
>>>> >>> <carimachet%
>>>> 40gmail.com?Subject=Re%3A%20%5Bcryptome%5D%20Re%3A%20%5Bcryptome%5D&In-Reply-To=%3CCAGRDzQWNCCe7AUOL%3D-YoFUdi5%2Bm2KPxsq30D3OJzgJjQUrMaCw%40mail.gmail.com%3E
>>>> >*Sun
>>>> >>> Oct 11 12:25:43 EDT 2015*
>>>> >>> reveal was to protect the community (fr john) then why was that act
>>>> >
>>>> >>> protecting the community > avoided by mike
>>>> >>
>>>> >> Plus no ask to the list but said asked the list and if the point of
>>>> the
>>>> >>>
>>>> >>
>>>> >> First email asked for help, no reason the list was excluded from that
>>>> >> even though I explicitly asked John for help verifying it. Then I
>>>> asked
>>>> >> open endedly on Twitter.
>>>> >>
>>>> >> Also, you seem to be confusing this list with the community of
>>>> Cryptome's
>>>> >> visitors. There's overlap, sure, but they are *not* the same.
>>>> >>
>>>> >> Plus, John deleted the early emails I made to the Cryptome list,
>>>> which is
>>>> >> more explicitly the mailing list that would be best identified as the
>>>> >> community you're referring to.
>>>> >>
>>>> >
>>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>
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From drjfeinstein at mail.com  Mon Oct 12 13:34:29 2015
From: drjfeinstein at mail.com (Dr. J Feinstein)
Date: Mon, 12 Oct 2015 22:34:29 +0200
Subject: stuxmemories
In-Reply-To: <20151012195056.22B806801D2@frontend2.nyi.internal>
References: <CAJVRA1RYV=A1L51s8XmQ3siA2rDCq2o3VZ4L1ykZegPjDwhwzw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAJVRA1TiQsMZOcU=665eN7stT9fvKAs7EUWcgD5PU4NLZA=DvA@mail.gmail.com>,
 <20151012195056.22B806801D2@frontend2.nyi.internal>
Message-ID: <trinity-92d1dc2f-5ec3-470f-a93c-fd99f5b46355-1444682068882@3capp-mailcom-lxa13>


I dont get it
 

Sent: Monday, October 12, 2015 at 7:51 PM
From: Shelley <shelley at misanthropia.org>
To: coderman <coderman at gmail.com>, cpunks <cypherpunks at cpunks.org>
Subject: Re: stuxmemories
First I lol'd @ secret, then I wondered if you're looking to get one of
your very own "take a break" Borg cubes ;)

Collect the whole set, gotta get'em all!

 




From d0rk at warpmail.net  Tue Oct 13 01:43:28 2015
From: d0rk at warpmail.net (d0rk)
Date: Tue, 13 Oct 2015 01:43:28 -0700
Subject: Wikileaks releases TPP Intellectual Property chapter in full
In-Reply-To: <15060574318.276e.1f05807931e4ad06fc5cede0f4d78971@warpmail.net>
Message-ID: <20151013084312.ACE75C00018@frontend1.nyi.internal>

A few days old, but I didn't see it up on Cryptome.

I'm getting intermittent 403s when trying to access the main page at 
https://wikileaks.org/tpp-ip3/.  If so, try going to the first page of the 
document which gives you the option to download the entire pdf:
https://wikileaks.org/tpp-ip3/WikiLeaks-TPP-IP-Chapter/page-1.html

Direct link to pdf:
https://wikileaks.org/tpp-ip3/WikiLeaks-TPP-IP-Chapter/WikiLeaks-TPP-IP-Chapter-051015.pdf


-Shelley





From shelley at misanthropia.org  Tue Oct 13 01:53:31 2015
From: shelley at misanthropia.org (Shelley)
Date: Tue, 13 Oct 2015 01:53:31 -0700
Subject: Wikileaks releases TPP Intellectual Property chapter in full
In-Reply-To: <150605e5798.276e.1f05807931e4ad06fc5cede0f4d78971@warpmail.net>
References: <150605e5798.276e.1f05807931e4ad06fc5cede0f4d78971@warpmail.net>
Message-ID: <20151013085314.E3BE2C00019@frontend1.nyi.internal>

A few days old, but I didn't see it up on Cryptome.

I'm getting intermittent 403s when trying to access the main page at 
https://wikileaks.org/tpp-ip3/.  If so, try going to the first page of the 
document which gives you the option to download the entire pdf:
https://wikileaks.org/tpp-ip3/WikiLeaks-TPP-IP-Chapter/page-1.html

Direct link to pdf:
https://wikileaks.org/tpp-ip3/WikiLeaks-TPP-IP-Chapter/WikiLeaks-TPP-IP-Chapter-051015.pdf


-Shelley





From shelley at misanthropia.org  Tue Oct 13 10:50:53 2015
From: shelley at misanthropia.org (Shelley)
Date: Tue, 13 Oct 2015 10:50:53 -0700
Subject: Wikileaks releases TPP Intellectual Property chapter in full
In-Reply-To: <C58191D5-F2F2-4A55-9721-13102133B41C@openmailbox.org>
References: <150605e5798.276e.1f05807931e4ad06fc5cede0f4d78971@warpmail.net>
 <20151013085314.E3BE2C00019@frontend1.nyi.internal>
 <C58191D5-F2F2-4A55-9721-13102133B41C@openmailbox.org>
Message-ID: <20151013175037.9D85FC00021@frontend1.nyi.internal>

On October 13, 2015 3:14:22 AM Oshwm <oshwm at openmailbox.org> wrote:

> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
> Hash: SHA512
>
> My guess is the 403s are probs related to blacklisted Tor exit nodes :(


I'd wondered about that too, so before posting I tried it without Torbot 
(for science.)  Same thing.  Intermittent errors are not an uncommon 
occurrence at Wikileaks, especially right after posting new info of wide 
interest.  There are many mirrors for when the .org site is down as well.

-Shelley


>
> On 13 October 2015 09:53:31 BST, Shelley <shelley at misanthropia.org> wrote:
> >A few days old, but I didn't see it up on Cryptome.
> >
> >I'm getting intermittent 403s when trying to access the main page at
> >https://wikileaks.org/tpp-ip3/.  If so, try going to the first page of
> >the
> >document which gives you the option to download the entire pdf:
> >https://wikileaks.org/tpp-ip3/WikiLeaks-TPP-IP-Chapter/page-1.html
> >
> >Direct link to pdf:
> >https://wikileaks.org/tpp-ip3/WikiLeaks-TPP-IP-Chapter/WikiLeaks-TPP-IP-Chapter-051015.pdf
> >
> >
> >-Shelley
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From oshwm at openmailbox.org  Tue Oct 13 03:14:03 2015
From: oshwm at openmailbox.org (Oshwm)
Date: Tue, 13 Oct 2015 11:14:03 +0100
Subject: Wikileaks releases TPP Intellectual Property chapter in full
In-Reply-To: <20151013085314.E3BE2C00019@frontend1.nyi.internal>
References: <150605e5798.276e.1f05807931e4ad06fc5cede0f4d78971@warpmail.net>
 <20151013085314.E3BE2C00019@frontend1.nyi.internal>
Message-ID: <C58191D5-F2F2-4A55-9721-13102133B41C@openmailbox.org>

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA512

My guess is the 403s are probs related to blacklisted Tor exit nodes :(

On 13 October 2015 09:53:31 BST, Shelley <shelley at misanthropia.org> wrote:
>A few days old, but I didn't see it up on Cryptome.
>
>I'm getting intermittent 403s when trying to access the main page at
>https://wikileaks.org/tpp-ip3/.  If so, try going to the first page of
>the
>document which gives you the option to download the entire pdf:
>https://wikileaks.org/tpp-ip3/WikiLeaks-TPP-IP-Chapter/page-1.html
>
>Direct link to pdf:
>https://wikileaks.org/tpp-ip3/WikiLeaks-TPP-IP-Chapter/WikiLeaks-TPP-IP-Chapter-051015.pdf
>
>
>-Shelley
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From guninski at guninski.com  Tue Oct 13 01:43:06 2015
From: guninski at guninski.com (Georgi Guninski)
Date: Tue, 13 Oct 2015 11:43:06 +0300
Subject: How to minimize one's damage in case the usa kicks the bucket?
In-Reply-To: <56132B69.5040507@riseup.net>
References: <20151005085119.GA2489@sivokote.iziade.m$>
 <CAOsGNSQ0mXaD_9DorvTG-ddyQiKtfEKpF1eKxYDgtXmAqV7t7g@mail.gmail.com>
 <56125C89.2000304@pilobilus.net> <56132B69.5040507@riseup.net>
Message-ID: <20151013084306.GA3790@sivokote.iziade.m$>

On Tue, Oct 06, 2015 at 02:01:13AM +0000, odinn wrote:
> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
> Hash: SHA512
> 
> Hmm, well, since we are on this subject...
> 
> http://www.twitlonger.com/show/n_1sn3lqs
>

This mentions IMF meeting October 9-11.

Did something of importance happen on this meeting?

Quickly browsing news didn't suggest so.

On IMF's page the last SDR rate is from October 9.




From drwho at virtadpt.net  Tue Oct 13 13:35:41 2015
From: drwho at virtadpt.net (The Doctor)
Date: Tue, 13 Oct 2015 13:35:41 -0700
Subject: Trying to invoke Godwin's law for some threads on this so
 called list
In-Reply-To: <CANFTA09JD_u-jUs2Gg+RAbR7ken+i9wusaqRR3BO7Tn1uhRusQ@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CANFTA09JD_u-jUs2Gg+RAbR7ken+i9wusaqRR3BO7Tn1uhRusQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <20151013133541.45feea063419ab323a6f8cba@virtadpt.net>

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA512

On Mon, 12 Oct 2015 10:32:28 -0400
Michael Best <themikebest at gmail.com> wrote:

> I guess there has been *some* intolerance and personal attacks, though....

Am I the only person who finds it interesting that somebody would bring up the the stated mission of JTRIG (covert manipulation of communities, of which the Cypherpunks mailing list is one), and then somebody else immediately throws the Godwin's Law flag?

Anybody check the headers on that e-mail?  Did a couple of packets forget to make that left turn at Albuquerque?

- -- 
The Doctor [412/724/301/703/415] [ZS]

PGP: 0x807B17C1 / 7960 1CDC 85C9 0B63 8D9F  DD89 3BD8 FF2B 807B 17C1
WWW: https://drwho.virtadpt.net/

"Onward and evermore, Destination Eschaton!/Nowhere to hide, nowhere to run/from Alpha into Omega!"

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From coderman at gmail.com  Tue Oct 13 13:50:57 2015
From: coderman at gmail.com (coderman)
Date: Tue, 13 Oct 2015 13:50:57 -0700
Subject: FOIPA adventures
In-Reply-To: <CAJVRA1S45TEydVoKDxW9SfC0DKcSdxB_HfjrvcZQjU5uymfFOQ@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAJVRA1SaJpNaPQx=s_7VVM==ony2sH0aUG3w11cjNX6escSm8w@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAJVRA1TUfu40206TOzK2kBsgCvbgBYYXmyKZ3E5n4KQuoEtZyg@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAJVRA1QtgMky_hsDLsmFwiXcxE528bZaDOQsjTqqj4tR-dbGBQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAJVRA1RwoyoRs-REWnhGd8cHZM6EJvcziTUDXbU5A6TMigOT6A@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAJVRA1Rwaq1fvE8p-s1JwOANvMc7X2E75bx5eNd4KGJapt6Nuw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAJVRA1TU5Frg3WOJk+3ZFEH0QAFya5xZnwzCfCUE+hL1NhKUFg@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAJVRA1Q0SDo9Fj3KAU9vA3cxR2=7pwcdpO3Ex=yi6g2WtRAg6A@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAJVRA1Srrb08Z9XvG+rYq30p2E_MnhJA6ynOLpdT--6gCvwiyQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAJVRA1RXD2dr16TJZK-MPcJm7nR0Ov=Dp9i5Anf5hKNFs2hq7w@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAJVRA1S97DSPk0NBjgon1LS4HHuGtq_03dqFppUnWq+t61a41A@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAJVRA1SyW_wOUcFUo6STbiePO8HmLV9LgF-PCgugvuPRD_tKWA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAJVRA1QaYYF=hoSQiSd4SHNUj-W6hjEJDhy1KxR9CfFKDgNkew@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAJVRA1TvZxj_qz6_xK8h13LOD-5mE6iNvT9dnThf4ue0_=kY3Q@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAJVRA1RbeuzfiVAOqaZ15p8kr67jxcBoNMOrJkt3K86_=FuVXw@mail.gmail.com>
 <000701d0bcb7$94118e80$bc34ab80$@co.uk>
 <CAJVRA1SE1O-PqmkV8vX=q5j_xs-YFOpH=OLxSvwaT8BBvadQmA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAJVRA1TwM3Re8Tz6NPxp_CeY5C4K3QN+Ceo5VbW3JKMbBABv9g@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAJVRA1SbqTrEbUJ84rLFWdu6+psY5uUzu-ZsVfyUwoSaMRcGdQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAJVRA1RDN6HsLCbF_wsK+zARO9PaEn80R9FSGnWgGVF4XkbbpQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAJVRA1Rt2gKvgnM0MCiqf2Q4vJ8wWxm=KabcQXeBYSqn4zRvKg@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAJVRA1Q95CKTVahkfQeH_pwaGDcgJ-4OL2=9o5ckQrZLG8HeUA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAJVRA1SyX65OE9-7DQ1hP1fGWHxY8rvCqFXhKPu4Oy4o6wt0gg@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAJVRA1SgoLtLFS9AFf_d043AGDVbKp4djDtijDR+zfCRJ8twTA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAJVRA1SvN5ML7TQnOUqz78PhYv8aefz=k8-4fPOwv2uHUVF3_w@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAJVRA1Ry2EV7qaFHmZJ9cjm8-waCNBCzenO9BpqW+YKChEHX7w@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAJVRA1S5juVmB6Ouy0JWbdeJdj9yz0W6tKQDY2q_zi+AC461EA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAJVRA1SYO0ia4VGLwFwZFowkD75YR61MC1TNc1wzHbZtmhy1_w@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAJVRA1SqWMVy6m6KuiJWQQG_6XPWoB+86-p45PWKvfn8wg_jeA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAJVRA1RWaiCZtig6+Seyk-UN9M3h9+2iZ0Otnqb6n=AFcRAeRw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAJVRA1QzHeh=rs0hRf0sugLZdbXvAhK+2Yte5Tbt_Tnv5Tf8mg@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAJVRA1SdAW+36Z8yYTdSFTtz8S8U5aiELv5NiuXg5Rg-vaFYew@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAJVRA1Svk488ax6sd4oy52rfM_u_E1EuzhUAQt6cQ2Jy5yRx5g@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAJVRA1S4=X5P6hKnZu224GjseL5ws1vRm6Gk4gJ+DG06oLjaDA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAJVRA1RsgoKvADCcRz76vj1xjT+EQDB96tw7-sgg_pf+BGzA=A@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAJVRA1TOMYnBh0-B=uh6n2HsOsFdY+SKVG-=XqKi6WPNro++PA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAJVRA1Qao1qE2kBSbb_V5NPQ7PF--VFnYQpc=08wY2_ZURz4hg@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAJVRA1S45TEydVoKDxW9SfC0DKcSdxB_HfjrvcZQjU5uymfFOQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAJVRA1Rvi9h9UXTKrMB=2CYZLdidxE4arfkjgFxy0+ZH+xDbNA@mail.gmail.com>

NSA sent a Glomar for merely a count of P25 radios:
'''
Count of the number of P25 capable radio units or systems in use by,
or owned, or leased, or otherwise utilized by the agency. This
includes any of the Motorola ASTRO APX P25 portables, Vertex Standard
P25 portables, ICOM P25 portables, RELM Wireless P25 portables,
Motorola MOTOTRBO DMR radios, and Mobile P25 Radios. This includes any
P25 Phase 1 and Phase 2 capable radios. Please include yearly
break-down by radio model, if available. Please include processing
notes for this request, even if denied in part.
'''
 https://www.muckrock.com/foi/united-states-of-america-10/p25count-20176/

NSA continues to exhibit oversight avoidance competence beyond most
other agencies. :)


best regards,




From wirelesswarrior at safe-mail.net  Tue Oct 13 11:16:32 2015
From: wirelesswarrior at safe-mail.net (wirelesswarrior at safe-mail.net)
Date: Tue, 13 Oct 2015 14:16:32 -0400
Subject: Nominee officers and directors (was: Why cryptome sold weblogs...)
Message-ID: <N1B-GeesY_GcFi@Safe-mail.net>

The IRS mainly determines if you are a contractor, for taxation purposes, by your other gainful activities. If you work solely for one client they usually consider you an employee. I suspect the IRS classification also applies in non-taxation contexts.

 Original Message --------
From: odinn <odinn.cyberguerrilla at riseup.net>
To: wirelesswarrior at safe-mail.net, cypherpunks at cpunks.org
Subject: Re: Nominee officers and directors (was: Why cryptome sold weblogs...)
Date: Mon, 12 Oct 2015 03:21:20 +0000

> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
> Hash: SHA512
> 
> How does an individual become a "bona fide contractor" to avoid being
> "subject to either receiving or implementing court orders or NSLs" as
> you put it, and in what circumstances would I want to be a "bona fide
> contractor?"  I am certain not everyone would want to be one, for
> various reasons.
> 
> wirelesswarrior at safe-mail.net:
> > Despite almost two decades of cypherpunk activity I cannot fathom
> > why U.S. residents operate sites clearly in the cross-hairs of
> > intel agencies. Have they never heard of non-resident nominee
> > officers and directors? All U.S. resident people dealing with the
> > site should be bona fide contractors so they aren't subject to
> > either receiving or implementing court orders or NSLs.
> >




From shelley at misanthropia.org  Tue Oct 13 15:14:15 2015
From: shelley at misanthropia.org (Shelley)
Date: Tue, 13 Oct 2015 15:14:15 -0700
Subject: Wikileaks releases TPP Intellectual Property chapter in full
In-Reply-To: <561D7D71.70205@openmailbox.org>
References: <150605e5798.276e.1f05807931e4ad06fc5cede0f4d78971@warpmail.net>
 <20151013085314.E3BE2C00019@frontend1.nyi.internal>
 <C58191D5-F2F2-4A55-9721-13102133B41C@openmailbox.org>
 <20151013175037.9D85FC00021@frontend1.nyi.internal>
 <561D7D71.70205@openmailbox.org>
Message-ID: <20151013221359.97930C00014@frontend1.nyi.internal>

On October 13, 2015 2:54:35 PM oshwm <oshwm at openmailbox.org> wrote:

[snip]
> So nginx itself is functioning well enough to return the 403s and
> therefore my guess is that it is refusing some requests in order to
> avoid increasing load.
>

Right, that's what I meant.  Server load balancing issue, etc.  I mentioned 
the mirrors for convenience sake, not because the whole site was down (it 
obviously wasn't, 403 =/= 404)

-S





From admin at pilobilus.net  Tue Oct 13 14:27:50 2015
From: admin at pilobilus.net (Steve Kinney)
Date: Tue, 13 Oct 2015 17:27:50 -0400
Subject: Trying to invoke Godwin's law for some threads on this so called
 list
In-Reply-To: <20151013133541.45feea063419ab323a6f8cba@virtadpt.net>
References: <CANFTA09JD_u-jUs2Gg+RAbR7ken+i9wusaqRR3BO7Tn1uhRusQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <20151013133541.45feea063419ab323a6f8cba@virtadpt.net>
Message-ID: <561D7756.60700@pilobilus.net>

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1

Godwin's Law:  A convention which seeks to protect anyone or
anything that behaves like the NSDAP or Germany under Hitler from
criticism, by declaring comparisons between present day actors and
the Nazi regime categorically illegitimate.

My take:  Fuck a bunch of "Godwin's Law."  Call a spade a spade,
or even a goddamned SHOVEL if that fits the situation.

:o)




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From themikebest at gmail.com  Tue Oct 13 16:41:18 2015
From: themikebest at gmail.com (Michael Best)
Date: Tue, 13 Oct 2015 19:41:18 -0400
Subject: Wikileaks Cryptome mirror (yay!)
Message-ID: <CANFTA0_UXD3AUUrh+F3Sa8HPVqBnHENTZv1RmjJZW6YXKauK0Q@mail.gmail.com>

Glad to see there may be some new mirrors coming online! It's been too long
since the sabotage/quintessenz mirror days.


https://twitter.com/Cryptomeorg/status/654077043215347713

> <blockquote class="twitter-tweet" lang="en"><p lang="en" dir="ltr">.<a
> href="https://twitter.com/wikileaks">@wikileaks</a> You offered to host
> Cryptome Archives online. Plod gone, diplomatically-secure mailed to
> Assange today. <a href="http://t.co/ypjjdEumfE">pic.twitter.com/ypjjdEumfE</a></p>&mdash;
> Cryptome (@Cryptomeorg) <a href="
> https://twitter.com/Cryptomeorg/status/654077043215347713">October 13,
> 2015</a></blockquote>
> <script async src="//platform.twitter.com/widgets.js"
> charset="utf-8"></script>
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From odinn.cyberguerrilla at riseup.net  Tue Oct 13 14:37:11 2015
From: odinn.cyberguerrilla at riseup.net (odinn)
Date: Tue, 13 Oct 2015 21:37:11 +0000
Subject: How to minimize one's damage in case the usa kicks the bucket?
In-Reply-To: <20151013084306.GA3790@sivokote.iziade.m$>
References: <20151005085119.GA2489@sivokote.iziade.m$>
 <CAOsGNSQ0mXaD_9DorvTG-ddyQiKtfEKpF1eKxYDgtXmAqV7t7g@mail.gmail.com>
 <56125C89.2000304@pilobilus.net> <56132B69.5040507@riseup.net>
 <20151013084306.GA3790@sivokote.iziade.m$>
Message-ID: <561D7987.1020106@riseup.net>

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA512

The last update on the IMF's website regarding the currency amounts in
the SDRs (changes in the relative weights of four currencies in the
Special Drawing Rights (SDR) basket) was on December 30, 2010.

Source:

https://www.imf.org/external/np/tre/sdr/sdrbasket.htm

  It would seem it is time for an update, though as of Oct. 13, 2015
nothing remarkable seems to have been posted to their site.

I would continue to check non-standard sources for information
developing relating to SDRs (additions or changes in relative weights).

Example:

https://www.sovereignman.com/trends/three-obvious-signs-the-entire-syste
m-is-changing-17525/

Also note as stated in my twitlonger post
http://www.twitlonger.com/show/n_1sn3lqs

"The basket composition is reviewed every five years by the Executive
Board, or earlier if the IMF finds changed circumstances warrant an
earlier review, to ensure that it reflects the relative importance of
currencies in the world’s trading and financial systems. In the most
recent review (in November 2010), the weights of the currencies in the
SDR basket were revised based on the value of the exports of goods and
services, and the amount of reserves denominated in the respective
currencies that were held by other members of the IMF. These changes
became effective on January 1, 2011. In October 2011, the IMF
Executive Board discussed possible options for broadening the SDR
currency basket. Most directors held the view that the current
criteria for SDR basket selection remained appropriate. The next
review is currently scheduled to take place by the end of 2015."

In other words, if something hasn't happened yet to the SDRs and/or
the relative weight of currencies, it is likely to soon (even though
there are currently no further published meetings of the World Bank
Group and the International Monetary Fund before the end of this year
as shown at
https://www.imf.org/external/am/index.htm )

Georgi Guninski:
> On Tue, Oct 06, 2015 at 02:01:13AM +0000, odinn wrote:
>> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA512
>> 
>> Hmm, well, since we are on this subject...
>> 
>> http://www.twitlonger.com/show/n_1sn3lqs
>> 
> 
> This mentions IMF meeting October 9-11.
> 
> Did something of importance happen on this meeting?
> 
> Quickly browsing news didn't suggest so.
> 
> On IMF's page the last SDR rate is from October 9.
> 

- -- 
http://abis.io ~
"a protocol concept to enable decentralization
and expansion of a giving economy, and a new social good"
https://keybase.io/odinn
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From oshwm at openmailbox.org  Tue Oct 13 14:53:53 2015
From: oshwm at openmailbox.org (oshwm)
Date: Tue, 13 Oct 2015 22:53:53 +0100
Subject: Wikileaks releases TPP Intellectual Property chapter in full
In-Reply-To: <20151013175037.9D85FC00021@frontend1.nyi.internal>
References: <150605e5798.276e.1f05807931e4ad06fc5cede0f4d78971@warpmail.net>
 <20151013085314.E3BE2C00019@frontend1.nyi.internal>
 <C58191D5-F2F2-4A55-9721-13102133B41C@openmailbox.org>
 <20151013175037.9D85FC00021@frontend1.nyi.internal>
Message-ID: <561D7D71.70205@openmailbox.org>

My first thought was that an error in the 4xx range was an
authentication/authorisation error (henc the suggestion of blacklisted
Tor exits).

Error 403 states that your request was authenticated but the server
refused to return content to you.

This would be expected for blacklisted IPs but as you stated, using
clearweb IP addresses you got similar behaviour and thus would reduce
the chances that this is due to blacklisting.

The fact that you get a 403 means that the operating System is not
suffering any issues as it is passing the request up to the daemon
software (in this case nginx if the http headers are to be believed).

So nginx itself is functioning well enough to return the 403s and
therefore my guess is that it is refusing some requests in order to
avoid increasing load.

I would expect this is by design in order to avoid uncontrolled failure
of the daemon.

Of course, some of the above is guesswork and so I could be completely
wrong :D


On 13/10/15 18:50, Shelley wrote:
> On October 13, 2015 3:14:22 AM Oshwm <oshwm at openmailbox.org> wrote:
> 
> My guess is the 403s are probs related to blacklisted Tor exit nodes :(
> 
> 
>> I'd wondered about that too, so before posting I tried it without Torbot
>> (for science.)  Same thing.  Intermittent errors are not an uncommon
>> occurrence at Wikileaks, especially right after posting new info of wide
>> interest.  There are many mirrors for when the .org site is down as well.
> 
>> -Shelley
> 
> 
> 
> On 13 October 2015 09:53:31 BST, Shelley <shelley at misanthropia.org>
> wrote:
>>A few days old, but I didn't see it up on Cryptome.
> 
>>I'm getting intermittent 403s when trying to access the main page at
>>https://wikileaks.org/tpp-ip3/.  If so, try going to the first page of
>>the
>>document which gives you the option to download the entire pdf:
>>https://wikileaks.org/tpp-ip3/WikiLeaks-TPP-IP-Chapter/page-1.html
> 
>>Direct link to pdf:
>>https://wikileaks.org/tpp-ip3/WikiLeaks-TPP-IP-Chapter/WikiLeaks-TPP-IP-Chapter-051015.pdf
> 
> 
> 
>>-Shelley
>>
> 
> 

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From zen at freedbms.net  Tue Oct 13 23:33:15 2015
From: zen at freedbms.net (Zenaan Harkness)
Date: Wed, 14 Oct 2015 06:33:15 +0000
Subject: Trying to invoke Godwin's law for some threads on this so called
 list
In-Reply-To: <561D7756.60700@pilobilus.net>
References: <CANFTA09JD_u-jUs2Gg+RAbR7ken+i9wusaqRR3BO7Tn1uhRusQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <20151013133541.45feea063419ab323a6f8cba@virtadpt.net>
 <561D7756.60700@pilobilus.net>
Message-ID: <CAOsGNSRbDRDwTYQ5oDymvxj8FjhnTVWp-OU=D8QULbSguuSEfg@mail.gmail.com>

On 10/13/15, Steve Kinney <admin at pilobilus.net> wrote:
> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
> Hash: SHA1
>
> Godwin's Law:  A convention which seeks to protect anyone or
> anything that behaves like the NSDAP or Germany under Hitler from
> criticism, by declaring comparisons between present day actors and
> the Nazi regime categorically illegitimate.
>
> My take:  Fuck a bunch of "Godwin's Law."  Call a spade a spade,
> or even a goddamned SHOVEL if that fits the situation.
>
> :o)

Whoa there! Careful now, The Ministry of Truth may come knocking.

First rule of The Ministry - you do NOT question any implied
requirement to politically correct speech.

<KNOCK KNOCK KNOCK!>

Shit ... gotta g..schchztshzglg




From admin at pilobilus.net  Wed Oct 14 06:19:02 2015
From: admin at pilobilus.net (Steve Kinney)
Date: Wed, 14 Oct 2015 09:19:02 -0400
Subject: Edward Snowden BBC interview
In-Reply-To: <20151014105454.GB2599@sivokote.iziade.m$>
References: <CAOsGNSTEGx00yiH1crE+KGvYo0q+P5brnWKshez4DXVRYEC_Qw@mail.gmail.com>
 <20151014105454.GB2599@sivokote.iziade.m$>
Message-ID: <561E5646.4070801@pilobilus.net>

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1

On 10/14/2015 06:54 AM, Georgi Guninski wrote:
> On Wed, Oct 14, 2015 at 10:09:30AM +0000, Zenaan Harkness 
> wrote:
>> Edward Snowden: 'They've Said They Wouldn't Torture Me...' :
>>  
>> http://russia-insider.com/en/politics/edward-snowden-theyve-said-
they-wouldnt-torture-me/ri10351
>>
>>
>>
>> 
Also: http://www.bbc.com/news/uk-34444233
> 
> http://www.theregister.co.uk/2015/10/06/snowden_bbc_interview_anal
ysis/
>
>
> 
Edward Snowden denies making a deal with the Russian secret service
> --- Former NSA contractor Edward Snowden has not done a deal 
> with the Russian state security agency to acquire political 
> asylum, the whistleblower revealed in a television version of
> a BBC interview. ---
> 
> I would be very surprised if the russians don't have much more 
> of his dump than journos have, even if they don't have "formal 
> deal".

I would be surprised if he did deliver docs to the Russians.  Now
that we have had a better look at him, it seems that our Mr.
Snowden is a bit of a fiend for OpSec.  As such, I can't see him
carrying red hot docs, or the means of accessing them, around with
him after confirmed delivery to Greenwald & Co.  In the first
place, doing so would make him a more valuable target for multiple
State actors.  Second, it would provide a big reward to anyone who
might have managed to snatch him and turn him inside out; if he
had nothing, it would at least provide him the satisfaction of
knowing that his captors got nothing of value out of him.

Since it's very credible that Russia was not his intended
destination, the concept of buying his way in with classified
information (a la Lee Oswald) just doesn't fit.  Russia's handling
of Snowden so far has been consistent with their propaganda
objective of appearing to be morally superior to their US/NATO
adversaries in Cold War II.  One might also note that Snowden has
always spoken politely of his Russian hosts but has not made any
overtly pro-Russian propaganda broadcasts.

:o)


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From zen at freedbms.net  Wed Oct 14 03:09:30 2015
From: zen at freedbms.net (Zenaan Harkness)
Date: Wed, 14 Oct 2015 10:09:30 +0000
Subject: Edward Snowden BBC interview
Message-ID: <CAOsGNSTEGx00yiH1crE+KGvYo0q+P5brnWKshez4DXVRYEC_Qw@mail.gmail.com>

Edward Snowden: 'They've Said They Wouldn't Torture Me...' :
http://russia-insider.com/en/politics/edward-snowden-theyve-said-they-wouldnt-torture-me/ri10351

Also: http://www.bbc.com/news/uk-34444233




From admin at pilobilus.net  Wed Oct 14 08:27:45 2015
From: admin at pilobilus.net (Steve Kinney)
Date: Wed, 14 Oct 2015 11:27:45 -0400
Subject: How to minimize one's damage in case the usa kicks the bucket?
In-Reply-To: <CAGRDzQVCKcr_SQODUY=T2+D7LScPrYdLwoLi_A-7LbUr1r3S6A@mail.gmail.com>
References: <20151005085119.GA2489@sivokote.iziade.m$>
 <561AF3A2.5030206@riseup.net>
 <CAOsGNSStTuCy6m+r9Lj40Du6e5_Ud4c5rO6fiFGc2MyMWaNzDA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAGRDzQVCKcr_SQODUY=T2+D7LScPrYdLwoLi_A-7LbUr1r3S6A@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <561E7471.7000906@pilobilus.net>

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1

On 10/12/2015 12:43 AM, Cari Machet wrote:
> Belief is cowardice
> 
> I dont believe in belief
> 
> Suggestion: go outside of what you have been told is the
> capacity of your identity by the parasitic state and ask
> questions of how many ways you can create shift every second of
> your life in a direct action and place ... just asking the
> questions changes conciousness levels
> 
> To remain in willful disconnect from questioning self is the
> state apparatus inside each

This reinforces my own advice, to build trust relationships and a
base of relevant skills and experience in the real world.

Altruism, mentioned earlier, is hard wired into that; otherwise,
you don't get the trust relationships or the assistance necessary
to get relevant skills and experience.  Natural selection has
given humans a strong predisposition for sharing and mutual aid;
it takes generations to beat it out of a population, and even then
it just keeps popping right back up.

Everyone's a politician on the make; the more honest ones call
themselves anarchists.

:o)



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From shelley at misanthropia.org  Wed Oct 14 11:45:22 2015
From: shelley at misanthropia.org (Shelley)
Date: Wed, 14 Oct 2015 11:45:22 -0700
Subject: Wikileaks releases TPP Intellectual Property chapter in full
In-Reply-To: <4130914.tFvhnZc32o@lapuntu>
References: <150605e5798.276e.1f05807931e4ad06fc5cede0f4d78971@warpmail.net>
 <561D7D71.70205@openmailbox.org>
 <20151013221359.97930C00014@frontend1.nyi.internal>
 <4130914.tFvhnZc32o@lapuntu>
Message-ID: <20151014184505.B48BBC00028@frontend1.nyi.internal>

On October 14, 2015 11:27:41 AM rysiek <rysiek at hackerspace.pl> wrote:

> Dnia wtorek, 13 października 2015 15:14:15 Shelley pisze:
> > On October 13, 2015 2:54:35 PM oshwm <oshwm at openmailbox.org> wrote:
> >
> > [snip]
> >
> > > So nginx itself is functioning well enough to return the 403s and
> > > therefore my guess is that it is refusing some requests in order to
> > > avoid increasing load.
> >
> > Right, that's what I meant.  Server load balancing issue, etc.  I mentioned
> > the mirrors for convenience sake, not because the whole site was down (it
> > obviously wasn't, 403 =/= 404)
>
> 404 != "site is down" ;)
>

My brain and my fingers aren't always working in tandem these days.  I 
meant that if i could access the document page by page, it is obvious that 
the entire thing wasn't being returned as forbidden and likely not an exit 
node blacklisting issue.

Mirrors are also handy for "not found" errors.  I should be more clear in 
what I type (or not reply when I'm distracted)

But I also know you knew what I meant, don't make me bite you ;)

-S







From guninski at guninski.com  Wed Oct 14 03:47:07 2015
From: guninski at guninski.com (Georgi Guninski)
Date: Wed, 14 Oct 2015 13:47:07 +0300
Subject: GCHQ can and will spy on politicos, rules tribunal
Message-ID: <20151014104707.GA2599@sivokote.iziade.m$>

http://www.theregister.co.uk/2015/10/14/wilson_doctrine_gchq_can_will_spy_politicos/
The Investigatory Powers Tribunal (IPT) has ruled that GCHQ is allowed
to collect the communications of MPs.




From l at odewijk.nl  Wed Oct 14 04:52:37 2015
From: l at odewijk.nl (=?UTF-8?Q?Lodewijk_andr=C3=A9_de_la_porte?=)
Date: Wed, 14 Oct 2015 13:52:37 +0200
Subject: USA government debt ceiling
In-Reply-To: <CAOsGNSTiRkhAP1z89uXUVOidUR2U3wNaFqZgiWZsCZxT=bi9KA@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAOsGNSSpW6H5POz=xF5NpNc6Xvie_XoTStKtgDnThrE5Ys9Uqw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAOsGNSR9tXKM9+nPvJgT_7qESJPSJ9JuXWyeNFqBoPUCFEY3Bg@mail.gmail.com>
 <20151005124251.GC2489@sivokote.iziade.m$>
 <CAOsGNSSvyQc8LGkoYMVWpqXB0QCj=gOeoXrPXL7Max=Wtu5NaQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <20151011070745.GA2610@sivokote.iziade.m$>
 <CAHWD2rKMAE7tH+t4B-P9XEPmTSRsuqEmQ8NVQKOFi2ww3uh_CQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAOsGNSTiRkhAP1z89uXUVOidUR2U3wNaFqZgiWZsCZxT=bi9KA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAHWD2rJevZKwSCs0YWK-rcKPG9Utcfc93knmodQbEtgnBfx0Sw@mail.gmail.com>

2015-10-11 14:17 GMT+02:00 Zenaan Harkness <zen at freedbms.net>:

> > Counting derivatives as debt is definitely 100% misguided. They're also
>
> Futures are derivatives, and potentially very large debts (or gains).
> This is the nature of leverage - a small outlay, a much larger return
> or loss. Although the loss is not certain (of course), it is possible,
> thus...
>

If you're panscient (know the current state of the world) you could
determine the actual risk precisely. Then you multiply value * risk, and
you know the likely debt, or debt equivalent. If the gamblers are even a
bit conservative (and correct) you will likely find the debt is negative -
these derivatives will probably be positive assets. Why else have them?

Nobody's panscient, but the people that make these bets try to be. They
stake their wealth on their correct guessing. I'd say that gives them the
right incentives.

It's also quite likely that bets are both ways (one person thinks x,
another thinks y), limited in their ability to lose money (stop loss
present), etc, etc. Simply counting them as debt is /wrong/.


> > used to amplify market swings - make or lose more with less motion,
> > therefore the oversizedness is not surprising. It makes markets more
> > accurate, liquid and reliable (except f-ups get amplified too sometimes).
>
> ... that's the point ... when the gambles go the wrong way, for too
> many people, then sometimes very large entities go belly up, as the
> above article gives examples of.


The more competitive you need to be, the riskier your bets need to be. You
can abide with little risk, or fly high with intense gambles. Try not to
burn your wings.


> When this reaches a tipping point,
> there is systemic collapse as we have seen historically. Then those
> large entities ("too big to fail") can be "bailed out" by the tax
> payer, or "bailed in" (the newest legislation here in Australia, and
> possibly in US too) by simply grabbing some portion (up to 100%) of
> all depositor's deposits.
>

This is not the right thing to do.

If you remove risk, the system will not be balanced. You will create a
system that is overly risk-seeking. If you remove the penalty for taking
huge huge gambles, why not stake it? Reduce the penalty for failed bets and
you (directly) increase the amount of failed bets.

Having this advantage only apply to large corps is an even greater
disturbance in the market. Why in gods name would you give big companies
incentive to fail? Larger risks, larger profits. Countries as a whole are
running on their economic hindlegs - running because they can no longer
seem to walk.


> If the big entity insurance (bail in or bail out) cannot compensate
> adequately for the "debts", then the systemic collapse is a
> depression/ full reset, rather than just a recession.
>

Recession is when our administrative hacks are realigned with reality.
Sometimes causing so much systemic shock that it affects productivity,
which is real rather than just administrative.

If we all put our faith in a system that did not work, then we deserve the
consequences and should strife for greater resilience. Now we've just
doubled down on our faith. Very all or nothing.


> Whether one names derivatives as debt or not is immateriel - they
> amplify shit when shit happens.


Unless we give the general public a reason to be critical of financial
instruments they will not be critical of financial instruments. If there's
no care for something it goes wrong. We're moving towards "communism
without compassion" - a world where you're responsible for yourself and
your financial situation, but government makes it impossible for the sake
of national interests*. An evil system without evil actors. If we're going
to plan our economy together, collaboratively, then why do we need to be so
sneaky about it?

It'd all be fun and games if it weren't my taxes that're being used against
my best interests. Don't think there's much helping it, except paying the
least taxes possible. (And who pays more tax than he needs to, anyway?)

* eg: we have national insurance for salaries, so they may be paid despite
bankruptcy. Employees do not suffer even though their labor was bad for
society (as determined by the markets). At least, we'd know if the markets
weren't already disturbed beyond realism. This leads to companies being
less risk adverse than they should be, which leads to a disturbed market in
which a legitimate, fair, balanced, honest company cannot operate
profitably. Everyone suffers.

P.S.: there's plenty of legitimate reasons for how things are, I'm not
saying "it's done all wrong" - it's not. By most it's a best effort. This
relates to "evil system without evil actors", which I think is often the
best way to understand a systemic problem. (it also somewhat limits
paranoia)
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From guninski at guninski.com  Wed Oct 14 03:54:54 2015
From: guninski at guninski.com (Georgi Guninski)
Date: Wed, 14 Oct 2015 13:54:54 +0300
Subject: Edward Snowden BBC interview
In-Reply-To: <CAOsGNSTEGx00yiH1crE+KGvYo0q+P5brnWKshez4DXVRYEC_Qw@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAOsGNSTEGx00yiH1crE+KGvYo0q+P5brnWKshez4DXVRYEC_Qw@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <20151014105454.GB2599@sivokote.iziade.m$>

On Wed, Oct 14, 2015 at 10:09:30AM +0000, Zenaan Harkness wrote:
> Edward Snowden: 'They've Said They Wouldn't Torture Me...' :
> http://russia-insider.com/en/politics/edward-snowden-theyve-said-they-wouldnt-torture-me/ri10351
> 
> Also: http://www.bbc.com/news/uk-34444233

http://www.theregister.co.uk/2015/10/06/snowden_bbc_interview_analysis/
Edward Snowden denies making a deal with the Russian secret service
---
Former NSA contractor Edward Snowden has not done a deal with the
Russian state security agency to acquire political asylum, the
whistleblower revealed in a television version of a BBC interview.
---

I would be very surprised if the russians don't have much more of his
dump than journos have, even if they don't have "formal deal".




From guninski at guninski.com  Wed Oct 14 05:22:54 2015
From: guninski at guninski.com (Georgi Guninski)
Date: Wed, 14 Oct 2015 15:22:54 +0300
Subject: USA government debt ceiling
In-Reply-To: <CAHWD2rKMAE7tH+t4B-P9XEPmTSRsuqEmQ8NVQKOFi2ww3uh_CQ@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAOsGNSSpW6H5POz=xF5NpNc6Xvie_XoTStKtgDnThrE5Ys9Uqw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAOsGNSR9tXKM9+nPvJgT_7qESJPSJ9JuXWyeNFqBoPUCFEY3Bg@mail.gmail.com>
 <20151005124251.GC2489@sivokote.iziade.m$>
 <CAOsGNSSvyQc8LGkoYMVWpqXB0QCj=gOeoXrPXL7Max=Wtu5NaQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <20151011070745.GA2610@sivokote.iziade.m$>
 <CAHWD2rKMAE7tH+t4B-P9XEPmTSRsuqEmQ8NVQKOFi2ww3uh_CQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <20151014122254.GC2599@sivokote.iziade.m$>

On Sun, Oct 11, 2015 at 01:31:26PM +0200, Lodewijk andré de la porte wrote:
> > http://english.pravda.ru/business/finance/08-10-2015/132278-us_treasury_swap-0/
> > >
> > > "There are $630 trillion in outstanding derivatives globally according
> > > to the Bank of International Settlements (BIS) in Switzerland. That
> > > is, about $630 trillion in bets placed on about $100 trillion in
> > > stocks and bonds."
> > >
> >
> > Interesting (but doesn't seem citable reference to me).
> >
> > How the financial market is still working?
> >
> > And how such bets survived so far?
> 
> 
> Counting derivatives as debt is definitely 100% misguided. They're also

Maybe "Counting derivatives as debt" is indeed not correct.

But gambling with something you don't have is serious potential debt
problem.

Especially, as you note, if the shit is amplified (which is likely in a
ponzi scheme like this).

Somewhat related (I don't claim it is the same):

https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Barings_Bank&oldid=684442660
---
The bank collapsed in 1995 after suffering losses of £827 million ($1.3
billion) resulting from poor speculative investments, primarily in
futures contracts, conducted by an employee named Nick Leeson working at
its office in Singapore.
---





From juan.g71 at gmail.com  Wed Oct 14 11:41:06 2015
From: juan.g71 at gmail.com (Juan)
Date: Wed, 14 Oct 2015 15:41:06 -0300
Subject: How to minimize one's damage in case the usa kicks the bucket?
In-Reply-To: <561E7471.7000906@pilobilus.net>
References: <20151005085119.GA2489@sivokote.iziade.m$>
 <561AF3A2.5030206@riseup.net>
 <CAOsGNSStTuCy6m+r9Lj40Du6e5_Ud4c5rO6fiFGc2MyMWaNzDA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAGRDzQVCKcr_SQODUY=T2+D7LScPrYdLwoLi_A-7LbUr1r3S6A@mail.gmail.com>
 <561E7471.7000906@pilobilus.net>
Message-ID: <561ea062.4cc48c0a.331ab.ffff9acd@mx.google.com>

On Wed, 14 Oct 2015 11:27:45 -0400
Steve Kinney <admin at pilobilus.net> wrote:

>  Natural selection has
> given humans a strong predisposition for sharing and mutual aid;

	natural selection has bred a population of psycho-predators
	and a majority unable to defend itself. 

	(i'm not a fan of materialism)
	


> it takes generations to beat it out of a population, and even then
> it just keeps popping right back up.
> 
> Everyone's a politician on the make; the more honest ones call
> themselves anarchists.
> 
> :o)
> 
> 




From juan.g71 at gmail.com  Wed Oct 14 11:48:54 2015
From: juan.g71 at gmail.com (Juan)
Date: Wed, 14 Oct 2015 15:48:54 -0300
Subject: USA government debt ceiling
In-Reply-To: <CAGRDzQUrhpPL2WJDc1e=xs91GiMM0y4p3UPuhMr3FXLzsGsivA@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAOsGNSSpW6H5POz=xF5NpNc6Xvie_XoTStKtgDnThrE5Ys9Uqw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAOsGNSR9tXKM9+nPvJgT_7qESJPSJ9JuXWyeNFqBoPUCFEY3Bg@mail.gmail.com>
 <20151005124251.GC2489@sivokote.iziade.m$>
 <CAOsGNSSvyQc8LGkoYMVWpqXB0QCj=gOeoXrPXL7Max=Wtu5NaQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <20151011070745.GA2610@sivokote.iziade.m$>
 <CAHWD2rKMAE7tH+t4B-P9XEPmTSRsuqEmQ8NVQKOFi2ww3uh_CQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <20151014122254.GC2599@sivokote.iziade.m$>
 <CAGRDzQUBoV9qMUf845rHztVhavo9FWkPP=qpY4T_C-P9RX=T8A@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAGRDzQVGsk3fHSW147QO0QcWadVzfqHd6rF4qby7eYj5+c-wxw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAGRDzQUrhpPL2WJDc1e=xs91GiMM0y4p3UPuhMr3FXLzsGsivA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <561ea237.08618c0a.a98b3.3123@mx.google.com>

On Wed, 14 Oct 2015 19:28:48 +0300
Cari Machet <carimachet at gmail.com> wrote:

> http://www.investopedia.com/articles/investing/040115/reasons-why-china-buys-us-treasury-bonds.asp

	that article is 100% americunt fascist bullshit.

	"The Bottom Line : this type of economic arrangement is actually
	a win-win for both nations. " 

	translation : the arrangement benefits both GOVERNMENTS and
	screws the serfs. 

 




From carimachet at gmail.com  Wed Oct 14 07:41:19 2015
From: carimachet at gmail.com (Cari Machet)
Date: Wed, 14 Oct 2015 17:41:19 +0300
Subject: USA government debt ceiling
In-Reply-To: <20151014122254.GC2599@sivokote.iziade.m$>
References: <CAOsGNSSpW6H5POz=xF5NpNc6Xvie_XoTStKtgDnThrE5Ys9Uqw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAOsGNSR9tXKM9+nPvJgT_7qESJPSJ9JuXWyeNFqBoPUCFEY3Bg@mail.gmail.com>
 <20151005124251.GC2489@sivokote.iziade.m$>
 <CAOsGNSSvyQc8LGkoYMVWpqXB0QCj=gOeoXrPXL7Max=Wtu5NaQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <20151011070745.GA2610@sivokote.iziade.m$>
 <CAHWD2rKMAE7tH+t4B-P9XEPmTSRsuqEmQ8NVQKOFi2ww3uh_CQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <20151014122254.GC2599@sivokote.iziade.m$>
Message-ID: <CAGRDzQUBoV9qMUf845rHztVhavo9FWkPP=qpY4T_C-P9RX=T8A@mail.gmail.com>

China is pulling away from buying the debt of the US and hence pulling away
from the dollar as its backed exchange rate ... meaning when a country
holds in its banks enough US currency so that it can exchange the currency
easily it is backing its money w the US dollar BECAUSE it cant then go to
the US and say ok give me chinese yen ... it just has to hold the dollar in
its system and therefor ownes the debt
Presently the chinese see the futility of the system and are shifting i
cant remember into what exactly ... will dig that up when i get a minute
but they dont want to be basing econ on debt papers anymore

The ever fucker nixon ... with dick cheney in his cabinet took the dollar
off the gold standard and kind of fucked the world ... didnt warn anyone or
nothin just did it

In india the government just ask the people to loan their banks personal
items of gold ... people buy it here as a personal investment like real
estate such a contrary notion than the US
On Oct 14, 2015 3:30 PM, "Georgi Guninski" <guninski at guninski.com> wrote:

> On Sun, Oct 11, 2015 at 01:31:26PM +0200, Lodewijk andré de la porte wrote:
> > >
> http://english.pravda.ru/business/finance/08-10-2015/132278-us_treasury_swap-0/
> > > >
> > > > "There are $630 trillion in outstanding derivatives globally
> according
> > > > to the Bank of International Settlements (BIS) in Switzerland. That
> > > > is, about $630 trillion in bets placed on about $100 trillion in
> > > > stocks and bonds."
> > > >
> > >
> > > Interesting (but doesn't seem citable reference to me).
> > >
> > > How the financial market is still working?
> > >
> > > And how such bets survived so far?
> >
> >
> > Counting derivatives as debt is definitely 100% misguided. They're also
>
> Maybe "Counting derivatives as debt" is indeed not correct.
>
> But gambling with something you don't have is serious potential debt
> problem.
>
> Especially, as you note, if the shit is amplified (which is likely in a
> ponzi scheme like this).
>
> Somewhat related (I don't claim it is the same):
>
> https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Barings_Bank&oldid=684442660
> ---
> The bank collapsed in 1995 after suffering losses of £827 million ($1.3
> billion) resulting from poor speculative investments, primarily in
> futures contracts, conducted by an employee named Nick Leeson working at
> its office in Singapore.
> ---
>
>
>
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From carimachet at gmail.com  Wed Oct 14 08:53:20 2015
From: carimachet at gmail.com (Cari Machet)
Date: Wed, 14 Oct 2015 18:53:20 +0300
Subject: USA government debt ceiling
In-Reply-To: <CAGRDzQUBoV9qMUf845rHztVhavo9FWkPP=qpY4T_C-P9RX=T8A@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAOsGNSSpW6H5POz=xF5NpNc6Xvie_XoTStKtgDnThrE5Ys9Uqw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAOsGNSR9tXKM9+nPvJgT_7qESJPSJ9JuXWyeNFqBoPUCFEY3Bg@mail.gmail.com>
 <20151005124251.GC2489@sivokote.iziade.m$>
 <CAOsGNSSvyQc8LGkoYMVWpqXB0QCj=gOeoXrPXL7Max=Wtu5NaQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <20151011070745.GA2610@sivokote.iziade.m$>
 <CAHWD2rKMAE7tH+t4B-P9XEPmTSRsuqEmQ8NVQKOFi2ww3uh_CQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <20151014122254.GC2599@sivokote.iziade.m$>
 <CAGRDzQUBoV9qMUf845rHztVhavo9FWkPP=qpY4T_C-P9RX=T8A@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAGRDzQVGsk3fHSW147QO0QcWadVzfqHd6rF4qby7eYj5+c-wxw@mail.gmail.com>

http://www.wsj.com/articles/once-the-biggest-buyer-china-starts-dumping-u-s-government-debt-1444196065

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reserve_currency

On Wed, Oct 14, 2015 at 5:41 PM, Cari Machet <carimachet at gmail.com> wrote:

> China is pulling away from buying the debt of the US and hence pulling
> away from the dollar as its backed exchange rate ... meaning when a country
> holds in its banks enough US currency so that it can exchange the currency
> easily it is backing its money w the US dollar BECAUSE it cant then go to
> the US and say ok give me chinese yen ... it just has to hold the dollar in
> its system and therefor ownes the debt
> Presently the chinese see the futility of the system and are shifting i
> cant remember into what exactly ... will dig that up when i get a minute
> but they dont want to be basing econ on debt papers anymore
>
> The ever fucker nixon ... with dick cheney in his cabinet took the dollar
> off the gold standard and kind of fucked the world ... didnt warn anyone or
> nothin just did it
>
> In india the government just ask the people to loan their banks personal
> items of gold ... people buy it here as a personal investment like real
> estate such a contrary notion than the US
> On Oct 14, 2015 3:30 PM, "Georgi Guninski" <guninski at guninski.com> wrote:
>
>> On Sun, Oct 11, 2015 at 01:31:26PM +0200, Lodewijk andré de la porte
>> wrote:
>> > >
>> http://english.pravda.ru/business/finance/08-10-2015/132278-us_treasury_swap-0/
>> > > >
>> > > > "There are $630 trillion in outstanding derivatives globally
>> according
>> > > > to the Bank of International Settlements (BIS) in Switzerland. That
>> > > > is, about $630 trillion in bets placed on about $100 trillion in
>> > > > stocks and bonds."
>> > > >
>> > >
>> > > Interesting (but doesn't seem citable reference to me).
>> > >
>> > > How the financial market is still working?
>> > >
>> > > And how such bets survived so far?
>> >
>> >
>> > Counting derivatives as debt is definitely 100% misguided. They're also
>>
>> Maybe "Counting derivatives as debt" is indeed not correct.
>>
>> But gambling with something you don't have is serious potential debt
>> problem.
>>
>> Especially, as you note, if the shit is amplified (which is likely in a
>> ponzi scheme like this).
>>
>> Somewhat related (I don't claim it is the same):
>>
>> https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Barings_Bank&oldid=684442660
>> ---
>> The bank collapsed in 1995 after suffering losses of £827 million ($1.3
>> billion) resulting from poor speculative investments, primarily in
>> futures contracts, conducted by an employee named Nick Leeson working at
>> its office in Singapore.
>> ---
>>
>>
>>


-- 
Cari Machet
NYC 646-436-7795
carimachet at gmail.com
AIM carismachet
Syria +963-099 277 3243
Amman +962 077 636 9407
Berlin +49 152 11779219
Reykjavik +354 894 8650
Twitter: @carimachet <https://twitter.com/carimachet>

7035 690E 5E47 41D4 B0E5 B3D1 AF90 49D6 BE09 2187

Ruh-roh, this is now necessary: This email is intended only for the
addressee(s) and may contain confidential information. If you are not the
intended recipient, you are hereby notified that any use of this
information, dissemination, distribution, or copying of this email without
permission is strictly prohibited.
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From dal at riseup.net  Wed Oct 14 16:57:58 2015
From: dal at riseup.net (Douglas Lucas)
Date: Wed, 14 Oct 2015 18:57:58 -0500
Subject: How to minimize one's damage in case the usa kicks the bucket?
In-Reply-To: <CAOsGNSStTuCy6m+r9Lj40Du6e5_Ud4c5rO6fiFGc2MyMWaNzDA@mail.gmail.com>
References: <20151005085119.GA2489@sivokote.iziade.m$>
 <561AF3A2.5030206@riseup.net>
 <CAOsGNSStTuCy6m+r9Lj40Du6e5_Ud4c5rO6fiFGc2MyMWaNzDA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <561EEC06.4000205@riseup.net>



On 10/11/2015 08:02 PM, Zenaan Harkness wrote:
> On 10/11/15, Douglas Lucas <dal at riseup.net> wrote:
>> Reviving this thread. Where's the altruism in "how to minimize one's
>> damage"? Why's the model here for resisting economic oppression a
>> survivalist hiding in an encrypted bunker, rather than the people of
>> Burkina Faso using sticks and rocks (not cryptography) to force
>> oligarchs out of their country? In Mexico they were recently burning
>> polling stations, but we were discussing hoarding Bitcoin to ensure our
>> self-interest? Where's the idealism in such selfishness?
> 
> Basically I agree, please feel free to make suggestions :)

There are specific ops I could promote (#OpDeathEaters, for example),
but I think maybe this question should be answered in a more general
way. And I think what we should often do is, help the victims of
whichever injustice attain the goals they're trying to reach. In other
words, let the victims choose and lead toward the objectives. So, to
take a current example, Doctors Without Borders, having had their Kunduz
hospital just bombed, wants an IHFFC investigation. How can we help with
that? And so on for other injustices. A caveat being that most people,
in the US anyway, can't think outside the box of capitalism, but trying
to reform capitalism isn't the answer.




From juan.g71 at gmail.com  Wed Oct 14 15:02:40 2015
From: juan.g71 at gmail.com (Juan)
Date: Wed, 14 Oct 2015 19:02:40 -0300
Subject: USA government debt ceiling
In-Reply-To: <CAHWD2rJevZKwSCs0YWK-rcKPG9Utcfc93knmodQbEtgnBfx0Sw@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAOsGNSSpW6H5POz=xF5NpNc6Xvie_XoTStKtgDnThrE5Ys9Uqw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAOsGNSR9tXKM9+nPvJgT_7qESJPSJ9JuXWyeNFqBoPUCFEY3Bg@mail.gmail.com>
 <20151005124251.GC2489@sivokote.iziade.m$>
 <CAOsGNSSvyQc8LGkoYMVWpqXB0QCj=gOeoXrPXL7Max=Wtu5NaQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <20151011070745.GA2610@sivokote.iziade.m$>
 <CAHWD2rKMAE7tH+t4B-P9XEPmTSRsuqEmQ8NVQKOFi2ww3uh_CQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAOsGNSTiRkhAP1z89uXUVOidUR2U3wNaFqZgiWZsCZxT=bi9KA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAHWD2rJevZKwSCs0YWK-rcKPG9Utcfc93knmodQbEtgnBfx0Sw@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <561ecfa3.1331370a.f1c34.519a@mx.google.com>

On Wed, 14 Oct 2015 13:52:37 +0200
Lodewijk andré de la porte <l at odewijk.nl> wrote:

> An evil system
> without evil actors. 


	Priceless. 

> 
> P.S.: there's plenty of legitimate reasons for how things are, I'm not
> saying "it's done all wrong" - it's not.


	So out of curiosity, what kind of brainwashing is needed to put
	a thinking person in such as a sorry state as yours? 

	Or perhaps you never were a thinking person to begin with?



> By most it's a best effort.
> This relates to "evil system without evil actors", which I think is
> often the best way to understand a systemic problem. (it also
> somewhat limits paranoia)

	Sure, buddy, sure.







From carimachet at gmail.com  Wed Oct 14 09:28:48 2015
From: carimachet at gmail.com (Cari Machet)
Date: Wed, 14 Oct 2015 19:28:48 +0300
Subject: USA government debt ceiling
In-Reply-To: <CAGRDzQVGsk3fHSW147QO0QcWadVzfqHd6rF4qby7eYj5+c-wxw@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAOsGNSSpW6H5POz=xF5NpNc6Xvie_XoTStKtgDnThrE5Ys9Uqw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAOsGNSR9tXKM9+nPvJgT_7qESJPSJ9JuXWyeNFqBoPUCFEY3Bg@mail.gmail.com>
 <20151005124251.GC2489@sivokote.iziade.m$>
 <CAOsGNSSvyQc8LGkoYMVWpqXB0QCj=gOeoXrPXL7Max=Wtu5NaQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <20151011070745.GA2610@sivokote.iziade.m$>
 <CAHWD2rKMAE7tH+t4B-P9XEPmTSRsuqEmQ8NVQKOFi2ww3uh_CQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <20151014122254.GC2599@sivokote.iziade.m$>
 <CAGRDzQUBoV9qMUf845rHztVhavo9FWkPP=qpY4T_C-P9RX=T8A@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAGRDzQVGsk3fHSW147QO0QcWadVzfqHd6rF4qby7eYj5+c-wxw@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAGRDzQUrhpPL2WJDc1e=xs91GiMM0y4p3UPuhMr3FXLzsGsivA@mail.gmail.com>

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Foreign-exchange_reserves

http://www.investopedia.com/articles/investing/040115/reasons-why-china-buys-us-treasury-bonds.asp



On Wed, Oct 14, 2015 at 6:53 PM, Cari Machet <carimachet at gmail.com> wrote:

>
> http://www.wsj.com/articles/once-the-biggest-buyer-china-starts-dumping-u-s-government-debt-1444196065
>
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reserve_currency
>
> On Wed, Oct 14, 2015 at 5:41 PM, Cari Machet <carimachet at gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> China is pulling away from buying the debt of the US and hence pulling
>> away from the dollar as its backed exchange rate ... meaning when a country
>> holds in its banks enough US currency so that it can exchange the currency
>> easily it is backing its money w the US dollar BECAUSE it cant then go to
>> the US and say ok give me chinese yen ... it just has to hold the dollar in
>> its system and therefor ownes the debt
>> Presently the chinese see the futility of the system and are shifting i
>> cant remember into what exactly ... will dig that up when i get a minute
>> but they dont want to be basing econ on debt papers anymore
>>
>> The ever fucker nixon ... with dick cheney in his cabinet took the dollar
>> off the gold standard and kind of fucked the world ... didnt warn anyone or
>> nothin just did it
>>
>> In india the government just ask the people to loan their banks personal
>> items of gold ... people buy it here as a personal investment like real
>> estate such a contrary notion than the US
>> On Oct 14, 2015 3:30 PM, "Georgi Guninski" <guninski at guninski.com> wrote:
>>
>>> On Sun, Oct 11, 2015 at 01:31:26PM +0200, Lodewijk andré de la porte
>>> wrote:
>>> > >
>>> http://english.pravda.ru/business/finance/08-10-2015/132278-us_treasury_swap-0/
>>> > > >
>>> > > > "There are $630 trillion in outstanding derivatives globally
>>> according
>>> > > > to the Bank of International Settlements (BIS) in Switzerland. That
>>> > > > is, about $630 trillion in bets placed on about $100 trillion in
>>> > > > stocks and bonds."
>>> > > >
>>> > >
>>> > > Interesting (but doesn't seem citable reference to me).
>>> > >
>>> > > How the financial market is still working?
>>> > >
>>> > > And how such bets survived so far?
>>> >
>>> >
>>> > Counting derivatives as debt is definitely 100% misguided. They're also
>>>
>>> Maybe "Counting derivatives as debt" is indeed not correct.
>>>
>>> But gambling with something you don't have is serious potential debt
>>> problem.
>>>
>>> Especially, as you note, if the shit is amplified (which is likely in a
>>> ponzi scheme like this).
>>>
>>> Somewhat related (I don't claim it is the same):
>>>
>>> https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Barings_Bank&oldid=684442660
>>> ---
>>> The bank collapsed in 1995 after suffering losses of £827 million ($1.3
>>> billion) resulting from poor speculative investments, primarily in
>>> futures contracts, conducted by an employee named Nick Leeson working at
>>> its office in Singapore.
>>> ---
>>>
>>>
>>>
>
>
> --
> Cari Machet
> NYC 646-436-7795
> carimachet at gmail.com
> AIM carismachet
> Syria +963-099 277 3243
> Amman +962 077 636 9407
> Berlin +49 152 11779219
> Reykjavik +354 894 8650
> Twitter: @carimachet <https://twitter.com/carimachet>
>
> 7035 690E 5E47 41D4 B0E5 B3D1 AF90 49D6 BE09 2187
>
> Ruh-roh, this is now necessary: This email is intended only for the
> addressee(s) and may contain confidential information. If you are not the
> intended recipient, you are hereby notified that any use of this
> information, dissemination, distribution, or copying of this email without
> permission is strictly prohibited.
>
>
>


-- 
Cari Machet
NYC 646-436-7795
carimachet at gmail.com
AIM carismachet
Syria +963-099 277 3243
Amman +962 077 636 9407
Berlin +49 152 11779219
Reykjavik +354 894 8650
Twitter: @carimachet <https://twitter.com/carimachet>

7035 690E 5E47 41D4 B0E5 B3D1 AF90 49D6 BE09 2187

Ruh-roh, this is now necessary: This email is intended only for the
addressee(s) and may contain confidential information. If you are not the
intended recipient, you are hereby notified that any use of this
information, dissemination, distribution, or copying of this email without
permission is strictly prohibited.
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From rysiek at hackerspace.pl  Wed Oct 14 11:07:17 2015
From: rysiek at hackerspace.pl (rysiek)
Date: Wed, 14 Oct 2015 20:07:17 +0200
Subject: Wikileaks releases TPP Intellectual Property chapter in full
In-Reply-To: <20151013221359.97930C00014@frontend1.nyi.internal>
References: <150605e5798.276e.1f05807931e4ad06fc5cede0f4d78971@warpmail.net>
 <561D7D71.70205@openmailbox.org>
 <20151013221359.97930C00014@frontend1.nyi.internal>
Message-ID: <4130914.tFvhnZc32o@lapuntu>

Dnia wtorek, 13 października 2015 15:14:15 Shelley pisze:
> On October 13, 2015 2:54:35 PM oshwm <oshwm at openmailbox.org> wrote:
> 
> [snip]
> 
> > So nginx itself is functioning well enough to return the 403s and
> > therefore my guess is that it is refusing some requests in order to
> > avoid increasing load.
> 
> Right, that's what I meant.  Server load balancing issue, etc.  I mentioned
> the mirrors for convenience sake, not because the whole site was down (it
> obviously wasn't, 403 =/= 404)

404 != "site is down" ;)

-- 
Pozdrawiam,
Michał "rysiek" Woźniak

Zmieniam klucz GPG :: http://rys.io/pl/147
GPG Key Transition :: http://rys.io/en/147
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From rysiek at hackerspace.pl  Wed Oct 14 11:08:48 2015
From: rysiek at hackerspace.pl (rysiek)
Date: Wed, 14 Oct 2015 20:08:48 +0200
Subject: Trying to invoke Godwin's law for some threads on this so called
 list
In-Reply-To: <561D7756.60700@pilobilus.net>
References: <CANFTA09JD_u-jUs2Gg+RAbR7ken+i9wusaqRR3BO7Tn1uhRusQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <20151013133541.45feea063419ab323a6f8cba@virtadpt.net>
 <561D7756.60700@pilobilus.net>
Message-ID: <4142743.YanloMcjHl@lapuntu>

Dnia wtorek, 13 października 2015 17:27:50 Steve Kinney pisze:
> My take:  Fuck a bunch of "Godwin's Law."  Call a spade a spade,
> or even a goddamned SHOVEL if that fits the situation.

Problem is: it usually doesn't.

-- 
Pozdrawiam,
Michał "rysiek" Woźniak

Zmieniam klucz GPG :: http://rys.io/pl/147
GPG Key Transition :: http://rys.io/en/147
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From shelley at misanthropia.org  Wed Oct 14 22:17:19 2015
From: shelley at misanthropia.org (Shelley)
Date: Wed, 14 Oct 2015 22:17:19 -0700
Subject: [cryptome] Cryptome for sale with access log files from 1996 for
 $50, 000, 000
In-Reply-To: <15069e75df0.276e.4d489027c0c4d0c1b1ca03a1f48f1ffb@misanthropia.org>
References: <E1ZmaCO-0006rz-Sz@elasmtp-galgo.atl.sa.earthlink.net>
Message-ID: <20151015051702.5AB986800BC@frontend2.nyi.internal>

On October 14, 2015 9:32:30 PM John Young <jya at pipeline.com> wrote:

> Cryptome for sale with access log files from 1996 for $50,000,000.
>
> Authentic Cryptome Archive for $10,000.
> <https://t.co/38zMD3KlpS>https://cryptome.org/donations.htm

1) John, if this is indeed JY, is awake long past his bedtime.

2) If Cryptome has access logs going back to 1996 then John has completely 
contradicted himself about deleting old logs with the previous provider, 
before Network Solutions.

I don't know what's been going on for the past week with JY and some of the 
cpunks list, but I'd sure like to find out.

-Shelley





From mirimir at riseup.net  Wed Oct 14 22:28:41 2015
From: mirimir at riseup.net (Mirimir)
Date: Wed, 14 Oct 2015 23:28:41 -0600
Subject: Cryptome for sale with access log files from 1996 for $50, 000,
 000
In-Reply-To: <E1ZmaCO-0006rz-Sz@elasmtp-galgo.atl.sa.earthlink.net>
References: <E1ZmaCO-0006rz-Sz@elasmtp-galgo.atl.sa.earthlink.net>
Message-ID: <561F3989.7010306@riseup.net>

On 10/14/2015 10:32 PM, John Young wrote:
> Cryptome for sale with access log files from 1996 for $50,000,000.
> 
> Authentic Cryptome Archive for $10,000.
> <https://t.co/38zMD3KlpS>https://cryptome.org/donations.htm 

Good retirement plan ;)




From jya at pipeline.com  Wed Oct 14 21:32:53 2015
From: jya at pipeline.com (John Young)
Date: Thu, 15 Oct 2015 00:32:53 -0400
Subject: Cryptome for sale with access log files from 1996 for
  $50,000,000 
Message-ID: <E1ZmaCO-0006rz-Sz@elasmtp-galgo.atl.sa.earthlink.net>

Cryptome for sale with access log files from 1996 for $50,000,000.

Authentic Cryptome Archive for $10,000. 
<https://t.co/38zMD3KlpS>https://cryptome.org/donations.htm  
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From themikebest at gmail.com  Wed Oct 14 21:56:29 2015
From: themikebest at gmail.com (Michael Best)
Date: Thu, 15 Oct 2015 00:56:29 -0400
Subject: [cryptome] Cryptome for sale with access log files from 1996 for $50,
 000, 000
Message-ID: <CANFTA09o1yFdANPFTwW82Pe9REbSpFyxmBNFfhCQFrq_bF5bxw@mail.gmail.com>

Self-deprecating humor aside, what're the new 1,100 supplemental files?

On Thu, Oct 15, 2015 at 12:32 AM, John Young <jya at pipeline.com> wrote:

> Cryptome for sale with access log files from 1996 for $50,000,000.
>
> Authentic Cryptome Archive for $10,000. https://cryptome.org/donations.htm
> <https://t.co/38zMD3KlpS>
>
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From shelley at misanthropia.org  Thu Oct 15 02:59:05 2015
From: shelley at misanthropia.org (Shelley)
Date: Thu, 15 Oct 2015 02:59:05 -0700
Subject: [cryptome] Cryptome for sale with access log files from 1996 for
 $50, 000, 000
In-Reply-To: <E1ZmaCO-0006rz-Sz@elasmtp-galgo.atl.sa.earthlink.net>
References: <E1ZmaCO-0006rz-Sz@elasmtp-galgo.atl.sa.earthlink.net>
Message-ID: <20151015095848.7F290680157@frontend2.nyi.internal>

On October 14, 2015 9:32:30 PM John Young <jya at pipeline.com> wrote:

> Cryptome for sale with access log files from 1996 for $50,000,000.
>
> Authentic Cryptome Archive for $10,000.
> <https://t.co/38zMD3KlpS>https://cryptome.org/donations.htm

More evidence that the site has probably been compromised, yet again:

Excerpt from 2003 subpoena, via http://cryptome.org/cryptome-log.htm:

 ----- BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE -----
Hash SHA1

CRYPTOME

COMMONWEALTH OF MASSACHUSETTS

AFFIDAVIT

I, John Young, administrator of Cryptome, hereby declare that logs of 
Cryptome are deleted daily, or more often during heavy traffic, to protect 
the privacy of visitors to the site. Cryptome does not own or know the 
location of the machine which hosts its virtual private server under a 
service agreement with NTT Verio. There are several international mirrors 
of the files on Cryptome, all of which, to the best of my knowledge, delete 
logs to protect privacy of visitors.

Attested and communicated to the Commonwealth of Massachusetts by this 
PGP-signed statement published on Cryptome, 6 January 2003:

http://cryptome.org/cryptome-log.htm ---

—————

Logs going back to 1996?  That'd be perjury.  I don't buy it.

Domain is not for sale at the registrar and transfer is still prohibited.  Fyi.

-Shelley





From Rayzer at riseup.net  Thu Oct 15 07:37:36 2015
From: Rayzer at riseup.net (Razer)
Date: Thu, 15 Oct 2015 07:37:36 -0700
Subject: Cryptome for sale with access log files from 1996 for $50, 000,
 000
In-Reply-To: <561F6C67.9030202@openmailbox.org>
References: <E1ZmaCO-0006rz-Sz@elasmtp-galgo.atl.sa.earthlink.net>
 <561F6920.5060707@riseup.net> <561F6C67.9030202@openmailbox.org>
Message-ID: <561FBA30.3050407@riseup.net>



On 10/15/2015 02:05 AM, oshwm wrote:
> Yeh, apparently Pierre Omidyar has offered John a position as journalist
> and so John no longer needs to run Cryptome :D

John's doing a 'BB', and he hasn't even done time... Because there's
nothing to do time over, and TRULY, nothing worthwhile to see in
Cryptome's logs. The only potential 'stink' here is if John had said he
wasn't keeping logs, and he did so HIMSELF. If Network Solutions did so
and kept the logs as required by the feds (and by the feds for
perpetuity if there's encrypted data), there's fuckingwellnothing John
could do about it, and IF he could acquire them from NetSol to sell
signed and numbered editions, it NOT on him, but on all the idiots who
visited his site 'barefoot'.


RR

>
> On 15/10/15 09:51, odinn wrote:
>> Oh.
>>
>> John Young:
>>> Cryptome for sale with access log files from 1996 for $50,000,000.
>>> Authentic Cryptome Archive for $10,000. 
>>> <https://t.co/38zMD3KlpS>https://cryptome.org/donations.htm
>>


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From Rayzer at riseup.net  Thu Oct 15 07:48:43 2015
From: Rayzer at riseup.net (Razer)
Date: Thu, 15 Oct 2015 07:48:43 -0700
Subject: USB killer v2.0
In-Reply-To: <20151015102253.GA2655@sivokote.iziade.m$>
References: <20151015102253.GA2655@sivokote.iziade.m$>
Message-ID: <561FBCCB.5080105@riseup.net>



On 10/15/2015 03:22 AM, Georgi Guninski wrote:
> http://www.theregister.co.uk/2015/10/14/sneaky_220v_usb_fries_laptops/
>
> ---
> An internet mischief maker has built a USB stick that delivers dangerous
> 220-volt shocks to PCs, destroying them in the process.
> ---

Tentatively speaking, No. I don't think so... The circuitry is designed
for 5 volts, and the capacitance available throughout the device is so
low almost no current would be available either.


>
> There is a link to russian blog from 8.oct.2015.
>
> In some thread here, jim bell wrote something like patched microwave
> oven can focus "energy" remotely.  Does this method, if applied to
> desktop/laptop damages them remotely?
>

Inverse proportion. At microwave oven frequency wavelengths
(redundancy?) the halving of power happens within inches, and inches,
and inches.

So... No.

Put your laptop in the 'wave, and set to incinerate for a few
milliseconds and it will no longer work though. Nor will the microwave oven.

RR

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From themikebest at gmail.com  Thu Oct 15 05:18:03 2015
From: themikebest at gmail.com (Michael Best)
Date: Thu, 15 Oct 2015 08:18:03 -0400
Subject: [cryptome] Re: Cryptome for sale with access log files from 1996
 for $50,000,000
In-Reply-To: <20151015095848.7F290680157@frontend2.nyi.internal>
References: <E1ZmaCO-0006rz-Sz@elasmtp-galgo.atl.sa.earthlink.net>
 <20151015095848.7F290680157@frontend2.nyi.internal>
Message-ID: <CANFTA09ifZJSV9VT10mdq2LoB4mEpf-2scosooS9WYgPCdCsTw@mail.gmail.com>

Is there anyone who can verify JYA's accounts haven't been hacked? I was
assuming this was a joke until the tweet with the picture of 1997 logs.
https://twitter.com/Cryptomeorg/status/654626113742893056

On Thu, Oct 15, 2015 at 5:59 AM, Shelley <shelley at misanthropia.org> wrote:

> On October 14, 2015 9:32:30 PM John Young <jya at pipeline.com> wrote:
>
> Cryptome for sale with access log files from 1996 for $50,000,000.
>>
>> Authentic Cryptome Archive for $10,000.
>> <https://t.co/38zMD3KlpS>https://cryptome.org/donations.htm
>>
>
> More evidence that the site has probably been compromised, yet again:
>
> Excerpt from 2003 subpoena, via http://cryptome.org/cryptome-log.htm:
>
> ----- BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE -----
> Hash SHA1
>
> CRYPTOME
>
> COMMONWEALTH OF MASSACHUSETTS
>
> AFFIDAVIT
>
> I, John Young, administrator of Cryptome, hereby declare that logs of
> Cryptome are deleted daily, or more often during heavy traffic, to protect
> the privacy of visitors to the site. Cryptome does not own or know the
> location of the machine which hosts its virtual private server under a
> service agreement with NTT Verio. There are several international mirrors
> of the files on Cryptome, all of which, to the best of my knowledge, delete
> logs to protect privacy of visitors.
>
> Attested and communicated to the Commonwealth of Massachusetts by this
> PGP-signed statement published on Cryptome, 6 January 2003:
>
> http://cryptome.org/cryptome-log.htm ---
>
> —————
>
> Logs going back to 1996?  That'd be perjury.  I don't buy it.
>
> Domain is not for sale at the registrar and transfer is still prohibited.
> Fyi.
>
> -Shelley
>
>
>
>
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From admin at pilobilus.net  Thu Oct 15 05:41:39 2015
From: admin at pilobilus.net (Steve Kinney)
Date: Thu, 15 Oct 2015 08:41:39 -0400
Subject: Cryptome for sale with access log files from 1996 for $50, 000,
 000
In-Reply-To: <E1ZmaCO-0006rz-Sz@elasmtp-galgo.atl.sa.earthlink.net>
References: <E1ZmaCO-0006rz-Sz@elasmtp-galgo.atl.sa.earthlink.net>
Message-ID: <561F9F03.4080007@pilobilus.net>

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1

"Your true diddler winds up all with a grin. But this nobody sees
but himself. He grins when his daily work is done—when his
allotted labors are accomplished—at night in his own closet, and
altogether for his own private entertainment. He goes home. He
locks his door. He divests himself of his clothes. He puts out his
candle. He gets into bed. He places his head upon the pillow. All
this done, and your diddler grins. This is no hypothesis. It is a
matter of course. I reason a priori, and a diddle would be no
diddle without a grin."

- - Edgar Allan Poe, Diddling Considered as One Of The Exact Sciences

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From odinn.cyberguerrilla at riseup.net  Thu Oct 15 01:51:44 2015
From: odinn.cyberguerrilla at riseup.net (odinn)
Date: Thu, 15 Oct 2015 08:51:44 +0000
Subject: Cryptome for sale with access log files from 1996 for $50, 000,
 000
In-Reply-To: <E1ZmaCO-0006rz-Sz@elasmtp-galgo.atl.sa.earthlink.net>
References: <E1ZmaCO-0006rz-Sz@elasmtp-galgo.atl.sa.earthlink.net>
Message-ID: <561F6920.5060707@riseup.net>

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA512

Oh.

John Young:
> Cryptome for sale with access log files from 1996 for $50,000,000.
> 
> Authentic Cryptome Archive for $10,000. 
> <https://t.co/38zMD3KlpS>https://cryptome.org/donations.htm

- -- 
http://abis.io ~
"a protocol concept to enable decentralization
and expansion of a giving economy, and a new social good"
https://keybase.io/odinn
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=Tuek
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----




From themikebest at gmail.com  Thu Oct 15 06:08:09 2015
From: themikebest at gmail.com (Michael Best)
Date: Thu, 15 Oct 2015 09:08:09 -0400
Subject: [cryptome] Re: Cryptome for sale with access log files from 1996
 for $50,000,000
In-Reply-To: <CAJ88D5=e58u0-WtKYnRgt1oLZ67vUJa7KCBpm5EMuSo-LMATYA@mail.gmail.com>
References: <E1ZmaCO-0006rz-Sz@elasmtp-galgo.atl.sa.earthlink.net>
 <20151015095848.7F290680157@frontend2.nyi.internal>
 <CANFTA09ifZJSV9VT10mdq2LoB4mEpf-2scosooS9WYgPCdCsTw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAJ88D5=e58u0-WtKYnRgt1oLZ67vUJa7KCBpm5EMuSo-LMATYA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CANFTA08i+pVDnEXqT2HzP5gwYXQwpyfPuDuWsYV_zZ_xza1G=w@mail.gmail.com>

I just assumed someone on one of the lists would have been in phone contact
with JYA at some point or would have enough shared experience with him that
they could recognize him/the way he writes in an email.

On Thu, Oct 15, 2015 at 8:56 AM, Andrew Hornback <achornback at gmail.com>
wrote:

> Okay, I'll take the troll bait here...
>
> How would you go about verifying that his account has NOT been hacked?
>
> --- A
> On Oct 15, 2015 8:18 AM, "Michael Best" <themikebest at gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> Is there anyone who can verify JYA's accounts haven't been hacked? I was
>> assuming this was a joke until the tweet with the picture of 1997 logs.
>> https://twitter.com/Cryptomeorg/status/654626113742893056
>>
>> On Thu, Oct 15, 2015 at 5:59 AM, Shelley <shelley at misanthropia.org>
>> wrote:
>>
>>> On October 14, 2015 9:32:30 PM John Young <jya at pipeline.com> wrote:
>>>
>>> Cryptome for sale with access log files from 1996 for $50,000,000.
>>>>
>>>> Authentic Cryptome Archive for $10,000.
>>>> <https://t.co/38zMD3KlpS>https://cryptome.org/donations.htm
>>>>
>>>
>>> More evidence that the site has probably been compromised, yet again:
>>>
>>> Excerpt from 2003 subpoena, via http://cryptome.org/cryptome-log.htm:
>>>
>>> ----- BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE -----
>>> Hash SHA1
>>>
>>> CRYPTOME
>>>
>>> COMMONWEALTH OF MASSACHUSETTS
>>>
>>> AFFIDAVIT
>>>
>>> I, John Young, administrator of Cryptome, hereby declare that logs of
>>> Cryptome are deleted daily, or more often during heavy traffic, to protect
>>> the privacy of visitors to the site. Cryptome does not own or know the
>>> location of the machine which hosts its virtual private server under a
>>> service agreement with NTT Verio. There are several international mirrors
>>> of the files on Cryptome, all of which, to the best of my knowledge, delete
>>> logs to protect privacy of visitors.
>>>
>>> Attested and communicated to the Commonwealth of Massachusetts by this
>>> PGP-signed statement published on Cryptome, 6 January 2003:
>>>
>>> http://cryptome.org/cryptome-log.htm ---
>>>
>>> —————
>>>
>>> Logs going back to 1996?  That'd be perjury.  I don't buy it.
>>>
>>> Domain is not for sale at the registrar and transfer is still
>>> prohibited.  Fyi.
>>>
>>> -Shelley
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>
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From oshwm at openmailbox.org  Thu Oct 15 02:05:43 2015
From: oshwm at openmailbox.org (oshwm)
Date: Thu, 15 Oct 2015 10:05:43 +0100
Subject: Cryptome for sale with access log files from 1996 for $50, 000,
 000
In-Reply-To: <561F6920.5060707@riseup.net>
References: <E1ZmaCO-0006rz-Sz@elasmtp-galgo.atl.sa.earthlink.net>
 <561F6920.5060707@riseup.net>
Message-ID: <561F6C67.9030202@openmailbox.org>

Yeh, apparently Pierre Omidyar has offered John a position as journalist
and so John no longer needs to run Cryptome :D

On 15/10/15 09:51, odinn wrote:
> Oh.
> 
> John Young:
>> Cryptome for sale with access log files from 1996 for $50,000,000.
> 
>> Authentic Cryptome Archive for $10,000. 
>> <https://t.co/38zMD3KlpS>https://cryptome.org/donations.htm
> 
> 

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From shelley at misanthropia.org  Thu Oct 15 11:27:18 2015
From: shelley at misanthropia.org (Shelley)
Date: Thu, 15 Oct 2015 11:27:18 -0700
Subject: [cryptome] Re: Cryptome for sale with access log files from 1996
 for $50, 000, 000
In-Reply-To: <CANFTA08cTfpgtZ3eCgL6g8p5RrvnTxQGMEcHTmVEk6+eYLCH4w@mail.gmail.com>
References: <E1ZmaCO-0006rz-Sz@elasmtp-galgo.atl.sa.earthlink.net>
 <20151015095848.7F290680157@frontend2.nyi.internal>
 <CANFTA09ifZJSV9VT10mdq2LoB4mEpf-2scosooS9WYgPCdCsTw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAJ88D5=e58u0-WtKYnRgt1oLZ67vUJa7KCBpm5EMuSo-LMATYA@mail.gmail.com>
 <20151015134147.C8E8B6801EC@frontend2.nyi.internal>
 <CANFTA08cTfpgtZ3eCgL6g8p5RrvnTxQGMEcHTmVEk6+eYLCH4w@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <20151015182702.8ADE46800F7@frontend2.nyi.internal>

On October 15, 2015 11:23:21 AM Michael Best <themikebest at gmail.com> wrote:

> https://twitter.com/Cryptomeorg/status/654722680856293377
>
> > wikileaks is a $5B-50B entity not for free lurid content but for its user
> > data and metadata. Assange's brilliant wikiplan. Ed and Glenn's?
>
>
> Now *that* sounds like John! =)
>

It does!  Does that make it better or worse, though?  (I don't know the 
answer...)


> On Thu, Oct 15, 2015 at 9:42 AM, Shelley <shelley at misanthropia.org> wrote:
>
> > On October 15, 2015 5:57:09 AM Andrew Hornback <achornback at gmail.com>
> > wrote:
> >
> > Okay, I'll take the troll bait here...
> >>
> >> How would you go about verifying that his account has NOT been hacked?
> >>
> >> --- A
> >>
> >
> > How is it troll bait to ask that question, Andrew?
> >
> > You think this is normal behavior for JY?  It used to be posted right on
> > Cryptome that access logs were deleted daily or better, and it appears that
> > he may have lied to a grand jury about not having them.
> >
> > This isn't funny.  At all.
> >
> > -S
> >
> >
> >
> > On Oct 15, 2015 8:18 AM, "Michael Best" <themikebest at gmail.com> wrote:
> >>
> >> > Is there anyone who can verify JYA's accounts haven't been hacked? I was
> >> > assuming this was a joke until the tweet with the picture of 1997 logs.
> >> > https://twitter.com/Cryptomeorg/status/654626113742893056
> >> >
> >> > On Thu, Oct 15, 2015 at 5:59 AM, Shelley <shelley at misanthropia.org>
> >> wrote:
> >> >
> >> >> On October 14, 2015 9:32:30 PM John Young <jya at pipeline.com> wrote:
> >> >>
> >> >> Cryptome for sale with access log files from 1996 for $50,000,000.
> >> >>>
> >> >>> Authentic Cryptome Archive for $10,000.
> >> >>> <https://t.co/38zMD3KlpS>https://cryptome.org/donations.htm
> >> >>>
> >> >>
> >> >> More evidence that the site has probably been compromised, yet again:
> >> >>
> >> >> Excerpt from 2003 subpoena, via http://cryptome.org/cryptome-log.htm:
> >> >>
> >> >> ----- BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE -----
> >> >> Hash SHA1
> >> >>
> >> >> CRYPTOME
> >> >>
> >> >> COMMONWEALTH OF MASSACHUSETTS
> >> >>
> >> >> AFFIDAVIT
> >> >>
> >> >> I, John Young, administrator of Cryptome, hereby declare that logs of
> >> >> Cryptome are deleted daily, or more often during heavy traffic, to
> >> protect
> >> >> the privacy of visitors to the site. Cryptome does not own or know the
> >> >> location of the machine which hosts its virtual private server under a
> >> >> service agreement with NTT Verio. There are several international
> >> mirrors
> >> >> of the files on Cryptome, all of which, to the best of my knowledge,
> >> delete
> >> >> logs to protect privacy of visitors.
> >> >>
> >> >> Attested and communicated to the Commonwealth of Massachusetts by this
> >> >> PGP-signed statement published on Cryptome, 6 January 2003:
> >> >>
> >> >> http://cryptome.org/cryptome-log.htm ---
> >> >>
> >> >> —————
> >> >>
> >> >> Logs going back to 1996?  That'd be perjury.  I don't buy it.
> >> >>
> >> >> Domain is not for sale at the registrar and transfer is still
> >> >> prohibited.  Fyi.
> >> >>
> >> >> -Shelley
> >> >>
> >> >>
> >> >>
> >> >>
> >> >
> >>
> >
> >
> >
> >





From carimachet at gmail.com  Thu Oct 15 02:55:56 2015
From: carimachet at gmail.com (Cari Machet)
Date: Thu, 15 Oct 2015 12:55:56 +0300
Subject: USA government debt ceiling
In-Reply-To: <561ea237.08618c0a.a98b3.3123@mx.google.com>
References: <CAOsGNSSpW6H5POz=xF5NpNc6Xvie_XoTStKtgDnThrE5Ys9Uqw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAOsGNSR9tXKM9+nPvJgT_7qESJPSJ9JuXWyeNFqBoPUCFEY3Bg@mail.gmail.com>
 <20151005124251.GC2489@sivokote.iziade.m$>
 <CAOsGNSSvyQc8LGkoYMVWpqXB0QCj=gOeoXrPXL7Max=Wtu5NaQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <20151011070745.GA2610@sivokote.iziade.m$>
 <CAHWD2rKMAE7tH+t4B-P9XEPmTSRsuqEmQ8NVQKOFi2ww3uh_CQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <20151014122254.GC2599@sivokote.iziade.m$>
 <CAGRDzQUBoV9qMUf845rHztVhavo9FWkPP=qpY4T_C-P9RX=T8A@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAGRDzQVGsk3fHSW147QO0QcWadVzfqHd6rF4qby7eYj5+c-wxw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAGRDzQUrhpPL2WJDc1e=xs91GiMM0y4p3UPuhMr3FXLzsGsivA@mail.gmail.com>
 <561ea237.08618c0a.a98b3.3123@mx.google.com>
Message-ID: <CAGRDzQVrsgOrBjeY03cpPWPj=WXjR1=-e1bhBdCaOsnsiL9SaQ@mail.gmail.com>

Yes reading econ is a super horror ... i have to go back and read naomi
klein to get equalibrium ... and think about shit that is happening on the
ground despite the parasitic cannibal mafia that pretends to be government

Towns even have their own currencies so it could be even more facsistic
than it is currently

The US has been buidling the present global econ structure for a long long
time and unfortunately when i have tried to talk people out of the system
... like in the middle east ... out of trying to assymilate to the current
rating system etc they just are baffled i ask them to make their own system
... they dont think on these terms because the US has indocrinated everyone
with hegemony for their own benefit its a horror and sick people could have
many more criteria for rating etc change the system... especially the
rating system it is complete mafia
On Oct 14, 2015 9:48 PM, "Juan" <juan.g71 at gmail.com> wrote:

> On Wed, 14 Oct 2015 19:28:48 +0300
> Cari Machet <carimachet at gmail.com> wrote:
>
> >
> http://www.investopedia.com/articles/investing/040115/reasons-why-china-buys-us-treasury-bonds.asp
>
>         that article is 100% americunt fascist bullshit.
>
>         "The Bottom Line : this type of economic arrangement is actually
>         a win-win for both nations. "
>
>         translation : the arrangement benefits both GOVERNMENTS and
>         screws the serfs.
>
>
>
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From blibbet at gmail.com  Thu Oct 15 13:03:08 2015
From: blibbet at gmail.com (Blibbet)
Date: Thu, 15 Oct 2015 13:03:08 -0700
Subject: USB killer v2.0
In-Reply-To: <302937757.1063300.1444937691123.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com>
References: <561FBCCB.5080105@riseup.net>
 <302937757.1063300.1444937691123.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <5620067C.60002@gmail.com>

Joe Fitzpatrick of SecuringHardware.com made a USB Sanitizer:
https://github.com/securelyfitz/USBSanitizer/
https://twitter.com/securelyfitz/status/583858610683441152
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V60TksZd7uk

Xipiter also sells the USB Condom.
https://www.crowdsupply.com/xipiter/usbcondom

I wonder if either would stop USB Killer 2.0?





From guninski at guninski.com  Thu Oct 15 03:22:54 2015
From: guninski at guninski.com (Georgi Guninski)
Date: Thu, 15 Oct 2015 13:22:54 +0300
Subject: USB killer v2.0
Message-ID: <20151015102253.GA2655@sivokote.iziade.m$>

http://www.theregister.co.uk/2015/10/14/sneaky_220v_usb_fries_laptops/

---
An internet mischief maker has built a USB stick that delivers dangerous
220-volt shocks to PCs, destroying them in the process.
---

There is a link to russian blog from 8.oct.2015.

In some thread here, jim bell wrote something like patched microwave
oven can focus "energy" remotely.  Does this method, if applied to
desktop/laptop damages them remotely?




From Rayzer at riseup.net  Thu Oct 15 13:41:46 2015
From: Rayzer at riseup.net (Razer)
Date: Thu, 15 Oct 2015 13:41:46 -0700
Subject: USB killer v2.0
In-Reply-To: <302937757.1063300.1444937691123.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com>
References: <561FBCCB.5080105@riseup.net>
 <302937757.1063300.1444937691123.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <56200F8A.2080507@riseup.net>

Are you really? Sigh... Shoulda never let my callsign lapse in the early
2000s, I'd be an advanced by now, and we'd be vying for who dropped dead
first.

RR, KC6NFR-expired

On 10/15/2015 12:34 PM, jim bell wrote:
> Jim Bell, N7IJS.   The World's Last Tech-Plus Ham


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From themikebest at gmail.com  Thu Oct 15 11:22:57 2015
From: themikebest at gmail.com (Michael Best)
Date: Thu, 15 Oct 2015 14:22:57 -0400
Subject: [cryptome] Re: Cryptome for sale with access log files from 1996
 for $50,000,000
In-Reply-To: <20151015134147.C8E8B6801EC@frontend2.nyi.internal>
References: <E1ZmaCO-0006rz-Sz@elasmtp-galgo.atl.sa.earthlink.net>
 <20151015095848.7F290680157@frontend2.nyi.internal>
 <CANFTA09ifZJSV9VT10mdq2LoB4mEpf-2scosooS9WYgPCdCsTw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAJ88D5=e58u0-WtKYnRgt1oLZ67vUJa7KCBpm5EMuSo-LMATYA@mail.gmail.com>
 <20151015134147.C8E8B6801EC@frontend2.nyi.internal>
Message-ID: <CANFTA08cTfpgtZ3eCgL6g8p5RrvnTxQGMEcHTmVEk6+eYLCH4w@mail.gmail.com>

https://twitter.com/Cryptomeorg/status/654722680856293377

> wikileaks is a $5B-50B entity not for free lurid content but for its user
> data and metadata. Assange's brilliant wikiplan. Ed and Glenn's?


Now *that* sounds like John! =)

On Thu, Oct 15, 2015 at 9:42 AM, Shelley <shelley at misanthropia.org> wrote:

> On October 15, 2015 5:57:09 AM Andrew Hornback <achornback at gmail.com>
> wrote:
>
> Okay, I'll take the troll bait here...
>>
>> How would you go about verifying that his account has NOT been hacked?
>>
>> --- A
>>
>
> How is it troll bait to ask that question, Andrew?
>
> You think this is normal behavior for JY?  It used to be posted right on
> Cryptome that access logs were deleted daily or better, and it appears that
> he may have lied to a grand jury about not having them.
>
> This isn't funny.  At all.
>
> -S
>
>
>
> On Oct 15, 2015 8:18 AM, "Michael Best" <themikebest at gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>> > Is there anyone who can verify JYA's accounts haven't been hacked? I was
>> > assuming this was a joke until the tweet with the picture of 1997 logs.
>> > https://twitter.com/Cryptomeorg/status/654626113742893056
>> >
>> > On Thu, Oct 15, 2015 at 5:59 AM, Shelley <shelley at misanthropia.org>
>> wrote:
>> >
>> >> On October 14, 2015 9:32:30 PM John Young <jya at pipeline.com> wrote:
>> >>
>> >> Cryptome for sale with access log files from 1996 for $50,000,000.
>> >>>
>> >>> Authentic Cryptome Archive for $10,000.
>> >>> <https://t.co/38zMD3KlpS>https://cryptome.org/donations.htm
>> >>>
>> >>
>> >> More evidence that the site has probably been compromised, yet again:
>> >>
>> >> Excerpt from 2003 subpoena, via http://cryptome.org/cryptome-log.htm:
>> >>
>> >> ----- BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE -----
>> >> Hash SHA1
>> >>
>> >> CRYPTOME
>> >>
>> >> COMMONWEALTH OF MASSACHUSETTS
>> >>
>> >> AFFIDAVIT
>> >>
>> >> I, John Young, administrator of Cryptome, hereby declare that logs of
>> >> Cryptome are deleted daily, or more often during heavy traffic, to
>> protect
>> >> the privacy of visitors to the site. Cryptome does not own or know the
>> >> location of the machine which hosts its virtual private server under a
>> >> service agreement with NTT Verio. There are several international
>> mirrors
>> >> of the files on Cryptome, all of which, to the best of my knowledge,
>> delete
>> >> logs to protect privacy of visitors.
>> >>
>> >> Attested and communicated to the Commonwealth of Massachusetts by this
>> >> PGP-signed statement published on Cryptome, 6 January 2003:
>> >>
>> >> http://cryptome.org/cryptome-log.htm ---
>> >>
>> >> —————
>> >>
>> >> Logs going back to 1996?  That'd be perjury.  I don't buy it.
>> >>
>> >> Domain is not for sale at the registrar and transfer is still
>> >> prohibited.  Fyi.
>> >>
>> >> -Shelley
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>
>> >
>>
>
>
>
>
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From juan.g71 at gmail.com  Thu Oct 15 12:31:05 2015
From: juan.g71 at gmail.com (Juan)
Date: Thu, 15 Oct 2015 16:31:05 -0300
Subject: USA government debt ceiling
In-Reply-To: <CAGRDzQVrsgOrBjeY03cpPWPj=WXjR1=-e1bhBdCaOsnsiL9SaQ@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAOsGNSSpW6H5POz=xF5NpNc6Xvie_XoTStKtgDnThrE5Ys9Uqw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAOsGNSR9tXKM9+nPvJgT_7qESJPSJ9JuXWyeNFqBoPUCFEY3Bg@mail.gmail.com>
 <20151005124251.GC2489@sivokote.iziade.m$>
 <CAOsGNSSvyQc8LGkoYMVWpqXB0QCj=gOeoXrPXL7Max=Wtu5NaQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <20151011070745.GA2610@sivokote.iziade.m$>
 <CAHWD2rKMAE7tH+t4B-P9XEPmTSRsuqEmQ8NVQKOFi2ww3uh_CQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <20151014122254.GC2599@sivokote.iziade.m$>
 <CAGRDzQUBoV9qMUf845rHztVhavo9FWkPP=qpY4T_C-P9RX=T8A@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAGRDzQVGsk3fHSW147QO0QcWadVzfqHd6rF4qby7eYj5+c-wxw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAGRDzQUrhpPL2WJDc1e=xs91GiMM0y4p3UPuhMr3FXLzsGsivA@mail.gmail.com>
 <561ea237.08618c0a.a98b3.3123@mx.google.com>
 <CAGRDzQVrsgOrBjeY03cpPWPj=WXjR1=-e1bhBdCaOsnsiL9SaQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <561ffd95.cdc8370a.16645.ffffe25a@mx.google.com>

On Thu, 15 Oct 2015 12:55:56 +0300
Cari Machet <carimachet at gmail.com> wrote:

> Yes reading econ is a super horror ... i have to go back and read
> naomi klein to get equalibrium ... 


	For completness sake, I should add that the concept of 'balance
	of trade' is mercantilistic/corporatist propaganda. It only
	makes sense from the point of view of governments and companies
	that interfere with trade and currency markets.

	In a real free market individuals would trade in a 'peer to
	peer' fashion and their 'nationality' would be irrelevant. 

	
	The reasons why the chinese government plays along with the US
	government are basically two : 1) self-interest 2) nukes
	pointed at them.


> and think about shit that is
> happening on the ground despite the parasitic cannibal mafia that
> pretends to be government
> 
> Towns even have their own currencies so it could be even more
> facsistic than it is currently
> 
> The US has been buidling the present global econ structure for a long
> long time 


	Yes. And western colonialism is even older. Dutch. French.
	English, Spanish, Portuguese, etc.



and unfortunately when i have tried to talk people out of
> the system ... like in the middle east ... out of trying to
> assymilate to the current rating system etc they just are baffled i
> ask them to make their own system ... they dont think on these terms
> because the US has indocrinated everyone with hegemony for their own
> benefit its a horror and sick people could have many more criteria
> for rating etc change the system... especially the rating system it
> is complete mafia






From alexander.huemer at xx.vu  Thu Oct 15 08:12:04 2015
From: alexander.huemer at xx.vu (Alexander Huemer)
Date: Thu, 15 Oct 2015 17:12:04 +0200
Subject: USB killer v2.0
In-Reply-To: <561FBCCB.5080105@riseup.net>
References: <20151015102253.GA2655@sivokote.iziade.m$>
 <561FBCCB.5080105@riseup.net>
Message-ID: <20151015151204.GD28864@yade.xx.vu>

On Thu, Oct 15, 2015 at 07:48:43AM -0700, Razer wrote:
> On 10/15/2015 03:22 AM, Georgi Guninski wrote:
> > There is a link to russian blog from 8.oct.2015.
> >
> > In some thread here, jim bell wrote something like patched microwave
> > oven can focus "energy" remotely.  Does this method, if applied to
> > desktop/laptop damages them remotely?
> 
> Inverse proportion. At microwave oven frequency wavelengths
> (redundancy?) the halving of power happens within inches, and inches,
> and inches.

People have mounted the magnetron of a microwave oven on a satellite 
dish in order to achieve something like this. Maybe that's what is 
referenced here.

Kind regards,
-Alex
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From jdb10987 at yahoo.com  Thu Oct 15 10:50:07 2015
From: jdb10987 at yahoo.com (jim bell)
Date: Thu, 15 Oct 2015 17:50:07 +0000 (UTC)
Subject: USB killer v2.0
In-Reply-To: <20151015102253.GA2655@sivokote.iziade.m$>
References: <20151015102253.GA2655@sivokote.iziade.m$>
Message-ID: <1747118537.926949.1444931407781.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com>

  From: Georgi Guninski <guninski at guninski.com>
http://www.theregister.co.uk/2015/10/14/sneaky_220v_usb_fries_laptops/
>---
>An internet mischief maker has built a USB stick that delivers dangerous
>220-volt shocks to PCs, destroying them in the process.
>---
>There is a link to russian blog from 8.oct.2015.
>In some thread here, jim bell wrote something like patched microwave
>oven can focus "energy" remotely.  Does this method, if applied to
>desktop/laptop damages them remotely?
A typical microwave oven is a 1-kilowatt source of 2.45 GHz radio signals, generated by a device called a "magnetron tube", which is itself fed from a source of about 4000 volts and 0.3 amps, stepped up by a transformer from the AC supply.  Usually, the  power is fed into a box with metal walls, which is easy, but has a front door which is easily closeable yet has excellent shielding ability when closed.  Such microwave ovens are carefully designed so that they will not generate microwaves when the door is open:  To do so would expose the user to microwaves far above the safe level.  Now, if your intent is to do damage, you could bypass the safety features of the door, and partly disassemble the oven so as to feed the as-generated microwaves into a waveguide (sometimes it's a hollow rectangular tube) which proceeds to the antenna, which is often at the focus of a parabolic dish.  Generally, the rule is the larger the dish, the more focussed the microwaves will be.  An 8-foot diameter dish would be excellent, perhaps giving 30 db of gain over an isotropic.  There are formulae for calculating gain vs. dish size vs. wavelength easily found on the web.  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Parabolic_antenna   or the Radio Amateur's Handbook.
However, for REAL damage, it would be useful to pulse the kilovolts into the magnetron:  Generally if you increase the voltage by 10, the power increases by 100.  Feed that microwave magnetron with brief (microseconds) pulses of 40,000 volts, rather than 4000, and it will probably generate close to 100 kilowatts.  It would be necessary to establish that such a system will not arc with over-voltage, either within the waveguide or the associated high-voltage wiring.  Much of the electronics within a building would be fried if such a beam is pointed at it.




  
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From grarpamp at gmail.com  Thu Oct 15 15:12:41 2015
From: grarpamp at gmail.com (grarpamp)
Date: Thu, 15 Oct 2015 18:12:41 -0400
Subject: FOIPA adventures
In-Reply-To: <CAJVRA1S45TEydVoKDxW9SfC0DKcSdxB_HfjrvcZQjU5uymfFOQ@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAJVRA1SaJpNaPQx=s_7VVM==ony2sH0aUG3w11cjNX6escSm8w@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAJVRA1TUfu40206TOzK2kBsgCvbgBYYXmyKZ3E5n4KQuoEtZyg@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAJVRA1QtgMky_hsDLsmFwiXcxE528bZaDOQsjTqqj4tR-dbGBQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAJVRA1RwoyoRs-REWnhGd8cHZM6EJvcziTUDXbU5A6TMigOT6A@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAJVRA1Rwaq1fvE8p-s1JwOANvMc7X2E75bx5eNd4KGJapt6Nuw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAJVRA1TU5Frg3WOJk+3ZFEH0QAFya5xZnwzCfCUE+hL1NhKUFg@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAJVRA1Q0SDo9Fj3KAU9vA3cxR2=7pwcdpO3Ex=yi6g2WtRAg6A@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAJVRA1Srrb08Z9XvG+rYq30p2E_MnhJA6ynOLpdT--6gCvwiyQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAJVRA1RXD2dr16TJZK-MPcJm7nR0Ov=Dp9i5Anf5hKNFs2hq7w@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAJVRA1S97DSPk0NBjgon1LS4HHuGtq_03dqFppUnWq+t61a41A@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAJVRA1SyW_wOUcFUo6STbiePO8HmLV9LgF-PCgugvuPRD_tKWA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAJVRA1QaYYF=hoSQiSd4SHNUj-W6hjEJDhy1KxR9CfFKDgNkew@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAJVRA1TvZxj_qz6_xK8h13LOD-5mE6iNvT9dnThf4ue0_=kY3Q@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAJVRA1RbeuzfiVAOqaZ15p8kr67jxcBoNMOrJkt3K86_=FuVXw@mail.gmail.com>
 <000701d0bcb7$94118e80$bc34ab80$@co.uk>
 <CAJVRA1SE1O-PqmkV8vX=q5j_xs-YFOpH=OLxSvwaT8BBvadQmA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAJVRA1TwM3Re8Tz6NPxp_CeY5C4K3QN+Ceo5VbW3JKMbBABv9g@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAJVRA1SbqTrEbUJ84rLFWdu6+psY5uUzu-ZsVfyUwoSaMRcGdQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAJVRA1RDN6HsLCbF_wsK+zARO9PaEn80R9FSGnWgGVF4XkbbpQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAJVRA1Rt2gKvgnM0MCiqf2Q4vJ8wWxm=KabcQXeBYSqn4zRvKg@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAJVRA1Q95CKTVahkfQeH_pwaGDcgJ-4OL2=9o5ckQrZLG8HeUA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAJVRA1SyX65OE9-7DQ1hP1fGWHxY8rvCqFXhKPu4Oy4o6wt0gg@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAJVRA1SgoLtLFS9AFf_d043AGDVbKp4djDtijDR+zfCRJ8twTA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAJVRA1SvN5ML7TQnOUqz78PhYv8aefz=k8-4fPOwv2uHUVF3_w@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAJVRA1Ry2EV7qaFHmZJ9cjm8-waCNBCzenO9BpqW+YKChEHX7w@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAJVRA1S5juVmB6Ouy0JWbdeJdj9yz0W6tKQDY2q_zi+AC461EA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAJVRA1SYO0ia4VGLwFwZFowkD75YR61MC1TNc1wzHbZtmhy1_w@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAJVRA1SqWMVy6m6KuiJWQQG_6XPWoB+86-p45PWKvfn8wg_jeA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAJVRA1RWaiCZtig6+Seyk-UN9M3h9+2iZ0Otnqb6n=AFcRAeRw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAJVRA1QzHeh=rs0hRf0sugLZdbXvAhK+2Yte5Tbt_Tnv5Tf8mg@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAJVRA1SdAW+36Z8yYTdSFTtz8S8U5aiELv5NiuXg5Rg-vaFYew@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAJVRA1Svk488ax6sd4oy52rfM_u_E1EuzhUAQt6cQ2Jy5yRx5g@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAJVRA1S4=X5P6hKnZu224GjseL5ws1vRm6Gk4gJ+DG06oLjaDA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAJVRA1RsgoKvADCcRz76vj1xjT+EQDB96tw7-sgg_pf+BGzA=A@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAJVRA1TOMYnBh0-B=uh6n2HsOsFdY+SKVG-=XqKi6WPNro++PA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAJVRA1Qao1qE2kBSbb_V5NPQ7PF--VFnYQpc=08wY2_ZURz4hg@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAJVRA1S45TEydVoKDxW9SfC0DKcSdxB_HfjrvcZQjU5uymfFOQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAD2Ti29j9qCnTCBEpaTj9B2NdWpLQoAiT02QzbitiART9tFg6A@mail.gmail.com>

On Mon, Oct 12, 2015 at 11:38 PM, coderman <coderman at gmail.com> wrote:
> Passive Optical Network (PON) technical surveillance, including Fiber

PON's are like DOCSIS systems... if the last mile is encrypted, a simple
letter to the patriots at the headend gets you what you want. If not,
a simple tap in the field will do... for which there's no reason for that
laborious expense, see letter above.

> well as "Metro Ethernet" over Optical Fibre.

Similarly open and insecure.




From grarpamp at gmail.com  Thu Oct 15 15:20:18 2015
From: grarpamp at gmail.com (grarpamp)
Date: Thu, 15 Oct 2015 18:20:18 -0400
Subject: Nominee officers and directors (was: Why cryptome sold web
 logs...)
In-Reply-To: <E1ZlQcM-0000v7-5c@elasmtp-kukur.atl.sa.earthlink.net>
References: <N1B-gdbhE0RlY3@Safe-mail.net>
 <E1ZlQcM-0000v7-5c@elasmtp-kukur.atl.sa.earthlink.net>
Message-ID: <CAD2Ti29_RM4UNT+3RNwNurArbWAfD0iiAs4ooSsXADc6bVvjVQ@mail.gmail.com>

On Sun, Oct 11, 2015 at 8:06 PM, John Young <jya at pipeline.com> wrote:
> Documents are removed from this site only by order
> served directly by a US court having jurisdiction.

Belief is that some docs (particularly those in the junk / history category)
have been removed without such order, instead of left for audience review.
References elude, diff the great archives to find.




From grarpamp at gmail.com  Thu Oct 15 15:27:50 2015
From: grarpamp at gmail.com (grarpamp)
Date: Thu, 15 Oct 2015 18:27:50 -0400
Subject: Nominee officers and directors (was: Why cryptome sold web
 logs...)
In-Reply-To: <CAJVRA1S2NphRg+sJRHCdyCmVEvEMR=9D59JFA9H+pRW3py3bLg@mail.gmail.com>
References: <N1B-gdbhE0RlY3@Safe-mail.net>
 <CAJVRA1S2NphRg+sJRHCdyCmVEvEMR=9D59JFA9H+pRW3py3bLg@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAD2Ti29b7yfYC6Vgz6Fw-=ORPosJP5MKPLNaP-T-ZxB_KnLCvg@mail.gmail.com>

On Sun, Oct 11, 2015 at 7:18 PM, coderman <coderman at gmail.com> wrote:
> there is a specific gambit or protection as US citizen operating a
> personal service with personal resources and not in any formal or
> for-profit manner.

The US does offer some things comparatively strong vs other States.
Yet in this game... strength in effect, not words on paper, is the bar
one should measure against.




From grarpamp at gmail.com  Thu Oct 15 15:39:05 2015
From: grarpamp at gmail.com (grarpamp)
Date: Thu, 15 Oct 2015 18:39:05 -0400
Subject: [tor-talk] Iovation insinuates Tor Users are bad
In-Reply-To: <1444947436.2567759.411515913.5D7BB8F2@webmail.messagingengine.com>
References: <CAD2Ti2_qiqecb1=8n7w1SE8BFVt-qpJmfxt_Lk_vBA4bUonMaA@mail.gmail.com>
 <1444947436.2567759.411515913.5D7BB8F2@webmail.messagingengine.com>
Message-ID: <CAD2Ti2-m37wzxgZzpNLcoMnBtFd7Wz=O9w3chkDVLtC0ZdW3_Q@mail.gmail.com>

On Thu, Oct 15, 2015 at 6:17 PM, Geoff Down <geoffdown at fastmail.net> wrote:
> What Iovation actually *says* is that fraudsters like to conceal their
> whereabouts with a variety of technologies. Nothing controversial there.

But a wager they aren't also saying to their customers
s/fraudsters/perfectly legit everyday privacy minded Tor users among
the general public/
therefore they're insinuating Tor bad, they're biased, and they can
just piss off.

Further proof that companies like these could really give a shit about
legit Tor using end users...every single one of them a profiteering data
miner... against you and your privacy, and for them.

https://www.iovation.com/about/partners




From grarpamp at gmail.com  Thu Oct 15 16:12:54 2015
From: grarpamp at gmail.com (grarpamp)
Date: Thu, 15 Oct 2015 19:12:54 -0400
Subject: Why Mirimir outlived the canaries in the coal mine
In-Reply-To: <561B2FBA.5070405@riseup.net>
References: <CAJVRA1SHFyNpN-x2xwr64eqK2aCNtBfqyxq9a0CMAbAKE2-5jA@mail.gmail.com>
 <561B2FBA.5070405@riseup.net>
Message-ID: <CAD2Ti28W1bKv35GTrQCubtwLZRmWgjAk1P9GoEqWXFVaFZ74jw@mail.gmail.com>

On Sun, Oct 11, 2015 at 11:57 PM, Mirimir <mirimir at riseup.net> wrote:
>>  lest the measure of appropriate protection remain an abstract unknown.
> I've never been good with bounds ;)
> The situation is indeed pathetic. But hey, you do what you can.
>> it's hard to tell afore how dice come down,

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dQEIYjS1ePY




From jdb10987 at yahoo.com  Thu Oct 15 12:34:51 2015
From: jdb10987 at yahoo.com (jim bell)
Date: Thu, 15 Oct 2015 19:34:51 +0000 (UTC)
Subject: USB killer v2.0
In-Reply-To: <561FBCCB.5080105@riseup.net>
References: <561FBCCB.5080105@riseup.net>
Message-ID: <302937757.1063300.1444937691123.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com>

From: Razer <Rayzer at riseup.net>

On 10/15/2015 03:22 AM, Georgi Guninski wrote:
>> http://www.theregister.co.uk/2015/10/14/sneaky_220v_usb_fries_laptops/
>> An internet mischief maker has built a USB stick that delivers dangerous
>> 220-volt shocks to PCs, destroying them in the process.
>Tentatively speaking, No. I don't think so... The circuitry is designed
>for 5 volts, and the capacitance available throughout the device is so
>low almost no current would be available either.
Sorry, but you are wrong there.  The amount of power available through a typical USB connection is probably many hundreds of milliamps, at 5 volts.  And this power could be converted, by a switching power supply, to hundreds or even thousands of volts, and stored in an internal capacitor.  Once switched on, internally, and applied back to the data signals, the device could easily fry a few levels of circuitry in the computer.  It would be essentially unrepairable.



           Jim Bell, N7IJS.   The World's Last Tech-Plus Ham


  
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From coderman at gmail.com  Thu Oct 15 20:10:18 2015
From: coderman at gmail.com (coderman)
Date: Thu, 15 Oct 2015 20:10:18 -0700
Subject: FOIPA adventures
In-Reply-To: <CAD2Ti29j9qCnTCBEpaTj9B2NdWpLQoAiT02QzbitiART9tFg6A@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAJVRA1SaJpNaPQx=s_7VVM==ony2sH0aUG3w11cjNX6escSm8w@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAJVRA1TUfu40206TOzK2kBsgCvbgBYYXmyKZ3E5n4KQuoEtZyg@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAJVRA1QtgMky_hsDLsmFwiXcxE528bZaDOQsjTqqj4tR-dbGBQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAJVRA1RwoyoRs-REWnhGd8cHZM6EJvcziTUDXbU5A6TMigOT6A@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAJVRA1Rwaq1fvE8p-s1JwOANvMc7X2E75bx5eNd4KGJapt6Nuw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAJVRA1TU5Frg3WOJk+3ZFEH0QAFya5xZnwzCfCUE+hL1NhKUFg@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAJVRA1Q0SDo9Fj3KAU9vA3cxR2=7pwcdpO3Ex=yi6g2WtRAg6A@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAJVRA1Srrb08Z9XvG+rYq30p2E_MnhJA6ynOLpdT--6gCvwiyQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAJVRA1RXD2dr16TJZK-MPcJm7nR0Ov=Dp9i5Anf5hKNFs2hq7w@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAJVRA1S97DSPk0NBjgon1LS4HHuGtq_03dqFppUnWq+t61a41A@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAJVRA1SyW_wOUcFUo6STbiePO8HmLV9LgF-PCgugvuPRD_tKWA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAJVRA1QaYYF=hoSQiSd4SHNUj-W6hjEJDhy1KxR9CfFKDgNkew@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAJVRA1TvZxj_qz6_xK8h13LOD-5mE6iNvT9dnThf4ue0_=kY3Q@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAJVRA1RbeuzfiVAOqaZ15p8kr67jxcBoNMOrJkt3K86_=FuVXw@mail.gmail.com>
 <000701d0bcb7$94118e80$bc34ab80$@co.uk>
 <CAJVRA1SE1O-PqmkV8vX=q5j_xs-YFOpH=OLxSvwaT8BBvadQmA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAJVRA1TwM3Re8Tz6NPxp_CeY5C4K3QN+Ceo5VbW3JKMbBABv9g@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAJVRA1SbqTrEbUJ84rLFWdu6+psY5uUzu-ZsVfyUwoSaMRcGdQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAJVRA1RDN6HsLCbF_wsK+zARO9PaEn80R9FSGnWgGVF4XkbbpQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAJVRA1Rt2gKvgnM0MCiqf2Q4vJ8wWxm=KabcQXeBYSqn4zRvKg@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAJVRA1Q95CKTVahkfQeH_pwaGDcgJ-4OL2=9o5ckQrZLG8HeUA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAJVRA1SyX65OE9-7DQ1hP1fGWHxY8rvCqFXhKPu4Oy4o6wt0gg@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAJVRA1SgoLtLFS9AFf_d043AGDVbKp4djDtijDR+zfCRJ8twTA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAJVRA1SvN5ML7TQnOUqz78PhYv8aefz=k8-4fPOwv2uHUVF3_w@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAJVRA1Ry2EV7qaFHmZJ9cjm8-waCNBCzenO9BpqW+YKChEHX7w@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAJVRA1S5juVmB6Ouy0JWbdeJdj9yz0W6tKQDY2q_zi+AC461EA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAJVRA1SYO0ia4VGLwFwZFowkD75YR61MC1TNc1wzHbZtmhy1_w@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAJVRA1SqWMVy6m6KuiJWQQG_6XPWoB+86-p45PWKvfn8wg_jeA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAJVRA1RWaiCZtig6+Seyk-UN9M3h9+2iZ0Otnqb6n=AFcRAeRw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAJVRA1QzHeh=rs0hRf0sugLZdbXvAhK+2Yte5Tbt_Tnv5Tf8mg@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAJVRA1SdAW+36Z8yYTdSFTtz8S8U5aiELv5NiuXg5Rg-vaFYew@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAJVRA1Svk488ax6sd4oy52rfM_u_E1EuzhUAQt6cQ2Jy5yRx5g@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAJVRA1S4=X5P6hKnZu224GjseL5ws1vRm6Gk4gJ+DG06oLjaDA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAJVRA1RsgoKvADCcRz76vj1xjT+EQDB96tw7-sgg_pf+BGzA=A@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAJVRA1TOMYnBh0-B=uh6n2HsOsFdY+SKVG-=XqKi6WPNro++PA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAJVRA1Qao1qE2kBSbb_V5NPQ7PF--VFnYQpc=08wY2_ZURz4hg@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAJVRA1S45TEydVoKDxW9SfC0DKcSdxB_HfjrvcZQjU5uymfFOQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAD2Ti29j9qCnTCBEpaTj9B2NdWpLQoAiT02QzbitiART9tFg6A@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAJVRA1SAOUWi485z=_VRnhLu=EL1c8rVQOvdFz09-P4TjbLHww@mail.gmail.com>

On 10/15/15, grarpamp <grarpamp at gmail.com> wrote:
> ...
> PON's are like DOCSIS systems... if the last mile is encrypted, a simple
> letter to the patriots at the headend gets you what you want. If not,
> a simple tap in the field will do... for which there's no reason for that
> laborious expense, see letter above.

field taps avoid due process :)

https://peertech.org/files/docsis-mitm.jpg



>> well as "Metro Ethernet" over Optical Fibre.
>
> Similarly open and insecure.

indeed.

best regards,




From jdb10987 at yahoo.com  Thu Oct 15 13:55:51 2015
From: jdb10987 at yahoo.com (jim bell)
Date: Thu, 15 Oct 2015 20:55:51 +0000 (UTC)
Subject: USB killer v2.0
In-Reply-To: <56200F8A.2080507@riseup.net>
References: <56200F8A.2080507@riseup.net>
Message-ID: <94977725.1035513.1444942551033.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com>

Well, the reason I am the "last tech-plus ham in the world" is simply that as a byproduct of pissing off the Federal government, it refused to handle my timely-filed (January 2010) license renewal.  However, the law apparently says that I am a legal ham as long as the FCC is processing my renewal, which seems to amount to "forever".  So, while everyone else was upgrading (or expiring) I remain "the last tech-plus ham in the world".    https://www.reddit.com/r/amateurradio/comments/3dt9d5/why_does_ae7q_show_novice_license_grants_through/
My understanding, also, is that I am actually still entitled to merely sign a form to become a general.  Although, there is no guarantee that the FCC would act on THAT, either.          Jim Bell, N7IJS 
      From: Razer <Rayzer at riseup.net>
 To: jim bell <jdb10987 at yahoo.com>; cpunks <cypherpunks at cpunks.org> 
 Sent: Thursday, October 15, 2015 1:41 PM
 Subject: Re: USB killer v2.0
   
Are you really? Sigh... Shoulda never let my callsign lapse in the early
2000s, I'd be an advanced by now, and we'd be vying for who dropped dead
first.

RR, KC6NFR-expired



On 10/15/2015 12:34 PM, jim bell wrote:
> Jim Bell, N7IJS.  The World's Last Tech-Plus Ham



  
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From jdb10987 at yahoo.com  Thu Oct 15 14:15:50 2015
From: jdb10987 at yahoo.com (jim bell)
Date: Thu, 15 Oct 2015 21:15:50 +0000 (UTC)
Subject: USB killer v2.0
In-Reply-To: <5620067C.60002@gmail.com>
References: <5620067C.60002@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <1118754073.1037321.1444943751014.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com>

From: Blibbet <blibbet at gmail.com>
>Joe Fitzpatrick of SecuringHardware.com made a USB Sanitizer:
>https://github.com/securelyfitz/USBSanitizer/
>https://twitter.com/securelyfitz/status/583858610683441152
>https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V60TksZd7uk

>Xipiter also sells the USB Condom.
>https://www.crowdsupply.com/xipiter/usbcondom

>I wonder if either would stop USB Killer 2.0?
I don't know about the specific products you mentioned, but it would be trivial to build an intermediate product to protect the products from each other.  USB consists of four connections:  GND, V+, and two datas.  Aside from adding some intermediate series resistors of relatively low value, perhaps a few tens of ohms., diodes (silicon rectifier and perhaps Zener) would easily shunt over-voltages and block them.  Obviously, there would be a limit to what a given protection system would protect against:  Apply a 1000-volt, 10-amp power supply between V+ and ground, and SOMETHING is going to die!  But the 'threat model' is far simpler for real-world dangers.
The tricky part is that you are supposed to be able to USE the power provided through the V+ pin for external devices.  That's a convenience, but it is also somewhat of a danger.  Who knows how much protection is already built-in to a typical computer's USB ports?  A good 1000-volt PIV silicon diode in series with V+ would prevent an external circuit from forcing positive current into that pin.  Similarly, another 1-amp diode, connected to the V+ and GND, backwards, would prevent V+ from being pulled appreciably below ground.  Placing a 20 ohm resistor outboard of these diodes would limit current flow, etc.  The trick is that you might want to use the entire capability of voltage and current from that USB port, without IR (voltage loss over a resistor or diode) loss.  
There are also devices called "opto-isolators" (also called "opto-couplers") which could be used to provide well over 1000 volt isolation to the data signals themselves.                 Jim Bell, N7IJS







  
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From coderman at gmail.com  Thu Oct 15 21:56:24 2015
From: coderman at gmail.com (coderman)
Date: Thu, 15 Oct 2015 21:56:24 -0700
Subject: CYBER INTEGRITY ASSURANCE DIRECTORATE [was Re: [cryptome] Re:
 Cryptome for sale with access log files from 1996 for $50,000,000]
Message-ID: <CAJVRA1QcbBuXrgYiGh1GK2NvCBYyDRP5JA+LXPHnB3y+EvF4MQ@mail.gmail.com>

On 10/15/15, Andrew Hornback <achornback at gmail.com> wrote:
> Okay, I'll take the troll bait here...
>
> How would you go about verifying that his account has NOT been hacked?

proving NOT hacked is actually technically challenging in a rigorous sense!

first, you use a langsec runtime to ensure your measurements are verbatim,
 then...


best regards,




From coderman at gmail.com  Thu Oct 15 22:04:13 2015
From: coderman at gmail.com (coderman)
Date: Thu, 15 Oct 2015 22:04:13 -0700
Subject: USB killer v2.0
In-Reply-To: <1747118537.926949.1444931407781.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com>
References: <20151015102253.GA2655@sivokote.iziade.m$>
 <1747118537.926949.1444931407781.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <CAJVRA1Q-0DRaMQyLUz_PWA6awy_FqDvkPW8QnPdmAHHnQCqq-w@mail.gmail.com>

On 10/15/15, jim bell <jdb10987 at yahoo.com> wrote:
>  ...
> However, for REAL damage, it would be useful to pulse the kilovolts into the
> magnetron:  Generally if you increase the voltage by 10, the power increases
> by 100.  Feed that microwave magnetron with brief (microseconds) pulses of
> 40,000 volts, rather than 4000, and it will probably generate close to 100
> kilowatts.  It would be necessary to establish that such a system will not
> arc with over-voltage, either within the waveguide or the associated
> high-voltage wiring.

high voltage solid state built into shielding around the
waveguide/magnetron cavity presents smallest external hazard and
compact too.

of course, another order-of-mag level up in explosively pumped EW weapons :)

now for buckysheet airogel supercapacitors to get cheap...


best regards,




From shelley at misanthropia.org  Thu Oct 15 23:23:37 2015
From: shelley at misanthropia.org (Shelley)
Date: Thu, 15 Oct 2015 23:23:37 -0700
Subject: [cryptome] Cryptome for sale with access log files from 1996 for
 $50, 000, 000
In-Reply-To: <1506f4a1710.276e.4d489027c0c4d0c1b1ca03a1f48f1ffb@misanthropia.org>
References: <E1ZmaCO-0006rz-Sz@elasmtp-galgo.atl.sa.earthlink.net>
Message-ID: <20151016062320.6EE13C00018@frontend1.nyi.internal>

On October 14, 2015 9:32:30 PM John Young <jya at pipeline.com> wrote:

> Cryptome for sale with access log files from 1996 for $50,000,000.
--

So, its been a day since this was posted.  It appears as though neither JYA 
nor Cryptome have been compromised and the posts and tweets that have 
followed appear to be authentic JY.

I've been a bit busy today, so - have I missed it?  John's explanation of 
why he would keep access logs going back to 1996, when it was posted on 
Cryptome itself for years that logs were deleted daily or better - and he 
gave an affidavit to a grand jury stating that he had no such files?  Or 
perhaps why he wants to sell out in the first place?

If he's tired of doing it, I get it.  If he wants to enjoy his remaining 
time on the planet instead of dealing with this BS, more power to him.  But 
why go out this way?  The legacy he has built with that site is being 
crushed.  Without Cryptome, there would likely be no Wikileaks.  No 
Manning, no Snowden.

This isn't just about being identified in the logs, but their very 
existence.  Those of you who insist on trying to divert the conversation 
away by blaming people for not being behind 7 proxies are just wasting 
space.  We know, we preach it too!  That is not the point.

Personally, I don't give a fck if my info is in the log files.  If I did, I 
surely would not be posting to public lists about it.  I'm probably on 
enough "watch lists" already that visiting Cryptome isn't going to make a 
damn bit of difference.

No, I'm concerned for sources that gave info and documents to Cryptome.  
For people in countries where they possibly face dire consequences for even 
viewing such info (jail, torture, even death.)

It's not funny, and it's not right.  From what I've heard, a bunch of us 
would really appreciate an explanation from John - in plain English.

-Shelley





From shelley at misanthropia.org  Fri Oct 16 00:26:31 2015
From: shelley at misanthropia.org (Shelley)
Date: Fri, 16 Oct 2015 00:26:31 -0700
Subject: Truth teller or Truthiness?
In-Reply-To: <1506f8176d8.276e.4d489027c0c4d0c1b1ca03a1f48f1ffb@misanthropia.org>
References: <E1ZmaCO-0006rz-Sz@elasmtp-galgo.atl.sa.earthlink.net>
 <1506f506070.276e.4d489027c0c4d0c1b1ca03a1f48f1ffb@misanthropia.org>
Message-ID: <20151016072615.788D0C00016@frontend1.nyi.internal>

This is why it matters:

https://wikileaks.org/wiki/John_Young

https://wikileaks.org/wiki/Cryptome

https://wikileaks.org/wiki/Category:Whistleblowers/United_States

https://wikileaks.org/wiki/Category:Truth_tellers

John Young is listed as a Truth Teller and a Whistleblower.  He is 
mentioned on the same pages as Chelsea Manning, sitting in prison.  In the 
same breath as Edward Snowden.  Thomas Drake.  Mark Klein.  You get the 
picture.

This is why it matters.  Whether John Young deserves to be there among 
people who have truly risked everything to tell the truth is something only 
his actions will demonstrate.

-Shelley






From jdb10987 at yahoo.com  Thu Oct 15 22:25:36 2015
From: jdb10987 at yahoo.com (jim bell)
Date: Fri, 16 Oct 2015 05:25:36 +0000 (UTC)
Subject: USB killer v2.0
In-Reply-To: <CAJVRA1Q-0DRaMQyLUz_PWA6awy_FqDvkPW8QnPdmAHHnQCqq-w@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAJVRA1Q-0DRaMQyLUz_PWA6awy_FqDvkPW8QnPdmAHHnQCqq-w@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <2031837382.1249642.1444973136632.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com>

  From: coderman <coderman at gmail.com>


>> However, for REAL damage, it would be useful to pulse the kilovolts into the
>> magnetron:  Generally if you increase the voltage by 10, the power increases
>> by 100.  Feed that microwave magnetron with brief (microseconds) pulses of
>> 40,000 volts, rather than 4000, and it will probably generate close to 100
>> kilowatts.  It would be necessary to establish that such a system will not
>> arc with over-voltage, either within the waveguide or the associated
>> high-voltage wiring.
>high voltage solid state built into shielding around the
>waveguide/magnetron cavity presents smallest external hazard and
>compact too.
>of course, another order-of-mag level up in explosively pumped EW weapons :)
http://science.howstuffworks.com/e-bomb3.htm





  
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From coderman at gmail.com  Fri Oct 16 05:35:08 2015
From: coderman at gmail.com (coderman)
Date: Fri, 16 Oct 2015 05:35:08 -0700
Subject: Future True [was: Re: Truth teller or Truthiness?]
Message-ID: <CAJVRA1Qt_MttECrnPZPGAmVKW_VS6_wmeGYDM6GD6Sk-FTZqVA@mail.gmail.com>

On 10/16/15, Zenaan Harkness <zen at freedbms.net> wrote:
> ...
> A conniving reverse psychology gambit play if ever there was one...
> devious I tell you all, DEVIOUS!!!
>
> Now the mass flocks of masses will sheepily flock in trusting sheeple
> flocks to the enigmatic tome of the almighty: For-ev-er young, I wanna
> be, a John Crypt-Doe.


Crypto Me, right now, Zenaan! In this thread!!

>From Truthiness to Authentic Truth, JYA has passed beyond - to Future Truth.

it's so true, you may believe it a lie today.
 yet one day, the clairvoyant JYA returns vindicated.
  in Full Truth.  for a question no one thought to think at the time.
   except One.


remember my dear earth humans:
 adjust your receiver minds,
  for it is clearly not the signal missing in this equation!


best regards,




From jya at pipeline.com  Fri Oct 16 03:21:43 2015
From: jya at pipeline.com (John Young)
Date: Fri, 16 Oct 2015 06:21:43 -0400
Subject: Cryptome for sale with access log files from 1996 for $50,
 000, 000
In-Reply-To: <20151016073110.GA2703@sivokote.iziade.m$>
References: <E1ZmaCO-0006rz-Sz@elasmtp-galgo.atl.sa.earthlink.net>
 <20151016062320.6EE13C00018@frontend1.nyi.internal>
 <20151016073110.GA2703@sivokote.iziade.m$>
Message-ID: <E1Zn27G-0001AV-Ef@elasmtp-banded.atl.sa.earthlink.net>

Cryptome's offer to sell itself and logs for the amount Omidyar
is tax writing off  at The Intercept, and skying the donation for its archive
to the weekly stipend of top Snowden exploiters, is a parody of
what highly-profitable web sites like e-Bay, ISPs, equipment, program
and cybersecurity peddlers, and net operators and overseers are doing.

Access, traffic and transaction logs are ginned, sorted, stored, munged,
manipulated, sold, stolen, and more, all along the many packeting, hops,
boosts, diversions, conversions, hand-offs to various devices of the route
from user to destination. End point of user and the destination is merely
one bit of data, well, two bits, with gobs of bits quietly being gobbled
elsewhere, camouflaged by the delusion of privacy policies, anonymization,
and website log deletion or never ginning logs.

Cryptome has no logs, never has. Its various ISPs have copious logs of
many kinds (not just the simplistic access logs meant to delude website
operators), along with all the other transceivers of visitor activities and
transaction metadata and metametadata.

Cryptome has never run a server, just buy the service. We do track our
ISPs' activities and through them the ganglia of the Internet to see what
happens to our files.

Voracious bots have always been the heaviest users of Cryptome, siphoning
files hourly, daily, monthly, then providing them to users at other locations
to gin their own families of data for sale to govs, coms, edus, banks,
investigators, investors.

Google, Bing, Internet Archive, Torrent, drops, govs, spies, academics,
researchers, cyberseckers, take, steal actually (as do we), Internet files
for their own use which is primarily to gather data on users, the precious
jewels of the Internet which underwrite its so-called free service.

Public benefit aggregators like Internet Archive, Wikipedia, Google
docs, universities, NGOs, are the prime abusers of visitor data, both
to their websites and by special privilege of advising visitors on how
to protect their privacy while being pickpocketed of personal data.

Cybersecurity con artists are as bad by deluding their visitors and
customers about how to protect themselves with encryption, Tor,
anonymization, OTR, secret chats, deep web, blah, blah. All these
con artists gin their own logs of trusting-users data, then either
hand it over to authorities, sell it covertly, share with cohorts
and standards orgs, write papers and give speeches soliciting
customers, testify in Congress and courts, inform grand juries,
cut plea bargains, brag about resisting NSLs, set up warrant
canaries, share tips with donors and investors, yadda, yadda,
do donate generously, but best, generate taxable income,
tax write-offs, never-ending war, paranoia and FUD.

Cryptome has no privacy or security policy to deceive visitors, and
periodically announce that, and warn not to trust us or any other
website, especially those which advocate HTTPS, anonymization,
privacy, security and crow about civil liberties and public benefit.



At 03:31 AM 10/16/2015, you wrote:
>On Thu, Oct 15, 2015 at 11:23:37PM -0700, Shelley wrote:
> >
> > It's not funny, and it's not right.  From what I've heard, a bunch
> > of us would really appreciate an explanation from John - in plain
> > English.
> >
>
>I am not JYA's lawyer.
>
>I strongly suspect JYA didn't sell any logs from this offer and never
>will at price of current value of $50M since the logs almost surely
>might be owned for a small fraction of this.
>
>IMHO it was made for one or more of following: joke, sarcasm, warning.
>
>As someone already wrote at least twice:
>NSA almost surely have all these logs.





