From coderman at gmail.com  Sun Nov  1 00:01:58 2015
From: coderman at gmail.com (coderman)
Date: Sun, 1 Nov 2015 00:01:58 -0700
Subject: The BlackList: Murphy's lame reply
In-Reply-To: <54829360.386325.1446354852647.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com>
References: <CAJVRA1R-bVNjNFv70s+W3anKJVKgSRC2RskeojsHPaT2NxCKUA@mail.gmail.com>
 <54829360.386325.1446354852647.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <CAJVRA1RQNT5yYZ-UPND7qXfStoZF46-hVXQ7cPtBWLBAqUP2qw@mail.gmail.com>

On 10/31/15, jim bell <jdb10987 at yahoo.com> wrote:
> ...
> What "conflict"?  In what way "destructive"?

we can pick a resource for discussion. water you drink, perhaps.
 [ and municipal water supply or well on your propery, we can find a
commons to conflict or cooperate over. ]



> You don't explain how to "defeat bad ideas".

a bad idea is considered, and rejected for a better alternative.
[ this necessitates a common ground of discourse, terminology. ]



> consider that competition can never reach a solution at which full
> cooperation will arrive.
> I disagree.

if the only solutions are through conflict in your world view,
 you're right.

nothing left to discuss...




From coderman at gmail.com  Sun Nov  1 00:06:08 2015
From: coderman at gmail.com (coderman)
Date: Sun, 1 Nov 2015 00:06:08 -0700
Subject: The BlackList
In-Reply-To: <5635b6e3.0e138c0a.148ca.ffffc02f@mx.google.com>
References: <563552F7.7000103@openmailbox.org>
 <1618172215.394932.1446357637717.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com>
 <5635b6e3.0e138c0a.148ca.ffffc02f@mx.google.com>
Message-ID: <CAJVRA1TaCAX_oYkHmFEDCj+Evj8C_-_vnOZaVq_f6DD7+J01iA@mail.gmail.com>

On 10/31/15, Juan <juan.g71 at gmail.com> wrote:
> ...
> 	Now, that *might* work for relatively easy targets. Say,
> 	ordinary cops and soldiers. But what if some more important
> 	targets, say a couple of pentagon's 'generals' end up on the
> 	list? Who's going to finish them off?

this is exactly the beauty of AP: when a nation sized crowd gets
pissed, not even the shield of nation state power can protect you!

in other words, APs solution is to ramp the incentive sky high,
 and let nature find a way...




From coderman at gmail.com  Sun Nov  1 00:26:30 2015
From: coderman at gmail.com (coderman)
Date: Sun, 1 Nov 2015 00:26:30 -0700
Subject: Value of Earth Human Life
In-Reply-To: <CAD2Ti2_ULYntQ+cQ=ScyTN72qg4ginkwJurq=idNRhTyExuR_g@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAJVRA1SJRhk3C-kdAc6=8O7pG=c6-53qSmbUi89Oe-jn9qCDPA@mail.gmail.com>
 <1728049566.361887.1446354967523.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com>
 <CAD2Ti2_ULYntQ+cQ=ScyTN72qg4ginkwJurq=idNRhTyExuR_g@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAJVRA1TQ1kzE9UVF7uf8HWf672b0cCtONca3fmThR-Nq8trztw@mail.gmail.com>

On 11/1/15, grarpamp <grarpamp at gmail.com> wrote:
> ...
>> Simple answer:  No.
>
> That would seem to be a service offered by the contractor,
> not by the mark maker.

you might simplify further, and say that ideally this reduces to
transaction costs alone, as lower bound.

in which case, the minimum cost of human life is around 0.0001 BTC, or
about 3 cents.


best regards,




From coderman at gmail.com  Sun Nov  1 00:42:32 2015
From: coderman at gmail.com (coderman)
Date: Sun, 1 Nov 2015 00:42:32 -0700
Subject: The BlackList
In-Reply-To: <5635be08.53528c0a.6a953.ffffc32a@mx.google.com>
References: <563552F7.7000103@openmailbox.org>
 <1618172215.394932.1446357637717.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com>
 <5635b6e3.0e138c0a.148ca.ffffc02f@mx.google.com>
 <CAJVRA1TaCAX_oYkHmFEDCj+Evj8C_-_vnOZaVq_f6DD7+J01iA@mail.gmail.com>
 <5635be08.53528c0a.6a953.ffffc32a@mx.google.com>
Message-ID: <CAJVRA1Tj_0Q9jaLMKXzkgEe5TaQz_K1=X4e6MJkh36k1-06L8w@mail.gmail.com>

On 11/1/15, Juan <juan.g71 at gmail.com> wrote:
> ...
> 	There isn't much proof that 'enough incentives' will get the job
> 	done. You just restated a baseless assertion.

just because we've never had AP does not mean that it won't work.

there are plenty of cases where those with privileged access and
lifetime reputation betray it for roughly millions or less, in USD.

the rest, assuming AP exists, becomes probabilities and patience.




From coderman at gmail.com  Sun Nov  1 01:16:15 2015
From: coderman at gmail.com (coderman)
Date: Sun, 1 Nov 2015 01:16:15 -0700
Subject: The BlackList
In-Reply-To: <5635c7f4.c548370a.33e6a.10f6@mx.google.com>
References: <563552F7.7000103@openmailbox.org>
 <1618172215.394932.1446357637717.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com>
 <5635b6e3.0e138c0a.148ca.ffffc02f@mx.google.com>
 <CAJVRA1TaCAX_oYkHmFEDCj+Evj8C_-_vnOZaVq_f6DD7+J01iA@mail.gmail.com>
 <5635be08.53528c0a.6a953.ffffc32a@mx.google.com>
 <CAJVRA1Tj_0Q9jaLMKXzkgEe5TaQz_K1=X4e6MJkh36k1-06L8w@mail.gmail.com>
 <5635c7f4.c548370a.33e6a.10f6@mx.google.com>
Message-ID: <CAJVRA1StNCiLmupBJ9FvB-j9Sybcv3rDEBLyrTrQzSou5=GfHw@mail.gmail.com>

On 11/1/15, Juan <juan.g71 at gmail.com> wrote:
> ...
> 	It seems (kinda obvious) to me that to get rid of 'high
> 	ranking' targets you need a 'professional' service, agree?

no, this is movie plot thinking.

you need someone with access and opportunity.



> 	You are saying that those targets will be taken down by
> 	'traitors'? That can happen sometimes but I don't think it
> 	would be common.

most traitors are traitors for money, not ideology.


>       Also notice that 'traitors' a la snowden don't
> 	do it for money. And he didn't kill anybody either (and he's no
> 	anarchist anyway)

Snowden is not a typical traitor, as discussed.



> 	Yet you are saying that a 'modern', big, very well
> 	funded government can be overthrown by buying off some of its
> 	members with a few million dollars?

i don't think AP would destroy government - that's a separate question.

i do think AP would successfully murder even the most high profile
targets, though.




From grarpamp at gmail.com  Sun Nov  1 00:12:51 2015
From: grarpamp at gmail.com (grarpamp)
Date: Sun, 1 Nov 2015 03:12:51 -0400
Subject: Value of Earth Human Life
In-Reply-To: <1728049566.361887.1446354967523.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com>
References: <CAJVRA1SJRhk3C-kdAc6=8O7pG=c6-53qSmbUi89Oe-jn9qCDPA@mail.gmail.com>
 <1728049566.361887.1446354967523.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <CAD2Ti2_ULYntQ+cQ=ScyTN72qg4ginkwJurq=idNRhTyExuR_g@mail.gmail.com>

On Sun, Nov 1, 2015 at 1:16 AM, jim bell <jdb10987 at yahoo.com> wrote:
> From: coderman <coderman at gmail.com>
> for an AP target?  should there be a "minimum kill price"?
> - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Value_of_life
> Simple answer:  No.

That would seem to be a service offered by the contractor,
not by the mark maker. Though a various classes of
historical minimums may settle out of the marketplace based
on things like ease of access to particular levels of marks,
risk factors to fulfillment of any particular task, contractor
density and regional differences, etc. For any completed
tasks that were scrutinizable by the public, the market
would certainly keep track of those metrics, even if only
as a tool for makers to properly allocate their budget.




From grarpamp at gmail.com  Sun Nov  1 00:54:51 2015
From: grarpamp at gmail.com (grarpamp)
Date: Sun, 1 Nov 2015 03:54:51 -0400
Subject: Value of Earth Human Life
In-Reply-To: <CAJVRA1TQ1kzE9UVF7uf8HWf672b0cCtONca3fmThR-Nq8trztw@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAJVRA1SJRhk3C-kdAc6=8O7pG=c6-53qSmbUi89Oe-jn9qCDPA@mail.gmail.com>
 <1728049566.361887.1446354967523.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com>
 <CAD2Ti2_ULYntQ+cQ=ScyTN72qg4ginkwJurq=idNRhTyExuR_g@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAJVRA1TQ1kzE9UVF7uf8HWf672b0cCtONca3fmThR-Nq8trztw@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAD2Ti2_BYEkPis9yGqhMUC-NNVAueAWCvm1v7awDTW8sLRv+ew@mail.gmail.com>

On Sun, Nov 1, 2015 at 3:26 AM, coderman <coderman at gmail.com> wrote:
> you might simplify further, and say that ideally this reduces to
> transaction costs alone, as lower bound.

Some contractors might work for free, they might even
pay to be fed juicy marks... establishing a rep, grandstanding,
love of the hobby, whatever.

> about 3 cents.

That might be true too on a net forward
contribution [to something new] scale.




From juan.g71 at gmail.com  Sun Nov  1 00:30:25 2015
From: juan.g71 at gmail.com (Juan)
Date: Sun, 1 Nov 2015 04:30:25 -0300
Subject: The BlackList
In-Reply-To: <CAJVRA1TaCAX_oYkHmFEDCj+Evj8C_-_vnOZaVq_f6DD7+J01iA@mail.gmail.com>
References: <563552F7.7000103@openmailbox.org>
 <1618172215.394932.1446357637717.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com>
 <5635b6e3.0e138c0a.148ca.ffffc02f@mx.google.com>
 <CAJVRA1TaCAX_oYkHmFEDCj+Evj8C_-_vnOZaVq_f6DD7+J01iA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <5635be08.53528c0a.6a953.ffffc32a@mx.google.com>

On Sun, 1 Nov 2015 00:06:08 -0700
coderman <coderman at gmail.com> wrote:

> On 10/31/15, Juan <juan.g71 at gmail.com> wrote:
> > ...
> > 	Now, that *might* work for relatively easy targets. Say,
> > 	ordinary cops and soldiers. But what if some more important
> > 	targets, say a couple of pentagon's 'generals' end up on the
> > 	list? Who's going to finish them off?
> 
> this is exactly the beauty of AP: when a nation sized crowd gets
> pissed, not even the shield of nation state power can protect you!
> 
> in other words, APs solution is to ramp the incentive sky high,
>  and let nature find a way...

	
	Yes, you just confirmed what I consider a correct guess on
	my part.

	There isn't much proof that 'enough incentives' will get the job
	done. You just restated a baseless assertion. 


	"ramp the incentive sky high" 
	
	I call bullshit. 
























From juan.g71 at gmail.com  Sun Nov  1 01:12:45 2015
From: juan.g71 at gmail.com (Juan)
Date: Sun, 1 Nov 2015 05:12:45 -0300
Subject: The BlackList
In-Reply-To: <CAJVRA1Tj_0Q9jaLMKXzkgEe5TaQz_K1=X4e6MJkh36k1-06L8w@mail.gmail.com>
References: <563552F7.7000103@openmailbox.org>
 <1618172215.394932.1446357637717.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com>
 <5635b6e3.0e138c0a.148ca.ffffc02f@mx.google.com>
 <CAJVRA1TaCAX_oYkHmFEDCj+Evj8C_-_vnOZaVq_f6DD7+J01iA@mail.gmail.com>
 <5635be08.53528c0a.6a953.ffffc32a@mx.google.com>
 <CAJVRA1Tj_0Q9jaLMKXzkgEe5TaQz_K1=X4e6MJkh36k1-06L8w@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <5635c7f4.c548370a.33e6a.10f6@mx.google.com>

On Sun, 1 Nov 2015 00:42:32 -0700
coderman <coderman at gmail.com> wrote:

> On 11/1/15, Juan <juan.g71 at gmail.com> wrote:
> > ...
> > 	There isn't much proof that 'enough incentives' will get
> > the job done. You just restated a baseless assertion.
> 
> just because we've never had AP does not mean that it won't work.

	Sure. But I never said "It won't work because it's new". I'm
	just asking for more details. 

> 
> there are plenty of cases where those with privileged access and
> lifetime reputation betray it for roughly millions or less, in USD.


	It seems (kinda obvious) to me that to get rid of 'high
	ranking' targets you need a 'professional' service, agree? 

	You are saying that those targets will be taken down by
	'traitors'? That can happen sometimes but I don't think it
	would be common. Also notice that 'traitors' a la snowden don't
	do it for money. And he didn't kill anybody either (and he's no
	anarchist anyway)


	Yet you are saying that a 'modern', big, very well
	funded government can be overthrown by buying off some of its
	members with a few million dollars? 


> 
> the rest, assuming AP exists, becomes probabilities and patience.

	






From jdb10987 at yahoo.com  Sun Nov  1 01:07:57 2015
From: jdb10987 at yahoo.com (jim bell)
Date: Sun, 1 Nov 2015 08:07:57 +0000 (UTC)
Subject: Bitcoin Halloween... A Dangerous Idea... They're Terrified
 We'll Use It
In-Reply-To: <CAD2Ti2-r9KgEYqk4DQm828a16ZK5Ub5GX2USsv1ppVSKbnkLrw@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAD2Ti2-r9KgEYqk4DQm828a16ZK5Ub5GX2USsv1ppVSKbnkLrw@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <1471381325.408517.1446365277696.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com>


      From: grarpamp <grarpamp at gmail.com>
 To: "cypherpunks at cpunks.org" <cypherpunks at cpunks.org> 
 Sent: Saturday, October 31, 2015 11:41 PM
 Subject: Re: Bitcoin Halloween... A Dangerous Idea... They're Terrified We'll Use It
   
On Sat, Oct 31, 2015 at 11:16 PM, jim bell <jdb10987 at yahoo.com> wrote:


> Generally, I'm not interested in "upgrading" anything.  I just want things
> to WORK. Should I have been able to access the site using my browser?

Onions should never resolve, so the answer is no. 
I wish I understood what you just said.
      Jim Bell
  
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From jdb10987 at yahoo.com  Sun Nov  1 01:12:00 2015
From: jdb10987 at yahoo.com (jim bell)
Date: Sun, 1 Nov 2015 08:12:00 +0000 (UTC)
Subject: The BlackList
In-Reply-To: <5635b6e3.0e138c0a.148ca.ffffc02f@mx.google.com>
References: <5635b6e3.0e138c0a.148ca.ffffc02f@mx.google.com>
Message-ID: <935312752.388847.1446365520386.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com>

  From: Juan <juan.g71 at gmail.com>
>    The AP thing takes a few things for granted. One of the things
 >   taken for granted seems to be that, if some kind of prize is
 >   put on A's head, somebody is going to kill A to collect the
>    prize. 
That is certainly a possibility.

>    Now, that *might* work for relatively easy targets. Say,
 >   ordinary cops and soldiers. But what if some more important
 >   targets, say a couple of pentagon's 'generals' end up on the
 >   list? Who's going to finish them off?
Even most of the very important targets are probably not very well protected, 24 hours per day.  But if they are inaccessible, their employees could be targeted as well.  And their employees will have access to them.
> And what is the contractor
>    going to do with his money once the job is done? Deposit it on a
>     numbered account in switzerland? Buy an island? Donate it
>    to charity? Or?
Whatever he wants to do with it!   It's his money, of course.           Jim Bell
  







  
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From oshwm at openmailbox.org  Sun Nov  1 01:20:28 2015
From: oshwm at openmailbox.org (oshwm)
Date: Sun, 01 Nov 2015 09:20:28 +0000
Subject: Bitcoin Halloween... A Dangerous Idea... They're Terrified We'll
 Use It
In-Reply-To: <1471381325.408517.1446365277696.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com>
References: <CAD2Ti2-r9KgEYqk4DQm828a16ZK5Ub5GX2USsv1ppVSKbnkLrw@mail.gmail.com>
 <1471381325.408517.1446365277696.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <5635D95C.4030303@openmailbox.org>



On 01/11/15 08:07, jim bell wrote:
> 
>       From: grarpamp <grarpamp at gmail.com>
>  To: "cypherpunks at cpunks.org" <cypherpunks at cpunks.org> 
>  Sent: Saturday, October 31, 2015 11:41 PM
>  Subject: Re: Bitcoin Halloween... A Dangerous Idea... They're Terrified We'll Use It
>    
> On Sat, Oct 31, 2015 at 11:16 PM, jim bell <jdb10987 at yahoo.com> wrote:
> 
> 
>> Generally, I'm not interested in "upgrading" anything.  I just want things
>> to WORK. Should I have been able to access the site using my browser?
> 
> Onions should never resolve, so the answer is no. 
> I wish I understood what you just said.
>       Jim Bell
>   

Please accept my apologies if I'm teaching granny to suck eggs, being
trolled, shit like that but I'm going to assume minimal knowledge of this...

Basically, you have a bunch of tools designed to hide your
communications when using the internet.

This particular set of tools has at it's core, The Onion Router (Tor)
which passes your internet communications via many different proxies
using multiple layers of encryption so that none of the proxies in the
middle of this chain can identify the source and destination of the
connection.

Tor can be used to hide your communications when looking at normal
websites such as www.cryptome.com but this carries a risk.
Any of the proxies can be monitored and using traffic correlation you
can be identified by comparing the communications entering Tor and
exiting Tor (to reach the website).

To avoid this, you can use Tor to only access Hidden web servers so that
your traffic never leaves the Tor network, making the traffic
correlation techniques much harder to do.

These hidden web servers are only visible in the Tor network and their
web addresses end in .onion

Hence, people referring to onions :)

So, if you wish to view the content on the hidden servers like the one
coderman linked to then you need access to the Tor network.

The Tor project make a modified version of the Firefox web browser
available for download and install that gives a simple way to access Tor
without having to do much messing about with your computer.
It also, has a modified configuration to reduce the amount of private
information you leak when using it.

Information from the horses mouth:
https://www.torproject.org/about/overview.html.en

Download the Tor Browser:
https://www.torproject.org/download/download.html.en

The quality of information available at the Tor link will far surpass
what I have just written and you should assume small but possibly
devastating inaccuracies in my description above :)

Sorry for the long post but I couldn't think of a quick way of writing
it if you haven't come across Tor before.

There are also other similar systems: i2p, freenet but Tor seems to be
the most popular.

Something to weigh up though is that Tor was created by the US Navy and
the project still receives US Government funding so you should probably
bear this in mind when using it although reading more information on the
Tor Project's website may or may not reduce feelings of discomfort that
come from knowing where the funding comes from.

Cheers,
oshwm

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From jm at porup.com  Sun Nov  1 06:21:18 2015
From: jm at porup.com (J.M. Porup)
Date: Sun, 1 Nov 2015 09:21:18 -0500
Subject: The United States of Air (novel) free ebook
In-Reply-To: <CANFTA08bjQimHDM9wDa0-P-Zffn25aBh0zaTFF_TxdHrinEmrw@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CANFTA08bjQimHDM9wDa0-P-Zffn25aBh0zaTFF_TxdHrinEmrw@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <20151101142117.GC1760@fedora-21-dvm>

The United States of Air is a satire that makes fun of mass
surveillance and the NSA.

CC-licensed, so free to share. Free audiobook too.

XHTML on GitHub, run it through calibre for an epub or mobi:
https://github.com/toholdaquill/united-states-of-air

free audiobook here:
http://podiobooks.com/title/the-united-states-of-air-a-satire/


...

The National Sewer Agency is spying on people's toilets, looking for
food terrorists...

Food Enforcement Agent Jason Frolick believes in America. He believes in
eating air. He struggles to get the food monkey off his back. As part of
the Global War on Fat, his job is to put food terrorists in Fat Camp.

When a pizza dealer gets whacked in the park across the street from the
Thin House, the Prophet Jones himself asks Frolick to investigate. For
the first time ever, Frolick solves a murderbut what he finds out shakes
his faith.

Will he ever be able to eat air again?




From jdb10987 at yahoo.com  Sun Nov  1 01:25:12 2015
From: jdb10987 at yahoo.com (jim bell)
Date: Sun, 1 Nov 2015 09:25:12 +0000 (UTC)
Subject: Value of Earth Human Life
In-Reply-To: <CAD2Ti2_BYEkPis9yGqhMUC-NNVAueAWCvm1v7awDTW8sLRv+ew@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAD2Ti2_BYEkPis9yGqhMUC-NNVAueAWCvm1v7awDTW8sLRv+ew@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <2016477829.396270.1446369912828.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com>



  From: grarpamp <grarpamp at gmail.com>

On Sun, Nov 1, 2015 at 3:26 AM, coderman <coderman at gmail.com> wrote:
>> you might simplify further, and say that ideally this reduces to
>> transaction costs alone, as lower bound.

>Some contractors might work for free, they might even
>pay to be fed juicy marks... establishing a rep, grandstanding,
>love of the hobby, whatever.
While the first few collected rewards would probably be in the tens of thousands of dollars range, after a few hundred are collected I think the price could easily drop to the low thousands.  One reason is that once it is clear that government has no effective defense, it will also be clear that soon enough, the government(s) will surely fall.  The main reason a given "special bettor" might hesitate to act is the possibility that he will be stuck in prison, if identified and caught.   But the entire process could be over in just a few months, with the government(s) yelling, "We surrender!".  One condition for that surrender will certainly be the release of all the hostages.  

Another tactic which could be used to strengthen the resolve of potential AP winners is to arrange the bounty system so a portion of all bets also will be used to target anybody who is part of the prosecution of any caught persons, or for that matter anyone who kills or even arrests them:  The judges, prosecutors, and other court staff, as well as hostile witnesses.  Even unsuccessful defense attorneys:  The possible threat of death would provide an automatic appeal issue.  What about a standing publicly-offered reward for $10,000 for any juror who votes to acquit, if that vote doesn't result in a subsequent prosecution.  (And it can't, if the vote is unanimous for acquittal.)  Anyone who holds out for a conviction wouldn't get any money.
 As was stated in the movie Dr. Strangelove,  "Deterrence is the art of producing in the mind of the enemy the FEAR to attack".  If the only tool they have is to prosecute people, make them FEAR to do so and soon enough, they won't dare.  
What is the economics of all this?  Consider that in 2014 a record 3 trillion dollars in taxes was collected by the Federal government.  If those who paid those taxes were willing to donate 1% of that value once, to have it stopped, forever, that would amount to $30 billion.  If the average amount that had to be paid for a single death was $50,000, that would amount to 600,000 deaths.  Does anybody seriously believe that the USG (or any other government, for that matter) would even try to survive such a blow?  Clearly not:  They would resign.
            Jim Bell

Note to the ones monitoring:  1969 Supreme Court decision Brandenberg v. Ohio   https://www.law.cornell.edu/supremecourt/text/395/444  guarantees as 'protected speech' under the First Amendment even encouragement to others to commit crimes, as long as a riot-type situation is not going on.  There is no riot here, and I haven't encouraged anybody to commit any crime. There is no imminent lawless action anticipated.
"These are not the Cypherpunks we're looking for.  You can go about your business.  Move along"

[Quote from Brandenburg:]
The Ohio Criminal Syndicalism Statute was enacted in 1919. From 1917 to 1920, identical or quite similar laws were adopted by 20 States and two territories. E. Dowell, A History of Criminal Syndicalism Legislation in the United States 21 (1939). In 1927, this Court sustained the constitutionality of California's Criminal Syndicalism Act, Cal.Penal Code §§ 11400-11402, the text of which is quite similar to that of the laws of Ohio. Whitney v. California, 274 U.S. 357 (1927). The Court upheld the statute on the ground that, without more, "advocating" violent means to effect political and economic change involves such danger to the security of the State that the State may outlaw it. Cf. Fiske v. Kansas, 274 U.S. 380 (1927). But Whitney has been thoroughly discredited by later decisions. See Dennis v. United States, 341 U.S. 494, at 507 (1951). These later decisions have fashioned the principle that the constitutional guarantees of free speech and free press do not permit a State to forbid or proscribe advocacy of the use of force or of law violation except where such advocacy is directed to inciting or producing imminent lawless action and is likely to incite or produce such action. [n2] As we [p448] said in Noto v. United States, 367 U.S. 290, 297-298 (1961),the mere abstract teaching . . . of the moral propriety or even moral necessity for a resort to force and violence is not the same as preparing a group for violent action and steeling it to such action.See also Herndon v. Lowry, 301 U.S. 242, 259-261 (1937); Bond v. Floyd, 385 U.S. 116, 134 (1966). A statute which fails to draw this distinction impermissibly intrudes upon the freedoms guaranteed by the First and Fourteenth Amendments. It sweeps within its condemnation speech which our Constitution has immunized from governmental control. Cf. Yates v. United States, 354 U.S. 298 (1957); De Jonge v. Oregon, 299 U.S. 353 (1937); Stromberg v. California, 283 U.S. 359 (1931). See also United States v. Robel, 389 U.S. 258 (1967);Keyishian v. Board of Regents, 385 U.S. 589 (1967); Elfbrandt v. Russell, 384 U.S. 11 (1966); Aptheker v. Secretary of State, 378 U.S. 500(1964); Baggett v. Bullitt, 377 U.S. 360 (1964).Measured by this test, Ohio's Criminal Syndicalism Act cannot be sustained. The Act punishes persons who "advocate or teach the duty, necessity, or propriety" of violence "as a means of accomplishing industrial or political reform"; or who publish or circulate or display any book or paper containing such advocacy; or who "justify" the commission of violent acts "with intent to exemplify, spread or advocate the propriety of the doctrines of criminal syndicalism"; or who "voluntarily assemble" with a group formed "to teach or advocate the doctrines of criminal syndicalism." Neither the indictment nor the trial judge's instructions to the jury in any way refined the statute's bald definition of the crime[p449] in terms of mere advocacy not distinguished from incitement to imminent lawless action. [n3]Accordingly, we are here confronted with a statute which, by its own words and as applied, purports to punish mere advocacy and to forbid, on pain of criminal punishment, assembly with others merely to advocate the described type of action. [n4] Such a statute falls within the condemnation of the First and Fourteenth Amendments. The contrary teaching of Whitney v. California, supra, cannot be supported, and that decision is therefore overruled.Reversed.




  
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From oshwm at openmailbox.org  Sun Nov  1 01:27:47 2015
From: oshwm at openmailbox.org (oshwm)
Date: Sun, 01 Nov 2015 09:27:47 +0000
Subject: information imbalance - The Rise of Plitical Doxing [ bonus points
 for contrast with AP! :]
In-Reply-To: <CAJVRA1QgvXG8R12s=M8avNe6sD9kx3pBTt0SRQ2TxcwSxQgybw@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAJVRA1QgvXG8R12s=M8avNe6sD9kx3pBTt0SRQ2TxcwSxQgybw@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <5635DB13.7040508@openmailbox.org>



On 01/11/15 03:53, coderman wrote:
> http://motherboard.vice.com/read/the-rise-of-political-doxing
> 
> Last week, CIA director John O. Brennan became the latest victim of
> what's become a popular way to embarrass and harass people on the
> internet. A hacker allegedly broke into his AOL account and published
> emails and documents found inside, many of them personal and
> sensitive.
> 
> It's called doxing—sometimes doxxing—from the word "documents." It
> emerged in the 1990s as a hacker revenge tactic, and has since been as
> a tool to harass and intimidate people on the internet. Someone would
> threaten a woman with physical harm, or try to incite others to harm
> her, and publish her personal information as a way of saying "I know a
> lot about you—like where you live and work." Victims of doxing talk
> about the fear that this tactic instills. It's very effective, by
> which I mean that it's horrible.
> 
> Brennan's doxing was slightly different. Here, the attacker had a more
> political motive. He wasn't out to intimidate Brennan; he simply
> wanted to embarrass him. His personal papers were dumped
> indiscriminately, fodder for an eager press. This doxing was a
> political act, and we're seeing this kind of thing more and more.
> 
>     Lots of people will have to face the publication of personal
> correspondence, documents, and information they would rather be
> private
> 
> Last year, the government of North Korea allegedly did this to Sony.
> Hackers the FBI believes were working for North Korea broke into the
> company's networks, stole a huge amount of corporate data, and
> published it. This included unreleased movies, financial information,
> company plans, and personal emails. The reputational damage to the
> company was enormous; the company estimated the cost at $41 million.
> 
> In July, hackers stole and published sensitive documents from the
> cyberweapons arms manufacturer Hacking Team. That same month,
> different hackers did the same thing to the infidelity website Ashley
> Madison. In 2014, hackers broke into the iCloud accounts of over 100
> celebrities and published personal photographs, most containing some
> nudity. In 2013, Edward Snowden doxed the NSA.
> 
> These aren't the first instances of politically motivated doxing, but
> there's a clear trend. As people realize what an effective attack this
> can be, and how an individual can use the tactic to do considerable
> damage to powerful people and institutions, we're going to see a lot
> more of it.
> 
> On the internet, attack is easier than defense. We're living in a
> world where a sufficiently skilled and motivated attacker will
> circumvent network security. Even worse, most internet security
> assumes it needs to defend against an opportunistic attacker who will
> attack the weakest network in order to get—for example—a pile of
> credit card numbers. The notion of a targeted attacker, who wants Sony
> or Ashley Madison or John Brennan because of what they stand for, is
> still new. And it's even harder to defend against.
> 
> What this means is that we're going to see more political doxing in
> the future, against both people and institutions. It's going to be a
> factor in elections. It's going to be a factor in anti-corporate
> activism. More people will find their personal information exposed to
> the world: politicians, corporate executives, celebrities, divisive
> and outspoken individuals.
> 
> Of course they won't all be doxed, but some of them will. Some of them
> will be doxed directly, like Brennan. Some of them will be inadvertent
> victims of a doxing attack aimed at a company where their information
> is stored, like those celebrities with iPhone accounts and every
> customer of Ashley Madison. Regardless of the method, lots of people
> will have to face the publication of personal correspondence,
> documents, and information they would rather be private.
> 
> In the end, doxing is a tactic that the powerless can effectively use
> against the powerful. It can be used for whistleblowing. It can be
> used as a vehicle for social change. And it can be used to embarrass,
> harass, and intimidate. Its popularity will rise and fall on this
> effectiveness, especially in a world where prosecuting the doxers is
> so difficult.
> 
> There's no good solution for this right now. We all have the right to
> privacy, and we should be free from doxing. But we're not, and those
> of us who are in the public eye have no choice but to rethink our
> online data shadows.
> 

Political figures in most countries have been using their personal email
accounts to conduct business 'under the radar' in order to avoid
information being subject to oversight, most probably because its
illegal, unconstitutional or at the very least not good for the image of
governments.

When they started to do this, they threw the book on ethics in the bin
and opened themselves up to any abuse of their personal life that may
happen.

If people in power act properly in their professional dealings then
their is an argument against d0xing their personal information but once
they start to try to hide information then it's open season on every
aspect of their life.


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From intelemetry at openmailbox.org  Sun Nov  1 02:20:06 2015
From: intelemetry at openmailbox.org (intelemetry)
Date: Sun, 1 Nov 2015 10:20:06 +0000
Subject: The BlackList
In-Reply-To: <610880110.330106.1446346260872.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com>
References: <563552F7.7000103@openmailbox.org>
 <610880110.330106.1446346260872.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <5635E756.1030004@openmailbox.org>

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jim bell:
> From: intelemetry <intelemetry at openmailbox.org>
>> From: Cari Machet <carimachet at gmail.com> To: coderman 
>> <coderman at gmail.com> Cc: cpunks <cypherpunks at cpunks.org>; jim
>> bell <jdb10987 at yahoo.com> Sent: Friday, October 30, 2015 8:03 PM
>>  Subject: Re: The Black List
> 
>>> But I approached the problem differently:  I saw that very few
>>> people would want to pay, say, $10,000 to buy someone else's
>>> death.  But I immediately also saw that 10,000 people might
>>> want to pay $1 each for that outcome. That amounts to a
>>> crowdsourced decision, with its accompanying advantages and
>>> benefits.  And I also saw that such a functioning system would
>>> deter virtually everything which we call wrong in today's
>>> society.  Anybody who is trying to argue against an AP-type 
>>> system is inherently attempting to defend the hugely flawed
>>> status quo, even if they don't realize that. I also solved
>>> David Friedman's "Hard problem", see his book, "The Machinery
>>> of Freedom",  the previously-assumed difficulty or
>>> impossibility of providing for the defense of a fully
>>> libertarian or anarchistic society.  Perhaps my big advantage
>>> was that I didn't know Friedman's "Hard Problem" even existed,
>>> at least under that label, until long after I'd already solved
>>> it.
> 
>> Claiming that an assassination market solves the defense problem
>> in Friedman's utilitarian and general anarchocapitalism is very
>> bold. You have a betting pool for killing people.>You don't have
>> any sort of collection of funds that protect a society from
>> something like everyday crime, you've merely got a hit market.
> To the extent that crime presents a problem that needs to be
> solved, there is no reason that private organization can't exist to
> detect crime, and then prove it to an excellent standard.  Those
> who commit crimecan be presented with a choice:  make your victim
> whole, and/or accept preventive confinement, or earn a bounty on an
> AP-type system. Your idea is effectively crowdsourcing, which in
> many ways could be very useful for Friedman's hard problem.
> However, while remaining purely voluntary in nature, what
> differentiates your assassination market from:
> 
> - taxes (compulsory collection of small amounts from many) Taxes
> are, as you pointed out, compulsory.  Donating to an AP-type system
> won't be compulsory.  But potential criminals won't know who is
> donating, andwho is not donating.  And it will probably not matter:
> Most people, out of a sense of self-protection, will donate to such
> crime-prevention and detection funds,because they will amount to a
> deterrent against all criminals. - hits (a few wealthy individuals
> take out a contract)
> 
> 
> Moreover, you still are facing the 'free-rider' problem, where,
> "if everybody else in my community payed a dollar to kill this guy,
> why should I have to do so, it is only -1 dollar. I don't think
> 'free riders' will be much of a problem.  For one thing, I think
> the system (AP) will be vastly more efficient than the convention
> crimeprotection system.  (in the same way that military defense
> could be 100xcheaper.
> 
> 
> 
>> I am neither trying to discredit nor insult your ideas; just
>> curious if you could expound upon how an assassination market
>> fits into defense in a free society.
> 
>> This video might help set the context:
> 
>> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V0_Jd_MzGCw 'The Market for
>> Security | Robert P. Murphy ' - - Intelemetry
> I hope that someday, in the future, technology will advance to the
> point where transcripts to 55-minute videos can be automatically
> generated.  I can alreadysee that Murphy speaks rapidly, but I
> could easily read the transcript 10x as fast as he can speak it.
> By pointing to that video, you are effectively asking me to employ
> 55 minutes of my life on something which you say will merely "set
> the context". Murphy and his business partner, Robert Vroman,
> engaged in a public three-part debate about AP.  Vroman wote two,
> Murphy wrote one. Bob Vroman
> http://www.greenspun.com/bboard/q-and-a-fetch-msg.tcl?msg_id=009ape
> ,
> http://www.mail-archive.com/cypherpunks-moderated at minder.net/msg02068.
html
> and  of Bob Murphy,  www.anti-state.com/murphy/murphy17.html
> (although the Murphy essay might not be available, except as an
> archive on the Wayback Machine.) as well as by R.  Sukumaran
> http://www.idsa.in/strategicanalysis/CryptologyDigitalAssassinationand
theTerrorismFuturesMarket_rsukumaran_0404.html.
> 
Jim, astute and concise reply as always. If you're looking for a
shorter tract on some of Murphy's work you should consult this:

http://www.amazon.com/Chaos-Theory-Essays-Market-Anarchy/dp/1479258377

The Mises Institute is good about making their work freely available
as well.

> Further, consider
> 
> https://github.com/isislovecruft/patternsinthevoid/blob/master/content
/anarchism/game-theory-anarchism-ii-how-information-can-smash-the-state.
md
>
> 
https://c4ss.org/content/1157
> 
> series -- anti-state.com

I think the idea of assassination politics distills to a very
insightful approach to defense and crowdsourcing in general.

However, from the vantage point of anarchism one crucial aspect worthy
of consideration is that of self autonomy and negative liberty. You
don't have "freedom to," but rather "freedom from" the state. With
assassination politics there is an argument that this is retributive
justice regarding compulsory theft of assets (and property, in certain
instances). However, I strongly urge you to consider that the taking
of a life is serious business.

Consider this:

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3208907/The-Ashley-Madison-suici
de-Texas-police-chief-takes-life-just-days-email-leaked-cheating-website
- -hack.html

There are lesser means that can be employed and crowdfunded which
could strongly dis-incentivize working for the state (such as invasion
of privacy, which is arguably retributive with respect to Rothbard's
notion of justice).

The problem with David Friedman is that he approaches
Anarchocapitalism like a problem in physics. It will just end up a
certain way because market forces will make things happen. However,
one thing that he does not take into consideration (for instance,
where he differs from the Independent Institute and the Mises
Institute) is the notion of individual freedom and the right of
neither the state nor any external actor to violate your personal
autonomy (which you can extrapolate from your body/mind and unto you
property).

- From the Friedmanite perspective, citizenry will kill the state, the
state will kill back, and the process will reach an equilibrium. While
that might work in the 'market sense,' to reach that state requires
pretty grotesque action to take place.

That is the problem with Utilitarian Anarchocapitalism. There is no
real consideration of actual human rights, it is a market driven
theory on how society could potentially function in the absence of the
state. Nothing more.

> 
> 
> 
> 
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From intelemetry at openmailbox.org  Sun Nov  1 02:52:53 2015
From: intelemetry at openmailbox.org (intelemetry)
Date: Sun, 1 Nov 2015 10:52:53 +0000
Subject: The BlackList
In-Reply-To: <1618172215.394932.1446357637717.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com>
References: <563552F7.7000103@openmailbox.org>
 <1618172215.394932.1446357637717.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <5635EF05.3030709@openmailbox.org>

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jim bell:
> From: intelemetry <intelemetry at openmailbox.org>
> 
>> This video might help set the context: 
>> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V0_Jd_MzGCw 'The Market for
>> Security | Robert P. Murphy '
> 
> - - Intelemetry
> 
> I will explain to you why selecting Murphy to support any arguments
> you have is misguided.   Here is a paragraph from his essay, itself
> a response to his business partner, Robert Vroman, at:
> https://web.archive.org/web/20060208094246/http://www.anti-state.com/m
urphy/murphy17.html
> I will first quote the whole paragraph, and then address it
> inline: "Simply put, I don't think Vroman or Bell realize just how
> nutty and horrible the AP idea seems to the average American.
> Especially if the government institutes a standing penalty of, say,
> a mandatory twenty-five years for placing an AP donation, I don't
> think we will have the millions of small donations that AP
> requires. The situation would be a prisoner's dilemma: No
> individual donation of $10 or even $100 is going to make the
> difference between a target being killed or not, and so there would
> be no reason for the average person to use AP. The fact that the
> donations could be made "safely" is not enough; the government
> would surely institute eavesdropping measures and would punish
> anyone who even visited AP sites.

I selected Murphy because you mentioned Friedman's hard problem of
privatizing defense without the presence of state actors. Your
solution is crowdfunding assassinations of anybody who is unpopular.
This does fit within the paradigm of Friedman's approach.

I would argue that Murphy's approach of collectives banding together
and entering into private arbitration agreements with private defense
contractors is more reasonable in preserving liberty and security. By
entering into said private arbitration agreement with a private
defense force, you also have aspects of private jurisprudence. The
arbitration clause can have stipulations for certain scenarios and how
they are dealt with (e.g., trials, fines, etc).

Democracy is the tyranny of the majority, and assassination politics
is dangerous in that regard when they are coupled. Private arbitration
agreements with private security forces wherein mobility has
reciprocal agreements (similar to current travel) seems more reasonable.

I would suggest you consider the countereconomics work of SEK (e.g.
agorism) and Vaclav Benda. Benda is an interesting case because he did
his work on parallel structures while under the Soviet Union.

The conclusion was that -- in the presence of an oppressive state -- a
robust solution was an overlay of private and hidden societies as
opposed to direct overt warfare with the state.

> My replies inline: Simply put, I don't think Vroman or Bell realize
> just how nutty and horrible the AP idea seems to the average
> American. I should point out why I view Murphy's comment as being
> wacky, in itself.  The "average American" is fairly familiar with
> the deficiencies of the world's status quo.

I think your assumptions regarding the average American are wrong, but
that is my opinion. Don't underestimate the power of memetic warfare,
neurolinguistic programming, and general propaganda.

 But he may not be aware that it has been estimated that in the 20th
century, about 250 million people DIED, killed by the actions of
governments.
http://www.evil.news/2015-10-07-national-governments-murdered-262-millio
n-people-over-the-last-century.html
   Does Murphy impllicitly or explicitly say that is somehow "okay"?
I very much doubt he'd say that was acceptable, and he probably
couldn't argue much with the numbers themselves.  But suppose those
"average Americans" were FIRST fully informed of this fact, even
simply as an estimate.  THEN, suppose it was explained to him HOW a
functioning AP system wouldn't allow that to happen, if necessary by
killing whatever number of government employees were necessary to stop
this, the "Democide".   If those "average Americans" were reminded
that the death of a government employee is no more unfortunate than
the death of ordinary citizens, then wouldn't it be reasonable to
conclude that to save 250 million ordinary citizens, it would
certainly be acceptable to kill 25 million government employees, and
certainly 2.5 million government employees?
> The "average American" has been aware, during and since the 1960's,
> that the citizens of many major governments have been under a
> nuclear terror.  Now, it seems, we simply accept it as it is a
> reality.  As shocking as that may see, perhaps it's made more
> understandable by the fact that there has not seemed to be anything
> we can do about it. Suppose, then, these "average Americans" were
> told that a functioning AP system would make any nation's holding
> of nuclear weapons absolutely impossible:  They are in the control
> of SOMEONE, or maybe hundreds and thousands of someones, and such
> people can be targeted by AP until those weapons are finally shut
> down, and dismantled, and permanently rendered safe.  As many
> government employees could be killed until that occurs.  No limit
> whatsoever. So, where does Bob Murphy get off saying that the
> "Average American" would find AP "nutty and horrible"?  I say, to
> the contrary, that a _well-informed_ "average American", informed
> of what I say AP could accomplish, would find Murphy himself and
> his arguments "nutty and horrible".  Why should the citizens of the
> world tolerate the killing of 250 million more people by
> governments, beyond the 20th Century's toll?  Why should the
> citizens of the world tolerate continuing to be held as nuclear
> hostages, targets of 2000 nuclear bombs, just to keep a few
> governments in power?  Clearly, Murphy views the world's citizens'
> "natural state" to being owned and held hostage by governments, and
> certainly not the opposite!
> 
> " Especially if the government institutes a standing penalty of,
> say, a mandatory twenty-five years for placing an AP donation, I
> don't think we will have the millions of small donations that AP
> requires. The situation would be a prisoner's dilemma: No
> individual donation of $10 or even $100 is going to make the
> difference between a target being killed or not, and so there would
> be no reason for the average person to use AP. The fact that the
> donations could be made "safely" is not enough; the government
> would surely institute eavesdropping measures and would punish
> anyone who even visited AP sites."
> 
> Murphy, here, is beginning to show his 'inner paranoid'.  "They
> would never let us do it!!!"Which, is one reasons we MUST do it.
> I would say, to the contrary of what he said, that if "they", the
> governments, don't want us to do something SO MUCH, then that's all
> the more reason we should disregard those governments' official
> desires.                    Jim Bell
> 

There are arguably technical countermeasures to his argument. E.g. PoC:

https://github.com/Miserlou/HitStarter

^^ you might get a kick out of that ^^

> 
> 
> 
> 
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From coderman at gmail.com  Sun Nov  1 12:05:51 2015
From: coderman at gmail.com (coderman)
Date: Sun, 1 Nov 2015 12:05:51 -0800
Subject: Bitcoin Halloween... A Dangerous Idea... They're Terrified We'll
 Use It
In-Reply-To: <5635D95C.4030303@openmailbox.org>
References: <CAD2Ti2-r9KgEYqk4DQm828a16ZK5Ub5GX2USsv1ppVSKbnkLrw@mail.gmail.com>
 <1471381325.408517.1446365277696.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com>
 <5635D95C.4030303@openmailbox.org>
Message-ID: <CAJVRA1Tv0s9gA8sQJ4eBRt9TXt6j8S_T95ErifEotFSWXwgnFw@mail.gmail.com>

On 11/1/15, oshwm <oshwm at openmailbox.org> wrote:
> ...
> Please accept my apologies if I'm teaching granny to suck eggs, being
> trolled, shit like that but I'm going to assume minimal knowledge of
> this...

the beauty of forever on the web, is that if only one finds your reply useful,
 one day, then all not in vain, even when trolled lightly, or with vigor. ;)



> Basically, you have a bunch of tools designed to hide your
> communications when using the internet.
>
> This particular set of tools has at it's core, The Onion Router (Tor)
> which passes your internet communications via many different proxies
> using multiple layers of encryption so that none of the proxies in the
> middle of this chain can identify the source and destination of the
> connection.
>
> Tor can be used to hide your communications when looking at normal
> websites such as www.cryptome.com but this carries a risk.
> Any of the proxies can be monitored and using traffic correlation you
> can be identified by comparing the communications entering Tor and
> exiting Tor (to reach the website).
>
> To avoid this, you can use Tor to only access Hidden web servers so that
> your traffic never leaves the Tor network, making the traffic
> correlation techniques much harder to do.
>
> These hidden web servers are only visible in the Tor network and their
> web addresses end in .onion
>
> Hence, people referring to onions :)
>
> So, if you wish to view the content on the hidden servers like the one
> coderman linked to then you need access to the Tor network.
>
> The Tor project make a modified version of the Firefox web browser
> available for download and install that gives a simple way to access Tor
> without having to do much messing about with your computer.
> It also, has a modified configuration to reduce the amount of private
> information you leak when using it.
>
> Information from the horses mouth:
> https://www.torproject.org/about/overview.html.en
>
> Download the Tor Browser:
> https://www.torproject.org/download/download.html.en
>
> The quality of information available at the Tor link will far surpass
> what I have just written and you should assume small but possibly
> devastating inaccuracies in my description above :)
>
> Sorry for the long post but I couldn't think of a quick way of writing
> it if you haven't come across Tor before.
>
> There are also other similar systems: i2p, freenet but Tor seems to be
> the most popular.
>
> Something to weigh up though is that Tor was created by the US Navy and
> the project still receives US Government funding so you should probably
> bear this in mind when using it although reading more information on the
> Tor Project's website may or may not reduce feelings of discomfort that
> come from knowing where the funding comes from.
>
> Cheers,
> oshwm


thank you! a reasonable summary for certain.


and Jim,

this special ".onion" domain is reserved by Tor, and recently
officially recognized.

when connecting via SocksPort, and requesting connection to a *.onion
host, tor the process handles this hidden service circuit building
internally, and connects the "hidden server" to your client through
this SocksPort connection.

this is why saying "Onions should not resolve" via normal means,
 is another way of saying "Use the Tor network to access that hidden site."

an excellent detailed technical review is here:
 https://ritter.vg/p/tor-vlatest.pdf

---

pedant detour:
 there is DNSPort and TransPort, which allows transparent proxy of
connections. when behind a transparent Tor proxy, DNS will indeed
resolve onions correctly, and your normal browser can reach these
previously unresolvable/unroutable destinations.

see https://trac.torproject.org/projects/tor/wiki/doc/TransparentProxy
for details and caveats...


best regards,




From coderman at gmail.com  Sun Nov  1 12:11:37 2015
From: coderman at gmail.com (coderman)
Date: Sun, 1 Nov 2015 12:11:37 -0800
Subject: slow strangulation of the state, instead of violent phase transition
 out of state
Message-ID: <CAJVRA1QtGkhNWEb0KTMGOA+ui5MmFVeYoS2350vzTTxMnN=-tA@mail.gmail.com>

On 11/1/15, intelemetry <intelemetry at openmailbox.org> wrote:
> ...
> I would suggest you consider the countereconomics work of SEK (e.g.
> agorism) and Vaclav Benda. Benda is an interesting case because he did
> his work on parallel structures while under the Soviet Union.
>
> The conclusion was that -- in the presence of an oppressive state -- a
> robust solution was an overlay of private and hidden societies as
> opposed to direct overt warfare with the state.


supplant the state with multiplicity of better mechanisms,
 and through this usurp the power and authority of the state,
  until nothing left but hollow fictions of formality (of former state).




From coderman at gmail.com  Sun Nov  1 12:16:50 2015
From: coderman at gmail.com (coderman)
Date: Sun, 1 Nov 2015 12:16:50 -0800
Subject: information imbalance - The Rise of Plitical Doxing [ bonus
 points for contrast with AP! :]
In-Reply-To: <56366699.2040700@openmailbox.org>
References: <CAJVRA1QgvXG8R12s=M8avNe6sD9kx3pBTt0SRQ2TxcwSxQgybw@mail.gmail.com>
 <5635DB13.7040508@openmailbox.org> <56365744.60709@openmailbox.org>
 <56366699.2040700@openmailbox.org>
Message-ID: <CAJVRA1TRD4Z19pMNHzLBJF-KfKB3AQ+TcrWfLqctmNPD55A9Pg@mail.gmail.com>

On 11/1/15, oshwm <oshwm at openmailbox.org> wrote:
> ...
> Didn't Barrett Brown end up in Solitary Confinement for giving out links
> to data?

also, idling in IRC is consent for activities of others!




From coderman at gmail.com  Sun Nov  1 12:19:36 2015
From: coderman at gmail.com (coderman)
Date: Sun, 1 Nov 2015 12:19:36 -0800
Subject: information imbalance - The Rise of Plitical Doxing [ bonus
 points for contrast with AP! :]
In-Reply-To: <56366FC0.30900@riseup.net>
References: <CAJVRA1QgvXG8R12s=M8avNe6sD9kx3pBTt0SRQ2TxcwSxQgybw@mail.gmail.com>
 <5635DB13.7040508@openmailbox.org> <56365744.60709@openmailbox.org>
 <56366699.2040700@openmailbox.org>
 <563668F0.4070908@openmailbox.org> <56366FC0.30900@riseup.net>
Message-ID: <CAJVRA1SS6ji5xYt5NknXO58jf+fCKNi1HvS8_DDfENXY4iBG=w@mail.gmail.com>

On 11/1/15, Douglas Lucas <dal at riseup.net> wrote:
> ...
> My article at Revolution News analyzing the transcript to his second
> and final sentencing hearing, answers this question in detail.
>
> http://revolution-news.com/barrett-brown-vs-the-dept-of-justice-defining-the-right-to-link/


thanks for pointing out OPSEC failures against federal agents. while i
think it is unreasonable to expect anyone but hardened #infosec
malcontents to be able to do this, reliably, i understand why you
point this out as most significant liability for Barry.

my selfish take:
 his writing from prison is much more potent. it will be good for him?
(it is at least entertaining to me. and his commissary can always use
a tip! :)


best regards,




From grarpamp at gmail.com  Sun Nov  1 10:16:55 2015
From: grarpamp at gmail.com (grarpamp)
Date: Sun, 1 Nov 2015 13:16:55 -0500
Subject: Value of Earth Human Life
In-Reply-To: <2016477829.396270.1446369912828.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com>
References: <CAD2Ti2_BYEkPis9yGqhMUC-NNVAueAWCvm1v7awDTW8sLRv+ew@mail.gmail.com>
 <2016477829.396270.1446369912828.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <CAD2Ti28OQB-wSK3gM8q-eumPN0vsqDeMwJNZH85ZJKfFiziFYw@mail.gmail.com>

On Sun, Nov 1, 2015 at 4:25 AM, jim bell <jdb10987 at yahoo.com> wrote:
> over in just a few months, with the government(s) yelling, "We surrender!".

If you're out to address governments that is. Corporations can benefit
from such guidance too, however since they usually don't have Pinkerton
tribunals of their own, odds of successfull fulfillment of market
contracts increase by addressing govt impediments at same time.

> reward for $10,000 for any juror who votes to acquit, if that vote doesn't

Jury nullification, even one not guilty forces a new trial which is a big
risk and pain in the ass for prosecution.

Establishing contracts for people to just take the day off and plead
not guilty to get a real hearing and possible trial for their stupid $150
revenue traffic ticket. There's nothing to lose by doing so.
Right now the system is counting *entirely* on frictionless pleading
guilty and paying out via credit card. The potential impact of well
blogged reports of successes here is enormous.

Paying people to hand out pamphlets about same on court steps.

And that's just educational possibilities at no cost to them.
Once people see how the system works, and that they
can win as a collective, things start changing. It's about
getting the ball rolling and people up off their asses, little
bounties here and there.

> amount that had to be paid for a single death was $50,000, that would amount

Doesn't even have to be death, could be damage, raising costs,
a little taxing of resources and capabilities here and there, strategic
and tactical support to various efforts. The CIA does it, so can you.
Though like as you say, without altering power to tax, that
will provide only a temporary drop on their side.

> What is the economics of all this?  Consider that in 2014 a record 3 trillion dollars ... 1% ... to have it stopped, forever, that would amount to $30 billion. Does anybody seriously believe that ... would even try to survive such a blow?  Clearly not:  They would resign.

People don't yet comprehend their ability to and results from
steering lots of micro funds, even matching funds, into successful
actions and macro effects they want. You'd think they would have
learned that from the two examples of 1) Bin Laden, and 2) the
ensuing govt micro funded (taxed) response by now.




From intelemetry at openmailbox.org  Sun Nov  1 05:27:33 2015
From: intelemetry at openmailbox.org (intelemetry)
Date: Sun, 1 Nov 2015 13:27:33 +0000
Subject: The BlackList
In-Reply-To: <CAGRDzQXHgNgQR358jHreMYj2tH_A2zX_fjQJF7NwVYReANTnGQ@mail.gmail.com>
References: <563552F7.7000103@openmailbox.org>
 <1618172215.394932.1446357637717.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com>
 <5635EF05.3030709@openmailbox.org>
 <CAGRDzQXHgNgQR358jHreMYj2tH_A2zX_fjQJF7NwVYReANTnGQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <56361345.4040905@openmailbox.org>

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA512

Cari Machet:
> also the dude is just replacing the state with capitalism and
> anarcho capitalism is bullshit anarchy is against any that is any
> any any structure impossing its structure on the people and fucking
> capitalism is a structure so anarco capitalists should rename
> themselves
> 
> the dude talks about that the community the community would not
> allow this or that if someone stole your tv the community would not
> allow you to just go in the dudes hut and take it back - you need
> an intermediary ... but this is monolithic thinking ... which is a
> pit in theories ... they strangle themselves with coffinesque
> solutions instead of being base theory
> 
> ++++++++++
> 
> so fucking blackwater has been doing this shit for a while now ...
> gun for hire and what i am not reading here is any consciousness
> that the murder/war zone is a fucking hopped up place the people
> that perform these actions are getting off on

There are many private mercenaries that don't work for a state.
Organized crime and corporations use private security forces. In fact,
in situations where there is a state but law enforcement does not
exist gangs effectively perform this function. You adhere to a group
wherein your membership is an arbitration agreement that includes
protection in exchange for whatever it is you must do.

In certain ethnic areas private law enforcement is carried out on an
ad-hoc, hierarchical community level wherein citizens don't trust the
police (e.g. "illegal" immigrant enclaves). This is not too far from a
privatization of defense.

> 
> https://youtu.be/zm5E10EhSp0?t=16m45s
> 
> i found the place for you where he says combat is like no other
> drug jim so you dont have to listen to everything
> 
> so some people get off on the murder
> 
> but we have to already know that
> 
> the idea behind dropping the bombs on japan was like this deterrent
> or that is what generally american people think anyway ... the
> japanese would not give an unconditional surrender yet they had
> surrendered
> 
> all these mass murder desires need to be shifted out as i think
> they are strong entities in and of themselves apart from money the
> psyche is straight up blood lust blood thirsty fucks ... why we
> have blood thirsty fucks everywhere ??? why do people get off on
> murder/war like it is a drug ? until these mindsets are twisted out
> of themselves and drained of energy clear theory of crowd sourced
> assassination for deterrent cannot fully work... if it was like one
> or two crazy fucks that desired combat and murder to get off then
> that would be one thing but this is like a lot of fucks and even
> the fucking american psyche associations enjoy hurting people
> 
> there are many fronts to work on all at the same time to shift out
> of all of this
> 
> On Sun, Nov 1, 2015 at 12:52 PM, intelemetry
> <intelemetry at openmailbox.org> wrote:
> 
> jim bell:
>>>> From: intelemetry <intelemetry at openmailbox.org>
>>>> 
>>>>> This video might help set the context: 
>>>>> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V0_Jd_MzGCw 'The Market
>>>>> for Security | Robert P. Murphy '
>>>> 
>>>> - - Intelemetry
>>>> 
>>>> I will explain to you why selecting Murphy to support any
>>>> arguments you have is misguided.   Here is a paragraph from
>>>> his essay, itself a response to his business partner, Robert
>>>> Vroman, at: 
>>>> https://web.archive.org/web/20060208094246/http://www.anti-state.co
m/m
>
>>>> 
urphy/murphy17.html
>>>> I will first quote the whole paragraph, and then address it 
>>>> inline: "Simply put, I don't think Vroman or Bell realize
>>>> just how nutty and horrible the AP idea seems to the average
>>>> American. Especially if the government institutes a standing
>>>> penalty of, say, a mandatory twenty-five years for placing an
>>>> AP donation, I don't think we will have the millions of small
>>>> donations that AP requires. The situation would be a
>>>> prisoner's dilemma: No individual donation of $10 or even
>>>> $100 is going to make the difference between a target being
>>>> killed or not, and so there would be no reason for the
>>>> average person to use AP. The fact that the donations could
>>>> be made "safely" is not enough; the government would surely
>>>> institute eavesdropping measures and would punish anyone who
>>>> even visited AP sites.
> 
> I selected Murphy because you mentioned Friedman's hard problem of 
> privatizing defense without the presence of state actors. Your 
> solution is crowdfunding assassinations of anybody who is
> unpopular. This does fit within the paradigm of Friedman's
> approach.
> 
> I would argue that Murphy's approach of collectives banding
> together and entering into private arbitration agreements with
> private defense contractors is more reasonable in preserving
> liberty and security. By entering into said private arbitration
> agreement with a private defense force, you also have aspects of
> private jurisprudence. The arbitration clause can have stipulations
> for certain scenarios and how they are dealt with (e.g., trials,
> fines, etc).
> 
> Democracy is the tyranny of the majority, and assassination
> politics is dangerous in that regard when they are coupled. Private
> arbitration agreements with private security forces wherein
> mobility has reciprocal agreements (similar to current travel)
> seems more reasonable.
> 
> I would suggest you consider the countereconomics work of SEK
> (e.g. agorism) and Vaclav Benda. Benda is an interesting case
> because he did his work on parallel structures while under the
> Soviet Union.
> 
> The conclusion was that -- in the presence of an oppressive state
> -- a robust solution was an overlay of private and hidden societies
> as opposed to direct overt warfare with the state.
> 
>>>> My replies inline: Simply put, I don't think Vroman or Bell
>>>> realize just how nutty and horrible the AP idea seems to the
>>>> average American. I should point out why I view Murphy's
>>>> comment as being wacky, in itself.  The "average American" is
>>>> fairly familiar with the deficiencies of the world's status
>>>> quo.
> 
> I think your assumptions regarding the average American are wrong,
> but that is my opinion. Don't underestimate the power of memetic
> warfare, neurolinguistic programming, and general propaganda.
> 
> But he may not be aware that it has been estimated that in the
> 20th century, about 250 million people DIED, killed by the actions
> of governments. 
> http://www.evil.news/2015-10-07-national-governments-murdered-262-mill
io
>
> 
n-people-over-the-last-century.html
> Does Murphy impllicitly or explicitly say that is somehow "okay"? I
> very much doubt he'd say that was acceptable, and he probably 
> couldn't argue much with the numbers themselves.  But suppose
> those "average Americans" were FIRST fully informed of this fact,
> even simply as an estimate.  THEN, suppose it was explained to him
> HOW a functioning AP system wouldn't allow that to happen, if
> necessary by killing whatever number of government employees were
> necessary to stop this, the "Democide".   If those "average
> Americans" were reminded that the death of a government employee is
> no more unfortunate than the death of ordinary citizens, then
> wouldn't it be reasonable to conclude that to save 250 million
> ordinary citizens, it would certainly be acceptable to kill 25
> million government employees, and certainly 2.5 million government
> employees?
>>>> The "average American" has been aware, during and since the
>>>> 1960's, that the citizens of many major governments have been
>>>> under a nuclear terror.  Now, it seems, we simply accept it
>>>> as it is a reality.  As shocking as that may see, perhaps
>>>> it's made more understandable by the fact that there has not
>>>> seemed to be anything we can do about it. Suppose, then,
>>>> these "average Americans" were told that a functioning AP
>>>> system would make any nation's holding of nuclear weapons
>>>> absolutely impossible:  They are in the control of SOMEONE,
>>>> or maybe hundreds and thousands of someones, and such people
>>>> can be targeted by AP until those weapons are finally shut 
>>>> down, and dismantled, and permanently rendered safe.  As
>>>> many government employees could be killed until that occurs.
>>>> No limit whatsoever. So, where does Bob Murphy get off saying
>>>> that the "Average American" would find AP "nutty and
>>>> horrible"?  I say, to the contrary, that a _well-informed_
>>>> "average American", informed of what I say AP could
>>>> accomplish, would find Murphy himself and his arguments
>>>> "nutty and horrible".  Why should the citizens of the world
>>>> tolerate the killing of 250 million more people by 
>>>> governments, beyond the 20th Century's toll?  Why should the 
>>>> citizens of the world tolerate continuing to be held as
>>>> nuclear hostages, targets of 2000 nuclear bombs, just to keep
>>>> a few governments in power?  Clearly, Murphy views the
>>>> world's citizens' "natural state" to being owned and held
>>>> hostage by governments, and certainly not the opposite!
>>>> 
>>>> " Especially if the government institutes a standing penalty
>>>> of, say, a mandatory twenty-five years for placing an AP
>>>> donation, I don't think we will have the millions of small
>>>> donations that AP requires. The situation would be a
>>>> prisoner's dilemma: No individual donation of $10 or even
>>>> $100 is going to make the difference between a target being
>>>> killed or not, and so there would be no reason for the
>>>> average person to use AP. The fact that the donations could
>>>> be made "safely" is not enough; the government would surely
>>>> institute eavesdropping measures and would punish anyone who
>>>> even visited AP sites."
>>>> 
>>>> Murphy, here, is beginning to show his 'inner paranoid'.
>>>> "They would never let us do it!!!"Which, is one reasons we
>>>> MUST do it. I would say, to the contrary of what he said,
>>>> that if "they", the governments, don't want us to do
>>>> something SO MUCH, then that's all the more reason we should
>>>> disregard those governments' official desires.
>>>> Jim Bell
>>>> 
> 
> There are arguably technical countermeasures to his argument. E.g.
> PoC:
> 
> https://github.com/Miserlou/HitStarter
> 
> ^^ you might get a kick out of that ^^
> 
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> 
>> 
> 
> 
> 
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From coderman at gmail.com  Sun Nov  1 13:51:24 2015
From: coderman at gmail.com (coderman)
Date: Sun, 1 Nov 2015 13:51:24 -0800
Subject: information imbalance - The Rise of Plitical Doxing [ bonus
 points for contrast with AP! :]
In-Reply-To: <56367655.9040005@openmailbox.org>
References: <CAJVRA1QgvXG8R12s=M8avNe6sD9kx3pBTt0SRQ2TxcwSxQgybw@mail.gmail.com>
 <5635DB13.7040508@openmailbox.org> <56365744.60709@openmailbox.org>
 <56366699.2040700@openmailbox.org>
 <563668F0.4070908@openmailbox.org>
 <56366B45.8050708@openmailbox.org>
 <563672A3.9060600@openmailbox.org>
 <56367655.9040005@openmailbox.org>
Message-ID: <CAJVRA1QHL-tYjcPezVKEj43U4PJQmSWi3fnOsDPu22NYhBgSiQ@mail.gmail.com>

On 11/1/15, oshwm <oshwm at openmailbox.org> wrote:
> A lot of reading there for me to be able to answer intelligently but I
> see what you're saying - how to walk out of the door with all that data
> on a Lady Gaga CD :D

that was Manning. Snowden got all the Zunes outlawed :P




From grarpamp at gmail.com  Sun Nov  1 10:55:53 2015
From: grarpamp at gmail.com (grarpamp)
Date: Sun, 1 Nov 2015 13:55:53 -0500
Subject: Bitcoin Halloween... A Dangerous Idea... They're Terrified We'll
 Use It
In-Reply-To: <1471381325.408517.1446365277696.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com>
References: <CAD2Ti2-r9KgEYqk4DQm828a16ZK5Ub5GX2USsv1ppVSKbnkLrw@mail.gmail.com>
 <1471381325.408517.1446365277696.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <CAD2Ti2-oqKze6U=TtyxzE0_PQOQk5Ejsa_4Y9-ortLFbMnSdFQ@mail.gmail.com>

On Sun, Nov 1, 2015 at 3:07 AM, jim bell <jdb10987 at yahoo.com> wrote:
> Onions should never resolve, so the answer is no.
>
> I wish I understood what you just said.

When you ask your browser to show you cpunks.org,
your browser takes that name, asks your computer to
translate (resolve) that name into an IP address. Your
computer doesn't have the knowledge to do that so
it then in turn sends the question out to the nameservers
(resolvers) on the internet. They look up the name to IP
mapping in their tables and send the IP back to your computer
and browser which then turns around and connects back
out over the internet to that IP address (cpunks server) which
then sends the page back to your browser for display.
Under the hood the internet (routers) only know IP traffic,
so you need that translation layer if you want to punch
names into your browser bar instead of IP numbers.

While blockchainbdgpzk.onion is a name, .onion
names are based on crypto under the hood, not IP's,
and they're understood to belong to the Tor network,
not the internet network. (Even though Tor rides on
top of the internet somewhat like letters in sealed envelopes
through the post office.)

So just punching onions into your browser (which
ultimately only knows the IP based internet) should not
"work" unless you've installed software and modified
your system to support that.

If it does "work" and you're not aware that you've specifically
modified your system to do that, then you're under attack
and should seek help.

For reasonably randomly trustable walk-in support / mentorship
you might try computer clubs in your area.
For punkery, trust no one :)




From dal at riseup.net  Sun Nov  1 12:02:08 2015
From: dal at riseup.net (Douglas Lucas)
Date: Sun, 1 Nov 2015 14:02:08 -0600
Subject: information imbalance - The Rise of Plitical Doxing [ bonus
 points for contrast with AP! :]
In-Reply-To: <563668F0.4070908@openmailbox.org>
References: <CAJVRA1QgvXG8R12s=M8avNe6sD9kx3pBTt0SRQ2TxcwSxQgybw@mail.gmail.com>
 <5635DB13.7040508@openmailbox.org> <56365744.60709@openmailbox.org>
 <56366699.2040700@openmailbox.org> <563668F0.4070908@openmailbox.org>
Message-ID: <56366FC0.30900@riseup.net>



On 11/01/2015 01:33 PM, intelemetry wrote:
>> Didn't Barrett Brown end up in Solitary Confinement for giving
>> out links to data?

My article at Revolution News analyzing the transcript to his second
and final sentencing hearing, answers this question in detail.

http://revolution-news.com/barrett-brown-vs-the-dept-of-justice-defining-the-right-to-link/




From grarpamp at gmail.com  Sun Nov  1 11:23:49 2015
From: grarpamp at gmail.com (grarpamp)
Date: Sun, 1 Nov 2015 14:23:49 -0500
Subject: [tor-talk] OTR and logging
In-Reply-To: <20151101151537.GB961@thinkpad.swarthmore.edu>
References: <CAJVRA1Qq7U_tn-KyvacFj3EEhu_omeht+TFhxjBEv3qiFGeUWQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <1702754326.357522.1446347780724.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com>
 <CAJVRA1SWqiexxXuoOD1B9+gPs+0d=QsJyNT5mnquW+51Lo7MvQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAD2Ti293=RMPqSXLfMMiKugzh=Nb-626njL95UDOSpRCnYTGew@mail.gmail.com>
 <20151101151537.GB961@thinkpad.swarthmore.edu>
Message-ID: <CAD2Ti28hKHwqXUGV2tx73Da1KRkABNO9WxqcYah+_QXcbru2xQ@mail.gmail.com>

On Sun, Nov 1, 2015 at 10:15 AM, Michael McConville
<mmcconv1 at sccs.swarthmore.edu> wrote:
> Tor Messenger *definitely* shouldn't log by default. This defeats much
> of the purpose of private chat, and many people back up unencrypted to
> the cloud. I think the OTR people specifically suggest that you don't
> log.

You're a fool if you think your "private chat" isn't loggable or
being logged just because whatever app you're using doesn't
have a logging / recording button. Fix your belief... regardless
of whether or not the button exists. That's all I'm saying.




From grarpamp at gmail.com  Sun Nov  1 11:41:11 2015
From: grarpamp at gmail.com (grarpamp)
Date: Sun, 1 Nov 2015 14:41:11 -0500
Subject: The United States of Air (novel) free ebook
In-Reply-To: <20151101142117.GC1760@fedora-21-dvm>
References: <CANFTA08bjQimHDM9wDa0-P-Zffn25aBh0zaTFF_TxdHrinEmrw@mail.gmail.com>
 <20151101142117.GC1760@fedora-21-dvm>
Message-ID: <CAD2Ti296pZaNOvxrtfaUte2rGNGv2Ms_HAweLBbdR=xs2D0+BQ@mail.gmail.com>

On Sun, Nov 1, 2015 at 9:21 AM, J.M. Porup <jm at porup.com> wrote:
> The United States of Air is a satire that makes fun of mass
> surveillance and the NSA.

Surveillance isn't funny.
It takes legendary comedic talent to acknowledge that and drive it home,
everything else are humor-ops attempting to pass it off as non-serious.
Hundreds of channels, filled with ops. Where's the signal (beef)?

> https://github.com/toholdaquill/united-states-of-air
> http://podiobooks.com/title/the-united-states-of-air-a-satire/




From jm at porup.com  Sun Nov  1 11:45:27 2015
From: jm at porup.com (J.M. Porup)
Date: Sun, 1 Nov 2015 14:45:27 -0500
Subject: The United States of Air (novel) free ebook
In-Reply-To: <CAD2Ti296pZaNOvxrtfaUte2rGNGv2Ms_HAweLBbdR=xs2D0+BQ@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CANFTA08bjQimHDM9wDa0-P-Zffn25aBh0zaTFF_TxdHrinEmrw@mail.gmail.com>
 <20151101142117.GC1760@fedora-21-dvm>
 <CAD2Ti296pZaNOvxrtfaUte2rGNGv2Ms_HAweLBbdR=xs2D0+BQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <20151101194527.GD1702@fedora-21-dvm>

On Sun, Nov 01, 2015 at 02:41:11PM -0500, grarpamp wrote:
> On Sun, Nov 1, 2015 at 9:21 AM, J.M. Porup <jm at porup.com> wrote:
> > The United States of Air is a satire that makes fun of mass
> > surveillance and the NSA.
> 
> Surveillance isn't funny.
> It takes legendary comedic talent to acknowledge that and drive it home,
> everything else are humor-ops attempting to pass it off as non-serious.
> Hundreds of channels, filled with ops. Where's the signal (beef)?

I agree.

Maybe read the book before you judge it?

Jens
 
> > https://github.com/toholdaquill/united-states-of-air
> > http://podiobooks.com/title/the-united-states-of-air-a-satire/




From carimachet at gmail.com  Sun Nov  1 05:18:04 2015
From: carimachet at gmail.com (Cari Machet)
Date: Sun, 1 Nov 2015 15:18:04 +0200
Subject: The BlackList
In-Reply-To: <5635EF05.3030709@openmailbox.org>
References: <563552F7.7000103@openmailbox.org>
 <1618172215.394932.1446357637717.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com>
 <5635EF05.3030709@openmailbox.org>
Message-ID: <CAGRDzQXHgNgQR358jHreMYj2tH_A2zX_fjQJF7NwVYReANTnGQ@mail.gmail.com>

also the dude is just replacing the state with capitalism and anarcho
capitalism is bullshit anarchy is against any that is any any any structure
impossing its structure on the people and fucking capitalism is a structure
so anarco capitalists should rename themselves

the dude talks about that the community the community would not allow this
or that if someone stole your tv the community would not allow you to just
go in the dudes hut and take it back - you need an intermediary ... but
this is monolithic thinking ... which is a pit in theories ... they
strangle themselves with coffinesque solutions instead of being base theory

++++++++++

so fucking blackwater has been doing this shit for a while now ... gun for
hire and what i am not reading here is any consciousness that the
murder/war zone is a fucking hopped up place the people that perform these
actions are getting off on

https://youtu.be/zm5E10EhSp0?t=16m45s

i found the place for you where he says combat is like no other drug jim so
you dont have to listen to everything

so some people get off on the murder

but we have to already know that

the idea behind dropping the bombs on japan was like this deterrent or that
is what generally american people think anyway ... the japanese would not
give an unconditional surrender yet they had surrendered

all these mass murder desires need to be shifted out as i think they are
strong entities in and of themselves apart from money the psyche is
straight up blood lust blood thirsty fucks ... why we have blood thirsty
fucks everywhere ??? why do people get off on murder/war like it is a drug
? until these mindsets are twisted out of themselves and drained of energy
clear theory of crowd sourced assassination for deterrent cannot fully
work... if it was like one or two crazy fucks that desired combat and
murder to get off then that would be one thing but this is like a lot of
fucks and even the fucking american psyche associations enjoy hurting
people

there are many fronts to work on all at the same time to shift out of all
of this

On Sun, Nov 1, 2015 at 12:52 PM, intelemetry <intelemetry at openmailbox.org>
wrote:

> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
> Hash: SHA512
>
> jim bell:
> > From: intelemetry <intelemetry at openmailbox.org>
> >
> >> This video might help set the context:
> >> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V0_Jd_MzGCw 'The Market for
> >> Security | Robert P. Murphy '
> >
> > - - Intelemetry
> >
> > I will explain to you why selecting Murphy to support any arguments
> > you have is misguided.   Here is a paragraph from his essay, itself
> > a response to his business partner, Robert Vroman, at:
> > https://web.archive.org/web/20060208094246/http://www.anti-state.com/m
> urphy/murphy17.html
> > I will first quote the whole paragraph, and then address it
> > inline: "Simply put, I don't think Vroman or Bell realize just how
> > nutty and horrible the AP idea seems to the average American.
> > Especially if the government institutes a standing penalty of, say,
> > a mandatory twenty-five years for placing an AP donation, I don't
> > think we will have the millions of small donations that AP
> > requires. The situation would be a prisoner's dilemma: No
> > individual donation of $10 or even $100 is going to make the
> > difference between a target being killed or not, and so there would
> > be no reason for the average person to use AP. The fact that the
> > donations could be made "safely" is not enough; the government
> > would surely institute eavesdropping measures and would punish
> > anyone who even visited AP sites.
>
> I selected Murphy because you mentioned Friedman's hard problem of
> privatizing defense without the presence of state actors. Your
> solution is crowdfunding assassinations of anybody who is unpopular.
> This does fit within the paradigm of Friedman's approach.
>
> I would argue that Murphy's approach of collectives banding together
> and entering into private arbitration agreements with private defense
> contractors is more reasonable in preserving liberty and security. By
> entering into said private arbitration agreement with a private
> defense force, you also have aspects of private jurisprudence. The
> arbitration clause can have stipulations for certain scenarios and how
> they are dealt with (e.g., trials, fines, etc).
>
> Democracy is the tyranny of the majority, and assassination politics
> is dangerous in that regard when they are coupled. Private arbitration
> agreements with private security forces wherein mobility has
> reciprocal agreements (similar to current travel) seems more reasonable.
>
> I would suggest you consider the countereconomics work of SEK (e.g.
> agorism) and Vaclav Benda. Benda is an interesting case because he did
> his work on parallel structures while under the Soviet Union.
>
> The conclusion was that -- in the presence of an oppressive state -- a
> robust solution was an overlay of private and hidden societies as
> opposed to direct overt warfare with the state.
>
> > My replies inline: Simply put, I don't think Vroman or Bell realize
> > just how nutty and horrible the AP idea seems to the average
> > American. I should point out why I view Murphy's comment as being
> > wacky, in itself.  The "average American" is fairly familiar with
> > the deficiencies of the world's status quo.
>
> I think your assumptions regarding the average American are wrong, but
> that is my opinion. Don't underestimate the power of memetic warfare,
> neurolinguistic programming, and general propaganda.
>
>  But he may not be aware that it has been estimated that in the 20th
> century, about 250 million people DIED, killed by the actions of
> governments.
> http://www.evil.news/2015-10-07-national-governments-murdered-262-millio
> n-people-over-the-last-century.html
>    Does Murphy impllicitly or explicitly say that is somehow "okay"?
> I very much doubt he'd say that was acceptable, and he probably
> couldn't argue much with the numbers themselves.  But suppose those
> "average Americans" were FIRST fully informed of this fact, even
> simply as an estimate.  THEN, suppose it was explained to him HOW a
> functioning AP system wouldn't allow that to happen, if necessary by
> killing whatever number of government employees were necessary to stop
> this, the "Democide".   If those "average Americans" were reminded
> that the death of a government employee is no more unfortunate than
> the death of ordinary citizens, then wouldn't it be reasonable to
> conclude that to save 250 million ordinary citizens, it would
> certainly be acceptable to kill 25 million government employees, and
> certainly 2.5 million government employees?
> > The "average American" has been aware, during and since the 1960's,
> > that the citizens of many major governments have been under a
> > nuclear terror.  Now, it seems, we simply accept it as it is a
> > reality.  As shocking as that may see, perhaps it's made more
> > understandable by the fact that there has not seemed to be anything
> > we can do about it. Suppose, then, these "average Americans" were
> > told that a functioning AP system would make any nation's holding
> > of nuclear weapons absolutely impossible:  They are in the control
> > of SOMEONE, or maybe hundreds and thousands of someones, and such
> > people can be targeted by AP until those weapons are finally shut
> > down, and dismantled, and permanently rendered safe.  As many
> > government employees could be killed until that occurs.  No limit
> > whatsoever. So, where does Bob Murphy get off saying that the
> > "Average American" would find AP "nutty and horrible"?  I say, to
> > the contrary, that a _well-informed_ "average American", informed
> > of what I say AP could accomplish, would find Murphy himself and
> > his arguments "nutty and horrible".  Why should the citizens of the
> > world tolerate the killing of 250 million more people by
> > governments, beyond the 20th Century's toll?  Why should the
> > citizens of the world tolerate continuing to be held as nuclear
> > hostages, targets of 2000 nuclear bombs, just to keep a few
> > governments in power?  Clearly, Murphy views the world's citizens'
> > "natural state" to being owned and held hostage by governments, and
> > certainly not the opposite!
> >
> > " Especially if the government institutes a standing penalty of,
> > say, a mandatory twenty-five years for placing an AP donation, I
> > don't think we will have the millions of small donations that AP
> > requires. The situation would be a prisoner's dilemma: No
> > individual donation of $10 or even $100 is going to make the
> > difference between a target being killed or not, and so there would
> > be no reason for the average person to use AP. The fact that the
> > donations could be made "safely" is not enough; the government
> > would surely institute eavesdropping measures and would punish
> > anyone who even visited AP sites."
> >
> > Murphy, here, is beginning to show his 'inner paranoid'.  "They
> > would never let us do it!!!"Which, is one reasons we MUST do it.
> > I would say, to the contrary of what he said, that if "they", the
> > governments, don't want us to do something SO MUCH, then that's all
> > the more reason we should disregard those governments' official
> > desires.                    Jim Bell
> >
>
> There are arguably technical countermeasures to his argument. E.g. PoC:
>
> https://github.com/Miserlou/HitStarter
>
> ^^ you might get a kick out of that ^^
>
> >
> >
> >
> >
> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
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> =KPje
> -----END PGP SIGNATURE-----
>



-- 
Cari Machet
NYC 646-436-7795
carimachet at gmail.com
AIM carismachet
Syria +963-099 277 3243
Amman +962 077 636 9407
Berlin +49 152 11779219
Reykjavik +354 894 8650
Twitter: @carimachet <https://twitter.com/carimachet>

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From carimachet at gmail.com  Sun Nov  1 05:22:21 2015
From: carimachet at gmail.com (Cari Machet)
Date: Sun, 1 Nov 2015 15:22:21 +0200
Subject: The BlackList
In-Reply-To: <CAGRDzQXHgNgQR358jHreMYj2tH_A2zX_fjQJF7NwVYReANTnGQ@mail.gmail.com>
References: <563552F7.7000103@openmailbox.org>
 <1618172215.394932.1446357637717.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com>
 <5635EF05.3030709@openmailbox.org>
 <CAGRDzQXHgNgQR358jHreMYj2tH_A2zX_fjQJF7NwVYReANTnGQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAGRDzQUqkrOcArQSC_rjY-iBzFhHB29hhAHsA0-1YfmXkfccgw@mail.gmail.com>

sorry the video is of a friend of michael hastings that is a real person
and talks about murder/war shit in the real

he was in afghanistan with michael i think


On Sun, Nov 1, 2015 at 3:18 PM, Cari Machet <carimachet at gmail.com> wrote:

> also the dude is just replacing the state with capitalism and anarcho
> capitalism is bullshit anarchy is against any that is any any any structure
> impossing its structure on the people and fucking capitalism is a structure
> so anarco capitalists should rename themselves
>
> the dude talks about that the community the community would not allow this
> or that if someone stole your tv the community would not allow you to just
> go in the dudes hut and take it back - you need an intermediary ... but
> this is monolithic thinking ... which is a pit in theories ... they
> strangle themselves with coffinesque solutions instead of being base theory
>
> ++++++++++
>
> so fucking blackwater has been doing this shit for a while now ... gun for
> hire and what i am not reading here is any consciousness that the
> murder/war zone is a fucking hopped up place the people that perform these
> actions are getting off on
>
> https://youtu.be/zm5E10EhSp0?t=16m45s
>
> i found the place for you where he says combat is like no other drug jim
> so you dont have to listen to everything
>
> so some people get off on the murder
>
> but we have to already know that
>
> the idea behind dropping the bombs on japan was like this deterrent or
> that is what generally american people think anyway ... the japanese would
> not give an unconditional surrender yet they had surrendered
>
> all these mass murder desires need to be shifted out as i think they are
> strong entities in and of themselves apart from money the psyche is
> straight up blood lust blood thirsty fucks ... why we have blood thirsty
> fucks everywhere ??? why do people get off on murder/war like it is a drug
> ? until these mindsets are twisted out of themselves and drained of energy
> clear theory of crowd sourced assassination for deterrent cannot fully
> work... if it was like one or two crazy fucks that desired combat and
> murder to get off then that would be one thing but this is like a lot of
> fucks and even the fucking american psyche associations enjoy hurting
> people
>
> there are many fronts to work on all at the same time to shift out of all
> of this
>
> On Sun, Nov 1, 2015 at 12:52 PM, intelemetry <intelemetry at openmailbox.org>
> wrote:
>
>> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
>> Hash: SHA512
>>
>> jim bell:
>> > From: intelemetry <intelemetry at openmailbox.org>
>> >
>> >> This video might help set the context:
>> >> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V0_Jd_MzGCw 'The Market for
>> >> Security | Robert P. Murphy '
>> >
>> > - - Intelemetry
>> >
>> > I will explain to you why selecting Murphy to support any arguments
>> > you have is misguided.   Here is a paragraph from his essay, itself
>> > a response to his business partner, Robert Vroman, at:
>> > https://web.archive.org/web/20060208094246/http://www.anti-state.com/m
>> urphy/murphy17.html
>> <http://t.sidekickopen27.com/e1t/c/5/f18dQhb0S7lC8dDMPbW2n0x6l2B9nMJW7t5XZs1qg55-N5w02yWRbBJdW8q-c7s56dVZzf3drS6C02?t=https%3A%2F%2Fweb.archive.org%2Fweb%2F20060208094246%2Fhttp%3A%2F%2Fwww.anti-state.com%2Fmurphy%2Fmurphy17.html&si=5459291358625792&pi=f7347b6f-ecd9-48e6-c7d8-d6f5296ee855>
>> > I will first quote the whole paragraph, and then address it
>> > inline: "Simply put, I don't think Vroman or Bell realize just how
>> > nutty and horrible the AP idea seems to the average American.
>> > Especially if the government institutes a standing penalty of, say,
>> > a mandatory twenty-five years for placing an AP donation, I don't
>> > think we will have the millions of small donations that AP
>> > requires. The situation would be a prisoner's dilemma: No
>> > individual donation of $10 or even $100 is going to make the
>> > difference between a target being killed or not, and so there would
>> > be no reason for the average person to use AP. The fact that the
>> > donations could be made "safely" is not enough; the government
>> > would surely institute eavesdropping measures and would punish
>> > anyone who even visited AP sites.
>>
>> I selected Murphy because you mentioned Friedman's hard problem of
>> privatizing defense without the presence of state actors. Your
>> solution is crowdfunding assassinations of anybody who is unpopular.
>> This does fit within the paradigm of Friedman's approach.
>>
>> I would argue that Murphy's approach of collectives banding together
>> and entering into private arbitration agreements with private defense
>> contractors is more reasonable in preserving liberty and security. By
>> entering into said private arbitration agreement with a private
>> defense force, you also have aspects of private jurisprudence. The
>> arbitration clause can have stipulations for certain scenarios and how
>> they are dealt with (e.g., trials, fines, etc).
>>
>> Democracy is the tyranny of the majority, and assassination politics
>> is dangerous in that regard when they are coupled. Private arbitration
>> agreements with private security forces wherein mobility has
>> reciprocal agreements (similar to current travel) seems more reasonable.
>>
>> I would suggest you consider the countereconomics work of SEK (e.g.
>> agorism) and Vaclav Benda. Benda is an interesting case because he did
>> his work on parallel structures while under the Soviet Union.
>>
>> The conclusion was that -- in the presence of an oppressive state -- a
>> robust solution was an overlay of private and hidden societies as
>> opposed to direct overt warfare with the state.
>>
>> > My replies inline: Simply put, I don't think Vroman or Bell realize
>> > just how nutty and horrible the AP idea seems to the average
>> > American. I should point out why I view Murphy's comment as being
>> > wacky, in itself.  The "average American" is fairly familiar with
>> > the deficiencies of the world's status quo.
>>
>> I think your assumptions regarding the average American are wrong, but
>> that is my opinion. Don't underestimate the power of memetic warfare,
>> neurolinguistic programming, and general propaganda.
>>
>>  But he may not be aware that it has been estimated that in the 20th
>> century, about 250 million people DIED, killed by the actions of
>> governments.
>> http://www.evil.news/2015-10-07-national-governments-murdered-262-millio
>> n-people-over-the-last-century.html
>> <http://t.sidekickopen27.com/e1t/c/5/f18dQhb0S7lC8dDMPbW2n0x6l2B9nMJW7t5XZs1qg55-N5w02yWRbBJdW8q-c7s56dVZzf3drS6C02?t=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.evil.news%2F2015-10-07-national-governments-murdered-262-million-people-over-the-last-century.html&si=5459291358625792&pi=f7347b6f-ecd9-48e6-c7d8-d6f5296ee855>
>>    Does Murphy impllicitly or explicitly say that is somehow "okay"?
>> I very much doubt he'd say that was acceptable, and he probably
>> couldn't argue much with the numbers themselves.  But suppose those
>> "average Americans" were FIRST fully informed of this fact, even
>> simply as an estimate.  THEN, suppose it was explained to him HOW a
>> functioning AP system wouldn't allow that to happen, if necessary by
>> killing whatever number of government employees were necessary to stop
>> this, the "Democide".   If those "average Americans" were reminded
>> that the death of a government employee is no more unfortunate than
>> the death of ordinary citizens, then wouldn't it be reasonable to
>> conclude that to save 250 million ordinary citizens, it would
>> certainly be acceptable to kill 25 million government employees, and
>> certainly 2.5 million government employees?
>> > The "average American" has been aware, during and since the 1960's,
>> > that the citizens of many major governments have been under a
>> > nuclear terror.  Now, it seems, we simply accept it as it is a
>> > reality.  As shocking as that may see, perhaps it's made more
>> > understandable by the fact that there has not seemed to be anything
>> > we can do about it. Suppose, then, these "average Americans" were
>> > told that a functioning AP system would make any nation's holding
>> > of nuclear weapons absolutely impossible:  They are in the control
>> > of SOMEONE, or maybe hundreds and thousands of someones, and such
>> > people can be targeted by AP until those weapons are finally shut
>> > down, and dismantled, and permanently rendered safe.  As many
>> > government employees could be killed until that occurs.  No limit
>> > whatsoever. So, where does Bob Murphy get off saying that the
>> > "Average American" would find AP "nutty and horrible"?  I say, to
>> > the contrary, that a _well-informed_ "average American", informed
>> > of what I say AP could accomplish, would find Murphy himself and
>> > his arguments "nutty and horrible".  Why should the citizens of the
>> > world tolerate the killing of 250 million more people by
>> > governments, beyond the 20th Century's toll?  Why should the
>> > citizens of the world tolerate continuing to be held as nuclear
>> > hostages, targets of 2000 nuclear bombs, just to keep a few
>> > governments in power?  Clearly, Murphy views the world's citizens'
>> > "natural state" to being owned and held hostage by governments, and
>> > certainly not the opposite!
>> >
>> > " Especially if the government institutes a standing penalty of,
>> > say, a mandatory twenty-five years for placing an AP donation, I
>> > don't think we will have the millions of small donations that AP
>> > requires. The situation would be a prisoner's dilemma: No
>> > individual donation of $10 or even $100 is going to make the
>> > difference between a target being killed or not, and so there would
>> > be no reason for the average person to use AP. The fact that the
>> > donations could be made "safely" is not enough; the government
>> > would surely institute eavesdropping measures and would punish
>> > anyone who even visited AP sites."
>> >
>> > Murphy, here, is beginning to show his 'inner paranoid'.  "They
>> > would never let us do it!!!"Which, is one reasons we MUST do it.
>> > I would say, to the contrary of what he said, that if "they", the
>> > governments, don't want us to do something SO MUCH, then that's all
>> > the more reason we should disregard those governments' official
>> > desires.                    Jim Bell
>> >
>>
>> There are arguably technical countermeasures to his argument. E.g. PoC:
>>
>> https://github.com/Miserlou/HitStarter
>>
>> ^^ you might get a kick out of that ^^
>>
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
>>
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>> IIAIVAbGBtWdNJPzMqRHFzzZPHPLk3Zbc4gV47iYhw/zBELXS7emIw1QGf9kkTKR
>> ITrGXWmvmKNK87XIkyJJqT3+/hG38D3wOH8PpcE5fw==
>> =KPje
>> -----END PGP SIGNATURE-----
>>
>
>
>
> --
> Cari Machet
> NYC 646-436-7795
> carimachet at gmail.com
> AIM carismachet
> Syria +963-099 277 3243
> Amman +962 077 636 9407
> Berlin +49 152 11779219
> Reykjavik +354 894 8650
> Twitter: @carimachet <https://twitter.com/carimachet>
>
> 7035 690E 5E47 41D4 B0E5 B3D1 AF90 49D6 BE09 2187
>
> Ruh-roh, this is now necessary: This email is intended only for the
> addressee(s) and may contain confidential information. If you are not the
> intended recipient, you are hereby notified that any use of this
> information, dissemination, distribution, or copying of this email without
> permission is strictly prohibited.
>
>
>


-- 
Cari Machet
NYC 646-436-7795
carimachet at gmail.com
AIM carismachet
Syria +963-099 277 3243
Amman +962 077 636 9407
Berlin +49 152 11779219
Reykjavik +354 894 8650
Twitter: @carimachet <https://twitter.com/carimachet>

7035 690E 5E47 41D4 B0E5 B3D1 AF90 49D6 BE09 2187

Ruh-roh, this is now necessary: This email is intended only for the
addressee(s) and may contain confidential information. If you are not the
intended recipient, you are hereby notified that any use of this
information, dissemination, distribution, or copying of this email without
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From jya at pipeline.com  Sun Nov  1 12:38:37 2015
From: jya at pipeline.com (John Young)
Date: Sun, 01 Nov 2015 15:38:37 -0500
Subject: The United States of Air (novel) free ebook
In-Reply-To: <20151101194527.GD1702@fedora-21-dvm>
References: <CANFTA08bjQimHDM9wDa0-P-Zffn25aBh0zaTFF_TxdHrinEmrw@mail.gmail.com>
 <20151101142117.GC1760@fedora-21-dvm>
 <CAD2Ti296pZaNOvxrtfaUte2rGNGv2Ms_HAweLBbdR=xs2D0+BQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <20151101194527.GD1702@fedora-21-dvm>
Message-ID: <E1ZszMX-0005Hs-BJ@elasmtp-spurfowl.atl.sa.earthlink.net>

The Covert Comic, long online (covertcomic.com), suggests
the need for an IC Comic, if for no other reason than to ridicule
those who claim urgent need to castigate the IC, a noble
consortium of 13 or more agencies of a classified number
of dedicated secretkeepers working tirelessly to protect
citizens of the United States of America from knowing what
the IC and its ever growing number of overseers, contractors,
universities, consultants, free-lancers and carefully coddled,
groomed and briefed media reps like those exploiting Edward
Snowden and the increasing gaggle of forever gagged
whistleblowers and ex-spies, actually do, not just the
glamorized spillage.

Spying is funny, peculiar, odd, insane, vain, treacherous, vicious,
all too human comedic.




At 02:45 PM 11/1/2015, you wrote:
>On Sun, Nov 01, 2015 at 02:41:11PM -0500, grarpamp wrote:
> > On Sun, Nov 1, 2015 at 9:21 AM, J.M. Porup <jm at porup.com> wrote:
> > > The United States of Air is a satire that makes fun of mass
> > > surveillance and the NSA.
> >
> > Surveillance isn't funny.
> > It takes legendary comedic talent to acknowledge that and drive it home,
> > everything else are humor-ops attempting to pass it off as non-serious.
> > Hundreds of channels, filled with ops. Where's the signal (beef)?
>
>I agree.
>
>Maybe read the book before you judge it?
>
>Jens
>
> > > https://github.com/toholdaquill/united-states-of-air
> > > http://podiobooks.com/title/the-united-states-of-air-a-satire/





From coderman at gmail.com  Sun Nov  1 16:41:27 2015
From: coderman at gmail.com (coderman)
Date: Sun, 1 Nov 2015 16:41:27 -0800
Subject: DJB: Advanced Code-based Cryptography
Message-ID: <CAJVRA1TUe=70khe-FfJAHnL7JOP=a-MYB_EuiGRD7cPfH7ZcMw@mail.gmail.com>

http://cr.yp.to/talks/2015.06.05/slides-djb-20150605-a4.pdf

no TXT auto-conversion as the graphics make this less useful.




From carimachet at gmail.com  Sun Nov  1 06:46:50 2015
From: carimachet at gmail.com (Cari Machet)
Date: Sun, 1 Nov 2015 16:46:50 +0200
Subject: The BlackList
In-Reply-To: <56361345.4040905@openmailbox.org>
References: <563552F7.7000103@openmailbox.org>
 <1618172215.394932.1446357637717.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com>
 <5635EF05.3030709@openmailbox.org>
 <CAGRDzQXHgNgQR358jHreMYj2tH_A2zX_fjQJF7NwVYReANTnGQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <56361345.4040905@openmailbox.org>
Message-ID: <CAGRDzQXUCjDObF3JYfPUn-h8ew0omebSWh5yzJqUYckLdD1Bag@mail.gmail.com>

protection of community is a different mindset but yay you can have the
blood thirsty murder lover fucker there too of course

state dont like check points by community ... UK use to do shootings at
community checkpoints and pretend they were a protestant or vis versa a
catholic just to fuck with the community security effect

all of this points to why i think there needs to be many theories developed
around solution in all sectors of society not just one base theory to solve
one issue then we are all good and we live in nirvana.... work on
everything you can all the time

work on mindset ... so restorative justice is like that it tears at the
underlying mindset of getting off on murder and blood lust... mediation
shit ...calling out people that take power instead of standing there mouth
open drooling

this is being taught now in primary schools

On Sun, Nov 1, 2015 at 3:27 PM, intelemetry <intelemetry at openmailbox.org>
wrote:

> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
> Hash: SHA512
>
> Cari Machet:
> > also the dude is just replacing the state with capitalism and
> > anarcho capitalism is bullshit anarchy is against any that is any
> > any any structure impossing its structure on the people and fucking
> > capitalism is a structure so anarco capitalists should rename
> > themselves
> >
> > the dude talks about that the community the community would not
> > allow this or that if someone stole your tv the community would not
> > allow you to just go in the dudes hut and take it back - you need
> > an intermediary ... but this is monolithic thinking ... which is a
> > pit in theories ... they strangle themselves with coffinesque
> > solutions instead of being base theory
> >
> > ++++++++++
> >
> > so fucking blackwater has been doing this shit for a while now ...
> > gun for hire and what i am not reading here is any consciousness
> > that the murder/war zone is a fucking hopped up place the people
> > that perform these actions are getting off on
>
> There are many private mercenaries that don't work for a state.
> Organized crime and corporations use private security forces. In fact,
> in situations where there is a state but law enforcement does not
> exist gangs effectively perform this function. You adhere to a group
> wherein your membership is an arbitration agreement that includes
> protection in exchange for whatever it is you must do.
>
> In certain ethnic areas private law enforcement is carried out on an
> ad-hoc, hierarchical community level wherein citizens don't trust the
> police (e.g. "illegal" immigrant enclaves). This is not too far from a
> privatization of defense.
>
> >
> > https://youtu.be/zm5E10EhSp0?t=16m45s
> >
> > i found the place for you where he says combat is like no other
> > drug jim so you dont have to listen to everything
> >
> > so some people get off on the murder
> >
> > but we have to already know that
> >
> > the idea behind dropping the bombs on japan was like this deterrent
> > or that is what generally american people think anyway ... the
> > japanese would not give an unconditional surrender yet they had
> > surrendered
> >
> > all these mass murder desires need to be shifted out as i think
> > they are strong entities in and of themselves apart from money the
> > psyche is straight up blood lust blood thirsty fucks ... why we
> > have blood thirsty fucks everywhere ??? why do people get off on
> > murder/war like it is a drug ? until these mindsets are twisted out
> > of themselves and drained of energy clear theory of crowd sourced
> > assassination for deterrent cannot fully work... if it was like one
> > or two crazy fucks that desired combat and murder to get off then
> > that would be one thing but this is like a lot of fucks and even
> > the fucking american psyche associations enjoy hurting people
> >
> > there are many fronts to work on all at the same time to shift out
> > of all of this
> >
> > On Sun, Nov 1, 2015 at 12:52 PM, intelemetry
> > <intelemetry at openmailbox.org> wrote:
> >
> > jim bell:
> >>>> From: intelemetry <intelemetry at openmailbox.org>
> >>>>
> >>>>> This video might help set the context:
> >>>>> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V0_Jd_MzGCw 'The Market
> >>>>> for Security | Robert P. Murphy '
> >>>>
> >>>> - - Intelemetry
> >>>>
> >>>> I will explain to you why selecting Murphy to support any
> >>>> arguments you have is misguided.   Here is a paragraph from
> >>>> his essay, itself a response to his business partner, Robert
> >>>> Vroman, at:
> >>>> https://web.archive.org/web/20060208094246/http://www.anti-state.co
> m/m
> >
> >>>>
> urphy/murphy17.html
> >>>> I will first quote the whole paragraph, and then address it
> >>>> inline: "Simply put, I don't think Vroman or Bell realize
> >>>> just how nutty and horrible the AP idea seems to the average
> >>>> American. Especially if the government institutes a standing
> >>>> penalty of, say, a mandatory twenty-five years for placing an
> >>>> AP donation, I don't think we will have the millions of small
> >>>> donations that AP requires. The situation would be a
> >>>> prisoner's dilemma: No individual donation of $10 or even
> >>>> $100 is going to make the difference between a target being
> >>>> killed or not, and so there would be no reason for the
> >>>> average person to use AP. The fact that the donations could
> >>>> be made "safely" is not enough; the government would surely
> >>>> institute eavesdropping measures and would punish anyone who
> >>>> even visited AP sites.
> >
> > I selected Murphy because you mentioned Friedman's hard problem of
> > privatizing defense without the presence of state actors. Your
> > solution is crowdfunding assassinations of anybody who is
> > unpopular. This does fit within the paradigm of Friedman's
> > approach.
> >
> > I would argue that Murphy's approach of collectives banding
> > together and entering into private arbitration agreements with
> > private defense contractors is more reasonable in preserving
> > liberty and security. By entering into said private arbitration
> > agreement with a private defense force, you also have aspects of
> > private jurisprudence. The arbitration clause can have stipulations
> > for certain scenarios and how they are dealt with (e.g., trials,
> > fines, etc).
> >
> > Democracy is the tyranny of the majority, and assassination
> > politics is dangerous in that regard when they are coupled. Private
> > arbitration agreements with private security forces wherein
> > mobility has reciprocal agreements (similar to current travel)
> > seems more reasonable.
> >
> > I would suggest you consider the countereconomics work of SEK
> > (e.g. agorism) and Vaclav Benda. Benda is an interesting case
> > because he did his work on parallel structures while under the
> > Soviet Union.
> >
> > The conclusion was that -- in the presence of an oppressive state
> > -- a robust solution was an overlay of private and hidden societies
> > as opposed to direct overt warfare with the state.
> >
> >>>> My replies inline: Simply put, I don't think Vroman or Bell
> >>>> realize just how nutty and horrible the AP idea seems to the
> >>>> average American. I should point out why I view Murphy's
> >>>> comment as being wacky, in itself.  The "average American" is
> >>>> fairly familiar with the deficiencies of the world's status
> >>>> quo.
> >
> > I think your assumptions regarding the average American are wrong,
> > but that is my opinion. Don't underestimate the power of memetic
> > warfare, neurolinguistic programming, and general propaganda.
> >
> > But he may not be aware that it has been estimated that in the
> > 20th century, about 250 million people DIED, killed by the actions
> > of governments.
> > http://www.evil.news/2015-10-07-national-governments-murdered-262-mill
> io
> >
> >
> n-people-over-the-last-century.html
> > Does Murphy impllicitly or explicitly say that is somehow "okay"? I
> > very much doubt he'd say that was acceptable, and he probably
> > couldn't argue much with the numbers themselves.  But suppose
> > those "average Americans" were FIRST fully informed of this fact,
> > even simply as an estimate.  THEN, suppose it was explained to him
> > HOW a functioning AP system wouldn't allow that to happen, if
> > necessary by killing whatever number of government employees were
> > necessary to stop this, the "Democide".   If those "average
> > Americans" were reminded that the death of a government employee is
> > no more unfortunate than the death of ordinary citizens, then
> > wouldn't it be reasonable to conclude that to save 250 million
> > ordinary citizens, it would certainly be acceptable to kill 25
> > million government employees, and certainly 2.5 million government
> > employees?
> >>>> The "average American" has been aware, during and since the
> >>>> 1960's, that the citizens of many major governments have been
> >>>> under a nuclear terror.  Now, it seems, we simply accept it
> >>>> as it is a reality.  As shocking as that may see, perhaps
> >>>> it's made more understandable by the fact that there has not
> >>>> seemed to be anything we can do about it. Suppose, then,
> >>>> these "average Americans" were told that a functioning AP
> >>>> system would make any nation's holding of nuclear weapons
> >>>> absolutely impossible:  They are in the control of SOMEONE,
> >>>> or maybe hundreds and thousands of someones, and such people
> >>>> can be targeted by AP until those weapons are finally shut
> >>>> down, and dismantled, and permanently rendered safe.  As
> >>>> many government employees could be killed until that occurs.
> >>>> No limit whatsoever. So, where does Bob Murphy get off saying
> >>>> that the "Average American" would find AP "nutty and
> >>>> horrible"?  I say, to the contrary, that a _well-informed_
> >>>> "average American", informed of what I say AP could
> >>>> accomplish, would find Murphy himself and his arguments
> >>>> "nutty and horrible".  Why should the citizens of the world
> >>>> tolerate the killing of 250 million more people by
> >>>> governments, beyond the 20th Century's toll?  Why should the
> >>>> citizens of the world tolerate continuing to be held as
> >>>> nuclear hostages, targets of 2000 nuclear bombs, just to keep
> >>>> a few governments in power?  Clearly, Murphy views the
> >>>> world's citizens' "natural state" to being owned and held
> >>>> hostage by governments, and certainly not the opposite!
> >>>>
> >>>> " Especially if the government institutes a standing penalty
> >>>> of, say, a mandatory twenty-five years for placing an AP
> >>>> donation, I don't think we will have the millions of small
> >>>> donations that AP requires. The situation would be a
> >>>> prisoner's dilemma: No individual donation of $10 or even
> >>>> $100 is going to make the difference between a target being
> >>>> killed or not, and so there would be no reason for the
> >>>> average person to use AP. The fact that the donations could
> >>>> be made "safely" is not enough; the government would surely
> >>>> institute eavesdropping measures and would punish anyone who
> >>>> even visited AP sites."
> >>>>
> >>>> Murphy, here, is beginning to show his 'inner paranoid'.
> >>>> "They would never let us do it!!!"Which, is one reasons we
> >>>> MUST do it. I would say, to the contrary of what he said,
> >>>> that if "they", the governments, don't want us to do
> >>>> something SO MUCH, then that's all the more reason we should
> >>>> disregard those governments' official desires.
> >>>> Jim Bell
> >>>>
> >
> > There are arguably technical countermeasures to his argument. E.g.
> > PoC:
> >
> > https://github.com/Miserlou/HitStarter
> >
> > ^^ you might get a kick out of that ^^
> >
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>
> >
> >
> >
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>



-- 
Cari Machet
NYC 646-436-7795
carimachet at gmail.com
AIM carismachet
Syria +963-099 277 3243
Amman +962 077 636 9407
Berlin +49 152 11779219
Reykjavik +354 894 8650
Twitter: @carimachet <https://twitter.com/carimachet>

7035 690E 5E47 41D4 B0E5 B3D1 AF90 49D6 BE09 2187

Ruh-roh, this is now necessary: This email is intended only for the
addressee(s) and may contain confidential information. If you are not the
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From juan.g71 at gmail.com  Sun Nov  1 12:10:10 2015
From: juan.g71 at gmail.com (Juan)
Date: Sun, 1 Nov 2015 17:10:10 -0300
Subject: The BlackList
In-Reply-To: <935312752.388847.1446365520386.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com>
References: <5635b6e3.0e138c0a.148ca.ffffc02f@mx.google.com>
 <935312752.388847.1446365520386.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <5636700f.471c8d0a.3cebe.fffff425@mx.google.com>

On Sun, 1 Nov 2015 08:12:00 +0000 (UTC)
jim bell <jdb10987 at yahoo.com> wrote:


> 
> >    Now, that *might* work for relatively easy targets. Say,
>  >   ordinary cops and soldiers. But what if some more important
>  >   targets, say a couple of pentagon's 'generals' end up on the
>  >   list? Who's going to finish them off?

> Even most of the very important targets are probably not very well
> protected, 24 hours per day.  But if they are inaccessible, their
> employees could be targeted as well.  

	Yes, but for what purpose? It wouldn't have the same effect as
	targeting the important people? 


> And their employees will have
> access to them.

	And they would betray their bosses? 


> > And what is the contractor
> >    going to do with his money once the job is done? Deposit it on a
> >     numbered account in switzerland? Buy an island? Donate it
> >    to charity? Or?

> Whatever he wants to do with it!   It's his money, of course.

	Well, yes =P - But what I was getting at is that it may be
	difficult or impossible for the guy to spend his money. 

	Maybe it would be easy to 'launder' the money. Or maybe not.
	Given the current surveillance trends I think the second
	possibility is more likely possibility. 


>    Jim Bell 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
>   





From juan.g71 at gmail.com  Sun Nov  1 12:52:17 2015
From: juan.g71 at gmail.com (Juan)
Date: Sun, 1 Nov 2015 17:52:17 -0300
Subject: The BlackList
In-Reply-To: <CAJVRA1StNCiLmupBJ9FvB-j9Sybcv3rDEBLyrTrQzSou5=GfHw@mail.gmail.com>
References: <563552F7.7000103@openmailbox.org>
 <1618172215.394932.1446357637717.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com>
 <5635b6e3.0e138c0a.148ca.ffffc02f@mx.google.com>
 <CAJVRA1TaCAX_oYkHmFEDCj+Evj8C_-_vnOZaVq_f6DD7+J01iA@mail.gmail.com>
 <5635be08.53528c0a.6a953.ffffc32a@mx.google.com>
 <CAJVRA1Tj_0Q9jaLMKXzkgEe5TaQz_K1=X4e6MJkh36k1-06L8w@mail.gmail.com>
 <5635c7f4.c548370a.33e6a.10f6@mx.google.com>
 <CAJVRA1StNCiLmupBJ9FvB-j9Sybcv3rDEBLyrTrQzSou5=GfHw@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <563679ef.44e88c0a.4bc59.fffff577@mx.google.com>

On Sun, 1 Nov 2015 01:16:15 -0700
coderman <coderman at gmail.com> wrote:

> On 11/1/15, Juan <juan.g71 at gmail.com> wrote:
> > ...
> > 	It seems (kinda obvious) to me that to get rid of 'high
> > 	ranking' targets you need a 'professional' service, agree?
> 
> no, this is movie plot thinking.

	Ha. That's a funny remark because I was just thinking that AP
	does sound like literary fiction so far.


> 
> you need someone with access and opportunity.

	*And* willing to do it. See, two different things are
	getting mixed. 

	One thing is a market for hitmen who theoretically can kill any
	target (hollywood-like...). IF the hitmen exist, then in
	principle you can hire them and get the job done. 

	A rather different thing is the assumption that you can turn
	members of the official mafia into 'traitors' by offering them
	enough money. 

> 
> 
> 
> > 	You are saying that those targets will be taken down by
> > 	'traitors'? That can happen sometimes but I don't think it
> > 	would be common.
> 
> most traitors are traitors for money, not ideology.

	Evidence? Regardless, the issue is how many traitors you can
	buy. Even if 9 out of 10 do it for money, what matters is
	the absolute number of potential traitors, not the ratio. 

 
> 
> >       Also notice that 'traitors' a la snowden don't
> > 	do it for money. And he didn't kill anybody either (and
> > he's no anarchist anyway)
> 
> Snowden is not a typical traitor, as discussed.


	Right. And there isn't an AP system in place right now so I
	cant really compare. I take my mentioning him back.


> 
> 
> 
> > 	Yet you are saying that a 'modern', big, very well
> > 	funded government can be overthrown by buying off some of
> > its members with a few million dollars?
> 
> i don't think AP would destroy government - that's a separate
> question.
> 
> i do think AP would successfully murder even the most high profile
> targets, though.




From coderman at gmail.com  Sun Nov  1 18:09:02 2015
From: coderman at gmail.com (coderman)
Date: Sun, 1 Nov 2015 18:09:02 -0800
Subject: The BlackList
In-Reply-To: <5636C19D.5060801@riseup.net>
References: <563552F7.7000103@openmailbox.org>
 <1618172215.394932.1446357637717.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com>
 <5635b6e3.0e138c0a.148ca.ffffc02f@mx.google.com>
 <CAJVRA1TaCAX_oYkHmFEDCj+Evj8C_-_vnOZaVq_f6DD7+J01iA@mail.gmail.com>
 <5635be08.53528c0a.6a953.ffffc32a@mx.google.com>
 <CAJVRA1Tj_0Q9jaLMKXzkgEe5TaQz_K1=X4e6MJkh36k1-06L8w@mail.gmail.com>
 <5635c7f4.c548370a.33e6a.10f6@mx.google.com>
 <CAJVRA1StNCiLmupBJ9FvB-j9Sybcv3rDEBLyrTrQzSou5=GfHw@mail.gmail.com>
 <563679ef.44e88c0a.4bc59.fffff577@mx.google.com>
 <5636C19D.5060801@riseup.net>
Message-ID: <CAJVRA1RY0wPZRc66Et0B34i1J3F6FPj=ZONDY3p8xkc+V2immw@mail.gmail.com>

On 11/1/15, Mirimir <mirimir at riseup.net> wrote:
> ...
> I don't know whether AP would take down governments. Hell, I'm not even
> sure whether that would be prudent. But I am certain that many bidders
> would go down, through cluelessness or system compromise.

my bid for my own life went unfulfilled, sadly. :/
  https://blockchainbdgpzk.onion/tx/d4f89ca19c9ce0e9bcf1fc47d8223e4bee07ad269323faca68ae1113fa867d16
 / https://blockchainbdgpzk.onion/address/1P6yannm6Rx9kkMH5LxmAsi1GdZ4JZG73T
 [ death prediction lottery RIP vfwavrwava at yandex.com ]


ah well, maybe one day?




From intelemetry at openmailbox.org  Sun Nov  1 10:17:40 2015
From: intelemetry at openmailbox.org (intelemetry)
Date: Sun, 1 Nov 2015 18:17:40 +0000
Subject: information imbalance - The Rise of Plitical Doxing [ bonus
 points for contrast with AP! :]
In-Reply-To: <5635DB13.7040508@openmailbox.org>
References: <CAJVRA1QgvXG8R12s=M8avNe6sD9kx3pBTt0SRQ2TxcwSxQgybw@mail.gmail.com>
 <5635DB13.7040508@openmailbox.org>
Message-ID: <56365744.60709@openmailbox.org>

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA512

Where is the OPM link in .7z format?

- - intelemetry

oshwm:
> 
> 
> On 01/11/15 03:53, coderman wrote:
>> http://motherboard.vice.com/read/the-rise-of-political-doxing
>> 
>> Last week, CIA director John O. Brennan became the latest victim
>> of what's become a popular way to embarrass and harass people on
>> the internet. A hacker allegedly broke into his AOL account and
>> published emails and documents found inside, many of them
>> personal and sensitive.
>> 
>> It's called doxing—sometimes doxxing—from the word "documents."
>> It emerged in the 1990s as a hacker revenge tactic, and has since
>> been as a tool to harass and intimidate people on the internet.
>> Someone would threaten a woman with physical harm, or try to
>> incite others to harm her, and publish her personal information
>> as a way of saying "I know a lot about you—like where you live
>> and work." Victims of doxing talk about the fear that this tactic
>> instills. It's very effective, by which I mean that it's
>> horrible.
>> 
>> Brennan's doxing was slightly different. Here, the attacker had a
>> more political motive. He wasn't out to intimidate Brennan; he
>> simply wanted to embarrass him. His personal papers were dumped 
>> indiscriminately, fodder for an eager press. This doxing was a 
>> political act, and we're seeing this kind of thing more and
>> more.
>> 
>> Lots of people will have to face the publication of personal 
>> correspondence, documents, and information they would rather be 
>> private
>> 
>> Last year, the government of North Korea allegedly did this to
>> Sony. Hackers the FBI believes were working for North Korea broke
>> into the company's networks, stole a huge amount of corporate
>> data, and published it. This included unreleased movies,
>> financial information, company plans, and personal emails. The
>> reputational damage to the company was enormous; the company
>> estimated the cost at $41 million.
>> 
>> In July, hackers stole and published sensitive documents from
>> the cyberweapons arms manufacturer Hacking Team. That same
>> month, different hackers did the same thing to the infidelity
>> website Ashley Madison. In 2014, hackers broke into the iCloud
>> accounts of over 100 celebrities and published personal
>> photographs, most containing some nudity. In 2013, Edward Snowden
>> doxed the NSA.
>> 
>> These aren't the first instances of politically motivated doxing,
>> but there's a clear trend. As people realize what an effective
>> attack this can be, and how an individual can use the tactic to
>> do considerable damage to powerful people and institutions, we're
>> going to see a lot more of it.
>> 
>> On the internet, attack is easier than defense. We're living in
>> a world where a sufficiently skilled and motivated attacker will 
>> circumvent network security. Even worse, most internet security 
>> assumes it needs to defend against an opportunistic attacker who
>> will attack the weakest network in order to get—for example—a
>> pile of credit card numbers. The notion of a targeted attacker,
>> who wants Sony or Ashley Madison or John Brennan because of what
>> they stand for, is still new. And it's even harder to defend
>> against.
>> 
>> What this means is that we're going to see more political doxing
>> in the future, against both people and institutions. It's going
>> to be a factor in elections. It's going to be a factor in
>> anti-corporate activism. More people will find their personal
>> information exposed to the world: politicians, corporate
>> executives, celebrities, divisive and outspoken individuals.
>> 
>> Of course they won't all be doxed, but some of them will. Some of
>> them will be doxed directly, like Brennan. Some of them will be
>> inadvertent victims of a doxing attack aimed at a company where
>> their information is stored, like those celebrities with iPhone
>> accounts and every customer of Ashley Madison. Regardless of the
>> method, lots of people will have to face the publication of
>> personal correspondence, documents, and information they would
>> rather be private.
>> 
>> In the end, doxing is a tactic that the powerless can effectively
>> use against the powerful. It can be used for whistleblowing. It
>> can be used as a vehicle for social change. And it can be used to
>> embarrass, harass, and intimidate. Its popularity will rise and
>> fall on this effectiveness, especially in a world where
>> prosecuting the doxers is so difficult.
>> 
>> There's no good solution for this right now. We all have the
>> right to privacy, and we should be free from doxing. But we're
>> not, and those of us who are in the public eye have no choice but
>> to rethink our online data shadows.
>> 
> 
> Political figures in most countries have been using their personal
> email accounts to conduct business 'under the radar' in order to
> avoid information being subject to oversight, most probably because
> its illegal, unconstitutional or at the very least not good for the
> image of governments.
> 
> When they started to do this, they threw the book on ethics in the
> bin and opened themselves up to any abuse of their personal life
> that may happen.
> 
> If people in power act properly in their professional dealings
> then their is an argument against d0xing their personal information
> but once they start to try to hide information then it's open
> season on every aspect of their life.
> 
> 
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From intelemetry at openmailbox.org  Sun Nov  1 10:22:31 2015
From: intelemetry at openmailbox.org (intelemetry)
Date: Sun, 1 Nov 2015 18:22:31 +0000
Subject: Value of Earth Human Life
In-Reply-To: <CAJVRA1SJRhk3C-kdAc6=8O7pG=c6-53qSmbUi89Oe-jn9qCDPA@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAJVRA1SJRhk3C-kdAc6=8O7pG=c6-53qSmbUi89Oe-jn9qCDPA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <56365867.7060400@openmailbox.org>

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA512

coderman:
> for a US citizen: $7.9mm to $9.4mm
> 
> for a Russian citizen: $40,000 to $2mm
> 
> other legal precedent: ~$200,000-400,000 each earth human.
> 

There's the quote (to paraphrase):

	"During the cold war, the Russians were hard to kill and easy to
find. Now the "Muslims" are hard to find and easy to kill.

I'd say price varies based on individual.

> 
> for an AP target?  should there be a "minimum kill price"?
> 
> - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Value_of_life
> 
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From Rayzer at riseup.net  Sun Nov  1 18:37:15 2015
From: Rayzer at riseup.net (Razer)
Date: Sun, 1 Nov 2015 18:37:15 -0800
Subject: The BlackList
In-Reply-To: <563679ef.44e88c0a.4bc59.fffff577@mx.google.com>
References: <563552F7.7000103@openmailbox.org>
 <1618172215.394932.1446357637717.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com>
 <5635b6e3.0e138c0a.148ca.ffffc02f@mx.google.com>
 <CAJVRA1TaCAX_oYkHmFEDCj+Evj8C_-_vnOZaVq_f6DD7+J01iA@mail.gmail.com>
 <5635be08.53528c0a.6a953.ffffc32a@mx.google.com>
 <CAJVRA1Tj_0Q9jaLMKXzkgEe5TaQz_K1=X4e6MJkh36k1-06L8w@mail.gmail.com>
 <5635c7f4.c548370a.33e6a.10f6@mx.google.com>
 <CAJVRA1StNCiLmupBJ9FvB-j9Sybcv3rDEBLyrTrQzSou5=GfHw@mail.gmail.com>
 <563679ef.44e88c0a.4bc59.fffff577@mx.google.com>
Message-ID: <5636CC5B.1020504@riseup.net>



On 11/01/2015 12:52 PM, coderman wrote:
> rather different thing is the assumption that you can turn
> 	members of the official mafia into 'traitors' by offering them
> 	enough money. 

I dunno. The Italian mob worked with the OSS/CIA to set up an intel
network in Italy and Europe during WWII in exchange for Lucky Luciano's
release and exile. Pretty sure the Maf was also involved in Operation
Gladio, a NATO 'stay-behind' anti-communist army tasked with
destabilizing Italian (Belgian, other...) civil societies with various
kinds of acts including terrorism, designed to convince people in those
countries they'd be safer hanging with Western Industrial Capitalism
than moving towards socialism.

That's traitorous

RR

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From mirimir at riseup.net  Sun Nov  1 17:51:25 2015
From: mirimir at riseup.net (Mirimir)
Date: Sun, 1 Nov 2015 18:51:25 -0700
Subject: The BlackList
In-Reply-To: <563679ef.44e88c0a.4bc59.fffff577@mx.google.com>
References: <563552F7.7000103@openmailbox.org>
 <1618172215.394932.1446357637717.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com>
 <5635b6e3.0e138c0a.148ca.ffffc02f@mx.google.com>
 <CAJVRA1TaCAX_oYkHmFEDCj+Evj8C_-_vnOZaVq_f6DD7+J01iA@mail.gmail.com>
 <5635be08.53528c0a.6a953.ffffc32a@mx.google.com>
 <CAJVRA1Tj_0Q9jaLMKXzkgEe5TaQz_K1=X4e6MJkh36k1-06L8w@mail.gmail.com>
 <5635c7f4.c548370a.33e6a.10f6@mx.google.com>
 <CAJVRA1StNCiLmupBJ9FvB-j9Sybcv3rDEBLyrTrQzSou5=GfHw@mail.gmail.com>
 <563679ef.44e88c0a.4bc59.fffff577@mx.google.com>
Message-ID: <5636C19D.5060801@riseup.net>

On 11/01/2015 01:52 PM, Juan wrote:
> On Sun, 1 Nov 2015 01:16:15 -0700
> coderman <coderman at gmail.com> wrote:
> 
>> On 11/1/15, Juan <juan.g71 at gmail.com> wrote:
>>> ...
>>> 	It seems (kinda obvious) to me that to get rid of 'high
>>> 	ranking' targets you need a 'professional' service, agree?
>>
>> no, this is movie plot thinking.
> 
> 	Ha. That's a funny remark because I was just thinking that AP
> 	does sound like literary fiction so far.

Well, the idea has been kicked around for 20 years, and little has come
of it. Maybe that's because it's still unworkable. How are people going
to bid anonymously? Is Tor good enough for that? A viable AP market
would draw TLAs to Tor like dogs to shit. And they would cooperate.

Also, how would bidders pay anonymously when targets were killed? There
is no inherently anonymous payment system that's widely available. Maybe
anonymized Bitcoin, after a few mixes through Tor, would make the nut.
Or maybe creative carding. Maybe y'all reading this could manage it. But
what about the clueless masses who might be motivated to bid?

I don't know whether AP would take down governments. Hell, I'm not even
sure whether that would be prudent. But I am certain that many bidders
would go down, through cluelessness or system compromise.




From grarpamp at gmail.com  Sun Nov  1 16:00:13 2015
From: grarpamp at gmail.com (grarpamp)
Date: Sun, 1 Nov 2015 19:00:13 -0500
Subject: The United States of Air (novel) free ebook
In-Reply-To: <20151101194527.GD1702@fedora-21-dvm>
References: <CANFTA08bjQimHDM9wDa0-P-Zffn25aBh0zaTFF_TxdHrinEmrw@mail.gmail.com>
 <20151101142117.GC1760@fedora-21-dvm>
 <CAD2Ti296pZaNOvxrtfaUte2rGNGv2Ms_HAweLBbdR=xs2D0+BQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <20151101194527.GD1702@fedora-21-dvm>
Message-ID: <CAD2Ti2-cr2zdAY6azfOg82JKxUWVpTj+j0-e9qYMLjb4QFNqSg@mail.gmail.com>

On Sun, Nov 1, 2015 at 2:45 PM, J.M. Porup <jm at porup.com> wrote:
> Maybe read the book before you judge it?

Read what was said, nothing was said about it.




From oshwm at openmailbox.org  Sun Nov  1 11:23:05 2015
From: oshwm at openmailbox.org (oshwm)
Date: Sun, 01 Nov 2015 19:23:05 +0000
Subject: information imbalance - The Rise of Plitical Doxing [ bonus points
 for contrast with AP! :]
In-Reply-To: <56365744.60709@openmailbox.org>
References: <CAJVRA1QgvXG8R12s=M8avNe6sD9kx3pBTt0SRQ2TxcwSxQgybw@mail.gmail.com>
 <5635DB13.7040508@openmailbox.org> <56365744.60709@openmailbox.org>
Message-ID: <56366699.2040700@openmailbox.org>



On 01/11/15 18:17, intelemetry wrote:
> Where is the OPM link in .7z format?
> 

Didn't Barrett Brown end up in Solitary Confinement for giving out links
to data?

As for the real question, my ethical argument still stands:-

Those people in the OPM leak who were using personal resources to
conduct government business got what they deserved (leaked).

Those who were being honest and kept business dealing to the appropriate
and democratically accountable systems did not deserve their details to
be leaked.

Then there is another group who work to deceive the public and preserve
the state at any cost, those also deserve to be leaked (NSA, CIA, FBI
etc etc).

The hack on OPM also proves another thing that Governments (or indeed
anyone) should not create large databases of personal information
because they become huge and irresistable targets for crackers.


> - intelemetry
> 
> oshwm:
> 
> 
>> On 01/11/15 03:53, coderman wrote:
>>> http://motherboard.vice.com/read/the-rise-of-political-doxing
>>>
>>> Last week, CIA director John O. Brennan became the latest victim
>>> of what's become a popular way to embarrass and harass people on
>>> the internet. A hacker allegedly broke into his AOL account and
>>> published emails and documents found inside, many of them
>>> personal and sensitive.
>>>
>>> It's called doxing—sometimes doxxing—from the word "documents."
>>> It emerged in the 1990s as a hacker revenge tactic, and has since
>>> been as a tool to harass and intimidate people on the internet.
>>> Someone would threaten a woman with physical harm, or try to
>>> incite others to harm her, and publish her personal information
>>> as a way of saying "I know a lot about you—like where you live
>>> and work." Victims of doxing talk about the fear that this tactic
>>> instills. It's very effective, by which I mean that it's
>>> horrible.
>>>
>>> Brennan's doxing was slightly different. Here, the attacker had a
>>> more political motive. He wasn't out to intimidate Brennan; he
>>> simply wanted to embarrass him. His personal papers were dumped 
>>> indiscriminately, fodder for an eager press. This doxing was a 
>>> political act, and we're seeing this kind of thing more and
>>> more.
>>>
>>> Lots of people will have to face the publication of personal 
>>> correspondence, documents, and information they would rather be 
>>> private
>>>
>>> Last year, the government of North Korea allegedly did this to
>>> Sony. Hackers the FBI believes were working for North Korea broke
>>> into the company's networks, stole a huge amount of corporate
>>> data, and published it. This included unreleased movies,
>>> financial information, company plans, and personal emails. The
>>> reputational damage to the company was enormous; the company
>>> estimated the cost at $41 million.
>>>
>>> In July, hackers stole and published sensitive documents from
>>> the cyberweapons arms manufacturer Hacking Team. That same
>>> month, different hackers did the same thing to the infidelity
>>> website Ashley Madison. In 2014, hackers broke into the iCloud
>>> accounts of over 100 celebrities and published personal
>>> photographs, most containing some nudity. In 2013, Edward Snowden
>>> doxed the NSA.
>>>
>>> These aren't the first instances of politically motivated doxing,
>>> but there's a clear trend. As people realize what an effective
>>> attack this can be, and how an individual can use the tactic to
>>> do considerable damage to powerful people and institutions, we're
>>> going to see a lot more of it.
>>>
>>> On the internet, attack is easier than defense. We're living in
>>> a world where a sufficiently skilled and motivated attacker will 
>>> circumvent network security. Even worse, most internet security 
>>> assumes it needs to defend against an opportunistic attacker who
>>> will attack the weakest network in order to get—for example—a
>>> pile of credit card numbers. The notion of a targeted attacker,
>>> who wants Sony or Ashley Madison or John Brennan because of what
>>> they stand for, is still new. And it's even harder to defend
>>> against.
>>>
>>> What this means is that we're going to see more political doxing
>>> in the future, against both people and institutions. It's going
>>> to be a factor in elections. It's going to be a factor in
>>> anti-corporate activism. More people will find their personal
>>> information exposed to the world: politicians, corporate
>>> executives, celebrities, divisive and outspoken individuals.
>>>
>>> Of course they won't all be doxed, but some of them will. Some of
>>> them will be doxed directly, like Brennan. Some of them will be
>>> inadvertent victims of a doxing attack aimed at a company where
>>> their information is stored, like those celebrities with iPhone
>>> accounts and every customer of Ashley Madison. Regardless of the
>>> method, lots of people will have to face the publication of
>>> personal correspondence, documents, and information they would
>>> rather be private.
>>>
>>> In the end, doxing is a tactic that the powerless can effectively
>>> use against the powerful. It can be used for whistleblowing. It
>>> can be used as a vehicle for social change. And it can be used to
>>> embarrass, harass, and intimidate. Its popularity will rise and
>>> fall on this effectiveness, especially in a world where
>>> prosecuting the doxers is so difficult.
>>>
>>> There's no good solution for this right now. We all have the
>>> right to privacy, and we should be free from doxing. But we're
>>> not, and those of us who are in the public eye have no choice but
>>> to rethink our online data shadows.
>>>
> 
>> Political figures in most countries have been using their personal
>> email accounts to conduct business 'under the radar' in order to
>> avoid information being subject to oversight, most probably because
>> its illegal, unconstitutional or at the very least not good for the
>> image of governments.
> 
>> When they started to do this, they threw the book on ethics in the
>> bin and opened themselves up to any abuse of their personal life
>> that may happen.
> 
>> If people in power act properly in their professional dealings
>> then their is an argument against d0xing their personal information
>> but once they start to try to hide information then it's open
>> season on every aspect of their life.
> 
> 
> 

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From mirimir at riseup.net  Sun Nov  1 18:25:31 2015
From: mirimir at riseup.net (Mirimir)
Date: Sun, 1 Nov 2015 19:25:31 -0700
Subject: Value of Earth Human Life
In-Reply-To: <2016477829.396270.1446369912828.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com>
References: <CAD2Ti2_BYEkPis9yGqhMUC-NNVAueAWCvm1v7awDTW8sLRv+ew@mail.gmail.com>
 <2016477829.396270.1446369912828.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <5636C99B.3060807@riseup.net>

On 11/01/2015 02:25 AM, jim bell wrote:

<SNIP>

> While the first few collected rewards would probably be in the tens
> of thousands of dollars range, after a few hundred are collected I
> think the price could easily drop to the low thousands.

Really? Let's say that there was a viable AP system. What would bids be
like for top US officials? There are maybe a couple billion people who
want them dead. Even at $1 each, that's a lot of money!

Also, consider the potential for collateral damage. Let's say that I'm
the captain of a Russian nuclear sub. The aggregate value of the US
Congress might hit $100 billion, no? So what might I do? First, kill my
crew, after making suitable arrangements. Then nuke Washington, and
collect my winnings. Maybe drop out for a few years in some deep part of
the Pacific. Then buy an island, and retire.

<SNIP>




From mirimir at riseup.net  Sun Nov  1 18:27:41 2015
From: mirimir at riseup.net (Mirimir)
Date: Sun, 1 Nov 2015 19:27:41 -0700
Subject: The BlackList
In-Reply-To: <CAJVRA1RY0wPZRc66Et0B34i1J3F6FPj=ZONDY3p8xkc+V2immw@mail.gmail.com>
References: <563552F7.7000103@openmailbox.org>
 <1618172215.394932.1446357637717.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com>
 <5635b6e3.0e138c0a.148ca.ffffc02f@mx.google.com>
 <CAJVRA1TaCAX_oYkHmFEDCj+Evj8C_-_vnOZaVq_f6DD7+J01iA@mail.gmail.com>
 <5635be08.53528c0a.6a953.ffffc32a@mx.google.com>
 <CAJVRA1Tj_0Q9jaLMKXzkgEe5TaQz_K1=X4e6MJkh36k1-06L8w@mail.gmail.com>
 <5635c7f4.c548370a.33e6a.10f6@mx.google.com>
 <CAJVRA1StNCiLmupBJ9FvB-j9Sybcv3rDEBLyrTrQzSou5=GfHw@mail.gmail.com>
 <563679ef.44e88c0a.4bc59.fffff577@mx.google.com>
 <5636C19D.5060801@riseup.net>
 <CAJVRA1RY0wPZRc66Et0B34i1J3F6FPj=ZONDY3p8xkc+V2immw@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <5636CA1D.20707@riseup.net>

On 11/01/2015 07:09 PM, coderman wrote:
> On 11/1/15, Mirimir <mirimir at riseup.net> wrote:
>> ...
>> I don't know whether AP would take down governments. Hell, I'm not even
>> sure whether that would be prudent. But I am certain that many bidders
>> would go down, through cluelessness or system compromise.
> 
> my bid for my own life went unfulfilled, sadly. :/
>   https://blockchainbdgpzk.onion/tx/d4f89ca19c9ce0e9bcf1fc47d8223e4bee07ad269323faca68ae1113fa867d16
>  / https://blockchainbdgpzk.onion/address/1P6yannm6Rx9kkMH5LxmAsi1GdZ4JZG73T
>  [ death prediction lottery RIP vfwavrwava at yandex.com ]
> 
> 
> ah well, maybe one day?

Maybe you didn't advertise it well enough ;)




From intelemetry at openmailbox.org  Sun Nov  1 11:33:04 2015
From: intelemetry at openmailbox.org (intelemetry)
Date: Sun, 1 Nov 2015 19:33:04 +0000
Subject: information imbalance - The Rise of Plitical Doxing [ bonus
 points for contrast with AP! :]
In-Reply-To: <56366699.2040700@openmailbox.org>
References: <CAJVRA1QgvXG8R12s=M8avNe6sD9kx3pBTt0SRQ2TxcwSxQgybw@mail.gmail.com>
 <5635DB13.7040508@openmailbox.org> <56365744.60709@openmailbox.org>
 <56366699.2040700@openmailbox.org>
Message-ID: <563668F0.4070908@openmailbox.org>

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Hash: SHA512

It proves peoplesoft is a piece of shit.

oshwm:
> 
> 
> On 01/11/15 18:17, intelemetry wrote:
>> Where is the OPM link in .7z format?
>> 
> 
> Didn't Barrett Brown end up in Solitary Confinement for giving out
> links to data?
> 
> As for the real question, my ethical argument still stands:-
> 
> Those people in the OPM leak who were using personal resources to 
> conduct government business got what they deserved (leaked).
> 
> Those who were being honest and kept business dealing to the
> appropriate and democratically accountable systems did not deserve
> their details to be leaked.
> 
> Then there is another group who work to deceive the public and
> preserve the state at any cost, those also deserve to be leaked
> (NSA, CIA, FBI etc etc).
> 
> The hack on OPM also proves another thing that Governments (or
> indeed anyone) should not create large databases of personal
> information because they become huge and irresistable targets for
> crackers.
> 
> 
>> - intelemetry
>> 
>> oshwm:
>> 
>> 
>>> On 01/11/15 03:53, coderman wrote:
>>>> http://motherboard.vice.com/read/the-rise-of-political-doxing
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> 
Last week, CIA director John O. Brennan became the latest victim
>>>> of what's become a popular way to embarrass and harass people
>>>> on the internet. A hacker allegedly broke into his AOL
>>>> account and published emails and documents found inside, many
>>>> of them personal and sensitive.
>>>> 
>>>> It's called doxing—sometimes doxxing—from the word
>>>> "documents." It emerged in the 1990s as a hacker revenge
>>>> tactic, and has since been as a tool to harass and intimidate
>>>> people on the internet. Someone would threaten a woman with
>>>> physical harm, or try to incite others to harm her, and
>>>> publish her personal information as a way of saying "I know a
>>>> lot about you—like where you live and work." Victims of
>>>> doxing talk about the fear that this tactic instills. It's
>>>> very effective, by which I mean that it's horrible.
>>>> 
>>>> Brennan's doxing was slightly different. Here, the attacker
>>>> had a more political motive. He wasn't out to intimidate
>>>> Brennan; he simply wanted to embarrass him. His personal
>>>> papers were dumped indiscriminately, fodder for an eager
>>>> press. This doxing was a political act, and we're seeing this
>>>> kind of thing more and more.
>>>> 
>>>> Lots of people will have to face the publication of personal
>>>>  correspondence, documents, and information they would rather
>>>> be private
>>>> 
>>>> Last year, the government of North Korea allegedly did this
>>>> to Sony. Hackers the FBI believes were working for North
>>>> Korea broke into the company's networks, stole a huge amount
>>>> of corporate data, and published it. This included unreleased
>>>> movies, financial information, company plans, and personal
>>>> emails. The reputational damage to the company was enormous;
>>>> the company estimated the cost at $41 million.
>>>> 
>>>> In July, hackers stole and published sensitive documents
>>>> from the cyberweapons arms manufacturer Hacking Team. That
>>>> same month, different hackers did the same thing to the
>>>> infidelity website Ashley Madison. In 2014, hackers broke
>>>> into the iCloud accounts of over 100 celebrities and
>>>> published personal photographs, most containing some nudity.
>>>> In 2013, Edward Snowden doxed the NSA.
>>>> 
>>>> These aren't the first instances of politically motivated
>>>> doxing, but there's a clear trend. As people realize what an
>>>> effective attack this can be, and how an individual can use
>>>> the tactic to do considerable damage to powerful people and
>>>> institutions, we're going to see a lot more of it.
>>>> 
>>>> On the internet, attack is easier than defense. We're living
>>>> in a world where a sufficiently skilled and motivated
>>>> attacker will circumvent network security. Even worse, most
>>>> internet security assumes it needs to defend against an
>>>> opportunistic attacker who will attack the weakest network in
>>>> order to get—for example—a pile of credit card numbers. The
>>>> notion of a targeted attacker, who wants Sony or Ashley
>>>> Madison or John Brennan because of what they stand for, is
>>>> still new. And it's even harder to defend against.
>>>> 
>>>> What this means is that we're going to see more political
>>>> doxing in the future, against both people and institutions.
>>>> It's going to be a factor in elections. It's going to be a
>>>> factor in anti-corporate activism. More people will find
>>>> their personal information exposed to the world: politicians,
>>>> corporate executives, celebrities, divisive and outspoken
>>>> individuals.
>>>> 
>>>> Of course they won't all be doxed, but some of them will.
>>>> Some of them will be doxed directly, like Brennan. Some of
>>>> them will be inadvertent victims of a doxing attack aimed at
>>>> a company where their information is stored, like those
>>>> celebrities with iPhone accounts and every customer of Ashley
>>>> Madison. Regardless of the method, lots of people will have
>>>> to face the publication of personal correspondence,
>>>> documents, and information they would rather be private.
>>>> 
>>>> In the end, doxing is a tactic that the powerless can
>>>> effectively use against the powerful. It can be used for
>>>> whistleblowing. It can be used as a vehicle for social
>>>> change. And it can be used to embarrass, harass, and
>>>> intimidate. Its popularity will rise and fall on this
>>>> effectiveness, especially in a world where prosecuting the
>>>> doxers is so difficult.
>>>> 
>>>> There's no good solution for this right now. We all have the 
>>>> right to privacy, and we should be free from doxing. But
>>>> we're not, and those of us who are in the public eye have no
>>>> choice but to rethink our online data shadows.
>>>> 
>> 
>>> Political figures in most countries have been using their
>>> personal email accounts to conduct business 'under the radar'
>>> in order to avoid information being subject to oversight, most
>>> probably because its illegal, unconstitutional or at the very
>>> least not good for the image of governments.
>> 
>>> When they started to do this, they threw the book on ethics in
>>> the bin and opened themselves up to any abuse of their personal
>>> life that may happen.
>> 
>>> If people in power act properly in their professional dealings 
>>> then their is an argument against d0xing their personal
>>> information but once they start to try to hide information then
>>> it's open season on every aspect of their life.
>> 
>> 
>> 
> 
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From juan.g71 at gmail.com  Sun Nov  1 14:34:01 2015
From: juan.g71 at gmail.com (Juan)
Date: Sun, 1 Nov 2015 19:34:01 -0300
Subject: Shiny stuff and designer societies
In-Reply-To: <CAHWD2r+h3OsK0eAhU50PnRVBv-tULNWqQbYFbkOyqMyeAdOSDQ@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAHWD2rJNTxt2+=0rPkkc+323pTn-njkvJVgUE624LShu2xg1Eg@mail.gmail.com>
 <150b0aeef50.276e.4d489027c0c4d0c1b1ca03a1f48f1ffb@misanthropia.org>
 <20151028231728.1A96CC00019@frontend1.nyi.internal>
 <CAOsGNSThwv=c9K4v4HkD27PD+wY9+XykyTNOWs=7FOwPpxctZw@mail.gmail.com>
 <150b1290920.276e.4d489027c0c4d0c1b1ca03a1f48f1ffb@misanthropia.org>
 <20151029013945.C7D9FC00012@frontend1.nyi.internal>
 <CAHWD2rLJ0RgxcGZi=mKD=OfYYtCy1j9sfbzDKOVZuuX5EPCnJg@mail.gmail.com>
 <56327869.361f8c0a.efb1c.692d@mx.google.com>
 <CAHWD2rLBHnMHYnLZfYWfvvY9vQnxxrTp5Pk88H5mFoXO6+KW7g@mail.gmail.com>
 <5633e047.b3588c0a.28e5f.1db7@mx.google.com>
 <CAHWD2r+h3OsK0eAhU50PnRVBv-tULNWqQbYFbkOyqMyeAdOSDQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <563691c8.d3828c0a.96ed7.044b@mx.google.com>

On Sun, 1 Nov 2015 22:08:30 +0100
Lodewijk andré de la porte <l at odewijk.nl> wrote:


> > > What's worse, it'll redefine criminal!
> >
> >         Of course. So, why should any sane person support such a
> >         system?
> >
> 
> Because it helps you. 

	It doesn't help me. It's a criminal organization that only
	helps itself and its criminal partners. 



> Consistently applied and effective justice

	The state doesn't provide justice. 


> 
> I think it's important to create law that's conservative and very
> morally and ethically neutral.


	OK. At this point you are pretty much some kind of bot. 



> 
> I think justice should not depend upon ethics very much at all. 
	
	You don't know what justice is. 



> 
> >         You can keep repeating absurd, mainstream propaganda without
> > > >         any regard to logic, but what's the point? What can you
> > > >         achieve?
> > > >
> > >
> > > Complex agreements, abstaining from violence, huge organizations,
> > > etc. These are valuable, aren't they?
> >
> >         Abstaining from violence? States are the most violent
> >         organizations on the planet.
> 
> 
> It's a fucking for virginity kind of thing.

	
	Yes, that's your position. A clear contradiction in terms. An
	absurdity. Nonsense.

	You are supposed to present some kind of rational argument
	here. Crass contradictions are just the opposite of rational
	argument. 

	The game is totally and completely over and you lost big time. 


> 
> 
> > As to the complex arrangements
> >         that can exist in a society, you don't need the state to
> >         have them.
> >
> 
> True, but we have made it far easier by ways of state. 

	
	False. 

> 
> >         It's also debatable why huge organizations are 'valuable'.
> >
> 
> Economies of scale is one reason. The other is singular ginormous
> efforts. The pyramids are an example, but also the space race, this
> boat

	What are you talking about. Who gives a fuck about the pyramids
	or the space race? 

	Oh you think people should be sacrificed for your retarded
	collective pet projects?	


> 
> Not just commerce; CERN is awesome!
	
	cern is a useless piece of shit - it's welfare for scammers who
	pretend to be 'scientists'. 



> Related;
> I think we can produce a formal logic for politics. 


	Really. 


> One could model the amount of coercion upon an actor, how much a tax
> exemption would create incentives.
> 
> I'm sorry for not having good examples.


	Don't worry. Your nonsense is horribly bad as it is...


> 
> 
> > > We can produce incentive schemes, to encourage the correct
> > > behavior.
> >
> >         What is the 'correct' behaviour?
> >
> 
> For the system's actors to behave as they should, as determined by the
> system. 

	
	Do you have anything else apart from blatant contradictions and
	cicular 'logic'? 


 
> > > In fact, if the system works it needs no restrictions.
> > >
> > > We've yet to find a system that works.
> >
> >         Define 'works'.
> >
> 
> Does what it says on the tin.


	Whatever. Did I mention that your ramblings are pretty much a
	description of the 'system' we have now. 

	I honestly don't know what you are complaining about. 

> 
> 
> > > >         Come on Lodewijk. Why don't you do your homework? Learn
> > > > the ABC of poltical theory.
> > >
> > > I tried doing homework, but the books were full of propaganda.
> >
> >         Well yes, there are varying levels of propaganda in
> > political philosophy. There are some sound principles too.
> >
> >         You think people should be free, and things organized
> > according to 'market principles' in some areas, but not in others.
> >         Problem is, being 'free' to follow arbitrary rules isn't
> >         exactly freedom.
> >
> 
> Freedom is not very strongly defined anyway. It means you can't be
> "forced" to do something, but it's very rare for death not to be an
> alternative choice. Reality narrows our choices most significantly,
> but through law and enforcement we can change the "economic
> landscape" and cause what once was the best choice ('deepest valley')
> to become only meh, or very not good ('high ridge'). I guess freedom
> is when you have no (clear) optimal choices, which isn't actually
> preferable.


	"Freedom is not very strongly defined anyway" 

	More meaningless rambling. Are you high or something? 



> 
> Mathematically it makes sense to have competition and free markets.
	
	LMAO. Mathematics is for counting stuff.

	
> In
> practice the actors do not obey perfectly, and cause a lot of reality.
> Additionally, while a market is finding it's optimum (the best way to
> do a certain thing) competition actually has significant cost.
> Sometimes reality shifts faster than markets anneal, and we get stuck
> with a lot of competition instead of expediting that energy to moving
> towards the ideal solution. (also game theory)
> 
> 
> > > Do tell me Juan, how do we prevent a "criminal monopoly"? Isn't it
> > > better to make a very good "criminal monopoly"?
> >
> >         Literally? A very good criminal monopoly would excel at
> > being criminal. I don't think that's what you want?
> >
> 
> There you go using criminal as if it means something :)


	It means nothing to amoralist nutcases. 
 

> 
> Uhm, the ideal criminal monopoly, to me, would be criminal enough to
> ensure it's own existence, and do things I like as well. Like
> advancing humanity. 

	lol...

	Shouldn't you learn the ABC and master BASIC LOGICAL THINKING
	before trying to 'advance humanity'?

	Are you fucking crazy? You can't grasp BASIC LOGIC and yet you
	want to 'advance humanity'??


> 
> > > I have the right because I can. Powers *are* rights.
> >
> >         That's not what 'right(s)' means. Or rather that's the kind
> > of 'rights' that governments rely upon. Arbitrary dictates backed
> >         by force.
> 
> 
> Rights are defined by government, 


	Are you completely retarded or what.



a self restraint alike "I'll never
> drink again". But I don't think that's very meaningful. Rights are
> supposed to be impossible to violate.

	whatever you say.


> If the government is incapable
> of violating the right, then it's a right. But by that point it's
> synonymous with a citizen's power. In practice "rights" are barriers,
> not absolute restraints.
> 
> Ugh, linguistics.


	You mean, you wrote pages of absurd ramblings? Yeah.


> 
>         You are misunderstanding what natural rights are. Natural
> >         rights are a more legalistic description of common sense
> >         morality.
> >
> >         You can probably kill a few random people right now if you
> >         want. Say, use a car to run people over. But the fact that
> > you *can* kill people means killing people is morally right?
> >
> >         Same thing with natural rights. The fact that natural rights
> >         can be violated doesn't mean they don't exist.
> >
> 
> Natural rights are entirely different from rights. It is as you say,
> a plea for encoding some specific morality into law. Claiming
> something is a natural right seems to imply that it's been a right
> since before the politics determined what is and isn't a right. I
> think it's pretty meaningless,


	Because you are some kind of psycho. 


> but I deeply empathize with the
> emotions involved.

	I don't think so.



> > > Ask the mountains thought to have
> > > spirits.
> >
> >         That's a poetic license.
> >
> 
> Can't ignore a mountain's natural rights, man.
	
	Fuck you. 


> 
> 
> >         I would point out (again) that  1) your understanding of
> >         natural rights isn't...right. 2) that even current states
> >         pretend to get their powers from 'natural rights'.
> >
> 
> I think my understanding is still not aligned. What states pretend to
> get their powers from 'natural rights'? 


	Like I said, do your fucking homework.



> 
> > > I think in practice it will be easier to make the system a
> > > compelling opt-in. If you don't want to be in it, it is probably
> > > not good enough.
> >
> >         Oh that's a good point. So now you wearing your anarchist
> > hat? =P
> >
> 
> It's my plan for world domination. I just make a system that's so nice
> everyone will come running.


	You are nuts. NOW, I've had enough.







From grarpamp at gmail.com  Sun Nov  1 16:37:11 2015
From: grarpamp at gmail.com (grarpamp)
Date: Sun, 1 Nov 2015 19:37:11 -0500
Subject: information imbalance - The Rise of Plitical Doxing [ bonus
 points for contrast with AP! :]
In-Reply-To: <CAJVRA1SS6ji5xYt5NknXO58jf+fCKNi1HvS8_DDfENXY4iBG=w@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAJVRA1QgvXG8R12s=M8avNe6sD9kx3pBTt0SRQ2TxcwSxQgybw@mail.gmail.com>
 <5635DB13.7040508@openmailbox.org> <56365744.60709@openmailbox.org>
 <56366699.2040700@openmailbox.org> <563668F0.4070908@openmailbox.org>
 <56366FC0.30900@riseup.net>
 <CAJVRA1SS6ji5xYt5NknXO58jf+fCKNi1HvS8_DDfENXY4iBG=w@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAD2Ti28zZ9C5AUiKfAEn6GBvWHm0gcj3_BRchwM7PMtDXbvOQw@mail.gmail.com>

On Sun, Nov 1, 2015 at 3:19 PM, coderman <coderman at gmail.com> wrote:
>  his writing from prison is much more potent. it will be good for him?

He'll have a fine talk show when he gets out.

> (it is at least entertaining to me. and his commissary can always use




From oshwm at openmailbox.org  Sun Nov  1 11:43:01 2015
From: oshwm at openmailbox.org (oshwm)
Date: Sun, 01 Nov 2015 19:43:01 +0000
Subject: information imbalance - The Rise of Plitical Doxing [ bonus points
 for contrast with AP! :]
In-Reply-To: <563668F0.4070908@openmailbox.org>
References: <CAJVRA1QgvXG8R12s=M8avNe6sD9kx3pBTt0SRQ2TxcwSxQgybw@mail.gmail.com>
 <5635DB13.7040508@openmailbox.org> <56365744.60709@openmailbox.org>
 <56366699.2040700@openmailbox.org> <563668F0.4070908@openmailbox.org>
Message-ID: <56366B45.8050708@openmailbox.org>



On 01/11/15 19:33, intelemetry wrote:
> It proves peoplesoft is a piece of shit.
> 

ha ha, I'm not sure government uses any corps that actually know what
they're doing :D

> oshwm:
> 
> 
>> On 01/11/15 18:17, intelemetry wrote:
>>> Where is the OPM link in .7z format?
>>>
> 
>> Didn't Barrett Brown end up in Solitary Confinement for giving out
>> links to data?
> 
>> As for the real question, my ethical argument still stands:-
> 
>> Those people in the OPM leak who were using personal resources to 
>> conduct government business got what they deserved (leaked).
> 
>> Those who were being honest and kept business dealing to the
>> appropriate and democratically accountable systems did not deserve
>> their details to be leaked.
> 
>> Then there is another group who work to deceive the public and
>> preserve the state at any cost, those also deserve to be leaked
>> (NSA, CIA, FBI etc etc).
> 
>> The hack on OPM also proves another thing that Governments (or
>> indeed anyone) should not create large databases of personal
>> information because they become huge and irresistable targets for
>> crackers.
> 
> 
>>> - intelemetry
>>>
>>> oshwm:
>>>
>>>
>>>> On 01/11/15 03:53, coderman wrote:
>>>>> http://motherboard.vice.com/read/the-rise-of-political-doxing
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
> Last week, CIA director John O. Brennan became the latest victim
>>>>> of what's become a popular way to embarrass and harass people
>>>>> on the internet. A hacker allegedly broke into his AOL
>>>>> account and published emails and documents found inside, many
>>>>> of them personal and sensitive.
>>>>>
>>>>> It's called doxing—sometimes doxxing—from the word
>>>>> "documents." It emerged in the 1990s as a hacker revenge
>>>>> tactic, and has since been as a tool to harass and intimidate
>>>>> people on the internet. Someone would threaten a woman with
>>>>> physical harm, or try to incite others to harm her, and
>>>>> publish her personal information as a way of saying "I know a
>>>>> lot about you—like where you live and work." Victims of
>>>>> doxing talk about the fear that this tactic instills. It's
>>>>> very effective, by which I mean that it's horrible.
>>>>>
>>>>> Brennan's doxing was slightly different. Here, the attacker
>>>>> had a more political motive. He wasn't out to intimidate
>>>>> Brennan; he simply wanted to embarrass him. His personal
>>>>> papers were dumped indiscriminately, fodder for an eager
>>>>> press. This doxing was a political act, and we're seeing this
>>>>> kind of thing more and more.
>>>>>
>>>>> Lots of people will have to face the publication of personal
>>>>>  correspondence, documents, and information they would rather
>>>>> be private
>>>>>
>>>>> Last year, the government of North Korea allegedly did this
>>>>> to Sony. Hackers the FBI believes were working for North
>>>>> Korea broke into the company's networks, stole a huge amount
>>>>> of corporate data, and published it. This included unreleased
>>>>> movies, financial information, company plans, and personal
>>>>> emails. The reputational damage to the company was enormous;
>>>>> the company estimated the cost at $41 million.
>>>>>
>>>>> In July, hackers stole and published sensitive documents
>>>>> from the cyberweapons arms manufacturer Hacking Team. That
>>>>> same month, different hackers did the same thing to the
>>>>> infidelity website Ashley Madison. In 2014, hackers broke
>>>>> into the iCloud accounts of over 100 celebrities and
>>>>> published personal photographs, most containing some nudity.
>>>>> In 2013, Edward Snowden doxed the NSA.
>>>>>
>>>>> These aren't the first instances of politically motivated
>>>>> doxing, but there's a clear trend. As people realize what an
>>>>> effective attack this can be, and how an individual can use
>>>>> the tactic to do considerable damage to powerful people and
>>>>> institutions, we're going to see a lot more of it.
>>>>>
>>>>> On the internet, attack is easier than defense. We're living
>>>>> in a world where a sufficiently skilled and motivated
>>>>> attacker will circumvent network security. Even worse, most
>>>>> internet security assumes it needs to defend against an
>>>>> opportunistic attacker who will attack the weakest network in
>>>>> order to get—for example—a pile of credit card numbers. The
>>>>> notion of a targeted attacker, who wants Sony or Ashley
>>>>> Madison or John Brennan because of what they stand for, is
>>>>> still new. And it's even harder to defend against.
>>>>>
>>>>> What this means is that we're going to see more political
>>>>> doxing in the future, against both people and institutions.
>>>>> It's going to be a factor in elections. It's going to be a
>>>>> factor in anti-corporate activism. More people will find
>>>>> their personal information exposed to the world: politicians,
>>>>> corporate executives, celebrities, divisive and outspoken
>>>>> individuals.
>>>>>
>>>>> Of course they won't all be doxed, but some of them will.
>>>>> Some of them will be doxed directly, like Brennan. Some of
>>>>> them will be inadvertent victims of a doxing attack aimed at
>>>>> a company where their information is stored, like those
>>>>> celebrities with iPhone accounts and every customer of Ashley
>>>>> Madison. Regardless of the method, lots of people will have
>>>>> to face the publication of personal correspondence,
>>>>> documents, and information they would rather be private.
>>>>>
>>>>> In the end, doxing is a tactic that the powerless can
>>>>> effectively use against the powerful. It can be used for
>>>>> whistleblowing. It can be used as a vehicle for social
>>>>> change. And it can be used to embarrass, harass, and
>>>>> intimidate. Its popularity will rise and fall on this
>>>>> effectiveness, especially in a world where prosecuting the
>>>>> doxers is so difficult.
>>>>>
>>>>> There's no good solution for this right now. We all have the 
>>>>> right to privacy, and we should be free from doxing. But
>>>>> we're not, and those of us who are in the public eye have no
>>>>> choice but to rethink our online data shadows.
>>>>>
>>>
>>>> Political figures in most countries have been using their
>>>> personal email accounts to conduct business 'under the radar'
>>>> in order to avoid information being subject to oversight, most
>>>> probably because its illegal, unconstitutional or at the very
>>>> least not good for the image of governments.
>>>
>>>> When they started to do this, they threw the book on ethics in
>>>> the bin and opened themselves up to any abuse of their personal
>>>> life that may happen.
>>>
>>>> If people in power act properly in their professional dealings 
>>>> then their is an argument against d0xing their personal
>>>> information but once they start to try to hide information then
>>>> it's open season on every aspect of their life.
>>>
>>>
>>>
> 
> 

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From intelemetry at openmailbox.org  Sun Nov  1 12:14:27 2015
From: intelemetry at openmailbox.org (intelemetry)
Date: Sun, 1 Nov 2015 20:14:27 +0000
Subject: information imbalance - The Rise of Plitical Doxing [ bonus
 points for contrast with AP! :]
In-Reply-To: <56366B45.8050708@openmailbox.org>
References: <CAJVRA1QgvXG8R12s=M8avNe6sD9kx3pBTt0SRQ2TxcwSxQgybw@mail.gmail.com>
 <5635DB13.7040508@openmailbox.org> <56365744.60709@openmailbox.org>
 <56366699.2040700@openmailbox.org> <563668F0.4070908@openmailbox.org>
 <56366B45.8050708@openmailbox.org>
Message-ID: <563672A3.9060600@openmailbox.org>

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA512

My question here is regarding the covert exfil of the hack.

Check out somebody like darktrace: https://www.darktrace.com/

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Network_Behavior_Anomaly_Detection

That egress would be a monumental NOC IDS trigger, especially for an
anomaly detection system. Have to imagine the database is big.
Especially if you do anomaly detection on the SIEM collecting things
like DNS, flow, etc.

Probably a pivot into the Oracle database. The coupling between
PeopleSoft and the backend is weird.

The question is whether this is everybody because agencies sponsor
clearance and may or may not partition their own records on the backend.

Something doesn't make sense here. If they can catch the white house
non-classified penetration with low traffic and no exfil the OPM hack
seems like it should have been detected easily. Moreover, there are
automatic kill-chains in a lot of this infrastructure:


== begin white house ==
http://www.nytimes.com/2015/04/26/us/russian-hackers-read-obamas-unclass
ified-emails-officials-say.html?_r=0

http://fortune.com/2015/04/07/russians-hacked-white-house/
== end white house ==


	http://www.lockheedmartin.com/us/what-we-do/information-technology/cybe
rsecurity/tradecraft/cyber-kill-chain.html

	http://www.darkreading.com/attacks-breaches/deconstructing-the-cyber-ki
ll-chain/a/d-id/1317542

I have to imagine they have a switch with inline and span analytics
and IDS/IPS, anomaly detection, and logging from multiple telemetry
sources. Grabbing that data from that network and running remotely
seems like a hefty attack without compromising the actual reporting
devices. Which has been done:

	http://www.phenoelit.org/stuff/CiscoInTheSkyWithDiamonds.pdf

	^^ virtual networking

It would be interesting to know how much is virtual networking out
there these days in the government.