From jya at pipeline.com  Fri Oct 16 03:33:26 2015
From: jya at pipeline.com (John Young)
Date: Fri, 16 Oct 2015 06:33:26 -0400
Subject: Truth teller or Truthiness?
In-Reply-To: <20151016072615.788D0C00016@frontend1.nyi.internal>
References: <E1ZmaCO-0006rz-Sz@elasmtp-galgo.atl.sa.earthlink.net>
 <1506f506070.276e.4d489027c0c4d0c1b1ca03a1f48f1ffb@misanthropia.org>
 <20151016072615.788D0C00016@frontend1.nyi.internal>
Message-ID: <E1Zn2IY-0001BO-Ue@elasmtp-spurfowl.atl.sa.earthlink.net>

WikiLeaks self-promotional honorifics are humorously manipulative
like any other prize, award, condescending media campaign.

Indignant smears are beneficial: Don't trust Cryptome or John Young.


At 03:26 AM 10/16/2015, you wrote:
>This is why it matters:
>
>https://wikileaks.org/wiki/John_Young
>
>https://wikileaks.org/wiki/Cryptome
>
>https://wikileaks.org/wiki/Category:Whistleblowers/United_States
>
>https://wikileaks.org/wiki/Category:Truth_tellers
>
>John Young is listed as a Truth Teller and a Whistleblower.  He is 
>mentioned on the same pages as Chelsea Manning, sitting in 
>prison.  In the same breath as Edward Snowden.  Thomas Drake.  Mark 
>Klein.  You get the picture.
>
>This is why it matters.  Whether John Young deserves to be there 
>among people who have truly risked everything to tell the truth is 
>something only his actions will demonstrate.
>
>-Shelley
>
>
>





From shelley at misanthropia.org  Fri Oct 16 06:36:03 2015
From: shelley at misanthropia.org (Shelley)
Date: Fri, 16 Oct 2015 06:36:03 -0700
Subject: [cryptome] Re: Truth teller or Truthiness?
In-Reply-To: <E1Zn2IY-0001BO-Ue@elasmtp-spurfowl.atl.sa.earthlink.net>
References: <E1ZmaCO-0006rz-Sz@elasmtp-galgo.atl.sa.earthlink.net>
 <1506f506070.276e.4d489027c0c4d0c1b1ca03a1f48f1ffb@misanthropia.org>
 <20151016072615.788D0C00016@frontend1.nyi.internal>
 <E1Zn2IY-0001BO-Ue@elasmtp-spurfowl.atl.sa.earthlink.net>
Message-ID: <20151016133547.8F5C2C0001F@frontend1.nyi.internal>

On October 16, 2015 3:32:16 AM John Young <jya at pipeline.com> wrote:

> WikiLeaks self-promotional honorifics are humorously manipulative
> like any other prize, award, condescending media campaign.
>
> Indignant smears are beneficial: Don't trust Cryptome or John Young.
>

You know what, John: you're right.  It doesn't matter what Mendax calls 
you.  Some of us have placed you in that category all on our own.

Recent events would not have been quite as alarming, otherwise.

-S



> At 03:26 AM 10/16/2015, you wrote:
> >This is why it matters:
> >
> >https://wikileaks.org/wiki/John_Young
> >
> >https://wikileaks.org/wiki/Cryptome
> >
> >https://wikileaks.org/wiki/Category:Whistleblowers/United_States
> >
> >https://wikileaks.org/wiki/Category:Truth_tellers
> >
> >John Young is listed as a Truth Teller and a Whistleblower.  He is
> >mentioned on the same pages as Chelsea Manning, sitting in
> >prison.  In the same breath as Edward Snowden.  Thomas Drake.  Mark
> >Klein.  You get the picture.
> >
> >This is why it matters.  Whether John Young deserves to be there
> >among people who have truly risked everything to tell the truth is
> >something only his actions will demonstrate.
> >
> >-Shelley
> >
> >
> >
>
>
>





From shelley at misanthropia.org  Fri Oct 16 07:39:28 2015
From: shelley at misanthropia.org (Shelley)
Date: Fri, 16 Oct 2015 07:39:28 -0700
Subject: 'unsub from cryptome ml'
In-Reply-To: <trinity-bd69bf8e-5cef-43c7-b46c-e319538123c3-1445005774581@3capp-mailcom-lxa05>
References: <trinity-bd69bf8e-5cef-43c7-b46c-e319538123c3-1445005774581@3capp-mailcom-lxa05>
Message-ID: <20151016143912.D2847C0001A@frontend1.nyi.internal>

On October 16, 2015 7:36:25 AM "Dr. J Feinstein" <drjfeinstein at mail.com> wrote:

> Same
>
> jf
>
> > >> unsubscribe
> > 'Unsubscribe' request denied.
> > Your request was rejected for the following reason:
> > You are not on the list 'cryptome'.
> > Shocker.
> > -Travis

Must be something odd going on over there.  Is someone trying to unsub 
everyone?

-S





From jdb10987 at yahoo.com  Fri Oct 16 00:57:45 2015
From: jdb10987 at yahoo.com (jim bell)
Date: Fri, 16 Oct 2015 07:57:45 +0000 (UTC)
Subject: [cryptome] Cryptome for sale with access log files from 1996
 for $50, 000, 000
In-Reply-To: <20151016073110.GA2703@sivokote.iziade.m$>
References: <20151016073110.GA2703@sivokote.iziade.m$>
Message-ID: <443513627.1285938.1444982265621.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com>

  From: Georgi Guninski <guninski at guninski.com>
>I am not JYA's lawyer.
>I strongly suspect JYA didn't sell any logs from this offer and never
>will at price of current value of $50M since the logs almost surely
>might be owned for a small fraction of this.
>IMHO it was made for one or more of following: joke, sarcasm, warning.
I took it as a joke and sarcasm.

>As someone already wrote at least twice:
>NSA almost surely have all these logs.
Just as the NSA should have all of Hillary's emails.  (If they don't...why not?)  Maybe the knowledge that the NSA 'had to' have those emails made it necessary that they didn't disappear elsewhere.
Myself, I remain greatly appreciative that John Young has worked for for nearly 20 years exposing any kind of information that some government, somewhere, doesn't want to see publicized.  The value of that is incalculable.
           Jim Bell






  
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From Rayzer at riseup.net  Fri Oct 16 10:02:24 2015
From: Rayzer at riseup.net (Razer)
Date: Fri, 16 Oct 2015 10:02:24 -0700
Subject: Fwd: Ecartis command results: unsubscribe
In-Reply-To: <ecartis-10162015101732.22180.1@freelists.org>
References: <ecartis-10162015101732.22180.1@freelists.org>
Message-ID: <56212DA0.5010400@riseup.net>


And there you have it... The end result of Mike Best's troll... Gleaned
addresses being run through cryptome's listerver. The server admin could
detail from which IP these requests originated.

RR


-------- Forwarded Message --------
Subject: 	Ecartis command results: unsubscribe
Date: 	Fri, 16 Oct 2015 10:17:32 -0400 (EDT)
From: 	FreeLists Mailing List Manager <ecartis at freelists.org>
To: 	rayzer



Request received for list 'cryptome' via request address.

>> unsubscribe
'Unsubscribe' request denied.
Your request was rejected for the following reason:

You are not on the list 'cryptome'.





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From Rayzer at riseup.net  Fri Oct 16 10:08:21 2015
From: Rayzer at riseup.net (Razer)
Date: Fri, 16 Oct 2015 10:08:21 -0700
Subject: [cryptome] Cryptome for sale with access log files from 1996 for
 $50, 000, 000
In-Reply-To: <20151016062320.6EE13C00018@frontend1.nyi.internal>
References: <E1ZmaCO-0006rz-Sz@elasmtp-galgo.atl.sa.earthlink.net>
 <20151016062320.6EE13C00018@frontend1.nyi.internal>
Message-ID: <56212F05.30405@riseup.net>



On 10/15/2015 11:23 PM, Shelley wrote:
> This isn't just about being identified in the logs, but their very
> existence.

I'll repeat myself, with emphasis:

> On 10/15/2015 02:05 AM, oshwm wrote:
>> Yeh, apparently Pierre Omidyar has offered John a position as journalist
>> and so John no longer needs to run Cryptome :D
> John's doing a 'BB', and he hasn't even done time... Because there's
> nothing to do time over, and TRULY, nothing worthwhile to see in
> Cryptome's logs. *The only potential 'stink' here is if John had said he wasn't keeping
> logs, and he did so HIMSELF. If Network Solutions did so and kept the
> logs as required by the feds (and by the feds for perpetuity if
> there's encrypted data), there's fuckingwellnothing John could do
> about it, and IF he could acquire them from NetSol to sell signed and
> numbered editions, it NOT on him, but on all the idiots who visited
> his site 'barefoot'.*
>
>
> RR


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From zen at freedbms.net  Fri Oct 16 03:16:35 2015
From: zen at freedbms.net (Zenaan Harkness)
Date: Fri, 16 Oct 2015 10:16:35 +0000
Subject: Cryptome for sale with access log files from 1996 for $50, 000,
 000
In-Reply-To: <E1ZmaCO-0006rz-Sz@elasmtp-galgo.atl.sa.earthlink.net>
References: <E1ZmaCO-0006rz-Sz@elasmtp-galgo.atl.sa.earthlink.net>
Message-ID: <CAOsGNSRLYfjKdFGxoxh=Z2dFXZxJdXG5wN9ZEqhN2K39JnedjA@mail.gmail.com>

On 10/15/15, John Young <jya at pipeline.com> wrote:
> Cryptome for sale with access log files from 1996 for $50,000,000.

Well, if you take this as technically literally as possible:
- as few as two log files counts as "access log files", and
- say those log files recently discovered as part of a cryptome
archive, counts as "from 1996", as in "since 1996, just not inclusive,
nor complete"

How very punk, and how very cypher.


> Authentic Cryptome Archive for $10,000.
> <https://t.co/38zMD3KlpS>https://cryptome.org/donations.htm

This is all hilarious - $10K, or bittorrent. At least he included the
donation link...

John, just for the record, and from most all of us I'm certain, thank you again.

No, I don't object to any of the questions that have been asked -
something about speech and remotely related to fr... fre... freedom
was that? Ah, whatever... memory ain't the best right now.

Peace,
Zenaan




From ecartis at freelists.org  Fri Oct 16 07:17:09 2015
From: ecartis at freelists.org (FreeLists Mailing List Manager)
Date: Fri, 16 Oct 2015 10:17:09 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: Ecartis command results: unsubscribe
Message-ID: <ecartis-10162015101709.22136.1@freelists.org>

Request received for list 'cryptome' via request address.

>> unsubscribe
'Unsubscribe' request denied.
Your request was rejected for the following reason:

You are not on the list 'cryptome'.


Shocker.

-Travis

-- 
Twitter <https://twitter.com/tbiehn> | LinkedIn
<http://www.linkedin.com/in/travisbiehn> | GitHub <http://github.com/tbiehn>
| TravisBiehn.com <http://www.travisbiehn.com> | Google Plus
<https://plus.google.com/+TravisBiehn>

--001a114fa5b84cd23a0522399188
Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

<div dir=3D"ltr">The glories of SMTP and the From: address.<div>DKIM/DMARC/=
SPF too hard for <a href=3D"http://freelists.org">freelists.org</a>?</div><=
div><br></div><div><pre style=3D"color:rgb(0,0,0);word-wrap:break-word;whit=
e-space:pre-wrap">Received: from <a href=3D"http://freelists.org">freelists=
.org</a> by <a href=3D"http://freelists.org">freelists.org</a> (ECARTIS/1.0=
.0);
	Fri, 16 Oct 2015 10:17:09 -0400 (EDT)
Date: Fri, 16 Oct 2015 10:17:09 -0400 (EDT)
From: FreeLists Mailing List Manager &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:ecartis at freelist=
s.org">ecartis at freelists.org</a>&gt;
To: <a href=3D"mailto:tbiehn at gmail.com">tbiehn at gmail.com</a>
Message-ID: &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:ecartis-10162015101709.22136.1 at freelists.=
org">ecartis-10162015101709.22136.1 at freelists.org</a>&gt;
X-ecartis-antiloop: <a href=3D"http://freelists.org">freelists.org</a>
Precedence: list
Expiry-Date: Sat, 17 Oct 2015 10:17:09 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: Ecartis command results: unsubscribe

Request received for list &#39;cryptome&#39; via request address.

&gt;&gt; unsubscribe
&#39;Unsubscribe&#39; request denied.
Your request was rejected for the following reason:

You are not on the list &#39;cryptome&#39;.

</pre></div><div>Shocker.</div><div><br></div><div>-Travis<br clear=3D"all"=
><div><br></div>-- <br><div class=3D"gmail_signature"><div dir=3D"ltr"> <a =
href=3D"https://twitter.com/tbiehn" target=3D"_blank">Twitter</a> | <a href=
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gle Plus</a><br></div></div>
</div></div>

--001a114fa5b84cd23a0522399188--




From drwho at virtadpt.net  Fri Oct 16 10:25:03 2015
From: drwho at virtadpt.net (The Doctor)
Date: Fri, 16 Oct 2015 10:25:03 -0700
Subject: [cryptome] Re: Truth teller or Truthiness?
In-Reply-To: <trinity-3a7b7c55-4615-4f38-a2e0-48ad915456ab-1445003873121@3capp-mailcom-lxa05>
References: <E1ZmaCO-0006rz-Sz@elasmtp-galgo.atl.sa.earthlink.net>
 <1506f506070.276e.4d489027c0c4d0c1b1ca03a1f48f1ffb@misanthropia.org>
 <20151016072615.788D0C00016@frontend1.nyi.internal>
 <E1Zn2IY-0001BO-Ue@elasmtp-spurfowl.atl.sa.earthlink.net>
 <20151016133547.8F5C2C0001F@frontend1.nyi.internal>
 <trinity-3a7b7c55-4615-4f38-a2e0-48ad915456ab-1445003873121@3capp-mailcom-lxa05>
Message-ID: <20151016102503.9626c8c3962f048ba5d9ff4f@virtadpt.net>

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA512

On Fri, 16 Oct 2015 15:57:53 +0200
"Dr. J Feinstein" <drjfeinstein at mail.com> wrote:

> With truths like this who needs parody?

This is the Internet.  Can anybody tell parody or satire from reality these days?  Would anybody actually believe you if you told them it was?

- -- 
The Doctor [412/724/301/703/415] [ZS]

PGP: 0x807B17C1 / 7960 1CDC 85C9 0B63 8D9F  DD89 3BD8 FF2B 807B 17C1
WWW: https://drwho.virtadpt.net/

"If you don't teach them to read, you can fool them whenever you like."

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From tbiehn at gmail.com  Fri Oct 16 07:25:10 2015
From: tbiehn at gmail.com (Travis Biehn)
Date: Fri, 16 Oct 2015 10:25:10 -0400
Subject: 'unsub from cryptome ml'
Message-ID: <CAKtE3zeMbrs+J++PQAi1X1+TdhfgnK_hQZsNEGjBhqoeGWONzw@mail.gmail.com>

The glories of SMTP and the From: address.
DKIM/DMARC/SPF too hard for freelists.org?

From drwho at virtadpt.net  Fri Oct 16 10:26:30 2015
From: drwho at virtadpt.net (The Doctor)
Date: Fri, 16 Oct 2015 10:26:30 -0700
Subject: 'unsub from cryptome ml'
In-Reply-To: <20151016143912.D2847C0001A@frontend1.nyi.internal>
References: <trinity-bd69bf8e-5cef-43c7-b46c-e319538123c3-1445005774581@3capp-mailcom-lxa05>
 <20151016143912.D2847C0001A@frontend1.nyi.internal>
Message-ID: <20151016102630.4df5d07ea2ddd5fcd910ecf6@virtadpt.net>

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA512

On Fri, 16 Oct 2015 07:39:28 -0700
Shelley <shelley at misanthropia.org> wrote:


> Must be something odd going on over there.  Is someone trying to unsub 
> everyone?

<checks>

Well, shit.

Maybe?

- -- 
The Doctor [412/724/301/703/415] [ZS]

PGP: 0x807B17C1 / 7960 1CDC 85C9 0B63 8D9F  DD89 3BD8 FF2B 807B 17C1
WWW: https://drwho.virtadpt.net/

"If you don't teach them to read, you can fool them whenever you like."

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From guninski at guninski.com  Fri Oct 16 00:31:10 2015
From: guninski at guninski.com (Georgi Guninski)
Date: Fri, 16 Oct 2015 10:31:10 +0300
Subject: [cryptome] Cryptome for sale with access log files from 1996
 for $50, 000, 000
In-Reply-To: <20151016062320.6EE13C00018@frontend1.nyi.internal>
References: <E1ZmaCO-0006rz-Sz@elasmtp-galgo.atl.sa.earthlink.net>
 <20151016062320.6EE13C00018@frontend1.nyi.internal>
Message-ID: <20151016073110.GA2703@sivokote.iziade.m$>

On Thu, Oct 15, 2015 at 11:23:37PM -0700, Shelley wrote:
> 
> It's not funny, and it's not right.  From what I've heard, a bunch
> of us would really appreciate an explanation from John - in plain
> English.
>

I am not JYA's lawyer.

I strongly suspect JYA didn't sell any logs from this offer and never
will at price of current value of $50M since the logs almost surely
might be owned for a small fraction of this.

IMHO it was made for one or more of following: joke, sarcasm, warning.

As someone already wrote at least twice:
NSA almost surely have all these logs.




From jya at pipeline.com  Fri Oct 16 07:54:37 2015
From: jya at pipeline.com (John Young)
Date: Fri, 16 Oct 2015 10:54:37 -0400
Subject: [cryptome] Re: Truth teller or Truthiness?
In-Reply-To: <20151016133547.8F5C2C0001F@frontend1.nyi.internal>
References: <E1ZmaCO-0006rz-Sz@elasmtp-galgo.atl.sa.earthlink.net>
 <1506f506070.276e.4d489027c0c4d0c1b1ca03a1f48f1ffb@misanthropia.org>
 <20151016072615.788D0C00016@frontend1.nyi.internal>
 <E1Zn2IY-0001BO-Ue@elasmtp-spurfowl.atl.sa.earthlink.net>
 <20151016133547.8F5C2C0001F@frontend1.nyi.internal>
Message-ID: <E1Zn6NU-0003nE-4a@elasmtp-dupuy.atl.sa.earthlink.net>

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Julian_Assange

Assange began 
<https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hacker_%28computer_security%29>hacking 
under the name Mendax (from 
<https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Horace>Horace's splendide mendax: 
"nobly untruthful").

That was Julian's teeny-bop spy parody proto-Hebdo. Slyer wit now 
with middle-aged foreign
affairs pedantry. Endless war askance a pension plan.


>You know what, John: you're right.  It doesn't matter what Mendax 
>calls you.  Some of us have placed you in that category all on our own.
>
>Recent events would not have been quite as alarming, otherwise.
>
>-S
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From jya at pipeline.com  Fri Oct 16 08:09:26 2015
From: jya at pipeline.com (John Young)
Date: Fri, 16 Oct 2015 11:09:26 -0400
Subject: 'unsub from cryptome ml'
In-Reply-To: <20151016143912.D2847C0001A@frontend1.nyi.internal>
References: <trinity-bd69bf8e-5cef-43c7-b46c-e319538123c3-1445005774581@3capp-mailcom-lxa05>
 <20151016143912.D2847C0001A@frontend1.nyi.internal>
Message-ID: <E1Zn6bj-000169-Ff@elasmtp-junco.atl.sa.earthlink.net>

Simple bounce from a non-member submission. Usually as a cc of cpunks messages.

Axe the cryptome ml cc on responses.


At 10:39 AM 10/16/2015, you wrote:
>On October 16, 2015 7:36:25 AM "Dr. J Feinstein" 
><drjfeinstein at mail.com> wrote:
>
>>Same
>>
>>jf
>>
>> > >> unsubscribe
>> > 'Unsubscribe' request denied.
>> > Your request was rejected for the following reason:
>> > You are not on the list 'cryptome'.
>> > Shocker.
>> > -Travis
>
>Must be something odd going on over there.  Is someone trying to 
>unsub everyone?
>
>-S
>
>





From zen at freedbms.net  Fri Oct 16 04:24:50 2015
From: zen at freedbms.net (Zenaan Harkness)
Date: Fri, 16 Oct 2015 11:24:50 +0000
Subject: Truth teller or Truthiness?
In-Reply-To: <E1Zn2IY-0001BO-Ue@elasmtp-spurfowl.atl.sa.earthlink.net>
References: <E1ZmaCO-0006rz-Sz@elasmtp-galgo.atl.sa.earthlink.net>
 <1506f506070.276e.4d489027c0c4d0c1b1ca03a1f48f1ffb@misanthropia.org>
 <20151016072615.788D0C00016@frontend1.nyi.internal>
 <E1Zn2IY-0001BO-Ue@elasmtp-spurfowl.atl.sa.earthlink.net>
Message-ID: <CAOsGNSQo=N8GdocbXtNuQRxL35_FMeLXCxBVP8v3uPdya02jNg@mail.gmail.com>

On 10/16/15, John Young <jya at pipeline.com> wrote:
> WikiLeaks self-promotional honorifics are humorously manipulative
> like any other prize, award, condescending media campaign.
>
> Indignant smears are beneficial: Don't trust Cryptome or John Young.

A conniving reverse psychology gambit play if ever there was one...
devious I tell you all, DEVIOUS!!!

Now the mass flocks of masses will sheepily flock in trusting sheeple
flocks to the enigmatic tome of the almighty: For-ev-er young, I wanna
be, a John Crypt-Doe.

Yee haw, let the flusty treeple shock!




From Rayzer at riseup.net  Fri Oct 16 11:37:06 2015
From: Rayzer at riseup.net (Razer)
Date: Fri, 16 Oct 2015 11:37:06 -0700
Subject: Fwd: Ecartis command results: unsubscribe
In-Reply-To: <CANFTA08n_jk3jwrKKYPq+uqO4smTz=nwerez0VncWkSMtCG=hQ@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CANFTA08n_jk3jwrKKYPq+uqO4smTz=nwerez0VncWkSMtCG=hQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <562143D2.3050802@riseup.net>



On 10/16/2015 10:14 AM, Michael Best wrote:
> A masterful troll spoiled by the standard protection against malicious/fake unsubscribe requests. Oh, if only I had accounted for it! 
> I received one too, and several times during the last few weeks I've gotten emails telling me that someone was trying to log into my freelists settings. I have no idea who it was, so I'm not going to accuse anyone without any evidence whatsoever. 
> Glad to see you're not jumping to conclusions, Occam's Rayzer. ;-)
>
>


Your trolling the list with the basically useless information that JYA
sold logs THAT HIS SITE OPERATION MAY NOT HAVE GENERATED (they may be
netsol's right?) created a spike in the use of the word "Cryptome" etc
on the radar of hackers and spammers, so yeah, you're responsible Mike.

I can almost guarantee it wouldn't have happened without you.

RR


>     And there you have it... The end result of Mike Best's troll...
>     Gleaned
>     addresses being run through cryptome's listerver. The server admin
>     could
>     detail from which IP these requests originated. RR --------
>     Forwarded Message --------
>     Subject: Ecartis command results: unsubscribe
>     Date: Fri, 16 Oct 2015 10:17:32 -0400 (EDT)
>     From: FreeLists Mailing List Manager <ecartis at freelists.org
>     <mailto:ecartis at freelists.org>>
>     To: rayzer Request received for list 'cryptome' via request
>     address. >>/unsubscribe /'Unsubscribe' request denied.
>     Your request was rejected for the following reason: You are not on
>     the list 'cryptome'.
>
>


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From shelley at misanthropia.org  Fri Oct 16 11:48:29 2015
From: shelley at misanthropia.org (Shelley)
Date: Fri, 16 Oct 2015 11:48:29 -0700
Subject: Fwd: Ecartis command results: unsubscribe
In-Reply-To: <56212DA0.5010400@riseup.net>
References: <ecartis-10162015101732.22180.1@freelists.org>
 <56212DA0.5010400@riseup.net>
Message-ID: <20151016184813.222B1C0001D@frontend1.nyi.internal>

...you're being an idiot, Ray.  Seriously.  C'mon.

-S


----------
On October 16, 2015 10:13:13 AM Razer <Rayzer at riseup.net> wrote:

>
> And there you have it... The end result of Mike Best's troll... Gleaned
> addresses being run through cryptome's listerver. The server admin could
> detail from which IP these requests originated.
>
> RR
>
>
> -------- Forwarded Message --------
> Subject: 	Ecartis command results: unsubscribe
> Date: 	Fri, 16 Oct 2015 10:17:32 -0400 (EDT)
> From: 	FreeLists Mailing List Manager <ecartis at freelists.org>
> To: 	rayzer
>
>
>
> Request received for list 'cryptome' via request address.
>
> >> unsubscribe
> 'Unsubscribe' request denied.
> Your request was rejected for the following reason:
>
> You are not on the list 'cryptome'.
>
>
>
>
>





From themikebest at gmail.com  Fri Oct 16 10:14:49 2015
From: themikebest at gmail.com (Michael Best)
Date: Fri, 16 Oct 2015 13:14:49 -0400
Subject: Fwd: Ecartis command results: unsubscribe
Message-ID: <CANFTA08n_jk3jwrKKYPq+uqO4smTz=nwerez0VncWkSMtCG=hQ@mail.gmail.com>

A masterful troll spoiled by the standard protection against
malicious/fake unsubscribe requests. Oh, if only I had accounted for
it!

I received one too, and several times during the last few weeks I've
gotten emails telling me that someone was trying to log into my
freelists settings. I have no idea who it was, so I'm not going to
accuse anyone without any evidence whatsoever.

Glad to see you're not jumping to conclusions, Occam's Rayzer. ;-)


And there you have it... The end result of Mike Best's troll... Gleaned
> addresses being run through cryptome's listerver. The server admin could
> detail from which IP these requests originated. RR -------- Forwarded
> Message --------
> Subject: Ecartis command results: unsubscribe
> Date: Fri, 16 Oct 2015 10:17:32 -0400 (EDT)
> From: FreeLists Mailing List Manager <ecartis at freelists.org>
> To: rayzer Request received for list 'cryptome' via request address. >>*
> unsubscribe *'Unsubscribe' request denied.
> Your request was rejected for the following reason: You are not on the
> list 'cryptome'.
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From Rayzer at riseup.net  Fri Oct 16 13:41:32 2015
From: Rayzer at riseup.net (Razer)
Date: Fri, 16 Oct 2015 13:41:32 -0700
Subject: Fwd: Ecartis command results: unsubscribe
In-Reply-To: <20151016184813.222B1C0001D@frontend1.nyi.internal>
References: <ecartis-10162015101732.22180.1@freelists.org>
 <56212DA0.5010400@riseup.net>
 <20151016184813.222B1C0001D@frontend1.nyi.internal>
Message-ID: <562160FC.6030506@riseup.net>



On 10/16/2015 11:48 AM, Shelley wrote:
> ...you're being an idiot, Ray.  Seriously.  C'mon.
>
> -S
>

It's *IMHO* "...you're being an idiot..."

i stand by my statements:

> (Michael Best, Your) trolling the list with the basically useless information that JYA
> sold logs THAT HIS SITE OPERATION MAY NOT HAVE GENERATED (they may be
> netsol's right?) created a spike in the use of the word "Cryptome" etc
> on the radar of hackers and spammers, so yeah, you're responsible Mike.
>
> I can almost guarantee it wouldn't have happened without you.

and earlier:

>
> The only potential 'stink' here is if John had said he wasn't keeping
> logs, and he did so HIMSELF. If Network Solutions did so and kept the
> logs as required by the feds (and by the feds for perpetuity if
> there's encrypted data), there's fuckingwellnothing John could do
> about it, and IF he could acquire them from NetSol to sell signed and
> numbered editions, it NOT on him, but on all the idiots who visited
> his site 'barefoot'.*

RR


>
> ----------
> On October 16, 2015 10:13:13 AM Razer <Rayzer at riseup.net> wrote:
>
>>
>> And there you have it... The end result of Mike Best's troll... Gleaned
>> addresses being run through cryptome's listerver. The server admin could
>> detail from which IP these requests originated.
>>
>> RR
>>
>>
>> -------- Forwarded Message --------
>> Subject:     Ecartis command results: unsubscribe
>> Date:     Fri, 16 Oct 2015 10:17:32 -0400 (EDT)
>> From:     FreeLists Mailing List Manager <ecartis at freelists.org>
>> To:     rayzer
>>
>>
>>
>> Request received for list 'cryptome' via request address.
>>
>> >> unsubscribe
>> 'Unsubscribe' request denied.
>> Your request was rejected for the following reason:
>>
>> You are not on the list 'cryptome'.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>
>
>


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From Rayzer at riseup.net  Fri Oct 16 13:42:11 2015
From: Rayzer at riseup.net (Razer)
Date: Fri, 16 Oct 2015 13:42:11 -0700
Subject: Fwd: Ecartis command results: unsubscribe
In-Reply-To: <CAEm6KbKQCk3d1fFkztKA=rnQMNzGJLaSjRidd56Q47s6M+j6Zg@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CANFTA08n_jk3jwrKKYPq+uqO4smTz=nwerez0VncWkSMtCG=hQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <562143D2.3050802@riseup.net>
 <CAEm6KbKQCk3d1fFkztKA=rnQMNzGJLaSjRidd56Q47s6M+j6Zg@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <56216123.6060408@riseup.net>

Sorry. I should know better than to 'feed the trolls'. I promise the
next (just sent) is going to be the last on the topic...

On 10/16/2015 12:06 PM, Александр wrote:
> Oh no, Razer... what have you done?
> ​
>  :)Now
> ​
> this troll starts again.
> And I just thought it was over after deleting dozens of his f*cken
> letters from my email.
>
> **

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From Rayzer at riseup.net  Fri Oct 16 13:57:21 2015
From: Rayzer at riseup.net (Razer)
Date: Fri, 16 Oct 2015 13:57:21 -0700
Subject: Truth teller or Truthiness?
In-Reply-To: <20151016122844.GB2703@sivokote.iziade.m$>
References: <E1ZmaCO-0006rz-Sz@elasmtp-galgo.atl.sa.earthlink.net>
 <1506f506070.276e.4d489027c0c4d0c1b1ca03a1f48f1ffb@misanthropia.org>
 <20151016072615.788D0C00016@frontend1.nyi.internal>
 <E1Zn2IY-0001BO-Ue@elasmtp-spurfowl.atl.sa.earthlink.net>
 <20151016122844.GB2703@sivokote.iziade.m$>
Message-ID: <562164B1.9070000@riseup.net>



On 10/16/2015 05:28 AM, Georgi Guninski wrote:
>
> AFAICT this is already generalized by the quote:
> "Trust no one"
>

The Rapper/Gangstas say "DTA"; Don't trust anyone.

It's how I manage to make it through the Viet War protest years as a
teen and 'young adult' without ending up in prison for something or other...

RR

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From Rayzer at riseup.net  Fri Oct 16 14:15:45 2015
From: Rayzer at riseup.net (Razer)
Date: Fri, 16 Oct 2015 14:15:45 -0700
Subject: Suggest High-Signal Crew Ditch This for Reddit
In-Reply-To: <1445023013.32260.36.camel@europa>
References: <1445023013.32260.36.camel@europa>
Message-ID: <56216901.2000700@riseup.net>

DUDE! The last post before this: "Cryptome currently betraying, well,
everybody" (submitted 23 hours ago by kryogeniks) was THREE MONTHS previous!

RR

On 10/16/2015 12:16 PM, Cathal Garvey wrote:
> Not gonna screed about this, anyone who feels about this shit like I do
> is probably going to get this already. CPunks is more noise than signal,
> even if the signal part is pretty good.
>
> Reddit is the only open source SocNet, and has topic-based enclosure (so
> no more firehose of stupidity on one's inbox) and downvoting to remove
> the idiocy if users set their clients to remove low-rated posts.
>
> I'm ditching this list, but see the higher-signal folks on Reddit at:
>
> reddit.com/r/crypto
> reddit.com/r/cypherpunks
> reddit.com/r/privacy
>
> Y'all can find me at /u/cathalgarvey if so inclined.
>
> It's been fun seeing people piss at one another about who's more native
> American, and who's a secret RU/GCHQ/NSA plant (hint: probably 80% of
> the active posters here).
>
> Peace out,
> Cathal
>
>


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From tbiehn at gmail.com  Fri Oct 16 11:16:11 2015
From: tbiehn at gmail.com (Travis Biehn)
Date: Fri, 16 Oct 2015 14:16:11 -0400
Subject: Neocities 'Security Statements'
Message-ID: <CAKtE3zd_GfcB68Xujfs=sgSm+QVn_k7onH6+hTvT0S5dkaJXtA@mail.gmail.com>

List;
Neocities is making a pretty bold statement on their website - it seems to
indicate that they are a safe haven from nation state attackers:

"We also provide Snowden-grade SSL cryptography on all sites, preventing
snoops from seeing what you browse."

Is that an implied 'Snowden approves' there?

These types of statements are fairly dangerous to any targeted groups. I
can't find any details to support that they have the sorts of properties
one would expect from a service resilient to those types of groups.

-Travis

-- 
Twitter <https://twitter.com/tbiehn> | LinkedIn
<http://www.linkedin.com/in/travisbiehn> | GitHub <http://github.com/tbiehn>
| TravisBiehn.com <http://www.travisbiehn.com> | Google Plus
<https://plus.google.com/+TravisBiehn>
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From tbiehn at gmail.com  Fri Oct 16 11:45:35 2015
From: tbiehn at gmail.com (Travis Biehn)
Date: Fri, 16 Oct 2015 14:45:35 -0400
Subject: Fwd: Ecartis command results: unsubscribe
In-Reply-To: <562143D2.3050802@riseup.net>
References: <CANFTA08n_jk3jwrKKYPq+uqO4smTz=nwerez0VncWkSMtCG=hQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <562143D2.3050802@riseup.net>
Message-ID: <CAKtE3zdSxjtX_zbcVxAbez9O2_byTPZGjo0cz1WOOvNvc_4m-A@mail.gmail.com>

I can *almost* guarantee that vulnerabilities which are not exploitable are
not exploited.

-Travis

On Fri, Oct 16, 2015 at 2:37 PM, Razer <Rayzer at riseup.net> wrote:

>
>
> On 10/16/2015 10:14 AM, Michael Best wrote:
> > A masterful troll spoiled by the standard protection against
> malicious/fake unsubscribe requests. Oh, if only I had accounted for it!
> > I received one too, and several times during the last few weeks I've
> gotten emails telling me that someone was trying to log into my freelists
> settings. I have no idea who it was, so I'm not going to accuse anyone
> without any evidence whatsoever.
> > Glad to see you're not jumping to conclusions, Occam's Rayzer. ;-)
> >
> >
>
>
> Your trolling the list with the basically useless information that JYA
> sold logs THAT HIS SITE OPERATION MAY NOT HAVE GENERATED (they may be
> netsol's right?) created a spike in the use of the word "Cryptome" etc
> on the radar of hackers and spammers, so yeah, you're responsible Mike.
>
> I can almost guarantee it wouldn't have happened without you.
>
> RR
>
>
> >     And there you have it... The end result of Mike Best's troll...
> >     Gleaned
> >     addresses being run through cryptome's listerver. The server admin
> >     could
> >     detail from which IP these requests originated. RR --------
> >     Forwarded Message --------
> >     Subject: Ecartis command results: unsubscribe
> >     Date: Fri, 16 Oct 2015 10:17:32 -0400 (EDT)
> >     From: FreeLists Mailing List Manager <ecartis at freelists.org
> >     <mailto:ecartis at freelists.org>>
> >     To: rayzer Request received for list 'cryptome' via request
> >     address. >>/unsubscribe /'Unsubscribe' request denied.
> >     Your request was rejected for the following reason: You are not on
> >     the list 'cryptome'.
> >
> >
>
>
>


-- 
Twitter <https://twitter.com/tbiehn> | LinkedIn
<http://www.linkedin.com/in/travisbiehn> | GitHub <http://github.com/tbiehn>
| TravisBiehn.com <http://www.travisbiehn.com> | Google Plus
<https://plus.google.com/+TravisBiehn>
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From themikebest at gmail.com  Fri Oct 16 11:47:11 2015
From: themikebest at gmail.com (Michael Best)
Date: Fri, 16 Oct 2015 14:47:11 -0400
Subject: Fwd: Ecartis command results: unsubscribe
Message-ID: <CANFTA0_rdORtSFUy574hiYAR+WEtOxH2jHM5VCVDdexdNf=bNg@mail.gmail.com>

1. If JYA had been willing to quietly verify that information in the first
place, I wouldn't've had to publish it. Instead, he lied and said I faked
the data.
2. I only brought it up because it was relevant to the GCHQ slide, which
John refused to comment on except to tell me in an email to keep going.
3. As John has said, '*What if we harm somebody' or all this kind of crap.
Which is strictly cowardice.*" When he didn't cooperate and then told me to
keep going, I took that as his blessing.
4. The majority of those extra posts about Cryptome or using the word
Cryptome didn't come from me, they came from people throwing accusations at
me and deflecting from the real point which was the fxcking GCHQ slide.
Because heaven forbid we talk about actual cypherpunk issues instead of
accusing someone who doesn't worship Snowden or JYA enough.
5. Do you extend this same "unintended consequences" for Snowden's leaks
when it comes to legitimate security issues, creating rifts between
governments, creating discord among the population, accusing encryption of
being the reason aliens haven't made contact, making it easier for FIS or
terrorist groups to evade surveillance that has the potential to stop
attacks against the critical infrastructure that John likes to take
pictures of and post?

I'm getting fed up with what feels like endless hypocrisy and personal
attacks over a situation that I didn't play the dominant role in creating -
JYA did. But I guess it's more fun to rabblerouse about shit and make
accusations


> Your trolling the list with the basically useless information that JYA
> sold logs THAT HIS SITE OPERATION MAY NOT HAVE GENERATED (they may be
> netsol's right?) created a spike in the use of the word "Cryptome" etc
> on the radar of hackers and spammers, so yeah, you're responsible Mike. I
> can almost guarantee it wouldn't have happened without you. RR
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From themikebest at gmail.com  Fri Oct 16 11:53:20 2015
From: themikebest at gmail.com (Michael Best)
Date: Fri, 16 Oct 2015 14:53:20 -0400
Subject: Ecartis command results: unsubscribe
In-Reply-To: <CANFTA0_rdORtSFUy574hiYAR+WEtOxH2jHM5VCVDdexdNf=bNg@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CANFTA0_rdORtSFUy574hiYAR+WEtOxH2jHM5VCVDdexdNf=bNg@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CANFTA09-j=fjrB7tXRvyLY=p3CgoTHrt8ks+7rHfeVxUknHc8Q@mail.gmail.com>

>
> Do you extend this same "unintended consequences" for Snowden's leaks when
> it comes to legitimate security issues, creating rifts between governments,
> creating discord among the population, accusing encryption of being the
> reason aliens haven't made contact, making it easier for FIS or terrorist
> groups to evade surveillance that has the potential to stop attacks against
> the critical infrastructure that John likes to take pictures of and post?


I take that part back, that's not a fair comparison. Snowden exposed
national security secrets including those necessary for cyber defense
(including preventative measures and identifying attacks before they
happen) of critical infrastructure i.e.  the energy grid, internet
backbone, potentially exposing assets and risk their lives etc and strain
diplomatic relations across the globe.

Whereas here, the consequences are you bitching and moaning about *not
being unsubscribed from a list*. Which is the "end result" of a troll,
somehow. Because spammers want to unsubscribe you from mailing lists. On
the plus side, I guess I won't hear from you anymore about this supposed
troll? .... I guess that's a fair deal.

On Fri, Oct 16, 2015 at 2:47 PM, Michael Best <themikebest at gmail.com> wrote:

> 1. If JYA had been willing to quietly verify that information in the first
> place, I wouldn't've had to publish it. Instead, he lied and said I faked
> the data.
> 2. I only brought it up because it was relevant to the GCHQ slide, which
> John refused to comment on except to tell me in an email to keep going.
> 3. As John has said, '*What if we harm somebody' or all this kind of
> crap. Which is strictly cowardice.*" When he didn't cooperate and then
> told me to keep going, I took that as his blessing.
> 4. The majority of those extra posts about Cryptome or using the word
> Cryptome didn't come from me, they came from people throwing accusations at
> me and deflecting from the real point which was the fxcking GCHQ slide.
> Because heaven forbid we talk about actual cypherpunk issues instead of
> accusing someone who doesn't worship Snowden or JYA enough.
> 5. Do you extend this same "unintended consequences" for Snowden's leaks
> when it comes to legitimate security issues, creating rifts between
> governments, creating discord among the population, accusing encryption of
> being the reason aliens haven't made contact, making it easier for FIS or
> terrorist groups to evade surveillance that has the potential to stop
> attacks against the critical infrastructure that John likes to take
> pictures of and post?
>
> I'm getting fed up with what feels like endless hypocrisy and personal
> attacks over a situation that I didn't play the dominant role in creating -
> JYA did. But I guess it's more fun to rabblerouse about shit and make
> accusations
>
>
>> Your trolling the list with the basically useless information that JYA
>> sold logs THAT HIS SITE OPERATION MAY NOT HAVE GENERATED (they may be
>> netsol's right?) created a spike in the use of the word "Cryptome" etc
>> on the radar of hackers and spammers, so yeah, you're responsible Mike. I
>> can almost guarantee it wouldn't have happened without you. RR
>
>
>
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From guninski at guninski.com  Fri Oct 16 05:28:44 2015
From: guninski at guninski.com (Georgi Guninski)
Date: Fri, 16 Oct 2015 15:28:44 +0300
Subject: Truth teller or Truthiness?
In-Reply-To: <E1Zn2IY-0001BO-Ue@elasmtp-spurfowl.atl.sa.earthlink.net>
References: <E1ZmaCO-0006rz-Sz@elasmtp-galgo.atl.sa.earthlink.net>
 <1506f506070.276e.4d489027c0c4d0c1b1ca03a1f48f1ffb@misanthropia.org>
 <20151016072615.788D0C00016@frontend1.nyi.internal>
 <E1Zn2IY-0001BO-Ue@elasmtp-spurfowl.atl.sa.earthlink.net>
Message-ID: <20151016122844.GB2703@sivokote.iziade.m$>

On Fri, Oct 16, 2015 at 06:33:26AM -0400, John Young wrote:
> WikiLeaks self-promotional honorifics are humorously manipulative
> like any other prize, award, condescending media campaign.
> 
> Indignant smears are beneficial: Don't trust Cryptome or John Young.
> 
>
AFAICT this is already generalized by the quote:
"Trust no one"





From drjfeinstein at mail.com  Fri Oct 16 06:57:53 2015
From: drjfeinstein at mail.com (Dr. J Feinstein)
Date: Fri, 16 Oct 2015 15:57:53 +0200
Subject: [cryptome] Re: Truth teller or Truthiness?
In-Reply-To: <20151016133547.8F5C2C0001F@frontend1.nyi.internal>
References: <E1ZmaCO-0006rz-Sz@elasmtp-galgo.atl.sa.earthlink.net>
 <1506f506070.276e.4d489027c0c4d0c1b1ca03a1f48f1ffb@misanthropia.org>
 <20151016072615.788D0C00016@frontend1.nyi.internal>
 <E1Zn2IY-0001BO-Ue@elasmtp-spurfowl.atl.sa.earthlink.net>,
 <20151016133547.8F5C2C0001F@frontend1.nyi.internal>
Message-ID: <trinity-3a7b7c55-4615-4f38-a2e0-48ad915456ab-1445003873121@3capp-mailcom-lxa05>

With truths like this who needs parody?

jf




From kanzure at gmail.com  Fri Oct 16 14:06:37 2015
From: kanzure at gmail.com (Bryan Bishop)
Date: Fri, 16 Oct 2015 16:06:37 -0500
Subject: Suggest High-Signal Crew Ditch This for Reddit
In-Reply-To: <1445023013.32260.36.camel@europa>
References: <1445023013.32260.36.camel@europa>
Message-ID: <CABaSBawcZZEzYTQgJyQxLHaSOvSt1CDPc6HTx584DauQQPefzA@mail.gmail.com>

On Fri, Oct 16, 2015 at 2:16 PM, Cathal Garvey
<cathalgarvey at cathalgarvey.me> wrote:
> is probably going to get this already. CPunks is more noise than signal,
> even if the signal part is pretty good.

Generally there is no formula for how to find or maintain high-signal.
Would be interesting to have some more formal definition around this
and then whether it actually applies to online communities. Next,
given that, you could maybe come up with an impossibility proof so
that we can stop wasting our time chasing the next greatest way to
rank terrible content.

I am reminded of this proposal for ranking and rating:
http://slashdot.org/comments.pl?sid=1234&cid=1699774

- Bryan
http://heybryan.org/
1 512 203 0507




From drjfeinstein at mail.com  Fri Oct 16 07:29:35 2015
From: drjfeinstein at mail.com (Dr. J Feinstein)
Date: Fri, 16 Oct 2015 16:29:35 +0200
Subject: 'unsub from cryptome ml'
Message-ID: <trinity-bd69bf8e-5cef-43c7-b46c-e319538123c3-1445005774581@3capp-mailcom-lxa05>

Same

jf

> >> unsubscribe
> 'Unsubscribe' request denied.
> Your request was rejected for the following reason:
> You are not on the list 'cryptome'.
> Shocker.
> -Travis




From guninski at guninski.com  Fri Oct 16 07:09:44 2015
From: guninski at guninski.com (Georgi Guninski)
Date: Fri, 16 Oct 2015 17:09:44 +0300
Subject: Future True [was: Re: Truth teller or Truthiness?]
In-Reply-To: <CAJVRA1Qt_MttECrnPZPGAmVKW_VS6_wmeGYDM6GD6Sk-FTZqVA@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAJVRA1Qt_MttECrnPZPGAmVKW_VS6_wmeGYDM6GD6Sk-FTZqVA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <20151016140944.GC2703@sivokote.iziade.m$>

On Fri, Oct 16, 2015 at 05:35:08AM -0700, coderman wrote:
> remember my dear earth humans:
>  adjust your receiver minds,

Dude, did you pass the Turing test? ;)

In case of positive answer did you cheat?




From jya at pipeline.com  Fri Oct 16 16:00:39 2015
From: jya at pipeline.com (John Young)
Date: Fri, 16 Oct 2015 19:00:39 -0400
Subject: Ecartis command results: unsubscribe
In-Reply-To: <CAOsGNSQDzAvAXgiA-J3j_OnH16ckNP5UQ4tsF11Rbk=u99RtCg@mail.g
 mail.com>
References: <CANFTA0_rdORtSFUy574hiYAR+WEtOxH2jHM5VCVDdexdNf=bNg@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAOsGNSQDzAvAXgiA-J3j_OnH16ckNP5UQ4tsF11Rbk=u99RtCg@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <E1ZnDxC-0004mx-RF@elasmtp-junco.atl.sa.earthlink.net>

If not distrusted, hated and vilified, try harder. This forum exists
for honing Machiavellian malevolency. If praise, trust and fruitful
discussion is desired (as once available in higher ed of Readers
Digest Life in These United States, but no more), SEO elsewhere,
then when abused, misled, cold-cocked, rejected and dispirited
by bullying intolerance, sneak back under newly minted nym, try
even harder to piss on Hettinga's celebrity high-stepping patent
leather Keds.





From themikebest at gmail.com  Fri Oct 16 16:13:05 2015
From: themikebest at gmail.com (Michael Best)
Date: Fri, 16 Oct 2015 19:13:05 -0400
Subject: Ecartis command results: unsubscribe
Message-ID: <CANFTA0-tjpG+sF8TGooKhJXGjViPkjBT_fP=8NyAqTDGFoRVBg@mail.gmail.com>

>
> This forum exists for honing Machiavellian malevolency.


If only. All I've seen are amateurish insults and baseless accusations. If
anyone here had enough sense to be Machiavellian about coming after me or
my data, then I wouldn't be half as frustrated with some of the behavior on
this list.

Not even any Machiavelli wannabes, just children throwing tantrums when
their beliefs or idols are challenged.
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From cathalgarvey at cathalgarvey.me  Fri Oct 16 12:16:53 2015
From: cathalgarvey at cathalgarvey.me (Cathal Garvey)
Date: Fri, 16 Oct 2015 20:16:53 +0100
Subject: Suggest High-Signal Crew Ditch This for Reddit
Message-ID: <1445023013.32260.36.camel@europa>

Not gonna screed about this, anyone who feels about this shit like I do
is probably going to get this already. CPunks is more noise than signal,
even if the signal part is pretty good.

Reddit is the only open source SocNet, and has topic-based enclosure (so
no more firehose of stupidity on one's inbox) and downvoting to remove
the idiocy if users set their clients to remove low-rated posts.

I'm ditching this list, but see the higher-signal folks on Reddit at:

reddit.com/r/crypto
reddit.com/r/cypherpunks
reddit.com/r/privacy

Y'all can find me at /u/cathalgarvey if so inclined.

It's been fun seeing people piss at one another about who's more native
American, and who's a secret RU/GCHQ/NSA plant (hint: probably 80% of
the active posters here).

Peace out,
Cathal




From marksteward at gmail.com  Fri Oct 16 12:31:35 2015
From: marksteward at gmail.com (Mark Steward)
Date: Fri, 16 Oct 2015 20:31:35 +0100
Subject: Suggest High-Signal Crew Ditch This for Reddit
In-Reply-To: <1445023013.32260.36.camel@europa>
References: <1445023013.32260.36.camel@europa>
Message-ID: <CAPyX2nd7-AYfQfxOufDiW1h2VZ37hHy0hrVfHDkAWB=D25=JMQ@mail.gmail.com>

On 16 Oct 2015 20:24, "Cathal Garvey" <cathalgarvey at cathalgarvey.me> wrote:
>
...
> It's been fun seeing people piss at one another about who's more native
> American, and who's a secret RU/GCHQ/NSA plant (hint: probably 80% of
> the active posters here).

Crafty. That's just doomed the next 6 months of posts on this list to
trying to work out who's on whose side.

Thanks for attempting to encourage the occasional ray of rational
discussion over the last few years.

Mark
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From oshwm at openmailbox.org  Fri Oct 16 13:13:48 2015
From: oshwm at openmailbox.org (oshwm)
Date: Fri, 16 Oct 2015 21:13:48 +0100
Subject: Suggest High-Signal Crew Ditch This for Reddit
In-Reply-To: <CAGRDzQULbuMPnUzzjXJoh5SeKS7ZmRnp0W7f=SurC-7maE5mYw@mail.gmail.com>
References: <1445023013.32260.36.camel@europa>
 <CAPyX2nd7-AYfQfxOufDiW1h2VZ37hHy0hrVfHDkAWB=D25=JMQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAGRDzQULbuMPnUzzjXJoh5SeKS7ZmRnp0W7f=SurC-7maE5mYw@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <56215A7C.4010105@openmailbox.org>

Sure, use Reddit if Censorship is your thing...

"When failed discrimination plaintiff Ellen Pao was appointed CEO of
Reddit last January, many predicted that it would herald a new age of
censorship on the link-sharing and discussion site. Those predictions
appear to have come true, as a number of communities on the site (known
as “subreddits”) have just been unilaterally shut down."

Full article:-

http://www.itworld.com/article/2934436/open-source-tools/reddit-censorship-results-in-mass-exodus-to-voatco.html




On 16/10/15 20:42, Cari Machet wrote:
> aaron sw hated reddit
> 
> On Fri, Oct 16, 2015 at 10:31 PM, Mark Steward <marksteward at gmail.com>
> wrote:
> 
>> On 16 Oct 2015 20:24, "Cathal Garvey" <cathalgarvey at cathalgarvey.me>
>> wrote:
>>>
>> ...
>>> It's been fun seeing people piss at one another about who's more native
>>> American, and who's a secret RU/GCHQ/NSA plant (hint: probably 80% of
>>> the active posters here).
>>
>> Crafty. That's just doomed the next 6 months of posts on this list to
>> trying to work out who's on whose side.
>>
>> Thanks for attempting to encourage the occasional ray of rational
>> discussion over the last few years.
>>
>> Mark
>>
> 
> 
> 

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From afalex169 at gmail.com  Fri Oct 16 11:45:53 2015
From: afalex169 at gmail.com (=?UTF-8?B?INCQ0LvQtdC60YHQsNC90LTRgCA=?=)
Date: Fri, 16 Oct 2015 21:45:53 +0300
Subject: Fwd: Ecartis command results: unsubscribe
In-Reply-To: <562143D2.3050802@riseup.net>
References: <CANFTA08n_jk3jwrKKYPq+uqO4smTz=nwerez0VncWkSMtCG=hQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <562143D2.3050802@riseup.net>
Message-ID: <CAEm6Kb+sOVd42sqTXU5vNWgxG-s_a=pBAg40EwmAFkL0-2f9Ng@mail.gmail.com>

*+1!*
>
> Your trolling the list with the basically useless information that JYA
> sold logs THAT HIS SITE OPERATION MAY NOT HAVE GENERATED (they may be
> netsol's right?) created a spike in the use of the word "Cryptome" etc
> on the radar of hackers and spammers, so yeah, you're responsible Mike.
>
> I can almost guarantee it wouldn't have happened without you.
>
> RR
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From zen at freedbms.net  Fri Oct 16 15:01:03 2015
From: zen at freedbms.net (Zenaan Harkness)
Date: Fri, 16 Oct 2015 22:01:03 +0000
Subject: Ecartis command results: unsubscribe
In-Reply-To: <CANFTA0_rdORtSFUy574hiYAR+WEtOxH2jHM5VCVDdexdNf=bNg@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CANFTA0_rdORtSFUy574hiYAR+WEtOxH2jHM5VCVDdexdNf=bNg@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAOsGNSQDzAvAXgiA-J3j_OnH16ckNP5UQ4tsF11Rbk=u99RtCg@mail.gmail.com>

On 10/16/15, Michael Best <themikebest at gmail.com> wrote:
> 1. If JYA had been willing to quietly verify that information in the first
> place, I wouldn't've had to publish it. Instead, he lied and said I faked
> the data.

Or, at least -someone- faked the data - he made have made an
assumption. Or his site was hacked at one brief point. Or it's
irrelevant in the face of the arrangement he has for the cryptome
server anyway - he might not control the actual/ relevant logs.

Or you really did fake the data. :D

To assume, to assume, makes an ass of u and me.


> 2. I only brought it up because it was relevant to the GCHQ slide, which
> John refused to comment on except to tell me in an email to keep going.

Good advice. If there's an issue of any sort, it's good that someone
looks into it to the best of their ability. Encouraging individuals to
pursue grievances, or at least perceptions of, is adjectively noun. If
you have nothing substantial, you have to keep going till you do, or
you give up, or you realise people are looking at you strange and
wondering whether you trolled them.


> 3. As John has said, '*What if we harm somebody' or all this kind of crap.
> Which is strictly cowardice.*" When he didn't cooperate and then told me to
> keep going, I took that as his blessing.

Sure. One can imagine you still have his blessing. You still have
mine, and that's one very expensive very shiny blessing, which you may
continue to use until I say otherwise.


> 4. The majority of those extra posts about Cryptome or using the word
> Cryptome didn't come from me,

Just as well or your new feather would not be so big and imporessive.

> they came from people throwing accusations at
> me

The perfect cover for an artful troll. Did you thank them?

> and deflecting from the real point which was the fxcking GCHQ slide.

I've seen slides fade, swipe, slide, rotate and pop, but never fxck.

> Because heaven forbid we talk about actual cypherpunk issues

You must be new around here...

> instead of
> accusing someone who doesn't worship Snowden or JYA enough.

You have everyone's blessing. Well, at least JYA's - mine might be
fake gold coat though, so not really expensive, but a blessing
nonetheless.

I'm not totally unfamiliar with getting caught up in insecurity for
insignificance perception causes.


> 5. Do you extend this same "unintended consequences" for Snowden's leaks
> when it comes to legitimate security issues, creating rifts between
> governments, creating discord among the population, accusing encryption of
> being the reason aliens haven't made contact,

A, penetrating, insight that one.


> making it easier for FIS or
> terrorist groups to evade surveillance that has the potential to stop
> attacks against the critical infrastructure that John likes to take
> pictures of and post?

Of course. Not. Or yes. Or I'm lost in the double negative.


> I'm getting fed up with what feels like endless hypocrisy and personal
> attacks over a situation that I didn't play the dominant role in creating -
> JYA did. But I guess it's more fun to rabblerouse about shit and make
> accusations

First rule of punk - be the fool, NEVER take it personally. I have and
continue to struggle with that one sometimes, but it's a good lesson
if you can get it on board. Hell of a good lesson. Makes those alien
probes go much smoother.


>> Your trolling the list with the basically useless information that JYA
>> sold logs THAT HIS SITE OPERATION MAY NOT HAVE GENERATED (they may be
>> netsol's right?) created a spike in the use of the word "Cryptome" etc
>> on the radar of hackers and spammers, so yeah, you're responsible Mike. I
>> can almost guarantee it wouldn't have happened without you. RR

See Michael, this is simply the best, that moment where you race
around the yard catch the best chicken yank the best feather out and
stick it to the list, or your best hat, and promptly seize this fine
moment as you slowly nod your head, raise a smile and say "yeahhhh ...
I trolled cypherpunks; dude!"

Pretty good effort when all you had was good intention. And now it's
all been fully deconstructed by half a dozen people over a week. Hard
to achieve that in a real bar.

Peace,
Z




From oshwm at openmailbox.org  Fri Oct 16 14:25:12 2015
From: oshwm at openmailbox.org (oshwm)
Date: Fri, 16 Oct 2015 22:25:12 +0100
Subject: Suggest High-Signal Crew Ditch This for Reddit
In-Reply-To: <56216901.2000700@riseup.net>
References: <1445023013.32260.36.camel@europa> <56216901.2000700@riseup.net>
Message-ID: <56216B38.5090705@openmailbox.org>

So that's how quiet things get when you drop the noise :D

On 16/10/15 22:15, Razer wrote:
> DUDE! The last post before this: "Cryptome currently betraying, well,
> everybody" (submitted 23 hours ago by kryogeniks) was THREE MONTHS previous!
> 
> RR
> 
> On 10/16/2015 12:16 PM, Cathal Garvey wrote:
>> Not gonna screed about this, anyone who feels about this shit like I do
>> is probably going to get this already. CPunks is more noise than signal,
>> even if the signal part is pretty good.
>>
>> Reddit is the only open source SocNet, and has topic-based enclosure (so
>> no more firehose of stupidity on one's inbox) and downvoting to remove
>> the idiocy if users set their clients to remove low-rated posts.
>>
>> I'm ditching this list, but see the higher-signal folks on Reddit at:
>>
>> reddit.com/r/crypto
>> reddit.com/r/cypherpunks
>> reddit.com/r/privacy
>>
>> Y'all can find me at /u/cathalgarvey if so inclined.
>>
>> It's been fun seeing people piss at one another about who's more native
>> American, and who's a secret RU/GCHQ/NSA plant (hint: probably 80% of
>> the active posters here).
>>
>> Peace out,
>> Cathal
>>
>>
> 
> 

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From carimachet at gmail.com  Fri Oct 16 12:42:15 2015
From: carimachet at gmail.com (Cari Machet)
Date: Fri, 16 Oct 2015 22:42:15 +0300
Subject: Suggest High-Signal Crew Ditch This for Reddit
In-Reply-To: <CAPyX2nd7-AYfQfxOufDiW1h2VZ37hHy0hrVfHDkAWB=D25=JMQ@mail.gmail.com>
References: <1445023013.32260.36.camel@europa>
 <CAPyX2nd7-AYfQfxOufDiW1h2VZ37hHy0hrVfHDkAWB=D25=JMQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAGRDzQULbuMPnUzzjXJoh5SeKS7ZmRnp0W7f=SurC-7maE5mYw@mail.gmail.com>

aaron sw hated reddit

On Fri, Oct 16, 2015 at 10:31 PM, Mark Steward <marksteward at gmail.com>
wrote:

> On 16 Oct 2015 20:24, "Cathal Garvey" <cathalgarvey at cathalgarvey.me>
> wrote:
> >
> ...
> > It's been fun seeing people piss at one another about who's more native
> > American, and who's a secret RU/GCHQ/NSA plant (hint: probably 80% of
> > the active posters here).
>
> Crafty. That's just doomed the next 6 months of posts on this list to
> trying to work out who's on whose side.
>
> Thanks for attempting to encourage the occasional ray of rational
> discussion over the last few years.
>
> Mark
>



-- 
Cari Machet
NYC 646-436-7795
carimachet at gmail.com
AIM carismachet
Syria +963-099 277 3243
Amman +962 077 636 9407
Berlin +49 152 11779219
Reykjavik +354 894 8650
Twitter: @carimachet <https://twitter.com/carimachet>

7035 690E 5E47 41D4 B0E5 B3D1 AF90 49D6 BE09 2187

Ruh-roh, this is now necessary: This email is intended only for the
addressee(s) and may contain confidential information. If you are not the
intended recipient, you are hereby notified that any use of this
information, dissemination, distribution, or copying of this email without
permission is strictly prohibited.
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From themikebest at gmail.com  Fri Oct 16 19:48:52 2015
From: themikebest at gmail.com (Michael Best)
Date: Fri, 16 Oct 2015 22:48:52 -0400
Subject: Any "greatest generation" cypherpunks in the OSS?
Message-ID: <CANFTA08SCGg6tn72SDxieBTd+fX_icwOLJ3KKmSGLZT-7ykEsQ@mail.gmail.com>

If anyone knows anything about, or can recommend any sources on, the
cypherpunk equivalents (and related missions) in the Office of Strategic
Services (OSS - the WW2 predecessor to CIG which basically became CIA in
'47) please let me know.

To be relevant to my research, it needs to be OSS related. Venona, Enigma
et al are interesting and historically relevant, but right now my focus is
limited to OSS.

So far, the most interesting thing I've come across is the Tizard Mission
by Stephen Phelps... unfortunately for me, it's more Britain and navy
oriented than OSS, and the surveillance issues are more aerial/naval than
cypherpunk-y. Since it's interesting nonetheless, I figured I'd share the
link and summary along with my request for help.

http://www.amazon.com/The-Tizard-Mission-Top-Secret-Operation/dp/159416116X

Unknown to the rest of the world, Britain’s brightest scientific and
> military minds had been working on futuristic technology for a decade,
> including radar and jet propulsion. While the great value of radar to
> locate and identify objects at long distance and at night or in bad weather
> was appreciated, at the time it was thought that practical radar required a
> room-sized device for generating an effective signal. Now, suddenly,
> British scientists had something extraordinary—the cavity magnetron, a
> generator hundreds of times more powerful than any other in use and small
> enough to be held in the hand. With the British economy and industry
> reeling from the war, Winston Churchill gambled on an unorthodox plan: a
> team of scientists and engineers would travel under cover to the United
> States and give the still-neutral Americans the best of Britain’s military
> secrets. It was hoped that in exchange the United States would provide
> financial and manufacturing support—which might even lead to their official
> entry into the war.
>
>      The Tizard Mission, named for its leader Sir Henry Tizard, steamed
> across the Atlantic carrying a suitcase-sized metal deed box. Designed to
> sink in the event the ship was torpedoed by a U-boat, the box contained
> details of the Whittle jet engine, research for an atomic bomb, and a
> precious cavity magnetron. The Americans proved to be astonished,
> receptive, and efficient: Bell Telephone produced the first thirty
> magnetrons in October 1940, and over a million by the end of the war. With
> this device, both warships and aircraft could carry war-winning radar. But
> Britain did not only give America military secrets, these same technologies
> would produce a fortune for postwar commercial industries, with the
> magnetron being the key component to the microwave oven. In *The Tizard
> Mission: The Top-Secret Operation That Changed the Course of World War II*,
> Stephen Phelps reveals how the Tizard Mission was the turning point in the
> technological war, giving Britain the weapons it desperately needed and
> laying the groundwork for both the Special Relationship and much of the
> United States’s postwar economic boom, an effect that still resonates today.
>
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From juan.g71 at gmail.com  Fri Oct 16 21:36:34 2015
From: juan.g71 at gmail.com (Juan)
Date: Sat, 17 Oct 2015 01:36:34 -0300
Subject: Ecartis command results: unsubscribe
In-Reply-To: <CANFTA09-j=fjrB7tXRvyLY=p3CgoTHrt8ks+7rHfeVxUknHc8Q@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CANFTA0_rdORtSFUy574hiYAR+WEtOxH2jHM5VCVDdexdNf=bNg@mail.gmail.com>
 <CANFTA09-j=fjrB7tXRvyLY=p3CgoTHrt8ks+7rHfeVxUknHc8Q@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <5621ceea.4a30370a.411d9.4d00@mx.google.com>

On Fri, 16 Oct 2015 14:53:20 -0400
Michael Best <themikebest at gmail.com> wrote:


> I take that part back, that's not a fair comparison. Snowden exposed
> national security secrets including those necessary for cyber defense
> (including preventative measures and identifying attacks before they
> happen) of critical infrastructure i.e.  the energy grid, internet
> backbone, potentially exposing assets and risk their lives etc and
> strain diplomatic relations across the globe.



	so 'best' what does an americunt, worthless piece of shit like
	you do in an allegedly 'cypherpunk' mailing list? 

	Apart from, obviously, trolling. 

	go ahead, said something meaningful for a change. 









From juan.g71 at gmail.com  Fri Oct 16 21:38:43 2015
From: juan.g71 at gmail.com (Juan)
Date: Sat, 17 Oct 2015 01:38:43 -0300
Subject: Suggest High-Signal Crew Ditch This for Reddit
In-Reply-To: <1445023013.32260.36.camel@europa>
References: <1445023013.32260.36.camel@europa>
Message-ID: <5621cf6a.11c8370a.d0dd5.ffffd46e@mx.google.com>

On Fri, 16 Oct 2015 20:16:53 +0100
Cathal Garvey <cathalgarvey at cathalgarvey.me> wrote:

CPunks is more noise than
> signal, even if the signal part is pretty good.

	yep. and noise comes from fucking idiots like you


> 
> Reddit is the only open source SocNet, 

	priceless.


> 
> I'm ditching this list, 


	good ridance






From wirelesswarrior at safe-mail.net  Fri Oct 16 23:59:57 2015
From: wirelesswarrior at safe-mail.net (wirelesswarrior at safe-mail.net)
Date: Sat, 17 Oct 2015 02:59:57 -0400
Subject: Nominee officers and directors (was: Why cryptome sold weblogs...)
Message-ID: <N1B-of1sDpMPuM@Safe-mail.net>

See that's the thing, John. Cypherpunks would not operate such a site with any court having "effective" jurisdiction.

-------- Original Message --------
From: grarpamp <grarpamp at gmail.com>
Apparently from: cypherpunks-bounces at cpunks.org
To: John Young <jya at pipeline.com>
Cc: cypherpunks at cpunks.org
Subject: Re: Nominee officers and directors (was: Why cryptome sold weblogs...)
Date: Thu, 15 Oct 2015 18:20:18 -0400

> On Sun, Oct 11, 2015 at 8:06 PM, John Young <jya at pipeline.com> wrote:
> > Documents are removed from this site only by order
> > served directly by a US court having jurisdiction.
> 
> Belief is that some docs (particularly those in the junk / history category)
> have been removed without such order, instead of left for audience review.
> References elude, diff the great archives to find.




From wirelesswarrior at safe-mail.net  Sat Oct 17 00:02:20 2015
From: wirelesswarrior at safe-mail.net (wirelesswarrior at safe-mail.net)
Date: Sat, 17 Oct 2015 03:02:20 -0400
Subject: How To Survive The "Deep State"
Message-ID: <N1B-UNcWgPfXjI@Safe-mail.net>

"Almost everyone looks for a political solution to problems. However, once a Deep State situation has taken over, only a revolution or a dictatorship can turn it around, and probably only in a small country.

"Here’s what would happen in the totally impossible scenario that this person was elected and tried to act like a Lee Kuan Yew or an Augusto Pinochet against the Deep State:"

http://www.zerohedge.com/news/2015-10-16/how-survive-deep-state




From list at sysfu.com  Sat Oct 17 07:59:12 2015
From: list at sysfu.com (Seth)
Date: Sat, 17 Oct 2015 07:59:12 -0700
Subject: How To Survive The "Deep State"
In-Reply-To: <CAOsGNSRv-r_vmdS9PAS0gwLDfR0N3MgHrN4VJrS=ANbNUzaSSA@mail.gmail.com>
References: <N1B-UNcWgPfXjI@Safe-mail.net>
 <CAOsGNSRyYUDJJTk3kJfxTxJ4F+27TDBf40ATpAuXhpKstLf_ug@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAOsGNSRv-r_vmdS9PAS0gwLDfR0N3MgHrN4VJrS=ANbNUzaSSA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <op.x6nnwy17bgbjo9@mm.local>

On Sat, 17 Oct 2015 06:15:16 -0700, Zenaan Harkness <zen at freedbms.net>
wrote:

> Fri, 10/16/2015 - 22:58 | 6678042 Implied Violins
> Easy: bust the child-porn rings.
> ALL OF THEM. The rest will follow.
> "
>
> May be the real reason why publishing the crime of beheadings and
> other gore is legal, but publishing this crime is illegal - minimize
> the risk to the "elite" ('must not have any pesky vigilantes to stop
> all the cover ups/ hush ups/ do nothing royal enquiries')?

Yup, more info on congressional child rapists and other criminal acts and
collusion here
https://www.corbettreport.com/the-real-hastert-scandal-pedophilia-drug-money-and-blackmail/

Forget about Jim Bell's Assassination Politics, what we need now more than
ever is "Castration Politics" where darknet bounties for the genitals of
these sociopathic child rapists are raised and then harvested by snatch
'n' snip teams.




From list at sysfu.com  Sat Oct 17 08:16:04 2015
From: list at sysfu.com (Seth)
Date: Sat, 17 Oct 2015 08:16:04 -0700
Subject: How To Survive The "Deep State"
In-Reply-To: <CAOsGNSRv-r_vmdS9PAS0gwLDfR0N3MgHrN4VJrS=ANbNUzaSSA@mail.gmail.com>
References: <N1B-UNcWgPfXjI@Safe-mail.net>
 <CAOsGNSRyYUDJJTk3kJfxTxJ4F+27TDBf40ATpAuXhpKstLf_ug@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAOsGNSRv-r_vmdS9PAS0gwLDfR0N3MgHrN4VJrS=ANbNUzaSSA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <op.x6noo2azbgbjo9@mm.local>

On Sat, 17 Oct 2015 06:15:16 -0700, Zenaan Harkness <zen at freedbms.net>
wrote:

> Fri, 10/16/2015 - 22:58 | 6678042 Implied Violins
> Easy: bust the child-porn rings.
> ALL OF THEM. The rest will follow.
> "
>
> May be the real reason why publishing the crime of beheadings and
> other gore is legal, but publishing this crime is illegal - minimize
> the risk to the "elite" ('must not have any pesky vigilantes to stop
> all the cover ups/ hush ups/ do nothing royal enquiries')?

Yup, more info on U.S. congressional child rapists and other criminal acts  
and
collusion here
https://www.corbettreport.com/the-real-hastert-scandal-pedophilia-drug-money-and-blackmail/

Latest update: The U.S. District Judge on this case, a piece of shit fuck  
known as 'Thomas M. Durkin' colluded with the prosecution and defense to  
keep details of Hastert's crimes sealed via a plea bargain deal.

BTW, Durkin gave to Hastert's campaign and before he became a judge he  
worked in private practice with Hastert’s son, Ethan. No conflict of  
interested there.

Amazingly, Durkin offered to recuse himself from the case but as you would  
expect both the prosecution and the defense said 'no'.

Forget about Jim Bell's Assassination Politics, what we need now more than
ever is "Castration Politics", where Darknet bounties for the genitals of
these sociopathic child rapists and their protectors are raised and then  
'harvested' by snatch
'n' snip teams.




From carimachet at gmail.com  Fri Oct 16 23:04:31 2015
From: carimachet at gmail.com (Cari Machet)
Date: Sat, 17 Oct 2015 09:04:31 +0300
Subject: Suggest High-Signal Crew Ditch This for Reddit
In-Reply-To: <5621cf6a.11c8370a.d0dd5.ffffd46e@mx.google.com>
References: <1445023013.32260.36.camel@europa>
 <5621cf6a.11c8370a.d0dd5.ffffd46e@mx.google.com>
Message-ID: <CAGRDzQV5AtFGEeYkXjP2WfsEqd-Zho3uA0=npQfcKfP7QiHrfA@mail.gmail.com>

CLASS WARFARE ON CYPHERPUNKS = HIGH SIGNAL?

anyone worth a grain of salt knows there is no high and low

On Sat, Oct 17, 2015 at 7:38 AM, Juan <juan.g71 at gmail.com> wrote:

> On Fri, 16 Oct 2015 20:16:53 +0100
> Cathal Garvey <cathalgarvey at cathalgarvey.me> wrote:
>
> CPunks is more noise than
> > signal, even if the signal part is pretty good.
>
>         yep. and noise comes from fucking idiots like you
>
>
> >
> > Reddit is the only open source SocNet,
>
>         priceless.
>
>
> >
> > I'm ditching this list,
>
>
>         good ridance
>
>
>
>


-- 
Cari Machet
NYC 646-436-7795
carimachet at gmail.com
AIM carismachet
Syria +963-099 277 3243
Amman +962 077 636 9407
Berlin +49 152 11779219
Reykjavik +354 894 8650
Twitter: @carimachet <https://twitter.com/carimachet>

7035 690E 5E47 41D4 B0E5 B3D1 AF90 49D6 BE09 2187

Ruh-roh, this is now necessary: This email is intended only for the
addressee(s) and may contain confidential information. If you are not the
intended recipient, you are hereby notified that any use of this
information, dissemination, distribution, or copying of this email without
permission is strictly prohibited.
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From jya at pipeline.com  Sat Oct 17 06:16:04 2015
From: jya at pipeline.com (John Young)
Date: Sat, 17 Oct 2015 09:16:04 -0400
Subject: [cryptome] Re: Cryptome Mail List Messing
In-Reply-To: <CAB-1hLWJvtq9iF57v9oHMPMKReaY+W7m2_4Oz9=zbn9h3oxr+A@mail.g
 mail.com>
References: <E1ZnEET-0008BB-DV@elasmtp-dupuy.atl.sa.earthlink.net>
 <CAB-1hLWJvtq9iF57v9oHMPMKReaY+W7m2_4Oz9=zbn9h3oxr+A@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <E1ZnRJ6-00035l-CV@elasmtp-junco.atl.sa.earthlink.net>

Related to, coordinated with, Wikipedia's recently revised Cryptome 
entry to favor biased and erroneous items in a aggressive Cryptome 
attack sanctioned by the site editors.

https://cryptome.org/wikipedia-cryptome-bias-15-1017-0642.pdf


At 08:19 AM 10/17/2015, you wrote:

>you should publicly announce ypur suspicions. the Streisand effect 
>make take effect
>On Oct 16, 2015 4:16 PM, "John Young" 
><<mailto:jya at pipeline.com>jya at pipeline.com> wrote:
>Somebody is attempting to take over, mess with or take down
>the mail list. Remain amused if weirdness appears in your box.
>
>Suspect(s) has been logged by Freelists host.
>
>This is not from a suspect but might be similar.
>
>
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From Rayzer at riseup.net  Sat Oct 17 09:37:06 2015
From: Rayzer at riseup.net (Razer)
Date: Sat, 17 Oct 2015 09:37:06 -0700
Subject: Ecartis command results: unsubscribe
In-Reply-To: <CANFTA0-tjpG+sF8TGooKhJXGjViPkjBT_fP=8NyAqTDGFoRVBg@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CANFTA0-tjpG+sF8TGooKhJXGjViPkjBT_fP=8NyAqTDGFoRVBg@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <56227932.6080804@riseup.net>

On 10/16/2015 04:13 PM, Michael Best wrote:
>
> If only. All I've seen are amateurish insults and baseless accusations.


My accusations aren't 'baseless'. Your accusation that my accusations
are baseless is baseless, and, as a troll would do, baiting.  I've been
using the internet since Fido/FTP/BBS/Pre-WWW days (probably before you
were born) and I've SEEN your style of troll before. It's quite common
on political lists. You aren't 'special'.

RR


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From Rayzer at riseup.net  Sat Oct 17 11:25:34 2015
From: Rayzer at riseup.net (Razer)
Date: Sat, 17 Oct 2015 11:25:34 -0700
Subject: How To Survive The "Deep State"
In-Reply-To: <CAOsGNSRv-r_vmdS9PAS0gwLDfR0N3MgHrN4VJrS=ANbNUzaSSA@mail.gmail.com>
References: <N1B-UNcWgPfXjI@Safe-mail.net>
 <CAOsGNSRyYUDJJTk3kJfxTxJ4F+27TDBf40ATpAuXhpKstLf_ug@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAOsGNSRv-r_vmdS9PAS0gwLDfR0N3MgHrN4VJrS=ANbNUzaSSA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <5622929E.9030101@riseup.net>



On 10/17/2015 06:15 AM, Zenaan Harkness quoted a commenter @ZeroHedge:
> "Fuck how to "survive" the deep state! Tell me how to destroy the motherfucker!

Be a cancer in it's organism... You won't be if you invest in the stock
market according to Lehman Bros, or Zero Hedge, or for that matter
Cruise Missile Marxist Doug Henwood of Left Business Observer/[LBO-Talk]
list.

Just a note that ZH, and almost ANY financial interest site is NOT a
revolutionary site, and ZH is QUITE right wing libertarian.

I doubt I'd like the solution the commenter above had in mind after the
Deep State's destruction.

RR

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From Rayzer at riseup.net  Sat Oct 17 11:31:50 2015
From: Rayzer at riseup.net (Razer)
Date: Sat, 17 Oct 2015 11:31:50 -0700
Subject: How To Survive The "Deep State"
In-Reply-To: <562287E0.5000806@pilobilus.net>
References: <N1B-UNcWgPfXjI@Safe-mail.net>
 <CAOsGNSRyYUDJJTk3kJfxTxJ4F+27TDBf40ATpAuXhpKstLf_ug@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAOsGNSRv-r_vmdS9PAS0gwLDfR0N3MgHrN4VJrS=ANbNUzaSSA@mail.gmail.com>
 <562287E0.5000806@pilobilus.net>
Message-ID: <56229416.4010503@riseup.net>



On 10/17/2015 10:39 AM, Steve Kinney wrote:
> I don't expect a world that anyone will ever call "the Good Old Days" to appear before about 2150 at the soonest.

About the time Iran's geologists predict their petroleum peak, China's
citizens are calculated to be able to per-capita drive cars like
Mericans, meaning (according to a Harpers Index from a decade ago BEFORE
the oilcos downsized their reserves) that the known oil on the planet
will last 5 whole days,  and industrial world goes catatonic.

No. too soon... Try the 22nd century if there's still humans on the planet.

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From Rayzer at riseup.net  Sat Oct 17 11:34:56 2015
From: Rayzer at riseup.net (Razer)
Date: Sat, 17 Oct 2015 11:34:56 -0700
Subject: How To Survive The "Deep State"
In-Reply-To: <562287E0.5000806@pilobilus.net>
References: <N1B-UNcWgPfXjI@Safe-mail.net>
 <CAOsGNSRyYUDJJTk3kJfxTxJ4F+27TDBf40ATpAuXhpKstLf_ug@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAOsGNSRv-r_vmdS9PAS0gwLDfR0N3MgHrN4VJrS=ANbNUzaSSA@mail.gmail.com>
 <562287E0.5000806@pilobilus.net>
Message-ID: <562294D0.4080307@riseup.net>



On 10/17/2015 10:39 AM, Steve Kinney wrote:
>  I don't expect a world that anyone will ever
> call "the Good Old Days" to appear before about 2150 at the soonest.
>
> :o)
>

Sorry... I thought it was *2050*. We're on the same timeline..,,



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From zen at freedbms.net  Sat Oct 17 06:04:48 2015
From: zen at freedbms.net (Zenaan Harkness)
Date: Sat, 17 Oct 2015 13:04:48 +0000
Subject: How To Survive The "Deep State"
In-Reply-To: <N1B-UNcWgPfXjI@Safe-mail.net>
References: <N1B-UNcWgPfXjI@Safe-mail.net>
Message-ID: <CAOsGNSRyYUDJJTk3kJfxTxJ4F+27TDBf40ATpAuXhpKstLf_ug@mail.gmail.com>

On 10/17/15, wirelesswarrior at safe-mail.net
<wirelesswarrior at safe-mail.net> wrote:
> "Almost everyone looks for a political solution to problems. However, once a
> Deep State situation has taken over, only a revolution or a dictatorship can
> turn it around, and probably only in a small country.
>
> "Here’s what would happen in the totally impossible scenario that this
> person was elected and tried to act like a Lee Kuan Yew or an Augusto
> Pinochet against the Deep State:"
>
> http://www.zerohedge.com/news/2015-10-16/how-survive-deep-state

Thanks for the heads up - the last time you posted part 1, I found it
too depressing to go very far and it was all "yeah, of course" for
me...

This time, well it's good to be reminded, as well as read some new
ways to view aspects of the world which may beg for comprehension
otherwise, eg:
"Stupidity is an unwitting tendency towards self-destruction. It’s why
operations run by bad people always go bad. And why, since the Deep
State is run by bad people - sociopaths are actively drawn to it - it
will necessarily collapse."

Anyway, today these two articles kept me reading to the end,
Thanks.




From zen at freedbms.net  Sat Oct 17 06:15:16 2015
From: zen at freedbms.net (Zenaan Harkness)
Date: Sat, 17 Oct 2015 13:15:16 +0000
Subject: How To Survive The "Deep State"
In-Reply-To: <CAOsGNSRyYUDJJTk3kJfxTxJ4F+27TDBf40ATpAuXhpKstLf_ug@mail.gmail.com>
References: <N1B-UNcWgPfXjI@Safe-mail.net>
 <CAOsGNSRyYUDJJTk3kJfxTxJ4F+27TDBf40ATpAuXhpKstLf_ug@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAOsGNSRv-r_vmdS9PAS0gwLDfR0N3MgHrN4VJrS=ANbNUzaSSA@mail.gmail.com>

On 10/17/15, Zenaan Harkness <zen at freedbms.net> wrote:
> On 10/17/15, wirelesswarrior at safe-mail.net
> <wirelesswarrior at safe-mail.net> wrote:
>> "Almost everyone looks for a political solution to problems. However, once
>> a
>> Deep State situation has taken over, only a revolution or a dictatorship
>> can
>> turn it around, and probably only in a small country.
>>
>> "Here’s what would happen in the totally impossible scenario that this
>> person was elected and tried to act like a Lee Kuan Yew or an Augusto
>> Pinochet against the Deep State:"
>>
>> http://www.zerohedge.com/news/2015-10-16/how-survive-deep-state
>
> Thanks for the heads up - the last time you posted part 1, I found it

PS, even the comments grant an insight:
"Fuck how to "survive" the deep state! Tell me how to destroy the motherfucker!

Fri, 10/16/2015 - 22:58 | 6678042 Implied Violins
Easy: bust the child-porn rings.
ALL OF THEM. The rest will follow.
"

May be the real reason why publishing the crime of beheadings and
other gore is legal, but publishing this crime is illegal - minimize
the risk to the "elite" ('must not have any pesky vigilantes to stop
all the cover ups/ hush ups/ do nothing royal enquiries')?




From coderman at gmail.com  Sat Oct 17 13:27:30 2015
From: coderman at gmail.com (coderman)
Date: Sat, 17 Oct 2015 13:27:30 -0700
Subject: How To Survive The "Deep State"
In-Reply-To: <CAOsGNSRv-r_vmdS9PAS0gwLDfR0N3MgHrN4VJrS=ANbNUzaSSA@mail.gmail.com>
References: <N1B-UNcWgPfXjI@Safe-mail.net>
 <CAOsGNSRyYUDJJTk3kJfxTxJ4F+27TDBf40ATpAuXhpKstLf_ug@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAOsGNSRv-r_vmdS9PAS0gwLDfR0N3MgHrN4VJrS=ANbNUzaSSA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAJVRA1SBYRHKTumakWJSMhhiFz7guKVuiHcBxmAJ6M_dYMGKmg@mail.gmail.com>

On 10/17/15, Zenaan Harkness <zen at freedbms.net> wrote:
> ...
> "Fuck how to "survive" the deep state! Tell me how to destroy the
> motherfucker!

this is the proper question :)




From admin at pilobilus.net  Sat Oct 17 10:39:44 2015
From: admin at pilobilus.net (Steve Kinney)
Date: Sat, 17 Oct 2015 13:39:44 -0400
Subject: How To Survive The "Deep State"
In-Reply-To: <CAOsGNSRv-r_vmdS9PAS0gwLDfR0N3MgHrN4VJrS=ANbNUzaSSA@mail.gmail.com>
References: <N1B-UNcWgPfXjI@Safe-mail.net>
 <CAOsGNSRyYUDJJTk3kJfxTxJ4F+27TDBf40ATpAuXhpKstLf_ug@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAOsGNSRv-r_vmdS9PAS0gwLDfR0N3MgHrN4VJrS=ANbNUzaSSA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <562287E0.5000806@pilobilus.net>

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1

On 10/17/2015 09:15 AM, Zenaan Harkness wrote:

>>> "Here’s what would happen in the totally impossible
>>> scenario that this person was elected and tried to act like
>>> a Lee Kuan Yew or an Augusto Pinochet against the Deep
>>> State:"
>>> 
>>> http://www.zerohedge.com/news/2015-10-16/how-survive-deep-state
>>
>>
>>> 
Thanks for the heads up - the last time you posted part 1, I found i
t
> 
> PS, even the comments grant an insight: "Fuck how to "survive"
> the deep state! Tell me how to destroy the motherfucker!

I would say the author was politically naive.  His list of reforms
that a hypothetical Dictator of the United States could implement
to fix things, essentially consists of abolishing the functions of
the State in one sweeping blow, and (presumably) letting the
infallible Market replace them with something better.  But then I
realized he was pushing offshore Real Estate by promoting the idea
that "nothing can be done" to improve conditions in the U.S.

He also seems like applying the Laws O' Physics to large scale
human problems, which I'm all for.  But he manages to breeze right
past the inconvenient truth that a human population crash will be
well underway by the end of the century if not WAY sooner; I guess
that would make overseas Real Estate sound less desirable as a
retirement solution.

In re the Deep State, I'm all about "destroy the motherfucker," as
that's a guaranteed winning position:  It has already destroyed
itself, in that no human agency will be able to turn it from the
course it is committed to:  Perpetual exponential growth inside a
closed container.

The question is, how to "destroy the motherfucker" in a manner
that makes things better instead of worse?  Or, how best to
mitigate the human costs of the Deep State's self destruction.  My
preferred solution:  A revival of populist politics, in the sense
of large numbers of "regular folks" doing whatever it takes to
steal back some useful amount of the power that their rulers have
stolen from them over the last ... um ... history of Western
Civilization.

Here's some docs about that, the kind of info that's surprisingly
hard to dig up even from "radical" sources:

http://pilobilus.net/xfer/Strategic_Nonviolent_Conflict.zip

Of course, the resulting Utopia would at best be the "least bad"
of available options. I don't expect a world that anyone will ever
call "the Good Old Days" to appear before about 2150 at the soonest.

:o)



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From wirelesswarrior at safe-mail.net  Sat Oct 17 11:53:07 2015
From: wirelesswarrior at safe-mail.net (wirelesswarrior at safe-mail.net)
Date: Sat, 17 Oct 2015 14:53:07 -0400
Subject: New signals handbook for small teams (free) 
Message-ID: <N1B-R2nMi-WyYN@Safe-mail.net>

This series of handbooks is an attempt to provide a set of guidelines for effective tactical use of radios among small units, that will be universally relevant.


This first volume, Volume One, focuses on handheld team and squad level radios. This is information everyone in a unit should know. It covers the fundamentals, and progresses to more advanced information.

It is in PDF form.
Let me know what you think of it.

http://www.warriortalk.com/showthread.php?124519-New-signals-handbook-for-small-teams-%28free%29




From coderman at gmail.com  Sat Oct 17 15:38:32 2015
From: coderman at gmail.com (coderman)
Date: Sat, 17 Oct 2015 15:38:32 -0700
Subject: Fwd: [Gsmmap] How much of the IMSI Catcher Score can be derived
 WITHOUT a mobile phone ?
In-Reply-To: <CADC0ay06WemcKy6HU__x8qzo9pE4YCXEdNHsWdXGhFkXeOrh6g@mail.gmail.com>
References: <1022879958.1874530.1445106986332.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com>
 <CADC0ay06WemcKy6HU__x8qzo9pE4YCXEdNHsWdXGhFkXeOrh6g@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAJVRA1SEcwvWxA3BYB2Y=GwkHY_grO58poagi3DacWk_tW7h5w@mail.gmail.com>

---------- Forwarded message ----------
From: Steve Glass <stevie.glass at gmail.com>
Date: Sun, 18 Oct 2015 08:14:47 +1000
Subject: Re: [Gsmmap] How much of the IMSI Catcher Score can be
derived WITHOUT a mobile phone ?

An SDR can, in theory, capture more information that is just available
to the phone and can do so passively. Many of the same metrics apply
but can be derived from other traffic, e.g., for C1 the presence of
any unencrypted traffic on any channel in countries where traffic is
normally encrypted is a big giveaway.  Passively monitoring traffic
gives a more complete picture. It is, however, a game that a much
smaller number of participants can play because the hardware
requirements are for a suitable SDR rather than just a
Qualcomm-equiped Android phone.




From juan.g71 at gmail.com  Sat Oct 17 12:16:09 2015
From: juan.g71 at gmail.com (Juan)
Date: Sat, 17 Oct 2015 16:16:09 -0300
Subject: How To Survive The "Deep State"
In-Reply-To: <5622929E.9030101@riseup.net>
References: <N1B-UNcWgPfXjI@Safe-mail.net>
 <CAOsGNSRyYUDJJTk3kJfxTxJ4F+27TDBf40ATpAuXhpKstLf_ug@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAOsGNSRv-r_vmdS9PAS0gwLDfR0N3MgHrN4VJrS=ANbNUzaSSA@mail.gmail.com>
 <5622929E.9030101@riseup.net>
Message-ID: <56229d17.04918c0a.5043b.19d0@mx.google.com>

On Sat, 17 Oct 2015 11:25:34 -0700
Razer <Rayzer at riseup.net> wrote:


> Just a note that ZH, and almost ANY financial interest site is NOT a
> revolutionary site, and ZH is QUITE right wing libertarian.


	Yeah. I see that that ZH mentions doug casey. It turns out doug
	casey sells land in argentina. It also turns out that
	'libertarian' 'anarchist' doug casey is pretty friendly with
	the local political mafia - the romero family - who virtually
	'owns' the state(province) of salta. 

	https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rqZH78bqbWM


	



> 
> I doubt I'd like the solution the commenter above had in mind after
> the Deep State's destruction.
> 
> RR
> 




From drwho at virtadpt.net  Sat Oct 17 17:30:49 2015
From: drwho at virtadpt.net (The Doctor)
Date: Sat, 17 Oct 2015 17:30:49 -0700
Subject: Fwd: Ecartis command results: unsubscribe
In-Reply-To: <CANFTA0_rdORtSFUy574hiYAR+WEtOxH2jHM5VCVDdexdNf=bNg@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CANFTA0_rdORtSFUy574hiYAR+WEtOxH2jHM5VCVDdexdNf=bNg@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <20151017173049.b157ccdc9e8d82effc07ece5@virtadpt.net>

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On Fri, 16 Oct 2015 14:47:11 -0400
Michael Best <themikebest at gmail.com> wrote:

> I'm getting fed up with what feels like endless hypocrisy and personal
> attacks over a situation that I didn't play the dominant role in creating -
> JYA did. But I guess it's more fun to rabblerouse about shit and make
> accusations

How many other people on this mailing list bought a copy of the Cryptome archive, saw the logs, and kept their mouths shut because they knew damned well that they'd be causing the exact same shitstorm (with the same lack of anything being done about it) if they said anything?

- -- 
The Doctor [412/724/301/703/415] [ZS]

PGP: 0x807B17C1 / 7960 1CDC 85C9 0B63 8D9F  DD89 3BD8 FF2B 807B 17C1
WWW: https://drwho.virtadpt.net/

Just because someone's works are free does not mean that they are worthless.

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From juan.g71 at gmail.com  Sat Oct 17 13:42:25 2015
From: juan.g71 at gmail.com (Juan)
Date: Sat, 17 Oct 2015 17:42:25 -0300
Subject: How To Survive The "Deep State"
In-Reply-To: <CAJVRA1SBYRHKTumakWJSMhhiFz7guKVuiHcBxmAJ6M_dYMGKmg@mail.gmail.com>
References: <N1B-UNcWgPfXjI@Safe-mail.net>
 <CAOsGNSRyYUDJJTk3kJfxTxJ4F+27TDBf40ATpAuXhpKstLf_ug@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAOsGNSRv-r_vmdS9PAS0gwLDfR0N3MgHrN4VJrS=ANbNUzaSSA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAJVRA1SBYRHKTumakWJSMhhiFz7guKVuiHcBxmAJ6M_dYMGKmg@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <5622b149.de1a370a.c1590.29c6@mx.google.com>

On Sat, 17 Oct 2015 13:27:30 -0700
coderman <coderman at gmail.com> wrote:

> On 10/17/15, Zenaan Harkness <zen at freedbms.net> wrote:
> > ...
> > "Fuck how to "survive" the deep state! Tell me how to destroy the
> > motherfucker!
> 
> this is the proper question :)


	vote for the right politician and get a check from the state by
	working on the pentagon's propaganda< efforts, aka 'tor'.






From themikebest at gmail.com  Sat Oct 17 17:46:11 2015
From: themikebest at gmail.com (Michael Best)
Date: Sat, 17 Oct 2015 20:46:11 -0400
Subject: Fwd: Ecartis command results: unsubscribe
Message-ID: <CANFTA08Cqn-gKbj1=oaAPOYNLRFVUUydRoVGWhikvEvoo7ozdQ@mail.gmail.com>

>
> How many other people on this mailing list bought a copy of the Cryptome
> archive, saw the logs, and kept their mouths shut because they knew damned
> well that they'd be causing the exact same shitstorm (with the same lack of
> anything being done about it) if they said anything?


To be sure, sometimes I have too much faith* in people and not enough
foresight.

*Faith re: my expectations, not necessarily their righteousness or any
judgment on others


Regardless of how many people saw it and didn't report it, I think everyone
can agree that we all wish this had worked out more quietly and with less
friction.

--Michael the Fallible, First of His Name, King of the Fools and the Blind
Men.
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From ryacko at gmail.com  Sun Oct 18 00:34:16 2015
From: ryacko at gmail.com (Ryan Carboni)
Date: Sun, 18 Oct 2015 00:34:16 -0700
Subject: Snowden on the Twitters
Message-ID: <CAO7N=i0=DfyEwZarA0P51iSPrdMm_eTo-xGmTRCQR7M27W_uxQ@mail.gmail.com>

>
> It is behind Cloudflare's MiTM service which adds web services names to
> their existing certs as alternative Names.
>
> So your SSL/TLS connection is terminated on Cloudflare's web application
> firewalls and NOT the web servers that you think is terminating it.
>
> Given CF handle over 4% of web traffic it is a great place to collect and
> collate what was encrypted traffic for monitoring and anti-privacy purposes.
>
> Cheers,
> Oshwm.


Given that it was revealed that ISPs were subsidized in exchange for giving
the NSA full take, it makes cloudflare mildly suspicious. Although I
personally don't care. It's a free CDN and I suppose one expects some
freedom to be lost somewhere.
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From mirimir at riseup.net  Sat Oct 17 23:43:32 2015
From: mirimir at riseup.net (Mirimir)
Date: Sun, 18 Oct 2015 00:43:32 -0600
Subject: What are they doing?
In-Reply-To: <852269286.1918950.1445135869757.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com>
References: <852269286.1918950.1445135869757.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com>
 <852269286.1918950.1445135869757.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <56233F94.1090809@riseup.net>

On 10/17/2015 08:37 PM, jim bell wrote:
> Can anyone figure out what this is?   http://rightisthe.mightofthe.community/   They cite me in the bibliography.           Jim Bell  

Global direct democracy, no? With a focus on bypassing central banks.

And AP for contract enforcement, I suppose.




From jdb10987 at yahoo.com  Sat Oct 17 17:56:29 2015
From: jdb10987 at yahoo.com (jim bell)
Date: Sun, 18 Oct 2015 00:56:29 +0000 (UTC)
Subject: How To Survive The "Deep State"
In-Reply-To: <op.x6noo2azbgbjo9@mm.local>
References: <op.x6noo2azbgbjo9@mm.local>
Message-ID: <1004671192.1918925.1445129789135.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com>


"Forget about Jim Bell's Assassination Politics, what we need now more than
ever is "Castration Politics", where Darknet bounties for the genitals of
these sociopathic child rapists and their protectors are raised and then  
'harvested' by snatch 'n' snip teams."
It would require some modification for females.           Jim Bell






  
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From jdb10987 at yahoo.com  Sat Oct 17 19:37:49 2015
From: jdb10987 at yahoo.com (jim bell)
Date: Sun, 18 Oct 2015 02:37:49 +0000 (UTC)
Subject: What are they doing?
References: <852269286.1918950.1445135869757.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <852269286.1918950.1445135869757.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com>

Can anyone figure out what this is?   http://rightisthe.mightofthe.community/   They cite me in the bibliography.           Jim Bell  
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From mirimir at riseup.net  Sun Oct 18 04:54:08 2015
From: mirimir at riseup.net (Mirimir)
Date: Sun, 18 Oct 2015 05:54:08 -0600
Subject: Snowden on the Twitters
In-Reply-To: <562365A8.6020708@openmailbox.org>
References: <CAO7N=i0=DfyEwZarA0P51iSPrdMm_eTo-xGmTRCQR7M27W_uxQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <562365A8.6020708@openmailbox.org>
Message-ID: <56238860.9020402@riseup.net>

On 10/18/2015 03:26 AM, oshwm wrote:

<SNIP>

> When your ISP (and every other ISP/Peer) logs traffic then you can
> circumvent this by using a VPN/Tor/i2p etc and so the only logs they get
> prove that you are a privacy conscious customer who is actively using
> the internet.

Right. But it's best if you start with a mass-market popular VPN
service. Then do nested tunnels. Maybe do some torrenting. Blend.

> You can't use VPN/Tor/i2p to bypass the CDN's because the CDN is the
> endpoint in your communications.

Of course not.

> Therefore, the CDN has access to the entire contents of your
> communications which allows them to gather a massive amount of
> information about you.

True. All of it, arguably. But it won't be useful if you've
compartmentalized well enough, through different channels. Some of my
personas probably look a lot more like some of your personas than some
of my other personas. Or if not you, others who are reading this.

> When they can do this across multiple websites then the ability to
> correlate that information into a complete profile of you and your
> online activities becomes very dangerous.

Only if you haven't compartmentalized well enough.

> Unfortunately, avoiding CDNs is difficult because they are part of the
> Corporate and Government effort to centralise the web for exactly the
> reasons I outlined above.

No problem. Compartmentalize!

> So, the wise person expects to lose freedom but the wiser person does
> everything they can to reduce the loss.

For sure.

> One of the things that surprises me on this list is the number of people
> who are happy to accept the loss of privacy that the modern web allows.
> It's as if this isn't the Cypherpunks list after all!!!

There are many funny people on this list ;)




From admin at pilobilus.net  Sun Oct 18 04:20:39 2015
From: admin at pilobilus.net (Steve Kinney)
Date: Sun, 18 Oct 2015 07:20:39 -0400
Subject: How To Survive The "Deep State"
In-Reply-To: <20151018090151.GA2504@sivokote.iziade.m$>
References: <N1B-UNcWgPfXjI@Safe-mail.net>
 <20151018090151.GA2504@sivokote.iziade.m$>
Message-ID: <56238087.1040000@pilobilus.net>

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1

On 10/18/2015 05:01 AM, Georgi Guninski wrote:
> On Sat, Oct 17, 2015 at 03:02:20AM -0400,
> wirelesswarrior at safe-mail.net wrote:
>> http://www.zerohedge.com/news/2015-10-16/how-survive-deep-state
>
>> 
> What the author means by "deep _state_"?
> 
> First I interpreted it as "establishment/country", then thought
> it might mean "condition" or something else.

I assumed this:  http://cryptome.org/2014/08/deep-state-wins.pdf

This essay describes the Deep State as "national policy decisions
... being forged by a small group of power elite ... bound
together by shared class interests" and "the political process as
being dominated by corporate interests which coalesce into
factions and compete to guide policy."

The TPP and similar deals under negotiation indicate that the
'establishment' in question is trans-national.  The content of
these negotiations indicates that its agenda is, as always, more
money and power for the ruling class at any expense to anyone else.

I just call it real life.

Per my own pet theories, today's Deep State will self destruct by
virtue of its own existence:  Unbreakable commitments vs. Laws o'
Thermodynamics, never mind the details.  In that model, the actual
"fall" of the Deep State is already in progress, as part of a
complex and turbulent transitional period with historically
unprecedented features.  We do live in interesting times.

One of the most interesting political features of today's novel
social landscape is the Internet:  Analysis and exploitation of
group behavior in this new medium is all the rage in propaganda,
PsyOps and marketing disciplines.  Instant many to many mass
communication is inherently biased to facilitate popular
uprisings; among other things it breaks the State & Corporate
monopoly on propaganda, and enables rapid ad hoc organization and
large scale action by segments of the great unwashed public.
Pushing back agaisnt State efforts to control "problems" created
by Internet is a job for...  um...  isn't the word cyber-something?

:D






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From Rayzer at riseup.net  Sun Oct 18 09:06:14 2015
From: Rayzer at riseup.net (Razer)
Date: Sun, 18 Oct 2015 09:06:14 -0700
Subject: Fwd: Ecartis command results: unsubscribe
In-Reply-To: <20151017173049.b157ccdc9e8d82effc07ece5@virtadpt.net>
References: <CANFTA0_rdORtSFUy574hiYAR+WEtOxH2jHM5VCVDdexdNf=bNg@mail.gmail.com>
 <20151017173049.b157ccdc9e8d82effc07ece5@virtadpt.net>
Message-ID: <5623C376.9010601@riseup.net>



On 10/17/2015 05:30 PM, The Doctor wrote:
> On Fri, 16 Oct 2015 14:47:11 -0400
> Michael Best <themikebest at gmail.com> wrote:
>
> that I didn't play the dominant role in creating

ROTF.

>
> > I'm getting fed up with what feels like endless hypocrisy and personal
> > attacks over a situation that I didn't play the dominant role in
> creating -
> > JYA did. But I guess it's more fun to rabblerouse about shit and make
> > accusations
>
> How many other people on this mailing list bought a copy of the
> Cryptome archive, saw the logs, and kept their mouths shut because
> they knew damned well that they'd be causing the exact same shitstorm
> (with the same lack of anything being done about it) if they said
> anything?
>
>



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From shelley at misanthropia.org  Sun Oct 18 09:35:49 2015
From: shelley at misanthropia.org (Shelley)
Date: Sun, 18 Oct 2015 09:35:49 -0700
Subject: Snowden on the Twitters
In-Reply-To: <5623A7F1.7060704@pilobilus.net>
References: <CAO7N=i0=DfyEwZarA0P51iSPrdMm_eTo-xGmTRCQR7M27W_uxQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <562365A8.6020708@openmailbox.org> <5623A7F1.7060704@pilobilus.net>
Message-ID: <20151018163533.0C51F680152@frontend2.nyi.internal>

On October 18, 2015 7:18:36 AM Steve Kinney <admin at pilobilus.net> wrote:
>
> Ask not how to do everything you can to reduce State and corporate
> surveillance of your doings on the Internet.  Ask rather, how to
> do everything you can to make your use of the Internet damage the
> interests of State and corporate actors, more than their
> surveillance and responses to same can damage you.

Very well said!

There are situations where crypto is required.  We should do everything we 
can to help people learn to use it, especially to facilitate their 
communications when secrecy is absolutely necessary.

Yes, it's sometimes fun to encrypt fuck-off messages to the spooks inside 
lolcats.  But I've reached a point where I'm tiring of the cat-and-mouse 
game 24/7.  Encrypting *everything* frustrates them, but to me it also 
signals that we expect they are monitoring everything without cause or 
suspicion (in violation of the 4th amendment and many other laws of 
sovereign nations, worldwide) and we are giving them tacit permission to 
continue to do so.

Those who understand encryption and can use it correctly are still a 
relatively small minority.  I feel like "encrypting everything" just 
because *I* can, while the majority of the planet has never even heard of 
Whit Diffie or elliptical curve, sort of defeats the purpose.

We can protect ourselves (and in some cases, at this point in time, 
encryption is mandatory to our personal safety - but should not be used as 
false security), but dismantling the surveillance machine that captures 
everyone's emails to grandma, catalogues every single purchase and aids in 
the perversion of justice (via parallel construction, etc) seems to me to 
be the nobler goal.

Just my .02.

-S



>
> We do not pursue "freedom" because it is easy.  We pursue
> "freedom" because it is hard - and should not be.
>
> :D
>
>
>
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From admin at pilobilus.net  Sun Oct 18 07:08:49 2015
From: admin at pilobilus.net (Steve Kinney)
Date: Sun, 18 Oct 2015 10:08:49 -0400
Subject: Snowden on the Twitters
In-Reply-To: <562365A8.6020708@openmailbox.org>
References: <CAO7N=i0=DfyEwZarA0P51iSPrdMm_eTo-xGmTRCQR7M27W_uxQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <562365A8.6020708@openmailbox.org>
Message-ID: <5623A7F1.7060704@pilobilus.net>

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1

On 10/18/2015 05:26 AM, oshwm wrote:
[...]
> So, the wise person expects to lose freedom but the wiser 
> person does everything they can to reduce the loss.
> 
> One of the things that surprises me on this list is the number 
> of people who are happy to accept the loss of privacy that the 
> modern web allows. It's as if this isn't the Cypherpunks list 
> after all!!!

Ask not how to do everything you can to reduce State and corporate
surveillance of your doings on the Internet.  Ask rather, how to
do everything you can to make your use of the Internet damage the
interests of State and corporate actors, more than their
surveillance and responses to same can damage you.

We do not pursue "freedom" because it is easy.  We pursue
"freedom" because it is hard - and should not be.

:D



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From oshwm at openmailbox.org  Sun Oct 18 02:26:00 2015
From: oshwm at openmailbox.org (oshwm)
Date: Sun, 18 Oct 2015 10:26:00 +0100
Subject: Snowden on the Twitters
In-Reply-To: <CAO7N=i0=DfyEwZarA0P51iSPrdMm_eTo-xGmTRCQR7M27W_uxQ@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAO7N=i0=DfyEwZarA0P51iSPrdMm_eTo-xGmTRCQR7M27W_uxQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <562365A8.6020708@openmailbox.org>



On 18/10/15 08:34, Ryan Carboni wrote:
>>
>> It is behind Cloudflare's MiTM service which adds web services names to
>> their existing certs as alternative Names.
>>
>> So your SSL/TLS connection is terminated on Cloudflare's web application
>> firewalls and NOT the web servers that you think is terminating it.
>>
>> Given CF handle over 4% of web traffic it is a great place to collect and
>> collate what was encrypted traffic for monitoring and anti-privacy purposes.
>>
>> Cheers,
>> Oshwm.
> 
> 
> Given that it was revealed that ISPs were subsidized in exchange for giving
> the NSA full take, it makes cloudflare mildly suspicious. Although I
> personally don't care. It's a free CDN and I suppose one expects some
> freedom to be lost somewhere.
> 

Not quite...

When your ISP (and every other ISP/Peer) logs traffic then you can
circumvent this by using a VPN/Tor/i2p etc and so the only logs they get
prove that you are a privacy conscious customer who is actively using
the internet.

You can't use VPN/Tor/i2p to bypass the CDN's because the CDN is the
endpoint in your communications.
Therefore, the CDN has access to the entire contents of your
communications which allows them to gather a massive amount of
information about you.
When they can do this across multiple websites then the ability to
correlate that information into a complete profile of you and your
online activities becomes very dangerous.

Unfortunately, avoiding CDNs is difficult because they are part of the
Corporate and Government effort to centralise the web for exactly the
reasons I outlined above.

So, the wise person expects to lose freedom but the wiser person does
everything they can to reduce the loss.

One of the things that surprises me on this list is the number of people
who are happy to accept the loss of privacy that the modern web allows.
It's as if this isn't the Cypherpunks list after all!!!





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From shelley at misanthropia.org  Sun Oct 18 11:20:40 2015
From: shelley at misanthropia.org (Shelley)
Date: Sun, 18 Oct 2015 11:20:40 -0700
Subject: Fwd: Ecartis command results: unsubscribe
In-Reply-To: <20151017173049.b157ccdc9e8d82effc07ece5@virtadpt.net>
References: <CANFTA0_rdORtSFUy574hiYAR+WEtOxH2jHM5VCVDdexdNf=bNg@mail.gmail.com>
 <20151017173049.b157ccdc9e8d82effc07ece5@virtadpt.net>
Message-ID: <20151018182024.A89E3680116@frontend2.nyi.internal>

On October 17, 2015 5:42:24 PM The Doctor <drwho at virtadpt.net> wrote:
>
> How many other people on this mailing list bought a copy of the Cryptome 
> archive, saw the logs, and kept their mouths shut because they knew damned 
> well that they'd be causing the exact same shitstorm (with the same lack of 
> anything being done about it) if they said anything?
>

That doesn't make it right, Doc.  At least one copy of the archives 
containing the logs has been seeded for over a year (that we are aware of.) 
 If you saw the access logs, wouldn't you privately contact John to ask if 
they should be in there?

That's what Mike did.  Because there is a larger question of whether they 
could have been used to forge a slide, it became a more complex matter.  
When John ignored him and then attacked him and accused him of faking the 
data, he came here.  At that point, what else could he really do?

John says the log files have now been removed from the archive.  If Mike 
had remained quiet, as you seem to be suggesting, they'd still be in there.

I don't want to reignite the shitstorm, which is one reason why I've been 
quiet - and I'm very sad to see Cathal leave the list over it (I hope Eugen 
doesn't smack him for directing the noise his way ;) but this whole thing 
has been just too strange.

-Shelley





From Rayzer at riseup.net  Sun Oct 18 11:43:30 2015
From: Rayzer at riseup.net (Razer)
Date: Sun, 18 Oct 2015 11:43:30 -0700
Subject: Fwd: Ecartis command results: unsubscribe
In-Reply-To: <20151018182024.A89E3680116@frontend2.nyi.internal>
References: <CANFTA0_rdORtSFUy574hiYAR+WEtOxH2jHM5VCVDdexdNf=bNg@mail.gmail.com>
 <20151017173049.b157ccdc9e8d82effc07ece5@virtadpt.net>
 <20151018182024.A89E3680116@frontend2.nyi.internal>
Message-ID: <5623E852.5060303@riseup.net>



On 10/18/2015 11:20 AM, Shelley wrote:

>
> That's what Mike did. 

What Mike did was make a mountain out of a molehill so he could plant
his flag (his name) on top.

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From shelley at misanthropia.org  Sun Oct 18 12:00:09 2015
From: shelley at misanthropia.org (Shelley)
Date: Sun, 18 Oct 2015 12:00:09 -0700
Subject: Fwd: Ecartis command results: unsubscribe
In-Reply-To: <5623E852.5060303@riseup.net>
References: <CANFTA0_rdORtSFUy574hiYAR+WEtOxH2jHM5VCVDdexdNf=bNg@mail.gmail.com>
 <20151017173049.b157ccdc9e8d82effc07ece5@virtadpt.net>
 <20151018182024.A89E3680116@frontend2.nyi.internal>
 <5623E852.5060303@riseup.net>
Message-ID: <20151018185953.5538D6800BE@frontend2.nyi.internal>

On October 18, 2015 11:51:10 AM Razer <Rayzer at riseup.net> wrote:
>
> What Mike did was make a mountain out of a molehill so he could plant
> his flag (his name) on top.
>

>From what I have come to understand, I would disagree with you Ray.  I 
think he would have been much happier to have solved it privately with John.

-Shelley






From guninski at guninski.com  Sun Oct 18 02:01:51 2015
From: guninski at guninski.com (Georgi Guninski)
Date: Sun, 18 Oct 2015 12:01:51 +0300
Subject: How To Survive The "Deep State"
In-Reply-To: <N1B-UNcWgPfXjI@Safe-mail.net>
References: <N1B-UNcWgPfXjI@Safe-mail.net>
Message-ID: <20151018090151.GA2504@sivokote.iziade.m$>

On Sat, Oct 17, 2015 at 03:02:20AM -0400, wirelesswarrior at safe-mail.net wrote:
> http://www.zerohedge.com/news/2015-10-16/how-survive-deep-state

What the author means by "deep _state_"?

First I interpreted it as "establishment/country",
then thought it might mean "condition" or something
else.




From Rayzer at riseup.net  Sun Oct 18 12:05:59 2015
From: Rayzer at riseup.net (Razer)
Date: Sun, 18 Oct 2015 12:05:59 -0700
Subject: Fwd: Ecartis command results: unsubscribe
In-Reply-To: <20151018185953.5538D6800BE@frontend2.nyi.internal>
References: <CANFTA0_rdORtSFUy574hiYAR+WEtOxH2jHM5VCVDdexdNf=bNg@mail.gmail.com>
 <20151017173049.b157ccdc9e8d82effc07ece5@virtadpt.net>
 <20151018182024.A89E3680116@frontend2.nyi.internal>
 <5623E852.5060303@riseup.net>
 <20151018185953.5538D6800BE@frontend2.nyi.internal>
Message-ID: <5623ED97.1060002@riseup.net>

We're just gonna have to agree to disagree...


On 10/18/2015 12:00 PM, Shelley wrote:
> On October 18, 2015 11:51:10 AM Razer <Rayzer at riseup.net> wrote:
>>
>> What Mike did was make a mountain out of a molehill so he could plant
>> his flag (his name) on top.
>>
>
>> From what I have come to understand, I would disagree with you Ray.  I 
> think he would have been much happier to have solved it privately with
> John.
>
> -Shelley
>
>
>
>


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From shelley at misanthropia.org  Sun Oct 18 12:10:28 2015
From: shelley at misanthropia.org (Shelley)
Date: Sun, 18 Oct 2015 12:10:28 -0700
Subject: Fwd: Ecartis command results: unsubscribe
In-Reply-To: <5623ED97.1060002@riseup.net>
References: <CANFTA0_rdORtSFUy574hiYAR+WEtOxH2jHM5VCVDdexdNf=bNg@mail.gmail.com>
 <20151017173049.b157ccdc9e8d82effc07ece5@virtadpt.net>
 <20151018182024.A89E3680116@frontend2.nyi.internal>
 <5623E852.5060303@riseup.net>
 <20151018185953.5538D6800BE@frontend2.nyi.internal>
 <5623ED97.1060002@riseup.net>
Message-ID: <20151018191012.2B6FCC00013@frontend1.nyi.internal>

On October 18, 2015 12:06:04 PM Razer <Rayzer at riseup.net> wrote:

> We're just gonna have to agree to disagree...
>

Understood.  I don't dislike you or have any quarrel with you, so we can 
just agree that we have differing views on this issue.

-S





From guninski at guninski.com  Sun Oct 18 03:24:10 2015
From: guninski at guninski.com (Georgi Guninski)
Date: Sun, 18 Oct 2015 13:24:10 +0300
Subject: Snowden on the Twitters
In-Reply-To: <CAO7N=i0=DfyEwZarA0P51iSPrdMm_eTo-xGmTRCQR7M27W_uxQ@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAO7N=i0=DfyEwZarA0P51iSPrdMm_eTo-xGmTRCQR7M27W_uxQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <20151018102410.GB2504@sivokote.iziade.m$>

On Sun, Oct 18, 2015 at 12:34:16AM -0700, Ryan Carboni wrote:
> personally don't care. It's a free CDN and I suppose one expects some
> freedom to be lost somewhere.

Yeah, it starts this way:
First you lose 1% freedom, then 2%, then 4%, then 8% ... and after
99-128% you are a product to be sold.

Observe that CF has your _private key_ and you don't have it.




From themikebest at gmail.com  Sun Oct 18 10:27:59 2015
From: themikebest at gmail.com (Michael Best)
Date: Sun, 18 Oct 2015 13:27:59 -0400
Subject: Fwd: Ecartis command results: unsubscribe
Message-ID: <CANFTA0-dOx6eT1StfvT1JXn4GZ13gi4YZ2meb366o41gRJ+3tg@mail.gmail.com>

>
> >>* that I didn't play the dominant role in creating *



> >ROTF.


You're right, it was me. NOT John for allowing the info out in the wild or
refusing to listen to me or forcing me to get other people to look at the
data to verify it. *eyeroll*

You so craAazy, Rayzer. ;-)

--Mike the Fallible, First of His Name, King of the Fools and the Blind Men.
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From juan.g71 at gmail.com  Sun Oct 18 12:27:52 2015
From: juan.g71 at gmail.com (Juan)
Date: Sun, 18 Oct 2015 16:27:52 -0300
Subject: How To Survive The "Deep State"
In-Reply-To: <56238087.1040000@pilobilus.net>
References: <N1B-UNcWgPfXjI@Safe-mail.net>
 <20151018090151.GA2504@sivokote.iziade.m$>
 <56238087.1040000@pilobilus.net>
Message-ID: <5623f14b.0ae88c0a.dd686.ffff9056@mx.google.com>

On Sun, 18 Oct 2015 07:20:39 -0400
Steve Kinney <admin at pilobilus.net> wrote:

> The TPP and similar deals under negotiation indicate that the
> 'establishment' in question is trans-national.  The content of
> these negotiations indicates that its agenda is, as always, more
> money and power for the ruling class at any expense to anyone else.
> 
> I just call it real life.
> 
> Per my own pet theories, today's Deep State will self destruct by
> virtue of its own existence:  


	Unfounded 'optimism'?

	
> Unbreakable commitments vs. Laws o'
> Thermodynamics, never mind the details. 


	Well, maybe you should provide some details otherwise you only
	have an unfounded assertion. 

	Real life is this : the state keeps getting more power. That is
	exactly the opposite of self-destruction. 
	


> In that model, the actual
> "fall" of the Deep State is already in progress, as part of a
> complex and turbulent transitional period with historically
> unprecedented features.  We do live in interesting times.
> 
> One of the most interesting political features of today's novel
> social landscape is the Internet:  Analysis and exploitation of
> group behavior in this new medium is all the rage in propaganda,
> PsyOps and marketing disciplines.  Instant many to many mass
> communication is inherently biased to facilitate popular
> uprisings; 


	That's why there are so many uprisings. Especially in a
	naturally libertarian 'nation' like the great US.


	Oh wait. So far the only internet 'uprisings' we've seen are
	actually CIA-GOOGLE-FACEBOOK-NSA coup de etats in the middle
	east? 


> among other things it breaks the State & Corporate
> monopoly on propaganda, 


	Well, I also WISH that would be the case but I know it ISN'T.




and enables rapid ad hoc organization and
> large scale action by segments of the great unwashed public.
> Pushing back agaisnt State efforts to control "problems" created
> by Internet is a job for...  um...  isn't the word cyber-something?
> 
> :D
>




From coderman at gmail.com  Sun Oct 18 16:47:51 2015
From: coderman at gmail.com (coderman)
Date: Sun, 18 Oct 2015 16:47:51 -0700
Subject: FOIPA adventures
In-Reply-To: <CAJVRA1SAOUWi485z=_VRnhLu=EL1c8rVQOvdFz09-P4TjbLHww@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAJVRA1SaJpNaPQx=s_7VVM==ony2sH0aUG3w11cjNX6escSm8w@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAJVRA1TUfu40206TOzK2kBsgCvbgBYYXmyKZ3E5n4KQuoEtZyg@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAJVRA1QtgMky_hsDLsmFwiXcxE528bZaDOQsjTqqj4tR-dbGBQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAJVRA1RwoyoRs-REWnhGd8cHZM6EJvcziTUDXbU5A6TMigOT6A@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAJVRA1Rwaq1fvE8p-s1JwOANvMc7X2E75bx5eNd4KGJapt6Nuw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAJVRA1TU5Frg3WOJk+3ZFEH0QAFya5xZnwzCfCUE+hL1NhKUFg@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAJVRA1Q0SDo9Fj3KAU9vA3cxR2=7pwcdpO3Ex=yi6g2WtRAg6A@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAJVRA1Srrb08Z9XvG+rYq30p2E_MnhJA6ynOLpdT--6gCvwiyQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAJVRA1RXD2dr16TJZK-MPcJm7nR0Ov=Dp9i5Anf5hKNFs2hq7w@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAJVRA1S97DSPk0NBjgon1LS4HHuGtq_03dqFppUnWq+t61a41A@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAJVRA1SyW_wOUcFUo6STbiePO8HmLV9LgF-PCgugvuPRD_tKWA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAJVRA1QaYYF=hoSQiSd4SHNUj-W6hjEJDhy1KxR9CfFKDgNkew@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAJVRA1TvZxj_qz6_xK8h13LOD-5mE6iNvT9dnThf4ue0_=kY3Q@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAJVRA1RbeuzfiVAOqaZ15p8kr67jxcBoNMOrJkt3K86_=FuVXw@mail.gmail.com>
 <000701d0bcb7$94118e80$bc34ab80$@co.uk>
 <CAJVRA1SE1O-PqmkV8vX=q5j_xs-YFOpH=OLxSvwaT8BBvadQmA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAJVRA1TwM3Re8Tz6NPxp_CeY5C4K3QN+Ceo5VbW3JKMbBABv9g@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAJVRA1SbqTrEbUJ84rLFWdu6+psY5uUzu-ZsVfyUwoSaMRcGdQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAJVRA1RDN6HsLCbF_wsK+zARO9PaEn80R9FSGnWgGVF4XkbbpQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAJVRA1Rt2gKvgnM0MCiqf2Q4vJ8wWxm=KabcQXeBYSqn4zRvKg@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAJVRA1Q95CKTVahkfQeH_pwaGDcgJ-4OL2=9o5ckQrZLG8HeUA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAJVRA1SyX65OE9-7DQ1hP1fGWHxY8rvCqFXhKPu4Oy4o6wt0gg@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAJVRA1SgoLtLFS9AFf_d043AGDVbKp4djDtijDR+zfCRJ8twTA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAJVRA1SvN5ML7TQnOUqz78PhYv8aefz=k8-4fPOwv2uHUVF3_w@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAJVRA1Ry2EV7qaFHmZJ9cjm8-waCNBCzenO9BpqW+YKChEHX7w@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAJVRA1S5juVmB6Ouy0JWbdeJdj9yz0W6tKQDY2q_zi+AC461EA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAJVRA1SYO0ia4VGLwFwZFowkD75YR61MC1TNc1wzHbZtmhy1_w@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAJVRA1SqWMVy6m6KuiJWQQG_6XPWoB+86-p45PWKvfn8wg_jeA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAJVRA1RWaiCZtig6+Seyk-UN9M3h9+2iZ0Otnqb6n=AFcRAeRw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAJVRA1QzHeh=rs0hRf0sugLZdbXvAhK+2Yte5Tbt_Tnv5Tf8mg@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAJVRA1SdAW+36Z8yYTdSFTtz8S8U5aiELv5NiuXg5Rg-vaFYew@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAJVRA1Svk488ax6sd4oy52rfM_u_E1EuzhUAQt6cQ2Jy5yRx5g@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAJVRA1S4=X5P6hKnZu224GjseL5ws1vRm6Gk4gJ+DG06oLjaDA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAJVRA1RsgoKvADCcRz76vj1xjT+EQDB96tw7-sgg_pf+BGzA=A@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAJVRA1TOMYnBh0-B=uh6n2HsOsFdY+SKVG-=XqKi6WPNro++PA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAJVRA1Qao1qE2kBSbb_V5NPQ7PF--VFnYQpc=08wY2_ZURz4hg@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAJVRA1S45TEydVoKDxW9SfC0DKcSdxB_HfjrvcZQjU5uymfFOQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAD2Ti29j9qCnTCBEpaTj9B2NdWpLQoAiT02QzbitiART9tFg6A@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAJVRA1SAOUWi485z=_VRnhLu=EL1c8rVQOvdFz09-P4TjbLHww@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAJVRA1T0E3Lny4YPOjvvCtpSZOmx5dim+nw7e_Zzz-PYXNUAjg@mail.gmail.com>

new one per Twitter censorship drama:
  "Legal authorities, processes, procedures for National Security
related activities to suppress, obscure, or remove social media
content posted to Twitter.com as text, image, video, or links to any
of same in a Tweet. This is explicitly to include responsive materials
related to such activities against foreign individuals vs. US citizens
as determined by Internet Protocol (IP) address of request (domestic
vs. foreign IPv4 or IPv6) or by metadata associated with the Twitter
account."

https://www.muckrock.com/foi/united-states-of-america-10/tweetdevnull-21887/
 to Department of Justice, National Security Division of the United
States of America.


best regards,




From coderman at gmail.com  Sun Oct 18 16:54:36 2015
From: coderman at gmail.com (coderman)
Date: Sun, 18 Oct 2015 16:54:36 -0700
Subject: How to remove all traces of the Deep State in phase transition [was
 Re: How To Survive The "Deep State"]
Message-ID: <CAJVRA1RVOLcb+QKp+6-_P4HNS6LVKgKk+0_Qz8M-Oc1xycq0wg@mail.gmail.com>

On 10/18/15, Steve Kinney <admin at pilobilus.net> wrote:
>...
> Per my own pet theories, today's Deep State will self destruct by
> virtue of its own existence:  Unbreakable commitments vs. Laws o'
> Thermodynamics, never mind the details.  In that model, the actual
> "fall" of the Deep State is already in progress, as part of a
> complex and turbulent transitional period with historically
> unprecedented features.  We do live in interesting times.

this is why we must destroy the deep state:
 a controlled demolition is more humane for all
   than a catastrophic deterioration!


note that the hardest part of this imperative left unsaid:
 replacing the current social and macroeconomic realities
  with a sustainable state-free and deep-state-free society.


good luck, earth humans! :)




From Rayzer at riseup.net  Sun Oct 18 18:42:04 2015
From: Rayzer at riseup.net (Razer)
Date: Sun, 18 Oct 2015 18:42:04 -0700
Subject: Suggest High-Signal Crew Ditch This for Reddit
In-Reply-To: <1445209667.1226043.413553841.61C021C4@webmail.messagingengine.com>
References: <1445023013.32260.36.camel@europa>
 <1445209667.1226043.413553841.61C021C4@webmail.messagingengine.com>
Message-ID: <56244A6C.6060400@riseup.net>



On 10/18/2015 04:07 PM, Alfie John wrote:
> the noise may be deliberate:
>
>   https://theintercept.com/2014/02/24/jtrig-manipulation/

Just watch the Israel trolls. Most are morons, but they sure make some
'noise'.

From the article:
> GCHQ describes the purpose of JTRIG in starkly clear terms: “using
> online techniques to make something happen in the real or cyber
> world,” including “information ops (influence or disruption).”
>
+1

Influence: Search Engines so googlers see THEIR info first.

Disruption: Make the forums they infest less desirable with
disinformation, sometimes quite obvious, repeated over and over and over
again intended to (see 'influence' first and...) generally annoy users
who disagree with them using ad hom filled rants, often tail-ending
comment threads so their info is first/last seen.

RR

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From wirelesswarrior at safe-mail.net  Sun Oct 18 16:30:00 2015
From: wirelesswarrior at safe-mail.net (wirelesswarrior at safe-mail.net)
Date: Sun, 18 Oct 2015 19:30:00 -0400
Subject: USB killer v2.0
Message-ID: <N1B-_a1Dnx4iJY@Safe-mail.net>

Jim,

Although Kopp's paper lacks some critical design details there are other online papers that reveal the missing elements in sufficent detail. Key components not shown in the linked article are a Q-switch, a pulse compression device most often used in lasers, that decreases pulse width and increases pulse amplitude (the explosive's detoniation isn't brief enough) and the microwave generator's design.

Heck, according to Kopp you really don't even need an explosive pump. A lightening discharge (triggered by laser or a small rocket) will do the trick. An advantage of the lightening method is the device is not destroyed (if you can safely retrieve it). Disadvantage, you must hide the device near a target (with high lightening activity) for extended periods.

WW

-------- Original Message --------
From: jim bell <jdb10987 at yahoo.com>
Apparently from: cypherpunks-bounces at cpunks.org
To: coderman <coderman at gmail.com>
Cc: Georgi Guninski <guninski at guninski.com>, "cypherpunks at cpunks.org" <cypherpunks at cpunks.org>
Subject: Re: USB killer v2.0
Date: Fri, 16 Oct 2015 05:25:36 +0000 (UTC)
 

>  
>  From: coderman <coderman at gmail.com>
> 
> 
>  
> >> However, for REAL damage, it would be useful to pulse the kilovolts into the
> >> magnetron:  Generally if you increase the voltage by 10, the power increases
> >> by 100.  Feed that microwave magnetron with brief (microseconds) pulses of
> >> 40,000 volts, rather than 4000, and it will probably generate close to 100
> >> kilowatts.  It would be necessary to establish that such a system will not
> >> arc with over-voltage, either within the waveguide or the associated
> >> high-voltage wiring.
> 
> >high voltage solid state built into shielding around the
> >waveguide/magnetron cavity presents smallest external hazard and
> >compact too.
> >of course, another order-of-mag level up in explosively pumped EW weapons :)
>  
> http://science.howstuffworks.com/e-bomb3.htm
> 
>  
> 
>  
>  
> 
> 
> 
> 
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From wirelesswarrior at safe-mail.net  Sun Oct 18 17:42:09 2015
From: wirelesswarrior at safe-mail.net (wirelesswarrior at safe-mail.net)
Date: Sun, 18 Oct 2015 20:42:09 -0400
Subject: MUTE and Solving the key exchange problem
Message-ID: <N1B-CrJh87I77p@Safe-mail.net>

Frank Braun has just released an alpha of his MUTE - secure messaging system.

This Prague 2015 Hacker Conference slide presentation included a very interesting section of how MUTE tries "Solving the key exchange problem". Here is a link to details and his slides. He welcomes positive criticism.

https://github.com/mutecomm/mute/blob/master/doc/keyexchangeproblem.md

WW




From alfiej at fastmail.fm  Sun Oct 18 16:07:47 2015
From: alfiej at fastmail.fm (Alfie John)
Date: Mon, 19 Oct 2015 10:07:47 +1100
Subject: Suggest High-Signal Crew Ditch This for Reddit
In-Reply-To: <1445023013.32260.36.camel@europa>
References: <1445023013.32260.36.camel@europa>
Message-ID: <1445209667.1226043.413553841.61C021C4@webmail.messagingengine.com>

On Sat, Oct 17, 2015, at 06:16 AM, Cathal Garvey wrote:
> Not gonna screed about this, anyone who feels about this shit like I do
> is probably going to get this already. CPunks is more noise than signal,
> even if the signal part is pretty good.
> 
> Reddit is the only open source SocNet, and has topic-based enclosure (so
> no more firehose of stupidity on one's inbox) and downvoting to remove
> the idiocy if users set their clients to remove low-rated posts.
> 
> I'm ditching this list, but see the higher-signal folks on Reddit at:

Just remember that the noise may be deliberate:

  https://theintercept.com/2014/02/24/jtrig-manipulation/

Alfie

-- 
  Alfie John
  alfiej at fastmail.fm




From Rayzer at riseup.net  Mon Oct 19 11:04:03 2015
From: Rayzer at riseup.net (Razer)
Date: Mon, 19 Oct 2015 11:04:03 -0700
Subject: WikiLeaks Hosts Cryptome with Search
In-Reply-To: <E1ZoEQy-0004X7-TQ@elasmtp-junco.atl.sa.earthlink.net>
References: <E1ZoEQy-0004X7-TQ@elasmtp-junco.atl.sa.earthlink.net>
Message-ID: <56253093.8030203@riseup.net>

ROTF! Everything in a tweet.

> FYI @wikileaks <https://twitter.com/wikileaks> is hosting @Cryptomeorg
> <https://twitter.com/Cryptomeorg> w/ nifty Prism/Google-like search
> https://cryptome.wikileaks.org/ Got #Prism
> <https://twitter.com/search?q=%23Prism>? Get it http://getprsm.com/

RR


On 10/19/2015 10:42 AM, John Young wrote:
> WikiLeaks Hosts Cryptome with Search
>
> https://cryptome.wikileaks.org
>
>
>
>
>
>
>


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From rich at openwatch.net  Mon Oct 19 11:08:54 2015
From: rich at openwatch.net (Rich Jones)
Date: Mon, 19 Oct 2015 11:08:54 -0700
Subject: WikiLeaks Hosts Cryptome with Search
In-Reply-To: <E1ZoEQy-0004X7-TQ@elasmtp-junco.atl.sa.earthlink.net>
References: <E1ZoEQy-0004X7-TQ@elasmtp-junco.atl.sa.earthlink.net>
Message-ID: <CADJYzxJ8z-6sPA03ptbKmk15=0LrO1AGP+BtcV+e4HMDsNmBjw@mail.gmail.com>

Is this completely unsanctioned? Do you have any knowledge about the
architecture of their mirroring system?

R

On Mon, Oct 19, 2015 at 10:42 AM, John Young <jya at pipeline.com> wrote:

> WikiLeaks Hosts Cryptome with Search
>
> https://cryptome.wikileaks.org
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
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From drwho at virtadpt.net  Mon Oct 19 12:14:09 2015
From: drwho at virtadpt.net (The Doctor)
Date: Mon, 19 Oct 2015 12:14:09 -0700
Subject: Fwd: Ecartis command results: unsubscribe
In-Reply-To: <20151018182024.A89E3680116@frontend2.nyi.internal>
References: <CANFTA0_rdORtSFUy574hiYAR+WEtOxH2jHM5VCVDdexdNf=bNg@mail.gmail.com>
 <20151017173049.b157ccdc9e8d82effc07ece5@virtadpt.net>
 <20151018182024.A89E3680116@frontend2.nyi.internal>
Message-ID: <20151019121409.213367beace8d35f61330523@virtadpt.net>

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA512

On Sun, 18 Oct 2015 11:20:40 -0700
Shelley <shelley at misanthropia.org> wrote:

> That doesn't make it right, Doc.  At least one copy of the archives 
> containing the logs has been seeded for over a year (that we are aware of.) 
>  If you saw the access logs, wouldn't you privately contact John to ask if 
> they should be in there?

I did not say it was right.  I am genuinely curious about just how much the rough-and-tumble nature of this mailing list might or might not effect disclosures of this sort.  To put it another way, might someone have seen it nearly a year ago but kept quiet because they did not want to kick off a flamewar of this nature.

> John says the log files have now been removed from the archive.  If Mike 
> had remained quiet, as you seem to be suggesting, they'd still be in there.

I do wonder if that might be the case.  There is no data to back it up one way or another, so that is all it can be, though.

> I don't want to reignite the shitstorm, which is one reason why I've been 
> quiet - and I'm very sad to see Cathal leave the list over it (I hope Eugen 
> doesn't smack him for directing the noise his way ;) but this whole thing 
> has been just too strange.

Indeed.

- -- 
The Doctor [412/724/301/703/415] [ZS]

PGP: 0x807B17C1 / 7960 1CDC 85C9 0B63 8D9F  DD89 3BD8 FF2B 807B 17C1
WWW: https://drwho.virtadpt.net/

"If you don't teach them to read, you can fool them whenever you like."

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From jya at pipeline.com  Mon Oct 19 10:42:25 2015
From: jya at pipeline.com (John Young)
Date: Mon, 19 Oct 2015 13:42:25 -0400
Subject: WikiLeaks Hosts Cryptome with Search
Message-ID: <E1ZoEQy-0004X7-TQ@elasmtp-junco.atl.sa.earthlink.net>

WikiLeaks Hosts Cryptome with Search

https://cryptome.wikileaks.org









From guninski at guninski.com  Mon Oct 19 04:49:21 2015
From: guninski at guninski.com (Georgi Guninski)
Date: Mon, 19 Oct 2015 14:49:21 +0300
Subject: USB killer v2.0
In-Reply-To: <N1B-_a1Dnx4iJY@Safe-mail.net>
References: <N1B-_a1Dnx4iJY@Safe-mail.net>
Message-ID: <20151019114921.GB2576@sivokote.iziade.m$>

Someone sent me these:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WcOhd9ikNAw
10 GHz pulse magnetron destroys electronics

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DoOT2_Z-GIE
microwave gun (1Kw directed HERF)

Appear to me they are more simple, using
just a cone for focusing.


On Sun, Oct 18, 2015 at 07:30:00PM -0400, wirelesswarrior at safe-mail.net wrote:
> Jim,
> 
> Although Kopp's paper lacks some critical design details there are other online papers that reveal the missing elements in sufficent detail. Key components not shown in the linked article are a Q-switch, a pulse compression device most often used in lasers, that decreases pulse width and increases pulse amplitude (the explosive's detoniation isn't brief enough) and the microwave generator's design.
> 
> Heck, according to Kopp you really don't even need an explosive pump. A lightening discharge (triggered by laser or a small rocket) will do the trick. An advantage of the lightening method is the device is not destroyed (if you can safely retrieve it). Disadvantage, you must hide the device near a target (with high lightening activity) for extended periods.
> 




From coderman at gmail.com  Mon Oct 19 16:42:54 2015
From: coderman at gmail.com (coderman)
Date: Mon, 19 Oct 2015 16:42:54 -0700
Subject: FOIPA adventures
In-Reply-To: <CAD2Ti2-gsSrfwxAhgPB9nc68eFBi6-NWzo7f4=+YzPg3nxg9Cw@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAJVRA1SaJpNaPQx=s_7VVM==ony2sH0aUG3w11cjNX6escSm8w@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAJVRA1TUfu40206TOzK2kBsgCvbgBYYXmyKZ3E5n4KQuoEtZyg@mail.gmail.com>
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 <CAJVRA1Srrb08Z9XvG+rYq30p2E_MnhJA6ynOLpdT--6gCvwiyQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAJVRA1RXD2dr16TJZK-MPcJm7nR0Ov=Dp9i5Anf5hKNFs2hq7w@mail.gmail.com>
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 <CAJVRA1SyW_wOUcFUo6STbiePO8HmLV9LgF-PCgugvuPRD_tKWA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAJVRA1QaYYF=hoSQiSd4SHNUj-W6hjEJDhy1KxR9CfFKDgNkew@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAJVRA1TvZxj_qz6_xK8h13LOD-5mE6iNvT9dnThf4ue0_=kY3Q@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAJVRA1RbeuzfiVAOqaZ15p8kr67jxcBoNMOrJkt3K86_=FuVXw@mail.gmail.com>
 <000701d0bcb7$94118e80$bc34ab80$@co.uk>
 <CAJVRA1SE1O-PqmkV8vX=q5j_xs-YFOpH=OLxSvwaT8BBvadQmA@mail.gmail.com>
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 <CAJVRA1S5juVmB6Ouy0JWbdeJdj9yz0W6tKQDY2q_zi+AC461EA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAJVRA1SYO0ia4VGLwFwZFowkD75YR61MC1TNc1wzHbZtmhy1_w@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAJVRA1SqWMVy6m6KuiJWQQG_6XPWoB+86-p45PWKvfn8wg_jeA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAJVRA1RWaiCZtig6+Seyk-UN9M3h9+2iZ0Otnqb6n=AFcRAeRw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAJVRA1QzHeh=rs0hRf0sugLZdbXvAhK+2Yte5Tbt_Tnv5Tf8mg@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAJVRA1SdAW+36Z8yYTdSFTtz8S8U5aiELv5NiuXg5Rg-vaFYew@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAJVRA1Svk488ax6sd4oy52rfM_u_E1EuzhUAQt6cQ2Jy5yRx5g@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAJVRA1S4=X5P6hKnZu224GjseL5ws1vRm6Gk4gJ+DG06oLjaDA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAJVRA1RsgoKvADCcRz76vj1xjT+EQDB96tw7-sgg_pf+BGzA=A@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAJVRA1TOMYnBh0-B=uh6n2HsOsFdY+SKVG-=XqKi6WPNro++PA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAJVRA1Qao1qE2kBSbb_V5NPQ7PF--VFnYQpc=08wY2_ZURz4hg@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAJVRA1S45TEydVoKDxW9SfC0DKcSdxB_HfjrvcZQjU5uymfFOQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAD2Ti29j9qCnTCBEpaTj9B2NdWpLQoAiT02QzbitiART9tFg6A@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAJVRA1SAOUWi485z=_VRnhLu=EL1c8rVQOvdFz09-P4TjbLHww@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAD2Ti2-gsSrfwxAhgPB9nc68eFBi6-NWzo7f4=+YzPg3nxg9Cw@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAJVRA1T_Fy0OvbeA9agsy_94SP_qverBZaKSJaG8ZqYvft0uHA@mail.gmail.com>

On 10/19/15, grarpamp <grarpamp at gmail.com> wrote:
> Cecil D. Andrus, a Democrat, was elected governor of Idaho four
> times—in 1970, 1974, 1986, and 1990—and served as US Secretary of the
> Interior under President Carter.
>
> I have been involved in government at the state and federal level for
> a long time and have had my share of political and legal run-ins with
> government agencies, but rarely in more than 50 years in politics have
> I encountered a government agency more committed to secrecy—perhaps
> even deception—than the US Department of Energy.


yup; DoE full of guilty hands.  still need to dig into Rocky Flats
plant in Colorado, and the Plutonium catastrophe covered up ever
since...


best regards,




From coderman at gmail.com  Mon Oct 19 16:47:15 2015
From: coderman at gmail.com (coderman)
Date: Mon, 19 Oct 2015 16:47:15 -0700
Subject: [cryptome] WikiLeaks Hosts Cryptome with Search
In-Reply-To: <E1ZoEQy-0004X7-TQ@elasmtp-junco.atl.sa.earthlink.net>
References: <E1ZoEQy-0004X7-TQ@elasmtp-junco.atl.sa.earthlink.net>
Message-ID: <CAJVRA1T66QzJkbyJbSf9+-1J1RKwBfErC3vM6LRJazbRT+feOQ@mail.gmail.com>

On 10/19/15, John Young <jya at pipeline.com> wrote:
> WikiLeaks Hosts Cryptome with Search
>
> https://cryptome.wikileaks.org


full circle!  :P

with archive.org and wikileaks mirrors available, time to monitor
selective availability / removal...  past the crux? or fights ahead?


best regards,




From shelley at misanthropia.org  Mon Oct 19 16:53:08 2015
From: shelley at misanthropia.org (Shelley)
Date: Mon, 19 Oct 2015 16:53:08 -0700
Subject: @phphax vs CIA: In All Yer Base since 1983
In-Reply-To: <CAD2Ti28UkHXQ8QXFQbX=phFYO9VQFrqbO82+hjihqLZGGDmP2w@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAD2Ti28UkHXQ8QXFQbX=phFYO9VQFrqbO82+hjihqLZGGDmP2w@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <20151019235252.BF92CC0001E@frontend1.nyi.internal>

On October 19, 2015 3:59:52 PM grarpamp <grarpamp at gmail.com> wrote:

> "We are aware of the reports on social media and we are referring to
> the appropriate authorities," the senior official said.
>
> https://twitter.com/phphax
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/WarGames


"He claimed he has repeatedly prank-called America's top spy since August, 
once reciting Brennan's Social Security number to him.

"He waited a tiny bit and hung up," the hacker said.""

I can't stop laughing.  Seriously, I have tears!

http://nypost.com/2015/10/18/stoner-high-school-student-says-he-hacked-the-cia/






From grarpamp at gmail.com  Mon Oct 19 15:45:43 2015
From: grarpamp at gmail.com (grarpamp)
Date: Mon, 19 Oct 2015 18:45:43 -0400
Subject: John McAfee Runs For US President In 2016 Under Cyber Party
Message-ID: <CAD2Ti28C83pXpcSJGm_MnOgQbnq0Jnq4kRt=qTYAQbicz3Q69Q@mail.gmail.com>

Recently you had a chance to ask John McAfee about his presidential
run under the newly-formed Cyber Party. John covers a wide variety of
topics from education and infrastructure, to gun control and drug
legalization. Read below for his answers to your questions.

http://politics.slashdot.org/story/15/10/19/1517221/interviews-john-mcafee-answers-your-questions-about-his-presidential-bid




From grarpamp at gmail.com  Mon Oct 19 15:52:45 2015
From: grarpamp at gmail.com (grarpamp)
Date: Mon, 19 Oct 2015 18:52:45 -0400
Subject: @phphax vs CIA: In All Yer Base since 1983
Message-ID: <CAD2Ti28UkHXQ8QXFQbX=phFYO9VQFrqbO82+hjihqLZGGDmP2w@mail.gmail.com>

"We are aware of the reports on social media and we are referring to
the appropriate authorities," the senior official said.

https://twitter.com/phphax
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/WarGames




From grarpamp at gmail.com  Mon Oct 19 16:01:14 2015
From: grarpamp at gmail.com (grarpamp)
Date: Mon, 19 Oct 2015 19:01:14 -0400
Subject: Facebook admits obvious, Claims miraculous knowledge of States G-Men
Message-ID: <CAD2Ti29Sr+OQdVXHeFOyrskzOg4gh_3LA6w0Ebrz=bcMhXzv-A@mail.gmail.com>

Starting today, we will notify you if we believe your account has been
targeted or compromised by an attacker suspected of working on behalf
of a nation-state. ...
To protect the integrity of our methods and processes, we often won't
be able to explain how we attribute certain attacks to suspected
attackers.

https://www.facebook.com/notes/facebook-security/notifications-for-targeted-attacks/10153092994615766




From grarpamp at gmail.com  Mon Oct 19 16:14:14 2015
From: grarpamp at gmail.com (grarpamp)
Date: Mon, 19 Oct 2015 19:14:14 -0400
Subject: FOIPA adventures
In-Reply-To: <CAJVRA1SAOUWi485z=_VRnhLu=EL1c8rVQOvdFz09-P4TjbLHww@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAJVRA1SaJpNaPQx=s_7VVM==ony2sH0aUG3w11cjNX6escSm8w@mail.gmail.com>
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 <CAJVRA1Svk488ax6sd4oy52rfM_u_E1EuzhUAQt6cQ2Jy5yRx5g@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAJVRA1S4=X5P6hKnZu224GjseL5ws1vRm6Gk4gJ+DG06oLjaDA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAJVRA1RsgoKvADCcRz76vj1xjT+EQDB96tw7-sgg_pf+BGzA=A@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAJVRA1TOMYnBh0-B=uh6n2HsOsFdY+SKVG-=XqKi6WPNro++PA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAJVRA1Qao1qE2kBSbb_V5NPQ7PF--VFnYQpc=08wY2_ZURz4hg@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAJVRA1S45TEydVoKDxW9SfC0DKcSdxB_HfjrvcZQjU5uymfFOQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAD2Ti29j9qCnTCBEpaTj9B2NdWpLQoAiT02QzbitiART9tFg6A@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAJVRA1SAOUWi485z=_VRnhLu=EL1c8rVQOvdFz09-P4TjbLHww@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAD2Ti2-gsSrfwxAhgPB9nc68eFBi6-NWzo7f4=+YzPg3nxg9Cw@mail.gmail.com>

Cecil D. Andrus, a Democrat, was elected governor of Idaho four
times—in 1970, 1974, 1986, and 1990—and served as US Secretary of the
Interior under President Carter.

I have been involved in government at the state and federal level for
a long time and have had my share of political and legal run-ins with
government agencies, but rarely in more than 50 years in politics have
I encountered a government agency more committed to secrecy—perhaps
even deception—than the US Department of Energy.

Most citizens of my state know that, since last January, former
Republican Governor Phil Batt and I have been raising questions about
a plan by the US Department of Energy to bring additional shipments of
commercial spent nuclear fuel to the Idaho National Laboratory in
eastern Idaho for “research.”

http://thebulletin.org/holding-department-energy-accountable-idaho8807




From grarpamp at gmail.com  Mon Oct 19 17:25:16 2015
From: grarpamp at gmail.com (grarpamp)
Date: Mon, 19 Oct 2015 20:25:16 -0400
Subject: Cyber Guerrilla Warfare, OPSEC, etc... [re: kicks bucket]
In-Reply-To: <20151007103750.ea3de5d526f31ed3ed960931@virtadpt.net>
References: <CAD2Ti2_Z59aLCgV9mNSZGtbTnvN=ZXqToXQFcUwVdtPvyhJQ=A@mail.gmail.com>
 <20151007103750.ea3de5d526f31ed3ed960931@virtadpt.net>
Message-ID: <CAD2Ti29k6RBsQY0-x4JkPt67NB6ZD=P+a3__9Vbrcxsm3-8OVQ@mail.gmail.com>

On Wed, Oct 7, 2015 at 1:37 PM, The Doctor <drwho at virtadpt.net> wrote:
>> What is the time to a fix and physical intercept on your location?
>
> The Oakland Privacy Working Group has been doing a lot of work insofar as STINGRAY/HAILSTORM/whatever next generation cellular device position tracking hardware is concerned.  They would probably have some ideas on time-to-physical lock.  It is relatively to suss out the vehicles that are so equipped based upon the antennae magmounted on the roofs or the trunk lids.

Do cybers need an ops team?

> Are you factoring street viewing securicams

Cams are surely of interest to those in the field.

> and shotspotter recording devices in?
> http://sanfrancisco.cbslocal.com/2014/05/21/shooting-crime-privacy-tech-oaklands-shotspotter-equipment-records-voice-conversations/

The thread was intended about cyber operators... people moving
around with backpacks (or on wheels) with wifi, cell, laptops,
rf gear, buttsets, cabling tools, blackbag physical entry, etc,
or even info operators.. chasing valuable paper, keys, objects,
authentication, disguises / cloning, and so on.

But it could be extended to analyze the situation facing AP,
kidnap / ransom, or any plain old street thing where "shots"
or other direct in person action with / against other humans
are involved.

Cyber doesn't have much of that beyond social engineering,
bypass, etc.

> Would the drones be operating at an altitude at which they could reasonably be taken out?

That's probably out of scope for a cyber op. Unless they're
supporting some greater non cyber goal (war), for which the
warfighters would try taking them out to provide cover.

> I often wonder how wigle.net can be abused to track someone...

If they're walking around with the app turned on phoning home
current finds...




From jya at pipeline.com  Mon Oct 19 18:01:08 2015
From: jya at pipeline.com (John Young)
Date: Mon, 19 Oct 2015 21:01:08 -0400
Subject: WikiLeaks is not hosting Cryptome, search service only
Message-ID: <E1ZoLI9-0004JG-M4@elasmtp-dupuy.atl.sa.earthlink.net>

Clarify: WikiLeaks is not hosting Cryptome, instead a search service
which points to Cryptome site files. Mighty helpful.





From themikebest at gmail.com  Mon Oct 19 18:22:07 2015
From: themikebest at gmail.com (Michael Best)
Date: Mon, 19 Oct 2015 21:22:07 -0400
Subject: [cryptome] WikiLeaks is not hosting Cryptome, search service only
In-Reply-To: <E1ZoLI9-0004JG-M4@elasmtp-dupuy.atl.sa.earthlink.net>
References: <E1ZoLI9-0004JG-M4@elasmtp-dupuy.atl.sa.earthlink.net>
Message-ID: <DA685E3E-BEE0-4F0D-9E97-70327913B69B@gmail.com>

Index only shows about 60k items so far. I'm wondering if it's still building, if the same thing limiting Google's index of the site limits the WL search, if there's a count limit or if my blank and wildcard searches somehow don't include everything. 

Keep in mind I know basically nothing about search engines, SEO or anything so I probably have a faulty assumption. 

Sent from my iPhone

> On Oct 19, 2015, at 21:01, John Young <jya at pipeline.com> wrote:
> 
> Clarify: WikiLeaks is not hosting Cryptome, instead a search service
> which points to Cryptome site files. Mighty helpful.
> 
> 
> 




From juan.g71 at gmail.com  Mon Oct 19 17:28:40 2015
From: juan.g71 at gmail.com (Juan)
Date: Mon, 19 Oct 2015 21:28:40 -0300
Subject: Facebook admits obvious, Claims miraculous knowledge of States
 G-Men
In-Reply-To: <CAD2Ti29Sr+OQdVXHeFOyrskzOg4gh_3LA6w0Ebrz=bcMhXzv-A@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAD2Ti29Sr+OQdVXHeFOyrskzOg4gh_3LA6w0Ebrz=bcMhXzv-A@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <5625894b.92948c0a.81f82.0c39@mx.google.com>

On Mon, 19 Oct 2015 19:01:14 -0400
grarpamp <grarpamp at gmail.com> wrote:

> Starting today, we will notify you if we believe your account has been
> targeted or compromised by an attacker suspected of working on behalf
> of a nation-state. ...


	LLLLLLLMMMMMMMMAAAAAAAAOOOOOOOOOO!!!!!!!!!!!!!


> To protect the integrity of our methods and processes, we often won't
> be able to explain how we attribute certain attacks to suspected
> attackers.
> 
> https://www.facebook.com/notes/facebook-security/notifications-for-targeted-attacks/10153092994615766



	So, that's to be expected from  psychos like fukerberg
	and all his lapdogs. Those people not only are the sickest
	predators on the planet, they also devote time to thoroughly
	mock their victims. 

	beating fukerberg to a pulp and feeding him to the pigs would
	be a humanitarian deed.










From juan.g71 at gmail.com  Mon Oct 19 17:46:28 2015
From: juan.g71 at gmail.com (Juan)
Date: Mon, 19 Oct 2015 21:46:28 -0300
Subject: Facebook admits obvious, Claims miraculous knowledge of States
 G-Men
In-Reply-To: <CAHKdp-=E4N1HJZjSzR2jaJU0aivN+v-g7j=a8eOXPDF6m2UMkA@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAD2Ti29Sr+OQdVXHeFOyrskzOg4gh_3LA6w0Ebrz=bcMhXzv-A@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAOsGNSRNQoEXKEVJTbXnfv-yq2ZbYdfShhLnYxXs9ECEumK3HQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAHKdp-=E4N1HJZjSzR2jaJU0aivN+v-g7j=a8eOXPDF6m2UMkA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <56258d76.08618c0a.5110e.0dcf@mx.google.com>

On Mon, 19 Oct 2015 23:53:38 +0000
Sean Lynch <seanl at literati.org> wrote:

> I suppose you would prefer they just kept their mouths shut when they
> discover a state-sponsored actor is targeting someone?

> 
> > On 10/19/15, grarpamp <grarpamp at gmail.com> wrote:
> > > Starting today, we will notify you if we believe your account has
> > > been targeted or compromised by an attacker suspected of working
> > > on behalf of a nation-state. ...
> > > To protect the integrity of our methods and processes, we often
> > > won't be able to explain how we attribute certain attacks to
> > > suspected attackers.



	Wait. I missed the point at first. 

	Let me translate : what facebook will do is tell its
	jew-christian american 'users' and the european pets (lapdogs),
	that evil governments like the arab, russian and chinese
	governments are 'attacking' their accounts. 


	Imagine just how good people will feel about facebook now that
	facebook protects them from hayrab terrists!!







From zen at freedbms.net  Mon Oct 19 16:39:07 2015
From: zen at freedbms.net (Zenaan Harkness)
Date: Mon, 19 Oct 2015 23:39:07 +0000
Subject: Facebook admits obvious,
 Claims miraculous knowledge of States G-Men
In-Reply-To: <CAD2Ti29Sr+OQdVXHeFOyrskzOg4gh_3LA6w0Ebrz=bcMhXzv-A@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAD2Ti29Sr+OQdVXHeFOyrskzOg4gh_3LA6w0Ebrz=bcMhXzv-A@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAOsGNSRNQoEXKEVJTbXnfv-yq2ZbYdfShhLnYxXs9ECEumK3HQ@mail.gmail.com>

On 10/19/15, grarpamp <grarpamp at gmail.com> wrote:
> Starting today, we will notify you if we believe your account has been
> targeted or compromised by an attacker suspected of working on behalf
> of a nation-state. ...
> To protect the integrity of our methods and processes, we often won't
> be able to explain how we attribute certain attacks to suspected
> attackers.
>
> https://www.facebook.com/notes/facebook-security/notifications-for-targeted-attacks/10153092994615766


HUGE sigh of relief! Finally Facebook will protect us. I just -knew-
all along we could trust them...

Since 'Big Brother' is taken, we need another name for our friendly
protective overlord.

Big Zucker?

Big Rucker?

Oh IDK, over to you guys...




From seanl at literati.org  Mon Oct 19 16:53:38 2015
From: seanl at literati.org (Sean Lynch)
Date: Mon, 19 Oct 2015 23:53:38 +0000
Subject: Facebook admits obvious,
 Claims miraculous knowledge of States G-Men
In-Reply-To: <CAOsGNSRNQoEXKEVJTbXnfv-yq2ZbYdfShhLnYxXs9ECEumK3HQ@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAD2Ti29Sr+OQdVXHeFOyrskzOg4gh_3LA6w0Ebrz=bcMhXzv-A@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAOsGNSRNQoEXKEVJTbXnfv-yq2ZbYdfShhLnYxXs9ECEumK3HQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAHKdp-=E4N1HJZjSzR2jaJU0aivN+v-g7j=a8eOXPDF6m2UMkA@mail.gmail.com>

I suppose you would prefer they just kept their mouths shut when they
discover a state-sponsored actor is targeting someone?

Damned if you do, damned if you don't, I suppose.

On Mon, Oct 19, 2015 at 4:44 PM Zenaan Harkness <zen at freedbms.net> wrote:

> On 10/19/15, grarpamp <grarpamp at gmail.com> wrote:
> > Starting today, we will notify you if we believe your account has been
> > targeted or compromised by an attacker suspected of working on behalf
> > of a nation-state. ...
> > To protect the integrity of our methods and processes, we often won't
> > be able to explain how we attribute certain attacks to suspected
> > attackers.
> >
> >
> https://www.facebook.com/notes/facebook-security/notifications-for-targeted-attacks/10153092994615766
>
>
> HUGE sigh of relief! Finally Facebook will protect us. I just -knew-
> all along we could trust them...
>
> Since 'Big Brother' is taken, we need another name for our friendly
> protective overlord.
>
> Big Zucker?
>
> Big Rucker?
>
> Oh IDK, over to you guys...
>
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From grarpamp at gmail.com  Mon Oct 19 21:34:59 2015
From: grarpamp at gmail.com (grarpamp)
Date: Tue, 20 Oct 2015 00:34:59 -0400
Subject: [tor-talk] Tor
In-Reply-To: <3069EA29-7494-4684-9BC2-3913EB330000@gmail.com>
References: <561ea5d9.e3568c0a.a5f46.32ed@mx.google.com>
 <5622c66a.f01b8c0a.9f4ba.3310@mx.google.com>
 <caps8srk6n8sx0dvckeke_qu9kwkdh8avpgyjuyfs7scryh3umw@mail.gmail.com>
 <20151017215951.71f8a907@emailcontrol.org> <561e69bf.70201@gmail.com>
 <7037A695606.00000209beatthebastards@inbox.com>
 <5622d435.83218c0a.d4e45.0f1c@mx.google.com>
 <56234309.20605@veloc1ty.de>
 <CADop2NG8TruMY8+gi2VXnuXrPNgo9+vXS3SNOgA+jDMw9XZh6Q@mail.gmail.com>
 <5623A9CF.7030908@foofus.com> <20151019222206.22651afe@emailcontrol.org>
 <56258812.03c98c0a.a3d9c.0c5b@mx.google.com>
 <3069EA29-7494-4684-9BC2-3913EB330000@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAD2Ti2_fyqyJY10DCrSzj9oceKD3Q7wHkp-Z03XVkasU2_vZow@mail.gmail.com>

On Mon, Oct 19, 2015 at 10:03 PM, Justin <davisjustin002 at gmail.com> wrote:
> According to a top secret NSA document, which you can view online:
> Tor is the king of high secure, low latency anonymity.  No contender awaits the throne.

The document does not say that.
Depending on your threat model and needed feature set
Tor may be good, not good enough, or a failure.
Plenty of room for competition and evaluation.
And many contenders in the fields of anonymous transport,
messaging, storage and so on both exist and are in development.

https://edwardsnowden.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/10/tor-stinks-presentation.pdf

Also, trim to relavance and quit top posting.




From coderman at gmail.com  Tue Oct 20 01:58:18 2015
From: coderman at gmail.com (coderman)
Date: Tue, 20 Oct 2015 01:58:18 -0700
Subject: [tor-talk] Tor
In-Reply-To: <5625f130.0b1d8c0a.72c60.2e1b@mx.google.com>
References: <561ea5d9.e3568c0a.a5f46.32ed@mx.google.com>
 <5622c66a.f01b8c0a.9f4ba.3310@mx.google.com>
 <caps8srk6n8sx0dvckeke_qu9kwkdh8avpgyjuyfs7scryh3umw@mail.gmail.com>
 <20151017215951.71f8a907@emailcontrol.org>
 <561e69bf.70201@gmail.com>
 <7037A695606.00000209beatthebastards@inbox.com>
 <5622d435.83218c0a.d4e45.0f1c@mx.google.com>
 <56234309.20605@veloc1ty.de>
 <CADop2NG8TruMY8+gi2VXnuXrPNgo9+vXS3SNOgA+jDMw9XZh6Q@mail.gmail.com>
 <5623A9CF.7030908@foofus.com>
 <20151019222206.22651afe@emailcontrol.org>
 <56258812.03c98c0a.a3d9c.0c5b@mx.google.com>
 <3069EA29-7494-4684-9BC2-3913EB330000@gmail.com>
 <CAD2Ti2_fyqyJY10DCrSzj9oceKD3Q7wHkp-Z03XVkasU2_vZow@mail.gmail.com>
 <CADop2NEHHJ+2B0e8L6Xj+hwBq3_iUhL0h2GOJnSAJbwqhvh7hQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <5625f130.0b1d8c0a.72c60.2e1b@mx.google.com>
Message-ID: <CAJVRA1Tj5f5EKLb=nauDop+3DQ=7tVNBD770+WoErtAV7u1hLg@mail.gmail.com>

On 10/20/15, Juan <juan.g71 at gmail.com> wrote:
> ...
> 	BY THE WAY, what kind of retard can take the above
> 	'presentation' seriously ?!

class time for Juan!



> 	"use cookies to identify tor users when they are not using tor"
> 	what !? the cookie monster?

See "Transparent Proxy" mode, un-approved third-party browser
configurations using Tor as SOCKS Proxy without Tor Browser
protections, etc...



> 	"How does tor handle dns requests? Are dns requests goin
> 	through tor? --- current : still investigating".

this is the SOCKS4 vs. SOCKS4a vs. SOCKS5 w/named connect, question.

if you are using a non-standard config leaking DNS, you're also
vulnerable to DNS poisoning for CNE or de-anon.



> 	"what do we know about hidden services? current : no effort by
> 	nsa"
>
> 	Sure. None. Nada. Nothing.

NSA goes where targets are. bet this is no longer true :P



> 	"can we exploit nodes. probably not. legal and technical
> 	challenges".
>
> 	... Well, boys nothing to see here. The government is completly
> 	inept AND, of course, they 'respect the law'. Whatever that is.

relays are the most hardened configuration of Tor. if Tor Browser
attack surface is one end of spectrum of vuln, Tor the implementation
on a dedicated server is quite the opposite.



> 	Somebody was talking about moles?

just diggin' dirt...




From grarpamp at gmail.com  Mon Oct 19 23:23:58 2015
From: grarpamp at gmail.com (grarpamp)
Date: Tue, 20 Oct 2015 02:23:58 -0400
Subject: How To Survive The "Deep State"
In-Reply-To: <N1B-UNcWgPfXjI@Safe-mail.net>
References: <N1B-UNcWgPfXjI@Safe-mail.net>
Message-ID: <CAD2Ti2-MmGuNg-MSLHdVKM9PbecEwXMUowbgQdMV1P6u=Z6dcA@mail.gmail.com>

On Sat, Oct 17, 2015 at 3:02 AM,  <wirelesswarrior at safe-mail.net> wrote:
> "Almost everyone looks for a political solution to problems. However, once a Deep State situation has taken over, only a revolution or a dictatorship can turn it around, and probably only in a small country.
>
> "Here’s what would happen in the totally impossible scenario that this person was elected and tried to act like a Lee Kuan Yew or an Augusto Pinochet against the Deep State:"
>
> http://www.zerohedge.com/news/2015-10-16/how-survive-deep-state

Deep State has been around in both conscious and subconscious
action forever... rape, pillage, plunder and maintain at all costs...

http://www.columbia.edu/~daviss/work/files/presentations/casshort/
A SHORT ACCOUNT OF THE DESTRUCTION OF THE INDIES
AUTHOR: BARTOLOMÉ DE LAS CASAS




From grarpamp at gmail.com  Mon Oct 19 23:43:44 2015
From: grarpamp at gmail.com (grarpamp)
Date: Tue, 20 Oct 2015 02:43:44 -0400
Subject: How To Survive The "Deep State"
In-Reply-To: <CAD2Ti2-MmGuNg-MSLHdVKM9PbecEwXMUowbgQdMV1P6u=Z6dcA@mail.gmail.com>
References: <N1B-UNcWgPfXjI@Safe-mail.net>
 <CAD2Ti2-MmGuNg-MSLHdVKM9PbecEwXMUowbgQdMV1P6u=Z6dcA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAD2Ti28AFn7VR=fK8hKou2QxCHxGiq73L6UDHs0N7NG8tCPyJw@mail.gmail.com>

> action forever... rape, pillage, plunder and maintain at all costs...

... including of course such fine maintenance as... MURDER.

> http://www.columbia.edu/~daviss/work/files/presentations/casshort/
> A SHORT ACCOUNT OF THE DESTRUCTION OF THE INDIES
> AUTHOR: BARTOLOMÉ DE LAS CASAS

They got ya by the balls...
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=acLW1vFO-2Q
http://agreenroad.blogspot.ch/2014/07/happy-4th-of-july-what-is-it-that-we.html
http://www.washingtonsblog.com/2015/10/warning-to-world-as-most-powerful-state-in-midst-of-major-power-grab-exalts-genocidal-madman-columbus.html
http://www.urban75.net/forums/threads/1945-the-savage-peace-very-very-disturbing-television.335191/




From juan.g71 at gmail.com  Tue Oct 20 00:02:30 2015
From: juan.g71 at gmail.com (Juan)
Date: Tue, 20 Oct 2015 04:02:30 -0300
Subject: [tor-talk] Tor
In-Reply-To: <CADop2NEHHJ+2B0e8L6Xj+hwBq3_iUhL0h2GOJnSAJbwqhvh7hQ@mail.gmail.com>
References: <561ea5d9.e3568c0a.a5f46.32ed@mx.google.com>
 <5622c66a.f01b8c0a.9f4ba.3310@mx.google.com>
 <caps8srk6n8sx0dvckeke_qu9kwkdh8avpgyjuyfs7scryh3umw@mail.gmail.com>
 <20151017215951.71f8a907@emailcontrol.org>
 <561e69bf.70201@gmail.com>
 <7037A695606.00000209beatthebastards@inbox.com>
 <5622d435.83218c0a.d4e45.0f1c@mx.google.com>
 <56234309.20605@veloc1ty.de>
 <CADop2NG8TruMY8+gi2VXnuXrPNgo9+vXS3SNOgA+jDMw9XZh6Q@mail.gmail.com>
 <5623A9CF.7030908@foofus.com>
 <20151019222206.22651afe@emailcontrol.org>
 <56258812.03c98c0a.a3d9c.0c5b@mx.google.com>
 <3069EA29-7494-4684-9BC2-3913EB330000@gmail.com>
 <CAD2Ti2_fyqyJY10DCrSzj9oceKD3Q7wHkp-Z03XVkasU2_vZow@mail.gmail.com>
 <CADop2NEHHJ+2B0e8L6Xj+hwBq3_iUhL0h2GOJnSAJbwqhvh7hQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <5625e59c.0ae88c0a.292e5.29a6@mx.google.com>

On Tue, 20 Oct 2015 04:42:32 +0000
Virgil Griffith <i at virgil.gr> wrote:

> I accuse Juan of being the actual mole here.  He so masterfully keeps
> us muttering to each other/him instead of working productively.


	How so? How do I keep you and your friends from collecting your
	pentagon checks? 

	Go ahead. Enlighten me. 


	Also, you can check who I am. Ask any of the tor high-rankinkg
	cunts to look me up in their .mil 'intelligence' databases. 



> 
> http://fortune.com/2015/09/30/workplace-bureaucracy-simple-sabotage/
> 
> 
> 
> On Tue, Oct 20, 2015 at 12:35 PM grarpamp <grarpamp at gmail.com> wrote:
> 
> > On Mon, Oct 19, 2015 at 10:03 PM, Justin <davisjustin002 at gmail.com>
> > wrote:
> > > According to a top secret NSA document, which you can view online:
> > > Tor is the king of high secure, low latency anonymity.  No
> > > contender
> > awaits the throne.
> >
> > The document does not say that.
> > Depending on your threat model and needed feature set
> > Tor may be good, not good enough, or a failure.
> > Plenty of room for competition and evaluation.
> > And many contenders in the fields of anonymous transport,
> > messaging, storage and so on both exist and are in development.
> >
> >
> > https://edwardsnowden.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/10/tor-stinks-presentation.pdf
> >
> > Also, trim to relavance and quit top posting.
> > --
> > tor-talk mailing list - tor-talk at lists.torproject.org
> > To unsubscribe or change other settings go to
> > https://lists.torproject.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/tor-talk
> >




From juan.g71 at gmail.com  Tue Oct 20 00:51:55 2015
From: juan.g71 at gmail.com (Juan)
Date: Tue, 20 Oct 2015 04:51:55 -0300
Subject: [tor-talk] Tor
In-Reply-To: <CADop2NEHHJ+2B0e8L6Xj+hwBq3_iUhL0h2GOJnSAJbwqhvh7hQ@mail.gmail.com>
References: <561ea5d9.e3568c0a.a5f46.32ed@mx.google.com>
 <5622c66a.f01b8c0a.9f4ba.3310@mx.google.com>
 <caps8srk6n8sx0dvckeke_qu9kwkdh8avpgyjuyfs7scryh3umw@mail.gmail.com>
 <20151017215951.71f8a907@emailcontrol.org>
 <561e69bf.70201@gmail.com>
 <7037A695606.00000209beatthebastards@inbox.com>
 <5622d435.83218c0a.d4e45.0f1c@mx.google.com>
 <56234309.20605@veloc1ty.de>
 <CADop2NG8TruMY8+gi2VXnuXrPNgo9+vXS3SNOgA+jDMw9XZh6Q@mail.gmail.com>
 <5623A9CF.7030908@foofus.com>
 <20151019222206.22651afe@emailcontrol.org>
 <56258812.03c98c0a.a3d9c.0c5b@mx.google.com>
 <3069EA29-7494-4684-9BC2-3913EB330000@gmail.com>
 <CAD2Ti2_fyqyJY10DCrSzj9oceKD3Q7wHkp-Z03XVkasU2_vZow@mail.gmail.com>
 <CADop2NEHHJ+2B0e8L6Xj+hwBq3_iUhL0h2GOJnSAJbwqhvh7hQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <5625f130.0b1d8c0a.72c60.2e1b@mx.google.com>


 > https://edwardsnowden.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/10/tor-stinks-presentation.pdf



	BY THE WAY, what kind of retard can take the above
	'presentation' seriously ?!

	"use cookies to identify tor users when they are not using tor" 

	what !? the cookie monster? 


	"How does tor handle dns requests? Are dns requests goin
	through tor? --- current : still investigating". 

	So, that's allegedly a 'top secret' nsa document dated june
	2012 showing that the top master hackers don't even know the
	basics of the protocol? Please.

	"what do we know about hidden services? current : no effort by
	nsa" 

	Sure. None. Nada. Nothing.

	"can we exploit nodes. probably not. legal and technical
	challenges". 

	... Well, boys nothing to see here. The government is completly
	inept AND, of course, they 'respect the law'. Whatever that is. 


	Somebody was talking about moles? 






From jya at pipeline.com  Tue Oct 20 03:36:23 2015
From: jya at pipeline.com (John Young)
Date: Tue, 20 Oct 2015 06:36:23 -0400
Subject: WikiLeaks of "spying related" to its Cryptome search is click
  bait
Message-ID: <E1ZoUGt-0007ui-MG@elasmtp-mealy.atl.sa.earthlink.net>

Caution: WikiLeaks of "spying related" to its Cryptome search is click bait
to garner user data. No salute for misleading hype. 





From themikebest at gmail.com  Tue Oct 20 06:11:47 2015
From: themikebest at gmail.com (Michael Best)
Date: Tue, 20 Oct 2015 09:11:47 -0400
Subject: Wikileaks Cryptome search/files
Message-ID: <CANFTA08Az4Vdgu1mnc6Dtrs8sv+XTCBqw9euBhkPJ-8RH=AyQw@mail.gmail.com>

While examining the cryptome.wikileaks.org, I took a look at their version
of the donations page <https://cryptome.wikileaks.org/donations.htm> and
noticed that it seems to come from the June 2, 2014 release* which was
released via TOR and torrents over a year ago.

*Cryptome Archive USB.* The USB will contain the Cryptome archive of over
> 71,500 files for the period from June 1996 to 2 June 2014. Donation of $100
> is requested. The USB will be shipped worldwide. Email a shipping address
> to cryptome[at]earthlink.net.


It also references Cryptome's old kickstarter.

Does this mean that Wikileaks is hosting some of the files (older than June
2, 2014?) and using a redirect for newer files?

*The awstats which were included in that release don't show up in the
search through Wikileaks, but interestingly a few now deleted tweets from
Cryptome do. They may be storing some of the tweets.
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From Rayzer at riseup.net  Tue Oct 20 10:11:27 2015
From: Rayzer at riseup.net (Razer)
Date: Tue, 20 Oct 2015 10:11:27 -0700
Subject: Facebook admits obvious, Claims miraculous knowledge of States
 G-Men
In-Reply-To: <CAD2Ti29Sr+OQdVXHeFOyrskzOg4gh_3LA6w0Ebrz=bcMhXzv-A@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAD2Ti29Sr+OQdVXHeFOyrskzOg4gh_3LA6w0Ebrz=bcMhXzv-A@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <562675BF.1020008@riseup.net>

Facebook KNOWS if you've been bad or good, and it NEVER forgets:






Just in case the list server strips the image...
http://auntieimperial.tumblr.com/post/131559420454


On 10/19/2015 04:01 PM, grarpamp wrote:
> Starting today, we will notify you if we believe your account has been
> targeted or compromised by an attacker suspected of working on behalf
> of a nation-state. ...
> To protect the integrity of our methods and processes, we often won't
> be able to explain how we attribute certain attacks to suspected
> attackers.
>
> https://www.facebook.com/notes/facebook-security/notifications-for-targeted-attacks/10153092994615766
>


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From grarpamp at gmail.com  Tue Oct 20 08:54:08 2015
From: grarpamp at gmail.com (grarpamp)
Date: Tue, 20 Oct 2015 11:54:08 -0400
Subject: Snowden on the Twitters
In-Reply-To: <20151018102410.GB2504@sivokote.iziade.m$>
References: <CAO7N=i0=DfyEwZarA0P51iSPrdMm_eTo-xGmTRCQR7M27W_uxQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <20151018102410.GB2504@sivokote.iziade.m$>
Message-ID: <CAD2Ti2-8mujgpqsxV2wHH+HGT8VDfEvZk0Yyg82isgDfMryCuA@mail.gmail.com>

On Sun, Oct 18, 2015 at 6:24 AM, Georgi Guninski <guninski at guninski.com> wrote:
> First you lose 1% freedom, then 2%, then 4%, then 8% ... and after
> 99-128% you are a product to be sold.

Other way around, you're sold at the very first and most basic dataset...
name, dob, id, address, phone, govt picture. That's trivial %.
Add in credit / purchase.
Add in pictures, email, social.
Add in anything juicy like private associations, real thoughts,
offline bits, etc.
Deeper the DB's go, more people are silently calculated upon, twisted
and used en masse from above.
DB's do not exist to serve you, they serve the Corp and the State and
others against you, remove them.




From coderman at gmail.com  Tue Oct 20 12:50:28 2015
From: coderman at gmail.com (coderman)
Date: Tue, 20 Oct 2015 12:50:28 -0700
Subject: [tor-talk] Tor
In-Reply-To: <56269403.48908c0a.c747b.ffff9447@mx.google.com>
References: <561ea5d9.e3568c0a.a5f46.32ed@mx.google.com>
 <5622c66a.f01b8c0a.9f4ba.3310@mx.google.com>
 <caps8srk6n8sx0dvckeke_qu9kwkdh8avpgyjuyfs7scryh3umw@mail.gmail.com>
 <20151017215951.71f8a907@emailcontrol.org>
 <561e69bf.70201@gmail.com>
 <7037A695606.00000209beatthebastards@inbox.com>
 <5622d435.83218c0a.d4e45.0f1c@mx.google.com>
 <56234309.20605@veloc1ty.de>
 <CADop2NG8TruMY8+gi2VXnuXrPNgo9+vXS3SNOgA+jDMw9XZh6Q@mail.gmail.com>
 <5623A9CF.7030908@foofus.com>
 <20151019222206.22651afe@emailcontrol.org>
 <56258812.03c98c0a.a3d9c.0c5b@mx.google.com>
 <3069EA29-7494-4684-9BC2-3913EB330000@gmail.com>
 <CAD2Ti2_fyqyJY10DCrSzj9oceKD3Q7wHkp-Z03XVkasU2_vZow@mail.gmail.com>
 <CADop2NEHHJ+2B0e8L6Xj+hwBq3_iUhL0h2GOJnSAJbwqhvh7hQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <5625f130.0b1d8c0a.72c60.2e1b@mx.google.com>
 <CAJVRA1Tj5f5EKLb=nauDop+3DQ=7tVNBD770+WoErtAV7u1hLg@mail.gmail.com>
 <56269403.48908c0a.c747b.ffff9447@mx.google.com>
Message-ID: <CAJVRA1S6RWz6HaPcZyJMYnf=qmptZfjn3aw_TS+hdDb1w3YC-w@mail.gmail.com>

On 10/20/15, Juan <juan.g71 at gmail.com> wrote:
> ...
> 	Yes. And I'm doing the teaching.

citation needed!



> 	I know. But that's not how the majority of people use tor. So
> 	your remark is pretty much irrelevant.

if only one target uses an insecure configuration, it is still
potentially useful, especially given the ease of proxy bypass
techniques.

and for watering hole attacks, anything larger than zero hits is a win :)

clearly relevant.



> 	Same as above. Your comment is irrelevant and looks like an
> 	attempt at obfuscation.

not obfuscation; recognition of the defender's disadvantage.

as attacker (NSA) any vulnerability is relevant and potentially actionable.



> 	So, let me reiterate : whoever wrote that is candidly admitting
> 	that he doesn't know what he's talking about. Which doesn't
> 	makes sense considering the alleged nature and source of the
> 	document.

it does; competence is not universally high and evenly distributed in
intelligence organizations.

the most technically accurate and detailed and informed information is
also the most sensitive, sadly. thus until ECI compartments get
spilled moving beyond the executive summary level presentations
difficult.



> 	So? There are only a handful of relays as opposed to clients
> 	so the payoff for attacking them is way bigger.

there are techniques for finding bugs in rich attack surface like the
whole of Tor Browser, Tor, Tor Launcher, OS integration of same which
can grant exploit developers a reasonable confidence of finding
exploitable holes.

in a minimal, hardened Tor relay configuration these same techniques
may never find an exploitable vulnerability. it is another order of
magnitude harder, and exploits here require leveling with novel
attacks or techniques, typically.



> 	Regardless, your comment is, again, pretty much meaningless. The
> 	point is that the claims that they can't exploit relays because
> 	of technical and LEGAL reasons is pure undilluted bullshit.

exploiting foreign servers? sure; but highly sensitive. e.g. TAO CNE.

legal hacks of domestic servers - FISA court would have to approve?

both of these are legitimate restraints, though we may argue about
their effectiveness.


over to Juan for retort,
 preferably with more substance to justify opinions this time :)




From grarpamp at gmail.com  Tue Oct 20 10:36:38 2015
From: grarpamp at gmail.com (grarpamp)
Date: Tue, 20 Oct 2015 13:36:38 -0400
Subject: Facebook admits obvious,
 Claims miraculous knowledge of States G-Men
In-Reply-To: <CAHKdp-mi0UsmuPL+LwwHXvZNsatqe79GEsbSDzrXbWhFSynbQQ@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAD2Ti29Sr+OQdVXHeFOyrskzOg4gh_3LA6w0Ebrz=bcMhXzv-A@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAOsGNSRNQoEXKEVJTbXnfv-yq2ZbYdfShhLnYxXs9ECEumK3HQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAHKdp-=E4N1HJZjSzR2jaJU0aivN+v-g7j=a8eOXPDF6m2UMkA@mail.gmail.com>
 <56258d76.08618c0a.5110e.0dcf@mx.google.com>
 <CAHKdp-mi0UsmuPL+LwwHXvZNsatqe79GEsbSDzrXbWhFSynbQQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAD2Ti29EVLcRht=fYqrrZQPSXoHHzHU8jFbRryS_PKxZmi+v_A@mail.gmail.com>

On Tue, Oct 20, 2015 at 1:23 PM, Sean Lynch <seanl at literati.org> wrote:
> AIUI state-sponsored actors have primarily been targeting people from their
> own state.
>
> coming from the US, and very little from Europe.

The US, and even Euro, belong in the same list of states, agencies,
and rogues targeting their own users.
Not to mention individial attackers for whatever their reasons are.




From coderman at gmail.com  Tue Oct 20 15:41:43 2015
From: coderman at gmail.com (coderman)
Date: Tue, 20 Oct 2015 15:41:43 -0700
Subject: [tor-dev] Effect of padding on end to end correlation false
 positive rate
In-Reply-To: <CAD2Ti2_1qj1nEPVcTnD1u3d6Ftuo=U2kbrmiNyAXd=HFmQBdwg@mail.gmail.com>
References: <56214E72.5050508@sky-ip.org>
 <CAD2Ti2_1qj1nEPVcTnD1u3d6Ftuo=U2kbrmiNyAXd=HFmQBdwg@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAJVRA1QTTadN2r2h4F0urHe45Z7uE+Y8SC2-TMi+tWB3N-sPEA@mail.gmail.com>

On 10/20/15, grarpamp <grarpamp at gmail.com> wrote:...
>> [1]: https://blog.torproject.org/blog/traffic-correlation-using-netflows
>
> My thought was solely restricted to analysis of network
> traffic by *passive* adversary... not involving any collusion
> by actives over circuits they can see inside or pump within
> any given onion layer, though clocked and checked network
> fill by all proper nodes would inhibit pumping by actives.
> I talked on list with someone at briarproject and wherever
> else on idea of filling the network with traffic vs the passives.
> Apologize for not making time to review Mike's proposal
> or develop further talk yet. Someone will review / integrate
> fill padding of network with regard anonbib, Mike's, etc I'm sure,
> as it is clearly (to me at least) a weakness of non-filled
> non-store-and-forward networks vs the passives which we
> all know and love.


note that userspace stacks with multi-homed mobility-capable IPv6
ORCHIDv2 addresses can maintain logical connectivity over a set of
paths/circuits such that active attacks reduce capacity but are unable
to execute the easy confirmation and tagging attacks available in a
stream oriented implementation with TCP links over IPv4. in theory...
;P

best regards,




From juan.g71 at gmail.com  Tue Oct 20 12:26:45 2015
From: juan.g71 at gmail.com (Juan)
Date: Tue, 20 Oct 2015 16:26:45 -0300
Subject: [tor-talk] Tor
In-Reply-To: <CAJVRA1Tj5f5EKLb=nauDop+3DQ=7tVNBD770+WoErtAV7u1hLg@mail.gmail.com>
References: <561ea5d9.e3568c0a.a5f46.32ed@mx.google.com>
 <5622c66a.f01b8c0a.9f4ba.3310@mx.google.com>
 <caps8srk6n8sx0dvckeke_qu9kwkdh8avpgyjuyfs7scryh3umw@mail.gmail.com>
 <20151017215951.71f8a907@emailcontrol.org>
 <561e69bf.70201@gmail.com>
 <7037A695606.00000209beatthebastards@inbox.com>
 <5622d435.83218c0a.d4e45.0f1c@mx.google.com>
 <56234309.20605@veloc1ty.de>
 <CADop2NG8TruMY8+gi2VXnuXrPNgo9+vXS3SNOgA+jDMw9XZh6Q@mail.gmail.com>
 <5623A9CF.7030908@foofus.com>
 <20151019222206.22651afe@emailcontrol.org>
 <56258812.03c98c0a.a3d9c.0c5b@mx.google.com>
 <3069EA29-7494-4684-9BC2-3913EB330000@gmail.com>
 <CAD2Ti2_fyqyJY10DCrSzj9oceKD3Q7wHkp-Z03XVkasU2_vZow@mail.gmail.com>
 <CADop2NEHHJ+2B0e8L6Xj+hwBq3_iUhL0h2GOJnSAJbwqhvh7hQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <5625f130.0b1d8c0a.72c60.2e1b@mx.google.com>
 <CAJVRA1Tj5f5EKLb=nauDop+3DQ=7tVNBD770+WoErtAV7u1hLg@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <56269403.48908c0a.c747b.ffff9447@mx.google.com>

On Tue, 20 Oct 2015 01:58:18 -0700
coderman <coderman at gmail.com> wrote:

> On 10/20/15, Juan <juan.g71 at gmail.com> wrote:
> > ...
> > 	BY THE WAY, what kind of retard can take the above
> > 	'presentation' seriously ?!
> 
> class time for Juan!


	Yes. And I'm doing the teaching. 


> 
> 
> 
> > 	"use cookies to identify tor users when they are not using
> > tor" what !? the cookie monster?
> 
> See "Transparent Proxy" mode, un-approved third-party browser
> configurations using Tor as SOCKS Proxy without Tor Browser
> protections, etc...


	I know. But that's not how the majority of people use tor. So
	your remark is pretty much irrelevant. 

	Were you trying to teach me something? 



> 
> 
> 
> > 	"How does tor handle dns requests? Are dns requests goin
> > 	through tor? --- current : still investigating".
> 
> this is the SOCKS4 vs. SOCKS4a vs. SOCKS5 w/named connect, question.
> 
> if you are using a non-standard config leaking DNS, you're also
> vulnerable to DNS poisoning for CNE or de-anon.


	Same as above. Your comment is irrelevant and looks like an
	attempt at obfuscation. 

	So, let me reiterate : whoever wrote that is candidly admitting
	that he doesn't know what he's talking about. Which doesn't
	makes sense considering the alleged nature and source of the
	document. 


> 
> 
> > 	"what do we know about hidden services? current : no effort
> > by nsa"
> >
> > 	Sure. None. Nada. Nothing.
> 
> NSA goes where targets are. bet this is no longer true :P


	bla bla bla . Oh and it wasn't true in 2012 either.



> 
> 
> 
> > 	"can we exploit nodes. probably not. legal and technical
> > 	challenges".
> >
> > 	... Well, boys nothing to see here. The government is
> > completly inept AND, of course, they 'respect the law'. Whatever
> > that is.
> 
> relays are the most hardened configuration of Tor. 
> if Tor Browser
> attack surface is one end of spectrum of vuln, Tor the implementation
> on a dedicated server is quite the opposite.


	So? There are only a handful of relays as opposed to clients
	so the payoff for attacking them is way bigger. 

	Regardless, your comment is, again, pretty much meaningless. The
	point is that the claims that they can't exploit relays because
	of technical and LEGAL reasons is pure undilluted bullshit.


> 
> 
> 
> > 	Somebody was talking about moles?
> 
> just diggin' dirt...




From juan.g71 at gmail.com  Tue Oct 20 12:41:31 2015
From: juan.g71 at gmail.com (Juan)
Date: Tue, 20 Oct 2015 16:41:31 -0300
Subject: Facebook admits obvious, Claims miraculous knowledge of States
 G-Men
In-Reply-To: <CAHKdp-mi0UsmuPL+LwwHXvZNsatqe79GEsbSDzrXbWhFSynbQQ@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAD2Ti29Sr+OQdVXHeFOyrskzOg4gh_3LA6w0Ebrz=bcMhXzv-A@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAOsGNSRNQoEXKEVJTbXnfv-yq2ZbYdfShhLnYxXs9ECEumK3HQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAHKdp-=E4N1HJZjSzR2jaJU0aivN+v-g7j=a8eOXPDF6m2UMkA@mail.gmail.com>
 <56258d76.08618c0a.5110e.0dcf@mx.google.com>
 <CAHKdp-mi0UsmuPL+LwwHXvZNsatqe79GEsbSDzrXbWhFSynbQQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <56269779.91938c0a.70b27.ffff9585@mx.google.com>

On Tue, 20 Oct 2015 17:23:10 +0000
Sean Lynch <seanl at literati.org> wrote:

> On Mon, Oct 19, 2015 at 5:45 PM Juan <juan.g71 at gmail.com> wrote:
> 
> >         Wait. I missed the point at first.
> >
> 
> Really? When have you stopped missing the point?


	Come on Sean. Your previous comments about bitcoin were
	pretty mediocre and now your laughable facebook boot-licking
	nicely completes your profile. 

	
> 
> 
> >         Let me translate : what facebook will do is tell its
> >         jew-christian american 'users' and the european pets
> > (lapdogs), that evil governments like the arab, russian and chinese
> >         governments are 'attacking' their accounts.
> >
> >
> >         Imagine just how good people will feel about facebook now
> > that facebook protects them from hayrab terrists!!
> >
> >
> AIUI state-sponsored actors have primarily been targeting people from
> their own state, so to the extent "hayrab" governments have been
> going after accounts, it's been other "hayrabs" trying to free their
> own people. 

	Might you be parroting google-cia-facebook-nsa propaganda? Oh
	no, you'd never do that....


> And the Chinese and Russians figure largely as well,
> again primarily going after their own people. Last I checked the
> Russians were themselves Christian 


	Last I checked the russians use vkontakte. 


> and Jewish and are probably going
> after the accounts of Muslims quite frequently.


	So you're saying fukerberg is going to protect the hayrabs form
	his own nazi-amercunt-zionist goverment? You should stop
	watching hollywood movies Sean. 


> 
> A large fraction of Facebook's growth is coming from Indonesia, which
> is a Muslim country. None of it is coming from the US, and very
> little from Europe. You really need to get your facts straight.
	

	Poor little Sean. I said nothing about 'growth'. That's a
	distraction you just introduced.

	To sum up : The evil foreign (non 'american') governments
	attack facebook users. And now, CAPTAIN FACEBOOK will protect
	them. 
	
	I hope you enjoy your	six packs of kool aid. 


 










From grarpamp at gmail.com  Tue Oct 20 13:58:49 2015
From: grarpamp at gmail.com (grarpamp)
Date: Tue, 20 Oct 2015 16:58:49 -0400
Subject: [tor-dev] Effect of padding on end to end correlation false
 positive rate
In-Reply-To: <56214E72.5050508@sky-ip.org>
References: <56214E72.5050508@sky-ip.org>
Message-ID: <CAD2Ti2_1qj1nEPVcTnD1u3d6Ftuo=U2kbrmiNyAXd=HFmQBdwg@mail.gmail.com>

On Fri, Oct 16, 2015 at 3:22 PM, s7r <s7r at sky-ip.org> wrote:
> I am describing something like a Sybil attack where the adversary runs
> relays, gets lucky and is selected in a certain position of a certain

> Does this change with padding? If yes, how?
> [1]: https://blog.torproject.org/blog/traffic-correlation-using-netflows

My thought was solely restricted to analysis of network
traffic by *passive* adversary... not involving any collusion
by actives over circuits they can see inside or pump within
any given onion layer, though clocked and checked network
fill by all proper nodes would inhibit pumping by actives.
I talked on list with someone at briarproject and wherever
else on idea of filling the network with traffic vs the passives.
Apologize for not making time to review Mike's proposal
or develop further talk yet. Someone will review / integrate
fill padding of network with regard anonbib, Mike's, etc I'm sure,
as it is clearly (to me at least) a weakness of non-filled
non-store-and-forward networks vs the passives which we
all know and love.




From grarpamp at gmail.com  Tue Oct 20 14:19:41 2015
From: grarpamp at gmail.com (grarpamp)
Date: Tue, 20 Oct 2015 17:19:41 -0400
Subject: USA government debt ceiling
In-Reply-To: <CAHWD2rJevZKwSCs0YWK-rcKPG9Utcfc93knmodQbEtgnBfx0Sw@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAOsGNSSpW6H5POz=xF5NpNc6Xvie_XoTStKtgDnThrE5Ys9Uqw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAOsGNSR9tXKM9+nPvJgT_7qESJPSJ9JuXWyeNFqBoPUCFEY3Bg@mail.gmail.com>
 <20151005124251.GC2489@sivokote.iziade.m$>
 <CAOsGNSSvyQc8LGkoYMVWpqXB0QCj=gOeoXrPXL7Max=Wtu5NaQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <20151011070745.GA2610@sivokote.iziade.m$>
 <CAHWD2rKMAE7tH+t4B-P9XEPmTSRsuqEmQ8NVQKOFi2ww3uh_CQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAOsGNSTiRkhAP1z89uXUVOidUR2U3wNaFqZgiWZsCZxT=bi9KA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAHWD2rJevZKwSCs0YWK-rcKPG9Utcfc93knmodQbEtgnBfx0Sw@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAD2Ti28YN1E7KmajRVxkf9Y+jk1O829pSPO6ZvZcDHgwW5B+Xg@mail.gmail.com>

On Wed, Oct 14, 2015 at 7:52 AM, Lodewijk andré de la porte
<l at odewijk.nl> wrote:
> If we're going to
> plan our economy together, collaboratively, then why do we need to be so
> sneaky about it?

This is interesting in that how often do you see mutual debt cancellation?
Where N number of countries / entities get together, disclose evaluate their
mutual debt and cancel it such that they rebase in one net direction.
I owe you 10, you owe me 5, therefore I owe you 5 and you owe me zero.
There are sneaky games behind refusing to even create a table
to talk about mutual cancel, in games and refusal to share real data
is where instability arises. Everybody is fucking everybody on whether
house of cards is made of brick or cardboard. Not good. Suspect
most the entities that can't balance their budget or books and haven't
done so publicly in long time.




From seanl at literati.org  Tue Oct 20 10:23:10 2015
From: seanl at literati.org (Sean Lynch)
Date: Tue, 20 Oct 2015 17:23:10 +0000
Subject: Facebook admits obvious,
 Claims miraculous knowledge of States G-Men
In-Reply-To: <56258d76.08618c0a.5110e.0dcf@mx.google.com>
References: <CAD2Ti29Sr+OQdVXHeFOyrskzOg4gh_3LA6w0Ebrz=bcMhXzv-A@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAOsGNSRNQoEXKEVJTbXnfv-yq2ZbYdfShhLnYxXs9ECEumK3HQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAHKdp-=E4N1HJZjSzR2jaJU0aivN+v-g7j=a8eOXPDF6m2UMkA@mail.gmail.com>
 <56258d76.08618c0a.5110e.0dcf@mx.google.com>
Message-ID: <CAHKdp-mi0UsmuPL+LwwHXvZNsatqe79GEsbSDzrXbWhFSynbQQ@mail.gmail.com>

On Mon, Oct 19, 2015 at 5:45 PM Juan <juan.g71 at gmail.com> wrote:

>         Wait. I missed the point at first.
>

Really? When have you stopped missing the point?


>         Let me translate : what facebook will do is tell its
>         jew-christian american 'users' and the european pets (lapdogs),
>         that evil governments like the arab, russian and chinese
>         governments are 'attacking' their accounts.
>
>
>         Imagine just how good people will feel about facebook now that
>         facebook protects them from hayrab terrists!!
>
>
AIUI state-sponsored actors have primarily been targeting people from their
own state, so to the extent "hayrab" governments have been going after
accounts, it's been other "hayrabs" trying to free their own people. And
the Chinese and Russians figure largely as well, again primarily going
after their own people. Last I checked the Russians were themselves
Christian and Jewish and are probably going after the accounts of Muslims
quite frequently.

A large fraction of Facebook's growth is coming from Indonesia, which is a
Muslim country. None of it is coming from the US, and very little from
Europe. You really need to get your facts straight.
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From grarpamp at gmail.com  Tue Oct 20 14:38:39 2015
From: grarpamp at gmail.com (grarpamp)
Date: Tue, 20 Oct 2015 17:38:39 -0400
Subject: USA government debt ceiling
In-Reply-To: <CAGRDzQUBoV9qMUf845rHztVhavo9FWkPP=qpY4T_C-P9RX=T8A@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAOsGNSSpW6H5POz=xF5NpNc6Xvie_XoTStKtgDnThrE5Ys9Uqw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAOsGNSR9tXKM9+nPvJgT_7qESJPSJ9JuXWyeNFqBoPUCFEY3Bg@mail.gmail.com>
 <20151005124251.GC2489@sivokote.iziade.m$>
 <CAOsGNSSvyQc8LGkoYMVWpqXB0QCj=gOeoXrPXL7Max=Wtu5NaQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <20151011070745.GA2610@sivokote.iziade.m$>
 <CAHWD2rKMAE7tH+t4B-P9XEPmTSRsuqEmQ8NVQKOFi2ww3uh_CQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <20151014122254.GC2599@sivokote.iziade.m$>
 <CAGRDzQUBoV9qMUf845rHztVhavo9FWkPP=qpY4T_C-P9RX=T8A@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAD2Ti28cyRmHM-AJ=hHKRge-1UrK+ntSzL23nJ26UZr1sWNssA@mail.gmail.com>

On Wed, Oct 14, 2015 at 10:41 AM, Cari Machet <carimachet at gmail.com> wrote:
> Presently the chinese see the futility of the system and are shifting i cant
> remember into what exactly

Bitcoin. When all your base are based on fiat, you must shift to
something real and not readily printable. Gold / silver /
commodities are decent but have physical and time transacting
issues (whcih can be good too).

https://www.reddit.com/r/Bitcoin/search?q=china&sort=new&restrict_sr=on&t=all

This is why when the post wwii "leader" of the free world
shifted from real to fiat it's a big and not always so good deal.
Now that people have decades of settling time graphs to look
at, maybe they being to wonder.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Money_supply
https://research.stlouisfed.org/fred2/graph/?s[1][id]=M1
https://www.google.com/search?q=money+supply

On and on...




From juan.g71 at gmail.com  Tue Oct 20 13:42:10 2015
From: juan.g71 at gmail.com (Juan)
Date: Tue, 20 Oct 2015 17:42:10 -0300
Subject: [tor-talk] Tor
In-Reply-To: <CAJVRA1S6RWz6HaPcZyJMYnf=qmptZfjn3aw_TS+hdDb1w3YC-w@mail.gmail.com>
References: <561ea5d9.e3568c0a.a5f46.32ed@mx.google.com>
 <5622c66a.f01b8c0a.9f4ba.3310@mx.google.com>
 <caps8srk6n8sx0dvckeke_qu9kwkdh8avpgyjuyfs7scryh3umw@mail.gmail.com>
 <20151017215951.71f8a907@emailcontrol.org>
 <561e69bf.70201@gmail.com>
 <7037A695606.00000209beatthebastards@inbox.com>
 <5622d435.83218c0a.d4e45.0f1c@mx.google.com>
 <56234309.20605@veloc1ty.de>
 <CADop2NG8TruMY8+gi2VXnuXrPNgo9+vXS3SNOgA+jDMw9XZh6Q@mail.gmail.com>
 <5623A9CF.7030908@foofus.com>
 <20151019222206.22651afe@emailcontrol.org>
 <56258812.03c98c0a.a3d9c.0c5b@mx.google.com>
 <3069EA29-7494-4684-9BC2-3913EB330000@gmail.com>
 <CAD2Ti2_fyqyJY10DCrSzj9oceKD3Q7wHkp-Z03XVkasU2_vZow@mail.gmail.com>
 <CADop2NEHHJ+2B0e8L6Xj+hwBq3_iUhL0h2GOJnSAJbwqhvh7hQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <5625f130.0b1d8c0a.72c60.2e1b@mx.google.com>
 <CAJVRA1Tj5f5EKLb=nauDop+3DQ=7tVNBD770+WoErtAV7u1hLg@mail.gmail.com>
 <56269403.48908c0a.c747b.ffff9447@mx.google.com>
 <CAJVRA1S6RWz6HaPcZyJMYnf=qmptZfjn3aw_TS+hdDb1w3YC-w@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <5626a5b1.2a568c0a.29d73.ffff9d92@mx.google.com>

On Tue, 20 Oct 2015 12:50:28 -0700
coderman <coderman at gmail.com> wrote:

> On 10/20/15, Juan <juan.g71 at gmail.com> wrote:
> > ...
> > 	Yes. And I'm doing the teaching.
> 
> citation needed!


	It's obvious from looking at the whole conversation. 



> 
> 
> 
> > 	I know. But that's not how the majority of people use tor.
> > So your remark is pretty much irrelevant.
> 
> if only one target uses an insecure configuration, it is still
> potentially useful, especially given the ease of proxy bypass
> techniques.
> 
> and for watering hole attacks, anything larger than zero hits is a
> win :)
> 
> clearly relevant.


	Clearly irrelevant. And your irrelevant comments don't change
	the nature of the slides. 

	
> 
> 
> 
> > 	Same as above. Your comment is irrelevant and looks like an
> > 	attempt at obfuscation.
> 
> not obfuscation; recognition of the defender's disadvantage.
> 
> as attacker (NSA) any vulnerability is relevant and potentially
> actionable.

	
	 1 + 1 = 2

	the sky is blue (depending on time and other conditions)

	cows give milk
	
	any more irrelevant bullshit you'd like to state? 


 
> 
> 
> > 	So, let me reiterate : whoever wrote that is candidly
> > admitting that he doesn't know what he's talking about. Which
> > doesn't makes sense considering the alleged nature and source of the
> > 	document.
> 
> it does; competence is not universally high and evenly distributed in
> intelligence organizations.


	It doesn't makes sense. Only retards can believe that such a
	bunch of 'slides' really reflects what the nsa and co. know
	about tor. 

	More than likely those slides were made as some kind of exercise
	by some of the lowest ranking gov't parasite. The slides are
	nothing but a useless draft.

	Did I mention codermand dear that the author doesn't even know
	how tor dns resolution works? 'currently' he was
	'still investigating'...


> 
> the most technically accurate and detailed and informed information is
> also the most sensitive, sadly. thus until ECI compartments get
> spilled moving beyond the executive summary level presentations
> difficult.


	So, can I translate your usual twisted language into "OK I
	finally admit the slides are bullshit" ? 


> 
> 
> 
> > 	So? There are only a handful of relays as opposed to clients
> > 	so the payoff for attacking them is way bigger.
> 
> there are techniques for finding bugs in rich attack surface like the
> whole of Tor Browser, Tor, Tor Launcher, OS integration of same which
> can grant exploit developers a reasonable confidence of finding
> exploitable holes.
> 
> in a minimal, hardened Tor relay configuration these same techniques
> may never find an exploitable vulnerability. it is another order of
> magnitude harder, and exploits here require leveling with novel
> attacks or techniques, typically.


	bla bla bla 

	yes, it's another order of magnitude and so is the magnitude of
	the payoff. I can keep repeating any point you ignore.

	But did I mention that technical details are not really the
	point anyway? 


 
> 
> > 	Regardless, your comment is, again, pretty much
> > meaningless. The point is that the claims that they can't exploit
> > relays because of technical and LEGAL reasons is pure undilluted
> > bullshit.
> 
> exploiting foreign servers? sure; but highly sensitive. e.g. TAO CNE.
> 
> legal hacks of domestic servers - FISA court would have to approve?


	lol - and now you admit you are just trolling
 


> 
> both of these are legitimate restraints, though we may argue about
> their effectiveness.
> 
> 
> over to Juan for retort,
>  preferably with more substance to justify opinions this time :)


	"FISA court would have to approve?" 



	





















From mirimir at riseup.net  Tue Oct 20 18:06:42 2015
From: mirimir at riseup.net (Mirimir)
Date: Tue, 20 Oct 2015 19:06:42 -0600
Subject: [tor-dev] Effect of padding on end to end correlation false
 positive rate
In-Reply-To: <5626c839.9c16370a.82fa3.ffffb50e@mx.google.com>
References: <56214E72.5050508@sky-ip.org>
 <CAD2Ti2_1qj1nEPVcTnD1u3d6Ftuo=U2kbrmiNyAXd=HFmQBdwg@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAJVRA1QTTadN2r2h4F0urHe45Z7uE+Y8SC2-TMi+tWB3N-sPEA@mail.gmail.com>
 <5626c839.9c16370a.82fa3.ffffb50e@mx.google.com>
Message-ID: <5626E522.2080702@riseup.net>

On 10/20/2015 05:09 PM, Juan wrote:
> On Tue, 20 Oct 2015 15:41:43 -0700
> coderman <coderman at gmail.com> wrote:
> 
>> On 10/20/15, grarpamp <grarpamp at gmail.com> wrote:...
> 
> 
> 	I've been meaning to ask this for a while...coderman and
> 	grarpamp are the same person? (I'm assuming the answer is 'yes')

Hard to say. But I doubt it.

On the other hand, you do come off as a sock ;)




From juan.g71 at gmail.com  Tue Oct 20 15:29:22 2015
From: juan.g71 at gmail.com (Juan)
Date: Tue, 20 Oct 2015 19:29:22 -0300
Subject: USA government debt ceiling
In-Reply-To: <CAD2Ti28cyRmHM-AJ=hHKRge-1UrK+ntSzL23nJ26UZr1sWNssA@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAOsGNSSpW6H5POz=xF5NpNc6Xvie_XoTStKtgDnThrE5Ys9Uqw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAOsGNSR9tXKM9+nPvJgT_7qESJPSJ9JuXWyeNFqBoPUCFEY3Bg@mail.gmail.com>
 <20151005124251.GC2489@sivokote.iziade.m$>
 <CAOsGNSSvyQc8LGkoYMVWpqXB0QCj=gOeoXrPXL7Max=Wtu5NaQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <20151011070745.GA2610@sivokote.iziade.m$>
 <CAHWD2rKMAE7tH+t4B-P9XEPmTSRsuqEmQ8NVQKOFi2ww3uh_CQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <20151014122254.GC2599@sivokote.iziade.m$>
 <CAGRDzQUBoV9qMUf845rHztVhavo9FWkPP=qpY4T_C-P9RX=T8A@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAD2Ti28cyRmHM-AJ=hHKRge-1UrK+ntSzL23nJ26UZr1sWNssA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <5626bed1.c91d8c0a.d971.ffffadad@mx.google.com>

On Tue, 20 Oct 2015 17:38:39 -0400
grarpamp <grarpamp at gmail.com> wrote:

> On Wed, Oct 14, 2015 at 10:41 AM, Cari Machet <carimachet at gmail.com>
> wrote:
> > Presently the chinese see the futility of the system and are
> > shifting i cant remember into what exactly
> 
> Bitcoin. 

	And your source is? 





From mirimir at riseup.net  Tue Oct 20 18:32:46 2015
From: mirimir at riseup.net (Mirimir)
Date: Tue, 20 Oct 2015 19:32:46 -0600
Subject: USA government debt ceiling
In-Reply-To: <5626bed1.c91d8c0a.d971.ffffadad@mx.google.com>
References: <CAOsGNSSpW6H5POz=xF5NpNc6Xvie_XoTStKtgDnThrE5Ys9Uqw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAOsGNSR9tXKM9+nPvJgT_7qESJPSJ9JuXWyeNFqBoPUCFEY3Bg@mail.gmail.com>
 <20151005124251.GC2489@sivokote.iziade.m$>
 <CAOsGNSSvyQc8LGkoYMVWpqXB0QCj=gOeoXrPXL7Max=Wtu5NaQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <20151011070745.GA2610@sivokote.iziade.m$>
 <CAHWD2rKMAE7tH+t4B-P9XEPmTSRsuqEmQ8NVQKOFi2ww3uh_CQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <20151014122254.GC2599@sivokote.iziade.m$>
 <CAGRDzQUBoV9qMUf845rHztVhavo9FWkPP=qpY4T_C-P9RX=T8A@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAD2Ti28cyRmHM-AJ=hHKRge-1UrK+ntSzL23nJ26UZr1sWNssA@mail.gmail.com>
 <5626bed1.c91d8c0a.d971.ffffadad@mx.google.com>
Message-ID: <5626EB3E.5040306@riseup.net>

On 10/20/2015 04:29 PM, Juan wrote:
> On Tue, 20 Oct 2015 17:38:39 -0400
> grarpamp <grarpamp at gmail.com> wrote:
> 
>> On Wed, Oct 14, 2015 at 10:41 AM, Cari Machet <carimachet at gmail.com>
>> wrote:
>>> Presently the chinese see the futility of the system and are
>>> shifting i cant remember into what exactly
>>
>> Bitcoin. 
> 
> 	And your source is? 

2011-12-28:
https://web.archive.org/web/20111228130809/http://bitcoincharts.com/charts/volumepie

2012-12-26:
https://web.archive.org/web/20121226054925/http://bitcoincharts.com/charts/volumepie

2013-07-09:
https://web.archive.org/web/20130709013421/http://bitcoincharts.com/charts/volumepie/

2013-09-09:
https://web.archive.org/web/20130909224220/http://bitcoincharts.com/charts/volumepie/

2013-10-14:
https://web.archive.org/web/20131014214310/http://bitcoincharts.com/charts/volumepie/

2013-11-10:
https://web.archive.org/web/20131110031355/http://bitcoincharts.com/charts/volumepie/

2013-12-04:
https://web.archive.org/web/20131204084008/http://www.bitcoincharts.com/charts/volumepie/

2014-12-23:
https://web.archive.org/web/20141223041208/http://bitcoincharts.com/charts/volumepie/

2015-10-20: https://www.bitcoincharts.com/charts/volumepie/




From mirimir at riseup.net  Tue Oct 20 18:55:02 2015
From: mirimir at riseup.net (Mirimir)
Date: Tue, 20 Oct 2015 19:55:02 -0600
Subject: [tor-dev] Effect of padding on end to end correlation false
 positive rate
In-Reply-To: <5626e866.8a278c0a.a9353.ffffc0cc@mx.google.com>
References: <56214E72.5050508@sky-ip.org>
 <CAD2Ti2_1qj1nEPVcTnD1u3d6Ftuo=U2kbrmiNyAXd=HFmQBdwg@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAJVRA1QTTadN2r2h4F0urHe45Z7uE+Y8SC2-TMi+tWB3N-sPEA@mail.gmail.com>
 <5626c839.9c16370a.82fa3.ffffb50e@mx.google.com>
 <5626E522.2080702@riseup.net>
 <5626e866.8a278c0a.a9353.ffffc0cc@mx.google.com>
Message-ID: <5626F076.9060700@riseup.net>

On 10/20/2015 07:26 PM, Juan wrote:
> On Tue, 20 Oct 2015 19:06:42 -0600
> Mirimir <mirimir at riseup.net> wrote:
> 
>> On 10/20/2015 05:09 PM, Juan wrote:
>>> On Tue, 20 Oct 2015 15:41:43 -0700
>>> coderman <coderman at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>> On 10/20/15, grarpamp <grarpamp at gmail.com> wrote:...
>>>
>>>
>>> 	I've been meaning to ask this for a while...coderman and
>>> 	grarpamp are the same person? (I'm assuming the answer is
>>> 'yes')
>>
>> Hard to say. But I doubt it.
> 
> 
> 	Really? Both use virtually the same robotic, military-like
> 	language, full of pseudo technical garbage.

That's true. But there are many militaries. And although much of their
technical allusion is over my head, what I do get makes sense.

>> On the other hand, you do come off as a sock ;)
> 
> 	Go figure. And I counted you as an ally of sorts. So tell
> 	me, whose 'sock'? 

I do consider you an ally, of a sort. And your perspective is valuable.
But your unremitting nihilism has been getting to me. And it smells like
sock to me.

In particular, I also have concerns and reservations about Tor. It's
true that the US military funded its development. And it's true that
they probably still use it.

But maybe think of it this way: we have military-grade anonymity. And in
any case, as far as I know, it's the best anonymity tool we've got.




From juan.g71 at gmail.com  Tue Oct 20 16:09:30 2015
From: juan.g71 at gmail.com (Juan)
Date: Tue, 20 Oct 2015 20:09:30 -0300
Subject: [tor-dev] Effect of padding on end to end correlation false
 positive rate
In-Reply-To: <CAJVRA1QTTadN2r2h4F0urHe45Z7uE+Y8SC2-TMi+tWB3N-sPEA@mail.gmail.com>
References: <56214E72.5050508@sky-ip.org>
 <CAD2Ti2_1qj1nEPVcTnD1u3d6Ftuo=U2kbrmiNyAXd=HFmQBdwg@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAJVRA1QTTadN2r2h4F0urHe45Z7uE+Y8SC2-TMi+tWB3N-sPEA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <5626c839.9c16370a.82fa3.ffffb50e@mx.google.com>

On Tue, 20 Oct 2015 15:41:43 -0700
coderman <coderman at gmail.com> wrote:

> On 10/20/15, grarpamp <grarpamp at gmail.com> wrote:...


	I've been meaning to ask this for a while...coderman and
	grarpamp are the same person? (I'm assuming the answer is 'yes')










From juan.g71 at gmail.com  Tue Oct 20 18:26:44 2015
From: juan.g71 at gmail.com (Juan)
Date: Tue, 20 Oct 2015 22:26:44 -0300
Subject: [tor-dev] Effect of padding on end to end correlation false
 positive rate
In-Reply-To: <5626E522.2080702@riseup.net>
References: <56214E72.5050508@sky-ip.org>
 <CAD2Ti2_1qj1nEPVcTnD1u3d6Ftuo=U2kbrmiNyAXd=HFmQBdwg@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAJVRA1QTTadN2r2h4F0urHe45Z7uE+Y8SC2-TMi+tWB3N-sPEA@mail.gmail.com>
 <5626c839.9c16370a.82fa3.ffffb50e@mx.google.com>
 <5626E522.2080702@riseup.net>
Message-ID: <5626e866.8a278c0a.a9353.ffffc0cc@mx.google.com>

On Tue, 20 Oct 2015 19:06:42 -0600
Mirimir <mirimir at riseup.net> wrote:

> On 10/20/2015 05:09 PM, Juan wrote:
> > On Tue, 20 Oct 2015 15:41:43 -0700
> > coderman <coderman at gmail.com> wrote:
> > 
> >> On 10/20/15, grarpamp <grarpamp at gmail.com> wrote:...
> > 
> > 
> > 	I've been meaning to ask this for a while...coderman and
> > 	grarpamp are the same person? (I'm assuming the answer is
> > 'yes')
> 
> Hard to say. But I doubt it.


	Really? Both use virtually the same robotic, military-like
	language, full of pseudo technical garbage.

> 
> On the other hand, you do come off as a sock ;)

	Go figure. And I counted you as an ally of sorts. So tell
	me, whose 'sock'? 














From mirimir at riseup.net  Tue Oct 20 22:26:01 2015
From: mirimir at riseup.net (Mirimir)
Date: Tue, 20 Oct 2015 23:26:01 -0600
Subject: USA government debt ceiling
In-Reply-To: <562709a9.d1598c0a.29bc1.ffffcd24@mx.google.com>
References: <CAOsGNSSpW6H5POz=xF5NpNc6Xvie_XoTStKtgDnThrE5Ys9Uqw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAOsGNSR9tXKM9+nPvJgT_7qESJPSJ9JuXWyeNFqBoPUCFEY3Bg@mail.gmail.com>
 <20151005124251.GC2489@sivokote.iziade.m$>
 <CAOsGNSSvyQc8LGkoYMVWpqXB0QCj=gOeoXrPXL7Max=Wtu5NaQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <20151011070745.GA2610@sivokote.iziade.m$>
 <CAHWD2rKMAE7tH+t4B-P9XEPmTSRsuqEmQ8NVQKOFi2ww3uh_CQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <20151014122254.GC2599@sivokote.iziade.m$>
 <CAGRDzQUBoV9qMUf845rHztVhavo9FWkPP=qpY4T_C-P9RX=T8A@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAD2Ti28cyRmHM-AJ=hHKRge-1UrK+ntSzL23nJ26UZr1sWNssA@mail.gmail.com>
 <5626bed1.c91d8c0a.d971.ffffadad@mx.google.com> <5626EB3E.5040306@riseup.net>
 <562709a9.d1598c0a.29bc1.ffffcd24@mx.google.com>
Message-ID: <562721E9.8080207@riseup.net>

On 10/20/2015 09:48 PM, Juan wrote:
> On Tue, 20 Oct 2015 19:32:46 -0600
> Mirimir <mirimir at riseup.net> wrote:
> 
>> On 10/20/2015 04:29 PM, Juan wrote:
>>> On Tue, 20 Oct 2015 17:38:39 -0400
>>> grarpamp <grarpamp at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>> On Wed, Oct 14, 2015 at 10:41 AM, Cari Machet
>>>> <carimachet at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>> Presently the chinese see the futility of the system and are
>>>>> shifting i cant remember into what exactly
>>>>
>>>> Bitcoin. 
>>>
>>> 	And your source is? 
> 
>>
>> 2015-10-20: https://www.bitcoincharts.com/charts/volumepie/
> 
> 
> 	Thanks. I wasn't aware that ~70% of btc trades are denominated
> 	in chinese fiat. Assuming the data is correct (which seems to
> 	be debated)

De nada :) As I recall, it's also true for IPs, but I didn't find a
source. One could sumif the blockchain data by IP, and then get country
from MaxMind etc. There aren't too many Tor or VPN exits in China.

> 	Anyway, the original discussion was about the US and chinese
> 	governments manipulating their own monopoly tickets.

Right. I was taking "the chinese" more as the Chinese people. Or
whoever's buying Bitcoin, anyway. But regarding the thread overall, I do
believe that the Chinese government is divesting US bonds. They don't
want to fuck up the US economy by doing that quickly. But they also
don't want their investments to be devalued as the US prints money, ever
faster and faster.

> 	The chinese government isn't moving away from fiat although
> 	there seems to be rumours of them linking the yuan to gold
> 	somehow. 

Long term, as I understand it, they plan for yuan to replace dollar as
global fiat. They do own lots of gold, but I don't recall anything about
going gold standard. If you have cites, that would be cool.

> 	As to common people in china, maybe they are buying more
> 	bitcoins (and gold?), but the amount of fiat that's been turned
> 	into btc isn't exactly big, I would guess. So, saying that the
> 	chinese are shifting into bitcoin seems overly optimistic.

It's my impression that Chinese people are generally very into saving.
But judging by the stock craziness, they aren't very sane about what
they invest in. Gold has always been popular. Bitcoins were a fad for a
while, but that's cooled off since the Mt Gox bubble collapsed in early
2014. The current ~70% share maybe just reflects population.




From juan.g71 at gmail.com  Tue Oct 20 20:48:38 2015
From: juan.g71 at gmail.com (Juan)
Date: Wed, 21 Oct 2015 00:48:38 -0300
Subject: USA government debt ceiling
In-Reply-To: <5626EB3E.5040306@riseup.net>
References: <CAOsGNSSpW6H5POz=xF5NpNc6Xvie_XoTStKtgDnThrE5Ys9Uqw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAOsGNSR9tXKM9+nPvJgT_7qESJPSJ9JuXWyeNFqBoPUCFEY3Bg@mail.gmail.com>
 <20151005124251.GC2489@sivokote.iziade.m$>
 <CAOsGNSSvyQc8LGkoYMVWpqXB0QCj=gOeoXrPXL7Max=Wtu5NaQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <20151011070745.GA2610@sivokote.iziade.m$>
 <CAHWD2rKMAE7tH+t4B-P9XEPmTSRsuqEmQ8NVQKOFi2ww3uh_CQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <20151014122254.GC2599@sivokote.iziade.m$>
 <CAGRDzQUBoV9qMUf845rHztVhavo9FWkPP=qpY4T_C-P9RX=T8A@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAD2Ti28cyRmHM-AJ=hHKRge-1UrK+ntSzL23nJ26UZr1sWNssA@mail.gmail.com>
 <5626bed1.c91d8c0a.d971.ffffadad@mx.google.com>
 <5626EB3E.5040306@riseup.net>
Message-ID: <562709a9.d1598c0a.29bc1.ffffcd24@mx.google.com>

On Tue, 20 Oct 2015 19:32:46 -0600
Mirimir <mirimir at riseup.net> wrote:

> On 10/20/2015 04:29 PM, Juan wrote:
> > On Tue, 20 Oct 2015 17:38:39 -0400
> > grarpamp <grarpamp at gmail.com> wrote:
> > 
> >> On Wed, Oct 14, 2015 at 10:41 AM, Cari Machet
> >> <carimachet at gmail.com> wrote:
> >>> Presently the chinese see the futility of the system and are
> >>> shifting i cant remember into what exactly
> >>
> >> Bitcoin. 
> > 
> > 	And your source is? 

> 
> 2015-10-20: https://www.bitcoincharts.com/charts/volumepie/


	Thanks. I wasn't aware that ~70% of btc trades are denominated
	in chinese fiat. Assuming the data is correct (which seems to
	be debated)

	Anyway, the original discussion was about the US and chinese
	governments manipulating their own monopoly tickets.


	The chinese government isn't moving away from fiat although
	there seems to be rumours of them linking the yuan to gold
	somehow. 

	As to common people in china, maybe they are buying more
	bitcoins (and gold?), but the amount of fiat that's been turned
	into btc isn't exactly big, I would guess. So, saying that the
	chinese are shifting into bitcoin seems overly optimistic.



	







	






From mirimir at riseup.net  Wed Oct 21 00:37:54 2015
From: mirimir at riseup.net (Mirimir)
Date: Wed, 21 Oct 2015 01:37:54 -0600
Subject: [tor-dev] Effect of padding on end to end correlation false
 positive rate
In-Reply-To: <56272aa7.97818c0a.1cfdb.ffffd60d@mx.google.com>
References: <56214E72.5050508@sky-ip.org>
 <CAD2Ti2_1qj1nEPVcTnD1u3d6Ftuo=U2kbrmiNyAXd=HFmQBdwg@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAJVRA1QTTadN2r2h4F0urHe45Z7uE+Y8SC2-TMi+tWB3N-sPEA@mail.gmail.com>
 <5626c839.9c16370a.82fa3.ffffb50e@mx.google.com>
 <5626E522.2080702@riseup.net>
 <5626e866.8a278c0a.a9353.ffffc0cc@mx.google.com>
 <5626F076.9060700@riseup.net>
 <56272aa7.97818c0a.1cfdb.ffffd60d@mx.google.com>
Message-ID: <562740D2.30902@riseup.net>

On 10/21/2015 12:09 AM, Juan wrote:
> On Tue, 20 Oct 2015 19:55:02 -0600
> Mirimir <mirimir at riseup.net> wrote:

<SNIP>

>>>> On the other hand, you do come off as a sock ;)
>>>
>>> 	Go figure. And I counted you as an ally of sorts. So tell
>>> 	me, whose 'sock'? 
>>
>> I do consider you an ally, of a sort. And your perspective is
>> valuable. But your unremitting nihilism has been getting to me. And
>> it smells like sock to me.
> 
> 
> 	Oh, I'm pretty nihilistic about anything good ever coming from
> 	the US government, both from the 'public' part of it and from
> 	the 'private' part like facebook, intel or any other american
> 	firm. Granted, the rest of the 'free world' is hardly better. 
> 
> 	I used to have a more 'mainstream' and bening view of the US
> 	'private' sector. But I know better now.
> 
> 	But I'm not nihilitic about everything...yet =P

Me neither. Sometimes, though ...

>> In particular, I also have concerns and reservations about Tor. It's
>> true that the US military funded its development.
> 
> 	I think the proper verb tense is present.

True.

>> And it's true that
>> they probably still use it.
> 	
> 	that they use it is clearly stated in torproject.org 
> 
> 	"who uses tor : military and law enforcement"

Well, that's what the website says. I have no way to verify that ;)

>> But maybe think of it this way: we have military-grade anonymity. 
> 
> 	You have 'military grade' anonimity depending on who's your
> 	adversary (to use their military jargon)

True.

> 	If your adversary just happens to be the military who created
> 	tor you only have problems. 

Tor is open-source, and collaborative. Arguably, anyone with requisite
skills and resources can subvert it. But it is true that the Five Eyes
have the best resources for traffic analysis.

> 	And frankly, do you think the US military would shoot
> 	themselves in the foot by creating something that 'aids'
> 	'terrorists' and that they can't subvert? There's no reason for
> 	them to do that so it's safe to conclude that they didn't do it.

It's hard to say. Only idiots use tools with backdoors.

>> And
>> in any case, as far as I know, it's the best anonymity tool we've got.
>>
> 
> 	Tool for what? If, for instance, you want to publish documents,
> 	isn't freenet a better alternative? 

I don't believe that either Freenet or I2P are large enough to provide
strong anonymity. And both (along with most P2P systems) require that
nodes be discoverable. That complicates using them with VPNs and Tor.

It might be possible to run Freenet nodes as onion services. That works
well enough for Tahoe-LAFS. I've been meaning to test that. Also IPFS.

> 	Freenet is truly p2p (unlike tor), the storage is
> 	decentralized (unlike tor) and the developers don't get
> 	millions of dollars from the pentagon (as far as I know). 

Well, adversaries can use malicious P2P nodes. It's true that Freenet is
about the same size as Tor (http://www.asksteved.com/stats/ vs
https://metrics.torproject.org/networksize.html). But with Tor, what's
relevant is the number of possible circuits. With ~1700 entry guards,
~1000 exit relays and ~2300 non-entry/non-exit relays, about four
billion distinct circuits are possible.

> 	Now, I wouldn't actually recomend freenet because I haven't
> 	done much homework regarding it, but at least it deserves a 
> 	mention I think. 

Yes, it does. But neither it nor I2P provide anonymous access to the
general Internet.




From mirimir at riseup.net  Wed Oct 21 00:43:01 2015
From: mirimir at riseup.net (Mirimir)
Date: Wed, 21 Oct 2015 01:43:01 -0600
Subject: USA government debt ceiling
In-Reply-To: <20151021063028.GA2759@sivokote.iziade.m$>
References: <CAOsGNSR9tXKM9+nPvJgT_7qESJPSJ9JuXWyeNFqBoPUCFEY3Bg@mail.gmail.com>
 <20151005124251.GC2489@sivokote.iziade.m$>
 <CAOsGNSSvyQc8LGkoYMVWpqXB0QCj=gOeoXrPXL7Max=Wtu5NaQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <20151011070745.GA2610@sivokote.iziade.m$>
 <CAHWD2rKMAE7tH+t4B-P9XEPmTSRsuqEmQ8NVQKOFi2ww3uh_CQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <20151014122254.GC2599@sivokote.iziade.m$>
 <CAGRDzQUBoV9qMUf845rHztVhavo9FWkPP=qpY4T_C-P9RX=T8A@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAD2Ti28cyRmHM-AJ=hHKRge-1UrK+ntSzL23nJ26UZr1sWNssA@mail.gmail.com>
 <5626bed1.c91d8c0a.d971.ffffadad@mx.google.com> <5626EB3E.5040306@riseup.net>
 <20151021063028.GA2759@sivokote.iziade.m$>
Message-ID: <56274205.6090807@riseup.net>

On 10/21/2015 12:30 AM, Georgi Guninski wrote:
> On Tue, Oct 20, 2015 at 07:32:46PM -0600, Mirimir wrote:
>> 2015-10-20: https://www.bitcoincharts.com/charts/volumepie/
> 
> 
> I have very vague idea how bitcoin works.
> 
> Isn't dishonest actor with enough resources danger to the integrity of
> bitcoins?

Yes. But this is about block mining, not Bitcoin ownership.

> According to this:
> https://www.reddit.com/r/IAmA/comments/1nisdy/were_glenn_greenwald_and_janine_gibson_of_the/ccjh2mq
> 
> ---
> Nope. The way bitcoin is run requires 51% of "agreement" before you can
> break the system. It would cost well into the hundreds of millions of
> dollars to get that now, so the system is pretty safe.
> ...
> Minor correction, apparently it would be about $500 million to execute a
> 51% attack - which is pretty huge.
> ---
> 
> The above was written two years ago, so the number is likely larger now.
> 
> Later was claimed that such 51% attack will be rolled back.
> 
> How is stuff rolled back in decentralized system of which >=51% is
> dishonest?

The system would fork. There would be chaos. Because payments would be
unmade. People would need to sort it out.




From juan.g71 at gmail.com  Tue Oct 20 23:09:24 2015
From: juan.g71 at gmail.com (Juan)
Date: Wed, 21 Oct 2015 03:09:24 -0300
Subject: [tor-dev] Effect of padding on end to end correlation false
 positive rate
In-Reply-To: <5626F076.9060700@riseup.net>
References: <56214E72.5050508@sky-ip.org>
 <CAD2Ti2_1qj1nEPVcTnD1u3d6Ftuo=U2kbrmiNyAXd=HFmQBdwg@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAJVRA1QTTadN2r2h4F0urHe45Z7uE+Y8SC2-TMi+tWB3N-sPEA@mail.gmail.com>
 <5626c839.9c16370a.82fa3.ffffb50e@mx.google.com>
 <5626E522.2080702@riseup.net>
 <5626e866.8a278c0a.a9353.ffffc0cc@mx.google.com>
 <5626F076.9060700@riseup.net>
Message-ID: <56272aa7.97818c0a.1cfdb.ffffd60d@mx.google.com>

On Tue, 20 Oct 2015 19:55:02 -0600
Mirimir <mirimir at riseup.net> wrote:


> > 
> > 	Really? Both use virtually the same robotic, military-like
> > 	language, full of pseudo technical garbage.
> 
> That's true. But there are many militaries. And although much of their
> technical allusion is over my head, what I do get makes sense.

	I think they also tend to post at the same time, but that's a
	pretty casual observation. Anyway, no big deal.


> 
> >> On the other hand, you do come off as a sock ;)
> > 
> > 	Go figure. And I counted you as an ally of sorts. So tell
> > 	me, whose 'sock'? 
> 
> I do consider you an ally, of a sort. And your perspective is
> valuable. But your unremitting nihilism has been getting to me. And
> it smells like sock to me.


	Oh, I'm pretty nihilistic about anything good ever coming from
	the US government, both from the 'public' part of it and from
	the 'private' part like facebook, intel or any other american
	firm. Granted, the rest of the 'free world' is hardly better. 

	I used to have a more 'mainstream' and bening view of the US
	'private' sector. But I know better now.

	But I'm not nihilitic about everything...yet =P



> 
> In particular, I also have concerns and reservations about Tor. It's
> true that the US military funded its development.

	I think the proper verb tense is present.


> And it's true that
> they probably still use it.
	
	that they use it is clearly stated in torproject.org 

	"who uses tor : military and law enforcement"


> 
> But maybe think of it this way: we have military-grade anonymity. 

	You have 'military grade' anonimity depending on who's your
	adversary (to use their military jargon)

	If your adversary just happens to be the military who created
	tor you only have problems. 

	And frankly, do you think the US military would shoot
	themselves in the foot by creating something that 'aids'
	'terrorists' and that they can't subvert? There's no reason for
	them to do that so it's safe to conclude that they didn't do it.


> And
> in any case, as far as I know, it's the best anonymity tool we've got.
> 

	Tool for what? If, for instance, you want to publish documents,
	isn't freenet a better alternative? 

	Freenet is truly p2p (unlike tor), the storage is
	decentralized (unlike tor) and the developers don't get
	millions of dollars from the pentagon (as far as I know). 

	Now, I wouldn't actually recomend freenet because I haven't
	done much homework regarding it, but at least it deserves a 
	mention I think. 














From zen at freedbms.net  Wed Oct 21 02:06:40 2015
From: zen at freedbms.net (Zenaan Harkness)
Date: Wed, 21 Oct 2015 09:06:40 +0000
Subject: USA government debt ceiling
In-Reply-To: <562709a9.d1598c0a.29bc1.ffffcd24@mx.google.com>
References: <CAOsGNSSpW6H5POz=xF5NpNc6Xvie_XoTStKtgDnThrE5Ys9Uqw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAOsGNSR9tXKM9+nPvJgT_7qESJPSJ9JuXWyeNFqBoPUCFEY3Bg@mail.gmail.com>
 <20151005124251.GC2489@sivokote.iziade.m$>
 <CAOsGNSSvyQc8LGkoYMVWpqXB0QCj=gOeoXrPXL7Max=Wtu5NaQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <20151011070745.GA2610@sivokote.iziade.m$>
 <CAHWD2rKMAE7tH+t4B-P9XEPmTSRsuqEmQ8NVQKOFi2ww3uh_CQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <20151014122254.GC2599@sivokote.iziade.m$>
 <CAGRDzQUBoV9qMUf845rHztVhavo9FWkPP=qpY4T_C-P9RX=T8A@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAD2Ti28cyRmHM-AJ=hHKRge-1UrK+ntSzL23nJ26UZr1sWNssA@mail.gmail.com>
 <5626bed1.c91d8c0a.d971.ffffadad@mx.google.com>
 <5626EB3E.5040306@riseup.net>
 <562709a9.d1598c0a.29bc1.ffffcd24@mx.google.com>
Message-ID: <CAOsGNSTRQHzJOF5DkgpLHsSDgg-n_P1BsDX+xDqenQmqtCr7=g@mail.gmail.com>

On 10/21/15, Juan <juan.g71 at gmail.com> wrote:

> 	The chinese government isn't moving away from fiat although
> 	there seems to be rumours of them linking the yuan to gold
> 	somehow.

"September 10th, 2015: China’s Shanghai Gold Exchange announces that
physical gold bullion will be allowed to be used as collateral on
future’s contracts, beginning September 29th, 2015. “This development
is an important one for the gold market and is bullish for gold. It
shows, once again, that gold is slowly but surely becoming a cash
equivalent and as money again. Gold’s re-monetisation in the
international financial and monetary system continues.”
"

from here:
http://themindunleashed.org/2015/10/part-3-20-more-signs-that-the-global-elites-ship-is-about-to-sink.html

I may have posted the following a while back, not sure: Russia Reserve
Bank buys the majority (all?) of internal/Russia mined gold, most/all
of internal consumer gold is imported; the internal production is
roughly 20 tonnes a month, and I think Russia's reserves are around
1300 tonnes at this point. This is just the publicly official amount,
real amounts may be different.

China is stockpiling gold similarly rapidly.

It certainly goes hand in hand with their evident intention to jump
ship off the petro dollar, with BRICS, AIIB, SCO, EEU etc. And with
the US govt now 6 months bankrupt, without a further extension of
emergency funding measures and without an increase in the debt ceiling
we will see the full reset to some new "US reserve note/fiat" on or
shortly after October 30 (when the USGov next assesses their emergency
funding/ debt ceiling situation). Frankly, now that there is so much
selling of USGov securities:


Also:

(Feb 20 2014)
http://www.dailywealth.com/2669/the-chinese-are-selling-us-debt-and-buying-gold

Russia Shorts the Dollar, Bets on Gold
http://russia-insider.com/en/politics_business/2014/11/17/11-36-00pm/putin_biggest_gold_bug
"Sanctions have stalled Russia gold exports enabling the central bank
to add to its reserves on the cheap"

China and Russia are Finally Dumping US Treasuries
http://russia-insider.com/en/2014/12/16/1938

Russia Sells More US Bonds, Buys More Gold. De-Dollarization Marches On
http://russia-insider.com/en/2015/01/19/2552

Russia Dumps a Fifth of Its US Treasuries, China Reduces Holdings to a
Two-Year Low
http://russia-insider.com/en/politics/2015/02/20/3709

The PetroYuan Is Born! Gazprom Now Settling All Crude to China in
Renminbi (11 Jun 2015)
http://russia-insider.com/en/petroyuan-born-gazprom-now-settling-all-crude-sales-china-renminbi/ri7924

http://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2015-08-27/china-said-to-sell-treasuries-as-dollars-needed-for-yuan-support
(China selling down USD reserves at $40billion per month, ongoing,
with the odd larger spike)

"China dumping Treasurys? Here's what you must know"
http://www.cnbc.com/2015/08/28/china-dumping-treasurys-heres-what-you-must-know.html

And a very recent commentary:
http://www.cnbc.com/2015/10/14/what-china-selling-us-treasurys-really-means-commentary.html
which interestingly concludes interestingly "In other words, the world
is not choking on U.S. debt, instead, there is a relative shortage of
it."

We'll see in time. I have no doubt they (USG/Federal Reserve Bank) can
QE (print money) their way for another round or three, the only
question is what is in their (maximal) interest - reset now, or QE
again.


> 	As to common people in china, maybe they are buying more
> 	bitcoins (and gold?), but the amount of fiat that's been turned
> 	into btc isn't exactly big, I would guess. So, saying that the
> 	chinese are shifting into bitcoin seems overly optimistic.

"Diversification" in the face of a soon to collapse world reserve
currency, USD, makes sense though.

http://www.zerohedge.com/news/2015-10-09/another-petro-state-throws-towel-last-nail-petrodollar-coffin

Z




From guninski at guninski.com  Tue Oct 20 23:30:28 2015
From: guninski at guninski.com (Georgi Guninski)
Date: Wed, 21 Oct 2015 09:30:28 +0300
Subject: USA government debt ceiling
In-Reply-To: <5626EB3E.5040306@riseup.net>
References: <CAOsGNSR9tXKM9+nPvJgT_7qESJPSJ9JuXWyeNFqBoPUCFEY3Bg@mail.gmail.com>
 <20151005124251.GC2489@sivokote.iziade.m$>
 <CAOsGNSSvyQc8LGkoYMVWpqXB0QCj=gOeoXrPXL7Max=Wtu5NaQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <20151011070745.GA2610@sivokote.iziade.m$>
 <CAHWD2rKMAE7tH+t4B-P9XEPmTSRsuqEmQ8NVQKOFi2ww3uh_CQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <20151014122254.GC2599@sivokote.iziade.m$>
 <CAGRDzQUBoV9qMUf845rHztVhavo9FWkPP=qpY4T_C-P9RX=T8A@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAD2Ti28cyRmHM-AJ=hHKRge-1UrK+ntSzL23nJ26UZr1sWNssA@mail.gmail.com>
 <5626bed1.c91d8c0a.d971.ffffadad@mx.google.com>
 <5626EB3E.5040306@riseup.net>
Message-ID: <20151021063028.GA2759@sivokote.iziade.m$>

On Tue, Oct 20, 2015 at 07:32:46PM -0600, Mirimir wrote:
> 2015-10-20: https://www.bitcoincharts.com/charts/volumepie/


I have very vague idea how bitcoin works.

Isn't dishonest actor with enough resources danger to the integrity of
bitcoins?

According to this:
https://www.reddit.com/r/IAmA/comments/1nisdy/were_glenn_greenwald_and_janine_gibson_of_the/ccjh2mq

---
Nope. The way bitcoin is run requires 51% of "agreement" before you can
break the system. It would cost well into the hundreds of millions of
dollars to get that now, so the system is pretty safe.
...
Minor correction, apparently it would be about $500 million to execute a
51% attack - which is pretty huge.
---

The above was written two years ago, so the number is likely larger now.

Later was claimed that such 51% attack will be rolled back.

How is stuff rolled back in decentralized system of which >=51% is
dishonest?




From Rayzer at riseup.net  Wed Oct 21 10:19:41 2015
From: Rayzer at riseup.net (The Peanut Gallery)
Date: Wed, 21 Oct 2015 10:19:41 -0700
Subject: [tor-talk] Tor
In-Reply-To: <CAJVRA1S6RWz6HaPcZyJMYnf=qmptZfjn3aw_TS+hdDb1w3YC-w@mail.gmail.com>
References: <561ea5d9.e3568c0a.a5f46.32ed@mx.google.com>
 <5622c66a.f01b8c0a.9f4ba.3310@mx.google.com>
 <caps8srk6n8sx0dvckeke_qu9kwkdh8avpgyjuyfs7scryh3umw@mail.gmail.com>
 <20151017215951.71f8a907@emailcontrol.org> <561e69bf.70201@gmail.com>
 <7037A695606.00000209beatthebastards@inbox.com>
 <5622d435.83218c0a.d4e45.0f1c@mx.google.com> <56234309.20605@veloc1ty.de>
 <CADop2NG8TruMY8+gi2VXnuXrPNgo9+vXS3SNOgA+jDMw9XZh6Q@mail.gmail.com>
 <5623A9CF.7030908@foofus.com> <20151019222206.22651afe@emailcontrol.org>
 <56258812.03c98c0a.a3d9c.0c5b@mx.google.com>
 <3069EA29-7494-4684-9BC2-3913EB330000@gmail.com>
 <CAD2Ti2_fyqyJY10DCrSzj9oceKD3Q7wHkp-Z03XVkasU2_vZow@mail.gmail.com>
 <CADop2NEHHJ+2B0e8L6Xj+hwBq3_iUhL0h2GOJnSAJbwqhvh7hQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <5625f130.0b1d8c0a.72c60.2e1b@mx.google.com>
 <CAJVRA1Tj5f5EKLb=nauDop+3DQ=7tVNBD770+WoErtAV7u1hLg@mail.gmail.com>
 <56269403.48908c0a.c747b.ffff9447@mx.google.com>
 <CAJVRA1S6RWz6HaPcZyJMYnf=qmptZfjn3aw_TS+hdDb1w3YC-w@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <5627C92D.6040209@riseup.net>



On 10/20/2015 12:50 PM, coderman wrote:
>  e.g. TAO CNE.
>
> legal hacks of domestic servers - FISA court would have to approve? both of these are legitimate restraints, though we may argue about their effectiveness.

ROTF! "Legitimate Restraints" and "FISA court" in the same sentence!

Were you able to keep a straight face as you typed that?

Just Sayin'

Sincerely,
The Peanut Gallery

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From zen at freedbms.net  Wed Oct 21 03:50:24 2015
From: zen at freedbms.net (Zenaan Harkness)
Date: Wed, 21 Oct 2015 10:50:24 +0000
Subject: USA government debt ceiling
In-Reply-To: <CAOsGNSTRQHzJOF5DkgpLHsSDgg-n_P1BsDX+xDqenQmqtCr7=g@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAOsGNSSpW6H5POz=xF5NpNc6Xvie_XoTStKtgDnThrE5Ys9Uqw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAOsGNSR9tXKM9+nPvJgT_7qESJPSJ9JuXWyeNFqBoPUCFEY3Bg@mail.gmail.com>
 <20151005124251.GC2489@sivokote.iziade.m$>
 <CAOsGNSSvyQc8LGkoYMVWpqXB0QCj=gOeoXrPXL7Max=Wtu5NaQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <20151011070745.GA2610@sivokote.iziade.m$>
 <CAHWD2rKMAE7tH+t4B-P9XEPmTSRsuqEmQ8NVQKOFi2ww3uh_CQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <20151014122254.GC2599@sivokote.iziade.m$>
 <CAGRDzQUBoV9qMUf845rHztVhavo9FWkPP=qpY4T_C-P9RX=T8A@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAD2Ti28cyRmHM-AJ=hHKRge-1UrK+ntSzL23nJ26UZr1sWNssA@mail.gmail.com>
 <5626bed1.c91d8c0a.d971.ffffadad@mx.google.com>
 <5626EB3E.5040306@riseup.net>
 <562709a9.d1598c0a.29bc1.ffffcd24@mx.google.com>
 <CAOsGNSTRQHzJOF5DkgpLHsSDgg-n_P1BsDX+xDqenQmqtCr7=g@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAOsGNSRX4rP7y+w=yHTFGxfhMSZGMBpeXrAnyNa1Yx8aAqdZ1Q@mail.gmail.com>

A sensationalist sounding piece about Deutsche Bank perhaps about to
fail, with numerical comparison to Enron and more:

http://www.silverdoctors.com/here-we-go-fund-manager-warns-something-just-blew-up-in-the-global-financial-system/
"Glencore was originally said to have $30 billion of debt.  However,
that number did not include the $50 billion in bank credit lines
outstanding plus an undetermined amount of unsecured trade finance
deals.  The total exposure to Glencore debt by banks and investors is
now estimated to be as high as $100 billion – LINK.
To put this in perspective, Enron had $13 billion in debt at the time
of its collapse.  Moody’s continued to assign a triple-A debt rating
to Enron until shortly before it filed for bankruptcy.  I mention this
to illustrate the unreliability of “expert” hear-say analysis."
(with graph)
...




From l at odewijk.nl  Wed Oct 21 03:36:19 2015
From: l at odewijk.nl (=?UTF-8?Q?Lodewijk_andr=C3=A9_de_la_porte?=)
Date: Wed, 21 Oct 2015 12:36:19 +0200
Subject: USA government debt ceiling
In-Reply-To: <CAOsGNSTRQHzJOF5DkgpLHsSDgg-n_P1BsDX+xDqenQmqtCr7=g@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAOsGNSSpW6H5POz=xF5NpNc6Xvie_XoTStKtgDnThrE5Ys9Uqw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAOsGNSR9tXKM9+nPvJgT_7qESJPSJ9JuXWyeNFqBoPUCFEY3Bg@mail.gmail.com>
 <20151005124251.GC2489@sivokote.iziade.m$>
 <CAOsGNSSvyQc8LGkoYMVWpqXB0QCj=gOeoXrPXL7Max=Wtu5NaQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <20151011070745.GA2610@sivokote.iziade.m$>
 <CAHWD2rKMAE7tH+t4B-P9XEPmTSRsuqEmQ8NVQKOFi2ww3uh_CQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <20151014122254.GC2599@sivokote.iziade.m$>
 <CAGRDzQUBoV9qMUf845rHztVhavo9FWkPP=qpY4T_C-P9RX=T8A@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAD2Ti28cyRmHM-AJ=hHKRge-1UrK+ntSzL23nJ26UZr1sWNssA@mail.gmail.com>
 <5626bed1.c91d8c0a.d971.ffffadad@mx.google.com> <5626EB3E.5040306@riseup.net>
 <562709a9.d1598c0a.29bc1.ffffcd24@mx.google.com>
 <CAOsGNSTRQHzJOF5DkgpLHsSDgg-n_P1BsDX+xDqenQmqtCr7=g@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAHWD2rKg+6LNn+kjY4jJg6wj+H9oQLMrbL9dAWBt=Rwc=0m9iw@mail.gmail.com>

Okay, so, cool your hats, Chinese exchanges lie about volume. Others may
too, but it's less clear. The Chinese exchanges also charge no commission
on trades - inflating the amounts. (There may/may not also be other money
schemes)

China is growing, and therefore should accumulate any sort of wealth. I
have no quality info on it accumulating strangely.
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From admin at pilobilus.net  Wed Oct 21 18:30:33 2015
From: admin at pilobilus.net (Steve Kinney)
Date: Wed, 21 Oct 2015 21:30:33 -0400
Subject: Suggest High-Signal Crew Ditch This for Reddit
In-Reply-To: <56244A6C.6060400@riseup.net>
References: <1445023013.32260.36.camel@europa>
 <1445209667.1226043.413553841.61C021C4@webmail.messagingengine.com>
 <56244A6C.6060400@riseup.net>
Message-ID: <56283C39.2020607@pilobilus.net>

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1

On 10/18/2015 09:42 PM, Razer wrote:
> 
> 
> On 10/18/2015 04:07 PM, Alfie John wrote:
>> the noise may be deliberate:
>> 
>> https://theintercept.com/2014/02/24/jtrig-manipulation/
> 
> Just watch the Israel trolls. Most are morons, but they sure
> make some 'noise'.
> 
> From the article:
>> GCHQ describes the purpose of JTRIG in starkly clear terms:
>> “using online techniques to make something happen in the real
>> or cyber world,” including “information ops (influence or
>> disruption).”
>> 
> +1
> 
> Influence: Search Engines so googlers see THEIR info first.
> 
> Disruption: Make the forums they infest less desirable with 
> disinformation, sometimes quite obvious, repeated over and over
> and over again intended to (see 'influence' first and...)
> generally annoy users who disagree with them using ad hom
> filled rants, often tail-ending comment threads so their info
> is first/last seen.

Something I have seen a lot of is professional promotion of
obviously bogus "conspiracy theories" in forums where some of the
more embarrassing excesses of our Deep State and Security Service
get up to are openly and accurately discussed. Maybe it's just
advertising targeting a demographic; there's always a click-bait
website at the source. Or maybe it's stink-marking to repel fence
sitting Liberals who might be edging toward radicalization, or at
least help them remember that subjects they have been taught to
lie to themselves about are "things those ignorant idiots believe."

Either way, same result: The networks are a battlefield and those
who don't come prepared leave disinformed if not brainwashed. Twas
ever thus; what do you say to a person who asks you for a
"trustworthy and accurate news source"?

I tell them there ain't no such thing, and shove a copy of this in
their general direction in hope that it might occasionally do some
good:
http://cryptome.org/2013/01/aaron-swartz/Psychology-of-Intelligence-
Analysis.pdf

Hope springs eternal...

:o)

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From carimachet at gmail.com  Wed Oct 21 13:31:19 2015
From: carimachet at gmail.com (Cari Machet)
Date: Wed, 21 Oct 2015 23:31:19 +0300
Subject: Suggest High-Signal Crew Ditch This for Reddit
In-Reply-To: <56244A6C.6060400@riseup.net>
References: <1445023013.32260.36.camel@europa>
 <1445209667.1226043.413553841.61C021C4@webmail.messagingengine.com>
 <56244A6C.6060400@riseup.net>
Message-ID: <CAGRDzQVoYL5TFiKoNoZPRdgfxK9By7FCkbhFc_KT9iZcV5UMUg@mail.gmail.com>

Ever read any cia inside shit they publish to each other and recommend to
each other that they declassified? its pretty in depth psych tactic shit
they have long studied how to capture anyone

"It's like a retreating army taking cover in a heavily populated city
hoping that the prospect of hitting civilian targets will deter enemy fire"
arundhati roy on US policy
On Oct 19, 2015 4:52 AM, "Razer" <Rayzer at riseup.net> wrote:

>
>
> On 10/18/2015 04:07 PM, Alfie John wrote:
> > the noise may be deliberate:
> >
> >   https://theintercept.com/2014/02/24/jtrig-manipulation/
>
> Just watch the Israel trolls. Most are morons, but they sure make some
> 'noise'.
>
> From the article:
> > GCHQ describes the purpose of JTRIG in starkly clear terms: “using
> > online techniques to make something happen in the real or cyber
> > world,” including “information ops (influence or disruption).”
> >
> +1
>
> Influence: Search Engines so googlers see THEIR info first.
>
> Disruption: Make the forums they infest less desirable with
> disinformation, sometimes quite obvious, repeated over and over and over
> again intended to (see 'influence' first and...) generally annoy users
> who disagree with them using ad hom filled rants, often tail-ending
> comment threads so their info is first/last seen.
>
> RR
>
>
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From dan at geer.org  Wed Oct 21 21:11:10 2015
From: dan at geer.org (dan at geer.org)
Date: Thu, 22 Oct 2015 00:11:10 -0400
Subject: USA government debt ceiling
In-Reply-To: Your message of "Tue, 20 Oct 2015 17:38:39 -0400."
 <CAD2Ti28cyRmHM-AJ=hHKRge-1UrK+ntSzL23nJ26UZr1sWNssA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <20151022041110.E0051A06D8B@palinka.tinho.net>

 > This is why when the post wwii "leader" of the free world
 > shifted from real to fiat it's a big and not always so good deal.


In a social democracy with a fiat currency, all roads lead to inflation.
                        -- Bill Fleckenstein




From kurt.buff at gmail.com  Thu Oct 22 06:50:20 2015
From: kurt.buff at gmail.com (Kurt Buff)
Date: Thu, 22 Oct 2015 06:50:20 -0700
Subject: State of the art in malware owning human?
In-Reply-To: <20151022090553.GA2546@sivokote.iziade.m$>
References: <20151022090553.GA2546@sivokote.iziade.m$>
Message-ID: <CADy1Ce4fHKtg=TA235Xep8JhTbxF2GaP=khO7Tmu3NTV=nc6fA@mail.gmail.com>

"From each according to his ability, to each according to his need."
and
"We are all God's children"
and
"Mohamed is his prophet"

Worst malware ever. Makes people violent and unable to comprehend reality.

Kurt

On Thu, Oct 22, 2015 at 2:05 AM, Georgi Guninski <guninski at guninski.com> wrote:
> What is the state of the art in malware owning the human, not just the
> box?
>
> ...or DoS the human, making them inoperable.
>
> Maybe it is something like 25th frame, possibly with auditory vector.
>
> Or better remote hypnosis.
>
> IIRC on some forum about epilepsy someone posted ``weird image'' which
> causes severe crisis in some epileptics of certain form.
>
> Some info about 25th frame:
> http://strategicstudiesinstitute.army.mil/pubs/parameters/articles/98spring/thomas.htm
> ---
> According to Solntsev, one computer virus capable of affecting a
> person's psyche is Russian Virus 666. It manifests itself in every 25th
> frame of a visual display, where it produces a combination of colors
> that allegedly put computer operators into a trance. The subconscious
> perception of the new pattern eventually results in arrhythmia of the
> heart. Other Russian computer specialists, not just Solntsev, talk
> openly about this "25th frame effect" and its ability to subtly manage a
> computer user's perceptions. The purpose of this technique is to inject
> a thought into the viewer's subconscious. It may remind some of the
> subliminal advertising controversy in the United States in the late
> 1950s.
> ---
>
> F-secure claims:
> Russian Virus 666
> There is no virus by this name.
>
> IIRC spammers used it for spam in animated images
>
> http://edition.cnn.com/WORLD/9712/17/video.seizures.update/
> Japanese cartoon triggers seizures in hundreds of children
>




From Rayzer at riseup.net  Thu Oct 22 09:09:43 2015
From: Rayzer at riseup.net (Razer)
Date: Thu, 22 Oct 2015 09:09:43 -0700
Subject: State of the art in malware owning human?
In-Reply-To: <20151022090553.GA2546@sivokote.iziade.m$>
References: <20151022090553.GA2546@sivokote.iziade.m$>
Message-ID: <56290A47.3030904@riseup.net>

Here's the mental malware you're looking for;

"An abrasive analysis of popular culture under the spectacle of
postmodern capitalism with music by Synthamesk.

Warning: This video may induce seizures."

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zYTRIGtyZ44

The seizures are a side effect of the deprogramming. You'll feel much
better when it stops.

RR

On 10/22/2015 02:05 AM, Georgi Guninski wrote:
> What is the state of the art in malware owning the human, not just the
> box?
>
> ...or DoS the human, making them inoperable.
>
> Maybe it is something like 25th frame, possibly with auditory vector.
>
> Or better remote hypnosis.
>
> IIRC on some forum about epilepsy someone posted ``weird image'' which
> causes severe crisis in some epileptics of certain form.
>
> Some info about 25th frame:
> http://strategicstudiesinstitute.army.mil/pubs/parameters/articles/98spring/thomas.htm
> ---
> According to Solntsev, one computer virus capable of affecting a
> person's psyche is Russian Virus 666. It manifests itself in every 25th
> frame of a visual display, where it produces a combination of colors
> that allegedly put computer operators into a trance. The subconscious
> perception of the new pattern eventually results in arrhythmia of the
> heart. Other Russian computer specialists, not just Solntsev, talk
> openly about this "25th frame effect" and its ability to subtly manage a
> computer user's perceptions. The purpose of this technique is to inject
> a thought into the viewer's subconscious. It may remind some of the
> subliminal advertising controversy in the United States in the late
> 1950s.
> ---
>
> F-secure claims:
> Russian Virus 666
> There is no virus by this name.
>
> IIRC spammers used it for spam in animated images
>
> http://edition.cnn.com/WORLD/9712/17/video.seizures.update/
> Japanese cartoon triggers seizures in hundreds of children
>
>


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From dan at geer.org  Thu Oct 22 06:28:21 2015
From: dan at geer.org (dan at geer.org)
Date: Thu, 22 Oct 2015 09:28:21 -0400
Subject: blockchain technology
Message-ID: <20151022132821.CF525A06D99@palinka.tinho.net>

FYI, peernova.com is worth a look if you are keeping up with the
application(s) of blockchain technology and where it's entering
the marketplace.

--dan




From tbiehn at gmail.com  Thu Oct 22 06:59:38 2015
From: tbiehn at gmail.com (Travis Biehn)
Date: Thu, 22 Oct 2015 09:59:38 -0400
Subject: State of the art in malware owning human?
In-Reply-To: <CADy1Ce4fHKtg=TA235Xep8JhTbxF2GaP=khO7Tmu3NTV=nc6fA@mail.gmail.com>
References: <20151022090553.GA2546@sivokote.iziade.m$>
 <CADy1Ce4fHKtg=TA235Xep8JhTbxF2GaP=khO7Tmu3NTV=nc6fA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAKtE3zfpzF4p=LpdSsuwD64L7b=Wp+b=XPdrJMHJ__80i3yDUQ@mail.gmail.com>

"...or DoS the human, making them inoperable." - Panopticon, have you heard
of it?

You can usually trigger some basic feelings with these techniques.

Complex influence requires complex mechanisms.

PSYOPS and the like.

Couldn't resist.

-Travis

On Thu, Oct 22, 2015 at 9:50 AM, Kurt Buff <kurt.buff at gmail.com> wrote:

> "From each according to his ability, to each according to his need."
> and
> "We are all God's children"
> and
> "Mohamed is his prophet"
>
> Worst malware ever. Makes people violent and unable to comprehend reality.
>
> Kurt
>
> On Thu, Oct 22, 2015 at 2:05 AM, Georgi Guninski <guninski at guninski.com>
> wrote:
> > What is the state of the art in malware owning the human, not just the
> > box?
> >
> > ...or DoS the human, making them inoperable.
> >
> > Maybe it is something like 25th frame, possibly with auditory vector.
> >
> > Or better remote hypnosis.
> >
> > IIRC on some forum about epilepsy someone posted ``weird image'' which
> > causes severe crisis in some epileptics of certain form.
> >
> > Some info about 25th frame:
> >
> http://strategicstudiesinstitute.army.mil/pubs/parameters/articles/98spring/thomas.htm
> > ---
> > According to Solntsev, one computer virus capable of affecting a
> > person's psyche is Russian Virus 666. It manifests itself in every 25th
> > frame of a visual display, where it produces a combination of colors
> > that allegedly put computer operators into a trance. The subconscious
> > perception of the new pattern eventually results in arrhythmia of the
> > heart. Other Russian computer specialists, not just Solntsev, talk
> > openly about this "25th frame effect" and its ability to subtly manage a
> > computer user's perceptions. The purpose of this technique is to inject
> > a thought into the viewer's subconscious. It may remind some of the
> > subliminal advertising controversy in the United States in the late
> > 1950s.
> > ---
> >
> > F-secure claims:
> > Russian Virus 666
> > There is no virus by this name.
> >
> > IIRC spammers used it for spam in animated images
> >
> > http://edition.cnn.com/WORLD/9712/17/video.seizures.update/
> > Japanese cartoon triggers seizures in hundreds of children
> >
>



-- 
Twitter <https://twitter.com/tbiehn> | LinkedIn
<http://www.linkedin.com/in/travisbiehn> | GitHub <http://github.com/tbiehn>
| TravisBiehn.com <http://www.travisbiehn.com> | Google Plus
<https://plus.google.com/+TravisBiehn>
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From jya at pipeline.com  Thu Oct 22 08:33:33 2015
From: jya at pipeline.com (John Young)
Date: Thu, 22 Oct 2015 11:33:33 -0400
Subject: State of the art in malware owning human?
In-Reply-To: <CADy1Ce4fHKtg=TA235Xep8JhTbxF2GaP=khO7Tmu3NTV=nc6fA@mail.g
 mail.com>
References: <20151022090553.GA2546@sivokote.iziade.m$>
 <CADy1Ce4fHKtg=TA235Xep8JhTbxF2GaP=khO7Tmu3NTV=nc6fA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <E1ZpHr7-0007vx-Bn@elasmtp-spurfowl.atl.sa.earthlink.net>

National security religion current world malware leader. Consecrated
in 1947, fastest spreading global cult of carnage fed by stupendous
growth of spying and armaments industries. Bloodthirsty, vicious,
insane with maximum killing machines against infidels who refuse to
tithe, obey, excuse, honor and applaud worst earth and human destructors
ever. Nobody exempt from sacrifice at the altar of stand-off scripture of
privileging laws and economics. And condoned by gutless humor,
idiotic cynicism, flacid critique.

This Halloween lick the spookily sacred Arlington gravestones, the
spooky stars on the sacrificial hero wall.

"Amen, inshallah, fuck you, me, the leering pumpkins and off."  - Anon



At 09:50 AM 10/22/2015, you wrote:
>"From each according to his ability, to each according to his need."
>and
>"We are all God's children"
>and
>"Mohamed is his prophet"
>
>Worst malware ever. Makes people violent and unable to comprehend reality.
>
>Kurt
>
>On Thu, Oct 22, 2015 at 2:05 AM, Georgi Guninski 
><guninski at guninski.com> wrote:
> > What is the state of the art in malware owning the human, not just the
> > box?
> >
> > ...or DoS the human, making them inoperable.
> >
> > Maybe it is something like 25th frame, possibly with auditory vector.
> >
> > Or better remote hypnosis.
> >
> > IIRC on some forum about epilepsy someone posted ``weird image'' which
> > causes severe crisis in some epileptics of certain form.
> >
> > Some info about 25th frame:
> > 
> http://strategicstudiesinstitute.army.mil/pubs/parameters/articles/98spring/thomas.htm
> > ---
> > According to Solntsev, one computer virus capable of affecting a
> > person's psyche is Russian Virus 666. It manifests itself in every 25th
> > frame of a visual display, where it produces a combination of colors
> > that allegedly put computer operators into a trance. The subconscious
> > perception of the new pattern eventually results in arrhythmia of the
> > heart. Other Russian computer specialists, not just Solntsev, talk
> > openly about this "25th frame effect" and its ability to subtly manage a
> > computer user's perceptions. The purpose of this technique is to inject
> > a thought into the viewer's subconscious. It may remind some of the
> > subliminal advertising controversy in the United States in the late
> > 1950s.
> > ---
> >
> > F-secure claims:
> > Russian Virus 666
> > There is no virus by this name.
> >
> > IIRC spammers used it for spam in animated images
> >
> > http://edition.cnn.com/WORLD/9712/17/video.seizures.update/
> > Japanese cartoon triggers seizures in hundreds of children
> >





From drwho at virtadpt.net  Thu Oct 22 11:40:04 2015
From: drwho at virtadpt.net (The Doctor)
Date: Thu, 22 Oct 2015 11:40:04 -0700
Subject: State of the art in malware owning human?
In-Reply-To: <20151022090553.GA2546@sivokote.iziade.m$>
References: <20151022090553.GA2546@sivokote.iziade.m$>
Message-ID: <20151022114004.13d0ff8ec402879bb3eff25d@virtadpt.net>

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA512

On Thu, 22 Oct 2015 12:05:53 +0300
Georgi Guninski <guninski at guninski.com> wrote:

> What is the state of the art in malware owning the human, not just the
> box?
> ...or DoS the human, making them inoperable.

I seem to recall a raid on an epilepsy support forum, where various animated images were spammed all over the message threads.  No hard data on the results that I know of.

> According to Solntsev, one computer virus capable of affecting a
> person's psyche is Russian Virus 666. It manifests itself in every 25th
> frame of a visual display, where it produces a combination of colors

It sounds a little like the basilisk hacks in _Eclipse Phase_.  Skeptical cat is skeptical.

- -- 
The Doctor [412/724/301/703/415] [ZS]

PGP: 0x807B17C1 / 7960 1CDC 85C9 0B63 8D9F  DD89 3BD8 FF2B 807B 17C1
WWW: https://drwho.virtadpt.net/

Your sword has begun to glow very brightly.

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From drwho at virtadpt.net  Thu Oct 22 11:41:19 2015
From: drwho at virtadpt.net (The Doctor)
Date: Thu, 22 Oct 2015 11:41:19 -0700
Subject: State of the art in malware owning human?
In-Reply-To: <CADy1Ce4fHKtg=TA235Xep8JhTbxF2GaP=khO7Tmu3NTV=nc6fA@mail.gmail.com>
References: <20151022090553.GA2546@sivokote.iziade.m$>
 <CADy1Ce4fHKtg=TA235Xep8JhTbxF2GaP=khO7Tmu3NTV=nc6fA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <20151022114119.f460035bbd4f134cf706d265@virtadpt.net>

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA512

On Thu, 22 Oct 2015 06:50:20 -0700
Kurt Buff <kurt.buff at gmail.com> wrote:

> Worst malware ever. Makes people violent and unable to comprehend reality.

"The battle for the mind of North America will be fought in the video arena: The Videodrome.  The television screen is the retina of the mind's eye.  Therefore, the television screen is part of the physical structure of the brain.  Therefore, whatever appears on the television screen emerges as raw experience for those who watch it.  Therefore, television is reality, and reality is less than television."
        --Brian O'Blivion, _Videodrome_

- -- 
The Doctor [412/724/301/703/415] [ZS]

PGP: 0x807B17C1 / 7960 1CDC 85C9 0B63 8D9F  DD89 3BD8 FF2B 807B 17C1
WWW: https://drwho.virtadpt.net/

Your sword has begun to glow very brightly.

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From guninski at guninski.com  Thu Oct 22 02:05:53 2015
From: guninski at guninski.com (Georgi Guninski)
Date: Thu, 22 Oct 2015 12:05:53 +0300
Subject: State of the art in malware owning human?
Message-ID: <20151022090553.GA2546@sivokote.iziade.m$>

What is the state of the art in malware owning the human, not just the
box?

...or DoS the human, making them inoperable.

Maybe it is something like 25th frame, possibly with auditory vector.

Or better remote hypnosis.

IIRC on some forum about epilepsy someone posted ``weird image'' which
causes severe crisis in some epileptics of certain form.

Some info about 25th frame:
http://strategicstudiesinstitute.army.mil/pubs/parameters/articles/98spring/thomas.htm
---
According to Solntsev, one computer virus capable of affecting a
person's psyche is Russian Virus 666. It manifests itself in every 25th
frame of a visual display, where it produces a combination of colors
that allegedly put computer operators into a trance. The subconscious
perception of the new pattern eventually results in arrhythmia of the
heart. Other Russian computer specialists, not just Solntsev, talk
openly about this "25th frame effect" and its ability to subtly manage a
computer user's perceptions. The purpose of this technique is to inject
a thought into the viewer's subconscious. It may remind some of the
subliminal advertising controversy in the United States in the late
1950s.
---

F-secure claims:
Russian Virus 666
There is no virus by this name.

IIRC spammers used it for spam in animated images

http://edition.cnn.com/WORLD/9712/17/video.seizures.update/
Japanese cartoon triggers seizures in hundreds of children




From rich at openwatch.net  Thu Oct 22 13:25:32 2015
From: rich at openwatch.net (Rich Jones)
Date: Thu, 22 Oct 2015 13:25:32 -0700
Subject: State of the art in malware owning human?
In-Reply-To: <56293894.e3568c0a.ae64f.ffffecc1@mx.google.com>
References: <20151022090553.GA2546@sivokote.iziade.m$>
 <CADy1Ce4fHKtg=TA235Xep8JhTbxF2GaP=khO7Tmu3NTV=nc6fA@mail.gmail.com>
 <56293894.e3568c0a.ae64f.ffffecc1@mx.google.com>
Message-ID: <CADJYzxJ3XN9mAWXUfeiMz7z+1P8j8h3pj8EsrMyK_7VkFTYbPA@mail.gmail.com>

Where in the stack are you attacking?

For behavior, consult old Phracks on neuro-lingustic programming. A brush
of the hair, a touch of the elbow, anything that builds rapport and makes
the mirror neurons light up. Simple tricks used by street magicians and
con-artists - script kiddies of the mind. Only works against soft targets.

Below behavior, ideology. Surprised to see religion and states listed here
- both applications consuming the API of currency. Have enough money - or
appear to - and anything can be leveraged. Belief in the value of currency
is universal. Riyals, dollars, euros, bitcoin, shiny rocks and gems, common
stock, Yazidi slaves, it doesn't matter - given the right amount of the
right commodity, you can get what you want. Even easier if it's not real -
counterfeit bills, gold paint, or better yet fake commas on a screen.
Transfer complete, here is your passphrase.

Below ideology, biology. Dopamine pathways can be trained to respond to
stimuli without ever leaving kernelspace. Salt, fat, cum, phenethylamines,
sucrose. With the right amount of give and take, control is as easy as
ringing a bell.

And if your target is an asexual billionaire vegan with a TA-CD vaccination?

The answer is simple - scopolamine and DMSO.
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From juan.g71 at gmail.com  Thu Oct 22 12:33:31 2015
From: juan.g71 at gmail.com (Juan)
Date: Thu, 22 Oct 2015 16:33:31 -0300
Subject: State of the art in malware owning human?
In-Reply-To: <CADy1Ce4fHKtg=TA235Xep8JhTbxF2GaP=khO7Tmu3NTV=nc6fA@mail.gmail.com>
References: <20151022090553.GA2546@sivokote.iziade.m$>
 <CADy1Ce4fHKtg=TA235Xep8JhTbxF2GaP=khO7Tmu3NTV=nc6fA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <56293894.e3568c0a.ae64f.ffffecc1@mx.google.com>

On Thu, 22 Oct 2015 06:50:20 -0700
Kurt Buff <kurt.buff at gmail.com> wrote:

> "From each according to his ability, to each according to his need."
> and
> "We are all God's children"
> and
> "Mohamed is his prophet"


	those are just samples. The general category of malware is
	called 'statism' (and theocracy is the oldest form of
	government) 

	so called 'representative' government is a particularly nasty
	strain.


	More than a few people even in this list got the infection.

 

> 
> Worst malware ever. Makes people violent and unable to comprehend
> reality.
> 
> Kurt
> 
> On Thu, Oct 22, 2015 at 2:05 AM, Georgi Guninski
> <guninski at guninski.com> wrote:
> > What is the state of the art in malware owning the human, not just
> > the box?
> >
> > ...or DoS the human, making them inoperable.
> >
> > Maybe it is something like 25th frame, possibly with auditory
> > vector.
> >
> > Or better remote hypnosis.
> >
> > IIRC on some forum about epilepsy someone posted ``weird image''
> > which causes severe crisis in some epileptics of certain form.
> >
> > Some info about 25th frame:
> > http://strategicstudiesinstitute.army.mil/pubs/parameters/articles/98spring/thomas.htm
> > ---
> > According to Solntsev, one computer virus capable of affecting a
> > person's psyche is Russian Virus 666. It manifests itself in every
> > 25th frame of a visual display, where it produces a combination of
> > colors that allegedly put computer operators into a trance. The
> > subconscious perception of the new pattern eventually results in
> > arrhythmia of the heart. Other Russian computer specialists, not
> > just Solntsev, talk openly about this "25th frame effect" and its
> > ability to subtly manage a computer user's perceptions. The purpose
> > of this technique is to inject a thought into the viewer's
> > subconscious. It may remind some of the subliminal advertising
> > controversy in the United States in the late 1950s.
> > ---
> >
> > F-secure claims:
> > Russian Virus 666
> > There is no virus by this name.
> >
> > IIRC spammers used it for spam in animated images
> >
> > http://edition.cnn.com/WORLD/9712/17/video.seizures.update/
> > Japanese cartoon triggers seizures in hundreds of children
> >




From juan.g71 at gmail.com  Thu Oct 22 12:46:52 2015
From: juan.g71 at gmail.com (Juan)
Date: Thu, 22 Oct 2015 16:46:52 -0300
Subject: [tor-dev] Effect of padding on end to end correlation false
 positive rate
In-Reply-To: <562740D2.30902@riseup.net>
References: <56214E72.5050508@sky-ip.org>
 <CAD2Ti2_1qj1nEPVcTnD1u3d6Ftuo=U2kbrmiNyAXd=HFmQBdwg@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAJVRA1QTTadN2r2h4F0urHe45Z7uE+Y8SC2-TMi+tWB3N-sPEA@mail.gmail.com>
 <5626c839.9c16370a.82fa3.ffffb50e@mx.google.com>
 <5626E522.2080702@riseup.net>
 <5626e866.8a278c0a.a9353.ffffc0cc@mx.google.com>
 <5626F076.9060700@riseup.net>
 <56272aa7.97818c0a.1cfdb.ffffd60d@mx.google.com>
 <562740D2.30902@riseup.net>
Message-ID: <56293bb5.2a568c0a.29d73.ffffebbc@mx.google.com>

On Wed, 21 Oct 2015 01:37:54 -0600
Mirimir <mirimir at riseup.net> wrote:

> On 10/21/2015 12:09 AM, Juan wrote:

> Tor is open-source, and collaborative. Arguably, anyone with requisite
> skills and resources can subvert it. But it is true that the Five Eyes
> have the best resources for traffic analysis.


	That's the thing. So maybe 'subvert' wasn't the best choice of
	word here, but the idea is that if you take into account
	anglo-american surveillance, then tor doesn't perform as
	advertised. 

	Using passive analysis they can undermine the tor
	network without actually 'subverting' a single coma in the code.

	(plus, they prolly can make analysis more efficient by
	tampering with traffic, again without touching the code)

 
> > 	And frankly, do you think the US military would shoot
> > 	themselves in the foot by creating something that 'aids'
> > 	'terrorists' and that they can't subvert? There's no reason
> > for them to do that so it's safe to conclude that they didn't do it.
> 
> It's hard to say. Only idiots use tools with backdoors.


	That really depends on the nature of the backdoor. It's
	certainly risky to backdoor something, but it's less risky if
	the people who create the backdoor (say the nsa) are the same
	and only people who have the resources to access it. And the
	'backdoor' may be simply a less-than-ideal system...like tor.