- - intelemetry

oshwm:
> 
> 
> On 01/11/15 19:33, intelemetry wrote:
>> It proves peoplesoft is a piece of shit.
>> 
> 
> ha ha, I'm not sure government uses any corps that actually know
> what they're doing :D
> 
>> oshwm:
>> 
>> 
>>> On 01/11/15 18:17, intelemetry wrote:
>>>> Where is the OPM link in .7z format?
>>>> 
>> 
>>> Didn't Barrett Brown end up in Solitary Confinement for giving
>>> out links to data?
>> 
>>> As for the real question, my ethical argument still stands:-
>> 
>>> Those people in the OPM leak who were using personal resources
>>> to conduct government business got what they deserved
>>> (leaked).
>> 
>>> Those who were being honest and kept business dealing to the 
>>> appropriate and democratically accountable systems did not
>>> deserve their details to be leaked.
>> 
>>> Then there is another group who work to deceive the public and 
>>> preserve the state at any cost, those also deserve to be
>>> leaked (NSA, CIA, FBI etc etc).
>> 
>>> The hack on OPM also proves another thing that Governments (or 
>>> indeed anyone) should not create large databases of personal 
>>> information because they become huge and irresistable targets
>>> for crackers.
>> 
>> 
>>>> - intelemetry
>>>> 
>>>> oshwm:
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>>> On 01/11/15 03:53, coderman wrote:
>>>>>> http://motherboard.vice.com/read/the-rise-of-political-doxing
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>
>>>>>> 
Last week, CIA director John O. Brennan became the latest victim
>>>>>> of what's become a popular way to embarrass and harass
>>>>>> people on the internet. A hacker allegedly broke into his
>>>>>> AOL account and published emails and documents found
>>>>>> inside, many of them personal and sensitive.
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> It's called doxing—sometimes doxxing—from the word 
>>>>>> "documents." It emerged in the 1990s as a hacker revenge 
>>>>>> tactic, and has since been as a tool to harass and
>>>>>> intimidate people on the internet. Someone would threaten
>>>>>> a woman with physical harm, or try to incite others to
>>>>>> harm her, and publish her personal information as a way
>>>>>> of saying "I know a lot about you—like where you live and
>>>>>> work." Victims of doxing talk about the fear that this
>>>>>> tactic instills. It's very effective, by which I mean
>>>>>> that it's horrible.
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> Brennan's doxing was slightly different. Here, the
>>>>>> attacker had a more political motive. He wasn't out to
>>>>>> intimidate Brennan; he simply wanted to embarrass him.
>>>>>> His personal papers were dumped indiscriminately, fodder
>>>>>> for an eager press. This doxing was a political act, and
>>>>>> we're seeing this kind of thing more and more.
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> Lots of people will have to face the publication of
>>>>>> personal correspondence, documents, and information they
>>>>>> would rather be private
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> Last year, the government of North Korea allegedly did
>>>>>> this to Sony. Hackers the FBI believes were working for
>>>>>> North Korea broke into the company's networks, stole a
>>>>>> huge amount of corporate data, and published it. This
>>>>>> included unreleased movies, financial information,
>>>>>> company plans, and personal emails. The reputational
>>>>>> damage to the company was enormous; the company estimated
>>>>>> the cost at $41 million.
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> In July, hackers stole and published sensitive documents 
>>>>>> from the cyberweapons arms manufacturer Hacking Team.
>>>>>> That same month, different hackers did the same thing to
>>>>>> the infidelity website Ashley Madison. In 2014, hackers
>>>>>> broke into the iCloud accounts of over 100 celebrities
>>>>>> and published personal photographs, most containing some
>>>>>> nudity. In 2013, Edward Snowden doxed the NSA.
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> These aren't the first instances of politically
>>>>>> motivated doxing, but there's a clear trend. As people
>>>>>> realize what an effective attack this can be, and how an
>>>>>> individual can use the tactic to do considerable damage
>>>>>> to powerful people and institutions, we're going to see a
>>>>>> lot more of it.
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> On the internet, attack is easier than defense. We're
>>>>>> living in a world where a sufficiently skilled and
>>>>>> motivated attacker will circumvent network security. Even
>>>>>> worse, most internet security assumes it needs to defend
>>>>>> against an opportunistic attacker who will attack the
>>>>>> weakest network in order to get—for example—a pile of
>>>>>> credit card numbers. The notion of a targeted attacker,
>>>>>> who wants Sony or Ashley Madison or John Brennan because
>>>>>> of what they stand for, is still new. And it's even
>>>>>> harder to defend against.
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> What this means is that we're going to see more
>>>>>> political doxing in the future, against both people and
>>>>>> institutions. It's going to be a factor in elections.
>>>>>> It's going to be a factor in anti-corporate activism.
>>>>>> More people will find their personal information exposed
>>>>>> to the world: politicians, corporate executives,
>>>>>> celebrities, divisive and outspoken individuals.
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> Of course they won't all be doxed, but some of them
>>>>>> will. Some of them will be doxed directly, like Brennan.
>>>>>> Some of them will be inadvertent victims of a doxing
>>>>>> attack aimed at a company where their information is
>>>>>> stored, like those celebrities with iPhone accounts and
>>>>>> every customer of Ashley Madison. Regardless of the
>>>>>> method, lots of people will have to face the publication
>>>>>> of personal correspondence, documents, and information
>>>>>> they would rather be private.
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> In the end, doxing is a tactic that the powerless can 
>>>>>> effectively use against the powerful. It can be used for 
>>>>>> whistleblowing. It can be used as a vehicle for social 
>>>>>> change. And it can be used to embarrass, harass, and 
>>>>>> intimidate. Its popularity will rise and fall on this 
>>>>>> effectiveness, especially in a world where prosecuting
>>>>>> the doxers is so difficult.
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> There's no good solution for this right now. We all have
>>>>>> the right to privacy, and we should be free from doxing.
>>>>>> But we're not, and those of us who are in the public eye
>>>>>> have no choice but to rethink our online data shadows.
>>>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>>> Political figures in most countries have been using their 
>>>>> personal email accounts to conduct business 'under the
>>>>> radar' in order to avoid information being subject to
>>>>> oversight, most probably because its illegal,
>>>>> unconstitutional or at the very least not good for the
>>>>> image of governments.
>>>> 
>>>>> When they started to do this, they threw the book on ethics
>>>>> in the bin and opened themselves up to any abuse of their
>>>>> personal life that may happen.
>>>> 
>>>>> If people in power act properly in their professional
>>>>> dealings then their is an argument against d0xing their
>>>>> personal information but once they start to try to hide
>>>>> information then it's open season on every aspect of their
>>>>> life.
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> 
>> 
>> 
> 
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From oshwm at openmailbox.org  Sun Nov  1 12:30:13 2015
From: oshwm at openmailbox.org (oshwm)
Date: Sun, 01 Nov 2015 20:30:13 +0000
Subject: information imbalance - The Rise of Plitical Doxing [ bonus points
 for contrast with AP! :]
In-Reply-To: <563672A3.9060600@openmailbox.org>
References: <CAJVRA1QgvXG8R12s=M8avNe6sD9kx3pBTt0SRQ2TxcwSxQgybw@mail.gmail.com>
 <5635DB13.7040508@openmailbox.org> <56365744.60709@openmailbox.org>
 <56366699.2040700@openmailbox.org> <563668F0.4070908@openmailbox.org>
 <56366B45.8050708@openmailbox.org> <563672A3.9060600@openmailbox.org>
Message-ID: <56367655.9040005@openmailbox.org>

A lot of reading there for me to be able to answer intelligently but I
see what you're saying - how to walk out of the door with all that data
on a Lady Gaga CD :D

On 01/11/15 20:14, intelemetry wrote:
> My question here is regarding the covert exfil of the hack.
> 
> Check out somebody like darktrace: https://www.darktrace.com/
> 
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Network_Behavior_Anomaly_Detection
> 
> That egress would be a monumental NOC IDS trigger, especially for an
> anomaly detection system. Have to imagine the database is big.
> Especially if you do anomaly detection on the SIEM collecting things
> like DNS, flow, etc.
> 
> Probably a pivot into the Oracle database. The coupling between
> PeopleSoft and the backend is weird.
> 
> The question is whether this is everybody because agencies sponsor
> clearance and may or may not partition their own records on the backend.
> 
> Something doesn't make sense here. If they can catch the white house
> non-classified penetration with low traffic and no exfil the OPM hack
> seems like it should have been detected easily. Moreover, there are
> automatic kill-chains in a lot of this infrastructure:
> 
> 
> == begin white house ==
> http://www.nytimes.com/2015/04/26/us/russian-hackers-read-obamas-unclass
> ified-emails-officials-say.html?_r=0
> 
> http://fortune.com/2015/04/07/russians-hacked-white-house/
> == end white house ==
> 
> 
> 	http://www.lockheedmartin.com/us/what-we-do/information-technology/cybe
> rsecurity/tradecraft/cyber-kill-chain.html
> 
> 	http://www.darkreading.com/attacks-breaches/deconstructing-the-cyber-ki
> ll-chain/a/d-id/1317542
> 
> I have to imagine they have a switch with inline and span analytics
> and IDS/IPS, anomaly detection, and logging from multiple telemetry
> sources. Grabbing that data from that network and running remotely
> seems like a hefty attack without compromising the actual reporting
> devices. Which has been done:
> 
> 	http://www.phenoelit.org/stuff/CiscoInTheSkyWithDiamonds.pdf
> 
> 	^^ virtual networking
> 
> It would be interesting to know how much is virtual networking out
> there these days in the government.
> 
> - intelemetry
> 
> oshwm:
> 
> 
>> On 01/11/15 19:33, intelemetry wrote:
>>> It proves peoplesoft is a piece of shit.
>>>
> 
>> ha ha, I'm not sure government uses any corps that actually know
>> what they're doing :D
> 
>>> oshwm:
>>>
>>>
>>>> On 01/11/15 18:17, intelemetry wrote:
>>>>> Where is the OPM link in .7z format?
>>>>>
>>>
>>>> Didn't Barrett Brown end up in Solitary Confinement for giving
>>>> out links to data?
>>>
>>>> As for the real question, my ethical argument still stands:-
>>>
>>>> Those people in the OPM leak who were using personal resources
>>>> to conduct government business got what they deserved
>>>> (leaked).
>>>
>>>> Those who were being honest and kept business dealing to the 
>>>> appropriate and democratically accountable systems did not
>>>> deserve their details to be leaked.
>>>
>>>> Then there is another group who work to deceive the public and 
>>>> preserve the state at any cost, those also deserve to be
>>>> leaked (NSA, CIA, FBI etc etc).
>>>
>>>> The hack on OPM also proves another thing that Governments (or 
>>>> indeed anyone) should not create large databases of personal 
>>>> information because they become huge and irresistable targets
>>>> for crackers.
>>>
>>>
>>>>> - intelemetry
>>>>>
>>>>> oshwm:
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>> On 01/11/15 03:53, coderman wrote:
>>>>>>> http://motherboard.vice.com/read/the-rise-of-political-doxing
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>
>>>>>>>
> Last week, CIA director John O. Brennan became the latest victim
>>>>>>> of what's become a popular way to embarrass and harass
>>>>>>> people on the internet. A hacker allegedly broke into his
>>>>>>> AOL account and published emails and documents found
>>>>>>> inside, many of them personal and sensitive.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> It's called doxing—sometimes doxxing—from the word 
>>>>>>> "documents." It emerged in the 1990s as a hacker revenge 
>>>>>>> tactic, and has since been as a tool to harass and
>>>>>>> intimidate people on the internet. Someone would threaten
>>>>>>> a woman with physical harm, or try to incite others to
>>>>>>> harm her, and publish her personal information as a way
>>>>>>> of saying "I know a lot about you—like where you live and
>>>>>>> work." Victims of doxing talk about the fear that this
>>>>>>> tactic instills. It's very effective, by which I mean
>>>>>>> that it's horrible.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Brennan's doxing was slightly different. Here, the
>>>>>>> attacker had a more political motive. He wasn't out to
>>>>>>> intimidate Brennan; he simply wanted to embarrass him.
>>>>>>> His personal papers were dumped indiscriminately, fodder
>>>>>>> for an eager press. This doxing was a political act, and
>>>>>>> we're seeing this kind of thing more and more.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Lots of people will have to face the publication of
>>>>>>> personal correspondence, documents, and information they
>>>>>>> would rather be private
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Last year, the government of North Korea allegedly did
>>>>>>> this to Sony. Hackers the FBI believes were working for
>>>>>>> North Korea broke into the company's networks, stole a
>>>>>>> huge amount of corporate data, and published it. This
>>>>>>> included unreleased movies, financial information,
>>>>>>> company plans, and personal emails. The reputational
>>>>>>> damage to the company was enormous; the company estimated
>>>>>>> the cost at $41 million.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> In July, hackers stole and published sensitive documents 
>>>>>>> from the cyberweapons arms manufacturer Hacking Team.
>>>>>>> That same month, different hackers did the same thing to
>>>>>>> the infidelity website Ashley Madison. In 2014, hackers
>>>>>>> broke into the iCloud accounts of over 100 celebrities
>>>>>>> and published personal photographs, most containing some
>>>>>>> nudity. In 2013, Edward Snowden doxed the NSA.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> These aren't the first instances of politically
>>>>>>> motivated doxing, but there's a clear trend. As people
>>>>>>> realize what an effective attack this can be, and how an
>>>>>>> individual can use the tactic to do considerable damage
>>>>>>> to powerful people and institutions, we're going to see a
>>>>>>> lot more of it.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> On the internet, attack is easier than defense. We're
>>>>>>> living in a world where a sufficiently skilled and
>>>>>>> motivated attacker will circumvent network security. Even
>>>>>>> worse, most internet security assumes it needs to defend
>>>>>>> against an opportunistic attacker who will attack the
>>>>>>> weakest network in order to get—for example—a pile of
>>>>>>> credit card numbers. The notion of a targeted attacker,
>>>>>>> who wants Sony or Ashley Madison or John Brennan because
>>>>>>> of what they stand for, is still new. And it's even
>>>>>>> harder to defend against.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> What this means is that we're going to see more
>>>>>>> political doxing in the future, against both people and
>>>>>>> institutions. It's going to be a factor in elections.
>>>>>>> It's going to be a factor in anti-corporate activism.
>>>>>>> More people will find their personal information exposed
>>>>>>> to the world: politicians, corporate executives,
>>>>>>> celebrities, divisive and outspoken individuals.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Of course they won't all be doxed, but some of them
>>>>>>> will. Some of them will be doxed directly, like Brennan.
>>>>>>> Some of them will be inadvertent victims of a doxing
>>>>>>> attack aimed at a company where their information is
>>>>>>> stored, like those celebrities with iPhone accounts and
>>>>>>> every customer of Ashley Madison. Regardless of the
>>>>>>> method, lots of people will have to face the publication
>>>>>>> of personal correspondence, documents, and information
>>>>>>> they would rather be private.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> In the end, doxing is a tactic that the powerless can 
>>>>>>> effectively use against the powerful. It can be used for 
>>>>>>> whistleblowing. It can be used as a vehicle for social 
>>>>>>> change. And it can be used to embarrass, harass, and 
>>>>>>> intimidate. Its popularity will rise and fall on this 
>>>>>>> effectiveness, especially in a world where prosecuting
>>>>>>> the doxers is so difficult.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> There's no good solution for this right now. We all have
>>>>>>> the right to privacy, and we should be free from doxing.
>>>>>>> But we're not, and those of us who are in the public eye
>>>>>>> have no choice but to rethink our online data shadows.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>> Political figures in most countries have been using their 
>>>>>> personal email accounts to conduct business 'under the
>>>>>> radar' in order to avoid information being subject to
>>>>>> oversight, most probably because its illegal,
>>>>>> unconstitutional or at the very least not good for the
>>>>>> image of governments.
>>>>>
>>>>>> When they started to do this, they threw the book on ethics
>>>>>> in the bin and opened themselves up to any abuse of their
>>>>>> personal life that may happen.
>>>>>
>>>>>> If people in power act properly in their professional
>>>>>> dealings then their is an argument against d0xing their
>>>>>> personal information but once they start to try to hide
>>>>>> information then it's open season on every aspect of their
>>>>>> life.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>
>>>
> 
> 

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From mirimir at riseup.net  Sun Nov  1 19:55:54 2015
From: mirimir at riseup.net (Mirimir)
Date: Sun, 1 Nov 2015 20:55:54 -0700
Subject: Value of Earth Human Life
In-Reply-To: <5636D4AD.1070707@gothic.com.au>
References: <CAD2Ti2_BYEkPis9yGqhMUC-NNVAueAWCvm1v7awDTW8sLRv+ew@mail.gmail.com>
 <2016477829.396270.1446369912828.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com>
 <5636C99B.3060807@riseup.net> <5636D4AD.1070707@gothic.com.au>
Message-ID: <5636DECA.6010709@riseup.net>

On 11/01/2015 08:12 PM, goran at gothic.com.au wrote:
> And you reckon that there'll be an island to retire to in such case?
> 
> Goran

Maybe so, maybe no. Maybe New Zealand? The southern hemisphere would
probably escape the worst fallout, because inter-hemispheric mixing is
relatively slow. Short-lived stuff would decay before it got there.

> On 02/11/2015 13:25, Mirimir wrote:
>> On 11/01/2015 02:25 AM, jim bell wrote:
>>
>> <SNIP>
>>
>>> While the first few collected rewards would probably be in the tens
>>> of thousands of dollars range, after a few hundred are collected I
>>> think the price could easily drop to the low thousands.
>>
>> Really? Let's say that there was a viable AP system. What would bids be
>> like for top US officials? There are maybe a couple billion people who
>> want them dead. Even at $1 each, that's a lot of money!
>>
>> Also, consider the potential for collateral damage. Let's say that I'm
>> the captain of a Russian nuclear sub. The aggregate value of the US
>> Congress might hit $100 billion, no? So what might I do? First, kill my
>> crew, after making suitable arrangements. Then nuke Washington, and
>> collect my winnings. Maybe drop out for a few years in some deep part of
>> the Pacific. Then buy an island, and retire.
>>
>> <SNIP>
>>
>>
> 
> 




From l at odewijk.nl  Sun Nov  1 13:08:30 2015
From: l at odewijk.nl (=?UTF-8?Q?Lodewijk_andr=C3=A9_de_la_porte?=)
Date: Sun, 1 Nov 2015 22:08:30 +0100
Subject: Shiny stuff and designer societies
In-Reply-To: <5633e047.b3588c0a.28e5f.1db7@mx.google.com>
References: <CAHWD2rJNTxt2+=0rPkkc+323pTn-njkvJVgUE624LShu2xg1Eg@mail.gmail.com>
 <150b0aeef50.276e.4d489027c0c4d0c1b1ca03a1f48f1ffb@misanthropia.org>
 <20151028231728.1A96CC00019@frontend1.nyi.internal>
 <CAOsGNSThwv=c9K4v4HkD27PD+wY9+XykyTNOWs=7FOwPpxctZw@mail.gmail.com>
 <150b1290920.276e.4d489027c0c4d0c1b1ca03a1f48f1ffb@misanthropia.org>
 <20151029013945.C7D9FC00012@frontend1.nyi.internal>
 <CAHWD2rLJ0RgxcGZi=mKD=OfYYtCy1j9sfbzDKOVZuuX5EPCnJg@mail.gmail.com>
 <56327869.361f8c0a.efb1c.692d@mx.google.com>
 <CAHWD2rLBHnMHYnLZfYWfvvY9vQnxxrTp5Pk88H5mFoXO6+KW7g@mail.gmail.com>
 <5633e047.b3588c0a.28e5f.1db7@mx.google.com>
Message-ID: <CAHWD2r+h3OsK0eAhU50PnRVBv-tULNWqQbYFbkOyqMyeAdOSDQ@mail.gmail.com>

I rather like this calmer tone. It makes it much easier to think about what
you're saying.

2015-10-30 22:32 GMT+01:00 Juan <juan.g71 at gmail.com>:

> On Thu, 29 Oct 2015 22:23:39 +0100
> Lodewijk andré de la porte <l at odewijk.nl> wrote:
>
>
> >         So a criminal monopoly is going to define what 'justice' is,
> > >         and enforce it, too.
> > >
> >
> > What's worse, it'll redefine criminal!
>
>         Of course. So, why should any sane person support such a
>         system?
>

Because it helps you. Consistently applied and effective justice reduces
the crime rates. By defining crime to be behaviors that are:

* Game theory wise bad - like driving (very) fast being good for you, bad
for everyone else. Or contract enforcement - having serious enforcement
even for less valuable contracts is very hard (=expensive) to do. The edge
of acceptable is sought, and usually differs significantly per person.
(Asbestos processing company CEO saying it's a good thing workers are
unaware of the dangers, it makes for greater profit, and therefore prevents
informing the workers. Past the line? Maybe, but it was legal and didn't
cause public retaliation*)

* Fragile but preferable - no petty theft (like jackets) makes it much
easier to be in shared spaces, but any enforcement is more expensive than
the jacket stolen. It's very hard to prevent petty theft. But also
shoplifting, being honest about products (Volkswagen's lies might've forced
other manufacturers to perform fraud), etc

* Simply too unkind - fraud, murder, serious harassment (although the
border is hard to place), theft of freedom (rape is both harassment and
theft of freedom), (not all but many ways of) causing pain or injury, etc

I think it's important to create law that's conservative and very morally
and ethically neutral. For me that's the difference between being a force
for evil and a force for good.

I ran into a fascinating example yesterday, a group of women was mad a
friend for leaving without saying she would (which is a strange thing to
do, why not say bye?), and for leaving with a guy although she has a
boyfriend. I don't know her boyfriend arrangement, or how they're doing,
but seemingly that made no difference in the first place. They were forming
a loyal monogamy cartel! They did not respect their friend's ethical/moral
choice. But I can't say it was entirely unreasonable, if she claimed to be
exclusive to the guy it's probably very unkind.

To clarify; this was a case of micro-oppression. Their friends were clearly
intend on excluding her and otherwise sanctioning her for her behavior,
although her behavior was, well, her conscious choice. They could've
decided not to care about her, and they wouldn't be upset about her
leaving. But they cared and sanctioned instead. If you don't like a person
you should attempt to disconnect and isolate first, I think.

I think justice should not depend upon ethics very much at all. If it does
it should incorporate the ethics of those involved into it's judgement, but
if you do this justice will become arbitrary complex and faults are likely.
(faulty justice is severe unkindness)

* justice increases the cost of retaliation - this is one of the biggest
disadvantages. An eye for several eyes might seem pretty reasonable as for
retaliation, but we punish this severely everywhere now. (I'd prefer not
wasting an eye) (real world: you may not stop NAM - a Dutch natural gas
company - from draining so much gas beneath the earth underneath your feet
that the earth gives way and fills the void with your house, because the
gas draining is legal, because it's hard to estimate the risk of pumping
the gas, and because it's very profitable (maybe worth more than the house
anyway))

>         You can keep repeating absurd, mainstream propaganda without
> > >         any regard to logic, but what's the point? What can you
> > >         achieve?
> > >
> >
> > Complex agreements, abstaining from violence, huge organizations, etc.
> > These are valuable, aren't they?
>
>         Abstaining from violence? States are the most violent
>         organizations on the planet.


It's a fucking for virginity kind of thing. And it's because our states are
so well matched - you need only be comfortably more armstrong than the
other wrestlers. (why that means you need to be able to nuke the entire
enemy a few times over, even after considering countermeasures, well, uhm,
we all make mistakes. Either that or the propaganda lies about the
countermeasures' effectiveness! So, is the USGOV incompetent or shrewd? )


> As to the complex arrangements
>         that can exist in a society, you don't need the state to
>         have them.
>

True, but we have made it far easier by ways of state. Certain arrangements
are impossible without an allmighty third party. For example, you will
never expend 100 euro's to retrieve 50. So, a promise of paying 50 euro's
is not a very good promise if there's no cheaper way of enforcing that
payment. This is often possible, through reputation or the like, but not
always, and it's always difficult (=costs).

Having a third party say "I'll suffer any expense, and I sure can, to
ensure the enforcement of this promise, and will be sure punish the
violator severely", means the total enforcement cost becomes 0 - not even a
fool will challenge an adversary that truly means that.

That entity needn't be the state, but it's better the more
disproportionately powerful it is. Also because of vagueness. In "maybe
more powerful" situations a test of power is sometimes required. And if
there's more than two powerful parties they will weaken oneself with such a
test. (what doesn't kill you wounds you still)


>         It's also debatable why huge organizations are 'valuable'.
>

Economies of scale is one reason. The other is singular ginormous efforts.
The pyramids are an example, but also the space race, this boat
<https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/e/e5/Barzan_%28ship%2C_2015%29_03.jpg>,
terraforming projects, and huge softwares too. And soon astroid mining,
space solar, eradication of certain diseases, etc, etc, etc, etc

Not just commerce; CERN is awesome!

(but big is also scary)


> > Ideally, there's a political game that is able to generate
> > "appropriate" political choices. It's not a republic, a trade union,
> > tribal understandings, etc, etc, per se, but there's always something.
> >
> > Without this system we are screwed anyway.
>
>
>         That's vague. What system are you alluding to, and who is 'we'?
>

It's tricky. I meant that, one way or another, we arrive at "political"
decisions. One could say that the parts involved in arriving at that
decision are a system. If the system sucks, we're screwed.

It's much better to have a system that generates "appropriate" choices.
Sometimes the right choice is undefined, but a choice must be made still.
For example; a carbon emission auctioning system, which is the right choice
given Capitalism, Game Theory and something bad increasing with carbon
emission, is not implementable without filling out an essential parameter,
how bad do we accept things to get?

Like, maybe I'm okay trading an "idyllic truly empty desert" for "cesspool
of all things poisonous" if we profit a lot from it. ( if value of desert <
value of cesspool + value of profit.) CNGOV decided that was a good trade,
and I (strongly) agree. The BBC
<http://www.bbc.com/future/story/20150402-the-worst-place-on-earth> did
not. (lake here
<https://www.google.com/maps/place/40%C2%B037'32.9%22N+109%C2%B040'10.1%22E/@40.6257967,109.66948,5179m/data=!3m1!1e3!4m2!3m1!1s0x0:0x0>
)

(game theory and fluctuating public opinion makes natural protection not a
good thing to leave to markets)


> If we do have that system
> > we *should* use it.
>
>         Statism? That system is designed to benefit special interests.
>         Unless you belong to some special faction, it won't do you any
>         good.
>

I meant, if we have a good way to generate general interest choices (or,
idk, "appropriate" interest choices) then we should use it.

I think the "special interest" should be humanity as a whole, averaged with
SUM(PERSON_i)


> > And we can use it to determine the absolute widest boundaries of what
> > is permitted, boundaries which you may not wander out of.
>
>         Determine, how?
>

Through the political system. It depends on the system of course.

Related;
I think we can produce a formal logic for politics. It can model the
effects of a policy choice, and project them into a single dimension. The
single dimension is "desirability" or "euro's", it's supposed to be the
same thing anyway.

It'll be very challenging to do that formal logic properly. I don't think
it's useful in every situation. Mapping is easy for economic situations,
but very hard for emotions.

Particularly challenging would be, say, family law. When is it reasonable
to split a family? When Suffering_family < Suffering_society? Not if you
prefer to leave people alone, then it's Suffering_family + neutrality_bias
< Suffering_society. Also, both Suffering_family and Suffering_society will
be the results of combining a very large amount of factors.

One could model the amount of coercion upon an actor, how much a tax
exemption would create incentives.

I'm sorry for not having good examples. My understanding of formal logic is
not that great, and I haven't actually tried to model a government's
considerations. I think formal logic is the successor of "legalese", harder
to speak and read, but once the mapping and relating is done the reasoning
is absolute. Much easier to find mistakes, be precise, and much harder to
make mistakes regarding governance.

(note: formal logics dealing with fuzziness are even much harder to
write/read, but will be a definite must)


> > We can produce incentive schemes, to encourage the correct behavior.
>
>         What is the 'correct' behaviour?
>

For the system's actors to behave as they should, as determined by the
system. In a republic a politician is intended to act in the best interest
of its supporters. Businesses can at times provide great enough incentive
to causes them to act otherwise.


> > In fact, if the system works it needs no restrictions.
> >
> > We've yet to find a system that works.
>
>         Define 'works'.
>

Does what it says on the tin.


> > >         Come on Lodewijk. Why don't you do your homework? Learn the
> > > ABC of poltical theory.
> >
> > I tried doing homework, but the books were full of propaganda.
>
>         Well yes, there are varying levels of propaganda in political
>         philosophy. There are some sound principles too.
>
>         You think people should be free, and things organized according
>         to 'market principles' in some areas, but not in others.
>         Problem is, being 'free' to follow arbitrary rules isn't
>         exactly freedom.
>

Freedom is not very strongly defined anyway. It means you can't be "forced"
to do something, but it's very rare for death not to be an alternative
choice. Reality narrows our choices most significantly, but through law and
enforcement we can change the "economic landscape" and cause what once was
the best choice ('deepest valley') to become only meh, or very not good
('high ridge'). I guess freedom is when you have no (clear) optimal
choices, which isn't actually preferable.

But I think we understand people so badly that it's better to make them
responsible for their own mistakes, rather than sometimes make a wrong
choice for them. As our understanding of "the human condition" grows, so
does our ability to make choices that are actually better according to
certain measures (certain measures because nihilism informs clearly that
nothing truly matters). Perhaps freedom is being allowed to choose the
measure.

Mathematically it makes sense to have competition and free markets. In
practice the actors do not obey perfectly, and cause a lot of reality.
Additionally, while a market is finding it's optimum (the best way to do a
certain thing) competition actually has significant cost. Sometimes reality
shifts faster than markets anneal, and we get stuck with a lot of
competition instead of expediting that energy to moving towards the ideal
solution. (also game theory)


> > Do tell me Juan, how do we prevent a "criminal monopoly"? Isn't it
> > better to make a very good "criminal monopoly"?
>
>         Literally? A very good criminal monopoly would excel at being
>         criminal. I don't think that's what you want?
>

There you go using criminal as if it means something :)

Uhm, the ideal criminal monopoly, to me, would be criminal enough to ensure
it's own existence, and do things I like as well. Like advancing humanity.
(competing with the aliens that might already be underway, or finding a way
for them to want to join our superior political system so we may advance
together against yet more aliens that might not exist, and then to delay
the heat death of the universe, I suppose)


> > > > But, there is no nations.
> > >
> > > Ah, so your monopoly of crime is going to tyranize the whole
> > > planet. Cute.
> > >
> >
> > The system spans the globe, the crimes are all the peoples'.
>
>
>         Whatever. A world state is a pretty bad idea.
>

Depends on what it does. It sure beats having competing governments.
Racism, inflation and excessive military power are what you get, not much
more afaik. (and replication of efforts)


> > I have the right because I can. Powers *are* rights.
>
>         That's not what 'right(s)' means. Or rather that's the kind of
>         'rights' that governments rely upon. Arbitrary dictates backed
>         by force.


Rights are defined by government, a self restraint alike "I'll never drink
again". But I don't think that's very meaningful. Rights are supposed to be
impossible to violate. If the government is incapable of violating the
right, then it's a right. But by that point it's synonymous with a
citizen's power. In practice "rights" are barriers, not absolute restraints.

Ugh, linguistics.

        You are misunderstanding what natural rights are. Natural
>         rights are a more legalistic description of common sense
>         morality.
>
>         You can probably kill a few random people right now if you
>         want. Say, use a car to run people over. But the fact that you
>         *can* kill people means killing people is morally right?
>
>         Same thing with natural rights. The fact that natural rights
>         can be violated doesn't mean they don't exist.
>

Natural rights are entirely different from rights. It is as you say, a plea
for encoding some specific morality into law. Claiming something is a
natural right seems to imply that it's been a right since before the
politics determined what is and isn't a right. I think it's pretty
meaningless, but I deeply empathize with the emotions involved.

I could hear myself screaming that my natural rights are being violated.
(as a futile plea after I give up hope)


> > Ask the pigs, cows, rabbits, ferrits, birds, and all the other
> > animals we do whatever we want to.
>
>         We are not talking about political philosophy applied
>         to non-human animals right now.
>

I think if humans have natural rights, then why don't animals? Maybe you
think they do, maybe you think they don't. But the same goes for humans,
some people think something should be a right, some people don't. But for
justice to be applied consistently we need there to be a clearly defined
set of rules, so we should agree upon that set of rules. We're not very
good at it :(


> > Ask the mountains thought to have
> > spirits.
>
>         That's a poetic license.
>

Can't ignore a mountain's natural rights, man.



> > Listen to them and you will hear but weeping for lack of
> > strength.
> >
> > Ofc, I'm the asshole for saying this.
>
>         Well, at least you are sincere...
>

Thanks!


>         I would point out (again) that  1) your understanding of
>         natural rights isn't...right. 2) that even current states
>         pretend to get their powers from 'natural rights'.
>

I think my understanding is still not aligned. What states pretend to get
their powers from 'natural rights'? I thought it used to be "God played
lottery and my name came up" for kings, queens and pharaohs. And at some
point that line could just be omitted because of legacy/buy-in.

I think when a (messenger of) the state comes up and goes "you better pay
your tax or I'll whip your ass" then that's, well, where they get their
power, and natural rights don't really come into the whipping.


>         It's called 'representative government' and it's allegedly
>         based on 'consent'. Look it up =P


Pretty sure it's more about whipping.

If it really was consent I could send a letter to the king informing him
I've had enough of his shit and I'll just fend for myself in the western
sahara, or on a boat or something, but I think they'll still come get me if
I break the law ((most) Dutch law applies to citizens abroad).


> > I think in practice it will be easier to make the system a compelling
> > opt-in. If you don't want to be in it, it is probably not good
> > enough.
>
>         Oh that's a good point. So now you wearing your anarchist hat?
>         =P
>

It's my plan for world domination. I just make a system that's so nice
everyone will come running. Probably easier than whipping everyone into
obedience. It could even be no-conflict with the governments, running two
systems in parallel until either gets attention starved.

> >         It's a 'necessary evil'? (doubly retarded since you don't
> > >         believe in 'evil' eh? )
> >
> > I honestly do not know.
> >
> > This is a very complex issue spanning all industries. I think the
> > patent system is a steaming pile of mercantile shit. The core idea is
> > not so crazy though - idea's can be stolen, so they must be property.
> > But you don't lose the idea when it gets stolen.
> >
> > It ruins the creative industries - we've made our fantasies protected
> > property, subject not to the potential for art but the will of
> > businessmen. Countless stories go untold. The stories that do get
> > told are smudged with corporate inserts and ruinous inserted
> > political messages. (look for racism/feminist inserts, they're
> > everywhere and they usually fail to actually be unracist or feminist)
>
>         Yep.
>

Thanks for showing me the word mercantile. It's like a newspeak
thinkbarrier is lifted.

> I don't see where this goes. Perhaps a powers = rights argument?
>
>         It's a reductio ad absurdum of the  "power = rights" argument.
>
>         "might makes right" is sarcasm, not a literal statement.
>

Ah, yes. The syntactic similarity of right and rights.
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From coderman at gmail.com  Sun Nov  1 23:38:21 2015
From: coderman at gmail.com (coderman)
Date: Sun, 1 Nov 2015 23:38:21 -0800
Subject: FOIPA adventures
In-Reply-To: <CAJVRA1TbbVJ-88nHq0GKMhS5Z3GQ+=jCqv2E49FS=4L2+xQeFg@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAJVRA1SaJpNaPQx=s_7VVM==ony2sH0aUG3w11cjNX6escSm8w@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAJVRA1TUfu40206TOzK2kBsgCvbgBYYXmyKZ3E5n4KQuoEtZyg@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAJVRA1QtgMky_hsDLsmFwiXcxE528bZaDOQsjTqqj4tR-dbGBQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAJVRA1RwoyoRs-REWnhGd8cHZM6EJvcziTUDXbU5A6TMigOT6A@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAJVRA1Rwaq1fvE8p-s1JwOANvMc7X2E75bx5eNd4KGJapt6Nuw@mail.gmail.com>
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 <CAJVRA1Q0SDo9Fj3KAU9vA3cxR2=7pwcdpO3Ex=yi6g2WtRAg6A@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAJVRA1Srrb08Z9XvG+rYq30p2E_MnhJA6ynOLpdT--6gCvwiyQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAJVRA1RXD2dr16TJZK-MPcJm7nR0Ov=Dp9i5Anf5hKNFs2hq7w@mail.gmail.com>
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 <CAJVRA1RbeuzfiVAOqaZ15p8kr67jxcBoNMOrJkt3K86_=FuVXw@mail.gmail.com>
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Message-ID: <CAJVRA1QeKbn+=KbMUNnDhV8Cox=6i7nUypJ5gxuiJ=zf2CYbxw@mail.gmail.com>

new queries regarding classification guides; seeking to collect the whole set!

Count of the number of Classification Guides produced by Original
Classification Authorities (OCAs) on behalf of the Attorney General
within the DoJ per Executive Order 13526- Original Classification
Authority. Please provide a count of classification guides in use by
the Department for the years 2010 through 2015, inclusive, as
available. Thank you!
 - https://www.muckrock.com/foi/united-states-of-america-10/guidedincrements-22194/

Count of the number of Classification Guides produced by Original
Classification Authorities (OCAs) on behalf of the Secretary of
Homeland Security within the Department per Executive Order 13526-
Original Classification Authority. Please provide a count of
classification guides in use by the Department for the years 2010
through 2015, inclusive, as available. Thank you!
 - https://www.muckrock.com/foi/united-states-of-america-10/guidedincrements-22195/

Count of the number of Classification Guides produced by Original
Classification Authorities (OCAs) on behalf of the Director of the
Central Intelligence Agency (CIA) per Executive Order 13526- Original
Classification Authority. Please provide a count of classification
guides in use by the Agency for the years 2010 through 2015,
inclusive, as available. Thank you!
 - https://www.muckrock.com/foi/united-states-of-america-10/guidedincrements-22196/

Count of the number of Classification Guides produced by Original
Classification Authorities (OCAs) on behalf of the Secretary of State
within the Department per Executive Order 13526- Original
Classification Authority. Please provide a count of classification
guides in use by the Department for the years 2010 through 2015,
inclusive, as available. Thank you!
 - https://www.muckrock.com/foi/united-states-of-america-10/guidedincrements-22197/

Count of the number of Classification Guides produced by Original
Classification Authorities (OCAs) on behalf of the Secretary of
Defense per Executive Order 13526- Original Classification Authority.
Please provide a count of classification guides in use by the
Department for the years 2010 through 2015, inclusive, as available.
Thank you!
 - https://www.muckrock.com/foi/united-states-of-america-10/guidedincrements-22198/

Count of the number of Classification Guides produced by Original
Classification Authorities (OCAs) on behalf of the Executive Office of
the President per Executive Order 13526- Original Classification
Authority. Please include Classification Guides produced on behalf of
The Assistant to the President and Chief of Staff, The Assistant to
the President for National Security Affairs (National Security
Advisor), The Assistant to the President for Homeland Security and
Counterterrorism, The Director of National Drug Control Policy, The
Director, Office of Science and Technology Policy, The Chair or
Co-Chairs, President's Intelligence Advisory Board within scope of
this request for count of all Classification Guides produced on behalf
of the Executive Office of the President. Please provide a count of
classification guides in use by the Department for the years 2010
through 2015, inclusive, as available. Thank you!
 - https://www.muckrock.com/foi/united-states-of-america-10/guidedincrements-22199/

Count of the number of Classification Guides produced by Original
Classification Authorities (OCAs) on behalf of the Secretary of Energy
within the Department per Executive Order 13526- Original
Classification Authority. Please provide a count of classification
guides in use by the Department for the years 2010 through 2015,
inclusive, as available. Thank you!
 - https://www.muckrock.com/foi/united-states-of-america-10/guidedincrements-22200/

Count of the number of Classification Guides produced by Original
Classification Authorities (OCAs) on behalf of the Director of
National Intelligence within the Department per Executive Order 13526-
Original Classification Authority. Please provide a count of
classification guides in use by the Department for the years 2010
through 2015, inclusive, as available. Thank you!
 - https://www.muckrock.com/foi/united-states-of-america-10/guidedincrements-22201/


best regards,




From grarpamp at gmail.com  Sun Nov  1 20:49:41 2015
From: grarpamp at gmail.com (grarpamp)
Date: Sun, 1 Nov 2015 23:49:41 -0500
Subject: The BlackList
In-Reply-To: <5636C19D.5060801@riseup.net>
References: <563552F7.7000103@openmailbox.org>
 <1618172215.394932.1446357637717.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com>
 <5635b6e3.0e138c0a.148ca.ffffc02f@mx.google.com>
 <CAJVRA1TaCAX_oYkHmFEDCj+Evj8C_-_vnOZaVq_f6DD7+J01iA@mail.gmail.com>
 <5635be08.53528c0a.6a953.ffffc32a@mx.google.com>
 <CAJVRA1Tj_0Q9jaLMKXzkgEe5TaQz_K1=X4e6MJkh36k1-06L8w@mail.gmail.com>
 <5635c7f4.c548370a.33e6a.10f6@mx.google.com>
 <CAJVRA1StNCiLmupBJ9FvB-j9Sybcv3rDEBLyrTrQzSou5=GfHw@mail.gmail.com>
 <563679ef.44e88c0a.4bc59.fffff577@mx.google.com> <5636C19D.5060801@riseup.net>
Message-ID: <CAD2Ti2-nW7LkP_rjAj_V4yN7bp3fxqF0RFuMc=O3KUzh5SGt7A@mail.gmail.com>

On Sun, Nov 1, 2015 at 8:51 PM, Mirimir <mirimir at riseup.net> wrote:
> would draw TLAs to Tor like dogs to shit. And they would cooperate.
>
> Also, how would bidders pay anonymously when targets were killed? There

> But I am certain that many bidders
> would go down, through cluelessness or system compromise.

Is not the goal of AP to take out the mark, or at least to estimate
the perceived value in doing so. So whatever happens before or
after that to the bidder and contractor is irrelavent, they evaluated
their risks and endeavoured to conduct a mutually beneficial
transaction. If their evaluation of risk was not sound, that's their problem.
But for the transactions that do execute, the mark is still dead
and both goals have been met.

As Jim alluded, there is often a free speech component to any
non-executed prediction. And a market can be any number of markets
containing any number of offers, including 1 offer in each of 10 markets.
Some markets will see user traffic, others will be shutdown. Maybe some
will be purely p2p with reputation of makers and takers floating in signed
metadata.

A side goal of AP is to put enough money into it such that people
do research, develop and deply a suitable marketplace that will
withstand investigation. Right now there are at least 10 viable darknet
markets offering a variety of sex, drugs, money, contraband, kopimi,
and guns... and business is booming by all accounts.
Actions up to and including murder aren't that much distant from
those in terms of what politicians claim to be repulsed at and "at war"
with. In fact, the penalties for those now are often more than for
being a party to killing someone.




From ryacko at gmail.com  Mon Nov  2 01:22:30 2015
From: ryacko at gmail.com (Ryan Carboni)
Date: Mon, 2 Nov 2015 01:22:30 -0800
Subject: The BlackList
Message-ID: <CAO7N=i2U-cFq0mzfFMTSCaKoKOcD15ETRgbJnF6KxzKPHJ=+3w@mail.gmail.com>

> On 11/01/2015 01:52 PM, Juan wrote:
> > On Sun, 1 Nov 2015 01:16:15 -0700
> > coderman <coderman at gmail.com> wrote:
> >
> >> On 11/1/15, Juan <juan.g71 at gmail.com> wrote:
> >>> ...
> >>>     It seems (kinda obvious) to me that to get rid of 'high
> >>>     ranking' targets you need a 'professional' service, agree?
> >>
> >> no, this is movie plot thinking.
> >
> >       Ha. That's a funny remark because I was just thinking that AP
> >       does sound like literary fiction so far.
>
> Well, the idea has been kicked around for 20 years, and little has come
> of it. Maybe that's because it's still unworkable. How are people going
> to bid anonymously? Is Tor good enough for that? A viable AP market
> would draw TLAs to Tor like dogs to shit. And they would cooperate.
>
> Also, how would bidders pay anonymously when targets were killed? There
> is no inherently anonymous payment system that's widely available. Maybe
> anonymized Bitcoin, after a few mixes through Tor, would make the nut.
> Or maybe creative carding. Maybe y'all reading this could manage it. But
> what about the clueless masses who might be motivated to bid?
>
> I don't know whether AP would take down governments. Hell, I'm not even
> sure whether that would be prudent. But I am certain that many bidders
> would go down, through cluelessness or system compromise.

The theory, I thought, was a simple prediction market. Based on
actuarial statistics by Social Security, people usually have less than
a 1% chance of dying per year (Fidel Castro seems to have a 0%
chance), so guessing the right death year is pretty "lucky".

The person who guesses correctly would receive the pot of money.

The real problem is that the prediction market will be regulated out
of existence. You have any idea how regulated the resale of life
insurance contracts are?

That and, how do you trust the prediction market? It has to be a
company with a mailing address, otherwise one could just run away with
the money.

Personally, I believe a good prediction market would be one limited to
predicting deaths and the overthrow of governments.




From zen at freedbms.net  Sun Nov  1 20:34:49 2015
From: zen at freedbms.net (Zenaan Harkness)
Date: Mon, 2 Nov 2015 04:34:49 +0000
Subject: Value of Earth Human Life
In-Reply-To: <CAD2Ti28OQB-wSK3gM8q-eumPN0vsqDeMwJNZH85ZJKfFiziFYw@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAD2Ti2_BYEkPis9yGqhMUC-NNVAueAWCvm1v7awDTW8sLRv+ew@mail.gmail.com>
 <2016477829.396270.1446369912828.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com>
 <CAD2Ti28OQB-wSK3gM8q-eumPN0vsqDeMwJNZH85ZJKfFiziFYw@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAOsGNST7Lkz8_byCCaGoFwQyELasBCnqoA=GynPQn7q6q7c24Q@mail.gmail.com>

On 11/1/15, grarpamp <grarpamp at gmail.com> wrote:
> On Sun, Nov 1, 2015 at 4:25 AM, jim bell <jdb10987 at yahoo.com> wrote:
>> over in just a few months, with the government(s) yelling, "We
>> surrender!".

> Establishing contracts for people to just take the day off and plead
> not guilty to get a real hearing and possible trial for their stupid $150
> revenue traffic ticket. There's nothing to lose by doing so.
> Right now the system is counting *entirely* on frictionless pleading
> guilty and paying out via credit card. The potential impact of well
> blogged reports of successes here is enormous.
>
> Paying people to hand out pamphlets about same on court steps.

Fantastic!

Now we're talking mainstream-able, market-able. I can see most people
will -not- race out and promote AP, but the little bounties for
"common sense system enslavement bucking" is salable by most people to
each other.

> And that's just educational possibilities at no cost to them.
> Once people see how the system works, and that they
> can win as a collective, things start changing. It's about
> getting the ball rolling and people up off their asses, little
> bounties here and there.

And with a single-click option to "pay it forward to the next
guy/gal", if it's "only" $150, some people would pay it forward,
thereby doubling the effectiveness of the initial contribution.

Others might double it up, adding their own bounty as well as paying
it forward, cause they like it so much.
Z




From coderman at gmail.com  Mon Nov  2 05:56:45 2015
From: coderman at gmail.com (coderman)
Date: Mon, 2 Nov 2015 05:56:45 -0800
Subject: FOIPA adventures
In-Reply-To: <CAJVRA1TbbVJ-88nHq0GKMhS5Z3GQ+=jCqv2E49FS=4L2+xQeFg@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAJVRA1SaJpNaPQx=s_7VVM==ony2sH0aUG3w11cjNX6escSm8w@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAJVRA1TUfu40206TOzK2kBsgCvbgBYYXmyKZ3E5n4KQuoEtZyg@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAJVRA1QtgMky_hsDLsmFwiXcxE528bZaDOQsjTqqj4tR-dbGBQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAJVRA1RwoyoRs-REWnhGd8cHZM6EJvcziTUDXbU5A6TMigOT6A@mail.gmail.com>
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 <CAJVRA1Q95CKTVahkfQeH_pwaGDcgJ-4OL2=9o5ckQrZLG8HeUA@mail.gmail.com>
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 <CAJVRA1Ry2EV7qaFHmZJ9cjm8-waCNBCzenO9BpqW+YKChEHX7w@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAJVRA1S5juVmB6Ouy0JWbdeJdj9yz0W6tKQDY2q_zi+AC461EA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAJVRA1SYO0ia4VGLwFwZFowkD75YR61MC1TNc1wzHbZtmhy1_w@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAJVRA1SqWMVy6m6KuiJWQQG_6XPWoB+86-p45PWKvfn8wg_jeA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAJVRA1RWaiCZtig6+Seyk-UN9M3h9+2iZ0Otnqb6n=AFcRAeRw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAJVRA1QzHeh=rs0hRf0sugLZdbXvAhK+2Yte5Tbt_Tnv5Tf8mg@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAJVRA1SdAW+36Z8yYTdSFTtz8S8U5aiELv5NiuXg5Rg-vaFYew@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAJVRA1Svk488ax6sd4oy52rfM_u_E1EuzhUAQt6cQ2Jy5yRx5g@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAJVRA1S4=X5P6hKnZu224GjseL5ws1vRm6Gk4gJ+DG06oLjaDA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAJVRA1RsgoKvADCcRz76vj1xjT+EQDB96tw7-sgg_pf+BGzA=A@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAJVRA1TOMYnBh0-B=uh6n2HsOsFdY+SKVG-=XqKi6WPNro++PA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAJVRA1Qao1qE2kBSbb_V5NPQ7PF--VFnYQpc=08wY2_ZURz4hg@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAJVRA1S45TEydVoKDxW9SfC0DKcSdxB_HfjrvcZQjU5uymfFOQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAD2Ti29j9qCnTCBEpaTj9B2NdWpLQoAiT02QzbitiART9tFg6A@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAJVRA1SAOUWi485z=_VRnhLu=EL1c8rVQOvdFz09-P4TjbLHww@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAJVRA1T0E3Lny4YPOjvvCtpSZOmx5dim+nw7e_Zzz-PYXNUAjg@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAJVRA1TtoL+tz0XYxNPSV7oE7HBVWORZ65Og6hrREQzreN6ozw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAJVRA1TbbVJ-88nHq0GKMhS5Z3GQ+=jCqv2E49FS=4L2+xQeFg@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAJVRA1SgZW8D2ZH-nhuHKsReynT-d8nDH4ttj5F5WcSiK6MmtA@mail.gmail.com>

interesting response,
 first time ever a request has been deemed "less complicated" ! :)

"We have a large backlog, our current administrative workload is 1,497
open requests. Included among these open cases are requests which are
less complex than others, such as your request. "
 - https://www.muckrock.com/foi/united-states-of-america-10/brightzenith-21350/




From Rayzer at riseup.net  Mon Nov  2 08:08:19 2015
From: Rayzer at riseup.net (Razer)
Date: Mon, 2 Nov 2015 08:08:19 -0800
Subject: =?UTF-8?Q?Meet_the_U.S._Defense_Firm_Supplying_Iran=e2=80=99s_Inter?=
 =?UTF-8?Q?net?=
Message-ID: <56378A73.6050308@riseup.net>

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From Rayzer at riseup.net  Mon Nov  2 08:21:47 2015
From: Rayzer at riseup.net (Razer)
Date: Mon, 2 Nov 2015 08:21:47 -0800
Subject: The BlackList
In-Reply-To: <CAOsGNSSGY0XnrgO0V5PjxFZYfNgsXxLa3pZPw5NKujUnhF5y6g@mail.gmail.com>
References: <5635b6e3.0e138c0a.148ca.ffffc02f@mx.google.com>
 <935312752.388847.1446365520386.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com>
 <5636700f.471c8d0a.3cebe.fffff425@mx.google.com>
 <CAOsGNSSGY0XnrgO0V5PjxFZYfNgsXxLa3pZPw5NKujUnhF5y6g@mail.gmail.com>
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From Rayzer at riseup.net  Mon Nov  2 11:20:47 2015
From: Rayzer at riseup.net (Razer)
Date: Mon, 2 Nov 2015 11:20:47 -0800
Subject: =?UTF-8?Q?Re:_Meet_the_U.S._Defense_Firm_Supplying_Iran=e2=80=99s_I?=
 =?UTF-8?Q?nternet?=
In-Reply-To: <20151102172536.GA2762@sivokote.iziade.m$>
References: <56378A73.6050308@riseup.net>
 <20151102172536.GA2762@sivokote.iziade.m$>
Message-ID: <5637B78F.1010901@riseup.net>



On 11/02/2015 09:25 AM, Georgi Guninski wrote:
> On Mon, Nov 02, 2015 at 08:08:19AM -0800, Razer wrote:
>> <html>
>>   <head>
>>
>>     <meta http-equiv="content-type" content="text/html; charset=utf-8">
>>   </head>
>>   <body bgcolor="#FFFFFF" text="#000000">
> Add 1000 troll points for html only.

Yeah well, I use Tbird and I cleaned up the copy/paste as well as I
could... You should have seen the formfield/social button mess.

RR

Ps. I checked for <script tags. There weren't any.



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From Rayzer at riseup.net  Mon Nov  2 11:23:03 2015
From: Rayzer at riseup.net (Razer)
Date: Mon, 2 Nov 2015 11:23:03 -0800
Subject: =?UTF-8?Q?Re:_Meet_the_U.S._Defense_Firm_Supplying_Iran=e2=80=99s_I?=
 =?UTF-8?Q?nternet?=
In-Reply-To: <CAGRDzQXMM4w_JbhMC6ShD8w_kN2ppy8MKDK=Om1q4Xdb0RwAKQ@mail.gmail.com>
References: <56378A73.6050308@riseup.net>
 <CAGRDzQXMM4w_JbhMC6ShD8w_kN2ppy8MKDK=Om1q4Xdb0RwAKQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <5637B817.7070108@riseup.net>



On 11/02/2015 09:26 AM, Cari Machet wrote:
> its not fucking 'unusual' 
>
> it is hilarious though - the depth of reporting #pathetic

"Link-based reporting". It's prolly safer that way,

RR
>
> On Mon, Nov 2, 2015 at 6:08 PM, Razer <Rayzer at riseup.net
> <mailto:Rayzer at riseup.net>> wrote:
>
>     http://www.thedailybeast.com/articles/2015/11/01/meet-the-u-s-defense-firm-supplying-iran-s-internet.html
>
>       * <https://plus.google.com/share?url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.thedailybeast.com%2Farticles%2F2015%2F11%2F01%2Fmeet-the-u-s-defense-firm-supplying-iran-s-internet.html%3Fvia%3Ddesktop%26social%3Dgoogleplus>
>
>
>           Disconnect
>
>     11.01.1512:01 AM ET
>
>
>       Meet the U.S. Defense Firm Supplying Iran’s Internet
>
>     A company that works for American spies and generals has quietly
>     started providing Internet service to the Islamic Republic. What’s
>     going on here?
>
>     Nestled in a suburban Washington, D.C.
>     <http://www.thedailybeast.com/articles/2015/08/01/what-jane-jacobs-got-wrong-about-cities.html>,
>     office park, across the street from a shopping mall, a technology
>     company that counts the U.S. Defense Department
>     <http://www.thedailybeast.com/articles/2015/10/27/the-u-s-war-casualties-the-pentagon-doesn-t-want-you-to-see.html>
>     as its biggest customer is charting out a new frontier: providing
>     Internet service to Iran.
>
>     But GTT Communications Inc.—headquartered in McLean, Virginia,
>     just a 15-minute drive from the headquarters of the CIA and hired
>     by various unnamed U.S. intelligence agencies and satellite
>     operators—hasn’t exactly been touting its new venture.
>
>     The company has issued no press release about its deal with an
>     undersea cable network that sells Internet services to Iran and
>     other Persian Gulf. (One of the cables comes ashore at the city of
>     Bushehr, home to a nuclear plant that’s been the subject of
>     intense debate about its role in Iran’s nuclear program.)
>
>     Instead, the partnership was announced
>     <http://twitter.com/GBI_Network/status/598225813419360256?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw>
>     in a single tweet last May; both parties have been largely silent
>     about the deal since then. When contacted by The Daily Beast for
>     details about the deal with the Doha-based submarine cable
>     operator, Gulf Bridge International, a GTT spokesperson said the
>     agreement wouldn’t be finalized for a few more weeks.
>
>     And yet technical data shows that GTT was providing Internet
>     service to Iran for months.
>
>     The Islamic Republic has been off limits to most U.S. companies
>     for years. A complex sanctions
>     <http://www.thedailybeast.com/articles/2015/07/14/nuke-deal-helps-qasem-soleimani-the-top-iranian-general-with-american-blood-on-his-hands.html>
>     regime
>     <http://www.thedailybeast.com/articles/2015/07/14/nuke-deal-helps-qasem-soleimani-the-top-iranian-general-with-american-blood-on-his-hands.html>,
>     meant in part to isolate the regime in Tehran and obstruct its
>     efforts to obtain a nuclear weapon, bars the sale of good and
>     services by many American companies, including through intermediaries.
>
>     But last year, the Treasury Department, which administers the
>     sanctions program, issued new rules (PDF
>     <http://www.treasury.gov/resource-center/sanctions/Programs/Documents/iran_gld1.pdf>)
>     authorizing the sale of “consumer-grade Intemet connectivity
>     services.” That created an opening for GTT, as well as any other
>     American companies that want to cash in on the Iranian market for
>     Internet service, which is booming thanks in large part to a surge
>     of new mobile phone users in the country.
>
>     The company began providing bandwidth to Iran’s state-owned
>     telecom company, TIC, via one of Gulf Bridge’s submarines cables
>     on June 10, Doug Madory, the director of analysis at Dyn, a
>     research company that monitors Internet connectivity, told The
>     Daily Beast. Notably, that was nearly a month before the U.S.,
>     Iran, and other world powers announced an agreement
>     <http://www.thedailybeast.com/articles/2015/04/02/it-ll-be-a-miracle-if-this-iran-nuke-deal-really-gets-done.html>
>     to curb Iran’s nuclear weapons program in exchange for lifting
>     some sanctions.
>
>     Only Iranian officials would know the exact percentage of Iran’s
>     Internet traffic that was flowing to and from GTT, said Madory,
>     who first noted
>     <http://research.dyn.com/2015/09/iran-latest-nation-to-host-critical-global-internet-infrastruture/#%21prettyPhoto>
>     the company’s presence in Iran last month. But, he said, the
>     Iranian Internet is effectively composed of about 5,000 network
>     routes, and at its peak in August, “GTT was handling anywhere from
>     some to all of the international traffic” to more than 1,800 of
>     those routes, or about 16.6 percent of the total.
>
>     So GTT was not some small-time provider.
>
>     Asked for more details about its work in Iran, the GTT
>     spokesperson, Ann Rote, said that she would be able to provide
>     specifics after the partnership was finalized.
>
>     But, Rote said, the company’s work violated no sanctions, and was
>     in line with “U.S. policy to facilitate the flow of information to
>     and from Iran.”
>
>         When contacted by The Daily Beast for details about the Iran
>         deal, a GTT spokesperson said the agreement wouldn’t be
>         finalized for a few more weeks. And yet technical data shows
>         that GTT was providing Internet service to Iran for months.
>
>     “GTT does not conduct any business in Iran or with the Government
>     of Iran,” Rote said. “Any Internet traffic coming from Iran and
>     transiting GTT’s global IP [Internet protocol] network is coming
>     indirectly from customers of wholesale or carrier partners in the
>     Middle East region.”
>
>     Technically, she’s right. GTT’s customer is Gulf Bridge
>     International, the undersea cable provider. But the technical data
>     strongly suggest that GTT knew—or should have known—that it was
>     providing service to the state telecom of Iran. And that’s a
>     crucial question, because while U.S. companies are allowed to sell
>     Internet service to Iran, they may not do so if they have
>     “knowledge or reason to know that such services … are intended for
>     the Government of Iran,” according to Treasury Department rules.
>     State-owned companies are also covered by that prohibition, two
>     lawyers who are expert in the sanctions rules told The Daily Beast.
>
>     In October, GTT was “transiting” 521 Iranian routes, Madory said,
>     meaning that at some level GTT was responsible for “propagating
>     these routes to the greater Internet.” Effectively, GTT was
>     advertising that route for traffic destined to particular Internet
>     addresses in Iran
>
>     But on October 5, the service abruptly stopped, apparently after
>     one of Gulf Bridge International’s cables was cut. The service has
>     not been restored, Madory said. Up until that point, it had been
>     going strong for nearly four months.
>
>     GTT’s service to Iran raises questions about why an American
>     Internet company with close ties to the U.S. government and
>     intelligence community would be selling off bandwidth to a country
>     that is still a major strategic adversary of the United States.
>
>     Despite the nuclear deal, Iran is providing the bulk of ground
>     forces to crush Syrian rebels opposed to Bashar al-Assad, and is
>     part of an emerging power axis with Russia, which has launched
>     <http://www.thedailybeast.com/articles/2015/09/29/u-s-to-putin-welcome-to-the-isis-quagmire.html>
>     airstrikes to keep the Syrian dictator in power and to keep
>     Moscow’s foothold in the Middle East.
>
>     But Iran is expanding economically—and digitally—as well. And that
>     presents an opportunity for American technology companies.
>
>     Since August 2014, when the Iran’s national telecom regulator
>     began awarding licenses for 3G and 4G mobile phone service,
>     subscriptions have surged, to about 20.5 million people last
>     month, Amy Cameron, a senior analyst with BMI Research, told The
>     Daily Beast. That’s about 27 percent of the country’s population,
>     the majority of which is under 30 and, presumably, eager to
>     embrace new technologies and the access to information that comes
>     with them.
>
>     The surge in mobile phone service is a big business, and Iran
>     needs more Internet addresses and access for all those new
>     devices, Cameron said. In addition to acquiring new service
>     routes—like the ones GTT provides—the government has also been
>     buying up Internet addresses that use the so-called “version 4”
>     <http://research.dyn.com/2015/04/ipv4-address-market-takes-off>
>     protocol, a vital, and increasingly scarce, component of the
>     world’s Internet infrastructure. And Iran plans to auction more
>     wireless broadband spectrum, which should in turn attract more
>     investment in mobile networks.
>
>     “All of these developments point towards Iran making concerted
>     efforts to open its Internet market,” Cameron said. Of course,
>     there are limits to that openness: Iran’s primary telecom company
>     is owned by the military, and the Tehran government monitors
>     communications for prohibited content.
>
>     All of which makes its affiliation with a telecom company in
>     suburban Washington even more unusual.
>
>     --30--
>
>
>
>
> -- 
> Cari Machet
> NYC 646-436-7795
> carimachet at gmail.com <mailto:carimachet at gmail.com>
> AIM carismachet
> Syria +963-099 277 3243
> Amman +962 077 636 9407
> Berlin +49 152 11779219
> Reykjavik +354 894 8650
> Twitter: @carimachet <https://twitter.com/carimachet>
>
> 7035 690E 5E47 41D4 B0E5 B3D1 AF90 49D6 BE09 2187
>
> Ruh-roh, this is now necessary: This email is intended only for the
> addressee(s) and may contain confidential information. If you are not the
> intended recipient, you are hereby notified that any use of this
> information, dissemination, distribution, or copying of this email
> without
> permission is strictly prohibited.
>
>


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From zen at freedbms.net  Mon Nov  2 04:46:37 2015
From: zen at freedbms.net (Zenaan Harkness)
Date: Mon, 2 Nov 2015 12:46:37 +0000
Subject: Anarchist roads and free travel
Message-ID: <CAOsGNSTCMr0p0Bko64boUy8A07kAgHjbO9FR5-3Ao7Kiyo49NA@mail.gmail.com>

Beginner anarchist alert. Wanting to get a better understanding of
possible outcomes.

On 11/1/15, intelemetry <intelemetry at openmailbox.org> wrote:
> Democracy is the tyranny of the majority, and assassination politics
> is dangerous in that regard when they are coupled. Private arbitration
> agreements with private security forces wherein mobility has
> reciprocal agreements (similar to current travel) seems more reasonable.

How would we handle road-building rent-seekers (i.e. those who would
collect tax/ rent for travel) - i.e. at the moment in Australia banks
give loans to private companies to build roads, which by illegal
(unconstitutional) contracts, massive rents/ taxes over many decades,
are collected from the population?

How would the idea of "all have a right to travel anonymously and
absolutely freely (free from tax, free from arbitrary punishment)" be
manifested in a political anarchy country?

How do we manifest a community wide idea of free travel (implying a
majority interest in infrastructure built and provided at cost) with
the freedom of "rent seekers" and "land owners/ infrastructure
builders" to "freely engage in construction and contract with
travelers upon the roads"?

Is this a prisoner's dilemma?

Although all our roads in Australia were free from "all evil tolls"
for much of a century, the rent seekers corrupted our politicians with
much greese, and now road tolls pop up all over the country. How would
political anarchism not "degrade" to the power of financial corruption
in a similar way as our demoncratic governments?

---
In Australia, our "democratic powers/ goverment" have facilitated
illegal contracts and multi decade rent seekers to tax the population
on roads already paid for by the government.

Notwithstanding that the jetsons era may make the question of roads
per se less relevant over time, this question in my mind arises
regarding political anarchism and what is termed 'natural monopolies',
in this specific thread, roads.

The Great Charter, or Magna Carta/ Charter, proscribes that there
shall "be no evil tolls" - which means no travel checkpoints requiring
fee payment, i.e. tax collection at point of passing, commonly today
called "road tolls" (at least in Australia). This was to protect
merchants against the taxing intention, and it is a given that this
also includes those not engaging in commerce but still traveling.

Here in Australia not only do we have the present day continuation of
the Magna Carta and the English Bill of Rights (and many other
Imperial Statutes) active within the jurisdictions of our states
(although most people are not aware of this, the courts and
legislation are aware of it) we also have Section 92 of our federal
constitution which states "trade commerce and intercourse [travel]
amongst the states, shall be absolutely free", which interpretation is
open to some debate in political circles despite how it reads to the
common man.

In Australia the Imperial Statutes are firmly entrenched thanks to:
- The Commonwealth of Australia Constitution Act (our federal
constitution) which invokes the Crown;
- The Imperial Acts Application Act (respectively, in each state, such
as New South Wales, Victoria, etc);
- The Australia High Court (our highest court) rulings of Mabo and in
particular Mabo 2 (I think 1999).

Despite what ought be protection, our demoncratic parliaments have
sold our roads to the highest bidder, which in our case is nearly
always Macquarie Bank.

Zenaan




From zen at freedbms.net  Mon Nov  2 04:56:08 2015
From: zen at freedbms.net (Zenaan Harkness)
Date: Mon, 2 Nov 2015 12:56:08 +0000
Subject: The BlackList
In-Reply-To: <CAGRDzQXHgNgQR358jHreMYj2tH_A2zX_fjQJF7NwVYReANTnGQ@mail.gmail.com>
References: <563552F7.7000103@openmailbox.org>
 <1618172215.394932.1446357637717.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com>
 <5635EF05.3030709@openmailbox.org>
 <CAGRDzQXHgNgQR358jHreMYj2tH_A2zX_fjQJF7NwVYReANTnGQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAOsGNSTmE6oz65VZHOwQgqjc=O4iW43x2SFp_03017MM-t1zdA@mail.gmail.com>

On 11/1/15, Cari Machet <carimachet at gmail.com> wrote:
..
> so fucking blackwater has been doing this shit for a while now ... gun for
> hire and what i am not reading here is any consciousness that the
> murder/war zone is a fucking hopped up place the people that perform these
> actions are getting off on
..
> the idea behind dropping the bombs on japan was like this deterrent or that
> is what generally american people think anyway ... the japanese would not
> give an unconditional surrender yet they had surrendered
>
> all these mass murder desires need to be shifted out as i think they are
> strong entities in and of themselves apart from money the psyche is
> straight up blood lust blood thirsty fucks ... why we have blood thirsty
> fucks everywhere ??? why do people get off on murder/war like it is a drug
> ? until these mindsets are twisted out of themselves and drained of energy
> clear theory of crowd sourced assassination for deterrent cannot fully
> work... if it was like one or two crazy fucks that desired combat and
> murder to get off then that would be one thing but this is like a lot of
> fucks and even the fucking american psyche associations enjoy hurting
> people
>
> there are many fronts to work on all at the same time to shift out of all
> of this

Thank you Cari! This is to me so important. You have put into words
something that was nagging in my mind on this topic.

This is a nice planet. don't want to lead to fucking it up for millenia.




From zen at freedbms.net  Mon Nov  2 05:03:33 2015
From: zen at freedbms.net (Zenaan Harkness)
Date: Mon, 2 Nov 2015 13:03:33 +0000
Subject: The BlackList
In-Reply-To: <CAGRDzQXUCjDObF3JYfPUn-h8ew0omebSWh5yzJqUYckLdD1Bag@mail.gmail.com>
References: <563552F7.7000103@openmailbox.org>
 <1618172215.394932.1446357637717.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com>
 <5635EF05.3030709@openmailbox.org>
 <CAGRDzQXHgNgQR358jHreMYj2tH_A2zX_fjQJF7NwVYReANTnGQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <56361345.4040905@openmailbox.org>
 <CAGRDzQXUCjDObF3JYfPUn-h8ew0omebSWh5yzJqUYckLdD1Bag@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAOsGNSTEXvT7+PyDh863sCw4i=OADuqb1JXbACNed-QDdy=k8w@mail.gmail.com>

On 11/1/15, Cari Machet <carimachet at gmail.com> wrote:
> state dont like check points by community ... UK use to do shootings at
> community checkpoints and pretend they were a protestant or vis versa a
> catholic just to fuck with the community security effect

Are you able to provide something more for the curious please?


> all of this points to why i think there needs to be many theories developed
> around solution in all sectors of society not just one base theory to solve
> one issue then we are all good and we live in nirvana.... work on
> everything you can all the time

I agree with this. We can hypothesize how 'natural monopolies/
utilities' would work - how do we manage a transition? And given that
most people in a "democracy" almost always acquiesce to an evil
dominating imposition by the state (eg parking fine), how could
political anarchy be better? Does power not tend to coalesce/
centralise? J Paul Getty - distribute the worlds wealth (he meant
money I think) equally to everyone, and in 90 days most of it will be
back where it was before you started the exercise (I'm paraphrasing of
course).


> work on mindset ... so restorative justice is like that it tears at the
> underlying mindset of getting off on murder and blood lust... mediation
> shit ...calling out people that take power instead of standing there mouth
> open drooling

It's the "mouth open drooling" part that I have always maintained is
our greatest problem, and why I believe that our education system has
been intentionally deteriorated to a schooling and baby sitting (baby
creating) system. Just another aspect that needs fixing/ redesigning/
reworking/ major change.


> this is being taught now in primary schools

huh?




From Rayzer at riseup.net  Mon Nov  2 13:05:44 2015
From: Rayzer at riseup.net (Razer)
Date: Mon, 2 Nov 2015 13:05:44 -0800
Subject: Shiny stuff and designer societies
In-Reply-To: <CAHWD2rLSbth8iSSf7zGyswb3n=d5v9u=hJ-Q-TWr7f2Q3mfDCQ@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAHWD2rJNTxt2+=0rPkkc+323pTn-njkvJVgUE624LShu2xg1Eg@mail.gmail.com>
 <150b0aeef50.276e.4d489027c0c4d0c1b1ca03a1f48f1ffb@misanthropia.org>
 <20151028231728.1A96CC00019@frontend1.nyi.internal>
 <CAOsGNSThwv=c9K4v4HkD27PD+wY9+XykyTNOWs=7FOwPpxctZw@mail.gmail.com>
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 <56327869.361f8c0a.efb1c.692d@mx.google.com>
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 <CAHWD2rLSbth8iSSf7zGyswb3n=d5v9u=hJ-Q-TWr7f2Q3mfDCQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <5637D028.1060901@riseup.net>



On 11/02/2015 12:35 PM, Lodewijk andré de la porte wrote:
> Sorry for letting that out, but compare the Wild West to the Roman
> Empire, compare African tribes to old Japan. Structured violence can
> decrease overall violence.


Glad you used the word "Can", as in not indicating that would ever
really happen. You've got to be nuts to believe this. The industrialized
world kills MILLIONS of innocent civilians every year in their wars
alone, no less the casualty count from falling into a vat of some 'food
product' at some centralized food factory somewhere and drowning in it.

It's unlikely that all the warriors Genghis Khan ever mustered had
collectively even eyeballed a million people in their lifetimes.

RR

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From zen at freedbms.net  Mon Nov  2 05:13:25 2015
From: zen at freedbms.net (Zenaan Harkness)
Date: Mon, 2 Nov 2015 13:13:25 +0000
Subject: The BlackList
In-Reply-To: <5636700f.471c8d0a.3cebe.fffff425@mx.google.com>
References: <5635b6e3.0e138c0a.148ca.ffffc02f@mx.google.com>
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Message-ID: <CAOsGNSSGY0XnrgO0V5PjxFZYfNgsXxLa3pZPw5NKujUnhF5y6g@mail.gmail.com>

On 11/1/15, Juan <juan.g71 at gmail.com> wrote:
> On Sun, 1 Nov 2015 08:12:00 +0000 (UTC)
> jim bell <jdb10987 at yahoo.com> wrote:
>> And their employees will have
>> access to them.
>
> 	And they would betray their bosses?

Burn a boss day hey? Matthew 18 suggests a protocol:
a) go (presumably, if safe) to the one who did wrong and ask him to fix it
b) if he ignores, go with one or two others to resolve
c) if he's really belligerent, go with 12 (as a jury or something, I'm
paraphrasing)

If we give up our preconditioning of modern demoncratic times, some
sort of conflict resolution process is needed, and on principle of
enlightened self interest, the first question is "what system would I
want for any accuser against me" - but the answer to that might depend
on if your conscience is functional and whether your inclination is to
good or to evil?




From goran at gothic.com.au  Sun Nov  1 19:12:45 2015
From: goran at gothic.com.au (goran at gothic.com.au)
Date: Mon, 2 Nov 2015 14:12:45 +1100
Subject: Value of Earth Human Life
In-Reply-To: <5636C99B.3060807@riseup.net>
References: <CAD2Ti2_BYEkPis9yGqhMUC-NNVAueAWCvm1v7awDTW8sLRv+ew@mail.gmail.com>
 <2016477829.396270.1446369912828.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com>
 <5636C99B.3060807@riseup.net>
Message-ID: <5636D4AD.1070707@gothic.com.au>

And you reckon that there'll be an island to retire to in such case?

Goran

On 02/11/2015 13:25, Mirimir wrote:
> On 11/01/2015 02:25 AM, jim bell wrote:
> 
> <SNIP>
> 
>> While the first few collected rewards would probably be in the tens
>> of thousands of dollars range, after a few hundred are collected I
>> think the price could easily drop to the low thousands.
> 
> Really? Let's say that there was a viable AP system. What would bids be
> like for top US officials? There are maybe a couple billion people who
> want them dead. Even at $1 each, that's a lot of money!
> 
> Also, consider the potential for collateral damage. Let's say that I'm
> the captain of a Russian nuclear sub. The aggregate value of the US
> Congress might hit $100 billion, no? So what might I do? First, kill my
> crew, after making suitable arrangements. Then nuke Washington, and
> collect my winnings. Maybe drop out for a few years in some deep part of
> the Pacific. Then buy an island, and retire.
> 
> <SNIP>
> 
> 




From mirimir at riseup.net  Mon Nov  2 14:04:46 2015
From: mirimir at riseup.net (Mirimir)
Date: Mon, 2 Nov 2015 15:04:46 -0700
Subject: The BlackList
In-Reply-To: <CAO7N=i2U-cFq0mzfFMTSCaKoKOcD15ETRgbJnF6KxzKPHJ=+3w@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAO7N=i2U-cFq0mzfFMTSCaKoKOcD15ETRgbJnF6KxzKPHJ=+3w@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <5637DDFE.1020307@riseup.net>

On 11/02/2015 02:22 AM, Ryan Carboni wrote:
[Mirimir wrote:]
>> On 11/01/2015 01:52 PM, Juan wrote:
>>> On Sun, 1 Nov 2015 01:16:15 -0700
>>> coderman <coderman at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>> On 11/1/15, Juan <juan.g71 at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>> ...
>>>>>     It seems (kinda obvious) to me that to get rid of 'high
>>>>>     ranking' targets you need a 'professional' service, agree?
>>>>
>>>> no, this is movie plot thinking.
>>>
>>>       Ha. That's a funny remark because I was just thinking that AP
>>>       does sound like literary fiction so far.
>>
>> Well, the idea has been kicked around for 20 years, and little has come
>> of it. Maybe that's because it's still unworkable. How are people going
>> to bid anonymously? Is Tor good enough for that? A viable AP market
>> would draw TLAs to Tor like dogs to shit. And they would cooperate.
>>
>> Also, how would bidders pay anonymously when targets were killed? There
>> is no inherently anonymous payment system that's widely available. Maybe
>> anonymized Bitcoin, after a few mixes through Tor, would make the nut.
>> Or maybe creative carding. Maybe y'all reading this could manage it. But
>> what about the clueless masses who might be motivated to bid?
>>
>> I don't know whether AP would take down governments. Hell, I'm not even
>> sure whether that would be prudent. But I am certain that many bidders
>> would go down, through cluelessness or system compromise.
> 
> The theory, I thought, was a simple prediction market. Based on
> actuarial statistics by Social Security, people usually have less than
> a 1% chance of dying per year (Fidel Castro seems to have a 0%
> chance), so guessing the right death year is pretty "lucky".
> 
> The person who guesses correctly would receive the pot of money.
> 
> The real problem is that the prediction market will be regulated out
> of existence. You have any idea how regulated the resale of life
> insurance contracts are?
> 
> That and, how do you trust the prediction market? It has to be a
> company with a mailing address, otherwise one could just run away with
> the money.
> 
> Personally, I believe a good prediction market would be one limited to
> predicting deaths and the overthrow of governments.
> 




From goran at gothic.com.au  Sun Nov  1 20:24:50 2015
From: goran at gothic.com.au (goran at gothic.com.au)
Date: Mon, 2 Nov 2015 15:24:50 +1100
Subject: Value of Earth Human Life
In-Reply-To: <5636DECA.6010709@riseup.net>
References: <CAD2Ti2_BYEkPis9yGqhMUC-NNVAueAWCvm1v7awDTW8sLRv+ew@mail.gmail.com>
 <2016477829.396270.1446369912828.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com>
 <5636C99B.3060807@riseup.net> <5636D4AD.1070707@gothic.com.au>
 <5636DECA.6010709@riseup.net>
Message-ID: <5636E592.8050506@gothic.com.au>

I would say no;
What's left of what we call civilisation would decay much faster then
the airborne stuff.

Goran

On 02/11/2015 14:55, Mirimir wrote:
> On 11/01/2015 08:12 PM, goran at gothic.com.au wrote:
>> And you reckon that there'll be an island to retire to in such case?
>>
>> Goran
> 
> Maybe so, maybe no. Maybe New Zealand? The southern hemisphere would
> probably escape the worst fallout, because inter-hemispheric mixing is
> relatively slow. Short-lived stuff would decay before it got there.
> 




From Rayzer at riseup.net  Mon Nov  2 15:39:13 2015
From: Rayzer at riseup.net (Razer)
Date: Mon, 2 Nov 2015 15:39:13 -0800
Subject: Shiny stuff and designer societies
In-Reply-To: <CAOsGNSQiJH9ueyrqAeuHwKGMKQF+vAw47q8QFkaR_0J=FYES7g@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAHWD2rJNTxt2+=0rPkkc+323pTn-njkvJVgUE624LShu2xg1Eg@mail.gmail.com>
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 <CAHWD2rLJ0RgxcGZi=mKD=OfYYtCy1j9sfbzDKOVZuuX5EPCnJg@mail.gmail.com>
 <56327869.361f8c0a.efb1c.692d@mx.google.com>
 <CAHWD2rLBHnMHYnLZfYWfvvY9vQnxxrTp5Pk88H5mFoXO6+KW7g@mail.gmail.com>
 <5633e047.b3588c0a.28e5f.1db7@mx.google.com>
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 <563691c8.d3828c0a.96ed7.044b@mx.google.com>
 <CAHWD2rLSbth8iSSf7zGyswb3n=d5v9u=hJ-Q-TWr7f2Q3mfDCQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <5637D028.1060901@riseup.net>
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Message-ID: <5637F421.60806@riseup.net>



On 11/02/2015 03:12 PM, Zenaan Harkness wrote:
> On 11/2/15, Lodewijk andré de la porte <l at odewijk.nl> wrote:
>> 2015-11-02 22:05 GMT+01:00 Razer <Rayzer at riseup.net>:
>>> It's unlikely that all the warriors Genghis Khan ever mustered had
>>> collectively even eyeballed a million people in their lifetimes.
>> What do you mean? Seriously! Millions of civilians a year? What???
>>
>> WW1 totalled       < 260k
>> WW2 totalled       < 55000k (including famine and disease related)
> Huh? Dunno where you figures are coming from. Let's pick the hardest
> hit country, for those who just maybe missed it, my current favourite
> country, Russia:
> "World War II casualties of the Soviet Union from all related causes
> were over 20,000,000, both civilians and military, although the
> statistics vary to a great extent largely because these figures are
> currently disputed."
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/World_War_II_casualties_of_the_Soviet_Union
>
> Certainly above 55k. Perhaps I missed what the numbers you posted are
> meant to mean. Apologies if that's the case.
>
>

If "55000k" means 55 thousand thousand it comes a little closer. A
single year's deaths in Afghanistan doesn't come close to a legitimate
response to my statement, and the Mongols/40M I'm not buying at all.

RR

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From carimachet at gmail.com  Mon Nov  2 09:26:45 2015
From: carimachet at gmail.com (Cari Machet)
Date: Mon, 2 Nov 2015 19:26:45 +0200
Subject: =?UTF-8?Q?Re=3A_Meet_the_U=2ES=2E_Defense_Firm_Supplying_Iran=E2=80=99s_In?=
 =?UTF-8?Q?ternet?=
In-Reply-To: <56378A73.6050308@riseup.net>
References: <56378A73.6050308@riseup.net>
Message-ID: <CAGRDzQXMM4w_JbhMC6ShD8w_kN2ppy8MKDK=Om1q4Xdb0RwAKQ@mail.gmail.com>

its not fucking 'unusual'

it is hilarious though - the depth of reporting #pathetic

On Mon, Nov 2, 2015 at 6:08 PM, Razer <Rayzer at riseup.net> wrote:

>
> http://www.thedailybeast.com/articles/2015/11/01/meet-the-u-s-defense-firm-supplying-iran-s-internet.html
>
>    -
>    <https://plus.google.com/share?url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.thedailybeast.com%2Farticles%2F2015%2F11%2F01%2Fmeet-the-u-s-defense-firm-supplying-iran-s-internet.html%3Fvia%3Ddesktop%26social%3Dgoogleplus>
>
> Disconnect
> 11.01.1512:01 AM ET
> Meet the U.S. Defense Firm Supplying Iran’s Internet
> A company that works for American spies and generals has quietly started
> providing Internet service to the Islamic Republic. What’s going on here?
>
> Nestled in a suburban Washington, D.C.
> <http://www.thedailybeast.com/articles/2015/08/01/what-jane-jacobs-got-wrong-about-cities.html>,
> office park, across the street from a shopping mall, a technology company
> that counts the U.S. Defense Department
> <http://www.thedailybeast.com/articles/2015/10/27/the-u-s-war-casualties-the-pentagon-doesn-t-want-you-to-see.html>
> as its biggest customer is charting out a new frontier: providing Internet
> service to Iran.
>
> But GTT Communications Inc.—headquartered in McLean, Virginia, just a
> 15-minute drive from the headquarters of the CIA and hired by various
> unnamed U.S. intelligence agencies and satellite operators—hasn’t exactly
> been touting its new venture.
>
> The company has issued no press release about its deal with an undersea
> cable network that sells Internet services to Iran and other Persian Gulf.
> (One of the cables comes ashore at the city of Bushehr, home to a nuclear
> plant that’s been the subject of intense debate about its role in Iran’s
> nuclear program.)
>
> Instead, the partnership was announced
> <http://twitter.com/GBI_Network/status/598225813419360256?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw>
> in a single tweet last May; both parties have been largely silent about the
> deal since then. When contacted by The Daily Beast for details about the
> deal with the Doha-based submarine cable operator, Gulf Bridge
> International, a GTT spokesperson said the agreement wouldn’t be finalized
> for a few more weeks.
>
> And yet technical data shows that GTT was providing Internet service to
> Iran for months.
>
> The Islamic Republic has been off limits to most U.S. companies for years.
> A complex sanctions
> <http://www.thedailybeast.com/articles/2015/07/14/nuke-deal-helps-qasem-soleimani-the-top-iranian-general-with-american-blood-on-his-hands.html>
> regime
> <http://www.thedailybeast.com/articles/2015/07/14/nuke-deal-helps-qasem-soleimani-the-top-iranian-general-with-american-blood-on-his-hands.html>,
> meant in part to isolate the regime in Tehran and obstruct its efforts to
> obtain a nuclear weapon, bars the sale of good and services by many
> American companies, including through intermediaries.
>
> But last year, the Treasury Department, which administers the sanctions
> program, issued new rules (PDF
> <http://www.treasury.gov/resource-center/sanctions/Programs/Documents/iran_gld1.pdf>)
> authorizing the sale of “consumer-grade Intemet connectivity services.”
> That created an opening for GTT, as well as any other American companies
> that want to cash in on the Iranian market for Internet service, which is
> booming thanks in large part to a surge of new mobile phone users in the
> country.
>
> The company began providing bandwidth to Iran’s state-owned telecom
> company, TIC, via one of Gulf Bridge’s submarines cables on June 10, Doug
> Madory, the director of analysis at Dyn, a research company that monitors
> Internet connectivity, told The Daily Beast. Notably, that was nearly a
> month before the U.S., Iran, and other world powers announced an agreement
> <http://www.thedailybeast.com/articles/2015/04/02/it-ll-be-a-miracle-if-this-iran-nuke-deal-really-gets-done.html>
> to curb Iran’s nuclear weapons program in exchange for lifting some
> sanctions.
>
> Only Iranian officials would know the exact percentage of Iran’s Internet
> traffic that was flowing to and from GTT, said Madory, who first noted
> <http://research.dyn.com/2015/09/iran-latest-nation-to-host-critical-global-internet-infrastruture/#%21prettyPhoto>
> the company’s presence in Iran last month. But, he said, the Iranian
> Internet is effectively composed of about 5,000 network routes, and at its
> peak in August, “GTT was handling anywhere from some to all of the
> international traffic” to more than 1,800 of those routes, or about 16.6
> percent of the total.
>
> So GTT was not some small-time provider.
>
> Asked for more details about its work in Iran, the GTT spokesperson, Ann
> Rote, said that she would be able to provide specifics after the
> partnership was finalized.
>
> But, Rote said, the company’s work violated no sanctions, and was in line
> with “U.S. policy to facilitate the flow of information to and from Iran.”
>
> When contacted by The Daily Beast for details about the Iran deal, a GTT
> spokesperson said the agreement wouldn’t be finalized for a few more weeks.
> And yet technical data shows that GTT was providing Internet service to
> Iran for months.
>
> “GTT does not conduct any business in Iran or with the Government of
> Iran,” Rote said. “Any Internet traffic coming from Iran and transiting
> GTT’s global IP [Internet protocol] network is coming indirectly from
> customers of wholesale or carrier partners in the Middle East region.”
>
> Technically, she’s right. GTT’s customer is Gulf Bridge International, the
> undersea cable provider. But the technical data strongly suggest that GTT
> knew—or should have known—that it was providing service to the state
> telecom of Iran. And that’s a crucial question, because while U.S.
> companies are allowed to sell Internet service to Iran, they may not do so
> if they have “knowledge or reason to know that such services … are intended
> for the Government of Iran,” according to Treasury Department rules.
> State-owned companies are also covered by that prohibition, two lawyers who
> are expert in the sanctions rules told The Daily Beast.
>
> In October, GTT was “transiting” 521 Iranian routes, Madory said, meaning
> that at some level GTT was responsible for “propagating these routes to the
> greater Internet.” Effectively, GTT was advertising that route for traffic
> destined to particular Internet addresses in Iran
>
> But on October 5, the service abruptly stopped, apparently after one of
> Gulf Bridge International’s cables was cut. The service has not been
> restored, Madory said. Up until that point, it had been going strong for
> nearly four months.
>
> GTT’s service to Iran raises questions about why an American Internet
> company with close ties to the U.S. government and intelligence community
> would be selling off bandwidth to a country that is still a major strategic
> adversary of the United States.
>
> Despite the nuclear deal, Iran is providing the bulk of ground forces to
> crush Syrian rebels opposed to Bashar al-Assad, and is part of an emerging
> power axis with Russia, which has launched
> <http://www.thedailybeast.com/articles/2015/09/29/u-s-to-putin-welcome-to-the-isis-quagmire.html>
> airstrikes to keep the Syrian dictator in power and to keep Moscow’s
> foothold in the Middle East.
>
> But Iran is expanding economically—and digitally—as well. And that
> presents an opportunity for American technology companies.
>
> Since August 2014, when the Iran’s national telecom regulator began
> awarding licenses for 3G and 4G mobile phone service, subscriptions have
> surged, to about 20.5 million people last month, Amy Cameron, a senior
> analyst with BMI Research, told The Daily Beast. That’s about 27 percent of
> the country’s population, the majority of which is under 30 and,
> presumably, eager to embrace new technologies and the access to information
> that comes with them.
>
> The surge in mobile phone service is a big business, and Iran needs more
> Internet addresses and access for all those new devices, Cameron said. In
> addition to acquiring new service routes—like the ones GTT provides—the
> government has also been buying up Internet addresses that use the
> so-called “version 4”
> <http://research.dyn.com/2015/04/ipv4-address-market-takes-off> protocol,
> a vital, and increasingly scarce, component of the world’s Internet
> infrastructure. And Iran plans to auction more wireless broadband spectrum,
> which should in turn attract more investment in mobile networks.
>
> “All of these developments point towards Iran making concerted efforts to
> open its Internet market,” Cameron said. Of course, there are limits to
> that openness: Iran’s primary telecom company is owned by the military, and
> the Tehran government monitors communications for prohibited content.
> All of which makes its affiliation with a telecom company in suburban
> Washington even more unusual.
>
> --30--
>



-- 
Cari Machet
NYC 646-436-7795
carimachet at gmail.com
AIM carismachet
Syria +963-099 277 3243
Amman +962 077 636 9407
Berlin +49 152 11779219
Reykjavik +354 894 8650
Twitter: @carimachet <https://twitter.com/carimachet>

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From carimachet at gmail.com  Mon Nov  2 09:29:04 2015
From: carimachet at gmail.com (Cari Machet)
Date: Mon, 2 Nov 2015 19:29:04 +0200
Subject: The BlackList
In-Reply-To: <5636CC5B.1020504@riseup.net>
References: <563552F7.7000103@openmailbox.org>
 <1618172215.394932.1446357637717.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com>
 <5635b6e3.0e138c0a.148ca.ffffc02f@mx.google.com>
 <CAJVRA1TaCAX_oYkHmFEDCj+Evj8C_-_vnOZaVq_f6DD7+J01iA@mail.gmail.com>
 <5635be08.53528c0a.6a953.ffffc32a@mx.google.com>
 <CAJVRA1Tj_0Q9jaLMKXzkgEe5TaQz_K1=X4e6MJkh36k1-06L8w@mail.gmail.com>
 <5635c7f4.c548370a.33e6a.10f6@mx.google.com>
 <CAJVRA1StNCiLmupBJ9FvB-j9Sybcv3rDEBLyrTrQzSou5=GfHw@mail.gmail.com>
 <563679ef.44e88c0a.4bc59.fffff577@mx.google.com> <5636CC5B.1020504@riseup.net>
Message-ID: <CAGRDzQXUq_sn1t+-kO3OXMuN-tPkVuN7i+ORWHd42Z7o=tnK7g@mail.gmail.com>

thats right Gladio

On Mon, Nov 2, 2015 at 4:37 AM, Razer <Rayzer at riseup.net> wrote:

>
>
> On 11/01/2015 12:52 PM, coderman wrote:
> > rather different thing is the assumption that you can turn
> >       members of the official mafia into 'traitors' by offering them
> >       enough money.
>
> I dunno. The Italian mob worked with the OSS/CIA to set up an intel
> network in Italy and Europe during WWII in exchange for Lucky Luciano's
> release and exile. Pretty sure the Maf was also involved in Operation
> Gladio, a NATO 'stay-behind' anti-communist army tasked with
> destabilizing Italian (Belgian, other...) civil societies with various
> kinds of acts including terrorism, designed to convince people in those
> countries they'd be safer hanging with Western Industrial Capitalism
> than moving towards socialism.
>
> That's traitorous
>
> RR
>
>


-- 
Cari Machet
NYC 646-436-7795
carimachet at gmail.com
AIM carismachet
Syria +963-099 277 3243
Amman +962 077 636 9407
Berlin +49 152 11779219
Reykjavik +354 894 8650
Twitter: @carimachet <https://twitter.com/carimachet>

7035 690E 5E47 41D4 B0E5 B3D1 AF90 49D6 BE09 2187

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addressee(s) and may contain confidential information. If you are not the
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From guninski at guninski.com  Mon Nov  2 09:31:34 2015
From: guninski at guninski.com (Georgi Guninski)
Date: Mon, 2 Nov 2015 19:31:34 +0200
Subject: Meet the U.S. Defense Firm =?utf-8?Q?S?=
 =?utf-8?Q?upplying_Iran=E2=80=99s?= Internet
In-Reply-To: <56378A73.6050308@riseup.net>
References: <56378A73.6050308@riseup.net>
Message-ID: <20151102173134.GC2762@sivokote.iziade.m$>

On Mon, Nov 02, 2015 at 08:08:19AM -0800, Razer wrote:
> <html>
>   <head>
> 
>     <meta http-equiv="content-type" content="text/html; charset=utf-8">
>   </head>
>   <body bgcolor="#FFFFFF" text="#000000">
>     <section class="body grid-18 row clearfix">

Add 1000 troll points for html only.




From carimachet at gmail.com  Mon Nov  2 09:36:25 2015
From: carimachet at gmail.com (Cari Machet)
Date: Mon, 2 Nov 2015 19:36:25 +0200
Subject: The BlackList
In-Reply-To: <CAOsGNSTmE6oz65VZHOwQgqjc=O4iW43x2SFp_03017MM-t1zdA@mail.gmail.com>
References: <563552F7.7000103@openmailbox.org>
 <1618172215.394932.1446357637717.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com>
 <5635EF05.3030709@openmailbox.org>
 <CAGRDzQXHgNgQR358jHreMYj2tH_A2zX_fjQJF7NwVYReANTnGQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAOsGNSTmE6oz65VZHOwQgqjc=O4iW43x2SFp_03017MM-t1zdA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAGRDzQXM2B9bbjB=mCMvSA5TwuJbdkgAD+T54fF4YS9H1AtAVQ@mail.gmail.com>

zenaan it is a beyond beautiful planet... life is exquisite

art is life

it is my pleasure beyond my pleasure really to have words flow thru me ...
ideas are just in the air i just catch them for a moment and put the words
on the computer

i need to work on how to shift out of the blood lust though ... need to
figure out daily functionality to do that as it is too pervasive cant sit
one day without doing something against it ... all ideas for that are
welcomed -  you are all so smart ya know ....even the ones i argue with are
smart

On Mon, Nov 2, 2015 at 2:56 PM, Zenaan Harkness <zen at freedbms.net> wrote:

> On 11/1/15, Cari Machet <carimachet at gmail.com> wrote:
> ..
> > so fucking blackwater has been doing this shit for a while now ... gun
> for
> > hire and what i am not reading here is any consciousness that the
> > murder/war zone is a fucking hopped up place the people that perform
> these
> > actions are getting off on
> ..
> > the idea behind dropping the bombs on japan was like this deterrent or
> that
> > is what generally american people think anyway ... the japanese would not
> > give an unconditional surrender yet they had surrendered
> >
> > all these mass murder desires need to be shifted out as i think they are
> > strong entities in and of themselves apart from money the psyche is
> > straight up blood lust blood thirsty fucks ... why we have blood thirsty
> > fucks everywhere ??? why do people get off on murder/war like it is a
> drug
> > ? until these mindsets are twisted out of themselves and drained of
> energy
> > clear theory of crowd sourced assassination for deterrent cannot fully
> > work... if it was like one or two crazy fucks that desired combat and
> > murder to get off then that would be one thing but this is like a lot of
> > fucks and even the fucking american psyche associations enjoy hurting
> > people
> >
> > there are many fronts to work on all at the same time to shift out of all
> > of this
>
> Thank you Cari! This is to me so important. You have put into words
> something that was nagging in my mind on this topic.
>
> This is a nice planet. don't want to lead to fucking it up for millenia.
>



-- 
Cari Machet
NYC 646-436-7795
carimachet at gmail.com
AIM carismachet
Syria +963-099 277 3243
Amman +962 077 636 9407
Berlin +49 152 11779219
Reykjavik +354 894 8650
Twitter: @carimachet <https://twitter.com/carimachet>

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From carimachet at gmail.com  Mon Nov  2 10:07:33 2015
From: carimachet at gmail.com (Cari Machet)
Date: Mon, 2 Nov 2015 20:07:33 +0200
Subject: The BlackList
In-Reply-To: <CAOsGNSTEXvT7+PyDh863sCw4i=OADuqb1JXbACNed-QDdy=k8w@mail.gmail.com>
References: <563552F7.7000103@openmailbox.org>
 <1618172215.394932.1446357637717.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com>
 <5635EF05.3030709@openmailbox.org>
 <CAGRDzQXHgNgQR358jHreMYj2tH_A2zX_fjQJF7NwVYReANTnGQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <56361345.4040905@openmailbox.org>
 <CAGRDzQXUCjDObF3JYfPUn-h8ew0omebSWh5yzJqUYckLdD1Bag@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAOsGNSTEXvT7+PyDh863sCw4i=OADuqb1JXbACNed-QDdy=k8w@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAGRDzQUoLicz39BShb5T9zFOPhvszRCD_-692pwAU25okjq=DQ@mail.gmail.com>

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i9Z7ybqCPbI

this panarama show is very good actually in general sometimes the bbc does
work

this is all about the british death squads in northern ireland

+++++++++++

this is stuff about the mediation being taught in schools now

http://umaine.edu/peace/files/2011/01/PEER_MEDIATION_FINAL_11.pdf

http://www.ascd.org/publications/educational-leadership/sept92/vol50/num01/Teaching-Students-to-Be-Peer-Mediators.aspx

from fucking 1994

http://www.ericdigests.org/1995-2/mediation.htm

masters degree in mediation in germany

http://www.peacemediation.de/training_and_teaching/masters_program_in_mediation.shtml

german primary edu

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Education_in_Germany

Some schools also have special mediators who are student volunteers trained
to resolve conflicts between their classmates or younger students.

i just know about it cause i know students there and they think adults are
crazy with all their conflicts all the time ... as there are easy solutions
they know

On Mon, Nov 2, 2015 at 3:03 PM, Zenaan Harkness <zen at freedbms.net> wrote:

> On 11/1/15, Cari Machet <carimachet at gmail.com> wrote:
> > state dont like check points by community ... UK use to do shootings at
> > community checkpoints and pretend they were a protestant or vis versa a
> > catholic just to fuck with the community security effect
>
> Are you able to provide something more for the curious please?
>
>
> > all of this points to why i think there needs to be many theories
> developed
> > around solution in all sectors of society not just one base theory to
> solve
> > one issue then we are all good and we live in nirvana.... work on
> > everything you can all the time
>
> I agree with this. We can hypothesize how 'natural monopolies/
> utilities' would work - how do we manage a transition? And given that
> most people in a "democracy" almost always acquiesce to an evil
> dominating imposition by the state (eg parking fine), how could
> political anarchy be better? Does power not tend to coalesce/
> centralise? J Paul Getty - distribute the worlds wealth (he meant
> money I think) equally to everyone, and in 90 days most of it will be
> back where it was before you started the exercise (I'm paraphrasing of
> course).
>
>
> > work on mindset ... so restorative justice is like that it tears at the
> > underlying mindset of getting off on murder and blood lust... mediation
> > shit ...calling out people that take power instead of standing there
> mouth
> > open drooling
>
> It's the "mouth open drooling" part that I have always maintained is
> our greatest problem, and why I believe that our education system has
> been intentionally deteriorated to a schooling and baby sitting (baby
> creating) system. Just another aspect that needs fixing/ redesigning/
> reworking/ major change.
>
>
> > this is being taught now in primary schools
>
> huh?
>



-- 
Cari Machet
NYC 646-436-7795
carimachet at gmail.com
AIM carismachet
Syria +963-099 277 3243
Amman +962 077 636 9407
Berlin +49 152 11779219
Reykjavik +354 894 8650
Twitter: @carimachet <https://twitter.com/carimachet>

7035 690E 5E47 41D4 B0E5 B3D1 AF90 49D6 BE09 2187

Ruh-roh, this is now necessary: This email is intended only for the
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From juan.g71 at gmail.com  Mon Nov  2 15:11:59 2015
From: juan.g71 at gmail.com (Juan)
Date: Mon, 2 Nov 2015 20:11:59 -0300
Subject: Shiny stuff and designer societies
In-Reply-To: <CAHWD2rJTpXeC6Q582hZ4QZqA2nvZYxa95mUo_4grhV3D-B9bpg@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAHWD2rJNTxt2+=0rPkkc+323pTn-njkvJVgUE624LShu2xg1Eg@mail.gmail.com>
 <150b0aeef50.276e.4d489027c0c4d0c1b1ca03a1f48f1ffb@misanthropia.org>
 <20151028231728.1A96CC00019@frontend1.nyi.internal>
 <CAOsGNSThwv=c9K4v4HkD27PD+wY9+XykyTNOWs=7FOwPpxctZw@mail.gmail.com>
 <150b1290920.276e.4d489027c0c4d0c1b1ca03a1f48f1ffb@misanthropia.org>
 <20151029013945.C7D9FC00012@frontend1.nyi.internal>
 <CAHWD2rLJ0RgxcGZi=mKD=OfYYtCy1j9sfbzDKOVZuuX5EPCnJg@mail.gmail.com>
 <56327869.361f8c0a.efb1c.692d@mx.google.com>
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 <5633e047.b3588c0a.28e5f.1db7@mx.google.com>
 <CAHWD2r+h3OsK0eAhU50PnRVBv-tULNWqQbYFbkOyqMyeAdOSDQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <563691c8.d3828c0a.96ed7.044b@mx.google.com>
 <CAHWD2rLSbth8iSSf7zGyswb3n=d5v9u=hJ-Q-TWr7f2Q3mfDCQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <5637D028.1060901@riseup.net>
 <CAHWD2rJTpXeC6Q582hZ4QZqA2nvZYxa95mUo_4grhV3D-B9bpg@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <5637ec31.83218c0a.8eccb.ffff8498@mx.google.com>

On Mon, 2 Nov 2015 23:35:03 +0100
Lodewijk andré de la porte <l at odewijk.nl> wrote:

> 
> WW1 totalled       < 260k
> WW2 totalled       < 55000k (including famine and disease related)


	I wonder if lodewijk's padded cell is comfortably enough? 





From juan.g71 at gmail.com  Mon Nov  2 15:13:30 2015
From: juan.g71 at gmail.com (Juan)
Date: Mon, 2 Nov 2015 20:13:30 -0300
Subject: Shiny stuff and designer societies
In-Reply-To: <CAHWD2rJTpXeC6Q582hZ4QZqA2nvZYxa95mUo_4grhV3D-B9bpg@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAHWD2rJNTxt2+=0rPkkc+323pTn-njkvJVgUE624LShu2xg1Eg@mail.gmail.com>
 <150b0aeef50.276e.4d489027c0c4d0c1b1ca03a1f48f1ffb@misanthropia.org>
 <20151028231728.1A96CC00019@frontend1.nyi.internal>
 <CAOsGNSThwv=c9K4v4HkD27PD+wY9+XykyTNOWs=7FOwPpxctZw@mail.gmail.com>
 <150b1290920.276e.4d489027c0c4d0c1b1ca03a1f48f1ffb@misanthropia.org>
 <20151029013945.C7D9FC00012@frontend1.nyi.internal>
 <CAHWD2rLJ0RgxcGZi=mKD=OfYYtCy1j9sfbzDKOVZuuX5EPCnJg@mail.gmail.com>
 <56327869.361f8c0a.efb1c.692d@mx.google.com>
 <CAHWD2rLBHnMHYnLZfYWfvvY9vQnxxrTp5Pk88H5mFoXO6+KW7g@mail.gmail.com>
 <5633e047.b3588c0a.28e5f.1db7@mx.google.com>
 <CAHWD2r+h3OsK0eAhU50PnRVBv-tULNWqQbYFbkOyqMyeAdOSDQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <563691c8.d3828c0a.96ed7.044b@mx.google.com>
 <CAHWD2rLSbth8iSSf7zGyswb3n=d5v9u=hJ-Q-TWr7f2Q3mfDCQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <5637D028.1060901@riseup.net>
 <CAHWD2rJTpXeC6Q582hZ4QZqA2nvZYxa95mUo_4grhV3D-B9bpg@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <5637ec8c.2218370a.75505.ffff8837@mx.google.com>

On Mon, 2 Nov 2015 23:35:03 +0100
Lodewijk andré de la porte <l at odewijk.nl> wrote:


> 
> I might write to /dev/null instead 


	yes, please, do. That's where your mental garbage belongs.







From juan.g71 at gmail.com  Mon Nov  2 15:53:27 2015
From: juan.g71 at gmail.com (Juan)
Date: Mon, 2 Nov 2015 20:53:27 -0300
Subject: Anarchist roads and free travel
In-Reply-To: <5637F3E3.7030109@openmailbox.org>
References: <CAOsGNSTCMr0p0Bko64boUy8A07kAgHjbO9FR5-3Ao7Kiyo49NA@mail.gmail.com>
 <5637F3E3.7030109@openmailbox.org>
Message-ID: <5637f5ef.cbc28c0a.b5555.ffff87c2@mx.google.com>

On Mon, 2 Nov 2015 23:38:11 +0000
intelemetry <intelemetry at openmailbox.org> wrote:


> An anarchocapitalist would
> disagree that travel should necessarily be free. 

	'anarcho' capitalists are actually monarchist nutcases






From juan.g71 at gmail.com  Mon Nov  2 15:57:26 2015
From: juan.g71 at gmail.com (Juan)
Date: Mon, 2 Nov 2015 20:57:26 -0300
Subject: Shiny stuff and designer societies
In-Reply-To: <5637F421.60806@riseup.net>
References: <CAHWD2rJNTxt2+=0rPkkc+323pTn-njkvJVgUE624LShu2xg1Eg@mail.gmail.com>
 <20151028231728.1A96CC00019@frontend1.nyi.internal>
 <CAOsGNSThwv=c9K4v4HkD27PD+wY9+XykyTNOWs=7FOwPpxctZw@mail.gmail.com>
 <150b1290920.276e.4d489027c0c4d0c1b1ca03a1f48f1ffb@misanthropia.org>
 <20151029013945.C7D9FC00012@frontend1.nyi.internal>
 <CAHWD2rLJ0RgxcGZi=mKD=OfYYtCy1j9sfbzDKOVZuuX5EPCnJg@mail.gmail.com>
 <56327869.361f8c0a.efb1c.692d@mx.google.com>
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 <CAHWD2rLSbth8iSSf7zGyswb3n=d5v9u=hJ-Q-TWr7f2Q3mfDCQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <5637D028.1060901@riseup.net>
 <CAHWD2rJTpXeC6Q582hZ4QZqA2nvZYxa95mUo_4grhV3D-B9bpg@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAOsGNSQiJH9ueyrqAeuHwKGMKQF+vAw47q8QFkaR_0J=FYES7g@mail.gmail.com>
 <5637F421.60806@riseup.net>
Message-ID: <5637f6d8.765c8c0a.3fe2d.ffff8f9f@mx.google.com>

On Mon, 2 Nov 2015 15:39:13 -0800
Razer <Rayzer at riseup.net> wrote:


> Mongols/40M I'm not buying at all.

	yeah, sounds like western propaganda, but even if true, it
	would be just another example of atate-organized violence. 

	Or are we supposed to believe that mongol armies were an
	example of natural rights anarchy at work. 


	






From l at odewijk.nl  Mon Nov  2 12:35:17 2015
From: l at odewijk.nl (=?UTF-8?Q?Lodewijk_andr=C3=A9_de_la_porte?=)
Date: Mon, 2 Nov 2015 21:35:17 +0100
Subject: Shiny stuff and designer societies
In-Reply-To: <563691c8.d3828c0a.96ed7.044b@mx.google.com>
References: <CAHWD2rJNTxt2+=0rPkkc+323pTn-njkvJVgUE624LShu2xg1Eg@mail.gmail.com>
 <150b0aeef50.276e.4d489027c0c4d0c1b1ca03a1f48f1ffb@misanthropia.org>
 <20151028231728.1A96CC00019@frontend1.nyi.internal>
 <CAOsGNSThwv=c9K4v4HkD27PD+wY9+XykyTNOWs=7FOwPpxctZw@mail.gmail.com>
 <150b1290920.276e.4d489027c0c4d0c1b1ca03a1f48f1ffb@misanthropia.org>
 <20151029013945.C7D9FC00012@frontend1.nyi.internal>
 <CAHWD2rLJ0RgxcGZi=mKD=OfYYtCy1j9sfbzDKOVZuuX5EPCnJg@mail.gmail.com>
 <56327869.361f8c0a.efb1c.692d@mx.google.com>
 <CAHWD2rLBHnMHYnLZfYWfvvY9vQnxxrTp5Pk88H5mFoXO6+KW7g@mail.gmail.com>
 <5633e047.b3588c0a.28e5f.1db7@mx.google.com>
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Message-ID: <CAHWD2rLSbth8iSSf7zGyswb3n=d5v9u=hJ-Q-TWr7f2Q3mfDCQ@mail.gmail.com>

2015-11-01 23:34 GMT+01:00 Juan <juan.g71 at gmail.com>:

> > Consistently applied and effective justice
>         The state doesn't provide justice.
>

Hence I am upset with it.


> > I think it's important to create law that's conservative and very
> > morally and ethically neutral.
>         OK. At this point you are pretty much some kind of bot.

> I think justice should not depend upon ethics very much at all.
>         You don't know what justice is.
>

What, because law is made by criminals, for criminals? idk why you don't
like law. I guess you'd rather grab a horse, a sack, and a rope, and call
that justice.

Ethical considerations like animal rights should not encode into strict
law. Same goes for drugs, sexuality, etc. Because these things are
difficult and I am not going to hurt people (punish them) for something
that might be fine, depending on how you look at it.

> >         Abstaining from violence? States are the most violent
> > >         organizations on the planet.
> >
> >
> > It's a fucking for virginity kind of thing.
>
>         Yes, that's your position. A clear contradiction in terms. An
>         absurdity. Nonsense.
>
>         You are supposed to present some kind of rational argument
>         here. Crass contradictions are just the opposite of rational
>         argument.
>
>         The game is totally and completely over and you lost big time.


You know, when I answer with a joke it's probably because I couldn't bother
to bridge to your level of stupidity. Sorry for letting that out, but
compare the Wild West to the Roman Empire, compare African tribes to old
Japan. Structured violence can decrease overall violence.

If that's beyond you, well, I guess that's why 100% consent is not an
option.

 > > As to the complex arrangements

> >         that can exist in a society, you don't need the state to
> > >         have them.
> > >
> >
> > True, but we have made it far easier by ways of state.
>
>
>         False.
>

I explained in detail why this is. If you didn't get the "costs of
enforcement" argument you're allowed to admit it. Hell, you might try
providing any argument yourself instead of responding to mine.

(to recap: if it costs 100 bucks to enforce a contract, the contract will
not at all protect any damage below 100 bucks. Without governance the cost
of strict enforcement is huge. You may also be in no position at all to
enforce a contract, like when your adversary is more powerful than you)

> >         It's also debatable why huge organizations are 'valuable'.
> > Economies of scale is one reason. The other is singular ginormous
> > efforts. The pyramids are an example, but also the space race, this
> > boat
>         What are you talking about. Who gives a fuck about the pyramids
>         or the space race?
>
>         Oh you think people should be sacrificed for your retarded
>         collective pet projects?
> > Not just commerce; CERN is awesome!
>
>         cern is a useless piece of shit - it's welfare for scammers who
>         pretend to be 'scientists'.
>

You're like a redneck piece of shit or something. To call CERN scammers ...
you must be seriously troubled.

And, actually, yeah, I think humanity is pretty much nothing but little pet
projects. I think bigger and cooler pet projects are practically all we can
hope for.


> > > > We can produce incentive schemes, to encourage the correct
> > > > behavior.
> > >
> > >         What is the 'correct' behaviour?
> > >
> >
> > For the system's actors to behave as they should, as determined by the
> > system.
>
>
>         Do you have anything else apart from blatant contradictions and
>         cicular 'logic'?
>

I know it's hard to reason with undefined variables, but the system was
instantiated as "some organization that can generate 'appropriate'
political decisions", where I marked "appropriate" such that you might
understand it is an undefined variable, that I cannot fill in just like
that.

It's not the first time you've failed to grasp my meaning, and responded
unkindly to the shadows you drew instead.

        "Freedom is not very strongly defined anyway"
>
>         More meaningless rambling. Are you high or something?
>

Nah, I'm fundamental. If you think the word freedom has a good exact
meaning, well, fuck you for keeping it to yourself.


> > Mathematically it makes sense to have competition and free markets.
>
>         LMAO. Mathematics is for counting stuff.
>

Continuing in the same vein as the CERN comment. Sad.


> > There you go using criminal as if it means something :)
>
>
>         It means nothing to amoralist nutcases.
>

Well, at least I don't think I'm the source and means of justice.


> > Uhm, the ideal criminal monopoly, to me, would be criminal enough to
> > ensure it's own existence, and do things I like as well. Like
> > advancing humanity.
>
>         lol...
>
>         Shouldn't you learn the ABC and master BASIC LOGICAL THINKING
>         before trying to 'advance humanity'?
>
>         Are you fucking crazy? You can't grasp BASIC LOGIC and yet you
>         want to 'advance humanity'??
>

Like, I dunno Juan, I'm really trying here. I thought you were about to
start explaining what you think, but here you are, spewing meaningless
offense again.

I mean, I learned some formal logic, you'd say that's a superset of basic
logic. UKGOV (through cie <http://cie.org.uk/>) even certified me for
critical thinking which, I think, involved some logic. I mean I got a
pretty bad grade, but I think it is because I merely skimmed the book the
day before the exam and dedicated my essay to shitting on the BBC and how
they're pressured for time in a world with bad journalism and lack specific
expertise to discuss complex topics, but whatever.

> Rights are defined by government,
>         Are you completely retarded or what.
>

Doctors say no, Juan says yes, the mystery continues...

Did you ever go for a mental checkup? Or did you prefer the criminals keep
their scary tentacles away from you?


> >
> >         You are misunderstanding what natural rights are. Natural
> > >         rights are a more legalistic description of common sense
> > >         morality.
> > >
> > >         You can probably kill a few random people right now if you
> > >         want. Say, use a car to run people over. But the fact that
> > > you *can* kill people means killing people is morally right?
> > >
> > >         Same thing with natural rights. The fact that natural rights
> > >         can be violated doesn't mean they don't exist.
> > >
> >
> > Natural rights are entirely different from rights. It is as you say,
> > a plea for encoding some specific morality into law. Claiming
> > something is a natural right seems to imply that it's been a right
> > since before the politics determined what is and isn't a right. I
> > think it's pretty meaningless,
>
>
>         Because you are some kind of psycho.
>

Poor alternative to admitting natural rights are just propagandaspeak for a
proposed core/basic/minimal morality, and adjusting how you think about
them.


> > > > Ask the mountains thought to have
> > > > spirits.
> > >
> > >         That's a poetic license.
> >
> > Can't ignore a mountain's natural rights, man.
>
>         Fuck you.
>

I feel your pain, but please direct your frustration towards the mountain.
It knows how to help you.
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From dan at geer.org  Mon Nov  2 19:31:54 2015
From: dan at geer.org (dan at geer.org)
Date: Mon, 02 Nov 2015 22:31:54 -0500
Subject: Shiny stuff and designer societies
In-Reply-To: Your message of "Fri, 30 Oct 2015 12:30:46 -0000."
 <CAOsGNST3TU-vBw+bT1uh-_t6RfT+_ifdQ0v6_hTf-9Vsd18cng@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <20151103033154.B3E23A06D87@palinka.tinho.net>

 | The road to hell IS paved with good intentions. The ends DO NOT
 | justify the means. Leave others, that is, everyone but yourself, leave
 | us the fuck alone!


look up "algorithmic regulation" ... soon enough there will be no
one to argue with in the sense of no person who made the decision
with which you find yourself disagreeing.

--dan




From zen at freedbms.net  Mon Nov  2 15:05:14 2015
From: zen at freedbms.net (Zenaan Harkness)
Date: Mon, 2 Nov 2015 23:05:14 +0000
Subject: How a group of neighbors created their own Internet service
Message-ID: <CAOsGNSRb3kAYUxXQbAMDa5bKb7id7BRa6g5RHLv3opSfpc5Gzg@mail.gmail.com>

A recent example. Such projects are evidently affordable with
volunteer(s) doing the work. Same goes for any off-grid network.
Perhaps this story will inspire someone to kick off their own little
corner of the locally-controlled internet.
Zenaan


http://mobile.slashdot.org/story/15/11/01/2241241/how-a-group-of-rural-washington-neighbors-created-their-own-internet-service
"
> [rich people blah blah] In any case, this isn't a poor farming
> community - they can afford this sort of large expenditure.

Honestly it doesn't seem the expenses were that great, it seems the
primary investment is one man who did a whole lot of legwork to rent a
microwave link, find relay points, install equipment, do network
supervision and maintenance and so on for free. The numbers are pretty
much all there, initial investment was $25k that they need to pay back
in 36 months. Break-even was 25 users, subtract 25 @ $150 = $3750 in
sign-up fee = $21250 / 36 = ~$600 month in down payment. Running
income = 25 @ $75/mo = $1875 - $900 in microwave rental - $600 in down
payments = $375/mo for running the wireless grid and misc. other
expenses = ~$0 in wages. And now they're paying it down faster so they
can lower prices, with 50 users / $900/mo + a slightly bigger grid it
might drop to $40/mo after the investment cost is paid off in less
than two years. That's not expensive, it's super cheap for rural
broadband.

For comparison, we're paying ~$500 extra per household on top of of
the ordinary ~$300 sign-up fee and ~$100 monthly fee for the privilege
of getting a fiber rollout with Internet/TV at our cabin here in
Norway. On the bright side, after the first twelve months we don't
have to use it more than 4 months a year, but it's still ~$2000 for
year one and ~$400/year just for the summer. And they're not planning
to lower prices, they're planning to recoup the rest of the roll-out
costs, pay wages and turn a nice profit over the next 20-30 years. But
it's not like in the city where you can connect 100 people in an
apartment building at the time, distances are huge and customers few
so cost per subscriber will be far, far more expensive so I doubt that
we're a cash cow. Anyway to get back on topic, what this community has
that others lack is one very skilled volunteer working for free, on a
commercial basis it would be way different.
"


Original:
http://arstechnica.com/information-technology/2015/11/how-a-group-of-neighbors-created-their-own-internet-service/




From zen at freedbms.net  Mon Nov  2 15:12:47 2015
From: zen at freedbms.net (Zenaan Harkness)
Date: Mon, 2 Nov 2015 23:12:47 +0000
Subject: Shiny stuff and designer societies
In-Reply-To: <CAHWD2rJTpXeC6Q582hZ4QZqA2nvZYxa95mUo_4grhV3D-B9bpg@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAHWD2rJNTxt2+=0rPkkc+323pTn-njkvJVgUE624LShu2xg1Eg@mail.gmail.com>
 <150b0aeef50.276e.4d489027c0c4d0c1b1ca03a1f48f1ffb@misanthropia.org>
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 <CAHWD2rLJ0RgxcGZi=mKD=OfYYtCy1j9sfbzDKOVZuuX5EPCnJg@mail.gmail.com>
 <56327869.361f8c0a.efb1c.692d@mx.google.com>
 <CAHWD2rLBHnMHYnLZfYWfvvY9vQnxxrTp5Pk88H5mFoXO6+KW7g@mail.gmail.com>
 <5633e047.b3588c0a.28e5f.1db7@mx.google.com>
 <CAHWD2r+h3OsK0eAhU50PnRVBv-tULNWqQbYFbkOyqMyeAdOSDQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <563691c8.d3828c0a.96ed7.044b@mx.google.com>
 <CAHWD2rLSbth8iSSf7zGyswb3n=d5v9u=hJ-Q-TWr7f2Q3mfDCQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <5637D028.1060901@riseup.net>
 <CAHWD2rJTpXeC6Q582hZ4QZqA2nvZYxa95mUo_4grhV3D-B9bpg@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAOsGNSQiJH9ueyrqAeuHwKGMKQF+vAw47q8QFkaR_0J=FYES7g@mail.gmail.com>

On 11/2/15, Lodewijk andré de la porte <l at odewijk.nl> wrote:
> 2015-11-02 22:05 GMT+01:00 Razer <Rayzer at riseup.net>:
>> It's unlikely that all the warriors Genghis Khan ever mustered had
>> collectively even eyeballed a million people in their lifetimes.
>
> What do you mean? Seriously! Millions of civilians a year? What???
>
> WW1 totalled       < 260k
> WW2 totalled       < 55000k (including famine and disease related)

Huh? Dunno where you figures are coming from. Let's pick the hardest
hit country, for those who just maybe missed it, my current favourite
country, Russia:
"World War II casualties of the Soviet Union from all related causes
were over 20,000,000, both civilians and military, although the
statistics vary to a great extent largely because these figures are
currently disputed."
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/World_War_II_casualties_of_the_Soviet_Union

Certainly above 55k. Perhaps I missed what the numbers you posted are
meant to mean. Apologies if that's the case.




From l at odewijk.nl  Mon Nov  2 14:35:03 2015
From: l at odewijk.nl (=?UTF-8?Q?Lodewijk_andr=C3=A9_de_la_porte?=)
Date: Mon, 2 Nov 2015 23:35:03 +0100
Subject: Shiny stuff and designer societies
In-Reply-To: <5637D028.1060901@riseup.net>
References: <CAHWD2rJNTxt2+=0rPkkc+323pTn-njkvJVgUE624LShu2xg1Eg@mail.gmail.com>
 <150b0aeef50.276e.4d489027c0c4d0c1b1ca03a1f48f1ffb@misanthropia.org>
 <20151028231728.1A96CC00019@frontend1.nyi.internal>
 <CAOsGNSThwv=c9K4v4HkD27PD+wY9+XykyTNOWs=7FOwPpxctZw@mail.gmail.com>
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 <56327869.361f8c0a.efb1c.692d@mx.google.com>
 <CAHWD2rLBHnMHYnLZfYWfvvY9vQnxxrTp5Pk88H5mFoXO6+KW7g@mail.gmail.com>
 <5633e047.b3588c0a.28e5f.1db7@mx.google.com>
 <CAHWD2r+h3OsK0eAhU50PnRVBv-tULNWqQbYFbkOyqMyeAdOSDQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <563691c8.d3828c0a.96ed7.044b@mx.google.com>
 <CAHWD2rLSbth8iSSf7zGyswb3n=d5v9u=hJ-Q-TWr7f2Q3mfDCQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <5637D028.1060901@riseup.net>
Message-ID: <CAHWD2rJTpXeC6Q582hZ4QZqA2nvZYxa95mUo_4grhV3D-B9bpg@mail.gmail.com>

2015-11-02 22:05 GMT+01:00 Razer <Rayzer at riseup.net>:

> On 11/02/2015 12:35 PM, Lodewijk andré de la porte wrote:
> > Sorry for letting that out, but compare the Wild West to the Roman
> > Empire, compare African tribes to old Japan. Structured violence can
> > decrease overall violence.
>
> Glad you used the word "Can", as in not indicating that would ever
> really happen. You've got to be nuts to believe this. The industrialized
> world kills MILLIONS of innocent civilians every year in their wars
> alone, no less the casualty count from falling into a vat of some 'food
> product' at some centralized food factory somewhere and drowning in it.
>
> It's unlikely that all the warriors Genghis Khan ever mustered had
> collectively even eyeballed a million people in their lifetimes.
>

What do you mean? Seriously! Millions of civilians a year? What???

WW1 totalled       < 260k
WW2 totalled       < 55000k (including famine and disease related)
Afghan war totals < 3k (including anti-US casualties)

Or, more completely,
"In 2013 war resulted in 31,000 deaths down from 72,000 deaths in 1990."
from wikipedia, after
http://www.thelancet.com/pdfs/journals/lancet/PIIS0140-6736(14)61682-2.pdf
(thanks Bill)

Industrial casualties are (usually..) actively minimized, and are doubtless
lower per product produced than they were in whatever method came before.
In the US in 2014 there were 4679 workers killed in total (according to OSHA
<https://www.osha.gov/oshstats/commonstats.html>), but obviously that
number will be better than in less developed nations. Not seeing your point.

The Ghenghis Khan comment is like.. what? The Mongol conquest killed over
40 million according to wiki!

I might write to /dev/null instead if this is all the response I get..
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From intelemetry at openmailbox.org  Mon Nov  2 15:38:11 2015
From: intelemetry at openmailbox.org (intelemetry)
Date: Mon, 2 Nov 2015 23:38:11 +0000
Subject: Anarchist roads and free travel
In-Reply-To: <CAOsGNSTCMr0p0Bko64boUy8A07kAgHjbO9FR5-3Ao7Kiyo49NA@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAOsGNSTCMr0p0Bko64boUy8A07kAgHjbO9FR5-3Ao7Kiyo49NA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <5637F3E3.7030109@openmailbox.org>



Zenaan Harkness:
> Beginner anarchist alert. Wanting to get a better understanding of
> possible outcomes.
> 
> On 11/1/15, intelemetry <intelemetry at openmailbox.org> wrote:
>> Democracy is the tyranny of the majority, and assassination politics
>> is dangerous in that regard when they are coupled. Private arbitration
>> agreements with private security forces wherein mobility has
>> reciprocal agreements (similar to current travel) seems more reasonable.
> 
> How would we handle road-building rent-seekers (i.e. those who would
> collect tax/ rent for travel) - i.e. at the moment in Australia banks
> give loans to private companies to build roads, which by illegal
> (unconstitutional) contracts, massive rents/ taxes over many decades,
> are collected from the population?
>

Toll roads. Pay for what you use.

Bank at Nugen-Hand if you want privacy:

	https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nugan_Hand_Bank

> How would the idea of "all have a right to travel anonymously and
> absolutely freely (free from tax, free from arbitrary punishment)" be
> manifested in a political anarchy country?
> 

There is no "right to anonymity" in anarcho-capitalism. If there is a
market for privacy then it will be met proportional to the demand.

> How do we manifest a community wide idea of free travel (implying a
> majority interest in infrastructure built and provided at cost) with
> the freedom of "rent seekers" and "land owners/ infrastructure
> builders" to "freely engage in construction and contract with
> travelers upon the roads"?
> 

Talk to John Gilmore. Just kidding. An anarchocapitalist would disagree
that travel should necessarily be free. The second answer regarding
"engaging in construction and contract": an entrepreneur builds a toll
road and runs it as a business. Part of the initial investment is the
contracting with land owners. Or call yourself the state and steal the
land.

> Is this a prisoner's dilemma?

You are number 6.

> Although all our roads in Australia were free from "all evil tolls"
> for much of a century, the rent seekers corrupted our politicians with
> much greese, and now road tolls pop up all over the country. How would
> political anarchism not "degrade" to the power of financial corruption
> in a similar way as our demoncratic governments?
> 

The notion that tolls are "evil" is a misnomer. In the context of the
state it is potentially an additional tax. But paying to use a private
road is not evil in nature.

> ---
> In Australia, our "democratic powers/ goverment" have facilitated
> illegal contracts and multi decade rent seekers to tax the population
> on roads already paid for by the government.
> 
> Notwithstanding that the jetsons era may make the question of roads
> per se less relevant over time, this question in my mind arises
> regarding political anarchism and what is termed 'natural monopolies',
> in this specific thread, roads.
> 
> The Great Charter, or Magna Carta/ Charter, proscribes that there
> shall "be no evil tolls" - which means no travel checkpoints requiring
> fee payment, i.e. tax collection at point of passing, commonly today
> called "road tolls" (at least in Australia). This was to protect
> merchants against the taxing intention, and it is a given that this
> also includes those not engaging in commerce but still traveling.
> 
> Here in Australia not only do we have the present day continuation of
> the Magna Carta and the English Bill of Rights (and many other
> Imperial Statutes) active within the jurisdictions of our states
> (although most people are not aware of this, the courts and
> legislation are aware of it) we also have Section 92 of our federal
> constitution which states "trade commerce and intercourse [travel]
> amongst the states, shall be absolutely free", which interpretation is
> open to some debate in political circles despite how it reads to the
> common man.
> 
> In Australia the Imperial Statutes are firmly entrenched thanks to:
> - The Commonwealth of Australia Constitution Act (our federal
> constitution) which invokes the Crown;
> - The Imperial Acts Application Act (respectively, in each state, such
> as New South Wales, Victoria, etc);
> - The Australia High Court (our highest court) rulings of Mabo and in
> particular Mabo 2 (I think 1999).

There's always neurocam.

> 
> Despite what ought be protection, our demoncratic parliaments have
> sold our roads to the highest bidder, which in our case is nearly
> always Macquarie Bank.

This is neocorporatism. When the state fixes an auction you don't have a
free market.

> 
> Zenaan
> 




From intelemetry at openmailbox.org  Mon Nov  2 15:39:29 2015
From: intelemetry at openmailbox.org (intelemetry)
Date: Mon, 2 Nov 2015 23:39:29 +0000
Subject: Anarchist roads and free travel
In-Reply-To: <CAOsGNSTCMr0p0Bko64boUy8A07kAgHjbO9FR5-3Ao7Kiyo49NA@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAOsGNSTCMr0p0Bko64boUy8A07kAgHjbO9FR5-3Ao7Kiyo49NA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <5637F431.1010305@openmailbox.org>

Sorry to top post:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Free-market_roads
https://mises.ca/posts/blog/but-who-will-build-the-roads/

Zenaan Harkness:
> Beginner anarchist alert. Wanting to get a better understanding of
> possible outcomes.
> 
> On 11/1/15, intelemetry <intelemetry at openmailbox.org> wrote:
>> Democracy is the tyranny of the majority, and assassination politics
>> is dangerous in that regard when they are coupled. Private arbitration
>> agreements with private security forces wherein mobility has
>> reciprocal agreements (similar to current travel) seems more reasonable.
> 
> How would we handle road-building rent-seekers (i.e. those who would
> collect tax/ rent for travel) - i.e. at the moment in Australia banks
> give loans to private companies to build roads, which by illegal
> (unconstitutional) contracts, massive rents/ taxes over many decades,
> are collected from the population?
> 
> How would the idea of "all have a right to travel anonymously and
> absolutely freely (free from tax, free from arbitrary punishment)" be
> manifested in a political anarchy country?
> 
> How do we manifest a community wide idea of free travel (implying a
> majority interest in infrastructure built and provided at cost) with
> the freedom of "rent seekers" and "land owners/ infrastructure
> builders" to "freely engage in construction and contract with
> travelers upon the roads"?
> 
> Is this a prisoner's dilemma?
> 
> Although all our roads in Australia were free from "all evil tolls"
> for much of a century, the rent seekers corrupted our politicians with
> much greese, and now road tolls pop up all over the country. How would
> political anarchism not "degrade" to the power of financial corruption
> in a similar way as our demoncratic governments?
> 
> ---
> In Australia, our "democratic powers/ goverment" have facilitated
> illegal contracts and multi decade rent seekers to tax the population
> on roads already paid for by the government.
> 
> Notwithstanding that the jetsons era may make the question of roads
> per se less relevant over time, this question in my mind arises
> regarding political anarchism and what is termed 'natural monopolies',
> in this specific thread, roads.
> 
> The Great Charter, or Magna Carta/ Charter, proscribes that there
> shall "be no evil tolls" - which means no travel checkpoints requiring
> fee payment, i.e. tax collection at point of passing, commonly today
> called "road tolls" (at least in Australia). This was to protect
> merchants against the taxing intention, and it is a given that this
> also includes those not engaging in commerce but still traveling.
> 
> Here in Australia not only do we have the present day continuation of
> the Magna Carta and the English Bill of Rights (and many other
> Imperial Statutes) active within the jurisdictions of our states
> (although most people are not aware of this, the courts and
> legislation are aware of it) we also have Section 92 of our federal
> constitution which states "trade commerce and intercourse [travel]
> amongst the states, shall be absolutely free", which interpretation is
> open to some debate in political circles despite how it reads to the
> common man.
> 
> In Australia the Imperial Statutes are firmly entrenched thanks to:
> - The Commonwealth of Australia Constitution Act (our federal
> constitution) which invokes the Crown;
> - The Imperial Acts Application Act (respectively, in each state, such
> as New South Wales, Victoria, etc);
> - The Australia High Court (our highest court) rulings of Mabo and in
> particular Mabo 2 (I think 1999).
> 
> Despite what ought be protection, our demoncratic parliaments have
> sold our roads to the highest bidder, which in our case is nearly
> always Macquarie Bank.
> 
> Zenaan
> 




From intelemetry at openmailbox.org  Mon Nov  2 15:42:14 2015
From: intelemetry at openmailbox.org (intelemetry)
Date: Mon, 2 Nov 2015 23:42:14 +0000
Subject: Anarchist roads and free travel
In-Reply-To: <CAOsGNSTCMr0p0Bko64boUy8A07kAgHjbO9FR5-3Ao7Kiyo49NA@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAOsGNSTCMr0p0Bko64boUy8A07kAgHjbO9FR5-3Ao7Kiyo49NA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <5637F4D6.1090704@openmailbox.org>



Zenaan Harkness:
> Beginner anarchist alert. Wanting to get a better understanding of
> possible outcomes.
> 
> On 11/1/15, intelemetry <intelemetry at openmailbox.org> wrote:
>> Democracy is the tyranny of the majority, and assassination politics
>> is dangerous in that regard when they are coupled. Private arbitration
>> agreements with private security forces wherein mobility has
>> reciprocal agreements (similar to current travel) seems more reasonable.
> 
> How would we handle road-building rent-seekers (i.e. those who would
> collect tax/ rent for travel) - i.e. at the moment in Australia banks
> give loans to private companies to build roads, which by illegal
> (unconstitutional) contracts, massive rents/ taxes over many decades,
> are collected from the population?

This is called a 'subsidy.'

https://mises.org/library/snare-government-subsidies
https://mises.org/library/robbery-subsidy

> 
> How would the idea of "all have a right to travel anonymously and
> absolutely freely (free from tax, free from arbitrary punishment)" be
> manifested in a political anarchy country?
> 
> How do we manifest a community wide idea of free travel (implying a
> majority interest in infrastructure built and provided at cost) with
> the freedom of "rent seekers" and "land owners/ infrastructure
> builders" to "freely engage in construction and contract with
> travelers upon the roads"?
> 
> Is this a prisoner's dilemma?
> 
> Although all our roads in Australia were free from "all evil tolls"
> for much of a century, the rent seekers corrupted our politicians with
> much greese, and now road tolls pop up all over the country. How would
> political anarchism not "degrade" to the power of financial corruption
> in a similar way as our demoncratic governments?
> 
> ---
> In Australia, our "democratic powers/ goverment" have facilitated
> illegal contracts and multi decade rent seekers to tax the population
> on roads already paid for by the government.
> 
> Notwithstanding that the jetsons era may make the question of roads
> per se less relevant over time, this question in my mind arises
> regarding political anarchism and what is termed 'natural monopolies',
> in this specific thread, roads.
> 
> The Great Charter, or Magna Carta/ Charter, proscribes that there
> shall "be no evil tolls" - which means no travel checkpoints requiring
> fee payment, i.e. tax collection at point of passing, commonly today
> called "road tolls" (at least in Australia). This was to protect
> merchants against the taxing intention, and it is a given that this
> also includes those not engaging in commerce but still traveling.
> 
> Here in Australia not only do we have the present day continuation of
> the Magna Carta and the English Bill of Rights (and many other
> Imperial Statutes) active within the jurisdictions of our states
> (although most people are not aware of this, the courts and
> legislation are aware of it) we also have Section 92 of our federal
> constitution which states "trade commerce and intercourse [travel]
> amongst the states, shall be absolutely free", which interpretation is
> open to some debate in political circles despite how it reads to the
> common man.
> 
> In Australia the Imperial Statutes are firmly entrenched thanks to:
> - The Commonwealth of Australia Constitution Act (our federal
> constitution) which invokes the Crown;
> - The Imperial Acts Application Act (respectively, in each state, such
> as New South Wales, Victoria, etc);
> - The Australia High Court (our highest court) rulings of Mabo and in
> particular Mabo 2 (I think 1999).
> 
> Despite what ought be protection, our demoncratic parliaments have
> sold our roads to the highest bidder, which in our case is nearly
> always Macquarie Bank.
> 
> Zenaan
> 




From zen at freedbms.net  Mon Nov  2 15:59:18 2015
From: zen at freedbms.net (Zenaan Harkness)
Date: Mon, 2 Nov 2015 23:59:18 +0000
Subject: Such a democratic American
In-Reply-To: <289256679.Dsi0LAtNf9@lapuntu>
References: <CAOsGNSQ4WJGK=UUe9SW0d14iL2matCvT_gkVXxSvqP6edHha+g@mail.gmail.com>
 <289256679.Dsi0LAtNf9@lapuntu>
Message-ID: <CAOsGNSQhGeGCAOydbVcv+Eg9xhk8iwT5aNZ=x6kROz=hvsG50Q@mail.gmail.com>

On 10/31/15, rysiek <rysiek at hackerspace.pl> wrote:
> Dnia sobota, 31 października 2015 04:55:45 Zenaan Harkness pisze:
>> "Ukrainian Wikileaks: McCain and Saakashvili are plotting to shoot
>> down American plane in Syria to blame Russia [transcript]"
>> http://fortruss.blogspot.ru/2015/10/ukrainian-wikileaks-mccain-and.html
>
> I am starting to wonder if this is the "Bashing America" mailing list. I
> mean,
> not a huge fan of the US regime myself, but "cypherpunks" -- it seems to me
> --
> sugests at least a bit of tech-related stuff.

I would hope that content that does not interest you, is so
interesting that you cannot skip over it and instead avidly read in
detail. I'm going back to mutt soon, and it has a wonderful keyboard
shortcut I'm so jealous of in these unfortunate for me gmail days,
"d", which I really do miss. Also, I don't want to learn how to make
gmail "as good as possible", since I'd rather put up with the pain to
encourage me to clean house.

Re topics, I have been reading enormous number of political articles
in the last months, and I make a best effort to post only the cream of
the crop. That is of course very subjective.

Here is one you might like to watch - may give an insight into "why"
Gaddafi "had to be killed" (the clip is about 9 minutes and 23.04MiB):
http://russia-insider.com/en/bowing-silly-us-propaganda/ri10791

I feel very strongly that there are great political and "disrespect
for human life" problems going on on our little planet. Tor was very
inspiring for me when I first learned about it a few years back for
example, but I do not believe that TBB by itself can cause the
political shifts we need. I think only the collapse of oppressive
illegal regimes such as USA gov and the turmoil J S Pack might
experience from that, will be enough to wake Joe up sufficiently to
the degradation of the current global political reality.

For me, the evil perpetrated by USA is a great sadness to me. Sadly,
in the face of the relative comfort of enough JSPacks, and in the face
of the domination and abuse by the government, without societal
collapse the people, the Joes and Janes, DO NOT defend their
constitution in its spirit, and FAIL to change the game from within
the borders of experiment America.

This current global hegemon therefore absolutely must end. Yesterday
Obama removed USAgov's debt ceiling - there is no longer a statutory
debt ceiling, and therefore no more "extraordinary measures". Yes, the
upper limit for tax collection vs interest payments is still 2023, yes
it will still collapse way before then, and this is the good news -
the next reset is a mathematical certainty.

My hope is that the average Joe lifts his game when (and if I guess)
turmoil erupts.

Good luck,
Zenaan




From zen at freedbms.net  Mon Nov  2 16:05:18 2015
From: zen at freedbms.net (Zenaan Harkness)
Date: Tue, 3 Nov 2015 00:05:18 +0000
Subject: Shiny stuff and designer societies
In-Reply-To: <5637F421.60806@riseup.net>
References: <CAHWD2rJNTxt2+=0rPkkc+323pTn-njkvJVgUE624LShu2xg1Eg@mail.gmail.com>
 <150b0aeef50.276e.4d489027c0c4d0c1b1ca03a1f48f1ffb@misanthropia.org>
 <20151028231728.1A96CC00019@frontend1.nyi.internal>
 <CAOsGNSThwv=c9K4v4HkD27PD+wY9+XykyTNOWs=7FOwPpxctZw@mail.gmail.com>
 <150b1290920.276e.4d489027c0c4d0c1b1ca03a1f48f1ffb@misanthropia.org>
 <20151029013945.C7D9FC00012@frontend1.nyi.internal>
 <CAHWD2rLJ0RgxcGZi=mKD=OfYYtCy1j9sfbzDKOVZuuX5EPCnJg@mail.gmail.com>
 <56327869.361f8c0a.efb1c.692d@mx.google.com>
 <CAHWD2rLBHnMHYnLZfYWfvvY9vQnxxrTp5Pk88H5mFoXO6+KW7g@mail.gmail.com>
 <5633e047.b3588c0a.28e5f.1db7@mx.google.com>
 <CAHWD2r+h3OsK0eAhU50PnRVBv-tULNWqQbYFbkOyqMyeAdOSDQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <563691c8.d3828c0a.96ed7.044b@mx.google.com>
 <CAHWD2rLSbth8iSSf7zGyswb3n=d5v9u=hJ-Q-TWr7f2Q3mfDCQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <5637D028.1060901@riseup.net>
 <CAHWD2rJTpXeC6Q582hZ4QZqA2nvZYxa95mUo_4grhV3D-B9bpg@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAOsGNSQiJH9ueyrqAeuHwKGMKQF+vAw47q8QFkaR_0J=FYES7g@mail.gmail.com>
 <5637F421.60806@riseup.net>
Message-ID: <CAOsGNSTT8HzHs_+tUeFLANZNUASsk8=CmtazwmOmcio53jFYBw@mail.gmail.com>

On 11/2/15, Razer <Rayzer at riseup.net> wrote:
> On 11/02/2015 03:12 PM, Zenaan Harkness wrote:
>> On 11/2/15, Lodewijk andré de la porte <l at odewijk.nl> wrote:
>>> 2015-11-02 22:05 GMT+01:00 Razer <Rayzer at riseup.net>:
>>>> It's unlikely that all the warriors Genghis Khan ever mustered had
>>>> collectively even eyeballed a million people in their lifetimes.
>>> What do you mean? Seriously! Millions of civilians a year? What???
>>>
>>> WW1 totalled       < 260k
>>> WW2 totalled       < 55000k (including famine and disease related)
>> Huh? Dunno where you figures are coming from. Let's pick the hardest
>
> If "55000k" means 55 thousand thousand it comes a little closer.

My bad, thanks. Mental muscle memory kicked in on seeing a number
followed by "k". 55M would have landed correctly. Apologies for the
noise.




From zen at freedbms.net  Mon Nov  2 16:24:22 2015
From: zen at freedbms.net (Zenaan Harkness)
Date: Tue, 3 Nov 2015 00:24:22 +0000
Subject: Facebook censorship
Message-ID: <CAOsGNSTjOUT-_qEV3EEYF-+0y3khwcc4xFyzBzGh17=Q7oyxPw@mail.gmail.com>

http://russia-insider.com/en/zakharchenkos-new-facebook-page-blocked/ri10875

Nothing new to cp-ers I guess - I remember about 7 years ago a video/
slide presentation that circulated - on facebook no less, showing the
leadership of FB was mostly ex-CIA, ex-NSA. (Yes, I carefully look out
from my brown paper bag - I did log in to facebook for a few weeks.)
Z




From komachi at openmailbox.org  Mon Nov  2 17:24:18 2015
From: komachi at openmailbox.org (Anton Nesterov)
Date: Tue, 03 Nov 2015 01:24:18 +0000
Subject: Facebook censorship
In-Reply-To: <CAOsGNSTjOUT-_qEV3EEYF-+0y3khwcc4xFyzBzGh17=Q7oyxPw@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAOsGNSTjOUT-_qEV3EEYF-+0y3khwcc4xFyzBzGh17=Q7oyxPw@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <56380CC2.2070506@openmailbox.org>

I don't think it was ordered by Facebook leadership or something like
that. The truth is that FB has pretty flawed mechanism of blocking, so
any page that received many abuses from FB users will be banned for some
time without any action from FB mods. Both pro-Ukrainian and pro-Russian
pages were banned many times this way, including ones with verified
accounts. Here is some The Guardian report on blocking Russian
opposition activists and Ukrainian bloggers pages, for example
http://www.theguardian.com/world/2015/jun/17/facebook-pro-kremlin-attacks-russia
So there is no conspiracy, just a lot of users abusing FB's abuse
mechanism and FB doing nothing with that.

But FB really censored an event page of opposition rally in Russia
following Russian request
http://mashable.com/2014/12/22/facebook-blocks-opposition-rally-page-russia/

Zenaan Harkness:
> http://russia-insider.com/en/zakharchenkos-new-facebook-page-blocked/ri10875
> 
> Nothing new to cp-ers I guess - I remember about 7 years ago a video/
> slide presentation that circulated - on facebook no less, showing the
> leadership of FB was mostly ex-CIA, ex-NSA. (Yes, I carefully look out
> from my brown paper bag - I did log in to facebook for a few weeks.)
> Z
> 


-- 
https://nesterov.pw
GPG key: 0CE8 65F1 9043 2B11 25A5 74A7 1187 6869 67AA 56E4
https://keybase.io/komachi/key.asc




From l at odewijk.nl  Mon Nov  2 16:45:51 2015
From: l at odewijk.nl (=?UTF-8?Q?Lodewijk_andr=C3=A9_de_la_porte?=)
Date: Tue, 3 Nov 2015 01:45:51 +0100
Subject: Shiny stuff and designer societies
In-Reply-To: <CAOsGNSTT8HzHs_+tUeFLANZNUASsk8=CmtazwmOmcio53jFYBw@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAHWD2rJNTxt2+=0rPkkc+323pTn-njkvJVgUE624LShu2xg1Eg@mail.gmail.com>
 <150b0aeef50.276e.4d489027c0c4d0c1b1ca03a1f48f1ffb@misanthropia.org>
 <20151028231728.1A96CC00019@frontend1.nyi.internal>
 <CAOsGNSThwv=c9K4v4HkD27PD+wY9+XykyTNOWs=7FOwPpxctZw@mail.gmail.com>
 <150b1290920.276e.4d489027c0c4d0c1b1ca03a1f48f1ffb@misanthropia.org>
 <20151029013945.C7D9FC00012@frontend1.nyi.internal>
 <CAHWD2rLJ0RgxcGZi=mKD=OfYYtCy1j9sfbzDKOVZuuX5EPCnJg@mail.gmail.com>
 <56327869.361f8c0a.efb1c.692d@mx.google.com>
 <CAHWD2rLBHnMHYnLZfYWfvvY9vQnxxrTp5Pk88H5mFoXO6+KW7g@mail.gmail.com>
 <5633e047.b3588c0a.28e5f.1db7@mx.google.com>
 <CAHWD2r+h3OsK0eAhU50PnRVBv-tULNWqQbYFbkOyqMyeAdOSDQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <563691c8.d3828c0a.96ed7.044b@mx.google.com>
 <CAHWD2rLSbth8iSSf7zGyswb3n=d5v9u=hJ-Q-TWr7f2Q3mfDCQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <5637D028.1060901@riseup.net>
 <CAHWD2rJTpXeC6Q582hZ4QZqA2nvZYxa95mUo_4grhV3D-B9bpg@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAOsGNSQiJH9ueyrqAeuHwKGMKQF+vAw47q8QFkaR_0J=FYES7g@mail.gmail.com>
 <5637F421.60806@riseup.net>
 <CAOsGNSTT8HzHs_+tUeFLANZNUASsk8=CmtazwmOmcio53jFYBw@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAHWD2r+Ct39aYWak21M0Oj49W9jw+S5iRLBgLPp9VUHgH+N5sQ@mail.gmail.com>

>Millions of civilians a year?<

>civilians<
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From grarpamp at gmail.com  Tue Nov  3 00:12:57 2015
From: grarpamp at gmail.com (grarpamp)
Date: Tue, 3 Nov 2015 03:12:57 -0500
Subject: Shiny stuff and designer societies
In-Reply-To: <20151103033154.B3E23A06D87@palinka.tinho.net>
References: <CAOsGNST3TU-vBw+bT1uh-_t6RfT+_ifdQ0v6_hTf-9Vsd18cng@mail.gmail.com>
 <20151103033154.B3E23A06D87@palinka.tinho.net>
Message-ID: <CAD2Ti29j53BMDGL8=83H1SfdC7VXsBTUu4ayWzKpZozccR7o7A@mail.gmail.com>

On Mon, Nov 2, 2015 at 10:31 PM,  <dan at geer.org> wrote:
> look up "algorithmic regulation" ... soon enough there will be no
> one to argue with in the sense of no person who made the decision
> with which you find yourself disagreeing.

Destroy it, before your self becomes canceled by, or lost in, it.
The only other option is suicide.




From chasintail at emailcontrol.org  Mon Nov  2 19:51:36 2015
From: chasintail at emailcontrol.org (Cubed)
Date: Tue, 3 Nov 2015 03:51:36 +0000
Subject: Facebook censorship
In-Reply-To: <56380CC2.2070506@openmailbox.org>
References: <CAOsGNSTjOUT-_qEV3EEYF-+0y3khwcc4xFyzBzGh17=Q7oyxPw@mail.gmail.com>
 <56380CC2.2070506@openmailbox.org>
Message-ID: <20151103035136.50a9ff16@emailcontrol.org>

I, personally, think it was artful how the russian-insider.com/en so
skillfully spun this article as pseudo-American censorship of
Ukranian-Russian speech to the numb-minded skim/headline reader. When
in reality, as the article plainly lays out, and to echo Komachi's
sentiments, FB doesn't personally block anyone's page (or nearly
anyone/anything). FB relies on their users to self-moderate the content
that they profit off of. Also pointed out in the article, the
ban-stick ninjas were "Ukrainian trolls" (one man's troll is another
man's propagandist, uh, I mean publicist) hailing from, obviously, a
different political background. 

What we see here is the first signs of singularity. Before long, these
propaganda articles will be algorithmically written, automatically
published, and will start to interact with each in ways we could never
have predicted resulting in outcomes outside of the scope of our
imaginations. 

Back in reality-land though, I don't FB often... but when I do, I
https://www.facebookcorewwwi.onion/


Three
Freedom Fighter, aka another man's terrorist



On Tue, 03 Nov 2015 01:24:18 +0000
Anton Nesterov <komachi at openmailbox.org> wrote:

> I don't think it was ordered by Facebook leadership or something like
> that. The truth is that FB has pretty flawed mechanism of blocking, so
> any page that received many abuses from FB users will be banned for
> some time without any action from FB mods. Both pro-Ukrainian and
> pro-Russian pages were banned many times this way, including ones
> with verified accounts. Here is some The Guardian report on blocking
> Russian opposition activists and Ukrainian bloggers pages, for example
> http://www.theguardian.com/world/2015/jun/17/facebook-pro-kremlin-attacks-russia
> So there is no conspiracy, just a lot of users abusing FB's abuse
> mechanism and FB doing nothing with that.
> 
> But FB really censored an event page of opposition rally in Russia
> following Russian request
> http://mashable.com/2014/12/22/facebook-blocks-opposition-rally-page-russia/
> 
> Zenaan Harkness:
> > http://russia-insider.com/en/zakharchenkos-new-facebook-page-blocked/ri10875
> > 
> > Nothing new to cp-ers I guess - I remember about 7 years ago a
> > video/ slide presentation that circulated - on facebook no less,
> > showing the leadership of FB was mostly ex-CIA, ex-NSA. (Yes, I
> > carefully look out from my brown paper bag - I did log in to
> > facebook for a few weeks.) Z
> > 
> 
> 




From chasintail at emailcontrol.org  Mon Nov  2 22:07:50 2015
From: chasintail at emailcontrol.org (Cubed)
Date: Tue, 3 Nov 2015 06:07:50 +0000
Subject: slow strangulation of the state, instead of violent phase
 transition out of state
In-Reply-To: <CAJVRA1QtGkhNWEb0KTMGOA+ui5MmFVeYoS2350vzTTxMnN=-tA@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAJVRA1QtGkhNWEb0KTMGOA+ui5MmFVeYoS2350vzTTxMnN=-tA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <20151103060750.1107a41e@emailcontrol.org>

Reminds me of this thing my parents used to fuss about called "church". 

It's hard to believe that people used to kill and be killed over their
belief systems. Beliefs they professed to be truths. Truths because of
faith. All so they could provide answers to questions before they were
comfortable with questions in search of meaning. All so they could
produce a one or a zero, black or white, right or wrong, good or evil.
All this smoke and mirrors so they could ignore how incredibly vast
everything was and still is.

There are no absolutes. 

Humans mostly stopped wide-scale killing because god had their back. Now
they mainly only kill at that rate because their president has their
back or their {insert leader/father-figure with the answers} gives them
the courage. Large-scale killing is on the decline, and it's no
coincidence humans have more access to information than ever before.

Ignorance is pretty dangerous stuff; I'd bet more dangerous than
smoking, heroin, and driving completely blitzed, put together. Times,
like, three.

Irrelevancy is the fate of those lacking innovation. Every great
empire, like every huge conglomerate, eventually plays Goliath to
little David. Except, as you quite nicely stated, David doesn't even
show up to the battle in the drama of our reality. Instead, David
transcends the paradigms of conflict Goliath expects, leaving a quiet
and empty battlefield to a confused "opponent". One by one, the crowd
leaves. People go home, people go work their crops, people learn new
things Goliath is soon forgotten and David himself become irrelevant. 

---

Quantum entanglement leads, eventually, to quantum computers and the
next generation of everything. Every piece of security software
re-audited, at the very least. All our encryption threatened if not
outright broken within months. 

Goliath tries desperately to read but cannot see the screen. Goliath
asks Hilda to help, and she wisely asks the smartest little guy to help
Goliath understand. 

David finished the "Plum3/7" QC and heard Hilda announce the search for
QC research. Some of David's students go to help, meanwhile, David
hacks away with the greatest minds throughout the world. 

Goliath makes a new weapon and a better fleshlight.

David and colleagues become one hive mind known as (@. 

Goliath begins taxation attacks and regulation warfare. 

(@ transcends biology, mines the planet's most dense material all at
once by tapping into subtle electro-magnetic fields that flow through
all living things. (@ grows ever larger as more and more people shed
their human form to adopt their new form. 

Goliath and Hilda change their names to Go and Hi. They tax carbon,
though no one pays it, just like they don't pay the quantum tax.

Soon, Go and Hi go bye bye. 

(@ transforms the earth into a massive mind, comprised of the
computational power of the density of all matter, powered by every
human willing to contribute. Then, the earth itself becomes a massive
electromagnet through powers I can't understand. Everything collapses
into itself and the planet begins sucking up the surrounding light
year of space matter. Now a huge black hole with every conscious mind
working on thoughts that our human minds are incapable of conceiving, a
certain harmony is reached as earth begins to communicate with all of
the other ancient civilizations that reached such a level of being.
Black holes are no more holes in space than are donut holes for
breakfast. They are super massive insanely dense computational objects
containing the conscious minds of billions of people. 


Hope you enjoyed!
Three



On Sun, 1 Nov 2015 12:11:37 -0800
coderman <coderman at gmail.com> wrote:

> On 11/1/15, intelemetry <intelemetry at openmailbox.org> wrote:
> > ...
> > I would suggest you consider the countereconomics work of SEK (e.g.
> > agorism) and Vaclav Benda. Benda is an interesting case because he
> > did his work on parallel structures while under the Soviet Union.
> >
> > The conclusion was that -- in the presence of an oppressive state
> > -- a robust solution was an overlay of private and hidden societies
> > as opposed to direct overt warfare with the state.
> 
> 
> supplant the state with multiplicity of better mechanisms,
>  and through this usurp the power and authority of the state,
>   until nothing left but hollow fictions of formality (of former
> state).




From themikebest at gmail.com  Tue Nov  3 04:10:55 2015
From: themikebest at gmail.com (Michael Best)
Date: Tue, 3 Nov 2015 07:10:55 -0500
Subject: 62 people pleaded guilty to refusing to divulge encryption passwords
Message-ID: <CANFTA09UmHLm=x9NWhjayq9EhKaNHrQxVy1EkOTm2BAHz6L__g@mail.gmail.com>

Convictions of suspects who refuse to hand over their encrypted passwords
have risen sixfold in four years, potentially blocking police from
examining their electronic devices.

The sharp increase has led to fears that criminals are opting to plead
guilty to encryption offences rather than allow detectives to go through
their computers and phones, which could lead to more serious charges and
longer sentences.

http://www.thetimes.co.uk/tto/news/uk/crime/article4603026.ece

Gareth Corfield, editor for The Register, added "On that RIPA stats story,
it's been fed to The Times as part of the Snooper's Charter PR push from
stats not previously made public."
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From tom at vondein.org  Mon Nov  2 23:14:57 2015
From: tom at vondein.org (Tom)
Date: Tue, 3 Nov 2015 08:14:57 +0100
Subject: Facebook censorship
In-Reply-To: <20151103035136.50a9ff16@emailcontrol.org>
References: <CAOsGNSTjOUT-_qEV3EEYF-+0y3khwcc4xFyzBzGh17=Q7oyxPw@mail.gmail.com>
 <56380CC2.2070506@openmailbox.org>
 <20151103035136.50a9ff16@emailcontrol.org>
Message-ID: <20151103071457.GT97416@r4>

On Tue, Nov 03, 2015 at 03:51:36AM +0000, Cubed wrote:
> What we see here is the first signs of singularity. Before long, these
> propaganda articles will be algorithmically written, automatically
> published, and will start to interact with each in ways we could never
> have predicted resulting in outcomes outside of the scope of our
> imaginations. 

Besides, that's already possible: http://clickotron.com/. Article:
http://larseidnes.com/2015/10/13/auto-generating-clickbait-with-recurrent-neural-networks/.

:)



- Tom




From Rayzer at riseup.net  Tue Nov  3 08:40:04 2015
From: Rayzer at riseup.net (Razer)
Date: Tue, 3 Nov 2015 08:40:04 -0800
Subject: Shiny stuff and designer societies
In-Reply-To: <5637f6d8.765c8c0a.3fe2d.ffff8f9f@mx.google.com>
References: <CAHWD2rJNTxt2+=0rPkkc+323pTn-njkvJVgUE624LShu2xg1Eg@mail.gmail.com>
 <20151028231728.1A96CC00019@frontend1.nyi.internal>
 <CAOsGNSThwv=c9K4v4HkD27PD+wY9+XykyTNOWs=7FOwPpxctZw@mail.gmail.com>
 <150b1290920.276e.4d489027c0c4d0c1b1ca03a1f48f1ffb@misanthropia.org>
 <20151029013945.C7D9FC00012@frontend1.nyi.internal>
 <CAHWD2rLJ0RgxcGZi=mKD=OfYYtCy1j9sfbzDKOVZuuX5EPCnJg@mail.gmail.com>
 <56327869.361f8c0a.efb1c.692d@mx.google.com>
 <CAHWD2rLBHnMHYnLZfYWfvvY9vQnxxrTp5Pk88H5mFoXO6+KW7g@mail.gmail.com>
 <5633e047.b3588c0a.28e5f.1db7@mx.google.com>
 <CAHWD2r+h3OsK0eAhU50PnRVBv-tULNWqQbYFbkOyqMyeAdOSDQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <563691c8.d3828c0a.96ed7.044b@mx.google.com>
 <CAHWD2rLSbth8iSSf7zGyswb3n=d5v9u=hJ-Q-TWr7f2Q3mfDCQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <5637D028.1060901@riseup.net>
 <CAHWD2rJTpXeC6Q582hZ4QZqA2nvZYxa95mUo_4grhV3D-B9bpg@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAOsGNSQiJH9ueyrqAeuHwKGMKQF+vAw47q8QFkaR_0J=FYES7g@mail.gmail.com>
 <5637F421.60806@riseup.net> <5637f6d8.765c8c0a.3fe2d.ffff8f9f@mx.google.com>
Message-ID: <5638E364.20803@riseup.net>



On 11/02/2015 03:57 PM, Juan wrote:
> On Mon, 2 Nov 2015 15:39:13 -0800
> Razer <Rayzer at riseup.net> wrote:
>
>
>> Mongols/40M I'm not buying at all.
> 	yeah, sounds like western propaganda, but even if true, it
> 	would be just another example of atate-organized violence. 
>
> 	Or are we supposed to believe that mongol armies were an
> 	example of natural rights anarchy at work. 

If you believe Feudalism is that... Some people do...

The Mongols had a very brutal HIERARCHY (emphasis intentional)

RR


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From grarpamp at gmail.com  Tue Nov  3 09:27:11 2015
From: grarpamp at gmail.com (grarpamp)
Date: Tue, 3 Nov 2015 12:27:11 -0500
Subject: UK To Ban Crypto In Devices, Email And More
Message-ID: <CAD2Ti29w4u9RMOt_gRvWe-vYo_So4R4XyfOYJcqEe_XzPGAL4A@mail.gmail.com>

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/terrorism-in-the-uk/11970391/Internet-firms-to-be-banned-from-offering-out-of-reach-communications-under-new-laws.html

Internet firms to be banned from offering unbreakable encryption under new laws

3:16PM GMT 02 Nov 2015

Internet and social media companies will be banned from putting
customer communications beyond their own reach under new laws to be
unveiled on Wednesday.
Companies such as Apple, Google and others will no longer be able to
offer encryption so advanced that even they cannot decipher it when
asked to, the Daily Telegraph can disclose.
Measures in the Investigatory Powers Bill will place in law a
requirement on tech firms and service providers to be able to provide
unencrypted communications to the police or spy agencies if requested
through a warrant.




From zen at freedbms.net  Tue Nov  3 04:35:20 2015
From: zen at freedbms.net (Zenaan Harkness)
Date: Tue, 3 Nov 2015 12:35:20 +0000
Subject: 62 people pleaded guilty to refusing to divulge encryption
 passwords
In-Reply-To: <CANFTA09UmHLm=x9NWhjayq9EhKaNHrQxVy1EkOTm2BAHz6L__g@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CANFTA09UmHLm=x9NWhjayq9EhKaNHrQxVy1EkOTm2BAHz6L__g@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAOsGNSQ+9cd1K-AsUk90uaMpbtO4Hu9DokiB2pvBttvPwnLw-A@mail.gmail.com>

On 11/3/15, Michael Best <themikebest at gmail.com> wrote:
> Convictions of suspects who refuse to hand over their encrypted passwords
> have risen sixfold in four years, potentially blocking police from
> examining their electronic devices.

On a right to privacy civil disobedience principle, this sounds great.




From jya at pipeline.com  Tue Nov  3 10:20:19 2015
From: jya at pipeline.com (John Young)
Date: Tue, 03 Nov 2015 13:20:19 -0500
Subject: UK To Ban Crypto In Devices, Email And More
In-Reply-To: <CAD2Ti29w4u9RMOt_gRvWe-vYo_So4R4XyfOYJcqEe_XzPGAL4A@mail.g
 mail.com>
References: <CAD2Ti29w4u9RMOt_gRvWe-vYo_So4R4XyfOYJcqEe_XzPGAL4A@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <E1ZtgAi-0000Gy-3v@elasmtp-banded.atl.sa.earthlink.net>

Excellent development if the bill is enacted. Should shatter the complacency
of crypto advocates and foster other means and methods now getting
short shrift due to the faith in crypto hyping and marketing -- and tons of
excuses why crypto has not been as effective as foreordained, blame
users, blame implementation, blame standards committees, blame spies,
blame legislators, blame certificate authorities, blame hardware, blame
insiders and outsiders, blame amateurs, blame backdoors, blame
venal marketers who sold out to authorities, blame duat hatters working
both sides of the porous divide, blame open and closed source, the
pile of excuses grows exponentially as money is heaped onto the
fire for burning through faster and faster. NSA has at least 191 colleges
on the take for information assurance studies, with more joining daily
to get while the getting is good, sending graduates to corporations,
institutes, NGOs, hack world, leak world, defy authority world as
evidenced here in this sacred site of tipped gravestones to cipher
heroics.


At 12:27 PM 11/3/2015, you wrote:
>http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/terrorism-in-the-uk/11970391/Internet-firms-to-be-banned-from-offering-out-of-reach-communications-under-new-laws.html
>
>Internet firms to be banned from offering unbreakable encryption 
>under new laws
>
>3:16PM GMT 02 Nov 2015
>
>Internet and social media companies will be banned from putting
>customer communications beyond their own reach under new laws to be
>unveiled on Wednesday.
>Companies such as Apple, Google and others will no longer be able to
>offer encryption so advanced that even they cannot decipher it when
>asked to, the Daily Telegraph can disclose.
>Measures in the Investigatory Powers Bill will place in law a
>requirement on tech firms and service providers to be able to provide
>unencrypted communications to the police or spy agencies if requested
>through a warrant.





From grarpamp at gmail.com  Tue Nov  3 12:24:30 2015
From: grarpamp at gmail.com (grarpamp)
Date: Tue, 3 Nov 2015 15:24:30 -0500
Subject: [Cryptography] Clipperz
In-Reply-To: <5638D2C4.9030801@impossible-exil.info>
References: <5638D2C4.9030801@impossible-exil.info>
Message-ID: <CAD2Ti28Ss3L4zBb-BMFZvCqd1fTVu=H4X5ZUR8PFzGTQ9dc0Pg@mail.gmail.com>

On Tue, Nov 3, 2015 at 10:29 AM, Stéphane Mourey
<stephane.mourey at impossible-exil.info> wrote:
> Has anyone tryied Clipperz (https://clipperz.is) ?
> In any case, have you an opinion to share about it ?

If they're pushing their miracle crypto code down into your
browser for execution, then it's garbage. So are all other
self proclaimed centralized corporate crypto services that
do the same thing, or force you to use their special client.
Because someday they will either be forced or subverted into
pushing bad code and compromising some user, quite possibly you.
Come back when you can install and pin down peer
reviewed third party crypto code in your browser,
or use any client that meets an open API spec they publish.
Better yet, support and use p2p storage and messaging instead
of central corporate services. Or at least do it locally
and store it on a few $5 shells if you need it online.

> Clipperz... "knows nothing about you and your data"

Nothing? Really? I'll bet anyone on these lists .1337 BTC they do.




From rysiek at hackerspace.pl  Tue Nov  3 07:50:10 2015
From: rysiek at hackerspace.pl (rysiek)
Date: Tue, 03 Nov 2015 16:50:10 +0100
Subject: Shiny stuff and designer societies
In-Reply-To: <5634F0A4.20105@riseup.net>
References: <CAHWD2rJNTxt2+=0rPkkc+323pTn-njkvJVgUE624LShu2xg1Eg@mail.gmail.com>
 <1566593.QzIpNvoidC@lapuntu> <5634F0A4.20105@riseup.net>
Message-ID: <1652521.as9lX8nPxE@lapuntu>

Dnia sobota, 31 października 2015 09:47:32 Razer pisze:
> On 10/30/2015 06:40 PM, rysiek wrote:
> > Dnia środa, 28 października 2015 16:08:44 Lodewijk andré de la porte 
pisze:
> >> New threat, this is offtopic.
> > 
> > How delightfully ironic that Syria is on-topic here:
> > http://rys.io/en/39
> > 
> > 
> > /Preliminary analysis revealed such keywords as /proxy/ and /Israel/
> > were blocked. And of course, much porn/
> 
> /Tsk.
> 
> Btw, whjen Telecomix helps Pirate Bay, they're really assisting
> Cloudflare's logging for da feds. Do they know?/
> (...)

Might I suggest looking at the date of that posting?
It's right there, on bright orange strip, in huge font. :)

-- 
Pozdrawiam,
Michał "rysiek" Woźniak

Zmieniam klucz GPG :: http://rys.io/pl/147
GPG Key Transition :: http://rys.io/en/147
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From rysiek at hackerspace.pl  Tue Nov  3 07:51:05 2015
From: rysiek at hackerspace.pl (rysiek)
Date: Tue, 03 Nov 2015 16:51:05 +0100
Subject: Meet the U.S. Defense Firm Supplying =?UTF-8?B?SXJhbuKAmXM=?=
 Internet
In-Reply-To: <5637B78F.1010901@riseup.net>
References: <56378A73.6050308@riseup.net>
 <20151102172536.GA2762@sivokote.iziade.m$> <5637B78F.1010901@riseup.net>
Message-ID: <2121032.Xm9gO5n7cW@lapuntu>

Dnia poniedziałek, 2 listopada 2015 11:20:47 Razer pisze:
> On 11/02/2015 09:25 AM, Georgi Guninski wrote:
> > On Mon, Nov 02, 2015 at 08:08:19AM -0800, Razer wrote:
> >> <html>
> >> 
> >>   <head>
> >>   
> >>     <meta http-equiv="content-type" content="text/html; charset=utf-8">
> >>   
> >>   </head>
> >>   <body bgcolor="#FFFFFF" text="#000000">
> > 
> > Add 1000 troll points for html only.
> 
> Yeah well, I use Tbird and I cleaned up the copy/paste as well as I
> could... You should have seen the formfield/social button mess.