> > 	Freenet is truly p2p (unlike tor), the storage is
> > 	decentralized (unlike tor) and the developers don't get
> > 	millions of dollars from the pentagon (as far as I know). 
> 
> Well, adversaries can use malicious P2P nodes. It's true that Freenet
> is about the same size as Tor (http://www.asksteved.com/stats/ vs
> https://metrics.torproject.org/networksize.html). But with Tor, what's
> relevant is the number of possible circuits. With ~1700 entry guards,
> ~1000 exit relays and ~2300 non-entry/non-exit relays, about four
> billion distinct circuits are possible.

	But faster relays are used more frequently no?

	Anyway, my point was that as far as publishing documents go
	freenet looks like a a better and more serious design than tor. 



> 
> > 	Now, I wouldn't actually recomend freenet because I haven't
> > 	done much homework regarding it, but at least it deserves a 
> > 	mention I think. 
> 
> Yes, it does. But neither it nor I2P provide anonymous access to the
> general Internet.
> 




From juan.g71 at gmail.com  Thu Oct 22 13:05:41 2015
From: juan.g71 at gmail.com (Juan)
Date: Thu, 22 Oct 2015 17:05:41 -0300
Subject: USA government debt ceiling
In-Reply-To: <CAOsGNSTRQHzJOF5DkgpLHsSDgg-n_P1BsDX+xDqenQmqtCr7=g@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAOsGNSSpW6H5POz=xF5NpNc6Xvie_XoTStKtgDnThrE5Ys9Uqw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAOsGNSR9tXKM9+nPvJgT_7qESJPSJ9JuXWyeNFqBoPUCFEY3Bg@mail.gmail.com>
 <20151005124251.GC2489@sivokote.iziade.m$>
 <CAOsGNSSvyQc8LGkoYMVWpqXB0QCj=gOeoXrPXL7Max=Wtu5NaQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <20151011070745.GA2610@sivokote.iziade.m$>
 <CAHWD2rKMAE7tH+t4B-P9XEPmTSRsuqEmQ8NVQKOFi2ww3uh_CQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <20151014122254.GC2599@sivokote.iziade.m$>
 <CAGRDzQUBoV9qMUf845rHztVhavo9FWkPP=qpY4T_C-P9RX=T8A@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAD2Ti28cyRmHM-AJ=hHKRge-1UrK+ntSzL23nJ26UZr1sWNssA@mail.gmail.com>
 <5626bed1.c91d8c0a.d971.ffffadad@mx.google.com>
 <5626EB3E.5040306@riseup.net>
 <562709a9.d1598c0a.29bc1.ffffcd24@mx.google.com>
 <CAOsGNSTRQHzJOF5DkgpLHsSDgg-n_P1BsDX+xDqenQmqtCr7=g@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <5629401e.dccb370a.9b798.ffffed99@mx.google.com>

On Wed, 21 Oct 2015 09:06:40 +0000
Zenaan Harkness <zen at freedbms.net> wrote:

> On 10/21/15, Juan <juan.g71 at gmail.com> wrote:
> 
> > 	The chinese government isn't moving away from fiat although
> > 	there seems to be rumours of them linking the yuan to gold
> > 	somehow.
> 
> "September 10th, 2015: China’s Shanghai Gold Exchange announces that
> physical gold bullion will be allowed to be used as collateral on
> future’s contracts, beginning September 29th, 2015. “This development
> is an important one for the gold market and is bullish for gold. It
> shows, once again, that gold is slowly but surely becoming a cash
> equivalent and as money again. Gold’s re-monetisation in the
> international financial and monetary system continues.”


	That's an interesting piece of news. 

	Regardless, I don't think any government is going to rock the
	boat too much or promote a system that restricts their own
	ability to inflate (i.e. to steal).





>
> 
> We'll see in time. I have no doubt they (USG/Federal Reserve Bank) can
> QE (print money) their way for another round or three, the only
> question is what is in their (maximal) interest - reset now, or QE
> again.


	Yep. The dollar economy is big and it's impossible to make any
	definitive forecast about its collapse. 



> 
> 
> > 	As to common people in china, maybe they are buying more
> > 	bitcoins (and gold?), but the amount of fiat that's been
> > turned into btc isn't exactly big, I would guess. So, saying that
> > the chinese are shifting into bitcoin seems overly optimistic.
> 
> "Diversification" in the face of a soon to collapse world reserve
> currency, USD, makes sense though.

	Yes.



> 
> http://www.zerohedge.com/news/2015-10-09/another-petro-state-throws-towel-last-nail-petrodollar-coffin
> 
> Z
> 





From dan at geer.org  Thu Oct 22 17:19:24 2015
From: dan at geer.org (dan at geer.org)
Date: Thu, 22 Oct 2015 20:19:24 -0400
Subject: [tor-dev] Effect of padding on end to end correlation false
 positive rate
In-Reply-To: Your message of "Tue, 20 Oct 2015 19:55:02 -0600."
 <5626F076.9060700@riseup.net>
Message-ID: <20151023001924.57246A06E38@palinka.tinho.net>

While considering whether A & B are alternate personas
of the same person, you might like this paper

"De-anonymizing Programmers via Code Stylometry"
www.princeton.edu/~aylinc/papers/caliskan-islam_deanonymizing.pdf

as seen at the 2015 USENIX Security Symposium.

--dan




From pgut001 at cs.auckland.ac.nz  Thu Oct 22 16:12:21 2015
From: pgut001 at cs.auckland.ac.nz (Peter Gutmann)
Date: Thu, 22 Oct 2015 23:12:21 +0000
Subject: [FORGED] Re: State of the art in malware owning human?
In-Reply-To: <CADJYzxJ3XN9mAWXUfeiMz7z+1P8j8h3pj8EsrMyK_7VkFTYbPA@mail.gmail.com>
References: <20151022090553.GA2546@sivokote.iziade.m$>
 <CADy1Ce4fHKtg=TA235Xep8JhTbxF2GaP=khO7Tmu3NTV=nc6fA@mail.gmail.com>
 <56293894.e3568c0a.ae64f.ffffecc1@mx.google.com>,
 <CADJYzxJ3XN9mAWXUfeiMz7z+1P8j8h3pj8EsrMyK_7VkFTYbPA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <9A043F3CF02CD34C8E74AC1594475C73F4B416A4@uxcn10-5.UoA.auckland.ac.nz>

Rich Jones <rich at openwatch.net> writes:

>For behavior, consult old Phracks on neuro-lingustic programming. 

After that, consult "Science and Pseudoscience in Clinical Psychology" on NLP.

Heck, just consult it anyway, it's a great read.

Peter.




From coderman at gmail.com  Fri Oct 23 01:59:51 2015
From: coderman at gmail.com (coderman)
Date: Fri, 23 Oct 2015 01:59:51 -0700
Subject: list sans smtp spillage
Message-ID: <CAJVRA1Qsx_vpf8ppOActj0OHhaMnK-bHOJc2ycnxUc365F0iag@mail.gmail.com>

http://pastebin.com/Wy98Q3TJ

---

Email filter update.
This is a list with trolls, troublemakers and other nuts mostly on the
security mailing lists. Since I filter those the discussion is much
more civil. And with far less conspiracies.

mk at dee.su
nadim at nadim.cc
adrelanos at riseup.net
l at odewijk.nl
rysiek at hackerspace.pl
@koplitz.net
jerzyma at interia.eu
theusernameiwantistaken at gmail.com
eugen at leitl.org
ruiz at iit.edu
anonymous.coward at posteo.de
njloof at gmail.com
vladimir.teplouhov at gmail.com
joebtfsplk at gmx.com
silentswede2 at gmail.com
elrippo at elrippoisland.net
electromagnetize at gmail.com
coderman at gmail.com
data at kuketz.de
joseph at josephholsten.com
an0n102968 at gmail.com
torance.ca at gmail.com
risko at csl.sri.com
jamesdbell8 at yahoo.com
jamesd at echeque.com
author at anonymousbitcoinbook.com
ricardcolorado at gmail.com
kattitov at yandex.com
themindwaregroup at gmail.com
dahal.saurav at gmail.com
maimun.rizal at googlemail.com
muhammed_gokce at hotmail.com
unknown at pgpru.com
juan.g71 at gmail.com
mark.mccarron at live.co.uk
crypto at jpunix.net
waywardgeek at gmail.com
ideasbuenas at gmail.com
zen at freedbms.net
scott at arciszewski.me
K.Chambers at openmailbox.org
blade.vp2020 at gmail.com
davidvargas1 at mac.com
lakbk89 at gmail.com
maestro at openmailbox.org
riley at openmailbox.org
shiretoko at web.de
adfeno at openmailbox.org
amenex at amenex.com
calmstorm at openmailbox.org
chaosesqueteam at yahoo.com
christian at priest.com
davesamcdxv at openmailbox.org
gary02121993 at openmailbox.org
golyn at openmailbox.org
jabjabs at fastmail.com.au
janosch.adams at runbox.com
lakbk89 at openmailbox.org
lcerf at dcc.ufmg.br
mail at jadedfs.net
marioxcc.MT at yandex.com
myself600 at opmbx.org
noordinaryspider at gmail.com
onpon4 at riseup.net
rafi.panoyan at hotmail.fr
rainteller at eemajine.com
t8mf4nu6lizp at canaglie.net
thunderstormpolska at o2.pl
tomlukeywood at fastmail.co.uk
a1716479 at trbvm.com
cyrus_the_great at riseup.net
gnorcie at umail.iu.edu
kevinsisco61784 at gmail.com
whonixqubes at riseup.net
afalex169 at gmail.com
andre76 at fastmail.fm
a.krey at gmx.de
komachi at openmailbox.org
ATorUser at mail2tor.com
vitteaymeric at gmail.com
art.istom at yandex.ru
list at sysfu.com
patrick-mailinglists at whonix.org
mike at confidantmail.org
martink at posteo.de
luisg at riseup.net
lynX at time.to.get.psyced.org
tor at tengu.ch
dewaj at garlic.com
grarpamp at gmail.com
burdges at gmail.com
KevinB at ruggedinbox.com
ter.one.leeboi at hush.com
lpwzi9i84 at use.startmail.com
adrienj at adrienj.com
domenico.andreoli at linux.com
isacdaavid at gmail.com
leemalek at Safe-mail.net
mbm at rlogin.net
mirimir at riseup.net
tlbean at tlbean.com
tbiehn at gmail.com
torbirdyfoo at ruggedinbox.com
aiwanski at cox.net
zolar1 at hush.com
twim at riseup.net
hha4491 at web.de
watau at t-online.de
tim at teamsammut.com
when2plus2is5 at riseup.net
schoen at eff.org
mraboqht at gmail.com
iznogoud at neomailbox.ch
akademiker1 at googlemail.com
alexiswattel at gmail.com
123bltc at gmail.com
barberb at barberb.com
ben at bentasker.co.uk
blobby at openmailbox.org
BM-2cUqBqHFVDHuY34ZcpL3PNgkpLUEEer8ev at bitmessage.ch
cinaed.simson at gmail.com
darlingsuzy444 at gmail.com
domi3821 at gmail.com
drhardy84 at gmail.com
micaroni at gmail.com
jgoltz at mail.nih.gov
goofyzrnssm at vfemail.net
beatthebastards at inbox.com
jancsika at yahoo.com
JS733NknRj6J at protonmail.com
libertas at mykolab.com
marcoskehl at hotmail.com
max.o.bond at gmail.com
michaelballriseup at gmail.com
nasunorahl at gmail.com
naz at gassiep.com
paul at crable.us
paul.syverson at nrl.navy.mil
rekha13102 at iiitd.ac.in
rishabn.uci at gmail.com
social at sponsor-privacy.com
teor2345 at gmail.com
thomaswhite at riseup.net


---end-cut---

[ this encountered through paste crawlers searching for email addrs;
not always indicative of a spill it turns out! ]

best regards,




From mirimir at riseup.net  Fri Oct 23 02:24:03 2015
From: mirimir at riseup.net (Mirimir)
Date: Fri, 23 Oct 2015 03:24:03 -0600
Subject: [tor-dev] Effect of padding on end to end correlation false
 positive rate
In-Reply-To: <56293bb5.2a568c0a.29d73.ffffebbc@mx.google.com>
References: <56214E72.5050508@sky-ip.org>
 <CAD2Ti2_1qj1nEPVcTnD1u3d6Ftuo=U2kbrmiNyAXd=HFmQBdwg@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAJVRA1QTTadN2r2h4F0urHe45Z7uE+Y8SC2-TMi+tWB3N-sPEA@mail.gmail.com>
 <5626c839.9c16370a.82fa3.ffffb50e@mx.google.com>
 <5626E522.2080702@riseup.net>
 <5626e866.8a278c0a.a9353.ffffc0cc@mx.google.com>
 <5626F076.9060700@riseup.net>
 <56272aa7.97818c0a.1cfdb.ffffd60d@mx.google.com> <562740D2.30902@riseup.net>
 <56293bb5.2a568c0a.29d73.ffffebbc@mx.google.com>
Message-ID: <5629FCB3.204@riseup.net>

On 10/22/2015 01:46 PM, Juan wrote:
> On Wed, 21 Oct 2015 01:37:54 -0600
> Mirimir <mirimir at riseup.net> wrote:
> 
>> On 10/21/2015 12:09 AM, Juan wrote:
> 
>> Tor is open-source, and collaborative. Arguably, anyone with requisite
>> skills and resources can subvert it. But it is true that the Five Eyes
>> have the best resources for traffic analysis.
> 
> 
> 	That's the thing. So maybe 'subvert' wasn't the best choice of
> 	word here, but the idea is that if you take into account
> 	anglo-american surveillance, then tor doesn't perform as
> 	advertised. 

The Tor Project doesn't claim that Tor protects against targeted attack
by global adversaries. I could go on at length. But instead, please see
<https://www.ivpn.net/privacy-guides/adversaries-and-anonymity-systems-the-basics>.

> 	Using passive analysis they can undermine the tor
> 	network without actually 'subverting' a single coma in the code.
> 
> 	(plus, they prolly can make analysis more efficient by
> 	tampering with traffic, again without touching the code)

I don't doubt that.

>>> 	And frankly, do you think the US military would shoot
>>> 	themselves in the foot by creating something that 'aids'
>>> 	'terrorists' and that they can't subvert? There's no reason
>>> for them to do that so it's safe to conclude that they didn't do it.
>>
>> It's hard to say. Only idiots use tools with backdoors.
> 
> 
> 	That really depends on the nature of the backdoor. It's
> 	certainly risky to backdoor something, but it's less risky if
> 	the people who create the backdoor (say the nsa) are the same
> 	and only people who have the resources to access it. And the
> 	'backdoor' may be simply a less-than-ideal system...like tor.

It's possible.

>>> 	Freenet is truly p2p (unlike tor), the storage is
>>> 	decentralized (unlike tor) and the developers don't get
>>> 	millions of dollars from the pentagon (as far as I know). 
>>
>> Well, adversaries can use malicious P2P nodes. It's true that Freenet
>> is about the same size as Tor (http://www.asksteved.com/stats/ vs
>> https://metrics.torproject.org/networksize.html). But with Tor, what's
>> relevant is the number of possible circuits. With ~1700 entry guards,
>> ~1000 exit relays and ~2300 non-entry/non-exit relays, about four
>> billion distinct circuits are possible.
> 
> 	But faster relays are used more frequently no?
> 
> 	Anyway, my point was that as far as publishing documents go
> 	freenet looks like a a better and more serious design than tor. 

Maybe, but different goals. Me, I like Dissent. See Feigenbaum and Ford
(2015) Seeking Anonymity in an Internet Panopticon. Communications of
the ACM 58:10, 58-69. Preprint at <http://arxiv.org/abs/1312.5307>.

<SNIP>




From tbiehn at gmail.com  Fri Oct 23 05:35:34 2015
From: tbiehn at gmail.com (Travis Biehn)
Date: Fri, 23 Oct 2015 08:35:34 -0400
Subject: list sans smtp spillage
In-Reply-To: <20151023105601.GA2696@sivokote.iziade.m$>
References: <CAJVRA1Qsx_vpf8ppOActj0OHhaMnK-bHOJc2ycnxUc365F0iag@mail.gmail.com>
 <20151023105601.GA2696@sivokote.iziade.m$>
Message-ID: <CAKtE3zcrDwk2X-dKHFo8ynzNH0mPRJKO8mFyf7O-XUMxygFx_w@mail.gmail.com>

I'm on there ;)

*shrug*

On Fri, Oct 23, 2015 at 6:56 AM, Georgi Guninski <guninski at guninski.com>
wrote:

> On Fri, Oct 23, 2015 at 01:59:51AM -0700, coderman wrote:
> > http://pastebin.com/Wy98Q3TJ
> >
> > ---
> >
> > Email filter update.
> > This is a list with trolls, troublemakers and other nuts mostly on the
> > security mailing lists. Since I filter those the discussion is much
> > more civil. And with far less conspiracies.
> >
>
> How comes I am not on the list?
>
> Almost all internet users consider me troll AND/OR nut.
>
> btw, this list doesn't include spies and the like, right?
>



-- 
Twitter <https://twitter.com/tbiehn> | LinkedIn
<http://www.linkedin.com/in/travisbiehn> | GitHub <http://github.com/tbiehn>
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From list at sysfu.com  Fri Oct 23 08:50:32 2015
From: list at sysfu.com (Seth)
Date: Fri, 23 Oct 2015 08:50:32 -0700
Subject: list sans smtp spillage
In-Reply-To: <CAJVRA1Qsx_vpf8ppOActj0OHhaMnK-bHOJc2ycnxUc365F0iag@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAJVRA1Qsx_vpf8ppOActj0OHhaMnK-bHOJc2ycnxUc365F0iag@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <op.x6yt821ebgbjo9@laptop>

On Fri, 23 Oct 2015 01:59:51 -0700, coderman <coderman at gmail.com> wrote:

> http://pastebin.com/Wy98Q3TJ
>
> ---
>
> Email filter update.
> This is a list with trolls, troublemakers and other nuts mostly on the
> security mailing lists. Since I filter those the discussion is much
> more civil. And with far less conspiracies.

Pondering the meaning seeing as how OP's own email address is included in  
the list.

Now that's meta-trolling if I ever dun seen it.




From shelley at misanthropia.org  Fri Oct 23 09:21:01 2015
From: shelley at misanthropia.org (Shelley)
Date: Fri, 23 Oct 2015 09:21:01 -0700
Subject: list sans smtp spillage
In-Reply-To: <CAKtE3zd0HXwNYf0O8ABoz31=jekM=QcghC0YaOBVO6VDkHsrFA@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAJVRA1Qsx_vpf8ppOActj0OHhaMnK-bHOJc2ycnxUc365F0iag@mail.gmail.com>
 <op.x6yt821ebgbjo9@laptop>
 <CAKtE3zd0HXwNYf0O8ABoz31=jekM=QcghC0YaOBVO6VDkHsrFA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <20151023162045.1F3C3C00014@frontend1.nyi.internal>

On October 23, 2015 9:15:49 AM Travis Biehn <tbiehn at gmail.com> wrote:

> & eugen at leitl.org, notorious troll.
>

(I thought it was a joke/troll post & initially ignored it.)

I noticed eugen, too!  Wtf, codermange?

Jim Fucking Bell is on there, but not Cari Machet.  Riiight.

-S

> On Fri, Oct 23, 2015 at 11:50 AM, Seth <list at sysfu.com> wrote:
>
> > On Fri, 23 Oct 2015 01:59:51 -0700, coderman <coderman at gmail.com> wrote:
> >
> > http://pastebin.com/Wy98Q3TJ
> >>
> >> ---
> >>
> >> Email filter update.
> >> This is a list with trolls, troublemakers and other nuts mostly on the
> >> security mailing lists. Since I filter those the discussion is much
> >> more civil. And with far less conspiracies.
> >>
> >
> > Pondering the meaning seeing as how OP's own email address is included in
> > the list.
> >
> > Now that's meta-trolling if I ever dun seen it.
> >
>
>
>
> --
> Twitter <https://twitter.com/tbiehn> | LinkedIn
> <http://www.linkedin.com/in/travisbiehn> | GitHub <http://github.com/tbiehn>
> | TravisBiehn.com <http://www.travisbiehn.com> | Google Plus
> <https://plus.google.com/+TravisBiehn>





From drwho at virtadpt.net  Fri Oct 23 10:08:54 2015
From: drwho at virtadpt.net (The Doctor)
Date: Fri, 23 Oct 2015 10:08:54 -0700
Subject: list sans smtp spillage
In-Reply-To: <20151023105601.GA2696@sivokote.iziade.m$>
References: <CAJVRA1Qsx_vpf8ppOActj0OHhaMnK-bHOJc2ycnxUc365F0iag@mail.gmail.com>
 <20151023105601.GA2696@sivokote.iziade.m$>
Message-ID: <20151023100854.ca4c47bdc2e8d167e719ce30@virtadpt.net>

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA512

On Fri, 23 Oct 2015 13:56:01 +0300
Georgi Guninski <guninski at guninski.com> wrote:

> btw, this list doesn't include spies and the like, right?

Perish the thought!

- -- 
The Doctor [412/724/301/703/415] [ZS]

PGP: 0x807B17C1 / 7960 1CDC 85C9 0B63 8D9F  DD89 3BD8 FF2B 807B 17C1
WWW: https://drwho.virtadpt.net/

"Morbilus, look -- it's Unicron!"

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From jya at pipeline.com  Fri Oct 23 08:52:28 2015
From: jya at pipeline.com (John Young)
Date: Fri, 23 Oct 2015 11:52:28 -0400
Subject: Cryptography's Role in Securing the Information Society, May 2, 1996
Message-ID: <E1Zpech-0005l1-Vk@elasmtp-galgo.atl.sa.earthlink.net>

Some will remember this Clinton administration handling of cryptography,
and now its recycling of threats and assurances by Obama.

Cryptography's Role in Securing the Information Society, May 2, 1996

https://cryptome.org/jya/nrcindex.htm

Cryptome's first publication, scanned hardcopy, NRC displeased.





From themikebest at gmail.com  Fri Oct 23 09:06:03 2015
From: themikebest at gmail.com (Michael Best)
Date: Fri, 23 Oct 2015 12:06:03 -0400
Subject: list sans smtp spillage
Message-ID: <CANFTA08AMmPLR5LTP=ggi28A+o1tm46kMqcc1UQW0QsKZLUX0A@mail.gmail.com>

This was the final piece I needed to finally dox coderman. I give you...


[image: Inline image 1]
<http://41.media.tumblr.com/4d9ff52281bd4384afa0f30d12d1d323/tumblr_nrtw37BX6E1uadq5wo1_500.jpg>

Abed Nadir.

#SixSeasonsAndAMovie

*Seth* list at sysfu.com
<list%40sysfu.com?Subject=Re%3A%20list%20sans%20smtp%20spillage&In-Reply-To=%3Cop.x6yt821ebgbjo9%40laptop%3E>

>
> *Fri Oct 23 11:50:32 EDT 2015*On Fri, 23 Oct 2015 01:59:51 -0700, coderman <coderman at gmail.com> wrote:
> >* http://pastebin.com/Wy98Q3TJ <http://pastebin.com/Wy98Q3TJ>
> *>
> >* ---
> *>
> >* Email filter update.
> *>* This is a list with trolls, troublemakers and other nuts mostly on the
> *>* security mailing lists. Since I filter those the discussion is much
> *>* more civil. And with far less conspiracies.
> *
> Pondering the meaning seeing as how OP's own email address is included in
> the list.
> Now that's meta-trolling if I ever dun seen it.
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From tbiehn at gmail.com  Fri Oct 23 09:09:51 2015
From: tbiehn at gmail.com (Travis Biehn)
Date: Fri, 23 Oct 2015 12:09:51 -0400
Subject: list sans smtp spillage
In-Reply-To: <op.x6yt821ebgbjo9@laptop>
References: <CAJVRA1Qsx_vpf8ppOActj0OHhaMnK-bHOJc2ycnxUc365F0iag@mail.gmail.com>
 <op.x6yt821ebgbjo9@laptop>
Message-ID: <CAKtE3zd0HXwNYf0O8ABoz31=jekM=QcghC0YaOBVO6VDkHsrFA@mail.gmail.com>

& eugen at leitl.org, notorious troll.

On Fri, Oct 23, 2015 at 11:50 AM, Seth <list at sysfu.com> wrote:

> On Fri, 23 Oct 2015 01:59:51 -0700, coderman <coderman at gmail.com> wrote:
>
> http://pastebin.com/Wy98Q3TJ
>>
>> ---
>>
>> Email filter update.
>> This is a list with trolls, troublemakers and other nuts mostly on the
>> security mailing lists. Since I filter those the discussion is much
>> more civil. And with far less conspiracies.
>>
>
> Pondering the meaning seeing as how OP's own email address is included in
> the list.
>
> Now that's meta-trolling if I ever dun seen it.
>



-- 
Twitter <https://twitter.com/tbiehn> | LinkedIn
<http://www.linkedin.com/in/travisbiehn> | GitHub <http://github.com/tbiehn>
| TravisBiehn.com <http://www.travisbiehn.com> | Google Plus
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From shelley at misanthropia.org  Fri Oct 23 12:29:45 2015
From: shelley at misanthropia.org (Shelley)
Date: Fri, 23 Oct 2015 12:29:45 -0700
Subject: list sans smtp spillage
In-Reply-To: <2089808716.2232367.1445627307627.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com>
References: <20151023162045.1F3C3C00014@frontend1.nyi.internal>
 <2089808716.2232367.1445627307627.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <20151023192928.D54F0C00012@frontend1.nyi.internal>


On October 23, 2015 12:11:27 PM jim bell <jdb10987 at yahoo.com> wrote:

>   From: Shelley <shelley at misanthropia.org>
> On October 23, 2015 9:15:49 AM Travis Biehn <tbiehn at gmail.com> wrote:
>
> >> & eugen at leitl.org, notorious troll.
>
> >(I thought it was a joke/troll post & initially ignored it.)
> >I noticed eugen, too!  Wtf, codermange?
> >Jim Fucking Bell is on there, but not Cari Machet.  Riiight.
>
>
> I have arrived!!!!   ("NO ONE expects Jim Bell!!!!")    (with apologies to 
> Monty Python)            Jim Bell

Now we just have to figure out how to fit your name into the Inquisition song!

-S





From tbiehn at gmail.com  Fri Oct 23 09:29:56 2015
From: tbiehn at gmail.com (Travis Biehn)
Date: Fri, 23 Oct 2015 12:29:56 -0400
Subject: list sans smtp spillage
In-Reply-To: <20151023162045.1F3C3C00014@frontend1.nyi.internal>
References: <CAJVRA1Qsx_vpf8ppOActj0OHhaMnK-bHOJc2ycnxUc365F0iag@mail.gmail.com>
 <op.x6yt821ebgbjo9@laptop>
 <CAKtE3zd0HXwNYf0O8ABoz31=jekM=QcghC0YaOBVO6VDkHsrFA@mail.gmail.com>
 <20151023162045.1F3C3C00014@frontend1.nyi.internal>
Message-ID: <CAKtE3zef3OP8L5pWxRi2qnccZ=kiVZSOg8xVuY8O0ZhC+5-+vA@mail.gmail.com>

On Fri, Oct 23, 2015 at 12:21 PM, Shelley <shelley at misanthropia.org> wrote:

> On October 23, 2015 9:15:49 AM Travis Biehn <tbiehn at gmail.com> wrote:
>
> & eugen at leitl.org, notorious troll.
>>
>>
> (I thought it was a joke/troll post & initially ignored it.)
>
> I noticed eugen, too!  Wtf, codermange?
>
> Jim Fucking Bell is on there, but not Cari Machet.  Riiight.
>
> -S
>

I'm going to start publishing my own list of trolls & crazies, full of the
most high signal people on lists - to exclude the type of people who apply
e-mail block lists from unknown sources from those conversations.

-Travis


>
> On Fri, Oct 23, 2015 at 11:50 AM, Seth <list at sysfu.com> wrote:
>>
>> > On Fri, 23 Oct 2015 01:59:51 -0700, coderman <coderman at gmail.com>
>> wrote:
>> >
>> > http://pastebin.com/Wy98Q3TJ
>> >>
>> >> ---
>> >>
>> >> Email filter update.
>> >> This is a list with trolls, troublemakers and other nuts mostly on the
>> >> security mailing lists. Since I filter those the discussion is much
>> >> more civil. And with far less conspiracies.
>> >>
>> >
>> > Pondering the meaning seeing as how OP's own email address is included
>> in
>> > the list.
>> >
>> > Now that's meta-trolling if I ever dun seen it.
>> >
>>
>>
>>
>> --
>> Twitter <https://twitter.com/tbiehn> | LinkedIn
>> <http://www.linkedin.com/in/travisbiehn> | GitHub <
>> http://github.com/tbiehn>
>> | TravisBiehn.com <http://www.travisbiehn.com> | Google Plus
>> <https://plus.google.com/+TravisBiehn>
>>
>
>
>


-- 
Twitter <https://twitter.com/tbiehn> | LinkedIn
<http://www.linkedin.com/in/travisbiehn> | GitHub <http://github.com/tbiehn>
| TravisBiehn.com <http://www.travisbiehn.com> | Google Plus
<https://plus.google.com/+TravisBiehn>
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From guninski at guninski.com  Fri Oct 23 03:56:01 2015
From: guninski at guninski.com (Georgi Guninski)
Date: Fri, 23 Oct 2015 13:56:01 +0300
Subject: list sans smtp spillage
In-Reply-To: <CAJVRA1Qsx_vpf8ppOActj0OHhaMnK-bHOJc2ycnxUc365F0iag@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAJVRA1Qsx_vpf8ppOActj0OHhaMnK-bHOJc2ycnxUc365F0iag@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <20151023105601.GA2696@sivokote.iziade.m$>

On Fri, Oct 23, 2015 at 01:59:51AM -0700, coderman wrote:
> http://pastebin.com/Wy98Q3TJ
> 
> ---
> 
> Email filter update.
> This is a list with trolls, troublemakers and other nuts mostly on the
> security mailing lists. Since I filter those the discussion is much
> more civil. And with far less conspiracies.
>

How comes I am not on the list?

Almost all internet users consider me troll AND/OR nut.

btw, this list doesn't include spies and the like, right?




From juan.g71 at gmail.com  Fri Oct 23 11:15:13 2015
From: juan.g71 at gmail.com (Juan)
Date: Fri, 23 Oct 2015 15:15:13 -0300
Subject: list sans smtp spillage
In-Reply-To: <CAJVRA1Qsx_vpf8ppOActj0OHhaMnK-bHOJc2ycnxUc365F0iag@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAJVRA1Qsx_vpf8ppOActj0OHhaMnK-bHOJc2ycnxUc365F0iag@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <562a77b7.57d1370a.187c.ffff8a70@mx.google.com>

On Fri, 23 Oct 2015 01:59:51 -0700
coderman <coderman at gmail.com> wrote:

> http://pastebin.com/Wy98Q3TJ
> 

> l at odewijk.nl
> rysiek at hackerspace.pl


> paul.syverson at nrl.navy.mil


	lolwut




From rysiek at hackerspace.pl  Fri Oct 23 08:15:08 2015
From: rysiek at hackerspace.pl (rysiek)
Date: Fri, 23 Oct 2015 17:15:08 +0200
Subject: list sans smtp spillage
In-Reply-To: <CAKtE3zcrDwk2X-dKHFo8ynzNH0mPRJKO8mFyf7O-XUMxygFx_w@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAJVRA1Qsx_vpf8ppOActj0OHhaMnK-bHOJc2ycnxUc365F0iag@mail.gmail.com>
 <20151023105601.GA2696@sivokote.iziade.m$>
 <CAKtE3zcrDwk2X-dKHFo8ynzNH0mPRJKO8mFyf7O-XUMxygFx_w@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <3168574.cT6Blrobma@lapuntu>

Dnia piątek, 23 października 2015 08:35:34 Travis Biehn pisze:
> I'm on there ;)

Hi-five!

-- 
Pozdrawiam,
Michał "rysiek" Woźniak

Zmieniam klucz GPG :: http://rys.io/pl/147
GPG Key Transition :: http://rys.io/en/147
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From guninski at guninski.com  Fri Oct 23 08:33:33 2015
From: guninski at guninski.com (Georgi Guninski)
Date: Fri, 23 Oct 2015 18:33:33 +0300
Subject: list sans smtp spillage
In-Reply-To: <CAKtE3zcrDwk2X-dKHFo8ynzNH0mPRJKO8mFyf7O-XUMxygFx_w@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAJVRA1Qsx_vpf8ppOActj0OHhaMnK-bHOJc2ycnxUc365F0iag@mail.gmail.com>
 <20151023105601.GA2696@sivokote.iziade.m$>
 <CAKtE3zcrDwk2X-dKHFo8ynzNH0mPRJKO8mFyf7O-XUMxygFx_w@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <20151023153333.GC2696@sivokote.iziade.m$>

On Fri, Oct 23, 2015 at 08:35:34AM -0400, Travis Biehn wrote:
> I'm on there ;)
> 

sufficiently advanced _crazy_ trolling is indistinguishable from thought
leadership -- twitter folklore AFAICT

> > > This is a list with trolls, troublemakers and other nuts mostly on the




From jdb10987 at yahoo.com  Fri Oct 23 12:08:27 2015
From: jdb10987 at yahoo.com (jim bell)
Date: Fri, 23 Oct 2015 19:08:27 +0000 (UTC)
Subject: list sans smtp spillage
In-Reply-To: <20151023162045.1F3C3C00014@frontend1.nyi.internal>
References: <20151023162045.1F3C3C00014@frontend1.nyi.internal>
Message-ID: <2089808716.2232367.1445627307627.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com>

  From: Shelley <shelley at misanthropia.org>
On October 23, 2015 9:15:49 AM Travis Biehn <tbiehn at gmail.com> wrote:

>> & eugen at leitl.org, notorious troll.

>(I thought it was a joke/troll post & initially ignored it.)
>I noticed eugen, too!  Wtf, codermange?
>Jim Fucking Bell is on there, but not Cari Machet.  Riiight.


I have arrived!!!!   ("NO ONE expects Jim Bell!!!!")    (with apologies to Monty Python)            Jim Bell  
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From jdb10987 at yahoo.com  Fri Oct 23 13:08:33 2015
From: jdb10987 at yahoo.com (jim bell)
Date: Fri, 23 Oct 2015 20:08:33 +0000 (UTC)
Subject: Ethereum and Auger
References: <1873940988.2286311.1445630913508.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <1873940988.2286311.1445630913508.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com>

If we are looking for interesting subjects to discuss, why not Ethereum    https://www.ethereum.org/  and Auger?  http://www.augur.net/ 
          Jim Bell
>From the Auger website:

The Augur Alpha Preview

After months of development, we are proud to release our alpha version of Augur. This version showcases the basic features of our prediction market implementation. It's by no means feature complete and certainly prone to bugs.Tell us what you think and report any issues you have using the "Feedback" link in the app.
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From mirimir at riseup.net  Fri Oct 23 19:33:45 2015
From: mirimir at riseup.net (Mirimir)
Date: Fri, 23 Oct 2015 20:33:45 -0600
Subject: list sans smtp spillage
In-Reply-To: <op.x6yt821ebgbjo9@laptop>
References: <CAJVRA1Qsx_vpf8ppOActj0OHhaMnK-bHOJc2ycnxUc365F0iag@mail.gmail.com>
 <op.x6yt821ebgbjo9@laptop>
Message-ID: <562AEE09.2080306@riseup.net>

On 10/23/2015 09:50 AM, Seth wrote:
> On Fri, 23 Oct 2015 01:59:51 -0700, coderman <coderman at gmail.com> wrote:
> 
>> http://pastebin.com/Wy98Q3TJ
>>
>> ---
>>
>> Email filter update.
>> This is a list with trolls, troublemakers and other nuts mostly on the
>> security mailing lists. Since I filter those the discussion is much
>> more civil. And with far less conspiracies.
> 
> Pondering the meaning seeing as how OP's own email address is included
> in the list.

Maybe coderman was just alerting us to the list.

> Now that's meta-trolling if I ever dun seen it.

What's interesting maybe is what list members are not on the list.

Georgi Guninski is not, but he's a fine upstanding nut ;)




From mirimir at riseup.net  Fri Oct 23 19:42:34 2015
From: mirimir at riseup.net (Mirimir)
Date: Fri, 23 Oct 2015 20:42:34 -0600
Subject: list sans smtp spillage
In-Reply-To: <20151023162045.1F3C3C00014@frontend1.nyi.internal>
References: <CAJVRA1Qsx_vpf8ppOActj0OHhaMnK-bHOJc2ycnxUc365F0iag@mail.gmail.com>
 <op.x6yt821ebgbjo9@laptop>
 <CAKtE3zd0HXwNYf0O8ABoz31=jekM=QcghC0YaOBVO6VDkHsrFA@mail.gmail.com>
 <20151023162045.1F3C3C00014@frontend1.nyi.internal>
Message-ID: <562AF01A.70003@riseup.net>

On 10/23/2015 10:21 AM, Shelley wrote:
> On October 23, 2015 9:15:49 AM Travis Biehn <tbiehn at gmail.com> wrote:
> 
>> & eugen at leitl.org, notorious troll.
>>
> 
> (I thought it was a joke/troll post & initially ignored it.)

What makes you think that it's not?

> I noticed eugen, too!  Wtf, codermange?

What makes you think that it's coderman's list?

> Jim Fucking Bell is on there, but not Cari Machet.  Riiight.

Maybe that tells you something, maybe not.

What set includes Jim Bell and Paul Syverson, but not Cari Machet?

Nothing coherent comes to mind.

> -S
> 
>> On Fri, Oct 23, 2015 at 11:50 AM, Seth <list at sysfu.com> wrote:
>>
>> > On Fri, 23 Oct 2015 01:59:51 -0700, coderman <coderman at gmail.com>
>> wrote:
>> >
>> > http://pastebin.com/Wy98Q3TJ
>> >>
>> >> ---
>> >>
>> >> Email filter update.
>> >> This is a list with trolls, troublemakers and other nuts mostly on the
>> >> security mailing lists. Since I filter those the discussion is much
>> >> more civil. And with far less conspiracies.
>> >>
>> >
>> > Pondering the meaning seeing as how OP's own email address is
>> included in
>> > the list.
>> >
>> > Now that's meta-trolling if I ever dun seen it.
>> >
>>
>>
>>
>> -- 
>> Twitter <https://twitter.com/tbiehn> | LinkedIn
>> <http://www.linkedin.com/in/travisbiehn> | GitHub
>> <http://github.com/tbiehn>
>> | TravisBiehn.com <http://www.travisbiehn.com> | Google Plus
>> <https://plus.google.com/+TravisBiehn>
> 
> 
> 




From zen at freedbms.net  Fri Oct 23 17:32:47 2015
From: zen at freedbms.net (Zenaan Harkness)
Date: Sat, 24 Oct 2015 00:32:47 +0000
Subject: list sans smtp spillage
In-Reply-To: <20151023162045.1F3C3C00014@frontend1.nyi.internal>
References: <CAJVRA1Qsx_vpf8ppOActj0OHhaMnK-bHOJc2ycnxUc365F0iag@mail.gmail.com>
 <op.x6yt821ebgbjo9@laptop>
 <CAKtE3zd0HXwNYf0O8ABoz31=jekM=QcghC0YaOBVO6VDkHsrFA@mail.gmail.com>
 <20151023162045.1F3C3C00014@frontend1.nyi.internal>
Message-ID: <CAOsGNSSOqKBomWFtkFPqiqy2rgxuduymOnAjiVa0ejx2UTdgTg@mail.gmail.com>

On 10/23/15, Shelley <shelley at misanthropia.org> wrote:
> On October 23, 2015 9:15:49 AM Travis Biehn <tbiehn at gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> & eugen at leitl.org, notorious troll.
>>
>
> (I thought it was a joke/troll post & initially ignored it.)
>
> I noticed eugen, too!  Wtf, codermange?
>
> Jim Fucking Bell is on there, but not Cari Machet.  Riiight.

<faint echo from my Faint Echo Oh-shit-o-Meter>
Shit! SHIIIIIT!!! Just KNEW I should have kept my VMs on separate
monitors WITH separate keyboards.
Oh shit .. Oh shit .. Oh shit ...
<sound of creaking flaw boards oddly reminiscent of a terminally
A D D youth rocking back and forth in apoplexy>




From carimachet at gmail.com  Fri Oct 23 15:27:28 2015
From: carimachet at gmail.com (Cari Machet)
Date: Sat, 24 Oct 2015 01:27:28 +0300
Subject: Suggest High-Signal Crew Ditch This for Reddit
In-Reply-To: <56244A6C.6060400@riseup.net>
References: <1445023013.32260.36.camel@europa>
 <1445209667.1226043.413553841.61C021C4@webmail.messagingengine.com>
 <56244A6C.6060400@riseup.net>
Message-ID: <CAGRDzQX0i7UFXj5QFcGAJO9rfgZyTe5vLo4zuT+r5GPucBu4Xw@mail.gmail.com>

Ever read any cia inside shit they publish to each other and recommend to
each other that they declassified? its pretty in depth psych tactic shit
they have long studied how to capture anyone/everyone


On 10/18/2015 04:07 PM, Alfie John wrote:
> the noise may be deliberate:
>
>   https://theintercept.com/2014/02/24/jtrig-manipulation/

Just watch the Israel trolls. Most are morons, but they sure make some
'noise'.

>From the article:
> GCHQ describes the purpose of JTRIG in starkly clear terms: “using
> online techniques to make something happen in the real or cyber
> world,” including “information ops (influence or disruption).”
>
+1

Influence: Search Engines so googlers see THEIR info first.

Disruption: Make the forums they infest less desirable with
disinformation, sometimes quite obvious, repeated over and over and over
again intended to (see 'influence' first and...) generally annoy users
who disagree with them using ad hom filled rants, often tail-ending
comment threads so their info is first/last seen.

RR
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From carimachet at gmail.com  Fri Oct 23 15:42:31 2015
From: carimachet at gmail.com (Cari Machet)
Date: Sat, 24 Oct 2015 01:42:31 +0300
Subject: Suggest High-Signal Crew Ditch This for Reddit
In-Reply-To: <CAGRDzQX0i7UFXj5QFcGAJO9rfgZyTe5vLo4zuT+r5GPucBu4Xw@mail.gmail.com>
References: <1445023013.32260.36.camel@europa>
 <1445209667.1226043.413553841.61C021C4@webmail.messagingengine.com>
 <56244A6C.6060400@riseup.net>
 <CAGRDzQX0i7UFXj5QFcGAJO9rfgZyTe5vLo4zuT+r5GPucBu4Xw@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAGRDzQX+VrLAB0uKfs_d-dRp0NkAOQw8dXK=f2kLt401GJ4tNQ@mail.gmail.com>

https://www.cia.gov/library/center-for-the-study-of-intelligence

Some of the 'literature' has little diagrams of psych tests even ... they
dont want to develope minds (or anything) they want to develope how yo
manipulate 'weaknesses' ... weaknesses like love and shit
On Oct 24, 2015 1:27 AM, "Cari Machet" <carimachet at gmail.com> wrote:

> Ever read any cia inside shit they publish to each other and recommend to
> each other that they declassified? its pretty in depth psych tactic shit
> they have long studied how to capture anyone/everyone
>
>
> On 10/18/2015 04:07 PM, Alfie John wrote:
> > the noise may be deliberate:
> >
> >   https://theintercept.com/2014/02/24/jtrig-manipulation/
>
> Just watch the Israel trolls. Most are morons, but they sure make some
> 'noise'.
>
> From the article:
> > GCHQ describes the purpose of JTRIG in starkly clear terms: “using
> > online techniques to make something happen in the real or cyber
> > world,” including “information ops (influence or disruption).”
> >
> +1
>
> Influence: Search Engines so googlers see THEIR info first.
>
> Disruption: Make the forums they infest less desirable with
> disinformation, sometimes quite obvious, repeated over and over and over
> again intended to (see 'influence' first and...) generally annoy users
> who disagree with them using ad hom filled rants, often tail-ending
> comment threads so their info is first/last seen.
>
> RR
>
>
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From schear.steve at gmail.com  Fri Oct 23 20:13:36 2015
From: schear.steve at gmail.com (Steven Schear)
Date: Sat, 24 Oct 2015 03:13:36 +0000
Subject: Ethereum and Auger
In-Reply-To: <1873940988.2286311.1445630913508.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com>
References: <1873940988.2286311.1445630913508.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com>
 <1873940988.2286311.1445630913508.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <CAMyHXXeH6NUnvEqaH+ersGRYjaDPCP-pUQG7FyBvu6+K2W5G0w@mail.gmail.com>

or how about Open-Transactions  reborn as Stash http://stashcrypto.com/front
<https://t.co/XQMCPo4r1v> ?

Warrant Canary creator
On Oct 23, 2015 1:13 PM, "jim bell" <jdb10987 at yahoo.com> wrote:

> If we are looking for interesting subjects to discuss, why not Ethereum
> https://www.ethereum.org/  and Auger?  http://www.augur.net/
>
>           Jim Bell
>
> From the Auger website:
> The Augur Alpha Preview
> After months of development, we are proud to release our alpha version of
> Augur. This version showcases the basic features of our prediction market
> implementation. It's by no means feature complete and certainly prone to
> bugs.
> Tell us what you think and report any issues you have using the "Feedback"
> link in the app.
>
>
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From shelley at misanthropia.org  Sat Oct 24 07:38:41 2015
From: shelley at misanthropia.org (Shelley)
Date: Sat, 24 Oct 2015 07:38:41 -0700
Subject: list sans smtp spillage
In-Reply-To: <1509a3e88e8.276e.4d489027c0c4d0c1b1ca03a1f48f1ffb@misanthropia.org>
References: <CAJVRA1Qsx_vpf8ppOActj0OHhaMnK-bHOJc2ycnxUc365F0iag@mail.gmail.com>
 <op.x6yt821ebgbjo9@laptop>
 <CAKtE3zd0HXwNYf0O8ABoz31=jekM=QcghC0YaOBVO6VDkHsrFA@mail.gmail.com>
 <20151023162045.1F3C3C00014@frontend1.nyi.internal>
 <562AF01A.70003@riseup.net>
Message-ID: <20151024143825.17CEA680172@frontend2.nyi.internal>

On October 23, 2015 7:49:17 PM Mirimir <mirimir at riseup.net> wrote:

> On 10/23/2015 10:21 AM, Shelley wrote:

> > (I thought it was a joke/troll post & initially ignored it.)
>
> What makes you think that it's not?

 > What makes you think that it's coderman's list?

I reflected upon that after I had already run my mouth about it.  It didn't 
seem to be presented as a quote, or a "look at this BS I found!" post.  As 
I said, I'd basically ignored it until others began commenting about who 
was/was not on the list.

>
> > I noticed eugen, too!  Wtf, codermange?
>
> > Jim Fucking Bell is on there, but not Cari Machet.  Riiight.
>
> Maybe that tells you something, maybe not.
>
> What set includes Jim Bell and Paul Syverson, but not Cari Machet?
>
> Nothing coherent comes to mind.

Looking at it the other way: which set might include people like coderman, 
Jim Bell, Brian Carroll... mk @ desu = liberté.  Nadim K?

If this is someone else's list, it makes no sense to me that coderman would 
be on it (if it were indeed a list of "crackpots and cranks.")  He files a 
lot of FOIA requests, and that probably irks a fair number of people with 
an interest in keeping the info hidden.

Jim: he needs no further explanation.  A glorious thorn in the side of a 
bunch of people would couldn't deserve it more.

And, so on...

It could be some kind of tactic to attempt to squelch voices of 
dissent/advocates of crypto, sure.  They've been doing such things long 
before Snowden found out about it.  Perhaps if I ask nicely, coderman will 
enlighten us as to whether this filter is a list of his own or a random 
pastebin he happened upon?

-S

>

> >
> >> On Fri, Oct 23, 2015 at 11:50 AM, Seth <list at sysfu.com> wrote:
> >>
> >> > On Fri, 23 Oct 2015 01:59:51 -0700, coderman <coderman at gmail.com>
> >> wrote:
> >> >
> >> > http://pastebin.com/Wy98Q3TJ
> >> >>
> >> >> ---
> >> >>
> >> >> Email filter update.
> >> >> This is a list with trolls, troublemakers and other nuts mostly on the
> >> >> security mailing lists. Since I filter those the discussion is much
> >> >> more civil. And with far less conspiracies.
> >> >>
> >> >
> >> > Pondering the meaning seeing as how OP's own email address is
> >> included in
> >> > the list.
> >> >
> >> > Now that's meta-trolling if I ever dun seen it.
> >> >
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> --
> >> Twitter <https://twitter.com/tbiehn> | LinkedIn
> >> <http://www.linkedin.com/in/travisbiehn> | GitHub
> >> <http://github.com/tbiehn>
> >> | TravisBiehn.com <http://www.travisbiehn.com> | Google Plus
> >> <https://plus.google.com/+TravisBiehn>
> >
> >
> >





From shelley at misanthropia.org  Sat Oct 24 08:02:49 2015
From: shelley at misanthropia.org (Shelley)
Date: Sat, 24 Oct 2015 08:02:49 -0700
Subject: list sans smtp spillage
In-Reply-To: <CAPyX2ndSR5D5W19Dix5+53H3L2kUOWe=ajZ0hBWNhFSAQpRNGA@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAJVRA1Qsx_vpf8ppOActj0OHhaMnK-bHOJc2ycnxUc365F0iag@mail.gmail.com>
 <op.x6yt821ebgbjo9@laptop>
 <CAKtE3zd0HXwNYf0O8ABoz31=jekM=QcghC0YaOBVO6VDkHsrFA@mail.gmail.com>
 <20151023162045.1F3C3C00014@frontend1.nyi.internal>
 <562AF01A.70003@riseup.net>
 <CAPyX2ndSR5D5W19Dix5+53H3L2kUOWe=ajZ0hBWNhFSAQpRNGA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <20151024150232.B345268016A@frontend2.nyi.internal>

On October 24, 2015 7:21:27 AM Mark Steward <marksteward at gmail.com> wrote:

> This is a decent list of people to plonk if you're a cryptography
> researcher trying to keep up with the state of the art without being
> bombarded by tangential political in-fighting and vanity posts. If you do
> want to opt into the latter, you'd join cpunks.
>
>
> Mark

And yet, here you are ;)  It's okay, we have ample space to accommodate you 
here in the gutter.

-S





From list at sysfu.com  Sat Oct 24 08:11:58 2015
From: list at sysfu.com (Seth)
Date: Sat, 24 Oct 2015 08:11:58 -0700
Subject: list sans smtp spillage
In-Reply-To: <CAKtE3zd0HXwNYf0O8ABoz31=jekM=QcghC0YaOBVO6VDkHsrFA@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAJVRA1Qsx_vpf8ppOActj0OHhaMnK-bHOJc2ycnxUc365F0iag@mail.gmail.com>
 <op.x6yt821ebgbjo9@laptop>
 <CAKtE3zd0HXwNYf0O8ABoz31=jekM=QcghC0YaOBVO6VDkHsrFA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <op.x60m58lzbgbjo9@laptop>

On Fri, 23 Oct 2015 09:09:51 -0700, Travis Biehn <tbiehn at gmail.com> wrote:

> & eugen at leitl.org, notorious troll.

Werd.

At least have the common decency to break the address list down into each  
respective 'nut' 'crank' and 'troll' category, or maybe tag them  
accordingly if deserving of more than one label.

Some people...
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From shelley at misanthropia.org  Sat Oct 24 08:47:59 2015
From: shelley at misanthropia.org (Shelley)
Date: Sat, 24 Oct 2015 08:47:59 -0700
Subject: list sans smtp spillage
In-Reply-To: <562BA1D7.1040006@openmailbox.org>
References: <CAJVRA1Qsx_vpf8ppOActj0OHhaMnK-bHOJc2ycnxUc365F0iag@mail.gmail.com>
 <op.x6yt821ebgbjo9@laptop>
 <CAKtE3zd0HXwNYf0O8ABoz31=jekM=QcghC0YaOBVO6VDkHsrFA@mail.gmail.com>
 <20151023162045.1F3C3C00014@frontend1.nyi.internal>
 <562AF01A.70003@riseup.net>
 <CAPyX2ndSR5D5W19Dix5+53H3L2kUOWe=ajZ0hBWNhFSAQpRNGA@mail.gmail.com>
 <20151024150232.B345268016A@frontend2.nyi.internal>
 <562BA1D7.1040006@openmailbox.org>
Message-ID: <20151024154742.F32E6680123@frontend2.nyi.internal>

On October 24, 2015 8:28:08 AM oshwm <oshwm at openmailbox.org> wrote:

>
>
> On 24/10/15 16:02, Shelley wrote:
> > On October 24, 2015 7:21:27 AM Mark Steward <marksteward at gmail.com>
> > wrote:
> >
> >> This is a decent list of people to plonk if you're a cryptography
> >> researcher trying to keep up with the state of the art without being
> >> bombarded by tangential political in-fighting and vanity posts. If
> >> you do
> >> want to opt into the latter, you'd join cpunks.
> >>
> >>
> >> Mark
> >
> > And yet, here you are ;)  It's okay, we have ample space to
> > accommodate you here in the gutter.
> >
>
> I'm sticking with the gutter, much more interesting and has a bunch of
> people who give a fuck rather than being on the 'right' lists to prop up
> their career, cunts :D
>

+1!

I like your attitude, oshwm.  Come sit in my corner of the gutter any time!

-S





From shelley at misanthropia.org  Sat Oct 24 09:08:28 2015
From: shelley at misanthropia.org (Shelley)
Date: Sat, 24 Oct 2015 09:08:28 -0700
Subject: list sans smtp spillage
In-Reply-To: <CAKtE3zdVzgAvrdQAWqae_i-4UR-RV3xkEiEHOMz_-kixngrEkA@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAJVRA1Qsx_vpf8ppOActj0OHhaMnK-bHOJc2ycnxUc365F0iag@mail.gmail.com>
 <op.x6yt821ebgbjo9@laptop>
 <CAKtE3zd0HXwNYf0O8ABoz31=jekM=QcghC0YaOBVO6VDkHsrFA@mail.gmail.com>
 <20151023162045.1F3C3C00014@frontend1.nyi.internal>
 <562AF01A.70003@riseup.net>
 <CAGRDzQVgkpg=Qo2z-zP+ojiJJes006PK3VTCX2YZDNksDp6C-A@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAKtE3zdVzgAvrdQAWqae_i-4UR-RV3xkEiEHOMz_-kixngrEkA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <20151024160813.D409B680123@frontend2.nyi.internal>

On October 24, 2015 9:01:17 AM Travis Biehn <tbiehn at gmail.com> wrote:

> Is this a call to resolve an Oedipal impulse.. Or are you referring to some
> inner 'father' manifestation?
>
> -Travis
>
> On Sat, Oct 24, 2015, 9:20 AM Cari Machet <carimachet at gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > Shelly seriously take a look at yourself and do a fucking self critique
> > your fucking ego is just bent - straighten your father fucking self out and
> > unless you can make some fucking comprehensive logical steps stfu

I hadn't seen this, Travis - thanks for the laugh!  (I don't make a habit 
of publicizing my own sieve script filters, heh.)

It reminds me of a certain Terrence & Phillip song from the South Park 
movie.  It involved uncles, though.

-S





From Rayzer at riseup.net  Sat Oct 24 10:08:46 2015
From: Rayzer at riseup.net (Razer)
Date: Sat, 24 Oct 2015 10:08:46 -0700
Subject: list sans smtp spillage
In-Reply-To: <20151024143825.17CEA680172@frontend2.nyi.internal>
References: <CAJVRA1Qsx_vpf8ppOActj0OHhaMnK-bHOJc2ycnxUc365F0iag@mail.gmail.com>
 <op.x6yt821ebgbjo9@laptop>
 <CAKtE3zd0HXwNYf0O8ABoz31=jekM=QcghC0YaOBVO6VDkHsrFA@mail.gmail.com>
 <20151023162045.1F3C3C00014@frontend1.nyi.internal>
 <562AF01A.70003@riseup.net>
 <20151024143825.17CEA680172@frontend2.nyi.internal>
Message-ID: <562BBB1E.2070409@riseup.net>

On 10/24/2015 07:38 AM, Shelley wrote:

> I noticed eugen

Did you notice, by going to the domain, 'eugen' hearts cryogenics? (and
perhaps eugen-ics?)

Someone else on this list does too. I know who. But I'm not saying.

I will say, because of that, the odds are in favor of the list belonging
to someone with an interest in cryogenics.

RR


> On October 23, 2015 7:49:17 PM Mirimir <mirimir at riseup.net> wrote:
>
>> On 10/23/2015 10:21 AM, Shelley wrote:
>
>> > (I thought it was a joke/troll post & initially ignored it.)
>>
>> What makes you think that it's not?
>
> > What makes you think that it's coderman's list?
>
> I reflected upon that after I had already run my mouth about it.  It
> didn't seem to be presented as a quote, or a "look at this BS I
> found!" post.  As I said, I'd basically ignored it until others began
> commenting about who was/was not on the list.
>
>>
>> > I noticed eugen, too!  Wtf, codermange?
>>
>> > Jim Fucking Bell is on there, but not Cari Machet.  Riiight.
>>
>> Maybe that tells you something, maybe not.
>>
>> What set includes Jim Bell and Paul Syverson, but not Cari Machet?
>>
>> Nothing coherent comes to mind.
>
> Looking at it the other way: which set might include people like
> coderman, Jim Bell, Brian Carroll... mk @ desu = liberté.  Nadim K?
>
> If this is someone else's list, it makes no sense to me that coderman
> would be on it (if it were indeed a list of "crackpots and cranks.") 
> He files a lot of FOIA requests, and that probably irks a fair number
> of people with an interest in keeping the info hidden.
>
> Jim: he needs no further explanation.  A glorious thorn in the side of
> a bunch of people would couldn't deserve it more.
>
> And, so on...
>
> It could be some kind of tactic to attempt to squelch voices of
> dissent/advocates of crypto, sure.  They've been doing such things
> long before Snowden found out about it.  Perhaps if I ask nicely,
> coderman will enlighten us as to whether this filter is a list of his
> own or a random pastebin he happened upon?
>
> -S
>
>>
>
>> >
>> >> On Fri, Oct 23, 2015 at 11:50 AM, Seth <list at sysfu.com> wrote:
>> >>
>> >> > On Fri, 23 Oct 2015 01:59:51 -0700, coderman <coderman at gmail.com>
>> >> wrote:
>> >> >
>> >> > http://pastebin.com/Wy98Q3TJ
>> >> >>
>> >> >> ---
>> >> >>
>> >> >> Email filter update.
>> >> >> This is a list with trolls, troublemakers and other nuts mostly
>> on the
>> >> >> security mailing lists. Since I filter those the discussion is
>> much
>> >> >> more civil. And with far less conspiracies.
>> >> >>
>> >> >
>> >> > Pondering the meaning seeing as how OP's own email address is
>> >> included in
>> >> > the list.
>> >> >
>> >> > Now that's meta-trolling if I ever dun seen it.
>> >> >
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>
>> >> --
>> >> Twitter <https://twitter.com/tbiehn> | LinkedIn
>> >> <http://www.linkedin.com/in/travisbiehn> | GitHub
>> >> <http://github.com/tbiehn>
>> >> | TravisBiehn.com <http://www.travisbiehn.com> | Google Plus
>> >> <https://plus.google.com/+TravisBiehn>
>> >
>> >
>> >
>
>
>


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From Rayzer at riseup.net  Sat Oct 24 10:12:08 2015
From: Rayzer at riseup.net (Razer)
Date: Sat, 24 Oct 2015 10:12:08 -0700
Subject: list sans smtp spillage
In-Reply-To: <CAKtE3zdVzgAvrdQAWqae_i-4UR-RV3xkEiEHOMz_-kixngrEkA@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAJVRA1Qsx_vpf8ppOActj0OHhaMnK-bHOJc2ycnxUc365F0iag@mail.gmail.com>
 <op.x6yt821ebgbjo9@laptop>
 <CAKtE3zd0HXwNYf0O8ABoz31=jekM=QcghC0YaOBVO6VDkHsrFA@mail.gmail.com>
 <20151023162045.1F3C3C00014@frontend1.nyi.internal>
 <562AF01A.70003@riseup.net>
 <CAGRDzQVgkpg=Qo2z-zP+ojiJJes006PK3VTCX2YZDNksDp6C-A@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAKtE3zdVzgAvrdQAWqae_i-4UR-RV3xkEiEHOMz_-kixngrEkA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <562BBBE8.6000909@riseup.net>



On 10/24/2015 08:54 AM, Travis Biehn wrote:
> Is this a call to resolve an Oedipal impulse..

0;o

Can I watch? Will it be livestreamed?

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From shelley at misanthropia.org  Sat Oct 24 10:23:11 2015
From: shelley at misanthropia.org (Shelley)
Date: Sat, 24 Oct 2015 10:23:11 -0700
Subject: list sans smtp spillage
In-Reply-To: <562BBBE8.6000909@riseup.net>
References: <CAJVRA1Qsx_vpf8ppOActj0OHhaMnK-bHOJc2ycnxUc365F0iag@mail.gmail.com>
 <op.x6yt821ebgbjo9@laptop>
 <CAKtE3zd0HXwNYf0O8ABoz31=jekM=QcghC0YaOBVO6VDkHsrFA@mail.gmail.com>
 <20151023162045.1F3C3C00014@frontend1.nyi.internal>
 <562AF01A.70003@riseup.net>
 <CAGRDzQVgkpg=Qo2z-zP+ojiJJes006PK3VTCX2YZDNksDp6C-A@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAKtE3zdVzgAvrdQAWqae_i-4UR-RV3xkEiEHOMz_-kixngrEkA@mail.gmail.com>
 <562BBBE8.6000909@riseup.net>
Message-ID: <20151024172254.4D55B680128@frontend2.nyi.internal>

On October 24, 2015 10:19:24 AM Razer <Rayzer at riseup.net> wrote:

>
> On 10/24/2015 08:54 AM, Travis Biehn wrote:
> > Is this a call to resolve an Oedipal impulse..
>
> 0;o
>
> Can I watch? Will it be livestreamed?
>

It may be presumptive of me to say so, but - Cari really isn't my type.  
(The feeling is probably mutual!)

-S





From shelley at misanthropia.org  Sat Oct 24 10:35:48 2015
From: shelley at misanthropia.org (Shelley)
Date: Sat, 24 Oct 2015 10:35:48 -0700
Subject: list sans smtp spillage
In-Reply-To: <562BBB1E.2070409@riseup.net>
References: <CAJVRA1Qsx_vpf8ppOActj0OHhaMnK-bHOJc2ycnxUc365F0iag@mail.gmail.com>
 <op.x6yt821ebgbjo9@laptop>
 <CAKtE3zd0HXwNYf0O8ABoz31=jekM=QcghC0YaOBVO6VDkHsrFA@mail.gmail.com>
 <20151023162045.1F3C3C00014@frontend1.nyi.internal>
 <562AF01A.70003@riseup.net>
 <20151024143825.17CEA680172@frontend2.nyi.internal>
 <562BBB1E.2070409@riseup.net>
Message-ID: <20151024173532.55378680088@frontend2.nyi.internal>

On October 24, 2015 10:16:35 AM Razer <Rayzer at riseup.net> wrote:

> On 10/24/2015 07:38 AM, Shelley wrote:
>
> > I noticed eugen
>
> Did you notice, by going to the domain, 'eugen' hearts cryogenics? (and
> perhaps eugen-ics?)
>
> Someone else on this list does too. I know who. But I'm not saying.
>
> I will say, because of that, the odds are in favor of the list belonging
> to someone with an interest in cryogenics.
>
> RR


I was going by eugen's posts I've seen on various lists.  He has always 
been kind and polite, and contributes useful info.

...what's wrong with cryogenics?  There are several Transhumanists on this 
list, that's just one of many areas of interest.

As for eugenics... I have chosen it for myself.  Someone pissed in my 
family's gene pool ages ago and I refuse to propagate that mess.  I wish 
other people in my family had the same view.

Looking at the state of this planet, there appear to be many other people 
for whom that would be a wise choice.  That's not for me or anyone else to 
decide, though.  Merely my opinion, which ain't worth much.

-S





From Rayzer at riseup.net  Sat Oct 24 12:29:46 2015
From: Rayzer at riseup.net (Razer)
Date: Sat, 24 Oct 2015 12:29:46 -0700
Subject: list sans smtp spillage
In-Reply-To: <CAGRDzQXhygHgTEymXUhHHS6OpWYg3M0=i6Q0Gpaa1rJzv2L3eA@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAJVRA1Qsx_vpf8ppOActj0OHhaMnK-bHOJc2ycnxUc365F0iag@mail.gmail.com>
 <op.x6yt821ebgbjo9@laptop>
 <CAKtE3zd0HXwNYf0O8ABoz31=jekM=QcghC0YaOBVO6VDkHsrFA@mail.gmail.com>
 <20151023162045.1F3C3C00014@frontend1.nyi.internal>
 <562AF01A.70003@riseup.net>
 <CAGRDzQVgkpg=Qo2z-zP+ojiJJes006PK3VTCX2YZDNksDp6C-A@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAKtE3zdVzgAvrdQAWqae_i-4UR-RV3xkEiEHOMz_-kixngrEkA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAGRDzQXhygHgTEymXUhHHS6OpWYg3M0=i6Q0Gpaa1rJzv2L3eA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <562BDC2A.8030001@riseup.net>



On 10/24/2015 10:44 AM, Cari Machet wrote:
>
> Dear travis
>
> I am an anti feminist but i started feeling like a fucker saying
> mother fucker all the time and ao i decided to call out the patriarchy
> of saying mother fucker by saying father fucker which sounds really
> fucked up ... in turkey i am yelled at for saying mother fucker and
> have had too many conversations about it ... it is the worst thing you
> can say in turkish language
>
> Language is alive and i like to fuck it
>
> Anymore questions?
>
>

Yeah... Why "Fuck you"? Fucking is fun, stress reducing, and has so many
other benefits, including monetary if you're so inclined.

If you REALLY dislike someone it's more appropriate to say "UN-FUCK you!"

RR

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From carimachet at gmail.com  Sat Oct 24 04:10:18 2015
From: carimachet at gmail.com (Cari Machet)
Date: Sat, 24 Oct 2015 14:10:18 +0300
Subject: Ethereum and Auger
In-Reply-To: <CAMyHXXeH6NUnvEqaH+ersGRYjaDPCP-pUQG7FyBvu6+K2W5G0w@mail.gmail.com>
References: <1873940988.2286311.1445630913508.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com>
 <CAMyHXXeH6NUnvEqaH+ersGRYjaDPCP-pUQG7FyBvu6+K2W5G0w@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAGRDzQWN8AtvJ8gecG7O=BV6k23ydr4HpgSSCzMnR9BngeD-=g@mail.gmail.com>

OOOOOO
On Oct 24, 2015 6:21 AM, "Steven Schear" <schear.steve at gmail.com> wrote:

> or how about Open-Transactions  reborn as Stash
> http://stashcrypto.com/front <https://t.co/XQMCPo4r1v> ?
>
> Warrant Canary creator
> On Oct 23, 2015 1:13 PM, "jim bell" <jdb10987 at yahoo.com> wrote:
>
>> If we are looking for interesting subjects to discuss, why not Ethereum
>>  https://www.ethereum.org/  and Auger?  http://www.augur.net/
>>
>>           Jim Bell
>>
>> From the Auger website:
>> The Augur Alpha Preview
>> After months of development, we are proud to release our alpha version of
>> Augur. This version showcases the basic features of our prediction market
>> implementation. It's by no means feature complete and certainly prone to
>> bugs.
>> Tell us what you think and report any issues you have using the
>> "Feedback" link in the app.
>>
>>
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From Rayzer at riseup.net  Sat Oct 24 14:34:58 2015
From: Rayzer at riseup.net (Razer)
Date: Sat, 24 Oct 2015 14:34:58 -0700
Subject: list sans smtp spillage
In-Reply-To: <CAGRDzQU8dM=0O9LAy5ngM1Ux=7US_fQJ8HLpvWqJStAO+vxuSg@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAJVRA1Qsx_vpf8ppOActj0OHhaMnK-bHOJc2ycnxUc365F0iag@mail.gmail.com>
 <op.x6yt821ebgbjo9@laptop>
 <CAKtE3zd0HXwNYf0O8ABoz31=jekM=QcghC0YaOBVO6VDkHsrFA@mail.gmail.com>
 <20151023162045.1F3C3C00014@frontend1.nyi.internal>
 <562AF01A.70003@riseup.net>
 <CAPyX2ndSR5D5W19Dix5+53H3L2kUOWe=ajZ0hBWNhFSAQpRNGA@mail.gmail.com>
 <562bda67.c2c38c0a.d87c7.1a02@mx.google.com>
 <CAPyX2ne+psLSTrJNiLi_Wg+g9S8oG-1HpxvSAdXNQfJ3=NZQMg@mail.gmail.com>
 <562be62a.46c0370a.f2fb5.1e99@mx.google.com>
 <CAGRDzQU8dM=0O9LAy5ngM1Ux=7US_fQJ8HLpvWqJStAO+vxuSg@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <562BF982.80508@riseup.net>

"Fuck" is a VERY useful word. You can even construct a complete sentence
with adjective, noun, adverb and verb from it:

" ...fucking fucker’s fucking fucked."

http://www.lrb.co.uk/v35/n21/letters#letter4

...which is all well and good if you're a motor pool mechanic in her
majesty's army during WWII.

RR

On 10/24/2015 01:58 PM, Cari Machet wrote:
>
> Fuck in this context means work with or shift ... now that shellys
> fucked up shit has made it so that my name has been massively over
> used and all my orifices have been inspected can we stop writing the
> word cari
>
> Read buckminster fuller and actually comprehend it then talk to me
> about my fucking writing form k?... get back to me in 5 or so years
> after reading bucky
>
> On Sat, 24 Oct 2015 20:57:05 +0100
> Mark Steward <marksteward at gmail.com <mailto:marksteward at gmail.com>> wrote:
>
> > On Sat, Oct 24, 2015 at 8:28 PM, Juan <juan.g71 at gmail.com
> <mailto:juan.g71 at gmail.com>> wrote:
> >
> > > On Sat, 24 Oct 2015 15:13:35 +0100
> > > Mark Steward <marksteward at gmail.com
> <mailto:marksteward at gmail.com>> wrote:
> > >
> > > > As far as I've seen, Cari doesn't spread posts to crypto-specific
> > > > mailing lists.
> > >
> > >         So why block her.
> > >
> > >
> > She's not on the list.
>
>         You're right. My mistake.
>
>
> >
> > >
> > >                 coderman's list doesn't make  sense - and obviously
> > >                 it's not 'his' blocking list since he is on the
> > > list as well.
> > >
> > >                 coderman could have explained where the fuck the
> > > list came from, but he didn't and still doesn't.
> > >
> > >
> > He did, at the bottom of the original post.
>
>
>         And you're right again. So the list is just some random,
>         nonsensical list, author unknown.
>
>         (I, like Cari, don't post to any crypto list except this one
>         and tor-talk. I'd guess then, the author is some tor-bot from
>         tor-talk...except, what kind of retard would join tor-talk and
>         block syverson?? LOL)
>
>
>
>
> J.
>
> >
> >
> > Mark
>


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From shelley at misanthropia.org  Sat Oct 24 14:52:10 2015
From: shelley at misanthropia.org (Shelley)
Date: Sat, 24 Oct 2015 14:52:10 -0700
Subject: OT fuckery, literally  [was: list sans smtp spillage]
In-Reply-To: <562BF982.80508@riseup.net>
References: <CAJVRA1Qsx_vpf8ppOActj0OHhaMnK-bHOJc2ycnxUc365F0iag@mail.gmail.com>
 <op.x6yt821ebgbjo9@laptop>
 <CAKtE3zd0HXwNYf0O8ABoz31=jekM=QcghC0YaOBVO6VDkHsrFA@mail.gmail.com>
 <20151023162045.1F3C3C00014@frontend1.nyi.internal>
 <562AF01A.70003@riseup.net>
 <CAPyX2ndSR5D5W19Dix5+53H3L2kUOWe=ajZ0hBWNhFSAQpRNGA@mail.gmail.com>
 <562bda67.c2c38c0a.d87c7.1a02@mx.google.com>
 <CAPyX2ne+psLSTrJNiLi_Wg+g9S8oG-1HpxvSAdXNQfJ3=NZQMg@mail.gmail.com>
 <562be62a.46c0370a.f2fb5.1e99@mx.google.com>
 <CAGRDzQU8dM=0O9LAy5ngM1Ux=7US_fQJ8HLpvWqJStAO+vxuSg@mail.gmail.com>
 <562BF982.80508@riseup.net>
Message-ID: <20151024215153.A0712680128@frontend2.nyi.internal>

On October 24, 2015 2:41:32 PM Razer <Rayzer at riseup.net> wrote:

> "Fuck" is a VERY useful word. You can even construct a complete sentence
> with adjective, noun, adverb and verb from it:
>
> " ...fucking fucker’s fucking fucked."
>
> http://www.lrb.co.uk/v35/n21/letters#letter4
>
> ...which is all well and good if you're a motor pool mechanic in her
> majesty's army during WWII.
>
> RR


When I lived in Manhattan, I overheard the phrase "Fuck you, ya fuckin' 
fuck!" used more than a few times (usually having to do with traffic!)

Fuck can be a useful word, I use it myself.  But the language is so vast; 
creative insults are so much more satisfying, imho.

-S





From guninski at guninski.com  Sat Oct 24 04:53:07 2015
From: guninski at guninski.com (Georgi Guninski)
Date: Sat, 24 Oct 2015 14:53:07 +0300
Subject: Ethereum and Auger
In-Reply-To: <1873940988.2286311.1445630913508.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com>
References: <1873940988.2286311.1445630913508.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com>
 <1873940988.2286311.1445630913508.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <20151024115306.GA2820@sivokote.iziade.m$>

On Fri, Oct 23, 2015 at 08:08:33PM +0000, jim bell wrote:
> If we are looking for interesting subjects to discuss, why not Ethereum    https://www.ethereum.org/  and Auger?  http://www.augur.net/ 
>           Jim Bell
> >From the Auger website:
> 
> The Augur Alpha Preview
> 
> After months of development, we are proud to release our alpha version of Augur. This version showcases the basic features of our prediction market implementation. It's by no means feature complete and certainly prone to bugs.Tell us what you think and report any issues you have using the "Feedback" link in the app.

DISCLAIMER: I quickly browsed both and well might be wrong.

Here are some remarks about augur.

Basically I don't think the crowd can make good predictions because of
lack of skills and in addition sufficiently many "crowd actors" might
turn the dice the other way.

There is a local saying that "one woman in general can give birth to a
child in approximately 9 months" BUT "9 women can't give birth to a
child in approximately one month".

Since augur mentions "market", likely the lovely NSA can put a lot of
bots on it, possibly just burning inflated virtual money.

I would recommend to them to try their skills on the lottery or on some
sport betting site ;)




From marksteward at gmail.com  Sat Oct 24 07:13:35 2015
From: marksteward at gmail.com (Mark Steward)
Date: Sat, 24 Oct 2015 15:13:35 +0100
Subject: list sans smtp spillage
In-Reply-To: <562AF01A.70003@riseup.net>
References: <CAJVRA1Qsx_vpf8ppOActj0OHhaMnK-bHOJc2ycnxUc365F0iag@mail.gmail.com>
 <op.x6yt821ebgbjo9@laptop>
 <CAKtE3zd0HXwNYf0O8ABoz31=jekM=QcghC0YaOBVO6VDkHsrFA@mail.gmail.com>
 <20151023162045.1F3C3C00014@frontend1.nyi.internal>
 <562AF01A.70003@riseup.net>
Message-ID: <CAPyX2ndSR5D5W19Dix5+53H3L2kUOWe=ajZ0hBWNhFSAQpRNGA@mail.gmail.com>

On Sat, Oct 24, 2015 at 3:42 AM, Mirimir <mirimir at riseup.net> wrote:

> On 10/23/2015 10:21 AM, Shelley wrote:
> > On October 23, 2015 9:15:49 AM Travis Biehn <tbiehn at gmail.com> wrote:
> >
> >> & eugen at leitl.org, notorious troll.
> >>
> >
> > (I thought it was a joke/troll post & initially ignored it.)
>
> What makes you think that it's not?
>
> > I noticed eugen, too!  Wtf, codermange?
>
> What makes you think that it's coderman's list?
>
> > Jim Fucking Bell is on there, but not Cari Machet.  Riiight.
>
> Maybe that tells you something, maybe not.
>
> What set includes Jim Bell and Paul Syverson, but not Cari Machet?
>
> Nothing coherent comes to mind.
>
>
As far as I've seen, Cari doesn't spread posts to crypto-specific mailing
lists.

This is a decent list of people to plonk if you're a cryptography
researcher trying to keep up with the state of the art without being
bombarded by tangential political in-fighting and vanity posts. If you do
want to opt into the latter, you'd join cpunks.


Mark
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From grarpamp at gmail.com  Sat Oct 24 12:25:14 2015
From: grarpamp at gmail.com (grarpamp)
Date: Sat, 24 Oct 2015 15:25:14 -0400
Subject: Fwd: [tor-talk] Fwd: [guardian-dev] first beta release Orfox!
In-Reply-To: <1443133988.1502007.392950337.3AF864EB@webmail.messagingengine.com>
References: <1443133988.1502007.392950337.3AF864EB@webmail.messagingengine.com>
Message-ID: <CAD2Ti2_A9_H2UOFPJDJbjcm_2FZjXap9up1ZKDxogPwRLM5pSQ@mail.gmail.com>

---------- Forwarded message ----------
From: Nathan Freitas <nathan at freitas.net>
Date: Thu, Sep 24, 2015 at 6:33 PM
Subject: [tor-talk] Fwd: [guardian-dev] first beta release Orfox!
To: tor-talk at lists.torproject.org


Orfox Beta is out on our F-Droid repos and Google Play:

https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=info.guardianproject.orfox
https://guardianproject.info/fdroid/repo

If you haven't heard about Orfox, you can read more about it here:
https://guardianproject.info/2015/06/30/orfox-aspiring-to-bring-tor-browser-to-android/

----- Original message -----
From: "Hans-Christoph Steiner" <hans at guardianproject.info>
To: Guardian Dev <guardian-dev at lists.mayfirst.org>
Subject: [guardian-dev] first beta release Orfox!
Date: Thu, 24 Sep 2015 09:35:44 +0200


At long last, we finally have the first beta release of Orfox!  Orfox is
our
replacement for Orweb as the private browser for Android.  It is based
on a
port of Tor Browser to mobile Firefox (aka Fennec).

You can get it now from our F-Droid repository.  In F-Droid, go to the
Repositories, then flick on the "Guardian Project Official Releases"
repository, and let it update the index.  Then you can search for and
install
Orfox.  If you don't already have F-Droid, get it here:

https://f-droid.org

Coming soon to Google Play also.

.hc

--
PGP fingerprint: 5E61 C878 0F86 295C E17D  8677 9F0F E587 374B BE81
https://pgp.mit.edu/pks/lookup?op=vindex&search=0x9F0FE587374BBE81
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From tbiehn at gmail.com  Sat Oct 24 08:54:40 2015
From: tbiehn at gmail.com (Travis Biehn)
Date: Sat, 24 Oct 2015 15:54:40 +0000
Subject: list sans smtp spillage
In-Reply-To: <CAGRDzQVgkpg=Qo2z-zP+ojiJJes006PK3VTCX2YZDNksDp6C-A@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAJVRA1Qsx_vpf8ppOActj0OHhaMnK-bHOJc2ycnxUc365F0iag@mail.gmail.com>
 <op.x6yt821ebgbjo9@laptop>
 <CAKtE3zd0HXwNYf0O8ABoz31=jekM=QcghC0YaOBVO6VDkHsrFA@mail.gmail.com>
 <20151023162045.1F3C3C00014@frontend1.nyi.internal>
 <562AF01A.70003@riseup.net>
 <CAGRDzQVgkpg=Qo2z-zP+ojiJJes006PK3VTCX2YZDNksDp6C-A@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAKtE3zdVzgAvrdQAWqae_i-4UR-RV3xkEiEHOMz_-kixngrEkA@mail.gmail.com>

Is this a call to resolve an Oedipal impulse.. Or are you referring to some
inner 'father' manifestation?

-Travis

On Sat, Oct 24, 2015, 9:20 AM Cari Machet <carimachet at gmail.com> wrote:

> Shelly seriously take a look at yourself and do a fucking self critique
> your fucking ego is just bent - straighten your father fucking self out and
> unless you can make some fucking comprehensive logical steps stfu
> On Oct 24, 2015 5:52 AM, "Mirimir" <mirimir at riseup.net> wrote:
>
>> On 10/23/2015 10:21 AM, Shelley wrote:
>> > On October 23, 2015 9:15:49 AM Travis Biehn <tbiehn at gmail.com> wrote:
>> >
>> >> & eugen at leitl.org, notorious troll.
>> >>
>> >
>> > (I thought it was a joke/troll post & initially ignored it.)
>>
>> What makes you think that it's not?
>>
>> > I noticed eugen, too!  Wtf, codermange?
>>
>> What makes you think that it's coderman's list?
>>
>> > Jim Fucking Bell is on there, but not Cari Machet.  Riiight.
>>
>> Maybe that tells you something, maybe not.
>>
>> What set includes Jim Bell and Paul Syverson, but not Cari Machet?
>>
>> Nothing coherent comes to mind.
>>
>> > -S
>> >
>> >> On Fri, Oct 23, 2015 at 11:50 AM, Seth <list at sysfu.com> wrote:
>> >>
>> >> > On Fri, 23 Oct 2015 01:59:51 -0700, coderman <coderman at gmail.com>
>> >> wrote:
>> >> >
>> >> > http://pastebin.com/Wy98Q3TJ
>> >> >>
>> >> >> ---
>> >> >>
>> >> >> Email filter update.
>> >> >> This is a list with trolls, troublemakers and other nuts mostly on
>> the
>> >> >> security mailing lists. Since I filter those the discussion is much
>> >> >> more civil. And with far less conspiracies.
>> >> >>
>> >> >
>> >> > Pondering the meaning seeing as how OP's own email address is
>> >> included in
>> >> > the list.
>> >> >
>> >> > Now that's meta-trolling if I ever dun seen it.
>> >> >
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>
>> >> --
>> >> Twitter <https://twitter.com/tbiehn> | LinkedIn
>> >> <http://www.linkedin.com/in/travisbiehn> | GitHub
>> >> <http://github.com/tbiehn>
>> >> | TravisBiehn.com <http://www.travisbiehn.com> | Google Plus
>> >> <https://plus.google.com/+TravisBiehn>
>> >
>> >
>> >
>>
>
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From carimachet at gmail.com  Sat Oct 24 06:12:55 2015
From: carimachet at gmail.com (Cari Machet)
Date: Sat, 24 Oct 2015 16:12:55 +0300
Subject: list sans smtp spillage
In-Reply-To: <562AF01A.70003@riseup.net>
References: <CAJVRA1Qsx_vpf8ppOActj0OHhaMnK-bHOJc2ycnxUc365F0iag@mail.gmail.com>
 <op.x6yt821ebgbjo9@laptop>
 <CAKtE3zd0HXwNYf0O8ABoz31=jekM=QcghC0YaOBVO6VDkHsrFA@mail.gmail.com>
 <20151023162045.1F3C3C00014@frontend1.nyi.internal>
 <562AF01A.70003@riseup.net>
Message-ID: <CAGRDzQVgkpg=Qo2z-zP+ojiJJes006PK3VTCX2YZDNksDp6C-A@mail.gmail.com>

Shelly seriously take a look at yourself and do a fucking self critique
your fucking ego is just bent - straighten your father fucking self out and
unless you can make some fucking comprehensive logical steps stfu
On Oct 24, 2015 5:52 AM, "Mirimir" <mirimir at riseup.net> wrote:

> On 10/23/2015 10:21 AM, Shelley wrote:
> > On October 23, 2015 9:15:49 AM Travis Biehn <tbiehn at gmail.com> wrote:
> >
> >> & eugen at leitl.org, notorious troll.
> >>
> >
> > (I thought it was a joke/troll post & initially ignored it.)
>
> What makes you think that it's not?
>
> > I noticed eugen, too!  Wtf, codermange?
>
> What makes you think that it's coderman's list?
>
> > Jim Fucking Bell is on there, but not Cari Machet.  Riiight.
>
> Maybe that tells you something, maybe not.
>
> What set includes Jim Bell and Paul Syverson, but not Cari Machet?
>
> Nothing coherent comes to mind.
>
> > -S
> >
> >> On Fri, Oct 23, 2015 at 11:50 AM, Seth <list at sysfu.com> wrote:
> >>
> >> > On Fri, 23 Oct 2015 01:59:51 -0700, coderman <coderman at gmail.com>
> >> wrote:
> >> >
> >> > http://pastebin.com/Wy98Q3TJ
> >> >>
> >> >> ---
> >> >>
> >> >> Email filter update.
> >> >> This is a list with trolls, troublemakers and other nuts mostly on
> the
> >> >> security mailing lists. Since I filter those the discussion is much
> >> >> more civil. And with far less conspiracies.
> >> >>
> >> >
> >> > Pondering the meaning seeing as how OP's own email address is
> >> included in
> >> > the list.
> >> >
> >> > Now that's meta-trolling if I ever dun seen it.
> >> >
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> --
> >> Twitter <https://twitter.com/tbiehn> | LinkedIn
> >> <http://www.linkedin.com/in/travisbiehn> | GitHub
> >> <http://github.com/tbiehn>
> >> | TravisBiehn.com <http://www.travisbiehn.com> | Google Plus
> >> <https://plus.google.com/+TravisBiehn>
> >
> >
> >
>
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From oshwm at openmailbox.org  Sat Oct 24 08:20:55 2015
From: oshwm at openmailbox.org (oshwm)
Date: Sat, 24 Oct 2015 16:20:55 +0100
Subject: list sans smtp spillage
In-Reply-To: <20151024150232.B345268016A@frontend2.nyi.internal>
References: <CAJVRA1Qsx_vpf8ppOActj0OHhaMnK-bHOJc2ycnxUc365F0iag@mail.gmail.com>
 <op.x6yt821ebgbjo9@laptop>
 <CAKtE3zd0HXwNYf0O8ABoz31=jekM=QcghC0YaOBVO6VDkHsrFA@mail.gmail.com>
 <20151023162045.1F3C3C00014@frontend1.nyi.internal>
 <562AF01A.70003@riseup.net>
 <CAPyX2ndSR5D5W19Dix5+53H3L2kUOWe=ajZ0hBWNhFSAQpRNGA@mail.gmail.com>
 <20151024150232.B345268016A@frontend2.nyi.internal>
Message-ID: <562BA1D7.1040006@openmailbox.org>



On 24/10/15 16:02, Shelley wrote:
> On October 24, 2015 7:21:27 AM Mark Steward <marksteward at gmail.com>
> wrote:
>
>> This is a decent list of people to plonk if you're a cryptography
>> researcher trying to keep up with the state of the art without being
>> bombarded by tangential political in-fighting and vanity posts. If
>> you do
>> want to opt into the latter, you'd join cpunks.
>>
>>
>> Mark
>
> And yet, here you are ;)  It's okay, we have ample space to
> accommodate you here in the gutter.
>

I'm sticking with the gutter, much more interesting and has a bunch of
people who give a fuck rather than being on the 'right' lists to prop up
their career, cunts :D

> -S
>
>




From juan.g71 at gmail.com  Sat Oct 24 12:28:36 2015
From: juan.g71 at gmail.com (Juan)
Date: Sat, 24 Oct 2015 16:28:36 -0300
Subject: list sans smtp spillage
In-Reply-To: <CAPyX2ndSR5D5W19Dix5+53H3L2kUOWe=ajZ0hBWNhFSAQpRNGA@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAJVRA1Qsx_vpf8ppOActj0OHhaMnK-bHOJc2ycnxUc365F0iag@mail.gmail.com>
 <op.x6yt821ebgbjo9@laptop>
 <CAKtE3zd0HXwNYf0O8ABoz31=jekM=QcghC0YaOBVO6VDkHsrFA@mail.gmail.com>
 <20151023162045.1F3C3C00014@frontend1.nyi.internal>
 <562AF01A.70003@riseup.net>
 <CAPyX2ndSR5D5W19Dix5+53H3L2kUOWe=ajZ0hBWNhFSAQpRNGA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <562bda67.c2c38c0a.d87c7.1a02@mx.google.com>

On Sat, 24 Oct 2015 15:13:35 +0100
Mark Steward <marksteward at gmail.com> wrote:

> As far as I've seen, Cari doesn't spread posts to crypto-specific
> mailing lists.

	So why block her.

> 
> This is a decent list of people to plonk if you're a cryptography
> researcher 


		So if you're a crypto 'researcher' (more than likely
		some kind of state parasite) you'd block the capo of the
		tor mafia, syverson? He's on the list too. People don't
		seem to have noticed.

	
		coderman's list doesn't make  sense - and obviously
		it's not 'his' blocking list since he is on the list as
		well.

		coderman could have explained where the fuck the list
		came from, but he didn't and still doesn't.

		whoever put that list together is fairly retarded
		anyway. 



> trying to keep up with the state of the art without being
> bombarded by tangential political in-fighting and vanity posts.
> If
> you do want to opt into the latter, you'd join cpunks.
> 
> 
> Mark




From juan.g71 at gmail.com  Sat Oct 24 13:18:47 2015
From: juan.g71 at gmail.com (Juan)
Date: Sat, 24 Oct 2015 17:18:47 -0300
Subject: list sans smtp spillage
In-Reply-To: <CAPyX2ne+psLSTrJNiLi_Wg+g9S8oG-1HpxvSAdXNQfJ3=NZQMg@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAJVRA1Qsx_vpf8ppOActj0OHhaMnK-bHOJc2ycnxUc365F0iag@mail.gmail.com>
 <op.x6yt821ebgbjo9@laptop>
 <CAKtE3zd0HXwNYf0O8ABoz31=jekM=QcghC0YaOBVO6VDkHsrFA@mail.gmail.com>
 <20151023162045.1F3C3C00014@frontend1.nyi.internal>
 <562AF01A.70003@riseup.net>
 <CAPyX2ndSR5D5W19Dix5+53H3L2kUOWe=ajZ0hBWNhFSAQpRNGA@mail.gmail.com>
 <562bda67.c2c38c0a.d87c7.1a02@mx.google.com>
 <CAPyX2ne+psLSTrJNiLi_Wg+g9S8oG-1HpxvSAdXNQfJ3=NZQMg@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <562be62a.46c0370a.f2fb5.1e99@mx.google.com>

On Sat, 24 Oct 2015 20:57:05 +0100
Mark Steward <marksteward at gmail.com> wrote:

> On Sat, Oct 24, 2015 at 8:28 PM, Juan <juan.g71 at gmail.com> wrote:
> 
> > On Sat, 24 Oct 2015 15:13:35 +0100
> > Mark Steward <marksteward at gmail.com> wrote:
> >
> > > As far as I've seen, Cari doesn't spread posts to crypto-specific
> > > mailing lists.
> >
> >         So why block her.
> >
> >
> She's not on the list.

	You're right. My mistake.


> 
> >
> >                 coderman's list doesn't make  sense - and obviously
> >                 it's not 'his' blocking list since he is on the
> > list as well.
> >
> >                 coderman could have explained where the fuck the
> > list came from, but he didn't and still doesn't.
> >
> >
> He did, at the bottom of the original post.


	And you're right again. So the list is just some random,
	nonsensical list, author unknown. 

	(I, like Cari, don't post to any crypto list except this one
	and tor-talk. I'd guess then, the author is some tor-bot from
	tor-talk...except, what kind of retard would join tor-talk and
	block syverson?? LOL) 




J.

> 
> 
> Mark




From carimachet at gmail.com  Sat Oct 24 07:21:12 2015
From: carimachet at gmail.com (Cari Machet)
Date: Sat, 24 Oct 2015 17:21:12 +0300
Subject: Suggest High-Signal Crew Ditch This for Reddit
In-Reply-To: <CAGRDzQX+VrLAB0uKfs_d-dRp0NkAOQw8dXK=f2kLt401GJ4tNQ@mail.gmail.com>
References: <1445023013.32260.36.camel@europa>
 <1445209667.1226043.413553841.61C021C4@webmail.messagingengine.com>
 <56244A6C.6060400@riseup.net>
 <CAGRDzQX0i7UFXj5QFcGAJO9rfgZyTe5vLo4zuT+r5GPucBu4Xw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAGRDzQX+VrLAB0uKfs_d-dRp0NkAOQw8dXK=f2kLt401GJ4tNQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAGRDzQUQ-HHkB1J3rcp0+evGjMTpUNLBBUD1=C-3bPuOSeZKgQ@mail.gmail.com>

http://www.thestranger.com/blogs/slog/2015/10/21/23042357/two-weeks-after-it-sued-the-cia-data-is-stolen-from-university-of-washington-center-for-human-rights?utm_content=buffer0f457&utm_medium=social&utm_source=twitter.com&utm_campaign=buffer

Haahahha > no sign of forced entry

Its good to know the cia really doesnt want its smelly exposed in law suits
... more lawsuits please
On Oct 24, 2015 1:42 AM, "Cari Machet" <carimachet at gmail.com> wrote:

> https://www.cia.gov/library/center-for-the-study-of-intelligence
>
> Some of the 'literature' has little diagrams of psych tests even ... they
> dont want to develope minds (or anything) they want to develope how yo
> manipulate 'weaknesses' ... weaknesses like love and shit
> On Oct 24, 2015 1:27 AM, "Cari Machet" <carimachet at gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> Ever read any cia inside shit they publish to each other and recommend to
>> each other that they declassified? its pretty in depth psych tactic shit
>> they have long studied how to capture anyone/everyone
>>
>>
>> On 10/18/2015 04:07 PM, Alfie John wrote:
>> > the noise may be deliberate:
>> >
>> >   https://theintercept.com/2014/02/24/jtrig-manipulation/
>>
>> Just watch the Israel trolls. Most are morons, but they sure make some
>> 'noise'.
>>
>> From the article:
>> > GCHQ describes the purpose of JTRIG in starkly clear terms: “using
>> > online techniques to make something happen in the real or cyber
>> > world,” including “information ops (influence or disruption).”
>> >
>> +1
>>
>> Influence: Search Engines so googlers see THEIR info first.
>>
>> Disruption: Make the forums they infest less desirable with
>> disinformation, sometimes quite obvious, repeated over and over and over
>> again intended to (see 'influence' first and...) generally annoy users
>> who disagree with them using ad hom filled rants, often tail-ending
>> comment threads so their info is first/last seen.
>>
>> RR
>>
>>
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From tbiehn at gmail.com  Sat Oct 24 11:04:53 2015
From: tbiehn at gmail.com (Travis Biehn)
Date: Sat, 24 Oct 2015 18:04:53 +0000
Subject: list sans smtp spillage
In-Reply-To: <CAGRDzQXhygHgTEymXUhHHS6OpWYg3M0=i6Q0Gpaa1rJzv2L3eA@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAJVRA1Qsx_vpf8ppOActj0OHhaMnK-bHOJc2ycnxUc365F0iag@mail.gmail.com>
 <op.x6yt821ebgbjo9@laptop>
 <CAKtE3zd0HXwNYf0O8ABoz31=jekM=QcghC0YaOBVO6VDkHsrFA@mail.gmail.com>
 <20151023162045.1F3C3C00014@frontend1.nyi.internal>
 <562AF01A.70003@riseup.net>
 <CAGRDzQVgkpg=Qo2z-zP+ojiJJes006PK3VTCX2YZDNksDp6C-A@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAKtE3zdVzgAvrdQAWqae_i-4UR-RV3xkEiEHOMz_-kixngrEkA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAGRDzQXhygHgTEymXUhHHS6OpWYg3M0=i6Q0Gpaa1rJzv2L3eA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAKtE3zcaktMxOfSmA5XckrtTjZvUu8tqQUON=uZ4pOZOea-CmQ@mail.gmail.com>

Cari,
Your posts are way more coherent when you make an effort at using
punctuation.

Thanks so much for clarifying your point to the list.

Warm regards,

Travis

On Sat, Oct 24, 2015, 1:44 PM Cari Machet <carimachet at gmail.com> wrote:

> Dear travis
>
> I am an anti feminist but i started feeling like a fucker saying mother
> fucker all the time and ao i decided to call out the patriarchy of saying
> mother fucker by saying father fucker which sounds really fucked up ... in
> turkey i am yelled at for saying mother fucker and have had too many
> conversations about it ... it is the worst thing you can say in turkish
> language
>
> Language is alive and i like to fuck it
>
> Anymore questions?
> On Oct 24, 2015 6:54 PM, "Travis Biehn" <tbiehn at gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> Is this a call to resolve an Oedipal impulse.. Or are you referring to
>> some inner 'father' manifestation?
>>
>> -Travis
>>
>> On Sat, Oct 24, 2015, 9:20 AM Cari Machet <carimachet at gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>>> Shelly seriously take a look at yourself and do a fucking self critique
>>> your fucking ego is just bent - straighten your father fucking self out and
>>> unless you can make some fucking comprehensive logical steps stfu
>>> On Oct 24, 2015 5:52 AM, "Mirimir" <mirimir at riseup.net> wrote:
>>>
>>>> On 10/23/2015 10:21 AM, Shelley wrote:
>>>> > On October 23, 2015 9:15:49 AM Travis Biehn <tbiehn at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>> >
>>>> >> & eugen at leitl.org, notorious troll.
>>>> >>
>>>> >
>>>> > (I thought it was a joke/troll post & initially ignored it.)
>>>>
>>>> What makes you think that it's not?
>>>>
>>>> > I noticed eugen, too!  Wtf, codermange?
>>>>
>>>> What makes you think that it's coderman's list?
>>>>
>>>> > Jim Fucking Bell is on there, but not Cari Machet.  Riiight.
>>>>
>>>> Maybe that tells you something, maybe not.
>>>>
>>>> What set includes Jim Bell and Paul Syverson, but not Cari Machet?
>>>>
>>>> Nothing coherent comes to mind.
>>>>
>>>> > -S
>>>> >
>>>> >> On Fri, Oct 23, 2015 at 11:50 AM, Seth <list at sysfu.com> wrote:
>>>> >>
>>>> >> > On Fri, 23 Oct 2015 01:59:51 -0700, coderman <coderman at gmail.com>
>>>> >> wrote:
>>>> >> >
>>>> >> > http://pastebin.com/Wy98Q3TJ
>>>> >> >>
>>>> >> >> ---
>>>> >> >>
>>>> >> >> Email filter update.
>>>> >> >> This is a list with trolls, troublemakers and other nuts mostly
>>>> on the
>>>> >> >> security mailing lists. Since I filter those the discussion is
>>>> much
>>>> >> >> more civil. And with far less conspiracies.
>>>> >> >>
>>>> >> >
>>>> >> > Pondering the meaning seeing as how OP's own email address is
>>>> >> included in
>>>> >> > the list.
>>>> >> >
>>>> >> > Now that's meta-trolling if I ever dun seen it.
>>>> >> >
>>>> >>
>>>> >>
>>>> >>
>>>> >> --
>>>> >> Twitter <https://twitter.com/tbiehn> | LinkedIn
>>>> >> <http://www.linkedin.com/in/travisbiehn> | GitHub
>>>> >> <http://github.com/tbiehn>
>>>> >> | TravisBiehn.com <http://www.travisbiehn.com> | Google Plus
>>>> >> <https://plus.google.com/+TravisBiehn>
>>>> >
>>>> >
>>>> >
>>>>
>>>
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From zen at freedbms.net  Sat Oct 24 12:56:56 2015
From: zen at freedbms.net (Zenaan Harkness)
Date: Sat, 24 Oct 2015 19:56:56 +0000
Subject: list sans smtp spillage
In-Reply-To: <562bda67.c2c38c0a.d87c7.1a02@mx.google.com>
References: <CAJVRA1Qsx_vpf8ppOActj0OHhaMnK-bHOJc2ycnxUc365F0iag@mail.gmail.com>
 <op.x6yt821ebgbjo9@laptop>
 <CAKtE3zd0HXwNYf0O8ABoz31=jekM=QcghC0YaOBVO6VDkHsrFA@mail.gmail.com>
 <20151023162045.1F3C3C00014@frontend1.nyi.internal>
 <562AF01A.70003@riseup.net>
 <CAPyX2ndSR5D5W19Dix5+53H3L2kUOWe=ajZ0hBWNhFSAQpRNGA@mail.gmail.com>
 <562bda67.c2c38c0a.d87c7.1a02@mx.google.com>
Message-ID: <CAOsGNSQ8SdukTODPWnCf254h4stERPYY=ghVrRrjKjy_wf=C5w@mail.gmail.com>

On 10/24/15, Juan <juan.g71 at gmail.com> wrote:
> On Sat, 24 Oct 2015 15:13:35 +0100
> Mark Steward <marksteward at gmail.com> wrote:
>> As far as I've seen, Cari doesn't spread posts to crypto-specific
>> mailing lists.
>
> 	So why block her.
>
>> This is a decent list of people to plonk if you're a cryptography
>> researcher
>
> 		So if you're a crypto 'researcher' (more than likely
> 		some kind of state parasite) you'd block the capo of the
> 		tor mafia, syverson? He's on the list too. People don't
> 		seem to have noticed.
> 	
> 		coderman's list doesn't make  sense - and obviously
> 		it's not 'his' blocking list since he is on the list as
> 		well.
>
> 		coderman could have explained where the fuck the list
> 		came from, but he didn't and still doesn't.
>
> 		whoever put that list together is fairly retarded
> 		anyway.

The post might be viewed as a successful boundary test exercise - 'can
the folks at cpunks decide a deigned demonic deeming of a suggested
sanctioned speech suppression block list?'

The answer in this instance appears to be some oedipal intercourse.




From carimachet at gmail.com  Sat Oct 24 10:44:26 2015
From: carimachet at gmail.com (Cari Machet)
Date: Sat, 24 Oct 2015 20:44:26 +0300
Subject: list sans smtp spillage
In-Reply-To: <CAKtE3zdVzgAvrdQAWqae_i-4UR-RV3xkEiEHOMz_-kixngrEkA@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAJVRA1Qsx_vpf8ppOActj0OHhaMnK-bHOJc2ycnxUc365F0iag@mail.gmail.com>
 <op.x6yt821ebgbjo9@laptop>
 <CAKtE3zd0HXwNYf0O8ABoz31=jekM=QcghC0YaOBVO6VDkHsrFA@mail.gmail.com>
 <20151023162045.1F3C3C00014@frontend1.nyi.internal>
 <562AF01A.70003@riseup.net>
 <CAGRDzQVgkpg=Qo2z-zP+ojiJJes006PK3VTCX2YZDNksDp6C-A@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAKtE3zdVzgAvrdQAWqae_i-4UR-RV3xkEiEHOMz_-kixngrEkA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAGRDzQXhygHgTEymXUhHHS6OpWYg3M0=i6Q0Gpaa1rJzv2L3eA@mail.gmail.com>

Dear travis

I am an anti feminist but i started feeling like a fucker saying mother
fucker all the time and ao i decided to call out the patriarchy of saying
mother fucker by saying father fucker which sounds really fucked up ... in
turkey i am yelled at for saying mother fucker and have had too many
conversations about it ... it is the worst thing you can say in turkish
language

Language is alive and i like to fuck it

Anymore questions?
On Oct 24, 2015 6:54 PM, "Travis Biehn" <tbiehn at gmail.com> wrote:

> Is this a call to resolve an Oedipal impulse.. Or are you referring to
> some inner 'father' manifestation?
>
> -Travis
>
> On Sat, Oct 24, 2015, 9:20 AM Cari Machet <carimachet at gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> Shelly seriously take a look at yourself and do a fucking self critique
>> your fucking ego is just bent - straighten your father fucking self out and
>> unless you can make some fucking comprehensive logical steps stfu
>> On Oct 24, 2015 5:52 AM, "Mirimir" <mirimir at riseup.net> wrote:
>>
>>> On 10/23/2015 10:21 AM, Shelley wrote:
>>> > On October 23, 2015 9:15:49 AM Travis Biehn <tbiehn at gmail.com> wrote:
>>> >
>>> >> & eugen at leitl.org, notorious troll.
>>> >>
>>> >
>>> > (I thought it was a joke/troll post & initially ignored it.)
>>>
>>> What makes you think that it's not?
>>>
>>> > I noticed eugen, too!  Wtf, codermange?
>>>
>>> What makes you think that it's coderman's list?
>>>
>>> > Jim Fucking Bell is on there, but not Cari Machet.  Riiight.
>>>
>>> Maybe that tells you something, maybe not.
>>>
>>> What set includes Jim Bell and Paul Syverson, but not Cari Machet?
>>>
>>> Nothing coherent comes to mind.
>>>
>>> > -S
>>> >
>>> >> On Fri, Oct 23, 2015 at 11:50 AM, Seth <list at sysfu.com> wrote:
>>> >>
>>> >> > On Fri, 23 Oct 2015 01:59:51 -0700, coderman <coderman at gmail.com>
>>> >> wrote:
>>> >> >
>>> >> > http://pastebin.com/Wy98Q3TJ
>>> >> >>
>>> >> >> ---
>>> >> >>
>>> >> >> Email filter update.
>>> >> >> This is a list with trolls, troublemakers and other nuts mostly on
>>> the
>>> >> >> security mailing lists. Since I filter those the discussion is much
>>> >> >> more civil. And with far less conspiracies.
>>> >> >>
>>> >> >
>>> >> > Pondering the meaning seeing as how OP's own email address is
>>> >> included in
>>> >> > the list.
>>> >> >
>>> >> > Now that's meta-trolling if I ever dun seen it.
>>> >> >
>>> >>
>>> >>
>>> >>
>>> >> --
>>> >> Twitter <https://twitter.com/tbiehn> | LinkedIn
>>> >> <http://www.linkedin.com/in/travisbiehn> | GitHub
>>> >> <http://github.com/tbiehn>
>>> >> | TravisBiehn.com <http://www.travisbiehn.com> | Google Plus
>>> >> <https://plus.google.com/+TravisBiehn>
>>> >
>>> >
>>> >
>>>
>>
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From carimachet at gmail.com  Sat Oct 24 10:47:49 2015
From: carimachet at gmail.com (Cari Machet)
Date: Sat, 24 Oct 2015 20:47:49 +0300
Subject: list sans smtp spillage
In-Reply-To: <562BA1D7.1040006@openmailbox.org>
References: <CAJVRA1Qsx_vpf8ppOActj0OHhaMnK-bHOJc2ycnxUc365F0iag@mail.gmail.com>
 <op.x6yt821ebgbjo9@laptop>
 <CAKtE3zd0HXwNYf0O8ABoz31=jekM=QcghC0YaOBVO6VDkHsrFA@mail.gmail.com>
 <20151023162045.1F3C3C00014@frontend1.nyi.internal>
 <562AF01A.70003@riseup.net>
 <CAPyX2ndSR5D5W19Dix5+53H3L2kUOWe=ajZ0hBWNhFSAQpRNGA@mail.gmail.com>
 <20151024150232.B345268016A@frontend2.nyi.internal>
 <562BA1D7.1040006@openmailbox.org>
Message-ID: <CAGRDzQWHwkrs_08Dnz4=Y0zfG8ct5cudXjJToYnAaCi7fFWXMA@mail.gmail.com>

I am in love with you oshwm you are too smart
On Oct 24, 2015 6:27 PM, "oshwm" <oshwm at openmailbox.org> wrote:

>
>
> On 24/10/15 16:02, Shelley wrote:
> > On October 24, 2015 7:21:27 AM Mark Steward <marksteward at gmail.com>
> > wrote:
> >
> >> This is a decent list of people to plonk if you're a cryptography
> >> researcher trying to keep up with the state of the art without being
> >> bombarded by tangential political in-fighting and vanity posts. If
> >> you do
> >> want to opt into the latter, you'd join cpunks.
> >>
> >>
> >> Mark
> >
> > And yet, here you are ;)  It's okay, we have ample space to
> > accommodate you here in the gutter.
> >
>
> I'm sticking with the gutter, much more interesting and has a bunch of
> people who give a fuck rather than being on the 'right' lists to prop up
> their career, cunts :D
>
> > -S
> >
> >
>
>
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From marksteward at gmail.com  Sat Oct 24 12:57:05 2015
From: marksteward at gmail.com (Mark Steward)
Date: Sat, 24 Oct 2015 20:57:05 +0100
Subject: list sans smtp spillage
In-Reply-To: <562bda67.c2c38c0a.d87c7.1a02@mx.google.com>
References: <CAJVRA1Qsx_vpf8ppOActj0OHhaMnK-bHOJc2ycnxUc365F0iag@mail.gmail.com>
 <op.x6yt821ebgbjo9@laptop>
 <CAKtE3zd0HXwNYf0O8ABoz31=jekM=QcghC0YaOBVO6VDkHsrFA@mail.gmail.com>
 <20151023162045.1F3C3C00014@frontend1.nyi.internal>
 <562AF01A.70003@riseup.net>
 <CAPyX2ndSR5D5W19Dix5+53H3L2kUOWe=ajZ0hBWNhFSAQpRNGA@mail.gmail.com>
 <562bda67.c2c38c0a.d87c7.1a02@mx.google.com>
Message-ID: <CAPyX2ne+psLSTrJNiLi_Wg+g9S8oG-1HpxvSAdXNQfJ3=NZQMg@mail.gmail.com>

On Sat, Oct 24, 2015 at 8:28 PM, Juan <juan.g71 at gmail.com> wrote:

> On Sat, 24 Oct 2015 15:13:35 +0100
> Mark Steward <marksteward at gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > As far as I've seen, Cari doesn't spread posts to crypto-specific
> > mailing lists.
>
>         So why block her.
>
>
She's not on the list.


> >
> > This is a decent list of people to plonk if you're a cryptography
> > researcher
>
>
>                 So if you're a crypto 'researcher' (more than likely
>                 some kind of state parasite) you'd block the capo of the
>                 tor mafia, syverson? He's on the list too. People don't
>                 seem to have noticed.
>
>
It's one person's plonk list. Why insist that it agree with you?


>
>                 coderman's list doesn't make  sense - and obviously
>                 it's not 'his' blocking list since he is on the list as
>                 well.
>
>                 coderman could have explained where the fuck the list
>                 came from, but he didn't and still doesn't.
>
>
He did, at the bottom of the original post.


Mark
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From carimachet at gmail.com  Sat Oct 24 13:58:12 2015
From: carimachet at gmail.com (Cari Machet)
Date: Sat, 24 Oct 2015 23:58:12 +0300
Subject: list sans smtp spillage
In-Reply-To: <562be62a.46c0370a.f2fb5.1e99@mx.google.com>
References: <CAJVRA1Qsx_vpf8ppOActj0OHhaMnK-bHOJc2ycnxUc365F0iag@mail.gmail.com>
 <op.x6yt821ebgbjo9@laptop>
 <CAKtE3zd0HXwNYf0O8ABoz31=jekM=QcghC0YaOBVO6VDkHsrFA@mail.gmail.com>
 <20151023162045.1F3C3C00014@frontend1.nyi.internal>
 <562AF01A.70003@riseup.net>
 <CAPyX2ndSR5D5W19Dix5+53H3L2kUOWe=ajZ0hBWNhFSAQpRNGA@mail.gmail.com>
 <562bda67.c2c38c0a.d87c7.1a02@mx.google.com>
 <CAPyX2ne+psLSTrJNiLi_Wg+g9S8oG-1HpxvSAdXNQfJ3=NZQMg@mail.gmail.com>
 <562be62a.46c0370a.f2fb5.1e99@mx.google.com>
Message-ID: <CAGRDzQU8dM=0O9LAy5ngM1Ux=7US_fQJ8HLpvWqJStAO+vxuSg@mail.gmail.com>

Fuck in this context means work with or shift ... now that shellys fucked
up shit has made it so that my name has been massively over used and all my
orifices have been inspected can we stop writing the word cari

Read buckminster fuller and actually comprehend it then talk to me about my
fucking writing form k?... get back to me in 5 or so years after reading
bucky
On Sat, 24 Oct 2015 20:57:05 +0100
Mark Steward <marksteward at gmail.com> wrote:

> On Sat, Oct 24, 2015 at 8:28 PM, Juan <juan.g71 at gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > On Sat, 24 Oct 2015 15:13:35 +0100
> > Mark Steward <marksteward at gmail.com> wrote:
> >
> > > As far as I've seen, Cari doesn't spread posts to crypto-specific
> > > mailing lists.
> >
> >         So why block her.
> >
> >
> She's not on the list.

        You're right. My mistake.


>
> >
> >                 coderman's list doesn't make  sense - and obviously
> >                 it's not 'his' blocking list since he is on the
> > list as well.
> >
> >                 coderman could have explained where the fuck the
> > list came from, but he didn't and still doesn't.
> >
> >
> He did, at the bottom of the original post.


        And you're right again. So the list is just some random,
        nonsensical list, author unknown.

        (I, like Cari, don't post to any crypto list except this one
        and tor-talk. I'd guess then, the author is some tor-bot from
        tor-talk...except, what kind of retard would join tor-talk and
        block syverson?? LOL)




J.

>
>
> Mark
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From zen at freedbms.net  Sat Oct 24 19:48:24 2015
From: zen at freedbms.net (Zenaan Harkness)
Date: Sun, 25 Oct 2015 02:48:24 +0000
Subject: Fwd: Crimea: The Way Back Home - EN Subtitles - Full Documentary
 (VIDEO)
In-Reply-To: <CAOsGNSRzpefHuf5WHWwJ=5PW7BRJ+_oSJe9qxNny51FY-iM21w@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAOsGNSRzpefHuf5WHWwJ=5PW7BRJ+_oSJe9qxNny51FY-iM21w@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAOsGNSR6WO55UW_f5WSyUEMBANY6si5NM0-L2gnZJx1+TvKAmw@mail.gmail.com>

As I watch this, seems useful for understanding the nature of fascists.
Zenaan


---------- Forwarded message ----------
From: Zenaan Harkness <zen at freedbms.net>
Date: Sun, 25 Oct 2015 01:26:28 +0000
Subject: Crimea: The Way Back Home - EN Subtitles - Full Documentary (VIDEO)

"Crimea: The Way Back Home - EN Subtitles", documentary.

This version is about 1.7GB, and contains the section missing from
at least one other version (see below) - it's the highest quality version
I've been able to find; youtube-dl works a treat:
http://thesaker.is/crimea-way-back-home-full-video-with-english-subtitles/

This version is about 330MB, but one of the comments tells us that a 4
minute section has been cut, one of the best bits (again, youtube-dl
can download this):
http://www.sott.net/article/294197-Crimea-The-Way-Back-Home-EN-Subtitles-Full-Documentary-VIDEO

This version is about 863MB, and not currently being seeded by
anybody, so cannot comment on how complete it is:
https://pirateproxy.yt/torrent/11773855/Crimea_-_The_Way_Back_Home_%28Documentary%29

Regards,
Zenaan




From Rayzer at riseup.net  Sun Oct 25 08:32:18 2015
From: Rayzer at riseup.net (Razer)
Date: Sun, 25 Oct 2015 08:32:18 -0700
Subject: list sans smtp spillage
In-Reply-To: <562CEA30.5000200@pilobilus.net>
References: <CAJVRA1Qsx_vpf8ppOActj0OHhaMnK-bHOJc2ycnxUc365F0iag@mail.gmail.com>
 <op.x6yt821ebgbjo9@laptop>
 <CAKtE3zd0HXwNYf0O8ABoz31=jekM=QcghC0YaOBVO6VDkHsrFA@mail.gmail.com>
 <20151023162045.1F3C3C00014@frontend1.nyi.internal>
 <562AF01A.70003@riseup.net>
 <CAGRDzQVgkpg=Qo2z-zP+ojiJJes006PK3VTCX2YZDNksDp6C-A@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAKtE3zdVzgAvrdQAWqae_i-4UR-RV3xkEiEHOMz_-kixngrEkA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAGRDzQXhygHgTEymXUhHHS6OpWYg3M0=i6Q0Gpaa1rJzv2L3eA@mail.gmail.com>
 <562BDC2A.8030001@riseup.net> <562CEA30.5000200@pilobilus.net>
Message-ID: <562CF602.8000605@riseup.net>

There were no "Purges" in Vietnam.

If you read ANY account of those alleged purges carefully what you'll
discover is the article title says so, and the first paragraph says so,
then the rest of the information is about the Laotian and Cambodian
purges, which could have only happened with America's assistance in
bringing (this will sound familiar) warlords who were willing to collude
with the US to power in those countries.

Don't drink the koolaid about the Vietnam War, and NEVER believe an
alleged 'pacifist'. They DEPEND on you believing lies like "Vietnam -
Purges" to continue the rationalizations that the US has EVER fought a
'righteous' international war. The pacifist need that belief as well, to
to rationalize what was typically utterly ineffective action, if they
ever really did anything at all, as the slaughter continued unabated for
a decade or more.

The US government is going to spend millions of dollars over the next
decade to reinforce those myths too.

http://www.thedailybeast.com/articles/2015/01/28/the-pentagon-s-pathetic-vietnam-whitewash.html

On 10/25/2015 07:41 AM, Steve Kinney wrote:
> On 10/24/2015 03:29 PM, Razer wrote:
>
>
> > On 10/24/2015 10:44 AM, Cari Machet wrote:
> >>
> >> Dear travis
> >>
> >> I am an anti feminist but i started feeling like a fucker
> >> saying mother fucker all the time and ao i decided to call
> >> out the patriarchy of saying mother fucker by saying father
> >> fucker which sounds really fucked up ... in turkey i am
> >> yelled at for saying mother fucker and have had too many
> >> conversations about it ... it is the worst thing you can say
> >> in turkish language
> >>
> >> Language is alive and i like to fuck it
> >>
> >> Anymore questions?
> >>
> >>
>
> > Yeah... Why "Fuck you"? Fucking is fun, stress reducing, and
> > has so many other benefits, including monetary if you're so
> > inclined.
>
> > If you REALLY dislike someone it's more appropriate to say
> > "UN-FUCK you!"
>
> > RR
>
> Now y'all done set me off.  Stand back, I'm a gonna RANT.
>
> I'm a think Cari would be right at home on the Group W bench, and
> I don't think anyone will call her "moral enough to join the Army
> and burn women kids houses and villages" after being listed as a
> troll and/or spammer on Cypherpunks.
>
> In the English language, every meaning of the word "fuck," except
> one, references violence or damage.  I'm gonna fuck you up, he
> really got fucked over, they fucked us out of it, this fucking
> shit sucks.  "Fuck you" is an expression of anger or challenge.
> Conversational use of the word "fuck" is commonplace in the
> military services and among economically and otherwise repressed
> minority populations, but much less so in "polite" society where
> all forms of routine violence are kept out of sight or at least
> have lace doilies on top of them.
>
> I have long held that the true meaning of "fuck" reflects a
> profound social psychosis, normalized through centuries of common
> usage and elaborate rationalizations, where sex IS violence.  When
> the word "violence" is understood in the context of Anarchist or
> Libertarian ideology as "violation" of the personal integrity of
> another by force, deception or strategic subterfuge, numerous
> everyday examples of sexual assault, sexual repression and sexual
> exploitation come to mind.  (Voice over, Eric Idle:  "Now we see
> the violence inherent in the system!")
>
> I got no time for "Liberal Feminism" 'cause that word Liberal
> denotes a "loyal opposition" to Establishment institutions based
> on violence.  Liberals complain politely to their rulers, and are
> kind to people they personally know, so it's not their fault if
> their path to personal comfort and security is paved with the
> bones of murdered children.
>
> The Women's Lib faction of the New Left complained rudely, and set
> their sights on personal power and dominance, vs. the mere comfort
> and security that their Liberal counterparts still aspire to:  A
> "radical movement" with not one bad thing to say about mass murder
> as long as their favored team is doing it.
>
> The fall of Saigon and what came after provides a wonderful
> "teachable moment" in U.S. political history:  A coalition of
> Pacifist using Joan Baez as their front man took out a full page
> ad in the Times, calling out Hanoi for carrying out massive purges
> in "south" Vietnam.  A coalition of New Left groups using Hanoi
> Jane as their front man responded with a full page ad in the
> Times, calling out the Pacifists as counter-revolutionary running
> dogs and congratulating their comrades in arms overseas.
>
> I am an Emma Goldman and/or Simone de Beauvoir kind of feminist. I
> was apparently born to be an anarchist, and I like people, so this
> alignment is more or less inevitable.
>
> :o)
>
>
>
>
>
>
>



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From Rayzer at riseup.net  Sun Oct 25 09:21:55 2015
From: Rayzer at riseup.net (Razer)
Date: Sun, 25 Oct 2015 09:21:55 -0700
Subject: list sans smtp spillage
In-Reply-To: <562CFC35.70605@pilobilus.net>
References: <CAJVRA1Qsx_vpf8ppOActj0OHhaMnK-bHOJc2ycnxUc365F0iag@mail.gmail.com>
 <op.x6yt821ebgbjo9@laptop>
 <CAKtE3zd0HXwNYf0O8ABoz31=jekM=QcghC0YaOBVO6VDkHsrFA@mail.gmail.com>
 <20151023162045.1F3C3C00014@frontend1.nyi.internal>
 <562AF01A.70003@riseup.net>
 <CAGRDzQVgkpg=Qo2z-zP+ojiJJes006PK3VTCX2YZDNksDp6C-A@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAKtE3zdVzgAvrdQAWqae_i-4UR-RV3xkEiEHOMz_-kixngrEkA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAGRDzQXhygHgTEymXUhHHS6OpWYg3M0=i6Q0Gpaa1rJzv2L3eA@mail.gmail.com>
 <562BDC2A.8030001@riseup.net> <562CEA30.5000200@pilobilus.net>
 <562CF602.8000605@riseup.net> <562CFC35.70605@pilobilus.net>
Message-ID: <562D01A3.2080802@riseup.net>



On 10/25/2015 08:58 AM, Steve Kinney wrote:
> On 10/25/2015 11:32 AM, Razer wrote:
> > There were no "Purges" in Vietnam.
>
> IIRC there were, though of course not on a scale to rival Pol Pot
> & Co.  However, that's beside the point:  I was talking about
> Amerikan politics, not Asian history.
>
> :o)
>

I'm SURE the citizens of Vietnam took good care of their traitors... To
the best of my knowledge there were never any government organized
purges. What angry citizens might have done to Special Forces installed
"Provincial Governments" and errant unfortunate ARVN soldiers does NOT
qualify as a purge. What Amerika did to it's labor unionists in the
early 1900s does though. America's politics DEPEND on the belief in
"Righteous wars" and I'm here to say The US has NEVER fought one. It's a
myth.

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From shelley at misanthropia.org  Sun Oct 25 10:10:58 2015
From: shelley at misanthropia.org (Shelley)
Date: Sun, 25 Oct 2015 10:10:58 -0700
Subject: mailing list etiquette violators list
In-Reply-To: <20151025103124.GW7122@ctrlc.hu>
References: <20151025103124.GW7122@ctrlc.hu>
Message-ID: <20151025171042.37B45C00013@frontend1.nyi.internal>

On October 25, 2015 9:46:16 AM stef <s at ctrlc.hu> wrote:

> after the much successful list of coderman regarding contributors-to-be-
> filtered, allow me to present you the list of the most - netiquette-wise -
> unrespectful contributors to this list:

[Snip]

Observation: with a few exceptions, those of us who have been using the 
'net for longer than most (and presumably understand the principles of 
netiquette from the BBS days) are at the top of the list.  It's a good 
reminder; thanks, Stef.

Note to self: must unsubscribe old email address.  Derp.

-Shelley





From admin at pilobilus.net  Sun Oct 25 07:41:52 2015
From: admin at pilobilus.net (Steve Kinney)
Date: Sun, 25 Oct 2015 10:41:52 -0400
Subject: list sans smtp spillage
In-Reply-To: <562BDC2A.8030001@riseup.net>
References: <CAJVRA1Qsx_vpf8ppOActj0OHhaMnK-bHOJc2ycnxUc365F0iag@mail.gmail.com>
 <op.x6yt821ebgbjo9@laptop>
 <CAKtE3zd0HXwNYf0O8ABoz31=jekM=QcghC0YaOBVO6VDkHsrFA@mail.gmail.com>
 <20151023162045.1F3C3C00014@frontend1.nyi.internal>
 <562AF01A.70003@riseup.net>
 <CAGRDzQVgkpg=Qo2z-zP+ojiJJes006PK3VTCX2YZDNksDp6C-A@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAKtE3zdVzgAvrdQAWqae_i-4UR-RV3xkEiEHOMz_-kixngrEkA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAGRDzQXhygHgTEymXUhHHS6OpWYg3M0=i6Q0Gpaa1rJzv2L3eA@mail.gmail.com>
 <562BDC2A.8030001@riseup.net>
Message-ID: <562CEA30.5000200@pilobilus.net>

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On 10/24/2015 03:29 PM, Razer wrote:
> 
> 
> On 10/24/2015 10:44 AM, Cari Machet wrote:
>> 
>> Dear travis
>> 
>> I am an anti feminist but i started feeling like a fucker
>> saying mother fucker all the time and ao i decided to call
>> out the patriarchy of saying mother fucker by saying father
>> fucker which sounds really fucked up ... in turkey i am
>> yelled at for saying mother fucker and have had too many
>> conversations about it ... it is the worst thing you can say
>> in turkish language
>> 
>> Language is alive and i like to fuck it
>> 
>> Anymore questions?
>> 
>> 
> 
> Yeah... Why "Fuck you"? Fucking is fun, stress reducing, and
> has so many other benefits, including monetary if you're so
> inclined.
> 
> If you REALLY dislike someone it's more appropriate to say
> "UN-FUCK you!"
> 
> RR

Now y'all done set me off.  Stand back, I'm a gonna RANT.

I'm a think Cari would be right at home on the Group W bench, and
I don't think anyone will call her "moral enough to join the Army
and burn women kids houses and villages" after being listed as a
troll and/or spammer on Cypherpunks.

In the English language, every meaning of the word "fuck," except
one, references violence or damage.  I'm gonna fuck you up, he
really got fucked over, they fucked us out of it, this fucking
shit sucks.  "Fuck you" is an expression of anger or challenge.
Conversational use of the word "fuck" is commonplace in the
military services and among economically and otherwise repressed
minority populations, but much less so in "polite" society where
all forms of routine violence are kept out of sight or at least
have lace doilies on top of them.

I have long held that the true meaning of "fuck" reflects a
profound social psychosis, normalized through centuries of common
usage and elaborate rationalizations, where sex IS violence.  When
the word "violence" is understood in the context of Anarchist or
Libertarian ideology as "violation" of the personal integrity of
another by force, deception or strategic subterfuge, numerous
everyday examples of sexual assault, sexual repression and sexual
exploitation come to mind.  (Voice over, Eric Idle:  "Now we see
the violence inherent in the system!")

I got no time for "Liberal Feminism" 'cause that word Liberal
denotes a "loyal opposition" to Establishment institutions based
on violence.  Liberals complain politely to their rulers, and are
kind to people they personally know, so it's not their fault if
their path to personal comfort and security is paved with the
bones of murdered children.

The Women's Lib faction of the New Left complained rudely, and set
their sights on personal power and dominance, vs. the mere comfort
and security that their Liberal counterparts still aspire to:  A
"radical movement" with not one bad thing to say about mass murder
as long as their favored team is doing it.

The fall of Saigon and what came after provides a wonderful
"teachable moment" in U.S. political history:  A coalition of
Pacifist using Joan Baez as their front man took out a full page
ad in the Times, calling out Hanoi for carrying out massive purges
in "south" Vietnam.  A coalition of New Left groups using Hanoi
Jane as their front man responded with a full page ad in the
Times, calling out the Pacifists as counter-revolutionary running
dogs and congratulating their comrades in arms overseas.

I am an Emma Goldman and/or Simone de Beauvoir kind of feminist. I
was apparently born to be an anarchist, and I like people, so this
alignment is more or less inevitable.

:o)






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From Rayzer at riseup.net  Sun Oct 25 11:04:50 2015
From: Rayzer at riseup.net (Razer)
Date: Sun, 25 Oct 2015 11:04:50 -0700
Subject: mailing list etiquette violators list
In-Reply-To: <20151025103124.GW7122@ctrlc.hu>
References: <20151025103124.GW7122@ctrlc.hu>
Message-ID: <562D19C2.2000400@riseup.net>

Well, it seems EVERYONE here is on the list...

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From sdw at lig.net  Sun Oct 25 11:08:24 2015
From: sdw at lig.net (Stephen D. Williams)
Date: Sun, 25 Oct 2015 11:08:24 -0700
Subject: mailing list etiquette violators list
In-Reply-To: <CAD2Ti2-Y7DqOw4ycOP7vJoBLpAhf1C22FS5zMCyPsTy_1cLneQ@mail.gmail.com>
References: <20151025103124.GW7122@ctrlc.hu>
 <CAD2Ti2-Y7DqOw4ycOP7vJoBLpAhf1C22FS5zMCyPsTy_1cLneQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <562D1A98.3080602@lig.net>

On 10/25/15 10:47 AM, grarpamp wrote:
> On Sun, Oct 25, 2015 at 6:31 AM, stef <s at ctrlc.hu> wrote:
>> after the much successful list of coderman
> c-man gets best non-troll yet troll happened award in a while.
>
>>          longlines            132 23%
>>          nlbloat              26 4%
>> ...
> Suckass MUA, Ima fix that shit someday so'z I can be all tight and
> oldschool BBS 1337 again.

Long lines is a bad thing?  I hate email clients or mailing lists that auto-wrap actual text instead of the view.  That is terribly 
retro.  My current edit window, which is only 2/3 of my screen width, is 226 characters wide.

Who doesn't use Thunderbird anyway?  Everything else is broken and unprofessional.  (Your script doesn't rank flamebait yet... ;-) )

sdw

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From shelley at misanthropia.org  Sun Oct 25 11:15:46 2015
From: shelley at misanthropia.org (Shelley)
Date: Sun, 25 Oct 2015 11:15:46 -0700
Subject: list sans smtp spillage
In-Reply-To: <CAD2Ti2-r0Xr1ypB+Qe_s0E7z0zVzN58R+Rw1ak4Q-rzUTTmb6w@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAJVRA1Qsx_vpf8ppOActj0OHhaMnK-bHOJc2ycnxUc365F0iag@mail.gmail.com>
 <op.x6yt821ebgbjo9@laptop>
 <CAKtE3zd0HXwNYf0O8ABoz31=jekM=QcghC0YaOBVO6VDkHsrFA@mail.gmail.com>
 <20151023162045.1F3C3C00014@frontend1.nyi.internal>
 <562AF01A.70003@riseup.net>
 <CAGRDzQVgkpg=Qo2z-zP+ojiJJes006PK3VTCX2YZDNksDp6C-A@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAKtE3zdVzgAvrdQAWqae_i-4UR-RV3xkEiEHOMz_-kixngrEkA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAGRDzQXhygHgTEymXUhHHS6OpWYg3M0=i6Q0Gpaa1rJzv2L3eA@mail.gmail.com>
 <562BDC2A.8030001@riseup.net> <562CEA30.5000200@pilobilus.net>
 <562CF602.8000605@riseup.net> <562CFC35.70605@pilobilus.net>
 <562D01A3.2080802@riseup.net> <562D1394.2010700@pilobilus.net>
 <CAD2Ti2-r0Xr1ypB+Qe_s0E7z0zVzN58R+Rw1ak4Q-rzUTTmb6w@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <20151025181529.D7706C0001F@frontend1.nyi.internal>

On October 25, 2015 11:07:13 AM grarpamp <grarpamp at gmail.com> wrote:

> On Sun, Oct 25, 2015 at 1:38 PM, Steve Kinney <admin at pilobilus.net> wrote:
> > War is public murder for private profit.
> > ...
> > Everyone who takes up arms to
> > settle the disputes of their rulers and de facto owners is a
> > traitor to the human race as a whole.
> > ...
> > The "fog of war" has another name, propaganda
>

> This.

+2

>
> (Oh fuck, there I go fucking up my oneliner score again, might as
> well throw in a few fucks for good measure, as if I give a fuck, at
> least this next fuck from some other fucker might count as one
> more fuck to the good, lol...)
>

+1 more fuck, given for the greater good!

(Seriously: I zoned out of that thread, but your points above are spot on 
and deserve to be QFT for other tl;dr such as myself.)

-a netiquette offendatrix





From Rayzer at riseup.net  Sun Oct 25 11:15:48 2015
From: Rayzer at riseup.net (Razer)
Date: Sun, 25 Oct 2015 11:15:48 -0700
Subject: Vietnam (Was: list sans smtp spillage)
In-Reply-To: <562D1394.2010700@pilobilus.net>
References: <CAJVRA1Qsx_vpf8ppOActj0OHhaMnK-bHOJc2ycnxUc365F0iag@mail.gmail.com>
 <op.x6yt821ebgbjo9@laptop>
 <CAKtE3zd0HXwNYf0O8ABoz31=jekM=QcghC0YaOBVO6VDkHsrFA@mail.gmail.com>
 <20151023162045.1F3C3C00014@frontend1.nyi.internal>
 <562AF01A.70003@riseup.net>
 <CAGRDzQVgkpg=Qo2z-zP+ojiJJes006PK3VTCX2YZDNksDp6C-A@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAKtE3zdVzgAvrdQAWqae_i-4UR-RV3xkEiEHOMz_-kixngrEkA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAGRDzQXhygHgTEymXUhHHS6OpWYg3M0=i6Q0Gpaa1rJzv2L3eA@mail.gmail.com>
 <562BDC2A.8030001@riseup.net> <562CEA30.5000200@pilobilus.net>
 <562CF602.8000605@riseup.net> <562CFC35.70605@pilobilus.net>
 <562D01A3.2080802@riseup.net> <562D1394.2010700@pilobilus.net>
Message-ID: <562D1C54.9030204@riseup.net>

BTW, Vietnam did NOT 'win the war'. In the early 1990s I was listening
on shortwave to a relatively rare and very weak signaled Voice of
Vietnam broadcast in English (target nation unknown). Through the fade
and static I was able to discern that the presentation in progress was
an infomercial attempting to garner business for the recently rebuilt
and de-mined port of Haiphong.

They got the business alright. The destruction of Vietnam's
infrastructure had the long term effect of driving them into the hands
of their former enemies just to survive...

Vietnam: From National Liberation to Trans-Pacific Vassal

http://dissidentvoice.org/2015/10/vietnam-from-national-liberation-to-trans-pacific-vassalage-1975-2015/

On 10/25/2015 10:38 AM, Steve Kinney wrote:
> On 10/25/2015 12:21 PM, Razer wrote:
>
>
> > On 10/25/2015 08:58 AM, Steve Kinney wrote:
> >> On 10/25/2015 11:32 AM, Razer wrote:
> >>> There were no "Purges" in Vietnam.
> >>
> >> IIRC there were, though of course not on a scale to rival Pol
> >> Pot & Co.  However, that's beside the point:  I was talking
> >> about Amerikan politics, not Asian history.
> >>
> >> :o)
> >>
>
> > I'm SURE the citizens of Vietnam took good care of their
> > traitors... To the best of my knowledge there were never any
> > government organized purges. What angry citizens might have
> > done to Special Forces installed "Provincial Governments" and
> > errant unfortunate ARVN soldiers does NOT qualify as a purge.
> > What Amerika did to it's labor unionists in the early 1900s
> > does though. America's politics DEPEND on the belief in
> > "Righteous wars" and I'm here to say The US has NEVER fought
> > one. It's a myth.
>
> War is public murder for private profit.  I don't know of any
> counter-examples.  Again we are up against a collective psychosis,
> normalized by a long history of public acceptance and elaborate
> rationalizations.  Sometimes one sees Bad Guys vs. Worse Guys, but
> whenever it's Guys vs. Guys the best that can be accomplished is
> some amount of damage control.  Everyone who takes up arms to
> settle the disputes of their rulers and de facto owners is a
> traitor to the human race as a whole.
>
> The "fog of war" has another name, propaganda, and all sides of
> every armed conflict write press releases to establish that their
> only motive is "necessary self defence," or the currently popular
> "responsibility to protect others."  The other side of every armed
> conflict always started it, and the regular folks on the other
> side of that border deserve whatever happens to them because they
> failed to stop it.
>
> Too much factual information about war results in large numbers of
> people banding together to have a go at kicking the war machine to
> pieces.  So never mind that "ain't gonna study war no more" crap;
> study the fuck out of war and encourage others to do likewise.
>
> :o/
>
>
>
>



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From Rayzer at riseup.net  Sun Oct 25 11:28:24 2015
From: Rayzer at riseup.net (Razer)
Date: Sun, 25 Oct 2015 11:28:24 -0700
Subject: mailing list etiquette violators list
In-Reply-To: <20151025103124.GW7122@ctrlc.hu>
References: <20151025103124.GW7122@ctrlc.hu>
Message-ID: <562D1F48.7000807@riseup.net>

nlbloat, iow the excessive use of empty lines.

It's called CLARITY in posting when you add extra lines between quoted
materials and what came before/comes after. I put one line above a
quote, and 2 below, and have for years...

Fuck 'nlbloat'. It's obviously an 'issue' created by people (NetNazis)
who never read the actual content of postings anyway.

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From s at ctrlc.hu  Sun Oct 25 03:31:24 2015
From: s at ctrlc.hu (stef)
Date: Sun, 25 Oct 2015 11:31:24 +0100
Subject: mailing list etiquette violators list
Message-ID: <20151025103124.GW7122@ctrlc.hu>

after the much successful list of coderman regarding contributors-to-be-
filtered, allow me to present you the list of the most - netiquette-wise -
unrespectful contributors to this list:

(you can find the explanation of each lint in the source code here:
https://gist.github.com/stef/f35c1339d7013f7966b8)

405  juan.g71 at gmail.com
        nlbloat              279 70%
        quotebloat           75 18%
        quotedsig            18 4%
        longlines            16 4%
        oneliner             8 2%
        toppost              7 1%
        nosubject            1 0%
        fullquote            1 0%
287  cathalgarvey at cathalgarvey.me
        toppost              128 67%
        longsig              49 25%
        quotebloat           48 25%
        longlines            42 22%
        quotedsig            18 9%
        nlbloat              1 0%
        oneliner             1 0%
193  grarpamp at gmail.com
        longlines            132 23%
        nlbloat              26 4%
        oneliner             18 3%
        quotebloat           11 1%
        toppost              4 0%
        fullquote            2 0%
154  jya at pipeline.com
        toppost              84 35%
        longlines            34 14%
        quotebloat           17 7%
        nlbloat              14 5%
        bigmedia             2 0%
        oneliner             2 0%
        quotedsig            1 0%
151  Rayzer at riseup.net
        nlbloat              54 28%
        quotebloat           33 17%
        toppost              28 14%
        longlines            26 13%
        quotedsig            6 3%
        oneliner             2 1%
        bigmedia             1 0%
        longsig              1 0%
104  jdb10987 at yahoo.com
        longlines            67 91%
        nlbloat              22 30%
        quotebloat           5 6%
        oneliner             5 6%
        toppost              3 4%
        fullquote            2 2%
96   coderman at gmail.com
        longlines            67 26%
        toppost              13 5%
        oneliner             5 1%
        nlbloat              3 1%
        quotebloat           3 1%
        bigmedia             2 0%
        fullquote            1 0%
        SHOUTS               1 0%
        nosubject            1 0%
89   tpb-crypto at laposte.net
        longlines            29 90%
        nlbloat              24 75%
        quotebloat           22 68%
        oneliner             12 37%
        toppost              1 3%
        quotedsig            1 3%
82   jamesdbell8 at yahoo.com
        longlines            46 92%
        toppost              12 24%
        fullquote            10 20%
        quotebloat           7 14%
        nlbloat              5 10%
        longsig              1 2%
        quotedsig            1 2%
81   eugen at leitl.org
        longlines            49 59%
        longsig              15 18%
        nlbloat              8 9%
        oneliner             5 6%
        quotebloat           2 2%
        fullquote            1 1%
        toppost              1 1%
79   shelley at misanthropia.org
        quotebloat           31 31%
        nlbloat              22 22%
        toppost              18 18%
        longlines            7 7%
        oneliner             1 1%
78   themikebest at gmail.com
        toppost              31 43%
        quotebloat           24 33%
        longlines            12 16%
        nlbloat              7 9%
        bigmedia             2 2%
        oneliner             1 1%
        SHOUTS               1 1%
72   jamesdbell9 at yahoo.com
        longlines            54 96%
        toppost              6 10%
        quotebloat           4 7%
        fullquote            4 7%
        nlbloat              3 5%
        longsig              1 1%
70   mirimir at riseup.net
        quotebloat           46 39%
        nlbloat              14 11%
        longlines            7 5%
        quotedsig            3 2%
67   guninski at guninski.com
        longlines            35 18%
        quotebloat           10 5%
        nlbloat              7 3%
        toppost              6 3%
        quotedsig            6 3%
        longsig              1 0%
        oneliner             1 0%
        fullquote            1 0%
58   rysiek at hackerspace.pl
        longlines            28 4%
        quotebloat           23 4%
        longsig              3 0%
        bigmedia             2 0%
        toppost              2 0%
55   zen at freedbms.net
        longlines            28 17%
        quotebloat           18 11%
        toppost              6 3%
        nlbloat              2 1%
        oneliner             1 0%
50   gwen at cypherpunks.to
        longsig              25 100%
        toppost              12 48%
        bigmedia             9 36%
        longlines            3 12%
        quotebloat           1 4%
45   oshwm at openmailbox.org
        toppost              15 38%
        quotebloat           12 30%
        longlines            11 28%
        nlbloat              4 10%
        quotedsig            2 5%
        oneliner             1 2%
44   mixmaster at remailer.privacy.at
        longlines            22 57%
        nlbloat              13 34%
        oneliner             7 18%
        quotebloat           1 2%
        toppost              1 2%
34   list at sysfu.com
        longlines            23 23%
        nlbloat              3 3%
        quotebloat           3 3%
        bigmedia             2 2%
        oneliner             2 2%
        toppost              1 1%
29   komachi at openmailbox.org
        longlines            11 34%
        toppost              10 31%
        quotebloat           4 12%
        longsig              2 6%
        quotedsig            2 6%
28   sdw at lig.net
        longlines            20 90%
        quotebloat           3 13%
        longsig              2 9%
        toppost              2 9%
        nlbloat              1 4%
27   tim at diffalt.com
        toppost              17 53%
        quotebloat           9 28%
        longlines            1 3%
26   drwho at virtadpt.net
        longlines            20 20%
        longsig              6 6%
25   shelley at misanthropia.info
        longlines            9 36%
        quotebloat           8 32%
        nlbloat              6 24%
        toppost              1 4%
        quotedsig            1 4%
25   tigrutigru at gmail.com
        longlines            7 100%
        quotebloat           6 85%
        toppost              5 71%
        quotedsig            5 71%
        nlbloat              2 28%
24   hettinga at gmail.com
        longlines            11 34%
        nlbloat              6 18%
        quotebloat           3 9%
        toppost              2 6%
        oneliner             1 3%
        quotedsig            1 3%
22   griffin at cryptolab.net
        longlines            7 18%
        toppost              7 18%
        quotebloat           5 13%
        longsig              3 8%
21   carimachet at gmail.com
        longsig              12 85%
        longlines            6 42%
        toppost              2 14%
        quotebloat           1 7%
21   odinn.cyberguerrilla at riseup.net
        longlines            13 20%
        quotebloat           5 7%
        toppost              3 4%
19   bluelotus at openmailbox.org
        longlines            10 90%
        nlbloat              4 36%
        oneliner             4 36%
        toppost              1 9%
18   electromagnetize at gmail.com
        toppost              8 16%
        longlines            6 12%
        quotebloat           2 4%
        bigmedia             1 2%
        nlbloat              1 2%
18   badbiosvictim at ruggedinbox.com
        longlines            6 100%
        toppost              5 83%
        quotebloat           4 66%
        nlbloat              2 33%
        oneliner             1 16%
18   dal at riseup.net
        toppost              10 40%
        longlines            5 20%
        quotebloat           3 12%
18   ryacko at gmail.com
        quotebloat           6 20%
        toppost              5 17%
        nlbloat              3 10%
        oneliner             2 6%
        longlines            2 6%
17   wirelesswarrior at safe-mail.net
        longlines            15 88%
        toppost              2 11%
16   cyberkiller8 at gmail.com
        longsig              16 100%
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-- 
otr fp: https://www.ctrlc.hu/~stef/otr.txt




From admin at pilobilus.net  Sun Oct 25 08:58:45 2015
From: admin at pilobilus.net (Steve Kinney)
Date: Sun, 25 Oct 2015 11:58:45 -0400
Subject: list sans smtp spillage
In-Reply-To: <562CF602.8000605@riseup.net>
References: <CAJVRA1Qsx_vpf8ppOActj0OHhaMnK-bHOJc2ycnxUc365F0iag@mail.gmail.com>
 <op.x6yt821ebgbjo9@laptop>
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 <562CF602.8000605@riseup.net>
Message-ID: <562CFC35.70605@pilobilus.net>

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On 10/25/2015 11:32 AM, Razer wrote:
> There were no "Purges" in Vietnam.

IIRC there were, though of course not on a scale to rival Pol Pot
& Co.  However, that's beside the point:  I was talking about
Amerikan politics, not Asian history.

:o)




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From admin at pilobilus.net  Sun Oct 25 09:00:08 2015
From: admin at pilobilus.net (Steve Kinney)
Date: Sun, 25 Oct 2015 12:00:08 -0400
Subject: list sans smtp spillage
In-Reply-To: <CAGRDzQWHwkrs_08Dnz4=Y0zfG8ct5cudXjJToYnAaCi7fFWXMA@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAJVRA1Qsx_vpf8ppOActj0OHhaMnK-bHOJc2ycnxUc365F0iag@mail.gmail.com>
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 <CAGRDzQWHwkrs_08Dnz4=Y0zfG8ct5cudXjJToYnAaCi7fFWXMA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <562CFC88.3080806@pilobilus.net>

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On 10/24/2015 01:47 PM, Cari Machet wrote:
> I am in love with you oshwm you are too smart

Always room for one more on the Group W bench.  :D




> On Oct 24, 2015 6:27 PM, "oshwm" <oshwm at openmailbox.org 
> <mailto:oshwm at openmailbox.org>> wrote:
> 
> 
> 
> On 24/10/15 16:02, Shelley wrote:
>> On October 24, 2015 7:21:27 AM Mark Steward
> <marksteward at gmail.com <mailto:marksteward at gmail.com>>
>> wrote:
>> 
>>> This is a decent list of people to plonk if you're a
>>> cryptography researcher trying to keep up with the state of
>>> the art
> without being
>>> bombarded by tangential political in-fighting and vanity
> posts. If
>>> you do want to opt into the latter, you'd join cpunks.
>>> 
>>> 
>>> Mark
>> 
>> And yet, here you are ;)  It's okay, we have ample space to 
>> accommodate you here in the gutter.
>> 
> 
> I'm sticking with the gutter, much more interesting and has a 
> bunch of people who give a fuck rather than being on the
> 'right' lists to prop up their career, cunts :D
> 
>> -S
>> 
>> 
> 

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From admin at pilobilus.net  Sun Oct 25 10:38:28 2015
From: admin at pilobilus.net (Steve Kinney)
Date: Sun, 25 Oct 2015 13:38:28 -0400
Subject: list sans smtp spillage
In-Reply-To: <562D01A3.2080802@riseup.net>
References: <CAJVRA1Qsx_vpf8ppOActj0OHhaMnK-bHOJc2ycnxUc365F0iag@mail.gmail.com>
 <op.x6yt821ebgbjo9@laptop>
 <CAKtE3zd0HXwNYf0O8ABoz31=jekM=QcghC0YaOBVO6VDkHsrFA@mail.gmail.com>
 <20151023162045.1F3C3C00014@frontend1.nyi.internal>
 <562AF01A.70003@riseup.net>
 <CAGRDzQVgkpg=Qo2z-zP+ojiJJes006PK3VTCX2YZDNksDp6C-A@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAKtE3zdVzgAvrdQAWqae_i-4UR-RV3xkEiEHOMz_-kixngrEkA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAGRDzQXhygHgTEymXUhHHS6OpWYg3M0=i6Q0Gpaa1rJzv2L3eA@mail.gmail.com>
 <562BDC2A.8030001@riseup.net> <562CEA30.5000200@pilobilus.net>
 <562CF602.8000605@riseup.net> <562CFC35.70605@pilobilus.net>
 <562D01A3.2080802@riseup.net>
Message-ID: <562D1394.2010700@pilobilus.net>

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1

On 10/25/2015 12:21 PM, Razer wrote:
> 
> 
> On 10/25/2015 08:58 AM, Steve Kinney wrote:
>> On 10/25/2015 11:32 AM, Razer wrote:
>>> There were no "Purges" in Vietnam.
>> 
>> IIRC there were, though of course not on a scale to rival Pol
>> Pot & Co.  However, that's beside the point:  I was talking
>> about Amerikan politics, not Asian history.
>> 
>> :o)
>> 
> 
> I'm SURE the citizens of Vietnam took good care of their
> traitors... To the best of my knowledge there were never any
> government organized purges. What angry citizens might have
> done to Special Forces installed "Provincial Governments" and
> errant unfortunate ARVN soldiers does NOT qualify as a purge.
> What Amerika did to it's labor unionists in the early 1900s
> does though. America's politics DEPEND on the belief in 
> "Righteous wars" and I'm here to say The US has NEVER fought
> one. It's a myth.

War is public murder for private profit.  I don't know of any
counter-examples.  Again we are up against a collective psychosis,
normalized by a long history of public acceptance and elaborate
rationalizations.  Sometimes one sees Bad Guys vs. Worse Guys, but
whenever it's Guys vs. Guys the best that can be accomplished is
some amount of damage control.  Everyone who takes up arms to
settle the disputes of their rulers and de facto owners is a
traitor to the human race as a whole.

The "fog of war" has another name, propaganda, and all sides of
every armed conflict write press releases to establish that their
only motive is "necessary self defence," or the currently popular
"responsibility to protect others."  The other side of every armed
conflict always started it, and the regular folks on the other
side of that border deserve whatever happens to them because they
failed to stop it.

Too much factual information about war results in large numbers of
people banding together to have a go at kicking the war machine to
pieces.  So never mind that "ain't gonna study war no more" crap;
study the fuck out of war and encourage others to do likewise.

:o/



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From grarpamp at gmail.com  Sun Oct 25 10:47:18 2015
From: grarpamp at gmail.com (grarpamp)
Date: Sun, 25 Oct 2015 13:47:18 -0400
Subject: mailing list etiquette violators list
In-Reply-To: <20151025103124.GW7122@ctrlc.hu>
References: <20151025103124.GW7122@ctrlc.hu>
Message-ID: <CAD2Ti2-Y7DqOw4ycOP7vJoBLpAhf1C22FS5zMCyPsTy_1cLneQ@mail.gmail.com>

On Sun, Oct 25, 2015 at 6:31 AM, stef <s at ctrlc.hu> wrote:
> after the much successful list of coderman

c-man gets best non-troll yet troll happened award in a while.

>         longlines            132 23%
>         nlbloat              26 4%
> ...

Suckass MUA, Ima fix that shit someday so'z I can be all tight and
oldschool BBS 1337 again.




From carimachet at gmail.com  Sun Oct 25 04:51:10 2015
From: carimachet at gmail.com (Cari Machet)
Date: Sun, 25 Oct 2015 13:51:10 +0200
Subject: list sans smtp spillage
In-Reply-To: <562BF982.80508@riseup.net>
References: <CAJVRA1Qsx_vpf8ppOActj0OHhaMnK-bHOJc2ycnxUc365F0iag@mail.gmail.com>
 <op.x6yt821ebgbjo9@laptop>
 <CAKtE3zd0HXwNYf0O8ABoz31=jekM=QcghC0YaOBVO6VDkHsrFA@mail.gmail.com>
 <20151023162045.1F3C3C00014@frontend1.nyi.internal>
 <562AF01A.70003@riseup.net>
 <CAPyX2ndSR5D5W19Dix5+53H3L2kUOWe=ajZ0hBWNhFSAQpRNGA@mail.gmail.com>
 <562bda67.c2c38c0a.d87c7.1a02@mx.google.com>
 <CAPyX2ne+psLSTrJNiLi_Wg+g9S8oG-1HpxvSAdXNQfJ3=NZQMg@mail.gmail.com>
 <562be62a.46c0370a.f2fb5.1e99@mx.google.com>
 <CAGRDzQU8dM=0O9LAy5ngM1Ux=7US_fQJ8HLpvWqJStAO+vxuSg@mail.gmail.com>
 <562BF982.80508@riseup.net>
Message-ID: <CAGRDzQUqEGn79TA1U+QYPWAHkinNO0icPqUkGdQmQ62L71oZrA@mail.gmail.com>

LOL
On Oct 25, 2015 12:43 AM, "Razer" <Rayzer at riseup.net> wrote:

> "Fuck" is a VERY useful word. You can even construct a complete sentence
> with adjective, noun, adverb and verb from it:
>
> " ...fucking fucker’s fucking fucked."
>
> http://www.lrb.co.uk/v35/n21/letters#letter4
>
> ...which is all well and good if you're a motor pool mechanic in her
> majesty's army during WWII.
>
> RR
>
> On 10/24/2015 01:58 PM, Cari Machet wrote:
> >
> > Fuck in this context means work with or shift ... now that shellys
> > fucked up shit has made it so that my name has been massively over
> > used and all my orifices have been inspected can we stop writing the
> > word cari
> >
> > Read buckminster fuller and actually comprehend it then talk to me
> > about my fucking writing form k?... get back to me in 5 or so years
> > after reading bucky
> >
> > On Sat, 24 Oct 2015 20:57:05 +0100
> > Mark Steward <marksteward at gmail.com <mailto:marksteward at gmail.com>>
> wrote:
> >
> > > On Sat, Oct 24, 2015 at 8:28 PM, Juan <juan.g71 at gmail.com
> > <mailto:juan.g71 at gmail.com>> wrote:
> > >
> > > > On Sat, 24 Oct 2015 15:13:35 +0100
> > > > Mark Steward <marksteward at gmail.com
> > <mailto:marksteward at gmail.com>> wrote:
> > > >
> > > > > As far as I've seen, Cari doesn't spread posts to crypto-specific
> > > > > mailing lists.
> > > >
> > > >         So why block her.
> > > >
> > > >
> > > She's not on the list.
> >
> >         You're right. My mistake.
> >
> >
> > >
> > > >
> > > >                 coderman's list doesn't make  sense - and obviously
> > > >                 it's not 'his' blocking list since he is on the
> > > > list as well.
> > > >
> > > >                 coderman could have explained where the fuck the
> > > > list came from, but he didn't and still doesn't.
> > > >
> > > >
> > > He did, at the bottom of the original post.
> >
> >
> >         And you're right again. So the list is just some random,
> >         nonsensical list, author unknown.
> >
> >         (I, like Cari, don't post to any crypto list except this one
> >         and tor-talk. I'd guess then, the author is some tor-bot from
> >         tor-talk...except, what kind of retard would join tor-talk and
> >         block syverson?? LOL)
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > J.
> >
> > >
> > >
> > > Mark
> >
>
>
>
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From grarpamp at gmail.com  Sun Oct 25 11:00:23 2015
From: grarpamp at gmail.com (grarpamp)
Date: Sun, 25 Oct 2015 14:00:23 -0400
Subject: list sans smtp spillage
In-Reply-To: <562D1394.2010700@pilobilus.net>
References: <CAJVRA1Qsx_vpf8ppOActj0OHhaMnK-bHOJc2ycnxUc365F0iag@mail.gmail.com>
 <op.x6yt821ebgbjo9@laptop>
 <CAKtE3zd0HXwNYf0O8ABoz31=jekM=QcghC0YaOBVO6VDkHsrFA@mail.gmail.com>
 <20151023162045.1F3C3C00014@frontend1.nyi.internal>
 <562AF01A.70003@riseup.net>
 <CAGRDzQVgkpg=Qo2z-zP+ojiJJes006PK3VTCX2YZDNksDp6C-A@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAKtE3zdVzgAvrdQAWqae_i-4UR-RV3xkEiEHOMz_-kixngrEkA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAGRDzQXhygHgTEymXUhHHS6OpWYg3M0=i6Q0Gpaa1rJzv2L3eA@mail.gmail.com>
 <562BDC2A.8030001@riseup.net> <562CEA30.5000200@pilobilus.net>
 <562CF602.8000605@riseup.net> <562CFC35.70605@pilobilus.net>
 <562D01A3.2080802@riseup.net> <562D1394.2010700@pilobilus.net>
Message-ID: <CAD2Ti2-r0Xr1ypB+Qe_s0E7z0zVzN58R+Rw1ak4Q-rzUTTmb6w@mail.gmail.com>

On Sun, Oct 25, 2015 at 1:38 PM, Steve Kinney <admin at pilobilus.net> wrote:
> War is public murder for private profit.
> ...
> Everyone who takes up arms to
> settle the disputes of their rulers and de facto owners is a
> traitor to the human race as a whole.
> ...
> The "fog of war" has another name, propaganda

This.

(Oh fuck, there I go fucking up my oneliner score again, might as
well throw in a few fucks for good measure, as if I give a fuck, at
least this next fuck from some other fucker might count as one
more fuck to the good, lol...)

> study the fuck out of war and encourage others to do likewise.




From mirimir at riseup.net  Sun Oct 25 14:58:02 2015
From: mirimir at riseup.net (Mirimir)
Date: Sun, 25 Oct 2015 15:58:02 -0600
Subject: list sans smtp spillage
In-Reply-To: <CAD2Ti2-r0Xr1ypB+Qe_s0E7z0zVzN58R+Rw1ak4Q-rzUTTmb6w@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAJVRA1Qsx_vpf8ppOActj0OHhaMnK-bHOJc2ycnxUc365F0iag@mail.gmail.com>
 <op.x6yt821ebgbjo9@laptop>
 <CAKtE3zd0HXwNYf0O8ABoz31=jekM=QcghC0YaOBVO6VDkHsrFA@mail.gmail.com>
 <20151023162045.1F3C3C00014@frontend1.nyi.internal>
 <562AF01A.70003@riseup.net>
 <CAGRDzQVgkpg=Qo2z-zP+ojiJJes006PK3VTCX2YZDNksDp6C-A@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAKtE3zdVzgAvrdQAWqae_i-4UR-RV3xkEiEHOMz_-kixngrEkA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAGRDzQXhygHgTEymXUhHHS6OpWYg3M0=i6Q0Gpaa1rJzv2L3eA@mail.gmail.com>
 <562BDC2A.8030001@riseup.net> <562CEA30.5000200@pilobilus.net>
 <562CF602.8000605@riseup.net> <562CFC35.70605@pilobilus.net>
 <562D01A3.2080802@riseup.net> <562D1394.2010700@pilobilus.net>
 <CAD2Ti2-r0Xr1ypB+Qe_s0E7z0zVzN58R+Rw1ak4Q-rzUTTmb6w@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <562D506A.7070209@riseup.net>

On 10/25/2015 12:00 PM, grarpamp wrote:
> On Sun, Oct 25, 2015 at 1:38 PM, Steve Kinney <admin at pilobilus.net> wrote:
>> War is public murder for private profit.
>> ...
>> Everyone who takes up arms to
>> settle the disputes of their rulers and de facto owners is a
>> traitor to the human race as a whole.
>> ...
>> The "fog of war" has another name, propaganda
> 
> This.

Yes, that!

> (Oh fuck, there I go fucking up my oneliner score again, might as
> well throw in a few fucks for good measure, as if I give a fuck, at
> least this next fuck from some other fucker might count as one
> more fuck to the good, lol...)
> 
>> study the fuck out of war and encourage others to do likewise.
> 




From jya at pipeline.com  Sun Oct 25 14:31:55 2015
From: jya at pipeline.com (John Young)
Date: Sun, 25 Oct 2015 17:31:55 -0400
Subject: mailing list etiquette violators list
In-Reply-To: <562D41EC.3040601@openmailbox.org>
References: <20151025103124.GW7122@ctrlc.hu>
 <562d3e54.c4858c0a.2ad11.ffff9370@mx.google.com>
 <562D41EC.3040601@openmailbox.org>
Message-ID: <E1ZqSsr-0004ja-TY@elasmtp-spurfowl.atl.sa.earthlink.net>

All of the originals are stego, ambitiously stego'd large
twice, and continuing with every message. Insert stego
here, ridicule and forward hollowing like a monkey
with tiny balls, to Slashdot, Reddit, 4chan, Wayback,
Google, Snowden, Manning, WikiLeaks, Il Papa, Wailing
Wall, SecureDrop Honey Pot.

cc, bcc, spam, sock puppet, cloud, gameboy, slop it.
























At 04:56 PM 10/25/2015, you wrote:
>There are still some types of "disrespect" I haven't committed yet, I'll
>have to cover those off with future emails :D
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>On 25/10/15 20:47, Juan wrote:
> > On Sun, 25 Oct 2015 11:31:24 +0100
> > stef <s at ctrlc.hu> wrote:
> >
> >> after the much successful list of coderman regarding
> >> contributors-to-be- filtered, allow me to present you the list of the
> >> most - netiquette-wise - unrespectful contributors to this list:
> >>
> >> (you can find the explanation of each lint in the source code here:
> >> https://gist.github.com/stef/f35c1339d7013f7966b8)
> >>
> >> 405  juan.g71 at gmail.com
> >>         nlbloat              279 70%
> >>         quotebloat           75 18%
> >
> >       newlines and meaninful quotes, yes of course. both 
> completly by design
> >
> >       fuck
> >
> >       your
> >
> >       newline
> >
> >       counting
> >
> >       script
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
>
>
>





From juan.g71 at gmail.com  Sun Oct 25 13:47:17 2015
From: juan.g71 at gmail.com (Juan)
Date: Sun, 25 Oct 2015 17:47:17 -0300
Subject: mailing list etiquette violators list
In-Reply-To: <20151025103124.GW7122@ctrlc.hu>
References: <20151025103124.GW7122@ctrlc.hu>
Message-ID: <562d3e54.c4858c0a.2ad11.ffff9370@mx.google.com>

On Sun, 25 Oct 2015 11:31:24 +0100
stef <s at ctrlc.hu> wrote:

> after the much successful list of coderman regarding
> contributors-to-be- filtered, allow me to present you the list of the
> most - netiquette-wise - unrespectful contributors to this list:
> 
> (you can find the explanation of each lint in the source code here:
> https://gist.github.com/stef/f35c1339d7013f7966b8)
> 
> 405  juan.g71 at gmail.com

>         nlbloat              279 70%
>         quotebloat           75 18%

	
	newlines and meaninful quotes, yes of course. both completly by design

	fuck 

	your

	newline

	counting

	script

	












From mirimir at riseup.net  Sun Oct 25 19:26:44 2015
From: mirimir at riseup.net (Mirimir)
Date: Sun, 25 Oct 2015 20:26:44 -0600
Subject: list sans smtp spillage
In-Reply-To: <CAGRDzQXKg19xADmHDcE0MXx6GbOTnZNhKwG1NqeERQ4SXFcodg@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAJVRA1Qsx_vpf8ppOActj0OHhaMnK-bHOJc2ycnxUc365F0iag@mail.gmail.com>
 <op.x6yt821ebgbjo9@laptop>
 <CAKtE3zd0HXwNYf0O8ABoz31=jekM=QcghC0YaOBVO6VDkHsrFA@mail.gmail.com>
 <20151023162045.1F3C3C00014@frontend1.nyi.internal>
 <562AF01A.70003@riseup.net>
 <CAGRDzQVgkpg=Qo2z-zP+ojiJJes006PK3VTCX2YZDNksDp6C-A@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAKtE3zdVzgAvrdQAWqae_i-4UR-RV3xkEiEHOMz_-kixngrEkA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAGRDzQXhygHgTEymXUhHHS6OpWYg3M0=i6Q0Gpaa1rJzv2L3eA@mail.gmail.com>
 <562BDC2A.8030001@riseup.net> <562CEA30.5000200@pilobilus.net>
 <562CF602.8000605@riseup.net> <562CFC35.70605@pilobilus.net>
 <562D01A3.2080802@riseup.net> <562D1394.2010700@pilobilus.net>
 <CAD2Ti2-r0Xr1ypB+Qe_s0E7z0zVzN58R+Rw1ak4Q-rzUTTmb6w@mail.gmail.com>
 <562D506A.7070209@riseup.net>
 <CAGRDzQXKg19xADmHDcE0MXx6GbOTnZNhKwG1NqeERQ4SXFcodg@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <562D8F64.5090500@riseup.net>

On 10/25/2015 05:08 PM, Cari Machet wrote:

<SNIP>

> I am totally clear that i can not engage empathy if i have such judgements
> about armed struggle to call it counter revolutionary ... should the
> spanish had committed mass suicide ... should the palestinians ? Math is a
> factor we only have so many functionalities to work with and until these
> functionalities are expanded more thru serious fucking profound massive
> work it cannot be different
> 
> People are working to expand functionalities now and doing amazing work but
> there are many ways to dismantle the state i cannot shove one way into
> oblivion in my mind because i dont know everything so... each frame is
> different and to me respecting anothers frame is fucking anarchism and
> without the respect of the other aspect anarchy would be too weak or what
> would it even be?

I make my own decisions about fighting. I read "settle the disputes of
their rulers and de facto owners" to mean fighting for them, out of
loyalty, fear or whatever. That's distinct from fighting against them.

More generally, I believe in nonaggression, and self defense.

> Not sure why you have to write specifically about me steve
> On Oct 26, 2015 3:34 AM, "Mirimir" <mirimir at riseup.net> wrote:
> 
>> On 10/25/2015 12:00 PM, grarpamp wrote:
>>> On Sun, Oct 25, 2015 at 1:38 PM, Steve Kinney <admin at pilobilus.net>
>> wrote:
>>>> War is public murder for private profit.
>>>> ...
>>>> Everyone who takes up arms to
>>>> settle the disputes of their rulers and de facto owners is a
>>>> traitor to the human race as a whole.
>>>> ...
>>>> The "fog of war" has another name, propaganda
>>>
>>> This.
>>
>> Yes, that!
>>
>>> (Oh fuck, there I go fucking up my oneliner score again, might as
>>> well throw in a few fucks for good measure, as if I give a fuck, at
>>> least this next fuck from some other fucker might count as one
>>> more fuck to the good, lol...)
>>>
>>>> study the fuck out of war and encourage others to do likewise.
>>>
>>
> 




From oshwm at openmailbox.org  Sun Oct 25 13:56:12 2015
From: oshwm at openmailbox.org (oshwm)
Date: Sun, 25 Oct 2015 20:56:12 +0000
Subject: mailing list etiquette violators list
In-Reply-To: <562d3e54.c4858c0a.2ad11.ffff9370@mx.google.com>
References: <20151025103124.GW7122@ctrlc.hu>
 <562d3e54.c4858c0a.2ad11.ffff9370@mx.google.com>
Message-ID: <562D41EC.3040601@openmailbox.org>

There are still some types of "disrespect" I haven't committed yet, I'll
have to cover those off with future emails :D







On 25/10/15 20:47, Juan wrote:
> On Sun, 25 Oct 2015 11:31:24 +0100
> stef <s at ctrlc.hu> wrote:
>
>> after the much successful list of coderman regarding
>> contributors-to-be- filtered, allow me to present you the list of the
>> most - netiquette-wise - unrespectful contributors to this list:
>>
>> (you can find the explanation of each lint in the source code here:
>> https://gist.github.com/stef/f35c1339d7013f7966b8)
>>
>> 405  juan.g71 at gmail.com
>>         nlbloat              279 70%
>>         quotebloat           75 18%
> 	
> 	newlines and meaninful quotes, yes of course. both completly by design
>
> 	fuck 
>
> 	your
>
> 	newline
>
> 	counting
>
> 	script
>
> 	
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>


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From zen at freedbms.net  Sun Oct 25 16:11:30 2015
From: zen at freedbms.net (Zenaan Harkness)
Date: Sun, 25 Oct 2015 23:11:30 +0000
Subject: list sans smtp spillage
In-Reply-To: <562D1394.2010700@pilobilus.net>
References: <CAJVRA1Qsx_vpf8ppOActj0OHhaMnK-bHOJc2ycnxUc365F0iag@mail.gmail.com>
 <op.x6yt821ebgbjo9@laptop>
 <CAKtE3zd0HXwNYf0O8ABoz31=jekM=QcghC0YaOBVO6VDkHsrFA@mail.gmail.com>
 <20151023162045.1F3C3C00014@frontend1.nyi.internal>
 <562AF01A.70003@riseup.net>
 <CAGRDzQVgkpg=Qo2z-zP+ojiJJes006PK3VTCX2YZDNksDp6C-A@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAKtE3zdVzgAvrdQAWqae_i-4UR-RV3xkEiEHOMz_-kixngrEkA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAGRDzQXhygHgTEymXUhHHS6OpWYg3M0=i6Q0Gpaa1rJzv2L3eA@mail.gmail.com>
 <562BDC2A.8030001@riseup.net> <562CEA30.5000200@pilobilus.net>
 <562CF602.8000605@riseup.net> <562CFC35.70605@pilobilus.net>
 <562D01A3.2080802@riseup.net> <562D1394.2010700@pilobilus.net>
Message-ID: <CAOsGNSSPd-QiC1EEB0Hc+NHxL1TSjTz6esbcMKknuR4e9OfF-Q@mail.gmail.com>

On 10/25/15, Steve Kinney <admin at pilobilus.net> wrote:
> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
> Hash: SHA1
>
> On 10/25/2015 12:21 PM, Razer wrote:
>>
>>
>> On 10/25/2015 08:58 AM, Steve Kinney wrote:
>>> On 10/25/2015 11:32 AM, Razer wrote:
>>>> There were no "Purges" in Vietnam.
>>>
>>> IIRC there were, though of course not on a scale to rival Pol
>>> Pot & Co.  However, that's beside the point:  I was talking
>>> about Amerikan politics, not Asian history.
>>>
>>> :o)
>>>
>>
>> I'm SURE the citizens of Vietnam took good care of their
>> traitors... To the best of my knowledge there were never any
>> government organized purges. What angry citizens might have
>> done to Special Forces installed "Provincial Governments" and
>> errant unfortunate ARVN soldiers does NOT qualify as a purge.
>> What Amerika did to it's labor unionists in the early 1900s
>> does though. America's politics DEPEND on the belief in
>> "Righteous wars" and I'm here to say The US has NEVER fought
>> one. It's a myth.
>
> War is public murder for private profit.  I don't know of any
> counter-examples.  Again we are up against a collective psychosis,
> normalized by a long history of public acceptance and elaborate
> rationalizations.  Sometimes one sees Bad Guys vs. Worse Guys, but
> whenever it's Guys vs. Guys the best that can be accomplished is
> some amount of damage control.  Everyone who takes up arms to
> settle the disputes of their rulers and de facto owners is a
> traitor to the human race as a whole.

The challenge is how to spread such a meme effectively, powerfully.

Then perhaps there'd be a hope that people would take up arms against
their owners, or at least in defence of their families (I've posted
the post Hurricane Katrina illegal weapons confiscations by federal
military - no one, NO ONE failed to give up their arms (although TBH I
cannot of course speak to those who denied they had any guns in their
respective home - would love to see some true stories of humans with
spines, balls and ovaries!))

And since Credit River Decision, no judge will take up a ruling
against the banks.

And since the machine gun slaughter of the early unionists, as you
hint at above, all unions have fallen to infiltration/ corruption in
relatively short order.

FUCK it's a fucked up world! Juan, PLEASE tell me there's a better one
somewhere, somehow?


> The "fog of war" has another name, propaganda, and all sides of
> every armed conflict write press releases to establish that their
> only motive is "necessary self defence," or the currently popular
> "responsibility to protect others."  The other side of every armed
> conflict always started it, and the regular folks on the other
> side of that border deserve whatever happens to them because they
> failed to stop it.
>
> Too much factual information about war results in large numbers of
> people banding together to have a go at kicking the war machine to
> pieces.  So never mind that "ain't gonna study war no more" crap;
> study the fuck out of war and encourage others to do likewise.

ACK! Fuck the fucken war cause that fucken fucker's a fucking fucked
up death fest of evil.
Z




From zen at freedbms.net  Sun Oct 25 16:27:58 2015
From: zen at freedbms.net (Zenaan Harkness)
Date: Sun, 25 Oct 2015 23:27:58 +0000
Subject: mailing list etiquette violators list
In-Reply-To: <562D1A98.3080602@lig.net>
References: <20151025103124.GW7122@ctrlc.hu>
 <CAD2Ti2-Y7DqOw4ycOP7vJoBLpAhf1C22FS5zMCyPsTy_1cLneQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <562D1A98.3080602@lig.net>
Message-ID: <CAOsGNSTCHQLpXE1XcAOYQEWT95Lnpwm7m0V2NGUyoj-6w3c1Tg@mail.gmail.com>

On 10/25/15, Stephen D. Williams <sdw at lig.net> wrote:
> On 10/25/15 10:47 AM, grarpamp wrote:
>> On Sun, Oct 25, 2015 at 6:31 AM, stef <s at ctrlc.hu> wrote:
>>> after the much successful list of coderman
>> c-man gets best non-troll yet troll happened award in a while.
>>
>>>          longlines            132 23%
>>>          nlbloat              26 4%
>>> ...
>> Suckass MUA, Ima fix that shit someday so'z I can be all tight and
>> oldschool BBS 1337 again.
>
> Long lines is a bad thing?  I hate email clients or mailing lists that
> auto-wrap actual text instead of the view.  That is terribly
> retro.  My current edit window, which is only 2/3 of my screen width, is 226
> characters wide.

That's nothing! Back in the day, my screen wrapped everything, at 40
characters! We were GRATEFUL for 80 character heaven.
<apologies to Monty Python>




From shelley at misanthropia.org  Mon Oct 26 00:20:53 2015
From: shelley at misanthropia.org (Shelley)
Date: Mon, 26 Oct 2015 00:20:53 -0700
Subject: mailing list etiquette violators list
In-Reply-To: <20151026070242.GC45162@r4>
References: <20151025103124.GW7122@ctrlc.hu>
 <CAD2Ti2-Y7DqOw4ycOP7vJoBLpAhf1C22FS5zMCyPsTy_1cLneQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <562D1A98.3080602@lig.net> <20151026070242.GC45162@r4>
Message-ID: <20151026072037.0EA5F680192@frontend2.nyi.internal>

On October 26, 2015 12:10:01 AM Tom <tom at vondein.org> wrote:

> On Sun, Oct 25, 2015 at 11:08:24AM -0700, Stephen D. Williams wrote:
> >    Who doesn't use Thunderbird anyway?  Everything else is broken and
> >    unprofessional.  (Your script doesn't rank flamebait yet... ;-) )
>
> This is how your mail looks in mutt: http://i.imgur.com/NPLcvau.png?1
>
> As you can see, not everyone is using Thunderbird, in fact most people
> use Outlook anyway . And there *are* indeed people on this planet who
> still read mails on the console.
>
> Also take note that it is easier to read text in smaller columns than if
> it is as wide as the whole monitor. That's the reason news papers print
> text in columns and not as 60cm wide articles.
>
>
>
> - Tom

Nice screenshot & reminder of newsprint columns.  (Truly; not meant to be 
sarcastic.)

But M$ Outlook?  Not even on a bet. Heh.

In all seriousness, am I the only person who uses a mobile device to access 
email for .75 of my day?  I don't want to endlessly scroll across or pinch 
& zoom my email.

-S





From carimachet at gmail.com  Sun Oct 25 16:08:20 2015
From: carimachet at gmail.com (Cari Machet)
Date: Mon, 26 Oct 2015 01:08:20 +0200
Subject: list sans smtp spillage
In-Reply-To: <562D506A.7070209@riseup.net>
References: <CAJVRA1Qsx_vpf8ppOActj0OHhaMnK-bHOJc2ycnxUc365F0iag@mail.gmail.com>
 <op.x6yt821ebgbjo9@laptop>
 <CAKtE3zd0HXwNYf0O8ABoz31=jekM=QcghC0YaOBVO6VDkHsrFA@mail.gmail.com>
 <20151023162045.1F3C3C00014@frontend1.nyi.internal>
 <562AF01A.70003@riseup.net>
 <CAGRDzQVgkpg=Qo2z-zP+ojiJJes006PK3VTCX2YZDNksDp6C-A@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAKtE3zdVzgAvrdQAWqae_i-4UR-RV3xkEiEHOMz_-kixngrEkA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAGRDzQXhygHgTEymXUhHHS6OpWYg3M0=i6Q0Gpaa1rJzv2L3eA@mail.gmail.com>
 <562BDC2A.8030001@riseup.net> <562CEA30.5000200@pilobilus.net>
 <562CF602.8000605@riseup.net> <562CFC35.70605@pilobilus.net>
 <562D01A3.2080802@riseup.net> <562D1394.2010700@pilobilus.net>
 <CAD2Ti2-r0Xr1ypB+Qe_s0E7z0zVzN58R+Rw1ak4Q-rzUTTmb6w@mail.gmail.com>
 <562D506A.7070209@riseup.net>
Message-ID: <CAGRDzQXKg19xADmHDcE0MXx6GbOTnZNhKwG1NqeERQ4SXFcodg@mail.gmail.com>

So anarchists in fucking spain took up tanks ... and palestine ... buchunin
organized serious shit  -not sure if the human race is all that actually
so... being an anti speciest and anti-anthropocentric i dont really see the
level diffrrentiation as much as others

I am totally clear that i can not engage empathy if i have such judgements
about armed struggle to call it counter revolutionary ... should the
spanish had committed mass suicide ... should the palestinians ? Math is a
factor we only have so many functionalities to work with and until these
functionalities are expanded more thru serious fucking profound massive
work it cannot be different

People are working to expand functionalities now and doing amazing work but
there are many ways to dismantle the state i cannot shove one way into
oblivion in my mind because i dont know everything so... each frame is
different and to me respecting anothers frame is fucking anarchism and
without the respect of the other aspect anarchy would be too weak or what
would it even be?

Not sure why you have to write specifically about me steve
On Oct 26, 2015 3:34 AM, "Mirimir" <mirimir at riseup.net> wrote:

> On 10/25/2015 12:00 PM, grarpamp wrote:
> > On Sun, Oct 25, 2015 at 1:38 PM, Steve Kinney <admin at pilobilus.net>
> wrote:
> >> War is public murder for private profit.
> >> ...
> >> Everyone who takes up arms to
> >> settle the disputes of their rulers and de facto owners is a
> >> traitor to the human race as a whole.
> >> ...
> >> The "fog of war" has another name, propaganda
> >
> > This.
>
> Yes, that!
>
> > (Oh fuck, there I go fucking up my oneliner score again, might as
> > well throw in a few fucks for good measure, as if I give a fuck, at
> > least this next fuck from some other fucker might count as one
> > more fuck to the good, lol...)
> >
> >> study the fuck out of war and encourage others to do likewise.
> >
>
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From grarpamp at gmail.com  Mon Oct 26 01:03:50 2015
From: grarpamp at gmail.com (grarpamp)
Date: Mon, 26 Oct 2015 04:03:50 -0400
Subject: mailing list etiquette violators list
In-Reply-To: <20151026070242.GC45162@r4>
References: <20151025103124.GW7122@ctrlc.hu>
 <CAD2Ti2-Y7DqOw4ycOP7vJoBLpAhf1C22FS5zMCyPsTy_1cLneQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <562D1A98.3080602@lig.net> <20151026070242.GC45162@r4>
Message-ID: <CAD2Ti29gMw+TpYcuqvNYK5-aC3mcU1r5umAEcu8WYJVT7qgpfQ@mail.gmail.com>

On Mon, Oct 26, 2015 at 3:02 AM, Tom <tom at vondein.org> wrote:
> This is how your mail looks in mutt: http://i.imgur.com/NPLcvau.png?1

The multipart html looks like that in renderer,
the mutt-wrapped plain text is better but the last
bit really blows out 51 more chars to the right.

http://postimg.org/image/m6b761tmr/

That's nothing compared to the garbage most
people merrily jam through their MUA's into
other people's boxes.

Now if we had a gallery of shame for that...




From tom at vondein.org  Mon Oct 26 00:02:42 2015
From: tom at vondein.org (Tom)
Date: Mon, 26 Oct 2015 08:02:42 +0100
Subject: mailing list etiquette violators list
In-Reply-To: <562D1A98.3080602@lig.net>
References: <20151025103124.GW7122@ctrlc.hu>
 <CAD2Ti2-Y7DqOw4ycOP7vJoBLpAhf1C22FS5zMCyPsTy_1cLneQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <562D1A98.3080602@lig.net>
Message-ID: <20151026070242.GC45162@r4>

On Sun, Oct 25, 2015 at 11:08:24AM -0700, Stephen D. Williams wrote:
>    Who doesn't use Thunderbird anyway?  Everything else is broken and
>    unprofessional.  (Your script doesn't rank flamebait yet... ;-) )

This is how your mail looks in mutt: http://i.imgur.com/NPLcvau.png?1

As you can see, not everyone is using Thunderbird, in fact most people
use Outlook anyway . And there *are* indeed people on this planet who
still read mails on the console.

Also take note that it is easier to read text in smaller columns than if
it is as wide as the whole monitor. That's the reason news papers print
text in columns and not as 60cm wide articles.



- Tom




From press at eff.org  Mon Oct 26 08:30:11 2015
From: press at eff.org (EFF Press)
Date: Mon, 26 Oct 2015 08:30:11 -0700
Subject: EFF: Wednesday Hearing in NSA Spying Case
Message-ID: <mailman.4611.1575949155.62801.testlist@lists.cpunks.org>

This is a friendly message from the Electronic Frontier Foundation. View it
in a web browser [1].

ELECTRONIC FRONTIER FOUNDATION MEDIA ALERT

For Immediate Release: Monday, October 26, 2015

 Contact:

Rebecca Jeschke
 Media Relations Director and Digital Rights Analyst
 press at eff.org
 +1 415-436-9333 x177

 Wednesday Hearing in NSA Spying Case

 EFF Battles Against Government Stalling in Jewel v. NSA

 Pasadena, CA - The Electronic Frontier Foundation (EFF) will urge an
appeals court Wednesday to reject the government's attempts to block an
appeal in Jewel v. NSA, EFF's long-running lawsuit battling
unconstitutional mass surveillance of Internet and phone communications.
The hearing is set for 2:00 pm on October 28 before the United States Court
of Appeals for the Ninth Circuit in Pasadena, California.

 At issue in the appeal is the NSA's tapping into the fiber optic cables of
America's telecommunications companies--a digital dragnet that subjects
millions of ordinary people to government spying on their online
activities. A mountain of evidence from whistleblowers and the government
itself confirms the Internet backbone spying, yet a district court judge
ruled earlier this year that there wasn't enough publicly available
information to rule if the program is constitutional.

 EFF appealed to the Ninth Circuit, but the government claims that the
appeal is premature and entwined with other issues that are still being
litigated in the lower court. EFF Special Counsel Richard Wiebe will argue
Wednesday that the appeals court should reject the government's delay
tactics, and finally address whether backbone spying is legal and
constitutional.

 What:
 Jewel v. NSA [2]

 Who:
 EFF Special Counsel Richard Wiebe

 When:
 Wednesday, Oct. 28
 2:00 pm

 Where:
 Richard H. Chambers US Court of Appeals
 Courtroom 1
 125 South Grand Avenue
 Pasadena, CA 91105

 For this release:
 https://www.eff.org/press/releases/wednesday-hearing-nsa-spying-case [3]

 About EFF

 The Electronic Frontier Foundation is the leading organization protecting
civil liberties in the digital world. Founded in 1990, we defend free
speech online, fight illegal surveillance, promote the rights of digital
innovators, and work to ensure that the rights and freedoms we enjoy are
enhanced, rather than eroded, as our use of technology grows. EFF is a
member-supported organization. Find out more at https://www.eff.org.

Electronic Frontier Foundation, 815 Eddy Street, San Francisco, CA 94109
USA

Links:
------
[1] https://supporters.eff.org/civicrm/mailing/view?reset=1&id=1227
[2] https://www.eff.org/cases/jewel
[3] https://www.eff.org/press/releases/wednesday-hearing-nsa-spying-case


For those not in the LA area, it should be livestreamed.  Pasadena 9th
Circuit courthouse, courtroom 1, 2 pm tomorrow.  Before 2, go the
court's website, http://www.ca9.uscourts.gov/  The middle column, Live
Streaming Oral Arguments, should have a link to the livestream from
that courtroom/courthouse.




From Rayzer at riseup.net  Mon Oct 26 10:20:05 2015
From: Rayzer at riseup.net (Razer)
Date: Mon, 26 Oct 2015 10:20:05 -0700
Subject: mailing list etiquette violators list
In-Reply-To: <562d3e54.c4858c0a.2ad11.ffff9370@mx.google.com>
References: <20151025103124.GW7122@ctrlc.hu>
 <562d3e54.c4858c0a.2ad11.ffff9370@mx.google.com>
Message-ID: <562E60C5.2030207@riseup.net>



On 10/25/2015 01:47 PM, Juan wrote:
> fuck 
>
> 	your
>
> 	newline
>
> 	counting
>
> 	script


.....

+1

RR

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From Rayzer at riseup.net  Mon Oct 26 10:28:16 2015
From: Rayzer at riseup.net (Razer)
Date: Mon, 26 Oct 2015 10:28:16 -0700
Subject: mailing list etiquette violators list
In-Reply-To: <20151026070242.GC45162@r4>
References: <20151025103124.GW7122@ctrlc.hu>
 <CAD2Ti2-Y7DqOw4ycOP7vJoBLpAhf1C22FS5zMCyPsTy_1cLneQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <562D1A98.3080602@lig.net> <20151026070242.GC45162@r4>
Message-ID: <562E62B0.4080803@riseup.net>


(Stef... Note the extra newlines... passive-aggressive silent trolling)

On 10/26/2015 12:02 AM, Tom wrote:
> Also take note that it is easier to read text in smaller columns

The why are featured pieces at the top of the front page wide?

NYC public schools taught me how to fold the NY Times vertically so I
could read down the columns while holding onto a subway hang strap and
then flip it to continue, albeit the NY Times may be the only US
newspaper that technique works with. That's the ONLY time narrow columns
are easy to read, unless your attention has a deficit and you lose track
of your place on the line... The reason the columns are narrow is to
allow for easier placement of advertising... the reason newspapers exist
at all.

RR

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From Rayzer at riseup.net  Mon Oct 26 10:46:31 2015
From: Rayzer at riseup.net (Razer)
Date: Mon, 26 Oct 2015 10:46:31 -0700
Subject: Russian Ships Near Data Cables
In-Reply-To: <CAD2Ti29Xse4pAJ9_FGdbXCT=zPD1p0G+qXWzYusXFSpntiPwoA@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAD2Ti29Xse4pAJ9_FGdbXCT=zPD1p0G+qXWzYusXFSpntiPwoA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <562E66F7.7040108@riseup.net>



On 10/26/2015 10:20 AM, grarpamp wrote:
> http://www.nytimes.com/2015/10/26/world/europe/russian-presence-near-undersea-cables-concerns-us.html
> The locations of the cables are hardly secret. "Undersea cables
> tend to follow the similar path since they were laid in the 1860s,"...
> The exceptions are special cables, with secret locations, that have
> been commissioned by the United States for military operations;
> they do not show up on widely available maps, and it is possible
> the Russians are hunting for those, officials said.

The 'secret' cables are easy to find. They go directly to Diego Garcia.

>
> http://edition.cnn.com/2015/07/09/politics/russian-bombers-u-s-intercept-july-4/
>
> http://subseaworldnews.com/tag/yantar/
> http://subseaworldnews.com/2012/12/06/oceanographic-ship-yantar-launched-in-russia/
> http://www.marinetraffic.com/ais/details/ships/shipid:1215053/mmsi:273546520/imo:0/vessel:YANTAR
> http://sputniknews.com/russia/20150523/1022493017.html
> http://freebeacon.com/national-security/u-s-shadowing-russian-ship-in-atlantic-near-nuclear-submarine-areas/
> http://freebeacon.com/national-security/russian-spy-ship-makes-port-call-in-caribbean/
> http://subseaworldnews.com/2015/05/25/russian-navy-takes-delivery-of-rv-yantar/
>
> http://electrospaces.blogspot.nl/
>
> http://www.svengrahn.pp.se/histind/Recces/Recces.htm
>


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From s at ctrlc.hu  Mon Oct 26 04:45:50 2015
From: s at ctrlc.hu (stef)
Date: Mon, 26 Oct 2015 12:45:50 +0100
Subject: mailing list etiquette violators list
In-Reply-To: <562D1A98.3080602@lig.net>
References: <20151025103124.GW7122@ctrlc.hu>
 <CAD2Ti2-Y7DqOw4ycOP7vJoBLpAhf1C22FS5zMCyPsTy_1cLneQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <562D1A98.3080602@lig.net>
Message-ID: <20151026114550.GA7122@ctrlc.hu>

On Sun, Oct 25, 2015 at 11:08:24AM -0700, Stephen D. Williams wrote:
> Who doesn't use Thunderbird anyway? 
> Everything else is broken and unprofessional.

thunderbird is also unprofessional. the mua that sucks least is still mutt.

> (Your script doesn't rank flamebait yet... ;-) )

nope indeed.

-- 
otr fp: https://www.ctrlc.hu/~stef/otr.txt




From grarpamp at gmail.com  Mon Oct 26 10:20:26 2015
From: grarpamp at gmail.com (grarpamp)
Date: Mon, 26 Oct 2015 13:20:26 -0400
Subject: Russian Ships Near Data Cables
Message-ID: <CAD2Ti29Xse4pAJ9_FGdbXCT=zPD1p0G+qXWzYusXFSpntiPwoA@mail.gmail.com>

http://www.nytimes.com/2015/10/26/world/europe/russian-presence-near-undersea-cables-concerns-us.html
The locations of the cables are hardly secret. "Undersea cables
tend to follow the similar path since they were laid in the 1860s,"...
The exceptions are special cables, with secret locations, that have
been commissioned by the United States for military operations;
they do not show up on widely available maps, and it is possible
the Russians are hunting for those, officials said.

http://edition.cnn.com/2015/07/09/politics/russian-bombers-u-s-intercept-july-4/

http://subseaworldnews.com/tag/yantar/
http://subseaworldnews.com/2012/12/06/oceanographic-ship-yantar-launched-in-russia/
http://www.marinetraffic.com/ais/details/ships/shipid:1215053/mmsi:273546520/imo:0/vessel:YANTAR
http://sputniknews.com/russia/20150523/1022493017.html
http://freebeacon.com/national-security/u-s-shadowing-russian-ship-in-atlantic-near-nuclear-submarine-areas/
http://freebeacon.com/national-security/russian-spy-ship-makes-port-call-in-caribbean/
http://subseaworldnews.com/2015/05/25/russian-navy-takes-delivery-of-rv-yantar/

http://electrospaces.blogspot.nl/

http://www.svengrahn.pp.se/histind/Recces/Recces.htm




From rysiek at hackerspace.pl  Mon Oct 26 06:02:24 2015
From: rysiek at hackerspace.pl (rysiek)
Date: Mon, 26 Oct 2015 14:02:24 +0100
Subject: mailing list etiquette violators list
In-Reply-To: <20151026123916.GA2794@sivokote.iziade.m$>
References: <20151025103124.GW7122@ctrlc.hu>
 <20151026123916.GA2794@sivokote.iziade.m$>
Message-ID: <2126343.OY7YGIJRjj@lapuntu>

Dnia poniedziałek, 26 października 2015 14:39:16 Georgi Guninski pisze:
> As an aside, another fuckometer is number
> of times "fuck" appears in the message ;)

Fuck, I was just thinking that. :)

-- 
Pozdrawiam,
Michał "rysiek" Woźniak

Zmieniam klucz GPG :: http://rys.io/pl/147
GPG Key Transition :: http://rys.io/en/147
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From eugen at leitl.org  Mon Oct 26 07:12:38 2015
From: eugen at leitl.org (Eugen Leitl)
Date: Mon, 26 Oct 2015 14:12:38 +0000
Subject: Obfuscation: how leaving a trail of confusion can beat online
 surveillance
Message-ID: <20151026141238.GV21947@leitl.org>


http://www.theguardian.com/technology/2015/oct/24/obfuscation-users-guide-for-privacy-and-protest-online-surveillance

Obfuscation: how leaving a trail of confusion can beat online surveillance

The art of obfuscation has a grand history, from ‘I’m Spartacus!’
to ghost radar in WWII. Could the same blurred approach give us more freedom
online?

 Analog television with white noise

 Obfuscation, say Brunton and Nissenbaum, is the ‘addition of ambiguous,
confusing, or misleading information to interfere with surveillance and data
collection projects’ to ‘ buy time, gain cover, and hide in a crowd
of signals’. Photograph: Jon Helgason/Alamy

Julia Powles Saturday 24 October 2015 09.00 BST Last modified on Sunday 25
October 2015 20.32 GMT

At the heart of Cambridge University, there’s a library tower filled with
200,000 forgotten books. Rumoured by generations of students to hold the
campus collection of porn, Sir Gilbert Scott’s tower is, in fact, filled
with pocket books. Guides, manuals, tales and pamphlets for everyday life,
deemed insufficiently scholarly for the ordinary collection, they stand
preserved as an extraordinary relic of past preoccupations.

One new guide in the handbook tradition – and one that is decidedly on
point for 2015 – is the slim, black, cloth-bound volume, Obfuscation: A
User’s Guide for Privacy and Protest, published by MIT Press. A
collaboration between technologist Finn Brunton and philosopher Helen
Nissenbaum, both of New York University, Obfuscation packs utility, charm and
conviction into its tightly-composed 100-page core. This is a thin book, but
its ambition is vast.

Brunton and Nissenbaum aim to start a “big little revolution” in the
data-mining and surveillance business, by “throwing some sand in the
gears, kicking up dust and making some noise”. Specifically, the authors
champion the titular term, obfuscation, or “the addition of ambiguous,
confusing, or misleading information to interfere with surveillance and data
collection projects”. The objective of such measures is to thwart
profiling, “to buy time, gain cover, and hide in a crowd of signals”.

>From poker to CacheCloak

More than 30 colourful examples – instructive vignettes in their own
right – are used to build the case. Roughly a third are analogue, and the
images stick. War-era choppers generating radar chaff. False tells in poker.
Iconic movie scenes, like the switching briefcases in The Thomas Crown
Affair, or the powerful “I am Spartacus” moment in Kubrick’s 1960
epic. The authors bring in orb-making spiders, sim-card shuffles,
loyalty-card swap meets, “babble tapes” (a digital file played in the
background of a conversation in order to obscure it – all examples where
the individual merges with the tribe; where false signals muddy the genuine;
where noise and quick feet offer “weapons of the weak”.


 ‘I’m Spartacus!’ – obfuscation on film

Shifting to digital, noise can be destructive or productive, and it can scale
dramatically. This is the landscape that a 21st-century handbook must
confront. Platforms and channels can be swamped by code that mimics and
distorts human communication – bots, like-farmers, decoys and hydras.
Other tools, like the anonymous Tor browser, the Guardian’s SecureDrop,
or stylometric obfuscation (to disguise authorship), can be mission-critical
for dissidents. And there is an ever growing demand for consumer-focused
privacy-preserving apps, like CacheCloak, which hides your mobile location in
a spaghetti map of plausible trails, or FaceCloak, which gives a layer of
control over personal data within Facebook.

We are naked, exposed and eminently traceable, now and into the future, by an
increasing range of data-hungry agents Most of us, most of the time, use
immensely popular technologies without masks or noise. We post in what you
might call corruptible silence. On Facebook, Instagram, Twitter and Google,
we document our personal spaces, our frailties, our desires, questions and
answers. We are naked, exposed and eminently traceable, now and into the
future, by an ever-increasing range of data-hungry agents. To concerned
citizens living this reality, and to thoughtful designers of technology, what
Brunton and Nissenbaum offer is a compelling moral defence and some
ready-to-hand tools for a small, distributed revolution of resistance.

Stunt tech, silence and saviours

Core to the book’s perspective is the authors’ experience in building
practical tech – what they describe as “tools among other tools for
the construction and defence of privacy”. Nissenbaum has been the steward
of two major projects, both with programmer Daniel C Howe: TrackMeNot, a
search-history obfuscator that spontaneously generates clouds of possible
queries; and AdNauseam, which “clicks all the ads, so you don’t have
to”.

TrackMeNot was developed in 2006, in conjunction with developer Vincent
Toubiana, while AdNauseam is new, and currently operates in conjunction with
AdBlock Plus, running in the background to click every ad on a given page.
Discussing the latter platform in Berlin, team-member and designer Mushon
Zer-Aviv described it as, presently, more art project than mass-rollout tech.
AdNauseam is currently in public beta in Firefox, but the team is working
hard to bring it to Google Chrome. As Zer-Aviv described, with a hint of
daring, Google will either take it down, to save ad revenue, which would be a
great stunt; or it won’t take it down, which would also be great.

 One of Google’s data centres Facebook Twitter Pinterest

 One of Google’s data centres, part of the web’s back-end.
Photograph: KeystoneUSA-ZUMA / Rex Features

“We see these obfuscating apps and systems as moves in a bigger
picture,” says Nissenbaum. “None, we think, will offer what we really
need, which is comprehensive attention to the picture. Not only the big fuss
about government but all the large data collectors. But they allow people to
visibly signal their disgruntlement – for privacy and protest.”

So how does obfuscation play into the current ad-blocking wars? “It is a
devilish move by ad networks to conflate the massive back-end of tracking,
aggregation, mining and profiling with advertising itself,” says
Nissenbaum. “Our effort, both with TrackMeNot and AdNauseam, has been
targeted at the former. I don’t love advertising but I can tolerate it.
When supporters of the current structures of behavioural advertising say this
will be the end of all the innovation and free stuff on the web, our response
is: no. Although this might happen if advertising itself goes away, it does
not require the back-end tracking for survival.”

The worrying back-end of the web

Advertising does not require back-end tracking for survival.

Helen Nissenbaum

Nissenbaum is right to separate advertising and its current digital back-end.
In the case of newspapers, for example, a great Faustian pact has operated
between ads and content for some 300 years. It more or less works, as long as
there’s not too much of one or the other. The fact that this bargain is
threatened by overreaching data collection and surveillance, from search
engines to content-providers to third-party leeches to governments, is a
measure of the urgency of our contemporary challenge and the necessity for a
creative response. Obfuscation is part of that response.

There is something compelling in being persuaded of the ethical imperative of
digital troublemaking by a couple of righteous academics. Obfuscation is not
an academic tome, and it doesn’t delve into conceptual analyses on its
core principles, such as anonymity in crowds following David Chaum, or
linkability following Andreas Pfitzmann. But the book has been justifiably
selective to capture broad appeal. The lucid, authoritative, accessible and
thought-provoking text that results is a pleasure to read.

Obfuscation is ultimately a tiny shop in the digital realm. To that extent,
it has nothing against the might of big tech. But what it does have is the
potential to fight to keep the preserve of human agency and autonomy uniquely
human. The big hope is that when our bot descendants find this handbook
stuffed in a tower in 100 years, it is unchecked surveillance – not
digital disobedience – that seems antiquated.




From s at ctrlc.hu  Mon Oct 26 06:17:53 2015
From: s at ctrlc.hu (stef)
Date: Mon, 26 Oct 2015 14:17:53 +0100
Subject: mailing list etiquette violators list
In-Reply-To: <20151026123916.GA2794@sivokote.iziade.m$>
References: <20151025103124.GW7122@ctrlc.hu>
 <20151026123916.GA2794@sivokote.iziade.m$>
Message-ID: <20151026131753.GH7122@ctrlc.hu>

On Mon, Oct 26, 2015 at 02:39:16PM +0200, Georgi Guninski wrote:
> On Sun, Oct 25, 2015 at 11:31:24AM +0100, stef wrote:
> > after the much successful list of coderman regarding contributors-to-be-
> > filtered, allow me to present you the list of the most - netiquette-wise -
> > unrespectful contributors to this list:
> > 
> > (you can find the explanation of each lint in the source code here:
> > https://gist.github.com/stef/f35c1339d7013f7966b8)
> >
> 
> I think my longlines trolls are false positives.

as it states in the doc in the gist, longlines can be false positives,
especially with urls.

> 1. Quoting long lines
> (Don't feel like editing what I reply to)

iirc long lined quotes are not counted towards the quoter

> As an aside, another fuckometer is number
> of times "fuck" appears in the message ;)

indeed, a nice one.

-- 
otr fp: https://www.ctrlc.hu/~stef/otr.txt




From guninski at guninski.com  Mon Oct 26 05:39:16 2015
From: guninski at guninski.com (Georgi Guninski)
Date: Mon, 26 Oct 2015 14:39:16 +0200
Subject: mailing list etiquette violators list
In-Reply-To: <20151025103124.GW7122@ctrlc.hu>
References: <20151025103124.GW7122@ctrlc.hu>
Message-ID: <20151026123916.GA2794@sivokote.iziade.m$>

On Sun, Oct 25, 2015 at 11:31:24AM +0100, stef wrote:
> after the much successful list of coderman regarding contributors-to-be-
> filtered, allow me to present you the list of the most - netiquette-wise -
> unrespectful contributors to this list:
> 
> (you can find the explanation of each lint in the source code here:
> https://gist.github.com/stef/f35c1339d7013f7966b8)
>

I think my longlines trolls are false positives.

Using vim for composing with wrapping.

Would be very surprised if the long lines
aren't covered by:

1. Quoting long lines
(Don't feel like editing what I reply to)
2. Long URLs without whitespace

As an aside, another fuckometer is number
of times "fuck" appears in the message ;)




From l at odewijk.nl  Mon Oct 26 07:36:24 2015
From: l at odewijk.nl (=?UTF-8?Q?Lodewijk_andr=C3=A9_de_la_porte?=)
Date: Mon, 26 Oct 2015 15:36:24 +0100
Subject: mailing list etiquette violators list
In-Reply-To: <20151026131753.GH7122@ctrlc.hu>
References: <20151025103124.GW7122@ctrlc.hu>
 <20151026123916.GA2794@sivokote.iziade.m$>
 <20151026131753.GH7122@ctrlc.hu>
Message-ID: <CAHWD2r+pFmWV=Eop5_9sopRwg1cPPq4i_RcUkv25AEhS6fDNNQ@mail.gmail.com>

How did I not end up on this list? I have these accidental quote accidents
quite a lot :s

(and was also on coderman's list, I believe. Probably because I'm an
obnoxious brat.)
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From grarpamp at gmail.com  Mon Oct 26 15:14:36 2015
From: grarpamp at gmail.com (grarpamp)
Date: Mon, 26 Oct 2015 18:14:36 -0400
Subject: The Okinawa missiles of October
Message-ID: <CAD2Ti28YLO33X5Quym-kHNZ=Jt5V6=+2O7gTwrfAi=eK5Tz71g@mail.gmail.com>

http://thebulletin.org/okinawa-missiles-october8826

John Bordne, a resident of Blakeslee, Penn., had to keep a personal
history to himself for more than five decades. ... The story begins
just after midnight, in the wee hours of October 28, 1962, at the very
height of the Cuban Missile Crisis. Then-Air Force airman John Bordne
says he began his shift full of apprehension. At the time, in response
to the developing crisis over secret Soviet missile deployments in
Cuba, all US strategic forces had been raised to Defense Readiness
Condition 2, or DEFCON2; that is, they were prepared to move to
DEFCON1 status within a matter of minutes. Once at DEFCON1, a missile
could be launched within a minute of a crew being instructed to do so.
...

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vasili_Arkhipov
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stanislav_Petrov




From zen at freedbms.net  Mon Oct 26 15:15:37 2015
From: zen at freedbms.net (Zenaan Harkness)
Date: Mon, 26 Oct 2015 22:15:37 +0000
Subject: Russian Ships Near Data Cables
In-Reply-To: <562E66F7.7040108@riseup.net>
References: <CAD2Ti29Xse4pAJ9_FGdbXCT=zPD1p0G+qXWzYusXFSpntiPwoA@mail.gmail.com>
 <562E66F7.7040108@riseup.net>
Message-ID: <CAOsGNSStRb8UQT_jxgP-t0iyid8ta8wxFrmB2EcroK0Zfp6MiQ@mail.gmail.com>

On 10/26/15, Razer <Rayzer at riseup.net> wrote:
> On 10/26/2015 10:20 AM, grarpamp wrote:
>> http://www.nytimes.com/2015/10/26/world/europe/russian-presence-near-undersea-cables-concerns-us.html
>> The locations of the cables are hardly secret. "Undersea cables
>> tend to follow the similar path since they were laid in the 1860s,"...
>> The exceptions are special cables, with secret locations, that have
>> been commissioned by the United States for military operations;
>> they do not show up on widely available maps, and it is possible
>> the Russians are hunting for those, officials said.
>
> The 'secret' cables are easy to find. They go directly to Diego Garcia.

Probably Russia sending another message. It's the new black: "We have
ways to notice makes you."

Putin is quite the intellectual, and very consistent (some people call
that integrity):
http://en.kremlin.ru/events/president/news/50548
"Meeting of the Valdai International Discussion Club" 22 October 2015
- very good read, only true statesman on the world stage today I say.




From rysiek at hackerspace.pl  Mon Oct 26 15:40:09 2015
From: rysiek at hackerspace.pl (rysiek)
Date: Mon, 26 Oct 2015 23:40:09 +0100
Subject: OT fuckery, literally  [was: list sans smtp spillage]
In-Reply-To: <20151024215153.A0712680128@frontend2.nyi.internal>
References: <CAJVRA1Qsx_vpf8ppOActj0OHhaMnK-bHOJc2ycnxUc365F0iag@mail.gmail.com>
 <562BF982.80508@riseup.net>
 <20151024215153.A0712680128@frontend2.nyi.internal>
Message-ID: <5904401.Pjmn6PY2Ar@lapuntu>

Dnia sobota, 24 października 2015 14:52:10 Shelley pisze:
> When I lived in Manhattan, I overheard the phrase "Fuck you, ya fuckin'
> fuck!" used more than a few times (usually having to do with traffic!)
> 
> Fuck can be a useful word, I use it myself.  But the language is so vast;
> creative insults are so much more satisfying, imho.

Use it loudly and proudly!
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=26UA578yQ5g

-- 
Pozdrawiam,
Michał "rysiek" Woźniak

Zmieniam klucz GPG :: http://rys.io/pl/147
GPG Key Transition :: http://rys.io/en/147
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From zen at freedbms.net  Mon Oct 26 16:45:42 2015
From: zen at freedbms.net (Zenaan Harkness)
Date: Mon, 26 Oct 2015 23:45:42 +0000
Subject: Russians running amok
Message-ID: <CAOsGNSRD8CXujsyrQ8r_ziJiRa_-xO0sGeAG6p0HC1YMkWc2aQ@mail.gmail.com>

Barely can myself I contain, justify words simply cannot!

Those naughty, naughty Russians:
"The worst news about the continuing improvement and upgrades of the
Kalibr [long range missiles] family is its new launcher. Russian
missile designers apparently have imagination that is allowed to run
amok. They have put a launcher with four Kalibr missiles into a
standard shipping container that cross oceans by hundreds of thousands
loaded onto standard commercial vessels."

http://russia-insider.com/en/military/how-russias-cruise-missiles-change-strategic-military-balance/ri10730




From l at odewijk.nl  Mon Oct 26 17:46:35 2015
From: l at odewijk.nl (=?UTF-8?Q?Lodewijk_andr=C3=A9_de_la_porte?=)
Date: Tue, 27 Oct 2015 01:46:35 +0100
Subject: mailing list etiquette violators list
In-Reply-To: <562E62B0.4080803@riseup.net>
References: <20151025103124.GW7122@ctrlc.hu>
 <CAD2Ti2-Y7DqOw4ycOP7vJoBLpAhf1C22FS5zMCyPsTy_1cLneQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <562D1A98.3080602@lig.net> <20151026070242.GC45162@r4>
 <562E62B0.4080803@riseup.net>
Message-ID: <CAHWD2rLpkga1eFE5g=9-_sJsajOUeQq9esrn=OEeQx=y5+X3ag@mail.gmail.com>

2015-10-26 18:28 GMT+01:00 Razer <Rayzer at riseup.net>:

> That's the ONLY time narrow columns
> are easy to read, unless your attention has a deficit and you lose track
> of your place on the line... The reason the columns are narrow is to
> allow for easier placement of advertising... the reason newspapers exist
> at all.
>

Not true at all. Many people have trouble tracking long lines, partially
because eyes are jumpy (not scrolling). Some people have this very
seriously, but are otherwise fine (far as humans go).

This is also something testable. There's empirical research. According to
this <http://www.tandfonline.com/doi/abs/10.1080/01449290410001715714>
"An empirical demonstration carried out by Morrison and Rayner (1981)
confirmed that saccade size is consistent in terms of number of characters,
and not visual angle"
meaning, you plop your eyes a certain amount of characters - not angle. You
read a certain amount of chars per peek, and variable width might confuse
you (maybe).

"If the lines are too short, readers cannot make use of much information in
each fixation. If line lengths are too long, the return sweeps to the
beginning of the next line are difficult."
Pretty straightforward/as expected

"(..) 2.2A + 21 ms (Carpenter 1977), which means that the greater number of
return sweeps with shorter lines will add more to the time than longer
lines."
Not sure about the unit of A (amplitude?) but it means you take 21 ms, plus
some measure of distance, to move your eyes from x to y.

The authors seem to be fans of the idea that reading speed simply improves
from longer lines, up to about 130 characters, after which the line becomes
unwieldy. Some in-print research showed 70 or 52 (?) characters to be the
ideal width. I find it amusing that these relate roughly to coders'
standards of 60, 80 or 120 characters.

Ultimately, a bit offtopic and I apologize.

Postultimate, write a preprocessor if you hate malformatted text so much?
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From carimachet at gmail.com  Mon Oct 26 18:25:47 2015
From: carimachet at gmail.com (Cari Machet)
Date: Tue, 27 Oct 2015 03:25:47 +0200
Subject: list sans smtp spillage
In-Reply-To: <CAOsGNSSPd-QiC1EEB0Hc+NHxL1TSjTz6esbcMKknuR4e9OfF-Q@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAJVRA1Qsx_vpf8ppOActj0OHhaMnK-bHOJc2ycnxUc365F0iag@mail.gmail.com>
 <op.x6yt821ebgbjo9@laptop>
 <CAKtE3zd0HXwNYf0O8ABoz31=jekM=QcghC0YaOBVO6VDkHsrFA@mail.gmail.com>
 <20151023162045.1F3C3C00014@frontend1.nyi.internal>
 <562AF01A.70003@riseup.net>
 <CAGRDzQVgkpg=Qo2z-zP+ojiJJes006PK3VTCX2YZDNksDp6C-A@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAKtE3zdVzgAvrdQAWqae_i-4UR-RV3xkEiEHOMz_-kixngrEkA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAGRDzQXhygHgTEymXUhHHS6OpWYg3M0=i6Q0Gpaa1rJzv2L3eA@mail.gmail.com>
 <562BDC2A.8030001@riseup.net> <562CEA30.5000200@pilobilus.net>
 <562CF602.8000605@riseup.net> <562CFC35.70605@pilobilus.net>
 <562D01A3.2080802@riseup.net> <562D1394.2010700@pilobilus.net>
 <CAOsGNSSPd-QiC1EEB0Hc+NHxL1TSjTz6esbcMKknuR4e9OfF-Q@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAGRDzQUZnX7wMdEEczSC8c=MFFGP8cjyQWe-m2WqhOzHZx53Kw@mail.gmail.com>

I do agree with steve that the use of the word fuck is a exploitation or
degradation of sex/love which is not that great

We need new words

There have been psyche tests on using swear words ... that is benificial to
the psyche as a sort of release ... some fri3nds of mine that are autistic
find using them to be really helpful but which words using is important

I have 2 friends that had a giant fight about this very thing - one woman
was dutch one american - the dutch hated that the new yorker said fuck and
the new yorker hated and argued against the dutch woman using the word cunt
- which is very common in dutch culture - the giant fight was the demise of
their friendship

The dutch stated using fuck was degrading to love

The new yorker stated using cunt was degrading to women

The dutch said degrading love was far worse than degrading women

<3
On Oct 26, 2015 4:48 AM, "Zenaan Harkness" <zen at freedbms.net> wrote:

> On 10/25/15, Steve Kinney <admin at pilobilus.net> wrote:
> > -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
> > Hash: SHA1
> >
> > On 10/25/2015 12:21 PM, Razer wrote:
> >>
> >>
> >> On 10/25/2015 08:58 AM, Steve Kinney wrote:
> >>> On 10/25/2015 11:32 AM, Razer wrote:
> >>>> There were no "Purges" in Vietnam.
> >>>
> >>> IIRC there were, though of course not on a scale to rival Pol
> >>> Pot & Co.  However, that's beside the point:  I was talking
> >>> about Amerikan politics, not Asian history.
> >>>
> >>> :o)
> >>>
> >>
> >> I'm SURE the citizens of Vietnam took good care of their
> >> traitors... To the best of my knowledge there were never any
> >> government organized purges. What angry citizens might have
> >> done to Special Forces installed "Provincial Governments" and
> >> errant unfortunate ARVN soldiers does NOT qualify as a purge.
> >> What Amerika did to it's labor unionists in the early 1900s
> >> does though. America's politics DEPEND on the belief in
> >> "Righteous wars" and I'm here to say The US has NEVER fought
> >> one. It's a myth.
> >
> > War is public murder for private profit.  I don't know of any
> > counter-examples.  Again we are up against a collective psychosis,
> > normalized by a long history of public acceptance and elaborate
> > rationalizations.  Sometimes one sees Bad Guys vs. Worse Guys, but
> > whenever it's Guys vs. Guys the best that can be accomplished is
> > some amount of damage control.  Everyone who takes up arms to
> > settle the disputes of their rulers and de facto owners is a
> > traitor to the human race as a whole.
>
> The challenge is how to spread such a meme effectively, powerfully.
>
> Then perhaps there'd be a hope that people would take up arms against
> their owners, or at least in defence of their families (I've posted
> the post Hurricane Katrina illegal weapons confiscations by federal
> military - no one, NO ONE failed to give up their arms (although TBH I
> cannot of course speak to those who denied they had any guns in their
> respective home - would love to see some true stories of humans with
> spines, balls and ovaries!))
>
> And since Credit River Decision, no judge will take up a ruling
> against the banks.
>
> And since the machine gun slaughter of the early unionists, as you
> hint at above, all unions have fallen to infiltration/ corruption in
> relatively short order.
>
> FUCK it's a fucked up world! Juan, PLEASE tell me there's a better one
> somewhere, somehow?
>
>
> > The "fog of war" has another name, propaganda, and all sides of
> > every armed conflict write press releases to establish that their
> > only motive is "necessary self defence," or the currently popular
> > "responsibility to protect others."  The other side of every armed
> > conflict always started it, and the regular folks on the other
> > side of that border deserve whatever happens to them because they
> > failed to stop it.
> >
> > Too much factual information about war results in large numbers of
> > people banding together to have a go at kicking the war machine to
> > pieces.  So never mind that "ain't gonna study war no more" crap;
> > study the fuck out of war and encourage others to do likewise.
>
> ACK! Fuck the fucken war cause that fucken fucker's a fucking fucked
> up death fest of evil.
> Z
>
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From europus at gmail.com  Tue Oct 27 04:59:07 2015
From: europus at gmail.com (Ulex Europae)
Date: Tue, 27 Oct 2015 07:59:07 -0400
Subject: list sans smtp spillage
In-Reply-To: <CAGRDzQUZnX7wMdEEczSC8c=MFFGP8cjyQWe-m2WqhOzHZx53Kw@mail.g
 mail.com>
References: <CAJVRA1Qsx_vpf8ppOActj0OHhaMnK-bHOJc2ycnxUc365F0iag@mail.gmail.com>
 <op.x6yt821ebgbjo9@laptop>
 <CAKtE3zd0HXwNYf0O8ABoz31=jekM=QcghC0YaOBVO6VDkHsrFA@mail.gmail.com>
 <20151023162045.1F3C3C00014@frontend1.nyi.internal>
 <562AF01A.70003@riseup.net>
 <CAGRDzQVgkpg=Qo2z-zP+ojiJJes006PK3VTCX2YZDNksDp6C-A@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAKtE3zdVzgAvrdQAWqae_i-4UR-RV3xkEiEHOMz_-kixngrEkA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAGRDzQXhygHgTEymXUhHHS6OpWYg3M0=i6Q0Gpaa1rJzv2L3eA@mail.gmail.com>
 <562BDC2A.8030001@riseup.net> <562CEA30.5000200@pilobilus.net>
 <562CF602.8000605@riseup.net> <562CFC35.70605@pilobilus.net>
 <562D01A3.2080802@riseup.net> <562D1394.2010700@pilobilus.net>
 <CAOsGNSSPd-QiC1EEB0Hc+NHxL1TSjTz6esbcMKknuR4e9OfF-Q@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAGRDzQUZnX7wMdEEczSC8c=MFFGP8cjyQWe-m2WqhOzHZx53Kw@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <562f66f3.878b420a.29c82.0614@mx.google.com>

At 09:25 PM 10/26/2015, Cari Machet wrote:

>I do agree with steve that the use of the word fuck is a 
>exploitation or degradation of sex/love which is not that great

Fuck that.

Now, did I say something exploitative or degrading about sex/love
or was it merely a coarse rejection of a notional assertion?

>The dutch stated using fuck was degrading to love
>
>The new yorker stated using cunt was degrading to women
>
>The dutch said degrading love was far worse than degrading women

Word meanings change over time. To not acknowledge and take this
into consideration reveals an agenda.

Watch while I now make some vacuous claim about something else:

<insert vacuous claim here>

--ue




From Rayzer at riseup.net  Tue Oct 27 08:21:24 2015
From: Rayzer at riseup.net (Razer)
Date: Tue, 27 Oct 2015 08:21:24 -0700
Subject: mailing list etiquette violators list
In-Reply-To: <CAHWD2rLpkga1eFE5g=9-_sJsajOUeQq9esrn=OEeQx=y5+X3ag@mail.gmail.com>
References: <20151025103124.GW7122@ctrlc.hu>
 <CAD2Ti2-Y7DqOw4ycOP7vJoBLpAhf1C22FS5zMCyPsTy_1cLneQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <562D1A98.3080602@lig.net> <20151026070242.GC45162@r4>
 <562E62B0.4080803@riseup.net>
 <CAHWD2rLpkga1eFE5g=9-_sJsajOUeQq9esrn=OEeQx=y5+X3ag@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <562F9674.4010908@riseup.net>



On 10/26/2015 05:46 PM, Lodewijk andré de la porte wrote:
> 2015-10-26 18:28 GMT+01:00 Razer <Rayzer at riseup.net
> <mailto:Rayzer at riseup.net>>:
>
>     That's the ONLY time narrow columns
>     are easy to read, unless your attention has a deficit and you lose
>     track
>     of your place on the line... The reason the columns are narrow is to
>     allow for easier placement of advertising... the reason newspapers
>     exist
>     at all.
>
>
> Not true at all. Many people have trouble tracking long lines,
> partially because eyes are jumpy (not scrolling). Some people have
> this very seriously, but are otherwise fine (far as humans go).
>
> This is also something testable. There's empirical research. According
> to this <http://www.tandfonline.com/doi/abs/10.1080/01449290410001715714> 
> "An empirical demonstration carried out by Morrison and Rayner (1981)
> confirmed that saccade size is consistent in terms of number of
> characters, and not visual angle"
> meaning, you plop your eyes a certain amount of characters - not
> angle. You read a certain amount of chars per peek, and variable width
> might confuse you (maybe).
>
> "If the lines are too short, readers cannot make use of much
> information in each fixation. If line lengths are too long, the return
> sweeps to the beginning of the next line are difficult."
> Pretty straightforward/as expected
>
> "(..) 2.2A + 21 ms (Carpenter 1977), which means that the greater
> number of return sweeps with shorter lines will add more to the time
> than longer lines."
> Not sure about the unit of A (amplitude?) but it means you take 21 ms,
> plus some measure of distance, to move your eyes from x to y.
>
> The authors seem to be fans of the idea that reading speed simply
> improves from longer lines, up to about 130 characters, after which
> the line becomes unwieldy. Some in-print research showed 70 or 52 (?)
> characters to be the ideal width. I find it amusing that these relate
> roughly to coders' standards of 60, 80 or 120 characters.
>
> Ultimately, a bit offtopic and I apologize.
>
> Postultimate, write a preprocessor if you hate malformatted text so much?
>
>
>



A wonderful longline elucidation I had no trouble reading. Must remember
to do the math next time.

RR

Ps. Fuck experts AND their "studies". I KNOW SOMEONE got paid to to do
that, and THE ADVERTISING INDUSTRY was SURELY the payee/beneficiary of
the study.

Have I ever mentioned that "If I were Stalin" the people I'd line up
against a wall for the firing squad would be marketers, and the
psychologists and sociologists that collude with them?

That would also take care of academics who pimp themselves to the
Pentagon's COIN programs.


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From zen at freedbms.net  Tue Oct 27 03:27:01 2015
From: zen at freedbms.net (Zenaan Harkness)
Date: Tue, 27 Oct 2015 10:27:01 +0000
Subject: a Cypherpunk not in our midst - "The End of Communism in Russia Meant
 the End of Democracy in the West"
Message-ID: <CAOsGNSTTa3KB0K=bTW7F096ppDiuKn--bAmBw71pK1x6oATnfA@mail.gmail.com>

http://russia-insider.com/en/history/russian-thinker-1999the-end-communism-russai-signalized-end-democracy-west-alexander

This interview is from 1999, seems too long to copy and paste, and
there's no danger of it disappearing, so here's just a snippet:

"Q: All totalitarian systems had their own ideology. What is the
ideology of the new society you call post-democratic?
A: The most influential Western thinkers and politicians believe that
we have entered the post-ideological epoch. This is because by
“ideology” they mean communism, fascism, nazism, etc. In reality, the
ideology, the super-ideology of the Western world, developed over the
last fifty years is much stronger than communism or national
socialism. A western citizen is being brainwashed much more than a
soviet citizen ever was during the era of communist propaganda. In
ideology, the main thing is not the ideas, but rather the mechanisms
of their distribution. The might of the Western media, for example, is
incomparably greater than that of the propaganda mechanisms of the
Vatican when it was at the zenith of its power. And it is not only the
cinema, literature, philosophy - all the levers of influence and
mechanisms used in the promulgation of culture, in its broadest sense,
work in this direction. At the slightest impulse all who work in this
area respond with such consistency that it is hard not to think that
all orders come from a single source of power. It was enough to decide
to stigmatize General Karadžić or President Milošević or someone else
for the whole planetary propaganda machine to start working against
them. As a result, instead of condemning politicians and NATO generals
for violation of all existing laws, the vast majority of Western
citizens is convinced that the war against Serbia was necessary and
just. Western ideology combines and mixes ideas based on its needs.
One of these ideas is that Western values and lifestyle are the best
in the world! Although for most people on the planet these values have
disastrous consequences. Try to convince Americans that these values
will destroy Russia. You will not be able to. They will continue to
assert the thesis of universalism of Western values, therefore
following one of the fundamental principles of ideological dogmatism.
Theorists, politicians and media of the West are absolutely sure that
their system is the best. That is why they impose it around the world
without a doubt and with a clear conscience. Western man as the
carrier of these highest values is therefore a new superman. The term
itself is a taboo, but It all comes down to this. This phenomenon
should be studied scientifically. But I dare to say that it has become
extremely difficult to conduct scientific research in some areas of
sociology and history. The scientist who desires to research
mechanisms of democratic totalitarianism will face extreme
difficulties. He will be made into an outcast. On the other hand,
those whose research serves the dominant ideology are flooded with
grants while publishing houses and media are fighting for the right to
work with such authors. I have personally experienced it  when I have
been teaching and working as a researcher at foreign universities."




From Rayzer at riseup.net  Tue Oct 27 10:42:26 2015
From: Rayzer at riseup.net (Razer)
Date: Tue, 27 Oct 2015 10:42:26 -0700
Subject: mailing list etiquette violators list
In-Reply-To: <CAHWD2rJu1=U5vq9pJvo_vyYUE9b8wXDgPZ0x57VNu8nBcvBWGA@mail.gmail.com>
References: <20151025103124.GW7122@ctrlc.hu>
 <CAD2Ti2-Y7DqOw4ycOP7vJoBLpAhf1C22FS5zMCyPsTy_1cLneQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <562D1A98.3080602@lig.net> <20151026070242.GC45162@r4>
 <562E62B0.4080803@riseup.net>
 <CAHWD2rLpkga1eFE5g=9-_sJsajOUeQq9esrn=OEeQx=y5+X3ag@mail.gmail.com>
 <562F9674.4010908@riseup.net>
 <CAHWD2rJu1=U5vq9pJvo_vyYUE9b8wXDgPZ0x57VNu8nBcvBWGA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <562FB782.2030809@riseup.net>



On 10/27/2015 10:27 AM, Lodewijk andré de la porte wrote:
> 2015-10-27 16:21 GMT+01:00 Razer <Rayzer at riseup.net
> <mailto:Rayzer at riseup.net>>:
>
>     Have I ever mentioned that "If I were Stalin" the people I'd line
>     up against a wall for the firing squad would be marketers, and the
>     psychologists and sociologists that collude with them?
>
>
> geez, chill
> it's not like they're intentionally malicious

I can hear it now, from the tribunal hall:

> "I vas only following grant money!"

For some people, four walls are three too many. Do you REALIZE the
amount of neuro-psychogical damage advertising has done to industrial
societies.

Let's start with the net socioeconomic effect of revolving charge
consumer debt economic slavery because 'shiny .. shiny' "stuff" which
we'll be subhuman if we don't own, bombarding our brains almost every
waking second today...

"Elections" ... What DO you think the US political parties are doing
with that flood of Citizens United corporate cash? Get-out-the-vote
phone banks? ROTF!

http://razedbywolves.blogspot.com/2010/01/its-not-money-its-what-they-do-with-it.html

I COULD go on...

But I'll refer you to this entertaining music video instead:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zYTRIGtyZ44

RR


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From guninski at guninski.com  Tue Oct 27 02:23:44 2015
From: guninski at guninski.com (Georgi Guninski)
Date: Tue, 27 Oct 2015 11:23:44 +0200
Subject: list sans smtp spillage
In-Reply-To: <CAGRDzQUZnX7wMdEEczSC8c=MFFGP8cjyQWe-m2WqhOzHZx53Kw@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAKtE3zdVzgAvrdQAWqae_i-4UR-RV3xkEiEHOMz_-kixngrEkA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAGRDzQXhygHgTEymXUhHHS6OpWYg3M0=i6Q0Gpaa1rJzv2L3eA@mail.gmail.com>
 <562BDC2A.8030001@riseup.net> <562CEA30.5000200@pilobilus.net>
 <562CF602.8000605@riseup.net> <562CFC35.70605@pilobilus.net>
 <562D01A3.2080802@riseup.net> <562D1394.2010700@pilobilus.net>
 <CAOsGNSSPd-QiC1EEB0Hc+NHxL1TSjTz6esbcMKknuR4e9OfF-Q@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAGRDzQUZnX7wMdEEczSC8c=MFFGP8cjyQWe-m2WqhOzHZx53Kw@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <20151027092344.GA2724@sivokote.iziade.m$>

On Tue, Oct 27, 2015 at 03:25:47AM +0200, Cari Machet wrote:
> I do agree with steve that the use of the word fuck is a exploitation or
> degradation of sex/love which is not that great
> 
> We need new words
>

Hm, is is "let rhinoceroses and hedgehogs fuck X" degradation of
sex/love?

AFAIK some Serbian curses using "fuck" border with criminal threats or
worse.




From shelley at misanthropia.org  Tue Oct 27 12:17:18 2015
From: shelley at misanthropia.org (Shelley)
Date: Tue, 27 Oct 2015 12:17:18 -0700
Subject: mailing list etiquette violators list
In-Reply-To: <562FB782.2030809@riseup.net>
References: <20151025103124.GW7122@ctrlc.hu>
 <CAD2Ti2-Y7DqOw4ycOP7vJoBLpAhf1C22FS5zMCyPsTy_1cLneQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <562D1A98.3080602@lig.net> <20151026070242.GC45162@r4>
 <562E62B0.4080803@riseup.net>
 <CAHWD2rLpkga1eFE5g=9-_sJsajOUeQq9esrn=OEeQx=y5+X3ag@mail.gmail.com>
 <562F9674.4010908@riseup.net>
 <CAHWD2rJu1=U5vq9pJvo_vyYUE9b8wXDgPZ0x57VNu8nBcvBWGA@mail.gmail.com>
 <562FB782.2030809@riseup.net>
Message-ID: <20151027191701.7F2F168014F@frontend2.nyi.internal>

On October 27, 2015 10:49:05 AM Razer <Rayzer at riseup.net> wrote:

A post which I agree with, 100%.  Comments inline.

>
>
> On 10/27/2015 10:27 AM, Lodewijk andré de la porte wrote:
> > 2015-10-27 16:21 GMT+01:00 Razer <Rayzer at riseup.net
> > <mailto:Rayzer at riseup.net>>:
> >
> >     Have I ever mentioned that "If I were Stalin" the people I'd line
> >     up against a wall for the firing squad would be marketers, and the
> >     psychologists and sociologists that collude with them?
> >
> >
> > geez, chill
> > it's not like they're intentionally malicious
>
> I can hear it now, from the tribunal hall:
>
> > "I vas only following grant money!"

Yep!  Milgram thoroughly discredited the "only following orders" excuse 
decades ago.  (Look deeper the initial study they always talk about in 
popular media; Milgram repeated that experiment covering nearly every 
variable, at least 40 of them.  0% (zero) of participants continued 
administering the faux, potentially damaging/fatal shocks when told "you 
have no choice." Z e r o.)

>
> For some people, four walls are three too many. Do you REALIZE the
> amount of neuro-psychogical damage advertising has done to industrial
> societies.

There are not enough +1s I can give you for this.

>
> Let's start with the net socioeconomic effect of revolving charge
> consumer debt economic slavery because 'shiny .. shiny' "stuff" which
> we'll be subhuman if we don't own, bombarding our brains almost every
> waking second today...
>

Truth.  Making people think they must have useless crap... and hey, 
mindless consuming = economic stimulus, so now you're patriotic! It's 
pernicious and deceitful.

This manipulative propaganda has incredibly negative effects it has on the 
very concept of self.  It sets up unrealistic expectations of everything 
from self image to gender roles.  A complete distortion of what society is 
and what really matters in life.

They'll say anything to make a buck, and it *must* be true because it's on 
the tee vee!  You know, the home of "reality" shows and "fair and balanced 
news" for which you should "lean forward." (Left, right - all are corrupt 
and pwned by the same damn corporate pigs. Same hand, different puppet.)

> "Elections" ... What DO you think the US political parties are doing
> with that flood of Citizens United corporate cash? Get-out-the-vote
> phone banks? ROTF!
>
> http://razedbywolves.blogspot.com/2010/01/its-not-money-its-what-they-do-with-it.html
>

(Intentionally left in the blog post URL. If you haven't yet read it, go do 
that now.)

That's a very insightful post, Razer.  If you have to say more than that 
for someone to get a clue, there's not enough critical thinking left in 
them to get through.

Citizens United... the PATRIOT ACT... gotta love how they wrap up rancid 
turds in shiny words.

-S





From shelley at misanthropia.org  Tue Oct 27 13:47:39 2015
From: shelley at misanthropia.org (Shelley)
Date: Tue, 27 Oct 2015 13:47:39 -0700
Subject: mailing list etiquette violators list
In-Reply-To: <CAHWD2r+=29QLSCVw=u8+NKme2tYqE=rcdSbzS7t+D7Dp+M=Oqw@mail.gmail.com>
References: <20151025103124.GW7122@ctrlc.hu>
 <CAD2Ti2-Y7DqOw4ycOP7vJoBLpAhf1C22FS5zMCyPsTy_1cLneQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <562D1A98.3080602@lig.net> <20151026070242.GC45162@r4>
 <562E62B0.4080803@riseup.net>
 <CAHWD2rLpkga1eFE5g=9-_sJsajOUeQq9esrn=OEeQx=y5+X3ag@mail.gmail.com>
 <562F9674.4010908@riseup.net>
 <CAHWD2rJu1=U5vq9pJvo_vyYUE9b8wXDgPZ0x57VNu8nBcvBWGA@mail.gmail.com>
 <562FB782.2030809@riseup.net>
 <20151027191701.7F2F168014F@frontend2.nyi.internal>
 <CAHWD2r+=29QLSCVw=u8+NKme2tYqE=rcdSbzS7t+D7Dp+M=Oqw@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <20151027204723.6765568016F@frontend2.nyi.internal>

On October 27, 2015 12:27:39 PM Lodewijk andré de la porte <l at odewijk.nl> 
wrote:

> Don't hate the player, hate the game.

I dislike both.

>
> Suggestions for alternatives to the game are welcome. Saying "omg so
> fucked" is basically a useless culturally biased statement.
>
> I also don't like the attitude of "shiny shiny stuff" being just that.

>Most of our shiny stuff we get for good reason…
>

So, so wrong.

Suggestions, in no particular order:

- Don't buy the newest iCrap (or car or tv) every time they shit one out: 
you *don't * need it, I assure you.

- Learn how to fix and repurpose things.  Take good care of your things so 
they last longer.

- Freecycle, trade with others

- Shop at second hand and thrift stores for most things.

- Think before you buy.  Try to support true fair trade/fair wages and buy 
locally whenever possible.  Hint: it's usually possible.

- Use a bike or public transit whenever possible.  Get rid of your car and 
use things like Zip Car for the few occasions when you need to use a 
personal vehicle.  Share a car with friends if you truly need it for 
kids/work/whatever.

- Prepare your own damn food.  Go vegan.

(Hey, you asked for suggestions: these are mine.)

-S





From Rayzer at riseup.net  Tue Oct 27 14:11:35 2015
From: Rayzer at riseup.net (Razer)
Date: Tue, 27 Oct 2015 14:11:35 -0700
Subject: mailing list etiquette violators list
In-Reply-To: <CAHWD2r+=29QLSCVw=u8+NKme2tYqE=rcdSbzS7t+D7Dp+M=Oqw@mail.gmail.com>
References: <20151025103124.GW7122@ctrlc.hu>
 <CAD2Ti2-Y7DqOw4ycOP7vJoBLpAhf1C22FS5zMCyPsTy_1cLneQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <562D1A98.3080602@lig.net> <20151026070242.GC45162@r4>
 <562E62B0.4080803@riseup.net>
 <CAHWD2rLpkga1eFE5g=9-_sJsajOUeQq9esrn=OEeQx=y5+X3ag@mail.gmail.com>
 <562F9674.4010908@riseup.net>
 <CAHWD2rJu1=U5vq9pJvo_vyYUE9b8wXDgPZ0x57VNu8nBcvBWGA@mail.gmail.com>
 <562FB782.2030809@riseup.net>
 <20151027191701.7F2F168014F@frontend2.nyi.internal>
 <CAHWD2r+=29QLSCVw=u8+NKme2tYqE=rcdSbzS7t+D7Dp+M=Oqw@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <562FE887.4080407@riseup.net>

On 10/27/2015 12:27 PM, Lodewijk andré de la porte wrote:

> Most of our shiny stuff we get for good reason

That's what they all think... But someone whose paid to do so told them
what to think, or told their parents what to think, who then passed it
along to them.

Is there a good reason why every individual must own a smog-belching
metal box to transport their carcass around in? Is there a good reason
why anyone really needs a monitor screen that's as big as their living
room wall?

Please reconsider what 'good reason' means.

Ps. The "players" are psychopaths. I don't hate them. But they need to
be kept a safe distance from the rest of their respective societies. In
cages, where we can rattle the bars with sticks and taunt them just like
they taunt innocent children every Saturday morning during the
children's show segment of TeeVee broadcasting with ads for
nutrition-less 'food' and toys made in  sweatshops in far away places by
people we never see, who work 18 hour days, and all seem to have dark
skin and live under dictatorships.

As far as alternatives. Kill your tv. Get a life that puts your
community's needs ahead of yours /(now THAT'S a subversive and radical
concept... 'group first, me second')/. There's an extensive list, but
the repetitious drone of media drowns out sensible human behavior.

RR

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From carimachet at gmail.com  Tue Oct 27 05:44:19 2015
From: carimachet at gmail.com (Cari Machet)
Date: Tue, 27 Oct 2015 14:44:19 +0200
Subject: list sans smtp spillage
In-Reply-To: <562f66f3.878b420a.29c82.0614@mx.google.com>
References: <CAJVRA1Qsx_vpf8ppOActj0OHhaMnK-bHOJc2ycnxUc365F0iag@mail.gmail.com>
 <op.x6yt821ebgbjo9@laptop>
 <CAKtE3zd0HXwNYf0O8ABoz31=jekM=QcghC0YaOBVO6VDkHsrFA@mail.gmail.com>
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 <562AF01A.70003@riseup.net>
 <CAGRDzQVgkpg=Qo2z-zP+ojiJJes006PK3VTCX2YZDNksDp6C-A@mail.gmail.com>
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 <CAGRDzQXhygHgTEymXUhHHS6OpWYg3M0=i6Q0Gpaa1rJzv2L3eA@mail.gmail.com>
 <562BDC2A.8030001@riseup.net> <562CEA30.5000200@pilobilus.net>
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 <CAOsGNSSPd-QiC1EEB0Hc+NHxL1TSjTz6esbcMKknuR4e9OfF-Q@mail.gmail.com>
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Message-ID: <CAGRDzQVXjKaiLkwytjmxWVFMwj135JZOWak6a9HCfbYb5LK2=Q@mail.gmail.com>

I dont know-know but test it all out irl ask someone in love with you if
you can fuck them ...watch the facial expression

Steve could be wrong as steve was wrong about that upper eschelon no say
fuck

I am an artist and have worked with whats considered high level artists ...
say fuck more than me which seems impossible and these kind of caste
distinctions of words or body functions seem to slap in the face the life
of language

Well known thinkers and artists minds dont wotk overall in these
hierarchies ... exclusionary breaks of fenced off condemnation ... spaces
of life - all of them - are expressionable and loved which is actually very
difficult in having no good and bad no good and evil is a complexity the
western mind - christian mind finds hard to bare

Where can they put the control valves and buttons to press if there are no
societal goods and evils as if mass stupidity is the overall normative of
each and everyone needs instriction booklets with their bodies

I like that maybe both realities are acknowledged - saying fuck or mother
fucker is now considered a right  - to be upheld like other rights and
maybe also at the same time a degradation of women or love
On Oct 27, 2015 12:06 PM, "Ulex Europae" <europus at gmail.com> wrote:

> At 09:25 PM 10/26/2015, Cari Machet wrote:
>
> I do agree with steve that the use of the word fuck is a exploitation or
>> degradation of sex/love which is not that great
>>
>
> Fuck that.
>
> Now, did I say something exploitative or degrading about sex/love
> or was it merely a coarse rejection of a notional assertion?
>
> The dutch stated using fuck was degrading to love
>>
>> The new yorker stated using cunt was degrading to women
>>
>> The dutch said degrading love was far worse than degrading women
>>
>
> Word meanings change over time. To not acknowledge and take this
> into consideration reveals an agenda.
>
> Watch while I now make some vacuous claim about something else:
>
> <insert vacuous claim here>
>
> --ue
>
>
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From coderman at gmail.com  Tue Oct 27 15:41:23 2015
From: coderman at gmail.com (coderman)
Date: Tue, 27 Oct 2015 15:41:23 -0700
Subject: FOIPA adventures
In-Reply-To: <CAJVRA1T0E3Lny4YPOjvvCtpSZOmx5dim+nw7e_Zzz-PYXNUAjg@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAJVRA1SaJpNaPQx=s_7VVM==ony2sH0aUG3w11cjNX6escSm8w@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAJVRA1TUfu40206TOzK2kBsgCvbgBYYXmyKZ3E5n4KQuoEtZyg@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAJVRA1QtgMky_hsDLsmFwiXcxE528bZaDOQsjTqqj4tR-dbGBQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAJVRA1RwoyoRs-REWnhGd8cHZM6EJvcziTUDXbU5A6TMigOT6A@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAJVRA1Rwaq1fvE8p-s1JwOANvMc7X2E75bx5eNd4KGJapt6Nuw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAJVRA1TU5Frg3WOJk+3ZFEH0QAFya5xZnwzCfCUE+hL1NhKUFg@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAJVRA1Q0SDo9Fj3KAU9vA3cxR2=7pwcdpO3Ex=yi6g2WtRAg6A@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAJVRA1Srrb08Z9XvG+rYq30p2E_MnhJA6ynOLpdT--6gCvwiyQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAJVRA1RXD2dr16TJZK-MPcJm7nR0Ov=Dp9i5Anf5hKNFs2hq7w@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAJVRA1S97DSPk0NBjgon1LS4HHuGtq_03dqFppUnWq+t61a41A@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAJVRA1SyW_wOUcFUo6STbiePO8HmLV9LgF-PCgugvuPRD_tKWA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAJVRA1QaYYF=hoSQiSd4SHNUj-W6hjEJDhy1KxR9CfFKDgNkew@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAJVRA1TvZxj_qz6_xK8h13LOD-5mE6iNvT9dnThf4ue0_=kY3Q@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAJVRA1RbeuzfiVAOqaZ15p8kr67jxcBoNMOrJkt3K86_=FuVXw@mail.gmail.com>
 <000701d0bcb7$94118e80$bc34ab80$@co.uk>
 <CAJVRA1SE1O-PqmkV8vX=q5j_xs-YFOpH=OLxSvwaT8BBvadQmA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAJVRA1TwM3Re8Tz6NPxp_CeY5C4K3QN+Ceo5VbW3JKMbBABv9g@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAJVRA1SbqTrEbUJ84rLFWdu6+psY5uUzu-ZsVfyUwoSaMRcGdQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAJVRA1RDN6HsLCbF_wsK+zARO9PaEn80R9FSGnWgGVF4XkbbpQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAJVRA1Rt2gKvgnM0MCiqf2Q4vJ8wWxm=KabcQXeBYSqn4zRvKg@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAJVRA1Q95CKTVahkfQeH_pwaGDcgJ-4OL2=9o5ckQrZLG8HeUA@mail.gmail.com>
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 <CAJVRA1SgoLtLFS9AFf_d043AGDVbKp4djDtijDR+zfCRJ8twTA@mail.gmail.com>
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 <CAJVRA1Ry2EV7qaFHmZJ9cjm8-waCNBCzenO9BpqW+YKChEHX7w@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAJVRA1S5juVmB6Ouy0JWbdeJdj9yz0W6tKQDY2q_zi+AC461EA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAJVRA1SYO0ia4VGLwFwZFowkD75YR61MC1TNc1wzHbZtmhy1_w@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAJVRA1SqWMVy6m6KuiJWQQG_6XPWoB+86-p45PWKvfn8wg_jeA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAJVRA1RWaiCZtig6+Seyk-UN9M3h9+2iZ0Otnqb6n=AFcRAeRw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAJVRA1QzHeh=rs0hRf0sugLZdbXvAhK+2Yte5Tbt_Tnv5Tf8mg@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAJVRA1SdAW+36Z8yYTdSFTtz8S8U5aiELv5NiuXg5Rg-vaFYew@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAJVRA1Svk488ax6sd4oy52rfM_u_E1EuzhUAQt6cQ2Jy5yRx5g@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAJVRA1S4=X5P6hKnZu224GjseL5ws1vRm6Gk4gJ+DG06oLjaDA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAJVRA1RsgoKvADCcRz76vj1xjT+EQDB96tw7-sgg_pf+BGzA=A@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAJVRA1TOMYnBh0-B=uh6n2HsOsFdY+SKVG-=XqKi6WPNro++PA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAJVRA1Qao1qE2kBSbb_V5NPQ7PF--VFnYQpc=08wY2_ZURz4hg@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAJVRA1S45TEydVoKDxW9SfC0DKcSdxB_HfjrvcZQjU5uymfFOQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAD2Ti29j9qCnTCBEpaTj9B2NdWpLQoAiT02QzbitiART9tFg6A@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAJVRA1SAOUWi485z=_VRnhLu=EL1c8rVQOvdFz09-P4TjbLHww@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAJVRA1T0E3Lny4YPOjvvCtpSZOmx5dim+nw7e_Zzz-PYXNUAjg@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAJVRA1TtoL+tz0XYxNPSV7oE7HBVWORZ65Og6hrREQzreN6ozw@mail.gmail.com>

the NSA has one FOIA Reading Room,
 and it is located at:

National Cryptologic Museum
8290 Colony Seven Road
Annapolis Junction, MD 20701

https://www.muckrock.com/foi/united-states-of-america-10/freelyreadingrainbowed-21893/




From coderman at gmail.com  Tue Oct 27 15:55:36 2015
From: coderman at gmail.com (coderman)
Date: Tue, 27 Oct 2015 15:55:36 -0700
Subject: Obfuscation: how leaving a trail of confusion can beat online
 surveillance
In-Reply-To: <20151026141238.GV21947@leitl.org>
References: <20151026141238.GV21947@leitl.org>
Message-ID: <CAJVRA1RCj-Dt9wUR7ismA4PwggALDxbxoHbDFYKT4MZqkxjKLw@mail.gmail.com>

On 10/26/15, Eugen Leitl <eugen at leitl.org> wrote:
> ...
> Obfuscation: how leaving a trail of confusion can beat online surveillance

"... when nonsense makes sense!"


of course, like security, in excess a detriment.

if the most secure system connects to nothing,
 the most obtuse digital exhaust indistinguishable from noise...




From coderman at gmail.com  Tue Oct 27 16:08:30 2015
From: coderman at gmail.com (coderman)
Date: Tue, 27 Oct 2015 16:08:30 -0700
Subject: Russian Ships Near Data Cables
In-Reply-To: <CAOsGNSStRb8UQT_jxgP-t0iyid8ta8wxFrmB2EcroK0Zfp6MiQ@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAD2Ti29Xse4pAJ9_FGdbXCT=zPD1p0G+qXWzYusXFSpntiPwoA@mail.gmail.com>
 <562E66F7.7040108@riseup.net>
 <CAOsGNSStRb8UQT_jxgP-t0iyid8ta8wxFrmB2EcroK0Zfp6MiQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAJVRA1TswJbQWZESEZXY39APFu5rptXZ2o0gr6DN6jy-6pADWw@mail.gmail.com>

On 10/26/15, Zenaan Harkness <zen at freedbms.net> wrote:
> ...
> Probably Russia sending another message. It's the new black: "We have
> ways to notice makes you."


in the domain of cyber,
 nothing quite as destructive as deep sea fiber cuts.

old tricks the best tricks...

[ they call this the "nuclear" option for good reason. ]




From coderman at gmail.com  Tue Oct 27 16:29:16 2015
From: coderman at gmail.com (coderman)
Date: Tue, 27 Oct 2015 16:29:16 -0700
Subject: list sans smtp spillage
In-Reply-To: <CAJVRA1Qsx_vpf8ppOActj0OHhaMnK-bHOJc2ycnxUc365F0iag@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAJVRA1Qsx_vpf8ppOActj0OHhaMnK-bHOJc2ycnxUc365F0iag@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAJVRA1STFSc8SO2TZcv33e+wwKLYMR1vjzN+Ouo72suTdkDUYw@mail.gmail.com>

no one reads anymore?
 [ not even to skip to the TL;DR. ... ]


On 10/23/15, coderman <coderman at gmail.com> wrote:
> http://pastebin.com/Wy98Q3TJ
> ...
> ---end-cut---
>
> [ this encountered through paste crawlers searching for email addrs;
> not always indicative of a spill it turns out! ]


spillage == data spills. specifically, if alerted to a spill with your info.


P.S. tools to navigate through digital detritus,
  like this list,
   requisite for modern communication without overload.
start today! :)


best regards,




From l at odewijk.nl  Tue Oct 27 10:27:04 2015
From: l at odewijk.nl (=?UTF-8?Q?Lodewijk_andr=C3=A9_de_la_porte?=)
Date: Tue, 27 Oct 2015 18:27:04 +0100
Subject: mailing list etiquette violators list
In-Reply-To: <562F9674.4010908@riseup.net>
References: <20151025103124.GW7122@ctrlc.hu>
 <CAD2Ti2-Y7DqOw4ycOP7vJoBLpAhf1C22FS5zMCyPsTy_1cLneQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <562D1A98.3080602@lig.net> <20151026070242.GC45162@r4>
 <562E62B0.4080803@riseup.net>
 <CAHWD2rLpkga1eFE5g=9-_sJsajOUeQq9esrn=OEeQx=y5+X3ag@mail.gmail.com>
 <562F9674.4010908@riseup.net>
Message-ID: <CAHWD2rJu1=U5vq9pJvo_vyYUE9b8wXDgPZ0x57VNu8nBcvBWGA@mail.gmail.com>

2015-10-27 16:21 GMT+01:00 Razer <Rayzer at riseup.net>:

> Have I ever mentioned that "If I were Stalin" the people I'd line up
> against a wall for the firing squad would be marketers, and the
> psychologists and sociologists that collude with them?
>

geez, chill
it's not like they're intentionally malicious
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From jdb10987 at yahoo.com  Tue Oct 27 12:19:13 2015
From: jdb10987 at yahoo.com (jim bell)
Date: Tue, 27 Oct 2015 19:19:13 +0000 (UTC)
Subject: Ethereum and Auger
In-Reply-To: <20151024115306.GA2820@sivokote.iziade.m$>
References: <20151024115306.GA2820@sivokote.iziade.m$>
Message-ID: <1836992162.2024877.1445973553623.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com>

From: Georgi Guninski <guninski at guninski.com>
   
On Fri, Oct 23, 2015 at 08:08:33PM +0000, jim bell wrote:


>> If we are looking for interesting subjects to discuss, why not Ethereum    https://www.ethereum.org/  and Auger?  http://www.augur.net/ 
>>           Jim Bell
>> After months of development, we are proud to release our alpha version of Augur. This version showcases the basic features of our>>prediction>>market implementation. It's by no means feature complete and certainly prone to bugs.Tell us what you think and report any issues you have>>using the "Feedback" link in the app.
>DISCLAIMER: I quickly browsed both and well might be wrong.
>Here are some remarks about augur.
>Basically I don't think the crowd can make good predictions because of
>lack of skills and in addition sufficiently many "crowd actors" might
>turn the dice the other way.
Apparently they work on the principle that if decisions are made using a lot of input (many members of the public).   The PAM (Policy Analysis Market  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Policy_Analysis_Market  ) proposal from 2003 was intended to work on the same principle.  (The media quickly labelled it, "terrorism futures".)   Presumably if 'enough' of the crowd change the prediction, that will be for good reason if they have to burn 'reputation' too.

>There is a local saying that "one woman in general can give birth to a
>child in approximately 9 months" BUT "9 women can't give birth to a
>child in approximately one month".

If that was indeed what a crowdsourced prediction market was attempting to do, it would fail.  But that is not the case.  

Since augur mentions "market", likely the lovely NSA can put a lot of
bots on it, possibly just burning inflated virtual money.
I'm not sure I understand what may be your objection, but my understanding is that the Ethereum system is intended to be supported by means of some micropayment system, called 'ether'.  .  A DOS (denial of service) attack won't work if those attacking have to pay a small fee to communicate with the system.  

>I would recommend to them to try their skills on the lottery or on some>sport betting site ;)
Presumably Augur will be doing that, too.  Naturally, I can think of better things for a prediction market to be doing!!!             Jim Bell



  
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From l at odewijk.nl  Tue Oct 27 12:27:16 2015
From: l at odewijk.nl (=?UTF-8?Q?Lodewijk_andr=C3=A9_de_la_porte?=)
Date: Tue, 27 Oct 2015 20:27:16 +0100
Subject: mailing list etiquette violators list
In-Reply-To: <20151027191701.7F2F168014F@frontend2.nyi.internal>
References: <20151025103124.GW7122@ctrlc.hu>
 <CAD2Ti2-Y7DqOw4ycOP7vJoBLpAhf1C22FS5zMCyPsTy_1cLneQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <562D1A98.3080602@lig.net> <20151026070242.GC45162@r4>
 <562E62B0.4080803@riseup.net>
 <CAHWD2rLpkga1eFE5g=9-_sJsajOUeQq9esrn=OEeQx=y5+X3ag@mail.gmail.com>
 <562F9674.4010908@riseup.net>
 <CAHWD2rJu1=U5vq9pJvo_vyYUE9b8wXDgPZ0x57VNu8nBcvBWGA@mail.gmail.com>
 <562FB782.2030809@riseup.net>
 <20151027191701.7F2F168014F@frontend2.nyi.internal>
Message-ID: <CAHWD2r+=29QLSCVw=u8+NKme2tYqE=rcdSbzS7t+D7Dp+M=Oqw@mail.gmail.com>

Don't hate the player, hate the game.

Suggestions for alternatives to the game are welcome. Saying "omg so
fucked" is basically a useless culturally biased statement.

I also don't like the attitude of "shiny shiny stuff" being just that. Most
of our shiny stuff we get for good reason. It's easy to forget that you
don't need much, but even easier to forget why we do have these things.
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From europus at gmail.com  Tue Oct 27 17:31:14 2015
From: europus at gmail.com (Ulex Europae)
Date: Tue, 27 Oct 2015 20:31:14 -0400
Subject: list sans smtp spillage
In-Reply-To: <CAGRDzQVXjKaiLkwytjmxWVFMwj135JZOWak6a9HCfbYb5LK2=Q@mail.g
 mail.com>
References: <CAJVRA1Qsx_vpf8ppOActj0OHhaMnK-bHOJc2ycnxUc365F0iag@mail.gmail.com>
 <op.x6yt821ebgbjo9@laptop>
 <CAKtE3zd0HXwNYf0O8ABoz31=jekM=QcghC0YaOBVO6VDkHsrFA@mail.gmail.com>
 <20151023162045.1F3C3C00014@frontend1.nyi.internal>
 <562AF01A.70003@riseup.net>
 <CAGRDzQVgkpg=Qo2z-zP+ojiJJes006PK3VTCX2YZDNksDp6C-A@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAKtE3zdVzgAvrdQAWqae_i-4UR-RV3xkEiEHOMz_-kixngrEkA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAGRDzQXhygHgTEymXUhHHS6OpWYg3M0=i6Q0Gpaa1rJzv2L3eA@mail.gmail.com>
 <562BDC2A.8030001@riseup.net> <562CEA30.5000200@pilobilus.net>
 <562CF602.8000605@riseup.net> <562CFC35.70605@pilobilus.net>
 <562D01A3.2080802@riseup.net> <562D1394.2010700@pilobilus.net>
 <CAOsGNSSPd-QiC1EEB0Hc+NHxL1TSjTz6esbcMKknuR4e9OfF-Q@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAGRDzQUZnX7wMdEEczSC8c=MFFGP8cjyQWe-m2WqhOzHZx53Kw@mail.gmail.com>
 <562f66f3.878b420a.29c82.0614@mx.google.com>
 <CAGRDzQVXjKaiLkwytjmxWVFMwj135JZOWak6a9HCfbYb5LK2=Q@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <5630b15d.03a7440a.a3631.fffffb56@mx.google.com>

At 08:44 AM 10/27/2015, Cari Machet wrote:

>I dont know-know but test it all out irl ask someone in love with 
>you if you can fuck them ...watch the facial expression

That seems pointless, BTDT a few times and had the same said to me
more times than that. What followed after was, a pleasure.

>On Oct 27, 2015 12:06 PM, "Ulex Europae" 
><<mailto:europus at gmail.com>europus at gmail.com> wrote:
>
>Word meanings change over time. To not acknowledge and take this
>into consideration reveals an agenda.

A religious agenda, most probably. Mainstream religions these days
have odd ideas about women and the sex act. They should advance their
theologies because it's the 21st century now, not the Dark Ages (which
xtianity single-handedly caused (for western civilization), btw).

--
"Studies have found that people who use profanity are more intelligent
than the rest of you motherfuckers." -- some Facebook meme






From grarpamp at gmail.com  Tue Oct 27 19:03:32 2015
From: grarpamp at gmail.com (grarpamp)
Date: Tue, 27 Oct 2015 22:03:32 -0400
Subject: Fwd: [Cryptography] EFF press release: Wednesday Hearing in NSA
 Spying Case
In-Reply-To: <201510270636.t9R6aH0a022036@new.toad.com>
References: <201510270636.t9R6aH0a022036@new.toad.com>
Message-ID: <CAD2Ti2-17N_V1vYyHMWcqWxoUTFqT2UihF_C-PxnH8XytjC+pw@mail.gmail.com>

---------- Forwarded message ----------
From: John Gilmore <gnu at toad.com>
Date: Tue, Oct 27, 2015 at 2:36 AM
Subject: [Cryptography] EFF press release: Wednesday Hearing in NSA Spying Case
To: cryptography at metzdowd.com, gnu at toad.com


[The public is invited to watch justice be done or undone.  Remember
 our old cypherpunk dress-up days in the Bernstein case?  The judges
 will notice if a polite, interested crowd shows up, and will probably
 pay more attention.  --gnu]


From grarpamp at gmail.com  Tue Oct 27 19:15:00 2015
From: grarpamp at gmail.com (grarpamp)
Date: Tue, 27 Oct 2015 22:15:00 -0400
Subject: US Senate Passes the Cybersecurity Information Sharing Act 74-21
Message-ID: <CAD2Ti29+=6aSoAU7oEebAXN3Re2EppPy27g+A00mfJQqi5f2tA@mail.gmail.com>

The U.S. Senate voted 74-21 in favor of CISA, a controversial
cybersecurity bill. All five amendments submitted in an attempt to
bolster privacy failed to pass. From The Guardian's coverage: Try
asking the bill’s sponsors how the bill will prevent cyberattacks or
force companies and governments to improve their defenses. They can’t
answer. They will use buzzwords like “info-sharing” yet will
conveniently ignore the fact that companies and the government can
already share information with each other as is. There were barely any
actual cybersecurity experts who were for the bill. A large group of
respected computer scientists and engineers were against it. So were
cyberlaw professors. Civil liberties groups uniformly opposed (and
were appalled by) the bill. So did consumer groups. So did the vast
majority of giant tech companies. Yet it still sailed through the
Senate, mostly because lawmakers - many of whom can barely operate
their own email - know hardly anything about the technology that
they’re crafting legislation about.

In other words, you're all fucked again... us 10, you ZERO, hahaha!

http://www.dailydot.com/politics/cisa-senate-passage-cybersecurity-information-sharing-act-congress/
http://www.dailykos.com/story/2015/10/27/1440874/-Senate-Shoots-Down-Four-Amendments-to-Mitigate-CISA-s-Flaws
http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2015/oct/27/senate-ignorant-of-cyber-security-just-passed-cisa-bill-anyway
https://cyberlaw.stanford.edu/blog/2015/04/technologists-oppose-cisainformation-sharing-bills
https://www.elon.edu/e-net/Article/122816?cmsapifragment=1283
https://www.aclu.org/broad-coalition-opposes-cybersecurity-information-sharing-act-2014
https://cdt.org/insight/consumer-advocates-letter-to-senate-on-cybersecurity-information-sharing-act/
http://money.cnn.com/2015/10/26/technology/cisa-cybersecurity-bill-senate/




From grarpamp at gmail.com  Tue Oct 27 19:18:06 2015
From: grarpamp at gmail.com (grarpamp)
Date: Tue, 27 Oct 2015 22:18:06 -0400
Subject: Fwd: [Cryptography] WhatApp metadata broken; on deck: voice encryption
In-Reply-To: <E1Zr5I6-0004EW-4v@elasmtp-banded.atl.sa.earthlink.net>
References: <E1Zr5I6-0004EW-4v@elasmtp-banded.atl.sa.earthlink.net>
Message-ID: <CAD2Ti2-Cf8mR0D7E5VYUqf=AyyVq5tonx7cjm6nR618E=dU9Xw@mail.gmail.com>

---------- Forwarded message ----------
Date: Tue, Oct 27, 2015 at 10:30 AM
Subject: [Cryptography] WhatApp metadata broken; on deck: voice encryption

FYI -- The authors seem very optimistic about capturing the voice
encryption session keys soon.

WhatsApp network forensics: Decrypting and understanding the WhatsApp
call signaling messages

http://www.fit.vutbr.cz/research/pubs/index.php?file=%2Fpub%2F10979%2FWhatsApp.pdf&id=10979

we were able to acquire the following artifacts from the network traffic:
* WhatsApp phone numbers.
* WhatsApp phone call establishment metadata and datetime stamps.
* WhatsApp phone call termination metadata and datetime stamps.
* WhatsApp phone call duration metadata and datetime stamps.
* WhatsApp's phone call voice codec (Opus).
* WhatsApp's relay server IP addresses used during the calls.




From shelley at misanthropia.org  Wed Oct 28 00:46:41 2015
From: shelley at misanthropia.org (Shelley)
Date: Wed, 28 Oct 2015 00:46:41 -0700
Subject: mailing list etiquette violators list
In-Reply-To: <56307A29.9010909@riseup.net>
References: <20151025103124.GW7122@ctrlc.hu> <56307165.2080704@riseup.net>
 <56307A29.9010909@riseup.net>
Message-ID: <20151028074625.D880AC0001A@frontend1.nyi.internal>

On October 28, 2015 12:39:36 AM Mirimir <mirimir at riseup.net> wrote:
>
> I've seen no evidence of list filtering on <cypherpunks at cpunks.org>.
>
> <SNIP>

Same.  There has been plenty of noise and outright stupidity at times (far 
worse than anything of recent weeks), and I have never known RSW to censor 
or filter the list.

I'd hope you'd elect to stay, odinn.  Your voice has always been welcome 
here.  Who cares about some random, anonymous coward's pastebin list?

Jmho.

-Shelley





From juan.g71 at gmail.com  Tue Oct 27 20:59:01 2015
From: juan.g71 at gmail.com (Juan)
Date: Wed, 28 Oct 2015 00:59:01 -0300
Subject: US Senate Passes the Cybersecurity Information Sharing Act 74-21
In-Reply-To: <CAD2Ti29+=6aSoAU7oEebAXN3Re2EppPy27g+A00mfJQqi5f2tA@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAD2Ti29+=6aSoAU7oEebAXN3Re2EppPy27g+A00mfJQqi5f2tA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <56304681.4d808c0a.2cbac.ffffe3c9@mx.google.com>

On Tue, 27 Oct 2015 22:15:00 -0400
grarpamp <grarpamp at gmail.com> wrote:

> 
> In other words, you're all fucked again... us 10, you ZERO, hahaha!

	exactly right

> lawmakers - many of whom can barely operate  their own email 

	really? and yet they are way more efficient than all hackers
	when it comes to use 'the net' to serve their ends.





From mirimir at riseup.net  Wed Oct 28 00:32:57 2015
From: mirimir at riseup.net (Mirimir)
Date: Wed, 28 Oct 2015 01:32:57 -0600
Subject: mailing list etiquette violators list
In-Reply-To: <56307165.2080704@riseup.net>
References: <20151025103124.GW7122@ctrlc.hu> <56307165.2080704@riseup.net>
Message-ID: <56307A29.9010909@riseup.net>

On 10/28/2015 12:55 AM, odinn wrote:
> I find it interesting that this "list filtering" is going on at the
> same time that the censorship was just initiated in bitcoin-dev (where
> emerging mods are making similar claims, but not allowing anyone to
> contest the issue; all dissenting replies to the "new policy" go into
> a round file or are shunted off to another list).

I've seen no evidence of list filtering on <cypherpunks at cpunks.org>.

<SNIP>

> It would not surprise me at all if this e-mail I am writing right now
> never is seen by the cypherpunks list at all (or at least, if those
> persons who claim to be lords of netiquette, never see it because they
> have already decided that I and others should be filtered out).  After
> all, my name does appear on the "contributurs-to-be-filtered."

Anyone can ignore email from anyone. You can't force people to read, or
even see, your stuff.

> I will soon be removing myself from cypherpunks and bitcoin-dev.  I am
> getting tired of being on lists that function more like ggautoblocker
> & blocktogether than a forum for freedom of expression.

Maybe relax a little?

<SNIP>




From zen at freedbms.net  Tue Oct 27 19:41:33 2015
From: zen at freedbms.net (Zenaan Harkness)
Date: Wed, 28 Oct 2015 02:41:33 +0000
Subject: US Senate Passes the Cybersecurity Information Sharing Act 74-21
In-Reply-To: <CAD2Ti29+=6aSoAU7oEebAXN3Re2EppPy27g+A00mfJQqi5f2tA@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAD2Ti29+=6aSoAU7oEebAXN3Re2EppPy27g+A00mfJQqi5f2tA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAOsGNSRbdgbwUEpr-D-uzJZB5jc+ak6kTbGMyahkN7+E9y826g@mail.gmail.com>

On 10/28/15, grarpamp <grarpamp at gmail.com> wrote:
> The U.S. Senate voted 74-21 in favor of CISA, a controversial
...
> In other words, you're all fucked again... us 10, you ZERO, hahaha!

That's an aweful lot of conspiracy going on, against the people. That
government continues to conspire against its own people, over and
over, and mostly against most of the rest of the world. The USA
government is completely out of control (of the people). It is
completely controlled by the military industrial companies.

Follow the money and the blackmail.




From grarpamp at gmail.com  Wed Oct 28 00:45:53 2015
From: grarpamp at gmail.com (grarpamp)
Date: Wed, 28 Oct 2015 03:45:53 -0400
Subject: The $24B Secret Telco Data Biz
Message-ID: <CAD2Ti29_nU1mZrpThag6bq55C=c+HD+N4oE8sJjsnWY0bLBK_g@mail.gmail.com>

http://adage.com/article/datadriven-marketing/24-billion-data-business-telcos-discuss/301058/
SAP's Consumer Insight 365 ingests regularly updated data representing
as many as 300 cellphone events per day for each of the 20 million to
25 million mobile subscribers. SAP won't disclose the carriers
providing this data. It "tells you where your consumers are coming
from, because obviously the mobile operator knows their home
location,"

Us... 10 more, you... fuct.




From juan.g71 at gmail.com  Wed Oct 28 01:38:56 2015
From: juan.g71 at gmail.com (Juan)
Date: Wed, 28 Oct 2015 05:38:56 -0300
Subject: strange coincidences - largest ever drugs bust at Rafik Hariri
 International Airport
In-Reply-To: <CAOsGNSRVLrsXXypaf5hgxyD4ZPE=ARbTvsW9kpyJbabaACmYxQ@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAOsGNSRVLrsXXypaf5hgxyD4ZPE=ARbTvsW9kpyJbabaACmYxQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <5630881e.04918c0a.bba05.1dd5@mx.google.com>

On Wed, 28 Oct 2015 08:15:38 +0000
Zenaan Harkness <zen at freedbms.net> wrote:

> Short and sweet with plenty of sarcasm:
> 
> http://russia-insider.com/en/saudi-prince-arrested-2-tons-delicious-amphetamines-destined-friendly-syrian-freedom-fighters
> 
> The real question, should all drugs be legalised, would that help or
> hinder the Russian Syrian Iranian effort?



	"The question still remains, how comes such a thing as "a
	nation" to exist? How do millions of men, scattered over an
	extensive territory, each gifted by nature with individual
	freedom; required by the law of nature to call no man, or body
	of men, his masters; authorized by that law to seek his own
	happiness in his own way, to do what he will with himself and
	his property, so long as he does not trespass upon the equal
	liberty of others; authorized also, by that law, to defend his
	own rights, and redress his own wrongs; and to go to the
	assistance and defence of any [*10] of his fellow men who may
	be suffering any kind of injustice --- how do millions of such
	men come to be a nation, in the first place? How is it that
	each of them comes to be stripped of his natural, God-given
	rights, and to be incorporated, compressed, compacted, and
	consolidated into a mass with other men, whom he never saw;
	with whom he has no contract; and towards many of whom he has
	no sentiments but fear, hatred, or contempt? How does he become
	subjected to the control of men like himself, who, by nature,
	had no authority over him; but who command him to do this, and
	forbid him to do that, as if they were his sovereigns, and he
	their subject; and as if their wills and their interests were
	the only standards of his duties and his rights; and who compel
	him to submission under peril of confiscation, imprisonment,
	and death?

	Clearly all this is the work of force, or fraud, or both." 


	L. Spooner - No Treason. 















From odinn.cyberguerrilla at riseup.net  Tue Oct 27 23:55:33 2015
From: odinn.cyberguerrilla at riseup.net (odinn)
Date: Wed, 28 Oct 2015 06:55:33 +0000
Subject: mailing list etiquette violators list
In-Reply-To: <20151025103124.GW7122@ctrlc.hu>
References: <20151025103124.GW7122@ctrlc.hu>
Message-ID: <56307165.2080704@riseup.net>

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA512

I find it interesting that this "list filtering" is going on at the
same time that the censorship was just initiated in bitcoin-dev (where
emerging mods are making similar claims, but not allowing anyone to
contest the issue; all dissenting replies to the "new policy" go into
a round file or are shunted off to another list).

What we are seeing is the collective dissolving of backbone of online
societies; it may be subconscious or it may even be intentional ~ in
the end, it doesn't matter:  It's happening.

It would not surprise me at all if this e-mail I am writing right now
never is seen by the cypherpunks list at all (or at least, if those
persons who claim to be lords of netiquette, never see it because they
have already decided that I and others should be filtered out).  After
all, my name does appear on the "contributurs-to-be-filtered."

I will soon be removing myself from cypherpunks and bitcoin-dev.  I am
getting tired of being on lists that function more like ggautoblocker
& blocktogether than a forum for freedom of expression.

A reminder, I suppose, is in order, that unless we have fora that
cannot be censored or (easily) filtered (diaspora may be a good
example, and possibly zeronet) then we cannot express ourselves
freely, and the extent of our ideas (and by extension, ourselves)
cannot be said to be free at any level, or in any way, shape, or form.

Free thought requires free expression.

Goodbye.