Just post the damn text next time, thankyouverymuch.

-- 
Pozdrawiam,
Michał "rysiek" Woźniak

Zmieniam klucz GPG :: http://rys.io/pl/147
GPG Key Transition :: http://rys.io/en/147
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From rysiek at hackerspace.pl  Tue Nov  3 07:54:11 2015
From: rysiek at hackerspace.pl (rysiek)
Date: Tue, 03 Nov 2015 16:54:11 +0100
Subject: information imbalance - The Rise of Plitical Doxing [ bonus
 points for contrast with AP! :]
In-Reply-To: <CAJVRA1QgvXG8R12s=M8avNe6sD9kx3pBTt0SRQ2TxcwSxQgybw@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAJVRA1QgvXG8R12s=M8avNe6sD9kx3pBTt0SRQ2TxcwSxQgybw@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <3048476.6y8CuXnfSy@lapuntu>

Dnia sobota, 31 października 2015 20:53:09 coderman pisze:
> http://motherboard.vice.com/read/the-rise-of-political-doxing
> 
> Last week, CIA director John O. Brennan became the latest victim of
> what's become a popular way to embarrass and harass people on the
> internet. A hacker allegedly broke into his AOL account (...)

He still used AOL?
No need for the contents of the account, the mere fact is embarassing enough.

-- 
Pozdrawiam,
Michał "rysiek" Woźniak

Zmieniam klucz GPG :: http://rys.io/pl/147
GPG Key Transition :: http://rys.io/en/147
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From guninski at guninski.com  Tue Nov  3 08:40:28 2015
From: guninski at guninski.com (Georgi Guninski)
Date: Tue, 3 Nov 2015 18:40:28 +0200
Subject: Facebook censorship
In-Reply-To: <20151103035136.50a9ff16@emailcontrol.org>
References: <CAOsGNSTjOUT-_qEV3EEYF-+0y3khwcc4xFyzBzGh17=Q7oyxPw@mail.gmail.com>
 <56380CC2.2070506@openmailbox.org>
 <20151103035136.50a9ff16@emailcontrol.org>
Message-ID: <20151103164028.GA2617@sivokote.iziade.m$>

On Tue, Nov 03, 2015 at 03:51:36AM +0000, Cubed wrote:
> What we see here is the first signs of singularity. Before long, these

By "singularity" do you mean "technological singularity" as defined in
wikipedia (strong AI screws humans)?

I don't think such human made singularity will ever happen for the
simple reason "hacker oligarchs" will control the bots. Extraterrestrial
stuff maybe be possible though.




From oshwm at openmailbox.org  Tue Nov  3 12:42:10 2015
From: oshwm at openmailbox.org (oshwm)
Date: Tue, 03 Nov 2015 20:42:10 +0000
Subject: UK To Ban Crypto In Devices, Email And More
In-Reply-To: <E1ZtgAi-0000Gy-3v@elasmtp-banded.atl.sa.earthlink.net>
References: <CAD2Ti29w4u9RMOt_gRvWe-vYo_So4R4XyfOYJcqEe_XzPGAL4A@mail.gmail.com>
 <E1ZtgAi-0000Gy-3v@elasmtp-banded.atl.sa.earthlink.net>
Message-ID: <56391C22.7010101@openmailbox.org>

Well, this will tackle the problem of the law abiding sheeple using
crypto, I wonder what measures they have in store for those who truly
wish to protect their privacy using decentralised tools?


On 03/11/15 18:20, John Young wrote:
> Excellent development if the bill is enacted. Should shatter the
> complacency
> of crypto advocates and foster other means and methods now getting
> short shrift due to the faith in crypto hyping and marketing -- and tons of
> excuses why crypto has not been as effective as foreordained, blame
> users, blame implementation, blame standards committees, blame spies,
> blame legislators, blame certificate authorities, blame hardware, blame
> insiders and outsiders, blame amateurs, blame backdoors, blame
> venal marketers who sold out to authorities, blame duat hatters working
> both sides of the porous divide, blame open and closed source, the
> pile of excuses grows exponentially as money is heaped onto the
> fire for burning through faster and faster. NSA has at least 191 colleges
> on the take for information assurance studies, with more joining daily
> to get while the getting is good, sending graduates to corporations,
> institutes, NGOs, hack world, leak world, defy authority world as
> evidenced here in this sacred site of tipped gravestones to cipher
> heroics.
> 
> 
> At 12:27 PM 11/3/2015, you wrote:
>> http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/terrorism-in-the-uk/11970391/Internet-firms-to-be-banned-from-offering-out-of-reach-communications-under-new-laws.html
>>
>>
>> Internet firms to be banned from offering unbreakable encryption under
>> new laws
>>
>> 3:16PM GMT 02 Nov 2015
>>
>> Internet and social media companies will be banned from putting
>> customer communications beyond their own reach under new laws to be
>> unveiled on Wednesday.
>> Companies such as Apple, Google and others will no longer be able to
>> offer encryption so advanced that even they cannot decipher it when
>> asked to, the Daily Telegraph can disclose.
>> Measures in the Investigatory Powers Bill will place in law a
>> requirement on tech firms and service providers to be able to provide
>> unencrypted communications to the police or spy agencies if requested
>> through a warrant.
> 
> 

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From jdb10987 at yahoo.com  Tue Nov  3 14:06:44 2015
From: jdb10987 at yahoo.com (jim bell)
Date: Tue, 3 Nov 2015 22:06:44 +0000 (UTC)
Subject: Value of Earth Human Life:  Will Microsoft Interfere with
 Ethereum?
In-Reply-To: <2016477829.396270.1446369912828.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com>
References: <2016477829.396270.1446369912828.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <909716231.1762380.1446588404192.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com>

Excuse me for top-posting, but it is my message I'm doing it to, here.  I wanted to add an additional comment.  I take back nothing I said about the Supreme Court case Brandenburg v. Ohio (1969), the case that ruled that it was protected-speech to advocate criminal, even violent activity, except in case of imminent action.  (Say, in a riot.)However, I should point out that legal decisions do occasionally tend to go in and out of favor, particularly when there has been major changes in the makeup of the Supreme Court.  All the positions of the Supreme Court have been replaced, at least once, since the Brandenburg decision was issued.  And some twice.  http://www.supremecourt.gov/about/members.aspx
If I still had easy access to the process of "Shepardization" of legal decisions  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shepard%27s_Citations  , I could look to see various citations of the Brandenburg case in subsequent Supreme Court cases, to see if it has been limited or modified in any way.  Right now I am unaware of any such changes, but it would be wise to do that Shepardization if you can do so.
Even so, I can agree that given the rather volatile times in which we live, a little caution is still in order.  Perhaps we should call them "Well-funded anonymous unlimited prediction markets."   Well-funded?  Essentially unlimited in amount that can be donated to the prediction fund, and are available to potential predictors.  Anonymous?  Ideally, so that ordinary people could use them without fear that the NSA or GCHQ be able to identify either the donors or the winner of the prediction contest.  Unlimited?  So that there are no relevant restriction placed on these markets:  either externally or internally.  If an individual or individuals want to place a prediction on the death of even the most well-known or politically-correct person, they should be able to do so in unlimited amounts without fear that a government or governments can effectively act to stop that.   And this should be true, even if the operation of individual predictions may seem to be accelerated by external events.
Most importantly, the organization or organizations that run these prediction markets should not be able to reject any proposed prediction market; they should be initiated by individuals outside the organization, and cannot be stopped by the organization itself.
Recently, there was a news item about Microsoft getting involved in Ethereum.  http://techcrunch.com/2015/10/28/microsoft-partners-with-consensys-to-use-ethereum-to-provide-blockchain-as-a-service/    Whatever its role today, I fear that Microsoft would find it more useful to impede the development of  "well-funded anonymous unlimited prediction markets".  In effect, Microsoft might be buying contol of Ethereum, and then using that influence against the development of this vital technology.  
              Jim Bell
      From: jim bell <jdb10987 at yahoo.com>


  From: grarpamp <grarpamp at gmail.com>

On Sun, Nov 1, 2015 at 3:26 AM, coderman <coderman at gmail.com> wrote:
>> you might simplify further, and say that ideally this reduces to
>> transaction costs alone, as lower bound.

>Some contractors might work for free, they might even
>pay to be fed juicy marks... establishing a rep, grandstanding,
>love of the hobby, whatever.
While the first few collected rewards would probably be in the tens of thousands of dollars range, after a few hundred are collected I think the price could easily drop to the low thousands.  One reason is that once it is clear that government has no effective defense, it will also be clear that soon enough, the government(s) will surely fall.  The main reason a given "special bettor" might hesitate to act is the possibility that he will be stuck in prison, if identified and caught.   But the entire process could be over in just a few months, with the government(s) yelling, "We surrender!".  One condition for that surrender will certainly be the release of all the hostages.  

Another tactic which could be used to strengthen the resolve of potential AP winners is to arrange the bounty system so a portion of all bets also will be used to target anybody who is part of the prosecution of any caught persons, or for that matter anyone who kills or even arrests them:  The judges, prosecutors, and other court staff, as well as hostile witnesses.  Even unsuccessful defense attorneys:  The possible threat of death would provide an automatic appeal issue.  What about a standing publicly-offered reward for $10,000 for any juror who votes to acquit, if that vote doesn't result in a subsequent prosecution.  (And it can't, if the vote is unanimous for acquittal.)  Anyone who holds out for a conviction wouldn't get any money.
 As was stated in the movie Dr. Strangelove,  "Deterrence is the art of producing in the mind of the enemy the FEAR to attack".  If the only tool they have is to prosecute people, make them FEAR to do so and soon enough, they won't dare.  
What is the economics of all this?  Consider that in 2014 a record 3 trillion dollars in taxes was collected by the Federal government.  If those who paid those taxes were willing to donate 1% of that value once, to have it stopped, forever, that would amount to $30 billion.  If the average amount that had to be paid for a single death was $50,000, that would amount to 600,000 deaths.  Does anybody seriously believe that the USG (or any other government, for that matter) would even try to survive such a blow?  Clearly not:  They would resign.
            Jim Bell

Note to the ones monitoring:  1969 Supreme Court decision Brandenberg v. Ohio   https://www.law.cornell.edu/supremecourt/text/395/444  guarantees as 'protected speech' under the First Amendment even encouragement to others to commit crimes, as long as a riot-type situation is not going on.  There is no riot here, and I haven't encouraged anybody to commit any crime. There is no imminent lawless action anticipated.
"These are not the Cypherpunks we're looking for.  You can go about your business.  Move along"

[Quote from Brandenburg:]
The Ohio Criminal Syndicalism Statute was enacted in 1919. From 1917 to 1920, identical or quite similar laws were adopted by 20 States and two territories. E. Dowell, A History of Criminal Syndicalism Legislation in the United States 21 (1939). In 1927, this Court sustained the constitutionality of California's Criminal Syndicalism Act, Cal.Penal Code §§ 11400-11402, the text of which is quite similar to that of the laws of Ohio. Whitney v. California, 274 U.S. 357 (1927). The Court upheld the statute on the ground that, without more, "advocating" violent means to effect political and economic change involves such danger to the security of the State that the State may outlaw it. Cf. Fiske v. Kansas, 274 U.S. 380 (1927). But Whitney has been thoroughly discredited by later decisions. See Dennis v. United States, 341 U.S. 494, at 507 (1951). These later decisions have fashioned the principle that the constitutional guarantees of free speech and free press do not permit a State to forbid or proscribe advocacy of the use of force or of law violation except where such advocacy is directed to inciting or producing imminent lawless action and is likely to incite or produce such action. [n2] As we [p448] said in Noto v. United States, 367 U.S. 290, 297-298 (1961),the mere abstract teaching . . . of the moral propriety or even moral necessity for a resort to force and violence is not the same as preparing a group for violent action and steeling it to such action.See also Herndon v. Lowry, 301 U.S. 242, 259-261 (1937); Bond v. Floyd, 385 U.S. 116, 134 (1966). A statute which fails to draw this distinction impermissibly intrudes upon the freedoms guaranteed by the First and Fourteenth Amendments. It sweeps within its condemnation speech which our Constitution has immunized from governmental control. Cf. Yates v. United States, 354 U.S. 298 (1957); De Jonge v. Oregon, 299 U.S. 353 (1937); Stromberg v. California, 283 U.S. 359 (1931). See also United States v. Robel, 389 U.S. 258 (1967);Keyishian v. Board of Regents, 385 U.S. 589 (1967); Elfbrandt v. Russell, 384 U.S. 11 (1966); Aptheker v. Secretary of State, 378 U.S. 500(1964); Baggett v. Bullitt, 377 U.S. 360 (1964).Measured by this test, Ohio's Criminal Syndicalism Act cannot be sustained. The Act punishes persons who "advocate or teach the duty, necessity, or propriety" of violence "as a means of accomplishing industrial or political reform"; or who publish or circulate or display any book or paper containing such advocacy; or who "justify" the commission of violent acts "with intent to exemplify, spread or advocate the propriety of the doctrines of criminal syndicalism"; or who "voluntarily assemble" with a group formed "to teach or advocate the doctrines of criminal syndicalism." Neither the indictment nor the trial judge's instructions to the jury in any way refined the statute's bald definition of the crime[p449] in terms of mere advocacy not distinguished from incitement to imminent lawless action. [n3]Accordingly, we are here confronted with a statute which, by its own words and as applied, purports to punish mere advocacy and to forbid, on pain of criminal punishment, assembly with others merely to advocate the described type of action. [n4] Such a statute falls within the condemnation of the First and Fourteenth Amendments. The contrary teaching of Whitney v. California, supra, cannot be supported, and that decision is therefore overruled.Reversed.




   

  
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From zen at freedbms.net  Tue Nov  3 14:58:09 2015
From: zen at freedbms.net (Zenaan Harkness)
Date: Tue, 3 Nov 2015 22:58:09 +0000
Subject: Value of Earth Human Life: Will Microsoft Interfere with Ethereum?
In-Reply-To: <909716231.1762380.1446588404192.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com>
References: <2016477829.396270.1446369912828.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com>
 <909716231.1762380.1446588404192.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <CAOsGNSQ1Wp3uknAoncWnL-EQhu0gD_stKR3puCHbtJ8DBB14yw@mail.gmail.com>

On 11/3/15, jim bell <jdb10987 at yahoo.com> wrote:
> a little caution is still in order.  Perhaps we should call them
> "Well-funded anonymous unlimited prediction markets."

WUMPA markets. At least it's pronounceable.
Well-funded Unlimited Markets for Prediction Anonymously




From grarpamp at gmail.com  Tue Nov  3 21:02:14 2015
From: grarpamp at gmail.com (grarpamp)
Date: Wed, 4 Nov 2015 00:02:14 -0500
Subject: UK To Ban Crypto In Devices, Email And More
In-Reply-To: <56391C22.7010101@openmailbox.org>
References: <CAD2Ti29w4u9RMOt_gRvWe-vYo_So4R4XyfOYJcqEe_XzPGAL4A@mail.gmail.com>
 <E1ZtgAi-0000Gy-3v@elasmtp-banded.atl.sa.earthlink.net>
 <56391C22.7010101@openmailbox.org>
Message-ID: <CAD2Ti294xEghJD4s-Hfb0K6db9FFZPqWLLTLbUN1eB2L+o-BgQ@mail.gmail.com>

On Tue, Nov 3, 2015 at 3:42 PM, oshwm <oshwm at openmailbox.org> wrote:
> Well, this will tackle the problem of the law abiding sheeple using
> crypto, I wonder what measures they have in store for those who truly
> wish to protect their privacy using decentralised tools?

Honestly, the way people apparently like to bend over and
get fucked up their ass (for both their own pleasure and that
of their future descendants), they'll just disconnect the internet
of anyone using crypto, unless it's to be a nice little consumer
visiting Amazon, a taxpayer at the collector, and let's not forget
the druggist, TV and beer... all handily balkanized just for you.

If you can't reach the sheeple, you're as fucked as they are.




From grarpamp at gmail.com  Tue Nov  3 21:11:47 2015
From: grarpamp at gmail.com (grarpamp)
Date: Wed, 4 Nov 2015 00:11:47 -0500
Subject: [Cryptography] Happy Birthday, No Such Agency!
In-Reply-To: <alpine.BSF.2.11.1511040903390.95046@aneurin.horsfall.org>
References: <alpine.BSF.2.11.1511040903390.95046@aneurin.horsfall.org>
Message-ID: <CAD2Ti2-m7ZWmFW618EiwNke=9kD_80tFkVGWkSYegcrsTf+rfQ@mail.gmail.com>

On Tue, Nov 3, 2015 at 5:06 PM, Dave Horsfall <dave at horsfall.org> wrote:
> Signed into existence by Presidential Decree in 1952 (same year I was
> born!), even the name of the NSA for a secret for years.

Who gives a fuck? If you can't resolve your issues and cooperate
globally openly without resorting to dirty tricks, opression, subjugation,
murder and more, what the fuck does that say about you?
It's the 21st century, we're supposed to be better than that.




From jdb10987 at yahoo.com  Tue Nov  3 16:36:46 2015
From: jdb10987 at yahoo.com (jim bell)
Date: Wed, 4 Nov 2015 00:36:46 +0000 (UTC)
Subject: Value of Earth Human Life: Will Microsoft Interfere with Ethereum?
In-Reply-To: <CAOsGNSQ1Wp3uknAoncWnL-EQhu0gD_stKR3puCHbtJ8DBB14yw@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAOsGNSQ1Wp3uknAoncWnL-EQhu0gD_stKR3puCHbtJ8DBB14yw@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <447832303.1816043.1446597406444.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com>

  From: Zenaan Harkness <zen at freedbms.netOn 11/3/15, jim bell <jdb10987 at yahoo.com> wrote:


>> a little caution is still in order.  Perhaps we should call them
>> "Well-funded anonymous unlimited prediction markets."
>WUMPA markets. At least it's pronounceable.
>Well-funded Unlimited Markets for Prediction Anonymously
Excellent!              Jim Bell


  
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From grarpamp at gmail.com  Tue Nov  3 21:42:02 2015
From: grarpamp at gmail.com (grarpamp)
Date: Wed, 4 Nov 2015 00:42:02 -0500
Subject: Value of Earth Human Life: Will Microsoft Interfere with Ethereum?
In-Reply-To: <909716231.1762380.1446588404192.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com>
References: <2016477829.396270.1446369912828.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com>
 <909716231.1762380.1446588404192.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <CAD2Ti280XtLrcFN9e4op1qDHnTkT2PerDDFyQmVNYUCaNXRB2A@mail.gmail.com>

On Tue, Nov 3, 2015 at 5:06 PM, jim bell <jdb10987 at yahoo.com> wrote:
> Excuse me for top-posting, but it is my message I'm doing it to, here.  I

An aside, you may want to consider setting you mailer to
send only "plain text" mail instead of "HTML" or "both".

> wanted to add an additional comment.  I take back nothing I said about the
> Supreme Court case Brandenburg v. Ohio (1969), the case that ruled that it
> was protected-speech to advocate criminal, even violent activity, except in
> case of imminent action.  (Say, in a riot.)
> However, I should point out that...

Comments in law are always well received as too many people
are unaware of law in general.

http://www.uscourts.gov/about-federal-courts/educational-resources/supreme-court-landmarks

> and are available to potential predictors.  Anonymous?  Ideally, so that

Interesting in that the level of anonymity desired by makers and
takers may shift as any particular campaign progresses. For
example, by those thinking they will win out at the end and be
viewed as heroes and leaders (all too human concepts) after the fray.
Why indeed in history... all successful revolutions have profitable
byproducts for their makers, and for the quashers of failed ones.

> markets".  In effect, Microsoft might be buying contol of Ethereum, and then
> using that influence against the development of this vital technology.

There is no obligation upon anyone to sell, and to those who
sellout against their first stated ethos, or were in it falsely from
the start, fuck them.




From coderman at gmail.com  Wed Nov  4 00:48:15 2015
From: coderman at gmail.com (coderman)
Date: Wed, 4 Nov 2015 00:48:15 -0800
Subject: Value of Earth Human Life: Will Microsoft Interfere with Ethereum?
In-Reply-To: <CAD2Ti280XtLrcFN9e4op1qDHnTkT2PerDDFyQmVNYUCaNXRB2A@mail.gmail.com>
References: <2016477829.396270.1446369912828.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com>
 <909716231.1762380.1446588404192.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com>
 <CAD2Ti280XtLrcFN9e4op1qDHnTkT2PerDDFyQmVNYUCaNXRB2A@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAJVRA1Swww9fjKqiPFUKyWnRbWHgJt1NtjjpbVyVjS0qW2k+5Q@mail.gmail.com>

On 11/3/15, grarpamp <grarpamp at gmail.com> wrote:
> ...
> Comments in law are always well received as too many people
> are unaware of law in general.
>
> http://www.uscourts.gov/about-federal-courts/educational-resources/supreme-court-landmarks
>
>> and are available to potential predictors.  Anonymous?  Ideally, so that
>
> Interesting in that the level of anonymity desired by makers and
> takers may shift as any particular campaign progresses. For
> example, by those thinking they will win out at the end and be
> viewed as heroes and leaders (all too human concepts) after the fray.
> Why indeed in history... all successful revolutions have profitable
> byproducts for their makers, and for the quashers of failed ones.


perhaps *@cpunks.org first against the wall, after all?

there is a book i bought as a teen that is no longer possible to print
and sell. that doesn't feel like progress...
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From coderman at gmail.com  Wed Nov  4 01:27:35 2015
From: coderman at gmail.com (coderman)
Date: Wed, 4 Nov 2015 01:27:35 -0800
Subject: Facebook censorship
In-Reply-To: <20151103164028.GA2617@sivokote.iziade.m$>
References: <CAOsGNSTjOUT-_qEV3EEYF-+0y3khwcc4xFyzBzGh17=Q7oyxPw@mail.gmail.com>
 <56380CC2.2070506@openmailbox.org>
 <20151103035136.50a9ff16@emailcontrol.org>
 <20151103164028.GA2617@sivokote.iziade.m$>
Message-ID: <CAJVRA1RV3hWQ829VaYQM4jqTs9xSxGspR13NHW3-BbkNr2D7yQ@mail.gmail.com>

On 11/3/15, Georgi Guninski <guninski at guninski.com> wrote:
> ... Extraterrestrial stuff maybe be possible though.


any extraterrestrial intelligence is going to get the fuck away from
us on Earth :)




From coderman at gmail.com  Wed Nov  4 01:57:23 2015
From: coderman at gmail.com (coderman)
Date: Wed, 4 Nov 2015 01:57:23 -0800
Subject: FOIPA adventures
In-Reply-To: <CAJVRA1TbbVJ-88nHq0GKMhS5Z3GQ+=jCqv2E49FS=4L2+xQeFg@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAJVRA1SaJpNaPQx=s_7VVM==ony2sH0aUG3w11cjNX6escSm8w@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAJVRA1TUfu40206TOzK2kBsgCvbgBYYXmyKZ3E5n4KQuoEtZyg@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAJVRA1QtgMky_hsDLsmFwiXcxE528bZaDOQsjTqqj4tR-dbGBQ@mail.gmail.com>
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 <CAJVRA1TU5Frg3WOJk+3ZFEH0QAFya5xZnwzCfCUE+hL1NhKUFg@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAJVRA1Q0SDo9Fj3KAU9vA3cxR2=7pwcdpO3Ex=yi6g2WtRAg6A@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAJVRA1Srrb08Z9XvG+rYq30p2E_MnhJA6ynOLpdT--6gCvwiyQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAJVRA1RXD2dr16TJZK-MPcJm7nR0Ov=Dp9i5Anf5hKNFs2hq7w@mail.gmail.com>
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 <CAJVRA1SyW_wOUcFUo6STbiePO8HmLV9LgF-PCgugvuPRD_tKWA@mail.gmail.com>
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 <CAJVRA1RbeuzfiVAOqaZ15p8kr67jxcBoNMOrJkt3K86_=FuVXw@mail.gmail.com>
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 <CAJVRA1RDN6HsLCbF_wsK+zARO9PaEn80R9FSGnWgGVF4XkbbpQ@mail.gmail.com>
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 <CAJVRA1SyX65OE9-7DQ1hP1fGWHxY8rvCqFXhKPu4Oy4o6wt0gg@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAJVRA1SgoLtLFS9AFf_d043AGDVbKp4djDtijDR+zfCRJ8twTA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAJVRA1SvN5ML7TQnOUqz78PhYv8aefz=k8-4fPOwv2uHUVF3_w@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAJVRA1Ry2EV7qaFHmZJ9cjm8-waCNBCzenO9BpqW+YKChEHX7w@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAJVRA1S5juVmB6Ouy0JWbdeJdj9yz0W6tKQDY2q_zi+AC461EA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAJVRA1SYO0ia4VGLwFwZFowkD75YR61MC1TNc1wzHbZtmhy1_w@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAJVRA1SqWMVy6m6KuiJWQQG_6XPWoB+86-p45PWKvfn8wg_jeA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAJVRA1RWaiCZtig6+Seyk-UN9M3h9+2iZ0Otnqb6n=AFcRAeRw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAJVRA1QzHeh=rs0hRf0sugLZdbXvAhK+2Yte5Tbt_Tnv5Tf8mg@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAJVRA1SdAW+36Z8yYTdSFTtz8S8U5aiELv5NiuXg5Rg-vaFYew@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAJVRA1Svk488ax6sd4oy52rfM_u_E1EuzhUAQt6cQ2Jy5yRx5g@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAJVRA1S4=X5P6hKnZu224GjseL5ws1vRm6Gk4gJ+DG06oLjaDA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAJVRA1RsgoKvADCcRz76vj1xjT+EQDB96tw7-sgg_pf+BGzA=A@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAJVRA1TOMYnBh0-B=uh6n2HsOsFdY+SKVG-=XqKi6WPNro++PA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAJVRA1Qao1qE2kBSbb_V5NPQ7PF--VFnYQpc=08wY2_ZURz4hg@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAJVRA1S45TEydVoKDxW9SfC0DKcSdxB_HfjrvcZQjU5uymfFOQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAD2Ti29j9qCnTCBEpaTj9B2NdWpLQoAiT02QzbitiART9tFg6A@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAJVRA1SAOUWi485z=_VRnhLu=EL1c8rVQOvdFz09-P4TjbLHww@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAJVRA1T0E3Lny4YPOjvvCtpSZOmx5dim+nw7e_Zzz-PYXNUAjg@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAJVRA1TtoL+tz0XYxNPSV7oE7HBVWORZ65Og6hrREQzreN6ozw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAJVRA1TbbVJ-88nHq0GKMhS5Z3GQ+=jCqv2E49FS=4L2+xQeFg@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAJVRA1QWAfeigxMOurYMUUQ4hehXOv=HVtr1QDBPoKKo_U5pWA@mail.gmail.com>

DoD OIG tried to refuse my request though a creative interpretation.

i have appealed:

'''
I am fascinated and impressed by your interpretation of my request,
such that "Your request does not seek access to records, but FOIA
reading rooms.". Please let me be clear. I am not seeking access to
FOIA reading rooms. I am not seeking activity records regarding FOIA
reading rooms.

In fact, the only information I am requesting is FOIA reading room
metadata - E.g. their number, and their location.

I hereby appeal this refusal to grant my request. Thank you!
'''
 - https://www.muckrock.com/foi/united-states-of-america-10/freelyreadingrainbowed-21891/




From rysiek at hackerspace.pl  Tue Nov  3 19:36:46 2015
From: rysiek at hackerspace.pl (rysiek)
Date: Wed, 04 Nov 2015 04:36:46 +0100
Subject: UK To Ban Crypto In Devices, Email And More
In-Reply-To: <56391C22.7010101@openmailbox.org>
References: <CAD2Ti29w4u9RMOt_gRvWe-vYo_So4R4XyfOYJcqEe_XzPGAL4A@mail.gmail.com>
 <E1ZtgAi-0000Gy-3v@elasmtp-banded.atl.sa.earthlink.net>
 <56391C22.7010101@openmailbox.org>
Message-ID: <1904004.F26FZBauzO@lapuntu>

Dnia wtorek, 3 listopada 2015 20:42:10 oshwm pisze:
> Well, this will tackle the problem of the law abiding sheeple using
> crypto, I wonder what measures they have in store for those who truly
> wish to protect their privacy using decentralised tools?

The ban on crypto is not about banning crypto:
http://rys.io/en/149

-- 
Pozdrawiam,
Michał "rysiek" Woźniak

Zmieniam klucz GPG :: http://rys.io/pl/147
GPG Key Transition :: http://rys.io/en/147
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From coderman at gmail.com  Wed Nov  4 04:48:04 2015
From: coderman at gmail.com (coderman)
Date: Wed, 4 Nov 2015 04:48:04 -0800
Subject: The BlackList
In-Reply-To: <502729548.1059884.1446499700440.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com>
References: <CAJVRA1RNQcEoROR17KpRS=MG5pWqibmVd_AYHakV-Ue5y8JXyQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <502729548.1059884.1446499700440.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <CAJVRA1Qt_n7Am_OQ7oN9oCNr-T=J3p3A8EOhMz7AYM=zA1fc7w@mail.gmail.com>

On 11/2/15, jim bell <jdb10987 at yahoo.com> wrote:
> About the time you sent this message, you did something to screw up my Yahoo
> email account.  I started getting bounces, and eventually I was entirely
> prevented from sending emails.  Please explain what you did.        Jim
> Bell
>       From: coderman <coderman at gmail.com>
>  To: jim bell <jdb10987 at yahoo.com>
> Cc: Cari Machet <carimachet at gmail.com>; cpunks <cypherpunks at cpunks.org>
>  Sent: Saturday, October 31, 2015 4:44 PM
>  Subject: Re: The BlackList...


Jim, i am often a well selected individual, as you must be at times, too.

you should assume any centralized service will become unusable at any
time. Google, Apple, Microsoft, Amazon - they are all real-time
malware conduits, when they're not simply denying service selectively,
or en masse.

the only thing i have seen survive the highest level of scrutiny are
bespoke systems communicating only over hidden services with
end-to-end crypto. (and by survive - i mean not immediately pwned -
long term resistance is only through constant evolutionary and radical
improvement based on interactions with attackers...)


what a world we've built!


best regards,




From coderman at gmail.com  Wed Nov  4 06:03:00 2015
From: coderman at gmail.com (coderman)
Date: Wed, 4 Nov 2015 06:03:00 -0800
Subject: Zerocoin Startup Revives the Dream of Truly Anonymous Money
Message-ID: <CAJVRA1QQqJCyG-Hnivf3cZYWMarpuj-mWCe+v0Nv06ZCLVRAnQ@mail.gmail.com>

Zooko++

http://www.wired.com/2015/11/zerocoin-startup-revives-the-dream-of-truly-anonymous-money/

     Andy Greenberg	Date of Publication: 11.04.15.

Zerocoin Startup Revives the Dream of Truly Anonymous Money

Bitcoin, despite its reputation as anonymous internet cash, was never
designed for perfectly private payments. For the promise of fully
untraceable money, cryptocurrency fans have been waiting for
Zerocoin—a technology designed to have default uncrackable anonymity.
After years of development, that incognito cryptocash is finally
showing signs of a life, now in the form of a stealthy startup.

Late last week, a company calling itself the Zerocoin Electric Coin
Company published a post on Angel List, a website startups use to
raise funds from private investors. Zerocoin’s new CEO and co-founder,
cryptographer Zooko Wilcox-Hearn, confirms in an email to WIRED that
the company will put into practice the Zerocoin (alternatively known
as Zerocash) design initially created by a team of encryption
researchers at Johns Hopkins in 2013, with the goal of creating a
bitcoin-like currency with the greatest privacy and anonymity
protections that modern mathematics can offer.

“Bitcoin is HTTP for money. We are HTTPS,” reads Zerocoin’s Angel List
description, an analogy to the layer of privacy enabled on encrypted
web pages versus the surveillance perils of visiting an unencrypted
site.

In fact, Zerocoin’s privacy advantages over bitcoin could be even more
substantial than that HTTPS comparison implies: Bitcoin transactions
are published on the blockchain, the public record of all bitcoin
payments that serves as the backbone of the bitcoin economy. Any
slip-up that identifies a user’s bitcoin addresses also makes it
possible for anyone to trace all of his or her payments from and to
those addresses. Zerocoin’s blockchain, on the other hand, uses a
cryptographic trick known as a “zero-knowledge proof” to guarantee
that transactions in the Zerocoin economy aren’t fraudulent or forged.
But that zero-knowledge feature means that in contrast to bitcoin,
Zerocoin’s blockchain doesn’t reveal anything about the payment’s
origin, destination, or even the transaction’s amount. (Read the full
paper Zerocoin’s creators presented at the 2014 IEEE Spectrum security
and privacy conference here.)

In other words, Zerocoin will let users spend internet cash with
theoretically perfect anonymity. But Zerocoin’s new Angel’s List page
also notes that if necessary, the same zero-knowledge proof trick can
also allow a zerocoin user to forego that privacy and choose to reveal
proof that any individual transaction was his or hers—say, as a
receipt for some zerocoin purchase. “We are adding *selective
disclosure* to Bitcoin and Blockchain technologies,” the Angel’s List
page reads. “Transaction metadata in the Blockchain is confidential by
default but can be disclosed to specific parties. This allows the best
of both worlds: both strong privacy and transparency on the
Blockchain.”

Just how Zerocoin will make money as a startup, however, is far from
clear. For now, Wilcox-Hearn declined to answer any of WIRED’s
questions about how the company will function, when it will officially
launch, or how it plans to put its new cryptocurrency into
circulation.

Like any bitcoin alternative, Zerocoin will no doubt face stiff
competition from bitcoin itself, which already has buy-in from
millions of users and an exchange rate that’s appreciated sharply in
just the last week. Even so, a roster of influential angel investors
have already invested $715,000 in Zerocoin, according to Wilcox-Hearn.
Two early backers listed on the Angel’s List posting are Naval
Ravikant, an investor in Twitter and Uber, and Barry Silbert, the
founder of startup equity trading platform SecondMarket. Another is
Roger Ver, a staunchly libertarian bitcoin mogul who’s made
investments in startups like Blockchain.info and Bitpay, and who used
his substantial crypto-fortune to bankroll much of the criminal
defense of now-convicted Silk Road creator Ross Ulbricht.

Zerocoin also cites an impressive collection of “advisors” on its
Angel’s List page. In addition to the academic team that designed
Zerocoin, led by Johns Hopkins computer science professor Matthew
Green, those advisors also include Vitalik Buterin, the founder of
buzzy cryptocurrency startup Ethereum, and Gavin Andresen, one of the
first bitcoin coders and the chief scientist of the Bitcoin
Foundation. The company’s CEO, Zooko Wilcox-Hearn, has crypto cred of
his own: He’s the creator of the Tahoe Least Authority File Store, or
Tahoe LAFS, a decentralized, encrypted file storage system.

Even with those supporters, Zerocoin is sure to face criticism and
even legal trouble because of the very privacy properties that make it
unique: A cryptographically untraceable, anonymous currency could
offer massive potential for money laundering and black market sales.
The Silk Road’s federal prosecutors, after all, proved how valuable a
tougher-to-track cryptocurrency would be to criminals, when they
traced $13.4 million worth of bitcoin from the drug-selling site to
its creator Ross Ulbricht’s laptop.

Zerocoin’s creators attempted to answer that concern in their online
FAQ, pointing out that criminals can already make anonymous
transactions with cash, or even with bitcoin if they’re careful to use
“mixing” services like Dark Wallet or Bitcoin Fog that are designed to
anonymize transactions. “The introduction of yet another method to
anonymously move money is of little consequence,” they write. But cash
can’t be spent online, and mixing services only make tracing payments
more difficult—they don’t render it impossible, as Zerocoin’s
zero-knowledge proofs are designed to do.

More convincingly, the Zerocoin authors also argue the opposite point:
that the alternative to their cryptocurrency is to rely on bitcoin,
whose blockchain can create real problems for any user seeking to keep
his or her transactions private. “Would you want to publish your bank
statement for everyone to see? Of course not: your bank statement can
reveal…intimate details about your life,” they write. “For example,
your payments to a psychiatrist could reveal that you have a mental
health issue.”

Zerocoin’s coming launch as a startup, by contrast, revives the
cryptocurrency community’s dream of truly anonymous money—with all the
promises and perils that come with it. Stay tuned.




From coderman at gmail.com  Wed Nov  4 07:22:42 2015
From: coderman at gmail.com (coderman)
Date: Wed, 4 Nov 2015 07:22:42 -0800
Subject: FOIPA adventures
In-Reply-To: <CAJVRA1TbbVJ-88nHq0GKMhS5Z3GQ+=jCqv2E49FS=4L2+xQeFg@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAJVRA1SaJpNaPQx=s_7VVM==ony2sH0aUG3w11cjNX6escSm8w@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAJVRA1TUfu40206TOzK2kBsgCvbgBYYXmyKZ3E5n4KQuoEtZyg@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAJVRA1QtgMky_hsDLsmFwiXcxE528bZaDOQsjTqqj4tR-dbGBQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAJVRA1RwoyoRs-REWnhGd8cHZM6EJvcziTUDXbU5A6TMigOT6A@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAJVRA1Rwaq1fvE8p-s1JwOANvMc7X2E75bx5eNd4KGJapt6Nuw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAJVRA1TU5Frg3WOJk+3ZFEH0QAFya5xZnwzCfCUE+hL1NhKUFg@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAJVRA1Q0SDo9Fj3KAU9vA3cxR2=7pwcdpO3Ex=yi6g2WtRAg6A@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAJVRA1Srrb08Z9XvG+rYq30p2E_MnhJA6ynOLpdT--6gCvwiyQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAJVRA1RXD2dr16TJZK-MPcJm7nR0Ov=Dp9i5Anf5hKNFs2hq7w@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAJVRA1S97DSPk0NBjgon1LS4HHuGtq_03dqFppUnWq+t61a41A@mail.gmail.com>
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 <CAJVRA1TvZxj_qz6_xK8h13LOD-5mE6iNvT9dnThf4ue0_=kY3Q@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAJVRA1RbeuzfiVAOqaZ15p8kr67jxcBoNMOrJkt3K86_=FuVXw@mail.gmail.com>
 <000701d0bcb7$94118e80$bc34ab80$@co.uk>
 <CAJVRA1SE1O-PqmkV8vX=q5j_xs-YFOpH=OLxSvwaT8BBvadQmA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAJVRA1TwM3Re8Tz6NPxp_CeY5C4K3QN+Ceo5VbW3JKMbBABv9g@mail.gmail.com>
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 <CAJVRA1SvN5ML7TQnOUqz78PhYv8aefz=k8-4fPOwv2uHUVF3_w@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAJVRA1Ry2EV7qaFHmZJ9cjm8-waCNBCzenO9BpqW+YKChEHX7w@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAJVRA1S5juVmB6Ouy0JWbdeJdj9yz0W6tKQDY2q_zi+AC461EA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAJVRA1SYO0ia4VGLwFwZFowkD75YR61MC1TNc1wzHbZtmhy1_w@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAJVRA1SqWMVy6m6KuiJWQQG_6XPWoB+86-p45PWKvfn8wg_jeA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAJVRA1RWaiCZtig6+Seyk-UN9M3h9+2iZ0Otnqb6n=AFcRAeRw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAJVRA1QzHeh=rs0hRf0sugLZdbXvAhK+2Yte5Tbt_Tnv5Tf8mg@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAJVRA1SdAW+36Z8yYTdSFTtz8S8U5aiELv5NiuXg5Rg-vaFYew@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAJVRA1Svk488ax6sd4oy52rfM_u_E1EuzhUAQt6cQ2Jy5yRx5g@mail.gmail.com>
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 <CAD2Ti29j9qCnTCBEpaTj9B2NdWpLQoAiT02QzbitiART9tFg6A@mail.gmail.com>
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 <CAJVRA1TbbVJ-88nHq0GKMhS5Z3GQ+=jCqv2E49FS=4L2+xQeFg@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAJVRA1RW3ULQ6QbhOw=JQ-0EV958aGkqkVCxvJ=J4m6_fckCow@mail.gmail.com>

new request regarding declassified information:
'''
A list of sites, repositories, indexes, or other responsive materials
regarding linkage and effective utilization of existing agency
databases of records that have been declassified and publicly
released, as required to be maintained by the Director of the
Information Security Oversight Office. Please also provide a list of
agency heads providing this information to or on behalf of the
Director of the Information Security Oversight Office as required by
Executive Order 13292. Thank you!
'''
 - https://www.muckrock.com/foi/united-states-of-america-10/naradumps-22249/




From coderman at gmail.com  Wed Nov  4 11:07:23 2015
From: coderman at gmail.com (coderman)
Date: Wed, 4 Nov 2015 11:07:23 -0800
Subject: Zerocoin Startup Revives the Dream of Truly Anonymous Money
In-Reply-To: <1193160704.2383148.1446660654887.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com>
References: <CAJVRA1QQqJCyG-Hnivf3cZYWMarpuj-mWCe+v0Nv06ZCLVRAnQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <1193160704.2383148.1446660654887.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <CAJVRA1Q2wtb00_UUys=b5uSu3w+qJSiBFhh3t4fadkTu4axtqw@mail.gmail.com>

On 11/4/15, jim bell <jdb10987 at yahoo.com> wrote:
> ...
>>Zerocoin’s coming launch as a startup, by contrast, revives the
>>cryptocurrency community’s dream of truly anonymous money—with all the
>>promises and perils that come with it. Stay tuned.
>
> Tor + Ethereum + Augur + Zerocoin = ????????
> The tools are coming together nicely.

:)


> Although, I think that Tor could use a little improvement.  Its three-hop
> method is limited and old.

this is actually the subject of ongoing, varied research in terms of
better protections (like Guard selection improvements) to wild
architectures in a datagram world using user space stacks and
optimized dependent link padding across locally classed traffic.

https://blog.torproject.org/category/tags/research
 and
http://freehaven.net/anonbib/
 span the gamut.


> Further, there should be an automatic system to
> generatedecoy messages at each stage in the transfer, built into the Tor
> protocol itself.(as well as the generation of spontaneous fake messages when
> network traffic is low.

this is where optimized dependent link padding coupled to locally
classified traffic (signalling|control, interactive, streamingmedia,
bulk transfer, etc.) shows promise.

benefits of padding with a fraction of the bandwidth...


> Routers should be equipped with Tor relay
> capability built-in.

the Tor Router idea is a sore spot :(
 maybe one day?




From grarpamp at gmail.com  Wed Nov  4 09:28:58 2015
From: grarpamp at gmail.com (grarpamp)
Date: Wed, 4 Nov 2015 12:28:58 -0500
Subject: =?UTF-8?Q?Tor_cameo_in_the_comic_=E2=80=9CLes_Vieux_Fourneaux=E2=80=9D?=
Message-ID: <CAD2Ti29miAsaazYDP2KfbYOxNTwm+MD8QzpANaT+P=Ycyi0Dnw@mail.gmail.com>

---------- Forwarded message ----------
From: Lunar <lunar at torproject.org>
Date: Wed, Nov 4, 2015 at 5:46 AM

Hi!

“Les Vieux Fourneaux” [1] is a comic in French published last year by
Wilfrid Lupano and Paul Cauuet. Amongst other characters, it features a
group of anarchist elders called “Ni Yeux Ni Maîtres” [2]. In the story
you see them fighting gentrification by filling up a trendy lounge bar
until it goes out of business.

One of the elder is getting hacking lessons from “Arno Nimousse”. The
latter has an onion sticker on his laptop.

Some images:

https://people.torproject.org/~lunar/volatile/2015-11-04-WplBy28xyVg/Les_Vieux_Fourneaux_1.jpg
https://people.torproject.org/~lunar/volatile/2015-11-04-WplBy28xyVg/Les_Vieux_Fourneaux_2.jpg
https://people.torproject.org/~lunar/volatile/2015-11-04-WplBy28xyVg/Les_Vieux_Fourneaux_3.jpg

 [1]: https://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Les_Vieux_Fourneaux
 [2]: Meaning “No Eyes No Masters”, but it sounds more funny in French.

--
tor-talk mailing list - tor-talk at lists.torproject.org
To unsubscribe or change other settings go to
https://lists.torproject.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/tor-talk




From Rayzer at riseup.net  Wed Nov  4 15:48:40 2015
From: Rayzer at riseup.net (Razer)
Date: Wed, 4 Nov 2015 15:48:40 -0800
Subject: UK To Ban Crypto In Devices, Email And More
In-Reply-To: <CAD2Ti29w4u9RMOt_gRvWe-vYo_So4R4XyfOYJcqEe_XzPGAL4A@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAD2Ti29w4u9RMOt_gRvWe-vYo_So4R4XyfOYJcqEe_XzPGAL4A@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <563A9958.6030305@riseup.net>



On 11/03/2015 09:27 AM, grarpamp wrote:
> http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/terrorism-in-the-uk/11970391/Internet-firms-to-be-banned-from-offering-out-of-reach-communications-under-new-laws.html
>
> Internet firms to be banned from offering unbreakable encryption under new laws
>
> 3:16PM GMT 02 Nov 2015
>
> Internet and social media companies will be banned from putting
> customer communications beyond their own reach under new laws to be
> unveiled on Wednesday.
> Companies such as Apple, Google and others will no longer be able to
> offer encryption so advanced that even they cannot decipher it when
> asked to, the Daily Telegraph can disclose.
> Measures in the Investigatory Powers Bill will place in law a
> requirement on tech firms and service providers to be able to provide
> unencrypted communications to the police or spy agencies if requested
> through a warrant.
>

Protonmail.ch has been under ongoing dDos attacks since the 3rd. They
are one of the email providers using proprietary 'unbreakable' (in this
case CERN & MIT developed) encryption.

https://twitter.com/ProtonMail

RR

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From juan.g71 at gmail.com  Wed Nov  4 11:37:52 2015
From: juan.g71 at gmail.com (Juan)
Date: Wed, 4 Nov 2015 16:37:52 -0300
Subject: Zerocoin Startup Revives the Dream of Truly Anonymous Money
In-Reply-To: <1193160704.2383148.1446660654887.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com>
References: <CAJVRA1QQqJCyG-Hnivf3cZYWMarpuj-mWCe+v0Nv06ZCLVRAnQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <1193160704.2383148.1446660654887.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <563a5cf6.a7688c0a.b05a5.4bf3@mx.google.com>

On Wed, 4 Nov 2015 18:10:54 +0000 (UTC)
jim bell <jdb10987 at yahoo.com> wrote:

>  Routers should be equipped with Tor relay capability built-in. Jim


	Sure. The pentagon and cisco could give those away for free.




> Bell
> 
>   





From jdb10987 at yahoo.com  Wed Nov  4 10:10:54 2015
From: jdb10987 at yahoo.com (jim bell)
Date: Wed, 4 Nov 2015 18:10:54 +0000 (UTC)
Subject: Zerocoin Startup Revives the Dream of Truly Anonymous Money
In-Reply-To: <CAJVRA1QQqJCyG-Hnivf3cZYWMarpuj-mWCe+v0Nv06ZCLVRAnQ@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAJVRA1QQqJCyG-Hnivf3cZYWMarpuj-mWCe+v0Nv06ZCLVRAnQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <1193160704.2383148.1446660654887.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com>

  From: coderman <coderman at gmail.com>
>Zooko++

>http://www.wired.com/2015/11/zerocoin-startup-revives-the-dream-of-truly-anonymous-money/

>   Andy Greenberg    Date of Publication: 11.04.15.

>Zerocoin Startup Revives the Dream of Truly Anonymous Money
>Bitcoin, despite its reputation as anonymous internet cash, was never
>designed for perfectly private payments. For the promise of fully
>untraceable money, cryptocurrency fans have been waiting for
>Zerocoin—a technology designed to have default uncrackable anonymity.
>After years of development, that incognito cryptocash is finally
>showing signs of a life, now in the form of a stealthy startup.

<snip>

>Zerocoin’s coming launch as a startup, by contrast, revives the
>cryptocurrency community’s dream of truly anonymous money—with all the
>promises and perils that come with it. Stay tuned.
Tor + Ethereum + Augur + Zerocoin = ????????
The tools are coming together nicely.
Although, I think that Tor could use a little improvement.  Its three-hop method is limited and old.  Further, there should be an automatic system to generatedecoy messages at each stage in the transfer, built into the Tor protocol itself.(as well as the generation of spontaneous fake messages when network traffic is low.  Routers should be equipped with Tor relay capability built-in.
         Jim Bell

  
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From oshwm at openmailbox.org  Wed Nov  4 11:35:21 2015
From: oshwm at openmailbox.org (oshwm)
Date: Wed, 04 Nov 2015 19:35:21 +0000
Subject: UK To Ban Crypto In Devices, Email And More
In-Reply-To: <CAD2Ti294xEghJD4s-Hfb0K6db9FFZPqWLLTLbUN1eB2L+o-BgQ@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAD2Ti29w4u9RMOt_gRvWe-vYo_So4R4XyfOYJcqEe_XzPGAL4A@mail.gmail.com>
 <E1ZtgAi-0000Gy-3v@elasmtp-banded.atl.sa.earthlink.net>
 <56391C22.7010101@openmailbox.org>
 <CAD2Ti294xEghJD4s-Hfb0K6db9FFZPqWLLTLbUN1eB2L+o-BgQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <563A5DF9.3030105@openmailbox.org>



On 04/11/15 05:02, grarpamp wrote:
> On Tue, Nov 3, 2015 at 3:42 PM, oshwm <oshwm at openmailbox.org> wrote:
>> Well, this will tackle the problem of the law abiding sheeple using
>> crypto, I wonder what measures they have in store for those who truly
>> wish to protect their privacy using decentralised tools?
> 
> Honestly, the way people apparently like to bend over and
> get fucked up their ass (for both their own pleasure and that
> of their future descendants), they'll just disconnect the internet
> of anyone using crypto, unless it's to be a nice little consumer
> visiting Amazon, a taxpayer at the collector, and let's not forget
> the druggist, TV and beer... all handily balkanized just for you.

Internet Disconnection, with the right toolset its a game of whack-a-mole :)

> 
> If you can't reach the sheeple, you're as fucked as they are.
> 

You can't reach the sheeple now, that's the problem!!!

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From oshwm at openmailbox.org  Wed Nov  4 11:47:17 2015
From: oshwm at openmailbox.org (oshwm)
Date: Wed, 04 Nov 2015 19:47:17 +0000
Subject: Zerocoin Startup Revives the Dream of Truly Anonymous Money
In-Reply-To: <563a5cf6.a7688c0a.b05a5.4bf3@mx.google.com>
References: <CAJVRA1QQqJCyG-Hnivf3cZYWMarpuj-mWCe+v0Nv06ZCLVRAnQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <1193160704.2383148.1446660654887.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com>
 <563a5cf6.a7688c0a.b05a5.4bf3@mx.google.com>
Message-ID: <563A60C5.2080007@openmailbox.org>

Or just compile Tor/i2p/whatever for use on OpenWRT/LibreCMC :)

On 04/11/15 19:37, Juan wrote:
> On Wed, 4 Nov 2015 18:10:54 +0000 (UTC)
> jim bell <jdb10987 at yahoo.com> wrote:
> 
>>  Routers should be equipped with Tor relay capability built-in. Jim
> 
> 
> 	Sure. The pentagon and cisco could give those away for free.
> 
> 
> 
> 
>> Bell
>>
>>   
> 
> 

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From grarpamp at gmail.com  Wed Nov  4 23:18:49 2015
From: grarpamp at gmail.com (grarpamp)
Date: Thu, 5 Nov 2015 02:18:49 -0500
Subject: UK To Ban Crypto In Devices, Email And More
In-Reply-To: <1615040333.129678.1446707352819.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com>
References: <CAD2Ti29w4u9RMOt_gRvWe-vYo_So4R4XyfOYJcqEe_XzPGAL4A@mail.gmail.com>
 <1615040333.129678.1446707352819.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <CAD2Ti2-JXhoKZWk1PLJhnM-7c0SWSJXRR1tE4oq1qjuWVwabHw@mail.gmail.com>

On Thu, Nov 5, 2015 at 2:09 AM, jim bell <jdb10987 at yahoo.com> wrote:
> The UK government is able to do this, in part because UK doesn't have a
> Constitution,
> merely a Parliament.   Needless to say, the writers of the Magna Carta

> It occurs to me there may be at least two workarounds for this:

Which will in turn be outlawed by the runaway govt.
As will any other game you play with them while they are in control.
You have to stop the runaway govt, not the crypto.




From jdb10987 at yahoo.com  Wed Nov  4 23:09:12 2015
From: jdb10987 at yahoo.com (jim bell)
Date: Thu, 5 Nov 2015 07:09:12 +0000 (UTC)
Subject: UK To Ban Crypto In Devices, Email And More
In-Reply-To: <CAD2Ti29w4u9RMOt_gRvWe-vYo_So4R4XyfOYJcqEe_XzPGAL4A@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAD2Ti29w4u9RMOt_gRvWe-vYo_So4R4XyfOYJcqEe_XzPGAL4A@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <1615040333.129678.1446707352819.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com>

  From: grarpamp <grarpamp at gmail.com>
 To: cypherpunks at cpunks.org 
 Sent: Tuesday, November 3, 2015 9:27 AM
 Subject: UK To Ban Crypto In Devices, Email And More
   
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/terrorism-in-the-uk/11970391/Internet-firms-to-be-banned-from-offering-out-of-reach-communications-under-new-laws.html>banned from offering unbreakable encryption under new laws
>3:16PM GMT 02 Nov 2015
>Internet and social media companies will be banned from putting
>customer communications beyond their own reach under new laws to be
>unveiled on Wednesday.
>Companies such as Apple, Google and others will no longer be able to
>offer encryption so advanced that even they cannot decipher it when
>asked to, the Daily Telegraph can disclose.
>Measures in the Investigatory Powers Bill will place in law a
>requirement on tech firms and service providers to be able to provide
>unencrypted communications to the police or spy agencies if requested
>through a warrant.
The UK government is able to do this, in part because UK doesn't have a Constitution,merely a Parliament.   Needless to say, the writers of the Magna Carta didn'thave much familiarity with Internet, or even telephone, television, or telegraph.
It occurs to me there may be at least two workarounds for this:
1.  If there are no restrictions on this, the company providing the encryption might  make its decryption of messages take, say, 10 or more days per message, total  (so if GCHQ asks for 1 message each from 10 sources,, the thing will take 100 days.)Thus, it is technically able to decrypt, satisfying the law, just not fast enough to make
the government happy.
2.  Add hooks to provide for a second layer of encryption, enabled by the choice of the user.The company will be able to decrypt, but the result will appear random.                Jim Bell

  
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From Rayzer at riseup.net  Thu Nov  5 08:13:05 2015
From: Rayzer at riseup.net (Razer)
Date: Thu, 5 Nov 2015 08:13:05 -0800
Subject: UK To Ban Crypto In Devices, Email And More
In-Reply-To: <CAD2Ti2-JXhoKZWk1PLJhnM-7c0SWSJXRR1tE4oq1qjuWVwabHw@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAD2Ti29w4u9RMOt_gRvWe-vYo_So4R4XyfOYJcqEe_XzPGAL4A@mail.gmail.com>
 <1615040333.129678.1446707352819.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com>
 <CAD2Ti2-JXhoKZWk1PLJhnM-7c0SWSJXRR1tE4oq1qjuWVwabHw@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <563B8011.4060100@riseup.net>

On 11/04/2015 11:18 PM, grarpamp wrote:

> Which will in turn be outlawed by the runaway govt.
> As will any other game you play with them while they are in control.
> You have to stop the runaway govt, not the crypto.

It WOULD be interesting if the attacker was identified. Which nation
would prosecute? A nation with a government that believes in it's
citizen's privacy. IOW, no one will prosecute.

Governments, in collusion for their common interest, are above their own
laws.

RR

As a series of tweets:
https://twitter.com/AuntieImperial/status/662289782525964288



On 11/04/2015 11:18 PM, grarpamp wrote:
> On Thu, Nov 5, 2015 at 2:09 AM, jim bell <jdb10987 at yahoo.com> wrote:
>> The UK government is able to do this, in part because UK doesn't have a
>> Constitution,
>> merely a Parliament.   Needless to say, the writers of the Magna Carta
>> It occurs to me there may be at least two workarounds for this:
>   Which will in turn be outlawed by the runaway govt.
> As will any other game you play with them while they are in control.
> You have to stop the runaway govt, not the crypto.
>
>
>


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From Rayzer at riseup.net  Thu Nov  5 08:27:44 2015
From: Rayzer at riseup.net (Razer)
Date: Thu, 5 Nov 2015 08:27:44 -0800
Subject: UK To Ban Crypto In Devices, Email And More
In-Reply-To: <563B8011.4060100@riseup.net>
References: <CAD2Ti29w4u9RMOt_gRvWe-vYo_So4R4XyfOYJcqEe_XzPGAL4A@mail.gmail.com>
 <1615040333.129678.1446707352819.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com>
 <CAD2Ti2-JXhoKZWk1PLJhnM-7c0SWSJXRR1tE4oq1qjuWVwabHw@mail.gmail.com>
 <563B8011.4060100@riseup.net>
Message-ID: <563B8380.50305@riseup.net>



On 11/05/2015 08:13 AM, I wrote:

> It WOULD be interesting if the attacker was identified.

Should read: It WOULD be interesting if Protonmail's attacker was
identified.

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From drwho at virtadpt.net  Thu Nov  5 10:14:03 2015
From: drwho at virtadpt.net (The Doctor)
Date: Thu, 5 Nov 2015 10:14:03 -0800
Subject: UK To Ban Crypto In Devices, Email And More
In-Reply-To: <563A9958.6030305@riseup.net>
References: <CAD2Ti29w4u9RMOt_gRvWe-vYo_So4R4XyfOYJcqEe_XzPGAL4A@mail.gmail.com>
 <563A9958.6030305@riseup.net>
Message-ID: <20151105101403.8c269a73a4ac2c7f6949c261@virtadpt.net>

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA512

On Wed, 4 Nov 2015 15:48:40 -0800
Razer <Rayzer at riseup.net> wrote:

> Protonmail.ch has been under ongoing dDos attacks since the 3rd. They
> are one of the email providers using proprietary 'unbreakable' (in this
> case CERN & MIT developed) encryption.

Sounds like QUANTUMBOT has been spun up again.

- -- 
The Doctor [412/724/301/703/415] [ZS]

PGP: 0x807B17C1 / 7960 1CDC 85C9 0B63 8D9F  DD89 3BD8 FF2B 807B 17C1
WWW: https://drwho.virtadpt.net/

"I don't think I've ever seen anything quite like this before."

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From coderman at gmail.com  Thu Nov  5 19:39:50 2015
From: coderman at gmail.com (coderman)
Date: Thu, 5 Nov 2015 19:39:50 -0800
Subject: btc price analysis
In-Reply-To: <563c1d72.c417370a.9318a.fffff77b@mx.google.com>
References: <563c1d72.c417370a.9318a.fffff77b@mx.google.com>
Message-ID: <CAJVRA1QvteeZ5Psg=UiNi+AO+SWf21R-4-spW4-VbUPS2fj+-g@mail.gmail.com>

you're late to the pump and dump, Juan

;P


On 11/5/15, Juan <juan.g71 at gmail.com> wrote:
>
>
>
>
> 	I can't disclose my source, but I heard the pentagon is going
> 	to launch a prediction market denominated in btc. It's going to
> 	be open source and all western freedom fighters will be
> 	able to join the coding the effort. Hence the current spike.
>
> 	(It's all based on the scientific principle known as "the wisdom
> 	of crowds"  - Individual retards are retarded but when millions
> 	of retards bet together, there's an emergent and huge surge in
> 	wisdom)
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>




From shelley at misanthropia.org  Thu Nov  5 22:29:36 2015
From: shelley at misanthropia.org (Shelley)
Date: Thu, 05 Nov 2015 22:29:36 -0800
Subject: lol the lol intercept lol
In-Reply-To: <563c42a4.4d808c0a.614b0.fffffaae@mx.google.com>
References: <563c42a4.4d808c0a.614b0.fffffaae@mx.google.com>
Message-ID: <20151106062920.03CC1C016F0@frontend1.nyi.internal>

On November 5, 2015 10:10:57 PM Juan <juan.g71 at gmail.com> wrote:

> lol the lol intercept lol
>

I've haven't read the article; I've been too distracted to pay much 
attention to the list at all this week.  But I laughed out loud at your 
subject line, Juan - a laugh I needed, thank you :)

It also made me think "what are those weasels up to now..."

Glad to know they're still hiding behind cloudSnare but so concerned for 
our privacy!!1!11!

-S


> https://theintercept.com/2015/11/04/what-the-intercepts-new-audience-measurement-system-means-for-reader-privacy/
>
>
> " in April we became only the third internet service, behind Facebook
> and Blockchain.info, to allow people to contact us over HTTPS-encrypted
> connections to the anonymity network Tor."
>
>
> "it’s also important to disclose that there are other service providers
> we continue to use who do have access to information like your IP
> address, which articles on The Intercept you visit, and which computer
> operating system and web browser you use. Such partners include our
> content delivery network, CloudFlare; "
>
>
>
> 	But what I really like about the intercept is all their
> 	articles explaining how closely ebay and the american nazi
> 	government cooperate.
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>





From coderman at gmail.com  Thu Nov  5 23:02:27 2015
From: coderman at gmail.com (coderman)
Date: Thu, 5 Nov 2015 23:02:27 -0800
Subject: lol the lol intercept lol but who is
 https://y6xjgkgwj47us5ca.onion/
Message-ID: <CAJVRA1QP+jZyC8659S6KTXveHPJU1dF4_erJA7jz4bV5_qoHGA@mail.gmail.com>

what's most amusing is that the other two generated vanity onions,
while the intercept gave zero fucks. :P




From shelley at misanthropia.org  Thu Nov  5 23:19:24 2015
From: shelley at misanthropia.org (Shelley)
Date: Thu, 05 Nov 2015 23:19:24 -0800
Subject: lol the lol intercept lol
In-Reply-To: <563c521f.574d370a.8749.fffffe37@mx.google.com>
References: <563c42a4.4d808c0a.614b0.fffffaae@mx.google.com>
 <20151106062920.03CC1C016F0@frontend1.nyi.internal>
 <563c521f.574d370a.8749.fffffe37@mx.google.com>
Message-ID: <20151106071907.E97ABC016DA@frontend1.nyi.internal>

On November 5, 2015 11:15:29 PM Juan <juan.g71 at gmail.com> wrote:

> On Thu, 05 Nov 2015 22:29:36 -0800
> Shelley <shelley at misanthropia.org> wrote:
> >
> > Glad to know they're still hiding behind cloudSnare but so concerned
> > for our privacy!!1!11!
>
>
> 	There seems to be a cherry on top of that....
>
>
> 	Jake : "And, while I think about it, it is interesting that
> 	though all the gravatar images on these comments are the same
> 	blank-faced image, being loaded from gravatar.com, they all
> 	have different IDs."
>
>
> 	" Frankly astonishing that you spent nearly year on your
> 	parse.ly adventure and let gravatar.com have the keys to the
> 	back door."
>

I have blocked gravatar.com in my hosts file for so long, I'd never really 
considered that.  Heh.

-s







From juan.g71 at gmail.com  Thu Nov  5 19:31:27 2015
From: juan.g71 at gmail.com (Juan)
Date: Fri, 6 Nov 2015 00:31:27 -0300
Subject: btc price analysis
Message-ID: <563c1d72.c417370a.9318a.fffff77b@mx.google.com>





	I can't disclose my source, but I heard the pentagon is going
	to launch a prediction market denominated in btc. It's going to
	be open source and all western freedom fighters will be
	able to join the coding the effort. Hence the current spike. 

	(It's all based on the scientific principle known as "the wisdom
	of crowds"  - Individual retards are retarded but when millions
	of retards bet together, there's an emergent and huge surge in
	wisdom)












From juan.g71 at gmail.com  Thu Nov  5 19:52:04 2015
From: juan.g71 at gmail.com (Juan)
Date: Fri, 6 Nov 2015 00:52:04 -0300
Subject: btc price analysis
In-Reply-To: <CAJVRA1QvteeZ5Psg=UiNi+AO+SWf21R-4-spW4-VbUPS2fj+-g@mail.gmail.com>
References: <563c1d72.c417370a.9318a.fffff77b@mx.google.com>
 <CAJVRA1QvteeZ5Psg=UiNi+AO+SWf21R-4-spW4-VbUPS2fj+-g@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <563c2246.a00f370a.a0541.fffffa2e@mx.google.com>

On Thu, 5 Nov 2015 19:39:50 -0800
coderman <coderman at gmail.com> wrote:

> you're late to the pump and dump, Juan

	yes, sorry. I meant to write something like that a couple of
	days ago =P 



> 
> ;P
> 
> 
> On 11/5/15, Juan <juan.g71 at gmail.com> wrote:
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > 	I can't disclose my source, but I heard the pentagon is
> > going to launch a prediction market denominated in btc. It's going
> > to be open source and all western freedom fighters will be
> > 	able to join the coding the effort. Hence the current spike.
> >
> > 	(It's all based on the scientific principle known as "the
> > wisdom of crowds"  - Individual retards are retarded but when
> > millions of retards bet together, there's an emergent and huge
> > surge in wisdom)
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >




From mirimir at riseup.net  Fri Nov  6 00:16:46 2015
From: mirimir at riseup.net (Mirimir)
Date: Fri, 6 Nov 2015 01:16:46 -0700
Subject: lol the lol intercept lol but who is
 https://y6xjgkgwj47us5ca.onion/
In-Reply-To: <CAJVRA1QP+jZyC8659S6KTXveHPJU1dF4_erJA7jz4bV5_qoHGA@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAJVRA1QP+jZyC8659S6KTXveHPJU1dF4_erJA7jz4bV5_qoHGA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <563C61EE.5090103@riseup.net>

On 11/06/2015 12:02 AM, coderman wrote:
> what's most amusing is that the other two generated vanity onions,
> while the intercept gave zero fucks. :P

Zooko, dude ;)




From juan.g71 at gmail.com  Thu Nov  5 22:10:08 2015
From: juan.g71 at gmail.com (Juan)
Date: Fri, 6 Nov 2015 03:10:08 -0300
Subject: lol the lol intercept lol
Message-ID: <563c42a4.4d808c0a.614b0.fffffaae@mx.google.com>




https://theintercept.com/2015/11/04/what-the-intercepts-new-audience-measurement-system-means-for-reader-privacy/


" in April we became only the third internet service, behind Facebook
and Blockchain.info, to allow people to contact us over HTTPS-encrypted
connections to the anonymity network Tor." 


"it’s also important to disclose that there are other service providers
we continue to use who do have access to information like your IP
address, which articles on The Intercept you visit, and which computer
operating system and web browser you use. Such partners include our
content delivery network, CloudFlare; " 



	But what I really like about the intercept is all their
	articles explaining how closely ebay and the american nazi
	government cooperate.














From grarpamp at gmail.com  Fri Nov  6 00:45:12 2015
From: grarpamp at gmail.com (grarpamp)
Date: Fri, 6 Nov 2015 03:45:12 -0500
Subject: UK To Ban Crypto In Devices, Email And More
In-Reply-To: <CADrYLAj=8Sd0yOxbppEp=qp8CiLQJfg4PHLY8QmiU=vuQB_uyg@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAD2Ti29w4u9RMOt_gRvWe-vYo_So4R4XyfOYJcqEe_XzPGAL4A@mail.gmail.com>
 <E1ZtgAi-0000Gy-3v@elasmtp-banded.atl.sa.earthlink.net>
 <56391C22.7010101@openmailbox.org>
 <CADrYLAj=8Sd0yOxbppEp=qp8CiLQJfg4PHLY8QmiU=vuQB_uyg@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAD2Ti2-rA2vo2XYW+9t8ngCVg4Crt7c0z0+iudjvHLs8PW9kzA@mail.gmail.com>

On Fri, Nov 6, 2015 at 12:11 AM, Joseph Gentle <me at josephg.com> wrote:
> The government doesn't care about *us*. They care about making
> sure the remaining 99% of citizens are monitored.

In war (note the rising "war on crypto" rhetoric among parliaments),
a smart attacker generally aims for the officers, generals, supply lines
etc, not the cannon fodder 99% on the front lines. Therefore you can
expect them to take extra special care of you the 1%.




From juan.g71 at gmail.com  Thu Nov  5 23:16:11 2015
From: juan.g71 at gmail.com (Juan)
Date: Fri, 6 Nov 2015 04:16:11 -0300
Subject: lol the lol intercept lol
In-Reply-To: <20151106062920.03CC1C016F0@frontend1.nyi.internal>
References: <563c42a4.4d808c0a.614b0.fffffaae@mx.google.com>
 <20151106062920.03CC1C016F0@frontend1.nyi.internal>
Message-ID: <563c521f.574d370a.8749.fffffe37@mx.google.com>

On Thu, 05 Nov 2015 22:29:36 -0800
Shelley <shelley at misanthropia.org> wrote:

> On November 5, 2015 10:10:57 PM Juan <juan.g71 at gmail.com> wrote:
> 

> 
> Glad to know they're still hiding behind cloudSnare but so concerned
> for our privacy!!1!11!


	There seems to be a cherry on top of that....


	Jake : "And, while I think about it, it is interesting that
	though all the gravatar images on these comments are the same
	blank-faced image, being loaded from gravatar.com, they all
	have different IDs." 


	" Frankly astonishing that you spent nearly year on your
	parse.ly adventure and let gravatar.com have the keys to the
	back door." 




> 
> -S
> 
> 
> > https://theintercept.com/2015/11/04/what-the-intercepts-new-audience-measurement-system-means-for-reader-privacy/
> >
> >
> > " in April we became only the third internet service, behind
> > Facebook and Blockchain.info, to allow people to contact us over
> > HTTPS-encrypted connections to the anonymity network Tor."
> >
> >
> > "it’s also important to disclose that there are other service
> > providers we continue to use who do have access to information like
> > your IP address, which articles on The Intercept you visit, and
> > which computer operating system and web browser you use. Such
> > partners include our content delivery network, CloudFlare; "
> >
> >
> >
> > 	But what I really like about the intercept is all their
> > 	articles explaining how closely ebay and the american nazi
> > 	government cooperate.
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> 
> 





From tom at vondein.org  Fri Nov  6 01:44:20 2015
From: tom at vondein.org (Tom)
Date: Fri, 6 Nov 2015 10:44:20 +0100
Subject: UK To Ban Crypto In Devices, Email And More
In-Reply-To: <CAD2Ti2-rA2vo2XYW+9t8ngCVg4Crt7c0z0+iudjvHLs8PW9kzA@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAD2Ti29w4u9RMOt_gRvWe-vYo_So4R4XyfOYJcqEe_XzPGAL4A@mail.gmail.com>
 <E1ZtgAi-0000Gy-3v@elasmtp-banded.atl.sa.earthlink.net>
 <56391C22.7010101@openmailbox.org>
 <CADrYLAj=8Sd0yOxbppEp=qp8CiLQJfg4PHLY8QmiU=vuQB_uyg@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAD2Ti2-rA2vo2XYW+9t8ngCVg4Crt7c0z0+iudjvHLs8PW9kzA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <20151106094419.GC97416@r4>

On Fri, Nov 06, 2015 at 03:45:12AM -0500, grarpamp wrote:
> On Fri, Nov 6, 2015 at 12:11 AM, Joseph Gentle <me at josephg.com> wrote:
> > The government doesn't care about *us*. They care about making
> > sure the remaining 99% of citizens are monitored.
> 
> In war (note the rising "war on crypto" rhetoric among parliaments),
> a smart attacker generally aims for the officers, generals, supply lines
> etc, not the cannon fodder 99% on the front lines. Therefore you can
> expect them to take extra special care of you the 1%.

Also, they will NOT use the system to find evidence against already
known suspects but to find suspects in the first place. And this makes
you suspect:

a) you avoid certain communication channels, i.e. don't use social
  networks or leave your phone turned off while meeting with someone.

b) use encryption.



- Tom




From zen at freedbms.net  Fri Nov  6 04:38:19 2015
From: zen at freedbms.net (Zenaan Harkness)
Date: Fri, 6 Nov 2015 12:38:19 +0000
Subject: Negative interest rates redux (and pushing for "cashless society")
Message-ID: <CAOsGNSThWL=njZ_72BjDDqund=QG3k2hHTm+YzcpGWddoBiaAw@mail.gmail.com>

OK, this one's actual negative interest rates, but on deposits (vs for
loans), where you pay the bank to keep your money on deposit; this
breaks the previous assumption/ model that the minimum interest rate
can be zero %, at least for deposits, and so why not for loans as
well, i.e. pay you interest to take out a loan - perhaps trial actual
zero % loans first? :

[the article contains a graph 'growth in notes in circulation across
nations, USD, AUD, EUR, GBP, swedish KRO]

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/finance/economics/11895084/How-Swedens-negative-interest-rates-experiment-has-turned-economics-on-its-head.html
"
How Sweden's negative interest rates experiment has turned economics on its head

Nordic experimentation with sub-zero interest rates has changed the
way central bankers think about fighting recessions


It has long been believed that when it comes to interest rates, zero
is as low as you can go. Who would choose to keep their money in the
bank if they had to pay for the privilege?

But for the people who control the world’s money, this idea has
recently been thrown out of the window. Many central banks have pushed
their rates into negative territory and yet the financial system has
still to come to an abrupt end.

It is a discovery that flips on its head the conventional idea of how
authorities could respond to future economic crises; and for central
bankers, this has come as a relief.

Central bank policymakers had believed they had run out of room to
support their respective economies
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/finance/economics/11704051/The-world-is-defenseless-against-the-next-financial-crisis-warns-BIS.html
, with their interest rates held close to the floor.

 Traditionally, it was thought that if you wanted to boost the
economy, the central bank would reduce its interest rates. Normally,
the rates offered on savings accounts would follow, and people would
choose to spend more, and save less.

But there’s a limit, what economists called the “zero lower bound”.
Cut rates too deeply, and savers would end up facing negative returns.
In that case, this could encourage people to take their savings out of
the bank and hoard them in cash. This could slow, rather than boost,
the economy.

What is happening now should not – according to conventional thinking
– be possible.

As central bank rates have turned negative, the rates offered on bank
deposits have followed. Yet rather than stuffing cash under
mattresses, people have left their money in the bank or spent it.

Nowhere is the experiment with negative rates more obvious than among
Nordic central banks. Sweden – the first to dabble with negative rates
– is perhaps the prime candidate for such experimentation.

The country already has high savings rates, the third highest in the
developed world according to the OECD
http://stats.oecd.org/Index.aspx?QueryId=51648
and, despite growing at healthy rates, there appears to be plenty of
slack left in the economy to prevent an overheat.

Unemployment is unusually high for an advanced economy at more than
7pc, still well above its pre-crisis levels of sub-6pc. Crucially, the
Riksbank’s mandate suggests that such a radical experiment is
necessary. Policymakers have battled with deflation since late 2012,
and with inflation at minus 0.2pc in August, it remains well below the
central bank’s 2pc target.

To a great extent, the Riksbank’s hand has been forced by the plight
of the eurozone. A tepid recovery in the currency union has required
the European Central Bank (ECB) to bring in ever-looser policy
https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=5&ved=0CDkQFjAEahUKEwjrrq-r9ZfIAhVH0YAKHedjAqc&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.telegraph.co.uk%2Ffinance%2Feconomics%2F11362087%2FECBs-quantitative-easing-programme-launched-by-Mario-Draghi.html&usg=AFQjCNFFfDvJ2aZxqgaVu85yuyEhovaBvA&sig2=0XZ_SIjTr7yxN8PsUOwL6Q&bvm=bv.103388427,d.bGg&cad=rja
.

As the ECB’s actions have weakened the euro against Sweden’s krona,
the cost of importing goods into Sweden has fallen, and weighed down
on inflation. The Riksbank has had to cut its own rates in response in
an attempt to avoid deep deflation.

 Sweden’s flexible approach to monetary policy has won it the plaudits
of leading credit ratings agency. Standard and Poor’s recently
reaffirmed the country’s triple AAA sovereign rating, remarking on the
benefits it derives from “ample monetary policy flexibility”.

Noting that the Riksbank had introduced both negative interest rates
and quantitative easing, S&P said that “should inflation rates stay
low or the krona appreciate materially, the central bank could lower
the repo rate further”.

Many City analysts believe that the Riksbank will continue cutting,
reducing its key interest rate to minus 0.5pc by the end of the year.
Switzerland’s is already deeper still, at minus 0.75pc, while Denmark
and the eurozone have joined them as members of the negative zone.

What was once thought impossible now seems something that could come
to the UK in the years to come. And even in the US, which is thought
to be just months away from an interest rate rise, the idea of
negative interest rates has gained attention.

At the most recent meeting of the Federal Open Market Committee (FOMC)
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/finance/economics/11873141/Federal-Reserve-interest-rate-hike-hopes-pushed-back-to-2016-on-China-fears.html
, which decides US interest rates, one unnamed member said that they
expected negative policy rates at the end of this year and next.

But can policymakers keep at this forever? Even if turns out that the
lower bound was not negative, economists still believe that one
exists.

Attempts to estimate the unknown vary, but the fees charged by credit
companies give some indication as to how strongly we prefer to use
cash. These can be as low as minus 3pc according to Barclays,
indicating that central bankers have much more room to slash rates.

Pension funds might be among the first to abandon banks if things get
too painful, because of what in effect can look like a tax on holding
money.

One solution is to give savers nowhere else to go. This idea was
floated by the Bank of England’s chief economist in recent weeks, who
made the case that sub-zero rates will be needed in the near future
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/finance/bank-of-england/11874061/Negative-interest-rates-could-be-necessary-to-protect-UK-economy-says-Bank-of-England-chief-economist.html
.

 Andy Haldane, a member of the Monetary Policy Committee (MPC), the
UK’s equivalent of the FOMC suggested that to achieve properly
negative rates, the abolition of cash itself might be necessary.

This is one reason why negative rates have been used in Nordic
economies, where societies are already close to cashless. Even sellers
of Sweden’s version of the Big Issue magazine - Situation Stockholm -
are able to accept payment via debit or credit card.

For the immediate future, the British obsession with cash appears to
be intensifying. The Bank of England has said that demand for
banknotes and coins outstrips total spending in the economy
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/finance/bank-of-england/11865964/The-end-of-cash-It-might-not-be-as-soon-as-you-think.html
.

Some of like to hoard it for peace of mind, while many of us hold it
for day to day transactions. And much of it is held abroad, often in
bureaux de change.

There are other - perhaps more sinister - motives to prefer
non-electronic money. Unlike the money stored on spreadsheets, cash is
almost completely untraceable. For those who value their privacy, or
who deal in prohibited goods and services, there’s no beating it.

 Last week, Charles Goodhart, a former MPC member, said that Swiss and
ECB central bankers had been “absolutely shameless” in continuing to
issue high denomination notes, printing 1,000 Swiss franc and 500 euro
bills.

These high face values notes “are there to finance the drug deals”, Mr
Goodhart said at the annual Money, Macro and Finance Conference in
London. Sir Charles Bean, also a former deputy governor at the Bank of
England, echoed Mr Goodhart’s concerns.

He said that was “all in favour of getting rid of big-denomination
notes, which are used in the black economy”. Such a move could
increase the cost of holding cash, pushing the lower bound on policy
rates even lower. Sushil Wadhwani, a former MPC member, said: “We
should make it much more expensive to hold cash.”

No politician is likely to prohibit cash entirely, at least not until
it has already all but disappeared from day to day life. Concerns
about surveillance and the power of the state are likely to grow, as
electronic money is completely traceable.

“Cash is useful for small transactions, and until it disappears
naturally, I would be loathe to say let’s outlaw it,” says Sir
Charles.
"




From chasintail at emailcontrol.org  Fri Nov  6 04:43:25 2015
From: chasintail at emailcontrol.org (Cubed)
Date: Fri, 6 Nov 2015 12:43:25 +0000
Subject: Facebook censorship
In-Reply-To: <20151103164028.GA2617@sivokote.iziade.m$>
References: <CAOsGNSTjOUT-_qEV3EEYF-+0y3khwcc4xFyzBzGh17=Q7oyxPw@mail.gmail.com>
 <56380CC2.2070506@openmailbox.org>
 <20151103035136.50a9ff16@emailcontrol.org>
 <20151103164028.GA2617@sivokote.iziade.m$>
Message-ID: <20151106124325.258dfde9@emailcontrol.org>

Singularity defined as the moment when the technology humans create
creates technology faster than humans can understand it. Robots
creating robots in ways we didn't dictate and couldn't predict. 

As I've used the idea, I don't see it as a necessarily negative "event"
or "period". It simply is, or would be I should say. 

Imagine we somehow travel very far in space and find an less evolved
species of sentient beings living on a planet rich with resources. What
do you think those sentient beings will think when we start digging up
precious metals and maybe even mining fossil fuels, if we are still
doing that in this theoretical future? Will they understand our
machines? Will they understand our.. anything? Will we be seen as a
danger or as a deity? Most importantly, will they understand our
motivations or simply view our motivations through the lenses of their
existence? 

Assuming all sentient life evolves along the same basic trajectory as
ours, they will probably seek some answers to these many questions
through experiences they can relate to. But their experiences will
never provide meaningful frames of reference. 

Now, think about strong AI and the thoughts it would have. Strong AI
will be motivated, very quickly by some people's predictions, by things
we will not understand, eventually. 

To think that this conceptual future will be controllably is false by
the very definition of singularity. Are we controlled by the cows we
eat? Is our existence dictated by dolphins? We will not be able to
control strong AI, at a point, anymore than we can control the sun and
the moon. Which is not to say we will be without control, you can
always wear sunglasses. I'm sure many many humans will wear sunglasses.

In regards to extraterrestrial beings as well as strong AI; the
singularity idea is more than just bots and our deaths. It's about
transcending biology. And that's exactly where the hacker ethos is most
important because it's humans with disabilities and hackers that will
being the transformation of man to machine. There are no absolutes; the
singularity is not a this or that event. It's a technological awakening
and it's precisely when we, as humans, will have the opportunity to not
only shed our biology, but discard our dated concepts of society. 



On Tue, 3 Nov 2015 18:40:28 +0200
Georgi Guninski <guninski at guninski.com> wrote:

> On Tue, Nov 03, 2015 at 03:51:36AM +0000, Cubed wrote:
> > What we see here is the first signs of singularity. Before long,
> > these
> 
> By "singularity" do you mean "technological singularity" as defined in
> wikipedia (strong AI screws humans)?
> 
> I don't think such human made singularity will ever happen for the
> simple reason "hacker oligarchs" will control the bots.
> Extraterrestrial stuff maybe be possible though.




From chasintail at emailcontrol.org  Fri Nov  6 04:48:00 2015
From: chasintail at emailcontrol.org (Cubed)
Date: Fri, 6 Nov 2015 12:48:00 +0000
Subject: Facebook censorship
In-Reply-To: <20151103071457.GT97416@r4>
References: <CAOsGNSTjOUT-_qEV3EEYF-+0y3khwcc4xFyzBzGh17=Q7oyxPw@mail.gmail.com>
 <56380CC2.2070506@openmailbox.org>
 <20151103035136.50a9ff16@emailcontrol.org>
 <20151103071457.GT97416@r4>
Message-ID: <20151106124800.16c63521@emailcontrol.org>

Totally. Also, to see more evidence of these interactions, see the last
several flash crashes in the US stock markets. What's happening in
several of those situations is algos from competing brokerages
producing extreme unexpected results. Market crashes, pull the plug,
fix the algo or introduce some "rule". Rules being, IMO often
just a band-aid for not fixing the code and admitting it was technology
that ran away from them.


On Tue, 3 Nov 2015 08:14:57 +0100
Tom <tom at vondein.org> wrote:

> On Tue, Nov 03, 2015 at 03:51:36AM +0000, Cubed wrote:
> > What we see here is the first signs of singularity. Before long,
> > these propaganda articles will be algorithmically written,
> > automatically published, and will start to interact with each in
> > ways we could never have predicted resulting in outcomes outside of
> > the scope of our imaginations. 
> 
> Besides, that's already possible: http://clickotron.com/. Article:
> http://larseidnes.com/2015/10/13/auto-generating-clickbait-with-recurrent-neural-networks/.
> 
> :)
> 
> 
> 
> - Tom




From zen at freedbms.net  Fri Nov  6 05:51:06 2015
From: zen at freedbms.net (Zenaan Harkness)
Date: Fri, 6 Nov 2015 13:51:06 +0000
Subject: UK To Ban Crypto In Devices, Email And More
In-Reply-To: <CADrYLAj=8Sd0yOxbppEp=qp8CiLQJfg4PHLY8QmiU=vuQB_uyg@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAD2Ti29w4u9RMOt_gRvWe-vYo_So4R4XyfOYJcqEe_XzPGAL4A@mail.gmail.com>
 <E1ZtgAi-0000Gy-3v@elasmtp-banded.atl.sa.earthlink.net>
 <56391C22.7010101@openmailbox.org>
 <CADrYLAj=8Sd0yOxbppEp=qp8CiLQJfg4PHLY8QmiU=vuQB_uyg@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAOsGNSTC5yOVvSVgtMkzBUraGvtJzYoOrBsTNb_73q_XeG1ijQ@mail.gmail.com>

On 11/6/15, Joseph Gentle <me at josephg.com> wrote:
>> I wonder what measures they have in store for those who truly
>> wish to protect their privacy using decentralised tools?
>
> They don't care about us. Australia has banned guns. If you work
> really hard at it you can still get a gun in australia, but its really
> inconvenient. Simply making guns inconvenient has resulted in far
> fewer gun-related crimes.

Your propaganda is propaganda. Serious propagandists at least cite
where their crap comes from.

A web search for "australian gun related crime" perhaps?

The second result:
http://louderwithcrowder.com/obama-praises-australias-gun-ban-the-actual-results/
(also check the comments, although more cites would be good, but hey,
your position is simply not true, not even close)




From me at josephg.com  Thu Nov  5 21:11:20 2015
From: me at josephg.com (Joseph Gentle)
Date: Fri, 6 Nov 2015 16:11:20 +1100
Subject: UK To Ban Crypto In Devices, Email And More
In-Reply-To: <56391C22.7010101@openmailbox.org>
References: <CAD2Ti29w4u9RMOt_gRvWe-vYo_So4R4XyfOYJcqEe_XzPGAL4A@mail.gmail.com>
 <E1ZtgAi-0000Gy-3v@elasmtp-banded.atl.sa.earthlink.net>
 <56391C22.7010101@openmailbox.org>
Message-ID: <CADrYLAj=8Sd0yOxbppEp=qp8CiLQJfg4PHLY8QmiU=vuQB_uyg@mail.gmail.com>

> I wonder what measures they have in store for those who truly
> wish to protect their privacy using decentralised tools?

They don't care about us. Australia has banned guns. If you work
really hard at it you can still get a gun in australia, but its really
inconvenient. Simply making guns inconvenient has resulted in far
fewer gun-related crimes. They'll never get the last 1% of guns out of
people's hands, but it turns out they don't actually need to.

Crypto is going to be the same - lets be honest here - if Apple,
Google and Facebook are prevented from providing good security out of
the box, how many people will take the extra steps to install and use
Signal? The government doesn't care about *us*. They care about making
sure the remaining 99% of citizens are monitored.

-J


On Wed, Nov 4, 2015 at 7:42 AM, oshwm <oshwm at openmailbox.org> wrote:
> Well, this will tackle the problem of the law abiding sheeple using
> crypto, I wonder what measures they have in store for those who truly
> wish to protect their privacy using decentralised tools?
>
>
> On 03/11/15 18:20, John Young wrote:
>> Excellent development if the bill is enacted. Should shatter the
>> complacency
>> of crypto advocates and foster other means and methods now getting
>> short shrift due to the faith in crypto hyping and marketing -- and tons of
>> excuses why crypto has not been as effective as foreordained, blame
>> users, blame implementation, blame standards committees, blame spies,
>> blame legislators, blame certificate authorities, blame hardware, blame
>> insiders and outsiders, blame amateurs, blame backdoors, blame
>> venal marketers who sold out to authorities, blame duat hatters working
>> both sides of the porous divide, blame open and closed source, the
>> pile of excuses grows exponentially as money is heaped onto the
>> fire for burning through faster and faster. NSA has at least 191 colleges
>> on the take for information assurance studies, with more joining daily
>> to get while the getting is good, sending graduates to corporations,
>> institutes, NGOs, hack world, leak world, defy authority world as
>> evidenced here in this sacred site of tipped gravestones to cipher
>> heroics.
>>
>>
>> At 12:27 PM 11/3/2015, you wrote:
>>> http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/terrorism-in-the-uk/11970391/Internet-firms-to-be-banned-from-offering-out-of-reach-communications-under-new-laws.html
>>>
>>>
>>> Internet firms to be banned from offering unbreakable encryption under
>>> new laws
>>>
>>> 3:16PM GMT 02 Nov 2015
>>>
>>> Internet and social media companies will be banned from putting
>>> customer communications beyond their own reach under new laws to be
>>> unveiled on Wednesday.
>>> Companies such as Apple, Google and others will no longer be able to
>>> offer encryption so advanced that even they cannot decipher it when
>>> asked to, the Daily Telegraph can disclose.
>>> Measures in the Investigatory Powers Bill will place in law a
>>> requirement on tech firms and service providers to be able to provide
>>> unencrypted communications to the police or spy agencies if requested
>>> through a warrant.
>>
>>
>




From themikebest at gmail.com  Fri Nov  6 13:45:44 2015
From: themikebest at gmail.com (Michael Best)
Date: Fri, 6 Nov 2015 16:45:44 -0500
Subject: And now, for a moment of levity
Message-ID: <CANFTA09z3+7iZMbA+-AWScojyt8GLDmu04-uw_9F0wnKsTMXBg@mail.gmail.com>

In lieu of the covert comic, some humor for a list that's often...
contentious. Enjoy, if you dare venture to the Twit-light Zone.
https://twitter.com/FreudCyber

Choice quotes:

   - Cryptanalysis is, in essence, a cure through love and mathematics.

   - The hacker has a number of representations for the erection of the
   male genital that may be called symbolic, such as "privilege escalation".

   - Furthermore, to the male hacker, the female genital is represented by
   TCP ports, cryptographic tokens, and input buffers.

   - Bad security serves to arouse sexual inquisitiveness, which always
   strives to restore the sexual object by uncovering the hidden data.

   - The super-user retains the character of the father. The more powerful
   the Oedipus complex was, the more elevated its privileges will be.

   - A hacker's mental life can be described in terms of the id and the
   super-user. The super-user emerges when the id retreats, becomes zero.
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From coderman at gmail.com  Fri Nov  6 16:51:32 2015
From: coderman at gmail.com (coderman)
Date: Fri, 6 Nov 2015 16:51:32 -0800
Subject: FOIPA adventures
In-Reply-To: <CAJVRA1TbbVJ-88nHq0GKMhS5Z3GQ+=jCqv2E49FS=4L2+xQeFg@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAJVRA1SaJpNaPQx=s_7VVM==ony2sH0aUG3w11cjNX6escSm8w@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAJVRA1TUfu40206TOzK2kBsgCvbgBYYXmyKZ3E5n4KQuoEtZyg@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAJVRA1QtgMky_hsDLsmFwiXcxE528bZaDOQsjTqqj4tR-dbGBQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAJVRA1RwoyoRs-REWnhGd8cHZM6EJvcziTUDXbU5A6TMigOT6A@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAJVRA1Rwaq1fvE8p-s1JwOANvMc7X2E75bx5eNd4KGJapt6Nuw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAJVRA1TU5Frg3WOJk+3ZFEH0QAFya5xZnwzCfCUE+hL1NhKUFg@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAJVRA1Q0SDo9Fj3KAU9vA3cxR2=7pwcdpO3Ex=yi6g2WtRAg6A@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAJVRA1Srrb08Z9XvG+rYq30p2E_MnhJA6ynOLpdT--6gCvwiyQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAJVRA1RXD2dr16TJZK-MPcJm7nR0Ov=Dp9i5Anf5hKNFs2hq7w@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAJVRA1S97DSPk0NBjgon1LS4HHuGtq_03dqFppUnWq+t61a41A@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAJVRA1SyW_wOUcFUo6STbiePO8HmLV9LgF-PCgugvuPRD_tKWA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAJVRA1QaYYF=hoSQiSd4SHNUj-W6hjEJDhy1KxR9CfFKDgNkew@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAJVRA1TvZxj_qz6_xK8h13LOD-5mE6iNvT9dnThf4ue0_=kY3Q@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAJVRA1RbeuzfiVAOqaZ15p8kr67jxcBoNMOrJkt3K86_=FuVXw@mail.gmail.com>
 <000701d0bcb7$94118e80$bc34ab80$@co.uk>
 <CAJVRA1SE1O-PqmkV8vX=q5j_xs-YFOpH=OLxSvwaT8BBvadQmA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAJVRA1TwM3Re8Tz6NPxp_CeY5C4K3QN+Ceo5VbW3JKMbBABv9g@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAJVRA1SbqTrEbUJ84rLFWdu6+psY5uUzu-ZsVfyUwoSaMRcGdQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAJVRA1RDN6HsLCbF_wsK+zARO9PaEn80R9FSGnWgGVF4XkbbpQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAJVRA1Rt2gKvgnM0MCiqf2Q4vJ8wWxm=KabcQXeBYSqn4zRvKg@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAJVRA1Q95CKTVahkfQeH_pwaGDcgJ-4OL2=9o5ckQrZLG8HeUA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAJVRA1SyX65OE9-7DQ1hP1fGWHxY8rvCqFXhKPu4Oy4o6wt0gg@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAJVRA1SgoLtLFS9AFf_d043AGDVbKp4djDtijDR+zfCRJ8twTA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAJVRA1SvN5ML7TQnOUqz78PhYv8aefz=k8-4fPOwv2uHUVF3_w@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAJVRA1Ry2EV7qaFHmZJ9cjm8-waCNBCzenO9BpqW+YKChEHX7w@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAJVRA1S5juVmB6Ouy0JWbdeJdj9yz0W6tKQDY2q_zi+AC461EA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAJVRA1SYO0ia4VGLwFwZFowkD75YR61MC1TNc1wzHbZtmhy1_w@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAJVRA1SqWMVy6m6KuiJWQQG_6XPWoB+86-p45PWKvfn8wg_jeA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAJVRA1RWaiCZtig6+Seyk-UN9M3h9+2iZ0Otnqb6n=AFcRAeRw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAJVRA1QzHeh=rs0hRf0sugLZdbXvAhK+2Yte5Tbt_Tnv5Tf8mg@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAJVRA1SdAW+36Z8yYTdSFTtz8S8U5aiELv5NiuXg5Rg-vaFYew@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAJVRA1Svk488ax6sd4oy52rfM_u_E1EuzhUAQt6cQ2Jy5yRx5g@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAJVRA1S4=X5P6hKnZu224GjseL5ws1vRm6Gk4gJ+DG06oLjaDA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAJVRA1RsgoKvADCcRz76vj1xjT+EQDB96tw7-sgg_pf+BGzA=A@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAJVRA1TOMYnBh0-B=uh6n2HsOsFdY+SKVG-=XqKi6WPNro++PA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAJVRA1Qao1qE2kBSbb_V5NPQ7PF--VFnYQpc=08wY2_ZURz4hg@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAJVRA1S45TEydVoKDxW9SfC0DKcSdxB_HfjrvcZQjU5uymfFOQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAD2Ti29j9qCnTCBEpaTj9B2NdWpLQoAiT02QzbitiART9tFg6A@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAJVRA1SAOUWi485z=_VRnhLu=EL1c8rVQOvdFz09-P4TjbLHww@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAJVRA1T0E3Lny4YPOjvvCtpSZOmx5dim+nw7e_Zzz-PYXNUAjg@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAJVRA1TtoL+tz0XYxNPSV7oE7HBVWORZ65Og6hrREQzreN6ozw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAJVRA1TbbVJ-88nHq0GKMhS5Z3GQ+=jCqv2E49FS=4L2+xQeFg@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAJVRA1SmqVnWdic5s6f8pk_GxVZ9-hr+d+siOaTWLbtvurk23Q@mail.gmail.com>

DEA responded with the least useful docs first,
  https://www.muckrock.com/foi/united-states-of-america-10/drtbeboeingbox-18710/#file-61105

and wants $240 for the rest.
 yet they closed the request to further thwart my ability to pay for it!
  :o

'''
Any and all SKUs, Contracts, Invoices, Receipts, Billing Numbers,
Agreements, PO Numbers, for any services or goods purchased from
Boeing Corporation, including third party contract hours for training
or related services, regarding hardware to include Digital Signal
Processing (DSP) or Cell-site Simulators or Software Defined Radio
(SDR) base-stations, or Stingray-like pen/trace-trap devices, or other
radio surveillance technology, including technology formerly produced
by Digital Receiver Technology, Inc., also known as DRT Systems, now
part of Boeing, known to include the DRTBox, or DirtBox, or DirtBoxes
surveillance gear. Please include antenna systems and cable hardware,
as part of the radio systems to report on.
'''




From coderman at gmail.com  Fri Nov  6 18:27:10 2015
From: coderman at gmail.com (coderman)
Date: Fri, 6 Nov 2015 18:27:10 -0800
Subject: FOIPA adventures
In-Reply-To: <CAJVRA1SmqVnWdic5s6f8pk_GxVZ9-hr+d+siOaTWLbtvurk23Q@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAJVRA1SaJpNaPQx=s_7VVM==ony2sH0aUG3w11cjNX6escSm8w@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAJVRA1TUfu40206TOzK2kBsgCvbgBYYXmyKZ3E5n4KQuoEtZyg@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAJVRA1QtgMky_hsDLsmFwiXcxE528bZaDOQsjTqqj4tR-dbGBQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAJVRA1RwoyoRs-REWnhGd8cHZM6EJvcziTUDXbU5A6TMigOT6A@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAJVRA1Rwaq1fvE8p-s1JwOANvMc7X2E75bx5eNd4KGJapt6Nuw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAJVRA1TU5Frg3WOJk+3ZFEH0QAFya5xZnwzCfCUE+hL1NhKUFg@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAJVRA1Q0SDo9Fj3KAU9vA3cxR2=7pwcdpO3Ex=yi6g2WtRAg6A@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAJVRA1Srrb08Z9XvG+rYq30p2E_MnhJA6ynOLpdT--6gCvwiyQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAJVRA1RXD2dr16TJZK-MPcJm7nR0Ov=Dp9i5Anf5hKNFs2hq7w@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAJVRA1S97DSPk0NBjgon1LS4HHuGtq_03dqFppUnWq+t61a41A@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAJVRA1SyW_wOUcFUo6STbiePO8HmLV9LgF-PCgugvuPRD_tKWA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAJVRA1QaYYF=hoSQiSd4SHNUj-W6hjEJDhy1KxR9CfFKDgNkew@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAJVRA1TvZxj_qz6_xK8h13LOD-5mE6iNvT9dnThf4ue0_=kY3Q@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAJVRA1RbeuzfiVAOqaZ15p8kr67jxcBoNMOrJkt3K86_=FuVXw@mail.gmail.com>
 <000701d0bcb7$94118e80$bc34ab80$@co.uk>
 <CAJVRA1SE1O-PqmkV8vX=q5j_xs-YFOpH=OLxSvwaT8BBvadQmA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAJVRA1TwM3Re8Tz6NPxp_CeY5C4K3QN+Ceo5VbW3JKMbBABv9g@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAJVRA1SbqTrEbUJ84rLFWdu6+psY5uUzu-ZsVfyUwoSaMRcGdQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAJVRA1RDN6HsLCbF_wsK+zARO9PaEn80R9FSGnWgGVF4XkbbpQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAJVRA1Rt2gKvgnM0MCiqf2Q4vJ8wWxm=KabcQXeBYSqn4zRvKg@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAJVRA1Q95CKTVahkfQeH_pwaGDcgJ-4OL2=9o5ckQrZLG8HeUA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAJVRA1SyX65OE9-7DQ1hP1fGWHxY8rvCqFXhKPu4Oy4o6wt0gg@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAJVRA1SgoLtLFS9AFf_d043AGDVbKp4djDtijDR+zfCRJ8twTA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAJVRA1SvN5ML7TQnOUqz78PhYv8aefz=k8-4fPOwv2uHUVF3_w@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAJVRA1Ry2EV7qaFHmZJ9cjm8-waCNBCzenO9BpqW+YKChEHX7w@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAJVRA1S5juVmB6Ouy0JWbdeJdj9yz0W6tKQDY2q_zi+AC461EA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAJVRA1SYO0ia4VGLwFwZFowkD75YR61MC1TNc1wzHbZtmhy1_w@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAJVRA1SqWMVy6m6KuiJWQQG_6XPWoB+86-p45PWKvfn8wg_jeA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAJVRA1RWaiCZtig6+Seyk-UN9M3h9+2iZ0Otnqb6n=AFcRAeRw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAJVRA1QzHeh=rs0hRf0sugLZdbXvAhK+2Yte5Tbt_Tnv5Tf8mg@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAJVRA1SdAW+36Z8yYTdSFTtz8S8U5aiELv5NiuXg5Rg-vaFYew@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAJVRA1Svk488ax6sd4oy52rfM_u_E1EuzhUAQt6cQ2Jy5yRx5g@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAJVRA1S4=X5P6hKnZu224GjseL5ws1vRm6Gk4gJ+DG06oLjaDA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAJVRA1RsgoKvADCcRz76vj1xjT+EQDB96tw7-sgg_pf+BGzA=A@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAJVRA1TOMYnBh0-B=uh6n2HsOsFdY+SKVG-=XqKi6WPNro++PA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAJVRA1Qao1qE2kBSbb_V5NPQ7PF--VFnYQpc=08wY2_ZURz4hg@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAJVRA1S45TEydVoKDxW9SfC0DKcSdxB_HfjrvcZQjU5uymfFOQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAD2Ti29j9qCnTCBEpaTj9B2NdWpLQoAiT02QzbitiART9tFg6A@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAJVRA1SAOUWi485z=_VRnhLu=EL1c8rVQOvdFz09-P4TjbLHww@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAJVRA1T0E3Lny4YPOjvvCtpSZOmx5dim+nw7e_Zzz-PYXNUAjg@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAJVRA1TtoL+tz0XYxNPSV7oE7HBVWORZ65Og6hrREQzreN6ozw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAJVRA1TbbVJ-88nHq0GKMhS5Z3GQ+=jCqv2E49FS=4L2+xQeFg@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAJVRA1SmqVnWdic5s6f8pk_GxVZ9-hr+d+siOaTWLbtvurk23Q@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAJVRA1Q-aARB1bqZ6k1TWf=kfnSNRiKqeaCa=FAJoFK2bXjd-A@mail.gmail.com>

On 11/6/15, coderman <coderman at gmail.com> wrote:
> DEA responded with the least useful docs first,
>
> https://www.muckrock.com/foi/united-states-of-america-10/drtbeboeingbox-18710/#file-61105
>
> and wants $240 for the rest.
>  yet they closed the request to further thwart my ability to pay for it!
>   :o


so,
'''
For the year 2014, either placed or completed, records including any
and all SKUs, Contracts, Invoices, Receipts, Billing Numbers,
Agreements, PO Numbers, for any hardware purchased from Boeing
Corporation technology such as Cell-site Simulators or Software
Defined Radio (SDR) base-stations, or Stingray-like pen/trace-trap
devices, or other radio surveillance technology, including technology
formerly produced by Digital Receiver Technology, Inc., also known as
DRT Systems, now part of Boeing, known to include the DRTBox, or
DirtBox, or DirtBoxes surveillance gear. Please EXCLUDE antenna
systems, software upgrades, or other ancillary components of these
primary systems - only primary technology items / invoices /
technology of interest per this request.
'''
 - https://www.muckrock.com/foi/united-states-of-america-10/mindrtbeboeingbox-22286/

2013 - https://www.muckrock.com/foi/united-states-of-america-10/mindrtbeboeingbox-22287/

2012 - https://www.muckrock.com/foi/united-states-of-america-10/mindrtbeboeingbox-22288/




From pgut001 at cs.auckland.ac.nz  Fri Nov  6 16:34:29 2015
From: pgut001 at cs.auckland.ac.nz (Peter Gutmann)
Date: Sat, 7 Nov 2015 00:34:29 +0000
Subject: [FORGED] Re: UK To Ban Crypto In Devices, Email And More
In-Reply-To: <CADrYLAiDiS1hLyfwARG7dtzVd4OLmN4R5-07fTTQpvZ54gMmWQ@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAD2Ti29w4u9RMOt_gRvWe-vYo_So4R4XyfOYJcqEe_XzPGAL4A@mail.gmail.com>
 <E1ZtgAi-0000Gy-3v@elasmtp-banded.atl.sa.earthlink.net>
 <56391C22.7010101@openmailbox.org>
 <CADrYLAj=8Sd0yOxbppEp=qp8CiLQJfg4PHLY8QmiU=vuQB_uyg@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAOsGNSTC5yOVvSVgtMkzBUraGvtJzYoOrBsTNb_73q_XeG1ijQ@mail.gmail.com>,
 <CADrYLAiDiS1hLyfwARG7dtzVd4OLmN4R5-07fTTQpvZ54gMmWQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <9A043F3CF02CD34C8E74AC1594475C73F4B588DC@uxcn10-5.UoA.auckland.ac.nz>

Joseph Gentle <me at josephg.com> writes:

I don't really want to get involved in this debate (who has that much
asbestos?), but wanted to comment on one thing:

>You just don't see guns in Australia. I don't know anyone who has one.

You're a townie then?  If it's like NZ, pretty much every farm in the country
has (or had) one or more rifles, typically a .303 because they were cheap and
a .22 for dealing with rabbit infestations (they're mostly useless against
possums, another major plague).  Also, the fact that you don't see them
doesn't say anything about whether they're there or not.  At the time of the
gun grab, a friend of mine who lived in Queensland and was doing some work on
his house found it more or less impossible to buy PVC fittings of particular
sizes and types, the explanation being that the stocks had been drained by
people using them to sequester their firearms.  So they may have managed to
destroy large numbers of firearms, but they also drove large numbers off the
books and underground (literally, in many cases).

Peter.




From zen at freedbms.net  Fri Nov  6 17:12:52 2015
From: zen at freedbms.net (Zenaan Harkness)
Date: Sat, 7 Nov 2015 01:12:52 +0000
Subject: UK To Ban Crypto In Devices, Email And More
In-Reply-To: <CADrYLAiDiS1hLyfwARG7dtzVd4OLmN4R5-07fTTQpvZ54gMmWQ@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAD2Ti29w4u9RMOt_gRvWe-vYo_So4R4XyfOYJcqEe_XzPGAL4A@mail.gmail.com>
 <E1ZtgAi-0000Gy-3v@elasmtp-banded.atl.sa.earthlink.net>
 <56391C22.7010101@openmailbox.org>
 <CADrYLAj=8Sd0yOxbppEp=qp8CiLQJfg4PHLY8QmiU=vuQB_uyg@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAOsGNSTC5yOVvSVgtMkzBUraGvtJzYoOrBsTNb_73q_XeG1ijQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <CADrYLAiDiS1hLyfwARG7dtzVd4OLmN4R5-07fTTQpvZ54gMmWQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAOsGNSRF59FnB++Zm2cZdJ68PLK7i1qb31urPt=1rhJFg-50Rg@mail.gmail.com>

On 11/7/15, Joseph Gentle <me at josephg.com> wrote:
> On Sat, Nov 7, 2015 at 12:51 AM, Zenaan Harkness <zen at freedbms.net> wrote:
>> http://louderwithcrowder.com/obama-praises-australias-gun-ban-the-actual-results/

The following quote does have embedded links: "there’s argument about
whether the gun related homicides and other various crimes have
actually increased or not. Some places have the homicide rate
increasing at 3.2% along with armed robbery at 44%, while some other
stats have them remaining about the same. At the very least, we do
know that the policies have not significantly decreased crime. That’s
not even being debated. Which…considering that the Australian
government spent a considerable amount of money on the laws, seems at
the very least, disappointing."


That article's comments also linked to the following, which is much more useful:
"Australia enacted one of the largest gun reforms ever nearly 2
decades ago — and gun deaths plummeted"
http://www.businessinsider.com/australia-gun-control-shootings-2015-10

and which, despite the headline, goes on to highlight with stats from
-before- the gun law changes (well shit, how can you see a cause if
you don't know the numbers prior to the supposed cause), "Firearm
suicides and homicides did drop after Australia's buyback and
enactment of the NFA. As The Washington Post's Wonkblog has pointed
out, researchers from two different Australian universities found
that, in the decade after the NFA was introduced, the firearm homicide
rate fell by 59% and the firearm suicide rate fell by 65% — without
increases in other types of deaths.
Here's a bigger picture:
[graph]
australia gun deaths bi Andy Kiersz/Business Insider
Whether the NFA catalyzed that decline, however, is still up for
debate. Over the last several decades, gun deaths in most developed
nations have been trending downward, and studies struggle to determine
how much of the drop resulted from Australia's legislation. Causality
is also inherently difficult to determine in social sciences."

And that graph is, to my eyes, unequivocally compelling - the trend
was already in place, and the Port-Aurthur massacre 'NFA' laws change
did -not- effect that trend in an identifiable way - in fact, it could
well be argued that the change in laws precipitated a steady decline
in the annual reduction of Australian gun-deaths, to the point where
it appears that the decline has all but plateaued - i.e. no more
decline. But what I won't say is that these Australian post Port
Arthur laws caused that plateau - frankly I have no idea, and a proper
study of potential causes would need to be undertaken, if it's
possible at all...

What this graph clearly shows is that it is impossible to conclude
that those Australian post Port Arthur compulsory gun buyback 'NFA'
laws caused any increase in the prior trend of gun death decline
within Australia.


> Its amazing NRA propaganda still manages to rewrite the history on the
> story on the ground here. You just don't see guns in Australia. I

Actually, I do. I live rurally though.


> don't know anyone who has one. I'd never seen a gun be drawn or fired
> in real life before I moved to the USA. (Source: I've lived in
> Australia for 30 years)

I've lived in Australia for longer than you. So what - that's
irrelevant to the point - whether or not gun-related crime and/ or
deaths has reduced due to Australia's anti-gun policy, or not. We
could also debate whether disarming of the population is a 'good'
thing or not but that would be opinion porn.


> From
> http://theconversation.com/faking-waves-how-the-nra-and-pro-gun-americans-abuse-australian-crime-stats-11678
> :
>
>   While the impact of the Australian gun laws is still debated, there
> have been large decreases in the number of firearm suicides and the
> number of firearm homicides in Australia. Homicide rates in Australia
> are only 1.2 per 100,000 people, with less than 15% of these resulting
> from firearms.

Current rates, are not comparative rates. Common sense 1-0-1.

(In case you miss the point - comparative means not between countries,
but comparing the point at issue - Australia's compulsory gun buyback
laws introduction.)


>   Prior to the implementation of the gun laws, 112 people were killed
> in 11 mass shootings. Since the implementation of the gun laws, no
> comparable gun massacres have occurred in Australia.

I am not qualified to comment on the statistical significance of this,
nor do I have facts regarding this - although the Lindt Cafe shooting
earlier this year in Sydney may or may not be a relevant data point.


>   Remarkably, American pro-gun advocates try to use the impact of the
> Australian gun law reform to make a case that reform “doesn’t work”.

>From the comparative statistics I've seen, and everything I've read
since Port Arthur, I believe the NRA position to be correct. As of
this year, we now have more guns in Australia than we had prior to the
buyback. Again, perhaps not a very useful data point.


> This seems amazing given the homicide rate in the United States is
> five per 100,000 people, with most homicides involving firearms.

Again, comparing countries anecdotally is not the same as analysing
the effects of population disarming laws.


> From http://sydney.edu.au/news/84.html?newsstoryid=1502 :
>
>   "From 1996 to 2003, the total number of gun deaths each year fell
> from 521 to 289, suggesting that the removal of more than 700,000 guns
> was associated with a faster declining rate of gun suicide and gun
> homicide,"

Again hog-wash, since there is no comparison to the pre-disarm-laws.
Unlike the graph I posted above.


>   By 2002/03, Australia's rate of 0.27 firearm-related homicides per
> 100,000 population had dropped to one-fifteenth that of the United
> States.

Again, I don't know how this is relevant to analysing the efficacy of
gun control laws.

Zenaan

PS: I read in one article the claim that 'unlike America, Australians
don't have a constitutional right to bear arms'. This is actually not
true, just that most people don't know it. Our Australian federal
constitution creates the Commonwealth of Australia, creates each of
the states, creates our superior court (the High Court we call it),
creates our federal parliament, and our High Court, in Mabo 2 (a
ruling from I think 1998) upheld the continuity of the Imperial Acts
including the Bill of Rights 1688, as well as the Magna Charta/ Magna
Carta. Unfortunately, the head of our NRA equivalent sold us out quite
some years back when he proclaimed very publicly "there's nothing we
can" (or words to that effect). Australians - mostly bloody ratbags
acting in total self interest.




From zen at freedbms.net  Fri Nov  6 17:35:10 2015
From: zen at freedbms.net (Zenaan Harkness)
Date: Sat, 7 Nov 2015 01:35:10 +0000
Subject: UK To Ban Crypto In Devices, Email And More
In-Reply-To: <CAOsGNSRF59FnB++Zm2cZdJ68PLK7i1qb31urPt=1rhJFg-50Rg@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAD2Ti29w4u9RMOt_gRvWe-vYo_So4R4XyfOYJcqEe_XzPGAL4A@mail.gmail.com>
 <E1ZtgAi-0000Gy-3v@elasmtp-banded.atl.sa.earthlink.net>
 <56391C22.7010101@openmailbox.org>
 <CADrYLAj=8Sd0yOxbppEp=qp8CiLQJfg4PHLY8QmiU=vuQB_uyg@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAOsGNSTC5yOVvSVgtMkzBUraGvtJzYoOrBsTNb_73q_XeG1ijQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <CADrYLAiDiS1hLyfwARG7dtzVd4OLmN4R5-07fTTQpvZ54gMmWQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAOsGNSRF59FnB++Zm2cZdJ68PLK7i1qb31urPt=1rhJFg-50Rg@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAOsGNSTQC4_WNR-kFx5MeAt_r9X=tGfm1HR-hOeZY8FzZ0Pb8g@mail.gmail.com>

PPS a seemingly more balanced viewpoint ("gun bans do little overall")
which compares a few countries:
http://www.mintpressnews.com/the-facts-that-neither-side-wants-to-admit-about-gun-control/207152/




From zen at freedbms.net  Fri Nov  6 18:26:41 2015
From: zen at freedbms.net (Zenaan Harkness)
Date: Sat, 7 Nov 2015 02:26:41 +0000
Subject: =?UTF-8?Q?=E2=80=98I=E2=80=99m_comfortable_with_my_choices=E2=80=99=3A_Snowden_on_?=
 =?UTF-8?Q?CIA_torture=2C_ISIS_and_surveillance?=
Message-ID: <CAOsGNSQXpXJbe9j0NfFZxptOOOh7+meediA5TRvUMBGD6Gqebg@mail.gmail.com>

https://www.rt.com/news/321105-snowden-swedish-media-interview/

http://fokus.dn.se/edward-snowden-english/




From Rayzer at riseup.net  Sat Nov  7 09:20:49 2015
From: Rayzer at riseup.net (Razer)
Date: Sat, 7 Nov 2015 09:20:49 -0800
Subject: Protonmail releases details of dDos attack
Message-ID: <563E32F1.7060803@riseup.net>

They paid ransom to 'criminals' and it didn't stop. I stand by my
earlier statement UK government's GCHQ/allied nation's intel agencies
are responsible, and will never be held accountable under their own laws.

Anyone know bitcoin address 1FxHcZzW3z9NRSUnQ9Pcp58ddYaSuN1T2y?

Interpol want to speak with them...

RR
-----------------------------

ProtonMail Statement about the DDOS Attack

As many of you know, ProtonMail came under sustained DDOS attack
starting on November 3rd, 2015. At the current moment, we are not under
attack and have been able to restore services, but we may come under
attack again.

We are currently working with solution providers to find a way to
mitigate this attack, however, it is quite unprecedented in size and
scope so unfortunately finding a working solution is not easy. Because
of the sophistication of this attack, we will also need to resort to
quite expensive solutions which will burden our finances. It is for this
reason that we are also collecting donations for a ProtonMail defense fund.

ProtonMail was originally created to provide privacy to activists,
journalists, whistleblowers, and other at risk groups, and we have many
of those people in the ProtonMail community. Unfortunately, there are
groups out there determined to oppose this which has led to this
incident. However, we are confident that with your support, we can
overcome this attack and come back stronger than ever, and continue to
provide a place where online privacy is protected.

As we will detail below, this attack has grown beyond just ProtonMail
and is a full fledged cyberattack. We have been working with the Swiss
Governmental Computer Emergency Response Team (GovCERT), the Cybercrime
Coordination Unit Switzerland (CYCO), as part of an ongoing criminal
investigation being conducted here in Switzerland and with the
assistance of Europol. After much consultation, we have decided to
release details about the full extent of the attack on us so the broader
security and privacy community can stay informed.

Slightly before midnight on November 3rd, 2015, we received a blackmail
email from a group of criminals who have been responsible for a string
of DDOS attacks which have happened across Switzerland in the past few
weeks.

This threat was followed by a DDOS attack which took us offline for
approximately 15 minutes. We did not receive the next attack until
approximately 11AM the next morning. At this point, our datacenter and
their upstream provider began to take steps to mitigate the attack.
However, within the span of a few hours, the attacks began to take on an
unprecedented level of sophistication.

At around 2PM, the attackers began directly attacking the infrastructure
of our upstream providers and the datacenter itself. The coordinated
assault on our ISP exceeded 100Gbps and attacked not only the
datacenter, but also routers in Zurich, Frankfurt, and other locations
where our ISP has nodes. This coordinated assault on key infrastructure
eventually managed to bring down both the datacenter and the ISP, which
impacted hundreds of other companies, not just ProtonMail.

At this point, we were placed under a lot of pressure by third parties
to just pay the ransom, which we grudgingly agreed to do at 3:30PM
Geneva time to the bitcoin address 1FxHcZzW3z9NRSUnQ9Pcp58ddYaSuN1T2y.
This was a collective decision taken by all impacted companies, and
while we disagree with it, we nevertheless respected it taking into the
consideration the hundreds of thousands of Swiss Francs in damages
suffered by other companies caught up in the attack against us. We hoped
that by paying, we could spare the other companies impacted by the
attack against us, but the attacks continued nevertheless. This was
clearly a wrong decision so let us be clear to all future attackers –
ProtonMail will NEVER pay another ransom.

Through MELANI (a division of the Swiss federal government), we
exchanged information with other companies who have also been attacked
and made a few discoveries. First, the attack against ProtonMail can be
divided into two stages. The first stage is the volumetric attack which
was targeting just our IP addresses. The second stage is the more
complex attack which targeted weak points in the infrastructure of our
ISPs. This second phase has not been observed in any other recent
attacks on Swiss companies and was technically much more sophisticated.
This means that ProtonMail is likely under attack by two separate
groups, with the second attackers exhibiting capabilities more commonly
possessed by state-sponsored actors. It also shows that the second
attackers were not afraid of causing massive collateral damage in order
to get at us.

At present, ProtonMail’s infrastructure is still vulnerable to attacks
of this magnitude, but we have a comprehensive long term solution which
is already being implemented. Protecting against a highly sophisticated
attack like the second one which was launched against us requires
sophisticated solutions as we also need to protect our datacenter and
upstream providers. Cost estimates for these solutions are around
$100,000 per year since there are few service providers able to fight
off an attack of this size and sophistication. These solutions are
expensive and take time to implement, but they will be necessary because
it is clear that online privacy has powerful opponents. In order to
cover these costs, we are collecting donations for a ProtonMail defense
fund, which can be found here:

We are fighting not just for privacy, but for the future of the
internet. We would especially like to thank the thousands of users who
offered their support and encouragement on Twitter and Facebook, we will
never stop fighting for you. Over the next several weeks, we will begin
putting in place the sophisticated protections that are necessary to
withstand large scale attacks like this to ensure that online privacy
can’t be taken down.

https://protonmaildotcom.wordpress.com/2015/11/05/protonmail-statement-about-the-ddos-attack/
---------------------------------------------------




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From me at josephg.com  Fri Nov  6 16:13:30 2015
From: me at josephg.com (Joseph Gentle)
Date: Sat, 7 Nov 2015 11:13:30 +1100
Subject: UK To Ban Crypto In Devices, Email And More
In-Reply-To: <CAOsGNSTC5yOVvSVgtMkzBUraGvtJzYoOrBsTNb_73q_XeG1ijQ@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAD2Ti29w4u9RMOt_gRvWe-vYo_So4R4XyfOYJcqEe_XzPGAL4A@mail.gmail.com>
 <E1ZtgAi-0000Gy-3v@elasmtp-banded.atl.sa.earthlink.net>
 <56391C22.7010101@openmailbox.org>
 <CADrYLAj=8Sd0yOxbppEp=qp8CiLQJfg4PHLY8QmiU=vuQB_uyg@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAOsGNSTC5yOVvSVgtMkzBUraGvtJzYoOrBsTNb_73q_XeG1ijQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CADrYLAiDiS1hLyfwARG7dtzVd4OLmN4R5-07fTTQpvZ54gMmWQ@mail.gmail.com>

On Sat, Nov 7, 2015 at 12:51 AM, Zenaan Harkness <zen at freedbms.net> wrote:
> On 11/6/15, Joseph Gentle <me at josephg.com> wrote:
>>> I wonder what measures they have in store for those who truly
>>> wish to protect their privacy using decentralised tools?
>>
>> They don't care about us. Australia has banned guns. If you work
>> really hard at it you can still get a gun in australia, but its really
>> inconvenient. Simply making guns inconvenient has resulted in far
>> fewer gun-related crimes.
>
> Your propaganda is propaganda. Serious propagandists at least cite
> where their crap comes from.
>
> A web search for "australian gun related crime" perhaps?
>
> The second result:
> http://louderwithcrowder.com/obama-praises-australias-gun-ban-the-actual-results/
> (also check the comments, although more cites would be good, but hey,
> your position is simply not true, not even close)


Its amazing NRA propaganda still manages to rewrite the history on the
story on the ground here. You just don't see guns in Australia. I
don't know anyone who has one. I'd never seen a gun be drawn or fired
in real life before I moved to the USA. (Source: I've lived in
Australia for 30 years)


>From http://theconversation.com/faking-waves-how-the-nra-and-pro-gun-americans-abuse-australian-crime-stats-11678
:

  While the impact of the Australian gun laws is still debated, there
have been large decreases in the number of firearm suicides and the
number of firearm homicides in Australia. Homicide rates in Australia
are only 1.2 per 100,000 people, with less than 15% of these resulting
from firearms.

  Prior to the implementation of the gun laws, 112 people were killed
in 11 mass shootings. Since the implementation of the gun laws, no
comparable gun massacres have occurred in Australia.

  Remarkably, American pro-gun advocates try to use the impact of the
Australian gun law reform to make a case that reform “doesn’t work”.
This seems amazing given the homicide rate in the United States is
five per 100,000 people, with most homicides involving firearms.


>From http://sydney.edu.au/news/84.html?newsstoryid=1502 :

  "From 1996 to 2003, the total number of gun deaths each year fell
from 521 to 289, suggesting that the removal of more than 700,000 guns
was associated with a faster declining rate of gun suicide and gun
homicide,"

  By 2002/03, Australia's rate of 0.27 firearm-related homicides per
100,000 population had dropped to one-fifteenth that of the United
States.




From me at josephg.com  Fri Nov  6 16:56:42 2015
From: me at josephg.com (Joseph Gentle)
Date: Sat, 7 Nov 2015 11:56:42 +1100
Subject: [FORGED] Re: UK To Ban Crypto In Devices, Email And More
In-Reply-To: <9A043F3CF02CD34C8E74AC1594475C73F4B588DC@uxcn10-5.UoA.auckland.ac.nz>
References: <CAD2Ti29w4u9RMOt_gRvWe-vYo_So4R4XyfOYJcqEe_XzPGAL4A@mail.gmail.com>
 <E1ZtgAi-0000Gy-3v@elasmtp-banded.atl.sa.earthlink.net>
 <56391C22.7010101@openmailbox.org>
 <CADrYLAj=8Sd0yOxbppEp=qp8CiLQJfg4PHLY8QmiU=vuQB_uyg@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAOsGNSTC5yOVvSVgtMkzBUraGvtJzYoOrBsTNb_73q_XeG1ijQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <CADrYLAiDiS1hLyfwARG7dtzVd4OLmN4R5-07fTTQpvZ54gMmWQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <9A043F3CF02CD34C8E74AC1594475C73F4B588DC@uxcn10-5.UoA.auckland.ac.nz>
Message-ID: <CADrYLAg0ZHqG-gvYdBmOrnMfafkv96RFrcy29dKQrjrDHB-0+Q@mail.gmail.com>

On 7 Nov 2015 11:34 AM, "Peter Gutmann" <pgut001 at cs.auckland.ac.nz> wrote:
>
> Joseph Gentle <me at josephg.com> writes:
>
> I don't really want to get involved in this debate (who has that much
> asbestos?), but wanted to comment on one thing:
>
> >You just don't see guns in Australia. I don't know anyone who has one.
>
> You're a townie then?  If it's like NZ, pretty much every farm in the
country
> has (or had) one or more rifles, typically a .303 because they were cheap
and
> a .22 for dealing with rabbit infestations (they're mostly useless against
> possums, another major plague).  Also, the fact that you don't see them
> doesn't say anything about whether they're there or not.  At the time of
the
> gun grab, a friend of mine who lived in Queensland and was doing some
work on
> his house found it more or less impossible to buy PVC fittings of
particular
> sizes and types, the explanation being that the stocks had been drained by
> people using them to sequester their firearms.  So they may have managed
to
> destroy large numbers of firearms, but they also drove large numbers off
the
> books and underground (literally, in many cases).
>
> Peter.

Yeah I've lived in Sydney most of my life.

But this goes back to my original point - despite lots of guns being
quietly hidden around the place, most crimes still don't use them! Which is
not at all an obvious outcome. It implies that most crimes aren't well
planned and premeditated, and that simply making something *inconvenient*
goes a long way toward banning it, even if people have strong incentives to
overcome the inconvenience.

We've seen exactly this with crypto too. Industry grade crypto has existed
for years, but things like PGP being simply *inconvenient* has resulted in
it having virtually no adoption. The big threat to pervasive surveillance
isn't pgp, its companies like apple and whatsapp bringing that technology
to the masses. The UK government only has to outlaw the big players
implementing decent crypto, and 90%+ of communications will still be
visible to surveillance. Even amongst criminals.

We should be worried, but this isn't a play for us.

-J
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From juan.g71 at gmail.com  Sat Nov  7 13:14:41 2015
From: juan.g71 at gmail.com (Juan)
Date: Sat, 7 Nov 2015 18:14:41 -0300
Subject: =?UTF-8?B?4oCYSeKAmW0=?= comfortable with my =?UTF-8?B?Y2hv?=
 =?UTF-8?B?aWNlc+KAmTo=?= Snowden on CIA torture, ISIS and surveillance
In-Reply-To: <CAOsGNSQXpXJbe9j0NfFZxptOOOh7+meediA5TRvUMBGD6Gqebg@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAOsGNSQXpXJbe9j0NfFZxptOOOh7+meediA5TRvUMBGD6Gqebg@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <563e6821.c61f370a.d9a6d.ffffa6fe@mx.google.com>

On Sat, 7 Nov 2015 02:26:41 +0000
Zenaan Harkness <zen at freedbms.net> wrote:

> https://www.rt.com/news/321105-snowden-swedish-media-interview/
> 
> http://fokus.dn.se/edward-snowden-english/


	"...because Russia has such a bad international reputation
	right now." 

	LMAO

	"Apart from the human costs for the people who are actually
	performing the torture and the people who are actually being
	tortured," 


	costs to the psycho scumbags who torture people? snowden seems
	to be out of his mind. Or maybe he's just your typical
	american psycho.


	" We actually spend money to shoot ourselves in the foot." 

	such an innocent mistake 

	" legitimize abuse in countries like North Korea, Russia or
	China." 

	...
	
	"I signed up for the war in Iraq when everybody else was
	protesting against it. People get in the whole conservatives
	versus liberal thing, and they like to think of those
	conservative people as hateful people that don’t care." 

	so snowden doesn't know that both conservatives and 'liberals'
	are fucking nazis like him. That's really cute. 


	" Like with the drone program, which creates more terrorists
	than it kills. " 

	terrorists?

	" The biggest threat we face in the region was born from our
	own policies." 

	threat? 

	I can't believe he's such a motherfucking idiot - and shitbag.
	Or perhaps he IS a US gov't propganda contractor. Hired by the
	'good guys' inside the US gov't. 

	








	



	











 








	
	






From juan.g71 at gmail.com  Sat Nov  7 14:05:37 2015
From: juan.g71 at gmail.com (Juan)
Date: Sat, 7 Nov 2015 19:05:37 -0300
Subject: [FORGED] Re: UK To Ban Crypto In Devices, Email And More
In-Reply-To: <CADrYLAg0ZHqG-gvYdBmOrnMfafkv96RFrcy29dKQrjrDHB-0+Q@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAD2Ti29w4u9RMOt_gRvWe-vYo_So4R4XyfOYJcqEe_XzPGAL4A@mail.gmail.com>
 <E1ZtgAi-0000Gy-3v@elasmtp-banded.atl.sa.earthlink.net>
 <56391C22.7010101@openmailbox.org>
 <CADrYLAj=8Sd0yOxbppEp=qp8CiLQJfg4PHLY8QmiU=vuQB_uyg@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAOsGNSTC5yOVvSVgtMkzBUraGvtJzYoOrBsTNb_73q_XeG1ijQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <CADrYLAiDiS1hLyfwARG7dtzVd4OLmN4R5-07fTTQpvZ54gMmWQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <9A043F3CF02CD34C8E74AC1594475C73F4B588DC@uxcn10-5.UoA.auckland.ac.nz>
 <CADrYLAg0ZHqG-gvYdBmOrnMfafkv96RFrcy29dKQrjrDHB-0+Q@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <563e7411.73608c0a.b519.ffffacab@mx.google.com>

On Sat, 7 Nov 2015 11:56:42 +1100
Joseph Gentle <me at josephg.com> wrote:

 The big threat to
> pervasive surveillance isn't pgp, its companies like apple and
> whatsapp bringing that technology to the masses. 

	Please. Those companies are just branches of the US government
	and its vasal states. 


> The UK government
> only has to outlaw the big players implementing decent crypto, and
> 90%+ of communications will still be visible to surveillance. Even
> amongst criminals.

	Actuatlly it doesn't make sense for the government criminals to
	'outlaw' 'decent' crypto since they can get all the information
	they want from their criminal 'private' partners. 

> 
> We should be worried, but this isn't a play for us.
> 
> -J




From juan.g71 at gmail.com  Sat Nov  7 14:19:26 2015
From: juan.g71 at gmail.com (Juan)
Date: Sat, 7 Nov 2015 19:19:26 -0300
Subject: =?UTF-8?B?4oCYSeKAmW0=?= comfortable with my =?UTF-8?B?Y2hv?=
 =?UTF-8?B?aWNlc+KAmTo=?= Snowden on CIA torture, ISIS and surveillance
In-Reply-To: <CAOsGNSQXpXJbe9j0NfFZxptOOOh7+meediA5TRvUMBGD6Gqebg@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAOsGNSQXpXJbe9j0NfFZxptOOOh7+meediA5TRvUMBGD6Gqebg@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <563e774d.871c8d0a.3d67d.ffffaa23@mx.google.com>

On Sat, 7 Nov 2015 02:26:41 +0000
Zenaan Harkness <zen at freedbms.net> wrote:

> https://www.rt.com/news/321105-snowden-swedish-media-interview/
> 
> http://fokus.dn.se/edward-snowden-english/


	more snowden mental vomit 


	" if you give the US special back door access, you’re not going
	to be able to sell your iPhone in China, unless you also give
	them a back door. The same in Russia." 

	
	" These[nsa cunts like him] are not people torturing people. " 


	Right, they are not torturing and killing people directly. They
	just pick the 'targets'. 

	





	



	











 








	
	






From ryacko at gmail.com  Sat Nov  7 22:53:25 2015
From: ryacko at gmail.com (Ryan Carboni)
Date: Sat, 7 Nov 2015 22:53:25 -0800
Subject: FOIPA adventures
Message-ID: <CAO7N=i2tYWrCXbb6ePTioJnDGdcsUPPoigRH-N-7Vvmy5c6VAA@mail.gmail.com>

http://www.dni.gov/files/documents/FOIA/DF-2015-00270.pdf

You're famous!




From juan.g71 at gmail.com  Sat Nov  7 19:28:24 2015
From: juan.g71 at gmail.com (Juan)
Date: Sun, 8 Nov 2015 00:28:24 -0300
Subject: [FORGED] Re: UK To Ban Crypto In Devices, Email And More
In-Reply-To: <9A043F3CF02CD34C8E74AC1594475C73F4B59632@uxcn10-5.UoA.auckland.ac.nz>
References: <CAD2Ti29w4u9RMOt_gRvWe-vYo_So4R4XyfOYJcqEe_XzPGAL4A@mail.gmail.com>
 <E1ZtgAi-0000Gy-3v@elasmtp-banded.atl.sa.earthlink.net>
 <56391C22.7010101@openmailbox.org>
 <CADrYLAj=8Sd0yOxbppEp=qp8CiLQJfg4PHLY8QmiU=vuQB_uyg@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAOsGNSTC5yOVvSVgtMkzBUraGvtJzYoOrBsTNb_73q_XeG1ijQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <CADrYLAiDiS1hLyfwARG7dtzVd4OLmN4R5-07fTTQpvZ54gMmWQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <9A043F3CF02CD34C8E74AC1594475C73F4B588DC@uxcn10-5.UoA.auckland.ac.nz>
 <CADrYLAg0ZHqG-gvYdBmOrnMfafkv96RFrcy29dKQrjrDHB-0+Q@mail.gmail.com>
 <9A043F3CF02CD34C8E74AC1594475C73F4B59632@uxcn10-5.UoA.auckland.ac.nz>
Message-ID: <563ebfbb.33268c0a.d899e.ffffcbab@mx.google.com>

On Sun, 8 Nov 2015 02:10:19 +0000
Peter Gutmann <pgut001 at cs.auckland.ac.nz> wrote:

> Joseph Gentle <me at josephg.com> writes:
> 
> >Industry grade crypto has existed for years, but things like PGP
> >being simply *inconvenient* has resulted in it having virtually no
> >adoption. The big threat to pervasive surveillance isn't pgp, its
> >companies like apple and whatsapp bringing that technology to the
> >masses.
> 
> That's a good point actually.  In my enormous to-read pile I've got
> "Why Johnny Still Can't Encrypt", and that's from fifteen years after
> the original paper on PGP's unusability was published.  It's scary to
> think that companies like Apple have done more to protect us from
> intrusive government surveillance


	LMAO

	http://readwrite.com/2014/07/23/apple-ios-backdoor-acknowledgement-support-document


> than nearly a quarter century of
> PGP has, because they've made it usable by the masses.
>

	and the proof for that claim is, where? 



 
> Peter.




From pgut001 at cs.auckland.ac.nz  Sat Nov  7 18:10:19 2015
From: pgut001 at cs.auckland.ac.nz (Peter Gutmann)
Date: Sun, 8 Nov 2015 02:10:19 +0000
Subject: [FORGED] Re: UK To Ban Crypto In Devices, Email And More
In-Reply-To: <CADrYLAg0ZHqG-gvYdBmOrnMfafkv96RFrcy29dKQrjrDHB-0+Q@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAD2Ti29w4u9RMOt_gRvWe-vYo_So4R4XyfOYJcqEe_XzPGAL4A@mail.gmail.com>
 <E1ZtgAi-0000Gy-3v@elasmtp-banded.atl.sa.earthlink.net>
 <56391C22.7010101@openmailbox.org>
 <CADrYLAj=8Sd0yOxbppEp=qp8CiLQJfg4PHLY8QmiU=vuQB_uyg@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAOsGNSTC5yOVvSVgtMkzBUraGvtJzYoOrBsTNb_73q_XeG1ijQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <CADrYLAiDiS1hLyfwARG7dtzVd4OLmN4R5-07fTTQpvZ54gMmWQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <9A043F3CF02CD34C8E74AC1594475C73F4B588DC@uxcn10-5.UoA.auckland.ac.nz>,
 <CADrYLAg0ZHqG-gvYdBmOrnMfafkv96RFrcy29dKQrjrDHB-0+Q@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <9A043F3CF02CD34C8E74AC1594475C73F4B59632@uxcn10-5.UoA.auckland.ac.nz>

Joseph Gentle <me at josephg.com> writes:

>Industry grade crypto has existed for years, but things like PGP being simply
>*inconvenient* has resulted in it having virtually no adoption. The big threat
>to pervasive surveillance isn't pgp, its companies like apple and whatsapp
>bringing that technology to the masses.

That's a good point actually.  In my enormous to-read pile I've got "Why
Johnny Still Can't Encrypt", and that's from fifteen years after the original
paper on PGP's unusability was published.  It's scary to think that companies
like Apple have done more to protect us from intrusive government surveillance
than nearly a quarter century of PGP has, because they've made it usable by
the masses.

Peter.




From juan.g71 at gmail.com  Sat Nov  7 22:36:43 2015
From: juan.g71 at gmail.com (Juan)
Date: Sun, 8 Nov 2015 03:36:43 -0300
Subject: [FORGED] Re: UK To Ban Crypto In Devices, Email And More
In-Reply-To: <CADrYLAjdZhORXVodwt_EETwXsAd6eSVT8-PgqyRpaG2yUQYv5w@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAD2Ti29w4u9RMOt_gRvWe-vYo_So4R4XyfOYJcqEe_XzPGAL4A@mail.gmail.com>
 <E1ZtgAi-0000Gy-3v@elasmtp-banded.atl.sa.earthlink.net>
 <56391C22.7010101@openmailbox.org>
 <CADrYLAj=8Sd0yOxbppEp=qp8CiLQJfg4PHLY8QmiU=vuQB_uyg@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAOsGNSTC5yOVvSVgtMkzBUraGvtJzYoOrBsTNb_73q_XeG1ijQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <CADrYLAiDiS1hLyfwARG7dtzVd4OLmN4R5-07fTTQpvZ54gMmWQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <9A043F3CF02CD34C8E74AC1594475C73F4B588DC@uxcn10-5.UoA.auckland.ac.nz>
 <CADrYLAg0ZHqG-gvYdBmOrnMfafkv96RFrcy29dKQrjrDHB-0+Q@mail.gmail.com>
 <9A043F3CF02CD34C8E74AC1594475C73F4B59632@uxcn10-5.UoA.auckland.ac.nz>
 <563ebfbb.33268c0a.d899e.ffffcbab@mx.google.com>
 <CADrYLAjdZhORXVodwt_EETwXsAd6eSVT8-PgqyRpaG2yUQYv5w@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <563eebdf.431a370a.afed.ffffd5ca@mx.google.com>

On Sun, 8 Nov 2015 15:02:46 +1100
Joseph Gentle <me at josephg.com> wrote:


> >         LMAO
> >
> >         http://readwrite.com/2014/07/23/apple-ios-backdoor-acknowledgement-support-document
> 
> Got anything more recent than July 2014? 

	I don't, though I didn't bother checking. July 2014 isn't too
	ancient anyway. 


> Apple has been claiming far
> and wide that from iOS 8 even they cannot access the data stored on a
> locked device without a password:
> http://appleinsider.com/articles/14/09/17/apple-says-incapable-of-decrypting-user-data-with-ios-8-even-for-government-agencies

	Oh, if they so then it must be true =) 


> 
> All three APIs listed in that readwrite article require access to
> services via USB, which require a device the phone trusts and (I
> think) for the device to be unlocked. I would be quite surprised if it
> turned out that apple really can decrypt data for the government on
> locked devices. They've been quite public about this policy, and
> they've claimed they can't access said data under oath. Its also a
> fantastic strategic move for them to fight off android - given
> google's business model it'll be impossible for android to follow
> suit.
> 
> I am about 90-95% confident that there aren't any intentional holes in
> iOS through which apple can read data thats only stored on my device.

	Well, I'm 100% confident that a company like apple is not to be
	trusted.

	
> (I recently switched from android to iOS for this reason.)
> 

	Good luck. Out of the fire into the frying pan =P


> >> than nearly a quarter century of
> >> PGP has, because they've made it usable by the masses.
> >>
> >
> >         and the proof for that claim is, where?
> 
> It was very impressive for its time but what impact has PGP *actually*
> made? You seem like a sufficiently paranoid human who knows about PGP,
> knows what it does and you're technically capable of installing it and
> using it. So tell me - how many encrypted emails do you send and
> receive with PGP?

	Very few. However, as far as I know, people who need to
	encrypt stuff that the government isn't supposed to read, say
	people buying and selling 'illegal' drugs, use p/gpg not
	iphones. 

 
> I think PGP's legacy is that it started a conversation around crypto
> and privacy. But as a *product* it was a complete failure. I mean, it
> doesn't even protect metadata.

	Well, it's a client-side encryption tool. Nobody can 'encrypt'
	the fact that he sent or received mail. PGP is not a mix
	network...

	And does a company like apple which collects information about
	hundreds of millions of people protect 'metadata' better? 

	Anyway, to expect the likes of apple to actually oppose the
	government (that is to say their partners) is naive at best,
	in my opinion. 






> 
> -J
> 
> >
> >> Peter.
> >




From jya at pipeline.com  Sun Nov  8 02:51:47 2015
From: jya at pipeline.com (John Young)
Date: Sun, 08 Nov 2015 05:51:47 -0500
Subject: Fwd: Re: [FORGED] Re: [FORGED] Re: UK To Ban Crypto In
 Devices, Email And More
Message-ID: <E1ZvNZG-0003Qb-5E@elasmtp-spurfowl.atl.sa.earthlink.net>

Analogy of learning to drive to learning crypto is pretty good privacy.

Extend that from needing a key, fob or fingerprint to start a vehicle
to needing a computer and a device, token, card, fingerprint, to
encrypt. Plug it in, encrypt begins, nothing else needed except
driver license, intelligence, vision, hearing, gasoline or battery,
safe roads, directional signs, fuel stations, cops, insurance,
anti-theft devices, annual inspection, license renewal, or when
disabled, poor or broke, terrified of mass killing excessive
vehicles, alternate means of encryption, like buses, trains,
aircraft, ships, taxis, limos, choppers, subways, balloons,
horses, feet and sidewalks while packing a gun, knife or
pepper spray for defense against predators, rapists, thieves,
rubber hoses, hackers, crackers, dopeheads.

But maybe a profession of encryption officers to encrypt for
the user, like lawyers, doctors, engineers and notaries, state
licensed for protection of customers, self-regulated because
nobody would know crypto like the pros, with a crypto system
like the justice and prison systems to assure accountability and
punishment for infraction. Would require outlawing crypto use
by anyone except a pro and official secretkeepers but, cereal
box DIY would be available. PKC would be banned as a state,
church and family offense, like kiddie porn and WMD.

Cryptographers would be venerated as high holies, sack clothed,
wild haired, slit-eyed, filthy, babbling, narcissitic jerks, abusively
sado-masochistic, panhandling, duplicitous, feared, contemptuous
of ordinary humans, ostracized, distrusted. Woe peddling obsessives.

Hmm, that last is the current faith in encryption religion. Could be
left as it is, isolated, ignored, ridiculed, tatooed with a Red C
on forehead.


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>Date: Sun, 08 Nov 2015 08:45:43 +0000
>From: oshwm <oshwm at openmailbox.org>
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>To: Peter Gutmann <pgut001 at cs.auckland.ac.nz>,
>         "cypherpunks at cpunks.org" <cypherpunks at cpunks.org>
>Subject: Re: [FORGED] Re: [FORGED] Re: UK To Ban Crypto In Devices, Email
>  And More
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>
>On 08/11/15 08:40, Peter Gutmann wrote:
> > oshwm <oshwm at openmailbox.org> writes:
> >
> >> Can GPG be easier to use, I think so, is it too difficult to use 
> by ordinary
> >> people - no, they're just too fucking lazy and lack motivation.
> >
> > ... and this is pretty much the poster child for why we have so 
> much unusable
> > crypto today.
> >
>
>Or, why we have such a fucking retarded human race with the attention
>span of a knat who expect everything to be given to them on a plate.
>People have to stop being lazy and start taking an interest and
>responsibility for what goes on in the world around them - your point of
>view re-inforces the dumbing down of the population and the increase in
>power of the Government and big Corps.
>
> > Peter.
> >
>
>





From oshwm at openmailbox.org  Sun Nov  8 00:24:11 2015
From: oshwm at openmailbox.org (oshwm)
Date: Sun, 08 Nov 2015 08:24:11 +0000
Subject: [FORGED] Re: UK To Ban Crypto In Devices, Email And More
In-Reply-To: <563eebdf.431a370a.afed.ffffd5ca@mx.google.com>
References: <CAD2Ti29w4u9RMOt_gRvWe-vYo_So4R4XyfOYJcqEe_XzPGAL4A@mail.gmail.com>
 <E1ZtgAi-0000Gy-3v@elasmtp-banded.atl.sa.earthlink.net>
 <56391C22.7010101@openmailbox.org>
 <CADrYLAj=8Sd0yOxbppEp=qp8CiLQJfg4PHLY8QmiU=vuQB_uyg@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAOsGNSTC5yOVvSVgtMkzBUraGvtJzYoOrBsTNb_73q_XeG1ijQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <CADrYLAiDiS1hLyfwARG7dtzVd4OLmN4R5-07fTTQpvZ54gMmWQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <9A043F3CF02CD34C8E74AC1594475C73F4B588DC@uxcn10-5.UoA.auckland.ac.nz>
 <CADrYLAg0ZHqG-gvYdBmOrnMfafkv96RFrcy29dKQrjrDHB-0+Q@mail.gmail.com>
 <9A043F3CF02CD34C8E74AC1594475C73F4B59632@uxcn10-5.UoA.auckland.ac.nz>
 <563ebfbb.33268c0a.d899e.ffffcbab@mx.google.com>
 <CADrYLAjdZhORXVodwt_EETwXsAd6eSVT8-PgqyRpaG2yUQYv5w@mail.gmail.com>
 <563eebdf.431a370a.afed.ffffd5ca@mx.google.com>
Message-ID: <563F06AB.2010208@openmailbox.org>

Bollocks to Lazy People.

In the UK, when someone learns to drive a car they take an average of 25
lessons because its not easy to drive a car safely and skillfully.
After they pass a relatively difficult theory and practical test they
appreciate that they are now only truly beginning to get to grips with
the skills required to drive well.

To learn to use GPG/PGP sufficiently to sign and encrypt mail isn't even
a fraction of the skill level or time required as learning to drive and
there's plenty of free guides on the internet.

So, the issue is one of motivation, not difficulty.

Can GPG be easier to use, I think so, is it too difficult to use by
ordinary people - no, they're just too fucking lazy and lack motivation.

You want people to use crypto, scare the fucking living daylights out of
them about how their governments and corporations are becoming way too
powerful and just maybe they'll become motivated enough to overcome
their laziness.

Otherwise, the only option is to make GPG transparent by getting the
email providers to automatically create key pairs and automatically
handle signing and encryption by integrating their mail services with
GPG behind the scenes.
However, if we wish to promote choice then this isn't a good way to go
about it.
This method would also have implications for privacy and anonymity too
as communications between the email client and mail servers may occur
when a user is not expecting it.


On 08/11/15 06:36, Juan wrote:
> On Sun, 8 Nov 2015 15:02:46 +1100
> Joseph Gentle <me at josephg.com> wrote:
> 
> 
>>>         LMAO
>>>
>>>         http://readwrite.com/2014/07/23/apple-ios-backdoor-acknowledgement-support-document
>>
>> Got anything more recent than July 2014? 
> 
> 	I don't, though I didn't bother checking. July 2014 isn't too
> 	ancient anyway. 
> 
> 
>> Apple has been claiming far
>> and wide that from iOS 8 even they cannot access the data stored on a
>> locked device without a password:
>> http://appleinsider.com/articles/14/09/17/apple-says-incapable-of-decrypting-user-data-with-ios-8-even-for-government-agencies
> 
> 	Oh, if they so then it must be true =) 
> 
> 
>>
>> All three APIs listed in that readwrite article require access to
>> services via USB, which require a device the phone trusts and (I
>> think) for the device to be unlocked. I would be quite surprised if it
>> turned out that apple really can decrypt data for the government on
>> locked devices. They've been quite public about this policy, and
>> they've claimed they can't access said data under oath. Its also a
>> fantastic strategic move for them to fight off android - given
>> google's business model it'll be impossible for android to follow
>> suit.
>>
>> I am about 90-95% confident that there aren't any intentional holes in
>> iOS through which apple can read data thats only stored on my device.
> 
> 	Well, I'm 100% confident that a company like apple is not to be
> 	trusted.
> 
> 	
>> (I recently switched from android to iOS for this reason.)
>>
> 
> 	Good luck. Out of the fire into the frying pan =P
> 
> 
>>>> than nearly a quarter century of
>>>> PGP has, because they've made it usable by the masses.
>>>>
>>>
>>>         and the proof for that claim is, where?
>>
>> It was very impressive for its time but what impact has PGP *actually*
>> made? You seem like a sufficiently paranoid human who knows about PGP,
>> knows what it does and you're technically capable of installing it and
>> using it. So tell me - how many encrypted emails do you send and
>> receive with PGP?
> 
> 	Very few. However, as far as I know, people who need to
> 	encrypt stuff that the government isn't supposed to read, say
> 	people buying and selling 'illegal' drugs, use p/gpg not
> 	iphones. 
> 
>  
>> I think PGP's legacy is that it started a conversation around crypto
>> and privacy. But as a *product* it was a complete failure. I mean, it
>> doesn't even protect metadata.
> 
> 	Well, it's a client-side encryption tool. Nobody can 'encrypt'
> 	the fact that he sent or received mail. PGP is not a mix
> 	network...
> 
> 	And does a company like apple which collects information about
> 	hundreds of millions of people protect 'metadata' better? 
> 
> 	Anyway, to expect the likes of apple to actually oppose the
> 	government (that is to say their partners) is naive at best,
> 	in my opinion. 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
>>
>> -J
>>
>>>
>>>> Peter.
>>>
> 

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From pgut001 at cs.auckland.ac.nz  Sun Nov  8 00:40:51 2015
From: pgut001 at cs.auckland.ac.nz (Peter Gutmann)
Date: Sun, 8 Nov 2015 08:40:51 +0000
Subject: [FORGED] Re: [FORGED] Re: UK To Ban Crypto In Devices, Email
 And More
In-Reply-To: <563F06AB.2010208@openmailbox.org>
References: <CAD2Ti29w4u9RMOt_gRvWe-vYo_So4R4XyfOYJcqEe_XzPGAL4A@mail.gmail.com>
 <E1ZtgAi-0000Gy-3v@elasmtp-banded.atl.sa.earthlink.net>
 <56391C22.7010101@openmailbox.org>
 <CADrYLAj=8Sd0yOxbppEp=qp8CiLQJfg4PHLY8QmiU=vuQB_uyg@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAOsGNSTC5yOVvSVgtMkzBUraGvtJzYoOrBsTNb_73q_XeG1ijQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <CADrYLAiDiS1hLyfwARG7dtzVd4OLmN4R5-07fTTQpvZ54gMmWQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <9A043F3CF02CD34C8E74AC1594475C73F4B588DC@uxcn10-5.UoA.auckland.ac.nz>
 <CADrYLAg0ZHqG-gvYdBmOrnMfafkv96RFrcy29dKQrjrDHB-0+Q@mail.gmail.com>
 <9A043F3CF02CD34C8E74AC1594475C73F4B59632@uxcn10-5.UoA.auckland.ac.nz>
 <563ebfbb.33268c0a.d899e.ffffcbab@mx.google.com>
 <CADrYLAjdZhORXVodwt_EETwXsAd6eSVT8-PgqyRpaG2yUQYv5w@mail.gmail.com>
 <563eebdf.431a370a.afed.ffffd5ca@mx.google.com>,
 <563F06AB.2010208@openmailbox.org>
Message-ID: <9A043F3CF02CD34C8E74AC1594475C73F4B59971@uxcn10-5.UoA.auckland.ac.nz>

oshwm <oshwm at openmailbox.org> writes:

>Can GPG be easier to use, I think so, is it too difficult to use by ordinary
>people - no, they're just too fucking lazy and lack motivation.

... and this is pretty much the poster child for why we have so much unusable
crypto today.

Peter.




From oshwm at openmailbox.org  Sun Nov  8 00:45:43 2015
From: oshwm at openmailbox.org (oshwm)
Date: Sun, 08 Nov 2015 08:45:43 +0000
Subject: [FORGED] Re: [FORGED] Re: UK To Ban Crypto In Devices, Email
 And More
In-Reply-To: <9A043F3CF02CD34C8E74AC1594475C73F4B59971@uxcn10-5.UoA.auckland.ac.nz>
References: <CAD2Ti29w4u9RMOt_gRvWe-vYo_So4R4XyfOYJcqEe_XzPGAL4A@mail.gmail.com>
 <E1ZtgAi-0000Gy-3v@elasmtp-banded.atl.sa.earthlink.net>
 <56391C22.7010101@openmailbox.org>
 <CADrYLAj=8Sd0yOxbppEp=qp8CiLQJfg4PHLY8QmiU=vuQB_uyg@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAOsGNSTC5yOVvSVgtMkzBUraGvtJzYoOrBsTNb_73q_XeG1ijQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <CADrYLAiDiS1hLyfwARG7dtzVd4OLmN4R5-07fTTQpvZ54gMmWQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <9A043F3CF02CD34C8E74AC1594475C73F4B588DC@uxcn10-5.UoA.auckland.ac.nz>
 <CADrYLAg0ZHqG-gvYdBmOrnMfafkv96RFrcy29dKQrjrDHB-0+Q@mail.gmail.com>
 <9A043F3CF02CD34C8E74AC1594475C73F4B59632@uxcn10-5.UoA.auckland.ac.nz>
 <563ebfbb.33268c0a.d899e.ffffcbab@mx.google.com>
 <CADrYLAjdZhORXVodwt_EETwXsAd6eSVT8-PgqyRpaG2yUQYv5w@mail.gmail.com>
 <563eebdf.431a370a.afed.ffffd5ca@mx.google.com>,
 <563F06AB.2010208@openmailbox.org>
 <9A043F3CF02CD34C8E74AC1594475C73F4B59971@uxcn10-5.UoA.auckland.ac.nz>
Message-ID: <563F0BB7.4090708@openmailbox.org>



On 08/11/15 08:40, Peter Gutmann wrote:
> oshwm <oshwm at openmailbox.org> writes:
> 
>> Can GPG be easier to use, I think so, is it too difficult to use by ordinary
>> people - no, they're just too fucking lazy and lack motivation.
> 
> ... and this is pretty much the poster child for why we have so much unusable
> crypto today.
> 

Or, why we have such a fucking retarded human race with the attention
span of a knat who expect everything to be given to them on a plate.
People have to stop being lazy and start taking an interest and
responsibility for what goes on in the world around them - your point of
view re-inforces the dumbing down of the population and the increase in
power of the Government and big Corps.

> Peter.
> 

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From Rayzer at riseup.net  Sun Nov  8 10:05:32 2015
From: Rayzer at riseup.net (Razer)
Date: Sun, 8 Nov 2015 10:05:32 -0800
Subject: [FORGED] Re: UK To Ban Crypto In Devices, Email And More
In-Reply-To: <CADrYLAj-5OD=in8KJVPp5i0M+yJoZcBWyMfmQdnfdhhEQqnq5Q@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAD2Ti29w4u9RMOt_gRvWe-vYo_So4R4XyfOYJcqEe_XzPGAL4A@mail.gmail.com>
 <E1ZtgAi-0000Gy-3v@elasmtp-banded.atl.sa.earthlink.net>
 <56391C22.7010101@openmailbox.org>
 <CADrYLAj=8Sd0yOxbppEp=qp8CiLQJfg4PHLY8QmiU=vuQB_uyg@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAOsGNSTC5yOVvSVgtMkzBUraGvtJzYoOrBsTNb_73q_XeG1ijQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <CADrYLAiDiS1hLyfwARG7dtzVd4OLmN4R5-07fTTQpvZ54gMmWQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <9A043F3CF02CD34C8E74AC1594475C73F4B588DC@uxcn10-5.UoA.auckland.ac.nz>
 <CADrYLAg0ZHqG-gvYdBmOrnMfafkv96RFrcy29dKQrjrDHB-0+Q@mail.gmail.com>
 <9A043F3CF02CD34C8E74AC1594475C73F4B59632@uxcn10-5.UoA.auckland.ac.nz>
 <CADrYLAj-5OD=in8KJVPp5i0M+yJoZcBWyMfmQdnfdhhEQqnq5Q@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <563F8EEC.9020100@riseup.net>

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From Rayzer at riseup.net  Sun Nov  8 10:25:13 2015
From: Rayzer at riseup.net (Razer)
Date: Sun, 8 Nov 2015 10:25:13 -0800
Subject: [Decrypted] Re: UK To Ban Crypto In Devices, Email And More
In-Reply-To: <CADrYLAj-5OD=in8KJVPp5i0M+yJoZcBWyMfmQdnfdhhEQqnq5Q@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAD2Ti29w4u9RMOt_gRvWe-vYo_So4R4XyfOYJcqEe_XzPGAL4A@mail.gmail.com>
 <E1ZtgAi-0000Gy-3v@elasmtp-banded.atl.sa.earthlink.net>
 <56391C22.7010101@openmailbox.org>
 <CADrYLAj=8Sd0yOxbppEp=qp8CiLQJfg4PHLY8QmiU=vuQB_uyg@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAOsGNSTC5yOVvSVgtMkzBUraGvtJzYoOrBsTNb_73q_XeG1ijQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <CADrYLAiDiS1hLyfwARG7dtzVd4OLmN4R5-07fTTQpvZ54gMmWQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <9A043F3CF02CD34C8E74AC1594475C73F4B588DC@uxcn10-5.UoA.auckland.ac.nz>
 <CADrYLAg0ZHqG-gvYdBmOrnMfafkv96RFrcy29dKQrjrDHB-0+Q@mail.gmail.com>
 <9A043F3CF02CD34C8E74AC1594475C73F4B59632@uxcn10-5.UoA.auckland.ac.nz>
 <CADrYLAj-5OD=in8KJVPp5i0M+yJoZcBWyMfmQdnfdhhEQqnq5Q@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <563F9389.7040802@riseup.net>



On 11/07/2015 06:54 PM, Joseph Gentle wrote:
> And yet even most email on this list isn't encrypted.

Why would I want to do that? It sort of defeats the purpose of a public
listserv.

RR

> On Sun, Nov 8, 2015 at 1:10 PM, Peter Gutmann <pgut001 at cs.auckland.ac.nz> wrote:
>> Joseph Gentle <me at josephg.com> writes:
>>
>>> Industry grade crypto has existed for years, but things like PGP being simply
>>> *inconvenient* has resulted in it having virtually no adoption. The big threat
>>> to pervasive surveillance isn't pgp, its companies like apple and whatsapp
>>> bringing that technology to the masses.
>> That's a good point actually.  In my enormous to-read pile I've got "Why
>> Johnny Still Can't Encrypt", and that's from fifteen years after the original
>> paper on PGP's unusability was published.  It's scary to think that companies
>> like Apple have done more to protect us from intrusive government surveillance
>> than nearly a quarter century of PGP has, because they've made it usable by
>> the masses.
>>
>> Peter.
> Exactly.
>
> Snowden: “Encryption works. Properly implemented strong crypto systems
> are one of the few things that you can rely on.". And yet even most
> email on this list isn't encrypted.
>
> The cat and mouse game of security is fun and technically challenging.
> But if you want to actually stop global attackers like the NSA, the
> problem isn't that we don't have good enough crypto. Its that barely
> anybody in our community also knows how to make pleasant, usable
> software. We need more software like Signal (TextSecure). Not because
> of its rad ratcheting OTR, but because I can get my partners to use it
> without having to spend an hour explaining asymmetric key cryptography
> first.
>
> -J




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From Rayzer at riseup.net  Sun Nov  8 11:56:46 2015
From: Rayzer at riseup.net (Razer)
Date: Sun, 8 Nov 2015 11:56:46 -0800
Subject: [FORGED] Re: [FORGED] Re: UK To Ban Crypto In Devices, Email And
 More
In-Reply-To: <563FA3A8.2090501@openmailbox.org>
References: <CAD2Ti29w4u9RMOt_gRvWe-vYo_So4R4XyfOYJcqEe_XzPGAL4A@mail.gmail.com>
 <56391C22.7010101@openmailbox.org>
 <CADrYLAj=8Sd0yOxbppEp=qp8CiLQJfg4PHLY8QmiU=vuQB_uyg@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAOsGNSTC5yOVvSVgtMkzBUraGvtJzYoOrBsTNb_73q_XeG1ijQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <CADrYLAiDiS1hLyfwARG7dtzVd4OLmN4R5-07fTTQpvZ54gMmWQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <9A043F3CF02CD34C8E74AC1594475C73F4B588DC@uxcn10-5.UoA.auckland.ac.nz>
 <CADrYLAg0ZHqG-gvYdBmOrnMfafkv96RFrcy29dKQrjrDHB-0+Q@mail.gmail.com>
 <9A043F3CF02CD34C8E74AC1594475C73F4B59632@uxcn10-5.UoA.auckland.ac.nz>
 <563ebfbb.33268c0a.d899e.ffffcbab@mx.google.com>
 <CADrYLAjdZhORXVodwt_EETwXsAd6eSVT8-PgqyRpaG2yUQYv5w@mail.gmail.com>
 <563eebdf.431a370a.afed.ffffd5ca@mx.google.com>
 <563F06AB.2010208@openmailbox.org>
 <9A043F3CF02CD34C8E74AC1594475C73F4B59971@uxcn10-5.UoA.auckland.ac.nz>
 <563F0BB7.4090708@openmailbox.org>
 <CADrYLAiWmoZSWhzs4mOonG++NS3t1hMBjArWKf8r7YJg8vmLOA@mail.gmail.com>
 <563F9B6A.3030603@openmailbox.org> <563FA3A8.2090501@openmailbox.org>
Message-ID: <563FA8FE.80603@riseup.net>



On 11/08/2015 11:34 AM, oshwm wrote:
> So...
>
> Click on the little options button (three lines) at the top right of
> Thunderbird.
> Hover over Enigmail and click on Key Management.
> A list of local copies of keys will appear, including my own private ones.
> I double click on my key to show the details about it.
> This includes the creation date of 23/07/15.
>
> Well, that was quite simple, its almost as if someone created a not
> perfect but workable User Interface called Enigmail - it even has a
> Wizard for creating new keys and configuring Thunderbird.
>
> It's gets more tricky if you have multiple email accounts in Thunderbird
> but not prohibitively so.
>
> It's not created by Apple so the shiny things fanboi's will hate it.
>
> That seems easy enough though that even a Windows user could manage it.
>
> The tough bit is understanding crypto but with analogies about keys and
> shit then most people only need a superficial understanding of how to
> USE GPG rather than Prime Numbery stuff - they should be able to cope.
>
>


I include my public key as a signature. I DO NOT give out the password
to decode messages sent under that sig, nor would I find it efficacious
to do so with a separate encrypt-for-a-PUBLIC-list key.

It makes no sense whatsoever to encrypt messages to a public listserv.