- - Odinn

stef:
> after the much successful list of coderman regarding
> contributors-to-be- filtered, allow me to present you the list of
> the most - netiquette-wise - unrespectful contributors to this
> list:
> 
> (you can find the explanation of each lint in the source code
> here: https://gist.github.com/stef/f35c1339d7013f7966b8)
> 
> 405  juan.g71 at gmail.com nlbloat              279 70% quotebloat
> 75 18% quotedsig            18 4% longlines            16 4% 
> oneliner             8 2% toppost              7 1% nosubject
> 1 0% fullquote            1 0% 287  cathalgarvey at cathalgarvey.me 
> toppost              128 67% longsig              49 25% quotebloat
> 48 25% longlines            42 22% quotedsig            18 9% 
> nlbloat              1 0% oneliner             1 0% 193
> grarpamp at gmail.com longlines            132 23% nlbloat
> 26 4% oneliner             18 3% quotebloat           11 1% toppost
> 4 0% fullquote            2 0% 154  jya at pipeline.com toppost
> 84 35% longlines            34 14% quotebloat           17 7% 
> nlbloat              14 5% bigmedia             2 0% oneliner
> 2 0% quotedsig            1 0% 151  Rayzer at riseup.net nlbloat
> 54 28% quotebloat           33 17% toppost              28 14% 
> longlines            26 13% quotedsig            6 3% oneliner
> 2 1% bigmedia             1 0% longsig              1 0% 104
> jdb10987 at yahoo.com longlines            67 91% nlbloat
> 22 30% quotebloat           5 6% oneliner             5 6% toppost
> 3 4% fullquote            2 2% 96   coderman at gmail.com longlines
> 67 26% toppost              13 5% oneliner             5 1% nlbloat
> 3 1% quotebloat           3 1% bigmedia             2 0% fullquote
> 1 0% SHOUTS               1 0% nosubject            1 0% 89
> tpb-crypto at laposte.net longlines            29 90% nlbloat
> 24 75% quotebloat           22 68% oneliner             12 37% 
> toppost              1 3% quotedsig            1 3% 82
> jamesdbell8 at yahoo.com longlines            46 92% toppost
> 12 24% fullquote            10 20% quotebloat           7 14% 
> nlbloat              5 10% longsig              1 2% quotedsig
> 1 2% 81   eugen at leitl.org longlines            49 59% longsig
> 15 18% nlbloat              8 9% oneliner             5 6% 
> quotebloat           2 2% fullquote            1 1% toppost
> 1 1% 79   shelley at misanthropia.org quotebloat           31 31% 
> nlbloat              22 22% toppost              18 18% longlines
> 7 7% oneliner             1 1% 78   themikebest at gmail.com toppost
> 31 43% quotebloat           24 33% longlines            12 16% 
> nlbloat              7 9% bigmedia             2 2% oneliner
> 1 1% SHOUTS               1 1% 72   jamesdbell9 at yahoo.com longlines
> 54 96% toppost              6 10% quotebloat           4 7% 
> fullquote            4 7% nlbloat              3 5% longsig
> 1 1% 70   mirimir at riseup.net quotebloat           46 39% nlbloat
> 14 11% longlines            7 5% quotedsig            3 2% 67
> guninski at guninski.com longlines            35 18% quotebloat
> 10 5% nlbloat              7 3% toppost              6 3% quotedsig
> 6 3% longsig              1 0% oneliner             1 0% fullquote
> 1 0% 58   rysiek at hackerspace.pl longlines            28 4% 
> quotebloat           23 4% longsig              3 0% bigmedia
> 2 0% toppost              2 0% 55   zen at freedbms.net longlines
> 28 17% quotebloat           18 11% toppost              6 3% 
> nlbloat              2 1% oneliner             1 0% 50
> gwen at cypherpunks.to longsig              25 100% toppost
> 12 48% bigmedia             9 36% longlines            3 12% 
> quotebloat           1 4% 45   oshwm at openmailbox.org toppost
> 15 38% quotebloat           12 30% longlines            11 28% 
> nlbloat              4 10% quotedsig            2 5% oneliner
> 1 2% 44   mixmaster at remailer.privacy.at longlines            22
> 57% nlbloat              13 34% oneliner             7 18% 
> quotebloat           1 2% toppost              1 2% 34
> list at sysfu.com longlines            23 23% nlbloat              3
> 3% quotebloat           3 3% bigmedia             2 2% oneliner
> 2 2% toppost              1 1% 29   komachi at openmailbox.org 
> longlines            11 34% toppost              10 31% quotebloat
> 4 12% longsig              2 6% quotedsig            2 6% 28
> sdw at lig.net longlines            20 90% quotebloat           3 13% 
> longsig              2 9% toppost              2 9% nlbloat
> 1 4% 27   tim at diffalt.com toppost              17 53% quotebloat
> 9 28% longlines            1 3% 26   drwho at virtadpt.net longlines
> 20 20% longsig              6 6% 25   shelley at misanthropia.info 
> longlines            9 36% quotebloat           8 32% nlbloat
> 6 24% toppost              1 4% quotedsig            1 4% 25
> tigrutigru at gmail.com longlines            7 100% quotebloat
> 6 85% toppost              5 71% quotedsig            5 71% nlbloat
> 2 28% 24   hettinga at gmail.com longlines            11 34% nlbloat
> 6 18% quotebloat           3 9% toppost              2 6% oneliner
> 1 3% quotedsig            1 3% 22   griffin at cryptolab.net longlines
> 7 18% toppost              7 18% quotebloat           5 13% longsig
> 3 8% 21   carimachet at gmail.com longsig              12 85% 
> longlines            6 42% toppost              2 14% quotebloat
> 1 7% 21   odinn.cyberguerrilla at riseup.net longlines            13
> 20% quotebloat           5 7% toppost              3 4% 19
> bluelotus at openmailbox.org longlines            10 90% nlbloat
> 4 36% oneliner             4 36% toppost              1 9% 18
> electromagnetize at gmail.com toppost              8 16% longlines
> 6 12% quotebloat           2 4% bigmedia             1 2% nlbloat
> 1 2% 18   badbiosvictim at ruggedinbox.com longlines            6
> 100% toppost              5 83% quotebloat           4 66% nlbloat
> 2 33% oneliner             1 16% 18   dal at riseup.net toppost
> 10 40% longlines            5 20% quotebloat           3 12% 18
> ryacko at gmail.com quotebloat           6 20% toppost              5
> 17% nlbloat              3 10% oneliner             2 6% longlines
> 2 6% 17   wirelesswarrior at safe-mail.net longlines            15
> 88% toppost              2 11% 16   cyberkiller8 at gmail.com longsig
> 16 100% 15   afalex169 at gmail.com quotebloat           4 13% 
> oneliner             4 13% toppost              4 13% longlines
> 2 6% nlbloat              1 3% 14   tbiehn at gmail.com toppost
> 8 66% quotebloat           3 25% longsig              2 16% 
> longlines            1 8% 14   gfoster at entersection.org longlines
> 14 58% 14   oottela at cs.helsinki.fi toppost              11 64% 
> longlines            2 11% quotebloat           1 5% 12
> contact at subrosa.io longlines            4 100% nlbloat
> 2 50% quotebloat           2 50% oneliner             2 50% toppost
> 2 50% 12   alfiej at fastmail.fm longlines            7 13% toppost
> 3 5% quotebloat           2 3% 12   loki at obscura.com toppost
> 4 100% quotebloat           3 75% longlines            3 75% 
> quotedsig            2 50% 11   dan at geer.org nlbloat              6
> 13% longlines            5 11% 11   bizdevcon at icloud.com longlines
> 5 83% toppost              3 50% nlbloat              2 33% 
> quotebloat           1 16% 11   s at ctrlc.hu longlines            5
> 10% quotebloat           2 4% toppost              2 4% nlbloat
> 1 2% longsig              1 2% 10   john at johnlgrubbs.net longlines
> 3 75% toppost              3 75% quotebloat           2 50% nlbloat
> 1 25% oneliner             1 25% 9    vfwavrwava at yandex.com 
> longlines            4 66% htmlonly             2 33% quotebloat
> 1 16% nosubject            1 16% toppost              1 16% 9
> gutemhc at gmail.com longlines            6 100% quotebloat
> 1 16% oneliner             1 16% toppost              1 16% 8
> jahlove at riseup.net toppost              3 75% quotebloat
> 2 50% longlines            2 50% nlbloat              1 25% 8
> tedks at riseup.net toppost              5 27% quotebloat           2
> 11% quotedsig            1 5% 8    softservant at gmail.com toppost
> 6 31% nlbloat              1 5% quotebloat           1 5% 8
> rich at openwatch.net longlines            7 36% toppost
> 1 5% 8    lists at silent1.net quotebloat           2 40% toppost
> 2 40% fullquote            2 40% nlbloat              1 20% 
> oneliner             1 20% 7    blibbet at gmail.com longlines
> 6 26% nlbloat              1 4% 7    jwcase at gmail.com nlbloat
> 2 100% quotebloat           2 100% toppost              2 100% 
> longlines            1 50% 7    chgans at gna.org quotebloat
> 4 50% nlbloat              2 25% longlines            1 12% 7
> mrbits.dcf at gmail.com longlines            7 100% 7
> europus at gmail.com nlbloat              4 28% quotebloat           1
> 7% longlines            1 7% toppost              1 7% 7
> wahspilihp at gmail.com longlines            4 100% nlbloat
> 2 50% quotebloat           1 25% 6    z9wahqvh at gmail.com toppost
> 4 100% quotebloat           2 50% 6
> cypherpunks at cheiraminhavirilha.com quotebloat           3 33% 
> longlines            2 22% nlbloat              1 11% 6
> nymble at gmail.com nlbloat              2 100% longlines            2
> 100% quotebloat           1 50% toppost              1 50% 6
> jamesd at echeque.com quotebloat           3 4% nlbloat              2
> 2% oneliner             1 1% 6    beam at rayservers.net nlbloat
> 2 40% quotebloat           2 40% toppost              2 40% 6
> wb8foz at nrk.com nlbloat              4 57% oneliner             1
> 14% longlines            1 14% 6    snehan.kekre612 at protonmail.ch 
> htmlonly             5 83% longlines            1 16% 6
> kurt.buff at gmail.com toppost              3 50% quotebloat
> 2 33% longlines            1 16% 6    jerry at jerryrw.com longlines
> 4 100% nlbloat              2 50% 6    nickeconopouly at gmail.com 
> quotebloat           3 50% nlbloat              3 50% 5
> seanl at literati.org quotebloat           2 15% toppost
> 2 15% longlines            1 7% 5    bbrewer at littledystopia.net 
> nlbloat              1 33% quotebloat           1 33% longlines
> 1 33% toppost              1 33% quotedsig            1 33% 5
> joe_wang at yahoo.com longlines            2 100% quotebloat
> 1 50% toppost              1 50% fullquote            1 50% 5
> pgut001 at cs.auckland.ac.nz nlbloat              3 12% longlines
> 2 8% 5    cypher at cpunk.us nlbloat              2 11% quotebloat
> 2 11% longlines            1 5% 5    nathan at squimp.com quotebloat
> 2 20% toppost              2 20% longlines            1 10% 5
> jwelicker at gmail.com quotebloat           2 100% toppost
> 2 100% nlbloat              1 50% 5    measl at mfn.org longsig
> 5 100% 5    bizdevcon at protonmail.ch longlines            3 75% 
> fullquote            1 25% toppost              1 25% 5
> 4chaos.onelove at gmail.com longlines            4 80% toppost
> 1 20% 5    aestetix at aestetix.com quotebloat           2 40% toppost
> 2 40% nlbloat              1 20% 5    mike at gogulski.com toppost
> 3 50% nlbloat              1 16% quotebloat           1 16% 5
> yassww at cock.li quotebloat           2 100% toppost              2
> 100% quotedsig            1 50% 4    drjfeinstein at mail.com nlbloat
> 1 33% longlines            1 33% toppost              1 33% 
> htmlonly             1 33% 4    lnemitoff at foregroundsecurity.com 
> nlbloat              1 100% quotebloat           1 100% oneliner
> 1 100% toppost              1 100% 4    matej.kovacic at owca.info 
> longlines            3 23% toppost              1 7% 4
> thetransintransgenic at gmail.com toppost              2 33% 
> quotebloat           1 16% longlines            1 16% 4
> wilder at trip.sk quotebloat           1 33% longlines            1
> 33% toppost              1 33% quotedsig            1 33% 4
> nelson_mikel at yahoo.com nlbloat              2 66% longlines
> 2 66% 4    comzeradd at fsfe.org longlines            2 28% nlbloat
> 1 14% quotebloat           1 14% 4    rtomek at ceti.pl longsig
> 4 80% 4    kyboren at riseup.net quotebloat           2 33% longlines
> 1 16% toppost              1 16% 4    hozer at hozed.org longsig
> 2 22% longlines            2 22% 3    kevinsisco61784 at gmail.com 
> quotebloat           1 100% longsig              1 100% quotedsig
> 1 100% 3    ei8fdb at ei8fdb.org nlbloat              1 100% longlines
> 1 100% toppost              1 100% 3    M373 at riseup.net toppost
> 3 75% 3    EricHernandez at openmailbox.org quotebloat           1
> 100% longlines            1 100% toppost              1 100% 3
> politynews at gmx.com longlines            3 37% 3
> mrjones2020 at gmail.com toppost              2 66% quotebloat
> 1 33% 3    jtmurphy at cmu.edu quotebloat           2 50% longsig
> 1 25% 3    k at friendlygruppen.se quotebloat           1 100% 
> longlines            1 100% toppost              1 100% 3
> archivists at protonmail.ch nlbloat              1 100% oneliner
> 1 100% longlines            1 100% 3    goran at gothic.com.au nlbloat
> 1 33% longlines            1 33% toppost              1 33% 3
> boyscity at gmail.com nlbloat              1 100% quotebloat
> 1 100% toppost              1 100% 3
> steve at secretvolcanobase.org longlines            3 100% 3
> patrick.c.connolly at gmail.com quotebloat           1 100% longlines
> 1 100% toppost              1 100% 3    davidroman96 at gmail.com 
> nlbloat              1 16% quotebloat           1 16% toppost
> 1 16% 3    StealthMonger at nym.mixmin.net longsig              2 66% 
> longlines            1 33% 3    cpunks at martin-studio.com toppost
> 2 100% quotebloat           1 50% 3    gizmoguy1 at gmail.com nlbloat
> 1 33% quotebloat           1 33% toppost              1 33% 3
> iam at kjro.se quotebloat           1 50% toppost              1 50% 
> quotedsig            1 50% 3    eric at konklone.com longlines
> 2 33% longsig              1 16% 3    yan at mit.edu quotebloat
> 1 100% toppost              1 100% quotedsig            1 100% 3
> me at staticsafe.ca quotedsig            2 50% longlines            1
> 25% 3    colinmahns at riseup.net quotebloat           1 100% 
> longlines            1 100% toppost              1 100% 3
> admin at pilobilus.net nlbloat              1 1% oneliner
> 1 1% longlines            1 1% 3    moritz at headstrong.de toppost
> 2 28% quotebloat           1 14% 3    gbnewby at pglaf.org quotebloat
> 1 50% toppost              1 50% quotedsig            1 50% 3
> cryptomars at cryptoparty.fr quotebloat           2 33% longlines
> 1 16% 3    mezger.benjamin at gmail.com longlines            2 50% 
> longsig              1 25% 3    william at tuffbizz.com quotebloat
> 1 50% toppost              1 50% quotedsig            1 50% 3
> fredconcklin at gmail.com nlbloat              1 100% quotebloat
> 1 100% toppost              1 100% 2    read at ch1p.com toppost
> 2 100% 2    digitalfolklore at protonmail.ch htmlonly             2
> 100% 2    peter at m-o-o-t.org quotebloat           1 16% nlbloat
> 1 16% 2    jsalvia at gmail.com toppost              1 100% quotebloat
> 1 100% 2    ygwald at brandeis.edu quotebloat           2 25% 2
> coruus at gmail.com toppost              1 100% quotebloat           1
> 100% 2    jason.mcvetta at gmail.com toppost              1 16% 
> quotebloat           1 16% 2    georgemaschke at posteo.de longlines
> 2 66% 2    lists at cooperq.com toppost              1 50% quotebloat
> 1 50% 2    scott at sbce.org longlines            2 100% 2
> antitree at gmail.com toppost              1 100% quotebloat
> 1 100% 2    damico at dcon.com.br toppost              1 25% longlines
> 1 25% 2    jd.cypherpunks at gmail.com nlbloat              1 50% 
> longlines            1 50% 2    mike at confidantmail.org toppost
> 1 14% quotebloat           1 14% 2    pranesh at cis-india.org longsig
> 1 100% longlines            1 100% 2
> rodionraskolnikov at riseup.net toppost              1 100% longlines
> 1 100% 2    otr at riseup.net toppost              1 100% longlines
> 1 100% 2    jon at callas.org nlbloat              1 100% longlines
> 1 100% 2    anthony at cajuntechie.org toppost              1 100% 
> quotebloat           1 100% 2
> cindy.baginski at piratenpartei-nms.de quotebloat           1 100% 
> longlines            1 100% 2    lblissett at paranoici.org quotebloat
> 1 33% longlines            1 33% 2    thomas.fischermann at zeit.de 
> quotebloat           1 100% nlbloat              1 100% 2
> kossy at riseup.net oneliner             1 100% nlbloat              1
> 100% 2    parker at eff.org toppost              1 100% longsig
> 1 100% 2    itg at itechgeek.com toppost              1 100% longlines
> 1 100% 2    klokanek at eldar.cz toppost              1 100% longsig
> 1 100% 2    tom at vondein.org toppost              1 7% nlbloat
> 1 7% 2    mark00thomas at gmail.com toppost              1 100% 
> longlines            1 100% 2    andreas at junius.info toppost
> 1 50% nlbloat              1 50% 2    yearofthemonkey at riseup.net 
> longlines            2 100% 2    lists at infosecurity.ch toppost
> 1 25% longlines            1 25% 2    groundhog593 at riseup.net 
> toppost              1 20% longlines            1 20% 2
> martin.rublik at gmail.com longlines            2 100% 2
> fnpaladini at gmail.com toppost              1 100% longsig
> 1 100% 2    madduck at madduck.net longsig              2 100% 2
> yumkam at gmail.com longlines            2 50% 2
> schear.steve at gmail.com toppost              1 25% quotebloat
> 1 25% 1    bizdevcon at protonmail.com longlines            1 100% 1
> pc at loom.cc nlbloat              1 20% 1    danstaples at disman.tl 
> toppost              1 100% 1    guido at witmond.nl longlines
> 1 16% 1    skquinn at rushpost.com longsig              1 5% 1
> wilfred at vt.edu toppost              1 33% 1    tommy at collison.ie 
> toppost              1 50% 1    hannes at mehnert.org longlines
> 1 14% 1    dstainton415 at gmail.com longlines            1 100% 1
> jacob at appelbaum.net longlines            1 50% 1
> plaunit61398 at gmail.com toppost              1 100% 1
> fe.peressim at gmail.com longlines            1 100% 1
> listes at sploing.be longlines            1 100% 1
> c4p0 at cyberguerrilla.org toppost              1 100% 1
> reed at unsafeword.org toppost              1 100% 1
> adam at cypherspace.org toppost              1 50% 1    ban at unseen.is 
> longlines            1 100% 1    vbotka at gmail.com longlines
> 1 100% 1    demonfighter at gmail.com oneliner             1 7% 1
> jens at kubieziel.de longlines            1 100% 1
> katana at riseup.net longlines            1 33% 1
> albill at openbuddha.com nlbloat              1 50% 1
> erehwon at c4i.org longlines            1 100% 1
> me at brendafernandez.com longlines            1 100% 1
> und3rt4k3r at riseup.net longlines            1 100% 1
> ryan.pear at ownbay.net longlines            1 50% 1
> rayzer at riseup.net longlines            1 100% 1
> shidash at shidash.com longlines            1 100% 1
> 1337whynot at safe-mail.net longlines            1 100% 1
> meandmine at gmx.com quotebloat           1 100% 1    sean at alexan.org 
> quotebloat           1 100% 1    nicolasbourbaki at riseup.net toppost
> 1 16% 1    JS733NknRj6J at protonmail.com longlines            1 100% 
> 1    rdohm321 at gmail.com toppost              1 100% 1
> 3ndless at riseup.net longlines            1 100% 1
> davispuh at gmail.com longlines            1 100% 1
> d0rk at warpmail.net longlines            1 100% 1
> adg at crypto.lo.gy toppost              1 50% 1
> mjones at pencil.allmail.net toppost              1 100% 1
> x50 at fastmail.fm longlines            1 50% 1
> jonas.hedman at fripost.org quotebloat           1 100% 1
> jessetaylor84 at riseup.net bigmedia             1 33% 1
> kanzure at gmail.com longlines            1 100% 1
> yushbhardwaj91 at gmail.com nlbloat              1 100% 1
> tpetru at gmail.com longlines            1 100%
> 
> 

- -- 
http://abis.io ~
"a protocol concept to enable decentralization
and expansion of a giving economy, and a new social good"
https://keybase.io/odinn
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From zen at freedbms.net  Wed Oct 28 01:15:38 2015
From: zen at freedbms.net (Zenaan Harkness)
Date: Wed, 28 Oct 2015 08:15:38 +0000
Subject: strange coincidences - largest ever drugs bust at Rafik Hariri
 International Airport
Message-ID: <CAOsGNSRVLrsXXypaf5hgxyD4ZPE=ARbTvsW9kpyJbabaACmYxQ@mail.gmail.com>

Short and sweet with plenty of sarcasm:

http://russia-insider.com/en/saudi-prince-arrested-2-tons-delicious-amphetamines-destined-friendly-syrian-freedom-fighters

The real question, should all drugs be legalised, would that help or
hinder the Russian Syrian Iranian effort?




From zen at freedbms.net  Wed Oct 28 01:42:57 2015
From: zen at freedbms.net (Zenaan Harkness)
Date: Wed, 28 Oct 2015 08:42:57 +0000
Subject: U.S. Congresswoman: CIA Must Stop Illegal, Counterproductive War to
 Overthrow Assad
Message-ID: <CAOsGNSQBoi9t-peHWxqQ3RDt_CTVG8nDWArkGpYXJbxN+fMsdQ@mail.gmail.com>

U.S. Congresswoman: CIA Must Stop Illegal, Counterproductive War to
Overthrow Assad
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IHkher6ceaA

Rare to hear a USA politician talk in this way. The fact she got such
air time is another indicator that the fascist military regime running
America is having to have a game change.




From zen at freedbms.net  Wed Oct 28 01:53:40 2015
From: zen at freedbms.net (Zenaan Harkness)
Date: Wed, 28 Oct 2015 08:53:40 +0000
Subject: The ENTIRE World (Minus Israel, Obviously) Just Voted to Condemn the
 US Embargo Against Cuba
Message-ID: <CAOsGNSQk_dJsUx5v_dc8OpG2NCguw7ETmHE6rCcZ2-h6Wn4jow@mail.gmail.com>

USA actually considered abstaining for the first time ever.

http://russia-insider.com/en/breaking-entire-un-minus-israel-obviously-just-voted-condemn-us-embargo-against-cuba/ri10770

http://bigstory.ap.org/article/bbf65503c10d47558075e427fac988d4/us-says-it-will-oppose-un-resolution-condemning-cuba
"The General Assembly voted 191-2 to condemn the commercial, economic
and financial embargo against Cuba, the highest number of votes ever
for the measure. Only Israel joined the United States in opposing the
resolution, and when the vote lit up on the screen many diplomats
jumped to their feet in a standing ovation."




From Rayzer at riseup.net  Wed Oct 28 11:19:33 2015
From: Rayzer at riseup.net (Razer)
Date: Wed, 28 Oct 2015 11:19:33 -0700
Subject: mailing list etiquette violators list
In-Reply-To: <56307165.2080704@riseup.net>
References: <20151025103124.GW7122@ctrlc.hu> <56307165.2080704@riseup.net>
Message-ID: <563111B5.3060706@riseup.net>



On 10/27/2015 11:55 PM, odinn wrote:
> What we are seeing is the collective dissolving of backbone of online
> societies; it may be subconscious or it may even be intentional ~ in
> the end, it doesn't matter:  It's happening.

As above (real world) so below (cyber-world)'

Psychopaths with agendas rise to the top of the 'food chain' and destroy
the host society, or at least the element of that society that doesn't
subscribe to that agenda. In political organizing this often happens
when involvement is at a nadir and the psychopaths commandeer the
organization by otherwise legitimate means.

I don't know who the owner of the Cypherpunks list is but I understand
it IS NOT moderated, so anyone who keeps a filter list of people they
consider 'undesirable posters' is free to do so, and keep their fuck
fuck fucking (for those who keep a 'fuck' counter) problem to themselves.

Personally, compared to other lists I'm involved with, I see no
mean-spirited trolling or intentionall disruption of threads here. Just
free form discussion that 'ranges'.

RR

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From Rayzer at riseup.net  Wed Oct 28 11:51:23 2015
From: Rayzer at riseup.net (Razer)
Date: Wed, 28 Oct 2015 11:51:23 -0700
Subject: Shiny stuff and designer societies
In-Reply-To: <CAHWD2rJNTxt2+=0rPkkc+323pTn-njkvJVgUE624LShu2xg1Eg@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAHWD2rJNTxt2+=0rPkkc+323pTn-njkvJVgUE624LShu2xg1Eg@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <5631192B.7060104@riseup.net>



On 10/28/2015 08:08 AM, Lodewijk andré de la porte wrote:

2015-10-27 21:47 GMT+01:00 Shelley <shelley at xxxxxxxx>:
>
>     - Learn how to fix and repurpose things.  Take good care of your
>     things so they last longer.
>
>
> I know how to fix/repurpose most things. Actually fixing things often
> doesn't compare favorably with just buying a new one - time spent at
> 10 euro's per hour makes most repairs very borderline effective.
>  

Truecost one or two dead 24 year old foxconn/Bangladeshi sweatshop
worker's body into that equation when you do that cost comparison. Even
if it doesn't affect you directly now, it will in the future in the form
of terrorism, because terrorist come from societies and cultures being
destroyed, typically in this day and age for someone else's profit.

> Razer mentioned a TV, I don't own one. I have a sizeable monitor. Much
> prettier than most TVs. I might get a projector someday, it's fun to
> watch movies together like that.
>
> Razer also fuzzes about collectivism vs individualism. They used to
> have collectivism in many nations. They all lost. I think a society
> design that involves individual incentives (the best of capitalism;
> advanced finance, legal persons, markets, competition), global
> optimization (the best of communism; managed competition, fine tuned
> production, >designed markets<), and collective ambition (the best of
> government/academia; being able to strife together and make deep, long
> term investments) would be ideal.
>

The Zapatistas are a collectivist society and they've far from 'lost'.
Other example must exist but they're not coming to mind, and certainly
'scalability' IS a problem. The homeless in the US spontaneously form
self-supporting collectives that are also highly individualistic. The
only real social structures are 'fuzzy'. The quest for purity, of
thought, political structure, culture, drug, whatever, is a disease. 
But my basic stand is, by it's very design, Capitalism is murderous, and
predatory. There is no such thing as 'kinder and gentler' capitalism and
there never will be.

RR


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From guninski at guninski.com  Wed Oct 28 02:59:06 2015
From: guninski at guninski.com (Georgi Guninski)
Date: Wed, 28 Oct 2015 11:59:06 +0200
Subject: Ethereum and Auger
In-Reply-To: <1836992162.2024877.1445973553623.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com>
References: <20151024115306.GA2820@sivokote.iziade.m$>
 <1836992162.2024877.1445973553623.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <20151028095906.GA2745@sivokote.iziade.m$>

I mean:  I don't trust any actor on any market.
If more than half of the actors decide to cooperate,
they trivially win in this case.
If the NSA decides to fuck a prediction, they can buy
ether and their bots will do the rest.




From Rayzer at riseup.net  Wed Oct 28 15:50:05 2015
From: Rayzer at riseup.net (Razer)
Date: Wed, 28 Oct 2015 15:50:05 -0700
Subject: Shiny stuff and designer societies
In-Reply-To: <20151028224101.4fc21f8d@comp>
References: <CAHWD2rJNTxt2+=0rPkkc+323pTn-njkvJVgUE624LShu2xg1Eg@mail.gmail.com>
 <5631192B.7060104@riseup.net>
 <5631272a.56968c0a.1a75c.ffff8b1e@mx.google.com>
 <20151028224101.4fc21f8d@comp>
Message-ID: <5631511D.6070802@riseup.net>

On 10/28/2015 02:41 PM, nonomos wrote:
> Am I the only one who gets an automatic grin on his face when he/she
> sees Juan posted something? 


Anyone who cuts to the chase gets a +1 from me!

RR, newline offender



> On Wed, 28 Oct 2015 16:57:38 -0300
> Juan <juan.g71 at gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> On Wed, 28 Oct 2015 11:51:23 -0700
>>
>> 2015-10-27 21:47 GMT+01:00 Shelley <shelley at xxxxxxxx>:
>>  >
>>  >     - Learn how to fix and repurpose things.  Take good care of
>>  > your things so they last longer.
>>  >
>>
>> 	That sounds like true capitalism (savings) whereas the system 
>> 	Lodewijk is advertising is mercantilism/consumerism/fascism. 
>>
>> 	Notice that Lodewijk has whined in the past about bitcoin
>> being 'deflationary', that is, not being a tool that can be used to
>> 	covertly steal. 
>> 	
>>
>> Lodewijk : > I think a society
>>> design that involves individual incentives (the best of capitalism;
>>> advanced finance, legal persons,
>> 	
>>
>> 	He's talking about mercantilism. By "advanced finance" he
>> 	actually means the banking mafia and government robbing
>> 	everybody blind. 
>>
>>
>> Lodewijk : 
>>> global optimization (the best of communism; managed competition,
>>> fine tuned production, >designed markets<) 
>>
>> 	That is to say, a mixed economy. Again.
>> 	mercantilism/fascim/state socialism/state communism. 
>>
>> 	Lodewijk is just a run of the mill fascist who thinks he has
>> 	the 'god given' right to 'design' 'society' according to his
>> 	fuckingly retarded tastes. 
>>
>> 	Also, he likes to pretend that the bad outcomes of his fascist
>> 	system are caused by innocent lambs who actually want to do
>> the 'right' thing. Sick.
>>
>>
>>
>> 	
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>


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From l at odewijk.nl  Wed Oct 28 08:08:44 2015
From: l at odewijk.nl (=?UTF-8?Q?Lodewijk_andr=C3=A9_de_la_porte?=)
Date: Wed, 28 Oct 2015 16:08:44 +0100
Subject: Shiny stuff and designer societies
Message-ID: <CAHWD2rJNTxt2+=0rPkkc+323pTn-njkvJVgUE624LShu2xg1Eg@mail.gmail.com>

New threat, this is offtopic.


So I think people took my meaning wrong. I meant to say "don't hate people
for behaving as the system rewards them to do", and then to ask "what kind
of system would make people behave as you like?".


2015-10-27 21:47 GMT+01:00 Shelley <shelley at misanthropia.org>:
>
> Suggestions, in no particular order:


I feel like you are ignoring the cost of time, underestimating people's
expenses, and arbitrarily hate cars and meat.


> - Don't buy the newest iCrap (or car or tv) every time they shit one out:
> you *don't * need it, I assure you.
>

For most "the latest iCrap" is not a significant expense. 200 euro's a
month or so (phone + laptop) is quite doable, especially given how much
time one spends with iCrap devices. Resale value is nonzero, too, so
really, quite doable.


> - Learn how to fix and repurpose things.  Take good care of your things so
> they last longer.
>

I know how to fix/repurpose most things. Actually fixing things often
doesn't compare favorably with just buying a new one - time spent at 10
euro's per hour makes most repairs very borderline effective.


> - Freecycle, trade with others
>

Trade what? I do secondhand shopping and selling when appropriate, that
should be good too.


> - Shop at second hand and thrift stores for most things.
>

Do, for the things it makes sense for. It takes more effort as you
frequently will not find what you were looking for. (protip: great for
amplifiers and speakers)


> - Think before you buy.  Try to support true fair trade/fair wages and buy
> locally whenever possible.  Hint: it's usually possible.
>

Fair trade/wages are determined by the capitalist market, not by me. I'm
simply not that arrogant. If you don't believe in markts you have more work
cut out for you than just buying fair trade branded products. (Protip:
fairtrade is just another way for things to be shiny)

Buying local is even more meaningless. If transport costs do not outweigh
production costs, go ferry it in from Australia, China, Chile, etc. You're
making the efficient choice by doing so.

- Use a bike or public transit whenever possible.  Get rid of your car and
> use things like Zip Car for the few occasions when you need to use a
> personal vehicle.  Share a car with friends if you truly need it for
> kids/work/whatever.
>

Public transport or Zip Carring add to stress, cost more time, are not
reliable and are not portable storage. I'd like an electric car, but the
initial purchase is so high it skews things like tax and insurance.

Idk why you hate cars so much. They're pretty damn useful, give you lots of
freedom and independence, and just help you get around so much better than
public transport. Their prices also compare with other forms of transport.

(bikes are slow and only really work in villages or compatible cities)


> - Prepare your own damn food.  Go vegan.
>

Preparing my own food is a waste of time, other people are cheaper, mass
production is cheaper, I'm very mediocre at cooking.

Going vegan is an interesting choice, all evidence points to it being much
much much better for the environment, etc. but meat is still quite
affordable and quite complimentary to meals. If it truly were 100x easier
on the environment I'd expect to see that in the price, and I hardly do. I
assume there's some sort of sponsoring going on, and until it stops I'll
keep on eating delicious and healthy meat.

(Hey, you asked for suggestions: these are mine.)


Thanks for playing :)

Razer mentioned a TV, I don't own one. I have a sizeable monitor. Much
prettier than most TVs. I might get a projector someday, it's fun to watch
movies together like that.

Razer also fuzzes about collectivism vs individualism. They used to have
collectivism in many nations. They all lost. I think a society design that
involves individual incentives (the best of capitalism; advanced finance,
legal persons, markets, competition), global optimization (the best of
communism; managed competition, fine tuned production, >designed markets<),
and collective ambition (the best of government/academia; being able to
strife together and make deep, long term investments) would be ideal.
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From shelley at misanthropia.org  Wed Oct 28 16:17:44 2015
From: shelley at misanthropia.org (Shelley)
Date: Wed, 28 Oct 2015 16:17:44 -0700
Subject: Shiny stuff and designer societies
In-Reply-To: <150b0aeef50.276e.4d489027c0c4d0c1b1ca03a1f48f1ffb@misanthropia.org>
References: <CAHWD2rJNTxt2+=0rPkkc+323pTn-njkvJVgUE624LShu2xg1Eg@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <20151028231728.1A96CC00019@frontend1.nyi.internal>

On October 28, 2015 8:09:08 AM Lodewijk andré de la porte <l at odewijk.nl> wrote:

> New threat, this is offtopic.

[Snipping as needed.  Warning: it is lengthy.]

I facepalmed so hard when I read this.  I support and agree with both 
Razer's and Juan's replies to this post; I just didn't want to offend the 
netiquette-sensitive by posting +1 to both replies.

All of these:

> I feel like you are ignoring the cost of time, underestimating people's
> expenses, and arbitrarily hate cars and meat.
>
> For most "the latest iCrap" is not a significant expense. 200 euro's a
> month or so (phone + laptop) is quite doable, especially given how much
> time one spends with iCrap devices. Resale value is nonzero, too, so
> really, quite doable.
>
> I know how to fix/repurpose most things. Actually fixing things often
> doesn't compare favorably with just buying a new one - time spent at 10
> euro's per hour makes most repairs very borderline effective.
>

Totally miss the point.  Totally.

You seem to be speaking from a position where it sounds like money is the 
focal point, the most important factor.  To me, it is the least important 
part of the equation.

Ever heard of voluntary simplicity?  It's a concept I have embraced for all 
of my adult life.  I don't have much money because I don't want it.  I 
don't use many resources because I like to tread lightly upon the earth, 
and I don't think it's fair if I have an abundance of something while 
others have none.  I'm not a capitalist, never have been nor will I ever 
be.  I agree with Razor's view of capitalism.  Juan's, too.

Nor do I have a god delusion that lets me shit all over the earth, be 
horrible to people and do whatever else I want as long as I say the magic 
words in a prayer and put an offering of filthy lucre in a basket for 
absolution.   This is the only shot I get at not being a totally useless 
garbage person.  My conscience won't allow me to mindlessly consume at the 
expense of the planet and other people.  I'm not sorry for that.

One aspect of the human cost of "shiny new crap" has already been pointed 
out by Razer.  I wasn't talking about the monetary cost to you (although 
paying €200/mo for a phone and laptop is incredibly unnecessary, imho.  But 
I like to have control over the operating systems of my devices, and see no 
reason to upgrade hardware to newer models if they're in good working order 
and meeting my needs.)

Do you get no sense of personal satisfaction from repairing something that 
would have gone into a landfill?  Or of building something exactly how you 
want it instead of buying overpriced, pressed particleboard crap that is 
toxic to both humans and the environment?  Where is your hacker ethic, man?

> > - Freecycle, trade with others
>
> Trade what? I do secondhand shopping and selling when appropriate, that
> should be good too.
>

More appropriate is the question, what wouldn't you trade?  Things you no 
longer use or need for something you do.  Skills you have, for some your 
neighbor has (can be as simple as I'll help you repair and paint your 
porch, you help me sow and plant my garden.)  Trading child/ elder/ pet 
care, shared meals, errands... do you really have no friends or neighbors 
with whom you do this?

> > - Shop at second hand and thrift stores for most things.
>
> Do, for the things it makes sense for. It takes more effort as you
> frequently will not find what you were looking for. (protip: great for
> amplifiers and speakers)
>

The list of what one wouldn't buy secondhand is much shorter. Yes, you can 
go into the Gap and buy a pair of pants for €70... but why would you want 
to?  So what if it takes me an hour to look through thrift store racks - 
for that $70, I'd come out with several pairs of perfectly nice pants, 
skirts, shirts... it's madness.

 I have a dresser for which I paid $20 at a thrift store, over 20 years 
ago.  It is made of sturdy, solid wood and in excellent condition, has 
survived cross-country trips and countless local moves.  Good luck with 
your Walmart junk!

That hour I "wasted" saving hundreds of $ or € in a thrift store?  I'll get 
it back by using commute time to read and catch up on things while taking 
the bus or train.  You'd be stuck driving in traffic (if you lived in my 
city; not sure how it is where you live), all stressed out.

What I don't buy used: undergarments, pillows, etc.  But I won't ever buy 
them at Walmart, either.

> > - Think before you buy.  Try to support true fair trade/fair wages and buy
> > locally whenever possible.  Hint: it's usually possible.
> >
> Fair trade/wages are determined by the capitalist market, not by me. I'm
> simply not that arrogant. If you don't believe in markts you have more work
> cut out for you than just buying fair trade branded products. (Protip:
> fairtrade is just another way for things to be shiny)

No. That's why I said *true* fair trade, a living fucking wage.  Not a bag 
of coffee from a corporate behemoth with a fake stamp on it.  Please, tell 
me you knew that and are just being cheeky?

>
> Buying local is even more meaningless. If transport costs do not outweigh
> production costs, go ferry it in from Australia, China, Chile, etc. You're
> making the efficient choice by doing so.
>

So are you saying that you're okay with people working in slave labor 
conditions & being paid subhuman wages, polluting the atmosphere by 
transporting this stuff for thousands of miles... instead of supporting the 
local businesses in your own community, if the price is right?  I can't 
even answer this.  Not without flaming.  I can't.

>
> Public transport or Zip Carring add to stress, cost more time, are not
> reliable and are not portable storage. I'd like an electric car, but the
> initial purchase is so high it skews things like tax and insurance.
>
> Idk why you hate cars so much. They're pretty damn useful, give you lots of
> freedom and independence, and just help you get around so much better than
> public transport. Their prices also compare with other forms of transport.
>
> (bikes are slow and only really work in villages or compatible cities)
>

I don't intrinsically hate cars.  As was already mentioned, does everyone 
really need one (or more) of them, though?  Your CBA is flawed because, 
again, you're only thinking of yourself.  Your convenience, your money.  
There is an entire world around you.  You could start by cutting back on 
the amount of damage you do to it.

Public transport sucks sometimes, no doubt.  Get involved to make it 
better.  It's not wasted time if you use it to read, learn something new, 
chat with someone, or post random bullshit to public internet lists ;)

On nice days, biking is good exercise for those who are able.  Most of us 
don't get enough exercise as it is.

>
> Preparing my own food is a waste of time, other people are cheaper, mass
> production is cheaper, I'm very mediocre at cooking.

It is not ANY of these things.  Use that time on the bus to learn how to 
cook basic stuff!  Cook on the weekend while hanging out with 
friends/family or rocking out to music and make your lunches and dinner 
main dishes for the entire next week.  How is that not saving time, money 
and being good for your health?

>
> Going vegan is an interesting choice, all evidence points to it being much
> much much better for the environment, etc.

It is, and much better for your health as well (not to mention, better for 
the animals!)

> but meat is still quite
> affordable and quite complimentary to meals. If it truly were 100x easier
> on the environment I'd expect to see that in the price, and I hardly do. I
> assume there's some sort of sponsoring going on, and until it stops I'll
> keep on eating delicious and healthy meat.

If the meat industry wasn't subsidized, you'd be paying $20/lb for 
hamburger.  If you're truly interested, read Diet for a New America by John 
Robbins (who was heir to The Baskin-Robbins ice cream fortune and walked 
away from it all to lead a vegan, ethical life.)

It has America in the title but is applicable to all (we are just among the 
worst offenders, as with most things.)  There are several documentaries 
that show the horrors of factory farming; I'll list some if you'd like.  
Not only is it barbaric, it is extremely unhealthy for you.

>
> Razer mentioned a TV, I don't own one.

Razer and Juan answered the rest of this with much more grace than I would. 
 Wouldnt want my "fuck" counter to push me higher on the offensiveness list ;)

-Shelley





From juan.g71 at gmail.com  Wed Oct 28 12:57:38 2015
From: juan.g71 at gmail.com (Juan)
Date: Wed, 28 Oct 2015 16:57:38 -0300
Subject: Shiny stuff and designer societies
In-Reply-To: <5631192B.7060104@riseup.net>
References: <CAHWD2rJNTxt2+=0rPkkc+323pTn-njkvJVgUE624LShu2xg1Eg@mail.gmail.com>
 <5631192B.7060104@riseup.net>
Message-ID: <5631272a.56968c0a.1a75c.ffff8b1e@mx.google.com>

On Wed, 28 Oct 2015 11:51:23 -0700

2015-10-27 21:47 GMT+01:00 Shelley <shelley at xxxxxxxx>:
 >
 >     - Learn how to fix and repurpose things.  Take good care of your
 >     things so they last longer.
 >

	That sounds like true capitalism (savings) whereas the system 
	Lodewijk is advertising is mercantilism/consumerism/fascism. 

	Notice that Lodewijk has whined in the past about bitcoin being
	'deflationary', that is, not being a tool that can be used to
	covertly steal. 
	

Lodewijk : > I think a society
> design that involves individual incentives (the best of capitalism;
> advanced finance, legal persons,
	

	He's talking about mercantilism. By "advanced finance" he
	actually means the banking mafia and government robbing
	everybody blind. 


Lodewijk : 
> global optimization (the best of communism; managed competition, fine
> tuned production, >designed markets<) 


	That is to say, a mixed economy. Again.
	mercantilism/fascim/state socialism/state communism. 

	Lodewijk is just a run of the mill fascist who thinks he has
	the 'god given' right to 'design' 'society' according to his
	fuckingly retarded tastes. 

	Also, he likes to pretend that the bad outcomes of his fascist
	system are caused by innocent lambs who actually want to do the
	'right' thing. Sick.



	














From schear.steve at gmail.com  Wed Oct 28 10:01:57 2015
From: schear.steve at gmail.com (Steven Schear)
Date: Wed, 28 Oct 2015 17:01:57 +0000
Subject: Ethereum and Auger
In-Reply-To: <20151028095906.GA2745@sivokote.iziade.m$>
References: <20151024115306.GA2820@sivokote.iziade.m$>
 <1836992162.2024877.1445973553623.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com>
 <20151028095906.GA2745@sivokote.iziade.m$>
Message-ID: <CAMyHXXfy3RUQVO+J1bRf_79onvPCKbt1SvWkEmaH3SejTjibBQ@mail.gmail.com>

On Wed, Oct 28, 2015 at 9:59 AM, Georgi Guninski <guninski at guninski.com>
wrote:

> I mean:  I don't trust any actor on any market.
> If more than half of the actors decide to cooperate,
> they trivially win in this case.
> If the NSA decides to fuck a prediction, they can buy
> ether and their bots will do the rest.
>

Does it matter whether the crowds can do accurate predictions if the main
purpose is for special actors with the skills and interest to be encouraged
to create outcomes that are being wagered upon. I've not looked closely at
Augur but back in Cpunk days stumped for PMs that included forwards,
similar to financial futures, but where the participants could create
contracts which narrowed the prediction windows to months, weeks or even
days within the greater expiry period (e.g., Dec. 31, 2015) but were not
required to specify which month, week or day . By enabling such
sub-contract narrowing the benefit for an accurate prediction scales with
its temporal ratio with the general contract thus increasing leverage and
benefit to special actors.

Steve
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From shelley at misanthropia.org  Wed Oct 28 18:40:02 2015
From: shelley at misanthropia.org (Shelley)
Date: Wed, 28 Oct 2015 18:40:02 -0700
Subject: Shiny stuff and designer societies
In-Reply-To: <150b1290920.276e.4d489027c0c4d0c1b1ca03a1f48f1ffb@misanthropia.org>
References: <CAHWD2rJNTxt2+=0rPkkc+323pTn-njkvJVgUE624LShu2xg1Eg@mail.gmail.com>
 <150b0aeef50.276e.4d489027c0c4d0c1b1ca03a1f48f1ffb@misanthropia.org>
 <20151028231728.1A96CC00019@frontend1.nyi.internal>
 <CAOsGNSThwv=c9K4v4HkD27PD+wY9+XykyTNOWs=7FOwPpxctZw@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <20151029013945.C7D9FC00012@frontend1.nyi.internal>

On October 28, 2015 5:01:18 PM Zenaan Harkness <zen at freedbms.net> wrote:

> On 10/28/15, Shelley <shelley at misanthropia.org> wrote:
>
> > Ever heard of voluntary simplicity?  It's a concept I have embraced for all
> > of my adult life.  I don't have much money because I don't want it.  I
>
> I support and respect your choices.
>
> I say money is not something a sane person should want or not want,
> for itself. Money is a tool in our present "reality".
>

Sane...yes.  Well that explains the Wall St vultures, then!

> I don't "want any money", but I do want to travel here and there and
> connect to the internet to type with you. At the moment I need certain
> amounts of money to facilitate achieving these things.

Right, and I do understand that.  While I truly wish we lived in a world 
where could trade and barter for everything, the ISP and utility companies 
want actual payment for services ;)

As was mentioned, nothing is pure or perfect.  Doing the best we can, which 
will be different for everyone, is the goal.  Some people really need to 
have a car.  I don't, so I do not.

A friend and I do our grocery shopping together.  He has a car because of 
work;  I very often take care of his cat.   I'm not going to pretend that I 
can walk or bike home with an armload of groceries and 13 kg of cat litter, 
lol.  We get to catch up and the chore of shopping goes by quickly.

>
> I don't have a TV - stopped watching 30+ years ago as a teenager as I
> found so much awesome stuff to read and learn, including the
> creativity I felt when learning to program a computer. Doing for the
> sake of enjoyment - climbing a tree was as enjoyable as typing in the
> next BASIC program, or some years prior, collecting a large pile of
> golden treasure grass (hay).
>

Right on, Zenaan!  (Sounds like we're about the same age, too.)  It's been 
about as long since I watched tv on a regular basis as well.  For my few 
indulgences, like The Walking Dead (yep, vegan pacifist likes zombie 
apocalypse. Hannibal, too!  Save the animals, Eat the Rude :D ), I go watch 
with friends.  More fun that way anyway.
I, um, may have downloaded Mr Robot.  Shhh.

> > My conscience won't allow me to mindlessly consume at the
> > expense of the planet and other people.
>
> A good thing of course. Perhaps a maker workshop within your travel
> capability would appeal to you?
>

There are several hacker spaces and maker spaces in my city, and many 
informal gatherings.  I'm very fortunate :)

> ...
> >> Preparing my own food is a waste of time, other people are cheaper, mass
> >> production is cheaper, I'm very mediocre at cooking.
> >
> > It is not ANY of these things.  Use that time on the bus to learn how to
> > cook basic stuff!  Cook on the weekend while hanging out with
> > friends/family or rocking out to music and make your lunches and dinner
> > main dishes for the entire next week.  How is that not saving time, money
> > and being good for your health?
>
> Is the essence of your point to "be mindful" - whether travel, food,
> things? It is remotely conceivable to me that being mindful might
> possibly contribute to a fuller and more meaningful and relaxed
> existence.
>

Well, yes.  Being mindful isn't always easy, but does lead to a more 
fulfilling existence.  It's more of... just trying to be a decent human, as 
I see it?  We're all stuck on this rock spinning in space. We may as well 
be decent to each other, things seem to be better that way.

What other rational choice is there?  Arbitrary boundaries of countries are 
drawn and redrawn like a game of Risk played in a dorm room, and with far 
less care; they mean nothing, in the humanistic sense.  We're all in the 
same damn boat.  We sink or swim, together.

Note: boundaries of other countries never seem to matter to the jerks who 
run mine, for a much different reason.  I am sorry, world.  More than I can 
convey.

So, yes.  I feel that all of our choices have a global impact, one way or 
another.  I try to tip the scales in favor of the greater good, when I can.

>
> >  Wouldnt want my "fuck" counter to push me higher on the offensiveness list
> > ;)
>
> Oh, yes, you, would :)
> Z

Well, fuck.  Ya got me :p

-S





From shelley at misanthropia.org  Wed Oct 28 18:51:13 2015
From: shelley at misanthropia.org (Shelley)
Date: Wed, 28 Oct 2015 18:51:13 -0700
Subject: Getting embarrassing - Syria, the long haul
In-Reply-To: <CAOsGNSTZt=awx3a8pW83ruGFE8WB49c2vbu0-Bgio3YvA9mF3w@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAOsGNSTZt=awx3a8pW83ruGFE8WB49c2vbu0-Bgio3YvA9mF3w@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <20151029015057.2B763C00012@frontend1.nyi.internal>

On October 28, 2015 6:15:39 PM Zenaan Harkness <zen at freedbms.net> wrote:

> This is getting embarrassing for "the West" - the so called moral high
> ground of the West, never existed. Even Hiroshima and Nagasaki were
> bombed -after- Japan had surrendered, just that America insisted on
> humiliation of unconditional surrender.

You're absolutely right.  We USians (or Americunts, as Juan says, which 
always makes me laugh in agreement), only have propaganda "textbooks" in 
school.  It's not unless/until we are fortunate enough to stumble upon 
Howard Zinn's books or develop critical thinking skills, despite their best 
efforts at indoctrination, that we truly see.

> http://russia-insider.com/en/documents-reveal-west-plotted-false-flag-justify-war-against-syria-1957/ri10799
> "
> In 1957, it was PG-13 “border clashes”. Now we have “government
> chemical weapons attacks against orphans”
> "
>
> I wonder where our CIA apologists are now ...
> Z
>

I'm not sure how seriously to take Russia-insider as I haven't looked into 
it enough, but this would hardly be surprising.  They were still on a roll 
from taking out the democratically elected leader of Iran, Mossadeq, in 
1953.  How many years was it before this was common knowledge?

It's despicable.  Now, as then.

(I don't often comment on politics.  Feeling sassy tonight, I guess.  Heh.)

-S





From jdb10987 at yahoo.com  Wed Oct 28 13:47:53 2015
From: jdb10987 at yahoo.com (jim bell)
Date: Wed, 28 Oct 2015 20:47:53 +0000 (UTC)
Subject: Ethereum and Auger
In-Reply-To: <CAMyHXXfy3RUQVO+J1bRf_79onvPCKbt1SvWkEmaH3SejTjibBQ@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAMyHXXfy3RUQVO+J1bRf_79onvPCKbt1SvWkEmaH3SejTjibBQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <718166271.4713274.1446065273226.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com>

  From: Steven Schear <schear.steve at gmail.com>
 To: Georgi Guninski <guninski at guninski.com> 
   
On Wed, Oct 28, 2015 at 9:59 AM, Georgi Guninski <guninski at guninski.com> wrote:



I mean:  I don't trust any actor on any market.
If more than half of the actors decide to cooperate,
they trivially win in this case.
If the NSA decides to fuck a prediction, they can buy
ether and their bots will do the rest.


>Does it matter whether the crowds can do accurate predictions if the main purpose is for special actors with the skills and interest>to be encouraged to create outcomes that are being wagered upon. 
Probably not.  I assume that the people who are implementing Ethereum have to (or, at least, want to) justify the existence of that proposed system somehow.  One analogy is with sports-betting systems, which have been attacked by law in various jurisdictions.  This amounts to their 'cover-story'.  Crop insurance, ordinary life insurance, and other examples of insurance would apply as well.  
>I've not looked closely at Augur but back in Cpunk days stumped for PMs that included forwards, similar to financial futures, but where the>participants could create contracts which narrowed the prediction windows to months, weeks or even days within the greater expiry period>(e.g., Dec. 31, 2015) but were not required to specify which month, week or day . By enabling such sub-contract narrowing the benefit for>an accurate prediction scales with its temporal ratio with the general contract thus increasing leverage and benefit to special actors.
>Steve
Prediction markets can be structured in (at least) two ways:  One, in which the current status of the prediction is kept known, for instance what the Policy Analysis Market was apparently intended to do.  ("Bet on the probability of a bombing attack at an embassy in Beirut during a given week").  In such a system, everybody can see the value of such a prediction coming true, varying up and down in amount over time.  The second, such as my AP essay, where the predictions are kept carefully secret until after the prediction comes true.  One potential weakness is that people might tend to game the system, concealing the death of a person, or alternatively, faking his death.  I can certainly see that there is a reason to turn things into futures-type market, as long as information about the predictions can be kept secret for long enough (days) to not give non-special predictors a hint as to the outcome, early.             Jim Bell

  
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From shelley at misanthropia.org  Wed Oct 28 21:32:48 2015
From: shelley at misanthropia.org (Shelley)
Date: Wed, 28 Oct 2015 21:32:48 -0700
Subject: Getting embarrassing - Syria, the long haul
In-Reply-To: <56318b9a.c6168c0a.349fc.ffffbc3f@mx.google.com>
References: <CAOsGNSTZt=awx3a8pW83ruGFE8WB49c2vbu0-Bgio3YvA9mF3w@mail.gmail.com>
 <20151029015057.2B763C00012@frontend1.nyi.internal>
 <56318b9a.c6168c0a.349fc.ffffbc3f@mx.google.com>
Message-ID: <20151029043231.68256C00019@frontend1.nyi.internal>

On October 28, 2015 8:06:12 PM Juan <juan.g71 at gmail.com> wrote:

> On Wed, 28 Oct 2015 18:51:13 -0700
> Shelley <shelley at misanthropia.org> wrote:
>
> > On October 28, 2015 6:15:39 PM Zenaan Harkness <zen at freedbms.net>
> > wrote:
> >
> > > This is getting embarrassing for "the West" - the so called moral
> > > high ground of the West, never existed. Even Hiroshima and Nagasaki
> > > were bombed -after- Japan had surrendered, just that America
> > > insisted on humiliation of unconditional surrender.
> >
> > You're absolutely right.  We USians (or Americunts, as Juan says,
> > which always makes me laugh in agreement),
>
>
> 	disclaimer of sorts : I don't mean to offend *all* americans.
> 	Only the nationalistic type =P  (and I fully realize Shelley
> 	doesn't belong in that category)
>

No offense taken! :)  Actually, I agree with you.  A lot of people deserve 
that label here.

I laughed because I'm always referring to Demoncraps and Rethuglicunts :D

> > only have propaganda
> > "textbooks" in school.  It's not unless/until we are fortunate enough
> > to stumble upon Howard Zinn's books or develop critical thinking
> > skills, despite their best efforts at indoctrination, that we truly
> > see.
>
>
> 	for what it's worth, when I first got interested in political
> 	philosophy, I foolishly assumed that the US were a 'free
> 	society'. It took me a while to gauge the distance between
> 	libertarian rhetoric and reality...
>

Yes, we thought so too.  That's what they still keep telling us!  It'd be 
funny if it weren't so sad.

Side note: someone questioned the use of the word fascism in regards to the 
USA?  Isn't corporate control of the government the very definition of it?  
Call it a corporatocracy, if you like that better.  I call it a demockracy.

-S

> >
> > > 
> http://russia-insider.com/en/documents-reveal-west-plotted-false-flag-justify-war-against-syria-1957/ri10799
> > > "
> > > In 1957, it was PG-13 “border clashes”. Now we have “government
> > > chemical weapons attacks against orphans”
> > > "
> > >
> > > I wonder where our CIA apologists are now ...
> > > Z
> > >
> >
> > I'm not sure how seriously to take Russia-insider as I haven't looked
> > into it enough, but this would hardly be surprising.  They were still
> > on a roll from taking out the democratically elected leader of Iran,
> > Mossadeq, in 1953.  How many years was it before this was common
> > knowledge?
> >
> > It's despicable.  Now, as then.
> >
> > (I don't often comment on politics.  Feeling sassy tonight, I guess.
> > Heh.)
> >
> > -S
> >
> >
>
>





From zen at freedbms.net  Wed Oct 28 15:15:17 2015
From: zen at freedbms.net (Zenaan Harkness)
Date: Wed, 28 Oct 2015 22:15:17 +0000
Subject: Shiny stuff and designer societies
In-Reply-To: <20151028224101.4fc21f8d@comp>
References: <CAHWD2rJNTxt2+=0rPkkc+323pTn-njkvJVgUE624LShu2xg1Eg@mail.gmail.com>
 <5631192B.7060104@riseup.net>
 <5631272a.56968c0a.1a75c.ffff8b1e@mx.google.com>
 <20151028224101.4fc21f8d@comp>
Message-ID: <CAOsGNSRGB=ct=_wPNXFWRbC9eCbUo_+RGgqE1QQaMe697b5j9w@mail.gmail.com>

On 10/28/15, nonomos <nonomos at mail.com> wrote:
> Am I the only one who gets an automatic grin on his face when he/she
> sees Juan posted something?

It is enjoyable when folks speak their mind. As in, really speak their
mind. And with Juan it's a really good opportunity to practice
ignoring the occasional sharp edge and hear what he's actually saying.

For some strange reason today when reading his comments my head
started spontaneously nodding, eyes squinted and a faint "mm hmmm"
came from somewhere in the room - and I was the only one within 500m.
I've been infected.

I still feel there might be a less confronting way to communicate his
political anarchist foundations, but that's the job of pioneers -
Juan's the true vision keeper/ trail blazer, and they come before
pioneers and need a hard head.

Doc: What's wrong?
Patient: I think I've god JDD.
D: WFT?
P: Juan Deficit Disorder.
D: Come on, don't waste my time, what's wrong?
P: It's the world. The world has JDD but doesn't know it.
D: You might need a different kind of doctor.
P: The whole world does.
D: Hard to disagree there...




From grarpamp at gmail.com  Wed Oct 28 19:17:25 2015
From: grarpamp at gmail.com (grarpamp)
Date: Wed, 28 Oct 2015 22:17:25 -0400
Subject: mailing list etiquette violators list
In-Reply-To: <56307165.2080704@riseup.net>
References: <20151025103124.GW7122@ctrlc.hu> <56307165.2080704@riseup.net>
Message-ID: <CAD2Ti28zKFnWAFBsTPiZaoJW0C2nxxEhQRYaR3D33GkcUYVR0w@mail.gmail.com>

On Wed, Oct 28, 2015 at 2:55 AM, odinn <odinn.cyberguerrilla at riseup.net> wrote:
> What we are seeing is the collective dissolving of backbone of
> societies; it may be subconscious or it may even be intentional ~ in
> the end, it doesn't matter:  It's happening.
> ...
> they have already decided that I and others should be filtered out

It's intentional, they're winning, and you gave them data knowledge
SMTP and power to do it.
Mining, surveilling, vacuuming, controlling, PATRIOT CISA, and bs laws
upon bs policies,
protecting the top echelon... they're spooling up and becoming self
aware, a SkyNet
with rendition and disappearing powers, faster than you were supposed
to be doing with
your own Western Spring... too much iWhatever, go go USA, beer and
Simpsons it seems.
Millions of your circlejerked words, petitions, letters... lol, fuck
you, we do as we please
they say. Keep on bending over and taking it up the ass, serfs, you
know you love it.
It's beyond serious now, a heavy unbalance... another good crash,
millions in the
streets, a Spring to resolve it all, who knows...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xQAASBAYKsI
You're going to need some good p2p to organize and sustain that
when it happens, because unlike what they played in the mideast,
this show sure as shit isn't going down on facetwatter, it'll be censored.
Better get off these stupid threads and start coding, testing and
acting... punks.




From nonomos at mail.com  Wed Oct 28 14:41:01 2015
From: nonomos at mail.com (nonomos)
Date: Wed, 28 Oct 2015 22:41:01 +0100
Subject: Shiny stuff and designer societies
In-Reply-To: <5631272a.56968c0a.1a75c.ffff8b1e@mx.google.com>
References: <CAHWD2rJNTxt2+=0rPkkc+323pTn-njkvJVgUE624LShu2xg1Eg@mail.gmail.com>
 <5631192B.7060104@riseup.net>
 <5631272a.56968c0a.1a75c.ffff8b1e@mx.google.com>
Message-ID: <20151028224101.4fc21f8d@comp>

Am I the only one who gets an automatic grin on his face when he/she
sees Juan posted something? 

On Wed, 28 Oct 2015 16:57:38 -0300
Juan <juan.g71 at gmail.com> wrote:

> On Wed, 28 Oct 2015 11:51:23 -0700
> 
> 2015-10-27 21:47 GMT+01:00 Shelley <shelley at xxxxxxxx>:
>  >
>  >     - Learn how to fix and repurpose things.  Take good care of
>  > your things so they last longer.
>  >
> 
> 	That sounds like true capitalism (savings) whereas the system 
> 	Lodewijk is advertising is mercantilism/consumerism/fascism. 
> 
> 	Notice that Lodewijk has whined in the past about bitcoin
> being 'deflationary', that is, not being a tool that can be used to
> 	covertly steal. 
> 	
> 
> Lodewijk : > I think a society
> > design that involves individual incentives (the best of capitalism;
> > advanced finance, legal persons,
> 	
> 
> 	He's talking about mercantilism. By "advanced finance" he
> 	actually means the banking mafia and government robbing
> 	everybody blind. 
> 
> 
> Lodewijk : 
> > global optimization (the best of communism; managed competition,
> > fine tuned production, >designed markets<) 
> 
> 
> 	That is to say, a mixed economy. Again.
> 	mercantilism/fascim/state socialism/state communism. 
> 
> 	Lodewijk is just a run of the mill fascist who thinks he has
> 	the 'god given' right to 'design' 'society' according to his
> 	fuckingly retarded tastes. 
> 
> 	Also, he likes to pretend that the bad outcomes of his fascist
> 	system are caused by innocent lambs who actually want to do
> the 'right' thing. Sick.
> 
> 
> 
> 	
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 




From grarpamp at gmail.com  Wed Oct 28 19:55:26 2015
From: grarpamp at gmail.com (grarpamp)
Date: Wed, 28 Oct 2015 22:55:26 -0400
Subject: Surveillance... Beware the Weather Blimps
Message-ID: <CAD2Ti2-rXYLAttQ_u-brSiKC0t-_SU86KnxN=RV3iSrxDu+RHQ@mail.gmail.com>

http://techcrunch.com/2015/10/28/ibm-will-acquire-the-weather-companys-digital-business/
According to IBM, the acquisition helps it to harness one of the
largest big data opportunities in the world ... The deal will combine
two big data platforms, IBM's cognitive and analytics business with
that of Weather ... The Weather Company has the fourth-most visited
mobile app in the U.S. and handles 26 billion inquiries to its
cloud-based services daily, generating about 4 GB of data per second
... including Weather's mobile and web properties, which analyze data
from ... over 40 million mobile phones

http://www.baltimoresun.com/news/maryland/harford/aberdeen-havre-de-grace/bs-md-jlens-blimp-loose-20151028-story.html
JLENS, has become a fixture of the Baltimore skyline since the first
of the two blimps was launched over Middle River in December. When
aloft, the aircraft use sophisticated radar to see up to 340 miles in
any direction ... It can be used to track ... cars on land.
Authorities say the system is intended to watch for and direct fire on
... other threats. Privacy advocates, meanwhile, have expressed
concern about deploying such sophisticated surveillance technology
over the United States.




From zen at freedbms.net  Wed Oct 28 16:27:32 2015
From: zen at freedbms.net (Zenaan Harkness)
Date: Wed, 28 Oct 2015 23:27:32 +0000
Subject: strange coincidences - largest ever drugs bust at Rafik Hariri
 International Airport
In-Reply-To: <5630881e.04918c0a.bba05.1dd5@mx.google.com>
References: <CAOsGNSRVLrsXXypaf5hgxyD4ZPE=ARbTvsW9kpyJbabaACmYxQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <5630881e.04918c0a.bba05.1dd5@mx.google.com>
Message-ID: <CAOsGNSRgDQ48uKMD9mychNLeH3XKYxnd1yXOxa0AnMGrF+grSA@mail.gmail.com>

On 10/28/15, Juan <juan.g71 at gmail.com> wrote:
> 	"The question still remains, how comes such a thing as "a
> 	nation" to exist? How do millions of men, scattered over an
> 	extensive territory, each gifted by nature with individual
> 	freedom; required by the law of nature to call no man, or body
> 	of men, his masters; authorized by that law to seek his own
> 	happiness in his own way, to do what he will with himself and
> 	his property, so long as he does not trespass upon the equal
> 	liberty of others; authorized also, by that law, to defend his
> 	own rights, and redress his own wrongs; and to go to the
> 	assistance and defence of any [*10] of his fellow men who may
> 	be suffering any kind of injustice --- how do millions of such
> 	men come to be a nation, in the first place? How is it that
> 	each of them comes to be stripped of his natural, God-given
> 	rights, and to be incorporated, compressed, compacted, and
> 	consolidated into a mass with other men, whom he never saw;
> 	with whom he has no contract; and towards many of whom he has
> 	no sentiments but fear, hatred, or contempt? How does he become
> 	subjected to the control of men like himself, who, by nature,
> 	had no authority over him; but who command him to do this, and
> 	forbid him to do that, as if they were his sovereigns, and he
> 	their subject; and as if their wills and their interests were
> 	the only standards of his duties and his rights; and who compel
> 	him to submission under peril of confiscation, imprisonment,
> 	and death?
>
> 	Clearly all this is the work of force, or fraud, or both."
> 	L. Spooner - No Treason.

Well written. Spooner is now one for my must read list.

The apparatus of control is certainly impressive - a quarter of a
billion people living in fear, tyranny, living for others not for
himself, on the treadmill by consent just with a little stick prodding
of force and some shiny carrot things to ease the violation,
submission, subjugation of personal will.

Sounds like we're mostly dimmis, even without Islam the submission religion.

Split the 'democratic' parliament in two with a party system, each
party has a caucus or 'elite head group', and we're down to a handful
of individuals to be paid off or blackmailed to steer the nation
continually into the hands of the bankers.

I read once that Hitler, like America's two assassinated presidents,
tried to take the money power back from the banks, and thus had to be
demonised as no other. Just conspiracy we should be sure.
Z




From zen at freedbms.net  Wed Oct 28 16:54:43 2015
From: zen at freedbms.net (Zenaan Harkness)
Date: Wed, 28 Oct 2015 23:54:43 +0000
Subject: Shiny stuff and designer societies
In-Reply-To: <20151028231728.1A96CC00019@frontend1.nyi.internal>
References: <CAHWD2rJNTxt2+=0rPkkc+323pTn-njkvJVgUE624LShu2xg1Eg@mail.gmail.com>
 <150b0aeef50.276e.4d489027c0c4d0c1b1ca03a1f48f1ffb@misanthropia.org>
 <20151028231728.1A96CC00019@frontend1.nyi.internal>
Message-ID: <CAOsGNSThwv=c9K4v4HkD27PD+wY9+XykyTNOWs=7FOwPpxctZw@mail.gmail.com>

On 10/28/15, Shelley <shelley at misanthropia.org> wrote:
> On October 28, 2015 8:09:08 AM Lodewijk andré de la porte <l at odewijk.nl>

> Ever heard of voluntary simplicity?  It's a concept I have embraced for all
> of my adult life.  I don't have much money because I don't want it.  I

I support and respect your choices.

I say money is not something a sane person should want or not want,
for itself. Money is a tool in our present "reality".

I don't "want any money", but I do want to travel here and there and
connect to the internet to type with you. At the moment I need certain
amounts of money to facilitate achieving these things.

I don't have a TV - stopped watching 30+ years ago as a teenager as I
found so much awesome stuff to read and learn, including the
creativity I felt when learning to program a computer. Doing for the
sake of enjoyment - climbing a tree was as enjoyable as typing in the
next BASIC program, or some years prior, collecting a large pile of
golden treasure grass (hay).


> My conscience won't allow me to mindlessly consume at the
> expense of the planet and other people.

A good thing of course. Perhaps a maker workshop within your travel
capability would appeal to you?

...
>> Preparing my own food is a waste of time, other people are cheaper, mass
>> production is cheaper, I'm very mediocre at cooking.
>
> It is not ANY of these things.  Use that time on the bus to learn how to
> cook basic stuff!  Cook on the weekend while hanging out with
> friends/family or rocking out to music and make your lunches and dinner
> main dishes for the entire next week.  How is that not saving time, money
> and being good for your health?

Is the essence of your point to "be mindful" - whether travel, food,
things? It is remotely conceivable to me that being mindful might
possibly contribute to a fuller and more meaningful and relaxed
existence.


>  Wouldnt want my "fuck" counter to push me higher on the offensiveness list
> ;)

Oh, yes, you, would :)
Z




From juan.g71 at gmail.com  Wed Oct 28 20:06:07 2015
From: juan.g71 at gmail.com (Juan)
Date: Thu, 29 Oct 2015 00:06:07 -0300
Subject: Getting embarrassing - Syria, the long haul
In-Reply-To: <20151029015057.2B763C00012@frontend1.nyi.internal>
References: <CAOsGNSTZt=awx3a8pW83ruGFE8WB49c2vbu0-Bgio3YvA9mF3w@mail.gmail.com>
 <20151029015057.2B763C00012@frontend1.nyi.internal>
Message-ID: <56318b9a.c6168c0a.349fc.ffffbc3f@mx.google.com>

On Wed, 28 Oct 2015 18:51:13 -0700
Shelley <shelley at misanthropia.org> wrote:

> On October 28, 2015 6:15:39 PM Zenaan Harkness <zen at freedbms.net>
> wrote:
> 
> > This is getting embarrassing for "the West" - the so called moral
> > high ground of the West, never existed. Even Hiroshima and Nagasaki
> > were bombed -after- Japan had surrendered, just that America
> > insisted on humiliation of unconditional surrender.
> 
> You're absolutely right.  We USians (or Americunts, as Juan says,
> which always makes me laugh in agreement),


	disclaimer of sorts : I don't mean to offend *all* americans.
	Only the nationalistic type =P  (and I fully realize Shelley
	doesn't belong in that category)


> only have propaganda
> "textbooks" in school.  It's not unless/until we are fortunate enough
> to stumble upon Howard Zinn's books or develop critical thinking
> skills, despite their best efforts at indoctrination, that we truly
> see.


	for what it's worth, when I first got interested in political
	philosophy, I foolishly assumed that the US were a 'free
	society'. It took me a while to gauge the distance between
	libertarian rhetoric and reality...


> 
> > http://russia-insider.com/en/documents-reveal-west-plotted-false-flag-justify-war-against-syria-1957/ri10799
> > "
> > In 1957, it was PG-13 “border clashes”. Now we have “government
> > chemical weapons attacks against orphans”
> > "
> >
> > I wonder where our CIA apologists are now ...
> > Z
> >
> 
> I'm not sure how seriously to take Russia-insider as I haven't looked
> into it enough, but this would hardly be surprising.  They were still
> on a roll from taking out the democratically elected leader of Iran,
> Mossadeq, in 1953.  How many years was it before this was common
> knowledge?
> 
> It's despicable.  Now, as then.
> 
> (I don't often comment on politics.  Feeling sassy tonight, I guess.
> Heh.)
> 
> -S
> 
> 





From zen at freedbms.net  Wed Oct 28 17:07:57 2015
From: zen at freedbms.net (Zenaan Harkness)
Date: Thu, 29 Oct 2015 00:07:57 +0000
Subject: Shiny stuff and designer societies
In-Reply-To: <CAOsGNSThwv=c9K4v4HkD27PD+wY9+XykyTNOWs=7FOwPpxctZw@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAHWD2rJNTxt2+=0rPkkc+323pTn-njkvJVgUE624LShu2xg1Eg@mail.gmail.com>
 <150b0aeef50.276e.4d489027c0c4d0c1b1ca03a1f48f1ffb@misanthropia.org>
 <20151028231728.1A96CC00019@frontend1.nyi.internal>
 <CAOsGNSThwv=c9K4v4HkD27PD+wY9+XykyTNOWs=7FOwPpxctZw@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAOsGNSR7dO6ZbSAuMO1inVsjve3LQPuGfAcdxd9dMiQzgBFXag@mail.gmail.com>

On 10/28/15, Zenaan Harkness <zen at freedbms.net> wrote:
> On 10/28/15, Shelley <shelley at misanthropia.org> wrote:

>> My conscience won't allow me to mindlessly consume at the
>> expense of the planet and other people.
>
> A good thing of course. Perhaps a maker workshop within your travel
> capability would appeal to you?

This just in, and timely it is:
"Ford Model T - 100 Years Later"
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S4KrIMZpwCY

It's relative simplicity does inspire...




From zen at freedbms.net  Wed Oct 28 18:09:15 2015
From: zen at freedbms.net (Zenaan Harkness)
Date: Thu, 29 Oct 2015 01:09:15 +0000
Subject: Getting embarrassing - Syria, the long haul
Message-ID: <CAOsGNSTZt=awx3a8pW83ruGFE8WB49c2vbu0-Bgio3YvA9mF3w@mail.gmail.com>

This is getting embarrassing for "the West" - the so called moral high
ground of the West, never existed. Even Hiroshima and Nagasaki were
bombed -after- Japan had surrendered, just that America insisted on
humiliation of unconditional surrender.

http://russia-insider.com/en/documents-reveal-west-plotted-false-flag-justify-war-against-syria-1957/ri10799
"
In 1957, it was PG-13 “border clashes”. Now we have “government
chemical weapons attacks against orphans”
"

I wonder where our CIA apologists are now ...
Z




From zen at freedbms.net  Wed Oct 28 18:55:39 2015
From: zen at freedbms.net (Zenaan Harkness)
Date: Thu, 29 Oct 2015 01:55:39 +0000
Subject: Putin Documentary by Russian state
Message-ID: <CAOsGNSQu5Xj6fRFu3qrzXWXWiihYdnSREBs3vjRq4kH0rnGZ5g@mail.gmail.com>

For those who wish to balance their Western media consumption levels.

This version contains 8 parts of about 40MiB each, and has the English
subtitles inbuilt:
http://russia-insider.com/en/politics/president-putins-15-years-power-en-subtitles-video/ri7089

This a single file version, about 1.5GiB, but no subtitles appear to
be available as at today, which is unfortunate since the quality is
great, but if you speak Russian, this is the one for you:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HyNcbVuDJyA

Enjoy,
Zenaan




From nonomos at mail.com  Wed Oct 28 18:00:49 2015
From: nonomos at mail.com (nonomos)
Date: Thu, 29 Oct 2015 02:00:49 +0100
Subject: Shiny stuff and designer societies
In-Reply-To: <CAOsGNSR7dO6ZbSAuMO1inVsjve3LQPuGfAcdxd9dMiQzgBFXag@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAHWD2rJNTxt2+=0rPkkc+323pTn-njkvJVgUE624LShu2xg1Eg@mail.gmail.com>
 <150b0aeef50.276e.4d489027c0c4d0c1b1ca03a1f48f1ffb@misanthropia.org>
 <20151028231728.1A96CC00019@frontend1.nyi.internal>
 <CAOsGNSThwv=c9K4v4HkD27PD+wY9+XykyTNOWs=7FOwPpxctZw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAOsGNSR7dO6ZbSAuMO1inVsjve3LQPuGfAcdxd9dMiQzgBFXag@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <20151029020049.58628ac7@comp>

No pun intended though, keep on raging! But I would stop using fascism
for every injustice. When there's a case of fascism, let's use the
f-word. Using it too often makes it less powerfull.

On Thu, 29 Oct 2015 00:07:57 +0000
Zenaan Harkness <zen at freedbms.net> wrote:

> On 10/28/15, Zenaan Harkness <zen at freedbms.net> wrote:
> > On 10/28/15, Shelley <shelley at misanthropia.org> wrote:
> 
> >> My conscience won't allow me to mindlessly consume at the
> >> expense of the planet and other people.
> >
> > A good thing of course. Perhaps a maker workshop within your travel
> > capability would appeal to you?
> 
> This just in, and timely it is:
> "Ford Model T - 100 Years Later"
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S4KrIMZpwCY
> 
> It's relative simplicity does inspire...




From zen at freedbms.net  Wed Oct 28 20:15:34 2015
From: zen at freedbms.net (Zenaan Harkness)
Date: Thu, 29 Oct 2015 03:15:34 +0000
Subject: Surveillance... Beware the Weather Blimps
In-Reply-To: <CAD2Ti2-rXYLAttQ_u-brSiKC0t-_SU86KnxN=RV3iSrxDu+RHQ@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAD2Ti2-rXYLAttQ_u-brSiKC0t-_SU86KnxN=RV3iSrxDu+RHQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAOsGNSRyvDrRRAZXTckp6jqSx_SyfpxEO8vdGNfyt55tW23fyA@mail.gmail.com>

On 10/29/15, grarpamp <grarpamp at gmail.com> wrote:
> http://techcrunch.com/2015/10/28/ibm-will-acquire-the-weather-companys-digital-business/
> According to IBM, the acquisition helps it to harness one of the
> largest big data opportunities in the world ... The deal will combine
> two big data platforms, IBM's cognitive and analytics business with
> that of Weather ... The Weather Company has the fourth-most visited
> mobile app in the U.S. and handles 26 billion inquiries to its
> cloud-based services daily, generating about 4 GB of data per second
> ... including Weather's mobile and web properties, which analyze data
> from ... over 40 million mobile phones
>
> http://www.baltimoresun.com/news/maryland/harford/aberdeen-havre-de-grace/bs-md-jlens-blimp-loose-20151028-story.html
> JLENS, has become a fixture of the Baltimore skyline since the first
> of the two blimps was launched over Middle River in December. When
> aloft, the aircraft use sophisticated radar to see up to 340 miles in
> any direction ... It can be used to track ... cars on land.
> Authorities say the system is intended to watch for and direct fire on
> ... other threats.

F*CK F*****CK.

> Privacy advocates, meanwhile, have expressed
> concern about deploying such sophisticated surveillance technology
> over the United States.

Oh whew! - you had me going for a second there gp, now I can sleep
safe at night, knowing that privacy advocates -have- expressed
concerns. Just as well or we'd be well and truly monitored. "They"
solved the problem for me. Gee I love privacy advocates, give me
nothing to do to retain my privacy. What a wonderful world we live in.




From Rayzer at riseup.net  Thu Oct 29 07:58:30 2015
From: Rayzer at riseup.net (Razer)
Date: Thu, 29 Oct 2015 07:58:30 -0700
Subject: Surveillance... Beware the Weather Blimps
In-Reply-To: <CAD2Ti2-rXYLAttQ_u-brSiKC0t-_SU86KnxN=RV3iSrxDu+RHQ@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAD2Ti2-rXYLAttQ_u-brSiKC0t-_SU86KnxN=RV3iSrxDu+RHQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <56323416.1040701@riseup.net>

On 10/28/2015 07:55 PM, grarpamp wrote:

> http://techcrunch.com/2015/10/28/ibm-will-acquire-the-weather-companys-digital-business/
>
> According to IBM, the acquisition helps it to harness one of the
> largest big data opportunities in the world ... The deal will combine
> two big data platforms, IBM's cognitive and analytics business with
> that of Weather ... The Weather Company has the fourth-most visited
> mobile app in the U.S. and handles 26 billion inquiries to its
> cloud-based services daily, generating about 4 GB of data per second
> ... including Weather's mobile and web properties, which analyze data
> from ... over 40 million mobile phones
>
> http://www.baltimoresun.com/news/maryland/harford/aberdeen-havre-de-grace/bs-md-jlens-blimp-loose-20151028-story.html
>
> JLENS, has become a fixture of the Baltimore skyline since the first
> of the two blimps was launched over Middle River in December. When
> aloft, the aircraft use sophisticated radar to see up to 340 miles in
> any direction ... It can be used to track ... cars on land.
> Authorities say the system is intended to watch for and direct fire on
> ... other threats. Privacy advocates, meanwhile, have expressed concern 
> about deploying such sophisticated surveillance technologyover the United States.
>

From the Sun article:

> 
> Raytheon, the contractor that makes the blimps, says the cable is unlikely to break. "The chance of that happening is very small because the tether is made of Vectran and has withstood storms in excess of 100 knots," the company said on its website. "However, in the unlikely event it does happen, there are a number of procedures and systems in place which are designed to bring the aerostat down in a safe manner."


Yeah: " a number of procedures and systems in place"... which begs the
question how much does it cost to scramble two f-16s to follow it around
like a cow gone astray?

Houston, we have a problem:


Military Blimp’s Rampage Deflates Raytheon’s Hopes to Sell More

In what may be the most bizarre and public crash of a multi-billion
dollar Pentagon boondoggle ever, a surveillance blimp flying over an
Army base in Maryland broke loose Wednesday afternoon, its 6,000-foot
long tether wreaking havoc on the countryside before it finally came
down in pieces in Pennsylvania.

The giant airship — 80 yards long and about the size of three Goodyear
blimps — was one of a pair that represented the last gasp of an 18-year,
$2.7 billion-dollar program called JLENS or “Joint Land Attack Cruise
Missile Defense Elevated Netted Sensor System.”

There were once supposed to be 36 of them, their high-resolution
360-degree radar coverage up to 340 miles in any direction protecting
the nation from cruise missiles.

But costs inflated, doubts about their utility mounted, and the program
was scaled back and almost killed.

Blimps, it turns out, have had mixed success in purely military terms.
When equipped with cameras, they are highly effective at conducting
surveillance – but the Army promised there were no cameras on the JLENS
blimps.

What blimps are best at is having a psychological effect: making people
feel like they’re being watched. Filmmaker Kirsten Johnson’s short
documentary The Above touches on that phenomenon. The film, made for The
Intercept‘s Field of Vision project, mostly shows a U.S. military
surveillance balloon floating on a tether high above Kabul, Afghanistan.
But it ends with shots of the JLENS.

Finally, the Army agreed to launch two of them, for a three-year test.
They were hovering at a height of 10,000 feet just off Interstate 95,
about 45 miles northeast of Washington, D.C., and about 20 miles from
Baltimore. In theory, they could track moving objects from North
Carolina to Boston, or an area the size of Texas. With only two in the
air, they effectively cost about $1.4 billion each — a lot, even by
advanced weapons standards.

While the blimps became perhaps the Pentagon’s most visible white
elephants, their manufacturer, the Raytheon Co., still hoped to make
some more money off them.

The huge defense contractor’s endgame, at least until Wednesday, seemed
to be trying to sell them abroad.

In a video interview with Shephard Media just two weeks ago, Douglas
Burgess, director of persistent surveillance programs at Raytheon,
discussed the JLENS program. “There’s a lot of interest internationally,
particularly now that we’re up and flying,” he said. “I can’t talk
specifics about who, but there is certainly a lot of interest
internationally.”

As for his next step? “For us, it’s to get the A+, I call it, on the
scorecard from NORAD about its operational utility here on the East
Coast. So that’s really our near-term focus.”

But that A+ has now most likely turned into something closer to an F.

Then again, JLENS has cheated death before. After a JLENS blimp was
destroyed in a storm in September of 2010, Army officials raised doubts
about the program, attempting to scale it back. That set in motion an
aggressive effort by Raytheon to win over support from Capitol Hill and
the Pentagon.

Raytheon retained the lobbying services of former Sens. John Breaux,
D-La., and Trent Lott, R-Miss., through the firm now known as Squire
Patton Boggs, to press lawmakers on the urgency of the program. TCOM, a
subcontractor for the project, also brought on lobbyists to boost the
blimp, including American Defense International, a D.C. consulting firm.

The company’s officials argued that the JLENS could be used “not just in
combat, but also American cities and towns” as a surveillance tool for
tracking small planes and other domestic threats, according to an
investigation by the Los Angeles Times.

Raytheon, which sponsors regular advertisements in the Beltway Metro
system and is a prominent sponsor of think tanks across the city,
launched a series of promotional videos. Make sure you have the sound up
for this one:

The savior of the JLENS program, according to the Times, was Marine
Corps Gen. James E. “Hoss” Cartwright, then vice chairman of the Joint
Chiefs of Staff. Cartwright argued within the ranks of the military that
the blimp had broad use, despite claims by many that the blimps would
not be much use against the type of crude weapons, such as IEDs, used
against troops in Iraq and Afghanistan.

Cartwright, after securing support for the blimp, joined Raytheon’s
board, a position that has paid him more than $828,000 in cash and stock.

Among the promotional material Raytheon prepared for JLENS was a FAQ.
One of the questions was “Can the tether break?”

The Raytheon answer: “The chance of that happening is very small because
the tether is made of Vectran and has withstood storms in excess of 100
knots. However, in the unlikely event it does happen, there are a number
of procedures and systems in place which are designed to bring the
aerostat down in a safe manner.”

--30--

With links:
https://theintercept.com/2015/10/28/military-blimps-rampage-deflates-raytheons-hopes-to-sell-more/



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From Rayzer at riseup.net  Thu Oct 29 08:11:44 2015
From: Rayzer at riseup.net (Razer)
Date: Thu, 29 Oct 2015 08:11:44 -0700
Subject: Getting embarrassing - Syria, the long haul
In-Reply-To: <56319052.7050002@gothic.com.au>
References: <CAOsGNSTZt=awx3a8pW83ruGFE8WB49c2vbu0-Bgio3YvA9mF3w@mail.gmail.com>
 <56319052.7050002@gothic.com.au>
Message-ID: <56323730.5020002@riseup.net>



On 10/28/2015 08:19 PM, goran at gothic.com.au wrote:
> Blog by Adam Curtis, THE BABY AND THE BAATH WATER
>
> http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/adamcurtis/entries/d3921cac-2144-306a-9f6e-712c0c685010
>

Curtis is also responsible for "The Power Of Nightmares" BBC documentary.

His hypothesis is the Muslim Brotherhood, al-Qaeda, and the Neocons all
have common roots in the lecture hall and philosophy of Leo Strauss.

> THE POWER OF NIGHTMARES
>
> Three part series
> I: Baby It's Cold Outside
> II: The Phantom Victory
> III: The Shadows In The Cave
>
> Tuesday, 18 January, 2005 2320 GMT on BBC Two
>
> Available @Archive.org:
> https://archive.org/details/ThePowerOfNightmares-Episode1BabyItsColdOutside
>
> Should we be worried about the threat from organised terrorism or is
> it simply a phantom menace being used to stop society from falling apart?
>
> In the past our politicians offered us dreams of a better world. Now
> they promise to protect us from nightmares.
>
> The most frightening of these is the threat of an international terror
> network. But just as the dreams were not true, neither are these
> nightmares.
>
> In a new series, the Power of Nightmares explores how the idea that we
> are threatened by a hidden and organised terrorist network is an illusion.
>
> It is a myth that has spread unquestioned through politics, the
> security services and the international media.
>
> At the heart of the story are two groups: the American
> neo-conservatives and the radical Islamists.
>
> Both were idealists who were born out of the failure of the liberal
> dream to build a better world.
>
> These two groups have changed the world but not in the way either
> intended.
>
> Together they created today's nightmare vision of an organised terror
> network.
>
> A fantasy that politicians then found restored their power and
> authority in a disillusioned age. Those with the darkest fears became
> the most powerful.
>
> The rise of the politics of fear begins in 1949 with two men whose
> radical ideas would inspire the attack of 9/11 and influence the
> neo-conservative movement that dominates Washington.
>
> Both these men believed that modern liberal freedoms were eroding the
> bonds that held society together.
>
> The two movements they inspired set out, in their different ways, to
> rescue their societies from this decay. But in an age of growing
> disillusion with politics, the neo-conservatives turned to fear in
> order to pursue their vision.
>
> They would create a hidden network of evil run by the Soviet Union
> that only they could see.
>
> The Islamists were faced by the refusal of the masses to follow their
> dream and began to turn to terror to force the people to "see the truth"'.
>
> The Power of Nightmares will be broadcast over three nights from
> Tuesday 18 to Thursday, 20 January, 2005 at 2320 GMT on BBC Two. The
> final part has been updated in the wake of the Law Lords ruling in
> December that detaining foreign terrorist suspects without trial was
> illegal.
>
> http://news.bbc.co.uk/go/pr/fr/-/2/hi/programmes/3755686.stm




>
> On 29/10/2015 12:09, Zenaan Harkness wrote:
>> This is getting embarrassing for "the West" - the so called moral high
>> ground of the West, never existed. Even Hiroshima and Nagasaki were
>> bombed -after- Japan had surrendered, just that America insisted on
>> humiliation of unconditional surrender.
>>
>> http://russia-insider.com/en/documents-reveal-west-plotted-false-flag-justify-war-against-syria-1957/ri10799
>> "
>> In 1957, it was PG-13 “border clashes”. Now we have “government
>> chemical weapons attacks against orphans”
>> "
>>
>> I wonder where our CIA apologists are now ...
>> Z
>>
>>
>


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From Rayzer at riseup.net  Thu Oct 29 08:53:27 2015
From: Rayzer at riseup.net (Razer)
Date: Thu, 29 Oct 2015 08:53:27 -0700
Subject: Shiny stuff and designer societies
In-Reply-To: <CAHWD2rLJ0RgxcGZi=mKD=OfYYtCy1j9sfbzDKOVZuuX5EPCnJg@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAHWD2rJNTxt2+=0rPkkc+323pTn-njkvJVgUE624LShu2xg1Eg@mail.gmail.com>
 <150b0aeef50.276e.4d489027c0c4d0c1b1ca03a1f48f1ffb@misanthropia.org>
 <20151028231728.1A96CC00019@frontend1.nyi.internal>
 <CAOsGNSThwv=c9K4v4HkD27PD+wY9+XykyTNOWs=7FOwPpxctZw@mail.gmail.com>
 <150b1290920.276e.4d489027c0c4d0c1b1ca03a1f48f1ffb@misanthropia.org>
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 <CAHWD2rLJ0RgxcGZi=mKD=OfYYtCy1j9sfbzDKOVZuuX5EPCnJg@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <563240F7.8050000@riseup.net>

On 10/29/2015 08:19 AM, Lodewijk andré de la porte wrote:
> Truecost being some unrealistic form of cost determination? 

True cost economics is "Unrealistic"?

Surely you jest... It's difficult to measure because the variables in
/"An economic model that seeks to include the cost of negative
externalities into the pricing of goods and services.//"(1) /can be
enormous, but the ability to 'do the math' is hardly unrealistic.
/"Economics, in its current form, is a very limited science."(2)/ and
true-costing acts to de-limit it.

1 http://www.investopedia.com/terms/t/truecosteconomics.asp
2 http://www.utne.com/community/truecosteconomics.aspx

RR

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From Rayzer at riseup.net  Thu Oct 29 08:55:38 2015
From: Rayzer at riseup.net (Razer)
Date: Thu, 29 Oct 2015 08:55:38 -0700
Subject: Shiny stuff and designer societies (addenda)
In-Reply-To: <CAHWD2rLJ0RgxcGZi=mKD=OfYYtCy1j9sfbzDKOVZuuX5EPCnJg@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAHWD2rJNTxt2+=0rPkkc+323pTn-njkvJVgUE624LShu2xg1Eg@mail.gmail.com>
 <150b0aeef50.276e.4d489027c0c4d0c1b1ca03a1f48f1ffb@misanthropia.org>
 <20151028231728.1A96CC00019@frontend1.nyi.internal>
 <CAOsGNSThwv=c9K4v4HkD27PD+wY9+XykyTNOWs=7FOwPpxctZw@mail.gmail.com>
 <150b1290920.276e.4d489027c0c4d0c1b1ca03a1f48f1ffb@misanthropia.org>
 <20151029013945.C7D9FC00012@frontend1.nyi.internal>
 <CAHWD2rLJ0RgxcGZi=mKD=OfYYtCy1j9sfbzDKOVZuuX5EPCnJg@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <5632417A.3070402@riseup.net>

You use the word "I" a lot. I aim for a society where "We" is primary.

RR

On 10/29/2015 08:19 AM, Lodewijk andré de la porte wrote:
> Other than excessive coercion following wealth imbalance, and
> government unmarkets, the price I pay is the Truecost.
>
> The difference between "what I pay now", "what I pay later",


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From zen at freedbms.net  Thu Oct 29 02:41:57 2015
From: zen at freedbms.net (Zenaan Harkness)
Date: Thu, 29 Oct 2015 09:41:57 +0000
Subject: Getting embarrassing - Syria, the long haul
In-Reply-To: <56319052.7050002@gothic.com.au>
References: <CAOsGNSTZt=awx3a8pW83ruGFE8WB49c2vbu0-Bgio3YvA9mF3w@mail.gmail.com>
 <56319052.7050002@gothic.com.au>
Message-ID: <CAOsGNSQNDF_OeOxL-x849joRZ+vjt1u0NBmw3iPn+mtM-iZh4g@mail.gmail.com>

GTFOOH!

The West just don't give up - try once (1947-49), plan but not quite
try a second time (1968), try a third time (2011)! This is
firetrucking insane.

The USA is the global sociopath!

Remind me again, why the fuck we should stick up for America?

Z


On 10/29/15, goran at gothic.com.au <goran at gothic.com.au> wrote:
> Blog by Adam Curtis, THE BABY AND THE BAATH WATER
>
> http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/adamcurtis/entries/d3921cac-2144-306a-9f6e-712c0c685010
>
>
>
> On 29/10/2015 12:09, Zenaan Harkness wrote:
>> This is getting embarrassing for "the West" - the so called moral high
>> ground of the West, never existed. Even Hiroshima and Nagasaki were
>> bombed -after- Japan had surrendered, just that America insisted on
>> humiliation of unconditional surrender.
>>
>> http://russia-insider.com/en/documents-reveal-west-plotted-false-flag-justify-war-against-syria-1957/ri10799
>> "
>> In 1957, it was PG-13 “border clashes”. Now we have “government
>> chemical weapons attacks against orphans”
>> "
>>
>> I wonder where our CIA apologists are now ...
>> Z




From shelley at misanthropia.org  Thu Oct 29 09:59:28 2015
From: shelley at misanthropia.org (Shelley)
Date: Thu, 29 Oct 2015 09:59:28 -0700
Subject: Cypherpunks is broken - Welcome to Secret Admirers
In-Reply-To: <20151029162224.GA6666@antiproton.jfet.org>
References: <48b20a0d7226de7ec81e6a2eefacbec0@ownbay.net>
 <20151029162224.GA6666@antiproton.jfet.org>
Message-ID: <20151029165911.B5C60C0001E@frontend1.nyi.internal>

On October 29, 2015 9:31:10 AM "Riad S. Wahby" <rsw at jfet.org> wrote:

> Trent Secret Admirers <trent.secretadmirers at ownbay.net> wrote:
> > Secret Admirers Rules
>
> I think you left out "learn our awesome secret handshake."
>
> Anyway, can I be a member if I volunteer to make the NO NARKZ ALLOWED
> sign for the treehouse?
>

I'm only joining if it's Trent Reznor.

-S





From shelley at misanthropia.org  Thu Oct 29 10:35:33 2015
From: shelley at misanthropia.org (Shelley)
Date: Thu, 29 Oct 2015 10:35:33 -0700
Subject: Shiny stuff and designer societies (addenda)
In-Reply-To: <CAHWD2rL0jH=Kb=UiRArACMh49Wj_m+w8ZXWLtyVu8eU=Ruu+Cw@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAHWD2rJNTxt2+=0rPkkc+323pTn-njkvJVgUE624LShu2xg1Eg@mail.gmail.com>
 <150b0aeef50.276e.4d489027c0c4d0c1b1ca03a1f48f1ffb@misanthropia.org>
 <20151028231728.1A96CC00019@frontend1.nyi.internal>
 <CAOsGNSThwv=c9K4v4HkD27PD+wY9+XykyTNOWs=7FOwPpxctZw@mail.gmail.com>
 <150b1290920.276e.4d489027c0c4d0c1b1ca03a1f48f1ffb@misanthropia.org>
 <20151029013945.C7D9FC00012@frontend1.nyi.internal>
 <CAHWD2rLJ0RgxcGZi=mKD=OfYYtCy1j9sfbzDKOVZuuX5EPCnJg@mail.gmail.com>
 <5632417A.3070402@riseup.net>
 <CAHWD2rL0jH=Kb=UiRArACMh49Wj_m+w8ZXWLtyVu8eU=Ruu+Cw@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <20151029173517.02E5CC00016@frontend1.nyi.internal>

On October 29, 2015 10:24:58 AM Lodewijk andré de la porte <l at odewijk.nl> 
wrote:

> 2015-10-29 16:55 GMT+01:00 Razer <Rayzer at riseup.net>:
>
> > You use the word "I" a lot. I aim for a society where "We" is primary.
>
>
> The idea that you can force people to act in the common interest has been
> tried many times. We prefer to have freedom, nowadays. At least, I do.
>

The idea that one has to be "forced" to act in the common interest is 
disheartening, especially now.

Even worse, considering the list we're posting on.

-Shelley





From Rayzer at riseup.net  Thu Oct 29 10:43:22 2015
From: Rayzer at riseup.net (Razer)
Date: Thu, 29 Oct 2015 10:43:22 -0700
Subject: Shiny stuff and designer societies
In-Reply-To: <CAHWD2r+N79_NQPxZCs87YwNv+0bYtcjP19MhisQTw+i+Hp9OGA@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAHWD2rJNTxt2+=0rPkkc+323pTn-njkvJVgUE624LShu2xg1Eg@mail.gmail.com>
 <150b0aeef50.276e.4d489027c0c4d0c1b1ca03a1f48f1ffb@misanthropia.org>
 <20151028231728.1A96CC00019@frontend1.nyi.internal>
 <CAOsGNSThwv=c9K4v4HkD27PD+wY9+XykyTNOWs=7FOwPpxctZw@mail.gmail.com>
 <150b1290920.276e.4d489027c0c4d0c1b1ca03a1f48f1ffb@misanthropia.org>
 <20151029013945.C7D9FC00012@frontend1.nyi.internal>
 <CAHWD2rLJ0RgxcGZi=mKD=OfYYtCy1j9sfbzDKOVZuuX5EPCnJg@mail.gmail.com>
 <563240F7.8050000@riseup.net>
 <CAHWD2r+N79_NQPxZCs87YwNv+0bYtcjP19MhisQTw+i+Hp9OGA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <56325ABA.5000005@riseup.net>



On 10/29/2015 10:09 AM, Lodewijk andré de la porte wrote:
>
> It definitely is. A selective enumeration (which it will always be) is
> merely a political tool.
Your method is selective, and as I've stated elsewhere seems to revolve
around your 'needs', most of which have been impressed in you by
external forces with motives NOT friendly to your, or your specie's
continued survival.

>
> A comprehensive enumeration is impossible to assure and costly to
> produce. And who should bear the costs of such an enumeration? Society
> as a whole?

Absolutely.


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From Rayzer at riseup.net  Thu Oct 29 10:44:28 2015
From: Rayzer at riseup.net (Razer)
Date: Thu, 29 Oct 2015 10:44:28 -0700
Subject: Shiny stuff and designer societies (addenda)
In-Reply-To: <CAHWD2rL0jH=Kb=UiRArACMh49Wj_m+w8ZXWLtyVu8eU=Ruu+Cw@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAHWD2rJNTxt2+=0rPkkc+323pTn-njkvJVgUE624LShu2xg1Eg@mail.gmail.com>
 <150b0aeef50.276e.4d489027c0c4d0c1b1ca03a1f48f1ffb@misanthropia.org>
 <20151028231728.1A96CC00019@frontend1.nyi.internal>
 <CAOsGNSThwv=c9K4v4HkD27PD+wY9+XykyTNOWs=7FOwPpxctZw@mail.gmail.com>
 <150b1290920.276e.4d489027c0c4d0c1b1ca03a1f48f1ffb@misanthropia.org>
 <20151029013945.C7D9FC00012@frontend1.nyi.internal>
 <CAHWD2rLJ0RgxcGZi=mKD=OfYYtCy1j9sfbzDKOVZuuX5EPCnJg@mail.gmail.com>
 <5632417A.3070402@riseup.net>
 <CAHWD2rL0jH=Kb=UiRArACMh49Wj_m+w8ZXWLtyVu8eU=Ruu+Cw@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <56325AFC.7000707@riseup.net>



On 10/29/2015 10:18 AM, Lodewijk andré de la porte wrote:
> We prefer to have freedom, nowadays

"Freedom's just another word for nothing left to lose" ~Janis Joplin

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From shelley at misanthropia.org  Thu Oct 29 11:04:41 2015
From: shelley at misanthropia.org (Shelley)
Date: Thu, 29 Oct 2015 11:04:41 -0700
Subject: Cypherpunks is broken - Welcome to Secret Admirers
In-Reply-To: <wpfge4w84c5t06k91g3k7inu.1446141005489@email.android.com>
References: <wpfge4w84c5t06k91g3k7inu.1446141005489@email.android.com>
Message-ID: <20151029180425.65E13C0001B@frontend1.nyi.internal>

On October 29, 2015 10:55:48 AM "jd.cypherpunks at gmail.com"  wrote:

> Is this a new initative from NSA & Co (or an old one?)
> Nothing new here.
> --jd
>

This is their "kindler, gentler: now with lube!" attempt.

-S





From shelley at misanthropia.org  Thu Oct 29 11:26:55 2015
From: shelley at misanthropia.org (Shelley)
Date: Thu, 29 Oct 2015 11:26:55 -0700
Subject: Shiny stuff and designer societies (addenda)
In-Reply-To: <CAHWD2rL2hoh9-=htyYbuN1OM0qviQB+zsJzjk4Bj66naP0Rpbw@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAHWD2rJNTxt2+=0rPkkc+323pTn-njkvJVgUE624LShu2xg1Eg@mail.gmail.com>
 <150b0aeef50.276e.4d489027c0c4d0c1b1ca03a1f48f1ffb@misanthropia.org>
 <20151028231728.1A96CC00019@frontend1.nyi.internal>
 <CAOsGNSThwv=c9K4v4HkD27PD+wY9+XykyTNOWs=7FOwPpxctZw@mail.gmail.com>
 <150b1290920.276e.4d489027c0c4d0c1b1ca03a1f48f1ffb@misanthropia.org>
 <20151029013945.C7D9FC00012@frontend1.nyi.internal>
 <CAHWD2rLJ0RgxcGZi=mKD=OfYYtCy1j9sfbzDKOVZuuX5EPCnJg@mail.gmail.com>
 <5632417A.3070402@riseup.net>
 <CAHWD2rL0jH=Kb=UiRArACMh49Wj_m+w8ZXWLtyVu8eU=Ruu+Cw@mail.gmail.com>
 <20151029173517.02E5CC00016@frontend1.nyi.internal>
 <CAHWD2rL2hoh9-=htyYbuN1OM0qviQB+zsJzjk4Bj66naP0Rpbw@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <20151029182639.A6B60C00013@frontend1.nyi.internal>

On October 29, 2015 11:17:05 AM Lodewijk andré de la porte <l at odewijk.nl> 
wrote:
>
> I'm sorry, but there's only so much one will do with disregard of self.
>
That speaks volumes of your character.

> I feel like this discussion has starved. There's a distinct lack of depth 
> and logic,

Agreed 100%

>Mostly it's the powerless contemplating how fair it would be if they weren't.

Good, let it flow through you!  Keep thinking that and carry on.  Nothing 
to see here.

-S





From rsw at jfet.org  Thu Oct 29 09:22:24 2015
From: rsw at jfet.org (Riad S. Wahby)
Date: Thu, 29 Oct 2015 12:22:24 -0400
Subject: Cypherpunks is broken - Welcome to Secret Admirers
In-Reply-To: <48b20a0d7226de7ec81e6a2eefacbec0@ownbay.net>
References: <48b20a0d7226de7ec81e6a2eefacbec0@ownbay.net>
Message-ID: <20151029162224.GA6666@antiproton.jfet.org>

Trent Secret Admirers <trent.secretadmirers at ownbay.net> wrote:
> Secret Admirers Rules

I think you left out "learn our awesome secret handshake."

Anyway, can I be a member if I volunteer to make the NO NARKZ ALLOWED
sign for the treehouse?

-=rsw



From hettinga at gmail.com  Thu Oct 29 09:33:41 2015
From: hettinga at gmail.com (Robert Hettinga)
Date: Thu, 29 Oct 2015 12:33:41 -0400
Subject: Cypherpunks is broken - Welcome to Secret Admirers
In-Reply-To: <20151029162224.GA6666@antiproton.jfet.org>
References: <48b20a0d7226de7ec81e6a2eefacbec0@ownbay.net> <20151029162224.GA6666@antiproton.jfet.org>
Message-ID: <F9EB7708-0A77-4E37-A5E1-9950A49331A3@gmail.com>


> On Oct 29, 2015, at 12:22 PM, Riad S. Wahby <rsw at jfet.org> wrote:
> 
>> Secret Admirers

Is not new…

Nothing really is.

Cheers,
RAH





From Rayzer at riseup.net  Thu Oct 29 12:48:07 2015
From: Rayzer at riseup.net (Razer)
Date: Thu, 29 Oct 2015 12:48:07 -0700
Subject: Shiny stuff and designer societies
In-Reply-To: <CAHWD2r+Yx8OVC-4SZmAiS5DdjOAyE=rf+6HiM4nFyLF3DDfiFA@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAHWD2rJNTxt2+=0rPkkc+323pTn-njkvJVgUE624LShu2xg1Eg@mail.gmail.com>
 <150b0aeef50.276e.4d489027c0c4d0c1b1ca03a1f48f1ffb@misanthropia.org>
 <20151028231728.1A96CC00019@frontend1.nyi.internal>
 <CAOsGNSThwv=c9K4v4HkD27PD+wY9+XykyTNOWs=7FOwPpxctZw@mail.gmail.com>
 <150b1290920.276e.4d489027c0c4d0c1b1ca03a1f48f1ffb@misanthropia.org>
 <20151029013945.C7D9FC00012@frontend1.nyi.internal>
 <CAHWD2rLJ0RgxcGZi=mKD=OfYYtCy1j9sfbzDKOVZuuX5EPCnJg@mail.gmail.com>
 <563240F7.8050000@riseup.net>
 <CAHWD2r+N79_NQPxZCs87YwNv+0bYtcjP19MhisQTw+i+Hp9OGA@mail.gmail.com>
 <56325ABA.5000005@riseup.net>
 <CAHWD2r+Yx8OVC-4SZmAiS5DdjOAyE=rf+6HiM4nFyLF3DDfiFA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <563277F7.9040803@riseup.net>



On 10/29/2015 11:07 AM, Lodewijk andré de la porte wrote:
> Money models reality

Money, as currently practiced, is a collective delusion with little
basis in any reality.

Tell me how indexes of derivatives of futures has ANYTHING to do with
the value of money besides controlling it for the benefit of a select few?

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From Rayzer at riseup.net  Thu Oct 29 12:54:30 2015
From: Rayzer at riseup.net (Razer)
Date: Thu, 29 Oct 2015 12:54:30 -0700
Subject: Cypherpunks is broken - Welcome to Secret Admirers
In-Reply-To: <E1ZrrSn-00079a-IM@elasmtp-curtail.atl.sa.earthlink.net>
References: <48b20a0d7226de7ec81e6a2eefacbec0@ownbay.net>
 <20151029162224.GA6666@antiproton.jfet.org>
 <20151029165911.B5C60C0001E@frontend1.nyi.internal>
 <CAHWD2rJZkULZ8fJXbjT_jov0WHfihT0LRYXjAH+QJH-tQH618Q@mail.gmail.com>
 <E1ZrrSn-00079a-IM@elasmtp-curtail.atl.sa.earthlink.net>
Message-ID: <56327976.20403@riseup.net>



On 10/29/2015 10:58 AM, John Young channels Neal Cassidy (or his BF
Allen Ginsberg):
> A small number of geezers continue to write
> code, that is hire kids to do that, but mostly consult to crypto
> cretinous corporations, suckle on NGO-tit extortions, deliver
> commodious farts on the speaker circuit, the best and brightest
> take long naps, buy weekly, monthly, yearly lap dances, search
> Google for their names, spit and shit blood, shed hair and flesh,
> burst into episodes of cackling obscure hashes in elliptic
> circles. Eyes and minds dim and flicker, maws whimper,
> broken teeth and code pukes down shirt fronts, dapper
> David Kahn dances into darkening visions of splendid
> failure, crooning No Such Agency to the solo female
> cpunk whose name is legend.


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From Rayzer at riseup.net  Thu Oct 29 13:10:34 2015
From: Rayzer at riseup.net (Razer)
Date: Thu, 29 Oct 2015 13:10:34 -0700
Subject: The Economist checks in on "The promise of the blockchain"
Message-ID: <56327D3A.9090305@riseup.net>


The Economist
The promise of the blockchain

The trust machine

The technology behind bitcoin could transform how the economy works

Oct 31st 2015 | From the print edition

BITCOIN has a bad reputation. The decentralised digital cryptocurrency,
powered by a vast computer network, is notorious for the wild
fluctuations in its value, the zeal of its supporters and its degenerate
uses, such as extortion, buying drugs and hiring hitmen in the online
bazaars of the “dark net”.

This is unfair. The value of a bitcoin has been pretty stable, at around
$250, for most of this year. Among regulators and financial
institutions, scepticism has given way to enthusiasm (the European Union
recently recognised it as a currency). But most unfair of all is that
bitcoin’s shady image causes people to overlook the extraordinary
potential of the “blockchain”, the technology that underpins it. This
innovation carries a significance stretching far beyond cryptocurrency.
The blockchain lets people who have no particular confidence in each
other collaborate without having to go through a neutral central
authority. Simply put, it is a machine for creating trust.

The blockchain food chain

To understand the power of blockchain systems, and the things they can
do, it is important to distinguish between three things that are
commonly muddled up, namely the bitcoin currency, the specific
blockchain that underpins it and the idea of blockchains in general. A
helpful analogy is with Napster, the pioneering but illegal
“peer-to-peer” file-sharing service that went on line in 1999, providing
free access to millions of music tracks. Napster itself was swiftly shut
down, but it inspired a host of other peer-to-peer services. Many of
these were also used for pirating music and films. Yet despite its
dubious origins, peer-to-peer technology found legitimate uses, powering
internet startups such as Skype (for telephony) and Spotify (for music
streaming)—and also, as it happens, bitcoin.

The blockchain is an even more potent technology. In essence it is a
shared, trusted, public ledger that everyone can inspect, but which no
single user controls. The participants in a blockchain system
collectively keep the ledger up to date: it can be amended only
according to strict rules and by general agreement. Bitcoin’s blockchain
ledger prevents double-spending and keeps track of transactions
continuously. It is what makes possible a currency without a central bank.

Blockchains are also the latest example of the unexpected fruits of
cryptography. Mathematical scrambling is used to boil down an original
piece of information into a code, known as a hash. Any attempt to tamper
with any part of the blockchain is apparent immediately—because the new
hash will not match the old ones. In this way a science that keeps
information secret (vital for encrypting messages and online shopping
and banking) is, paradoxically, also a tool for open dealing.

Bitcoin itself may never be more than a curiosity. However blockchains
have a host of other uses because they meet the need for a trustworthy
record, something vital for transactions of every sort. Dozens of
startups now hope to capitalise on the blockchain technology, either by
doing clever things with the bitcoin blockchain or by creating new
blockchains of their own (see article).

One idea, for example, is to make cheap, tamper-proof public
databases—land registries, say, (Honduras and Greece are interested); or
registers of the ownership of luxury goods or works of art. Documents
can be notarised by embedding information about them into a public
blockchain—and you will no longer need a notary to vouch for them.
Financial-services firms are contemplating using blockchains as a record
of who owns what instead of having a series of internal ledgers. A
trusted private ledger removes the need for reconciling each transaction
with a counterparty, it is fast and it minimises errors. Santander
reckons that it could save banks up to $20 billion a year by 2022.
Twenty-five banks have just joined a blockchain startup, called R3 CEV,
to develop common standards, and NASDAQ is about to start using the
technology to record trading in securities of private companies.

These new blockchains need not work in exactly the way that bitcoin’s
does. Many of them could tweak its model by, for example, finding
alternatives to its energy-intensive “mining” process, which pays
participants newly minted bitcoins in return for providing the computing
power needed to maintain the ledger. A group of vetted participants
within an industry might instead agree to join a private blockchain,
say, that needs less security. Blockchains can also implement business
rules, such as transactions that take place only if two or more parties
endorse them, or if another transaction has been completed first. As
with Napster and peer-to-peer technology, a clever idea is being
modified and improved. In the process, it is fast throwing off its
reputation for shadiness.

New chains on the block

The spread of blockchains is bad for anyone in the “trust business”—the
centralised institutions and bureaucracies, such as banks, clearing
houses and government authorities that are deemed sufficiently
trustworthy to handle transactions. Even as some banks and governments
explore the use of this new technology, others will surely fight it. But
given the decline in trust in governments and banks in recent years, a
way to create more scrutiny and transparency could be no bad thing.

Drawing up regulations for blockchains at this early stage would be a
mistake: the history of peer-to-peer technology suggests that it is
likely to be several years before the technology’s full potential
becomes clear. In the meantime regulators should stay their hands, or
find ways to accommodate new approaches within existing frameworks,
rather than risk stifling a fast-evolving idea with overly prescriptive
rules.

The notion of shared public ledgers may not sound revolutionary or sexy.
Neither did double-entry book-keeping or joint-stock companies. Yet,
like them, the blockchain is an apparently mundane process that has the
potential to transform how people and businesses co-operate. Bitcoin
fanatics are enthralled by the libertarian ideal of a pure, digital
currency beyond the reach of any central bank. The real innovation is
not the digital coins themselves, but the trust machine that mints
them—and which promises much more besides.

http://www.economist.com/node/21677198/print


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From jya at pipeline.com  Thu Oct 29 10:58:06 2015
From: jya at pipeline.com (John Young)
Date: Thu, 29 Oct 2015 13:58:06 -0400
Subject: Cypherpunks is broken - Welcome to Secret Admirers
In-Reply-To: <CAHWD2rJZkULZ8fJXbjT_jov0WHfihT0LRYXjAH+QJH-tQH618Q@mail.g
 mail.com>
References: <48b20a0d7226de7ec81e6a2eefacbec0@ownbay.net>
 <20151029162224.GA6666@antiproton.jfet.org>
 <20151029165911.B5C60C0001E@frontend1.nyi.internal>
 <CAHWD2rJZkULZ8fJXbjT_jov0WHfihT0LRYXjAH+QJH-tQH618Q@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <E1ZrrSn-00079a-IM@elasmtp-curtail.atl.sa.earthlink.net>

Cypherpunks has produced a slew of offsprings who are confident
the parents have been surpassed, are feeble, ghosts of their once
own offsprings of offsprings of offsprings. Some have become
mules unable to offspring so bray at one another neuteredly, some
tote-packing jackasses for secretkeepers, some little horses in a
geek carnival DEFCON, one a jester performing for food, bed
and hookup in a banana republic's UK squat, another raising wild
pussies on a hilltop armed to the gizzard against PETA warriors,
several offshore heroined and drunk in hot tubs of rotgut financial
shenanigans, others on a mechanical island harassed by EU
revenuers and algorithmic mermaids, quite a few incarcerating
themselves in courtrooms pursuing phantasms of conquering
an NSA long out of date by new improved GQNSAFSB, half a
dozen are dead, dying, diseased or headphoned heads mounted
on mathematics college entablatures. One is a high official
in DoD cybercommand-panic to the max, a twin doing the
same for PRC. A small number of geezers continue to write
code, that is hire kids to do that, but mostly consult to crypto
cretinous corporations, suckle on NGO-tit extortions, deliver
commodious farts on the speaker circuit, the best and brightest
take long naps, buy weekly, monthly, yearly lap dances, search
Google for their names, spit and shit blood, shed hair and flesh,
burst into episodes of cackling obscure hashes in elliptic
circles. Eyes and minds dim and flicker, maws whimper,
broken teeth and code pukes down shirt fronts, dapper
David Kahn dances into darkening visions of splendid
failure, crooning No Such Agency to the solo female
cpunk whose name is legend.

At 01:21 PM 10/29/2015, you wrote:
>Good luck!





From goran at gothic.com.au  Wed Oct 28 20:19:46 2015
From: goran at gothic.com.au (goran at gothic.com.au)
Date: Thu, 29 Oct 2015 14:19:46 +1100
Subject: Getting embarrassing - Syria, the long haul
In-Reply-To: <CAOsGNSTZt=awx3a8pW83ruGFE8WB49c2vbu0-Bgio3YvA9mF3w@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAOsGNSTZt=awx3a8pW83ruGFE8WB49c2vbu0-Bgio3YvA9mF3w@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <56319052.7050002@gothic.com.au>

Blog by Adam Curtis, THE BABY AND THE BAATH WATER

http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/adamcurtis/entries/d3921cac-2144-306a-9f6e-712c0c685010



On 29/10/2015 12:09, Zenaan Harkness wrote:
> This is getting embarrassing for "the West" - the so called moral high
> ground of the West, never existed. Even Hiroshima and Nagasaki were
> bombed -after- Japan had surrendered, just that America insisted on
> humiliation of unconditional surrender.
> 
> http://russia-insider.com/en/documents-reveal-west-plotted-false-flag-justify-war-against-syria-1957/ri10799
> "
> In 1957, it was PG-13 “border clashes”. Now we have “government
> chemical weapons attacks against orphans”
> "
> 
> I wonder where our CIA apologists are now ...
> Z
> 
> 




From coderman at gmail.com  Thu Oct 29 14:29:00 2015
From: coderman at gmail.com (coderman)
Date: Thu, 29 Oct 2015 14:29:00 -0700
Subject: Fwd: [tor-dev] Tor Messenger Beta: Chat over Tor, Easily
In-Reply-To: <20151029211200.GA2253@riseup.net>
References: <20151029211200.GA2253@riseup.net>
Message-ID: <CAJVRA1QwDiKnx33BxFHv+cjrESMZGXXwiPX-TtkXG_cwwYyZWA@mail.gmail.com>

---------- Forwarded message ----------
From: Sukhbir Singh <azadi at riseup.net>
Date: Thu, 29 Oct 2015 17:12:00 -0400
Subject: [tor-dev] Tor Messenger Beta: Chat over Tor, Easily

Hi,

Today we are releasing a new, beta version of Tor Messenger, based on
Instantbird [0], an instant messaging client developed in the Mozilla
community.

* What is it?

Tor Messenger is a cross-platform chat program that aims to be secure by
default and sends all of its traffic over Tor.  It supports a wide variety of
transport networks, including Jabber (XMPP), IRC, Google Talk, Facebook Chat,
Twitter, Yahoo, and others; enables Off-the-Record (OTR) Messaging [1]
automatically; and has an easy-to-use graphical user interface localized into
multiple languages.

* What it isn't...

Tor Messenger builds on the networks you are familiar with, so that you can
continue communicating in a way your contacts are willing and able to do. This
has traditionally been in a client-server model, meaning that your metadata
(specifically the relationships between contacts) can be logged by the server.
However, your route to the server will be hidden because you are communicating
over Tor.

We are also excited about systems like Pond [2] and Ricochet [3], which try to
solve this problem, and would encourage you to look at their designs and use
them too.

* Why Instantbird?

We considered a number of messaging clients: Pidgin, Adam Langley's
xmpp-client, and Instantbird. Instantbird was the pragmatic choice -- its
transport protocols are written in a memory-safe language (JavaScript); it has
a graphical user interface and already supports many natural languages; and
it's a XUL application, which means we can leverage both the code (Tor
Launcher) and in-house expertise that the Tor Project has developed working on
Tor Browser with Firefox. It also has an active and vibrant software developer
community that has been very responsive and understanding of our needs. The
main feature it lacked was OTR support, which we have implemented [4] and hope
to upstream to the main Instantbird repository for the benefit of all
Instantbird (and Thunderbird) users.

* Current Status

Today we are releasing a beta version with which we hope to gain both
usability and security related feedback. There have been three previous alpha
releases to the mailing lists that have already helped smooth out some of the
rougher edges.

* Downloads

Linux (32-bit)
    https://dist.torproject.org/tormessenger/0.1.0b2/tor-messenger-linux32-0.1.0b2_en-US.tar.xz

Linux (64-bit)
    https://dist.torproject.org/tormessenger/0.1.0b2/tor-messenger-linux64-0.1.0b2_en-US.tar.xz

Windows
    https://dist.torproject.org/tormessenger/0.1.0b2/tormessenger-install-0.1.0b2_en-US.exe

OS X
    https://dist.torproject.org/tormessenger/0.1.0b2/TorMessenger-0.1.0b2-osx64_en-US.dmg

sha256sums
    https://dist.torproject.org/tormessenger/0.1.0b2/sha256sums.txt
    https://dist.torproject.org/tormessenger/0.1.0b2/sha256sums.txt.asc

The sha256sums.txt file containing hashes of the bundles is signed with the
key 0x6887935AB297B391 (fingerprint: 3A0B 3D84 3708 9613 6B84  5E82 6887 935A
B297 B391).

* Instructions

- On Linux, extract the bundle(s) and then run: ./start-tor-messenger.desktop
- On OS X, copy the Tor Messenger application from the disk image to your
  local disk before running it.

On all platforms, Tor Messenger sets the profile folder for
Firefox/Instantbird to the installation directory.

- Note that as a policy, unencrypted one-to-one conversations are not allowed
  and your messages will not be transmitted if the person you are talking with
  does not have an OTR-enabled client. You can disable this option in the
  preferences to allow unencrypted communication but doing so is not
  recommended.

* Source Code

We are doing automated builds [5] of Tor Messenger for all platforms.

The Linux builds are reproducible: anyone who builds Tor Messenger for Linux
should have byte-for-byte identical binaries compared with other builds from a
given source. You can build it yourself [6] and let us know if you encounter
any problems or cannot match our build. The Windows and OS X builds are not
completely reproducible yet but we are working on it [7].

* What's to Come

Our current focus is security, robustness and user experience. We will be
fixing bugs and releasing updates as appropriate, and in the future, we plan
on pairing releases with Mozilla's Extended Support Release (ESR) cycle. We
have some ideas on where to take Tor Messenger but we would like to hear what
you have to say. Some possibilities include:

- Reproducible builds for Windows and OS X (#10942)
- Sandboxing (#10943)
- Automatic updates (#14388)
- Improved Tor support (#10950)
- OTR over Twitter DMs (#13312)
- Produce (and distribute) internationalized builds (#10945)
- Secure multi-party communication (np1sec) [8]
- Encrypted file-transfers
- Usability study

* How To Help

Give it a try and provide feedback, requests, and file bugs [9] (choose the
"Tor Messenger" component). If you are a developer, help us close all our
tickets [10] or help us review our design doc [11]. As always, we are idling
on IRC in #tor-dev (OFTC) (nicks: arlolra; boklm; sukhe) and subscribed to the
tor-talk/dev mailing lists.

Please note that this release is for users who would like to help us with
testing the product but at the same time who also understand the risks
involved in using beta software.

Thanks and we hope you enjoy Tor Messenger!

[0] - http://instantbird.com
[1] - https://otr.cypherpunks.ca
[2] - https://pond.imperialviolet.org
[3] - https://ricochet.im
[4] - https://github.com/arlolra/ctypes-otr
[5] - https://gitweb.torproject.org/tor-messenger-build.git
[6] - https://gitweb.torproject.org/tor-messenger-build.git/tree/README
[7] - https://trac.torproject.org/projects/tor/ticket/10942
[8] - https://github.com/equalitie/np1sec
[9] - https://trac.torproject.org/projects/tor/newticket
[10] - https://trac.torproject.org/projects/tor/query?status=!closed&component=Tor+Messenger
[11] - https://trac.torproject.org/projects/tor/wiki/doc/TorMessenger/DesignDoc
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From dan at geer.org  Thu Oct 29 11:41:18 2015
From: dan at geer.org (dan at geer.org)
Date: Thu, 29 Oct 2015 14:41:18 -0400
Subject: Ethereum and Auger
In-Reply-To: Your message of "Tue, 27 Oct 2015 19:19:13 -0000."
 <1836992162.2024877.1445973553623.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <20151029184118.5F2DAA06DCD@palinka.tinho.net>

There is a considerable body of academic work on prediction markets,
and I recommend reading it.  Inter alia, intentionally moving such
a market in a stupid direction to further some sort of fraud or to
act out of spite is entirely possible so long as you have an
open-ended amount of money to lose.

But for those still hoping to dismiss prediction markets, the
Dodd-Frank Act, in provision 7 USC section 7a-2(c)(5)(c)(i), gave
the CFTC the power to ban certain kinds of event contracts.  This
includes illegal activities, gaming, war, and terrorism.  The CFTC
has used that power to forbid NADEX, a regulated market, from
offering event contracts for elections.  The CFTC gave several
reasons for banning the event contracts, including that multiple
states had defined placing money on elections to be gambling and
that the contracts would not serve any economic purpose such as
allowing participants to hedge against an outcome.

Libertarians who live in the real world vote Republican,

--dan




From coderman at gmail.com  Thu Oct 29 15:22:25 2015
From: coderman at gmail.com (coderman)
Date: Thu, 29 Oct 2015 15:22:25 -0700
Subject: FOIPA adventures
In-Reply-To: <CAJVRA1TtoL+tz0XYxNPSV7oE7HBVWORZ65Og6hrREQzreN6ozw@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAJVRA1SaJpNaPQx=s_7VVM==ony2sH0aUG3w11cjNX6escSm8w@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAJVRA1TUfu40206TOzK2kBsgCvbgBYYXmyKZ3E5n4KQuoEtZyg@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAJVRA1QtgMky_hsDLsmFwiXcxE528bZaDOQsjTqqj4tR-dbGBQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAJVRA1RwoyoRs-REWnhGd8cHZM6EJvcziTUDXbU5A6TMigOT6A@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAJVRA1Rwaq1fvE8p-s1JwOANvMc7X2E75bx5eNd4KGJapt6Nuw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAJVRA1TU5Frg3WOJk+3ZFEH0QAFya5xZnwzCfCUE+hL1NhKUFg@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAJVRA1Q0SDo9Fj3KAU9vA3cxR2=7pwcdpO3Ex=yi6g2WtRAg6A@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAJVRA1Srrb08Z9XvG+rYq30p2E_MnhJA6ynOLpdT--6gCvwiyQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAJVRA1RXD2dr16TJZK-MPcJm7nR0Ov=Dp9i5Anf5hKNFs2hq7w@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAJVRA1S97DSPk0NBjgon1LS4HHuGtq_03dqFppUnWq+t61a41A@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAJVRA1SyW_wOUcFUo6STbiePO8HmLV9LgF-PCgugvuPRD_tKWA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAJVRA1QaYYF=hoSQiSd4SHNUj-W6hjEJDhy1KxR9CfFKDgNkew@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAJVRA1TvZxj_qz6_xK8h13LOD-5mE6iNvT9dnThf4ue0_=kY3Q@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAJVRA1RbeuzfiVAOqaZ15p8kr67jxcBoNMOrJkt3K86_=FuVXw@mail.gmail.com>
 <000701d0bcb7$94118e80$bc34ab80$@co.uk>
 <CAJVRA1SE1O-PqmkV8vX=q5j_xs-YFOpH=OLxSvwaT8BBvadQmA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAJVRA1TwM3Re8Tz6NPxp_CeY5C4K3QN+Ceo5VbW3JKMbBABv9g@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAJVRA1SbqTrEbUJ84rLFWdu6+psY5uUzu-ZsVfyUwoSaMRcGdQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAJVRA1RDN6HsLCbF_wsK+zARO9PaEn80R9FSGnWgGVF4XkbbpQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAJVRA1Rt2gKvgnM0MCiqf2Q4vJ8wWxm=KabcQXeBYSqn4zRvKg@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAJVRA1Q95CKTVahkfQeH_pwaGDcgJ-4OL2=9o5ckQrZLG8HeUA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAJVRA1SyX65OE9-7DQ1hP1fGWHxY8rvCqFXhKPu4Oy4o6wt0gg@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAJVRA1SgoLtLFS9AFf_d043AGDVbKp4djDtijDR+zfCRJ8twTA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAJVRA1SvN5ML7TQnOUqz78PhYv8aefz=k8-4fPOwv2uHUVF3_w@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAJVRA1Ry2EV7qaFHmZJ9cjm8-waCNBCzenO9BpqW+YKChEHX7w@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAJVRA1S5juVmB6Ouy0JWbdeJdj9yz0W6tKQDY2q_zi+AC461EA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAJVRA1SYO0ia4VGLwFwZFowkD75YR61MC1TNc1wzHbZtmhy1_w@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAJVRA1SqWMVy6m6KuiJWQQG_6XPWoB+86-p45PWKvfn8wg_jeA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAJVRA1RWaiCZtig6+Seyk-UN9M3h9+2iZ0Otnqb6n=AFcRAeRw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAJVRA1QzHeh=rs0hRf0sugLZdbXvAhK+2Yte5Tbt_Tnv5Tf8mg@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAJVRA1SdAW+36Z8yYTdSFTtz8S8U5aiELv5NiuXg5Rg-vaFYew@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAJVRA1Svk488ax6sd4oy52rfM_u_E1EuzhUAQt6cQ2Jy5yRx5g@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAJVRA1S4=X5P6hKnZu224GjseL5ws1vRm6Gk4gJ+DG06oLjaDA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAJVRA1RsgoKvADCcRz76vj1xjT+EQDB96tw7-sgg_pf+BGzA=A@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAJVRA1TOMYnBh0-B=uh6n2HsOsFdY+SKVG-=XqKi6WPNro++PA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAJVRA1Qao1qE2kBSbb_V5NPQ7PF--VFnYQpc=08wY2_ZURz4hg@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAJVRA1S45TEydVoKDxW9SfC0DKcSdxB_HfjrvcZQjU5uymfFOQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAD2Ti29j9qCnTCBEpaTj9B2NdWpLQoAiT02QzbitiART9tFg6A@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAJVRA1SAOUWi485z=_VRnhLu=EL1c8rVQOvdFz09-P4TjbLHww@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAJVRA1T0E3Lny4YPOjvvCtpSZOmx5dim+nw7e_Zzz-PYXNUAjg@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAJVRA1TtoL+tz0XYxNPSV7oE7HBVWORZ65Og6hrREQzreN6ozw@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAJVRA1TbbVJ-88nHq0GKMhS5Z3GQ+=jCqv2E49FS=4L2+xQeFg@mail.gmail.com>

the Department of Homeland Security operates 163 SCIFs with a total
400,000 sq. feet of work area.

https://www.muckrock.com/foi/united-states-of-america-10/activeareadenied-21346/

(ignore the mis-chan :)




From admin at pilobilus.net  Thu Oct 29 12:23:52 2015
From: admin at pilobilus.net (Steve Kinney)
Date: Thu, 29 Oct 2015 15:23:52 -0400
Subject: Cypherpunks is broken - Welcome to Secret Admirers
In-Reply-To: <wpfge4w84c5t06k91g3k7inu.1446141005489@email.android.com>
References: <wpfge4w84c5t06k91g3k7inu.1446141005489@email.android.com>
Message-ID: <56327248.5040007@pilobilus.net>

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1

On 10/29/2015 01:50 PM, jd.cypherpunks at gmail.com wrote:
> Is this a new initative from NSA & Co (or an old one?) Nothing
> new here. --jd
> 
> 
> -------- Ursprüngliche Nachricht -------- Von: Trent Secret
> Admirers <trent.secretadmirers at ownbay.net> Datum: 29.10.2015
> 16:41 (GMT+01:00) An: Cypherpunks <cypherpunks at cpunks.org> 
> Betreff: Cypherpunks is broken - Welcome to Secret Admirers


I like the Cryptonomicon reference, it gives the whole thing a
'homey' atmosphere. Very disarming.

:o)



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From Rayzer at riseup.net  Thu Oct 29 15:24:52 2015
From: Rayzer at riseup.net (Razer)
Date: Thu, 29 Oct 2015 15:24:52 -0700
Subject: Fwd: [tor-dev] Tor Messenger Beta: Chat over Tor, Easily
In-Reply-To: <CAJVRA1QwDiKnx33BxFHv+cjrESMZGXXwiPX-TtkXG_cwwYyZWA@mail.gmail.com>
References: <20151029211200.GA2253@riseup.net>
 <CAJVRA1QwDiKnx33BxFHv+cjrESMZGXXwiPX-TtkXG_cwwYyZWA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <56329CB4.9070507@riseup.net>



On 10/29/2015 02:29 PM, coderman wrote:
> ---------- Forwarded message ----------
> From: Sukhbir Singh <azadi at riseup.net>
> Date: Thu, 29 Oct 2015 17:12:00 -0400
> Subject: [tor-dev] Tor Messenger Beta: Chat over Tor, Easily
>
> Hi,
>
> Today we are releasing a new, beta version of Tor Messenger, based on
> Instantbird [0], an instant messaging client developed in the Mozilla
> community.

Unlike InstantBird on which it appears to be based, it manages to tackle
the Twitter Security question that occurs when using tor. I was having
no luck with Instantbird. Have yet to check anything besides twitter but
so far so good.

RR

>
> * What is it?
>
> Tor Messenger is a cross-platform chat program that aims to be secure by
> default and sends all of its traffic over Tor.  It supports a wide variety of
> transport networks, including Jabber (XMPP), IRC, Google Talk, Facebook Chat,
> Twitter, Yahoo, and others; enables Off-the-Record (OTR) Messaging [1]
> automatically; and has an easy-to-use graphical user interface localized into
> multiple languages.
>
> * What it isn't...
>
> Tor Messenger builds on the networks you are familiar with, so that you can
> continue communicating in a way your contacts are willing and able to do. This
> has traditionally been in a client-server model, meaning that your metadata
> (specifically the relationships between contacts) can be logged by the server.
> However, your route to the server will be hidden because you are communicating
> over Tor.
>
> We are also excited about systems like Pond [2] and Ricochet [3], which try to
> solve this problem, and would encourage you to look at their designs and use
> them too.
>
> * Why Instantbird?
>
> We considered a number of messaging clients: Pidgin, Adam Langley's
> xmpp-client, and Instantbird. Instantbird was the pragmatic choice -- its
> transport protocols are written in a memory-safe language (JavaScript); it has
> a graphical user interface and already supports many natural languages; and
> it's a XUL application, which means we can leverage both the code (Tor
> Launcher) and in-house expertise that the Tor Project has developed working on
> Tor Browser with Firefox. It also has an active and vibrant software developer
> community that has been very responsive and understanding of our needs. The
> main feature it lacked was OTR support, which we have implemented [4] and hope
> to upstream to the main Instantbird repository for the benefit of all
> Instantbird (and Thunderbird) users.
>
> * Current Status
>
> Today we are releasing a beta version with which we hope to gain both
> usability and security related feedback. There have been three previous alpha
> releases to the mailing lists that have already helped smooth out some of the
> rougher edges.
>
> * Downloads
>
> Linux (32-bit)
>     https://dist.torproject.org/tormessenger/0.1.0b2/tor-messenger-linux32-0.1.0b2_en-US.tar.xz
>
> Linux (64-bit)
>     https://dist.torproject.org/tormessenger/0.1.0b2/tor-messenger-linux64-0.1.0b2_en-US.tar.xz
>
> Windows
>     https://dist.torproject.org/tormessenger/0.1.0b2/tormessenger-install-0.1.0b2_en-US.exe
>
> OS X
>     https://dist.torproject.org/tormessenger/0.1.0b2/TorMessenger-0.1.0b2-osx64_en-US.dmg
>
> sha256sums
>     https://dist.torproject.org/tormessenger/0.1.0b2/sha256sums.txt
>     https://dist.torproject.org/tormessenger/0.1.0b2/sha256sums.txt.asc
>
> The sha256sums.txt file containing hashes of the bundles is signed with the
> key 0x6887935AB297B391 (fingerprint: 3A0B 3D84 3708 9613 6B84  5E82 6887 935A
> B297 B391).
>
> * Instructions
>
> - On Linux, extract the bundle(s) and then run: ./start-tor-messenger.desktop
> - On OS X, copy the Tor Messenger application from the disk image to your
>   local disk before running it.
>
> On all platforms, Tor Messenger sets the profile folder for
> Firefox/Instantbird to the installation directory.
>
> - Note that as a policy, unencrypted one-to-one conversations are not allowed
>   and your messages will not be transmitted if the person you are talking with
>   does not have an OTR-enabled client. You can disable this option in the
>   preferences to allow unencrypted communication but doing so is not
>   recommended.
>
> * Source Code
>
> We are doing automated builds [5] of Tor Messenger for all platforms.
>
> The Linux builds are reproducible: anyone who builds Tor Messenger for Linux
> should have byte-for-byte identical binaries compared with other builds from a
> given source. You can build it yourself [6] and let us know if you encounter
> any problems or cannot match our build. The Windows and OS X builds are not
> completely reproducible yet but we are working on it [7].
>
> * What's to Come
>
> Our current focus is security, robustness and user experience. We will be
> fixing bugs and releasing updates as appropriate, and in the future, we plan
> on pairing releases with Mozilla's Extended Support Release (ESR) cycle. We
> have some ideas on where to take Tor Messenger but we would like to hear what
> you have to say. Some possibilities include:
>
> - Reproducible builds for Windows and OS X (#10942)
> - Sandboxing (#10943)
> - Automatic updates (#14388)
> - Improved Tor support (#10950)
> - OTR over Twitter DMs (#13312)
> - Produce (and distribute) internationalized builds (#10945)
> - Secure multi-party communication (np1sec) [8]
> - Encrypted file-transfers
> - Usability study
>
> * How To Help
>
> Give it a try and provide feedback, requests, and file bugs [9] (choose the
> "Tor Messenger" component). If you are a developer, help us close all our
> tickets [10] or help us review our design doc [11]. As always, we are idling
> on IRC in #tor-dev (OFTC) (nicks: arlolra; boklm; sukhe) and subscribed to the
> tor-talk/dev mailing lists.
>
> Please note that this release is for users who would like to help us with
> testing the product but at the same time who also understand the risks
> involved in using beta software.
>
> Thanks and we hope you enjoy Tor Messenger!
>
> [0] - http://instantbird.com
> [1] - https://otr.cypherpunks.ca
> [2] - https://pond.imperialviolet.org
> [3] - https://ricochet.im
> [4] - https://github.com/arlolra/ctypes-otr
> [5] - https://gitweb.torproject.org/tor-messenger-build.git
> [6] - https://gitweb.torproject.org/tor-messenger-build.git/tree/README
> [7] - https://trac.torproject.org/projects/tor/ticket/10942
> [8] - https://github.com/equalitie/np1sec
> [9] - https://trac.torproject.org/projects/tor/newticket
> [10] - https://trac.torproject.org/projects/tor/query?status=!closed&component=Tor+Messenger
> [11] - https://trac.torproject.org/projects/tor/wiki/doc/TorMessenger/DesignDoc


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From trent.secretadmirers at ownbay.net  Thu Oct 29 08:41:00 2015
From: trent.secretadmirers at ownbay.net (Trent Secret Admirers)
Date: Thu, 29 Oct 2015 15:41:00 +0000
Subject: Cypherpunks is broken - Welcome to Secret Admirers
Message-ID: <48b20a0d7226de7ec81e6a2eefacbec0@ownbay.net>

TL;DR, apply here: http://oestla3j22reypzj.onion/account/index/applyform

It's been more than 20 years since the the Cypherpunk's manifesto was
published and we believe it's more important today than it was back 
then.
And like the manifesto, we believe in action more than in talk.

Just as software and hardware can be developed for surveillance 
purposes,
so can it be for better privacy and a truly free cyberspace. Technology
itself is neutral, we choose what to build with it. The reason so little
has been achieved lately is because we lost track of a fundamental point
from the manifesto:

     Cypherpunks write code. We know that someone has to write software 
to
     defend privacy, and since we can't get privacy unless we all do,
     we're going to write it. We publish our code so that our fellow
     Cypherpunks may practice and play with it. Our code is free for all
     to use, worldwide. We don't much care if you don't approve of the
     software we write.

It seems that the original Cypherpunks mailing list degraded into a
debating society and very little new code is written. The 
signal-to-noise
ratio has become abysmal. Intellectual masturbation won't give us more
privacy - deployed code does.

Towards that end we founded the Secret Admirers. This is what we offer -
for members only:

     - The Secret Admirers mailing list (only reachable via Tor).
     - The Secret Admirers mailing list archive.
     - Mail account on the Secret Admirers server to communicate with the
       mailing list and other members (IMAP).
     - Git repository hosting (with read access for all member 
repositories).
     - Members can edit a user file on the server (for example, to 
publish
       their public PGP key).

Secret Admirers Rules

     - Secret Admirers is a community of doers. To be a member, you have 
to
       code/maintain privacy enhancing software and/or be the admin of
       privacy enhancing systems/services. This includes digital OPSEC 
tools
       and open-source hardware which is privacy/security related.
     - To become a full member of Secret Admirers you have to go through 
the
       application process (see below).
     - The existing full members will vote to decide if an applicant 
becomes
       a full member.
     - For all software and systems we design the following holds true: 
The
       more privacy it provides the better. This usually implies that 
strong
       cryptography is used as well.
     - Discussions on the Secret Admirers mailing list should be in 
regard to
       Cypherpunk... how to build better systems. Members are expected to
       communicate in a civilized manner and try to maintain a high
       signal-to-noise ratio.
     - Software written by our members in the context of Secret Admirers 
is
       freely available to all other members.
     - Only the original author may make the source code available to the
       general public. Members never release source code written and
       unreleased by other members.
     - A full member can bring up to two followers to Secret Admirers.
     - Followers get the same benefits as full members except voting 
rights
       and bringing in followers.
     - Followers can apply for full membership under the same rules as 
normal
       applicants.
     - Full members have to maintain the conditions of their application.
       That is, they keep working on/maintaining privacy related software 
or
       systems. If members stop being productive they risk loosing their
       membership status.
     - Members who do not follow the rules will be ejected. If a full 
member
       is ejected his followers will be ejected with him.

How to apply for Secret Admirers
For your Secret Admirers application we need:

     - A way to contact you (encrypted).
     - Your desired pseudonym on Secret Admirers.
     - A description of your working software project/system. If the
       code/system is already public we will request proof of control 
from you.
     - If you want to make the code only available to Secret Admirers we 
need it
       upfront to be able to review your application.

Apply here: http://oestla3j22reypzj.onion/account/index/applyform




From Rayzer at riseup.net  Thu Oct 29 16:01:40 2015
From: Rayzer at riseup.net (Razer)
Date: Thu, 29 Oct 2015 16:01:40 -0700
Subject: Shiny stuff and designer societies (addenda)
In-Reply-To: <CAHKdp-=YBD8ZokGvWOc0s359nESwXQMkR_3RnVJD0saWUZOA-A@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAHWD2rJNTxt2+=0rPkkc+323pTn-njkvJVgUE624LShu2xg1Eg@mail.gmail.com>
 <150b0aeef50.276e.4d489027c0c4d0c1b1ca03a1f48f1ffb@misanthropia.org>
 <20151028231728.1A96CC00019@frontend1.nyi.internal>
 <CAOsGNSThwv=c9K4v4HkD27PD+wY9+XykyTNOWs=7FOwPpxctZw@mail.gmail.com>
 <150b1290920.276e.4d489027c0c4d0c1b1ca03a1f48f1ffb@misanthropia.org>
 <20151029013945.C7D9FC00012@frontend1.nyi.internal>
 <CAHWD2rLJ0RgxcGZi=mKD=OfYYtCy1j9sfbzDKOVZuuX5EPCnJg@mail.gmail.com>
 <5632417A.3070402@riseup.net>
 <CAHKdp-=YBD8ZokGvWOc0s359nESwXQMkR_3RnVJD0saWUZOA-A@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <5632A554.60601@riseup.net>



On 10/29/2015 03:27 PM, Sean Lynch wrote:
> On Thu, Oct 29, 2015 at 9:02 AM Razer <Rayzer at riseup.net> wrote:
>
>     You use the word "I" a lot. I aim for a society where "We" is primary.
>
>
> I aim for the heads of people who aim for such a society, because "we"
> is a fiction. It is just a way of saying "I" while pretending you have
> others' interests in mind. You can only speak for yourself. Trying to
> speak for anyone else who has not asked you to is just another form of
> coercion.

Who said I speak for anyone but me? Or care to.

You're reading a lot into my interest in social equality. Perhaps it's
because of your own world view?

RR

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From juan.g71 at gmail.com  Thu Oct 29 12:03:24 2015
From: juan.g71 at gmail.com (Juan)
Date: Thu, 29 Oct 2015 16:03:24 -0300
Subject: Cypherpunks is broken - Welcome to Secret Admirers
In-Reply-To: <48b20a0d7226de7ec81e6a2eefacbec0@ownbay.net>
References: <48b20a0d7226de7ec81e6a2eefacbec0@ownbay.net>
Message-ID: <56326bf3.d1878c0a.292bf.60b3@mx.google.com>

On Thu, 29 Oct 2015 15:41:00 +0000
Trent Secret Admirers <trent.secretadmirers at ownbay.net> wrote:

> TL;DR, apply here:

> And like the manifesto, we believe in action more than in talk.

> 
> Just as software and hardware can be developed for surveillance 
> purposes, so can it be for better privacy and a truly free cyberspace.

	That's unfounded TALK. 

	

> Technology itself is neutral, we choose what to build with it. 

	That's more talk. And it's wrong talk too! Technology may be
	morally neutral, but it isn't 'neutral' in a general sense. 

	The current technology completly favors totalitarianism.


> The
> reason so little has been achieved lately is because we lost track of
> a fundamental point from the manifesto:
> 
>      Cypherpunks write code. 


	...without knowing the ABC of politics. That's cute. 



> 
> It seems that the original Cypherpunks mailing list degraded into a
> debating society 

	I guess people with no arguments are unlikely to like a
	debating society...They don't like to be remainded of their
	cluelessness.


>and very little new code is written. The 
> signal-to-noise
> ratio has become abysmal. Intellectual masturbation won't give us more
> privacy - deployed code does.


	And the proof backing your baseless talk is...where? 

	Right! It's no-where to be found. 

	What you have is only...talk.



> 
> Towards that end we founded the Secret Admirers. This is what we
> offer - for members only:
> 
>      - The Secret Admirers mailing list (only reachable via Tor).


	Yep. You get AAAAAA++++++ as far as self-parody goes. 



>      - The Secret Admirers mailing list archive.
>      - Mail account on the Secret Admirers server to communicate with
> the mailing list and other members (IMAP).
>      - Git repository hosting (with read access for all member 
> repositories).
>      - Members can edit a user file on the server (for example, to 
> publish
>        their public PGP key).
> 
> Secret Admirers Rules
> 
>      - Secret Admirers is a community of doers. To be a member, you
> have to
>        code/maintain privacy enhancing software and/or be the admin of
>        privacy enhancing systems/services. This includes digital
> OPSEC tools
>        and open-source hardware which is privacy/security related.
>      - To become a full member of Secret Admirers you have to go
> through the
>        application process (see below).
>      - The existing full members will vote to decide if an applicant 
> becomes
>        a full member.
>      - For all software and systems we design the following holds
> true: The
>        more privacy it provides the better. This usually implies that 
> strong
>        cryptography is used as well.
>      - Discussions on the Secret Admirers mailing list should be in 
> regard to
>        Cypherpunk... how to build better systems. Members are
> expected to communicate in a civilized manner and try to maintain a
> high signal-to-noise ratio.
>      - Software written by our members in the context of Secret
> Admirers is
>        freely available to all other members.
>      - Only the original author may make the source code available to
> the general public. Members never release source code written and
>        unreleased by other members.
>      - A full member can bring up to two followers to Secret Admirers.
>      - Followers get the same benefits as full members except voting 
> rights
>        and bringing in followers.
>      - Followers can apply for full membership under the same rules
> as normal
>        applicants.
>      - Full members have to maintain the conditions of their
> application. That is, they keep working on/maintaining privacy
> related software or
>        systems. If members stop being productive they risk loosing
> their membership status.
>      - Members who do not follow the rules will be ejected. If a full 
> member
>        is ejected his followers will be ejected with him.
> 
> How to apply for Secret Admirers
> For your Secret Admirers application we need:
> 
>      - A way to contact you (encrypted).
>      - Your desired pseudonym on Secret Admirers.
>      - A description of your working software project/system. If the
>        code/system is already public we will request proof of control 
> from you.
>      - If you want to make the code only available to Secret Admirers
> we need it
>        upfront to be able to review your application.
> 
> Apply here: http://oestla3j22reypzj.onion/account/index/applyform




From mirimir at riseup.net  Thu Oct 29 15:07:56 2015
From: mirimir at riseup.net (Mirimir)
Date: Thu, 29 Oct 2015 16:07:56 -0600
Subject: Cypherpunks is broken
In-Reply-To: <563292FE.2070405@mbox301.swipnet.se>
References: <48b20a0d7226de7ec81e6a2eefacbec0@ownbay.net>
 <20151029162224.GA6666@antiproton.jfet.org>
 <20151029165911.B5C60C0001E@frontend1.nyi.internal>
 <CAHWD2rJZkULZ8fJXbjT_jov0WHfihT0LRYXjAH+QJH-tQH618Q@mail.gmail.com>
 <E1ZrrSn-00079a-IM@elasmtp-curtail.atl.sa.earthlink.net>
 <563292FE.2070405@mbox301.swipnet.se>
Message-ID: <563298BC.9010909@riseup.net>

On 10/29/2015 03:43 PM, Mob wrote:
> John Young wrote:
>> ...half a dozen are dead, dying, diseased...
> 
> TCM?
> 
>  - - Mob

I was guessing that TCM is "raising wild pussies on a hilltop armed to
the gizzard against PETA warriors". From what I remember.




From carimachet at gmail.com  Thu Oct 29 07:13:06 2015
From: carimachet at gmail.com (Cari Machet)
Date: Thu, 29 Oct 2015 16:13:06 +0200
Subject: Getting embarrassing - Syria, the long haul
In-Reply-To: <56319052.7050002@gothic.com.au>
References: <CAOsGNSTZt=awx3a8pW83ruGFE8WB49c2vbu0-Bgio3YvA9mF3w@mail.gmail.com>
 <56319052.7050002@gothic.com.au>
Message-ID: <CAGRDzQXNJ-4aZq7gE3HdQ9EWQ1zYYaKazAKU8M=wSANQRO1MnA@mail.gmail.com>

Shelly you read zinn and dont internalize it?

Yes the CIA is perceived as master of the universe but the syrian revolt
began in a small town dara'a where some school children wrote grafitti on
the walls against the regime then had their fingers cut off

The supports of the syrian regime globally that prop it up are what keeps
it alive ... france did this in syria for too many decades

CIA is just enforcer to the authoratarian capitalists and attacking the
authoritarian capitalists where they live ... money ... comodification of
life ... is a solution... ie boycott all things french etc but undercutting
CIA by any means whatsoever ... finding all means ... any means is
productive

Basically the CIA is one small maggot of many maggots and just focusing on
the surface parasite or maggot as THE ONE is inneffective besides the
parasitic state lives in one and all and isnt just some outside force to be
battled there are many fronts all around ... so we can pick up any one of
them at any point in time and shove

Wherever you are sitting on any given land mass your every action effects
syria ... north korea ... washington dc ...  that people dont understand
that ... know that deeply is a direct action of the parasitic state on life
forms
On Oct 28, 2015 10:30 PM, "goran at gothic.com.au" <goran at gothic.com.au> wrote:

> Blog by Adam Curtis, THE BABY AND THE BAATH WATER
>
>
> http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/adamcurtis/entries/d3921cac-2144-306a-9f6e-712c0c685010
>
>
>
> On 29/10/2015 12:09, Zenaan Harkness wrote:
> > This is getting embarrassing for "the West" - the so called moral high
> > ground of the West, never existed. Even Hiroshima and Nagasaki were
> > bombed -after- Japan had surrendered, just that America insisted on
> > humiliation of unconditional surrender.
> >
> >
> http://russia-insider.com/en/documents-reveal-west-plotted-false-flag-justify-war-against-syria-1957/ri10799
> > "
> > In 1957, it was PG-13 “border clashes”. Now we have “government
> > chemical weapons attacks against orphans”
> > "
> >
> > I wonder where our CIA apologists are now ...
> > Z
> >
> >
>
>
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From l at odewijk.nl  Thu Oct 29 08:19:29 2015
From: l at odewijk.nl (=?UTF-8?Q?Lodewijk_andr=C3=A9_de_la_porte?=)
Date: Thu, 29 Oct 2015 16:19:29 +0100
Subject: Shiny stuff and designer societies
In-Reply-To: <20151029013945.C7D9FC00012@frontend1.nyi.internal>
References: <CAHWD2rJNTxt2+=0rPkkc+323pTn-njkvJVgUE624LShu2xg1Eg@mail.gmail.com>
 <150b0aeef50.276e.4d489027c0c4d0c1b1ca03a1f48f1ffb@misanthropia.org>
 <20151028231728.1A96CC00019@frontend1.nyi.internal>
 <CAOsGNSThwv=c9K4v4HkD27PD+wY9+XykyTNOWs=7FOwPpxctZw@mail.gmail.com>
 <150b1290920.276e.4d489027c0c4d0c1b1ca03a1f48f1ffb@misanthropia.org>
 <20151029013945.C7D9FC00012@frontend1.nyi.internal>
Message-ID: <CAHWD2rLJ0RgxcGZi=mKD=OfYYtCy1j9sfbzDKOVZuuX5EPCnJg@mail.gmail.com>

I generally like being disagreed with, so this was interesting. I don't
blame anyone for not getting into my response, or even for getting angry
from it. I hope I'll get some insightful responses, that help me think the
subject through better.

(@Juan, try more patience and depth - I think it will make you seem less
aggressive and help you get the point across. This cheerleading is fun but
less useful.)

Truecost one or two dead 24 year old foxconn/Bangladeshi sweatshop
> worker's body into that equation when you do that cost comparison.


Truecost being some unrealistic form of cost determination? We are in a
real world situation when I buy something made in a sweatshop. Governments
skew everything all over the place and cause grave injustice in doing so.
Wealth imbalance is the other great evil, that could be limited by
something like Basic Income, but it is hard to implement.

Other than excessive coercion following wealth imbalance, and government
unmarkets, the price I pay is the Truecost.

The difference between "what I pay now", "what I pay later", "what I lose
in opportunity" etc is very difficult to keep track of, and explains my
desire for "advanced finance". In fact, this is so important that a hedge
fund manager can often make a very big amount, just by fixing wrong
pricing. It offends our natural understanding of things, and that is also
why we suck at it. (And the insane earnings on the markets are also a
direct result of us sucking at markets)


The Zapatistas are a collectivist society and they've far from 'lost'.
> Other example must exist but they're not coming to mind, and certainly
> 'scalability' IS a problem. The homeless in the US spontaneously form
> self-supporting collectives that are also highly individualistic.


Not sure what this is supposed to evidence. Collectives are still in the
individual's advantage? I'm not sure that follows, humans act in bizarre
ways and our power allows the absurdities to be reality.


> The only real social structures are 'fuzzy'. The quest for purity, of
> thought, political structure, culture, drug, whatever, is a disease.
>

I disagree. The purer a system the greater our understanding, and a thing
understood is exceedingly more useful. Fuzziness causes us to make
mistakes, and for mistakes to stack atop mistakes.


> But my basic stand is, by it's very design, Capitalism is murderous, and
> predatory. There is no such thing as 'kinder and gentler' capitalism and
> there never will be.


Capitalism is definitely murder. It's a natural system, with evolutionary
effects. It kills the weak, flawed, unfit. We can make it kinder, but doing
so makes it less effective. We've already made it a lot kinder. (note: less
effective, but kinder. It's not clear which one would prefer. Truthfully I
think Basic Income is the ideal way to guarantee kindness, but it's hard to
implement.)


Juan:

> That sounds like true capitalism (savings) whereas the system
> Lodewijk is advertising is mercantilism/consumerism/fascism.


 I argued that time expended readily outweighs cost saved. Not anything
else. (I have fixed things for fun and cost savings, like Razer argued
makes sense, but then it's entertainment - not economically wise choices)


He's talking about mercantilism. By "advanced finance" he
> actually means the banking mafia and government robbing
> everybody blind.


No. In my idealized model politics is quite a different game. There is most
definitely still a "government mafia", that harasses everyone to 1. stay
out of each other's hair and 2. invest in the advancement of the human race
(think space travel, science). But, there is no nations. Interest groups
are inevitable and should not be encouraged or discouraged, merely
understood. That way no interest group can offend justice (meaning:
fairness).

But, the government *must not* thread into the financial services field. It
will either reduce freedom, or be out-competed. Both are happening in the
real world.

That is to say, a mixed economy. Again.
> mercantilism/fascim/state socialism/state communism.


I think some products are best rendered without competition, and some are
best rendered with competition. So long as the drive to do best exists we
do not really need to replicate effort. Eg: Patents are only good for
preventing people from using the best available methods. It's a hack to
make investments more worthwhile, and secrecy less important. If we didn't
need a profit incentive there would be no need for patents.

A similar argument is possible for shrewd advertising, why lie to people if
you do not profit from it? One helps everyone most by providing correct
information. (*this is not true, people regularly need to be coerced to act
in their best interests. But coercion for the better is really not that
bad.)

In the real world we oft encounter duopolies. Basically a monopoly with a
state-protected laggard. The monopolist ensures the laggard continues
existing, for example by increasing it's own prices to a kind of
unreasonable height. That ensures sales for the laggard, and maximum
profit. Basically this whole system is then fucked, as there is no real
drive for advancement (the laggard cannot overtake the monopolist, it has
not the funds. But it also cannot fail, the monopolist prevents it. So why
even put up a fight?) and humanity is helped no better than the laggard
performs. It happens with all our huge markets, from shipping to silicon to
telecom to food to housing to government to diamonds, etc, etc, etc, etc,
etc.


> Lodewijk is just a run of the mill fascist who thinks he has
> the 'god given' right to 'design' 'society' according to his
> fuckingly retarded tastes.
>
> Also, he likes to pretend that the bad outcomes of his fascist
> system are caused by innocent lambs who actually want to do the
> 'right' thing. Sick.
>

I'm too minarchist to be a facist, but otherwise you're spot on. Try not to
confuse my designs with the current world. I am not a supporter of the
status quo, but I will attempt to understand it, and I will say there's
hardly an evil actor out there. We just collectively fuck up according to
our fuckingly retarded tastes.

You seem to be speaking from a position where it sounds like money is the
> focal point, the most important factor.  To me, it is the least important
> part of the equation.


Money is liquid value. Value is the game. It's not at all about money,
money is useless. It's the value it denotes that's what it's all about.

You seem to ignore how seriously amazing pure liquid value is. In an ideal
world; when faced with two choices, the most profitable one is the one
that's bottom line better for humanity. You make an egoistic choice, and
improve the world.

A more profitable solution is either more efficient or provides greater
value. Error is introduced in judgement of value, and unmarket effects can
distort the picture of efficiency.

Other unmarket effects include excessive wealth (where more or less wealth
simply doesn't matter), limited lifespans (who cares if you lose? You'll
die anyway), extreme fuzziness of value, etc, etc.

Ever heard of voluntary simplicity?


I'm happy you're happy. I'm sad you'll not advance and will get your ass
handed to you by an aggressor who does. Real life is competitive by nature.
You may lose happily, and disappear. It doesn't really matter. The universe
dies a heat death anyway.

Not flying high is also a survival tactic though. Who knows, maybe things
will work our okay for you. (probably still better to fly a little higher)

You made some mention of thrift stores providing great value, and
satisfaction/fun from repairs also being value. I agree. I bought things
from thrift shops, and I repaired things for fun (and learning).

You mentioned "true" fair trade. I believe in labor markets, and therefore
do not think fair trade is a thing at all. "Fair trade" is mostly just
stupid trade, unless we get something for it. And NO not just a good
goddamn feeling. I mean "The Formula" like improvements, people causing
less disturbance if they get paid more kind of things. (note: things can
get extremely unfair in a sufficiently unbalanced situation, but so long as
coercion is limited it's fine)

>Buying local is even more meaningless. If transport costs do not outweigh
> >production costs, go ferry it in from Australia, China, Chile, etc. You're
> >making the efficient choice by doing so.

So are you saying that you're okay with people working in slave labor
> conditions & being paid subhuman wages, polluting the atmosphere by
> transporting this stuff for thousands of miles... instead of supporting the
> local businesses in your own community, if the price is right?  I can't
> even answer this.  Not without flaming.  I can't.


Yes. I'm saying that the price tells me if it's more efficient or not. If a
European person wants to live like a princess, or wouldn't work at all,
then perhaps I'll just ignore him and have someone else do the work.

Pollution is a difficult subject. It is easily solved:

1. All the earth is vested into a legal person
2. The legal person will auction destroyable earth - licenses to dump
pollutants, manipulate land, cut rainforest, fish, hunt, etc. such that
auction profit is maximized - yet earth preserved as per politically
determined rules. (must support X panda's, Y biodiversity units, Z
radioactivity level, etc)
3. The auction's profits are diverted to causes of common interest (donated
to the world government)
3. ALTERNATIVELY The auctions profits are transferred into (a) fictive
good(s) and destroyed - causing inflation/deflation to distribute the
finances over the owners of the fictive good. The choice of fictive good is
as important as the choice of a cause of common interest - it is merely a
way to exclude government from the process. There is atm no suitable
fictive good.

There's some issues regarding compensation for those most affected.
Chernobyl's responsible legal people (Russian gov, whatever exploitation
company, etc) will be forced to buy the destroyable earth licenses, likely
causing a massive bump to the price. It would have been dearly paid for.
But it would make sense for people more affected by the nuclear fallout to
see a bigger cut of that value. It's complex and political but can be done
decently.

Most importantly this preserves the real cost/risk/benefit relationships.
It preserves the markets. It means that if anyone makes the cheapest
choice, it is also the best choice. Drive a car if you think it's worth it!
It all works out in the end.

I don't "want any money", but I do want to travel here and there and
> connect to the internet to type with you. At the moment I need certain
> amounts of money to facilitate achieving these things.


Obtain as much money as you can. Then, if you don't use it, donate it to
causes you care about. Causes that help people. Not earning money is just
sloth, really.

Is the essence of your point to "be mindful" - whether travel, food,
> things? It is remotely conceivable to me that being mindful might
> possibly contribute to a fuller and more meaningful and relaxed
> existence.


Meaningful? Idk what you mean by that. I think you mean "gives the feeling
of living meaningfully and relaxed". Perhaps Yoga and drugs are your keys.
Drugs to kill any suffering, perhaps heighten joy. Yoga because it
apparently helps people find meaning.

> I say money is not something a sane person should want or not want,

> for itself. Money is a tool in our present "reality".
>
> Sane...yes.  Well that explains the Wall St vultures, then!


Perhaps not money, but the value it denotes. Perhaps a massage, an
icecream, soylent, a solar panel, etc. I'm sure you want /something/ of
value.
The "Wall St vultures" may be greedy assholes (idk) but the reason they're
effective is because our markets are not. The better our financial system
works, the less money people in the business could make. Perhaps now it
explains everything :P? (I think the obscurity, complexity, gravity of the
subject matter and legal restrictions caused by the aforementioned is why
the financial markets don't work better)

We're all in the same damn boat.  We sink or swim, together.


Or not together, that's the problem. (Also, sometimes people don't care)


Sorry for being verbose. It's very hard to get these arguments across. I'm
quite sure we're all on the same side, it's just so damn hard to speak.
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From juan.g71 at gmail.com  Thu Oct 29 12:56:35 2015
From: juan.g71 at gmail.com (Juan)
Date: Thu, 29 Oct 2015 16:56:35 -0300
Subject: Shiny stuff and designer societies
In-Reply-To: <CAHWD2rLJ0RgxcGZi=mKD=OfYYtCy1j9sfbzDKOVZuuX5EPCnJg@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAHWD2rJNTxt2+=0rPkkc+323pTn-njkvJVgUE624LShu2xg1Eg@mail.gmail.com>
 <150b0aeef50.276e.4d489027c0c4d0c1b1ca03a1f48f1ffb@misanthropia.org>
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Message-ID: <56327869.361f8c0a.efb1c.692d@mx.google.com>

On Thu, 29 Oct 2015 16:19:29 +0100
Lodewijk andré de la porte <l at odewijk.nl> wrote:


> 
> Juan:
> 
> > That sounds like true capitalism (savings) whereas the system
> > Lodewijk is advertising is mercantilism/consumerism/fascism.
> 
> 
>  I argued that time expended readily outweighs cost saved. 


	I argue that the market is distorted by the financial mafia, by
	big (and even some small) business, by public 'education' (makes
	people stupid) by religion (makes peoples stupid *and* evil), by
	'fashion' (advertising) - and more. 

	As a result, people buy useless and 'fashionable' stuff,
	produced by privileged firms, and financed by 'cheap' (i.e. fake) credit.


	
> Not
> anything else. (I have fixed things for fun and cost savings, like
> Razer argued makes sense, but then it's entertainment - not
> economically wise choices)

	'economically wise' choices can be made in a free market, not
	in the current mercantilistic/fascist system. 

> 
> 
> He's talking about mercantilism. By "advanced finance" he
> > actually means the banking mafia and government robbing
> > everybody blind.
> 
> 
> No. In my idealized model politics is quite a different game. There
> is most definitely still a "government mafia", that harasses everyone
> to 1. stay out of each other's hair


	So a criminal monopoly is going to define what 'justice' is,
	and enforce it, too. 

	You can keep repeating absurd, mainstream propaganda without
	any regard to logic, but what's the point? What can you
	achieve? 

	
> and 2. invest in the advancement
> of the human race (think space travel, science).

	So your criminal monopoly is not only going to pretend that
	their crimes are 'just' and 'fair'. They are so enlightened that
	they are also going to 'advance' 'science'. 

	Come on Lodewijk. Why don't you do your homework? Learn the ABC
	of poltical theory. 



> But, there is no
> nations. 

	Ah, so your monopoly of crime is going to tyranize the whole
	planet. Cute.



> That is to say, a mixed economy. Again.
> > mercantilism/fascim/state socialism/state communism.
> 
> 
> I think some products are best rendered without competition, and some
> are best rendered with competition. 

	I think your baseless, economically ignorant opinions are just
	that. Baseless and ignorant. 

	Plus, you thik you have the 'right' to force people to conform
	to your 'utopia'. Do you mind explaining how you acquired that 'right'?
	<----fundamental question.

	Do you mind answering fundamental questions? 



> So long as the drive to do best
> exists we do not really need to replicate effort. Eg: Patents are
> only good for preventing people from using the best available
> methods. It's a hack to make investments more worthwhile, and secrecy
> less important. If we didn't need a profit incentive there would be
> no need for patents.

	So, you are also defending the 'intellectual property' mafia? 

	It's a 'necessary evil'? (doubly retarded since you don't
	believe in 'evil' eh? )


> 
> A similar argument is possible for shrewd advertising, why lie to
> people if you do not profit from it? One helps everyone most by
> providing correct information. (*this is not true, people regularly
> need to be coerced to act in their best interests.

	Sure. What if I beat you to a pulp? For your own good of
	course. Oh, 'your own good' is whatever I say it is. I am the
	government. 


> But coercion for
> the better is really not that bad.)


	Okay. You can keep repeating the same totalitarian
	'progressive' nonsense ad nauseam. But I had enough. 


	
> 
> In the real world we oft encounter duopolies. Basically a monopoly
> with a state-protected laggard. The monopolist ensures the laggard
> continues existing, for example by increasing it's own prices to a
> kind of unreasonable height. That ensures sales for the laggard, and
> maximum profit. Basically this whole system is then fucked, as there
> is no real drive for advancement (the laggard cannot overtake the
> monopolist, it has not the funds. But it also cannot fail, the
> monopolist prevents it. So why even put up a fight?) and humanity is
> helped no better than the laggard performs. It happens with all our
> huge markets, from shipping to silicon to telecom to food to housing
> to government to diamonds, etc, etc, etc, etc, etc.
> 

	Clueless rambling. Or ill intentioned, self-serving propaganda.


> 
> > Lodewijk is just a run of the mill fascist who thinks he has
> > the 'god given' right to 'design' 'society' according to his
> > fuckingly retarded tastes.
> >
> > Also, he likes to pretend that the bad outcomes of his fascist
> > system are caused by innocent lambs who actually want to do the
> > 'right' thing. Sick.
> >
> 
> I'm too minarchist to be a facist, but otherwise you're spot on. Try
> not to confuse my designs with the current world.I am not a
> supporter of the status quo, 


	...says a supporter of the status quo who is parroting
	mainstream propaganda in a more or less radical mailing list.


> but I will attempt to understand it, and
> I will say there's hardly an evil actor out there. 

	Well, I can say the moon is made of cheese. 

> We just
> collectively fuck up according to our fuckingly retarded tastes.


	Sure. Soldiers and wall street bankers are just as innocent as
	4 year old children. 


> 

>


J.




From l at odewijk.nl  Thu Oct 29 10:09:10 2015
From: l at odewijk.nl (=?UTF-8?Q?Lodewijk_andr=C3=A9_de_la_porte?=)
Date: Thu, 29 Oct 2015 18:09:10 +0100
Subject: Shiny stuff and designer societies
In-Reply-To: <563240F7.8050000@riseup.net>
References: <CAHWD2rJNTxt2+=0rPkkc+323pTn-njkvJVgUE624LShu2xg1Eg@mail.gmail.com>
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2015-10-29 16:53 GMT+01:00 Razer <Rayzer at riseup.net>:

> On 10/29/2015 08:19 AM, Lodewijk andré de la porte wrote:
> > Truecost being some unrealistic form of cost determination?
>
> True cost economics is "Unrealistic"?
>
> Surely you jest...


I jest you not.


> It's difficult to measure because the variables in
> /"An economic model that seeks to include the cost of negative
> externalities into the pricing of goods and services.//"(1) /can be
> enormous, but the ability to 'do the math' is hardly unrealistic.
>

It definitely is. A selective enumeration (which it will always be) is
merely a political tool. A comprehensive enumeration is impossible to
assure and costly to produce. And who should bear the costs of such an
enumeration? Society as a whole?

It is simply not fair to make law requiring such enumerations. It is much
better to make theft illegal.


> /"Economics, in its current form, is a very limited science."(2)/ and
> true-costing acts to de-limit it.
>

Words without meaning.


>
> 1 http://www.investopedia.com/terms/t/truecosteconomics.asp
> 2 http://www.utne.com/community/truecosteconomics.aspx


Link 2, by line analysis:

Economics, in its current form, is a very limited science. Classical
> economists are accustomed to quantifying cost in gain in simple monetary
> terms while ignoring the more sweeping ramifications of a particular
> decision.


Untruth. "Classical economists" are used to not involving terms they
needn't in providing a price quote. I don't pay the costs? I don't charge
the costs. It is logical, simple, practical.


> Air pollution, for example, costs residents of Ontario at least $1 billion
> a year in medical costs and missed work, but these figures do not make
> their way into the analysis of the businesses doing the polluting.


This is the fault of governance, not economics. Simply, the company should
arrange a license to pollute. The license's cost should equal or exceed the
damage to the community - such that individuals in the community are bottom
line not negatively affected by the alteration.


> Neither does the appalling destruction that China is currently wreaking on
> the environment, the cost of which damage more than outweighs the country's
> rapid economic growth.


I need a citation on this. It implies there's "environmental value" being
sacrificed for "value of economic size". Apparently the Chinese do think
their economy is worth the damage to the environment. This is also a
cultural issue. Simply put, the author is being an ignorant presumptuous
prick, pushing his values onto the Chinese government planners. There is
absolutely no evidence of economic miscalculations - merely of a different
subjective valuation of nature (or economy). (And even that is not
substantiated in the article)


> There is no room for such crucial factors in neoclassical economics, the
> predominant school of economic thought that assumes that people's decisions
> are guided by totally rational thought processes.


It merely implies that people that are less rational will lose the economic
game. (it's true, they do generally lose) (it's also untrue, there's no
rational people. Only coincidence of the particular insanity and reality)


> Clearly, the destruction of one's habitat is not an entirely rational
> decision to make, and critics blast the isolated, 'autistic' manner in
> which modern economics employs a narrow scope and and a limited conception
> of cost and value.
>

There's just no God in it, you know? These pointy nosed walking calculators
just ignore all our warm fuzzy feelings! I LIKE THAT TREE! NO I CAN'T
AFFORD BUYING A TREE I OWN NO LAND
etc...


> A number of economists, fed up with the limitations of classical
> economics, have put forth a new paradigm; in which pricing includes a
> number of factors beyond an item's market value. The environmental cost of
> aviation, for example,


(is not beyond an item's market value so long as governance is proper /
people aren't being poisoned without compensation )

adds at least $500 per passenger to airline travel. Recent mad cow scares
> have cost the cattle industry $6 billion dollars,


Disease is definitely a hard to model and price item. There's lots of
factors, like how the disease spreads, population densities,
countermeasures, who should carry risks, etc. It goes for humans too,
infectious and unhygienic as we are. I'll think on it some other time.


> and a World Health Organization study of France, Switzerland, and Austria
> found that 1.7 percent of the GDP was taken up by the costs of traffic
> pollution.


I thought traffic pollution wasn't in the GDP? We do have pollution related
tax in most nations. Uninterpretable (and uncited) statistic.


> By using these figures to paint a more complete picture of the
> transportation and cattle industries, economists will be able to more
> easily create value, not just in terms of raw profitability, but in terms
> of overall health and environmental impact.


Uhh... I really don't know what this is supposed to mean.


> In fact, the new paradigm substitutes the more broad Genuine Progress
> Indicator (GPI) for the limited Gross Domestic Product, factoring leisure
> time, crime, and resource depletion into the measurement of a nation's
> success.


Oh, more leisure time is "Genuine Progress"? Less punished activity (crime)
is Genuine Progress? Having natural resources is good, but using them is
what makes them resources in the first place. GPD doesn't factor it
destroyed potential, but GPD is just what it is and nobody is pretending
it's more or less.

I appreciate the idea of a better "how good is your nation doing"
indicator. It's very political, and it's best to avoid bullshit in
statistics.


> With global warming racking up a yearly bill of $304.2 billion, businesses
> would be forced to take note of their own environmental practices in a way
> that the current model does not encourage. True Cost Economics is currently
> creating a sizable ruckus in the academic world, and its value as a system
> of thought is starting to be recognized by the economic establishment.


"We should make those responsible bear the cost for their actions" != "True
Cost Economics"
True Cost Economics is a way for one nation to tell another it needs to do
something. It's just another way to do politics, not economics.

Oh, and making those responsible bear the cost for their action is
absolutely essential for capitalism. Without it we're only doing the
horrible parts of capitalism, not the magical parts.
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From l at odewijk.nl  Thu Oct 29 10:18:22 2015
From: l at odewijk.nl (=?UTF-8?Q?Lodewijk_andr=C3=A9_de_la_porte?=)
Date: Thu, 29 Oct 2015 18:18:22 +0100
Subject: Shiny stuff and designer societies (addenda)
In-Reply-To: <5632417A.3070402@riseup.net>
References: <CAHWD2rJNTxt2+=0rPkkc+323pTn-njkvJVgUE624LShu2xg1Eg@mail.gmail.com>
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2015-10-29 16:55 GMT+01:00 Razer <Rayzer at riseup.net>:

> You use the word "I" a lot. I aim for a society where "We" is primary.


The idea that you can force people to act in the common interest has been
tried many times. We prefer to have freedom, nowadays. At least, I do.

Game theory puts wrenches in any collaborative action that's not entirely
individual centered. Go let the pigs ravage you, I'll just wait to discuss
an arrangement with them once they're through with you. I just hope you
didn't give them absolutely unmatchable unfair advantages. (footnote: did
you ever see a B-52 bomber in real life?)
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From l at odewijk.nl  Thu Oct 29 10:21:19 2015
From: l at odewijk.nl (=?UTF-8?Q?Lodewijk_andr=C3=A9_de_la_porte?=)
Date: Thu, 29 Oct 2015 18:21:19 +0100
Subject: Cypherpunks is broken - Welcome to Secret Admirers
In-Reply-To: <20151029165911.B5C60C0001E@frontend1.nyi.internal>
References: <48b20a0d7226de7ec81e6a2eefacbec0@ownbay.net>
 <20151029162224.GA6666@antiproton.jfet.org>
 <20151029165911.B5C60C0001E@frontend1.nyi.internal>
Message-ID: <CAHWD2rJZkULZ8fJXbjT_jov0WHfihT0LRYXjAH+QJH-tQH618Q@mail.gmail.com>

Good luck!
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From shelley at misanthropia.org  Thu Oct 29 18:38:39 2015
From: shelley at misanthropia.org (Shelley)
Date: Thu, 29 Oct 2015 18:38:39 -0700
Subject: Shiny stuff and designer societies (addenda)
In-Reply-To: <CAOsGNSQwQO5n8aDXsdeYqtNEtucej0GaG=2s8aiPcWGtdQUE6Q@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAHWD2rJNTxt2+=0rPkkc+323pTn-njkvJVgUE624LShu2xg1Eg@mail.gmail.com>
 <150b0aeef50.276e.4d489027c0c4d0c1b1ca03a1f48f1ffb@misanthropia.org>
 <20151028231728.1A96CC00019@frontend1.nyi.internal>
 <CAOsGNSThwv=c9K4v4HkD27PD+wY9+XykyTNOWs=7FOwPpxctZw@mail.gmail.com>
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 <20151029013945.C7D9FC00012@frontend1.nyi.internal>
 <CAHWD2rLJ0RgxcGZi=mKD=OfYYtCy1j9sfbzDKOVZuuX5EPCnJg@mail.gmail.com>
 <5632417A.3070402@riseup.net>
 <CAHWD2rL0jH=Kb=UiRArACMh49Wj_m+w8ZXWLtyVu8eU=Ruu+Cw@mail.gmail.com>
 <20151029173517.02E5CC00016@frontend1.nyi.internal>
 <CAHWD2rL2hoh9-=htyYbuN1OM0qviQB+zsJzjk4Bj66naP0Rpbw@mail.gmail.com>
 <20151029182639.A6B60C00013@frontend1.nyi.internal>
 <CAOsGNSQwQO5n8aDXsdeYqtNEtucej0GaG=2s8aiPcWGtdQUE6Q@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <20151030013822.DDEEF6801A0@frontend2.nyi.internal>

On October 29, 2015 5:35:15 PM Zenaan Harkness <zen at freedbms.net> wrote:

> On 10/29/15, Shelley <shelley at misanthropia.org> wrote:
> > On October 29, 2015 11:17:05 AM Lodewijk andré de la porte <l at odewijk.nl>
> > wrote:
> >> I'm sorry, but there's only so much one will do with disregard of self.
> >
> > That speaks volumes of your character.
>
> I read Lodewijk's comment as a generalised statement on the current
> predominant nature of 'Western' (perhaps all) people. As in "how
> things are" not "how I am and how I want the world to be".
>
> Character attack is sometimes not be in the interests of constructive dialogue.

I said it spoke volumes of his character; kind of up to the reader to 
decide what that is, eh?

I'm not intentionally attacking his character.  I think it was an 
expression of cumulative exasperation.  It feels as though we are speaking 
from different dimensions; just not connecting.

I was also really busy when I wrote that.  I should be more cognizant; it's 
difficult enough to convey ideas across the ether as it is.

>
> Inspiration for a 'better' world is a good thing. Resignation over the
> current world is a common thing. Finding a point of compassion in our
> conversations with each other is something I have failed at too many
> times.
>

Another reason why you've rarely seen me comment in the political threads.  
Misanthropia needs to work on her communication skills, imagine that :)

-Shelley





From carimachet at gmail.com  Thu Oct 29 09:43:47 2015
From: carimachet at gmail.com (Cari Machet)
Date: Thu, 29 Oct 2015 18:43:47 +0200
Subject: Getting embarrassing - Syria, the long haul
In-Reply-To: <CAGRDzQXNJ-4aZq7gE3HdQ9EWQ1zYYaKazAKU8M=wSANQRO1MnA@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAOsGNSTZt=awx3a8pW83ruGFE8WB49c2vbu0-Bgio3YvA9mF3w@mail.gmail.com>
 <56319052.7050002@gothic.com.au>
 <CAGRDzQXNJ-4aZq7gE3HdQ9EWQ1zYYaKazAKU8M=wSANQRO1MnA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAGRDzQXiMT70LnR2=9OR70s1xPweY8=49OC1vdr_8eeN1w3Row@mail.gmail.com>

Amazingly great article thanks
On Oct 29, 2015 9:13 AM, "Cari Machet" <carimachet at gmail.com> wrote:

> Shelly you read zinn and dont internalize it?
>
> Yes the CIA is perceived as master of the universe but the syrian revolt
> began in a small town dara'a where some school children wrote grafitti on
> the walls against the regime then had their fingers cut off
>
> The supports of the syrian regime globally that prop it up are what keeps
> it alive ... france did this in syria for too many decades
>
> CIA is just enforcer to the authoratarian capitalists and attacking the
> authoritarian capitalists where they live ... money ... comodification of
> life ... is a solution... ie boycott all things french etc but undercutting
> CIA by any means whatsoever ... finding all means ... any means is
> productive
>
> Basically the CIA is one small maggot of many maggots and just focusing on
> the surface parasite or maggot as THE ONE is inneffective besides the
> parasitic state lives in one and all and isnt just some outside force to be
> battled there are many fronts all around ... so we can pick up any one of
> them at any point in time and shove
>
> Wherever you are sitting on any given land mass your every action effects
> syria ... north korea ... washington dc ...  that people dont understand
> that ... know that deeply is a direct action of the parasitic state on life
> forms
> On Oct 28, 2015 10:30 PM, "goran at gothic.com.au" <goran at gothic.com.au>
> wrote:
>
>> Blog by Adam Curtis, THE BABY AND THE BAATH WATER
>>
>>
>> http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/adamcurtis/entries/d3921cac-2144-306a-9f6e-712c0c685010
>>
>>
>>
>> On 29/10/2015 12:09, Zenaan Harkness wrote:
>> > This is getting embarrassing for "the West" - the so called moral high
>> > ground of the West, never existed. Even Hiroshima and Nagasaki were
>> > bombed -after- Japan had surrendered, just that America insisted on
>> > humiliation of unconditional surrender.
>> >
>> >
>> http://russia-insider.com/en/documents-reveal-west-plotted-false-flag-justify-war-against-syria-1957/ri10799
>> > "
>> > In 1957, it was PG-13 “border clashes”. Now we have “government
>> > chemical weapons attacks against orphans”
>> > "
>> >
>> > I wonder where our CIA apologists are now ...
>> > Z
>> >
>> >
>>
>>
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From jd.cypherpunks at gmail.com  Thu Oct 29 10:50:05 2015
From: jd.cypherpunks at gmail.com (jd.cypherpunks at gmail.com)
Date: Thu, 29 Oct 2015 18:50:05 +0100
Subject: Cypherpunks is broken - Welcome to Secret Admirers
Message-ID: <wpfge4w84c5t06k91g3k7inu.1446141005489@email.android.com>

Is this a new initative from NSA & Co (or an old one?)
Nothing new here.
--jd

-------- Ursprüngliche Nachricht --------
Von: Trent Secret Admirers <trent.secretadmirers at ownbay.net> 
Datum: 29.10.2015  16:41  (GMT+01:00) 
An: Cypherpunks <cypherpunks at cpunks.org> 
Betreff: Cypherpunks is broken - Welcome to Secret Admirers 

TL;DR, apply here: http://oestla3j22reypzj.onion/account/index/applyform
> snip
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From l at odewijk.nl  Thu Oct 29 11:07:58 2015
From: l at odewijk.nl (=?UTF-8?Q?Lodewijk_andr=C3=A9_de_la_porte?=)
Date: Thu, 29 Oct 2015 19:07:58 +0100
Subject: Shiny stuff and designer societies
In-Reply-To: <56325ABA.5000005@riseup.net>
References: <CAHWD2rJNTxt2+=0rPkkc+323pTn-njkvJVgUE624LShu2xg1Eg@mail.gmail.com>
 <150b0aeef50.276e.4d489027c0c4d0c1b1ca03a1f48f1ffb@misanthropia.org>
 <20151028231728.1A96CC00019@frontend1.nyi.internal>
 <CAOsGNSThwv=c9K4v4HkD27PD+wY9+XykyTNOWs=7FOwPpxctZw@mail.gmail.com>
 <150b1290920.276e.4d489027c0c4d0c1b1ca03a1f48f1ffb@misanthropia.org>
 <20151029013945.C7D9FC00012@frontend1.nyi.internal>
 <CAHWD2rLJ0RgxcGZi=mKD=OfYYtCy1j9sfbzDKOVZuuX5EPCnJg@mail.gmail.com>
 <563240F7.8050000@riseup.net>
 <CAHWD2r+N79_NQPxZCs87YwNv+0bYtcjP19MhisQTw+i+Hp9OGA@mail.gmail.com>
 <56325ABA.5000005@riseup.net>
Message-ID: <CAHWD2r+Yx8OVC-4SZmAiS5DdjOAyE=rf+6HiM4nFyLF3DDfiFA@mail.gmail.com>

2015-10-29 18:43 GMT+01:00 Razer <Rayzer at riseup.net>:

> On 10/29/2015 10:09 AM, Lodewijk andré de la porte wrote:
> >
> > It definitely is. A selective enumeration (which it will always be) is
> > merely a political tool.
> Your method is selective, and as I've stated elsewhere seems to revolve
> around your 'needs', most of which have been impressed in you by
> external forces with motives NOT friendly to your, or your specie's
> continued survival.
>

I'm not sure what the point is. Could you clarify?

My method is selective. Money models reality. I'm just trying to make it
model better. Model complexity has a cost too, but generally more accurate
is better.


> > A comprehensive enumeration is impossible to assure and costly to
> > produce. And who should bear the costs of such an enumeration? Society
> > as a whole?
>
> Absolutely.


I think society as a whole should, where appropriate, set up a mechanism as
I described above. What's the TrueCost of a building being painted white
instead of black? Does white distract, manipulate, affect? Does black? What
about indoor lights turning bluer after lunch? (companies actually do the
latter for improving employee performance)

If you see value in finding out, go for it. But please don't try to charge
me for it. That's just wrong.
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From juan.g71 at gmail.com  Thu Oct 29 15:10:57 2015
From: juan.g71 at gmail.com (Juan)
Date: Thu, 29 Oct 2015 19:10:57 -0300
Subject: Shiny stuff and designer societies
In-Reply-To: <CAHWD2rLBHnMHYnLZfYWfvvY9vQnxxrTp5Pk88H5mFoXO6+KW7g@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAHWD2rJNTxt2+=0rPkkc+323pTn-njkvJVgUE624LShu2xg1Eg@mail.gmail.com>
 <150b0aeef50.276e.4d489027c0c4d0c1b1ca03a1f48f1ffb@misanthropia.org>
 <20151028231728.1A96CC00019@frontend1.nyi.internal>
 <CAOsGNSThwv=c9K4v4HkD27PD+wY9+XykyTNOWs=7FOwPpxctZw@mail.gmail.com>
 <150b1290920.276e.4d489027c0c4d0c1b1ca03a1f48f1ffb@misanthropia.org>
 <20151029013945.C7D9FC00012@frontend1.nyi.internal>
 <CAHWD2rLJ0RgxcGZi=mKD=OfYYtCy1j9sfbzDKOVZuuX5EPCnJg@mail.gmail.com>
 <56327869.361f8c0a.efb1c.692d@mx.google.com>
 <CAHWD2rLBHnMHYnLZfYWfvvY9vQnxxrTp5Pk88H5mFoXO6+KW7g@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <563297e8.58a58c0a.b6f78.7e56@mx.google.com>

On Thu, 29 Oct 2015 22:23:39 +0100
Lodewijk andré de la porte <l at odewijk.nl> wrote:

> I rarely get accused of being mainstream. I almost feel normal now.

> Please don't mistake pointing out advantages for being a supporter.

	You seem like a supporter to me because you're underscoring the
	advantages while ignoring the drawbacks. I'll reply to the rest
	of your message later.






From l at odewijk.nl  Thu Oct 29 11:16:43 2015
From: l at odewijk.nl (=?UTF-8?Q?Lodewijk_andr=C3=A9_de_la_porte?=)
Date: Thu, 29 Oct 2015 19:16:43 +0100
Subject: Shiny stuff and designer societies (addenda)
In-Reply-To: <20151029173517.02E5CC00016@frontend1.nyi.internal>
References: <CAHWD2rJNTxt2+=0rPkkc+323pTn-njkvJVgUE624LShu2xg1Eg@mail.gmail.com>
 <150b0aeef50.276e.4d489027c0c4d0c1b1ca03a1f48f1ffb@misanthropia.org>
 <20151028231728.1A96CC00019@frontend1.nyi.internal>
 <CAOsGNSThwv=c9K4v4HkD27PD+wY9+XykyTNOWs=7FOwPpxctZw@mail.gmail.com>
 <150b1290920.276e.4d489027c0c4d0c1b1ca03a1f48f1ffb@misanthropia.org>
 <20151029013945.C7D9FC00012@frontend1.nyi.internal>
 <CAHWD2rLJ0RgxcGZi=mKD=OfYYtCy1j9sfbzDKOVZuuX5EPCnJg@mail.gmail.com>
 <5632417A.3070402@riseup.net>
 <CAHWD2rL0jH=Kb=UiRArACMh49Wj_m+w8ZXWLtyVu8eU=Ruu+Cw@mail.gmail.com>
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Message-ID: <CAHWD2rL2hoh9-=htyYbuN1OM0qviQB+zsJzjk4Bj66naP0Rpbw@mail.gmail.com>

2015-10-29 18:35 GMT+01:00 Shelley <shelley at misanthropia.org>:

> The idea that one has to be "forced" to act in the common interest is
> disheartening, especially now.
>

I'm sorry, but there's only so much one will do with disregard of self.

I feel like this discussion has starved. There's a distinct lack of depth
and logic, and now the meaningless arguments are drying. There has been
naught in the way of designer societies, let alone the code we can write to
help get there. Mostly it's the powerless contemplating how fair it would
be if they weren't.
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From tom at vondein.org  Thu Oct 29 12:15:31 2015
From: tom at vondein.org (Tom)
Date: Thu, 29 Oct 2015 20:15:31 +0100
Subject: Cypherpunks is broken - Welcome to Secret Admirers
In-Reply-To: <48b20a0d7226de7ec81e6a2eefacbec0@ownbay.net>
References: <48b20a0d7226de7ec81e6a2eefacbec0@ownbay.net>
Message-ID: <20151029191531.GI97416@r4>

No.

On Thu, Oct 29, 2015 at 03:41:00PM +0000, Trent Secret Admirers wrote:
> It seems that the original Cypherpunks mailing list degraded into a
> debating society and very little new code is written.

How do you know?

> - The Secret Admirers mailing list (only reachable via Tor).

This is wrong on multiple levels. The most important one being, that I
will not hide for public communications. By going dark you will help
tighten the surveillance state and not fight it. Fighting against this
has to be done in public, otherwise the fight doesn't exist.

> - To become a full member of Secret Admirers you have to go through 
>   the application process (see below).

Who set those rules? And why?

>   Members are expected to communicate in a civilized manner

Ah, yet another "code of conduct"? Fuck it!

> - Followers get the same benefits as full members except voting rights
>   and bringing in followers.

"Followers" as in sect members?

>   If members stop being productive they risk loosing thei membership
    status.

And of course there's a process in place to handle cases where members
are ill, in holiday, jailed or whatever. 

> - Members who do not follow the rules will be ejected.

What kind of mailing list does this?


I call bullshit.



- Tom




From l at odewijk.nl  Thu Oct 29 12:40:53 2015
From: l at odewijk.nl (=?UTF-8?Q?Lodewijk_andr=C3=A9_de_la_porte?=)
Date: Thu, 29 Oct 2015 20:40:53 +0100
Subject: Shiny stuff and designer societies (addenda)
In-Reply-To: <20151029182639.A6B60C00013@frontend1.nyi.internal>
References: <CAHWD2rJNTxt2+=0rPkkc+323pTn-njkvJVgUE624LShu2xg1Eg@mail.gmail.com>
 <150b0aeef50.276e.4d489027c0c4d0c1b1ca03a1f48f1ffb@misanthropia.org>
 <20151028231728.1A96CC00019@frontend1.nyi.internal>
 <CAOsGNSThwv=c9K4v4HkD27PD+wY9+XykyTNOWs=7FOwPpxctZw@mail.gmail.com>
 <150b1290920.276e.4d489027c0c4d0c1b1ca03a1f48f1ffb@misanthropia.org>
 <20151029013945.C7D9FC00012@frontend1.nyi.internal>
 <CAHWD2rLJ0RgxcGZi=mKD=OfYYtCy1j9sfbzDKOVZuuX5EPCnJg@mail.gmail.com>
 <5632417A.3070402@riseup.net>
 <CAHWD2rL0jH=Kb=UiRArACMh49Wj_m+w8ZXWLtyVu8eU=Ruu+Cw@mail.gmail.com>
 <20151029173517.02E5CC00016@frontend1.nyi.internal>
 <CAHWD2rL2hoh9-=htyYbuN1OM0qviQB+zsJzjk4Bj66naP0Rpbw@mail.gmail.com>
 <20151029182639.A6B60C00013@frontend1.nyi.internal>
Message-ID: <CAHWD2r+n3_g9xahFEZaHX1C4HTNr9LORvc5=vqodPyf_GUjA8w@mail.gmail.com>

2015-10-29 19:26 GMT+01:00 Shelley <shelley at misanthropia.org>:

> On October 29, 2015 11:17:05 AM Lodewijk andré de la porte <l at odewijk.nl>
> wrote:
>
>>
>> I'm sorry, but there's only so much one will do with disregard of self.
>>
>> That speaks volumes of your character.


Hopefully that I'm a realistic person! Really not a kind thing to say :(
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From jdb10987 at yahoo.com  Thu Oct 29 13:48:22 2015
From: jdb10987 at yahoo.com (jim bell)
Date: Thu, 29 Oct 2015 20:48:22 +0000 (UTC)
Subject: The Economist checks in on "The promise of the blockchain"
In-Reply-To: <56327D3A.9090305@riseup.net>
References: <56327D3A.9090305@riseup.net>
Message-ID: <74419435.5279460.1446151702373.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com>

  From: Razer <Rayzer at riseup.net>
>The Economist
>The promise of the blockchain
>The trust machine
>The technology behind bitcoin could transform how the economy works

>Oct 31st 2015 | From the print edition

>BITCOIN has a bad reputation. The decentralised digital cryptocurrency,
>powered by a vast computer network, is notorious for the wild
>fluctuations in its value, the zeal of its supporters and its degenerate
>uses, such as extortion, buying drugs and hiring hitmen in the online
>bazaars of the “dark net”.
If anything, I would say that the problem is the LACK of "hiring hitmen in the online bazaars of the 'dark net'".    Silk Road apparently worked quite well in regards to allowing people a mechanism to sell illegal drugs.  
If even a single hitman had been hired, by a single customer, and proceeded to kill even a single target, things would look very different on all subsequent days.  If Sanjuro's "Assassination Market" taught us anything, it is that the public is quite ready for a fully-functioning AP-type system, whether it be based on Tor, Ethereum, Augur, or any other such mechanism.
         Jim Bell

  
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From oshwm at openmailbox.org  Thu Oct 29 14:02:02 2015
From: oshwm at openmailbox.org (oshwm)
Date: Thu, 29 Oct 2015 21:02:02 +0000
Subject: Cypherpunks is broken - Welcome to Secret Admirers
In-Reply-To: <E1ZrrSn-00079a-IM@elasmtp-curtail.atl.sa.earthlink.net>
References: <48b20a0d7226de7ec81e6a2eefacbec0@ownbay.net>
 <20151029162224.GA6666@antiproton.jfet.org>
 <20151029165911.B5C60C0001E@frontend1.nyi.internal>
 <CAHWD2rJZkULZ8fJXbjT_jov0WHfihT0LRYXjAH+QJH-tQH618Q@mail.gmail.com>
 <E1ZrrSn-00079a-IM@elasmtp-curtail.atl.sa.earthlink.net>
Message-ID: <5632894A.4040107@openmailbox.org>

I read this and thought how good this would sound as the intro to David
Bowie's Diamond Dogs :D

On 29/10/15 17:58, John Young wrote:
> Cypherpunks has produced a slew of offsprings who are confident
> the parents have been surpassed, are feeble, ghosts of their once
> own offsprings of offsprings of offsprings. Some have become
> mules unable to offspring so bray at one another neuteredly, some
> tote-packing jackasses for secretkeepers, some little horses in a
> geek carnival DEFCON, one a jester performing for food, bed
> and hookup in a banana republic's UK squat, another raising wild
> pussies on a hilltop armed to the gizzard against PETA warriors,
> several offshore heroined and drunk in hot tubs of rotgut financial
> shenanigans, others on a mechanical island harassed by EU
> revenuers and algorithmic mermaids, quite a few incarcerating
> themselves in courtrooms pursuing phantasms of conquering
> an NSA long out of date by new improved GQNSAFSB, half a
> dozen are dead, dying, diseased or headphoned heads mounted
> on mathematics college entablatures. One is a high official
> in DoD cybercommand-panic to the max, a twin doing the
> same for PRC. A small number of geezers continue to write
> code, that is hire kids to do that, but mostly consult to crypto
> cretinous corporations, suckle on NGO-tit extortions, deliver
> commodious farts on the speaker circuit, the best and brightest
> take long naps, buy weekly, monthly, yearly lap dances, search
> Google for their names, spit and shit blood, shed hair and flesh,
> burst into episodes of cackling obscure hashes in elliptic
> circles. Eyes and minds dim and flicker, maws whimper,
> broken teeth and code pukes down shirt fronts, dapper
> David Kahn dances into darkening visions of splendid
> failure, crooning No Such Agency to the solo female
> cpunk whose name is legend.
>
> At 01:21 PM 10/29/2015, you wrote:
>> Good luck!
>
>


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From admin at pilobilus.net  Thu Oct 29 18:06:08 2015
From: admin at pilobilus.net (Steve Kinney)
Date: Thu, 29 Oct 2015 21:06:08 -0400
Subject: Shiny stuff and designer societies (addenda)
In-Reply-To: <CAHWD2rL0jH=Kb=UiRArACMh49Wj_m+w8ZXWLtyVu8eU=Ruu+Cw@mail.gmail.com>
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 <5632417A.3070402@riseup.net>
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Message-ID: <5632C280.7080209@pilobilus.net>

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On 10/29/2015 01:18 PM, Lodewijk andré de la porte wrote:
> 2015-10-29 16:55 GMT+01:00 Razer <Rayzer at riseup.net 
> <mailto:Rayzer at riseup.net>>:
> 
> You use the word "I" a lot. I aim for a society where "We" is 
> primary.

Conflict resolution and nonviolent strategy training emphasize the
value of "I statements" because they personalize what one is
saying rather than appealing to some "authority" such as the
imagined Will of the People, the rules in a game nobody present
has volunteered to play, etc.  I like I statements, if only
because they make it all about me.

> The idea that you can force people to act in the common 
> interest has been tried many times. We prefer to have freedom, 
> nowadays. At least, I do.

(To be spoken in the voice of Max Headroom:)  Ah, freedom. Such a
glittering generality! It makes me want to march in a parade!

> Game theory puts wrenches in any collaborative action that's 
> not entirely individual centered. Go let the pigs ravage you, 
> I'll just wait to discuss an arrangement with them once
> they're through with you. I just hope you didn't give them
> absolutely unmatchable unfair advantages. (footnote: did you
> ever see a B-52 bomber in real life?)

The longevity of a culture tends to be inversely proportional to
the power of entirely self centered individuals in that culture.
Any collaborative action that's entirely individual centered
evolves into a murder/suicide machine, even if it does not start
out as one.  Lookit the good ole U.S.A. after 35 years of
Reganomics and Greed Is Good business ethics and corporate
culture.

Darwinian evolution does not favor the greedy, self-interested
individual. Darwinian evolution favors clusters of individuals
whose predisposition to take care of others assures that their Nth
generation progeny have the best shot at survival because they are
supported by a stable and resilient community.  When "the smartest
guys in the room" say otherwise, they are not mistaken:  They are
lying.

Collaborative actions based on a sane balance between individual
and community interests are possible, history provides numerous
examples at scales ranging from the family and village to tribe
and nation.  With the exception of defective individuals, human
beings are naturally inclined to form communities, to identify
with those communities, and to work in the common interests of
those communities.  I call the people who lack this natural
inclination "defective" as their actions tend toward negative
impacts on group survival in the long term.

Today we have a really big problem in the form of really big
countries:  Human communities do not scale to that size.  Compare
the "community values" performance of Iceland, population 1/3
million, to the performance of the good ole U.S.A., population
360+ million.

Attempts to scale community values to the size of a large country
always involve creating administrative classes, insular
communities of professionals in commercial and political
governance who facilitate artificial "bonds of community" between
massive numbers of strangers who will never meet.  Viola, rent
seeking absentee landlords who employ armed guards to enforce
their orders.  If communities regulated by these institutions are
small enough, it is possible for the people to regulate their
regulators; but somewhere between 1/3 and 300 million population,
the balance of power shifts disastrously toward the managerial
class, which becomes a ruling class.

Expositions of political theory are supposed to end with a formula
for creating Utopian outcomes, and a call to action.  Sorry, I'm
out of stock on those items and the shop down the street was
busted for selling toxic imitations.  But I do think that those
who occupy themselves with building, maintaining and defending
sane communities, where and as opportunities to do so arise, will
be big winners compared to those who remain attached to
authoritarian top-down rule by any name.












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From grarpamp at gmail.com  Thu Oct 29 19:04:16 2015
From: grarpamp at gmail.com (grarpamp)
Date: Thu, 29 Oct 2015 22:04:16 -0400
Subject: Fwd: [guardian-dev] Ripple: reliable panic trigger
In-Reply-To: <5632B829.80503@guardianproject.info>
References: <5632B829.80503@guardianproject.info>
Message-ID: <CAD2Ti29riufMK9kSvPO-r_+hfefQ3aiEhLvv4o81LO486VPWiA@mail.gmail.com>

---------- Forwarded message ----------
From: Hans-Christoph Steiner <hans at guardianproject.info>
To: Guardian Dev <guardian-dev at lists.mayfirst.org>

For the "Ripple" panic trigger app, I just put together a trigger sequence
that is meant to be self-explanatory, and be very difficult to accidentally
set off. This is for the "delete everything" panic setup, so you want to be
sure that you don't mistakenly set it off. This is for use cases where the
user has some time to do it, and are not super rushed, so for example,
crossing a border or in an office that is being raided.

You can see screenshots of the trigger sequence here:
https://dev.guardianproject.info/boards/21/topics/379

And here is more about the design of Ripple:
https://dev.guardianproject.info/boards/21/topics/366

Here is a test build that can be used with the latest Zom to test panic:
https://guardianproject.info/builds/Ripple/Ripple-debug.apk
https://guardianproject.info/builds/Ripple/Ripple-debug.apk.asc

.hc

PGP fingerprint: 5E61 C878 0F86 295C E17D  8677 9F0F E587 374B BE81
List info: https://lists.mayfirst.org/mailman/listinfo/guardian-dev




From l at odewijk.nl  Thu Oct 29 14:23:39 2015
From: l at odewijk.nl (=?UTF-8?Q?Lodewijk_andr=C3=A9_de_la_porte?=)
Date: Thu, 29 Oct 2015 22:23:39 +0100
Subject: Shiny stuff and designer societies
In-Reply-To: <56327869.361f8c0a.efb1c.692d@mx.google.com>
References: <CAHWD2rJNTxt2+=0rPkkc+323pTn-njkvJVgUE624LShu2xg1Eg@mail.gmail.com>
 <150b0aeef50.276e.4d489027c0c4d0c1b1ca03a1f48f1ffb@misanthropia.org>
 <20151028231728.1A96CC00019@frontend1.nyi.internal>
 <CAOsGNSThwv=c9K4v4HkD27PD+wY9+XykyTNOWs=7FOwPpxctZw@mail.gmail.com>
 <150b1290920.276e.4d489027c0c4d0c1b1ca03a1f48f1ffb@misanthropia.org>
 <20151029013945.C7D9FC00012@frontend1.nyi.internal>
 <CAHWD2rLJ0RgxcGZi=mKD=OfYYtCy1j9sfbzDKOVZuuX5EPCnJg@mail.gmail.com>
 <56327869.361f8c0a.efb1c.692d@mx.google.com>
Message-ID: <CAHWD2rLBHnMHYnLZfYWfvvY9vQnxxrTp5Pk88H5mFoXO6+KW7g@mail.gmail.com>

Thanks Juan :)

2015-10-29 20:56 GMT+01:00 Juan <juan.g71 at gmail.com>:

> On Thu, 29 Oct 2015 16:19:29 +0100
> Lodewijk andré de la porte <l at odewijk.nl> wrote:
> > Juan:
> > > That sounds like true capitalism (savings) whereas the system
> > > Lodewijk is advertising is mercantilism/consumerism/fascism.
> >
> >  I argued that time expended readily outweighs cost saved.
>
>         I argue that the market is distorted by the financial mafia, by
>         big (and even some small) business, by public 'education' (makes
>         people stupid) by religion (makes peoples stupid *and* evil), by
>         'fashion' (advertising) - and more.
>
>         As a result, people buy useless and 'fashionable' stuff,
>         produced by privileged firms, and financed by 'cheap' (i.e. fake)
> credit.
>

I mostly agree. I hope the situation will better. I think one of the big
things that's needed is a superior alternative to Republics. From there,
something so fundamental, perhaps we can see more improvements. (note: I'd
like your suggestions)


> > Not anything else. (I have fixed things for fun and cost savings, like
> > Razer argued makes sense, but then it's entertainment - not
> > economically wise choices)
>
>         'economically wise' choices can be made in a free market, not
>         in the current mercantilistic/fascist system.
>

There's still wise choices in a skewed system. They're just not always
realistic, sometimes even bizarre. The better the system the better the
wise choice.


        So a criminal monopoly is going to define what 'justice' is,
>         and enforce it, too.
>

What's worse, it'll redefine criminal!

        You can keep repeating absurd, mainstream propaganda without
>         any regard to logic, but what's the point? What can you
>         achieve?
>

Complex agreements, abstaining from violence, huge organizations, etc.
These are valuable, aren't they?

Ideally, there's a political game that is able to generate "appropriate"
political choices. It's not a republic, a trade union, tribal
understandings, etc, etc, per se, but there's always something.

Without this system we are screwed anyway. If we do have that system we
*should* use it.

And we can use it to determine the absolute widest boundaries of what is
permitted, boundaries which you may not wander out of. We can produce
incentive schemes, to encourage the correct behavior. In fact, if the
system works it needs no restrictions.

We've yet to find a system that works. (also on the account of those pesky
flawed humans making up the systems)

> and 2. invest in the advancement
> > of the human race (think space travel, science).
>
>         So your criminal monopoly is not only going to pretend that
>         their crimes are 'just' and 'fair'. They are so enlightened that
>         they are also going to 'advance' 'science'.
>
>         Come on Lodewijk. Why don't you do your homework? Learn the ABC
>         of poltical theory.
>

I tried doing homework, but the books were full of propaganda.

Do tell me Juan, how do we prevent a "criminal monopoly"? Isn't it better
to make a very good "criminal monopoly"?


> > But, there is no nations.
>
> Ah, so your monopoly of crime is going to tyranize the whole
> planet. Cute.
>

The system spans the globe, the crimes are all the peoples'.


> > That is to say, a mixed economy. Again.
> > > mercantilism/fascim/state socialism/state communism.
> >
> > I think some products are best rendered without competition, and some
> > are best rendered with competition.
>
>         I think your baseless, economically ignorant opinions are just
>         that. Baseless and ignorant.
>
>         Plus, you thik you have the 'right' to force people to conform
>         to your 'utopia'. Do you mind explaining how you acquired that
> 'right'?
>         <----fundamental question.
>
>         Do you mind answering fundamental questions?
>

Well, atm I'm still dreaming up the utopia. So far I have no convertees,
either :)

I have the right because I can. Powers *are* rights. Or, rather, rights do
not exist until a criminal monopoly invents justice, and grants people a
promise of abstaining from using power; a right.

IIRC you have this philosophy of inalienable rights, or natural rights, or
rights you would always claim, whatever. It doesn't matter. If you haven't
the power to claim a right, you do not have it. Ask the pigs, cows,
rabbits, ferrits, birds, and all the other animals we do whatever we want
to. Ask the mountains thought to have spirits. Listen to them and you will
hear but weeping for lack of strength.

Ofc, I'm the asshole for saying this.

I think in practice it will be easier to make the system a compelling
opt-in. If you don't want to be in it, it is probably not good enough. It's
important to be a bit selfish, not help people that don't opt-in. It's only
fair ;)


> > So long as the drive to do best
> > exists we do not really need to replicate effort. Eg: Patents are
> > only good for preventing people from using the best available
> > methods. It's a hack to make investments more worthwhile, and secrecy
> > less important. If we didn't need a profit incentive there would be
> > no need for patents.
>
>         So, you are also defending the 'intellectual property' mafia?
>

I stated "it makes investments more worthwhile, and secrecy less
important". I think most people that have patents don't need their
investments to be even more worthwhile. I think patent licensing systems
like mpeg, dolby, proprietary connectors, etc, do not help anyone. I think
copyright has crippled the economy and creativity, and served mostly to
produce Justin Bieber.

I do like that there's no more (at least much less) need for secrecy. And I
like the idea that an independent inventor is able to to make a living.
There's some research-only companies that have a very good market position
thanks to copyright law, whereas otherwise they'd be at the whims of
producing companies.

Understand, then improve upon.


>         It's a 'necessary evil'? (doubly retarded since you don't
>         believe in 'evil' eh? )
>

I honestly do not know.

This is a very complex issue spanning all industries. I think the patent
system is a steaming pile of mercantile shit. The core idea is not so crazy
though - idea's can be stolen, so they must be property. But you don't lose
the idea when it gets stolen.

It ruins the creative industries - we've made our fantasies protected
property, subject not to the potential for art but the will of businessmen.
Countless stories go untold. The stories that do get told are smudged with
corporate inserts and ruinous inserted political messages. (look for
racism/feminist inserts, they're everywhere and they usually fail to
actually be unracist or feminist)

Software is such a broken industry (thanks huge sw companies!) that any
sense of right or wrong is already pre-broken. I think software was
probably more fun when nobody could protect it. We could develop software
based on bounties. There's another game theory problem, but at least
software would be fun again. (note: copyright is ineffective at protecting
software atm, if it were effective the market might actually be well
developed but still not fun)

Should Kia be allowed to copy exactly what Ford is doing? It seems like
theft to me. Ford invested and created something (a car design), why should
Kia customers not pay for that effort? Secrecy is an expensive (and
impractical) solution.

Fortunately, if we just let them figure it out they will have to find the
optimal way of dealing with it. Not us. I think merging all car companies,
making manufacture a non-market activity (product price = costs + 10%
instead), sales can still do whatever it does now, allow the designers to
self-organize and support the projects they believe in, reward them more
when their products work out.


> > A similar argument is possible for shrewd advertising, why lie to
> > people if you do not profit from it? One helps everyone most by
> > providing correct information. (*this is not true, people regularly
> > need to be coerced to act in their best interests.
>
>         Sure. What if I beat you to a pulp? For your own good of
>         course. Oh, 'your own good' is whatever I say it is. I am the
>         government.
>

I don't see where this goes. Perhaps a powers = rights argument?

> But coercion for
> > the better is really not that bad.)
>
>         Okay. You can keep repeating the same totalitarian
>         'progressive' nonsense ad nauseam. But I had enough.
>

Sorry.


> > In the real world we oft encounter duopolies. Basically a monopoly
> > with a state-protected laggard. The monopolist ensures the laggard
> > continues existing, for example by increasing it's own prices to a
> > kind of unreasonable height. That ensures sales for the laggard, and
> > maximum profit. Basically this whole system is then fucked, as there
> > is no real drive for advancement (the laggard cannot overtake the
> > monopolist, it has not the funds. But it also cannot fail, the
> > monopolist prevents it. So why even put up a fight?) and humanity is
> > helped no better than the laggard performs. It happens with all our
> > huge markets, from shipping to silicon to telecom to food to housing
> > to government to diamonds, etc, etc, etc, etc, etc.
> >
>
> Clueless rambling. Or ill intentioned, self-serving propaganda.
>

Microsoft/Apple, Intel/AMD, ATI/Nvidia, most telecoms actually form cartels
with more than 2.

The basic principles are:
* There is a market leader
* There is competition
* If the market leader claims the entire market, it will be destroyed by
government (anti-monopoly law)
* The market leader will calibrate it's effort to stop short of claiming
the entire market (likely preferring to reward shareholders, divest, etc)
* If the competition advances, the market leader will advance as much (it
has more resources to advance, and will typically succeed at maintaining
it's lead)
* Any advance the competition makes is now wasted, as the market leader
will match the advancement
* The competition has no reason to advance, except upon itself (other
competition)

I'm not so wise on the world, I am no expert on the actual state of markets
and corporations. I'm sure someone reading is.

> > Lodewijk is just a run of the mill fascist who thinks he has
> > > the 'god given' right to 'design' 'society' according to his
> > > fuckingly retarded tastes.
> > >
> > > Also, he likes to pretend that the bad outcomes of his fascist
> > > system are caused by innocent lambs who actually want to do the
> > > 'right' thing. Sick.
> > >
> >
> > I'm too minarchist to be a facist, but otherwise you're spot on. Try
> > not to confuse my designs with the current world.I am not a
> > supporter of the status quo,
>
> ...says a supporter of the status quo who is parroting
> mainstream propaganda in a more or less radical mailing list.
>

I rarely get accused of being mainstream. I almost feel normal now.

Please don't mistake pointing out advantages for being a supporter.


> > but I will attempt to understand it, and
> > I will say there's hardly an evil actor out there.
>
>         Well, I can say the moon is made of cheese.
>

What if it is?


> > We just collectively fuck up according to our fuckingly retarded tastes.
>


>         Sure. Soldiers and wall street bankers are just as innocent as
>         4 year old children.


Some 4 year old children are soldiers. Bankers are ageist and pretentious,
so they prefer white 25 to 60 year olds (in-corporate ranks are age-pinned).
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From seanl at literati.org  Thu Oct 29 15:27:46 2015
From: seanl at literati.org (Sean Lynch)
Date: Thu, 29 Oct 2015 22:27:46 +0000
Subject: Shiny stuff and designer societies (addenda)
In-Reply-To: <5632417A.3070402@riseup.net>
References: <CAHWD2rJNTxt2+=0rPkkc+323pTn-njkvJVgUE624LShu2xg1Eg@mail.gmail.com>
 <150b0aeef50.276e.4d489027c0c4d0c1b1ca03a1f48f1ffb@misanthropia.org>
 <20151028231728.1A96CC00019@frontend1.nyi.internal>
 <CAOsGNSThwv=c9K4v4HkD27PD+wY9+XykyTNOWs=7FOwPpxctZw@mail.gmail.com>
 <150b1290920.276e.4d489027c0c4d0c1b1ca03a1f48f1ffb@misanthropia.org>
 <20151029013945.C7D9FC00012@frontend1.nyi.internal>
 <CAHWD2rLJ0RgxcGZi=mKD=OfYYtCy1j9sfbzDKOVZuuX5EPCnJg@mail.gmail.com>
 <5632417A.3070402@riseup.net>
Message-ID: <CAHKdp-=YBD8ZokGvWOc0s359nESwXQMkR_3RnVJD0saWUZOA-A@mail.gmail.com>

On Thu, Oct 29, 2015 at 9:02 AM Razer <Rayzer at riseup.net> wrote:

> You use the word "I" a lot. I aim for a society where "We" is primary.
>
>
I aim for the heads of people who aim for such a society, because "we" is a
fiction. It is just a way of saying "I" while pretending you have others'
interests in mind. You can only speak for yourself. Trying to speak for
anyone else who has not asked you to is just another form of coercion.
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From mob at mbox301.swipnet.se  Thu Oct 29 14:43:26 2015
From: mob at mbox301.swipnet.se (Mob)
Date: Thu, 29 Oct 2015 22:43:26 +0100
Subject: Cypherpunks is broken
In-Reply-To: <E1ZrrSn-00079a-IM@elasmtp-curtail.atl.sa.earthlink.net>
References: <48b20a0d7226de7ec81e6a2eefacbec0@ownbay.net>
 <20151029162224.GA6666@antiproton.jfet.org>
 <20151029165911.B5C60C0001E@frontend1.nyi.internal>
 <CAHWD2rJZkULZ8fJXbjT_jov0WHfihT0LRYXjAH+QJH-tQH618Q@mail.gmail.com>
 <E1ZrrSn-00079a-IM@elasmtp-curtail.atl.sa.earthlink.net>
Message-ID: <563292FE.2070405@mbox301.swipnet.se>

John Young wrote:
> ...half a dozen are dead, dying, diseased...

TCM?

  - - Mob




From zen at freedbms.net  Thu Oct 29 17:20:36 2015
From: zen at freedbms.net (Zenaan Harkness)
Date: Fri, 30 Oct 2015 00:20:36 +0000
Subject: Shiny stuff and designer societies (addenda)
In-Reply-To: <CAHWD2rL2hoh9-=htyYbuN1OM0qviQB+zsJzjk4Bj66naP0Rpbw@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAHWD2rJNTxt2+=0rPkkc+323pTn-njkvJVgUE624LShu2xg1Eg@mail.gmail.com>
 <150b0aeef50.276e.4d489027c0c4d0c1b1ca03a1f48f1ffb@misanthropia.org>
 <20151028231728.1A96CC00019@frontend1.nyi.internal>
 <CAOsGNSThwv=c9K4v4HkD27PD+wY9+XykyTNOWs=7FOwPpxctZw@mail.gmail.com>
 <150b1290920.276e.4d489027c0c4d0c1b1ca03a1f48f1ffb@misanthropia.org>
 <20151029013945.C7D9FC00012@frontend1.nyi.internal>
 <CAHWD2rLJ0RgxcGZi=mKD=OfYYtCy1j9sfbzDKOVZuuX5EPCnJg@mail.gmail.com>
 <5632417A.3070402@riseup.net>
 <CAHWD2rL0jH=Kb=UiRArACMh49Wj_m+w8ZXWLtyVu8eU=Ruu+Cw@mail.gmail.com>
 <20151029173517.02E5CC00016@frontend1.nyi.internal>
 <CAHWD2rL2hoh9-=htyYbuN1OM0qviQB+zsJzjk4Bj66naP0Rpbw@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAOsGNSSv2AudRp+zgpiSiFPzWkn18o8bDRK_8H23Gb0DYqJtsQ@mail.gmail.com>

On 10/29/15, Lodewijk andré de la porte <l at odewijk.nl> wrote:
> There has been
> naught in the way of designer societies,

Well there have been many many attempts at small(ish) 'utopian'
communities over the last century or more, and none has outlasted
their founders (I think Gatto pointed this out but I can't find an
immediate reference sorry) and many have ended in, attention holding,
ways.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Utopian_community




From zen at freedbms.net  Thu Oct 29 17:29:23 2015
From: zen at freedbms.net (Zenaan Harkness)
Date: Fri, 30 Oct 2015 00:29:23 +0000
Subject: Shiny stuff and designer societies (addenda)
In-Reply-To: <20151029182639.A6B60C00013@frontend1.nyi.internal>
References: <CAHWD2rJNTxt2+=0rPkkc+323pTn-njkvJVgUE624LShu2xg1Eg@mail.gmail.com>
 <150b0aeef50.276e.4d489027c0c4d0c1b1ca03a1f48f1ffb@misanthropia.org>
 <20151028231728.1A96CC00019@frontend1.nyi.internal>
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 <CAHWD2rLJ0RgxcGZi=mKD=OfYYtCy1j9sfbzDKOVZuuX5EPCnJg@mail.gmail.com>
 <5632417A.3070402@riseup.net>
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 <20151029173517.02E5CC00016@frontend1.nyi.internal>
 <CAHWD2rL2hoh9-=htyYbuN1OM0qviQB+zsJzjk4Bj66naP0Rpbw@mail.gmail.com>
 <20151029182639.A6B60C00013@frontend1.nyi.internal>
Message-ID: <CAOsGNSQwQO5n8aDXsdeYqtNEtucej0GaG=2s8aiPcWGtdQUE6Q@mail.gmail.com>

On 10/29/15, Shelley <shelley at misanthropia.org> wrote:
> On October 29, 2015 11:17:05 AM Lodewijk andré de la porte <l at odewijk.nl>
> wrote:
>> I'm sorry, but there's only so much one will do with disregard of self.
>
> That speaks volumes of your character.

I read Lodewijk's comment as a generalised statement on the current
predominant nature of 'Western' (perhaps all) people. As in "how
things are" not "how I am and how I want the world to be".

Character attack is sometimes not be in the interests of constructive dialogue.

Inspiration for a 'better' world is a good thing. Resignation over the
current world is a common thing. Finding a point of compassion in our
conversations with each other is something I have failed at too many
times.

Regards,
Zenaan




From shelley at misanthropia.org  Fri Oct 30 06:23:17 2015
From: shelley at misanthropia.org (Shelley)
Date: Fri, 30 Oct 2015 06:23:17 -0700
Subject: Shiny stuff and designer societies
In-Reply-To: <CAOsGNSSmAAeXSyjh2g1+mFNLFRaqE_1MR3Cxm10gROEBTqn+Bg@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAHWD2rJNTxt2+=0rPkkc+323pTn-njkvJVgUE624LShu2xg1Eg@mail.gmail.com>
 <150b0aeef50.276e.4d489027c0c4d0c1b1ca03a1f48f1ffb@misanthropia.org>
 <20151028231728.1A96CC00019@frontend1.nyi.internal>
 <CAOsGNSThwv=c9K4v4HkD27PD+wY9+XykyTNOWs=7FOwPpxctZw@mail.gmail.com>
 <150b1290920.276e.4d489027c0c4d0c1b1ca03a1f48f1ffb@misanthropia.org>
 <20151029013945.C7D9FC00012@frontend1.nyi.internal>
 <CAHWD2rLJ0RgxcGZi=mKD=OfYYtCy1j9sfbzDKOVZuuX5EPCnJg@mail.gmail.com>
 <56327869.361f8c0a.efb1c.692d@mx.google.com>
 <CAHWD2rLBHnMHYnLZfYWfvvY9vQnxxrTp5Pk88H5mFoXO6+KW7g@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAOsGNSSmAAeXSyjh2g1+mFNLFRaqE_1MR3Cxm10gROEBTqn+Bg@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <20151030132300.8D73E6800D5@frontend2.nyi.internal>

On October 30, 2015 6:08:40 AM Zenaan Harkness <zen at freedbms.net> wrote:

> On 10/29/15, Lodewijk andré de la porte <l at odewijk.nl> wrote:
> > Thanks Juan :)
> > 2015-10-29 20:56 GMT+01:00 Juan <juan.g71 at gmail.com>:
> >> On Thu, 29 Oct 2015 16:19:29 +0100
> >> Lodewijk andré de la porte <l at odewijk.nl> wrote:
> >> > Juan:
>
> >> > That is to say, a mixed economy. Again.
> >> > > mercantilism/fascim/state socialism/state communism.
> >> >
> >> > I think some products are best rendered without competition, and some
> >> > are best rendered with competition.
> >>
> >>         I think your baseless, economically ignorant opinions are just
> >>         that. Baseless and ignorant.
> >>
> >>         Plus, you thik you have the 'right' to force people to conform
> >>         to your 'utopia'. Do you mind explaining how you acquired that
> >> 'right'?
> >>         <----fundamental question.
> >>
> >>         Do you mind answering fundamental questions?
> >
> > Well, atm I'm still dreaming up the utopia. So far I have no convertees,
> > either :)
>
> Indeed.
>
> > I have the right because I can.
>
> Sure.
>
> I have the right to intimately engage your skull with a hammer,
> because I can. That would be a predatorial right, sociopathic, mad,
> evil etc (not to mention illegal in our Western democratic system),
> -and- there's nothing in such an experience, i.e. exercise of said
> predatorial right, which I would want; so, you can confidently trust
> this would never happen :)
>
> But not everyone thinks like me. You see, some people think like you.
>

Yes, yes: this.  This.

Can I just exhibit obnoxious netiquette and +1 your entire reply?  You've 
said it all very well and with more eloquence than I can muster.

-S

P.S. Thank you for your other thoughtful reply.

P.P.S. Fuckity fuck fucking fuck x over 9,000 ;)



> > Powers *are* rights.
>
> Sort of: power suggests capacity, and capacity or ability implies a
> natural right. A natural right, is that right which exists by your
> natural capacity, or as you said "because I can".
>
> I have natural rights to move, to communicate, to associate, to
> breathe, to survive, to predate.
>
> Some people really struggle with the reality of that last one. Yes, it
> can be confronting. As a good friend of mine Malcolm says, the lion
> has a predatorial right over the gazelle.
>
>
> > Or, rather, rights do
> > not exist until a criminal monopoly invents justice,
>
> Now that's one fucked up statement. You are possibly referring to
> "statutory" rights, or simply to domination "you pay me for
> protection, and I shall let you continue to sell hot dogs."  The mafia
> exercises many variations on the predatorial right to dominate others.
>
> Our demoncratic governments school us to believe that government
> exercise of power over us, i.e. dominating us, is in our "best
> interest" - it is in your best interest to pay protection tax, to pay
> mafia highway robbery road tolls (which go to banks, most often for
> roads already paid for), to lose your "license" priviledge to drive/
> travel/ survive (go to work) within your society.
>
>
> > and grants people a
> > promise of abstaining from using power; a right.
>
> Time to start typing less, with more thought put into each part of
> each sentence, to produce a greater quality result. Perhaps brief up
> on axiomatic logic.
>
>
> > IIRC you have this philosophy of inalienable rights, or natural rights, or
> > rights you would always claim, whatever. It doesn't matter. If you haven't
> > the power to claim a right, you do not have it. Ask the pigs, cows,
> > rabbits, ferrits, birds, and all the other animals we do whatever we want
> > to. Ask the mountains thought to have spirits. Listen to them and you will
> > hear but weeping for lack of strength.
> >
> > Ofc, I'm the asshole for saying this.
>
> Your heart is heard. Stay true to that which inspires you. Yes there
> is much that is grave and wrong in the world today. Let's do the best
> we can to understand our programming and so take a step towards
> understanding and the possibility of exercising a worthy authority
> arising within our hearts.
>
> Peace,
> Zenaan
>





From jdb10987 at yahoo.com  Fri Oct 30 00:42:55 2015
From: jdb10987 at yahoo.com (jim bell)
Date: Fri, 30 Oct 2015 07:42:55 +0000 (UTC)
Subject: The Black List
References: <288409029.5467969.1446190975206.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <288409029.5467969.1446190975206.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com>

A friend called last night, alerting me to a show called "The Black List".  Apparently that episode involved an AP-type plot.  Unfortunately, I only saw the last third or so of the show.  http://www.nbc.com/the-blacklist/episodes?__source=360i_NBC_TVE_2015&WT.srch=Google&hcoref=Search&nlcid=TheBlacklistIt is probably episide 305, air date 10/29/2015; within a day or so it will be watchable on the website above, I think.
I should probably demand a story royalty.             Jim Bell
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From hettinga at gmail.com  Fri Oct 30 05:29:42 2015
From: hettinga at gmail.com (Robert Hettinga)
Date: Fri, 30 Oct 2015 08:29:42 -0400
Subject: Cypherpunks is broken - Welcome to Secret Admirers
In-Reply-To: <E1ZrrSn-00079a-IM@elasmtp-curtail.atl.sa.earthlink.net>
References: <48b20a0d7226de7ec81e6a2eefacbec0@ownbay.net>
 <20151029162224.GA6666@antiproton.jfet.org>
 <20151029165911.B5C60C0001E@frontend1.nyi.internal>
 <CAHWD2rJZkULZ8fJXbjT_jov0WHfihT0LRYXjAH+QJH-tQH618Q@mail.gmail.com>
 <E1ZrrSn-00079a-IM@elasmtp-curtail.atl.sa.earthlink.net>
Message-ID: <450C9797-D28C-4451-AB22-B0B596F02A51@gmail.com>


> On Oct 29, 2015, at 1:58 PM, John Young <jya at pipeline.com> wrote:
> 
> Cypherpunks has produced a slew of offsprings who are confident
> the parents have been surpassed, are feeble, ghosts of their once
> own offsprings of offsprings of offsprings. Some have become
> mules unable to offspring so bray at one another neuteredly, some
> tote-packing jackasses for secretkeepers, some little horses in a
> geek carnival DEFCON, one a jester performing for food, bed
> and hookup in a banana republic's UK squat, another raising wild
> pussies on a hilltop armed to the gizzard against PETA warriors,
> several offshore heroined and drunk in hot tubs of rotgut financial
> shenanigans, others on a mechanical island harassed by EU
> revenuers and algorithmic mermaids, quite a few incarcerating
> themselves in courtrooms pursuing phantasms of conquering
> an NSA long out of date by new improved GQNSAFSB, half a
> dozen are dead, dying, diseased or headphoned heads mounted
> on mathematics college entablatures. One is a high official
> in DoD cybercommand-panic to the max, a twin doing the
> same for PRC. A small number of geezers continue to write
> code, that is hire kids to do that, but mostly consult to crypto
> cretinous corporations, suckle on NGO-tit extortions, deliver
> commodious farts on the speaker circuit, the best and brightest
> take long naps, buy weekly, monthly, yearly lap dances, search
> Google for their names, spit and shit blood, shed hair and flesh,
> burst into episodes of cackling obscure hashes in elliptic
> circles. Eyes and minds dim and flicker, maws whimper,
> broken teeth and code pukes down shirt fronts, dapper
> David Kahn dances into darkening visions of splendid
> failure, crooning No Such Agency to the solo female
> cpunk whose name is legend.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-Fulz4ytZ54

Cheers,
RAH





From Rayzer at riseup.net  Fri Oct 30 09:29:03 2015
From: Rayzer at riseup.net (Razer)
Date: Fri, 30 Oct 2015 09:29:03 -0700
Subject: Shiny stuff and designer societies (addenda)
In-Reply-To: <CAOsGNSSv2AudRp+zgpiSiFPzWkn18o8bDRK_8H23Gb0DYqJtsQ@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAHWD2rJNTxt2+=0rPkkc+323pTn-njkvJVgUE624LShu2xg1Eg@mail.gmail.com>
 <150b0aeef50.276e.4d489027c0c4d0c1b1ca03a1f48f1ffb@misanthropia.org>
 <20151028231728.1A96CC00019@frontend1.nyi.internal>
 <CAOsGNSThwv=c9K4v4HkD27PD+wY9+XykyTNOWs=7FOwPpxctZw@mail.gmail.com>
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 <20151029013945.C7D9FC00012@frontend1.nyi.internal>
 <CAHWD2rLJ0RgxcGZi=mKD=OfYYtCy1j9sfbzDKOVZuuX5EPCnJg@mail.gmail.com>
 <5632417A.3070402@riseup.net>
 <CAHWD2rL0jH=Kb=UiRArACMh49Wj_m+w8ZXWLtyVu8eU=Ruu+Cw@mail.gmail.com>
 <20151029173517.02E5CC00016@frontend1.nyi.internal>
 <CAHWD2rL2hoh9-=htyYbuN1OM0qviQB+zsJzjk4Bj66naP0Rpbw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAOsGNSSv2AudRp+zgpiSiFPzWkn18o8bDRK_8H23Gb0DYqJtsQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <56339ACF.6000200@riseup.net>

On 10/29/2015 05:20 PM, Zenaan Harkness wrote:
> On 10/29/15, Lodewijk andré de la porte <l at odewijk.nl> wrote:
>> There has been
>> naught in the way of designer societies,
> Well there have been many many attempts at small(ish) 'utopian'
> communities over the last century or more, and none has outlasted
> their founders (I think Gatto pointed this out but I can't find an
> immediate reference sorry) and many have ended in, attention holding,
> ways.
>
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Utopian_community
>
>

Really! Rainbow Family of the Living Light.

The "Founders" are EVERY SINGLE PERSON who attends.

Save us from charismatic cults called 'utopian' as example of anything
except Fascism.

Welcome home!
https://duckduckgo.com/?t=lm&q=Rainbow+Family+of+the+Living+Light

If you read this article > "Lakota Warriors Vow to Crush Dirty Rainbow
Hippies"
http://www.thedailybeast.com/articles/2015/06/20/lakota-warriors-vow-to-crush-dirty-rainbow-hippies.html
(Daily Beast) do note the end result. The Lakota nation and Rainbow
tribe allied at this last annual July 4th gathering to protect the Black
Hills https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tP9YATzAmQs (five part documentary
about the '15 gathering) (also note the senior editor for the Daily
Beast has close acquaintances in al-Nusra Syria which is why their Syria
reporting reads like CIA disinfo. The Daily Beast is not a news source
of record. It's internet-asswipe).

RR

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From zen at freedbms.net  Fri Oct 30 02:45:14 2015
From: zen at freedbms.net (Zenaan Harkness)
Date: Fri, 30 Oct 2015 09:45:14 +0000
Subject: Fwd: Amish man sues government to buy firearm without photo ID
In-Reply-To: <1DBAEE53BBD942208581F479125E925B@atii>
References: <1DBAEE53BBD942208581F479125E925B@atii>
Message-ID: <CAOsGNSTg_ACrneefSAgFsr9r6njywDOhD_X87UERV9agNVqVTA@mail.gmail.com>

One for supporting. In fact, anyone know -how- he could be supported?
Z

---------- Forwarded message ----------
Date: Fri, 30 Oct 2015 18:04:57 +1100
Subject: Amish man sues government to buy firearm without photo ID

If Mr. Hertzler wins his lawsuit against the U.S. federal government
it may set an interesting legal precedent for religious Australian's
who want to obtain a gun licence without photo ID.

I believe that any sane, reasonably minded human without a serious
criminal record has a natural law, common law and a human rights to
own and bear guns for recreation, self-defence and protection of their
life, liberty and property. You certainly cannot trust government or
the police to protect you and your loved ones 24/7 against armed
criminals.

Jim



Amish man sues government to buy firearm without photo ID

Amish man sues government to buy firearm without photo ID, claiming
the requirement oppresses his religious freedom

  a.. Amish Andrew Hertzler was refused a gun without photo identification.
  b.. He claims Amish view photographs violation of Second Commandment.
  c.. Hertzler says requirement for photo ID oppresses his religious freedom.
  d.. He's filed lawsuit against government for right to buy gun
without a photo.
Article continues at:
http://beforeitsnews.com/alternative/2015/10/amish-man-sues-government-to-buy-firearm-without-photo-id-3235558.html




From zen at freedbms.net  Fri Oct 30 02:56:29 2015
From: zen at freedbms.net (Zenaan Harkness)
Date: Fri, 30 Oct 2015 09:56:29 +0000
Subject: The Black List
In-Reply-To: <288409029.5467969.1446190975206.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com>
References: <288409029.5467969.1446190975206.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com>
 <288409029.5467969.1446190975206.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <CAOsGNSRtcpFPJwbBiSM887a8fw8-gBcvjWH8miK=XFML1w1CUA@mail.gmail.com>

On 10/30/15, jim bell <jdb10987 at yahoo.com> wrote:
...
> I should probably demand a story royalty.             Jim Bell

Perhaps they would consider a donation to you or some JBell approved
destination.
:)




From Rayzer at riseup.net  Fri Oct 30 09:56:35 2015
From: Rayzer at riseup.net (Razer)
Date: Fri, 30 Oct 2015 09:56:35 -0700
Subject: Shiny stuff and designer societies (addenda)
In-Reply-To: <CAHKdp-kzwaD8u9+P2y=zrVvPOu64sZLdL6kw9y9ZhByz_B1sNg@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAHWD2rJNTxt2+=0rPkkc+323pTn-njkvJVgUE624LShu2xg1Eg@mail.gmail.com>
 <150b0aeef50.276e.4d489027c0c4d0c1b1ca03a1f48f1ffb@misanthropia.org>
 <20151028231728.1A96CC00019@frontend1.nyi.internal>
 <CAOsGNSThwv=c9K4v4HkD27PD+wY9+XykyTNOWs=7FOwPpxctZw@mail.gmail.com>
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 <CAHWD2rLJ0RgxcGZi=mKD=OfYYtCy1j9sfbzDKOVZuuX5EPCnJg@mail.gmail.com>
 <5632417A.3070402@riseup.net>
 <CAHKdp-=YBD8ZokGvWOc0s359nESwXQMkR_3RnVJD0saWUZOA-A@mail.gmail.com>
 <5632A554.60601@riseup.net>
 <CAHKdp-kzwaD8u9+P2y=zrVvPOu64sZLdL6kw9y9ZhByz_B1sNg@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <5633A143.3010809@riseup.net>



On 10/30/2015 09:52 AM, Sean Lynch wrote:

> Something that one might call "societal equality" is of interest to
> me, too. But different people have different ideas of what that means. 

And that is the point of commonality we work from. The idea is to work
towards more of that commonality without sacrificing our individual
ethics or morals. Ideas are the 'mutable' element.

RR

>
>
> On Thu, Oct 29, 2015 at 4:08 PM Razer <Rayzer at riseup.net
> <mailto:Rayzer at riseup.net>> wrote:
>
>
>
>     On 10/29/2015 03:27 PM, Sean Lynch wrote:
>     > On Thu, Oct 29, 2015 at 9:02 AM Razer <Rayzer at riseup.net
>     <mailto:Rayzer at riseup.net>> wrote:
>     >
>     >     You use the word "I" a lot. I aim for a society where "We"
>     is primary.
>     >
>     >
>     > I aim for the heads of people who aim for such a society,
>     because "we"
>     > is a fiction. It is just a way of saying "I" while pretending
>     you have
>     > others' interests in mind. You can only speak for yourself.
>     Trying to
>     > speak for anyone else who has not asked you to is just another
>     form of
>     > coercion.
>
>     Who said I speak for anyone but me? Or care to.
>
>     You're reading a lot into my interest in social equality. Perhaps it's
>     because of your own world view?
>
>
>

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From Rayzer at riseup.net  Fri Oct 30 10:25:14 2015
From: Rayzer at riseup.net (Razer)
Date: Fri, 30 Oct 2015 10:25:14 -0700
Subject: Shiny stuff and designer societies (addenda)
In-Reply-To: <CAHKdp-=nnkHerGTnBNXQaZp_xnLW4UCOTaRxdi2i1Cc0k472Vg@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAHWD2rJNTxt2+=0rPkkc+323pTn-njkvJVgUE624LShu2xg1Eg@mail.gmail.com>
 <150b0aeef50.276e.4d489027c0c4d0c1b1ca03a1f48f1ffb@misanthropia.org>
 <20151028231728.1A96CC00019@frontend1.nyi.internal>
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 <CAHKdp-=YBD8ZokGvWOc0s359nESwXQMkR_3RnVJD0saWUZOA-A@mail.gmail.com>
 <5632A554.60601@riseup.net>
 <CAHKdp-kzwaD8u9+P2y=zrVvPOu64sZLdL6kw9y9ZhByz_B1sNg@mail.gmail.com>
 <5633A143.3010809@riseup.net>
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Message-ID: <5633A7FA.1040403@riseup.net>



On 10/30/2015 10:01 AM, Sean Lynch wrote:
>
>
> On Fri, Oct 30, 2015 at 9:56 AM Razer <Rayzer at riseup.net
> <mailto:Rayzer at riseup.net>> wrote:
>
>     On 10/30/2015 09:52 AM, Sean Lynch wrote:
>>     Something that one might call "societal equality" is of interest
>>     to me, too. But different people have different ideas of what
>>     that means.
>     And that is the point of commonality we work from. The idea is to
>     work towards more of that commonality without sacrificing our
>     individual ethics or morals. Ideas are the 'mutable' element.
>
>
> This may seem like something of a red herring, but I wish more people
> read Adam Smith's Theory of Moral Sentiments before, instead of, or at
> least in addition to An Inquiry Into the Nature and Causes of the
> Wealth of Nations. And definitely instead of (or at least before)
> anything written by Ayn Rand. I think Rand and cherry-pickers of Smith
> have done a lot of damage to the cause of individualism and
> free-marketism.

Entirely agree. Rand cherry-picked Smith to fit the American
narcissistic dream. Smith didn't idealize that pin factory either. Nor
did Marx in any way support "Marxists". He denounced them on his death
bed, and Lenin, in the process of being poisoned by his Stalin-appointed
nurse said his legacy belonged to Trotsky, NOT Stalin. Lenin wasn't fond
of murderous anti-Semites.

RR
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From Rayzer at riseup.net  Fri Oct 30 10:26:43 2015
From: Rayzer at riseup.net (Razer)
Date: Fri, 30 Oct 2015 10:26:43 -0700
Subject: Shiny stuff and designer societies (addenda)
In-Reply-To: <CAHKdp-kr39fYxC_K15OrXd0EmEnMFW+pYGKg6Y_1+Xedn7gDtA@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAHWD2rJNTxt2+=0rPkkc+323pTn-njkvJVgUE624LShu2xg1Eg@mail.gmail.com>
 <150b0aeef50.276e.4d489027c0c4d0c1b1ca03a1f48f1ffb@misanthropia.org>
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 <CAHWD2rLJ0RgxcGZi=mKD=OfYYtCy1j9sfbzDKOVZuuX5EPCnJg@mail.gmail.com>
 <5632417A.3070402@riseup.net>
 <CAHWD2rL0jH=Kb=UiRArACMh49Wj_m+w8ZXWLtyVu8eU=Ruu+Cw@mail.gmail.com>
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 <CAHWD2rL2hoh9-=htyYbuN1OM0qviQB+zsJzjk4Bj66naP0Rpbw@mail.gmail.com>
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 <CAOsGNSQwQO5n8aDXsdeYqtNEtucej0GaG=2s8aiPcWGtdQUE6Q@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAHKdp-kr39fYxC_K15OrXd0EmEnMFW+pYGKg6Y_1+Xedn7gDtA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <5633A853.2080502@riseup.net>



On 10/30/2015 09:54 AM, Sean Lynch wrote:
> On Thu, Oct 29, 2015 at 5:34 PM Zenaan Harkness <zen at freedbms.net
> <mailto:zen at freedbms.net>> wrote:
>
>     On 10/29/15, Shelley <shelley at misanthropia.org
>     <mailto:shelley at misanthropia.org>> wrote:
>     > On October 29, 2015 11:17:05 AM Lodewijk andré de la porte
>     <l at odewijk.nl <mailto:l at odewijk.nl>>
>     > wrote:
>     >> I'm sorry, but there's only so much one will do with disregard
>     of self.
>     >
>     > That speaks volumes of your character.
>
>     I read Lodewijk's comment as a generalised statement on the current
>     predominant nature of 'Western' (perhaps all) people. As in "how
>     things are" not "how I am and how I want the world to be".
>
>     Character attack is sometimes not be in the interests of
>     constructive dialogue.
>
>     Inspiration for a 'better' world is a good thing. Resignation over the
>     current world is a common thing. Finding a point of compassion in our
>     conversations with each other is something I have failed at too many
>     times.
>
>
> David C. Rose's "Moral Foundation of Economic Behavior" cites some
> pretty convincing evidence that individualist moralities (perhaps what
> people here are callign "Western") are inherently superior to
> collectivist. Of course, I was already biased in that direction when I
> picked up the book, so I'd be interested to hear what someone who is
> already fairly sympathetic to collectivism thinks.

I think there's a place for individualism within collectivism but the
collective comes first.

RR

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From tom at vondein.org  Fri Oct 30 03:20:35 2015
From: tom at vondein.org (Tom)
Date: Fri, 30 Oct 2015 11:20:35 +0100
Subject: Droidjack raids in germany
Message-ID: <20151030102035.GL97416@r4>

German police raided a couple of poeple's homes who've purchased the
android RAT tool DroidJack. They justified the searches with the claim
Droidjack is an offense-only tool which has no dual use (which is
nonsense) and that by purchasing it the user is therefore already a
criminal (nonsense as well).

Beside this claim they didn't provide any further evidence, like if the
person has indeed used the software against someone. The searches are
therefore probably unlawful. However if the scheme persists before the
courts then it may be illegal to buy/own/use "hacker software" in
germany. And since judges usually don't have any clue, the prosecution
can tell them whatever they please and will be able to convict basically
everyone in the security industry at will.

German law blog article:
http://www.kanzlei-hoenig.de/2015/droidjack-der-durchsuchungsbeschluss/

BBC report:
http://www.bbc.com/news/technology-34668337



best,
Tom




From Rayzer at riseup.net  Fri Oct 30 11:24:35 2015
From: Rayzer at riseup.net (Razer)
Date: Fri, 30 Oct 2015 11:24:35 -0700
Subject: Shiny stuff and designer societies (addenda)
In-Reply-To: <CAHKdp-mo3zSOcRqo-NCgKG3cesSph_97h-FKBvOrkjKCvwdwjw@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAHWD2rJNTxt2+=0rPkkc+323pTn-njkvJVgUE624LShu2xg1Eg@mail.gmail.com>
 <150b0aeef50.276e.4d489027c0c4d0c1b1ca03a1f48f1ffb@misanthropia.org>
 <20151028231728.1A96CC00019@frontend1.nyi.internal>
 <CAOsGNSThwv=c9K4v4HkD27PD+wY9+XykyTNOWs=7FOwPpxctZw@mail.gmail.com>
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 <CAHWD2rLJ0RgxcGZi=mKD=OfYYtCy1j9sfbzDKOVZuuX5EPCnJg@mail.gmail.com>
 <5632417A.3070402@riseup.net>
 <CAHWD2rL0jH=Kb=UiRArACMh49Wj_m+w8ZXWLtyVu8eU=Ruu+Cw@mail.gmail.com>
 <20151029173517.02E5CC00016@frontend1.nyi.internal>
 <CAHWD2rL2hoh9-=htyYbuN1OM0qviQB+zsJzjk4Bj66naP0Rpbw@mail.gmail.com>
 <20151029182639.A6B60C00013@frontend1.nyi.internal>
 <CAOsGNSQwQO5n8aDXsdeYqtNEtucej0GaG=2s8aiPcWGtdQUE6Q@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAHKdp-kr39fYxC_K15OrXd0EmEnMFW+pYGKg6Y_1+Xedn7gDtA@mail.gmail.com>
 <5633A853.2080502@riseup.net>
 <CAHKdp-mo3zSOcRqo-NCgKG3cesSph_97h-FKBvOrkjKCvwdwjw@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <5633B5E3.1030802@riseup.net>



On 10/30/2015 11:02 AM, Sean Lynch wrote:
>
>
> On Fri, Oct 30, 2015 at 10:33 AM Razer <Rayzer at riseup.net
> <mailto:Rayzer at riseup.net>> wrote:
>
>
>     I think there's a place for individualism within collectivism but the
>     collective comes first.
>
>
> This I can't really agree with. There is no collective without the
> individual, and why should any individual be part of such a thing if
> it doesn't benefit him or her?

In a word "Survival".
>
> I recognize that we share the planet and that we all benefit from the
> existence of society, but I think the only obligation that places upon
> us is to give at least as much as we take.


Sorry, as an anarchist I have to say it's an anarchist's responsibility
to take responsibility for the well-being of all members of the
collective, which for me includes ALL humankind.


> But at the end of the day the only people qualified to make the
> determination of whether an individual's contribution is adequate is
> the individual and anyone considering entering into some kind of
> exchange/relationship/whatever with that individual.

That is the antithesis of collectivism.

> It is the sum total of these decisions and interactions from which
> society emerges.

Feudal or industrial capitalist society perhaps.

>
> My longer term hope is that sharing the planet is just a temporary
> constraint that we'll eventually overcome. There is a lot of room in
> the galaxy and even the solar system. "If you don't like it, leave"


More like "We fucked it up. Let's go somewhere else and fuck it up now"

(visualizes moon-based fast-food chain trash fired from a rocket hitting
alien on head starting an intergalactic war humans are unprepared for
leading to their annihilation)

You like "Role-Playing" games Sean? I've watched people create
alternative personas just as fucked up as their pre-existing one. That
IS the lesson from role-playing. If you can't get your 'first life'
right, good luck with any other you might conceive.

I've had thoughts about letting all the people who think escape from the
planet is an option do it, and kill each other off elsewhere so the rest
of us who remain can live in peace repairing the damage ...
collectively. Almost every enthusiast of the relocation-to-space idea
I've ever met is a closeted feudalist. Good luck.. Bon voyage!


> is a lot more realistic of an option when the choices and resources
> available are practically infinite.

No known resource is infinite.

> This is not to say I'm sympathetic to the Venus Project and its' ilk;
> I don't think they're wrong about a future of abundance, I just think
> their language and thinking is rooted in a fundamental
> misunderstanding of the meaning of economic scarcity.


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From zen at freedbms.net  Fri Oct 30 04:28:30 2015
From: zen at freedbms.net (Zenaan Harkness)
Date: Fri, 30 Oct 2015 11:28:30 +0000
Subject: Shiny stuff and designer societies (addenda)
In-Reply-To: <20151030013822.DDEEF6801A0@frontend2.nyi.internal>
References: <CAHWD2rJNTxt2+=0rPkkc+323pTn-njkvJVgUE624LShu2xg1Eg@mail.gmail.com>
 <150b0aeef50.276e.4d489027c0c4d0c1b1ca03a1f48f1ffb@misanthropia.org>
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 <CAOsGNSThwv=c9K4v4HkD27PD+wY9+XykyTNOWs=7FOwPpxctZw@mail.gmail.com>
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 <CAHWD2rLJ0RgxcGZi=mKD=OfYYtCy1j9sfbzDKOVZuuX5EPCnJg@mail.gmail.com>
 <5632417A.3070402@riseup.net>
 <CAHWD2rL0jH=Kb=UiRArACMh49Wj_m+w8ZXWLtyVu8eU=Ruu+Cw@mail.gmail.com>
 <20151029173517.02E5CC00016@frontend1.nyi.internal>
 <CAHWD2rL2hoh9-=htyYbuN1OM0qviQB+zsJzjk4Bj66naP0Rpbw@mail.gmail.com>
 <20151029182639.A6B60C00013@frontend1.nyi.internal>
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 <20151030013822.DDEEF6801A0@frontend2.nyi.internal>
Message-ID: <CAOsGNSSev0tCq=bkKV3ZBz4qu1VT_wpoh2TQA6cFvug09ckWpg@mail.gmail.com>

On 10/30/15, Shelley <shelley at misanthropia.org> wrote:
> On October 29, 2015 5:35:15 PM Zenaan Harkness <zen at freedbms.net> wrote:
>> On 10/29/15, Shelley <shelley at misanthropia.org> wrote:
>> > On October 29, 2015 11:17:05 AM Lodewijk andré de la porte
>> > <l at odewijk.nl>
>> > wrote:
>> >> I'm sorry, but there's only so much one will do with disregard of
>> >> self.
>> >
>> > That speaks volumes of your character.
>>
>> I read Lodewijk's comment as a generalised statement on the current
>> predominant nature of 'Western' (perhaps all) people. As in "how
>> things are" not "how I am and how I want the world to be".
>>
>> Character attack is sometimes not be in the interests of constructive
>> dialogue.
>
> I said it spoke volumes of his character; kind of up to the reader to
> decide what that is, eh?
>
> I'm not intentionally attacking his character.  I think it was an
> expression of cumulative exasperation.

Indeed, and I also read a sense of exasperation or at least
resignation in "there's only so much one will do with disregard of
self." Even if that -was- an expression of personal position, it's a
damn sight better than the sociopaths in the seats of "demoncratic"
power.


> It feels as though we are speaking
> from different dimensions; just not connecting.
>
> I was also really busy when I wrote that.  I should be more cognizant; it's
> difficult enough to convey ideas across the ether as it is.

:)

Don't stress about it. Some conversations go smoothly, others less so.
Everyone brings their viewpoint, and most bring a genuinely good
intention, even if their instances of "XX is a given" are different to
yours. Even CIA apologists have a mentally justified world view, and I
found it uniquely interesting to engage with that think or mental
nature, a while back - and yes, I very nearly spat fire and brimstone.
I think the only thing saving me was learning to embrace my inner
bitch.


>> Inspiration for a 'better' world is a good thing. Resignation over the
>> current world is a common thing. Finding a point of compassion in our
>> conversations with each other is something I have failed at too many
>> times.
>
> Another reason why you've rarely seen me comment in the political threads.

How about a vote - let's be gentle with each other's resignation. Then
we can all leap into our attempts to express that which is important
to us, without getting upset when we fail to hit our mark of clarity
or succinctity, or when others fail to hit our expectation of
response.

We are schooled to be right, to get the gold star, the stamp of
approval, the right to be condescending towards those who "fail" to be
"top of the class" or even fail to just be "correct". Are you smelling
a human programming program here? Let's shake off our deep schooling
(programming) and start educating ourselves how to be genuine. How to
simply be. Be what and who we are. Be satisifed, at peace. Then
perhaps we can be satisfied with others just as they are (WHOAH! don't
get too deep now!)


> Misanthropia needs to work on her communication skills, imagine that :)
> -Shelley


:)


Don't


we


all...


Peace,


Zenaan









fuck fuck fuck fuckity fuck fuck fuck




From coderman at gmail.com  Fri Oct 30 11:58:59 2015
From: coderman at gmail.com (coderman)
Date: Fri, 30 Oct 2015 11:58:59 -0700
Subject: The Black List
In-Reply-To: <1397033706.5987460.1446226782006.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com>
References: <CAOsGNSRtcpFPJwbBiSM887a8fw8-gBcvjWH8miK=XFML1w1CUA@mail.gmail.com>
 <1397033706.5987460.1446226782006.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <CAJVRA1Qj+OcV=Zi9y6AnJfpHESqPaJ87AUGvhCgP7wxvq+Swtg@mail.gmail.com>

On 10/30/15, jim bell <jdb10987 at yahoo.com> wrote:
>  ...
> Liz (Megan Boone) is jubilant to learn the
> president has commissioned an
> investigation that could clear her name,

we all seek vindication; relate-able!


> but Red (James Spader) is desperate
> to get on the move.

is move slang for hustl'n?


> It seems mythical vigilante assassin Wendigo
> has Liz in his sights.

mythical vigilante assassins are the worst.
 and it's never clear just how many there are out there!


> Unfortunately, after Red tracks down Wendigo and drops him off a
> roof, the bullets keep coming,

see what i mean!
 are they life prisoners under mind control tryptamines and benzos?
  crab people??


> which is when Liz realizes there's a
> crowd-sourced bounty on her head on the dark web.


> Red asks the FBI to help keep her safe,

does he want her killed, too?


> and Aram (Amir Arison) tracks down the bounty site's webmaster,

it was weaponized cyber munitions tipped with 0day, wasn't it?
those can track down ANYBODY!


> who claims they'll need the creator of the original post,
> Arioch Cain, to delete it once and for all.

i think they mean revoke the bounty. but i forgive this oversight.
PLOT TWIST: Arioch Cain, is a altcoin hedge fund automaton, it can't
be stopped!



> Meanwhile, Red and Liz wait for Dembe (Hisham Tawfiq) in a Manhattan Park

sorry, i can't take it any more. self medicating until i forget this
ever happened!

*sobbing* ...




From Rayzer at riseup.net  Fri Oct 30 12:05:13 2015
From: Rayzer at riseup.net (Razer)
Date: Fri, 30 Oct 2015 12:05:13 -0700
Subject: Amish man sues government to buy firearm without photo ID
In-Reply-To: <CAHKdp-kGceJgAYDEFYmdgTGXBxgu6DExGNNCj0a5C8oSvN1pwg@mail.gmail.com>
References: <1DBAEE53BBD942208581F479125E925B@atii>
 <CAOsGNSTg_ACrneefSAgFsr9r6njywDOhD_X87UERV9agNVqVTA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAHKdp-kGceJgAYDEFYmdgTGXBxgu6DExGNNCj0a5C8oSvN1pwg@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <5633BF69.2010001@riseup.net>



On 10/30/2015 11:05 AM, Sean Lynch wrote:
> I hope they start making their own guns

Amish or not, technologically advanced firearm or not, a zip gun will
land you in jail much faster than an unregistered commercially produced one.

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From zen at freedbms.net  Fri Oct 30 05:30:46 2015
From: zen at freedbms.net (Zenaan Harkness)
Date: Fri, 30 Oct 2015 12:30:46 +0000
Subject: Shiny stuff and designer societies
In-Reply-To: <56327869.361f8c0a.efb1c.692d@mx.google.com>
References: <CAHWD2rJNTxt2+=0rPkkc+323pTn-njkvJVgUE624LShu2xg1Eg@mail.gmail.com>
 <150b0aeef50.276e.4d489027c0c4d0c1b1ca03a1f48f1ffb@misanthropia.org>
 <20151028231728.1A96CC00019@frontend1.nyi.internal>
 <CAOsGNSThwv=c9K4v4HkD27PD+wY9+XykyTNOWs=7FOwPpxctZw@mail.gmail.com>
 <150b1290920.276e.4d489027c0c4d0c1b1ca03a1f48f1ffb@misanthropia.org>
 <20151029013945.C7D9FC00012@frontend1.nyi.internal>
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 <56327869.361f8c0a.efb1c.692d@mx.google.com>
Message-ID: <CAOsGNST3TU-vBw+bT1uh-_t6RfT+_ifdQ0v6_hTf-9Vsd18cng@mail.gmail.com>

On 10/29/15, Juan <juan.g71 at gmail.com> wrote:
> On Thu, 29 Oct 2015 16:19:29 +0100
> Lodewijk andré de la porte <l at odewijk.nl> wrote:

>> But coercion for
>> the better is really not that bad.)
>
> 	Okay. You can keep repeating the same totalitarian
> 	'progressive' nonsense ad nauseam. But I had enough.

I have to agree with Juan, and this is a 'fundamental' for me -
Fabianism, Gradualism, Fascism etc, from Stalin to Pol Pot to Syria's
al-Abad - and plenty of us Westernites, so "schooled" in "the greater
good":

"coercion for the better is really not that bad" is just another way
to say "the ends justifies the means", or it's younger sibling "I was
just doing my job."

And this fundamental evil pervades most of the world today.

As Juan keeps reminding us over and over again.

"if we just coerce people a little, not too much now, for their own
interests, then things will get better"

"if we just kill enough bad people, we'll be left with mostly good
people, and the world will be a better place"

Whether a little, or a lot, coercion ends in the cult of the state
imposing death upon the people (that's us by the way). History shows
us this over and again. The recent blog post summary of the post-1944
escapades in Syria is a classic case in point.

Pol Pot revisited, "Nazi-style experiments" and all:
http://www.wnd.com/1999/06/3715/

---

You can hear it:
" I know how to get to Utopia - just coerce a little, apply a little
force, restrain a few, torture but rarely, kill only when needed.  I
shall wield the force of coercion to get us there, to Utopia [I was
going to say "coercion in all its despotic forms" but all forms of
coercion -are- despotic so that would either be seen correctly as a
tautology, or incorrectly as a subset of the types of coercion].  Give
me the power to wield the force and I shall apply it to the
non-believers who would stop us from getting quickly to Utopia.  So,
quickly must we eradicate the forces opposing Utopia!  Do you believe?
 Only the superior believe.  Only the superior can make it to Utopia,
can be Utopia.  We must eradicate all the inferior.  Produce your
papers please! "

The road to hell IS paved with good intentions. The ends DO NOT
justify the means. Leave others, that is, everyone but yourself, leave
us the fuck alone!

Seems we are inexorably entering ... Juan's world.
Z




From zen at freedbms.net  Fri Oct 30 05:57:11 2015
From: zen at freedbms.net (Zenaan Harkness)
Date: Fri, 30 Oct 2015 12:57:11 +0000
Subject: Shiny stuff and designer societies
In-Reply-To: <CAHWD2rLBHnMHYnLZfYWfvvY9vQnxxrTp5Pk88H5mFoXO6+KW7g@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAHWD2rJNTxt2+=0rPkkc+323pTn-njkvJVgUE624LShu2xg1Eg@mail.gmail.com>
 <150b0aeef50.276e.4d489027c0c4d0c1b1ca03a1f48f1ffb@misanthropia.org>
 <20151028231728.1A96CC00019@frontend1.nyi.internal>
 <CAOsGNSThwv=c9K4v4HkD27PD+wY9+XykyTNOWs=7FOwPpxctZw@mail.gmail.com>
 <150b1290920.276e.4d489027c0c4d0c1b1ca03a1f48f1ffb@misanthropia.org>
 <20151029013945.C7D9FC00012@frontend1.nyi.internal>
 <CAHWD2rLJ0RgxcGZi=mKD=OfYYtCy1j9sfbzDKOVZuuX5EPCnJg@mail.gmail.com>
 <56327869.361f8c0a.efb1c.692d@mx.google.com>
 <CAHWD2rLBHnMHYnLZfYWfvvY9vQnxxrTp5Pk88H5mFoXO6+KW7g@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAOsGNSSmAAeXSyjh2g1+mFNLFRaqE_1MR3Cxm10gROEBTqn+Bg@mail.gmail.com>

On 10/29/15, Lodewijk andré de la porte <l at odewijk.nl> wrote:
> Thanks Juan :)
> 2015-10-29 20:56 GMT+01:00 Juan <juan.g71 at gmail.com>:
>> On Thu, 29 Oct 2015 16:19:29 +0100
>> Lodewijk andré de la porte <l at odewijk.nl> wrote:
>> > Juan:

>> > That is to say, a mixed economy. Again.
>> > > mercantilism/fascim/state socialism/state communism.
>> >
>> > I think some products are best rendered without competition, and some
>> > are best rendered with competition.
>>
>>         I think your baseless, economically ignorant opinions are just
>>         that. Baseless and ignorant.
>>
>>         Plus, you thik you have the 'right' to force people to conform
>>         to your 'utopia'. Do you mind explaining how you acquired that
>> 'right'?
>>         <----fundamental question.
>>
>>         Do you mind answering fundamental questions?
>
> Well, atm I'm still dreaming up the utopia. So far I have no convertees,
> either :)

Indeed.

> I have the right because I can.

Sure.

I have the right to intimately engage your skull with a hammer,
because I can. That would be a predatorial right, sociopathic, mad,
evil etc (not to mention illegal in our Western democratic system),
-and- there's nothing in such an experience, i.e. exercise of said
predatorial right, which I would want; so, you can confidently trust
this would never happen :)

But not everyone thinks like me. You see, some people think like you.


> Powers *are* rights.

Sort of: power suggests capacity, and capacity or ability implies a
natural right. A natural right, is that right which exists by your
natural capacity, or as you said "because I can".

I have natural rights to move, to communicate, to associate, to
breathe, to survive, to predate.

Some people really struggle with the reality of that last one. Yes, it
can be confronting. As a good friend of mine Malcolm says, the lion
has a predatorial right over the gazelle.


> Or, rather, rights do
> not exist until a criminal monopoly invents justice,

Now that's one fucked up statement. You are possibly referring to
"statutory" rights, or simply to domination "you pay me for
protection, and I shall let you continue to sell hot dogs."  The mafia
exercises many variations on the predatorial right to dominate others.

Our demoncratic governments school us to believe that government
exercise of power over us, i.e. dominating us, is in our "best
interest" - it is in your best interest to pay protection tax, to pay
mafia highway robbery road tolls (which go to banks, most often for
roads already paid for), to lose your "license" priviledge to drive/
travel/ survive (go to work) within your society.


> and grants people a
> promise of abstaining from using power; a right.

Time to start typing less, with more thought put into each part of
each sentence, to produce a greater quality result. Perhaps brief up
on axiomatic logic.


> IIRC you have this philosophy of inalienable rights, or natural rights, or
> rights you would always claim, whatever. It doesn't matter. If you haven't
> the power to claim a right, you do not have it. Ask the pigs, cows,
> rabbits, ferrits, birds, and all the other animals we do whatever we want
> to. Ask the mountains thought to have spirits. Listen to them and you will
> hear but weeping for lack of strength.
>
> Ofc, I'm the asshole for saying this.

Your heart is heard. Stay true to that which inspires you. Yes there
is much that is grave and wrong in the world today. Let's do the best
we can to understand our programming and so take a step towards
understanding and the possibility of exercising a worthy authority
arising within our hearts.

Peace,
Zenaan




From zen at freedbms.net  Fri Oct 30 06:09:31 2015
From: zen at freedbms.net (Zenaan Harkness)
Date: Fri, 30 Oct 2015 13:09:31 +0000
Subject: Shiny stuff and designer societies
In-Reply-To: <CAOsGNSSmAAeXSyjh2g1+mFNLFRaqE_1MR3Cxm10gROEBTqn+Bg@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAHWD2rJNTxt2+=0rPkkc+323pTn-njkvJVgUE624LShu2xg1Eg@mail.gmail.com>
 <150b0aeef50.276e.4d489027c0c4d0c1b1ca03a1f48f1ffb@misanthropia.org>
 <20151028231728.1A96CC00019@frontend1.nyi.internal>
 <CAOsGNSThwv=c9K4v4HkD27PD+wY9+XykyTNOWs=7FOwPpxctZw@mail.gmail.com>
 <150b1290920.276e.4d489027c0c4d0c1b1ca03a1f48f1ffb@misanthropia.org>
 <20151029013945.C7D9FC00012@frontend1.nyi.internal>
 <CAHWD2rLJ0RgxcGZi=mKD=OfYYtCy1j9sfbzDKOVZuuX5EPCnJg@mail.gmail.com>
 <56327869.361f8c0a.efb1c.692d@mx.google.com>
 <CAHWD2rLBHnMHYnLZfYWfvvY9vQnxxrTp5Pk88H5mFoXO6+KW7g@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAOsGNSSmAAeXSyjh2g1+mFNLFRaqE_1MR3Cxm10gROEBTqn+Bg@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAOsGNSTBwt5_RRd-=25jR2LpHPOju4wwSuM+1rgXs=Z6HtmATA@mail.gmail.com>

On 10/30/15, Zenaan Harkness <zen at freedbms.net> wrote:

>> I have the right because I can.
>
> Sure.
>
> I have the right to intimately engage your skull with a hammer,
> because I can. That would be a predatorial right, sociopathic, mad,
> evil etc (not to mention illegal in our Western democratic system),
> -and- there's nothing in such an experience, i.e. exercise of said
> predatorial right, which I would want; so, you can confidently trust
> this would never happen :)
>
> But not everyone thinks like me. You see, some people think like you.

OK, that might be seen as an excessively cheap shot at humour, should
have been "some people think like you have been writing"; apologies
Lodewijk if any offense was taken - none is intended.

Regards,
Z




From rich at openwatch.net  Fri Oct 30 13:19:59 2015
From: rich at openwatch.net (Rich Jones)
Date: Fri, 30 Oct 2015 13:19:59 -0700
Subject: Amish man sues government to buy firearm without photo ID
In-Reply-To: <CAHKdp-=HPwp2+hkk1huTkfmEOLfqL_4D4+9uaFoajk33Yqkhzw@mail.gmail.com>
References: <1DBAEE53BBD942208581F479125E925B@atii>
 <CAOsGNSTg_ACrneefSAgFsr9r6njywDOhD_X87UERV9agNVqVTA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAHKdp-kGceJgAYDEFYmdgTGXBxgu6DExGNNCj0a5C8oSvN1pwg@mail.gmail.com>
 <5633BF69.2010001@riseup.net>
 <CAHKdp-=HPwp2+hkk1huTkfmEOLfqL_4D4+9uaFoajk33Yqkhzw@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CADJYzxK_oneABARB+My=Q2TLNiYdiN1oc+pz7FaHG1u3EPhc=g@mail.gmail.com>

Not in the US. Yoshitomo Imura is currently in Japanese prison for a
designing and 3D printing a revolver.

Things in the "defcad" space have advanced quite a lot since the Liberator,
by the way: https://twitter.com/fosscad
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From zen at freedbms.net  Fri Oct 30 06:25:09 2015
From: zen at freedbms.net (Zenaan Harkness)
Date: Fri, 30 Oct 2015 13:25:09 +0000
Subject: Cypherpunks is broken - Welcome to Secret Admirers
In-Reply-To: <20151029191531.GI97416@r4>
References: <48b20a0d7226de7ec81e6a2eefacbec0@ownbay.net>
 <20151029191531.GI97416@r4>
Message-ID: <CAOsGNSREcd1MotLcywrOTH9bzOpZH3MOaG5HjfLwbdGeAckoAQ@mail.gmail.com>

On 10/29/15, Tom <tom at vondein.org> wrote:
> No.
>
> On Thu, Oct 29, 2015 at 03:41:00PM +0000, Trent Secret Admirers wrote:

>> - Members who do not follow the rules will be ejected.

[excitement of possible fun fast ride]
<indefinite vowel; rising intonation; Japanese style>Oo?</>

> What kind of mailing list does this?

[dawning realisation of non-carnivalé experience]
<descending intonation>Ohh!</>

Might be fun to troll...




From shelley at misanthropia.org  Fri Oct 30 13:29:03 2015
From: shelley at misanthropia.org (Shelley)
Date: Fri, 30 Oct 2015 13:29:03 -0700
Subject: The Blacklist (was: The Black List)
In-Reply-To: <CANFTA0-FAWXKz4h-GMHm1ruzbKdfFEwZrdEZq32OQcidyfvQhg@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CANFTA0-FAWXKz4h-GMHm1ruzbKdfFEwZrdEZq32OQcidyfvQhg@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <20151030202847.78B62680185@frontend2.nyi.internal>

On October 30, 2015 1:20:41 PM Michael Best <themikebest at gmail.com> wrote:

> I asked one of the writers about this awhile back after another episode
> seemed to mirror a "case" I was involved in. The off the record answer was
> that instance was a total coincidence but the research assistants for the
> writing team use a lot of real life stuff as inspiration, but rarely delve
> more than skin deep. They borrow headlines, but that's it. It's like Oliver
> Stone's JFK - a mirror of reality, but nothing is quite right.

Could be true; there was an alleged murder plot involving DPR and Silk 
Road, which may have been more of an influence than AP simply by being more 
current.  One can never be sure.

Wendigo is an old legend, but more recently was very prominent on Hannibal. 
 My guess would be the latter was where they borrowed from.  Nothing is new 
under the sun...

>
> TL;DR: Probably a trick, but James Spader's voice will make me forget that.

Ohhh, hell yeah.   :)

-S





From Rayzer at riseup.net  Fri Oct 30 13:58:02 2015
From: Rayzer at riseup.net (Razer)
Date: Fri, 30 Oct 2015 13:58:02 -0700
Subject: Shiny stuff and designer societies (addenda)
In-Reply-To: <CAHKdp-mX7=tiEKva3g5yo=QcVQvLCYecLSLy2Cwh7gWzk-BY3A@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAHWD2rJNTxt2+=0rPkkc+323pTn-njkvJVgUE624LShu2xg1Eg@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAOsGNSThwv=c9K4v4HkD27PD+wY9+XykyTNOWs=7FOwPpxctZw@mail.gmail.com>
 <150b1290920.276e.4d489027c0c4d0c1b1ca03a1f48f1ffb@misanthropia.org>
 <20151029013945.C7D9FC00012@frontend1.nyi.internal>
 <CAHWD2rLJ0RgxcGZi=mKD=OfYYtCy1j9sfbzDKOVZuuX5EPCnJg@mail.gmail.com>
 <5632417A.3070402@riseup.net>
 <CAHWD2rL0jH=Kb=UiRArACMh49Wj_m+w8ZXWLtyVu8eU=Ruu+Cw@mail.gmail.com>
 <20151029173517.02E5CC00016@frontend1.nyi.internal>
 <CAHWD2rL2hoh9-=htyYbuN1OM0qviQB+zsJzjk4Bj66naP0Rpbw@mail.gmail.com>
 <20151029182639.A6B60C00013@frontend1.nyi.internal>
 <CAOsGNSQwQO5n8aDXsdeYqtNEtucej0GaG=2s8aiPcWGtdQUE6Q@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAHKdp-kr39fYxC_K15OrXd0EmEnMFW+pYGKg6Y_1+Xedn7gDtA@mail.gmail.com>
 <5633A853.2080502@riseup.net>
 <CAHKdp-mo3zSOcRqo-NCgKG3cesSph_97h-FKBvOrkjKCvwdwjw@mail.gmail.com>
 <5633B5E3.1030802@riseup.net>
 <CAHKdp-mX7=tiEKva3g5yo=QcVQvLCYecLSLy2Cwh7gWzk-BY3A@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <5633D9DA.4070606@riseup.net>



On 10/30/2015 01:01 PM, Sean Lynch wrote:
> I'm certainly happy to leave the planet to you when I go

You'll leave it uninhabitable.

The rest of your reply is, for the most part, Nihilist, not Anarchist.

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From carimachet at gmail.com  Fri Oct 30 06:24:33 2015
From: carimachet at gmail.com (Cari Machet)
Date: Fri, 30 Oct 2015 15:24:33 +0200
Subject: Shiny stuff and designer societies (addenda)
In-Reply-To: <20151030013822.DDEEF6801A0@frontend2.nyi.internal>
References: <CAHWD2rJNTxt2+=0rPkkc+323pTn-njkvJVgUE624LShu2xg1Eg@mail.gmail.com>
 <150b0aeef50.276e.4d489027c0c4d0c1b1ca03a1f48f1ffb@misanthropia.org>
 <20151028231728.1A96CC00019@frontend1.nyi.internal>
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 <150b1290920.276e.4d489027c0c4d0c1b1ca03a1f48f1ffb@misanthropia.org>
 <20151029013945.C7D9FC00012@frontend1.nyi.internal>
 <CAHWD2rLJ0RgxcGZi=mKD=OfYYtCy1j9sfbzDKOVZuuX5EPCnJg@mail.gmail.com>
 <5632417A.3070402@riseup.net>
 <CAHWD2rL0jH=Kb=UiRArACMh49Wj_m+w8ZXWLtyVu8eU=Ruu+Cw@mail.gmail.com>
 <20151029173517.02E5CC00016@frontend1.nyi.internal>
 <CAHWD2rL2hoh9-=htyYbuN1OM0qviQB+zsJzjk4Bj66naP0Rpbw@mail.gmail.com>
 <20151029182639.A6B60C00013@frontend1.nyi.internal>
 <CAOsGNSQwQO5n8aDXsdeYqtNEtucej0GaG=2s8aiPcWGtdQUE6Q@mail.gmail.com>
 <20151030013822.DDEEF6801A0@frontend2.nyi.internal>
Message-ID: <CAGRDzQVkFRxgsyGzJF_pA3W0DXHjBfoHcahf9otKYRpvcwx-cQ@mail.gmail.com>

The claws of the great and powerfully cruel shelley

We can be problematic and has pitfalls and if you have spent time in the
asia the functi8nality will be clear

I can be problematic as it sucks the life out of shit

Everything that exsists can be used for nafarious ends ... nature of life
beast and in the end about base structures of fascism more than the levels
of empathy

Basically anything can be utilized for the fascist authoritarian regime
On Oct 29, 2015 8:44 PM, "Shelley" <shelley at misanthropia.org> wrote:

> On October 29, 2015 5:35:15 PM Zenaan Harkness <zen at freedbms.net> wrote:
>
> On 10/29/15, Shelley <shelley at misanthropia.org> wrote:
>> > On October 29, 2015 11:17:05 AM Lodewijk andré de la porte <
>> l at odewijk.nl>
>> > wrote:
>> >> I'm sorry, but there's only so much one will do with disregard of self.
>> >
>> > That speaks volumes of your character.
>>
>> I read Lodewijk's comment as a generalised statement on the current
>> predominant nature of 'Western' (perhaps all) people. As in "how
>> things are" not "how I am and how I want the world to be".
>>
>> Character attack is sometimes not be in the interests of constructive
>> dialogue.
>>
>
> I said it spoke volumes of his character; kind of up to the reader to
> decide what that is, eh?
>
> I'm not intentionally attacking his character.  I think it was an
> expression of cumulative exasperation.  It feels as though we are speaking
> from different dimensions; just not connecting.
>
> I was also really busy when I wrote that.  I should be more cognizant;
> it's difficult enough to convey ideas across the ether as it is.
>
>
>> Inspiration for a 'better' world is a good thing. Resignation over the
>> current world is a common thing. Finding a point of compassion in our
>> conversations with each other is something I have failed at too many
>> times.
>>
>>
> Another reason why you've rarely seen me comment in the political
> threads.  Misanthropia needs to work on her communication skills, imagine
> that :)
>
> -Shelley
>
>
>
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From Rayzer at riseup.net  Fri Oct 30 15:41:35 2015
From: Rayzer at riseup.net (Razer)
Date: Fri, 30 Oct 2015 15:41:35 -0700
Subject: @OpenTechFund is an unabashed CIA front
Message-ID: <5633F21F.6090204@riseup.net>

See: https://twitter.com/reggie_airdale/status/642095811803742209

...and while you're at it check out the new look for schoolgirls in
"Moderate Rebel" controlled Idlib Syria:
http://auntieimperial.tumblr.com/post/132230415144

Historic photo: US 'advisors' advising civilians

Now: https://pbs.twimg.com/media/CSlwDrbWcAA1kvK.jpg:large

Then: http://auntieimperial.tumblr.com/post/132232109389

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From carimachet at gmail.com  Fri Oct 30 06:45:30 2015
From: carimachet at gmail.com (Cari Machet)
Date: Fri, 30 Oct 2015 15:45:30 +0200
Subject: Shiny stuff and designer societies (addenda)
In-Reply-To: <CAHWD2rL2hoh9-=htyYbuN1OM0qviQB+zsJzjk4Bj66naP0Rpbw@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAHWD2rJNTxt2+=0rPkkc+323pTn-njkvJVgUE624LShu2xg1Eg@mail.gmail.com>
 <150b0aeef50.276e.4d489027c0c4d0c1b1ca03a1f48f1ffb@misanthropia.org>
 <20151028231728.1A96CC00019@frontend1.nyi.internal>
 <CAOsGNSThwv=c9K4v4HkD27PD+wY9+XykyTNOWs=7FOwPpxctZw@mail.gmail.com>
 <150b1290920.276e.4d489027c0c4d0c1b1ca03a1f48f1ffb@misanthropia.org>
 <20151029013945.C7D9FC00012@frontend1.nyi.internal>
 <CAHWD2rLJ0RgxcGZi=mKD=OfYYtCy1j9sfbzDKOVZuuX5EPCnJg@mail.gmail.com>
 <5632417A.3070402@riseup.net>
 <CAHWD2rL0jH=Kb=UiRArACMh49Wj_m+w8ZXWLtyVu8eU=Ruu+Cw@mail.gmail.com>
 <20151029173517.02E5CC00016@frontend1.nyi.internal>
 <CAHWD2rL2hoh9-=htyYbuN1OM0qviQB+zsJzjk4Bj66naP0Rpbw@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAGRDzQUvOOxPdVQyO26MizqQLvth7dR+nqLuqX8TW7JtXmPLnw@mail.gmail.com>

Andre - maybe there is some work happening that your unaware of - as if we
are made more conscious of these really beautiful shifts i think it can
help create even more thru sort of momentum

Its not as monolithic as you state - multifacitity is really how life works

I have info about towns with their own currencies - lending libraries that
lend much more than books - food deserts being turned into community garden
spaces in urban areas - alternative banking structures being developed -
tesla shit - massive growth in the cooperative sector globally - indigenous
people not allowing destruction of the land - hackers taking information
and dissiminating it to the people to produce higher levels of
consciousness - highly productive scientists developing methodologies of
clean energy without the state apparatus and discounting government as
inneffective - environmetally cleaner tech ...