RR

> On 08/11/15 18:58, oshwm wrote:
>>
>> On 08/11/15 13:41, Joseph Gentle wrote:
>>> On Sun, Nov 8, 2015 at 7:45 PM, oshwm <oshwm at openmailbox.org> wrote:
>>>> On 08/11/15 08:40, Peter Gutmann wrote:
>>>>> oshwm <oshwm at openmailbox.org> writes:
>>>>>
>>>>>> Can GPG be easier to use, I think so, is it too difficult to use by ordinary
>>>>>> people - no, they're just too fucking lazy and lack motivation.
>>>>> ... and this is pretty much the poster child for why we have so much unusable
>>>>> crypto today.
>>>>>
>>>> Or, why we have such a fucking retarded human race with the attention
>>>> span of a knat who expect everything to be given to them on a plate.
>>>> People have to stop being lazy and start taking an interest and
>>>> responsibility for what goes on in the world around them - your point of
>>>> view re-inforces the dumbing down of the population and the increase in
>>>> power of the Government and big Corps.
>>> Even if thats all true, its still also true that nobody is using PGP.
>>> Its easier to make a slick UI than convince people to do work. Is it
>>> so much to ask that people who make software try to make life easy for
>>> their users?
>>>
>> Slick UI would be cool, just a shame that's being used as an excuse by
>> ppl who can't be arsed to do a bit of work.
>> What's the excuse once it has a nice UI?
>>
>> As for nobody is using PGP, I think that may be a little overstated -
>> what you mean is nobody who doesn't give a fuck about privacy is using it.
>>
>>> For all your talk of doing hard work oshwm, it looks like you only
>>> created that PGP key yesterday:
>>> $ gpg --list-packets signature.asc
>>> hashed subpkt 2 len 4 (sig created 2015-11-08) [...]
>> except the key has been around for quite some time, I did re-sync with
>> the sks servers yesterday.
>>
>>> And as far as I can tell it hasn't been signed by anyone. At least I
>>> think so - after 15 minutes fighting with gpg I still can't find your
>>> actual key and I ran out of care.
>>>
>> No, it hasn't been signed by anyone as I don't have any friends in real
>> life who give two shits about security as I mix with non-techies offline.
>> This is not a difficulty issue, I can't even begin to talk about
>> encryption with them without them changing the issue to great subjects
>> such as what was on telly last night.
>>
>>> ... Which leads me into my second point, which is that here in 2015
>>> PGP is a terrible technical solution. It doesn't encrypt metadata
>>> (which is a non-starter these days - who you communicate with is some
>>> of the *most* valuable personal data for the NSA). It also leaks
>>> information about who signed your key. That means either:
>>>
>> Oh yeh, some bright spark came up with STARTTLS for encrypting comms
>> with mail servers but made it optional, not a GPG issue.
>> However, the metadata issue a big problem for everyone who connects to a
>> server that isn't owned by them and I suspect really requires a new mail
>> protocol to resolve.
>>
>>> - Your key gets signed by your friends, so now your friend network public
>>> or
>>> - Emails with PGP are provably from you, in a way that can be traced
>>> back to physically witnessed government ID.
>>>
>> 1) friend network - can't be avoided if you want a system for vouching
>> for email sender authenticity.
>> 2) That's part of what PGP is about - sender authenticity. My PGP is not
>> attached to a Gov Issued ID.
>>
>>> ... Or both! Personally I would rather the possibility of forgery than
>>> either of those outcomes.
>>>
>>> -J
>>>
>>


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From zen at freedbms.net  Sun Nov  8 04:58:07 2015
From: zen at freedbms.net (Zenaan Harkness)
Date: Sun, 8 Nov 2015 12:58:07 +0000
Subject: cry-bullies
Message-ID: <CAOsGNSRP_w-0OL5FweRk9QJ5arq0A9iZHfWyVXJtDgqsED2FUQ@mail.gmail.com>

Sometimes lack of terminology is disempowering - that which is
unspoken ("un-named") dominating a conversation online or offline.

For anyone appreciative of succinct terminology, perhaps "cry-bully"
might be useful in certain conversations you have. Courtesy Daniel
Greenfield.

SJW = social justice warrior

Z

---
http://www.frontpagemag.com/point/260687/islam-social-justice-warriors-and-cry-bully-daniel-greenfield

Islam, Social Justice Warriors and the Cry-Bully
I don't know if Cry-Bullies is the perfect word, but it captures the
dynamic perfectly.
November 7, 2015
Daniel Greenfield

This phenomenon of the abuser-victim is ridiculously widespread these
days. Every Social Justice Warrior that organizes a hate campaign
quickly rushes to friendly media outlets to whine about harassment and
their heroic stand against people doing to them what they do to
others. I'm not sure if Cry-Bully is the best name for it, but I
haven't come up with anything better for it.

That's Julie Burchill's label at the Spectator. I've stripped out most
of the UK pop culture references to focus on the point.

    This is the age of the Cry-Bully, a hideous hybrid of victim and
victor, weeper and walloper. They are everywhere, these duplicit
Pushmi-Pullyus of the personal and the political...

    In the 1970s, there was a big difference between bullies and cry-babies.

     Islamism is the ultimate Cry-Bully cause; on one hand stamping
around murdering anyone who doesn’ t agree with you, on the other hand
yelling ‘ISLAMOPHOBIA’ in lieu of having a real adult debate about the
merits of your case. Their ‘helpline’ is even called Tell Mama –
bless. The British-born Islamist recently sentenced to twelve years
had no problem posing with severed heads (‘Heads, kaffirs,
disgusting’) and asking friends back home to send him condoms which he
planned to use raping women captured as ‘war booty’ but then claimed
to be having nightmares and suffering from depression in order to
escape jail.

I would argue that the same brand of selfishness and dehumanization
that leads to abusive behavior also leads to victimhood.

We've known this about criminals for some time now. They're all
victims. No matter what horrible things they did, someone else always
drove them to it. They're self-centered enough not to care about
anyone else while being exquisitely attuned to their own feelings. As
I wrote a few weeks ago...

    The one thing that Muslim murderers excel at is playing the
victim. Someone always “made” Mohammed do it. Someone got him so
frustrated and upset that he had no choice but to rape and kill.

    There’s a term for the kind of people who think like this;
criminals. There’s a term for the kind of people who defend them;
leftists.

    The Muslim case for justice can be found in the books of a million
police departments where all the stories begin with the criminal
feeling sorry for himself and end in hospitals and morgues. The story
always begins with, “I wanted what was coming to me” or “She shouldn’t
have made me angry.”

But this isn't limited to Muslims. You can see it in the Black Lives
Matter tantrums. Or the anti-Gamergate crowd. They're the victims and
it's always someone else's fault.

The entire passive aggressive narrative of safe spaces (if you don't
censor people who disagree with us, we're the victims) turns abusers
into victims, censors into heroes defending their mental health from
dissenting views and the victim-victor paradigm is constantly flipping
from one to the other.

One moment the SJW hero is doing an end zone dance over having
defeated the latest cultural enemy. The next moment they're crying
over mean stuff said to them on Twitter. They're narcissistic and
insecure. They want to be treated as helpless heroes, victims of some
terrible social disease (not that kind) that leaves them always out of
power and yet always winning. Their sensitivities have to be
accommodated and censorship is their trophy. They're all about
inclusiveness for special people like them, while driving out and
shutting up anyone who disagrees with them.

I don't know if Cry-Bullies is the perfect word, but it captures the
dynamic perfectly.




From zen at freedbms.net  Sun Nov  8 05:04:59 2015
From: zen at freedbms.net (Zenaan Harkness)
Date: Sun, 8 Nov 2015 13:04:59 +0000
Subject: a possible insight into motivating totalitarianism
Message-ID: <CAOsGNSThfu_7xW4x6jSu7JrXBTaqOowatfYVR0zsxqyAynXgnA@mail.gmail.com>

Not to be confused with "failure to exercise public duty of care and
hiding of known contraindicating data."
Z


---
http://www.frontpagemag.com/point/260713/new-yorks-radical-left-wing-attorney-general-plots-daniel-greenfield

New York's Radical Left-Wing Attorney General Plots to Criminalize
Opposing the Left
November 8, 2015
Daniel Greenfield

Here's a little reminder for anyone who doesn't believe that what the
left really wants is a totalitarian state in which opposition to its
agenda is a crime.

New York's Attorney General Eric Schneiderman is extreme even by
left-wing standards. He's a radical who ran by promising that violent
racist thug Al Sharpton would have an "annex" in Albany if he won.

Now Schneiderman and a few left-wing congressmembers have come up with
a great idea. Charge Exxon with securities fraud for not "disclosing"
the risks of Global Warming.

Whether on not any charges happen, this is a foot in the door for an
agenda list that goes well beyond Global Warming.

After energy companies that aren't paying protection money to Al Gore,
gun manufacturers can be hit with charges for not "disclosing the
risks" of gun violence. Private prisons can be hit for not disclosing
the risks of failing to back sentencing reforms. Educational companies
can be hit with charges for not disclosing the risks of not adopting
Common Core.

Basically any company that disagrees with a left-wing policy can be
hit with civil and criminal charges. It helps if the company, like
Exxon, at one point employed kooks who claimed the sky was falling.
But that just makes the case easier. If the executives disagree with a
left-wing policy, it's securities fraud.

Under this standard, it becomes child's play to cut off conservative
organization from any corporate funding. Furthermore, conservative
organizations would be muzzled by extension. Funding organizations and
people that dissent from the left would be "fraud". Because that is
what this is really about.

Global Warming is the testbed for making leftist ideology mandatory.
Manufacture a fake consensus, then use the law to make it mandatory.

Then there can be a pseudo-scientific consensus on a variety of
issues, such as the need for higher taxes, and a crackdown on anyone
who disagrees.

Since there's money in pursuing charges like this, and since the best
way to get the left off your back is to give their political allies
money, this is robbery for tyranny. And that's how the left does
business.

This is where the left has always been headed. This is a totalitarian movement




From me at josephg.com  Sat Nov  7 18:54:36 2015
From: me at josephg.com (Joseph Gentle)
Date: Sun, 8 Nov 2015 13:54:36 +1100
Subject: [FORGED] Re: UK To Ban Crypto In Devices, Email And More
In-Reply-To: <9A043F3CF02CD34C8E74AC1594475C73F4B59632@uxcn10-5.UoA.auckland.ac.nz>
References: <CAD2Ti29w4u9RMOt_gRvWe-vYo_So4R4XyfOYJcqEe_XzPGAL4A@mail.gmail.com>
 <E1ZtgAi-0000Gy-3v@elasmtp-banded.atl.sa.earthlink.net>
 <56391C22.7010101@openmailbox.org>
 <CADrYLAj=8Sd0yOxbppEp=qp8CiLQJfg4PHLY8QmiU=vuQB_uyg@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAOsGNSTC5yOVvSVgtMkzBUraGvtJzYoOrBsTNb_73q_XeG1ijQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <CADrYLAiDiS1hLyfwARG7dtzVd4OLmN4R5-07fTTQpvZ54gMmWQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <9A043F3CF02CD34C8E74AC1594475C73F4B588DC@uxcn10-5.UoA.auckland.ac.nz>
 <CADrYLAg0ZHqG-gvYdBmOrnMfafkv96RFrcy29dKQrjrDHB-0+Q@mail.gmail.com>
 <9A043F3CF02CD34C8E74AC1594475C73F4B59632@uxcn10-5.UoA.auckland.ac.nz>
Message-ID: <CADrYLAj-5OD=in8KJVPp5i0M+yJoZcBWyMfmQdnfdhhEQqnq5Q@mail.gmail.com>

On Sun, Nov 8, 2015 at 1:10 PM, Peter Gutmann <pgut001 at cs.auckland.ac.nz> wrote:
> Joseph Gentle <me at josephg.com> writes:
>
>>Industry grade crypto has existed for years, but things like PGP being simply
>>*inconvenient* has resulted in it having virtually no adoption. The big threat
>>to pervasive surveillance isn't pgp, its companies like apple and whatsapp
>>bringing that technology to the masses.
>
> That's a good point actually.  In my enormous to-read pile I've got "Why
> Johnny Still Can't Encrypt", and that's from fifteen years after the original
> paper on PGP's unusability was published.  It's scary to think that companies
> like Apple have done more to protect us from intrusive government surveillance
> than nearly a quarter century of PGP has, because they've made it usable by
> the masses.
>
> Peter.


Exactly.

Snowden: “Encryption works. Properly implemented strong crypto systems
are one of the few things that you can rely on.". And yet even most
email on this list isn't encrypted.

The cat and mouse game of security is fun and technically challenging.
But if you want to actually stop global attackers like the NSA, the
problem isn't that we don't have good enough crypto. Its that barely
anybody in our community also knows how to make pleasant, usable
software. We need more software like Signal (TextSecure). Not because
of its rad ratcheting OTR, but because I can get my partners to use it
without having to spend an hour explaining asymmetric key cryptography
first.

-J




From me at josephg.com  Sat Nov  7 20:02:46 2015
From: me at josephg.com (Joseph Gentle)
Date: Sun, 8 Nov 2015 15:02:46 +1100
Subject: [FORGED] Re: UK To Ban Crypto In Devices, Email And More
In-Reply-To: <563ebfbb.33268c0a.d899e.ffffcbab@mx.google.com>
References: <CAD2Ti29w4u9RMOt_gRvWe-vYo_So4R4XyfOYJcqEe_XzPGAL4A@mail.gmail.com>
 <E1ZtgAi-0000Gy-3v@elasmtp-banded.atl.sa.earthlink.net>
 <56391C22.7010101@openmailbox.org>
 <CADrYLAj=8Sd0yOxbppEp=qp8CiLQJfg4PHLY8QmiU=vuQB_uyg@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAOsGNSTC5yOVvSVgtMkzBUraGvtJzYoOrBsTNb_73q_XeG1ijQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <CADrYLAiDiS1hLyfwARG7dtzVd4OLmN4R5-07fTTQpvZ54gMmWQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <9A043F3CF02CD34C8E74AC1594475C73F4B588DC@uxcn10-5.UoA.auckland.ac.nz>
 <CADrYLAg0ZHqG-gvYdBmOrnMfafkv96RFrcy29dKQrjrDHB-0+Q@mail.gmail.com>
 <9A043F3CF02CD34C8E74AC1594475C73F4B59632@uxcn10-5.UoA.auckland.ac.nz>
 <563ebfbb.33268c0a.d899e.ffffcbab@mx.google.com>
Message-ID: <CADrYLAjdZhORXVodwt_EETwXsAd6eSVT8-PgqyRpaG2yUQYv5w@mail.gmail.com>

On Sun, Nov 8, 2015 at 2:28 PM, Juan <juan.g71 at gmail.com> wrote:
> On Sun, 8 Nov 2015 02:10:19 +0000
> Peter Gutmann <pgut001 at cs.auckland.ac.nz> wrote:
>
>> Joseph Gentle <me at josephg.com> writes:
>>
>> >Industry grade crypto has existed for years, but things like PGP
>> >being simply *inconvenient* has resulted in it having virtually no
>> >adoption. The big threat to pervasive surveillance isn't pgp, its
>> >companies like apple and whatsapp bringing that technology to the
>> >masses.
>>
>> That's a good point actually.  In my enormous to-read pile I've got
>> "Why Johnny Still Can't Encrypt", and that's from fifteen years after
>> the original paper on PGP's unusability was published.  It's scary to
>> think that companies like Apple have done more to protect us from
>> intrusive government surveillance
>
>
>         LMAO
>
>         http://readwrite.com/2014/07/23/apple-ios-backdoor-acknowledgement-support-document

Got anything more recent than July 2014? Apple has been claiming far
and wide that from iOS 8 even they cannot access the data stored on a
locked device without a password:
http://appleinsider.com/articles/14/09/17/apple-says-incapable-of-decrypting-user-data-with-ios-8-even-for-government-agencies

All three APIs listed in that readwrite article require access to
services via USB, which require a device the phone trusts and (I
think) for the device to be unlocked. I would be quite surprised if it
turned out that apple really can decrypt data for the government on
locked devices. They've been quite public about this policy, and
they've claimed they can't access said data under oath. Its also a
fantastic strategic move for them to fight off android - given
google's business model it'll be impossible for android to follow
suit.

I am about 90-95% confident that there aren't any intentional holes in
iOS through which apple can read data thats only stored on my device.
(I recently switched from android to iOS for this reason.)

>> than nearly a quarter century of
>> PGP has, because they've made it usable by the masses.
>>
>
>         and the proof for that claim is, where?

It was very impressive for its time but what impact has PGP *actually*
made? You seem like a sufficiently paranoid human who knows about PGP,
knows what it does and you're technically capable of installing it and
using it. So tell me - how many encrypted emails do you send and
receive with PGP?

I think PGP's legacy is that it started a conversation around crypto
and privacy. But as a *product* it was a complete failure. I mean, it
doesn't even protect metadata.

-J

>
>> Peter.
>




From juan.g71 at gmail.com  Sun Nov  8 11:36:03 2015
From: juan.g71 at gmail.com (Juan)
Date: Sun, 8 Nov 2015 16:36:03 -0300
Subject: [FORGED] Re: [FORGED] Re: UK To Ban Crypto In Devices, Email
 And More
In-Reply-To: <563F9B6A.3030603@openmailbox.org>
References: <CAD2Ti29w4u9RMOt_gRvWe-vYo_So4R4XyfOYJcqEe_XzPGAL4A@mail.gmail.com>
 <56391C22.7010101@openmailbox.org>
 <CADrYLAj=8Sd0yOxbppEp=qp8CiLQJfg4PHLY8QmiU=vuQB_uyg@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAOsGNSTC5yOVvSVgtMkzBUraGvtJzYoOrBsTNb_73q_XeG1ijQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <CADrYLAiDiS1hLyfwARG7dtzVd4OLmN4R5-07fTTQpvZ54gMmWQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <9A043F3CF02CD34C8E74AC1594475C73F4B588DC@uxcn10-5.UoA.auckland.ac.nz>
 <CADrYLAg0ZHqG-gvYdBmOrnMfafkv96RFrcy29dKQrjrDHB-0+Q@mail.gmail.com>
 <9A043F3CF02CD34C8E74AC1594475C73F4B59632@uxcn10-5.UoA.auckland.ac.nz>
 <563ebfbb.33268c0a.d899e.ffffcbab@mx.google.com>
 <CADrYLAjdZhORXVodwt_EETwXsAd6eSVT8-PgqyRpaG2yUQYv5w@mail.gmail.com>
 <563eebdf.431a370a.afed.ffffd5ca@mx.google.com>
 <563F06AB.2010208@openmailbox.org>
 <9A043F3CF02CD34C8E74AC1594475C73F4B59971@uxcn10-5.UoA.auckland.ac.nz>
 <563F0BB7.4090708@openmailbox.org>
 <CADrYLAiWmoZSWhzs4mOonG++NS3t1hMBjArWKf8r7YJg8vmLOA@mail.gmail.com>
 <563F9B6A.3030603@openmailbox.org>
Message-ID: <563fa281.881e8c0a.7a31b.0c20@mx.google.com>

On Sun, 08 Nov 2015 18:58:50 +0000
oshwm <oshwm at openmailbox.org> wrote:

> 
> > ... Which leads me into my second point, which is that here in 2015
> > PGP is a terrible technical solution. It doesn't encrypt metadata
> > (which is a non-starter these days - who you communicate with is
> > some of the *most* valuable personal data for the NSA). It also
> > leaks information about who signed your key. That means either:
> > 
> 
> Oh yeh, some bright spark came up with STARTTLS for encrypting comms
> with mail servers but made it optional, not a GPG issue.
> However, the metadata issue a big problem for everyone who connects
> to a server that isn't owned by them and I suspect really requires a
> new mail protocol to resolve.


	Looks like Joseph isn't putting too much thought in his
	replies. 

	There's obviously no way for email encryption to hide the so
	called metadata. You'd need some kind of mix network to do
	that. Complaining that pgpg doesn't encrypt the metadata is
	misguided.

	Also, his remark about this *public* list not being encrypted
	is...puzzling...at best.







From oshwm at openmailbox.org  Sun Nov  8 10:58:50 2015
From: oshwm at openmailbox.org (oshwm)
Date: Sun, 08 Nov 2015 18:58:50 +0000
Subject: [FORGED] Re: [FORGED] Re: UK To Ban Crypto In Devices, Email
 And More
In-Reply-To: <CADrYLAiWmoZSWhzs4mOonG++NS3t1hMBjArWKf8r7YJg8vmLOA@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAD2Ti29w4u9RMOt_gRvWe-vYo_So4R4XyfOYJcqEe_XzPGAL4A@mail.gmail.com>
 <E1ZtgAi-0000Gy-3v@elasmtp-banded.atl.sa.earthlink.net>
 <56391C22.7010101@openmailbox.org>
 <CADrYLAj=8Sd0yOxbppEp=qp8CiLQJfg4PHLY8QmiU=vuQB_uyg@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAOsGNSTC5yOVvSVgtMkzBUraGvtJzYoOrBsTNb_73q_XeG1ijQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <CADrYLAiDiS1hLyfwARG7dtzVd4OLmN4R5-07fTTQpvZ54gMmWQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <9A043F3CF02CD34C8E74AC1594475C73F4B588DC@uxcn10-5.UoA.auckland.ac.nz>
 <CADrYLAg0ZHqG-gvYdBmOrnMfafkv96RFrcy29dKQrjrDHB-0+Q@mail.gmail.com>
 <9A043F3CF02CD34C8E74AC1594475C73F4B59632@uxcn10-5.UoA.auckland.ac.nz>
 <563ebfbb.33268c0a.d899e.ffffcbab@mx.google.com>
 <CADrYLAjdZhORXVodwt_EETwXsAd6eSVT8-PgqyRpaG2yUQYv5w@mail.gmail.com>
 <563eebdf.431a370a.afed.ffffd5ca@mx.google.com>
 <563F06AB.2010208@openmailbox.org>
 <9A043F3CF02CD34C8E74AC1594475C73F4B59971@uxcn10-5.UoA.auckland.ac.nz>
 <563F0BB7.4090708@openmailbox.org>
 <CADrYLAiWmoZSWhzs4mOonG++NS3t1hMBjArWKf8r7YJg8vmLOA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <563F9B6A.3030603@openmailbox.org>



On 08/11/15 13:41, Joseph Gentle wrote:
> On Sun, Nov 8, 2015 at 7:45 PM, oshwm <oshwm at openmailbox.org> wrote:
>> On 08/11/15 08:40, Peter Gutmann wrote:
>>> oshwm <oshwm at openmailbox.org> writes:
>>>
>>>> Can GPG be easier to use, I think so, is it too difficult to use by ordinary
>>>> people - no, they're just too fucking lazy and lack motivation.
>>>
>>> ... and this is pretty much the poster child for why we have so much unusable
>>> crypto today.
>>>
>>
>> Or, why we have such a fucking retarded human race with the attention
>> span of a knat who expect everything to be given to them on a plate.
>> People have to stop being lazy and start taking an interest and
>> responsibility for what goes on in the world around them - your point of
>> view re-inforces the dumbing down of the population and the increase in
>> power of the Government and big Corps.
> 
> Even if thats all true, its still also true that nobody is using PGP.
> Its easier to make a slick UI than convince people to do work. Is it
> so much to ask that people who make software try to make life easy for
> their users?
> 

Slick UI would be cool, just a shame that's being used as an excuse by
ppl who can't be arsed to do a bit of work.
What's the excuse once it has a nice UI?

As for nobody is using PGP, I think that may be a little overstated -
what you mean is nobody who doesn't give a fuck about privacy is using it.

> For all your talk of doing hard work oshwm, it looks like you only
> created that PGP key yesterday:
> $ gpg --list-packets signature.asc
> hashed subpkt 2 len 4 (sig created 2015-11-08) [...]

except the key has been around for quite some time, I did re-sync with
the sks servers yesterday.

> 
> And as far as I can tell it hasn't been signed by anyone. At least I
> think so - after 15 minutes fighting with gpg I still can't find your
> actual key and I ran out of care.
> 

No, it hasn't been signed by anyone as I don't have any friends in real
life who give two shits about security as I mix with non-techies offline.
This is not a difficulty issue, I can't even begin to talk about
encryption with them without them changing the issue to great subjects
such as what was on telly last night.

> ... Which leads me into my second point, which is that here in 2015
> PGP is a terrible technical solution. It doesn't encrypt metadata
> (which is a non-starter these days - who you communicate with is some
> of the *most* valuable personal data for the NSA). It also leaks
> information about who signed your key. That means either:
> 

Oh yeh, some bright spark came up with STARTTLS for encrypting comms
with mail servers but made it optional, not a GPG issue.
However, the metadata issue a big problem for everyone who connects to a
server that isn't owned by them and I suspect really requires a new mail
protocol to resolve.

> - Your key gets signed by your friends, so now your friend network public
> or
> - Emails with PGP are provably from you, in a way that can be traced
> back to physically witnessed government ID.
> 

1) friend network - can't be avoided if you want a system for vouching
for email sender authenticity.
2) That's part of what PGP is about - sender authenticity. My PGP is not
attached to a Gov Issued ID.

> ... Or both! Personally I would rather the possibility of forgery than
> either of those outcomes.
> 
> -J
> 


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From jdb10987 at yahoo.com  Sun Nov  8 11:13:55 2015
From: jdb10987 at yahoo.com (jim bell)
Date: Sun, 8 Nov 2015 19:13:55 +0000 (UTC)
Subject: [Decrypted] Re: UK To Ban Crypto In Devices, Email And More
In-Reply-To: <563F9389.7040802@riseup.net>
References: <563F9389.7040802@riseup.net>
Message-ID: <269749894.1678408.1447010035514.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com>

By now, cell phones ought to have an end-to-end encryption app available.  Why not?  How many people use smart phones?  Probably half of the population.  Is there a standard format of encryption available?  If such encryption is to take off, there ought to be one target format, so that users using multiple programs can talk to each other.  Is that already defined?                Jim Bell
  
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From oshwm at openmailbox.org  Sun Nov  8 11:34:00 2015
From: oshwm at openmailbox.org (oshwm)
Date: Sun, 08 Nov 2015 19:34:00 +0000
Subject: [FORGED] Re: [FORGED] Re: UK To Ban Crypto In Devices, Email
 And More
In-Reply-To: <563F9B6A.3030603@openmailbox.org>
References: <CAD2Ti29w4u9RMOt_gRvWe-vYo_So4R4XyfOYJcqEe_XzPGAL4A@mail.gmail.com>
 <56391C22.7010101@openmailbox.org>
 <CADrYLAj=8Sd0yOxbppEp=qp8CiLQJfg4PHLY8QmiU=vuQB_uyg@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAOsGNSTC5yOVvSVgtMkzBUraGvtJzYoOrBsTNb_73q_XeG1ijQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <CADrYLAiDiS1hLyfwARG7dtzVd4OLmN4R5-07fTTQpvZ54gMmWQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <9A043F3CF02CD34C8E74AC1594475C73F4B588DC@uxcn10-5.UoA.auckland.ac.nz>
 <CADrYLAg0ZHqG-gvYdBmOrnMfafkv96RFrcy29dKQrjrDHB-0+Q@mail.gmail.com>
 <9A043F3CF02CD34C8E74AC1594475C73F4B59632@uxcn10-5.UoA.auckland.ac.nz>
 <563ebfbb.33268c0a.d899e.ffffcbab@mx.google.com>
 <CADrYLAjdZhORXVodwt_EETwXsAd6eSVT8-PgqyRpaG2yUQYv5w@mail.gmail.com>
 <563eebdf.431a370a.afed.ffffd5ca@mx.google.com>
 <563F06AB.2010208@openmailbox.org>
 <9A043F3CF02CD34C8E74AC1594475C73F4B59971@uxcn10-5.UoA.auckland.ac.nz>
 <563F0BB7.4090708@openmailbox.org>
 <CADrYLAiWmoZSWhzs4mOonG++NS3t1hMBjArWKf8r7YJg8vmLOA@mail.gmail.com>
 <563F9B6A.3030603@openmailbox.org>
Message-ID: <563FA3A8.2090501@openmailbox.org>

So...

Click on the little options button (three lines) at the top right of
Thunderbird.
Hover over Enigmail and click on Key Management.
A list of local copies of keys will appear, including my own private ones.
I double click on my key to show the details about it.
This includes the creation date of 23/07/15.

Well, that was quite simple, its almost as if someone created a not
perfect but workable User Interface called Enigmail - it even has a
Wizard for creating new keys and configuring Thunderbird.

It's gets more tricky if you have multiple email accounts in Thunderbird
but not prohibitively so.

It's not created by Apple so the shiny things fanboi's will hate it.

That seems easy enough though that even a Windows user could manage it.

The tough bit is understanding crypto but with analogies about keys and
shit then most people only need a superficial understanding of how to
USE GPG rather than Prime Numbery stuff - they should be able to cope.



On 08/11/15 18:58, oshwm wrote:
> 
> 
> On 08/11/15 13:41, Joseph Gentle wrote:
>> On Sun, Nov 8, 2015 at 7:45 PM, oshwm <oshwm at openmailbox.org> wrote:
>>> On 08/11/15 08:40, Peter Gutmann wrote:
>>>> oshwm <oshwm at openmailbox.org> writes:
>>>>
>>>>> Can GPG be easier to use, I think so, is it too difficult to use by ordinary
>>>>> people - no, they're just too fucking lazy and lack motivation.
>>>>
>>>> ... and this is pretty much the poster child for why we have so much unusable
>>>> crypto today.
>>>>
>>>
>>> Or, why we have such a fucking retarded human race with the attention
>>> span of a knat who expect everything to be given to them on a plate.
>>> People have to stop being lazy and start taking an interest and
>>> responsibility for what goes on in the world around them - your point of
>>> view re-inforces the dumbing down of the population and the increase in
>>> power of the Government and big Corps.
>>
>> Even if thats all true, its still also true that nobody is using PGP.
>> Its easier to make a slick UI than convince people to do work. Is it
>> so much to ask that people who make software try to make life easy for
>> their users?
>>
> 
> Slick UI would be cool, just a shame that's being used as an excuse by
> ppl who can't be arsed to do a bit of work.
> What's the excuse once it has a nice UI?
> 
> As for nobody is using PGP, I think that may be a little overstated -
> what you mean is nobody who doesn't give a fuck about privacy is using it.
> 
>> For all your talk of doing hard work oshwm, it looks like you only
>> created that PGP key yesterday:
>> $ gpg --list-packets signature.asc
>> hashed subpkt 2 len 4 (sig created 2015-11-08) [...]
> 
> except the key has been around for quite some time, I did re-sync with
> the sks servers yesterday.
> 
>>
>> And as far as I can tell it hasn't been signed by anyone. At least I
>> think so - after 15 minutes fighting with gpg I still can't find your
>> actual key and I ran out of care.
>>
> 
> No, it hasn't been signed by anyone as I don't have any friends in real
> life who give two shits about security as I mix with non-techies offline.
> This is not a difficulty issue, I can't even begin to talk about
> encryption with them without them changing the issue to great subjects
> such as what was on telly last night.
> 
>> ... Which leads me into my second point, which is that here in 2015
>> PGP is a terrible technical solution. It doesn't encrypt metadata
>> (which is a non-starter these days - who you communicate with is some
>> of the *most* valuable personal data for the NSA). It also leaks
>> information about who signed your key. That means either:
>>
> 
> Oh yeh, some bright spark came up with STARTTLS for encrypting comms
> with mail servers but made it optional, not a GPG issue.
> However, the metadata issue a big problem for everyone who connects to a
> server that isn't owned by them and I suspect really requires a new mail
> protocol to resolve.
> 
>> - Your key gets signed by your friends, so now your friend network public
>> or
>> - Emails with PGP are provably from you, in a way that can be traced
>> back to physically witnessed government ID.
>>
> 
> 1) friend network - can't be avoided if you want a system for vouching
> for email sender authenticity.
> 2) That's part of what PGP is about - sender authenticity. My PGP is not
> attached to a Gov Issued ID.
> 
>> ... Or both! Personally I would rather the possibility of forgery than
>> either of those outcomes.
>>
>> -J
>>
> 
> 

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From dan at geer.org  Sun Nov  8 17:46:10 2015
From: dan at geer.org (dan at geer.org)
Date: Sun, 08 Nov 2015 20:46:10 -0500
Subject: Suggest High-Signal Crew Ditch This for Reddit
Message-ID: <20151109014610.E5308A06DBC@palinka.tinho.net>

http://news.yahoo.com/nastiness-threatens-online-reader-comments-053929979.html

the gist: we need algorithms to prevent free speech we don't like
and until we have them we're turning off/down comments

freedom, safety, comfort -- choose two...

--dan
 





From coderman at gmail.com  Sun Nov  8 21:14:37 2015
From: coderman at gmail.com (coderman)
Date: Sun, 8 Nov 2015 21:14:37 -0800
Subject: [FORGED] Re: [FORGED] Re: UK To Ban Crypto In Devices,
 Email And More
In-Reply-To: <9A043F3CF02CD34C8E74AC1594475C73F4B59971@uxcn10-5.UoA.auckland.ac.nz>
References: <CAD2Ti29w4u9RMOt_gRvWe-vYo_So4R4XyfOYJcqEe_XzPGAL4A@mail.gmail.com>
 <E1ZtgAi-0000Gy-3v@elasmtp-banded.atl.sa.earthlink.net>
 <56391C22.7010101@openmailbox.org>
 <CADrYLAj=8Sd0yOxbppEp=qp8CiLQJfg4PHLY8QmiU=vuQB_uyg@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAOsGNSTC5yOVvSVgtMkzBUraGvtJzYoOrBsTNb_73q_XeG1ijQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <CADrYLAiDiS1hLyfwARG7dtzVd4OLmN4R5-07fTTQpvZ54gMmWQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <9A043F3CF02CD34C8E74AC1594475C73F4B588DC@uxcn10-5.UoA.auckland.ac.nz>
 <CADrYLAg0ZHqG-gvYdBmOrnMfafkv96RFrcy29dKQrjrDHB-0+Q@mail.gmail.com>
 <9A043F3CF02CD34C8E74AC1594475C73F4B59632@uxcn10-5.UoA.auckland.ac.nz>
 <563ebfbb.33268c0a.d899e.ffffcbab@mx.google.com>
 <CADrYLAjdZhORXVodwt_EETwXsAd6eSVT8-PgqyRpaG2yUQYv5w@mail.gmail.com>
 <563eebdf.431a370a.afed.ffffd5ca@mx.google.com>
 <563F06AB.2010208@openmailbox.org>
 <9A043F3CF02CD34C8E74AC1594475C73F4B59971@uxcn10-5.UoA.auckland.ac.nz>
Message-ID: <CAJVRA1SgDqt=jnHidg+9RARFpujPtii0yfZcicDWBznpHWO8WA@mail.gmail.com>

On 11/8/15, Peter Gutmann <pgut001 at cs.auckland.ac.nz> wrote:
> oshwm <oshwm at openmailbox.org> writes:
>
>>Can GPG be easier to use, I think so,
>> is it too difficult to use by ordinary people
>> - no, they're just too fucking lazy and lack motivation.
>
> ... and this is pretty much the poster child for why we have so much
> unusable crypto today.


privacy is for all people!
 not just the privileged.

effective privacy requires utmost usability.




From tbiehn at gmail.com  Sun Nov  8 19:39:38 2015
From: tbiehn at gmail.com (Travis Biehn)
Date: Sun, 8 Nov 2015 22:39:38 -0500
Subject: Suggest High-Signal Crew Ditch This for Reddit
In-Reply-To: <20151109014610.E5308A06DBC@palinka.tinho.net>
References: <20151109014610.E5308A06DBC@palinka.tinho.net>
Message-ID: <CAKtE3zfUWwEa5+XOqpn5cKJDVxmhBzsiDRvYGhH2u64TCb3zAA@mail.gmail.com>

On Sun, Nov 8, 2015 at 8:46 PM, <dan at geer.org> wrote:

>
> http://news.yahoo.com/nastiness-threatens-online-reader-comments-053929979.html
>
> the gist: we need algorithms to prevent free speech we don't like
> and until we have them we're turning off/down comments
>
> freedom, safety, comfort -- choose two...
>
> --dan
>

Wait, you get two?

-Travis

-- 
Twitter <https://twitter.com/tbiehn> | LinkedIn
<http://www.linkedin.com/in/travisbiehn> | GitHub <http://github.com/tbiehn>
| TravisBiehn.com <http://www.travisbiehn.com> | Google Plus
<https://plus.google.com/+TravisBiehn>
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From me at josephg.com  Sun Nov  8 05:41:55 2015
From: me at josephg.com (Joseph Gentle)
Date: Mon, 9 Nov 2015 00:41:55 +1100
Subject: [FORGED] Re: [FORGED] Re: UK To Ban Crypto In Devices,
 Email And More
In-Reply-To: <563F0BB7.4090708@openmailbox.org>
References: <CAD2Ti29w4u9RMOt_gRvWe-vYo_So4R4XyfOYJcqEe_XzPGAL4A@mail.gmail.com>
 <E1ZtgAi-0000Gy-3v@elasmtp-banded.atl.sa.earthlink.net>
 <56391C22.7010101@openmailbox.org>
 <CADrYLAj=8Sd0yOxbppEp=qp8CiLQJfg4PHLY8QmiU=vuQB_uyg@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAOsGNSTC5yOVvSVgtMkzBUraGvtJzYoOrBsTNb_73q_XeG1ijQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <CADrYLAiDiS1hLyfwARG7dtzVd4OLmN4R5-07fTTQpvZ54gMmWQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <9A043F3CF02CD34C8E74AC1594475C73F4B588DC@uxcn10-5.UoA.auckland.ac.nz>
 <CADrYLAg0ZHqG-gvYdBmOrnMfafkv96RFrcy29dKQrjrDHB-0+Q@mail.gmail.com>
 <9A043F3CF02CD34C8E74AC1594475C73F4B59632@uxcn10-5.UoA.auckland.ac.nz>
 <563ebfbb.33268c0a.d899e.ffffcbab@mx.google.com>
 <CADrYLAjdZhORXVodwt_EETwXsAd6eSVT8-PgqyRpaG2yUQYv5w@mail.gmail.com>
 <563eebdf.431a370a.afed.ffffd5ca@mx.google.com>
 <563F06AB.2010208@openmailbox.org>
 <9A043F3CF02CD34C8E74AC1594475C73F4B59971@uxcn10-5.UoA.auckland.ac.nz>
 <563F0BB7.4090708@openmailbox.org>
Message-ID: <CADrYLAiWmoZSWhzs4mOonG++NS3t1hMBjArWKf8r7YJg8vmLOA@mail.gmail.com>

On Sun, Nov 8, 2015 at 7:45 PM, oshwm <oshwm at openmailbox.org> wrote:
> On 08/11/15 08:40, Peter Gutmann wrote:
>> oshwm <oshwm at openmailbox.org> writes:
>>
>>> Can GPG be easier to use, I think so, is it too difficult to use by ordinary
>>> people - no, they're just too fucking lazy and lack motivation.
>>
>> ... and this is pretty much the poster child for why we have so much unusable
>> crypto today.
>>
>
> Or, why we have such a fucking retarded human race with the attention
> span of a knat who expect everything to be given to them on a plate.
> People have to stop being lazy and start taking an interest and
> responsibility for what goes on in the world around them - your point of
> view re-inforces the dumbing down of the population and the increase in
> power of the Government and big Corps.

Even if thats all true, its still also true that nobody is using PGP.
Its easier to make a slick UI than convince people to do work. Is it
so much to ask that people who make software try to make life easy for
their users?

For all your talk of doing hard work oshwm, it looks like you only
created that PGP key yesterday:
$ gpg --list-packets signature.asc
hashed subpkt 2 len 4 (sig created 2015-11-08) [...]

And as far as I can tell it hasn't been signed by anyone. At least I
think so - after 15 minutes fighting with gpg I still can't find your
actual key and I ran out of care.

... Which leads me into my second point, which is that here in 2015
PGP is a terrible technical solution. It doesn't encrypt metadata
(which is a non-starter these days - who you communicate with is some
of the *most* valuable personal data for the NSA). It also leaks
information about who signed your key. That means either:

- Your key gets signed by your friends, so now your friend network public
or
- Emails with PGP are provably from you, in a way that can be traced
back to physically witnessed government ID.

... Or both! Personally I would rather the possibility of forgery than
either of those outcomes.

-J




From grarpamp at gmail.com  Sun Nov  8 23:20:53 2015
From: grarpamp at gmail.com (grarpamp)
Date: Mon, 9 Nov 2015 02:20:53 -0500
Subject: DropZone: An Anonymous Peer-To-Peer Local Contraband Marketplace
Message-ID: <CAD2Ti2_BeCJByc=MkOm=dUa-4fG+bx89nH95CSiOhbpC+emsjA@mail.gmail.com>

https://github.com/17Q4MX2hmktmpuUKHFuoRmS5MfB5XPbhod

To whom it may concern,

Markets are objects of censorship and always have been. There is a
presumed division, that renders commerce distinct from the notion of
free speech. But I will allege that the act of commerce is, itself,
indistinct from speech. Where or how one spends their value is a
decision as personal and poignant as any words ever spoken or letters
ever written.

As a unfortunate consequence of freedom, bad actors will engage in
repugnant trade that impinges upon the rights and freedoms of others.
It is the job of humanity to cooperate and see to it that trade, such
as this, becomes unprofitable. Whether it is accomplished through
technological achievement or through the adjustment of social mores,
or perhaps a simple appeal to the underlying natural law, it is not
the job of bad acting third parties to force into hiding commerce that
must be dealt with by means of an adjustment to the global, social
conscience.

Cooperation, in the manner I was just speaking about, has never been
plausible until the invention of The Blockchain. I will not foist upon
Satoshi's humble creation such impracticable possibilities as the
achievement of world peace.
But in approaching Drop Zone, I am attempting to do nothing more than
what is possible and possibly more efficient than what exists. I wish
for Drop Zone to be nothing more than an appendage to The Blockchain.
As such, it is every bit as much Bitcoin as Bitcoin itself. Just as a
fungible Bitcoin enables the exchange of spaceless value with near
impunity, Drop Zone removes the ability of unwelcome parties from
glancing over the shoulders of those in the act of an exchange,
whatever it entails. This technology disrupts the ability of buyers to
gain insight into the identities or movements of suppliers making
supply chains far less vulnerable to disruption. It is this innovation
that separates this project from all other decentralized market
solutions.

Whereas Bitcoin forces us to consider the nature of money and value,
Drop Zone will do the same for commerce. At its root, Bitcoin is a
message passing system. Those messages that are passed, unlike any
electronic message that's come before it, articulate value. Commerce
is, and has always been, similarly inclined toward message passing.
Whether in-person, over email, or through large, online shopping
carts, fundamentally, commerce is composed of messages that are in
service of the transaction wherein a final message of value is sent to
a recipient in exchange for a negotiated good or service. As such,
Drop Zone is a secure message passing protocol inasmuch as it is a
platform for commerce. And while the problem is far beyond the scope
or capabilities of the protocol in its most fundamental form, the
observant might even see the tenuous skeleton of a full-fledged
reputation system. Such a project is, in itself, as important and
difficult as any facing this decentralized ecosystem.

I hope that Drop Zone lets us all dream of a day when no man will any
longer be made to suffer indignity for simply engaging in unpopular or
stigmatized commerce. May all commerce be created equal.

Today is a Beautiful day,

Miracle Max quia omnis qui se exaltat humiliabitur et qui se humiliat
exaltabitur




From grarpamp at gmail.com  Sun Nov  8 23:31:35 2015
From: grarpamp at gmail.com (grarpamp)
Date: Mon, 9 Nov 2015 02:31:35 -0500
Subject: Fwd: [cryptography] Introducing myself
In-Reply-To: <lsathmdkzr.iyehvn@nymphet.paranoici.org>
References: <lsathmdkzr.iyehvn@nymphet.paranoici.org>
Message-ID: <CAD2Ti2-ph3+5EkOqCp-D5s7+CVDo210q3f-c43RV-6Vz1STFZw@mail.gmail.com>

---------- Forwarded message ----------
From:  <stenski at nymphet.paranoici.org>
Date: Sun, Nov 8, 2015 at 8:06 PM
Subject: [cryptography] Introducing myself
To: cryptography at randombit.net


-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1

My true name is the OpenPGP key whose public component is appended
below.  "Igor Stenski" is just a nickname.  Each message from me is
signed with this key.

Interests include

   o zerocash [1]; and
   o bonded identity (a variant of fidelity bond [2]).

bitcoin:

1JvAjr6DFg673Qy82n8WbWfdSYGmSZy1Jw

[1] http://zerocash-project.org/
[2] http://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/Fidelity_bonds

- -----BEGIN PGP PUBLIC KEY BLOCK-----
Version: GnuPG v1.4.12 (GNU/Linux)

mQINBFYW2V0BEADVyNsPcBBHoM0ejwCDvF5KSCuc8ufCEemMhrIKQAhdu/QPMEEs
b5xu/3r2C7rUOAxSlZLGWdgkQ2jA/XCjve4po3p+t1Gi1kNJB8n82XBnBy0qQVKP
kacyl5JuUF76ihM1+UMD6Puq85/24fBD1OD/4T0HqOXAHVwU2ddiopDSNhD7te6l
MeUJj2HFx882Y4756hRO6CzXpQI4+wiN2ehdZEMQo6gF1b9ccO0XAuu10isvoyu3
Ux3wIfDjJNbySAQdu8Z5QHKEdHaTkEQRPiKHsl5B8w2NB3EYPCwr/r1r78BxjH6m
Rbju278dB+6lOc8sfyyOhVLuCtvBMl6Kih2D4wnuboB+bWI/jHfVgsq2mPakrGEc
DVLOlYptAZlQOrTDDAd4pODZHHC/Iawr4y/8f9GUESHOTEuKxI0+xXNNxpabjGCd
/mf08U+aGFYHVxhYNZFX06uhADfDz4zRyFlJcHrmeOIOIvOpC6P2MKgMXj7DYXfu
VxPaBQrhu5XUPjyccvYDC0fsV+wHcTCdGa2c+6CLCkLUznQm4P+ShTaPrh0q2Ujs
Y7wsxgeV018A76ndCFMbwKM806WMXgFJGyZsIMu2MhI/QmkTzqurH+ux+vdYKNRN
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_______________________________________________
cryptography mailing list
cryptography at randombit.net
http://lists.randombit.net/mailman/listinfo/cryptography




From l at odewijk.nl  Sun Nov  8 17:55:17 2015
From: l at odewijk.nl (=?UTF-8?Q?Lodewijk_andr=C3=A9_de_la_porte?=)
Date: Mon, 9 Nov 2015 02:55:17 +0100
Subject: cry-bullies
In-Reply-To: <CAOsGNSRP_w-0OL5FweRk9QJ5arq0A9iZHfWyVXJtDgqsED2FUQ@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAOsGNSRP_w-0OL5FweRk9QJ5arq0A9iZHfWyVXJtDgqsED2FUQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAHWD2rKZwApDd785z8w2ZfDW84qdXUwU2LEYOR=iYZ1tnjiwPA@mail.gmail.com>

Usually these are just called "people that play victim". Apparently online
you can always find some fools that agree with whatever, so the same for
"i'm a victim of x".

Could be better with the pretentious article.
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From jdb10987 at yahoo.com  Sun Nov  8 21:20:57 2015
From: jdb10987 at yahoo.com (jim bell)
Date: Mon, 9 Nov 2015 05:20:57 +0000 (UTC)
Subject: Suggest High-Signal Crew Ditch This for Reddit
In-Reply-To: <20151109014610.E5308A06DBC@palinka.tinho.net>
References: <20151109014610.E5308A06DBC@palinka.tinho.net>
Message-ID: <90265143.1841695.1447046457764.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com>

  From: "dan at geer.org" <dan at geer.org>
>http://news.yahoo.com/nastiness-threatens-online-reader-comments-053929979.html
>the gist: we need algorithms to prevent free speech we don't like
>and until we have them we're turning off/down comments
>freedom, safety, comfort -- choose two...
Yahoo is one of the most incredibly biased, "PC" websites I have seen.   Sure they get nasty comments...because they are almost always shamelessly defending one side of an issue.  Soon I expect they will be making apologies for child molesters, too.  (That's no doubt in the works).





  
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From zen at freedbms.net  Sun Nov  8 21:41:56 2015
From: zen at freedbms.net (Zenaan Harkness)
Date: Mon, 9 Nov 2015 05:41:56 +0000
Subject: [FORGED] Re: [FORGED] Re: UK To Ban Crypto In Devices,
 Email And More
In-Reply-To: <CAJVRA1SgDqt=jnHidg+9RARFpujPtii0yfZcicDWBznpHWO8WA@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAD2Ti29w4u9RMOt_gRvWe-vYo_So4R4XyfOYJcqEe_XzPGAL4A@mail.gmail.com>
 <E1ZtgAi-0000Gy-3v@elasmtp-banded.atl.sa.earthlink.net>
 <56391C22.7010101@openmailbox.org>
 <CADrYLAj=8Sd0yOxbppEp=qp8CiLQJfg4PHLY8QmiU=vuQB_uyg@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAOsGNSTC5yOVvSVgtMkzBUraGvtJzYoOrBsTNb_73q_XeG1ijQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <CADrYLAiDiS1hLyfwARG7dtzVd4OLmN4R5-07fTTQpvZ54gMmWQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <9A043F3CF02CD34C8E74AC1594475C73F4B588DC@uxcn10-5.UoA.auckland.ac.nz>
 <CADrYLAg0ZHqG-gvYdBmOrnMfafkv96RFrcy29dKQrjrDHB-0+Q@mail.gmail.com>
 <9A043F3CF02CD34C8E74AC1594475C73F4B59632@uxcn10-5.UoA.auckland.ac.nz>
 <563ebfbb.33268c0a.d899e.ffffcbab@mx.google.com>
 <CADrYLAjdZhORXVodwt_EETwXsAd6eSVT8-PgqyRpaG2yUQYv5w@mail.gmail.com>
 <563eebdf.431a370a.afed.ffffd5ca@mx.google.com>
 <563F06AB.2010208@openmailbox.org>
 <9A043F3CF02CD34C8E74AC1594475C73F4B59971@uxcn10-5.UoA.auckland.ac.nz>
 <CAJVRA1SgDqt=jnHidg+9RARFpujPtii0yfZcicDWBznpHWO8WA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAOsGNSRpFbvvYkszwrES5Qq4cLMwOsvDk0hL_Pz1Q_HVqeZhPw@mail.gmail.com>

On 11/9/15, coderman <coderman at gmail.com> wrote:
> On 11/8/15, Peter Gutmann <pgut001 at cs.auckland.ac.nz> wrote:
>> oshwm <oshwm at openmailbox.org> writes:
>>
>>>Can GPG be easier to use, I think so,
>>> is it too difficult to use by ordinary people
>>> - no, they're just too fucking lazy and lack motivation.
>>
>> ... and this is pretty much the poster child for why we have so much
>> unusable crypto today.
>
>
> privacy is for all people!
>  not just the privileged.
>
> effective privacy requires utmost usability.

What, like being able to open all random flash attachments in MSIE on
Windows, without any awareness of the possible consequences?




From intelemetry at openmailbox.org  Sun Nov  8 21:46:51 2015
From: intelemetry at openmailbox.org (intelemetry)
Date: Mon, 9 Nov 2015 05:46:51 +0000
Subject: =?UTF-8?B?UmU6IOKAmEnigJltIGNvbWZvcnRhYmxlIHdpdGggbXkgY2hvaWNlcw==?=
 =?UTF-8?Q?=e2=80=99:_Snowden_on_CIA_torture=2c_ISIS_and_surveillance?=
In-Reply-To: <563e774d.871c8d0a.3d67d.ffffaa23@mx.google.com>
References: <CAOsGNSQXpXJbe9j0NfFZxptOOOh7+meediA5TRvUMBGD6Gqebg@mail.gmail.com>
 <563e774d.871c8d0a.3d67d.ffffaa23@mx.google.com>
Message-ID: <5640334B.6060901@openmailbox.org>



Juan:
> On Sat, 7 Nov 2015 02:26:41 +0000
> Zenaan Harkness <zen at freedbms.net> wrote:
> 
>> https://www.rt.com/news/321105-snowden-swedish-media-interview/
>>
>> http://fokus.dn.se/edward-snowden-english/
> 
> 
> 	more snowden mental vomit 
> 
> 
> 	" if you give the US special back door access, you’re not going
> 	to be able to sell your iPhone in China, unless you also give
> 	them a back door. The same in Russia." 
> 

	Yes, you will. Just don't talk about it. Probably already there.

> 	
> 	" These[nsa cunts like him] are not people torturing people. " 
> 

	What does that mean?

> 
> 	Right, they are not torturing and killing people directly. They
> 	just pick the 'targets'. 

	http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0317910/

> 
> 	
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 	
> 
> 
> 
> 	
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
>  
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 	
> 	
> 
> 
> 




From intelemetry at openmailbox.org  Sun Nov  8 21:48:05 2015
From: intelemetry at openmailbox.org (intelemetry)
Date: Mon, 9 Nov 2015 05:48:05 +0000
Subject: FOIPA adventures
In-Reply-To: <CAO7N=i2tYWrCXbb6ePTioJnDGdcsUPPoigRH-N-7Vvmy5c6VAA@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAO7N=i2tYWrCXbb6ePTioJnDGdcsUPPoigRH-N-7Vvmy5c6VAA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <56403395.5080302@openmailbox.org>

Just going to throw this out there for people who don't like dni and
cryptome pdf links:

	http://view.samurajdata.se/

Ryan Carboni:
> http://www.dni.gov/files/documents/FOIA/DF-2015-00270.pdf
> 
> You're famous!
> 




From zen at freedbms.net  Sun Nov  8 21:50:31 2015
From: zen at freedbms.net (Zenaan Harkness)
Date: Mon, 9 Nov 2015 05:50:31 +0000
Subject: [FORGED] Re: [FORGED] Re: UK To Ban Crypto In Devices,
 Email And More
In-Reply-To: <CAOsGNSRpFbvvYkszwrES5Qq4cLMwOsvDk0hL_Pz1Q_HVqeZhPw@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAD2Ti29w4u9RMOt_gRvWe-vYo_So4R4XyfOYJcqEe_XzPGAL4A@mail.gmail.com>
 <E1ZtgAi-0000Gy-3v@elasmtp-banded.atl.sa.earthlink.net>
 <56391C22.7010101@openmailbox.org>
 <CADrYLAj=8Sd0yOxbppEp=qp8CiLQJfg4PHLY8QmiU=vuQB_uyg@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAOsGNSTC5yOVvSVgtMkzBUraGvtJzYoOrBsTNb_73q_XeG1ijQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <CADrYLAiDiS1hLyfwARG7dtzVd4OLmN4R5-07fTTQpvZ54gMmWQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <9A043F3CF02CD34C8E74AC1594475C73F4B588DC@uxcn10-5.UoA.auckland.ac.nz>
 <CADrYLAg0ZHqG-gvYdBmOrnMfafkv96RFrcy29dKQrjrDHB-0+Q@mail.gmail.com>
 <9A043F3CF02CD34C8E74AC1594475C73F4B59632@uxcn10-5.UoA.auckland.ac.nz>
 <563ebfbb.33268c0a.d899e.ffffcbab@mx.google.com>
 <CADrYLAjdZhORXVodwt_EETwXsAd6eSVT8-PgqyRpaG2yUQYv5w@mail.gmail.com>
 <563eebdf.431a370a.afed.ffffd5ca@mx.google.com>
 <563F06AB.2010208@openmailbox.org>
 <9A043F3CF02CD34C8E74AC1594475C73F4B59971@uxcn10-5.UoA.auckland.ac.nz>
 <CAJVRA1SgDqt=jnHidg+9RARFpujPtii0yfZcicDWBznpHWO8WA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAOsGNSRpFbvvYkszwrES5Qq4cLMwOsvDk0hL_Pz1Q_HVqeZhPw@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAOsGNSSJhB9Vic5ukrYyWE=zG0dnEYi224+YUw5YcZCUrkJS0A@mail.gmail.com>

On 11/9/15, Zenaan Harkness <zen at freedbms.net> wrote:
> On 11/9/15, coderman <coderman at gmail.com> wrote:
>> On 11/8/15, Peter Gutmann <pgut001 at cs.auckland.ac.nz> wrote:
>>> oshwm <oshwm at openmailbox.org> writes:
>>>
>>>>Can GPG be easier to use, I think so,
>>>> is it too difficult to use by ordinary people
>>>> - no, they're just too fucking lazy and lack motivation.
>>>
>>> ... and this is pretty much the poster child for why we have so much
>>> unusable crypto today.
>>
>>
>> privacy is for all people!
>>  not just the privileged.

PS, The right to privacy is indeed a human right. Living a human right
requires awareness of the right, a will to live the right, a will to
live the right in the face of opposition (sometimes oppressive and
government sanctioned opposition).
Z




From admin at pilobilus.net  Mon Nov  9 04:15:51 2015
From: admin at pilobilus.net (Steve Kinney)
Date: Mon, 9 Nov 2015 07:15:51 -0500
Subject: Suggest High-Signal Crew Ditch This for Reddit
In-Reply-To: <20151109014610.E5308A06DBC@palinka.tinho.net>
References: <20151109014610.E5308A06DBC@palinka.tinho.net>
Message-ID: <56408E77.70208@pilobilus.net>

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1

On 11/08/2015 08:46 PM, dan at geer.org wrote:
> http://news.yahoo.com/nastiness-threatens-online-reader-comments-0
53929979.html
>
>  the gist: we need algorithms to prevent free speech we don't
> like and until we have them we're turning off/down comments
> 
> freedom, safety, comfort -- choose two...

My version is "Peace, Freedom and Justice, pick any two."

:o)



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From Rayzer at riseup.net  Mon Nov  9 13:10:43 2015
From: Rayzer at riseup.net (Razer)
Date: Mon, 9 Nov 2015 13:10:43 -0800
Subject: [FORGED] Re: [FORGED] Re: UK To Ban Crypto In Devices, Email And
 More
In-Reply-To: <5640FE39.6020908@openmailbox.org>
References: <CAD2Ti29w4u9RMOt_gRvWe-vYo_So4R4XyfOYJcqEe_XzPGAL4A@mail.gmail.com>
 <E1ZtgAi-0000Gy-3v@elasmtp-banded.atl.sa.earthlink.net>
 <56391C22.7010101@openmailbox.org>
 <CADrYLAj=8Sd0yOxbppEp=qp8CiLQJfg4PHLY8QmiU=vuQB_uyg@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAOsGNSTC5yOVvSVgtMkzBUraGvtJzYoOrBsTNb_73q_XeG1ijQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <CADrYLAiDiS1hLyfwARG7dtzVd4OLmN4R5-07fTTQpvZ54gMmWQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <9A043F3CF02CD34C8E74AC1594475C73F4B588DC@uxcn10-5.UoA.auckland.ac.nz>
 <CADrYLAg0ZHqG-gvYdBmOrnMfafkv96RFrcy29dKQrjrDHB-0+Q@mail.gmail.com>
 <9A043F3CF02CD34C8E74AC1594475C73F4B59632@uxcn10-5.UoA.auckland.ac.nz>
 <563ebfbb.33268c0a.d899e.ffffcbab@mx.google.com>
 <CADrYLAjdZhORXVodwt_EETwXsAd6eSVT8-PgqyRpaG2yUQYv5w@mail.gmail.com>
 <563eebdf.431a370a.afed.ffffd5ca@mx.google.com>
 <563F06AB.2010208@openmailbox.org>
 <9A043F3CF02CD34C8E74AC1594475C73F4B59971@uxcn10-5.UoA.auckland.ac.nz>
 <563F0BB7.4090708@openmailbox.org> <D266194A.C5D4%stephan.neuhaus@zhaw.ch>
 <5640FE39.6020908@openmailbox.org>
Message-ID: <56410BD3.4000901@riseup.net>



On 11/09/2015 12:12 PM, oshwm wrote:
> I feel sorry for your dad, having a child that thinks so little of his
> mental capacity.
Before he passed at 84, my dad, a coordinator for technical writers at
NASA during the Gemini and Apollo programs, and extra class ham radio
operator, called me for assistance with his windoze machine. When I
instructed him to click the [Start] button on the left for a menu he
said he didn't see it. I said "look at the other end of the bottom bar",
and he found it.

He was having problems telling left from right.

Just sayin'...

Similarly, but a little off-topic, age IS in the news >

Would you want someone in that condition passing judgment in a Federal
court on you?

http://www.abajournal.com/news/article/9th_circuit_addresses_mental_decline_in_federal_judges
http://www.slate.com/articles/news_and_politics/jurisprudence/2011/01/the_oldest_bench_ever.html
http://www.propublica.org/article/life-tenure-for-federal-judges-raises-issues-of-senility-dementia

RR

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From guninski at guninski.com  Mon Nov  9 03:28:01 2015
From: guninski at guninski.com (Georgi Guninski)
Date: Mon, 9 Nov 2015 13:28:01 +0200
Subject: Fwd: [cryptography] Introducing myself
In-Reply-To: <CAD2Ti2-ph3+5EkOqCp-D5s7+CVDo210q3f-c43RV-6Vz1STFZw@mail.gmail.com>
References: <lsathmdkzr.iyehvn@nymphet.paranoici.org>
 <CAD2Ti2-ph3+5EkOqCp-D5s7+CVDo210q3f-c43RV-6Vz1STFZw@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <20151109112801.GA2654@sivokote.iziade.m$>

On Mon, Nov 09, 2015 at 02:31:35AM -0500, grarpamp wrote:
> ---------- Forwarded message ----------
> From:  <stenski at nymphet.paranoici.org>
> ....
> [1] http://zerocash-project.org/

http://zerocash-project.org/about_us

------
Sponsors
* U.S. Defense Advanced Research Projects Agency (DARPA) and the Air
Force Research Laboratory (AFRL) under contract FA8750-11-2-0211
* Office of Naval Research under contract N00014-11-1-0470
* Israeli Ministry of Science and Technology
------

I strongly doubt the above are really against the virtual dollar...




From juan.g71 at gmail.com  Mon Nov  9 09:55:20 2015
From: juan.g71 at gmail.com (Juan)
Date: Mon, 9 Nov 2015 14:55:20 -0300
Subject: [cryptography] Introducing myself
In-Reply-To: <20151109112801.GA2654@sivokote.iziade.m$>
References: <lsathmdkzr.iyehvn@nymphet.paranoici.org>
 <CAD2Ti2-ph3+5EkOqCp-D5s7+CVDo210q3f-c43RV-6Vz1STFZw@mail.gmail.com>
 <20151109112801.GA2654@sivokote.iziade.m$>
Message-ID: <5640dc64.d6fc8c0a.22d1d.ffff8f6c@mx.google.com>

On Mon, 9 Nov 2015 13:28:01 +0200
Georgi Guninski <guninski at guninski.com> wrote:

> On Mon, Nov 09, 2015 at 02:31:35AM -0500, grarpamp wrote:
> > ---------- Forwarded message ----------
> > From:  <stenski at nymphet.paranoici.org>
> > ....
> > [1] http://zerocash-project.org/
> 
> http://zerocash-project.org/about_us
> 
> ------
> Sponsors
> * U.S. Defense Advanced Research Projects Agency (DARPA) and the Air
> Force Research Laboratory (AFRL) under contract FA8750-11-2-0211
> * Office of Naval Research under contract N00014-11-1-0470
> * Israeli Ministry of Science and Technology
> ------
> 
> I strongly doubt the above are really against the virtual dollar...


	I think that's called "april fools joke". Oh, wait...











From oshwm at openmailbox.org  Mon Nov  9 12:12:41 2015
From: oshwm at openmailbox.org (oshwm)
Date: Mon, 09 Nov 2015 20:12:41 +0000
Subject: [FORGED] Re: [FORGED] Re: UK To Ban Crypto In Devices, Email
 And More
In-Reply-To: <D266194A.C5D4%stephan.neuhaus@zhaw.ch>
References: <CAD2Ti29w4u9RMOt_gRvWe-vYo_So4R4XyfOYJcqEe_XzPGAL4A@mail.gmail.com>
 <E1ZtgAi-0000Gy-3v@elasmtp-banded.atl.sa.earthlink.net>
 <56391C22.7010101@openmailbox.org>
 <CADrYLAj=8Sd0yOxbppEp=qp8CiLQJfg4PHLY8QmiU=vuQB_uyg@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAOsGNSTC5yOVvSVgtMkzBUraGvtJzYoOrBsTNb_73q_XeG1ijQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <CADrYLAiDiS1hLyfwARG7dtzVd4OLmN4R5-07fTTQpvZ54gMmWQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <9A043F3CF02CD34C8E74AC1594475C73F4B588DC@uxcn10-5.UoA.auckland.ac.nz>
 <CADrYLAg0ZHqG-gvYdBmOrnMfafkv96RFrcy29dKQrjrDHB-0+Q@mail.gmail.com>
 <9A043F3CF02CD34C8E74AC1594475C73F4B59632@uxcn10-5.UoA.auckland.ac.nz>
 <563ebfbb.33268c0a.d899e.ffffcbab@mx.google.com>
 <CADrYLAjdZhORXVodwt_EETwXsAd6eSVT8-PgqyRpaG2yUQYv5w@mail.gmail.com>
 <563eebdf.431a370a.afed.ffffd5ca@mx.google.com>
 <563F06AB.2010208@openmailbox.org>
 <9A043F3CF02CD34C8E74AC1594475C73F4B59971@uxcn10-5.UoA.auckland.ac.nz>
 <563F0BB7.4090708@openmailbox.org> <D266194A.C5D4%stephan.neuhaus@zhaw.ch>
Message-ID: <5640FE39.6020908@openmailbox.org>



On 09/11/15 08:38, Neuhaus Stephan (neut) wrote:
> On 2015-11-08 09:45, "cypherpunks on behalf of oshwm"
> <cypherpunks-bounces at cpunks.org on behalf of oshwm at openmailbox.org> wrote:
> 
>>
>>
>> On 08/11/15 08:40, Peter Gutmann wrote:
>>> oshwm <oshwm at openmailbox.org> writes:
>>>
>>>> Can GPG be easier to use, I think so, is it too difficult to use by
>>>> ordinary
>>>> people - no, they're just too fucking lazy and lack motivation.
>>>
>>> ... and this is pretty much the poster child for why we have so much
>>> unusable
>>> crypto today.
>>>
>>
>> Or, why we have such a fucking retarded human race with the attention
>> span of a knat who expect everything to be given to them on a plate.
> 
> I think you're rather making Peter's point for him.
> 
> Case in point: Would you care to try to explain to my dad (who is 76) what
> an expired PGP key means, exactly? What a trusted key is?  Hell, what a
> public key is, even? How a PGP plaintext signature could have failed to
> verify? (In this context, don't forget to explain to him the difference
> between UTF-8 and ISO 8859-1.) Hint: an attitude of "well, you just have
> to learn all these new concepts, you fucking retarded human with the
> attention span of a knat" is probably not going to help.
> 

I feel sorry for your dad, having a child that thinks so little of his
mental capacity.
If your dad can operate Windows and an email client then he has what is
needed to learn enough to sign and encrypt emails with GnuPG.
He doesn't need to know how crypto works or every minute detail, he just
needs to be able to make sense of a Wizard and to be able to click a few
buttons.
He'll be at a disadvantage for not learning more about crypto and PGP
but he'll be able to maintain a small amount of privacy in his use of email.
When he gets stuck he might be able to ask his son or daughter for help
- assuming he hasn't given up asking because you hold his mental
capacity in such low regard.

> If we want "ordinary people” (whatever they are, but in a crypto context
> they’ll be more like my dad than like me) to use encryption, we will have
> to make it invisible to them. It doesn't even have to be perfect; good
> enough will do.
> 

You think if crypto is invisible to people then they'll be able to deal
with when things go wrong any better than your dad would be if you
equipped him with minimal knowledge of how to get by with PGP using e.g
Enigmail on Thunderbird?

The more you hide details from people, the less they are able to help
themselves.

> Fun,
> 
> Stephan
> — 
> 
> If I have downvote policy, I will downvote you.

I'll take that as a compliment, thank you :)

> 
> 

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From jdb10987 at yahoo.com  Mon Nov  9 14:02:13 2015
From: jdb10987 at yahoo.com (jim bell)
Date: Mon, 9 Nov 2015 22:02:13 +0000 (UTC)
Subject: [FORGED] Re: [FORGED] Re: UK To Ban Crypto In Devices, Email
 And More
In-Reply-To: <564112FC.9030507@gmail.com>
References: <564112FC.9030507@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <1777567364.2292167.1447106533545.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com>

  From: Tomas Overdrive Petru <tpetru at gmail.com>


On 08/11/15 08:40, Peter Gutmann wrote:
>> ... and this is pretty much the poster child for why we have so much unusable
>>> crypto today.
>> Or, why we have such a fucking retarded human race with the attention
>> span of a knat who expect everything to be given to them on a plate.
>> People have to stop being lazy and start taking an interest and
>> responsibility for what goes on in the world around them - your point of
>> view re-inforces the dumbing down of the population and the increase in
>> power of the Government and big Corps.
>> Peter.
<snip>
>We can teach, script and just do it better and without extreme barriers
>for people to adopt crypto seamlessly.
>We do not need to have it perfect, same as robots are not perfect when
>driving. It is just enough to be better than average.

In https://en.wikiquote.org/wiki/Alfred_North_Whitehead
"It is a profoundly erroneous truism, repeated by all copy-books and by eminent people when they are making speeches, that we should cultivate the habit of thinking of what we are doing. The precise opposite is the case. Civilization advances by extending the number of important operations which we can perform without thinking about them. Operations of thought are like cavalry charges in a battle — they are strictly limited in number, they require fresh horses, and must only be made at decisive moments."
[end of quote]


  
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From oshwm at openmailbox.org  Mon Nov  9 14:03:03 2015
From: oshwm at openmailbox.org (oshwm)
Date: Mon, 09 Nov 2015 22:03:03 +0000
Subject: [FORGED] Re: [FORGED] Re: UK To Ban Crypto In Devices, Email
 And More
In-Reply-To: <564112FC.9030507@gmail.com>
References: <CAD2Ti29w4u9RMOt_gRvWe-vYo_So4R4XyfOYJcqEe_XzPGAL4A@mail.gmail.com>
 <E1ZtgAi-0000Gy-3v@elasmtp-banded.atl.sa.earthlink.net>
 <56391C22.7010101@openmailbox.org>
 <CADrYLAj=8Sd0yOxbppEp=qp8CiLQJfg4PHLY8QmiU=vuQB_uyg@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAOsGNSTC5yOVvSVgtMkzBUraGvtJzYoOrBsTNb_73q_XeG1ijQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <CADrYLAiDiS1hLyfwARG7dtzVd4OLmN4R5-07fTTQpvZ54gMmWQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <9A043F3CF02CD34C8E74AC1594475C73F4B588DC@uxcn10-5.UoA.auckland.ac.nz>
 <CADrYLAg0ZHqG-gvYdBmOrnMfafkv96RFrcy29dKQrjrDHB-0+Q@mail.gmail.com>
 <9A043F3CF02CD34C8E74AC1594475C73F4B59632@uxcn10-5.UoA.auckland.ac.nz>
 <563ebfbb.33268c0a.d899e.ffffcbab@mx.google.com>
 <CADrYLAjdZhORXVodwt_EETwXsAd6eSVT8-PgqyRpaG2yUQYv5w@mail.gmail.com>
 <563eebdf.431a370a.afed.ffffd5ca@mx.google.com>
 <563F06AB.2010208@openmailbox.org>
 <9A043F3CF02CD34C8E74AC1594475C73F4B59971@uxcn10-5.UoA.auckland.ac.nz>
 <563F0BB7.4090708@openmailbox.org> <564112FC.9030507@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <56411817.3070505@openmailbox.org>

Gonna top post cos I can :P

If I seem angry then it is because everyone seems to say that making a
nice easy to use User Interface will solve all the problems with people
not using crypto.
This is not the case, Enigmail is a pretty easy to use UI for PGP and
yet ordinary people aren't using it.

The vast majority of people (not through their own fault, originally)
have been programmed to be spoon fed the answers to their needs, not
question authority and to only have a 20 second attention span.

These are the issues that need addressing, pretty crypto is useful but
it will not address these issues.
So, go ahead and make pretty crypto UI and see how much of a difference
it makes, or find a way (and I'm at a loss myself here) to motivate the
sheeple to invest time and effort and overcome their programming.



On 09/11/15 21:41, Tomas Overdrive Petru wrote:
> On 08/11/15 08:40, Peter Gutmann wrote:
>>> oshwm <oshwm at openmailbox.org> writes:
>>>
>>>> Can GPG be easier to use, I think so, is it too difficult to use by ordinary
>>>> people - no, they're just too fucking lazy and lack motivation.
>>> ... and this is pretty much the poster child for why we have so much unusable
>>> crypto today.
>>>
>> Or, why we have such a fucking retarded human race with the attention
>> span of a knat who expect everything to be given to them on a plate.
>> People have to stop being lazy and start taking an interest and
>> responsibility for what goes on in the world around them - your point of
>> view re-inforces the dumbing down of the population and the increase in
>> power of the Government and big Corps.
>>
>>> Peter.
> 
> Really? So what is purpose of this thread if I can ask? To complain that
> ordinary people are sheep?
> Whata new approach whata invention.
> What do you expect? Why people are so easily pressed and tend to follow
> dictators? Why somebody even tend to be solider or why people do eat
> meet when it is not necessary.
> I know there will be a lot of chain of arguing against controversy of
> eating meet now.
> Please fck this. We already know, that most of people will never care
> about crypto without our help.
> I feel mood on this thread as mood of angry barking dog but pretty
> toothless. We are not.
> We can teach, script and just do it better and without extreme barriers
> for people to adopt crypto seamlessly.
> We do not need to have it perfect, same as robots are not perfect when
> driving. It is just enough to be better than average.
> Telegram is step [however crypto is implemented], Open Whisper Systems
> is doing huge amount of work.
> No reason of this half bitter and half angry tone.
> Now it could be right time to stand against nonsense regulation again.
> It happened already in time of PIPA, SOPA...
> So lets bark on right target not to "ordinary people".
> 
> regards,
> Over
> 

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From oshwm at openmailbox.org  Mon Nov  9 14:31:07 2015
From: oshwm at openmailbox.org (oshwm)
Date: Mon, 09 Nov 2015 22:31:07 +0000
Subject: [FORGED] Re: [FORGED] Re: UK To Ban Crypto In Devices, Email
 And More
In-Reply-To: <56410BD3.4000901@riseup.net>
References: <CAD2Ti29w4u9RMOt_gRvWe-vYo_So4R4XyfOYJcqEe_XzPGAL4A@mail.gmail.com>
 <56391C22.7010101@openmailbox.org>
 <CADrYLAj=8Sd0yOxbppEp=qp8CiLQJfg4PHLY8QmiU=vuQB_uyg@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAOsGNSTC5yOVvSVgtMkzBUraGvtJzYoOrBsTNb_73q_XeG1ijQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <CADrYLAiDiS1hLyfwARG7dtzVd4OLmN4R5-07fTTQpvZ54gMmWQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <9A043F3CF02CD34C8E74AC1594475C73F4B588DC@uxcn10-5.UoA.auckland.ac.nz>
 <CADrYLAg0ZHqG-gvYdBmOrnMfafkv96RFrcy29dKQrjrDHB-0+Q@mail.gmail.com>
 <9A043F3CF02CD34C8E74AC1594475C73F4B59632@uxcn10-5.UoA.auckland.ac.nz>
 <563ebfbb.33268c0a.d899e.ffffcbab@mx.google.com>
 <CADrYLAjdZhORXVodwt_EETwXsAd6eSVT8-PgqyRpaG2yUQYv5w@mail.gmail.com>
 <563eebdf.431a370a.afed.ffffd5ca@mx.google.com>
 <563F06AB.2010208@openmailbox.org>
 <9A043F3CF02CD34C8E74AC1594475C73F4B59971@uxcn10-5.UoA.auckland.ac.nz>
 <563F0BB7.4090708@openmailbox.org> <D266194A.C5D4%stephan.neuhaus@zhaw.ch>
 <5640FE39.6020908@openmailbox.org> <56410BD3.4000901@riseup.net>
Message-ID: <56411EAB.9020804@openmailbox.org>



On 09/11/15 21:10, Razer wrote:
> 
> 
> On 11/09/2015 12:12 PM, oshwm wrote:
>> I feel sorry for your dad, having a child that thinks so little of his
>> mental capacity.
> Before he passed at 84, my dad, a coordinator for technical writers at
> NASA during the Gemini and Apollo programs, and extra class ham radio
> operator, called me for assistance with his windoze machine. When I
> instructed him to click the [Start] button on the left for a menu he
> said he didn't see it. I said "look at the other end of the bottom bar",
> and he found it.
> 
> He was having problems telling left from right.

Yeh but I know a few people who have nowhere near that many years who
can't tell their left from right :)

> 
> Just sayin'...
> 
> Similarly, but a little off-topic, age IS in the news >
> 
> Would you want someone in that condition passing judgment in a Federal
> court on you?
> 
> http://www.abajournal.com/news/article/9th_circuit_addresses_mental_decline_in_federal_judges
> http://www.slate.com/articles/news_and_politics/jurisprudence/2011/01/the_oldest_bench_ever.html
> http://www.propublica.org/article/life-tenure-for-federal-judges-raises-issues-of-senility-dementia
> 
> RR
> 

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From tpetru at gmail.com  Mon Nov  9 13:33:00 2015
From: tpetru at gmail.com (Tomas Overdrive Petru)
Date: Mon, 9 Nov 2015 22:33:00 +0100
Subject: [FORGED] Re: UK To Ban Crypto In Devices, Email And More
In-Reply-To: <563F06AB.2010208@openmailbox.org>
References: <CAD2Ti29w4u9RMOt_gRvWe-vYo_So4R4XyfOYJcqEe_XzPGAL4A@mail.gmail.com>
 <E1ZtgAi-0000Gy-3v@elasmtp-banded.atl.sa.earthlink.net>
 <56391C22.7010101@openmailbox.org>
 <CADrYLAj=8Sd0yOxbppEp=qp8CiLQJfg4PHLY8QmiU=vuQB_uyg@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAOsGNSTC5yOVvSVgtMkzBUraGvtJzYoOrBsTNb_73q_XeG1ijQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <CADrYLAiDiS1hLyfwARG7dtzVd4OLmN4R5-07fTTQpvZ54gMmWQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <9A043F3CF02CD34C8E74AC1594475C73F4B588DC@uxcn10-5.UoA.auckland.ac.nz>
 <CADrYLAg0ZHqG-gvYdBmOrnMfafkv96RFrcy29dKQrjrDHB-0+Q@mail.gmail.com>
 <9A043F3CF02CD34C8E74AC1594475C73F4B59632@uxcn10-5.UoA.auckland.ac.nz>
 <563ebfbb.33268c0a.d899e.ffffcbab@mx.google.com>
 <CADrYLAjdZhORXVodwt_EETwXsAd6eSVT8-PgqyRpaG2yUQYv5w@mail.gmail.com>
 <563eebdf.431a370a.afed.ffffd5ca@mx.google.com>
 <563F06AB.2010208@openmailbox.org>
Message-ID: <5641110C.6060402@gmail.com>

Just question to plenum: do we know, why eg. Enigmail is not standard
part of Thunderbird?
It is extremely confortable and easy way how to encrypt emails.
Same counts for Pidgin and OTR plugin... e.g. Adium do have crypto as
standard part.
Isn't it possible that more we are paranoid about merging plugins to
upstream clients code more barriers we are putting between ordinary user
and crypto?

Btw. I have heard nice thing from one of random people at some musical gig:
"Today young are bunch of idiots they do not care about any system
without *that crypto*"

It made me laugh.

This proposition of law not so much. Is there some legal way how to say
"NO THANK YOU"?

We know already that CCTV is not way to make streets safer place same as
prohibition of drugs will not cause end of its abusing.

IMHO there is no reason to prohibit something in case you want to get a
rid of it. It just does not work.

Regards,
- Over

On 08.11.15 9:24, oshwm wrote:
> Bollocks to Lazy People.
>
> In the UK, when someone learns to drive a car they take an average of 25
> lessons because its not easy to drive a car safely and skillfully.
> After they pass a relatively difficult theory and practical test they
> appreciate that they are now only truly beginning to get to grips with
> the skills required to drive well.
>
> To learn to use GPG/PGP sufficiently to sign and encrypt mail isn't even
> a fraction of the skill level or time required as learning to drive and
> there's plenty of free guides on the internet.
>
> So, the issue is one of motivation, not difficulty.
>
> Can GPG be easier to use, I think so, is it too difficult to use by
> ordinary people - no, they're just too fucking lazy and lack motivation.
>
> You want people to use crypto, scare the fucking living daylights out of
> them about how their governments and corporations are becoming way too
> powerful and just maybe they'll become motivated enough to overcome
> their laziness.
>
> Otherwise, the only option is to make GPG transparent by getting the
> email providers to automatically create key pairs and automatically
> handle signing and encryption by integrating their mail services with
> GPG behind the scenes.
> However, if we wish to promote choice then this isn't a good way to go
> about it.
> This method would also have implications for privacy and anonymity too
> as communications between the email client and mail servers may occur
> when a user is not expecting it.
>
>
> On 08/11/15 06:36, Juan wrote:
>> On Sun, 8 Nov 2015 15:02:46 +1100
>> Joseph Gentle <me at josephg.com> wrote:
>>
>>
>>>>         LMAO
>>>>
>>>>         http://readwrite.com/2014/07/23/apple-ios-backdoor-acknowledgement-support-document
>>> Got anything more recent than July 2014? 
>> 	I don't, though I didn't bother checking. July 2014 isn't too
>> 	ancient anyway. 
>>
>>
>>> Apple has been claiming far
>>> and wide that from iOS 8 even they cannot access the data stored on a
>>> locked device without a password:
>>> http://appleinsider.com/articles/14/09/17/apple-says-incapable-of-decrypting-user-data-with-ios-8-even-for-government-agencies
>> 	Oh, if they so then it must be true =) 
>>
>>
>>> All three APIs listed in that readwrite article require access to
>>> services via USB, which require a device the phone trusts and (I
>>> think) for the device to be unlocked. I would be quite surprised if it
>>> turned out that apple really can decrypt data for the government on
>>> locked devices. They've been quite public about this policy, and
>>> they've claimed they can't access said data under oath. Its also a
>>> fantastic strategic move for them to fight off android - given
>>> google's business model it'll be impossible for android to follow
>>> suit.
>>>
>>> I am about 90-95% confident that there aren't any intentional holes in
>>> iOS through which apple can read data thats only stored on my device.
>> 	Well, I'm 100% confident that a company like apple is not to be
>> 	trusted.
>>
>> 	
>>> (I recently switched from android to iOS for this reason.)
>>>
>> 	Good luck. Out of the fire into the frying pan =P
>>
>>
>>>>> than nearly a quarter century of
>>>>> PGP has, because they've made it usable by the masses.
>>>>>
>>>>         and the proof for that claim is, where?
>>> It was very impressive for its time but what impact has PGP *actually*
>>> made? You seem like a sufficiently paranoid human who knows about PGP,
>>> knows what it does and you're technically capable of installing it and
>>> using it. So tell me - how many encrypted emails do you send and
>>> receive with PGP?
>> 	Very few. However, as far as I know, people who need to
>> 	encrypt stuff that the government isn't supposed to read, say
>> 	people buying and selling 'illegal' drugs, use p/gpg not
>> 	iphones. 
>>
>>  
>>> I think PGP's legacy is that it started a conversation around crypto
>>> and privacy. But as a *product* it was a complete failure. I mean, it
>>> doesn't even protect metadata.
>> 	Well, it's a client-side encryption tool. Nobody can 'encrypt'
>> 	the fact that he sent or received mail. PGP is not a mix
>> 	network...
>>
>> 	And does a company like apple which collects information about
>> 	hundreds of millions of people protect 'metadata' better? 
>>
>> 	Anyway, to expect the likes of apple to actually oppose the
>> 	government (that is to say their partners) is naive at best,
>> 	in my opinion. 
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>> -J
>>>
>>>>> Peter.

-- 
“Borders I have never seen one. But I have heard they exist in the minds of some people.”        
  ―     Thor Heyerdahl 


Telegram................... at over23
facebook...................facebook.com/overdrive23
projects...................https://brmlab.cz/user/overdrive
twitter....................https://twitter.com/#!/over2393
last.fm....................http://www.last.fm/user/overdrive23
GnuPG key FingerPrint......08EA E4DC EF85 0F02 9267 5B48 2E58 6902 C5F8 794C
Public key ................http://overdrive.dronezone.eu/overdrive.txt


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From tpetru at gmail.com  Mon Nov  9 13:33:00 2015
From: tpetru at gmail.com (Tomas Overdrive Petru)
Date: Mon, 9 Nov 2015 22:33:00 +0100
Subject: [FORGED] Re: UK To Ban Crypto In Devices, Email And More
In-Reply-To: <563F06AB.2010208@openmailbox.org>
References: <CAD2Ti29w4u9RMOt_gRvWe-vYo_So4R4XyfOYJcqEe_XzPGAL4A@mail.gmail.com>
 <E1ZtgAi-0000Gy-3v@elasmtp-banded.atl.sa.earthlink.net>
 <56391C22.7010101@openmailbox.org>
 <CADrYLAj=8Sd0yOxbppEp=qp8CiLQJfg4PHLY8QmiU=vuQB_uyg@mail.gmail.com>
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 <CADrYLAiDiS1hLyfwARG7dtzVd4OLmN4R5-07fTTQpvZ54gMmWQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <9A043F3CF02CD34C8E74AC1594475C73F4B588DC@uxcn10-5.UoA.auckland.ac.nz>
 <CADrYLAg0ZHqG-gvYdBmOrnMfafkv96RFrcy29dKQrjrDHB-0+Q@mail.gmail.com>
 <9A043F3CF02CD34C8E74AC1594475C73F4B59632@uxcn10-5.UoA.auckland.ac.nz>
 <563ebfbb.33268c0a.d899e.ffffcbab@mx.google.com>
 <CADrYLAjdZhORXVodwt_EETwXsAd6eSVT8-PgqyRpaG2yUQYv5w@mail.gmail.com>
 <563eebdf.431a370a.afed.ffffd5ca@mx.google.com>
 <563F06AB.2010208@openmailbox.org>
Message-ID: <5641110C.4040005@gmail.com>

Just question to plenum: do we know, why eg. Enigmail is not standard
part of Thunderbird?
It is extremely confortable and easy way how to encrypt emails.
Same counts for Pidgin and OTR plugin... e.g. Adium do have crypto as
standard part.
Isn't it possible that more we are paranoid about merging plugins to
upstream clients code more barriers we are putting between ordinary user
and crypto?

Btw. I have heard nice thing from one of random people at some musical gig:
"Today young are bunch of idiots they do not care about any system
without *that crypto*"

It made me laugh.

This proposition of law not so much. Is there some legal way how to say
"NO THANK YOU"?

We know already that CCTV is not way to make streets safer place same as
prohibition of drugs will not cause end of its abusing.

IMHO there is no reason to prohibit something in case you want to get a
rid of it. It just does not work.

Regards,
- Over

On 08.11.15 9:24, oshwm wrote:
> Bollocks to Lazy People.
>
> In the UK, when someone learns to drive a car they take an average of 25
> lessons because its not easy to drive a car safely and skillfully.
> After they pass a relatively difficult theory and practical test they
> appreciate that they are now only truly beginning to get to grips with
> the skills required to drive well.
>
> To learn to use GPG/PGP sufficiently to sign and encrypt mail isn't even
> a fraction of the skill level or time required as learning to drive and
> there's plenty of free guides on the internet.
>
> So, the issue is one of motivation, not difficulty.
>
> Can GPG be easier to use, I think so, is it too difficult to use by
> ordinary people - no, they're just too fucking lazy and lack motivation.
>
> You want people to use crypto, scare the fucking living daylights out of
> them about how their governments and corporations are becoming way too
> powerful and just maybe they'll become motivated enough to overcome
> their laziness.
>
> Otherwise, the only option is to make GPG transparent by getting the
> email providers to automatically create key pairs and automatically
> handle signing and encryption by integrating their mail services with
> GPG behind the scenes.
> However, if we wish to promote choice then this isn't a good way to go
> about it.
> This method would also have implications for privacy and anonymity too
> as communications between the email client and mail servers may occur
> when a user is not expecting it.
>
>
> On 08/11/15 06:36, Juan wrote:
>> On Sun, 8 Nov 2015 15:02:46 +1100
>> Joseph Gentle <me at josephg.com> wrote:
>>
>>
>>>>         LMAO
>>>>
>>>>         http://readwrite.com/2014/07/23/apple-ios-backdoor-acknowledgement-support-document
>>> Got anything more recent than July 2014? 
>> 	I don't, though I didn't bother checking. July 2014 isn't too
>> 	ancient anyway. 
>>
>>
>>> Apple has been claiming far
>>> and wide that from iOS 8 even they cannot access the data stored on a
>>> locked device without a password:
>>> http://appleinsider.com/articles/14/09/17/apple-says-incapable-of-decrypting-user-data-with-ios-8-even-for-government-agencies
>> 	Oh, if they so then it must be true =) 
>>
>>
>>> All three APIs listed in that readwrite article require access to
>>> services via USB, which require a device the phone trusts and (I
>>> think) for the device to be unlocked. I would be quite surprised if it
>>> turned out that apple really can decrypt data for the government on
>>> locked devices. They've been quite public about this policy, and
>>> they've claimed they can't access said data under oath. Its also a
>>> fantastic strategic move for them to fight off android - given
>>> google's business model it'll be impossible for android to follow
>>> suit.
>>>
>>> I am about 90-95% confident that there aren't any intentional holes in
>>> iOS through which apple can read data thats only stored on my device.
>> 	Well, I'm 100% confident that a company like apple is not to be
>> 	trusted.
>>
>> 	
>>> (I recently switched from android to iOS for this reason.)
>>>
>> 	Good luck. Out of the fire into the frying pan =P
>>
>>
>>>>> than nearly a quarter century of
>>>>> PGP has, because they've made it usable by the masses.
>>>>>
>>>>         and the proof for that claim is, where?
>>> It was very impressive for its time but what impact has PGP *actually*
>>> made? You seem like a sufficiently paranoid human who knows about PGP,
>>> knows what it does and you're technically capable of installing it and
>>> using it. So tell me - how many encrypted emails do you send and
>>> receive with PGP?
>> 	Very few. However, as far as I know, people who need to
>> 	encrypt stuff that the government isn't supposed to read, say
>> 	people buying and selling 'illegal' drugs, use p/gpg not
>> 	iphones. 
>>
>>  
>>> I think PGP's legacy is that it started a conversation around crypto
>>> and privacy. But as a *product* it was a complete failure. I mean, it
>>> doesn't even protect metadata.
>> 	Well, it's a client-side encryption tool. Nobody can 'encrypt'
>> 	the fact that he sent or received mail. PGP is not a mix
>> 	network...
>>
>> 	And does a company like apple which collects information about
>> 	hundreds of millions of people protect 'metadata' better? 
>>
>> 	Anyway, to expect the likes of apple to actually oppose the
>> 	government (that is to say their partners) is naive at best,
>> 	in my opinion. 
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>> -J
>>>
>>>>> Peter.

-- 
“Borders I have never seen one. But I have heard they exist in the minds of some people.”        
  ―     Thor Heyerdahl 


Telegram................... at over23
facebook...................facebook.com/overdrive23
projects...................https://brmlab.cz/user/overdrive
twitter....................https://twitter.com/#!/over2393
last.fm....................http://www.last.fm/user/overdrive23
GnuPG key FingerPrint......08EA E4DC EF85 0F02 9267 5B48 2E58 6902 C5F8 794C
Public key ................http://overdrive.dronezone.eu/overdrive.txt


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From tpetru at gmail.com  Mon Nov  9 13:41:16 2015
From: tpetru at gmail.com (Tomas Overdrive Petru)
Date: Mon, 9 Nov 2015 22:41:16 +0100
Subject: [FORGED] Re: [FORGED] Re: UK To Ban Crypto In Devices, Email And
 More
In-Reply-To: <563F0BB7.4090708@openmailbox.org>
References: <CAD2Ti29w4u9RMOt_gRvWe-vYo_So4R4XyfOYJcqEe_XzPGAL4A@mail.gmail.com>
 <E1ZtgAi-0000Gy-3v@elasmtp-banded.atl.sa.earthlink.net>
 <56391C22.7010101@openmailbox.org>
 <CADrYLAj=8Sd0yOxbppEp=qp8CiLQJfg4PHLY8QmiU=vuQB_uyg@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAOsGNSTC5yOVvSVgtMkzBUraGvtJzYoOrBsTNb_73q_XeG1ijQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <CADrYLAiDiS1hLyfwARG7dtzVd4OLmN4R5-07fTTQpvZ54gMmWQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <9A043F3CF02CD34C8E74AC1594475C73F4B588DC@uxcn10-5.UoA.auckland.ac.nz>
 <CADrYLAg0ZHqG-gvYdBmOrnMfafkv96RFrcy29dKQrjrDHB-0+Q@mail.gmail.com>
 <9A043F3CF02CD34C8E74AC1594475C73F4B59632@uxcn10-5.UoA.auckland.ac.nz>
 <563ebfbb.33268c0a.d899e.ffffcbab@mx.google.com>
 <CADrYLAjdZhORXVodwt_EETwXsAd6eSVT8-PgqyRpaG2yUQYv5w@mail.gmail.com>
 <563eebdf.431a370a.afed.ffffd5ca@mx.google.com>
 <563F06AB.2010208@openmailbox.org>
 <9A043F3CF02CD34C8E74AC1594475C73F4B59971@uxcn10-5.UoA.auckland.ac.nz>
 <563F0BB7.4090708@openmailbox.org>
Message-ID: <564112FC.9030507@gmail.com>

On 08/11/15 08:40, Peter Gutmann wrote:
>> oshwm <oshwm at openmailbox.org> writes:
>>
>>> Can GPG be easier to use, I think so, is it too difficult to use by ordinary
>>> people - no, they're just too fucking lazy and lack motivation.
>> ... and this is pretty much the poster child for why we have so much unusable
>> crypto today.
>>
> Or, why we have such a fucking retarded human race with the attention
> span of a knat who expect everything to be given to them on a plate.
> People have to stop being lazy and start taking an interest and
> responsibility for what goes on in the world around them - your point of
> view re-inforces the dumbing down of the population and the increase in
> power of the Government and big Corps.
>
>> Peter.

Really? So what is purpose of this thread if I can ask? To complain that
ordinary people are sheep?
Whata new approach whata invention.
What do you expect? Why people are so easily pressed and tend to follow
dictators? Why somebody even tend to be solider or why people do eat
meet when it is not necessary.
I know there will be a lot of chain of arguing against controversy of
eating meet now.
Please fck this. We already know, that most of people will never care
about crypto without our help.
I feel mood on this thread as mood of angry barking dog but pretty
toothless. We are not.
We can teach, script and just do it better and without extreme barriers
for people to adopt crypto seamlessly.
We do not need to have it perfect, same as robots are not perfect when
driving. It is just enough to be better than average.
Telegram is step [however crypto is implemented], Open Whisper Systems
is doing huge amount of work.
No reason of this half bitter and half angry tone.
Now it could be right time to stand against nonsense regulation again.
It happened already in time of PIPA, SOPA...
So lets bark on right target not to "ordinary people".

regards,
Over

-- 
“Borders I have never seen one. But I have heard they exist in the minds of some people.”        
  ―     Thor Heyerdahl 


Telegram................... at over23
facebook...................facebook.com/overdrive23
projects...................https://brmlab.cz/user/overdrive
twitter....................https://twitter.com/#!/over2393
last.fm....................http://www.last.fm/user/overdrive23
GnuPG key FingerPrint......08EA E4DC EF85 0F02 9267 5B48 2E58 6902 C5F8 794C
Public key ................http://overdrive.dronezone.eu/overdrive.txt


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From tpetru at gmail.com  Mon Nov  9 13:51:20 2015
From: tpetru at gmail.com (Tomas Overdrive Petru)
Date: Mon, 9 Nov 2015 22:51:20 +0100
Subject: [FORGED] Re: [FORGED] Re: UK To Ban Crypto In Devices, Email And
 More
In-Reply-To: <CADrYLAiWmoZSWhzs4mOonG++NS3t1hMBjArWKf8r7YJg8vmLOA@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAD2Ti29w4u9RMOt_gRvWe-vYo_So4R4XyfOYJcqEe_XzPGAL4A@mail.gmail.com>
 <E1ZtgAi-0000Gy-3v@elasmtp-banded.atl.sa.earthlink.net>
 <56391C22.7010101@openmailbox.org>
 <CADrYLAj=8Sd0yOxbppEp=qp8CiLQJfg4PHLY8QmiU=vuQB_uyg@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAOsGNSTC5yOVvSVgtMkzBUraGvtJzYoOrBsTNb_73q_XeG1ijQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <CADrYLAiDiS1hLyfwARG7dtzVd4OLmN4R5-07fTTQpvZ54gMmWQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <9A043F3CF02CD34C8E74AC1594475C73F4B588DC@uxcn10-5.UoA.auckland.ac.nz>
 <CADrYLAg0ZHqG-gvYdBmOrnMfafkv96RFrcy29dKQrjrDHB-0+Q@mail.gmail.com>
 <9A043F3CF02CD34C8E74AC1594475C73F4B59632@uxcn10-5.UoA.auckland.ac.nz>
 <563ebfbb.33268c0a.d899e.ffffcbab@mx.google.com>
 <CADrYLAjdZhORXVodwt_EETwXsAd6eSVT8-PgqyRpaG2yUQYv5w@mail.gmail.com>
 <563eebdf.431a370a.afed.ffffd5ca@mx.google.com>
 <563F06AB.2010208@openmailbox.org>
 <9A043F3CF02CD34C8E74AC1594475C73F4B59971@uxcn10-5.UoA.auckland.ac.nz>
 <563F0BB7.4090708@openmailbox.org>
 <CADrYLAiWmoZSWhzs4mOonG++NS3t1hMBjArWKf8r7YJg8vmLOA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <56411558.8060105@gmail.com>



On 08.11.15 14:41, Joseph Gentle wrote:
> On Sun, Nov 8, 2015 at 7:45 PM, oshwm <oshwm at openmailbox.org> wrote:
>> On 08/11/15 08:40, Peter Gutmann wrote:
>>> oshwm <oshwm at openmailbox.org> writes:
>>>
>>>> Can GPG be easier to use, I think so, is it too difficult to use by ordinary
>>>> people - no, they're just too fucking lazy and lack motivation.
>>> ... and this is pretty much the poster child for why we have so much unusable
>>> crypto today.
>>>
>> Or, why we have such a fucking retarded human race with the attention
>> span of a knat who expect everything to be given to them on a plate.
>> People have to stop being lazy and start taking an interest and
>> responsibility for what goes on in the world around them - your point of
>> view re-inforces the dumbing down of the population and the increase in
>> power of the Government and big Corps.
> Even if thats all true, its still also true that nobody is using PGP.
> Its easier to make a slick UI than convince people to do work. Is it
> so much to ask that people who make software try to make life easy for
> their users?
>
> For all your talk of doing hard work oshwm, it looks like you only
> created that PGP key yesterday:
> $ gpg --list-packets signature.asc
> hashed subpkt 2 len 4 (sig created 2015-11-08) [...]
>
> And as far as I can tell it hasn't been signed by anyone. At least I
> think so - after 15 minutes fighting with gpg I still can't find your
> actual key and I ran out of care.
>
> ... Which leads me into my second point, which is that here in 2015
> PGP is a terrible technical solution. It doesn't encrypt metadata
> (which is a non-starter these days - who you communicate with is some
> of the *most* valuable personal data for the NSA). It also leaks
> information about who signed your key. That means either:
>
> - Your key gets signed by your friends, so now your friend network public
> or
> - Emails with PGP are provably from you, in a way that can be traced
> back to physically witnessed government ID.
>
> ... Or both! Personally I would rather the possibility of forgery than
> either of those outcomes.
>
> -J
Whata hell of news, that email is not and never ever been secure
communication method. Same as Moxie defined SMS as hell of unsecure
because of metadata.
We know that already no? Same way we know that Web Of Trust is huge leak
of trust and security.
But count with GPG/PGP on long run. It could be important now who are
you talking with but it could be possible that on long run will be
important what are you telling.
Fact is that statistical analysis is bitch and it is pretty hard to hide
all kind of metadata traces you are producing.
Minimalize damage use at least encryption on level of email content.
OTR over facebook chat or Google chat protocol or whatever will leak
same amount of metadata because you share willingly when you are online
sometimes contact or who are you talking with.
This sword have two edges - we want to communicate and mostly socialise
but we do not want to leak who do we make love during lunch break with,
right?
Paranoia is nice and expected thing here but lets think reasonably -
usability versus security.

Of course could be really nice idea to strip all metadata from our
communication on some practical level but lest admit that email will
never be worth that work and it was never ever designed like that.


Regards,
- Over




-- 
“Borders I have never seen one. But I have heard they exist in the minds of some people.”        
  ―     Thor Heyerdahl 


Telegram................... at over23
facebook...................facebook.com/overdrive23
projects...................https://brmlab.cz/user/overdrive
twitter....................https://twitter.com/#!/over2393
last.fm....................http://www.last.fm/user/overdrive23
GnuPG key FingerPrint......08EA E4DC EF85 0F02 9267 5B48 2E58 6902 C5F8 794C
Public key ................http://overdrive.dronezone.eu/overdrive.txt


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From tpetru at gmail.com  Mon Nov  9 14:31:03 2015
From: tpetru at gmail.com (Tomas Overdrive Petru)
Date: Mon, 9 Nov 2015 23:31:03 +0100
Subject: [FORGED] Re: [FORGED] Re: UK To Ban Crypto In Devices, Email And
 More
In-Reply-To: <CAOsGNSRpFbvvYkszwrES5Qq4cLMwOsvDk0hL_Pz1Q_HVqeZhPw@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAD2Ti29w4u9RMOt_gRvWe-vYo_So4R4XyfOYJcqEe_XzPGAL4A@mail.gmail.com>
 <56391C22.7010101@openmailbox.org>
 <CADrYLAj=8Sd0yOxbppEp=qp8CiLQJfg4PHLY8QmiU=vuQB_uyg@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAOsGNSTC5yOVvSVgtMkzBUraGvtJzYoOrBsTNb_73q_XeG1ijQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <CADrYLAiDiS1hLyfwARG7dtzVd4OLmN4R5-07fTTQpvZ54gMmWQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <9A043F3CF02CD34C8E74AC1594475C73F4B588DC@uxcn10-5.UoA.auckland.ac.nz>
 <CADrYLAg0ZHqG-gvYdBmOrnMfafkv96RFrcy29dKQrjrDHB-0+Q@mail.gmail.com>
 <9A043F3CF02CD34C8E74AC1594475C73F4B59632@uxcn10-5.UoA.auckland.ac.nz>
 <563ebfbb.33268c0a.d899e.ffffcbab@mx.google.com>
 <CADrYLAjdZhORXVodwt_EETwXsAd6eSVT8-PgqyRpaG2yUQYv5w@mail.gmail.com>
 <563eebdf.431a370a.afed.ffffd5ca@mx.google.com>
 <563F06AB.2010208@openmailbox.org>
 <9A043F3CF02CD34C8E74AC1594475C73F4B59971@uxcn10-5.UoA.auckland.ac.nz>
 <CAJVRA1SgDqt=jnHidg+9RARFpujPtii0yfZcicDWBznpHWO8WA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAOsGNSRpFbvvYkszwrES5Qq4cLMwOsvDk0hL_Pz1Q_HVqeZhPw@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <56411EA7.9050605@gmail.com>



On 09.11.15 6:41, Zenaan Harkness wrote:
> On 11/9/15, coderman <coderman at gmail.com> wrote:
>> On 11/8/15, Peter Gutmann <pgut001 at cs.auckland.ac.nz> wrote:
>>> oshwm <oshwm at openmailbox.org> writes:
>>>
>>>> Can GPG be easier to use, I think so,
>>>> is it too difficult to use by ordinary people
>>>> - no, they're just too fucking lazy and lack motivation.
>>> ... and this is pretty much the poster child for why we have so much
>>> unusable crypto today.
>>
>> privacy is for all people!
>>  not just the privileged.
>>
>> effective privacy requires utmost usability.
> What, like being able to open all random flash attachments in MSIE on
> Windows, without any awareness of the possible consequences?
Been at the doctor last week and just because I was bored b waiting scan
showed me that his wiifi for patients is shared with is laptop where
medial records are stored and only barrier is WEP.

In one pub I have been all payments transactions are processed through
PC with Windows connected to same net as unencrypted free wiifi
hotspot... everybody with smartphone/notebook and netmap and wireshark
can just read.
...

Fact is that security by obscurity still does work and again it is
double edged sword. In case you will want to have educated masses to
understand technology in the way they understand how vulnerable they are
at that same moment you will find how vulnerable is whole society. It is
probably good idea that normal people do not think about how easy is to
break this glass to just go into somebody house...

Do not be evil is basic rule here. How many sysadmins/sysops have root
password to whatever we are doing? To all of our identities and our
traces. Who of you can download half of today human knowhow just by one
smarter script... imho most of us.

And here we are technological leaders who decided not to fraud and
destroy. This is long time know story about good and about bad.
Common sense here seems like: ok we are good and gov is bad. Partially
agree because gov tend to be bunch of criminals after all [with more or
less visible motives].

Where this idea is heeding? Hard to say, it is not complete yet. But
open source is as important as never before after somebody decided we
are suppose to pay for copyright. Cryptography is more or less public
know how between at least some part of educated people. Kids in pubs are
talking about quality of encrypton of software they have in their smart
devices...

It is not self sustaining system nor gov or criminals are. It is about
work to be done after all. But I tend to be optimistic.

Regards,
- Over

-- 
“Borders I have never seen one. But I have heard they exist in the minds of some people.”        
  ―     Thor Heyerdahl 


Telegram................... at over23
facebook...................facebook.com/overdrive23
projects...................https://brmlab.cz/user/overdrive
twitter....................https://twitter.com/#!/over2393
last.fm....................http://www.last.fm/user/overdrive23
GnuPG key FingerPrint......08EA E4DC EF85 0F02 9267 5B48 2E58 6902 C5F8 794C
Public key ................http://overdrive.dronezone.eu/overdrive.txt


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From tpetru at gmail.com  Mon Nov  9 14:51:57 2015
From: tpetru at gmail.com (Tomas Overdrive Petru)
Date: Mon, 9 Nov 2015 23:51:57 +0100
Subject: UK To Ban Crypto In Devices, Email And More
In-Reply-To: <CAD2Ti29w4u9RMOt_gRvWe-vYo_So4R4XyfOYJcqEe_XzPGAL4A@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAD2Ti29w4u9RMOt_gRvWe-vYo_So4R4XyfOYJcqEe_XzPGAL4A@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <5641238D.5050005@gmail.com>

On 03.11.15 18:27, grarpamp wrote:
> http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/terrorism-in-the-uk/11970391/Internet-firms-to-be-banned-from-offering-out-of-reach-communications-under-new-laws.html
>
> Internet firms to be banned from offering unbreakable encryption under new laws
>
> 3:16PM GMT 02 Nov 2015
>
> Internet and social media companies will be banned from putting
> customer communications beyond their own reach under new laws to be
> unveiled on Wednesday.
> Companies such as Apple, Google and others will no longer be able to
> offer encryption so advanced that even they cannot decipher it when
> asked to, the Daily Telegraph can disclose.
> Measures in the Investigatory Powers Bill will place in law a
> requirement on tech firms and service providers to be able to provide
> unencrypted communications to the police or spy agencies if requested
> through a warrant.

Thinking about connotations of crypto that could be backdoored as
protection against terrorism or some similar stupid rhetoric:
- ok, lets agree we are going to prohibit crypto...
- so every sysop will now return to telnet
- all banks are going to send money over telegraph in pure morse code,
same apply for telco operators - no GSM encryption
...
... no no... I meant it for ordinary people only.

Hmm, and who exactly is that ordinary man or woman? Somebody who do not
have web page, bank account, never used cell phone?
How somebody could logically ban something that we all are using everyday?
Back to that terrorist protection logic: in case we will agree that
normal ordinary people are suspect to be terrorist does it mean that
sysop or banker is not suspected same when we allow to use them strong
crypto?

And one last point that can help as to prove whole nonsense: do we want
to give our imaginary terrorist power to read complete communication of
all of us "ordinary people"?

IMHO during 2WW there was logic: not to tell enemy single word. So lets
reverse this anti-terrorist "logic": We need strong cryptography in
public domain just to protect us ordinary people against potential
terrorist spying.

Regards,
- Over

-- 
“Borders I have never seen one. But I have heard they exist in the minds of some people.”        
  ―     Thor Heyerdahl 


Telegram................... at over23
facebook...................facebook.com/overdrive23
projects...................https://brmlab.cz/user/overdrive
twitter....................https://twitter.com/#!/over2393
last.fm....................http://www.last.fm/user/overdrive23
GnuPG key FingerPrint......08EA E4DC EF85 0F02 9267 5B48 2E58 6902 C5F8 794C
Public key ................http://overdrive.dronezone.eu/overdrive.txt


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From grarpamp at gmail.com  Mon Nov  9 22:29:43 2015
From: grarpamp at gmail.com (grarpamp)
Date: Tue, 10 Nov 2015 01:29:43 -0500
Subject: UK To Ban Crypto In Devices, Email And More
In-Reply-To: <5641238D.5050005@gmail.com>
References: <CAD2Ti29w4u9RMOt_gRvWe-vYo_So4R4XyfOYJcqEe_XzPGAL4A@mail.gmail.com>
 <5641238D.5050005@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAD2Ti2_-gW79iaHQxCMGEyVJK=C93n5OR68nCX0TNk4Fh8N9_w@mail.gmail.com>

On Mon, Nov 9, 2015 at 5:51 PM, Tomas Overdrive Petru <tpetru at gmail.com> wrote:
> Thinking about connotations of crypto that could be backdoored as
> protection against terrorism or some similar stupid rhetoric:

> - so every sysop will now return to telnet

Doesn't apply to govt sysops. Notice how the rhetoric is
also not directed at businesses internally (they're partners),
only to what end users are using.

> - all banks are going to send money over telegraph in pure morse code,

No, they're protected crony class.

> same apply for telco operators - no GSM encryption

As are telcos, and GSM is moot, they have the voice anyway.

> ... no no... I meant it for ordinary people only.
> Hmm, and who exactly is that ordinary man or woman? Somebody who do not
> have web page, bank account, never used cell phone?

Yes, because they have free time to think,
beyond work (taxes) and TV (programming).

> How somebody could logically ban something that we all are using everyday?

Ever hear of book burning? Censorship? Murder? Theft? Etc?
It's really popular with out of control govt and corp entities.

> And one last point that can help as to prove whole nonsense: do we want
> to give our imaginary terrorist power to read complete communication of
> all of us "ordinary people"?

The people are not their real targets, only pawns, thus they don't care
to read their stuff. They're also often not really enemies of each other.

> IMHO during 2WW there was logic: not to tell enemy single word. So lets
> reverse this anti-terrorist "logic": We need strong cryptography in
> public domain just to protect us ordinary people against potential
> terrorist spying.

True, but it's not going to fly as an argument, because
the govt will just tell you that's not your role, *they* will
protect you from everything, now to go back to your TV.

There's an invite-only cabal of
oligarchic dynastic old cronies in place in governments
and mega corporations. Yes, the occaisional motivated
group of attackers "terrists" can cause them and the
populace temporary / containable harm (911 was a joke,
the US should have just rebuilt the buildings identically
as a "fuck you" and moved on, but instead its govt...).
Anyway, what they really fear is that the populace as a
whole will wake up and rise up against their needless
structure, excess, and quiet enslavement. The real reason
they want to spy is to see, regarding them, what you're
thinking and up to, so they can head you off and remain
in power. This is exactly what all governments in history
have done, and the end is showing no signs of being
any different. Just more and more power, all to them,
none for you, until... invasion or revolt.
Pretty sad eh?




From zen at freedbms.net  Mon Nov  9 18:21:26 2015
From: zen at freedbms.net (Zenaan Harkness)
Date: Tue, 10 Nov 2015 02:21:26 +0000
Subject: TPP has provision banning requirements to transfer or access source
 code
Message-ID: <CAOsGNSTTw9xjYt0BKi+NQGjD_F9voKkRrxBnKPRF+MaxHYcs0A@mail.gmail.com>

http://lwn.net/Articles/663817/
"
Knowledge Ecology International looks at Article 14.17 of the
Trans-Pacific Partnership (TPP), which has a provision banning
requirements to transfer or provide access to software source code.
"I'm wondering how the GPL fares here, and how much money Microsoft
spent lobbying to get this included in the TPP, or if the NSA has a
role in this. One aspect of this provision is that governments cannot
insist on source code transparency, for mass market software, even to
address concerns over security or interoperability."




From grarpamp at gmail.com  Mon Nov  9 23:45:15 2015
From: grarpamp at gmail.com (grarpamp)
Date: Tue, 10 Nov 2015 02:45:15 -0500
Subject: [Cryptography] Cryptogit
In-Reply-To: <CAMm+Lwin2BFLKQDorAg7VkiHfcOceYGUFHfq2z+c-4eLJEbFUQ@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAMm+Lwin2BFLKQDorAg7VkiHfcOceYGUFHfq2z+c-4eLJEbFUQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAD2Ti29MCJBZD9OR0aTK-ROGhJYd9KUK7oc6KawkdZuNehZMKg@mail.gmail.com>

On Mon, Nov 9, 2015 at 11:53 PM, Phillip Hallam-Baker
<phill at hallambaker.com> wrote:
> As some folk will know from my facebook feed, I have been struggling
> with git over the past week.
>
> With a considerable amount of hassle, I now have the systems running.
> Its not pretty and there are good reasons for the usability horrors.
> SSH and GIT both bump up against the PKI bootstrap problem when in
> comes to sharing public keys. Fortunately that is the problem I am
> currently working on and git is now one of the applications I hope to
> make a lot easier to use with the Mesh.
>
>
> Anyhoo. Let us imagine for a moment that it is really easy to connect
> up to a git repo in the cloud. On your Google drive or your 1Tb
> OneDrive or whatever.
>
> Wouldn't it be really nice to be able to automatically encrypt the
> data you store in the remote .git repo?

Interesting in the context of using git, particularly regarding
multi-user use of same. Simply using a block storage
provider would suffice to put a filesystem then git on top.

There's another git-like version control system that has some
PKI built in, that may serve as a idea / base for further encryption
work...
http://www.monotone.ca/

> It probably wouldn't be all that hard to arrange either. Just a few
> extensions to the git file format to write out encryption headers into
> each of the object files and encrypt the body.
>
> As folk have noted, proxy re-encryption 'recryption' can be used as
> leverage to simplify the key management problem once a certain patent
> expires in a couple of years.
>
>
> Anyone interested?




From coderman at gmail.com  Tue Nov 10 03:15:22 2015
From: coderman at gmail.com (coderman)
Date: Tue, 10 Nov 2015 03:15:22 -0800
Subject: FOIPA adventures
In-Reply-To: <CAJVRA1Q-aARB1bqZ6k1TWf=kfnSNRiKqeaCa=FAJoFK2bXjd-A@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAJVRA1SaJpNaPQx=s_7VVM==ony2sH0aUG3w11cjNX6escSm8w@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAJVRA1TUfu40206TOzK2kBsgCvbgBYYXmyKZ3E5n4KQuoEtZyg@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAJVRA1QtgMky_hsDLsmFwiXcxE528bZaDOQsjTqqj4tR-dbGBQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAJVRA1RwoyoRs-REWnhGd8cHZM6EJvcziTUDXbU5A6TMigOT6A@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAJVRA1Rwaq1fvE8p-s1JwOANvMc7X2E75bx5eNd4KGJapt6Nuw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAJVRA1TU5Frg3WOJk+3ZFEH0QAFya5xZnwzCfCUE+hL1NhKUFg@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAJVRA1Q0SDo9Fj3KAU9vA3cxR2=7pwcdpO3Ex=yi6g2WtRAg6A@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAJVRA1Srrb08Z9XvG+rYq30p2E_MnhJA6ynOLpdT--6gCvwiyQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAJVRA1RXD2dr16TJZK-MPcJm7nR0Ov=Dp9i5Anf5hKNFs2hq7w@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAJVRA1S97DSPk0NBjgon1LS4HHuGtq_03dqFppUnWq+t61a41A@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAJVRA1SyW_wOUcFUo6STbiePO8HmLV9LgF-PCgugvuPRD_tKWA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAJVRA1QaYYF=hoSQiSd4SHNUj-W6hjEJDhy1KxR9CfFKDgNkew@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAJVRA1TvZxj_qz6_xK8h13LOD-5mE6iNvT9dnThf4ue0_=kY3Q@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAJVRA1RbeuzfiVAOqaZ15p8kr67jxcBoNMOrJkt3K86_=FuVXw@mail.gmail.com>
 <000701d0bcb7$94118e80$bc34ab80$@co.uk>
 <CAJVRA1SE1O-PqmkV8vX=q5j_xs-YFOpH=OLxSvwaT8BBvadQmA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAJVRA1TwM3Re8Tz6NPxp_CeY5C4K3QN+Ceo5VbW3JKMbBABv9g@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAJVRA1SbqTrEbUJ84rLFWdu6+psY5uUzu-ZsVfyUwoSaMRcGdQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAJVRA1RDN6HsLCbF_wsK+zARO9PaEn80R9FSGnWgGVF4XkbbpQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAJVRA1Rt2gKvgnM0MCiqf2Q4vJ8wWxm=KabcQXeBYSqn4zRvKg@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAJVRA1Q95CKTVahkfQeH_pwaGDcgJ-4OL2=9o5ckQrZLG8HeUA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAJVRA1SyX65OE9-7DQ1hP1fGWHxY8rvCqFXhKPu4Oy4o6wt0gg@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAJVRA1SgoLtLFS9AFf_d043AGDVbKp4djDtijDR+zfCRJ8twTA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAJVRA1SvN5ML7TQnOUqz78PhYv8aefz=k8-4fPOwv2uHUVF3_w@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAJVRA1Ry2EV7qaFHmZJ9cjm8-waCNBCzenO9BpqW+YKChEHX7w@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAJVRA1S5juVmB6Ouy0JWbdeJdj9yz0W6tKQDY2q_zi+AC461EA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAJVRA1SYO0ia4VGLwFwZFowkD75YR61MC1TNc1wzHbZtmhy1_w@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAJVRA1SqWMVy6m6KuiJWQQG_6XPWoB+86-p45PWKvfn8wg_jeA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAJVRA1RWaiCZtig6+Seyk-UN9M3h9+2iZ0Otnqb6n=AFcRAeRw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAJVRA1QzHeh=rs0hRf0sugLZdbXvAhK+2Yte5Tbt_Tnv5Tf8mg@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAJVRA1SdAW+36Z8yYTdSFTtz8S8U5aiELv5NiuXg5Rg-vaFYew@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAJVRA1Svk488ax6sd4oy52rfM_u_E1EuzhUAQt6cQ2Jy5yRx5g@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAJVRA1S4=X5P6hKnZu224GjseL5ws1vRm6Gk4gJ+DG06oLjaDA@mail.gmail.com>
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 <CAD2Ti29j9qCnTCBEpaTj9B2NdWpLQoAiT02QzbitiART9tFg6A@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAJVRA1SAOUWi485z=_VRnhLu=EL1c8rVQOvdFz09-P4TjbLHww@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAJVRA1T0E3Lny4YPOjvvCtpSZOmx5dim+nw7e_Zzz-PYXNUAjg@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAJVRA1TtoL+tz0XYxNPSV7oE7HBVWORZ65Og6hrREQzreN6ozw@mail.gmail.com>
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 <CAJVRA1SmqVnWdic5s6f8pk_GxVZ9-hr+d+siOaTWLbtvurk23Q@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAJVRA1Q-aARB1bqZ6k1TWf=kfnSNRiKqeaCa=FAJoFK2bXjd-A@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAJVRA1QCOcWiw8jAPGHka_i1sdNVHEv-=b4_2UUYc1HAOwAcKQ@mail.gmail.com>

new request:
'''
This is a request under the Freedom of Information Act. I hereby
request the following records:

Mission statements, objectives, and staffing counts for each of the
following Naval Research Laboratories in the Information Technology
Division:
• Freespace Communications Testbed
• Mobile Robot Laboratory
• Audio Laboratory
• Mobile Network Modeling Laboratory
• Integrated Communications Technology Test Laboratory
• General Electronics Environmental Test Facility
• Cognitive Radio Test Bed
• Key Management Laboratory
• Cryptographic Technology Laboratory
• Navy Cyber Defense Research Laboratory
• Wireless Security Laboratory
• Navy Shipboard Communications Testbed
• Virtual Reality Laboratory
• Visual Analytics Laboratory
• Immersive Simulation Laboratory
• Warfighter Human-Systems Integration Laboratory
• Motion Imagery Laboratory
• Global Information Grid and Advanced Networking Facility
• Large Data Research Laboratory
• Affiliated Resource Center for High Performance Computing
• Ruth H. Hooker Research Laboratory
'''
 - https://www.muckrock.com/foi/united-states-of-america-10/navystockedlabs-22309/




From moritz at headstrong.de  Mon Nov  9 20:07:48 2015
From: moritz at headstrong.de (mo)
Date: Tue, 10 Nov 2015 05:07:48 +0100
Subject: TPP has provision banning requirements to transfer or access
 source code
In-Reply-To: <CAOsGNSTTw9xjYt0BKi+NQGjD_F9voKkRrxBnKPRF+MaxHYcs0A@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAOsGNSTTw9xjYt0BKi+NQGjD_F9voKkRrxBnKPRF+MaxHYcs0A@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <56416D94.8020808@headstrong.de>

On 11/10/2015 03:21 AM, Zenaan Harkness wrote:
> http://lwn.net/Articles/663817/
> "
> Knowledge Ecology International looks at Article 14.17 of the
> Trans-Pacific Partnership (TPP), which has a provision banning
> requirements to transfer or provide access to software source code.
> "I'm wondering how the GPL fares here, and how much money Microsoft
> spent lobbying to get this included in the TPP, or if the NSA has a
> role in this. One aspect of this provision is that governments cannot
> insist on source code transparency, for mass market software, even to
> address concerns over security or interoperability."

https://sfconservancy.org/blog/2015/nov/09/gpl-tpp/

"The revelation of this clause has confused our community, as it appears
as if this provision, once adopted, might impact or restrict the
international operation of copyleft licenses. Below we explain that,
while everyone should reject and oppose this provision — and the rest of
TPP — this provision has no dramatic impact on copyleft licensing."




From juan.g71 at gmail.com  Tue Nov 10 01:50:25 2015
From: juan.g71 at gmail.com (Juan)
Date: Tue, 10 Nov 2015 06:50:25 -0300
Subject: UK To Ban Crypto In Devices, Email And More
In-Reply-To: <5641A5DD.7010709@gmail.com>
References: <CAD2Ti29w4u9RMOt_gRvWe-vYo_So4R4XyfOYJcqEe_XzPGAL4A@mail.gmail.com>
 <5641238D.5050005@gmail.com>
 <CAD2Ti2_-gW79iaHQxCMGEyVJK=C93n5OR68nCX0TNk4Fh8N9_w@mail.gmail.com>
 <5641A5DD.7010709@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <5641bc41.231b370a.84c5d.3e99@mx.google.com>

On Tue, 10 Nov 2015 09:07:57 +0100
Tomas Overdrive Petru <tpetru at gmail.com> wrote:


> 
> This debate is little bit over edge because of its explicitly
> political. Thing is that I do not believe that in democratic country
> government is something more or other than ordinary people


	Should I buy a TV and start watching TV?  



> What is my point? Discussion and strong arguments even smart
> propaganda can change a lot.
> I've met our first democratic president Vaclav Havel and I tend to
> meet politics during or ofter some civic actions, 

	Not an encouraging sign.



> I have right to
> care and right to discuss things with politics. I could even be one
> of them and there are just people.
> They do not know, they do not understand, they are afraid of ask

	Awww, poor, little, sacks of shit...







From tpetru at gmail.com  Tue Nov 10 00:07:57 2015
From: tpetru at gmail.com (Tomas Overdrive Petru)
Date: Tue, 10 Nov 2015 09:07:57 +0100
Subject: UK To Ban Crypto In Devices, Email And More
In-Reply-To: <CAD2Ti2_-gW79iaHQxCMGEyVJK=C93n5OR68nCX0TNk4Fh8N9_w@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAD2Ti29w4u9RMOt_gRvWe-vYo_So4R4XyfOYJcqEe_XzPGAL4A@mail.gmail.com>
 <5641238D.5050005@gmail.com>
 <CAD2Ti2_-gW79iaHQxCMGEyVJK=C93n5OR68nCX0TNk4Fh8N9_w@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <5641A5DD.7010709@gmail.com>

On 10.11.15 7:29, grarpamp wrote:
> On Mon, Nov 9, 2015 at 5:51 PM, Tomas Overdrive Petru <tpetru at gmail.com> wrote:
>> Thinking about connotations of crypto that could be backdoored as
>> protection against terrorism or some similar stupid rhetoric:
>> - so every sysop will now return to telnet
> Doesn't apply to govt sysops. Notice how the rhetoric is
> also not directed at businesses internally (they're partners),
> only to what end users are using.
>
>> - all banks are going to send money over telegraph in pure morse code,
> No, they're protected crony class.
>
>> same apply for telco operators - no GSM encryption
> As are telcos, and GSM is moot, they have the voice anyway.
>
>> ... no no... I meant it for ordinary people only.
>> Hmm, and who exactly is that ordinary man or woman? Somebody who do not
>> have web page, bank account, never used cell phone?
> Yes, because they have free time to think,
> beyond work (taxes) and TV (programming).
>
>> How somebody could logically ban something that we all are using everyday?
> Ever hear of book burning? Censorship? Murder? Theft? Etc?
> It's really popular with out of control govt and corp entities.
>
>> And one last point that can help as to prove whole nonsense: do we want
>> to give our imaginary terrorist power to read complete communication of
>> all of us "ordinary people"?
> The people are not their real targets, only pawns, thus they don't care
> to read their stuff. They're also often not really enemies of each other.
>
>> IMHO during 2WW there was logic: not to tell enemy single word. So lets
>> reverse this anti-terrorist "logic": We need strong cryptography in
>> public domain just to protect us ordinary people against potential
>> terrorist spying.
> True, but it's not going to fly as an argument, because
> the govt will just tell you that's not your role, *they* will
> protect you from everything, now to go back to your TV.
>
> There's an invite-only cabal of
> oligarchic dynastic old cronies in place in governments
> and mega corporations. Yes, the occaisional motivated
> group of attackers "terrists" can cause them and the
> populace temporary / containable harm (911 was a joke,
> the US should have just rebuilt the buildings identically
> as a "fuck you" and moved on, but instead its govt...).
> Anyway, what they really fear is that the populace as a
> whole will wake up and rise up against their needless
> structure, excess, and quiet enslavement. The real reason
> they want to spy is to see, regarding them, what you're
> thinking and up to, so they can head you off and remain
> in power. This is exactly what all governments in history
> have done, and the end is showing no signs of being
> any different. Just more and more power, all to them,
> none for you, until... invasion or revolt.
> Pretty sad eh?

This debate is little bit over edge because of its explicitly political.
Thing is that I do not believe that in democratic country government is
something more or other than ordinary people [in totalitarianism country
it is little bit different because than government is usually bunch of
mass murders].
What is my point? Discussion and strong arguments even smart propaganda
can change a lot.
I've met our first democratic president Vaclav Havel and I tend to meet
politics during or ofter some civic actions, I have right to care and
right to discuss things with politics. I could even be one of them and
there are just people.
They do not know, they do not understand, they are afraid of ask... as
most or all of us.

We already know that governments will not disappear. That idea is
strongly decentralized and have a lot of side control mechanisms. So we
should count with government same as criminality, drugs, police,
military or violence against woman. It is just here and we should be
prepared not to attack [to read about German RAF could be interesting,
because terrorist managed to be government for some time, or at least
change its decisions, but do we really pour oil in fire of brutality,
is  that really needed?].

So think about governments as about "ordinary people" most of em' will
never be able to sign their email and most of them never used ssh. That
is part of our work, to show them why my argument *fly*, how much
cryptography is needed to have at least some way stable society without
basic holes. I do not care about *system* anymore I care about society
and I do love word citizen. That is what my parents where fighting for
during velvet revolution.

Regards,
- Over




-- 
“Borders I have never seen one. But I have heard they exist in the minds of some people.”        
  ―     Thor Heyerdahl 


Telegram................... at over23
facebook...................facebook.com/overdrive23
projects...................https://brmlab.cz/user/overdrive
twitter....................https://twitter.com/#!/over2393
last.fm....................http://www.last.fm/user/overdrive23
GnuPG key FingerPrint......08EA E4DC EF85 0F02 9267 5B48 2E58 6902 C5F8 794C
Public key ................http://overdrive.dronezone.eu/overdrive.txt


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From coderman at gmail.com  Tue Nov 10 12:44:29 2015
From: coderman at gmail.com (coderman)
Date: Tue, 10 Nov 2015 12:44:29 -0800
Subject: Google's TensorFlow AI Engine... More Power Tools [For Power?]
In-Reply-To: <CAD2Ti29SeYSzp7eUJecizmEnOr2qbFyvinqjxcbBsB7K2_1w-Q@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAD2Ti29SeYSzp7eUJecizmEnOr2qbFyvinqjxcbBsB7K2_1w-Q@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAJVRA1TOFS-96KyR0Dn8aJxLcMC+DWzKLoCRwfJXsyTV+tuJtg@mail.gmail.com>

On 11/10/15, grarpamp <grarpamp at gmail.com> wrote:
> ...
> More power tools, who is wielding them, why, and who benefits?


useful in the hands of every earth human,
 fully decentralize all the deep things!


[ my first attempt to bring machine learning and natural language
processing to bear on oversight and transparency was not a success,
but i'm more convinced than ever of the value of this technique - big
data deep learning in your pocket - for empowering citizens to hold
their government and public servants to account. ]


best regards,




From Rayzer at riseup.net  Tue Nov 10 13:11:55 2015
From: Rayzer at riseup.net (Razer)
Date: Tue, 10 Nov 2015 13:11:55 -0800
Subject: Google's TensorFlow AI Engine... More Power Tools [For Power?]
In-Reply-To: <CAD2Ti29SeYSzp7eUJecizmEnOr2qbFyvinqjxcbBsB7K2_1w-Q@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAD2Ti29SeYSzp7eUJecizmEnOr2qbFyvinqjxcbBsB7K2_1w-Q@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <56425D9B.1070107@riseup.net>



On 11/10/2015 11:50 AM, grarpamp wrote:
>
> http://www.tensorflow.org/
> http://www.wired.com/2015/11/google-open-sources-its-artificial-intelligence-engine/
> Google had unveiled its personal photos app earlier in the day, and
> O’Reilly marveled that if he typed something like “gravestone” into
> the search box, the app could find a photo of his uncle’s grave, taken
> so long ago. More power tools, who is wielding them, why, and who
> benefits? Does the nobody down the street benefit besides gravestones?
> How?

The tensorflow site... Cloudflare-stalked. The tutorials page has so
much javscript on it NoScript shows a blank page if you go there. They
want to know who wants to know...

RR

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From Rayzer at riseup.net  Tue Nov 10 13:14:50 2015
From: Rayzer at riseup.net (Razer)
Date: Tue, 10 Nov 2015 13:14:50 -0800
Subject: UK To Ban Crypto In Devices, Email And More
In-Reply-To: <56424872.10848c0a.6152b.ffff9370@mx.google.com>
References: <CAD2Ti29w4u9RMOt_gRvWe-vYo_So4R4XyfOYJcqEe_XzPGAL4A@mail.gmail.com>
 <5641238D.5050005@gmail.com>
 <CAD2Ti2_-gW79iaHQxCMGEyVJK=C93n5OR68nCX0TNk4Fh8N9_w@mail.gmail.com>
 <5641A5DD.7010709@gmail.com>
 <CAD2Ti2-tcwFvCUvpLQX=tOQssw_uqmQQ=_yd7w0YOz3DWuuMQg@mail.gmail.com>
 <56424872.10848c0a.6152b.ffff9370@mx.google.com>
Message-ID: <56425E4A.7080900@riseup.net>



On 11/10/2015 11:48 AM, Juan wrote:
>
> 	"UK To Ban Crypto In Devices, Email And More" 
>
>
> 	So, as a result of the snowden affair and all the work done by
> 	privacy advocates, the uk gov't is taking even more steps to
> 	track its subjects/human cattle? 
>
> 	Am I missing something?
>

Don't know if you're 'missing something' but the UK is 'missing' a 'bill
of rights'.

UK citizens have no inalienable right to privacy, even in the form of
empty words.

RR

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From coderman at gmail.com  Tue Nov 10 13:22:55 2015
From: coderman at gmail.com (coderman)
Date: Tue, 10 Nov 2015 13:22:55 -0800
Subject: Google's TensorFlow AI Engine... More Power Tools [For Power?]
In-Reply-To: <56425D9B.1070107@riseup.net>
References: <CAD2Ti29SeYSzp7eUJecizmEnOr2qbFyvinqjxcbBsB7K2_1w-Q@mail.gmail.com>
 <56425D9B.1070107@riseup.net>
Message-ID: <CAJVRA1S0caGpUiAFV+LuR5mJ7v+9i=p=iarTdDX_H9my3Vd-cA@mail.gmail.com>

On 11/10/15, Razer <Rayzer at riseup.net> wrote:
> ...
> The tensorflow site... Cloudflare-stalked.


get the source, Luke!
  git clone https://github.com/tensorflow/tensorflow.git




From grarpamp at gmail.com  Tue Nov 10 11:16:08 2015
From: grarpamp at gmail.com (grarpamp)
Date: Tue, 10 Nov 2015 14:16:08 -0500
Subject: UK To Ban Crypto In Devices, Email And More
In-Reply-To: <5641A5DD.7010709@gmail.com>
References: <CAD2Ti29w4u9RMOt_gRvWe-vYo_So4R4XyfOYJcqEe_XzPGAL4A@mail.gmail.com>
 <5641238D.5050005@gmail.com>
 <CAD2Ti2_-gW79iaHQxCMGEyVJK=C93n5OR68nCX0TNk4Fh8N9_w@mail.gmail.com>
 <5641A5DD.7010709@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAD2Ti2-tcwFvCUvpLQX=tOQssw_uqmQQ=_yd7w0YOz3DWuuMQg@mail.gmail.com>

On Tue, Nov 10, 2015 at 3:07 AM, Tomas Overdrive Petru <tpetru at gmail.com> wrote:
> Thing is that I do not believe that in democratic country government is
> something more or other than ordinary people

Then there is no reason for elections or politics. Just fire all
current officeholders
and rewrite constitutions to select term limited replacements at random from the
entire population. Elections and parties are just a TV show, that's why they're
on TV and promoted like the WWF.




From coderman at gmail.com  Tue Nov 10 14:19:49 2015
From: coderman at gmail.com (coderman)
Date: Tue, 10 Nov 2015 14:19:49 -0800
Subject: FOIPA adventures
In-Reply-To: <5642626e.16908c0a.a171c.ffffa1a7@mx.google.com>
References: <CAJVRA1SaJpNaPQx=s_7VVM==ony2sH0aUG3w11cjNX6escSm8w@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAJVRA1S4=X5P6hKnZu224GjseL5ws1vRm6Gk4gJ+DG06oLjaDA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAJVRA1RsgoKvADCcRz76vj1xjT+EQDB96tw7-sgg_pf+BGzA=A@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAJVRA1TOMYnBh0-B=uh6n2HsOsFdY+SKVG-=XqKi6WPNro++PA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAJVRA1Qao1qE2kBSbb_V5NPQ7PF--VFnYQpc=08wY2_ZURz4hg@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAJVRA1S45TEydVoKDxW9SfC0DKcSdxB_HfjrvcZQjU5uymfFOQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAD2Ti29j9qCnTCBEpaTj9B2NdWpLQoAiT02QzbitiART9tFg6A@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAJVRA1SAOUWi485z=_VRnhLu=EL1c8rVQOvdFz09-P4TjbLHww@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAJVRA1T0E3Lny4YPOjvvCtpSZOmx5dim+nw7e_Zzz-PYXNUAjg@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAJVRA1TtoL+tz0XYxNPSV7oE7HBVWORZ65Og6hrREQzreN6ozw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAJVRA1TbbVJ-88nHq0GKMhS5Z3GQ+=jCqv2E49FS=4L2+xQeFg@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAJVRA1SmqVnWdic5s6f8pk_GxVZ9-hr+d+siOaTWLbtvurk23Q@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAJVRA1Q-aARB1bqZ6k1TWf=kfnSNRiKqeaCa=FAJoFK2bXjd-A@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAJVRA1QCOcWiw8jAPGHka_i1sdNVHEv-=b4_2UUYc1HAOwAcKQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <5642626e.16908c0a.a171c.ffffa1a7@mx.google.com>
Message-ID: <CAJVRA1TGze5ApiZR_=0-sXWX5TvsLajxY6z8eUeWyhAE131vLg@mail.gmail.com>

On 11/10/15, Juan <juan.g71 at gmail.com> wrote:
> ...
> 	So coderman, you've been doing this for months. What useful
> 	information have your masters graciously given you so far?


the full retrospective at 1yr mark in January, however, useful aspects so far:

- wide variety of requests and processing activity, which is useful
for discerning aspects of FOIA processing at agencies of interest.

- learned indicators of obfuscation or delay, which in turn is signal
to dig deeper, aggressively appeal and follow up.

- used specific requests as leverage to open up additional
information. E.g. the laser specific "Count of Kingfish devices" which
returned counts, while purchase orders and other details around
Stingrays and cell site simulators in general get a Glomar.

- other tidbits of varying interest. E.g. the multiple MuckRock
articles making use of my responsive documents.


[ all this in turn useful for sekrit $full_auto_FOIA project :]



that answer your question?




From grarpamp at gmail.com  Tue Nov 10 11:50:37 2015
From: grarpamp at gmail.com (grarpamp)
Date: Tue, 10 Nov 2015 14:50:37 -0500
Subject: Google's TensorFlow AI Engine... More Power Tools [For Power?]
Message-ID: <CAD2Ti29SeYSzp7eUJecizmEnOr2qbFyvinqjxcbBsB7K2_1w-Q@mail.gmail.com>

http://www.tensorflow.org/
http://www.wired.com/2015/11/google-open-sources-its-artificial-intelligence-engine/
Google had unveiled its personal photos app earlier in the day, and
O’Reilly marveled that if he typed something like “gravestone” into
the search box, the app could find a photo of his uncle’s grave, taken
so long ago.

More power tools, who is wielding them, why, and who benefits?
Does the nobody down the street benefit besides gravestones? How?




From coderman at gmail.com  Tue Nov 10 15:47:17 2015
From: coderman at gmail.com (coderman)
Date: Tue, 10 Nov 2015 15:47:17 -0800
Subject: FOIPA adventures
In-Reply-To: <56427f47.c448370a.4f974.ffffb1ca@mx.google.com>
References: <CAJVRA1SaJpNaPQx=s_7VVM==ony2sH0aUG3w11cjNX6escSm8w@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAJVRA1TOMYnBh0-B=uh6n2HsOsFdY+SKVG-=XqKi6WPNro++PA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAJVRA1Qao1qE2kBSbb_V5NPQ7PF--VFnYQpc=08wY2_ZURz4hg@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAJVRA1S45TEydVoKDxW9SfC0DKcSdxB_HfjrvcZQjU5uymfFOQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAD2Ti29j9qCnTCBEpaTj9B2NdWpLQoAiT02QzbitiART9tFg6A@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAJVRA1SAOUWi485z=_VRnhLu=EL1c8rVQOvdFz09-P4TjbLHww@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAJVRA1T0E3Lny4YPOjvvCtpSZOmx5dim+nw7e_Zzz-PYXNUAjg@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAJVRA1TtoL+tz0XYxNPSV7oE7HBVWORZ65Og6hrREQzreN6ozw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAJVRA1TbbVJ-88nHq0GKMhS5Z3GQ+=jCqv2E49FS=4L2+xQeFg@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAJVRA1SmqVnWdic5s6f8pk_GxVZ9-hr+d+siOaTWLbtvurk23Q@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAJVRA1Q-aARB1bqZ6k1TWf=kfnSNRiKqeaCa=FAJoFK2bXjd-A@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAJVRA1QCOcWiw8jAPGHka_i1sdNVHEv-=b4_2UUYc1HAOwAcKQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <5642626e.16908c0a.a171c.ffffa1a7@mx.google.com>
 <CAJVRA1TGze5ApiZR_=0-sXWX5TvsLajxY6z8eUeWyhAE131vLg@mail.gmail.com>
 <56427f47.c448370a.4f974.ffffb1ca@mx.google.com>
Message-ID: <CAJVRA1SbCudvr6hufymDkP6PGW97SEkkZx6=-EtN1fHyETpRPg@mail.gmail.com>

On 11/10/15, Juan <juan.g71 at gmail.com> wrote:
> ...
>> - wide variety of requests and processing activity, which is useful
>> for discerning aspects of FOIA processing at agencies of interest.
>
> 	f1 { so you got information regarding how the
> 	information-denying bureaucracy works?  }

exactly. for example, it used to be you could request "Processing
Notes" for a request, and this metadata about processing the request
was handed over as dry and useless.

now they refuse all requests for processing notes, and you must always
appeal.  this is done because some of the proc notes showed how
responsive documents were "overlooked" conveniently by special
interpretation of the request. E.g. their bullshit got caught out :)



>> - learned indicators of obfuscation or delay, which in turn is signal
>> to dig deeper, aggressively appeal and follow up.
>
> 	f1 ()

this might be delays, making you wait for responsive documents until
after "public interest" has waned. or your interest, for that matter.

or it might be undercover feds in crown vics following you around ridiculously.

or it gets bounced around a few FOIA people inside the agency to find
the best way to provide the least information.

or ...



last but not least, i also learned it is near impossible to use
MuckRock for personal Privacy Act requests about your person. still
need to re-submit with legal counsel...


best regards,




From grarpamp at gmail.com  Tue Nov 10 13:12:45 2015
From: grarpamp at gmail.com (grarpamp)
Date: Tue, 10 Nov 2015 16:12:45 -0500
Subject: Google's TensorFlow AI Engine... More Power Tools [For Power?]
In-Reply-To: <CAJVRA1TOFS-96KyR0Dn8aJxLcMC+DWzKLoCRwfJXsyTV+tuJtg@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAD2Ti29SeYSzp7eUJecizmEnOr2qbFyvinqjxcbBsB7K2_1w-Q@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAJVRA1TOFS-96KyR0Dn8aJxLcMC+DWzKLoCRwfJXsyTV+tuJtg@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAD2Ti28GSV6ZK6WXyY+8kWkELfPPEo69=zEax6o+3CH-0rQRQg@mail.gmail.com>

On Tue, Nov 10, 2015 at 3:44 PM, coderman <coderman at gmail.com> wrote:
> but i'm more convinced than ever of the value of this technique
> big data deep learning in your pocket

Waiting for it to bring me the canary from the coalmine
so I may ask it what it saw deep down in that rabbit hole.

> for empowering citizens to hold
> their government and public servants to account.

But one of many holes.




From tbiehn at gmail.com  Tue Nov 10 13:21:53 2015
From: tbiehn at gmail.com (Travis Biehn)
Date: Tue, 10 Nov 2015 16:21:53 -0500
Subject: Google's TensorFlow AI Engine... More Power Tools [For Power?]
In-Reply-To: <56425D9B.1070107@riseup.net>
References: <CAD2Ti29SeYSzp7eUJecizmEnOr2qbFyvinqjxcbBsB7K2_1w-Q@mail.gmail.com>
 <56425D9B.1070107@riseup.net>
Message-ID: <CAKtE3zfGFdvFkABkabNS8GCwu4Gp_1xqSOtweZFLWJGP0=DrOA@mail.gmail.com>

On Tue, Nov 10, 2015 at 4:11 PM, Razer <Rayzer at riseup.net> wrote:

>
>
> On 11/10/2015 11:50 AM, grarpamp wrote:
> >
> > http://www.tensorflow.org/
> >
> http://www.wired.com/2015/11/google-open-sources-its-artificial-intelligence-engine/
> > Google had unveiled its personal photos app earlier in the day, and
> > O’Reilly marveled that if he typed something like “gravestone” into
> > the search box, the app could find a photo of his uncle’s grave, taken
> > so long ago. More power tools, who is wielding them, why, and who
> > benefits? Does the nobody down the street benefit besides gravestones?
> > How?
>
> The tensorflow site... Cloudflare-stalked. The tutorials page has so
> much javscript on it NoScript shows a blank page if you go there. They
> want to know who wants to know...
>
> RR
>
> Ahh,
That 'AI' enthusiast extremist demographic. TLAs are all over it, brah.

-Travis

-- 
Twitter <https://twitter.com/tbiehn> | LinkedIn
<http://www.linkedin.com/in/travisbiehn> | GitHub <http://github.com/tbiehn>
| TravisBiehn.com <http://www.travisbiehn.com> | Google Plus
<https://plus.google.com/+TravisBiehn>
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From juan.g71 at gmail.com  Tue Nov 10 11:48:39 2015
From: juan.g71 at gmail.com (Juan)
Date: Tue, 10 Nov 2015 16:48:39 -0300
Subject: UK To Ban Crypto In Devices, Email And More
In-Reply-To: <CAD2Ti2-tcwFvCUvpLQX=tOQssw_uqmQQ=_yd7w0YOz3DWuuMQg@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAD2Ti29w4u9RMOt_gRvWe-vYo_So4R4XyfOYJcqEe_XzPGAL4A@mail.gmail.com>
 <5641238D.5050005@gmail.com>
 <CAD2Ti2_-gW79iaHQxCMGEyVJK=C93n5OR68nCX0TNk4Fh8N9_w@mail.gmail.com>
 <5641A5DD.7010709@gmail.com>
 <CAD2Ti2-tcwFvCUvpLQX=tOQssw_uqmQQ=_yd7w0YOz3DWuuMQg@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <56424872.10848c0a.6152b.ffff9370@mx.google.com>



	"UK To Ban Crypto In Devices, Email And More" 


	So, as a result of the snowden affair and all the work done by
	privacy advocates, the uk gov't is taking even more steps to
	track its subjects/human cattle? 

	Am I missing something?




From grarpamp at gmail.com  Tue Nov 10 14:28:34 2015
From: grarpamp at gmail.com (grarpamp)
Date: Tue, 10 Nov 2015 17:28:34 -0500
Subject: FOIPA adventures
In-Reply-To: <CAJVRA1TGze5ApiZR_=0-sXWX5TvsLajxY6z8eUeWyhAE131vLg@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAJVRA1SaJpNaPQx=s_7VVM==ony2sH0aUG3w11cjNX6escSm8w@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAJVRA1S4=X5P6hKnZu224GjseL5ws1vRm6Gk4gJ+DG06oLjaDA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAJVRA1RsgoKvADCcRz76vj1xjT+EQDB96tw7-sgg_pf+BGzA=A@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAJVRA1TOMYnBh0-B=uh6n2HsOsFdY+SKVG-=XqKi6WPNro++PA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAJVRA1Qao1qE2kBSbb_V5NPQ7PF--VFnYQpc=08wY2_ZURz4hg@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAJVRA1S45TEydVoKDxW9SfC0DKcSdxB_HfjrvcZQjU5uymfFOQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAD2Ti29j9qCnTCBEpaTj9B2NdWpLQoAiT02QzbitiART9tFg6A@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAJVRA1SAOUWi485z=_VRnhLu=EL1c8rVQOvdFz09-P4TjbLHww@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAJVRA1T0E3Lny4YPOjvvCtpSZOmx5dim+nw7e_Zzz-PYXNUAjg@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAJVRA1TtoL+tz0XYxNPSV7oE7HBVWORZ65Og6hrREQzreN6ozw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAJVRA1TbbVJ-88nHq0GKMhS5Z3GQ+=jCqv2E49FS=4L2+xQeFg@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAJVRA1SmqVnWdic5s6f8pk_GxVZ9-hr+d+siOaTWLbtvurk23Q@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAJVRA1Q-aARB1bqZ6k1TWf=kfnSNRiKqeaCa=FAJoFK2bXjd-A@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAJVRA1QCOcWiw8jAPGHka_i1sdNVHEv-=b4_2UUYc1HAOwAcKQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <5642626e.16908c0a.a171c.ffffa1a7@mx.google.com>
 <CAJVRA1TGze5ApiZR_=0-sXWX5TvsLajxY6z8eUeWyhAE131vLg@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAD2Ti2_O_DuKDeNLmBXig_UyKR1bOo6yzWNygKab3LQOA=XJjw@mail.gmail.com>

On Tue, Nov 10, 2015 at 5:19 PM, coderman <coderman at gmail.com> wrote:
> - learned indicators of obfuscation or delay, which in turn is signal

Metadata often more useful than data.... classic.

> [ all this in turn useful for sekrit $full_auto_FOIA project :]

Tensor tentacles reaching out from bigdata to give warm fuzzies.




From grarpamp at gmail.com  Tue Nov 10 15:26:11 2015
From: grarpamp at gmail.com (grarpamp)
Date: Tue, 10 Nov 2015 18:26:11 -0500
Subject: DropZone: An Anonymous Peer-To-Peer Local Contraband Marketplace
In-Reply-To: <CAD2Ti2_BeCJByc=MkOm=dUa-4fG+bx89nH95CSiOhbpC+emsjA@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAD2Ti2_BeCJByc=MkOm=dUa-4fG+bx89nH95CSiOhbpC+emsjA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAD2Ti2_k=rvnjdjVEbSR1jt0_HYfFrnfKS-feUO-NPv-XdSusw@mail.gmail.com>

http://www.dailydot.com/politics/psyco-ukraine-dark-net-market-dead-drop/

The Dark Net drug market that survived Ukraine's civil war
The package was left there by a dealer known online as Brooklyn Flea
Shop. The product was easy to find for the buyer, someone who goes by
the alias of Mahadeva, the name of both the Great God of Hinduism and
a legendary evildoer in Buddhism.
Like most Dark Net markets, PsyCo exists as a hidden website on Tor.
The Dark Net’s lingua franca has always been English. But for the last
three years, small but steadily surviving localized markets in Eastern
Europe and Eastern Asia are opening up anonymous trade to potentially
hundreds of millions of Internet users who converse in languages like
Chinese, Russian, and Ukrainian. The actual active number of
non-English-speaking users right now appears to be much smaller, but
it's clear the Dark Net has room to grow.
In the markets of Russia and Ukraine, dead drops have become cheap and
quick alternatives to the classic Dark Net tactic of postal smuggling.




From juan.g71 at gmail.com  Tue Nov 10 13:39:30 2015
From: juan.g71 at gmail.com (Juan)
Date: Tue, 10 Nov 2015 18:39:30 -0300
Subject: FOIPA adventures
In-Reply-To: <CAJVRA1QCOcWiw8jAPGHka_i1sdNVHEv-=b4_2UUYc1HAOwAcKQ@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAJVRA1SaJpNaPQx=s_7VVM==ony2sH0aUG3w11cjNX6escSm8w@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAJVRA1S4=X5P6hKnZu224GjseL5ws1vRm6Gk4gJ+DG06oLjaDA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAJVRA1RsgoKvADCcRz76vj1xjT+EQDB96tw7-sgg_pf+BGzA=A@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAJVRA1TOMYnBh0-B=uh6n2HsOsFdY+SKVG-=XqKi6WPNro++PA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAJVRA1Qao1qE2kBSbb_V5NPQ7PF--VFnYQpc=08wY2_ZURz4hg@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAJVRA1S45TEydVoKDxW9SfC0DKcSdxB_HfjrvcZQjU5uymfFOQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAD2Ti29j9qCnTCBEpaTj9B2NdWpLQoAiT02QzbitiART9tFg6A@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAJVRA1SAOUWi485z=_VRnhLu=EL1c8rVQOvdFz09-P4TjbLHww@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAJVRA1T0E3Lny4YPOjvvCtpSZOmx5dim+nw7e_Zzz-PYXNUAjg@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAJVRA1TtoL+tz0XYxNPSV7oE7HBVWORZ65Og6hrREQzreN6ozw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAJVRA1TbbVJ-88nHq0GKMhS5Z3GQ+=jCqv2E49FS=4L2+xQeFg@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAJVRA1SmqVnWdic5s6f8pk_GxVZ9-hr+d+siOaTWLbtvurk23Q@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAJVRA1Q-aARB1bqZ6k1TWf=kfnSNRiKqeaCa=FAJoFK2bXjd-A@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAJVRA1QCOcWiw8jAPGHka_i1sdNVHEv-=b4_2UUYc1HAOwAcKQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <5642626e.16908c0a.a171c.ffffa1a7@mx.google.com>

On Tue, 10 Nov 2015 03:15:22 -0800
coderman <coderman at gmail.com> wrote:

> new request:
> '''
> This is a request under the Freedom of Information Act. I hereby
> request the following records:


	So coderman, you've been doing this for months. What useful
	information have your masters graciously given you so far? 

	




From grarpamp at gmail.com  Tue Nov 10 15:54:30 2015
From: grarpamp at gmail.com (grarpamp)
Date: Tue, 10 Nov 2015 18:54:30 -0500
Subject: UK To Demand Backdooring Else Prison [Crypto In Devices,
 Email And More]
Message-ID: <CAD2Ti28DpM5SDeOh35qS3sjKeauyvYVtKZybVY9kEG7BjkZhjg@mail.gmail.com>

http://arstechnica.co.uk/tech-policy/2015/11/snoopers-charter-uk-govt-can-demand-backdoors-give-prison-sentences-for-disclosing-them/

Buried in the 300 pages of the draft Investigatory Powers Bill (aka
the Snooper's Charter), published on Wednesday, is something called a
"technical capability notice" (Section 189). Despite its
neutral-sounding name, this gives the UK's home secretary almost
unlimited power to impose "an obligation on any relevant
operators"—any obligation—subject to the requirement that "the
Secretary of State considers it is reasonable to do so."

There is also the proviso that "it is (and remains) practicable for
those relevant operators to comply with those requirements," which
probably rules out breaking end-to-end encryption, but would still
allow the home secretary to demand that companies add backdoors to
their software and equipment.

That's bad enough, but George Danezis, an associate professor in
security and privacy engineering at University College London, points
out that the Snooper's Charter is actually much, much worse.




From oshwm at openmailbox.org  Tue Nov 10 11:11:22 2015
From: oshwm at openmailbox.org (oshwm)
Date: Tue, 10 Nov 2015 19:11:22 +0000
Subject: [FORGED] Re: [FORGED] Re: UK To Ban Crypto In Devices, Email
 And More
In-Reply-To: <D2679B1B.C66E%stephan.neuhaus@zhaw.ch>
References: <CAD2Ti29w4u9RMOt_gRvWe-vYo_So4R4XyfOYJcqEe_XzPGAL4A@mail.gmail.com>
 <56391C22.7010101@openmailbox.org>
 <CADrYLAj=8Sd0yOxbppEp=qp8CiLQJfg4PHLY8QmiU=vuQB_uyg@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAOsGNSTC5yOVvSVgtMkzBUraGvtJzYoOrBsTNb_73q_XeG1ijQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <CADrYLAiDiS1hLyfwARG7dtzVd4OLmN4R5-07fTTQpvZ54gMmWQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <9A043F3CF02CD34C8E74AC1594475C73F4B588DC@uxcn10-5.UoA.auckland.ac.nz>
 <CADrYLAg0ZHqG-gvYdBmOrnMfafkv96RFrcy29dKQrjrDHB-0+Q@mail.gmail.com>
 <9A043F3CF02CD34C8E74AC1594475C73F4B59632@uxcn10-5.UoA.auckland.ac.nz>
 <563ebfbb.33268c0a.d899e.ffffcbab@mx.google.com>
 <CADrYLAjdZhORXVodwt_EETwXsAd6eSVT8-PgqyRpaG2yUQYv5w@mail.gmail.com>
 <563eebdf.431a370a.afed.ffffd5ca@mx.google.com>
 <563F06AB.2010208@openmailbox.org>
 <9A043F3CF02CD34C8E74AC1594475C73F4B59971@uxcn10-5.UoA.auckland.ac.nz>
 <563F0BB7.4090708@openmailbox.org> <D266194A.C5D4%stephan.neuhaus@zhaw.ch>
 <5640FE39.6020908@openmailbox.org> <D2679B1B.C66E%stephan.neuhaus@zhaw.ch>
Message-ID: <5642415A.1000302@openmailbox.org>



On 10/11/15 12:29, Neuhaus Stephan (neut) wrote:
> On 2015-11-09 21:12, "oshwm" <oshwm at openmailbox.org> wrote:
>> On 09/11/15 08:38, Neuhaus Stephan (neut) wrote:
>>> On 2015-11-08 09:45, "cypherpunks on behalf of oshwm"
>>> <cypherpunks-bounces at cpunks.org on behalf of oshwm at openmailbox.org>
>>> wrote:
>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> On 08/11/15 08:40, Peter Gutmann wrote:
>>>>> oshwm <oshwm at openmailbox.org> writes:
>>>>>
>>>>>> Can GPG be easier to use, I think so, is it too difficult to use by
>>>>>> ordinary
>>>>>> people - no, they're just too fucking lazy and lack motivation.
>>>>>
>>>>> ... and this is pretty much the poster child for why we have so much
>>>>> unusable
>>>>> crypto today.
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Or, why we have such a fucking retarded human race with the attention
>>>> span of a knat who expect everything to be given to them on a plate.
>>>
>>> I think you're rather making Peter's point for him.
>>>
>>> Case in point: Would you care to try to explain to my dad (who is 76)
>>> what
>>> an expired PGP key means, exactly? What a trusted key is?  Hell, what a
>>> public key is, even? How a PGP plaintext signature could have failed to
>>> verify? (In this context, don't forget to explain to him the difference
>>> between UTF-8 and ISO 8859-1.) Hint: an attitude of "well, you just have
>>> to learn all these new concepts, you fucking retarded human with the
>>> attention span of a knat" is probably not going to help.
>>>
>>
>> I feel sorry for your dad, having a child that thinks so little of his
>> mental capacity.
> 
> I guess that’s what I get for choosing an example that makes the
> ad-hominem too easy.
> 

You see, I didn't know what ad hominem mean't so I had a choice, I could
wait for someone to explain it all to me or I could go and find out the
meaning for myself - which I did :P

>> If your dad can operate Windows and an email client then he has what is
>> needed to learn enough to sign and encrypt emails with GnuPG.
>> He doesn't need to know how crypto works or every minute detail, he just
>> needs to be able to make sense of a Wizard and to be able to click a few
>> buttons.
> 
> I don’t think that’s true, and the reason is that it’s not enough to learn
> the right sequence of buttons to press. You’re right: learning to press
> some buttons in the right sequence is the easy part. The tricky part
> happens when an error occurs, e.g., when a signature fails to verify. And
> signatures can fail to verify for a huge number of reasons and an
> Enigmail-style user interface will simply expose them to the user.
> Without a correct mental model—which goes beyond knowing button
> sequences—no one will be able to make a correct assessment of an error
> situation, no matter what the age, education, or mental capacity.
> 
>> He'll be at a disadvantage for not learning more about crypto and PGP
>> but he'll be able to maintain a small amount of privacy in his use of
>> email.
> 
> Only when things go right. And only if he cares enough. If there was some
> automated mechanism that would do all of these things automatically in the
> background, he could be using encrypted email without even knowing it.
> Like Skype, who at one time provided encrypted video and voice chat
> without users even being aware. That did more for security than exposing
> all the intricate details through an Enigmail-style UI.
> 

Skype: centralized authentication by a third party corporation - you
don't have to do any authentication for yourself, you just have to trust
that Microsoft will never act in a way inconsistent with your privacy or
freedom.

PGP: decentralized authentication where the amount of trust you have in
the certificates is fully under your control. But with this control
comes complexity because you don't have some benevolent overlord taking
care of your every need.

Take your pick, personally I don't trust big corporations and for that
reason will accept the extra complexity.

>> When he gets stuck he might be able to ask his son or daughter for help
> 
> He might indeed! Or he might not, given that his interest when interacting
> with a computer is to e.g. send an email to someone, not to have to expend
> work to preserve his privacy. I suspect that he’d rather go on with what
> he was doing — sending email — than asking me what a good but untrusted
> signature is. (For example.)
> 

If he has little interest in protecting his privacy why would he even
bother with any encryption no matter whether it's easy to use or not?

>> - assuming he hasn't given up asking because you hold his mental
>> capacity in such low regard.
> 
> OK, next time, I’ll *really* choose another example that doesn’t open
> myself up to the ad-hominem so easily.
> 

Yep, use stereotypes and you get what you deserve :P

>>> If we want "ordinary people” (whatever they are, but in a crypto context
>>> they’ll be more like my dad than like me) to use encryption, we will
>>> have
>>> to make it invisible to them. It doesn't even have to be perfect; good
>>> enough will do.
>>>
>>
>> You think if crypto is invisible to people then they'll be able to deal
>> with when things go wrong any better than your dad would be if you
>> equipped him with minimal knowledge of how to get by with PGP using e.g
>> Enigmail on Thunderbird?
> 
> In most cases, yes.  Also, it will enable things to go right more often,
> simply because configuration options will be removed, making the whole
> thing easier to write and test.
> 
>> The more you hide details from people, the less they are able to help
>> themselves.
> 
> That is only true for a very small number of specialists. The success of
> many products is precisely the careful hiding of many details, most of
> which would be unintelligible to the vast majority of users anyway. Unless
> you’re a trained engineer, you will have no detailed idea how a modern car
> engine works (or FM radio or …), for example. If you had to know these
> things in order to operate a car engine, there would be vastly fewer cars
> out there. And common failure modes of cars — low fuel, low oil or tire
> pressure and whatnot — have been incorporated into user interfaces that
> many people routinely and correctly use. That works only by not exposing
> details.
> 

You can drive a car mostly successfully without too much information but
if it stops at the side of the road and the limited info from your dials
doesn't tell you what's wrong then a bit more knowledge might just get
you home.
If anything, this matches the Enigmail model more than the invisible
crypto model.


> Fun,
> 
> Stephan
> — 
> If I have downvote policy, I will downvote you.
> 
> 

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From coderman at gmail.com  Tue Nov 10 19:21:10 2015
From: coderman at gmail.com (coderman)
Date: Tue, 10 Nov 2015 19:21:10 -0800
Subject: FOIA MuckRock API
In-Reply-To: <CANFTA09DM+O8ZQb2fxdCUer8h=0aQ0btUAwU6m+7wUdbeNyGLg@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CANFTA09DM+O8ZQb2fxdCUer8h=0aQ0btUAwU6m+7wUdbeNyGLg@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAJVRA1TuoZvLnhLrQuomqks0WHjzn7cnsZi+BQ+5F=ns=F=ECQ@mail.gmail.com>

On 11/10/15, Michael Best <themikebest at gmail.com> wrote:
> I've been in on-and-off contact with Michael Morisy over at MuckRock, and
> one of the things that's come up is the API script that they're working on
> the export the FOIA requests and responses.

neat!


> Unfortunately, the script crashes
> after processing a few dozen, but not consistently - likely the result of
> character encoding issues. He's given me permission to share the
> in-progress script.

going over it now. will also fix the insecure HTTPS configuration.
also ill; progress will be slow!

also noticed fixed page sizes, will adjust this based on API responses
as well. (no hardcode at 20 per page)

and a few things with dir and file creation i might shore up (?)

will advise...

best regards,




From grarpamp at gmail.com  Tue Nov 10 16:23:47 2015
From: grarpamp at gmail.com (grarpamp)
Date: Tue, 10 Nov 2015 19:23:47 -0500
Subject: UK's GCHQ and NCA: Joining Forces To Ferret Out Darknet
Message-ID: <CAD2Ti2-YisJ91gFq3KEzHiOiccnHtqU4aq0qeetbZQHrSg4ROw@mail.gmail.com>

http://motherboard.vice.com/read/the-uk-will-police-the-dark-web-with-a-new-task-force
The Joint Operations Cell will increase our ability to identify and
stop serious criminals.
The creation of this unit should finally shatter the image that GCHQ
solely focuses on national security matters or terrorism cases.
At the summit, it was said that GCHQ's technical skills would be its
contribution to the unit.
The JOC is a genuinely innovative development, using the best of our
respective agencies' skills.




From coderman at gmail.com  Tue Nov 10 19:50:50 2015
From: coderman at gmail.com (coderman)
Date: Tue, 10 Nov 2015 19:50:50 -0800
Subject: FOIA MuckRock API
In-Reply-To: <CAJVRA1TuoZvLnhLrQuomqks0WHjzn7cnsZi+BQ+5F=ns=F=ECQ@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CANFTA09DM+O8ZQb2fxdCUer8h=0aQ0btUAwU6m+7wUdbeNyGLg@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAJVRA1TuoZvLnhLrQuomqks0WHjzn7cnsZi+BQ+5F=ns=F=ECQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAJVRA1R6YjHD9uHTLedmNBBRuDTYxVrQrZ1LU=t3io2J2gU4MQ@mail.gmail.com>

On 11/10/15, coderman <coderman at gmail.com> wrote:
> ...
>> Unfortunately, the script crashes
>> after processing a few dozen, but not consistently...


hey Mike, do you have an example base URI that is close to / causing failures?

i'm up over a gig of leeched docs, no crashes yet.
 ( curious to nail down culprit... :)

i may create a UTF-8 and UTF-16 heavy request on MuckRock, for test,
if this fails.




From coderman at gmail.com  Tue Nov 10 20:04:45 2015
From: coderman at gmail.com (coderman)
Date: Tue, 10 Nov 2015 20:04:45 -0800
Subject: FOIA MuckRock API
In-Reply-To: <CAH7N8Y=r96XSbD+T=YrJ-4YkmAoH80_FrpHuoeVMFA3i2YE1mg@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CANFTA09DM+O8ZQb2fxdCUer8h=0aQ0btUAwU6m+7wUdbeNyGLg@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAJVRA1TuoZvLnhLrQuomqks0WHjzn7cnsZi+BQ+5F=ns=F=ECQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAJVRA1R6YjHD9uHTLedmNBBRuDTYxVrQrZ1LU=t3io2J2gU4MQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAH7N8Y=r96XSbD+T=YrJ-4YkmAoH80_FrpHuoeVMFA3i2YE1mg@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAJVRA1TDT-h_sN4vvDDX_OekK05Kd6ZCN6pMfWHQV--35u6xpw@mail.gmail.com>

On 11/10/15, Michael Morisy <m at morisy.com> wrote:
> I don't, for me it crashed around page 40 when I had it doing 20
> requests a page, but good chance I was doing something dumb/it was a
> problem with my computer

comparing Python versions might be useful. (i am using 2.7.6 for this test)


> Mitch wrote some export code that's much cleaner in case it's helpful,
> with the big caveat that it drops everything into JSON files instead
> of txt and PDF.

thanks; i'm past 90 pages now, and wondering if this is a particular
edge case with some specific versions of Python, urllib, requests -
the whole crew are a motley bunch!


last question: API only credentials, like a "Device Login" or API
token, which don't use primary username and password:
  are these on the roadmap?

i don't mind this method much, since i generate unique user and
passwords anyway, but it is good practice to have separate credentials
for the bots and scripts :)


thanks again!




From juan.g71 at gmail.com  Tue Nov 10 15:42:34 2015
From: juan.g71 at gmail.com (Juan)
Date: Tue, 10 Nov 2015 20:42:34 -0300
Subject: FOIPA adventures
In-Reply-To: <CAJVRA1TGze5ApiZR_=0-sXWX5TvsLajxY6z8eUeWyhAE131vLg@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAJVRA1SaJpNaPQx=s_7VVM==ony2sH0aUG3w11cjNX6escSm8w@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAJVRA1TOMYnBh0-B=uh6n2HsOsFdY+SKVG-=XqKi6WPNro++PA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAJVRA1Qao1qE2kBSbb_V5NPQ7PF--VFnYQpc=08wY2_ZURz4hg@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAJVRA1S45TEydVoKDxW9SfC0DKcSdxB_HfjrvcZQjU5uymfFOQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAD2Ti29j9qCnTCBEpaTj9B2NdWpLQoAiT02QzbitiART9tFg6A@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAJVRA1SAOUWi485z=_VRnhLu=EL1c8rVQOvdFz09-P4TjbLHww@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAJVRA1T0E3Lny4YPOjvvCtpSZOmx5dim+nw7e_Zzz-PYXNUAjg@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAJVRA1TtoL+tz0XYxNPSV7oE7HBVWORZ65Og6hrREQzreN6ozw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAJVRA1TbbVJ-88nHq0GKMhS5Z3GQ+=jCqv2E49FS=4L2+xQeFg@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAJVRA1SmqVnWdic5s6f8pk_GxVZ9-hr+d+siOaTWLbtvurk23Q@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAJVRA1Q-aARB1bqZ6k1TWf=kfnSNRiKqeaCa=FAJoFK2bXjd-A@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAJVRA1QCOcWiw8jAPGHka_i1sdNVHEv-=b4_2UUYc1HAOwAcKQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <5642626e.16908c0a.a171c.ffffa1a7@mx.google.com>
 <CAJVRA1TGze5ApiZR_=0-sXWX5TvsLajxY6z8eUeWyhAE131vLg@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <56427f47.c448370a.4f974.ffffb1ca@mx.google.com>

On Tue, 10 Nov 2015 14:19:49 -0800
coderman <coderman at gmail.com> wrote:

> On 11/10/15, Juan <juan.g71 at gmail.com> wrote:
> > ...
> > 	So coderman, you've been doing this for months. What useful
> > 	information have your masters graciously given you so far?
> 
> 
> the full retrospective at 1yr mark in January, however, useful
> aspects so far:
> 
> - wide variety of requests and processing activity, which is useful
> for discerning aspects of FOIA processing at agencies of interest.

	f1 { so you got information regarding how the
	information-denying bureaucracy works?  }

> 
> - learned indicators of obfuscation or delay, which in turn is signal
> to dig deeper, aggressively appeal and follow up.

	f1 ()

> 
> - used specific requests as leverage to open up additional
> information. E.g. the laser specific "Count of Kingfish devices" which
> returned counts, while purchase orders and other details around
> Stingrays and cell site simulators in general get a Glomar.
	
	I can't say if that is surprising or not surprising. 

> 
> - other tidbits of varying interest. E.g. the multiple MuckRock
> articles making use of my responsive documents.
> 
> 
> [ all this in turn useful for sekrit $full_auto_FOIA project :]
> 
> 
> 
> that answer your question?

	Sort of. Thanks ;)








From themikebest at gmail.com  Tue Nov 10 17:43:48 2015
From: themikebest at gmail.com (Michael Best)
Date: Tue, 10 Nov 2015 20:43:48 -0500
Subject: FOIA MuckRock API
Message-ID: <CANFTA09DM+O8ZQb2fxdCUer8h=0aQ0btUAwU6m+7wUdbeNyGLg@mail.gmail.com>

I've been in on-and-off contact with Michael Morisy over at MuckRock, and
one of the things that's come up is the API script that they're working on
the export the FOIA requests and responses. Unfortunately, the script crashes
after processing a few dozen, but not consistently - likely the result of
character encoding issues. He's given me permission to share the
in-progress script.

https://github.com/MuckRock/API-examples/blob/master/export_all_requests_as_files.py

If anyone is able to look at the code and offer any ideas about solutions
(or even pinpointing the problem), it'd be a great public service. I'm not
code savvy enough to help, but I'm hoping someone on the list can bring in
some fresh eyes and help MuckRock get the script working.

--Mike
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From grarpamp at gmail.com  Tue Nov 10 20:04:45 2015
From: grarpamp at gmail.com (grarpamp)
Date: Tue, 10 Nov 2015 23:04:45 -0500
Subject: UK To Ban Crypto In Devices, Email And More
In-Reply-To: <56425E4A.7080900@riseup.net>
References: <CAD2Ti29w4u9RMOt_gRvWe-vYo_So4R4XyfOYJcqEe_XzPGAL4A@mail.gmail.com>
 <5641238D.5050005@gmail.com>
 <CAD2Ti2_-gW79iaHQxCMGEyVJK=C93n5OR68nCX0TNk4Fh8N9_w@mail.gmail.com>
 <5641A5DD.7010709@gmail.com>
 <CAD2Ti2-tcwFvCUvpLQX=tOQssw_uqmQQ=_yd7w0YOz3DWuuMQg@mail.gmail.com>
 <56424872.10848c0a.6152b.ffff9370@mx.google.com> <56425E4A.7080900@riseup.net>
Message-ID: <CAD2Ti29qZ_5VokY2pbGd0Wfk_4eXFsNT1UOznPwPFUBxxpK9yA@mail.gmail.com>

On Tue, Nov 10, 2015 at 4:14 PM, Razer <Rayzer at riseup.net> wrote:
> Don't know if you're 'missing something' but the UK is 'missing' a 'bill
> of rights'.
>
> UK citizens have no inalienable right to privacy, even in the form of
> empty words.

Take just one element of any supposed bill, "[inalienable right to] privacy".

Now list which countries by name that have such words on paper today?
How did they get them enshrined?
How do they keep them?
Are they actually followed?
What will it take to disembowel them?
How long, and how, will it take those who don't have them to get them?

Then repeat analysis for any presumably "inalienable" right.

Homework is due on Friday.




From grarpamp at gmail.com  Tue Nov 10 20:27:47 2015
From: grarpamp at gmail.com (grarpamp)
Date: Tue, 10 Nov 2015 23:27:47 -0500
Subject: PGP, Mail, Devices, P2P, Bans, Utility [was: UK Crypto]
Message-ID: <CAD2Ti283oxO6QMmYUXPSTU9NpgW6KrvrgQkq9k2bPrysSkKo_A@mail.gmail.com>

> Its easier to make a slick UI than convince people to do work. Is it
> so much to ask that people who make software try to make life easy for
> their users?

Apple understands and successfully applies that. They put their UX
and code camps together. It's something open source coders should
solicit more into their fold... open source UX'ers.
Assuming for example that Apple's phone crypto really is as good
as their word, then the only real weakness is whatever cheesy
screenpass it takes to login, yet so long as you *can* enter a
strong 128 bit, insert a cryptokey, whatever... then it services
everyone well enough.

> You can drive a car mostly successfully without too much information but
> if it stops at the side of the road and the limited info from your dials
> doesn't tell you what's wrong then a bit more knowledge might just get
> you home.
> If anything, this matches the Enigmail model more than the invisible
> crypto model.

Sure, level based access to more details and knobs is fine.
Dummy Mode, Medium Mucking, and Advanced Footshooting

> - Your key gets signed by your friends, so now your friend network public
> - Emails with PGP are provably from you, in a way that can be traced
> back to physically witnessed government ID.

Then don't have your key signed, and or be a nym and sign those of
nyms you trust based on context, not on govts. Use of WOT is an
option there if you want it, not every use case of PGP needs it.

> PGP as a *product* it was a complete failure. I mean, it
> doesn't even protect metadata.

No, PGP is excellent, at what it does.  Like any other tool, it
fails when people foolishly try to make it do what it can't in
situations it shouldn't.  There is no blame on the tool there, only
upon the people stubbornly bashing their head trying to make it fit.

Continuing to talk about traditional SMTP transport services as
fixable by bolting on whatever... is futile, ignorant, and old.
All the people circlejerking on Metzdowd about designing crypto
fixes into existing SMTP models, and all the newfangled encrypted
webmail providers fall into that category.

> the metadata issue a big problem for everyone who connects to a
> server that isn't owned by them  and I suspect really requires a new mail
> protocol to resolve.

Owning both ends hides the non-body elements, but you're not
hiding dns lookups, sizes, the fact that you hit send, etc.
It's not a new mail protocol that's needed, it's a whole
new messaging network.

> the only option is to make GPG transparent by getting the
> email providers to automatically create key pairs and automatically
> handle signing and encryption by integrating their mail services with
> GPG behind the scenes.

No, this is a non option.
- Free providers are out for their own, like govts, they have no
real interest in their users going dark.
- Paid providers are a bit more loyal, but building that
and making statements about it entails risk of suit for failure
such that they're not really inclined. Most of them can't
even put postfix, dovecot and openldap together reliably and
scalably, let alone functional spam control and peering.
- You're still trusting your keys to the provider, and that the
provider won't be forced to jack you through your browser or
whatever cool software they give you. In today's world, that is
an abject failure.

As before:
Traditional centralized messaging services are a failure.  There
is NOTHING you can do to fix them but to replace them.  That is
where you have the chance to integrate crypto and defenses.  And the
only valid thing to replace them with now against the risk of centralization
and all but godlike attack is a new anonymous encrypted P2P messaging
transport system that scales [1].  You could create a new UI on all
the platforms, and for faster adoption encapsulate existing message
format within and extend existing clients to deal with the cryptographic
addressbooking and keep it Unix and business needs pipeliney. You
could include storage and nym registration. But at minimum you need
to shuffle messages between cryptographic endpoints within the net.

Anyways, you're wasting your time talking about PGPifying webmail,
desnooping and delogging SMTP, and poor little Johnny.
Forget about that tired old refit shit and build something new.
Put a little bling and sound effects in it, call it an IM, it worked
for ICQ and Candy Crush. The users will come, trust me.

Do it soon so you can try to head off bans with your newfound
embedded ubiquity.


[1] We have a handful of researched and implemented systems now.
But don't yet have enough knowledge, experience and wisdom
to determine what really should go into one that will remain valid for
the next 30 years of relatively stable internet API as we know it [2].
There's a good rate of people deploying new p2p, crypto, anti-metadata,
attack resistant, network tech such that by 2020 we may have explored
enough areas to begin to feel confident in assembling a handful of
them into such a system... even into a number of systems... messaging,
storage, info / data distribution, payments. But it will take all
of us trying them out and contributing to do it.

[2] Packet switched IPv6 routed global end to end connectivity.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Internet
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_the_Internet




From grarpamp at gmail.com  Wed Nov 11 00:18:34 2015
From: grarpamp at gmail.com (grarpamp)
Date: Wed, 11 Nov 2015 03:18:34 -0500
Subject: States Storing And Selling Your DNA At Birth Without Explicit Notice
 Consent (TBA: Hospitals Doctors Testlabs Too)
Message-ID: <CAD2Ti2-LSL4ovgzLKiy5YRuQCnp6outB2RQNq4W0oPN9ioUz9w@mail.gmail.com>

http://sanfrancisco.cbslocal.com/2015/11/09/dna-data-from-california-newborn-blood-samples-stored-sold-to-3rd-parties/
http://slashdot.org/~DavidPoole

(KPIX 5) — This might come as a surprise to California natives in
their 20s and early 30s: The state owns your DNA.
Every year about four million newborns in the U.S. get a heel prick at birth,
Danielle Gatto ... was shocked to find, her daughters’ leftover blood
was not thrown away. “The state collects the cards and then uses them
in a database,” she said.
Turns out a non-descript office building in Richmond contains the DNA
of every person born in California since 1983.
Law enforcement can request them. Private companies can buy them to do
research – without your consent. “Everybody has a right to make an
informed decision. That is not for the state to decide for them,” said
Gatto.
The CDPH turned down a request for an interview and wouldn’t explain
why it doesn’t ask permission to sell babies’ blood spots.
Yaniv Erlich with Columbia University and the New York Genome Center
... demonstrated how easy it is to take anonymized DNA,
cross-reference it with online data and connect it to a name. “You
need to have some training in genetics, but once you have that kind of
training the attack is not very complicated to conduct,”
But Gatto thinks the state should have to at least ask her consent
before storing and selling her daughters’ DNA. “We are at the
beginning of a frontier of so much genetic research, there is no
knowing at this point in time what that info could be used for,” said
Gatto. ‘The worst thing as a parent is to think that a decision that
you are making today may negatively affect your children down the
road.”
Gatto's husband – state Assemblyman Mike Gatto – introduced a bill
this year that would have required signed consent... Opposition from
the state and the industry killed it.




From grarpamp at gmail.com  Wed Nov 11 00:43:14 2015
From: grarpamp at gmail.com (grarpamp)
Date: Wed, 11 Nov 2015 03:43:14 -0500
Subject: UK To Demand Backdooring Else Prison [Crypto In Devices, Email
 And More]
In-Reply-To: <CAOsGNSS69vLAiSb0-vD7OXaY5xXLguScEKtfrGpytiogX_HWqw@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAD2Ti28DpM5SDeOh35qS3sjKeauyvYVtKZybVY9kEG7BjkZhjg@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAOsGNSS69vLAiSb0-vD7OXaY5xXLguScEKtfrGpytiogX_HWqw@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAD2Ti2-9QuBsQZbcqsmS4uHZZF6=qECoODn0ytVSkNn_g2sbYQ@mail.gmail.com>

On Wed, Nov 11, 2015 at 3:09 AM, Zenaan Harkness <zen at freedbms.net> wrote:
> Perhaps such mandatory backdoors will help finally indict all those UK
> politicians pedophile rings which keep getting eternally investigated.

No. Evidence and backdoors are moot, they've exempted
themselves from prosecution.
Ever try citing an on duty cop for not using their turn signal?
Or the US (and the top people of all three of its branches) for
Guantanamo war crimes and spying? Good luck.
It's also why governments don't permit citizens courts with citizen
prosecutors, citizen judges, and citizen police. You'd win.
Voting doesn't matter, once in they're all instruments of the
state, they win, by design, since 1776. Lol.




From grarpamp at gmail.com  Wed Nov 11 02:06:13 2015
From: grarpamp at gmail.com (grarpamp)
Date: Wed, 11 Nov 2015 05:06:13 -0500
Subject: New functionality of Facebook
In-Reply-To: <5642F5D4.1080009@gmail.com>
References: <5642F5D4.1080009@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAD2Ti2-JQVphha8kCWAeLUm0X=8XVu541i7K6ribC9QjSaGG4w@mail.gmail.com>

On Wed, Nov 11, 2015 at 3:01 AM, Tomas Overdrive Petru <tpetru at gmail.com> wrote:
> I know nobody will like this, because mood is fck Facebook here, but I
> like this small step as example:

Though they may have a mountain of fuck to address, any
fuck removed from said fuckstack is indeed worth a kudo.

> communication between your inbox and Facebook will be encrypted.

*from* facebook *to* your inbox, unless they've published their
public key, or that of other users.

As with everything out of your control, it's subject to
change and error.




From grarpamp at gmail.com  Wed Nov 11 02:16:27 2015
From: grarpamp at gmail.com (grarpamp)
Date: Wed, 11 Nov 2015 05:16:27 -0500
Subject: [Cryptography] Cryptogit
In-Reply-To: <564309F2.2020500@bluegap.ch>
References: <CAMm+Lwin2BFLKQDorAg7VkiHfcOceYGUFHfq2z+c-4eLJEbFUQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAD2Ti29MCJBZD9OR0aTK-ROGhJYd9KUK7oc6KawkdZuNehZMKg@mail.gmail.com>
 <564309F2.2020500@bluegap.ch>
Message-ID: <CAD2Ti2_2pSJ600Bc5oT7bHM4+SJVoHBNBhbWfRApaQQZNW==3w@mail.gmail.com>

On Wed, Nov 11, 2015 at 4:27 AM, Markus Wanner <markus at bluegap.ch> wrote:
> On 11/10/2015 08:45 AM, grarpamp wrote:
>> PKI built in, that may serve as a idea / base for further encryption work...
> does not support encryption of data.

I meant further crypto work to include encryption.




From grarpamp at gmail.com  Wed Nov 11 02:36:01 2015
From: grarpamp at gmail.com (grarpamp)
Date: Wed, 11 Nov 2015 05:36:01 -0500
Subject: UK To Ban Crypto In Devices, Email And More
In-Reply-To: <5642F463.9050001@gmail.com>
References: <CAD2Ti29w4u9RMOt_gRvWe-vYo_So4R4XyfOYJcqEe_XzPGAL4A@mail.gmail.com>
 <5641238D.5050005@gmail.com>
 <CAD2Ti2_-gW79iaHQxCMGEyVJK=C93n5OR68nCX0TNk4Fh8N9_w@mail.gmail.com>
 <5641A5DD.7010709@gmail.com>
 <CAD2Ti2-tcwFvCUvpLQX=tOQssw_uqmQQ=_yd7w0YOz3DWuuMQg@mail.gmail.com>
 <5642F463.9050001@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAD2Ti2-LHu1FGS4Rxmr9E3vAT87ZpCUDpwwYycq9uEfKgL4YFA@mail.gmail.com>

On Wed, Nov 11, 2015 at 2:55 AM, Tomas Overdrive Petru <tpetru at gmail.com> wrote:
> Problem is that politics are similar as cryptographers: only some people
> care about that role in their life. Would you go to government in case elected?

They can go downvote everything, smoke weed, work crypto,
and inject whatever they care about... being random selection,
that's representative too. Certainly no worse than the level of
care given by some in existing governments.

As a culture, selected people should be paid to go, free
to return to where they left upon term limits, etc. Such that
conscious objectors would be the only ones not there.
Certainly other things they'd think about... remaining
independant, serving the people, etc. Who knows what
makes people go or not go.

> I have seen success of Pirate Party at Prague but none of hackers really
> wanted to work in town-hall after that.

Get in, fix some problem at hand, leave. That's not bad either.




From grarpamp at gmail.com  Wed Nov 11 02:59:33 2015
From: grarpamp at gmail.com (grarpamp)
Date: Wed, 11 Nov 2015 05:59:33 -0500
Subject: States Storing And Selling Your DNA At Birth Without Explicit
 Notice Consent (TBA: Hospitals Doctors Testlabs Too)
In-Reply-To: <CAD2Ti2-LSL4ovgzLKiy5YRuQCnp6outB2RQNq4W0oPN9ioUz9w@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAD2Ti2-LSL4ovgzLKiy5YRuQCnp6outB2RQNq4W0oPN9ioUz9w@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAD2Ti29MxUsuHhNEj9XOHW+3yMWQ1EEvZ4V8hQkn118ibVp7GA@mail.gmail.com>

> (TBA: Hospitals Doctors Testlabs Too)

Don't forget the Red Cross and Military
among other places that vamp you and
do who knows what with it.




From zen at freedbms.net  Wed Nov 11 00:09:31 2015
From: zen at freedbms.net (Zenaan Harkness)
Date: Wed, 11 Nov 2015 08:09:31 +0000
Subject: UK To Demand Backdooring Else Prison [Crypto In Devices, Email
 And More]
In-Reply-To: <CAD2Ti28DpM5SDeOh35qS3sjKeauyvYVtKZybVY9kEG7BjkZhjg@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAD2Ti28DpM5SDeOh35qS3sjKeauyvYVtKZybVY9kEG7BjkZhjg@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAOsGNSS69vLAiSb0-vD7OXaY5xXLguScEKtfrGpytiogX_HWqw@mail.gmail.com>

> Subject: UK To Demand Backdooring Else Prison

You -must- make backdoor available, or you -shall- be imprisoned with
no guarantee of safety for your back door.

At least it's the guvmint - we can trust them. Can't we?

Perhaps such mandatory backdoors will help finally indict all those UK
politicians pedophile rings which keep getting eternally investigated.




From tpetru at gmail.com  Tue Nov 10 23:55:15 2015
From: tpetru at gmail.com (Tomas Overdrive Petru)
Date: Wed, 11 Nov 2015 08:55:15 +0100
Subject: UK To Ban Crypto In Devices, Email And More
In-Reply-To: <CAD2Ti2-tcwFvCUvpLQX=tOQssw_uqmQQ=_yd7w0YOz3DWuuMQg@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAD2Ti29w4u9RMOt_gRvWe-vYo_So4R4XyfOYJcqEe_XzPGAL4A@mail.gmail.com>
 <5641238D.5050005@gmail.com>
 <CAD2Ti2_-gW79iaHQxCMGEyVJK=C93n5OR68nCX0TNk4Fh8N9_w@mail.gmail.com>
 <5641A5DD.7010709@gmail.com>
 <CAD2Ti2-tcwFvCUvpLQX=tOQssw_uqmQQ=_yd7w0YOz3DWuuMQg@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <5642F463.9050001@gmail.com>



On 10.11.15 20:16, grarpamp wrote:
> On Tue, Nov 10, 2015 at 3:07 AM, Tomas Overdrive Petru <tpetru at gmail.com> wrote:
>> Thing is that I do not believe that in democratic country government is
>> something more or other than ordinary people
> Then there is no reason for elections or politics. Just fire all
> current officeholders
> and rewrite constitutions to select term limited replacements at random from the
> entire population. Elections and parties are just a TV show, that's why they're
> on TV and promoted like the WWF.

Problem is that politics are similar as cryptographers: only some people
care about that role in their life. Would you go to government in case
elected?
I have seen success of Pirate Party at Prague but none of hackers really
wanted to work in town-hall after that.

- Over


-- 
“Borders I have never seen one. But I have heard they exist in the minds of some people.”        
  ―     Thor Heyerdahl 


Telegram................... at over23
facebook...................facebook.com/overdrive23
projects...................https://brmlab.cz/user/overdrive
twitter....................https://twitter.com/#!/over2393
last.fm....................http://www.last.fm/user/overdrive23
GnuPG key FingerPrint......08EA E4DC EF85 0F02 9267 5B48 2E58 6902 C5F8 794C
Public key ................http://overdrive.dronezone.eu/overdrive.txt


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From tpetru at gmail.com  Wed Nov 11 00:01:24 2015
From: tpetru at gmail.com (Tomas Overdrive Petru)
Date: Wed, 11 Nov 2015 09:01:24 +0100
Subject: New functionality of Facebook
Message-ID: <5642F5D4.1080009@gmail.com>

I know nobody will like this, because mood is fck Facebook here, but I
like this small step as example:

Just by accident I have found Facebook have text field in settings where
you can insert your public key and after confirmation email
communication between your inbox and Facebook will be encrypted.

Update your info -> contact and Basic Info -> PGP Public Key

Regards,
 - Over

-- 
“Borders I have never seen one. But I have heard they exist in the minds of some people.”        
  ―     Thor Heyerdahl 


Telegram................... at over23

facebook...................facebook.com/overdrive23
projects...................https://brmlab.cz/user/overdrive
twitter....................https://twitter.com/#!/over2393
last.fm....................http://www.last.fm/user/overdrive23
GnuPG key FingerPrint......08EA E4DC EF85 0F02 9267 5B48 2E58 6902 C5F8 794C
Public key ................http://overdrive.dronezone.eu/overdrive.txt


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From ryacko at gmail.com  Wed Nov 11 11:27:32 2015
From: ryacko at gmail.com (Ryan Carboni)
Date: Wed, 11 Nov 2015 11:27:32 -0800
Subject: Ethical Tor
Message-ID: <CAO7N=i1ZRQeaY7ZAC9ZquC72PC+rRtZBUckKKa6U4cEJZ_B+og@mail.gmail.com>

https://blog.torproject.org/blog/ethical-tor-research-guidelines

Interesting problem: to use Tor is to say you trust your ISP less than
some pseudorandom person over the internet.




From admin at pilobilus.net  Wed Nov 11 12:38:37 2015
From: admin at pilobilus.net (Steve Kinney)
Date: Wed, 11 Nov 2015 15:38:37 -0500
Subject: Ethical Tor
In-Reply-To: <CAO7N=i1ZRQeaY7ZAC9ZquC72PC+rRtZBUckKKa6U4cEJZ_B+og@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAO7N=i1ZRQeaY7ZAC9ZquC72PC+rRtZBUckKKa6U4cEJZ_B+og@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <5643A74D.9050609@pilobilus.net>

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1

On 11/11/2015 02:27 PM, Ryan Carboni wrote:
> https://blog.torproject.org/blog/ethical-tor-research-guidelines
>
>  Interesting problem: to use Tor is to say you trust your ISP
> less than some pseudorandom person over the internet.

My ISP is a proven malicious actor, actively cooperating with even
more malicious actors.  Whether and how this is relevant depends
entirely on the threat model I am addressing:  Specific assets vs.
known classes of adversaries, in the context of my use case.




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From mirimir at riseup.net  Wed Nov 11 17:09:51 2015
From: mirimir at riseup.net (Mirimir)
Date: Wed, 11 Nov 2015 18:09:51 -0700
Subject: Ethical Tor
In-Reply-To: <CAO7N=i1ZRQeaY7ZAC9ZquC72PC+rRtZBUckKKa6U4cEJZ_B+og@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAO7N=i1ZRQeaY7ZAC9ZquC72PC+rRtZBUckKKa6U4cEJZ_B+og@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <5643E6DF.4040405@riseup.net>

On 11/11/2015 12:27 PM, Ryan Carboni wrote:
> https://blog.torproject.org/blog/ethical-tor-research-guidelines
> 
> Interesting problem: to use Tor is to say you trust your ISP less than
> some pseudorandom person over the internet.

Sadly enough, that's often prudent. Some ISPs are honorable, for sure.
But many are duplicitous scum.

In any case, it's more accurate to say that about your VPN provider.
With Tor, you're trusting the system, but system integrity is resilient
to malicious nodes. So you're not trusting any one of them fully, even
your entry guard, as much as you would have been trusting your ISP.




From ryacko at gmail.com  Wed Nov 11 18:59:05 2015
From: ryacko at gmail.com (Ryan Carboni)
Date: Wed, 11 Nov 2015 18:59:05 -0800
Subject: Ethical Tor
Message-ID: <CAO7N=i0dOPPPEsHO08T=QDzyvwHZkzN=Qu=T0R3Hgh2RhRbDEg@mail.gmail.com>

> On 11/11/2015 12:27 PM, Ryan Carboni wrote:
> >* https://blog.torproject.org/blog/ethical-tor-research-guidelines <https://blog.torproject.org/blog/ethical-tor-research-guidelines>
> *> >* Interesting problem: to use Tor is to say you trust your ISP less than
> *>* some pseudorandom person over the internet.
> *
> Sadly enough, that's often prudent. Some ISPs are honorable, for sure.
> But many are duplicitous scum.
>
> In any case, it's more accurate to say that about your VPN provider.
> With Tor, you're trusting the system, but system integrity is resilient
> to malicious nodes. So you're not trusting any one of them fully, even
> your entry guard, as much as you would have been trusting your ISP.
>
>
Correct, it would be prudent to avoid using port 80 over Tor for anything
personally identifiable.

http://motherboard.vice.com/read/court-docs-show-a-university-helped-fbi-bust-silk-road-2-child-porn-suspects
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From coderman at gmail.com  Wed Nov 11 20:53:43 2015
From: coderman at gmail.com (coderman)
Date: Wed, 11 Nov 2015 20:53:43 -0800
Subject: Ethical Tor
In-Reply-To: <56440D6D.1040705@riseup.net>
References: <CAO7N=i0dOPPPEsHO08T=QDzyvwHZkzN=Qu=T0R3Hgh2RhRbDEg@mail.gmail.com>
 <56440D6D.1040705@riseup.net>
Message-ID: <CAJVRA1Sd4T8Qdm6yBbfgzHY0UV5+yn4ewKA_NNnRbkCV64FwAg@mail.gmail.com>

On 11/11/15, Mirimir <mirimir at riseup.net> wrote:
> ...
> Anyway, CMU's attack did manage to compromise some onion services, most
> notably SR2.[0] And I'm not impressed with the Tor Project's
> performance. They apparently ignored the CMU attack for five months.

this was a very subtle attack in circuit behavior!

additional debugging / logging had to be added to be able to track
down what was going on, and even then it was a challenge to determine
the attack technique.

how would you have spotted it?




From mirimir at riseup.net  Wed Nov 11 19:54:21 2015
From: mirimir at riseup.net (Mirimir)
Date: Wed, 11 Nov 2015 20:54:21 -0700
Subject: Ethical Tor
In-Reply-To: <CAO7N=i0dOPPPEsHO08T=QDzyvwHZkzN=Qu=T0R3Hgh2RhRbDEg@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAO7N=i0dOPPPEsHO08T=QDzyvwHZkzN=Qu=T0R3Hgh2RhRbDEg@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <56440D6D.1040705@riseup.net>

On 11/11/2015 07:59 PM, Ryan Carboni wrote:
>> On 11/11/2015 12:27 PM, Ryan Carboni wrote:
>>> * https://blog.torproject.org/blog/ethical-tor-research-guidelines <https://blog.torproject.org/blog/ethical-tor-research-guidelines>
>> *> >* Interesting problem: to use Tor is to say you trust your ISP less than
>> *>* some pseudorandom person over the internet.
>> *

[Mirimir wrote]

>> Sadly enough, that's often prudent. Some ISPs are honorable, for sure.
>> But many are duplicitous scum.
>>
>> In any case, it's more accurate to say that about your VPN provider.
>> With Tor, you're trusting the system, but system integrity is resilient
>> to malicious nodes. So you're not trusting any one of them fully, even
>> your entry guard, as much as you would have been trusting your ISP.
>>
>>
> Correct, it would be prudent to avoid using port 80 over Tor for anything
> personally identifiable.
> 
> http://motherboard.vice.com/read/court-docs-show-a-university-helped-fbi-bust-silk-road-2-child-porn-suspects

You neglected to identify my response!

Anyway, CMU's attack did manage to compromise some onion services, most
notably SR2.[0] And I'm not impressed with the Tor Project's
performance. They apparently ignored the CMU attack for five months.
Maybe they got blindsided by a zero day vulnerability. Or maybe they
just weren't paying enough attention.

But the SR2 connection came up in a comment, and there's no mea culpa
for the delay, just blame on CMU. It's stuff like this that fuels
conspiracy theories about Tor and the US military.

Also, your comment about port 80 makes no sense in this context. The CMU
attack deanonymized onion services, not users. And port 80 with onion
services is secure. It's non-encrypted traffic through exit nodes that's
insecure. There's no exit node when using onion services.

[0] https://blog.torproject.org/blog/did-fbi-pay-university-attack-tor-users




From juan.g71 at gmail.com  Wed Nov 11 20:32:59 2015
From: juan.g71 at gmail.com (Juan)
Date: Thu, 12 Nov 2015 01:32:59 -0300
Subject: Ethical Tor
In-Reply-To: <56440D6D.1040705@riseup.net>
References: <CAO7N=i0dOPPPEsHO08T=QDzyvwHZkzN=Qu=T0R3Hgh2RhRbDEg@mail.gmail.com>
 <56440D6D.1040705@riseup.net>
Message-ID: <564414d8.971b370a.a2ac8.4c19@mx.google.com>

On Wed, 11 Nov 2015 20:54:21 -0700
Mirimir <mirimir at riseup.net> wrote:

> 
> Anyway, CMU's attack did manage to compromise some onion services,
> most notably SR2.[0] And I'm not impressed with the Tor Project's
> performance. 

	Well, you are not alone. 


	"Recently research had come that shed some light on
	vulnerabilities in Tor Hidden Services protocol which could
	help to deanonymize server locations. Most of the new and
	previously known methods do require substantial resources to be
	executed, but the new research shows that the amount of
	resources could be much lower than expected, and in our case we
	do believe we have interested parties who possess such
	resources.

We have a solution in the works which will require big changes into our
software stack which we believe will mitigate such problems, but
unfortunately it will take time to implement. Additionally, we have
recently been discovering suspicious activity around our servers which
led us to believe that some of the attacks described in the research
could be going on and we decided to move servers once again, however
this is only a temporary solution.

At this point, while we don't have a solution ready it would be unsafe
to keep our users using the service, since they would be in jeopardy.
Thus, and to our great sadness we have to take the market offline for a
while, until we can develop a better solution. This is the best course
of action for everyone involved.

In the mean time we shall do our best to clear all outstanding orders
and we ask all of you users who have money on their accounts, withdraw
them as soon as possible, because we don't want to be responsible for
it during the time when the market will be offline.

During this time, there might be some delays in payouts, since many
people are expected to withdraw money at the same time, but we intend
to resolve any such issues in the end. But we advice you to use only
destination bitcoin addresses that do not expire when you send money
out from Agora, as the payments to them might get delayed.

While the market is offline, do not send any bitcoin to any of your
deposit addresses on Agora. We do not gurantee the safety of any funds
sent there.

Vendors, we strongly advice you to abort any orders that haven't been
sent out or processed yet, as we cannot gurantee what will happen with
the orders in resolution. We shall try to resolve it on a case-by-case
basis, but there might not be time to wait for orders that require long
shipping times.

We are going to handle the situation with the vendor bonds soon, we
need some time to make sure that noone uses this as an opportunity to
start scamming wildly.

All of the market data will be kept intact and be available upon
return, including all of the user history and profile data.


Since our PGP key is nearing expiration date, here is a new PGP key
which could be used to check authenticity of our messages in the future.


-------------

https://www.reddit.com/r/AgMarketplace/comments/3idznd/agora_to_pause_operations/





From coderman at gmail.com  Thu Nov 12 02:12:03 2015
From: coderman at gmail.com (coderman)
Date: Thu, 12 Nov 2015 02:12:03 -0800
Subject: Ethical Tor
In-Reply-To: <56445AFA.5010206@riseup.net>
References: <CAO7N=i0dOPPPEsHO08T=QDzyvwHZkzN=Qu=T0R3Hgh2RhRbDEg@mail.gmail.com>
 <56440D6D.1040705@riseup.net>
 <CAJVRA1Sd4T8Qdm6yBbfgzHY0UV5+yn4ewKA_NNnRbkCV64FwAg@mail.gmail.com>
 <56445AFA.5010206@riseup.net>
Message-ID: <CAJVRA1QnwfNn1gg0h0Rf5zujOrwHrwqxvus3e8v6mAzkGCmLtA@mail.gmail.com>

On 11/12/15, Mirimir <mirimir at riseup.net> wrote:
> ...
> Yes, it was subtle. But it was also, as I understand it, pointless
> except as an attack. And it was new behavior, right?

you would not believe the kinds of fucked up clients and relays that
participate in the Tor network! even the friendly implementations in
Java or Rust have at times failed in ways that look like an attack.

i don't think people appreciate the scale, complexity, and novelty of
activity in the Tor ecosystem.



> But still, it wasn't fair to say "ignored". They just didn't see it.

on this we concur :)



> ... I did note that they might have been blindsided by a zero
> day vulnerability.

0day happens! response is important, and Tor has always responded with
urgency and transparency in these situations.



>> how would you have spotted it?
>
> I'm not technical enough to answer that. But generally, I think that
> they ought to put more effort into monitoring. Especially for new
> relays. Look for anything unusual.

this is indeed a challenge!

not just for circuit behavior in general,
  but also bad exit checking (which is usually bad upstream)
    and suspicious cliques of relays.

proposals and patches welcome :)


best regards,




From mirimir at riseup.net  Thu Nov 12 01:25:14 2015
From: mirimir at riseup.net (Mirimir)
Date: Thu, 12 Nov 2015 02:25:14 -0700
Subject: Ethical Tor
In-Reply-To: <CAJVRA1Sd4T8Qdm6yBbfgzHY0UV5+yn4ewKA_NNnRbkCV64FwAg@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAO7N=i0dOPPPEsHO08T=QDzyvwHZkzN=Qu=T0R3Hgh2RhRbDEg@mail.gmail.com>
 <56440D6D.1040705@riseup.net>
 <CAJVRA1Sd4T8Qdm6yBbfgzHY0UV5+yn4ewKA_NNnRbkCV64FwAg@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <56445AFA.5010206@riseup.net>

On 11/11/2015 09:53 PM, coderman wrote:
> On 11/11/15, Mirimir <mirimir at riseup.net> wrote:
>> ...
>> Anyway, CMU's attack did manage to compromise some onion services, most
>> notably SR2.[0] And I'm not impressed with the Tor Project's
>> performance. They apparently ignored the CMU attack for five months.
> 
> this was a very subtle attack in circuit behavior!

Yes, it was subtle. But it was also, as I understand it, pointless
except as an attack. And it was new behavior, right?

But still, it wasn't fair to say "ignored". They just didn't see it.

> additional debugging / logging had to be added to be able to track
> down what was going on, and even then it was a challenge to determine
> the attack technique.

Right. And they apparently didn't start looking until the Black Hat talk
was announced. I did note that they might have been blindsided by a zero
day vulnerability.

> how would you have spotted it?

I'm not technical enough to answer that. But generally, I think that
they ought to put more effort into monitoring. Especially for new
relays. Look for anything unusual.




From zen at freedbms.net  Wed Nov 11 18:30:27 2015
From: zen at freedbms.net (Zenaan Harkness)
Date: Thu, 12 Nov 2015 02:30:27 +0000
Subject: Australia's human rights application to the United Nations Human
 Rights Council
Message-ID: <CAOsGNSSYhTp6VSsFdSeE=nd0vfnF6+MVgtq8c4++-g7NNZo6fg@mail.gmail.com>

Australia wants an illustrious seat on this body self tasked with
being "responsible for the promotion and protection of all human
rights around the globe":

http://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=11543178

http://www.ohchr.org/en/hrbodies/hrc/pages/hrcindex.aspx


With Saudi Arabia heading up part of the United Nations Human Rights Council:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_Nations_Human_Rights_Council#Saudi_Arabia

, Australia should fit right in.

Bloody ratbags, whitewashing (but only sanctioned) genocide around the
planet. No wonder Australia wants to join.

Zenaan




From jdb10987 at yahoo.com  Wed Nov 11 18:53:11 2015
From: jdb10987 at yahoo.com (jim bell)
Date: Thu, 12 Nov 2015 02:53:11 +0000 (UTC)
Subject: Judge enjoins NSA to not collect metadata on attorney or his
 law firm.
In-Reply-To: <1427148794.3645837.1447295953431.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com>
References: <1427148794.3645837.1447295953431.JavaMail.yahoo.ref@mail.yahoo.com>
 <1427148794.3645837.1447295953431.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <2095537388.3663191.1447296791731.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com>

http://news.yahoo.com/u-judge-rules-against-nsa-phone-spying-case-025251888--finance.html

By Dustin VolzOpponents of mass surveillance cheered the ruling by U.S. District Court Judge Richard Leon, who granted an injunction to bar the NSA from collecting the phone metadata of California attorney J.J. Little and his small legal practice.WASHINGTON (Reuters) - A U.S. federal judge on Monday for the first time ordered the National Security Agency to cease collecting the phone call records of a lawyer and his firm, providing an unprecedented but narrow and largely symbolic victory to privacy advocates.Unlike previous rulings against the NSA's program to vacuum up Americans' call data, which was exposed publicly by former NSA contractor Edward Snowden in 2013, Leon’s opinion does not grant a stay, meaning it will take effect immediately.The decision is of little practical consequence because it is so narrow in scope in covering only Little and his firm.It also comes just weeks before the NSA is scheduled to end its controversial bulk collection program in favor of a more targeted system. That new regime, as mandated by Congress earlier this year, will become active on Nov. 29.But the ruling's language is forceful and represents a win for civil liberties groups concerned that NSA surveillance is too intrusive.Leon wrote that the case may be the last court evaluation of the NSA's bulk metadata collection program."It will not, however, be the last chapter in the ongoing struggle to balance privacy rights and national security interests under our Constitution in an age of evolving technological wizardry," he wrote.On Twitter, Snowden cheered the "historic decision" as one that concluded the NSA “violated Americans’ privacy rights.”Leon, a conservative judge appointed by former President George W. Bush, has long been among the most vocal judges critical of the NSA’s spying practices.Leon said he did not stay his Monday decision “because it has been almost two years since I first found that the NSA’s bulk telephony metadata program likely violates the Constitution."Other plaintiffs in the case, including conservative activist Larry Klayman, who began the lawsuit, were not included in the ruling, due to issues concerning standing.A higher court previously rejected Klayman’s challenge, saying he could not prove his phone was targeted by the NSA as Snowden’s documents only revealed customers of Verizon Business Network Services, which is a subsidiary of Verizon Communications, such as Little, were implicated. Klayman added Little to his case to address the standing concern.

  
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From mirimir at riseup.net  Thu Nov 12 04:39:45 2015
From: mirimir at riseup.net (Mirimir)
Date: Thu, 12 Nov 2015 05:39:45 -0700
Subject: Ethical Tor
In-Reply-To: <CAJVRA1QnwfNn1gg0h0Rf5zujOrwHrwqxvus3e8v6mAzkGCmLtA@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAO7N=i0dOPPPEsHO08T=QDzyvwHZkzN=Qu=T0R3Hgh2RhRbDEg@mail.gmail.com>
 <56440D6D.1040705@riseup.net>
 <CAJVRA1Sd4T8Qdm6yBbfgzHY0UV5+yn4ewKA_NNnRbkCV64FwAg@mail.gmail.com>
 <56445AFA.5010206@riseup.net>
 <CAJVRA1QnwfNn1gg0h0Rf5zujOrwHrwqxvus3e8v6mAzkGCmLtA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <56448891.4090001@riseup.net>

On 11/12/2015 03:12 AM, coderman wrote:
> On 11/12/15, Mirimir <mirimir at riseup.net> wrote:
>> ...
>> Yes, it was subtle. But it was also, as I understand it, pointless
>> except as an attack. And it was new behavior, right?
> 
> you would not believe the kinds of fucked up clients and relays that
> participate in the Tor network! even the friendly implementations in
> Java or Rust have at times failed in ways that look like an attack.
> 
> i don't think people appreciate the scale, complexity, and novelty of
> activity in the Tor ecosystem.

I'm sure that I don't. But maybe it would be better to consider odd
behavior as attacks until confirmed as friendly bugs.

<SNIP>

>>> how would you have spotted it?
>>
>> I'm not technical enough to answer that. But generally, I think that
>> they ought to put more effort into monitoring. Especially for new
>> relays. Look for anything unusual.
> 
> this is indeed a challenge!
> 
> not just for circuit behavior in general,
>   but also bad exit checking (which is usually bad upstream)
>     and suspicious cliques of relays.
> 
> proposals and patches welcome :)

Maybe the Tor network needs an IDS ;)

> best regards,
> 




From shelley at misanthropia.org  Thu Nov 12 07:28:08 2015
From: shelley at misanthropia.org (Shelley)
Date: Thu, 12 Nov 2015 07:28:08 -0800
Subject: States Storing And Selling Your DNA At Birth Without Explicit
 Notice Consent (TBA: Hospitals Doctors Testlabs Too)
In-Reply-To: <20151112132530.GA2642@sivokote.iziade.m$>
References: <CAD2Ti2-LSL4ovgzLKiy5YRuQCnp6outB2RQNq4W0oPN9ioUz9w@mail.gmail.com>
 <20151112132530.GA2642@sivokote.iziade.m$>
Message-ID: <20151112152752.66C6C68009F@frontend2.nyi.internal>

On November 12, 2015 5:33:27 AM Georgi Guninski <guninski at guninski.com> wrote:

> Besides blood, can (parts of) DNA be recovered from other stuff say hair, 
> urine?

Short answer: yes.

http://www.forensicmag.com/articles/2013/04/challenges-dna-testing-and-forensic-analysis-hair-samples

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3792701/

The ease and speed of extracting DNA from a hair sample depends on which 
part of the strand you have.  But, yeah.

-Shelley





From Rayzer at riseup.net  Thu Nov 12 08:21:12 2015
From: Rayzer at riseup.net (Razer)
Date: Thu, 12 Nov 2015 08:21:12 -0800
Subject: Judge enjoins NSA to not collect metadata on attorney or his law
 firm.
In-Reply-To: <2095537388.3663191.1447296791731.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com>
References: <1427148794.3645837.1447295953431.JavaMail.yahoo.ref@mail.yahoo.com>
 <1427148794.3645837.1447295953431.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com>
 <2095537388.3663191.1447296791731.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <5644BC78.1090102@riseup.net>


Does anyone here actually believe the NSA gives a fuck what some pissant
federal judge says?


On 11/11/2015 06:53 PM, jim bell wrote:
> http://news.yahoo.com/u-judge-rules-against-nsa-phone-spying-case-025251888--finance.html
> <http://news.yahoo.com/u-judge-rules-against-nsa-phone-spying-case-025251888--finance.html?soc_src=mail&soc_trk=ma>
>
> By Dustin Volz
> Opponents of mass surveillance cheered the ruling by U.S. District
> Court Judge Richard Leon, who granted an injunction to bar the NSA
> from collecting the phone metadata of California attorney J.J. Little
> and his small legal practice.WASHINGTON (Reuters) - A U.S. federal
> judge on Monday for the first time ordered the National Security
> Agency to cease collecting the phone call records of a lawyer and his
> firm, providing an unprecedented but narrow and largely symbolic
> victory to privacy advocates.
> Unlike previous rulings against the NSA's program to vacuum up
> Americans' call data, which was exposed publicly by former NSA
> contractor Edward Snowden in 2013, Leon’s opinion does not grant a
> stay, meaning it will take effect immediately.
> The decision is of little practical consequence because it is so
> narrow in scope in covering only Little and his firm.
> It also comes just weeks before the NSA is scheduled to end its
> controversial bulk collection program in favor of a more targeted
> system. That new regime, as mandated by Congress earlier this year,
> will become active on Nov. 29.
> But the ruling's language is forceful and represents a win for civil
> liberties groups concerned that NSA surveillance is too intrusive.
> Leon wrote that the case may be the last court evaluation of the NSA's
> bulk metadata collection program.
> "It will not, however, be the last chapter in the ongoing struggle to
> balance privacy rights and national security interests under our
> Constitution in an age of evolving technological wizardry," he wrote.
> On Twitter, Snowden cheered the "historic decision" as one that
> concluded the NSA “violated Americans’ privacy rights.”
> Leon, a conservative judge appointed by former President George W.
> Bush, has long been among the most vocal judges critical of the NSA’s
> spying practices.
> Leon said he did not stay his Monday decision “because it has been
> almost two years since I first found that the NSA’s bulk telephony
> metadata program likely violates the Constitution."
> Other plaintiffs in the case, including conservative activist Larry
> Klayman, who began the lawsuit, were not included in the ruling, due
> to issues concerning standing.
> A higher court previously rejected Klayman’s challenge, saying he
> could not prove his phone was targeted by the NSA as Snowden’s
> documents only revealed customers of Verizon Business Network
> Services, which is a subsidiary of Verizon Communications, such as
> Little, were implicated. Klayman added Little to his case to address
> the standing concern.
>
>


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From admin at pilobilus.net  Thu Nov 12 06:23:14 2015
From: admin at pilobilus.net (Steve Kinney)
Date: Thu, 12 Nov 2015 09:23:14 -0500
Subject: New functionality of Facebook
In-Reply-To: <CAD2Ti2-JQVphha8kCWAeLUm0X=8XVu541i7K6ribC9QjSaGG4w@mail.gmail.com>
References: <5642F5D4.1080009@gmail.com>
 <CAD2Ti2-JQVphha8kCWAeLUm0X=8XVu541i7K6ribC9QjSaGG4w@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <5644A0D2.8070809@pilobilus.net>

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1

On 11/11/2015 05:06 AM, grarpamp wrote:
> On Wed, Nov 11, 2015 at 3:01 AM, Tomas Overdrive Petru
> <tpetru at gmail.com> wrote:
>> I know nobody will like this, because mood is fck Facebook
>> here, but I like this small step as example:

[ ... ]

> As with everything out of your control, it's subject to change
> and error.

Reference to The Facebook's interaction with one's e-mail accounts
reminds me of the system's persistent attempts to obtain an all
access pass to peoples' e-mail accounts.  For about a year The
Facebook;s login process asked for the password to the e-mail
address I provided when creating an account:  Just so they could
gank my address book and spam everyone on it to "Friend" me, or so
the pop-up said.

There's a lot to dislike about The Facebook, but I do my best to
assure that my participation causes more harm to the opposition
team than to my own interests.  They do get a constantly updated
map of a big chunk of my real-world social network, and that kind
of collection used to cost money and deplete finite resources
dammit.  But then, so did reaching a receptive audience with
anarchist propaganda and commentary, so, I figure it for a
break-even proposition.

:o)



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From dan at geer.org  Thu Nov 12 07:06:18 2015
From: dan at geer.org (dan at geer.org)
Date: Thu, 12 Nov 2015 10:06:18 -0500
Subject: Facebook censorship
In-Reply-To: Your message of "Fri, 06 Nov 2015 12:43:25 +0000."
 <20151106124325.258dfde9@emailcontrol.org>
Message-ID: <20151112150618.9B651A06E84@palinka.tinho.net>

 | 
 | Assuming all sentient life evolves along the same basic trajectory as
 | ours, they will probably seek some answers to these many questions
 | through experiences they can relate to. But their experiences will
 | never provide meaningful frames of reference. 
 | 

On the above narrow point, see Robin Hanson's "The Great Filter"
http://mason.gmu.edu/~rhanson/greatfilter.html
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Great_Filter

Or, more broadly, Ward & Brownlee's 2000 book _Rare Earth_, such
as the discussion at http://tal.forum2.org/rare

--dan




From dan at geer.org  Thu Nov 12 07:10:07 2015
From: dan at geer.org (dan at geer.org)
Date: Thu, 12 Nov 2015 10:10:07 -0500
Subject: Facebook censorship
In-Reply-To: Your message of "Fri, 06 Nov 2015 12:48:00 +0000."
 <20151106124800.16c63521@emailcontrol.org>
Message-ID: <20151112151007.7FE3BA06E13@palinka.tinho.net>

Cubed writes:
 | Totally. Also, to see more evidence of these interactions, see the last
 | several flash crashes in the US stock markets. What's happening in
 | several of those situations is algos from competing brokerages
 | producing extreme unexpected results. Market crashes, pull the plug,
 | fix the algo or introduce some "rule". Rules being, IMO often
 | just a band-aid for not fixing the code and admitting it was technology
 | that ran away from them.


See "When Robots Collude"
uk.businessinsider.com/robots-colluding-to-manipulate-markets-2015-4

gist: when algorithms learn to defraud, what does LE do?


--dan




From dal at riseup.net  Thu Nov 12 08:29:37 2015
From: dal at riseup.net (Douglas Lucas)
Date: Thu, 12 Nov 2015 10:29:37 -0600
Subject: 2 WikiLeaks questions
Message-ID: <5644BE71.1010007@riseup.net>

1. It's not my theory, but what do you make of the theory that WikiLeaks
would go under if it were not of the steady stream of celebrity
endorsements (Lady Gaga, Pamela Anderson, many more)? Is hugely
emphasized "soft power" a necessary component for a cabal out to change
the world? Or could, say, a cabal demonstrate more independence and
still be supported by enough people who do not need their hands held to
the conclusion by Lady Gaga?

2. How could/should an organization with more than two million followers
tweet in order to improve the world? Could it give the public specific,
actionable instructions for overthrowing governments and corporations?
They might have to be less specific, so as not to qualify as threats
that would get the account closed. But the account could massively
amplify the instructions to the public given by victims such as Doctors
Without Borders. Or it could organize boycotts of private spy firms such
as Stratfor. What do you think? People who care about branding might
argue that such tweets wouldn't fit WikiLeaks' brand, but things can be
easily framed as freedom of the press/speech or crytography--e.g.,
something like Israel's attacks on Gaza: you can't publish accounts of
injuctice with Tor when bombed to death.




From ryacko at gmail.com  Thu Nov 12 11:21:46 2015
From: ryacko at gmail.com (Ryan Carboni)
Date: Thu, 12 Nov 2015 11:21:46 -0800
Subject: Fwd: 2 WikiLeaks questions
In-Reply-To: <CAO7N=i2+E_uZRxVKA8o4qbSp14FERrRpBUHQVO7Y8ik0+JXy-g@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAO7N=i2+E_uZRxVKA8o4qbSp14FERrRpBUHQVO7Y8ik0+JXy-g@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAO7N=i1BkrNwyFxYzp+rsN21COmg1kBa9fdzusXVY9QE6Zu3MQ@mail.gmail.com>

---------- Forwarded message ----------
From: Ryan Carboni <ryacko at gmail.com>
Date: Thu, Nov 12, 2015 at 10:15 AM
Subject: Re: 2 WikiLeaks questions
To: dal at riseup.net


Woah, woah, woah. Back up. The Palestinians started this whole mess by
trying to kick the Jews out in the 1947 civil war, while there were Jewish
attacks on British institutions, the Arabs committed the bulk of the
violence. The only feasible peace process is for the Palestinians to
integrate into the Israeli community, which is impossible because any moves
towards a peace process will get you assassinated in the Middle East
(Sadat, Rabin).

Furthermore, wikileaks made it too obvious that they were pawns of Russian
intelligence, they post a form letter from McCain to the Russian Ambassador
asking for donations?  They cavort with a Russian lawyer? If you behave as
an enemy to US interests, US interests will treat you the same (and if you
read the Rancid Honeytrap, you'll be surprised at the extent of US
penetration into US society). Wikileaks should have towed a strict
moralistic line making it clear they should not receive an appropriate
response.

It's too bad the US intelligence community insults their own employees
intelligence. The only reason why they don't want leaks is because once
something is leaked, it becomes OSINT, not HUMINT. And HUMINT gets
expensive, and the last thing you want is explain to an intelligence
committee why Botswana is equally effective at intelligence as you. But if
they advertise to their employees that being loyal is a pointless endeavor,
that'll just drive down the price of espionage. It's really a silly thing.

Ultimately, if wikileaks wanted to enact positive change, as opposed to
behaving like narcissistic morons, well, it's too late for that. But
obviously don't stick your penis into a white woman who's anti-Castro.
Young white people don't give a damn about Castro. Only the CIA cares about
Castro.

Wikileaks got what it deserved.
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From jya at pipeline.com  Thu Nov 12 08:35:17 2015
From: jya at pipeline.com (John Young)
Date: Thu, 12 Nov 2015 11:35:17 -0500
Subject: Appeals Court Stayed: Re: Judge enjoins NSA to not collect
 metadata on attorney or his law firm.
In-Reply-To: <5644BC78.1090102@riseup.net>
References: <1427148794.3645837.1447295953431.JavaMail.yahoo.ref@mail.yahoo.com>
 <1427148794.3645837.1447295953431.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com>
 <2095537388.3663191.1447296791731.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com>
 <5644BC78.1090102@riseup.net>
Message-ID: <E1Zwup3-0007T5-7b@elasmtp-mealy.atl.sa.earthlink.net>

An appeals court stayed the judge's order on 10 November 2015.
DoJ filed 241 pages to win the stay:

https://cryptome.org/2015/11/klayman-stay-15-1110.pdf (8.1MB)



At 11:21 AM 11/12/2015, you wrote:

>Does anyone here actually believe the NSA gives a fuck what some pissant
>federal judge says?





From coderman at gmail.com  Thu Nov 12 13:08:29 2015
From: coderman at gmail.com (coderman)
Date: Thu, 12 Nov 2015 13:08:29 -0800
Subject: FOIPA adventures
In-Reply-To: <CAJVRA1QCOcWiw8jAPGHka_i1sdNVHEv-=b4_2UUYc1HAOwAcKQ@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAJVRA1SaJpNaPQx=s_7VVM==ony2sH0aUG3w11cjNX6escSm8w@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAJVRA1TUfu40206TOzK2kBsgCvbgBYYXmyKZ3E5n4KQuoEtZyg@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAJVRA1QtgMky_hsDLsmFwiXcxE528bZaDOQsjTqqj4tR-dbGBQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAJVRA1RwoyoRs-REWnhGd8cHZM6EJvcziTUDXbU5A6TMigOT6A@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAJVRA1Rwaq1fvE8p-s1JwOANvMc7X2E75bx5eNd4KGJapt6Nuw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAJVRA1TU5Frg3WOJk+3ZFEH0QAFya5xZnwzCfCUE+hL1NhKUFg@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAJVRA1Q0SDo9Fj3KAU9vA3cxR2=7pwcdpO3Ex=yi6g2WtRAg6A@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAJVRA1Srrb08Z9XvG+rYq30p2E_MnhJA6ynOLpdT--6gCvwiyQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAJVRA1RXD2dr16TJZK-MPcJm7nR0Ov=Dp9i5Anf5hKNFs2hq7w@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAJVRA1S97DSPk0NBjgon1LS4HHuGtq_03dqFppUnWq+t61a41A@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAJVRA1SyW_wOUcFUo6STbiePO8HmLV9LgF-PCgugvuPRD_tKWA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAJVRA1QaYYF=hoSQiSd4SHNUj-W6hjEJDhy1KxR9CfFKDgNkew@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAJVRA1TvZxj_qz6_xK8h13LOD-5mE6iNvT9dnThf4ue0_=kY3Q@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAJVRA1RbeuzfiVAOqaZ15p8kr67jxcBoNMOrJkt3K86_=FuVXw@mail.gmail.com>
 <000701d0bcb7$94118e80$bc34ab80$@co.uk>
 <CAJVRA1SE1O-PqmkV8vX=q5j_xs-YFOpH=OLxSvwaT8BBvadQmA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAJVRA1TwM3Re8Tz6NPxp_CeY5C4K3QN+Ceo5VbW3JKMbBABv9g@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAJVRA1SbqTrEbUJ84rLFWdu6+psY5uUzu-ZsVfyUwoSaMRcGdQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAJVRA1RDN6HsLCbF_wsK+zARO9PaEn80R9FSGnWgGVF4XkbbpQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAJVRA1Rt2gKvgnM0MCiqf2Q4vJ8wWxm=KabcQXeBYSqn4zRvKg@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAJVRA1Q95CKTVahkfQeH_pwaGDcgJ-4OL2=9o5ckQrZLG8HeUA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAJVRA1SyX65OE9-7DQ1hP1fGWHxY8rvCqFXhKPu4Oy4o6wt0gg@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAJVRA1SgoLtLFS9AFf_d043AGDVbKp4djDtijDR+zfCRJ8twTA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAJVRA1SvN5ML7TQnOUqz78PhYv8aefz=k8-4fPOwv2uHUVF3_w@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAJVRA1Ry2EV7qaFHmZJ9cjm8-waCNBCzenO9BpqW+YKChEHX7w@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAJVRA1S5juVmB6Ouy0JWbdeJdj9yz0W6tKQDY2q_zi+AC461EA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAJVRA1SYO0ia4VGLwFwZFowkD75YR61MC1TNc1wzHbZtmhy1_w@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAJVRA1SqWMVy6m6KuiJWQQG_6XPWoB+86-p45PWKvfn8wg_jeA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAJVRA1RWaiCZtig6+Seyk-UN9M3h9+2iZ0Otnqb6n=AFcRAeRw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAJVRA1QzHeh=rs0hRf0sugLZdbXvAhK+2Yte5Tbt_Tnv5Tf8mg@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAJVRA1SdAW+36Z8yYTdSFTtz8S8U5aiELv5NiuXg5Rg-vaFYew@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAJVRA1Svk488ax6sd4oy52rfM_u_E1EuzhUAQt6cQ2Jy5yRx5g@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAJVRA1S4=X5P6hKnZu224GjseL5ws1vRm6Gk4gJ+DG06oLjaDA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAJVRA1RsgoKvADCcRz76vj1xjT+EQDB96tw7-sgg_pf+BGzA=A@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAJVRA1TOMYnBh0-B=uh6n2HsOsFdY+SKVG-=XqKi6WPNro++PA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAJVRA1Qao1qE2kBSbb_V5NPQ7PF--VFnYQpc=08wY2_ZURz4hg@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAJVRA1S45TEydVoKDxW9SfC0DKcSdxB_HfjrvcZQjU5uymfFOQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAD2Ti29j9qCnTCBEpaTj9B2NdWpLQoAiT02QzbitiART9tFg6A@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAJVRA1SAOUWi485z=_VRnhLu=EL1c8rVQOvdFz09-P4TjbLHww@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAJVRA1T0E3Lny4YPOjvvCtpSZOmx5dim+nw7e_Zzz-PYXNUAjg@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAJVRA1TtoL+tz0XYxNPSV7oE7HBVWORZ65Og6hrREQzreN6ozw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAJVRA1TbbVJ-88nHq0GKMhS5Z3GQ+=jCqv2E49FS=4L2+xQeFg@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAJVRA1SmqVnWdic5s6f8pk_GxVZ9-hr+d+siOaTWLbtvurk23Q@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAJVRA1Q-aARB1bqZ6k1TWf=kfnSNRiKqeaCa=FAJoFK2bXjd-A@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAJVRA1QCOcWiw8jAPGHka_i1sdNVHEv-=b4_2UUYc1HAOwAcKQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAJVRA1Q63E-BGJn1ozk5sDfe9RuKNA0jhai6Lzxb63-Tq54UGQ@mail.gmail.com>

got a no responsive documents reply to this FOIA:
  https://www.muckrock.com/foi/united-states-of-america-10/guidedincrements-22195/
wherein they stated,
 "There were no responsive records with a count of the classification guides"

no kidding! you literal asshats :)


thus follows:
'''
First page (redacted if necessary) of each and every Classification
Guide produced by Original Classification Authorities (OCAs) on behalf
of the Secretary of Homeland Security within the Department per
Executive Order 13526- Original Classification Authority. Please
provide the first page of each responsive document for all years
available. Note that a count of these is not necessary, as was
requested in closed request DHS/OS/PRIV 2016-HQFO-00048. I will pipe a
ls into wc to count them myself. Thank you!
'''
 - https://www.muckrock.com/foi/united-states-of-america-10/incrementbypage-22388/


best regards,




From grarpamp at gmail.com  Thu Nov 12 10:25:59 2015
From: grarpamp at gmail.com (grarpamp)
Date: Thu, 12 Nov 2015 13:25:59 -0500
Subject: Cpunk Propaganda To Reach The Sheeple [New functionality of Facebook]
Message-ID: <CAD2Ti2_hHPa09TO8tjfwYcBXZLu-q4ScpoLghwoccL03-Fdh6g@mail.gmail.com>

On Thu, Nov 12, 2015 at 9:23 AM, Steve Kinney <admin at pilobilus.net> wrote:
> There's a lot to dislike about The Facebook, but I do my best to
> assure that my participation causes more harm to the opposition
> team than to my own interests.  They do get a constantly updated
> map of a big chunk of my real-world social network, and that kind
> of collection used to cost money and deplete finite resources
> dammit.  But then, so did reaching a receptive audience with
> anarchist propaganda and commentary, so, I figure it for a
> break-even proposition.

Everyone bitches about having a hard time reaching the sheeple,
from their tech lab in the basement that is. So similar above, to
reach them you have to go to them, to their boring online "forums"
and facebooks, the ones about football, beer, trucks, sewing, baby
raising, cooking, etc... just start posting links to news stories you
want them to see... all automated from the comfort of your basement.




From grarpamp at gmail.com  Thu Nov 12 10:45:33 2015
From: grarpamp at gmail.com (grarpamp)
Date: Thu, 12 Nov 2015 13:45:33 -0500
Subject: The Gentleman's Guide To Forum Spies (spooks, feds, etc.)
In-Reply-To: <20151112180951.GC7122@ctrlc.hu>
References: <20151112180951.GC7122@ctrlc.hu>
Message-ID: <CAD2Ti2_tuM9b8wOsdVBXqkpc-eKxFETvyLxOQgM6HazkUWYE3g@mail.gmail.com>

On Thu, Nov 12, 2015 at 1:09 PM, stef <s at ctrlc.hu> wrote:
> for those who have not seen this and those who are unaware of the things going
> on here:

"
Censor Kitty denies access
Pastebin.com has blocked your IP :(
We have blocked your IP from accessing our website because we have
detected unnatural browsing behavior. Depending on the violation, the
block could be temporary, but also permanent.
"

You're getting fucked, by a deep matrix of fuck, that's what's going on, bruh.




From grarpamp at gmail.com  Thu Nov 12 10:56:33 2015
From: grarpamp at gmail.com (grarpamp)
Date: Thu, 12 Nov 2015 13:56:33 -0500
Subject: Ethical Tor
In-Reply-To: <56448891.4090001@riseup.net>
References: <CAO7N=i0dOPPPEsHO08T=QDzyvwHZkzN=Qu=T0R3Hgh2RhRbDEg@mail.gmail.com>
 <56440D6D.1040705@riseup.net>
 <CAJVRA1Sd4T8Qdm6yBbfgzHY0UV5+yn4ewKA_NNnRbkCV64FwAg@mail.gmail.com>
 <56445AFA.5010206@riseup.net>
 <CAJVRA1QnwfNn1gg0h0Rf5zujOrwHrwqxvus3e8v6mAzkGCmLtA@mail.gmail.com>
 <56448891.4090001@riseup.net>
Message-ID: <CAD2Ti28B07ocunK3bwjYjA0HdRV+dpfay5mf0aB1Kb6cc3S13A@mail.gmail.com>

> On 11/12/2015 03:12 AM, coderman wrote:
>> you would not believe the kinds of fucked up clients and relays that
>> participate in the Tor network! even the friendly implementations in
>> Java or Rust have at times failed in ways that look like an attack.
>>
>> i don't think people appreciate the scale, complexity, and novelty of
>> activity in the Tor ecosystem.

Encrypted anonymous p2p overlay networks...
inside them it's brand new internets, with no rules
other than the code, ftw!

> Maybe the Tor network needs an IDS ;)

Run one on your hidden service today.




From grarpamp at gmail.com  Thu Nov 12 11:05:46 2015
From: grarpamp at gmail.com (grarpamp)
Date: Thu, 12 Nov 2015 14:05:46 -0500
Subject: Appeals Court Stayed: Re: Judge enjoins NSA to not collect
 metadata on attorney or his law firm.
In-Reply-To: <1111039685.4260304.1447354072975.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com>
References: <E1Zwup3-0007T5-7b@elasmtp-mealy.atl.sa.earthlink.net>
 <1111039685.4260304.1447354072975.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <CAD2Ti28=bO4LhmZB2hTvyu6E+MSU1FdeMs_yP_usOC4JSD5zww@mail.gmail.com>

On Thu, Nov 12, 2015 at 1:47 PM, jim bell <jdb10987 at yahoo.com> wrote:
> The document url you cited, an order by the District Judge, was dated the
> same day as "An appeals court stayed the judge's order on 10 November 2015."
> That would be a quick stay!   Are we talking about the same stay?

Administrative stay issued for time to ponder the govt's appeal,
nothing was actually ruled on, it's on hold for another week.




From tbiehn at gmail.com  Thu Nov 12 11:09:30 2015
From: tbiehn at gmail.com (Travis Biehn)
Date: Thu, 12 Nov 2015 14:09:30 -0500
Subject: The Gentleman's Guide To Forum Spies (spooks, feds, etc.)
In-Reply-To: <20151112190039.GE7122@ctrlc.hu>
References: <20151112180951.GC7122@ctrlc.hu>
 <CAD2Ti2_tuM9b8wOsdVBXqkpc-eKxFETvyLxOQgM6HazkUWYE3g@mail.gmail.com>
 <20151112190039.GE7122@ctrlc.hu>
Message-ID: <CAKtE3zdApWSbZhCWr0Mf-GfuhP=R93i+B1274vxymVZdNziN9w@mail.gmail.com>

On Thu, Nov 12, 2015 at 2:00 PM, stef <s at ctrlc.hu> wrote:

> On Thu, Nov 12, 2015 at 01:45:33PM -0500, grarpamp wrote:
> > "
> > Censor Kitty denies access
> > Pastebin.com has blocked your IP :(
> > We have blocked your IP from accessing our website because we have
> > detected unnatural browsing behavior. Depending on the violation, the
> > block could be temporary, but also permanent.
> > "
> >
> > You're getting fucked, by a deep matrix of fuck, that's what's going on,
> bruh.
>
> goddamn pastebin blocks tor exitnodes. pastebin ops hate freedom :/
>
> --
> otr fp: https://www.ctrlc.hu/~stef/otr.txt
>

*publishes list on how to spot forum spies*
*forum spies suddenly disappear*

Did they give up? Or simply switch tactics?

-Travis

Pasted for tinfoil:

1. COINTELPRO Techniques for dilution, misdirection and control of a
internet forum
2. Twenty-Five Rules of Disinformation
3. Eight Traits of the Disinformationalist
4. How to Spot a Spy (Cointelpro Agent)
5. Seventeen Techniques for Truth Suppression
______________________________________________________________________________________


COINTELPRO Techniques for dilution, misdirection and control of a internet
forum..

There are several techniques for the control and manipulation of a internet
forum no matter what, or who is on it. We will go over each technique and
demonstrate that only a minimal number of operatives can be used to
eventually and effectively gain a control of a 'uncontrolled forum.'

Technique #1 - 'FORUM SLIDING'

If a very sensitive posting of a critical nature has been posted on a forum
- it can be quickly removed from public view by 'forum sliding.' In this
technique a number of unrelated posts are quietly prepositioned on the
forum and allowed to 'age.' Each of these misdirectional forum postings can
then be called upon at will to trigger a 'forum slide.' The second
requirement is that several fake accounts exist, which can be called upon,
to ensure that this technique is not exposed to the public. To trigger a
'forum slide' and 'flush' the critical post out of public view it is simply
a matter of logging into each account both real and fake and then
'replying' to prepositined postings with a simple 1 or 2 line comment. This
brings the unrelated postings to the top of the forum list, and the
critical posting 'slides' down the front page, and quickly out of public
view. Although it is difficult or impossible to censor the posting it is
now lost in a sea of unrelated and unuseful postings. By this means it
becomes effective to keep the readers of the forum reading unrelated and
non-issue items.

Technique #2 - 'CONSENSUS CRACKING'

A second highly effective technique (which you can see in operation all the
time at www.abovetopsecret.com) is 'consensus cracking.' To develop a
consensus crack, the following technique is used. Under the guise of a fake
account a posting is made which looks legitimate and is towards the truth
is made - but the critical point is that it has a VERY WEAK PREMISE without
substantive proof to back the posting. Once this is done then under
alternative fake accounts a very strong position in your favour is slowly
introduced over the life of the posting. It is IMPERATIVE that both sides
are initially presented, so the uninformed reader cannot determine which
side is the truth. As postings and replies are made the stronger 'evidence'
or disinformation in your favour is slowly 'seeded in.' Thus the uninformed
reader will most like develop the same position as you, and if their
position is against you their opposition to your posting will be most
likely dropped. However in some cases where the forum members are highly
educated and can counter your disinformation with real facts and linked
postings, you can then 'abort' the consensus cracking by initiating a
'forum slide.'

Technique #3 - 'TOPIC DILUTION'

Topic dilution is not only effective in forum sliding it is also very
useful in keeping the forum readers on unrelated and non-productive issues.
This is a critical and useful technique to cause a 'RESOURCE BURN.' By
implementing continual and non-related postings that distract and disrupt
(trolling ) the forum readers they are more effectively stopped from
anything of any real productivity. If the intensity of gradual dilution is
intense enough, the readers will effectively stop researching and simply
slip into a 'gossip mode.' In this state they can be more easily
misdirected away from facts towards uninformed conjecture and opinion. The
less informed they are the more effective and easy it becomes to control
the entire group in the direction that you would desire the group to go in.
It must be stressed that a proper assessment of the psychological
capabilities and levels of education is first determined of the group to
determine at what level to 'drive in the wedge.' By being too far off topic
too quickly it may trigger censorship by a forum moderator.

Technique #4 - 'INFORMATION COLLECTION'

Information collection is also a very effective method to determine the
psychological level of the forum members, and to gather intelligence that
can be used against them. In this technique in a light and positive
environment a 'show you mine so me yours' posting is initiated. From the
number of replies and the answers that are provided much statistical
information can be gathered. An example is to post your 'favourite weapon'
and then encourage other members of the forum to showcase what they have.
In this matter it can be determined by reverse proration what percentage of
the forum community owns a firearm, and or a illegal weapon. This same
method can be used by posing as one of the form members and posting your
favourite 'technique of operation.' From the replies various methods that
the group utilizes can be studied and effective methods developed to stop
them from their activities.

Technique #5 - 'ANGER TROLLING'

Statistically, there is always a percentage of the forum posters who are
more inclined to violence. In order to determine who these individuals are,
it is a requirement to present a image to the forum to deliberately incite
a strong psychological reaction. From this the most violent in the group
can be effectively singled out for reverse IP location and possibly local
enforcement tracking. To accomplish this only requires posting a link to a
video depicting a local police officer massively abusing his power against
a very innocent individual. Statistically of the million or so police
officers in America there is always one or two being caught abusing there
powers and the taping of the activity can be then used for intelligence
gathering purposes - without the requirement to 'stage' a fake abuse video.
This method is extremely effective, and the more so the more abusive the
video can be made to look. Sometimes it is useful to 'lead' the forum by
replying to your own posting with your own statement of violent intent, and
that you 'do not care what the authorities think!!' inflammation. By doing
this and showing no fear it may be more effective in getting the more
silent and self-disciplined violent intent members of the forum to slip and
post their real intentions. This can be used later in a court of law during
prosecution.

Technique #6 - 'GAINING FULL CONTROL'

It is important to also be harvesting and continually maneuvering for a
forum moderator position. Once this position is obtained, the forum can
then be effectively and quietly controlled by deleting unfavourable
postings - and one can eventually steer the forum into complete failure and
lack of interest by the general public. This is the 'ultimate victory' as
the forum is no longer participated with by the general public and no
longer useful in maintaining their freedoms. Depending on the level of
control you can obtain, you can deliberately steer a forum into defeat by
censoring postings, deleting memberships, flooding, and or accidentally
taking the forum offline. By this method the forum can be quickly killed.
However it is not always in the interest to kill a forum as it can be
converted into a 'honey pot' gathering center to collect and misdirect
newcomers and from this point be completely used for your control for your
agenda purposes.

CONCLUSION

Remember these techniques are only effective if the forum participants DO
NOT KNOW ABOUT THEM. Once they are aware of these techniques the operation
can completely fail, and the forum can become uncontrolled. At this point
other avenues must be considered such as initiating a false legal
precidence to simply have the forum shut down and taken offline. This is
not desirable as it then leaves the enforcement agencies unable to track
the percentage of those in the population who always resist attempts for
control against them. Many other techniques can be utilized and developed
by the individual and as you develop further techniques of infiltration and
control it is imperative to share then with HQ.
______________________________________________________________________________________

Twenty-Five Rules of Disinformation

Note: The first rule and last five (or six, depending on situation) rules
are generally not directly within the ability of the traditional disinfo
artist to apply. These rules are generally used more directly by those at
the leadership, key players, or planning level of the criminal conspiracy
or conspiracy to cover up.

1. Hear no evil, see no evil, speak no evil. Regardless of what you know,
don't discuss it -- especially if you are a public figure, news anchor,
etc. If it's not reported, it didn't happen, and you never have to deal
with the issues.

2. Become incredulous and indignant. Avoid discussing key issues and
instead focus on side issues which can be used show the topic as being
critical of some otherwise sacrosanct group or theme. This is also known as
the 'How dare you!' gambit.

3. Create rumor mongers. Avoid discussing issues by describing all charges,
regardless of venue or evidence, as mere rumors and wild accusations. Other
derogatory terms mutually exclusive of truth may work as well. This method
which works especially well with a silent press, because the only way the
public can learn of the facts are through such 'arguable rumors'. If you
can associate the material with the Internet, use this fact to certify it a
'wild rumor' from a 'bunch of kids on the Internet' which can have no basis
in fact.

4. Use a straw man. Find or create a seeming element of your opponent's
argument which you can easily knock down to make yourself look good and the
opponent to look bad. Either make up an issue you may safely imply exists
based on your interpretation of the opponent/opponent arguments/situation,
or select the weakest aspect of the weakest charges. Amplify their
significance and destroy them in a way which appears to debunk all the
charges, real and fabricated alike, while actually avoiding discussion of
the real issues.

5. Sidetrack opponents with name calling and ridicule. This is also known
as the primary 'attack the messenger' ploy, though other methods qualify as
variants of that approach. Associate opponents with unpopular titles such
as 'kooks', 'right-wing', 'liberal', 'left-wing', 'terrorists', 'conspiracy
buffs', 'radicals', 'militia', 'racists', 'religious fanatics', 'sexual
deviates', and so forth. This makes others shrink from support out of fear
of gaining the same label, and you avoid dealing with issues.

6. Hit and Run. In any public forum, make a brief attack of your opponent
or the opponent position and then scamper off before an answer can be
fielded, or simply ignore any answer. This works extremely well in Internet
and letters-to-the-editor environments where a steady stream of new
identities can be called upon without having to explain criticism,
reasoning -- simply make an accusation or other attack, never discussing
issues, and never answering any subsequent response, for that would dignify
the opponent's viewpoint.

7. Question motives. Twist or amplify any fact which could be taken to
imply that the opponent operates out of a hidden personal agenda or other
bias. This avoids discussing issues and forces the accuser on the defensive.

8. Invoke authority. Claim for yourself or associate yourself with
authority and present your argument with enough 'jargon' and 'minutia' to
illustrate you are 'one who knows', and simply say it isn't so without
discussing issues or demonstrating concretely why or citing sources.

9. Play Dumb. No matter what evidence or logical argument is offered, avoid
discussing issues except with denials they have any credibility, make any
sense, provide any proof, contain or make a point, have logic, or support a
conclusion. Mix well for maximum effect.

10. Associate opponent charges with old news. A derivative of the straw man
-- usually, in any large-scale matter of high visibility, someone will make
charges early on which can be or were already easily dealt with - a kind of
investment for the future should the matter not be so easily contained.)
Where it can be foreseen, have your own side raise a straw man issue and
have it dealt with early on as part of the initial contingency plans.
Subsequent charges, regardless of validity or new ground uncovered, can
usually then be associated with the original charge and dismissed as simply
being a rehash without need to address current issues -- so much the better
where the opponent is or was involved with the original source.

11. Establish and rely upon fall-back positions. Using a minor matter or
element of the facts, take the 'high road' and 'confess' with candor that
some innocent mistake, in hindsight, was made -- but that opponents have
seized on the opportunity to blow it all out of proportion and imply
greater criminalities which, 'just isn't so.' Others can reinforce this on
your behalf, later, and even publicly 'call for an end to the nonsense'
because you have already 'done the right thing.' Done properly, this can
garner sympathy and respect for 'coming clean' and 'owning up' to your
mistakes without addressing more serious issues.

12. Enigmas have no solution. Drawing upon the overall umbrella of events
surrounding the crime and the multitude of players and events, paint the
entire affair as too complex to solve. This causes those otherwise
following the matter to begin to lose interest more quickly without having
to address the actual issues.

13. Alice in Wonderland Logic. Avoid discussion of the issues by reasoning
backwards or with an apparent deductive logic which forbears any actual
material fact.

14. Demand complete solutions. Avoid the issues by requiring opponents to
solve the crime at hand completely, a ploy which works best with issues
qualifying for rule 10.

15. Fit the facts to alternate conclusions. This requires creative thinking
unless the crime was planned with contingency conclusions in place.

16. Vanish evidence and witnesses. If it does not exist, it is not fact,
and you won't have to address the issue.

17. Change the subject. Usually in connection with one of the other ploys
listed here, find a way to side-track the discussion with abrasive or
controversial comments in hopes of turning attention to a new, more
manageable topic. This works especially well with companions who can
'argue' with you over the new topic and polarize the discussion arena in
order to avoid discussing more key issues.

18. Emotionalize, Antagonize, and Goad Opponents. If you can't do anything
else, chide and taunt your opponents and draw them into emotional responses
which will tend to make them look foolish and overly motivated, and
generally render their material somewhat less coherent. Not only will you
avoid discussing the issues in the first instance, but even if their
emotional response addresses the issue, you can further avoid the issues by
then focusing on how 'sensitive they are to criticism.'

19. Ignore proof presented, demand impossible proofs. This is perhaps a
variant of the 'play dumb' rule. Regardless of what material may be
presented by an opponent in public forums, claim the material irrelevant
and demand proof that is impossible for the opponent to come by (it may
exist, but not be at his disposal, or it may be something which is known to
be safely destroyed or withheld, such as a murder weapon.) In order to
completely avoid discussing issues, it may be required that you to
categorically deny and be critical of media or books as valid sources, deny
that witnesses are acceptable, or even deny that statements made by
government or other authorities have any meaning or relevance.

20. False evidence. Whenever possible, introduce new facts or clues
designed and manufactured to conflict with opponent presentations -- as
useful tools to neutralize sensitive issues or impede resolution. This
works best when the crime was designed with contingencies for the purpose,
and the facts cannot be easily separated from the fabrications.

21. Call a Grand Jury, Special Prosecutor, or other empowered investigative
body. Subvert the (process) to your benefit and effectively neutralize all
sensitive issues without open discussion. Once convened, the evidence and
testimony are required to be secret when properly handled. For instance, if
you own the prosecuting attorney, it can insure a Grand Jury hears no
useful evidence and that the evidence is sealed and unavailable to
subsequent investigators. Once a favorable verdict is achieved, the matter
can be considered officially closed. Usually, this technique is applied to
find the guilty innocent, but it can also be used to obtain charges when
seeking to frame a victim.

22. Manufacture a new truth. Create your own expert(s), group(s),
author(s), leader(s) or influence existing ones willing to forge new ground
via scientific, investigative, or social research or testimony which
concludes favorably. In this way, if you must actually address issues, you
can do so authoritatively.

23. Create bigger distractions. If the above does not seem to be working to
distract from sensitive issues, or to prevent unwanted media coverage of
unstoppable events such as trials, create bigger news stories (or treat
them as such) to distract the multitudes.

24. Silence critics. If the above methods do not prevail, consider removing
opponents from circulation by some definitive solution so that the need to
address issues is removed entirely. This can be by their death, arrest and
detention, blackmail or destruction of their character by release of
blackmail information, or merely by destroying them financially,
emotionally, or severely damaging their health.

25. Vanish. If you are a key holder of secrets or otherwise overly
illuminated and you think the heat is getting too hot, to avoid the issues,
vacate the kitchen.
______________________________________________________________________________________

Eight Traits of the Disinformationalist

1) Avoidance. They never actually discuss issues head-on or provide
constructive input, generally avoiding citation of references or
credentials. Rather, they merely imply this, that, and the other. Virtually
everything about their presentation implies their authority and expert
knowledge in the matter without any further justification for credibility.

2) Selectivity. They tend to pick and choose opponents carefully, either
applying the hit-and-run approach against mere commentators supportive of
opponents, or focusing heavier attacks on key opponents who are known to
directly address issues. Should a commentator become argumentative with any
success, the focus will shift to include the commentator as well.

3) Coincidental. They tend to surface suddenly and somewhat coincidentally
with a new controversial topic with no clear prior record of participation
in general discussions in the particular public arena involved. They
likewise tend to vanish once the topic is no longer of general concern.
They were likely directed or elected to be there for a reason, and vanish
with the reason.

4) Teamwork. They tend to operate in self-congratulatory and complementary
packs or teams. Of course, this can happen naturally in any public forum,
but there will likely be an ongoing pattern of frequent exchanges of this
sort where professionals are involved. Sometimes one of the players will
infiltrate the opponent camp to become a source for straw man or other
tactics designed to dilute opponent presentation strength.

5) Anti-conspiratorial. They almost always have disdain for 'conspiracy
theorists' and, usually, for those who in any way believe JFK was not
killed by LHO. Ask yourself why, if they hold such disdain for conspiracy
theorists, do they focus on defending a single topic discussed in a NG
focusing on conspiracies? One might think they would either be trying to
make fools of everyone on every topic, or simply ignore the group they hold
in such disdain.Or, one might more rightly conclude they have an ulterior
motive for their actions in going out of their way to focus as they do.

6) Artificial Emotions. An odd kind of 'artificial' emotionalism and an
unusually thick skin -- an ability to persevere and persist even in the
face of overwhelming criticism and unacceptance. This likely stems from
intelligence community training that, no matter how condemning the
evidence, deny everything, and never become emotionally involved or
reactive. The net result for a disinfo artist is that emotions can seem
artificial.

Most people, if responding in anger, for instance, will express their
animosity throughout their rebuttal. But disinfo types usually have trouble
maintaining the 'image' and are hot and cold with respect to pretended
emotions and their usually more calm or unemotional communications style.
It's just a job, and they often seem unable to 'act their role in
character' as well in a communications medium as they might be able in a
real face-to-face conversation/confrontation. You might have outright rage
and indignation one moment, ho-hum the next, and more anger later -- an
emotional yo-yo.

With respect to being thick-skinned, no amount of criticism will deter them
from doing their job, and they will generally continue their old disinfo
patterns without any adjustments to criticisms of how obvious it is that
they play that game -- where a more rational individual who truly cares
what others think might seek to improve their communications style,
substance, and so forth, or simply give up.

7) Inconsistent. There is also a tendency to make mistakes which betray
their true self/motives. This may stem from not really knowing their topic,
or it may be somewhat 'freudian', so to speak, in that perhaps they really
root for the side of truth deep within.

I have noted that often, they will simply cite contradictory information
which neutralizes itself and the author. For instance, one such player
claimed to be a Navy pilot, but blamed his poor communicating skills
(spelling, grammar, incoherent style) on having only a grade-school
education. I'm not aware of too many Navy pilots who don't have a college
degree. Another claimed no knowledge of a particular topic/situation but
later claimed first-hand knowledge of it.

8) Time Constant. Recently discovered, with respect to News Groups, is the
response time factor. There are three ways this can be seen to work,
especially when the government or other empowered player is involved in a
cover up operation:

a) ANY NG posting by a targeted proponent for truth can result in an
IMMEDIATE response. The government and other empowered players can afford
to pay people to sit there and watch for an opportunity to do some damage.
SINCE DISINFO IN A NG ONLY WORKS IF THE READER SEES IT - FAST RESPONSE IS
CALLED FOR, or the visitor may be swayed towards truth.

b) When dealing in more direct ways with a disinformationalist, such as
email, DELAY IS CALLED FOR - there will usually be a minimum of a 48-72
hour delay. This allows a sit-down team discussion on response strategy for
best effect, and even enough time to 'get permission' or instruction from a
formal chain of command.

c) In the NG example 1) above, it will often ALSO be seen that bigger guns
are drawn and fired after the same 48-72 hours delay - the team approach in
play. This is especially true when the targeted truth seeker or their
comments are considered more important with respect to potential to reveal
truth. Thus, a serious truth sayer will be attacked twice for the same sin.

______________________________________________________________________________________

How to Spot a Spy (Cointelpro Agent)

One way to neutralize a potential activist is to get them to be in a group
that does all the wrong things. Why?

1) The message doesn't get out.
2) A lot of time is wasted
3) The activist is frustrated and discouraged
4) Nothing good is accomplished.

FBI and Police Informers and Infiltrators will infest any group and they
have phoney activist organizations established.

Their purpose is to prevent any real movement for justice or eco-peace from
developing in this country.

Agents come in small, medium or large. They can be of any ethnic
background. They can be male or female.

The actual size of the group or movement being infiltrated is irrelevant.
It is the potential the movement has for becoming large which brings on the
spies and saboteurs.

This booklet lists tactics agents use to slow things down, foul things up,
destroy the movement and keep tabs on activists.

It is the agent's job to keep the activist from quitting such a group, thus
keeping him/her under control.

In some situations, to get control, the agent will tell the activist:

"You're dividing the movement."

[Here, I have added the psychological reasons as to WHY this maneuver works
to control people]

This invites guilty feelings. Many people can be controlled by guilt. The
agents begin relationships with activists behind a well-developed mask of
"dedication to the cause." Because of their often declared dedication, (and
actions designed to prove this), when they criticize the activist, he or
she - being truly dedicated to the movement - becomes convinced that
somehow, any issues are THEIR fault. This is because a truly dedicated
person tends to believe that everyone has a conscience and that nobody
would dissimulate and lie like that "on purpose." It's amazing how far
agents can go in manipulating an activist because the activist will
constantly make excuses for the agent who regularly declares their
dedication to the cause. Even if they do, occasionally, suspect the agent,
they will pull the wool over their own eyes by rationalizing: "they did
that unconsciously... they didn't really mean it... I can help them by
being forgiving and accepting " and so on and so forth.

The agent will tell the activist:

"You're a leader!"

This is designed to enhance the activist's self-esteem. His or her
narcissistic admiration of his/her own activist/altruistic intentions
increase as he or she identifies with and consciously admires the
altruistic declarations of the agent which are deliberately set up to
mirror those of the activist.

This is "malignant pseudoidentification." It is the process by which the
agent consciously imitates or simulates a certain behavior to foster the
activist's identification with him/her, thus increasing the activist's
vulnerability to exploitation. The agent will simulate the more subtle
self-concepts of the activist.

Activists and those who have altruistic self-concepts are most vulnerable
to malignant pseudoidentification especially during work with the agent
when the interaction includes matter relating to their competency,
autonomy, or knowledge.

The goal of the agent is to increase the activist's general empathy for the
agent through pseudo-identification with the activist's self-concepts.

The most common example of this is the agent who will compliment the
activist for his competency or knowledge or value to the movement. On a
more subtle level, the agent will simulate affects and mannerisms of the
activist which promotes identification via mirroring and feelings of
"twinship". It is not unheard of for activists, enamored by the perceived
helpfulness and competence of a good agent, to find themselves considering
ethical violations and perhaps, even illegal behavior, in the service of
their agent/handler.

The activist's "felt quality of perfection" [self-concept] is enhanced, and
a strong empathic bond is developed with the agent through his/her
imitation and simulation of the victim's own narcissistic investments.
[self-concepts] That is, if the activist knows, deep inside, their own
dedication to the cause, they will project that onto the agent who is
"mirroring" them.

The activist will be deluded into thinking that the agent shares this
feeling of identification and bonding. In an activist/social movement
setting, the adversarial roles that activists naturally play vis a vis the
establishment/government, fosters ongoing processes of intrapsychic
splitting so that "twinship alliances" between activist and agent may
render whole sectors or reality testing unavailable to the activist. They
literally "lose touch with reality."

Activists who deny their own narcissistic investments [do not have a good
idea of their own self-concepts and that they ARE concepts] and consciously
perceive themselves (accurately, as it were) to be "helpers" endowed with a
special amount of altruism are exceedingly vulnerable to the affective
(emotional) simulation of the accomplished agent.

Empathy is fostered in the activist through the expression of quite visible
affects. The presentation of tearfulness, sadness, longing, fear, remorse,
and guilt, may induce in the helper-oriented activist a strong sense of
compassion, while unconsciously enhancing the activist's narcissistic
investment in self as the embodiment of goodness.

The agent's expresssion of such simulated affects may be quite compelling
to the observer and difficult to distinguish from deep emotion.

It can usually be identified by two events, however:

First, the activist who has analyzed his/her own narcissistic roots and is
aware of his/her own potential for being "emotionally hooked," will be able
to remain cool and unaffected by such emotional outpourings by the agent.

As a result of this unaffected, cool, attitude, the Second event will
occur: The agent will recompensate much too quickly following such an
affective expression leaving the activist with the impression that "the
play has ended, the curtain has fallen," and the imposture, for the moment,
has finished. The agent will then move quickly to another activist/victim.

The fact is, the movement doesn't need leaders, it needs MOVERS. "Follow
the leader" is a waste of time.

A good agent will want to meet as often as possible. He or she will talk a
lot and say little. One can expect an onslaught of long, unresolved
discussions.

Some agents take on a pushy, arrogant, or defensive manner:

1) To disrupt the agenda
2) To side-track the discussion
3) To interrupt repeatedly
4) To feign ignorance
5) To make an unfounded accusation against a person.

Calling someone a racist, for example. This tactic is used to discredit a
person in the eyes of all other group members.

Saboteurs

Some saboteurs pretend to be activists. She or he will ....

1) Write encyclopedic flyers (in the present day, websites)
2) Print flyers in English only.
3) Have demonstrations in places where no one cares.
4) Solicit funding from rich people instead of grass roots support
5) Display banners with too many words that are confusing.
6) Confuse issues.
7) Make the wrong demands.
Cool Compromise the goal.
9) Have endless discussions that waste everyone's time. The agent may
accompany the endless discussions with drinking, pot smoking or other
amusement to slow down the activist's work.

Provocateurs

1) Want to establish "leaders" to set them up for a fall in order to stop
the movement.
2) Suggest doing foolish, illegal things to get the activists in trouble.
3) Encourage militancy.
4) Want to taunt the authorities.
5) Attempt to make the activist compromise their values.
6) Attempt to instigate violence. Activisim ought to always be non-violent.
7) Attempt to provoke revolt among people who are ill-prepared to deal with
the reaction of the authorities to such violence.

Informants

1) Want everyone to sign up and sing in and sign everything.
2) Ask a lot of questions (gathering data).
3) Want to know what events the activist is planning to attend.
4) Attempt to make the activist defend him or herself to identify his or
her beliefs, goals, and level of committment.

Recruiting

Legitimate activists do not subject people to hours of persuasive dialog.
Their actions, beliefs, and goals speak for themselves.

Groups that DO recruit are missionaries, military, and fake political
parties or movements set up by agents.

Surveillance

ALWAYS assume that you are under surveillance.

At this point, if you are NOT under surveillance, you are not a very good
activist!

Scare Tactics

They use them.

Such tactics include slander, defamation, threats, getting close to
disaffected or minimally committed fellow activists to persuade them (via
psychological tactics described above) to turn against the movement and
give false testimony against their former compatriots. They will plant
illegal substances on the activist and set up an arrest; they will plant
false information and set up "exposure," they will send incriminating
letters [emails] in the name of the activist; and more; they will do
whatever society will allow.

This booklet in no way covers all the ways agents use to sabotage the lives
of sincere an dedicated activists.

If an agent is "exposed," he or she will be transferred or replaced.

COINTELPRO is still in operation today under a different code name. It is
no longer placed on paper where it can be discovered through the freedom of
information act.

The FBI counterintelligence program's stated purpose: To expose, disrupt,
misdirect, discredit, and otherwise neutralize individuals who the FBI
categorize as opposed to the National Interests. "National Security" means
the FBI's security from the people ever finding out the vicious things it
does in violation of people's civil liberties.

______________________________________________________________________________________

Seventeen Techniques for Truth Suppression

Strong, credible allegations of high-level criminal activity can bring down
a government. When the government lacks an effective, fact-based defense,
other techniques must be employed. The success of these techniques depends
heavily upon a cooperative, compliant press and a mere token opposition
party.

1. Dummy up. If it's not reported, if it's not news, it didn't happen.

2. Wax indignant. This is also known as the "How dare you?" gambit.

3. Characterize the charges as "rumors" or, better yet, "wild rumors." If,
in spite of the news blackout, the public is still able to learn about the
suspicious facts, it can only be through "rumors." (If they tend to believe
the "rumors" it must be because they are simply "paranoid" or "hysterical.")

4. Knock down straw men. Deal only with the weakest aspects of the weakest
charges. Even better, create your own straw men. Make up wild rumors (or
plant false stories) and give them lead play when you appear to debunk all
the charges, real and fanciful alike.

5. Call the skeptics names like "conspiracy theorist," "nutcase," "ranter,"
"kook," "crackpot," and, of course, "rumor monger." Be sure, too, to use
heavily loaded verbs and adjectives when characterizing their charges and
defending the "more reasonable" government and its defenders. You must then
carefully avoid fair and open debate with any of the people you have thus
maligned. For insurance, set up your own "skeptics" to shoot down.

6. Impugn motives. Attempt to marginalize the critics by suggesting
strongly that they are not really interested in the truth but are simply
pursuing a partisan political agenda or are out to make money (compared to
over-compensated adherents to the government line who, presumably, are not).

7. Invoke authority. Here the controlled press and the sham opposition can
be very useful.

8. Dismiss the charges as "old news."

9. Come half-clean. This is also known as "confession and avoidance" or
"taking the limited hangout route." This way, you create the impression of
candor and honesty while you admit only to relatively harmless,
less-than-criminal "mistakes." This stratagem often requires the embrace of
a fall-back position quite different from the one originally taken. With
effective damage control, the fall-back position need only be peddled by
stooge skeptics to carefully limited markets.

10. Characterize the crimes as impossibly complex and the truth as
ultimately unknowable.

11. Reason backward, using the deductive method with a vengeance. With
thoroughly rigorous deduction, troublesome evidence is irrelevant. E.g. We
have a completely free press. If evidence exists that the Vince Foster
"suicide" note was forged, they would have reported it. They haven't
reported it so there is no such evidence. Another variation on this theme
involves the likelihood of a conspiracy leaker and a press who would report
the leak.

12. Require the skeptics to solve the crime completely. E.g. If Foster was
murdered, who did it and why?

13. Change the subject. This technique includes creating and/or publicizing
distractions.

14. Lightly report incriminating facts, and then make nothing of them. This
is sometimes referred to as "bump and run" reporting.

15. Baldly and brazenly lie. A favorite way of doing this is to attribute
the "facts" furnished the public to a plausible-sounding, but anonymous,
source.

16. Expanding further on numbers 4 and 5, have your own stooges "expose"
scandals and champion popular causes. Their job is to pre-empt real
opponents and to play 99-yard football. A variation is to pay rich people
for the job who will pretend to spend their own money.

17. Flood the Internet with agents. This is the answer to the question,
"What could possibly motivate a person to spend hour upon hour on Internet
news groups defending the government and/or the press and harassing genuine
critics?" Don t the authorities have defenders enough in all the
newspapers, magazines, radio, and television? One would think refusing to
print critical letters and screening out serious callers or dumping them
from radio talk shows would be control enough, but, obviously, it is not.
clone

-- 
Twitter <https://twitter.com/tbiehn> | LinkedIn
<http://www.linkedin.com/in/travisbiehn> | GitHub <http://github.com/tbiehn>
| TravisBiehn.com <http://www.travisbiehn.com> | Google Plus
<https://plus.google.com/+TravisBiehn>
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From jya at pipeline.com  Thu Nov 12 11:31:01 2015
From: jya at pipeline.com (John Young)
Date: Thu, 12 Nov 2015 14:31:01 -0500
Subject: Appeals Court Stayed: Re: Judge enjoins NSA to not collect
 metadata on attorney or his law firm.
In-Reply-To: <1111039685.4260304.1447354072975.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo .com>
References: <E1Zwup3-0007T5-7b@elasmtp-mealy.atl.sa.earthlink.net>
 <1111039685.4260304.1447354072975.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <E1ZwxYS-0005Jk-Oq@elasmtp-curtail.atl.sa.earthlink.net>

Judge Leon's opinion was published on November 9 and the Appeals stay
the next day.

https://cryptome.org/2015/11/klayman-158-159.pdf

 From the Appeals stay:

"ORDERED that the district court's order issued November 9, 2015, be stayed
pending further order of the court."



At 01:47 PM 11/12/2015, you wrote:
>The document url you cited, an order by the District Judge, was 
>dated the same day as "An appeals court stayed the judge's order on 
>10 November 2015."
>That would be a quick stay!   Are we talking about the same stay?
>       Jim Bell
>
>
>From: John Young <jya at pipeline.com>
>To: cypherpunks at cpunks.org
>Sent: Thursday, November 12, 2015 8:35 AM
>Subject: Appeals Court Stayed: Re: Judge enjoins NSA to not collect 
>metadata on attorney or his law firm.
>
>An appeals court stayed the judge's order on 10 November 2015.
>DoJ filed 241 pages to win the stay:
>
><https://cryptome.org/2015/11/klayman-stay-15-1110.pdf>https://cryptome.org/2015/11/klayman-stay-15-1110.pdf 
>(8.1MB)
>
>
>
>
>
>At 11:21 AM 11/12/2015, you wrote:
>
> >Does anyone here actually believe the NSA gives a fuck what some pissant
> >federal judge says?
>
>
>
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From Rayzer at riseup.net  Thu Nov 12 14:37:18 2015
From: Rayzer at riseup.net (Razer)
Date: Thu, 12 Nov 2015 14:37:18 -0800
Subject: TV ad tracking-thru-secret-inaudible-noise program is named... wait
 for it... PRISM!
Message-ID: <5645149E.9070605@riseup.net>

...and you thought you were only being stalked in the intertubz...

SilverPush Prism and "Unique Audio Beacon"

http://www.silverpush.co/#!/prism
http://www.silverpush.co/#!/uab

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From jya at pipeline.com  Thu Nov 12 11:38:40 2015
From: jya at pipeline.com (John Young)
Date: Thu, 12 Nov 2015 14:38:40 -0500
Subject: Fwd: 2 WikiLeaks questions
In-Reply-To: <CAO7N=i1BkrNwyFxYzp+rsN21COmg1kBa9fdzusXVY9QE6Zu3MQ@mail.g
 mail.com>
References: <CAO7N=i2+E_uZRxVKA8o4qbSp14FERrRpBUHQVO7Y8ik0+JXy-g@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAO7N=i1BkrNwyFxYzp+rsN21COmg1kBa9fdzusXVY9QE6Zu3MQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <E1Zwxfn-0005Dx-UI@elasmtp-junco.atl.sa.earthlink.net>


>But obviously don't stick your penis into a white woman who's anti-Castro.

Wicked sequitur.





From guninski at guninski.com  Thu Nov 12 05:25:30 2015
From: guninski at guninski.com (Georgi Guninski)
Date: Thu, 12 Nov 2015 15:25:30 +0200
Subject: States Storing And Selling Your DNA At Birth Without Explicit
 Notice Consent (TBA: Hospitals Doctors Testlabs Too)
In-Reply-To: <CAD2Ti2-LSL4ovgzLKiy5YRuQCnp6outB2RQNq4W0oPN9ioUz9w@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAD2Ti2-LSL4ovgzLKiy5YRuQCnp6outB2RQNq4W0oPN9ioUz9w@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <20151112132530.GA2642@sivokote.iziade.m$>

On Wed, Nov 11, 2015 at 03:18:34AM -0500, grarpamp wrote:
> http://sanfrancisco.cbslocal.com/2015/11/09/dna-data-from-california-newborn-blood-samples-stored-sold-to-3rd-parties/
> http://slashdot.org/~DavidPoole
>
Besides blood, can (parts of) DNA be recovered from other stuff say hair, urine?




From admin at pilobilus.net  Thu Nov 12 13:32:51 2015
From: admin at pilobilus.net (Steve Kinney)
Date: Thu, 12 Nov 2015 16:32:51 -0500
Subject: Cpunk Propaganda To Reach The Sheeple [New functionality of
 Facebook]
In-Reply-To: <CAD2Ti2_hHPa09TO8tjfwYcBXZLu-q4ScpoLghwoccL03-Fdh6g@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAD2Ti2_hHPa09TO8tjfwYcBXZLu-q4ScpoLghwoccL03-Fdh6g@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <56450583.8000306@pilobilus.net>

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1

On 11/12/2015 01:25 PM, grarpamp wrote:
> On Thu, Nov 12, 2015 at 9:23 AM, Steve Kinney
> <admin at pilobilus.net> wrote:
>> There's a lot to dislike about The Facebook, but I do my best
>> to assure that my participation causes more harm to the
>> opposition team than to my own interests.  They do get a
>> constantly updated map of a big chunk of my real-world social
>> network, and that kind of collection used to cost money and
>> deplete finite resources dammit.  But then, so did reaching a
>> receptive audience with anarchist propaganda and commentary,
>> so, I figure it for a break-even proposition.
> 
> Everyone bitches about having a hard time reaching the
> sheeple, from their tech lab in the basement that is. So
> similar above, to reach them you have to go to them, to their
> boring online "forums" and facebooks, the ones about football,
> beer, trucks, sewing, baby raising, cooking, etc... just start
> posting links to news stories you want them to see... all
> automated from the comfort of your basement.

Promoting news, propaganda, links to offsite documents and
archives "of interest," etc. is easy, fun, and necessary.  But one
should not neglect the shoe leather aspects of the game.  I have
been involved with "political activism" off and on since the
1970s, and I never saw anything like the revival of Anarchy
following Occupy.

In my view Occupy was a tremendous success, because the camps
became venues for intensive political education and practical
training that changed the nature of radical politics and populist
actions in the U.S.  We still have many miles left to go, but at
least something's finally on the move again.

The anarchist veterans of Occupy seem to be the glue that holds a
lot of today's ad hoc activist coalitions together, because Occupy
taught its participants how to run consensus driven groups, and
gave them practical experience in organizing and executing public
events in a spectrum from "family friendly" to rude and
confrontational.

The Obama abomination stirred up a lot of middle class Liberals;
their demographic is now well represented in public events that
have little or nothing to do with partisan politics. The Bernie
business is likely to bring a large wave of mad as hell, not gonna
take it any more adults out of the woodwork. From every hundred or
so who show up for a well organized public event sponsored by
radicals, three or four are likely to stick and help run the next on
e.

"Anarchy finds work for idle hands."  Everybody has their own jobs
to do, determined by their interests, abilities and motivations. A
keyboard and mouse may be enough for some folks, and those who do
it well contribute a lot of value.  But the ones who get up on
their feet and down to the street will be the ones who actually
change something.  How can a local community voluntarily blow up
the bridge over the swamp and raise their own flag, without a
process for consensus and people who know how to beat some
practical results out of the resulting clusterfuck?

"Training tomorrow's trainers and challenging tomorrow's leaders"
is widely recognized as Serious Business:  Anyone who can find a
functional radical crew, jump on board and stars contributing real
work will be brought along pretty quickly.

:o)





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From juan.g71 at gmail.com  Thu Nov 12 12:15:53 2015
From: juan.g71 at gmail.com (Juan)
Date: Thu, 12 Nov 2015 17:15:53 -0300
Subject: 2 WikiLeaks questions
In-Reply-To: <CAO7N=i1BkrNwyFxYzp+rsN21COmg1kBa9fdzusXVY9QE6Zu3MQ@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAO7N=i2+E_uZRxVKA8o4qbSp14FERrRpBUHQVO7Y8ik0+JXy-g@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAO7N=i1BkrNwyFxYzp+rsN21COmg1kBa9fdzusXVY9QE6Zu3MQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <5644f1d0.45dd8c0a.79d85.ffff9d16@mx.google.com>

On Thu, 12 Nov 2015 11:21:46 -0800
Ryan Carboni <ryacko at gmail.com> wrote:


> 
> Woah, woah, woah. Back up. The Palestinians started this whole mess by
> trying to kick the Jews out in the 1947 civil war, 

	Forum spies seem easy to spot by their political commnetary ^^^^


	re: your war propaganda 

	https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c4ZfnpN4Dfc


 
> Furthermore, wikileaks made it too obvious that they were pawns of
> Russian intelligence, 

	Ah, it's an evil conspiracy against the jew-christian liberal
	democracies. The free world under siege!



> 
> It's too bad the US intelligence community insults their own employees
> intelligence.

	Snif, snif.  US spies, poor little innocent victims are being
	insulted...by themselves? 



> Ultimately, if wikileaks wanted to enact positive change, as opposed
> to behaving like narcissistic morons,
	
	...they should be working for the pentagon like the tor cunts?



> Wikileaks got what it deserved.

	sure.







From jdb10987 at yahoo.com  Thu Nov 12 10:47:52 2015
From: jdb10987 at yahoo.com (jim bell)
Date: Thu, 12 Nov 2015 18:47:52 +0000 (UTC)
Subject: Appeals Court Stayed: Re: Judge enjoins NSA to not collect
 metadata on attorney or his law firm.
In-Reply-To: <E1Zwup3-0007T5-7b@elasmtp-mealy.atl.sa.earthlink.net>
References: <E1Zwup3-0007T5-7b@elasmtp-mealy.atl.sa.earthlink.net>
Message-ID: <1111039685.4260304.1447354072975.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com>

The document url you cited, an order by the District Judge, was dated the same day as "An appeals court stayed the judge's order on 10 November 2015."That would be a quick stay!   Are we talking about the same stay?      Jim Bell
      From: John Young <jya at pipeline.com>
 To: cypherpunks at cpunks.org 
 Sent: Thursday, November 12, 2015 8:35 AM
 Subject: Appeals Court Stayed: Re: Judge enjoins NSA to not collect metadata on attorney or his law firm.
   
An appeals court stayed the judge's order on 10 November 2015.
DoJ filed 241 pages to win the stay:

https://cryptome.org/2015/11/klayman-stay-15-1110.pdf (8.1MB)





At 11:21 AM 11/12/2015, you wrote:

>Does anyone here actually believe the NSA gives a fuck what some pissant
>federal judge says?




  
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From s at ctrlc.hu  Thu Nov 12 10:09:51 2015
From: s at ctrlc.hu (stef)
Date: Thu, 12 Nov 2015 19:09:51 +0100
Subject: The Gentleman's Guide To Forum Spies (spooks, feds, etc.)
Message-ID: <20151112180951.GC7122@ctrlc.hu>

for those who have not seen this and those who are unaware of the things going
on here:
http://pastebin.com/irj4Fyd5

-- 
otr fp: https://www.ctrlc.hu/~stef/otr.txt




From juan.g71 at gmail.com  Thu Nov 12 14:30:03 2015
From: juan.g71 at gmail.com (juan)
Date: Thu, 12 Nov 2015 19:30:03 -0300
Subject: Cpunk Propaganda To Reach The Sheeple [New functionality of
 Facebook]
In-Reply-To: <56450583.8000306@pilobilus.net>
References: <CAD2Ti2_hHPa09TO8tjfwYcBXZLu-q4ScpoLghwoccL03-Fdh6g@mail.gmail.com>
 <56450583.8000306@pilobilus.net>
Message-ID: <56451148.964e370a.a772a.ffffbc90@mx.google.com>

On Thu, 12 Nov 2015 16:32:51 -0500
Steve Kinney <admin at pilobilus.net> wrote:


> The Obama abomination stirred up a lot of middle class Liberals;


	What could that possibly mean? 'Stirred'? Obama is the 
	quintessential hero of the middle class american
	'liberal' (aka left wing, 'politicall correct' fascist)



> their demographic is now well represented in public events that
> have little or nothing to do with partisan politics. The Bernie
> business is likely to bring a large wave of mad as hell, 


	sanders? an american 'socialists' senator*? what is he supposed
	to stand for?

	
	You seem to be wearing your rose colored glasses...




> not gonna
> take it any more adults out of the woodwork. From every hundred or
> so who show up for a well organized public event sponsored by
> radicals, three or four are likely to stick and help run the next on
> e.
> 
> "Anarchy finds work for idle hands."  Everybody has their own jobs
> to do, determined by their interests, abilities and motivations. A
> keyboard and mouse may be enough for some folks, and those who do
> it well contribute a lot of value.  But the ones who get up on
> their feet and down to the street will be the ones who actually
> change something.  How can a local community voluntarily blow up
> the bridge over the swamp and raise their own flag, without a
> process for consensus and people who know how to beat some
> practical results out of the resulting clusterfuck?
> 
> "Training tomorrow's trainers and challenging tomorrow's leaders"
> is widely recognized as Serious Business:  Anyone who can find a
> functional radical crew, jump on board and stars contributing real
> work will be brought along pretty quickly.
> 
> :o)
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
> Version: GnuPG v1
> 
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> zu2aAAwidONJDscN0rE7
> =uepi
> -----END PGP SIGNATURE-----




From oshwm at openmailbox.org  Thu Nov 12 11:33:56 2015
From: oshwm at openmailbox.org (oshwm)
Date: Thu, 12 Nov 2015 19:33:56 +0000
Subject: The Gentleman's Guide To Forum Spies (spooks, feds, etc.)
In-Reply-To: <20151112190039.GE7122@ctrlc.hu>
References: <20151112180951.GC7122@ctrlc.hu>
 <CAD2Ti2_tuM9b8wOsdVBXqkpc-eKxFETvyLxOQgM6HazkUWYE3g@mail.gmail.com>
 <20151112190039.GE7122@ctrlc.hu>
Message-ID: <5644E9A4.3030201@openmailbox.org>

You only get to see Censor Kitty once you've got through Cloudflare :)

On 12/11/15 19:00, stef wrote:
> On Thu, Nov 12, 2015 at 01:45:33PM -0500, grarpamp wrote:
>> "
>> Censor Kitty denies access
>> Pastebin.com has blocked your IP :(
>> We have blocked your IP from accessing our website because we have
>> detected unnatural browsing behavior. Depending on the violation, the
>> block could be temporary, but also permanent.
>> "
>>
>> You're getting fucked, by a deep matrix of fuck, that's what's going on, bruh.
> 
> goddamn pastebin blocks tor exitnodes. pastebin ops hate freedom :/
> 

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From s at ctrlc.hu  Thu Nov 12 11:00:39 2015
From: s at ctrlc.hu (stef)
Date: Thu, 12 Nov 2015 20:00:39 +0100
Subject: The Gentleman's Guide To Forum Spies (spooks, feds, etc.)
In-Reply-To: <CAD2Ti2_tuM9b8wOsdVBXqkpc-eKxFETvyLxOQgM6HazkUWYE3g@mail.gmail.com>
References: <20151112180951.GC7122@ctrlc.hu>
 <CAD2Ti2_tuM9b8wOsdVBXqkpc-eKxFETvyLxOQgM6HazkUWYE3g@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <20151112190039.GE7122@ctrlc.hu>

On Thu, Nov 12, 2015 at 01:45:33PM -0500, grarpamp wrote:
> "
> Censor Kitty denies access
> Pastebin.com has blocked your IP :(
> We have blocked your IP from accessing our website because we have
> detected unnatural browsing behavior. Depending on the violation, the
> block could be temporary, but also permanent.
> "
> 
> You're getting fucked, by a deep matrix of fuck, that's what's going on, bruh.

goddamn pastebin blocks tor exitnodes. pastebin ops hate freedom :/

-- 
otr fp: https://www.ctrlc.hu/~stef/otr.txt




From dan at geer.org  Thu Nov 12 17:01:10 2015
From: dan at geer.org (dan at geer.org)
Date: Thu, 12 Nov 2015 20:01:10 -0500
Subject: UK To Ban Crypto In Devices, Email And More
In-Reply-To: Your message of "Sat, 07 Nov 2015 11:13:30 +1100."
 <CADrYLAiDiS1hLyfwARG7dtzVd4OLmN4R5-07fTTQpvZ54gMmWQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <20151113010110.BDF06A06D91@palinka.tinho.net>

In my consideration of it, the right to bear arms is the right to
self determination.  Nevertheless, as a sovereign nation, Australia
may do as it pleases to Australians, but talking firearms here on
this list is almost surely a rathole unless one wants to argue that
cyber weapons are a parallel vector; perhaps this selection in
forward time order will illustrate:

A free people ought not only to be armed but disciplined; to which end
a uniform and well digested plan is requisite: And their safety and
interest require that they should promote such manufactories, as tend to
render them independent on others, for essential, particularly for
military supplies.
        -- George Washington, 8 January 1790

I wish it to be remembered that I was the last man of my tribe to
surrender my rifle.
        -- Sitting Bull, 19 July 1881

Political power grows out of the barrel of a gun.
        -- Mao Zedong, August 1927

If the opposition disarms, all is well and good. If it refuses to
disarm, we shall disarm it ourselves.
        -- Joseph Stalin, 7 December 1927

Among the many misdeeds of British rule in India, history will look
upon the Act depriving a whole nation of arms as the blackest.
        -- Mohandas K. Gandhi, An Autobiography, pg 446, 1928

That rifle on the wall of the laborer's cottage or working class
flat is the symbol of democracy.  It is our job to see that it stays
there.
        -- George Orwell, in the English democratic socialist weekly
        "Tribune," 1940


Even if, for you, the right to bear arms is not the right to self
determination, what has changed is that the kinetic weapons of the
civilian are no longer even remotely capable of challenging the
kinetic weapons of the powers that be, so it is quite remarkable
and, some might say, fortuitous that cyber weapons have brought us
back to a balance of power some two hundred years old.  What we
might want, therefore, is to discuss whether we can prevent the
overwhelming mismatch in kinetic weapons (between citizen and the
powers that be) that now obtains from being recapitulated in cyber
weapons.  I, for one, favor arms control of big shit, not little,
which puts me at odds with all sovereigns and, quite possibly, the
arc of history.

--dan




From admin at pilobilus.net  Thu Nov 12 19:07:29 2015
From: admin at pilobilus.net (Steve Kinney)
Date: Thu, 12 Nov 2015 22:07:29 -0500
Subject: Cpunk Propaganda To Reach The Sheeple [New functionality of
 Facebook]
In-Reply-To: <56451148.964e370a.a772a.ffffbc90@mx.google.com>
References: <CAD2Ti2_hHPa09TO8tjfwYcBXZLu-q4ScpoLghwoccL03-Fdh6g@mail.gmail.com>
 <56450583.8000306@pilobilus.net>
 <56451148.964e370a.a772a.ffffbc90@mx.google.com>
Message-ID: <564553F1.6000904@pilobilus.net>

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1



On 11/12/2015 05:30 PM, juan wrote:
> On Thu, 12 Nov 2015 16:32:51 -0500 Steve Kinney 
> <admin at pilobilus.net> wrote:
> 
>> The Obama abomination stirred up a lot of middle class 
>> Liberals;
> 
> 
> What could that possibly mean? 'Stirred'? Obama is the 
> quintessential hero of the middle class american 'liberal'
> (aka left wing, 'politicall correct' fascist)

"Liberals," so-called, are not cardboard cutouts; they are human
beings.  Two value reasoning, the passionate belief that the
Left/Right axis describes real world politics, and judging others
accordingly makes one a helpless cripple in the political sphere.
 That's why Amerikans have been so carefully and thoroughly taught
to see and respond to the world around them through that frame of
reference.

>> their demographic is now well represented in public events 
>> that have little or nothing to do with partisan politics.
>> The Bernie business is likely to bring a large wave of mad
>> as hell,
> 
> sanders? an american 'socialists' senator*? what is he supposed
> to stand for?

Political attitude surveys consistently show a popular mandate for
what most would call Socialist economic policies and institutions
in the U.S.  Of course, in a Fascist State ruled by an
astronomically wealthy oligarchy, no such thing is allowed.  Hence
the novelty and extraordinary popular appeal of Bernie Sanders.  I
expect his failure to deliver will radicalize a rather large
number of people who would presently be described as Liberal.  I
know from observation that the Obama deception had that effect.

> You seem to be wearing your rose colored glasses...

Just a cognitive bias toward well documented evidence and lessons
of personal experience, and a lifetime of studying the art and
science of propaganda.

I got hooked on propaganda when I was 11 or 12 and never lost
interest.  Propaganda is the principal formative influence on
social norms and political beliefs in the media-saturated
"developed" nations.  No one escapes the influence of propaganda,
but those who do not study propaganda will be controlled by it.

:o)




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From grarpamp at gmail.com  Thu Nov 12 19:14:51 2015
From: grarpamp at gmail.com (grarpamp)
Date: Thu, 12 Nov 2015 22:14:51 -0500
Subject: Call William Binney's Friend...
Message-ID: <CAD2Ti2-Dh7pvqBp4P=Zzg8MsFBoK=XOs33GTKgM_UuBqWgJULA@mail.gmail.com>

http://hop3.de/text_en.html

Telephone: +49 174 276 6483
This mobile phone was used to call the personal number of William
Binney, a former technical director of the U.S. National Security
Agency who quit in protest in 2001 and later became one of the first
whistleblowers on illegal NSA programmes. He must be considered to be
what the intelligence agencies call “cast iron” – an internal term to
identify targets that are so important that every bit of data
personally connected to them has to be recorded and saved forever. ...
By calling this phone from your own device...
Do you really want to live a life where you shy away from completely
normal, legal things, like calling a mobile phone?

https://cpunks.org/pipermail/cypherpunks/2015-September/009104.html
Telephone: +9647705648252




From zen at freedbms.net  Thu Nov 12 15:15:06 2015
From: zen at freedbms.net (Zenaan Harkness)
Date: Thu, 12 Nov 2015 23:15:06 +0000
Subject: 2 WikiLeaks questions
In-Reply-To: <5644f1d0.45dd8c0a.79d85.ffff9d16@mx.google.com>
References: <CAO7N=i2+E_uZRxVKA8o4qbSp14FERrRpBUHQVO7Y8ik0+JXy-g@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAO7N=i1BkrNwyFxYzp+rsN21COmg1kBa9fdzusXVY9QE6Zu3MQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <5644f1d0.45dd8c0a.79d85.ffff9d16@mx.google.com>
Message-ID: <CAOsGNSR2vkoidZ1Wgb2GrSHOWpt0WGcCE39wYWsKSbV5NC2f-g@mail.gmail.com>

On 11/12/15, Juan <juan.g71 at gmail.com> wrote:
> On Thu, 12 Nov 2015 11:21:46 -0800
> Ryan Carboni <ryacko at gmail.com> wrote:
>> Woah, woah, woah. Back up. The Palestinians started this whole mess by
>> trying to kick the Jews out in the 1947 civil war,
>
> 	Forum spies seem easy to spot by their political commnetary ^^^^
>
> 	re: your war propaganda
> 	https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c4ZfnpN4Dfc

(For those who like to know, it's only 273MiB.)

Damn! That's an excellent summary. Thank you very much for this post, Juan.
Z




From zen at freedbms.net  Thu Nov 12 15:21:24 2015
From: zen at freedbms.net (Zenaan Harkness)
Date: Thu, 12 Nov 2015 23:21:24 +0000
Subject: The Gentleman's Guide To Forum Spies (spooks, feds, etc.)
In-Reply-To: <5644E9A4.3030201@openmailbox.org>
References: <20151112180951.GC7122@ctrlc.hu>
 <CAD2Ti2_tuM9b8wOsdVBXqkpc-eKxFETvyLxOQgM6HazkUWYE3g@mail.gmail.com>
 <20151112190039.GE7122@ctrlc.hu> <5644E9A4.3030201@openmailbox.org>
Message-ID: <CAOsGNSTPZrzUGpZYPsRFvuk2-wqcQdg81-8hNJSQhfFqC1swtA@mail.gmail.com>

<the future telling power of Shrek>

It's like, layers.

Listen here, onion boy!

Not -that- kind of onion.


On 11/12/15, oshwm <oshwm at openmailbox.org> wrote:
> You only get to see Censor Kitty once you've got through Cloudflare :)
>
> On 12/11/15 19:00, stef wrote:
>> On Thu, Nov 12, 2015 at 01:45:33PM -0500, grarpamp wrote:
>>> "
>>> Censor Kitty denies access
>>> Pastebin.com has blocked your IP :(
>>> We have blocked your IP from accessing our website because we have
>>> detected unnatural browsing behavior. Depending on the violation, the
>>> block could be temporary, but also permanent.
>>> "
>>>
>>> You're getting fucked, by a deep matrix of fuck, that's what's going on,
>>> bruh.
>>
>> goddamn pastebin blocks tor exitnodes. pastebin ops hate freedom :/




From dan at geer.org  Thu Nov 12 21:25:37 2015
From: dan at geer.org (dan at geer.org)
Date: Fri, 13 Nov 2015 00:25:37 -0500
Subject: UK To Ban Crypto In Devices, Email And More
In-Reply-To: Your message of "Tue, 10 Nov 2015 14:16:08 -0500."
 <CAD2Ti2-tcwFvCUvpLQX=tOQssw_uqmQQ=_yd7w0YOz3DWuuMQg@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <20151113052537.EF74CA06DA0@palinka.tinho.net>

 > Just fire all current officeholders and rewrite constitutions
 > to select term limited replacements at random from the entire
 > population.

I am obliged to confess I should sooner live in a society governed
by the first two thousand names in the Boston telephone directory
than in a society governed by the two thousand faculty members of
Harvard University.
   -- William F. Buckley, 1965




From grarpamp at gmail.com  Thu Nov 12 21:45:34 2015
From: grarpamp at gmail.com (grarpamp)
Date: Fri, 13 Nov 2015 00:45:34 -0500
Subject: UK To Ban Crypto In Devices, Email And More
In-Reply-To: <20151113010110.BDF06A06D91@palinka.tinho.net>
References: <CADrYLAiDiS1hLyfwARG7dtzVd4OLmN4R5-07fTTQpvZ54gMmWQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <20151113010110.BDF06A06D91@palinka.tinho.net>
Message-ID: <CAD2Ti2-c_tCbknG96EUF_A525o9UR8Mtk9tv32oKLL2jqH1p4g@mail.gmail.com>

On Thu, Nov 12, 2015 at 8:01 PM,  <dan at geer.org> wrote:
> I wish it to be remembered that I was the last man of my tribe to
> surrender my rifle.
>         -- Sitting Bull, 19 July 1881

This quote does not mean what you think it means..




From juan.g71 at gmail.com  Thu Nov 12 20:48:24 2015
From: juan.g71 at gmail.com (juan)
Date: Fri, 13 Nov 2015 01:48:24 -0300
Subject: Cpunk Propaganda To Reach The Sheeple [New functionality of
 Facebook]
In-Reply-To: <564553F1.6000904@pilobilus.net>
References: <CAD2Ti2_hHPa09TO8tjfwYcBXZLu-q4ScpoLghwoccL03-Fdh6g@mail.gmail.com>
 <56450583.8000306@pilobilus.net>
 <56451148.964e370a.a772a.ffffbc90@mx.google.com>
 <564553F1.6000904@pilobilus.net>
Message-ID: <564569fc.52178c0a.f459f.ffffd159@mx.google.com>

On Thu, 12 Nov 2015 22:07:29 -0500
Steve Kinney <admin at pilobilus.net> wrote:


> "Liberals," so-called, are not cardboard cutouts; they are human
> beings.  Two value reasoning, the passionate belief that the
> Left/Right axis describes real world politics, and judging others
> accordingly makes one a helpless cripple in the political sphere.
>  That's why Amerikans have been so carefully and thoroughly taught
> to see and respond to the world around them through that frame of
> reference.


	I know the left/right classification can be pretty meaningless
	and most of the time it is. On the other hand  mainstream
	liberals and mainstream conservatives, which are supposed to be
	left and right are hopeless I'm afraid (I do realize that some
	of them can become more politically sophisticated given
	the 'right' incentives)


> 
> >> their demographic is now well represented in public events 
> >> that have little or nothing to do with partisan politics.
> >> The Bernie business is likely to bring a large wave of mad
> >> as hell,
> > 
> > sanders? an american 'socialists' senator*? what is he supposed
> > to stand for?
> 
> Political attitude surveys consistently show a popular mandate for
> what most would call Socialist economic policies and institutions
> in the U.S.  Of course, in a Fascist State ruled by an
> astronomically wealthy oligarchy, no such thing is allowed.  Hence
> the novelty and extraordinary popular appeal of Bernie Sanders.  I
> expect his failure to deliver will radicalize a rather large
> number of people who would presently be described as Liberal.  I
> know from observation that the Obama deception had that effect.


	Ah, my mistake. I didn't get your point at first.

	I mostly remain skeptical though. I mean, the only thing you
	can be sure about politicians is that they won't keep their
	'promises'. And yet the democratic charade doesn't seem to be
	losing strength.


> 
> > You seem to be wearing your rose colored glasses...
> 
> Just a cognitive bias toward well documented evidence and lessons
> of personal experience, and a lifetime of studying the art and
> science of propaganda.
> 
> I got hooked on propaganda when I was 11 or 12 and never lost
> interest.  Propaganda is the principal formative influence on
> social norms and political beliefs in the media-saturated
> "developed" nations.  No one escapes the influence of propaganda,
> but those who do not study propaganda will be controlled by it.

	Hehe =)


> 
> :o)
> 
> 
> 
> 
> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
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> rQvR8QPsbSS8DJeSv93a
> =K2d8
> -----END PGP SIGNATURE-----




From grarpamp at gmail.com  Fri Nov 13 00:23:50 2015
From: grarpamp at gmail.com (grarpamp)
Date: Fri, 13 Nov 2015 03:23:50 -0500
Subject: [tor-talk] Bear Bonds - a new cryptocurrency that uses Tor
In-Reply-To: <20151112205250.Horde.Bi5OF25cfmta1AzSq2n5o_L@pam.asoshared.com>
References: <20151112205250.Horde.Bi5OF25cfmta1AzSq2n5o_L@pam.asoshared.com>
Message-ID: <CAD2Ti2_i96DABiyXxCbLKu5dLWUxy1zNZhv7RNwNWe5Qv858YA@mail.gmail.com>

On Thu, Nov 12, 2015 at 8:52 PM,  <allen at bearbonds.org> wrote:
> I'm involved in a project to create a new cryptocurrency called Bear
> Bonds(TM).
>
> One of the notable features for the Tor community is that all communication
> is via Tor using Tor hidden services.  This includes communication between
> users and the network, and all communication between network nodes.  Tor is
> used for both privacy and security.  In particular, since the users are
> anonymized, it prevents a node on the network from attempting to send
> targeting information to a certain user or group of users.
>
> If Bear Bonds is successful, we of course plan to give extensive support
> back to the Tor community.
>
> We have a whitepaper, technical documentation and a technology preview
> software release on our website at https://www.bearbonds.org.  The code is
> over 80% complete and we are working to finish it as quickly as possible.
>
> Please feel free read the documentation and try out the wallet simulation
> script.  We welcome any comments and questions.
>
> Thank you,
>
> Allen
> http://www.metzdowd.com/pipermail/cryptography/2015-November/027092.html

An admittedly very brief reading, site verbage, including trademark,
patent and copyright claims leaves question as to commitment to
fully decentralized p2p model and opensource. If true, you might find
quite limited interest here and more interest by banks, govts, and
commercial. If untrue and misread, please address.

And details on "directory servers", "witnesses", "trusted party
transaction servers".

What is your .onion?
What networks besides Tor do you have as pluggable
(or even multihome) options for when Tor is or becomes
incapacitated or unreachable or users simply prefer other?




From Rayzer at riseup.net  Fri Nov 13 10:09:21 2015
From: Rayzer at riseup.net (Razer)
Date: Fri, 13 Nov 2015 10:09:21 -0800
Subject: UK To Ban Crypto In Devices, Email And More
In-Reply-To: <CAD2Ti2-c_tCbknG96EUF_A525o9UR8Mtk9tv32oKLL2jqH1p4g@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CADrYLAiDiS1hLyfwARG7dtzVd4OLmN4R5-07fTTQpvZ54gMmWQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <20151113010110.BDF06A06D91@palinka.tinho.net>
 <CAD2Ti2-c_tCbknG96EUF_A525o9UR8Mtk9tv32oKLL2jqH1p4g@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <56462751.60903@riseup.net>



On 11/12/2015 09:45 PM, grarpamp wrote:
> On Thu, Nov 12, 2015 at 8:01 PM,  <dan at geer.org> wrote:
>> I wish it to be remembered that I was the last man of my tribe to
>> surrender my rifle.
>>         -- Sitting Bull, 19 July 1881
> This quote does not mean what you think it means..
>

Maybe yes... Maybe no.

But Chief Joseph meant EXACTLY what he said:

"General Miles said to me in plain words, "If you will come out and
give up your arms, I will spare your lives and send you back to the
reservation." General Miles had promised we might return to our country
with what stock we had left. ... I believed General Miles, or I never
would have surrendered." --Chief Joseph, Nez Perce"

From "An Indian's View of Indian Affairs." North American Review, vol.
CXXVIII, 1879.

RR



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From zen at freedbms.net  Fri Nov 13 04:44:56 2015
From: zen at freedbms.net (Zenaan Harkness)
Date: Fri, 13 Nov 2015 12:44:56 +0000
Subject: RT assets to be seized due to preaching First Amendment rights
Message-ID: <CAOsGNSRCOrADbOdpfq+-mAGGL1ZdJokhLDh76cvJUTM9mw36jA@mail.gmail.com>

WARNING: Do -not- watch RT (Russia Today), they do not tow the US party line!

Well asset seizure is not quite ready to happen but that's what
Senator John McCain’s Institute for International Leadership is
calling for :)

http://russia-insider.com/en/russia-and-putin-are-winning-public-relations-war/ri11129

Of course lecturing America on how it should be upholding First
Amendment rights is a pretty ironic way to "win the propaganda war" in
America, which this article doesn't hold back in pointing out.

Now if only cypherpunks could be so vilified by the MSM for promoting
our inalienable right to private encrypted communications...




From guninski at guninski.com  Fri Nov 13 07:21:45 2015
From: guninski at guninski.com (Georgi Guninski)
Date: Fri, 13 Nov 2015 17:21:45 +0200
Subject: The Gentleman's Guide To Forum Spies (spooks, feds, etc.)
In-Reply-To: <CAKtE3zdApWSbZhCWr0Mf-GfuhP=R93i+B1274vxymVZdNziN9w@mail.gmail.com>
References: <20151112180951.GC7122@ctrlc.hu>
 <CAD2Ti2_tuM9b8wOsdVBXqkpc-eKxFETvyLxOQgM6HazkUWYE3g@mail.gmail.com>
 <20151112190039.GE7122@ctrlc.hu>
 <CAKtE3zdApWSbZhCWr0Mf-GfuhP=R93i+B1274vxymVZdNziN9w@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <20151113152145.GA2707@sivokote.iziade.m$>

On Thu, Nov 12, 2015 at 02:09:30PM -0500, Travis Biehn wrote:
> *publishes list on how to spot forum spies*
> *forum spies suddenly disappear*
> 
> Did they give up? Or simply switch tactics?
> 

Just for cross-reference this is http://pastebin.com/irj4Fyd5


natsecgirl is encouraged to find at least two spelling mistakes in the
text and then report them to her superiors.


> -Travis
> 
> Pasted for tinfoil:
> 
> 1. COINTELPRO Techniques for dilution, misdirection and control of a
> internet forum
> 2. Twenty-Five Rules of Disinformation
> 3. Eight Traits of the Disinformationalist
> 4. How to Spot a Spy (Cointelpro Agent)
> 5. Seventeen Techniques for Truth Suppression




From dan at geer.org  Fri Nov 13 19:25:04 2015
From: dan at geer.org (dan at geer.org)
Date: Fri, 13 Nov 2015 22:25:04 -0500
Subject: Google's TensorFlow AI Engine... More Power Tools [For Power?]
In-Reply-To: Your message of "Tue, 10 Nov 2015 13:11:55 -0800."
 <56425D9B.1070107@riseup.net>
Message-ID: <20151114032504.CD07EA0701C@palinka.tinho.net>

 | The tensorflow site... Cloudflare-stalked. The tutorials page has so
 | much javscript on it NoScript shows a blank page if you go there. They
 | want to know who wants to know...

I refuse Javascript; the WWW is shrinking given that refusal.
It seems that as HTML5 deploys, the shrinkage rate accelerate2.
It was fun while it lasted.

--dan




From zen at freedbms.net  Fri Nov 13 17:18:28 2015
From: zen at freedbms.net (Zenaan Harkness)
Date: Sat, 14 Nov 2015 01:18:28 +0000
Subject: Free speech advocates vs Crybullys
Message-ID: <CAOsGNSRu9cPHns0iLNwBz+umoTy8Y_EbEbdpC=Th0Wgdr95zaw@mail.gmail.com>

Thankfully, there seems to be some contention, discord and potential
police involvement, various resignations have already occurred, so
such turmoil, around allegations of free speech and violations of free
speech, portends well in my book. Bring it on! Great to see fights
around the right to, and limits of, freedom of speech.

Free speech advocates may be required "to go through the Disciplinary
Process if a formal complaint is filed, and that they will be required
to attend extensive training for racial and cultural competency" :
"Amherst Crybullies Demand Punishment for Student Who Put Up Free Speech Poster"
http://www.frontpagemag.com/point/260779/amherst-crybullies-demand-punishment-student-who-daniel-greenfield




From zen at freedbms.net  Fri Nov 13 17:30:23 2015
From: zen at freedbms.net (Zenaan Harkness)
Date: Sat, 14 Nov 2015 01:30:23 +0000
Subject: Black woman who grew up under segregation and in absolute poverty,
 must receive diversity training
Message-ID: <CAOsGNSRjjgYB2VLu6meJBNHm8yKbh4a9YHZ=pE5-4QxeVxoUyQ@mail.gmail.com>

It just get's better:
http://www.frontpagemag.com/fpm/260759/angry-white-leftists-target-black-conservative-daniel-greenfield

Bring it on! SJWs, eat your heart out! Evidently human rights, and
"social justice", are not quite the same thing...




From juan.g71 at gmail.com  Fri Nov 13 23:35:50 2015
From: juan.g71 at gmail.com (juan)
Date: Sat, 14 Nov 2015 04:35:50 -0300
Subject: Google's TensorFlow AI Engine... More Power Tools [For Power?]
In-Reply-To: <32713821-D718-487C-AF74-64F00DBEEABE@openmailbox.org>
References: <20151114032504.CD07EA0701C@palinka.tinho.net>
 <32713821-D718-487C-AF74-64F00DBEEABE@openmailbox.org>
Message-ID: <5646e2b2.5d19370a.12ae8.632b@mx.google.com>

On Sat, 14 Nov 2015 07:04:15 +0000
oshwm <oshwm at openmailbox.org> wrote:

> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
> Hash: SHA512
> 
> The other day I had to use a real bricks and mortar high street store
> to buy printer ink because the online shops I was going to use all
> blocked Tor exit nodes :(


	Good. The tor scam may be reaching its shell life. 




> 
> Even my bank blocks 50%+ of the time depending on which exit node I'm
> coning from.
> 
> Web ain't what it used to be :(
> 
> 
> On 14 November 2015 03:25:04 GMT+00:00, dan at geer.org wrote:
> > | The tensorflow site... Cloudflare-stalked. The tutorials page has
> > so
> >| much javscript on it NoScript shows a blank page if you go there.
> >They
> > | want to know who wants to know...
> >
> >I refuse Javascript; the WWW is shrinking given that refusal.
> >It seems that as HTML5 deploys, the shrinkage rate accelerate2.
> >It was fun while it lasted.
> >
> >--dan
> 
> - --
> Sent from my Android device with K-9 Mail. Please excuse my brevity.
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> -----END PGP SIGNATURE-----
> 




From juan.g71 at gmail.com  Fri Nov 13 23:38:17 2015
From: juan.g71 at gmail.com (juan)
Date: Sat, 14 Nov 2015 04:38:17 -0300
Subject: Google's TensorFlow AI Engine... More Power Tools [For Power?]
In-Reply-To: <32713821-D718-487C-AF74-64F00DBEEABE@openmailbox.org>
References: <20151114032504.CD07EA0701C@palinka.tinho.net>
 <32713821-D718-487C-AF74-64F00DBEEABE@openmailbox.org>
Message-ID: <5646e345.972a370a.10dff.6430@mx.google.com>

On Sat, 14 Nov 2015 07:04:15 +0000
oshwm <oshwm at openmailbox.org> wrote:

> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
> Hash: SHA512
> 
> The other day I had to use a real bricks and mortar high street store
> to buy printer ink because the online shops I was going to use all
> blocked Tor exit nodes :(


	Good. The tor scam may be reaching +the end of its shell life. 




> 
> Even my bank blocks 50%+ of the time depending on which exit node I'm
> coning from.
> 
> Web ain't what it used to be :(
> 
> 
> On 14 November 2015 03:25:04 GMT+00:00, dan at geer.org wrote:
> > | The tensorflow site... Cloudflare-stalked. The tutorials page has
> > so
> >| much javscript on it NoScript shows a blank page if you go there.
> >They
> > | want to know who wants to know...
> >
> >I refuse Javascript; the WWW is shrinking given that refusal.
> >It seems that as HTML5 deploys, the shrinkage rate accelerate2.
> >It was fun while it lasted.
> >
> >--dan
> 
> - --
> Sent from my Android device with K-9 Mail. Please excuse my brevity.
> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
> Version: APG v1.1.1
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> -----END PGP SIGNATURE-----
> 




From juan.g71 at gmail.com  Fri Nov 13 23:45:30 2015
From: juan.g71 at gmail.com (juan)
Date: Sat, 14 Nov 2015 04:45:30 -0300
Subject: the nature of government
Message-ID: <5646e4f5.93688c0a.ab8ca.63c2@mx.google.com>




http://kissasian.com/Drama/On-the-Job


Of course, phillippines is not a first world country and the people who
live there are brown. Politics are radically different in the first,
white world, ruled by moses and the rule of law. 




From oshwm at openmailbox.org  Fri Nov 13 23:04:15 2015
From: oshwm at openmailbox.org (oshwm)
Date: Sat, 14 Nov 2015 07:04:15 +0000
Subject: Google's TensorFlow AI Engine... More Power Tools [For Power?]
In-Reply-To: <20151114032504.CD07EA0701C@palinka.tinho.net>
References: <20151114032504.CD07EA0701C@palinka.tinho.net>
Message-ID: <32713821-D718-487C-AF74-64F00DBEEABE@openmailbox.org>

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA512

The other day I had to use a real bricks and mortar high street store to buy printer ink because the online shops I was going to use all blocked Tor exit nodes :(

Even my bank blocks 50%+ of the time depending on which exit node I'm coning from.

Web ain't what it used to be :(


On 14 November 2015 03:25:04 GMT+00:00, dan at geer.org wrote:
> | The tensorflow site... Cloudflare-stalked. The tutorials page has so
>| much javscript on it NoScript shows a blank page if you go there.
>They
> | want to know who wants to know...
>
>I refuse Javascript; the WWW is shrinking given that refusal.
>It seems that as HTML5 deploys, the shrinkage rate accelerate2.
>It was fun while it lasted.
>
>--dan

- --
Sent from my Android device with K-9 Mail. Please excuse my brevity.
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=nMg1
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From oshwm at openmailbox.org  Sat Nov 14 00:35:07 2015
From: oshwm at openmailbox.org (oshwm)
Date: Sat, 14 Nov 2015 08:35:07 +0000
Subject: Google's TensorFlow AI Engine... More Power Tools [For Power?]
In-Reply-To: <5646e345.972a370a.10dff.6430@mx.google.com>
References: <20151114032504.CD07EA0701C@palinka.tinho.net>
 <32713821-D718-487C-AF74-64F00DBEEABE@openmailbox.org>
 <5646e345.972a370a.10dff.6430@mx.google.com>
Message-ID: <64DF4F5B-5046-4AB7-907C-BDDD25732493@openmailbox.org>

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA512

You have to ensure you don't expect more from a tool than the cover it can provide - it serves its purpose of avoiding ISP logging for now :)

On 14 November 2015 07:38:17 GMT+00:00, juan <juan.g71 at gmail.com> wrote:
>On Sat, 14 Nov 2015 07:04:15 +0000
>oshwm <oshwm at openmailbox.org> wrote:
>
>> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
>> Hash: SHA512
>>
>> The other day I had to use a real bricks and mortar high street store
>> to buy printer ink because the online shops I was going to use all
>> blocked Tor exit nodes :(
>
>
>	Good. The tor scam may be reaching +the end of its shell life.
>
>
>
>
>>
>> Even my bank blocks 50%+ of the time depending on which exit node I'm
>> coning from.
>>
>> Web ain't what it used to be :(
>>
>>
>> On 14 November 2015 03:25:04 GMT+00:00, dan at geer.org wrote:
>> > | The tensorflow site... Cloudflare-stalked. The tutorials page has
>> > so
>> >| much javscript on it NoScript shows a blank page if you go there.
>> >They
>> > | want to know who wants to know...
>> >
>> >I refuse Javascript; the WWW is shrinking given that refusal.
>> >It seems that as HTML5 deploys, the shrinkage rate accelerate2.
>> >It was fun while it lasted.
>> >
>> >--dan
>>
>> - --
>> Sent from my Android device with K-9 Mail. Please excuse my brevity.
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>> =nMg1
>> -----END PGP SIGNATURE-----
>>

- --
Sent from my Android device with K-9 Mail. Please excuse my brevity.
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From shelley at misanthropia.org  Sat Nov 14 09:49:26 2015
From: shelley at misanthropia.org (Shelley)
Date: Sat, 14 Nov 2015 09:49:26 -0800
Subject: States Storing And Selling Your DNA At Birth Without Explicit
 Notice Consent (TBA: Hospitals Doctors Testlabs Too)
In-Reply-To: <20151114163621.GA2633@sivokote.iziade.m$>
References: <20151112132530.GA2642@sivokote.iziade.m$>
 <20151114152004.B7518A06DC4@palinka.tinho.net>
 <20151114163621.GA2633@sivokote.iziade.m$>
Message-ID: <20151114174910.64BD4680108@frontend2.nyi.internal>

On November 14, 2015 8:43:49 AM Georgi Guninski <guninski at guninski.com> wrote:

> On Sat, Nov 14, 2015 at 10:20:04AM -0500, dan at geer.org wrote:
> > http://www.smithsonianmag.com/smart-news/this-ear-made-with-van-gogh-dna-1=
> > 80957230/?no-ist
> > .... Using DNA extracted from a stamp
> > licked by the artist, as well as cell samples collected from van
> > Gogh's great-great-grandnephew, Strebe and team created "Sugababe,"
> > an artificially grown ear suspended in a clear gel.
> >
>
> Definitely don't believe usable human DNA on a stamp can survive over
> 120 years unless very carefully preserved since the beginning.
>

Every time I see someone lick an envelope, I tease them for contributing to 
the global DNA database.  Maybe the joke isn't that funny anymore.

-S





From shelley at misanthropia.org  Sat Nov 14 09:59:35 2015
From: shelley at misanthropia.org (Shelley)
Date: Sat, 14 Nov 2015 09:59:35 -0800
Subject: States Storing And Selling Your DNA At Birth Without Explicit
 Notice Consent (TBA: Hospitals Doctors Testlabs Too)
In-Reply-To: <20151114163621.GA2633@sivokote.iziade.m$>
References: <20151112132530.GA2642@sivokote.iziade.m$>
 <20151114152004.B7518A06DC4@palinka.tinho.net>
 <20151114163621.GA2633@sivokote.iziade.m$>
Message-ID: <20151114175920.060E06800BB@frontend2.nyi.internal>


On November 14, 2015 8:43:49 AM Georgi Guninski <guninski at guninski.com> wrote:

> > .... Using DNA extracted from a stamp
> > licked by the artist
>

> Definitely don't believe usable human DNA on a stamp can survive over
> 120 years unless very carefully preserved since the beginning

Sorry, I hit the enter key by mistake.

Wanted to add: when collecting oral fluids for HIV tests, we use a buccal 
swab which needs to be in contact with the oral mucosa for a few seconds in 
order to absorb a sample good enough to perform an accurate ELISA.  So I 
too doubt the viability/usability of a saliva sample on an old stamp.

Still, I will continue to use a sponge to seal my envelopes...that glue 
tastes nasty ;)

-S





From dan at geer.org  Sat Nov 14 07:00:50 2015
From: dan at geer.org (dan at geer.org)
Date: Sat, 14 Nov 2015 10:00:50 -0500
Subject: States Storing And Selling Your DNA At Birth Without Explicit
 Notice Consent (TBA: Hospitals Doctors Testlabs Too)
In-Reply-To: Your message of "Wed, 11 Nov 2015 05:59:33 -0500."
 <CAD2Ti29MxUsuHhNEj9XOHW+3yMWQ1EEvZ4V8hQkn118ibVp7GA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <20151114150050.CF3B6A06DC4@palinka.tinho.net>

grarpamp writes:
 | > (TBA: Hospitals Doctors Testlabs Too)
 | 
 | Don't forget the Red Cross and Military
 | among other places that vamp you and
 | do who knows what with it.

Soon to be unnecessary/declasse; see layman's version at

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/health/11883473/People-emit-a-germ-cloud-of-bacteria-as-unique-as-a-fingerprint-study-finds.html

or technical version at

https://peerj.com/articles/1258/

--dan





From oshwm at openmailbox.org  Sat Nov 14 02:17:07 2015
From: oshwm at openmailbox.org (oshwm)
Date: Sat, 14 Nov 2015 10:17:07 +0000
Subject: [FORGED] Re: [FORGED] Re: UK To Ban Crypto In Devices, Email
 And More
In-Reply-To: <7425859.RnpuZD1ro8@lapuntu>
References: <CAD2Ti29w4u9RMOt_gRvWe-vYo_So4R4XyfOYJcqEe_XzPGAL4A@mail.gmail.com>
 <564112FC.9030507@gmail.com> <56411817.3070505@openmailbox.org>
 <7425859.RnpuZD1ro8@lapuntu>
Message-ID: <56470A23.10809@openmailbox.org>

Ok, how about this then...

Your idea on your blog is pretty cool but I think there is an even
simpler way to handle this.

When you sign up for a new mail account, the mail provider generates a
public/private key pair.

It automatically pushes the public key to PGP key servers around the
globe (including its own key servers that it maintains).

The private key is stored by your email provider but protected with your
mail account password (not perfect but simple).

Whenever you send an email to anyone, their email addresses are used to
find a public key for them and then the email is automatically encrypted
and signed using your private key.

For those people who sign up to other services then they can during the
sign up process, allow that service to access their private key to link
the service to their email and their GPG identity - but it can be done
using very simple language such as "allow linking to your email").

For existing mail accounts, the email provider can offer to add
additional security to the users mail account without mentioning PGP
even once.
All of the necessary simplified jargon to do this exists in the day to
day language used by people using email.

More advanced users could have access through 'advanced' mail client
menus if they wanted it etc.

There you go, this could even be done for people who just don't give a
shit about privacy with pretty much no effort and no special language.

let me know once you're done implementing it :D

Cheers,
oshwm.

On 14/11/15 09:55, rysiek wrote:
> Dnia poniedziałek, 9 listopada 2015 22:03:03 oshwm pisze:
>> If I seem angry then it is because everyone seems to say that making a
>> nice easy to use User Interface will solve all the problems with people
>> not using crypto.
> 
> Nobody is saying that. Stop discussing with this straw man, and start -- I 
> don't know -- reading what people are actually saying.
> 
> Usability *is* important, but so is motivation and education. They all go hand 
> in hand, and if you do not recognize this, you will constantly be in a state 
> of awe why people are not using GPG. Not sure that's a winning strategy, 
> though.
> 

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From dan at geer.org  Sat Nov 14 07:20:04 2015
From: dan at geer.org (dan at geer.org)
Date: Sat, 14 Nov 2015 10:20:04 -0500
Subject: States Storing And Selling Your DNA At Birth Without Explicit
 Notice Consent (TBA: Hospitals Doctors Testlabs Too)
In-Reply-To: Your message of "Thu, 12 Nov 2015 15:25:30 +0200."
 <20151112132530.GA2642@sivokote.iziade.m$>
Message-ID: <20151114152004.B7518A06DC4@palinka.tinho.net>

 > Besides blood, can (parts of) DNA be recovered from other stuff
 > say hair, urine?


http://www.smithsonianmag.com/smart-news/this-ear-made-with-van-gogh-dna-1=
80957230/?no-ist

Vincent van Gogh's ear is nearly as famous as his jaw-dropping
Starry Night. Though its final resting place may never be found --
as the legend goes, he severed off part of his ear and then gave
it to a prostitute, museumgoers in New York can get a look at the
next best thing. ArtNet's Sarah Cascone reports that a living replica
of van Gogh's ear, created using the artist's DNA, is now on display
at Ronald Feldman Fine Arts in New York City.

The ear is the gruesome brainchild of Diemut Strebe, a conceptual
artist who partnered with scientists from MIT and other universities
to create a copy of van Gogh's ear. Using DNA extracted from a stamp
licked by the artist, as well as cell samples collected from van
Gogh's great-great-grandnephew, Strebe and team created "Sugababe,"
an artificially grown ear suspended in a clear gel.

Visitors don't have to merely look at the ear'they can talk into
it, too. On her website, Strebe writes that "the input sound is
connected to a computer processor, using a software program to
generate simulated nerve impulses from the sound signal in real
time. They mimic sounds recorded from an electrode inserted into
the auditory nerve, when firing." Noam Chomsky was the first person
to speak into the ear after it debuted in Germany last year.

In a 2014 story about the bizarre art project, Cascone writes that
the ear is "just one of a limited edition." Neither van Gogh's
relatives nor the Dutch museum that bears his name want copies of
their own.

If "Sugababe" is a slightly macabre commentary on fame and art,
it's also a tribute to a world-famous artistic body part. It's not
certain what actually happened to van Gogh's ear: though he supposedly
gave it to a prostitute during a mental breakdown, recent scholarship
suggests that it was actually cut off by Paul Gauguin during an
argument between the two artists.

Perhaps van Gogh could have benefitted from 21st-century ear
replication technology. Still, there's no telling what the painter'who
once proclaimed that the idea of exhibiting his work left him
"absolutely cold" would make of artwork inspired by one of his
darkest moments.




From zen at freedbms.net  Sat Nov 14 02:39:29 2015
From: zen at freedbms.net (Zenaan Harkness)
Date: Sat, 14 Nov 2015 10:39:29 +0000
Subject: pervasive opportunistic encryption of voice and text communication
Message-ID: <CAOsGNSSaOyy7iHW1hENh9b_kmd7CVNis6v=CNh259vW3Df07WQ@mail.gmail.com>

I think RedPhone / Open Whisper Systems is a start to what we might
achieve as a "base" level of privacy for "most people" in modern
digital communications:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Open_Whisper_Systems

https://whispersystems.org/

"Open Whisper Systems is a nonprofit software group[3] that develops
collaborative open source projects with a mission to "make private
communication simple"."

So, for those so inspired, these might be the guys to work with.

(Figured a new thread on actual projects / potential new ideas (rather
than just complaints) is in order.)




From rysiek at hackerspace.pl  Sat Nov 14 01:40:34 2015
From: rysiek at hackerspace.pl (rysiek)
Date: Sat, 14 Nov 2015 11:40:34 +0200
Subject: The Gentleman's Guide To Forum Spies (spooks, feds, etc.)
In-Reply-To: <20151112180951.GC7122@ctrlc.hu>
References: <20151112180951.GC7122@ctrlc.hu>
Message-ID: <1707747.lCC2U80kLc@lapuntu>

Dnia czwartek, 12 listopada 2015 19:09:51 stef pisze:
> for those who have not seen this and those who are unaware of the things
> going on here:
> http://pastebin.com/irj4Fyd5

This is a great resource, thanks!

-- 
Pozdrawiam,
Michał "rysiek" Woźniak

Zmieniam klucz GPG :: http://rys.io/pl/147
GPG Key Transition :: http://rys.io/en/147
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From rysiek at hackerspace.pl  Sat Nov 14 01:45:13 2015
From: rysiek at hackerspace.pl (rysiek)
Date: Sat, 14 Nov 2015 11:45:13 +0200
Subject: [Decrypted] Re: UK To Ban Crypto In Devices, Email And More
In-Reply-To: <269749894.1678408.1447010035514.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com>
References: <563F9389.7040802@riseup.net>
 <269749894.1678408.1447010035514.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <1776698.sUrIJltC3A@lapuntu>

Dnia niedziela, 8 listopada 2015 19:13:55 jim bell pisze:
> By now, cell phones ought to have an end-to-end encryption app available.
>  Why not?

There's a number of these available, including Tox (Antox for Android, for 
example, uTox/qTox for desktop).

-- 
Pozdrawiam,
Michał "rysiek" Woźniak

Zmieniam klucz GPG :: http://rys.io/pl/147
GPG Key Transition :: http://rys.io/en/147
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From rysiek at hackerspace.pl  Sat Nov 14 01:51:55 2015
From: rysiek at hackerspace.pl (rysiek)
Date: Sat, 14 Nov 2015 11:51:55 +0200
Subject: [FORGED] Re: UK To Ban Crypto In Devices, Email And More
In-Reply-To: <563F06AB.2010208@openmailbox.org>
References: <CAD2Ti29w4u9RMOt_gRvWe-vYo_So4R4XyfOYJcqEe_XzPGAL4A@mail.gmail.com>
 <563eebdf.431a370a.afed.ffffd5ca@mx.google.com>
 <563F06AB.2010208@openmailbox.org>
Message-ID: <4959981.ImIuqIkee4@lapuntu>

Dnia niedziela, 8 listopada 2015 08:24:11 oshwm pisze:
> So, the issue is one of motivation, not difficulty.

It's both. Have you tried using Enigmail or Mailvelope? Oh man. Enigmail on 
Windoze last time I checked couldn't handle passwords with non-ASCII chars (I 
think this is *still true*). Mailvelope requires you to explicitly select the 
keys you want to encrypt your message with instead of at least pre-filling the 
list with addressees of the e-mail.

The most usable PGP/GPG interface I've seen (and am still using, even though 
there are other problems with the broader setup) is KMail+KGPG. And it could 
*still* be much more convenient.

Simple thing that any such interface could do to make key 
exchange/verification much easier and manageable to 90% of people is letting 
you use key fingerprints instead of e-mails in the To/CC fields:
http://rys.io/pl/122

And yes, motivation is a large, large issue too! But usability of most of the 
tools is dismal.

-- 
Pozdrawiam,
Michał "rysiek" Woźniak

Zmieniam klucz GPG :: http://rys.io/pl/147
GPG Key Transition :: http://rys.io/en/147
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From rysiek at hackerspace.pl  Sat Nov 14 01:53:03 2015
From: rysiek at hackerspace.pl (rysiek)
Date: Sat, 14 Nov 2015 11:53:03 +0200
Subject: [FORGED] Re: [FORGED] Re: UK To Ban Crypto In Devices,
 Email And More
In-Reply-To: <564112FC.9030507@gmail.com>
References: <CAD2Ti29w4u9RMOt_gRvWe-vYo_So4R4XyfOYJcqEe_XzPGAL4A@mail.gmail.com>
 <563F0BB7.4090708@openmailbox.org> <564112FC.9030507@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <1618315.RzBtfXf1Ez@lapuntu>

Dnia poniedziałek, 9 listopada 2015 22:41:16 Tomas Overdrive Petru pisze:
> Really? So what is purpose of this thread if I can ask? To complain that
> ordinary people are sheep?

I am slowly starting to think that this is the purpose of this whole *list*.
-_-;

-- 
Pozdrawiam,
Michał "rysiek" Woźniak

Zmieniam klucz GPG :: http://rys.io/pl/147
GPG Key Transition :: http://rys.io/en/147
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From rysiek at hackerspace.pl  Sat Nov 14 01:55:45 2015
From: rysiek at hackerspace.pl (rysiek)
Date: Sat, 14 Nov 2015 11:55:45 +0200
Subject: [FORGED] Re: [FORGED] Re: UK To Ban Crypto In Devices,
 Email And More
In-Reply-To: <56411817.3070505@openmailbox.org>
References: <CAD2Ti29w4u9RMOt_gRvWe-vYo_So4R4XyfOYJcqEe_XzPGAL4A@mail.gmail.com>
 <564112FC.9030507@gmail.com> <56411817.3070505@openmailbox.org>
Message-ID: <7425859.RnpuZD1ro8@lapuntu>

Dnia poniedziałek, 9 listopada 2015 22:03:03 oshwm pisze:
> If I seem angry then it is because everyone seems to say that making a
> nice easy to use User Interface will solve all the problems with people
> not using crypto.

Nobody is saying that. Stop discussing with this straw man, and start -- I 
don't know -- reading what people are actually saying.

Usability *is* important, but so is motivation and education. They all go hand 
in hand, and if you do not recognize this, you will constantly be in a state 
of awe why people are not using GPG. Not sure that's a winning strategy, 
though.

-- 
Pozdrawiam,
Michał "rysiek" Woźniak

Zmieniam klucz GPG :: http://rys.io/pl/147
GPG Key Transition :: http://rys.io/en/147
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From guninski at guninski.com  Sat Nov 14 08:36:21 2015
From: guninski at guninski.com (Georgi Guninski)
Date: Sat, 14 Nov 2015 18:36:21 +0200
Subject: States Storing And Selling Your DNA At Birth Without Explicit
 Notice Consent (TBA: Hospitals Doctors Testlabs Too)
In-Reply-To: <20151114152004.B7518A06DC4@palinka.tinho.net>
References: <20151112132530.GA2642@sivokote.iziade.m$>
 <20151114152004.B7518A06DC4@palinka.tinho.net>
Message-ID: <20151114163621.GA2633@sivokote.iziade.m$>

On Sat, Nov 14, 2015 at 10:20:04AM -0500, dan at geer.org wrote:
> http://www.smithsonianmag.com/smart-news/this-ear-made-with-van-gogh-dna-1=
> 80957230/?no-ist
> .... Using DNA extracted from a stamp
> licked by the artist, as well as cell samples collected from van
> Gogh's great-great-grandnephew, Strebe and team created "Sugababe,"
> an artificially grown ear suspended in a clear gel.
>

Definitely don't believe usable human DNA on a stamp can survive over
120 years unless very carefully preserved since the beginning.


great-great-grandnephew is entirely different stuff.




From grarpamp at gmail.com  Sat Nov 14 22:53:13 2015
From: grarpamp at gmail.com (grarpamp)
Date: Sun, 15 Nov 2015 01:53:13 -0500
Subject: Reaching the Sheeple, Building a Cpunk Symbiot Army
Message-ID: <CAD2Ti2-M+yr5KpfGnB07ZqHnVVWbj3T_rdjzAvr3Jzz4uUL8sg@mail.gmail.com>

On Sat, Nov 14, 2015 at 4:53 AM, rysiek <rysiek at hackerspace.pl> wrote:
> Dnia poniedziałek, 9 listopada 2015 22:41:16 Tomas Overdrive Petru pisze:
>> Really? So what is purpose of this thread if I can ask? To complain that
>> ordinary people are sheep?
>
> I am slowly starting to think that this is the purpose of this whole *list*.

Cpunk care about the sheeple, and their gripe is a legit frustration...
sheeple seem to be biologically unreachable regarding the risks
they face in this area.

Can anyone point out a successful strategy that has been used for
the cpunk to reach and enlighten them such that they make some sort
of change for themselves, or act to change their world?

Now look at a certain subset of sheeple... the NRA.  These folks
are built of the same sort as the average sheeple, but it is
discovered one thing that motivates and resonates them... guns, and
the surrounding rhetoric and issues.  And it so happens that they
also have a strong interest in privacy and dislike of government
nature. They mention against the NSA and spying and databases in
their convention speeches, you can find them on youtube. And their
political action call tree and fundraising is one to be reckoned
with. If cpunks would just reach out, these guys would be a close
symbiot army.  For example, if you show them your encrypted chat
app it's not long before lightbulb and they ask you "Wait, so you
mean I can talk shit with my buds about how many rounds of ammo I
got in the basement, moonshine, and that damn president we got...
all without the gubmint hearing me?" "Yep," you say, at which point
you've become instant friends.

Yet where is the cpunk set up with a booth at NRA conventions and
gun shows giving demos and handing out pamphlets???

The sheeple may be mostly hopeless cause, but there are various
groups that could be allied with in order to multiply cpunk numbers
to the level necessary to effect change.  Which ones and why?

The religious...
Doctor Patient...
Attorney Client...
???

Where is Cpunk focusing its efforts and getting results?
Wasting on Johnny who might not ever get it, or on cultivating a
symbiot army that will cause change and thus bring something new
to Johnny by default.




From grarpamp at gmail.com  Sat Nov 14 23:40:36 2015
From: grarpamp at gmail.com (grarpamp)
Date: Sun, 15 Nov 2015 02:40:36 -0500
Subject: Pride and Legacy Thinking is a Tired Old Bitch
Message-ID: <CAD2Ti29CEc0EPV+aBpvnzmF8f0bWRSDKZAfiGR-F2ef538HnvQ@mail.gmail.com>

On Sat, Nov 14, 2015 at 5:17 AM, oshwm <oshwm at openmailbox.org> wrote:
> Ok, how about this then...
>
> Your idea on your blog is pretty cool but I think there is an even
> simpler way to handle this.
>
> When you sign up for a new mail account, the mail provider...

... is still the weakest link. Anyone can design a scheme where
users can turn the net black with encrypted email bodies.
However these days, and really since day one, it has been known
that email bodies are only half the problem in the full threat model.
The other half is metadata. And now with them pushing code to
you, it's become even worse.

So please stop talking about what you're going to bolt on to fix
traditional centralised email services. They cannot be fixed, ever.

And start talking about what you're going to build to replace them.
Or testing and contributing to development of proposed replacements.