Shedding the snake skin of the choking state
On Oct 29, 2015 1:22 PM, "Lodewijk andré de la porte" <l at odewijk.nl> wrote:

> 2015-10-29 18:35 GMT+01:00 Shelley <shelley at misanthropia.org>:
>
>> The idea that one has to be "forced" to act in the common interest is
>> disheartening, especially now.
>>
>
> I'm sorry, but there's only so much one will do with disregard of self.
>
> I feel like this discussion has starved. There's a distinct lack of depth
> and logic, and now the meaningless arguments are drying. There has been
> naught in the way of designer societies, let alone the code we can write to
> help get there. Mostly it's the powerless contemplating how fair it would
> be if they weren't.
>
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From Rayzer at riseup.net  Fri Oct 30 15:54:53 2015
From: Rayzer at riseup.net (Razer)
Date: Fri, 30 Oct 2015 15:54:53 -0700
Subject: VICE Magazine Beheads It's Canary
Message-ID: <5633F53D.4070805@riseup.net>

Americas:

VICE News Battles Canadian Police Over Right to Protect Journalist's
Material

By Patrick McGuire

October 30, 2015 | 7:00 am

VICE News is fighting an attempt by the RCMP — Canada's federal police
force — to obtain "any notes and all records of communications" between
VICE News reporter, Ben Makuch, and former Calgary
resident-turned-Islamic State (IS) militant, Farah Mohamed Shirdon.

In February of this year, the RCMP entered VICE Media's offices in both
Toronto and Montreal and served Vice Media and Makuch with a production
order. In Canada, a production order is similar to a search warrant.

Up until this week, VICE News was prohibited from reporting on the
RCMP's production order due to a court-ordered sealing order. VICE is
contesting the production and sealing orders in court, on the principles
of protecting any and all sources, protecting freedom of the press, and
to avoid the situation wherein the Canadian news media becomes a
veritable investigative arm of the law.

Makuch has been a full-time journalist at VICE since 2014 and was a
contributor dating back to 2012. He has exclusively reported on the
Canadian military's collaboration with Academi (formerly known as
Blackwater), the rise of the Canadian arms trade, and has closely
followed the activities of known IS militants online. Prior to VICE, he
worked at The Canadian Press.

Makuch's ongoing reporting around IS militants led him to notice a
suspected Canadian member of the IS who was particularly active online:
Farah Mohamed Shirdon.

Makuch was able to contact Shirdon, under one of his online aliases,
through Twitter and KIK Messenger — an instant messaging platform for
smartphones with over 14 million users. Through Makuch's exchanges with
Shirdon, VICE was one of the first organizations in the world to
communicate directly with IS via social media. This provided an
unprecedented view into the intentions and motivations of IS members.
Makuch wrote two articles for VICE based on his communications with
Shirdon, which led to the production order.

In October of last year, just before the tragic Parliament Hill shooting
in Ottawa, Shirdon told Makuch: "Canadians at home shall face the brunt
of the retaliation. If you are in this crusader alliance against Islam
and Muslims you shall see your streets filled with blood Inshaa Allah."

Makuch's reporting on Shirdon also led VICE CEO and founder Shane Smith
to conduct an exclusive Skype interview with Shirdon himself. That
interview was incendiary enough to cause the RCMP to charge Shirdon with
the "commission of an indictable offence for a terrorist group" after
Shirdon warned of an Islamic State attack in New York City.

In conversation with Smith in September 2014, Shirdon claimed "a lot of
brothers" are in New York City "mobilizing right now."

The RCMP has charged Shirdon with five other terrorism-related offenses
in absentia. He is believed to still be living among IS.

"VICE's treatment by the RCMP is completely reprehensible," said Tom
Henheffer, executive director of Canadian Journalists for Free
Expression. "Journalists are not lackies for the police and to use us
that way is a totally unjustifiable violation of free expression and
privacy rights. Going further and slapping a journalism outlet with a
months-long gag order is even more absurd. This is not an effective way
to fight terrorism, this is not how institutions in a free and
democratic society are supposed to behave, and this sets a dangerous
precedent for the free press in Canada that must not be repeated."

VICE News will be in court on Jan. 11 to argue its case against the
Crown, which is representing the RCMP in this matter.

Patrick McGuire is the Head of Content for VICE Canada and a member of
Canadian Journalists for Free Expression.

Some links on page:
https://news.vice.com/article/vice-news-battles-canadian-police-over-right-to-protect-journalists-material


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From themikebest at gmail.com  Fri Oct 30 13:14:19 2015
From: themikebest at gmail.com (Michael Best)
Date: Fri, 30 Oct 2015 16:14:19 -0400
Subject: The Blacklist (was: The Black List)
Message-ID: <CANFTA0-FAWXKz4h-GMHm1ruzbKdfFEwZrdEZq32OQcidyfvQhg@mail.gmail.com>

I asked one of the writers about this awhile back after another episode
seemed to mirror a "case" I was involved in. The off the record answer was
that instance was a total coincidence but the research assistants for the
writing team use a lot of real life stuff as inspiration, but rarely delve
more than skin deep. They borrow headlines, but that's it. It's like Oliver
Stone's JFK - a mirror of reality, but nothing is quite right.

TL;DR: Probably a trick, but James Spader's voice will make me forget that.
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From juan.g71 at gmail.com  Fri Oct 30 12:18:14 2015
From: juan.g71 at gmail.com (Juan)
Date: Fri, 30 Oct 2015 16:18:14 -0300
Subject: Shiny stuff and designer societies
In-Reply-To: <CAOsGNST3TU-vBw+bT1uh-_t6RfT+_ifdQ0v6_hTf-9Vsd18cng@mail.gmail.com>
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On Fri, 30 Oct 2015 12:30:46 +0000
Zenaan Harkness <zen at freedbms.net> wrote:

> Seems we are inexorably entering ... Juan's world.

	Haha. That's embarrasing. I don't claim any kind of ownership
	to the ideas I rant about =P 

> Z
> 




From seanl at literati.org  Fri Oct 30 09:54:46 2015
From: seanl at literati.org (Sean Lynch)
Date: Fri, 30 Oct 2015 16:54:46 +0000
Subject: Shiny stuff and designer societies (addenda)
In-Reply-To: <CAOsGNSQwQO5n8aDXsdeYqtNEtucej0GaG=2s8aiPcWGtdQUE6Q@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAHWD2rJNTxt2+=0rPkkc+323pTn-njkvJVgUE624LShu2xg1Eg@mail.gmail.com>
 <150b0aeef50.276e.4d489027c0c4d0c1b1ca03a1f48f1ffb@misanthropia.org>
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On Thu, Oct 29, 2015 at 5:34 PM Zenaan Harkness <zen at freedbms.net> wrote:

> On 10/29/15, Shelley <shelley at misanthropia.org> wrote:
> > On October 29, 2015 11:17:05 AM Lodewijk andré de la porte <l at odewijk.nl
> >
> > wrote:
> >> I'm sorry, but there's only so much one will do with disregard of self.
> >
> > That speaks volumes of your character.
>
> I read Lodewijk's comment as a generalised statement on the current
> predominant nature of 'Western' (perhaps all) people. As in "how
> things are" not "how I am and how I want the world to be".
>
> Character attack is sometimes not be in the interests of constructive
> dialogue.
>
> Inspiration for a 'better' world is a good thing. Resignation over the
> current world is a common thing. Finding a point of compassion in our
> conversations with each other is something I have failed at too many
> times.
>

David C. Rose's "Moral Foundation of Economic Behavior" cites some pretty
convincing evidence that individualist moralities (perhaps what people here
are callign "Western") are inherently superior to collectivist. Of course,
I was already biased in that direction when I picked up the book, so I'd be
interested to hear what someone who is already fairly sympathetic to
collectivism thinks.
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From seanl at literati.org  Fri Oct 30 09:56:39 2015
From: seanl at literati.org (Sean Lynch)
Date: Fri, 30 Oct 2015 16:56:39 +0000
Subject: Shiny stuff and designer societies (addenda)
In-Reply-To: <CAHKdp-kzwaD8u9+P2y=zrVvPOu64sZLdL6kw9y9ZhByz_B1sNg@mail.gmail.com>
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Sorry, meant to send this to the list, too.

On Fri, Oct 30, 2015 at 9:52 AM Sean Lynch <seanl at literati.org> wrote:

> On Thu, Oct 29, 2015 at 4:08 PM Razer <Rayzer at riseup.net> wrote:
>
>>
>>
>> On 10/29/2015 03:27 PM, Sean Lynch wrote:
>> > On Thu, Oct 29, 2015 at 9:02 AM Razer <Rayzer at riseup.net> wrote:
>> >
>> >     You use the word "I" a lot. I aim for a society where "We" is
>> primary.
>> >
>> >
>> > I aim for the heads of people who aim for such a society, because "we"
>> > is a fiction. It is just a way of saying "I" while pretending you have
>> > others' interests in mind. You can only speak for yourself. Trying to
>> > speak for anyone else who has not asked you to is just another form of
>> > coercion.
>>
>> Who said I speak for anyone but me? Or care to.
>>
>> You're reading a lot into my interest in social equality. Perhaps it's
>> because of your own world view?
>>
>
> Something that one might call "societal equality" is of interest to me,
> too. But different people have different ideas of what that means.
>
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From seanl at literati.org  Fri Oct 30 10:01:45 2015
From: seanl at literati.org (Sean Lynch)
Date: Fri, 30 Oct 2015 17:01:45 +0000
Subject: Shiny stuff and designer societies (addenda)
In-Reply-To: <5633A143.3010809@riseup.net>
References: <CAHWD2rJNTxt2+=0rPkkc+323pTn-njkvJVgUE624LShu2xg1Eg@mail.gmail.com>
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Message-ID: <CAHKdp-=nnkHerGTnBNXQaZp_xnLW4UCOTaRxdi2i1Cc0k472Vg@mail.gmail.com>

On Fri, Oct 30, 2015 at 9:56 AM Razer <Rayzer at riseup.net> wrote:

> On 10/30/2015 09:52 AM, Sean Lynch wrote:
>
> Something that one might call "societal equality" is of interest to me,
> too. But different people have different ideas of what that means.
>
> And that is the point of commonality we work from. The idea is to work
> towards more of that commonality without sacrificing our individual ethics
> or morals. Ideas are the 'mutable' element.
>

This may seem like something of a red herring, but I wish more people read
Adam Smith's Theory of Moral Sentiments before, instead of, or at least in
addition to An Inquiry Into the Nature and Causes of the Wealth of Nations.
And definitely instead of (or at least before) anything written by Ayn
Rand. I think Rand and cherry-pickers of Smith have done a lot of damage to
the cause of individualism and free-marketism.
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From jdb10987 at yahoo.com  Fri Oct 30 10:39:41 2015
From: jdb10987 at yahoo.com (jim bell)
Date: Fri, 30 Oct 2015 17:39:41 +0000 (UTC)
Subject: The Black List
In-Reply-To: <CAOsGNSRtcpFPJwbBiSM887a8fw8-gBcvjWH8miK=XFML1w1CUA@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAOsGNSRtcpFPJwbBiSM887a8fw8-gBcvjWH8miK=XFML1w1CUA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <1397033706.5987460.1446226782006.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com>

  From: Zenaan Harkness <zen at freedbms.net>
On 10/30/15, jim bell <jdb10987 at yahoo.com> wrote:


..
>> I should probably demand a story royalty.            Jim Bell
>Perhaps they would consider a donation to you or some JBell approved destination.
Here's the show and plot:
http://www.nbc.com/the-blacklist/episode-guide/season-3/arioch-cain/305


Liz (Megan Boone) is jubilant to learn the president has commissioned an investigation that could clear her name, but Red (James Spader) is desperate to get on the move. It seems mythical vigilante assassin Wendigo has Liz in his sights. Unfortunately, after Red tracks down Wendigo and drops him off a roof, the bullets keep coming, which is when Liz realizes there's a crowd-sourced bounty on her head on the dark web. Red asks the FBI to help keep her safe, and Aram (Amir Arison) tracks down the bounty site's webmaster, who claims they'll need the creator of the original post, Arioch Cain, to delete it once and for all. Meanwhile, Red and Liz wait for Dembe (Hisham Tawfiq) in a Manhattan Park. Instead, Mr. Vargas (Paul Reubens) shows up to explain Dembe's dead, then lures the couple to Red's hangar where Solomon (Edi Gathegi) and his men wait in ambush. All seems lost until Dembe struts in, guns blazing. Solomon escapes, and just as Red puts a final bullet in Vargas, Dembe collapses from his own wounds.According to Aram, the only way to get Liz off the bounty hunter site is to kill her, so Red summons Mr. Kaplan to fake her death. Then Liz and Red follow the money to discover the bounty poster, a young girl who lost her mother in the OREA bombing. Liz promises to find the men who killed her mother and the girl deletes the post. Liz is safe... for now.Meanwhile, at Asher's engagement party to fiancée Gwen, Tom (Ryan Eggold) learns his new friend is indebted to the tune of $20,000 weekly to Russian mobster Garik Sarkissian. Sensing an opportunity, Tom inserts himself, and all is well until Gwen spies Sarkissian's corpse in the trunk of Tom's car. Things aren't going well for Ressler (Diego Klattenhoff), either. After testifying at the presidential investigation hearing presided over by Chairwoman Laurel Hitchin (Christine Lahti), Wright (Adriane Lenox) orders him to share all information regarding Liz and Red with the Director (David Strathairn) henceforth.[end of quote]
          Jim Bell


  
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From seanl at literati.org  Fri Oct 30 11:05:18 2015
From: seanl at literati.org (Sean Lynch)
Date: Fri, 30 Oct 2015 18:05:18 +0000
Subject: Amish man sues government to buy firearm without photo ID
In-Reply-To: <CAOsGNSTg_ACrneefSAgFsr9r6njywDOhD_X87UERV9agNVqVTA@mail.gmail.com>
References: <1DBAEE53BBD942208581F479125E925B@atii>
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Message-ID: <CAHKdp-kGceJgAYDEFYmdgTGXBxgu6DExGNNCj0a5C8oSvN1pwg@mail.gmail.com>

On Fri, Oct 30, 2015 at 2:51 AM Zenaan Harkness <zen at freedbms.net> wrote:

> One for supporting. In fact, anyone know -how- he could be supported?
>

I hope they start making their own guns, at which point the government will
be faced with the choice of either allowing it or allowing anyone whose
religion prohibits photographs to purchase firearms without photo ID. Or in
fact to exercise any other right without photo ID.

Or maybe they'll just send in the ATF tanks, burn down their houses, and
pretend the Amish set the fire themselves.
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From loki at obscura.com  Fri Oct 30 18:05:37 2015
From: loki at obscura.com (Lance Cottrell)
Date: Fri, 30 Oct 2015 18:05:37 -0700
Subject: Amish man sues government to buy firearm without photo ID
In-Reply-To: <CAHKdp-=HPwp2+hkk1huTkfmEOLfqL_4D4+9uaFoajk33Yqkhzw@mail.gmail.com>
References: <1DBAEE53BBD942208581F479125E925B@atii>
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Message-ID: <24AC6954-E23D-4B1B-B772-5319ECD42742@obscura.com>

Yes

--
Lance Cottrell
Sent from my iPad

> On Oct 30, 2015, at 1:03 PM, Sean Lynch <seanl at literati.org> wrote:
> 
>> On Fri, Oct 30, 2015 at 12:16 PM Razer <Rayzer at riseup.net> wrote:
>> 
>> 
>> On 10/30/2015 11:05 AM, Sean Lynch wrote:
>> > I hope they start making their own guns
>> 
>> Amish or not, technologically advanced firearm or not, a zip gun will
>> land you in jail much faster than an unregistered commercially produced one.
>> 
> 
> To my knowledge, nobody has yet gone to jail over a Liberator. 
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From seanl at literati.org  Fri Oct 30 11:12:03 2015
From: seanl at literati.org (Sean Lynch)
Date: Fri, 30 Oct 2015 18:12:03 +0000
Subject: Shiny stuff and designer societies (addenda)
In-Reply-To: <CAHKdp-mo3zSOcRqo-NCgKG3cesSph_97h-FKBvOrkjKCvwdwjw@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAHWD2rJNTxt2+=0rPkkc+323pTn-njkvJVgUE624LShu2xg1Eg@mail.gmail.com>
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Message-ID: <CAHKdp-=FaLvJLe8KcPjwVW2vUJ1c=w-m2UmQEV_Ax6+bweEOrg@mail.gmail.com>

Dammit, meant to send to the list again.

On Fri, Oct 30, 2015 at 11:02 AM Sean Lynch <seanl at literati.org> wrote:

> On Fri, Oct 30, 2015 at 10:33 AM Razer <Rayzer at riseup.net> wrote:
>
>>
>> I think there's a place for individualism within collectivism but the
>> collective comes first.
>>
>>
> This I can't really agree with. There is no collective without the
> individual, and why should any individual be part of such a thing if it
> doesn't benefit him or her?
>
> I recognize that we share the planet and that we all benefit from the
> existence of society, but I think the only obligation that places upon us
> is to give at least as much as we take. But at the end of the day the only
> people qualified to make the determination of whether an individual's
> contribution is adequate is the individual and anyone considering entering
> into some kind of exchange/relationship/whatever with that individual. It
> is the sum total of these decisions and interactions from which society
> emerges.
>
> My longer term hope is that sharing the planet is just a temporary
> constraint that we'll eventually overcome. There is a lot of room in the
> galaxy and even the solar system. "If you don't like it, leave" is a lot
> more realistic of an option when the choices and resources available are
> practically infinite. This is not to say I'm sympathetic to the Venus
> Project and its' ilk; I don't think they're wrong about a future of
> abundance, I just think their language and thinking is rooted in a
> fundamental misunderstanding of the meaning of economic scarcity.
>
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From juan.g71 at gmail.com  Fri Oct 30 14:32:03 2015
From: juan.g71 at gmail.com (Juan)
Date: Fri, 30 Oct 2015 18:32:03 -0300
Subject: Shiny stuff and designer societies
In-Reply-To: <CAHWD2rLBHnMHYnLZfYWfvvY9vQnxxrTp5Pk88H5mFoXO6+KW7g@mail.gmail.com>
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Message-ID: <5633e047.b3588c0a.28e5f.1db7@mx.google.com>

On Thu, 29 Oct 2015 22:23:39 +0100
Lodewijk andré de la porte <l at odewijk.nl> wrote:

 
>         So a criminal monopoly is going to define what 'justice' is,
> >         and enforce it, too.
> >
> 
> What's worse, it'll redefine criminal!

	Of course. So, why should any sane person support such a
	system? 

> 
>         You can keep repeating absurd, mainstream propaganda without
> >         any regard to logic, but what's the point? What can you
> >         achieve?
> >
> 
> Complex agreements, abstaining from violence, huge organizations, etc.
> These are valuable, aren't they?

	Abstaining from violence? States are the most violent
	organizations on the planet. As to the complex arrangements
	that can exist in a society, you don't need the state to
	have them. 

	It's also debatable why huge organizations are 'valuable'.


> 
> Ideally, there's a political game that is able to generate
> "appropriate" political choices. It's not a republic, a trade union,
> tribal understandings, etc, etc, per se, but there's always something.
> 
> Without this system we are screwed anyway.


	That's vague. What system are you alluding to, and who is 'we'? 

> If we do have that system
> we *should* use it.

	Statism? That system is designed to benefit special interests.
	Unless you belong to some special faction, it won't do you any
	good.

> 
> And we can use it to determine the absolute widest boundaries of what
> is permitted, boundaries which you may not wander out of. 

	Determine, how? 

> We can
> produce incentive schemes, to encourage the correct behavior. 

	What is the 'correct' behaviour?

> In
> fact, if the system works it needs no restrictions.
> 
> We've yet to find a system that works.

	Define 'works'.


> >         Come on Lodewijk. Why don't you do your homework? Learn the
> > ABC of poltical theory.
> >
> 
> I tried doing homework, but the books were full of propaganda.

	Well yes, there are varying levels of propaganda in political
	philosophy. There are some sound principles too. 

	You think people should be free, and things organized according
	to 'market principles' in some areas, but not in others.
	Problem is, being 'free' to follow arbitrary rules isn't
	exactly freedom. 
	
> 
> Do tell me Juan, how do we prevent a "criminal monopoly"? Isn't it
> better to make a very good "criminal monopoly"?

	Literally? A very good criminal monopoly would excel at being
	criminal. I don't think that's what you want? 

	
> 
> 
> > > But, there is no nations.
> >
> > Ah, so your monopoly of crime is going to tyranize the whole
> > planet. Cute.
> >
> 
> The system spans the globe, the crimes are all the peoples'.


	Whatever. A world state is a pretty bad idea. 


> I have the right because I can. Powers *are* rights. 

	That's not what 'right(s)' means. Or rather that's the kind of
	'rights' that governments rely upon. Arbitrary dictates backed
	by force.



> Or, rather,
> rights do not exist until a criminal monopoly invents justice, and
> grants people a promise of abstaining from using power; a right.
> 
> IIRC you have this philosophy of inalienable rights, or natural
> rights, or rights you would always claim, whatever. It doesn't
> matter. If you haven't the power to claim a right, you do not have
> it. 

	You are misunderstanding what natural rights are. Natural
	rights are a more legalistic description of common sense
	morality. 

	You can probably kill a few random people right now if you
	want. Say, use a car to run people over. But the fact that you
	*can* kill people means killing people is morally right?

	Same thing with natural rights. The fact that natural rights
	can be violated doesn't mean they don't exist.



> Ask the pigs, cows, rabbits, ferrits, birds, and all the other
> animals we do whatever we want to. 

	We are not talking about political philosophy applied
	to non-human animals right now. 

> Ask the mountains thought to have
> spirits. 

	That's a poetic license.

> Listen to them and you will hear but weeping for lack of
> strength.
> 
> Ofc, I'm the asshole for saying this.


	Well, at least you are sincere...

	I would point out (again) that  1) your understanding of
	natural rights isn't...right. 2) that even current states
	pretend to get their powers from 'natural rights'. 

	It's called 'representative government' and it's allegedly
	based on 'consent'. Look it up =P 


> 
> I think in practice it will be easier to make the system a compelling
> opt-in. If you don't want to be in it, it is probably not good
> enough. 

	Oh that's a good point. So now you wearing your anarchist hat?
	=P 



> 
> >         It's a 'necessary evil'? (doubly retarded since you don't
> >         believe in 'evil' eh? )
> >
> 
> I honestly do not know.
> 
> This is a very complex issue spanning all industries. I think the
> patent system is a steaming pile of mercantile shit. The core idea is
> not so crazy though - idea's can be stolen, so they must be property.
> But you don't lose the idea when it gets stolen.
> 
> It ruins the creative industries - we've made our fantasies protected
> property, subject not to the potential for art but the will of
> businessmen. Countless stories go untold. The stories that do get
> told are smudged with corporate inserts and ruinous inserted
> political messages. (look for racism/feminist inserts, they're
> everywhere and they usually fail to actually be unracist or feminist)
	
	Yep.





> 
> > > A similar argument is possible for shrewd advertising, why lie to
> > > people if you do not profit from it? One helps everyone most by
> > > providing correct information. (*this is not true, people
> > > regularly need to be coerced to act in their best interests.
> >
> >         Sure. What if I beat you to a pulp? For your own good of
> >         course. Oh, 'your own good' is whatever I say it is. I am
> > the government.
> >
> 
> I don't see where this goes. Perhaps a powers = rights argument?


	It's a reductio ad absurdum of the  "power = rights" argument.

	"might makes right" is sarcasm, not a literal statement. 




> 
> Microsoft/Apple, Intel/AMD, ATI/Nvidia, most telecoms actually form
> cartels with more than 2.

	All corrupt firms operating in a highly regulate


> 
> The basic principles are:
> * There is a market leader
> * There is competition
> * If the market leader claims the entire market, it will be destroyed
> by government (anti-monopoly law)
> * The market leader will calibrate it's effort to stop short of
> claiming the entire market (likely preferring to reward shareholders,
> divest, etc)
> * If the competition advances, the market leader will advance as much
> (it has more resources to advance, and will typically succeed at
> maintaining it's lead)
> * Any advance the competition makes is now wasted, as the market
> leader will match the advancement
> * The competition has no reason to advance, except upon itself (other
> competition)
> 
> I'm not so wise on the world, I am no expert on the actual state of
> markets and corporations. I'm sure someone reading is.
> 
> > > Lodewijk is just a run of the mill fascist who thinks he has
> > > > the 'god given' right to 'design' 'society' according to his
> > > > fuckingly retarded tastes.
> > > >
> > > > Also, he likes to pretend that the bad outcomes of his fascist
> > > > system are caused by innocent lambs who actually want to do the
> > > > 'right' thing. Sick.
> > > >
> > >
> > > I'm too minarchist to be a facist, but otherwise you're spot on.
> > > Try not to confuse my designs with the current world.I am not a
> > > supporter of the status quo,
> >
> > ...says a supporter of the status quo who is parroting
> > mainstream propaganda in a more or less radical mailing list.
> >
> 
> I rarely get accused of being mainstream. I almost feel normal now.
> 
> Please don't mistake pointing out advantages for being a supporter.
> 
> 
> > > but I will attempt to understand it, and
> > > I will say there's hardly an evil actor out there.
> >
> >         Well, I can say the moon is made of cheese.
> >
> 
> What if it is?
> 
> 
> > > We just collectively fuck up according to our fuckingly retarded
> > > tastes.
> >
> 
> 
> >         Sure. Soldiers and wall street bankers are just as innocent
> > as 4 year old children.
> 
> 
> Some 4 year old children are soldiers. Bankers are ageist and
> pretentious, so they prefer white 25 to 60 year olds (in-corporate
> ranks are age-pinned).





From juan.g71 at gmail.com  Fri Oct 30 14:34:47 2015
From: juan.g71 at gmail.com (Juan)
Date: Fri, 30 Oct 2015 18:34:47 -0300
Subject: Shiny stuff and designer societies
In-Reply-To: <CAHWD2rLBHnMHYnLZfYWfvvY9vQnxxrTp5Pk88H5mFoXO6+KW7g@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAHWD2rJNTxt2+=0rPkkc+323pTn-njkvJVgUE624LShu2xg1Eg@mail.gmail.com>
 <150b0aeef50.276e.4d489027c0c4d0c1b1ca03a1f48f1ffb@misanthropia.org>
 <20151028231728.1A96CC00019@frontend1.nyi.internal>
 <CAOsGNSThwv=c9K4v4HkD27PD+wY9+XykyTNOWs=7FOwPpxctZw@mail.gmail.com>
 <150b1290920.276e.4d489027c0c4d0c1b1ca03a1f48f1ffb@misanthropia.org>
 <20151029013945.C7D9FC00012@frontend1.nyi.internal>
 <CAHWD2rLJ0RgxcGZi=mKD=OfYYtCy1j9sfbzDKOVZuuX5EPCnJg@mail.gmail.com>
 <56327869.361f8c0a.efb1c.692d@mx.google.com>
 <CAHWD2rLBHnMHYnLZfYWfvvY9vQnxxrTp5Pk88H5mFoXO6+KW7g@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <5633e0eb.071e8c0a.f8546.1d8c@mx.google.com>


sorry, hit send too soon.

> 
> Microsoft/Apple, Intel/AMD, ATI/Nvidia, most telecoms actually form
> cartels with more than 2.

	All corrupt firms operating in a highly regulated 'market' - I'm
	not going to bother analyzing them. I'd point out that garbage
	like apple-microsoft wouldn 't exist without IP. And american
	firms would be way less succesful without B-52s.





From admin at pilobilus.net  Fri Oct 30 15:52:08 2015
From: admin at pilobilus.net (Steve Kinney)
Date: Fri, 30 Oct 2015 18:52:08 -0400
Subject: Shiny stuff and designer societies (addenda)
In-Reply-To: <CAHKdp-kr39fYxC_K15OrXd0EmEnMFW+pYGKg6Y_1+Xedn7gDtA@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAHWD2rJNTxt2+=0rPkkc+323pTn-njkvJVgUE624LShu2xg1Eg@mail.gmail.com>
 <150b0aeef50.276e.4d489027c0c4d0c1b1ca03a1f48f1ffb@misanthropia.org>
 <20151028231728.1A96CC00019@frontend1.nyi.internal>
 <CAOsGNSThwv=c9K4v4HkD27PD+wY9+XykyTNOWs=7FOwPpxctZw@mail.gmail.com>
 <150b1290920.276e.4d489027c0c4d0c1b1ca03a1f48f1ffb@misanthropia.org>
 <20151029013945.C7D9FC00012@frontend1.nyi.internal>
 <CAHWD2rLJ0RgxcGZi=mKD=OfYYtCy1j9sfbzDKOVZuuX5EPCnJg@mail.gmail.com>
 <5632417A.3070402@riseup.net>
 <CAHWD2rL0jH=Kb=UiRArACMh49Wj_m+w8ZXWLtyVu8eU=Ruu+Cw@mail.gmail.com>
 <20151029173517.02E5CC00016@frontend1.nyi.internal>
 <CAHWD2rL2hoh9-=htyYbuN1OM0qviQB+zsJzjk4Bj66naP0Rpbw@mail.gmail.com>
 <20151029182639.A6B60C00013@frontend1.nyi.internal>
 <CAOsGNSQwQO5n8aDXsdeYqtNEtucej0GaG=2s8aiPcWGtdQUE6Q@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAHKdp-kr39fYxC_K15OrXd0EmEnMFW+pYGKg6Y_1+Xedn7gDtA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <5633F498.6020707@pilobilus.net>

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On 10/30/2015 12:54 PM, Sean Lynch wrote:

> David C. Rose's "Moral Foundation of Economic Behavior" cites
> some pretty convincing evidence that individualist moralities
> (perhaps what people here are callign "Western") are inherently
> superior to collectivist. Of course, I was already biased in
> that direction when I picked up the book, so I'd be interested
> to hear what someone who is already fairly sympathetic to
> collectivism thinks.

The word "collectivism" carries a lot of baggage, as it has been
flown as a banner over many authoritarian, violent dictatorships
"of the proletariat."  But the base concept of concern for the
well being of one's community as integral to one's own well being
has also been called compassion, honor and common sense.

Darwinian evolution does not favor the me-first individualist,
however strong, dominant, awesome, etc. that individual may be.
Humans have a genetic predisposition to form families, villages
and tribes, to identify with them and hold the interests of the
group at co-equal to self interest.  Purely self centered motives
are socially pathological, and Darwinian evolution selects against
this trait:  Because the awesome dominance of the "fittest" has
negative long term survival value, compared to those who work at
maintaining a strong, resilient community that provides a
favorable environment for the whole community's progeny out to the
Nth generation.  When the smartest guys in the room tell us
otherwise, they are not mistaken:  They are lying.  The more power
is afforded to purely self-interested socioeconomic "winners," the
more their actions damage the long term viability of the community.

Big problems arise when unnaturally large "communities," i.e.
States exist, because they can not exist without the services of
an elite group of political and economic power brokers who provide
millions (!) of subjects with a convincing illusion of "community"
with people they will never meet in real life.  Deception alone
won't do the job, so armed guards must also be employed to enforce
the orders of these facilitators.  Viola:  Rent-seeking absentee
landlords, serving their own interests at the expense of the
ersatz "communities" they rule.  It's all downhill from there.

"Democracy" so-called, an attempt at community self regulation
among strangers who will never meet, does not scale well.  My
favorite historical example is the response of Iceland and the
United States to the "financial crisis" of 2008.  Iceland,
population 1/3 million, responded as a human community, "regulated
the regulators" and has since jailed corrupt bankers who failed to
flee the country in time.  The United States, population 360+
million, responded as directed by the perpetrators of a massive
fraud, and rewarded them handsomely for their efforts.

Any -ism that is proposed to replace the policies of an existing
large State without eliminating that State, promising Utopian
outcomes, is at best a shockingly ignorant error in judgement.
But it is more likely a deliberate swindle backed by socially
pathological "individuals" and interest groups.  If the -ism
involves a large State with a putative monopoly on violence (as
violation: robbery, kidnapping, murder), it's just one more brand
label and PR campaign for Fascism.

Any -ism that proposes breaking up large States into small,
independent communities governed without delegating decision
making authority to "representatives" is difficult to implement
anywhere the modern State has taken root.  Intellectual types
rarely approve of any such scheme, because it would mean trusting
people to "do the right thing" of their own accord, without
morally and mentally superior guidance from On High.  But I am
confident that people who implement such schemes where and as
possible stand the best chance of producing societies worth living
in.  We are heading into a global industrial and human population
crash that will produce numerous local opportunities to do just that
.

And that's why I look forward to the End Of The World with
considerable optimism.  By definition the real "collectivists"
will be the long term winners, and I don't think that will be a
Bad Thing.

:o)


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From intelemetry at openmailbox.org  Fri Oct 30 19:00:02 2015
From: intelemetry at openmailbox.org (intelemetry)
Date: Fri, 30 Oct 2015 19:00:02 -0700
Subject: Amish man sues government to buy firearm without photo ID
In-Reply-To: <24AC6954-E23D-4B1B-B772-5319ECD42742@obscura.com>
References: <1DBAEE53BBD942208581F479125E925B@atii>
 <CAOsGNSTg_ACrneefSAgFsr9r6njywDOhD_X87UERV9agNVqVTA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAHKdp-kGceJgAYDEFYmdgTGXBxgu6DExGNNCj0a5C8oSvN1pwg@mail.gmail.com>
 <5633BF69.2010001@riseup.net>
 <CAHKdp-=HPwp2+hkk1huTkfmEOLfqL_4D4+9uaFoajk33Yqkhzw@mail.gmail.com>
 <24AC6954-E23D-4B1B-B772-5319ECD42742@obscura.com>
Message-ID: <563420A2.4040807@openmailbox.org>

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http://www.80percentarms.com/products/80-lower-receiver-type-iii-hard-an
odized-billet-ar-15

http://www.80percentarms.com/products/80-ar-15-easy-jig

http://www.80-lower.com/ar-15-kits/

Drill and assemble. No serial. All legal.

- -- or if you're amish --

http://mindtomachine.blogspot.com/2014/08/12-gauge-pipe-shotgun.html

I'm sure they can build the recoil pad out of hay or something.

- - Intelemetry

On 10/30/15 6:05 PM, Lance Cottrell wrote:
> Yes
> 
> -- Lance Cottrell Sent from my iPad
> 
> On Oct 30, 2015, at 1:03 PM, Sean Lynch <seanl at literati.org 
> <mailto:seanl at literati.org>> wrote:
> 
>> On Fri, Oct 30, 2015 at 12:16 PM Razer <Rayzer at riseup.net 
>> <mailto:Rayzer at riseup.net>> wrote:
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> On 10/30/2015 11:05 AM, Sean Lynch wrote:
>>> I hope they start making their own guns
>> 
>> Amish or not, technologically advanced firearm or not, a zip gun
>> will land you in jail much faster than an unregistered
>> commercially produced one.
>> 
>> 
>> To my knowledge, nobody has yet gone to jail over a Liberator.
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From admin at pilobilus.net  Fri Oct 30 16:48:55 2015
From: admin at pilobilus.net (Steve Kinney)
Date: Fri, 30 Oct 2015 19:48:55 -0400
Subject: Shiny stuff and designer societies (addenda)
In-Reply-To: <56339ACF.6000200@riseup.net>
References: <CAHWD2rJNTxt2+=0rPkkc+323pTn-njkvJVgUE624LShu2xg1Eg@mail.gmail.com>
 <150b0aeef50.276e.4d489027c0c4d0c1b1ca03a1f48f1ffb@misanthropia.org>
 <20151028231728.1A96CC00019@frontend1.nyi.internal>
 <CAOsGNSThwv=c9K4v4HkD27PD+wY9+XykyTNOWs=7FOwPpxctZw@mail.gmail.com>
 <150b1290920.276e.4d489027c0c4d0c1b1ca03a1f48f1ffb@misanthropia.org>
 <20151029013945.C7D9FC00012@frontend1.nyi.internal>
 <CAHWD2rLJ0RgxcGZi=mKD=OfYYtCy1j9sfbzDKOVZuuX5EPCnJg@mail.gmail.com>
 <5632417A.3070402@riseup.net>
 <CAHWD2rL0jH=Kb=UiRArACMh49Wj_m+w8ZXWLtyVu8eU=Ruu+Cw@mail.gmail.com>
 <20151029173517.02E5CC00016@frontend1.nyi.internal>
 <CAHWD2rL2hoh9-=htyYbuN1OM0qviQB+zsJzjk4Bj66naP0Rpbw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAOsGNSSv2AudRp+zgpiSiFPzWkn18o8bDRK_8H23Gb0DYqJtsQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <56339ACF.6000200@riseup.net>
Message-ID: <563401E7.7020708@pilobilus.net>

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On 10/30/2015 12:29 PM, Razer wrote:

> Really! Rainbow Family of the Living Light.
> 
> The "Founders" are EVERY SINGLE PERSON who attends.
> 
> Save us from charismatic cults called 'utopian' as example of
> anything except Fascism.
> 
> Welcome home! 
> https://duckduckgo.com/?t=lm&q=Rainbow+Family+of+the+Living+Light

+10k

Said
> 
the infamous one-line poster.

We looooove yoooou!

:o)



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From seanl at literati.org  Fri Oct 30 13:01:18 2015
From: seanl at literati.org (Sean Lynch)
Date: Fri, 30 Oct 2015 20:01:18 +0000
Subject: Shiny stuff and designer societies (addenda)
In-Reply-To: <5633B5E3.1030802@riseup.net>
References: <CAHWD2rJNTxt2+=0rPkkc+323pTn-njkvJVgUE624LShu2xg1Eg@mail.gmail.com>
 <150b0aeef50.276e.4d489027c0c4d0c1b1ca03a1f48f1ffb@misanthropia.org>
 <20151028231728.1A96CC00019@frontend1.nyi.internal>
 <CAOsGNSThwv=c9K4v4HkD27PD+wY9+XykyTNOWs=7FOwPpxctZw@mail.gmail.com>
 <150b1290920.276e.4d489027c0c4d0c1b1ca03a1f48f1ffb@misanthropia.org>
 <20151029013945.C7D9FC00012@frontend1.nyi.internal>
 <CAHWD2rLJ0RgxcGZi=mKD=OfYYtCy1j9sfbzDKOVZuuX5EPCnJg@mail.gmail.com>
 <5632417A.3070402@riseup.net>
 <CAHWD2rL0jH=Kb=UiRArACMh49Wj_m+w8ZXWLtyVu8eU=Ruu+Cw@mail.gmail.com>
 <20151029173517.02E5CC00016@frontend1.nyi.internal>
 <CAHWD2rL2hoh9-=htyYbuN1OM0qviQB+zsJzjk4Bj66naP0Rpbw@mail.gmail.com>
 <20151029182639.A6B60C00013@frontend1.nyi.internal>
 <CAOsGNSQwQO5n8aDXsdeYqtNEtucej0GaG=2s8aiPcWGtdQUE6Q@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAHKdp-kr39fYxC_K15OrXd0EmEnMFW+pYGKg6Y_1+Xedn7gDtA@mail.gmail.com>
 <5633A853.2080502@riseup.net>
 <CAHKdp-mo3zSOcRqo-NCgKG3cesSph_97h-FKBvOrkjKCvwdwjw@mail.gmail.com>
 <5633B5E3.1030802@riseup.net>
Message-ID: <CAHKdp-mX7=tiEKva3g5yo=QcVQvLCYecLSLy2Cwh7gWzk-BY3A@mail.gmail.com>

On Fri, Oct 30, 2015 at 11:24 AM Razer <Rayzer at riseup.net> wrote:

> On 10/30/2015 11:02 AM, Sean Lynch wrote:
>
> On Fri, Oct 30, 2015 at 10:33 AM Razer < <Rayzer at riseup.net>
> Rayzer at riseup.net> wrote:
>
>>
>> I think there's a place for individualism within collectivism but the
>> collective comes first.
>>
>>
> This I can't really agree with. There is no collective without the
> individual, and why should any individual be part of such a thing if it
> doesn't benefit him or her?
>
> In a word "Survival".
>

I don't agree.  The only reason human beings require society to survive is
that all the other human beings are also using up resources, so if we did
not coordinate our use of resources (via the market) we would exhaust them
and perish.

> I recognize that we share the planet and that we all benefit from the
> existence of society, but I think the only obligation that places upon us
> is to give at least as much as we take.
>
> Sorry, as an anarchist I have to say it's an anarchist's responsibility to
> take responsibility for the well-being of all members of the collective,
> which for me includes ALL humankind.
>

As an anarchist I disagree with this characterization.

> But at the end of the day the only people qualified to make the
> determination of whether an individual's contribution is adequate is the
> individual and anyone considering entering into some kind of
> exchange/relationship/whatever with that individual.
>
> That is the antithesis of collectivism.
>

I agree.


> It is the sum total of these decisions and interactions from which society
> emerges.
>
> Feudal or industrial capitalist society perhaps.
>

No. Society is an emergent phenomenon whether or not you want it to be. It
does not pre-exist individual interactions with one another. A thousand
people who never meet and whose actions never affect the others do not form
a society. It is not until they get together and interact that you have a
society.


> My longer term hope is that sharing the planet is just a temporary
> constraint that we'll eventually overcome. There is a lot of room in the
> galaxy and even the solar system. "If you don't like it, leave"
>
> More like "We fucked it up. Let's go somewhere else and fuck it up now"
>

This is an anti-human, anti-life sentiment. If you'd prefer we leave the
universe as dead rock, please feel free to kill yourself and leave it to
those of us who believe in life.


> (visualizes moon-based fast-food chain trash fired from a rocket hitting
> alien on head starting an intergalactic war humans are unprepared for
> leading to their annihilation)
>

Even if there are aliens, the galaxy is almost certainly unimaginably
sparsely populated. Even on Earth, I can think of no tale of a human being
ever having been hit by a meteor, much less a piece of falling space debris.


> You like "Role-Playing" games Sean? I've watched people create alternative
> personas just as fucked up as their pre-existing one. That IS the lesson
> from role-playing. If you can't get your 'first life' right, good luck with
> any other you might conceive.
>
> I've had thoughts about letting all the people who think escape from the
> planet is an option do it, and kill each other off elsewhere so the rest of
> us who remain can live in peace repairing the damage ... collectively.
> Almost every enthusiast of the relocation-to-space idea I've ever met is a
> closeted feudalist. Good luck.. Bon voyage!
>

I'm certainly happy to leave the planet to you when I go. I'm guessing your
descendants will still be here when the sun renders it uninhabitable. Or
maybe they will have wiped out the planet in a war over ideology, because
they believe in a fictitious "collective."

> is a lot more realistic of an option when the choices and resources
> available are practically infinite.
>
> No known resource is infinite.
>

Go look up the definition of the word "practically." I'll wait.
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From seanl at literati.org  Fri Oct 30 13:03:56 2015
From: seanl at literati.org (Sean Lynch)
Date: Fri, 30 Oct 2015 20:03:56 +0000
Subject: Amish man sues government to buy firearm without photo ID
In-Reply-To: <5633BF69.2010001@riseup.net>
References: <1DBAEE53BBD942208581F479125E925B@atii>
 <CAOsGNSTg_ACrneefSAgFsr9r6njywDOhD_X87UERV9agNVqVTA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAHKdp-kGceJgAYDEFYmdgTGXBxgu6DExGNNCj0a5C8oSvN1pwg@mail.gmail.com>
 <5633BF69.2010001@riseup.net>
Message-ID: <CAHKdp-=HPwp2+hkk1huTkfmEOLfqL_4D4+9uaFoajk33Yqkhzw@mail.gmail.com>

On Fri, Oct 30, 2015 at 12:16 PM Razer <Rayzer at riseup.net> wrote:

>
>
> On 10/30/2015 11:05 AM, Sean Lynch wrote:
> > I hope they start making their own guns
>
> Amish or not, technologically advanced firearm or not, a zip gun will
> land you in jail much faster than an unregistered commercially produced
> one.
>
>
To my knowledge, nobody has yet gone to jail over a Liberator.
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From mirimir at riseup.net  Fri Oct 30 20:28:28 2015
From: mirimir at riseup.net (Mirimir)
Date: Fri, 30 Oct 2015 21:28:28 -0600
Subject: "Jewish Spine Discriminates Against Muslim Knife."
In-Reply-To: <CAOsGNSR6YkM4X9NsGB2tdbP0OVrKCURQDMmGHMnvbfWDkYECjw@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAOsGNSR6YkM4X9NsGB2tdbP0OVrKCURQDMmGHMnvbfWDkYECjw@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <5634355C.3080600@riseup.net>

On 10/30/2015 08:44 PM, Zenaan Harkness wrote:
> http://www.frontpagemag.com/point/260627/heroic-muslim-terrorist-attacked-first-women-he-daniel-greenfield
> 
> I wonder - is it a good thing that Daniel presents such stories in a
> way which has me chuckling a couple rounds after reading of such an
> event?
> 
> It's black humour, but real life.

Israel and Palestine are in a cage fight to the death. It's impossible
to say anymore who started it. The fight goes back thousands of years.
After the Romans kicked their ass, the Israelites were down for the
count for centuries. But they came back, weathered the Holocaust, and
totally kicked Palestinian ass.

But before long, they'll need to choose. They can give up the Jewish
state, and include the Palestinians as equal partners. Or they can
finish the job, and drive the rest of the Palestinians out, or kill
them. Fear and loathing, for sure.




From carimachet at gmail.com  Fri Oct 30 13:22:23 2015
From: carimachet at gmail.com (Cari Machet)
Date: Fri, 30 Oct 2015 22:22:23 +0200
Subject: list sans smtp spillage
In-Reply-To: <5630b15d.03a7440a.a3631.fffffb56@mx.google.com>
References: <CAJVRA1Qsx_vpf8ppOActj0OHhaMnK-bHOJc2ycnxUc365F0iag@mail.gmail.com>
 <op.x6yt821ebgbjo9@laptop>
 <CAKtE3zd0HXwNYf0O8ABoz31=jekM=QcghC0YaOBVO6VDkHsrFA@mail.gmail.com>
 <20151023162045.1F3C3C00014@frontend1.nyi.internal>
 <562AF01A.70003@riseup.net>
 <CAGRDzQVgkpg=Qo2z-zP+ojiJJes006PK3VTCX2YZDNksDp6C-A@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAKtE3zdVzgAvrdQAWqae_i-4UR-RV3xkEiEHOMz_-kixngrEkA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAGRDzQXhygHgTEymXUhHHS6OpWYg3M0=i6Q0Gpaa1rJzv2L3eA@mail.gmail.com>
 <562BDC2A.8030001@riseup.net> <562CEA30.5000200@pilobilus.net>
 <562CF602.8000605@riseup.net> <562CFC35.70605@pilobilus.net>
 <562D01A3.2080802@riseup.net> <562D1394.2010700@pilobilus.net>
 <CAOsGNSSPd-QiC1EEB0Hc+NHxL1TSjTz6esbcMKknuR4e9OfF-Q@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAGRDzQUZnX7wMdEEczSC8c=MFFGP8cjyQWe-m2WqhOzHZx53Kw@mail.gmail.com>
 <562f66f3.878b420a.29c82.0614@mx.google.com>
 <CAGRDzQVXjKaiLkwytjmxWVFMwj135JZOWak6a9HCfbYb5LK2=Q@mail.gmail.com>
 <5630b15d.03a7440a.a3631.fffffb56@mx.google.com>
Message-ID: <CAGRDzQWQay+g7HwSEL_V7JuZ8W2Gn32yxWEQ9xETZf0a8msFyQ@mail.gmail.com>

Yes asian men mindsets are different so i have had negative feedback from
saying fuck many times

Happy western pleasures to fucking you
On Oct 28, 2015 6:40 AM, "Ulex Europae" <europus at gmail.com> wrote:

> At 08:44 AM 10/27/2015, Cari Machet wrote:
>
> I dont know-know but test it all out irl ask someone in love with you if
>> you can fuck them ...watch the facial expression
>>
>
> That seems pointless, BTDT a few times and had the same said to me
> more times than that. What followed after was, a pleasure.
>
> On Oct 27, 2015 12:06 PM, "Ulex Europae" <<mailto:europus at gmail.com>
>> europus at gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>> Word meanings change over time. To not acknowledge and take this
>> into consideration reveals an agenda.
>>
>
> A religious agenda, most probably. Mainstream religions these days
> have odd ideas about women and the sex act. They should advance their
> theologies because it's the 21st century now, not the Dark Ages (which
> xtianity single-handedly caused (for western civilization), btw).
>
> --
> "Studies have found that people who use profanity are more intelligent
> than the rest of you motherfuckers." -- some Facebook meme
>
>
>
>
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From zen at freedbms.net  Fri Oct 30 17:12:43 2015
From: zen at freedbms.net (Zenaan Harkness)
Date: Sat, 31 Oct 2015 00:12:43 +0000
Subject: US billionaire John Pepper, retired CEO of Proctor & Gamble, re Russia
Message-ID: <CAOsGNSQUd_D-TJtKY-+Qn=+tU7iChEHOAEAvn-sEfK6d-fua+A@mail.gmail.com>

We can assume John Pepper does not have his hand (at least
significantly) in the military neocon money trough.

http://russia-insider.com/en/politics/retired-top-us-ceo-make-peace-russia-john-pepper-procter-gamble/ri10832
"
Retired Top US CEO: Make Peace with Russia (John Pepper - Procter & Gamble)
    ” …we need to avoid a further breakdown in the relationships
between Russia and the U.S.  This means that we must work together to
resolve what are the open wounds now in Ukraine and Syria”
    “We must avoid seeming to or actually working to impose our values
on Russia.”
    “We must acknowledge Russia as a major global power, with a
history and status that deserves and demands respect.”
    “We must dial down the rhetoric which vilifies the other party
when what they are doing is essentially expressing their own national
interest and pride as we do.”
"




From zen at freedbms.net  Fri Oct 30 18:15:48 2015
From: zen at freedbms.net (Zenaan Harkness)
Date: Sat, 31 Oct 2015 01:15:48 +0000
Subject: Syria - USAF finally figures out where the goddamn oil refineries are
Message-ID: <CAOsGNSRNfp71Vh0D9C_NOSvBWkbR+hbaegB7V+-aD4yNGeUcPw@mail.gmail.com>

Those refineries must have blended in with all those deceptive desert
pebbles and the odd desert goat masquerading as an oil refinery.

:)

http://russia-insider.com/en/putin-makes-obama-offer-he-cant-refuse/ri10834




From rysiek at hackerspace.pl  Fri Oct 30 18:40:40 2015
From: rysiek at hackerspace.pl (rysiek)
Date: Sat, 31 Oct 2015 02:40:40 +0100
Subject: Shiny stuff and designer societies
In-Reply-To: <CAHWD2rJNTxt2+=0rPkkc+323pTn-njkvJVgUE624LShu2xg1Eg@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAHWD2rJNTxt2+=0rPkkc+323pTn-njkvJVgUE624LShu2xg1Eg@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <1566593.QzIpNvoidC@lapuntu>

Dnia środa, 28 października 2015 16:08:44 Lodewijk andré de la porte pisze:
> New threat, this is offtopic.

How delightfully ironic that Syria is on-topic here:
http://rys.io/en/39

-- 
Pozdrawiam,
Michał "rysiek" Woźniak

Zmieniam klucz GPG :: http://rys.io/pl/147
GPG Key Transition :: http://rys.io/en/147
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From zen at freedbms.net  Fri Oct 30 19:44:57 2015
From: zen at freedbms.net (Zenaan Harkness)
Date: Sat, 31 Oct 2015 02:44:57 +0000
Subject: "Jewish Spine Discriminates Against Muslim Knife."
Message-ID: <CAOsGNSR6YkM4X9NsGB2tdbP0OVrKCURQDMmGHMnvbfWDkYECjw@mail.gmail.com>

http://www.frontpagemag.com/point/260627/heroic-muslim-terrorist-attacked-first-women-he-daniel-greenfield

I wonder - is it a good thing that Daniel presents such stories in a
way which has me chuckling a couple rounds after reading of such an
event?

It's black humour, but real life.




From zen at freedbms.net  Fri Oct 30 19:58:47 2015
From: zen at freedbms.net (Zenaan Harkness)
Date: Sat, 31 Oct 2015 02:58:47 +0000
Subject: On a more serious note - how it's going on the ground in Syria
Message-ID: <CAOsGNSSTNkHP_dJaSCF=Re0mWK5-7ELhbFq5Lyus1wZH7zQYbw@mail.gmail.com>

Ahem. I assure you, the Russian bombing is no satire...

12MB and 6MB respectively.

http://fortruss.blogspot.ru/2015/10/isis-reacts-to-russian-bombing-satire.html




From grarpamp at gmail.com  Sat Oct 31 00:40:55 2015
From: grarpamp at gmail.com (grarpamp)
Date: Sat, 31 Oct 2015 03:40:55 -0400
Subject: Bitcoin Halloween... A Dangerous Idea... They're Terrified We'll Use
 It
Message-ID: <CAD2Ti2-9KwURzTr9KjQLvP2VbhV+rOb-j7wGVw7Vqmwe-1LUnA@mail.gmail.com>

Bitcoin (Andreas M. Antonopoulos)
code.talks 2015 (ehem. Developer Conference)
https://www.codetalks.de/Published on Oct 29, 2015

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dB-CXu5ECIg&t=43m17s

It's Halloween, so terrify them, start using it tonight and
upport your favorite fiendish authors and friends... ;-)
bitcoin: 14Chgo1sK3N3ng8sZMkbxVkH4EZ4E8dHXu




From grarpamp at gmail.com  Sat Oct 31 01:02:19 2015
From: grarpamp at gmail.com (grarpamp)
Date: Sat, 31 Oct 2015 04:02:19 -0400
Subject: Amish man sues government to buy firearm without photo ID
In-Reply-To: <CAHKdp-kGceJgAYDEFYmdgTGXBxgu6DExGNNCj0a5C8oSvN1pwg@mail.gmail.com>
References: <1DBAEE53BBD942208581F479125E925B@atii>
 <CAOsGNSTg_ACrneefSAgFsr9r6njywDOhD_X87UERV9agNVqVTA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAHKdp-kGceJgAYDEFYmdgTGXBxgu6DExGNNCj0a5C8oSvN1pwg@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAD2Ti282zzOKHSAFGinwa8vL-5akCyd+Mgo0rwWKmd4913_JwA@mail.gmail.com>

On Fri, Oct 30, 2015 at 2:05 PM, Sean Lynch <seanl at literati.org> wrote:
> On Fri, Oct 30, 2015 at 2:51 AM Zenaan Harkness <zen at freedbms.net> wrote:
>>
>> One for supporting. In fact, anyone know -how- he could be supported?

"Shall Not Be Infringed"

> I hope they start making their own guns

It's completely legal to manufacture certain classes of weapons
for personal or other use. Doesn't mean it's constitutional, and
it sure isn't freedom. Read the docs.

> Or in fact to exercise any other right without photo ID.

What?! You mean restore the US and lots of rights and
lack of govt / corp tax, restriction and control over people
to the way it was before the 1920's and all the bullshit
lawmaking since then? People wouldn't know what to do
with the self responsibility, those old ways are forgotten
in favor of their minders and teats.

> Or maybe they'll just send in the ATF tanks, burn down their houses, and
> pretend the Amish set the fire themselves.

Probably yes, they dig ragekilling people who just want
to be left alone over stupid paper violations.

This guy needs to win this case.




From zen at freedbms.net  Fri Oct 30 21:23:12 2015
From: zen at freedbms.net (Zenaan Harkness)
Date: Sat, 31 Oct 2015 04:23:12 +0000
Subject: VICE Magazine Beheads It's Canary
In-Reply-To: <5633F53D.4070805@riseup.net>
References: <5633F53D.4070805@riseup.net>
Message-ID: <CAOsGNST3GzpAdP0pbKCQswvG6Xr5HSsirYOMHgg0HftLSvZtww@mail.gmail.com>

On 10/30/15, Razer <Rayzer at riseup.net> wrote:
> Americas:
>
> VICE News Battles Canadian Police Over Right to Protect Journalist's
> Material
...

Great to see at least one media outlet fighting a good free expression fight.

(The subject made me think VICE magazine was doing the wrong thing.
But they are fighting "the Crown" in Canada for their right to
publish, and against the gag etc orders. That's a good thing. They
seem to be acting -as- the canary in the coal mine, rather than
beheading their canary in the coal mine... I guess I'm reading it the
wrong way.)




From zen at freedbms.net  Fri Oct 30 21:55:45 2015
From: zen at freedbms.net (Zenaan Harkness)
Date: Sat, 31 Oct 2015 04:55:45 +0000
Subject: Such a democratic American
Message-ID: <CAOsGNSQ4WJGK=UUe9SW0d14iL2matCvT_gkVXxSvqP6edHha+g@mail.gmail.com>

"Ukrainian Wikileaks: McCain and Saakashvili are plotting to shoot
down American plane in Syria to blame Russia [transcript]"
http://fortruss.blogspot.ru/2015/10/ukrainian-wikileaks-mccain-and.html

Can someone who reads Russian please let us know the dates on this
conversation - the article has a date, and I can see a date on the
Ukrainian wikileaks page but I cannot tell when this conversation
happened. I would like to know if it was before MH-17 or in recent
times.

Thanks,
Zenaan




From carimachet at gmail.com  Fri Oct 30 20:03:31 2015
From: carimachet at gmail.com (Cari Machet)
Date: Sat, 31 Oct 2015 05:03:31 +0200
Subject: The Black List
In-Reply-To: <CAJVRA1Qj+OcV=Zi9y6AnJfpHESqPaJ87AUGvhCgP7wxvq+Swtg@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAOsGNSRtcpFPJwbBiSM887a8fw8-gBcvjWH8miK=XFML1w1CUA@mail.gmail.com>
 <1397033706.5987460.1446226782006.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com>
 <CAJVRA1Qj+OcV=Zi9y6AnJfpHESqPaJ87AUGvhCgP7wxvq+Swtg@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAGRDzQWp6SuJnOcPjLq=h92K2okyeFEZNippvaoL7P8nzEMrRA@mail.gmail.com>

Law mother fucking suit ... i will contact my lawyer friends - see if
anyone thinks you have standing
On Oct 30, 2015 2:05 PM, "coderman" <coderman at gmail.com> wrote:

> On 10/30/15, jim bell <jdb10987 at yahoo.com> wrote:
> >  ...
> > Liz (Megan Boone) is jubilant to learn the
> > president has commissioned an
> > investigation that could clear her name,
>
> we all seek vindication; relate-able!
>
>
> > but Red (James Spader) is desperate
> > to get on the move.
>
> is move slang for hustl'n?
>
>
> > It seems mythical vigilante assassin Wendigo
> > has Liz in his sights.
>
> mythical vigilante assassins are the worst.
>  and it's never clear just how many there are out there!
>
>
> > Unfortunately, after Red tracks down Wendigo and drops him off a
> > roof, the bullets keep coming,
>
> see what i mean!
>  are they life prisoners under mind control tryptamines and benzos?
>   crab people??
>
>
> > which is when Liz realizes there's a
> > crowd-sourced bounty on her head on the dark web.
>
>
> > Red asks the FBI to help keep her safe,
>
> does he want her killed, too?
>
>
> > and Aram (Amir Arison) tracks down the bounty site's webmaster,
>
> it was weaponized cyber munitions tipped with 0day, wasn't it?
> those can track down ANYBODY!
>
>
> > who claims they'll need the creator of the original post,
> > Arioch Cain, to delete it once and for all.
>
> i think they mean revoke the bounty. but i forgive this oversight.
> PLOT TWIST: Arioch Cain, is a altcoin hedge fund automaton, it can't
> be stopped!
>
>
>
> > Meanwhile, Red and Liz wait for Dembe (Hisham Tawfiq) in a Manhattan Park
>
> sorry, i can't take it any more. self medicating until i forget this
> ever happened!
>
> *sobbing* ...
>
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From carimachet at gmail.com  Fri Oct 30 20:07:08 2015
From: carimachet at gmail.com (Cari Machet)
Date: Sat, 31 Oct 2015 05:07:08 +0200
Subject: Cypherpunks is broken
In-Reply-To: <563298BC.9010909@riseup.net>
References: <48b20a0d7226de7ec81e6a2eefacbec0@ownbay.net>
 <20151029162224.GA6666@antiproton.jfet.org>
 <20151029165911.B5C60C0001E@frontend1.nyi.internal>
 <CAHWD2rJZkULZ8fJXbjT_jov0WHfihT0LRYXjAH+QJH-tQH618Q@mail.gmail.com>
 <E1ZrrSn-00079a-IM@elasmtp-curtail.atl.sa.earthlink.net>
 <563292FE.2070405@mbox301.swipnet.se> <563298BC.9010909@riseup.net>
Message-ID: <CAGRDzQVF4GUfWxNcUySsVPcx6d3tZoH7m23a_q0EWseF332TFg@mail.gmail.com>

Death is a myth ... there is only transformation

Shape shifting
On Oct 29, 2015 5:14 PM, "Mirimir" <mirimir at riseup.net> wrote:

> On 10/29/2015 03:43 PM, Mob wrote:
> > John Young wrote:
> >> ...half a dozen are dead, dying, diseased...
> >
> > TCM?
> >
> >  - - Mob
>
> I was guessing that TCM is "raising wild pussies on a hilltop armed to
> the gizzard against PETA warriors". From what I remember.
>
>
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From rysiek at hackerspace.pl  Fri Oct 30 22:07:05 2015
From: rysiek at hackerspace.pl (rysiek)
Date: Sat, 31 Oct 2015 06:07:05 +0100
Subject: Such a democratic American
In-Reply-To: <CAOsGNSQ4WJGK=UUe9SW0d14iL2matCvT_gkVXxSvqP6edHha+g@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAOsGNSQ4WJGK=UUe9SW0d14iL2matCvT_gkVXxSvqP6edHha+g@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <289256679.Dsi0LAtNf9@lapuntu>

Dnia sobota, 31 października 2015 04:55:45 Zenaan Harkness pisze:
> "Ukrainian Wikileaks: McCain and Saakashvili are plotting to shoot
> down American plane in Syria to blame Russia [transcript]"
> http://fortruss.blogspot.ru/2015/10/ukrainian-wikileaks-mccain-and.html

I am starting to wonder if this is the "Bashing America" mailing list. I mean, 
not a huge fan of the US regime myself, but "cypherpunks" -- it seems to me -- 
sugests at least a bit of tech-related stuff.

-- 
Pozdrawiam,
Michał "rysiek" Woźniak

Zmieniam klucz GPG :: http://rys.io/pl/147
GPG Key Transition :: http://rys.io/en/147
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From Rayzer at riseup.net  Sat Oct 31 08:49:50 2015
From: Rayzer at riseup.net (Razer)
Date: Sat, 31 Oct 2015 08:49:50 -0700
Subject: VICE Magazine Beheads It's Canary
In-Reply-To: <CAOsGNST3GzpAdP0pbKCQswvG6Xr5HSsirYOMHgg0HftLSvZtww@mail.gmail.com>
References: <5633F53D.4070805@riseup.net>
 <CAOsGNST3GzpAdP0pbKCQswvG6Xr5HSsirYOMHgg0HftLSvZtww@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <5634E31E.7030100@riseup.net>



On 10/30/2015 09:23 PM, Zenaan Harkness wrote:
> On 10/30/15, Razer <Rayzer at riseup.net> wrote:
>> Americas:
>>
>> VICE News Battles Canadian Police Over Right to Protect Journalist's
>> Material
> ...
>
> Great to see at least one media outlet fighting a good free expression fight.
>
> (The subject made me think VICE magazine was doing the wrong thing.
> But they are fighting "the Crown" in Canada for their right to
> publish, and against the gag etc orders. That's a good thing. They
> seem to be acting -as- the canary in the coal mine, rather than
> beheading their canary in the coal mine... I guess I'm reading it the
> wrong way.)
>

'executing their canary'... better?

RR

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From Rayzer at riseup.net  Sat Oct 31 09:47:32 2015
From: Rayzer at riseup.net (Razer)
Date: Sat, 31 Oct 2015 09:47:32 -0700
Subject: Shiny stuff and designer societies
In-Reply-To: <1566593.QzIpNvoidC@lapuntu>
References: <CAHWD2rJNTxt2+=0rPkkc+323pTn-njkvJVgUE624LShu2xg1Eg@mail.gmail.com>
 <1566593.QzIpNvoidC@lapuntu>
Message-ID: <5634F0A4.20105@riseup.net>


On 10/30/2015 06:40 PM, rysiek wrote:
> Dnia środa, 28 października 2015 16:08:44 Lodewijk andré de la porte pisze:
>> New threat, this is offtopic.
> How delightfully ironic that Syria is on-topic here:
> http://rys.io/en/39
>

> /Preliminary analysis revealed such keywords as /proxy/ and /Israel/
> were blocked. And of course, much porn/

/Tsk.

Btw, whjen Telecomix helps Pirate Bay, they're really assisting
Cloudflare's logging for da feds. Do they know?/

I'd rather be looking at Pentagon logs for US SOGs in Syria. The
sovereign Syrian government is battling a disinformation blitz. Claims
that Russians are bombing hospitals ... without a speck of proof, to
distract from the proven bombing of an MSF hospital by US forces that
KNEW it was a hospital, for example.

The intertubz is very MUCH a part of that war, and since I side with the
Syrian government, if only because the other option looks A LOT like
what NATO did to Libya, and since the only viable avenues Syria has to
prevent the US and other hostile forces from using it's communications
infrastructure as a weapon against it by CIA mercenaries from Chechnya,
Turkey at el, and their western based disinformation operators, would be
destruction of their civilian telecom system, or spy on that system just
like every other fucking country in the world does, with the US leading
the surveillance parade, I have no problem whatsoever with the Syrian
government keeping logs.

Everyone else does. EVERYONE.

It begs the question. What's your point?

RR

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From coderman at gmail.com  Sat Oct 31 16:44:50 2015
From: coderman at gmail.com (coderman)
Date: Sat, 31 Oct 2015 16:44:50 -0700
Subject: The BlackList
In-Reply-To: <604490017.259693.1446314995167.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com>
References: <CAGRDzQWp6SuJnOcPjLq=h92K2okyeFEZNippvaoL7P8nzEMrRA@mail.gmail.com>
 <604490017.259693.1446314995167.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <CAJVRA1RNQcEoROR17KpRS=MG5pWqibmVd_AYHakV-Ue5y8JXyQ@mail.gmail.com>

On 10/31/15, jim bell <jdb10987 at yahoo.com> wrote:
> ...
>     I also solved David Friedman's "Hard problem", see his book, "The
> Machinery of Freedom",  the previously-assumed difficulty or impossibility
> of providing for the defense of a fully libertarian or anarchistic society.


i'd support AP with a basic income in place. otherwise, the few
outliers could out leverage even the most widely prevalent crowd
dispositions...

basic income + assassination politics == awesome future!**

[ **this conjecture remains to be proven... ]


---


as an alternative vision, consider a world of humans sufficiently
educated and opportunity rich as to view violence anathema to global
maxima.

this, a much better solution to brute force.


best regards,




From coderman at gmail.com  Sat Oct 31 16:48:59 2015
From: coderman at gmail.com (coderman)
Date: Sat, 31 Oct 2015 16:48:59 -0700
Subject: Bitcoin Halloween... A Dangerous Idea... They're Terrified We'll
 Use It
In-Reply-To: <CAD2Ti2-9KwURzTr9KjQLvP2VbhV+rOb-j7wGVw7Vqmwe-1LUnA@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAD2Ti2-9KwURzTr9KjQLvP2VbhV+rOb-j7wGVw7Vqmwe-1LUnA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAJVRA1SVG4tdQ=v-763rqKhQpaHix_jYV2JwRh_5p8PojyFtVA@mail.gmail.com>

https://blockchainbdgpzk.onion/tx/6d0ffd7e5147232507054f70f4cea17b908c7f9826d81950f69c118d137b6fd7




From jdb10987 at yahoo.com  Sat Oct 31 11:09:55 2015
From: jdb10987 at yahoo.com (jim bell)
Date: Sat, 31 Oct 2015 18:09:55 +0000 (UTC)
Subject: The BlackList
In-Reply-To: <CAGRDzQWp6SuJnOcPjLq=h92K2okyeFEZNippvaoL7P8nzEMrRA@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAGRDzQWp6SuJnOcPjLq=h92K2okyeFEZNippvaoL7P8nzEMrRA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <604490017.259693.1446314995167.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com>


From themikebest at gmail.com  Sat Oct 31 15:35:45 2015
From: themikebest at gmail.com (Michael Best)
Date: Sat, 31 Oct 2015 18:35:45 -0400
Subject: Stealing The Network (novel) free ebook
Message-ID: <CANFTA08bjQimHDM9wDa0-P-Zffn25aBh0zaTFF_TxdHrinEmrw@mail.gmail.com>

If you haven't read it before, someone kindly posted Stealing The Network
series of novels online as a PDF.
http://www.lyraphase.com/doc/security/Stealing%20the%20Network/Stealing%20the%20Network%20-%20The%20Complete%20Series%20Collector's%20Edition.pdf

"Stealing the Network: How to Own the Box is a unique book in the fiction
department. It combines stories that are false, with technology that is
real. While none of the stories have happened, there is no reason why they
could not. You could argue it provides a road map for criminal hackers, but
I say it does something else; it provides a glimpse into the creative minds
of some of today's best hackers, and even the best hackers will tell you
that the game is a mental one." - from the foreword by Jeff Moss, President
& CEO, BlackHat, Inc.

*Stealing the Network* is a book of science fiction. It's a series of short
stories about characters who gain unauthorized access to equipment and
information, or deny use of those resources to the people who are meant to
have access to them. The characters, though sometimes well described, are
not the stars of these stories. That honor belongs to the tools that the
black-hat hackers use in their attacks, and also to the defensive measures
arrayed against them by the hapless sysadmins who, in this volume, always
lose. Consider this book, with its plentiful detail, the answer to every
pretty but functionally half-baked user interface ever shown in a feature
film.

One can read this book for entertainment, though its writing falls well
short of cyberpunk classics like *Burning Chrome
<http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0060539828/$%7B0%7D>* and *Snow
Crash <http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0553380958/$%7B0%7D>*. Its
value is in its explicit references to current technologies--Cisco routers,
OpenSSH, Windows 2000--and specific techniques for hacking them (the heroes
and heroines of this book are always generous with command-history dumps).
The specific detail may open your eyes to weaknesses in your own systems
(or give you some ideas for, ahem, looking around on the network).
Alternately, you can just enjoy the extra realism that the detail adds to
these stories of packetized adventure. *--David Wall*


The stories of the Stealing the Network series entertain in the same way
that "war stories" from fellow hackers and security professionals often
keeps a more intimate audience's interest: by mixing intriguing situations
with juicy technical detail that can serve as a useful take-away. No one
will accuse these books of containing fine literature, but that's not
really the point. The stories are well written enough to keep you wanting
to know what will happen next, while the technical information is as
accurate as you're likely to see in fiction. Segments involving hacking are
written and illustrated with enough attention to detail and length to serve
as introductory educational tutorials for the topics (including web
application hacking, reverse engineering, and wireless security). Most of
these scenarios are believable as parts of larger-scale operations. --McGrew
on Amazon
<http://www.amazon.com/review/R1Z4P33XFA3MWL/ref=cm_cr_dp_title?ie=UTF8&ASIN=B002ZFXTZ6&channel=detail-glance&nodeID=133140011&store=digital-text>
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From mirimir at riseup.net  Sat Oct 31 17:39:30 2015
From: mirimir at riseup.net (Mirimir)
Date: Sat, 31 Oct 2015 18:39:30 -0600
Subject: The BlackList
In-Reply-To: <CAJVRA1RNQcEoROR17KpRS=MG5pWqibmVd_AYHakV-Ue5y8JXyQ@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAGRDzQWp6SuJnOcPjLq=h92K2okyeFEZNippvaoL7P8nzEMrRA@mail.gmail.com>
 <604490017.259693.1446314995167.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com>
 <CAJVRA1RNQcEoROR17KpRS=MG5pWqibmVd_AYHakV-Ue5y8JXyQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <56355F42.6010803@riseup.net>

On 10/31/2015 05:44 PM, coderman wrote:
> On 10/31/15, jim bell <jdb10987 at yahoo.com> wrote:
>> ...
>>     I also solved David Friedman's "Hard problem", see his book, "The
>> Machinery of Freedom",  the previously-assumed difficulty or impossibility
>> of providing for the defense of a fully libertarian or anarchistic society.
> 
> 
> i'd support AP with a basic income in place. otherwise, the few
> outliers could out leverage even the most widely prevalent crowd
> dispositions...
> 
> basic income + assassination politics == awesome future!**
> 
> [ **this conjecture remains to be proven... ]

Well, back in the day, I thought AP way cool. But some years later, more
conscious of increasing concentration of wealth, I doubt that it would
improve on status quo. Sure, maybe crowd-funding would take down some
assholes. But serious assholes are seriously hard to kill. Also, it
would provide another mechanism for governments to covertly kill their
enemies.

I'm reminded of Kim's Shit Slaughter Squad in Burroughs' _Place of Dead
Roads_ about killing the assholes.

> as an alternative vision, consider a world of humans sufficiently
> educated and opportunity rich as to view violence anathema to global
> maxima.
> 
> this, a much better solution to brute force.

Sounds better to me :) Everything is permitted, with love as the law, as
Aleister Crowley was wont to say.

Hard problem.

> best regards,
> 




From coderman at gmail.com  Sat Oct 31 20:09:12 2015
From: coderman at gmail.com (coderman)
Date: Sat, 31 Oct 2015 20:09:12 -0700
Subject: Fwd: [Dailydave] Bots trying to unsub you
In-Reply-To: <563363EE.4050907@immunityinc.com>
References: <563363EE.4050907@immunityinc.com>
Message-ID: <CAJVRA1Qc8npjPOOqi-FMse=rw_PmOM5Rj828FhstW9=BtPOPjg@mail.gmail.com>

systemic issue. interesting...


---------- Forwarded message ----------
From: Dave Aitel <dave at immunityinc.com>
Date: Fri, 30 Oct 2015 08:34:54 -0400
Subject: [Dailydave] Bots trying to unsub you
To: "dailydave at lists.immunityinc.com" <dailydave at lists.immunityinc.com>

Bots constantly try to unsubscribe you from the list and so you may get
a bunch of messages about that, especially if you post. Ignore them.
Team IT is looking into it.

-dave
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From coderman at gmail.com  Sat Oct 31 20:10:40 2015
From: coderman at gmail.com (coderman)
Date: Sat, 31 Oct 2015 20:10:40 -0700
Subject: Bitcoin Halloween... A Dangerous Idea... They're Terrified We'll
 Use It
In-Reply-To: <1491567149.365787.1446341660984.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com>
References: <CAJVRA1SVG4tdQ=v-763rqKhQpaHix_jYV2JwRh_5p8PojyFtVA@mail.gmail.com>
 <1491567149.365787.1446341660984.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <CAJVRA1Qq7U_tn-KyvacFj3EEhu_omeht+TFhxjBEv3qiFGeUWQ@mail.gmail.com>

On 10/31/15, jim bell <jdb10987 at yahoo.com> wrote:
> ...
>>https://blockchainbdgpzk.onion/tx/6d0ffd7e5147232507054f70f4cea17b908c7f9826d81950f69c118d137b6fd7
> Response:  "This Webpage is not available."


hey Jim,

you can upgrade your "Web Experience (TM)" via Tor Browser:
  https://www.torproject.org/download/download-easy.html.en


best regards,
 :)




From coderman at gmail.com  Sat Oct 31 20:14:46 2015
From: coderman at gmail.com (coderman)
Date: Sat, 31 Oct 2015 20:14:46 -0700
Subject: The BlackList
In-Reply-To: <1037202149.356848.1446343429986.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com>
References: <56355F42.6010803@riseup.net>
 <1037202149.356848.1446343429986.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <CAJVRA1Ty3Mb44kg-ewaMq1JRqRPQtUFaaejbc7D9c3ho8bDBxw@mail.gmail.com>

On 10/31/15, jim bell <jdb10987 at yahoo.com> wrote:
> ...
> Are you assuming that "concentration of wealth" ISN'T a PRODUCT of
> government?  I believe AP will shrink or most likely eliminate government,
> certainly as we know it.

AP will shrink government (in public) concentration of wealth.

it will encourage and support covert concentration of wealth.
those who are best able to hide are most able to amass fortune.

thus, AP begets secrecy against others.
  not cooperation with others.

in other words: inefficient and cruel.




From coderman at gmail.com  Sat Oct 31 20:16:20 2015
From: coderman at gmail.com (coderman)
Date: Sat, 31 Oct 2015 20:16:20 -0700
Subject: The BlackList
In-Reply-To: <CAJVRA1Ty3Mb44kg-ewaMq1JRqRPQtUFaaejbc7D9c3ho8bDBxw@mail.gmail.com>
References: <56355F42.6010803@riseup.net>
 <1037202149.356848.1446343429986.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com>
 <CAJVRA1Ty3Mb44kg-ewaMq1JRqRPQtUFaaejbc7D9c3ho8bDBxw@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAJVRA1Turtcib+aYu4ezd2+c+_kWdmRU+0+xbdHbOV5cPP9esQ@mail.gmail.com>

On 10/31/15, coderman <coderman at gmail.com> wrote:
> ...
> in other words: inefficient and cruel.

yet still less inefficient and cruel than current super powers.
 thus still a win?

hmm...




From coderman at gmail.com  Sat Oct 31 20:20:26 2015
From: coderman at gmail.com (coderman)
Date: Sat, 31 Oct 2015 20:20:26 -0700
Subject: The BlackList: Murphy's lame reply
In-Reply-To: <660398518.377056.1446347080196.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com>
References: <563552F7.7000103@openmailbox.org>
 <610880110.330106.1446346260872.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com>
 <660398518.377056.1446347080196.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <CAJVRA1QFLE5oGrr=Kje565iEQ4EMGw0N5URrLf5g7HWRf+WENA@mail.gmail.com>

On 10/31/15, jim bell <jdb10987 at yahoo.com> wrote:
> ... Further, consider
>
>  https://github.com/isislovecruft/patternsinthevoid/blob/master/content/anarchism/game-theory-anarchism-ii-how-information-can-smash-the-state.md


"Therefore, it is statistically shown that the general human
population is incapable of rational thought for more than three
successive iterations."

this is the gist of the crux, is it not?

AP brings brutal math to bear. effective, yes. and cruel.

rational anarchy an ideal without brutish levers of any sort, yet how
to reach it?




From coderman at gmail.com  Sat Oct 31 20:24:23 2015
From: coderman at gmail.com (coderman)
Date: Sat, 31 Oct 2015 20:24:23 -0700
Subject: Bitcoin Halloween... A Dangerous Idea... They're Terrified We'll
 Use It
In-Reply-To: <1702754326.357522.1446347780724.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com>
References: <CAJVRA1Qq7U_tn-KyvacFj3EEhu_omeht+TFhxjBEv3qiFGeUWQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <1702754326.357522.1446347780724.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <CAJVRA1SWqiexxXuoOD1B9+gPs+0d=QsJyNT5mnquW+51Lo7MvQ@mail.gmail.com>

On 10/31/15, jim bell <jdb10987 at yahoo.com> wrote:
> ...
> Generally, I'm not interested in "upgrading" anything.  I just want things
> to WORK.  Should I have been able to access the site using my browser?


Jim, you are 100% right.  asking above and beyond better come with a benefit!

who the fuck and why for onions?  DON'T CARE!

...

this played out in a thread on twitter about Tor Messenger,

"Fuck! Disappointed to learn that Tor Messenger doesn't include
logging of chats. I thought we'd learned…"
- https://twitter.com/zooko/status/660627576990203904

...

earth humans, you scare me!
  - me on every day of the year.




From coderman at gmail.com  Sat Oct 31 20:48:25 2015
From: coderman at gmail.com (coderman)
Date: Sat, 31 Oct 2015 20:48:25 -0700
Subject: The BlackList: Murphy's lame reply
In-Reply-To: <1604635709.341666.1446348516179.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com>
References: <CAJVRA1QFLE5oGrr=Kje565iEQ4EMGw0N5URrLf5g7HWRf+WENA@mail.gmail.com>
 <1604635709.341666.1446348516179.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <CAJVRA1RvQxoMR4R10RhBZ_XK-2xet2kzh_HWWVoZ1hGguGFQNw@mail.gmail.com>

On 10/31/15, jim bell <jdb10987 at yahoo.com> wrote:
> ...
> Uh, it's hard to understand what you are saying.

second time today.

<z> Uh, yeah no offense, but I don't understand what you're trying to say here.
<me> BTW, i will never take offense at those seeking clarification.
more and more i find myself unable to converse with others.
<me>  i assume this is due to increasingly smaller shared context and
experience among people, but it could also be my crazy :P

.
.
.

i guess this sides with crazy!



to be more clear:
- Assasination politics: easy to compute, easy to apply, globally inefficient.
- Rational anarchy: difficult to compute, difficult to apply, globally optimal.

just because AP is better that Status Quo, does not mean that AP is
the ideal to strive toward.




From coderman at gmail.com  Sat Oct 31 20:53:09 2015
From: coderman at gmail.com (coderman)
Date: Sat, 31 Oct 2015 20:53:09 -0700
Subject: information imbalance - The Rise of Plitical Doxing [ bonus points
 for contrast with AP! :]
Message-ID: <CAJVRA1QgvXG8R12s=M8avNe6sD9kx3pBTt0SRQ2TxcwSxQgybw@mail.gmail.com>

http://motherboard.vice.com/read/the-rise-of-political-doxing

Last week, CIA director John O. Brennan became the latest victim of
what's become a popular way to embarrass and harass people on the
internet. A hacker allegedly broke into his AOL account and published
emails and documents found inside, many of them personal and
sensitive.

It's called doxing—sometimes doxxing—from the word "documents." It
emerged in the 1990s as a hacker revenge tactic, and has since been as
a tool to harass and intimidate people on the internet. Someone would
threaten a woman with physical harm, or try to incite others to harm
her, and publish her personal information as a way of saying "I know a
lot about you—like where you live and work." Victims of doxing talk
about the fear that this tactic instills. It's very effective, by
which I mean that it's horrible.

Brennan's doxing was slightly different. Here, the attacker had a more
political motive. He wasn't out to intimidate Brennan; he simply
wanted to embarrass him. His personal papers were dumped
indiscriminately, fodder for an eager press. This doxing was a
political act, and we're seeing this kind of thing more and more.

    Lots of people will have to face the publication of personal
correspondence, documents, and information they would rather be
private

Last year, the government of North Korea allegedly did this to Sony.
Hackers the FBI believes were working for North Korea broke into the
company's networks, stole a huge amount of corporate data, and
published it. This included unreleased movies, financial information,
company plans, and personal emails. The reputational damage to the
company was enormous; the company estimated the cost at $41 million.

In July, hackers stole and published sensitive documents from the
cyberweapons arms manufacturer Hacking Team. That same month,
different hackers did the same thing to the infidelity website Ashley
Madison. In 2014, hackers broke into the iCloud accounts of over 100
celebrities and published personal photographs, most containing some
nudity. In 2013, Edward Snowden doxed the NSA.

These aren't the first instances of politically motivated doxing, but
there's a clear trend. As people realize what an effective attack this
can be, and how an individual can use the tactic to do considerable
damage to powerful people and institutions, we're going to see a lot
more of it.

On the internet, attack is easier than defense. We're living in a
world where a sufficiently skilled and motivated attacker will
circumvent network security. Even worse, most internet security
assumes it needs to defend against an opportunistic attacker who will
attack the weakest network in order to get—for example—a pile of
credit card numbers. The notion of a targeted attacker, who wants Sony
or Ashley Madison or John Brennan because of what they stand for, is
still new. And it's even harder to defend against.

What this means is that we're going to see more political doxing in
the future, against both people and institutions. It's going to be a
factor in elections. It's going to be a factor in anti-corporate
activism. More people will find their personal information exposed to
the world: politicians, corporate executives, celebrities, divisive
and outspoken individuals.

Of course they won't all be doxed, but some of them will. Some of them
will be doxed directly, like Brennan. Some of them will be inadvertent
victims of a doxing attack aimed at a company where their information
is stored, like those celebrities with iPhone accounts and every
customer of Ashley Madison. Regardless of the method, lots of people
will have to face the publication of personal correspondence,
documents, and information they would rather be private.

In the end, doxing is a tactic that the powerless can effectively use
against the powerful. It can be used for whistleblowing. It can be
used as a vehicle for social change. And it can be used to embarrass,
harass, and intimidate. Its popularity will rise and fall on this
effectiveness, especially in a world where prosecuting the doxers is
so difficult.

There's no good solution for this right now. We all have the right to
privacy, and we should be free from doxing. But we're not, and those
of us who are in the public eye have no choice but to rethink our
online data shadows.




From coderman at gmail.com  Sat Oct 31 21:01:46 2015
From: coderman at gmail.com (coderman)
Date: Sat, 31 Oct 2015 21:01:46 -0700
Subject: Multnomah County Common Law Court
Message-ID: <CAJVRA1Si7xTy5xkeociSpEUKmNYUHLDo2tjqJ+NiFEWKkPU8TA@mail.gmail.com>

hey Jim,

Multnomah County Common Law Court sounds awesome. are there details
about this effort anywhere online?

best regards,
  [ from Washington County :]




From coderman at gmail.com  Sat Oct 31 21:03:11 2015
From: coderman at gmail.com (coderman)
Date: Sat, 31 Oct 2015 21:03:11 -0700
Subject: Delivery failure
In-Reply-To: <415299.16763.bm@omp1044.mail.ne1.yahoo.com>
References: <415299.16763.bm@omp1044.mail.ne1.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <CAJVRA1RsvEidA+w2QVYnqN5ZZftKSkZp_-xykVLgzVKvePOgnA@mail.gmail.com>

looks like they fully killed your prior accounts, Jim.


On 10/31/15, MAILER-DAEMON at yahoo.com <MAILER-DAEMON at yahoo.com> wrote:
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> Message-ID:
> <CAJVRA1Si7xTy5xkeociSpEUKmNYUHLDo2tjqJ+NiFEWKkPU8TA at mail.gmail.com>
> Subject: Multnomah County Common Law Court
> From: coderman <coderman at gmail.com>
> To: Jim Bell <jamesdbell8 at yahoo.com>, jim bell <jdb10987 at yahoo.com>,
> 	jim bell <jamesdbell9 at yahoo.com>, cpunks <cypherpunks at cpunks.org>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8
>
> hey Jim,
>
> Multnomah County Common Law Court sounds awesome. are there details
> about this effort anywhere online?
>
> best regards,
>   [ from Washington County :]
>
> *** MESSAGE TRUNCATED ***
>
>
> .
>




From coderman at gmail.com  Sat Oct 31 21:30:08 2015
From: coderman at gmail.com (coderman)
Date: Sat, 31 Oct 2015 21:30:08 -0700
Subject: The BlackList: Murphy's lame reply
In-Reply-To: <858597672.375547.1446350907320.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com>
References: <CAJVRA1RvQxoMR4R10RhBZ_XK-2xet2kzh_HWWVoZ1hGguGFQNw@mail.gmail.com>
 <858597672.375547.1446350907320.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <CAJVRA1R-bVNjNFv70s+W3anKJVKgSRC2RskeojsHPaT2NxCKUA@mail.gmail.com>

On 10/31/15, jim bell <jdb10987 at yahoo.com> wrote:
> ...
> But you don't explain why it's "inefficient".  You only allege it.

fair enough. my assertion relies on the fact that conflict is
destructive in some manner, and cooperation is productive in some
manner.

sometimes, you must defeat bad ideas for the good to thrive:
 this is the essence of our age: competition for survival of the fittest.
yet there is a limit to what competition can achieve.

---

consider that competition can never reach a solution at which full
cooperation will arrive. thus, if competition defines our current age,
which leads to resource exhaustion,

cooperation leads to abundance for all, given sufficient technology,
and a better age above our cruel origins.

---

this is the great divide:

do we carry on with cruelty?

or do we strive for cooperation?



> What is "rational anarchy"?  On Google-search, I see a reference to
> Heinlein's "The Moon is  a harsh mistress".  I read that a decade ago, but I
> don't connect what you are saying with it.

it is an ideal: a state of society in educated awareness and cohesion,
without centralized authority, working toward a collective best end.


> But again, you don't explain why
> it's "globally optimal".For that matter, you haven't explained WHAT
> "globally optimal" means.

it is globally optimal because there is only cooperation. no
destruction competition.

by definition, the efforts of the losers are "waste".


>  You seem to be assuming a lot today.Further,
> while it's hard to understand, "globally optimal" sounds like it might assume
> a compromise, in contrast to equality.    Why should I accept
> something which you call "globally optimal" if someting else is better for
> ME, personally?

bingo. the crux!

a globally cooperative society would chose this, because it is best
for all, which is best for you. (and not in a "I'm going to kill you,
to save humanity" triviality sense.)

we're getting at the meat of the argument, which is a system and
technology and society which leverages technology in a productive
manner - rational anarchy - instead of a destructive manner - AP
selective killing.



> Unfortunately, that sounds like a truism.  If you agree that AP is better
> than the Status Quo, then unless you (or somebody else) can establish
> somethingis better than AP, you don't establish that AP shouldn't be the
> goal, at least temporarily.

i am aiming for something better.

i don't expect to convince anyone until the argument is formed. i also
reserve the right to proclaim that better options exist.

this is my beef with AP: that we may see it a solution, in near term,
missing a greener pasture at the distance...


best regards,




From coderman at gmail.com  Sat Oct 31 21:45:35 2015
From: coderman at gmail.com (coderman)
Date: Sat, 31 Oct 2015 21:45:35 -0700
Subject: Value of Earth Human Life
Message-ID: <CAJVRA1SJRhk3C-kdAc6=8O7pG=c6-53qSmbUi89Oe-jn9qCDPA@mail.gmail.com>

for a US citizen:
 $7.9mm to $9.4mm

for a Russian citizen:
 $40,000 to $2mm

other legal precedent:
 ~$200,000-400,000 each earth human.


for an AP target?  should there be a "minimum kill price"?

- https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Value_of_life




From carimachet at gmail.com  Sat Oct 31 13:49:55 2015
From: carimachet at gmail.com (Cari Machet)
Date: Sat, 31 Oct 2015 22:49:55 +0200
Subject: The BlackList
In-Reply-To: <604490017.259693.1446314995167.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com>
References: <CAGRDzQWp6SuJnOcPjLq=h92K2okyeFEZNippvaoL7P8nzEMrRA@mail.gmail.com>
 <604490017.259693.1446314995167.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <CAGRDzQX7tGxG9HN7AdPmHFDP1GWb4Cz9kSkJuOPAHAPQv6i7eA@mail.gmail.com>

incredible brain functionality and the basis of the justice system >>>>>
death penalty supporters state it as deterrent

your idea solves that

i will try to find that book ... not on amazon so thanks

restorative justice is a form mostly in development but actually it is old
and tribes use it still today ... just western development is lagging

yay enforcement of shit is a problem until you have lived making some
fucking goon leave a space ... it works too well and is organic ... a purge
by organisms

fuck the state in everyone

On Sat, Oct 31, 2015 at 8:09 PM, jim bell <jdb10987 at yahoo.com> wrote:

> *From:* Cari Machet <carimachet at gmail.com>
> *To:* coderman <coderman at gmail.com>
> *Cc:* cpunks <cypherpunks at cpunks.org>; jim bell <jdb10987 at yahoo.com>
> *Sent:* Friday, October 30, 2015 8:03 PM
> *Subject:* Re: The Black List
>
> >Law mother fucking suit ... i will contact my lawyer friends - see if
> anyone thinks you have standing
>
>     Don't bother.  It was somewhat of a joke for me to mention the "story
> royalty" line.   Since having spent thousands of hours in Federal prison
> law libraries, I studied many different areas of law, far beyond criminal
> law and appeals, including copyright law.  I am not aware that copyright
> law would protect such an idea.  If I had written a play or a script for a
> movie, THAT would be my own under copyright law.  But not merely the
> underlying idea.  Now, nothing would prevent one of these studios from
> giving me some sort of credit on a line at the end of the show, but they
> wouldn't owe me money legally.  I am much more upset that they took TWENTY
> FUCKING YEARS to steal the idea, than the fact they 'stole' it.
>
>     I should also take the opportunity to point out that I wrote my AP
> essay independently from, and completely unaware of, the previous
> discussions by Tim May and Robin Hanson.  (I didn't even have Internet
> access, except as a portal, until mid-1995, and was entirely unaware of the
> Cypherpunks list;  AP part one was actually published here by somebody
> else.).
>
>     The major differences included:  Tim May and Robin Hanson both
> referred to the idea, the one that would one day be seen as "assassination
> markets", as being "abhorrent markets".  See Cyphernomicon 16.16.4. That
> they were repelled by the idea, presumably, is one reason they didn't
> rhetorically follow the concept out to its ultimate, logical outcome.  I,
> on the other hand, and totally unaware of their work, thought that
> assassination markets would actually be a truly wonderful idea, precisely
> because of their capability to destroy governments, make militaries
> unnecessary and indeed impossible to maintain (critically, including
> nuclear weapons), and completely replace the current 'criminal justice
> system' with a far-fairer alternative.  THEY merely stuck their big toes
> into the cold pool, whereas I did a belly-flop.  (With the accompanying
> pain, <sigh>).
>
>     They probably started out by thinking something like, "If person A can
> anonymously hire person B to kill person C, that could lead to mischief."
>  Sure it could.  But I approached the problem differently:  I saw that very
> few people would want to pay, say, $10,000 to buy someone else's death.
> But I immediately also saw that 10,000 people might want to pay $1 each for
> that outcome.  That amounts to a crowdsourced decision, with its
> accompanying advantages and benefits.  And I also saw that such a
> functioning system would deter virtually everything which we call wrong in
> today's society.  Anybody who is trying to argue against an AP-type system
> is inherently attempting to defend the hugely flawed status quo, even if
> they don't realize that.
>
>     I also solved David Friedman's "Hard problem", see his book, "The
> Machinery of Freedom",  the previously-assumed difficulty or impossibility
> of providing for the defense of a fully libertarian or anarchistic
> society.  Perhaps my big advantage was that I didn't know Friedman's "Hard
> Problem" even existed, at least under that label, until long after I'd
> already solved it.
>
>                  Jim Bell
>
>
>
>
>


-- 
Cari Machet
NYC 646-436-7795
carimachet at gmail.com
AIM carismachet
Syria +963-099 277 3243
Amman +962 077 636 9407
Berlin +49 152 11779219
Reykjavik +354 894 8650
Twitter: @carimachet <https://twitter.com/carimachet>

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From intelemetry at openmailbox.org  Sat Oct 31 16:47:03 2015
From: intelemetry at openmailbox.org (intelemetry)
Date: Sat, 31 Oct 2015 23:47:03 +0000
Subject: The BlackList
In-Reply-To: <604490017.259693.1446314995167.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com>
References: <CAGRDzQWp6SuJnOcPjLq=h92K2okyeFEZNippvaoL7P8nzEMrRA@mail.gmail.com>
 <604490017.259693.1446314995167.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <563552F7.7000103@openmailbox.org>

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA512



jim bell:
> From: Cari Machet <carimachet at gmail.com> To: coderman
> <coderman at gmail.com> Cc: cpunks <cypherpunks at cpunks.org>; jim bell
> <jdb10987 at yahoo.com> Sent: Friday, October 30, 2015 8:03 PM 
> Subject: Re: The Black List
> 
>> Law mother fucking suit ... i will contact my lawyer friends -
>> see if anyone thinks you have standing
> Don't bother.  It was somewhat of a joke for me to mention the
> "story royalty" line.   Since having spent thousands of hours in
> Federal prison law libraries, I studied many different areas of
> law, far beyond criminal law and appeals, including copyright law.
> I am not aware that copyright law would protect such an idea.  If I
> had written a play or a script for a movie, THAT would be my own
> under copyright law.  But not merely the underlying idea.  Now,
> nothing would prevent one of these studios from giving me some sort
> of credit on a line at the end of the show, but they wouldn't owe
> me money legally.  I am much more upset that they took TWENTY
> FUCKING YEARS to steal the idea, than the fact they 'stole' it. I
> should also take the opportunity to point out that I wrote my AP
> essay independently from, and completely unaware of, the previous
> discussions by Tim May and Robin Hanson.  (I didn't even have
> Internet access, except as a portal, until mid-1995, and was
> entirely unaware of the Cypherpunks list;  AP part one was actually
> published here by somebody else.). The major differences included:
> Tim May and Robin Hanson both referred to the idea, the one that
> would one day be seen as "assassination markets", as being
> "abhorrent markets".  See Cyphernomicon 16.16.4. That they were
> repelled by the idea, presumably, is one reason they didn't
> rhetorically follow the concept out to its ultimate, logical
> outcome.  I, on the other hand, and totally unaware of their work,
> thought that assassination markets would actually be a truly
> wonderful idea, precisely because of their capability to destroy
> governments, make militaries unnecessary and indeed impossible to
> maintain (critically, including nuclear weapons), and completely
> replace the current 'criminal justice system' with a far-fairer
> alternative.  THEY merely stuck their big toes into the cold pool,
> whereas I did a belly-flop.  (With the accompanying pain, <sigh>).
>  They probably started out by thinking something like, "If person A
> can anonymously hire person B to kill person C, that could lead to
> mischief."  Sure it could.  But I approached the problem
> differently:  I saw that very few people would want to pay, say,
> $10,000 to buy someone else's death.  But I immediately also saw
> that 10,000 people might want to pay $1 each for that outcome.
> That amounts to a crowdsourced decision, with its accompanying
> advantages and benefits.  And I also saw that such a functioning
> system would deter virtually everything which we call wrong in
> today's society.  Anybody who is trying to argue against an AP-type
> system is inherently attempting to defend the hugely flawed status
> quo, even if they don't realize that. I also solved David
> Friedman's "Hard problem", see his book, "The Machinery of
> Freedom",  the previously-assumed difficulty or impossibility of
> providing for the defense of a fully libertarian or anarchistic
> society.  Perhaps my big advantage was that I didn't know
> Friedman's "Hard Problem" even existed, at least under that label,
> until long after I'd already solved it.

Claiming that an assassination market solves the defense problem in
Friedman's utilitarian and general anarchocapitalism is very bold.
You have a betting pool for killing people.

You don't have any sort of collection of funds that protect a society
from something like everyday crime, you've merely got a hit market.

Your idea is effectively crowdsourcing, which in many ways could be
very useful for Friedman's hard problem. However, while remaining
purely voluntary in nature, what differentiates your assassination
market from:

	- taxes (compulsory collection of small amounts from many)
	- hits (a few wealthy individuals take out a contract)

Moreover, you still are facing the 'free-rider' problem, where, "if
everybody else in my community payed a dollar to kill this guy, why
should I have to do so, it is only -1 dollar.

I am neither trying to discredit nor insult your ideas; just curious
if you could expound upon how an assassination market fits into
defense in a free society.

This video might help set the context:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V0_Jd_MzGCw
'The Market for Security | Robert P. Murphy '

- - Intelemetry


PS, though I may sound like one, not a statist.

 Jim Bell
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
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From mirimir at riseup.net  Sat Oct 31 23:11:25 2015
From: mirimir at riseup.net (Mirimir)
Date: Sun, 1 Nov 2015 00:11:25 -0600
Subject: The BlackList
In-Reply-To: <1037202149.356848.1446343429986.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com>
References: <56355F42.6010803@riseup.net>
 <1037202149.356848.1446343429986.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <5635AD0D.6040807@riseup.net>

On 10/31/2015 08:03 PM, jim bell wrote:
> From: Mirimir <mirimir at riseup.ne

<SNIP>

> Are you assuming that "concentration of wealth" ISN'T a PRODUCT
> of government?

Yes, I am. One legitimate function of government is to limit the
concentration and power of wealth, and ameliorate impacts on others.
Society needs concentrated wealth, of course. But concentrated wealth
tends to subvert government, in ways that support further concentration.
The US crapped out in about 1870.

> I believe AP will shrink or most likely eliminate government,
> certainly as we know it.  Do you know this wouldn't fix the
> "concentration of wealth" problem?

I don't know. But it doesn't scale well. Even with adequate site
security and logistics, and adequate funding, there are too many
assholes that need killing. And I worry that it would be gamed.

Bottom line: I don't believe that we can get there from here.

> And what's wrong with "concentration of wealth" if it occurs as
> a product only of non-aggression?  (Like some capitalist
> offering a better product, for a lower price.)

Only sick fucks are in it for the money ;)

>> Sure, maybe crowd-funding would take down some assholes. But
>> serious assholes are seriously hard to kill. 
> If they are truly "serious assholes" then they will piss off
> large numbers of people.  That means many people will be
> donating to see them stop it. More people donating means a
> smaller donation per person will be sufficient.

You assuming far too much rationality.

>> Also, it would provide another mechanism for governments to
>> covertly kill their enemies.
> In order for governments to kill their enemies, they first must
> know who their enemies are.  Merely by remaining silent, for
> awhile, a person can conceal himself as an "enemy" of governments.
> They can use AP to get rid of those governments, silently.

With prevailing surveillance and general cluelessness, AP sites would be
honeypots.

>> I'm reminded of Kim's Shit Slaughter Squad in Burroughs' _Place of
>> Dead Roads_ about killing the assholes.
> Never heard of it. Jim Bell

It's about killing the "ten to twenty percent of folks who can't mind
their own business" and who are committed to being right. But of course,
he's being ironic.




From jdb10987 at yahoo.com  Sat Oct 31 18:34:20 2015
From: jdb10987 at yahoo.com (jim bell)
Date: Sun, 1 Nov 2015 01:34:20 +0000 (UTC)
Subject: Bitcoin Halloween... A Dangerous Idea... They're Terrified
 We'll Use It
In-Reply-To: <CAJVRA1SVG4tdQ=v-763rqKhQpaHix_jYV2JwRh_5p8PojyFtVA@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAJVRA1SVG4tdQ=v-763rqKhQpaHix_jYV2JwRh_5p8PojyFtVA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <1491567149.365787.1446341660984.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com>



  From: coderman <coderman at gmail.com>
 To: grarpamp <grarpamp at gmail.com> 

>https://blockchainbdgpzk.onion/tx/6d0ffd7e5147232507054f70f4cea17b908c7f9826d81950f69c118d137b6fd7
Response:  "This Webpage is not available."





  
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From jdb10987 at yahoo.com  Sat Oct 31 18:42:42 2015
From: jdb10987 at yahoo.com (jim bell)
Date: Sun, 1 Nov 2015 01:42:42 +0000 (UTC)
Subject: The BlackList
In-Reply-To: <CAJVRA1RNQcEoROR17KpRS=MG5pWqibmVd_AYHakV-Ue5y8JXyQ@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAJVRA1RNQcEoROR17KpRS=MG5pWqibmVd_AYHakV-Ue5y8JXyQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <395699091.334583.1446342162585.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com>

  From: coderman <coderman at gmail.com>
 To: jim bell <jdb10987 at yahoo.com> 
Cc: Cari Machet <carimachet at gmail.com>; cpunks <cypherpunks at cpunks.org> 
On 10/31/15, jim bell <jdb10987 at yahoo.com> wrote:


> ...
>>    I also solved David Friedman's "Hard problem", see his book, "The
>> Machinery of Freedom",  the previously-assumed difficulty or impossibility
>> of providing for the defense of a fully libertarian or anarchistic society.
>i'd support AP with a basic income in place. otherwise, the few
>outliers could out leverage even the most widely prevalent crowd
>dispositions...
>basic income + assassination politics == awesome future!**[ **this conjecture remains to be proven... ]

This sounds like a contradiction in terms.  "basic income" implies that somebody is forced to provide somebody else an income.  Someone using force is anathemato AP:   Anyone feeling such force can use AP to act against those doing that forcing.  Forcing stops.  "Basic income" stops.        Jim Bell


  
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From carimachet at gmail.com  Sat Oct 31 16:51:30 2015
From: carimachet at gmail.com (Cari Machet)
Date: Sun, 1 Nov 2015 01:51:30 +0200
Subject: The BlackList
In-Reply-To: <CAJVRA1RNQcEoROR17KpRS=MG5pWqibmVd_AYHakV-Ue5y8JXyQ@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAGRDzQWp6SuJnOcPjLq=h92K2okyeFEZNippvaoL7P8nzEMrRA@mail.gmail.com>
 <604490017.259693.1446314995167.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com>
 <CAJVRA1RNQcEoROR17KpRS=MG5pWqibmVd_AYHakV-Ue5y8JXyQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAGRDzQW1NCZSPrumYRuJ2uDz3R1Wg7YaxbLf8SegWXRZ+dcKYw@mail.gmail.com>

cept i stepped one foot in us for 48 hours and met an 8 year old that has
blood lust and talked of nation protection weapons and fucking mass murder
he dreamed of and the little fucker is literate

there is no one way

monolithic thinking is a gift from capitalist authoritarianism to trap your
mind

try all ways possible and impossible

say: i dont know and lay down your arms against assessing what works and
doesnt before you fucking see thru experience to the end of the test ...
years sometimes centuries ahead is the end but ask your fucking gut not
your head as body is too smart

On Sun, Nov 1, 2015 at 1:44 AM, coderman <coderman at gmail.com> wrote:

> On 10/31/15, jim bell <jdb10987 at yahoo.com> wrote:
> > ...
> >     I also solved David Friedman's "Hard problem", see his book, "The
> > Machinery of Freedom",  the previously-assumed difficulty or
> impossibility
> > of providing for the defense of a fully libertarian or anarchistic
> society.
>
>
> i'd support AP with a basic income in place. otherwise, the few
> outliers could out leverage even the most widely prevalent crowd
> dispositions...
>
> basic income + assassination politics == awesome future!**
>
> [ **this conjecture remains to be proven... ]
>
>
> ---
>
>
> as an alternative vision, consider a world of humans sufficiently
> educated and opportunity rich as to view violence anathema to global
> maxima.
>
> this, a much better solution to brute force.
>
>
> best regards,
>



-- 
Cari Machet
NYC 646-436-7795
carimachet at gmail.com
AIM carismachet
Syria +963-099 277 3243
Amman +962 077 636 9407
Berlin +49 152 11779219
Reykjavik +354 894 8650
Twitter: @carimachet <https://twitter.com/carimachet>

7035 690E 5E47 41D4 B0E5 B3D1 AF90 49D6 BE09 2187

Ruh-roh, this is now necessary: This email is intended only for the
addressee(s) and may contain confidential information. If you are not the
intended recipient, you are hereby notified that any use of this
information, dissemination, distribution, or copying of this email without
permission is strictly prohibited.
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From jdb10987 at yahoo.com  Sat Oct 31 19:03:49 2015
From: jdb10987 at yahoo.com (jim bell)
Date: Sun, 1 Nov 2015 02:03:49 +0000 (UTC)
Subject: The BlackList
In-Reply-To: <56355F42.6010803@riseup.net>
References: <56355F42.6010803@riseup.net>
Message-ID: <1037202149.356848.1446343429986.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com>

  From: Mirimir <mirimir at riseup.net>
On 10/31/2015 05:44 PM, coderman wrote:
>> On 10/31/15, jim bell <jdb10987 at yahoo.com> wrote:
>>> ...
>>>    I also solved David Friedman's "Hard problem", see his book, "The
>>> Machinery of Freedom",  the previously-assumed difficulty or impossibility
>>> of providing for the defense of a fully libertarian or anarchistic society.
>> 
>> 
>> i'd support AP with a basic income in place. otherwise, the few
>> outliers could out leverage even the most widely prevalent crowd
>> dispositions...
> 
>> basic income + assassination politics == awesome future!**
> 
>> [ **this conjecture remains to be proven... ]

>Well, back in the day, I thought AP way cool. But some years later, more
>conscious of increasing concentration of wealth, I doubt that it would>improve on status quo.
Are you assuming that "concentration of wealth" ISN'T a PRODUCT of government?  I believe AP will shrink or most likely eliminate government, certainly as we know it.  Do you know this wouldn't fix the "concentration of wealth" problem?  And what's wrong with "concentration of wealth" if it occurs as a product only of non-aggression?  (Like some capitalist offering a better product, for a lower price.)
>. Sure, maybe crowd-funding would take down some
assholes. But serious assholes are seriously hard to kill.
If they are truly "serious assholes" then they will piss off large numbers of people.  That means many people will be donating to see them stop it.  More people donating means a smaller donation per person will be sufficient.

> Also, itwould provide another mechanism for governments to covertly kill their>enemies.
In order for governments to kill their enemies, they first must know who their enemies are.  Merely by remaining silent, for awhile, a person can conceal himself as an "enemy" of governments.  They can use AP to get rid of those governments, silently.

>I'm reminded of Kim's Shit Slaughter Squad in Burroughs' _Place of Dead>Roads_ about killing the assholes.
Never heard of it.
               Jim Bell




  
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From jdb10987 at yahoo.com  Sat Oct 31 19:09:00 2015
From: jdb10987 at yahoo.com (jim bell)
Date: Sun, 1 Nov 2015 02:09:00 +0000 (UTC)
Subject: The BlackList
In-Reply-To: <CAGRDzQX7tGxG9HN7AdPmHFDP1GWb4Cz9kSkJuOPAHAPQv6i7eA@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAGRDzQX7tGxG9HN7AdPmHFDP1GWb4Cz9kSkJuOPAHAPQv6i7eA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <954733262.359665.1446343740937.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com>

  From: Cari Machet <carimachet at gmail.com>
incredible brain functionality and the basis of the justice system >>>>> death penalty supporters state it as deterrent
your idea solves that 
i will try to find that book ... not on amazon so thanks
The book, "The Machinery of Freedom", was published in its third edition in 2014.  First edition was 1971; second was 1989.              Jim Bell  
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From grarpamp at gmail.com  Sat Oct 31 23:19:30 2015
From: grarpamp at gmail.com (grarpamp)
Date: Sun, 1 Nov 2015 02:19:30 -0400
Subject: Bitcoin Halloween... A Dangerous Idea... They're Terrified We'll
 Use It
In-Reply-To: <CAJVRA1SWqiexxXuoOD1B9+gPs+0d=QsJyNT5mnquW+51Lo7MvQ@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAJVRA1Qq7U_tn-KyvacFj3EEhu_omeht+TFhxjBEv3qiFGeUWQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <1702754326.357522.1446347780724.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com>
 <CAJVRA1SWqiexxXuoOD1B9+gPs+0d=QsJyNT5mnquW+51Lo7MvQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAD2Ti293=RMPqSXLfMMiKugzh=Nb-626njL95UDOSpRCnYTGew@mail.gmail.com>

On Sat, Oct 31, 2015 at 11:24 PM, coderman <coderman at gmail.com> wrote:
> "Fuck! Disappointed to learn that Tor Messenger doesn't include
> logging of chats. I thought we'd learned…"

It's open source, a few lines of code will solve that.
Feeling sorry for the people who will choose to use it
believing it's not loggable and thus end up being compromised.
Tor should not allow that belief.




From grarpamp at gmail.com  Sat Oct 31 23:41:24 2015
From: grarpamp at gmail.com (grarpamp)
Date: Sun, 1 Nov 2015 02:41:24 -0400
Subject: Bitcoin Halloween... A Dangerous Idea... They're Terrified We'll
 Use It
In-Reply-To: <1702754326.357522.1446347780724.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com>
References: <CAJVRA1Qq7U_tn-KyvacFj3EEhu_omeht+TFhxjBEv3qiFGeUWQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <1702754326.357522.1446347780724.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <CAD2Ti2-r9KgEYqk4DQm828a16ZK5Ub5GX2USsv1ppVSKbnkLrw@mail.gmail.com>

On Sat, Oct 31, 2015 at 11:16 PM, jim bell <jdb10987 at yahoo.com> wrote:
> Generally, I'm not interested in "upgrading" anything.  I just want things
> to WORK. Should I have been able to access the site using my browser?

Onions should never resolve, so the answer is no. However if you
wanted to access it or any other onions people talk about, the Tor
Browser Bundle would probably be the simplest standalone option.

http://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc7686
https://www.torproject.org/projects/torbrowser.html.en




From jdb10987 at yahoo.com  Sat Oct 31 19:51:00 2015
From: jdb10987 at yahoo.com (jim bell)
Date: Sun, 1 Nov 2015 02:51:00 +0000 (UTC)
Subject: The BlackList
In-Reply-To: <563552F7.7000103@openmailbox.org>
References: <563552F7.7000103@openmailbox.org>
Message-ID: <610880110.330106.1446346260872.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com>

  From: intelemetry <intelemetry at openmailbox.org>
> From: Cari Machet <carimachet at gmail.com> To: coderman
> <coderman at gmail.com> Cc: cpunks <cypherpunks at cpunks.org>; jim bell
> <jdb10987 at yahoo.com> Sent: Friday, October 30, 2015 8:03 PM 
> Subject: Re: The Black List

>>  But I approached the problem
>> differently:  I saw that very few people would want to pay, say,
> >$10,000 to buy someone else's death.  But I immediately also saw
>>that 10,000 people might want to pay $1 each for that outcome.
>>That amounts to a crowdsourced decision, with its accompanying
>> advantages and benefits.  And I also saw that such a functioning
>> system would deter virtually everything which we call wrong in
>> today's society.  Anybody who is trying to argue against an AP-type
>> system is inherently attempting to defend the hugely flawed status
>> quo, even if they don't realize that. I also solved David
>>Friedman's "Hard problem", see his book, "The Machinery of
>> Freedom",  the previously-assumed difficulty or impossibility of
>> providing for the defense of a fully libertarian or anarchistic
>> society.  Perhaps my big advantage was that I didn't know
>> Friedman's "Hard Problem" even existed, at least under that label,
>> until long after I'd already solved it.

>Claiming that an assassination market solves the defense problem in
>Friedman's utilitarian and general anarchocapitalism is very bold.
>You have a betting pool for killing people.>You don't have any sort of collection of funds that protect a society
>from something like everyday crime, you've merely got a hit market.
To the extent that crime presents a problem that needs to be solved, there is no reason that private organization can't exist to detect crime, and then prove it to an excellent standard.  Those who commit crimecan be presented with a choice:  make your victim whole, and/or accept preventive confinement, or earn a bounty on an AP-type system.  
Your idea is effectively crowdsourcing, which in many ways could be
very useful for Friedman's hard problem. However, while remaining
purely voluntary in nature, what differentiates your assassination
market from:

    - taxes (compulsory collection of small amounts from many)
Taxes are, as you pointed out, compulsory.  Donating to an AP-type system won't be compulsory.  But potential criminals won't know who is donating, andwho is not donating.  And it will probably not matter:  Most people, out of a sense of self-protection, will donate to such crime-prevention and detection funds,because they will amount to a deterrent against all criminals. 
    - hits (a few wealthy individuals take out a contract)


Moreover, you still are facing the 'free-rider' problem, where, "if
everybody else in my community payed a dollar to kill this guy, why
should I have to do so, it is only -1 dollar.
I don't think 'free riders' will be much of a problem.  For one thing, I think the system (AP) will be vastly more efficient than the convention crimeprotection system.  (in the same way that military defense could be 100xcheaper.



>I am neither trying to discredit nor insult your ideas; just curious
>if you could expound upon how an assassination market fits into
>defense in a free society.

>This video might help set the context:

>https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V0_Jd_MzGCw
>'The Market for Security | Robert P. Murphy '
>- - Intelemetry
I hope that someday, in the future, technology will advance to the point where transcripts to 55-minute videos can be automatically generated.  I can alreadysee that Murphy speaks rapidly, but I could easily read the transcript 10x as fast as he can speak it.  By pointing to that video, you are effectively asking me to employ 55 minutes of my life on something which you say will merely "set the context".
Murphy and his business partner, Robert Vroman, engaged in a public
 three-part debate about AP.  Vroman wote two, Murphy wrote one. Bob Vroman  http://www.greenspun.com/bboard/q-and-a-fetch-msg.tcl?msg_id=009ape    ,    http://www.mail-archive.com/cypherpunks-moderated at minder.net/msg02068.html     and  of Bob Murphy,  www.anti-state.com/murphy/murphy17.html   (although the Murphy essay might not be available, except as an archive on the Wayback Machine.) as well as by R.  Sukumaran   http://www.idsa.in/strategicanalysis/CryptologyDigitalAssassinationandtheTerrorismFuturesMarket_rsukumaran_0404.html. 
Further, consider

 https://github.com/isislovecruft/patternsinthevoid/blob/master/content/anarchism/game-theory-anarchism-ii-how-information-can-smash-the-state.md
https://c4ss.org/content/1157

series -- anti-state.com


  
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From grarpamp at gmail.com  Sat Oct 31 23:52:03 2015
From: grarpamp at gmail.com (grarpamp)
Date: Sun, 1 Nov 2015 02:52:03 -0400
Subject: Bitcoin Halloween... A Dangerous Idea... They're Terrified We'll
 Use It
In-Reply-To: <CAJVRA1SVG4tdQ=v-763rqKhQpaHix_jYV2JwRh_5p8PojyFtVA@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAD2Ti2-9KwURzTr9KjQLvP2VbhV+rOb-j7wGVw7Vqmwe-1LUnA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAJVRA1SVG4tdQ=v-763rqKhQpaHix_jYV2JwRh_5p8PojyFtVA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAD2Ti29amdmZ+woG5iKZ_KuvcpSyWYa=cLb1Hcu7w3cRTS16eA@mail.gmail.com>

On Sat, Oct 31, 2015 at 7:48 PM, coderman <coderman at gmail.com> wrote:
> https://blockchainbdgpzk.onion/

When bitcoin reaches $9000 in a few years, you, Sir,
shall be repaid, and terror shall be struck with the rest :)




From jdb10987 at yahoo.com  Sat Oct 31 20:04:40 2015
From: jdb10987 at yahoo.com (jim bell)
Date: Sun, 1 Nov 2015 03:04:40 +0000 (UTC)
Subject: The BlackList:  Murphy's lame reply
In-Reply-To: <610880110.330106.1446346260872.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com>
References: <563552F7.7000103@openmailbox.org>
 <610880110.330106.1446346260872.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <660398518.377056.1446347080196.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com>


      From: jim bell <jdb10987 at yahoo.com>
 To: intelemetry <intelemetry at openmailbox.org>; "cypherpunks at cpunks.org" <cypherpunks at cpunks.org> 




Murphy and his business partner, Robert Vroman, engaged in a public
 three-part debate about AP.  Vroman wote two, Murphy wrote one. Bob Vroman  http://www.greenspun.com/bboard/q-and-a-fetch-msg.tcl?msg_id=009ape    ,    http://www.mail-archive.com/cypherpunks-moderated at minder.net/msg02068.html     and  of Bob Murphy,  www.anti-state.com/murphy/murphy17.html   (although the Murphy essay might not be available, except as an archive on the Wayback Machine.) 
Here is Murphy's lame reply on the Wayback machine:  https://web.archive.org/web/20060208094246/http://www.anti-state.com/murphy/murphy17.html


as well as by R.  Sukumaran   http://www.idsa.in/strategicanalysis/CryptologyDigitalAssassinationandtheTerrorismFuturesMarket_rsukumaran_0404.html. 
Further, consider

 https://github.com/isislovecruft/patternsinthevoid/blob/master/content/anarchism/game-theory-anarchism-ii-how-information-can-smash-the-state.md
https://c4ss.org/content/1157

series -- anti-state.com


   

  
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From jdb10987 at yahoo.com  Sat Oct 31 20:16:20 2015
From: jdb10987 at yahoo.com (jim bell)
Date: Sun, 1 Nov 2015 03:16:20 +0000 (UTC)
Subject: Bitcoin Halloween... A Dangerous Idea... They're Terrified
 We'll Use It
In-Reply-To: <CAJVRA1Qq7U_tn-KyvacFj3EEhu_omeht+TFhxjBEv3qiFGeUWQ@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAJVRA1Qq7U_tn-KyvacFj3EEhu_omeht+TFhxjBEv3qiFGeUWQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <1702754326.357522.1446347780724.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com>

  From: coderman <coderman at gmail.com>
On 10/31/15, jim bell <jdb10987 at yahoo.com> wrote:

>>https://blockchainbdgpzk.onion/tx/6d0ffd7e5147232507054f70f4cea17b908c7f9826d81950f69c118d137b6fd7
> Response:  "This Webpage is not available."
>Hey Jim,
>you can upgrade your "Web Experience (TM)" via Tor Browser:
>  https://www.torproject.org/download/download-easy.html.en

Generally, I'm not interested in "upgrading" anything.  I just want things to WORK.  Should I have been able to access the site using my browser?       Jim Bell
  
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From jdb10987 at yahoo.com  Sat Oct 31 20:28:36 2015
From: jdb10987 at yahoo.com (jim bell)
Date: Sun, 1 Nov 2015 03:28:36 +0000 (UTC)
Subject: The BlackList: Murphy's lame reply
In-Reply-To: <CAJVRA1QFLE5oGrr=Kje565iEQ4EMGw0N5URrLf5g7HWRf+WENA@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAJVRA1QFLE5oGrr=Kje565iEQ4EMGw0N5URrLf5g7HWRf+WENA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <1604635709.341666.1446348516179.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com>

  From: coderman <coderman at gmail.com>
On 10/31/15, jim bell <jdb10987 at yahoo.com> wrote:



> ... Further, consider
>  https://github.com/isislovecruft/patternsinthevoid/blob/master/content/anarchism/game-theory-anarchism-ii-how-information-can-smash-the-state.md
>"Therefore, it is statistically shown that the general human
>population is incapable of rational thought for more than three
>successive iterations."
>this is the gist of the crux, is it not?
>AP brings brutal math to bear. effective, yes. and cruel.
>rational anarchy an ideal without brutish levers of any sort, yet how
>to reach it?
Uh, it's hard to understand what you are saying.           Jim Bell

  
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From juan.g71 at gmail.com  Sat Oct 31 23:59:56 2015
From: juan.g71 at gmail.com (Juan)
Date: Sun, 1 Nov 2015 03:59:56 -0300
Subject: The BlackList
In-Reply-To: <1618172215.394932.1446357637717.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com>
References: <563552F7.7000103@openmailbox.org>
 <1618172215.394932.1446357637717.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <5635b6e3.0e138c0a.148ca.ffffc02f@mx.google.com>




	This might have been already answered...somewhere...so excuse
	my lazyness for not looking it up.


	The AP thing takes a few things for granted. One of the things
	taken for granted seems to be that, if some kind of prize is
	put on A's head, somebody is going to kill A to collect the
	prize. 

	Now, that *might* work for relatively easy targets. Say,
	ordinary cops and soldiers. But what if some more important
	targets, say a couple of pentagon's 'generals' end up on the
	list? Who's going to finish them off? And what is the contractor
	going to do with his money once the job is done? Deposit it on a
	 numbered account in switzerland? Buy an island? Donate it
	to charity? Or? 






From jdb10987 at yahoo.com  Sat Oct 31 21:08:27 2015
From: jdb10987 at yahoo.com (jim bell)
Date: Sun, 1 Nov 2015 04:08:27 +0000 (UTC)
Subject: The BlackList: Murphy's lame reply
In-Reply-To: <CAJVRA1RvQxoMR4R10RhBZ_XK-2xet2kzh_HWWVoZ1hGguGFQNw@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAJVRA1RvQxoMR4R10RhBZ_XK-2xet2kzh_HWWVoZ1hGguGFQNw@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <858597672.375547.1446350907320.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com>

From: coderman <coderman at gmail.com>

   


On 10/31/15, jim bell <jdb10987 at yahoo.com> wrote:
> ...
> Uh, it's hard to understand what you are saying.
>to be more clear:
>- Assasination politics: easy to compute, easy to apply, globally inefficient.
But you don't explain why it's "inefficient".  You only allege it.


>- Rational anarchy: difficult to compute, difficult to apply, globally optimal.
What is "rational anarchy"?  On Google-search, I see a reference to Heinlein's "The Moon is  a harsh mistress".  I read that a decade ago, but I don't connect what you are saying with it.  But again, you don't explain why it's "globally optimal".For that matter, you haven't explained WHAT "globally optimal" means.  You seem to be assuming a lot today.Further, while it's hard to understand, "globally optimal" sounds like it mightassume a compromise, in contrast to equality.    Why should I accept something which you call "globally optimal" if someting else is better for ME, personally?
>just because AP is better that Status Quo, does not mean that AP is>the ideal to strive toward.
Unfortunately, that sounds like a truism.  If you agree that AP is better than the Status Quo, then unless you (or somebody else) can establish somethingis better than AP, you don't establish that AP shouldn't be the goal, at least temporarily.



  
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From jdb10987 at yahoo.com  Sat Oct 31 21:12:31 2015
From: jdb10987 at yahoo.com (jim bell)
Date: Sun, 1 Nov 2015 04:12:31 +0000 (UTC)
Subject: Multnomah County Common Law Court
In-Reply-To: <CAJVRA1Si7xTy5xkeociSpEUKmNYUHLDo2tjqJ+NiFEWKkPU8TA@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAJVRA1Si7xTy5xkeociSpEUKmNYUHLDo2tjqJ+NiFEWKkPU8TA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <2109896443.385445.1446351151607.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com>

  From: coderman <coderman at gmail.com>
hey Jim,
Multnomah County Common Law Court sounds awesome. are there details
about this effort anywhere online?
Other than using Google search, for that or the acryonum (MCCLC), I don't know anything better.            Jim Bell
(ps. my old email addresses are no longer active.)

best regards,
  [ from Washington County :]


  
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From jdb10987 at yahoo.com  Sat Oct 31 22:14:12 2015
From: jdb10987 at yahoo.com (jim bell)
Date: Sun, 1 Nov 2015 05:14:12 +0000 (UTC)
Subject: The BlackList: Murphy's lame reply
In-Reply-To: <CAJVRA1R-bVNjNFv70s+W3anKJVKgSRC2RskeojsHPaT2NxCKUA@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAJVRA1R-bVNjNFv70s+W3anKJVKgSRC2RskeojsHPaT2NxCKUA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <54829360.386325.1446354852647.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com>

From: coderman <coderman at gmail.com>
On 10/31/15, jim bell <jdb10987 at yahoo.com> wrote:
>> ... But you don't explain why it's "inefficient".  You only allege it.

>fair enough. my assertion relies on the fact that conflict is
>destructive in some manner,
What "conflict"?  In what way "destructive"?  Which "manner"?
>" and cooperation is productive in some manner.
What "cooperation"?  In what way "productive"?  Which "manner"?

>sometimes, you must defeat bad ideas for the good to thrive:
You don't explain how to "defeat bad ideas".  And I am not aware how you must "defeat" a bad idea.  Is there a standard for such "defeat"?

>this is the essence of our age: competition for survival of the fittest.
>yet there is a limit to what competition can achieve.
Doesn't sound like you're saying anything useful.

---

consider that competition can never reach a solution at which full
cooperation will arrive.
I disagree.
> thus, if competition defines our current age,which leads to resource exhaustion,
I disagree with your premise.

>cooperation leads to abundance for all, given sufficient technology,
I disagree with your premise.
>and a better age above our cruel origins.
I disagree with your vague conclusion.

---

this is the great divide:
do we carry on with cruelty?
Who is "we"?
>or do we strive for cooperation?
By whose definition?



>> What is "rational anarchy"?  On Google-search, I see a reference to
>> Heinlein's "The Moon is  a harsh mistress".  I read that a decade ago, but I
>> don't connect what you are saying with it.

>it is an ideal: a state of society in educated awareness and cohesion,
>without centralized authority, working toward a collective best end.
Sounds like a contradiction in terms.  "A collective best end" implies that theinterest of individuals is ignored.  People don't work that way; never have.AP will cause "without centralized authority", but nobody needs to "work towards a collective best end."


> But again, you don't explain why
> it's "globally optimal".For that matter, you haven't explained WHAT
> "globally optimal" means.

>it is globally optimal because there is only cooperation. no
>destruction competition.
I disagree that "competition" causes any undesireable "destruction".  

>by definition, the efforts of the losers are "waste".
I disagree.  Simple example:  Communist 'logic' would tell us that we would only need 3-5 kinds of cell phones or cordless phones.  It certainly sounds likehaving the world manufacture 50-100 kinds is wasteful and inefficient.  But the reality is that we get far better products, and selection of products, even in the face of this seeming "waste".  Evidently, your assumptions are quite false.


>  You seem to be assuming a lot today.Further,
> while it's hard to understand, "globally optimal" sounds like it might assume
> a compromise, in contrast to equality.    Why should I accept
> something which you call "globally optimal" if someting else is better for
> ME, personally?

bingo. the crux!

>a globally cooperative society would chose this, because it is best
>for all, which is best for you.
Wacky 'logic'.  
> (and not in a "I'm going to kill you, to save humanity" triviality sense.)
Wacky 'logic'.

>we're getting at the meat of the argument, which is a system and
>technology and society which leverages technology in a productive
>manner - rational anarchy - instead of a destructive manner - AP
>selective killing.
Wacky 'logic'.


>> Unfortunately, that sounds like a truism.  If you agree that AP is better
>> than the Status Quo, then unless you (or somebody else) can establish
>> somethingis better than AP, you don't establish that AP shouldn't be the
>> goal, at least temporarily.
>i am aiming for something better.
You haven't found it yet.  Keep trying.  You are just spewing vague ideas.

>i don't expect to convince anyone until the argument is formed. i also
>reserve the right to proclaim that better options exist.
You can "proclaim" anything you like.  That won't make it true, however.

>this is my beef with AP: that we may see it a solution, in near term,
>missing a greener pasture at the distance...
Have you ever heard the saying, "The perfect is the enemy of the good"?  One wayto sabotage the search for 'the good' is to claim that there is 'the perfect' still out theresomewhere.  You seem to be doing that.

               Jim Bell






  
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From jdb10987 at yahoo.com  Sat Oct 31 22:16:07 2015
From: jdb10987 at yahoo.com (jim bell)
Date: Sun, 1 Nov 2015 05:16:07 +0000 (UTC)
Subject: Value of Earth Human Life
In-Reply-To: <CAJVRA1SJRhk3C-kdAc6=8O7pG=c6-53qSmbUi89Oe-jn9qCDPA@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAJVRA1SJRhk3C-kdAc6=8O7pG=c6-53qSmbUi89Oe-jn9qCDPA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <1728049566.361887.1446354967523.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com>

  From: coderman <coderman at gmail.com>
for an AP target?  should there be a "minimum kill price"?
- https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Value_of_life

Simple answer:  No.           Jim Bell


  
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From jdb10987 at yahoo.com  Sat Oct 31 23:00:37 2015
From: jdb10987 at yahoo.com (jim bell)
Date: Sun, 1 Nov 2015 06:00:37 +0000 (UTC)
Subject: The BlackList
In-Reply-To: <563552F7.7000103@openmailbox.org>
References: <563552F7.7000103@openmailbox.org>
Message-ID: <1618172215.394932.1446357637717.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com>

  From: intelemetry <intelemetry at openmailbox.org>

>This video might help set the context:
>https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V0_Jd_MzGCw
>'The Market for Security | Robert P. Murphy '

- - Intelemetry

I will explain to you why selecting Murphy to support any arguments you have is misguided.   Here is a paragraph from his essay, itself a response to his business partner, Robert Vroman, at:  https://web.archive.org/web/20060208094246/http://www.anti-state.com/murphy/murphy17.html   I will first quote the whole paragraph, and then address it inline:
   "Simply put, I don't think Vroman or Bell realize just how nutty and horrible the AP idea seems to the average American. Especially if the government institutes a standing penalty of, say, a mandatory twenty-five years for placing an AP donation, I don't think we will have the millions of small donations that AP requires. The situation would be a prisoner's dilemma: No individual donation of $10 or even $100 is going to make the difference between a target being killed or not, and so there would be no reason for the average person to use AP. The fact that the donations could be made "safely" is not enough; the government would surely institute eavesdropping measures and would punish anyone who even visited AP sites.
My replies inline:
Simply put, I don't think Vroman or Bell realize just how nutty and horrible the AP idea seems to the average American.
I should point out why I view Murphy's comment as being wacky, in itself.  The "average American" is fairly familiar with the deficiencies of the world's status quo.   But he may not be aware that it has been estimated that in the 20th century, about 250 million people DIED, killed by the actions of governments.    http://www.evil.news/2015-10-07-national-governments-murdered-262-million-people-over-the-last-century.html    Does Murphy impllicitly or explicitly say that is somehow "okay"?  I very much doubt he'd say that was acceptable, and he probably couldn't argue much with the numbers themselves.  But suppose those "average Americans" were FIRST fully informed of this fact, even simply as an estimate.  THEN, suppose it was explained to him HOW a functioning AP system wouldn't allow that to happen, if necessary by killing whatever number of government employees were necessary to stop this, the "Democide".   If those "average Americans" were reminded that the death of a government employee is no more unfortunate than the death of ordinary citizens, then wouldn't it be reasonable to conclude that to save 250 million ordinary citizens, it would certainly be acceptable to kill 25 million government employees, and certainly 2.5 million government employees?
The "average American" has been aware, during and since the 1960's, that the citizens of many major governments have been under a nuclear terror.  Now, it seems, we simply accept it as it is a reality.  As shocking as that may see, perhaps it's made more understandable by the fact that there has not seemed to be anything we can do about it.  
Suppose, then, these "average Americans" were told that a functioning AP system would make any nation's holding of nuclear weapons absolutely impossible:  They are in the control of SOMEONE, or maybe hundreds and thousands of someones, and such people can be targeted by AP until those weapons are finally shut down, and dismantled, and permanently rendered safe.  As many government employees could be killed until that occurs.  No limit whatsoever.  
So, where does Bob Murphy get off saying that the "Average American" would find AP "nutty and horrible"?  I say, to the contrary, that a _well-informed_ "average American", informed of what I say AP could accomplish, would find Murphy himself and his arguments "nutty and horrible".  Why should the citizens of the world tolerate the killing of 250 million more people by governments, beyond the 20th Century's toll?  Why should the citizens of the world tolerate continuing to be held as nuclear hostages, targets of 2000 nuclear bombs, just to keep a few governments in power?  Clearly, Murphy views the world's citizens' "natural state" to being owned and held hostage by governments, and certainly not the opposite!

                         " Especially if the government institutes a standing penalty of, say, a mandatory twenty-five years for placing an AP donation, I don't think we will have the millions of small donations that AP requires. The situation would be a prisoner's dilemma: No individual donation of $10 or even $100 is going to make the difference between a target being killed or not, and so there would be no reason for the average person to use AP. The fact that the donations could be made "safely" is not enough; the government would surely institute eavesdropping measures and would punish anyone who even visited AP sites."

Murphy, here, is beginning to show his 'inner paranoid'.  "They would never let us do it!!!"Which, is one reasons we MUST do it.   I would say, to the contrary of what he said, that if "they", the governments, don't want us to do something SO MUCH, then that's all the more reason we should disregard those governments' official desires.                    Jim Bell



  
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