Pride of owning yet another commercial central service is a tired old bitch.
Pride of dropping a true anonymous encrypted p2p protocol
that scales and reaches adoption... now that's priceless.
Regarding some of the elements in the latter, Bram's Bittorrent made it,
Satoshi's Bitcoin is doing quite well, as are things like I2P, many to list.
You could be next with more...




From grarpamp at gmail.com  Sat Nov 14 23:43:47 2015
From: grarpamp at gmail.com (grarpamp)
Date: Sun, 15 Nov 2015 02:43:47 -0500
Subject: [FORGED] Re: [FORGED] Re: UK To Ban Crypto In Devices,
 Email And More
In-Reply-To: <56470A23.10809@openmailbox.org>
References: <CAD2Ti29w4u9RMOt_gRvWe-vYo_So4R4XyfOYJcqEe_XzPGAL4A@mail.gmail.com>
 <564112FC.9030507@gmail.com> <56411817.3070505@openmailbox.org>
 <7425859.RnpuZD1ro8@lapuntu> <56470A23.10809@openmailbox.org>
Message-ID: <CAD2Ti28c75cgPMh+crngvGqMg-tZQ1pOUZLQOEkRSdsbnHCf-w@mail.gmail.com>

On Sat, Nov 14, 2015 at 5:17 AM, oshwm <oshwm at openmailbox.org> wrote:
> sign up process, allow that service to access their private key to link
> the service to their email and their GPG identity - but it can be done
> using very simple language such as "allow linking to your email").

Which of course will always be answered "yes", where it happens makes
not difference. However value in the user brokering their own data out of
their own store, at least that way they have some small chance to retain
control and/or recover and/or be guided by their geek friend in person.

> For existing mail accounts, the email provider can offer to add
> additional security to the users mail account without mentioning PGP
> even once.

Similarly, it's called HOTP, TOTP or system under user control, not
sending your valuable metadata of email, phone or bio auth to them.




From grarpamp at gmail.com  Sun Nov 15 02:39:19 2015
From: grarpamp at gmail.com (grarpamp)
Date: Sun, 15 Nov 2015 05:39:19 -0500
Subject: [Cryptography] Bear Bonds - a new crytpocurrency
In-Reply-To: <20151114182041.Horde.KkP9f3xtW8IxvNjuHmEz4ZI@pam.asoshared.com>
References: <90915577-0641-4F27-A566-8197D25C92E9@me.com>
 <20151114182041.Horde.KkP9f3xtW8IxvNjuHmEz4ZI@pam.asoshared.com>
Message-ID: <CAD2Ti28Q229gY1gMJE24cdP6F1+8tA5NTg98VqXXoVMwEhQYng@mail.gmail.com>

>> And details on "directory servers", "witnesses", "trusted party
>> transaction servers".

I was looking for details on who or what process selects / runs / chooses
these nodes, and how.

That and words like 'trusted' are critical in these communities and
do we not yet see these established in the quoted things above?

What makes them unable to censor transactions?
Or to censor other nodes, or unspent outputs?
Who has authority for issuing control messages?
What are their key practices and defense to various threats?

>> An admittedly very brief reading, site verbage, including trademark,
>> patent and copyright claims leaves question as to commitment to
>> fully decentralized p2p model and opensource. If true, you might find
>> quite limited interest here and more interest by banks, govts, and
>> commercial. If untrue and misread, please address.

This question was not yet answered.

These and the license may not be 'notable features' for certain
of these communities, and should certainly be detailed
in any full and legitimate comparison to Bitcoin...
https://www.bearbonds.org/legal/software-license-agreement/
What is the open development model?
What aligns you (or not) with the various non-technical philosophies
of Bitcoin (to which you already strive to technically compare)?

> We currently do not support any network other than Tor.  Before introducing a
> new network, we would have to carefully consider whether it could potentially
> compromise privacy and security.

Do you have a paper covering your analysis of Tor in that regard?
It would certainly be welcomed and of interest to at least the
Tor community.




From grarpamp at gmail.com  Sun Nov 15 02:41:49 2015
From: grarpamp at gmail.com (grarpamp)
Date: Sun, 15 Nov 2015 05:41:49 -0500
Subject: When the Party Van is at your doorstep
Message-ID: <CAD2Ti2_Ajy8CKWXs76vz2PsJ4=r5r5s0YBKQHSdybt5Xd+=TLg@mail.gmail.com>

https://archive.org/details/OHM2013-Partyvan
http://cryto.net/~joepie91/




From grarpamp at gmail.com  Sun Nov 15 02:56:17 2015
From: grarpamp at gmail.com (grarpamp)
Date: Sun, 15 Nov 2015 05:56:17 -0500
Subject: Open Fabs
Message-ID: <CAD2Ti28k_AGdJAX_7HbpJhh+Lcv=64pt2-ZQaeRtA1shR2cNaA@mail.gmail.com>

Open Fabs might choose to [modify and] incorporate various
familiar auditing methods, including those which are rejected
by closed fabs due to their openness...

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Statement_on_Auditing_Standards_No._70:_Service_Organizations
https://www.iana.org/dnssec/ceremonies/22
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Certificate_authority
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ISO_9000
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trusted_Computer_System_Evaluation_Criteria




From zen at freedbms.net  Sat Nov 14 23:53:20 2015
From: zen at freedbms.net (Zenaan Harkness)
Date: Sun, 15 Nov 2015 07:53:20 +0000
Subject: State sponsored, unaccountable blackmail - backround to Mohammed
 'Jihadi John' Emwazi
Message-ID: <CAOsGNSQCt1SttCb=dzob8_qv=nQCip3zOXQJf8nudXVhTWLMug@mail.gmail.com>

https://www.opendemocracy.net/ourkingdom/ben-hayes/why-britain-won%E2%80%99t-talk-about-crucial-elements-of-jihadi-john%E2%80%99s-story

Why Britain won’t talk about crucial elements of Jihadi John’s story
Ben Hayes 28 February 2015

The role of our security services in the actions of 'Jihadi John'
needs grown up discussion – we must not forget the lessons of Northern
Ireland.

In “Suspect Community: People’s Experience of the Prevention of
Terrorism Acts in Britain”, Professor Paddy Hillyard produced what
remains the world’s most detailed ethnographic study of the impact of
repressive laws and state policies on what we now call
“radicalisation”. That was 1993. Hillyard, a former chair of the
National Council of Civil Liberties (now Liberty), had interviewed
more than 100 people of Irish catholic descent and provided
unequivocal evidence that their everyday treatment at the hands of the
British state had boosted support for Irish republicanism, acted as a
recruiting sergeant for the IRA and fuelled “the Troubles”. Of course
it wasn’t the only “radicalising” factor: Bloody Sunday, a
shoot-to-kill policy and state collusion with Loyalist paramilitaries
also played their part. As of course did the violence, propaganda and
popularity of organisations like the IRA.

We could learn a lot from people like Paddy Hillyard and the
incremental moves toward truth and reconciliation in the north of
Ireland. Instead, this valuable insight is being steadily exorcised
from public debate – as are the similar experiences of Muslim
communities at the hands of the British state.

Yesterday the identity of “Jihadi John”, the ISIS
executioner-in-chief, was revealed to belong to British citizen
Mohammed Emwazi. The human rights group CAGE – the only organisation
in Britain who offers legal support to Muslims who have been
interrogated or harassed by the security services (support which is
readily available to most others questioned by the UK authorities) –
produced a 3,000 word dossier detailing his treatment between 2009 and
2013. This included, inter alia, the surveillance of his movements,
the interception of his telecommunications, the orchestration of his
arrest in Tanzania and transfer to the Netherlands where he was
interrogated by MI5, attempts to coerce him into becoming an MI5
informer, harassment of his family and fiancé, and the prevention of
his resettlement in Kuwait – all in the absence of any formal
allegation, charge or prospect of official recourse.

Since this occurred well before Mohammed Emwazi’s departure from the
UK and appearance in Syria as “Jihadi John”, one might have thought
our media duty bound to ask whether this and other encounters played
any part in his decision to go there. Indeed the most revealing
exchange, which should surely have been on the lips of any journalist
worth their salt, is the following, spoken by MI5 agent “Nick”:
“Listen Mohammed: You’ve got the whole world in front of you; you’re
21 years old; you just finished Uni – why don’t you work for us?” When
Mohammed declines, he is told: “You’re going to have a lot of
trouble... You’re going to be known... you’re going to be followed...
life will be harder for you.”

Let us be clear that whatever else may have transpired since this
exchange, here is a credible allegation of state-sanctioned blackmail
of one of our citizens upon pain of having his life ruined by
unaccountable security forces. When things like this happen to Muslims
in Arab dictatorships, we talk about “secret police” and “fearsome
security apparatuses”. When they happen here, we put our fingers in
our ears and demand that Muslims “get over themselves” and condemn
acts of terrorism.

And so it was that Kay Burley of Sky News duly began her interview
with a CAGE spokesman by asking “What level of harassment by the
security services here in the United Kingdom justifies beheadings?” –
a plainly preposterous straw man argument that literally no-one was
making. Liberal pin-up Jon Snow also glossed over the evidence
produced by CAGE, before getting down to the most important business
of the day: demanding that their spokespeople condemn terrorism, and
seeking to belittle them when they question why this demand is only
ever made of Muslims, or worse still, refuse to participate in the
ridiculous spectacle.

It was already a nailed-on certainty that the government and the media
would turn the “extremist” spotlight onto CAGE and its supporters in a
witch hunt that would make McCarthy blush. But having anointed Peter
Oborne the Supreme Ruler of Media Integrity for taking on the
Telegraph, perhaps they should ask him what he thinks about CAGE’s
treatment at the hands of the establishment. Or reflect on CAGE’s
founder and director’s own experience at the hands of MI5, or his
three-and-a-half years of illegal detention in Guantanamo Bay and
Belmarsh prisons. Nope: they’re just “apologists for terrorism”,
guilty until proven innocent.

Human rights and social justice groups should be supporting CAGE in
its endeavours to uncover the extra-judicial prosecution of the “war
on terror” in this country. They won’t because they’re scared of the
“public perception”. Much easier to support free expression from
behind the comfort of a “Je Suis Charlie” banner. The country should
be having a serious conversation about the way “intelligence-led
policing” has undermined our national security and human rights by
linking the treatment of Mohammed Emwazi to the discredited use of
informants and double agents in Northern Ireland, to the links between
MI5 and extremist groups, and to an undercover culture that has
perverted the pursuit of social and legal justice in this country. It
won’t, because we’ll turn a blind eye to anything at the drop of the
T-word.

Something fundamental has to change if we’re to have the grown-up
conversations that can inform these policies, and that can temper the
appeal of extremism and violence in all quarters.




From oshwm at openmailbox.org  Sun Nov 15 01:02:25 2015
From: oshwm at openmailbox.org (oshwm)
Date: Sun, 15 Nov 2015 09:02:25 +0000
Subject: [FORGED] Re: [FORGED] Re: UK To Ban Crypto In Devices, Email
 And More
In-Reply-To: <CAD2Ti28c75cgPMh+crngvGqMg-tZQ1pOUZLQOEkRSdsbnHCf-w@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAD2Ti29w4u9RMOt_gRvWe-vYo_So4R4XyfOYJcqEe_XzPGAL4A@mail.gmail.com>
 <564112FC.9030507@gmail.com> <56411817.3070505@openmailbox.org>
 <7425859.RnpuZD1ro8@lapuntu> <56470A23.10809@openmailbox.org>
 <CAD2Ti28c75cgPMh+crngvGqMg-tZQ1pOUZLQOEkRSdsbnHCf-w@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <56484A21.2040200@openmailbox.org>



On 15/11/15 07:43, grarpamp wrote:
> On Sat, Nov 14, 2015 at 5:17 AM, oshwm <oshwm at openmailbox.org> wrote:
>> sign up process, allow that service to access their private key to link
>> the service to their email and their GPG identity - but it can be done
>> using very simple language such as "allow linking to your email").
> 
> Which of course will always be answered "yes", where it happens makes
> not difference. However value in the user brokering their own data out of
> their own store, at least that way they have some small chance to retain
> control and/or recover and/or be guided by their geek friend in person.
> 

Required because users don't want to have to learn crypto terms because
its too much work.

>> For existing mail accounts, the email provider can offer to add
>> additional security to the users mail account without mentioning PGP
>> even once.
> 
> Similarly, it's called HOTP, TOTP or system under user control, not
> sending your valuable metadata of email, phone or bio auth to them.
> 

Its a shit idea but if you want to give sheeple the opportunity to use
encryption without having to learn new stuff then as far as I can see
its the only option.

Anyone who wants to take control can do so once they have learnt the
required knowledge to understand how it all works.

You want flexible or simple? choose one.

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From oshwm at openmailbox.org  Sun Nov 15 01:06:19 2015
From: oshwm at openmailbox.org (oshwm)
Date: Sun, 15 Nov 2015 09:06:19 +0000
Subject: Pride and Legacy Thinking is a Tired Old Bitch
In-Reply-To: <CAD2Ti29CEc0EPV+aBpvnzmF8f0bWRSDKZAfiGR-F2ef538HnvQ@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAD2Ti29CEc0EPV+aBpvnzmF8f0bWRSDKZAfiGR-F2ef538HnvQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <56484B0B.9010704@openmailbox.org>



On 15/11/15 07:40, grarpamp wrote:
> On Sat, Nov 14, 2015 at 5:17 AM, oshwm <oshwm at openmailbox.org> wrote:
>> Ok, how about this then...
>>
>> Your idea on your blog is pretty cool but I think there is an even
>> simpler way to handle this.
>>
>> When you sign up for a new mail account, the mail provider...
> 
> ... is still the weakest link. Anyone can design a scheme where
> users can turn the net black with encrypted email bodies.
> However these days, and really since day one, it has been known
> that email bodies are only half the problem in the full threat model.
> The other half is metadata. And now with them pushing code to
> you, it's become even worse.
> 
> So please stop talking about what you're going to bolt on to fix
> traditional centralised email services. They cannot be fixed, ever.
> 
> And start talking about what you're going to build to replace them.
> Or testing and contributing to development of proposed replacements.
> 
> Pride of owning yet another commercial central service is a tired old bitch.
> Pride of dropping a true anonymous encrypted p2p protocol
> that scales and reaches adoption... now that's priceless.
> Regarding some of the elements in the latter, Bram's Bittorrent made it,
> Satoshi's Bitcoin is doing quite well, as are things like I2P, many to list.
> You could be next with more...
> 

I think we need to decide what we're trying to fix first.
People were talking about GPG being difficult to use and so adoption is
poor.
What I suggested fixes the GPG is difficult issue - which ppl were
accusing me of straw-manning and instead I should do something positive.
So I did, I gave you the answer to GPG is hard.

If you want to fix the lack of privacy with email as a whole then as I
said a few emails back, a new protocol is required.
Decentralisation is good. Some sort of mix network is good.
I've heard people mention Pond as an alternative to email which I have
no experience of but might be worth more investigation.

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From oshwm at openmailbox.org  Sun Nov 15 01:08:58 2015
From: oshwm at openmailbox.org (oshwm)
Date: Sun, 15 Nov 2015 09:08:58 +0000
Subject: Reaching the Sheeple, Building a Cpunk Symbiot Army
In-Reply-To: <CAD2Ti2-M+yr5KpfGnB07ZqHnVVWbj3T_rdjzAvr3Jzz4uUL8sg@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAD2Ti2-M+yr5KpfGnB07ZqHnVVWbj3T_rdjzAvr3Jzz4uUL8sg@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <56484BAA.3090502@openmailbox.org>

Not much I can add but +1 :)

This is a great idea, even the best technical solutions will fail if
they do not gain a significant mass adoption and all of these groups
have friends outside of their respective groups.

On 15/11/15 06:53, grarpamp wrote:
> On Sat, Nov 14, 2015 at 4:53 AM, rysiek <rysiek at hackerspace.pl> wrote:
>> Dnia poniedziałek, 9 listopada 2015 22:41:16 Tomas Overdrive Petru pisze:
>>> Really? So what is purpose of this thread if I can ask? To complain that
>>> ordinary people are sheep?
>>
>> I am slowly starting to think that this is the purpose of this whole *list*.
> 
> Cpunk care about the sheeple, and their gripe is a legit frustration...
> sheeple seem to be biologically unreachable regarding the risks
> they face in this area.
> 
> Can anyone point out a successful strategy that has been used for
> the cpunk to reach and enlighten them such that they make some sort
> of change for themselves, or act to change their world?
> 
> Now look at a certain subset of sheeple... the NRA.  These folks
> are built of the same sort as the average sheeple, but it is
> discovered one thing that motivates and resonates them... guns, and
> the surrounding rhetoric and issues.  And it so happens that they
> also have a strong interest in privacy and dislike of government
> nature. They mention against the NSA and spying and databases in
> their convention speeches, you can find them on youtube. And their
> political action call tree and fundraising is one to be reckoned
> with. If cpunks would just reach out, these guys would be a close
> symbiot army.  For example, if you show them your encrypted chat
> app it's not long before lightbulb and they ask you "Wait, so you
> mean I can talk shit with my buds about how many rounds of ammo I
> got in the basement, moonshine, and that damn president we got...
> all without the gubmint hearing me?" "Yep," you say, at which point
> you've become instant friends.
> 
> Yet where is the cpunk set up with a booth at NRA conventions and
> gun shows giving demos and handing out pamphlets???
> 
> The sheeple may be mostly hopeless cause, but there are various
> groups that could be allied with in order to multiply cpunk numbers
> to the level necessary to effect change.  Which ones and why?
> 
> The religious...
> Doctor Patient...
> Attorney Client...
> ???
> 
> Where is Cpunk focusing its efforts and getting results?
> Wasting on Johnny who might not ever get it, or on cultivating a
> symbiot army that will cause change and thus bring something new
> to Johnny by default.
> 

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From coderman at gmail.com  Sun Nov 15 10:54:55 2015
From: coderman at gmail.com (coderman)
Date: Sun, 15 Nov 2015 10:54:55 -0800
Subject: RT assets to be seized due to preaching First Amendment rights
In-Reply-To: <CAOsGNSRCOrADbOdpfq+-mAGGL1ZdJokhLDh76cvJUTM9mw36jA@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAOsGNSRCOrADbOdpfq+-mAGGL1ZdJokhLDh76cvJUTM9mw36jA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAJVRA1R_r8OxR+kpfvvU6-JUct7mN2D8kVzDF=nesK94E06CXA@mail.gmail.com>

On 11/13/15, Zenaan Harkness <zen at freedbms.net> wrote:
> ...
> Now if only cypherpunks could be so vilified by the MSM for promoting
> our inalienable right to private encrypted communications...


careful what you wish for?




From coderman at gmail.com  Sun Nov 15 10:56:58 2015
From: coderman at gmail.com (coderman)
Date: Sun, 15 Nov 2015 10:56:58 -0800
Subject: pervasive opportunistic encryption of voice and text communication
In-Reply-To: <CAOsGNSSaOyy7iHW1hENh9b_kmd7CVNis6v=CNh259vW3Df07WQ@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAOsGNSSaOyy7iHW1hENh9b_kmd7CVNis6v=CNh259vW3Df07WQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAJVRA1SYTX1t4aXudNCx=Yr=MqBF8RcOVniDfJ08mg3RhTXV_Q@mail.gmail.com>

On 11/14/15, Zenaan Harkness <zen at freedbms.net> wrote:
> I think RedPhone / Open Whisper Systems is a start to what we might
> achieve as a "base" level of privacy for "most people"...

moxie makes compromises (by playing within the Apple/GOOG system)

we should do better!




From coderman at gmail.com  Sun Nov 15 11:00:53 2015
From: coderman at gmail.com (coderman)
Date: Sun, 15 Nov 2015 11:00:53 -0800
Subject: Open Fabs
In-Reply-To: <CAD2Ti28k_AGdJAX_7HbpJhh+Lcv=64pt2-ZQaeRtA1shR2cNaA@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAD2Ti28k_AGdJAX_7HbpJhh+Lcv=64pt2-ZQaeRtA1shR2cNaA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAJVRA1Tt-OTuJr4OZXQu8yHENtwK2eacfALtsbsv_8kn_fg-FA@mail.gmail.com>

On 11/15/15, grarpamp <grarpamp at gmail.com> wrote:
> Open Fabs might choose to [modify and] incorporate various
> familiar auditing methods, including those which are rejected
> by closed fabs due to their openness...

chain of custody with trusted agents maintaining perfect presence.
maintain CoC throughout entire fabrication cycle, until end product in
hand. (then pass to next chain of custody for fabrication...)

even the most extreme audit proposal lacks this level of diligence.




From coderman at gmail.com  Sun Nov 15 11:28:44 2015
From: coderman at gmail.com (coderman)
Date: Sun, 15 Nov 2015 11:28:44 -0800
Subject: FOIPA adventures
In-Reply-To: <CAJVRA1Q63E-BGJn1ozk5sDfe9RuKNA0jhai6Lzxb63-Tq54UGQ@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAJVRA1SaJpNaPQx=s_7VVM==ony2sH0aUG3w11cjNX6escSm8w@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAJVRA1TUfu40206TOzK2kBsgCvbgBYYXmyKZ3E5n4KQuoEtZyg@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAJVRA1QtgMky_hsDLsmFwiXcxE528bZaDOQsjTqqj4tR-dbGBQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAJVRA1RwoyoRs-REWnhGd8cHZM6EJvcziTUDXbU5A6TMigOT6A@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAJVRA1Rwaq1fvE8p-s1JwOANvMc7X2E75bx5eNd4KGJapt6Nuw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAJVRA1TU5Frg3WOJk+3ZFEH0QAFya5xZnwzCfCUE+hL1NhKUFg@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAJVRA1Q0SDo9Fj3KAU9vA3cxR2=7pwcdpO3Ex=yi6g2WtRAg6A@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAJVRA1Srrb08Z9XvG+rYq30p2E_MnhJA6ynOLpdT--6gCvwiyQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAJVRA1RXD2dr16TJZK-MPcJm7nR0Ov=Dp9i5Anf5hKNFs2hq7w@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAJVRA1S97DSPk0NBjgon1LS4HHuGtq_03dqFppUnWq+t61a41A@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAJVRA1SyW_wOUcFUo6STbiePO8HmLV9LgF-PCgugvuPRD_tKWA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAJVRA1QaYYF=hoSQiSd4SHNUj-W6hjEJDhy1KxR9CfFKDgNkew@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAJVRA1TvZxj_qz6_xK8h13LOD-5mE6iNvT9dnThf4ue0_=kY3Q@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAJVRA1RbeuzfiVAOqaZ15p8kr67jxcBoNMOrJkt3K86_=FuVXw@mail.gmail.com>
 <000701d0bcb7$94118e80$bc34ab80$@co.uk>
 <CAJVRA1SE1O-PqmkV8vX=q5j_xs-YFOpH=OLxSvwaT8BBvadQmA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAJVRA1TwM3Re8Tz6NPxp_CeY5C4K3QN+Ceo5VbW3JKMbBABv9g@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAJVRA1SbqTrEbUJ84rLFWdu6+psY5uUzu-ZsVfyUwoSaMRcGdQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAJVRA1RDN6HsLCbF_wsK+zARO9PaEn80R9FSGnWgGVF4XkbbpQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAJVRA1Rt2gKvgnM0MCiqf2Q4vJ8wWxm=KabcQXeBYSqn4zRvKg@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAJVRA1Q95CKTVahkfQeH_pwaGDcgJ-4OL2=9o5ckQrZLG8HeUA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAJVRA1SyX65OE9-7DQ1hP1fGWHxY8rvCqFXhKPu4Oy4o6wt0gg@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAJVRA1SgoLtLFS9AFf_d043AGDVbKp4djDtijDR+zfCRJ8twTA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAJVRA1SvN5ML7TQnOUqz78PhYv8aefz=k8-4fPOwv2uHUVF3_w@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAJVRA1Ry2EV7qaFHmZJ9cjm8-waCNBCzenO9BpqW+YKChEHX7w@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAJVRA1S5juVmB6Ouy0JWbdeJdj9yz0W6tKQDY2q_zi+AC461EA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAJVRA1SYO0ia4VGLwFwZFowkD75YR61MC1TNc1wzHbZtmhy1_w@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAJVRA1SqWMVy6m6KuiJWQQG_6XPWoB+86-p45PWKvfn8wg_jeA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAJVRA1RWaiCZtig6+Seyk-UN9M3h9+2iZ0Otnqb6n=AFcRAeRw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAJVRA1QzHeh=rs0hRf0sugLZdbXvAhK+2Yte5Tbt_Tnv5Tf8mg@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAJVRA1SdAW+36Z8yYTdSFTtz8S8U5aiELv5NiuXg5Rg-vaFYew@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAJVRA1Svk488ax6sd4oy52rfM_u_E1EuzhUAQt6cQ2Jy5yRx5g@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAJVRA1S4=X5P6hKnZu224GjseL5ws1vRm6Gk4gJ+DG06oLjaDA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAJVRA1RsgoKvADCcRz76vj1xjT+EQDB96tw7-sgg_pf+BGzA=A@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAJVRA1TOMYnBh0-B=uh6n2HsOsFdY+SKVG-=XqKi6WPNro++PA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAJVRA1Qao1qE2kBSbb_V5NPQ7PF--VFnYQpc=08wY2_ZURz4hg@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAJVRA1S45TEydVoKDxW9SfC0DKcSdxB_HfjrvcZQjU5uymfFOQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAD2Ti29j9qCnTCBEpaTj9B2NdWpLQoAiT02QzbitiART9tFg6A@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAJVRA1SAOUWi485z=_VRnhLu=EL1c8rVQOvdFz09-P4TjbLHww@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAJVRA1T0E3Lny4YPOjvvCtpSZOmx5dim+nw7e_Zzz-PYXNUAjg@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAJVRA1TtoL+tz0XYxNPSV7oE7HBVWORZ65Og6hrREQzreN6ozw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAJVRA1TbbVJ-88nHq0GKMhS5Z3GQ+=jCqv2E49FS=4L2+xQeFg@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAJVRA1SmqVnWdic5s6f8pk_GxVZ9-hr+d+siOaTWLbtvurk23Q@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAJVRA1Q-aARB1bqZ6k1TWf=kfnSNRiKqeaCa=FAJoFK2bXjd-A@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAJVRA1QCOcWiw8jAPGHka_i1sdNVHEv-=b4_2UUYc1HAOwAcKQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAJVRA1Q63E-BGJn1ozk5sDfe9RuKNA0jhai6Lzxb63-Tq54UGQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAJVRA1QaTK0sh=j3aovAe9LrczacCKU83-msWmEoKXCW0KRuFA@mail.gmail.com>

this reply from the NRO:
  https://www.muckrock.com/foi/united-states-of-america-10/eeeieeeohorder-21368/#file-61919

is probably the most informative read on classification process i've
enjoyed in years!




From zen at freedbms.net  Sun Nov 15 04:44:40 2015
From: zen at freedbms.net (Zenaan Harkness)
Date: Sun, 15 Nov 2015 12:44:40 +0000
Subject: Will the orgy of tolerance continue?
Message-ID: <CAOsGNSRn_=Azq1We9bkFmOs1RsgUeY3ygqs-1RC+SZ-2zMkSAg@mail.gmail.com>

And so tyranny rolls on...

http://fortruss.blogspot.ru/2015/11/france-is-paying-all-its-debts-at-once.html

http://www.counterpunch.org/2015/11/13/hell-comes-to-paris/

http://www.frontpagemag.com/fpm/260785/destroy-isis-caliphate-daniel-greenfield

http://www.frontpagemag.com/point/260781/migrants-rape-girl-swedish-school-officials-blame-daniel-greenfield

I say we "western"ites are indoctrinated to tolerate, to turn the
other cheek, and that this nature of the majority in our "Christian
umbrella" western societies has been thoroughly abused.

We are programmed to tolerate those who do not tolerate us, and tell
us they do not tolerate us, tell us they will kill us, then as
happens, they execute on their plans for execution, jihad, terrorism.

We are so fragile we cry bully for "safe spaces" such as entire
universities, where our particular ('minority') viewpoints are the
only ones that are allowed to be spoken or published by other students
in posters.

We are so lacking in conscience and incompetent to determine what is
right and what is wrong that we must be completely disarmed and the
use of deadly force only to ever be accessible to government-appointed
officers who "keep the peace" and "protect the innocent," as if police
can ever protect an innocent schoolgirl from rape before the fact, or
innocent theater goers from murder at gunpoint - hostages are not
needed by Islam.

So bring on the silver lining of the hope of a raise in awareness to
the point of action by Joe and Jane sixpack as their hearts are ripped
apart by death and extreme abuse of their near and dear ones, if not
themselves - perhaps one day humans will rise and start living their
inalienable rights to protect and feed their own family, come threats,
intimidation or even jail. Should thousands rise in such a ways, the
political landscape will certainly change.

One can only hope,
Zenaan




From coderman at gmail.com  Sun Nov 15 13:16:44 2015
From: coderman at gmail.com (coderman)
Date: Sun, 15 Nov 2015 13:16:44 -0800
Subject: FCC comes to CCC? "No GSM test network at 32C3"
Message-ID: <CAJVRA1TbBrdcyVquLpmPSh8s=-8tMZxe_P7MLZy1By5RNUQ6rA@mail.gmail.com>

http://laforge.gnumonks.org/blog/20151115-no_gsm_at_32c3/

No GSM test network at 32C3

Harald Welte

2015-11-15

I currently don't assume that there will be a GSM network at the 32C3.

Ever since OpenBSC was created in 2008, the annual CCC congress was a
great opportunity to test OpenBSC and related software with thousands
of willing participants. In order to do so, we obtained a test licence
from the German regulatory authority. This was never any problem, as
there was a chunk of spectrum in the 1800 MHz GSM band that was not
allocated to any commercial operator, the so-called DECT guard band.
It's called that way as it was kept free in order to ensure there is
no interference between 1800 MHz GSM and the neighboring DECT cordless
telephones.

Over the decades, it was determined on a EU level that this guard band
might not be necessary, or at least not if certain considerations are
taken for BTSs deployed in that band.

When the German regulatory authority re-auctioned the GSM spectrum
earlier this year, they decided to also auction the frequencies of the
former DECT guard band. The DECT guard band was awarded to Vodafone.

This is a pity, as this means that people involved with cellular
research or development of cellular technology now have it
significantly harder to actually test their systems.

In some other EU member states it is easier, like in the Netherlands
or the UK, where the DECT guard band was not treated like any other
chunk of the GSM bands, but put under special rules. Not so in
Germany.

To make a long story short: Without the explicit permission of any of
the commercial mobile operators, it is not possible to run a
test/experimental network like we used to ran at the annual CCC
congress.

Given that

    the event is held in the city center (where frequencies are
typically used and re-used quite densely), and
    an operator has nothing to gain from permitting us to test our
open source GSM/GPRS implementations,

I think there is little chance that this will become a reality.

If anyone has really good contacts to the radio network planning team
of a German mobile operator and wants to prove me wrong: Feel free to
contact me by e-mail.

Thanks to everyone involved with the GSM team at the CCC events,
particularly Holger Freyther, Daniel Willmann, Stefan Schmidt, Jan
Luebbe, Peter Stuge, Sylvain Munaut, Kevin Redon, Andreas Eversberg,
Ulli (and everyone else whom I may have forgot, my apologies). It's
been a pleasure!

Thanks also to our friends at the POC (Phone Operation Center) who
have provided interfacing to the DECT, ISDN, analog and VoIP network
at the events. Thanks to roh for helping with our special patch
requests. Thanks also to those entities and people who borrowed
equipment (like BTSs) in the pre-sysmocom years.

So long, and thanks for all the fish!




From juan.g71 at gmail.com  Sun Nov 15 11:11:11 2015
From: juan.g71 at gmail.com (juan)
Date: Sun, 15 Nov 2015 16:11:11 -0300
Subject: Google's TensorFlow AI Engine... More Power Tools [For Power?]
In-Reply-To: <64DF4F5B-5046-4AB7-907C-BDDD25732493@openmailbox.org>
References: <20151114032504.CD07EA0701C@palinka.tinho.net>
 <32713821-D718-487C-AF74-64F00DBEEABE@openmailbox.org>
 <5646e345.972a370a.10dff.6430@mx.google.com>
 <64DF4F5B-5046-4AB7-907C-BDDD25732493@openmailbox.org>
Message-ID: <5648d722.c7d98c0a.21d5.ffffe868@mx.google.com>

On Sat, 14 Nov 2015 08:35:07 +0000
oshwm <oshwm at openmailbox.org> wrote:

> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
> Hash: SHA512
> 
> You have to ensure you don't expect more from a tool than the cover
> it can provide - it serves its purpose of avoiding ISP logging for
> now :)


	True that.


> 
> On 14 November 2015 07:38:17 GMT+00:00, juan <juan.g71 at gmail.com>
> wrote:
> >On Sat, 14 Nov 2015 07:04:15 +0000
> >oshwm <oshwm at openmailbox.org> wrote:
> >
> >> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
> >> Hash: SHA512
> >>
> >> The other day I had to use a real bricks and mortar high street
> >> store to buy printer ink because the online shops I was going to
> >> use all blocked Tor exit nodes :(
> >
> >
> >	Good. The tor scam may be reaching +the end of its shell
> >	life.
> >
> >




From juan.g71 at gmail.com  Sun Nov 15 12:14:05 2015
From: juan.g71 at gmail.com (juan)
Date: Sun, 15 Nov 2015 17:14:05 -0300
Subject: pervasive opportunistic encryption of voice and text communication
In-Reply-To: <CAJVRA1SYTX1t4aXudNCx=Yr=MqBF8RcOVniDfJ08mg3RhTXV_Q@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAOsGNSSaOyy7iHW1hENh9b_kmd7CVNis6v=CNh259vW3Df07WQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAJVRA1SYTX1t4aXudNCx=Yr=MqBF8RcOVniDfJ08mg3RhTXV_Q@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <5648e5e0.5551370a.58cdc.fffff498@mx.google.com>

On Sun, 15 Nov 2015 10:56:58 -0800
coderman <coderman at gmail.com> wrote:

> On 11/14/15, Zenaan Harkness <zen at freedbms.net> wrote:
> > I think RedPhone / Open Whisper Systems is a start to what we might
> > achieve as a "base" level of privacy for "most people"...
> 
> moxie makes compromises (by playing within the Apple/GOOG system)

	
	not only that, but the 'architecture' is just ordinary
	client/server? 

> 
> we should do better!




From oshwm at openmailbox.org  Sun Nov 15 12:01:04 2015
From: oshwm at openmailbox.org (oshwm)
Date: Sun, 15 Nov 2015 20:01:04 +0000
Subject: pervasive opportunistic encryption of voice and text communication
In-Reply-To: <CAJVRA1SYTX1t4aXudNCx=Yr=MqBF8RcOVniDfJ08mg3RhTXV_Q@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAOsGNSSaOyy7iHW1hENh9b_kmd7CVNis6v=CNh259vW3Df07WQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAJVRA1SYTX1t4aXudNCx=Yr=MqBF8RcOVniDfJ08mg3RhTXV_Q@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <5648E480.2040809@openmailbox.org>

Signal (as I think its now called) wants your phone number and does SMS
verification for sign up.
I haven't used it so am not sure how this process works or occurs but
doesn't sound very privacy enhancing to me.


On 15/11/15 18:56, coderman wrote:
> On 11/14/15, Zenaan Harkness <zen at freedbms.net> wrote:
>> I think RedPhone / Open Whisper Systems is a start to what we might
>> achieve as a "base" level of privacy for "most people"...
> 
> moxie makes compromises (by playing within the Apple/GOOG system)
> 
> we should do better!
> 

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From oshwm at openmailbox.org  Sun Nov 15 13:39:23 2015
From: oshwm at openmailbox.org (oshwm)
Date: Sun, 15 Nov 2015 21:39:23 +0000
Subject: FCC comes to CCC? "No GSM test network at 32C3"
In-Reply-To: <CAJVRA1TbBrdcyVquLpmPSh8s=-8tMZxe_P7MLZy1By5RNUQ6rA@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAJVRA1TbBrdcyVquLpmPSh8s=-8tMZxe_P7MLZy1By5RNUQ6rA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <5648FB8B.6000300@openmailbox.org>

These boys and girls should probably approach Vodafone.
I wouldn't be surprised that if Vodafone isn't using the frequency range
or its not particularly congested they might allow its use.

They are a funny bunch, Vodafone, and despite some 'difficult' business
practices can sometimes be helpful :)


On 15/11/15 21:16, coderman wrote:
> http://laforge.gnumonks.org/blog/20151115-no_gsm_at_32c3/
> 
> No GSM test network at 32C3
> 
> Harald Welte
> 
> 2015-11-15
> 
> I currently don't assume that there will be a GSM network at the 32C3.
> 
> Ever since OpenBSC was created in 2008, the annual CCC congress was a
> great opportunity to test OpenBSC and related software with thousands
> of willing participants. In order to do so, we obtained a test licence
> from the German regulatory authority. This was never any problem, as
> there was a chunk of spectrum in the 1800 MHz GSM band that was not
> allocated to any commercial operator, the so-called DECT guard band.
> It's called that way as it was kept free in order to ensure there is
> no interference between 1800 MHz GSM and the neighboring DECT cordless
> telephones.
> 
> Over the decades, it was determined on a EU level that this guard band
> might not be necessary, or at least not if certain considerations are
> taken for BTSs deployed in that band.
> 
> When the German regulatory authority re-auctioned the GSM spectrum
> earlier this year, they decided to also auction the frequencies of the
> former DECT guard band. The DECT guard band was awarded to Vodafone.
> 
> This is a pity, as this means that people involved with cellular
> research or development of cellular technology now have it
> significantly harder to actually test their systems.
> 
> In some other EU member states it is easier, like in the Netherlands
> or the UK, where the DECT guard band was not treated like any other
> chunk of the GSM bands, but put under special rules. Not so in
> Germany.
> 
> To make a long story short: Without the explicit permission of any of
> the commercial mobile operators, it is not possible to run a
> test/experimental network like we used to ran at the annual CCC
> congress.
> 
> Given that
> 
>     the event is held in the city center (where frequencies are
> typically used and re-used quite densely), and
>     an operator has nothing to gain from permitting us to test our
> open source GSM/GPRS implementations,
> 
> I think there is little chance that this will become a reality.
> 
> If anyone has really good contacts to the radio network planning team
> of a German mobile operator and wants to prove me wrong: Feel free to
> contact me by e-mail.
> 
> Thanks to everyone involved with the GSM team at the CCC events,
> particularly Holger Freyther, Daniel Willmann, Stefan Schmidt, Jan
> Luebbe, Peter Stuge, Sylvain Munaut, Kevin Redon, Andreas Eversberg,
> Ulli (and everyone else whom I may have forgot, my apologies). It's
> been a pleasure!
> 
> Thanks also to our friends at the POC (Phone Operation Center) who
> have provided interfacing to the DECT, ISDN, analog and VoIP network
> at the events. Thanks to roh for helping with our special patch
> requests. Thanks also to those entities and people who borrowed
> equipment (like BTSs) in the pre-sysmocom years.
> 
> So long, and thanks for all the fish!
> 

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From zen at freedbms.net  Sun Nov 15 15:57:05 2015
From: zen at freedbms.net (Zenaan Harkness)
Date: Sun, 15 Nov 2015 23:57:05 +0000
Subject: Will the orgy of tolerance continue?
In-Reply-To: <CAOsGNSRn_=Azq1We9bkFmOs1RsgUeY3ygqs-1RC+SZ-2zMkSAg@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAOsGNSRn_=Azq1We9bkFmOs1RsgUeY3ygqs-1RC+SZ-2zMkSAg@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAOsGNSSYhBMfhxbbWmrSmqF1M15ifiehg60SHZ7Tu=fUqQFA8w@mail.gmail.com>

A perspective with some thought put into current events which may be
of interest:

On Sun, Nov 15, 2015 at 12:18 PM, Robin Turner <boldsirrobin at gmail.com> wrote:
> http://solri.livejournal.com/482300.html
>
> Sir Robin




From coderman at gmail.com  Mon Nov 16 01:02:41 2015
From: coderman at gmail.com (coderman)
Date: Mon, 16 Nov 2015 01:02:41 -0800
Subject: OT: Is the US worthy of International Respect anymore?
In-Reply-To: <CAD2Ti29A=b_e-ZgrJ_iaLLMw-sQ15aqu5ZV_O8BN_Jw2DQDNMQ@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAD2Ti29A=b_e-ZgrJ_iaLLMw-sQ15aqu5ZV_O8BN_Jw2DQDNMQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAJVRA1Sy4=UpK9Nsvxca8ikY2JX9EzTvAqN-PY9b7fZ28V6ong@mail.gmail.com>

yes.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=11Nq6PzY0xA

Baby's got an atom bomb
A motherfcuking atom bomb
Twenty two megaton
You've never seen so much fun

Baby got a poison gas
Baby got a heart attacks
Baby got a pain on tap
Baby gimme some of that

Baby got a Nobel prize
Given for the perfect crime
Baby got an alibi
Baby got eight more lives

Baby got a satellite
Baby got second sight
Baby got a masterplan
A foolproof master plan

Baby got purple hair
Baby got a secret lair
Baby got an army there
I ain't ever seen baby scared

Baby got a crystal ball
Baby doesn't care at all
Baby's having too much fun
Baby got an atom bomb

Baby got a fleet at sea
And a submarine called Emergency
She got a motorcade
She got a monorail
Going coast to coast on a campaign trail
Playing deck of cards in an armored car
She got a kung-fu star as a bodyguard
She got a juju charm
She got a magic spell
She got a genie all three is working well
She got a TV show
She got a shopping mall
She got a miracle, she doesn't want at all
She got a monument at a great expense
She got a head of state and a president
She got destiny, she got supremacy
She got everything from A - Z
She got it all down tight, she got nothing wrong
She got the whole wide world singing baby's song




From coderman at gmail.com  Mon Nov 16 01:10:44 2015
From: coderman at gmail.com (coderman)
Date: Mon, 16 Nov 2015 01:10:44 -0800
Subject: OT: Is the US worthy of International Respect anymore?
In-Reply-To: <CAJVRA1Sy4=UpK9Nsvxca8ikY2JX9EzTvAqN-PY9b7fZ28V6ong@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAD2Ti29A=b_e-ZgrJ_iaLLMw-sQ15aqu5ZV_O8BN_Jw2DQDNMQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAJVRA1Sy4=UpK9Nsvxca8ikY2JX9EzTvAqN-PY9b7fZ28V6ong@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAJVRA1RzS-7uSzTOROBR5jnABCBTnUd0KvJ5Bx4fLJE7Bhh2jQ@mail.gmail.com>

On 11/16/15, coderman <coderman at gmail.com> wrote:
>...
> She got the whole wide world singing baby's song


respect in the dangerous sense,
  not respect in the "admirable and worthy of emulation" sense.




From grarpamp at gmail.com  Sun Nov 15 22:51:53 2015
From: grarpamp at gmail.com (grarpamp)
Date: Mon, 16 Nov 2015 01:51:53 -0500
Subject: FOIPA adventures
Message-ID: <CAD2Ti29y6Rrg8j-CkN=Bwf7e_ETYa08dvmxs9f3Z=_E7zZe2Qw@mail.gmail.com>

Don't know what you're looking for,
but every query is one step closer.
The mark of a true cpunk. Thanks.




From grarpamp at gmail.com  Sun Nov 15 23:05:53 2015
From: grarpamp at gmail.com (grarpamp)
Date: Mon, 16 Nov 2015 02:05:53 -0500
Subject: Pride and Legacy Thinking is a Tired Old Bitch
In-Reply-To: <56484B0B.9010704@openmailbox.org>
References: <CAD2Ti29CEc0EPV+aBpvnzmF8f0bWRSDKZAfiGR-F2ef538HnvQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <56484B0B.9010704@openmailbox.org>
Message-ID: <CAD2Ti29munp1kxXVET+y6nyBx97iB3iXdGPROPZPRyLJfqtqfg@mail.gmail.com>

On Sun, Nov 15, 2015 at 4:06 AM, oshwm <oshwm at openmailbox.org> wrote:
You rightly and smoothly integrated crypto into every existing app
so that people can use crypto. As with my Apple comment, that's
respectable, I believe smooth integration is possible such that it
ends up being used without much thought. So that's cool, and
attaiinable.

But note the fatal error: "into every *existing* app".
There is no practical threat against crypto itself.
However we have serious threats to the privacy
once thought achievable with crypto alone...
rooted in the protocols and centralization of every *existing* app.
So privacy is now unsolvable with them still in the picture, no
matter what crypto you throw at it or how you throw it.

And if you integrate crypto into them as they exist
today, you become fucked forever [1]... because you've
just now given sheep the crypto they subliminally want in the back
of their head, and thus to them the problem is solved. But we know
it's not. It doesn't cover metadata nor misplace of trust in central
authority.

I say you must say fuck the current apps and hold
out the crypto integration for better replacements
that address those issues as well.

Otherwise it's still a soggy sandwich.

The question is perhaps, central or decentral.
I believe that with the right approach,cpunks can make decentral a
mass market win.

[1] As in: "Now that we have IPv6, it's going to last a
hell of a long time."




From coderman at gmail.com  Mon Nov 16 02:13:22 2015
From: coderman at gmail.com (coderman)
Date: Mon, 16 Nov 2015 02:13:22 -0800
Subject: FOIPA adventures
In-Reply-To: <CAJVRA1QaTK0sh=j3aovAe9LrczacCKU83-msWmEoKXCW0KRuFA@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAJVRA1SaJpNaPQx=s_7VVM==ony2sH0aUG3w11cjNX6escSm8w@mail.gmail.com>
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 <CAJVRA1QaTK0sh=j3aovAe9LrczacCKU83-msWmEoKXCW0KRuFA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAJVRA1T=RK7rdUdwPZJj5UkLiGsEh8_7HcrkrLf8qTUkSAfp4w@mail.gmail.com>

new request:
'''
A list of all "Experimental Radio Licenses" granted for the years 2010
through 2015, inclusive. Please include any "Special Conditions" with
each identified license. Please include "Program Experimental
Licenses" as well as "Conventional Experimental Licenses" when
considering records responsive to this request.
'''
 - https://www.muckrock.com/foi/united-states-of-america-10/experimentalwavesradio-22404/




From grarpamp at gmail.com  Sun Nov 15 23:27:18 2015
From: grarpamp at gmail.com (grarpamp)
Date: Mon, 16 Nov 2015 02:27:18 -0500
Subject: pervasive opportunistic encryption of voice and text communication
In-Reply-To: <5648E480.2040809@openmailbox.org>
References: <CAOsGNSSaOyy7iHW1hENh9b_kmd7CVNis6v=CNh259vW3Df07WQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAJVRA1SYTX1t4aXudNCx=Yr=MqBF8RcOVniDfJ08mg3RhTXV_Q@mail.gmail.com>
 <5648E480.2040809@openmailbox.org>
Message-ID: <CAD2Ti28Wpo9JhETgF6x9ZXD6cE7ZLxqCj6XDkK6+s6Ck2Ux5gA@mail.gmail.com>

On Sun, Nov 15, 2015 at 3:01 PM, oshwm <oshwm at openmailbox.org> wrote:
> Signal (as I think its now called) wants your phone number and does SMS
> verification for sign up.

I think it is a question of responsibility.
If you eschew responsibility, fuck it, give youself the nanny state
and what you asked for.
But if you have any shred of responsibility, then place that upon you.
Do you want HOTP/TOTP, or do you want nanny SMS?
That is the question.
I believe that even Johnny is educatable to these things,
and I wish to do that.
Do you?




From coderman at gmail.com  Mon Nov 16 02:41:54 2015
From: coderman at gmail.com (coderman)
Date: Mon, 16 Nov 2015 02:41:54 -0800
Subject: FOIPA adventures
In-Reply-To: <CAJVRA1T=RK7rdUdwPZJj5UkLiGsEh8_7HcrkrLf8qTUkSAfp4w@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAJVRA1SaJpNaPQx=s_7VVM==ony2sH0aUG3w11cjNX6escSm8w@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAJVRA1TUfu40206TOzK2kBsgCvbgBYYXmyKZ3E5n4KQuoEtZyg@mail.gmail.com>
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 <CAJVRA1Q63E-BGJn1ozk5sDfe9RuKNA0jhai6Lzxb63-Tq54UGQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAJVRA1QaTK0sh=j3aovAe9LrczacCKU83-msWmEoKXCW0KRuFA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAJVRA1T=RK7rdUdwPZJj5UkLiGsEh8_7HcrkrLf8qTUkSAfp4w@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAJVRA1QjRsJNGTPJ99T=-faEnmFH5rZaCL03yDYY0RLnZoVJ=Q@mail.gmail.com>

last one for this month:
'''
Reports of deployment / use of the US Secret Service Presidential
RF-countermeasures Suburban during escort of POTUS or any other active
use. Maryland License Plate: 05567M6 as example vehicle in class
"RF-countermeasures Suburban". Please include incident reports
utilizing special RF countermeasure technologies in response to
perceived or senses threats. Please include records for years 2008
through 2015, inclusive. See also
https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/b/b4/President%27s_motorcade_rear_view.jpg
for additional information relevant to this request.
'''
 - https://www.muckrock.com/foi/united-states-of-america-10/radioactivitydenied-22405/




From grarpamp at gmail.com  Sun Nov 15 23:46:26 2015
From: grarpamp at gmail.com (grarpamp)
Date: Mon, 16 Nov 2015 02:46:26 -0500
Subject: Open Fabs
In-Reply-To: <CAD2Ti28k_AGdJAX_7HbpJhh+Lcv=64pt2-ZQaeRtA1shR2cNaA@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAD2Ti28k_AGdJAX_7HbpJhh+Lcv=64pt2-ZQaeRtA1shR2cNaA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAD2Ti28oO=4dvM7oXhto_Y4N+zh-SAJs8KGNwx=GMyF00=P7eg@mail.gmail.com>

Yes it would be interesting to see what the various
supposed open fabs would present as their
operating principles, auditing and process flow and
governing bylaws. It really is a completly new space
open for whoever wants to take it up. I think the
market is ripe for open and profitable entrants.




From grarpamp at gmail.com  Sun Nov 15 23:52:49 2015
From: grarpamp at gmail.com (grarpamp)
Date: Mon, 16 Nov 2015 02:52:49 -0500
Subject: [Cryptography] Satoshi's PGP key.
In-Reply-To: <CAMm+LwgfX3bnk0zuTnKx4Oysua=3BsusyZ3ByJ1vdct=zVHmKg@mail.gmail.com>
References: <564818D1.8040907@sonic.net>
 <r422Ps-1075i-B763647C67AA4C6A8E87BBC836315AC0@Williams-MacBook-Pro.local>
 <CAMm+LwgfX3bnk0zuTnKx4Oysua=3BsusyZ3ByJ1vdct=zVHmKg@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAD2Ti29kEi5RhJsW6MdWQR5uZXjLQJvucMr66JnMxUrJ96pcsg@mail.gmail.com>

Is not the mark of Satoshi the crypto [private] key of the
genesis block, to which all other supposed GPG keys
are functionally subservient?




From grarpamp at gmail.com  Mon Nov 16 00:00:26 2015
From: grarpamp at gmail.com (grarpamp)
Date: Mon, 16 Nov 2015 03:00:26 -0500
Subject: OT: Is the US worthy of International Respect anymore?
Message-ID: <CAD2Ti29A=b_e-ZgrJ_iaLLMw-sQ15aqu5ZV_O8BN_Jw2DQDNMQ@mail.gmail.com>

Just curious...
And completely OT to whatever degree it matters...
Do not feel obligated to reply, even within the bound
of crypto[politics].




From coderman at gmail.com  Mon Nov 16 03:28:07 2015
From: coderman at gmail.com (coderman)
Date: Mon, 16 Nov 2015 03:28:07 -0800
Subject: FOIA MuckRock API
In-Reply-To: <CAH7N8YkDsinpLqhPNQLL4H6+R2nBLEcobHdXaz7gOXzLJg18Xw@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CANFTA09DM+O8ZQb2fxdCUer8h=0aQ0btUAwU6m+7wUdbeNyGLg@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAJVRA1TuoZvLnhLrQuomqks0WHjzn7cnsZi+BQ+5F=ns=F=ECQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAJVRA1R6YjHD9uHTLedmNBBRuDTYxVrQrZ1LU=t3io2J2gU4MQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAH7N8Y=r96XSbD+T=YrJ-4YkmAoH80_FrpHuoeVMFA3i2YE1mg@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAJVRA1TDT-h_sN4vvDDX_OekK05Kd6ZCN6pMfWHQV--35u6xpw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAH7N8YkDsinpLqhPNQLL4H6+R2nBLEcobHdXaz7gOXzLJg18Xw@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAJVRA1Q2YyGHS=i7gJ=4Z69Co7HyAL2aRfKDaZsR60Fx6q8TkA@mail.gmail.com>

On 11/10/15, Michael Morisy <m at morisy.com> wrote:
> I'm using 2.7.8. Mitch apparently made some improvements to the API,
> so not sure if that made a difference, haven't had time to try it
> lately.

the best Mike: have you tried this again recently?

i was able to sorta-repro if network was spotty and a large document
failed during transfer, but otherwise this works solid for me.

still catching up, including pending improvements to script behavior.
more soon...


best regards,




From oshwm at openmailbox.org  Mon Nov 16 01:21:13 2015
From: oshwm at openmailbox.org (oshwm)
Date: Mon, 16 Nov 2015 09:21:13 +0000
Subject: OT: Is the US worthy of International Respect anymore?
In-Reply-To: <CAJVRA1RzS-7uSzTOROBR5jnABCBTnUd0KvJ5Bx4fLJE7Bhh2jQ@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAD2Ti29A=b_e-ZgrJ_iaLLMw-sQ15aqu5ZV_O8BN_Jw2DQDNMQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAJVRA1Sy4=UpK9Nsvxca8ikY2JX9EzTvAqN-PY9b7fZ28V6ong@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAJVRA1RzS-7uSzTOROBR5jnABCBTnUd0KvJ5Bx4fLJE7Bhh2jQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <F5EF0D3C-BEBA-497D-8E94-B642D66723B4@openmailbox.org>

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA512

Fear != respect :)

On 16 November 2015 09:10:44 GMT+00:00, coderman <coderman at gmail.com> wrote:
>On 11/16/15, coderman <coderman at gmail.com> wrote:
>>...
>> She got the whole wide world singing baby's song
>
>
>respect in the dangerous sense,
>  not respect in the "admirable and worthy of emulation" sense.
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Version: APG v1.1.1

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From jason.mcvetta at gmail.com  Mon Nov 16 11:36:07 2015
From: jason.mcvetta at gmail.com (Jason McVetta)
Date: Mon, 16 Nov 2015 11:36:07 -0800
Subject: Right is the Might of the Community (theatre, Berlin)
In-Reply-To: <564A0892.5040006@squimp.com>
References: <564A0892.5040006@squimp.com>
Message-ID: <CAN9H=iKcVQcyRiZRKBiy9NkVTi51dn5daqEY7H-FmsppmkEq2w@mail.gmail.com>

FWIW, opening that link in Firefox on Android caused some blinky display
errors and a sudden reboot of the phone.  That behavior seemed weird enough
to warrant an immediate factory reset of the phone OS.  Maybe I'm
excessively paranoid, but I would recommend using prophylactic measures
when opening that link.

On Mon, Nov 16, 2015 at 8:47 AM, Nathan Andrew Fain <nathan at squimp.com>
wrote:

> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
> Hash: SHA1
>
> Perhaps of interest...
> a lecture performance with a character that believes in absolute
> democracy through decentralized technology, assassination politics,
> with a dash of male psychology and neurophilia for inspiration. This
> weekend at Hebbel Am Ufer in berlin, if interested (nov 21,22).
>
> http://rightisthe.mightofthe.community
>
> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
> Version: GnuPG v1
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> chUAn14UGsNKSTTemuWz2ajOa25rltud
> =k0U3
> -----END PGP SIGNATURE-----
>
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From drwho at virtadpt.net  Mon Nov 16 12:34:00 2015
From: drwho at virtadpt.net (The Doctor)
Date: Mon, 16 Nov 2015 12:34:00 -0800
Subject: [FORGED] Re: [FORGED] Re: UK To Ban Crypto In Devices, Email
 And More
In-Reply-To: <56470A23.10809@openmailbox.org>
References: <CAD2Ti29w4u9RMOt_gRvWe-vYo_So4R4XyfOYJcqEe_XzPGAL4A@mail.gmail.com>
 <564112FC.9030507@gmail.com> <56411817.3070505@openmailbox.org>
 <7425859.RnpuZD1ro8@lapuntu> <56470A23.10809@openmailbox.org>
Message-ID: <20151116123400.b06a63484c53118a25171f0c@virtadpt.net>

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA512

On Sat, 14 Nov 2015 10:17:07 +0000
oshwm <oshwm at openmailbox.org> wrote:

> The private key is stored by your email provider but protected with your
> mail account password (not perfect but simple).

http://gizmodo.com/the-25-most-popular-passwords-of-2014-were-all-doomed-1680596951

Yay.

> let me know once you're done implementing it :D

You might find this interesting:

https://github.com/uakfdotb/gpg-mailgate/

- -- 
The Doctor [412/724/301/703/415] [ZS]

PGP: 0x807B17C1 / 7960 1CDC 85C9 0B63 8D9F  DD89 3BD8 FF2B 807B 17C1
WWW: https://drwho.virtadpt.net/

"We don't care, we don't have to.. we're the phone company."

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From themikebest at gmail.com  Mon Nov 16 10:27:35 2015
From: themikebest at gmail.com (Michael Best)
Date: Mon, 16 Nov 2015 13:27:35 -0500
Subject: FOIA MuckRock API
In-Reply-To: <CAJVRA1Q2YyGHS=i7gJ=4Z69Co7HyAL2aRfKDaZsR60Fx6q8TkA@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CANFTA09DM+O8ZQb2fxdCUer8h=0aQ0btUAwU6m+7wUdbeNyGLg@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAJVRA1TuoZvLnhLrQuomqks0WHjzn7cnsZi+BQ+5F=ns=F=ECQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAJVRA1R6YjHD9uHTLedmNBBRuDTYxVrQrZ1LU=t3io2J2gU4MQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAH7N8Y=r96XSbD+T=YrJ-4YkmAoH80_FrpHuoeVMFA3i2YE1mg@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAJVRA1TDT-h_sN4vvDDX_OekK05Kd6ZCN6pMfWHQV--35u6xpw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAH7N8YkDsinpLqhPNQLL4H6+R2nBLEcobHdXaz7gOXzLJg18Xw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAJVRA1Q2YyGHS=i7gJ=4Z69Co7HyAL2aRfKDaZsR60Fx6q8TkA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CANFTA08XetXWUpRwv+bfvCicdfwU+BEVCNu1tGKewJzzYEmBCA@mail.gmail.com>

Unfortunately, I'm too thick to get it to work without a detailed readme
file or human equivalent to hold my hand. I'd hoped that my long unused
programming experience would be enough, but it seems like those skills have
almost completely atrophied away. (I'm gifted in other ways ;-)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qXrQA-x1cbU)

On Mon, Nov 16, 2015 at 6:28 AM, coderman <coderman at gmail.com> wrote:

> the best Mike: have you tried this again recently?
>
> i was able to sorta-repro if network was spotty and a large document
> failed during transfer, but otherwise this works solid for me.
>
> still catching up, including pending improvements to script behavior.
> more soon...
>


coderman
>>
>> 6:28 AM (6 hours ago)
>> to me, cpunks
>> On 11/10/15, Michael Morisy <m at morisy.com> wrote:
>> > I'm using 2.7.8. Mitch apparently made some improvements to the API,
>> > so not sure if that made a difference, haven't had time to try it
>> > lately.
>> the best Mike: have you tried this again recently?
>> i was able to sorta-repro if network was spotty and a large document
>> failed during transfer, but otherwise this works solid for me.
>> still catching up, including pending improvements to script behavior.
>> more soon...
>> best regards,
>>
>>
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From coderman at gmail.com  Mon Nov 16 13:41:42 2015
From: coderman at gmail.com (coderman)
Date: Mon, 16 Nov 2015 13:41:42 -0800
Subject: FCC comes to CCC? "No GSM test network at 32C3"
In-Reply-To: <2103982.ATCdq4UpEd@lapuntu>
References: <CAJVRA1TbBrdcyVquLpmPSh8s=-8tMZxe_P7MLZy1By5RNUQ6rA@mail.gmail.com>
 <5648FB8B.6000300@openmailbox.org> <2103982.ATCdq4UpEd@lapuntu>
Message-ID: <CAJVRA1QPWUQ7rZ5AxD+YjDWNCRvn1CU_D2B1ePnU_drOjfTAdQ@mail.gmail.com>

On 11/16/15, rysiek <rysiek at hackerspace.pl> wrote:
> ...
>> They are a funny bunch, Vodafone, and despite some 'difficult' business
>> practices can sometimes be helpful :)
>
> Indeed:
> http://laforge.gnumonks.org/blog/20151116-gsm_at_32c3/


happy ending!
 (never see this from FCC :)




From nathan at squimp.com  Mon Nov 16 08:47:14 2015
From: nathan at squimp.com (Nathan Andrew Fain)
Date: Mon, 16 Nov 2015 17:47:14 +0100
Subject: Right is the Might of the Community (theatre, Berlin)
Message-ID: <564A0892.5040006@squimp.com>

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1

Perhaps of interest...
a lecture performance with a character that believes in absolute
democracy through decentralized technology, assassination politics,
with a dash of male psychology and neurophilia for inspiration. This
weekend at Hebbel Am Ufer in berlin, if interested (nov 21,22).

http://rightisthe.mightofthe.community

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chUAn14UGsNKSTTemuWz2ajOa25rltud
=k0U3
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----




From jdb10987 at yahoo.com  Mon Nov 16 11:15:21 2015
From: jdb10987 at yahoo.com (jim bell)
Date: Mon, 16 Nov 2015 19:15:21 +0000 (UTC)
Subject: Right is the Might of the Community (theatre, Berlin)
In-Reply-To: <564A0892.5040006@squimp.com>
References: <564A0892.5040006@squimp.com>
Message-ID: <947085031.5752000.1447701321923.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com>

  From: Nathan Andrew Fain <nathan at squimp.com>

>Perhaps of interest...
>a lecture performance with a character that believes in absolute
>democracy through decentralized technology, assassination politics,
>with a dash of male psychology and neurophilia for inspiration. This
>weekend at Hebbel Am Ufer in berlin, if interested (nov 21,22).>    http://rightisthe.mightofthe.community

Yes, I found out about this a month ago by means of a Google-search.  I hope it gets recorded and YouTube'd.
Also, don't forget about www.deathrowdemocracy.com, which is making a (hopefully) continuing show about an AP-driven society.   I hope they got it right!               Jim Bell

  
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From oshwm at openmailbox.org  Mon Nov 16 12:54:05 2015
From: oshwm at openmailbox.org (oshwm)
Date: Mon, 16 Nov 2015 20:54:05 +0000
Subject: [FORGED] Re: [FORGED] Re: UK To Ban Crypto In Devices, Email
 And More
In-Reply-To: <20151116123400.b06a63484c53118a25171f0c@virtadpt.net>
References: <CAD2Ti29w4u9RMOt_gRvWe-vYo_So4R4XyfOYJcqEe_XzPGAL4A@mail.gmail.com>
 <564112FC.9030507@gmail.com> <56411817.3070505@openmailbox.org>
 <7425859.RnpuZD1ro8@lapuntu> <56470A23.10809@openmailbox.org>
 <20151116123400.b06a63484c53118a25171f0c@virtadpt.net>
Message-ID: <564A426D.80301@openmailbox.org>



On 16/11/15 20:34, The Doctor wrote:
> On Sat, 14 Nov 2015 10:17:07 +0000
> oshwm <oshwm at openmailbox.org> wrote:
> 
>> The private key is stored by your email provider but protected with your
>> mail account password (not perfect but simple).
> 
> http://gizmodo.com/the-25-most-popular-passwords-of-2014-were-all-doomed-1680596951
> 
> Yay.
> 

As I said, "not perfect" :D

>> let me know once you're done implementing it :D
> 
> You might find this interesting:
> 
> https://github.com/uakfdotb/gpg-mailgate/
> 

Which just needs a little work from the mail providers to implement it.

So we have established that what I suggest is not unreasonable, is
workable and fatally flawed due to morons with crap passwords :)

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From oshwm at openmailbox.org  Mon Nov 16 13:29:35 2015
From: oshwm at openmailbox.org (oshwm)
Date: Mon, 16 Nov 2015 21:29:35 +0000
Subject: [FORGED] Re: [FORGED] Re: UK To Ban Crypto In Devices, Email
 And More
In-Reply-To: <1734515.PJK35Cj1Us@lapuntu>
References: <CAD2Ti29w4u9RMOt_gRvWe-vYo_So4R4XyfOYJcqEe_XzPGAL4A@mail.gmail.com>
 <7425859.RnpuZD1ro8@lapuntu> <56470A23.10809@openmailbox.org>
 <1734515.PJK35Cj1Us@lapuntu>
Message-ID: <564A4ABF.3060906@openmailbox.org>



On 16/11/15 20:57, rysiek wrote:
> Dnia sobota, 14 listopada 2015 10:17:07 oshwm pisze:
>> Ok, how about this then...
>>
>> Your idea on your blog is pretty cool but I think there is an even
>> simpler way to handle this.
>>
>> When you sign up for a new mail account, the mail provider generates a
>> public/private key pair.
> 
> This is where I stop reading.
> 

I came up with a solution to the problem posed, its far from perfect but
fits the requirements if you want perfect then we have to revisit the
bit where the sheeple need to put some effort in to learn how to use
crypto properly.
This could go round in circles forever :)

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From oshwm at openmailbox.org  Mon Nov 16 13:31:02 2015
From: oshwm at openmailbox.org (oshwm)
Date: Mon, 16 Nov 2015 21:31:02 +0000
Subject: Reaching the Sheeple, Building a Cpunk Symbiot Army
In-Reply-To: <1646063.ip4AV5UeXl@lapuntu>
References: <CAD2Ti2-M+yr5KpfGnB07ZqHnVVWbj3T_rdjzAvr3Jzz4uUL8sg@mail.gmail.com>
 <1646063.ip4AV5UeXl@lapuntu>
Message-ID: <564A4B16.9090208@openmailbox.org>



On 16/11/15 21:01, rysiek wrote:
> Dnia niedziela, 15 listopada 2015 01:53:13 grarpamp pisze:
>> Can anyone point out a successful strategy that has been used for
>> the cpunk to reach and enlighten them such that they make some sort
>> of change for themselves, or act to change their world?
> 
> Cryptoparties.
> 

Except no-one but motivated ppl go to those, the problem is one of
getting ppl to the point where they want to attend a cryptoparty :)

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From rysiek at hackerspace.pl  Mon Nov 16 12:57:23 2015
From: rysiek at hackerspace.pl (rysiek)
Date: Mon, 16 Nov 2015 21:57:23 +0100
Subject: [FORGED] Re: [FORGED] Re: UK To Ban Crypto In Devices,
 Email And More
In-Reply-To: <56470A23.10809@openmailbox.org>
References: <CAD2Ti29w4u9RMOt_gRvWe-vYo_So4R4XyfOYJcqEe_XzPGAL4A@mail.gmail.com>
 <7425859.RnpuZD1ro8@lapuntu> <56470A23.10809@openmailbox.org>
Message-ID: <1734515.PJK35Cj1Us@lapuntu>

Dnia sobota, 14 listopada 2015 10:17:07 oshwm pisze:
> Ok, how about this then...
> 
> Your idea on your blog is pretty cool but I think there is an even
> simpler way to handle this.
> 
> When you sign up for a new mail account, the mail provider generates a
> public/private key pair.

This is where I stop reading.

-- 
Pozdrawiam,
Michał "rysiek" Woźniak

Zmieniam klucz GPG :: http://rys.io/pl/147
GPG Key Transition :: http://rys.io/en/147
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From rysiek at hackerspace.pl  Mon Nov 16 13:01:34 2015
From: rysiek at hackerspace.pl (rysiek)
Date: Mon, 16 Nov 2015 22:01:34 +0100
Subject: Reaching the Sheeple, Building a Cpunk Symbiot Army
In-Reply-To: <CAD2Ti2-M+yr5KpfGnB07ZqHnVVWbj3T_rdjzAvr3Jzz4uUL8sg@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAD2Ti2-M+yr5KpfGnB07ZqHnVVWbj3T_rdjzAvr3Jzz4uUL8sg@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <1646063.ip4AV5UeXl@lapuntu>

Dnia niedziela, 15 listopada 2015 01:53:13 grarpamp pisze:
> Can anyone point out a successful strategy that has been used for
> the cpunk to reach and enlighten them such that they make some sort
> of change for themselves, or act to change their world?

Cryptoparties.

-- 
Pozdrawiam,
Michał "rysiek" Woźniak

Zmieniam klucz GPG :: http://rys.io/pl/147
GPG Key Transition :: http://rys.io/en/147
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From grarpamp at gmail.com  Mon Nov 16 19:07:07 2015
From: grarpamp at gmail.com (grarpamp)
Date: Mon, 16 Nov 2015 22:07:07 -0500
Subject: Al-Hayat Media Group (Daesh/ISIL) on the DarkWebs
Message-ID: <CAD2Ti299-biCrG7gQLzfWTbcGKuNhWj6hOZ7dFVPdqZUANKLrA@mail.gmail.com>

http://isdratetp4donyfy.onion/

While not the first time darknets have been used for such things,
expect an inrush of media queries over this one, and an influx of
new sites.

On the crypto side... an IM often purported to be used by them:
https://telegram.org/

With battles between systems taking place entirely within the
darknet, mixed with clearnet, and supposedly real world ops...
for social cause, profit, and lols...

https://twitter.com/opparisofficial
https://twitter.com/hashtag/OpParis
https://twitter.com/hashtag/OpISIS
https://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=OpParis
https://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=OpISIS
http://reportonlineterrorism.com/
http://ghostsecuritygroup.com/
https://twitter.com/GhostSecGroup
https://twitter.com/CtrlSec
https://twitter.com/KatNarv

Funding models for everyone...
http://www.dw.com/en/bitcoin-islamic-states-online-currency-venture/a-18724856




From grarpamp at gmail.com  Mon Nov 16 19:12:33 2015
From: grarpamp at gmail.com (grarpamp)
Date: Mon, 16 Nov 2015 22:12:33 -0500
Subject: Leaked Documents Confirm Polygraph Operators Can't Detect
 Countermeasures
Message-ID: <CAD2Ti291eQjakJGF4VwoAv-DSSFu934vsipg5ydty5A5shpSdQ@mail.gmail.com>

http://tech.slashdot.org/story/15/11/16/1616226/leaked-documents-confirm-polygraph-operators-cant-detect-countermeasures

George Maschke writes: AntiPolygraph.org has published a document (14
MB PDF) on polygraph countermeasures that is allegedly derived from
classified information. The document suggests techniques that
polygraph operators might use in an attempt to detect efforts to beat
the polygraph, but fails to offer any coherent strategy for detecting
sophisticated countermeasures such as those outlined in
AntiPolygraph.org's The Lie Behind the Lie Detector (1 MB PDF) or Doug
Williams' How to Sting the Polygraph. Ominously, the leaked document
avers that an examinee's stated lack of belief in polygraphy is a
marker of deception. AntiPolygraph.org has also published an older
U.S. Air Force Office of Special Investigations polygraph
countermeasure handbook (3.2 MB PDF) that similarly offers no
methodology for detecting sophisticated countermeasures (such as any
actual spy, saboteur, or terrorist might be expected to use).




From grarpamp at gmail.com  Mon Nov 16 19:14:27 2015
From: grarpamp at gmail.com (grarpamp)
Date: Mon, 16 Nov 2015 22:14:27 -0500
Subject: Recent Numbers Station Activity COLLAPSE (GnuRadio SDR)
Message-ID: <CAD2Ti2_X03uysW9CocReUScuuA-rWP+6o4eN+rWTDyEfBoLDTw@mail.gmail.com>

https://www.reddit.com/r/conspiracy/comments/3oswdt/unusual_happenings_with_inactive_radio_stations/

On SKYKING (8992 or 11175 kHz USB) a call sign called "COLLAPSE" which
has not been heard since 2001 has just broadcasted 4 messages to
numbered stations/units in the last few minutes.

"FUXEBOX" and "Reykjavik," have also broadcast in the last few days
and they haven't been heard since 1991 (collapse of the Soviet Union).

"COLLAPSE" has sent 3 messages in the last few minutes.

COLLAPSE message one: http://vocaroo.com/i/s1hGyA2GR6HI

Collapse message Two: http://vocaroo.com/i/s1ETZ3l9fp0G

Collapse message Three: http://vocaroo.com/i/s03ZI6ui70LY

Message Four from "FLATTOP!" (ANOTHER STATION NOT HEARD IN YEARS!):
http://vocaroo.com/i/s01smhgkyNDL

We do not know what these codes mean, but it considered

These are alerts to "All Stations" before the codes are sent. I did my
best to record all these but missed recording "the alert phrase" where
they said "All stations, all stations." This has all happened in the
last half hour (0230-0304 EST). I didn't record these or write this up
btw, this was a thread from 4chan that popped up on /pol/ Edit: Go
here for updates
http://www.defconwarningsystem.com/phpBB3/viewtopic.php?f=22&t=3269&start=30




From grarpamp at gmail.com  Mon Nov 16 19:20:01 2015
From: grarpamp at gmail.com (grarpamp)
Date: Mon, 16 Nov 2015 22:20:01 -0500
Subject: Reaching the Sheeple, Building a Cpunk Symbiot Army
In-Reply-To: <564A4B16.9090208@openmailbox.org>
References: <CAD2Ti2-M+yr5KpfGnB07ZqHnVVWbj3T_rdjzAvr3Jzz4uUL8sg@mail.gmail.com>
 <1646063.ip4AV5UeXl@lapuntu> <564A4B16.9090208@openmailbox.org>
Message-ID: <CAD2Ti28u_JbW3-o1BhPOhnTy2USB5W+FTErAbh41XUXP3rO7QQ@mail.gmail.com>

On Mon, Nov 16, 2015 at 4:31 PM, oshwm <oshwm at openmailbox.org> wrote:
> On 16/11/15 21:01, rysiek wrote:
>> Dnia niedziela, 15 listopada 2015 01:53:13 grarpamp pisze:
>>> Can anyone point out a successful strategy that has been used for
>>> the cpunk to reach and enlighten them such that they make some sort
>>> of change for themselves, or act to change their world?
>>
>> Cryptoparties.
>
> Except no-one but motivated ppl go to those, the problem is one of
> getting ppl to the point where they want to attend a cryptoparty :)

Agreed. You would have to hold them in sheeple's libraries or
churches and so on where they are already there as oppurtunity
to drop in the room. Not make them drive some special trip to
foreign place.




From rysiek at hackerspace.pl  Mon Nov 16 13:24:35 2015
From: rysiek at hackerspace.pl (rysiek)
Date: Mon, 16 Nov 2015 22:24:35 +0100
Subject: FCC comes to CCC? "No GSM test network at 32C3"
In-Reply-To: <5648FB8B.6000300@openmailbox.org>
References: <CAJVRA1TbBrdcyVquLpmPSh8s=-8tMZxe_P7MLZy1By5RNUQ6rA@mail.gmail.com>
 <5648FB8B.6000300@openmailbox.org>
Message-ID: <2103982.ATCdq4UpEd@lapuntu>

Dnia niedziela, 15 listopada 2015 21:39:23 oshwm pisze:
> These boys and girls should probably approach Vodafone.
> I wouldn't be surprised that if Vodafone isn't using the frequency range
> or its not particularly congested they might allow its use.
> 
> They are a funny bunch, Vodafone, and despite some 'difficult' business
> practices can sometimes be helpful :)

Indeed:
http://laforge.gnumonks.org/blog/20151116-gsm_at_32c3/

-- 
Pozdrawiam,
Michał "rysiek" Woźniak

Zmieniam klucz GPG :: http://rys.io/pl/147
GPG Key Transition :: http://rys.io/en/147
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From juan.g71 at gmail.com  Mon Nov 16 19:43:52 2015
From: juan.g71 at gmail.com (juan)
Date: Tue, 17 Nov 2015 00:43:52 -0300
Subject: Reaching the Sheeple, Building a Cpunk Symbiot Army
In-Reply-To: <CAD2Ti2-M+yr5KpfGnB07ZqHnVVWbj3T_rdjzAvr3Jzz4uUL8sg@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAD2Ti2-M+yr5KpfGnB07ZqHnVVWbj3T_rdjzAvr3Jzz4uUL8sg@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <564aa0d2.f71f8c0a.66867.ffff8ff6@mx.google.com>

On Sun, 15 Nov 2015 01:53:13 -0500
grarpamp <grarpamp at gmail.com> wrote:

> On Sat, Nov 14, 2015 at 4:53 AM, rysiek <rysiek at hackerspace.pl> wrote:
> > Dnia poniedziałek, 9 listopada 2015 22:41:16 Tomas Overdrive Petru
> > pisze:
> >> Really? So what is purpose of this thread if I can ask? To
> >> complain that ordinary people are sheep?
> >
> > I am slowly starting to think that this is the purpose of this
> > whole *list*.
> 
> Cpunk care about the sheeple, and their gripe is a legit
> frustration... sheeple seem to be biologically unreachable 


	The sheep metaphor is misleading. We are actually dealing with a
	cultural problem. 







From grarpamp at gmail.com  Mon Nov 16 22:22:13 2015
From: grarpamp at gmail.com (grarpamp)
Date: Tue, 17 Nov 2015 01:22:13 -0500
Subject: [FORGED] Re: [FORGED] Re: UK To Ban Crypto In Devices,
 Email And More
In-Reply-To: <564A426D.80301@openmailbox.org>
References: <CAD2Ti29w4u9RMOt_gRvWe-vYo_So4R4XyfOYJcqEe_XzPGAL4A@mail.gmail.com>
 <564112FC.9030507@gmail.com> <56411817.3070505@openmailbox.org>
 <7425859.RnpuZD1ro8@lapuntu> <56470A23.10809@openmailbox.org>
 <20151116123400.b06a63484c53118a25171f0c@virtadpt.net>
 <564A426D.80301@openmailbox.org>
Message-ID: <CAD2Ti29wm6+iKBtkWR+B9PBAdUJgKrVZW-1k=K6vz_Wjv596oQ@mail.gmail.com>

On Mon, Nov 16, 2015 at 3:54 PM, oshwm <oshwm at openmailbox.org> wrote:
> On 16/11/15 20:34, The Doctor wrote:
>> On Sat, 14 Nov 2015 10:17:07 +0000
>> oshwm <oshwm at openmailbox.org> wrote:
>> http://gizmodo.com/the-25-most-popular-passwords-of-2014-were-all-doomed-1680596951

>> https://github.com/uakfdotb/gpg-mailgate/
>>
>
> Which just needs a little work from the mail providers to implement it.

Instead of working to provide a nonfix to an unfixable messaging
system, I'd rather they support development of something new.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_o2djiZOxyA

> This could go round in circles forever :)

It's not circular, it's legacy, and they continue to perpetuate it.

https://cpunks.org/pipermail/cypherpunks/2015-November/010896.html




From jya at pipeline.com  Tue Nov 17 08:06:53 2015
From: jya at pipeline.com (John Young)
Date: Tue, 17 Nov 2015 11:06:53 -0500
Subject: Paris Attacks Blamed on Strong Cryptography and Edward
  Snowden
In-Reply-To: <CAEm6Kb+b9xkGf-5PSvAWULhtki6J8VqkMQPbg2zK9i8GJz=0KA@mail.g
 mail.com>
References: <CAEm6Kb+b9xkGf-5PSvAWULhtki6J8VqkMQPbg2zK9i8GJz=0KA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <E1ZyijB-0004oR-Hp@elasmtp-curtail.atl.sa.earthlink.net>

Wheedling about crypto and Snowden diverts from 
CIA Director's full speech and broader critique. CIA version omits Q&A.

<https://t.co/d6tAq2PiZi>http://csis.org/files/attachments/151116_GSF_OpeningSession.pdf

To be sure, commentators must promote their 
products to flatter their consumers as do spies, officials and
armaments (crypto) producers.

Officials buy the armaments to gain votes and 
post-service directorships, word artists blow wind to fan the flames.

"This Is War!" Perfect for all consumers except 
the slaughtered, a few of which get ritual 
mourning (most ignored, unreported, unsacrelized, unheroricized, unencrypted).

Hard to tell the difference between opportunistic 
warmongerers or anti-warmongerers, so ying and yang in complicity.

At 10:03 AM 11/17/2015, you wrote:

>1. 
><https://www.schneier.com/blog/archives/2015/11/paris_attacks_b.html>https://www.schneier.com/blog/archives/2015/11/paris_attacks_b.html
>2. 
>https://theintercept.com/2015/11/15/exploiting-emotions-about-paris-to-blame-snowden-distract-from-actual-culprits-who-empowered-isis/
>
><<As Paris reels from terrorist attacks that 
>have claimed at least 128 lives, fierce blame 
>for the carnage is being directed toward 
>American whistleblower Edward Snowden and the 
>spread of strong encryption catalyzed by his 
>actions. Now the Paris attacks are being used an excuse to demand back doors>>
>
>
><<how can “officials” and their media 
>stenographers persist in trying to convince 
>people of such a blatant, easily disproven 
>falsehood: namely, that Terrorists learned to 
>hide their communications from Snowden’s 
>revelations? They do it because of how many 
>benefits there are from swindling people to 
>believe this. To begin with, U.S officials are 
>eager here to demonize far more than just Snowden
>They want to demonize encryption generally as 
>well as any companies that offer it. Indeed, as 
>these media accounts show, they’ve been trying 
>for two decades to equate the use of encryption 
>— anything that keeps them out of people’s 
>private onlinee communications — with aiding and abetting The Terrorists>>
>
><<Above all, there’s the desperation to 
>prevent people from asking how and why ISIS was 
>able to spring up seemingly out of nowhere and 
>be so powerful, able to blow up a Russian 
>passenger plane, a market in Beirut, and the 
>streets of Paris in a single week. That’s the 
>one question Western officials are most 
>desperate not to be asked, so directing 
>people’s ire to Edward Snowden and strong 
>encryption is beneficial in the extreme>>
>
>
><<There’s the related question of how ISIS has 
>become so well-armed and powerful. There are 
>many causes, but a leading one is the role 
>played by the U.S. and its “allies in the 
>region” (i.e., Gulf tyrannies) in arming them>>
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From mirimir at riseup.net  Tue Nov 17 11:34:54 2015
From: mirimir at riseup.net (Mirimir)
Date: Tue, 17 Nov 2015 12:34:54 -0700
Subject: Paris Attacks Blamed on Strong Cryptography and Edward Snowden
In-Reply-To: <20151117172152.GA2674@sivokote.iziade.m$>
References: <CAEm6Kb+b9xkGf-5PSvAWULhtki6J8VqkMQPbg2zK9i8GJz=0KA@mail.gmail.com>
 <20151117172152.GA2674@sivokote.iziade.m$>
Message-ID: <564B815E.9000500@riseup.net>

On 11/17/2015 10:21 AM, Georgi Guninski wrote:
> On Tue, Nov 17, 2015 at 05:03:48PM +0200,  Александр  wrote:
>> 1. https://www.schneier.com/blog/archives/2015/11/paris_attacks_b.html
>> 2.
>> https://theintercept.com/2015/11/15/exploiting-emotions-about-paris-to-blame-snowden-distract-from-actual-culprits-who-empowered-isis/
>>
>> <<As Paris reels from terrorist attacks that have claimed at least 128
>> lives, fierce blame for the carnage is being directed toward American
>> whistleblower Edward Snowden and the spread of strong encryption catalyzed
>> by his actions. Now the Paris attacks are being used an excuse to demand
>> back doors>>
>>
>>
> 
> According to local media.
> 
> French sheeple gathered to protest, claiming
> "we are not afraid of terrorists".
> 
> At the protest, recreational firework went off.
> 
> Significant amount of the protesters started
> running away in panic, afraid of bombs.

Now _that_ is funny :)

> Judge for yourself about the rationality of
> sheeple.

Well, fear is rational in context. Perhaps French have forgotten what
WWII was like for them. As far as I know, they're not in range of
Pakistani nukes. But maybe Ukraine kept some that could reach them.




From grarpamp at gmail.com  Tue Nov 17 11:26:13 2015
From: grarpamp at gmail.com (grarpamp)
Date: Tue, 17 Nov 2015 14:26:13 -0500
Subject: [cryptography] Paris Attacks Blamed on Strong Cryptography and
 Edward Snowden
In-Reply-To: <E1ZyijB-0004oR-Hp@elasmtp-curtail.atl.sa.earthlink.net>
References: <CAEm6Kb+b9xkGf-5PSvAWULhtki6J8VqkMQPbg2zK9i8GJz=0KA@mail.gmail.com>
 <E1ZyijB-0004oR-Hp@elasmtp-curtail.atl.sa.earthlink.net>
Message-ID: <CAD2Ti291h0SUQjqMRctk4RcZ6-ggOWQ1XhSYsJRO=Foymm-uLw@mail.gmail.com>

On Tue, Nov 17, 2015 at 11:06 AM, John Young <jya at pipeline.com> wrote:
> Wheedling about crypto and Snowden diverts from CIA Director's full speech
> and broader critique. CIA version omits Q&A.
>
> http://csis.org/files/attachments/151116_GSF_OpeningSession.pdf

> https://www.schneier.com/blog/archives/2015/11/paris_attacks_b.html
> https://theintercept.com/2015/11/15/exploiting-emotions-about-paris-to-blame-snowden-distract-from-actual-culprits-who-empowered-isis/
>
> fierce blame for the carnage is being directed toward American
> whistleblower Edward Snowden and the spread of strong encryption catalyzed
> by his actions. Now the Paris attacks are being used an excuse to demand
> back doors

http://www.wired.com/2015/11/paris-attacks-cia-director-john-brennan-what-he-gets-wrong-about-encryption-backdoors/
DNI et al... looking and waiting for "the perfect example"... cue the
911 conspiracies...

http://techcrunch.com/2015/11/17/the-blame-game/
So let’s not be taken in by false flags flown by anonymous officials
trying to mask bad political decision-making. And let’s redouble our
efforts to fight bad policy which seeks to entrench a failed ideology
of mass surveillance — instead of focusing intelligence resources
where they are really needed

http://www.wired.com/2015/11/after-paris-encryption-will-be-a-key-issue-in-the-2016-race/

http://www.theverge.com/2015/11/16/9742182/uk-surveillance-paris-attacks
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3319037/We-spies-powers-need-says-LORD-CARLILE.html
"We MUST now give our spies the powers they need", says LORD CARLILE.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Enabling_Act_of_1933
The Enabling Act, when used ruthlessly and with authority, virtually
assured that Government could thereafter constitutionally exercise
dictatorial power without legal objection.
They offered the possibility of friendly co-operation, promising not
to threaten the Lawmakers, the President, the States or the Churches
if granted the emergency powers.

http://www.ibtimes.com/paris-terror-attack-intelligence-failure-not-snowdens-fault-break-down-communication-2185255
Intelligence Failure Is Not Snowden’s Fault But A Break Down Of
Communication and Cooperation

http://www.nytimes.com/2015/11/17/world/europe/encrypted-messaging-apps-face-new-scrutiny-over-possible-role-in-paris-attacks.html
Encrypted Messaging Apps Face New Scrutiny Over Possible Role in Paris Attacks




From grarpamp at gmail.com  Tue Nov 17 12:29:59 2015
From: grarpamp at gmail.com (grarpamp)
Date: Tue, 17 Nov 2015 15:29:59 -0500
Subject: [cryptography] Paris Attacks Blamed on Strong Cryptography and
 Edward Snowden
In-Reply-To: <564B7473.6030704@gmx.com>
References: <CAEm6Kb+b9xkGf-5PSvAWULhtki6J8VqkMQPbg2zK9i8GJz=0KA@mail.gmail.com>
 <E1ZyijB-0004oR-Hp@elasmtp-curtail.atl.sa.earthlink.net>
 <CAJp_JOHFR+0eQioRH6mW_-4k+u_GXhVuwQvPRMq6NFUzurWe2A@mail.gmail.com>
 <564B7473.6030704@gmx.com>
Message-ID: <CAD2Ti2_cXfeGH+EDRF_W-xyXax8JaGQt0MQJHAv8=FY=FXNqEQ@mail.gmail.com>

On Tue, Nov 17, 2015 at 1:39 PM, Givon Zirkind <givonne at gmx.com> wrote:
> imho, the crypto involved is not the issue.  not having boots on the ground,
> good intel, good spies who can walk and talk like the enemy, is the real
> issue.

Exactly. Governments have had at least 15 years to strap those boots,
and certainly have some good ones. These days it's probably just
as interesting as USA vs. USSR in that regard... plots, schemes,
double and triple agents... the spy game.

It's interesting what other perhaps complementary and/or parallel
forms of intel and boots have sprung up. Though best examples
are surely not seen, wrapped in closeness to government agencies
or other allegiences, and these links cover only one small theatre
among the list of things any agents, actors and mafioso have always
had an interest in... yet one can begin to get the idea... just how
deep does this sort of online game go...

https://twitter.com/TorReaper/status/661266213000073218
http://www.ghostsec.org/
http://pastebin.com/search?q=isdratetp4donyfy
https://cpunks.org/pipermail/cypherpunks/2015-November/010940.html

> there was no crypto in the false i.d. papers used to gain entry.
> there is no crypto in exploiting the humanitarian aid being given to syrian
> refugees.  these people operate in unconnected cells.  how much
> communication can there be; once an idea is hatched; a plan formed and; put
> into motion--from a few secret meetings.  esp. since they know enough to
> have to maintain radio silence.

Like volunteering for missionary, cash and a blessing at sendoff
is still a very hard problem to crack. Unless you become confidant
of both Padre and Church itself, or simply become them...

Regardless, if any of this affects your area you should definitely
have your talking points and counter solutions lined up, because
the exposure and fields of play are growing and it's not going away.
Welcome to the connected world.




From grarpamp at gmail.com  Tue Nov 17 13:22:18 2015
From: grarpamp at gmail.com (grarpamp)
Date: Tue, 17 Nov 2015 16:22:18 -0500
Subject: [Cryptography] Sadly predictable: Terrorism used as excuse to
 attack encryption
In-Reply-To: <E1ZykgU-0000h0-Pu@elasmtp-junco.atl.sa.earthlink.net>
References: <20151117111239.0fa1383d@jabberwock.cb.piermont.com>
 <E1ZykgU-0000h0-Pu@elasmtp-junco.atl.sa.earthlink.net>
Message-ID: <CAD2Ti29W5PNuUKcKQur3EgVbSbyOzP+LkwD+xVWkMD1tMK7Q0Q@mail.gmail.com>

On Tue, Nov 17, 2015 at 1:07 PM, Henry Baker <hbaker1 at pipeline.com> wrote:
> With enough fear, anything comes to look threatening: a gaming console, a toilet, a smartphone.  Will destroying them make us more or less powerful?

It makes "us" look like cowards, because you're not addressing the
source of the fear, you're taking the *apparrent* easy route, while
still leaving the source to reign. It takes courage to conquer your
fears. Grow some.




From afalex169 at gmail.com  Tue Nov 17 07:03:48 2015
From: afalex169 at gmail.com (=?UTF-8?B?INCQ0LvQtdC60YHQsNC90LTRgCA=?=)
Date: Tue, 17 Nov 2015 17:03:48 +0200
Subject: Paris Attacks Blamed on Strong Cryptography and Edward Snowden
Message-ID: <CAEm6Kb+b9xkGf-5PSvAWULhtki6J8VqkMQPbg2zK9i8GJz=0KA@mail.gmail.com>

1. https://www.schneier.com/blog/archives/2015/11/paris_attacks_b.html
2.
https://theintercept.com/2015/11/15/exploiting-emotions-about-paris-to-blame-snowden-distract-from-actual-culprits-who-empowered-isis/

<<As Paris reels from terrorist attacks that have claimed at least 128
lives, fierce blame for the carnage is being directed toward American
whistleblower Edward Snowden and the spread of strong encryption catalyzed
by his actions. Now the Paris attacks are being used an excuse to demand
back doors>>


<<how can “officials” and their media stenographers persist in trying to
convince people of such a blatant, easily disproven falsehood: namely, that
Terrorists learned to hide their communications from Snowden’s revelations?
They do it because of how many benefits there are from swindling people to
believe this. To begin with, U.S officials are eager here to demonize far
more than just Snowden
They want to demonize encryption generally as well as any companies that
offer it. Indeed, as these media accounts show, they’ve been trying for two
decades to equate the use of encryption — anything that keeps them out of
people’s private online communications — with aiding and abetting The
Terrorists>>


<<Above all, there’s the desperation to prevent people from asking how and
why ISIS was able to spring up seemingly out of nowhere and be so powerful,
able to blow up a Russian passenger plane, a market in Beirut, and the
streets of Paris in a single week. That’s the one question Western
officials are most desperate not to be asked, so directing people’s ire to
Edward Snowden and strong encryption is beneficial in the extreme>>


<<There’s the related question of how ISIS has become so well-armed and
powerful. There are many causes, but a leading one is the role played by
the U.S. and its “allies in the region” (i.e., Gulf tyrannies) in arming
them>>
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From grarpamp at gmail.com  Tue Nov 17 14:12:59 2015
From: grarpamp at gmail.com (grarpamp)
Date: Tue, 17 Nov 2015 17:12:59 -0500
Subject: [Cryptography] Sadly predictable: Terrorism used as excuse to
 attack encryption
In-Reply-To: <CAHOTMV+BfuRUbsfYFJuERskWiPS=4HhqrRFKXUJNYzrgsuvTMg@mail.gmail.com>
References: <20151117111239.0fa1383d@jabberwock.cb.piermont.com>
 <CAHOTMV+BfuRUbsfYFJuERskWiPS=4HhqrRFKXUJNYzrgsuvTMg@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAD2Ti28XqK0gzdoQ4zW35CXrRL3gKLNnOvVsoHcHUqmQ5qf8_w@mail.gmail.com>

On Tue, Nov 17, 2015 at 1:19 PM, Tony Arcieri <bascule at gmail.com> wrote:
> media accounts were already posting pictures of the Eiffel Tower along with
> "God bless you on your mission" 72 hours before the attack:
>
> http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3320732/ISIS-supporters-shared-images-Eiffel-Tower-weapons-social-media-72-hours-Paris-attack-urged-God-bless-mission.html
>
> It would be rather ironic if ISIS committed an opsec failure that bad which
> intelligence services weren't able to pick up on, and yet encryption is
> blamed anyway.

Years of news reports has shown they don't consider it
opsec failure but modus operandi. Unfortunately, absent
other specific actionable intel knowledge, even such generic
warnings picked up can't be acted on. So this is rather moot,
what are you going to do, lock down a country everytime
someone holds their fist in the air and wishes or swears...
please. Let's get back to real police work. And understand
that freedom isn't free.




From grarpamp at gmail.com  Tue Nov 17 14:42:10 2015
From: grarpamp at gmail.com (grarpamp)
Date: Tue, 17 Nov 2015 17:42:10 -0500
Subject: [Cryptography] Sadly predictable: Terrorism used as excuse to
 attack encryption
In-Reply-To: <CAO0uZ+9ztRAYWXFxGjPAQmn+YDgaiqd6hvGrX4YgP9h3R_S9Pg@mail.gmail.com>
References: <20151117111239.0fa1383d@jabberwock.cb.piermont.com>
 <CAO0uZ+9ztRAYWXFxGjPAQmn+YDgaiqd6hvGrX4YgP9h3R_S9Pg@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAD2Ti29mAvoUc-MLw8EbYTMuCYpDjCererdVQ5vQCzXLJi=NMQ@mail.gmail.com>

On Tue, Nov 17, 2015 at 12:41 PM, Miroslav Kratochvil <exa.exa at gmail.com> wrote:
> I agree with you that there should not be restrictions on encryption.
> Still, the problem is elsewhere -- we simply should not encrypt _that_
> much. (also applies to your car analogy, btw).
>
> To explain: Common people with reasonable operating systems/browsers
> are now using bulk encryption on every single HTTP request they make,
> on every single disk block they have, making SPF handshake with each
> person they IM, etc.. Observe that only a really tiny amount of the
> data is actually confidental (login tokens, business data, ...). Think
> about what bulk encryption means for the consumption of computing
> power (RSA ain't free, I'd actually expect more than gigawatts). Think
> about what it means for law-enforcement agencies -- they can't even
> simply prove that given single user is _not_ a suspect to narrow their
> search. No wonder that a politician who was assigned the task to keep
> the society secure&thriving would actually hate any kind of
> encryption. And that is a problem, because the simplest thing he can
> do is a ban.
>
> I'd prefer something less drastic before the ban comes, like forcing
> the user/software selectively choose (by some smart API or a correctly
> designed UI) what to encrypt, leaving the rest (most) of data
> "ecologic" and "law-enforcement friendly".
>
> -mk
>
>
> PS. In no way I suggest simply "turning SSL off", but there could be a
> way that just authenticates the data without doing encryption. Method
> for easily marking the "secret bits" of the stream would be cool as
> well.
>
> PS2. In no way I suggest surrendering all our information to orwellian
> big brother, but well, think of the good cops.

I'd wager that overall code and feature bloat is the far larger
consumer of electricity, especially since crypto in hardware.
Also note how if your personal electricity use has dropped but
your bill same or went up, doesn't matter what you use, they
tax you for what they want.
PKI like RSA has always been more costly than stream
like AES, so some auth and special marked stream overhead
isn't likely to save anything, because it's bloat.
Nothing says you can't log your own proof of innocence
Exhibitionists like you could even ship the footage in your
house daily to your good cops for their innocent entertainment.
Why not task yourself to keep yourself secure and thriving.
And have a good laugh about ISIS with the good cops should
they mistakenly knock once in a while about your crypto.




From juan.g71 at gmail.com  Tue Nov 17 13:02:24 2015
From: juan.g71 at gmail.com (juan)
Date: Tue, 17 Nov 2015 18:02:24 -0300
Subject: [tor-talk] [cryptography] Paris Attacks Blamed on Strong
 Cryptography and Edward Snowden
In-Reply-To: <CAD2Ti2_cXfeGH+EDRF_W-xyXax8JaGQt0MQJHAv8=FY=FXNqEQ@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAEm6Kb+b9xkGf-5PSvAWULhtki6J8VqkMQPbg2zK9i8GJz=0KA@mail.gmail.com>
 <E1ZyijB-0004oR-Hp@elasmtp-curtail.atl.sa.earthlink.net>
 <CAJp_JOHFR+0eQioRH6mW_-4k+u_GXhVuwQvPRMq6NFUzurWe2A@mail.gmail.com>
 <564B7473.6030704@gmx.com>
 <CAD2Ti2_cXfeGH+EDRF_W-xyXax8JaGQt0MQJHAv8=FY=FXNqEQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <564b9431.93248c0a.e845a.0881@mx.google.com>

On Tue, 17 Nov 2015 15:29:59 -0500
grarpamp <grarpamp at gmail.com> wrote:


> http://www.ghostsec.org/


	LOL at the stupid CIA shitbags. 




From guninski at guninski.com  Tue Nov 17 09:21:52 2015
From: guninski at guninski.com (Georgi Guninski)
Date: Tue, 17 Nov 2015 19:21:52 +0200
Subject: Paris Attacks Blamed on Strong Cryptography and Edward Snowden
In-Reply-To: <CAEm6Kb+b9xkGf-5PSvAWULhtki6J8VqkMQPbg2zK9i8GJz=0KA@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAEm6Kb+b9xkGf-5PSvAWULhtki6J8VqkMQPbg2zK9i8GJz=0KA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <20151117172152.GA2674@sivokote.iziade.m$>

On Tue, Nov 17, 2015 at 05:03:48PM +0200,  Александр  wrote:
> 1. https://www.schneier.com/blog/archives/2015/11/paris_attacks_b.html
> 2.
> https://theintercept.com/2015/11/15/exploiting-emotions-about-paris-to-blame-snowden-distract-from-actual-culprits-who-empowered-isis/
> 
> <<As Paris reels from terrorist attacks that have claimed at least 128
> lives, fierce blame for the carnage is being directed toward American
> whistleblower Edward Snowden and the spread of strong encryption catalyzed
> by his actions. Now the Paris attacks are being used an excuse to demand
> back doors>>
> 
>

According to local media.

French sheeple gathered to protest, claiming
"we are not afraid of terrorists".

At the protest, recreational firework went off.

Significant amount of the protesters started
running away in panic, afraid of bombs.

Judge for yourself about the rationality of
sheeple.




From grarpamp at gmail.com  Tue Nov 17 19:14:35 2015
From: grarpamp at gmail.com (grarpamp)
Date: Tue, 17 Nov 2015 22:14:35 -0500
Subject: Glomar'ing for more Manganese Nodules ;)
Message-ID: <CAD2Ti2-RkremX8XUk-hvn-3TL99N7Y-ONpX_QLs-e6yFq30n0g@mail.gmail.com>

http://motherboard.vice.com/read/deep-sea-gold-rush
November 17, 2015
Here in Papua New Guinea, one well-financed, first-mover company is
about to pioneer deep sea mining. And that will mean dispatching a
fleet of giant remote-operated robotic miners 5,000 feet below the
surface to harvest the riches scattered across ocean floor. These
mammoth underwater vehicles look like they’ve been hauled off the set
of a sci-fi film—think Avatar meets The Abyss. And they'll be dredging
up ... manganese nodules—metal-rich clumps—awaiting extraction in
near-limitless supply.




From oshwm at openmailbox.org  Tue Nov 17 14:56:01 2015
From: oshwm at openmailbox.org (oshwm)
Date: Tue, 17 Nov 2015 22:56:01 +0000
Subject: [Cryptography] Sadly predictable: Terrorism used as excuse to
 attack encryption
In-Reply-To: <CAD2Ti29mAvoUc-MLw8EbYTMuCYpDjCererdVQ5vQCzXLJi=NMQ@mail.gmail.com>
References: <20151117111239.0fa1383d@jabberwock.cb.piermont.com>
 <CAO0uZ+9ztRAYWXFxGjPAQmn+YDgaiqd6hvGrX4YgP9h3R_S9Pg@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAD2Ti29mAvoUc-MLw8EbYTMuCYpDjCererdVQ5vQCzXLJi=NMQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <02170436-E788-40BB-ABFD-8E53A64C14C3@openmailbox.org>

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA512

Is this a troll? :D

On 17 November 2015 22:42:10 GMT+00:00, grarpamp <grarpamp at gmail.com> wrote:
>On Tue, Nov 17, 2015 at 12:41 PM, Miroslav Kratochvil
><exa.exa at gmail.com> wrote:
>> I agree with you that there should not be restrictions on encryption.
>> Still, the problem is elsewhere -- we simply should not encrypt
>_that_
>> much. (also applies to your car analogy, btw).
>>
>> To explain: Common people with reasonable operating systems/browsers
>> are now using bulk encryption on every single HTTP request they make,
>> on every single disk block they have, making SPF handshake with each
>> person they IM, etc.. Observe that only a really tiny amount of the
>> data is actually confidental (login tokens, business data, ...).
>Think
>> about what bulk encryption means for the consumption of computing
>> power (RSA ain't free, I'd actually expect more than gigawatts).
>Think
>> about what it means for law-enforcement agencies -- they can't even
>> simply prove that given single user is _not_ a suspect to narrow
>their
>> search. No wonder that a politician who was assigned the task to keep
>> the society secure&thriving would actually hate any kind of
>> encryption. And that is a problem, because the simplest thing he can
>> do is a ban.
>>
>> I'd prefer something less drastic before the ban comes, like forcing
>> the user/software selectively choose (by some smart API or a
>correctly
>> designed UI) what to encrypt, leaving the rest (most) of data
>> "ecologic" and "law-enforcement friendly".
>>
>> -mk
>>
>>
>> PS. In no way I suggest simply "turning SSL off", but there could be
>a
>> way that just authenticates the data without doing encryption. Method
>> for easily marking the "secret bits" of the stream would be cool as
>> well.
>>
>> PS2. In no way I suggest surrendering all our information to
>orwellian
>> big brother, but well, think of the good cops.
>
>I'd wager that overall code and feature bloat is the far larger
>consumer of electricity, especially since crypto in hardware.
>Also note how if your personal electricity use has dropped but
>your bill same or went up, doesn't matter what you use, they
>tax you for what they want.
>PKI like RSA has always been more costly than stream
>like AES, so some auth and special marked stream overhead
>isn't likely to save anything, because it's bloat.
>Nothing says you can't log your own proof of innocence
>Exhibitionists like you could even ship the footage in your
>house daily to your good cops for their innocent entertainment.
>Why not task yourself to keep yourself secure and thriving.
>And have a good laugh about ISIS with the good cops should
>they mistakenly knock once in a while about your crypto.

- --
Sent from my Android device with K-9 Mail. Please excuse my brevity.
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From grarpamp at gmail.com  Tue Nov 17 21:12:18 2015
From: grarpamp at gmail.com (grarpamp)
Date: Wed, 18 Nov 2015 00:12:18 -0500
Subject: =?UTF-8?Q?Re=3A_ISIS_has_=E2=80=98help_desk=E2=80=99_to_aid_would=2Dbe_terrori?=
 =?UTF-8?Q?sts_with_encryption?=
In-Reply-To: <E1ZyrQ9-0004lP-B3@elasmtp-scoter.atl.sa.earthlink.net>
References: <E1ZyrQ9-0004lP-B3@elasmtp-scoter.atl.sa.earthlink.net>
Message-ID: <CAD2Ti28KjPmemoZ7HN+Z42_CwDcKz9M0ji=9ix6kUPtqZT7JzQ@mail.gmail.com>

Lots of these circulating the tubes...
https://www.reddit.com/r/nottheonion/comments/3t2g15/isis_has_help_desk_for_terrorists_staffed_around/


On Tue, Nov 17, 2015 at 8:19 PM, Henry Baker <hbaker1 at pipeline.com> wrote:
> Perhaps the U.S. govt -- e.g., OPM & Brennan -- should consider emulating these opsec help desks.
>
> Also, wouldn't an encryption 'help desk' have to be unencrypted/insecure *by definition* ?
>
> I mean, if these guys need so much help doing encryption, they'd never even be able to access an encrypted help desk in the first place.
>
> I don't know if Johnny can encrypt, but we keep hearing rumors that Muhammad can.
>
> ---
> EXTREMIST FORUMS PROVIDE DIGITAL OPSEC TRAINING
>
> Aaron Brantly, Muhammad al-`Ubaydi  May 28, 2015
>
> https://www.ctc.usma.edu/posts/extremist-forums-provide-digital-opsec-training
>
> https://www.ctc.usma.edu/v2/wp-content/uploads/2015/05/CTCSentinel-Vol8Issue53.pdf
>
> ---
>
> http://thehill.com/policy/cybersecurity/260402-isis-help-desk-aides-would-be-terrorists-with-encryption
>
> ISIS has ‘help desk’ to aid would-be terrorists with encryption
>
> By Cory Bennett - 11/17/15 10:48 AM EST
>
> The Islamic State in Iraq and Syria (ISIS) has set up a 24-hour “help desk” to advise burgeoning jihadists on encrypting their communications in order to evade authorities, NBC News reported.
>
> The tactic has developed rapidly over the last year, according to several U.S. Army counterterrorism analysts.  Roughly half a dozen senior operatives are now always on hand at this center to provide digital pointers.
>
> This help desk demonstrates the terorrist group’s increasing savvy in using digital tools to both recruit new members and to plan attacks.
>
> ISIS has taken credit for the deadly terrorist attacks on Paris last week that killed over 120 people.  European officials say those behind the attack may have used some type of encrypted communication in the planning process.
>
> “They’ve developed a series of different platforms in which they can train one another on digital security to avoid intelligence and law enforcement agencies for the explicit purpose of recruitment, propaganda and operational planning,” said Aaron F. Brantly, a counterterrorism analyst at the Combating Terrorism Center, an independent research organization at the U.S. Military Academy, in an interview with NBC News.
>
> The discovery of such tech capabilities will likely fuel the already contentious worldwide debate over encryption standards.
>
> U.S. intelligence officials and lawmakers have already used the Paris attacks to call for some type of guaranteed government access to encrypted communications data at companies such as Apple, Facebook and Google.
>
> But privacy and digital rights groups have said that such access would weaken encryption for everyone without significantly helping law enforcement monitor potential terrorists.  Many have also noted that terrorist groups have long developed their own encryption tools that would not be touched by any government rules.
>
> The ISIS help desk monitors leading security software and encryption methods, directing recruits to the most clandestine option.
>
> While a large community helps run the operation, there are five or six core members with collegiate- or masters-level training in information technology that fuel the help desk, said Brantly, the lead author of a paper on the topic.
>
> “They answer questions from the technically mundane to the technically savvy to elevate the entire jihadi community to engage in global terror," Brantly said.  "Clearly this enables them to communicate and engage in operations beyond what used to happen, and in a much more expeditious manner.  They are now operating at the speed of cyberspace rather than the speed of person-to-person communications."
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> The cryptography mailing list
> cryptography at metzdowd.com
> http://www.metzdowd.com/mailman/listinfo/cryptography




From grarpamp at gmail.com  Tue Nov 17 23:02:39 2015
From: grarpamp at gmail.com (grarpamp)
Date: Wed, 18 Nov 2015 02:02:39 -0500
Subject: =?UTF-8?Q?Re=3A_ISIS_has_=E2=80=98help_desk=E2=80=99_to_aid_would=2Dbe_terrori?=
 =?UTF-8?Q?sts_with_encryption?=
In-Reply-To: <CAD2Ti28KjPmemoZ7HN+Z42_CwDcKz9M0ji=9ix6kUPtqZT7JzQ@mail.gmail.com>
References: <E1ZyrQ9-0004lP-B3@elasmtp-scoter.atl.sa.earthlink.net>
 <CAD2Ti28KjPmemoZ7HN+Z42_CwDcKz9M0ji=9ix6kUPtqZT7JzQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAD2Ti29dpqUV_K3DDVftgEBZSghKR=1foFuTJh-kChEV5N1s1A@mail.gmail.com>

On Tue, Nov 17, 2015 at 8:19 PM, Henry Baker <hbaker1 at pipeline.com> wrote:
> Perhaps the U.S. govt -- e.g., OPM & Brennan -- should consider emulating these opsec help desks.
>
> Also, wouldn't an encryption 'help desk' have to be unencrypted/insecure *by definition* ?
>
> I mean, if these guys need so much help doing encryption, they'd never even be able to access an encrypted help desk in the first place.

No, just like basic access to the Internet, basic access to darknet
resources is now but a click away. That's a good thing for everyone,
not just criminals or those who need the security. You'd be amazed
at how fast some of the darknet social sites are growing with just
people socializing about art, their dogs, hobbies and whatever.
An uncensorable early version of the net, people are talking and
sharing freely with each other, it's working.

> I don't know if Johnny can encrypt, but we keep hearing rumors that Muhammad can.

Seems the NSA's been posting session transcripts all over the tubes
the last couple days...
https://www.reddit.com/r/nottheonion/comments/3t2g15/isis_has_help_desk_for_terrorists_staffed_around/




From grarpamp at gmail.com  Tue Nov 17 23:11:01 2015
From: grarpamp at gmail.com (grarpamp)
Date: Wed, 18 Nov 2015 02:11:01 -0500
Subject: Whenever Shit Hits The Fan, Remember The Mission...
Message-ID: <CAD2Ti286NUE-WG0gi230t_BSaciLxe_iVziMRyH5qUw+c0-bww@mail.gmail.com>

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EuQLMXyGQOE
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jRXsWtfQ2cA
"I have a certain level of respect for hackers."

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w_a7_pygtNA
"Hey there NSA, how are you today?"

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1w6GtwOvnWM
"IRC, darknets, down now?... I'll use pigeons and smoke signals..."

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Rkk2d3O64ns
"Global universal internet is the only tool we still have between
our hands to address these global issues... a fight we have to fight..."


Whatever may be your mission...
Vive La France!
Vive Le Punk :-)



[Thread is short video link thread, post away.]




From alfiej at fastmail.fm  Tue Nov 17 11:34:29 2015
From: alfiej at fastmail.fm (Alfie John)
Date: Wed, 18 Nov 2015 05:34:29 +1000
Subject: Paris Attacks Blamed on Strong Cryptography and Edward Snowden
In-Reply-To: <CAEm6Kb+b9xkGf-5PSvAWULhtki6J8VqkMQPbg2zK9i8GJz=0KA@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAEm6Kb+b9xkGf-5PSvAWULhtki6J8VqkMQPbg2zK9i8GJz=0KA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <1447788869.2857860.442494577.6F70A2E2@webmail.messagingengine.com>

On Wed, Nov 18, 2015, at 01:03 AM,  Александр  wrote:
> 1. https://www.schneier.com/blog/archives/2015/11/paris_attacks_b.html
> 2.
> https://theintercept.com/2015/11/15/exploiting-emotions-about-paris-to-blame-snowden-distract-from-actual-culprits-who-empowered-isis/
> 
> <<As Paris reels from terrorist attacks that have claimed at least 128
> lives, fierce blame for the carnage is being directed toward American
> whistleblower Edward Snowden and the spread of strong encryption
> catalyzed
> by his actions. Now the Paris attacks are being used an excuse to demand
> back doors>>

New York Times pulls the article:

  http://yro.slashdot.org/story/15/11/17/1357248/nyt-quietly-pulls-article-blaming-encryption-in-paris-attacks#

Encryption is the new Aluminum Tubes.

Alfie

-- 
  Alfie John
  alfiej at fastmail.fm




From grarpamp at gmail.com  Wed Nov 18 10:58:56 2015
From: grarpamp at gmail.com (grarpamp)
Date: Wed, 18 Nov 2015 13:58:56 -0500
Subject: US Congress Vows To Criminalize First Amendment in re Paris
Message-ID: <CAD2Ti290BQ6N+Pfn4sgfLybmLZeM+TG4dPPMS7sa6-0QmW5EWw@mail.gmail.com>

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/powerpost/wp/2015/11/17/senators-want-to-give-government-access-to-encrypted-communications-to-combat-terrorism/

Senate Intelligence Committee leaders are vowing to explore ways to
grant more government access to secure communications. Intelligence
Committee Chair Richard Burr, R-N.C., and his counterpart, ranking
Democrat Dianne Feinstein, D-Calif., say that encrypted communications
should be more easily accessible by the government.


http://arstechnica.com/tech-policy/2015/11/congressman-to-stop-isis-lets-shut-down-websites-and-social-media/

US Rep. Joe Barton (R-Texas) has a plan to stop terrorists: shut down
websites, including social media networks. Barton today asked Federal
Communications Commission Chairman Tom Wheeler if the commission can
shut down websites... Barton didn't name any specific sites but said
that "we need to do something" because of the terrorist attack in
Paris.


While criminalizing harmless Crypto and Speech, don't forget yourselves...
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/NSA_Suite_A_Cryptography
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Voice_of_America

Keep on rollin out that crypto fellas, more, better, faster...
and educate your critters before it's too late.




From grarpamp at gmail.com  Wed Nov 18 11:20:42 2015
From: grarpamp at gmail.com (grarpamp)
Date: Wed, 18 Nov 2015 14:20:42 -0500
Subject: =?UTF-8?Q?Re=3A_=5BCryptography=5D_ISIS_has_=E2=80=98help_desk=E2=80=99_to_aid_w?=
 =?UTF-8?Q?ould=2Dbe_terrorists_with_encryption?=
In-Reply-To: <CAH9pdwfYzwRgmKV+KtuPh+ScCAL3LmNxVz9ktf6FdGvZ2po9OQ@mail.gmail.com>
References: <E1ZyrQ9-0004lP-B3@elasmtp-scoter.atl.sa.earthlink.net>
 <CAD2Ti28KjPmemoZ7HN+Z42_CwDcKz9M0ji=9ix6kUPtqZT7JzQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAD2Ti29dpqUV_K3DDVftgEBZSghKR=1foFuTJh-kChEV5N1s1A@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAH9pdwfYzwRgmKV+KtuPh+ScCAL3LmNxVz9ktf6FdGvZ2po9OQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAD2Ti29K3u5RR3Bqht7wLABgysm5b+ATBdahK+tuMU77_by21w@mail.gmail.com>

On Wed, Nov 18, 2015 at 10:02 AM, I.G. Mant <ingusmant at gmail.com> wrote:
> here comes the terrorists to say they have a helpdesk
> nonetheless to help all the baddies commit their crimes

There's no doubt these particular criminals help each other both
digitally and in physical world. Criminal forums off in the corners
of the internet are as old as the internet itself. And by definition
they must be easy to find / access by potential users, otherwise they
would have no use. If the news reports are correct (and they claim some
quite specific details) then just as with the onion link to Al-Hayat,
there must be a publicly known link to said helpdesk.
So... big question... where is the link?

http://www.nbcnews.com/storyline/paris-terror-attacks/isis-has-help-desk-terrorists-staffed-around-clock-n464391




From ted-lists at xy0.org  Wed Nov 18 17:40:21 2015
From: ted-lists at xy0.org (Ted W.)
Date: Wed, 18 Nov 2015 20:40:21 -0500
Subject: US Congress Vows To Criminalize First Amendment in re Paris
In-Reply-To: <CAD2Ti290BQ6N+Pfn4sgfLybmLZeM+TG4dPPMS7sa6-0QmW5EWw@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAD2Ti290BQ6N+Pfn4sgfLybmLZeM+TG4dPPMS7sa6-0QmW5EWw@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <564D2885.7030901@xy0.org>

And yet, we find that the Paris attackers did not communicate via
encrypted channels for most of their planning:

http://bit.ly/1WZFM9H
(https://www.techdirt.com/articles/20151118/08474732854/after-endless-demonization-encryption-police-find-paris-attackers-coordinated-via-unencrypted-sms.shtml)

On 11/18/2015 01:58 PM, grarpamp wrote:
> https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/powerpost/wp/2015/11/17/senators-want-to-give-government-access-to-encrypted-communications-to-combat-terrorism/
> 
> Senate Intelligence Committee leaders are vowing to explore ways to
> grant more government access to secure communications. Intelligence
> Committee Chair Richard Burr, R-N.C., and his counterpart, ranking
> Democrat Dianne Feinstein, D-Calif., say that encrypted communications
> should be more easily accessible by the government.
> 
> 
> http://arstechnica.com/tech-policy/2015/11/congressman-to-stop-isis-lets-shut-down-websites-and-social-media/
> 
> US Rep. Joe Barton (R-Texas) has a plan to stop terrorists: shut down
> websites, including social media networks. Barton today asked Federal
> Communications Commission Chairman Tom Wheeler if the commission can
> shut down websites... Barton didn't name any specific sites but said
> that "we need to do something" because of the terrorist attack in
> Paris.
> 
> 
> While criminalizing harmless Crypto and Speech, don't forget yourselves...
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/NSA_Suite_A_Cryptography
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Voice_of_America
> 
> Keep on rollin out that crypto fellas, more, better, faster...
> and educate your critters before it's too late.
> 




From oshwm at openmailbox.org  Wed Nov 18 13:58:57 2015
From: oshwm at openmailbox.org (oshwm)
Date: Wed, 18 Nov 2015 21:58:57 +0000
Subject: FCC comes to CCC? "No GSM test network at 32C3"
In-Reply-To: <564CF075.2060505@gmail.com>
References: <CAJVRA1TbBrdcyVquLpmPSh8s=-8tMZxe_P7MLZy1By5RNUQ6rA@mail.gmail.com>
 <5648FB8B.6000300@openmailbox.org> <2103982.ATCdq4UpEd@lapuntu>
 <564CF075.2060505@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <F6BC8146-63B7-4AC8-B6CA-22AEBC781B2A@openmailbox.org>

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA512

You might meet some of them but you won't know its them :D




On 18 November 2015 21:41:09 GMT+00:00, Tomas Overdrive Petru <tpetru at gmail.com> wrote:
>On 16.11.15 22:24, rysiek wrote:
>> Dnia niedziela, 15 listopada 2015 21:39:23 oshwm pisze:
>>> These boys and girls should probably approach Vodafone.
>>> I wouldn't be surprised that if Vodafone isn't using the frequency
>range
>>> or its not particularly congested they might allow its use.
>>>
>>> They are a funny bunch, Vodafone, and despite some 'difficult'
>business
>>> practices can sometimes be helpful :)
>> Indeed:
>> http://laforge.gnumonks.org/blog/20151116-gsm_at_32c3/
>>
>
>Pretty good.
>See you there and THX for all that work, appreciated.
>
>It is not probably good idea to expect that somebody from tinfoil hat
>society will agree to meet IRL there, right? we can have a really lot
>of
>political clashes and sign our keys there, too.
>;]
>
>- Over
>
>--
>“Borders I have never seen one. But I have heard they exist in the
>minds of some people.”
>  ―     Thor Heyerdahl
>
>
>Telegram................... at over23
>facebook chat..............overdrive23 at chat.facebook.com
>facebook...................facebook.com/overdrive23
>projects...................https://brmlab.cz/user/overdrive
>twitter....................https://twitter.com/#!/over2393
>last.fm....................http://www.last.fm/user/overdrive23
>GnuPG key FingerPrint......08EA E4DC EF85 0F02 9267 5B48 2E58 6902 C5F8
>794C
>Public key ................http://overdrive.dronezone.eu/overdrive.txt

- --
Sent from my Android device with K-9 Mail. Please excuse my brevity.
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From tpetru at gmail.com  Wed Nov 18 13:41:09 2015
From: tpetru at gmail.com (Tomas Overdrive Petru)
Date: Wed, 18 Nov 2015 22:41:09 +0100
Subject: FCC comes to CCC? "No GSM test network at 32C3"
In-Reply-To: <2103982.ATCdq4UpEd@lapuntu>
References: <CAJVRA1TbBrdcyVquLpmPSh8s=-8tMZxe_P7MLZy1By5RNUQ6rA@mail.gmail.com>
 <5648FB8B.6000300@openmailbox.org> <2103982.ATCdq4UpEd@lapuntu>
Message-ID: <564CF075.2060505@gmail.com>

On 16.11.15 22:24, rysiek wrote:
> Dnia niedziela, 15 listopada 2015 21:39:23 oshwm pisze:
>> These boys and girls should probably approach Vodafone.
>> I wouldn't be surprised that if Vodafone isn't using the frequency range
>> or its not particularly congested they might allow its use.
>>
>> They are a funny bunch, Vodafone, and despite some 'difficult' business
>> practices can sometimes be helpful :)
> Indeed:
> http://laforge.gnumonks.org/blog/20151116-gsm_at_32c3/
>

Pretty good.
See you there and THX for all that work, appreciated.

It is not probably good idea to expect that somebody from tinfoil hat
society will agree to meet IRL there, right? we can have a really lot of
political clashes and sign our keys there, too.
;]

- Over

-- 
“Borders I have never seen one. But I have heard they exist in the minds of some people.”        
  ―     Thor Heyerdahl 


Telegram................... at over23
facebook chat..............overdrive23 at chat.facebook.com
facebook...................facebook.com/overdrive23
projects...................https://brmlab.cz/user/overdrive
twitter....................https://twitter.com/#!/over2393
last.fm....................http://www.last.fm/user/overdrive23
GnuPG key FingerPrint......08EA E4DC EF85 0F02 9267 5B48 2E58 6902 C5F8 794C
Public key ................http://overdrive.dronezone.eu/overdrive.txt


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From tpetru at gmail.com  Wed Nov 18 13:48:04 2015
From: tpetru at gmail.com (Tomas Overdrive Petru)
Date: Wed, 18 Nov 2015 22:48:04 +0100
Subject: Privacy Wiki
Message-ID: <564CF214.3020904@gmail.com>

Dear mailing-list,

I have found just recently that I'm not aware of actual situation of
full HD encryption and container encryption after extinction of TrueCrypt.
Is here somebody who was able to follow this topic during recent
volatile and turbulent times after Truecrypt extinction?
Links appreciated but some xplanation why this or that would be even better.

Useful output of potential discussion will be added here
https://brmlab.cz/project/crypto-anonymity_knowbase and tested.
In case you have some feedback about this DIY notepad about crypto much
appreciated, too.

Regards,
- Over

-- 
“Borders I have never seen one. But I have heard they exist in the minds of some people.”        
  ―     Thor Heyerdahl 


Telegram................... at over23
facebook chat..............overdrive23 at chat.facebook.com
facebook...................facebook.com/overdrive23
projects...................https://brmlab.cz/user/overdrive
twitter....................https://twitter.com/#!/over2393
last.fm....................http://www.last.fm/user/overdrive23
GnuPG key FingerPrint......08EA E4DC EF85 0F02 9267 5B48 2E58 6902 C5F8 794C
Public key ................http://overdrive.dronezone.eu/overdrive.txt


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From tpetru at gmail.com  Wed Nov 18 13:54:27 2015
From: tpetru at gmail.com (Tomas Overdrive Petru)
Date: Wed, 18 Nov 2015 22:54:27 +0100
Subject: Hardware tokens and crypto hardware in wild general
Message-ID: <564CF393.3000303@gmail.com>

Dear mailing-list,

today is day of many questions but that should be ok since from question
knowledge can possibly grow.
So my question is if you are aware of this project:
https://www.yubico.com/products/yubikey-hardware/
or some of its competitors.

What is your experience and so.

This potential thread is based on Twitter question under hashtag
#cryptography if somebody do know some useful crypto hardware project.
Here is one. Hope more will follow.

Regards,
- Over

-- 
“Borders I have never seen one. But I have heard they exist in the minds of some people.”        
  ―     Thor Heyerdahl 


Telegram................... at over23
facebook chat..............overdrive23 at chat.facebook.com
facebook...................facebook.com/overdrive23
projects...................https://brmlab.cz/user/overdrive
twitter....................https://twitter.com/#!/over2393
last.fm....................http://www.last.fm/user/overdrive23
GnuPG key FingerPrint......08EA E4DC EF85 0F02 9267 5B48 2E58 6902 C5F8 794C
Public key ................http://overdrive.dronezone.eu/overdrive.txt


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From grarpamp at gmail.com  Wed Nov 18 21:18:22 2015
From: grarpamp at gmail.com (grarpamp)
Date: Thu, 19 Nov 2015 00:18:22 -0500
Subject: Carnegie Mellon Staying Quiet For FBI? So Launch A FOIPA Muckrake
 Adventure!
Message-ID: <CAD2Ti28bppHDt6fKPb6vZtJ9HPsptZ+wMuHxxJP3wY8vkUq_ag@mail.gmail.com>

http://www.wired.com/2015/11/carnegie-mellon-denies-fbi-paid-for-tor-breaking-research/
https://www.cmu.edu/news/stories/archives/2015/november/media-statement.html
http://pafoic.org/pennsylvanias-sunshine-act/
https://www.fbi.gov/foia/




From grarpamp at gmail.com  Wed Nov 18 21:22:05 2015
From: grarpamp at gmail.com (grarpamp)
Date: Thu, 19 Nov 2015 00:22:05 -0500
Subject: US Congress Vows To Criminalize First Amendment in re Paris
In-Reply-To: <564D2885.7030901@xy0.org>
References: <CAD2Ti290BQ6N+Pfn4sgfLybmLZeM+TG4dPPMS7sa6-0QmW5EWw@mail.gmail.com>
 <564D2885.7030901@xy0.org>
Message-ID: <CAD2Ti2_vRNUfONFBWTfdAs4ki1VP8JBD_O9XtN-vLsf+TTw1eA@mail.gmail.com>

On Wed, Nov 18, 2015 at 8:40 PM, Ted W. <ted-lists at xy0.org> wrote:
> And yet, we find that the Paris attackers did not communicate via
> encrypted channels for most of their planning:

Which means absolutely nothing to these anti crypto people.
And is no excuse for you to quit deploying crypto and fighting them.




From grarpamp at gmail.com  Wed Nov 18 23:05:46 2015
From: grarpamp at gmail.com (grarpamp)
Date: Thu, 19 Nov 2015 02:05:46 -0500
Subject: Privacy Wiki
In-Reply-To: <CAEm6Kb+u0LWzQUsyfAfiz_2mc2n6mhp0WFkgvrDG+B47xCkX6g@mail.gmail.com>
References: <564CF214.3020904@gmail.com>
 <CAEm6Kb+u0LWzQUsyfAfiz_2mc2n6mhp0WFkgvrDG+B47xCkX6g@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAD2Ti2_LEDRFiEa46bRh4q06qUweSWdE_XeFWq+_LLGNYyK7NA@mail.gmail.com>

Before scouring the net to find whatever third party app you can install,
review what comes native with your OS for applicability.
Windows - bitlocker
FreeBSD - geli
Linux - dm-crypt
MacOS - filevault
etc...

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Comparison_of_disk_encryption_software




From carimachet at gmail.com  Wed Nov 18 21:32:03 2015
From: carimachet at gmail.com (Cari Machet)
Date: Thu, 19 Nov 2015 07:32:03 +0200
Subject: Right is the Might of the Community (theatre, Berlin)
In-Reply-To: <CAN9H=iKcVQcyRiZRKBiy9NkVTi51dn5daqEY7H-FmsppmkEq2w@mail.gmail.com>
References: <564A0892.5040006@squimp.com>
 <CAN9H=iKcVQcyRiZRKBiy9NkVTi51dn5daqEY7H-FmsppmkEq2w@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAGRDzQUdv47mcv8DqnTBdHOzUGDjMeHYTMmjXY+F4ULdVx_ekw@mail.gmail.com>

eeeeek thanks jason

who do we know in the berlin?

On Mon, Nov 16, 2015 at 9:36 PM, Jason McVetta <jason.mcvetta at gmail.com>
wrote:

> FWIW, opening that link in Firefox on Android caused some blinky display
> errors and a sudden reboot of the phone.  That behavior seemed weird enough
> to warrant an immediate factory reset of the phone OS.  Maybe I'm
> excessively paranoid, but I would recommend using prophylactic measures
> when opening that link.
>
> On Mon, Nov 16, 2015 at 8:47 AM, Nathan Andrew Fain <nathan at squimp.com>
> wrote:
>
>> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
>> Hash: SHA1
>>
>> Perhaps of interest...
>> a lecture performance with a character that believes in absolute
>> democracy through decentralized technology, assassination politics,
>> with a dash of male psychology and neurophilia for inspiration. This
>> weekend at Hebbel Am Ufer in berlin, if interested (nov 21,22).
>>
>> http://rightisthe.mightofthe.community
>>
>> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
>> Version: GnuPG v1
>>
>> iEYEARECAAYFAlZKCJIACgkQveagdEkPM4Ar3gCdFxKN1pYi9JwM7YuLoU8NYHkK
>> chUAn14UGsNKSTTemuWz2ajOa25rltud
>> =k0U3
>> -----END PGP SIGNATURE-----
>>
>
>


-- 
Cari Machet
NYC 646-436-7795
carimachet at gmail.com
AIM carismachet
Syria +963-099 277 3243
Amman +962 077 636 9407
Berlin +49 152 11779219
Reykjavik +354 894 8650
Twitter: @carimachet <https://twitter.com/carimachet>

7035 690E 5E47 41D4 B0E5 B3D1 AF90 49D6 BE09 2187

Ruh-roh, this is now necessary: This email is intended only for the
addressee(s) and may contain confidential information. If you are not the
intended recipient, you are hereby notified that any use of this
information, dissemination, distribution, or copying of this email without
permission is strictly prohibited.
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From afalex169 at gmail.com  Wed Nov 18 21:48:51 2015
From: afalex169 at gmail.com (=?UTF-8?B?INCQ0LvQtdC60YHQsNC90LTRgCA=?=)
Date: Thu, 19 Nov 2015 07:48:51 +0200
Subject: Privacy Wiki
In-Reply-To: <564CF214.3020904@gmail.com>
References: <564CF214.3020904@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAEm6Kb+u0LWzQUsyfAfiz_2mc2n6mhp0WFkgvrDG+B47xCkX6g@mail.gmail.com>

For all platforms - VeraCrypt:
*https://veracrypt.codeplex.com/ <https://veracrypt.codeplex.com/>*

Open source. Based on TrueCrypt with many security patches and improvements.
VeraCrypt can create crypto-containers and encrypt the whole OS/Hard disc.

Tested it on Lynux and Windows. Works great.
Highly recommended.
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From kurt.buff at gmail.com  Thu Nov 19 08:56:08 2015
From: kurt.buff at gmail.com (Kurt Buff)
Date: Thu, 19 Nov 2015 08:56:08 -0800
Subject: Privacy Wiki
In-Reply-To: <CAD2Ti2_LEDRFiEa46bRh4q06qUweSWdE_XeFWq+_LLGNYyK7NA@mail.gmail.com>
References: <564CF214.3020904@gmail.com>
 <CAEm6Kb+u0LWzQUsyfAfiz_2mc2n6mhp0WFkgvrDG+B47xCkX6g@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAD2Ti2_LEDRFiEa46bRh4q06qUweSWdE_XeFWq+_LLGNYyK7NA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CADy1Ce7k=n5xeDHFAa5cM=Wc77orBNcphXA+bZ-D0Kv258OPqA@mail.gmail.com>

Bitlocker for Win7 requires the Enterprise or Ultimate editions, as
applicable. (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Windows_7_editions)
Bitlocker for Win8.1 requires the Pro or Enterprise edition
(https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Windows_8_editions)
Bitlocker for Win10 requires the Pro, Enterprise or Education edition,
and it's unclear whether the Mobile, Mobile Enterprise or IoT Core
editions support it.
(https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Windows_10_editions)

All versions Windows with editions less than Enterprise also don't
support Applocker, though Software Restriction Policies can be used,
even if they are not as easy to implement.

For those wanting always on connectivity to their own mothership
(businesses, mostly) will also require the Enterprise version of
Windows for DirectAccess. It's extremely handy for those who need it,
and can afford the infrastructure.

Kurt

On Wed, Nov 18, 2015 at 11:05 PM, grarpamp <grarpamp at gmail.com> wrote:
> Before scouring the net to find whatever third party app you can install,
> review what comes native with your OS for applicability.
> Windows - bitlocker
> FreeBSD - geli
> Linux - dm-crypt
> MacOS - filevault
> etc...
>
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Comparison_of_disk_encryption_software




From skquinn at rushpost.com  Thu Nov 19 09:38:22 2015
From: skquinn at rushpost.com (Shawn K. Quinn)
Date: Thu, 19 Nov 2015 11:38:22 -0600
Subject: Privacy Wiki
In-Reply-To: <CAD2Ti2_LEDRFiEa46bRh4q06qUweSWdE_XeFWq+_LLGNYyK7NA@mail.gmail.com>
References: <564CF214.3020904@gmail.com>
 <CAEm6Kb+u0LWzQUsyfAfiz_2mc2n6mhp0WFkgvrDG+B47xCkX6g@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAD2Ti2_LEDRFiEa46bRh4q06qUweSWdE_XeFWq+_LLGNYyK7NA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <1447954702.17082.1.camel@moonpatrol>

On Thu, 2015-11-19 at 02:05 -0500, grarpamp wrote:
> Before scouring the net to find whatever third party app you can install,
> review what comes native with your OS for applicability.
> Windows - bitlocker
> FreeBSD - geli
> Linux - dm-crypt
> MacOS - filevault
> etc...
> 
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Comparison_of_disk_encryption_software

Good points, though the main reason for using something like
TrueCrypt/VeraCrypt is portability across operating systems. Unless I am
missing something, it's well-nigh impossible to access a Bitlocker
volume from GNU/Linux or *BSD, etc.

-- 
Shawn K. Quinn <skquinn at rushpost.com>




From grarpamp at gmail.com  Thu Nov 19 20:52:22 2015
From: grarpamp at gmail.com (grarpamp)
Date: Thu, 19 Nov 2015 23:52:22 -0500
Subject: =?UTF-8?Q?Re=3A_=5BCryptography=5D_ISIS_has_=E2=80=98help_desk=E2=80=99_to_aid_w?=
 =?UTF-8?Q?ould=2Dbe_terrorists_with_encryption?=
In-Reply-To: <CAMm+LwgAfMxUrf6-FRwiGe4kqD_inc_Bi7YubebPNDbuS+PbCQ@mail.gmail.com>
References: <E1ZyrQ9-0004lP-B3@elasmtp-scoter.atl.sa.earthlink.net>
 <CAD2Ti28KjPmemoZ7HN+Z42_CwDcKz9M0ji=9ix6kUPtqZT7JzQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAD2Ti29dpqUV_K3DDVftgEBZSghKR=1foFuTJh-kChEV5N1s1A@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAH9pdwfYzwRgmKV+KtuPh+ScCAL3LmNxVz9ktf6FdGvZ2po9OQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAD2Ti29K3u5RR3Bqht7wLABgysm5b+ATBdahK+tuMU77_by21w@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAMm+LwgAfMxUrf6-FRwiGe4kqD_inc_Bi7YubebPNDbuS+PbCQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAD2Ti2-iQK3uMxvP4A99jgLK3BnKGrYSou2SLmefT6Hft_+BsA@mail.gmail.com>

On Thu, Nov 19, 2015 at 9:53 AM, Phillip Hallam-Baker
<phill at hallambaker.com> wrote:
> I am getting so fed up with unsourced nonsense stories.
> The CIA is fully capable of making an official statement.

This brief interview may or may not be sourced from the CIA,
however it does drop some specific nets, apps and screenshots...

Top questions asked on the ISIS 'Help Desk'... Dr. Aaron Brantly, a
cyber fellow at the Combating Terrorism Center at West Point answers.
http://money.cnn.com/2015/11/18/technology/isis-jihad-help-desk/
http://ht3.cdn.turner.com/money/big/technology/2015/11/19/isis-help-desk.cnnmoney_1024x576.mp4


Meanwhile, Manhattan DA steps up pressure on Google and Apple to open
up encryption to government...
https://thestack.com/security/2015/11/19/cyrus-vance-jr-zero-knowledge-encryption-apple-google/
http://manhattanda.org/sites/default/files/11%2018%2015%20DANY%20Financial%20Crimes%20and%20Cybersecurity%20Sympo
sium%20Remarks%20As%20Prepared.pdf

Strong encryption for the people and individuals is not negotiable.
Keep on pushing that straight crypto dope, man...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ixfchZ1s47Q
Let the record play...



> they can do so by having a named spokesperson give an on the record
> briefing.

Declothing the emperor is not in their interest.

> who had military weapons

Other than NBC and massive moving metal war machines
that require taxes to fabricate, the only real difference is "laws".
Dual use. One man's freedom fighter...

> The highly centralized, rigid, US military is unable to function
> without constant communication.

Forget the people, shoot the antennas.




From ryacko at gmail.com  Fri Nov 20 00:55:54 2015
From: ryacko at gmail.com (Ryan Carboni)
Date: Fri, 20 Nov 2015 00:55:54 -0800
Subject: Carnegie Mellon Staying Quiet For FBI? So Launch A FOIPA Muckrake
 Adventure!
Message-ID: <CAO7N=i3+Fg7of-wtAB4iYofi6xmUBXqFXUNwidsAjKvO3u1+kg@mail.gmail.com>

Not enough information leaked on the subject to make a decent FOIA request.
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From grarpamp at gmail.com  Thu Nov 19 23:07:48 2015
From: grarpamp at gmail.com (grarpamp)
Date: Fri, 20 Nov 2015 02:07:48 -0500
Subject: Fwd: [tor-talk] How does one remove the NSA Virus off the BIOS Chip
 as described by Snowden in the ANT Program
In-Reply-To: <564EB197.7020207@columbia.edu>
References: <564EB197.7020207@columbia.edu>
Message-ID: <CAD2Ti2_QsMr4GVAaTCmig1yNyuFa1F2R8oFi5MQ7A5QKeuUOtg@mail.gmail.com>

---------- Forwarded message ----------
From: William H. Depperman <whd2 at columbia.edu>
Date: Fri, Nov 20, 2015 at 12:37 AM
Subject: [tor-talk] How does one remove the NSA Virus off the BIOS
Chip as described by Snowden in the ANT Program
To: tor-talk at lists.torproject.org


Hi TOR Mailing List People,

            I am apparently  the number one person in the United
States on the _*NSA-CIA-FBI Watch List*_. For multiple reasons! I am
the Coordinator of the United Front Against Racism and
Capitalism-Imperialism who was arrested by the so-called "Major Case
Squad" in August 1986 because our group exposed the scientific
documentation on a big series of _/*huge*/_ wall posters that AIDS is
Biological Warfare by the US Government Against Blacks, Gays and those
with certain blood dyscrasias. The arrest was on the front pages of
all NYC newspapers and on Channel 4 in Europe. I tried to send this
email to Anonymous and TOR does not permit attachments so just
disregard that when you see an attachment mentioned.

            Recently I was _*Extraordinarily Renditioned*_ (KIDNAPPED
AND HELD AGAINST MY WILL FOR 18 HOURS AND TORTURED after simply
walking along a road in New Jersey!) See the third attachment. The NSA
has TOTAL control of my computer and has real time keystroke by
keystroke monitoring and harassment while I am on the computer. My
anti-virus and anti-Malware are totally useless as explained by
Snowden because the computer is controlled through the _*BIOS Chip*_
as explained in the attachment on Snowden revelations. Scroll down the
document until you get to _*ANT*_ (Access Network Technology). I would
like for _*Anonymous*_ to publish on its website for EVERYONE, not
just me,  how to remove and neutralize NSA viruses placed on the BIOS
CHIP! Also please send the information in an email to me. I am sure
you could manage this. If THEY can do it and YOU are the world's
greatest hackers just like they are, then YOU can neutralize any
garbage they place on the BIOS Chip. Kaspersky by refusing to help me
in this also SUPPORTS NSA placement of virus software on the BIOS Chip
because that confirms that I am one of the capitalists' most important
enemies and therefore I am an are automatic enemy of Kaspersky. So I
can go screw! Will I receive the same response from Anonymous? It is a
rule of capitalist statecraft that a government control and operate
its own opposition by one means or another any and ALL means.
Anonymous is a supposed opposition group. So who is _/*really*/_
running anonymous and please do not say "everyone" or "no one" because
that is the same BS answer given by the anti-Communist Anarchist
group,  so-called "Occupy Wall Street." _*I need immediate help*_. And
so undoubtedly do others! I am partially computer savvy. But I am not
yet a programmer. Also, I am a Medical Doctor and a Theoretical
Astrophysicist and a Professional Revolutionary and have recently
finished writing an extremely important document completed after
almost 2 years of actual work: The _*Materialist Analysis of
Theoretical Astrophysics*_, which is a Classic of scientific,
political literature. As it states early on:

            "Though it is of a different genre from "On the Origin of
Species" by Charles Darwin and             "Zur Dynamik Bewegter
Korper" by Albert Einstein and the Einstein Field Equations
         which form the basis for the General Theory of Relativity it
sits on the same shelf
            because it defends all three and takes it further and
provides the answer to the ultimate                 question: What is
the truthful explanation of the Universe?"

            I could have added "The Eighteenth Brumaire of Louis
Bonaparte," by Karl Marx, which is a classic object lesson in applied
historical materialism. In any case we have to get rid of capitalism
or capitalism is going to get rid of us. _*A non-response from
Anonymous is a death sentence for the credibility of Anonymous.*_ You
can give me the information on how to get rid of a virus on the BIOS
chip or you can contact someone who DOES know how to do it. I will
remove it every day if I have to.

            Also I need help in publishing in some fashion the second
attached document. I do not want to hear "We are not your army?"
During the era when political postering was permitted in the United
States I spent over $50,000 of my own money on politics and the huge
posters which used to cover the walls of many US cities. Our AIDS
poster stopped all political postering in the United States by the
capitalist dictatorship of millionaires and billionaires. We are
living in End-Stage Capitalism. It is known as Rule by Decree, a form
of Bonapartism as in Napoleon Bonaparte. It is expressed a a military,
bureaucratic police state which is hardening by the day. "Democracy"
under capitalism is merely a codeword and a euphemism--both, they are
different--for capitalist dictatorship and enslavement here or
anywhere else in the world. We have to get rid of capitalism or
capitalism is going to get rid of us. Remember that capitalism is a
WORLD SYSTEM and so is Communism. Socialism, the first stage of
Communism has never ever actually been practiced anywhere and cannot
be practiced anywhere until capitalism is overthrown worldwide
starting at its center, the USA. We live in a a world of nation
states. All nation states are dictatorships of one class over another
class, either the capitalists over the Workers or vice versa. Because
of the 1988 Surrender by Gorbachev to the threat of a Nuclear War
there are a lot fewer Worker's States. We were almost there! In the
1930s we had a Million-Strong Communist-led Working Class Movement.
But they were deliberately misled to take a bribe known as the New
Deal. You don't think they came up with the New Deal out of the
goodness of their heart now do you? FDR was given credit then and more
recently on Cahnnel Thirteen Public Television for "Saving Capitalism
with the New Deal!" If that Million-Strong Communist-led Working Class
had not been deliberately misled to take that New Deal bribe there
would have been no Adolph Hitler, No WWII, No Korea, No Vietnam War
and ZERO of today's present problems. Look at the present world
situation! Ninety-Five Percent of New Yorkers and the overwhelming
majority of Americans and people worldwide agree we need a new system
based on human need not private profit.

William H. Depperman
whd2 at columbia.edu
--
tor-talk mailing list - tor-talk at lists.torproject.org
To unsubscribe or change other settings go to
https://lists.torproject.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/tor-talk




From grarpamp at gmail.com  Fri Nov 20 01:20:11 2015
From: grarpamp at gmail.com (grarpamp)
Date: Fri, 20 Nov 2015 04:20:11 -0500
Subject: Carnegie Mellon Staying Quiet For FBI? So Launch A FOIPA Muckrake
 Adventure!
In-Reply-To: <CAO7N=i3+Fg7of-wtAB4iYofi6xmUBXqFXUNwidsAjKvO3u1+kg@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAO7N=i3+Fg7of-wtAB4iYofi6xmUBXqFXUNwidsAjKvO3u1+kg@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAD2Ti2_YXdGysiZXwFS3oqSM6hjctpFZVuVVZJQb9mvxZfnwHw@mail.gmail.com>

On Fri, Nov 20, 2015 at 3:55 AM, Ryan Carboni <ryacko at gmail.com> wrote:
> Not enough information leaked on the subject to make a decent FOIA request.

Lol, there's more than enough to go on.




From afalex169 at gmail.com  Thu Nov 19 22:46:54 2015
From: afalex169 at gmail.com (=?UTF-8?B?INCQ0LvQtdC60YHQsNC90LTRgCA=?=)
Date: Fri, 20 Nov 2015 08:46:54 +0200
Subject: A Most Convenient Massacre!
Message-ID: <CAEm6KbL3scf6tBNFWnAkZH=TjKizJg=_dChfnkQG-MK=3XXi8A@mail.gmail.com>

*Preamble: Our hearts go out in sorrow and grief to all those families and
friends of all the truly innocent humans who were really murdered during or
after the events in Paris by whomsoever. Their violent death certainly was
and remains a heinous and appalling crime for which the real culprits must
be brought to true justice.But, we can also not close our eyes from seeing
facts, which in these increasing numbers of "terrorist-attacks" do not fit
the "official" narrative or do not match the fake news-blasts of the
masterminded mainstream media, nor can we close our ears from the likewise
appalling war-cries on all sides of those who declare and let others fight
war (which in future's hindsight will and can only be seen as a war on
their own people) and first of all we will not close our ears and eyes from
the the cries and the plight of all those many innocent people in the
war-zones in and around Syria, the Middle East as well as North and Central
Africa, who suffer endlessly, have to finally flee their homeland.or get
killed in the proxy-wars of neo-colonialism.Thousands get killed there
every month, survivors in the tens of thousands have to flee and millions
of the population remaining behind suffer without any genuine help in
sight.*

​*​*



*A Most Convenient MassacreWhat a difference a single massacre can make!By
Dmitry Orlov*

November 17, 2015 "Information Clearing House" -  Just a week ago the EU
couldn't possibly figure out anything to do to stop the influx of
“refugees” from all those countries the US and NATO had bombed into
oblivion. But now, because “Paris changed everything,” EU's borders are
being locked down and refugees are being turned back.

• Just a week ago it seemed that the EU was going to be swamped by
resurgent nationalism, with incumbent political parties poised to get voted
out of power. But now, thanks to the Paris massacre, they have obtained a
new lease on life, because they can now safely embrace the same policies
that a week ago they branded as “fascist.”

• Just a week ago the EU and the US couldn't possibly bring themselves
admit that they are utterly incompetent when it comes to combating their
own creation—ISIS, that is—and need Russian help. But now, at the
après-Paris G-20 summit, everybody is ready to line up and let Putin take
charge of the war against terrorism. Look—the Americans finally found those
convoys of tanker trucks stretching beyond the horizon that ISIS has been
using to smuggle out stolen Syrian crude oil—after Putin showed them the
satellite photos!

Am I being crass and insensitive? Not at all—I deplore all the deaths from
terrorist attacks in Iraq, in Syria, in Lebanon, and in all the other
countries whose populations did absolutely nothing to deserve such
treatment. I only feel half as bad about the French, who stood by quietly
as their military helped destroy Libya (which did nothing to deserve it).



*Note that after the Russian jet crashed in the Sinai there weren't all
that many Facebook avatars with the Russian flag pasted over them, and
hardly any candlelight vigils or piles of wreaths and flowers in various
Western capitals. I even detected a whiff of smug satisfaction that the
Russians got their comeuppance for stepping out of line in Syria.Why the
difference in reaction? Simple: you were told to grieve for the French, so
you did. You were not told to grieve for the Russians, and so you didn't.
Don't feel bad; you are just following orders. The reasoning behind these
orders is transparent: the French, along with the rest of the EU, are
Washington's willing puppets; therefore, they are innocent, and when they
get killed, it's a tragedy. But the Russians are not Washington's willing
puppet, and are not innocent, and so when they get killed by terrorists,
it's punishment. And when Iraqis, or Syrians, or Nigerians get killed by
terrorists, that's not a tragedy either, for a different reason: they are
too poor to matter. In order to qualify as a victim of a tragedy, you have
to be each of these three things: 1. a US-puppet, 2. rich and 3. dead.*

Also, you probably believe that the terrorist attacks in Paris were the
genuine article—nobody knew it would happen, and it couldn't have been
stopped, because these terrorists are just too clever for the ubiquitous
state surveillance to detect. Don't feel bad about that either; you are
just believing what you are told to believe. You probably also believe that
jet fuel can melt steel girders and that skyscrapers collapse into their
own footprints (whether they've been hit by airplanes or not). You can
certainly believe whatever you like, but here are a couple of
easy-to-understand tips on telling what's real from what's fake:

1. If it's fake, the perpetrators are known immediately (and sometimes
beforehand). If it's real, then the truth is uncovered as a result of a
thorough investigation. So, for instance, on 9/11 the guilty party were a
bunch of Saudis armed with box cutters (some of whom are, paradoxically,
still alive). And in Paris we knew right away that this was done by
ISIS—even before we knew who the perpetrators were. And when that Malaysian
jet got shot down over Ukraine, we knew right away that it was the
Russians' fault (never mind that on that day the Ukrainians deployed an air
defense system, and also scrambled a couple of jets armed with air-to-air
missiles— against an enemy that doesn't have an air force). Note, however,
how we still don't know what happened with the Russian jet over Sinai (the
article was written on November 17, 2015 - before the Russian investigation
revealed the ISIS bomb in the jet). That case is still under
investigation—as it should be. If it's real, officials stall for time and
urge caution while scrambling to find out what happened. When it's fake,
the officials are ready to go with the Big Lie, and then do everything they
can to make it stick, suppressing what shreds of evidence can be
independently gathered.

2. If it's fake, than you should also expect cute little touches: designer
logos for publicity campaigns ready to launch at a moment's notice, be it
“Je suis Charlie” or that cute little Eiffel Tower inscribed in a peace
symbol. There weren't any props to go with the Russian jet disaster—unless
you count that tasteful Charlie Hebdo cartoon of a jihadi rocket having
anal sex with an airliner. There might also be a few traditional titbits
designed to feed a media frenzy, such as a fake passport found lying next
to one of the perpetrators—because when terrorists go on suicide missions
they always take their fake passports with them. The people who are charged
with designing these events lack imagination and usually just go with
whatever worked before.

We should certainly expect there to be more fake massacres of this
sort—whenever the political situation becomes sufficiently fraught to call
for one—because at this point ready-to-go jihadi terrorist cells are
something of a sunk cost and can be deployed very cheaply and effectively.
Of course we should grieve for the victims, but there is something far more
important at stake than mere human lives, which are, deplorably, becoming
cheaper with each passing year. We should grieve for the truth.
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From afalex169 at gmail.com  Thu Nov 19 23:16:45 2015
From: afalex169 at gmail.com (=?UTF-8?B?INCQ0LvQtdC60YHQsNC90LTRgCA=?=)
Date: Fri, 20 Nov 2015 09:16:45 +0200
Subject: How does one remove the NSA Virus off the BIOS Chip
Message-ID: <CAEm6KbLtyoZTUZ1Q153+26ujNSbpFP3LUpHy++__s6uq6+pJhQ@mail.gmail.com>

** was originally by William H. Depperman ​​whd2 at columbia.edu
<whd2 at columbia.edu> to the tor list.*

Hi Mailing List People,

            I am apparently  the number one person in the United States on
the _*NSA-CIA-FBI Watch List*_. For multiple reasons! I am the Coordinator
of the United Front Against Racism and Capitalism-Imperialism who was
arrested by the so-called "Major Case Squad" in August 1986 because our
group exposed the scientific documentation on a big series of _/*huge*/_
wall posters that AIDS is Biological Warfare by the US Government Against
Blacks, Gays and those with certain blood dyscrasias. The arrest was on the
front pages of all NYC newspapers and on Channel 4 in Europe. I tried to
send this email to Anonymous and TOR does not permit attachments so just
disregard that when you see an attachment mentioned.

            Recently I was _*Extraordinarily Renditioned*_ (KIDNAPPED AND
HELD AGAINST MY WILL FOR 18 HOURS AND TORTURED after simply walking along a
road in New Jersey!) See the third attachment. The NSA has TOTAL control of
my computer and has real time keystroke by keystroke monitoring and
harassment while I am on the computer. My anti-virus and anti-Malware are
totally useless as explained by Snowden because the computer is controlled
through the _*BIOS Chip*_ as explained in the attachment on Snowden
revelations. Scroll down the document until you get to _*ANT*_ (Access
Network Technology). I would like for _*Anonymous*_ to publish on its
website for EVERYONE, not just me,  how to remove and neutralize NSA
viruses placed on the BIOS CHIP! Also please send the information in an
email to me. I am sure you could manage this. If THEY can do it and YOU are
the world's greatest hackers just like they are, then YOU can neutralize
any garbage they place on the BIOS Chip. Kaspersky by refusing to help me
in this also SUPPORTS NSA placement of virus software on the BIOS Chip
because that confirms that I am one of the capitalists' most important
enemies and therefore I am an are automatic enemy of Kaspersky. So I can go
screw! Will I receive the same response from Anonymous? It is a rule of
capitalist statecraft that a government control and operate its own
opposition by one means or another any and ALL means. Anonymous is a
supposed opposition group. So who is _/*really*/_ running anonymous and
please do not say "everyone" or "no one" because that is the same BS answer
given by the anti-Communist Anarchist group,  so-called "Occupy Wall
Street." _*I need immediate help*_. And so undoubtedly do others! I am
partially computer savvy. But I am not yet a programmer.

William H. Depperman
whd2 at columbia.edu
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From zen at freedbms.net  Fri Nov 20 02:29:45 2015
From: zen at freedbms.net (Zenaan Harkness)
Date: Fri, 20 Nov 2015 10:29:45 +0000
Subject: Is Europe as it stands today, compatible with democracy?
Message-ID: <CAOsGNSQ7xFD97xMR94ouAy_V+++Y-PWkH7aaAuqFC-SXJm0qAg@mail.gmail.com>

"why is society so blind to the course of action any truly committed
citizen might take?"
(President of the Arab European League, at least in 2006)

https://www.opendemocracy.net/can-europe-make-it/rosemary-bechler/democracy-and-belonging

This article is dated 19 November 2015 but is from 2006:
"In 2006, a conversation before a large audience in Rotterdam on the
role that Muslims should play in European societies took place,
between Dyab Abou Jahjah, then president of the Arab European League
with its Antwerp headquarters, and Tariq Ramadan. openDemocracy’s
Editor was there."

Seems quite apt today. And I guess the subject line applies to
Australia, Canada, USA etc too...




From admin at pilobilus.net  Fri Nov 20 09:06:16 2015
From: admin at pilobilus.net (Steve Kinney)
Date: Fri, 20 Nov 2015 12:06:16 -0500
Subject: Privacy Wiki
In-Reply-To: <564CF214.3020904@gmail.com>
References: <564CF214.3020904@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <564F5308.8070407@pilobilus.net>

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1

On 11/18/2015 04:48 PM, Tomas Overdrive Petru wrote:
> Dear mailing-list,
> 
> I have found just recently that I'm not aware of actual
> situation of full HD encryption and container encryption after
> extinction of TrueCrypt.

Truecrypt is not extinct.  Before its developers decided to stop
working on it, Truecrypt was considered adequately secure for
practical applications.  After its developers decided to stop
working on it, Truecrypt is considered adequately secure for
practical applications.

Nothing changed, except that if you don't have a copy of Truecrypt
you will have to find one can be verified as authentic via digital
signatures made from known good packages.  This is not hard, so if
you can not do it you should not trust /any/ cryptographic tool
until you have learned more about network security.

A recent in-depth security audit of Truecrpt found room for
improvement but no "show stoppers."  A more recent report asserts
that Truecrypt is "insecure" on Microsoft operating systems.
Examination of that claim reveals that the Microsoft operating
systems themselves, not Truecrypt, contain the security flaw in
question.  Where "security" is a major concern the use of
Microsoft products is ruled out, due to the availability of much
more secure alternatives; so this particular claim is not relevant.

Truecrypt will eventually become obsolete due to changes in the
operating systems is can be used with, as its predecessor
Scramdisk eventually became obsolete after development stopped.
It makes sense for Truecrypt users to start looking at alternative
tools now, and plan for a smooth transition away from Truecrypt at
their convenience.  Other posts in this thread mention several
candidates.

But the sky has not fallen and there is no particular reason to be
in a big hurry to dump Truecrypt right now.

:o)



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From zen at freedbms.net  Fri Nov 20 20:34:02 2015
From: zen at freedbms.net (Zenaan Harkness)
Date: Sat, 21 Nov 2015 04:34:02 +0000
Subject: Russia bans purchase of foreign non-niche software in Russian state
 agencies
Message-ID: <CAOsGNSS0fG4EQO6X2H3HWYsKJKKMbHkBtBPUqP3UBbJWK5b0Yw@mail.gmail.com>

Import substitution applied to software...

http://fortruss.blogspot.ru/2015/11/medvedev-bans-use-of-foreign-made.html

Medvedev bans the use of foreign-made software in Russian state agencies
Translated by Ollie Richardson for Fort Russ
20th November, 2015
novayagazeta.ru

The Prime Minister of Russia, Dmitry Medevdev, has signed a decree
prohibiting from 1 January 2016 the purchase of foreign-made software
for state needs, reports the press service of the Cabinet.

According to the document, customers will now be obliged to buy
Russian-produced software. It notes that the initiative is a method of
import substitution.

The exception is when software has the necessary functional, technical
or operational characteristics absent in Russia. To place an order on,
for example Microsoft Windows, officials will have to justify the need
for this operating system.

As reported to "Kommersant" earlier, the official, who asked to remain
anonymous,  said that a German IT company began to discuss with the
Ministry of economic development the possibility of  a partial
transfer of software production to Russia, in order thus to be able to
sell it on government orders.

A draft resolution was prepared and submitted by the Ministry of
communications and mass communications of the Russian Federation. It
was presented to Medvedev earlier in April.




From zen at freedbms.net  Fri Nov 20 22:21:07 2015
From: zen at freedbms.net (Zenaan Harkness)
Date: Sat, 21 Nov 2015 06:21:07 +0000
Subject: Russia's "eye-watering" military toys
Message-ID: <CAOsGNSTrRo8MJsoMr6o+K5iVDryq=KZRsmxpQZQb0Wdbw27VDA@mail.gmail.com>

http://journal-neo.org/2015/11/16/do-we-really-want-a-new-world-war-with-russia/

Enjoyable read. Reminds me of that immortal line in the Putin
documentary where the Russian navy chief points at a radar screen
saying something like 'look at that, I've never seen [a destroyer
class battleship] do this figure-8 move before' as the USS Donald Cook
first enters then hightails out of Crimean waters. International
military sparring at its best :)
Z




From zen at freedbms.net  Sat Nov 21 01:55:18 2015
From: zen at freedbms.net (Zenaan Harkness)
Date: Sat, 21 Nov 2015 09:55:18 +0000
Subject: Russia bans purchase of foreign non-niche software in Russian
 state agencies
In-Reply-To: <CAOsGNSS0fG4EQO6X2H3HWYsKJKKMbHkBtBPUqP3UBbJWK5b0Yw@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAOsGNSS0fG4EQO6X2H3HWYsKJKKMbHkBtBPUqP3UBbJWK5b0Yw@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAOsGNSQq2uOo-jo50AuT8RydpPCzZAJ9d2ggPNE5cR_RFf5LFw@mail.gmail.com>

Another article on the same topic. Although I like the phrase
"complete sovereignty of information" I think it is vague - seems they
mean "Russian government sovereignty over all domestic information
processing" or something, which of course will have positive flow on
effects, at least in the medium to longer term, for the domestic
Russian software industry. Way to go Russia! More countries should act
in such a protectionist way. What's the point of a country if it
doesn't look after its own citizens and national interests?


http://www.themoscowtimes.com/business/article/russia-restricts-use-of-foreign-software-in-battle-for-information-sovereignty/550106.html

Russia Restricts Use of Foreign Software in Battle for ‘Information Sovereignty’

    By Peter Hobson
    Nov. 20 2015 19:31
    Last edited 19:31

VedomostiUnder Friday's order, authorities will draw up a register of
Russian computer programs that will verify the Russianness of software
and promote its use.

Russian officials will be barred from using foreign software from next
year if a Russian version exists. The move, which is aimed at boosting
Russia's national security and the country's tech industry, could cost
foreign firms hundreds of millions of dollars in annual revenues.

The rules apply to local and national government entities and come
into force on Jan. 1, 2016, according to an order signed by Prime
Minister Dmitry Medvedev and published on the government's website on
Friday.

The order is part of a drive to wean Russia off imports in key areas
of industry that was accelerated after Moscow's falling out with the
West over Ukraine last year.

It is also linked to fears of spying and sabotage by foreign
intelligence services, who are feared to have access to software and
equipment developed in their countries. This anxiety has led to calls
to boycott iPhones, build a Russian operating system to rival
Microsoft's Windows, and tighten control of the Internet.

As Communications and Mass Media Minister Nikolai Nikiforov put it a
year ago: "We stand for complete sovereignty of information."

Under Friday's order, authorities will draw up a register of Russian
computer programs that will verify the Russianness of software and
promote its use.

Foreign software giants such as SAP, Oracle, IBM and Microsoft
recorded sales in Russia worth around $1.4 billion last year,
accounting for some three-quarters of the market, according to news
agency RBC. This included sales worth 20 billion rubles ($300 million)
to government entities, the Kommersant newspaper reported.

It is not clear how much foreign-made software has no analogue in
Russia, but the government is promoting local production. It also
seeks to train more programmers, though the most talented often end up
in the tech hubs of California.

Earlier this month Kommersant obtained a letter from the Association
of European Businesses, a Moscow lobby group, warning that the planned
law restricting use of non-Russian software would likely see foreign
companies freeze investment or pull out of Russia.

Contact the author at p.hobson at imedia.ru




From Rayzer at riseup.net  Sat Nov 21 09:57:56 2015
From: Rayzer at riseup.net (Razer)
Date: Sat, 21 Nov 2015 09:57:56 -0800
Subject: How does one remove the NSA Virus off the BIOS Chip
In-Reply-To: <CAEm6KbLtyoZTUZ1Q153+26ujNSbpFP3LUpHy++__s6uq6+pJhQ@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAEm6KbLtyoZTUZ1Q153+26ujNSbpFP3LUpHy++__s6uq6+pJhQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <5650B0A4.1090502@riseup.net>

Welp, if he doesn't like Dana Beal (Yip Culture Vulture) and AJ Weberman
(another former post-yip jackwad who, like Abbie's former associate Lee
Penn went "Full Zionist Creep), he's OK by me!

http://www.angelfire.com/planet/depperman/

On 11/19/2015 11:16 PM, Александр wrote:
> /William H. Depperman/


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From cypherpunks at cheiraminhavirilha.com  Sat Nov 21 03:53:11 2015
From: cypherpunks at cheiraminhavirilha.com (Virilha)
Date: Sat, 21 Nov 2015 11:53:11 +0000
Subject: Russia bans purchase of foreign non-niche software in Russian
 state agencies
In-Reply-To: <CAOsGNSQq2uOo-jo50AuT8RydpPCzZAJ9d2ggPNE5cR_RFf5LFw@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAOsGNSS0fG4EQO6X2H3HWYsKJKKMbHkBtBPUqP3UBbJWK5b0Yw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAOsGNSQq2uOo-jo50AuT8RydpPCzZAJ9d2ggPNE5cR_RFf5LFw@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <20151121115311.Horde.Ui0kbiOrb6yR9q0MVEsopw2@127.0.0.1>


agreed. if it comes in the form of help/fund/fork of open source  
software, better.

----- Message from Zenaan Harkness <zen at freedbms.net> ---------
    Date: Sat, 21 Nov 2015 09:55:18 +0000
    From: Zenaan Harkness <zen at freedbms.net>
Subject: Re: Russia bans purchase of foreign non-niche software in  
Russian state agencies
      To: cypherpunks at cpunks.org


> Another article on the same topic. Although I like the phrase
> "complete sovereignty of information" I think it is vague - seems they
> mean "Russian government sovereignty over all domestic information
> processing" or something, which of course will have positive flow on
> effects, at least in the medium to longer term, for the domestic
> Russian software industry. Way to go Russia! More countries should act
> in such a protectionist way. What's the point of a country if it
> doesn't look after its own citizens and national interests?
>
>
> http://www.themoscowtimes.com/business/article/russia-restricts-use-of-foreign-software-in-battle-for-information-sovereignty/550106.html
>
> Russia Restricts Use of Foreign Software in Battle for ‘Information  
> Sovereignty’
>
>     By Peter Hobson
>     Nov. 20 2015 19:31
>     Last edited 19:31
>
> VedomostiUnder Friday's order, authorities will draw up a register of
> Russian computer programs that will verify the Russianness of software
> and promote its use.
>
> Russian officials will be barred from using foreign software from next
> year if a Russian version exists. The move, which is aimed at boosting
> Russia's national security and the country's tech industry, could cost
> foreign firms hundreds of millions of dollars in annual revenues.
>
> The rules apply to local and national government entities and come
> into force on Jan. 1, 2016, according to an order signed by Prime
> Minister Dmitry Medvedev and published on the government's website on
> Friday.
>
> The order is part of a drive to wean Russia off imports in key areas
> of industry that was accelerated after Moscow's falling out with the
> West over Ukraine last year.
>
> It is also linked to fears of spying and sabotage by foreign
> intelligence services, who are feared to have access to software and
> equipment developed in their countries. This anxiety has led to calls
> to boycott iPhones, build a Russian operating system to rival
> Microsoft's Windows, and tighten control of the Internet.
>
> As Communications and Mass Media Minister Nikolai Nikiforov put it a
> year ago: "We stand for complete sovereignty of information."
>
> Under Friday's order, authorities will draw up a register of Russian
> computer programs that will verify the Russianness of software and
> promote its use.
>
> Foreign software giants such as SAP, Oracle, IBM and Microsoft
> recorded sales in Russia worth around $1.4 billion last year,
> accounting for some three-quarters of the market, according to news
> agency RBC. This included sales worth 20 billion rubles ($300 million)
> to government entities, the Kommersant newspaper reported.
>
> It is not clear how much foreign-made software has no analogue in
> Russia, but the government is promoting local production. It also
> seeks to train more programmers, though the most talented often end up
> in the tech hubs of California.
>
> Earlier this month Kommersant obtained a letter from the Association
> of European Businesses, a Moscow lobby group, warning that the planned
> law restricting use of non-Russian software would likely see foreign
> companies freeze investment or pull out of Russia.
>
> Contact the author at p.hobson at imedia.ru


----- End message from Zenaan Harkness <zen at freedbms.net> -----







From komachi at openmailbox.org  Sat Nov 21 07:52:41 2015
From: komachi at openmailbox.org (Anton Nesterov)
Date: Sat, 21 Nov 2015 15:52:41 +0000
Subject: Russia bans purchase of foreign non-niche software in Russian
 state agencies
In-Reply-To: <CAOsGNSQq2uOo-jo50AuT8RydpPCzZAJ9d2ggPNE5cR_RFf5LFw@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAOsGNSS0fG4EQO6X2H3HWYsKJKKMbHkBtBPUqP3UBbJWK5b0Yw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAOsGNSQq2uOo-jo50AuT8RydpPCzZAJ9d2ggPNE5cR_RFf5LFw@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <56509349.8020903@openmailbox.org>

Russia is just active as US on spying on it's own citizens, if not more,
yes, in the name of the same "national interests", although in this case
it seems to be more about money.

A kind of way to bypass that already found by Eset, they just partner
with Russian company and sell the same product as Russian-origin. Of
course this means that price for Eset products will be higher for
authorities and money will leave Russian budget for no reason.

Also Russian analogs which has no way to compete with foreign software
because of quality and price now can survive only by selling their shit
to the government.

And if you thought that opensource will take place of foreign
proprietary software, it's not true. Only in the form of proprietary
Russian product using some GPL/etc. codebase in violation of these licenses.

Corruption in Russia is very real and strong.

Zenaan Harkness:
> Another article on the same topic. Although I like the phrase
> "complete sovereignty of information" I think it is vague - seems they
> mean "Russian government sovereignty over all domestic information
> processing" or something, which of course will have positive flow on
> effects, at least in the medium to longer term, for the domestic
> Russian software industry. Way to go Russia! More countries should act
> in such a protectionist way. What's the point of a country if it
> doesn't look after its own citizens and national interests?
> 
> 
> http://www.themoscowtimes.com/business/article/russia-restricts-use-of-foreign-software-in-battle-for-information-sovereignty/550106.html
> 
> Russia Restricts Use of Foreign Software in Battle for ‘Information Sovereignty’
> 
>     By Peter Hobson
>     Nov. 20 2015 19:31
>     Last edited 19:31
> 
> VedomostiUnder Friday's order, authorities will draw up a register of
> Russian computer programs that will verify the Russianness of software
> and promote its use.
> 
> Russian officials will be barred from using foreign software from next
> year if a Russian version exists. The move, which is aimed at boosting
> Russia's national security and the country's tech industry, could cost
> foreign firms hundreds of millions of dollars in annual revenues.
> 
> The rules apply to local and national government entities and come
> into force on Jan. 1, 2016, according to an order signed by Prime
> Minister Dmitry Medvedev and published on the government's website on
> Friday.
> 
> The order is part of a drive to wean Russia off imports in key areas
> of industry that was accelerated after Moscow's falling out with the
> West over Ukraine last year.
> 
> It is also linked to fears of spying and sabotage by foreign
> intelligence services, who are feared to have access to software and
> equipment developed in their countries. This anxiety has led to calls
> to boycott iPhones, build a Russian operating system to rival
> Microsoft's Windows, and tighten control of the Internet.
> 
> As Communications and Mass Media Minister Nikolai Nikiforov put it a
> year ago: "We stand for complete sovereignty of information."
> 
> Under Friday's order, authorities will draw up a register of Russian
> computer programs that will verify the Russianness of software and
> promote its use.
> 
> Foreign software giants such as SAP, Oracle, IBM and Microsoft
> recorded sales in Russia worth around $1.4 billion last year,
> accounting for some three-quarters of the market, according to news
> agency RBC. This included sales worth 20 billion rubles ($300 million)
> to government entities, the Kommersant newspaper reported.
> 
> It is not clear how much foreign-made software has no analogue in
> Russia, but the government is promoting local production. It also
> seeks to train more programmers, though the most talented often end up
> in the tech hubs of California.
> 
> Earlier this month Kommersant obtained a letter from the Association
> of European Businesses, a Moscow lobby group, warning that the planned
> law restricting use of non-Russian software would likely see foreign
> companies freeze investment or pull out of Russia.
> 
> Contact the author at p.hobson at imedia.ru
> 
> 


-- 
https://nesterov.pw
GPG key: 0CE8 65F1 9043 2B11 25A5 74A7 1187 6869 67AA 56E4
https://keybase.io/komachi/key.asc




From dan at geer.org  Sat Nov 21 17:02:50 2015
From: dan at geer.org (dan at geer.org)
Date: Sat, 21 Nov 2015 20:02:50 -0500
Subject: cry-bullies
In-Reply-To: Your message of "Sun, 08 Nov 2015 12:58:07 +0000."
 <CAOsGNSRP_w-0OL5FweRk9QJ5arq0A9iZHfWyVXJtDgqsED2FUQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <20151122010250.AC4A1A06D78@palinka.tinho.net>

It is time to read, again one should hope, Aleksandr Solzhenitsyn's
1978 Harvard Commencement Address, "A World Split Apart"

facingislam.blogspot.com/2013/09/solzhenitsyns-1978-harvard-address.html


--dan




From juan.g71 at gmail.com  Sat Nov 21 17:16:15 2015
From: juan.g71 at gmail.com (juan)
Date: Sat, 21 Nov 2015 22:16:15 -0300
Subject: Russia's "eye-watering" military toys
In-Reply-To: <CAOsGNSTrRo8MJsoMr6o+K5iVDryq=KZRsmxpQZQb0Wdbw27VDA@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAOsGNSTrRo8MJsoMr6o+K5iVDryq=KZRsmxpQZQb0Wdbw27VDA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <565115a9.c24f370a.38b0.ffff94b1@mx.google.com>

On Sat, 21 Nov 2015 06:21:07 +0000
Zenaan Harkness <zen at freedbms.net> wrote:

> http://journal-neo.org/2015/11/16/do-we-really-want-a-new-world-war-with-russia/


	I couldn't find any 'serious' source for the claim that the
	russians jammed that aegis thing. On the other hand I wouldn't
	be too surprised if those anti-missile missiles didn't work as
	advertised. 


	On a related note, I see that the japanese are 'partners' or
	forcibibly buy that kind of stuff. I assume that any weapon
	that americunts sell is fully backdoored so I kinda wonder what
	kind of retard can buy stuff from them...Well, the japanese and
	many other seem to be just that kind of retard. 







From grarpamp at gmail.com  Sat Nov 21 21:33:13 2015
From: grarpamp at gmail.com (grarpamp)
Date: Sun, 22 Nov 2015 00:33:13 -0500
Subject: [guardian-dev] Freenet and PLUTO
In-Reply-To: <e710b354b18d47b018609065db24c9d1@ruggedinbox.com>
References: <e710b354b18d47b018609065db24c9d1@ruggedinbox.com>
Message-ID: <CAD2Ti285JhEJmLccxYUPBKJvh9fhc9Wx6+sHkkCoLD0ChL6=hw@mail.gmail.com>

On Fri, Nov 20, 2015 at 8:42 PM,  <salutarydiacritical23 at ruggedinbox.com> wrote:
> Hello. May I suggest a collaborative effort with a project you might know?
> Freenet is a p2p storage network that's been around forever. One interesting
> feature that's currently on hold is support for Tor's pluggable transports.
> I directed them to your PLUTO framework because it seems like a good drop-in
> choice. When all is said and done, users will be able to run Freenet over
> Tor for more protection.
>
> Freenet Mail list:
> https://emu.freenetproject.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/devl
>
> Freenet bugtracker:
> https://bugs.freenetproject.org/view.php?id=2124
>
> List info: https://lists.mayfirst.org/mailman/listinfo/guardian-dev

Note that freenet seems to have been successfully invaded by sybils...

http://www.thedickinsonpress.com/news/north-dakota/3885239-predators-police-online-struggle

Court records reveal the North Dakota Bureau of Criminal Investigation
has been running an undercover operation on the peer-to-peer network
Freenet since 2011...
Essentially, the BCI planted its own computers within the Freenet
network...Their computers kept logs of certain Freenet users' IP
addresses and the codes for what they were downloading, according to
the affidavit. Agents then compared the codes with a database they
built of codes known to be child porn.
But BCI investigators were able to devise a way to tell which IP
address--and consequently, which Freenet user--ultimately was
downloading the offending files.




From komachi at openmailbox.org  Sat Nov 21 17:51:25 2015
From: komachi at openmailbox.org (Anton Nesterov)
Date: Sun, 22 Nov 2015 01:51:25 +0000
Subject: Russia bans purchase of foreign non-niche software in Russian
 state agencies
In-Reply-To: <56510F0B.8040504@riseup.net>
References: <CAOsGNSS0fG4EQO6X2H3HWYsKJKKMbHkBtBPUqP3UBbJWK5b0Yw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAOsGNSQq2uOo-jo50AuT8RydpPCzZAJ9d2ggPNE5cR_RFf5LFw@mail.gmail.com>
 <56509349.8020903@openmailbox.org> <56510F0B.8040504@riseup.net>
Message-ID: <56511F9D.2040800@openmailbox.org>

Ivan Markin:
> Anton Nesterov:
>> And if you thought that opensource will take place of foreign 
>> proprietary software, it's not true. Only in the form of proprietary 
>> Russian product using some GPL/etc. codebase in violation of these
>> licenses.
> 
> Hmm. Are you sure about violation? As far as I know legal status is
> still unclear in Russia. So in case of violation there will be no
> regulation. No regulation no violation. Voilá!
> Anyway they would just sell super overpriced Uslugi (installation
> services etc.) and it would look like "this software is purchased" (from
> "our" company obviously).
> 

GPL doesn't need special regulation, it should work by-design
everywhere. Russian civil code even mention free licenses specially
(article 1286.1), so there is full legal basis, although I can't
remember any cases when that article was used in court (probably there
was none).

There is semi-opensource GNU/Linux distribution called Astra Linux based
on Debian and used by Russian govt that violates GPL by not providing
source codes to their KDE3-based DE
https://tlhp.cf/astra-linux-violate-gpl/ (funny that Astra Linux was
created specially for govt decree about moving state agencies to the
free software).

There is proprietary OS MSVS based on RedHat used in military which not
only violate GPL by not providing source codes, but even removed most of
copyright notices.

etc., etc.

-- 
https://nesterov.pw
GPG key: 0CE8 65F1 9043 2B11 25A5 74A7 1187 6869 67AA 56E4
https://keybase.io/komachi/key.asc




From zen at freedbms.net  Sat Nov 21 20:15:15 2015
From: zen at freedbms.net (Zenaan Harkness)
Date: Sun, 22 Nov 2015 04:15:15 +0000
Subject: cry-bullies
In-Reply-To: <20151122010250.AC4A1A06D78@palinka.tinho.net>
References: <CAOsGNSRP_w-0OL5FweRk9QJ5arq0A9iZHfWyVXJtDgqsED2FUQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <20151122010250.AC4A1A06D78@palinka.tinho.net>
Message-ID: <CAOsGNSRB6JnvE-uPQVf5802AZx3mxFzn+oDa1ge6yvT4pGzGuQ@mail.gmail.com>

On 11/22/15, dan at geer.org <dan at geer.org> wrote:
> It is time to read, again one should hope, Aleksandr Solzhenitsyn's
> 1978 Harvard Commencement Address, "A World Split Apart"
>
> facingislam.blogspot.com/2013/09/solzhenitsyns-1978-harvard-address.html

That's a great set of insights. First time reading Solzhenitsyn for
me, thank you very much!

Tried watching the video, but the audio overlay of Solzhenitsyn and
the translator makes it rough going - I'll stick to the reading
version.

Thanks again,
Zenaan




From zen at freedbms.net  Sat Nov 21 20:52:37 2015
From: zen at freedbms.net (Zenaan Harkness)
Date: Sun, 22 Nov 2015 04:52:37 +0000
Subject: Russia bans purchase of foreign non-niche software in Russian
 state agencies
In-Reply-To: <56511F9D.2040800@openmailbox.org>
References: <CAOsGNSS0fG4EQO6X2H3HWYsKJKKMbHkBtBPUqP3UBbJWK5b0Yw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAOsGNSQq2uOo-jo50AuT8RydpPCzZAJ9d2ggPNE5cR_RFf5LFw@mail.gmail.com>
 <56509349.8020903@openmailbox.org> <56510F0B.8040504@riseup.net>
 <56511F9D.2040800@openmailbox.org>
Message-ID: <CAOsGNSTAW8uQWbsGrUCzqvJ=cBWaPWpSsJ=MdDEO8rpMM5A=Ww@mail.gmail.com>

On 11/22/15, Anton Nesterov <komachi at openmailbox.org> wrote:
> Ivan Markin:
>> Anton Nesterov:
>>> And if you thought that opensource will take place of foreign
>>> proprietary software, it's not true. Only in the form of proprietary
>>> Russian product using some GPL/etc. codebase in violation of these
>>> licenses.
>>
>> Hmm. Are you sure about violation? As far as I know legal status is
>> still unclear in Russia. So in case of violation there will be no
>> regulation. No regulation no violation. Voilá!

We would say "no law making such activity illegal, no violation."

This matches Richard Stallman's position that the GPL relies on
copyright law, which it does - it is the original hack of copyright
law to manifest an idea, an ideal, which idea and ideal I happen to
agree with.
(Can't immediately find a link, but he has answered this question
before, ie "would you get rid of copyright law" - with the answer
being "no, because the GPL relies upon it.")

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Copyleft


>> Anyway they would just sell super overpriced Uslugi (installation
>> services etc.) and it would look like "this software is purchased" (from
>> "our" company obviously).

That is just fine, that's a good thing - resources are being kept in
Russia, for Russians. And then the only question is efficiency of
government spending, which is an entirely different and solvable
problem - for example as long as the government makes transparent its
spending, then "installation services of GPL software" would soon
enough be seen as lucrative pursuit, and competition would
(presumably) arise for said installation (and customization) services,
and the costs to government should normalize, that is the costs should
normalize around relatively low installation/ customization/ training
services, rather than the cost of proprietary software rent-seekers
such as Microsoft, SAP and Oracle. This again will be a very good
thing for Russia and for Russians. More countries should follow this
lead of Russia - in fact it is in everyone's interest.


> GPL doesn't need special regulation, it should work by-design
> everywhere.

It is easy for me to say this is not true - but the assertion is a
'should' and is too broad. The GPL in fact relies upon law of
copyright. Copyright is one form of proprietary monopoly "right" which
is artificial, not natural - that is, except for "law" based
enforcement, it does not exist naturally. A coal mine is a natural
monopoly in the area that it exists, but there are many coal
locations, so coal has plenty of competition and transport is cheap,
so no actual monopoly.

GPL is clever - it uses "artificial (statutory) monopoly right" in a
unique way - essentially to apply the minimum number of restrictions
on redistribution of e.g. source code, in order to maximise the
availability of source code to the whole community, over the long
term. That's pretty cool. In the face of statutory monopolies and rent
seekers around the world, this is an effective hack to broaded the
free libre software source code base. That's a good thing.

https://www.gnu.org/philosophy/misinterpreting-copyright.en.html

http://firstmonday.org/article/view/2058/1956
"Abstract
This paper takes a new look at the debate over commons and property in
information and communications. It warns against recreating the old
communist–capitalist ideological divide by framing the movement for
informational commons as “info–communist.” The spectre of communism
haunts the movement because of an unresolved ideological tension in
its ethical and philosophical foundations. The case for free software
and open information contains both deontological appeals to the
virtues of sharing, and consequentialist arguments against the growing
intrusiveness of the institutional and technological mechanisms used
to enforce exclusivity in the digital economy. The paper argues that
the deontological case is a dead end that leads to info–communism. The
strongest case for open access and freedom in information and
communications is grounded in a liberalism that takes maximizing
individual freedom as its objective and relies on creative
complementarities between property and commons regimes as means to
that end."


> Russian civil code even mention free licenses specially
> (article 1286.1), so there is full legal basis, although I can't
> remember any cases when that article was used in court (probably there
> was none).

Perhaps you can spread the word that "overpriced services" is not only
OK by the GPL, but encouraged. "Charge as much as you can.":
http://www.fsf.org/philosophy/selling.html


> There is semi-opensource GNU/Linux distribution called Astra Linux based
> on Debian and used by Russian govt that violates GPL by not providing
> source codes to their KDE3-based DE
> https://tlhp.cf/astra-linux-violate-gpl/ (funny that Astra Linux was
> created specially for govt decree about moving state agencies to the
> free software).

It is still so much better than pumping money into proprietary
freedom-denying community-compromising software that you might get
from Apple and Microsoft.

> There is proprietary OS MSVS based on RedHat used in military which not
> only violate GPL by not providing source codes, but even removed most of
> copyright notices.

Military probably gets to do what it wants, without much question.

BUT, these examples and others, are examples of opportunity to build a
little GPL-enforcing community in Russia, perhaps send a letter to the
president (currently Putin), or simply to jump on the free libre
software bandwagon and make some money - but showing how to do it
right, with respect of original authors' intentions as expressed by
the respective software licenses.

This move by the Russian government is an excellent move, make no
doubt. Those Russians who can make money from it, can do so with their
heads held high, in dignity and with rightful respect from the rest of
the world. Go to it! Service your government and make some clean
money!! You have the blessings of the large global free libre software
community, the Free Software Foundation, etc.

Regards,
Zenaan




From zen at freedbms.net  Sat Nov 21 21:06:14 2015
From: zen at freedbms.net (Zenaan Harkness)
Date: Sun, 22 Nov 2015 05:06:14 +0000
Subject: Russia bans purchase of foreign non-niche software in Russian
 state agencies
In-Reply-To: <CAOsGNSTAW8uQWbsGrUCzqvJ=cBWaPWpSsJ=MdDEO8rpMM5A=Ww@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAOsGNSS0fG4EQO6X2H3HWYsKJKKMbHkBtBPUqP3UBbJWK5b0Yw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAOsGNSQq2uOo-jo50AuT8RydpPCzZAJ9d2ggPNE5cR_RFf5LFw@mail.gmail.com>
 <56509349.8020903@openmailbox.org> <56510F0B.8040504@riseup.net>
 <56511F9D.2040800@openmailbox.org>
 <CAOsGNSTAW8uQWbsGrUCzqvJ=cBWaPWpSsJ=MdDEO8rpMM5A=Ww@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAOsGNSSQ5tc_fZN0JkXiQYee6uqX6LOMfO6dc2LFtt6KV=OGtw@mail.gmail.com>

On 11/22/15, Zenaan Harkness <zen at freedbms.net> wrote:
> Go to it! Service your government and make some clean
> money!!

        Government ~~ "clean money" - what are you smoking?
        If Russian government's anything like the Americunts,
        your assertion is baseless. Cite or STFU!

(Just thought I'd answer myself before Juan jumped in :)
Zenaan




From aestetix at aestetix.com  Sun Nov 22 01:16:09 2015
From: aestetix at aestetix.com (aestetix)
Date: Sun, 22 Nov 2015 10:16:09 +0100
Subject: cry-bullies
In-Reply-To: <20151122010250.AC4A1A06D78@palinka.tinho.net>
References: <20151122010250.AC4A1A06D78@palinka.tinho.net>
Message-ID: <565187D9.2030707@aestetix.com>

Thank you. This was the best analysis of the problem I have yet encountered.

On 11/22/15 2:02 AM, dan at geer.org wrote:
> It is time to read, again one should hope, Aleksandr Solzhenitsyn's
> 1978 Harvard Commencement Address, "A World Split Apart"
> 
> facingislam.blogspot.com/2013/09/solzhenitsyns-1978-harvard-address.html
> 
> 
> --dan
> 


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From admin at pilobilus.net  Sun Nov 22 13:17:28 2015
From: admin at pilobilus.net (Steve Kinney)
Date: Sun, 22 Nov 2015 16:17:28 -0500
Subject: Russia bans purchase of foreign non-niche software in Russian
 state agencies
In-Reply-To: <5651FF13.4080100@openmailbox.org>
References: <CAOsGNSS0fG4EQO6X2H3HWYsKJKKMbHkBtBPUqP3UBbJWK5b0Yw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAOsGNSQq2uOo-jo50AuT8RydpPCzZAJ9d2ggPNE5cR_RFf5LFw@mail.gmail.com>
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 <CAOsGNSTAW8uQWbsGrUCzqvJ=cBWaPWpSsJ=MdDEO8rpMM5A=Ww@mail.gmail.com>
 <5651FF13.4080100@openmailbox.org>
Message-ID: <565230E8.3050602@pilobilus.net>

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On 11/22/2015 12:44 PM, Anton Nesterov wrote:

[... ]
> Well currently Russia has many problems with transparent
> spending. Even if tenders are public, it's still problematic to
> cancel clearly corrupt tenders. They often build it in such way
> that only one affiliated company can participate, like "company
> should had at least N workers, with N workers with Z
> certificates" and so on.

That's the way both military and commercial contracting usually
works in the U.S. as well:  The vendor makes a deal with the
purchasing agent, x units for y dollars, informally and off the
record.  Then the purchasing agent revises the specification so
that only the vendor in question can qualify.  The competitive
bidding process then proceeds normally, on the record, and as far
as the audit trail is concerned it's all perfectly legal.

The kickbacks are laundered in various ways; the most popular
method for military purchasing agents is for the vendors to hire
them as consultants when they leave the service, with
extraordinary pay and bonuses for little to no work performed.

Lots of other scams are also used, but the system described above
is probably the most widely used.

:o)


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mjT9lV1TV8UbeYZIxUj8
=tlAl
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----




From komachi at openmailbox.org  Sun Nov 22 09:44:51 2015
From: komachi at openmailbox.org (Anton Nesterov)
Date: Sun, 22 Nov 2015 17:44:51 +0000
Subject: Russia bans purchase of foreign non-niche software in Russian
 state agencies
In-Reply-To: <CAOsGNSTAW8uQWbsGrUCzqvJ=cBWaPWpSsJ=MdDEO8rpMM5A=Ww@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAOsGNSS0fG4EQO6X2H3HWYsKJKKMbHkBtBPUqP3UBbJWK5b0Yw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAOsGNSQq2uOo-jo50AuT8RydpPCzZAJ9d2ggPNE5cR_RFf5LFw@mail.gmail.com>
 <56509349.8020903@openmailbox.org> <56510F0B.8040504@riseup.net>
 <56511F9D.2040800@openmailbox.org>
 <CAOsGNSTAW8uQWbsGrUCzqvJ=cBWaPWpSsJ=MdDEO8rpMM5A=Ww@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <5651FF13.4080100@openmailbox.org>

Zenaan Harkness:
>> Ivan Markin:
>>> Anyway they would just sell super overpriced Uslugi (installation
>>> services etc.) and it would look like "this software is purchased" (from
>>> "our" company obviously).
> 
> That is just fine, that's a good thing - resources are being kept in
> Russia, for Russians. And then the only question is efficiency of
> government spending, which is an entirely different and solvable
> problem - for example as long as the government makes transparent its
> spending, then "installation services of GPL software" would soon
> enough be seen as lucrative pursuit, and competition would
> (presumably) arise for said installation (and customization) services,
> and the costs to government should normalize, that is the costs should
> normalize around relatively low installation/ customization/ training
> services, rather than the cost of proprietary software rent-seekers
> such as Microsoft, SAP and Oracle. This again will be a very good
> thing for Russia and for Russians. More countries should follow this
> lead of Russia - in fact it is in everyone's interest.
> 

Well currently Russia has many problems with transparent spending. Even
if tenders are public, it's still problematic to cancel clearly corrupt
tenders. They often build it in such way that only one affiliated
company can participate, like "company should had at least N workers,
with N workers with Z certificates" and so on.

So the idea of moving to free software is awesome (when the idea of ban
foreign software is not), but realization would be flawed because of how
Russia works.

> 
> Perhaps you can spread the word that "overpriced services" is not only
> OK by the GPL, but encouraged. "Charge as much as you can.":
> http://www.fsf.org/philosophy/selling.html
> 
Yes, I know, and I don't think there is any problems with providing
services for money. By "overpriced services" Ivan means kickbacks, it's
not special for software.

> It is still so much better than pumping money into proprietary
> freedom-denying community-compromising software that you might get
> from Apple and Microsoft.
But it's a proprietary freedom-denying community-compromising software
that you get from Astra Linux that clearly violates GPL, I don't think
it's any better. If they fix that problem and opensource everything,
that would be awesome, but now it's bad.

> 
>> There is proprietary OS MSVS based on RedHat used in military which not
>> only violate GPL by not providing source codes, but even removed most of
>> copyright notices.
> 
> Military probably gets to do what it wants, without much question.
It's not only military actually. Government company VNIINS just removed
all copyrights from RedHat, added some functionality and now sells it to
authorities, mostly military, but it's also used by drug police and others.

> 
> BUT, these examples and others, are examples of opportunity to build a
> little GPL-enforcing community in Russia, perhaps send a letter to the
> president (currently Putin), or simply to jump on the free libre
> software bandwagon and make some money - but showing how to do it
> right, with respect of original authors' intentions as expressed by
> the respective software licenses.
There was a govt decree about moving to free software, but it mostly
failed. For example, all schools was forced to install ALT Linux in
2007, if I remember correctly. They did, but it was installed in
dualboot with Windows and used only to show inspectors that well, here
is your Linux, we're in compliance (initially there was no accepted by
Ministry of Education books, only courses for teachers, but even that
was almost stopped when Putin came back, so that result was obvious).
Money was spend, but with no actual results. So Russia tried to jump on
the free libre software bandwagon for years with little or no success.

But also there was some successful migrations to free software, for
example, all clinics in Moscow moved to ALT Linux. There was no need of
ban of foreign software for it, they just did it. That how it should be,
but it's more like exception than a rule, and it's really hard to make
all Russia work that way.

> 
> This move by the Russian government is an excellent move, make no
> doubt. Those Russians who can make money from it, can do so with their
> heads held high, in dignity and with rightful respect from the rest of
> the world. Go to it! Service your government and make some clean
> money!! You have the blessings of the large global free libre software
> community, the Free Software Foundation, etc.
The problem is not in Russian companies making money on free software,
but doing this in corrupt way and with GPL violations. If they can do it
without that, this would be good.

-- 
https://nesterov.pw
GPG key: 0CE8 65F1 9043 2B11 25A5 74A7 1187 6869 67AA 56E4
https://keybase.io/komachi/key.asc




From juan.g71 at gmail.com  Sun Nov 22 14:15:32 2015
From: juan.g71 at gmail.com (juan)
Date: Sun, 22 Nov 2015 19:15:32 -0300
Subject: Russia bans purchase of foreign non-niche software in Russian
 state agencies
In-Reply-To: <565230E8.3050602@pilobilus.net>
References: <CAOsGNSS0fG4EQO6X2H3HWYsKJKKMbHkBtBPUqP3UBbJWK5b0Yw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAOsGNSQq2uOo-jo50AuT8RydpPCzZAJ9d2ggPNE5cR_RFf5LFw@mail.gmail.com>
 <56509349.8020903@openmailbox.org> <56510F0B.8040504@riseup.net>
 <56511F9D.2040800@openmailbox.org>
 <CAOsGNSTAW8uQWbsGrUCzqvJ=cBWaPWpSsJ=MdDEO8rpMM5A=Ww@mail.gmail.com>
 <5651FF13.4080100@openmailbox.org> <565230E8.3050602@pilobilus.net>
Message-ID: <56523cd1.611e8c0a.ddaf5.ffffdc1b@mx.google.com>

On Sun, 22 Nov 2015 16:17:28 -0500
Steve Kinney <admin at pilobilus.net> wrote:

> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
> Hash: SHA1
> 
> On 11/22/2015 12:44 PM, Anton Nesterov wrote:
> 
> [... ]
> > Well currently Russia has many problems with transparent
> > spending. Even if tenders are public, it's still problematic to
> > cancel clearly corrupt tenders. They often build it in such way
> > that only one affiliated company can participate, like "company
> > should had at least N workers, with N workers with Z
> > certificates" and so on.
> 
> That's the way both military and commercial contracting usually
> works in the U.S. as well: 



	That is terrorist talk and won't do us any good. There's no
	corruption in the liberal democracies. How could the people,
	who are in charge, cheat themselves? That's absurd. 



> The vendor makes a deal with the
> purchasing agent, x units for y dollars, informally and off the
> record.  Then the purchasing agent revises the specification so
> that only the vendor in question can qualify.  The competitive
> bidding process then proceeds normally, on the record, and as far
> as the audit trail is concerned it's all perfectly legal.
> 
> The kickbacks are laundered in various ways; the most popular
> method for military purchasing agents is for the vendors to hire
> them as consultants when they leave the service, with
> extraordinary pay and bonuses for little to no work performed.
> 
> Lots of other scams are also used, but the system described above
> is probably the most widely used.
> 
> :o)
> 
> 
> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
> Version: GnuPG v1
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> mjT9lV1TV8UbeYZIxUj8
> =tlAl
> -----END PGP SIGNATURE-----




From grarpamp at gmail.com  Sun Nov 22 18:03:17 2015
From: grarpamp at gmail.com (grarpamp)
Date: Sun, 22 Nov 2015 21:03:17 -0500
Subject: US Congress Vows To Criminalize First Amendment in re Paris
In-Reply-To: <n2t730$vs8$1@ger.gmane.org>
References: <CAD2Ti290BQ6N+Pfn4sgfLybmLZeM+TG4dPPMS7sa6-0QmW5EWw@mail.gmail.com>
 <n2t730$vs8$1@ger.gmane.org>
Message-ID: <CAD2Ti2-12e+gpJ=UhHJVXZAUV7JqcDNpp+QRWHj8dGTg75Ks5w@mail.gmail.com>

On Sun, Nov 22, 2015 at 3:03 PM, Bystroushaak
<bystrousak at kitakitsune.org> wrote:
> Related: http://www.theregister.co.uk/2015/11/20/clinton_silicon_valley/

First, Clinton is a fucking witch.

"So we need Silicon Valley not to view government as its adversary."

Second, of course government is the adversary of corporation, as it
is anything else it has power and of regulation over, including you.
To try to claim it's not is a lie. And stupidly fails to recognize the
Three Great Divides... the people, the govt, the corp.

Unfortunately, unlike a lot of SV who resist govt (largely deriving from the
peoples market), some corp have fallen to doing very well at sucking
at the teat of govt... Hello MIC.




From bystrousak at kitakitsune.org  Sun Nov 22 12:03:44 2015
From: bystrousak at kitakitsune.org (Bystroushaak)
Date: Sun, 22 Nov 2015 21:03:44 +0100
Subject: US Congress Vows To Criminalize First Amendment in re Paris
In-Reply-To: <CAD2Ti290BQ6N+Pfn4sgfLybmLZeM+TG4dPPMS7sa6-0QmW5EWw@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAD2Ti290BQ6N+Pfn4sgfLybmLZeM+TG4dPPMS7sa6-0QmW5EWw@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <n2t730$vs8$1@ger.gmane.org>

Related: http://www.theregister.co.uk/2015/11/20/clinton_silicon_valley/




From grarpamp at gmail.com  Sun Nov 22 18:21:56 2015
From: grarpamp at gmail.com (grarpamp)
Date: Sun, 22 Nov 2015 21:21:56 -0500
Subject: [Cryptography] Crackdown on *rental vehicles* expected after
 terrorist attacks
In-Reply-To: <E1a0Y3j-0002mA-0s@elasmtp-banded.atl.sa.earthlink.net>
References: <E1a0Y3j-0002mA-0s@elasmtp-banded.atl.sa.earthlink.net>
Message-ID: <CAD2Ti2-yAEFH2iVoTDKuc+YQfz_WMDFMZvXHROWVzW4WtBLYaQ@mail.gmail.com>

On Sun, Nov 22, 2015 at 12:03 PM, Henry Baker <hbaker1 at pipeline.com> wrote:
> https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/9-young-men-and-their-paths-to-terror-in-paris/2015/11/21/edc19464-8ee6-11e5-934c-a369c80822c2_story.html
>
> 'Several people on the block did see two rental cars used in the attacks'

> At least 40 people were killed, many of them sitting outdoors on a mild November evening.'

Blah blah blah, cry me a fucking river. Terrorism ain't shit, and
ain't shit to be afraid of.
Meanwhile, 1.4 MILLION people died in random car crashes in 2013,
of which 68,000 of them were poor little children.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Traffic_collision

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_causes_of_death_by_rate
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Preventable_causes_of_death

Perspective... get some.




From grarpamp at gmail.com  Sun Nov 22 18:49:03 2015
From: grarpamp at gmail.com (grarpamp)
Date: Sun, 22 Nov 2015 21:49:03 -0500
Subject: Goldbug = RetroShare?
Message-ID: <CAD2Ti28Fc4Bej44w74u0+7-p4cwCF30yTMz33_E3b+bEoxju+A@mail.gmail.com>

Is RetroShare legit? Not had time to analyze and have felts some
similarities / degrees of ties between each at times. Thus asking.




From grarpamp at gmail.com  Sun Nov 22 18:57:32 2015
From: grarpamp at gmail.com (grarpamp)
Date: Sun, 22 Nov 2015 21:57:32 -0500
Subject: Whistleblowers: How NSA Created the 'Largest Failure' In Its History
Message-ID: <CAD2Ti28a042x5ebEbH_FcKiU2GLeC_4BYs9k_2UkCV+r32a=Wg@mail.gmail.com>

http://yro.slashdot.org/story/15/11/22/1359237/whistleblowers-how-nsa-created-the-largest-failure-in-its-history
Former NSA whistleblowers contend that the agency shut down a program
that could have "absolutely prevented" some of the worst terror
attacks in memory. According to the ZDNet story: "Weeks prior to the
September 11 terrorist attacks, a test-bed program dubbed ThinThread
was shut down in favor of a more expensive, privacy-invasive program
that too would see its eventual demise some three years later -- not
before wasting billions of Americans' tax dollars. Four
whistleblowers, including a congressional senior staffer, came out
against the intelligence community they had served, after ThinThread.
designed to modernize the agency's intelligence gathering effort, was
cancelled. Speaking at the premier of a new documentary film A Good
American in New York, which chronicles the rise and demise of the
program, the whistleblowers spoke in support of the program, led by
former NSA technical director William Binney."




From zen at freedbms.net  Sun Nov 22 13:58:54 2015
From: zen at freedbms.net (Zenaan Harkness)
Date: Sun, 22 Nov 2015 21:58:54 +0000
Subject: Western media: "224 Russians dead? They deserved it. 130 French dead?
 OMG the world must grieve!"
Message-ID: <CAOsGNSRUWuDDB1QQdtxFjetXD4DrW_NOo1VT6Ss25wGsHSvz0w@mail.gmail.com>

One particular paragraph from the following opinion piece stands out,
in a sense a brief modern follow on from Solzhenitsyn.

http://russia-insider.com/en/politics/week-seven-russian-intervention-syria-dramatic-surge-intensity/ri11336
"Oh how much I wish most people in the West could understand Russian
read the Russians newspapers, watch Russian talkshows or listen to
Russian conferences! They would see something which they have been
conditioned to consider impossible: far from fearing the West, most
Russians find it crippled with narrow-minded consumerism, devoid from
any real moral or ethical values, fantastically ignorant and
provincial and suffering from terminal infantilism. Even the tiny
pro-Western minority now gave up on defending the West and, at most,
it retorts against the typical tsunami of anti-western arguments
something like “what about us – are we not as bad?” or even “let’s not
sink down to their level!”. It is quite amazing to see that happening
in a country which used to almost worship anything western just 20-30
years ago! I should add that if the most despised and ridiculed
country must, of course, be Poland, France is not far behind in the
list of “most pathetic”, As for the USA, it is the least despised
adversary simply because most Russian respect the US for defending
whatever it perceives has its national interests and for making Europe
it’s “bitch”. The Russians always say that to get something done one
must talk to the USA and waste time with its European colony."




From grarpamp at gmail.com  Sun Nov 22 19:22:24 2015
From: grarpamp at gmail.com (grarpamp)
Date: Sun, 22 Nov 2015 22:22:24 -0500
Subject: Russia bans purchase of foreign non-niche software in Russian
 state agencies
In-Reply-To: <565230E8.3050602@pilobilus.net>
References: <CAOsGNSS0fG4EQO6X2H3HWYsKJKKMbHkBtBPUqP3UBbJWK5b0Yw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAOsGNSQq2uOo-jo50AuT8RydpPCzZAJ9d2ggPNE5cR_RFf5LFw@mail.gmail.com>
 <56509349.8020903@openmailbox.org> <56510F0B.8040504@riseup.net>
 <56511F9D.2040800@openmailbox.org>
 <CAOsGNSTAW8uQWbsGrUCzqvJ=cBWaPWpSsJ=MdDEO8rpMM5A=Ww@mail.gmail.com>
 <5651FF13.4080100@openmailbox.org> <565230E8.3050602@pilobilus.net>
Message-ID: <CAD2Ti2_PKnFZ1Jrzfr9z7-2RfkuzWK8o15KXXFRfh4tAb-Pyhw@mail.gmail.com>

On Sun, Nov 22, 2015 at 4:17 PM, Steve Kinney <admin at pilobilus.net> wrote:
> That's the way both military and commercial contracting usually
> works in the U.S. as well:
> The kickbacks are laundered in various ways;
> extraordinary pay and bonuses for little to no work performed.
> Lots of other scams are also used, but the system described above
> is probably the most widely used.

Just another reason for more leakers and leaks. If people of the world,
especially the US, we're truly informed and aware of the waste of their
taxes and why they're poor, they'd revolt. Even more shameful because
other than the backroom bullshit, the numbers are publicly in their face.

https://www.google.com/search?tbm=isch&q=united+states+budget
http://visual.ly/death-and-taxes-2015
s/usa/country_of_choice/




From grarpamp at gmail.com  Sun Nov 22 19:56:15 2015
From: grarpamp at gmail.com (grarpamp)
Date: Sun, 22 Nov 2015 22:56:15 -0500
Subject: [Cryptography] Burner phone == One Time (i)Pad
In-Reply-To: <9A043F3CF02CD34C8E74AC1594475C73F4B6AA41@uxcn10-5.UoA.auckland.ac.nz>
References: <E1ZzT38-0001vB-Mn@elasmtp-kukur.atl.sa.earthlink.net>
 <9A043F3CF02CD34C8E74AC1594475C73F4B6AA41@uxcn10-5.UoA.auckland.ac.nz>
Message-ID: <CAD2Ti2_wvg_JtNj9ceXi-E=9Q+LwgiOCM6DAucx-X5OCZ5k7PA@mail.gmail.com>

On Fri, Nov 20, 2015 at 5:46 AM, Peter Gutmann
<pgut001 at cs.auckland.ac.nz> wrote:
> that burner phones aren't only used by terrorists.  A friend of mine works for
> a women's shelter and they're a large consumer of burner phones, means of

This supposed legitimization stories is fine and all, but it trashes
your most basic of rights... to use things because you fucking felt
like it, no explanation needed, and anyone else can go jump off a cliff.




From themikebest at gmail.com  Sun Nov 22 19:57:03 2015
From: themikebest at gmail.com (Michael Best)
Date: Sun, 22 Nov 2015 22:57:03 -0500
Subject: Countdown to SHA-3 Collisions
Message-ID: <CANFTA0_x9Nb4Tk4uU5JXSSFCPZc81e_6J8yY4jgNbSqbNFioHg@mail.gmail.com>

The SHA-3 standard was released by NIST in August of this year. I'm
wondering if anyone has done the math on how long until we should no longer
consider it pretty secure enough-ish.

For comparison, here's the 2012 maths for SHA-1:

https://www.schneier.com/blog/archives/2012/10/when_will_we_se.html

> On a NIST-sponsored hash function mailing list
> <http://csrc.nist.gov/groups/ST/hash/email_list.html>, Jesse Walker (from
> Intel; also a member of the Skein <http://www.schneier.com/skein.html>team)
> did some back-of-the-envelope calculations to estimate how long it will be
> before we see a practical collision attack against SHA-1. I'm reprinting
> his analysis here, so it reaches a broader audience.
> According to E-BASH <http://bench.cr.yp.to/ebash.html>, the cost of one
> block of a SHA-1 operation on already deployed commodity microprocessors is
> about 214 cycles. If Stevens' attack
> <http://2012.sharcs.org/slides/stevens.pdf> of 260 SHA-1 operations
> serves as the baseline, then finding a collision costs about 214 * 260 ~ 2
> 74cycles.
> A core today provides about 231 cycles/sec; the state of the art is 8 = 23 cores
> per processor for a total of 23 * 231 = 234 cycles/sec. A server
> typically has 4 processors, increasing the total to 22 * 234 = 236 cycles/sec.
> Since there are about 225 sec/year, this means one server delivers about 2
> 25 * 236 = 261 cycles per year, which we can call a "server year."
> There is ample evidence that Moore's law will continue through the mid
> 2020s. Hence the number of doublings in processor power we can expect
> between now and 2021 is:
> 3/1.5 = 2 times by 2015 (3 = 2015 - 2012)
> 6/1.5 = 4 times by 2018 (6 = 2018 - 2012)
> 9/1.5 = 6 times by 2021 (9 = 2021 - 2012)
> So a commodity server year should be about:
> 261 cycles/year in 2012
> 22 * 261 = 263 cycles/year by 2015
> 24 * 261 = 265 cycles/year by 2018
> 26 * 261 = 267 cycles/year by 2021
> Therefore, on commodity hardware, Stevens' attack should cost
> approximately:
> 274 / 261 = 213 server years in 2012
> 274 / 263 = 211 server years by 2015
> 274 / 265 = 29 server years by 2018
> 274 / 267 = 27 server years by 2021
> Today Amazon rents compute time on commodity servers for about $0.04 /
> hour ~ $350 /year. Assume compute rental fees remain fixed while server
> capacity keeps pace with Moore's law. Then, since log2(350) ~ 8.4 the
> cost of the attack will be approximately:
> 213 * 28.4 = 221.4 ~ $2.77M in 2012
> 211 * 28.4 = 219.4 ~ $700K by 2015
> 29 * 28.4 = 217.4 ~ $173K by 2018
> 27 * 28.4 = 215.4 ~ $43K by 2021
> A collision attack is therefore well within the range of what an organized
> crime syndicate can practically budget by 2018, and a university research
> project by 2021.
> Since this argument only takes into account commodity hardware and not
> instruction set improvements (e.g., ARM 8 specifies a SHA-1 instruction),
> other commodity computing devices with even greater processing power (e.g.,
> GPUs), and custom hardware, the need to transition from SHA-1 for collision
> resistance functions is probably more urgent than this back-of-the-envelope
> analysis suggests.
> Any increase in the number of cores per CPU, or the number of CPUs per
> server, also affects these calculations. Also, any improvements in
> cryptanalysis will further reduce the complexity of this attack.
> The point is that we in the community need to start the migration away
> from SHA-1 and to SHA-2/SHA-3 now.
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From grarpamp at gmail.com  Sun Nov 22 20:17:52 2015
From: grarpamp at gmail.com (grarpamp)
Date: Sun, 22 Nov 2015 23:17:52 -0500
Subject: [Cryptography] WSJ: WH wants to meet Techies in DC re encryption
In-Reply-To: <E1ZzqKJ-0003R1-T4@elasmtp-spurfowl.atl.sa.earthlink.net>
References: <E1ZzqKJ-0003R1-T4@elasmtp-spurfowl.atl.sa.earthlink.net>
Message-ID: <CAD2Ti28yT4e7PpM3gan7+gGu84=Bdc72SBBOsH0PZiXma0FKnQ@mail.gmail.com>

On Fri, Nov 20, 2015 at 1:22 PM, Henry Baker <hbaker1 at pipeline.com> wrote:
> http://www.wsj.com/articles/paris-attacks-fan-encryption-debate-1447987407?mod=rss_Technology
> http://www.wsj.com/articles/fbi-stymied-by-islamic-states-use-of-encryption-director-says-1447866592
> http://www.wsj.com/articles/nsa-apple-chiefs-decode-encryption-views-1445318890
> http://www.wsj.com/articles/hacker-killed-by-drone-was-secret-weapon-1440718560

> “There is a solution out there and there’s a way to get to it but this isn’t the month to be starting down that path,” said James Lewis, a cybersecurity expert and former Clinton administration official
> He and the Center for Strategic and International Studies, where he is a senior fellow, had planned a forum on encryption policy this fall.  After the Paris attacks, he postponed it.

Wtf is this, there's no solution, it's all or nothing.

> Since Paris, Sens. John McCain, (R, Ariz.), Dianne Feinstein, (D, Calif.) and other lawmakers have said they want to ensure investigators can access the content of encrypted communications.
> Mr. McCain has said he wants to pursue legislation.

Pretty lame position for a supposedly brave POW Nam Vet to take.

> One technology executive acknowledged mixed feelings.  “While I continue to feel that outlawing end-to-end encryption would be both ineffective and a slippery slope for society, I’m also aware that I have limited knowledge of all the scary things happening in the world today,” said Ted Livingston, chief executive of Kik Interactive Inc

Governments should give full awareness, including most importantly of
their own doings. Unfortunately, they refuse to. Because their own
doings are far more scary than any ragged band of street thugs.
Including creating the thugs in the first place.




From grarpamp at gmail.com  Sun Nov 22 20:22:13 2015
From: grarpamp at gmail.com (grarpamp)
Date: Sun, 22 Nov 2015 23:22:13 -0500
Subject: [Cryptography] WSJ: WH wants to meet Techies in DC re encryption
In-Reply-To: <6E0C8034-D9BF-4A20-8BB9-DC2999777193@lrw.com>
References: <E1ZzqKJ-0003R1-T4@elasmtp-spurfowl.atl.sa.earthlink.net>
 <6E0C8034-D9BF-4A20-8BB9-DC2999777193@lrw.com>
Message-ID: <CAD2Ti28+eJxdWkgzQos0eoc+n9Pncda7=eBRXCKY+rEgtO2OaQ@mail.gmail.com>

On Fri, Nov 20, 2015 at 3:19 PM, Jerry Leichter <leichter at lrw.com> wrote:
> Let them come for our encrypted phones and they'll be coming for our guns next! Stop them now!
>
> [Only half a :-) - get that meme spreading and just watch support for legislation on this matter splinter.]

Subject: Reaching the Sheeple, Building a Cpunk Symbiot Army
https://cpunks.org/pipermail/cypherpunks/2015-November/010895.html




From grarpamp at gmail.com  Sun Nov 22 20:32:19 2015
From: grarpamp at gmail.com (grarpamp)
Date: Sun, 22 Nov 2015 23:32:19 -0500
Subject: [Cryptography] WSJ: WH wants to meet Techies in DC re encryption
In-Reply-To: <18F6B907-740C-47AC-8359-9F25BE59509E@lrw.com>
References: <E1ZzqKJ-0003R1-T4@elasmtp-spurfowl.atl.sa.earthlink.net>
 <6E0C8034-D9BF-4A20-8BB9-DC2999777193@lrw.com>
 <5CA03D0D-3E74-4054-9F23-822A881AAC45@sympatico.ca>
 <18F6B907-740C-47AC-8359-9F25BE59509E@lrw.com>
Message-ID: <CAD2Ti298MZZeMi2q3=P=+4-0mpWEwdd3mCghJ=F1pp=mGPQMxg@mail.gmail.com>

On Sat, Nov 21, 2015 at 12:52 PM, Jerry Leichter <leichter at lrw.com> wrote:
> the point of the attacks on cryptography have nothing to do with *their* accuracy.  Truth and effectiveness in political debate have all too little to do with each other.
>
> Remember when Microsoft used to attack Linux for being anti-capitalist?  Someone - I forget who - proposed using Microsoft marketing techniques against them:  Every time anyone who wanted to help the campaign mentioned "the Windows operating system", they should *always* say "the deeply flawed Windows operating system".  Repeat a phrase often enough and it becomes part of common knowledge.  This is how marketing works; this is how politics works (not that it's easy to draw a line between them any more).
>
> The fact is, LE *is* trying to get the government to dictate how to build the products sold to you and me and all the liberals and all the civil libertarians and all the NRA members and all the Trump followers and everyone else out there.  And they are trying to dictate that they be built in ways that *hurt us as individuals*, in the name of what *they claim* is some greater good.  Stopping that isn't going to happen by cryptographers talking to other cryptographers about what a dumb idea "golden keys" are.  The most effective way of stopping would be convincing those who are the natural audience for the "help LE stop the bad guys" pitch to instead see the issue the same way they see gun control (also pushed as a way to "help the LE stop the bad guys").
>
> This is politics now, hence not really appropriate for this list - though these political decisions will have profound impacts on how we will be allowed to deploy crypto, so *some* discussion is unavoidable.
>                                                         -- Jerry

It's entirely appropriate and relavant because the crypto people and tech / code
world in general are too head down at the keyboard and haven't yet figured out
how stand up and win (forever), nor how to go AFK for a minute and and partner
with various potential armies. There's only so much you can do with a keyboard,
the rest awaits in the real world.

Subject: Reaching the Sheeple, Building a Cpunk Symbiot Army
https://cpunks.org/pipermail/cypherpunks/2015-November/010895.html




From grarpamp at gmail.com  Mon Nov 23 03:45:22 2015
From: grarpamp at gmail.com (grarpamp)
Date: Mon, 23 Nov 2015 06:45:22 -0500
Subject: Bitcoin addresses NH Government
Message-ID: <CAD2Ti28nx5q-py-5558ktsJPgoyU1f73Ywu0bbU=zussYyTs3Q@mail.gmail.com>

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kQI6dMnIw6w
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-S2u85Cib6I




From tpetru at gmail.com  Sun Nov 22 23:38:32 2015
From: tpetru at gmail.com (Tomas Overdrive Petru)
Date: Mon, 23 Nov 2015 08:38:32 +0100
Subject: Russia bans purchase of foreign non-niche software in Russian
 state agencies
In-Reply-To: <CAOsGNSQq2uOo-jo50AuT8RydpPCzZAJ9d2ggPNE5cR_RFf5LFw@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAOsGNSS0fG4EQO6X2H3HWYsKJKKMbHkBtBPUqP3UBbJWK5b0Yw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAOsGNSQq2uOo-jo50AuT8RydpPCzZAJ9d2ggPNE5cR_RFf5LFw@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <5652C278.3030308@gmail.com>



On 21.11.15 10:55, Zenaan Harkness wrote:
> Another article on the same topic. Although I like the phrase
> "complete sovereignty of information" I think it is vague - seems they
> mean "Russian government sovereignty over all domestic information
> processing" or something, which of course will have positive flow on
> effects, at least in the medium to longer term, for the domestic
> Russian software industry. Way to go Russia! More countries should act
> in such a protectionist way. What's the point of a country if it
> doesn't look after its own citizens and national interests?
This happened once in Czech Republic, too. Totalitarian government
banned all electronic software and books from "capitalistic" countries.
It ended with Czech republic 20y after mainstream industry and science
before revolution.
Of course it given totalitarian government another reason why and what
for punish its citizens.
Who was smart and courageous tried to emigrate therefore country lost
most of good scientists, too.
So much for interests of your own citizens.
BTW at that time it was invention of Soviets same way.

Regards,
- Over


-- 
“Borders I have never seen one. But I have heard they exist in the minds of some people.”        
  ―     Thor Heyerdahl 


Telegram................... at over23
facebook chat..............overdrive23 at chat.facebook.com
facebook...................facebook.com/overdrive23
projects...................https://brmlab.cz/user/overdrive
twitter....................https://twitter.com/#!/over2393
last.fm....................http://www.last.fm/user/overdrive23
GnuPG key FingerPrint......08EA E4DC EF85 0F02 9267 5B48 2E58 6902 C5F8 794C
Public key ................http://overdrive.dronezone.eu/overdrive.txt


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From Rayzer at riseup.net  Mon Nov 23 09:56:24 2015
From: Rayzer at riseup.net (Razer)
Date: Mon, 23 Nov 2015 09:56:24 -0800
Subject: [Cryptography] Burner phone == One Time (i)Pad
In-Reply-To: <CAD2Ti2_wvg_JtNj9ceXi-E=9Q+LwgiOCM6DAucx-X5OCZ5k7PA@mail.gmail.com>
References: <E1ZzT38-0001vB-Mn@elasmtp-kukur.atl.sa.earthlink.net>
 <9A043F3CF02CD34C8E74AC1594475C73F4B6AA41@uxcn10-5.UoA.auckland.ac.nz>
 <CAD2Ti2_wvg_JtNj9ceXi-E=9Q+LwgiOCM6DAucx-X5OCZ5k7PA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <56535348.20009@riseup.net>

In the US, at this time, Anyone can buy a throwaway and use any alias
they'd like to register the service. Just use the usual security online
when registering it and it's pretty anonymous... except ofc, your
location and your voiceprint (albeit cheap cellies have the shittiest
audio. Dunno whether the feds can get a usable voiceprint).

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From zen at freedbms.net  Mon Nov 23 02:13:39 2015
From: zen at freedbms.net (Zenaan Harkness)
Date: Mon, 23 Nov 2015 10:13:39 +0000
Subject: Russia bans purchase of foreign non-niche software in Russian
 state agencies
In-Reply-To: <5652C278.3030308@gmail.com>
References: <CAOsGNSS0fG4EQO6X2H3HWYsKJKKMbHkBtBPUqP3UBbJWK5b0Yw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAOsGNSQq2uOo-jo50AuT8RydpPCzZAJ9d2ggPNE5cR_RFf5LFw@mail.gmail.com>
 <5652C278.3030308@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAOsGNSSk1fLAN28rEqXXDbAZ2JenwQ7OQLPcnZdh79w14hdEPA@mail.gmail.com>

On 11/23/15, Tomas Overdrive Petru <tpetru at gmail.com> wrote:
> On 21.11.15 10:55, Zenaan Harkness wrote:
>> Another article on the same topic. Although I like the phrase
>> "complete sovereignty of information" I think it is vague - seems they
>> mean "Russian government sovereignty over all domestic information
>> processing" or something, which of course will have positive flow on
>> effects, at least in the medium to longer term, for the domestic
>> Russian software industry. Way to go Russia! More countries should act
>> in such a protectionist way. What's the point of a country if it
>> doesn't look after its own citizens and national interests?
> This happened once in Czech Republic, too. Totalitarian government
> banned all electronic software and books from "capitalistic" countries.
> It ended with Czech republic 20y after mainstream industry and science
> before revolution.
> Of course it given totalitarian government another reason why and what
> for punish its citizens.
> Who was smart and courageous tried to emigrate therefore country lost
> most of good scientists, too.
> So much for interests of your own citizens.
> BTW at that time it was invention of Soviets same way.

Banning rights (eg to purchase particular software) of private
citizens is perhaps not the smartest thing for any government to do,
soviet/ communist or otherwise - the heavy hand (always?) produces
problems.

I agree there are many typical (and actual) problems of government. It
is good to separate different problems in our minds, so we can attack
(if we have will) the problems properly, and so maximise the benefits
to ourselves and to our country.

That is: it is right for a government to spend the peoples' money
(taxes) only on software which the people will thereafter have an
indefinite right to use (libre software, even if 'improperly' sold
with deception of license). And it is right for a government to
maximise the spending of its peoples' money on software which is
developed and or serviced in any way by the people of that country -
maximise internal velocity of the country's wealth. This is economic
rationalism at national level.

This is the softer hand - encouragement by the carrot of money.

Transparency problems? "Hidden single vendor" problems? Other
problems? These problems will happen for foreign proprietary software
as well... they are separate problems. Solve each problem, but don't
stop your government from promoting something good with government
contracts/ government spending, just because there are additional
problems to solve. It might sound funny, but Russia is not Czech, and
Putin is not that stupid. This particular policy of Russian government
does not decrease individual/ private rights like the heavy handed
Czech republic example you give, and this Russian policy correctly
tries to improve on government spending of Russian taxes - it is a
correct approach, within the boundary of existing Russian government.

---
Perhaps find a talented young teenager who likes creative graphics
software and designs a desktop skin for e.g. Debian GNU/Linux, and
help it to become popular, make a hero of this young designer, because
people like heroes. Probably needs to look like Windows XP :)  (so
that people are at least partly familiar with it), or perhaps Mac.
When I install Debian for people, I usually install XFCE desktop with
full top menu bar and Cairo Dock, libre office, tor browser/ firefox,
chromium and VLC. This covers most needs of most people - advanced
users have to help themselves a bit more, but less advanced users only
need nice and relatively simple GUI, which XFCE+CairoDock provides.

Perhaps provide this type of setup as a services company to government
departments - start with municipal or smaller level, and build your
company up from there. Provide some "mandatory training" to
council/govt staff, employ local computer geeks (perhaps yourself to
start) - make snazzy PDF brochure. Franchise/ expand to other areas in
your city, then other cities. Keep respectful public profile on
important mailing lists so you can solve your client problems quickly.
Promote the employment that you have created.

There are many opportunities. Russian government just made it a little
easier to take advantage of some opportunities at the same time as
building your company on free libre software. This is a very good
thing. A door has been opened. Walk through it.

Regards,
Zenaan




From Rayzer at riseup.net  Mon Nov 23 13:32:51 2015
From: Rayzer at riseup.net (Razer)
Date: Mon, 23 Nov 2015 13:32:51 -0800
Subject: Goldbug = RetroShare?
In-Reply-To: <1587298.9vU1CXmi5e@lapuntu>
References: <CAD2Ti28Fc4Bej44w74u0+7-p4cwCF30yTMz33_E3b+bEoxju+A@mail.gmail.com>
 <1587298.9vU1CXmi5e@lapuntu>
Message-ID: <56538603.6000303@riseup.net>

On 11/23/2015 12:59 PM, rysiek wrote:
> Dnia niedziela, 22 listopada 2015 21:49:03 grarpamp pisze:
>> Is RetroShare legit? Not had time to analyze and have felts some
>> similarities / degrees of ties between each at times. Thus asking.
> Been using it for a short while, was surprised how well its VoIP worked. Now 
> moved on to Tox, RS seems... bloated.
>
> I remember there were some minor issues, like using SHA-1 or something, can't 
> find it now. Nothing Goldbug-like, though, at least not on my radar.
>

Have RS. The learning curve isn't exactly gentle and the interface
'clunky' like the old special purpose browsers used by some educational
library sites used to be. You have to learn how to use it, and unless
you have a number of friends using it, it seems, as rysiek wrote,
bloated. Tox works, but everyone is whining about "Federation" as being
insecure. I have Ricochet up and running. The fonts in the message area
really suck (and you can barely read your own address unless you paste
it to a notepad) but they say it's the most secure thing going...

RR

ricochet:rhbj7saaf3u6ke6n

Tox Id:
E611C7673C4C9C84C7F53BD8A2DF46C3131CB260E5758392B6B22FE18072C57569661208F92E

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From juan.g71 at gmail.com  Mon Nov 23 10:53:27 2015
From: juan.g71 at gmail.com (juan)
Date: Mon, 23 Nov 2015 15:53:27 -0300
Subject: US Congress Vows To Criminalize First Amendment in re Paris
In-Reply-To: <CAD2Ti2-12e+gpJ=UhHJVXZAUV7JqcDNpp+QRWHj8dGTg75Ks5w@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAD2Ti290BQ6N+Pfn4sgfLybmLZeM+TG4dPPMS7sa6-0QmW5EWw@mail.gmail.com>
 <n2t730$vs8$1@ger.gmane.org>
 <CAD2Ti2-12e+gpJ=UhHJVXZAUV7JqcDNpp+QRWHj8dGTg75Ks5w@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <56535ef1.1c15370a.2dd46.47e3@mx.google.com>

On Sun, 22 Nov 2015 21:03:17 -0500
grarpamp <grarpamp at gmail.com> wrote:

> On Sun, Nov 22, 2015 at 3:03 PM, Bystroushaak
> <bystrousak at kitakitsune.org> wrote:
> > Related:
> > http://www.theregister.co.uk/2015/11/20/clinton_silicon_valley/
> 
> First, Clinton is a fucking witch.

	that's pretty insulting to witches who actually were outcasts
	persecuted by the jew-christian mafia.


> 
> "So we need Silicon Valley not to view government as its adversary."
> 
> Second, of course government is the adversary of corporation, 


	really?


> as it
> is anything else it has power and of regulation over, including you.
> To try to claim it's not is a lie. And stupidly fails to recognize the
> Three Great Divides... the people, the govt, the corp.


	Not really following...If anything, The Great Divide is
	government/corporations on one hand and 'the people' on the
	other. 

> 
> Unfortunately, unlike a lot of SV who resist govt (largely deriving
> from the peoples market), some corp 

	some?
	
> have fallen to doing very well at
> sucking at the teat of govt... Hello MIC.




From rysiek at hackerspace.pl  Mon Nov 23 12:59:53 2015
From: rysiek at hackerspace.pl (rysiek)
Date: Mon, 23 Nov 2015 21:59:53 +0100
Subject: Goldbug = RetroShare?
In-Reply-To: <CAD2Ti28Fc4Bej44w74u0+7-p4cwCF30yTMz33_E3b+bEoxju+A@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAD2Ti28Fc4Bej44w74u0+7-p4cwCF30yTMz33_E3b+bEoxju+A@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <1587298.9vU1CXmi5e@lapuntu>

Dnia niedziela, 22 listopada 2015 21:49:03 grarpamp pisze:
> Is RetroShare legit? Not had time to analyze and have felts some
> similarities / degrees of ties between each at times. Thus asking.

Been using it for a short while, was surprised how well its VoIP worked. Now 
moved on to Tox, RS seems... bloated.

I remember there were some minor issues, like using SHA-1 or something, can't 
find it now. Nothing Goldbug-like, though, at least not on my radar.

-- 
Pozdrawiam,
Michał "rysiek" Woźniak

Zmieniam klucz GPG :: http://rys.io/pl/147
GPG Key Transition :: http://rys.io/en/147
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From rysiek at hackerspace.pl  Mon Nov 23 13:04:09 2015
From: rysiek at hackerspace.pl (rysiek)
Date: Mon, 23 Nov 2015 22:04:09 +0100
Subject: Privacy Wiki
In-Reply-To: <CAD2Ti2_LEDRFiEa46bRh4q06qUweSWdE_XeFWq+_LLGNYyK7NA@mail.gmail.com>
References: <564CF214.3020904@gmail.com>
 <CAEm6Kb+u0LWzQUsyfAfiz_2mc2n6mhp0WFkgvrDG+B47xCkX6g@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAD2Ti2_LEDRFiEa46bRh4q06qUweSWdE_XeFWq+_LLGNYyK7NA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <3288598.9FuDk5iv8s@lapuntu>

Dnia czwartek, 19 listopada 2015 02:05:46 grarpamp pisze:
> Before scouring the net to find whatever third party app you can install,
> review what comes native with your OS for applicability.
> Windows - bitlocker
> FreeBSD - geli
> Linux - dm-crypt

+1 on this.

By the way, anybody has news on the pacthes that were to allow setting up a 
"KILL IT NOW" password for LUKS (i.e. a special password that would 
permanently cripple the container when provided)?

-- 
Pozdrawiam,
Michał "rysiek" Woźniak

Zmieniam klucz GPG :: http://rys.io/pl/147
GPG Key Transition :: http://rys.io/en/147
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From zen at freedbms.net  Mon Nov 23 14:37:26 2015
From: zen at freedbms.net (Zenaan Harkness)
Date: Mon, 23 Nov 2015 22:37:26 +0000
Subject: Reaching the Sheeple, Building a Cpunk Symbiot Army
In-Reply-To: <1814839.EPlTVgMtup@lapuntu>
References: <CAD2Ti2-M+yr5KpfGnB07ZqHnVVWbj3T_rdjzAvr3Jzz4uUL8sg@mail.gmail.com>
 <564aa0d2.f71f8c0a.66867.ffff8ff6@mx.google.com>
 <1814839.EPlTVgMtup@lapuntu>
Message-ID: <CAOsGNSTsCgWwkGAhfvtahFOLT5ipkXBuofG=jkaKVLJAJ5ohrQ@mail.gmail.com>

On 11/23/15, rysiek <rysiek at hackerspace.pl> wrote:
> This is the thing -- apart from providing reasons, we must start providing
> actual working tools. And I mean working for Jack and Jill, not for people
> on
> this list.
>
> Please do not even let me start on Enigmail and Mailvelope. Tox, on the
> other
> hand, seems to be something genuinely useful. Simple and effective. We need
> more Tox and less Mailvelope.

Another advantage of building a group of users, is it facilitates
segue in the future - from Tox to Google+ for example. I know, I know,
great example, I can't stop smiling I'm so pleased.

>From this perspective, -something- is much better than nothing. TBB
bread is an easy way to start a sheep. For those who want some tin
foil, give them TrueCrypt cake.

Ideally encourage your wether to encourage/ install for others.




From zen at freedbms.net  Mon Nov 23 14:55:38 2015
From: zen at freedbms.net (Zenaan Harkness)
Date: Mon, 23 Nov 2015 22:55:38 +0000
Subject: Recent Numbers Station Activity COLLAPSE (GnuRadio SDR)
In-Reply-To: <5068487.YvymtqR5GM@lapuntu>
References: <CAD2Ti2_X03uysW9CocReUScuuA-rWP+6o4eN+rWTDyEfBoLDTw@mail.gmail.com>
 <5068487.YvymtqR5GM@lapuntu>
Message-ID: <CAOsGNSTHPmpuoq7vaq-y873y3Dzo=GCquOGyUYAPLZEQ8m9-CQ@mail.gmail.com>

On 11/23/15, rysiek <rysiek at hackerspace.pl> wrote:
> Dnia poniedziałek, 16 listopada 2015 22:14:27 grarpamp pisze:
...
>> Message Four from "FLATTOP!" (ANOTHER STATION NOT HEARD IN YEARS!):
>> http://vocaroo.com/i/s01smhgkyNDL
>
> Damn, this is interesting. Any more info on this? Any new transmissions?

Let's thank Dr Strangelove for his message.

Perhaps the real reason France is jumping in with Russia? (make
America think twice before doing something really stupid like, IDK,
starting a proxy war with Russia - I think Russia has announced that
it recently put its military on nuclear alert, and readiness training
of their nuclear crews, just in case.)

Friendly Reminder: Russia Has Nuclear Weapons
http://russia-insider.com/en/2015/01/23/2670
"Jan 23, 2015 .. Russia's Nuclear Forces performed a surprise
readiness drill on Tuesday"

Putin Warns "We Were Ready" to Use Nukes to Secure Crimea
http://russia-insider.com/en/2015/03/17/4570

Why a US and a Russian General Are Suddenly Very Worried About Nuclear War
http://russia-insider.com/en/why-american-and-russian-general-are-suddenly-very-worried-about-nuclear-war/5941

The Pentagon Goes Nuclear on Russia
http://russia-insider.com/en/military/pentagon-goes-nuclear-russia/ri8330
"
Putin knows extremely well how dangerous is this posturing. That’s why
he emphasized that the US unilateral withdrawal from the 1972
Anti-Ballistic Missile (ABM) Treaty – which established that neither
the US nor the USSR would try to neutralize each other’s nuclear
deterrence by building an anti-missile shield – is pushing the world
towards a new Cold War; “This in fact pushes us to a new round of the
arms race, because it changes the global security system.”
"

And plenty more...




From sdrinf at gmail.com  Mon Nov 23 23:01:31 2015
From: sdrinf at gmail.com (Silicon Dragon)
Date: Mon, 23 Nov 2015 23:01:31 -0800
Subject: Privacy Wiki
In-Reply-To: <3288598.9FuDk5iv8s@lapuntu>
References: <564CF214.3020904@gmail.com>
 <CAEm6Kb+u0LWzQUsyfAfiz_2mc2n6mhp0WFkgvrDG+B47xCkX6g@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAD2Ti2_LEDRFiEa46bRh4q06qUweSWdE_XeFWq+_LLGNYyK7NA@mail.gmail.com>
 <3288598.9FuDk5iv8s@lapuntu>
Message-ID: <CANuYx8QNRFyzsVsPquwSooFa-mm6Teb=P0xD65HcbHRPfkt3sQ@mail.gmail.com>

I suspect Tomas' original concern was regarding lack of ongoing support; as
we've all seen, things are moving at a fast peace in security, which might
open it open to vulnerabilities down the line.
I welcome all, and any alternatives, or forks.

On Mon, Nov 23, 2015 at 1:04 PM, rysiek <rysiek at hackerspace.pl> wrote:

> Dnia czwartek, 19 listopada 2015 02:05:46 grarpamp pisze:
> > Before scouring the net to find whatever third party app you can install,
> > review what comes native with your OS for applicability.
> > Windows - bitlocker
> > FreeBSD - geli
> > Linux - dm-crypt
>
> +1 on this.
>
> By the way, anybody has news on the pacthes that were to allow setting up a
> "KILL IT NOW" password for LUKS (i.e. a special password that would
> permanently cripple the container when provided)?
>
> --
> Pozdrawiam,
> Michał "rysiek" Woźniak
>
> Zmieniam klucz GPG :: http://rys.io/pl/147
> GPG Key Transition :: http://rys.io/en/147
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From rysiek at hackerspace.pl  Mon Nov 23 14:10:24 2015
From: rysiek at hackerspace.pl (rysiek)
Date: Mon, 23 Nov 2015 23:10:24 +0100
Subject: FCC comes to CCC? "No GSM test network at 32C3"
In-Reply-To: <F6BC8146-63B7-4AC8-B6CA-22AEBC781B2A@openmailbox.org>
References: <CAJVRA1TbBrdcyVquLpmPSh8s=-8tMZxe_P7MLZy1By5RNUQ6rA@mail.gmail.com>
 <564CF075.2060505@gmail.com>
 <F6BC8146-63B7-4AC8-B6CA-22AEBC781B2A@openmailbox.org>
Message-ID: <4573265.SLWpnk79re@lapuntu>

Dnia środa, 18 listopada 2015 21:58:57 oshwm pisze:
> You might meet some of them but you won't know its them :D

This. :D
Not saying I will be there, but NoisySquare is always fun.

-- 
Pozdrawiam,
Michał "rysiek" Woźniak

Zmieniam klucz GPG :: http://rys.io/pl/147
GPG Key Transition :: http://rys.io/en/147
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From rysiek at hackerspace.pl  Mon Nov 23 14:13:10 2015
From: rysiek at hackerspace.pl (rysiek)
Date: Mon, 23 Nov 2015 23:13:10 +0100
Subject: Recent Numbers Station Activity COLLAPSE (GnuRadio SDR)
In-Reply-To: <CAD2Ti2_X03uysW9CocReUScuuA-rWP+6o4eN+rWTDyEfBoLDTw@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAD2Ti2_X03uysW9CocReUScuuA-rWP+6o4eN+rWTDyEfBoLDTw@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <5068487.YvymtqR5GM@lapuntu>

Dnia poniedziałek, 16 listopada 2015 22:14:27 grarpamp pisze:
> https://www.reddit.com/r/conspiracy/comments/3oswdt/unusual_happenings_with_
> inactive_radio_stations/
> 
> On SKYKING (8992 or 11175 kHz USB) a call sign called "COLLAPSE" which
> has not been heard since 2001 has just broadcasted 4 messages to
> numbered stations/units in the last few minutes.
> 
> "FUXEBOX" and "Reykjavik," have also broadcast in the last few days
> and they haven't been heard since 1991 (collapse of the Soviet Union).
> 
> "COLLAPSE" has sent 3 messages in the last few minutes.
> 
> COLLAPSE message one: http://vocaroo.com/i/s1hGyA2GR6HI
> 
> Collapse message Two: http://vocaroo.com/i/s1ETZ3l9fp0G
> 
> Collapse message Three: http://vocaroo.com/i/s03ZI6ui70LY
> 
> Message Four from "FLATTOP!" (ANOTHER STATION NOT HEARD IN YEARS!):
> http://vocaroo.com/i/s01smhgkyNDL

Damn, this is interesting. Any more info on this? Any new transmissions?

-- 
Pozdrawiam,
Michał "rysiek" Woźniak

Zmieniam klucz GPG :: http://rys.io/pl/147
GPG Key Transition :: http://rys.io/en/147
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From rysiek at hackerspace.pl  Mon Nov 23 14:15:40 2015
From: rysiek at hackerspace.pl (rysiek)
Date: Mon, 23 Nov 2015 23:15:40 +0100
Subject: Reaching the Sheeple, Building a Cpunk Symbiot Army
In-Reply-To: <CAD2Ti28u_JbW3-o1BhPOhnTy2USB5W+FTErAbh41XUXP3rO7QQ@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAD2Ti2-M+yr5KpfGnB07ZqHnVVWbj3T_rdjzAvr3Jzz4uUL8sg@mail.gmail.com>
 <564A4B16.9090208@openmailbox.org>
 <CAD2Ti28u_JbW3-o1BhPOhnTy2USB5W+FTErAbh41XUXP3rO7QQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <10976541.U0AqfthIgQ@lapuntu>

Dnia poniedziałek, 16 listopada 2015 22:20:01 grarpamp pisze:
> On Mon, Nov 16, 2015 at 4:31 PM, oshwm <oshwm at openmailbox.org> wrote:
> > On 16/11/15 21:01, rysiek wrote:
> >> Dnia niedziela, 15 listopada 2015 01:53:13 grarpamp pisze:
> >>> Can anyone point out a successful strategy that has been used for
> >>> the cpunk to reach and enlighten them such that they make some sort
> >>> of change for themselves, or act to change their world?
> >> 
> >> Cryptoparties.
> > 
> > Except no-one but motivated ppl go to those, the problem is one of
> > getting ppl to the point where they want to attend a cryptoparty :)
> 
> Agreed. You would have to hold them in sheeple's libraries or
> churches and so on where they are already there as oppurtunity
> to drop in the room. Not make them drive some special trip to
> foreign place.

So hold them in sheeple libraries and churches. Warsaw Hackerspace organised 
CryptoParties in the Museum of Modern Art in Warsaw, at a Polish Chamber of 
Commerce conference, in schools, in libraries, etc.

This seems much more worthy of energy than finding excuses.

-- 
Pozdrawiam,
Michał "rysiek" Woźniak

Zmieniam klucz GPG :: http://rys.io/pl/147
GPG Key Transition :: http://rys.io/en/147
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From rysiek at hackerspace.pl  Mon Nov 23 14:19:57 2015
From: rysiek at hackerspace.pl (rysiek)
Date: Mon, 23 Nov 2015 23:19:57 +0100
Subject: Reaching the Sheeple, Building a Cpunk Symbiot Army
In-Reply-To: <564aa0d2.f71f8c0a.66867.ffff8ff6@mx.google.com>
References: <CAD2Ti2-M+yr5KpfGnB07ZqHnVVWbj3T_rdjzAvr3Jzz4uUL8sg@mail.gmail.com>
 <564aa0d2.f71f8c0a.66867.ffff8ff6@mx.google.com>
Message-ID: <1814839.EPlTVgMtup@lapuntu>

Dnia wtorek, 17 listopada 2015 00:43:52 juan pisze:
> On Sun, 15 Nov 2015 01:53:13 -0500
> 
> grarpamp <grarpamp at gmail.com> wrote:
> > On Sat, Nov 14, 2015 at 4:53 AM, rysiek <rysiek at hackerspace.pl> wrote:
> > > Dnia poniedziałek, 9 listopada 2015 22:41:16 Tomas Overdrive Petru
> > > 
> > > pisze:
> > >> Really? So what is purpose of this thread if I can ask? To
> > >> complain that ordinary people are sheep?
> > > 
> > > I am slowly starting to think that this is the purpose of this
> > > whole *list*.
> > 
> > Cpunk care about the sheeple, and their gripe is a legit
> > frustration... sheeple seem to be biologically unreachable
> 
> 	The sheep metaphor is misleading. We are actually dealing with a
> 	cultural problem.

People are sufficiently concerned about surveillance, but they really are not 
offered any practical, useful ways of dealing with that. So they ignore it and 
go on as normal.

This is the thing -- apart from providing reasons, we must start providing 
actual working tools. And I mean working for Jack and Jill, not for people on 
this list.

Please do not even let me start on Enigmail and Mailvelope. Tox, on the other 
hand, seems to be something genuinely useful. Simple and effective. We need 
more Tox and less Mailvelope.

-- 
Pozdrawiam,
Michał "rysiek" Woźniak

Zmieniam klucz GPG :: http://rys.io/pl/147
GPG Key Transition :: http://rys.io/en/147
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From rysiek at hackerspace.pl  Mon Nov 23 14:22:38 2015
From: rysiek at hackerspace.pl (rysiek)
Date: Mon, 23 Nov 2015 23:22:38 +0100
Subject: Goldbug = RetroShare?
In-Reply-To: <56538603.6000303@riseup.net>
References: <CAD2Ti28Fc4Bej44w74u0+7-p4cwCF30yTMz33_E3b+bEoxju+A@mail.gmail.com>
 <1587298.9vU1CXmi5e@lapuntu> <56538603.6000303@riseup.net>
Message-ID: <3502794.vlyhWFPaCK@lapuntu>

Dnia poniedziałek, 23 listopada 2015 13:32:51 Razer pisze:
> On 11/23/2015 12:59 PM, rysiek wrote:
> > Dnia niedziela, 22 listopada 2015 21:49:03 grarpamp pisze:
> >> Is RetroShare legit? Not had time to analyze and have felts some
> >> similarities / degrees of ties between each at times. Thus asking.
> > 
> > Been using it for a short while, was surprised how well its VoIP worked.
> > Now moved on to Tox, RS seems... bloated.
> > 
> > I remember there were some minor issues, like using SHA-1 or something,
> > can't find it now. Nothing Goldbug-like, though, at least not on my
> > radar.
> Have RS. The learning curve isn't exactly gentle and the interface
> 'clunky' like the old special purpose browsers used by some educational
> library sites used to be. You have to learn how to use it, and unless
> you have a number of friends using it, it seems, as rysiek wrote,
> bloated.

Well put.

> Tox works, but everyone is whining about "Federation" as being
> insecure.

Wait, how does Tox relate to The Federation? I assume you mean this?
http://the-federation.info/

> I have Ricochet up and running. The fonts in the message area
> really suck (and you can barely read your own address unless you paste
> it to a notepad) but they say it's the most secure thing going...

I will need to look into it. Thanks.

> ricochet:rhbj7saaf3u6ke6n
> 
> Tox Id:
> E611C7673C4C9C84C7F53BD8A2DF46C3131CB260E5758392B6B22FE18072C57569661208F92E

Haven't seen you there for a while, though.

-- 
Pozdrawiam,
Michał "rysiek" Woźniak

Zmieniam klucz GPG :: http://rys.io/pl/147
GPG Key Transition :: http://rys.io/en/147
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From zen at freedbms.net  Mon Nov 23 16:40:52 2015
From: zen at freedbms.net (Zenaan Harkness)
Date: Tue, 24 Nov 2015 00:40:52 +0000
Subject: Yoga class cancelled for "cultural issues" (insufficient awareness by
 class attendees of yoga origins)
Message-ID: <CAOsGNST6qfRtvWsNxCHymS5uCbyvrn61Wmj3=TE1p_-D2WdWkg@mail.gmail.com>

The practices of this yoga regime must be corrected.

Zenaan's trigger warnings: contains the following words and phrases:
spiritual, oppression, cultural genocide, yoga, cultural issues,
Disabilities (I was so sure we weren't allowed to use that word any
more), feeling left out, mindful stretching (evidently a taboo phrase
as well).


http://nypost.com/2015/11/23/pc-police-suspend-yoga-class-at-university-over-cultural-issues/

A yoga instructor who teaches at the University of Ottawa says she is
fighting to keep her program alive after the school’s student body
suspended it over concerns that “cultural issues” relating to the
class could offend students.

Jennifer Scharf, who has been offering free weekly sessions at the
university’s Center for Students with Disabilities since 2008, told
the Ottawa Sun that she was informed in September that the program
would not come back for the fall semester.

    ICYMI: Still our hottest story – Free yoga class cancelled over
'cultural issues' https://t.co/GZbUHJ8VRa #ottnews
pic.twitter.com/J4F7AZo6Zj

    — Ottawa Sun (@ottawasuncom) November 23, 2015

In an email exchange between Scharf and a representative of the
university’s Student Federation — which was viewed by the newspaper —
a student wrote that “while yoga is a really great idea and accessible
and great for students… there are cultural issues of implication
involved in the practice.

“Yoga has been under a lot of controversy lately due to how it is
being practiced,” the email continues, and which cultures those
practices “are being taken from.”

The Student Federation, which operates the center, went on to say that
many of those cultures “have experienced oppression, cultural genocide
and diasporas due to colonialism and Western supremacy… we need to be
mindful of this and how we express ourselves while practicing yoga.”

Student Federation Acting President Romeo Ahimakin told the Ottawa Sun
that the class has been put on hold until a way can be figured out “to
make it better, more accessible and more inclusive to certain groups
of people that feel left out in yoga-like spaces.

“We are trying to have those sessions done in a way in which students
are aware of where the spiritual and cultural aspects come from, so
that these sessions are done in a respectful manner,” he added.

But Scharf, who instructed about 60 students each week in the program,
said, “people are just looking for a reason to be offended by anything
they can find.”

Scharf says she offered the student body leaders a compromise by
suggesting she change the name of the course to “mindful stretching,”
but after some debate, they couldn’t reach an agreement.

“I guess it was this cultural appropriation issue because yoga
originally comes from India,” she told CBC News. “We’re not going
through the finer points of Scripture. We’re talking about basic
physical awareness and how to stretch so that you feel good.”

Scharf added that she is “fighting so hard” to keep the class.




From pgut001 at cs.auckland.ac.nz  Mon Nov 23 17:31:38 2015
From: pgut001 at cs.auckland.ac.nz (Peter Gutmann)
Date: Tue, 24 Nov 2015 01:31:38 +0000
Subject: [FORGED] Yoga class cancelled for "cultural issues"
 (insufficient awareness by class attendees of yoga origins)
In-Reply-To: <CAOsGNST6qfRtvWsNxCHymS5uCbyvrn61Wmj3=TE1p_-D2WdWkg@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAOsGNST6qfRtvWsNxCHymS5uCbyvrn61Wmj3=TE1p_-D2WdWkg@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <9A043F3CF02CD34C8E74AC1594475C73F4B81233@uxcn10-5.UoA.auckland.ac.nz>

Zenaan Harkness <zen at freedbms.net> writes:

>Student Federation Acting President Romeo Ahimakin told the Ottawa Sun that
>the class has been put on hold until a way can be figured out “to make it
>better, more accessible and more inclusive to certain groups of people that
>feel left out in yoga-like spaces.

They're really going for that Poe's Law prize this year aren't they?

Peter.




From zen at freedbms.net  Mon Nov 23 18:10:38 2015
From: zen at freedbms.net (Zenaan Harkness)
Date: Tue, 24 Nov 2015 02:10:38 +0000
Subject: Russian heart propaganda
Message-ID: <CAOsGNSQD1wrt1X7REFVpUEM5Jz5WaEKFuwFQX27sdSqQ6SuHew@mail.gmail.com>

For anyone who needs some "positive bits" to enlighten a sheep. Yes
there are negative bits here and there. I would hope we focus on the
uplifting and the heart.

http://www.pravdareport.com/world/europe/24-11-2015/132679-russian_altruism-0/




From jdb10987 at yahoo.com  Mon Nov 23 19:59:40 2015
From: jdb10987 at yahoo.com (jim bell)
Date: Tue, 24 Nov 2015 03:59:40 +0000 (UTC)
Subject: Rare Intelligent Yahoo article:   Not so rare stupid opinions by
 Hillary Clinton.   This time on encryption.
References: <1862489303.10184029.1448337580470.JavaMail.yahoo.ref@mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <1862489303.10184029.1448337580470.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com>

http://news.yahoo.com/hillary-clinton-showed-government-still-213151251.html

Hillary Clinton Showed How the Government Still Doesn't Understand the Encryption Debate
Every time there is a major terror attack that shocks the international consciousness, there are renewed calls for surveillance and increased policing. And even though we're slowly learning that encryption techniques had nothing to do with the attacks on Paris, politicians are still revitalizing a debate as old as the Internet — whether or not the government should be able to break encryption.
Encryption is the process of taking a message, or any block of text or information, and scrambling it so that it can only be read by the intended recipient. It's baked into many message and email systems automatically, preventing law enforcement from catching the messages in transit and unpacking their contents.
On Thursday, Hillary Clinton called on tech companies to avoid seeing the government as an "adversary" and to "develop solutions that will both keep us safe and protect our privacy" before another attack like Paris occurs.
"Encryption of mobile communications presents a particularly tough problem," Clinton said during a speech at the Council on Foreign Relations last week. "We should take the concerns of law enforcement and counterterrorism professionals seriously. They have warned that impenetrable encryption may prevent them from accessing terrorist communications and preventing a future attack."

Silicon Valley has been vowing in droves to not bend to the political pressure to change their encryption standards. But it's not because they're stubborn, naive or capitalistic. It's because "weakening" encryption is nearly impossible.

[end of portion quoted]




From jya at pipeline.com  Tue Nov 24 02:53:18 2015
From: jya at pipeline.com (John Young)
Date: Tue, 24 Nov 2015 05:53:18 -0500
Subject: Rare Intelligent Yahoo article:   Not so rare stupid
 opinions by Hillary Clinton.   This time on encryption.
In-Reply-To: <1862489303.10184029.1448337580470.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yaho o.com>
References: <1862489303.10184029.1448337580470.JavaMail.yahoo.ref@mail.yahoo.com>
 <1862489303.10184029.1448337580470.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <E1a1BCY-0002WX-Fo@elasmtp-spurfowl.atl.sa.earthlink.net>

http://news.yahoo.com/hillary-clinton-showed-government-still-213151251.html

Hillary Clinton Showed How the Government Still Doesn't Understand 
the Encryption Debate

>"develop solutions that will both keep us safe and protect our privacy"

This is the agreed upon script for national security, encryption, commerce,
education,politics,religion, since the Internet was invented and long before.

But neither safety nor privacy have been satisfactorily provided during the
time this script has been incessantly spoken, written, broadcast, legislated.

Crypto advocates as well as those for national security have 
conspired to follow
a script that both agree cannot be fulfilled. Edward Snowden is merely the
latest to preach this impossible dream so successful, lucrative and risk-free
by advocates and marketers of crypto and natsec.

None of the opportunistic companies and cryptographers marching in lockstep
to this script with authorities expect the dream to be realized, so they agree
to keep repeating the sales and dangerless script for doomed-to-fail national
security and encryption and then demand more funding and trust for better
solutions.

Whether doomed to fail is deliberate to assure markets, media and lecture fees
could be debated, and will be debated, and is being debated. This debate
fosters the notion of opposition rather than complicity. As seen in the
Snowden affair, dribble non-threatening information, call for debate,
pretend risk-taking in consultation with authorities.

So Manning and Snowden and a few others are left hanging in the wind,
in jail, in exile. The smartest and least gullible are on the run, 
keeping away
from publicity and foolish leaking, avoiding honey pots of secure drops
and ratting to law enforcement and spies, and disbelieving anyone who
promotes and monetizes the script of safety and privacy. Nobody like
that is here nor on any fora on crypto and natsec suffused with tattletales,
fora run for that very purpose.





From rysiek at hackerspace.pl  Tue Nov 24 00:25:53 2015
From: rysiek at hackerspace.pl (rysiek)
Date: Tue, 24 Nov 2015 09:25:53 +0100
Subject: Privacy Wiki
In-Reply-To: <CANuYx8QNRFyzsVsPquwSooFa-mm6Teb=P0xD65HcbHRPfkt3sQ@mail.gmail.com>
References: <564CF214.3020904@gmail.com> <3288598.9FuDk5iv8s@lapuntu>
 <CANuYx8QNRFyzsVsPquwSooFa-mm6Teb=P0xD65HcbHRPfkt3sQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <2844351.WSejkZmcqq@lapuntu>

Dnia poniedziałek, 23 listopada 2015 23:01:31 Silicon Dragon pisze:
> I suspect Tomas' original concern was regarding lack of ongoing support; as
> we've all seen, things are moving at a fast peace in security, which might
> open it open to vulnerabilities down the line.
> I welcome all, and any alternatives, or forks.

That's why dm-crypt and LUKS (as long as you're using Linux) are a good choice 
-- they are widely used, well supported, and a crucial part of the Linux 
system. Highly unlikely to do a TrueCrypt on anybody.

-- 
Pozdrawiam,
Michał "rysiek" Woźniak

Zmieniam klucz GPG :: http://rys.io/pl/147
GPG Key Transition :: http://rys.io/en/147
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From drwho at virtadpt.net  Tue Nov 24 10:36:11 2015
From: drwho at virtadpt.net (The Doctor)
Date: Tue, 24 Nov 2015 10:36:11 -0800
Subject: Privacy Wiki
In-Reply-To: <3288598.9FuDk5iv8s@lapuntu>
References: <564CF214.3020904@gmail.com>
 <CAEm6Kb+u0LWzQUsyfAfiz_2mc2n6mhp0WFkgvrDG+B47xCkX6g@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAD2Ti2_LEDRFiEa46bRh4q06qUweSWdE_XeFWq+_LLGNYyK7NA@mail.gmail.com>
 <3288598.9FuDk5iv8s@lapuntu>
Message-ID: <20151124103611.bf9fdea4b676952bd716bdb7@virtadpt.net>

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA512

On Mon, 23 Nov 2015 22:04:09 +0100
rysiek <rysiek at hackerspace.pl> wrote:

> By the way, anybody has news on the pacthes that were to allow setting up a 
> "KILL IT NOW" password for LUKS (i.e. a special password that would 
> permanently cripple the container when provided)?

https://github.com/offensive-security/cryptsetup-nuke-keys

This describes a decent use case:

https://www.kali.org/tutorials/nuke-kali-linux-luks/

- -- 
The Doctor [412/724/301/703/415] [ZS]

PGP: 0x807B17C1 / 7960 1CDC 85C9 0B63 8D9F  DD89 3BD8 FF2B 807B 17C1
WWW: https://drwho.virtadpt.net/

If you don't like Perl that looks like line noise, don't write it that way.

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X1PHPuezixPoezU10cWYSXW6/BDowPucxogLXWYdJmr8NgZHdQvnbdW+XcAmxj+T
TPniQhsmyY4yL5EpuJ7I
=nzxq
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----




From komachi at openmailbox.org  Tue Nov 24 03:03:37 2015
From: komachi at openmailbox.org (Anton Nesterov)
Date: Tue, 24 Nov 2015 11:03:37 +0000
Subject: Russia actually kind of cracked (?) Tor
Message-ID: <56544409.80609@openmailbox.org>

On 11 July 2014 Russia's Interior Ministry posted a contract seeking a
group "to study the possibility of obtaining technical information on
users and users' equipment of Tor anonymous network" for $59,000. When
media reports appeared, mentioning of Tor was deleted.

Then company who won this contract (The Central Research Institute of
Economics, Informatics, and Control Systems, subsidiary of Rostec) then
posted a contract to hire a law firm tasked with negotiating a way out
of the deal
http://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2015-09-22/russia-s-plan-to-crack-tor-crumbles

Now source of Kommersant close to the one of two parties of the deal
says that project was nearly finished, but CRI EICS didn't meet the
deadline, so that why there is court involved. Results was passed to the
Interior Ministry where it's already in use.

Representative of hired law firm told Kommersant that Interior Ministry
wants to just knock down the price or force CRI EICS to pay the forfeit.

Kommersant piece also mention a case when one user was deanonymized when
he used Tor Browser to post trip reports and prosecuted for propaganda
of illegal substances (I don't believe that was result of "cracking
Tor", he probably failed somehow (maybe used real name), also it would
be strange to perform probably costly attack for fine less than $100).

http://www.kommersant.ru/doc/2861002 Kommersant report (in Russian)

-- 
https://nesterov.pw
GPG key: 0CE8 65F1 9043 2B11 25A5 74A7 1187 6869 67AA 56E4
https://keybase.io/komachi/key.asc




From nonomos at mail.com  Tue Nov 24 04:35:40 2015
From: nonomos at mail.com (nonomos)
Date: Tue, 24 Nov 2015 13:35:40 +0100
Subject: Reaching the Sheeple, Building a Cpunk Symbiot Army
In-Reply-To: <CAOsGNSTsCgWwkGAhfvtahFOLT5ipkXBuofG=jkaKVLJAJ5ohrQ@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAD2Ti2-M+yr5KpfGnB07ZqHnVVWbj3T_rdjzAvr3Jzz4uUL8sg@mail.gmail.com>
 <564aa0d2.f71f8c0a.66867.ffff8ff6@mx.google.com>
 <1814839.EPlTVgMtup@lapuntu>
 <CAOsGNSTsCgWwkGAhfvtahFOLT5ipkXBuofG=jkaKVLJAJ5ohrQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <20151124133540.00fa4b4c@comp>

On Mon, 23 Nov 2015 22:37:26 +0000
Zenaan Harkness <zen at freedbms.net> wrote:

> On 11/23/15, rysiek <rysiek at hackerspace.pl> wrote:
> > This is the thing -- apart from providing reasons, we must start
> > providing actual working tools. And I mean working for Jack and
> > Jill, not for people on
> > this list.
> >
> > Please do not even let me start on Enigmail and Mailvelope. Tox, on
> > the other
> > hand, seems to be something genuinely useful. Simple and effective.
> > We need more Tox and less Mailvelope.
> 
> Another advantage of building a group of users, is it facilitates
> segue in the future - from Tox to Google+ for example. I know, I know,
> great example, I can't stop smiling I'm so pleased.
> 
> From this perspective, -something- is much better than nothing. TBB
> bread is an easy way to start a sheep. For those who want some tin
> foil, give them TrueCrypt cake.
> 
> Ideally encourage your wether to encourage/ install for others.

Truecrypt, great choice!

The new hackerspace's location in Brussels is in Molenbeek. Perhaps not
too opportune to organize cryptoparties there now..




From ryacko at gmail.com  Tue Nov 24 14:23:47 2015
From: ryacko at gmail.com (Ryan Carboni)
Date: Tue, 24 Nov 2015 14:23:47 -0800
Subject: FBI PSA: Hacktivists Threaten Law Enforcement
Message-ID: <CAO7N=i0OQ02nF0wjfP4xWOkDuoD=7G7FZHfdDkBnm5LvF=OXMA@mail.gmail.com>

http://www.ic3.gov/media/2015/151118.aspx

Law enforcement personnel and public officials may be at increased risk of
being targeted by hacktivists. Hacking collectives are effective at
leveraging open source, publicly available information identifying officers
and public officials, their employers or associates, and their families.
With this in mind, officers and public officials should be highly aware of
their email account security and their online presence and exposure. For
example, posting images wearing uniforms displaying name tags or listing
their police department on social media sites can increase an officer's
risk of being targeted or attacked.

Many legitimate online posts are linked directly to personal social media
accounts. Law enforcement personnel and public officials need to maintain
an enhanced awareness of the content they post and how it may reflect on
themselves, their family, and their employer, or how it could be used
against them in court or during online attacks.
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From zen at freedbms.net  Tue Nov 24 06:31:32 2015
From: zen at freedbms.net (Zenaan Harkness)
Date: Tue, 24 Nov 2015 14:31:32 +0000
Subject: NATO member Turkey just shot down Russian military jet
Message-ID: <CAOsGNSSe6+XkVLCY+ydDEmgdqHWRwQsT9xuVeNNyfkq6QFazGw@mail.gmail.com>

"According to Putin, Russia has always treated Turkey not simply as a
close neighbour, but as a friendly state." I guess that position is
now officially off the table. May be not the smartest move by Turkey?
I'm not getting the feeling that shooting down a Russian jet in Syria
was a good idea (even if it had been in Turkish airspace minutes
prior).

I hope this does not escalate.


---
http://tass.ru/en/politics/838825
"
Putin: Russia will not tolerate such crimes as attack against its
Sukhoi-24 plane
November 24, 15:53 UTC+3
According to the president, the attack against Su-24 plane in Syria
goes beyond normal struggle against terrorism, and it is "a stab in
Russia’s back" delivered by "terrorism accomplices"

SOCHI, November 24. /TASS/. Russia will not tolerate crimes like the
attack on the Russian Su-24 fighter jet shot down by the Turkish Air
Force in Syrian skies, President Vladimir Putin said on Tuesday at a
meeting with King of Jordan Abdullah II.

"I understand each country has its own regional interests, and we have
always respected that. But we shall never tolerate crimes like today's
one," the president said.

The Russian leader stressed that the downed fighter-bomber was posing
no threat to Turkey.

"Our pilots and jet posed no threat to the Turkish Republic. This is
obvious. They were conducting an operation against ISIL," Putin said.

He stressed the plane was flying above northern Lattakia where
militants coming from Russia are concentrated.

"The Russian bomber was shot down over Syria by an air-to-air surface
fired from a Turkish F-16 plane when the bomber was at an altitude of
6,000 meters at a distance of 1 km from the Turkish bomber." Putin
said.

"They [the pilots] were fulfilling their task," the president stressed
adding that they were delivering preventive air strikes on terrorists
who can come back to Russia at any moment.

Putin called the attack a crime and stressed that Russia would not
tolerate it. According to the president, the Su-24 plane crash in
Syria goes beyond normal struggle against terrorism, and it is "a stab
in Russia’s back delivered by terrorist accomplices."

"Today’s loss is linked with a stab in our back delivered by terrorism
accomplices. I can’t characterize otherwise what has happened today,"
the Russian leader said.

According to the president, Russia has long been aware of oil supplies
to Turkey from Syria’s territories seized by terrorists, which
provided tangible financial support for the extremists.

"We’ve long exposed heavy trafficking of oil and petroleum products
from Islamic State-seized territories," Putin said, adding that
monetary support for the militant groups was large, indeed.

 Read also
 Czech Republic's President Milos Zeman
 Czech president denounces Turkey’s actions over Russian bomber crash

"Now we’ve suffered stabs in the back: attacks against our planes that
fight with terrorism," Putin said. He pointed out that Turkey attacked
Russia’s Sukhoi-24 although "we have signed agreements with the
American partners on the prevention of incidents in the air, and
Turkey, as is known, is among the countries that have declared they
are ostensibly fighting against terrorism within the US-led
coalition.".

Putin noted that Turkey’s contacts with NATO member states after the
attack against the Russian aircraft look like an attempt to make the
alliance serve terrorists.

The Russian leader said that instead of immediately establishing
contacts with Russia after the bomber incident, "the Turkish side
applied to its NATO partners to discuss this issue, as far as we
know."

"It seems as if we have shot down a Turkish plane and not vice versa,"
the Russian president said.

"So, does this mean that they want NATO to serve the Islamic State?"
Putin noted.

The president said the attack on the Russian jet will have tragic
consequences to Russia-Turkey ties.

"We will certainly carefully analyse what has happened and today’s
tragic event will have serious consequences to Russian-Turkish
relations," he said. According to Putin, Russia has always treated
Turkey not simply as a close neighbour, but as a friendly state.

"I have no idea who needed what has happened today, but in any case
it’s not us," the Russian president said.

He expressed hope "the international community will find the forces to
unite in the face of this common evil (terrorism)."

Turkey's military attache in Russia has been summoned to the Russian
Defense Ministry.
"

---
http://russia-insider.com/en/politics/act-war-turkey-shoots-down-russian-military-jet/ri11406
"ACT OF WAR: Turkey Shoots Down Russian Military Jet

Turkey claims the Su-24 violated Turkish airspace, but the Russian
government says it has proof that the plane was flying over Syria

A NATO member just shot down a Russian military jet...

Absolutely unreal news coming from Syria: Turkish F-16 fighters have
shot down a Russian Su-24 tactical bomber. The details:

    http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/middle-east/turkey-shoots-down-russian-jet-near-syrian-border-and-video-shows-plane-coming-down-a6746206.html

    Turkey has shot down a Russian military jet which it says violated
its airspace near the Syrian border.

    The Russian Defence Ministry and Turkish Presidency, quoted in
Russian and Turkish media reports, have both described the plane as
Russian, and video posted by the Haberturk TV station appeared to show
the jet coming down in flames.

    A military official, quoted by Turkey's Dogan news agency, said
the plane was shot down by Turkish F16s, and that the pilot was given
prior warning.

    Various reports described the plane as coming down in hostile
Syrian territory, and the fate of the two pilots on board was unknown.

Initial reports claim that the pilots successfully ejected and are
safe. But the story is developing.

The Russian Ministry of Defense says that it has proof that the plane
was flying in Syrian, not Turkish, airspace at the time of the attack.

We cannot emphasize enough how jaw-droppingly dumb Turkey is: A NATO
member just shot down a Russian military jet.

UPDATE: A video has surfaced claiming to show the body of one of the
pilots. The fate of the second pilot is still unknown.
"
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ydw14n8OYdI

---
http://russia-insider.com/en/politics/graphic-video-moderate-rebels-display-body-russian-pilot-shot-down-turkey/ri11409
"
Graphic Video: Terrorists Display Body of Russian Pilot Shot Down by Turkey

A video has surfaced that allegedly shows “moderate rebels”
celebrating over the body of a Russian pilot whose plane was shot down
earlier today by Turkey

An act of war. Plain and simple.

In a disturbing development, it appears that at least one of the two
Russian pilots who were shot down over Syria by Turkey earlier today
is dead. The below video allegedly shows the west's favorite “moderate
rebels” celebrating over the dead body of one of the pilots, who
apparently was able to eject from the plane but did not survive.

Is NATO really going to defend this barbarity? Unfortunately the
answer could be “yes”.
"
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aryCZEKIlgs

---
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/europe/russian-plane-shot-down-live-russian-defence-minister-confirms-jet-shot-down-by-turkey-latest-a6746256.html

http://www.aljazeera.com/news/2015/11/turkey-shoots-warplane-syria-border-151124081519290.html

http://www.nytimes.com/2015/11/25/world/europe/turkey-syria-russia-military-plane.html?_r=0

http://tass.ru/en/politics/838765




From ryacko at gmail.com  Tue Nov 24 15:14:03 2015
From: ryacko at gmail.com (Ryan Carboni)
Date: Tue, 24 Nov 2015 15:14:03 -0800
Subject: [cryptome] Countdown to SHA-3 Collisions
In-Reply-To: <CANFTA0_x9Nb4Tk4uU5JXSSFCPZc81e_6J8yY4jgNbSqbNFioHg@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CANFTA0_x9Nb4Tk4uU5JXSSFCPZc81e_6J8yY4jgNbSqbNFioHg@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAO7N=i1PFfcNM9-aHc7GTgrZ_jLe5O70LyJ3t=1VOnwVJ=vCKw@mail.gmail.com>

ARX functions are difficult to cryptanalyze, thus the reason why it takes
longer to reach the optimal cryptanalytical method against it. In the NIST
report on SHA-3, it was commented that there is less cryptanalysis against
non-ARX functions than say Threefish.

It also shows that the cryptographic community is susceptible to
publication bias.

The greatest issue that Keccak (pronounced ketchup) has is that it has a
lot of side channels... like Rijndael.
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From schism at subverted.org  Tue Nov 24 19:28:47 2015
From: schism at subverted.org (schism at subverted.org)
Date: Tue, 24 Nov 2015 20:28:47 -0700
Subject: Reminders to censoring ADMIN's
In-Reply-To: <1448419015.2903975.449384945.13796D8F@webmail.messagingengine.com>
References: <CAD2Ti2-y-R5Cvk_uVDs9_OfF8Wi+4O54XkZLnz+UpzMWF_53+Q@mail.gmail.com>
 <1448419015.2903975.449384945.13796D8F@webmail.messagingengine.com>
Message-ID: <20151125032847.GL614072@lawl>

On Wed, Nov 25, 2015 at 12:36:55PM +1000, Alfie John wrote:
| I was always under the impression that cpunks was NOT
| censored^Wmoderated. That's why I switched over accordingly.

He's being pissy about his attitude being curbed on the curated
cryptography at metzdowd list.  Nothing to see here.




From grarpamp at gmail.com  Tue Nov 24 18:11:26 2015
From: grarpamp at gmail.com (grarpamp)
Date: Tue, 24 Nov 2015 21:11:26 -0500
Subject: Rare Intelligent Yahoo article: Not so rare stupid opinions by
 Hillary Clinton. This time on encryption.
In-Reply-To: <E1a1BCY-0002WX-Fo@elasmtp-spurfowl.atl.sa.earthlink.net>
References: <1862489303.10184029.1448337580470.JavaMail.yahoo.ref@mail.yahoo.com>
 <1862489303.10184029.1448337580470.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com>
 <E1a1BCY-0002WX-Fo@elasmtp-spurfowl.atl.sa.earthlink.net>
Message-ID: <CAD2Ti28p7gtPpwpez-mW6Nha_c9rVCMt8KOcGEDaArU40KEMow@mail.gmail.com>

On Tue, Nov 24, 2015 at 5:53 AM, John Young <jya at pipeline.com> wrote:
>> "develop solutions that will both keep us safe and protect our privacy"
>
> This is the agreed upon script for national security, encryption, commerce,
> education,politics,religion, since the Internet was invented and long
> before.

It's just another line of bullshit among many.

> But neither safety nor privacy have been satisfactorily provided during the
> time this script has been incessantly spoken, written, broadcast,
> legislated.

Removing the right of the people to provide for their own S&P
provides neither, not least of why because govt is incompetant
at providing most everything.




From grarpamp at gmail.com  Tue Nov 24 18:18:07 2015
From: grarpamp at gmail.com (grarpamp)
Date: Tue, 24 Nov 2015 21:18:07 -0500
Subject: Reminders to censoring ADMIN's
Message-ID: <CAD2Ti2-y-R5Cvk_uVDs9_OfF8Wi+4O54XkZLnz+UpzMWF_53+Q@mail.gmail.com>

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vuEQixrBKCc
Instead of focusing on people words, listen their
message, you might learn something.
Perspective... get some.




From grarpamp at gmail.com  Tue Nov 24 19:54:57 2015
From: grarpamp at gmail.com (grarpamp)
Date: Tue, 24 Nov 2015 22:54:57 -0500
Subject: Reminders to censoring ADMIN's
In-Reply-To: <20151125032847.GL614072@lawl>
References: <CAD2Ti2-y-R5Cvk_uVDs9_OfF8Wi+4O54XkZLnz+UpzMWF_53+Q@mail.gmail.com>
 <1448419015.2903975.449384945.13796D8F@webmail.messagingengine.com>
 <20151125032847.GL614072@lawl>
Message-ID: <CAD2Ti28X5N_Ku_WjyP6Y=M7Jg_F8Mw39Ns0tph2jT+S2CvT=dg@mail.gmail.com>

Attitude is everything ;)




From grarpamp at gmail.com  Tue Nov 24 20:12:49 2015
From: grarpamp at gmail.com (grarpamp)
Date: Tue, 24 Nov 2015 23:12:49 -0500
Subject: Fwd: [Cryptography] A Paris Cryptographer On Encryption and Terrorists
In-Reply-To: <E1a1FcF-0002Qr-Hi@elasmtp-kukur.atl.sa.earthlink.net>
References: <E1a1FcF-0002Qr-Hi@elasmtp-kukur.atl.sa.earthlink.net>
Message-ID: <CAD2Ti2_RCn9cOGggAJRnjHuqP5Ty8+ivCQmFaOyRDdd=r707Rg@mail.gmail.com>

---------- Forwarded message ----------
From: Henry Baker <hbaker1 at pipeline.com>
Date: Tue, Nov 24, 2015 at 10:34 AM
Subject: [Cryptography] A Paris Cryptographer On Encryption and Terrorists
To: cryptography at metzdowd.com


FYI --

https://nadim.computer/2015/11/23/on-encryption-and-terrorists.html

Nadim Kobeissi
On Encryption and Terrorists

Nov 23, 2015

In light of the recent terrorist attacks, things are getting heated
for the regular security and encryption software developer.  Being one
myself, I’ve been on the receiving end of a small avalanche of
requests from journalists, political pundits and even law enforcement.
I’m also someone who was born and raised in Beirut and who recently
immigrated to Paris, both of which were the sites of twin attacks, one
day apart from each other.

It seems necessary to share some perspective on what’s going on with
encryption software, the terrorists supposedly using it, and what this
means for the rights and the security of our global communities.

The encryption software community writes a large variety of software,
from secure instant messaging to flight tower communication management
to satellite collision prevention.  We do this for a number of
reasons, but there’s always an underlying shared understanding: that
we’re using mathematics and engineering to contribute towards a
society that’s safer, more capable and able to communicate with a
sense of privacy and dignity inherent to all modern societies.  The
premise driving the people writing encryption software is not exactly
that we’re giving people new rights or taking some away: it’s the hope
that we can enforce existing rights using algorithms that guarantee
your ability to free speech, to a reasonable expectation of privacy in
your daily life.  When you make a credit card payment or log into
Facebook, you’re using the same fundamental encryption that, in
another continent, an activist could be using to organize a protest
against a failed regime.

In a way, we’re implementing a fundamental technological advancement
not dissimilar from the invention of cars or airplanes.  Ford and
Toyota build automobiles so that the entire world can have access to
faster transportation and a better quality of life.  If a terrorist is
suspected of using a Toyota as a car bomb, it’s not reasonable to
expect Toyota to start screening who it sells cars to, or to stop
selling cars altogether.

And yet, this is the line of questioning that has besieged the
cryptography community immediately after the Paris attacks.  A simple
mention of my encryption software in an Arabic-speaking forum is
enough to put me on the receiving end of press inquiries such as “are
you aware of any terrorists using your software?  Do you feel it’s
your responsibility to monitor terrorist activity?”  Or, more bluntly,
do I feel like I’m complicit in aiding terrorists, by the simple fact
that I write cryptography software or currently do PhD research in
applied cryptography?

The brouhaha that has ensued from the press has been extreme.  I’ve
received calls that bluntly want to interview me regarding “technology
used by terrorists, such as yours.”  A Wired article, like many
alongside it, finds an Arabic PDF guide on encryption and immediately
attributes it as an “ISIS encryption training manual” even though it
was written years ago by Gaza activists with no affiliation to any
jihadist group.

In this rush to blame a field that is largely unknowable to the public
and therefore at once alluring and terrifying, little attention has
been paid to facts: The Paris terrorists did not use encryption, but
coordinated over SMS, one of the easiest to monitor methods of digital
communication.  They were still not caught, indicating a failure in
human intelligence and not in a capacity for digital surveillance.

But even in light of all the evidence pointing towards a human
intelligence failure, cryptography, being to the outsider a scary and
mysterious usage of secret codes and complicated algorithms, remains
an easy target.  The press again drives the discussion, each time with
a lessened priority for measured questioning and proper investigation.
Why haven’t you inserted back doors into your software?  Do you want
terrorists to use your tools?

The call for backdoors is nothing new.  During my career in the
private sector, I’ve seen requests to backdoor encryption software so
as to please potential investors, and have seen people in the field
who appeared to stand for secure software balk under the excuse of “if
that’s what the customer wants,” even if it results in irreparable
security weaknesses.  I’ve had well-intentioned intelligence officers
ask me informally, out of honest curiosity, why it is that I would
refuse to insert backdoors.  The issue is that cryptography depends on
a set of mathematical relationships that cannot be subverted
selectively.  They either hold completely or not at all.  It’s not
something that we’re not smart enough to do; it’s something that’s
mathematically impossible to do.  I cannot backdoor software
specifically to spy on jihadists without this backdoor applying to
every single member of society relying on my software.

And I’ve seen what guarantees secure communication can give a society.
I’ve seen my software used in Hong Kong to organize protests against a
government otherwise unwilling to give people their rights.  I’ve seen
my colleagues produce software used by Egyptians rallying for
democracy.  I’ve had childhood friends call me from Beirut, desperate
to know of a way to organize protests against a government that would
lock them up were they to use public phone lines.  I’ve set up
communication lines for LGBTQ organizations so that they can give
counsel without fearing ostracization or reprisal.  And in the comfort
of my new life in France, I’ve also relied on encryption so that I
know I’m obtaining my simple right to privacy when discussing my daily
life with my friends or with my partner.

I’ve come to see encryption as the natural extension a computer
scientist can give a democracy.  A permeation of the simple assurance
that you can carry out your life freely and privately, as enshrined in
the constitutions and charters of France, Lebanon as well as the
United States.  To take away these guarantees doesn’t work.  It
doesn’t produce better intelligence.  It’s not why our intelligence
isn’t competing in the first place.  But it does help terrorist groups
destroy the moral character of our politics from within, when out of
fear, we forsake our principles.

If we take every car off the street, every iPhone out of people’s
pockets and every single plane out of the sky, it wouldn’t do anything
to stop terrorism.  Terrorism isn’t about means, but about ends.  It’s
not about the technology but about the anger, the ignorance that holds
a firm grip over the actor’s mind.

I grew up and spent a decade of my childhood in south Beirut and was
literally neighbors with the security sector of Hezbollah, a guerilla
organization that fights frequent wars with Israel.  During the 2006
war, an Israeli fighter jet carpet-bombed the entire neighborhood,
razing my home and that of many others to the ground.  While walking
through a field of rubble and unexploded cluster bombs to try and find
my house, I distantly saw a friend of mine, far away on the other side
of whatever it was that I was staring across.  We locked eyes.  Then,
we burst out laughing.  We laughed for a long time.

In 2008, I got the opportunity to move away from Lebanon and to get an
education abroad.  This opportunity was rare and unusual.  Making
encryption software is hard, too: for many of my first years abroad,
much of my software was riddled with bugs, and it took practice and
feedback in order to start getting things right ­ namely, what my
education abroad of Lebanon really was about.

Visiting south Beirut a few years later, I found that I had changed
but that no one else there had.  The rubble was mostly but not
completely gone.  I also found that people were angry, and that
Hezbollah had pledged to rebuild their homes.  Left without any hope
for a good education, for a happy life, with much of their families
missing, with their friends dead, many pledged themselves in return.

That’s what’s causing terrorism, not encryption software.

nadim at nadim.computer

_______________________________________________
The cryptography mailing list
cryptography at metzdowd.com
http://www.metzdowd.com/mailman/listinfo/cryptography




From rysiek at hackerspace.pl  Tue Nov 24 14:54:09 2015
From: rysiek at hackerspace.pl (rysiek)
Date: Tue, 24 Nov 2015 23:54:09 +0100
Subject: Privacy Wiki
In-Reply-To: <20151124103611.bf9fdea4b676952bd716bdb7@virtadpt.net>
References: <564CF214.3020904@gmail.com> <3288598.9FuDk5iv8s@lapuntu>
 <20151124103611.bf9fdea4b676952bd716bdb7@virtadpt.net>
Message-ID: <1528186.UiF21v2ML0@lapuntu>

Dnia wtorek, 24 listopada 2015 10:36:11 The Doctor pisze:
> On Mon, 23 Nov 2015 22:04:09 +0100
> 
> rysiek <rysiek at hackerspace.pl> wrote:
> > By the way, anybody has news on the pacthes that were to allow setting up
> > a
> > "KILL IT NOW" password for LUKS (i.e. a special password that would
> > permanently cripple the container when provided)?
> 
> https://github.com/offensive-security/cryptsetup-nuke-keys
> 
> This describes a decent use case:
> 
> https://www.kali.org/tutorials/nuke-kali-linux-luks/

Merci!

-- 
Pozdrawiam,
Michał "rysiek" Woźniak

Zmieniam klucz GPG :: http://rys.io/pl/147
GPG Key Transition :: http://rys.io/en/147
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From juan.g71 at gmail.com  Tue Nov 24 20:35:47 2015
From: juan.g71 at gmail.com (juan)
Date: Wed, 25 Nov 2015 01:35:47 -0300
Subject: oldspeak
Message-ID: <565538e9.478e8c0a.dc447.ffffff73@mx.google.com>




	http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/terrorism?s=t


	" noun : the use of violence and threats to intimidate or
	coerce, especially for political purposes." 


	Oops. That just happen to be a description of the way *all*
	governments operate.

	



	 




From pgut001 at cs.auckland.ac.nz  Tue Nov 24 18:37:28 2015
From: pgut001 at cs.auckland.ac.nz (Peter Gutmann)
Date: Wed, 25 Nov 2015 02:37:28 +0000
Subject: [FORGED] NATO member Turkey just shot down Russian military jet
In-Reply-To: <CAOsGNSSe6+XkVLCY+ydDEmgdqHWRwQsT9xuVeNNyfkq6QFazGw@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAOsGNSSe6+XkVLCY+ydDEmgdqHWRwQsT9xuVeNNyfkq6QFazGw@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <9A043F3CF02CD34C8E74AC1594475C73F4B82182@uxcn10-5.UoA.auckland.ac.nz>

Zenaan Harkness <zen at freedbms.net> writes:

>"According to Putin, Russia has always treated Turkey not simply as a
>close neighbour, but as a friendly state."

If you ignore several centuries of political machinations and outright warfare
then yes, Russia has been pretty friendly to Turkey.

With friends like Putin, who needs enemies...

Peter.




From zen at freedbms.net  Tue Nov 24 21:28:26 2015
From: zen at freedbms.net (Zenaan Harkness)
Date: Wed, 25 Nov 2015 05:28:26 +0000
Subject: Interest free money in history (Russia in this case :)
Message-ID: <CAOsGNSQJof8T2iLVoZvD9S7_seHzLX8ytYwexUm5ytNagGk5Rw@mail.gmail.com>

This is not a new concept, and not an exclusively Islamic concept. And
it has been tried with incredible success historically. No wonder
Russia is despised by the "elite" of "the West".

Russia Debates Unorthodox Orthodox Financial Alternative
http://journal-neo.org/2015/11/22/russia-debates-unorthodox-orthodox-financial-alternative/

It's not a short article, but here's a key quote to get you salivating:

"Under Czar Alexander III and his Finance Minister Nikolai Bunge,
Russia established the Peasant Land Bank in the beginning of the
1880’s to give interest-free loans to the liberated peasantry that had
been freed from serfdom in 1861 by his father, Alexander II and given
land. The Land Bank invested in the modernization of Russian
agriculture with farmers only paying a small handling charge for
credits. The result was such a spectacular rise in Russian wheat, and
other cereals that Russia became the world “bread basket” up to
outbreak of World War I, exceeding the combined production of the USA,
Argentina and Canada by some 25%.
"




From zen at freedbms.net  Tue Nov 24 22:26:30 2015
From: zen at freedbms.net (Zenaan Harkness)
Date: Wed, 25 Nov 2015 06:26:30 +0000
Subject: NATO member Turkey just shot down Russian military jet
In-Reply-To: <CAOsGNSSe6+XkVLCY+ydDEmgdqHWRwQsT9xuVeNNyfkq6QFazGw@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAOsGNSSe6+XkVLCY+ydDEmgdqHWRwQsT9xuVeNNyfkq6QFazGw@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAOsGNSRnEO7z9-gKsxniSkD2-MKkJ3hwtKxjWCAPFvxvD3K=UQ@mail.gmail.com>

Seems Turkey miscalculated presumption of NATO support ... and
Russia's reaction - see below.


Reuters: US believes Russian jet was hit inside Syrian airspace
http://tass.ru/en/world/839009


Leaked Ankara UN letter claims Su-24's ‘air space violation’ lasted 17 seconds
(Turkey: 17 second air space transit =
 must ... shoot ... down ... jet)
https://www.rt.com/news/323343-turkey-un-syria-russian-plane/

Downed in 17 seconds: Where Turkey’s story of Su-24 violating airspace
just does not add up
https://www.rt.com/news/323369-turkey-downed-russian-jet/


Russia deploys missile cruiser off Syria coast, ordered to destroy any
target posing danger
https://www.rt.com/news/323329-russia-suspend-military-turkey/


Russian Air Force Annihilated Militants In Area Where Su-24 Was Shot
Down. Erdogan Ordered Turkish Air Force Planes Be Grounded
http://southfront.org/vks-russian-federation-has-annihilated-the-militants-in-the-area-where-the-su-24-was-brought-down-erdogan-has-ordered-that-air-force-planes-of-turkey-be-grounded/




From afalex169 at gmail.com  Tue Nov 24 23:14:22 2015
From: afalex169 at gmail.com (=?UTF-8?B?INCQ0LvQtdC60YHQsNC90LTRgCA=?=)
Date: Wed, 25 Nov 2015 09:14:22 +0200
Subject: NATO member Turkey just shot down Russian military jet
In-Reply-To: <CAOsGNSRnEO7z9-gKsxniSkD2-MKkJ3hwtKxjWCAPFvxvD3K=UQ@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAOsGNSSe6+XkVLCY+ydDEmgdqHWRwQsT9xuVeNNyfkq6QFazGw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAOsGNSRnEO7z9-gKsxniSkD2-MKkJ3hwtKxjWCAPFvxvD3K=UQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAEm6KbLbJT-z_sLT4mOJW-RmDGipbP=SoD=cWz9eVJiX+zdaVQ@mail.gmail.com>

>
> Seems Turkey miscalculated presumption of NATO support  -
>
They don't need Nato's support. They have got US support. It's just an
orchestrated ugly game planned beforehand.

violating airspace  -
> ​​
>
Zenaan, it's not just about the airspace. It's about the fact that Russia's
jet was not threatening Turkey. The "funniest" thing is that he was also
EMPTY from bombs because he was AFTER his mission where he dropped
everything and was on the way home.
And even if we would believe in their cheap legend, in 17 seconds you can
'deeefinitely' 10/20 times warn the pilot. and, and,
and....Such fucken liars....

I am so sorry for the pilots... so sorry. They were killed *not by declared
enemy*, thus unfair and without any chance to survive. Moreover, they were
killed pointlessly. Just for the sake of Turkey's bloodthirsty lord... the
US.
*Indeed, the **US** are the masters of provocations.*

2015-11-25 8:26 GMT+02:00 Zenaan Harkness <zen at freedbms.net>:
>
> Seems Turkey miscalculated presumption of NATO support ... and
> Russia's reaction - see below.
>
>
> Reuters: US believes Russian jet was hit inside Syrian airspace
> http://tass.ru/en/world/839009
>
>
> Leaked Ankara UN letter claims Su-24's ‘air space violation’ lasted 17
seconds
> (Turkey: 17 second air space transit =
>  must ... shoot ... down ... jet)
> https://www.rt.com/news/323343-turkey-un-syria-russian-plane/
>
> Downed in 17 seconds: Where Turkey’s story of Su-24 violating airspace
> just does not add up
> https://www.rt.com/news/323369-turkey-downed-russian-jet/
>
>
> Russia deploys missile cruiser off Syria coast, ordered to destroy any
> target posing danger
> https://www.rt.com/news/323329-russia-suspend-military-turkey/
>
>
> Russian Air Force Annihilated Militants In Area Where Su-24 Was Shot
> Down. Erdogan Ordered Turkish Air Force Planes Be Grounded
>
http://southfront.org/vks-russian-federation-has-annihilated-the-militants-in-the-area-where-the-su-24-was-brought-down-erdogan-has-ordered-that-air-force-planes-of-turkey-be-grounded/
>
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From Rayzer at riseup.net  Wed Nov 25 09:51:05 2015
From: Rayzer at riseup.net (Razer)
Date: Wed, 25 Nov 2015 09:51:05 -0800
Subject: [FORGED] NATO member Turkey just shot down Russian military jet
In-Reply-To: <9A043F3CF02CD34C8E74AC1594475C73F4B82182@uxcn10-5.UoA.auckland.ac.nz>
References: <CAOsGNSSe6+XkVLCY+ydDEmgdqHWRwQsT9xuVeNNyfkq6QFazGw@mail.gmail.com>
 <9A043F3CF02CD34C8E74AC1594475C73F4B82182@uxcn10-5.UoA.auckland.ac.nz>
Message-ID: <5655F509.6000703@riseup.net>

On 11/24/2015 06:37 PM, Peter Gutmann wrote:
> If you ignore several centuries of political machinations and outright
> warfare then yes, Russia has been pretty friendly to Turkey. With
> friends like Putin, who needs enemies... Peter. 

With two-faced authoritarian mass-murdering (est. millions of Kurds in
the last few years) jackasses like Ergodan who needs friends:

> "A short-term border violation can never be a pretext for an attack” -
> ‪Turkish President ‪‎Erdogan‬, 2012, after ‪Syria‬ downed a Turkish AF
> F-3 Phantom

https://www.rt.com/news/323369-turkey-downed-russian-jet/

Now that it turns out it WASN'T the US State Department backed FSA that
shot down that SU-24 and murdered the pilots while ejected (the
equivalent Geneva Convention war crime would be indiscriminately killing
non-resisting POWS...), but Turkmen commanded by a TURKISH CITIZEN, I
just can't wait for that Russian Missile frigate with orders to "Destroy
any Threat" to feel, umn, threatened.

Incinerating the presidential palace in Ankara like the US incinerated
most of Baghdad would be a good start, and millions of Turks would cheer.

RR

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From Rayzer at riseup.net  Wed Nov 25 10:06:37 2015
From: Rayzer at riseup.net (Razer)
Date: Wed, 25 Nov 2015 10:06:37 -0800
Subject: Moon of Alabama: Context Of Yesterday's Turkish Attack Against The
 Russian Jet
In-Reply-To: <CAOsGNSRnEO7z9-gKsxniSkD2-MKkJ3hwtKxjWCAPFvxvD3K=UQ@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAOsGNSSe6+XkVLCY+ydDEmgdqHWRwQsT9xuVeNNyfkq6QFazGw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAOsGNSRnEO7z9-gKsxniSkD2-MKkJ3hwtKxjWCAPFvxvD3K=UQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <5655F8AD.6010006@riseup.net>


> As I wrote yesterday:
>
>     This then was not legitimate air-defense but an ambush.
>
> I am not the only one who came to that conclusion. Deep inside a
> McClatchy piece a "western" diplomat sees it as an "orchestrated" event:
>
>     One Western diplomat based in Iraq, but with extensive experience
> in Syria and Turkey, called the incident “brazenly orchestrated and
> inevitable,” but asked that the identification of his country not be
> used in the statement.

This article is copiously linked at Moon of Alabama
http://www.moonofalabama.org/2015/11/the-context-of-yesterdays-turkish-attack-against-the-russian-jet.html
 
November 25, 2015

Was The U.S. Involved In The Turkish Attack Against The Russian Jet?

    Erdogan criticized Syria harshly on Tuesday for shooting down the
Turkish fighter jet, saying: "Even if the plane was in their airspace
for a few seconds, that is no excuse to attack."

    "It was clear that this plane was not an aggressive plane. Still it
was shot down," he said.Turkey hardens military position after Syria
downs jet June 27, 2012

    A violation of one to two kilometers is accepted as "natural" given
the speed of aircraft, the statement [by the the General Staff] said.
This year's violations of Turkish airspace lasted between 20 seconds and
nine minutes, which showed "airspace violations can be resolved by
warning and interceptions," the statement said.

    Turkey could have downed 114 planes for airspace violations: Army
June 25, 2012

    Turkish fighter jets and military helicopters have dramatically
increased their incursions into Greek airspace, according to a study
based on data from the Greek military, forcing the cash-strapped Greek
air force to respond.

    Turkey buzzes weakened Greece - In growing numbers Ankara’s fighter
jets test Greek territorial claims. - July 23, 2015

Turkey also regularly violates Iraq's airspace by flying bombing attacks
against Kurds in north Iraq.

All this provides that yesterday's incident in which Turkey shot down a
Russian jet was not a case of an ordinary airspace violation but a
deliberate act to take down a Russian plane. The surviving co-pilot of
the Russian jet insists that it neither flew through Turkish airspace
nor was warned of an imminent attack. As I wrote yesterday:

    This then was not legitimate air-defense but an ambush.

I am not the only one who came to that conclusion. Deep inside a
McClatchy piece a "western" diplomat sees it as an "orchestrated" event:

    One Western diplomat based in Iraq, but with extensive experience in
Syria and Turkey, called the incident “brazenly orchestrated and
inevitable,” but asked that the identification of his country not be
used in the statement.

The Russian Foreign Minister Lavrov also came to that conclusion:

    The downing of a Russian warplane in Syria by Turkey appears to be a
pre-planned provocation, the Russian Foreign Minister said. Ankara
failed to communicate with Russia over the incident, he added.

    “We have serious doubts that this act was unintentional. It looks
very much like a preplanned provocation,” Lavrov said, citing Turkey’s
failure to maintain proper communication with Russia, the abundance of
footage of the incident and other evidence.

Several NATO ambassadors will have had the same though when they
admonished Ankara over the act:

    "There are other ways of dealing with these kinds of incidents,"
said one diplomat who declined to be named.

The attack on the Russian plane was preconceived on November 22 when a
security summit was held with the Turkish government under Prime
Minister Davutoğlu and the Turkish Armed Forces. Davutoğlu personally
gave the order to shoot down Russian planes. This, Turkey says, was
necessary to stop Russian bombing of "Turkmen" in north Syria's Latakia
near the Turkish border.

Many of the "Syrian Turkmen" fighting against the Syrian people are from
Central Asia and part of the terrorist groups of Jabhat al-Nusra, Ansar
Al Shams, Jabhat Ansar Ad Din and Ahrar al Shams. Uighurs smuggled in
from China and fighting under the "Turkistan Islamist Party" label even
advertise their ‘little jihadists’ children training camps in the area.
The few real Syrian Turkmen work, as even the BBC admits, together with
al-Qaeda and other terrorist groups. Their leader and spokesman, one
Alparslan Celik, is a Turkish citizen from Elazığ.

The Turkish claim of defending "Turkmen" in Syria is a sham. It is
defending mostly foreign Islamist terrorists.

Whoever planned the ambush on the Russian jet miscalculated the
reaction. NATO will not come to Turkey's help over this or the next such
incident. NATO countries know that the Russian plane was hit within
Syria. Russia will not be scared into drawing back. Instead it massively
increased the bombing of targets in that area:

    At least 12 air strikes hit Latakia's northern countryside as
pro-government forces clashed with fighters from al Qaeda's Nusra Front
and Turkmen insurgents in the Jabal Akrad and Jabal Turkman areas, the
British-based Syrian Observatory for Human Rights said.

    A Turkmen commander said missiles fired from Russian warships in the
Mediterranean were also hitting the area, as well as heavy artillery
shelling.

Russian jets also bombed insurgency supply trucks (video) in al-Qaeda
controlled Azaz, north of Aleppo and just some two kilometers from the
Turkish border. They also bombed the Bab al-Hawa border crossing to
Turkey. That is a big FU to Erdogan.

The Russian missile cruiser Moskva with its extensive air defense
systems is now covering the area. Russia will officially deploy two
S-400 air defense systems to cover all of north-west Syria and southern
Turkey. Russia also has lots of electronic wizardry it can (and will)
apply. The preparation of additional airfields is ongoing. There will be
no outward military revenge against Turkey unless it crosses into Syria.
The "safe zone" within Syria Erdogan dreams of would have to be won by
defeating Russian forces.

The 4.5 million Russian tourists who visited Turkey this year will not
come again. Turkish business in Russia, mostly in the building industry
and agricultural products, will shrink to nearly zero. That the scheming
to take down a Russian air plane may have negative consequences for
Turkey suddenly also dawned to Davutoğlu who now pretends that we wants
to make nice again:

    Turkey is not aiming to escalate tension with Russia, Turkish Prime
Minister Ahmet Davutoğlu said Nov. 25, echoing President Recep Tayyip
Erdoğan following the downing of a SU-24 Russian jet the previous day.

    “Russia is our friend and neighbor. Our bilateral communication
channels are open. But our security, as for every friendly country,
should be based on the principle of respect under international law.
It’s normal to protect our national airspace,” Davutoğlu said,
addressing party members in parliament.

And it is normal for Russia to defend its ally Syria. Against all
enemies. By all means.

But back to Turkey's motive. The way this is played one might believe
that this was a indeed a lonely Turkish idea to defend its immediate
interests in Syria - the "Turkmen" as well as the oil business Erdogan's
son has with the Islamic State.

But there is also a bigger game going on and it is likely that Erdogan
has a new contract and Obama's backing for this escalation. James
Winnefeld, the deputy chief of General Staff of the U.S. military, was
in Ankara when the incident happened. The cooperation between U.S. and
Turkish military and especially the air forces is quite tight. It is
hard to believe that there was no communication about what was prepared
to happen.

After the Islamic State attack in France President Hollande attempted to
create a global coalition against IS which would include Russia and Iran
as well as the U.S. led anti-ISIS block. But such a coalition, which
makes a lot of sense, would have to agree to leave Syria alone and to
help Syrian ground forces to effectively fight the Islamic State. It
does not make sense to destroy the Syrian state and to just hope that
the outcome would be something better than an emboldened IS or AlQaeda
ruling in Damascus. That outcome is certainly not in Europe's interest.
But a global coalition is not in U.S. or Turkish interests. It would end
their common plans and efforts to overthrow the Syrian government and to
install a "Sunni" state in Syria and Iraq as a Turkish protectorate.

The Russian jet incident decreased the likelihood of such a coalition.
Holland, visiting Washington yesterday, had to pull back with his plan
and was again degraded to parrot Obama's "Assad must go" nonsense. Obama
feels emboldened and now pushes to widen the conflict in Syria:

    The Obama administration is using the current moment of extreme
anger and anxiety in Europe to press allies for sharp increases in their
contributions to the fight against the Islamic State. Suggestions
include more strike aircraft, more intelligence-sharing, more training
and equipment for local fighters, and deployment of their own special
operations ­forces.
    ...
    While new contributions would be added to anti-Islamic State
campaigns across the board, the attention is clearly on Syria, marking a
shift in what began as an “Iraq first” focus when Obama authorized
airstrikes in the region last fall.
    ...
    Obama, speaking beside Hollande on Tuesday, restated his insistence
that Assad is part of the problem, not the solution, and that he must go.

The Obama administration is also preparing to install the Turkish dream
of a "safe zone" between Aleppo and the Turkish border north of it.

    Among several coalition priorities in Syria, the United States has
begun a series of airstrikes in an area known as the “Mar’a line,” named
for a town north of Aleppo in the northwest. There, a 60-mile stretch to
the Euphrates River in the east is the only remaining part of the
Syria-Turkey border under Islamic State control.

    The administration had delayed beginning operations in the area
because U.S. aircraft were needed in operations farther east, and it has
been uncertain that local opposition forces­ would be able to hold the
territory if it could be cleared with airstrikes.

The increased Russian air defense and the likely increase of its
deployed planes will make those "safe zone" plans impossible.

But Obama, in my conclusion, still wants to drag NATO into Syria and
wants to assemble enough forces "against ISIS" to be able to overwhelm
the Syrian government and its Russian protectors. If that does not work
he at least hopes to give Russia the Afghanistan like "quagmire" in
Syria he and other U.S. officials promised. The again increasing
tensions with U.S. proxy Ukraine only help in that regard.

But there is even more to that plan. Just by chance (not) the NYT op-ed
pages launch a trial balloon today for the creation of a Sunni state in
east Syria and west Iraq. But that (Islamic) State is already there and
the "containment" strategy Obama practices towards it guarantees that it
will fester.

Obama continues his immensely destructive policies in the Middle East
with zero regard to the all the bad outcomes these are likely to have
for the people there as well as for Europe. One again wonders if all
these action follow from sheer incompetence or from some devilish,
ingenious strategic planning.

Posted by b on November 25, 2015 at 10:26 AM
http://www.moonofalabama.org/2015/11/the-context-of-yesterdays-turkish-attack-against-the-russian-jet.html

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From alfiej at fastmail.fm  Tue Nov 24 18:36:55 2015
From: alfiej at fastmail.fm (Alfie John)
Date: Wed, 25 Nov 2015 12:36:55 +1000
Subject: Reminders to censoring ADMIN's
In-Reply-To: <CAD2Ti2-y-R5Cvk_uVDs9_OfF8Wi+4O54XkZLnz+UpzMWF_53+Q@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAD2Ti2-y-R5Cvk_uVDs9_OfF8Wi+4O54XkZLnz+UpzMWF_53+Q@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <1448419015.2903975.449384945.13796D8F@webmail.messagingengine.com>

On Wed, Nov 25, 2015, at 12:18 PM, grarpamp wrote:
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vuEQixrBKCc Instead of focusing on
> people words, listen their message, you might learn something.
> Perspective... get some.

I was always under the impression that cpunks was NOT
censored^Wmoderated. That's why I switched over accordingly.

Alfie

-- 
Alfie John
alfie at fastmail.com




From Rayzer at riseup.net  Wed Nov 25 19:24:52 2015
From: Rayzer at riseup.net (Razer)
Date: Wed, 25 Nov 2015 19:24:52 -0800
Subject: The (Technological) Shadows in the Cave
Message-ID: <56567B84.6030404@riseup.net>

Thought I'd throw this out there...

The Archdruid Report

Druid perspectives on nature, culture, and the future of industrial society

Wednesday, November 25, 2015

The Shadows in the Cave

I had intended this week’s post to be the next episode in the Retrotopia
narrative, chronicling Peter Carr’s meeting with the irrepressible Col.
Tom Pappas of the Lakeland Republic Army, and the trip out to Defiance
County for the annual drone shoot, but that will have to wait another
week. No, I haven’t decided to comment instead on the recent spate of
terror attacks in France.  As people in a variety of other corners of
the world have pointed out, identical outrages happen all over the Third
World every few days.  The only reason this latest horror has gotten so
much air time is that it affected people in one of the world’s
privileged countries instead.

Nor am I going to be devoting this week’s post to the latest, extremely
troubling round of news from the climate change front—though that’s
going to get a post to itself down the road a bit, when I’ve had time to
do a little more research. That’s a far bigger story than the terror
attacks in Paris, though of course it’s not getting anything like as
much attention in the media.  From the beginning of serious salt water
infiltration into South Florida’s aquifers, through ominously bulging
sediments in Arctic Ocean shallows, to an assortment of truly
frightening data points from Greenland, it’s clear that we’ve passed the
threshold from “something may happen someday” to “something is happening
now”—a transition that probably has quite a bit to do with the
increasingly shrill tone of climate-change denialist rhetoric just now,
and even more to do with the increasingly plaintive tone of those
activists who still insist that everything can be fixed if we all just
join hands and sing “Kum ba ya” one more time.

No, this week’s post is going to explore a topic that’s far less
important in the overall scheme of things, though it’s not without its
relevance to the crisis of our age. I want to talk about the reaction I
fielded in response to last week’s post here on The Archdruid Report,
which was an exploration of our culture’s taboo against choosing not to
use the latest technologies.

<http://thearchdruidreport.blogspot.com/2015/11/the-heresy-of-technological-choice.html>

I expected that post to field its share of outraged denunciations, and
it certainly did. What I didn’t expect was that it would receive more
comments than any other post in the history of The Archdruid Report, and
the vast majority of those comments would agree heartily with the two
points of that post. The first of these points is that there’s a
significant number of Americans out there who, for one good reason or
another, choose not to use cell phones, televisions, automobiles,
microwave ovens, and an assortment of other currently fashionable
technologies. The second is that there’s an even larger number of
Americans out there who get really, really freaky about people who make
such choices.

Some of the stories I heard from readers of my blog were absolute
classics of the type. There was the couple who don’t enjoy television
and so don’t own one, and had a relative ask them every single year,
over and over again, if she could buy them a television for Christmas. 
They said no thank you every single year, and finally she went out and
bought them a television anyway because she just couldn’t stand the
thought that they weren’t watching one. There was the coworker who
plopped a laptop playing some sitcom or other right down on the lap of
one of my readers and demanded that the reader watch it, right then and
there, so that they would have something to talk about. There was the
person who, offended by another reader’s lack of interest in television,
finally shouted, “You must be living in a dream world!” Er, which of
these people was spending four to six hours a day watching paid actors
playing imaginary characters act out fictional events in contrived settings?

Televisions were far from the only focus of this sort of technobullying.
Other readers reported getting similar reactions from other people
because they didn’t happen to have, and weren’t interested in having,
microwave ovens, smartphones, and so on down the list of currently
fashionable trinkets. The stories are really quite eye-opening, and not
in a good way. Forget about all the popular cant that insists that
you’re free in the USA to make your own choices and have whatever
lifestyle you want.  According to a significant fraction of
Americans—and to judge from what my readers reported, that fraction
isn’t limited to any one class, income level, or region of the
country—the only freedom you’re supposed to exercise, when it comes to
technology, is that of choosing which brand label will be slapped on
each item in the officially approved list of devices you’re expected to own.

The prevalence of technobullying and technoshaming in today’s America is
a fascinating point, and one we’ll explore in a few moments, with the
able assistance of the denunciations flung at last week’s post by the
minority of readers who reacted that way. What I want to consider first
is the fact that so many people responded to last week’s post so
positively. One blog in an uncrowded corner of the internet, written by
an author whose day job as an archdruid locates him squarely on the
outer fringes of contemporary American life, is very nearly the opposite
of a statistically valid poll. Still, the sheer volume of the response
makes me suspect that something significant is going on here.

By that I don’t mean that there’s some sort of groundswell of
renunciation, leading people to walk away from technologies in the same
spirit that led medieval ascetics to don hair shirts and flog themselves
for the good of their souls. That’s one of the common stereotypes
directed at those of us who aren’t interested in the latest technotrash,
and it completely misses what’s actually going on. I’ll use myself as an
example here. I don’t own a television—I haven’t owned one in my adult
life—and it’s not because I have some moral or political objection to
televisions, or because I’m into self-denial, or what have you. I don’t
own a television because I find watching television about as enticing as
eating a bowl of warm snot.

It’s not the programming, either—that’s another of the standard
stereotypes, that the only thing one can find objectionable about
television is the programming, and it’s as inaccurate as the rest.  To
me, quite simply, the activity of watching little colored shapes jerk
around on a screen is boring and irritating, not relaxing and enjoyable,
no matter what the little colored shapes are supposed to be doing. Yes,
I grew up with a television in the house.  I experienced plenty of it
back in the day, and I have zero interest in experiencing any more,
because I don’t like it. It really is that simple. It’s that simple for
others as well: they don’t find this or that technology enjoyable,
useful, or relevant to their lifestyles, and so they’ve chosen to do
something else with their money and time. Shouldn’t so simple and
personal a choice be their own business, and nobody else’s?

To judge by the reactions that those who make such choices routinely
field, apparently not. The pushbacks discussed in the comments page last
week range from the sort of in-your-face confrontations discussed above
to a much-forwarded article in I forget which online rag, where somebody
was airily announcing that he wasn’t interested in being friends with
somebody unless he could text some vacuous comment about lunch to the
other person at 2:15 and get a response by 2:30. (My readers and I are
good with that—somebody who insists on getting immediate feedback for
their random outbursts of mental flatulence isn’t somebody we want as a
friend, either.) Then there were the indignant responses to last week’s
post, which belong in a category by themselves.

I’m sorry to say that my favorite diatribe didn’t show up in the comment
queue for The Archdruid Report. It appeared instead on one of the many
other websites that carry my weekly posts, and it insisted, among
several other less juicy bits, that my lack of enthusiasm for television
obviously meant that I was conspiring to deprive everyone else of their
teevees. You’ve got to admit that for sheer giddy delirium, that one’s
hard to beat. By the same logic, if I dislike peanuts—as in fact I do—I
must be committed to some kind of anti-peanut crusade devoted to
eradicating the entire species. Not so;  Arachis hypogaea is welcome to
live and thrive, for all I care, and my fellow hominids are equally
welcome to eat as much of its produce as they happen to desire.  In
fact, they can divide my share among them. The only thing I ask in
return is that nobody expect me to eat the things myself.

The same rule applies equally to television, as it does to a great many
other things. Like most human beings, I enjoy some things and don’t
enjoy others, and in the vast majority of these cases, nobody feels
particularly threatened by the fact that I don’t like something they do,
and avoid it for that sensible reason. For this one commenter, at least,
that obviously wasn’t the case, and it’s worth reflecting on the vast
personal insecurities that must have driven such a bizarre reaction.
Still, that was one of a kind, so we’ll pass on to the others.

A theme that showed up rather more often in the hate mail responding to
last week’s post was the insistence that if I don’t have a television, a
microwave, or a cell phone, I’m a hypocrite if I have an internet
connection. I encourage my readers to think about that claim for a
moment. I suppose a case could be made that if my lack of interest in
having a television, a microwave, or a cell phone was motivated by the
kind of passion for hair-shirt asceticism mentioned above, and I had an
internet connection, I could be accused of the kind of slacking that
used to get you thrown out of the really top-notch hermitages. From any
other perspective, it’s a triumph of absurdity. If people are in fact
allowed to choose, from among the currently available technologies,
those that make them happiest—as the cheerleaders of the consumer
economy delight to insist—what could possibly be wrong with choosing
some old technologies and some newer ones, if that’s the mix you prefer?

Then there are the people whose response to the technology of an older
time is to yammer endlessly about whatever bad things happened in those
days, even when the bad things in question had nothing to do with the
technology and vice versa. People like the couple I discussed in last
week’s post, who prefer Victorian furnishings and clothing to their
modern equivalents, get this sort of bizarre non sequitur all the time,
but variants of it turned up in my inbox last week as well. Here again,
there’s some heavy-duty illogic involved. If a technology that was
invented and used in the 1850s, say, is permanently tarred with the
various social evils of that era, and ought to be rejected because those
evils happened, wouldn’t that also mean that the internet is just as
indelibly tarred with the social evils of the modern era, and ought to
be discarded because bad things are happening in the world today? What’s
sauce for the goose, after all, is sauce for the gander...

Finally, there’s the capstone of the whole edifice of unreason, the
insistence that anybody who doesn’t use the latest, hottest technotrash
wants to go “back to the caves,” or to even take all of humanity to that
much-denounced destination. “The caves” have a bizarre gravitational
effect on the imagination of a certain class of modern thinkers. 
Everything that’s not part of the latest assortment of glitzy
technogimmicks, in their minds, somehow morphs into the bearskin kilts
and wooden clubs that so many of us still, despite well over a century
of detailed archeological evidence, insist on pushing onto our
prehistoric ancestors.

When people of this kind archly dismiss people like the Chrismans, the
neo-Victorian couple just mentioned, as going “back to the caves,”
they’re engaged in a very interesting kind of absurdity. Do cavemen and
Victorians belong on the same level? Sure, cavemen had flush toilets and
central heating, daily newspapers and public libraries, not to mention
factories, railways, global maritime trade, a telegraph network covering
much of the planet’s land surface, and a great deal more of the same
kind! That’s absurd, of course. It’s even more absurd to insist that
people who simply don’t enjoy using this or that technology, and so
don’t use it, are going back to “the caves”—but I can promise you, dear
reader, from my own personal experience, that if you show a lack of
interest in any piece of fashionable technology, you’ll have this phrase
thrown at you.

That happens because “the caves” aren’t real. They aren’t, for example,
the actual cave-shrines of the Magdalenian people who lived fifteen
thousand years ago, whose lifestyles were quite similar to those of
Native Americans before Columbus, and who used to go deep into the caves
of Europe to paint sacred images that still stun the viewer today by
their beauty and artistry. “The caves” of contemporary rhetoric, rather,
are thoughtstopping abstractions, bits of verbal noise that people have
been taught to use so they don’t ask inconvenient questions about where
this thing called “progress” is taking us and whether any sane person
would actually want to go there. Flattening out the entire complex
richness of the human past into a single cardboard bogeyman labeled “the
caves” is one way to do that.  So is papering over the distinctly ugly
future we’re making for ourselves with a screen shot or two from a
Jetsons cartoon and a gaudy banner saying “We’re headed for the stars!”

It’s really rather fascinating, all things considered, that the image of
the cave should have been picked up for that dubious purpose. Not that
long ago, most literate people in the Western world tended to have a
very different image come to mind when someone mentioned caves. That was
courtesy of a man named Aristocles of Athens, who lived a little more
than 2300 years ago and whose very broad shoulders got him the nickname
Plato. In the longest, most influential, and most problematic of his
works, usually called The Republic—a bad choice, as this word nowadays
has connotations of rights under law that the Greek title Politeia
lacks—he framed his discussion of the gap between perception and reality
with an arresting image.

Imagine, Plato says, that we are all shackled in a cave, unable to turn
our heads to either side. All we can see are dark shapes that move this
way and that on the flat wall of the cave in front of us. Those dark
shapes are all we know.  They are our reality.

Now imagine that one of these prisoners manages to get loose from his
shackles, and turns away from the cave wall and the dark shapes on it.
He’s in for a shock, because what he sees when he turns around is a
bonfire, and people moving objects in front of the flames so that the
objects cast shadows on the cave wall. Everything he thought was reality
is simply a shadow cast by these moving objects.

If the prisoner who’s gotten loose pays attention, furthermore, he might
just notice that the cave isn’t limited to the bonfire, the prisoners,
the objects casting the shadows and the people who manipulate those
objects. Off past the bonfire, on one side of the cave, the floor slopes
upwards, and in the distance is a faint light that doesn’t seem to come
from the fire at all. If our escaped prisoner is brave enough, he might
decide to go investigate that light. As he does so, the bonfire and the
shadows slip into the darkness behind him, and the light ahead grows
brighter and clearer.

Then, if he’s brave enough and keeps going, he steps out of the cave and
into the sunlight. That’s not an easy thing, either, because the light
is so much more intense than the dim red glow in the cave that for a
while, he can’t see a thing. He stumbles, rubs his eyes, tries to find
his bearings, and discovers that the detailed knowledge he had of the
way shadows moved on the cave wall won’t help him at all in this new,
blazingly bright realm. He has to discard everything he thinks he knows,
and learn the rules of an unfamiliar world.

Bit by bit, though, he accomplishes this. His eyes adapt to the
sunlight, he learns to recognize objects and to sense things—color, for
example, and depth—which didn’t exist in the shadow-world he thought he
inhabited when he was still a prisoner in the cave. Eventually he can
even see the sun, and know where the light that illumines the real world
actually comes from.

Now, Plato says, imagine that he decides to go back into the cave to
tell the remaining prisoners what he’s seen. To begin with, it’s going
to be rough going, because his eyes have adapted to the brilliant
daylight and so he’s going to trip and stumble on the way down. Once he
gets there, anything he says to the prisoners is going to be dismissed
as the most consummate rubbish:  what is this nonsense about color and
depth, and a big bright glowing thing that crosses something called the
sky? What’s more, the people to whom he’s addressing his words are going
to misunderstand them, thinking that they’re about the shadow-world in
front of their eyes—after all, that’s the only reality they know—and
they’re going to decide that he must be an idiot because nothing he says
has anything to do with the shadow-world.

Plato didn’t mention that the prisoners might respond by trying to drag
the escapee back into line with them and bully him into putting his
shackles back on, though that’s generally the way such things work out
in practice. Plato also never saw a television, which is unfortunate in
a way—if he had, he could have skipped the complicated setup with the
bonfire and the people waving around objects that cast shadows, and
simply said, “Imagine that we’re all watching television in a dark room.”

Now of course Plato had his own reasons for using the cave metaphor, and
developed it in directions that aren’t relevant to this week’s post. The
point I want to make here is that every technology is a filter that
shapes the way we experience and interact with the world. In some cases,
such as television, the filtering effect is so drastic it’s hard not to
see—unless, that is, you don’t want to see it.  In other cases, it’s
subtle. There are valid reasons people might want to use one filter
rather than another, or to set aside an assortment of filters in order
to get a clearer view of some part of the world or their lives.

There are also, as already noted, matters of personal choice. Some of us
prefer sun and wind and depth and color to the play of shadows on the
walls of the cave. That doesn’t mean that we’re going to drag those who
don’t share that preference out into the blinding light, or that we’re
going to turn ourselves into the Throg the Cave Man shadow that’s being
waved around so enthusiastically on one corner of the cave wall. It does
mean—or so the response to last week’s post suggests—that a significant
number of people are losing interest in the shadow-play and clambering
up the awkward but rewarding journey into the sunlight and the clean
cool air, and it may just mean as well that those who try to bully them
into staying put and staring at shadows may have less success than they
expect.

******************
On an entirely personal note, I’m pleased to report that Founders House
Publishing has just brought out a new edition of my first science
fiction novel, The Fires of Shalsha. It’s closer to mainstream SF than
anything else I’ve written—it’s even set on another planet—but fans of
my subsequent novels, Star’s Reach and Twilight’s Last Gleaming, will
find it an enjoyable read. Copies can be ordered here.

Posted by John Michael Greer at 5:01 PM

http://thearchdruidreport.blogspot.com/2015/11/the-shadows-in-cave.html

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From guninski at guninski.com  Wed Nov 25 10:08:22 2015
From: guninski at guninski.com (Georgi Guninski)
Date: Wed, 25 Nov 2015 20:08:22 +0200
Subject: NATO member Turkey just shot down Russian military jet
In-Reply-To: <CAEm6KbLbJT-z_sLT4mOJW-RmDGipbP=SoD=cWz9eVJiX+zdaVQ@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAOsGNSSe6+XkVLCY+ydDEmgdqHWRwQsT9xuVeNNyfkq6QFazGw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAOsGNSRnEO7z9-gKsxniSkD2-MKkJ3hwtKxjWCAPFvxvD3K=UQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAEm6KbLbJT-z_sLT4mOJW-RmDGipbP=SoD=cWz9eVJiX+zdaVQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <20151125180821.GA2547@sivokote.iziade.m$>

On Wed, Nov 25, 2015 at 09:14:22AM +0200,  Александр  wrote:
> >
> > Seems Turkey miscalculated presumption of NATO support  -
> >
> They don't need Nato's support. They have got US support. It's just an
> orchestrated ugly game planned beforehand.
> 
> violating airspace  -

IMHO the usa sucks much.

Someone asked: "did the russians provoked nato on puropose"?
They claimed military pilots don't make the mistake
to enter hostile territory even for a single second 
(assuming the plane/navigation are sound).




From jdb10987 at yahoo.com  Wed Nov 25 12:37:37 2015
From: jdb10987 at yahoo.com (jim bell)
Date: Wed, 25 Nov 2015 20:37:37 +0000 (UTC)
Subject: "Following Paris attacks, encryption services face new scrutiny"
References: <1243600292.11320340.1448483857604.JavaMail.yahoo.ref@mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <1243600292.11320340.1448483857604.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com>



http://news.yahoo.com/following-paris-attacks--encryption-services-face-new-scrutiny-154300219.html

Following Paris attacks, encryption services face new scrutiny 
Alyssa Bereznak, Yahoo Tech By Alyssa Bereznak, Yahoo Tech 

.A crowd near the Eiffel tower a week after the start of the Paris attacks. (AP Photo/Laurent Cipriani) 
A crowd near the Eiffel tower a week after the start of the Paris attacks. (AP Photo/Laurent Cipriani) 
Four days after the Nov. 13 terrorist attacks that shook Paris, Pavel Durov, the founder and CEO of the messaging app Telegram, posted a photo on Instagram of himself on a balcony in France. In the image, he is dressed in black and looking off to the side, the Eiffel Tower in the background framing his stoic expression. If you saw it at a glance, you’d think it was a tribute to the mourning nation. But then there’s this caption: 

“I think the French government is as responsible as ISIS for this, because it is their policies and carelessness which eventually led to the tragedy,” it reads. “They take money away from hardworking people of France with outrageously high taxes and spend them on waging useless wars in the Middle East and on creating [a] parasitic social paradise for North African immigrants. It is a disgrace to see Paris in the hands of shortsighted socialists who ruin this beautiful place.” 

Though otherwise confusing, the statement made one thing clear: Durov would rather blame the tragedy that had befallen Paris on French taxes than call attention to the way members of the Islamic state have taken to using his encrypted messaging app to communicate.




From themikebest at gmail.com  Wed Nov 25 20:05:27 2015
From: themikebest at gmail.com (Michael Best)
Date: Wed, 25 Nov 2015 23:05:27 -0500
Subject: DOSIR
Message-ID: <CANFTA08xvic+u+PBuZL=K9QN0c3Hy+4+JMWHmi_HujvEXpWMcg@mail.gmail.com>

I'm looking for old copies of the Daily Open Source Infrastructure Reports,
the copies I have only go back to late July. If anyone has previous
editions and is willing to share, it can help reduce future FOIA requests.

--Mike
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From grarpamp at gmail.com  Wed Nov 25 20:27:58 2015
From: grarpamp at gmail.com (grarpamp)
Date: Wed, 25 Nov 2015 23:27:58 -0500
Subject: [Cryptography] Pearl Harbor and Crypto
In-Reply-To: <A20A25A2-C74B-4EC8-BB9A-FC18A97C8990@me.com>
References: <A5780925-C2CB-4F89-B8C8-EE547CC00BBE@me.com>
 <E1a0WvT-0005qC-A2@elasmtp-dupuy.atl.sa.earthlink.net>
 <20151122153719.5d2bcde6@jabberwock.cb.piermont.com>
 <CAF4+nEGyNpazkj9s_3RaRb5-4Q3wPRA4L-vN9znhqS2-Zd0Tpw@mail.gmail.com>
 <A20A25A2-C74B-4EC8-BB9A-FC18A97C8990@me.com>
Message-ID: <CAD2Ti2-M15sGQukf5n3q7ahVhwoxaWaWDdwrwXV+edvZq2sWLg@mail.gmail.com>

On Wed, Nov 25, 2015 at 12:11 PM, Arnold Reinhold <agr at me.com> wrote:
> I’m surprised no one has proposed this simple system for dealing with the security implications of the European refugee crisis: when the refugees are being processed initially, give them all cheap cell phones or special SIM cards for the ones they already have. Then get a voice sample along with ID photo and other biometric data, say be asking them to test the phone. Give the refugees a modest monthly voice and text budget they can add to, more if they supply their own phone. The phones would serve a humanitarian purpose, helping the refugees get settled, find lost loved ones and look for work. But the phones would also allow them all to be tracked 7/24, just like the rest of us. Any phone that falls off the network or stops being used by the same voice would add its owner to a suspect list. The phones could even serve as a credential: “Cell phone please” instead of “Papers please” at checkpoints.

Tracking? Suspect (for casting off inhumane chains even, or any other
nonreason)? Internal checkpoints? Really?
Seems the global GDR is hiring lately, you better apply.

cc: cpunks due to censors




From grarpamp at gmail.com  Wed Nov 25 20:31:51 2015
From: grarpamp at gmail.com (grarpamp)
Date: Wed, 25 Nov 2015 23:31:51 -0500
Subject: DOSIR
In-Reply-To: <CANFTA08xvic+u+PBuZL=K9QN0c3Hy+4+JMWHmi_HujvEXpWMcg@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CANFTA08xvic+u+PBuZL=K9QN0c3Hy+4+JMWHmi_HujvEXpWMcg@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAD2Ti2-zt7h6r_kK1XpzKwuZQMvh7DqAiZ+7qmpp7y_=My8CgQ@mail.gmail.com>

On Wed, Nov 25, 2015 at 11:05 PM, Michael Best <themikebest at gmail.com> wrote:
> I'm looking for old copies of the Daily Open Source Infrastructure Reports,
> the copies I have only go back to late July. If anyone has previous editions
> and is willing to share, it can help reduce future FOIA requests.

Post links to your datasets so others can preserve, share, analyze,
journalize / blog / report / publish about, etc.




From coderman at gmail.com  Thu Nov 26 01:12:43 2015
From: coderman at gmail.com (coderman)
Date: Thu, 26 Nov 2015 01:12:43 -0800
Subject: FBI PSA: Hacktivists Threaten Law Enforcement
In-Reply-To: <CAO7N=i0OQ02nF0wjfP4xWOkDuoD=7G7FZHfdDkBnm5LvF=OXMA@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAO7N=i0OQ02nF0wjfP4xWOkDuoD=7G7FZHfdDkBnm5LvF=OXMA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAJVRA1Qxd0T6C2=rFW4nMpkOVLBVFQF=wFZmTSKNTF=-NgbdgQ@mail.gmail.com>

On Tue, Nov 24, 2015 at 2:23 PM, Ryan Carboni <ryacko at gmail.com> wrote:
> http://www.ic3.gov/media/2015/151118.aspx

bwahahaha!!



> Law enforcement personnel and public officials may be at increased risk of
> being targeted by hacktivists.

trololololololol!



> Hacking collectives are effective at
> leveraging open source, publicly available information identifying officers
> and public officials, their employers or associates, and their families.

kekekekeke!



> With this in mind, officers and public officials should be highly aware of
> their email account security and their online presence and exposure. For
> example, posting images wearing uniforms displaying name tags or listing
> their police department on social media sites can increase an officer's risk
> of being targeted or attacked.

*guffahchortlesnortblat*



> Many legitimate online posts are linked directly to personal social media
> accounts. Law enforcement personnel and public officials need to maintain an
> enhanced awareness of the content they post and how it may reflect on
> themselves, their family, and their employer, or how it could be used
> against them in court or during online attacks.

in a court OF LAW! bwahaha!


best regards,




From coderman at gmail.com  Thu Nov 26 01:15:08 2015
From: coderman at gmail.com (coderman)
Date: Thu, 26 Nov 2015 01:15:08 -0800
Subject: [cryptome] Re: Countdown to SHA-3 Collisions
In-Reply-To: <CAO7N=i1PFfcNM9-aHc7GTgrZ_jLe5O70LyJ3t=1VOnwVJ=vCKw@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CANFTA0_x9Nb4Tk4uU5JXSSFCPZc81e_6J8yY4jgNbSqbNFioHg@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAO7N=i1PFfcNM9-aHc7GTgrZ_jLe5O70LyJ3t=1VOnwVJ=vCKw@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAJVRA1SBtjcO+7Sh2sM6uwr8M3eT-qsgw9zqFHC4uT4tGeUSmw@mail.gmail.com>

On Tue, Nov 24, 2015 at 3:14 PM, Ryan Carboni <ryacko at gmail.com> wrote:
> ...
> The greatest issue that Keccak (pronounced ketchup) has is that it has a lot
> of side channels... like Rijndael.


you say that like software side channels are a bug, not a feature!
 ( ... :)




From coderman at gmail.com  Thu Nov 26 01:19:58 2015
From: coderman at gmail.com (coderman)
Date: Thu, 26 Nov 2015 01:19:58 -0800
Subject: oldspeak
In-Reply-To: <565538e9.478e8c0a.dc447.ffffff73@mx.google.com>
References: <565538e9.478e8c0a.dc447.ffffff73@mx.google.com>
Message-ID: <CAJVRA1R9swdXesCK18KpQvdMOxKCbdyHiAgkp50vx_yaJhCaug@mail.gmail.com>

On Tue, Nov 24, 2015 at 8:35 PM, juan <juan.g71 at gmail.com> wrote:
>         http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/terrorism?s=t
>         " noun : the use of violence and threats to intimidate or
>         coerce, especially for political purposes."
>
>         Oops. That just happen to be a description of the way *all*
>         governments operate.


you're missing the part where power wields violence for great justice
 ;)


[ the key is to always be on the side of power's justice... ]




From coderman at gmail.com  Thu Nov 26 01:22:36 2015
From: coderman at gmail.com (coderman)
Date: Thu, 26 Nov 2015 01:22:36 -0800
Subject: DOSIR
In-Reply-To: <CAD2Ti2-zt7h6r_kK1XpzKwuZQMvh7DqAiZ+7qmpp7y_=My8CgQ@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CANFTA08xvic+u+PBuZL=K9QN0c3Hy+4+JMWHmi_HujvEXpWMcg@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAD2Ti2-zt7h6r_kK1XpzKwuZQMvh7DqAiZ+7qmpp7y_=My8CgQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAJVRA1Rb=TGkgMWw=QvSYCnNXhMLhO=nVQ=dKQg+Fa8YjBRVMQ@mail.gmail.com>

On Wed, Nov 25, 2015 at 8:31 PM, grarpamp <grarpamp at gmail.com> wrote:
>...
> Post links to your datasets so others can preserve, share, analyze,
> journalize / blog / report / publish about, etc.


http://www.wired.com/2015/11/google-open-sourcing-tensorflow-shows-ais-future-is-data-not-code/

Google Open-Sourcing TensorFlow Shows AI’s Future Is Data

When Google open sourced its artificial intelligence engine last
week—freely sharing the code with the world at large—Lukas Biewald
didn’t see it as a triumph of the free software movement. He saw it as
a triumph of data.

That’s how you’d expect him to see it. He’s the CEO of the San
Francisco startup CrowdFlower, which helps online companies like
Twitter juggle massive amounts of data. But after spending time at the
Stanford AI Lab, he knows artificial intelligence. And his point is a
good one.

'What they're not opening up is their data. They would never do that.'
Lukas Biewald, CrowdFlower

In open sourcing the TensorFlow AI engine, Biewald says, Google showed
that, when it comes to AI, the real value lies not so much in the
software or the algorithms as in the data needed to make it all
smarter. Google is giving away the other stuff, but keeping the data.

“As companies become more data-driven, they feel more comfortable open
sourcing lots of [software]. They know they’re sitting on lots of
proprietary data that nobody else has access to,” says Biewald, who
also worked at Yahoo as a search engineer and helped bootstrap a
notable search startup called Powerset, now owned by Microsoft. “What
they’re not opening up is their data. They would never do that.”

Making Machines Smarter

Biewald compares this to IBM’s recent purchase of The Weather Channel,
where Big Blue paid millions largely to acquire data it could use to
feed its AI ambitions. “It’s interesting that while companies are
buying data, they’re open-sourcing their algorithms,” he says. “It’s
pretty clear where these companies’ bets are, in terms of what matters
for machine learning.”

TensorFlow, you see, deals in a form of AI called deep learning. With
deep learning, you teach systems to perform tasks such as recognizing
images, identifying spoken words, and even understanding natural
language by feeding data into vast neural networks connected machines
that approximate the web of neurons within the human brain. If you
feed photos of cats into a neural net, you can teach it to recognize
cats. If feed it conversational data, you can teach it to carry on
conversations.

The algorithms that drive these neural networks aren’t new. They date
to the 1980s. What’s new is that, thanks to the Internet, their
creators have the processing power and the enormous amounts of data to
make these algorithms viable. To teach a system to recognize a cat,
you need an awful lot of machines and an awful lot of cat photos.

After the rise of cloud computing, in which companies like Amazon and
Microsoft rent access to the vast processing power of the net, we all
have access to a vast arrays of machines. But the richest data sits
inside massive companies like Google and Facebook. Billions of people
use their services, which trade in a rich trove of information, from
text to photos to videos to speech and beyond. Both companies are hard
at work building powerful AI software. But their real competitive edge
comes from having a vast quantity of high quality data they can use to
teach this software to “think” more like a human.

To be sure, Biewald is exaggerating (at least a bit) to make a point.
Though Google has open sourced some very important piece of its AI
engine, it’s keeping other pieces to itself (at least for now). What
also matters in the competitive space is talent. Though the algorithms
that drive this technology are an old thing, they evolve at rapid
pace, moving into more and more areas, and this evolution is driven by
some very smart people.

That’s one of the reasons Google open sourced TensorFlow. If people
beyond the company can use its software, Google can more easily bring
talent and ideas into the company—and its software. It also can
continue to work with people who have left the company. “We have a lot
of summer interns coming in and they do a lot of interesting research
while they are here at Google,” says Jeff Dean, one of the Google
engineers at the heart of the company’s AI work. “For some kinds of
problems, they can basically just take their work and continue
developing it on the open source release of TensorFlow.”

''It's kinda hard for academics and startups to do really meaningful
machine learning work because they don't have access to the same kind
of datasets that a Google or an Apple would have.' Lukas Biewald

But there’s another reason Google can attract the top deep learning
researchers: its data. The same goes for Facebook and other Internet
giants. In recent years, many of the field’s top researchers already
have joined these companies, including University of Toronto professor
Geoff Hinton (now at Google), New York University professor Yann Lecun
(now at Facebook), and Stanford professor Andrew Ng (now at Chinese
search giant Baidu).

As Biedwald points out, you can’t necessarily get access to the same
data if you’re an academic. “It’s kinda hard for academics and
startups to do really meaningful machine learning work,” he says,
“because they don’t have access to the same kind of datasets that a
Google or an Apple would have.”

Yes, Apple generates lots of data too, through services like Siri. But
some feel Apple could be at a disadvantage because, after taking a
more extreme stance on privacy than Google and Facebook, it more
tightly restricts how its engineers can makes use of the data they do
have. That’s how important digital information is to this movement.
Ken Forbus, a professor of computer science at Northwestern University
who specializes in AI, believes Apple may have to rely more heavily on
technologies beyond of the deep learning realm because of its stance
on privacy.

There are many ways Apple can work around this, including changing its
privacy policies. Like Google and others, it has acquired its own deep
learning startups, and it has attracted AI talent in other ways. But
one thing is indisputable: The future of AI can’t happen without the
data.




From coderman at gmail.com  Thu Nov 26 01:30:25 2015
From: coderman at gmail.com (coderman)
Date: Thu, 26 Nov 2015 01:30:25 -0800
Subject: Moon of Alabama: Context Of Yesterday's Turkish Attack Against
 The Russian Jet
In-Reply-To: <5655F8AD.6010006@riseup.net>
References: <CAOsGNSSe6+XkVLCY+ydDEmgdqHWRwQsT9xuVeNNyfkq6QFazGw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAOsGNSRnEO7z9-gKsxniSkD2-MKkJ3hwtKxjWCAPFvxvD3K=UQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <5655F8AD.6010006@riseup.net>
Message-ID: <CAJVRA1Q6GopFkKJghioZEOqrCF6kBwuNkLPznBUM=6tbk-+OOQ@mail.gmail.com>

On Wed, Nov 25, 2015 at 10:06 AM, Razer <Rayzer at riseup.net> wrote:
>...
> But Obama, in my conclusion, still wants to drag NATO into Syria and
> wants to assemble enough forces "against ISIS" to be able to overwhelm
> the Syrian government and its Russian protectors. If that does not work
> he at least hopes to give Russia the Afghanistan like "quagmire" in
> Syria he and other U.S. officials promised. The again increasing
> tensions with U.S. proxy Ukraine only help in that regard.
> ...
> Obama continues his immensely destructive policies in the Middle East
> with zero regard to the all the bad outcomes these are likely to have
> for the people there as well as for Europe. One again wonders if all
> these action follow from sheer incompetence or from some devilish,
> ingenious strategic planning.


spoiler alert: every one else loses this game.

 [ and sadly, a brief success conflated with victory - when backlash imminent ]




From zen at freedbms.net  Thu Nov 26 00:10:18 2015
From: zen at freedbms.net (Zenaan Harkness)
Date: Thu, 26 Nov 2015 08:10:18 +0000
Subject: France - sadly not a friend of principle or truth
Message-ID: <CAOsGNSTXSW7fZbtj68DkPKm9zTDfWMjA6weAckqUaOg32mO5HA@mail.gmail.com>

So France again demonstrates they are America's lapdogs:

"[US president Obama and French president Hollande] criticised Russia
for hitting moderate Syrian opposition forces, which they said only
bolster President Bashar al-Assad’s government. Hollande would not
provide a date for Assad’s transition from power but said it must be
“as soon as possible.” "
http://www.theguardian.com/world/live/2015/nov/24/russian-jet-downed-by-turkish-planes-near-syrian-border-live-updates

Perhaps France would like to name, identify and locate the "moderate"
terrorists/ "rebels" (as Putin has asked for on multiple occasions)
and explain to the world how beheadings, and a machine gun shooting of
a pilot parachuting for his life, somehow constitute "moderate"
behaviour?

France - sadly no friend of principle or truth these days.

Again, almost all prominent politicians these days appear to be
utterly compromised, -and- beholden to USA's interests - France no
less than anyone else.

Again I say, Russian president Putin is close to the only true
statesmen on the world stage today. He has brought Russia back from
the absolute brink of total collapse after Yeltsin and Gorbachev, and
consistently matches his and Russia's actions with his words and vice
versa - the very definition of integrity (for those who have yet to do
so, I recommend reading his actual speeches from the last couple
years).

It is so sad to me that most of the Western world today is, evidently,
so utterly compromised (whether by money, sex or blackmail I can only
postulate, but this is a self evident fact based on the behaviour of
said politicians directly against the interests of their nations and
the people they supposedly represent - we can only put down to
stupidity a small proportion of all such compromised behaviour).

I am grateful that there is at least one leader of a major nation who
is not so compromised - this today is Vladimir Putin; I can only hope
that future Russian presidents sustain such a level of integrity and
commitment to national interests and his/her own people, as he does.
He is rightfully popular, and we ought be rightfully proud to have
such an example in front of us.

Too many things today brings tears to this advocate for sanity,
Zenaan




From andreas at junius.info  Wed Nov 25 14:41:22 2015
From: andreas at junius.info (andreas)
Date: Thu, 26 Nov 2015 08:11:22 +0930
Subject: "Following Paris attacks, encryption services face new scrutiny"
In-Reply-To: <1243600292.11320340.1448483857604.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com>
References: <1243600292.11320340.1448483857604.JavaMail.yahoo.ref@mail.yahoo.com>
 <1243600292.11320340.1448483857604.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <15140ceef6c.113d32140837069.3779988641796771182@junius.info>


---- On Thu, 26 Nov 2015 06:07:37 +0930 jim bell &lt;jdb10987 at yahoo.com&gt; wrote ---- 


 
http://news.yahoo.com/following-paris-attacks--encryption-services-face-new-scrutiny-154300219.html 
 
Following Paris attacks, encryption services face new scrutiny 
Alyssa Bereznak, Yahoo Tech By Alyssa Bereznak, Yahoo Tech 
 
.A crowd near the Eiffel tower a week after the start of the Paris attacks. (AP Photo/Laurent Cipriani) 
A crowd near the Eiffel tower a week after the start of the Paris attacks. (AP Photo/Laurent Cipriani) 
Four days after the Nov. 13 terrorist attacks that shook Paris, Pavel Durov, the founder and CEO of the messaging app Telegram, posted a photo on Instagram of himself on a balcony in France. In the image, he is dressed in black and looking off to the side, the Eiffel Tower in the background framing his stoic expression. If you saw it at a glance, you’d think it was a tribute to the mourning nation. But then there’s this caption: 
 
“I think the French government is as responsible as ISIS for this, because it is their policies and carelessness which eventually led to the tragedy,” it reads. “They take money away from hardworking people of France with outrageously high taxes and spend them on waging useless wars in the Middle East and on creating [a] parasitic social paradise for North African immigrants. It is a disgrace to see Paris in the hands of shortsighted socialists who ruin this beautiful place.” 
 
Though otherwise confusing, the statement made one thing clear: Durov would rather blame the tragedy that had befallen Paris on French taxes than call attention to the way members of the Islamic state have taken to using his encrypted messaging app to communicate. 
 

Funny that obviously everyone is convinced ISIS would use encryption and the only solution being mass surveillance. The opposite is the case, they do everything in the open, for everyone to read. Example: http://worldanalysis.net/14/2015/02/dabiq-issue-7-content-warning/ page 72. 
The lead terrorist of Paris Abdelhamid Abaaoud giving an interview and announcing the attacks.

Maybe the intelligence services should simply read the news.










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From kurt.buff at gmail.com  Thu Nov 26 09:47:55 2015
From: kurt.buff at gmail.com (Kurt Buff)
Date: Thu, 26 Nov 2015 09:47:55 -0800
Subject: Moon of Alabama: Context Of Yesterday's Turkish Attack Against
 The Russian Jet
In-Reply-To: <CAOsGNSS=O-PZH4mBn+BBBii0K29mzpQJLd5emijxJGzmUrHU2A@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAOsGNSSe6+XkVLCY+ydDEmgdqHWRwQsT9xuVeNNyfkq6QFazGw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAOsGNSRnEO7z9-gKsxniSkD2-MKkJ3hwtKxjWCAPFvxvD3K=UQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <5655F8AD.6010006@riseup.net>
 <CAOsGNSS=O-PZH4mBn+BBBii0K29mzpQJLd5emijxJGzmUrHU2A@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CADy1Ce7N8ZjBiXDGuhix39jzKq=YkowJyqTc1=e8ZD6PSa9=Ng@mail.gmail.com>

Afghanistan and Russo-Japanese wars.

I'd say they started and lost both of them.

Kurt

On Thu, Nov 26, 2015 at 2:16 AM, Zenaan Harkness <zen at freedbms.net> wrote:
> On 11/25/15, Razer <Rayzer at riseup.net> wrote:
> ...
>>This article is copiously linked at Moon of Alabama
>>http://www.moonofalabama.org/2015/11/the-context-of-yesterdays-turkish-attack-against-the-russian-jet.html
>
> [numerous foreign airspace violations by Turkey elided]
>
> Out of interest, is there a word for "hypocrite" in the Turk's native language?
>
>
>> The attack on the Russian plane was preconceived on November 22 when a
>> security summit was held with the Turkish government under Prime
>> Minister Davutoğlu and the Turkish Armed Forces. Davutoğlu personally
>> gave the order to shoot down Russian planes. This, Turkey says, was
>> necessary to stop Russian bombing of "Turkmen" in north Syria's Latakia
>> near the Turkish border.
>
> Well that plan didn't quite come together - with Russia's navy now on
> a hair trigger "shoot to kill any air based threat" order (and Russia
> closing their military comm lines with Turkey), Turkey had no option
> but to ground their F-16 fleet.
>
> There's a saying widely used in Russia - Russia never starts a war,
> but she always ends them.
>
> The terrorists, whether you call them moderate or otherwise, have
> spread from the middle east (including Syria) to France, Russia and
> other countries. Russia will end this war in Syria, with or without
> support from "the West" - in defence of the sovereignty of Syria (the
> overthrow of which by Western powers as we now know was planned and
> attempted since decades ago), in defence of the Christians and other
> minorities of Syria, and in defence of Russia's interests such as the
> defence of a long time ally, as dignity and pride demands.
>
> France's Napoleon, the Ottoman Empire, WWII Germany and more - when
> you begin war against Russia, you sign your own "going to lose"
> warrant. So Rule #1 of war is, make agreement with Russia prior to
> starting war, no matter who else you are going to war with.
>
> Rule #2 of war - refer to Rule #1.
>
> Quite simple really.
>
> Regards,
> Zenaan
>




From zen at freedbms.net  Thu Nov 26 02:16:04 2015
From: zen at freedbms.net (Zenaan Harkness)
Date: Thu, 26 Nov 2015 10:16:04 +0000
Subject: Moon of Alabama: Context Of Yesterday's Turkish Attack Against
 The Russian Jet
In-Reply-To: <5655F8AD.6010006@riseup.net>
References: <CAOsGNSSe6+XkVLCY+ydDEmgdqHWRwQsT9xuVeNNyfkq6QFazGw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAOsGNSRnEO7z9-gKsxniSkD2-MKkJ3hwtKxjWCAPFvxvD3K=UQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <5655F8AD.6010006@riseup.net>
Message-ID: <CAOsGNSS=O-PZH4mBn+BBBii0K29mzpQJLd5emijxJGzmUrHU2A@mail.gmail.com>

On 11/25/15, Razer <Rayzer at riseup.net> wrote:
...
>This article is copiously linked at Moon of Alabama
>http://www.moonofalabama.org/2015/11/the-context-of-yesterdays-turkish-attack-against-the-russian-jet.html

[numerous foreign airspace violations by Turkey elided]

Out of interest, is there a word for "hypocrite" in the Turk's native language?


> The attack on the Russian plane was preconceived on November 22 when a
> security summit was held with the Turkish government under Prime
> Minister Davutoğlu and the Turkish Armed Forces. Davutoğlu personally
> gave the order to shoot down Russian planes. This, Turkey says, was
> necessary to stop Russian bombing of "Turkmen" in north Syria's Latakia
> near the Turkish border.

Well that plan didn't quite come together - with Russia's navy now on
a hair trigger "shoot to kill any air based threat" order (and Russia
closing their military comm lines with Turkey), Turkey had no option
but to ground their F-16 fleet.

There's a saying widely used in Russia - Russia never starts a war,
but she always ends them.

The terrorists, whether you call them moderate or otherwise, have
spread from the middle east (including Syria) to France, Russia and
other countries. Russia will end this war in Syria, with or without
support from "the West" - in defence of the sovereignty of Syria (the
overthrow of which by Western powers as we now know was planned and
attempted since decades ago), in defence of the Christians and other
minorities of Syria, and in defence of Russia's interests such as the
defence of a long time ally, as dignity and pride demands.

France's Napoleon, the Ottoman Empire, WWII Germany and more - when
you begin war against Russia, you sign your own "going to lose"
warrant. So Rule #1 of war is, make agreement with Russia prior to
starting war, no matter who else you are going to war with.

Rule #2 of war - refer to Rule #1.

Quite simple really.

Regards,
Zenaan




From zen at freedbms.net  Thu Nov 26 02:54:53 2015
From: zen at freedbms.net (Zenaan Harkness)
Date: Thu, 26 Nov 2015 10:54:53 +0000
Subject: oldspeak
In-Reply-To: <CAJVRA1R9swdXesCK18KpQvdMOxKCbdyHiAgkp50vx_yaJhCaug@mail.gmail.com>
References: <565538e9.478e8c0a.dc447.ffffff73@mx.google.com>
 <CAJVRA1R9swdXesCK18KpQvdMOxKCbdyHiAgkp50vx_yaJhCaug@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAOsGNSRYSTj3TVDKtpV9tFbiCS_pjeYe6z2+geGg+fWSK7SVJQ@mail.gmail.com>

On 11/26/15, coderman <coderman at gmail.com> wrote:
> On Tue, Nov 24, 2015 at 8:35 PM, juan <juan.g71 at gmail.com> wrote:
>>         http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/terrorism?s=t
>>         " noun : the use of violence and threats to intimidate or
>>         coerce, especially for political purposes."
>>
>>         Oops. That just happen to be a description of the way *all*
>>         governments operate.
>
> you're missing the part where power wields violence for great justice

Power, money, electricity and other assorted tools of human
experience. May we each act wisely.


> [ the key is to always be on the side of power's justice... ]

Most don't get to choose in what nation they be. But within many
limits we have specific freedoms - we can make certain choices.

Let's look at it this way - could the key be to know one's conscience
(knowledge of good and evil), to bind oneself to good, and to exercise
as much power as is within one's domain of action, in the pursuit of
good and to make no compromise (to expedience or otherwise)?

Bind oneself, then bind those entities such as corporations one
creates, to good. Google began by stating such an intent ("do no evil"
as was proudly proclaimed) then later, the individuals in control of
(the power of) Google-the-corporation, they surrendered that control,
surrendered their sovereignty, for an "Initial Public Offering", i.e.
for money, to cash out, i.e. for the short term gain of money and
shares, and compromising on principle of "do no evil" to something
much lesser (grow the company more quickly than would happen naturally
otherwise, try to do some good in China by providing search services,
but whilst compromising Google's fundamental principle to achieve
these ends).

Google's founders compromised their foundation ethic, in essence
saying "the ends (intended or hoped for result) justifies the means
(compromise of principle)". Almost all humans we see today, who attain
a position of power, make at a minimum, this type of compromise, if
not much greater/ worse compromises.

I bind myself to never making a compromise of the highest principle I
am able to conceive. If I can't do it "right", I won't do it - there
is always something else I can do, and do it "right". When we of
competence in this world involve ourselves with one another, let us
cause each other to bind strongly to the highest "good" principles we
are able to conceive, and to never make any compromise of expedience,
and to implement technical measures to support these binds to the
greatest extent of our ability (e.g. digital canaries). Let us be
clear and bold and public in our binds, proclaiming to the world those
principles for which we stand and for which we spend our life energy
and for which we spend our attention.

In these ways may we live in dignity and strive for something higher
than only comfort for our physical bodies. In these ways may we
inspire those who come after us.

Regards,
Zenaan




From Rayzer at riseup.net  Thu Nov 26 11:11:14 2015
From: Rayzer at riseup.net (Rayzer)
Date: Thu, 26 Nov 2015 11:11:14 -0800
Subject: The (Technological) Shadows in the Cave
In-Reply-To: <CAOsGNSRiKOW0f3pwoOwx6ri12-29evj6mvVSw88faraNn-gGaw@mail.gmail.com>
References: <56567B84.6030404@riseup.net>
 <CAOsGNSRiKOW0f3pwoOwx6ri12-29evj6mvVSw88faraNn-gGaw@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <56575952.6030401@riseup.net>

Zenaan Harkness wrote:
> I guess that's why all "great" revolutionaries (Pol Pot, Stalin, Mao)
> slaughter

Gandhian pacifism works to (eventually) oust external invaders (albeit
there were armed elements of Indian resistance to the brits).

UNFORTUNATELY, ousting one's own despots or replacing traditional
governments (Russian Czarists) usually looks more like Mussolini hanging
from a lamp post, or pick one of the above's  methods

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From Rayzer at riseup.net  Thu Nov 26 11:21:04 2015
From: Rayzer at riseup.net (Rayzer)
Date: Thu, 26 Nov 2015 11:21:04 -0800
Subject: Moon of Alabama: Context Of Yesterday's Turkish Attack Against
 The Russian Jet
In-Reply-To: <CAOsGNSS=O-PZH4mBn+BBBii0K29mzpQJLd5emijxJGzmUrHU2A@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAOsGNSSe6+XkVLCY+ydDEmgdqHWRwQsT9xuVeNNyfkq6QFazGw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAOsGNSRnEO7z9-gKsxniSkD2-MKkJ3hwtKxjWCAPFvxvD3K=UQ@mail.gmail.com>
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 <CAOsGNSS=O-PZH4mBn+BBBii0K29mzpQJLd5emijxJGzmUrHU2A@mail.gmail.com>
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From afalex169 at gmail.com  Thu Nov 26 01:43:51 2015
From: afalex169 at gmail.com (=?UTF-8?B?INCQ0LvQtdC60YHQsNC90LTRgCA=?=)
Date: Thu, 26 Nov 2015 11:43:51 +0200
Subject: France - sadly not a friend of principle or truth
In-Reply-To: <CAOsGNSTXSW7fZbtj68DkPKm9zTDfWMjA6weAckqUaOg32mO5HA@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAOsGNSTXSW7fZbtj68DkPKm9zTDfWMjA6weAckqUaOg32mO5HA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAEm6KbL4QPu4fCMGOkqWcdqc_Guqv5s--mtX4MSgGWpmAiDJhg@mail.gmail.com>

>
> ​France - sadly no friend of principle or truth these days.
>
> Again I say, Russian president Putin is close to the only true
>> statesmen on the world stage today.
>>
>
>
Zenaan, *there is no country except Russia that is a friend to the Truth*.
Not only France. And i say so not because i am russian at all, believe me.
Even the Chinese/Indian/Belorussian/Argentinian... who declare (sometimes)
some speeches that are friendly to Russia/to the Truth - are no more than
hypocritical dogs. Because when there is some kind of pressure/exam... you
NEVER see them.

For example, look now with the destroyed jet/look with the "Ukraine case" -
was there any truly *unambiguous* and *consistent*  country FOR the Truth?!
Where were/are the Chinese - the "best" and the most powerful friends of
Russia with truly categorical *speeches and actions* to support Russia even
now?
There is nothing except some ambiguous barking (in the best case). As
usually.

Money/other benefits is everybody's only interest. No moral values. No
standing for the Truth.
Except Putin
!


It is so sad to me that most of the Western world today is, evidently, so
> utterly compromised
>
Not just the Western. But the Eastern world too. Chinese, Japanese,
Indian... - they are no better. They are just poorer *or* weaker *or* even
more hypocritical than the West ... but give some more power to the weaker
or look deep inside the hypocritical... and you will see exactly the same
"Western" picture.

I read a lot of sources. I was in many countries...unfortunately, everyone
is compromised except Putin and his closest 2/3 comrades (i am talking
about the ruling elite/politicians in other countries -> as a consequence,
*~90%* of the people, because they believe them. That's the reality - we
accept it or not)


I am grateful that there is at least one leader of a major nation who
> is not so compromised - this today is Vladimir Putin.
>
+ 1.
And not only today. But for the past 15 years.
We could only imagine what is it like to be the ONLY one who fights against
the whole compromised/rotten part of the world!


I can only hope that future Russian presidents sustain such a level of
> integrity and
> commitment to national interests and his/her own people, as he does.
>
Me too, my friend. And it is very important to understand, that Putin is
not committed ONLY to the Russian's national interests, *but to the
interests of all the **(sane) people of the whole world.* Putin is
committed to the interests of the Americans, French, Chinese, Africans,
South Americans people...
it's their own ruling elite which is AGAINST them. Not Putin.

I call for all the SANE people from this list - *support Russia*. Stop
believing to the western lying and deceitful propaganda. Don't give them
power by believing them. Nowadays, the most important questions are
"whom do you believe" and
"do you think critically, or swallow everything they feed you with".

Read Russian *reliable* and *objective* sources. Here are some of them:
https://www.rt.com/
http://russia-insider.com/en
http://fortruss.blogspot.ru/
http://www.counterpunch.org/

Alexander.
___

P.S.
And i wish much more people were like you, Zenaan.
Thank you for giving me hope.
__



So France again demonstrates they are America's lapdogs:

"[US president Obama and French president Hollande] criticised Russia
for hitting moderate Syrian opposition forces, which they said only
bolster President Bashar al-Assad’s government. Hollande would not
provide a date for Assad’s transition from power but said it must be
“as soon as possible.” "
http://www.theguardian.com/world/live/2015/nov/24/russian-jet-downed-by-turkish-planes-near-syrian-border-live-updates

Perhaps France would like to name, identify and locate the "moderate"
terrorists/ "rebels" (as Putin has asked for on multiple occasions)
and explain to the world how beheadings, and a machine gun shooting of
a pilot parachuting for his life, somehow constitute "moderate"
behaviour?

France - sadly no friend of principle or truth these days.

Again, almost all prominent politicians these days appear to be
utterly compromised, -and- beholden to USA's interests - France no
less than anyone else.

Again I say, Russian president Putin is close to the only true
statesmen on the world stage today. He has brought Russia back from
the absolute brink of total collapse after Yeltsin and Gorbachev, and
consistently matches his and Russia's actions with his words and vice
versa - the very definition of integrity (for those who have yet to do
so, I recommend reading his actual speeches from the last couple
years).

It is so sad to me that most of the Western world today is, evidently,
so utterly compromised (whether by money, sex or blackmail I can only
postulate, but this is a self evident fact based on the behaviour of
said politicians directly against the interests of their nations and
the people they supposedly represent - we can only put down to
stupidity a small proportion of all such compromised behaviour).

I am grateful that there is at least one leader of a major nation who
is not so compromised - this today is Vladimir Putin; I can only hope
that future Russian presidents sustain such a level of integrity and
commitment to national interests and his/her own people, as he does.
He is rightfully popular, and we ought be rightfully proud to have
such an example in front of us.

Too many things today brings tears to this advocate for sanity,
Zenaan
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From Rayzer at riseup.net  Thu Nov 26 12:32:55 2015
From: Rayzer at riseup.net (Rayzer)
Date: Thu, 26 Nov 2015 12:32:55 -0800
Subject: 900 Embedded Devices Share Hard-Coded Certs, SSH Host Keys
Message-ID: <56576C77.2080402@riseup.net>

900 Embedded Devices Share Hard-Coded Certs, SSH Host Keys

Posted by timothy on Thursday November 26, 2015 @03:00PM from the
same-assembly-line dept.

An anonymous reader writes:

Embedded devices of some 50 manufacturers has been found sharing the
same hard-coded X.509 certificates (for HTTPS) and SSH host keys, a fact
that can be exploited by a remote, unauthenticated attacker to carry out
impersonation, man-in-the-middle, or passive decryption attacks
<http://www.net-security.org/secworld.php?id=19159>.

SEC Consult has analyzed firmware images of more than 4000 embedded
devices of over 70 vendors — firmware of routers, IP cameras, VoIP
phones, modems, etc. — and found that, in some cases, there are nearly
half a million devices on the web using the same certificate.

http://hardware.slashdot.org/story/15/11/26/1541216/900-embedded-devices-share-hard-coded-certs-ssh-host-keys


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From Rayzer at riseup.net  Thu Nov 26 12:34:27 2015
From: Rayzer at riseup.net (Rayzer)
Date: Thu, 26 Nov 2015 12:34:27 -0800
Subject: (Resend)Moon of Alabama: Context Of Yesterday's Turkish Attack
 Against The Russian Jet
In-Reply-To: <CAOsGNSS=O-PZH4mBn+BBBii0K29mzpQJLd5emijxJGzmUrHU2A@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAOsGNSSe6+XkVLCY+ydDEmgdqHWRwQsT9xuVeNNyfkq6QFazGw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAOsGNSRnEO7z9-gKsxniSkD2-MKkJ3hwtKxjWCAPFvxvD3K=UQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <5655F8AD.6010006@riseup.net>
 <CAOsGNSS=O-PZH4mBn+BBBii0K29mzpQJLd5emijxJGzmUrHU2A@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <56576CD3.6080408@riseup.net>


Migrating stuff to Seamonkey including enigmail... I think the first
send was encrypted accidentally

Zenaan Harkness wrote:
> Out of interest, is there a word for "hypocrite" in the Turk's native
> language?

> "A short-term border violation can never be a pretext for an attack”
> - President ‪Erdogan‬, 2012 after ‪Syria‬ downed a Turkish F-3 Phantom



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From zen at freedbms.net  Thu Nov 26 05:38:05 2015
From: zen at freedbms.net (Zenaan Harkness)
Date: Thu, 26 Nov 2015 13:38:05 +0000
Subject: The (Technological) Shadows in the Cave
In-Reply-To: <56567B84.6030404@riseup.net>
References: <56567B84.6030404@riseup.net>
Message-ID: <CAOsGNSRiKOW0f3pwoOwx6ri12-29evj6mvVSw88faraNn-gGaw@mail.gmail.com>

On 11/26/15, Razer <Rayzer at riseup.net> wrote:
> Thought I'd throw this out there...
>
> The Archdruid Report
>
> Druid perspectives on nature, culture, and the future of industrial society
...
> Here again,
> there’s some heavy-duty illogic involved.

Damn how humans can be scary. If Intelligence at one end of a scale
(e.g. "inability to grok a concept, say 'filter', leading to
aggression leading to lynching") is a threat to me (who might not grok
filter, but at least recognises it's just a word), then intelligence
towards the other end of the scale might well be seen as a threat to
those towards the first end of the scale.

I guess that's why all "great" revolutionaries (Pol Pot, Stalin, Mao)
slaughter those at one particular end of the scale - from Cambodia to
Russia, a new ideology must destroy those who might question the new
"religious" ideology - extremism must destroy those opponents to, i.e.
those who are competent to challenge, the newly imposed extremism.




From rysiek at hackerspace.pl  Thu Nov 26 13:55:35 2015
From: rysiek at hackerspace.pl (rysiek)
Date: Thu, 26 Nov 2015 22:55:35 +0100
Subject: 900 Embedded Devices Share Hard-Coded Certs, SSH Host Keys
In-Reply-To: <56576C77.2080402@riseup.net>
References: <56576C77.2080402@riseup.net>
Message-ID: <2705380.1qYssUYryz@lapuntu>

Dnia czwartek, 26 listopada 2015 12:32:55 Rayzer pisze:
> 900 Embedded Devices Share Hard-Coded Certs, SSH Host Keys
> 
> (...)
> SEC Consult has analyzed firmware images of more than 4000 embedded
> devices of over 70 vendors — firmware of routers, IP cameras, VoIP
> phones, modems, etc. — and found that, in some cases, there are nearly
> half a million devices on the web using the same certificate.

Internet of Things? What could possibly go wrong?..

-- 
Pozdrawiam,
Michał "rysiek" Woźniak

Zmieniam klucz GPG :: http://rys.io/pl/147
GPG Key Transition :: http://rys.io/en/147
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From zen at freedbms.net  Thu Nov 26 15:32:56 2015
From: zen at freedbms.net (Zenaan Harkness)
Date: Thu, 26 Nov 2015 23:32:56 +0000
Subject: NATO member Turkey just shot down Russian military jet
In-Reply-To: <CAOsGNSSe6+XkVLCY+ydDEmgdqHWRwQsT9xuVeNNyfkq6QFazGw@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAOsGNSSe6+XkVLCY+ydDEmgdqHWRwQsT9xuVeNNyfkq6QFazGw@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAOsGNSRJZAyzb-Lio80VYLHB1uzyzaFus2W0T40xfAm_N2gixA@mail.gmail.com>

On 11/24/15, Zenaan Harkness <zen at freedbms.net> wrote:
> "According to Putin, Russia has always treated Turkey not simply as a
> close neighbour, but as a friendly state." I guess that position is
> now officially off the table. May be not the smartest move by Turkey?
> I'm not getting the feeling that shooting down a Russian jet in Syria
> was a good idea (even if it had been in Turkish airspace minutes
> prior).

That would be, as we now have been informed by the leak of the Turkish
diplomatic communication to NATO immediately after the shoot down,
'for at most 17 seconds'.

> I hope this does not escalate.

Well, Russia responded with a "moderate bombs" bombing campaign, a
rather vigorous campaign it seems (albeit a moderate one), around the
area where the Russian Su-24 jet moderately crashed in Syria after
being moderately shot down in Syrian airspace by the moderate Turkish
F-16, and one of the two Russian pilots was moderately machine gunned
to a moderate death in the air as he parachuted to the ground. Perhaps
a Geneva War Crimes Convention violation declaration will be
forthcoming (just a moderate one though) only not too soon that might
be considered an unwanted, if moderate, escalation of the situation.

In all seriousness, Russia responded quite moderately and I'm grateful
there has been no overt escalation.

Regards,
Zenaan




From zen at freedbms.net  Thu Nov 26 17:11:51 2015
From: zen at freedbms.net (Zenaan Harkness)
Date: Fri, 27 Nov 2015 01:11:51 +0000
Subject: Americans! An American to support:- Ron Paul: 'The Neocon Wolf is At
 the Door'
Message-ID: <CAOsGNSR3Fh6V4JEOUGsJjLjqRmghniogaRr=dAwxme=Z_20oAg@mail.gmail.com>

Ron Paul is starting to be heard. It's a good sign.
http://russia-insider.com/en/politics/ron-paul-neocon-wolf-door/ri11437

Especially when this is what the neocons currently controlling America
do to the voices of reason:
Former US Defense Chief Backs International Coalition Against ISIS (Chuck Hagel)
http://russia-insider.com/en/chuck-hagel-backs-international-coalition-against-isis/ri11463
(Sacked by Obama late last year.)


In other news:

Turkish Prime Minister declares he personally gave the order to shoot
down Russian jet the other day:
http://russia-insider.com/en/politics/i-gave-order-myself-turkish-pm-downing-russian-plane/ri11456
(I was initially surprised and suspect Erdogan required Davutoglu put
his head on the public chopping block, but who knows ...)

The German media seem to be steadily getting it:
Evidence Is Mounting That Islamic State Is Offspring of the US
http://russia-insider.com/en/afraid-truth-islamic-state-offspring-us/ri11408

Depending on your mindset, may bring a smile to a weary face:
The Classic Rules For Combating Turkish Aggression
http://russia-insider.com/en/politics/classic-rules-combatting-turkish-aggression/ri11446

And a reminder once again, political discourse within Russian
population is -way- ahead of Australia, USA, etc (thank God there is
some discourse somewhere on a broader scale than a niche mailing
list):
How Ordinary Russians See the Western-Russian Stand Off
http://russia-insider.com/en/ordinary-russians-ordinary-americans-were-same-side/ri11410

Regards,
Zenaan

PS Not sure anyone noticed, but I am finding russia-insider.com to be
quite a good aggregation site, as well putting out their own articles
and opinion pieces here and there.




From dan at geer.org  Fri Nov 27 07:58:50 2015
From: dan at geer.org (dan at geer.org)
Date: Fri, 27 Nov 2015 10:58:50 -0500
Subject: The Gentleman's Guide To Forum Spies (spooks, feds, etc.)
In-Reply-To: Your message of "Thu, 12 Nov 2015 14:09:30 -0500."
 <CAKtE3zdApWSbZhCWr0Mf-GfuhP=R93i+B1274vxymVZdNziN9w@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <20151127155850.D7E89A06DE8@palinka.tinho.net>

http://scottbarrykaufman.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/02/trolls-just-want-to-have-fun.pdf

Trolls just want to have fun
Erin E. Buckels, Paul D. Trapnell, Delroy L. Paulhus
Personality and Individual Differences, v67 (2014), pp97-102

In two online studies (total N = 1215), respondents completed
personality inventories and a survey of their Internet commenting
styles.  Overall, strong positive associations emerged among online
commenting frequency, trolling enjoyment, and troll identity,
pointing to a common construct underlying the measures.  Both studies
revealed similar patterns of relations between trolling and the
Dark Tetrad (*) of personality: trolling correlated positively with
sadism, psychopathy, and Machiavellianism, using both enjoyment
ratings and identity scores.  Of all personality measures, sadism
showed the most robust associations with trolling and, importantly,
the relationship was specific to trolling behavior.  Enjoyment of
other online activities, such as chatting and debating, was unrelated
to sadism.  Thus cyber-trolling appears to be an Internet manifestation
of everyday sadism.


(*) Dark Tetrad: sadism, psychopathy, narcissism, Machiavellianism





From zen at freedbms.net  Fri Nov 27 03:17:06 2015
From: zen at freedbms.net (Zenaan Harkness)
Date: Fri, 27 Nov 2015 11:17:06 +0000
Subject: Fwd: General Wesley Clark: Wars Were Planned - Seven Countries In
 Five Years
In-Reply-To: <CAEm6KbLDK0CMCd+fx+Pe3SM16VFv0g75jTq5nhm_GSD3p7Rb9w@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAEm6KbLDK0CMCd+fx+Pe3SM16VFv0g75jTq5nhm_GSD3p7Rb9w@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAOsGNSRFhCLtm3S5uCnXtpCQ4SZvh_qJTdJ5n4r_a7x+K3TH5g@mail.gmail.com>

I recommend General Wesley Clark for those who have not seen it (was
new to me).  Lays out American government's plans shortly after 9/11,
to take down seven countries' governments; similar to Brzezinski's
book of predictions similarly a year or so prior (see below).

General Wesley Clark: Wars Were Planned - Seven Countries In Five Years
(Although I paste the transcript here, I find this interview quite
enjoyable to watch, and it's only 8MB, although the video does not
include the last couple sentences from the transcript, and the video
does add separate little section of its own, again General Wesley;
enjoy.)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9RC1Mepk_Sw
"General Wesley Clark:
Because I had been through the Pentagon right after 9/11. About ten
days after 9/11, I went through the Pentagon and I saw Secretary
Rumsfeld and Deputy Secretary Wolfowitz. I went downstairs just to say
hello to some of the people on the Joint Staff who used to work for
me, and one of the generals called me in. He said, "Sir, you've got to
come in and talk to me a second." I said, "Well, you're too busy." He
said, "No, no." He says, "We've made the decision we're going to war
with Iraq." This was on or about the 20th of September. I said, "We're
going to war with Iraq? Why?" He said, "I don't know." He said, "I
guess they don't know what else to do." So I said, "Well, did they
find some information connecting Saddam to al-Qaeda?" He said, "No,
no." He says, "There's nothing new that way. They just made the
decision to go to war with Iraq." He said, "I guess it's like we don't
know what to do about terrorists, but we've got a good military and we
can take down governments." And he said, "I guess if the only tool you
have is a hammer, every problem has to look like a nail."

So I came back to see him a few weeks later, and by that time we were
bombing in Afghanistan. I said, "Are we still going to war with Iraq?"
And he said, "Oh, it's worse than that." He reached over on his desk.
He picked up a piece of paper. And he said, "I just got this down from
upstairs" -- meaning the Secretary of Defense's office -- "today." And
he said, "This is a memo that describes how we're going to take out
seven countries in five years, starting with Iraq, and then Syria,
Lebanon, Libya, Somalia, Sudan and, finishing off, Iran." I said, "Is
it classified?" He said, "Yes, sir." I said, "Well, don't show it to
me." And I saw him a year or so ago, and I said, "You remember that?"
He said, "Sir, I didn't show you that memo! I didn't show it to you!"
"

(Looking at youtube, there appears quite a few talks by General Wesley Clark.)

New Edition of Brzezinski's Book Spotlights US Strategy in Eurasia
http://russia-insider.com/en/americas-hegemony-and-europes-place-chessboard/ri11420

Also breaking news:
Turkey Intel Chief: Putin's Intervention in Syria Is Against Islam,
ISIS Is a Reality That We Accept
http://russia-insider.com/en/turkish-intelligence-chief-putins-intervention-syria-against-islam-and-international-law-isis
(This from October - last month.)
“ISIS is a reality and we have to accept that we cannot eradicate a
well-organized and popular establishment such as the Islamic State;
therefore I urge my western colleagues to revise their mindset about
Islamic political currents, put aside their cynical mentalité and
thwart Vladimir Putin's plans to crush Syrian Islamist
revolutionaries,” - Anadolu News Agency quoted Mr. Fidan as saying on
Sunday.




From 3ndless at riseup.net  Fri Nov 27 16:51:02 2015
From: 3ndless at riseup.net (Endless)
Date: Sat, 28 Nov 2015 00:51:02 +0000
Subject: Fwd: Re: France - sadly not a friend of principle or truth
Message-ID: <5658FA76.6030706@riseup.net>

>>
>> Again I say, Russian president Putin is close to the only true
>> statesmen on the world stage today.
>>
>>
> Zenaan, *there is no country except Russia that is a friend to the Truth*.
> Not only France. And i say so not because i am russian at all, believe me.
> Even the Chinese/Indian/Belorussian/Argentinian... who declare (sometimes)
> some speeches that are friendly to Russia/to the Truth - are no more than
> hypocritical dogs. Because when there is some kind of pressure/exam... you
> NEVER see them.
> 
> For example, look now with the destroyed jet/look with the "Ukraine case" -
> was there any truly *unambiguous* and *consistent*  country FOR the Truth?!
> 
> Money/other benefits is everybody's only interest. No moral values. No
> standing for the Truth.
> Except Putin
> 

Confusing the absolute "truth" with "moral values" would indeed pose a
tricky dilemma in the situation of Vladimir Putin. If you consider Putin
to be unilaterally upholding the truth whilst at the same time upholding
moral values, such a position would be rapidly contradicted when
comparing Putin's attitude towards the right of LGBT people to exist to
that of the West, considering of course that by "moral values", Putin
indeed upholds basic human rights.

Indeed, the torture and killings perpetrated by Putin's lower levels of
government and covered from up high, a fact of life that comes with
having been a member of the soviet union, must definitely reflect upon
Putin's willingness to publicize the truth, whether it would be in his
country's (capitalist) interest.
Furthermore, Putin's involvement against ISIS (or Daesh, for those who
prefer it) is but another part of Putin's manipulation for influence in
the middle east, tying in with involvement in Ukraine, games with NATO
and economic sanctions placed against Russia by the western world.

I strongly doubt that Putin's actions are not motivated by money and the
so-called "benefits" that come with setting up a slew of back room
agreements between countries. Instead, agreements promoting corruption
and the oppression of free speech are mainly set up with non-western
countries, reducing the ability for western media to catch a hold of
them and call Putin out, a result of the more secretive systems of
government that tend to exist in the East.

>>
>> It is so sad to me that most of the Western world today is, evidently, so
>> utterly compromised
>>

Although the problem of political corruption and the utter inability of
any political party to avoid completely sacrificing any hope of measly
integrity is primarily associated with the West, Eastern governments are
not exempt. It is not that such problems are isolated to a particular
section of the world, but instead cover the globe itself.

>>
>> I can only hope that future Russian presidents sustain such a level of
>> integrity and
>> commitment to national interests and his/her own people, as he does.
>>

> Me too, my friend. And it is very important to understand, that Putin is
> not committed ONLY to the Russian's national interests, *but to the
> interests of all the **(sane) people of the whole world.*

Oh yes, considering that the citizens of South Ossetia, Abkhazia and
Crimea are not Putin's own people.
Given Putin's partial invasion of Georgia and the Ukraine, it would be
ludicrous to believe that he is acting in the interests of the Georgian
and Ukrainian people. Russia's actions, although in his eyes quite
likely reflect an act of protection by Russia, are solely motivated by
economic or military reasoning, furthering Russia's troublesome
influence in an already unstable region.


It must be kept in mind that although Russia may have a tendency to cut
through the grime that obscures Western policy making, Russia (and
thereby Vladimir Putin) is not exempt from the corruption evident in
today's world by cause of modern capitalist and nationalistic sentiment.

I truly hope that the belief that Putin is an "unambiguous and
consistent friend to the truth" is but pure satire, intended to spark a
lively debate.

All the best,
Endless


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From 3ndless at riseup.net  Fri Nov 27 16:51:32 2015
From: 3ndless at riseup.net (Endless)
Date: Sat, 28 Nov 2015 00:51:32 +0000
Subject: France - sadly not a friend of principle or truth
Message-ID: <5658FA94.3080400@riseup.net>

>>
>> Again I say, Russian president Putin is close to the only true
>> statesmen on the world stage today.
>>
>>
> Zenaan, *there is no country except Russia that is a friend to the Truth*.
> Not only France. And i say so not because i am russian at all, believe me.
> Even the Chinese/Indian/Belorussian/Argentinian... who declare (sometimes)
> some speeches that are friendly to Russia/to the Truth - are no more than
> hypocritical dogs. Because when there is some kind of pressure/exam... you
> NEVER see them.
> 
> For example, look now with the destroyed jet/look with the "Ukraine case" -
> was there any truly *unambiguous* and *consistent*  country FOR the Truth?!
> 
> Money/other benefits is everybody's only interest. No moral values. No
> standing for the Truth.
> Except Putin
> 

Confusing the absolute "truth" with "moral values" would indeed pose a
tricky dilemma in the situation of Vladimir Putin. If you consider Putin
to be unilaterally upholding the truth whilst at the same time upholding
moral values, such a position would be rapidly contradicted when
comparing Putin's attitude towards the right of LGBT people to exist to
that of the West, considering of course that by "moral values", Putin
indeed upholds basic human rights.

Indeed, the torture and killings perpetrated by Putin's lower levels of
government and covered from up high, a fact of life that comes with
having been a member of the soviet union, must definitely reflect upon
Putin's willingness to publicize the truth, whether it would be in his
country's (capitalist) interest.
Furthermore, Putin's involvement against ISIS (or Daesh, for those who
prefer it) is but another part of Putin's manipulation for influence in
the middle east, tying in with involvement in Ukraine, games with NATO
and economic sanctions placed against Russia by the western world.

I strongly doubt that Putin's actions are not motivated by money and the
so-called "benefits" that come with setting up a slew of back room
agreements between countries. Instead, agreements promoting corruption
and the oppression of free speech are mainly set up with non-western
countries, reducing the ability for western media to catch a hold of
them and call Putin out, a result of the more secretive systems of
government that tend to exist in the East.

>>
>> It is so sad to me that most of the Western world today is, evidently, so
>> utterly compromised
>>

Although the problem of political corruption and the utter inability of
any political party to avoid completely sacrificing any hope of measly
integrity is primarily associated with the West, Eastern governments are
not exempt. It is not that such problems are isolated to a particular
section of the world, but instead cover the globe itself.

>>
>> I can only hope that future Russian presidents sustain such a level of
>> integrity and
>> commitment to national interests and his/her own people, as he does.
>>

> Me too, my friend. And it is very important to understand, that Putin is
> not committed ONLY to the Russian's national interests, *but to the
> interests of all the **(sane) people of the whole world.*

Oh yes, considering that the citizens of South Ossetia, Abkhazia and
Crimea are not Putin's own people.
Given Putin's partial invasion of Georgia and the Ukraine, it would be
ludicrous to believe that he is acting in the interests of the Georgian
and Ukrainian people. Russia's actions, although in his eyes quite
likely reflect an act of protection by Russia, are solely motivated by
economic or military reasoning, furthering Russia's troublesome
influence in an already unstable region.


It must be kept in mind that although Russia may have a tendency to cut
through the grime that obscures Western policy making, Russia (and
thereby Vladimir Putin) is not exempt from the corruption evident in
today's world by cause of modern capitalist and nationalistic sentiment.

I truly hope that the belief that Putin is an "unambiguous and
consistent friend to the truth" is but pure satire, intended to spark a
lively debate.

All the best,
Endless


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From ryacko at gmail.com  Sat Nov 28 02:41:48 2015
From: ryacko at gmail.com (Ryan Carboni)
Date: Sat, 28 Nov 2015 02:41:48 -0800
Subject: The Gentleman's Guide To Forum Spies (spooks, feds, etc.)
Message-ID: <CAO7N=i3nYcEwQDpRCjE5VG=fBZB7zTTzTG+3RzVmD5ufVySnLg@mail.gmail.com>

Yeah, I saw someone like that on television once. He gave an interview
about how he ordered someone's murder, can you believe that? He got to his
position by promising a bunch of lies. He exclaimed, "We got him," when he
first heard that the guy was executed by his henchmen. After he saw the
photo of the dead man, his only thoughts were, "He's dead."


...

...


http://www.cbsnews.com/news/obama-on-news-of-bin-laden-death-we-got-him/
http://www.cbsnews.com/news/obama-on-decision-to-bury-osama-bin-laden-at-sea/
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From zen at freedbms.net  Fri Nov 27 20:04:47 2015
From: zen at freedbms.net (Zenaan Harkness)
Date: Sat, 28 Nov 2015 04:04:47 +0000
Subject: France - sadly not a friend of principle or truth
In-Reply-To: <5658FA76.6030706@riseup.net>
References: <5658FA76.6030706@riseup.net>
Message-ID: <CAOsGNSRGHbU_xomKHBHNU7+oEoqg30CcbSnigP2nsBvSkmmdwA@mail.gmail.com>

On 11/28/15, Endless <3ndless at riseup.net> wrote:

>>> I can only hope that future Russian presidents sustain such a level of
>>> integrity and
>>> commitment to national interests and his/her own people, as he does.
>>>
>
>> Me too, my friend. And it is very important to understand, that Putin is
>> not committed ONLY to the Russian's national interests, *but to the
>> interests of all the **(sane) people of the whole world.*
>
> Oh yes, considering that the citizens of South Ossetia, Abkhazia and
> Crimea are not Putin's own people.

"the citizens of ... Crimea are not Putin's own people" - this
position is too broad, and too unqualified to be factual or useful.

> Given Putin's partial invasion of Georgia and the Ukraine, it would be

"invasion" of Ukarine? Again, you'll need to qualify that assertion in
order to sustain it. For example, Russia protecting the safety of the
people in the running of a referendum in Crimea, without a shot fired
and without a single person killed by the so-called 'invasion', in an
area which is 80%+ Russian speaking, and where the majority of people
turned out to vote (in stressful circumstances) and where the vast
majority of those voting, voted to secede from Ukraine and reunite
with Russia - facilitating the expression of the will of the people is
an example of something we in the West might consider to be
democratic. I -wish- for such respect for the will of the people here
in Australia for example!

Yes accept that this referendum was in the economic and/ or military
interest of Russia, and that we are unlikely to see a repeat of such
an event. Still, it's a very classy thing for Russia to have done,
politically... and very far from an "invasion".

The elite in my home country Australia for example, are afraid of the
people. Last year one of our federal politicians used the
implementation of direct democracy as a threat. We have been disarmed
after Port Arthur. We are treated as sheep by our media.


> ludicrous to believe that he is acting in the interests of the Georgian
> and Ukrainian people.

It is ludicrous to conflate all Ukrainian, or all Geogian, people as
though they are homogeneous. Surely we can do better than this in our
discussion.


> Russia's actions, although in his eyes quite
> likely reflect an act of protection by Russia, are solely motivated by
> economic or military reasoning,

So we could say he is acting in the interests of Russia and the
Russian people, including certain Russians living outside of Russia
where used to be part of the USSR?


> furthering Russia's troublesome
> influence in an already unstable region.

Please. This is a generalised Western media created viewpoint. There
is no nuance, no specificity, just the steretypical "Russia bad" meme
("Russia's troublesome influence").

We can do better than this. For a start, let's not paper of Azov
battalion and the many faceted Nazi revival in what seems to be your
beloved/ beleaguered "Ukraine". For some first hand experiences, check
out the "little hiroshima" series of blog posts/ first hand eyewitness
reports from Ukraine.

Is it possible that, for a semblence of an "objective" "understanding"
of the situation in Ukraine, we might need to broaden our diet beyond
the Western media?

We can do better. For the sake of sanity, we MUST do better, or we
shall be hypocrites to our own higher ideals.


> It must be kept in mind that although Russia may have a tendency to cut
> through the grime that obscures Western policy making, Russia (and
> thereby Vladimir Putin) is not exempt from the corruption evident in
> today's world by cause of modern capitalist and nationalistic sentiment.

If you said "not exempt from the potential for corruption in his
ranks", then I could agree with you.

But when you make an allegation against an individual, in this case
Russia's president Vladimir Putin, that he is "not exempt from
corruption", then for a semblence of intellectual honesty, at least
ONE fact of his alleged corruption must be presented. Put up or shut
up!

(Note, I'm not saying he's not (I am not him, I don't know his mind
and every action), and I am saying I seriously doubt he is personally
corrupt (his words match his actions match his words), but
importantly, I am saying it is not useful to bandy around baseless
allegations - that is reducing our selves to the level of the Western
media, and not in our interest, and not in the interests of the
peoples of the world.)


> I truly hope that the belief that Putin is an "unambiguous and
> consistent friend to the truth" is but pure satire, intended to spark a
> lively debate.

Lively debate can be a good thing :)
Zenaan




From zen at freedbms.net  Fri Nov 27 20:07:25 2015
From: zen at freedbms.net (Zenaan Harkness)
Date: Sat, 28 Nov 2015 04:07:25 +0000
Subject: France - sadly not a friend of principle or truth
In-Reply-To: <CAOsGNSRGHbU_xomKHBHNU7+oEoqg30CcbSnigP2nsBvSkmmdwA@mail.gmail.com>
References: <5658FA76.6030706@riseup.net>
 <CAOsGNSRGHbU_xomKHBHNU7+oEoqg30CcbSnigP2nsBvSkmmdwA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAOsGNST-a85b8TdYkFqPXkV-2j1zJxfN+f6hDVjTAOjj+TNmXA@mail.gmail.com>

On 11/28/15, Zenaan Harkness <zen at freedbms.net> wrote:
> Last year one of our federal politicians used the
> implementation of direct democracy as a threat.

A threat against another politician/ political party.
Sorry for confusion
Zenaan




From Rayzer at riseup.net  Sat Nov 28 10:22:10 2015
From: Rayzer at riseup.net (Rayzer)
Date: Sat, 28 Nov 2015 10:22:10 -0800
Subject: France - sadly not a friend of principle or truth
In-Reply-To: <5658FA76.6030706@riseup.net>
References: <5658FA76.6030706@riseup.net>
Message-ID: <5659F0D2.8080508@riseup.net>

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From Rayzer at riseup.net  Sat Nov 28 10:27:14 2015
From: Rayzer at riseup.net (Rayzer)
Date: Sat, 28 Nov 2015 10:27:14 -0800
Subject: [resend] France - sadly not a friend of principle or truth
In-Reply-To: <5658FA76.6030706@riseup.net>
References: <5658FA76.6030706@riseup.net>
Message-ID: <5659F202.1040209@riseup.net>



DAMN! Could have SWORN I sent this unencrypted! NOt sure Seamonkeymail
is playing nice with enigmail

Endless wrote:
> such a position would be rapidly contradicted when comparing Putin's
> attitude towards the right of LGBT people to exist

I want to shut this line of reasoning down once and for all (I know...
good luck!)

Vladimir Putin could really give a flying fuck who one fucks. No one in
Russia really does, and making table conversation out of one's sexual
preferences is a uniquely 'Merican phenome. Last week some guy at my
favorite coffee shop, who I barely know, started telling me, at SEVEN
AM, about the transgendered person he met last night and how sex with
the TG was a whole new... Get the picture? TMI! I couldn't shut the guy
up until I literally started screaming at him, bringing the verbal
altercation to the attention of a not-amused barista.

Russia is making laws about discussing LGBT, if indeed the law even does
that (can't tell by US reporting of the issue),  because THE ONLY PEOPLE
who would care to do so ... are people with AGENDAS. Ie. George Soros'
color-rev bffs. A while back I read an article about a LGBT nightclub in
St Petersburg that was thrashed by an alleged anti-gay 'wrecking crew'.
The bar owner said, and I quote, "They weren't from around here". Right.
There's your 'color revolutionary' CIA team at work doing some
perception management.

RR

Ps. The US military is DESPERATE for soldiers, and if you gay and
stupid, and have no morals or ethics, YOU can be "Liberated" and join
the murder machine. A good number of war stories I've read recently in
the US media pander to how gay people are being oppressed in X country
we're on the verge of war with, so put down the butt plug boy, and enlist!


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From coderman at gmail.com  Sat Nov 28 14:10:49 2015
From: coderman at gmail.com (coderman)
Date: Sat, 28 Nov 2015 14:10:49 -0800
Subject: cryptome-nov2015
Message-ID: <CAJVRA1Rvs7vWNaCmD2LryWEF_=5Kwt1H_j0-4uyRrjXD_it5nQ@mail.gmail.com>

cryptome-nov2015.tar.bz  76GByte Nov 28 05:58 sha256
22572573c0538e09bf554f475f3113fbbd33920e2bf6691f65450ea8e2333edb

[ seeding... plz wait... ]
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From shelley at misanthropia.org  Sat Nov 28 15:09:57 2015
From: shelley at misanthropia.org (Shelley)
Date: Sat, 28 Nov 2015 15:09:57 -0800
Subject: [resend] France - sadly not a friend of principle or truth
In-Reply-To: <CANFTA097xmzWmgdfD879tQrwkkQu9RAP3huscCijJ0EqC4Yv8A@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CANFTA097xmzWmgdfD879tQrwkkQu9RAP3huscCijJ0EqC4Yv8A@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <20151128230940.E94C4C016D5@frontend1.nyi.internal>

On November 28, 2015 2:42:04 PM Michael Best <themikebest at gmail.com> wrote: 
an awesome reply to Ray's amazingly offensive and ignorant post.

> Don't worry though, Ray - I'll put in a good word for you at the GCI (Gay
> Central Intelligence) and the BSA (Bisexual Security Agency). I don't have
> any real contacts at NALO (North Atlantic Lesbian Organization)
> intelligence though, so you're SOL (Sodomized Out of Luck) there.
>

I'm pretty sure I've dated a member of NALO so we have a contact there, and 
I am a proud member of QUEER (Queers Utterly Entertained but Enervated by 
Ray's Shitposts) and extend to you an invitation to sit at my table at the 
fabulous Holiday GAYla ;)

I couldn't do anything more than snark and rant at this utter fuckery, so I 
will just +1,000,000 your post.

> But remember, when in doubt, turn to Kevin Smith and Malcolm's immortal
> words on the sins of homosexuality and the pure love that is the Westboro
> Baptist Church of Hateology
> <https://www.reddit.com/r/funny/comments/u2l31/how_kevin_smith_protests_the_westboro_baptist/>
> .
>
> --Mike Best, Pervert Extraordinary
> <https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YMCQvLMfLHQ> and Plenipotentiary


Love Kevin Smith.  Heh.

-Shelley, proud non-hetero pervette


> On Sat, Nov 28, 2015 at 5:11 PM, <cypherpunks-request at cpunks.org> wrote:
>
> > Send cypherpunks mailing list submissions to
> >         cypherpunks at cpunks.org
> >
> > To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit
> >         https://cpunks.org/mailman/listinfo/cypherpunks
> > or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to
> >         cypherpunks-request at cpunks.org
> >
> > You can reach the person managing the list at
> >         cypherpunks-owner at cpunks.org
> >
> > When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific
> > than "Re: Contents of cypherpunks digest..."
> >
> >
> > Today's Topics:
> >
> >    1. Re: France - sadly not a friend of principle or truth (Rayzer)
> >    2. Re: [resend] France - sadly not a friend of principle or
> >       truth (Rayzer)
> >    3. Re: [resend] France - sadly not a friend of principle or
> >       truth (juan)
> >    4. cryptome-nov2015 (coderman)
> >
> >
> > ----------------------------------------------------------------------
> >
> > Message: 1
> > Date: Sat, 28 Nov 2015 10:22:10 -0800
> > From: Rayzer <Rayzer at riseup.net>
> > To: cypherpunks at cpunks.org
> > Subject: Re: France - sadly not a friend of principle or truth
> > Message-ID: <5659F0D2.8080508 at riseup.net>
> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"
> >
> > A non-text attachment was scrubbed...
> > Name: not available
> > Type: application/pgp-encrypted
> > Size: 11 bytes
> > Desc: PGP/MIME version identification
> > URL: <
> > 
> http://cpunks.org/pipermail/cypherpunks/attachments/20151128/dbbbfc7c/attachment-0001.pgp
> > >
> > -------------- next part --------------
> > A non-text attachment was scrubbed...
> > Name: encrypted.asc
> > Type: application/octet-stream
> > Size: 3391 bytes
> > Desc: OpenPGP encrypted message
> > URL: <
> > 
> http://cpunks.org/pipermail/cypherpunks/attachments/20151128/dbbbfc7c/attachment-0001.obj
> > >
> >
> > ------------------------------
> >
> > Message: 2
> > Date: Sat, 28 Nov 2015 10:27:14 -0800
> > From: Rayzer <Rayzer at riseup.net>
> > To: cypherpunks at cpunks.org
> > Subject: Re: [resend] France - sadly not a friend of principle or
> >         truth
> > Message-ID: <5659F202.1040209 at riseup.net>
> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"
> >
> >
> >
> > DAMN! Could have SWORN I sent this unencrypted! NOt sure Seamonkeymail
> > is playing nice with enigmail
> >
> > Endless wrote:
> > > such a position would be rapidly contradicted when comparing Putin's
> > > attitude towards the right of LGBT people to exist
> >
> > I want to shut this line of reasoning down once and for all (I know...
> > good luck!)
> >
> > Vladimir Putin could really give a flying fuck who one fucks. No one in
> > Russia really does, and making table conversation out of one's sexual
> > preferences is a uniquely 'Merican phenome. Last week some guy at my
> > favorite coffee shop, who I barely know, started telling me, at SEVEN
> > AM, about the transgendered person he met last night and how sex with
> > the TG was a whole new... Get the picture? TMI! I couldn't shut the guy
> > up until I literally started screaming at him, bringing the verbal
> > altercation to the attention of a not-amused barista.
> >
> > Russia is making laws about discussing LGBT, if indeed the law even does
> > that (can't tell by US reporting of the issue),  because THE ONLY PEOPLE
> > who would care to do so ... are people with AGENDAS. Ie. George Soros'
> > color-rev bffs. A while back I read an article about a LGBT nightclub in
> > St Petersburg that was thrashed by an alleged anti-gay 'wrecking crew'.
> > The bar owner said, and I quote, "They weren't from around here". Right.
> > There's your 'color revolutionary' CIA team at work doing some
> > perception management.
> >
> > RR
> >
> > Ps. The US military is DESPERATE for soldiers, and if you gay and
> > stupid, and have no morals or ethics, YOU can be "Liberated" and join
> > the murder machine. A good number of war stories I've read recently in
> > the US media pander to how gay people are being oppressed in X country
> > we're on the verge of war with, so put down the butt plug boy, and enlist!
> >
> >
> > -------------- next part --------------
> > A non-text attachment was scrubbed...
> > Name: signature.asc
> > Type: application/pgp-signature
> > Size: 836 bytes
> > Desc: OpenPGP digital signature
> > URL: <
> > 
> http://cpunks.org/pipermail/cypherpunks/attachments/20151128/ab79bbeb/attachment-0001.sig
> > >
> >
> > ------------------------------
> >
> > Message: 3
> > Date: Sat, 28 Nov 2015 16:55:32 -0300
> > From: juan <juan.g71 at gmail.com>
> > To: cypherpunks at cpunks.org
> > Subject: Re: [resend] France - sadly not a friend of principle or
> >         truth
> > Message-ID: <565a04f2.87fc8c0a.e0eb1.31d8 at mx.google.com>
> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
> >
> > On Sat, 28 Nov 2015 10:27:14 -0800
> > Rayzer <Rayzer at riseup.net> wrote:
> >
> > >
> > >
> > > DAMN! Could have SWORN I sent this unencrypted! NOt sure Seamonkeymail
> > > is playing nice with enigmail
> > >
> > > Endless wrote:
> > > > such a position would be rapidly contradicted when comparing Putin's
> > > > attitude towards the right of LGBT people to exist
> > >
> > > I want to shut this line of reasoning down once and for all (I know...
> > > good luck!)
> > >
> > > Vladimir Putin could really give a flying fuck who one fucks. No one
> > > in Russia really does, and making table conversation out of one's
> > > sexual preferences is a uniquely 'Merican phenome.
> >
> >
> >         I was about to mention that in the 'liberal', 'progressive',
> >         morally perfect, puritan, jew-christain 'west', homosexuals have
> >         been second class subjects for a looong time, AND, for instance,
> >         according to the masters of the universe, 'sodomy' was a
> >         'crime' until a few years ago
> >
> >         https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sodomy_laws_in_the_United_States
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > > Last week some guy
> > > at my favorite coffee shop, who I barely know, started telling me, at
> > > SEVEN AM, about the transgendered person he met last night and how
> > > sex with the TG was a whole new... Get the picture? TMI! I couldn't
> > > shut the guy up until I literally started screaming at him, bringing
> > > the verbal altercation to the attention of a not-amused barista.
> > >
> > > Russia is making laws about discussing LGBT, if indeed the law even
> > > does that (can't tell by US reporting of the issue),  because THE
> > > ONLY PEOPLE who would care to do so ... are people with AGENDAS. Ie.
> > > George Soros' color-rev bffs. A while back I read an article about a
> > > LGBT nightclub in St Petersburg that was thrashed by an alleged
> > > anti-gay 'wrecking crew'. The bar owner said, and I quote, "They
> > > weren't from around here". Right. There's your 'color revolutionary'
> > > CIA team at work doing some perception management.
> > >
> > > RR
> > >
> > > Ps. The US military is DESPERATE for soldiers, and if you gay and
> > > stupid, and have no morals or ethics, YOU can be "Liberated" and join
> > > the murder machine.
> >
> >
> >         Pretty Good Point.
> >
> >
> >
> > A good number of war stories I've read recently in
> > > the US media pander to how gay people are being oppressed in X country
> > > we're on the verge of war with, so put down the butt plug boy, and
> > > enlist!
> > >
> > >
> >
> >
> >
> > ------------------------------
> >
> > Message: 4
> > Date: Sat, 28 Nov 2015 14:10:49 -0800
> > From: coderman <coderman at gmail.com>
> > To: cpunks <cypherpunks at cpunks.org>
> > Subject: cryptome-nov2015
> > Message-ID:
> >         <CAJVRA1Rvs7vWNaCmD2LryWEF_=
> > 5Kwt1H_j0-4uyRrjXD_it5nQ at mail.gmail.com>
> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"
> >
> > cryptome-nov2015.tar.bz  76GByte Nov 28 05:58 sha256
> > 22572573c0538e09bf554f475f3113fbbd33920e2bf6691f65450ea8e2333edb
> >
> > [ seeding... plz wait... ]
> > -------------- next part --------------
> > A non-text attachment was scrubbed...
> > Name: cryptome-nov2015.png
> > Type: image/png
> > Size: 39453 bytes
> > Desc: not available
> > URL: <
> > 
> http://cpunks.org/pipermail/cypherpunks/attachments/20151128/ebb3d719/attachment.png
> > >
> >
> > ------------------------------
> >
> > Subject: Digest Footer
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > cypherpunks mailing list
> > cypherpunks at cpunks.org
> > https://cpunks.org/mailman/listinfo/cypherpunks
> >
> >
> > ------------------------------
> >
> > End of cypherpunks Digest, Vol 29, Issue 65
> > *******************************************
> >





From coderman at gmail.com  Sat Nov 28 16:33:34 2015
From: coderman at gmail.com (coderman)
Date: Sat, 28 Nov 2015 16:33:34 -0800
Subject: [cryptome] Re: cryptome-nov2015
In-Reply-To: <86D2DF77-349F-4882-8FEC-CBA3F7B44FB9@gmail.com>
References: <CAJVRA1Rvs7vWNaCmD2LryWEF_=5Kwt1H_j0-4uyRrjXD_it5nQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <E1a2oI2-0003Zg-Mc@elasmtp-curtail.atl.sa.earthlink.net>
 <E8B00388-EF9A-4B39-9E5C-3191C2EB7213@gmail.com>
 <86D2DF77-349F-4882-8FEC-CBA3F7B44FB9@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAJVRA1Suit=t6y4umk8vLjbdVC7JQOVAk5sEwEOUu=OAhtPuYA@mail.gmail.com>

"Online distribution is likely to be insecure, logged, tracked, spied,
and tampered. "
 - Cryptome.org




From coderman at gmail.com  Sat Nov 28 16:35:22 2015
From: coderman at gmail.com (coderman)
Date: Sat, 28 Nov 2015 16:35:22 -0800
Subject: [cryptome] Re: cryptome-nov2015
In-Reply-To: <CAJVRA1Suit=t6y4umk8vLjbdVC7JQOVAk5sEwEOUu=OAhtPuYA@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAJVRA1Rvs7vWNaCmD2LryWEF_=5Kwt1H_j0-4uyRrjXD_it5nQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <E1a2oI2-0003Zg-Mc@elasmtp-curtail.atl.sa.earthlink.net>
 <E8B00388-EF9A-4B39-9E5C-3191C2EB7213@gmail.com>
 <86D2DF77-349F-4882-8FEC-CBA3F7B44FB9@gmail.com>
 <CAJVRA1Suit=t6y4umk8vLjbdVC7JQOVAk5sEwEOUu=OAhtPuYA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAJVRA1R5499MYJJZx63dfHQVN7=QwcfzEyHarGkqD7PfuWLizg@mail.gmail.com>

On Sat, Nov 28, 2015 at 4:33 PM, coderman <coderman at gmail.com> wrote:
> "Online distribution is likely to be insecure, logged, tracked, spied,
> and tampered. "
>  - Cryptome.org

 "This is a trap, witting and unwitting.
  Do not use it or use at own risk.
  Source and this host is out to pwon and phuck you in complicity
   with global Internet authorities.
  ...
  Signed Batshit Cryptome and Host, 9 July 2014, 12:16ET."
   - cypherpunks/2014-July/005020.html, and true for nov2015, too.




From juan.g71 at gmail.com  Sat Nov 28 11:55:32 2015
From: juan.g71 at gmail.com (juan)
Date: Sat, 28 Nov 2015 16:55:32 -0300
Subject: [resend] France - sadly not a friend of principle or truth
In-Reply-To: <5659F202.1040209@riseup.net>
References: <5658FA76.6030706@riseup.net>
	<5659F202.1040209@riseup.net>
Message-ID: <565a04f2.87fc8c0a.e0eb1.31d8@mx.google.com>

On Sat, 28 Nov 2015 10:27:14 -0800
Rayzer <Rayzer at riseup.net> wrote:

> 
> 
> DAMN! Could have SWORN I sent this unencrypted! NOt sure Seamonkeymail
> is playing nice with enigmail
> 
> Endless wrote:
> > such a position would be rapidly contradicted when comparing Putin's
> > attitude towards the right of LGBT people to exist
> 
> I want to shut this line of reasoning down once and for all (I know...
> good luck!)
> 
> Vladimir Putin could really give a flying fuck who one fucks. No one
> in Russia really does, and making table conversation out of one's
> sexual preferences is a uniquely 'Merican phenome. 


	I was about to mention that in the 'liberal', 'progressive',
	morally perfect, puritan, jew-christain 'west', homosexuals have
	been second class subjects for a looong time, AND, for instance,
	according to the masters of the universe, 'sodomy' was a
	'crime' until a few years ago 

	https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sodomy_laws_in_the_United_States




> Last week some guy
> at my favorite coffee shop, who I barely know, started telling me, at
> SEVEN AM, about the transgendered person he met last night and how
> sex with the TG was a whole new... Get the picture? TMI! I couldn't
> shut the guy up until I literally started screaming at him, bringing
> the verbal altercation to the attention of a not-amused barista.
> 
> Russia is making laws about discussing LGBT, if indeed the law even
> does that (can't tell by US reporting of the issue),  because THE
> ONLY PEOPLE who would care to do so ... are people with AGENDAS. Ie.
> George Soros' color-rev bffs. A while back I read an article about a
> LGBT nightclub in St Petersburg that was thrashed by an alleged
> anti-gay 'wrecking crew'. The bar owner said, and I quote, "They
> weren't from around here". Right. There's your 'color revolutionary'
> CIA team at work doing some perception management.
> 
> RR
> 
> Ps. The US military is DESPERATE for soldiers, and if you gay and
> stupid, and have no morals or ethics, YOU can be "Liberated" and join
> the murder machine. 


	Pretty Good Point.



A good number of war stories I've read recently in
> the US media pander to how gay people are being oppressed in X country
> we're on the verge of war with, so put down the butt plug boy, and
> enlist!
> 
> 




From grarpamp at gmail.com  Sat Nov 28 14:31:18 2015
From: grarpamp at gmail.com (grarpamp)
Date: Sat, 28 Nov 2015 17:31:18 -0500
Subject: cryptome-nov2015
In-Reply-To: <CAJVRA1Rvs7vWNaCmD2LryWEF_=5Kwt1H_j0-4uyRrjXD_it5nQ@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAJVRA1Rvs7vWNaCmD2LryWEF_=5Kwt1H_j0-4uyRrjXD_it5nQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAD2Ti28CtODr57ZNzpzQuqYUcz60YG6nvOfgmo1_X1OsCvPiSw@mail.gmail.com>

On Sat, Nov 28, 2015 at 5:10 PM, coderman <coderman at gmail.com> wrote:
> [ seeding... plz wait... ]

time and space can be reduced with new physics hotness...
http://tukaani.org/xz/
http://cyan4973.github.io/lz4/




From themikebest at gmail.com  Sat Nov 28 14:41:59 2015
From: themikebest at gmail.com (Michael Best)
Date: Sat, 28 Nov 2015 17:41:59 -0500
Subject: [resend] France - sadly not a friend of principle or truth
Message-ID: <CANFTA097xmzWmgdfD879tQrwkkQu9RAP3huscCijJ0EqC4Yv8A@mail.gmail.com>

>
> making table conversation out of one's sexual preferences is a uniquely
> 'Merican phenome.


And Ray knows, because he's surveyed ALL THE COUNTRIES. No, not just all
the countries ALL THE CULTURES. No, not just all the cultures. ALL THE
TRIBES. No, no... silly me. ALL THE PEOPLE. That's it. Ray has spoken to
and speaks for all the people. That's why he can so safely make categorical
statements about human society on a global level.

Oh, wait. None of that's true. And the rest of Ray's email makes twice as
many good points as he did in that statement! ;-)

LOLing @ the ignorance and hate, and @ Ray's complaining of people only
talking about LGBT affairs when they have "AGENDAS", and "AGENDAS" are
apparently bad, but Ray doesn't have any "AGENDAS". Good job blowing the
cover on that CIA op, Ray. We spent a lot of time and money on that,
backstopping their IDs and producing plenty of pocket litter. We should've
known you'd use a translated statement of "they weren't regulars" to prove
it was a black ops CIA team. We thought we were so clever being
revolutionaries in Russia and using hammers to demolish stuff as part of
PROJECT SICKLE. Damn and double damn, and also other Shatnerian rants
<https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OcC1f1jqCPI>.

Don't worry though, Ray - I'll put in a good word for you at the GCI (Gay
Central Intelligence) and the BSA (Bisexual Security Agency). I don't have
any real contacts at NALO (North Atlantic Lesbian Organization)
intelligence though, so you're SOL (Sodomized Out of Luck) there.

But remember, when in doubt, turn to Kevin Smith and Malcolm's immortal
words on the sins of homosexuality and the pure love that is the Westboro
Baptist Church of Hateology
<https://www.reddit.com/r/funny/comments/u2l31/how_kevin_smith_protests_the_westboro_baptist/>
.

--Mike Best, Pervert Extraordinary
<https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YMCQvLMfLHQ> and Plenipotentiary

On Sat, Nov 28, 2015 at 5:11 PM, <cypherpunks-request at cpunks.org> wrote:

> Send cypherpunks mailing list submissions to
>         cypherpunks at cpunks.org
>
> To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit
>         https://cpunks.org/mailman/listinfo/cypherpunks
> or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to
>         cypherpunks-request at cpunks.org
>
> You can reach the person managing the list at
>         cypherpunks-owner at cpunks.org
>
> When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific
> than "Re: Contents of cypherpunks digest..."
>
>
> Today's Topics:
>
>    1. Re: France - sadly not a friend of principle or truth (Rayzer)
>    2. Re: [resend] France - sadly not a friend of principle or
>       truth (Rayzer)
>    3. Re: [resend] France - sadly not a friend of principle or
>       truth (juan)
>    4. cryptome-nov2015 (coderman)
>
>
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> Message: 1
> Date: Sat, 28 Nov 2015 10:22:10 -0800
> From: Rayzer <Rayzer at riseup.net>
> To: cypherpunks at cpunks.org
> Subject: Re: France - sadly not a friend of principle or truth
> Message-ID: <5659F0D2.8080508 at riseup.net>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"
>
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> http://cpunks.org/pipermail/cypherpunks/attachments/20151128/dbbbfc7c/attachment-0001.pgp
> >
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> >
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 2
> Date: Sat, 28 Nov 2015 10:27:14 -0800
> From: Rayzer <Rayzer at riseup.net>
> To: cypherpunks at cpunks.org
> Subject: Re: [resend] France - sadly not a friend of principle or
>         truth
> Message-ID: <5659F202.1040209 at riseup.net>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"
>
>
>
> DAMN! Could have SWORN I sent this unencrypted! NOt sure Seamonkeymail
> is playing nice with enigmail
>
> Endless wrote:
> > such a position would be rapidly contradicted when comparing Putin's
> > attitude towards the right of LGBT people to exist
>
> I want to shut this line of reasoning down once and for all (I know...
> good luck!)
>
> Vladimir Putin could really give a flying fuck who one fucks. No one in
> Russia really does, and making table conversation out of one's sexual
> preferences is a uniquely 'Merican phenome. Last week some guy at my
> favorite coffee shop, who I barely know, started telling me, at SEVEN
> AM, about the transgendered person he met last night and how sex with
> the TG was a whole new... Get the picture? TMI! I couldn't shut the guy
> up until I literally started screaming at him, bringing the verbal
> altercation to the attention of a not-amused barista.
>
> Russia is making laws about discussing LGBT, if indeed the law even does
> that (can't tell by US reporting of the issue),  because THE ONLY PEOPLE
> who would care to do so ... are people with AGENDAS. Ie. George Soros'
> color-rev bffs. A while back I read an article about a LGBT nightclub in
> St Petersburg that was thrashed by an alleged anti-gay 'wrecking crew'.
> The bar owner said, and I quote, "They weren't from around here". Right.
> There's your 'color revolutionary' CIA team at work doing some
> perception management.
>
> RR
>
> Ps. The US military is DESPERATE for soldiers, and if you gay and
> stupid, and have no morals or ethics, YOU can be "Liberated" and join
> the murder machine. A good number of war stories I've read recently in
> the US media pander to how gay people are being oppressed in X country
> we're on the verge of war with, so put down the butt plug boy, and enlist!
>
>
> -------------- next part --------------
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> >
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 3
> Date: Sat, 28 Nov 2015 16:55:32 -0300
> From: juan <juan.g71 at gmail.com>
> To: cypherpunks at cpunks.org
> Subject: Re: [resend] France - sadly not a friend of principle or
>         truth
> Message-ID: <565a04f2.87fc8c0a.e0eb1.31d8 at mx.google.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
>
> On Sat, 28 Nov 2015 10:27:14 -0800
> Rayzer <Rayzer at riseup.net> wrote:
>
> >
> >
> > DAMN! Could have SWORN I sent this unencrypted! NOt sure Seamonkeymail
> > is playing nice with enigmail
> >
> > Endless wrote:
> > > such a position would be rapidly contradicted when comparing Putin's
> > > attitude towards the right of LGBT people to exist
> >
> > I want to shut this line of reasoning down once and for all (I know...
> > good luck!)
> >
> > Vladimir Putin could really give a flying fuck who one fucks. No one
> > in Russia really does, and making table conversation out of one's
> > sexual preferences is a uniquely 'Merican phenome.
>
>
>         I was about to mention that in the 'liberal', 'progressive',
>         morally perfect, puritan, jew-christain 'west', homosexuals have
>         been second class subjects for a looong time, AND, for instance,
>         according to the masters of the universe, 'sodomy' was a
>         'crime' until a few years ago
>
>         https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sodomy_laws_in_the_United_States
>
>
>
>
> > Last week some guy
> > at my favorite coffee shop, who I barely know, started telling me, at
> > SEVEN AM, about the transgendered person he met last night and how
> > sex with the TG was a whole new... Get the picture? TMI! I couldn't
> > shut the guy up until I literally started screaming at him, bringing
> > the verbal altercation to the attention of a not-amused barista.
> >
> > Russia is making laws about discussing LGBT, if indeed the law even
> > does that (can't tell by US reporting of the issue),  because THE
> > ONLY PEOPLE who would care to do so ... are people with AGENDAS. Ie.
> > George Soros' color-rev bffs. A while back I read an article about a
> > LGBT nightclub in St Petersburg that was thrashed by an alleged
> > anti-gay 'wrecking crew'. The bar owner said, and I quote, "They
> > weren't from around here". Right. There's your 'color revolutionary'
> > CIA team at work doing some perception management.
> >
> > RR
> >
> > Ps. The US military is DESPERATE for soldiers, and if you gay and
> > stupid, and have no morals or ethics, YOU can be "Liberated" and join
> > the murder machine.
>
>
>         Pretty Good Point.
>
>
>
> A good number of war stories I've read recently in
> > the US media pander to how gay people are being oppressed in X country
> > we're on the verge of war with, so put down the butt plug boy, and
> > enlist!
> >
> >
>
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 4
> Date: Sat, 28 Nov 2015 14:10:49 -0800
> From: coderman <coderman at gmail.com>
> To: cpunks <cypherpunks at cpunks.org>
> Subject: cryptome-nov2015
> Message-ID:
>         <CAJVRA1Rvs7vWNaCmD2LryWEF_=
> 5Kwt1H_j0-4uyRrjXD_it5nQ at mail.gmail.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"
>
> cryptome-nov2015.tar.bz  76GByte Nov 28 05:58 sha256
> 22572573c0538e09bf554f475f3113fbbd33920e2bf6691f65450ea8e2333edb
>
> [ seeding... plz wait... ]
> -------------- next part --------------
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> >
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Subject: Digest Footer
>
> _______________________________________________
> cypherpunks mailing list
> cypherpunks at cpunks.org
> https://cpunks.org/mailman/listinfo/cypherpunks
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> End of cypherpunks Digest, Vol 29, Issue 65
> *******************************************
>
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From jya at pipeline.com  Sat Nov 28 14:49:03 2015
From: jya at pipeline.com (John Young)
Date: Sat, 28 Nov 2015 17:49:03 -0500
Subject: cryptome-nov2015
In-Reply-To: <CAJVRA1Rvs7vWNaCmD2LryWEF_=5Kwt1H_j0-4uyRrjXD_it5nQ@mail.g
 mail.com>
References: <CAJVRA1Rvs7vWNaCmD2LryWEF_=5Kwt1H_j0-4uyRrjXD_it5nQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <E1a2oI2-0003Zg-Mc@elasmtp-curtail.atl.sa.earthlink.net>

Cryptome disavows mirrors of its archive, all of them, due to ease
and evidence of tampering with files, hashes, signatures and insertion
of implants by the host, platform, route, service or all.

The archives should prominently display this disavowal and name the
archive "Cryptome-Disavows-This-Corrupt-Archive."



At 05:10 PM 11/28/2015, you wrote:
>cryptome-nov2015.tar.bz  76GByte Nov 28 05:58 sha256
>22572573c0538e09bf554f475f3113fbbd33920e2bf6691f65450ea8e2333edb
>
>[ seeding... plz wait... ]
>
>Content-Type: image/png; name="cryptome-nov2015.png"
>Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="cryptome-nov2015.png"
>X-Attachment-Id: f_ihjnir3o0





From themikebest at gmail.com  Sat Nov 28 14:57:59 2015
From: themikebest at gmail.com (Michael Best)
Date: Sat, 28 Nov 2015 17:57:59 -0500
Subject: [cryptome] Re: cryptome-nov2015
In-Reply-To: <E1a2oI2-0003Zg-Mc@elasmtp-curtail.atl.sa.earthlink.net>
References: <CAJVRA1Rvs7vWNaCmD2LryWEF_=5Kwt1H_j0-4uyRrjXD_it5nQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <E1a2oI2-0003Zg-Mc@elasmtp-curtail.atl.sa.earthlink.net>
Message-ID: <E8B00388-EF9A-4B39-9E5C-3191C2EB7213@gmail.com>

> The archives should prominently display this disavowal and name the
> archive "Cryptome-Disavows-This-Corrupt-Archive."

Is that how you'll label and name the files when you send them out? 

Seriously, John, this is getting a little ridiculous. Is it really that easy to fake a hash and sig while making thousands of files appear to be what it's supposed to be and still add up and hash correctly? 

Sent from my iPhone

> On Nov 28, 2015, at 5:49 PM, John Young <jya at pipeline.com> wrote:
> 
> Cryptome disavows mirrors of its archive, all of them, due to ease
> and evidence of tampering with files, hashes, signatures and insertion
> of implants by the host, platform, route, service or all.
> 
> The archives should prominently display this disavowal and name the
> archive "Cryptome-Disavows-This-Corrupt-Archive."
> 
> 
> 
> At 05:10 PM 11/28/2015, you wrote:
>> cryptome-nov2015.tar.bz  76GByte Nov 28 05:58 sha256
>> 22572573c0538e09bf554f475f3113fbbd33920e2bf6691f65450ea8e2333edb
>> 
>> [ seeding... plz wait... ]
>> 
>> Content-Type: image/png; name="cryptome-nov2015.png"
>> Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="cryptome-nov2015.png"
>> X-Attachment-Id: f_ihjnir3o0
> 
> 
> 
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From themikebest at gmail.com  Sat Nov 28 15:02:47 2015
From: themikebest at gmail.com (Michael Best)
Date: Sat, 28 Nov 2015 18:02:47 -0500
Subject: [cryptome] Re: cryptome-nov2015
In-Reply-To: <E8B00388-EF9A-4B39-9E5C-3191C2EB7213@gmail.com>
References: <CAJVRA1Rvs7vWNaCmD2LryWEF_=5Kwt1H_j0-4uyRrjXD_it5nQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <E1a2oI2-0003Zg-Mc@elasmtp-curtail.atl.sa.earthlink.net>
 <E8B00388-EF9A-4B39-9E5C-3191C2EB7213@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <86D2DF77-349F-4882-8FEC-CBA3F7B44FB9@gmail.com>

And as a follow-up, will you send WikiLeaks an email asking them to do the same with the version mirrored at Cryptome.wikileaks.org/frontpage ? Course not - because the whole thing is ridiculous. Paranoia is poison when it's out of proportion, and the computing power needed to fake the files, hashes and cryptographic signatures is WAY out of proportion to any gain from it, which is hypothetical at best. 

Sent from my iPhone

> On Nov 28, 2015, at 5:57 PM, Michael Best <themikebest at gmail.com> wrote:
> 
>> The archives should prominently display this disavowal and name the
>> archive "Cryptome-Disavows-This-Corrupt-Archive."
> 
> Is that how you'll label and name the files when you send them out? 
> 
> Seriously, John, this is getting a little ridiculous. Is it really that easy to fake a hash and sig while making thousands of files appear to be what it's supposed to be and still add up and hash correctly? 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone
> 
>> On Nov 28, 2015, at 5:49 PM, John Young <jya at pipeline.com> wrote:
>> 
>> Cryptome disavows mirrors of its archive, all of them, due to ease
>> and evidence of tampering with files, hashes, signatures and insertion
>> of implants by the host, platform, route, service or all.
>> 
>> The archives should prominently display this disavowal and name the
>> archive "Cryptome-Disavows-This-Corrupt-Archive."
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> At 05:10 PM 11/28/2015, you wrote:
>>> cryptome-nov2015.tar.bz  76GByte Nov 28 05:58 sha256
>>> 22572573c0538e09bf554f475f3113fbbd33920e2bf6691f65450ea8e2333edb
>>> 
>>> [ seeding... plz wait... ]
>>> 
>>> Content-Type: image/png; name="cryptome-nov2015.png"
>>> Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="cryptome-nov2015.png"
>>> X-Attachment-Id: f_ihjnir3o0
>> 
>> 
>> 
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From themikebest at gmail.com  Sat Nov 28 17:04:56 2015
From: themikebest at gmail.com (Michael Best)
Date: Sat, 28 Nov 2015 20:04:56 -0500
Subject: [cryptome] Re: cryptome-nov2015
In-Reply-To: <CAJVRA1R5499MYJJZx63dfHQVN7=QwcfzEyHarGkqD7PfuWLizg@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAJVRA1Rvs7vWNaCmD2LryWEF_=5Kwt1H_j0-4uyRrjXD_it5nQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <E1a2oI2-0003Zg-Mc@elasmtp-curtail.atl.sa.earthlink.net>
 <E8B00388-EF9A-4B39-9E5C-3191C2EB7213@gmail.com>
 <86D2DF77-349F-4882-8FEC-CBA3F7B44FB9@gmail.com>
 <CAJVRA1Suit=t6y4umk8vLjbdVC7JQOVAk5sEwEOUu=OAhtPuYA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAJVRA1R5499MYJJZx63dfHQVN7=QwcfzEyHarGkqD7PfuWLizg@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <10C80A75-F407-48F6-8DB5-B36A595EFAD5@gmail.com>

An ode to traps: https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=v36B3KRKiME

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=xK9xMMxJpdw

;)

Sent from my iPhone

> On Nov 28, 2015, at 7:35 PM, coderman <coderman at gmail.com> wrote:
> 
>> On Sat, Nov 28, 2015 at 4:33 PM, coderman <coderman at gmail.com> wrote:
>> "Online distribution is likely to be insecure, logged, tracked, spied,
>> and tampered. "
>> - Cryptome.org
> 
> "This is a trap, witting and unwitting.
>  Do not use it or use at own risk.
>  Source and this host is out to pwon and phuck you in complicity
>   with global Internet authorities.
>  ...
>  Signed Batshit Cryptome and Host, 9 July 2014, 12:16ET."
>   - cypherpunks/2014-July/005020.html, and true for nov2015, too.
> 
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From coderman at gmail.com  Sat Nov 28 20:52:41 2015
From: coderman at gmail.com (coderman)
Date: Sat, 28 Nov 2015 20:52:41 -0800
Subject: [cryptome] Re: cryptome-nov2015
In-Reply-To: <10C80A75-F407-48F6-8DB5-B36A595EFAD5@gmail.com>
References: <CAJVRA1Rvs7vWNaCmD2LryWEF_=5Kwt1H_j0-4uyRrjXD_it5nQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <E1a2oI2-0003Zg-Mc@elasmtp-curtail.atl.sa.earthlink.net>
 <E8B00388-EF9A-4B39-9E5C-3191C2EB7213@gmail.com>
 <86D2DF77-349F-4882-8FEC-CBA3F7B44FB9@gmail.com>
 <CAJVRA1Suit=t6y4umk8vLjbdVC7JQOVAk5sEwEOUu=OAhtPuYA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAJVRA1R5499MYJJZx63dfHQVN7=QwcfzEyHarGkqD7PfuWLizg@mail.gmail.com>
 <10C80A75-F407-48F6-8DB5-B36A595EFAD5@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAJVRA1Rx6ymvMoEuJCxCJ1Q2W8mULh7GCnVB1T3B6asGpPgvJA@mail.gmail.com>

https://peertech.org/files/cryptome-nov2015.txt




From zen at freedbms.net  Sat Nov 28 15:46:16 2015
From: zen at freedbms.net (Zenaan Harkness)
Date: Sat, 28 Nov 2015 23:46:16 +0000
Subject: US drug policy -> maintains the class divide
Message-ID: <CAOsGNSTmdOV8g+3sCtF0NewLu2F33=SSgjgVp2SwCkPvwxWEbA@mail.gmail.com>

>From a comment on slashdot - I'm not American, but this sounds quite
plausible to me:

http://news.slashdot.org/story/15/11/27/1343243/lsd-microdosing-gaining-popularity-for-silicon-valley-professionals
"
If you're a $100k/yr engineer (Score:4, Insightful)
by rsilvergun (571051) on Friday November 27, 2015 @10:52AM (#51013395)
such things don't apply. In America we have a multi-tiered justice
system. It's pretty well documented. Wealthy and educated people get
treatment programs, while poor (and let's face it, black) people get
jail. It's because what we're really using our drug policy for is to
keep the poors in check. Think of it this way. If your poor chances
are you or one of your friends is using drugs to cope with poverty.
Now, our drug laws, in particular our asset forfeiture laws are
basically guilt by association. Combine that with juries that are
inherently conservative (since you generally have to be well off to be
able to afford to server on a jury for any length of time).

So when poor people show up in wealthy neighborhoods they not only
stick out like a swore thumb, but odds are good the cops can bust them
for the drugs at least one of them is carrying. This keeps poor people
out of wealthy school districts and parks, and lets the wealthy enjoy
their (much, much better) public services.

Basically, our drug policy is central to maintaining our class divide...
"




From rysiek at hackerspace.pl  Sat Nov 28 15:00:59 2015
From: rysiek at hackerspace.pl (rysiek)
Date: Sun, 29 Nov 2015 00:00:59 +0100
Subject: [resend] France - sadly not a friend of principle or truth
In-Reply-To: <5659F202.1040209@riseup.net>
References: <5658FA76.6030706@riseup.net> <5659F202.1040209@riseup.net>
Message-ID: <3004755.ksbPFz1Kdc@lapuntu>

Dnia sobota, 28 listopada 2015 10:27:14 Rayzer pisze:
> Russia is making laws about discussing LGBT, if indeed the law even does
> that (can't tell by US reporting of the issue),  because THE ONLY PEOPLE
> who would care to do so ... are people with AGENDAS.

I'm just going to assume from now on that the only people who defend Putin's 
actions ... are people with AGENDAS.

Might as well, there's no chance of having an intelligent discussion about any 
of this afterall.

-- 
Pozdrawiam,
Michał "rysiek" Woźniak

Zmieniam klucz GPG :: http://rys.io/pl/147
GPG Key Transition :: http://rys.io/en/147
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From juan.g71 at gmail.com  Sat Nov 28 21:26:33 2015
From: juan.g71 at gmail.com (juan)
Date: Sun, 29 Nov 2015 02:26:33 -0300
Subject: US drug policy -> maintains the class divide
In-Reply-To: <CAOsGNSTmdOV8g+3sCtF0NewLu2F33=SSgjgVp2SwCkPvwxWEbA@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAOsGNSTmdOV8g+3sCtF0NewLu2F33=SSgjgVp2SwCkPvwxWEbA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <565a8ace.834b370a.f6cb1.0c8d@mx.google.com>

On Sat, 28 Nov 2015 23:46:16 +0000
Zenaan Harkness <zen at freedbms.net> wrote:

> From a comment on slashdot - I'm not American, but this sounds quite
> plausible to me:
> 
> http://news.slashdot.org/story/15/11/27/1343243/lsd-microdosing-gaining-popularity-for-silicon-valley-professionals
> "
> If you're a $100k/yr engineer (Score:4, Insightful)
> by rsilvergun (571051) on Friday November 27, 2015 @10:52AM
> (#51013395) such things don't apply. In America we have a
> multi-tiered justice system. It's pretty well documented. Wealthy and
> educated people get treatment programs, while poor (and let's face
> it, black) people get jail. It's because what we're really using our
> drug policy for is to keep the poors in check.


	Feeding the medical and pharmaceutical mafia is another key
	objective - and purpose -  of the government. 


	In a free market, a kilo of a 'natural'(comes from a plant,
	it's quite green) stimulant like cocaine would cost, say, $100,
	whereas in the current fascist system, $100 buys you a few
	pills of the latest patented garbage sold by pfizer and pushed
	by the narc-cunts known as 'medical doctors'.






 Think of it this way.
> If your poor chances are you or one of your friends is using drugs to
> cope with poverty. Now, our drug laws, in particular our asset
> forfeiture laws are basically guilt by association. Combine that with
> juries that are inherently conservative (since you generally have to
> be well off to be able to afford to server on a jury for any length
> of time).
> 
> So when poor people show up in wealthy neighborhoods they not only
> stick out like a swore thumb, but odds are good the cops can bust them
> for the drugs at least one of them is carrying. This keeps poor people
> out of wealthy school districts and parks, and lets the wealthy enjoy
> their (much, much better) public services.
> 
> Basically, our drug policy is central to maintaining our class
> divide... "




From zen at freedbms.net  Sun Nov 29 05:53:57 2015
From: zen at freedbms.net (Zenaan Harkness)
Date: Sun, 29 Nov 2015 13:53:57 +0000
Subject: Philosohpical - Reading between the lines: the Great War of
 Continents, information wars, and multipolarity
Message-ID: <CAOsGNSReSwnJhVLtHrf8RnR5jnp0O8cRByasNfyc+NWLXwg-Gg@mail.gmail.com>

Speaking of agendas, of course we each tend to see the world, the
struggles of the day, through particular lenses, preferences, agendas
etc. This philosophical piece has an image which could make a great
desktop background - but more importantly may help remind some (such
as I) to take note of the breadth of viewpoints/ agendas from which we
may couch any events of the day.

Perhaps you might enjoy it too.

http://fortruss.blogspot.ru/2015/11/reading-between-lines-great-war-of.html

Regards,
Zenaan




From c4p0 at cyberguerrilla.org  Sun Nov 29 09:28:08 2015
From: c4p0 at cyberguerrilla.org (c4p0)
Date: Sun, 29 Nov 2015 14:28:08 -0300
Subject: Mandatory Access Control ?
In-Reply-To: <20151106124325.258dfde9@emailcontrol.org>
References: <CAOsGNSTjOUT-_qEV3EEYF-+0y3khwcc4xFyzBzGh17=Q7oyxPw@mail.gmail.com>
 <56380CC2.2070506@openmailbox.org> <20151103035136.50a9ff16@emailcontrol.org>
 <20151103164028.GA2617@sivokote.iziade.m$>
 <20151106124325.258dfde9@emailcontrol.org>
Message-ID: <565B35A8.1090007@cyberguerrilla.org>

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1

I read the fucking manuals but don't have clear what is the better
option of "Mandatory Access Control" for debian jessie.
(AppArmor, SElinux, tomoyo, etc ..)

someone can give me your opinion about it?
thanks in advance
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: GnuPG v1

iQEcBAEBAgAGBQJWWzWoAAoJEFP03bWgkcs7U48H/2wxMto569rbZk80ktLf2VLe
hfQAJ2NCTIrkFf3cgcyTD2meq3aVbgU4/ZuHL+qqqME1oOmi9pe1q0NrAkjJSr81
Jkz8S0gvpnVrt2MeuHG882E/DVi2XT7Rl3hHyD674eHgjz409R74AatQHvtIuKf3
Hu8i92p07IEy5FiNCdLLbvp5cGyWVe3fryQWk90QfY0TvoXMY0ZyC2dcAeaYT8RY
9ej53P0zEfY12ztmDh8ibnxg2x2E8HBMzC7Q+s/p6PykBvdRXNlqrbnbSblCEHZU
QuKEbeQ29FH5C/jEatxOPxh7l4mQn6+mOJ2yzv5piTPGijRVXd8Rda1xWDhLcvo=
=nng+
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----




From dan at geer.org  Sun Nov 29 20:30:20 2015
From: dan at geer.org (dan at geer.org)
Date: Sun, 29 Nov 2015 23:30:20 -0500
Subject: OT: Is the US worthy of International Respect anymore?
In-Reply-To: Your message of "Mon, 16 Nov 2015 03:00:26 -0500."
 <CAD2Ti29A=b_e-ZgrJ_iaLLMw-sQ15aqu5ZV_O8BN_Jw2DQDNMQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <20151130043020.6CDF6A06E5D@palinka.tinho.net>

grarpamp writes:
 | Just curious...
 | And completely OT to whatever degree it matters...
 | Do not feel obligated to reply, even within the bound
 | of crypto[politics].


The US people are -- most especially the "leave me alone and I will
take care of my own kind" fraction.

The US government is not -- most especially its organs who "believe"
that a better populace can be engineered with handouts and regulations
(carrots & sticks).

The cognitive dissonance between the above two sentences will be
resolved, but how that resolution proceeds is sheer guesswork.  My
own fear is found in Dostoyevsky's Grand Inquisitor, "In the end,
they will lay their freedom at our feet and say 'Make us your slaves,
but feed us'" -- my fear being that a Dostoyevskian resolution
grows more likely so long as the interdependence of all on digital
systems continues to grow.

--dan




From juan.g71 at gmail.com  Sun Nov 29 20:19:16 2015
From: juan.g71 at gmail.com (juan)
Date: Mon, 30 Nov 2015 01:19:16 -0300
Subject: Mandatory Access Control ?
In-Reply-To: <565B35A8.1090007@cyberguerrilla.org>
References: <CAOsGNSTjOUT-_qEV3EEYF-+0y3khwcc4xFyzBzGh17=Q7oyxPw@mail.gmail.com>
 <56380CC2.2070506@openmailbox.org>
 <20151103035136.50a9ff16@emailcontrol.org>
 <20151103164028.GA2617@sivokote.iziade.m$>
 <20151106124325.258dfde9@emailcontrol.org>
 <565B35A8.1090007@cyberguerrilla.org>
Message-ID: <565bcc84.d0558c0a.28000.6c6a@mx.google.com>

On Sun, 29 Nov 2015 14:28:08 -0300
c4p0 <c4p0 at cyberguerrilla.org> wrote:

> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
> Hash: SHA1
> 
> I read the fucking manuals but don't have clear what is the better
> option of "Mandatory Access Control" for debian jessie.
> (AppArmor, SElinux, tomoyo, etc ..)


	Good question. You should use selinux? It was written by the
	NSA. They are very nice people. 



> 
> someone can give me your opinion about it?
> thanks in advance
> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
> Version: GnuPG v1
> 




From zen at freedbms.net  Sun Nov 29 17:51:50 2015
From: zen at freedbms.net (Zenaan Harkness)
Date: Mon, 30 Nov 2015 01:51:50 +0000
Subject: West declares war on international resistance
Message-ID: <CAOsGNSSLfE+SZdUZkWzsGfUDJMLQ6AvnL0BU6VBJAXXoG-fPJw@mail.gmail.com>

Quixote redux.

http://www.veteranstoday.com/2015/11/29/uri-avnery-the-reign-of-absurdiocy/

:)




From zen at freedbms.net  Sun Nov 29 21:45:21 2015
From: zen at freedbms.net (Zenaan Harkness)
Date: Mon, 30 Nov 2015 05:45:21 +0000
Subject: Brief history lesson on Islam - Fwd: ALA Senate candidate Bernard
 Gaynor struts his stuff in a powerful speech.
Message-ID: <CAOsGNSQqaWFWVYDCy+NDsNENmF2WodxFC0_GUPNtgprzVG4tzQ@mail.gmail.com>

>From an aspiring Australian senate candidate who I and many others
admire, Bernard Gaynor. Hopefully he is observant enough to not get
imprisoned on trumped up charges like Pauline Hanson did some years
back due to a united effort (it turned out) between our two major
("left" and "right") political parties.

Good luck Bernard,
Zenaan


---------- Forwarded message ----------
Date: Mon, 30 Nov 2015 14:32:09 +1100
Subject: ALA Senate candidate Bernard Gaynor struts his stuff in a
powerful speech.

FW: ALA SENATE CANDIDATE STRUTS HIS STUFFThis is one of the best
political speeches I have read from a man who is a true Australian
patriot and not a typical brain-dead Australian politician. Bernard's
speech is full of facts and truth about Islam and politics in
Australia. He was given a rough deal by the ADF and NSW
Anti-Discrimination Board and successfully defended himself against
both of them.

My only criticism is that Bernard didn't go far enough in calling out
the Liberal and Labor parties as the Islamic lap dogs, gutless
snivelling cowards and traitors they truly are.

Get ready for the major parties and the slimy Greens to launch attacks
against Bernard Gaynor, the ALA and Pauline Hanson. I hope they have
have the determination, resilience and endurance for a long political
battle to win seats in Parliament. I don't think the Liberal party
will be able to have the leader of ALA imprisoned on trumped up
charges like they did with Pauline. With today's social media it will
be far more difficult to substantiate false claims against Gaynor and
the ALA.

Jim


----- Original Message -----
From: Admin
To: POLITICIANS ; C.Q. FREE STATE GROUP ; SENATORS ; CHURCH MILITANTS
Sent: Monday, November 30, 2015 7:07 AM
Subject: FW: ALA SENATE CANDIDATE STRUTS HIS STUFF


ALA SENATE CANDIDATE STRUTS HIS STUFF

THE PICKERING POST
Larry Pickering
Fri 27 Nov 2015

http://pickeringpost.com/story/-ala-senate-candidate-struts-his-stuff/5620




Outspoken ex-military Senate candidate, Bernard Gaynor, faced a large
crowd on Queensland’s Gold Coast this week to launch his campaign for
the newly-formed Australian Liberty Alliance party which is looming as
a force in the upcoming Federal election.

Mr Gaynor spoke mainly about public concern over Islamic immigration.
There is certainly a world-wide movement gaining political momentum on
this issue and the current Labor and liberal parties are certain to
join in moving against any viable threat to their comfortable duopoly,
as they have with ruthless efficiency in the past.

This is the text of what Mr Gaynor had to say:

Ladies and gentleman, Australia is facing a crisis.

It is a crisis that threatens all of us right now. And it is a crisis
that threatens our children most of all because they will have to live
with the decisions we make today.

This crisis comes from Islamic ideology.

For far too long, our government has pretended that Islamic ideology
is peaceful. Our political leaders have pretended that this ideology
can be integrated safely into our society.

But they have been wrong.

Any student of history knows that this belief is wrong. Islam was
founded by a man who brilliantly merged politics with religion and
created an empire where the church was the state. In the process, an
army was raised, wars were fought, and populations were enslaved,
forcibly converted or executed.

This man was Mohammad and the Islamic religion teaches that he was
perfect and that his example is to be followed. There should be no
surprises, therefore, that the Islamic religion leads to violence. It
idolises a warlord.

It should also come as no surprise that this religion advocates
immigration into non-Islamic lands as a means of conquering them. The
Islamic calendar itself is based on the first successful conquest
undertaken by Islamic immigration: the conquest of Medina.

For much of the last three centuries, all of this has been forgotten.

Then September 11 happened.

Unfortunately, the Western world believed that September 11 was
something new. But it was not. It was something old.

In fact, in the first battle of September 11 was in 1683. This was the
first September 11.

On that first September 11, European forces defeated an invading
Islamic army that had been besieging Vienna for two months. Those of
you who know Europe will know that the city of Vienna is right in the
middle of the continent. It is not an understatement to say that this
victory saved Europe.

After this first battle of September 11, the Islamic threat to Europe
receded due to the efforts of those who protected Western
civilisation, until it was forgotten. But before this first battle of
September 11, Europe was constantly threatened by Islam, just as it is
today.

In fact, Vienna was under constant attack for 150 years prior to that
first battle of September 11 in 1683.

The Battle of Lepanto occurred in 1571. It saved Europe from an
Islamic fleet sent to invade Italy.

In 1453, the city of Constantinople fell. It has been the capital of
the Byzantine Empire since Roman days. It finally succumbed after a
700 year fight against Islamic aggression. Now this empire and its
culture is gone.

The Spanish also battled Islam for about 700 years. That’s how long it
took to remove Islam after it arrived with the Caliph’s armies shortly
after Mohammad’s death. The year that Columbus discovered America was
also the year that Islam was eventually removed from Spain. Now it is
walking in again via Europe’s open borders.

Mohammad died in the year 632. Within five years, Jerusalem had been
captured and in the next century Islam had conquered the Persians, the
Egyptians, all of North Africa, Spain and had even reached into the
heart of France.

In 732, at a place called Tours in Northern France, this first Islamic
invasion was finally stopped but as we can see through history, it was
not the last.

We face another invasion today.

September 11 shows that we are once again under attack.

So does Bali. And Madrid. And London.

So do the terrorist atrocities on our home soil, in Melbourne, in
Sydney’s Martin Place and at Parramatta.

And two attacks in Paris this year show that appeasing the enemy only
makes things worse.

Yet our politicians, our government and our security organisations
remain obstinately and wilfully determined to ignore the reality of
this crisis and the threat that we face.

Let me give you three examples.

The first example is that of our Prime Minister.

Our Prime Minister, Malcolm Turnbull, has been talking a lot about
Islam lately. And every time he does, he shows how ill-equipped and
unprepared he is for the task at hand of protecting Australia and
Australians.

In early October, Prime Minister Turnbull announced that he was going
to ‘reset’ relations with the Islamic community. By the end of the
day, a police worker lay dead outside Parramatta police station as a
result of an attack launched from the Parramatta mosque.

Undeterred, Prime Minister Malcolm Turnbull announced a National Day
of Unity in late October, where Australians were invited to welcome
the Islamic community. The very next day, Hizb ut Tahrir held a
conference attended by nearly 1000 people and announced that they
rejected Australia, and rejected our values, our laws, our flag and
our anthem.

Just so you know, this organisation, Hizb ut Tahrir, has been
supported by almost every Islamic organisation or imam in Australia,
including the Grand Mufti, Australia’s highest ranking Islamic figure.

The truth is that Hizb ut Tahrir is the political wing of an Islamic
insurgency intent on overthrowing our system of government.

Then the Prime Minister flew to Europe and rejected calls for European
nations to shut their borders to an Islamic invasion.

Within a couple of days, 130 people lay dead in Paris and hundreds
more were wounded. These attacks were carried out by immigrants who
lived in France, but who never became French.

And now, Prime Minister Malcolm Turnbull wants us to negotiate a
political settlement in Syria. He thinks the Islamic State can be
dealt with by nothing more than words.

As such, it is clear that the Prime Minister, installed by the
majority of his Liberal party colleagues, has simply no idea about the
nature of Islamic ideology or how we should confront its attacks on
us.

The second example relates to government funding of Islam in this
country. This is just a small example of how your taxes are spent:

The federal government has provided millions over the last five years
to ‘deradicalisation’ programs. Only one out of 87 of these programs
actually deals with radicalised individuals. The remainder actually
promote Islam. Some of these programs over the last 12 months are:

$120,000 has been provided for an Australian Rules Football
competition open only to Islamic schools.

$114,820 has been provided to tackle violence between Islamic sects
within the Islamic community.

$115,700 has been allocated to a program called People Against Violent
Extremism. It tackles extremism by trying to ‘deradicalise’ those who
oppose the construction of new mosques in their local community.

$56,500 was allocated to SalamCare. This group is led by a person who
wrote Allahu Akbar on their Facebook page when the Islamic State
announced that it had formed the caliphate and it campaigns against
radicalisation by trying to stop people like the courageous Dutch
politician, Geert Wilders, from coming to Australia.

Over $1 million has been allocated by the Attorney-General’s
Department to pay for the legal fees of those facing terrorism charges
or who are being questioned by ASIO.

Over $15 million was allocated to improve school security last year.
Islamic schools made up the vast majority of schools to receive
funding for this project.

$66,000 was provided by the Australian Federal Police to the Lebanese
Muslim Association. This organisation has hosted a US-based imam who
has stated:

“If we put a nationwide infrastructure in place and marshalled our
resources, we’d take over this country in a very short time….What a
great victory it will be for Islam to have this country in the fold
and ranks of the Muslims.”

Over $165 million was given to Islam-sympathetic groups by Centrelink
to help resettle migrants in Australia in the last 12 months.

And the Queensland government is now funding mosque open days.

The list goes on. The Prime Minister doesn’t understand the threat.
And our government uses our taxes to fund and promote Islam. This
helps to explain why, despite the billions that we spend on this
problem, it is only getting worse.

The third example is that of our Australian Army.

It is now removing a motto from the hat badges of its Christian
chaplains because it has been deemed offensive to Muslims.

This motto is “In this sign conquer”.

The appeasement within the military comes just a few months after the
appointment of the first imam in the Australian Defence Force, Sheikh
Mohammadu Nawas Saleem.

Saleem is one of Australia’s most prominent imams. He is the treasurer
of the Australian National Imams Council and works very closely with
the Grand Mufti.

And Sheikh Saleem has called for Sharia law to implemented in Australia.

He has supported Hizb ut Tahrir publicly. This is the same Hizb ut
Tahrir that says Muslims must not attend Anzac Day because it
represents an attack on the caliphate. This is the same Hizb ut Tahrir
that defends the concept of honour killings.

Sheikh Saleem has opposed military action against the Islamic State.
And he has condemned laws that prohibit the advocation of terrorism on
the basis that they limit the free speech of Islamic preachers.

And the Liberal government appointed this imam to the military. His
job is to help increase recruitment from the Islamic community.

Just so you know, the Islamic community has more of its sons fighting
for the Islamic State than for Australia.

All of these examples highlight how unprepared our political leaders,
our government and our military is to deal with the threat of Islamic
violence.

And if they won’t defend against Islamic violence, then we are also
wide open for subversion in other ways: through the implementation of
halal certification, through the acceptance of polygamy via
Centrelink, through the indoctrination of our children in the national
curriculum.

If our government cannot bring itself to understand the violence of
Islam, it will never be able to defend itself against the non-violent
but equally subversive political threat that Islam poses in a
democracy.

But I have not come here today to tell you how bad things are.

You already know it. Australians everywhere already understand this.

What we desperately need is a solution and that is why I am here
because the Australian Liberty Alliance is that solution.

The Australian Liberty Alliance will stand up to the threat of Islam
and we will do this while Australia still has time to act. It is
important to understand this. The problems in Australia are there, but
they are not as great as those faced by Europe.

So we have a window of opportunity to act and for the future of our
children, we must.

This is the Australian Liberty Alliance’s plan.

The Australian Liberty Alliance will stop Islamic immigration.

It will do this by imposing a moratorium on immigration from any
countries that are members of the Organisation of Islamic Cooperation,
with exceptions only for persecuted non-Muslims from those countries.

The Australian Liberty Alliance will axe the halal certification tax.

It will do this by scrapping all halal certification fees and forcing
the Islamic community to pay for its own religious offices. That will
kill the profit taking. And it will force producers to clearly label
their products and explain to Australians that the food they buy –
especially meat – has been produced as part of an Islamic animal
sacrifice. This will kill demand and halal certification will simply
disappear.

The Australian Liberty Alliance will reject any government support for
Sharia law, in law and in practice.

That means there will be no more welfare for polygamous Islamic
families, no segregation of women, no female genital mutilation and
none of the other Islamic practices that are incompatible with
Australian culture and society.

The Australian Liberty Alliance will put an end to the construction of
dangerous new mosques and Islamic schools.

It will force Islamic organisations to sign up to a Charter of Muslim
Understanding, which will require these organisations to reform Islam
so that it no longer acts as a violent political ideology, if they
wish to be classified as religious organisations. And the party will
work with local governments to introduce proper and stringent risk
assessments into the development planning process.

This means that without reform of Islam, and I doubt that will ever
happen, there will be no new mosques and existing mosques will face
the prospect of being shut down.

The Australian Liberty Alliance will also address the threat of
terrorism by addressing the problem: Islam.

Our intelligence and security agencies will be directed to gain a true
understanding of Islam, rather than the politically-correct version
that they pretend into existence today. These organisations will no
longer be allowed to promote this religion or its ideas.

And the Australian Liberty Alliance will start using treachery laws
against those who support the Islamic State and other Islamic
terrorist groups against our own Defence Force.

All of these measures could be implemented today. And if they were,
the problem we face would not grow and the serious troublemakers
within the Islamic community would be neutralised, while the remainder
of the Islamic community would soon get the message: get on board with
Team Australia, or face the full force of the law. Most of them want
to and we welcome that.

The situation within Australia is containable if we act today. If we
wait until 2020 or 2025, it may well be too late.

Unfortunately, these decisions are not being taken because our current
leaders do not understand the problem and they do not have the will to
act. They are lethargic in the face of the enemy.

Australians deserve much better and that is what the Australian
Liberty Alliance will provide: an energy to act, driven by a proud and
uncompromising belief in our Western Christian civilisation.

Unlike the others, the Australian Liberty Alliance is proud that it is
proud of Australia.

As a result, the Australian Liberty Alliance is not just addressing
the big picture. Its policies, intent and resolve will also address
the problems that Australians face in their local communities: like
right here on the Gold Coast.

For instance, the Gold Coast Mayor, Tom Tate, has been quoted in
Islamic webpages outlining a vision where entire suburbs convert to
Islam in order to bring in Islamic tourists.

I say this: Tom Tate might as well strap a suicide vest to the Gold
Coast’s tourism industry. I grew up in Southport. I love this city and
I know why people come here. It is not because of Islam. Sharia
tourism will kill the Gold Coast. These ideas must be stopped and as
the Australian Liberty Alliance grows it will work with local Gold
Coast residents to run strong campaigns for good local representatives
to be elected to council so that they can fight this dangerous
political correctness.

This is how we must protect ourselves from Islam: and not just Islam’s
threat of violence, but the danger it also offers against our economic
security and our social fabric.

Of course, the Australian Liberty Alliance is more than a party
focused on Islam.

It is not a single issue party. It has a conservative philosophy and
policies that will help Australians in other ways. Its vision is for a
smaller, decentralised government that does not leave a legacy of debt
for future generations.

It believes in reform of the tax system. At the moment debate is
focused solely on new taxes. The Australian Liberty Alliance believes
that it is more important to look at how current taxes are spent and
how the grants system allows government funds to flow into projects
that have no responsibility, accountability or oversight.

It will sell the SBS to the highest bidder and put a broom through the ABC.

The Australian Liberty Alliance will support natural families and
reform welfare so that it is not used as a substitute for work, but so
that it also provides Australian families with more choice and
opportunity to spend time with their children raising them.

It will not waste billions trying to control the level of the oceans,
yet the Australian Liberty Alliance’s environmental policies will have
the exact same impact on the climate as those of other parties.

The Australian Liberty Alliance will address the flaws in our
education system and refocus our schools so that they teach the basics
exceptionally well and this will set the foundation for exceptional
higher educational studies.

These are all ideas that the Australian Liberty Alliance will
champion. And our political system needs debate about these ideas.

At the moment, the major parties have a monopoly on debate. They are
the Coles and Woolworths of politics, screwing down on the voters.

Their efforts and endeavours are not about providing customer service
or better products. Instead, they focused solely on maintain their
monopoly on power. We desperately need an Aldi to come and shake up
the system.

That is what the Australian Liberty Alliance will do and by doing so,
it will provide Australians with a brighter future.

That future starts at the next election. Between now and then I will
be working night and day to campaign for the Australian Liberty
Alliance and I hope you will join me in that campaign.

We need to build a strong team on the Gold Coast and across
Queensland. This campaign will not be successful if it is a one man
band. But it will succeed if we work as a team and the turn out
tonight shows that we are well and truly on the way to building this
team, this army of patriotic Australians. I look forward to growing
that team on the Gold Coast from tonight.

I also thank you for coming tonight. I thank for you for already
standing tall and fighting hard for Australia. And I thank you for
your support of the Australian Liberty Alliance.

Source: http://pickeringpost.com/story/-ala-senate-candidate-struts-his-stuff/5620




From Rayzer at riseup.net  Mon Nov 30 09:21:31 2015
From: Rayzer at riseup.net (Rayzer)
Date: Mon, 30 Nov 2015 09:21:31 -0800
Subject: Brief history lesson on Islam - Fwd: ALA Senate candidate Bernard
 Gaynor struts his stuff in a powerful speech.
In-Reply-To: <CAOsGNSS-du2emi8UAiEQtFzcx-zm0FL+Vt8WC3O6svR+UUp9wQ@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAOsGNSQqaWFWVYDCy+NDsNENmF2WodxFC0_GUPNtgprzVG4tzQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <565C1AD2.7060305@riseup.net>
 <CAOsGNSS-du2emi8UAiEQtFzcx-zm0FL+Vt8WC3O6svR+UUp9wQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <565C859B.8010505@riseup.net>

Zenaan Harkness wrote:
> The "Christian" ethic of "turn the other cheek" can be, and I say is,
> abused.

Is the 'christian ethic of turn the other cheek' even present in the
oldest version of the new testament. Or is it just as badly butchered as
every other so-called 'holy book'?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Codex_Sinaiticus#Unique_and_other_textual_variants


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From james at talkunafraid.co.uk  Mon Nov 30 01:24:45 2015
From: james at talkunafraid.co.uk (James Harrison)
Date: Mon, 30 Nov 2015 09:24:45 +0000
Subject: Mandatory Access Control ?
In-Reply-To: <565B35A8.1090007@cyberguerrilla.org>
References: <CAOsGNSTjOUT-_qEV3EEYF-+0y3khwcc4xFyzBzGh17=Q7oyxPw@mail.gmail.com>
 <56380CC2.2070506@openmailbox.org> <20151103035136.50a9ff16@emailcontrol.org>
 <20151103164028.GA2617@sivokote.iziade.m$>
 <20151106124325.258dfde9@emailcontrol.org>
 <565B35A8.1090007@cyberguerrilla.org>
Message-ID: <565C15DD.4030502@talkunafraid.co.uk>

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1

On 29/11/2015 17:28, c4p0 wrote:
> someone can give me your opinion about it?

SELinux on Jessie is a nightmare since there's no maintainers for the
refpolicy/MLS packages any more.

AppArmor is probably the way to go, though it's pretty limited in what
it can do.

- -- 
Cheers,
James Harrison
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From 3ndless at riseup.net  Mon Nov 30 01:45:54 2015
From: 3ndless at riseup.net (Endless)
Date: Mon, 30 Nov 2015 09:45:54 +0000
Subject: Brief history lesson on Islam - Fwd: ALA Senate candidate Bernard
 Gaynor struts his stuff in a powerful speech.
In-Reply-To: <CAOsGNSQqaWFWVYDCy+NDsNENmF2WodxFC0_GUPNtgprzVG4tzQ@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAOsGNSQqaWFWVYDCy+NDsNENmF2WodxFC0_GUPNtgprzVG4tzQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <565C1AD2.7060305@riseup.net>

>
> From an aspiring Australian senate candidate who I and many others
> admire, Bernard Gaynor. Hopefully he is observant enough to not get
> imprisoned on trumped up charges like Pauline Hanson did some years
> back due to a united effort (it turned out) between our two major
> ("left" and "right") political parties.
> 
> Good luck Bernard,
> Zenaan
> 


Hello Zenaan,

I'm afraid that Islam, and Islamic ideology, although undoubtedly
founded in the midst of violence and chaos and closely linked to quite
violent and bloody wars throughout much of history, is not a violent
religion.
Texts in the Qur'an, as in the bible, promote and glorify the violence
of it's followers when perceived in the context of historic events. Such
is the nature of holy texts, advocating the victory of their followers
in battle over the followers of other religions pertaining to foreign
cultures.

To say that Islam is a violent religion by referencing battles that
occurred hundreds of years ago completely negliges the positions members
of other religions and faiths, such as Christians, took throughout the
course of history.
Christian movements such as the crusades and the idea of spreading
religion through missionaries to be a noble act caused damage in the
same way that Islamic movements did by conquering swathes of land in
order to spread their ideology and economic power. Such a comparison
clearly reflects the nature of religions based on interpretative
scripture without so much as delving into the violence caused as a
result of more modern colonialism, closely linked with Christian
ideology and capitalism.

An even more modern example of tragedy motivated by religious
interpretation is that of Australia's "stolen generations", where, by
means of the Christian religion, Australian society itself separated up
to 30% of indigenous children from their families.
Evidently, no religion is immune to acts of violence perpetrated in the
name of religion or "protection of religion", taking as an example the
persistent Israeli-Palestinian conflict, where Judaism and the fear of
Jewish people being oppressed is used as an excuse for the colonization
of Palestinian territory.

To blindly accuse "Islam" as the root of all violence perpetrated by
those proclaiming to be of Islamic faith is a broad and particularly
callous generalization, especially when addressing the issue of
immigration. Regardless of one's religion, if a person is conditioned to
react with violence, violence will ensue. Preventing any group of people
based on their faith from immigrating to a country is simply
discrimination issuing from a stereotype propagated by members of a
society acting out of fear. Instead of screening immigrants (refugees or
otherwise) based on their religion, it would be much more appropriate to
screen for signs that a person may attempt to perpetrate or incite violence.


> Ladies and gentleman, Australia is facing a crisis.

Australia is not facing a crisis. Rather, the Australian government is
facing a particularly tough issue of generalization and
misrepresentation within Australian borders.
I hope that Australia will not succumb to the fear and hatred of Muslim
people so often preached by those able to benefit from it.


All the best,
Endless

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From admin at pilobilus.net  Mon Nov 30 08:46:27 2015
From: admin at pilobilus.net (Steve Kinney)
Date: Mon, 30 Nov 2015 11:46:27 -0500
Subject: Mandatory Access Control ?
In-Reply-To: <565C15DD.4030502@talkunafraid.co.uk>
References: <CAOsGNSTjOUT-_qEV3EEYF-+0y3khwcc4xFyzBzGh17=Q7oyxPw@mail.gmail.com>
 <56380CC2.2070506@openmailbox.org> <20151103035136.50a9ff16@emailcontrol.org>
 <20151103164028.GA2617@sivokote.iziade.m$>
 <20151106124325.258dfde9@emailcontrol.org>
 <565B35A8.1090007@cyberguerrilla.org> <565C15DD.4030502@talkunafraid.co.uk>
Message-ID: <565C7D63.2050202@pilobilus.net>

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1

On 11/30/2015 04:24 AM, James Harrison wrote:
> On 29/11/2015 17:28, c4p0 wrote:
>> someone can give me your opinion about it?
> 
> SELinux on Jessie is a nightmare since there's no maintainers
> for the refpolicy/MLS packages any more.
> 
> AppArmor is probably the way to go, though it's pretty limited
> in what it can do.

A feature comparison;

http://www.cyberciti.biz/tips/selinux-vs-apparmor-vs-grsecurity.html

Yet another option:  Create your own 'Live DVD' from a shiny new
security-enhanced OS instance, use encrypted R/W media for data
file persistence.  Anything that does climb out of its sandbox
won't persist beyond the current session.

:o)











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From zen at freedbms.net  Mon Nov 30 04:33:45 2015
From: zen at freedbms.net (Zenaan Harkness)
Date: Mon, 30 Nov 2015 12:33:45 +0000
Subject: Brief history lesson on Islam - Fwd: ALA Senate candidate Bernard
 Gaynor struts his stuff in a powerful speech.
In-Reply-To: <565C1AD2.7060305@riseup.net>
References: <CAOsGNSQqaWFWVYDCy+NDsNENmF2WodxFC0_GUPNtgprzVG4tzQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <565C1AD2.7060305@riseup.net>
Message-ID: <CAOsGNSS-du2emi8UAiEQtFzcx-zm0FL+Vt8WC3O6svR+UUp9wQ@mail.gmail.com>

On 11/30/15, Endless <3ndless at riseup.net> wrote:
>>
>> From an aspiring Australian senate candidate who I and many others
>> admire, Bernard Gaynor. Hopefully he is observant enough to not get
>> imprisoned on trumped up charges like Pauline Hanson did some years
>> back due to a united effort (it turned out) between our two major
>> ("left" and "right") political parties.
>>
>> Good luck Bernard,
>> Zenaan
>>
>
>
> Hello Zenaan,
>
> I'm afraid that Islam, and Islamic ideology, although undoubtedly
> founded in the midst of violence and chaos and closely linked to quite
> violent and bloody wars throughout much of history, is not a violent
> religion.
> Texts in the Qur'an, as in the bible, promote and glorify the violence
> of it's followers when perceived in the context of historic events. Such
> is the nature of holy texts, advocating the victory of their followers
> in battle over the followers of other religions pertaining to foreign
> cultures.
>
> To say that Islam is a violent religion by referencing battles that
> occurred hundreds of years ago completely negliges the positions members
> of other religions and faiths, such as Christians, took throughout the
> course of history.
> Christian movements such as the crusades and the idea of spreading
> religion through missionaries to be a noble act caused damage in the
> same way that Islamic movements did by conquering swathes of land in
> order to spread their ideology and economic power. Such a comparison
> clearly reflects the nature of religions based on interpretative
> scripture without so much as delving into the violence caused as a
> result of more modern colonialism, closely linked with Christian
> ideology and capitalism.

I agree that religion nearly always degenerates into control of its
"followers" in more or less degraded and degrading ways. The Tibetans
on the whole are (from what I've read) much better off under the
system imposed by the Chinese than they were under the system imposed
by Lamas, "Lamaism" ultimately under the Dalai Lama.

To excessively generalise, and to stick to "at this point in history,
as in, 2015 AD", could you agree that the current manifestation of
"Islamists" (i.e. those extreme individuals professing faith in
Islam), is in fact problematic for the "reasonably comfortable"
Christian/ democratic "west"?

Recently Russia has implemented some significant changes in Crimea,
replacing the Turkish Imam with a new Russian Imam, building a new
large mosque, and I think also some other legislative measures.

Russia seems to approach "Islamism", by 'implementing' it's version of
Islam and importing a "truly moderate" Imam.

My question might be getting lost. Perhaps, do you consider it
sensible to distinguish between moderates and extremists of any
religion?

If so, given the current extreme level of emigration from Syria, Libya
and other Muslim areas of our little planet, is there some wisdom in
attempting to distinguish between true moderates and extremists or
even "likely to be extremists"?


I problem I see is that in our 'modern' 'democratic' striving for
'secularism', we in the so called west have given up on morals and
ethics ('goodness as each individual conceives goodness') for an
extreme relativism, where no one really takes any stand for anything,
and it appears to me that "evil" paths of action are pursued by
western powers (companies, individuals, nations) in the pursuit of
power, oil, control.


> An even more modern example of tragedy motivated by religious
> interpretation is that of Australia's "stolen generations", where, by
> means of the Christian religion, Australian society itself separated up
> to 30% of indigenous children from their families.

And the settlers in Tasmania systematically slaughtered the aborigines
of Tasmania (an island state of Australia). Heinous crimes. Genocide
of the first order.

Yes, humans can be a problem. In fact, humans usually are the primary problem.


> Evidently, no religion is immune to acts of violence perpetrated in the
> name of religion or "protection of religion", taking as an example the
> persistent Israeli-Palestinian conflict, where Judaism and the fear of
> Jewish people being oppressed is used as an excuse for the colonization
> of Palestinian territory.
>
> To blindly accuse "Islam" as the root of all violence perpetrated by
> those proclaiming to be of Islamic faith is a broad and particularly
> callous generalization, especially when addressing the issue of
> immigration.

http://www.thereligionofpeace.com/Muhammad/myths-mu-home.htm

http://thestoryofmohammed.blogspot.com.au


To handle the genuine problem of violent immigrants and the difficulty
in properly assessing individuals for the violent potential, perhaps a
contractual bind - you want to be here, you sign and agree to:
- not engage in criminal acts as defined by our statutory criminal code
- if you engage in any criminal act according to our statutory
criminal code, you will be immediately deported to the country you
were allegedly fleeing

The "Christian" ethic of "turn the other cheek" can be, and I say is,
abused. Abused by our politicians, abused by our schooling
institutions turning us into compliant citizens. And abused by those
who immigrate to Australia with intent to implement "emigration jihad"
which by my readings, is a religious duty, at least for some Muslims
(or is that Islamists? - too many terms sorry).


> Regardless of one's religion, if a person is conditioned to
> react with violence, violence will ensue.

I agree. This is a straightforward and logical position. And it's the
violent acts that need to be handled, and ideally minimise the entry
of violent people into our country.

Can we identify violent people amongst those who are attempting to
immigrate? Some people say we shouldn't distinguish between "good" and
"bad" inclined people - they are just poor refugees fleeing war and
who have suffered (which may be true) and we ought to suffer them
regardless - I disagree with unlimited tolerance and acceptance of all
beliefs, all positions - violent positions and violent beliefs are not
only held, but preached, believed and acted upon.

A policy to deter violence by immigrants:
If they commit any violent crime, immediate deportation ought be mandatory.


> Preventing any group of people
> based on their faith from immigrating to a country is simply
> discrimination issuing from a stereotype propagated by members of a
> society acting out of fear. Instead of screening immigrants (refugees or
> otherwise) based on their religion, it would be much more appropriate to
> screen for signs that a person may attempt to perpetrate or incite
> violence.

And an indicator may, for a not so random example, Sudanese Muslims.
But all you can do is assess areas and people for indicators - I think
a deterrent as suggested above is what's needed.

And I think that without such deterrents, and an excess of immigrants
who commit crimes, the problems may lead to vigilante reprisal groups
- which may well have its own problems (people taking the law into
their own hands, without evidence, trials, witnesses - nothing - is
this where we want to head?).


>> Ladies and gentleman, Australia is facing a crisis.
>
> Australia is not facing a crisis. Rather, the Australian government is
> facing a particularly tough issue of generalization and
> misrepresentation within Australian borders.
> I hope that Australia will not succumb to the fear and hatred of Muslim
> people so often preached by those able to benefit from it.

I can only agree - it is abhorrent actions which ought be handled.
Political correctness however casts a great dampener on much
"political" debate in Australia, but that's another problem...

Zenaan




From jason.mcvetta at gmail.com  Mon Nov 30 14:11:27 2015
From: jason.mcvetta at gmail.com (Jason McVetta)
Date: Mon, 30 Nov 2015 14:11:27 -0800
Subject: DuckDuckGo
Message-ID: <CAN9H=iL90S6=xp0xVxv5WrHtncjFHjUjce8HRajY8Nty_HHbnw@mail.gmail.com>

On Mon, Nov 30, 2015 at 1:56 PM, rysiek <rysiek at hackerspace.pl> wrote:

>
> DuckDuckGo to the rescue.


DuckDuckGo is an obvious honeypot.  Why does anyone use it?
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From Rayzer at riseup.net  Mon Nov 30 14:16:08 2015
From: Rayzer at riseup.net (Rayzer)
Date: Mon, 30 Nov 2015 14:16:08 -0800
Subject: Brief history lesson on Islam - Fwd: ALA Senate candidate Bernard
 Gaynor struts his stuff in a powerful speech.
In-Reply-To: <CAOsGNSQqaWFWVYDCy+NDsNENmF2WodxFC0_GUPNtgprzVG4tzQ@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAOsGNSQqaWFWVYDCy+NDsNENmF2WodxFC0_GUPNtgprzVG4tzQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <565CCAA8.4040304@riseup.net>

Since this is ostensibly about the history of Islam it's worth noting I
had to factcheck a NewsWeek article today because it was BLATANTLY wrong.

It tweeted like this...
https://twitter.com/AuntieImperial/status/671434898402582536

The Kingdom of #SaudiArabia, "where “punishment by the sword” has been
practiced for centuries" has existed for one single century @NewsWeek

Got that @Newsweek? #SaudiArabIa is a barely century old British
construct (1932) & the 'house of Saud' has Turkish, not Arabic, bloodlines

But we REALLY can't expect a globally read MSM NEWS outlet like
@Newsweek to fact check their shit before publishing
http://www.newsweek.com/2014/10/24/when-it-comes-beheadings-isis-has-nothing-over-saudi-arabia-277385.html

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From juan.g71 at gmail.com  Mon Nov 30 09:51:54 2015
From: juan.g71 at gmail.com (juan)
Date: Mon, 30 Nov 2015 14:51:54 -0300
Subject: Brief history lesson on Islam - Fwd: ALA Senate candidate
 Bernard Gaynor struts his stuff in a powerful speech.
In-Reply-To: <565C859B.8010505@riseup.net>
References: <CAOsGNSQqaWFWVYDCy+NDsNENmF2WodxFC0_GUPNtgprzVG4tzQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <565C1AD2.7060305@riseup.net>
 <CAOsGNSS-du2emi8UAiEQtFzcx-zm0FL+Vt8WC3O6svR+UUp9wQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <565C859B.8010505@riseup.net>
Message-ID: <565c8af5.22618c0a.af38e.00e6@mx.google.com>

On Mon, 30 Nov 2015 09:21:31 -0800
Rayzer <Rayzer at riseup.net> wrote:

> Zenaan Harkness wrote:
> > The "Christian" ethic of "turn the other cheek" can be, and I say
> > is, abused.
> 
> Is the 'christian ethic of turn the other cheek' even present in the
> oldest version of the new testament.


	Has any single christian ever 'turned the other cheek'?

	Actually, a quick look at the real world shows that
	jew-christianity is the biggest criminal enterprise on the
	planet. 



 Or is it just as badly butchered
> as every other so-called 'holy book'?
> 
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Codex_Sinaiticus#Unique_and_other_textual_variants
> 
> 




From Rayzer at riseup.net  Mon Nov 30 15:06:42 2015
From: Rayzer at riseup.net (Rayzer)
Date: Mon, 30 Nov 2015 15:06:42 -0800
Subject: DuckDuckGo
In-Reply-To: <CAN9H=iL90S6=xp0xVxv5WrHtncjFHjUjce8HRajY8Nty_HHbnw@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAN9H=iL90S6=xp0xVxv5WrHtncjFHjUjce8HRajY8Nty_HHbnw@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <565CD682.9040600@riseup.net>

Jason McVetta wrote:
>
> DuckDuckGo is an obvious honeypot.  Why does anyone use it?

OBVIOUS honeypot? Why do you say that? There's nothing particularly
OBVIOUS about it or someone besides you would notice...

Cites?

RR


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From jason.mcvetta at gmail.com  Mon Nov 30 15:30:47 2015
From: jason.mcvetta at gmail.com (Jason McVetta)
Date: Mon, 30 Nov 2015 15:30:47 -0800
Subject: DuckDuckGo
In-Reply-To: <565CD682.9040600@riseup.net>
References: <CAN9H=iL90S6=xp0xVxv5WrHtncjFHjUjce8HRajY8Nty_HHbnw@mail.gmail.com>
 <565CD682.9040600@riseup.net>
Message-ID: <CAN9H=iKNqKwkvKR=5oqj1tCD6GxPciP23i_4kfftgA3gc_QmrQ@mail.gmail.com>

On Mon, Nov 30, 2015 at 3:06 PM, Rayzer <Rayzer at riseup.net> wrote:

> OBVIOUS honeypot? Why do you say that? There's nothing particularly
> OBVIOUS about it or someone besides you would notice...
>


First of all, DDG's claims of privacy follow the implausible general model
of "heyyy, just trust us!"

But there's a historical reason as well.  On the first day DuckDuckGo was
announced, I did a whois query on duckduckgo.com.  The domain was
registered to an address in Annapolis, MD.  A small building near the Naval
Academy.  Not proof of course, but suggestive.

The whois record was changed soon thereafter.
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From tbiehn at gmail.com  Mon Nov 30 13:08:43 2015
From: tbiehn at gmail.com (Travis Biehn)
Date: Mon, 30 Nov 2015 16:08:43 -0500
Subject: Mandatory Access Control ?
In-Reply-To: <2326748.eY0dobz3lJ@lapuntu>
References: <CAOsGNSTjOUT-_qEV3EEYF-+0y3khwcc4xFyzBzGh17=Q7oyxPw@mail.gmail.com>
 <565C15DD.4030502@talkunafraid.co.uk> <565C7D63.2050202@pilobilus.net>
 <2326748.eY0dobz3lJ@lapuntu>
Message-ID: <CAKtE3zfi2QdRYLOFYi7V1ZoSHGRqmLPdWee0oDmQXMiJAUGXpw@mail.gmail.com>

On Mon, Nov 30, 2015 at 3:54 PM, rysiek <rysiek at hackerspace.pl> wrote:

> Dnia poniedziałek, 30 listopada 2015 11:46:27 Steve Kinney pisze:
> > On 11/30/2015 04:24 AM, James Harrison wrote:
> > > On 29/11/2015 17:28, c4p0 wrote:
> > >> someone can give me your opinion about it?
> > >
> > > SELinux on Jessie is a nightmare since there's no maintainers
> > > for the refpolicy/MLS packages any more.
> > >
> > > AppArmor is probably the way to go, though it's pretty limited
> > > in what it can do.
> >
> > A feature comparison;
> >
> > http://www.cyberciti.biz/tips/selinux-vs-apparmor-vs-grsecurity.html
> >
> > Yet another option:  Create your own 'Live DVD' from a shiny new
> > security-enhanced OS instance, use encrypted R/W media for data
> > file persistence.  Anything that does climb out of its sandbox
> > won't persist beyond the current session.
> >
> > :o)
>
> Actually, I was thinking of using a doctored SD card for the /boot
> partition.
> Question is: is it possible to *physically* disable writes on an SD card?
>
> CDs/DVDs are so unwieldy...
>
> --
> Pozdrawiam,
> Michał "rysiek" Woźniak
>
> Zmieniam klucz GPG :: http://rys.io/pl/147
> GPG Key Transition :: http://rys.io/en/147


Except anything that writes to your other hardware, firmwares, BIOS etc...

R/O is a good idea, though. Just, don't consider it the 'silver bullet'.

-- 
Twitter <https://twitter.com/tbiehn> | LinkedIn
<http://www.linkedin.com/in/travisbiehn> | GitHub <http://github.com/tbiehn>
| TravisBiehn.com <http://www.travisbiehn.com> | Google Plus
<https://plus.google.com/+TravisBiehn>
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From grarpamp at gmail.com  Mon Nov 30 15:04:37 2015
From: grarpamp at gmail.com (grarpamp)
Date: Mon, 30 Nov 2015 18:04:37 -0500
Subject: Haynault's Pattern, Seeing God,
 Susceptability [re: Brief history on FSM]
Message-ID: <CAD2Ti2-mZGOt+hmTTt8_sFVjunbXmBvaXdzDx_5ubQ7SLKcjZw@mail.gmail.com>

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8VER5_j9VHI
http://www.fleen.org/
http://pmwdzvbyvnmwobk5.onion/project/brain_hacking
http://skunksworkedp2cg.onion/
Seek, and ye shall find...




From grarpamp at gmail.com  Mon Nov 30 15:20:51 2015
From: grarpamp at gmail.com (grarpamp)
Date: Mon, 30 Nov 2015 18:20:51 -0500
Subject: DuckDuckGo
In-Reply-To: <CAN9H=iL90S6=xp0xVxv5WrHtncjFHjUjce8HRajY8Nty_HHbnw@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAN9H=iL90S6=xp0xVxv5WrHtncjFHjUjce8HRajY8Nty_HHbnw@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAD2Ti2_S8W=5gtkhJ2CjH7J69CNEoN5mGfVo1LP4bCW-dKni4g@mail.gmail.com>

On Mon, Nov 30, 2015 at 5:11 PM, Jason McVetta <jason.mcvetta at gmail.com> wrote:
> DuckDuckGo is an obvious honeypot.

Then search a deeper layer...
http://monitortwo3m3d4b.onion/




From juan.g71 at gmail.com  Mon Nov 30 14:37:02 2015
From: juan.g71 at gmail.com (juan)
Date: Mon, 30 Nov 2015 19:37:02 -0300
Subject: DuckDuckGo
In-Reply-To: <CAN9H=iL90S6=xp0xVxv5WrHtncjFHjUjce8HRajY8Nty_HHbnw@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAN9H=iL90S6=xp0xVxv5WrHtncjFHjUjce8HRajY8Nty_HHbnw@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <565ccdc9.73608c0a.24d14.7599@mx.google.com>

On Mon, 30 Nov 2015 14:11:27 -0800
Jason McVetta <jason.mcvetta at gmail.com> wrote:

> On Mon, Nov 30, 2015 at 1:56 PM, rysiek <rysiek at hackerspace.pl> wrote:
> 
> >
> > DuckDuckGo to the rescue.
> 
> 
> DuckDuckGo is an obvious honeypot.  Why does anyone use it?


	which one isn't? 




From jason.mcvetta at gmail.com  Mon Nov 30 21:13:50 2015
From: jason.mcvetta at gmail.com (Jason McVetta)
Date: Mon, 30 Nov 2015 21:13:50 -0800
Subject: DuckDuckGo
In-Reply-To: <1469354.LnzHOKxhlb@lapuntu>
References: <CAN9H=iL90S6=xp0xVxv5WrHtncjFHjUjce8HRajY8Nty_HHbnw@mail.gmail.com>
 <565CD682.9040600@riseup.net>
 <CAN9H=iKNqKwkvKR=5oqj1tCD6GxPciP23i_4kfftgA3gc_QmrQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <1469354.LnzHOKxhlb@lapuntu>
Message-ID: <CAN9H=iJEXHuemtbAAGRtdr=u6+6qTKJhDj2CxWUp24Qu0QSJvw@mail.gmail.com>

On Mon, Nov 30, 2015 at 8:32 PM, rysiek <rysiek at hackerspace.pl> wrote:

> That's true. However, that's still better than Google or Bing, which don't
> even go that far.
>

Is a wolf in sheep's clothing better than an overt wolf?



> What I'm trying to say, I guess, is: it would be nice if we had something
> more
>
to work with than just "some guys on the Internets said that for realz the
> WHOIS showed Annapolis."
>

Fair enough.  You have no particular reason to believe me; and a domain
registration address adjacent the Naval Academy doesn't prove anything.
Nevertheless that's why I consider DDG an obvious honeypot.  YMMV.
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From afalex169 at gmail.com  Mon Nov 30 11:53:26 2015
From: afalex169 at gmail.com (=?UTF-8?B?INCQ0LvQtdC60YHQsNC90LTRgCA=?=)
Date: Mon, 30 Nov 2015 21:53:26 +0200
Subject: Give Me Your Data Without a Warrant
Message-ID: <CAEm6KbLTg8b31LXSdrO7=OZ=13FopJ2e8JBG6KDc_VB6Bb63rg@mail.gmail.com>

​*We knew that - didn't we?*
But most people are simply too lazy or too afraid to stand up against the
aggressor or at least to change their own  internet behaviour, but often
believe they could bigmouth about "Nothing to hide ..." and get away with
it.

In all times the dictators could trust in the laziness, ignorance and fear
of their sheeple.
While in Fortress Europe now martial law, kin liability and arrest for
thought or free speech have been imposed like under Nazi Germany, the
USofAmerica are leading us all into WWIII.

*Revealed: *
*FBI can demand web history, phone location data without a warrant*

The FBI can use national security letters (NSLs) to force companies to turn
over sensitive user data without a warrant, according to filings.

By Zack Whittaker <http://www.zdnet.com/meet-the-team/us/zack-whittaker/>
for Zero Day <http://www.zdnet.com/blog/security/> | November 30, 2015 --
16:35 GMT (08:35 PST) | Topic: Security
<http://www.zdnet.com/topic/security/>

The FBI can compel companies and individuals to turn over vast sums of
personal data without a warrant, it has been revealed for the first time.

In a case that's lasted more than a decade, a court filing released Monday
<https://yale.app.box.com/Nicholas-Merrill-SDNY-Decision> showed how the
FBI used secret interpretations to determine the scope of national security
letters (NSLs).

Nicholas Merrill, founder of internet provider Calyx Internet Access, who
brought the 11-year-old case to court after his company was served a
national security letter, won the case earlier this year.

National security letters are almost always bundled with a gag order,
preventing Merrill from speaking freely about the letter he received.

While it was known that national security letters can demand customer and
user data, it wasn't known exactly what.

In a statement on Monday, Merrill revealed the FBI has used its authority
to force companies and individuals to turn over complete web browsing
history; the IP addresses of everyone a person has corresponded with;
online purchase information, and also cell-site location information, which
he said can be used to turn a person's phone into a "location tracking
device."

According to a release <https://yale.app.box.com/NSL-Attachment-Unredacted>,
the FBI can also force a company to release postal addresses, email
addresses, and "any other information which [is] considered to be an
electronic communication transactional record."

Merrill said in remarks: "The FBI has interpreted its NSL authority to
encompass the websites we read, the web searches we conduct, the people we
contact, and the places we go. This kind of data reveals the most intimate
details of our lives, including our political activities, religious
affiliations, private relationships, and even our private thoughts and
beliefs."

Federal district judge Victor Marrero described in his decision that the
FBI's position was "extreme and overly broad."

He also found that the FBI's overbroad gag order on Mr. Merrill "implicates
serious issues, both with respect to the First Amendment and accountability
of the government to the people."

Merrill is the first person who has succeeded in completely lifting a
national security letter gag order.

The Patriot Act expanded the reach of national security letters when it was
signed into law a month after the September 11 attacks in 2001.

More than ten thousand national security letters are issued by the FBI
every year, without a warrant or judicial oversight.

These letters have been surrounded with controversy for years, leading to
many unsuccessful attempts to litigate against them. Major companies,
including Google
<http://www.zdnet.com/article/google-fails-to-strike-down-fbis-unconstitutional-secret-gagging-orders/>,
have challenged national security letters, with little luck. Microsoft
recently challenged an order, which led to the FBI to withdraw the demand
<http://www.zdnet.com/article/microsoft-challenged-an-fbi-national-security-letter-and-won/>
.

In 2008, a US court found the National Security Letter statute, amended by
the Patriot Act in 2001, was unconstitutional.

In a separate case in 2013, the gag order provision was found to be in
breach of the First Amendment
<http://arstechnica.com/tech-policy/2013/03/gagging-recipients-of-national-security-letters-found-unconstitutional/>.
The government appealed the ruling.
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From rysiek at hackerspace.pl  Mon Nov 30 12:54:24 2015
From: rysiek at hackerspace.pl (rysiek)
Date: Mon, 30 Nov 2015 21:54:24 +0100
Subject: Mandatory Access Control ?
In-Reply-To: <565C7D63.2050202@pilobilus.net>
References: <CAOsGNSTjOUT-_qEV3EEYF-+0y3khwcc4xFyzBzGh17=Q7oyxPw@mail.gmail.com>
 <565C15DD.4030502@talkunafraid.co.uk> <565C7D63.2050202@pilobilus.net>
Message-ID: <2326748.eY0dobz3lJ@lapuntu>

Dnia poniedziałek, 30 listopada 2015 11:46:27 Steve Kinney pisze:
> On 11/30/2015 04:24 AM, James Harrison wrote:
> > On 29/11/2015 17:28, c4p0 wrote:
> >> someone can give me your opinion about it?
> > 
> > SELinux on Jessie is a nightmare since there's no maintainers
> > for the refpolicy/MLS packages any more.
> > 
> > AppArmor is probably the way to go, though it's pretty limited
> > in what it can do.
> 
> A feature comparison;
> 
> http://www.cyberciti.biz/tips/selinux-vs-apparmor-vs-grsecurity.html
> 
> Yet another option:  Create your own 'Live DVD' from a shiny new
> security-enhanced OS instance, use encrypted R/W media for data
> file persistence.  Anything that does climb out of its sandbox
> won't persist beyond the current session.
> 
> :o)

Actually, I was thinking of using a doctored SD card for the /boot partition. 
Question is: is it possible to *physically* disable writes on an SD card?

CDs/DVDs are so unwieldy...

-- 
Pozdrawiam,
Michał "rysiek" Woźniak

Zmieniam klucz GPG :: http://rys.io/pl/147
GPG Key Transition :: http://rys.io/en/147
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From rysiek at hackerspace.pl  Mon Nov 30 12:56:06 2015
From: rysiek at hackerspace.pl (rysiek)
Date: Mon, 30 Nov 2015 21:56:06 +0100
Subject: Brief history lesson on Islam - Fwd: ALA Senate candidate Bernard
 Gaynor struts his stuff in a powerful speech.
In-Reply-To: <CAOsGNSQqaWFWVYDCy+NDsNENmF2WodxFC0_GUPNtgprzVG4tzQ@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAOsGNSQqaWFWVYDCy+NDsNENmF2WodxFC0_GUPNtgprzVG4tzQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <2864237.6kcM8u2a4p@lapuntu>

Funny, that.

Sounds eerily similar to what US Republicans (and many Democrats) would say. I 
didn't know you're a fan, Zenaan!

-- 
Pozdrawiam,
Michał "rysiek" Woźniak

Zmieniam klucz GPG :: http://rys.io/pl/147
GPG Key Transition :: http://rys.io/en/147
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From rysiek at hackerspace.pl  Mon Nov 30 13:46:13 2015
From: rysiek at hackerspace.pl (rysiek)
Date: Mon, 30 Nov 2015 22:46:13 +0100
Subject: Mandatory Access Control ?
In-Reply-To: <CAKtE3zfi2QdRYLOFYi7V1ZoSHGRqmLPdWee0oDmQXMiJAUGXpw@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAOsGNSTjOUT-_qEV3EEYF-+0y3khwcc4xFyzBzGh17=Q7oyxPw@mail.gmail.com>
 <2326748.eY0dobz3lJ@lapuntu>
 <CAKtE3zfi2QdRYLOFYi7V1ZoSHGRqmLPdWee0oDmQXMiJAUGXpw@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <1666498.zNSgDRDOGh@lapuntu>

Dnia poniedziałek, 30 listopada 2015 16:08:43 piszesz:
> Except anything that writes to your other hardware, firmwares, BIOS etc...

Yeah, washing one's hands before eating doesn't kill the bacteria in the air, 
I get it. ;)

> R/O is a good idea, though. Just, don't consider it the 'silver bullet'.

I don't. But I would still like to know if it's possible to create a read-only 
SD card.

-- 
Pozdrawiam,
Michał "rysiek" Woźniak

Zmieniam klucz GPG :: http://rys.io/pl/147
GPG Key Transition :: http://rys.io/en/147
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From rysiek at hackerspace.pl  Mon Nov 30 13:56:20 2015
From: rysiek at hackerspace.pl (rysiek)
Date: Mon, 30 Nov 2015 22:56:20 +0100
Subject: Mandatory Access Control ?
In-Reply-To: <CAKtE3zfi2QdRYLOFYi7V1ZoSHGRqmLPdWee0oDmQXMiJAUGXpw@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAOsGNSTjOUT-_qEV3EEYF-+0y3khwcc4xFyzBzGh17=Q7oyxPw@mail.gmail.com>
 <2326748.eY0dobz3lJ@lapuntu>
 <CAKtE3zfi2QdRYLOFYi7V1ZoSHGRqmLPdWee0oDmQXMiJAUGXpw@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <1794291.Y0RHuDZCvW@lapuntu>

Well,

DuckDuckGo to the rescue. Apparently there is no way to physically doctor an 
SD card to become read-only once and for all, but here's *something* at least:
http://hackaday.com/2014/01/18/the-tiniest-sd-card-locker/

It's not good enough (as anybody who has a device like that can make the card 
readable again), but it's an interesting hack nonetheless.

-- 
Pozdrawiam,
Michał "rysiek" Woźniak

Zmieniam klucz GPG :: http://rys.io/pl/147
GPG Key Transition :: http://rys.io/en/147
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From zen at freedbms.net  Mon Nov 30 15:10:25 2015
From: zen at freedbms.net (Zenaan Harkness)
Date: Mon, 30 Nov 2015 23:10:25 +0000
Subject: Brief history lesson on Islam - Fwd: ALA Senate candidate Bernard
 Gaynor struts his stuff in a powerful speech.
In-Reply-To: <565C859B.8010505@riseup.net>
References: <CAOsGNSQqaWFWVYDCy+NDsNENmF2WodxFC0_GUPNtgprzVG4tzQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <565C1AD2.7060305@riseup.net>
 <CAOsGNSS-du2emi8UAiEQtFzcx-zm0FL+Vt8WC3O6svR+UUp9wQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <565C859B.8010505@riseup.net>
Message-ID: <CAOsGNSQA82FzYkixBJABqxUgfh4V=bPiO8SkA7u7gJDdMYwPCQ@mail.gmail.com>

On 11/30/15, Rayzer <Rayzer at riseup.net> wrote:
> Zenaan Harkness wrote:
>> The "Christian" ethic of "turn the other cheek" can be, and I say is,
>> abused.
>
> Is the 'christian ethic of turn the other cheek' even present in the
> oldest version of the new testament. Or is it just as badly butchered as
> every other so-called 'holy book'?

Butchered.

How do people live, what do they believe. Do the majority have a right
to self determination, or should the politicians get the say?

For example direct democracy?

Or will that just produce the tyranny of the majority or the tyranny
of the stupid?

With "democracy" and its reduction to two party system (the
Liberal/Labour of Australia, or Democratic/Republican of America)
things are so corrupt, so despotic, that something has to change.

We have the people we have. And however we might "improve" things, we
have to start with who we are.




From ryacko at gmail.com  Mon Nov 30 23:22:09 2015
From: ryacko at gmail.com (Ryan Carboni)
Date: Mon, 30 Nov 2015 23:22:09 -0800
Subject: DuckDuckGo
Message-ID: <CAO7N=i1Q4Vx5t7CMRRXd-caooMuJ5_1+8qS17GBymiiVK9HgrA@mail.gmail.com>

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Distributed_search_engine

There exists distributed search engines if you are truly paranoid.

Duckduckgo's search model is different yes, but right now Bing is paying me
$5 a month in Amazon gift cards to use their search engine, and Google's
algorithm is amazing.
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From dan at geer.org  Mon Nov 30 21:19:22 2015
From: dan at geer.org (dan at geer.org)
Date: Tue, 01 Dec 2015 00:19:22 -0500
Subject: [cryptography] Paris Attacks Blamed on Strong Cryptography and
 Edward Snowden
In-Reply-To: Your message of "Tue, 17 Nov 2015 14:26:13 -0500."
 <CAD2Ti291h0SUQjqMRctk4RcZ6-ggOWQ1XhSYsJRO=Foymm-uLw@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <20151201051922.87F3DA06D7A@palinka.tinho.net>

In dealing with high level decision makers, the best strategy is
always to provide three options and have the decision maker choose
amongst them.  Taking the American electorate as that high level
decision maker, I would find it refreshing were Brennan to present
said electorate with the choice between [1] content analysis (hence
crypto side doors and the exposure of content), [2] traffic analysis
(hence data retention at a level heretofore unseen and the cataloged
exposure of real social networks), and [3] a willing resolve to tolerate
the occasional terrorist success.  It is a choice amongst losses.

--dan





From rysiek at hackerspace.pl  Mon Nov 30 20:24:20 2015
From: rysiek at hackerspace.pl (rysiek)
Date: Tue, 01 Dec 2015 05:24:20 +0100
Subject: Brief history lesson on Islam - Fwd: ALA Senate candidate Bernard
 Gaynor struts his stuff in a powerful speech.
In-Reply-To: <2864237.6kcM8u2a4p@lapuntu>
References: <CAOsGNSQqaWFWVYDCy+NDsNENmF2WodxFC0_GUPNtgprzVG4tzQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <2864237.6kcM8u2a4p@lapuntu>
Message-ID: <1562493.mEnkJK3xiL@lapuntu>

Dnia poniedziałek, 30 listopada 2015 21:56:06 rysiek pisze:
> Funny, that.
> 
> Sounds eerily similar to what US Republicans (and many Democrats) would say.
> I didn't know you're a fan, Zenaan!

Come to think about it, it's interesting how not long after Russia goes to 
"war against ISIS", you seem to develop a strong islamophobia. :)

-- 
Pozdrawiam,
Michał "rysiek" Woźniak

Zmieniam klucz GPG :: http://rys.io/pl/147
GPG Key Transition :: http://rys.io/en/147
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From rysiek at hackerspace.pl  Mon Nov 30 20:32:05 2015
From: rysiek at hackerspace.pl (rysiek)
Date: Tue, 01 Dec 2015 05:32:05 +0100
Subject: DuckDuckGo
In-Reply-To: <CAN9H=iKNqKwkvKR=5oqj1tCD6GxPciP23i_4kfftgA3gc_QmrQ@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAN9H=iL90S6=xp0xVxv5WrHtncjFHjUjce8HRajY8Nty_HHbnw@mail.gmail.com>
 <565CD682.9040600@riseup.net>
 <CAN9H=iKNqKwkvKR=5oqj1tCD6GxPciP23i_4kfftgA3gc_QmrQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <1469354.LnzHOKxhlb@lapuntu>

Dnia poniedziałek, 30 listopada 2015 15:30:47 Jason McVetta pisze:
> On Mon, Nov 30, 2015 at 3:06 PM, Rayzer <Rayzer at riseup.net> wrote:
> > OBVIOUS honeypot? Why do you say that? There's nothing particularly
> > OBVIOUS about it or someone besides you would notice...
> 
> First of all, DDG's claims of privacy follow the implausible general model
> of "heyyy, just trust us!"

That's true. However, that's still better than Google or Bing, which don't 
even go that far.

Also, I kind of like the fact that the results are not "bubbled" into whatever 
"insights" are gathered from my search history. Now, that is not to say that 
such "insights" are *not* gathered -- they very well might be! -- and I do not 
trust DDG all that much more than Google or Microsoft, but at least I seem to 
be getting search results I need, not the ones that the company thinks I need.

> But there's a historical reason as well.  On the first day DuckDuckGo was
> announced, I did a whois query on duckduckgo.com.  The domain was
> registered to an address in Annapolis, MD.  A small building near the Naval
> Academy.  Not proof of course, but suggestive.

Pics or it didn't happen.

> The whois record was changed soon thereafter.

...first to a big white building in Washington D.C., but that had to be a 
fluke -- as mere minutes later it was a compound in Beghazi; there it staid 
for a couple of months, afterwards moving to the Red Square in Moscow, Russia, 
and then to Langley, Virginia, before finally arriving at the location 
currently visible in WHOIS.

Don't ask me how I know, though.


What I'm trying to say, I guess, is: it would be nice if we had something more 
to work with than just "some guys on the Internets said that for realz the 
WHOIS showed Annapolis."

-- 
Pozdrawiam,
Michał "rysiek" Woźniak

Zmieniam klucz GPG :: http://rys.io/pl/147
GPG Key Transition :: http://rys.io/en/147
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From zen at freedbms.net  Mon Nov 30 22:41:13 2015
From: zen at freedbms.net (Zenaan Harkness)
Date: Tue, 1 Dec 2015 06:41:13 +0000
Subject: Brief history lesson on Islam - Fwd: ALA Senate candidate Bernard
 Gaynor struts his stuff in a powerful speech.
In-Reply-To: <1562493.mEnkJK3xiL@lapuntu>
References: <CAOsGNSQqaWFWVYDCy+NDsNENmF2WodxFC0_GUPNtgprzVG4tzQ@mail.gmail.com>
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On 12/1/15, rysiek <rysiek at hackerspace.pl> wrote:
> Dnia poniedziałek, 30 listopada 2015 21:56:06 rysiek pisze:
>> Funny, that.
>>
>> Sounds eerily similar to what US Republicans (and many Democrats) would
>> say.
>> I didn't know you're a fan, Zenaan!
>
> Come to think about it, it's interesting how not long after Russia goes to
> "war against ISIS", you seem to develop a strong islamophobia. :)

It's a random violence phobia, and my government having no strategy to
handle immigrants who might, or at least those who subsequently do
some random violent act. Random violence done by those born here is
another matter again.

I don't know that it's relevant, but my position goes way back - and
if it were truly relevant I could demonstrate that - but is it? What
is relevant or useful? Perhaps my ability to communicate my position
is (hopefully) improving over time.

Zenaan